From dpuryear@puryear-it.com Tue Jan 5 07:52:23 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o05FqMie008519 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 07:52:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpuryear@puryear-it.com) Received: from mail.puryear-it.com (mail.puryear-it.com [207.29.213.194]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o05FqJlU023682 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 07:52:22 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 09:51:52 -0600 Message-ID: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Failover on Sun Solaris Thread-Index: AcqOHv/2Yx60KyQWRKWoBWKbCqZBlw== From: "Dustin Puryear" To: X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 15:52:23 -0000 Anyone familiar with anything similar to Linux Virtual Server (LVS) or SteelEye LifeKeeper (LK) but with Solaris support? Both LVS and LK provide Linux with failover capabilities and are pretty simple to configure. I'm looking for something similar, but for Solaris. =20 I know that a hardware load-balancer in front of two Solaris boxes will suffice, but we're looking for something that runs on the Solaris boxen. =20 Thoughts? =20 --- Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ =20 Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ =20 =20 From kat@totkat.org Tue Jan 5 08:53:31 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o05GrVFV010610 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 08:53:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kat@totkat.org) Received: from mail-fx0-f212.google.com (mail-fx0-f212.google.com [209.85.220.212]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o05GrRha025397 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 08:53:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm4 with SMTP id 4so13647037fxm.12 for ; Tue, 05 Jan 2010 08:53:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.170.73 with SMTP id r9mr594021hbe.63.1262710401014; Tue, 05 Jan 2010 08:53:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 16:53:20 +0000 Message-ID: <523a2afd1001050853p65ddc9a0k38ad1c58f6e8a128@mail.gmail.com> From: Kate Driskell To: Dustin Puryear Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:53:31 -0000 Sun Cluster (now called Solaris Cluster, I believe)? Support costs an arm and a leg ans Sun insist on validating supportability of the installation, but it works very well if you do have a certified installation. 2010/1/5 Dustin Puryear : > Anyone familiar with anything similar to Linux Virtual Server (LVS) or > SteelEye LifeKeeper (LK) but with Solaris support? Both LVS and LK > provide Linux with failover capabilities and are pretty simple to > configure. I'm looking for something similar, but for Solaris. > > > > I know that a hardware load-balancer in front of two Solaris boxes will > suffice, but we're looking for something that runs on the Solaris boxen. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > --- > Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ > > Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On > Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies > > Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" > http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- http://www.totkat.org/ From treed@copilotco.com Tue Jan 5 10:22:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o05IMWc5014864 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:22:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o05IMTuX027916 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:22:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 6A41F64C80; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:22:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:22:29 -0800 From: Tracy Reed To: Dustin Puryear Message-ID: <20100105182229.GO14231@tracyreed.org> References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NPukt5Otb9an/u20" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 18:22:33 -0000 --NPukt5Otb9an/u20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 05, 2010 at 09:51:52AM -0600, Dustin Puryear spake thusly: > Anyone familiar with anything similar to Linux Virtual Server (LVS) or > SteelEye LifeKeeper (LK) but with Solaris support? Both LVS and LK LVS doesn't care what kind of boxes you put behind it. > provide Linux with failover capabilities and are pretty simple to > configure. I'm looking for something similar, but for Solaris. Why specifically Solaris? You could try Varnish, which claims it can function as a load balancer and seems rather scriptable. I don't know how easy to implement it is as I have only used it as a simple reverse-proxy. > I know that a hardware load-balancer in front of two Solaris boxes will > suffice, but we're looking for something that runs on the Solaris boxen. Your "hardware" load-balancer will most likely be Linux under the hood anyway. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --NPukt5Otb9an/u20 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLQ4Nl9PIYKZYVAq0RAiOcAJwOe8bx042wPCu6CRaVYWYTUtNXVQCfcDW5 Mo3umw9IJV5v339T/spUYF8= =a0G5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NPukt5Otb9an/u20-- From treed@copilotco.com Tue Jan 5 10:23:06 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o05IN6wT014912 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:23:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o05IN3BD027936 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 40A8664C80; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:23:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: Tracy Reed Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:23:03 -0800 Resent-Message-ID: <20100105182303.GP14231@tracyreed.org> Resent-To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:22:29 -0800 From: Tracy Reed To: Dustin Puryear Message-ID: <20100105182229.GO14231@tracyreed.org> References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NPukt5Otb9an/u20" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 10:27:56 -0800 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 18:23:06 -0000 --NPukt5Otb9an/u20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 05, 2010 at 09:51:52AM -0600, Dustin Puryear spake thusly: > Anyone familiar with anything similar to Linux Virtual Server (LVS) or > SteelEye LifeKeeper (LK) but with Solaris support? Both LVS and LK LVS doesn't care what kind of boxes you put behind it. > provide Linux with failover capabilities and are pretty simple to > configure. I'm looking for something similar, but for Solaris. Why specifically Solaris? You could try Varnish, which claims it can function as a load balancer and seems rather scriptable. I don't know how easy to implement it is as I have only used it as a simple reverse-proxy. > I know that a hardware load-balancer in front of two Solaris boxes will > suffice, but we're looking for something that runs on the Solaris boxen. Your "hardware" load-balancer will most likely be Linux under the hood anyway. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --NPukt5Otb9an/u20 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLQ4Nl9PIYKZYVAq0RAiOcAJwOe8bx042wPCu6CRaVYWYTUtNXVQCfcDW5 Mo3umw9IJV5v339T/spUYF8= =a0G5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NPukt5Otb9an/u20-- From sage-list-psa@otoh.org Tue Jan 5 10:37:31 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o05IbVJO015595 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:37:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sage-list-psa@otoh.org) Received: from pmon001.zetta.net (kharon.zetta.net [74.114.124.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o05IbSPw028372 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:37:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from bilby.zetta.net.zetta.net (bilby.zetta.net [10.10.1.16]) by pmon001.zetta.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F90120001BFE; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 18:28:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: by bilby.zetta.net.zetta.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 201E1C5107361; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:28:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:28:42 -0800 From: Paul To: Dustin Puryear Message-ID: <20100105182841.GB18024@zetta.net> References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 18:37:32 -0000 At 2010-01-05T09:51-0600, Dustin Puryear wrote: > Anyone familiar with anything similar to Linux Virtual Server (LVS) or > SteelEye LifeKeeper (LK) but with Solaris support? Both LVS and LK > provide Linux with failover capabilities and are pretty simple to > configure. I'm looking for something similar, but for Solaris. > > I know that a hardware load-balancer in front of two Solaris boxes will > suffice, but we're looking for something that runs on the Solaris boxen. As mentioned, for clustering Solaris Cluster may do what you want. If you need remote data copy (the Linux equivalent is DRBD), then you're probably after AVS http://www.sun.com/storage/management_software/data_protection/availability/features.xml If you're also after a load balancer component, then OpenSolaris build 129 or later has that built in. If you're after a load balancer that runs on Solaris 10 (or earlier), then Balance is your friend: http://www.inlab.de/balance.html Paul From dhanks@gmail.com Tue Jan 5 12:01:06 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o05K16IV018620 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:01:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: from mail-px0-f201.google.com (mail-px0-f201.google.com [209.85.216.201]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o05K13Xq000499 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:01:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by pxi39 with SMTP id 39so12452808pxi.2 for ; Tue, 05 Jan 2010 12:00:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=pXvSDyq8kHIN39XJoM7L2i59wtAQvKKisIHQGjDBTAk=; b=GxL0yjj45Ey/7LNPhFkt8X7MPOyzmACeXT1z7xvmA9BPJHozALLWFja/rCQiHlE5lL ZdWH4k/Lxjql/nzq1Fr3xYxgqBpdizadSZoiSeaXfzCVurYWYsSV/mCOdyOZOzOw3n48 hCda0O56uSdAMjYe5rdLwMSS03hEv3Xje/Tcs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=Yeta6Oiak7xE0T27YvbX24YVFejLKi3fyX2EunxBxeVjYJROQKsbLc4CiotVPheOp7 FXmlUd7OSqeS58K49FNfe4tur0FKUty0ZaYjFM9xrGrauUjxYai4zrTi65gG8au2l71z 65JCufUML8gosB1n1cqLrz492Qz08cTZBzEHk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.114.18 with SMTP id r18mr615028wam.24.1262721658211; Tue, 05 Jan 2010 12:00:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:00:58 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1001051200m2238383wea18bf7f6e4496fa@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: Dustin Puryear X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=19% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 20:01:06 -0000 Doesn't Veritas do this? http://www.symantec.com/business/cluster-server On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 7:51 AM, Dustin Puryear wrote: > Anyone familiar with anything similar to Linux Virtual Server (LVS) or > SteelEye LifeKeeper (LK) but with Solaris support? Both LVS and LK > provide Linux with failover capabilities and are pretty simple to > configure. I'm looking for something similar, but for Solaris. > > > > I know that a hardware load-balancer in front of two Solaris boxes will > suffice, but we're looking for something that runs on the Solaris boxen. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > --- > Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ > > Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On > Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies > > Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" > http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From dhanks@gmail.com Tue Jan 5 12:06:52 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o05K6qlO018723 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:06:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f53.google.com (mail-pw0-f53.google.com [209.85.160.53]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o05K6nNC000647 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:06:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwi18 with SMTP id 18so10411382pwi.12 for ; Tue, 05 Jan 2010 12:06:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=eXoOjljT8zMWF8pq4DDKfaIFkpj1c9bWF45UPvmGS+c=; b=BszQJwXbhP7Ht8AtY79er+0XsmhYSaJ64NxmgC6K/+MsIuumIeefuSutS216zQcmdg nYUHTLPbls7jUbo1wmSnuRFe+dCQ4fM8WziM20FejZK2EndaasMfFmcG/LYCmZBXFhtt lk86JzmHhK3Q5pFY3Mybpsk2qejxc52NnaPAQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=Ll1shBiHwUyOk36EpqijBALVlER7Ho/tB2R7ryFIvr7b41/cQ3sU13kmb3BI36AWMT UlADUspk/zgImYhuP7CqZjv2QaYoWIp2KzI6TJ09ThH9qGMtDeOqCb1Macm+vKeVoTRZ E7W4NG1OkRY3AR4A6JvDDN3+FiFgmYhWI8wwg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.102.16 with SMTP id e16mr1540299wam.202.1262722004538; Tue, 05 Jan 2010 12:06:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:06:44 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1001051206j1422563aic633aec1514c003d@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: Dustin Puryear X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=16% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 20:06:53 -0000 Also - I thought that the SteelEye/Veritas/Clustering software allowed you to create application resource groups, which monitored the application, the hardware and a heart-beat between servers. If anything failed, it would promote a server to take over the application, handle the shutdown/startup scripts, handle redo logs and etc. The main idea is to provide high availability for databases, because the general model is active/passive. A load balancer is more for distributing incoming load across multiple servers in an active/active scenario. I know with F5 you can create pools and create a custom active/passive scenario, but that isn't common. On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 7:51 AM, Dustin Puryear wrote: > Anyone familiar with anything similar to Linux Virtual Server (LVS) or > SteelEye LifeKeeper (LK) but with Solaris support? Both LVS and LK > provide Linux with failover capabilities and are pretty simple to > configure. I'm looking for something similar, but for Solaris. > > > > I know that a hardware load-balancer in front of two Solaris boxes will > suffice, but we're looking for something that runs on the Solaris boxen. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > --- > Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ > > Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On > Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies > > Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" > http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From dpuryear@puryear-it.com Tue Jan 5 12:08:37 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o05K8bd2018778 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:08:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpuryear@puryear-it.com) Received: from mail.puryear-it.com (mail.puryear-it.com [207.29.213.194]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o05K8YFt000705 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:08:37 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 14:08:07 -0600 Message-ID: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E7D@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris Thread-Index: AcqOQpuHv2ElcRbqTJy0vQkKXkECigAABb2Q References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> <82a71f8a1001051206j1422563aic633aec1514c003d@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dustin Puryear" To: "Doug Hanks" X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 20:08:38 -0000 Yes, we're familiar with SteelEye. Actually, I love the LifeKeeper product! Great stuff. It's unfortunate they don't have a build for Solaris. =20 --- Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ =20 From: Doug Hanks [mailto:dhanks@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 2:07 PM To: Dustin Puryear Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris =20 Also - I thought that the SteelEye/Veritas/Clustering software allowed you to create application resource groups, which monitored the application, the hardware and a heart-beat between servers. If anything failed, it would promote a server to take over the application, handle the shutdown/startup scripts, handle redo logs and etc. The main idea is to provide high availability for databases, because the general model is active/passive. A load balancer is more for distributing incoming load across multiple servers in an active/active scenario. I know with F5 you can create pools and create a custom active/passive scenario, but that isn't common. On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 7:51 AM, Dustin Puryear wrote: Anyone familiar with anything similar to Linux Virtual Server (LVS) or SteelEye LifeKeeper (LK) but with Solaris support? Both LVS and LK provide Linux with failover capabilities and are pretty simple to configure. I'm looking for something similar, but for Solaris. I know that a hardware load-balancer in front of two Solaris boxes will suffice, but we're looking for something that runs on the Solaris boxen. Thoughts? --- Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members --=20 - Doug Hanks =3D dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From mark.drummond@empire.ca Tue Jan 5 12:54:12 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o05KsCSe020078 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:54:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark.drummond@empire.ca) Received: from mail2.empire.ca (tmail2.empire.ca [159.18.222.17]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o05Ks83H001646 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:54:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.empire.ca (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78AF39FD49; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 15:47:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from KGNMSG01VS.empire.corp (unknown [159.18.244.10]) by mail2.empire.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D819FD47; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 15:47:31 -0500 (EST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 15:47:29 -0500 Message-ID: <0E954BBB8227E441AFCB021BB102869802886A2C@KGNMSG01VS.empire.corp> In-Reply-To: <523a2afd1001050853p65ddc9a0k38ad1c58f6e8a128@mail.gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris Thread-Index: AcqOKsLF/5J0r9DiTzKJbPsuAp/FiAAHGq3A References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> <523a2afd1001050853p65ddc9a0k38ad1c58f6e8a128@mail.gmail.com> From: "Mark Drummond" To: "Kate Driskell" , "Dustin Puryear" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.3187-6.0.0.1038-17114.001 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: Yes X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o05KsCSe020078 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 20:54:12 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org > [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of > Kate Driskell > Sent: 05 January 2010 11:53 AM > To: Dustin Puryear > Cc: sage-members@usenix.org > Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris > > Sun Cluster (now called Solaris Cluster, I believe)? Support costs an > arm and a leg ans Sun insist on validating supportability of the > installation, but it works very well if you do have a certified > installation. Sun Cluster is 'free' if you don't need support. Support costs depend on the server you intend to run it on. The bigger the server, the higher the support costs. As mentioned, your installation needs to be certified before it can be supported. You can have Sun perform a certified install, or install it yourself and then have them validate your installation. Either way, a certified installation will cost (obviously). http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/cluster/faq.jsp#g3 Open HA Cluster is available if you are moving towards OpenSolaris. http://www.opensolaris.com/learn/features/availability/ Cheers, Mark CONFIDENTIALITY CAUTION: This communication and any attachments is for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, proprietary, confidential and exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of the communication is strictly prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender and destroy this email immediately. AVERTISSEMENT RELATIF À LA CONFIDENTIALITÉ: Cet envoi (et toute pièce jointe) ne s'adresse qu'à la personne ou à l'entité à laquelle il est destiné. Il peut contenir des renseignements privilégiés, confidentiels et ne devant pas être divulgués. 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From dhanks@gmail.com Fri Jan 8 09:46:49 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o08HknBj049316 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 09:46:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: from mail-px0-f201.google.com (mail-px0-f201.google.com [209.85.216.201]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o08HkkW9010431 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 09:46:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by pxi39 with SMTP id 39so14870566pxi.2 for ; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 09:46:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=8c224PRhmHeJ2ZLG6sqKP9mBNZBsgp+yVKzwKjZLXn4=; b=Euz6bpFqsxUBn0Q5QlmYv8HVKN6sDLyAPFprc16Tm8HgnvM8RVS+pfNcuE68oFPIuN HDmIOxS6dmBqIGIZWwYD3f5yb34E2EwZmh9dUGXmsxw5SvCzBW0t/vVtH04i6CgxxCbt 92YOuyNUTTjSHdF/LohRPEvW7u4InmPGvfQHk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=K/lbuWV/SpAaScrsvY9rMkLoxFR94u5CCYwFDlYdUIhjNyO752I8ndWGqqt+9saDXR QHrhdsFrMnQ8IIeF84yuOU8H9svYBvMlI1t91kz1dczolURJzXrpMVkz11Zd02vEZFFQ jg71NwUpVSk49ao/9eyh64f7C2bK+uqDarB5A= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.236.23 with SMTP id j23mr3086985wah.164.1262972801458; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 09:46:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 09:46:41 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: SAGE Members X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=13% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 17:46:50 -0000 Hey guys, How do you usually implement dual NICs? I've seen a lot of different configurations throughout the years. Generally the idea is that the server has two network cards, and each NIC connects to a separate switch. Generally the NICs are configured in an active/passive scenario where the 2nd NIC takes over if the 1st NIC fails or loses link. One idea I was playing with was what if you enabled spanning-tree on the host and create a VLAN interface and assigned that logical interface an IP. Anyone ever tried this? This could also be extended to support 802.1q. Generally sys admins want tons of network cards, to support cluster heart beats, access iSCSI VLAN, and another for general network connectivity. I figured a good solution would be to just support two NICs that support spanning tree and 802.1q. Thoughts? -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From doug@will.to Fri Jan 8 10:46:23 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o08IkMVN050903 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:46:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o08IkJVD004999 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:46:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [149.77.79.216] (psistorm.nyc.deshaw.com [149.77.79.216]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id o08IkFSf032718 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:46:16 -0500 Message-ID: <4B477D76.2010408@will.to> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 13:46:14 -0500 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Hanks References: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0rc3 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Fri, 08 Jan 2010 13:46:16 -0500 (EST) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:46:23 -0000 Doug Hanks wrote: > Hey guys, > > How do you usually implement dual NICs? I've seen a lot of different > configurations throughout the years. > > Generally the idea is that the server has two network cards, and each NIC > connects to a separate switch. > > Generally the NICs are configured in an active/passive scenario where the > 2nd NIC takes over if the 1st NIC fails or loses link. > > One idea I was playing with was what if you enabled spanning-tree on the > host and create a VLAN interface and assigned that logical interface an IP. > Anyone ever tried this? This could also be extended to support 802.1q. > Generally sys admins want tons of network cards, to support cluster heart > beats, access iSCSI VLAN, and another for general network connectivity. I > figured a good solution would be to just support two NICs that support > spanning tree and 802.1q. > > Thoughts? > > You don't want to do spanning tree. You probably want something like IPMP or bonding. Spanning tree will have terrible failover convergence, but bonding will allow you to failover quickly. If both switches are on the same network segment, it's easy, You can have them plugged into your router(s) which are setup with the equivalent of HSRP and you've got redundancy. example: http://linux-ip.net/html/ether-bonding.html From dhanks@gmail.com Fri Jan 8 11:02:57 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o08J2vEl051304 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:02:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f195.google.com (mail-pz0-f195.google.com [209.85.222.195]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o08J2rfO013579 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:02:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by pzk33 with SMTP id 33so5260344pzk.2 for ; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 11:02:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=pF4DerXRZmKnf9w1HqlTzltjKRruQ1UeNF4QMzFKj7Y=; b=INgoPHZKCV4uy8vZKXFVRlDU3A0bHfy81/iWOAeR6IhbMpRJzdkmSzRkh6/RaO9pxC WQQeXwSrL6xmXqcNd3TV0RRSc7g/oenPDItD9U7ihF3Vvyalm/2TOF2VezT4vrnjItjm Z6cRKvwc3+QbZ2QT97aQTcx9181655IRt6eZI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=bV6Q4CMmw63AfmYzVpdADcGCMtbEe9Fe/FK5B7PWEgx8ba2QGpl41+QKrPAsBU7nGc KLJEsEBnCdINaBfKFQPJ//lloc8hK/mpOc1A8bpPmqL22lO1fZ0QTJFaxGN5Ck9J8rHq /U0TXCgWZDIc1PF9A/ameCmxSGgipXAXY908Y= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.105.15 with SMTP id d15mr11614570wac.18.1262977364780; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 11:02:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <3190526A-E6A8-49D7-9286-5BC741AA2C1B@acm.org> References: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> <3190526A-E6A8-49D7-9286-5BC741AA2C1B@acm.org> Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:02:44 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: "Mark R. Lindsey" X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=19% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 19:02:57 -0000 I'm getting a lot of good feedback. I've seen all of the below methods and I agree as well. Some of the most reliable designs have been with bonding or virtual IP. I would never enable or rely on spanning tree past the access point - would cause way too many problems. However I do like the idea of VLAN tagging to reduce the number of required network cards. Have you seen any bonding or virtual IP designs that use 802.1q? On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Mark R. Lindsey wrote: > There are four popular approaches that I see for implementing redundant > physical network interfaces on a host. > > 1. Virtual IP. > > The "Virtual IP" is a real IP address that's used by the *service*, such as > SMTP, DNS, or SIP. It's "Virtual" in the sense that it's not statically > assigned to a physical interface. > > In the most fully-featured designs, both interfaces are active > simultaneously. Each interface has a utility IP address that is different > from the virtual IP. Each interface has a utility MAC address, but there's > also a virtual MAC address. An interface is assigned to be active, and it > uses both the virtual IP with the virtual MAC; it simultaneously retains its > utility IP and utility MAC. Using the utility IP and utility MAC address on > BOTH interfaces, the host regularly polls the local gateway with ARP > requests, or ICMP pings, to verify connectivity. If the active interface > fails to get a response to the ARP request or the ICMP ping, then the host > may move the virtual IP and virtual MAC address to the other interface, then > broadcast a gratuitous ARP for the virtual IP and virtual MAC. This > gratuitous ARP serves to update the layer-2 > mac-address-to-ethernet-switch-port tables. > > Acme Packet has an excellent implementation of this on their Net-Net SD > platform used for VoIP call security. The Solaris IP Multipathing can be > setup like this. The standard Linux "bond" kernel driver implements also > most of these features. The Cisco ASA/Pix software does something a lot like > this as well. I believe Windows server has something like this too. > > Unfortunately, some implementations detect only link-state failures, so > they cannot detect when the link stays up but the Ethernet broadcast domain > is partitioned. E.g., if you mis-assign the VLAN on a switch port, the link > stays up but the port does you no good. > > Further, this model typically doesn't provide for load balancing. The > virtual MAC address is routed, by the upstream ethernet switch, to exactly > one port at a time. > > 2. Routing protocol. > > There are systems that use standard ethernet, but each Ethernet link is a > /30 point-to-point network. Then the service IP address is advertised via > OSPF through each of those point-to-point links. This requires > routing-protocol support through the connected network; it works if each of > your Ethernet links is directly connected to an OSPF-capable router. > > Nortel is the only vendor I've seen using this lately. > > 3. Link bonding (802.3ad / LACP). > > In this model, you use LACP to bond two Ethernet links together into one > virtualized Ethernet link. Then in the OS you configure that one Ethernet > link as usual. You're depending on LACP fault detection to take a link > offline in the case of a fault. > > This requires the host be connected to an LACP-capable Ethernet switch. > > 4. Multiple IP addresses. > > Each Ethernet interface is connected independently, with its own IP > address. Then application support, with DNS, can be used to choose an > interface or to fail over to the other address. The difficult thing is > getting predictable application failover support; e.g., for a web server, > you need the web browser to attempt to re-connect to the other IP address in > the case of a fault. > > This pushes the interface fault-tolerance problem up to a higher layer than > the other three approaches -- possibly too high. I'm all for "Implement > things at the highest layer possible," as Linus Torvalds has said. "...but > no higher". > > However, using multiple IP addresses is typically the approach taken if > your services are geographically distributed. E.g., if one web server is in > NYC, and the other is in Chicago, then it can be quite expensive to put the > same IP address on each server. It's possible if you own enough of the > network; consider 4.2.2.2, apparently in use by numerous "independent" > Level(3) DNS servers. > > ------------------- > > To your proposal: I suspect that LACP would get you closer than spanning > tree, for your stated goals. > > > > > > > > On Jan 8, 2010, at 12:46 PM, Doug Hanks wrote: > > Hey guys, >> >> How do you usually implement dual NICs? I've seen a lot of different >> configurations throughout the years. >> >> Generally the idea is that the server has two network cards, and each NIC >> connects to a separate switch. >> >> Generally the NICs are configured in an active/passive scenario where the >> 2nd NIC takes over if the 1st NIC fails or loses link. >> >> One idea I was playing with was what if you enabled spanning-tree on the >> host and create a VLAN interface and assigned that logical interface an >> IP. >> Anyone ever tried this? This could also be extended to support 802.1q. >> Generally sys admins want tons of network cards, to support cluster heart >> beats, access iSCSI VLAN, and another for general network connectivity. I >> figured a good solution would be to just support two NICs that support >> spanning tree and 802.1q. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> -- >> - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> > > -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From lindsey@acm.org Fri Jan 8 11:17:36 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o08JHas9051511 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:17:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lindsey@acm.org) Received: from e-c-group.com (mail.ispsouth.com [216.128.192.248]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o08JHVfk020105 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:17:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [24.172.251.167] (account lindsey HELO [172.24.127.60]) by e-c-group.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.13) with ESMTPSA id 127396843; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 13:47:26 -0500 Message-Id: <3190526A-E6A8-49D7-9286-5BC741AA2C1B@acm.org> From: "Mark R. Lindsey" To: Doug Hanks In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:47:26 -0500 References: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=0 Fuz1=0 Fuz2=0 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 19:17:36 -0000 There are four popular approaches that I see for implementing redundant physical network interfaces on a host. 1. Virtual IP. The "Virtual IP" is a real IP address that's used by the *service*, such as SMTP, DNS, or SIP. It's "Virtual" in the sense that it's not statically assigned to a physical interface. In the most fully-featured designs, both interfaces are active simultaneously. Each interface has a utility IP address that is different from the virtual IP. Each interface has a utility MAC address, but there's also a virtual MAC address. An interface is assigned to be active, and it uses both the virtual IP with the virtual MAC; it simultaneously retains its utility IP and utility MAC. Using the utility IP and utility MAC address on BOTH interfaces, the host regularly polls the local gateway with ARP requests, or ICMP pings, to verify connectivity. If the active interface fails to get a response to the ARP request or the ICMP ping, then the host may move the virtual IP and virtual MAC address to the other interface, then broadcast a gratuitous ARP for the virtual IP and virtual MAC. This gratuitous ARP serves to update the layer-2 mac-address-to-ethernet- switch-port tables. Acme Packet has an excellent implementation of this on their Net-Net SD platform used for VoIP call security. The Solaris IP Multipathing can be setup like this. The standard Linux "bond" kernel driver implements also most of these features. The Cisco ASA/Pix software does something a lot like this as well. I believe Windows server has something like this too. Unfortunately, some implementations detect only link-state failures, so they cannot detect when the link stays up but the Ethernet broadcast domain is partitioned. E.g., if you mis-assign the VLAN on a switch port, the link stays up but the port does you no good. Further, this model typically doesn't provide for load balancing. The virtual MAC address is routed, by the upstream ethernet switch, to exactly one port at a time. 2. Routing protocol. There are systems that use standard ethernet, but each Ethernet link is a /30 point-to-point network. Then the service IP address is advertised via OSPF through each of those point-to-point links. This requires routing-protocol support through the connected network; it works if each of your Ethernet links is directly connected to an OSPF- capable router. Nortel is the only vendor I've seen using this lately. 3. Link bonding (802.3ad / LACP). In this model, you use LACP to bond two Ethernet links together into one virtualized Ethernet link. Then in the OS you configure that one Ethernet link as usual. You're depending on LACP fault detection to take a link offline in the case of a fault. This requires the host be connected to an LACP-capable Ethernet switch. 4. Multiple IP addresses. Each Ethernet interface is connected independently, with its own IP address. Then application support, with DNS, can be used to choose an interface or to fail over to the other address. The difficult thing is getting predictable application failover support; e.g., for a web server, you need the web browser to attempt to re-connect to the other IP address in the case of a fault. This pushes the interface fault-tolerance problem up to a higher layer than the other three approaches -- possibly too high. I'm all for "Implement things at the highest layer possible," as Linus Torvalds has said. "...but no higher". However, using multiple IP addresses is typically the approach taken if your services are geographically distributed. E.g., if one web server is in NYC, and the other is in Chicago, then it can be quite expensive to put the same IP address on each server. It's possible if you own enough of the network; consider 4.2.2.2, apparently in use by numerous "independent" Level(3) DNS servers. ------------------- To your proposal: I suspect that LACP would get you closer than spanning tree, for your stated goals. On Jan 8, 2010, at 12:46 PM, Doug Hanks wrote: > Hey guys, > > How do you usually implement dual NICs? I've seen a lot of different > configurations throughout the years. > > Generally the idea is that the server has two network cards, and > each NIC > connects to a separate switch. > > Generally the NICs are configured in an active/passive scenario > where the > 2nd NIC takes over if the 1st NIC fails or loses link. > > One idea I was playing with was what if you enabled spanning-tree on > the > host and create a VLAN interface and assigned that logical interface > an IP. > Anyone ever tried this? This could also be extended to support > 802.1q. > Generally sys admins want tons of network cards, to support cluster > heart > beats, access iSCSI VLAN, and another for general network > connectivity. I > figured a good solution would be to just support two NICs that support > spanning tree and 802.1q. > > Thoughts? > > -- > - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From lindsey@acm.org Fri Jan 8 11:40:51 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o08JepTh051799 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:40:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lindsey@acm.org) Received: from e-c-group.com (mail.ispsouth.com [216.128.192.248]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o08JelOf000380 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:40:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [24.172.251.167] (account lindsey HELO [172.24.127.60]) by e-c-group.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.13) with ESMTPSA id 127397259; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 14:10:44 -0500 Message-Id: From: "Mark R. Lindsey" To: Doug Hanks In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:10:44 -0500 References: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> <3190526A-E6A8-49D7-9286-5BC741AA2C1B@acm.org> <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 19:40:51 -0000 On Jan 8, 2010, at 2:02 PM, Doug Hanks wrote: > Have you seen any bonding or virtual IP designs that use 802.1q? At a high level, you can readily mix bonding and 802.1q. All the frames have an 802.1q header, and every IP address is assigned with a VLAN tag attached. But it doesn't change anything else fundamental. In Linux with the bond driver, it's really easy. From mike.diehn@gmail.com Fri Jan 8 11:59:28 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o08JxSkt052178 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:59:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike.diehn@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw0-f173.google.com (mail-yw0-f173.google.com [209.85.211.173]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o08JxOJd009512 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:59:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by ywh3 with SMTP id 3so19275626ywh.22 for ; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 11:59:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; bh=rSPZ1t7DoOdScQh8EItHKPz0h2mTJ1fopE2zk7fkEfA=; b=abnfoV337P7kuZyVEisJ0f0z90kk4mtJY64/szXPo7s1WkraK6vDJ3xDMQSsNuFmak nqIsASenWZYaS63GzV20bLG9kCE6dFjWT8Hdn5lnxnVferCsptnMSa/BMtI7KvnJ1yOm br6+hODNHsdPRfBF7RkYmZCMWUm+ky28NgDQw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=j3A6T2RVJBhfsQzrYmKIbdn+6dbeBGeVTvVDaRjEClOwBhXHwh7Mn+J0HvU9dTeX73 /2n5+WSFR1oNlcY81Z+xmIE+vgD7kz+u58w3kY9qxp8EaTm7q8mpVY7tbp66PTk38c35 s6U64h8V13nMg6aff8zYizoF1qIcJYdmNfTLc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mike.diehn@gmail.com Received: by 10.150.127.4 with SMTP id z4mr771684ybc.37.1262980759113; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 11:59:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> References: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> <3190526A-E6A8-49D7-9286-5BC741AA2C1B@acm.org> <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> From: Mike Diehn Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:58:59 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: f5f36fcb2687b4cc Message-ID: <2a03c5ff1001081158y36d45907qe7f4203c9044a9af@mail.gmail.com> To: Doug Hanks X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 19:59:28 -0000 Have any experience with "heartbeat?" AKA Pacemaker? It's an open source HA software package, usually used to make an active/passive "cluster" of two servers. Seems to me you could use it to switch a service IP from one interface to another on one server, though. Mike On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Doug Hanks wrote: > I'm getting a lot of good feedback. > > I've seen all of the below methods and I agree as well. Some of the most > reliable designs have been with bonding or virtual IP. > > I would never enable or rely on spanning tree past the access point - would > cause way too many problems. > > However I do like the idea of VLAN tagging to reduce the number of required > network cards. > > Have you seen any bonding or virtual IP designs that use 802.1q? > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Mark R. Lindsey wrote: > > > There are four popular approaches that I see for implementing redundant > > physical network interfaces on a host. > > > > 1. Virtual IP. > > > > The "Virtual IP" is a real IP address that's used by the *service*, such > as > > SMTP, DNS, or SIP. It's "Virtual" in the sense that it's not statically > > assigned to a physical interface. > > > > In the most fully-featured designs, both interfaces are active > > simultaneously. Each interface has a utility IP address that is different > > from the virtual IP. Each interface has a utility MAC address, but > there's > > also a virtual MAC address. An interface is assigned to be active, and it > > uses both the virtual IP with the virtual MAC; it simultaneously retains > its > > utility IP and utility MAC. Using the utility IP and utility MAC address > on > > BOTH interfaces, the host regularly polls the local gateway with ARP > > requests, or ICMP pings, to verify connectivity. If the active interface > > fails to get a response to the ARP request or the ICMP ping, then the > host > > may move the virtual IP and virtual MAC address to the other interface, > then > > broadcast a gratuitous ARP for the virtual IP and virtual MAC. This > > gratuitous ARP serves to update the layer-2 > > mac-address-to-ethernet-switch-port tables. > > > > Acme Packet has an excellent implementation of this on their Net-Net SD > > platform used for VoIP call security. The Solaris IP Multipathing can be > > setup like this. The standard Linux "bond" kernel driver implements also > > most of these features. The Cisco ASA/Pix software does something a lot > like > > this as well. I believe Windows server has something like this too. > > > > Unfortunately, some implementations detect only link-state failures, so > > they cannot detect when the link stays up but the Ethernet broadcast > domain > > is partitioned. E.g., if you mis-assign the VLAN on a switch port, the > link > > stays up but the port does you no good. > > > > Further, this model typically doesn't provide for load balancing. The > > virtual MAC address is routed, by the upstream ethernet switch, to > exactly > > one port at a time. > > > > 2. Routing protocol. > > > > There are systems that use standard ethernet, but each Ethernet link is a > > /30 point-to-point network. Then the service IP address is advertised via > > OSPF through each of those point-to-point links. This requires > > routing-protocol support through the connected network; it works if each > of > > your Ethernet links is directly connected to an OSPF-capable router. > > > > Nortel is the only vendor I've seen using this lately. > > > > 3. Link bonding (802.3ad / LACP). > > > > In this model, you use LACP to bond two Ethernet links together into one > > virtualized Ethernet link. Then in the OS you configure that one Ethernet > > link as usual. You're depending on LACP fault detection to take a link > > offline in the case of a fault. > > > > This requires the host be connected to an LACP-capable Ethernet switch. > > > > 4. Multiple IP addresses. > > > > Each Ethernet interface is connected independently, with its own IP > > address. Then application support, with DNS, can be used to choose an > > interface or to fail over to the other address. The difficult thing is > > getting predictable application failover support; e.g., for a web server, > > you need the web browser to attempt to re-connect to the other IP address > in > > the case of a fault. > > > > This pushes the interface fault-tolerance problem up to a higher layer > than > > the other three approaches -- possibly too high. I'm all for "Implement > > things at the highest layer possible," as Linus Torvalds has said. > "...but > > no higher". > > > > However, using multiple IP addresses is typically the approach taken if > > your services are geographically distributed. E.g., if one web server is > in > > NYC, and the other is in Chicago, then it can be quite expensive to put > the > > same IP address on each server. It's possible if you own enough of the > > network; consider 4.2.2.2, apparently in use by numerous "independent" > > Level(3) DNS servers. > > > > ------------------- > > > > To your proposal: I suspect that LACP would get you closer than spanning > > tree, for your stated goals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 8, 2010, at 12:46 PM, Doug Hanks wrote: > > > > Hey guys, > >> > >> How do you usually implement dual NICs? I've seen a lot of different > >> configurations throughout the years. > >> > >> Generally the idea is that the server has two network cards, and each > NIC > >> connects to a separate switch. > >> > >> Generally the NICs are configured in an active/passive scenario where > the > >> 2nd NIC takes over if the 1st NIC fails or loses link. > >> > >> One idea I was playing with was what if you enabled spanning-tree on the > >> host and create a VLAN interface and assigned that logical interface an > >> IP. > >> Anyone ever tried this? This could also be extended to support 802.1q. > >> Generally sys admins want tons of network cards, to support cluster > heart > >> beats, access iSCSI VLAN, and another for general network connectivity. > I > >> figured a good solution would be to just support two NICs that support > >> spanning tree and 802.1q. > >> > >> Thoughts? > >> > >> -- > >> - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com > >> _______________________________________________ > >> sage-members mailing list > >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org > >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > >> > > > > > > > -- > - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- Mike Diehn Diehn Consulting, LLC mike.diehn@gmail.com From sjohnson@monsters.org Fri Jan 8 14:35:03 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o08MZ3Gq058691 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:35:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sjohnson@monsters.org) Received: from mothra.monsters.org (adsl-208-191-248-5.dsl.ltrkar.swbell.net [208.191.248.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o08MYxwQ025708 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:35:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.13.13.201] ([170.94.139.93]) (authenticated bits=0) by mothra.monsters.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o08M3nj2011849 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 16:03:51 -0600 From: Stephen Johnson To: SAGE Members X-Mailer: Modest 3.0 References: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> <3190526A-E6A8-49D7-9286-5BC741AA2C1B@acm.org> <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> <2a03c5ff1001081158y36d45907qe7f4203c9044a9af@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2a03c5ff1001081158y36d45907qe7f4203c9044a9af@mail.gmail.com> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 16:03:47 -0600 Message-Id: <1262988227.4038.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Stephen Johnson List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 22:35:03 -0000 ----- Original message ----- > Have any experience with "heartbeat?"  AKA Pacemaker?  It's an open source > HA software package, usually used to make an active/passive "cluster" of two > servers.  Seems to me you could use it to switch a service IP from one > interface to another on one server, though. We use heartbeat on our Enterprise FTP server at work. It's an active/standby 2 node cluster. Heartbeat works extremly well. Takeover of the standby node is under a well under a second (for FTP process, virtual IP address and SAN storage LUN as cluster managed resouces ). From sage-list-psa@otoh.org Fri Jan 8 14:52:47 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o08Mqlf0059194 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:52:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sage-list-psa@otoh.org) Received: from pmon001.zetta.net (kharon.zetta.net [74.114.124.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o08MqipP025974 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:52:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from bilby.zetta.net.zetta.net (bilby.zetta.net [10.10.1.16]) by pmon001.zetta.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BED0720001BE8; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 22:52:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: by bilby.zetta.net.zetta.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 36C15C5069DF0; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:52:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:52:28 -0800 From: Paul To: Mike Diehn Message-ID: <20100108225228.GD17319@zetta.net> References: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> <3190526A-E6A8-49D7-9286-5BC741AA2C1B@acm.org> <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> <2a03c5ff1001081158y36d45907qe7f4203c9044a9af@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2a03c5ff1001081158y36d45907qe7f4203c9044a9af@mail.gmail.com> X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 22:52:48 -0000 At 2010-01-08T14:58-0500, Mike Diehn wrote: > Have any experience with "heartbeat?" AKA Pacemaker? It's an open source > HA software package, usually used to make an active/passive "cluster" of two > servers. Seems to me you could use it to switch a service IP from one > interface to another on one server, though. We're using it (heartbeat 2.1.3) and have no end of trouble with it. Goes crazy and chews up 100% CPU, doesn't failover cleanly (fails to take over the resource when the current primary panics) and a variety of other things. And all we're doing is moving one IP address between Xen hosts, nothing complicated. I've heard others saying they've had great luck with it, but it's been only marginally better than having no failover at all for me (and some weeks, less than that). Paul From brent@netomata.com Fri Jan 8 16:26:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o090Q8JV061185 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 16:26:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brent@netomata.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f53.google.com (mail-pw0-f53.google.com [209.85.160.53]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o090Q5qB027543 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 16:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwi18 with SMTP id 18so337788pwi.12 for ; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 16:26:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.141.214.27 with SMTP id r27mr7135423rvq.286.1262996760417; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 16:26:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> References: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> <3190526A-E6A8-49D7-9286-5BC741AA2C1B@acm.org> <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 16:26:00 -0800 Message-ID: From: Brent Chapman To: Doug Hanks X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=15% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 00:26:09 -0000 On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Doug Hanks wrote: > However I do like the idea of VLAN tagging to reduce the number of required > network cards. > > Have you seen any bonding or virtual IP designs that use 802.1q? > > Yes, I've implemented such designs. Works fine. Here's a blog entry that I wrote about setting up VLAN trunks (which uses 802.1q to talk to the switch) over bonded NIC cards, with each NIC connected to a different switch. In this blog entry, I was setting this up on a Xen dom0, so that I could attach individual Xen clients "directly" to particular VLANs; the underlying server (dom0) could access all the VLANs directly, though, simply by creating a "bond0.NNN" interface, where NNN was the relevant VLAN ID. http://www.netomata.com/blog/brent_chapman/2009/02/25/36 As shown in the blog entry, the interesting parts of setting up the bond0 interface are in the "iface bond0 ..." section of the /etc/network/interfaces file: auto bond0 iface bond0 inet manual slaves eth0 eth1 # It's important to use active-backup mode when you've got 2 separate # upstream switches. The various other bonding modes only work when # you're connecting to the SAME upstream switch; they are useful for # increasing bandwidth, but not for failover protection against an # upstream switch failure (or local interface failure, cabling failure, # and the like). bond_mode active-backup # "bond_miimon 100" checks the CARRIER status of the physical # interfaces every 100ms, and switches from the primary to the # backup interface if the carrier fails. So, if the upstream # switch hangs but doesn't drop carrier, you're screwed, because # bond_miimon won't detect that. bond_miimon 100 # Given that bond_miimon won't detect certain upstream switch # failures, it might seem like you want to use bond_arp_ip_target # monitoring instead, which purports to make sure you can actually # move traffic by sending ARP requests and looking for replies. # Unfortunately, in this configuration, the bond0 interface doesn't # actually have an IP address (the vlanNN VLAN bridges that are # established below do, but not the bond0 interface itself), so # the ARP requests/replies won't work and you can't use # bond_arp_ip_target. # bond_arp_ip_target 10.5.1.2 10.5.16.3 # bond_arp_interval 100 As the comments explain, in this particular sample configuration, the underlying bond0 interface does _not_ have an IP address of its own, and without that, cannot use the bond_arp_ip_target method to detect upstream switch failure. This example instead has to rely on the bond_miimon method, which only detects switch failures if the switch drops carrier on the physical link (i.e., if the switch freezes up and stops moving packets but doesn't drop carrier, the switch failure is NOT detected). If you assign an IP address to the bond0 interface itself (on the trunk's "native" VLAN, which is usually VLAN 1), then you can use the bond_arp_ip_target method (and related bond_arp_interval parameter) instead of the bond_miimon method. The IP addresses you specify in the bond_arp_ip_target line need to be each switch's address on the same "native" VLAN of the trunk. The server will send an ARP request for each of those addresses every 100ms (assuming "bond_arp_interval 100", as show above); as long as each switch keeps responding to those ARP requests (which is a decent indication that the switch is "up" enough to be passing traffic), the failover mechanism treats the switch as "still alive". -Brent -- Brent Chapman Netomata, Inc. -- www.netomata.com Making networks more cost-effective, reliable, and flexible by automating network configuration From bryanf@samurai.com Fri Jan 8 22:15:52 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o096FpnL070150 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 22:15:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bryanf@samurai.com) Received: from st01.samurai.com (st01.samurai.com [216.235.14.52]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o096FmTq002902 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 22:15:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from h216-235-8-77.host.egate.net ([216.235.8.77] helo=[192.168.2.15]) by st01.samurai.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NTUbu-000OXN-H8 for sage-members@usenix.org; Sat, 09 Jan 2010 01:15:42 -0500 Message-ID: <4B481F0F.4030008@samurai.com> Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 01:15:43 -0500 From: Bryan Fullerton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091204 Thunderbird/3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members References: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> <3190526A-E6A8-49D7-9286-5BC741AA2C1B@acm.org> <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> <2a03c5ff1001081158y36d45907qe7f4203c9044a9af@mail.gmail.com> <1262988227.4038.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1262988227.4038.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus-Scanner: Clean mail though you should still use an Antivirus X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 06:15:52 -0000 On 08/01/2010 5:03 PM, Stephen Johnson wrote: > ----- Original message ----- > >> Have any experience with "heartbeat?" AKA Pacemaker? It's an open source >> HA software package, usually used to make an active/passive "cluster" of two >> servers. Seems to me you could use it to switch a service IP from one >> interface to another on one server, though. >> > We use heartbeat on our Enterprise FTP server at work. It's an active/standby 2 node cluster. Heartbeat works extremly well. Takeover of the standby node is under a well under a second (for FTP process, virtual IP address and SAN storage LUN as cluster managed resouces ). > We've had similar experience at $work, we very successfully replaced a Windows 2003 box and warm standby with an active/standby heartbeat-2 cluster on Ubuntu. It serves several million static media assets (images, video files) from an iSCSI backend to Akamai for our hosting clients. Heartbeat-2 moves the service IP, services, and iSCSI mounts quickly and cleanly. I have a half-written blog post about our setup that I need to finish someday. Bryan From jrmailgate-sage@yahoo.co.uk Mon Jan 11 02:56:15 2010 Received: from web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com (web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com [87.248.114.231]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id o0BAuEcf059258 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 02:56:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrmailgate-sage@yahoo.co.uk) Received: (qmail 6651 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2010 10:56:08 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1263207368; bh=6TIDipehvdfmeFkGE8h/C66cdRExmKZHnzu8ENc/97I=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=UguWLfaksRY5care6NLnHvklHR04kN57Jxo2GWD0RlLVDeLnfCgArvdywqDdcQ6Jj6rkyEFdvYdDrghDqWL89kui4mC5jXJY0MyX+dmmUFQjyqJJcPgyPGVL54brhpSbdAEmDTamn1fpkxFh8SLuuMinEtu/+p6K6OPOGSUO0Uc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=dXrRuqicXre5kJad5ABOsrmNuMjC1zPhhBWWPJ/EahkVZAZXFVlTba2mVwL4vA/MsNRVpHMWepYqtI5f8bSZhTWxaCZaMJCZrD8GzICvq6atnzEbIvsCH0cGU6SfSU5+4pUP9MwOxiCKBqax16GvjmX9SL3rTT4bHlREiKjVpZ8=; Message-ID: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: Hr.ZyMAVM1mTX2txSz1e5fxGOARxRGqpvIROTDICjnn.kNXHnZeoQZx7cOOc8RgVeOCv7rn9G0krykoim8ckpmztKsMIJzA_d_Nvz4lowH0XMpn8NH5cuif5bOKamoocwgmYCcn9CKmxNh4uON9Csz2gUMvVkdlhSIxzATBbyI7F4sIx8Xlms4.AS4TuHqh0iawt_OgvNvZVmAVsMK3PrKyAZlkkI4U- Received: from [194.70.246.1] by web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:56:08 GMT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/240.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:56:08 +0000 (GMT) From: Julian Regel To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:56:16 -0000 Hi=0A=0AI'm looking for a way to backup a Solaris ZFS filesystem to tape.= =0A=0AMy current thinking is to take a snapshot and perform a "zfs send" to= the tape device:=0A=0A# zfs send tank/home@monday > /dev/rmt/0cn=0A=0AThe = problem here is that if the snapshot is greater than the capacity of a sing= le tape, the backup will fail.=0A=0ADoes anyone have any suggestions on com= mands that handle multiple volumes (similar to ufsdump, but that will work = with any datastream and not the UFS strucuture)?=0A=0AI'm hoping I'm missin= g something really trivial, but at the moment, the inability to backup a ZF= S filesystem to a tape library is a showstopper for us.=0A=0AAn alternative= question (but hopefully with the same answer), for ZFS users, how are you = backing up to tape (if you are)?=0A=0AThanks for any advice.=0A=0AJR=0A=0A= =0A=0A From sraspet@gmail.com Mon Jan 11 06:15:17 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f220.google.com (mail-fx0-f220.google.com [209.85.220.220]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0BEFGfZ066090 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 06:15:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sraspet@gmail.com) Received: by fxm20 with SMTP id 20so20643238fxm.35 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 06:15:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=wrNWi/Ca/VA/JKxpf59UKf/Gn3MG3MJHq+AU5ZWsnCo=; b=RDqd3uw0EBWGw2Ul6pw7KC68miIvJbwYlod8cM5id39Qd/uDp0S7KD/M/SKTEusEwA 6dnlaufvqsZM1Z7BH8aIQKWCF2qzBZdGTVq2GU9yA4pXNYcSPKIUdMUONqHJ0fyfV0wj 0C5r0K4IkPTiy0cf80jxVbImqmupLjHD/ZOHQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=b3xc95mhWg1585RhFdgPm1ciBoUwS1LN4GST2Qy9/5xPpBJ1x0VOgHG1J7NEBX9jIO rLieVahB0Kws/sdK/3atIevxDZFXR1+MgYkNzHH9RCn/EPrvJWkqCkfPr79dxV2HOO9O xHouIk9m3SpusFMiGm6NHe1V1a1djeuozSD/Q= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.199.199 with SMTP id i7mr650002hbj.204.1263219309842; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 06:15:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 09:15:09 -0500 Message-ID: From: Sunny Raspet To: Julian Regel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 14:15:17 -0000 > My current thinking is to take a snapshot and perform a "zfs send" to the tape device: > > # zfs send tank/home@monday > /dev/rmt/0cn > > The problem here is that if the snapshot is greater than the capacity of a single tape, the backup will fail. > > Does anyone have any suggestions on commands that handle multiple volumes (similar to ufsdump, but that will work with any datastream and not the UFS strucuture)? Caveat emptor: At my current site, we a) use $EXPENSIVE_FILESYSTEM_PRODUCT instead of ZFS, and b) use $EXPENSIVE_BACKUP_PRODUCT instead of homegrown solutions. However: is there any reason you can't take a snapshot and dump it into cpio (which of course has multi-volume support?) -slr From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Mon Jan 11 08:18:22 2010 Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0BGIM1b070213 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:18:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o0BGIGg6000833; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:18:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:18:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <14453.207.61.230.154.1263226696.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:18:16 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Julian Regel" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 16:18:23 -0000 On Mon, January 11, 2010 05:56, Julian Regel wrote: > I'm looking for a way to backup a Solaris ZFS filesystem to tape. > > My current thinking is to take a snapshot and perform a "zfs send" to the > tape device: > > # zfs send tank/home@monday > /dev/rmt/0cn This is not recommended by Sun and the ZFS Team, as there is currently no guarantee that the 'zfs send' stream will will be forward- or backward-compatible. This has been discussed on the zfs-discuss list often: http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss [...] > An alternative question (but hopefully with the same answer), for ZFS > users, how are you backing up to tape (if you are)? NetWorker, NetBackup, AMANDA, Bacula, etc., are options. At $WORK we're currently using NetWorker (pre-acquisition) but are transitioning to NetBackup (new corporate standard post-acquisition). Using {s,g}tar/cpio on the snapshot as mentioned in another message is certainly an option. From lyndon@orthanc.ca Mon Jan 11 10:11:04 2010 Received: from orthanc.ca (orthanc.ca [208.86.224.138]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0BIB3a3074559 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:11:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lyndon@orthanc.ca) Received: from orthanc.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orthanc.ca (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o0BIB2ix046726 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:11:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lyndon@orthanc.ca) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by orthanc.ca (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with UUCP id o0BIB2Es046725; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:11:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lyndon@orthanc.ca) Received: from legolas.yyc.orthanc.ca (legolas.yyc.orthanc.ca [172.16.0.4]) (authenticated bits=0) by legolas.yyc.orthanc.ca (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o0BIB0C2002407 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:11:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lyndon@orthanc.ca) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:11:00 -0700 (MST) From: Lyndon Nerenberg X-X-Sender: lyndon@legolas.yyc.orthanc.ca To: Julian Regel In-Reply-To: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Organization: The Frobozz Magic Homing Pigeon Company MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:11:05 -0000 > Does anyone have any suggestions on commands that handle multiple > volumes (similar to ufsdump, but that will work with any datastream and > not the UFS strucuture)? A relatively simple solution would be to build a dedicated dump host. Send the output of your dumps (of whatever format) to the dumphost, and use something like Amanda to manage writing the data to tape. A relatively generic x86 or amd64 box running, say, FreeBSD, is more than up to the task. When sizing the hardware make sure you have enough network bandwidth to keep up with the incoming stream of dumps. If you need more than a single Gig-E pipe, consider adding a two- or four-port PCI express Gig-E NIC (I highly recommend Intel NICs for this) and use link aggregation (802.1AX/LACP) to bond them into a fatter pipe. --lyndon From tednolan@bellsouth.net Mon Jan 11 10:29:39 2010 Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.121]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0BITdK8075145 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:29:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tednolan@bellsouth.net) X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=JqWe0O0ivM0A:10 a=1S7Dfl4KEZ33cL-KVqkA:9 a=TL7U06vwS9Clwjdnaq03i6oj0nUA:4 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 76.182.167.7 Received: from [76.182.167.7] ([76.182.167.7:35878] helo=sri.com) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id 65/BF-19471-D0E6B4B4; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:29:33 +0000 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Message-ID: <65.BF.19471.D0E6B4B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> In-Reply-To: Message from Lyndon Nerenberg of "Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:11:00 MST." From: tednolan@bellsouth.net Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 13:28:41 -0500 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:30:51 -0800 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:29:40 -0000 In message you writ e: >> Does anyone have any suggestions on commands that handle multiple >> volumes (similar to ufsdump, but that will work with any datastream and >> not the UFS strucuture)? > >A relatively simple solution would be to build a dedicated dump host. Send >the output of your dumps (of whatever format) to the dumphost, and use >something like Amanda to manage writing the data to tape. > Of course you could write a little program that reads stdin, writes a set amount to the tape, closes it and prompts on /dev/tty for another.. (A similar program in reverse for reading back of course) I did that back in the day for some multi tape stuff. Of course we were dealing with what are now trivial stream sizes, don't know that I'd trust my petabytes to such a thing, and it doesn't account for any compression your tape hardware can do.. Ted From jrmailgate-sage@yahoo.co.uk Mon Jan 11 10:31:15 2010 Received: from web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com (web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com [87.248.114.231]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id o0BIVE6Z075193 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:31:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrmailgate-sage@yahoo.co.uk) Received: (qmail 58852 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2010 18:31:09 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1263234669; bh=P0EHe3mHGYzxzOLf2jaqfrrNBQ9xNQtZDJF1eq1CAMM=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=jt+nJZQNkrwWkTIv/tnOpF0aM+Hn/ZR9oEnty6YybuJonJVKo095GrHmSYDM9MLtY+rcyhcGB+uYedDB4QqH2vLdC4jSfbSlqQefmVIQExxEWEkhqC6WQ9hW3E1tAXSta/Dd2f4V3pD51CYkrcAvJa8u0GPk8PIqwUWdWLvdKW0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ZvF0oXc7Hmqwkk8sN24cxzbIh9L8d5W/CaFvl1PK1IsxjC+CMQVx2+I73o+vclv/EfEEr8X0gaQbl3oRf65qSfBW3gZSEKJ2YdVdrTJI3oItjxCWiFNm1bkLlTr8zi53ZDbnFsDQ0PecU9o3LXEwGQVljyvdHjMvTfeva/mCUro=; Message-ID: <75731.58709.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 623tlz8VM1nkd_VWBtc2m5IXzH0VByDO68VsctsHeKrJIFL.KgJI1oXL6pktqMyoNuXWqTux0fOM437h1eZT3R1u.M5EiAoGpyxO8IFAbVfhQKDmXzihB9d3q8Qp01A7rBzwpVull4hnr1UtfqqCYwokETeX5CuhlrNcd4DoArm823B8FXMr4I08MeNRn70iPJBJ7UIW6mGNLk44Wg_KBLTEc_wZL7pMKCveJeqLNzWzU7nZrO1Eb_Xo.TQPArndvSU- Received: from [80.176.138.246] by web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:31:08 GMT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/240.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:31:08 +0000 (GMT) From: Julian Regel To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:31:16 -0000 Thanks for the comments and suggestions.=0A=0AIt's disappointing that we ar= e reliant on third party products (and in some cases additional hardware) t= o implement backup in a way that is equivalent to what our customers curren= tly get for free.=0A=0AI suppose that if I want to use tools provided by So= laris itself, I'm limited to tar, cpio or pax, and unless I misread the doc= umentation, cpio and pax are the only two that will handle multiple tapes.= =0A=0ASeems like Sun have a missing piece in the jigsaw.=0A=0AIf anyone has= any further ideas, please post!=0A=0AJR=0A=0A=0A From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Mon Jan 11 17:12:04 2010 Received: from tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.110]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0C1C3VX087450 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:12:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toip5.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.88]) by tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100112011203.PFTO1786.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip5.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 20:12:03 -0500 Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279335839.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.65.29.159]) by toip5.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 11 Jan 2010 20:12:40 -0500 Message-Id: From: David Magda To: Julian Regel In-Reply-To: <75731.58709.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 20:12:02 -0500 References: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <75731.58709.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 01:12:04 -0000 On Jan 11, 2010, at 13:31, Julian Regel wrote: > It's disappointing that we are reliant on third party products (and > in some cases additional hardware) to implement backup in a way that > is equivalent to what our customers currently get for free. If you have support contract(s) with Sun, call them up and ask them that you wish to be added to Bug IDs: 6807049 - zfs send stream format should be documented http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6807049 5004379 - want comprehensive backup strategy http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=5004379 Talking about it on this list won't help matters. You have to document it with Sun so they know where to put resources; squeaky wheel and all that. From des@cs.duke.edu Mon Jan 11 19:41:22 2010 Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0C3fLnr091001 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 19:41:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@cs.duke.edu) Received: from killerbee.westell.com (pool-96-233-224-13.rlghnc.dsl-w.verizon.net [96.233.224.13] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0C3fJG6006632 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 11 Jan 2010 22:41:20 -0500 (EST) X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.3 duke.cs.duke.edu o0C3fJG6006632 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=cs.duke.edu; s=mail; t=1263267680; bh=VwzNAI0j948a+0vSo2lchSrWKJIUpmwx8Np3MEFtDcU=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=YkU6pg8OajOpttJhHEVroOvEzoNJUpvN61vj4KfhmJxjskh05qiQIf6ULLeOX2FDi 5Z21vT7p1NDK3qwqOzkkxTNsUhLwmQxE2gctTYV+FWnoPmoR3CvRG/xt+qBJlQOwNH 5e30KBFrSiLepo0ymKOS2FxV6xFpfkoLAPHX7eHY= Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 22:41:43 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Singer X-X-Sender: des@killerbee To: Julian Regel In-Reply-To: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (DEB 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 03:41:22 -0000 On Mon, 11 Jan 2010, Julian Regel wrote: > I'm looking for a way to backup a Solaris ZFS filesystem to tape. > > My current thinking is to take a snapshot and perform a "zfs send" > to the tape device: > > # zfs send tank/home@monday > /dev/rmt/0cn > > The problem here is that if the snapshot is greater than the > capacity of a single tape, the backup will fail. > > Does anyone have any suggestions on commands that handle multiple > volumes (similar to ufsdump, but that will work with any datastream > and not the UFS strucuture)? > ... This program is a buffered copy filter, and supports multiple tapes and/or drives on Solaris: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~des/c/team.share.gz Your command line would be something like: zfs send tank/home@monday | team -vr -W "{a-script-to-notify-you-to-change-tapes}" 256k 3 64 > /dev/rmt/0cn -- Daniel E. Singer, System Administrator Dept. of Computer Science, Duke University, Durham NC 27708 USA From jrmailgate-sage@yahoo.co.uk Tue Jan 12 00:12:46 2010 Received: from web24508.mail.ird.yahoo.com (web24508.mail.ird.yahoo.com [87.248.114.235]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id o0C8Ch2V099568 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 00:12:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrmailgate-sage@yahoo.co.uk) Received: (qmail 99390 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2010 08:12:37 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1263283957; bh=l93kOThadKo8WKayAZRwjoI5AyZfjJAYwHZZLM2AAis=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=dPRiq2Mf0D/evdd6p8rmrtlA4i09UnZUX73LYsrb4lb1pFyjHDK/qbS/IUMoPF9SD4U9vztjqiYOmjiS1T3m5M+BOwiRY/kElItf8WB8y2qNStXfvmWOmC7SCZP7AVC40ZBvlnNEtyivDnv4wEFbMr6Ii/DVaGK257RbVQCHOaM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=cmFPNbViz9GHjc/PFOEza5qecU0mqP/W/yM7lrvzLREtzB0RyZftzALibxRWIaiEXJvVX+7IUL59a8wnzXWWWntegiRzrn/J6ehY//mMbdKIWL0L2a+pwRneBdg2eJrjPozIKhJYeCIdb/H2uvTyhN7knjBryIYgvxawWrnBbTk=; Message-ID: <826996.99379.qm@web24508.mail.ird.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: M4nK7QcVM1ki23hA7WJx2KtZXsy4TFn1oLWuDqoj.0rKUF8IHnhzUBCD46h4N3BxhA3sE2OSVDYkJvbePS1t9UPRhKilZl2V3TimEATZXQyvMEzAYLjwl4uDwOKew3jO4s9HFy5daXf8wuzIhpDZ133W5KEVvetyI8E6U5VweH4B8_HPk_QOmCbEQzyiccdZ65dC1kM7DY57xRdvestG8RkC.fOxJNi09KkjGjG1jomxpF6G.xfxNwEL_Fr9qEGjyRj20TlN Received: from [194.70.246.1] by web24508.mail.ird.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 00:12:37 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/240.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <75731.58709.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 00:12:37 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Regel To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 08:12:47 -0000 David=0A=0AThanks for the pointers to the bugs. I'll follow this up with Su= n.=0A=0AJR=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: David Mag= da =0ATo: Julian Regel = =0ACc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org=0ASent: Tue, 12 January, 2010 1:12:02= =0ASubject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes=0A=0AOn Jan 11, 2010, at = 13:31, Julian Regel wrote:=0A=0A> It's disappointing that we are reliant on= third party products (and in some cases additional hardware) to implement = backup in a way that is equivalent to what our customers currently get for = free.=0A=0AIf you have support contract(s) with Sun, call them up and ask t= hem that you wish to be added to Bug IDs:=0A=0A 6807049 - zfs send strea= m format should be documented=0A http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdata= base/view_bug.do?bug_id=3D6807049=0A 5004379 - want comprehensive backup= strategy=0A http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug= _id=3D5004379=0A=0ATalking about it on this list won't help matters. You ha= ve to document it with Sun so they know where to put resources; squeaky whe= el and all that.=0A=0A=0A From robert@timetraveller.org Wed Jan 13 09:30:59 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DHUx3A055250 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:30:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@timetraveller.org) Received: from procyon.opentrend.net (li144-209.members.linode.com [109.74.197.209]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DHUuqV023227 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:30:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by procyon.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1004) id F264CCEF8; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:23:16 -0500 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on procyon.opentrend.net X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, FH_DATE_PAST_20XX autolearn=no version=3.2.5 Received: from castor.opentrend.net (unknown [192.168.120.16]) by procyon.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18C8CD05 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:23:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BA2A7E507A69; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:30:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B45CA41597A5 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:30:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:30:15 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Brockway X-X-Sender: robert@castor.opentrend.net To: SAGE Members List Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:31:00 -0000 ... let it fall. It's only stuff and it should be insured anyway. http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/Vic-man-crushed-by-falling-server/0,130061702,339300407,00.htm?feed=rss&omnRef=http://forum.iprimus.com.au/index.php?topic=4241.0 :( Rob -- Email: robert@timetraveller.org IRC: Solver Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy From sechrest@gmail.com Wed Jan 13 09:44:15 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DHiFDI055565 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:44:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sechrest@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f53.google.com (mail-pw0-f53.google.com [209.85.160.53]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DHiCqE023564 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:44:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwj3 with SMTP id 3so1398625pwj.12 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:44:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=vlMCw29Q2GxXy8C2JLkyfcFxvRwaG+pMueNJ+Pb+/oY=; b=qJtz5rLLPa1lIdSU3TB6x+ZvkpxqRuyI0/6YAarOMMSp0GqPbXlKiogVnMEKMfBz+j ZQW/vyhdxebVrM9xfGjbBE80k/X2YtT/QYa36Iqy0xk/GHrmQASEAJoiTSf/GgyCVwi9 /NeT1mVSvzK9Uj4FTju0ImOPu1OGVbRsgMDXg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=NuDZWNj1z0pVKx8gxXHV7Y4kUsvo7/GUigckY6+a4QlxWdB5um7dZswJY3fzJTMPqk 2AGAyZ3nkd3qpdyN2Bz5N+rSisTm2mp+V63/PKReYvF6qKj5FVg+l87Bfz18PsyNiF/C /xQAXMokpObQSWm8BxUGDObaaHOiaFbpXj9mU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: sechrest@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.2.29 with SMTP id 29mr265409wab.48.1263404646895; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:44:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:44:06 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: d0851303de6a5739 Message-ID: <313372bc1001130944g488be447mfa6d60cec394bdf@mail.gmail.com> From: John Sechrest To: Robert Brockway X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=16% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:44:16 -0000 Absolutely let it fall. And do not try to hold on to it or support it. Popped something in my back and loose feeling in my toes over this very thing. Way not worth it. On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:30 AM, Robert Brockway wrote: > ... let it fall. It's only stuff and it should be insured anyway. > > > http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/Vic-man-crushed-by-falling-server/0,130061702,339300407,00.htm?feed=rss&omnRef=http://forum.iprimus.com.au/index.php?topic=4241.0 > > :( > > Rob > > -- > Email: robert@timetraveller.org > IRC: Solver > Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com > I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > -- John Sechrest . Corvallis Benton . Chamber Coalition . 420 NW 2nd . (541) 757-1507 . sechrest@corvallisedp.com . . From rskiadmin@chycoski.com Wed Jan 13 10:06:50 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DI6oUS056199 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:06:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rskiadmin@chycoski.com) Received: from adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.122.242.225]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DI6loR024264 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:06:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.72.2] (wizfast.rski.net [192.168.72.2]) by adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o0DI6dco025666; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:06:39 -0800 Message-ID: <4B4E0BAF.4070508@chycoski.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:06:39 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Brockway References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:06:51 -0000 A similar (serious but thankfully not fatal) accident happened at $WORK some years ago, I came upon an individual who had been about to lower a full rack on a power tail gate that gave way - he had no time to get out of the way. We have emergency-response-trained people in most buildings that I called to the scene, the paramedics came shortly after that. If you are lowering a server on a power tail gate - DO NOT STAND ON OR NEAR THE TAILGATE! If it's on wheels, lock or block them, and always stand on the inside of the truck, or beside it, not on or in front of the tailgate until the tailgate is lowered. - Richard Robert Brockway wrote: > ... let it fall. It's only stuff and it should be insured anyway. > > http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/Vic-man-crushed-by-falling-server/0,130061702,339300407,00.htm?feed=rss&omnRef=http://forum.iprimus.com.au/index.php?topic=4241.0 > > > :( > > Rob > From timetrap@gmail.com Wed Jan 13 11:05:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DJ5iKf058107 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:05:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f195.google.com (mail-pz0-f195.google.com [209.85.222.195]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DJ5fSh001234 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:05:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by pzk33 with SMTP id 33so8626255pzk.2 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:05:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fY+LlHPR3UNNQxNPwdsszMpE+9eM4xTB9jgzBZd3uGs=; b=SQUMqE+gNxIVKLWnj7lO0ld3kuD4HLPkHwMXPf2xRTNlzOtCEWi11k5ljY9CD9efRd /kgM27tnN1WijzFHtw0XRcsRC0Jvcxe1ucaBIwET+dD+sG3NFQAW6Bz2aGm+PEZxgyYd 1fIrbORlQowN/0YEj4z6Nw3sBC8OJmxYrXBvI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=JM8jHptWVb7fmq8f6gcl5bscjAPCPWc5VgHA60qbzJWhavpssN4Q6u3IORvoR7BJRc W6d7MQd0f/H9xPXdhT/NDCKCVLLcivZ1/7lGKAgapjKK8imMeFNVlyocF/ig/VjWJHxW MWmHbKm/MxuajogV/hYQgeXJwnvJ2pU0O60KY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.74.19 with SMTP id w19mr934957wfa.56.1263409536287; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:05:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <313372bc1001130944g488be447mfa6d60cec394bdf@mail.gmail.com> References: <313372bc1001130944g488be447mfa6d60cec394bdf@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:05:36 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 25e915848435b861 Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: John Sechrest Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=14% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0DJ5iKf058107 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:05:45 -0000 It was probably a reflex ... poor guy. On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 12:44 PM, John Sechrest wrote: > Absolutely let it fall. And do not try to hold on to it or support it. > > Popped something in my back and loose feeling in my toes over this very > thing. Way not worth it. > > > > On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:30 AM, Robert Brockway > wrote: > >> ... let it fall.  It's only stuff and it should be insured anyway. >> >> >> http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/Vic-man-crushed-by-falling-server/0,130061702,339300407,00.htm?feed=rss&omnRef=http://forum.iprimus.com.au/index.php?topic=4241.0 >> >> :( >> >> Rob >> >> -- >> Email: robert@timetraveller.org >> IRC: Solver >> Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com >> I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> >> > > > -- > John Sechrest          . > Corvallis Benton        . >   Chamber Coalition      . >      420 NW 2nd                   . >             (541) 757-1507              . sechrest@corvallisedp.com >                                                                     . > > >       . > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From mizmoose@gmail.com Wed Jan 13 11:19:20 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DJJKcH058551 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:19:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mizmoose@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f202.google.com (mail-qy0-f202.google.com [209.85.221.202]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DJJHLB001678 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:19:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk40 with SMTP id 40so11795237qyk.22 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:19:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4FbWljoFSRFK/46pPmB2m6AxB+hM1wJ/LF8UpxxDD9g=; b=GQz1Xb+t3deKc/0WAQSa5ZwdBYYf1N0K5o1dkQO7/M58warD+wp0sAE4dBQNytV7Mc A6LqBhAeWg04krHnrWDDNXzADgcFJD6u2BRo3fcVRdylwYn7HSJyfTNoWyHlHKcS5hW8 eIFaqClmR6HLprh1Iu9krEGnXKJQmYRNE9l50= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=PlnG0Mj8Ga308B31vTsH8nS3fzehgecpmk5q7iMzZKJ1CY7S5cPIBAF1x5qrK92ihQ aCElPsf599q06Y01sxkBMV8Cj72ViNi71yNvfj3kPMgPn+rV5BFVem+SdJlhMwyop0C+ WUQBU9LWyIAyc5+NbEzbJjmDA440lxvXceOJ4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.14.136 with SMTP id g8mr5070272qca.100.1263410351400; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:19:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:19:11 -0500 Message-ID: From: Esther Filderman To: SAGE Members List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0DJJKcH058551 Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:19:20 -0000 On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 12:30 PM, Robert Brockway wrote: > ... let it fall.  It's only stuff and it should be insured anyway. > > http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/Vic-man-crushed-by-falling-server/0,130061702,339300407,00.htm?feed=rss&omnRef=http://forum.iprimus.com.au/index.php?topic=4241.0 In my younger days I spent much time in the "putting on concerts" world. After you load and unload trucks of equipment (all owned by other people) you learn a few things. - Slide-out ramps from trucks can lose their grip and slip off the truck. If you're on the ramp you will slam into the ground, too. - Lift gates have a mind of their own. Worse is when the gate operator isn't really paying attention to who is where and what's on the gate. - Even with the heaviest of equipment in 'em, road cases and packing crates can bounce. - If it's made of wood, you will get a splinter. If it's made of metal, you will get a splinter and/or it will pinch you. Wear heavy gloves. And, yes, if it slips, let it go. Thankfully nobody I've known has been killed, though there are tales after tales of riggers and soundmen and lighting guys and more getting killed. But I've seen people dive after falling consoles and get hurt. Once while moving a grand piano it slipped and someone crushed a finger. And then there's the story of the slip of the guitar amp. If someone had tried to save it they would have been badly hurt. Thankfully nobody was, but trying to find amplifier tubes on a Sunday afternoon in the late '80s was a fun experience. From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Wed Jan 13 11:28:55 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DJSsFq058857 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:28:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DJSpBT002013 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:28:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0DJSfjD014622 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:28:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B4E1EE9.5030407@bio.umass.edu> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:28:41 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members List References: <4B4E0BAF.4070508@chycoski.com> In-Reply-To: <4B4E0BAF.4070508@chycoski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:28:50 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:28:55 -0000 Richard Chycoski wrote: > A similar (serious but thankfully not fatal) accident happened at > $WORK some years ago, I came upon an individual who had been about to > lower a full rack on a power tail gate that gave way - he had no time > to get out of the way. We have emergency-response-trained people in > most buildings that I called to the scene, the paramedics came shortly > after that. > > If you are lowering a server on a power tail gate - DO NOT STAND ON OR > NEAR THE TAILGATE! If it's on wheels, lock or block them, and always > stand on the inside of the truck, or beside it, not on or in front of > the tailgate until the tailgate is lowered. > > - Richard > > Robert Brockway wrote: >> ... let it fall. It's only stuff and it should be insured anyway. >> >> http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/Vic-man-crushed-by-falling-server/0,130061702,339300407,00.htm?feed=rss&omnRef=http://forum.iprimus.com.au/index.php?topic=4241.0 >> >> >> :( Near the end of 2008 we were in hurry up mode to get a new building opened for the beginning of the 2009 spring semester at the end of January. The construction was going to be right down to the wire. We had to get in and get the network and server rooms set up and running while the construction was still underway. In order to do that we were required to go through OSHA Construction Standard Training and were issued hardhats with personalized stickers and goggles. Almost all of what I saw in that training was what I would categorize as common sense (but I'm 60, cautious by nature, and have seen and done a lot). However, it was an amazing eye opener to see the videos of stupid things people have done that endangered their lives and that of others. You have to keep your eyes open, survey a situation and imagine and anticipate whatever can possibly go wrong. By thinking about it ahead of time you are less likely to act out of reflex and do something stupid. Over time you retrain those reflexes. -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From dlc@chiba.halibut.com Wed Jan 13 11:50:05 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DJo5Eg059568 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:50:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dlc@chiba.halibut.com) Received: from chiba.halibut.com (IDENT:rduke@chiba.halibut.com [204.238.213.130]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id o0DJo2YC002806 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:50:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 28289 invoked by uid 10174); 13 Jan 2010 19:43:21 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:43:21 -0800 From: David Carmean To: Dave Carmean Message-ID: <20100113114319.T13147@halibut.com> Mail-Followup-To: SAGE Members List References: <4B4E0BAF.4070508@chycoski.com> <4B4E1EE9.5030407@bio.umass.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <4B4E1EE9.5030407@bio.umass.edu>; from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu on Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 02:28:41PM -0500 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:50:05 -0000 Another scenario (the gear was wafer-fab inspection equipment, not a server, but contained a 1000-lb granite block as a component): Vendor delivered equipment to our loading dock but wasn't permitted to deliver it to the building where it would be installed; $WORK's logistics people backed a bobtail truck up to the loading dock's lift gate and our guys started to roll the system onto the back of the truck. As the load transferred to the truck's suspension, it did what suspensions do and compressed, thus toppling the system onto it's side on the truckbed, destroying a $US 1/2-million piece of electro-optical measuring equipment. From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Wed Jan 13 12:00:58 2010 Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DK0vgo059978 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:00:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0DK0t9G018814 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:00:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B4E2677.3080303@bio.umass.edu> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:00:55 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Regel References: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:00:56 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 20:00:59 -0000 Julian Regel wrote: > Hi > > I'm looking for a way to backup a Solaris ZFS filesystem to tape. > > My current thinking is to take a snapshot and perform a "zfs send" to the tape device: > > # zfs send tank/home@monday > /dev/rmt/0cn > > The problem here is that if the snapshot is greater than the capacity of a single tape, the backup will fail. > > Does anyone have any suggestions on commands that handle multiple volumes (similar to ufsdump, but that will work with any datastream and not the UFS strucuture)? > > I'm hoping I'm missing something really trivial, but at the moment, the inability to backup a ZFS filesystem to a tape library is a showstopper for us. > > An alternative question (but hopefully with the same answer), for ZFS users, how are you backing up to tape (if you are)? > > Thanks for any advice. Just some further comments on this. First, ZFS is still a work in progress. The basic functionality is solid, and the feature set is amazingly cool and continuing to evolve. Near the end of the year there was an informal announcement in the blogosphere that the development version of ZFS now has built in synchronous block level deduplication -- http://blogs.sun.com/bonwick/entry/zfs_dedup ! How awesome is that? However, some things that we might regard as basic (like the richness of ufsdump/restore and such "simple" things as individual file recovery) aren't there yet. Sun is focused on Enterprise Clients where high end commercial backup software is the norm, and other priorities are more important. Nevertheless, ZFS is already awesome. Second, although ZFS doesn't natively provide what we want for backup, third party backup software has evolved to provide the ability to deal with ZFS. But, you don't have to go with expensive commercial solutions. Amanda has been able to deal with ZFS for a while. See http://www.zmanda.com/blogs/?p=128. It can use ZFS snapshots and do a gnutar backup of the snapshot, or it can do a ZFS snapshot and then a ZFS send. In either case, Amanda knows how to take a data stream and break it up into pieces to be dumped to tape, and it knows how to continue those pieces to additional tapes. At recovery, it knows how to reassemble the pieces into the necessary stream for the recovery program. No point in trying to reproduce all that programming when you can just download open source code and get a whole lot more than you would ever be able to do on your own. -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From rskiadmin@chycoski.com Wed Jan 13 12:19:58 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DKJvgS060523 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:19:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rskiadmin@chycoski.com) Received: from adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.122.242.225]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DKJskW003855 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:19:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.72.2] (wizfast.rski.net [192.168.72.2]) by adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o0DKJm9r026791; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:19:48 -0800 Message-ID: <4B4E2AE3.8020309@chycoski.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:19:47 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Hoogendyk References: <4B4E0BAF.4070508@chycoski.com> <4B4E1EE9.5030407@bio.umass.edu> In-Reply-To: <4B4E1EE9.5030407@bio.umass.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 20:19:58 -0000 Chris Hoogendyk wrote: > > You have to keep your eyes open, survey a situation and imagine and > anticipate whatever can possibly go wrong. By thinking about it ahead > of time you are less likely to act out of reflex and do something > stupid. Over time you retrain those reflexes. > This is like the first (and usually only!) time that I caught a falling soldering iron. Most people I know only do it once too. :-) It also applies to other tools or knives - stand back and let them fall on the floor. I'm trying to teach my kids the same thing, but there are some things that you only really learn by doing it wrong at least once. Don't let your 'first time' be with a server on the back of a truck! - Richard From levins@westnet.com Wed Jan 13 12:35:02 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DKZ2wK060917 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:35:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from levins@westnet.com) Received: from westnet.com (root@westnet.com [216.187.52.2]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DKYwuo004193 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:35:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from westnet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id o0DKYwgm011519 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:34:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (levins@localhost) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.13.2/Submit) with ESMTP id o0DKYwtL011515 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:34:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:34:58 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Levin To: SAGE Members List In-Reply-To: <4B4E2AE3.8020309@chycoski.com> Message-ID: References: <4B4E0BAF.4070508@chycoski.com> <4B4E1EE9.5030407@bio.umass.edu> <4B4E2AE3.8020309@chycoski.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 20:35:02 -0000 On Wed, 13 Jan 2010, Richard Chycoski wrote: > It also applies to other tools or knives - stand back and let them fall on > the floor. I'm trying to teach my kids the same thing, but there are some > things that you only really learn by doing it wrong at least once. > > Don't let your 'first time' be with a server on the back of a truck! And, just in case anyone's wondering, it's even more difficult *not* to catch a falling item when you're a juggler -- trust me on this! -Adam From treed@copilotco.com Wed Jan 13 12:48:26 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DKmQFF061176 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:48:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DKmNRr004517 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:48:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id B1F9E64C97; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:48:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:48:23 -0800 From: Tracy Reed To: Robert Brockway Message-ID: <20100113204823.GK9581@tracyreed.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="+Z7/5fzWRHDJ0o7Q" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 20:48:27 -0000 --+Z7/5fzWRHDJ0o7Q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 12:30:15PM -0500, Robert Brockway spake thusly: > ... let it fall. It's only stuff and it should be insured anyway. http://tracyreed.org/photo-album/funny/storagetek_oops.jpg/image_view_fulls= creen This box contains a StorageTek 9145 with 100 18G fibrechannel disks, the chassis, two storage processors, dual UPS batteries in the bottom, etc. IIRC it weighed around 1200lbs. Probably cost around $120k too. It was delivered to my office at MP3.com in San Diego around 1999. We had half a dozen of them or so at this point. In the past they had come in a big truck with a forklift. On this day I remember the delivery guy showed up with the disk array in the back of what was basically a moving truck with one of those infamous lift gates on the back. He had a pallet jack inside the truck. I watched the compression on the rear end compress as the pallet jack wheeled the crate to the back of the truck. Then a little more as it went out onto the gate. Then I watched the gate flex as he pushed the bottom to lower it. Then in amazing slow motion and ever so gracefully the box tipped over perfectly horizontally and fell from about 5 feet straight onto the pavement. I could feel the thud in my legs from where I stood nearby. Glad nobody tried to save it. Having just watched him drop sensitive and expensive disk equipment on the ground there was no way I could accept the delivery. The driver was visibly upset and had no way of getting the thing upright much less back on the truck. He went down the street and rented one of those huge four wheeled diesel forklift things like you see on a construction site (not the little electric/natural gas warehouse kind), speared the box with a tine on the lift, and pushed it back into the truck. =46rom then on they delivered our disk arrays with proper forklifts. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --+Z7/5fzWRHDJ0o7Q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLTjGX9PIYKZYVAq0RAqxqAJkBqvxe9MSdPXjaSbUoMk4+Br4Y6gCfaUaK XTETdBAgBllutRZJhhNjO2A= =zlH/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --+Z7/5fzWRHDJ0o7Q-- From timetrap@gmail.com Wed Jan 13 13:03:38 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DL3cHs061456 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:03:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f53.google.com (mail-pw0-f53.google.com [209.85.160.53]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DL3ZGf004828 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwj3 with SMTP id 3so1540068pwj.12 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:03:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=/EeZn8nVnBGXN6OMgKWZ2GHTNnk3JA+DrPE1ZHD3yRY=; b=SO67epq6+FGEDI+l//IzUBIsHXqQ6UIXPhsjw7cAST8jnwPmFFsJ+EpnDd+wczZ1FN EGcp6z2aQPFKHbqcal+3K/cgyrIPHkrZ2DHN6LBXvPJVOCiPTDCRw1Fg1EbMp9Jjmsfv sT2iTkrK6rVIB52iZlOm0iwJGVfEo/f+UbKeY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=uRNr3A4ECB6lApDBXbuLsR5EEkSn4hFwCI3dI572bMwbK0eVv8s0yEPt7rcHWXhCKe VNueIxgK7tAoc6TPeqgzuSxLpYvya/CBkbdEJ4dHjiMvkq7O27bTdDsj4/TydbpmfpRW Ku9ivNZdRbADYhHP9hOVjWDPhuIFN5nZj9OUs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.74.19 with SMTP id w19mr1025906wfa.56.1263416609899; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:03:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4B4E0BAF.4070508@chycoski.com> <4B4E1EE9.5030407@bio.umass.edu> <4B4E2AE3.8020309@chycoski.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 16:03:29 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: abaac9712f8c4964 Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: Adam Levin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=16% Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 21:03:38 -0000 I was helping someone install some radio equipment on a tower, when I heard an "Oops". This was followed by a cascading sound of tiny metal clinks, followed by a *thunk*. I looked over, about 5 feet from where I was standing, and saw a knife sticking out of the ground. We had a few words afterwards. Be careful of your actions and the people around you as well. On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Adam Levin wrote: > > On Wed, 13 Jan 2010, Richard Chycoski wrote: >> >> It also applies to other tools or knives - stand back and let them fall on >> the floor. I'm trying to teach my kids the same thing, but there are some >> things that you only really learn by doing it wrong at least once. >> >> Don't let your 'first time' be with a server on the back of a truck! > > And, just in case anyone's wondering, it's even more difficult *not* to > catch a falling item when you're a juggler -- trust me on this! > > -Adam > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From jlockard@umich.edu Wed Jan 13 14:54:20 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DMsKBr064511 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:54:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlockard@umich.edu) Received: from 28dayslater.mr.itd.umich.edu (28dayslater.mr.itd.umich.edu [141.211.12.118]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DMsDNj006994 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: FROM tombraider.mr.itd.umich.edu (smtp.mail.umich.edu [141.211.93.161]) By 28dayslater.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 4B4E4C2F.CAE5F.16270 ; 13 Jan 2010 17:41:51 EST Received: FROM localhost (dataless.si.umich.edu [141.211.185.113]) By tombraider.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 4B4E4C29.31FB8.20150 ; Authuser jlockard; 13 Jan 2010 17:41:45 EST Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:42:39 -0500 From: John Lockard To: Joseph Kern Message-ID: <20100113224239.GG2722@umich.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Joseph Kern , Adam Levin , SAGE Members List References: <4B4E0BAF.4070508@chycoski.com> <4B4E1EE9.5030407@bio.umass.edu> <4B4E2AE3.8020309@chycoski.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 22:54:21 -0000 A rock or ice climber would have screamed out "ROCK!" to have alerted you. On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 04:03:29PM -0500, Joseph Kern wrote: > I was helping someone install some radio equipment on a tower, when I > heard an "Oops". This was followed by a cascading sound of tiny metal > clinks, followed by a *thunk*. I looked over, about 5 feet from where > I was standing, and saw a knife sticking out of the ground. > > We had a few words afterwards. > > > Be careful of your actions and the people around you as well. > > On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Adam Levin wrote: > > > > On Wed, 13 Jan 2010, Richard Chycoski wrote: > >> > >> It also applies to other tools or knives - stand back and let them fall on > >> the floor. I'm trying to teach my kids the same thing, but there are some > >> things that you only really learn by doing it wrong at least once. > >> > >> Don't let your 'first time' be with a server on the back of a truck! > > > > And, just in case anyone's wondering, it's even more difficult *not* to > > catch a falling item when you're a juggler -- trust me on this! > > > > -Adam > > _______________________________________________ > > sage-members mailing list > > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > -- "Of all the slimy, gross crab monsters on this planet, you are apparently the hottest." - Fry ------------------------------------------------------------------- John M. Lockard | U of Michigan - School of Information Unix and Security Admin | 1214 SI North - 1075 Beal Ave. jlockard@umich.edu | Ann Arbor, MI 48109-2112 www.umich.edu/~jlockard | 734-615-8776 | 734-647-8045 FAX ------------------------------------------------------------------- From marc@lynxconsultants.com Mon Jan 18 10:01:06 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0II16FK023908 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 10:01:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marc@lynxconsultants.com) Received: from mx.iwith.org (mx.iwith.org [212.203.71.220]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0II12lN019360 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 10:01:05 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (mx.iwith.org: authenticated connection) receiver=mx.iwith.org; client-ip=94.194.204.136; helo=treptow.localnet; envelope-from=marc@lynxconsultants.com; x-software=spfmilter 0.97 http://www.acme.com/software/spfmilter/ with libspf2-1.0.0; Received: from treptow.localnet (94-194-204-136.zone8.bethere.co.uk [94.194.204.136]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.iwith.org (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0IHaep3016398 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:36:41 +0100 From: Marc Cluet Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 17:36:39 +0000 Message-Id: To: SAGE Members List Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.2 at front1 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.9 required=3.0 tests=LOCAL_AUTH_RCVD, PRICES_ARE_AFFORDABLE, RDNS_DYNAMIC shortcircuit=no autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on front1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0II16FK023908 Subject: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:01:07 -0000 Hello list members, I have a customer right now that is using UltraDNS as their DNS provider for just one reason, outsourcing DNS queries and being able to withstand a good amount of queries (around 20 million per month) and have a redundant enough platform at affordable prices, UltraDNS is covering our options quite well technically but their prices are high, that's why we're looking for alternatives. We want to be sure that - It is capable of withstand DOS attacks - It has a proper web interface for managing dns (UltraDNS is a bit shaky) - It has proper redundancy (multiple locations) - It has a competitive price - We use around 20 million queries per month on 4 zones with 300 entries I would like to know your experiences about this kind of services. Cheers guys, -- Marc Cluet (marc@lynxconsultants.com) Network and Systems Engineer From richard.dakin@ccci.org Mon Jan 18 11:01:56 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0IJ1umF025329 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 11:01:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from richard.dakin@ccci.org) Received: from mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com (mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com [208.84.65.127]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0IJ1rEA020726 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 11:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (pph41414 [127.0.0.1]) by pph41414.pph.sfo.proofpoint.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with SMTP id o0IIjpth029965; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:01:43 -0500 Received: from hart-edge2.ccci.org ([72.159.180.78]) by pph41414.pph.sfo.proofpoint.com with ESMTP id kak89n9cd-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:01:43 -0500 Received: from HART-E013V.net.ccci.org (10.10.11.4) by HART-EDGE2.ccci.org (172.16.1.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.393.1; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:01:42 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:58:44 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS Thread-Index: AcqYaPKl3sHrkqf6RAuRGPLog0uPTgABzT9Q References: From: Richard Dakin To: Marc Cluet , SAGE Members List X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2010-01-18_08:2010-01-05, 2010-01-18, 2010-01-17 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1001180164 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0IJ1umF025329 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:01:56 -0000 Rick Moen did an article in LinuxGazette that might help. http://linuxgazette.net/170/googledns.html -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Marc Cluet Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 12:37 PM To: SAGE Members List Subject: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS Hello list members, I have a customer right now that is using UltraDNS as their DNS provider for just one reason, outsourcing DNS queries and being able to withstand a good amount of queries (around 20 million per month) and have a redundant enough platform at affordable prices, UltraDNS is covering our options quite well technically but their prices are high, that's why we're looking for alternatives. We want to be sure that - It is capable of withstand DOS attacks - It has a proper web interface for managing dns (UltraDNS is a bit shaky) - It has proper redundancy (multiple locations) - It has a competitive price - We use around 20 million queries per month on 4 zones with 300 entries I would like to know your experiences about this kind of services. Cheers guys, -- Marc Cluet (marc@lynxconsultants.com) Network and Systems Engineer _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From tal@whatexit.org Mon Jan 18 12:12:28 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0IKCRPj026597 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:12:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-iw0-f180.google.com (mail-iw0-f180.google.com [209.85.223.180]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0IKCObI022253 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:12:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by iwn10 with SMTP id 10so2451470iwn.22 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:12:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.123.41 with SMTP id n41mr1539064ibr.46.1263845539176; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:12:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:12:19 -0800 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: Richard Dakin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:12:28 -0000 (I'm not an official spokesperson, but I know people on the Google Public DNS team) That article is all speculation, done badly. He could have contacted the Google Public DNS team for clarification but he didn't. Here's the story as I see it: Google wants the internet to be successful in the future. I'm sure you can understand why. Slow web experience is bad for the future growth of the internet. Not just a little, a LOT. Google and Microsoft have both published statistics about how faster web experience improves user satisfaction; and how even a 1ms reduction in latency results in noticeable reduction in revenue for web sites. Really. As a result, Google has created a multi-year initiative to speed up the web experience for all users, not just for users of Google's web sites. http://code.google.com/speed/ As part of this initiative Google is rolling out various products, tools, and technologies to improve speed on the web. -- Active participation in the HTML5 effort: letting browsers do more with less dependency on the network -- Chrome: faster Javascript -- Page Speed: tool to help web sites improve their own performance -- SPDY: An enhanced HTTP protocol that will be 2x faster http://tinyurl.com/spdyann -- Google Public DNS: faster DNS Google Public DNS is just one of those roll-outs. If you look at the graphs that PageSpeed produce, a big chunk of the time it takes to load a web page is DNS resolution. It is much worse at certain ISPs. Some ISPs provide painfully slow DNS on under-powered, under-engineered servers. Google Public DNS is an effort to provide faster DNS with better privacy restrictions (logs tossed quickly, no use of logs for advertising stuff, etc.) and some innovations that make it more secure. The fact that the article you linked to speculates that Google Public DNS might have been created for one reason or another erks me because there is absolutely one reason it is created, and Google has announced it: Make the web faster http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/introducing-google-public-dns.html (To be specific: I am erked that the article doesn't say, "Google claims X but I don't believe them and here is why: A, B, C." It says "we don't know why Google is doing this, let me speculate A, B, C.". The former is responsible journalism. The latter is... I'll be polite and say "erksome") To make people confident about the privacy issues, google has spelled out with painstaking detail how the logs are treated: http://code.google.com/speed/public-dns/privacy.html (I can't remember any other company every spelling things out so technically) Should you use Google Public DNS? If it isn't faster, don't use it. That would defeat the purpose of the "make the web faster" initiative. If you still have privacy concerns, same thing. (though know that the Google privacy policy is better than what my ISP publishes, and is better than what I provided to users at my last company because I didn't have a policy there). If you need filtering or features that providers give or if (due to network topology or better code) their service is faster, please use them. However, if it makes your life better please use it. I've been using it since before it was announced and I find it very reliable and fast. In summary: Google Public DNS is part of a larger effort to provide faster web service for all web sites: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/06/lets-make-web-faster.html Google Public DNS is just plain DNS with no filtering or other enhancements that UltraDNS and OpenDNS provide. Full info is here: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/introducing-google-public-dns.html Privacy policy: http://code.google.com/speed/public-dns/privacy.html Google Public DNS is not always the fastest, but there are benchmarks you can try yourself: http://code.google.com/p/namebench/ Tom Limoncelli (not speaking for my employer) tlim@google.com or http://everythingsysadmin.com P.S. I'm not sure if "erksome" is spelled right. From shrdlu@deaddrop.org Mon Jan 18 12:37:16 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0IKbGTa027191 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:37:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shrdlu@deaddrop.org) Received: from relay03.pair.com (relay03.pair.com [209.68.5.17]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id o0IKbCRS022717 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:37:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5151 invoked by uid 0); 18 Jan 2010 20:30:32 -0000 Received: from 66.119.212.42 (HELO ?66.119.212.42?) (66.119.212.42) by relay03.pair.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2010 20:30:32 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 66.119.212.42 Message-ID: <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:28:27 -0800 From: Shrdlu Organization: dig @localhost TXT CHAOS version.bind User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.11) Gecko/20050728 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=3% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:37:16 -0000 Tom Limoncelli wrote: > P.S. I'm not sure if "erksome" is spelled right. It's irksome. As an amusement, let me tell you my current favorite spell checker. I type a word into google, slowly, and often I see a correct spelling before I'm through typing. If note, the search will have a "perhaps you really meant?" kind of suggestion at the top (as you know). Yep. I use der goog to spell check. -- "They had discovered Mr. Slippery's True Name and it was Roger Andrew Pollack TIN/SSAN 0959-34-2861, and no amount of evasion, tricky programming, or robot sources could ever again protect him from them." True Names, Vernor Vinge From djmitche@gmail.com Mon Jan 18 12:46:39 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0IKkdu9027567 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:46:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djmitche@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.157]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0IKkZDW022952 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:46:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e21so54524fga.10 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:46:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=p80IZHD1bCMSpHtU/MJDLwSSF8nDks5H2mpCZJE1svY=; b=vBBkLDzD3KOv2D7+2WAuCMnxv5ylvO+UroF+MUfIa2QMBaZ7ou2fALYaVlUs6mXhYP 0K0yxKzv4bj+CMicuk4o/9NuVrLujE+MuDrzRrcVrUbmZlMP6ssSYZWoT31YCK8NK53A B1DhWT/GSTm+Y8KGDSRgDEwCgPHLmsOc7AKak= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=cINh8/beF64K3BAlHwIruX27FfoIqNlaeD2mj70rV2ShgJJU/C0XcZYIerE63W/0TR gaOSpdY1jST0y2/hNNUz9/CqRLZ7QL/0r8tYql20o1CuAqVumQzVW9zRM7AolB5Jpzwv ED1VXYFbXfoIhVRiSL+LXiGeCd1dnJBfit0yA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: djmitche@gmail.com Received: by 10.87.64.6 with SMTP id r6mr8510304fgk.19.1263847594513; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:46:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:46:34 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 412af4ba853dd481 Message-ID: <42338fbf1001181246g36e974chb50cff921e6f1d23@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dustin J. Mitchell" To: Shrdlu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:46:39 -0000 On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Shrdlu wrote: > As an amusement, let me tell you my current favorite spell checker. I type a > word into google, slowly, and often I see a correct spelling before I'm > through typing. If note, the search will have a "perhaps you really meant?" > kind of suggestion at the top (as you know). Yep. I use der goog to spell > check. Did you try checking "erksome"? Google doesn't offer me any suggestions, and finds lots of hits with the misspelling. Yep, teh internetz r mkng us stoopidr. ;) Sorry to be OT.. Dustin -- Open Source Storage Engineer http://www.zmanda.com From papilion@hypergeometric.com Mon Jan 18 13:04:50 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0IL4n4o028003 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:04:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from papilion@hypergeometric.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f197.google.com (mail-pz0-f197.google.com [209.85.222.197]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0IL4ksr023288 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:04:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by pzk35 with SMTP id 35so2637457pzk.22 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:04:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: papilion@hypergeometric.com Received: by 10.143.21.36 with SMTP id y36mr2266930wfi.160.1263848679116; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:04:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:04:39 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5764eaa5ca0617ea Message-ID: From: geoffrey papilion To: Marc Cluet Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0IL4n4o028003 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:04:50 -0000 At $WORK we use UltraDNS, and we've been bitten a few times by a couple of DDoS directed at various geographies. We've been talking lately about what we want to do after the 12/23 DDoS that killed their west coast datacenters. We're still waiting for the official explanation as to why this took so long to recover from. I suspect they wanted to isolate the outage to one geography. At my previous job I did a quick rundown of competitors, and there wasn't much out there. We wanted the geoDNS features, and the health tests etc.. UltraDNS was both the cheapest and easiest to get going. I believe Akamai is still a competitor(and likely much better), but I suspect it will make ultraDNS look cheap. //geoff On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 9:36 AM, Marc Cluet wrote: > Hello list members, > > I have a customer right now that is using UltraDNS as their DNS provider for just one reason, outsourcing DNS queries and being able to withstand a good amount of queries (around 20 million per month) and have a redundant enough platform at affordable prices, UltraDNS is covering our options quite well technically but their prices are high, that's why we're looking for alternatives. > > We want to be sure that > - It is capable of withstand DOS attacks > - It has a proper web interface for managing dns (UltraDNS is a bit shaky) > - It has proper redundancy (multiple locations) > - It has a competitive price > - We use around 20 million queries per month on 4 zones with 300 entries > > I would like to know your experiences about this kind of services. > > Cheers guys, > > -- > Marc Cluet (marc@lynxconsultants.com) > Network and Systems Engineer > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From allbery@ece.cmu.edu Mon Jan 18 13:09:14 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0IL9Ev1028151 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:09:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu (BACHE.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.129.23]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0IL9BiU023362 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:09:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mress.kf8nh.com (static-72-77-17-40.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net [72.77.17.40]) (Authenticated sender: allbery@ECE.CMU.EDU) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AEF4B8; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:09:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <906A7DA5-3353-44BA-8419-04CA1442D8B7@ece.cmu.edu> From: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" To: Shrdlu In-Reply-To: <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-240--73586940" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:08:58 -0500 References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.0 (v56) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:09:15 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-240--73586940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Jan 18, 2010, at 15:28 , Shrdlu wrote: > As an amusement, let me tell you my current favorite spell checker. > I type a word into google, slowly, and often I see a correct > spelling before I'm through typing. If note, the search will have a > "perhaps you really meant?" kind of suggestion at the top (as you > know). Yep. I use der goog to spell check. This only works when a majority of people spell the word correctly.... -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH --Apple-Mail-240--73586940 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAktUzfQACgkQIn7hlCsL25UvoQCgy2n94G8eVzXtfykGSqvYfaF8 SbwAoMv5S/nn5jF3XACBi+WGRP4x9yKZ =ez6H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-240--73586940-- From tytso@thunk.org Mon Jan 18 13:10:04 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0ILA3G5028190 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:10:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tytso@thunk.org) Received: from thunker.thunk.org (thunk.org [69.25.196.29]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0ILA09i023399 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:10:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from root (helo=closure.thunk.org) by thunker.thunk.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.50 #1 (Debian)) id 1NWyr9-0006yJ-EU; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:09:51 -0500 Received: from tytso by closure.thunk.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NWyr3-0000jc-Ck; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:09:45 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:09:45 -0500 From: tytso@mit.edu To: Tom Limoncelli Message-ID: <20100118210945.GA2640@thunk.org> References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: tytso@thunk.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on thunker.thunk.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=94% Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:10:04 -0000 On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:12:19PM -0800, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > If you look at the graphs that PageSpeed produce, a big chunk of the > time it takes to load a web page is DNS resolution. It is much worse > at certain ISPs. Some ISPs provide painfully slow DNS on > under-powered, under-engineered servers. Google Public DNS is an > effort to provide faster DNS with better privacy restrictions (logs > tossed quickly, no use of logs for advertising stuff, etc.) and some > innovations that make it more secure. I really came to understand, at a gut level, why the Public DNS was launched when I came out to the Bay Area at the beginning of the year for my new employee orientation at Google, and was put up at some corporate-owned apartments in Mountain View. The apartment had a local internet service, without any nasty hotel captive portal system in the way --- but the DNS resolution speed was **b*a*d**. As in, seconds, and sometimes DNS queries would be lost entirely. I had never seen such a lousy DNS service before; my internet is provided by the same corporation entity in Boston, and it works fine there. But in Mountain View, the DNS was so bad it was practically unusable. Once I configured my DHCP client to hard-code the use of 8.8.8.8, I could browse the web again. So if this kind of experience is common with consumers (and this cable provider provides service for a huge percentage of consumers in the States), I can definitely understand why Google would be interested in rolling out a competently run DNS service, since the more people use the web, the more Google tends to make money. Not speaking for my (new) employer, either. :-) - Ted From allbery@ece.cmu.edu Mon Jan 18 13:10:31 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0ILAVgG028214 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:10:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu (BACHE.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.129.23]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0ILASmf023426 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:10:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mress.kf8nh.com (static-72-77-17-40.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net [72.77.17.40]) (Authenticated sender: allbery@ECE.CMU.EDU) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558C7C2; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:10:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: From: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" To: "Dustin J. Mitchell" In-Reply-To: <42338fbf1001181246g36e974chb50cff921e6f1d23@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-241--73500396" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:10:24 -0500 References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> <42338fbf1001181246g36e974chb50cff921e6f1d23@mail.gmail.com> X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.0 (v56) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:10:31 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-241--73500396 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Jan 18, 2010, at 15:46 , Dustin J. Mitchell wrote: > On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Shrdlu wrote: >> As an amusement, let me tell you my current favorite spell checker. >> I type a >> word into google, slowly, and often I see a correct spelling before >> I'm >> through typing. If note, the search will have a "perhaps you really >> meant?" >> kind of suggestion at the top (as you know). Yep. I use der goog to >> spell >> check. > > Did you try checking "erksome"? Google doesn't offer me any > suggestions, and finds lots of hits with the misspelling. Yep, teh > internetz r mkng us stoopidr. ;) Misspellings of "bizarre" also tend to be more popular than the correct spelling. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH --Apple-Mail-241--73500396 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAktUzkAACgkQIn7hlCsL25Xf7wCgtlxpvXoHrX1ZdXlqfcvu54dy /WEAn1vvSYpX79nWAHddu/014hKnxyEl =s5v3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-241--73500396-- From shrdlu@deaddrop.org Mon Jan 18 14:04:19 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0IM4IWf029303 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:04:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shrdlu@deaddrop.org) Received: from relay03.pair.com (relay03.pair.com [209.68.5.17]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id o0IM4FX4024445 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 61349 invoked by uid 0); 18 Jan 2010 22:04:14 -0000 Received: from 66.119.212.42 (HELO ?66.119.212.42?) (66.119.212.42) by relay03.pair.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2010 22:04:14 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 66.119.212.42 Message-ID: <4B54DA62.7020706@deaddrop.org> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:02:10 -0800 From: Shrdlu Organization: dig @localhost TXT CHAOS version.bind User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.11) Gecko/20050728 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> <906A7DA5-3353-44BA-8419-04CA1442D8B7@ece.cmu.edu> In-Reply-To: <906A7DA5-3353-44BA-8419-04CA1442D8B7@ece.cmu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=3% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:04:19 -0000 Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: > On Jan 18, 2010, at 15:28 , Shrdlu wrote: > >> As an amusement, let me tell you my current favorite spell checker. I >> type a word into google, slowly, and often I see a correct spelling >> before I'm through typing. If note, the search will have a "perhaps >> you really meant?" kind of suggestion at the top (as you know). Yep. >> I use der goog to spell check. > This only works when a majority of people spell the word correctly.... Oh dear. I should have been more clear. Please note that I said I often see a "correct spelling" and should have added that I recognize the correct one when I'm reminded of it. I also have spell check turned on, but it doesn't catch the typographical errors such as the above, where I say "If note" instead of "If not" (dangit). Someone else suggested that typing "erksome" did not bring up "irksome" so I checked. For me, it does, and there are no other words suggested excepting "irksome" and phrases with irksome in it, once I have type to the "o" in the word. -- "They had discovered Mr. Slippery's True Name and it was Roger Andrew Pollack TIN/SSAN 0959-34-2861, and no amount of evasion, tricky programming, or robot sources could ever again protect him from them." True Names, Vernor Vinge From tal@whatexit.org Mon Jan 18 16:07:21 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0J07Kpk031749 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:07:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-iw0-f180.google.com (mail-iw0-f180.google.com [209.85.223.180]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0J07HC7026386 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:07:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by iwn10 with SMTP id 10so2594865iwn.22 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:07:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.59.7 with SMTP id j7mr953383ibh.12.1263859632176; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:07:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:07:12 -0800 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91001181607m4c05aa34y2ad554cb5eed19dc@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: Richard Dakin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0J07Kpk031749 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:07:22 -0000 On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:12 PM, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > Google wants the internet to be successful in the future.  I'm sure > you can understand why.  Slow web experience is bad for the future > growth of the internet. Not just a little, a LOT. Google and Microsoft > have both published statistics about how faster web experience > improves user satisfaction; and how even a 1ms reduction in latency > results in noticeable reduction in revenue for web sites.  Really. Correction... 1ms /worsening/ in latency results in noticeable reduction in revenue for web sites. Tom From marc@lynxconsultants.com Mon Jan 18 16:29:16 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0J0TGiv032135 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:29:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marc@lynxconsultants.com) Received: from mx.iwith.org (mx.iwith.org [212.203.71.220]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0J0TCpS026724 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:29:15 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (mx.iwith.org: authenticated connection) receiver=mx.iwith.org; client-ip=94.194.204.136; helo=lichtenberg-wifi.localnet; envelope-from=marc@lynxconsultants.com; x-software=spfmilter 0.97 http://www.acme.com/software/spfmilter/ with libspf2-1.0.0; Received: from lichtenberg-wifi.localnet (94-194-204-136.zone8.bethere.co.uk [94.194.204.136]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.iwith.org (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0J0T4RO017850 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:29:06 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Marc Cluet In-Reply-To: <20100118161814.H922@escape.org> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:29:02 +0000 Message-Id: <039D7E1A-5C35-47FD-8BAB-6B2883D44D90@lynxconsultants.com> References: <20100118161814.H922@escape.org> To: Marco Nicosia X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.2 at front3 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.8 required=3.0 tests=AWL,LOCAL_AUTH_RCVD, PRICES_ARE_AFFORDABLE, RDNS_DYNAMIC shortcircuit=no autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on front3.iwith.org X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0J0TGiv032135 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:29:17 -0000 That's the kind of information I was looking for, thank you very much for the tip! On Jan 19, 2010, at 00:18 , Marco Nicosia wrote: > I'm surprised; I just assumed that by now that someone would have > mentioned that Dyn.com is a competitor to UltraDNS. They host > twitter, among others. > > -- Marco N. > > Marc Cluet (marc@lynxconsultants.com) wrote: >> Hello list members, >> >> I have a customer right now that is using UltraDNS as their DNS provider for just one reason, outsourcing DNS queries and being able to withstand a good amount of queries (around 20 million per month) and have a redundant enough platform at affordable prices, UltraDNS is covering our options quite well technically but their prices are high, that's why we're looking for alternatives. >> >> We want to be sure that >> - It is capable of withstand DOS attacks >> - It has a proper web interface for managing dns (UltraDNS is a bit shaky) >> - It has proper redundancy (multiple locations) >> - It has a competitive price >> - We use around 20 million queries per month on 4 zones with 300 entries >> >> I would like to know your experiences about this kind of services. >> >> Cheers guys, >> >> -- >> Marc Cluet (marc@lynxconsultants.com) >> Network and Systems Engineer >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > _______________________________________________________________________ > Marco E. Nicosia | http://www.escape.org/~marco/ | marco@escape.org -- Marc Cluet (marc@lynxconsultants.com) Network and Systems Engineer From marco@server.escape.org Mon Jan 18 16:29:38 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0J0TcMw032146 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:29:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marco@server.escape.org) Received: from server.escape.org (adsl-63-197-76-200.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.197.76.200]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0J0TZcx026738 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.escape.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by server.escape.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o0J0IEhX006950; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:18:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marco@server.escape.org) Received: (from marco@localhost) by server.escape.org (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id o0J0IEcQ006949; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:18:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marco) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:18:14 -0800 From: Marco Nicosia To: Marc Cluet Message-ID: <20100118161814.H922@escape.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from marc@lynxconsultants.com on Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 05:36:39PM +0000 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:29:38 -0000 I'm surprised; I just assumed that by now that someone would have mentioned that Dyn.com is a competitor to UltraDNS. They host twitter, among others. -- Marco N. Marc Cluet (marc@lynxconsultants.com) wrote: > Hello list members, > > I have a customer right now that is using UltraDNS as their DNS provider for just one reason, outsourcing DNS queries and being able to withstand a good amount of queries (around 20 million per month) and have a redundant enough platform at affordable prices, UltraDNS is covering our options quite well technically but their prices are high, that's why we're looking for alternatives. > > We want to be sure that > - It is capable of withstand DOS attacks > - It has a proper web interface for managing dns (UltraDNS is a bit shaky) > - It has proper redundancy (multiple locations) > - It has a competitive price > - We use around 20 million queries per month on 4 zones with 300 entries > > I would like to know your experiences about this kind of services. > > Cheers guys, > > -- > Marc Cluet (marc@lynxconsultants.com) > Network and Systems Engineer > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members _______________________________________________________________________ Marco E. Nicosia | http://www.escape.org/~marco/ | marco@escape.org From btv1==6358e79326e==guy@crossflight.co.uk Tue Jan 19 01:48:34 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0J9mY6W044200 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:48:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from btv1==6358e79326e==guy@crossflight.co.uk) Received: from bc30o.crossflight.co.uk (bc30o.crossflight.co.uk [195.172.72.196]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0J9mUCi014398 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:48:33 -0800 (PST) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1263894503-752a00610000-ALoPZf X-Barracuda-URL: http://195.172.72.196:8000/cgi-bin/mark.cgi Received: from vsmtpe.crossflight.co.uk (vsmtpe.crossflight.co.uk [195.172.72.209]) by bc30o.crossflight.co.uk (Spam & Virus Firewall) with ESMTP id 8C361144822 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:48:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vsmtpe.crossflight.co.uk (vsmtpe.crossflight.co.uk [195.172.72.209]) by bc30o.crossflight.co.uk with ESMTP id 9vfKjLPvrLNTgT7Y for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:48:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [172.16.72.7] (northropi.crossflight.co.uk [172.16.72.7]) by vsmtpe.crossflight.co.uk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0J9mNHk033989; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:48:23 GMT (envelope-from guy@crossflight.co.uk) Message-ID: <4B557FE6.40202@crossflight.co.uk> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:48:22 +0000 From: Guy Dawson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091204 Thunderbird/3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> <906A7DA5-3353-44BA-8419-04CA1442D8B7@ece.cmu.edu> In-Reply-To: <906A7DA5-3353-44BA-8419-04CA1442D8B7@ece.cmu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Barracuda-Connect: vsmtpe.crossflight.co.uk[195.172.72.209] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1263894503 X-Barracuda-Virus-Scanned: by Barracuda Spam & Virus Firewall at crossflight.co.uk X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: -1002.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=-1002.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=1000.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:48:34 -0000 On 18/01/2010 21:08, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: > This only works when a majority of people spell the word correctly.... Which over time is how we define the correct spelling. Now time for colourful language? Guy -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Guy Dawson I.T. Systems Manager Crossflight Ltd guy@crossflight.co.uk 07973 797819 01753 776104 ******************************************************************* This message contains the views and opinions of a Crossflight Limited employee and at this stage are in no way a direct representation of Crossflight Limited. Crossflight Limited is an international express courier, mailing and logistics service provider. This communication and any attachments are confidential and may be protected from disclosure. We endorse no advice or opinion contained in this communication that is not the subject of a contract between the recipient and ourselves. If you have received it in error please notify us immediately and note that any storage, use or disclosure is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Those communicating with us by electronic mail will be deemed to have accepted the risks associated with interception, amendment, loss and late or incomplete delivery. They will also be deemed to have consented to our intercepting and monitoring such communications. This footnote also confirms that this message has been checked for the presence of computer viruses. We strongly recommend that you check this email with your own virus software as Crossflight Limited will not be held responsible for any damage caused by viruses as a result of opening this email. ******************************************************************* From hyc@symas.com Tue Jan 19 03:02:39 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0JB2cQS045806 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:02:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hyc@symas.com) Received: from lirone.symas.net (lirone.symas.net [64.71.152.235]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0JB2aS9016017 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:02:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from cpe-76-94-188-212.socal.res.rr.com ([76.94.188.212] helo=[192.168.1.21]) by lirone.symas.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NXBr0-000152-Pr; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:02:34 -0800 Message-ID: <4B55915A.6040800@symas.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:02:50 -0800 From: Howard Chu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; rv:1.9.3a1pre) Gecko/20100115 SeaMonkey/2.0a1pre Firefox/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Guy Dawson References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> <906A7DA5-3353-44BA-8419-04CA1442D8B7@ece.cmu.edu> <4B557FE6.40202@crossflight.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4B557FE6.40202@crossflight.co.uk> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] spelling (was: Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:02:39 -0000 Guy Dawson wrote: > On 18/01/2010 21:08, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: > >> This only works when a majority of people spell the word correctly.... > > Which over time is how we define the correct spelling. Not so sure about that. Ever since the printing press, spelling has gotten a lot more uniform. And ever since King James, there's been an authoritative spelling for most things, instead of the mostly ad hoc writing that came before. Today, with the technology to disseminate text exactly, broadly, and reliably retrieve it, it's even easier to codify an authoritative version. Sometimes right/wrong are pretty arbitrary, but overall the distinction has to be observed. Abdicating your language to whatever google says is the most popular is just high-tech mob rule. Every population fits under a bell curve; just because a majority of the population says "this is so" doesn't make them right. It's too bad our society is so heavily oriented toward the least common denominator. Too much focus on profit, and there's no profit in marketing toward the fringe, and it's too hard to try to educate the target audience to push more of them into the upper half of the bell. The inevitable result: everybody gets dumber... > Now time for colourful language? -- -- Howard Chu CTO, Symas Corp. http://www.symas.com Director, Highland Sun http://highlandsun.com/hyc/ Chief Architect, OpenLDAP http://www.openldap.org/project/ From jlp+sage@peterson.ath.cx Tue Jan 19 07:37:56 2010 Received: from web1.premiervanlines.com (web1.premiervanlines.com [68.142.145.202]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0JFbumM052988 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:37:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlp+sage@peterson.ath.cx) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by web1.premiervanlines.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD03D8F806 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:37:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from web1.premiervanlines.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (web1.premiervanlines.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hdZklcvIi8F1 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:37:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from corona (gateway.FREECAKENETWORKS.COM [67.106.37.5]) by web1.premiervanlines.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 922078F7F2 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:37:35 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:37:46 -0700 From: "Jan L. Peterson" To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Message-ID: <20100119083746.68455e74@corona> In-Reply-To: <4B55915A.6040800@symas.com> References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> <906A7DA5-3353-44BA-8419-04CA1442D8B7@ece.cmu.edu> <4B557FE6.40202@crossflight.co.uk> <4B55915A.6040800@symas.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.3 (GTK+ 2.18.3; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] spelling (was: Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:37:56 -0000 On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:02:50 -0800 Howard Chu wrote: > Guy Dawson wrote: > > On 18/01/2010 21:08, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: > > Now time for colourful language? Mark Twain had the definitive answer on this in his short essay on the improvement of English spelling. It's available in the fortune database, but I'll copy it here so everyone doesn't have to go look up how to retrieve a specific fortune from the fortune database :-) A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling by Mark Twain For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all. Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli. Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld. -jan- -- Jan L. Peterson http://www.peterson-tech.com/~jlp/ From John.Miller@oregonmetro.gov Tue Jan 19 07:51:20 2010 Received: from mx1.metro-region.org (mx1.oregonmetro.gov [198.236.242.33]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0JFpKwF053356 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:51:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from John.Miller@oregonmetro.gov) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,303,1262592000"; d="scan'208";a="120723526" Received: from unknown (HELO mex.metro-region.org) ([192.168.10.214]) by ironport1.metro-region.org with ESMTP; 19 Jan 2010 07:51:20 -0800 Received: from MEX.metro-region.org ([192.168.10.214]) by mex ([192.168.10.214]) with mapi; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:51:19 -0800 From: John Miller To: "Jan L. Peterson" Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:51:12 -0800 Thread-Topic: [SAGE] spelling (was: Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS) Thread-Index: AcqZHz1S2vqj0H4eRhKC3UJjkO0hdw== Message-ID: References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> <906A7DA5-3353-44BA-8419-04CA1442D8B7@ece.cmu.edu> <4B557FE6.40202@crossflight.co.uk> <4B55915A.6040800@symas.com> <20100119083746.68455e74@corona> In-Reply-To: <20100119083746.68455e74@corona> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0JFpKwF053356 Cc: "sage-members@mailman.sage.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] spelling (was: Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:51:21 -0000 LOL! JoHN MiLLeR Sent from iPhone Beware of typos and unnoticed auto "corrections"! On Jan 19, 2010, at 7:44 AM, "Jan L. Peterson" wrote: > On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:02:50 -0800 > Howard Chu wrote: >> Guy Dawson wrote: >>> On 18/01/2010 21:08, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: >>> Now time for colourful language? > > Mark Twain had the definitive answer on this in his short essay on the > improvement of English spelling. It's available in the fortune > database, but I'll copy it here so everyone doesn't have to go look up > how to retrieve a specific fortune from the fortune database :-) > > A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling > by Mark Twain > > For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped > to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer > be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained > would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 > might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the > same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with > "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all. > Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear > with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 > or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. > Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi > ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the > maindz > ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli. > Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud > hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld. > > -jan- > -- > Jan L. Peterson > http://www.peterson-tech.com/~jlp/ > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From rskiadmin@chycoski.com Tue Jan 19 07:55:35 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0JFtZsY053471 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:55:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rskiadmin@chycoski.com) Received: from adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.122.242.225]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0JFtWC2022474 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:55:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.72.2] (wizfast.rski.net [192.168.72.2]) by adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o0JFtMAs008333; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:55:22 -0800 Message-ID: <4B55D5EA.3070502@chycoski.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:55:22 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Howard Chu References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> <906A7DA5-3353-44BA-8419-04CA1442D8B7@ece.cmu.edu> <4B557FE6.40202@crossflight.co.uk> <4B55915A.6040800@symas.com> In-Reply-To: <4B55915A.6040800@symas.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] spelling X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:55:36 -0000 Some words do get spelling changes (or accepted variations in spelling) over time, determined by public usage. This is also how new words get added to the language. But I agree that just because a horde of people on Google come up with a new variation, that doesn't make it a valid, new variation. Then there was that group of people in this country (with Mr. Webster as the chief promulgator) who decided that a whole range of words would get an "American" spelling variation - hence colour/color, centre/center, etc. So spelling also changes by fiat. :-) The concept of "correct spelling" is a relatively new one. It didn't come about with the creation of the printing press, but more with the Samuel Johnson's creation of the dictionary. Once there was some sort of definitive reference, it was held up as "the standard" and scholars and teachers started requiring students to conform. The King James bible had many variations between 1611 and 1769, when the most common version that we see these days was first printed. The common spellings for the 8000-ought words were not immutable over that time. - Richard Howard Chu wrote: > Guy Dawson wrote: > >> On 18/01/2010 21:08, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: >> >> >>> This only works when a majority of people spell the word correctly.... >>> >> Which over time is how we define the correct spelling. >> > > Not so sure about that. Ever since the printing press, spelling has gotten a > lot more uniform. And ever since King James, there's been an authoritative > spelling for most things, instead of the mostly ad hoc writing that came > before. Today, with the technology to disseminate text exactly, broadly, and > reliably retrieve it, it's even easier to codify an authoritative version. > > Sometimes right/wrong are pretty arbitrary, but overall the distinction has to > be observed. Abdicating your language to whatever google says is the most > popular is just high-tech mob rule. Every population fits under a bell curve; > just because a majority of the population says "this is so" doesn't make them > right. > > It's too bad our society is so heavily oriented toward the least common > denominator. Too much focus on profit, and there's no profit in marketing > toward the fringe, and it's too hard to try to educate the target audience to > push more of them into the upper half of the bell. The inevitable result: > everybody gets dumber... > > >> Now time for colourful language? >> > > From seph@directionless.org Tue Jan 19 09:16:50 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0JHGnXC054989 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:16:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seph@directionless.org) Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0JHGkQJ024751 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:16:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.internal [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B353CCDD44; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:07:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from heartbeat2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:07:33 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=smtpout; bh=puSd3ljJgKPbFOFjMMUyipMcvbE=; b=mo88dnEEMTmB6/pACowLD5Ejd4RdCmKiLgk7XVTo0AR12wKoZkKBN6+Um7XNrjcpn5eyp0COcq7RDXSPXOh+jYBcDqKloAsvYgUfQ2+q4UWooViA7tUdvAVbMs1yTqGTt85ta7s0Rb6ftckAsPtqYJDw7nAW0L9qfN5K5iEfwC0= X-Sasl-enc: I7ZWmaMM64mZ3LY2jI0ZuMd7cZ6qwg+L6d7uoCmkVTFX 1263920852 Received: from bastion.directionless.org (c-24-128-190-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.128.190.204]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4A2B310D3A; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by bastion.directionless.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:07:31 -0500 From: seph To: Marc Cluet References: Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:07:31 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Marc Cluet's message of "Mon, 18 Jan 2010 17:36:39 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110008 (No Gnus v0.8) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=3% Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 17:16:50 -0000 When I looked at this for $LASTJOB, we settled on dnsmadeeasy.com. They're inexpensive, and I believe using anycast (though I haven't checked). But I wasn't running a high volume website then, so my requirements might be different. I'm still kinda annoyed at ultradns for a really spammy and obnoxious ad campaign from a couple years ago. seph Marc Cluet writes: > Hello list members, > > I have a customer right now that is using UltraDNS as their DNS provider for just one reason, outsourcing DNS queries and being able to withstand a good amount of queries (around 20 million per month) and have a redundant enough platform at affordable prices, UltraDNS is covering our options quite well technically but their prices are high, that's why we're looking for alternatives. > > We want to be sure that > - It is capable of withstand DOS attacks > - It has a proper web interface for managing dns (UltraDNS is a bit shaky) > - It has proper redundancy (multiple locations) > - It has a competitive price > - We use around 20 million queries per month on 4 zones with 300 entries > > I would like to know your experiences about this kind of services. > > Cheers guys, > > -- > Marc Cluet (marc@lynxconsultants.com) > Network and Systems Engineer > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From geer@tinho.net Tue Jan 19 18:18:07 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0K2I6M4066507 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 18:18:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from geer@tinho.net) Received: from absinthe.tinho.net (absinthe.tinho.net [166.84.5.228]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0K2I3Um028971 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 18:18:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by absinthe.tinho.net (Postfix, from userid 126) id 15CB533DD0; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:17:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from absinthe.tinho.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by absinthe.tinho.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13D8033D72; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:17:58 -0500 (EST) From: dan@geer.org To: Richard Chycoski In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:55:22 PST." <4B55D5EA.3070502@chycoski.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:17:58 -0500 Sender: geer@tinho.net Message-Id: <20100120021758.15CB533DD0@absinthe.tinho.net> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] spelling X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 02:18:08 -0000 Richard, If you love words, the book Caught in the Web of Words: James Murray and the Oxford English Dictionary is divine, as is the newsletter Verbatim http://www.verbatimmag.com/ My father was a lover of words and could read the Bible in Greek and Latin alike; best gift I ever gave him was a subscription to Verbatim. His life could be summed up in Nehemiah 8:8, which adorns his grave. --dan From dcspaul@ed.ac.uk Wed Jan 20 23:34:56 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0L7YtSo007182 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 23:34:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcspaul@ed.ac.uk) Received: from nougat.ucs.ed.ac.uk (nougat.ucs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.13.205]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0L7YqqC029049 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 23:34:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from lmtp1.ucs.ed.ac.uk (lmtp1.ucs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.149.64]) by nougat.ucs.ed.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id o0L7Youp006836 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:34:50 GMT Received: from [192.168.93.215] (nine3.demon.co.uk [80.177.111.19]) (authenticated bits=0) by lmtp1.ucs.ed.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o0L7Yiwt012163 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:34:50 GMT From: Paul Anderson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:34:45 +0000 Message-Id: <0AA557C8-3F79-4C57-9916-7FBE19A06865@ed.ac.uk> To: SAGE Members List Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Edinburgh-Scanned: at nougat.ucs.ed.ac.uk with MIMEDefang 2.60, Sophie, Sophos Anti-Virus, Clam AntiVirus X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.60 on 129.215.13.205 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.52 on 129.215.149.64 Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=11% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0L7YtSo007182 Subject: [SAGE] Looking for data on virtual machine performance .. X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:34:56 -0000 Hi All ... I have a student working on a project to see if it is possible to predict anything useful about the performance of individual virtual machines in a cluster, using statistical machine learning techniques. This would potentially lead to better algorithms for placing and migrating VMs. So, I'm looking for real data about the performance of clusters of VMs. Things like per-vm cpu load, memory usage and network usage at regular intervals. Does anyone have anything like this that they would be prepared to let us have? Many Thanks Paul Anderson -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From ddulek@fastenal.com Thu Jan 21 06:09:17 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0LE9Gj1015744 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 06:09:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ddulek@fastenal.com) Received: from will.fastenal.com (will.fastenal.com [205.243.112.23]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0LE9DLI017099 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 06:09:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from EXCFE02.Fastenal.com (unknown [172.16.89.32]) by will.fastenal.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 168EB34095; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:51:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from excmb03.fastenal.com ([172.16.104.85]) by EXCFE02.Fastenal.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:51:15 -0600 Received: from 192.168.22.7 ([192.168.22.7]) by ExcMB03.fastenal.com ([172.16.104.85]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.fastenal.com ([172.16.89.32]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:51:15 +0000 Received: from sadmin03 by webmail.fastenal.com; 21 Jan 2010 07:51:15 -0600 From: David Dulek To: Paul Anderson In-Reply-To: <0AA557C8-3F79-4C57-9916-7FBE19A06865@ed.ac.uk> References: <0AA557C8-3F79-4C57-9916-7FBE19A06865@ed.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:51:14 -0600 Message-ID: <1264081874.15983.2.camel@sadmin03> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.1 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jan 2010 13:51:15.0788 (UTC) FILETIME=[CCFA48C0:01CA9AA0] X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: SMEX-8.0.0.1181-6.000.1038-17112.000 X-TM-AS-Result: No--16.793000-8.000000-31 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0LE9Gj1015744 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for data on virtual machine performance .. X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 14:09:18 -0000 There is a commercial product that I really liked that I believe does what you ask. www.akorri.com There product is called BalancePoint. On Thu, 2010-01-21 at 07:34 +0000, Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi All ... > > I have a student working on a project to see if it is possible to predict anything useful > about the performance of individual virtual machines in a cluster, using statistical machine > learning techniques. This would potentially lead to better algorithms for placing and > migrating VMs. > > So, I'm looking for real data about the performance of clusters of VMs. Things like > per-vm cpu load, memory usage and network usage at regular intervals. > > Does anyone have anything like this that they would be prepared to let us have? > > Many Thanks > > Paul Anderson > > -- David Dulek Storage Administration Lead Fastenal Company E-mail: ddulek@fastenal.com Phone: (507) 313-7033 Fax: (507) 453-8333 From richard.dakin@ccci.org Sat Jan 23 10:11:54 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NIBsJb061266 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:11:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from richard.dakin@ccci.org) Received: from mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com (mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com [208.84.65.127]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NIBof5022385 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:11:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (pph40730 [127.0.0.1]) by mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with SMTP id o0NIAXXY025047 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:11:50 -0500 Received: from hart-edge2.ccci.org ([72.159.180.78]) by mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id kf13ek5ts-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:11:50 -0500 Received: from HART-E013V.net.ccci.org (10.10.11.4) by HART-EDGE2.ccci.org (172.16.1.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.393.1; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:11:49 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:11:35 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Tone in text communications Thread-Index: AcqcV3+pwVUzeRkkSImFnzqtzCsnIQ== From: Richard Dakin To: SAGE Members List X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2010-01-23_03:2010-01-20, 2010-01-23, 2010-01-23 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1001230148 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:11:54 -0000 Recently we have been discussing "tone" in emails. Personally I do not think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. Some of my counterparts hold a differing opinion. Perhaps individuals read text and imagine the writer is speaking aloud to them in a certain manner. Seems to me if added expression, emphasis, or emotion were the intent of the writer then they would use the appropriate punctuations. Please use the following sentence as an example and let me know what you think. Does it have tonal qualities? How does it "sound" to you? =20 If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is done using secretive censored fascist dictatorial leadership or treating people like exploitable disposable objectified tasks on your checklist for personal gain, then please do not contact me.=20 From nhruby@gmail.com Sat Jan 23 10:33:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NIXW4e061519 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:33:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nhruby@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iw0-f202.google.com (mail-iw0-f202.google.com [209.85.223.202]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NIXTIA022793 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:33:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by iwn40 with SMTP id 40so1327348iwn.2 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:33:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=44I0/3ztORgY5CxmP8nuem/ilughNFAjw+CmqiwLHuw=; b=IKaDTGe0jMYy6bYSHvi5ww1FX9Lcy9I1xLwSBbaLJDm4O3Ce0lXyEmQoJlS3lq9flv DB889z+CBtQHB9Y6m2wPaWKZlosisBrNVlSAfhzC9/csC3wc/xGfAql5wpHR0NeyOEbi YpqAwuZPC7cegqSOrbiWKPH4KfnHiE9SEs5a8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=cv3ckHeCkC6+9qIpiFhuUVVop1cG98QiHF010yuCMNVUi6Dk8gqGJbAKKLjJ7JcVGv nON2aSPeGQ/bbBezxMklAXetOGIMaTRazkHYZEwD1LGPOk4c9S8+AKCI36YEMgCdo2M9 vxCbL3OAY8kOxzqnKzgMtuOKQQvU3/2qiFTbY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: nhruby@gmail.com Received: by 10.231.144.201 with SMTP id a9mr530718ibv.69.1264271603880; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:33:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:33:23 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4f3d005f4f7fae34 Message-ID: From: Nathan Hruby To: Richard Dakin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:33:33 -0000 On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 12:11 PM, Richard Dakin wrote: > Recently we have been discussing "tone" in emails. Personally I do not > think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. Some of my > counterparts hold a differing opinion. Perhaps individuals read text and > imagine the writer is speaking aloud to them in a certain manner. Seems > to me if added expression, emphasis, or emotion were the intent of the > writer then they would use the appropriate punctuations. Please use the > following sentence as an example and let me know what you think. Does it > have tonal qualities? How does it "sound" to you? > > > > If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is done > using secretive censored fascist dictatorial leadership or treating > people like exploitable disposable objectified tasks on your checklist > for personal gain, then please do not contact me. Tone, I think, has nothing to do with it. The plain words in that statement read as a personal attack to me. They are not professional, they are not polite, and they are not helpful to broaden the discussion on a topic. -n -- ------------------------------------------- nathan hruby metaphysically wrinkle-free ------------------------------------------- From asher.yanich@gmail.com Sat Jan 23 10:33:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NIXihW061528 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:33:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asher.yanich@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f53.google.com (mail-pw0-f53.google.com [209.85.160.53]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NIXfF0022796 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:33:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwi4 with SMTP id 4so1464087pwi.12 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:33:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=3Iqq6KXMnreH63g2dz1H5y1ta2qHjdQHiyGp8ScNKEw=; b=wpgtuor/AxJLFa4khKsPQ/oV12Uc9oMwfeF6tRPTWFsT2wsrUx5WWJgQoo2FTA4+4x 4EcRDzPPv7ijxjSDSRGr0PSpa4tTvbsx6BjT7IQUbRKym0KcgKA82osbh0ua/3HgMRzR Xhj6+SXTBah5CxXlWOa32oBX0NwpUsvFtx3Xk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=Jw4tDOTyg6rjvFpu1xJdhiAny7PBAdNTsgdzLGjM+1nd3fVeMTBhOCbsNQENXL3iwi JRIf1fs7NeMXtbnlTrltKXPE36bk+mXZIiqYC6sVop+88goAk7zQv4s0fIjLyW8IgCnA OXo7y75tEfIHNwav54QfWAWiqYAzzCspzy3EU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.236.3 with SMTP id j3mr3073348wah.130.1264271616169; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:33:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:33:36 -0800 Message-ID: From: Asher Yanich To: Richard Dakin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=15% Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:33:44 -0000 So, there is clearly tone that you can get from email, and some of it comes from the choice of words, connotation, denotation, use of formality, phrasing, declarative statements. There is also the concept of kairos which comes into play when writing as well. I often find that many highly technical people do not end up as successful as you would think they should be due to their inability to communicate well. As to the phrase below, the language is firm, there is no room for discussion, it comes off as defensive, childish and angry. cheers, -asher On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Richard Dakin wrote: > Recently we have been discussing "tone" in emails. Personally I do not > think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. Some of my > counterparts hold a differing opinion. Perhaps individuals read text and > imagine the writer is speaking aloud to them in a certain manner. Seems > to me if added expression, emphasis, or emotion were the intent of the > writer then they would use the appropriate punctuations. Please use the > following sentence as an example and let me know what you think. Does it > have tonal qualities? How does it "sound" to you? > > > > If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is done > using secretive censored fascist dictatorial leadership or treating > people like exploitable disposable objectified tasks on your checklist > for personal gain, then please do not contact me. > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From cat@reptiles.org Sat Jan 23 10:38:51 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NIcpOl061626 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:38:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cat@reptiles.org) Received: from mailbox.reptiles.org (rootgecko.reptiles.org@[198.96.210.227]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NIcmuT023319 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:38:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from (invalid client hostname: the DNS A record for the hostname 'www.reptiles.ca' does not match the address [198.96.210.227])www.reptiles.ca ([198.96.210.227] port=58775) by mailbox.reptiles.org([198.96.210.227] port=25) via TCP with esmtp (3733 bytes) (sender: ) (ident using UNIX) id for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:38:46 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.121 2005-Nov-17 #4 built 2006-Nov-28) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:38:45 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Richard Dakin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:38:52 -0000 On Sat, 23 Jan 2010, Richard Dakin wrote: > Recently we have been discussing "tone" in emails. Personally I do not > think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. Some of my > counterparts hold a differing opinion. Perhaps individuals read text and > imagine the writer is speaking aloud to them in a certain manner. Seems > to me if added expression, emphasis, or emotion were the intent of the > writer then they would use the appropriate punctuations. Please use the > following sentence as an example and let me know what you think. Does it > have tonal qualities? How does it "sound" to you? I think that you're falling into one of the common geek fallacies, which can be summarized as: "What I said was correct, why are people upset?" Whether we like it or not, social grease matters, and it's important to be aware of how your communication style is understood and received by others. Moving on to you question, as somebody that doesn't usually hear voices when reading, I can't say that I consider tone to be a function of how a given sentence would sound when read out loud. In email, tone is a function of word choice and context first, with punctuation (correct, incorrect or lacking) having more of an effect on legibility and emphasis. In fact, I'd have to say that you're decidedly mistaken in thinking that tone isn't conveyed by choice of words. Your sample below is an excellent example of using word choice to convey tone. > If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is done > using secretive censored fascist dictatorial leadership or treating > people like exploitable disposable objectified tasks on your checklist > for personal gain, then please do not contact me. To be more specific, this example uses a number of 'hot button' words (secretive, censored, fascist, dictatorial, exploitable, disposable, objectified), which typically trigger a knee-jerk (and usually negative, particularly in the contexts above) reaction. The following sentence conveys similar information with fewer hot button words, and doubtless has a different (although still somewhat negative) tone... "If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is mysterious and challenging, please do not contact me." If you then turned the sentence around, to something like: "Please contact me if you're interested in IT risk mitigation services using well-researched, practiced and routinely reviewed methodologies" You've got yet another similar sentence with a completely different (and more positive) tone. cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From pc@pcable.net Sat Jan 23 10:58:07 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NIw6GC061967 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:58:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pc@pcable.net) Received: from mail-yw0-f173.google.com (mail-yw0-f173.google.com [209.85.211.173]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NIw3Wv023848 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:58:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by ywh3 with SMTP id 3so1866018ywh.22 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:57:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.91.122.9 with SMTP id z9mr2209227agm.20.1264273078146; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:57:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:57:58 -0500 Message-ID: <1d30d2691001231057v2e57e9c5pe1ed345084869161@mail.gmail.com> From: Patrick Cable To: Richard Dakin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:58:07 -0000 > Recently we have been discussing "tone" in emails. Personally I do not > think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. Some of my > counterparts hold a differing opinion. This kind of stuff fascinates me. What are their arguments for believing that emails have tone? What are your responses to these arguments? > Perhaps individuals read text and > imagine the writer is speaking aloud to them in a certain manner. Seems > to me if added expression, emphasis, or emotion were the intent of the > writer then they would use the appropriate punctuations. What about context? What about word choice? We write for an audience, and we change what we write based on what we think about our audience. What I choose to write or say to a friend, will be different than what I choose to write or say to a coworker, and will be different than what i choose to write or say to my mom, or a significant other... > Does it have tonal qualities? How does it "sound" to you? To me, it absolutely does. The choice of words, the choice of phrasing ("secretive censored fascist dictatorial leadership," "exploitable disposable objectified tasks") interests me in that it would seem that the writer is just writing it to... write it; to put it out there. It's completely un-constructive. If I received something like this, I would probably show it to my coworkers (I might print it out and put it up in my small cube area), write the other party off as being an idiot, and then delete it from my inbox. Alternatively, if the writer wanted to make an actual impact and wrote something constructive... that changes everything. If I got an email with actual concrete examples of a problem... I'd want to work with that person and engage my team in a discussion, at the very least to evaluate what the differences are between writer and reader. Nathan has a great point, it does nothing to "broaden the discussion on a topic." Not that all communication needs to, but the writer has clearly drawn a line in the sand. - This is why my brain (almost literally) explodes when I heard classmates in undergrad say "Well, why do we have to take stuff like english and technical communications? It doesn't matter! It's not relevant!" It absolutely does matter. And I'd argue that knowing these skills makes someone that much more valuable to $employer. -pc From levins@westnet.com Sat Jan 23 11:05:43 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NJ5hsd062117 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:05:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from levins@westnet.com) Received: from westnet.com (root@westnet.com [216.187.52.2]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NJ5eQW024014 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:05:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from westnet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id o0NJ5dtE023738 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:05:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (levins@localhost) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.13.2/Submit) with ESMTP id o0NJ5dO7023734 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:05:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:05:39 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Levin To: SAGE Members List In-Reply-To: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> Message-ID: References: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:05:44 -0000 On Sat, 23 Jan 2010, Cat Okita wrote: >> If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is done >> using secretive censored fascist dictatorial leadership or treating >> people like exploitable disposable objectified tasks on your checklist >> for personal gain, then please do not contact me. > > > "If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is > mysterious and challenging, please do not contact me." > > If you then turned the sentence around, to something like: > > "Please contact me if you're interested in IT risk mitigation > services using well-researched, practiced and routinely > reviewed methodologies" > > You've got yet another similar sentence with a completely different (and > more positive) tone. Sadly, too many people these days tend to consider their opinions as clear and inarguable fact, and present it that way. Also, I see people all too often unable to understand or sympathise with the opposing viewpoint, and using rhetoric to cement their point. It's so depressing. I agree with the others that the language used in the original example is loaded language and conveys an angry attitude. The original writer of the line in question would have been better off saying something to the effect of: "I find it difficult to discuss IT risk mitigation with people who believe in using strong-handed tactics or rudely treating people as objects, and I've experience a lot of that lately, so I try to avoid discussions that head in that direction. I would be happy to discuss the subject in terms of well-researched, practiced and routinely-reviewed methodologies." Now, I'm not a particularly politically-correct person, and believe in using clear, plain language when possible to convey feelings for others to understand. That can get me in trouble, but the key (and difficult) part is doing so without being rude and condescending. -Adam Ps: As a funny and related aside, I originally wrote "The original speaker" as opposed to "The original writer" above. It's so easy to fall into the trap of using email as a conversation instead of written correspondence, and I think that's where some of the complexity of this discussion arises. From phred@frii.com Sat Jan 23 11:13:58 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NJDw6s062261 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:13:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phred@frii.com) Received: from smtp01.frii.com (smtp01.frii.com [216.17.135.167]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NJDtl4024325 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:13:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from vw.elizabeth.street (phred.dsl.frii.net [216.17.139.237]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp01.frii.com (FRII) with ESMTP id 3AD5BEA768; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:53:48 -0700 (MST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ray Frush In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:53:47 -0700 Message-Id: <5511A6FC-E691-4187-81AD-C8987604F57E@frii.com> References: To: Richard Dakin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=12% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0NJDw6s062261 Cc: SAGE Members Mailing List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:13:58 -0000 I firmly believe that e-mail is capable of expressing "tone". I know this because my co-workers can tell what mood I'm in by the "tone" of my e-mail responses. When I get terse, it usually means I'm stressed out. When I'm making a point that I'm passionate about, I often get very verbose. I suppose that the perceived "tone" of a message may require context of an ongoing conversation with the author in order for the recipient to notice differences. In the example below, I detect a tone. The author definitely has an attitude about IT risk mitigation based on some recent experiences. There's a lot of bitterness expressed in this sentence. From how it is written it sounds like a sentence from a posting from the author looking for a job or contract. In that context, if I were a hiring manager, I'd avoid this person. It's one thing to express frustration with current management to your friends / professional coach / etc, but if you're offering your services, this kind of vitriol does not pass on a good impression. -- Ray Frush On Jan 23, 2010, at 11:11 AM, Richard Dakin wrote: > Please use the > following sentence as an example and let me know what you think. Does it > have tonal qualities? How does it "sound" to you? > > > > If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is done > using secretive censored fascist dictatorial leadership or treating > people like exploitable disposable objectified tasks on your checklist > for personal gain, then please do not contact me. From doug@will.to Sat Jan 23 11:36:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NJa8bZ062560 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:36:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NJa4KI024899 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:36:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.53] (h-68-164-136-126.nycmny83.static.covad.net [68.164.136.126]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id o0NJa0re005504 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:36:03 -0500 Message-ID: <4B5B4F9E.2010106@will.to> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:35:58 -0500 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1d30d2691001231057v2e57e9c5pe1ed345084869161@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1d30d2691001231057v2e57e9c5pe1ed345084869161@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0rc3 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:36:04 -0500 (EST) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:36:09 -0000 >> Recently we have been discussing "tone" in emails. Personally I do not >> think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. Some of my >> counterparts hold a differing opinion. >> Do novels contain tone? After all, they are just words on paper.. I think you'll find it preposterous to argue that they don't. There is no 'inflection' to be sure, unless so noted, but word choices and sentence structure and [in]formality matter, as Cat so elegantly pointed out. From trey@lopsa.org Sat Jan 23 11:56:00 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NJtxtW062829 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:56:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from trey@lopsa.org) Received: from sangha.cyberius.net (sangha.cyberius.net [208.75.57.115]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NJtvAh025325 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sangha.cyberius.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16A7C2FDBF1 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:48:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at sangha.cyberius.net Received: from sangha.cyberius.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (sangha.cyberius.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pm2bQAf9HVYk for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:48:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by sangha.cyberius.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A2F02FDBD2 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:48:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:48:40 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris Sender: trey@sangha.cyberius.net To: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <5511A6FC-E691-4187-81AD-C8987604F57E@frii.com> Message-ID: References: <5511A6FC-E691-4187-81AD-C8987604F57E@frii.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="1271952185-1801327584-1264276096=:5584" Content-ID: X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:56:00 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --1271952185-1801327584-1264276096=:5584 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; FORMAT=flowed; CHARSET=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Content-ID: If I may put in a linguist's oar-- "Tone" is a term that means much to the layman, but little to a linguist. (The same goes for "accent", in terms of the sound of a dialect versus the term for phonetic stress.) Instead, we talk about "prosody", or "prosodic features". These are characteristics found in the way someone speaks apart from the grammar and word choices they make. The sound, tone (in languages in which tone is not used to distinguish phonemes), rhythm, pauses, and so on, are what go into prosody. These prosodic features are usually used for discursive purposes: to color the speech, to display emotion, to strengthen or weaken the default meaning of the words used. Mastery of word choice and prosody are the two biggest factors that go into judging writing as craft or artistry. In modern Western language, we have only two ways generally to present prosody in written form: punctuation and typography (mostly italics, boldface, and underline). Online speech has added the emoticon in the casual form. Some writers write or read prosodically (they "hear words"), some do not. Word choice does much to inform the reader of the prosody intended by the writer, but can also give discursive clues to a reader who does not interpret prosody. Punctuation does even more, especially for the "oral reader" (this is a term I'm making up, I'm sure there's a term of art for someone who hears the sound of words in their head when they read). Some people have a marked deficiency in making proper prosodic and word-choice decisions, or in interpreting them when used by someone else. This is especially well-known in autism spectrum disorders or certain specific learning disabilities. It's one of the least debilitating traits of these disorders, however, so it's very probable that you interact with such people in your work life. This is not a boolean question, though--can someone detect what you call "tone", or can't they; does it exist in writing, or doesn't it. It exists to the extent that the writer detects and can translate it into writing, and to the extent that the reader understands it. If you can do it well, you have a leg up on those who can't, but you have to communicate with everyone regardless of their ability to do the same. I think of prosody (spoken or written) as an extra tool that will help get the point across of the "bare words", but that can't stand on its own. -- Trey Ethan Harris (/t͡ʃreɪ ˈiËθən ˈhÉ›rÉ™s/) http://www.lopsa.org/ President, LOPSA -- The League of Professional System Administrators Opinions expressed above are not necessarily those of LOPSA. --1271952185-1801327584-1264276096=:5584-- From richard.dakin@ccci.org Sat Jan 23 12:12:31 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NKCUjB063154 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:12:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from richard.dakin@ccci.org) Received: from mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com (mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com [208.84.65.127]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NKCRkn025677 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (pph41414 [127.0.0.1]) by pph41414.pph.sfo.proofpoint.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with SMTP id o0NKBR33000789 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:12:27 -0500 Received: from hart-edge2.ccci.org ([72.159.180.78]) by pph41414.pph.sfo.proofpoint.com with ESMTP id ketp68eh3-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:12:27 -0500 Received: from HART-E013V.net.ccci.org (10.10.11.4) by HART-EDGE2.ccci.org (172.16.1.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.393.1; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:12:25 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:12:09 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Tone in text communications Thread-Index: AcqcX+h4Y+1LNpj4R8KbBux6FsOXugABT6pA References: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> From: Richard Dakin To: SAGE Members List X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2010-01-23_03:2010-01-20, 2010-01-23, 2010-01-23 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1001230175 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0NKCUjB063154 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:12:31 -0000 We are fascinated by this topic as well. How many times have I read a text correspondence and thought...hmmm what is really being communicated? What is the real motive, thought, and intent of the heart behind this correspondence? I have also heard many of my colleagues respond to a message with "who do they think they are?" and "what are they trying to say"? At times they are offended by correspondence that is intended to be constructive and buildup instead of tear down and criticize. I read the same correspondence and see it differently. It is very odd. "Tone" in my limited understanding refers to quality, pitch, or volume. Auditory properties and values. Is there another more appropriate English word to use when dealing with text correspondence? Written English seems so limiting in expression and difficult if not used with proper structure and punctuation. Do the writers of technical text correspondence that have tonal languages (East Asian dialects) as their primary language have added or differing difficulties? How will sysadmin's in repressive regimes communicate appropriately about the need for positive change if they are not to call fascism fascism or exploitation exploitation? How can we better email/text/twitter/shout out to persons using English as a second language so they do not misunderstand and we do not misunderstand? I see many of the same things in the sentence used as reference. A lot of hot button adjectives. But I wonder about what is behind the angst? Is it a warped perception or is it a brutal reality? Does the individual wish to eliminate contact by those that would be offended as a filter mechanism? Would a company, school, or person that uses people like objects for selfish gain even know or care that this remark was directed towards them? Probably not! Is there a niche consultancy market in the field of "Appropriate Text Based Communications Training"? lol When I get a confusing text correspondence that seems to have a "tone" directed at me I usually seek the aid of trusted others to make sure I am not "reading into it" and for perspective. Do English as a second language individuals need to do this? Do they need to do it more frequently? Well I am busy with another SOA Suite install. Thanks for your great replies. I appreciate Usenix/SAGE and our community of passionate caring professionals. -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Adam Levin Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 2:06 PM To: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications On Sat, 23 Jan 2010, Cat Okita wrote: >> If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is done >> using secretive censored fascist dictatorial leadership or treating >> people like exploitable disposable objectified tasks on your checklist >> for personal gain, then please do not contact me. > > > "If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is > mysterious and challenging, please do not contact me." > > If you then turned the sentence around, to something like: > > "Please contact me if you're interested in IT risk mitigation > services using well-researched, practiced and routinely > reviewed methodologies" > > You've got yet another similar sentence with a completely different (and > more positive) tone. Sadly, too many people these days tend to consider their opinions as clear and inarguable fact, and present it that way. Also, I see people all too often unable to understand or sympathise with the opposing viewpoint, and using rhetoric to cement their point. It's so depressing. I agree with the others that the language used in the original example is loaded language and conveys an angry attitude. The original writer of the line in question would have been better off saying something to the effect of: "I find it difficult to discuss IT risk mitigation with people who believe in using strong-handed tactics or rudely treating people as objects, and I've experience a lot of that lately, so I try to avoid discussions that head in that direction. I would be happy to discuss the subject in terms of well-researched, practiced and routinely-reviewed methodologies." Now, I'm not a particularly politically-correct person, and believe in using clear, plain language when possible to convey feelings for others to understand. That can get me in trouble, but the key (and difficult) part is doing so without being rude and condescending. -Adam Ps: As a funny and related aside, I originally wrote "The original speaker" as opposed to "The original writer" above. It's so easy to fall into the trap of using email as a conversation instead of written correspondence, and I think that's where some of the complexity of this discussion arises. _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From timetrap@gmail.com Sat Jan 23 12:52:46 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NKqk1k063656 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:52:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f53.google.com (mail-pw0-f53.google.com [209.85.160.53]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NKqhOc026590 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwi4 with SMTP id 4so1501095pwi.12 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:52:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=ISMC/vJxkusjrZ3bKuk0ptkVGnDGNXPS7mJP7t462mQ=; b=t0+KED+soLJd/f19F4PNow5pQI3zv9FPUhZ6vGUTFCeIb10D7Z7hinmSs2rDCaMO47 uxUKGqgkg5ABZsieTwdv81pNHL6h2vVJTZaJyWwrqXTh0+ifzhayCvClkQARGCDZ3GVB UpsPvunF/GcYtCCpIGw/TQwmdslTzuTYZoZ7A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=OVsU6vk10m+TpUTyuMkMGLDRffgxSaMfNKbY+z4xlzw6TlW8sdkdSMyxmkM4hX3okO df8DbbziMQO4nTjJQgt1kX6DJ2WcleRGm30hzRF14oRKudpprI+RFIDRt9irgvOlgj2w +Qa4i75bv4lSp3h7SBRkGkMiqiI/r0ZKngjw4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.152.17 with SMTP id z17mr2848157wfd.45.1264279957986; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:52:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B5B4F9E.2010106@will.to> References: <1d30d2691001231057v2e57e9c5pe1ed345084869161@mail.gmail.com> <4B5B4F9E.2010106@will.to> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:52:37 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: f24be56195626f80 Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: Doug Hughes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=15% Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:52:46 -0000 Even though this is a giant run-on sentence, and the author needlessly repeats themselves. Here's how it sounded in my head: If YOU think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is done using SECRETIVE CENSORED FASCIST DICTATORIAL "leadership" or treating people like EXPLOITABLE DISPOSABLE OBJECTIFIED TASKS on your checklist for PERSONAL GAIN, then please DO NOT contact me. Ad hominem without a doubt. Rewriting it, I would do something like this: Successful risk mitigation can only be accomplished through the successful integration and education of all involved. Everyone has a stake in this process, excluding people and treating them like disposable parts of a machine undermines our efforts and denies us the value of their full talent. Leaders cannot (and must not) treat those under them as disposable pieces of a machine. Knowledge work (by extension IT) is executed only through the education and willing participation of those involved. We have no other assets apart from our people. Until you understand this you will never be a valued member of any team. Please do not contact me further regarding this project or any other. See? Tone means everything. On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Doug Hughes wrote: > >>> Recently we have been discussing "tone" in emails. Personally I do not >>> think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. Some of my >>> counterparts hold a differing opinion. >>> > > Do novels contain tone? After all, they are just words on paper.. I think > you'll find it preposterous to argue that they don't. There is no > 'inflection' to be sure, unless so noted, but word choices and sentence > structure and [in]formality matter, as Cat so elegantly pointed out. > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From rmilner@nmt.edu Sat Jan 23 15:05:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NN5iRq065176 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:05:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rmilner@nmt.edu) Received: from mailhost.nmt.edu (mailhost.nmt.edu [129.138.4.52]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NN5flP028612 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:05:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (spamhost4 [129.138.4.146]) by localhost.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D34524F158 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:05:36 -0700 (MST) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.4.3 (20060930) (RHEL AS) at nmt.edu Received: from mailhost.nmt.edu ([129.138.4.52]) by localhost (spamhost6.nmt.edu [129.138.4.146]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vUwcQPAOgxwh; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:05:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.0.4] (75-161-116-207.albq.qwest.net [75.161.116.207]) by mailhost.nmt.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42EC424EE30; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:05:31 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4B5B80BA.2000408@nmt.edu> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:05:30 -0700 From: Ruth Milner User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=82% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: rmilner@nmt.edu List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 23:05:45 -0000 Richard Dakin wrote: > When I get a confusing text correspondence that seems to have a "tone" > directed at me Say what? In your first message you wrote: > Personally I do not think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. It sounds like you do in fact detect "tone" in at least some email, but perhaps can't quite analyze where it came from. Might this be considered a linguistic form of "tone-deafness"? :-) Ruth From richard.dakin@ccci.org Sat Jan 23 15:19:33 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NNJWVA065354 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:19:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from richard.dakin@ccci.org) Received: from mx0a-000cec01.pphosted.com (mx0a-000cec01.pphosted.com [67.231.144.127]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NNJTEl028841 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:19:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0000157 [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000cec01.pphosted.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with SMTP id o0NNBLtm024939; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:19:28 -0500 Received: from hart-edge2.ccci.org ([72.159.180.78]) by mx0a-000cec01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id kfu92fqnx-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:19:28 -0500 Received: from HART-E013V.net.ccci.org (10.10.11.4) by HART-EDGE2.ccci.org (172.16.1.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.393.1; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:19:26 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:19:02 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4B5B80BA.2000408@nmt.edu> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Tone in text communications Thread-Index: AcqcgWGpkcm32IIaRfOZ5VMwz+Yp/AAAOkYQ References: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> <4B5B80BA.2000408@nmt.edu> From: Richard Dakin To: , X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2010-01-23_03:2010-01-20, 2010-01-23, 2010-01-23 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1001230211 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0NNJWVA065354 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 23:19:33 -0000 I do have to sit behind the deaf section on Sunday Morning. :) -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Ruth Milner Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 6:06 PM To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications Richard Dakin wrote: > When I get a confusing text correspondence that seems to have a "tone" > directed at me Say what? In your first message you wrote: > Personally I do not think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. It sounds like you do in fact detect "tone" in at least some email, but perhaps can't quite analyze where it came from. Might this be considered a linguistic form of "tone-deafness"? :-) Ruth _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From richard.dakin@ccci.org Sat Jan 23 15:30:41 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NNUfRG065525 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:30:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from richard.dakin@ccci.org) Received: from mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com (mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com [208.84.65.127]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NNUcL3028997 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (pph40730 [127.0.0.1]) by mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with SMTP id o0NNLQ1o021462 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:30:38 -0500 Received: from hart-edge2.ccci.org ([72.159.180.78]) by mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id kf13en9gq-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:30:37 -0500 Received: from HART-E013V.net.ccci.org (10.10.11.4) by HART-EDGE2.ccci.org (172.16.1.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.393.1; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:30:35 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:30:10 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Tone in text communications Thread-Index: AcqcgWGpkcm32IIaRfOZ5VMwz+Yp/AAAOkYQAABL8AA= References: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> <4B5B80BA.2000408@nmt.edu> From: Richard Dakin To: X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2010-01-23_03:2010-01-20, 2010-01-23, 2010-01-23 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1001230212 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0NNUfRG065525 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 23:30:42 -0000 You know last Sunday I could have sworn the person doing the American Sign Language in front of the hearing impaired section had a "tone" in her fingers. :) I do have to sit behind the deaf section on Sunday Morning. :) -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Ruth Milner Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 6:06 PM To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications Richard Dakin wrote: > When I get a confusing text correspondence that seems to have a "tone" > directed at me Say what? In your first message you wrote: > Personally I do not think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. It sounds like you do in fact detect "tone" in at least some email, but perhaps can't quite analyze where it came from. Might this be considered a linguistic form of "tone-deafness"? :-) Ruth _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From dnb@ccs.neu.edu Sat Jan 23 17:40:12 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0O1eB8x067113 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:40:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dnb@ccs.neu.edu) Received: from zimbra.ccs.neu.edu (zimbra.ccs.neu.edu [129.10.116.59]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0O1e8PG000903 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:40:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.ccs.neu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08240970610 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:40:08 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.ccs.neu.edu Received: from zimbra.ccs.neu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.ccs.neu.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id phX4InpFJeoB for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:40:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.0.9] (c-24-218-125-32.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.218.125.32]) by zimbra.ccs.neu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8B86970521 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:40:01 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) From: "David N. Blank-Edelman" In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:40:01 -0500 Message-Id: <1AF58632-9DF4-4896-9F28-B4B2755833CF@ccs.neu.edu> References: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> <4B5B80BA.2000408@nmt.edu> To: SAGE Members X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager; whitelist Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0O1eB8x067113 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 01:40:12 -0000 On Jan 23, 2010, at 6:30 PM, Richard Dakin wrote: > You know last Sunday I could have sworn the person doing the American > Sign Language in front of the hearing impaired section had a "tone" in > her fingers. :) Without sending this discussion careening in another direction, I can say from my experience as someone who has started learning ASL that if the interpreter was doing his or her job correctly, there was definitely a tone being conveyed (not to mention a register). I can also tell you that people are considered to have regional accents in ASL as well (e.g. New Yorkers are known for being fast talkers). There's a tremendous amount of nuance in the language and how it is spoken. -- dNb From rskiadmin@chycoski.com Sat Jan 23 17:53:47 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0O1rlpw067236 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:53:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rskiadmin@chycoski.com) Received: from adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.122.242.225]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0O1riMn001219 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:53:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.72.2] (wizfast.rski.net [192.168.72.2]) by adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o0O1rawd025287; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:53:37 -0800 Message-ID: <4B5BA820.3070607@chycoski.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:53:36 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Dakin References: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> <4B5B80BA.2000408@nmt.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 01:53:48 -0000 ASL is another language that is quite full of expressiveness, at least as rich as face-to-face vocal communication. If you've never seen two people arguing in ASL, I can tell you that emotion and 'tone' come across VERY well, even to a non-ASL-cognisant individual! Words on a page do not have all of the same conduits of expression, but they certainly have a set of their own, if often misunderstood and (often unintentionally) misused. I've had to send out 'oops' messages on occasion after rereading my own missives a while after sending them - but most people on this list are probably not surprised at that fact. :-) Take: Get your filthy, greasy, paws off my stack you lily-livered scum-sucking excuse for a homo not-so-sapiens. vs Please don't touch my delicate stack, it is easily broken. These don't "sound" different to you? They certainly give me a different 'tone' (yah, that's not the correct technical term, but like most professions, the general public doesn't really understand the 'correct' ones). The use of ad hominem comments in the first should certainly convey a rather negative 'tone', whereas the latter should convey a much more polite 'tone'. As in: Don't take that tone with me! vs Don't use that prosody with me! (And I've probably managed to misuse both terms. Ha.) - Richard Richard Dakin wrote: > You know last Sunday I could have sworn the person doing the American > Sign Language in front of the hearing impaired section had a "tone" in > her fingers. :) > > > I do have to sit behind the deaf section on Sunday Morning. :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org > [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Ruth Milner > Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 6:06 PM > To: sage-members@usenix.org > Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications > > Richard Dakin wrote: > > When I get a confusing text correspondence that seems to have a > "tone" > > directed at me > > Say what? In your first message you wrote: > > > Personally I do not think simple text in emails contain tonal > qualities. > > It sounds like you do in fact detect "tone" in at least some email, but > perhaps can't quite analyze where it came from. Might this be considered > a linguistic form of "tone-deafness"? :-) > > Ruth > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Sat Jan 23 22:25:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0O6PiRF070901 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:25:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toq4-srv.bellnexxia.net (toq4.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.24]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0O6Peph005744 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:25:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from toip3.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.86]) by tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100124053801.MJED1958.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip3.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Sun, 24 Jan 2010 00:38:01 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgEBAC1qW0tMQR4r/2dsb2JhbAAI1GOEOwQ Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279335979.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.65.30.43]) by toip3.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 24 Jan 2010 00:27:00 -0500 Message-Id: From: David Magda To: Joseph Kern In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 00:38:00 -0500 References: <1d30d2691001231057v2e57e9c5pe1ed345084869161@mail.gmail.com> <4B5B4F9E.2010106@will.to> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE list Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 06:25:44 -0000 On Jan 23, 2010, at 15:52, Joseph Kern wrote: > Leaders cannot (and must not) treat those under them as disposable > pieces of a machine. Except that they can and do. :) Your missive (especially the first paragraph) is a nice touchy-feely take on things, and has the "social grease" that Cat Okita mentioned, but if I would read it I would classify it as PC BS meant to coddle me. At least in original message Richard Darkin sent along I'd be pretty sure that the writer is expressing their true feelings in an efficient manner; one where I don't have to waste time parsing the words trying to figure out what they "really meant". Perhaps I'm more logical and less empathetic than the average person, but personally I'd rather people tell me things honesty so I can take it in, decide if there are any actions that need to be done with the new information, and then move on with my life once it's been dealt with. From hyc@symas.com Sat Jan 23 22:48:33 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0O6mX9s071136 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:48:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hyc@symas.com) Received: from lirone.symas.net (lirone.symas.net [64.71.152.235]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0O6mUFJ006129 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from cpe-76-94-188-212.socal.res.rr.com ([76.94.188.212] helo=[192.168.1.20]) by lirone.symas.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NYwGr-0000Jk-P5; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:48:29 -0800 Message-ID: <4B5BED48.7000905@symas.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:48:40 -0800 From: Howard Chu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; rv:1.9.3a1pre) Gecko/20100115 SeaMonkey/2.0a1pre Firefox/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Magda References: <1d30d2691001231057v2e57e9c5pe1ed345084869161@mail.gmail.com> <4B5B4F9E.2010106@will.to> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE list Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 06:48:34 -0000 David Magda wrote: > On Jan 23, 2010, at 15:52, Joseph Kern wrote: > >> Leaders cannot (and must not) treat those under them as disposable >> pieces of a machine. > > Except that they can and do. :) > > Your missive (especially the first paragraph) is a nice touchy-feely > take on things, and has the "social grease" that Cat Okita mentioned, > but if I would read it I would classify it as PC BS meant to coddle me. > > At least in original message Richard Darkin sent along I'd be pretty > sure that the writer is expressing their true feelings in an efficient > manner; one where I don't have to waste time parsing the words trying > to figure out what they "really meant". This touches on one of the most important points - yes, tone can be conveyed in text, by authors etc., but how many people do you know who take the same amount of care crafting each sentence in their email as is required of a good novel? Aside from that, how many people do you know who actually have good enough writing skills to pen a Great Novel? Finally, how many people do you know who are alert enough readers to pick up on all of this? How many would "waste time trying to figure out what" was really meant... How many people try to read far more into the words than the words themselves merit? Unless you know the writer very well, it's usually a mistake to try to figure too much out. And if the writer is trying to lace more meaning into an email missive, but doesn't know all of the audience well, that's a problem too. In both cases it's better to assume as little as possible about tone and only take the words at face value. > Perhaps I'm more logical and less empathetic than the average person, > but personally I'd rather people tell me things honesty so I can take > it in, decide if there are any actions that need to be done with the > new information, and then move on with my life once it's been dealt > with. -- -- Howard Chu CTO, Symas Corp. http://www.symas.com Director, Highland Sun http://highlandsun.com/hyc/ Chief Architect, OpenLDAP http://www.openldap.org/project/ From timetrap@gmail.com Sun Jan 24 04:20:06 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0OCK6kS075681 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 2010 04:20:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f197.google.com (mail-pz0-f197.google.com [209.85.222.197]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0OCK3Ea020432 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 2010 04:20:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by pzk35 with SMTP id 35so1958747pzk.22 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 2010 04:19:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=maoxXhqCwmgt+QEqEFsZT3Icl/sipDCwCAQ/UTx9XlA=; b=rRMr5MW9hgaFV+Qqa32kRdALmpccMH4G5qUFAbXccpxCCArabAYsmXVfkVJ6tg3SvA /LIMgCLL8f1+CpQ/HG5O9Y0VLtC6x85z6xD0YGxwdiJfrmcTgG3TeC/6FzRnS1N8QHi+ NzRdu5y5tHYziCwOWNnGq4LXJvjY7tE6pRoO0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=iMd6BWbx7poEpo0GafzpGq9d6E+1wZT6cuJR+cAi1a3c+BdAP1h+h052oRALc/P3Fh wCVbYMqxU27EPHDrclAIbaoQtnvrkgIVO6KzB/SnygmSSYoDAGj79B4xjVqH50dKP421 gKi7CXGnZJ6DQEtEB2Gj366bExFCbyLuU/TnY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.196.14 with SMTP id t14mr3611622wff.326.1264335598497; Sun, 24 Jan 2010 04:19:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1d30d2691001231057v2e57e9c5pe1ed345084869161@mail.gmail.com> <4B5B4F9E.2010106@will.to> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 07:19:58 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3d0540b7b94d0ab9 Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: David Magda Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Cc: SAGE list Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 12:20:07 -0000 >> Leaders cannot (and must not) treat those under them as disposable pieces of a machine. > Except that they can and do. :) I know ... > At least in original message Richard Darkin sent along I'd be pretty sure that the writer is expressing their true feelings in an efficient manner; one where I don't have to waste time parsing the words trying to figure out what they "really meant". You raise some good points; maybe a phone call would be better? > Your missive (especially the first paragraph) is a nice touchy-feely take on things, and has the "social grease" that Cat Okita mentioned, but if I would read it I would classify it as PC BS meant to coddle me. "Know thy audience" is always the first rule of writing (and speech). I would make the case that email (because of SOX) is more or less permanent (and admissible in court as evidence). Trying to be a little PC might not hurt as long as you remain intellectually honest and still convey your meaning. You'll have to forgive my attempts at being PC. Most of the nasty-grams I write are to superiors. :-) On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 12:38 AM, David Magda wrote: > On Jan 23, 2010, at 15:52, Joseph Kern wrote: > >> Leaders cannot (and must not) treat those under them as disposable pieces >> of a machine. > > Except that they can and do. :) > > Your missive (especially the first paragraph) is a nice touchy-feely take on > things, and has the "social grease" that Cat Okita mentioned, but if I would > read it I would classify it as PC BS meant to coddle me. > > At least in original message Richard Darkin sent along I'd be pretty sure > that the writer is expressing their true feelings in an efficient manner; > one where I don't have to waste time parsing the words trying to figure out > what they "really meant". > > Perhaps I'm more logical and less empathetic than the average person, but > personally I'd rather people tell me things honesty so I can take it in, > decide if there are any actions that need to be done with the new > information, and then move on with my life once it's been dealt with. > > From andrew@research.att.com Mon Jan 25 04:49:24 2010 Received: from mail-yellow.research.att.com (mail-dark.research.att.com [192.20.225.112]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0PCnNIu095197 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:49:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@research.att.com) Received: from [135.207.39.163] (castle7163.research.att.com [135.207.39.163]) by bigmail.research.att.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id o0PCnHrk023702 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:49:18 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> From: Andrew Hume Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:49:15 -0500 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 12:49:24 -0000 This issue comes up often at $WORK, especially when i work on presentations. you need to decide two main things: - what (facts, warning, concerns etc) needs to be communicated - how those are best presented in order that the audience will hear and understand them this latter, which used to be taught decades ago as rhetoric, is the most important part of the communication, and is mostly not taught to technical folks. and for the original question? of course written words have tone. and restricting your prose to dense technobabble in passive and indirect voice doesn't change that: "use of wiring techniques which allow cable strains of more than 5 kgs will typically result in punitive measures yet to be devised but which may include cable ties and testicles." ------------------ Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and LOPSA From timetrap@gmail.com Mon Jan 25 07:18:46 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f197.google.com (mail-pz0-f197.google.com [209.85.222.197]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0PFIknR097222 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:18:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: by pzk35 with SMTP id 35so2660963pzk.22 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:18:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GXcKnt7Kl8fA9pjhZPbD2rWavL+RiIXt8LHawhxGJrM=; b=dKH/T6zSoebQ111An+85fLq4Z3qPZUdSON1ux3fR4lUjdhahQwRe48wUkmZEdijkg/ JV0Qw0gKqO4T73TgJ1soYy0Z7nR4DcrMU/0YCXCFpJ5AIPrGBQxF0v/QlxA8M+eoe1aU Q5sLIvKhIB0k8/YN6lvkEda/3cAcR0qAeMaiA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=TzH2BAscKwA4uytN89szYklzuG2D7AX/zcXFXcEt74dbWxfXpE0EEouiB53z5u8J7+ odD+QH9/ZuAoBI7JfdDU1XiBWI2Mr+qCq/guNzbPllqsxsfgPkHzUjauACAeHeP961Xn No7Juiflugl3/imrSquf1CHA52k3jGLPU/8rg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.143.24.31 with SMTP id b31mr233920wfj.242.1264432720823; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:18:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> References: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:18:40 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7dded5e942cb7d2e Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: Andrew Hume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0PFIknR097222 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:18:46 -0000 Well said Andrew. I found myself deeply interested in the power of words after reading the Dune novels. Geeky I know. But I found an excellent resource for learning the real art of rehtoric and the art of writing. Way With Words: Writing, Rhetoric, and the Art of Persuasion: http://www.rbfilm.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=scholar.show_course&course_id=85 Way with Words II: Approaches to Literature: http://www.rbfilm.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=scholar.show_course&course_id=102 These are two audio courses that I found entertaining and enlightening. I found these through audbile and they remain the only "books" (they're audio lectures actually) that I've listened to more than twice. If you create an audible account through an affiliate you receive a free audio book (hint hint). Also at each link, there is a free PDF guide for the lecture notes, these are very complete, but lack the range and impact of the actual lectures. I can also recommend the other lectures in his series: http://www.rbfilm.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=scholar.show_professors&prof_id=44 -- Joseph Kern On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 7:49 AM, Andrew Hume wrote: > This issue comes up often at $WORK, especially when i work on > presentations. you need to decide two main things: >        - what (facts, warning, concerns etc) needs to be communicated >        - how those are best presented in order that the audience will hear >                and understand them > > this latter, which used to be taught decades ago as rhetoric, is the most > important part of the communication, and is mostly not taught > to technical folks. and for the original question? of course written > words have tone. and restricting your prose to dense technobabble > in passive and indirect voice doesn't change that: > >        "use of wiring techniques which allow cable strains of > more than 5 kgs will typically result in punitive measures > yet to be devised but which may include cable ties and > testicles." > > ------------------ > Andrew Hume  (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 > andrew@research.att.com  (Work) +1 973-360-8651 > AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and LOPSA > > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From david@splunk.com Mon Jan 25 07:22:34 2010 Received: from EXHUB017-2.exch017.msoutlookonline.net (exhub017-2.exch017.msoutlookonline.net [64.78.22.17]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0PFMYWo097306 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:22:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david@splunk.com) Received: from mcdavid-2.local (69.109.191.201) by smtpx17.msoutlookonline.net (64.78.22.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.176.0; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:22:29 -0800 Message-ID: <4B5DB733.8080106@splunk.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:22:27 -0800 From: David Carasso Organization: Splunk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100120 Lightning/1.0b1 Shredder/3.0.2pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Hume References: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> In-Reply-To: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: "sage-members@mailman.sage.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:22:35 -0000 On 1/25/10 4:49 AM, Andrew Hume wrote: > - how those are best presented in order that the audience will hear > and understand them > > this latter, which used to be taught decades ago as rhetoric, is the > most important part of the communication, and is mostly not taught > to technical folks. > Many colleges have rhetoric classes that meet English requirements. That's what I took and it was much more useful than a generic English class. I'd recommend that option to all students in college. I've also enjoyed these three books in the last year -- they're fun reads, especially the first: * Thank You for Arguing: What Aristotle, Lincoln, and Homer Simpson Can Teach Us About the Art of Persuasion * How to Win Every Argument: The Use and Abuse of Logic * A Rulebook for Arguments Besides persuasion, they discuss common logical flaws people use and abuse all the time, and how to prevent yourself from being manipulated. As an aside, I learned more about English, and language in general, from one year of Latin than I did from 12 years of English classes. I'd highly recommend high school students take it. -- *david carasso* chief mind *Splunk* > * mine the gap* From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Mon Jan 25 08:59:18 2010 Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0PGxHtk098445 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 08:59:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o0PGxFNb021103; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:59:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:59:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <41118.207.61.230.154.1264438756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <4B5DB733.8080106@splunk.com> References: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> <4B5DB733.8080106@splunk.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:59:16 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "David Carasso" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: "sage-members@mailman.sage.org" , Andrew Hume Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:59:18 -0000 On Mon, January 25, 2010 10:22, David Carasso wrote: > > On 1/25/10 4:49 AM, Andrew Hume wrote: >> - how those are best presented in order that the audience will hear >> and understand them >> >> this latter, which used to be taught decades ago as rhetoric, is the >> most important part of the communication, and is mostly not taught >> to technical folks. > > Many colleges have rhetoric classes that meet English requirements. > That's what I took and it was much more useful than a generic English > class. I'd recommend that option to all students in college. In Canada, engineering students have to take a "technical communications" course as part of their qualifications to get their official certification. It's usually rolled in as a mandatory course in undergrad. It's mostly a way of practicing writing reports and making presentations, and (sadly) not strictly rhetoric, but it does allow people to practice their skills and be critiqued. From timetrap@gmail.com Mon Jan 25 10:13:05 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f184.google.com (mail-pz0-f184.google.com [209.85.222.184]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0PID5Od099406 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:13:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: by pzk14 with SMTP id 14so2260255pzk.23 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:13:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wmiVo2Z/gnLkJRhAtSIFTQdZe2mN+K/X2ELjKEBB7Ps=; b=oYd+7eTTc08OIhXwkanuDFVBkEDZcAvjwJJ0gClWUn4i9yOXUHrRtxX6HpTt5UVYAB LEqMyrzDdNr0Ec/QL/lJNoc8LesqWkCByduCwdHf3SHq5R/0/0r30zO/KHR2qG5jMXpi aEYLflIDejmKHoDq93JPjJgxFGKoFQrO/WJxM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=cYEbDckZF99UiZcRnB3cB8XGJbzzr+xrzSB9eOKeoYvbR5mcuIpLFldausyFcRnGWJ CDmaDJ+atGZLhofEneUpWwneKRjjqNOXuE07zdYYli8ZzxhMNP2+7oiRwTjX3Sg6iDlQ FxJpw+vU+az7gEVYE5Zt50MvFez9DOVN5xy5s= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.9.37 with SMTP id 37mr4396043wfi.101.1264443179841; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:12:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <41118.207.61.230.154.1264438756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> References: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> <4B5DB733.8080106@splunk.com> <41118.207.61.230.154.1264438756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:12:59 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 906b376f5f5df974 Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: David Magda Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0PID5Od099406 Cc: "sage-members@mailman.sage.org" , Andrew Hume Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:13:06 -0000 I found that taking an improv class, and participating in several plays really breaks you out of your stage-fright shell. I did these in college as electives, and it has served me well. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:59 AM, David Magda wrote: > On Mon, January 25, 2010 10:22, David Carasso wrote: >> >> On 1/25/10 4:49 AM, Andrew Hume wrote: >>>      - how those are best presented in order that the audience will hear >>>              and understand them >>> >>> this latter, which used to be taught decades ago as rhetoric, is the >>> most important part of the communication, and is mostly not taught >>> to technical folks. >> >> Many colleges have rhetoric classes that meet English requirements. >> That's what I took and it was much more useful than a generic English >> class. I'd recommend that option to all students in college. > > In Canada, engineering students have to take a "technical communications" > course as part of their qualifications to get their official > certification. It's usually rolled in as a mandatory course in undergrad. > > It's mostly a way of practicing writing reports and making presentations, > and (sadly) not strictly rhetoric, but it does allow people to practice > their skills and be critiqued. > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From mizmoose@gmail.com Mon Jan 25 16:44:53 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0Q0ir9l011654 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:44:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mizmoose@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.145]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0Q0in7K002943 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:44:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 14so248546qwa.22 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:44:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=uywifyRGDpjf4xFqdVSIrt78c8byPNNAUNW/7zvuVFY=; b=RX/XcEizZSUNZpFtdT8CIokR7NVfDzXjiz8/dhULCn+zxV2QfuWcr+Cc+FCLEUDczv XljkkntnFEuo2NUvqXb24ElbPIPhe1a05xaQQA+TI9BFr0b1JjoFG3CI3hYit0MPCWPp awJXH1KBubXWa6EFaMmZpQxpRUa4JnKa+w6ak= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=KjjHVTxrRz66reNB0qfghUIw7mfjQ/pW/cQGhYqerQ72dWeIYMlS87mXVyeeXnNPyR +H+NQgGkiTD3neN7m68JHerygzdrCX1QT50FE/jKovX/v8AFTTm6zCuLS8yW6BubRhWk UxbLrpN/VvLlaHU09ORcDuTAQSUT9ngneG/gY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.62.84 with SMTP id w20mr4196090qch.96.1264466689306; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:44:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> <4B5B80BA.2000408@nmt.edu> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:44:49 -0500 Message-ID: From: Esther Filderman To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 00:44:53 -0000 On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 6:30 PM, Richard Dakin wrote: > You know last Sunday I could have sworn the person doing the American > Sign Language in front of the hearing impaired section had a "tone" in > her fingers. :) Except that ASL *is* an expressive language with "tone". The very first ASL class I took (back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth) ended with the instructor telling us a story about a car accident she was in. It was done completely in ASL and if we didn't understand it word for word we certainly understood the story! The best ASL instructional materials, including an online dictionary from MSU (http://commtechlab.msu.edu/sites/aslweb/), explain where particular words come from. It's often dang close to pantomime. Moose From mizmoose@gmail.com Mon Jan 25 16:48:55 2010 Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.25]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0Q0msDL011754 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:48:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mizmoose@gmail.com) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 9so70129qwb.55 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:48:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=aKfdaesXv/ZcX6uOw9ri+fP8oLrbhxZBD47ZwevL98U=; b=pkMdRahbGzlR3hrX+kT4EhxaSBglXzrgDBq8CM+FxVj7ngnDj9A76yoOYLyJYANKh8 f/VhAWhyVsx1j2y10I+9dwYVM0FKR+8+AO86KHFeqSpIi51GgfAz670xR8b7rYhKpGGh r5Sq4yBAlc/NhfFozim6ZhQYI3vnFWBS6XALA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=eIe59fNyuH77IEG/r1IL84dBD7351xpbuQ1sqob11jEuKBgVmxLw6cK2EPDs0BIbVP 2vHvqPQ0eNfwVPZy01tEunsJArYLeUxv76cz0vlgdcmkP1cAc7F6SAzterhktmfp000h UmhiIeTQTf0HnfeAgK/MqpYvn1K3geiiNAdmQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.62.84 with SMTP id w20mr4197651qch.96.1264466934328; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:48:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <41118.207.61.230.154.1264438756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> References: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> <4B5DB733.8080106@splunk.com> <41118.207.61.230.154.1264438756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:48:54 -0500 Message-ID: From: Esther Filderman To: "sage-members@mailman.sage.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 00:48:55 -0000 On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:59 AM, David Magda wrote: > In Canada, engineering students have to take a "technical communications" > course as part of their qualifications to get their official > certification. It's usually rolled in as a mandatory course in undergrad. > > It's mostly a way of practicing writing reports and making presentations, > and (sadly) not strictly rhetoric, but it does allow people to practice > their skills and be critiqued. > At Carnegie Mellon University engineering students were once (and may still be) required to take such a class. The results were often... "interesting." I recall a mechanical engineering friend taking the class in the first of his senior years :-) and a pile of us trying to explain to him why he failed a certain writing assignment. He'd somehow managed to make the first page (of a ~3 page assignment) not only one huge paragraph, but one long *sentence*. He had a hard time understanding the problem. "But all the information that's required is right here!" From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Tue Jan 26 05:17:58 2010 Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0QDHvn0030526 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 05:17:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0QDHu0I008147 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:17:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B5EEB84.6050707@bio.umass.edu> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:17:56 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sage-members@mailman.sage.org" References: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> <4B5DB733.8080106@splunk.com> <41118.207.61.230.154.1264438756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:17:56 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:17:58 -0000 Esther Filderman wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:59 AM, David Magda wrote: > >> In Canada, engineering students have to take a "technical communications" >> course as part of their qualifications to get their official >> certification. It's usually rolled in as a mandatory course in undergrad. >> >> It's mostly a way of practicing writing reports and making presentations, >> and (sadly) not strictly rhetoric, but it does allow people to practice >> their skills and be critiqued. >> > > At Carnegie Mellon University engineering students were once (and may > still be) required to take such a class. The results were often... > "interesting." > > I recall a mechanical engineering friend taking the class in the first > of his senior years :-) and a pile of us trying to explain to him why > he failed a certain writing assignment. He'd somehow managed to make > the first page (of a ~3 page assignment) not only one huge paragraph, > but one long *sentence*. He had a hard time understanding the > problem. "But all the information that's required is right here!" yup. And some programmers write what we call "spaghetti code" -- especially a problem in the days of the goto or, worse yet, the fortran 3 way branch on -, 0, +. But there is a relationship between beautiful proofs, clear code, and clear writing. They all involve a presentation that can convey or implement an idea/concept/algorithm and be understood by the reader. Clear thinking and presentation are as important in math, engineering and programming as they are in the writing of prose. When I was an undergrad, we had a brilliant programmer who wrote code that no one could understand. We used his name as a synonym for spaghetti code. I can imagine that his coding style lead to many problems in his career (unless, of course, he changed his style). In a previous life, I spent many hours contemplating a set of equations and rearranging them so that they more clearly conveyed the underlying concept I was writing about and implementing in code. That's also the source of my "Erdös 4" -- tracking down an error in interpretation that resulted from an assumption getting lost in a pile of mathematics. -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From cat@reptiles.org Tue Jan 26 05:23:08 2010 Received: from mailbox.reptiles.org (rootgecko.reptiles.org@www.reptiles.ca [198.96.210.227] (may be forged)) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0QDN8jA030639 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 05:23:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cat@reptiles.org) Received: from skink.reptiles.org ([198.96.210.227] port=56724) by mailbox.reptiles.org([198.96.210.227] port=25) via TCP with esmtp (2463 bytes) (sender: ) (ident using UNIX) id for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:23:05 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.121 2005-Nov-17 #4 built 2006-Nov-28) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:23:03 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Chris Hoogendyk In-Reply-To: <4B5EEB84.6050707@bio.umass.edu> Message-ID: <20100126082120.B77610@gecko.reptiles.org> References: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> <4B5DB733.8080106@splunk.com> <41118.207.61.230.154.1264438756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4B5EEB84.6050707@bio.umass.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-753144225-1264512183=:77610" Cc: "sage-members@mailman.sage.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:23:09 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-753144225-1264512183=:77610 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: > In a previous life, I spent many hours contemplating a set of equations a= nd=20 > rearranging them so that they more clearly conveyed the underlying concep= t I=20 > was writing about and implementing in code. That's also the source of my= =20 > "Erd=F6s 4" -- tracking down an error in interpretation that resulted=20 > from an assumption getting lost in a pile of mathematics. It's worth remembering: =09Premature optimization is the root of all evils. and: =09The perfect is the enemy of the good. however ;) Don't let the desire for perfection keep you from trying, or from doing a decent (but not perfec) job. cheers! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." --0-753144225-1264512183=:77610-- From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Wed Jan 27 05:52:19 2010 Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0RDqI7G064692 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 05:52:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0RDqHYf023268 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:52:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B604511.9030304@bio.umass.edu> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:52:17 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sage-members@mailman.sage.org" References: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> <4B5DB733.8080106@splunk.com> <41118.207.61.230.154.1264438756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4B5EEB84.6050707@bio.umass.edu> <20100126082120.B77610@gecko.reptiles.org> In-Reply-To: <20100126082120.B77610@gecko.reptiles.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:52:18 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:52:20 -0000 Cat Okita wrote: > On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: >> In a previous life, I spent many hours contemplating a set of >> equations and rearranging them so that they more clearly conveyed the >> underlying concept I was writing about and implementing in code. >> That's also the source of my "Erdös 4" -- tracking down an error in >> interpretation that resulted from an assumption getting lost in a >> pile of mathematics. > > It's worth remembering: > > Premature optimization is the root of all evils. > > and: > > The perfect is the enemy of the good. > > however ;) Don't let the desire for perfection keep you from trying, or > from doing a decent (but not perfec) job. premature ... evils ... enemy ... good. Now there's some tone. ;-) I don't think I said anything about optimization or perfection. Both are loaded terms. Any search for perfection is either conceptually flawed or asymptotic (and I'm not one to spend a lifetime in a Concent in search of the Hylaean Theoric World ;-) ). Conciseness and clarity, however, can be achieved. Better is often possible. But, the effort required needs to be balanced against the potential benefits. Benefits, of course, is a multivariate space open to many interpretations, some of which separate political parties. Each person has to come to terms with that balance for themselves. -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From ntwrkd@gmail.com Wed Jan 27 18:38:26 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0S2cPEW083321 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:38:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ntwrkd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f48.google.com (mail-vw0-f48.google.com [209.85.212.48]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0S2cM89021510 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:38:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws5 with SMTP id 5so58277vws.35 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:38:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=PqikeJRR0xW5JkznLbK67Q3fgMUMGR3tNXEWV6o1C1U=; b=JB/STi4l/ogFjZ4f8aUHh62r6u0bwWgvqGssJU9+MHgfyQVHSWyMbp7+G+YDYyNXBY xso/lqVhbDG8IurfDScfjbKqlKu3nTcN3lnugCYOxgaxGzN7jmsjjUjm55nJrC6GTHVQ /CCHEG5wV897DV/EcLHzFQxjq4glTw+XFeCLQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=sznMDWOb6QKY/ifQnY+LupDM512PuCCE0b3V36AMi3Jv5zQws4ya8zhP/w1DERMMYC Suz1VQ0ANhLtCDK6vGF1DWxd1SvcxZwwGnrKeSE798FdPIKYMAVrvZ9LGa6hF4NDZarN hwVAfjpyUUv1eQxmxftX2rHTHzZ/iUEepbr/c= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.44.197 with SMTP id b5mr2171477vcf.51.1264645810017; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:30:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:30:09 -0800 Message-ID: From: ntwrkd To: SAGE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Subject: [SAGE] Online Training versus Classroom Training X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 02:38:26 -0000 I was wondering if anyone has had a good experience from online training for learning a programming language. If you have had a good, or bad experience, I'd be interested to here about it. Thanks, Matt From baron@bundesbrandschatzamt.de Thu Jan 28 04:13:51 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SCDogN099356 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 04:13:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from baron@bundesbrandschatzamt.de) Received: from mail.mlop.de (heimdall.mlop.de [213.128.138.33]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0SCDkQ9016628 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 04:13:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from odin.realnetworks.de (rentier.realnetworks.de [213.128.132.194]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.mlop.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0SBsI98016144 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:54:20 GMT Message-ID: <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:54:19 +0100 From: Andreas Gerler User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (X11/20090625) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> In-Reply-To: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:13:51 -0000 Tom Reingold wrote: > Hi. Can anyone recommend vpn software for a linux system running > iptables? I prefer freeware but will consider commercialware, too. > > Thanks. > > Tom Hi! Looks like nobody mentioned openvpn. http://www.openvpn.net Besides Windows and Linux also MacOSX are supported. For Mac i recommend http://code.google.com/p/tunnelblick/ I use it for interoffice connections and road warriors. Easy setup and it just works. so long... Baron -- http://www.bundesbrandschatzamt.de/~baron mailto:baron@bundesbrandschatzamt.de ICQ # 168310436 AIM: baron42fmcb From joel.merrick@gmail.com Thu Jan 28 04:28:37 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SCSb4j099542 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 04:28:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joel.merrick@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.155]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0SCSY7C016998 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 04:28:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 19so142596fgg.10 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 04:28:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=N+5kbVoAiTYno5ySBkHO+vGMzpl7RVqq/LXFajOBF9k=; b=quBzpawSZ8RRdAqH+7WqRKRch2husY+SemlqFwp8Pf0Ei4GeGKnwD9eazd5F5TobDd FrNNbrkX0kEknsBgJNpiLXR8DPa9oqSlP4HBVWsEGvrc4Gb9nK61cJNlwgoMH5ZUUKwY I+2GicGrcw5ZAr7iXXH9bqkAKie/sKA9/KZ+w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=giFGKuGKmfErzTajhw9G8j6ZFAcVh6EwoVN2mTp3Pu+ANyiCJA5wFi3NFKEGs3E04/ xuv0kAVDmPTz9nSYDbD0w6RJe6Qby+XhoCzVoTH9lJcHj0tZLUhY+ierFa4esmu7jfng id4kSMp4+5oextZOlweHHyoATEVDwRUk3jMoQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.151.142 with SMTP id r14mr1190090hbb.33.1264681713197; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 04:28:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:28:33 +0000 Message-ID: <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> From: Joel Merrick To: Andreas Gerler X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=12% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:28:38 -0000 On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Andreas Gerler < baron@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> wrote: > Tom Reingold wrote: > > Hi. Can anyone recommend vpn software for a linux system running > > iptables? I prefer freeware but will consider commercialware, too. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Tom > > Hi! > > Looks like nobody mentioned openvpn. > http://www.openvpn.net > > +1 for OpenVPN -- $ echo "kpfmAdpoofdufevq/dp/vl" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1)-1)/ge' From matt@ryanczak.org Thu Jan 28 04:32:26 2010 Received: from zap.planetfoo.org (zap.planetfoo.org [70.164.19.160]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SCWPQl099622 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 04:32:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@ryanczak.org) Received: from [IPv6:2001:500:4:15::16] (unknown [IPv6:2001:500:4:15::16]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zap.planetfoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 337F54B048A for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 07:32:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B6183F9.2050805@ryanczak.org> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 07:32:57 -0500 From: Matt Ryanczak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8pre) Gecko/20100124 Lightning/1.0b1 Shredder/3.0.2pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:32:26 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 01/28/2010 07:28 AM, Joel Merrick wrote: > +1 for OpenVPN +1 for openvpn as well. I'd like to add that as of the latest version IPv6 support is rock solid across all of its many modes of operation. It is also hard to find a platform it does not run on these days. ~Matt -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkthg/kACgkQLBnqUzFE81EHsgCeNNYRh+jj8OjnUDm7BMeVr+Ng jT0An0IW/PQiIjiTlkvikwfSvbLb6J5Q =88CX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From melgorri@hsr.ch Thu Jan 28 06:46:28 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SEkR7j003223 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 06:46:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from melgorri@hsr.ch) Received: from hsrmx1.hsr.ch (hsrmx1.hsr.ch [152.96.36.50]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0SEkOHh021234 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 06:46:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by hsrmx1.hsr.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3F6A210BCE for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:13:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from hsrmx1.hsr.ch ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (hsrmx1.hsr.ch [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id kRr+2IJfqCeM for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:13:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from sid00101.hsr.ch (sid00100.hsr.ch [152.96.20.160]) by hsrmx1.hsr.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1716E210A7C for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:13:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from sid00101.hsr.ch ([152.96.20.160]) by sid00101.hsr.ch ([152.96.20.160]) with mapi; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:13:12 +0100 From: To: Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:13:11 +0100 Thread-Topic: [SAGE] vpn software for linux Thread-Index: AcqgFynHHr801jzART6YdXH8hZjUMAADKD5w Message-ID: References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US, de-CH Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, de-CH Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0SEkR7j003223 Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:46:28 -0000 Hi Give a try to StrongSwan: an opensource 'pro' solution based on ipsec, works excellent with the new IKEv2 in Windows 7 vpn clients ( (and with Linux too, of course), with lots of modules for different use cases. Very active development and good documentation, integrated in all major linux distributions, but worth to use the latest stable version from their website www.strongswan.org And btw, (and not wanting to start a flame war about vpn) you should consider which philosophy suits better your business or use case: openvpn is openssl-based, while strongswan is ipsec based (which I'd prefer, as far as network restrictions wouldn't force me to a higher protocol level). Manuel Manuel Elgorriaga Kunze IT Services University of Applied Sciences Rapperswil CH - 8640 Rapperswil (Switzerland) www.hsr.ch -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Joel Merrick Sent: Donnerstag, 28. Januar 2010 13:29 To: Andreas Gerler Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Andreas Gerler < baron@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> wrote: > Tom Reingold wrote: > > Hi. Can anyone recommend vpn software for a linux system running > > iptables? I prefer freeware but will consider commercialware, too. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Tom > > Hi! > > Looks like nobody mentioned openvpn. > http://www.openvpn.net > > +1 for OpenVPN -- $ echo "kpfmAdpoofdufevq/dp/vl" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1)-1)/ge' _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From robert@timetraveller.org Thu Jan 28 11:10:01 2010 Received: from capella.opentrend.net (capella.opentrend.net [64.22.125.103]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SJA1Zl010357 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:10:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@timetraveller.org) Received: by capella.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B64EC137D5D; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:09:54 -0500 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on capella.opentrend.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 Received: from castor.opentrend.net (castor.opentrend.net [192.168.120.16]) by capella.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7257DD65 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:09:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E0360E640157; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:18:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCDF6408E615 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:18:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:18:27 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Brockway X-X-Sender: robert@castor.opentrend.net To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org In-Reply-To: <4B6183F9.2050805@ryanczak.org> Message-ID: References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> <4B6183F9.2050805@ryanczak.org> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 19:10:01 -0000 On Thu, 28 Jan 2010, Matt Ryanczak wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 01/28/2010 07:28 AM, Joel Merrick wrote: >> +1 for OpenVPN > > +1 for openvpn as well. I'd like to add that as of the latest version > IPv6 support is rock solid across all of its many modes of operation. > > It is also hard to find a platform it does not run on these days. I've been running cross-platform[1] OpenVPN in many different sites since 2003. It is feature-full and bullet-proof. [1] Numerous versions of Linux, OSX & MS-Windows all working together seemlessly. Rob -- Email: robert@timetraveller.org IRC: Solver Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy From awen1977@gmail.com Thu Jan 28 11:49:00 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SJn0mF011371 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:49:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from awen1977@gmail.com) Received: from mail-px0-f201.google.com (mail-px0-f201.google.com [209.85.216.201]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0SJmvZw000243 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:48:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by pxi39 with SMTP id 39so751950pxi.2 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:48:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=sSaR873YcbQoBRJcxuDa54WvkSoZmhXgIuNvRaqHsGo=; b=oRk/6tGYNRCYGcDh7l3A9agjo8cRABFEJyvIs806X82kmqWu2/X9wnmb2KQpQERBQK 8ySB/4KKip/EIyyMnikjbfO5Sfbb9c/it9kbXYjp1Cy9ZLXoz9w0ijARAV5MoIVbFB9t REqN8oeuJ0PQUxAzCw9uZIF6+cBMYZruc1eus= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=d3bv65H0ekuxkSGjbHw+N4SzNPzikbTQLwHEOP6m4izRKoqa4tIh0pktpvPX33G+q9 F3Va6ljEK1/nSLKnqDd20HTPf7vB9A6YN8gwOAkaIGto3X3k7025DHnW5qWK63eBzxCZ 4HMW8xWmE45ipYK31z4S66xW3y3cuJ322gEa8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.236.20 with SMTP id j20mr3642697wah.185.1264708131949; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:48:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:48:51 -0800 Message-ID: <4934b8181001281148s6ca432cdk5aa855f404ec9d6c@mail.gmail.com> From: Alan Wen To: Andreas Gerler X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=12% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members Subject: [SAGE] How to enable ipmitool system event log in command line? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 19:49:00 -0000 I run the following command and found the ipmitool system event logging is disabled. How I can enable it? The server is in data center, we can have remote ssh access and console access. Please advice, Alan ======== command to find out system event disabled ========== $ sudo ipmitool sel list 1 | 12/26/2006 | 01:14:19 | Event Logging Disabled #0x51 | Log area reset/cleared | Asserted From djmitche@gmail.com Thu Jan 28 12:17:54 2010 Received: from mail-bw0-f226.google.com (mail-bw0-f226.google.com [209.85.218.226]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SKHr50012520 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:17:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djmitche@gmail.com) Received: by bwz26 with SMTP id 26so1001733bwz.7 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:17:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BcoWgkP49dw2YvproMd9kA57PiV6EqEc8sXfp2JuyBE=; b=BePAeRiCakSZWbhaFv2xexy0LbikjSilHdIa0p7JBIVP5b/EMa+PHPbYS6BjGZvqBS hc0VVA+7i9zeFvV3ClM4VcEEDyIcHIqIb0PAysGmtCfHb6A2a810WdItr4WEQcirIFma TY3/im4JVOggp8ttvp39jC9ndIkTP7xiMp5A4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=ho6+xwCOcBooAYLbTZUtDWPI9V2T4PTpi0I251XCOD7PDIeU3k67kcrhyMGBy24ioF Mwz/mNVjPiiHuVRtMIZG3fzzydUdGY8GoDw0bpTlJuEzjI6qHlQi6CNBX+wT3tIknSFy GcCD8SbQbpDvziIJA02L811Vcp/2v/SluOzlw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: djmitche@gmail.com Received: by 10.204.135.214 with SMTP id o22mr2169754bkt.55.1264709867192; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:17:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> <4B6183F9.2050805@ryanczak.org> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:17:47 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 1a5c4327c3f7f034 Message-ID: <42338fbf1001281217q74a03d6cr4ab9018a73326034@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dustin J. Mitchell" To: Robert Brockway Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0SKHr50012520 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 20:17:55 -0000 On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Robert Brockway wrote: > I've been running cross-platform[1] OpenVPN in many different sites since > 2003.  It is feature-full and bullet-proof. I wasn't going to say anything, but "bullet-proof" is a bit too strong to leave unchallenged. At $WORK, we had been using OpenVPN for some time, until the server started crashing repeatedly. The cause was narrowed slightly to "strange" traffic from a number of IPs -- basically a poison packet. The problem was solved by buying a Juniper VPN product that ships with binary blobs that require particular versions of JVM, etc. etc. -- yuck. I wasn't party to the troubleshooting process for OpenVPN, so sadly I don't have any more details for you (and there's a chance I'm repeating a made-up excuse for an inability to fix it). It seems like the ability to crash on receipt of a poison packet is not "bullet-proof," particularly since VPN servers are by their very nature exposed to the wilds of the Internet. I'd be interested to know if anyone can confirm or deny this story.. Dustin -- Open Source Storage Engineer http://www.zmanda.com From treed@copilotco.com Thu Jan 28 12:50:25 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SKoO0f014189 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:50:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0SKoMf4001878 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:50:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id D200B64C76; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:50:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:50:21 -0800 From: Tracy Reed To: Andreas Gerler Message-ID: <20100128205021.GD8165@tracyreed.org> References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OaZoDhBhXzo6bW1J" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 20:50:26 -0000 --OaZoDhBhXzo6bW1J Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 12:54:19PM +0100, Andreas Gerler spake thusly: > Looks like nobody mentioned openvpn. > http://www.openvpn.net OpenVPN is totally the way to go IMHO. Secure and easy and they have good client software for Linux, Windows, Mac. I replaced a Linksys router based VPN solution (very unreliable) with OpenVPN here a few months ago and haven't had a single trouble call about it since. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --OaZoDhBhXzo6bW1J Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLYfiN9PIYKZYVAq0RAvDpAKCWhbIkNaDiyI2083P9FfbNVpCC5ACeIvH7 Gqz2eBoSC3EAUzS6O/2GFGw= =uTPE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OaZoDhBhXzo6bW1J-- From treed@copilotco.com Thu Jan 28 12:52:52 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SKqqPi014266 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:52:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0SKqnpX001928 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:52:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 0D0D664C80; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:52:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:52:48 -0800 From: Tracy Reed To: melgorri@hsr.ch Message-ID: <20100128205248.GE8165@tracyreed.org> References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="9l24NVCWtSuIVIod" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 20:52:52 -0000 --9l24NVCWtSuIVIod Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 03:13:11PM +0100, melgorri@hsr.ch spake thusly: > And btw, (and not wanting to start a flame war about vpn) you should > consider which philosophy suits better your business or use case: Quite true > openvpn is openssl-based, while strongswan is ipsec based (which I'd > prefer, as far as network restrictions wouldn't force me to a higher > protocol level). Just to clarify: Several times I have noticed that when people hear "openssl based" they think HTTP and that this is some sort of VPN kludge over HTTP. That is not the case at all. As most of you know, any TCP stream can be tunneled and encrypted over SSL and that is what openvpn does. No HTTP involved at all. A simple and elegant solution. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --9l24NVCWtSuIVIod Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLYfkg9PIYKZYVAq0RAmPQAJ0Yym39RYEZEd5G/V/EbMfafIg+GQCfWmv7 E1zegAVzsgNOvpFhtlnjRko= =andG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --9l24NVCWtSuIVIod-- From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Jan 28 12:56:41 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SKuf4n014355 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:56:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0SKubAR002139 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:56:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o0SKuaTt017537; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:56:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:56:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <15248.207.61.230.154.1264712196.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:56:36 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: melgorri@hsr.ch User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 20:56:41 -0000 On Thu, January 28, 2010 09:13, melgorri@hsr.ch wrote: > And btw, (and not wanting to start a flame war about vpn) you should > consider which philosophy suits better your business or use case: openvpn > is openssl-based, while strongswan is ipsec based (which I'd prefer, as > far as network restrictions wouldn't force me to a higher protocol level). How well does IPsec work through things like hotel firewalls? At $WORK we used to use Cisco, but it seems there was some flakiness in getting through filtering rules in some places, so we're not using Juniper's SSL-based system. Anyone have experience between the two approaches? From livenyc@gmail.com Thu Jan 28 13:54:37 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SLsb84016282 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:54:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from livenyc@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f53.google.com (mail-pw0-f53.google.com [209.85.160.53]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0SLsYwU003569 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:54:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwi4 with SMTP id 4so817562pwi.12 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:54:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=wFJ0yxZ+9MnauIAq2RCR3xQKOIQIFlPAxULL6nW3eAQ=; b=Jv80dQrEqGvTc0LZu9ejzU1Tvhx9I4Tx39soAmzWVQwaSd/AyESrhiWWnR2Y5wc07g Igi18NecLkV8GvwqKCl26747ikLPl/35rwmpHIOUniEr0iQmfPk9mv7tuo8fmNTiO/H4 4XcikPSKCGa0xPgLmwGrxZNY5gfMGK7F+WYB4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=rtMg27/BH2YdRr2B1LVqFPvgbAjPgqEBPUzMKjvEvRZjRRWYqM5kTxvo4z8fviWX16 argBW2x7xHtDFj+f7G4t/r+kfEaSTDEXSisL5nQBLq0O5FH+6okd9hzqAQiu4NJY+pKI e/x9LHSQJhxj5NJewvYVjjGe1B3xSZmYlmKYA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: livenyc@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.54.3 with SMTP id c3mr2205967waa.2.1264715661558; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:54:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <15248.207.61.230.154.1264712196.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> <15248.207.61.230.154.1264712196.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 16:54:21 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: b307edb6e8beebad Message-ID: <810cf27d1001281354r7ae2130cx1825aa6cd2810105@mail.gmail.com> From: Igor V To: David Magda X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=13% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:54:38 -0000 we had lots of problems with IPSEC from hotels at my previous place of employment. Best solution for us was enabling TCP encapsulation (back then it was only an option on 3000 Concentrators). Changing default port (TCP 10,000) to 443 helped in places that blocked random outgoing ports -iv On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 3:56 PM, David Magda wrote: > On Thu, January 28, 2010 09:13, melgorri@hsr.ch wrote: > > > And btw, (and not wanting to start a flame war about vpn) you should > > consider which philosophy suits better your business or use case: openvpn > > is openssl-based, while strongswan is ipsec based (which I'd prefer, as > > far as network restrictions wouldn't force me to a higher protocol > level). > > How well does IPsec work through things like hotel firewalls? > > At $WORK we used to use Cisco, but it seems there was some flakiness in > getting through filtering rules in some places, so we're not using > Juniper's SSL-based system. > > Anyone have experience between the two approaches? > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From mike.diehn@gmail.com Thu Jan 28 15:07:40 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SN7ePe018164 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:07:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike.diehn@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.146]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0SN7aLv005209 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:07:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so203990qwc.22 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:07:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; bh=+MAH5SnqbrHygEanjPfTV924IGUCwlDuvs3jm/n9rrM=; b=U/bewnNhEYpgPLovxGAakYElDduJONAbpC9H98MSchRKBj1wUyeQiAYYEPSNzvIbHO l84q0snmw2hoPibVT34kCMJiTLBRSDoAkXdY6hSdi2pgHwjeqcxkfB+gGrr3rvTBGgtu wF/5pEMm+1hDOYhbcYKFhcKxhrteNovpbxGnM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=w4zmyMCCkgXTUiEfH6Q1qjiqdCwBYeGZDDn1WY0vwJqnf1PHTD8gQxl9mfGhV4MVXT P5+GoP3y8HRCeoxPACxIUKWCOBJxuziK0qTAC429PTprMHbaCfkxTXItVcQ01Q3q81+b Fy1tDS9OM5KVS5m8SYsMzs3mMGXIziolADFOo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mike.diehn@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.59.224 with SMTP id m32mr6645360qah.76.1264719747158; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:02:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4934b8181001281148s6ca432cdk5aa855f404ec9d6c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4934b8181001281148s6ca432cdk5aa855f404ec9d6c@mail.gmail.com> From: Mike Diehn Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:02:07 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: b1dcf3b4694731d7 Message-ID: <2a03c5ff1001281502q4fe842d7xee959b22a7a969aa@mail.gmail.com> To: Alan Wen X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] How to enable ipmitool system event log in command line? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 23:07:40 -0000 Use: ipmitool mc getenables to see if it's actually disabled or not. Output from my system is: Receive Message Queue Interrupt : disabled Event Message Buffer Full Interrupt : disabled Event Message Buffer : disabled System Event Logging : enabled OEM 0 : disabled OEM 1 : disabled OEM 2 : disabled Use this to turn it on if you need to: ipmitool mc setenables system_event_log=on You'll get the "getenables" output again showing the updated setting. Best, Mike On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 2:48 PM, Alan Wen wrote: > I run the following command and found the ipmitool system event logging is > disabled. How I can enable it? > > The server is in data center, we can have remote ssh access and console > access. > > Please advice, > > Alan > > ======== command to find out system event disabled ========== > > $ sudo ipmitool sel list > 1 | 12/26/2006 | 01:14:19 | Event Logging Disabled #0x51 | Log area > reset/cleared | Asserted > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- Mike Diehn Diehn Consulting, LLC mike.diehn@gmail.com From robert@timetraveller.org Thu Jan 28 18:09:40 2010 Received: from procyon.opentrend.net (li144-209.members.linode.com [109.74.197.209]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0T29dch023175 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:09:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@timetraveller.org) Received: by procyon.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1004) id F35ECCDF5; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:09:31 -0500 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on procyon.opentrend.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 Received: from castor.opentrend.net (unknown [192.168.120.16]) by procyon.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E207CDF5 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:09:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 02F60F3E13F3; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:18:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F03E6408E615 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:18:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:18:09 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Brockway X-X-Sender: robert@castor.opentrend.net To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org In-Reply-To: <42338fbf1001281217q74a03d6cr4ab9018a73326034@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> <4B6183F9.2050805@ryanczak.org> <42338fbf1001281217q74a03d6cr4ab9018a73326034@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 02:09:41 -0000 On Thu, 28 Jan 2010, Dustin J. Mitchell wrote: > I wasn't going to say anything, but "bullet-proof" is a bit too strong > to leave unchallenged. Hehehe :) I must admit I did think twice before putting it down :) I can only go on my experience which is that in seven years of running OpenVPN hard in a variety of organisations and with mixed sets of clients and permanent VPN links connecting remote corporate offices I've only had two incidents where an OpenVPN server failed. Both were fixed by a simple restart of the server process. > At $WORK, we had been using OpenVPN for some time, until the server > started crashing repeatedly. The cause was narrowed slightly to > "strange" traffic from a number of IPs -- basically a poison packet. Did they believe the poison packets were a deliberate attack or was it just some app breaking an RFC and OpenVPN not dealing with it properly? Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert@timetraveller.org IRC: Solver Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy From djmitche@gmail.com Thu Jan 28 19:24:15 2010 Received: from mail-bw0-f226.google.com (mail-bw0-f226.google.com [209.85.218.226]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0T3OEUC025255 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 19:24:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djmitche@gmail.com) Received: by bwz26 with SMTP id 26so1316986bwz.7 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 19:24:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=f+RduN8ws+A6YPw6ec/7moU/rdLV9X9PmKy7QJWN/8c=; b=DXBuniTwBwMWw4lTHCL5cIjuig4zkFygyAYkBvraoPTFrBV3WSNY0OHgNv4orcHRiM +DSb3z7q5XM7L7DVwcgsHr5BBWS9hC8lHuda2HjhsqzorXz4hfztootUWGa6CgOLW7J/ In3krCmAvN4UVTB/UtGBBGZ+Kddglgv06Yi7k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=bKU2CcReyk6Xf5EdarnrSdpPX6yIu/EoHvMG99I5e53MzB5XRf6Ahw8yHBG+hX4V3P pUKczLOl7m50let4pjTyR31yccro38dwlMB4gzXpMCShQxE+Zjp6mxRdD2Zcgodm1Zu5 roQDq/ITIqbuTXheM6vfyTU/TGm18KvSbBhjY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: djmitche@gmail.com Received: by 10.204.33.69 with SMTP id g5mr117363bkd.167.1264735448758; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 19:24:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> <4B6183F9.2050805@ryanczak.org> <42338fbf1001281217q74a03d6cr4ab9018a73326034@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:24:08 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3f51a6d1904ad5de Message-ID: <42338fbf1001281924o6f68549br169747ddd2ec038@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dustin J. Mitchell" To: Robert Brockway Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 03:24:16 -0000 On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Robert Brockway wrote: > Did they believe the poison packets were a deliberate attack or was it just > some app breaking an RFC and OpenVPN not dealing with it properly? I suspect the latter - this would be a particularly ineffectual "attack" in our environment. But, again, I don't have all of the info to be able to answer that. Dustin -- Open Source Storage Engineer http://www.zmanda.com From dhanks@gmail.com Sat Jan 30 10:16:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0UIGVgf079085 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:16:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: from mail-px0-f201.google.com (mail-px0-f201.google.com [209.85.216.201]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0UIGSwk013092 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by pxi39 with SMTP id 39so2477271pxi.2 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:16:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=TCGq0TljvfCglRD4U3HDTw7GRN7Hwr4vJdzOrO0FHVw=; b=fXTH7BTW0he1KX+lQIhzgCmrv2wvcgBKeV4uEPKzH4l68oP7hCAZXQT1RYXEvwvmK6 tqCNa73rmMDtvLgWl9V1ETRvPY4jkh6CAR2Bodm3oEA/sSuuCJe1dZ+k4RKoU9poxQib sc6iViWzcuw/M6mfWy3bfrJrrjukIQOjLTyGI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=gpCM1dC49hkx8ZJhJtiSjhrclGwEbsdYaIJa7mkuBZscDV6RXpxM7kJFDmVpMYdwPP mzy8kAaG1QfxQpx0QmxT+PAN0JnAodBE+uZsUqHNrHavZGCaYvkxyE7x/eM2B6y/emph pDELAJa0ZThcfS0i/KIe5pgi8c2vgeYTfIJnc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.65.6 with SMTP id s6mr1651044wak.53.1264875381772; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:16:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:16:21 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1001301016m38403a6fl9e895c8209e559d5@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: Andreas Gerler X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=11% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 18:16:33 -0000 Considering the current price of commercial options - you would be crazy to use anything else. I'm assuming this is Internet facing and you probably have aT1, DS3 or OC3 circuit - which is significantly less than today's 1gbps network cards. If you want to be very cheap go with an older Juniper SSG-5 or SSG-20 (the 20 has the ability to terminate T1s). This will give you bullet-proof VPNs as well as a bullet-proof firewall. Juniper has been rated #1 in enterprise firewalls for the past 10 years by Garner. These devices sell for about $100 through $400 depending on if they're used or new. If you have a little bit more money, go with the current generation of Juniper SRX100 or SRX-210. Only different between SSG and SRX models is that SRX runs JUNOS (which is superior) and the SRX has much more throughput (something you probably don't need anything) and it has a start-of-the-art inline IPS. Of course these can terminate ADSL, T1s and etc. They're also top-of-the-line firewalls. These can be bought new for less than $1,000. Even a 10 year old cisco off ebay would be better than Linux running openvpn + iptables. Nothing wrong with Linux at all, it's just the level of development and expertise that goes into Juniper/Cisco versus openvpn and iptables. Go with the Juniper solution - and you'll never look back. On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 3:54 AM, Andreas Gerler < baron@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> wrote: > Tom Reingold wrote: > > Hi. Can anyone recommend vpn software for a linux system running > > iptables? I prefer freeware but will consider commercialware, too. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Tom > > Hi! > > Looks like nobody mentioned openvpn. > http://www.openvpn.net > > Besides Windows and Linux also MacOSX are supported. > For Mac i recommend http://code.google.com/p/tunnelblick/ > > I use it for interoffice connections and road warriors. > Easy setup and it just works. > > so long... > > Baron > > -- > http://www.bundesbrandschatzamt.de/~baron > mailto:baron@bundesbrandschatzamt.de > ICQ # 168310436 AIM: baron42fmcb > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From sarunas@mail.saabnet.com Sat Jan 30 15:29:50 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0UNTnN9084910 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 15:29:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sarunas@mail.saabnet.com) Received: from qmta01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.16]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0UNTkjq021069 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 15:29:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.19]) by qmta01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id bxj81d0020QuhwU51zQXiT; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 23:24:31 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.11] ([75.69.100.212]) by omta02.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id bzQW1d0064awwyr3NzQXEW; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 23:24:31 +0000 Message-ID: <4B64BFAD.40302@mail.saabnet.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 18:24:29 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=28aru-nas?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Hanks References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <82a71f8a1001301016m38403a6fl9e895c8209e559d5@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1001301016m38403a6fl9e895c8209e559d5@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7 OpenPGP: id=53149FE6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 23:29:50 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Doug Hanks wrote: > Considering the current price of commercial options - you would be crazy to > use anything else. I'm assuming this is Internet facing and you probably > have aT1, DS3 or OC3 circuit - which is significantly less than today's > 1gbps network cards. > > If you want to be very cheap go with an older Juniper SSG-5 or SSG-20 (the > 20 has the ability to terminate T1s). This will give you bullet-proof VPNs > as well as a bullet-proof firewall. Juniper has been rated #1 in enterprise > firewalls for the past 10 years by Garner. These devices sell for about > $100 through $400 depending on if they're used or new. > > If you have a little bit more money, go with the current generation of > Juniper SRX100 or SRX-210. Only different between SSG and SRX models is > that SRX runs JUNOS (which is superior) and the SRX has much more throughput > (something you probably don't need anything) and it has a start-of-the-art > inline IPS. Of course these can terminate ADSL, T1s and etc. They're also > top-of-the-line firewalls. These can be bought new for less than $1,000. > > Even a 10 year old cisco off ebay would be better than Linux running openvpn > + iptables. Nothing wrong with Linux at all, it's just the level of > development and expertise that goes into Juniper/Cisco versus openvpn and > iptables. I beg to differ re: Juniper "development and expertise". Shell scripts, that are supplied with Linux version certainly don't attest to this. Also, as of this date, they still can't provide 64-bit version of ncsv for Linux. In general our experience here with both Cisco and Juniper VPNs was such, that we decided to run our own departmental OpenVPN, which requires minimal config/maintenace and works fine with Lin/Mac/Win clients. > Go with the Juniper solution - and you'll never look back. If you have 64-bit Linux clients, Juniper will be useless. Sarunas Burdulis Systems Administrator, Upper Valley, New Hampshire -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAktkv60ACgkQVVkpJ1MUn+ZcsACdGEDx9PiStAMjn6K2mgxizxGK TAwAnigBCbnjrhdpZBFvwnKteW5hHfO8 =W4bt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dhanks@gmail.com Sat Jan 30 16:59:29 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0V0xTDn086805 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 16:59:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: from mail-px0-f201.google.com (mail-px0-f201.google.com [209.85.216.201]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0V0xQT5022811 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 16:59:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by pxi39 with SMTP id 39so2644796pxi.2 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 16:59:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=jv2XlO6CpbvfarXucZNyvKPqxCbtgmkPOlIfjo3hVDA=; b=P9B6YKJNNggw6dpOBZjI7FZKltOXHtU8MUaACWTnSJuccyFK2ynftrgxrDnUokR+tT j3bK8/O705V4hmQKNUoPubb8RGGA1JRZdDyDWvKiHBKibXuhKo3aGl9dKNS3PlILigyJ BUH3a4LZLLakLyqjiVkvRYElKHGj6STUvBCeI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=ADnJ5v3gcLwnmXjCO8z1KGdx1H9phDl0e8vTXoTj5EEju0gl4/gmpOyHLcG8C16rIE 75xecuF2TUhCmLWzrw8UdvpydTUFUcoiR8BD+oEXC4W5VL9YPC7+lL55tBKsq336Pgm+ gzqZNbyc65LgoKseHpOLSx8sGQX6BEzlYOL+w= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.30.7 with SMTP id d7mr1860927wad.30.1264899560498; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 16:59:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B64BFAD.40302@mail.saabnet.com> References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <82a71f8a1001301016m38403a6fl9e895c8209e559d5@mail.gmail.com> <4B64BFAD.40302@mail.saabnet.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 16:59:20 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1001301659y74ca16b8jd1be3004fe12c120@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: sarunas@mail.saabnet.com X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=11% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 00:59:29 -0000 I missed the earlier part of this thread. The only problem is that I'm not sure what you mean by Linux 64-bit clients. You plan on terminating IPSEC on Linux? Why? That's where networking equipment comes to play. Also what type of VPN? The VPN taxonomy is huge. You have Overlay VPNs which consist of Layer 1, Layer 2 and Layer 3 VPNs. These include T1s, Frame Relay, ATM, GRE and IPsec. There's P2P VPNs such as MPLS VPN and split routing. Then there's virtual networks like VLANs. At the moment, I can't think of a good business or technical reason to terminate IPsec tunnels on a host. The only reason I would consider it is if I didn't have control over the network infrastructure. I seen you mentioned "ncsv" - I assume that's the binary for Juniper's Network Connect? You're using Linux 64-bit as a laptop/workstation and you want to access your company's network via the Internet? If this is the case - open a JTAC case and get the issue resolved. Juniper has been rated #1 in customer support for 10 years. I've never had any major issues with Network Connect with Windows or OS X. In that case it isn't a Juniper SSG or SRX. It would be their remote access product Juniper SA series. This integrates with RADIUS, Active Directory, LDAP, RSA SecurID, etc. Supports full RBAC support with discretionary access. Supports corporate portals, split tunneling, Kerberos, SSO, Secure Meeting (much better than WebEx) and reverse proxy. Although unfortunately this is probably around the $10,000 range. I think I just realized this thread is more of a rant about how vendors do not support 64-bit Linux, and not about networking at all, so I will sign out. On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 3:24 PM, aru-nas wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Doug Hanks wrote: > > Considering the current price of commercial options - you would be crazy > to > > use anything else. I'm assuming this is Internet facing and you probably > > have aT1, DS3 or OC3 circuit - which is significantly less than today's > > 1gbps network cards. > > > > If you want to be very cheap go with an older Juniper SSG-5 or SSG-20 > (the > > 20 has the ability to terminate T1s). This will give you bullet-proof > VPNs > > as well as a bullet-proof firewall. Juniper has been rated #1 in > enterprise > > firewalls for the past 10 years by Garner. These devices sell for about > > $100 through $400 depending on if they're used or new. > > > > If you have a little bit more money, go with the current generation of > > Juniper SRX100 or SRX-210. Only different between SSG and SRX models is > > that SRX runs JUNOS (which is superior) and the SRX has much more > throughput > > (something you probably don't need anything) and it has a > start-of-the-art > > inline IPS. Of course these can terminate ADSL, T1s and etc. They're > also > > top-of-the-line firewalls. These can be bought new for less than $1,000. > > > > Even a 10 year old cisco off ebay would be better than Linux running > openvpn > > + iptables. Nothing wrong with Linux at all, it's just the level of > > development and expertise that goes into Juniper/Cisco versus openvpn and > > iptables. > > I beg to differ re: Juniper "development and expertise". Shell scripts, > that are supplied with Linux version certainly don't attest to this. > Also, as of this date, they still can't provide 64-bit version of ncsv > for Linux. In general our experience here with both Cisco and Juniper > VPNs was such, that we decided to run our own departmental OpenVPN, > which requires minimal config/maintenace and works fine with Lin/Mac/Win > clients. > > > Go with the Juniper solution - and you'll never look back. > > If you have 64-bit Linux clients, Juniper will be useless. > > Sarunas Burdulis > Systems Administrator, > Upper Valley, New Hampshire > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iEYEARECAAYFAktkv60ACgkQVVkpJ1MUn+ZcsACdGEDx9PiStAMjn6K2mgxizxGK > TAwAnigBCbnjrhdpZBFvwnKteW5hHfO8 > =W4bt > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From mike.diehn@gmail.com Mon Feb 8 18:39:40 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o192ddOf088424 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 18:39:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike.diehn@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f201.google.com (mail-qy0-f201.google.com [209.85.221.201]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o192da1o023110 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 18:39:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk39 with SMTP id 39so891355qyk.16 for ; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:39:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=9Z41RMe93dK6HHBX2OaLA/v1GPzF2kgezn2pnt+rcEc=; b=mZS2DcgYUSHeaRPK9NoP/jqx4fV4y4mjIKEhimN/Y5pn7Oyid7jeu+6VLe095vJQnE JCsd/LgN6/NYbQNxq2b2xF32P8gEaScRmuoC1mHoN9KW7oqdo3y8Z4GhiNcM7non0Pl3 tGoArQrCyrF+yd2Bz8Re0X+2gOmtrcJp689cY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id :subject:to:content-type; b=MnBZCSm62AP63V108FKZI5i43iBRE8PeVC0wPNE6Ih0+KGQlCrKtbfzh4a7qrdngrU sDaBbJYJEs6Zi8AqjvwFAlw3bPINTS69o0hX6QqnrzETmp+yKsTzEyBZJRgBW7Aitpcg DfSR/pKuMgJfsB4kTzwcW0oRDauBSb610SEro= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mike.diehn@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.36.69 with SMTP id s5mr2802675qad.359.1265681315061; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:08:35 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Diehn Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 21:08:15 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ba3367dd05c0bb87 Message-ID: <2a03c5ff1002081808x210de80bmbad4d26a259be4ff@mail.gmail.com> To: SAGE mailing list X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] Is eRacks a decent vendor? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 02:39:40 -0000 Hello SAGErs. I'm considering purchasing a file server from eRacks.com for a client and would like to know about your experience dealing with them. With eRacks, that is. I'm dealing with a person named Max. Anything you know that I should know? Can you recommend them? Should I stay way, way away from them? Thanks, Mike -- Mike Diehn Diehn Consulting, LLC mike.diehn@gmail.com From matt@ryanczak.org Tue Feb 9 05:20:31 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19DKUPK001919 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 05:20:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@ryanczak.org) Received: from zap.planetfoo.org (zap.planetfoo.org [70.164.19.160]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19DKRkh013526 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 05:20:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:e1ce:1:223:6cff:fe93:caf3] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:e1ce:1:223:6cff:fe93:caf3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zap.planetfoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FE654B0497 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 08:10:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 08:10:48 -0500 From: Matt Ryanczak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9pre) Gecko/20100206 Lightning/1.0b1 Shredder/3.0.2pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE mailing list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 13:20:31 -0000 I'm curious how many fellow SAGE members have deployed, are deploying or are experimenting with IPv6 on their networks, hosts and applications. ~Matt From jens@quux.de Tue Feb 9 06:25:05 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19EP5IP003344 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:25:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19EP1jP015922 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:25:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 29765 invoked by uid 0); 9 Feb 2010 15:24:56 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 29762, pid: 29763, t: 0.0703s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 9 Feb 2010 15:24:56 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Ner1K-0005VI-00 for ; Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:24:54 +0100 From: Jens Link To: SAGE mailing list Organization: - References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:24:54 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> (Matt Ryanczak's message of "Tue, 09 Feb 2010 08:10:48 -0500") Message-ID: <87vde6ebbd.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:25:05 -0000 Matt Ryanczak writes: > I'm curious how many fellow SAGE members have deployed, are deploying or > are experimenting with IPv6 on their networks, hosts and applications. I'm using IPv6 for some time now. I did a number of presentation on the topic (sorry, most slides are in German[1]) and I also did some design work for using IPv6 in a large hosting environment. I'm currently working on a book about IPv6 and I relay would love to do some more IPv6 projects. BTW: 580days left (http://ipv6.he.net/statistics/). Time to start learning IPv6. cheers Jens [1] This can be change if someone would invite me to speak outside of Germany. ;-) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From richard.dakin@ccci.org Tue Feb 9 06:30:29 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19EUT9W003467 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:30:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from richard.dakin@ccci.org) Received: from mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com (mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com [208.84.65.127]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19EUQGE016154 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:30:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (pph41414 [127.0.0.1]) by pph41414.pph.sfo.proofpoint.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with SMTP id o19EKPJq030942; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:30:24 -0500 Received: from hart-edge2.ccci.org ([72.159.180.78]) by pph41414.pph.sfo.proofpoint.com with ESMTP id ksvea8vhv-2 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 09 Feb 2010 09:30:24 -0500 Received: from HART-E013V.net.ccci.org (10.10.11.4) by HART-EDGE2.ccci.org (172.16.1.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.393.1; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:30:20 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:29:54 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] IPv6 Thread-Index: Acqpi9LkAWzgNmk8Sl+lPLfGyIaQ7QABcpVg References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> From: Richard Dakin To: Matt Ryanczak , SAGE mailing list X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2010-02-09_07:2010-02-06, 2010-02-09, 2010-02-09 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1002090100 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=14% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o19EUT9W003467 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:30:30 -0000 No IPv6 here yet. A few of us have discussed it a bit "unofficially." Going to have to present a strong case for it. We are so short on tech resources. We have 100 AIX LPARs, 100 RHEL VMs, and 270 Windows VMs. We support all the hosts with one AIX sysadmin, one part-time Linux sysadmin, and three part-time Windows sysadmins. We have one CCIE on the network team. We have three Oracle DBA and 90 databases. We support 1500 staff here at our headquarters and >20K worldwide. We also have four major IT project initiatives in progress. Total IT staff here is under 100 with less than 30 in Operations(Desktop, Server, Network, and DBA/Middleware/AIX/Linux). Average salary here is %35 below market. Don't see us making the IPv6 move in the next five years. ~Dakyn -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Matt Ryanczak Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 8:11 AM To: SAGE mailing list Subject: [SAGE] IPv6 I'm curious how many fellow SAGE members have deployed, are deploying or are experimenting with IPv6 on their networks, hosts and applications. ~Matt _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From dsf@catbert.org Tue Feb 9 06:33:51 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19EXpLw003551 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:33:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dsf@catbert.org) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [66.220.1.91]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19EXmHe016274 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:33:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id 0B6FC2C24B; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:33:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:33:48 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Matt Ryanczak Message-ID: <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:33:51 -0000 Hot Diggety! Matt Ryanczak was rumored to have written: > I'm curious how many fellow SAGE members have deployed, are deploying or > are experimenting with IPv6 on their networks, hosts and applications. During an extremely intensive weekend -- solely on our own time, a senior security engineer and I hashed out all the weird quirks and bugs related to IPv6 support on systems and firewall side (network side was already working). That was maybe ... hmm, 2003? 2004? So when we were told one day that we had literally 24 hours to fully support native IPv6 DNS for a major customer (during a delicate period of customer's testing for provider suitability) all because someone in-house forgot to inform us many months before, we were ready! It's gotten even easier today to deploy and support IPv6 from the server application side. There's still a fair chunk of infrastructure that needs to properly support IPv6 -- firewalls, routers, servers, apps... But when there's a will, there's a way, as a colleague is so fond of saying. :-) The big issue tend to be in the initial knowledge acquisition. Not that easy to train even smart people who's only ever known IPv4, much less support folks who may not always have the experience base or my elderly parents (as smart as my dear parents are)... Not saying people are dumb, but simply that there's enough different about IPv6 that it's not trivial. Once you find a way around that learning curve, it's usually cake from out there. With that said, older devices with older code base may not be able to handle it, whether on server, firewall, or network side. So that has to be accounted for. It's becoming more critical now because the IANA is almost out of /8 allocatable IPv4 netblocks. From my understanding, there are currently 24 allocatable /8 blocks (out of a maximum of 256). Current forecast has it that the IANA will run out of these blocks by sometime later this year and then the five RIRs (regional IP registries -- ARIN, RIPE NCC, APNIC, AfriNIC, LACNIC) may run out of allocations from the remaining blocks by sometime next year (within the first half). So from a high level POV, ~90% of IPv4 address space has been allocated. My understanding is that once IANA is down to the final five /8 blocks, they will be giving out a single /8 to each RIR with the understanding that this block be mostly used to assist in an IPv4-to-IPv6 transition. Once the remaining stash has been allocated to the RIRs, it will be up to individual ISPs to either aggressively enforce downstream NAT'ing or to actively move customers to IPv6. IPv4 address space exhaustion is ever the moving target, but wouldn't be a bad idea for people in the trenches to become familiar with v6 so that if it's sprung upon them, the answer is a quick and confident "sure, no problem", which tends to be career-enhancing. :-) For the benefit of others here: How do SAs/network admins *start* learning about IPv6? Get yer hands dirty! What if you don't already have native v6 service? No problem! Sign up for a free v6 tunnel from Hurricane Electric's tunnelbroker service (there are others, too) and use that to play around with IPv6. If it's working, 'ping ipv6.google.com' will return something. If I can get IPv6 working on estoteric platforms such as OpenVMS, so can you, on your own Macs/PCs/UNIX boxes! I say this, having assisted a few of my fellow SAs out with this stuff on my own personal time at home, recently. Disclaimer: No association with HE other than as a long-time HE TB user. -Dan, one who sees a dancing KAME turtle :-) P.S. In case you were wondering, yes, at first, I wanted to do unmentionable things to the bright guy who thought it was a great idea to leave out the systems guys who would have to support IPv6 application service. Never did find who this genius was, so I've let it go. :) All in all, worked out OK -- because I was prepared for this eventuality. *Holds up Boy Scout badge* From dsf@catbert.org Tue Feb 9 06:44:55 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19EiswB003753 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:44:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dsf@catbert.org) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [66.220.1.91]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19EiqfR016570 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:44:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id 149392C24B; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:44:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:44:52 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Richard Dakin Message-ID: <20100209144452.GB27678@catbert.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:44:55 -0000 Hot Diggety! Richard Dakin was rumored to have written: > No IPv6 here yet. A few of us have discussed it a bit "unofficially." > Going to have to present a strong case for it. We are so short on tech Exhaustion of IPv4 address space strong enough of a business case? :-) IANA projected to run out later this year and the RIRs sometime in first half of next, I think. It's a moving target, but definitely is finite. Not going to significantly get any better with the increasing uptake of Internet-enabled devices and users. > resources. We have 100 AIX LPARs, 100 RHEL VMs, and 270 Windows VMs. We AIX, as of 4.3.3 and later, definitely has good v6 support. Pretty sure about RHEL, too. Windows -- depends on version, but likely good. > support all the hosts with one AIX sysadmin, one part-time Linux > sysadmin, and three part-time Windows sysadmins. We have one CCIE on the That's OK; security guy and I hashed out end-to-end v6 support for about 5 platforms during one intense uncompensated weekend. :-) Can be done. How badly do you want it to be done? That's really the question. :-) > network team. We have three Oracle DBA and 90 databases. We support 1500 > staff here at our headquarters and >20K worldwide. We also have four > major IT project initiatives in progress. Total IT staff here is under > 100 with less than 30 in Operations(Desktop, Server, Network, and > DBA/Middleware/AIX/Linux). Average salary here is %35 below market. > Don't see us making the IPv6 move in the next five years. Well, alternative is becoming extremely familiar with NAT. See that little swell in the ocean from afar? It's a megatsunami wave. Just looks tiny from this distance, its power of destructiveness hidden. You decide how to respond; wait until it crashes into you or pick a cheaper (and wailing-and-gnashing-teeth-free) option and head it off. There are options; IPv6 deployment, more aggressive use of NAT or private IP space, etc... But simply to do nothing is probably the worst of all possible options right now. Even at least brushing up with some test (internal) v6 deployments to verify end-to-end services works (network, firewall, system, app) would probably be a big help should you suddenly get a management directive to immediately implement IPv6. Been there, done that. Just sayin'. :) -Dan From dsf@catbert.org Tue Feb 9 06:45:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19EjVor003773 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:45:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dsf@catbert.org) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [66.220.1.91]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19EjTt1016596 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:45:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id 1741B2C24B; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:45:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:45:29 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Jens Link Message-ID: <20100209144529.GC27678@catbert.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <87vde6ebbd.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87vde6ebbd.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:45:32 -0000 Hot Diggety! Jens Link was rumored to have written: > > BTW: 580days left (http://ipv6.he.net/statistics/). Time to start > learning IPv6. Agreed. -Dan From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Tue Feb 9 07:56:10 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19FuAvt005511 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 07:56:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19Fu7kP024119 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 07:56:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o19Fu3M4011437; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:56:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:56:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:56:04 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Dan Foster" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:56:11 -0000 On Tue, February 9, 2010 09:33, Dan Foster wrote: > How do SAs/network admins *start* learning about IPv6? Get yer hands > dirty! What if you don't already have native v6 service? No problem! > > Sign up for a free v6 tunnel from Hurricane Electric's tunnelbroker > service (there are others, too) and use that to play around with IPv6. > If it's working, 'ping ipv6.google.com' will return something. If I can > get IPv6 working on estoteric platforms such as OpenVMS, so can you, on > your own Macs/PCs/UNIX boxes! > > I say this, having assisted a few of my fellow SAs out with this stuff > on my own personal time at home, recently. I think a lot of SAs learn things on their own time and end up bringing it into the organizations that they work for. I think this how Linux grew over time: a free Unix-like system that you could play with at home while using a Real Unix(tm) at work. For IPv6, does anyone know equipment that supports it? I'm pretty sure that Apple's routers have good support for it, but what about other manufacturers of routers (Dlink, Netgear, etc.)? I have an old-ish Dlink that I've load the third-party Tomato firmware on, but it doesn't support IPv6. I know some other firmware does, but I'm not sure which would is good, and don't feel like bringing down my family's network to tinker with things. Now that 802.11n has been mostly finalized, I'd be willing to purchase a new dual band router. Anyone know of any that support IPv6 out-of-box? (In addition to Apple's, which are a bit pricey.) Or any 11n routers that are well-supported (e.g., WPA2) by third-party firmware? From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Tue Feb 9 08:33:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19GX7RL006319 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 08:33:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19GX4cu025399 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 08:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o19GX3ZI014452; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:33:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:33:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <56094.207.61.230.154.1265733183.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <20100209144452.GB27678@catbert.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209144452.GB27678@catbert.org> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:33:03 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Dan Foster" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 16:33:08 -0000 On Tue, February 9, 2010 09:44, Dan Foster wrote: > There are options; IPv6 deployment, more aggressive use of NAT or > private IP space, etc... But simply to do nothing is probably the worst > of all possible options right now. Well, eventually we will reach a point where new IPv4 assignments are no longer an option, so if you want to put a server (web, e-mail, etc.) on the public Internet you'll have to assign it an IPv6 address. At that point you'll need IPv6 connectivity at least via a tunnel you have set up on your network edge to an ISP (along with supporting DNS resolution). Even if you don't use in internally (relying on 10/8, 172.16/12, 192.168/16), external connectivity will be necessary. > Even at least brushing up with some test (internal) v6 deployments to > verify end-to-end services works (network, firewall, system, app) would > probably be a big help should you suddenly get a management directive to > immediately implement IPv6. Been there, done that. Just sayin'. :) For the people who have implemented IPv6, is it "better" to start from (a) the outside-in, or (b) internally first, and then going out? By (a) I mean first you set up a tunnel to an IPv6 provider, and configure a test router to be able to ping the IPv6 network. Then you'd work on getting your DNS server reachable and resolving addresses, followed by a "play" IPv6-only web or mail server. Then you work on firewalls, DMZs, and last would be user workstations. For (b), you would start with enable IPv6 on your Windows, Mac OS X, and Unix systems on a particular subnet. Then have that subnet's router advertise routing (and play with IPv6's auto-config). Then work your way "up" to servers, DNS, and connections to the outside world done towards the end. I know that some of our developers did a bit of (b) with our products' network licensing code to comply with the mandate that the US had with regards to IPv6 "readiness" a little while ago. From matt@conundrum.com Tue Feb 9 09:21:07 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19HL7Ka008002 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:21:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@conundrum.com) Received: from coke.conundrum.com (coke.conundrum.com [216.235.9.139]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19HKpqO026824 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:20:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from beer.conundrum.com (beer.conundrum.com [216.235.13.85]) by coke.conundrum.com (8.13.1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id o19H12vo047565; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 12:01:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from matt@conundrum.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Matthew Pounsett In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 12:01:01 -0500 Message-Id: <5BB048CC-2366-473A-9AA8-C15B033D3318@conundrum.com> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> To: Richard Dakin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o19HL7Ka008002 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:21:08 -0000 On 2010/02/09, at 09:29, Richard Dakin wrote: > Don't see us making the IPv6 move in the next five years. Everyone else in the thread has already covered most of the important highlights. So, just one comment about the above statement. The current estimate is that IANA will run out of v4 addresses to give to the RIRs in September 2011[1]. In Oct 2012, the same estimate has the first of the RIRs running out of v4 addresses to give to ISPs and end-user networks. The ARIN community has made some arrangements to make sure that v4 addresses continue to be available for transition technologies[2], but essentially new IPv4 deployments will no longer happen. This means that parts of the Internet will begin to be available on IPv6 only. Depending on how long a v6 deployment project takes your company, I would guess that if you wait any more than another year to start deploying IPv6 then in late 2012 there will be parts of the Internet that you can't reach, and that can't reach you. If your management is okay with that proposition, then fine. But you should alert them to this fact (if you haven't already), and give them the opportunity to find and deploy the resources you need to get started. Cheers, Matt [1] - Operated by Geoff Huston, Chief Scientist at APNIC [2] From djmitche@gmail.com Tue Feb 9 09:51:46 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19HpkXU008652 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:51:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djmitche@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bw0-f214.google.com (mail-bw0-f214.google.com [209.85.218.214]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19HpgpB027965 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:51:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz6 with SMTP id 6so5939015bwz.11 for ; Tue, 09 Feb 2010 09:51:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sIDUPukwptJ2zgGRUtZ0/E8y51aMeZUh45jKeIZgMd0=; b=ZpmF4d4XMYLS5nmjtB537F8F0kRw4fBNf2Lq7ibxH3x9F9F7kAuA1nk6cDP9H5COfA 9vY6MYFsSTUtNTSHiGVl+fs/OBbpOVfmFGqCHkDcF9cOLJMajkBYzkm7KEAKyLU15SgW +tJQzZ9ESpsUxcXKOCsAOC59wY6TNTUdlhY9w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=mbOkaFu2sfpCxdFwP82yG0/RxohX0zGBy33NPg4+O9Ck2cWd/Hw0CGgcfrgJzogOsG M/MZ10yZ5z+jtKMbfcoRf9W7y7PQ2tsnmm7Skkv8+/5DV23tN7wOR4qsUSfCCnx83rJn B1AuIwDa7e4KFXflQjWTN/ztnYe2spYWVI5vw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: djmitche@gmail.com Received: by 10.204.15.16 with SMTP id i16mr2886912bka.138.1265737896697; Tue, 09 Feb 2010 09:51:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5BB048CC-2366-473A-9AA8-C15B033D3318@conundrum.com> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <5BB048CC-2366-473A-9AA8-C15B033D3318@conundrum.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:51:36 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 173a41109c4fa54a Message-ID: <42338fbf1002090951r7a7b64dcme7be4366b4cf374@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dustin J. Mitchell" To: Matthew Pounsett Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o19HpkXU008652 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:51:47 -0000 On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote: > The current estimate is that IANA will run out of v4 addresses to give to the RIRs in September 2011[1].  In Oct 2012, the same estimate has the first of the RIRs running out of v4 addresses to give to ISPs and end-user networks.   The ARIN community has made some arrangements to make sure that v4 addresses continue to be available for transition technologies[2], but essentially new IPv4 deployments will no longer happen.  This means that parts of the Internet will begin to be available on IPv6 only. It's worth noting that this means the world will be out of *public* allocations of new IPv4 space. It does not mean that every v4 address will be in use, and certainly lots of organizations will have ample public addresses remaining. Sure, the price of these will go up -- I can get a half-dozen static IPs for my home connection for ~$10/mo, and in five years I will probably be paying a much larger premium just to get a single non-NATted IP. It's also worth remembering that IPv6 is not a completely separate network. No ISP is going to start configuring homes to *only* talk to IPv6 in the next decade. > Depending on how long a v6 deployment project takes your company, I would guess that if you wait any more than another year to start deploying IPv6 then in late 2012 there will be parts of the Internet that you can't reach, and that can't reach you. If your management is okay with that proposition, then fine. But you should alert them to this fact (if you haven't already), and give them the opportunity to find and deploy the resources you need to get started. So to suggest that, in the next two years, there will be parts of the Internet that cannot reach an IPv4-only company is rather absurd. The converse, that you will be unable to reach parts of the Internet, is valid, but it's worth asking *which* parts of the Internet, whether there are alternatives, and whether it matters to your company. I suspect that the answer will be "no". This is not to say that we should not all begin implementing IPv6, only to refute the notion that the sky will fall in the next two years. Like all protocol transitions we've seen (except digital TV), this one will be gradual, with the rate determined by market forces. Dustin -- Open Source Storage Engineer http://www.zmanda.com From matt@ryanczak.org Tue Feb 9 10:15:40 2010 Received: from zap.planetfoo.org (zap.planetfoo.org [70.164.19.160]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19IFd2d009089 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:15:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@ryanczak.org) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:e1ce:1:223:6cff:fe93:caf3] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:e1ce:1:223:6cff:fe93:caf3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zap.planetfoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B4A6D4B0497 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 13:15:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B71A643.6040808@ryanczak.org> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 13:15:31 -0500 From: Matt Ryanczak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9pre) Gecko/20100206 Lightning/1.0b1 Shredder/3.0.2pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209144452.GB27678@catbert.org> <56094.207.61.230.154.1265733183.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <56094.207.61.230.154.1265733183.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:15:40 -0000 On 02/09/2010 11:33 AM, David Magda wrote: > For the people who have implemented IPv6, is it "better" to start from (a) > the outside-in, or (b) internally first, and then going out? > At ARIN we started with an outside-in approach. We were able to find a provider that could deliver a "native" IPv6 circuit. This was in 2002 and at that time native meant tunneled everywhere but over the last mile. The biggest problem we had at the time was with PMTU discovery breakage caused by misconfigured or broken tunnels upstream. However, this circuit was good enough to begin enabling service such as DNS and we eventually moved on to web and other external facing TCP services such as whois. I did a presentation at NANOG last fall that details the timeline for IPv6 at ARIN: http://www.nanog.org/meetings/nanog47/presentations/Wednesday/Ryanczak_Kosters_history_N47_Wed.pdf Generally I think the best approach to take is outside-in. You probably want IPv6 transit for any client machines because they will want to connect to IPv6 Internet hosts. Many apps prefer IPv6, they will use a AAAA record over an A record if one exists when doing DNS lookups. There is little standardization here though and different apps and OSes behave differently. I think that having an address plan for your network is important, just as important as it is with IPv4. To me this means that having an IPv6 enabled network should precede having IPv6 enabled hosts. I'm not sure that a lack of Internet access would really change my approach. You still need to enable your network after which hosts can follow. I have found that getting networks and servers running IPv6 to be fairly straight forward. The challenge is in enabling application support. Especially for legacy applications and appliances (printers, etc) where native IPv6 is just not going to happen. We used proxies such 6tunnel or Apache's mod_proxy to enable legacy applications and devices such as printers work over IPv6. It's also worth noting that native IPv6 clients can be a challenge. DHCPv6 is not well supported by client OSes. The only OS I know of that supports everything DHCPv6 has to offer out of the box is Windows Vista (7). Linux and OSX require additional software to get working. We side-stepped this issue by dual-stacking clients and using DHCPv4 for configuring nameservers, etc and RA for configuring IPv6 addresses. This is less than ideal and not an option at all if you want to run only IPv6. One advantage to this approach is that you can dual-stack Windows XP hosts (Windows XP does not support DNS over IPv6). I look forward to better support from Linux and OSX. I know the work is being put in to network-manager on the Linux side I'm not sure about OSX. ~Matt From Ted.Nolan@sri.com Tue Feb 9 10:17:24 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19IHOaF009117 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:17:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Ted.Nolan@sri.com) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.121]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19IHL9U028879 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:17:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([10.127.143.53]) by cdptpa-qmta04.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20100209181716052.BNZU21689@cdptpa-qmta04.mail.rr.com> for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 18:17:16 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=cx58oLqiFqs2JeY19iUA:9 a=VWkrmGY4w1-EVMpMQU0_MWRd0LQA:4 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 76.182.167.7 Received: from [76.182.167.7] ([76.182.167.7:39882] helo=sri.com) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id EF/17-02313-E56A17B4; Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:15:58 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Message from "Dustin J. Mitchell" of "Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:51:36 CST." <42338fbf1002090951r7a7b64dcme7be4366b4cf374@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 13:14:17 -0500 From: Ted Nolan X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=6% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:17:25 -0000 IPV6? We've barely finished the IP to OSI transition. Oh wait.. (Seriously, I went to a whole conference on that once). Yeah, I know, the math is more inexorable this time, and I don't guess there's a new "NAT" in the wings, but maybe Pope was right Be not the first by whom the new are tried, Nor yet the last to lay the old aside From matt@ryanczak.org Tue Feb 9 10:24:18 2010 Received: from zap.planetfoo.org (zap.planetfoo.org [70.164.19.160]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19IOGOx009218 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:24:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@ryanczak.org) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:e1ce:1:223:6cff:fe93:caf3] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:e1ce:1:223:6cff:fe93:caf3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zap.planetfoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E82C44B0497 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 13:24:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B71A848.5030208@ryanczak.org> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 13:24:08 -0500 From: Matt Ryanczak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9pre) Gecko/20100206 Lightning/1.0b1 Shredder/3.0.2pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <5BB048CC-2366-473A-9AA8-C15B033D3318@conundrum.com> <42338fbf1002090951r7a7b64dcme7be4366b4cf374@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <42338fbf1002090951r7a7b64dcme7be4366b4cf374@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:24:18 -0000 On 02/09/2010 12:51 PM, Dustin J. Mitchell wrote: > It's also worth remembering that IPv6 is not a completely separate > network. No ISP is going to start configuring homes to *only* talk to > IPv6 in the next decade. > > Comcast is testing IPv6 to their users right now. While they will be supporting IPv4 it is IPv4 which will be tunneled, not the other way around. They have several approaches in the the works. IPv4/IPv6 dual-stack and native IPv6 to the end user which tunnels IPv4 to NAT boxes upstream. I believe Comcast expects to roll out IPv6 to their users in 2012. http://www.networkworld.com/news/2010/012710-comcast-ipv6-trials.html ~Matt From tal@whatexit.org Tue Feb 9 10:25:15 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19IPEKE009243 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:25:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-iw0-f196.google.com (mail-iw0-f196.google.com [209.85.223.196]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19IPBGx029302 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:25:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by iwn34 with SMTP id 34so3905770iwn.21 for ; Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:25:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.59.7 with SMTP id j7mr664925ibh.12.1265739526167; Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:18:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <42338fbf1002090951r7a7b64dcme7be4366b4cf374@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <5BB048CC-2366-473A-9AA8-C15B033D3318@conundrum.com> <42338fbf1002090951r7a7b64dcme7be4366b4cf374@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:18:46 -0800 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91002091018y5c3df8d0vc9243559b6e8e818@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: "Dustin J. Mitchell" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:25:16 -0000 >From speaking to a lot of people I've found two truisms about converting to IPv6: Case 1. If you tell your boss you want to upgrade everything to IPv6, there'll think you are crazy and kick you out of the room. Case 2. If you pick one specific application and drive to make it work IPv6, you'll look "focused and driven" and get management support (and along the way, you'll touch "everything" that "Case 1" wanted to touch) Where I work (Google) the first "Case 2" flow was "enable people to get to www.google.com via IPv6". It turn out to be easier than we expected (http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/032509-google-ipv6-easy.html) and the LAN people have started providing IPv6 to pilot buildings and soon all buildings, and the moment is growing. Tom P.S. I can't take credit for any of this. By coincidence I've been on projects that have benefitted from their work but I haven't had to do (much) direct IPv6 conversions myself. From tony@usenix.org Tue Feb 9 10:59:56 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19IxujH010053 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:59:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tony@usenix.org) Received: from lonestar.usenix.org (lonestar.usenix.org [131.106.3.102]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19IxuxE000263 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from manhattan.usenix.org (manhattan.usenix.org [131.106.3.34] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by lonestar.usenix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o19Ixt0c005625 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:59:55 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) From: Tony Del Porto In-Reply-To: <2a03c5ff1002081808x210de80bmbad4d26a259be4ff@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:59:55 -0800 Message-Id: <08355585-704D-4E68-A7A5-66843CF4658E@usenix.org> References: <2a03c5ff1002081808x210de80bmbad4d26a259be4ff@mail.gmail.com> To: SAGE mailing list X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager; whitelist X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: lonestar; whitelist X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.7 required=6.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, FH_DATE_PAST_20XX autolearn=no version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on lonestar Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o19IxujH010053 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Is eRacks a decent vendor? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:59:56 -0000 On Feb 8, 2010, at 6:08 PM, Mike Diehn wrote: > Hello SAGErs. > > I'm considering purchasing a file server from eRacks.com for a client and > would like to know about your experience dealing with them. With eRacks, > that is. I'm dealing with a person named Max. Hi Mike, I purchased a "quietized" short depth 1U from them in 2005 to run our onsite conference server. It was delivered a little later than I would have liked, allegedly due to them tuning the balance of noise and cooling. It was not especially quiet, but was otherwise in order, well built, and served its purpose for a few years, and even wound up as a temporary DNS server for our domain last year. I pulled the motherboard out of it yesterday to run dban on a bunch of disks headed for recycling. I don't consider my experience with them negative, but I've had better experiences. I purchased some hardware from IronSystems around the same time and have used them since. HTH, Tony Tony Del Porto SysAdmin USENIX Association 2560 9th Street, Suite 215, Berkeley CA 94710 510 528 8649 x16 desk tony@usenix.org | www.usenix.org http://www.usenix.org/about/tonyd.gpgkey From bergman@merctech.com Tue Feb 9 11:10:58 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19JAwW5010403 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:10:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bergman@merctech.com) Received: from l2mail1.panix.com (l2mail1.panix.com [166.84.1.75]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19JAt2M000628 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:10:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.1.73]) by l2mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DAE4F0 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:10:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E561938E43 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:10:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from merctech.com (node4.uphs.upenn.edu [165.123.243.168]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE8523066D for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:10:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by merctech.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o19JAoYb012750 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:10:50 -0500 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.2 01/07/2005 with nmh-1.3 To: SAGE mailing list From: bergman@merctech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:10:50 -0500 Message-ID: <12749.1265742650@localhost> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Subject: [SAGE] enabling Iran <=> US data exchange w/o Iranian ISP X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: bergman@merctech.com List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 19:10:59 -0000 I've got an Iranian friend here in the US who's seeking a way for relatives in Iran to be able to transfer files out of the country, particularly in the event that Iranian data networks and ISPs are shut down next week due to protests. A method for transferring files to a server outside Iran that can receive files (and then forward them on the internet) is the minimal requirement. Full internet access would be a bonus. I assume that the machine in Iran is running Windows. We discussed sat-phones, but ruled them out for a few reasons (cost, susceptibility to surveillance, possession is a de-facto offense.). We discussed having my friend set up a PC here with a modem, in order to receive calls and data. I suggested against that, as it requires a landline (which my friend does not have) and managing a modem (ick!), having his machine available 24x7, etc. One thought that came to mind was for my friend to get an account on a US (or European) ISP that offers with dial-up PPP services, and provide that to his family in Iran so that they could direct-dial to the ISP; the assumption being that the government won't cut off all international phone service (they haven't done that in the past, even during periods where data and mobile networks were shutdown). Hopefully dial-up network access would not be filtered as was broadband previously. Any suggestions, issues, known problems, or experience with such a plan? Any specific recommendations for ISPs? Any other ideas? I will treat off-list replies as confidential, unless otherwise specified. Thanks, Mark From matt@conundrum.com Tue Feb 9 11:21:28 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19JLRcH010584 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:21:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@conundrum.com) Received: from coke.conundrum.com (coke.conundrum.com [216.235.9.139]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19JLOd0000911 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:21:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from beer.conundrum.com (beer.conundrum.com [216.235.13.85]) by coke.conundrum.com (8.13.1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id o19JKd4A054609; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:20:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from matt@conundrum.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Matthew Pounsett In-Reply-To: <42338fbf1002090951r7a7b64dcme7be4366b4cf374@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:20:38 -0500 Message-Id: <8C13C45A-6FB7-479E-8AF1-6F61E4B91378@conundrum.com> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <5BB048CC-2366-473A-9AA8-C15B033D3318@conundrum.com> <42338fbf1002090951r7a7b64dcme7be4366b4cf374@mail.gmail.com> To: "Dustin J. Mitchell" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o19JLRcH010584 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 19:21:28 -0000 On 2010/02/09, at 12:51, Dustin J. Mitchell wrote: > On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote: >> The current estimate is that IANA will run out of v4 addresses to give to the RIRs in September 2011[1]. In Oct 2012, the same estimate has the first of the RIRs running out of v4 addresses to give to ISPs and end-user networks. The ARIN community has made some arrangements to make sure that v4 addresses continue to be available for transition technologies[2], but essentially new IPv4 deployments will no longer happen. This means that parts of the Internet will begin to be available on IPv6 only. > > It's worth noting that this means the world will be out of *public* > allocations of new IPv4 space. It does not mean that every v4 address > will be in use, and certainly lots of organizations will have ample > public addresses remaining. Sure, the price of these will go up -- I > can get a half-dozen static IPs for my home connection for ~$10/mo, > and in five years I will probably be paying a much larger premium just > to get a single non-NATted IP. Right, not every address will be in use. But not everyone will be able to get their hands on the few floating around. Thus, there will be IPv6-only networks. > It's also worth remembering that IPv6 is not a completely separate > network. No ISP is going to start configuring homes to *only* talk to > IPv6 in the next decade. That's what my note above about transition addresses was about. >> Depending on how long a v6 deployment project takes your company, I would guess that if you wait any more than another year to start deploying IPv6 then in late 2012 there will be parts of the Internet that you can't reach, and that can't reach you. If your management is okay with that proposition, then fine. But you should alert them to this fact (if you haven't already), and give them the opportunity to find and deploy the resources you need to get started. > > So to suggest that, in the next two years, there will be parts of the > Internet that cannot reach an IPv4-only company is rather absurd. The > converse, that you will be unable to reach parts of the Internet, is > valid, but it's worth asking *which* parts of the Internet, whether > there are alternatives, and whether it matters to your company. I > suspect that the answer will be "no". If it is valid that you will be unable to reach parts of the Internet, then it logically follows that those parts of the internet will be unable to reach you. Both ends of the connection need to be on the same protocol stack. Not everyone that needs to reach a company's web site, mail servers, etc will be coming from a home DSL/cable connection. Some of those v6-only networks I mentioned above will be new businesses. This is not to suggest that v6-only networks will be the norm in the near future. But, there will be enough of them in the next four or five years that it will matter to a lot of people. As I said above, one's management might be okay with not being able to reach those parts of the Internet, but they need to be aware that cases will come up so that they can make a conscious choice to live with that, or not, rather than being surprised by it when it happens. Matt From robert@timetraveller.org Tue Feb 9 11:50:37 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19JobCI011402 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:50:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@timetraveller.org) Received: from capella.opentrend.net (capella.opentrend.net [64.22.125.103]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19JoY4j001639 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:50:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by capella.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 06CAD137CE4; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:44:18 -0500 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on capella.opentrend.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.1 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 Received: from castor.opentrend.net (castor.opentrend.net [192.168.120.16]) by capella.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DBE0137CE1 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:44:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DE4A6CB8698D; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6D7C408E615 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:36:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:36:57 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Brockway X-X-Sender: robert@castor.opentrend.net To: SAGE mailing list In-Reply-To: <12749.1265742650@localhost> Message-ID: References: <12749.1265742650@localhost> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] enabling Iran <=> US data exchange w/o Iranian ISP X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 19:50:38 -0000 On Tue, 9 Feb 2010, bergman@merctech.com wrote: > A method for transferring files to a server outside Iran that can > receive files (and then forward them on the internet) is the minimal > requirement. Full internet access would be a bonus. Back at University I studied with some students from Iran. One day I noticed one of them was emailing an address under .ir. I asked her how she was doing it (since this was before Iran was directly connected to the Internet) and she said they were using an ISP in Pakistan and doing UUCP over the border in to Iran. > One thought that came to mind was for my friend to get an account on a > US (or European) ISP that offers with dial-up PPP services, and provide So rather than dialing an ISP in the US or Europe perhaps an ISP in Pakistan may offer a more reliable connection due to the shorted physical distance to the ISP. Obviously PPP would be a better option to UUCP these days ;) Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert@timetraveller.org IRC: Solver Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy From feenberg@nber.org Tue Feb 9 12:11:33 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19KBW4B012013 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 12:11:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from feenberg@nber.org) Received: from mail2.nber.org (mail2.nber.org [66.251.72.79]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19KBTcP002130 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 12:11:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from nber6.nber.org (nber6.nber.org [66.251.72.76]) by mail2.nber.org (8.14.3/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o19KAoUW091977 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT); Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:10:50 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from feenberg@nber.org) Received: from nber6.nber.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nber6.nber.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.12.10) with ESMTP id o19K9RRU022070; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:09:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (Unknown UID 1079@localhost) by nber6.nber.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) with ESMTP id o19K9Q31022067; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:09:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: nber6.nber.org: Unknown UID 1079 owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:09:25 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Feenberg To: Matthew Pounsett In-Reply-To: <8C13C45A-6FB7-479E-8AF1-6F61E4B91378@conundrum.com> Message-ID: References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <5BB048CC-2366-473A-9AA8-C15B033D3318@conundrum.com> <42338fbf1002090951r7a7b64dcme7be4366b4cf374@mail.gmail.com> <8C13C45A-6FB7-479E-8AF1-6F61E4B91378@conundrum.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Anti-Virus: Kaspersky Anti-Virus for Linux Mail Server 5.6.39/RELEASE, bases: 20100209 #3454616, check: 20100209 clean X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=36% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:11:35 -0000 On Tue, 9 Feb 2010, Matthew Pounsett wrote: > > On 2010/02/09, at 12:51, Dustin J. Mitchell wrote: > >> On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote: >>> The current estimate is that IANA will run out of v4 addresses to give to the RIRs in September 2011[1]. In Oct 2012, the same estimate has the first of the RIRs running out of v4 addresses to give to ISPs and end-user networks. The ARIN community has made some arrangements to make sure that v4 addresses continue to be available for transition technologies[2], but essentially new IPv4 deployments will no longer happen. This means that parts of the Internet will begin to be available on IPv6 only. >> >> It's worth noting that this means the world will be out of *public* >> allocations of new IPv4 space. It does not mean that every v4 address >> will be in use, and certainly lots of organizations will have ample >> public addresses remaining. Sure, the price of these will go up -- I >> can get a half-dozen static IPs for my home connection for ~$10/mo, >> and in five years I will probably be paying a much larger premium just >> to get a single non-NATted IP. > > Right, not every address will be in use. But not everyone will be able to get their hands on the few floating around. Thus, there will be IPv6-only networks. > >> It's also worth remembering that IPv6 is not a completely separate >> network. No ISP is going to start configuring homes to *only* talk to >> IPv6 in the next decade. > > That's what my note above about transition addresses was about. > >>> Depending on how long a v6 deployment project takes your company, I would guess that if you wait any more than another year to start deploying IPv6 then in late 2012 there will be parts of the Internet that you can't reach, and that can't reach you. If your management is okay with that proposition, then fine. But you should alert them to this fact (if you haven't already), and give them the opportunity to find and deploy the resources you need to get started. >> >> So to suggest that, in the next two years, there will be parts of the >> Internet that cannot reach an IPv4-only company is rather absurd. The >> converse, that you will be unable to reach parts of the Internet, is >> valid, but it's worth asking *which* parts of the Internet, whether >> there are alternatives, and whether it matters to your company. I >> suspect that the answer will be "no". > > If it is valid that you will be unable to reach parts of the Internet, > then it logically follows that those parts of the internet will be > unable to reach you. Both ends of the connection need to be on the same > protocol stack. A v4 client will not be able to reach v6-only servers, if such servers exist. But I think it very unlikely that even the most v6 oriented network couldn't find a few v4 addresses for it publicly available servers, and so the likelihood that a v4 only client will notice this disability is very small. There are already many mail and web servers offering v6 service, however as far as I can tell, all are also available via v4, and it hardly seems likely that will ever change. Consider the loss of connectivity experienced by such a server - it would make all the DNSBLs in the world together look like a minor nuisance. With 2 billion v4 addresses available, and most of them assigned to home router/nat boxes it seems unlikely that the price of few v4 addresses could ever get very high. Cable and phone companies can recover v4 addresses with a very minor price differential between v4 and v6 (or natted) service. > > Not everyone that needs to reach a company's web site, mail servers, etc > will be coming from a home DSL/cable connection. Some of those v6-only > networks I mentioned above will be new businesses. I really doubt anyone would put up a v6-only client without some mechanism to reach v4 servers. What would be the advantage? Perhaps for an internal private network. Daniel Feenberg From karl@dakota-st.com Tue Feb 9 12:45:28 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19KjSAj012866 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 12:45:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@dakota-st.com) Received: from mail.bugs-r.us (mail.bugs-r.us [174.143.233.251]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19KjPW6002911 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 12:45:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.bugs-r.us (mail.bugs-r.us [174.143.233.251]) by mail.bugs-r.us (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o19Jq14P005007 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:52:01 GMT Received: from localhost (karl@localhost) by mail.bugs-r.us (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) with ESMTP id o19Jq18X005004 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:52:01 GMT Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:52:01 +0000 (UTC) From: Karl Schlitt To: SAGE mailing list In-Reply-To: <12749.1265742650@localhost> Message-ID: References: <12749.1265742650@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] enabling Iran <=> US data exchange w/o Iranian ISP X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:45:29 -0000 On Tue, 9 Feb 2010, bergman@merctech.com wrote: > > I've got an Iranian friend here in the US who's seeking a way for relatives > in Iran to be able to transfer files out of the country, particularly in > the event that Iranian data networks and ISPs are shut down next week due > to protests. > > A method for transferring files to a server outside Iran that can > receive files (and then forward them on the internet) is the minimal > requirement. Full internet access would be a bonus. > > I assume that the machine in Iran is running Windows. > > We discussed sat-phones, but ruled them out for a few reasons (cost, > susceptibility to surveillance, possession is a de-facto offense.). > > We discussed having my friend set up a PC here with a modem, in order to > receive calls and data. I suggested against that, as it requires a landline > (which my friend does not have) and managing a modem (ick!), having his machine > available 24x7, etc. > > One thought that came to mind was for my friend to get an account on a > US (or European) ISP that offers with dial-up PPP services, and provide > that to his family in Iran so that they could direct-dial to the ISP; > the assumption being that the government won't cut off all international > phone service (they haven't done that in the past, even during periods > where data and mobile networks were shutdown). Hopefully dial-up network > access would not be filtered as was broadband previously. > > Any suggestions, issues, known problems, or experience with such a plan? > > Any specific recommendations for ISPs? > > Any other ideas? > > I will treat off-list replies as confidential, unless otherwise specified. > > Thanks, > > Mark > "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes driving down the freeway." -- Tanenbaum, Andrew S. or in this case, maybe a usb device in a DHL truck? -- karl@dakota-st.com karl@bugs-r.us From tal@whatexit.org Tue Feb 9 14:08:55 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19M8svP014742 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:08:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-iw0-f201.google.com (mail-iw0-f201.google.com [209.85.223.201]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19M8pSk009774 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:08:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by iwn39 with SMTP id 39so8996345iwn.1 for ; Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:08:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.168.132 with SMTP id u4mr129645iby.79.1265753326117; Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:08:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <12749.1265742650@localhost> References: <12749.1265742650@localhost> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:08:46 -0800 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91002091408s1cfefe89v7123d522f90c1fa4@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: bergman@merctech.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=8% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] enabling Iran <=> US data exchange w/o Iranian ISP X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 22:08:55 -0000 Two recommendations: Something like a daily rsync would have the benefit of being excellent for incremental updates. Once the main copy is done, repeating the same command every day would be fairly fast. You could bootstrap the process by sending physical media to the destination, then do rsync's after that. If you want to be more high tech, implement DTN. If you missed the fantastic talk at the last LISA conference, view it online here: http://www.usenix.org/event/lisa09/tech/tech.html#scott The open source implementation could really use enhancements from the world of people that need incremental updates. For example, you could send each incremental update via DTN every day, and use a Reed-Solomon (or similar) algorithms so that if one update gets lost it still all works. Tom From jens@quux.de Wed Feb 10 02:44:16 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AAiGfY032094 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 02:44:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1AAiCdb002306 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 02:44:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 28169 invoked by uid 0); 10 Feb 2010 11:44:07 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 28166, pid: 28167, t: 0.0663s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 10 Feb 2010 11:44:06 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1NfA3B-0005GQ-00 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:44:05 +0100 From: Jens Link To: SAGE mailing list Organization: - References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209144452.GB27678@catbert.org> <56094.207.61.230.154.1265733183.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:44:05 +0100 In-Reply-To: <56094.207.61.230.154.1265733183.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> (David Magda's message of "Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:33:03 -0500 (EST)") Message-ID: <877hql9xqi.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:44:17 -0000 "David Magda" writes: > For the people who have implemented IPv6, is it "better" to start from (a) > the outside-in, or (b) internally first, and then going out? (a)! If you don't have any IPv6 connectivity an you are turning on IPv6 internally (using globally route able address) you will run into some serious problems and a lot of dissatisfied users: (Most) modern operating systems and applications prefer IPv6 over IPv4. So if you want to visit www.google.com (and Goolge is announcing AAAA records) your browser will try to connect via IPv6. With no connectivity to the outside it will take some time till the browser falls back to via IPv4. So I would suggest: 1. Learn in a test network 2. Configure your firewall(s) and routing to the Internet 3. slowly start implementing IPv6 You also should be prepared to expect resistance against IPv6 ("We don't need this." We don't have time." "We still have plenty IPv4 addresses"....) and to see some errors that will be have nothing to do with IPv6 but will be blamed on IPv6. Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jens@quux.de Wed Feb 10 03:18:39 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1ABIdX6033147 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 03:18:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1ABIZKW003101 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 03:18:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 4209 invoked by uid 0); 10 Feb 2010 12:18:30 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 4206, pid: 4207, t: 0.0596s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 10 Feb 2010 12:18:30 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1NfAaS-0005xm-00 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:18:28 +0100 From: Jens Link To: SAGE mailing list Organization: - References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:18:28 +0100 In-Reply-To: <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> (David Magda's message of "Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:56:04 -0500 (EST)") Message-ID: <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:18:40 -0000 "David Magda" writes: > For IPv6, does anyone know equipment that supports it? I'm pretty sure > that Apple's routers have good support for it, but what about other > manufacturers of routers (Dlink, Netgear, etc.)? I have a Cisco 871 at home which works quite well. OpenWRT supports IPv6 in some (all?) versions. AVM (http://www.avm.de/en/index.php3) has a beta firmware for some of their routers which offers very good IPv6 support. Jens P.S. If you're going the Cisco way don't buy an 861 if you want to use IPv6. It's the only model with no IPv6 support. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Wed Feb 10 06:56:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AEu8BG039608 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 06:56:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1AEu5SQ008152 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 06:56:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1AEu75E026549; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:56:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <58258.207.61.230.154.1265813767.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:56:07 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Jens Link" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:56:09 -0000 On Wed, February 10, 2010 06:18, Jens Link wrote: > I have a Cisco 871 at home which works quite well. OpenWRT supports IPv6 > in some (all?) versions. > > AVM (http://www.avm.de/en/index.php3) has a beta firmware for some of > their routers which offers very good IPv6 support. > > Jens > P.S. If you're going the Cisco way don't buy an 861 if you want to use > IPv6. It's the only model with no IPv6 support. The 871 does not have 802.11n AFAICT; I'd have to go to an 881: http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/routers/ps380/prod_models_comparison.html I'm thinking Cisco is overkill for me. And having to deal with it at work (though from the server side), I'd match rather go with a Juniper solution if possible. :) AVM products do not seem to be available in Canada (or even the US). Thanks for the info. I know of many of the third-party firmware (e.g., OpenWRT), but have have found the interfaces to most to be lacking in some way. I guess I'll wait it out a little longer to see what the "market" does. From tal@whatexit.org Wed Feb 10 08:51:46 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AGpkTG042763 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:51:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-iw0-f189.google.com (mail-iw0-f189.google.com [209.85.223.189]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1AGpgus010827 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:51:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by iwn27 with SMTP id 27so198351iwn.20 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:51:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.154.207 with SMTP id p15mr810131ibw.71.1265820334624; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:45:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <877hql9xqi.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209144452.GB27678@catbert.org> <56094.207.61.230.154.1265733183.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql9xqi.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:45:34 -0800 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91002100845k707f26ebi7017fe0c3a12df63@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: Jens Link Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=8% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:51:46 -0000 Another way to do "outside -> in" is to get your company's external web server accessible via IPv6. This forces you to deal with all the ISP issues, routing, etc. In fact, if your web site is behind some kind of reverse proxy/load balancer, a good first step is to get IPv6 to the reverse proxy. You can have your reverse proxy translate to IPv4, leaving your Web Servers at IPv4 (at first) world <--> ISP <--> ReverseProxy <--> WebServerFarm IPv6 IPv6 IPv6 IPv4 Eventually you can convert systems in your web farm to IPv6 too. There are big benefits to being able to do the conversions in small, incremental steps. Tom From gary.richardson@gmail.com Wed Feb 10 08:55:41 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AGteO9042886 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:55:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gary.richardson@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f188.google.com (mail-pz0-f188.google.com [209.85.222.188]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1AGtcsn010951 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:55:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by pzk26 with SMTP id 26so224197pzk.26 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:55:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=jsDshW30QWcOFMzBl5sd/k09EL4KoWNrDe+8TMLI9RE=; b=IWzzP2VSFckINmryjt7/hSyctP7Xe7Jb1ZNQpzmiDtCQLL5Eiih2imBMXDpJgzEPp+ DXcN1w6k7P6vWFHkZVWo/Zt6UHq+6QQcQq09a/as+FfebNbHTEPlEDvyBlGieHG6WPQo htRrIJPf1FHJCsPBd/GFMjBqSHoxkPmzTKNWs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=RocucP5JLePGonqJYy9fX1qk3F+CSa907T35j8Oz1FRsgU7+CDsoKMnJOkE+uMuuCC 0+G9SLiRdnZeZ2n3IBx9FE0LEDY4ya2g3hUrxwdy2s0nY9wge3jL9S3riSexfgOqgncq QNWrWiYe2CfMUQY49Tx00nisoQd2Yb8BPfyeM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.65.17 with SMTP id s17mr287154wak.100.1265819441884; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:30:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:30:41 -0800 Message-ID: From: Gary Richardson To: SAGE mailing list X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=4% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:55:41 -0000 This thread peaked my interest. Last night I spent about an hour getting IPv6 going on my home network using an wrt54g that was already running OpenWRT. I used http://www.757.org/~joat/wiki/index.php/IPv6_on_the_WRT54G_via_OpenWRT as a reference and everything seems to be running smoothly. I'm able to get to http://ipv6.google.com from my Macs. Going to http://ipv6.net/ seems to be random about whether it reports my ipv4 or ipv6 address. On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 3:18 AM, Jens Link wrote: > "David Magda" writes: > > > For IPv6, does anyone know equipment that supports it? I'm pretty sure > > that Apple's routers have good support for it, but what about other > > manufacturers of routers (Dlink, Netgear, etc.)? > > I have a Cisco 871 at home which works quite well. OpenWRT supports IPv6 > in some (all?) versions. > > AVM (http://www.avm.de/en/index.php3) has a beta firmware for some of > their routers which offers very good IPv6 support. > > Jens > P.S. If you're going the Cisco way don't buy an 861 if you want to use > IPv6. It's the only model with no IPv6 support. > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | > | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From matt@ryanczak.org Wed Feb 10 09:10:23 2010 Received: from zap.planetfoo.org (zap.planetfoo.org [70.164.19.160]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AHANPs043353 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:10:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@ryanczak.org) Received: from [192.168.35.85] (pool-74-96-117-155.washdc.fios.verizon.net [74.96.117.155]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zap.planetfoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 294D24B0558 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:10:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B72E878.302@ryanczak.org> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:10:16 -0500 From: Matt Ryanczak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9pre) Gecko/20100206 Lightning/1.0b1 Shredder/3.0.2pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:10:23 -0000 On 02/10/2010 11:30 AM, Gary Richardson wrote: > I'm able to get to http://ipv6.google.com from my Macs. Going to > http://ipv6.net/ seems to be random about whether it reports my ipv4 or ipv6 > address. > > OSX (Snow leopard) does weird stuff with IPv6. It seems to try to connect to both the v4 and v6 address of a host and it uses which ever ACKs first. It makes testing v6 stuff interesting :) ~Matt From brent@netomata.com Wed Feb 10 09:54:27 2010 Received: from mail-iw0-f176.google.com (mail-iw0-f176.google.com [209.85.223.176]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AHsRhp044539 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:54:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brent@netomata.com) Received: by iwn6 with SMTP id 6so284641iwn.15 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:54:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.147.199 with SMTP id m7mr931168ibv.87.1265824461685; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:54:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B72E878.302@ryanczak.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <4B72E878.302@ryanczak.org> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:54:21 -0800 Message-ID: From: Brent Chapman To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:54:28 -0000 On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Matt Ryanczak wrote: > On 02/10/2010 11:30 AM, Gary Richardson wrote: > > I'm able to get to http://ipv6.google.com from my Macs. Going to > > http://ipv6.net/ seems to be random about whether it reports my ipv4 or > ipv6 > > address. > > > > > OSX (Snow leopard) does weird stuff with IPv6. It seems to try to > connect to both the v4 and v6 address of a host and it uses which ever > ACKs first. It makes testing v6 stuff interesting :) I would expect this to vary by application... That seems to be the behavior that I'm seeing, anyway. "ssh", for example, prefers IPv6 if there is an AAAA record published; it definitely doesn't seem to try both the IPv4 and IPv6 addresses simultaneously. Here's some interesting info about IPv6 in Mac OS X: http://ipv6int.net/systems/mac_os_x-ipv6.html -Brent -- Brent Chapman Netomata, Inc. -- www.netomata.com Making networks more cost-effective, reliable, and flexible by automating network configuration From dsf@catbert.org Wed Feb 10 09:57:40 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AHvekO044627 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:57:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dsf@catbert.org) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [66.220.1.91]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1AHvb6M012879 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:57:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id A15C92C24D; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:57:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:57:37 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: David Magda Message-ID: <20100210175737.GA31811@catbert.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209144452.GB27678@catbert.org> <56094.207.61.230.154.1265733183.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <56094.207.61.230.154.1265733183.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:57:41 -0000 Hot Diggety! David Magda was rumored to have written: > > For the people who have implemented IPv6, is it "better" to start from (a) > the outside-in, or (b) internally first, and then going out? I'm personally more fond of option 'a' than 'b', though Tom Limoncelli's recent suggestion (which we looked at a while ago and agreed was good) is also another way to tackle it. Of note, these options works best if it's implemented before the need becomes critical. That won't be for a while yet, but would suck if I had to put together network, firewall, host, app, staff training, user education in a majorly compressed timeframe. YMMV and all that jazz. An incremental approach is definitely most ideal. I personally like to get something going network-wise first, followed by at least basic firewall or router ACL v6 rules, then DNS servers listening on tcp6 sockets immediately afterwards, then fleshing out 'all the rest' bit by bit in prioritized groups for groups of apps or servers. That makes it a more manageable task and spread over time. In the early days, native v6 wasn't an option. So we set up tunnelled v6. Not the most optimal solution but it was good enough for getting us past the initial network validation period, and also allowed me to work on the server end of things in parallel. Then down the road, once native v6 was available and rock solid stable, we switched over to that and life was good. Tunnelled v6 may not be such so attractive if tunnels involves flinging packets through a remote data center -- if apps are latency sensitive, they _may_ need to wait for native v6 service. But wasn't really a problem since we didn't load the tunnels with latency-sensitive traffic during the early bringup phase. -Dan From dsf@catbert.org Wed Feb 10 10:29:30 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AITUru045256 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:29:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dsf@catbert.org) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [66.220.1.91]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1AITRmx013870 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:29:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id 888C42C24D; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:29:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:29:27 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: David Magda Message-ID: <20100210182927.GB31811@catbert.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:29:31 -0000 Hot Diggety! David Magda was rumored to have written: > > For IPv6, does anyone know equipment that supports it? I'm pretty sure > that Apple's routers have good support for it, but what about other > manufacturers of routers (Dlink, Netgear, etc.)? The list of documented out-of-the-box mfr-supported wireless access points that supports IPv6 is a little on the short side for my liking: http://www.sixxs.net/wiki/Routers There's probably more, just either not known or documented. Apple's Airport Extreme Base Station is the best known of the major mfrs. Can't say I was wild about the price but after some Amazon gift certificates, it's now about $60 for me which is much more palatable. I'm actually a little disappointed with my Linksys WRT300N AP since it's been decent enough for *all* purposes _except_ supporting IP proto 41 (IPv6-in-IPv4) where these packets just simply gets dropped. Pigs will fly _before_ my home ISP supports v6 natively. :-) At $WORK, I've got native v6 which is sweet. $HOME, well, there's HE's tunnelbroker. The WRT54G is the best known AP for supporting v6, especially with an OpenWRT firmware. But I'm reluctant to deal with replacing the firmware with a third party one even though I'm technically capable of it. Besides, having had a taste of 802.11n, there's no going back. :-) > I have an old-ish Dlink that I've load the third-party Tomato firmware on, > but it doesn't support IPv6. I know some other firmware does, but I'm not > sure which would is good, and don't feel like bringing down my family's > network to tinker with things. There are forums for OpenWRT users where you could ask these questions and get the answers you seek quickly. I don't hang out there but have seen them in passing while searching, and answers seems pretty good: https://forum.openwrt.org/ They also have a hardware matrix with information on firmware support status: http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/start http://wiki.openwrt.org/oldwiki/tableofhardware > Now that 802.11n has been mostly finalized, I'd be willing to purchase a > new dual band router. Anyone know of any that support IPv6 out-of-box? (In > addition to Apple's, which are a bit pricey.) Or any 11n routers that are > well-supported (e.g., WPA2) by third-party firmware? Be careful about one thing that I discovered while doing research on this earlier: some mfr-supported devices do some really funky stuff. One established an automatic IPv6 tunnel -- coupled with v6 autodiscovery by workstations, ended up sending users' traffic to another continent with no known way to disable this odd behavior. With a few other devices, they support v6 but provide no configuration for it. Additionally, with some devices, *which* revision of the unit it is, sometimes that turns into a show-stopper issue for v6 tunnels. Apple's AEBS is a little on the minimal side, config-wise for v6, but at least it's there and more importantly, it works as advertised from what I've read. If the AEBS is based on Darwin under the hood, then it's probably logical it's got v6 support as Darwin has supported v6 since around 2002-2003. I don't feel like being a v6 beta tester for mfrs' supported devices, and don't want to risk being blacklisted by Amazon for life with too many returns (threshold can be low sometimes). So I'm sticking with known solid devices and manufacturers. -Dan P.S. Tip for folks looking at IPv6 service, even tunnelled -- don't forget to configure ip6tables (or pf or ...)! I see too many people lock down their v4 config but inexplicably leave v6 wide open (ignorance? who knows) and that gives the blackhats a field day digging around. From jsbillin@umich.edu Wed Feb 10 10:37:39 2010 Received: from tombraider.mr.itd.umich.edu (smtp.mail.umich.edu [141.211.93.161]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AIbc46045576 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:37:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jsbillin@umich.edu) Received: FROM caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu (caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu [141.213.40.47]) By tombraider.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 4B72FCF2.16FED.9727 ; Authuser jsbillin; 10 Feb 2010 13:37:38 EST Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:36:46 -0500 From: Jonathan Billings To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Message-ID: <20100210183646.GA2289@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20100210182927.GB31811@catbert.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100210182927.GB31811@catbert.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-08-17) Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:37:39 -0000 On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 01:29:27PM -0500, Dan Foster wrote: > Apple's Airport Extreme Base Station is the best known of the major mfrs. > Can't say I was wild about the price but after some Amazon gift > certificates, it's now about $60 for me which is much more palatable. I just set up my Airport Extreme yesterday, and the problem I encountered was that the latest firmware seems to have a bug in it, where if the system uses DHCP or PPPoE to get it's external IP, it simply doesn't set up ipv6, even though it is properly configured in the settings. Changing it to a Static IP made it work. -- Jonathan Billings College of Engineering - CAEN - Unix and Linux Support From prvs=065759e669=phil.pennock@globnix.org Wed Feb 10 11:58:17 2010 Received: from mx.spodhuis.org (redoubt.spodhuis.org [94.142.241.89]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AJwGNs048136 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:58:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from prvs=065759e669=phil.pennock@globnix.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=globnix.org; s=d200912; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=0QAp+dnw8zLQmsg0N6jB19FdSzV/oqEDVwVWQ8Cgc08=; b=krismMR4v4eI5DgLN06/DbO3vbiJ5zQPjqvTogmHrucmK2LbHnOdm5PVerrA6i07RwLVeiTy0wLlx9CFU6ZdCi9chJ3hlgO5be4dtEXl5FsuJDDNndl6Lae0PqxDh9+MIOP9dW7DdSGE0sB0dCfmHvtOcUyZknWoc6mwREOtUkc=; Received: by smtp.spodhuis.org with local id 1NfIhP-000LMz-U4; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 19:58:11 +0000 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:58:11 +0100 From: Phil Pennock To: Jonathan Billings Message-ID: <20100210195811.GA81956@redoubt.spodhuis.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20100210182927.GB31811@catbert.org> <20100210183646.GA2289@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100210183646.GA2289@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu> Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 19:58:17 -0000 On 2010-02-10 at 13:36 -0500, Jonathan Billings wrote: > On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 01:29:27PM -0500, Dan Foster wrote: > > Apple's Airport Extreme Base Station is the best known of the major mfrs. > > Can't say I was wild about the price but after some Amazon gift > > certificates, it's now about $60 for me which is much more palatable. > > I just set up my Airport Extreme yesterday, and the problem I > encountered was that the latest firmware seems to have a bug in it, > where if the system uses DHCP or PPPoE to get it's external IP, it > simply doesn't set up ipv6, even though it is properly configured in > the settings. Changing it to a Static IP made it work. When I last used an Airport Extreme, it was happy to use 6to4 (RFCs 3056, 3068, 3964 & 5158) to do automatic tunnelling when obtaining an address via DHCP, but would not set up a statically configured tunnel unless its WAN link was also statically configured. Worked nicely, I'd go back in a heartbeat, if there were a sane way to stay up-to-date without a Mac computer. -Phil From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Wed Feb 10 18:57:41 2010 Received: from tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.4]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1B2vemT061554 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:57:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toip3.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.86]) by tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100211025730.WGFY11823.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip3.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:57:30 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAC77cktMQR99/2dsb2JhbAAH2XCEVQSDEw Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279336317.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.65.31.125]) by toip3.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 10 Feb 2010 21:46:08 -0500 Message-Id: From: David Magda To: Brent Chapman In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:57:29 -0500 References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <4B72E878.302@ryanczak.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 02:57:41 -0000 On Feb 10, 2010, at 12:54, Brent Chapman wrote: > On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Matt Ryanczak > wrote: > >> OSX (Snow leopard) does weird stuff with IPv6. It seems to try to >> connect to both the v4 and v6 address of a host and it uses which >> ever >> ACKs first. It makes testing v6 stuff interesting :) > > I would expect this to vary by application... That seems to be the > behavior > that I'm seeing, anyway. "ssh", for example, prefers IPv6 if there > is an > AAAA record published; it definitely doesn't seem to try both the > IPv4 and > IPv6 addresses simultaneously. > > Here's some interesting info about IPv6 in Mac OS X: > > http://ipv6int.net/systems/mac_os_x-ipv6.html Stuart Cheshire of Apple gave a talk at IETF 72 on the topic of IPv6 adoption that has elements of user experience considerations: http://www.stuartcheshire.org/IETF72/ From matt@ryanczak.org Thu Feb 11 04:58:26 2010 Received: from zap.planetfoo.org (zap.planetfoo.org [70.164.19.160]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1BCwPLu077306 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 04:58:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@ryanczak.org) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:e1ce:1:223:6cff:fe93:caf3] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:e1ce:1:223:6cff:fe93:caf3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zap.planetfoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 93A414B048A for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 07:58:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B73FEEA.8050107@ryanczak.org> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 07:58:18 -0500 From: Matt Ryanczak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9pre) Gecko/20100210 Lightning/1.0b1 Shredder/3.0.2pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <4B72E878.302@ryanczak.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 12:58:26 -0000 On 02/10/2010 12:54 PM, Brent Chapman wrote: > I would expect this to vary by application... That seems to be the behavior > that I'm seeing, anyway. "ssh", for example, prefers IPv6 if there is an > AAAA record published; it definitely doesn't seem to try both the IPv4 and > IPv6 addresses simultaneously. > > Here's some interesting info about IPv6 in Mac OS X: > > http://ipv6int.net/systems/mac_os_x-ipv6.html > > It does vary by application which makes the behavior more problematic IMHO. Give Safari or some other native Apple app a try. From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Feb 11 05:59:26 2010 Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1BDxQ19078778 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 05:59:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1BDxVnE012403; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:59:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:59:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <61540.207.61.230.154.1265896771.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <4B73FEEA.8050107@ryanczak.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <4B72E878.302@ryanczak.org> <4B73FEEA.8050107@ryanczak.org> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:59:31 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Matt Ryanczak" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:59:27 -0000 On Thu, February 11, 2010 07:58, Matt Ryanczak wrote: > It does vary by application which makes the behavior more problematic > IMHO. Give Safari or some other native Apple app a try. "Modern" apps that use things like Apple's Cocoa and Java can call APIs that return an object that will open a connection given a hostname and port--regardless of the IP protocol, which the application will never know or care about. Code that uses the "legacy" system calls like getaddrinfo() get a pointer back which they must iterate through--with AAAA records often being attempted first, usually working on the assumption that if an IPv6 record exists, then it's been put there explicitly and so desirable to use first. The above is the gist of Stuart Cheshire's talk (at least the part on IPv6 support in applications). From frank@crawford.emu.id.au Fri Feb 12 02:37:40 2010 Received: from ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net (ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net [150.101.137.143]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1CAbcoV012350 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:37:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frank@crawford.emu.id.au) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApsEAMO7dEs7p/2A/2dsb2JhbACbdr4zhFgEjiY Received: from ppp167-253-128.static.internode.on.net (HELO bits.crawford.emu.id.au) ([59.167.253.128]) by ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 12 Feb 2010 21:07:37 +1030 Received: from [203.16.204.7] (agc.crawford.emu.id.au [203.16.204.7]) by bits.crawford.emu.id.au (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1CAbXu7032233; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 21:37:34 +1100 From: Frank Crawford To: Jonathan Billings In-Reply-To: <20100210183646.GA2289@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20100210182927.GB31811@catbert.org> <20100210183646.GA2289@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 21:37:33 +1100 Message-ID: <1265971053.16957.3.camel@agc.crawford.emu.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.2 (2.28.2-1.fc12) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (bits.crawford.emu.id.au [203.16.204.1]); Fri, 12 Feb 2010 21:37:35 +1100 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at bits.crawford.emu.id.au X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.0 (2010-01-18) on bits.crawford.emu.id.au Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:37:41 -0000 On Wed, 2010-02-10 at 13:36 -0500, Jonathan Billings wrote: > On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 01:29:27PM -0500, Dan Foster wrote: > > Apple's Airport Extreme Base Station is the best known of the major mfrs. > > Can't say I was wild about the price but after some Amazon gift > > certificates, it's now about $60 for me which is much more palatable. > > I just set up my Airport Extreme yesterday, and the problem I > encountered was that the latest firmware seems to have a bug in it, > where if the system uses DHCP or PPPoE to get it's external IP, it > simply doesn't set up ipv6, even though it is properly configured in > the settings. Changing it to a Static IP made it work. I don't believe that Airports support DHCPv6 (which is a different protocol after all to DHCP). It does support IPv6 configured through router advertisements and autoconfiguration. I remember seeing somewhere that Apple developers are complaining about supporting more address configuration protocols, and so didn't intent to support DHCPv6. Regards Frank From brontolinux@gmail.com Fri Feb 12 03:41:33 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1CBfXdC014404 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:41:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brontolinux@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ew0-f227.google.com (mail-ew0-f227.google.com [209.85.219.227]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1CBfU3l000369 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:41:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by ewy27 with SMTP id 27so2441052ewy.18 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:41:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=m1pVJ7/JeObQYTBoo3hdj07ZuOW/1Ez/KeoUy+7Qw1o=; b=mrdPOY0EqxWm2LHx/zyy3GMwOKw5x6ImVC3b94yH+9pgSSH4dPbUedmzWYcuZWe5hG 9ZJpGVfIms4Yu22vhdIR+1j2/sTesRG1AkupZUv76tZ15dwO7iFnktH5JcYz9pG5C964 WebRuv1xnLhBuJ38zHnTC8Is43FxWPVSJjOZ8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=LUEjGASnw0FliYGuSyWKhAoHlTBJ3eAkMl/3J+KptJjUNFF4RHh7f2NReA07u/0H8N E0/aRZlO6vK07TafObflDu+VAjxo7Vqx0Z9VB+Oj/gLquZJvSsEaEQ+bhRM0CAkn0kEX smlT90n+XxUoC2XfFYVV8M1PFTGGGU+sWsLec= Received: by 10.213.97.25 with SMTP id j25mr54539ebn.12.1265974884186; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:41:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.20.18.50? (pat-tdc.opera.com [213.236.208.22]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 28sm7938385eye.39.2010.02.12.03.41.23 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:41:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B753E5D.6090908@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:41:17 +0100 From: Marco Marongiu User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Subject: [SAGE] Importing an existing environment into OpenQRM X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:41:34 -0000 Hi there I am going through the documentation of OpenQRM 4.6 and it looks great! I'd be glad if those of you that are actively using it (or did in the past) could share their experience about it, be it a positive or a negative one. Besides, I can't find if it is possible to "import" an existing virtualized environment into OpenQRM. Any success stories on this? Thanks Ciao --bronto From jens@quux.de Fri Feb 12 10:03:35 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1CI3Yqf023432 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:03:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1CI3UMC010651 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3573 invoked by uid 0); 12 Feb 2010 19:03:28 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 3569, pid: 3571, t: 0.0708s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 12 Feb 2010 19:03:28 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1NfzrS-0006Qn-00 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:03:26 +0100 From: Jens Link To: "SAGE mailing list" Organization: - References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <58258.207.61.230.154.1265813767.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:03:26 +0100 In-Reply-To: <58258.207.61.230.154.1265813767.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> (David Magda's message of "Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:56:07 -0500 (EST)") Message-ID: <87zl3e2uxd.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:03:35 -0000 "David Magda" writes: > I'm thinking Cisco is overkill for me. And having to deal with it at > work (though from the server side), I'd match rather go with a Juniper > solution if possible. :) Juniper is nice but their smallest router is way to big for a home connection. And they do have fans. > AVM products do not seem to be available in Canada (or even the US). I didn't check that. But they are relay big in Germany. cheers Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jens@quux.de Fri Feb 12 10:10:46 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1CIAkpt023538 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:10:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1CIAgDG010854 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:10:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 4883 invoked by uid 0); 12 Feb 2010 19:10:37 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 4880, pid: 4881, t: 0.0622s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 12 Feb 2010 19:10:37 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1NfzyN-0006aL-00 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:10:35 +0100 From: Jens Link To: SAGE mailing list Organization: - References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209144452.GB27678@catbert.org> <56094.207.61.230.154.1265733183.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql9xqi.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <7d49b3d91002100845k707f26ebi7017fe0c3a12df63@mail.gmail.com> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:10:35 +0100 In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91002100845k707f26ebi7017fe0c3a12df63@mail.gmail.com> (Tom Limoncelli's message of "Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:45:34 -0800") Message-ID: <87vde22ulg.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:10:46 -0000 Tom Limoncelli writes: > Another way to do "outside -> in" is to get your company's external > web server accessible via IPv6. This forces you to deal with all the > ISP issues, routing, etc. I don't see much difference to my approach. You have to deal with routing and firewalling first. Then you move on to the services. > There are big benefits to being able to do the conversions in small, > incremental steps. That true. Changing to many things at once will most probably break things and will lead IPv6 agnostic colleagues to hate IPv6 even more and your management will probably not support more work on IPv6 until absolutely necessary (and then you are back to doing all at once and you'll be probably make more mistakes). Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gmd@kurai.org Fri Feb 12 10:18:17 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1CIIGtO023662 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:18:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmd@kurai.org) Received: from mail-ew0-f222.google.com (mail-ew0-f222.google.com [209.85.219.222]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1CIIDeJ011066 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:18:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by ewy22 with SMTP id 22so1419149ewy.30 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:18:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.97.25 with SMTP id j25mr332714ebn.12.1265998678019; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:17:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:17:57 -0500 Message-ID: <257bbce41002121017h636d4703p57b4e666131ecd39@mail.gmail.com> From: Graham Dunn To: David Magda Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:18:17 -0000 On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 10:56 AM, David Magda wrote: > > For IPv6, does anyone know equipment that supports it? I'm pretty sure > that Apple's routers have good support for it, but what about other > manufacturers of routers (Dlink, Netgear, etc.)? > I just set up a m0n0wall box on a Soekris Engineering net4801 to work with a ipv6 tunnel through HE. Docs: http://www.tunnelbroker.net/forums/index.php?topic=415.0 Whee, dancing turtle :) From frank@crawford.emu.id.au Fri Feb 12 19:42:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1D3giiY038170 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:42:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frank@crawford.emu.id.au) Received: from ipmail06.adl6.internode.on.net (ipmail06.adl6.internode.on.net [150.101.137.145]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1D3geKL021853 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:42:43 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApwEAJeqdUs7p/2A/2dsb2JhbACDBJh+h3WnHo89AoEtgk5bBA Received: from ppp167-253-128.static.internode.on.net (HELO bits.crawford.emu.id.au) ([59.167.253.128]) by ipmail06.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 13 Feb 2010 14:07:32 +1030 Received: from [203.16.204.8] (pbc.crawford.emu.id.au [203.16.204.8]) by bits.crawford.emu.id.au (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1D3bNff019946; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 14:37:24 +1100 From: Frank Crawford To: SAGE mailing list In-Reply-To: <257bbce41002121017h636d4703p57b4e666131ecd39@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <257bbce41002121017h636d4703p57b4e666131ecd39@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 14:37:23 +1100 Message-ID: <1266032243.17393.23.camel@pbc.crawford.emu.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.2 (2.28.2-1.fc12) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (bits.crawford.emu.id.au [203.16.204.1]); Sat, 13 Feb 2010 14:37:24 +1100 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at bits.crawford.emu.id.au X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.0 (2010-01-18) on bits.crawford.emu.id.au X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=78% Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 03:42:45 -0000 On Fri, 2010-02-12 at 13:17 -0500, Graham Dunn wrote: > On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 10:56 AM, David Magda wrote: > > > > For IPv6, does anyone know equipment that supports it? I'm pretty sure > > that Apple's routers have good support for it, but what about other > > manufacturers of routers (Dlink, Netgear, etc.)? > > > > I just set up a m0n0wall box on a Soekris Engineering net4801 to work > with a ipv6 tunnel through HE. > > Docs: http://www.tunnelbroker.net/forums/index.php?topic=415.0 > > Whee, dancing turtle :) Dancing turtles are nice, but ssh'ing to all my internal systems on IPv6 addresses is more difficult. Autoconfiguration is only good if you don't want to try and connect back to a box. Don't get me wrong, it is all do-able, but the current major selling points for IPv6 are also issues for deployment in medium size organisations. Big organisations will have staff to work around it, small ones will just use autoconfig, but medium sized ones will be caught for a while. IPv6 has been well designed from a network engineering perspective, but we are now moving into the area of deployment, system management (not network management) and use, and there are lots of gaps needing to be filled in. Expect to find lots of places that need some workarounds to be put in place. Frank ______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- ac3 Suite G16, Bay 7, Locomotive Workshop Phone: 02 9209 4600 Australian Technology Park Fax: 02 9209 4611 Eveleigh NSW 1430 From dhanks@gmail.com Mon Feb 15 08:58:13 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1FGwDRv030715 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:58:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: from mail-px0-f191.google.com (mail-px0-f191.google.com [209.85.216.191]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1FGwAQU023433 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:58:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by pxi29 with SMTP id 29so1150597pxi.1 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:58:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=AGTf5LBXpcnKzdPA0VjN5B4UH9qhXMFl/LEFPZuahW0=; b=OvGRwor0zQUzWLwp/sNpZUdKyT5VwLfALL8KZcWB3wKo2Rdatb2KRHPaB1zasdqLQU XbXXaLy8+Q1scE5Eyaug/PVFCMU6ZDVfPBOETQGXq0vD5pLpyQgSrpM2UICs7KjMHhqJ aXVqG0PU/A0fcQFam4g2rVsBXYRRJLg9P8mvY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=lOU2lqYyHtZlnME0o7vN3KSblEZGr9UD07lSaMa4wihRJ3uZ3pofnTLV1wvh7P/XZT tCQYiK6U1Ef5LpRSL5eltbEYZNE0kSG9SGi3V/q9KVizU8LoAFi0w2AezSEWuPVT56d8 pQnr0uuWwedAC6XF/vGDBR9Y8X50QhlxzWH78= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.116.37 with SMTP id t37mr3585531wam.228.1266253085491; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:58:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:58:05 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1002150858u3651d27aqe300c1f2f4e229a4@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: SAGE Members X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=4% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] Chatsworth racks / cabinets for servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:58:14 -0000 Anyone have experience with Chatsworth racks and cabinets? I'm trying to get more feedback on how people rack their servers. The two choices we're looking at are the Teraframe enclosed cabinets; and the skeleton 4-post racks with Evolution cable management on each side. We're generally looking at blade servers from IBM and HP. Also have a mix of Sun M5000s and IBM p570s. Obviously the cabinets are more self-contained, less cable management, have doors, perhaps a bit more uniform. The 4-post with cable management are bare bones, less cost, no doors, minimalist looks, better cable management, would have to use blanking panels in the front. Thoughts comments? http://www.chatsworth.com/Product_Docs/TERAFRAME_SIGNATURE_BROCHURE.pdf http://www.chatsworth.com/Product_Docs/TERAFRAME_800MM_DATASHEET.pdf http://www.chatsworth.com/uploadedfiles/files/15251_DATASHEET.pdf http://www.chatsworth.com/Common/PageTemplates/PageMain.aspx?id=41384 http://www.chatsworth.com/uploadedfiles/files/35514_DATASHEET.pdf -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From prvs=466280384a=xela@mit.edu Mon Feb 15 14:00:09 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1FM09Ni039874 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:00:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from prvs=466280384a=xela@mit.edu) Received: from dmz-mailsec-scanner-4.mit.edu (DMZ-MAILSEC-SCANNER-4.MIT.EDU [18.9.25.15]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1FM05A1000006 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:00:08 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 1209190f-b7bbfae0000035e9-85-4b79c3e088e1 Received: from mailhub-auth-2.mit.edu (MAILHUB-AUTH-2.MIT.EDU [18.7.62.36]) by dmz-mailsec-scanner-4.mit.edu (Symantec Brightmail Gateway) with SMTP id 0B.C2.13801.0E3C97B4; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:00:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.103]) by mailhub-auth-2.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.9.2) with ESMTP id o1FM006B025608; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:00:00 -0500 Received: from localhost (LINERVA.MIT.EDU [18.181.0.232]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as xela@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.12.4) with ESMTP id o1FM0JV3003402; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:00:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <201002152200.o1FM0JV3003402@outgoing.mit.edu> To: Doug Hanks In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:58:05 PST." <82a71f8a1002150858u3651d27aqe300c1f2f4e229a4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:59:59 -0500 From: "Carl Alexander" X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAhLTv4MS08pf X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Chatsworth racks / cabinets for servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:00:09 -0000 > Anyone have experience with Chatsworth racks and cabinets? Yes. In general, they're about as good as you'll find > I'm trying to get more feedback on how people rack their servers. The two > choices we're looking at are the Teraframe enclosed cabinets; and the > skeleton 4-post racks with Evolution cable management on each side. > > We're generally looking at blade servers from IBM and HP. Also have a mix > of Sun M5000s and IBM p570s. > > Obviously the cabinets are more self-contained, less cable management, have > doors, perhaps a bit more uniform. Cabinets generally have less _room_ for cable management, but not less _need_. If anything, they need _more_: it's just way too easy for the back of a cabinet to turn into a rats' nest. In a server room (or datacenter cage) where I control who has access, the only reason I would consider using cabinets would be if I had a severe enough heat dissipation issue that I wanted to force air through the cabinets, bottom to top. (Which, given that you're talking about blade servers, that may in fact be an issue for you.) Otherwise, I would always go for open racks, and space them far enough apart to use rack-side cable management. > The 4-post with cable management are bare bones, less cost, no doors, > minimalist looks, better cable management, would have to use blanking panels > in the front. I've used the fixed-rail version of the "Adjustable Rail ServerRack:" the "QuadraRack Server Frame" (www.chatsworth.com/Product_Docs/15053_DATASHEET.pdf) and would happily use them again. I suppose the adjustable rail version may have some advantages, especially if you're going to be filling racks with identical machines. But I've rarely had a real problem mounting a machine in the fixed-rail version --- and none of those problems would have been solved by adjustable rails. (For the sake of completeness, those problems were: (1) Machines without rail kits (i.e. some machines left over from the 90s that mounted by wings attached to the front of the chassis, with no rear support.) (2) Commodity machines with brand-X rail kits that needed to be attached to the rack from the _inside_ (i.e. we had to mount the cage nuts with their flanges facing _into_ the rack --- having a wiry young contortionist of a junior sysadmin to screw the rail kit in place was also useful.)) (As an aside (since the pdfs you pointed to discuss both types), I'll suggest you avoid racks with pre-tapped holes and stick with square holes and cage nuts. Yes, they're a pain --- but racks with pre-tapped holes turn out to be even more pain, not least because computer manufacturers have a broader range of interpretations of "19 inches" than you would imagine. The fraction of an inch slop in cage nuts can be the difference between being able to mount a machine or not. Also, cage nuts can be made a lot less annoying with a tool such as http://store.cablesplususa.com/cagenuttool.html.) (And another aside --- why would you "have to" use blanking panels?) In an open rack, you don't need to maintain enclosure for the sake of air flow. And as far as seeking neatness in the machine room, there are plenty of other things you can do that have practical as well as aesthetic valye, from staying on top of cable routing to keeping the floor clean.) Welcome to the wonderful world of machine-room planning. Have fun! ---Alex From sage-list-psa@otoh.org Mon Feb 15 14:57:36 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1FMva4k041188 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:57:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sage-list-psa@otoh.org) Received: from pmon001.zetta.net (ssg-corp.zetta.net [74.114.124.9]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1FMvXJK000927 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:57:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from bilby.zetta.net (bilby.zetta.net [10.10.1.16]) by pmon001.zetta.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6015720001C90; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:48:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: by bilby.zetta.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EA89CC4D0DFA3; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:47:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:47:26 -0800 From: Paul Armstrong To: Carl Alexander Message-ID: <20100215224726.GA5882@otoh.org> References: <82a71f8a1002150858u3651d27aqe300c1f2f4e229a4@mail.gmail.com> <201002152200.o1FM0JV3003402@outgoing.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201002152200.o1FM0JV3003402@outgoing.mit.edu> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Chatsworth racks / cabinets for servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:57:37 -0000 At 2010-02-15T16:59-0500, Carl Alexander wrote: > (As an aside (since the pdfs you pointed to discuss both types), I'll > suggest you avoid racks with pre-tapped holes and stick with square > holes and cage nuts. And, if you strip a cage nut, you throw it out. If you strip a pre-tapped hole you have to re-tap it larger, lose the ability to screw machines in correctly or not plug anything into that hole. Also, make sure you get M6 nuts and bolts. Just go order a pile of them and have someone check regularly (weekly) to see if you need re-ordering. There's nothing more annoying than having mixed measurement systems in your server room because someone went and got whatever was available when they ran out and having a single standard for all server rooms around the world is more fun than having multiple standards. Paul From meenoo@gmail.com Mon Feb 15 15:28:12 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1FNSCM7042979 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:28:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from meenoo@gmail.com) Received: from ey-out-1920.google.com (ey-out-1920.google.com [74.125.78.148]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1FNS8iC001344 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by ey-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 4so1186424eyg.36 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:28:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=A4/cZcCIZiYqQbjIoASb8unKMiyzMz/0nwZ5tvNVJJQ=; b=EgMhTmXi41kvbYKBhHD5/ThtKHIwcqfObmNpcSn1c+4BGRfTxIcwDdH0QMoPMCMLTy D4w7qFA/udDjrPNNAG1SFlg7OyU72G1xsRVH+32B4Nsnyh19OAIsVaj/NrhjyEcfeEnn dbqNo1KvBSEg2eUfQvHEo0AGClsFdiYv9Fw3A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=AeMUSvhFXz6kAcHC7HFXKzBLM4NWlUGOZDgOcwVjaz8jY4xW9Pu7Mld7NIjALvr6l8 NHLcZJGvB42p9qGDFKtjN2prSTXkyhvWg2sqCymUnh321o2SziVYrkK7X1ZVYMj84b7R 4lCzsZjKGOkYwhyGZE5ONiiPqiAwVT9YsOd74= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.1.209 with SMTP id 17mr3375885ebg.70.1266276487607; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:28:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1002150858u3651d27aqe300c1f2f4e229a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <82a71f8a1002150858u3651d27aqe300c1f2f4e229a4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:28:07 -0500 Message-ID: From: Meenoo Shivdasani To: Doug Hanks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1FNSCM7042979 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Chatsworth racks / cabinets for servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 23:28:12 -0000 On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Doug Hanks wrote: > I'm trying to get more feedback on how people rack their servers.  The two > choices we're looking at are the Teraframe enclosed cabinets; and the > skeleton 4-post racks with Evolution cable management on each side. Chatsworth makes nice stuff. One consideration is whether or not you will ever need to secure the servers physically -- if so, then cabinets are the answer. It also makes it less likely that someone will push a button or pull out a cable accidentally. That said, you get much better cable management options with the 4-post open racks and since everything is on display there's (theoretically) more of an impetus to keep things neat and un-rats-nest-like. M From philiph@pobox.com Mon Feb 15 16:52:35 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1G0qY8a044902 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:52:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from philiph@pobox.com) Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1G0qVEr002986 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:52:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.internal [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F24CE0E75; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:52:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from web7.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.216]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:52:31 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=message-id:from:to:cc:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:references:subject:in-reply-to:date; s=smtpout; bh=TfeqA/ki4s8jVre0AhxmNMi7Ffw=; b=a80O8BYdq4r1tb/oqLkkInTjqCHZM+VndQ8dOx1ZuU3uzQ7j2Ka+ue8SIyo/JcTW+vnY6pNFLp2LByHyN5ehW4OdpNu6R3FYDg6PKtAt46I/hmkI6UQDK3Ts6lSsHybeQjf/k70gSPG5To+W7XlozLHCZO+Pnaid0m6PU6IvHsU= Received: by web7.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 3EE7071DFA; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:52:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1266281551.16736.1360156049@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: gapqKQSY0swpJga4ErWDCov2Z3geNmuOCC9OMiMA0MkA 1266281551 From: "Philip J. Hollenback" To: "Meenoo Shivdasani" , "Doug Hanks" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface References: <82a71f8a1002150858u3651d27aqe300c1f2f4e229a4@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:52:31 -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1G0qY8a044902 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Chatsworth racks / cabinets for servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 00:52:35 -0000 On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:28 -0500, "Meenoo Shivdasani" wrote: > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Doug Hanks wrote: > > > I'm trying to get more feedback on how people rack their servers.  The two > > choices we're looking at are the Teraframe enclosed cabinets; and the > > skeleton 4-post racks with Evolution cable management on each side. > > Chatsworth makes nice stuff. One consideration is whether or not you > will ever need to secure the servers physically -- if so, then > cabinets are the answer. It also makes it less likely that someone > will push a button or pull out a cable accidentally. That said, you > get much better cable management options with the 4-post open racks > and since everything is on display there's (theoretically) more of an > impetus to keep things neat and un-rats-nest-like. That's a good point. I've had good luck ordering and using for example APC VX racks, but without any sides or doors. That gives you some of the security of a cabinet and some of the openness of just racks. However I generally think you should secure the entire room if possible and leave the racks wide open so you can do good cable management. Obviously that isn't always possible. -- Philip J. Hollenback philiph@pobox.com www.hollenback.net From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Tue Feb 16 07:01:38 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GF1bHE065067 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:01:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1GF1Yst029255 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:01:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1GF1dIO007812; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:01:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:01:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <49404.207.61.230.154.1266332499.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1002150858u3651d27aqe300c1f2f4e229a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <82a71f8a1002150858u3651d27aqe300c1f2f4e229a4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:01:39 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Doug Hanks" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Chatsworth racks / cabinets for servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:01:38 -0000 On Mon, February 15, 2010 11:58, Doug Hanks wrote: > Anyone have experience with Chatsworth racks and cabinets? Is there a defined "nomenclature difference"? From Chatsworth's web site, it seems that racks are simple, mostly open-air, frames with four (or two) posts, with minimal extraneous material. Cabinets on the other hand can have sides panels and doors attached (though optional). Is this this correct? (I've never really considered the distinction personally.) > I'm trying to get more feedback on how people rack their servers. The two > choices we're looking at are the Teraframe enclosed cabinets; and the > skeleton 4-post racks with Evolution cable management on each side. $WORK has standardized on APC NetShelter SX racks, generally with dual APC PDUs as well (AP7864). The racks are basic and get the job done. The PDUs are metered and have Ethernet connections for monitoring and remote power cycling--there are more basic versions available as well. > We're generally looking at blade servers from IBM and HP. Also have a mix > of Sun M5000s and IBM p570s. Some of that hardware can put out a lot of heat. You may want to go with the cabinets, as they provide better isolation between the cold and hot aisles. If you're /really/ going to put out a lot of heat (>15 kW/rack), you may want to look at "passive" cooling: http://www.chatsworth.com/passivecooling http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/x/hardware/options/cooling.html http://www.sun.com/servers/cooling IBM's and Sun's products are basically giant heat sinks / radiators that plug into pre-existing piping (water or refrigerant) to transfer the heat away. This way heat is absorbed at the source, and you don't have 100F (35C) hot aisles, and don't have wind tunnels to try to move the air fast enough. Helps with the PUE as well. This appears to be where a lot of HPC installations are headed. > Obviously the cabinets are more self-contained, less cable management, > have doors, perhaps a bit more uniform. One thing to possibly consider for cable management is whether you're going to have in-rack switches or if you're going to have a patch panel in the rack. It may affect how you do cabling. Cabinets also help to keep you "honest", as if you have side panels, you're less tempted to string cable through racks. From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Tue Feb 16 07:07:02 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GF72Ha065287 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:07:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1GF6xAR029382 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:07:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1GF6nFd008203; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:06:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:06:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <50177.207.61.230.154.1266332809.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <201002152200.o1FM0JV3003402@outgoing.mit.edu> References: <201002152200.o1FM0JV3003402@outgoing.mit.edu> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:06:49 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Carl Alexander" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Chatsworth racks / cabinets for servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:07:02 -0000 On Mon, February 15, 2010 16:59, Carl Alexander wrote: > Cabinets generally have less _room_ for cable management, but not > less _need_. If anything, they need _more_: it's just way too > easy for the back of a cabinet to turn into a rats' nest. In a > server room (or datacenter cage) where I control who has access, > the only reason I would consider using cabinets would be if I had > a severe enough heat dissipation issue that I wanted to force air > through the cabinets, bottom to top. (Which, given that you're > talking about blade servers, that may in fact be an issue for you.) > > Otherwise, I would always go for open racks, and space them far > enough apart to use rack-side cable management. If you have a lot of gaps between racks and machines, do you have find you have any issues with mixing of air between the cold aisle and the hot aisle? With cabinets, I would think you would have a better "seal" between them (especially with side panels), and so the only practical place the air has to go is through them (as well as any leakage over the top). From allan@physics.umn.edu Tue Feb 16 07:24:57 2010 Received: from florence.spa.umn.edu (florence.spa.umn.edu [128.101.220.38]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GFOvgs066803 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:24:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allan@physics.umn.edu) Received: from c-75-72-245-201.hsd1.mn.comcast.net ([75.72.245.201] helo=[192.168.0.192]) by florence.spa.umn.edu with esmtpsa (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhPIB-000Bg3-Dg for sage-members@mailman.sage.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:24:51 -0600 Message-ID: <4B7AB8C3.1080608@physics.umn.edu> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:24:51 -0600 From: Graham Allan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <82a71f8a1002150858u3651d27aqe300c1f2f4e229a4@mail.gmail.com> <49404.207.61.230.154.1266332499.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <49404.207.61.230.154.1266332499.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] Chatsworth racks / cabinets for servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:24:57 -0000 On 2/16/2010 9:01 AM, David Magda wrote: > > $WORK has standardized on APC NetShelter SX racks, generally with > dual APC PDUs as well (AP7864). The racks are basic and get the job > done. The PDUs are metered and have Ethernet connections for > monitoring and remote power cycling--there are more basic versions > available as well. There are also "wide" versions of those cabinets available, which can be useful. I've started using these where there's more than a basic amount of cabling involved (eg fiber san connections etc), and using the regular width cabinets for basic compute nodes. > IBM's and Sun's products are basically giant heat sinks / radiators > that plug into pre-existing piping (water or refrigerant) to transfer > the heat away. This way heat is absorbed at the source, and you don't > have 100F (35C) hot aisles, and don't have wind tunnels to try to > move the air fast enough. Helps with the PUE as well. This appears to > be where a lot of HPC installations are headed. Maybe I'm getting off-topic, but it's also worth looking at the APC InRow cooling, in this space. I never seriously priced the IBM or other chiller doors, but I believe the APC solution is a lot less expensive, and also decouples you from having to replace all your cabinets. It worked very well for us to replace a dysfunctional DX a/c system with a bunch of chilled water APC InRow units. Graham From dquinn@gmail.com Tue Feb 16 10:50:02 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GIo2Zh072279 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:50:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dquinn@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw0-f173.google.com (mail-yw0-f173.google.com [209.85.211.173]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1GInww2006254 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:50:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by ywh3 with SMTP id 3so5283032ywh.22 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:49:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:reply-to:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Yl+7Vp0YPREOWD22+uFN+2kfB+oYhqCUxGKBFlDrS44=; b=GZt1p8cdvrmQ/aEqyiIjMgWxRyax2f6jX0lxJUYtjVQie1kEC8G8qQOwkIs5CGbL7E UkjLkVH+EvyDdmTmEFYVcRgZ66THkJn9bmVPpOpjeUYyCmRSDaCWjFBpNxLV1mD/KfBy am7YGPam6IT9GYFNEzSdSH51a4ONsOCK/VYHs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:reply-to:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=V9Ycv1Yn917T9S06a1mqSQ5E7ZTT441UUeEbNNHwl8XmjY8bbXXzKA7NSLIflQ3S3N Q8in17s+6KATiDe8iORVRN8Df+zdwIpz1S/B8x2bF6SqZ72o1DhLUwqeWcHfUOIPWo3f F+m+bxvvvLuWy/NQM4IT7WH76nKnFMyt8/Ut4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.90.47.6 with SMTP id u6mr3275209agu.22.1266346193103; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:49:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:49:53 -0800 Message-ID: From: Dana Quinn To: SAGE list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Subject: [SAGE] "measure twice, cut once" pattern with command line actions - references? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: danaq@pobox.com List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 18:50:02 -0000 I remember a discussion in a book - I believe "The Practice of System and Network Administration" (which i think of as "The Bible")... around usage patterns to avoid making silly (or disastrous) mistakes at the command line. This is especially needed when deleting files, when one bad mistaken pattern patch can really ruin your day. I briefly scanned my copy of the previous version of TPoSaNA, but couldn't find the discussion on effective usage patterns. I'd like to come up with a couple references to share with my team. Let's just say it's a timely topic right now for us. Does anyone remember where this discussion is easily? I thought it was introduced with the idea of "measure twice, cut once", but couldn't find that in the index. Also - I'd welcome pointers to any other material on this topic... it would be good to look at other material on this. Dana -- Dana Quinn danaq@pobox.com From vaserv@gmail.com Tue Feb 16 11:06:27 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GJ6Q8H072909 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:06:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vaserv@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bw0-f225.google.com (mail-bw0-f225.google.com [209.85.218.225]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1GJ6Lml011512 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:06:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz25 with SMTP id 25so431589bwz.18 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:06:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=7/6iTwfdpCTDvbKvKl+IeYAq+8yiAAACyGuOLmk4BpM=; b=ww45TT0pIUO45qq+eVwIVvNyICQ6gwyQuJeuCkQUjSvw9L8t9VOT+hXSkHexpkXMRj s/56H0Pp7wxEK57rkHLTRT+0y5owX8M3mFjwGUWmBEMyJjOWOsRjJCYKgklTdb4prwWE B2qTVIEAAiaNr9/nIp2DxW0+ZKUJxbHGCAdvA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; b=a+t3gmj54vqAcosNXW6c/M8umnB8Tdai/BG9DPQoUiH+UuFuoioHCJVyZlPhrwdWNr MJhaA2BXLNowhoWi44JGNqcVtCrrj6QJPm4w6/1W0cBICAwTaFJfXM8BXX+Z697Iy2SR zUEE/0j1QK0IGbEV1ne59JrmUsr6IE7lVgc2M= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: vaserv@gmail.com Received: by 10.103.78.36 with SMTP id f36mr5177883mul.74.1266346831823; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:00:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:00:31 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: b7677c4f8651581a Message-ID: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> From: Rus Foster To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=3% Subject: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:06:27 -0000 To current a long story short I've been in a bit of a technical rut for the last few years with work related things so now I want to do a crash course in things I've missed. Digging around I've come across the following programs that looks like it would be worth putting some time into to learn Puppet Ext4 Xen/KVM Is there anything else it would be worth me experimenting with to get myself back up to speed / other fun edgy things? cheers Rus -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/rusfoster From tal@whatexit.org Tue Feb 16 11:11:04 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GJB4h2073024 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:11:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com (mail-vw0-f41.google.com [209.85.212.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1GJB0jW013465 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:11:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws20 with SMTP id 20so349931vws.28 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:10:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.124.5 with SMTP id s5mr1118699vcr.217.1266347455317; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:10:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:10:55 -0500 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: Rus Foster Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=3% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:11:04 -0000 On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 2:00 PM, Rus Foster wrote: > To current a long story short I've been in a bit of a technical rut > for the last few years with work related things so now I want to do a > crash course in things I've missed. Digging around I've come across > the following programs that looks like it would be worth putting some > time into to learn > > Puppet > Ext4 > Xen/KVM If you are playing with Xen or KVM, let me plug http://code.google.com/p/ganeti as a framework for managing clusters easier. If you are going large, scalable web services, I would add memcache, CouchDB, and MongoDB to your list. Tom From sage-list-psa@otoh.org Tue Feb 16 11:31:29 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GJVTMC073716 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:31:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sage-list-psa@otoh.org) Received: from pmon001.zetta.net (ssg-corp.zetta.net [74.114.124.9]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1GJVQNm018976 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:31:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from bilby.zetta.net (bilby.zetta.net [10.10.1.16]) by pmon001.zetta.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C958720001BEE; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:31:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: by bilby.zetta.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0CB58C4473C6D; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:30:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:30:38 -0800 From: Paul Armstrong To: Rus Foster Message-ID: <20100216193038.GJ391@otoh.org> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:31:30 -0000 At 2010-02-16T19:00+0000, Rus Foster wrote: > To current a long story short I've been in a bit of a technical rut > for the last few years with work related things so now I want to do a > crash course in things I've missed. Digging around I've come across > the following programs that looks like it would be worth putting some > time into to learn > > Puppet > Ext4 > Xen/KVM ReviewBoard. Code reviews are a significant process improvement to bring to your team. Solaris 10 or OpenSolaris and the following features specifically: * ZFS * Dtrace * Zones * Crossbow (OpenSolaris only) OpenSolaris and Linux both have load balancers built into them now. OpenSolaris's one is easier to use but still fairly new and lacking a few features. Amazon web services may be worth learning depending on what your company does and what you're interested in getting into. If you've not played a lot with LDAP you should. I recommend (in my order of preference, others will disagree): OpenDS, Sun Directory Server and OpenLDAP. If you're interested in playing with Windows at all (or integrating with it), you _need_ to learn Active Directory properly. The hot languages at the moment are Ruby and Python if you haven't learned a language recently. Paul From kurt.buff@gmail.com Tue Feb 16 12:27:10 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GKRADv075373 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:27:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.148]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1GKR7G3020741 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:27:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so948548qwf.22 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:27:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=+wyhJoxeHeGBlIbALUIvStQMnihd5z6Mxhb3Wg7IE70=; b=xYpPBnPPa6ty1i1MFnmBEIwDWJ6ed2kSIBdnj7E9dHOhP9wlpLBRGPUh6FbkKLOZCd aLur2aIsv2zfjYsCxLgvqLVGhnEsqhiPUO0qRkEgOJ1AJjlz6BLtm5TI4G3AaXT3FJoi yIQvwRBfj+PwdDe+dR2yBec2Dw6Ab0dAb1jpo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=s4Srrz+eOFflXNOxgDt5+yHD8Y7oRNGlMSbPXb41NEGileRH4ju2b8uefM0y9hCOfm y1e2FhYnMp1uNSwJFzSCfS4wC81iOdgk0zdqvIkjwNBoOlsE1/s+nW+AyESdZSCcLP5N o9UBkYy6QLoio84i7Paozl6xXRLNvI+ZHQ4c0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.106.210 with SMTP id y18mr1142258qao.54.1266352027083; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:27:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:27:06 -0800 Message-ID: From: Kurt Buff To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:27:11 -0000 On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 11:00, Rus Foster wrote: > To current a long story short I've been in a bit of a technical rut > for the last few years with work related things so now I want to do a > crash course in things I've missed. Digging around I've come across > the following programs that looks like it would be worth putting some > time into to learn > > Puppet > Ext4 > Xen/KVM > > Is there anything else it would be worth me experimenting with to get > myself back up to speed / other fun edgy things? > > cheers > > Rus IPv6? Heh. Kurt From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Tue Feb 16 12:33:37 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GKXbnp075581 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:33:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1GKXXn4020911 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:33:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1GKXdpK006412; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:33:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:33:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:33:39 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Rus Foster" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:33:37 -0000 On Tue, February 16, 2010 14:10, Tom Limoncelli wrote: >> Puppet >> Ext4 >> Xen/KVM > > If you are playing with Xen or KVM, let me plug > http://code.google.com/p/ganeti as a framework for managing clusters > easier. For more virtualization, VMware has really gone mainstream with most data centers having major deployments (you can download it for free I think). There's also Microsoft's take on it, Hyper-V. Sun/Oracle have an open-sourced product called VirtualBox that runs on workstations. If you're running on OS X, you have two more workstation products as well: VMware Fusion and Parallels. I believe someone else mentioned Solaris 10 zones (like FreeBSD jails on steroids), and they have LDoms on their SPARC hardware. > If you are going large, scalable web services, I would add memcache, > CouchDB, and MongoDB to your list. Most start-up-like web sites also use MySQL a lot; Postgres (BSD-license) is often mentioned as well. Can the OP perhaps give a rough time line on when he (?) last really paid attention to this stuff? You may also want to go through the LISA conference archives to get an idea of major topics. Going forward, following Slashdot and Ars Technica would probably cover most of the important tech news that occurs. There are of course many sites, but I find these two have decent S:N and filter out a lot of the "gee whiz!" stuff about gadgets and such (though they hit the major things from Apple, Microsoft, etc.). I find using a new aggregator (e.g., NetNewsWire on OSX, Gmail Reader) to follow sites' RSS/Atom feeds very efficient. From tkw@southwestern.edu Tue Feb 16 13:23:38 2010 Received: from hephaestus.southwestern.edu (hephaestus.southwestern.edu [161.13.1.120]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GLNc9r077188 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 13:23:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tkw@southwestern.edu) X-Ironport-SBRS: None X-Ironport-Group-Policy: None-$ACCEPTED_SMTPAUTH X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,486,1262584800"; d="scan'208";a="266285349" Received: from trinity.southwestern.edu (HELO [161.13.2.22]) ([161.13.2.22]) by hephaestus.southwestern.edu with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 16 Feb 2010 15:23:34 -0600 Message-ID: <4B7B0CD5.70604@southwestern.edu> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:23:33 -0600 From: "Todd K. Watson" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] Chatsworth racks / cabinets for servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 21:23:39 -0000 I actually have 5 Chatsworth cabinets that are shipping from NC today. We're about to move into a new data center and the Chatsworth Passive Cooling cabinets are what we're using. I have an N-series TeraFrame that will house a Catalyst 6509. It's designed specifically for Cisco's side to side ventilation. The remaining cabinets are F-series TeraFrame for our server farm. Our architect changed our cooling design and we believe we are going to get better cooling performance with higher performance and lower energy utilization from our CRAC's dedicated to the space. The building will hopefully attain LEED Gold or better certification, and they're hoping the use of these cabinets will help earn points. In addition to Chatsworth being highly recommended by our hardware vendor, we're fortunate that their office with their brand new showroom and testing facility is just across town in Georgetown, TX where we're located. They built this facility so they can bring in clients and demonstrate their entire product line and also do specific design testing for various data center circumstances and products. If you are considering a very large-scale purchase and it's in your budget, I'd recommend setting up a visit. -- Todd K. Watson Associate Director, Systems and Networks Southwestern University, Georgetown, TX From tal@whatexit.org Tue Feb 16 20:06:52 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1H46p9V088428 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:06:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com (mail-vw0-f41.google.com [209.85.212.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1H46mva029653 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:06:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws20 with SMTP id 20so486043vws.28 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:06:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.123.105 with SMTP id o41mr4465297vcr.70.1266379603101; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:06:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:06:43 -0500 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91002162006h2996eacfm58aed15e2e1e40c9@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: danaq@pobox.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=3% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1H46p9V088428 Cc: SAGE list Subject: Re: [SAGE] "measure twice, cut once" pattern with command line actions - references? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:06:52 -0000 On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Dana Quinn wrote: > I remember a discussion in a book - I believe "The Practice of System > and Network Administration" (which i think of as "The Bible")... > around usage patterns to avoid making silly (or disastrous) mistakes > at the command line.  This is especially needed when deleting files, > when one bad mistaken pattern patch can really ruin your day. > > I briefly scanned my copy of the previous version of TPoSaNA, but > couldn't find the discussion on effective usage patterns.  I'd like to > come up with a couple references to share with my team.   Let's just > say it's a timely topic right now for us.  Does anyone remember where > this discussion is easily?  I thought it was introduced with the idea > of "measure twice, cut once", but couldn't find that in the index. > > Also - I'd welcome pointers to any other material on this topic... it > would be good to look at other material on this. > > Dana > > -- > Dana Quinn > danaq@pobox.com Dana, Thanks for the compliments about TPoSaNA! I think you are referring to "Learning from Carpenters": 1st edition: page 96: Section 5.1.3 2nd edition: page 210: Section 16.1.3 Related things that come to mind: (1) Put "echo" in front of the command line to test it. First type: echo rm foo* If that outputs the files you expect, then press cursor-UP, remove the "echo", and press RETURN. Don't re-type the line. Use command line editing to repeat the same line without the "echo". (2) Build up command lines one part at a time. Don't type a long Bash one-liner all at once. Keep adding to the line, testing it along the way. Here's a post of mine where I built up a very long command line: http://lopsanj.org/pipermail/lopsanj/2008-August/001881.html And an example of doing that in Time Management for System Administrators: http://books.google.com/books?id=ENIZL_MffqsC&lpg=PA179&ots=9m2JxUTldu&dq=limoncelli%20virus%20in%20shell&pg=PA178#v=onepage&q=&f=false (3) Write the test before you do the solution. Suppose you have a bunch of machines that all need their BIOS upgraded. Add to your monitoring system to test if the BIOS is at the new version. Now start upgrading all the BIOSs until the alert is no longer "red" or alerting. If you send a machine for repairs and it comes back with an old BIOS (happens all the time to me!) then you will start to get alerts. (4) Document what you dislike doing. People are bad at the things they dislike doing, or get bored doing. Turn them into checklists so that you can do them in your sleep. (TPOSANA, 2nd edition, page 246; similar point made in TM4SA's documentation chapter) Checklists are my current big favorite thing to talk about. The book "The Checklist Manifesto" (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0805091742/tomontime-20) should be required reading for people that are trying to improve the operational aspects of an organization. Hope that helps, Tom -- Computer and network administrators... Spread the word! LOPSA New Jersey Professional IT Community Conference New Brunswick, NJ, May 7-8, 2010 -- http://picconf.org From rac@cisco.com Tue Feb 16 22:46:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1H6k8e0092596 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:46:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rac@cisco.com) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1H6k5Tv002393 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:46:07 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAP8ee0urR7H+/2dsb2JhbACbAHSlX5gDhFsEgxQa X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,489,1262563200"; d="scan'208,217";a="484151365" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Feb 2010 06:45:59 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1H6jxTn018782; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 06:45:59 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-239.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.105]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:45:59 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:45:58 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] "measure twice, cut once" pattern with command line actions - references? Thread-Index: AcqviC8fO28kdoJfQcysQ3nSxWxE9gAFK2st From: "Richard Chycoski (rac)" To: "Tom Limoncelli" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Feb 2010 06:45:59.0411 (UTC) FILETIME=[DD2F6430:01CAAF9C] X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE list Subject: Re: [SAGE] "measure twice, cut once" pattern with command line actions - references? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 06:46:08 -0000 One of my favourite techniques when using 'for' loops is to put only = 'echo' outputs in the for loop first, then up-cursor and edit the loop = to become 'live'. I've saved myself many painful recovery sessions with = this... Of course, you have to be in a modern shell (like bash) to be able to do = this. On older machines you do the same thing by putting the commands in = a file, executing the script, then editing to remove the 'echo' = commands. For more complex loops this is still my preference, it's = easier to read a (properly indented) script, and nice editors like vim = can help pinpoint your script's inadequacies in 'living colour' - you = *do* turn on syntax chaecking, don't you :-) The latter point is - let the computer do as much of the checking as = possible. It will always attempt to do exactly what you told it, and can = usually be relied upon to produce the GO part of GIGO if you prompt it = to! When you're tired, distracted, under pressure or other issues, this is = the time to make sure to tke the time to test before execution, and is = the advice most often ignored. The was an extremely seasoned radiotelegraph operator who was capable of = comfortably sending and receiving Morse Code at around 60 words per = minute. (Being capable of 25 WPM is considered to be 'good' to ' = proficiency for professional operators.) When asked what it was like = sending emegency messages at that speed he replied that he simply didn't = do that - he sent emergency traffic at 20-25 WPM - to ensure that most = any proficient operator could copy the message the first time, and that = interference would have less impact, and that he would be more likely to = send the message without corrections. Ratther than: Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe... Code with care before hitting return!!! - Richard -----Original Message----- From: Tom Limoncelli [mailto:tal@whatexit.org] Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 08:17 PM Pacific Standard Time To: danaq@pobox.com Cc: SAGE list Subject: Re: [SAGE] "measure twice,cut once" pattern with command line = actions - references? On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Dana Quinn wrote: > I remember a discussion in a book - I believe "The Practice of System > and Network Administration" (which i think of as "The Bible")... > around usage patterns to avoid making silly (or disastrous) mistakes > at the command line. =A0This is especially needed when deleting files, > when one bad mistaken pattern patch can really ruin your day. > > I briefly scanned my copy of the previous version of TPoSaNA, but > couldn't find the discussion on effective usage patterns. =A0I'd like = to > come up with a couple references to share with my team. =A0 Let's just > say it's a timely topic right now for us. =A0Does anyone remember = where > this discussion is easily? =A0I thought it was introduced with the = idea > of "measure twice, cut once", but couldn't find that in the index. > > Also - I'd welcome pointers to any other material on this topic... it > would be good to look at other material on this. > > Dana > > -- > Dana Quinn > danaq@pobox.com Dana, Thanks for the compliments about TPoSaNA! I think you are referring to "Learning from Carpenters": 1st edition: page 96: Section 5.1.3 2nd edition: page 210: Section 16.1.3 Related things that come to mind: (1) Put "echo" in front of the command line to test it. First type: echo rm foo* If that outputs the files you expect, then press cursor-UP, remove the "echo", and press RETURN. Don't re-type the line. Use command line editing to repeat the same line without the "echo". (2) Build up command lines one part at a time. Don't type a long Bash one-liner all at once. Keep adding to the line, testing it along the way. Here's a post of mine where I built up a very long command line: http://lopsanj.org/pipermail/lopsanj/2008-August/001881.html And an example of doing that in Time Management for System = Administrators: http://books.google.com/books?id=3DENIZL_MffqsC&lpg=3DPA179&ots=3D9m2JxUT= ldu&dq=3Dlimoncelli%20virus%20in%20shell&pg=3DPA178#v=3Donepage&q=3D&f=3D= false (3) Write the test before you do the solution. Suppose you have a bunch of machines that all need their BIOS upgraded. Add to your monitoring system to test if the BIOS is at the new version. Now start upgrading all the BIOSs until the alert is no longer "red" or alerting. If you send a machine for repairs and it comes back with an old BIOS (happens all the time to me!) then you will start to get alerts. (4) Document what you dislike doing. People are bad at the things they dislike doing, or get bored doing. Turn them into checklists so that you can do them in your sleep. (TPOSANA, 2nd edition, page 246; similar point made in TM4SA's documentation chapter) Checklists are my current big favorite thing to talk about. The book "The Checklist Manifesto" (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0805091742/tomontime-20) should be required reading for people that are trying to improve the operational aspects of an organization. Hope that helps, Tom --=20 Computer and network administrators... Spread the word! LOPSA New Jersey Professional IT Community Conference New Brunswick, NJ, May 7-8, 2010 -- http://picconf.org _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From vaserv@gmail.com Tue Feb 16 23:36:34 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1H7aY7Y093765 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:36:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vaserv@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f211.google.com (mail-fx0-f211.google.com [209.85.220.211]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1H7aULU003199 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:36:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm3 with SMTP id 3so6796770fxm.19 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:36:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=pKFklDjr24PySO9dkDoto2v2DvfvXRHIHfrKmYABYcU=; b=ZdvJKet84S1PGMjLinzFblZpVFhrRCkAwkhFY0erWSSkrbHxc5Vr60Hr2AfZlIYSH+ /JcvrrvskNiZU8whVG43iT5T+uj5KuHkqJdzSEyRQ1nksPFrJ/Sl1ZuN0+h/BaVu5Xr3 9K9JUjuSJ2x7rjhpWLd9aXCwDkVFNjW4w20v8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=e1F0vwY8QkQECS1yFNwNGb3Nec572sQjpglAupKb+ZqvPop3VdXUHV5ug+rOWrnltA GMyt9jy32e0T/WxYf0ZHwr3Oty7DdJRi2Og1syr1YS3XcBSWwwPurGECat1tov0xrBGM JTpy4th46LpNB6Oadp6drRaQOr9JZLEgCit7Q= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: vaserv@gmail.com Received: by 10.103.84.19 with SMTP id m19mr5512020mul.66.1266392185058; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:36:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:36:25 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: e127df346e68ad6e Message-ID: <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> From: Rus Foster To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:36:35 -0000 > > Can the OP perhaps give a rough time line on when he (?) last really paid > attention to this stuff? > I really sat down technically at the start of 2008 so it about 2 years. But beyond that its just been jumping in and out. I've now got a few months where I can concetrate to get myself back up to speed -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/rusfoster From joel.merrick@gmail.com Wed Feb 17 04:30:59 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HCUwSv000390 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:30:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joel.merrick@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f211.google.com (mail-fx0-f211.google.com [209.85.220.211]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HCUt9r019137 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:30:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm3 with SMTP id 3so7056737fxm.19 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:30:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=mrBhtXX7dJITIryaCy3xGMj9lRvcnW5PMFwEz3UJqKw=; b=xFb/+K6E62/f88gvC7sU9HHzXZw3r9mQUgCtf8m29fBdBJxiPypR82iFtHNUhYcjtl eK41cNTHeaBmgtEBhOMfK7GQi7L/XU/ErwdFyJv4HaoiRxVPqILiDaXBIgcLH69W+qNJ OroAMhYo+a+xYpmDOmDOOQffhPlfduWBjZcnE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=E1DWp8XvMWZcNceV0US1WErIIZqaPpxwN+sUhB7C/9bUMlzPWndCN5A3KcqudZWwEz X7xXFAS3CYPiuU/yz/t0fueVyzxzk4H1TdQD06+VSyNg+47pxl42k0Hiojt4CLbRrO37 XdqOpxM0u5BW6juWtIEf0mRls434BjLsrugNo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.185.77 with SMTP id b13mr829159hbh.158.1266409849329; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:30:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:30:49 +0000 Message-ID: <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> From: Joel Merrick To: Rus Foster X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:30:59 -0000 Definitely echo IPv6! It's quite scary to think of the work needed for deployment for even a fairly small company. I work for an ISP and we're in the analysis stages. It's akin to pandora's box.. once you scratch the surface you find all sorts of incompatibility issues and need for testing. The sooner you make stab at IPv6, the better. Ganeti with KVM for virtualization, Chef (or Puppet). OpenECP looks like a new interesting project (an OS fork of Enomaly) Also stuff like behavior driven testing (cucumber, cucumber-nagios etc..) Joel -- $ echo "kpfmAdpoofdufevq/dp/vl" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1)-1)/ge' From timetrap@gmail.com Wed Feb 17 04:32:25 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HCWPnh000441 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:32:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f178.google.com (mail-pz0-f178.google.com [209.85.222.178]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HCWMl9019194 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:32:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by pzk8 with SMTP id 8so6414772pzk.22 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:32:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WzrLspkTzAsEBc0p/OsJCvNTDpm9T3l0lryPncutxYo=; b=tuhrIqATO3d5jkm1MmIDkH8dxsD7dbh8MT3lJTrxMPwFqm4HFygDEtS15FCOz4LSfQ HZou4lbWDmGa+1wzC+L4KpVkofz2HENPwc3BCzKcnwRGUnMrkHTIDIJER6gtPiBP/Xfa kcpEbex3iYm7SByf7wnC0MCsXlYYYr8n26PJQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=kxA9Uaus2p8XZ5/doYoejAMGnm9HzdKHUDvhoEboW8nKJd6BOawIfS28eamucNd9yL YMAAo5G3atc5estOtDo108DA7GhSvd2rwgk2z3BiJUkIb5zI1jXa+kSllU8Y0cKM5Gju ufjWbfuHthLT4mmmo3AcO1vRMuWWSGvb0+MVA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.143.153.30 with SMTP id f30mr5267165wfo.281.1266409936271; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:32:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:32:16 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: a56cccb328fc45ec Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: "Richard Chycoski (rac)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=12% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1HCWPnh000441 Cc: SAGE list , Tom Limoncelli , danaq@pobox.com Subject: Re: [SAGE] "measure twice, cut once" pattern with command line actions - references? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:32:25 -0000 Just yesterday I found Suicide Linux[0]: "Any time - any time - you type any remotely incorrect command, the interpreter creatively resolves it into "rm -rf /" and wipes your hard drive." Measure twice cut once indeed. I wonder if it has tab completion ... [0]: http://qntm.org/suicide On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 1:45 AM, Richard Chycoski (rac) wrote: > One of my favourite techniques when using 'for' loops is to put only 'echo' outputs in the for loop first, then up-cursor and edit the loop to become 'live'. I've saved myself many painful recovery sessions with this... > > Of course, you have to be in a modern shell (like bash) to be able to do this. On older machines you do the same thing by putting the commands in a file, executing the script, then editing to remove the 'echo' commands. For more complex loops this is still my preference, it's easier to read a (properly indented) script, and nice editors like vim can help pinpoint your script's inadequacies in 'living colour' - you *do* turn on syntax chaecking, don't you :-) > > The latter point is - let the computer do as much of the checking as possible. It will always attempt to do exactly what you told it, and can usually be relied upon to produce the GO part of GIGO if you prompt it to! > > When you're tired, distracted, under pressure or other issues, this is the time to make sure to tke the time to test before execution, and is the advice most often ignored. > > The was an extremely seasoned radiotelegraph operator who was capable of comfortably sending and receiving Morse Code at around 60 words per minute. (Being capable of 25 WPM is considered to be 'good' to ' proficiency for professional operators.) When asked what it was like sending emegency messages at that speed he replied that he simply didn't do that - he sent emergency traffic at 20-25 WPM - to ensure that most any proficient operator could copy the message  the first time, and that interference would have less impact, and that he would be more likely to send the message without corrections. > > Ratther than: > > Measure with a micrometer, > mark with chalk, > cut with an axe... > > Code with care before hitting return!!! > > > - Richard > >  -----Original Message----- > From:   Tom Limoncelli [mailto:tal@whatexit.org] > Sent:   Tuesday, February 16, 2010 08:17 PM Pacific Standard Time > To:     danaq@pobox.com > Cc:     SAGE list > Subject:        Re: [SAGE] "measure twice,cut once" pattern with command line   actions - references? > > On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Dana Quinn wrote: >> I remember a discussion in a book - I believe "The Practice of System >> and Network Administration" (which i think of as "The Bible")... >> around usage patterns to avoid making silly (or disastrous) mistakes >> at the command line.  This is especially needed when deleting files, >> when one bad mistaken pattern patch can really ruin your day. >> >> I briefly scanned my copy of the previous version of TPoSaNA, but >> couldn't find the discussion on effective usage patterns.  I'd like to >> come up with a couple references to share with my team.   Let's just >> say it's a timely topic right now for us.  Does anyone remember where >> this discussion is easily?  I thought it was introduced with the idea >> of "measure twice, cut once", but couldn't find that in the index. >> >> Also - I'd welcome pointers to any other material on this topic... it >> would be good to look at other material on this. >> >> Dana >> >> -- >> Dana Quinn >> danaq@pobox.com > > Dana, > > Thanks for the compliments about TPoSaNA! > > I think you are referring to "Learning from Carpenters": > 1st edition: page 96: Section 5.1.3 > 2nd edition: page 210: Section 16.1.3 > > Related things that come to mind: > > (1) > Put "echo" in front of the command line to test it. > First type: >     echo rm foo* > If that outputs the files you expect, then press cursor-UP, remove the > "echo", and press RETURN. > Don't re-type the line.  Use command line editing to repeat the same > line without the "echo". > > (2) > Build up command lines one part at a time.  Don't type a long Bash > one-liner all at once.  Keep adding to the line, testing it along the > way. > > Here's a post of mine where I built up a very long command line: > http://lopsanj.org/pipermail/lopsanj/2008-August/001881.html > > And an example of doing that in Time Management for System Administrators: > http://books.google.com/books?id=ENIZL_MffqsC&lpg=PA179&ots=9m2JxUTldu&dq=limoncelli%20virus%20in%20shell&pg=PA178#v=onepage&q=&f=false > > (3) Write the test before you do the solution. > > Suppose you have a bunch of machines that all need their BIOS > upgraded.  Add to your monitoring system to test if the BIOS is at the > new version.  Now start upgrading all the BIOSs until the alert is no > longer "red" or alerting.  If you send a machine for repairs and it > comes back with an old BIOS (happens all the time to me!) then you > will start to get alerts. > > (4) Document what you dislike doing. > > People are bad at the things they dislike doing, or get bored doing. > Turn them into checklists so that you can do them in your sleep. > (TPOSANA, 2nd edition, page 246; similar point made in TM4SA's > documentation chapter) > > Checklists are my current big favorite thing to talk about.  The book > "The Checklist Manifesto" > (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0805091742/tomontime-20) should be required > reading for people that are trying to improve the operational aspects > of an organization. > > Hope that helps, > Tom > > -- > Computer and network administrators... Spread the word! >       LOPSA New Jersey Professional IT Community Conference >       New Brunswick, NJ, May 7-8, 2010 -- http://picconf.org > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From andrew@research.att.com Wed Feb 17 04:51:04 2010 Received: from mail-pink.research.att.com (mail-pink.research.att.com [192.20.225.111]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HCp4LT000939 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:51:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@research.att.com) Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com (unknown [135.207.178.11]) by mail-pink.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C37FC421C for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:50:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from bigmail.research.att.com (bigmail.research.att.com [135.207.177.180]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3320CEF650 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:50:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [135.207.175.234] ([135.207.175.234]) by bigmail.research.att.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id o1HCoxCN015519 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:50:59 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: From: Andrew Hume Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:50:56 -0500 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] "measure twice, cut once" pattern with command line actions - references? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:51:05 -0000 two techniques in this vein that i have used: 1) set up the real work like DO "rm -fr $2" and define DO to be either echo or eval (more or less) 2) better, have the main script not actually do anything itself, but rather generate a plain (almost logic free) shell script which then needs to be executed. testing/developing then becomes simply debugging the main script and looking at its output. when you're comfortable, you can then mechanically execute it. (and leaving the generated script around as documentation of what you did.) ------------------ Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and LOPSA From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Wed Feb 17 04:52:39 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HCqdil001003 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:52:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HCqa26019895 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:52:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o1HCqZjU018207 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:52:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B7BE693.8070602@bio.umass.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:52:35 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rus Foster References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:52:35 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:52:40 -0000 Rus Foster wrote: >> Can the OP perhaps give a rough time line on when he (?) last really paid >> attention to this stuff > I really sat down technically at the start of 2008 so it about 2 > years. But beyond that its just been jumping in and out. I've now got > a few months where I can concetrate to get myself back up to speed There is a limit to how much you can tackle in 2 months. I had an "opportunity" like that when I was unemployed back in 1997-98. At that time I tackled high speed networking standards (competing 100MB at the time and other stuff), internet, and web. I ended up doing my resume in print form, pdf, and html, with the latter being an extended thing with links for details (all self contained). I put that all on a diskette with a nice label that I could hand out along with the print version. The interview for the job I finally accepted was significantly influenced by my study of the competing standards for 100MB and how that affected wiring choices. If I were doing it now, I would tackle virtualization and cloud computing. There is an enormous amount of stuff there to master in 2 months, but I think that is a significant part of where things are going, and there have been major developments in the last 2 years. However, that's a personal choice, and you have to ask yourself what you are interested in for your career. Whatever you do, do it hands on. Create your own lab, even if it is just home computers. -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From jens@quux.de Wed Feb 17 05:43:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HDhirj002051 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 05:43:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HDhefe021335 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 05:43:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 21292 invoked by uid 0); 17 Feb 2010 14:43:34 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 21288, pid: 21289, t: 0.0815s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 17 Feb 2010 14:43:34 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1NhkBg-0004DD-00 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:43:32 +0100 From: Jens Link To: sage-members@usenix.org Organization: - References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:43:32 +0100 In-Reply-To: <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> (Joel Merrick's message of "Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:30:49 +0000") Message-ID: <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:43:45 -0000 Joel Merrick writes: > Definitely echo IPv6! It's quite scary to think of the work needed for > deployment for even a fairly small company. I have to disagree. It's not that scary unless yo use lots of legacy soft- and hardware. A couple of days after one of my talks on IPv6 (and about 2 hours talking on the train ride home) one attendees dropped me a note that his network was using IPv6 now and that it took him about half a day to implement. Okay, he works for a small consulting company with less than 50 users. > I work for an ISP and we're in the analysis stages. It's akin to > pandora's box.. once you scratch the surface you find all sorts of > incompatibility issues and need for testing. Yes there are some issues. But most hard- and software (Linux, Cisco, Juniper) I work with dose support IPv6 for quite some time. And even if you have to buy new hardware it's better do notice that now (and get the budget to buy it in a couple of month) than in a year or two and ask your boss to spend quite a lot of money without warning. > The sooner you make stab at IPv6, the better. I totally agree. You don't have to change everything at once. There is still time. cheers Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From joel.merrick@gmail.com Wed Feb 17 07:21:17 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HFLHQC004345 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:21:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joel.merrick@gmail.com) Received: from gv-out-0910.google.com (gv-out-0910.google.com [216.239.58.187]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HFLELY024550 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:21:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by gv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c6so26620gvd.36 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:21:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=9DbHpAzkZwynT4EzHM6fdRKxbz0nNPQsP7pLBfQbxhY=; b=MRPzjMD9rm9E+UKEFHH6RMOu6TTzpGXX7myZc+12LJqeAajLpT3tlQ0UkytBZA2/01 fVued9n1I9Cfvs1VmsZmNemdLcjddRLJkVe7HuwGQFNPGcS1dJKr7sFq0BnkJ2XVu6Ds SYpMR6xy7US9B9b06okgqFcImHzckmWUEp+5k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=FGj7z+R4IahufkH7y+HJMsiBVaq2DOPdLg4eb+HynDs1gmPkjOEUlER6CsE4snXyAB 7aahyy9cRCwNrylhssykUAGLTZRfwt3bwOtru/wK1UkrBKWjLmh8fnYrPAMhq9pb2V+h ZbJPisqdaGMyhoVD6z2dfdwjgEQ4fvwJE8CiM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.154.204 with SMTP id f12mr910233hbc.153.1266420073051; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:21:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:21:12 +0000 Message-ID: <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> From: Joel Merrick To: Jens Link X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=14% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:21:18 -0000 On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Jens Link wrote: > Joel Merrick writes: > > > Definitely echo IPv6! It's quite scary to think of the work needed for > > deployment for even a fairly small company. > > I have to disagree. It's not that scary unless yo use lots of legacy > soft- and hardware. Haha, yea, we do.. we're not *that* large either. I'm sure in a more homogeneous environment they'll be less issues. Maybe I'm a little blinkered as we've only just started to understand the work involved, but thus far.. it's a lot! :) -- $ echo "kpfmAdpoofdufevq/dp/vl" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1)-1)/ge' From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Wed Feb 17 07:25:03 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HFP37R004463 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:25:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HFP0jS024659 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:25:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1HFP5WJ010023; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:25:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:25:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <62265.207.61.230.154.1266420306.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <4B7BE693.8070602@bio.umass.edu> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <4B7BE693.8070602@bio.umass.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:25:06 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Chris Hoogendyk" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:25:04 -0000 On Wed, February 17, 2010 07:52, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: [...] > If I were doing it now, I would tackle virtualization and cloud > computing. There is an enormous amount of stuff there to master in 2 > months, but I think that is a significant part of where things are > going, and there have been major developments in the last 2 years. > > However, that's a personal choice, and you have to ask yourself what you > are interested in for your career. > > Whatever you do, do it hands on. Create your own lab, even if it is just > home computers. If you want to do any kind of experimenting with multiple systems, it's probably easiest to use virtualization anyway. Unless you want to have a half dozen machines churning away sucking power. :) Most operating systems run fine under VMware, or even VirtualBox. The main exceptions are HP-UX and AIX, which are platform-specific; Solaris runs on (virtualized) x86 just fine. From timetrap@gmail.com Wed Feb 17 07:27:24 2010 Received: from mail-px0-f184.google.com (mail-px0-f184.google.com [209.85.216.184]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HFRO8U004540 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:27:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: by pxi14 with SMTP id 14so2610025pxi.15 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:27:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=A1Yo/yXxmBVK+LO4OCia55lpqwKPQ0ZurF+ZTmJymaw=; b=IsOoFE0X3kv5wlKOtoKNOYfnwOaxJhMWJ68h3gI3o42lFQJfWvcI5XJrlrm1XmJHZA ZI5LVWArWW2rpL6p8syw9y2p08MB4BNFSugeaxQRUaL8SZ+7QPc10DvNysqZLEV2EvkN 3mIQ051P6KoyctHMfUhDbiaz6vsK71ikKNUS4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=KhlJXpTVrc/xMlGUZAMNssbrSZLZ17h6VxzkTVRCZGHZMAkKSP7eUEl0DSk/uAJkTE HLB8QGWAZHnsMTMHdrD/16TAixLVRjP+x5Hh18S1haJ8BFraSFcKhTWiii77Hs0y4QU6 cTDj6XyzAahA3yorKSSr0U3PC+QBggIojDBzI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.247.33 with SMTP id u33mr5380737wfh.219.1266420438724; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:27:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:27:18 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: b2a9a5791da1b51c Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: Andrew Hume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1HFRO8U004540 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] "measure twice, cut once" pattern with command line actions - references? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:27:24 -0000 I like that; 'verb (verb-noun)' arrangement. On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Andrew Hume wrote: > two techniques in this vein that i have used: > > 1) set up the real work like >        DO "rm -fr $2" > and define DO to be either echo or eval (more or less) > > 2) better, have the main script not actually do anything itself, but rather > generate a > plain (almost logic free) shell script which then needs to be executed. > testing/developing then becomes simply debugging the main script and looking > at its output. > when you're comfortable, you can then mechanically execute it. (and leaving > the generated script around as documentation of what you did.) > > ------------------ > Andrew Hume  (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 > andrew@research.att.com  (Work) +1 973-360-8651 > AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and LOPSA > > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Wed Feb 17 07:31:12 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HFVCih004670 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:31:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HFV8B7024932 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:31:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1HFVGpf010471 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:31:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:31:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38959.207.61.230.154.1266420676.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:31:16 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: sage-members@usenix.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:31:12 -0000 On Wed, February 17, 2010 08:43, Jens Link wrote: > Joel Merrick writes: [...] >> The sooner you make stab at IPv6, the better. > > I totally agree. You don't have to change everything at once. There is > still time. If interested, there was recently a thread on the topic of IPv6 that the OP can check out: http://mailman.sage.org/pipermail/sage-members/2010/thread.html#00110 From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Wed Feb 17 07:50:14 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HFoEJQ005053 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:50:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HFoA1j025557 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:50:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1HFnvsQ011983; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:49:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:49:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:49:57 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Joel Merrick" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] prepping for IPv6 (was: Breakthrough stuff in the last few years) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:50:14 -0000 On Wed, February 17, 2010 10:21, Joel Merrick wrote: > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Jens Link wrote: [...] >> I have to disagree. It's not that scary unless yo use lots of legacy >> soft- and hardware. > > Haha, yea, we do.. we're not *that* large either. > > I'm sure in a more homogeneous environment they'll be less issues. Maybe > I'm a little blinkered as we've only just started to understand the work > involved, but thus far.. it's a lot! :) Well, any decent (read: POSIX) operating system released in the last ten years should have support for it. The BSDs were among the first (being where the reference KAME stack was developed), and Linux was there as well. I know Solaris 8 had decent support (~Feb. 2000). Similarly on the client side, most of Unix-y systems (including Mac OS X) should have good out-of-box support. I won't get into Windows, as I have no interest in it. :) Both Cisco and Juniper should also have decent support for equipment that's been out in the last five years. For software--again on POSIX-y systems--the main things would be DNS, mail, and web. I haven't heard of a major software product that runs on Unix that doesn't support IPv6--even Oracle (11gR2) has it now. Even recent application stacks, if you're fronting (say) Tomcat or Glassfish with Apache, it would be the web server that's handling this stuff. If you're allowed to say, can you mention what components you're having nightmares about? :) From jens@quux.de Wed Feb 17 07:52:37 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HFqbkO005100 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:52:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HFqX6g025715 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:52:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5791 invoked by uid 0); 17 Feb 2010 16:52:27 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 5786, pid: 5789, t: 0.0623s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 17 Feb 2010 16:52:27 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1NhmCP-0006s5-00 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:52:25 +0100 From: Jens Link To: sage-members@usenix.org Organization: - References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <4B7BE693.8070602@bio.umass.edu> <62265.207.61.230.154.1266420306.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:52:25 +0100 In-Reply-To: <62265.207.61.230.154.1266420306.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> (David Magda's message of "Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:25:06 -0500 (EST)") Message-ID: <87k4ub3lmu.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:52:38 -0000 "David Magda" writes: > Most operating systems run fine under VMware, or even VirtualBox. The main > exceptions are HP-UX and AIX, which are platform-specific; Solaris runs on > (virtualized) x86 just fine. And even some routing platforms can be run virtualized (at least for lab work, not for production use). There is dynamips for IOS and Olive for JunOS. GNS3 (http://www.gns3.net/) is a nice GUI for both of them. Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From tytso@thunk.org Wed Feb 17 08:27:52 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HGRq9B005924 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:27:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tytso@thunk.org) Received: from thunker.thunk.org (thunk.org [69.25.196.29]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HGRneD026854 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:27:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from root (helo=closure.thunk.org) by thunker.thunk.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.50 #1 (Debian)) id 1NhmkW-0001Jx-1f; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:27:40 -0500 Received: from tytso by closure.thunk.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NhmkV-0008B9-H4; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:27:39 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:27:39 -0500 From: tytso@mit.edu To: Chris Hoogendyk Message-ID: <20100217162739.GB5337@thunk.org> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <4B7BE693.8070602@bio.umass.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4B7BE693.8070602@bio.umass.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: tytso@thunk.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on thunker.thunk.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:27:52 -0000 On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 07:52:35AM -0500, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: > However, that's a personal choice, and you have to ask yourself what > you are interested in for your career. This is key; without knowing what you've done to date, and more importantly, what you want to do in the future, it's hard to give good suggestions. I will say that ext4 (which you had put on your list), is pretty trivial to learn from a system administrator's point of view, since it was designed as a drop-in upgrade to ext2/ext3. Unless, of course, you're interested in understanding what's going on under the covers, but that only makes sense if you are planning on getting into file system forensics, or maybe becoming a file system developer. Although given that you listed puppet as another technology you were interested in and given the list you are posting on, I was guessing that you are more interested in a system administor career track? Based on your e-mail address, your company seems to be a small web-hosting provider which appears to be using Linux; so it's not clear the Solaris suggestions are that helpful unless your plan is to move on to some other job position. But of course all of this are just guesses on my part.... > Whatever you do, do it hands on. Create your own lab, even if it is > just home computers. I would definitely second this piece of advice. Best regards, - Ted From jens@quux.de Wed Feb 17 08:54:57 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HGsvip006626 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:54:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HGsrtI027631 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:54:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23662 invoked by uid 0); 17 Feb 2010 17:54:47 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 23659, pid: 23660, t: 0.0765s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 17 Feb 2010 17:54:47 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1NhnAj-00089n-00 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:54:45 +0100 From: Jens Link To: sage-members@usenix.org Organization: - References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:54:45 +0100 In-Reply-To: <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> (David Magda's message of "Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:49:57 -0500 (EST)") Message-ID: <87y6ir246i.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] prepping for IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:54:57 -0000 "David Magda" writes: > I won't get into Windows, as I have no interest in it. :) I normally try to avoid Windows but they do support IPv6 very well. > Both Cisco and Juniper should also have decent support for equipment > that's been out in the last five years. It depends. Go ahead an ask Cisco for IPv6 support for Ironport. Other (spam filter) appliances have the same problem. > If you're allowed to say, can you mention what components you're having > nightmares about? :) My guess would be: Home grown accounting solutions and appliances. Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From joel.merrick@gmail.com Wed Feb 17 09:24:33 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HHOXKQ008025 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:24:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joel.merrick@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f200.google.com (mail-qy0-f200.google.com [209.85.221.200]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HHOTjL028510 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:24:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38so2068404qyk.1 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:24:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ChRg+42ZfYFKI/km53Vif3ALr8AcIpVjpBjVZVOy6s0=; b=F4QAQ/nF6DCXtvAQCtFAkCA4gOsG50XBCY5bJtT1cOAdVoceIc5hRuhxjkgdmq7gvW 0xlwwj6mJmj0ks6Rtop9HyUz/fL1rSGIfA2X1Niw0e6vLSym0h+xk9kkUsFa4vVIDegg XFA0WDMrIY5F9uDkKuoCOMT3VgfH7spjJxYzs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=CGxmQx/XgzraGa4P7UnMn0AycGbUeOagOQstjEGSYE8kJ4eZSTvg95fm+Uzm/Hko2D CUfc0bPhhqd5h1uTwPgedbEhNZZspFK/34uMOvqD5Ba6mppJHSLjgmPBgL33NQqZ5xWs PXZgVg+i4/7MkW18J6ovRozC1RwIHumvA+a0k= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.186.193 with SMTP id i1mr922438hbh.133.1266427074455; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:17:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:17:54 +0000 Message-ID: <543a57a81002170917vd3524d5jc8a6c30fc8042ef0@mail.gmail.com> From: Joel Merrick To: David Magda Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] prepping for IPv6 (was: Breakthrough stuff in the last few years) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:24:33 -0000 On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 3:49 PM, David Magda wrote: > > If you're allowed to say, can you mention what components you're having > nightmares about? :) PXE booting Home-brew provisioning & accounting Updating all out monitoring and related scripts etc. Legacy backup software on server and client side Dell DRAC 4&5 (only 6 is compatible...) Etc.... ! I'm a systems guy, so only really have been looking at that t.b.h. -- $ echo "kpfmAdpoofdufevq/dp/vl" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1)-1)/ge' From matt@ryanczak.org Wed Feb 17 09:46:46 2010 Received: from zap.planetfoo.org (zap.planetfoo.org [70.164.19.160]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HHkjFp008854 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:46:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@ryanczak.org) Received: from [IPv6:2001:500:4:15::16] (unknown [IPv6:2001:500:4:15::16]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zap.planetfoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 30D044B048A for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:46:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B7C2BFC.7040508@ryanczak.org> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:48:44 -0500 From: Matt Ryanczak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9pre) Gecko/20100216 Lightning/1.0b1 Shredder/3.0.2pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] prepping for IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:46:46 -0000 On 02/17/2010 10:49 AM, David Magda wrote: > > Well, any decent (read: POSIX) operating system released in the last ten > years should have support for it. The BSDs were among the first (being > where the reference KAME stack was developed), and Linux was there as > well. I know Solaris 8 had decent support (~Feb. 2000). Similarly on the > client side, most of Unix-y systems (including Mac OS X) should have good > out-of-box support. I won't get into Windows, as I have no interest in it. > :) Windows Vista / 7 support IPv6 as well as any other OS out there and are better in some regards, DHCPv6 support for instance. > Both Cisco and Juniper should also have decent support for equipment > that's been out in the last five years. I can't speak for Juniper but Cisco has a huge product line and a lot of it does not support IPv6 or does not offer feature parity between IPv4 and IPv6. In short there are a lot of products in Cisco space that lack IPv6 support. This is especially true outside of routing and switching. They are better than most large vendors though.... In my experience it's the little things like printers, copy machines, IP cameras and other embedded devices that can cause the pain. mod_proxy, 6tunnel or other proxies can help with this stuff though. > Even recent application stacks, if you're fronting (say) Tomcat or > Glassfish with Apache, it would be the web server that's handling this > stuff. But were the applications that leverage these application stacks, frameworks or libraries written to parse IPv6 addresses or deal appropriately with AAAA records in the DNS? ~Matt From jens@quux.de Wed Feb 17 09:58:04 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HHw484009145 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:58:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HHw02w029408 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:58:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 7016 invoked by uid 0); 17 Feb 2010 18:57:52 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 7011, pid: 7012, t: 0.0637s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 17 Feb 2010 18:57:52 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Nho9l-00013L-00 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:57:49 +0100 From: Jens Link To: sage-members@usenix.org Organization: - References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <543a57a81002170917vd3524d5jc8a6c30fc8042ef0@mail.gmail.com> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:57:49 +0100 In-Reply-To: <543a57a81002170917vd3524d5jc8a6c30fc8042ef0@mail.gmail.com> (Joel Merrick's message of "Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:17:54 +0000") Message-ID: <87iq9vu4ma.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] prepping for IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:58:05 -0000 Joel Merrick writes: > PXE booting > Home-brew provisioning & accounting > Updating all out monitoring and related scripts etc. > Legacy backup software on server and client side > Dell DRAC 4&5 (only 6 is compatible...) Implementing IPv6 doesn't mean that you have to get rid of IPv4 completely. So unless you run IPv6 only hosts you're provisioning, backup, etc. will still work. DRAC and PXE can use RFC1918 addresses. So in the first step you only need to worry about accounting an monitoring. Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Wed Feb 17 10:28:55 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HIStIP009987 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:28:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HISq3J000054 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:28:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o1HISo0w022743 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:28:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B7C3562.60803@bio.umass.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:28:50 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joel Merrick References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <543a57a81002170917vd3524d5jc8a6c30fc8042ef0@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <543a57a81002170917vd3524d5jc8a6c30fc8042ef0@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:28:50 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] prepping for IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:28:56 -0000 Joel Merrick wrote: > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 3:49 PM, David Magda wrote: > >> If you're allowed to say, can you mention what components you're having >> nightmares about? :) >> > PXE booting > Home-brew provisioning & accounting > Updating all out monitoring and related scripts etc. > Legacy backup software on server and client side > Dell DRAC 4&5 (only 6 is compatible...) > Etc.... ! > > I'm a systems guy, so only really have been looking at that t.b.h. upgrade. update. cost? go open source. You have time to study and learn now right? Legacy backup, for example, could be replaced with Amanda which can do IPv6, and it wouldn't cost. Or, if you wanted support contracts and help setting it up, you could get that from Zmanda. It would still be cheaper than pure commercial proprietary source code options. The same would apply to things like monitoring. Adopt an open source project that supports IPv6. You have to re-work the scripts, etc. anyway, so adopting something that is more adaptable, with pluggable modules or something, would end up giving you more power and flexibility. You might also be able to find open source replacements for other in house developed stuff. using open source allows you to minimize what you really have to spend money on. if you really can't update the hardware and remain stuck with a lot of older DRAC, then split the network and have a backside IPv4 that is private and only DRAC with a secure gateway you can go through from the IPv6 general network. -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Wed Feb 17 10:58:02 2010 Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HIw17J010962 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:58:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1HIw7o9027907 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:58:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:58:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <45021.207.61.230.154.1266433087.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <4B7C2BFC.7040508@ryanczak.org> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4B7C2BFC.7040508@ryanczak.org> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:58:07 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] prepping for IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:58:02 -0000 On Wed, February 17, 2010 12:48, Matt Ryanczak wrote: > I can't speak for Juniper but Cisco has a huge product line and a lot of > it does not support IPv6 or does not offer feature parity between IPv4 > and IPv6. In short there are a lot of products in Cisco space that lack > IPv6 support. This is especially true outside of routing and switching. > They are better than most large vendors though.... > > In my experience it's the little things like printers, copy machines, IP > cameras and other embedded devices that can cause the pain. mod_proxy, > 6tunnel or other proxies can help with this stuff though. For Phase I of IPv6, I think most organizations can probably have the following goal: on any workstation on the company, be able to see the KAME dancing turtle. Similarly, from your own infrastructure, you should be able to serve out a dancing turtle. All of this other stuff, while important, is extraneous to start and will just raise your blood pressure unnecessarily. Getting the above done--in addition to all the other projects--is probably enough over the a year's time to keep you busy. Once you can run 'ping6' and 'traceroute6', and get "good" results, you're in decent shape and ahead of 80% of most of the people out there. Even if you're a web shop, and don't (yet) offer IPv6 to customers, you need the above to even test things like scripts. If you haven't reach the Goal of the Dancing Turtle, you can't really proceed on anything else. You can keep your printers, copiers, cameras, etc. on IPv4: dual-stack isn't necessary on /everything/--IPv4 will still be usable. From joel.merrick@gmail.com Wed Feb 17 11:16:51 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HJGpFn011553 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:16:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joel.merrick@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.144]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HJGmf9001146 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:16:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so1154959qwf.22 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:16:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=D1f+cnREJRapciwajeQ5wAWvrsnrJGg7Fbn8a36yU1k=; b=dVJwVE19Ryeul4ylSKyT67jve/UebqBDesfWhPdnIGOodwrDliNN76xvxentoxl+kq NTdiWKz5picJ1tTzVRTySmwjPfBlJJFxqGnJUMegVkraN1zduqslFcIpDG2wt3PM2V7k vsgGBz+62zArwYm/Z5U3Jig2i0cwtvC+WrLc4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=dB9KiggUV4IDfHPJATyVFbTyDXhmwWuRaNEwxSPQ3UFu2SFmQbQELGwReLJ/TKe/NZ I1MygqPqtVwribhroZDNrZILA3CPdsL0hDTyEGBCDUmUz/C0jur9UUDYYwMxIVlUrBiJ khFxag26mZch1oDQzBlMPvgjABBnySmJfQN6E= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.185.77 with SMTP id b13mr888284hbh.158.1266434207109; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:16:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B7C3562.60803@bio.umass.edu> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <543a57a81002170917vd3524d5jc8a6c30fc8042ef0@mail.gmail.com> <4B7C3562.60803@bio.umass.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:16:46 +0000 Message-ID: <543a57a81002171116m616e89ceqb2ff8b6aebdbe019@mail.gmail.com> From: Joel Merrick To: Chris Hoogendyk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] prepping for IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:16:52 -0000 On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: > cost? go open source. You have time to study and learn now right? > > Legacy backup, for example, could be replaced with Amanda which can do IPv6, > and it wouldn't cost. Or, if you wanted support contracts and help setting > it up, you could get that from Zmanda. It would still be cheaper than pure > commercial proprietary source code options. The same would apply to things > like monitoring. Adopt an open source project that supports IPv6. You have > to re-work the scripts, etc. anyway, so adopting something that is more > adaptable, with pluggable modules or something, would end up giving you more > power and flexibility. You might also be able to find open source > replacements for other in house developed stuff. Very interesting, thanks. I suppose we should view this as a golden opportunity to weed out archaic bits of infrastructure that have been around for years... the only reason why they've not been migrated sooner is that they work (sometimes) and apathy I suppose. Probably could take this view for various things to be honest. silver linings and all.... > > using open source allows you to minimize what you really have to spend money > on. Amen to that! Joel -- $ echo "kpfmAdpoofdufevq/dp/vl" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1)-1)/ge' From jens@quux.de Wed Feb 17 12:08:42 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HK8gHH013091 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:08:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HK8cvh002483 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:08:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 2749 invoked by uid 0); 17 Feb 2010 21:08:32 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 2745, pid: 2747, t: 0.0605s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 17 Feb 2010 21:08:32 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1NhqCE-0003m4-00 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:08:30 +0100 From: Jens Link To: sage-members@usenix.org Organization: - References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <543a57a81002170917vd3524d5jc8a6c30fc8042ef0@mail.gmail.com> <4B7C3562.60803@bio.umass.edu> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:08:30 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4B7C3562.60803@bio.umass.edu> (Chris Hoogendyk's message of "Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:28:50 -0500") Message-ID: <878warlj5t.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] prepping for IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:08:42 -0000 Chris Hoogendyk writes: > Legacy backup, for example, could be replaced with Amanda which can do > IPv6, and it wouldn't cost. Bacula might also be worth a look when it comes to OSS backup systems. Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From philiph@pobox.com Wed Feb 17 23:21:25 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1I7LOsC030933 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:21:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from philiph@pobox.com) Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1I7LLTf015149 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:21:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.internal [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AB4DE0F20 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 02:21:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from web7.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.216]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 02:21:21 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=message-id:from:to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:subject:date; s=smtpout; bh=0Xk7aFJJTHXczEoUmQ7o9CFy8ok=; b=hNG+NkU7U/SaccXoaM0dpJbM7MoLSBXaG3pJNMk25ps9ydCxDI40T/191+e0AvvXDvaJRBjPt/3usk8JSUrv4cvSVsdKM+5unf7P4mjI5Aeezlfm2U/FqmboP8nj0YmvoMltDfRfzY7A82bTw50WsmQ5o1Y2o80DY22cshBNcuU= Received: by web7.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id F381110B902; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 02:21:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1266477680.28891.1360591665@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: c1dv7jKBzKSOlXUaRcHnaegqydhaoA4Np/x/soq7RBfE 1266477680 From: "Philip J. Hollenback" To: "SAGE Members" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:21:20 -0800 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=4% Subject: [SAGE] Interesting article on Intel server room environment management X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:21:25 -0000 Just came across this, wanted to share with everyone: http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2008/09/18/intel-servers-do-fine-with-outside-air/ the interesting thing that caught my eye is Intel says they just used normal household air filters and no humidity control, and they did not see an increase in equipment failure. Saved a lot of money too. P. -- Philip J. Hollenback philiph@pobox.com www.hollenback.net From doug@will.to Thu Feb 18 05:59:45 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1IDxiKE039971 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:59:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1IDxfPF005061 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:59:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [75.236.205.232] (232.sub-75-236-205.myvzw.com [75.236.205.232]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id o1IDvmjh004208 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:57:52 -0500 Message-ID: <4B7D475D.4030408@will.to> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:57:49 -0500 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Philip J. Hollenback" References: <1266477680.28891.1360591665@webmail.messagingengine.com> In-Reply-To: <1266477680.28891.1360591665@webmail.messagingengine.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:57:53 -0500 (EST) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Interesting article on Intel server room environment management X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:59:45 -0000 Philip J. Hollenback wrote: > Just came across this, wanted to share with everyone: > > http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2008/09/18/intel-servers-do-fine-with-outside-air/ > > the interesting thing that caught my eye is Intel says they just used > normal household air filters and no humidity control, and they did not > see an increase in equipment failure. Saved a lot of money too. > > P. > > As with any property, location location location. You wouldn't want to do this in Phoenix, AZ, as a for instance, and Seattle would be quite iffy because of persistent high humidity, nor would any place, I think, with really soupy summer days (a lot of the NorthEast is like this). * Condensing humidity is evil. * keeping those filters from blocking in a climate with a lot of pollenation in spring is tough, manual, exacting, and labor intensive * think also about the work environment that humans habitate We looked very carefully at free cooling when we evaluated choices for our new datacenter and determined that the combination of mechanical complication (a complicated system of dampers, feedback, and filters requiring high maintenance at some points and low in others) as well as some amount of dehumidification in summer to keep from condensing and some amount of dehumidification in winter to keep from zapping, as well as comfortable work environment for people made it somewhat impractical. (for us) From prvs=9665e1efb9=tytso@mit.edu Thu Feb 18 06:06:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1IE671o040132 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 06:06:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from prvs=9665e1efb9=tytso@mit.edu) Received: from dmz-mailsec-scanner-6.mit.edu (DMZ-MAILSEC-SCANNER-6.MIT.EDU [18.7.68.35]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1IE64oU005389 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 06:06:07 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 12074423-b7cebae000000968-23-4b7d49473e91 Received: from mailhub-auth-2.mit.edu (MAILHUB-AUTH-2.MIT.EDU [18.7.62.36]) by dmz-mailsec-scanner-6.mit.edu (Symantec Brightmail Gateway) with SMTP id 64.88.02408.7494D7B4; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:05:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.103]) by mailhub-auth-2.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.9.2) with ESMTP id o1IE5wxQ016427; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:05:58 -0500 Received: from [10.0.42.239] (c-98-216-98-217.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [98.216.98.217]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as tytso@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.12.4) with ESMTP id o1IE6HNR010140 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:06:18 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Theodore Tso In-Reply-To: <1266477680.28891.1360591665@webmail.messagingengine.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:05:56 -0500 Message-Id: References: <1266477680.28891.1360591665@webmail.messagingengine.com> To: "Philip J. Hollenback" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAARLvbOg= X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1IE671o040132 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Interesting article on Intel server room environment management X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:06:08 -0000 On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:21 AM, Philip J. Hollenback wrote: > Just came across this, wanted to share with everyone: > > http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2008/09/18/intel-servers-do-fine-with-outside-air/ > > the interesting thing that caught my eye is Intel says they just used > normal household air filters and no humidity control, and they did not > see an increase in equipment failure. Saved a lot of money too. If I recall correctly, an invited talks speaker from Amazon at a Usenix conference in the past year or two (I can't remember if it was ATC or LISA) said basically the same thing, and they had been doing this for a while. Apparently modern servers don't need as much coddling with respect to temperature and humidity as machines in the "good old days" (may they never return :-) - Ted From philiph@pobox.com Thu Feb 18 09:16:36 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1IHGabk045583 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:16:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from philiph@pobox.com) Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1IHGXAo011360 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:16:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2 [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59A2CE181E for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:16:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from web5.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.214]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:16:33 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=message-id:from:to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:subject:date; s=smtpout; bh=RyQzhP5CEQ+BGo1FsMppIGQjvHY=; b=a9zwaV2R4hI60aTEfMnBWSkpPxZejqtOFDROUbTvXHy7vT+JpUzdyQwJ7c3cniR3O5Fs4TeLg5El6/UHpdrGiRV7H9eI+vzP6pmBQxTj29K8SII6ldiIqwJo8lqSYK0d1aFwjOqmOvzULL7DWEaf6+0DKo7tGm75QJNeSeaQ2Aw= Received: by web5.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 3C5C21343E5; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:16:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1266513393.18977.1360676245@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: n8LnKo1uAyl4PTbDMuyHn+W2ImMswXEV2duQ7GlJrxzP 1266513393 From: "Philip J. Hollenback" To: "SAGE Members" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:16:33 -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=4% Subject: [SAGE] Hiring Service Engineers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:16:37 -0000 The giant internet company I work for is on a service engineer hiring spree. Shoot me an email if you're interested. P. -- Philip J. Hollenback philiph@pobox.com www.hollenback.net From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Feb 18 09:34:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1IHY7Gd045911 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:34:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1IHXvd3011838 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:34:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1IHXI4e012854; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:33:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <63646.207.61.230.154.1266514399.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: References: <1266477680.28891.1360591665@webmail.messagingengine.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:33:19 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Theodore Tso" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Interesting article on Intel server room environment management X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:34:08 -0000 On Thu, February 18, 2010 09:05, Theodore Tso wrote: > If I recall correctly, an invited talks speaker from Amazon at a Usenix > conference in the past year or two (I can't remember if it was ATC or > LISA) said basically the same thing, and they had been doing this for a > while. Apparently modern servers don't need as much coddling with respect > to temperature and humidity as machines in the "good old days" (may they > never return :-) I think ~20C is used out of habit more than anything else. There's also the fact that in a lot of places there's a lot of mixing happening between hot and cold aisles, so even if it's 20C out of the CRAC, by the time it hits the computer inlet, it's higher. If one is doing a "green field" data centre, you can probably get away with using mid- to high-20C if you properly design the aisle separation. A lot of sites are doing either hot or cold aisle containment, and not just separation. With a green field design, most modern systems could probably handle 30+C inlet. However it's best to keep in mind that "operators" will have to deal with those temperatures at times, along with the hot aisle as well (40C?). From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Feb 18 09:44:01 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1IHi1cQ046118 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:44:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1IHhraO012120 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:44:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1IHdGKH013314; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:39:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:39:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5302.207.61.230.154.1266514756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <4B7D475D.4030408@will.to> References: <1266477680.28891.1360591665@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4B7D475D.4030408@will.to> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:39:16 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Doug Hughes" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Interesting article on Intel server room environment management X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:44:01 -0000 On Thu, February 18, 2010 08:57, Doug Hughes wrote: > We looked very carefully at free cooling when we evaluated choices for > our new datacenter and determined that the combination of mechanical > complication (a complicated system of dampers, feedback, and filters > requiring high maintenance at some points and low in others) as well as > some amount of dehumidification in summer to keep from condensing and > some amount of dehumidification in winter to keep from zapping, as well > as comfortable work environment for people made it somewhat impractical. > (for us) If you don't want to draw in "raw" air, using heat exchangers / pumps may be a reasonable compromise for locales that have chilly winters. There's a supercomputer in Quebec that can use simple heat exchangers for around 200 days out of the year (IIRC): https://www.clumeq.ca/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLUMEQ http://www.google.ca/search?q=clumeq Their "industry partner" was Sun, and there's a video floating around (that I can't find right now) from an HPC conference where they explain the design and construction. From doug@will.to Thu Feb 18 10:45:28 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1IIjSaI047852 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:45:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1IIjPhb013857 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [149.77.212.99] (psistorm.nyc.deshaw.com [149.77.212.99]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id o1IIfq1d010293 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:41:53 -0500 Message-ID: <4B7D89EF.70402@will.to> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:41:51 -0500 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Magda References: <1266477680.28891.1360591665@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4B7D475D.4030408@will.to> <5302.207.61.230.154.1266514756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <5302.207.61.230.154.1266514756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:41:54 -0500 (EST) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Interesting article on Intel server room environment management X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:45:29 -0000 David Magda wrote: > On Thu, February 18, 2010 08:57, Doug Hughes wrote: > > >> We looked very carefully at free cooling when we evaluated choices for >> our new datacenter and determined that the combination of mechanical >> complication (a complicated system of dampers, feedback, and filters >> requiring high maintenance at some points and low in others) as well as >> some amount of dehumidification in summer to keep from condensing and >> some amount of dehumidification in winter to keep from zapping, as well >> as comfortable work environment for people made it somewhat impractical. >> (for us) >> > > If you don't want to draw in "raw" air, using heat exchangers / pumps may > be a reasonable compromise for locales that have chilly winters. There's a > supercomputer in Quebec that can use simple heat exchangers for around 200 > days out of the year (IIRC): > > https://www.clumeq.ca/ > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLUMEQ > http://www.google.ca/search?q=clumeq > > Their "industry partner" was Sun, and there's a video floating around > (that I can't find right now) from an HPC conference where they explain > the design and construction. > > Above a certain latitude this is very effective because a very large differential between the outside air and the inside air. The approach that works in Quebec may not be good for New Mexico and vice-versa. In more moderate climates, you can just use filtered outside air (assuming you don't have vast amounts of flora spreading their love). In colder climbs you might just have to humidify, or throw in a water/water HX or water/air. AHRAE certified data-center engineers are good at this stuff and will tell you what will work well in your climate (or not), sometimes with the appropriate caveats and reservations for your own risk assessment. From kurt.buff@gmail.com Thu Feb 18 12:51:03 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1IKp3Am051777 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:51:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f200.google.com (mail-qy0-f200.google.com [209.85.221.200]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1IKoxeZ018481 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:51:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38so3209222qyk.1 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:50:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=/eX7SsqGI1ElP37W6tMzNy3akdOjKU7owbV5n5w2/UA=; b=sZ+owxPH+cCz+EUIvvvSygE9ympevO2VWCUOI/ow1b+Siy72FOq80qfp0xzaruJ57q 9h2cT5NgVoIPowNovoR8uJc4Ewkcofcmz5h9ILf0McUF++ayCY0xUsbVu//ViCbvlbnT qZ0zpQp+fmittAklQP2anrmXgGu4u4tvUYzwY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=BWouEFzP3SXONkpCIjrAiBPnguxWWXnjoZlNyVF/nvzZuq21WqScE48OUzUcECpgI9 5PPyFvweX8SfhtZBK4VpNzY6TiulOB80mXaEQ5RIODxYFYkf1hWXlAueAFwQOUjhKDU6 V1Z2KRs8pquK5ZBNZ98FY9Vg6ywdxGZm2hZyM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.81.13 with SMTP id v13mr2836366qak.324.1266526254186; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:50:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:50:54 -0800 Message-ID: From: Kurt Buff To: SAGE Members Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Subject: [SAGE] Question regarding individual IM/video use at work X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:51:03 -0000 This is probably old hat and a settled question for many of you, but... Anyone out there care to share their policy and (very) general implementation info on IM and individual video conferencing usage? Does your company, for instance, allow users to install and use any of the major public/consumer IM/video apps and communicate directly to the major public IM/video providers such as MSN, AOL, Yahoo! and Google? If your company does allow it, what does the company consider to be the cost/benefit tradeoff WRT security and not using a centralized IM/video server with gateways to public IM/video services? Also, what security concerns were looked at before implementation and what measures, if any, were taken to mitigate them? If direct access to public IM/video services isn't allowed, is an IM/video service provided for business purposes, and if so, what are you using - MSFT OCS, or Openfire, or something else, and does it serve as a gateway to public services? If you can't comment on-list, but don't mind doing so off-list, I'd certainly appreciate it. Private responses will only be shared with my management team. Kurt From sigje@slick.sigje.org Thu Feb 18 13:12:04 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1ILC3YH052296 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:12:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sigje@slick.sigje.org) Received: from slick.sigje.org (slick.sigje.org [64.125.64.90]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1ILC0FA018983 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:12:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from sigje (helo=localhost) by slick.sigje.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiCzc-0001eA-Le for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:29:00 -0800 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:29:00 -0800 (PST) From: Jennifer Davis To: SAGE Members In-Reply-To: <1266513393.18977.1360676245@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20100218122648.U6333@slick.sigje.org> References: <1266513393.18977.1360676245@webmail.messagingengine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: Jennifer Davis X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Hiring Service Engineers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 21:12:04 -0000 My group in particular is actually looking for some awesome folks. You can read about what we work on here: http://developer.yahoo.net/blog/archives/2009/06/sherpa.html If it sounds interesting let me know. -- Jennifer Davis From tal@whatexit.org Fri Feb 19 07:43:23 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1JFhNqW082261 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:43:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com (mail-vw0-f41.google.com [209.85.212.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1JFhK2a020928 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:43:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws20 with SMTP id 20so62697vws.28 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:43:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.107.5 with SMTP id z5mr7606668vco.69.1266594194606; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:43:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91002162006h2996eacfm58aed15e2e1e40c9@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d49b3d91002162006h2996eacfm58aed15e2e1e40c9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:43:14 -0500 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91002190743l1516d3fbjf796e93a7e2b802a@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: danaq@pobox.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=1% Cc: SAGE list Subject: Re: [SAGE] "measure twice, cut once" pattern with command line actions - references? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:43:24 -0000 P.S. TPOSANA 2nd edition is readable online for Safari Bookshelf members: http://my.safaribooksonline.com/9780321545275/410 O'Reilly and Pearson (who owns Addison-Wesley) partnered to bring TPOSANA and other Pearson titles to the web. From awen1977@gmail.com Tue Feb 23 11:40:16 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1NJeFad042043 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:40:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from awen1977@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com (mail-pw0-f41.google.com [209.85.160.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1NJeCoX016600 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:40:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwj7 with SMTP id 7so3429758pwj.28 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:40:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=95wQMiGnBQdOTQBUzuFP4KdlG6W4V1afiryucraH16Q=; b=tKSfIoG7bnkAGU1NlXRyy5Kz2+ozdkiH/0nho9jzgAUk5hjymfQadOgvEP+29fi1j4 AhMw+oAwDf0c11zl0DpHHfTdjIUmfSWTp6V9WOG6IWdRUmTB2vbJDn4kvPEo25XW6lJ4 P0KYWcdxN7nPJ6NnRNvJhQ1rE3hAXt4V8BKdw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=f+Bt+1ZL5WKjD3gEKVPiNbkyLsULVV4oHPx9N0ZlMztf1/aSNt2j65rByqC0RL/aAk VmCE1AkuqvmSiBKIe5FzPFVhNcw6fVGIIoWydqOMvFu8YxeT5bqawClwZBTQRPKH6GmD 0zw1pO5BWkCro13mSoNoKtNU4e0JAKdLpBgq8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.114.5 with SMTP id r5mr1371231wam.196.1266954007635; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:40:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:40:07 -0800 Message-ID: <4934b8181002231140k10e5149ap1cdd9159007d52bf@mail.gmail.com> From: Alan Wen To: SAGE Members X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] Multiple openings for Service Engineers in yahoo X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:40:16 -0000 Yahoo!, the company I work for, has multiple 60+ openings for Service engineers! Send me an resume and I will help to forward to the hiring managers, :). Alan Service Engineers Do you know friends who=85 - Have a passion for solving technical problems, from the network to the application stack? - Want to write applications that provide infrastructure for deploying software to, manage, and maintain many thousands of servers? - Envision the ability to work with large scale systems which require performing almost no tasks manually? - Spend time trying to figure out how something works, not stopping with knowing just that it does? - Want to make real web applications and back-end systems faster, more reliable, more efficient? - Have extensive system administration background? - Have strong troubleshooting and problem solving skills, including application and network-level troubleshooting ability? - Have strong programming skills in one or more of: C, Perl, Python, Rub= y ? From jboris@adphila.org Tue Feb 23 12:12:16 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1NKCGgT042938 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:12:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jboris@adphila.org) Received: from chat2.adphila.org (chat2.adphila.org [64.9.9.80]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1NKCD0f018584 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:12:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw1.adphila.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chat2.adphila.org (Spam & Virus Firewall) with ESMTP id DC7DE324191 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from gw1.adphila.org ([172.19.2.123]) by chat2.adphila.org with ESMTP id qVV9pCCZFWxFPrNe for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from AOC-MTA by gw1.adphila.org with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:59:32 -0500 Message-Id: <4B83ED4D.2594.002B.0@adphila.org> X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 7.0.1 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:59:25 -0500 From: "John BORIS" To: "Alan Wen" , "SAGE Members" References: <4934b8181002231140k10e5149ap1cdd9159007d52bf@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4934b8181002231140k10e5149ap1cdd9159007d52bf@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1NKCGgT042938 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Multiple openings for Service Engineers in yahoo X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:12:16 -0000 Why would a person from yahoo soliciting applicants have an email address from Google? Isn't that like a person who works for Ford Driving a Chevy? >>> Alan Wen 2/23/2010 2:40 PM >>> Yahoo!, the company I work for, has multiple 60+ openings for Service engineers! Send me an resume and I will help to forward to the hiring managers, :). Alan Service Engineers Do you know friends who* - Have a passion for solving technical problems, from the network to the application stack? - Want to write applications that provide infrastructure for deploying software to, manage, and maintain many thousands of servers? - Envision the ability to work with large scale systems which require performing almost no tasks manually? - Spend time trying to figure out how something works, not stopping with knowing just that it does? - Want to make real web applications and back-end systems faster, more reliable, more efficient? - Have extensive system administration background? - Have strong troubleshooting and problem solving skills, including application and network-level troubleshooting ability? - Have strong programming skills in one or more of: C, Perl, Python, Ruby ? _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From richard@sullivan.cc Tue Feb 23 12:29:36 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1NKTatg043365 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:29:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from richard@sullivan.cc) Received: from defout.telus.net (defout.telus.net [204.209.205.55]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1NKTWST019123 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from edtnaa01.telusplanet.net ([75.154.254.138]) by priv-edtnes29.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.7.08.04.00 201-2186-134-20080326) with ESMTP id <20100223195908.QFA18714.priv-edtnes29.telusplanet.net@edtnaa01.telusplanet.net> for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:59:08 -0700 Received: from mail.sullivan.home (s75-154-254-138.bc.hsia.telus.net [75.154.254.138]) by edtnaa01.telusplanet.net (BorderWare Security Platform) with ESMTP id E05EB3E02BA9BB68 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:59:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sullivan.home (Postfix) with ESMTP id F276B1BC272 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:59:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sullivan.home Received: from mail.sullivan.home ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (max.sullivan.home [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7CfXkjC7yzdH for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:59:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from secure.sullivan.cc (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sullivan.home (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02061BC25A for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:59:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 137.82.4.76 (SquirrelMail authenticated user richard) by secure.sullivan.cc with HTTP; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:59:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4934b8181002231140k10e5149ap1cdd9159007d52bf@mail.gmail.com> References: <4934b8181002231140k10e5149ap1cdd9159007d52bf@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:59:07 -0800 (PST) From: "Richard Sullivan" To: "SAGE Members" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.17 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=14% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1NKTatg043365 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:39:08 -0800 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Multiple openings for Service Engineers in yahoo X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: richard@sullivan.cc List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:29:36 -0000 On Tue, February 23, 2010 11:40 am, Alan Wen wrote: > Yahoo!, the company I work for, has multiple 60+ openings for Service > engineers! > Ironically, from a gmail account... -- Richard From yesthattom@yahoo.com Tue Feb 23 13:06:59 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1NL6xaE044898 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:06:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yesthattom@yahoo.com) Received: from web51803.mail.re2.yahoo.com (web51803.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.38.234]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id o1NL6u8G020431 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 67057 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Feb 2010 21:00:11 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1266958811; bh=nTXZFpA2lEXUS1B7DoSS0RgZ+EU0hTjNmMRguwTBzSM=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=SpJLtGuWHqXU8GSc9Y7zKE4Y5ve5qU0zWXEDOnvo9IKXkU+J/lHdbRNuN98xFY9XFHgn7fmy32bprfMmJ45MNxcEhmCC7z957+cBsqyGhl1MAvV7XjIsIF0iasN/grM5FHF+WCsxRaZcZPPV+q2O+yfCptNtX0AipkkLQ5Hqe18= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=558auNOnBNQKBOl/dQRyZoSWxr/k1e4H8evQsOSjn/3JTT/EljII5Q5jghSAw3lwua6qGYYja1lwlIQpB3X4zpGtinFi4w8MJqcd/s/dsie23SWNldIBFJqgLLoKdCTwPbb2jroTpFoJ/cKSel3e6AvQboLr3ZS5ii+1cD+OTTg=; Message-ID: <999586.59239.qm@web51803.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: IjZb3QwVM1mDQIFhN60ZUfxD0GDvCdjsQqQLhUTPIfAYuTHQ74zYA6bpeH38ccTPIw4u9YDHaqyWYTDgnKatRAsuZ83s5MukUbHbwMvLbKNar3R36NwYIV7F32R2A.zqvVQ14XVQr46GflP3zC5b6Hrk7pdT.ZJMDK0nfZBK6ahxtzDDNJtMRSbFrmsn71J83ywd7zpnB9wFlnS5yjyVUyTcyK6nJR8KKzBUVrqK0lEBDlvGhifJWxnkVmO3Ji6muKCQyELadtV22FOzLVr.PiJpONVX5keVfLJ7Bg0rOlQkS2IJIbJCfkOPrWg6S...xoYxz9AxQl1bSUG0w25nAlUQho8vljqsDnhs68V8H4yxbQfOQeavaUamiq_WFTK31ZhFPqFCsA-- Received: from [72.14.228.129] by web51803.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:00:10 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/300.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:00:10 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Limoncelli To: SAGE Members MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=8% Subject: [SAGE] Multiple openings for Service Engineers in Google X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:07:00 -0000 Google, the company I work for, has multiple openings for Service engineers in NYC and Chicago! Perfect for entry-level sysadmins, or non-sysadmins that are highly technical and want to join the exciting world of customer support. We are also hiring sysadmins in [NYC, Mt. View, Zurich, Dublin, Boston, Seattle, and others]. Feel free to write to me if you have questions. Tom Limoncelli tal@whatexit.org -- http://EverythingSysadmin.com P.S. In solidarity with Alan Wen, who posted a Yahoo! job advert from his gmail account, I am posting this message about Google from my Yahoo account. But, seriously, please reply to my Google address: tlim@google.com -- Computer and network administrators... Spread the word! LOPSA New Jersey Professional IT Community Conference New Brunswick, NJ, May 7-8, 2010 -- http://picconf.org From mike.diehn@gmail.com Tue Feb 23 13:29:23 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1NLTND5045562 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:29:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike.diehn@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f177.google.com (mail-qy0-f177.google.com [209.85.221.177]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1NLTKSx021002 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:29:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk8 with SMTP id 8so49693qyk.4 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:29:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; bh=9wVc93NAGTMlBV6dB9DwmpkbFkyHd1lWSdS5d5Oi4Gw=; b=pJH95ETS5G9EgsCcjMSITv8oYRHnDGQgrtHUq36rfuWhVpHC1TatLk1PhpbT96qN/2 FEu0uLCMm0JrWARyu/X9pcLoJ7uNoc/maH7tBOj8MDaQRiZA+pEcso1DmjyQCfttYB1X MPyb8vv4g4F4tRHmEdae2Zl5saz8TGvWB2IOU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=ji26+T51YqIY8iYvd21d8wruq/B+Wym3pV+yDecwLGOdj3gyHawb9JE6R2nGNHVQOt MedZLXSgFddzmQ/wegnmxHmQE3/nv+mf9KVLj1AK33jZedN/EYXbaL787RNCyq36cZO8 m5Y+cg6uXPsNuhIN44TYqycojM5zPLHfzqHDM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mike.diehn@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.27.157 with SMTP id i29mr7197685qac.147.1266960094284; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:21:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B83ED4D.2594.002B.0@adphila.org> References: <4934b8181002231140k10e5149ap1cdd9159007d52bf@mail.gmail.com> <4B83ED4D.2594.002B.0@adphila.org> From: Mike Diehn Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:21:14 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: d47baea7dc62dbc5 Message-ID: <2a03c5ff1002231321y38d90bf3r27ebcee77b9c82a9@mail.gmail.com> To: John BORIS X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Multiple openings for Service Engineers in yahoo X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:29:24 -0000 Maybe he's thinking that sending that solicitation from his work account would be perceived as Yahoo! the company sending the message. Whereas, if he sends it from his personal account, it's just him as a private individual helping out the rest of us with some good info. On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 2:59 PM, John BORIS wrote: > Why would a person from yahoo soliciting applicants have an email address > from Google? Isn't that like a person who works for Ford Driving a Chevy? > > >>> Alan Wen 2/23/2010 2:40 PM >>> > Yahoo!, the company I work for, has multiple 60+ openings for Service > engineers! > > Send me an resume and I will help to forward to the hiring managers, :). > > Alan > > > Service Engineers > > Do you know friends who* > > - Have a passion for solving technical problems, from the network to the > application stack? > - Want to write applications that provide infrastructure for deploying > software to, manage, and maintain many thousands of servers? > - Envision the ability to work with large scale systems which require > performing almost no tasks manually? > - Spend time trying to figure out how something works, not stopping with > knowing just that it does? > - Want to make real web applications and back-end systems faster, more > reliable, more efficient? > - Have extensive system administration background? > - Have strong troubleshooting and problem solving skills, including > application and network-level troubleshooting ability? > - Have strong programming skills in one or more of: C, Perl, Python, Ruby > ? > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- Mike Diehn Diehn Consulting, LLC mike.diehn@gmail.com From jason@jasonantman.com Tue Feb 23 14:11:40 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1NMBesw046776 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:11:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jason@jasonantman.com) Received: from mailmaster.jasonantman.com (web2.jasonantman.com [96.57.180.134]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1NMBat2021882 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:11:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.43.136] (nat02-hill-ext.rutgers.edu [204.52.215.2]) by mailmaster.jasonantman.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id AA90E8D3D for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:03:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:11:35 -0500 From: Jason Antman User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070801) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 OpenPGP: url=http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x34EE2F92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:11:40 -0000 Yes, I know what you're all thinking from the subject, and I thought it too. I got an email from a colleague who is a long-time Windows admin and is currently managing a few admins and programmers. Though we didn't get into the details, I assume his department is mostly Windows. However, their web server farm (Debian-based boxes) is constantly growing, between more public-facing content and moving legacy apps to PHP-based web apps. They only have one Linux admin who's god on all of their web servers. Upper management has told him that he needs to get trained as a "LAMP Administrator", i.e. be ready to handle as much as he can if the linux admin is out or unavailable (or possibly gone??). I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training classes (at least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux administration, and even fewer for someone who's going to be entering a Debian environment. Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or online? Thanks, Jason Antman From awen1977@gmail.com Tue Feb 23 14:43:26 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1NMhQsc047709 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:43:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from awen1977@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com (mail-pw0-f41.google.com [209.85.160.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1NMhNLu022494 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:43:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwj7 with SMTP id 7so3576058pwj.28 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:43:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=kx0asqSj83pPLeFzLcm1fGuMSVhUqExxc9e1wiKKeJs=; b=KYPZhkBv/xF/XU5rkXoc7bWXH0QTIPhP6HGuM6iEuonVnUBwJDW4znrRlkvpXXWn+f OidCQagm3WLCod1LGZSWvJfdN1I0cQ6wRs9yztTHkh2kTYuLpH9q/kvYvpTe+hYmpyiY SzIFIpb26Jdz5gL3mt5D81iUewbJN0Nkks9Po= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=b2qs8OijsHtle96hXFR6VLrscVuDXFbv/6uxLwkMs/IZ9xxrMaHpAhHwpyvrRGR1Ym 0iECPwuUB7EogySIKkdyl3Femf+pZSkXSGlg4m1KJcQ7DAuPv2+ymTXbnMQjVWCFJZne gMUYs7ShrjbbDV25XVbHiAHiM/WDmDhf2hmLA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.163.13 with SMTP id l13mr2384686wae.121.1266964998359; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:43:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2a03c5ff1002231321y38d90bf3r27ebcee77b9c82a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4934b8181002231140k10e5149ap1cdd9159007d52bf@mail.gmail.com> <4B83ED4D.2594.002B.0@adphila.org> <2a03c5ff1002231321y38d90bf3r27ebcee77b9c82a9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:43:18 -0800 Message-ID: <4934b8181002231443g55c8d3b8l30e1c7b9d9a8ab47@mail.gmail.com> From: Alan Wen To: Mike Diehn X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: John BORIS , SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Multiple openings for Service Engineers in yahoo X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:43:27 -0000 Thanks, Mike. Yes, it is a personal effort to share the opportunities. I happen to use gmail account on this SAGE list, :). Alan On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Mike Diehn wrote: > > Maybe he's thinking that sending that solicitation from his work account > would be perceived as Yahoo! the company sending the message. Whereas, if > he sends it from his personal account, it's just him as a private individual > helping out the rest of us with some good info. > > > > > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 2:59 PM, John BORIS wrote: > >> Why would a person from yahoo soliciting applicants have an email address >> from Google? Isn't that like a person who works for Ford Driving a Chevy? >> >> >>> Alan Wen 2/23/2010 2:40 PM >>> >> Yahoo!, the company I work for, has multiple 60+ openings for Service >> engineers! >> >> Send me an resume and I will help to forward to the hiring managers, :). >> >> Alan >> >> >> Service Engineers >> >> Do you know friends who* >> >> - Have a passion for solving technical problems, from the network to the >> application stack? >> - Want to write applications that provide infrastructure for deploying >> software to, manage, and maintain many thousands of servers? >> - Envision the ability to work with large scale systems which require >> performing almost no tasks manually? >> - Spend time trying to figure out how something works, not stopping with >> knowing just that it does? >> - Want to make real web applications and back-end systems faster, more >> reliable, more efficient? >> - Have extensive system administration background? >> - Have strong troubleshooting and problem solving skills, including >> application and network-level troubleshooting ability? >> - Have strong programming skills in one or more of: C, Perl, Python, >> Ruby >> ? >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> > > > > -- > Mike Diehn > Diehn Consulting, LLC > mike.diehn@gmail.com > From maddog@li.org Tue Feb 23 17:09:21 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O19L5L051472 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:09:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from maddog@li.org) Received: from mail124c26.carrierzone.com (mail124c26.carrierzone.com [64.29.152.134]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O19Hjt025184 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:09:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authenticated-User: maddog.myfairpoint.net Received: from [192.168.2.100] (static-64-222-186-101.man.east.myfairpoint.net [64.222.186.101]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail124c26.carrierzone.com (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id o1O0OlHr015613; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:24:49 GMT From: "Jon 'maddog' Hall" To: Jason Antman In-Reply-To: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Organization: Linux International Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:24:47 -0500 Message-ID: <1266971087.3557.126.camel@shamet> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: maddog@li.org List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:09:22 -0000 Jason, Lintraining.com is a site run by an old friend of mine, David Whitinger. It is voluntary (but free of charge) to fill in the information about your site, so you may have to call a few places to see if they still offer classes, and you may have to play a bit with the URLs that it gives you to find a current one, but it allows you to put in your zip code (in this case "Manhattan"): http://lintraining.com/m/d/search/geosearch.php?zip=10020 and gives back a series of different companies, including IBM: http://www-3.ibm.com/services/learning/training.html which had to be massaged to: http://www.ibm.com/services/learning/training.html but you know how that is. Here is another example from the same website: http://www.hp.com/education/sections/linux.html Here is one from New Jersey http://www.malicom.com/ Go to www.lintraining.com to start searching. It is too bad the management can't understand "self study" ( "i.e. they want something they can cut a check for" ) The management probably would be unimpressed to know that I taught myself how to program through a Western Electric correspondence course in 1969 ("How to Program the IBM 1130 in FORTRAN"), or that I taught myself how to program in assembly language through reading some DEC "Pocketbooks" given to me by my DEC salesman. Or that I took a job programming in IBM's BAL after only reading a book on it. (sigh) md From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Tue Feb 23 17:10:07 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O1A7SG051491 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:10:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toq11-srv.bellnexxia.net (toq11-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.118]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O1A3H1025198 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:10:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from toip3.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.86]) by tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100224005446.VKRC1786.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip3.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:54:46 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAKMChEtMQR7M/2dsb2JhbAAH2geEbgSDFQ Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279336140.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.65.30.204]) by toip3.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 23 Feb 2010 19:43:09 -0500 Message-Id: <33E85541-B256-45BC-A9EC-4F8E321616D0@ee.ryerson.ca> From: David Magda To: Jason Antman In-Reply-To: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:54:46 -0500 References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=51% Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:10:07 -0000 On Feb 23, 2010, at 17:11, Jason Antman wrote: > I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, > but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital > into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. Book learning gets you going, but you need to practice. For a start, switch the primary desktop (either at work and/or at home) to Debian and start using it. Nothing learns you like having to use something day after day. At $WORK I have a corporate laptop for Outlook and the enterprise ticketing system, but have a Linux desktop for all my "real work": Solaris and Linux. I have one screen connected to the Linux machine, and use a single keyboard & mouse, and use Synergy to move focus between the two systems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy%2B http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy_(software) > I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be > picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training > classes (at least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux > administration, and even fewer for someone who's going to be > entering a Debian environment. > > Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or > online? $WORK has a deal with Global Knowledge: I did an intro ITIL course that was pretty informative and from what others have said they've had pleasant experiences with the classes as well. They have a few Red Hat- based courses that will be occurring in NYC: http://www.globalknowledge.com/training/category.asp?catid=400 I'm guessing RH033 and 131 would be where to start (in that order probably). It's not Debian, but "Unix is Unix" to a large extent. Debian is more of a community, so you don't have a centralized mechanism for developing training programs and such. From mike.diehn@gmail.com Tue Feb 23 17:17:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O1HWKG051662 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:17:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike.diehn@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.149]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O1HSrr025385 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:17:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so631111qwf.22 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:17:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; bh=N6lVhCt34Pgxyb8BPpi7B2vLqszn5J77jguUXsFQGdk=; b=ZzZKMIkz3U06AfVhKoGWodZmhvkttCVemeruXfUnsRkONTwL1kY1mP8WHvVr8bE01D EqP9ARJNssVVolOOJKkegZ4gLg7u9Ik4NVLEqyr4mULmm1RhfljyOGyQFuLnNZYWQXvp /rJUM3G3TcsNulXuTUP16cKb7pI8r4qRKXE3o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=Gn8fglbjX5F1jJ/u9loRNA9a9f595CXxZY0nmET/wc+NmErNYq0R8RorUd5SEGHrUs hQDo7yc9d2UPrPNbAR5IyMTdhRtV5ULIAjMbvEWr3z4NnphhCi+ii4p+3qGI5ZiYyTrq SkVTDZeLB+eaPOtiBM5FqxgW1hwRrpgl5Q1XY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mike.diehn@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.95.141 with SMTP id d13mr1262098qan.18.1266974248208; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:17:28 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> From: Mike Diehn Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:17:08 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ac44a33bec0536af Message-ID: <2a03c5ff1002231717k63d6ff59o3bac15431a7a4429@mail.gmail.com> To: Jason Antman X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:17:32 -0000 Community colleges, tech schools and the like often offer an Intro to SysAdmin using Linux. Google for "community colleges of new jersey" led me to this: http://www.50states.com/cc/newjerse.htm and editing that URL got me to this: http://www.50states.com/cc/newyork.htm Here's a listing for certification programs I got to through some more creative googling: http://www.emagister.net/linux+administration+programs/ek-1466.htm That site seems to have a decent search engine, too. Maybe your friend's company would put out for some travel to get him to short duration, non-local programs? Good luck! Best, Mike On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Jason Antman wrote: > Yes, I know what you're all thinking from the subject, and I thought it > too. > > I got an email from a colleague who is a long-time Windows admin and is > currently managing a few admins and programmers. Though we didn't get > into the details, I assume his department is mostly Windows. However, > their web server farm (Debian-based boxes) is constantly growing, > between more public-facing content and moving legacy apps to PHP-based > web apps. They only have one Linux admin who's god on all of their web > servers. Upper management has told him that he needs to get trained as a > "LAMP Administrator", i.e. be ready to handle as much as he can if the > linux admin is out or unavailable (or possibly gone??). > > I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, > but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital > into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. > > I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be > picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training classes > (at least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux administration, and even > fewer for someone who's going to be entering a Debian environment. > > Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or > online? > > Thanks, > Jason Antman > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- Mike Diehn Diehn Consulting, LLC mike.diehn@gmail.com From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Tue Feb 23 18:36:50 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O2ao3g053692 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:36:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toq5-srv.bellnexxia.net (toq5-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.27]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O2akTX027630 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from toip5.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.88]) by tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100224014632.BVDV28265.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip5.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:46:32 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAMcRhEtMQR7M/2dsb2JhbAAH2hCEbgSDFQ Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279336140.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.65.30.204]) by toip5.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 23 Feb 2010 20:46:04 -0500 Message-Id: <949C70F6-326B-4662-BBD2-03517536F2A7@ee.ryerson.ca> From: David Magda To: maddog@li.org In-Reply-To: <1266971087.3557.126.camel@shamet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:46:31 -0500 References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> <1266971087.3557.126.camel@shamet> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:36:50 -0000 On Feb 23, 2010, at 19:24, Jon 'maddog' Hall wrote: > It is too bad the management can't understand "self study" It may also be that they're in a bit of a rush, and so are willing to pay for "concentrated learning"--at least to get the basics down. From treed@copilotco.com Tue Feb 23 18:43:05 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O2h4bp053935 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:43:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O2h13E027764 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:43:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id CA0F264C6B; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:43:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:43:21 -0800 From: Tracy Reed To: Mike Diehn Message-ID: <20100224024321.GM22103@tracyreed.org> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> <2a03c5ff1002231717k63d6ff59o3bac15431a7a4429@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wwtQuX191/I956S7" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2a03c5ff1002231717k63d6ff59o3bac15431a7a4429@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:43:05 -0000 --wwtQuX191/I956S7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 08:17:08PM -0500, Mike Diehn spake thusly: > Community colleges, tech schools and the like often offer an Intro to > SysAdmin using Linux. Google for "community colleges of new jersey" led = me > to this: My wife has recently expressed an interest in learning basic Linux skills so she can better understand what our company does.=20 We are too close to have any patience with each other so I cannot teach her. She just doesn't like online classes (although she is taking a few in her MBA program right now) and wants a classroom/lab environment. All of the community colleges and school districts who used to teach Linux here in San Diego have cancelled all of their Linux classes as of the last couple of years. There used to be several options. Now there isn't a single one to be had anywhere in San Diego County as far as I know. When approached about it the existing computer teachers verge on hostility (presumably because Linux isn't their thing and threatens that which is). There are various conspiracy theories about what happened but the most likely seems to be that the economy did in the Linux classes. There are some very pricey private school options. The best I can find is a 5 day crash-course for $2,338 starting this March. Ouch. Too pricey and likely too fast for her to benefit from. As a result of all of this a friend and I from the LUG are seriously considering starting our own local Linux class. He has taught Linux before both online and in-person and has access to a professionally designed curriculum. I doubt there is any money in it and we will be happy to cover our costs but it seems like something that needs to be done. I owe the community anyway for all the training and other resources they have given me over the years. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --wwtQuX191/I956S7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLhJJJ9PIYKZYVAq0RAmaRAJ4rct/CNQIaUrMJHWda48RApbxeXACeIjqx 7V5/3i5/CO0eTsKVlpmnfIw= =i7ZZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wwtQuX191/I956S7-- From sechrest@gmail.com Tue Feb 23 18:53:20 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O2rKAq054170 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:53:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sechrest@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pv0-f169.google.com (mail-pv0-f169.google.com [74.125.83.169]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O2rH0T028027 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:53:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by pvh11 with SMTP id 11so568454pvh.28 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:53:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=r4AGVhsWWXv9S7+E4Yf7T1NZuQUI61OktBFuYs9veTc=; b=n5sjk0Rc+qZVOS565SPIDE19sJcKWoSO/NcaCx8lhfWm9jCUrkdLn+p61+xLUPOwv2 LAJHPlCBZyoXqbDzM4Mnbr8EIMjc2Cmc8ElJwirVsAC3dILNj7tfXwM1+TXfjDC7qkip c2Fn/m26Vaw9+GNNTS6WUqa+NwMUkM5IGvbs0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=WaQh2Tyo0LvK8Tj2Hvzn679utgFu2HbEj0E9Dtz6NEhZpxvlyzFwiI+LEOZ+SmKWEU FOVAfveaby4dBhR6fdkrzCI6XgNCMmHBwfVjglvCuJq6VLRStlICdLjE+BHqD6Yz5Twi FGlRPRYrh7eyjNKyLytlDCvSTczIaUlAaoEqc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: sechrest@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.188.23 with SMTP id l23mr149395waf.40.1266979991317; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:53:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100224024321.GM22103@tracyreed.org> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> <2a03c5ff1002231717k63d6ff59o3bac15431a7a4429@mail.gmail.com> <20100224024321.GM22103@tracyreed.org> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:53:11 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3ee4f3768a845cc3 Message-ID: <313372bc1002231853x4594f695n2ec7e8eff774a233@mail.gmail.com> From: John Sechrest To: Tracy Reed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:53:21 -0000 I taught System Admin for several years at a University. There are few options that I know about these days. But the UCBerkely system did have a System Admin extension course that was interesting. There are several books on system admin that we used to use in the courses. So there are reasonable places to start. You may find that you don't need a whole "Course" , but a "Course of study" That is to have a collection of tasks/skills that you want to have. And then from that backcast what learning is needed. When I taught my courses, I would use a Wiki at the center of the discussion. And the first assignment was to get a copy linux Journal, read an article and put up on the wiki 10 words were knew/unknown. And then to expand upon the definitions of those words. If you then work thru the material with the LUG and your friend, you will not only get your wife to know more linux, but you will create a resource that others will find interesting. At the end of my courses, the students would get to walk away with the wiki materials for the course. On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 6:43 PM, Tracy Reed wrote: > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 08:17:08PM -0500, Mike Diehn spake thusly: > > Community colleges, tech schools and the like often offer an Intro to > > SysAdmin using Linux. Google for "community colleges of new jersey" led > me > > to this: > > My wife has recently expressed an interest in learning basic Linux > skills so she can better understand what our company does. > > We are too close to have any patience with each other so I cannot > teach her. She just doesn't like online classes (although she is > taking a few in her MBA program right now) and wants a classroom/lab > environment. All of the community colleges and school districts who > used to teach Linux here in San Diego have cancelled all of their > Linux classes as of the last couple of years. There used to be several > options. Now there isn't a single one to be had anywhere in San Diego > County as far as I know. When approached about it the existing > computer teachers verge on hostility (presumably because Linux isn't > their thing and threatens that which is). There are various conspiracy > theories about what happened but the most likely seems to be that the > economy did in the Linux classes. > > There are some very pricey private school options. The best I can find > is a 5 day crash-course for $2,338 starting this March. Ouch. Too > pricey and likely too fast for her to benefit from. > > As a result of all of this a friend and I from the LUG are seriously > considering starting our own local Linux class. He has taught Linux > before both online and in-person and has access to a professionally > designed curriculum. > > I doubt there is any money in it and we will be happy to cover our > costs but it seems like something that needs to be done. I owe the > community anyway for all the training and other resources they have > given me over the years. > > -- > Tracy Reed > http://tracyreed.org > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > -- John Sechrest . Corvallis Benton . Chamber Coalition . 420 NW 2nd . (541) 757-1507 . sechrest@corvallisedp.com . . From kurin@delete.org Tue Feb 23 19:27:13 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O3RCdQ055090 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:27:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurin@delete.org) Received: from carbon.delete.org (carbon.delete.org [173.203.205.179]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O3R9aS028724 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:27:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from carbon.delete.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by carbon.delete.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E923C8275; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:17:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by carbon.delete.org (Postfix, from userid 1006) id BFA2D89E8; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:17:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:17:19 -0500 From: Toby Burress To: John Sechrest Message-ID: <20100224031719.GB30728@carbon.delete.org> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> <2a03c5ff1002231717k63d6ff59o3bac15431a7a4429@mail.gmail.com> <20100224024321.GM22103@tracyreed.org> <313372bc1002231853x4594f695n2ec7e8eff774a233@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <313372bc1002231853x4594f695n2ec7e8eff774a233@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members , Tracy Reed Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 03:27:13 -0000 Seriously: freebsd.org/handbook On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 06:53:11PM -0800, John Sechrest wrote: > I taught System Admin for several years at a University. There are few > options that I know about these days. But the UCBerkely system did have a > System Admin extension course that was interesting. > > There are several books on system admin that we used to use in the courses. > So there are reasonable places to start. > > You may find that you don't need a whole "Course" , but a "Course of study" > > That is to have a collection of tasks/skills that you want to have. And then > from that backcast what learning is needed. > > When I taught my courses, I would use a Wiki at the center of the > discussion. And the first assignment was to get a copy linux Journal, read > an article and put up on the wiki 10 words were knew/unknown. And then to > expand upon the definitions of those words. > > If you then work thru the material with the LUG and your friend, you will > not only get your wife to know more linux, but you will create a resource > that others will find interesting. > > At the end of my courses, the students would get to walk away with the wiki > materials for the course. > > > > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 6:43 PM, Tracy Reed wrote: > > > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 08:17:08PM -0500, Mike Diehn spake thusly: > > > Community colleges, tech schools and the like often offer an Intro to > > > SysAdmin using Linux. Google for "community colleges of new jersey" led > > me > > > to this: > > > > My wife has recently expressed an interest in learning basic Linux > > skills so she can better understand what our company does. > > > > We are too close to have any patience with each other so I cannot > > teach her. She just doesn't like online classes (although she is > > taking a few in her MBA program right now) and wants a classroom/lab > > environment. All of the community colleges and school districts who > > used to teach Linux here in San Diego have cancelled all of their > > Linux classes as of the last couple of years. There used to be several > > options. Now there isn't a single one to be had anywhere in San Diego > > County as far as I know. When approached about it the existing > > computer teachers verge on hostility (presumably because Linux isn't > > their thing and threatens that which is). There are various conspiracy > > theories about what happened but the most likely seems to be that the > > economy did in the Linux classes. > > > > There are some very pricey private school options. The best I can find > > is a 5 day crash-course for $2,338 starting this March. Ouch. Too > > pricey and likely too fast for her to benefit from. > > > > As a result of all of this a friend and I from the LUG are seriously > > considering starting our own local Linux class. He has taught Linux > > before both online and in-person and has access to a professionally > > designed curriculum. > > > > I doubt there is any money in it and we will be happy to cover our > > costs but it seems like something that needs to be done. I owe the > > community anyway for all the training and other resources they have > > given me over the years. > > > > -- > > Tracy Reed > > http://tracyreed.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sage-members mailing list > > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > > > > > > -- > John Sechrest . > Corvallis Benton . > Chamber Coalition . > 420 NW 2nd . > (541) 757-1507 . sechrest@corvallisedp.com > . > > > . > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From kurt.buff@gmail.com Tue Feb 23 19:37:02 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O3b1vQ055284 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:37:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.145]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O3awAn028971 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:37:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so648927qwf.22 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:36:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=noAuAxBROaUK0z4eVYzDis7gOA/UTlNVjjJCM6eda+Q=; b=jNtom05AlbRLRdRFIY+6rBJF1zLdAuBad3lX70pxJbbc64wb3xSsaNfVw8WmsYR9nU 7Kgst3JWQ+91nsDvZM4iIXzferbEDjRJf8yPdCFS5BECfvecx7w69gBtc65M7hycMqdc eJZcUnc9oUnKe8izmf80uv4sAgGJxUwC6kQqQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=f0ye/VOMltyNiOG6olJdiCCwPEyF+mRRF63oDeD8PfUB2C50bDP0lPiwXGF0BuegKG Ljs6r6Uz3OOVWc7UFj6NheYedh3nTeXJGNxQKY+PND3x6lZfBBo7zK1ZCPmfq6LaPp69 G83bCxSFs1LRhYXLreLQWrndj44pIpQH049L4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.101.146 with SMTP id c18mr5376014qao.269.1266982618184; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:36:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100224031719.GB30728@carbon.delete.org> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> <2a03c5ff1002231717k63d6ff59o3bac15431a7a4429@mail.gmail.com> <20100224024321.GM22103@tracyreed.org> <313372bc1002231853x4594f695n2ec7e8eff774a233@mail.gmail.com> <20100224031719.GB30728@carbon.delete.org> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:36:58 -0800 Message-ID: From: Kurt Buff To: Toby Burress Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1O3b1vQ055284 Cc: SAGE Members , Tracy Reed Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 03:37:02 -0000 +1 On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 19:17, Toby Burress wrote: > Seriously: freebsd.org/handbook > > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 06:53:11PM -0800, John Sechrest wrote: >> I taught System Admin for several years at a University. There are few >> options that I know about these days. But the UCBerkely system did have a >> System Admin extension course that was interesting. >> >> There are several books on system admin that we used to use in the courses. >> So there are reasonable places to start. >> >> You may find that you don't need a whole "Course" , but a "Course of study" >> >> That is to have a collection of tasks/skills that you want to have. And then >> from that backcast what learning is needed. >> >> When I taught my courses, I would use a Wiki at the center of the >> discussion. And the first assignment was to get a copy linux Journal, read >> an article and put up on the wiki 10 words were knew/unknown. And then to >> expand upon the definitions of those words. >> >> If you then work thru the material with the LUG and your friend, you will >> not only get your wife to know more linux, but you will create a resource >> that others will find interesting. >> >> At the end of my courses, the students would get to walk away with the wiki >> materials for the course. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 6:43 PM, Tracy Reed wrote: >> >> > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 08:17:08PM -0500, Mike Diehn spake thusly: >> > > Community colleges, tech schools and the like often offer an Intro to >> > > SysAdmin using Linux.  Google for "community colleges of new jersey" led >> > me >> > > to this: >> > >> > My wife has recently expressed an interest in learning basic Linux >> > skills so she can better understand what our company does. >> > >> > We are too close to have any patience with each other so I cannot >> > teach her. She just doesn't like online classes (although she is >> > taking a few in her MBA program right now) and wants a classroom/lab >> > environment. All of the community colleges and school districts who >> > used to teach Linux here in San Diego have cancelled all of their >> > Linux classes as of the last couple of years. There used to be several >> > options. Now there isn't a single one to be had anywhere in San Diego >> > County as far as I know. When approached about it the existing >> > computer teachers verge on hostility (presumably because Linux isn't >> > their thing and threatens that which is). There are various conspiracy >> > theories about what happened but the most likely seems to be that the >> > economy did in the Linux classes. >> > >> > There are some very pricey private school options. The best I can find >> > is a 5 day crash-course for $2,338 starting this March. Ouch. Too >> > pricey and likely too fast for her to benefit from. >> > >> > As a result of all of this a friend and I from the LUG are seriously >> > considering starting our own local Linux class. He has taught Linux >> > before both online and in-person and has access to a professionally >> > designed curriculum. >> > >> > I doubt there is any money in it and we will be happy to cover our >> > costs but it seems like something that needs to be done. I owe the >> > community anyway for all the training and other resources they have >> > given me over the years. >> > >> > -- >> > Tracy Reed >> > http://tracyreed.org >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > sage-members mailing list >> > sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> John Sechrest          . >> Corvallis Benton        . >>    Chamber Coalition      . >>       420 NW 2nd                   . >>              (541) 757-1507              . sechrest@corvallisedp.com >>                                                                      . >> >> >>        . >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From kurt.buff@gmail.com Tue Feb 23 19:44:01 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O3i1oR055475 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:44:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.145]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O3hwi1029140 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:44:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so649700qwf.22 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:43:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=J8/aQfGUOAJqpt/fzAaOsdntSaQAsxmNIJE3dobhZVQ=; b=KS8XOmacWm8X9PTFk3NTEf464X0yerSBXqRA9D+/shgZH+FrRg/XzAQ6aU96OxkD3h R7cl+F+f58f8yaWxcTVm6rfd/+B41+8F5fHMobw4PjO9HROgB036xH4Rf59owKt0p3lr nxqrP3oVlxyvqV4MgmZAy542hJ1M3k+cFmHw4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=j0LkuAg5UA/FTLTEZyTLlsJtnOUUg3f1aC8kXpSL4vLg9EEbS1rcng5U23siyd00xO sbQqb1PbDL/1J5f33pdq/px8b/vMUX5WiPl/4MGKG6ptxPaKEPvb8PHGW+W6ZIcAvnl/ UhrgqaADuDF8UVG45WfhLAeUzFR+kohoeF2bQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.106.80 with SMTP id w16mr134789qao.362.1266982569597; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:36:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:36:09 -0800 Message-ID: From: Kurt Buff To: Jason Antman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=6% Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 03:44:02 -0000 On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 14:11, Jason Antman wrote: > Yes, I know what you're all thinking from the subject, and I thought it > too. > > I got an email from a colleague who is a long-time Windows admin and is > currently managing a few admins and programmers. Though we didn't get > into the details, I assume his department is mostly Windows. However, > their web server farm (Debian-based boxes) is constantly growing, > between more public-facing content and moving legacy apps to PHP-based > web apps. They only have one Linux admin who's god on all of their web > servers. Upper management has told him that he needs to get trained as a > "LAMP Administrator", i.e. be ready to handle as much as he can if the > linux admin is out or unavailable (or possibly gone??). > > I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, > but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital > into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. > > I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be > picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training classes > (at least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux administration, and even > fewer for someone who's going to be entering a Debian environment. > > Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or online? It's not *exactly* linux, but perhaps this might be of some use? http://www.bsdcertification.org/ has a CD/DVD with learning materials and installables. Just a thought. Kurt From bwhitehd@gmail.com Tue Feb 23 21:00:29 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O50St7057650 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:00:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bwhitehd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com (mail-vw0-f41.google.com [209.85.212.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O50NkR000946 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws15 with SMTP id 15so283445vws.28 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:00:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=+i/ErK0n/zB2+kyYo3p7HfD2CDAdkhyqgWN4uvqUFYw=; b=iKx8mQcQNOpkr1QGht1NsxynHmikgnE4I3OQzjMAnPAb78kg50qLNTdO65uGAUtj7q QyZPmfAQE/6GLQprPpY7Q0VB4mctElK1EpquNzJMkmb9ld6fF93hCjy4COcbAnvQB7CB 1JrdKZn70EOjsDbVzk4zLWWgLIqBiwPXV7lHU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=OYKmqdhrmtUMyib1UqpPxS13vmjmNZmrP6iOTa+YKx31qGgQivpT+/HGjnRZ4DmCj6 /iDFwirW/SYLTA6wgQW6m5tdR56ULFZrfFZiAZJHFhHJbp+t1qY6EW+yqkmqggGpYJNU Rq1d5i5okD9SlyxGMCklIq3AtzBkvrXm9oESs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.122.141 with SMTP id l13mr2405183vcr.172.1266987615094; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:00:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> From: Brian Whitehead Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:59:55 -0500 Message-ID: To: Jason Antman X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=1% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 05:00:29 -0000 I used to think that the Sair/GNU Linux certification courses ( http://www.linuxcertification.org/) were great years ago for distribution independent training. Unfortunately, some Thomson Prometric bought them out and basically let them die. They were offered at New Horizons and similar locations. According to their site, they still exist, but the curriculum doesn't appear to have been updated in years. The Red Hat training is good, but obviously geared to their products. The overall Linux information still applies to Debian, with the exception of the package manager and few other things. You might want to take a look at training classes for the CompTIA Linux+ or the LPI certifications. There should be companies that offer these in your area. Take the information as a starting point and build on it. A lot of times, the trainers of these classes aren't Linux gurus, just trainers following a curriculum. Over the years I've read a lot of docs provided by this company that are good. They provide training and even cover the LPI cert. ttp:// www.gurulabs.com/linux-training/courses/ There are plenty of resources out there, you just have to do a little searching. Make sure you get some references on anything you're going to pay money for though. -- Brian On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Jason Antman wrote: > Yes, I know what you're all thinking from the subject, and I thought it > too. > > I got an email from a colleague who is a long-time Windows admin and is > currently managing a few admins and programmers. Though we didn't get > into the details, I assume his department is mostly Windows. However, > their web server farm (Debian-based boxes) is constantly growing, > between more public-facing content and moving legacy apps to PHP-based > web apps. They only have one Linux admin who's god on all of their web > servers. Upper management has told him that he needs to get trained as a > "LAMP Administrator", i.e. be ready to handle as much as he can if the > linux admin is out or unavailable (or possibly gone??). > > I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, > but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital > into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. > > I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be > picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training classes > (at least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux administration, and even > fewer for someone who's going to be entering a Debian environment. > > Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or > online? > > Thanks, > Jason Antman > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From cheselka@gmail.com Tue Feb 23 21:52:06 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O5q61c058981 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:52:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cheselka@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ww0-f41.google.com (mail-ww0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O5q2e9002083 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:52:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by wwb24 with SMTP id 24so985552wwb.28 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:51:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/kMAvEwaQcbTkH6OuLRlxskXAUEBTOVL/zkaDmQet6A=; b=gcCe34GQI7SLEwvkhbECmWinl+AHms8EHU01PeBKQF9bmW1c+QDggGg28MHXSGfioQ XSoPtUgfsDDabTUAY/EuzIL+yfupCC72TBYHGxLFoTfCNpHduVjPSv7d+EPZFRblH1o9 mdbzXe+l0zGEUGhjvbx4SngBWi+YGhDxcqUl0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=qhUgaLzb0rZsNHpHGC7kKKllpUX8/Scuy58D8dC0HN3Oeun2qruD73dcd/zvYvx05p FuEjLz1m+ng9SL8U07Q+NYY+XIH8vTNePkx5puAQxdhwXe+foWoX1QB8/xfEGG9PHHJG 0FQUJCbInLVrOAMNPezgtyBBt8Y2ehNK1J8pU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.165.148 with SMTP id e20mr1999688wel.29.1266990717116; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:51:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> From: Michael Cheselka Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:51:37 -0800 Message-ID: <3c6fb8811002232151h5ad534bar81bc4eabfbf4a0f4@mail.gmail.com> To: Brian Whitehead Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=18% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1O5q61c058981 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 05:52:07 -0000 Hello, HP Learning is good and free. O'Reilly has classes of varying costs. http://www.hp.com/united-states/hho/classes/ http://www.oreillyschool.com/ Regards, Michael Cheselka 650-488-4820 On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 20:59, Brian Whitehead wrote: > I used to think that the Sair/GNU Linux certification courses ( > http://www.linuxcertification.org/) were great years ago for distribution > independent training.  Unfortunately, some Thomson Prometric bought them out > and basically let them die.  They were offered at New Horizons and similar > locations.  According to their site, they still exist, but the curriculum > doesn't appear to have been updated in years. > > The Red Hat training is good, but obviously geared to their products.  The > overall Linux information still applies to Debian, with the exception of the > package manager and few other things. > > You might want to take a look at training classes for the CompTIA Linux+ or > the LPI certifications.  There should be companies that offer these in your > area.  Take the information as a starting point and build on it.  A lot of > times, the trainers of these classes aren't Linux gurus, just trainers > following a curriculum. > > Over the years I've read a lot of docs provided by this company that are > good.  They provide training and even cover the LPI cert.  ttp:// > www.gurulabs.com/linux-training/courses/ > > There are plenty of resources out there, you just have to do a little > searching.  Make sure you get some references on anything you're going to > pay money for though. > > -- Brian > > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Jason Antman wrote: > >> Yes, I know what you're all thinking from the subject, and I thought it >> too. >> >> I got an email from a colleague who is a long-time Windows admin and is >> currently managing a few admins and programmers. Though we didn't get >> into the details, I assume his department is mostly Windows. However, >> their web server farm (Debian-based boxes) is constantly growing, >> between more public-facing content and moving legacy apps to PHP-based >> web apps. They only have one Linux admin who's god on all of their web >> servers. Upper management has told him that he needs to get trained as a >> "LAMP Administrator", i.e. be ready to handle as much as he can if the >> linux admin is out or unavailable (or possibly gone??). >> >> I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, >> but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital >> into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. >> >> I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be >> picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training classes >> (at least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux administration, and even >> fewer for someone who's going to be entering a Debian environment. >> >> Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or >> online? >> >> Thanks, >> Jason Antman >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From hcoyote@ghostar.org Tue Feb 23 22:00:19 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O60JqC059338 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:00:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hcoyote@ghostar.org) Received: from mail-gx0-f220.google.com (mail-gx0-f220.google.com [209.85.217.220]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O60FPw002350 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:00:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by gxk20 with SMTP id 20so1549425gxk.18 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:00:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.127.25 with SMTP id z25mr1729489ybc.11.1266989400524; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:30:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:30:00 -0600 Message-ID: <3bdbc7111002232130o8903b27m9d23d66b31b3cce8@mail.gmail.com> From: Travis To: Brian Whitehead Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=12% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1O60JqC059338 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:00:20 -0000 On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:59 PM, Brian Whitehead wrote: > The Red Hat training is good, but obviously geared to their products.  The > overall Linux information still applies to Debian, with the exception of the > package manager and few other things. Canonical's Ubuntu training may be more directly applicable in this instance because of Ubuntu's close ties to Debian. http://www.ubuntu.com/training/ I've never tried it, so I don't know how good the courses are. Travis -- Travis Campbell hcoyote@ghostar.org From jack@coats.org Wed Feb 24 07:02:38 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1OF2cL2072398 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:02:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@coats.org) Received: from smarthost.csg.iadfw.net (smarthost.csg.iadfw.net [216.39.194.17]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1OF2Zoj027590 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:02:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [216.39.194.26] (helo=vsd.csg.iadfw.net) by smarthost.csg.iadfw.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NkIIn-0007Fg-AF for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:33:25 -0600 Received: (qmail 20976 invoked by uid 11429); 24 Feb 2010 08:33:25 -0600 Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com by vsd.csg.iadfw.net (envelope-from , uid 2020) with qmail-scanner-2.06st (perlscan: 2.06st. Clear:RC:0(209.85.160.169):. Processed in 0.015097 secs); 24 Feb 2010 14:33:25 -0000 Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com (209.85.160.169) by 216.39.195.133 with (RC4-MD5 encrypted) SMTP; 24 Feb 2010 08:33:25 -0600 Received: by gyd10 with SMTP id 10so617899gyd.28 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:33:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.81.5 with SMTP id e5mr85492ybb.158.1267022005140; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:33:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> From: "Jack@coats.org" Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:33:04 -0600 Message-ID: <48555fa41002240633i27764dfcv36fad4eca861ea69@mail.gmail.com> To: SAGE Members Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=46% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:02:39 -0000 Since your wife doesn't want to be a professional admin, you might consider a more informal approach. Find a good version of 'admin for dummies' or equivalent starter book, Get the equipment to put together a small lab (4 to 8 machines, of dumpster diving quality, but you can verify that it all works, just to keep her frustration down) Get her to go with you to a few local unix/linux user group meetings and find a mentor for her (i.e. not you!) that would agree to a few hands on sessions, providing some direction. Have her work with the mentor to define a course of study, and one or two 'end of course projects'. Just some thoughts that might help ... If you are up for a 'story', this is what I did to try to get my new wife to understand why being a programmer was so important to me... Not long after we got married, when I was a programmer before being an admin, I asked my new wife to write one program that would mean something to her. I thought her the basics of syntax, looping, and we chose BASIC, as it was the language of the neophytes of the day (mid-'80s). She wrote an address program. ... It started out to be just a list of names, addresses, and phone numbers. Then we figured out how to do I/O to disk. But to update it and to allow more names, etc, she made it use direct access files. Then she learned sorting and various techniques. Eventually to speed up the sort she updated it to do indexed sorts. ... Then we addressed methods of doing report writing, doing labels, etc, etc! .. In short, she turned into a pretty good programmer. It was more than I ever expected. I worked hard to not coax directions, but to give answers with multiple options as the results (how do you write a loop? index at top, at bottom, non-linear or defined index, that kind of thing). At least after we got past the first super basics of minimal logic and minimal language syntax. It worked well for us. She found it was fun and frustrating at the same time, and in the end she understood the allure and pull that programming had for me. A definite win-win situation. I hope you have similar positive results. From timetrap@gmail.com Wed Feb 24 07:04:19 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1OF4Jxg072443 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:04:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pv0-f169.google.com (mail-pv0-f169.google.com [74.125.83.169]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1OF4GYX027680 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by pvh11 with SMTP id 11so767415pvh.28 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:04:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=k9OsKI/lsv/4YdVIEV2wdN2LBs0MyIRZ/izgpMrHh1I=; b=qjU/+K7T1xGbeSB1hOZ8DqJbKW1At9sc4mcI6g1OcI4amwcSASS8cLVr6I0ecEFP6a khvHhxyCSI4dkLkA+9lBcg52bSoa2rwNPummJBoCO4rO/HOpmhcWKj1A/avjfKhqhaeY bhZ19F/V+KKMf8pA/RknO+BNXBWsEzpJ8BA04= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=efwe7NTNMWjIOUvwEuNqSO16mm7FEanaXBXohjOJWYJAjBzXGdZd0zwNgGk51Bcwv4 ozBLcvV0eFABLwotLcANWRxeLRfbgqhJ4dxu83J9WS6CurtQfoEXbOs6rqPV5Z9sO/4+ o39fkoMWoS3bmKSN+uC7QaehA3B9Bq7PnkaG8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.5.25 with SMTP id 25mr2353600wfe.268.1267023854183; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:04:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <33E85541-B256-45BC-A9EC-4F8E321616D0@ee.ryerson.ca> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> <33E85541-B256-45BC-A9EC-4F8E321616D0@ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:04:14 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ad4fc9930d5eedee Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: David Magda Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:04:19 -0000 > For a start, switch the primary desktop (either at work and/or at home) to Debian and start using it. Nothing learns you like having to use something day after day. Same here: I admin in a 99% Windows environment. I have a netbook with Windows 7 and a desktop running Arch Linux (or Ubuntu, whichever I feel like). An unexpected benefit from running Linux on the desktop: I have access to many security tools (like nmap) that are usually blocked at the enterprise level proxy. In my case running linux as a windows admin actually makes me more productive. On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 7:54 PM, David Magda wrote: > On Feb 23, 2010, at 17:11, Jason Antman wrote: > >> I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, >> but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital >> into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. > > Book learning gets you going, but you need to practice. For a start, switch > the primary desktop (either at work and/or at home) to Debian and start > using it. Nothing learns you like having to use something day after day. > > At $WORK I have a corporate laptop for Outlook and the enterprise ticketing > system, but have a Linux desktop for all my "real work": Solaris and Linux. > I have one screen connected to the Linux machine, and use a single keyboard > & mouse, and use Synergy to move focus between the two systems: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy%2B > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy_(software) > >> I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be >> picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training classes (at >> least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux administration, and even fewer >> for someone who's going to be entering a Debian environment. >> >> Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or >> online? > > > $WORK has a deal with Global Knowledge: I did an intro ITIL course that was > pretty informative and from what others have said they've had pleasant > experiences with the classes as well. They have a few Red Hat-based courses > that will be occurring in NYC: > > http://www.globalknowledge.com/training/category.asp?catid=400 > > I'm guessing RH033 and 131 would be where to start (in that order probably). > It's not Debian, but "Unix is Unix" to a large extent. Debian is more of a > community, so you don't have a centralized mechanism for developing training > programs and such. > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From richard.dakin@ccci.org Wed Feb 24 07:54:33 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1OFsWFF073877 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:54:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from richard.dakin@ccci.org) Received: from mx0a-000cec01.pphosted.com (mx0a-000cec01.pphosted.com [67.231.144.127]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1OFsUrd000349 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:54:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0000157 [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000cec01.pphosted.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with SMTP id o1OFp1uw002204; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:54:28 -0500 Received: from hart-edge2.ccci.org ([72.159.180.78]) by mx0a-000cec01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id m4y0pfmja-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:54:28 -0500 Received: from HART-E013V.net.ccci.org (10.10.11.4) by HART-EDGE2.ccci.org (172.16.1.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.393.1; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:54:26 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:53:04 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? Thread-Index: Acq01cKUeQ7RFNhyS3GU6RtDjmESUQAkLprQ References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> From: Richard Dakin To: Jason Antman , SAGE Members X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2010-02-24_10:2010-02-06, 2010-02-24, 2010-02-24 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1002240099 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1OFsWFF073877 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:54:33 -0000 "rapidly convert financial capital into experience" That comment made me chuckle. Closest I can come to a solution that meets that unrealistic criteria is send someone to training(test prep) bootcamp for 3 weeks in India. For less than $5k US your organization can get the right person RHCE cert. This includes airfare, food, and accommodations. Most of LAMP should be touched on. I am not sure about Debian. This link is an example and not an endorsement. http://www.netzoneindia.net -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Jason Antman Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:12 PM To: SAGE Members Subject: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? Yes, I know what you're all thinking from the subject, and I thought it too. I got an email from a colleague who is a long-time Windows admin and is currently managing a few admins and programmers. Though we didn't get into the details, I assume his department is mostly Windows. However, their web server farm (Debian-based boxes) is constantly growing, between more public-facing content and moving legacy apps to PHP-based web apps. They only have one Linux admin who's god on all of their web servers. Upper management has told him that he needs to get trained as a "LAMP Administrator", i.e. be ready to handle as much as he can if the linux admin is out or unavailable (or possibly gone??). I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training classes (at least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux administration, and even fewer for someone who's going to be entering a Debian environment. Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or online? Thanks, Jason Antman _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From mike.diehn@gmail.com Wed Feb 24 08:24:19 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1OGOJuk074565 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:24:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike.diehn@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.144]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1OGOG90001523 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so740436qwf.22 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:24:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; bh=dWBj0bG8reGzbHeGyvpd7Oyt7go5L8jPiNYyI+kL6Bs=; b=ly8ocWq6cMIuROPplpVeojCy3maqCCfaJtRBSUI6TDXXxshnU5+4MvGoz1XJ8DdbTC 0VU5I9smX1gkvjDSxWF8WucQsaLYufwyjtOmScM1AJIv+w3x+pIRoTwMeJJrJRCzeu12 inIVKy0YH6q9WR5P8teirbWu4DM0ay4ZyYyAI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=Aav7g44xRwLd0Ht+1emChmHWrU+1Vl0tvUPLvXzprJklHT0Vy4c8yByCiTPipGLmk1 TjLuBTGBSZb6AGqVvYwz+QbFHqVAleJXil5QBy983mZTv1rVK8qFI0E5TiEKZxkjfSoA KbvLi97+kewKabITSgCZxQgDkaGSk6KAHazJs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mike.diehn@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.123.196 with SMTP id q4mr32233qar.117.1267028654307; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:24:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> From: Mike Diehn Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:23:54 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7db5d890c12e269a Message-ID: <2a03c5ff1002240823i4c21a774obcc63374966a80f6@mail.gmail.com> To: Richard Dakin X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:24:19 -0000 I award you First Prize in the creative thinking category. :-) On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:53 AM, Richard Dakin wrote: > "rapidly convert financial capital into experience" That comment made me > chuckle. > > Closest I can come to a solution that meets that unrealistic criteria is > send someone to training(test prep) bootcamp for 3 weeks in India. For > less than $5k US your organization can get the right person RHCE cert. > This includes airfare, food, and accommodations. Most of LAMP should be > touched on. I am not sure about Debian. > This link is an example and not an endorsement. > http://www.netzoneindia.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org > [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Jason Antman > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:12 PM > To: SAGE Members > Subject: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? > > Yes, I know what you're all thinking from the subject, and I thought it > too. > > I got an email from a colleague who is a long-time Windows admin and is > currently managing a few admins and programmers. Though we didn't get > into the details, I assume his department is mostly Windows. However, > their web server farm (Debian-based boxes) is constantly growing, > between more public-facing content and moving legacy apps to PHP-based > web apps. They only have one Linux admin who's god on all of their web > servers. Upper management has told him that he needs to get trained as a > "LAMP Administrator", i.e. be ready to handle as much as he can if the > linux admin is out or unavailable (or possibly gone??). > > I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, > but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital > into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. > > I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be > picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training classes > (at least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux administration, and even > fewer for someone who's going to be entering a Debian environment. > > Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or > online? > > Thanks, > Jason Antman > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- Mike Diehn Diehn Consulting, LLC mike.diehn@gmail.com From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Wed Feb 24 08:37:02 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1OGb2aL074901 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:37:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1OGax2t002024 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:37:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o1OGapHe018100 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:36:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B8555A3.3080703@bio.umass.edu> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:36:51 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Antman References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> In-Reply-To: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:36:58 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:37:03 -0000 Jason Antman wrote: > Yes, I know what you're all thinking from the subject, and I thought it > too. > > I got an email from a colleague who is a long-time Windows admin and is > currently managing a few admins and programmers. Though we didn't get > into the details, I assume his department is mostly Windows. However, > their web server farm (Debian-based boxes) is constantly growing, > between more public-facing content and moving legacy apps to PHP-based > web apps. They only have one Linux admin who's god on all of their web > servers. Upper management has told him that he needs to get trained as a > "LAMP Administrator", i.e. be ready to handle as much as he can if the > linux admin is out or unavailable (or possibly gone??). > > I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, > but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital > into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. > > I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be > picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training classes > (at least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux administration, and even > fewer for someone who's going to be entering a Debian environment. > > Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or online? If they wanna blow da dough . . . http://www.learningtree.com/courses/144.htm When I had to learn Unix/Solaris years ago, my employer sent me to 6 courses over 2 years at Learning Tree. They are hands on 4-5 day courses starting with introduction to Unix and continuing with Unix server administration, Unix security, Unix tools, etc. Classroom full of computers, 2 people to a computer, dual boot Linux/Solaris, you choose. While it may not be Debian, they cover the history and relationship of the variants of Unix and talk about the differences. It gives a good foundation of knowledge that can be adapted and applied. Instructors are typically industry experts/consultants who teach at Learning Tree as one of their gigs. I had good experience with them. The class days are broken into multiple segments of lecture followed by exercise/assignments, and you can do a fair bit of guided exploration during those hands on phases, going at your own pace. It's the hands on that really cements it. You also come away with good reference materials. -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Wed Feb 24 09:27:12 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1OHRBwa076293 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:27:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1OHR8gg003789 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:27:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o1OHR6du022508 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:27:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B85616A.2090503@bio.umass.edu> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:27:06 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Kern References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> <33E85541-B256-45BC-A9EC-4F8E321616D0@ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:27:07 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:27:12 -0000 Joseph Kern wrote: >> For a start, switch the primary desktop (either at work and/or at home) to Debian and start using it. Nothing learns you like having to use something day after day. >> > > Same here: I admin in a 99% Windows environment. I have a netbook with > Windows 7 and a desktop running Arch Linux (or Ubuntu, whichever I > feel like). > > An unexpected benefit from running Linux on the desktop: I have access > to many security tools (like nmap) that are usually blocked at the > enterprise level proxy. In my case running linux as a windows admin > actually makes me more productive. That's funny. I spent some time as a Windows/Novell admin some years ago, and I had a Mac desktop. That made me more productive. ;-) -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From jason@jasonantman.com Wed Feb 24 11:44:13 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1OJiDmd079655 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:44:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jason@jasonantman.com) Received: from mailmaster.jasonantman.com (web2.jasonantman.com [96.57.180.134]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1OJiA1e007287 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:44:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.43.136] (nat02-hill-ext.rutgers.edu [204.52.215.2]) by mailmaster.jasonantman.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A42F08D3D for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:35:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B858189.1030608@jasonantman.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:44:09 -0500 From: Jason Antman User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070801) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Mailing List References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> <1266971087.3557.126.camel@shamet> In-Reply-To: <1266971087.3557.126.camel@shamet> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 OpenPGP: url=http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x34EE2F92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 19:44:13 -0000 Thanks to all who have provided their input, I've passed it along to my colleague. I knew from the outset that most responses would take this form. And that was my first advice to him, as it's how I (and everyone I work with) learned. I'm under no delusion that sitting in a classroom is a replacement for actual experience. However, from as much as I know, the situation is this: 1) He works for a state higher educational institution. Obviously, there's a definite bias towards formal classes. 2) He doesn't work in an IT related department. He's the head IT guy for an academic department. Even more of a bias, and *much* less understanding of the value of self-teaching. 3) I don't know if they're having problems with their current Linux admin, or they think he might leave, or what, but it seems like they just want a continuity plan to keep the servers running, want some sort of CYA certificate or PO that says someone received the training, and don't have the budget to hire another admin (or my colleague doesn't want to suggest a consultant). -Jason Jon 'maddog' Hall wrote: > It is too bad the management can't understand "self study" > > ( "i.e. they want something they can cut a check for" ) > > The management probably would be unimpressed to know that I taught > myself how to program through a Western Electric correspondence course > in 1969 ("How to Program the IBM 1130 in FORTRAN"), or that I taught > myself how to program in assembly language through reading some DEC > "Pocketbooks" given to me by my DEC salesman. Or that I took a job > programming in IBM's BAL after only reading a book on it. > > (sigh) > > md > > From treed@copilotco.com Wed Feb 24 12:03:10 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1OK3Arb080035 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:03:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1OK37Xr007708 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:03:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id AD40964C6B; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:03:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: Tracy Reed Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:03:28 -0800 Resent-Message-ID: <20100224200328.GR22103@tracyreed.org> Resent-To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:59:38 -0800 From: Tracy Reed To: "Jack@coats.org" Message-ID: <20100224195938.GQ22103@tracyreed.org> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> <48555fa41002240633i27764dfcv36fad4eca861ea69@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xYeFQzU4VZLrHqxU" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48555fa41002240633i27764dfcv36fad4eca861ea69@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:03:11 -0000 --xYeFQzU4VZLrHqxU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 08:33:04AM -0600, Jack@coats.org spake thusly: > Find a good version of 'admin for dummies' or equivalent starter book, She has made it clear that she is more of a lecture/hands on learner than a book learner. I have never taken a single minute of formal Linux training, all self taught. I do read a lot of books. She sees me reading TPOSANA "just for fun" and wonders what the heck my problem is. > Get her to go with you to a few local unix/linux user group meetings and > find a mentor for her (i.e. not you!) that would agree to a few hands on > sessions, providing some direction. She has gone with me before. Too smelly. Oftentimes I agree with her. Our group is rather odd consisting of mostly retirees and 10 year Linux newbies. And then there is a small handful of professionals who are quite busy. My wife is just a person who needs structure to learn. Because of this I don't hold out too much hope for her ever becoming a guru or "hacker" but I don't want to eliminate the possibility for her to surprise me. She may just need the right introduction. > Just some thoughts that might help ... If you are up for a 'story', this > is what I did to try to get my new wife to understand why being a program= mer > was so important to me... Nice story. I can only hope to be so lucky! --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --xYeFQzU4VZLrHqxU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLhYUq9PIYKZYVAq0RAoLVAJ9WFu8lBusNfCdnOFV5XheNmW8j6wCeLl2a QjwKad5w/k4DcDxo16fsSxI= =A1W0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xYeFQzU4VZLrHqxU-- From joel.merrick@gmail.com Wed Feb 24 15:21:20 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1ONLKNu088000 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:21:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joel.merrick@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f220.google.com (mail-fx0-f220.google.com [209.85.220.220]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1ONLGxt011689 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:21:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm20 with SMTP id 20so5279563fxm.12 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:21:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=1p3S5cDUXRDdfFQeu+sJfSavFQAihH/ZHgL//qwqI7o=; b=DVGchEnljfdtVSPdH4UO8NFlx9tSsXus1xHkMZiKA9QY+9qyDsxX4phoBJNdak1v3A 2lIiNVDtNCEzof5tVoxzyg/J6Xr2jo4qwqsf0ODQPMGDt1aS0GUO1r4vQmd2cmt9x1Z0 8CsNnapcyEa14GDLboKe+RecaFg0kBTPFEcxE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=PAoEwznl1ey9gvcwGvfXSM8tVfF7wHLuOkWM+bzGqmdvTEpaItBoTbmWj2f1t2m45F 1XS2FKimvYXsZsXpWTo/gChVooTRv17vJ/x/KFhEucrgerxMAt7lm0ArU5EY/qr3M8kz /b+8BvyNM+ENyOGLX9pzGrHjc/U60QV0WdQGA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.187.209 with SMTP id m17mr42450hbh.148.1267053671141; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:21:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:21:11 +0000 Message-ID: <543a57a81002241521p4a1b858ch44f27a843cfd83db@mail.gmail.com> From: Joel Merrick To: Rus Foster Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:21:21 -0000 On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 7:00 PM, Rus Foster wrote: > Is there anything else it would be worth me experimenting with to get > myself back up to speed / other fun edgy things? > OpenQRM released some great documentation today. Worthwhile taking a look at.. http://www.openqrm-enterprise.com/news/details/article/in-depth-documentation-of-openqrm-available.html Joel -- $ echo "kpfmAdpoofdufevq/dp/vl" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1)-1)/ge' From sage@richfox.org Thu Feb 25 12:54:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1PKs8T7020880 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:54:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sage@richfox.org) Received: from foxengines.net (foxengines.net [69.5.8.162]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id o1PKs4td025498 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:54:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 11461 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2010 20:46:42 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; h=X-Originating-IP:Date:From:X-X-Sender:Reply-To:To:Subject:Message-ID:User-Agent:MIME-Version:Content-Type; s=default; d=richfox.org; b=Ivt7vjA2Qs1sV20XZxHVIZgiV6tdrLxbKJmfDZVsGqcFc1FK86KXMpjgc8NLntZzYYR+Y4zeiIVA0EvX4a1ryIEZQY20oESW8XHc/MleG5HmMv7HHL7802aOmtCxggcWfRW0vFTwYIRNvRfa/KkzquiYsrRBRDtkRgZOutyqFzY=; X-Originating-IP: [75.67.163.179] Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:46:41 -0500 (EST) From: sage@richfox.org X-X-Sender: rfox@powerbook.localdomain To: sage-members@sage.org Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 1.00 (OSX 882 2007-12-20) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: [SAGE] Opinions/Experiences on Overland for Tape Libraries? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: sage@richfox.org List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:54:09 -0000 Hi, I am considering acquiring an Overland NEO 2000e dual LTO4 library for backing up a 11 terabyte and growing filesystem and I'm kind of concerned that they come in so cheap. This might be a blessing if it's reliable and good because this is an academic budget. Does anyone have positive or negative experiences with this product and/or company? Thanks, Rich. -- From joseph.noonan@rigaku.com Thu Feb 25 14:17:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1PMHiS6023133 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:17:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.noonan@rigaku.com) Received: from smtp.msc.com (smtp.msc.com [12.96.21.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1PMHenN027010 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:17:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from pcjfn.msc.com (pcjfn.msc.com [192.246.38.111]) by smtp.msc.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o1PLsFQS081269 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:54:15 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from joseph.noonan@rigaku.com) Received: from pcjfn.msc.com (localhost.msc.com [127.0.0.1]) by pcjfn.msc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1PLsFZF034061 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:54:15 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from joseph.noonan@rigaku.com) Received: from localhost (jfn@localhost) by pcjfn.msc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id o1PLsFQT034058 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:54:15 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from joseph.noonan@rigaku.com) X-Authentication-Warning: pcjfn.msc.com: jfn owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:54:14 -0600 (CST) From: Joseph Noonan X-X-Sender: jfn@pcjfn.msc.com To: SAGE mailing list In-Reply-To: <1266032243.17393.23.camel@pbc.crawford.emu.id.au> Message-ID: <20100225154058.W47600@pcjfn.msc.com> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <257bbce41002121017h636d4703p57b4e666131ecd39@mail.gmail.com> <1266032243.17393.23.camel@pbc.crawford.emu.id.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: undef - relay 192.246.38.111 marked with SkipSpamScan X-CanIt-Geo: ip=192.246.38.111; country=US; region=TX; city=Spring; postalcode=77381; latitude=30.1766; longitude=-95.5101; metrocode=618; areacode=281; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=30.1766,-95.5101&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Canit-Stats-ID: Bayes signature not available X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 12.96.21.5 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:17:44 -0000 On Sat, 13 Feb 2010 at 2:37pm Frank Crawford wrote: > > IPv6 has been well designed from a network engineering perspective, Really, in what way has it been well designed? From all I can tell, it is a steaming pile of dung. Everything that might have once been new and innovative (e.g. IPsec), is already available in v4. What's left? Big addresses -- whee! Not exactly the eighth wonder of the world. I consider it a cardinal rule of engineering design that the new version be able to do *at least* the stuff the old version did and do it properly (not necessarily the same way, but properly). One big failure if IPv6 on this point is BGP/multihoming. Until this is fixed, it's not even worth considering for deployment in my world. -- Joseph F. Noonan > > Frank > ______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> > > -- > ac3 > Suite G16, Bay 7, Locomotive Workshop Phone: 02 9209 4600 > Australian Technology Park Fax: 02 9209 4611 > Eveleigh NSW 1430 > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From prvs=0672eb9da0=phil.pennock@globnix.org Thu Feb 25 15:07:30 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1PN7TRT024355 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:07:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from prvs=0672eb9da0=phil.pennock@globnix.org) Received: from mx.spodhuis.org (redoubt.spodhuis.org [94.142.241.89]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1PN7PFT028124 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:07:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=globnix.org; s=d200912; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=dLh+EYa6aVA1hRozOSsXDsXKGquhETYDJwzofp9IHV8=; b=uq3K07q67oqbaVlEnY0+en0uw/I4h6m41UTiTMLdeZTOvaXX5A62lz+3W37jdMe7a0PRNmOFgyuYulsZp7L756ql3CStjlXeBeiV4tD+ulJA9TtwpoYJdvepHdHEGQyePNNkLJStegIBiqkVjqBybOwWK84rZmhnXSqQr3wvJao=; Received: by smtp.spodhuis.org with local id 1Nkmnj-000KME-5p; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:07:23 +0000 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:07:23 -0800 From: Phil Pennock To: Joseph Noonan Message-ID: <20100225230723.GA77983@redoubt.spodhuis.org> Mail-Followup-To: Joseph Noonan , SAGE mailing list References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <257bbce41002121017h636d4703p57b4e666131ecd39@mail.gmail.com> <1266032243.17393.23.camel@pbc.crawford.emu.id.au> <20100225154058.W47600@pcjfn.msc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100225154058.W47600@pcjfn.msc.com> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:07:30 -0000 On 2010-02-25 at 15:54 -0600, Joseph Noonan wrote: > On Sat, 13 Feb 2010 at 2:37pm Frank Crawford wrote: > > IPv6 has been well designed from a network engineering perspective, > > > Really, in what way has it been well designed? From all I can tell, it > is a steaming pile of dung. Everything that might have once been new > and innovative (e.g. IPsec), is already available in v4. What's left? > Big addresses -- whee! Not exactly the eighth wonder of the world. To rephrase, you claim "It sucks, because we've already backported all the stuff we liked, therefore it is all a steaming pile of dung." ? > I consider it a cardinal rule of engineering design that the new version > be able to do *at least* the stuff the old version did and do it > properly (not necessarily the same way, but properly). One big failure > if IPv6 on this point is BGP/multihoming. Until this is fixed, it's not > even worth considering for deployment in my world. IPv6 has exactly the same level of support for multi-homing that IPv4 does. Pretty much none natively, some crude hacks with BGP possible. Same crude hacks work for both, but you hit the social barrier sooner in IPv6 because nobody has had enough clout to change things there yet, as things changed in IPv4. There's the ability to advertise a smallish route and use some wet finger in air guesstimates as to what will be large enough that the route will be accepted. This happened in IPv4, led to "use a /24 for multi-homing" and so made the address-space exhaustion problem worse, as people needing 3 addresses suddenly used a /24 as their bare minimum. In the early days, using a /24 didn't work so well as major carriers were unwilling to propagate such routes. These days, they've all pretty much conceded, albeit very grudgingly in some cases. IPv6 is merely at an earlier stage in the same process, but with more fear because of the vastly increased count of possible routes. The idea of having to carry arbitrary /48 advertisements scares people, just as carrying /24 from "swamp space" scared people. And with current router memories, those fears are currently justified, just as they were 12 years ago for IPv4. Various people are looking into finding some kind of alternative to avoid routing table explosion, but in the worst case you have the exact same proven technology to deal with it that IPv4 does. The problem is the same social problem that it was last time, getting the routes advertisements accepted. Ultimately, as soon as you want your routes out of more than one pipe, you need those routes to propagate. Either you move the single point of failure somewhere else, or every other system needs to be able to know of the two possible routes. Yet every other system speaks BGP already and anything which introduces a second sometimes-used routing table adds complexity, slow-paths and that way lies wasting much money. So, realistically you can: * advertise routes small enough (or inflate your address-space to be large enough) and grow the global routing table * accept a higher latency by having a third party announce address-space in a multi-homed manner, and that third party knows of more-specifics, via some kind of arrangement with your existing ISPs. Such third parties might end up present in all the major carrier hotels, to keep the added latency low, and they'd be responsible for sharing routes amongst their nodes to avoid single points of failure I'm skeptical that anything else will fly. So, when will IPv6 multi-homing become acceptable, with network operators *having* to spend? When customers can't reach their websites because the network operator doesn't have the routes and the websites and customers both complain, via press and lawyers. Anti-competitive filtering of routes which is prejudicially favouring large websites will not go down well. -Phil From joseph.noonan@rigaku.com Fri Feb 26 08:51:02 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QGp2cC050300 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 08:51:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.noonan@rigaku.com) Received: from smtp.msc.com (smtp.msc.com [12.96.21.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QGow2i000793 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 08:51:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from pcjfn.msc.com (pcjfn.msc.com [192.246.38.111]) by smtp.msc.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o1QGovV9066749 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:50:57 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from joseph.noonan@rigaku.com) Received: from pcjfn.msc.com (localhost.msc.com [127.0.0.1]) by pcjfn.msc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1QGovB5043008 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:50:57 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from joseph.noonan@rigaku.com) Received: from localhost (jfn@localhost) by pcjfn.msc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id o1QGouHA043005 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:50:57 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from joseph.noonan@rigaku.com) X-Authentication-Warning: pcjfn.msc.com: jfn owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:50:56 -0600 (CST) From: Joseph Noonan X-X-Sender: jfn@pcjfn.msc.com To: SAGE mailing list In-Reply-To: <20100225230723.GA77983@redoubt.spodhuis.org> Message-ID: <20100226093747.K47600@pcjfn.msc.com> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <257bbce41002121017h636d4703p57b4e666131ecd39@mail.gmail.com> <1266032243.17393.23.camel@pbc.crawford.emu.id.au> <20100225154058.W47600@pcjfn.msc.com> <20100225230723.GA77983@redoubt.spodhuis.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: undef - relay 192.246.38.111 marked with SkipSpamScan X-CanIt-Geo: ip=192.246.38.111; country=US; region=TX; city=Spring; postalcode=77381; latitude=30.1766; longitude=-95.5101; metrocode=618; areacode=281; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=30.1766,-95.5101&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Canit-Stats-ID: Bayes signature not available X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 12.96.21.5 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:51:02 -0000 On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 at 3:07pm Phil Pennock wrote: > On 2010-02-25 at 15:54 -0600, Joseph Noonan wrote: >> On Sat, 13 Feb 2010 at 2:37pm Frank Crawford wrote: >>> IPv6 has been well designed from a network engineering perspective, >> >> >> Really, in what way has it been well designed? From all I can tell, it >> is a steaming pile of dung. Everything that might have once been new >> and innovative (e.g. IPsec), is already available in v4. What's left? >> Big addresses -- whee! Not exactly the eighth wonder of the world. > > To rephrase, you claim "It sucks, because we've already backported all > the stuff we liked, therefore it is all a steaming pile of dung." ? No. I quoted one line of the OP's text, the line that made the claim that "IPv6 has been well designed from a network engineering perspective" and I asked for support for what I think is a silly assertion. In spite of the number of electrons spilled below, I still don't have any evidence for the above claim. Look, you can say that we should all hurry up and adopt IPv6 because IPv4 is running out and you have a defensible position. I may agree or not with it, but reasonable and knowledgeable people can disagree. But for all the time, naval gazing, and hand wringing that went into coming up with IPv6, it is a pretty pathetic leap forward (more like a staggering lurch) and to claim it "well engineered" should leave engineers everywhere giggling or indignant. Yes, I am aware that "social barriers" (address portability, minimum routable prefix size) are part of what I am complaining about, but those barriers are there because the protocol punts these decisions rather than engineers them. This is what I call a major failure of the protocol: the loc/ID split hasn't been made and so we are going to keep building bigger routers to accommodate bigger tables because multihoming isn't going away (and is not going to be limited to organizations that are going to assign addresses to 200 or more other orgs.) What year was CIDR addressing imposed to 'fix' the routing table size problem? Hmmm, and a complete rewrite of IP still left that fundamental problem unsolved. Well engineered indeed. So what do you think is so cool about v6? 128 bit addresses? That is truly the only thing I see driving it at all and that's a pretty tame "feature". v6 is a monument to missed opportunities to get things really right. -- Joseph F. 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(Stolen from http://mailformat.dan.info/trailers/disclaimers.html) From philiph@pobox.com Fri Feb 26 11:40:54 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QJesc7054433 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:40:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from philiph@pobox.com) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QJepU4006319 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:40:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.internal [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C635E2223 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:35:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from web5.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.214]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:35:35 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=message-id:from:to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:subject:date; s=smtpout; bh=6BegMccdV+2P1oRvdzxYX0hVp3M=; b=YLMdzkX3kjOcc+xVlBa4o86x3gO9y4bhXVOPGnNteyFh36ErUDB8D8uUfritqGgpZQe0x/qGKV0oqzj0O6f/UxOPyeUDMTyM3bhYTywWTt1L/Kio7leU8v4pUhtKODVZwyYiYMkHNBvIG+N5mqeIoSw4Yp+XWUfFAQ59y26Vy4A= Received: by web5.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 7D51F15989C; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:35:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1267212935.14827.1362096331@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: w/LVECo/KKXThNx8KA1dqLFnNranKN0ct6dupfIg/x4l 1267212935 From: "Philip J. Hollenback" To: "SAGE Members" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:35 -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: [SAGE] Review Board / Subversion integration? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:40:55 -0000 I'm starting to use Review Board (www.reviewboard.org) for code review. Seems good so far. However, I would really like to enforce code review before subversion checkin, for a subset of projects. In particular we keep some production config information in subversion, and I don't ever want anyone to change those files without enforced code review. I did some googling and didn't really find anything definitive. Does anyone on this list have any ideas for how to do this? Specifically, I'd like subversion checkins to fail unless an approved code review exists for the change, similar to how you can make checkins fail if an open bug isn't listed in the changelog. An automated method is desirable because I'm part of a large, geographically separated team, and it can be hard to ensure everyone is trained about the proper procedure. Thanks, P. -- Philip J. Hollenback philiph@pobox.com www.hollenback.net From john@stoffel.org Fri Feb 26 13:52:12 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QLqBjf058298 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:52:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@stoffel.org) Received: from mycroft.westnet.com (Mycroft.westnet.com [216.187.52.7]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QLq8Hc009100 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:52:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from jfsnew.stoffel.org (97-95-180-151.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com [97.95.180.151]) (authenticated bits=0) by mycroft.westnet.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1QLhRr5001775 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:43:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by jfsnew.stoffel.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 504855369C; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:43:27 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:43:27 -0500 From: "John Stoffel" To: sage-members@usenix.org X-Mailer: VM 8.0.9 under Emacs 22.3.1 (i486-pc-linux-gnu) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at mycroft X-Virus-Status: Clean X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:52:12 -0000 Hi Guys, We're looking around for anyone's methodology for testing the performance of VNC connection for both latency and performance. Most of my users don't care, but a vocal subset wants to NOT use VNC at all for remote work. So we're looking for ways to repeatably test a VNC connection for performance under various metrics, in an objective and repeatable way. We're an EDA shop, so tools for doing Layout drive the issue. Some thoughts I've had are: - x11perf, but it's Black & White only, and won't compile on Solaris 5.8 due to missing Xrender.h include file. I'm still poking at this, but I'm not hopeful. - Xmark, but it's just an x11perf summarizer, so it doesn't help much. - run the tcl/tk test suite, which pops up bunches of windows as I recall. - run the ImageMagick test suite, does the same thing, as I recall. - Try to take of our existing EDA tools and script it using some tool, either internal to the tool itself, or something like expect. We're currently using RealVNC 4.1.2/3 as our Xvnc servers on Solaris 5.8 and RHEL3/4/5 systems. I'm starting to look at deploying FreeNX as well. Some other options could be TurboVNC and TigerVNC as the server side software due to their supposedly better compression libraries. Thanks, John From doug@will.to Fri Feb 26 14:15:24 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QMFO9Q058974 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:15:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QMFKGI009456 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:15:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.52] (h-68-164-136-126.nycmny83.static.covad.net [68.164.136.126]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id o1QMFGPh025243 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:15:17 -0500 Message-ID: <4B8847FB.9030606@will.to> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:15:23 -0500 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Stoffel References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> In-Reply-To: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:15:18 -0500 (EST) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 22:15:24 -0000 John Stoffel wrote: > Hi Guys, > > We're looking around for anyone's methodology for testing the > performance of VNC connection for both latency and performance. > Most of my users don't care, but a vocal subset wants to NOT use VNC > at all for remote work. > > So we're looking for ways to repeatably test a VNC connection for > performance under various metrics, in an objective and repeatable way. > We're an EDA shop, so tools for doing Layout drive the issue. > > Some thoughts I've had are: > > - x11perf, but it's Black & White only, and won't compile on > Solaris 5.8 due to missing Xrender.h include file. I'm still > poking at this, but I'm not hopeful. > > - Xmark, but it's just an x11perf summarizer, so it doesn't help > much. > > - run the tcl/tk test suite, which pops up bunches of windows as > I recall. > > - run the ImageMagick test suite, does the same thing, as I recall. > > - Try to take of our existing EDA tools and script it using some > tool, either internal to the tool itself, or something like > expect. > > We're currently using RealVNC 4.1.2/3 as our Xvnc servers on Solaris > 5.8 and RHEL3/4/5 systems. I'm starting to look at deploying FreeNX > as well. Some other options could be TurboVNC and TigerVNC as the > server side software due to their supposedly better compression > libraries. > > Thanks, > John > > _______________________________________________ > So, this isn't a direct answer to your question, but you should REALLY look at TurboVNC. If you're doing CAD, I presume 3d is involved? including model rotation? If you have any sort of latency for this, TurboVNC is a big win. If you don't (you don't say), then perhaps not so much but some of the compression may still be of value. It trades off the slowness of VNC without 3d acceleration for 3d acceleration on a GL enabled server and 2d graphics compression while using more network bandwidth. We have people who find it usable for 3d molecular modeling over a 10msec link. It's orders of magnitude better than plain vnc, which is quite unusable for such tasks. From bwhitehd@gmail.com Fri Feb 26 14:36:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QMairh059590 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:36:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bwhitehd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com (mail-vw0-f41.google.com [209.85.212.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QMaetp009767 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:36:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws2 with SMTP id 2so220540vws.28 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:36:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=4+CN31OmTBtw+DVIOSK+LXaBJoJm9HU73LyjyRo2Zn0=; b=mIFa4FCY/5G2rkPztVETvgYyz26Z3YSTrZx6pqN+Os7JLiH08gG2odFMZkABB6VsF5 z0foFd+2c/hadrVXM53KdnwWBi2lA2YECytzG2OP95/8jWE9Kwtz0mY6tYYqsUWmNzeM HK7fUSrAJTzX0GIn0SKzOx1FCAMYLQ7EfShAQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=oIDR2DswfpTayJMZK4nIsKV9MNwkwYkptOoJAdTP4xITwGkJOYZY/muBDOI3N28u0Y lCokuii9Qc589a6KseH61X/adZcYwBHmEZzR6c25T+Bde4z32T1+vea6KpudNmQaLqDX 2QPmJqQ+bFQm2PhWOiZ1ABtEGzINxd7KU+x+8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.121.227 with SMTP id i35mr702661vcr.149.1267223795144; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:36:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> From: Brian Whitehead Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:36:15 -0600 Message-ID: To: John Stoffel X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=1% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 22:36:44 -0000 I was previously involved in a very large deployment and testing of VNC. We used RealVNC Enterprise and RealVNC Session Manager with a lot of custom code for checking and starting sessions across several hosts in a "farm". We had many users that preferred Linux, so they used VNC and the Solaris users used Citrix Presentation Server for UNIX 4.0. Each of these handles the graphics a little differently. (sending only changed bits vs. sending everything within a specific size transfer) We used a couple of things for testing latency and performance. One thing that worked very well was actually created by one of our EDA vendors. It's been over a year and I'm no longer with that company, so I'll need to go back and look at some old data. Essentially, the application was a script that the remote user would launch that would run a small video, time it and then prompt them to rate a few things. It would record how long it took to play the file, the user would rate whether it played smoothly or was choppy, etc.. The results were then recorded in a database. At any time, you could look at this data and determine if the data is consistent at a location. The video should take a specific amount of time, so if a different time is record, then there is an obvious latency. It's a little more complex than what I've explained, but that's the general idea. We saw several issues with different EDA applications (Cadence, Matlab, etc..). Most of the time they were on the Citrix side and we had to work with the vendors to get a fix. I hope this gives you an idea. If you need more information, let me know. It may take some time to dig it up again though. Regards, Brian On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:43 PM, John Stoffel wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > We're looking around for anyone's methodology for testing the > performance of VNC connection for both latency and performance. > Most of my users don't care, but a vocal subset wants to NOT use VNC > at all for remote work. > > So we're looking for ways to repeatably test a VNC connection for > performance under various metrics, in an objective and repeatable way. > We're an EDA shop, so tools for doing Layout drive the issue. > > Some thoughts I've had are: > > - x11perf, but it's Black & White only, and won't compile on > Solaris 5.8 due to missing Xrender.h include file. I'm still > poking at this, but I'm not hopeful. > > - Xmark, but it's just an x11perf summarizer, so it doesn't help > much. > > - run the tcl/tk test suite, which pops up bunches of windows as > I recall. > > - run the ImageMagick test suite, does the same thing, as I recall. > > - Try to take of our existing EDA tools and script it using some > tool, either internal to the tool itself, or something like > expect. > > We're currently using RealVNC 4.1.2/3 as our Xvnc servers on Solaris > 5.8 and RHEL3/4/5 systems. I'm starting to look at deploying FreeNX > as well. Some other options could be TurboVNC and TigerVNC as the > server side software due to their supposedly better compression > libraries. > > Thanks, > John > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From cmc@math.hmc.edu Fri Feb 26 14:49:15 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QMnF0W059936 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:49:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmc@math.hmc.edu) Received: from esme.math.hmc.edu (esme.Math.HMC.Edu [134.173.34.194]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QMnCaQ010099 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:49:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from vosill.math.hmc.edu (vosill.math.hmc.edu [134.173.34.88]) by esme.math.hmc.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o1QMIdnt017295 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:18:39 -0800 Received: from vosill.math.hmc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vosill.math.hmc.edu (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o1QMId4l027504; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:18:39 -0800 From: "C.M. Connelly" Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Department of Mathematics To: "Philip J. Hollenback" In-reply-to: <1267212935.14827.1362096331@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1267212935.14827.1362096331@webmail.messagingengine.com> Comments: In-reply-to message from "Philip J. Hollenback" dated "Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:35 -0800." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3; GNU Emacs 22.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:18:39 -0800 Message-ID: <27503.1267222719@vosill.math.hmc.edu> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Review Board / Subversion integration? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: "C.M. Connelly" List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 22:49:15 -0000 --=-=-= "PJH" == Philip J Hollenback PJH> I did some googling and didn't really find anything PJH> definitive. Does anyone on this list have any ideas for PJH> how to do this? Specifically, I'd like subversion PJH> checkins to fail unless an approved code review exists PJH> for the change, similar to how you can make checkins fail PJH> if an open bug isn't listed in the changelog. Subversion supports hook scripts (which live in the hooks directory in the repository). If your process can be automated then you can use the hook scripts to allow or deny checkins. The basic set of scripts is start-commit.tmpl pre-commit.tmpl post-commit.tmpl pre-revprop-change.tmpl post-revprop-change.tmpl pre-lock.tmpl post-lock.tmpl pre-unlock.tmpl post-unlock.tmpl I'm not sure if you can add additional hooks, but what you're describing sounds like it might doable with the default set of hooks. See http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-11-2008/jw-11-checkstyle2.html?page=4 for an example of automated code review of Java code with a Subversion repo. Claire *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Claire Connelly cmc@math.hmc.edu System Administrator (909) 621-8754 Department of Mathematics Harvey Mudd College *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLiEi+B0pE8d7vd8wRAjBlAJ42yHoHawIdudsxhgZHlbk4gYfE7ACfQQMF aAhq3E3ydfL6Df8eioc2nsM= =0CcT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From allbery@ece.cmu.edu Fri Feb 26 15:00:24 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QN0OEm060215 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:00:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu (BACHE.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.129.23]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QN0L8H010316 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:00:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mress.kf8nh.com (static-72-77-17-40.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net [72.77.17.40]) (Authenticated sender: allbery@ECE.CMU.EDU) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 288C2B0; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:00:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <87CD701A-E75A-4DB1-932B-F789ABE5582B@ece.cmu.edu> From: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" To: "John Stoffel" In-Reply-To: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-66--992292242" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:00:00 -0500 References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.0 (v56) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:00:24 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-66--992292242 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Feb 26, 2010, at 16:43 , John Stoffel wrote: > - x11perf, but it's Black & White only, and won't compile on > Solaris 5.8 due to missing Xrender.h include file. I'm still > poking at this, but I'm not hopeful. > > - Xmark, but it's just an x11perf summarizer, so it doesn't help > much. > > - run the tcl/tk test suite, which pops up bunches of windows as > I recall. > > - run the ImageMagick test suite, does the same thing, as I > recall. > > - Try to take of our existing EDA tools and script it using some > tool, either internal to the tool itself, or something like > expect. None of these will capture the part that introduces most of the latency: the Xvnc-to-vncviewer connection, which works by transmitting deltas over a configurable (at server startup) time. I don't know of any performance tools which can interact across a vncviewer. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH --Apple-Mail-66--992292242 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkuIUoEACgkQIn7hlCsL25VCZwCgvkO6z2wnP2jg/tHoEfRGQZW8 MIgAn1h2Yr7vpHI1eRp1F24Fry+c0nJb =2UF0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-66--992292242-- From aardvark@saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com Fri Feb 26 15:13:25 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QNDOfv060650 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:13:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aardvark@saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com) Received: from smtp-relay2.uniserve.ca (smtp-relay2f.uniserve.ca [216.113.194.204]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QNDLXW010543 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [65.38.42.251] (helo=thornhill.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com) by smtp-relay2.uniserve.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nl9HF-0006oD-VX; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:07:22 -0800 Received: by thornhill.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5C4923A74A; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:07:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:07:21 -0800 From: Hugh Brown Sender: Hugh Brown To: sage@richfox.org Message-ID: <20100226230721.GP4307@thornhill.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="p/1JFEOz/hVXxMAZ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-Sender-Info: aardvark@saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com X-Scanner: OK. Scanned. X-Uniserve-Spam-Score: 0.1 1 (/) X-Uniserve-Spam-Report: Content analysis details: (0.1 points) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.1 RDNS_NONE Delivered to trusted network by a host with no rDNS X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Opinions/Experiences on Overland for Tape Libraries? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:13:25 -0000 --p/1JFEOz/hVXxMAZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline sage@richfox.org disturbed my sleep to write: > I am considering acquiring an Overland NEO 2000e dual LTO4 library for > backing up a 11 terabyte and growing filesystem and I'm kind of concerned > that they come in so cheap. This might be a blessing if it's reliable and > good because this is an academic budget. Does anyone have positive or > negative experiences with this product and/or company? I got an Overland library a few years/jobs ago -- can't remember the model number, but I believe it was an LTO2 with capacity for 11 or 12 tapes. I think I used it for about a year before changing jobs, but I had no problems with it during that time. Thanks, Hugh -- Hugh Brown http://saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com Because the plural of Anecdote is Myth. --p/1JFEOz/hVXxMAZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkuIVCkACgkQcljl8kcFycejnwCfRCPXcnp6/PfEtc0ytytspfDC S0YAn3jZ46P2R7fyk7ZmRVTYZNwmKNr0 =tsGk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --p/1JFEOz/hVXxMAZ-- From tal@whatexit.org Fri Feb 26 15:30:45 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QNUj4M061024 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:30:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-vw0-f48.google.com (mail-vw0-f48.google.com [209.85.212.48]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QNUg17010788 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws12 with SMTP id 12so242926vws.35 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:30:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.123.207 with SMTP id q15mr554465vcr.186.1267227033738; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:30:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100226230721.GP4307@thornhill.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com> References: <20100226230721.GP4307@thornhill.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:30:33 -0500 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91002261530s4795d312sc82b89d7e3c48d4a@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: Hugh Brown Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Opinions/Experiences on Overland for Tape Libraries? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:30:46 -0000 I bought 3 Overlands at my previous job and used them for about 6 months before I left. No problems at all. From looking at the web site, I think they were NEO 400S's. Tom -- http://EverythingSysadmin.com -- http://www.TomOnTime.com Computer and network administrators... Spread the word! LOPSA New Jersey Professional IT Community Conference New Brunswick, NJ, May 7-8, 2010 -- http://picconf.org From frank@crawford.emu.id.au Fri Feb 26 15:57:25 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QNvPnj061729 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:57:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frank@crawford.emu.id.au) Received: from ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net (ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net [150.101.137.143]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QNvLL8011658 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:57:24 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApsEAFPrh0s7p/2A/2dsb2JhbACcErs7hHkE Received: from ppp167-253-128.static.internode.on.net (HELO bits.crawford.emu.id.au) ([59.167.253.128]) by ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 27 Feb 2010 10:22:13 +1030 Received: from [203.16.204.7] (agc.crawford.emu.id.au [203.16.204.7]) by bits.crawford.emu.id.au (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1QNq65F004669; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:52:07 +1100 From: Frank Crawford To: Joseph Noonan In-Reply-To: <20100226093747.K47600@pcjfn.msc.com> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <257bbce41002121017h636d4703p57b4e666131ecd39@mail.gmail.com> <1266032243.17393.23.camel@pbc.crawford.emu.id.au> <20100225154058.W47600@pcjfn.msc.com> <20100225230723.GA77983@redoubt.spodhuis.org> <20100226093747.K47600@pcjfn.msc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:52:06 +1100 Message-ID: <1267228326.11201.14.camel@agc.crawford.emu.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.2 (2.28.2-1.fc12) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (bits.crawford.emu.id.au [203.16.204.1]); Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:52:07 +1100 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at bits.crawford.emu.id.au X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.0 (2010-01-18) on bits.crawford.emu.id.au X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=85% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:57:26 -0000 On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 10:50 -0600, Joseph Noonan wrote: > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 at 3:07pm Phil Pennock wrote: ... > No. I quoted one line of the OP's text, the line that made the claim > that "IPv6 has been well designed from a network engineering > perspective" and I asked for support for what I think is a silly > assertion. In spite of the number of electrons spilled below, I still > don't have any evidence for the above claim. Yes, and you took that line out of context. My full comment was: "IPv6 has been well designed from a network engineering perspective, but we are now moving into the area of deployment, system management (not network management) and use, and there are lots of gaps needing to be filled in. Expect to find lots of places that need some workarounds to be put in place." >From what I can see most aspects have been thought through and not just an accumulation of hacks and fixes over time. It includes features for extensions, optimisations for current router technologies, plans for distribution and auto configuration, etc, etc. Many of which were picked up from IPv4 or have been backported to IPv4. However, as I also said there are lots of gaps, and I fully agree that in any non-trivial implementation you will find some part that has not been thought through for your implementation. In fact, while I'm probably not as critical as you appear to be, I do agree there is still a lot to do to make IPv6 usable in the real world, as opposed to the trivial sample sites currently deployed. That does not mean that it won't work, and in fact, there are a lot of clever people now being pushed into doing just that. Regards Frank From frank@crawford.emu.id.au Fri Feb 26 16:19:47 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1R0Jl5w062266 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:19:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frank@crawford.emu.id.au) Received: from ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net (ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net [150.101.137.143]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1R0JhJm012003 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:19:46 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApsEAGDyh0s7p/2A/2dsb2JhbACcErtOhHkE Received: from ppp167-253-128.static.internode.on.net (HELO bits.crawford.emu.id.au) ([59.167.253.128]) by ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 27 Feb 2010 10:49:42 +1030 Received: from [203.16.204.7] (agc.crawford.emu.id.au [203.16.204.7]) by bits.crawford.emu.id.au (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1R0JOPN005793; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:19:24 +1100 From: Frank Crawford To: Joseph Noonan In-Reply-To: <1267228326.11201.14.camel@agc.crawford.emu.id.au> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <257bbce41002121017h636d4703p57b4e666131ecd39@mail.gmail.com> <1266032243.17393.23.camel@pbc.crawford.emu.id.au> <20100225154058.W47600@pcjfn.msc.com> <20100225230723.GA77983@redoubt.spodhuis.org> <20100226093747.K47600@pcjfn.msc.com> <1267228326.11201.14.camel@agc.crawford.emu.id.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:19:24 +1100 Message-ID: <1267229964.11201.17.camel@agc.crawford.emu.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.2 (2.28.2-1.fc12) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (bits.crawford.emu.id.au [203.16.204.1]); Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:19:24 +1100 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at bits.crawford.emu.id.au X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.0 (2010-01-18) on bits.crawford.emu.id.au X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=85% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 00:19:48 -0000 On Sat, 2010-02-27 at 10:52 +1100, Frank Crawford wrote: > On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 10:50 -0600, Joseph Noonan wrote: > > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 at 3:07pm Phil Pennock wrote: Just to make it clear, my comments were directed at Joseph's comments, not Phil's. I was just a bit sloppy with my cutting. Regards Frank From dave@compata.com Fri Feb 26 19:24:45 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1R3Ojpj066484 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:24:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@compata.com) Received: from compata.com (compata.com [66.92.38.163]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1R3Ogcv015510 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:24:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from aopen.compata.com (aopen [192.168.44.9]) by compata.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o1R3Ogl1004422 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:24:42 -0800 Received: from localhost by aopen.compata.com (Linux 2.6) with ESMTP (8.14.1/8.14.1) id o1R3OfW8012310 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:24:41 -0800 Message-Id: <201002270324.o1R3OfW8012310@aopen.compata.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.2 01/07/2005 with nmh-1.1 To: sage-members@sage.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:35 PST." <1267212935.14827.1362096331@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1267212935.14827.1362096331@webmail.messagingengine.com> From: Dave Close X-message-flag: If MS Outlook let's me put up this note, think what else it allows incoming messages to do to your computer! X-Face: $?&5f7w4GjUJOb-[FmngebA}V`5Dv)QEdHg|d%mytVRm]'o}*{J6:PP%(LfN LmOcb#>"^wDF*|ZzuS??S*vLH[.miV( List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 03:24:46 -0000 "Philip J. Hollenback" wrote: >I'm starting to use Review Board (www.reviewboard.org) for code review. >Seems good so far. However, I would really like to enforce code review >before subversion checkin, for a subset of projects. In particular we >keep some production config information in subversion, and I don't ever >want anyone to change those files without enforced code review. On any project of consequence, the recommended technique is to checkin code often, long before its finished. The act of labeling a version is what needs to be controlled, not checkin. Without checkin, you are not protected against loss of interim results. -- Dave Close, Compata, Irvine CA "You ain't goin' nowhere, son." dave@compata.com, +1 714 434 7359 -- Grand Ole Opry manager to dhclose@alumni.caltech.edu Elvis Presley, 1954 From prvs=0674eb6f73=phil.pennock@globnix.org Fri Feb 26 19:59:22 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1R3xMbJ067374 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:59:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from prvs=0674eb6f73=phil.pennock@globnix.org) Received: from mx.spodhuis.org (redoubt.spodhuis.org [94.142.241.89]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1R3xIcd016118 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:59:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=globnix.org; s=d200912; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=x/Z/iQiU/JXZiagOtzh6alP0DWtr40hoLMr8aW3D2Tc=; b=yPjE1pUq3lH8fgA4oWKO4E+zU+1ecbi7m7ah3TfCGPXCTsNb+u80i22iLWSGkVX06Iz3sxiZ4VKaTA3naVsbqCXqA2hczhDt0r3iO04RqLNja8oPFHoAj1fKcfiaydjI0vskZ+mcvpgD7rWsIdEjqC2/+PM00DgR4Z5S0q+W7HY=; Received: by smtp.spodhuis.org with local id 1NlDpk-000MXk-LU; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 03:59:16 +0000 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:59:16 -0800 From: Phil Pennock To: sage-members@sage.org Message-ID: <20100227035916.GA86508@redoubt.spodhuis.org> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@sage.org References: <1267212935.14827.1362096331@webmail.messagingengine.com> <201002270324.o1R3OfW8012310@aopen.compata.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201002270324.o1R3OfW8012310@aopen.compata.com> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Review Board / Subversion integration? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 03:59:22 -0000 On 2010-02-26 at 19:24 -0800, Dave Close wrote: > "Philip J. Hollenback" wrote: > >I'm starting to use Review Board (www.reviewboard.org) for code review. > >Seems good so far. However, I would really like to enforce code review > >before subversion checkin, for a subset of projects. In particular we > >keep some production config information in subversion, and I don't ever > >want anyone to change those files without enforced code review. > > On any project of consequence, the recommended technique is to checkin > code often, long before its finished. The act of labeling a version is > what needs to be controlled, not checkin. Without checkin, you are not > protected against loss of interim results. There's two types of code review and you're talking at cross purposes. One type is to prepare the work to be reviewed as a major change but commit frequently, eg on a branch, then ask for a huge review before integrating to main or the like. It's a heavy burden on the reviewer, works if you're separated by timezones from any other participants and the numbers of real experts in an area is very low and you're after a "have I done anything glaringly stupid" review. If you just protect labelling the version, you then potentially have a huge amount of work to get the first label attempt to a point where it's stable, (ie, you branch at that point; if you don't branch, other people committing early will keep breaking the build -- so you're into branch for release, instead of devel on branch). The OP's model is more like that catching on in certain Bay Area / SF companies, where you're working on a codebase with many other developers, who are presumed to be able to give a quick turnaround, working to common style guides, etc, and it's considered rude to ask someone to review more than 2k lines of changes without some warning. You might create something skeletal and then keep working on it. Some developers treat code review as a rubber stamp, others actually read the code and look for problems. In theory, the amount of work to get a release branch cut into a releasable state is reduced. Also, if you declare owners for certain project areas and require an approval from each project area you touch, you keep from having someone changing an API in a base component go really wrong when changing all the calling sites. There, you'd typically go for review with someone locally to test the basics are all sound and then send out to all the teams affected and get a reviewer to hopefully just rubber-stamp. So you still check-in often, but you get approval on those changes. The benefit of a system like Review Board is that all the comments are collected together in one place, latecomers can see them, comments can be attached to particular changes on particular lines of code in particular revisions of the diff, etc. (My experience isn't with RB itself, but another somewhat similar system). As a sysadmin, changing production configs of something you're not intimately familiar with (and often even then) it's really useful to run the changes by a second admin for sanity checks. I've caught mistakes, and mistakes of mine have been caught, and by this model production outages have been avoided. If doing something particularly dangerous at the cmdline, you might ask for someone to lean over and look over what you wrote. This is similar, but for config changes. To the OP: do make sure that if you're including production configs that you include escape mechanisms, such as submitting for post-review. It's a social issue to establish that this should only be used for emergencies or true trivialities and keep people from abusing it. -Phil From seph@directionless.org Sat Feb 27 08:19:18 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RGJHea084071 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 08:19:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seph@directionless.org) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1RGJEA7010498 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 08:19:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.internal [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B929CE2893; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:19:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from heartbeat1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:19:13 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=smtpout; bh=31zvQcpkx/vuoJ95ysEGx+4Ts24=; b=X0eJoCymm5ZONxXyXORWFQGSmFfxYtzhuMG2HeMcrCTAj1LqBlE7f6ynfuveIRJ1WpoGKSzrCkC5G3ND1nQBJOmsEDiUHPMdkKyWMPDHsoV91NMca/d05QvBpLuafmeTnShbI2a6F5e6uAfiBbf5HarKG5x/8n15wBtuUesXVZU= X-Sasl-enc: muMSHJY5FtxNkiPcQ2ucYjlDYfjQn9TcIo/GwcWruFgl 1267287552 Received: from bastion.directionless.org (c-24-128-190-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.128.190.204]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7C17E49B889; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:19:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by bastion.directionless.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:19:12 -0500 From: seph To: "John Stoffel" References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:19:12 -0500 In-Reply-To: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> (John Stoffel's message of "Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:43:27 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110008 (No Gnus v0.8) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 16:19:19 -0000 "John Stoffel" writes: > We're looking around for anyone's methodology for testing the > performance of VNC connection for both latency and performance. > Most of my users don't care, but a vocal subset wants to NOT use VNC > at all for remote work. I wonder of Selenium could work here. Testing from the end user side of the world, on something like a web browser seems like it should be pretty reasonable. But I'm not sure if selenium has a performance component, or if it's mostly just correctness. Or for that matter, some gui testing framework around your actual tools. seph From kurt.buff@gmail.com Sat Feb 27 09:15:03 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RHF3Po085639 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:15:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f182.google.com (mail-qy0-f182.google.com [209.85.221.182]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1RHF0wm012016 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:15:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk12 with SMTP id 12so667725qyk.7 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:14:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=KRCdbb/+Wx79w/aUEaXl2I4GaCnFZmER3bWSPyB4Yks=; b=hKp4EMNNbx5yay3eKj6rlmMfLYn8I6q9hBI/UAcNcYGHykPO5q5SKniO6aZdzqeweg 5gNFKAGf6hcoXmlseKt8gVURS1K3VCMj4LqzTyLpNYV5r9e005FXNDVgfA7tmj0v8aGJ j35vqrifXFh7nggDedo65guoqznrnnvYqqNiE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=XCFI47MWxO5EXZxyqlKlOD8sJr4+mg9p4ErXWn6BP5ir+rdZmNPYE7S+jSGQopd79y G/QsL3WGsPnPWse2I8kveyModUPoi/9nQPUi55fmc5ljbQiEll/UuENXgy4P//8Dh+w/ 7hkYb1ZBPS8t6UmbIumnX9PSyPokPwNDmKLKY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.66.220 with SMTP id o28mr1108917qai.284.1267289593819; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 08:53:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 08:53:13 -0800 Message-ID: From: Kurt Buff To: SAGE mailing list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Subject: [SAGE] Dups for pings? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:15:04 -0000 All, I was testing my own firewall, and pinging through it to the outside. Among other sites, I pinged a web site that belongs to a vendor with whom I have a good relationship, and got the following unexpected results. r2# ping www.example.com PING example.com (64.xxx.yyy.zzz): 56 data bytes 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=93.510 ms 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=93.514 ms (DUP!) 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=106.696 ms (DUP!) 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=93.328 ms 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=93.332 ms (DUP!) 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=93.334 ms (DUP!) 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=93.158 ms 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=93.162 ms (DUP!) 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=93.271 ms (DUP!) 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=96.490 ms 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=96.494 ms (DUP!) 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=96.496 ms (DUP!) 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=93.088 ms 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=93.092 ms (DUP!) 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=93.563 ms (DUP!) ^C --- example.com ping statistics --- 6 packets transmitted, 5 packets received, +10 duplicates, 16.7% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 93.088/94.835/106.696/3.415 ms So, being the helpful fellow that I am, I notified them of this, and got back this answer: "This is nothing to worry about it has been this way for years. For load balancing we use Windows Network Load Balancing. Each server in the cluster has a Main IP address and a virtually bound IP address. When the cluster IP address is ping'd a ping response is sent out for both assigned IP address's." Huh? Is this really expected and "good" behavior? I won't delve into my disappointment that my Windows box doesn't show the dups - this set of pings and responses is from my FreeBSD workstation. Anyone have thoughts on this? I've not worked NLB, or clusters, so don't have a base of experience to draw from. Kurt From cat@reptiles.org Sat Feb 27 09:17:45 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RHHjsq085663 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:17:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cat@reptiles.org) Received: from mailbox.reptiles.org (rootgecko.reptiles.org@[198.96.210.227]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1RHHg9Z012105 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:17:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from skink.reptiles.org ([198.96.210.227] port=62604) by mailbox.reptiles.org([198.96.210.227] port=25) via TCP with esmtp (1653 bytes) (sender: ) (ident using UNIX) id for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:17:39 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.121 2005-Nov-17 #4 built 2006-Nov-28) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:17:37 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Kurt Buff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20100227121702.A14569@gecko.reptiles.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dups for pings? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:17:46 -0000 On Sat, 27 Feb 2010, Kurt Buff wrote: > So, being the helpful fellow that I am, I notified them of this, and > got back this answer: > > "This is nothing to worry about it has been this way for years. > For load balancing we use Windows Network Load Balancing. > Each server in the cluster has a Main IP address and a virtually > bound IP address. When the cluster IP address is ping'd a > ping response is sent out for both assigned IP address's." > > Huh? Is this really expected and "good" behavior? It's expected behaviour -- I'm not going to comment about whether it's actually "good" behaviour... cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From unix_fan@yahoo.com Sat Feb 27 09:24:01 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RHO1Lv085821 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:24:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from unix_fan@yahoo.com) Received: from web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com (web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.36.202]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id o1RHNwD2012277 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:24:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15203 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Feb 2010 17:17:12 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1267291032; bh=VwpYW6jZTL6bdNhwtfOFNudxWb1hDddhZtuUpElz6QA=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=rQuWqX+UN9UDUt5IGdwbsHFK5PBI1af6p7BL6iLt2HoKPCesvYrINKRVnVEN+YCm+Xxb2slkZl8MA0Q75RVD7vdAaAarxH7GfURzAfZo50a3r5yDpTNh5Bi9EVeiQhK9CgdUB89sAbtkBGg3JTqQdCYscohwwhkULDkCW0Juzk4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=zcY6niTJDwruTXG6mDC+TatIpyPXDW07qAXIXxQIZ6ipcVI7Xrek2pDAwYkAqbkL1tXeWzSvsxlEJ6vkUkmHEtR+sgyzpnl9+WZzuwlCSMUisBPV7FQ89sNHnUAUNBGc4BIQ+qPb1B6iAiRtmACbCY8bHoz9GlFS1cudgVFTWj0=; Message-ID: <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: acgOrsMVM1m4C8RaUPkWfpmbuXup8RPh4EC8JrdK0IIY_3CyV8oGA8Fc7Pp6j_jaHF5hN_4fKKo.0AB9WnnNTi34iUzYCf3GRe3x_xTbyMVaX4qYqvSfecPgzBpLVL9IZZGTNtNnznXvKd9297..B.xzJthspSHWPdpW4.wXGWtKgiKDiqF1mW2ILvVlhDoYnEMsYEhhbxWVBL08b2tZCiJIPzoEtq4F2U1iJ6Jram4uQ8CzwltoAlUkj61kQrcPr0xaTa9rG.b4sSqMFl0zVvZE_z57IHsk5kwuGnGvqZskHsmWs8YErJ5Eq5vA1QjQV4ME2gmi0VFp0qDzV2x_7BYfb6wLdX3yBD2Z.K3vjHFxioVFVbmEHP4R7rTX Received: from [71.254.187.73] by web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:17:12 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/300.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:17:12 -0800 (PST) From: unix_fan To: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:24:02 -0000 ----- Original Message ---- > From: John Stoffel >[] > We're looking around for anyone's methodology for testing the > performance of VNC connection for both latency and performance. > Most of my users don't care, but a vocal subset wants to NOT use VNC > at all for remote work. > > So we're looking for ways to repeatably test a VNC connection for > performance under various metrics, in an objective and repeatable way. > We're an EDA shop, so tools for doing Layout drive the issue. Like Doug Hughes answer, this one is also not a direct answer but is relevant to your environment. 1. We're looking at expanded use of RGS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_Graphics_Software "distinguished by its proprietary compression algorithm which allows for real-time transmission of complex 3D images and video, which existing remote desktop protocols struggle with. This opens up the use of remote desktops and thin clients to graphics-intensive industries such as CAD" VNC causes heartburn for us because while we _can_ set it up securely by ssh and displaying to localhost, thus avoiding plaintext auth, in practice the extra steps seem inexplicably more difficult - and hence don't get done. 2. The Video driver matters in Cadence tools like IC, Assura, etc. We find the proprietary Nvidia driver packaged by HP performs significantly better than the distro supplied nv driver. Panning/zooming in Cadence IC layout will demonstrate the difference - no waiting. The HP supplied rpm also includes nvconfig, which will recompile the appropriate bits at bootup in case a new kernel is introduced. From bwhitehd@gmail.com Sat Feb 27 10:01:05 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RI15Af086638 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:01:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bwhitehd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com (mail-gy0-f169.google.com [209.85.160.169]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1RI11mM013575 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:01:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by gyf3 with SMTP id 3so296567gyf.28 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:00:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:references:message-id:from:to :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer :mime-version:subject:date:cc; bh=1LxxojoY/94MYI/oUeH1oDGzNkDbmOTrAKLlt8LFJPo=; b=M76SRA70c9pEcIMDvQf42pCCIjyEWdfIaKhnJIsSPck9K6zYFnfxtEj84H/WCU1ZGa o2ajLicOx+p/iytZzIytXlEO2VOGtNZDlHGEG7Y4vaRYpRqRU869Ch0qGveF1YHjA/Wh UYZiz84dSKIfnPjtBxw0gOxBK/ADOOb1l0wsU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=references:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:cc; b=DcoUooqX/lhIE61OyDSxvLk7qh/VhH45rDsAvEy8KUH6R0MKTEFXxsHGwobOFT+zrC MVXS2e7zGcnNuv2yrgrtIMbK8+UdOFaKZmVM7H4tRmqhqMyvr7n5mByKw+yg8SSrmFeF qwOWdiE/xf68IQNzeF8snmescBCZgrv5wIoF4= Received: by 10.151.29.10 with SMTP id g10mr120981ybj.129.1267293196482; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.111.218.226? ([166.205.11.185]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 7sm476560ywf.55.2010.02.27.09.53.14 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:53:16 -0800 (PST) References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-Id: From: Brian Whitehead To: unix_fan In-Reply-To: <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:53:01 -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=9% Cc: "sage-members@usenix.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:01:06 -0000 One thing that we found important to improve performance with VNC are the compression and encoding settings on the client side. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 27, 2010, at 11:17 AM, unix_fan wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- >> From: John Stoffel >> [] >> We're looking around for anyone's methodology for testing the >> performance of VNC connection for both latency and performance. >> Most of my users don't care, but a vocal subset wants to NOT use VNC >> at all for remote work. >> >> So we're looking for ways to repeatably test a VNC connection for >> performance under various metrics, in an objective and repeatable >> way. >> We're an EDA shop, so tools for doing Layout drive the issue. > > Like Doug Hughes answer, this one is also not a direct answer but is > relevant to your environment. > > 1. We're looking at expanded use of RGS > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_Graphics_Software > "distinguished by its proprietary compression algorithm which allows > for > real-time transmission of complex 3D images and video, which existing > remote desktop protocols struggle with. This opens up the use of > remote > desktops and thin clients to graphics-intensive industries such as > CAD" > > VNC causes heartburn for us because while we _can_ set it up > securely by ssh and displaying to localhost, thus avoiding plaintext > auth, in practice the extra steps seem inexplicably more difficult - > and hence don't get done. > > 2. The Video driver matters in Cadence tools like IC, Assura, etc. > We find the proprietary Nvidia driver packaged by HP performs > significantly better than the distro supplied nv driver. Panning/ > zooming in Cadence IC layout will demonstrate the difference - no > waiting. The HP supplied rpm also includes nvconfig, which will > recompile the appropriate bits at bootup in case a new kernel is > introduced. > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From bwhitehd@gmail.com Sat Feb 27 10:10:34 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RIAYQj086811 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:10:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bwhitehd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw0-f177.google.com (mail-yw0-f177.google.com [209.85.211.177]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1RIAUik013808 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:10:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by ywh7 with SMTP id 7so645444ywh.26 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:10:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:references:message-id:from:to :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer :mime-version:subject:date:cc; bh=9Ho9E4Qq5kbq6EjRO9Jts6n9V5u7gYDBsl/Oa8qiQ8w=; b=o2FrLUtfAh2Ohn7QIDRGLVgWbtVtAJxW8ncOcMOQG/3BD+/UeTuICI1cdhRTofpbMf 4DoDblhz8gvCBSBqgz5Mut9lsNSoDQipX6YsqYyPWbBWX9Hvn0QMzJhnPLyrKc5ngj9x BA873ruIuhL+pd9EmCrnyX2iWMW9osNbYTVBw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=references:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:cc; b=dUGzy7AoCYv+eHJaV1UrkR2AMORkJw7oH3TvZh62TGXwiInnD+0RInnpzP6Qe2ObW4 pnwmNxz5uV8Rf5Tfax9mZ7OqJe3ldf9yYqDjvUORMKRV9vHu6VrhHFMs9hW5VA5m6Ltu 9FTas9EA/A1n0/LqgJVoFyMCP5anuSrxAA3Yk= Received: by 10.151.94.1 with SMTP id w1mr1646891ybl.64.1267292369998; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.111.218.226? ([166.205.11.185]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 9sm478452ywf.53.2010.02.27.09.39.26 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:39:29 -0800 (PST) References: Message-Id: From: Brian Whitehead To: Kurt Buff In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:39:16 -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=8% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dups for pings? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:10:34 -0000 No, this is not good or expected. Whether it works or causes a problem is irrelevant. This indicates that something is misconfigured and you are receiv Sent from my iPhone On Feb 27, 2010, at 10:53 AM, Kurt Buff wrote: > All, > > I was testing my own firewall, and pinging through it to the outside. > Among other sites, I pinged a web site that belongs to a vendor with > whom I have a good relationship, and got the following unexpected > results. > > r2# ping www.example.com > PING example.com (64.xxx.yyy.zzz): 56 data bytes > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=93.510 ms > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=93.514 > ms (DUP!) > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=106.696 > ms (DUP!) > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=93.328 ms > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=93.332 > ms (DUP!) > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=93.334 > ms (DUP!) > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=93.158 ms > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=93.162 > ms (DUP!) > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=93.271 > ms (DUP!) > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=96.490 ms > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=96.494 > ms (DUP!) > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=96.496 > ms (DUP!) > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=93.088 ms > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=93.092 > ms (DUP!) > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=93.563 > ms (DUP!) > ^C > --- example.com ping statistics --- > 6 packets transmitted, 5 packets received, +10 duplicates, > 16.7% packet loss > round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 93.088/94.835/106.696/3.415 ms > > So, being the helpful fellow that I am, I notified them of this, and > got back this answer: > > "This is nothing to worry about it has been this way for years. > For load balancing we use Windows Network Load Balancing. > Each server in the cluster has a Main IP address and a virtually > bound IP address. When the cluster IP address is ping'd a > ping response is sent out for both assigned IP address's." > > Huh? Is this really expected and "good" behavior? > > I won't delve into my disappointment that my Windows box doesn't show > the dups - this set of pings and responses is from my FreeBSD > workstation. > > Anyone have thoughts on this? I've not worked NLB, or clusters, so > don't have a base of experience to draw from. > > Kurt > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From bwhitehd@gmail.com Sat Feb 27 10:11:19 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RIBJAM086849 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:11:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bwhitehd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gy0-f176.google.com (mail-gy0-f176.google.com [209.85.160.176]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1RIBFRa013836 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:11:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by gyb13 with SMTP id 13so533957gyb.35 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:11:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:references:message-id:from:to :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer :mime-version:subject:date:cc; bh=gKCdJH3KONtEIg6xsj6SfREbWcBbmpDzuUheikoMLZw=; b=b2EUu77tUkI7zsiN5Zkhnhx7sXSOdPv/V6X9JaW1sU5Ve/Blra3V1LMeENPMPtO1Ki VGEu73BBp6RKBHmL60xjnU6kAeHrIzFO0zqphHF1PzXniZFFCuFf9ZRekPmf0FxybqYm 3OJraz8RVOcs6CWh5QtnWUPjSp4NCdLeDiJ1o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=references:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:cc; b=WagJ9HUk+fkcWW48jNS+HAuBxeNX4t4SfKQE3Ck5dxHBEIPS4vfo/SRNBzqBlP3WUr GogFV6tbuS/700Opm8kITV4TZfqaZe1Az3mPZToXKX+vl86WT7UliYbT6xsvcxwdJmBW e7SBM70oBAw+XlinI7N9wmU6vbCFofkAwAb5w= Received: by 10.150.118.24 with SMTP id q24mr3039161ybc.119.1267292563639; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:42:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.111.218.226? ([166.205.11.185]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 4sm476247ywi.51.2010.02.27.09.42.40 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:42:43 -0800 (PST) References: Message-Id: From: Brian Whitehead To: Brian Whitehead In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:42:30 -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dups for pings? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:11:19 -0000 Sorry, somehow hit a wrong key. You are receiving a response from or your system knows multiple hosts with the same address. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 27, 2010, at 11:39 AM, Brian Whitehead wrote: > No, this is not good or expected. Whether it works or causes a > problem is irrelevant. This indicates that something is > misconfigured and you are receiv > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 27, 2010, at 10:53 AM, Kurt Buff wrote: > >> All, >> >> I was testing my own firewall, and pinging through it to the outside. >> Among other sites, I pinged a web site that belongs to a vendor with >> whom I have a good relationship, and got the following unexpected >> results. >> >> r2# ping www.example.com >> PING example.com (64.xxx.yyy.zzz): 56 data bytes >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=93.510 ms >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=93.514 >> ms (DUP!) >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=106.696 >> ms (DUP!) >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=93.328 ms >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=93.332 >> ms (DUP!) >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=93.334 >> ms (DUP!) >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=93.158 ms >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=93.162 >> ms (DUP!) >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=93.271 >> ms (DUP!) >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=96.490 ms >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=96.494 >> ms (DUP!) >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=96.496 >> ms (DUP!) >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=93.088 ms >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=93.092 >> ms (DUP!) >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=93.563 >> ms (DUP!) >> ^C >> --- example.com ping statistics --- >> 6 packets transmitted, 5 packets received, +10 duplicates, >> 16.7% packet loss >> round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 93.088/94.835/106.696/3.415 ms >> >> So, being the helpful fellow that I am, I notified them of this, and >> got back this answer: >> >> "This is nothing to worry about it has been this way for years. >> For load balancing we use Windows Network Load Balancing. >> Each server in the cluster has a Main IP address and a virtually >> bound IP address. When the cluster IP address is ping'd a >> ping response is sent out for both assigned IP address's." >> >> Huh? Is this really expected and "good" behavior? >> >> I won't delve into my disappointment that my Windows box doesn't show >> the dups - this set of pings and responses is from my FreeBSD >> workstation. >> >> Anyone have thoughts on this? I've not worked NLB, or clusters, so >> don't have a base of experience to draw from. >> >> Kurt >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From rnelson@ronspace.org Sat Feb 27 10:15:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RIF8hY086966 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:15:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rnelson@ronspace.org) Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com (mail-gy0-f169.google.com [209.85.160.169]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1RIF5ZI013970 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by gyf3 with SMTP id 3so299579gyf.28 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:14:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.91.19.17 with SMTP id w17mr1855912agi.54.1267294499630; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:14:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:14:59 -0600 Message-ID: From: Ron Nelson To: Brian Whitehead Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Cc: "sage-members@usenix.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:15:08 -0000 This probably doesn't apply to the OP's issue, but for my VNC use (lots of x-terms on a box on the other side of the VPN link) ssh session compression works very well. For this use, RealVNC gave the best performance. Ron On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Brian Whitehead wrote: > > One thing that we found important to improve performance with VNC are the compression and encoding settings on the client side. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> ----- Original Message ---- >>> >>> From: John Stoffel >>> [] >>> We're looking around for anyone's methodology for testing the >>> performance of VNC connection for both latency and performance. >>> Most of my users don't care, but a vocal subset wants to NOT use VNC >>> at all for remote work. >>> >>> So we're looking for ways to repeatably test a VNC connection for >>> performance under various metrics, in an objective and repeatable way. >>> We're an EDA shop, so tools for doing Layout drive the issue. -- http://ronspace.org/ From kurt.buff@gmail.com Sat Feb 27 11:13:45 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RJDiQ9088409 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:13:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f182.google.com (mail-qy0-f182.google.com [209.85.221.182]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1RJDf0G015384 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:13:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk12 with SMTP id 12so701307qyk.7 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:13:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=i1LevH2tOITXYzy9COlqyg5OmNlyddEstQC9rFJGYoU=; b=EVVzotNED6guL42dTA6XdwLIddrADuZ2++JToUypA/wb0yd9EGNhQvf1Vynyf4HS4I IskqVied5sRbOAuuOEMO5+KN+iNcfSVZrK2VV47nWcETl4j4aTrqNwTCM/qEeUzUBP79 8PcVy4DDa6ijz1KtWITFVbVCxygo1BEhZqctI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=wMFXVSM6KyquTCAupx5V7cWk4g370cjBfYYcmgzlCQYijztqm5ft/2EQ2gqLscXxXI 3s/pW5c/gFZD6lmMVbfUsrI2o6DDLgBVioyyNsqMVpepZcCCMe5psvLbjYvqCU1D6AHF XeBcC/FcMCsCFpBbuBQEd+39IddvGy1S4XhFg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.57.1 with SMTP id a1mr1206890qah.111.1267298016212; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:13:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100227121702.A14569@gecko.reptiles.org> References: <20100227121702.A14569@gecko.reptiles.org> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:13:36 -0800 Message-ID: From: Kurt Buff To: SAGE mailing list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1RJDiQ9088409 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dups for pings? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:13:45 -0000 On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 09:17, Cat Okita wrote: > On Sat, 27 Feb 2010, Kurt Buff wrote: >> >> So, being the helpful fellow that I am, I notified them of this, and >> got back this answer: >> >>    "This is nothing to worry about it has been this way for years. >>    For load balancing we use Windows Network Load Balancing. >>    Each server in the cluster has a Main IP address and a virtually >>    bound IP address.  When the cluster IP address is ping'd a >>    ping response is sent out for both assigned IP address's." >> >> Huh? Is this really expected and "good" behavior? > > It's expected behaviour -- I'm not going to comment about whether it's > actually "good" behaviour... ewwwww... http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc738894%28WS.10%29.aspx "In multicast mode, Network Load Balancing can limit switch flooding by providing Internet Group Management Protocol (IGMP) support. Network Load Balancing does not control any incoming IP traffic other than TCP and UDP traffic for specified ports and IGMP traffic in multicast mode. It does not filter other IP protocols (for example, ICMP or ARP), except as described below. Be aware that you should expect to see duplicate responses from certain point-to-point TCP/IP applications (such as ping) when the cluster IP address is used. If required, these applications can use the dedicated IP address for each host to avoid this behavior." Kurt From tal@whatexit.org Sat Feb 27 12:19:26 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RKJQoJ090163 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:19:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-vw0-f48.google.com (mail-vw0-f48.google.com [209.85.212.48]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1RKJMCg016734 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:19:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws12 with SMTP id 12so493180vws.35 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:19:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.126.197 with SMTP id d5mr1003414vcs.110.1267301957070; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:19:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 15:19:17 -0500 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91002271219k3413ddc5me2d9c7313fbd67b@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: SAGE X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] LOPSA NJ PICC '10: Call for Submissions (DEADLINE SOON!) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:19:27 -0000 Deadline is Monday! Submit, submit, submit! LOPSA NJ PICC is a regional conference for all system administrators! LOPSA New Jersey Professional IT Community Conference New Brunswick, NJ, May 7-8, 2010 -- http://picconf.org http://twitter.com/picconf http://picconf.org/facebook Call for ParticipationNew Jersey=92s LOPSA-NJ Professional IT Community Conference 2010 The organizers of the LOPSA-NJ Professional IT Community Conference (PICC) invite you to submit proposals for papers and talks to be presented at PICC =9110. PICC10 is a gathering of professionals from the diverse IT (computer and network administration) community in New Jersey to learn, share ideas, and network. The conference includes invited speakers and keynotes, training by top-notch experts that is relevant, useful, and recession-friendly; plus an =93unconference=94 track where attendees propose and host their own topics during the event. We expect attendance of 100 to 150 IT professionals from mid to large-sized companies and academia from New Jersey/New York/Pennsylvania. We go by many titles but everyone is invited: system administrators, network administrators, network engineers, Windows, Linux, Unix, DBAs, etc. Presentation Topics We strongly welcome topics on best practices, new developments in systems administration, and cutting edge techniques to better manage Linux, Unix, o= r Windows hosts and environments. Papers should be of a technical nature and speakers should assume that members of the audience have at least a few years experience in general IT, Linux/Unix, and/or Windows administration. The audience will primarily hail from medium-sized businesses and academic institutions in the New Jersey/New York/Pennsylvania area. Attendance is expected to be 100-150 participants. Topics may include (but are not limited to): - System Administration - Backups - Security - Troubleshooting - Buying Decisions - Virtualization - Cloud Computing - Enterprise Monitoring and Management - Identity Management - Web and Email Management - Spam and Virus Filtering - Network Filtering - Wiki - Clustering and High Availability - Log Management - VOIP - Ticketing Systems - Bootstrapping and Automated Installation - Configuration Management and Packaging Topics explicitly NOT requested: - Sales Presentations - Vendor Product Demonstrations - Proposals or Vaporware While this conference is in our first year, we ambitiously imagine presentations such as: - An author of an open-source package explains the project, the benefits and how it works. - A system administrator presents about a new technique, software system= , or device he or she created. - A senior system administrator describes the =91lessons learned=92 from converting from one email system to another. - Someone with recent experience in particular technology (cloud computing, backups, Windows 7, etc.) presents =9310 things I wish I knew before I started with [name of product]=93 - A Windows engineer describes how they manage their fleet of of desktops/laptops. Presentation Format We are actively seeking proposals for presentations at PICC=9210. We have openings for: - Papers: 5-10 page paper, published electronically to attendees at the conference, and publicly after the conference. Presentation at conferenc= e will be 30 minutes including Q&A. - Talks: 20 minute presentation + 10 minute Q&A. - Panels: 3-7 attendees, 30 minutes including Q&A. Submit your Presentation Everyone is invited to participate! Please submit the following information= : =93Paper=94 proposals: - Paper title - Author(s) contact info: Name, Title, Affiliation, email address, posta= l address - Please attach draft paper and/or slides in PDF form. If your proposal is accepted you will be required to present during the conference (20 minutes plus 10 minutes for Q&A). The final draft of the paper will need= to be submitted 2 weeks prior to the conference. - See =93Notes for all presentations and proposals=94 below for submissi= on email address and other info. =93Talk=94 proposals: - Presentation title - Presenter=92s Contact info: Name, title, affiliation, email address, postal address - Presentation summary: (3-6 paragraphs; or an outline; We=92re more lik= ely to accept a proposal that includes details about the contents, not a vag= ue description) - Presentation description: (1 paragraph, as would be printed in the program book) - Presenter=92s bio: (no more than 200 words) - Do you plan on submitting a paper or slides for publication to complement this talk? (please attach draft paper or slides in PDF form) - *Note:* If your talk is accepted, you will have the option of submitting a paper or slides to be published in the proceedings (on web = site and on the USB stick to be distributed to all attendees). The paper and/= or slides must be submitted at least 3 weeks prior to the conference. - See =93Notes for all presentations and proposals=94 below for submissi= on email address and other info. =93Panel Discussion=94 proposals: - We encourage attendees to create panels on topics of interest to the community. The submitter should be committed to facilitating the panel a= s well as finding 4-7 people to be on the panel. - Panel title - Facilitator Contact info: Name, Title, Affiliation, email address, postal address - Panel description: (1-3 paragraphs, as would be printed in the program book) - Facilitator bio: (no more than 200 words) - Name, affiliation, and (optional) short bio of panelists. - Would you like assistance finding additional panelists? (yes/no) - Note: While LOPSA-NJ will aid in finding additional panelists, much higher priority will be given to proposals that include a draft slate of confirmed panelists. - See =93Notes for all presentations and proposals=94 below for submissi= on email address and other info. Notes for all presentations and proposals: 1. All proposals should be sent to submissions@lopsanj.org 2. Submission deadline is 03-01-2010. Selections announced by 03-07-2010= . Sadly we can not accept all proposals. 3. Please note that in order to give a presentation or attend PICC =9110= , you must be registered for the conference. Presenting at the PICC =9110 = *does not* entitle you to discounted or free registration for the conference, nor priority with registration. 4. Third party submissions (i.e. proposals submitted on behalf of the presentor by a PR agency or marketing department) are strongly discourag= ed. Submissions and questions should be sent to:* submissions@lopsanj.org* Dates and Deadlines To encourage early submissions, priority (both for inclusion and scheduling= ) will be given to presentations submitted *before* the 1st of March. - 03-01-2010 =96 Deadline for submissions - 03-07-2010 =96 Final program confirmation - 05-07-2010 =96 Start of conference Contact and Questions Please see our website at http://www.lopsanj.org/events/picc10 for more information on PICC =9110 and presenting at this great event. If you have any questions, please feel free to email the organizers at:* submissions@lopsanj.org* From mike.diehn@gmail.com Sun Feb 28 08:22:18 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1SGMI5a019760 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:22:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike.diehn@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f171.google.com (mail-qy0-f171.google.com [209.85.221.171]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1SGME5f016821 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk1 with SMTP id 1so1036347qyk.0 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:22:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; bh=CjzHsnMmUFEkgUVT6leVHO6pyFr9NRDObmdNJxuAyrs=; b=uAJoULIOQ2f8AYo1zMFvyJknUfrZ7qU3c9g7VgL0/h07uy8OD+2uXP5Fi9lKZf8br6 D4Wxqb+vlpc702F1MMo2wcxX5bCP7Pg2+aNJD68fa4WYg2tfr9ZCca/KykcDOlWd6Fb+ QNBCihfZ0yOuAQST2K7cCjB3YEDE/ypTwRnT0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=CoZM+la88ciwOQMJ2CH5+WrjBGJ7p/Y7AV+gqWK0Z5XkDiy5SQIPtnuFWZ9lJTd45L sa1+2MfppywP9zY76UfOMY33BpMh+oStlkDtm2GufXZ4GZcJWZgv4WwN3fcT5Abn4cif bRb3hBJD68jg2yNcCU/cNFwHldRXvrym0XgYA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mike.diehn@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.72.163 with SMTP id m35mr1697872qaj.73.1267374129115; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:22:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> From: Mike Diehn Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:21:49 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4166ea856c565d34 Message-ID: <2a03c5ff1002280821q747ed408ncafce5548e045611@mail.gmail.com> To: Ron Nelson X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: "sage-members@usenix.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 16:22:18 -0000 You may also want to consider NoMachine (NX) and FreeNX. We're having good luck with them displaying ANSYS Workbench and Fluent - heavy duty CFD applications. We've used Xvnc for a long time for this purpose, mostly RealVNC and, in recent years, TurboVNC. In the last two years, we've been looking for better 3D performance and some of our staff have found NoMachine to be superior to any Xvnc they've used. And we IT staffers find it a *lot* easier to manage. Good luck, Mike On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Ron Nelson wrote: > This probably doesn't apply to the OP's issue, but for my VNC use > (lots of x-terms on a box on the other side of the VPN link) ssh > session compression works very well. For this use, RealVNC gave the > best performance. > > Ron > > On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Brian Whitehead > wrote: > > > > One thing that we found important to improve performance with VNC are the > compression and encoding settings on the client side. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >>> > >>> From: John Stoffel > >>> [] > >>> We're looking around for anyone's methodology for testing the > >>> performance of VNC connection for both latency and performance. > >>> Most of my users don't care, but a vocal subset wants to NOT use VNC > >>> at all for remote work. > >>> > >>> So we're looking for ways to repeatably test a VNC connection for > >>> performance under various metrics, in an objective and repeatable way. > >>> We're an EDA shop, so tools for doing Layout drive the issue. > > > > > -- > http://ronspace.org/ > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- Mike Diehn Diehn Consulting, LLC mike.diehn@gmail.com From treed@copilotco.com Sun Feb 28 13:54:13 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1SLsDDo027245 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:54:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1SLs9Je022803 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 9522B64C88; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:54:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:54:35 -0800 From: Tracy Reed To: John Stoffel Message-ID: <20100228215435.GP22103@tracyreed.org> References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nE/5a/j5SCML90Nq" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:54:14 -0000 --nE/5a/j5SCML90Nq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 04:43:27PM -0500, John Stoffel spake thusly: > We're currently using RealVNC 4.1.2/3 as our Xvnc servers on Solaris > 5.8 and RHEL3/4/5 systems. I'm starting to look at deploying FreeNX > as well. Some other options could be TurboVNC and TigerVNC as the > server side software due to their supposedly better compression > libraries. I would never consider using VNC for actual day to day work due to the latency issues. But my primary workstation is a FreeNX terminal and it is indistinguishible from a local X session as long as you don't try to play video. I recommend FreeNX in your situation. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --nE/5a/j5SCML90Nq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLiuYb9PIYKZYVAq0RAr4ZAKCVeCNk9hWRQcyIlzQw1nzvTVFTkACgiujX XhJaJ4lN0A4iTkUPKRb321M= =mAzZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nE/5a/j5SCML90Nq-- From treed@copilotco.com Sun Feb 28 14:01:51 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1SM1pRm027458 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:01:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1SM1mfJ022952 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:01:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 9965564C6B; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:02:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:02:14 -0800 From: Tracy Reed To: unix_fan Message-ID: <20100228220214.GQ22103@tracyreed.org> References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="u9wPhCK/rM6+CG+h" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 22:01:51 -0000 --u9wPhCK/rM6+CG+h Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 09:17:12AM -0800, unix_fan spake thusly: > VNC causes heartburn for us because while we _can_ set it up > securely by ssh and displaying to localhost, thus avoiding plaintext > auth, in practice the extra steps seem inexplicably more difficult - > and hence don't get done. I set this sort of thing up such that the only way to access the service is via ssh from localhost so there is no choice but to tunnel it over ssh. Set the user's ~/.ssh/config up such that the forward happens automatically to minimize the amount of work on their end. > The HP supplied rpm also includes nvconfig, which will recompile the > appropriate bits at bootup in case a new kernel is introduced. I'll have to check and see if the Fedora nvidia rpms I am using have something like that. Right now I am greatly annoyed every time I upgrade my kernel (which for Fedora feels like every other day) and X fails to start because I have to manually run the configurator thing which compiled a new version of the kernel module. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --u9wPhCK/rM6+CG+h Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLiufm9PIYKZYVAq0RAn2SAJ0UaP8+KrPGsde+1R5lwKXiCAQWtgCdHmKM 6NKZyZQQC20yfSCTj2d8V9g= =3RXE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --u9wPhCK/rM6+CG+h-- From mvgfr1@gmail.com Sun Feb 28 14:16:27 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1SMGR9c027850 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:16:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mvgfr1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com (mail-gy0-f169.google.com [209.85.160.169]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1SMGON9023155 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:16:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by gyf3 with SMTP id 3so581781gyf.28 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:16:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=IpWZbgkCX4qa7TRzwMhJ2NikElgZRXuvGu/Mh0Td27s=; b=aWW6+YkZvxAXZLU/qX77FiRTP3DLpqUUzhGNpvJyqztzOrQfE3eNhyfr2cBhUse8pE f49c/HShYsxuc4lJsxRlsOuFAwV660LC6rn1zddxg5MMrQXZkuPDWWLgPIwG+Lrx3hz+ BOyzkpd7tD9rI+ibdHAHePyszsAdeM/o1WN7E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=cUjcrswoPH7fMm7MLyRLC3GBnPDicf/SquP8/TJNqPdXwYryDV0a8rVuiOWSwkpQCZ +EgVEUajqdK3FDJC5Vj3STvMNmlJOrlQ+5LV6Zx3j3fxo0GrTIBJQGWJLC9x2jnT5Ysa PMOhMqHti++qnC+JSJYtDE6SYzHPKe6LahkoM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.166.14 with SMTP id o14mr2247867ybe.219.1267395378901; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:16:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2a03c5ff1002280821q747ed408ncafce5548e045611@mail.gmail.com> References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <2a03c5ff1002280821q747ed408ncafce5548e045611@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:16:18 -0500 Message-ID: <4c7b1781002281416r7af0aab9x736e3818bae75896@mail.gmail.com> From: Marc Farnum Rendino To: Mike Diehn X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: "sage-members@usenix.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 22:16:28 -0000 On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Mike Diehn wrote: > You may also want to consider NoMachine (NX) and FreeNX... I'm new to NoMachine NX (free) and haven't been able to fix a blank/black screen (on the controlling machine) after authentication. I've tried controlling from different systems, looking at the logs, searching the net and the NoMachine site, etc.; no luck - any recommendations of NX communities to consult or debugging tactics? Thanks, Marc From philiph@pobox.com Sun Feb 28 14:54:41 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1SMsfrA028747 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:54:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from philiph@pobox.com) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1SMscMZ023777 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:54:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.internal [10.202.2.41]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32105E28EE for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from web7.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.216]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:54:38 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=message-id:from:to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:references:subject:in-reply-to:date; s=smtpout; bh=OzClmtNSWoC9BCRDVS5IAtPRWiw=; b=gUJwdRGxEjZX0XiS0AXHrSf5RzWHZTAztKv0fGoHRAlSD13EU2JtosXNcitysK/37wSg2UtWs35D0XMoif8tu4OuxES/1doQdFL4EtNkzdD0NHBirx3yr2RYX4yXRLNY19/kH+IKuyUMFjLYp5FUIUQOeclD+yjkZoVW0CD87Mg= Received: by web7.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 07D3723099; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:54:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1267397677.27639.1362368419@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: hZQLJzGZPvfezzLFyZ8mSBum7MhPf0YQDpBW9IoH/JK2 1267397677 From: "Philip J. Hollenback" To: "SAGE Members" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface References: <1267212935.14827.1362096331@webmail.messagingengine.com> <201002270324.o1R3OfW8012310@aopen.compata.com> In-Reply-To: <201002270324.o1R3OfW8012310@aopen.compata.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:54:37 -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Review Board / Subversion integration? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 22:54:42 -0000 On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:24 -0800, "Dave Close" wrote: > "Philip J. Hollenback" wrote: > > >I'm starting to use Review Board (www.reviewboard.org) for code review. > >Seems good so far. However, I would really like to enforce code review > >before subversion checkin, for a subset of projects. In particular we > >keep some production config information in subversion, and I don't ever > >want anyone to change those files without enforced code review. > > On any project of consequence, the recommended technique is to checkin > code often, long before its finished. The act of labeling a version is > what needs to be controlled, not checkin. Without checkin, you are not > protected against loss of interim results. That's a valid point, but only relevant to code, not config files. The config files exist in a fairly static state in subversion, and there's not really a concept of iterative code changes in them. I would like to just programatically force code review of the config files before they are checked in. It seems possible to hack this together with subversion's pre-commit hooks, but of course I was hoping someone had already done that for me. :) Thanks everyone for your suggestions and pointers. -- Philip J. Hollenback philiph@pobox.com www.hollenback.net From kalt@taranis.org Sun Feb 28 17:56:59 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o211uxiu033104 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:56:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kalt@taranis.org) Received: from mail-bw0-f222.google.com (mail-bw0-f222.google.com [209.85.218.222]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o211utEr026638 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:56:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz22 with SMTP id 22so221691bwz.39 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:56:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.39.203 with SMTP id h11mr2561068bke.153.1267408304166; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:51:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Christophe Kalt Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:51:24 -0500 Message-ID: <7c3a19501002281751v264a6547pb8865d58d900c0db@mail.gmail.com> To: sage@richfox.org X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Opinions/Experiences on Overland for Tape Libraries? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 01:57:00 -0000 Bought the 2000 library twice, always been happy with it and the service whenever we had a problem (which was with the drive, not the library itself). The thing to know is that renewing the warranty (after the 3 years) is typically more expensive than getting a new unit. Not necessarily an issue as a new unit will typically come with a set of newer generation drives. Christophe On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 15:46, wrote: > Hi, > > I am considering acquiring an Overland NEO 2000e dual LTO4 library for > backing up a 11 terabyte and growing filesystem and I'm kind of concerned > that they come in so cheap. This might be a blessing if it's reliable and > good because this is an academic budget. Does anyone have positive or > negative experiences with this product and/or company? > > Thanks, > Rich. > > -- > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From rskiadmin@chycoski.com Sun Feb 28 21:16:55 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o215GrKv037812 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:16:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rskiadmin@chycoski.com) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o215Goaw000037 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:16:53 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-4.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEANfcikurRN+J/2dsb2JhbACbFnOiUpc7hHsEgxc X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,557,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="93772330" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Mar 2010 05:16:45 +0000 Received: from [10.19.54.148] (sjc-rac-8713.cisco.com [10.19.54.148]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o215Gjan003161; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 05:16:45 GMT Message-ID: <4B8B4DBD.10609@chycoski.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:16:45 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100216 Thunderbird/3.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tracy Reed References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> <20100228215435.GP22103@tracyreed.org> In-Reply-To: <20100228215435.GP22103@tracyreed.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=4% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 05:16:56 -0000 On 2/28/10 1:54 PM, Tracy Reed wrote: > On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 04:43:27PM -0500, John Stoffel spake thusly: > >> We're currently using RealVNC 4.1.2/3 as our Xvnc servers on Solaris >> 5.8 and RHEL3/4/5 systems. I'm starting to look at deploying FreeNX >> as well. Some other options could be TurboVNC and TigerVNC as the >> server side software due to their supposedly better compression >> libraries. >> > I would never consider using VNC for actual day to day work due to the > latency issues. But my primary workstation is a FreeNX terminal and it > is indistinguishible from a local X session as long as you don't try > to play video. I recommend FreeNX in your situation. > > It depends on what you're using it for - VNC *reduces* latency for many applications, when a VNC server can be placed on-or-adjacent-to the target server. The latency sensitivity of X11 is much higher than VNC - I have many happy colleagues to whom I have introduced VNC. It's been a while since I attempted to use NX, but at that time it did not handle reconnect well at all, which VNC excels at. NX did make better use of low bandwidth, longer latency connections, but such connections were also likely to be failure-prone, which made VNC the overall winner. YMMV, do consider all of the operational issues when choosing your platform. - Richard From hbrown@divms.uiowa.edu Mon Mar 1 06:37:06 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o21Eb6xd050252 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 06:37:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hbrown@divms.uiowa.edu) Received: from serv07.divms.uiowa.edu (serv07.divms.uiowa.edu [128.255.44.97]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o21Eb3kO019313 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 06:37:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from a-lnx000.divms.uiowa.edu (a-lnx000.divms.uiowa.edu [128.255.44.39]) (authenticated bits=0) by serv07.divms.uiowa.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o21EavJB021216 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 08:36:58 -0600 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=divms.uiowa.edu; s=divms; t=1267454218; bh=yX7kHbHXxNPWoWht4X/kBiRLxYAk9kHkummyhx/6av8=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References: In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Cm/Ibfh+ir5Dc72Fd8HaZ3J3EXszLRP/Cq1eXvImTDFvs/WaHCO1TYtNJ7ATyeAAn QVzCctP+mvCgFoIKJuEsc0DfwNUMbDEILH6UgUMceIWuvO42jV3S4970Ked8l9p1w9 a3HIMOi3kH0zjYalzNwHTrjd7SNAowocxtm+ZWFE= Message-ID: <4B8BD109.7000202@divms.uiowa.edu> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 08:36:57 -0600 From: Hugh Brown User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (X11/20090609) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sage-members@usenix.org" References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <2a03c5ff1002280821q747ed408ncafce5548e045611@mail.gmail.com> <4c7b1781002281416r7af0aab9x736e3818bae75896@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4c7b1781002281416r7af0aab9x736e3818bae75896@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DIVMS-Sent: tM5XmFTomdnIULr0ZWhGFw X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 128.255.44.22 X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at serv07.divms.uiowa.edu X-Virus-Status: Clean X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 14:37:07 -0000 Marc Farnum Rendino wrote: > On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Mike Diehn wrote: > >> You may also want to consider NoMachine (NX) and FreeNX... > > > I'm new to NoMachine NX (free) and haven't been able to fix a blank/black > screen (on the controlling machine) after authentication. > > I've tried controlling from different systems, looking at the logs, > searching the net and the NoMachine site, etc.; no luck - any > recommendations of NX communities to consult or debugging tactics? > > Thanks, > > Marc On NoMachine, you can use "nxserver --history " to get a sessionId. There should be a corresponding file in /usr/NX/var/db/closed/sessionId{...} if the session closed normally. If it failed it will be in /usr/NX/var/db/failed. Often though, we just clean out the ~/.nx directory on the machine running nxserver. If that doesn't work, we clean it out on the server again and the machine running the nxclient Hugh From mvgfr1@gmail.com Mon Mar 1 08:37:49 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o21GbnGr052108 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 08:37:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mvgfr1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com (mail-gy0-f169.google.com [209.85.160.169]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o21GbkWl023095 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 08:37:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by gye5 with SMTP id 5so40909gye.28 for ; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 08:37:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Mmpo23GC550iRuk2pZK2m2zQ5Dbozmv6x0ztdoCQe/s=; b=DfWrXSazddvSYFQpviJy5AnZ3GfhVFV06v/e/Lxak1vAnzskfDcV7uKshOJ8F7bFjN hjMRjq+EKVnFH4/M7Efw3m6sxU9/CvtrMJvwRo8HNuigGpaHPgtIyUClhuzmivpzxO91 Hb7+I5zynaPsx5xQh1B0n+o3nl4sG6ZbB+f2A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=lUWZfEJeRQjcEAaIDVrQKE6WvZYydENNB2oUrLzhcySxDXHZJXBD0g+ZLW/3dI1N+d Bluz+an+BY8xbSCpOIAf49jGX9Yv0TLg6XuN+9btaJ5Uej2j2A7hXl7EFwbXAQ7k3mv1 Xma6JtwJ4cghWETuVQhyZncjBl10dVs/R7Osc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.24.21 with SMTP id b21mr6571450ybj.201.1267461460976; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 08:37:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B8BD109.7000202@divms.uiowa.edu> References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <2a03c5ff1002280821q747ed408ncafce5548e045611@mail.gmail.com> <4c7b1781002281416r7af0aab9x736e3818bae75896@mail.gmail.com> <4B8BD109.7000202@divms.uiowa.edu> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 11:37:40 -0500 Message-ID: <4c7b1781003010837p5bda3a8doa5f0d71037b23731@mail.gmail.com> From: Marc Farnum Rendino To: Hugh Brown X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: "sage-members@usenix.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 16:37:49 -0000 On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 9:36 AM, Hugh Brown wrote: > > On NoMachine, you can use "nxserver --history " to get a > sessionId. There should be a corresponding file in > /usr/NX/var/db/closed/sessionId{...} if the session closed normally. If it > failed it will be in /usr/NX/var/db/failed. > OK; I'm looking through /usr/NX/var/db/ and: there's not much in "failed"; I see info in "running" that looks sane (while I have a session up, with just a black/blank screen), and then after closing a session, what's in "closed" looks sane. > Often though, we just clean out the ~/.nx directory on the machine running > nxserver. If that doesn't work, we clean it out on the server again and the > machine running the nxclient > Interesting; after renaming both, the first connection attempt failed; on the controlling machine, the window came up and then immediately disappeared - off to check those log... Thanks, Marc From allbery@ece.cmu.edu Mon Mar 1 09:13:41 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o21HDfjY052648 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 09:13:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu (BACHE.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.129.23]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o21HDcLh024277 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 09:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mress.kf8nh.com (static-72-77-17-40.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net [72.77.17.40]) (Authenticated sender: allbery@ECE.CMU.EDU) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22869A4; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:13:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <8F27EE6E-BF0E-499F-9FE5-A3E1443C26B6@ece.cmu.edu> From: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" To: Marc Farnum Rendino In-Reply-To: <4c7b1781003010837p5bda3a8doa5f0d71037b23731@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-42--753898159" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:13:14 -0500 References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <2a03c5ff1002280821q747ed408ncafce5548e045611@mail.gmail.com> <4c7b1781002281416r7af0aab9x736e3818bae75896@mail.gmail.com> <4B8BD109.7000202@divms.uiowa.edu> <4c7b1781003010837p5bda3a8doa5f0d71037b23731@mail.gmail.com> X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.0 (v56) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: "sage-members@usenix.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 17:13:42 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-42--753898159 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 1, 2010, at 11:37 , Marc Farnum Rendino wrote: > OK; I'm looking through /usr/NX/var/db/ and: there's not much in > "failed"; I > see info in "running" that looks sane (while I have a session up, > with just > a black/blank screen), and then after closing a session, what's in > "closed" > looks sane. This makes me think you have an empty session somehow. My limited experimentation with NX (making it play nicely with AFS looked like more work than I was willing to put into it) doesn't let me suggest where to look about that, though. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH --Apple-Mail-42--753898159 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkuL9bUACgkQIn7hlCsL25Vb3wCfRMsBE8FrXr/EMy6Xqho/6HUa 1GYAn2p+ABlK4XiQjfGCt2pG42Liz6ES =RlkZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-42--753898159-- From thompson.di@gmail.com Mon Mar 1 09:23:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o21HNiR5052846 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 09:23:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thompson.di@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f228.google.com (mail-fx0-f228.google.com [209.85.220.228]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o21HNdjY025067 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 09:23:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm28 with SMTP id 28so645155fxm.39 for ; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 09:23:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=OYJQyL2gduRh1DOlRRXyaBt7KcWm2sPxV+o/5fPWWtw=; b=LLWQsyr9zoV5nsurHn9+/rB3NL1VPUiIZFoBI/B04bpJCJZq1MNjuChcpB3epNepIa FwLV4RaKl+aY7JHQnuW11j6RkSpVUrjpgDHkQQqbjm6PpzDAg3zuPCNsamQj1Y4Lwsy7 ss+vq0H5yxDZvFMWKNYtEGyw2aD6x8saDMkRQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=k+hrM2ZTXdWIHHXOWewI10s7INGdacGv1YGEj955iPOxfYrwN1zHAqf4BWvrtY7ToZ ZDul5KtZDAJT0tK7+ONuf9rl/i5ZfMBvkFoKQOFLTpk66EajCeRAgNyitRzx/j7ah3BW BptRFYdqwQPGKxvtwvBBmLos+0KbF9h+bYhPI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.87.51.9 with SMTP id d9mr7813837fgk.35.1267464213477; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 09:23:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 11:23:33 -0600 Message-ID: From: Douglas Thompson To: sage-members@sage.org X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] AIX Performance Monitoring X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 17:23:44 -0000 We have a mixed Unix/Linux environment with AIX, Solaris 10, and Red Hat Linux and we're looking for a web accessible monitoring tool on the order of Cacti but preferably native to AIX with the ability to distribute agents to non-AIX clients. Anyone have any recommendations? Thanks, -- Douglas Thompson --- Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? - Patrick Henry From robert@timetraveller.org Mon Mar 1 09:45:23 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o21HjMdx053173 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 09:45:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@timetraveller.org) Received: from capella.opentrend.net (capella.opentrend.net [64.22.125.103]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o21HjF8E025558 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 09:45:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by capella.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 06EC9137D04; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:45:09 -0500 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on capella.opentrend.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 Received: from castor.opentrend.net (castor.opentrend.net [192.168.120.16]) by capella.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC717DD6E for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:45:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 92AB46DE483; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 17:45:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C3DE683716 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:45:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:45:18 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Brockway X-X-Sender: robert@castor.opentrend.net To: SAGE Members List Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Subject: [SAGE] CNAMEs and MXs X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 17:45:23 -0000 Hi all. I've managed DNS for a long time and am well aware of the prohibition on mapping an MX (or other RRs) to a CNAME in DNS. A couple of RFCs specifically prohibit this behaviour: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1034 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1912 And it isn't just a theoretical problem. There are plenty of reports of mapping an MX to a CNAME causing address resolution problems for a sending MTA. Microsoft have a good discussion of the issue here: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/153001 So anyway... It recently came to my attention that a large email provider[1] recommends that their clients map the client's MX to a CNAME in the provider's domain. I understand they do this so they can change the underlying A record(s) without having to notify clients. Is it still a problem to map the MX to a CNAME or has MTA behaviour standardised sufficiently that this is no longer a practical issue? [1] that I'm currently dealing with. Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert@timetraveller.org IRC: Solver Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy From robert@opentrend.net Mon Mar 1 09:43:27 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o21HhRdP053086 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 09:43:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@opentrend.net) Received: from procyon.opentrend.net (li144-209.members.linode.com [109.74.197.209]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o21HhNoT025515 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 09:43:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by procyon.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 33600CE68; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:43:13 -0500 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on procyon.opentrend.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, AWL autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 Received: from castor.opentrend.net (unknown [192.168.120.16]) by procyon.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BEACCE62 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:43:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EE7AE7084B3; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 17:43:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2A6B7084AF for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:43:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:43:25 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Brockway To: SAGE Members List Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 10:04:02 -0800 Subject: [SAGE] CNAMEs and MXs X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 17:43:27 -0000 Hi all. I've managed DNS for a long time and am well aware of the prohibition on mapping an MX (or other RRs) to a CNAME in DNS. A couple of RFCs specifically prohibit this behaviour: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1034 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1912 And it isn't just a theoretical problem. There are plenty of reports of mapping an MX to a CNAME causing address resolution problems for a sending MTA. Microsoft have a good discussion of the issue here: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/153001 So anyway... It recently came to my attention that a large email provider[1] recommends that their clients map the client's MX to a CNAME in the provider's domain. I understand they do this so they can change the underlying A record(s) without having to notify clients. Is it still a problem to map the MX to a CNAME or has MTA behaviour standardised sufficiently that this is no longer a practical issue? [1] that I'm currently dealing with. Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert@timetraveller.org IRC: Solver Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy From kurin@delete.org Mon Mar 1 10:06:48 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o21I6mhh053569 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 10:06:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurin@delete.org) Received: from carbon.delete.org (carbon.delete.org [173.203.205.179]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o21I6jn8026385 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 10:06:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from carbon.delete.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by carbon.delete.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D160B19D590; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 13:06:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by carbon.delete.org (Postfix, from userid 1006) id BB67C19D591; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 13:06:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 13:06:44 -0500 From: Toby Burress To: Robert Brockway Message-ID: <20100301180644.GA12346@carbon.delete.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] CNAMEs and MXs X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 18:06:49 -0000 On Mon, Mar 01, 2010 at 12:45:18PM -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: > Is it still a problem to map the MX to a CNAME or has MTA behaviour > standardised sufficiently that this is no longer a practical issue? I had an MX mapped to a CNAME for several years and had to switch back when a client's spam-filtering provider started rejecting email because of it. From dredd@megacity.org Mon Mar 1 11:50:17 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o21JoHrs055421 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 11:50:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o21JoEV0029290 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 11:50:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA46B1F70026; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 14:44:58 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ylTNnFLfqDCq; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 14:44:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.123.139] (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 050DA1F70008; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 14:44:46 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: <20100301180644.GA12346@carbon.delete.org> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 14:44:45 -0500 Message-Id: References: <20100301180644.GA12346@carbon.delete.org> To: Toby Burress X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o21JoHrs055421 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] CNAMEs and MXs X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:50:18 -0000 On Mar 1, 2010, at 1:06 PM, Toby Burress wrote: > I had an MX mapped to a CNAME for several years and had to switch back > when a client's spam-filtering provider started rejecting email because > of it. I was going to say something similar, asking if you wouldn't mind telling me what domains we were talking about so I could get them into rfc-ignorant.org. :-) Just say no to MX->CNAMEs...... Cheers, D From tal@whatexit.org Mon Mar 1 11:51:09 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o21Jp9KH055467 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 11:51:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-qy0-f171.google.com (mail-qy0-f171.google.com [209.85.221.171]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o21Jp6ev029320 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 11:51:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk1 with SMTP id 1so1704692qyk.0 for ; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 11:51:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.52.211 with SMTP id j19mr2685883qag.301.1267473059833; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 11:50:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 14:50:59 -0500 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91003011150w3292fdd9nd838597e13beafc4@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: Robert Brockway Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o21Jp9KH055467 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] CNAMEs and MXs X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:51:10 -0000 On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Robert Brockway wrote: > Hi all.  I've managed DNS for a long time and am well aware of the > prohibition on mapping an MX (or other RRs) to a CNAME in DNS. > > A couple of RFCs specifically prohibit this behaviour: > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1034 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1912 > > And it isn't just a theoretical problem.  There are plenty of reports of > mapping an MX to a CNAME causing address resolution problems for a sending > MTA. > > Microsoft have a good discussion of the issue here: > > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/153001 > > So anyway... > > It recently came to my attention that a large email provider[1] recommends > that their clients map the client's MX to a CNAME in the provider's domain. >   I understand they do this so they can change the underlying A record(s) > without having to notify clients. > > Is it still a problem to map the MX to a CNAME or has MTA behaviour > standardised sufficiently that this is no longer a practical issue? It is nobel that the vendor doesn't want their customers to have to change local configurations all the time. However, there's a better way to do that. Multiple A records can point to the same machine. Therefore, they can add A-records that are used in customer configurations. ourmx1.vendor.com. IN A 1.1.1.1 ourmx2.vendor.com. IN A 1.1.1.2 ourmx3.vendor.com. IN A 1.1.1.3 (even though 1.1.1.1, 1.1.1.2, and 1.1.1.3 all have hostnames that are unrelated). And customers do: @ IN MX 10 ourmx1.vendor.com. @ IN MX 10 ourmx2.vendor.com. @ IN MX 20 ourmx3.vendor.com. However, that's a technical suggestion. Your actual problem is social: How do you tell a vendor that you want them to make a big change to their system when you are a small customer. In this case, it is somewhat easy since it won't involve changes on the client end. They simply have to change the MX records into MX records with the same name. If the servers do change, they simply point the A records to the new IP address. Tom -- http://EverythingSysadmin.com -- http://www.TomOnTime.com Computer and network administrators... Spread the word! LOPSA New Jersey Professional IT Community Conference New Brunswick, NJ, May 7-8, 2010 -- http://picconf.org From jens@quux.de Mon Mar 1 12:09:33 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o21K9XQJ055819 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:09:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o21K9TC4029880 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:09:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16868 invoked by uid 0); 1 Mar 2010 21:09:22 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 16865, pid: 16866, t: 0.0575s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 1 Mar 2010 21:09:22 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1NmBvb-0002jD-00 for ; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 21:09:19 +0100 From: Jens Link To: sage-members@sage.org Organization: - References: X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 21:09:19 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Douglas Thompson's message of "Mon, 1 Mar 2010 11:23:33 -0600") Message-ID: <87eik3n6s0.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] AIX Performance Monitoring X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 20:09:34 -0000 Douglas Thompson writes: > We have a mixed Unix/Linux environment with AIX, Solaris 10, and Red Hat > Linux and we're looking for a web accessible monitoring tool on the order of > Cacti but preferably native to AIX with the ability to distribute agents to > non-AIX clients. Anyone have any recommendations? Nagios / Icinga? Should run on AIX as well. If "native to AIX" is really necessary my guess would be that there is always Tivoli for lots of Dollars. cheers, Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Mon Mar 1 13:06:25 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o21L6Puc056915 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 13:06:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o21L6MGW001209 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 13:06:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o21L6SrI015759; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:06:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:06:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <50068.207.61.230.154.1267477588.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91003011150w3292fdd9nd838597e13beafc4@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d49b3d91003011150w3292fdd9nd838597e13beafc4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:06:28 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Tom Limoncelli" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] CNAMEs and MXs X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 21:06:26 -0000 On Mon, March 1, 2010 14:50, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > However, that's a technical suggestion. Your actual problem is > social: How do you tell a vendor that you want them to make a big > change to their system when you are a small customer. Name names and hope a large public embarrassment is something they hope to avoid? PHK of FreeBSD and Varnish fame had an issue with DLink products flooding his NTP server, and the only way he finally got it to go away is for it to show up on Slashdot. This may be the last step in a dialogue though. From prvs=0676c9503b=phil.pennock@globnix.org Mon Mar 1 13:25:09 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o21LP9MB057279 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 13:25:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from prvs=0676c9503b=phil.pennock@globnix.org) Received: from mx.spodhuis.org (redoubt.spodhuis.org [94.142.241.89]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o21LP6OI001786 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 13:25:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=globnix.org; s=d200912; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=mPjCgNvYTHnqIkJmz4Yq9DGUH8SOYPw7579fhKJuQ84=; b=QZpWGA+wf7sWycgkxV+Bp4Xj3TNZ4ZcialQaQMMw0mItWXBXZeX+DJVQzrKy8uLLya2eXrkkHhhhdkcvnLLy6hNskiAloQroFftiyOlw4Y4W9Y88Yns/c0U+75fpngDNBWh7M8/HBV8HcGYZvK/wIDiBFIZmDB66Axn1Vgt9m0Y=; Received: by smtp.spodhuis.org with local id 1NmD6u-000CjF-LW; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 21:25:04 +0000 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 13:25:04 -0800 From: Phil Pennock To: Robert Brockway Message-ID: <20100301212504.GA48825@redoubt.spodhuis.org> Mail-Followup-To: Robert Brockway , SAGE Members List References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] CNAMEs and MXs X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 21:25:10 -0000 On 2010-03-01 at 12:45 -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: > It recently came to my attention that a large email provider[1] recommends that > their clients map the client's MX to a CNAME in the provider's domain. I > understand they do this so they can change the underlying A record(s) without > having to notify clients. Uhh ... there's no need for the hostnames used in MX to be in the same domain as the MX record itself. Just get the clients to use a hostname provided by the provider and then the A's can be changed at the provider's slightest whim. Eg, { dig +short -t mx pennocks.org } to see how hosted mail works with Google Apps for your Domain. If it scales for Google, it'll probably scale elsewhere. -Phil From robert@timetraveller.org Mon Mar 1 14:14:37 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o21MEapd058146 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 14:14:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@timetraveller.org) Received: from procyon.opentrend.net (li144-209.members.linode.com [109.74.197.209]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o21MEXY7002818 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 14:14:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by procyon.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1004) id AE827CE68; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 17:14:24 -0500 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on procyon.opentrend.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 Received: from castor.opentrend.net (unknown [192.168.120.16]) by procyon.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BFA6CE62 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 17:14:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 087577084B8; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:14:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 020C26DE5D7 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 17:14:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 17:14:37 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Brockway X-X-Sender: robert@castor.opentrend.net To: SAGE Members List In-Reply-To: <20100301212504.GA48825@redoubt.spodhuis.org> Message-ID: References: <20100301212504.GA48825@redoubt.spodhuis.org> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] CNAMEs and MXs X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 22:14:37 -0000 On Mon, 1 Mar 2010, Phil Pennock wrote: Hi Phil. > Uhh ... there's no need for the hostnames used in MX to be in the same > domain as the MX record itself. Just get the clients to use a hostname Quite right and that's how I've always done things. Thanks everyone. Well I'm convinced that CNAME & MX mixing continues to be a bad idea and is completely avoidable. We're going to be following up with the email provider. Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert@timetraveller.org IRC: Solver Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy From mvgfr1@gmail.com Mon Mar 1 16:00:30 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2200UtJ059611 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:00:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mvgfr1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gx0-f210.google.com (mail-gx0-f210.google.com [209.85.217.210]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2200Rl9005772 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:00:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by gxk2 with SMTP id 2so1622049gxk.10 for ; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 16:00:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=FjnYa++RNKzodDDHh5hD/yqUcjfased/rDTo3mmVCwc=; b=pViPPyLX1KvseQ9NHOoHvBCqLXPbs7s8BlBK8k9It3Mmcz4uvRwVHeWKv6CTWqMwSM uIzevwvfpS2A/JeQU7d39AkzGzPLQSrJgmjbid4kaU0FpQxGgVHPZhXPugia6AITWoYu Xx7g4dvUBaKznfeJpIqHC8gvDiXbRCJa+iMVc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=mmOH3klDRSBApvG1yhaYFuyHZj/Cgz2LM2OFUtGvUMgIxQRX3XHRtRLgI22o1+jU/f t85XG7VzMdP2eFjhNk3ZM1aq2M5+z+WdWqaIaGVFNVn3HXxkVnTb298nUdO8WsTzdNcP x0W7sANth3hDsuEe0wcsRpgFe7pi7+IeuypMk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.5.5 with SMTP id 5mr4982798ybe.71.1267488022430; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 16:00:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8F27EE6E-BF0E-499F-9FE5-A3E1443C26B6@ece.cmu.edu> References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <2a03c5ff1002280821q747ed408ncafce5548e045611@mail.gmail.com> <4c7b1781002281416r7af0aab9x736e3818bae75896@mail.gmail.com> <4B8BD109.7000202@divms.uiowa.edu> <4c7b1781003010837p5bda3a8doa5f0d71037b23731@mail.gmail.com> <8F27EE6E-BF0E-499F-9FE5-A3E1443C26B6@ece.cmu.edu> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 19:00:22 -0500 Message-ID: <4c7b1781003011600q3bd4f522rdb951b10dbb8c377@mail.gmail.com> From: Marc Farnum Rendino To: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: "sage-members@usenix.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 00:00:31 -0000 On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH < allbery@ece.cmu.edu> wrote: > This makes me think you have an empty session somehow. > Strange; what's an "empty session"? > My limited experimentation with NX (making it play nicely with AFS looked > like more work than I was willing to put into it) doesn't let me suggest > where to look about that, though. > Well, that's something to go on anyway though; thanks! - Marc From allbery@ece.cmu.edu Mon Mar 1 16:05:35 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2205ZWo059667 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:05:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu (BACHE.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.129.23]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2205VBl005891 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:05:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mress.kf8nh.com (static-72-77-17-40.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net [72.77.17.40]) (Authenticated sender: allbery@ECE.CMU.EDU) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BAE6A9; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 19:05:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <276240A9-7F32-4124-A8E8-C08591ADA96A@ece.cmu.edu> From: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" To: Marc Farnum Rendino In-Reply-To: <4c7b1781003011600q3bd4f522rdb951b10dbb8c377@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-117--729187893" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 19:05:04 -0500 References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <2a03c5ff1002280821q747ed408ncafce5548e045611@mail.gmail.com> <4c7b1781002281416r7af0aab9x736e3818bae75896@mail.gmail.com> <4B8BD109.7000202@divms.uiowa.edu> <4c7b1781003010837p5bda3a8doa5f0d71037b23731@mail.gmail.com> <8F27EE6E-BF0E-499F-9FE5-A3E1443C26B6@ece.cmu.edu> <4c7b1781003011600q3bd4f522rdb951b10dbb8c377@mail.gmail.com> X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.0 (v56) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: "sage-members@usenix.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 00:05:35 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-117--729187893 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 1, 2010, at 19:00 , Marc Farnum Rendino wrote: > On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH > wrote: > This makes me think you have an empty session somehow. > > Strange; what's an "empty session"? Nothing running in it, like when you somehow mss up your X11 config to not launch a window manager so you just get a stippled halftone screen with a black default-X11 cursor in the middle. NX defaults to a black background instead. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH --Apple-Mail-117--729187893 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkuMVkgACgkQIn7hlCsL25WuVACff9LlNZs6YDOMAyudguAPFsiU LJAAn3KKa+wHP8Cy4TN+DZ+vvaM9zlX3 =IKm+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-117--729187893-- From mvgfr1@gmail.com Mon Mar 1 16:17:34 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o220HY2h059763 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:17:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mvgfr1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yx0-f181.google.com (mail-yx0-f181.google.com [209.85.210.181]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o220HVM0006125 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by yxe11 with SMTP id 11so1308646yxe.2 for ; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 16:17:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=5/x2c49aHJrBvgy8iiq9FJ0Wxd9hkmbvZ3mE3D7CDDw=; b=yBxwKkjgKRQcWKF2Z+otlBZvH8tCO1FVEyFtgz0mgH88B4FdsuHkz/zV2L31jvo77U X+0bBET/rdI70Nhtod82B/jbUP/hda98XDTf0H7HYqqL/E/+eBXAbUFKH9ieYbh7948j XjWp4GVvqeCoEYR0l8kDRhkwgpeMZNh5Pgkok= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=YZbRIi/dZgzHzlzRW1llQJOnFPiSOI8eSSS7p190q98DLHl8Ix/4dmLpi0l1e9LC6y 4NICl9V0T9/CUkz7gnPipVEiQyIRXxFIOinvSsIiH0wyJcn/ZIbHg4M1dhyXqkNIQNm3 ItqznQVmOYO9Coi9Y8pzosmrh5bndvYqgbVdY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.239.13 with SMTP id m13mr2832490ybh.242.1267489046243; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 16:17:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <276240A9-7F32-4124-A8E8-C08591ADA96A@ece.cmu.edu> References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> <2a03c5ff1002280821q747ed408ncafce5548e045611@mail.gmail.com> <4c7b1781002281416r7af0aab9x736e3818bae75896@mail.gmail.com> <4B8BD109.7000202@divms.uiowa.edu> <4c7b1781003010837p5bda3a8doa5f0d71037b23731@mail.gmail.com> <8F27EE6E-BF0E-499F-9FE5-A3E1443C26B6@ece.cmu.edu> <4c7b1781003011600q3bd4f522rdb951b10dbb8c377@mail.gmail.com> <276240A9-7F32-4124-A8E8-C08591ADA96A@ece.cmu.edu> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 19:17:26 -0500 Message-ID: <4c7b1781003011617y29849e57h9920e704c6c3ae12@mail.gmail.com> From: Marc Farnum Rendino To: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=8% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: "sage-members@usenix.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 00:17:35 -0000 On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH < allbery@ece.cmu.edu> wrote: > Nothing running in it, like when you somehow mss up your X11 config to not > launch a window manager so you just get a stippled halftone screen with a > black default-X11 cursor in the middle. NX defaults to a black background > instead. > Makes sense - I'm (mostly) new to X11 too (amazingly), so lots of learning curve. :) Any recommendations for a bootcamp to get up-to-speed on X11? Thanks, Marc From joey@q7.com Tue Mar 2 10:55:27 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o22ItRvk074707 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 10:55:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joey@q7.com) Received: from q7.q7.com (q7.q7.com [69.168.48.248]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o22ItM3e009326 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 10:55:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from q7.q7.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by q7.q7.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id o22IbwP7014627 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 10:37:58 -0800 Received: from localhost (joey@localhost) by q7.q7.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id o22IbwlJ014622 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 10:37:58 -0800 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 10:37:58 -0800 (PST) From: Joe Pruett To: sage-members@usenix.org Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LRH 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: [SAGE] looking for help with at&t's private blacklist X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 18:55:28 -0000 over a year ago, we received a new ip block from arin. unfortunately, the block had been previously owned by adelphia and/or comcast so it was on a number of blacklists. most lists were easy to get off, sorbs took a couple of months (their infrastructure kept resurrecting old info), godaddy took almost a year before a tech was finally convinced to remove it all. but at&t just won't budge. i've tried interacting with them numerous times, but it is always a different tech and usually after 1-2 replies, they just stop responding. we're renumbering from some upstream ip space and are now getting to the colocation customers that will be most impacted by this and manually requesting removal one ip at a time is just getting tiresome. i've thought about setting up a server to run through all the ips, send a test email, and then respond to the bounce via the at&t web site, but that seems likely to get me in more hot water, so i've refrained. so, does anyone out there have any connections inside at&t that might have any ability to assist? or maybe have any other brilliant ideas? From twilliams@answerfinancial.com Tue Mar 2 20:23:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o234NWAS081789 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 20:23:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from twilliams@answerfinancial.com) Received: from mail01.answerfinancial.com (mail01.answerfinancial.com [12.107.3.241]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o234NT4j007445 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 20:23:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail01.answerfinancial.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C765E1A19BB for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 19:53:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail01.answerfinancial.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail01.answerfinancial.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AO4LKRmzMNlh for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 19:53:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from AFI03362 (afi03362.answer.answerfinancial.com [10.6.44.150]) by mail01.answerfinancial.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 19:53:30 -0800 (PST) From: "Todd Williams" To: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 19:53:30 -0800 Message-ID: <000001caba85$167518f0$435f4ad0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acq6hRX7fVIpLqmCQB2h9S3Xmv6OBQ== Content-Language: en-us X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] metered 3-phase PDUs to fit in 36U rack X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 04:23:32 -0000 I'm fixing some issues in a computer room that has a raised floor and a suspended tile ceiling. Due to ceiling height, I have been advised to use server racks no taller than 6 feet (36U) to meet code requirements (for the pre-action sprinklers). We want two "zero U" (vertical) metered PDUs from multiple circuits to each rack. The vast majority of equipment can support 120v/208v/240v, but there are a few little devices that still required 120V. (Plus some folks paranoia about not having it ubiquitously available). I can find 3-phase 208V PDUs that fit in 36U racks - even dual-input ones like the HP AF503A (google it). And I can even find 3-phase 208V PDUs that provide both 208V and 120V outputs. But I can't find a metered 208+120V output PDU less than 64" tall or so. Anybody know of such a thing? -Todd Williams From doug@will.to Tue Mar 2 20:40:17 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o234eER2081959 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 20:40:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o234e3dB007872 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 20:40:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.52] (h-68-164-136-126.nycmny83.static.covad.net [68.164.136.126]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id o234diwk029167 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 2 Mar 2010 23:39:49 -0500 Message-ID: <4B8DE810.1070804@will.to> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 23:39:44 -0500 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Todd Williams , Sage Members References: <000001caba85$167518f0$435f4ad0$@com> In-Reply-To: <000001caba85$167518f0$435f4ad0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Tue, 02 Mar 2010 23:39:51 -0500 (EST) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] metered 3-phase PDUs to fit in 36U rack X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 04:40:18 -0000 Todd Williams wrote: > I'm fixing some issues in a computer room that has a raised floor and a > suspended tile ceiling. > > Due to ceiling height, I have been advised to use server racks no taller > than 6 feet (36U) to meet code requirements (for the pre-action sprinklers). > > > > We want two "zero U" (vertical) metered PDUs from multiple circuits to each > rack. > > The vast majority of equipment can support 120v/208v/240v, but there are a > few little devices that still required 120V. (Plus some folks paranoia > about not having it ubiquitously available). > > > > I can find 3-phase 208V PDUs that fit in 36U racks - even dual-input ones > like the HP AF503A (google it). > > And I can even find 3-phase 208V PDUs that provide both 208V and 120V > outputs. > > But I can't find a metered 208+120V output PDU less than 64" tall or so. > Anybody know of such a thing? > > > > -Todd Williams > > a 0U PDU that is less than 64"? That might be tough. You might be able to get Geist to configure these for you. They have a bunch of templates and can put components together for special situations like this. They may have something that will fit your needs, and they do do customizations. Otherwise, you'll be forced to go with rackmount PDUs and eat up a couple more U's of your space, I fear. From davebahm@gmail.com Wed Mar 3 13:30:14 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o23LUEBf098024 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2010 13:30:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davebahm@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gy0-f176.google.com (mail-gy0-f176.google.com [209.85.160.176]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o23LUBsZ009334 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2010 13:30:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by gyb13 with SMTP id 13so804821gyb.35 for ; Wed, 03 Mar 2010 13:30:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=032Y90v8GkN+J8YAghSmnG4safiTBTWWGgIvIUGvtSY=; b=xL97vt85rPKOtO5QW346TQeO/7teFJBfRtwUBfopTiTDmUK+U0lligRNVLi6sCZqc9 a8v4hVkIZYY9HSlP07c99WGq+ZDncUMqyoLC5xNKh2l8w7dnNyu7gEx+sB7Ig9m7oktT 3i5kIFgT1CYKEP1/uJInHOsyMzLijr84W6lrE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=k4mDSiT+luBz1NqTNHmTEvcMDIBu13AuuSWeSTZ0MgEn+bSMCLU43OVD0ca19JdSTB qxJjo2npVRpZ7YCJu63uAHUofOomXUp3Kp3vYhAy1WifPQNqXheiCHsqJ2sIKwbtehPD WijSkrmwX9/xb5QRW2T2tUCkRrna6oWS0BWtw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.101.169.28 with SMTP id w28mr2316765ano.223.1267651801597; Wed, 03 Mar 2010 13:30:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 16:30:01 -0500 Message-ID: From: David Bahm To: SAGE mailing list X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] NAS/SAN Design Resources? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 21:30:15 -0000 Hi all, We're expecting some travel this year to a branch office to upgrade our storage which is in desperate need of expansion (whose isn't right?). I'm looking for perhaps white papers or other resources on guidelines for designing storage, particularly in terms of disk comparison (SATA vs SAS vs SCSI), planning for growth and administration. We're a SMB that still operates on a lot of DAS and the growth rates are becoming cumbersome - so while dropping $$$ on a really nice SCSI SAN may run really well - it may potentially be overkill for the I/O our users generate and be more hassle for expansion later. Thanks for any resources or words of wisdom! -David From dhanks@gmail.com Wed Mar 3 18:43:17 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o242hHPm004073 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2010 18:43:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com (mail-pw0-f41.google.com [209.85.160.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o242hEBl015297 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2010 18:43:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwj9 with SMTP id 9so1236341pwj.28 for ; Wed, 03 Mar 2010 18:43:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=6rWyi8P+pR6q5cmhVQOHENPtmJ9aSgqStuw1JjKdGuo=; b=Os/VwzXQXAi/8J7iLwGDFKBG9prWKK13JwDavNgEHoocGSMNYUq96rOJxefnF4j+Zk nMIRIwWer6U+VcrnvdaM85KMJ37ZcOhwXfuY4V0/9rwf2Gm1OFnRGh1Y1oNCknJi3zm3 b+9r3cDKqUCFsOihz0kGDy67axNyHK43fUZw0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=V1LAD+Tn2vfzzzV/Caz9V778XqQWsV5bRN9PxqeBLuDB15p5Fzb9RLlGDXsXVEmSJo xnFQ82aa7rxAEzXiMH4e+d2M0DtKpiAaZmATxu6HjzWrLcTO4ixWglbZgjQ2VmDtAOj6 HGLaYy6Df2t0V/8NtbHWT4jf4WYEIAr3iVVsk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.65.2 with SMTP id s2mr1481681wak.11.1267670589106; Wed, 03 Mar 2010 18:43:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <000001caba85$167518f0$435f4ad0$@com> References: <000001caba85$167518f0$435f4ad0$@com> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 18:43:09 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1003031843i18122bfkf9e6e4b26bf06f58@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: Todd Williams X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=3% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] metered 3-phase PDUs to fit in 36U rack X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 02:43:17 -0000 Chatsworth just recently acquired a power company and offers customized PDUs that would meet your requirements. On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 7:53 PM, Todd Williams wrote: > I'm fixing some issues in a computer room that has a raised floor and a > suspended tile ceiling. > > Due to ceiling height, I have been advised to use server racks no taller > than 6 feet (36U) to meet code requirements (for the pre-action > sprinklers). > > > > We want two "zero U" (vertical) metered PDUs from multiple circuits to each > rack. > > The vast majority of equipment can support 120v/208v/240v, but there are a > few little devices that still required 120V. (Plus some folks paranoia > about not having it ubiquitously available). > > > > I can find 3-phase 208V PDUs that fit in 36U racks - even dual-input ones > like the HP AF503A (google it). > > And I can even find 3-phase 208V PDUs that provide both 208V and 120V > outputs. > > But I can't find a metered 208+120V output PDU less than 64" tall or so. > Anybody know of such a thing? > > > > -Todd Williams > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From timetrap@gmail.com Thu Mar 4 17:48:03 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o251m3ln025781 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2010 17:48:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f184.google.com (mail-pz0-f184.google.com [209.85.222.184]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o251m0pG021564 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2010 17:48:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by pzk14 with SMTP id 14so351611pzk.26 for ; Thu, 04 Mar 2010 17:47:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oKodFG51x0Wv4pyjVtK92psnWAJGKn50zQlTUNQ0gA0=; b=S5rJXkhI2KOsuHMoaroQvXaaHVw0hWLF2UDMJ4bau+YY4lclSHdcf1gRWoAFbmTJ9a jsJaJo1J+v8GTgr0aSMcwJxaDUp5BwG0ARGvR/m25Q5GWOVkHQdnjsz5+te00WWnStMT MsPLPgkK7qY/Rv7ARUQdu+9HzZdYJtfDfol8U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=F2PyC8rpx6vm3Y7FQYY2xVjBng3tIVjKJHmMPS3DueJgZiOf31y24mJ4tBMP7pqsFg /fRE90uBOblO3LeTQ1HtRflkxLfIKQABp01pfynipWNcaL9Scg5rNr7RiUZDltn4M2lr BYpjf3xJh1qbG4dKmR3FpLqOnueFag3AltPCA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.152.8 with SMTP id z8mr153408wfd.230.1267753674760; Thu, 04 Mar 2010 17:47:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20100227121702.A14569@gecko.reptiles.org> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 20:47:54 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 20e4b08f1433af57 Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: Kurt Buff Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o251m3ln025781 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dups for pings? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 01:48:03 -0000 Yeah ... $work had an non-isolated windows load balanced cluster, the multicast LAN traffic that it generated was immense. Not pretty. You really need to isolate these clusters from the network. On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Kurt Buff wrote: > On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 09:17, Cat Okita wrote: >> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010, Kurt Buff wrote: >>> >>> So, being the helpful fellow that I am, I notified them of this, and >>> got back this answer: >>> >>>    "This is nothing to worry about it has been this way for years. >>>    For load balancing we use Windows Network Load Balancing. >>>    Each server in the cluster has a Main IP address and a virtually >>>    bound IP address.  When the cluster IP address is ping'd a >>>    ping response is sent out for both assigned IP address's." >>> >>> Huh? Is this really expected and "good" behavior? >> >> It's expected behaviour -- I'm not going to comment about whether it's >> actually "good" behaviour... > > > > ewwwww... > > > http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc738894%28WS.10%29.aspx > "In multicast mode, Network Load Balancing can limit switch flooding > by providing Internet Group Management Protocol (IGMP) support. > Network Load Balancing does not control any incoming IP traffic other > than TCP and UDP traffic for specified ports and IGMP traffic in > multicast mode. It does not filter other IP protocols (for example, > ICMP or ARP), except as described below. Be aware that you should > expect to see duplicate responses from certain point-to-point TCP/IP > applications (such as ping) when the cluster IP address is used. If > required, these applications can use the dedicated IP address for each > host to avoid this behavior." > > Kurt > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From dnb@ccs.neu.edu Fri Mar 5 11:24:33 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o25JOXsq041043 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:24:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dnb@ccs.neu.edu) Received: from zimbra.ccs.neu.edu (zimbra.ccs.neu.edu [129.10.116.59]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o25JOUaw022273 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.ccs.neu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85323F5C005 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:24:24 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.ccs.neu.edu Received: from zimbra.ccs.neu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.ccs.neu.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R9NpH5Tw4G95 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:24:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from omphaloskepsis.ccs.neu.edu (omphaloskepsis.ccs.neu.edu [129.10.116.223]) by zimbra.ccs.neu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51BB3F5C004 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:24:24 -0500 (EST) From: "David N. Blank-Edelman" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:24:23 -0500 Message-Id: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> To: SAGE Members Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager; whitelist Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o25JOXsq041043 Subject: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 19:24:34 -0000 Hi- I'm just about to have a Unix sysadmin position open up here working for me at a university in Boston when I realized that my current understanding of the best place to advertise the position is way out of date. I've had very low turn-over in my group, so the last time I had to go through this process for this kind of job was some seven-ish years ago. My scanty recollection is that the large job sites aren't a particularly good source for candidates. Is that still true? Any place you'd recommend I post the position? Thanks! -- dNb From jboris@adphila.org Fri Mar 5 11:42:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o25JgiAw041395 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:42:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jboris@adphila.org) Received: from chat2.adphila.org (chat2.adphila.org [64.9.9.80]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o25JgfZI022603 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:42:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw1.adphila.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chat2.adphila.org (Spam & Virus Firewall) with ESMTP id 9A2B933C41E for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from gw1.adphila.org ([172.19.2.123]) by chat2.adphila.org with ESMTP id lCHs9tB9PXMFGcrj for ; Fri, 05 Mar 2010 14:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from AOC-MTA by gw1.adphila.org with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 05 Mar 2010 14:42:35 -0500 Message-Id: <4B911853.2594.002B.0@adphila.org> X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 7.0.1 Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 14:42:27 -0500 From: "John BORIS" To: "David N. Blank-Edelman" , "SAGE Members" References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> In-Reply-To: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 19:42:44 -0000 The SAGE and LOPSA job boards are two that come to mind. Although I don't do the hiring or interviewing here I have posted jobs to these two sites for Admins but I am not sure what type of response our HR department got from those lists. John J. Boris, Sr. JEN-A-SyS Administrator Archdiocese of Philadelphia "Remember! That light at the end of the tunnel Just might be the headlight of an oncoming train!" >>> "David N. Blank-Edelman" 3/5/2010 2:24 PM >>> Hi- I'm just about to have a Unix sysadmin position open up here working for me at a university in Boston when I realized that my current understanding of the best place to advertise the position is way out of date. I've had very low turn-over in my group, so the last time I had to go through this process for this kind of job was some seven-ish years ago. My scanty recollection is that the large job sites aren't a particularly good source for candidates. Is that still true? Any place you'd recommend I post the position? Thanks! -- dNb _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From rskiadmin@chycoski.com Fri Mar 5 11:55:29 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o25JtSSi041610 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:55:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rskiadmin@chycoski.com) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o25JtQvE022827 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:55:28 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAJ/wkEurR7H+/2dsb2JhbACbSXOeU5hnhHcEgxc X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,588,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="492336997" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Mar 2010 19:55:20 +0000 Received: from [10.19.54.151] (sjc-rac-8716.cisco.com [10.19.54.151]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o25JtK1Y020890; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 19:55:20 GMT Message-ID: <4B9161A8.1000901@chycoski.com> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 11:55:20 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100216 Thunderbird/3.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John BORIS References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> <4B911853.2594.002B.0@adphila.org> In-Reply-To: <4B911853.2594.002B.0@adphila.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=4% Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 19:55:29 -0000 The only 'large' board that I have found useful (and was recommended to staff by an outplacement training centre) is dice.com. Of course, the SAGE and LOPSA job boards are truly targeted at the kind of people you are looking for, you can probably save yourself a lot of work by using them! - Richard On 3/5/10 11:42 AM, John BORIS wrote: > The SAGE and LOPSA job boards are two that come to mind. Although I > don't do the hiring or interviewing here I have posted jobs to these two > sites for Admins but I am not sure what type of response our HR > department got from those lists. > > John J. Boris, Sr. > JEN-A-SyS Administrator > Archdiocese of Philadelphia > "Remember! That light at the end of the tunnel > Just might be the headlight of an oncoming train!" > > >>>> "David N. Blank-Edelman" 3/5/2010 2:24 PM>>> >>>> > Hi- > I'm just about to have a Unix sysadmin position open up here working > for me at a university in Boston when I realized that my current > understanding of the best place to advertise the position is way out of > date. I've had very low turn-over in my group, so the last time I had to > go through this process for this kind of job was some seven-ish years > ago. > > My scanty recollection is that the large job sites aren't a > particularly good source for candidates. Is that still true? Any place > you'd recommend I post the position? Thanks! > > -- dNb > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From kurt.buff@gmail.com Fri Mar 5 12:14:51 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o25KEpP9041935 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 12:14:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iw0-f185.google.com (mail-iw0-f185.google.com [209.85.223.185]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o25KEmfQ023138 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 12:14:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by iwn15 with SMTP id 15so2864911iwn.7 for ; Fri, 05 Mar 2010 12:14:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=959vo2e9TCVXqL8e7Ir+mvZrSuj9KZZZJ0aV+Iii14M=; b=HXfGPko3WPUO15F/kRNf6I2t+o1HZh0zcojmn57iOG6ljDvYEJWs0Y6QE4J/I97krw 8kyF5PskY7T/Eqbd7U5iHU3mb6qu3srr3nSlnDqTtqqyN1vBLtwU6drsjH5eqRlWPK7m JDZtA816KGemLdk0sWoGYPkHx4WZqoW8UmGmY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=vegwJPg0ALAkhQ08x7eaWq3q9wqAFi9RBd3mVjSxQuzk5fWl9gDBWIPI2lXlPg0fQV dvo4JibK60OPiq/bCq+HtTkZmMjOKhrGm8EtAIjvUgcUm45kVgzJLpgZ7GYUa5sakCmn LygmPxvXc87UCITkNWrSSFHSbuqohGLPHUJmY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.161.69 with SMTP id q5mr82059ibx.57.1267819758737; Fri, 05 Mar 2010 12:09:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 12:09:18 -0800 Message-ID: From: Kurt Buff To: SAGE Members Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o25KEpP9041935 Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 20:14:52 -0000 On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 11:24, David N. Blank-Edelman wrote: > Hi- >  I'm just about to have a Unix sysadmin position open up here working for me at a university in Boston when I realized that my current understanding of the best place to advertise the position is way out of date. I've had very low turn-over in my group, so the last time I had to go through this process for this kind of job was some seven-ish years ago. > > My scanty recollection is that the large job sites aren't a particularly good source for candidates. Is that still true? Any place you'd recommend I post the position? Thanks! > >      -- dNb In the Puget Sound region, I've heard of companies having good success with Craigslist. Don't know if that's true in your neck of the woods, though. Kurt From kzentner@section6.net Fri Mar 5 12:15:48 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o25KFmP1041960 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 12:15:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kzentner@section6.net) Received: from heimdall.section6.net (heimdall.section6.net [204.13.164.242]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o25KFjfc023164 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 12:15:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from heimdall.section6.net (mail.section6.net [127.0.0.17]) by filter.mynetwork.local (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2BFE53731A; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:57:53 -0800 (PST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on section6.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 Received: from [10.192.172.105] (unknown [70.103.74.9]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.section6.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AA9E4537303; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:57:53 -0800 (PST) References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> <4B911853.2594.002B.0@adphila.org> In-Reply-To: <4B911853.2594.002B.0@adphila.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <84248D7B-A0AE-4FC2-9D35-787C189B626A@section6.net> From: Kris Zentner Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:57:52 -0800 To: "David N. Blank-Edelman" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o25KFmP1041960 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 20:15:49 -0000 I've had pretty good luck getting candidates out of Craigslist postings. My company has also had pretty good luck with dice.com which has much more of a tech focus. With a site like Monster you'll usually get a very large assortment of candidates, and usually the quality just isn't there. I've had varying luck with posting to local SAGE/LOPSA lists, but those are worth a shot. Their respective job boards I've usually not received much feed back at all from. -kz On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:42 AM, John BORIS wrote: > The SAGE and LOPSA job boards are two that come to mind. Although I > don't do the hiring or interviewing here I have posted jobs to these two > sites for Admins but I am not sure what type of response our HR > department got from those lists. > > John J. Boris, Sr. > JEN-A-SyS Administrator > Archdiocese of Philadelphia > "Remember! That light at the end of the tunnel > Just might be the headlight of an oncoming train!" > >>>> "David N. Blank-Edelman" 3/5/2010 2:24 PM >>> > Hi- > I'm just about to have a Unix sysadmin position open up here working > for me at a university in Boston when I realized that my current > understanding of the best place to advertise the position is way out of > date. I've had very low turn-over in my group, so the last time I had to > go through this process for this kind of job was some seven-ish years > ago. > > My scanty recollection is that the large job sites aren't a > particularly good source for candidates. Is that still true? Any place > you'd recommend I post the position? Thanks! > > -- dNb > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From danstoner@gmail.com Fri Mar 5 12:50:52 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o25Koq53042955 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 12:50:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danstoner@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f228.google.com (mail-fx0-f228.google.com [209.85.220.228]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o25Kon8h023833 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 12:50:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm28 with SMTP id 28so3743121fxm.39 for ; Fri, 05 Mar 2010 12:50:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=eZjtrt3HlePw87bcuGB77eqvQ8vsJthQ6nl6gB9bi9E=; b=nFBDSOVGEQp5iFzesvNExc2UQJYjlh4flGsoNS9NI4PKqywG8yJitv0MfeE3VvLwPW dJhn/rxn1ja+a2c9LspcX5+dARj45TkCns9I70lGasDepHSDz+jbl01S616NZR2cCLb7 k7DwT/8KVGYRvICQT1PuXc+3tHDNULmstyyLE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=JH3ZaoNl3xiQcrVBkCsLx7J7z1CAdp38qmFVyhtt63B9ZqaulZXuNqSYNpHS6QUb1j 9uubPmQEBbmGZ79HZ/+tvsn4JzAdh4x+f8m5OVMT4ATvoe3SDl4QgLa0QvshKOHlfcdm LlevQnl7esd1tdtjF0oDEbwn9uKqZmeweHInc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.64.84 with SMTP id d20mr1539228fai.76.1267822243228; Fri, 05 Mar 2010 12:50:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 15:50:42 -0500 Message-ID: <260cfef1003051250o6d8ffac4t747e18456e460c4b@mail.gmail.com> From: Dan Stoner To: "David N. Blank-Edelman" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o25Koq53042955 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 20:50:53 -0000 For a place like yours with very little turnover, word of mouth is great. I try to advertise on the $MAJOR_UNIVERSITY computer geek mailing lists in our area. I have seen Yahoo! and Google groups for regional tech interest groups, these are frequently connected to existing local user groups (e.g. Linux User Groups, Java User Groups, ...). Our local Linux User Group also has an IRC channel, so I see jobs posted and discussed there as well. - Dan Stoner On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:24 PM, David N. Blank-Edelman wrote: > Hi- >  I'm just about to have a Unix sysadmin position open up here working for me at a university in Boston when I realized that my current understanding of the best place to advertise the position is way out of date. I've had very low turn-over in my group, so the last time I had to go through this process for this kind of job was some seven-ish years ago. > > My scanty recollection is that the large job sites aren't a particularly good source for candidates. Is that still true? Any place you'd recommend I post the position? Thanks! > >      -- dNb > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From aardvark@saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com Fri Mar 5 16:02:20 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2602KKd046360 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 16:02:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aardvark@saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com) Received: from smtp-relay1.uniserve.ca (smtp-relay1j.uniserve.ca [216.210.109.128]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2602H0K026309 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 16:02:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [65.38.42.251] (helo=thornhill.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com) by smtp-relay1.uniserve.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NnhMl-000528-At; Fri, 05 Mar 2010 15:55:35 -0800 Received: by thornhill.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BCCA03A74A; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 15:55:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 15:55:34 -0800 From: Hugh Brown Sender: Hugh Brown To: "David N. Blank-Edelman" Message-ID: <20100305235534.GD6611@thornhill.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com> References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="g7w8+K/95kPelPD2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-Sender-Info: aardvark@saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com X-Scanner: OK. Scanned. X-Uniserve-Spam-Score: 0.1 1 (/) X-Uniserve-Spam-Report: Content analysis details: (0.1 points) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.1 RDNS_NONE Delivered to trusted network by a host with no rDNS X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=22% Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 00:02:20 -0000 --g7w8+K/95kPelPD2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline David N. Blank-Edelman disturbed my sleep to write: > My scanty recollection is that the large job sites aren't a > particularly good source for candidates. Is that still true? Any > place you'd recommend I post the position? Thanks! I've had good luck with Craigslist, the local LUGs and the university sysadmin mailing lists. hth, Hugh -- Hugh Brown http://saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com Because the plural of Anecdote is Myth. --g7w8+K/95kPelPD2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkuRmfYACgkQcljl8kcFycfwlQCaA1wbwAr93diOTKB7ofP8/PAK h8oAnRXP8BujTDCGpZWcUoXUnoSObgDp =mr3C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --g7w8+K/95kPelPD2-- From kacoroski@gmail.com Fri Mar 5 19:28:19 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f179.google.com (mail-yw0-f179.google.com [209.85.211.179]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o263SJPa050052 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 19:28:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kacoroski@gmail.com) Received: by ywh9 with SMTP id 9so1901049ywh.23 for ; Fri, 05 Mar 2010 19:28:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OT1nv8RJSRxYoL+dCAqW/dus/lI5qsyw0dxgA9wwwFs=; b=gMKyUPaelUHTQJo7sBWYr53cfFYWNPW/PltMYYCqbk8s5xojyejIMUcazOqFcpJgvI I3nJgqhoPCHEsWlNiUvKie1xhFcbeqK13CygElAUoIYl+te+rFZ8HEc1Z5lVy6A1c9gU MLdPeP7tG6CAn0bNIWJEc4uKBh3wBvSJZEiSc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=pw1idhhJ85mFyZNFWVPXiv+zSG3StNDSk524O6/SpNSbH9fSOBLM5VNoGhb6EeYV/z UYO/BU2+cyqnM67+RLTCGv6Jz8ILcQ1DEaeam1Tssi8+rfi9nV8OnaGGE2bMiZzCfTb3 mqenjy12ou691XdZX4bT5Dv6IAn+O9KrnTVT8= Received: by 10.90.127.18 with SMTP id z18mr2417180agc.52.1267846093968; Fri, 05 Mar 2010 19:28:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.4] (c-98-237-246-134.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [98.237.246.134]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 15sm1295052gxk.2.2010.03.05.19.28.12 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 05 Mar 2010 19:28:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B91CBCB.8040801@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 19:28:11 -0800 From: Ski Kacoroski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091204 Thunderbird/3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 03:28:20 -0000 I have had luck with craigslist and with announcing jobs at the local user group meetings and on their lists. cheers, ski On 03/05/2010 12:09 PM, Kurt Buff wrote: > On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 11:24, David N. Blank-Edelman wrote: >> Hi- >> I'm just about to have a Unix sysadmin position open up here working for me at a university in Boston when I realized that my current understanding of the best place to advertise the position is way out of date. I've had very low turn-over in my group, so the last time I had to go through this process for this kind of job was some seven-ish years ago. >> >> My scanty recollection is that the large job sites aren't a particularly good source for candidates. Is that still true? Any place you'd recommend I post the position? Thanks! >> >> -- dNb > > In the Puget Sound region, I've heard of companies having good success > with Craigslist. Don't know if that's true in your neck of the woods, > though. > > Kurt > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members -- "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it connected to the entire universe" John Muir Chris "Ski" Kacoroski, kacoroski@gmail.com, 206-501-9803 or ski98033 on most IM services From maddog@li.org Sat Mar 6 09:07:40 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o26H7eCV068742 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2010 09:07:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from maddog@li.org) Received: from mail107c26.carrierzone.com (mail107c26.carrierzone.com [64.29.152.117]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o26H7bl9021276; Sat, 6 Mar 2010 09:07:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authenticated-User: maddog.myfairpoint.net Received: from [192.168.2.100] (static-64-222-186-101.man.east.myfairpoint.net [64.222.186.101]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail107c26.carrierzone.com (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id o26H7TXO017073; Sat, 6 Mar 2010 17:07:30 GMT From: "Jon 'maddog' Hall" To: sage-members Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Organization: Linux International Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 12:07:28 -0500 Message-ID: <1267895248.3638.63.camel@shamet> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=7% Cc: Karae Lisle , Ellie Young Subject: [SAGE] The term "crash" X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: maddog@li.org List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 17:07:41 -0000 Hi, I am reading the book "Grace Hopper and The Invention of the Information Age" by Kurt W. Beyer, and a passage in it peaked my interest, so I thought I would come to one of the most authoritative groups around and ask the question: "What is the origin of the term 'crash'?" In most of the writings I see (from the Jargon File, for instance http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/C/crash.html), the credit is given to a disk head "crash" and the sound of the disk head crashing into the disk. but disks were a relatively late addition to "computers". Aiken's "Automatic Sequence Controlled Calculator" (also known as the Mark I) was an electromechanical device, with 3500 relays, 2,300 storage counters made of gears and a "drive shaft" as the "sequencer". In addition, the output was physically punched onto cards. While it was running the Mark I HAD to have made a LOT of noise. And from Beyer's book Hopper had noticed that "an inadvertent crossing of wires during programming would have 'disastrous results'." You could imagine standing in this room with the 81 foot-long Mark I grinding, clacking, chattering away and all of a sudden the wrong set of commands were given and the whole machine came to a (quite literal) "grinding halt". On page 66 of the book Beyer quotes Hopper saying in an interview of November 1968: "The crash of that thing [the Mark I - md] sounded as if a plane had run into the building.' Hopper recalled. 'You never heard such a crash in your life.'" Soon after the development of the Mark I, computers started using vacuum tubes to replace relays and electrical timing circuits with stored programs rather than mechanical "drive shafts" and paper-tape controls, so the machines must have become physically quieter. True, fans and other cooling apparatus meant that machine rooms were never quiet, but those devices typically do not become quieter just because the operating system "crashed". The Mark I, on the other hand, coming to that "grinding halt" must literally have given the impression of a physical "crash"of a car or a plane. While the term "bug" was known and used in Edison's time, Grace Hopper is credited with bringing it to use in computer science through the now famous (and documented) finding of the moth in the relays of the Mark II on September 9th, 1945 at 1545 hours EDT.* Is it possible that the team at Harvard also assigned the term "crash" as the over-all failure of the system in solving a problem, way before the innovation of disk heads "crashing" into disk surfaces? Or at least that the concept of the system "crashing" should be related with the loud sounds of an electro-mechanical device such as the Mark I and Mark II rather than the later disk drives? If people have any knowledge of the first date that the term "crash" was actually used, we can cross-check that with the date of the first disk drive. While this would not prove that the term came from the Mark I or Mark II group at Harvard, it would tend to disprove the current statements about disk heads "crashing". Thanks in advance for your time. Jon "maddog" Hall *Page 65 of Beyer's book shows a picture of the page from the Mark I log book of Sunday, September 9th, 1945 with the moth taped in and the entry marked at 1545 hours. Since the Mark II was at Harvard on the East Coast, and Daylight Savings Time (known then as "War Time") was in effect at that period nationally, we can assume that the 1545 hours was effectively "EDT". A later entry shows the Mark II "closing down" at 1700, presumably quitting time on the east coast, so we may assume that the designation is not GMT, but local time. From andrew@research.att.com Sat Mar 6 19:02:02 2010 Received: from mail-yellow.research.att.com (mail-dark.research.att.com [192.20.225.112]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27321Yq079838 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2010 19:02:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@research.att.com) Received: from [192.168.2.100] (vpn-16.research.att.com [135.207.240.16]) by bigmail.research.att.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id o27320hX009714 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2010 22:02:00 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: From: Andrew Hume Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 22:01:58 -0500 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] The term "crash" (Jon 'maddog' Hall) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 03:02:02 -0000 Jon, at my first commercial gig, the hardware include a giant magnetic drum (a precursor to the magnetic disk). these were large dangerous things, full of rotational momentum. but to return to the point, one thing i was explicitly told about was that in an emergenvy, the heads had to be manually retracted from the drum surface, otherwise they would cause damage. this latter was known as a 'head crash'. ------------------ Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and LOPSA From hyc@symas.com Sat Mar 6 23:20:52 2010 Received: from lirone.symas.net (lirone.symas.net [64.71.152.235]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o277KqRG083726 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2010 23:20:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hyc@symas.com) Received: from cpe-76-94-188-212.socal.res.rr.com ([76.94.188.212] helo=[192.168.1.25]) by lirone.symas.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NoAlc-0007Eq-G2; Sat, 06 Mar 2010 23:19:12 -0800 Message-ID: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 23:20:39 -0800 From: Howard Chu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; rv:1.9.3a2pre) Gecko/20100212 Firefox 3.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Hume References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] The term "crash" (Jon 'maddog' Hall) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 07:20:53 -0000 Andrew Hume wrote: > Jon, > > at my first commercial gig, the hardware include a giant magnetic drum > (a precursor to the magnetic disk). these were large dangerous things, > full of rotational momentum. but to return to the point, one thing i was > explicitly told about was that in an emergenvy, the heads had to be > manually > retracted from the drum surface, otherwise they would cause damage. > this latter was known as a 'head crash'. They still call it a head crash when a hard drive's read/write head crashes into the disk platter. Doesn't happen often these days because the heads are spring loaded and supposed to auto-retract if power is lost. But it still happens. -- -- Howard Chu CTO, Symas Corp. http://www.symas.com Director, Highland Sun http://highlandsun.com/hyc/ Chief Architect, OpenLDAP http://www.openldap.org/project/ From shades2@iinet.net.au Sun Mar 7 02:35:35 2010 Received: from outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out2.iinet.net.au (outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out2.iinet.net.au [203.59.1.107]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27AZYE1086400 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 02:35:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shades2@iinet.net.au) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAKwPk0vLzlNC/2dsb2JhbAAH0k6EeASDFQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,597,1262534400"; d="scan'208";a="615051332" Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.10]) ([203.206.83.66]) by outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out2.iinet.net.au with ESMTP; 07 Mar 2010 18:35:31 +0800 Message-ID: <4B93816F.3030209@iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 18:35:27 +0800 From: shades2 User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Howard Chu References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> In-Reply-To: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org, Andrew Hume Subject: Re: [SAGE] The term "crash" (Jon 'maddog' Hall) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 10:35:35 -0000 Hi Howard, I have seen some drives that seem to use an air resistance method with a plastic arm instead of a return spring, which moves the head back to a safe parking area on the disc, where it locks in until the drive is actuated again. Mike. Howard Chu wrote: > Andrew Hume wrote: >> Jon, >> >> at my first commercial gig, the hardware include a giant magnetic >> drum >> (a precursor to the magnetic disk). these were large dangerous things, >> full of rotational momentum. but to return to the point, one thing i was >> explicitly told about was that in an emergenvy, the heads had to be >> manually >> retracted from the drum surface, otherwise they would cause damage. >> this latter was known as a 'head crash'. > > They still call it a head crash when a hard drive's read/write head > crashes into the disk platter. Doesn't happen often these days because > the heads are spring loaded and supposed to auto-retract if power is > lost. But it still happens. > From shades2@iinet.net.au Sun Mar 7 02:42:26 2010 Received: from outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out3.iinet.net.au (outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out3.iinet.net.au [203.59.1.148]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27AgPfI086445 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 02:42:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shades2@iinet.net.au) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAAISk0vLzlNC/2dsb2JhbAAH0kyEeASDFQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,597,1262534400"; d="scan'208";a="561236887" Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.10]) ([203.206.83.66]) by outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out3.iinet.net.au with ESMTP; 07 Mar 2010 18:42:23 +0800 Message-ID: <4B938310.9020101@iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 18:42:24 +0800 From: shades2 User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> In-Reply-To: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SAGE] Virtualization question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 10:42:26 -0000 Well our company is currently using VMware 4.0 ESXi and vSphere vCenter. Has anyone seen large scale virtualization environments? I'm guessing they're primarily based on blades, but what VM software do SAGE members use, and recommend for large-scale environments such as hosting? VMware and Xen seem to be the market leaders. Currently we are looking to outsource this implementation (not my choice), but they have to implement this on a cost-effective basis and minimize the amount of time it takes to get a return on the initial investment. So far those leading the outsourcing push have been quite dissapointed with the offerings, particularly the lack of TCO / ROI information offered, which our firm is particularly interested in, before they start throwing money anywhere. I'm worried that this uncertaintly is going to delay their movement into the Cloud, and this is going to cost them far more in the long run, than the initial investment in the chosen outsourced virtualization solution. Thanks, Mike. From maddog@li.org Sun Mar 7 04:47:30 2010 Received: from mail123c26.carrierzone.com (mail123c26.carrierzone.com [64.29.152.133]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27ClTPb089085 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 04:47:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from maddog@li.org) X-Authenticated-User: maddog.myfairpoint.net Received: from [192.168.2.100] (static-64-222-186-101.man.east.myfairpoint.net [64.222.186.101]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail123c26.carrierzone.com (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id o27ClPFL011748; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 12:47:27 GMT From: "Jon 'maddog' Hall" To: Andrew Hume In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Organization: Linux International Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 07:47:25 -0500 Message-ID: <1267966045.2812.34.camel@shamet> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] The term "crash" (Jon 'maddog' Hall) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: maddog@li.org List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 12:47:30 -0000 Andrew (et. al,), >at my first commercial gig, Year? >retracted from the drum surface, otherwise they would cause damage. >this latter was known as a 'head crash'. I am aware of the term "head crash" as it refers to disks and drums. I also know the sound it makes, having experienced several at Bell Labs. I am just trying to find out if the word "crash" came into use due to the noise (and sudden lack of it) from machines like the Mark I and II, which probably made more noise while running perfectly than all my crashing disk heads put together. :-) According to Wikipedia, the first commercial disk shipped was the IBM RAMAC 350, in 1956. And drum memory was invented in 1932 by an Austrian inventor, Gustav Tauschek. I found a reference to the Manchester Mark I computer using drum memory in April of 1949. The Manchester Mark I used tubes, however, so the basic machine was probably pretty quiet. Many early drums, however, had fixed heads and were less likely to have a "head crash". I may not find a definitive answer to my question, but I thank you for taking the time to write. md From maddog@li.org Sun Mar 7 05:02:01 2010 Received: from mail124c26.carrierzone.com (mail124c26.carrierzone.com [64.29.152.134]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27D20Iq089338 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 05:02:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from maddog@li.org) X-Authenticated-User: maddog.myfairpoint.net Received: from [192.168.2.100] (static-64-222-186-101.man.east.myfairpoint.net [64.222.186.101]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail124c26.carrierzone.com (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id o27D1oOi026202; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 13:01:52 GMT From: "Jon 'maddog' Hall" To: shades2 In-Reply-To: <4B93816F.3030209@iinet.net.au> References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> <4B93816F.3030209@iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Organization: Linux International Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 08:01:49 -0500 Message-ID: <1267966909.2812.48.camel@shamet> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org, Andrew Hume Subject: Re: [SAGE] The term "crash" (Jon 'maddog' Hall) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: maddog@li.org List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 13:02:01 -0000 >I have seen some drives that seem to use an air resistance method with >a plastic arm instead of a return spring, which moves the head back to >a safe parking area on the disc, where it locks in until the drive is >actuated again. Power failures were not the only reason for disk heads to crash. During the era of removable disk platters, contamination of various types could build up on the disk surface, eventually leading to a disk head crash. Many books on introductory computer science had the obligatory picture of the "disk head surface" showing the different sizes of various contaminates: o smoke particle o fingerprint o human hair (which was typically HUGE) compared to the typical flying height of the disk head over the disk platter surface. The theory was that the disk head hitting this contamination would fly up into the air and come down onto the surface of the platter. Many systems administrators had an old disk platter hanging on the wall to warn new operators not to even THINK about smoking on the job. There was a company for a while that would come to your facility and clean the surface of your disk platters, then showing you the cleaning cloths they used and how much glop they got off each surface. It was pretty amazing given the fact the computer room was "clean", and the disk drives each had air going through some pretty good filters. One classic story, however, was the computer center that was having a sudden huge spike in disk head crashes. It turns out that the room had recently been painted with petroleum-based paint, and the paint fumes were getting through the disk filters and condensing on the disk platters, building up a film over time that caused the disk heads to crash. At 700 USD per disk head (and many disk heads per disk drive) and about 1K USD per disk platter (both heads and platter destroyed during a crash, of course), it was a very expensive paint job. md From geer@tinho.net Sun Mar 7 06:04:56 2010 Received: from absinthe.tinho.net (absinthe.tinho.net [166.84.5.228]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27E4tX8090362 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 06:04:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from geer@tinho.net) Received: by absinthe.tinho.net (Postfix, from userid 126) id 4408D33D17; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 09:04:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from absinthe.tinho.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by absinthe.tinho.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4221033C8C; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 09:04:50 -0500 (EST) From: dan@geer.org To: maddog@li.org In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 07 Mar 2010 08:01:49 EST." <1267966909.2812.48.camel@shamet> Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 09:04:50 -0500 Sender: geer@tinho.net Message-Id: <20100307140450.4408D33D17@absinthe.tinho.net> Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] The term "crash" (Jon 'maddog' Hall) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 14:04:57 -0000 | | Many systems administrators had an old disk platter hanging | on the wall to warn new operators not to even THINK about | smoking on the job. | Mainframe-centric academic computing center, 1983 or so: We installed a new brand of removable disk drives. We had never seen them in action. Neither had the tech who installed them. Sadly, the instructions did not reveal *all* the places where packing foam was hidden, so we turned them on with the airways to the cooling fans partially blocked. A few days later, one of them fully inhaled a block of foam, and caught fire. Half of all drives croaked over the ensuing month; we guessed in retrospect it was deposition of plastic smoke. --dan From jason@jasonantman.com Sun Mar 7 06:53:37 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27Erbwu091768 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 06:53:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jason@jasonantman.com) Received: from mailmaster.jasonantman.com (web2.jasonantman.com [96.57.180.134]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o27ErYaX016329 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 06:53:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.24] (palantir.jasonantman.com [192.168.0.24]) by mailmaster.jasonantman.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id CEEDF9329 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 09:42:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B93BD74.2070801@jasonantman.com> Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 09:51:32 -0500 From: Jason Antman User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (X11/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> In-Reply-To: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7 OpenPGP: id=34EE2F92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 14:53:38 -0000 Since I work at a rather large university in NJ, and have both spent some time over the past year looking for a job (I'm currently 30 hrs/week, though it looks like a full-time position may be coming up) and have given some help to the hiring process for other groups... 1) Absolute best would be posting to any tech/Unix/Linux mailing lists at your university, as well as sending the posting to the Linux/Unix users' group if your university has one. Also, you may have some people (such as myself) who have been part-time as a student and since graduating, and are just hanging out looking for a full-time position. 2) SAGE and LOPSA lists, as well as any other LUG/UUG mailing lists. 3) Craigslist 4) Dice. 5) Monster (as other have said, the amount of jobs posted here is almost overwhelming). Be sure to show your own knowledge in the post - specifically, I always give much more (and much quicker) attention to postings that actually list a SAGE level and say something about the environment I'd be working in. Another bit of advice/comment - working in higher education has a lot to offer. At least where I work (in a relatively small, under-staffed group that's responsible for quite a few highly visible university-wide services) there are a lot of benefits. Not just the perks that HR can list, but often more responsibility and freedom than you'd find at an equivalent job in the private sector, and generally much more room for innovation (the usual proclivity for higher ed types to like research and new things). You'll likely have quite a few people hanging around just waiting for a nice Unix admin job. -J Antman David N. Blank-Edelman wrote: > Hi- > I'm just about to have a Unix sysadmin position open up here working for me at a university in Boston when I realized that my current understanding of the best place to advertise the position is way out of date. I've had very low turn-over in my group, so the last time I had to go through this process for this kind of job was some seven-ish years ago. > > My scanty recollection is that the large job sites aren't a particularly good source for candidates. Is that still true? Any place you'd recommend I post the position? Thanks! > > -- dNb > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > From mark.dennehy@gmail.com Sun Mar 7 07:07:55 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27F7tXn092229 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 07:07:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark.dennehy@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f228.google.com (mail-fx0-f228.google.com [209.85.220.228]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o27F7peb016640 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 07:07:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm28 with SMTP id 28so4756628fxm.39 for ; Sun, 07 Mar 2010 07:07:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=RfhGnBsDOORh8ZgdoDzoU10fIFK8/ugPeMG4KK+jSIg=; b=M5sFEocmzJR0J4W51M6oIc1tE3/cAYByJ9NNu7V90Ac/L04ppUHHts0iF/lgurQpfb IOV2JxA23ZOpQ2pMcp3wzK3Q3Qnr/cRJV0idKk4DIV4sY40VuWJTWsk7Lx/m8xn82vnc 5r9o2y1JNFVAs5Oez0jX8g8c6yCQWaOeBWg38= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Nfv1JpUM2ylBdgPnL0K0AVaU2CsfULBq9oLcs0Ie7CivE1WGDEslS11zwxYVreppNE 5yklz+wWynPkihPX0btdGjAJiyvRzrnodhrRYpm2rToD4JxIGvgD6QtPkDeQxkZkOXo/ bAvNGbEPx9fuTB2dFGcdtZfMRzjFmOAqkSkho= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.28.156 with SMTP id m28mr4332889fac.41.1267974465113; Sun, 07 Mar 2010 07:07:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B93BD74.2070801@jasonantman.com> References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> <4B93BD74.2070801@jasonantman.com> Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 15:07:45 +0000 Message-ID: From: Mark Dennehy To: Jason Antman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o27F7tXn092229 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 15:07:55 -0000 If we're going to make recommendations for hiring, could I make one generic point that gets right up under my fingernails? *A job ad without salary information is like a CV without a name on it.* Seriously, that one little thing gets *so* annoying during a job hunt. I'd rant more, but I've done that already, so I'll limit my bandwidth usage on that one: http://www.stochasticgeometry.ie/2008/04/25/tips-for-hiring-new-engineers/ On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Jason Antman wrote: > > Since I work at a rather large university in NJ, and have both spent > some time over the past year looking for a job (I'm currently 30 > hrs/week, though it looks like a full-time position may be coming up) > and have given some help to the hiring process for other groups... > > 1) Absolute best would be posting to any tech/Unix/Linux mailing lists > at your university, as well as sending the posting to the Linux/Unix > users' group if your university has one. Also, you may have some people > (such as myself) who have been part-time as a student and since > graduating, and are just hanging out looking for a full-time position. > 2) SAGE and LOPSA lists, as well as any other LUG/UUG mailing lists. > 3) Craigslist > 4) Dice. > 5) Monster (as other have said, the amount of jobs posted here is almost > overwhelming). > > Be sure to show your own knowledge in the post - specifically, I always > give much more (and much quicker) attention to postings that actually > list a SAGE level and say something about the environment I'd be working in. > > Another bit of advice/comment - working in higher education has a lot to > offer. At least where I work (in a relatively small, under-staffed group > that's responsible for quite a few highly visible university-wide > services) there are a lot of benefits. Not just the perks that HR can > list, but often more responsibility and freedom than you'd find at an > equivalent job in the private sector, and generally much more room for > innovation (the usual proclivity for higher ed types to like research > and new things). You'll likely have quite a few people hanging around > just waiting for a nice Unix admin job. > > -J Antman > > David N. Blank-Edelman wrote: > > Hi- > >   I'm just about to have a Unix sysadmin position open up here working for me at a university in Boston when I realized that my current understanding of the best place to advertise the position is way out of date. I've had very low turn-over in my group, so the last time I had to go through this process for this kind of job was some seven-ish years ago. > > > > My scanty recollection is that the large job sites aren't a particularly good source for candidates. Is that still true? Any place you'd recommend I post the position? Thanks! > > > >       -- dNb > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sage-members mailing list > > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members -- Mark Dennehy From bwhitehd@gmail.com Sun Mar 7 07:50:07 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27Fo6of093044 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 07:50:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bwhitehd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gy0-f176.google.com (mail-gy0-f176.google.com [209.85.160.176]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o27Fo35Z017464 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 07:50:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by gyb13 with SMTP id 13so2393728gyb.35 for ; Sun, 07 Mar 2010 07:49:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:references:message-id:from:to :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer :mime-version:subject:date:cc; bh=ER6CGumwRoBMIivjCuAt/1qOXJYo2FmX4gRQAQY6QQc=; b=jYcISfG0h5hY1t4nHooe30gJhuQx815z4BcXIQ5o0pW9qSQD6xO7+G172QhR+cDFH3 IqcPzlHnd1CoJlFsIRMs6uncn+Lr9GwRxYNrUWTs5SQPWRlUkNzIx7N6dcrDcVs7wFg/ ewqn4KD+0LXRXuBqYCgzJXMZQm27hymU5oLSE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=references:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:cc; b=A1vbXC4jv7mypzwlWERjrQo4reli71OuOXWC6dM/4AZFB8GnJBihgBjo8xTdHC5vEu 6mRi6T23jLexp5X4SdD3WcCxSpdNk0wEn1IKTZaV7plUPVYFd/K3CA/fkrEYMe49EaFk FrQsC6n3FYrk/TzmIPy1vc5hMiGczzQnvZuqY= Received: by 10.101.206.22 with SMTP id i22mr7158810anq.36.1267976998067; Sun, 07 Mar 2010 07:49:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.136.228.63] ([166.205.11.143]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 23sm1460044ywh.30.2010.03.07.07.49.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 07 Mar 2010 07:49:57 -0800 (PST) References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> <4B93BD74.2070801@jasonantman.com> Message-Id: <716DDF47-8086-4E34-B505-E41F92B9E638@gmail.com> From: Brian Whitehead To: Mark Dennehy In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 09:49:47 -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Cc: "sage-members@sage.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 15:50:07 -0000 I have to STRONGLY agree on this point. It's a big waste of both an employer and candidate to go through the application and interview process and find out that the salary range is not even close. Many postings don't even describe the "level" of the position. Regards, Brian Sent from my iPhone On Mar 7, 2010, at 9:07 AM, Mark Dennehy wrote: > If we're going to make recommendations for hiring, could I make one > generic point that gets right up under my fingernails? > > *A job ad without salary information is like a CV without a name on > it.* > > Seriously, that one little thing gets *so* annoying during a job hunt. > I'd rant more, but I've done that already, so I'll limit my > bandwidth usage > on that one: > http://www.stochasticgeometry.ie/2008/04/25/tips-for-hiring-new-engineers/ > > On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Jason Antman > wrote: >> >> Since I work at a rather large university in NJ, and have both spent >> some time over the past year looking for a job (I'm currently 30 >> hrs/week, though it looks like a full-time position may be coming up) >> and have given some help to the hiring process for other groups... >> >> 1) Absolute best would be posting to any tech/Unix/Linux mailing >> lists >> at your university, as well as sending the posting to the Linux/Unix >> users' group if your university has one. Also, you may have some >> people >> (such as myself) who have been part-time as a student and since >> graduating, and are just hanging out looking for a full-time >> position. >> 2) SAGE and LOPSA lists, as well as any other LUG/UUG mailing lists. >> 3) Craigslist >> 4) Dice. >> 5) Monster (as other have said, the amount of jobs posted here is >> almost >> overwhelming). >> >> Be sure to show your own knowledge in the post - specifically, I >> always >> give much more (and much quicker) attention to postings that actually >> list a SAGE level and say something about the environment I'd be >> working in. >> >> Another bit of advice/comment - working in higher education has a >> lot to >> offer. At least where I work (in a relatively small, under-staffed >> group >> that's responsible for quite a few highly visible university-wide >> services) there are a lot of benefits. Not just the perks that HR can >> list, but often more responsibility and freedom than you'd find at an >> equivalent job in the private sector, and generally much more room >> for >> innovation (the usual proclivity for higher ed types to like research >> and new things). You'll likely have quite a few people hanging around >> just waiting for a nice Unix admin job. >> >> -J Antman >> >> David N. Blank-Edelman wrote: >>> Hi- >>> I'm just about to have a Unix sysadmin position open up here >>> working for me at a university in Boston when I realized that my >>> current understanding of the best place to advertise the position >>> is way out of date. I've had very low turn-over in my group, so >>> the last time I had to go through this process for this kind of >>> job was some seven-ish years ago. >>> >>> My scanty recollection is that the large job sites aren't a >>> particularly good source for candidates. Is that still true? Any >>> place you'd recommend I post the position? Thanks! >>> >>> -- dNb >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sage-members mailing list >>> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >>> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > > > -- > Mark Dennehy > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From bwhitehd@gmail.com Sun Mar 7 08:08:17 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27G8HQB093373 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 08:08:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bwhitehd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yx0-f171.google.com (mail-yx0-f171.google.com [209.85.210.171]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o27G8EdM017895 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 08:08:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by yxe1 with SMTP id 1so39666yxe.31 for ; Sun, 07 Mar 2010 08:08:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:references:message-id:from:to :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer :mime-version:subject:date:cc; bh=oo3dYc/trO/PBCuLNCrWtBvzjQhDaFIywp1qMYemyjs=; b=fLh/0RhrtPkjaxNRzwE2+rm49TEM0tYJzz0kTKO2v/BxmKgNsVggxFjMSdkyw5S2+Q WdQyfo5Po1QOgV8wizQWEEhAQVUJTAMdQRoyPizy476bcS4nk/WbMTvjIAlNeM9WA9UZ Kk/WGwOOAmr0gar8wJ2VtiCNceqs8JfGNoWm8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=references:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:cc; b=YHBmiYd1kvTqkGm+XH06UJOub6x0fGJWMzpSkXUtv+O9j5uZbOmR2MuwFHYpwRJFZk TDYb6dZOuwGoKZFlJQE1C0PN+s0zkMrgmxRz25WK80NDd5IkOe0TRdeEt2WAgPAQtRbC za9MppJPt40JY0o16xhd2H/pfDmFhEmA26dSY= Received: by 10.101.55.2 with SMTP id h2mr7218359ank.6.1267977591635; Sun, 07 Mar 2010 07:59:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.136.228.63] ([166.205.11.143]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 4sm1453019ywg.39.2010.03.07.07.59.48 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 07 Mar 2010 07:59:50 -0800 (PST) References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> <4B93BD74.2070801@jasonantman.com> Message-Id: From: Brian Whitehead To: Jason Antman In-Reply-To: <4B93BD74.2070801@jasonantman.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 09:59:41 -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Cc: "sage-members@sage.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 16:08:18 -0000 I have to say one thing regarding all of job boards these days. There are WAY TOO MANY fly-by-night contract companies and recruiter pulling resumes from these sites without even reading them. Most of them are using automated systems that pull them in to a database and send out emails without a human even viewing the information. Given this, it greatly reduces the usefulness and effectiveness of these resources. Regards, Brian Sent from my iPhone On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Jason Antman wrote: > Since I work at a rather large university in NJ, and have both spent > some time over the past year looking for a job (I'm currently 30 > hrs/week, though it looks like a full-time position may be coming up) > and have given some help to the hiring process for other groups... > > 1) Absolute best would be posting to any tech/Unix/Linux mailing lists > at your university, as well as sending the posting to the Linux/Unix > users' group if your university has one. Also, you may have some > people > (such as myself) who have been part-time as a student and since > graduating, and are just hanging out looking for a full-time position. > 2) SAGE and LOPSA lists, as well as any other LUG/UUG mailing lists. > 3) Craigslist > 4) Dice. > 5) Monster (as other have said, the amount of jobs posted here is > almost > overwhelming). > > Be sure to show your own knowledge in the post - specifically, I > always > give much more (and much quicker) attention to postings that actually > list a SAGE level and say something about the environment I'd be > working in. > > Another bit of advice/comment - working in higher education has a > lot to > offer. At least where I work (in a relatively small, under-staffed > group > that's responsible for quite a few highly visible university-wide > services) there are a lot of benefits. Not just the perks that HR can > list, but often more responsibility and freedom than you'd find at an > equivalent job in the private sector, and generally much more room for > innovation (the usual proclivity for higher ed types to like research > and new things). You'll likely have quite a few people hanging around > just waiting for a nice Unix admin job. > > -J Antman > > David N. Blank-Edelman wrote: >> Hi- >> I'm just about to have a Unix sysadmin position open up here >> working for me at a university in Boston when I realized that my >> current understanding of the best place to advertise the position >> is way out of date. I've had very low turn-over in my group, so the >> last time I had to go through this process for this kind of job was >> some seven-ish years ago. >> >> My scanty recollection is that the large job sites aren't a >> particularly good source for candidates. Is that still true? Any >> place you'd recommend I post the position? Thanks! >> >> -- dNb >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> >> > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From david@catwhisker.org Sun Mar 7 08:40:26 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27GeQGT093964 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 08:40:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david@catwhisker.org) Received: from bunrab.catwhisker.org (adsl-63-193-123-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.123.122]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o27GeNk2018424 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 08:40:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from bunrab.catwhisker.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bunrab.catwhisker.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27GW7eY079144 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 08:32:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david@bunrab.catwhisker.org) Received: (from david@localhost) by bunrab.catwhisker.org (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id o27GW7uv079143 for sage-members@sage.org; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 08:32:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 08:32:07 -0800 From: David Wolfskill To: "sage-members@sage.org" Message-ID: <20100307163207.GD57205@bunrab.catwhisker.org> References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> <4B93BD74.2070801@jasonantman.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Ca0e2zgpnh8/XhnM" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 16:40:27 -0000 --Ca0e2zgpnh8/XhnM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Mar 07, 2010 at 09:59:41AM -0600, Brian Whitehead wrote: > I have to say one thing regarding all of job boards these days. There = =20 > are WAY TOO MANY fly-by-night contract companies and recruiter pulling = =20 > resumes from these sites without even reading them. Most of them are =20 > using automated systems that pull them in to a database and send out =20 > emails without a human even viewing the information. Given this, it =20 > greatly reduces the usefulness and effectiveness of these resources. > .... Indeed. I recently received email correspondence from a fellow who claimed to represent a search firm based in San Francisco, stating that the most recent copy of my resume they had on file was from about 10 years ago, requesting an updated resume. Between that time and about 5 years ago, I was one of many who went through some "financial turbulence," though for the last few years, things have been much betters -- and I'm not currently looking. Thus, it was with a certain amount of "Where were you when I needed you??!?" resentment that I received the message in question. I was, however, able to restrain myself from sending the first several replies that came to mind, and finally (after about a day) sent a message thanking my correspondent for his interest, pointing out that the reason my current resume is not on my Web site is that I'm not looking, and requesting that his firm remove the copy of my resume from 10 years ago and not distribute it, as doing so would be a disservice to all concerned. Of course, I know of no way to actually enforce that request, but I was at least able to write a response that I wouldn't mind receiving (or so I imagine). On the OP's topic: when I was looking, I preferred local technical groups (e.g., BayLISA & BAFUG for me), then Craigslist. Peace, david --=20 David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org Depriving a girl or boy of an opportunity for education is evil. See http://www.catwhisker.org/~david/publickey.gpg for my public key. --Ca0e2zgpnh8/XhnM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkuT1QYACgkQmprOCmdXAD1IMwCdEl29a8hRQmPcf5xBauAtwbKE psAAn1SCpDJt6uiuRATw8he+mU2hI5UH =yI2v -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Ca0e2zgpnh8/XhnM-- From mizmoose@gmail.com Sun Mar 7 09:50:59 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27HoxBK095266 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 09:50:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mizmoose@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f182.google.com (mail-qy0-f182.google.com [209.85.221.182]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o27Hou32019553 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 09:50:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk12 with SMTP id 12so3698618qyk.7 for ; Sun, 07 Mar 2010 09:50:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=uXjQwPMF25N3dzAG0fKkXcFTn8NfgEp52SnYJGancJs=; b=gFtkufYEDy4amlDPJ7Vtoe+QW6KayLi6Dlv0ysfd2fTjJU4/CX46GvaBXBn9iVx+vz MdvOR97WG/LCXtS9ByBARRKEu/5y694YtatI53S7SwNdCariejnmZPHuHAqLIpCoLEri 6oxDfsQVSc+ScsiNkv2yod+kpS1494oUq6HZQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=WxQaWLcOxLfkHymdeEtMyRhHfbU5NnOBMobji4WeVnEfsYWR2bqocbWLOwfab7aXJ8 8TCgVabRyj+S5mA/K0I6K4xx0v5bUt38UGpiqzYopxoN45l1w+Wuu20948nGxmcnAUq2 5eYO71x+MQSajzzI+ki5FPrA57xoveUdYkZBg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.222.4 with SMTP id ie4mr1636955qcb.79.1267983898280; Sun, 07 Mar 2010 09:44:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <716DDF47-8086-4E34-B505-E41F92B9E638@gmail.com> References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> <4B93BD74.2070801@jasonantman.com> <716DDF47-8086-4E34-B505-E41F92B9E638@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 12:44:58 -0500 Message-ID: From: Esther Filderman To: "sage-members@sage.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=9% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o27HoxBK095266 Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 17:50:59 -0000 On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Brian Whitehead wrote: > I have to STRONGLY agree on this point.  It's a big waste of both an > employer and candidate to go through the application and interview process > and find out that the salary range is not even close.  Many postings don't > even describe the "level" of the position. In both directions. It's annoying to have them make an offer and it's way less than you want. It's also annoying for them to not state a salary range then demand to know the salary of your last job(s), and then use that to say, "Well, gee, we'd like to hire you but we can't meet your last salary" OR use your last salary to undercut you [ie if you'd lied and said $20k more than you made they would have offered you that]. From mark.dennehy@gmail.com Sun Mar 7 10:12:24 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27ICODm095695 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 10:12:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark.dennehy@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f228.google.com (mail-fx0-f228.google.com [209.85.220.228]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o27ICKVa019873 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 10:12:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm28 with SMTP id 28so4851892fxm.39 for ; Sun, 07 Mar 2010 10:12:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=7DYAeAIrjjvkC5jm/Hubs9FA/97apM+X2V7H0T+Xkd8=; b=twjq9DTcmfCGXW12ZI8OgdMTgXJYSW/bZDLZ5k4YUV220+BOdY9YonK26r7ObYVN2t JL1q1gDGC7tardPo/ohzEeL3MVo6ui+0UNtOrr60inCh0eT/WTzn0I17fYI3BrA5J8dP prBvHOL99QwsKX/5xS6PL4QCZN+B+Lsp9yVJ8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=HiyfpsNo7i+RaTqCQrBl7Z4HCJlxq9x0PWAuZ43LLRLVrJP2G8nrufkSVMxoJe3gUf MA/nEHIax+0Xif7hPUgUyEYT+JtDuDDvjt6w5Ww+7WCNTusFhfGgvZ4Gj3z/U+sLyjP0 2IFffc4QfY50p53f7qG4rRyevUJUb+8fo2k0s= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.2.198 with SMTP id 6mr4242529fak.100.1267985533990; Sun, 07 Mar 2010 10:12:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> <4B93BD74.2070801@jasonantman.com> <716DDF47-8086-4E34-B505-E41F92B9E638@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 18:12:13 +0000 Message-ID: From: Mark Dennehy To: Esther Filderman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o27ICODm095695 Cc: "sage-members@sage.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 18:12:24 -0000 It's even more infuriating to ensure your salary expectations are quoted to a potential employer well in advance, to be called in to interview, to tick every box the engineering and/or ops team have to tick and for every technical person to be certain you'd be a good fit and an asset; and then to have HR step in after a half-day's interviewing and say "well, we'd love to take you on, but your salary expectations are too high - how flexible can you be on salary?". "Gee lady, I don't know, how flexible were you on salary? How flexible will the bank be on my mortgage repayments or the grocer on my bills? How flexible will the school/college be on fees and expenses? How flexible will my pension plan be? How flexible are my kids about eating?" Gah. And it's so downright *rude* as well. That was a whole day wasted, of my time and theirs. It cost them money to do that interview - three engineers for a half-day and a HR hack for an hour to stuff it all up. And it wasn't like they couldn't have asked the question ahead of time either. On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 5:44 PM, Esther Filderman wrote: > On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Brian Whitehead wrote: >> I have to STRONGLY agree on this point.  It's a big waste of both an >> employer and candidate to go through the application and interview process >> and find out that the salary range is not even close.  Many postings don't >> even describe the "level" of the position. > > In both directions. > > It's annoying to have them make an offer and it's way less than you want. > > It's also annoying for them to not state a salary range then demand to > know the salary of your last job(s), and then use that to say, "Well, > gee, we'd like to hire you but we can't meet your last salary" OR use > your last salary to undercut you [ie if you'd lied and said $20k more > than you made they would have offered you that]. > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- Mark Dennehy From seph@directionless.org Sun Mar 7 11:23:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27JNVRU097195 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 11:23:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seph@directionless.org) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o27JNRk2021095 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 11:23:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.internal [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56E2FE2FCF; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 14:23:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from heartbeat1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 07 Mar 2010 14:23:27 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=smtpout; bh=yW5umV+hcYKv/Xykq+RkH3GQZe8=; b=g4kwv4K5N/55IhSEfYBBEVT7HtQ/2rGBUU/aO3Vnn3YaBbqnezMm69HBoWGhzeI0JGc0UvtXyc1XWRWcA6ISUGH09BepDdBikcr6hegdrK2xGnIcfuHqSm1vJXLhHjISXtOz5Bz7U318yGj3uo0cWfV8syuSbItu6VTOvKl6mgI= X-Sasl-enc: ILQlS3FprS8hAliTEkXof5h1iaqD1+v/QIfxmW5yM9ae 1267989806 Received: from bastion.directionless.org (c-24-128-190-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.128.190.204]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 11CF14A7D0B; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 14:23:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by bastion.directionless.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 07 Mar 2010 14:23:25 -0500 From: seph To: "David N. Blank-Edelman" References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 14:23:25 -0500 In-Reply-To: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> (David N. Blank-Edelman's message of "Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:24:23 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110008 (No Gnus v0.8) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=3% Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 19:23:32 -0000 > I'm just about to have a Unix sysadmin position open up here working > for me at a university in Boston In addition to all the other things people have suggested, the local group BBLISA has a jobs list. seph From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Sun Mar 7 12:13:16 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27KDGNJ098378 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 12:13:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toq8-srv.bellnexxia.net (toq8-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.204]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o27KDD0d022017 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 12:13:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from toip5.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.88]) by tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100307194250.JRWR11823.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip5.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 14:42:50 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAHSPk0tMRCV+/2dsb2JhbAAH02OEeASDFw Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279534462.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.68.37.126]) by toip5.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 07 Mar 2010 14:42:05 -0500 Message-Id: <7101D0CA-3178-4806-9535-36A1120D077D@ee.ryerson.ca> From: David Magda To: David Wolfskill In-Reply-To: <20100307163207.GD57205@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 14:42:49 -0500 References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> <4B93BD74.2070801@jasonantman.com> <20100307163207.GD57205@bunrab.catwhisker.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: "sage-members@sage.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 20:13:16 -0000 On Mar 7, 2010, at 11:32, David Wolfskill wrote: > Of course, I know of no way to actually enforce that request, but I > was > at least able to write a response that I wouldn't mind receiving (or > so > I imagine). Copyright? Perhaps send them a DMCA take down notice. :) From shrdlu@deaddrop.org Sun Mar 7 12:40:02 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27Ke2e3098904 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 12:40:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shrdlu@deaddrop.org) Received: from relay01.pair.com (relay01.pair.com [209.68.5.15]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id o27KdwNb022407 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 12:40:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 20100 invoked by uid 0); 7 Mar 2010 20:33:17 -0000 Received: from 66.119.212.42 (HELO ?66.119.212.42?) (66.119.212.42) by relay01.pair.com with SMTP; 7 Mar 2010 20:33:17 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 66.119.212.42 Message-ID: <4B940DEC.8050004@deaddrop.org> Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 12:34:52 -0800 From: Shrdlu Organization: dig @localhost TXT CHAOS version.bind User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.11) Gecko/20050728 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> <4B93BD74.2070801@jasonantman.com> <20100307163207.GD57205@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <7101D0CA-3178-4806-9535-36A1120D077D@ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <7101D0CA-3178-4806-9535-36A1120D077D@ee.ryerson.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=4% Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 20:40:03 -0000 David Magda wrote: > On Mar 7, 2010, at 11:32, David Wolfskill wrote: > >> Of course, I know of no way to actually enforce that request, but I was >> at least able to write a response that I wouldn't mind receiving (or so >> I imagine). > Copyright? Perhaps send them a DMCA take down notice. :) You just jogged my memory on this one. Every now and then, I'd post a resume on misc.jobs.resumes, or a job posting on misc.jobs.offered, and I started putting the date, and a disclaimer, at the bottom of each, that stated basically that if it wasn't from me, directly, it wasn't legitimate, and that recruiters did NOT represent me, nor should they send me resumes for the postings. I confess I wasn't really looking for a job back then (but you never know), but I did go on a couple of interviews, one of which ended abruptly when HR walked in the room and said that there was a conflict of interest, because my resume had already been submitted by a recruiter. Yeah. Evil. Just as well. The place folded in the dot bomb implosion anyway. -- Social networking site users are not the site's customers. They are the site's product. This product is sold to advertisers and data-miners. From levins@westnet.com Sun Mar 7 13:48:11 2010 Received: from westnet.com (root@westnet.com [216.187.52.2]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27LmAd6000213 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 13:48:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from levins@westnet.com) Received: from westnet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id o27LmAss023454 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 16:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (levins@localhost) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.13.2/Submit) with ESMTP id o27LmAFK023450 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 16:48:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 16:48:10 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Levin To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org In-Reply-To: <4B938310.9020101@iinet.net.au> Message-ID: References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> <4B938310.9020101@iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: [SAGE] Virtualization question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 21:48:11 -0000 On Sun, 7 Mar 2010, shades2 wrote: > Has anyone seen large scale virtualization environments? I'm guessing they're > primarily based on blades, but what VM software > do SAGE members use, and recommend for large-scale environments such as > hosting? Actually, we're avoiding blades. We just don't really see the point. We don't have a standard platform as yet, but we generally use HP DL3xx and DL5xx series stuff for our vSphere farms. > Currently we are looking to outsource this implementation (not my choice), > but they have to implement this on a cost-effective > basis and minimize the amount of time it takes to get a return on the initial > investment. So far those leading the outsourcing push > have been quite dissapointed with the offerings, particularly the lack of TCO > / ROI information offered, which our firm is particularly interested in, > before they start throwing money anywhere. If you're outsourcing, why does the architecture matter? As long as they provide proper SLA (and mesh with your TCO/ROI), you'll be fine. Of course, if they can't provide a TCO/ROI for the project, then they've got a problem. > I'm worried that this uncertaintly is going to delay their movement into the > Cloud, and this is going to cost them far more in the long run, than the > initial investment > in the chosen outsourced virtualization solution. On the other hand, it's best to do it right, and if that means delaying a bit and taking your time to dot the i's and cross the t's, then so be it. -Adam From dredd@megacity.org Sun Mar 7 14:23:09 2010 Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27MN9Oa000858 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 14:23:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBCFD1F70026; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 17:23:03 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JuuT2a55iE+9; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 17:23:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from akebono.megacity.org (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2DDF01F70008; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 17:23:03 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 17:23:01 -0500 Message-Id: <8763B9F9-1D46-4574-AE13-3A880D59E8DA@megacity.org> References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> <4B938310.9020101@iinet.net.au> To: Adam Levin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o27MN9Oa000858 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Virtualization question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 22:23:09 -0000 On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:48 PM, Adam Levin wrote: > Actually, we're avoiding blades. We just don't really see the point. We don't have a standard platform as yet, but we generally use HP DL3xx and DL5xx series stuff for our vSphere farms. Reasons for moving from DL- to BL-series hardware: - Ease of management - Cabling reduction - More efficient power usage Cheers, D From levins@westnet.com Sun Mar 7 14:45:17 2010 Received: from westnet.com (root@westnet.com [216.187.52.2]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27MjGXZ001463 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 14:45:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from levins@westnet.com) Received: from westnet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id o27MjFn0001108 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 17:45:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (levins@localhost) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.13.2/Submit) with ESMTP id o27MjFe7001104 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 17:45:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 17:45:15 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Levin To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org In-Reply-To: <8763B9F9-1D46-4574-AE13-3A880D59E8DA@megacity.org> Message-ID: References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> <4B938310.9020101@iinet.net.au> <8763B9F9-1D46-4574-AE13-3A880D59E8DA@megacity.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: [SAGE] Virtualization question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 22:45:17 -0000 On Sun, 7 Mar 2010, Derek J. Balling wrote: > Reasons for moving from DL- to BL-series hardware: > - Ease of management > - Cabling reduction > - More efficient power usage I'm not sure about how a blade enclosure's power requirements match with a big DL5xx, though. As for cabling, CNA's resolve that. Maybe ease of management, but if I can manage one DL580 in the same space as one blade enclosure with 8 servers, I'd rather stick with the DL580. The power and memory in the DL's work very well for us, and we've had some issues with blade enclosure firmware and limitations as well. The hardware vendors are all pushing blades very strongly. We've never been impressed enough with the differences to warrant using them. -Adam From dhanks@gmail.com Sun Mar 7 15:27:17 2010 Received: from mail-pw0-f42.google.com (mail-pw0-f42.google.com [209.85.160.42]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o27NRHut002225 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 15:27:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: by pwi10 with SMTP id 10so3097276pwi.1 for ; Sun, 07 Mar 2010 15:27:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=LcHIlJgCWhCASzYtyyHlwoBV1ONj/QWlhzWxSwpKB9M=; b=SAEi26L650AVkDQo6kqf1cACm8+T1teXCY3qVouBub+BpVt7ASAqR6i41KUn9RGi6E 0OdpfHT+yPvfxXTT0HQKNMlF6yqeGaccgrbWJD5co81l7Dx2U78BkEULZtuHb8xXM7gn Stt2mba6igFEhYBS5v6YvybEtnwjMTgFCVhdU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=RcnxYvnHyuTH8ZL/Tmeg3i+THQGx07ql0/CCCdaee8cMoZ4TgMrwNLA7qYFdEbY2XC DyijJHUO0Vb88mznJYWpLPpd13iy1ZnCpnZ0A0vF2mwLoouh21+n0/k57CmfnQNEVH3w uynd89wKmMbGp+SH8HMjvLjijj7ba6G7jeo6o= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.61.13 with SMTP id o13mr2755683wak.28.1268004432086; Sun, 07 Mar 2010 15:27:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> <4B938310.9020101@iinet.net.au> <8763B9F9-1D46-4574-AE13-3A880D59E8DA@megacity.org> Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 15:27:12 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1003071527l7770d045uc1cc23349841e4c2@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: Adam Levin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Virtualization question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 23:27:17 -0000 Don't want to put all your eggs in a big basket. When a DL580 goes down - that takes out about 250 VMs - versus if a BL-whatever goes down, it's probably around 75 to 100 VMs. I know you can mitigate with HA features. CNAs make no sense - if you want a converged data and storage network - just use iSCSI and run 10GB to the host - which makes another case for the BL-whatever. On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 2:45 PM, Adam Levin wrote: > > On Sun, 7 Mar 2010, Derek J. Balling wrote: > >> Reasons for moving from DL- to BL-series hardware: >> - Ease of management >> - Cabling reduction >> - More efficient power usage >> > > I'm not sure about how a blade enclosure's power requirements match with a > big DL5xx, though. > > As for cabling, CNA's resolve that. > > Maybe ease of management, but if I can manage one DL580 in the same space > as one blade enclosure with 8 servers, I'd rather stick with the DL580. The > power and memory in the DL's work very well for us, and we've had some > issues with blade enclosure firmware and limitations as well. > > The hardware vendors are all pushing blades very strongly. We've never > been impressed enough with the differences to warrant using them. > > -Adam > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From dredd@megacity.org Sun Mar 7 16:01:58 2010 Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2801wQq002948 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 16:01:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060E61F70026; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 19:01:53 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U9PXKs0lIJm5; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 19:01:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from akebono.megacity.org (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1CA8E1F70008; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 19:01:42 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 19:01:40 -0500 Message-Id: References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> <4B938310.9020101@iinet.net.au> <8763B9F9-1D46-4574-AE13-3A880D59E8DA@megacity.org> To: Adam Levin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Virtualization question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 00:01:58 -0000 On Mar 7, 2010, at 5:45 PM, Adam Levin wrote: > Maybe ease of management, but if I can manage one DL580 in the same = space as one blade enclosure with 8 servers, I'd rather stick with the = DL580. The power and memory in the DL's work very well for us, and we've = had some issues with blade enclosure firmware and limitations as well. What kind of issues? Just curious, because we've moved to a model of = only the barest fraction of our servers sit on DL-series hardware any = more, with 99.9% of our servers being blades.=20 From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Sun Mar 7 16:58:24 2010 Received: from tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.93]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o280wN1M004033 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 16:58:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toip4.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.87]) by tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100308005823.FBXT28265.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip4.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 19:58:23 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAC7Wk0tMRCV+/2dsb2JhbAAH0zyEeASDFw Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279534462.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.68.37.126]) by toip4.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 07 Mar 2010 20:21:04 -0500 Message-Id: <6C4DFD09-0CC0-48E4-A0F4-B9E6AFCC3D63@ee.ryerson.ca> From: David Magda To: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: <8763B9F9-1D46-4574-AE13-3A880D59E8DA@megacity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 19:58:22 -0500 References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> <4B938310.9020101@iinet.net.au> <8763B9F9-1D46-4574-AE13-3A880D59E8DA@megacity.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Virtualization question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 00:58:24 -0000 On Mar 7, 2010, at 17:23, Derek J. Balling wrote: > On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:48 PM, Adam Levin wrote: >> Actually, we're avoiding blades. We just don't really see the >> point. We don't have a standard platform as yet, but we generally >> use HP DL3xx and DL5xx series stuff for our vSphere farms. > > Reasons for moving from DL- to BL-series hardware: > > - Ease of management > - Cabling reduction > - More efficient power usage It also potentially puts more wattage into a rack, which may affect things from the cooling perspective. Using a handy power calculator from Sun/Oracle, a rack full of 6048s blade chassises (four of them) can reach up to 26 kW going full bore. We started a major virtualizing to reduce hardware because we were running out of power in our DC, and things were fairly successful in that we got rid of a lot of "idle" hardware. This dropped the usage on the UPSes down to a more reasonable level, but of course virtual machines then started sprouting up, and so electrical utilization started going up. :) As for ease of management: you're managing machines, and whether they're on real or virtual hardware doesn't really matter as it's still an OS image to look after. Of course it is one less piece of hardware that you have to cover under warranty, but you're trading VM software licensing fees for the overhead of baby sitting 1U servers. From levins@westnet.com Sun Mar 7 17:00:47 2010 Received: from westnet.com (root@westnet.com [216.187.52.2]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2810kVP004110 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 17:00:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from levins@westnet.com) Received: from westnet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id o2810kPu018838 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 20:00:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (levins@localhost) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.13.2/Submit) with ESMTP id o2810jaV018834 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 20:00:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 20:00:45 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Levin To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1003071527l7770d045uc1cc23349841e4c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> <4B938310.9020101@iinet.net.au> <8763B9F9-1D46-4574-AE13-3A880D59E8DA@megacity.org> <82a71f8a1003071527l7770d045uc1cc23349841e4c2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: [SAGE] Virtualization question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 01:00:47 -0000 On Sun, 7 Mar 2010, Doug Hanks wrote: > Don't want to put all your eggs in a big basket. When a DL580 goes down - > that takes out about 250 VMs - versus if a BL-whatever goes down, it's > probably around 75 to 100 VMs. I know you can mitigate with HA features. Sure, but that's also a difference in the kinds of infrastructure we're talking about. Our data center will have thousands of VMs, so it'll have dozens of DL580s, not just one. :) > CNAs make no sense - if you want a converged data and storage network - just > use iSCSI and run 10GB to the host - which makes another case for the > BL-whatever. I think the jury's out on FCoE. Personally, I'm not convinced it makes all that much sense anyway, since I have a feeling people are going to want a full 10Gb for IP traffic, and 8Gb is already here for FC SAN. So far, I haven't heard of any data centers using iSCSI. It seems pretty good for the SMB space, but I'm not finding widescale acceptance of it in large installations, where it seems like FC is still the dominant player. All I know is that where I am, we're not seeing the blade platform win on price/performance, regardless of power/rackspace, where for VMWare it's not that different to use a few big honkin' servers. -Adam From levins@westnet.com Sun Mar 7 17:02:01 2010 Received: from westnet.com (root@westnet.com [216.187.52.2]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o28120wP004163 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 17:02:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from levins@westnet.com) Received: from westnet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id o28120So019026 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 20:02:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (levins@localhost) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.13.2/Submit) with ESMTP id o281205A019022 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 20:02:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 20:02:00 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Levin To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> <4B938310.9020101@iinet.net.au> <8763B9F9-1D46-4574-AE13-3A880D59E8DA@megacity.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: [SAGE] Virtualization question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 01:02:01 -0000 On Sun, 7 Mar 2010, Derek J. Balling wrote: > What kind of issues? Just curious, because we've moved to a model of > only the barest fraction of our servers sit on DL-series hardware any > more, with 99.9% of our servers being blades. Our guys had a problem with a blade enclosure firmware issue where there was a bug, and when they upgraded the firmware the whole enclosure went down despite redundancies. That was a mess. I can try to get more details. I *believe* it was an HP bladecenter, but I'm not positive. -Adam From levins@westnet.com Sun Mar 7 17:11:39 2010 Received: from westnet.com (root@westnet.com [216.187.52.2]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o281Bdwl004350 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 17:11:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from levins@westnet.com) Received: from westnet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id o281BcZd020377 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 20:11:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (levins@localhost) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.13.2/Submit) with ESMTP id o281Bcv4020374 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 20:11:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 20:11:38 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Levin To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> <4B938310.9020101@iinet.net.au> <8763B9F9-1D46-4574-AE13-3A880D59E8DA@megacity.org> <82a71f8a1003071527l7770d045uc1cc23349841e4c2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: [SAGE] Virtualization question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 01:11:40 -0000 On Sun, 7 Mar 2010, Adam Levin wrote: > On Sun, 7 Mar 2010, Doug Hanks wrote: >> Don't want to put all your eggs in a big basket. When a DL580 goes down - >> that takes out about 250 VMs - versus if a BL-whatever goes down, it's >> probably around 75 to 100 VMs. I know you can mitigate with HA features. > > Sure, but that's also a difference in the kinds of infrastructure we're > talking about. Our data center will have thousands of VMs, so it'll have > dozens of DL580s, not just one. :) The other thing to consider is that for around the same base price, you can get a DL360 or DL380 vs. a Blade server, but the DL can hold twice the memory. That doesn't include the chassis cost. The DL5xx doubles again the memory, but of course the pricing is proportionate. :) In our experience, at least, blades make sense for compute clusters, but not for VMs, which in our case are memory-bound, followed by I/O bound, not CPU bound. -Adam From dhanks@gmail.com Sun Mar 7 17:45:07 2010 Received: from mail-pv0-f170.google.com (mail-pv0-f170.google.com [74.125.83.170]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o281j7xN004830 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 17:45:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: by pvg7 with SMTP id 7so1502535pvg.1 for ; Sun, 07 Mar 2010 17:45:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ynhmaOYMnIfFIUUfcqQcYCOx0K2n29X+4f02HMVm05A=; b=iV+DzpXUWzkow8W6sA70iTM2Bw4TuviSKZI8I+m/VQTHz6PNyOQDB5SbW5ElHYwKUv iCt1QIzdnVcHDbkZTZBENvtHUXUkSjlwhcGkAYGS1hwpaLgEJRWFB1ghMep2t8/JtVAW XFJKQYOUYWLaiJqxqocnpYVXlJW0B58OYOpzg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=TvuIiK3KMy61rZrkIIy1Mog7j6nWKLW/ZM7lNMKmcQ6QXvX1yEky93dDfJwNc/BwD8 o3lcu2JglqpBIG6yC80DDfOSse/IvOj17TWGf/B/ZQdn9VBPVdg2K6sgrnG62XhllGZY CJPzTEk4uJtaRfI/XDDn0r9OuDgmzmh/psU00= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.3.2 with SMTP id 2mr2783671wac.156.1268012701656; Sun, 07 Mar 2010 17:45:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> <4B938310.9020101@iinet.net.au> <8763B9F9-1D46-4574-AE13-3A880D59E8DA@megacity.org> <82a71f8a1003071527l7770d045uc1cc23349841e4c2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 17:45:01 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1003071745o57c4e9c7h399292e18170df80@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: Adam Levin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Virtualization question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 01:45:07 -0000 FCoE just doesn't make sense. The problem has always been managing a separate network just for FC. So why bother combining the data and storage with a CNA adapter, then up to a Cisco Nexus 5k - then split it back out again to a MDS/Brocade and Ethernet. The veterans will argue FC performs better - I kinda reminisce about an old book called "The UNIX Philosophy." It covered topics regarding choosing portability over performance - and I can't help think about FC versus Ethernet. Not to mention that FC is its own little world/beast. Every postmortem I've seen regarding storage has always been about the firmware versions and compatibility between the multipathing software; the HBAs; the SAN HBAs; the type of FC switch you're using (is it MDS or Brocade? big difference) and the SAN firmware itself. It's almost impossible to get all of them synchronized, unless you vendor lock yourself. Really don't have any of that nonsense with NFS or iSCSI. I've seen plenty of large scale implementations using NFS or iSCSI. These were green field deployments without legacy to worry about. I would seriously question introducing FC into a green field environment. On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Adam Levin wrote: > > On Sun, 7 Mar 2010, Doug Hanks wrote: > >> Don't want to put all your eggs in a big basket. When a DL580 goes down - >> that takes out about 250 VMs - versus if a BL-whatever goes down, it's >> probably around 75 to 100 VMs. I know you can mitigate with HA features. >> > > Sure, but that's also a difference in the kinds of infrastructure we're > talking about. Our data center will have thousands of VMs, so it'll have > dozens of DL580s, not just one. :) > > > CNAs make no sense - if you want a converged data and storage network - >> just >> use iSCSI and run 10GB to the host - which makes another case for the >> BL-whatever. >> > > I think the jury's out on FCoE. Personally, I'm not convinced it makes all > that much sense anyway, since I have a feeling people are going to want a > full 10Gb for IP traffic, and 8Gb is already here for FC SAN. > > So far, I haven't heard of any data centers using iSCSI. It seems pretty > good for the SMB space, but I'm not finding widescale acceptance of it in > large installations, where it seems like FC is still the dominant player. > > All I know is that where I am, we're not seeing the blade platform win on > price/performance, regardless of power/rackspace, where for VMWare it's not > that different to use a few big honkin' servers. > > > -Adam > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From dredd@megacity.org Sun Mar 7 17:55:27 2010 Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o281tRWt005058 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 17:55:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A18991F70026; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 20:55:22 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nlGLzJYgyx7W; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 20:55:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from akebono.megacity.org (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 993C41F70008; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 20:55:21 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 20:55:14 -0500 Message-Id: <8A111120-DE68-4990-9DAC-3DA976BA8837@megacity.org> References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> <4B938310.9020101@iinet.net.au> <8763B9F9-1D46-4574-AE13-3A880D59E8DA@megacity.org> <82a71f8a1003071527l7770d045uc1cc23349841e4c2@mail.gmail.com> To: Adam Levin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Virtualization question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 01:55:28 -0000 On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:00 PM, Adam Levin wrote: > So far, I haven't heard of any data centers using iSCSI. It seems = pretty good for the SMB space, but I'm not finding widescale acceptance = of it in large installations, where it seems like FC is still the = dominant player. I guess that depends on what you define as "SMB" and what you define as = "large". We're using iSCSI for all of our VM backend in multiple = data-centers (although, to be clear, not "inter-datacenter") and have = been extremely happy with it. The HP/LeftHand virtual storage appliances = are - hands down - the best storage systems I've worked with (and I used = to be a huge NetApp bigot). ... and then he said to someone else: > The other thing to consider is that for around the same base price, = you can get a DL360 or DL380 vs. a Blade server, but the DL can hold = twice the memory. That doesn't include the chassis cost. The DL5xx = doubles again the memory, but of course the pricing is proportionate. = :) A BL490G6 Virtualization Blade can hold 192GB of RAM[1]. A DL380G6 can = hold 192GB[2]. A DL580G5 can hold 256GB[3]. So the "BL490G6 -> DL580G5" = transition isn't double the memory, and it's certainly not a factor of = four like you're implying. :-) (these are the most-current generations of the Intel versions of these = blades/servers). And put it in perspective... in a standard 42U cabinet, you can put (4) = 10U chassis, with 16 blades each for a total of 12,288GB of RAM and 512 = cores. In that same cabinet, you can fit (10) 4U DL580G5 systems with a = total of 2560GB of RAM and 320 cores. Now, which one of those gave you the most efficient use of your space, = and the greatest flexibility in terms of how to subdivide those = resources? =20 And let's not get bogged down in "chassis cost"... I'm buying my chassis = for right around $10K a pop, which when I'm talking about installing = sixty-four fully maxed out dual-quad-core-192GB-of-RAM blades[4]... is = just a rounding error on the non-recurring costs. Sorry, I'm going to take blades hands-down on that front. Cheers, D [1] = http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/13236_div/13236_div.HTML [2] = http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/13234_div/13234_div.HTML [3] = http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/12770_div/12770_div.HTML [4] ObDisclaimer: I don't actually personally deploy that many servers = like that, but if I did, it'd be a rounding error. :-)= From levins@westnet.com Sun Mar 7 18:39:56 2010 Received: from westnet.com (root@westnet.com [216.187.52.2]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o282du7h005876 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 18:39:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from levins@westnet.com) Received: from westnet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id o282dtSY002562 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 21:39:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (levins@localhost) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.13.2/Submit) with ESMTP id o282dteJ002558 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 21:39:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 21:39:55 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Levin To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1003071745o57c4e9c7h399292e18170df80@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> <4B938310.9020101@iinet.net.au> <8763B9F9-1D46-4574-AE13-3A880D59E8DA@megacity.org> <82a71f8a1003071527l7770d045uc1cc23349841e4c2@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003071745o57c4e9c7h399292e18170df80@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: [SAGE] Virtualization question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 02:39:57 -0000 On Sun, 7 Mar 2010, Doug Hanks wrote: > Not to mention that FC is its own little world/beast. Every postmortem I've > seen regarding storage has always been about the firmware versions and > compatibility between the multipathing software; the HBAs; the SAN HBAs; the > type of FC switch you're using (is it MDS or Brocade? big difference) and > the SAN firmware itself. It's almost impossible to get all of them > synchronized, unless you vendor lock yourself. Really don't have any of > that nonsense with NFS or iSCSI. Well, in a way you're preaching to the choir, because I've always like the simplicity of dealing with NFS. Still, FC is here, has been here, and will likely be here for a while, especially in large data centers. As for being synchronized, we've got a lab with an old McData fabric that includes an MDS, just got a Nexus 5k to play with (and you don't need the Nexus if you prefer Brocade's world), and to add to the chaos we have an IBM SVC virtualizing things in the middle. Amazingly, it all works. :) > I've seen plenty of large scale implementations using NFS or iSCSI. These > were green field deployments without legacy to worry about. I'd love to hear from someone who runs a large data center on iSCSI. I've asked before, but haven't gotten any feedback. There are good and bad things about both iSCSI and FC, and as with most things computer-related, many people have chosen their religion. I haven't really been working with FC long enough to be able to defend it, but it pays the bills. > I would seriously question introducing FC into a green field environment. Well that's fine, and like I said I'm open to the idea. We actually have the opportunity to do an enterprise green field datacenter, but I guarantee there'll be pushback if it's mentioned that FC should be scrapped. Unless there's a solid body of evidence to the contrary, iSCSI will continue to be considered small-time. 10GbE was compelling, but with 8Gb FC and 16Gb on the way, it's not so much, at least until 40GbE comes along. After that, we'll start running into PCI bus limitations... -Adam From levins@westnet.com Sun Mar 7 18:46:04 2010 Received: from westnet.com (root@westnet.com [216.187.52.2]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o282k3Vq005946 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 18:46:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from levins@westnet.com) Received: from westnet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id o282k3KI003443 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 21:46:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (levins@localhost) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.13.2/Submit) with ESMTP id o282k3k3003440 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 21:46:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 21:46:03 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Levin To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org In-Reply-To: <8A111120-DE68-4990-9DAC-3DA976BA8837@megacity.org> Message-ID: References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> <4B938310.9020101@iinet.net.au> <8763B9F9-1D46-4574-AE13-3A880D59E8DA@megacity.org> <82a71f8a1003071527l7770d045uc1cc23349841e4c2@mail.gmail.com> <8A111120-DE68-4990-9DAC-3DA976BA8837@megacity.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: [SAGE] Virtualization question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 02:46:04 -0000 On Sun, 7 Mar 2010, Derek J. Balling wrote: > I guess that depends on what you define as "SMB" and what you define as > "large". We're using iSCSI for all of our VM backend in multiple > data-centers (although, to be clear, not "inter-datacenter") and have > been extremely happy with it. The HP/LeftHand virtual storage appliances > are - hands down - the best storage systems I've worked with (and I used > to be a huge NetApp bigot). We're about to start testing some LeftHand stuff -- it looks very interesting. We're talking about a datacenter with a couple of PB of storage and a few thousand VMs along with a few hundred stand-alone servers. > A BL490G6 Virtualization Blade can hold 192GB of RAM[1]. A DL380G6 can > hold 192GB[2]. A DL580G5 can hold 256GB[3]. So the "BL490G6 -> DL580G5" > transition isn't double the memory, and it's certainly not a factor of > four like you're implying. :-) Ah, I was looking at the 200 series blades, not the 400's. Now it makes more sense. > And let's not get bogged down in "chassis cost"... I'm buying my chassis > for right around $10K a pop, which when I'm talking about installing > sixty-four fully maxed out dual-quad-core-192GB-of-RAM blades[4]... is > just a rounding error on the non-recurring costs. Hehe, I like that -- "rounding error". I should try that -- maybe I can get it past the purchasing people! :) -Adam From doug@will.to Sun Mar 7 19:56:38 2010 Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o283ubTa007177 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 19:56:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from [192.168.1.52] (h-68-164-136-126.nycmny83.static.covad.net [68.164.136.126]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id o283uamS007485 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2010 22:56:36 -0500 Message-ID: <4B947582.9010900@will.to> Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 22:56:51 -0500 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> <4B938310.9020101@iinet.net.au> <8763B9F9-1D46-4574-AE13-3A880D59E8DA@megacity.org> <82a71f8a1003071527l7770d045uc1cc23349841e4c2@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003071745o57c4e9c7h399292e18170df80@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Sun, 07 Mar 2010 22:56:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] Virtualization question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 03:56:38 -0000 I think the discussion of FCoE vs ISCSI has drifted a bit afield of the original, but, I'll chime in with some tidbits. Let's not forget that ISCSI is an absolute beast of a specification spanning 15 RFCs. The main one, RFC 3720 is 257 pages all by itself. Now, the FCOE draft standard itself isn't especially nimble at 180, but in terms of storage protocol features, SCSI is still trying to catch up. Larger packet sizes, direct device-device communication, zoning, RDMA, multi-fabric topologies, automatic device addressing, strong integrity verification, and other features have been in FC for years. ISCSI is a complicated, custom block protocol on top of TCP/IP, shoe horning a low-level disk command protocol onto the IP stack. Sure, 10G makes it possible, but the overhead means that 8Gbit FC connection is much more efficient and lower overhead than ISCSI on 10G. Not to say economics don't make a difference. FCOE provides a way to leverage your existing SAN infrastructure and bridge it onto your existing 10G network. If you already have an FC infrastructure, you can keep using your existing tools. If you don't have an existing FC infrastructure, ISCSI probably looks attractive owing to its price. If you do, FCOE looks attractive because of its promised transparent expansion of the existing SAN infrastructure onto less expensive media. ISCSI depends upon TCP for retransmission, and ARP, both of which introduce some extra latency. FCoE expects transmission loss to be done via 802.1Qbb (draft standard) which should result in much lower latency (~10:1) and builtin congestion control. Would I install FCoE in a fresh setup today? It depends.. I wouldn't necessarily rule it out out-of-hand. But most people who will be installing FCoE already have an FC infrastructure, and vendor adoption and support is very strong. Datacenter Bridding/Converved Enhanced Ethernet (nee Cisco's Datacenter Ethernet) is changing a lot of things.. references: http://virtualgeek.typepad.com/virtual_geek/2009/06/why-fcoe-why-not-just-nas-and-iscsi.html http://www.ieee802.org/1/pages/802.1bb.html http://storusint.com/pdf/*SCSI*_*vs*_*FC*.pdf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_center_bridging From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Mon Mar 8 07:22:00 2010 Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o28FLxNU018956 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2010 07:21:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o28FMA1A022501; Mon, 8 Mar 2010 10:22:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Mon, 8 Mar 2010 10:22:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <48614.207.61.230.154.1268061730.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <4B947582.9010900@will.to> References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> <4B938310.9020101@iinet.net.au> <8763B9F9-1D46-4574-AE13-3A880D59E8DA@megacity.org> <82a71f8a1003071527l7770d045uc1cc23349841e4c2@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003071745o57c4e9c7h399292e18170df80@mail.gmail.com> <4B947582.9010900@will.to> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 10:22:10 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Doug Hughes" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Virtualization question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 15:22:00 -0000 On Sun, March 7, 2010 22:56, Doug Hughes wrote: > ISCSI depends upon TCP for retransmission, and ARP, both of which > introduce some extra latency. FCoE expects transmission loss to be done > via 802.1Qbb (draft standard) which should result in much lower latency > (~10:1) and builtin congestion control. [...] > Datacenter Bridding/Converved Enhanced Ethernet (nee Cisco's Datacenter > Ethernet) is changing a lot of things.. iSCSI can also take advantage of this as well. For completeness, it should also be mentioned that iSCSI runs just fine on top of InfiniBand, if you're into that sort of thing. IB has shipping equipment available in the 96 Gb/s range, and has very low latencies (as well as RDMA). From levins@westnet.com Mon Mar 8 07:38:44 2010 Received: from westnet.com (root@westnet.com [216.187.52.2]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o28Fch4g019341 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2010 07:38:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from levins@westnet.com) Received: from westnet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id o28Fccb0027277; Mon, 8 Mar 2010 10:38:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (levins@localhost) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.13.2/Submit) with ESMTP id o28FccGl027269; Mon, 8 Mar 2010 10:38:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 10:38:38 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Levin To: David Magda In-Reply-To: <48614.207.61.230.154.1268061730.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: References: <4B9353C7.4050405@symas.com> <4B938310.9020101@iinet.net.au> <8763B9F9-1D46-4574-AE13-3A880D59E8DA@megacity.org> <82a71f8a1003071527l7770d045uc1cc23349841e4c2@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003071745o57c4e9c7h399292e18170df80@mail.gmail.com> <4B947582.9010900@will.to> <48614.207.61.230.154.1268061730.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org, Doug Hughes Subject: Re: [SAGE] Virtualization question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 15:38:44 -0000 On Mon, 8 Mar 2010, David Magda wrote: > On Sun, March 7, 2010 22:56, Doug Hughes wrote: >> ISCSI depends upon TCP for retransmission, and ARP, both of which >> introduce some extra latency. FCoE expects transmission loss to be done >> via 802.1Qbb (draft standard) which should result in much lower latency >> (~10:1) and builtin congestion control. > > iSCSI can also take advantage of this as well. True -- anything that runs on Ethernet, including IP, can take advantage of the new changes. I'm curious what the real world performance comparison is between, let's say, 1Gb FC and 1Gb iSCSI, and then how that translates to 8Gb FC vs. 10Gb iSCSI. -Adam From rskiadmin@chycoski.com Mon Mar 8 08:37:56 2010 Received: from adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.122.242.225]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o28GbsRQ020542 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:37:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rskiadmin@chycoski.com) Received: from [192.168.72.2] (wizfast.rski.net [192.168.72.2]) by adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o28Glpff013029; Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:47:54 -0800 Message-ID: <4B9527D1.6050204@chycoski.com> Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 08:37:37 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dan@geer.org References: <20100307140450.4408D33D17@absinthe.tinho.net> In-Reply-To: <20100307140450.4408D33D17@absinthe.tinho.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] The term "crash" (Jon 'maddog' Hall) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 16:37:56 -0000 dan@geer.org wrote: > | > | Many systems administrators had an old disk platter hanging > | on the wall to warn new operators not to even THINK about > | smoking on the job. > | > > > > Mainframe-centric academic computing center, 1983 or so: > > We installed a new brand of removable disk drives. We > had never seen them in action. Neither had the tech > who installed them. Sadly, the instructions did not > reveal *all* the places where packing foam was hidden, > so we turned them on with the airways to the cooling > fans partially blocked. A few days later, one of them > fully inhaled a block of foam, and caught fire. Half > of all drives croaked over the ensuing month; we guessed > in retrospect it was deposition of plastic smoke. > > --dan > New concrete emits gases that also shortened the life of disk drives and mainframes themselves, in at least one case an entire mainframe installation had to be replaced due to corrosion caused by the concrete in a new data centre (this was in the late '70s or early '80s). A source of information that might be helpful is Bitsavers , they have a lot of old manuals stored away. Unfortunately, you can't text search them, the manuals are stored as images (but if you've got a good OCR system around, I'd be happy to see the docs there converted to text for easy searching :-)... Some of the docs on the site are from the '40s and '50s. - Richard From dhanks@gmail.com Mon Mar 8 09:43:22 2010 Received: from mail-px0-f183.google.com (mail-px0-f183.google.com [209.85.216.183]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o28HhM44021765 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2010 09:43:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: by pxi13 with SMTP id 13so2018064pxi.22 for ; Mon, 08 Mar 2010 09:43:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=A1DPQXohMf2LofXlQmWScufF4PqKv7Qjk2qv2qj8bjc=; b=qlJAG5I8LqE+A0xMKJWfBdg+yoQRhJ42fbDkMVsaVynTu2Yvuh0Jwe6WvZlR41kgCp csl1dJXhUavAsalolJAOhZVr/AbU5WNglJvG00dGJyneW+onD4/lnPBbGJdZZsC08Cpa bR9Gwkk7TbG14kInoIKZ8V9baujp3xYWR5jYM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=Au1CozZ00XPyyE1Rsu0K8mw385+PqEQZKRvw47pKhvk/e7FA0PLSHto+n7KTIe3Pw1 xSCO8qbr4MNe+v1rHqQisHcFeXncD5lM8K2BZhyRGVuvfv941e1v2Xn5e5QmRrYjhqF0 0CxYfyU6NQWg4c0dWX2EIlP8RTR8f8dBIom3A= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.119.6 with SMTP id r6mr3490501wac.80.1268070196949; Mon, 08 Mar 2010 09:43:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <8763B9F9-1D46-4574-AE13-3A880D59E8DA@megacity.org> <82a71f8a1003071527l7770d045uc1cc23349841e4c2@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003071745o57c4e9c7h399292e18170df80@mail.gmail.com> <4B947582.9010900@will.to> <48614.207.61.230.154.1268061730.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 09:43:16 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1003080943l13fdf7fch725f8f8b75a583c9@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: Adam Levin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org, Doug Hughes Subject: Re: [SAGE] Virtualization question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 17:43:22 -0000 NetApp and VMware have released whitepapers and research on these exact questions. The bottom-line is that these technologies leap frog each other - and FC/iSCSI/NFS are all within 5-8% of each other. In the 10GB spectrum, iSCSI is pulling ahead. It's just the entire Intel/AMD argument all over again in terms of performance. What really matters is true convergence of data, storage and voice. It's only going to happen with Ethernet. FC switches need to die. I can't make any comments on DCE - no experience with it. The prioritization bit sounds confusing, as it seems that QoS already does this today. Otherwise it adds congestion control (which again QoS does this) and a protocol to negotiate the above mentioned items. Doug On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 7:38 AM, Adam Levin wrote: > > On Mon, 8 Mar 2010, David Magda wrote: > >> On Sun, March 7, 2010 22:56, Doug Hughes wrote: >> >>> ISCSI depends upon TCP for retransmission, and ARP, both of which >>> introduce some extra latency. FCoE expects transmission loss to be done >>> via 802.1Qbb (draft standard) which should result in much lower latency >>> (~10:1) and builtin congestion control. >>> >> >> iSCSI can also take advantage of this as well. >> > > True -- anything that runs on Ethernet, including IP, can take advantage of > the new changes. > > I'm curious what the real world performance comparison is between, let's > say, 1Gb FC and 1Gb iSCSI, and then how that translates to 8Gb FC vs. 10Gb > iSCSI. > > -Adam > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From pmm@igtc.com Mon Mar 8 17:07:07 2010 Received: from ignite.igtc.com (ignite.igtc.com [72.51.38.13]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o29177qK034123 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2010 17:07:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pmm@igtc.com) Received: from [192.168.2.105] (unknown [76.200.184.135]) (Authenticated sender: pmm) by ignite.igtc.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C3BCBE1806A; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 01:07:06 +0000 (UTC) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Paul M. Moriarty" In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 17:07:05 -0800 Message-Id: <1F1A1B88-A4EB-42B8-B44C-9124F7293509@igtc.com> References: To: Andrew Hume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o29177qK034123 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] The term "crash" (Jon 'maddog' Hall) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 01:07:07 -0000 I remember it being used in this same context referring to a DECsystem-10 @ WPI in 1976. On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:01 PM, Andrew Hume wrote: > Jon, > > at my first commercial gig, the hardware include a giant magnetic drum > (a precursor to the magnetic disk). these were large dangerous things, > full of rotational momentum. but to return to the point, one thing i was > explicitly told about was that in an emergenvy, the heads had to be manually > retracted from the drum surface, otherwise they would cause damage. > this latter was known as a 'head crash'. > > ------------------ > Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 > andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 > AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and LOPSA > > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From dpuryear@puryear-it.com Tue Mar 9 11:28:59 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o29JSwo5060219 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 11:28:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpuryear@puryear-it.com) Received: from mail.puryear-it.com (mail.puryear-it.com [207.29.213.194]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o29JStZn006405 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 11:28:58 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:28:10 -0600 Message-ID: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E176472@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years Thread-Index: AcqvPw83Uz7RkmTlQKK2EFWi18772QQf4tkQ References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <20100216193038.GJ391@otoh.org> From: "Dustin Puryear" To: "Paul Armstrong" , "Rus Foster" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o29JSwo5060219 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 19:28:59 -0000 Re: "OpenSolaris and Linux both have load balancers built into them now." What is built into OpenSolaris? I assume you mean LVS for Linux? --- Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Paul Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 1:31 PM To: Rus Foster Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years At 2010-02-16T19:00+0000, Rus Foster wrote: > To current a long story short I've been in a bit of a technical rut > for the last few years with work related things so now I want to do a > crash course in things I've missed. Digging around I've come across > the following programs that looks like it would be worth putting some > time into to learn > > Puppet > Ext4 > Xen/KVM ReviewBoard. Code reviews are a significant process improvement to bring to your team. Solaris 10 or OpenSolaris and the following features specifically: * ZFS * Dtrace * Zones * Crossbow (OpenSolaris only) OpenSolaris and Linux both have load balancers built into them now. OpenSolaris's one is easier to use but still fairly new and lacking a few features. Amazon web services may be worth learning depending on what your company does and what you're interested in getting into. If you've not played a lot with LDAP you should. I recommend (in my order of preference, others will disagree): OpenDS, Sun Directory Server and OpenLDAP. If you're interested in playing with Windows at all (or integrating with it), you _need_ to learn Active Directory properly. The hot languages at the moment are Ruby and Python if you haven't learned a language recently. Paul _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From dpuryear@puryear-it.com Tue Mar 9 11:59:13 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o29JxDeB061114 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 11:59:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpuryear@puryear-it.com) Received: from mail.puryear-it.com (mail.puryear-it.com [207.29.213.194]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o29JxAhg007036 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 11:59:13 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:58:25 -0600 Message-ID: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E176478@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? Thread-Index: Acq8ml7NJuCIbjEuQRGedQ7odmtOhADKCvkA References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> From: "Dustin Puryear" To: "David N. Blank-Edelman" , "SAGE Members" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o29JxDeB061114 Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 19:59:14 -0000 I've had success when using a combination of Monster.com and BrainBench. I'll post to Monster.com, get X replies, throw out 80% (with a polite email msg of course), phone interview the 20%, throw out half of those, BrainBench test the remaining 10%, and then onsite interview the final 5%. --- Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of David N. Blank-Edelman Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 1:24 PM To: SAGE Members Subject: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? Hi- I'm just about to have a Unix sysadmin position open up here working for me at a university in Boston when I realized that my current understanding of the best place to advertise the position is way out of date. I've had very low turn-over in my group, so the last time I had to go through this process for this kind of job was some seven-ish years ago. My scanty recollection is that the large job sites aren't a particularly good source for candidates. Is that still true? Any place you'd recommend I post the position? Thanks! -- dNb _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Tue Mar 9 13:00:10 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o29L0Ata062889 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:00:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o29L06VP008385 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:00:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o29L0D4d025762; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:00:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:00:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <26672.207.61.230.154.1268168413.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E176472@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <20100216193038.GJ391@otoh.org> <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E176472@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:00:13 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Dustin Puryear" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:00:10 -0000 On Tue, March 9, 2010 14:28, Dustin Puryear wrote: > Re: "OpenSolaris and Linux both have load balancers built into them > now." > > What is built into OpenSolaris? Layers 3 and 4: http://wikis.sun.com/display/OpenSolarisInfo/Integrated+Load+Balancer Build 129 also had VRRP added (not exactly load balancing, but useful): http://static.opensolaris.org/on/flagdays/126-130.html From sage-list-psa@otoh.org Tue Mar 9 13:04:41 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o29L4ef6062995 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:04:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sage-list-psa@otoh.org) Received: from pmon001.zetta.net (ssg-corp.zetta.net [74.114.124.9]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o29L4bUR008484 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:04:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from bilby.zetta.net (bilby.zetta.net [10.10.1.16]) by pmon001.zetta.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6CE20001C90; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 21:04:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: by bilby.zetta.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8C099C50FEB1F; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:04:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:04:32 -0800 From: Paul Armstrong To: Dustin Puryear Message-ID: <20100309210432.GA4441@otoh.org> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <20100216193038.GJ391@otoh.org> <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E176472@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E176472@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:04:41 -0000 At 2010-03-09T13:28-0600, Dustin Puryear wrote: > Re: "OpenSolaris and Linux both have load balancers built into them > now." > > What is built into OpenSolaris? http://hub.opensolaris.org/bin/view/Project+vnm/ILB This was integrated in nv 128. http://wikis.sun.com/display/OpenSolarisInfo/Integrated+Load+Balancer > I assume you mean LVS for Linux? Yes. Also, BalanceNG is available for both and definitely worth looking at. http://www.inlab.de/balanceng/ Paul From betsy.schwartz@gmail.com Tue Mar 9 13:05:23 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o29L5Nku063022 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:05:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from betsy.schwartz@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yx0-f194.google.com (mail-yx0-f194.google.com [209.85.210.194]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o29L5KsB008508 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:05:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by yxe32 with SMTP id 32so1279684yxe.24 for ; Tue, 09 Mar 2010 13:05:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:reply-to:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=K03v3KtrKXZKcwUqd6ejwFC6x8kXdoy6yBEnp4L8ZBM=; b=vUnfot59+aIRnz3dS4pLcviFG2E+tCuWdG4LJ5SwQWaY+0SlOTiFpzRH7BPsVDt7XQ N+7jJByeX58SNZoiupv1Q5/M2c0iezeUzRWHO7fynYGsSlYO4MDAHvGncJgvVFikXEue uPb6/36Cgp7tzIFfZ04R6rloS+mm0KUfAQ/+o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=ZoGTn+kid36kwA7rWVWK25O0JV1hcWBhetH83GT29E8dpQkq6cly5M9gV7m4E2eBLL sYoTBscAlR9rQ0/spdul097R36XP+pssFT8N6OJMTMLi/oYCPx6corYwmd2aw049w/vN UvegDvgtAPhQxbj5XPsg8j8uSAuPCAaRPUsnc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.91.98.18 with SMTP id a18mr611048agm.55.1268167308498; Tue, 09 Mar 2010 12:41:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E176478@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E176478@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 15:41:48 -0500 Message-ID: From: Elizabeth Schwartz To: Dustin Puryear Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: betsy.schwartz@gmail.com List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:05:23 -0000 I make certain not to post enough identifying information online to make my resume userful to a recruiter. In the past I've removed address and just used my email address; if I were doing it today I would also omit *company names*. But I've become a huge believer in networking. Also post on linkedin and facebook, if you use them. Let all your friends and connections know what you're looking for. It's good advice for job seekers; I think it's even better advice for employers. From dnb@ccs.neu.edu Tue Mar 9 14:19:43 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o29MJgeQ065327 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 14:19:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dnb@ccs.neu.edu) Received: from zimbra.ccs.neu.edu (zimbra.ccs.neu.edu [129.10.116.59]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o29MJd6j009906 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 14:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.ccs.neu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFAC0F7401B for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 17:19:38 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.ccs.neu.edu Received: from zimbra.ccs.neu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.ccs.neu.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dV0GeZb2Utd5 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 17:19:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from omphaloskepsis.ccs.neu.edu (omphaloskepsis.ccs.neu.edu [129.10.116.223]) by zimbra.ccs.neu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF07CF74004 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 17:19:38 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) From: "David N. Blank-Edelman" In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 17:19:38 -0500 Message-Id: References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> To: SAGE Members X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager; whitelist Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o29MJgeQ065327 Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 22:19:44 -0000 Hi all- I just wanted to thank everyone for their advice on hiring both on and off-list. I definitely picked up some new ideas that I'll be putting into place just as soon as the position is officially posted (hopefully next week). Thanks again. -- dNb P.S. And if you are interested in a UNIX sysadmin job in Boston, be sure to ping me... From dhanks@gmail.com Tue Mar 9 18:19:23 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2A2JNfU071339 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 18:19:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f48.google.com (mail-pw0-f48.google.com [209.85.160.48]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2A2JKFJ013950 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 18:19:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwi6 with SMTP id 6so3913063pwi.35 for ; Tue, 09 Mar 2010 18:19:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=XvmA9Gg+Lztgruly8iE1gPVTScW8K4j+v1dYVhv4neY=; b=Ts6DBV83P5Lmwa9iq7CzOC3dEowBjtMvZWw/Ih8Qqm9Qy8US4gx62fVstpChX12keT KCyYuODN5vA0IjfjW/HytT4maTBsPkTPanULA1UaLvsp5FNHPT8af2tLX17fQlSMcMZg nea7ZFTgHYiFiCjf3oNwvbzfjoC5psRTP3G3g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=jzTnvmvGHYEQmyLHNzlVE+8+QStlj4Xw4pl6xciCurNYKhmE1kFsmtnrnxk7JqmWA8 zNOfehYZaSG+hiKp72JXnhCKNxGdBNM1Ike+izyCfGiF98vxD0+GUEpQH43y76xCNxRT wjmOrTOPbvZ6rp/FUtcwEHOFFbyYn2+4zwxMA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.116.8 with SMTP id t8mr417454wam.198.1268186101090; Tue, 09 Mar 2010 17:55:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 17:55:01 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1003091755l57438f9ej10ee63fcdba81f72@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: Sage Members X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] Physical drawings / CAD? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 02:19:23 -0000 Hi guys, Reaching out to anyone with experience with drawing the "Layer 1" in a network such as MDF/IDF placement - rack placement - cable management - conduits - etc. Is AutoCAD the best option here? -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From kurt.buff@gmail.com Tue Mar 9 20:41:59 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2A4fxYu074591 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:41:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iw0-f177.google.com (mail-iw0-f177.google.com [209.85.223.177]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2A4fuUj015973 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:41:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by iwn7 with SMTP id 7so429335iwn.26 for ; Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:41:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=z3jZzE3tT6B7BhTM7cRVDhiUXuDYDZuaAmmHaIUhIWs=; b=Wc9US6NB8ofJ4i7mX/C+NTUDtSc+rURjNV8OFu2K1wSIWQXryzpiQfPESOsObu2aFc abh624BDupJcwfCZ7wa1t5C8J9sMhluOrfkTgJgS0RWR28i7uzcccDt6+PXPvzwPdmOL c/jco2V+Fn7OEDhJtFp/3067GJIy2bvkJSJEQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=ugwXzjTOG6yt9pFAFb/95wYUtfYf7w39W0Mn4qRmcJdQx49PsP27vAzjS54hWzLu+r GOaPd1d4nly0xl0No5Zab+lTRoSckfvWZ6/I8Rp0qUz59iEcxAYaDGtzIHooqyxrmjPT c2iwclh8KpRr1Zt3tVPnczNLbva6QosDyF9Js= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.170.14 with SMTP id b14mr412251ibz.26.1268196110826; Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:41:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1003091755l57438f9ej10ee63fcdba81f72@mail.gmail.com> References: <82a71f8a1003091755l57438f9ej10ee63fcdba81f72@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:41:50 -0800 Message-ID: From: Kurt Buff To: Sage Members Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=2% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Physical drawings / CAD? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 04:41:59 -0000 On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 17:55, Doug Hanks wrote: > Hi guys, > > Reaching out to anyone with experience with drawing the "Layer 1" in a > network such as MDF/IDF placement - rack placement - cable management - > conduits - etc. > > Is AutoCAD the best option here? Don't know AutoCAD, but I do know that Visio does a stand-up job, and doesn't cost nearly as much. FWIW, Dia might also meet your needs, probably with more effort. From shan@kalwani.com Tue Mar 9 20:23:07 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2A4N7tN074056 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:23:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shan@kalwani.com) Received: from pmail2501.carrierzone.com (pmail2501.carrierzone.com [64.29.147.71]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2A4N36K015670 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:23:06 -0800 (PST) X-POP-User: a_authtest.testsitesc25.carrierzone.com Received: from pmail2501.carrierzone.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmail2501.carrierzone.com (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id o2A2w7LB029856 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 10 Mar 2010 02:58:08 GMT Received: (from webmail@localhost) by pmail2501.carrierzone.com (8.13.6/8.12.2/Submit) id o2A2w7r1029855; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 02:58:07 GMT Received: from static-86-51-114-210.mobily.com.sa (static-86-51-114-210.mobily.com.sa [86.51.114.210]) by webmail.kalwani.com (Webmail 5.0 V.V.I.) with HTTP for ; Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:58:07 -0500 Message-ID: <20100309215807.rigoxr6mezcc0s48@webmail.kalwani.com> From: "=?utf-8?b?U2hhcmFuIEthbHdhbmk=?=" To: Sage Members , "'Doug Hanks'" Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:58:07 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Webmail 5.0 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 05:29:30 -0800 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Physical drawings / CAD? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 04:23:07 -0000 We use Visio for that sort of work. I think AUTOCAD is Ok too, but a everyone seems to like and use Visio ... --Sharan Quoting Doug Hanks : > Hi guys, > > Reaching out to anyone with experience with drawing the "Layer 1" in a > network such as MDF/IDF placement - rack placement - cable management - > conduits - etc. > > Is AutoCAD the best option here? > > -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From jboris@adphila.org Wed Mar 10 06:40:41 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2AEefSY090712 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 06:40:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jboris@adphila.org) Received: from chat2.adphila.org (chat2.adphila.org [64.9.9.80]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2AEec9l004868 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 06:40:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw1.adphila.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chat2.adphila.org (Spam & Virus Firewall) with ESMTP id 6A679346450 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:40:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from gw1.adphila.org ([172.19.2.123]) by chat2.adphila.org with ESMTP id 8BtVfMbOAQ73KvTr for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:40:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from AOC-MTA by gw1.adphila.org with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:40:31 -0500 Message-Id: <4B976904.2594.002B.0@adphila.org> X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 7.0.1 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:40:21 -0500 From: "John BORIS" To: "Kurt Buff" , "Sage Members" References: <82a71f8a1003091755l57438f9ej10ee63fcdba81f72@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Physical drawings / CAD? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:40:41 -0000 I agree with the votes on Visio. It has a lot of templates built in and there are a lot of them on the net. I also found this Free site: http://cacoo.com/ It does the job if you want to play around until you want something more heavy weight. I used it to make a quick diagram of a network layout. Not sure if I got any extra SPAM by signing up for it. John J. Boris, Sr. JEN-A-SyS Administrator Archdiocese of Philadelphia "Remember! That light at the end of the tunnel Just might be the headlight of an oncoming train!" >>> Kurt Buff 3/9/2010 11:41 PM >>> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 17:55, Doug Hanks wrote: > Hi guys, > > Reaching out to anyone with experience with drawing the "Layer 1" in a > network such as MDF/IDF placement - rack placement - cable management - > conduits - etc. > > Is AutoCAD the best option here? Don't know AutoCAD, but I do know that Visio does a stand-up job, and doesn't cost nearly as much. FWIW, Dia might also meet your needs, probably with more effort. _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From jason@jasonantman.com Wed Mar 10 07:05:25 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2AF5OX6091375 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 07:05:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jason@jasonantman.com) Received: from mailmaster.jasonantman.com (web2.jasonantman.com [96.57.180.134]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2AF5L69005478 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 07:05:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.43.136] (nat02-hill-ext.rutgers.edu [204.52.215.2]) by mailmaster.jasonantman.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 579EC932A for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:54:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B97B530.4010506@jasonantman.com> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:05:20 -0500 From: Jason Antman User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070801) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org References: <82a71f8a1003091755l57438f9ej10ee63fcdba81f72@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1003091755l57438f9ej10ee63fcdba81f72@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 OpenPGP: url=http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x34EE2F92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Physical drawings / CAD? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:05:25 -0000 Doug Hanks wrote: > Hi guys, > > Reaching out to anyone with experience with drawing the "Layer 1" in a > network such as MDF/IDF placement - rack placement - cable management - > conduits - etc. > > Is AutoCAD the best option here? > > I'll agree that Visio is very popular for this, but it seems to lack some of the useful features that CAD systems have - I like diagramming racks to scale, and I also find that CAD has more natural options for scaling objects, grouping and moving objects, etc. Also, I don't know what type of shop you work in, but there are free viewers for CAD files for almost every OS out there. Very much not the case with Visio. I've tried Visio (a pain, since I'm on Linux, it means running a VM) but usually am using either Dia or one of the free Linux CAD packages. Of course, at $WORK (university) we have a whole Physical Plant group that does the MDF/IDF and cable path CAD layouts, and the data center group handles rack placement. For stuff within racks, i.e. server placement within a rack, I use a (yet-to-be released) project of mine, RackMan (http://rackman.jasonantman.com/). Still a bit rough, but I'll clean it up a bit if anyone is interested. -Jason From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Wed Mar 10 07:43:17 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2AFhGH2092126 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 07:43:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2AFhDbd006309 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 07:43:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o2AFhKVv025896; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:43:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:43:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <49194.207.61.230.154.1268235800.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1003091755l57438f9ej10ee63fcdba81f72@mail.gmail.com> References: <82a71f8a1003091755l57438f9ej10ee63fcdba81f72@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:43:20 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Doug Hanks" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Physical drawings / CAD? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:43:17 -0000 On Tue, March 9, 2010 20:55, Doug Hanks wrote: > Hi guys, > > Reaching out to anyone with experience with drawing the "Layer 1" in a > network such as MDF/IDF placement - rack placement - cable management - > conduits - etc. > > Is AutoCAD the best option here? A while ago I was at a place where we going to move into a new building, and during the design phase of said building we wanted to look at and modify the architectural drawings. AutoCAD really wasn't an option, partly because of price and partly because we were mostly a Unix shop.* A quick search in the FreeBSD Ports came up with QCAD: http://www.ribbonsoft.com/qcad.html It's multi-platform and probably cheaper than AutoCAD if you want only do simple things. There's a full-featured demo version that's time-limited. * AutoCAD used to run on Unix, however in the '90s it became Windows-only. Same thing happened with FramkeMaker. From philiph@pobox.com Wed Mar 10 08:10:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2AGA8He092780 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:10:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from philiph@pobox.com) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2AGA5PD006869 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:10:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2 [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2492E34B3; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 11:10:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from web7.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.216]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 10 Mar 2010 11:10:04 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=message-id:from:to:cc:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:references:subject:in-reply-to:date; s=smtpout; bh=NbbCLNbov3JR1Hw58sQpcdQ3PKo=; b=NFrfer+fC8HWXf86FWHCEo4/1BPHvBRd9Wuo4jYOABzvIytbiIW2jeaJrSuudWHC9kalNVDYtr0k+FCP5rS6eFd7IR7XBE4LSMpHQ74wpfGlRtou6OcHvGwjOKDEdrcyLohdHWe4AscUpwIqIsnfUZkzipz7rokpjkWhbZGny9U= Received: by web7.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id B0C38118309; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 11:10:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1268237404.16426.1364117919@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: dEZO3b5p2k7NQInlyEQErXL8XGJJahoQQOMbY2MUUXed 1268237404 From: "Philip J. Hollenback" To: "David Magda" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface References: <82a71f8a1003091755l57438f9ej10ee63fcdba81f72@mail.gmail.com> <49194.207.61.230.154.1268235800.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <49194.207.61.230.154.1268235800.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:10:04 -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Cc: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Physical drawings / CAD? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:10:08 -0000 On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:43 -0500, "David Magda" wrote: > On Tue, March 9, 2010 20:55, Doug Hanks wrote: > > Hi guys, > > > > Reaching out to anyone with experience with drawing the "Layer 1" in a > > network such as MDF/IDF placement - rack placement - cable management - > > conduits - etc. > > > > Is AutoCAD the best option here? I've used xfig (www.xfig.org) successfully for this task. An advantage is it can output files in lots of different formats. A disadvantage is it's incredibly idiosyncratic user interface. Still, I think it's a very underrated free tool for drawing diagrams. -- Philip J. Hollenback philiph@pobox.com www.hollenback.net From dpuryear@puryear-it.com Wed Mar 10 08:16:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2AGGW7Y092910 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:16:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpuryear@puryear-it.com) Received: from mail.puryear-it.com (mail.puryear-it.com [207.29.213.194]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2AGGSlQ006998 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:16:31 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:15:43 -0600 Message-ID: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E1764A1@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? Thread-Index: Acq/1yAKV7abBx/VTFa56wJePCBb+wAlbK2w References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> From: "Dustin Puryear" To: "David N. Blank-Edelman" , "SAGE Members" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2AGGW7Y092910 Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:16:32 -0000 BTW, I was *JUST* in Boston last weekend. Beautiful city, well worth the trip for everyone. Plus, they have some really cool restaurants. --- Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of David N. Blank-Edelman Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 4:20 PM To: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? Hi all- I just wanted to thank everyone for their advice on hiring both on and off-list. I definitely picked up some new ideas that I'll be putting into place just as soon as the position is officially posted (hopefully next week). Thanks again. -- dNb P.S. And if you are interested in a UNIX sysadmin job in Boston, be sure to ping me... _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From david@catwhisker.org Wed Mar 10 08:47:52 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2AGlqYJ094029 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:47:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david@catwhisker.org) Received: from bunrab.catwhisker.org (adsl-63-193-123-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.123.122]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2AGlnLw007746 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:47:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from bunrab.catwhisker.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bunrab.catwhisker.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2AGl6wd096111; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:47:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david@bunrab.catwhisker.org) Received: (from david@localhost) by bunrab.catwhisker.org (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id o2AGl5dU096110; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:47:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:47:05 -0800 From: David Wolfskill To: "Philip J. Hollenback" Message-ID: <20100310164705.GG57205@bunrab.catwhisker.org> References: <82a71f8a1003091755l57438f9ej10ee63fcdba81f72@mail.gmail.com> <49194.207.61.230.154.1268235800.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <1268237404.16426.1364117919@webmail.messagingengine.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="btZF9mwWYNBxqm8J" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1268237404.16426.1364117919@webmail.messagingengine.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Physical drawings / CAD? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:47:53 -0000 --btZF9mwWYNBxqm8J Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 08:10:04AM -0800, Philip J. Hollenback wrote: > ... > > > Reaching out to anyone with experience with drawing the "Layer 1" in a > > > network such as MDF/IDF placement - rack placement - cable management= - > > > conduits - etc. > > > > > > Is AutoCAD the best option here? >=20 > I've used xfig (www.xfig.org) successfully for this task. An advantage > is it can output files in lots of different formats. A disadvantage is > it's incredibly idiosyncratic user interface. Still, I think it's a > very underrated free tool for drawing diagrams.=20 I wasn't planning on participating in this thread, as I've not done that particular type of work, and I've not actually been a practicing sysadmin for a couple of years, now. But I was rather hoping that xfig wouldn't be overlooked. I've used it for all kinds of drawing-type things (network diagrams; kitchen remodeling; fingering charts for an alto recorder; annotating graphs; ...) and find it useful. While the interface may be idiosyncratic from some perspectives, that beats "user hostile" (which is how I perceive anything from Microsoft -- granted, that may be a personal problem on my end) in my book. And the native files are in plain ASCII text, highly amenable to revision control, which I find of immense value. And for the last several years, it has also had a "library" facility, so folks can create prototypical diagrams of various objects to retrieve and manipulate -- so if interested folks were to put appropriate objects together in a suitable library for the purpose, and contribute it back upstream, more could benefit from that. Peace, david (rather an open source advocate) --=20 David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org Depriving a girl or boy of an opportunity for education is evil. See http://www.catwhisker.org/~david/publickey.gpg for my public key. --btZF9mwWYNBxqm8J Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkuXzQkACgkQmprOCmdXAD3xCQCffiq2Q9ENoI6GVVWnZlA/BkQP 6kcAn0B7Nk6fH4c9A+nkVIN+WGbhxlvV =Um1Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --btZF9mwWYNBxqm8J-- From cmc@math.hmc.edu Wed Mar 10 12:22:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2AKM8UX099857 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 12:22:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmc@math.hmc.edu) Received: from esme.math.hmc.edu (esme.Math.HMC.Edu [134.173.34.194]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2AKM5G4012124 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 12:22:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from vosill.math.hmc.edu (vosill.math.hmc.edu [134.173.34.88]) by esme.math.hmc.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o2AKLvds030177 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 10 Mar 2010 12:21:57 -0800 Received: from vosill.math.hmc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vosill.math.hmc.edu (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o2AKLvWN005578; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 12:21:57 -0800 From: "Claire M. Connelly" Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Department of Mathematics To: Doug Hanks In-reply-to: <82a71f8a1003091755l57438f9ej10ee63fcdba81f72@mail.gmail.com> References: <82a71f8a1003091755l57438f9ej10ee63fcdba81f72@mail.gmail.com> Comments: In-reply-to message from Doug Hanks dated "Tue, 09 Mar 2010 17:55:01 -0800." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3; GNU Emacs 22.1.1 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 12:21:57 -0800 Message-ID: <5577.1268252517@vosill.math.hmc.edu> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Physical drawings / CAD? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Claire M. Connelly" List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:22:08 -0000 On the Mac side, the OmniGroup's OmniGraffle Pro [0] is a really nice Visio alternative. It can even read Visio files and Visio templates, as well as Dot (GraphViz) files. I use it for rack layouts, wiring diagrams, office layouts, and general stuff such as creating signs or page layouts that I might have done in Illustrator in the past. There are more (and more detailed) server and networking stencils available from Graffletopia [1]. Claire [0] http://www.omnigroup.com/products/omnigraffle [1] http://www.graffletopia.com/ *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Claire M. Connelly cmc@math.hmc.edu System Administrator, Dept. of Mathematics, Harvey Mudd College *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From irilyth@swarpa.net Wed Mar 10 12:47:22 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2AKlMG0000710 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 12:47:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from irilyth@swarpa.net) Received: from smtp.swarpa.net (melfpelt.swarpa.net [70.84.200.162]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2AKlJ5Z012556 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 12:47:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from ecoplant.swarpa.net (ecoplant.swarpa.net [74.52.182.106]) by smtp.swarpa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C582125A76; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by ecoplant.swarpa.net (Postfix, from userid 500) id 470452E9004A; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:27:26 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19352.171.513430.233457@ecoplant.swarpa.net> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:27:23 -0500 To: Ok Pa - We Like To Whomp Ether In-Reply-To: <5577.1268252517@vosill.math.hmc.edu> References: <82a71f8a1003091755l57438f9ej10ee63fcdba81f72@mail.gmail.com> <5577.1268252517@vosill.math.hmc.edu> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under 21.4 (patch 15) "Security Through Obscurity" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smift X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Physical drawings / CAD? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:47:22 -0000 CMC == Claire M Connelly CMC> On the Mac side, the OmniGroup's OmniGraffle Pro [0] is a really nice CMC> Visio alternative. It can even read Visio files and Visio templates, CMC> as well as Dot (GraphViz) files. The Pro version can also *write* VDX files, Visio's XML format. I haven't extensively swapped VDX files back and forth between Visio and OmniGraffle, but it should in theory work at least pretty well. -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From robert@timetraveller.org Wed Mar 10 13:44:29 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2ALiSxg002254 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 13:44:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@timetraveller.org) Received: from procyon.opentrend.net (li144-209.members.linode.com [109.74.197.209]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2ALiPgn013472 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 13:44:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by procyon.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1004) id E2ACECD0C; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:44:16 -0500 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on procyon.opentrend.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 Received: from castor.opentrend.net (unknown [192.168.120.16]) by procyon.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 833D3C867 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:44:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1D9DC4017258C; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:44:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12D5440172589 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:44:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:44:52 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Brockway X-X-Sender: robert@castor.opentrend.net To: "sage-members@sage.org" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <6EA21C10-FFBC-4181-9D0C-6100BC7CA882@ccs.neu.edu> <4B93BD74.2070801@jasonantman.com> <716DDF47-8086-4E34-B505-E41F92B9E638@gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] hiring in the brave new world? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:44:29 -0000 On Sun, 7 Mar 2010, Mark Dennehy wrote: > all up. And it wasn't like they couldn't have asked the question ahead > of time either. Like others I agree with the position that everyone would probably be better off if job adverts listed salary ranges. I have had good success with recruiters in Canada (but not Australia, unfortunately). One of the things they do is filter jobs based on my salary expectations. I tell them what I will accept and they do not send me to jobs under my minimum. One Canadian recruiter even negotiated a higher salary than I had stated to him before I even walked in to the interview. I got the job, at the higher salary[1]. [1] Not my current job. It was years ago. Rob -- Email: robert@timetraveller.org IRC: Solver Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Open Source: The revolution that changed the world without most people noticing From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Wed Mar 10 14:57:28 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2AMvShS004391 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:57:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toq8-srv.bellnexxia.net (bc.sympatico.ca [209.226.175.204]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2AMvO7t014487 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:57:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from toip4.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.87]) by tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100310223550.BWDM11823.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip4.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2010 17:35:50 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAIanl0tMRCRU/2dsb2JhbAAH1xqEeQSDFw Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279534164.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.68.36.84]) by toip4.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 10 Mar 2010 17:58:37 -0500 Message-Id: From: David Magda To: Sage Members Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 17:35:50 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Subject: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:57:29 -0000 So at $WORK we generally don't worry too much with patches on Unix-y system (mostly Solaris and Linux). SSH, FTP, and web-related (Apache, Tomcat) stuff is the most looked after since it is generally accessible from the network. Most host-only stuff isn't fretted about (for better or worse), mostly because of the mind set of "if ain't broke, don't fix it". The Windows folk on the other hand are all over patching things (second Tuesday of every month) because it's a "life or death" necessity for that OS. Mac OS X is a mostly self-supported by users, and generally falls under the rubric of "low risk" (like the Unix stuff). It's been 'suggested' that we start becoming more pro-active though. We use mainly RHEL / CentOS and Solaris. The former has RHN for official support, but can also use local repositories for updates (e.g., "yum update" to fetch from an IT-controlled web server). The latter has various tools, with PCA generally being highly recommended. What I'm to figure out is a management / auditing tool where it would take an inventory of machines and let us know which ones are out of date. Optionally it would then go install updates on command (or we could it ourselves). Ideally we could organized hosts via business group (for SOx reasons), as well as dev, stage, prod, I ran across the Sun^H^H^H Oracle Ops Center [1], and will check out the demos. [1] http://www.oracle.com/us/products/enterprise-manager/opscenter/ We have some budget, so a commercial tool is a definitely a possibility, though I've found most "enterprise" software to be mostly crap. Open-source shouldn't be a problem. Anyone have any suggestions or experience on this? Thanks for any info. From bwhitehd@gmail.com Thu Mar 11 07:56:06 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BFu6B6032323 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:56:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bwhitehd@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.24]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BFu2ar011172 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:56:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 3so55976qwe.59 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:56:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=HI0e/mjSkBJaNZ/E4zM9tGoxIAjgw4z3s2NfMLjxCp4=; b=XcZa8+VZX8nTnQsP7Tejw8NLhMhnF9eWyrNbitSjy2woDG3ItWE6t0cS5YN/cxEN5+ xaj8f2GpBp2Nd7woVdLtlDbU5APHpXZ0aQul4fj25OH7r9zdswbo1MWzgrSiS+WggD99 +Gh795epdSSNbFzFp0cEXqbQkFYoH3cC3/uOs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=i+VAIj9w6a5dn3/BLl7zlTCTeMMhqUWdpHfibE9iOVTFXkmfD2cROnJaoCLdeN5sAT 2baiJm3qEtwUU9uFI65orAu4mCQ0eKaWwfnz6ziYpv4inApATU8oBjZ8SynM74tH0QrU kMxaCdZnojBwS7wrGCzNdztCC5gjLjVqXnhbs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.124.227 with SMTP id v35mr271311vcr.82.1268322660152; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:51:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Brian Whitehead Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:50:40 -0600 Message-ID: To: David Magda X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:56:06 -0000 Have you looked at the RHN Satellite or the open-source version Spacewalk? There is some support for Solaris in these, but I have not tested it and cannot speak to the functionality. What about something like cfengine? or mrepo? There are many commercial products out there, but I've not worked with many of them even in the big environments. [SOAPBOX] Personally, I stay away from anything with the word "Oracle" simply due to the OUTRAGEOUS price tags they place on everything. (They are worse than M$, IMHO) I have to support RAC and other products, due to the fact that some vendors require Oracle DB's (even RHN Satellite). But if I have a choice, I try to use other backends. I'm a big fan of Solaris, but am discouraged that Oracle bought Sun. [SOAPBOX] I recently started a new position and the company has purchased eIQ SecureVue. It doesn't do patch management, but it is for compliance management with extensive auditing and reporting. (SOX, PCI, NERC, etc.) If you have a need for these you might check it out. I haven't gotten far enough in to it yet to speak to it's value. Sorry, I can't be of more help. Regards, Brian On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 4:35 PM, David Magda wrote: > So at $WORK we generally don't worry too much with patches on Unix-y system > (mostly Solaris and Linux). SSH, FTP, and web-related (Apache, Tomcat) stuff > is the most looked after since it is generally accessible from the network. > Most host-only stuff isn't fretted about (for better or worse), mostly > because of the mind set of "if ain't broke, don't fix it". > > The Windows folk on the other hand are all over patching things (second > Tuesday of every month) because it's a "life or death" necessity for that > OS. Mac OS X is a mostly self-supported by users, and generally falls under > the rubric of "low risk" (like the Unix stuff). > > It's been 'suggested' that we start becoming more pro-active though. We use > mainly RHEL / CentOS and Solaris. The former has RHN for official support, > but can also use local repositories for updates (e.g., "yum update" to fetch > from an IT-controlled web server). The latter has various tools, with PCA > generally being highly recommended. > > What I'm to figure out is a management / auditing tool where it would take > an inventory of machines and let us know which ones are out of date. > Optionally it would then go install updates on command (or we could it > ourselves). Ideally we could organized hosts via business group (for SOx > reasons), as well as dev, stage, prod, I ran across the Sun^H^H^H Oracle Ops > Center [1], and will check out the demos. > > [1] http://www.oracle.com/us/products/enterprise-manager/opscenter/ > > We have some budget, so a commercial tool is a definitely a possibility, > though I've found most "enterprise" software to be mostly crap. Open-source > shouldn't be a problem. > > Anyone have any suggestions or experience on this? > > Thanks for any info. > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From brontolinux@gmail.com Thu Mar 11 08:08:26 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BG8QI4032564 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:08:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brontolinux@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ew0-f213.google.com (mail-ew0-f213.google.com [209.85.219.213]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BG8MKo011510 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:08:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by ewy5 with SMTP id 5so73178ewy.30 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:08:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=JAuANXpd+tDg4Q0I9yAbIjHEb0kCDrcn/ZVVuj7df6k=; b=Z7Vf7N93yVTW5gT1FCQpQxudJaBxWYJ8v535bSfLV4jkBGUWupiga4RxxM5NmSqGuy g37M8v0jd0yDmNmEBWZxc6zdHB9KPKNXN0nU2z4IQi3E+eBpOzNA06KR8JIMywaOFxrz OdRFlAfMMIicy2oeWU8ac3KtawYHu2BaZ3en0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=sbN/M9XM1kj9lI/97Kx44jLFFBjO9Czic5sfgjszG7mzaNa8OOj27HbOO+1uXmyl9T mXvugr6gZktyE6ZgBog2Irz5uaGBJc+GLBhaVKJLMQ//lDCqmCuhnzJTEFTNOU8/7jlg 3ke91/7+o0Qk1sA6KfEw7Q7grFt/1RgGaQQ2Q= Received: by 10.213.96.229 with SMTP id i37mr2107480ebn.56.1268323696929; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:08:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.20.18.84] (pat-tdc.opera.com [213.236.208.22]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 14sm101079ewy.14.2010.03.11.08.08.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:08:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:08:46 +0100 From: Marco Marongiu User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=12% Subject: [SAGE] entry level books? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:08:26 -0000 Dear fellows This post is similar, in a way, to the recent "Crash course in Linux admin?", but a bit different in scope. I have been asked by a friend about a book about system and network administration, for beginners. The question, so simple in its formulation, has become a modern version of the Fermat's last theorem to me :) If it was for good books for the experienced, I'd surely say "Essential System Administration", "The Practice of System and Network administration" and "The UNIX administration handbook", but I have no clue for an entry level... Do you have any? Books are preferable, but web sites will be considered :) Thanks in advance!!! Ciao --bronto From tal@whatexit.org Thu Mar 11 08:28:49 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BGSndS033131 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:28:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-qy0-f172.google.com (mail-qy0-f172.google.com [209.85.221.172]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BGSjoM011964 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:28:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk2 with SMTP id 2so210796qyk.1 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:28:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.124.5 with SMTP id s5mr269515vcr.97.1268324920156; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:28:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> References: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 11:28:40 -0500 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91003110828j772d8da1nc35b7a8c20c262bf@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: Marco Marongiu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=8% Cc: SAGE Members Mailing List Subject: Re: [SAGE] entry level books? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:28:49 -0000 I always thought the Linux-specific version of Evi's book was the perfect place for an entry-level sysadmin to get started: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0131480049/tomontime-20 Tom -- http://EverythingSysadmin.com -- http://www.TomOnTime.com Computer and network administrators... Spread the word! LOPSA New Jersey Professional IT Community Conference New Brunswick, NJ, May 7-8, 2010 -- http://picconf.org From stuart@krivis.com Thu Mar 11 08:39:36 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BGda6N033427 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:39:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@krivis.com) Received: from smtp101.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com (smtp101.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.198.200]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id o2BGdXNH012192 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:39:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 43009 invoked from network); 11 Mar 2010 16:32:48 -0000 Received: from [10.130.28.101] (stuart@12.168.82.2 with plain) by smtp101.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Mar 2010 08:32:48 -0800 PST X-Yahoo-SMTP: 477rQYeswBAofE528GFircGv85ePyFLhTF.jHFKC16w4FJKvyhE- X-YMail-OSG: 6wEDTkIVM1niwvK1JHY0clRTRa7lMYccleY64wCLU2L0i_tMijnYi02bQ4JS6v61vcf49AWXAHr8PshpgsTygOt28ADICKhWTEzSrqAzu_CuYwKcXG5rirv3kd04onkdjr9maLURa4WwAE7GrYh9bWJNnLWkjDjr4JdYsI5BYQzE8VcFWLcRVJ4oDUsfecALYZv2Z.mQJXjMn6MingRFDtrViWT2Pm1gWuVEPKfliPbGPsfD2lj50GYe5HJCPCt7DephFaRqI9EP9bjgJMELJZOI5ymSlTqNKb3uFfaKUR_f5I9KwybTlqo- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Message-ID: <4B991B2D.3040301@krivis.com> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 11:32:45 -0500 From: Stuart Krivis User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Mailing List References: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=4% Subject: Re: [SAGE] entry level books? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:39:36 -0000 Marco Marongiu wrote: > Dear fellows > > This post is similar, in a way, to the recent "Crash course in Linux > admin?", but a bit different in scope. > > I have been asked by a friend about a book about system and network > administration, for beginners. > > The question, so simple in its formulation, has become a modern version > of the Fermat's last theorem to me :) > > If it was for good books for the experienced, I'd surely say "Essential > System Administration", "The Practice of System and Network > administration" and "The UNIX administration handbook", but I have no > clue for an entry level... I thought that "The Practice of System and Network Administration" was pretty good for a beginner. There's another one I glanced through while at a bookstore that seemed decent. It was "UNIX System Administration: A Beginner's Guide." I didn't really spend too much time looking at it though, so I can't whole-heartedly recommend it at this point. From royce.williams@gmail.com Thu Mar 11 08:48:41 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BGmfa1033563 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:48:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from royce.williams@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com (mail-gy0-f169.google.com [209.85.160.169]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BGmcU3012392 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:48:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by gya1 with SMTP id 1so114152gya.28 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:48:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=A0/XvQxURbwR9sucLx1tVyELSPvnrUYvyteOvZOSV9o=; b=xKwDMf6/pD16qJEREFCRn+Va9JQCME1Pmm7KtXzGW0+jBwxa5NhQPVhRAT93END1qe dH/9ATGc75+PBsT6a5tLShXf88W2eYGTcEQSLpBb6yukpg12rFB+UmbuONZikf80w1kP ESgHOrrjCuvXY/ttM+fhtKN01TsLapH2T9lzU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=dOQeVAld1UvpEqqrV6z7dOwMnMFunJ+fsGd55tkIkdJodjhR3A2brtHDqlvTuJSw4Q cCONI4jcyUrNBIcUR0acHswbogo+ZPImW7exLynNcsWS/lQh2YO+6LRjdGp7alNDC2zd 5iyxMHEgpfJ+oULFJByMnMlz2mDaOlr2Wj+cE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.18.22 with SMTP id v22mr3548282ybi.262.1268326113087; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:48:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> References: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> From: Royce Williams Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:48:13 -0900 Message-ID: <9dd082311003110848p309df0eck4f90ec70ea210e70@mail.gmail.com> To: Marco Marongiu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Cc: SAGE Members Mailing List Subject: Re: [SAGE] entry level books? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:48:41 -0000 On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 7:08 AM, Marco Marongiu wrote: > I have been asked by a friend about a book about system and network > administration, for beginners. On the systems side, I've found "Think UNIX" by John Lasser to be a great way to jump-start someone's overall approach. Royce From thompson.di@gmail.com Thu Mar 11 08:55:57 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BGtvdD033854 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:55:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thompson.di@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f228.google.com (mail-fx0-f228.google.com [209.85.220.228]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BGtrmW012613 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:55:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm28 with SMTP id 28so257399fxm.19 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:55:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=z63+joFTMb7E/lUADow5dlfJAQtmnLkDSiqGdfrtw+I=; b=I6Pq3EvMcvAnhL+QkzyZI7VO2bd059r/YjgSiPQZGk8+ufvySN6pP/8yBYimv2CZAk pSIHtqISl1aTVB2+YeLaFNYH0YD0JBc5gSbH0ZjqBQlhQM3eMYu8LY3PPGarnJMe75vC JZTGCkb9e+LGHWGAQd8umXwf1aNBNznW/vUCA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=wITegu+iozAmyvIXvUmYHa0nFD3R0tdpsPmyv5t29z/a1bnrB68gKd6oSy5m2YI5Ui +/mi9NcXQfRRU0RPErrzzVnjMDrp9v7KHquWNqRsee6UJMp0eVrvodF9BFZ0Vz9rCJ7V QTFFL0dKENLojjgwVH7IcPFBClOefa4KP9llA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.87.38.1 with SMTP id q1mr5849547fgj.23.1268326547249; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:55:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9dd082311003110848p309df0eck4f90ec70ea210e70@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> <9dd082311003110848p309df0eck4f90ec70ea210e70@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:55:47 -0600 Message-ID: From: Douglas Thompson To: SAGE Members Mailing List X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=8% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] entry level books? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:55:57 -0000 When I've been asked, it seems to be from folks with little to know knowledge of unix, so I recommend the following: - Learning the UNIX Operating System, Fifth Edition - Unix Power Tools, Third Edition - UNIX System Administration Handbook (3rd Edition) On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Royce Williams wrote: > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 7:08 AM, Marco Marongiu > wrote: > > I have been asked by a friend about a book about system and network > > administration, for beginners. > > On the systems side, I've found "Think UNIX" by John Lasser to be a > great way to jump-start someone's overall approach. > > Royce > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- Douglas Thompson --- Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? - Patrick Henry From kurin@delete.org Thu Mar 11 09:19:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BHJWVs034972 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:19:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurin@delete.org) Received: from carbon.delete.org (carbon.delete.org [173.203.205.179]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BHJTeh013077 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:19:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from carbon.delete.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by carbon.delete.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E7BC19C279; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:19:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by carbon.delete.org (Postfix, from userid 1006) id 0246C19D5B4; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:19:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:19:28 -0500 From: Toby Burress To: Marco Marongiu Message-ID: <20100311171928.GK12346@carbon.delete.org> References: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Mailing List Subject: Re: [SAGE] entry level books? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:19:33 -0000 On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 05:08:46PM +0100, Marco Marongiu wrote: > I have been asked by a friend about a book about system and network > administration, for beginners. This is what got me started from pretty much nothing: http://www.freebsd.org/handbook And this is what taught me networking: http://www.amazon.com/TCP-IP-Illustrated-1-Protocols/dp/0201633469 From ari.constancio@gmail.com Thu Mar 11 09:37:55 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BHbtrG035839 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:37:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ari.constancio@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f228.google.com (mail-fx0-f228.google.com [209.85.220.228]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BHbp2a013457 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:37:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm28 with SMTP id 28so303258fxm.19 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:37:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=8jSwW9pIodoZ7DGXISR96kDhRCjJlXlxndzdtN6BbHU=; b=swQitIUWIxmkgd/fGbC5HRXoctK3+/tTE3GbEcA53Oz/3+6Styk8ifWKMva7od/1al b19PLgZcClUdkke22Shy2s4gvJ9pHMGbZDcwMDmPC4loE4yxRiRAK6Qqu6SMq2IOpRfE Z7oYUfDTol7g8QTzkFcSSB76beoHXFSPU00c8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=sN4XSONkhU7nkotyxR1Rl8zW+t6hW51zEP4U+j4YzbMd3lbwrrE7LC8aNxtUIWh1GA l79aHlik05JBatt3xMdCBdU9H9jElcLK2LJCZa27b2fBxoTxxQRpS5Ek8o2qJHjcKWUj KePMkz35KLuj+hSEe/7cpZ3FdTcxcyDCvawQY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.15.89 with SMTP id j25mr3760805faa.97.1268329065607; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:37:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> References: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:37:45 +0000 Message-ID: <66e82c801003110937w3ff30219o94c7d30e52180c4f@mail.gmail.com> From: Ari Constancio To: Marco Marongiu X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=8% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members Mailing List Subject: Re: [SAGE] entry level books? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:37:55 -0000 On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Marco Marongiu wrote: > Dear fellows > > This post is similar, in a way, to the recent "Crash course in Linux > admin?", but a bit different in scope. > > I have been asked by a friend about a book about system and network > administration, for beginners. > > The question, so simple in its formulation, has become a modern version > of the Fermat's last theorem to me :) > > If it was for good books for the experienced, I'd surely say "Essential > System Administration", "The Practice of System and Network > administration" and "The UNIX administration handbook", but I have no > clue for an entry level... > > Do you have any? Books are preferable, but web sites will be considered :) > Hi, I'd also add 'Pro Linux System Administration' (Apress) - a bit thick but very easy to follow. TPOSANA also, of course. Ari Constancio From jxh@jxh.com Thu Mar 11 09:45:35 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BHjZs1036081 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:45:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jxh@jxh.com) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (m1.imap-partners.net [64.13.152.131]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BHjWGD013698 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:45:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from collapse.jxh.com (collapse.jxh.com [75.149.147.131]) by m1.imap-partners.net (MOS 4.1.8-GA) with ESMTP id BNL40557 (AUTH jxh@jxh.com); Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:39:21 -0800 X-Mirapoint-Received-SPF: 75.149.147.131 collapse.jxh.com 5 none X-Mirapoint-Received-SPF: 75.149.147.131 collapse.jxh.com 5 none Message-ID: <4B992AC9.6000901@jxh.com> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 11:39:21 -0600 From: Jim Hickstein User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marco Marongiu References: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Mailing List Subject: Re: [SAGE] entry level books? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:45:36 -0000 > Do you have any? Books are preferable, but web sites will be considered :) You just might be able to find a copy of "UNIX in a Nutshell", first edition. I loaned out my copy and never saw it again. It was about a quarter inch thick, saddle-stitched, unlike all the later O'Reilly books (of which I own more than a few). Yes it's terribly old, but a lot of what was worthwhile is still there in the software, after all these years. From merc248@gmail.com Thu Mar 11 09:51:45 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BHpj7P036285 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:51:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from merc248@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ww0-f41.google.com (mail-ww0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BHpfa8013831 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:51:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15so197586wwe.28 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:51:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=fif7mhKDs7XLA5CPFtrccZwm3l1pkFMDlRR7EBtzirw=; b=sW8PBlZaykPjLaeoivfb8qZgXvO6Nk2vOeWgPMaYKH0J8Fn3/a6Hrj3HotHY38NP9u 4TZkt3ZKz8PZLMFMFEP/SlxmcwM1uMUyVfxcriZQAj1ndo6NW+QmcbNIX89+qVzvP8Pd rvqt+DCoc82irmfLP+zEub+PWSMGMbg6RFaHQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=IiEmvquHtJcb0EFf9iofVHFQlOc4ue18/mzDr2wI1x5eTT/e2+el4NzlwNfsYmgoIN hkh47MxCc4oBAAL0bnttTli/wsTuEZAk2rjuJjXFG5fIfbnHzpadmLDQh2JBJp92Y6I2 VhTkNdCVZ7au6ZjsyDMEbvWDOptn/CY3uY3X4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.176.212 with SMTP id b62mr934001wem.179.1268329895156; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:51:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100311171928.GK12346@carbon.delete.org> References: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> <20100311171928.GK12346@carbon.delete.org> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:51:34 -0800 Message-ID: <2444fd7e1003110951h7f5e5790ib1c367ba4f1087ff@mail.gmail.com> From: "merc248@gmail.com" To: SAGE Members Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=24% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2BHpj7P036285 Subject: Re: [SAGE] entry level books? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:51:46 -0000 I've similarly learned a lot from the FreeBSD handbook as well as the Gentoo handbook: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/ (I would start from the minimal installation CD with nothing prebuilt.) "The Practice of System and Network Administration" was extremely helpful as well. Reading SAGE booklets helped a lot in getting me up to speed with some of the common stuff that's going on in system administration research. Last but not least, reading various general topics books from O'Reilly (Programming Perl, Automating System Administration with Perl) helped me as well. -- ian On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:19 AM, Toby Burress wrote: > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 05:08:46PM +0100, Marco Marongiu wrote: >> I have been asked by a friend about a book about system and network >> administration, for beginners. > > This is what got me started from pretty much nothing: > >        http://www.freebsd.org/handbook > > And this is what taught me networking: > >        http://www.amazon.com/TCP-IP-Illustrated-1-Protocols/dp/0201633469 > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- christian "ian" paredes http://www.redbluemagenta.com From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Thu Mar 11 10:18:58 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BIIwoM037184 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:18:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BIItCK014278 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o2BIIrdj025545 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:18:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B99340D.8080305@bio.umass.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:18:53 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Mailing List References: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> <9dd082311003110848p309df0eck4f90ec70ea210e70@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:18:54 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] entry level books? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:18:59 -0000 Douglas Thompson wrote: > When I've been asked, it seems to be from folks with little to know > knowledge of unix, so I recommend the following: > > - Learning the UNIX Operating System, Fifth Edition > - Unix Power Tools, Third Edition > - UNIX System Administration Handbook (3rd Edition) > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Royce Williams > wrote: > > >> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 7:08 AM, Marco Marongiu >> wrote: >> >>> I have been asked by a friend about a book about system and network >>> administration, for beginners. >>> >> On the systems side, I've found "Think UNIX" by John Lasser to be a >> great way to jump-start someone's overall approach. So many books. So much to learn. Life is too short. Much depends on where this person is starting from. When I learned Unix (Solaris), I was starting from years of experience with Mac networking and systems administration, some Windows/Novell experience, and mainframe programming before that. I also had the luxury of taking several hands on courses in Unix Systems Administration. The second two books mentioned by Douglas, above, were part of my learning toolbox (earlier editions). I would also suggest that /"Unix Backup & Recovery"/ by W. Curtis Preston should be an essential step early on. I actually did read most of that; whereas, for the others, I typically use the index and read pieces as needed. I also got a copy of /"Unix in a Nutshell"/ early on, and I still keep that by my keyboard and periodically reference it for abstruse syntax and examples. One thing that has changed significantly since then is the amount of information online. Early on I bookmarked sunsolve and regularly referenced it. However, the free material has grown exponentially since then. Wikipedia is actually a very excellent source of information on computer system and network related stuff, and it is likely to be more up to date than a book (although some books, like Curtis Preston's, have companion web sites for up to date information). I frequently use wikipedia as a reference to send someone a link in an email when discussing something. For example, the wikipedia entry on RAID is quite good. Learning probably needs to be multi-modal. Do some book reading, search around online and read some stuff, set up a test environment where you can play and try out examples of things you are reading and learning (an old PC running Ubuntu would be perfect, or Ubuntu installed inside a virtual box on a Mac or PC using VMWare, Parallels, VirtualBox, dual booting or something else). Put all of that together, and then move into actual applications that aren't just play. For, example, set up network backups for your home network in a consistent, automatic and reliable fashion. For the Mac folks, here's an interesting, in depth and detailed example: http://www.backupcentral.com/content/view/282/47/ . Because of the way that was done, it is applicable to non Mac environments as well. -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Mar 11 10:37:33 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BIbXCH037768 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:37:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BIbUub014780 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:37:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o2BIbbTR011320; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:37:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:37:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4523.207.61.230.154.1268332657.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <4B99340D.8080305@bio.umass.edu> References: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> <9dd082311003110848p309df0eck4f90ec70ea210e70@mail.gmail.com> <4B99340D.8080305@bio.umass.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:37:37 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Chris Hoogendyk" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Mailing List Subject: Re: [SAGE] entry level books? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:37:34 -0000 On Thu, March 11, 2010 13:18, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: > One thing that has changed significantly since then is the amount of > information online. Early on I bookmarked sunsolve and regularly > referenced it. However, the free material has grown exponentially since O'Reilly has their Safari (?) service where all their books are available online and search for a nominal fee. Though it may be worth having a paper copy of their networking volumes: this way if the network goes down you can use the hard copy to fix it and get the online stuff for other things. :) From kurt.buff@gmail.com Thu Mar 11 10:47:23 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BIlN4S038304 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:47:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iw0-f195.google.com (mail-iw0-f195.google.com [209.85.223.195]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BIlKse015001 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:47:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by iwn33 with SMTP id 33so382381iwn.23 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:47:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=RgnRR4czMFHnWJhrHV1Ma3Rf3asMht3+vAz9vERjBEw=; b=VidXQo4faHaIdPKgwZFXlTyYAvu85A0QuXvicVMNW2ulSszG19QXD8QeFTWonTooRL Qe0VLmb5w9B1sD1xNSV1dvUN5PWprnwCQDzdGWSYYIWm6iRgrOKSj7h9xyhEhXZxAv9j KLqlMcgqcUX1LdgbsEVFsQz7JsjmSny5aXpPo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Y3sGGzTvTueJlp5gins6jLZWYkVef/xPCfpGy1hLBD5iq38EEnMwXCqOc1dmGnrWeT lP1968zn1jvILQObyKbtn7J1qO+MCelTS7pdZP5MSKoMfoOBOqvtKqYn4LUrYKfCJoqy 05x7XX7o7iPcSYg7AOIP8NLC6m5zexr1cK/Sw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.149.201 with SMTP id u9mr558469ibv.1.1268333234783; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:47:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:47:14 -0800 Message-ID: From: Kurt Buff To: Sage Members Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=4% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:47:23 -0000 On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 14:35, David Magda wrote: > So at $WORK we generally don't worry too much with patches on Unix-y system > (mostly Solaris and Linux). SSH, FTP, and web-related (Apache, Tomcat) stuff > is the most looked after since it is generally accessible from the network. > Most host-only stuff isn't fretted about (for better or worse), mostly > because of the mind set of "if ain't broke, don't fix it". > > The Windows folk on the other hand are all over patching things (second > Tuesday of every month) because it's a "life or death" necessity for that > OS. Mac OS X is a mostly self-supported by users, and generally falls under > the rubric of "low risk" (like the Unix stuff). > > It's been 'suggested' that we start becoming more pro-active though. We use > mainly RHEL / CentOS and Solaris. The former has RHN for official support, > but can also use local repositories for updates (e.g., "yum update" to fetch > from an IT-controlled web server). The latter has various tools, with PCA > generally being highly recommended. > > What I'm to figure out is a management / auditing tool where it would take > an inventory of machines and let us know which ones are out of date. > Optionally it would then go install updates on command (or we could it > ourselves). Ideally we could organized hosts via business group (for SOx > reasons), as well as dev, stage, prod, I ran across the Sun^H^H^H Oracle Ops > Center [1], and will check out the demos. > > [1] http://www.oracle.com/us/products/enterprise-manager/opscenter/ > > We have some budget, so a commercial tool is a definitely a possibility, > though I've found most "enterprise" software to be mostly crap. Open-source > shouldn't be a problem. > > Anyone have any suggestions or experience on this? > > Thanks for any info. FreeBSD has portaudit, and although it's only for ports/packages that are added by the operator, not for the OS, I find it indispensable. FreeBSD also has freebsd-update, which is incredibly useful, but limited to updating the "released" versions of FreeBSD - that is, those released in the formal release schedule, which does include RCs. HTH, Kurt From allan@physics.umn.edu Thu Mar 11 12:24:48 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BKOmMK041186 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:24:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allan@physics.umn.edu) Received: from florence.spa.umn.edu (florence.spa.umn.edu [128.101.220.38]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BKOj3M016798 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from peevish.spa.umn.edu ([128.101.220.230]) by florence.spa.umn.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NpoVA-0009Q0-9T for sage-members@sage.org; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:57:00 -0600 Received: from peevish.spa.umn.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by peevish.spa.umn.edu (8.13.8/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o2BJv01C019928 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:57:00 -0600 Received: (from allan@localhost) by peevish.spa.umn.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id o2BJv0Uh019927 for sage-members@sage.org; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:57:00 -0600 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:57:00 -0600 From: Graham Allan To: sage-members@sage.org Message-ID: <20100311195659.GD4380@physics.umn.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:24:48 -0000 On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 4:35 PM, David Magda wrote: > What I'm to figure out is a management / auditing tool where it would take > an inventory of machines and let us know which ones are out of date. > Optionally it would then go install updates on command (or we could it > ourselves). Ideally we could organized hosts via business group (for SOx > reasons), as well as dev, stage, prod, I ran across the Sun^H^H^H Oracle Ops > Center [1], and will check out the demos. > > [1] http://www.oracle.com/us/products/enterprise-manager/opscenter/ > > We have some budget, so a commercial tool is a definitely a possibility, > though I've found most "enterprise" software to be mostly crap. Open-source > shouldn't be a problem. I've just seen mention of a tool called pakiti (http://pakiti.sourceforge.net/) which will give you a patch status report for linux clients (certainly Redhat-based, but possibly others too). In the commercial tool space, we use bigfix (www.bigfix.com) for Windows/Mac patch status and remediation, and it works fairly well. In principle it can also support RHEL, Solaris and some other unix distros, but we prefer to roll our own for these so I can't comment on how well it works there. Graham -- From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Mar 11 12:41:25 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BKfPSY041639 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:41:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BKfHNA017478 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:41:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o2BKfTWj022086; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:41:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:41:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <22847.207.61.230.154.1268340089.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:41:29 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Kurt Buff" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:41:25 -0000 On Thu, March 11, 2010 13:47, Kurt Buff wrote: > FreeBSD has portaudit, and although it's only for ports/packages that > are added by the operator, not for the OS, I find it indispensable. > > FreeBSD also has freebsd-update, which is incredibly useful, but > limited to updating the "released" versions of FreeBSD - that is, > those released in the formal release schedule, which does include RCs. While I have worked and am familiar with the various BSDs (cf. my resume), that (unfortunately) doesn't help me at $WORK since we use only Linux and Solaris. :) From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Mar 11 12:54:17 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BKsH6E042155 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:54:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BKs9cX017781 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o2BKsBJh023117; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:54:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:54:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <20100311195659.GD4380@physics.umn.edu> References: <20100311195659.GD4380@physics.umn.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:54:12 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Graham Allan" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:54:17 -0000 On Thu, March 11, 2010 14:57, Graham Allan wrote: > I've just seen mention of a tool called pakiti > (http://pakiti.sourceforge.net/) which will give you a patch status > report for linux clients (certainly Redhat-based, but possibly others > too). I believe that Solaris is moving towards a more "package-like" system in versions 11 and above with the IPS / pkg(5) system, so that may be workable in the future. That doesn't help with Solaris 10 and earlier though. > In the commercial tool space, we use bigfix (www.bigfix.com) for > Windows/Mac patch status and remediation, and it works fairly well. In > principle it can also support RHEL, Solaris and some other unix distros, > but we prefer to roll our own for these so I can't comment on how well > it works there. Thanks. I got a private reply from someone mentioning that Bfg2 supposedly can handle this as well. In general it doesn't seem like many people on the list are using tools for this. This may be because tracking / auditing Unix patches isn't a big deal, or there simply aren't that many products out there. Don't you people care about Unix security ??!?!!11! ;) From joel.merrick@gmail.com Thu Mar 11 13:36:48 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BLamQE043295 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:36:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joel.merrick@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f218.google.com (mail-fx0-f218.google.com [209.85.220.218]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BLai26018644 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:36:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm10 with SMTP id 10so31306fxm.30 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:36:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=zv9kUKRXOYLIexuywVQhzn6QZA5CAUjD7LfeUcmm7tc=; b=WSbItbloRfeFhFcHfYp/BTIkXLXn3wBQstlKs3elNwATWRgwqDSfJXCWCJElIMl8yt yfY34ppwzRySK6mPiazo9v3y14fFnmBqWoEFMKIxTRLcp6txukyNR1x4cvyr1SxOwgqt RVdLAj1ndo2kiFD037qttrM1Q89pymM5XjA/A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=iFtmsSZtbB02BeTG9+SNyOiZ/WhVpKzygAIUZgdZpuHa9UCek7017sxsZtSaKzvGLB di2lJIzgr/VT+U7BvxQvpIm3rb6IyfEKcKvJKZzKx0I9LkUoS6ZN2+PtgxzJ6BJnBA9w 3aYw5J8TYJmmOd3QkP6pnOOYu5wzrg4XGzLgM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.154.204 with SMTP id f12mr380873hbc.153.1268343098187; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:31:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> References: <20100311195659.GD4380@physics.umn.edu> <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:31:38 +0000 Message-ID: <543a57a81003111331o717e210cm69409e98fea52c94@mail.gmail.com> From: Joel Merrick To: David Magda Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:36:48 -0000 On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 8:54 PM, David Magda wrote: > > In general it doesn't seem like many people on the list are using tools > for this. This may be because tracking / auditing Unix patches isn't a big > deal, or there simply aren't that many products out there. > > Don't you people care about Unix security ??!?!!11! ;) > Oh, they do... I think you'll find it's mainly a mix of manual, semi-automatic (pinning important packages and auto-upgrading the rest) and fully automatic updates. Using configuration management tools (Puppet,Chef, BCFG2, Cfengine etc..!) or notification tools (apticron) and custom scripts help with this. Because there's so many ways to achieve this and implementations differ, I don't think you'll find one common tool to rule them all. -- $ echo "kpfmAdpoofdufevq/dp/vl" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1)-1)/ge' From lyndon@yyc.orthanc.ca Thu Mar 11 13:49:37 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BLna9Z043520 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:49:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lyndon@yyc.orthanc.ca) Received: from orthanc.ca (orthanc.ca [208.86.224.138]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BLnXKr019195 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:49:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from orthanc.ca (localhost4 [127.0.0.1]) by orthanc.ca (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o2BLJht2020652 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:19:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lyndon@yyc.orthanc.ca) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by orthanc.ca (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with UUCP id o2BLJhel020651; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:19:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lyndon@yyc.orthanc.ca) Received: from yyc.orthanc.ca (frodo.yyc.orthanc.ca [172.16.0.3]) by legolas.yyc.orthanc.ca (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o2BLJeFm083713; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:19:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lyndon@yyc.orthanc.ca) Message-ID: <2be1c61996c475be184a8c148c0572d0@yyc.orthanc.ca> To: dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca From: "Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX)" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:19:40 -0700 In-Reply-To: <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:49:37 -0000 > Don't you people care about Unix security ??!?!!11! ;) It's a volume issue. The monthly count of patches for a UNIX box is less than a tenth of that for a Windows host, and Windows boxes easily outnumber UNIX machines by 10:1 in most organizations. Therefore it's reasonably easy to keep the UNIX boxes patched by hand, whereas it's impossible to maintain the Windows machines without automation. --lyndon From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Thu Mar 11 13:50:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BLoWcq043555 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:50:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BLoTdr019219 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:50:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o2BLoRYI016644 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:50:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B9965A3.5090400@bio.umass.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:50:27 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org References: <20100311195659.GD4380@physics.umn.edu> <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:50:28 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:50:33 -0000 David Magda wrote: > Don't you people care about Unix security ??!?!!11! ;) > > Whenever I build new systems, I use the Security Guide from: http://www.nsa.gov/ia/guidance/security_configuration_guides/index.shtml which (I'm on Solaris) had collaboration from both Sun and NSA. I have the pdf's on my desktop system for ready reference and the link noted on my blog so I don't have to worry about remembering where to find it again. Nevertheless, it is still good to regularly catch the recommended and security patch bundles. It's also useful to watch the SANS NewsBites and CERT advisories. Occasionally, those will indicate things that need to be dealt with -- for example, the bind issues last year. And read log files. authlogs, messages, etc. I use a perl script ignore.pl, which I can customize to ignore stuff I don't care about. Then the odd stuff pops out. Tighten security as necessary based on this. All the automated tools aren't necessarily going to catch everything. I don't think I've had a breach since the old Solaris 7 days. (Knock on wood, etc.) But I'm constantly seeing or hearing about Windows breaches. If I were administering Windows, I would patch religiously. And I would surround myself with no end of firewalls etc. running on Unix/Linux systems. But, then, I wouldn't be administering Windows. ;-) -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From dbronder@fire.its.uiowa.edu Thu Mar 11 14:02:09 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BM29bj043906 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:02:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dbronder@fire.its.uiowa.edu) Received: from fire.its.uiowa.edu (fire.its.uiowa.edu [128.255.56.219]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BM25ee019433 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:02:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from fire.its.uiowa.edu (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by fire.its.uiowa.edu (8.13.6/8.14.1/accept-2.3) with ESMTP id o2BLTJn6027860; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:29:19 -0600 Received: (from dbronder@localhost) by fire.its.uiowa.edu (8.13.6/8.14.1/its-submit-1.2) id o2BLTJAp068542; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:29:19 -0600 Message-Id: <201003112129.o2BLTJAp068542@fire.its.uiowa.edu> To: dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca (David Magda) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:29:19 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> from "David Magda" at Mar 11, 2010 03:54:12 PM From: David Bronder Organization: ITS-SPA, University of Iowa X-Bounce-Check: 9fd2f3b75ff6c1bfda557385db063eda X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:02:09 -0000 David Magda wrote: > > In general it doesn't seem like many people on the list are using tools > for this. This may be because tracking / auditing Unix patches isn't a big > deal, or there simply aren't that many products out there. > > Don't you people care about Unix security ??!?!!11! ;) There certainly are tools for this, including RHN, which you mentioned in your original message (as did another respondent). I think that one issue in the Unix space is that nearly every Unix or Unix-like variant uses their own packaging and patching methods, which makes a universal tool more... interesting. But not impossible. However, you're more likely to find what you want if you are willing to use separate tools for separate platforms. I looked into RHN again yesterday because I recalled it having some support for Solaris, too, as the other respondent mentioned, though I had trouble finding info about current support, so it may just be some level of legacy support (I think Red Hat's strategy here is encouraging customers to replace Solaris with RHEL). For my site, we do use RHN Satellite for our RHEL systems, and for our AIX systems it's mostly by hand (with some locally-written utilites to make it a little easier). Another commercial product I haven't seen mentioned is PatchLink (now apparently called Lumension). Our Windows group uses that for all of their Windows server patch management. I've seen some mention of them supporting Linux and Solaris as well, though in a quick glance at their (buzzword-laden) website I didn't spot a clear statement of platform support... Good luck finding a tool (or tools) that do what you need. -- Hello World. David Bronder - Systems Admin Segmentation Fault ITS-SPA, Univ. of Iowa Core dumped, disk trashed, quota filled, soda warm. david-bronder@uiowa.edu From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Mar 11 14:22:10 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BMMAvQ044555 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:22:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toq11-srv.bellnexxia.net (toq11.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.118]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BMM6vE019755 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from toip4.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.87]) by tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100311221916.BEY1786.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip4.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:19:16 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAAb5mEtMQR9u/2dsb2JhbAAH2ESEewSDF4sp Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279336302.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.65.31.110]) by toip4.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 11 Mar 2010 17:42:04 -0500 Message-Id: From: David Magda To: Chris Hoogendyk In-Reply-To: <4B9965A3.5090400@bio.umass.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:19:15 -0500 References: <20100311195659.GD4380@physics.umn.edu> <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4B9965A3.5090400@bio.umass.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:22:11 -0000 On Mar 11, 2010, at 16:50, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: > Whenever I build new systems, I use the Security Guide from: > > http://www.nsa.gov/ia/guidance/security_configuration_guides/index.shtml > > which (I'm on Solaris) had collaboration from both Sun and NSA. I > have the pdf's on my desktop system for ready reference and the link > noted on my blog so I don't have to worry about remembering where to > find it again. I believe Sun/Solaris JASS has a lot of the items in the NSA's guide in its standard checklist, so running it in full- (or even mostly-) lock-down mode will take care of things. > Nevertheless, it is still good to regularly catch the recommended > and security patch bundles. Yes, and that's my primary inquiry: a system for keeping track of patches on systems. At the very least reporting, and ideally in managing. From mason@mac.com Thu Mar 11 14:31:49 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BMVmQm044711 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:31:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mason@mac.com) Received: from asmtpout029.mac.com (asmtpout029.mac.com [17.148.16.104]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BMVjCQ019916 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:31:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Received: from [192.168.1.12] (pool-138-88-28-54.res.east.verizon.net [138.88.28.54]) by asmtp029.mac.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-8.01 (built Dec 16 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPSA id <0KZ5007M72KKVT20@asmtp029.mac.com> for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:31:34 -0800 (PST) X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1003110209 From: Mason Turner In-reply-to: <4523.207.61.230.154.1268332657.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:31:32 -0500 Message-id: <53FA512D-50D7-4B41-9CA2-BF3A0261324E@mac.com> References: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> <9dd082311003110848p309df0eck4f90ec70ea210e70@mail.gmail.com> <4B99340D.8080305@bio.umass.edu> <4523.207.61.230.154.1268332657.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> To: SAGE Members Mailing List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=15% Subject: Re: [SAGE] entry level books? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:31:49 -0000 On Mar 11, 2010, at 1:37 PM, David Magda wrote: > On Thu, March 11, 2010 13:18, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: > >> One thing that has changed significantly since then is the amount of >> information online. Early on I bookmarked sunsolve and regularly >> referenced it. However, the free material has grown exponentially since > > O'Reilly has their Safari (?) service where all their books are available > online and search for a nominal fee. Check your library, as well. In fact, I can access Safari through my library website. I don't get to setup bookmarks, but it's great free resource. From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Mar 11 14:38:19 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BMcJnx044869 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:38:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toq5-srv.bellnexxia.net (toq5.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.27]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BMcF10020021 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from toip5.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.88]) by tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100311222851.UUOB22975.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip5.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:28:51 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAI/4mEtMQR9u/2dsb2JhbAAH2EKEewSDF4sp Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279336302.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.65.31.110]) by toip5.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 11 Mar 2010 17:27:59 -0500 Message-Id: <5A6A19E1-C169-458D-9A39-42DD404B3485@ee.ryerson.ca> From: David Magda To: David Bronder In-Reply-To: <201003112129.o2BLTJAp068542@fire.its.uiowa.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:28:49 -0500 References: <201003112129.o2BLTJAp068542@fire.its.uiowa.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:38:20 -0000 On Mar 11, 2010, at 16:29, David Bronder wrote: > Another commercial product I haven't seen mentioned is PatchLink (now > apparently called Lumension). Our Windows group uses that for all of > their Windows server patch management. I've seen some mention of them > supporting Linux and Solaris as well, though in a quick glance at > their > (buzzword-laden) website I didn't spot a clear statement of platform > support... Their agent appears to run on multiple flavours of Unix (under "Requirements"): http://www.lumension.com/vulnerability-management/patch-management-software.aspx Though the actual server component needs IIS, .Net, and SQL Server. Sigh. At least they mention Firefox as a supported browser. Microsoft is entering the enterprise management field with more and more products (anti-virus, WSUS, SCCM), and I know the Windows folks at $WORK are moving a bunch of stuff over to MS. These third-party companies may be squeezed out eventually. From merc248@gmail.com Thu Mar 11 14:40:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BMeiZ9044972 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:40:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from merc248@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wy0-f176.google.com (mail-wy0-f176.google.com [74.125.82.176]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BMeeMl020095 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:40:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by wyi11 with SMTP id 11so273528wyi.35 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:40:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=W8DBsKqOoVJPjDarEHQMvQNIKOlbB0ycuezlUh7Q46w=; b=HZ7nMNxWq92UNwEEFg195wk8MaTgg3EoabP5DKrqgeCs7mZJNIvrM4c93szu4pB5Wc SK3GBYSy5sHogt5Y+B1lG1KxckfO/4+HdnKgs/7Q8NdiSVE8iOYW5VnMA+141RSqGkK8 SlSZ5JfebvKjBSXNDsl7GSLg6Ix6ujFUCMtjg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=K8GJv797UfncU8DLaNh8Jk3qnHUEMxKYJSfv1ke2EENHZFvDoBp9D0ANyW7xAtNbt1 MSEDoTIEm/oZ1cBgmsz1Y4a00qvqSsCEpCf5a3OXoYvyysK6VElRlvWm9wGFmr2zOEWg Wa3A8WzRmuKVLQIL9dtdS2MLgYOZcHbG1P5MQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.90.4 with SMTP id d4mr93139wef.135.1268346916490; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:35:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20100311195659.GD4380@physics.umn.edu> <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4B9965A3.5090400@bio.umass.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:35:16 -0800 Message-ID: <2444fd7e1003111435v248a2952wc022e7355b8050d4@mail.gmail.com> From: "merc248@gmail.com" To: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2BMeiZ9044972 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:40:44 -0000 For Windows clients and servers, I've used WSUS on a Windows 2003 box (however, it's really meant to hook into an Active Directory domain; if you don't have an AD domain, you'd have to push out registry changes to all the clients, including a setting that says which server is running WSUS.) I haven't used it extensively however, so I'm not sure if it'll fit with what you're looking for if you're trying to manage a bunch of Windows patches. -- ian On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:19 PM, David Magda wrote: > > On Mar 11, 2010, at 16:50, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: > >> Whenever I build new systems, I use the Security Guide from: >> >>   http://www.nsa.gov/ia/guidance/security_configuration_guides/index.shtml >> >> which (I'm on Solaris) had collaboration from both Sun and NSA. I have the >> pdf's on my desktop system for ready reference and the link noted on my blog >> so I don't have to worry about remembering where to find it again. > > I believe Sun/Solaris JASS has a lot of the items in the NSA's guide in its > standard checklist, so running it in full- (or even mostly-) lock-down mode > will take care of things. > >> Nevertheless, it is still good to regularly catch the recommended and >> security patch bundles. > > Yes, and that's my primary inquiry: a system for keeping track of patches on > systems. At the very least reporting, and ideally in managing. > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- christian "ian" paredes http://www.redbluemagenta.com From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Mar 11 15:58:27 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2BNwQ4f046999 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:58:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toq4-srv.bellnexxia.net (toq4.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.24]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2BNwND5021288 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:58:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from toip4.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.87]) by tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100311234447.BRSQ1786.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip4.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:44:47 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAOINmUtMQR9u/2dsb2JhbAAH2BqEewSDFw Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279336302.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.65.31.110]) by toip4.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 11 Mar 2010 19:07:36 -0500 Message-Id: <291D4495-0212-4FEE-900C-1E5427F89C6C@ee.ryerson.ca> From: David Magda To: merc248@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <2444fd7e1003111435v248a2952wc022e7355b8050d4@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:44:47 -0500 References: <20100311195659.GD4380@physics.umn.edu> <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4B9965A3.5090400@bio.umass.edu> <2444fd7e1003111435v248a2952wc022e7355b8050d4@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=23% Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:58:28 -0000 On Mar 11, 2010, at 17:35, merc248@gmail.com wrote: > For Windows clients and servers, I've used WSUS on a Windows 2003 > box [...] Thankfully I currently only need to worry about Unix-y stuff. Our Windows guys are pretty good, and I'm happy to let them deal with this stuff. :) From jjasen@realityfailure.org Thu Mar 11 17:09:23 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2C19MD7049317 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:09:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jjasen@realityfailure.org) Received: from mail.realitycontrol.org (mail.realitycontrol.org [204.9.136.39]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2C19JIx022422 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:09:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.213] (c-24-35-82-177.customer.broadstripe.net [24.35.82.177]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.realitycontrol.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FD5D33A0063; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:48:15 -0500 (EST) X-DomainKeys: Sendmail DomainKeys Filter v1.0.2 mail.realitycontrol.org 4FD5D33A0063 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=default; d=realityfailure.org; c=simple; q=dns; b=Rm6Y0Bl6qdQwYktPDZkwyOaZ1pyXpc4Nz3qaVJ2VlTjAWEBrpUz8PTAaSdUPCaJeE 7JDRfDYoW+2/qv1J7jIIj8I70YjlRUMM2sIabaEv07t2GxjBNwQloQ8JfJFOBU/LhLK AYNDIxFpVMBNbxDQ1G2vDBWBLwtxhTzvIM2KFLw= X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.3 mail.realitycontrol.org 4FD5D33A0063 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=realityfailure.org; s=default; t=1268354895; bh=w896dhb+ug8b91r4AVmMMBfM6no=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References: In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=WGPFrJDoSCDiG5yB9HCuv3Mmwlb8QGjc7juxI3mdK1ef/3MzfPY8iRPkLKvu8JW9I rM1UfqQ9+/h0QkluMO7wz4wMA6UKBvqG+N9az1UQ2wcBnUyPIQUa4momJiGW4o3PH6 Lyh+ragUA6mEiKM69bxJEjmN3TuaWONcKxlzYsw4= Message-ID: <4B998F47.7020601@realityfailure.org> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:48:07 -0500 From: John Jasen User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Bronder References: <201003112129.o2BLTJAp068542@fire.its.uiowa.edu> In-Reply-To: <201003112129.o2BLTJAp068542@fire.its.uiowa.edu> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on hackjob1.realitycontrol.org X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 01:09:23 -0000 David Bronder wrote: > Another commercial product I haven't seen mentioned is PatchLink (now > apparently called Lumension). Our Windows group uses that for all of > their Windows server patch management. I've seen some mention of them > supporting Linux and Solaris as well, though in a quick glance at their > (buzzword-laden) website I didn't spot a clear statement of platform > support... I've run Patchlink (now Lumension Patch and Remediation) for over four years, through three different server versions, and I can in no way, shape. or form recommend it for deployment. I'm watching this conversation with extreme interest, otherwise. -- -- John E. Jasen (jjasen@realityfailure.org) -- "Deserve Victory." -- Terry Goodkind, Naked Empire From matt@msg.ucsf.edu Thu Mar 11 20:01:15 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2C41Fla053663 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:01:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@msg.ucsf.edu) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.147]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2C41CnR025463 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:01:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so251315qwf.22 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:01:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.13.68 with SMTP id b4mr2742971qaa.352.1268366471956; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:01:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:01:11 -0800 Message-ID: <51616f221003112001l734ddba0la4e344ab6a2ec739@mail.gmail.com> From: Matt Harrington To: sage-members@usenix.org X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] Seeking beta testers for a new trouble ticket app X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:01:16 -0000 I once counted 55 trouble ticket systems, but I thought I'd take a stab at writing my own. It's hosted, so there's nothing to install or manage. A new helpdesk can be created in under a minute. If you're interested in being a beta tester, please let me know. I'm especially interested in hearing feedback about what features to add. Matt From allbery@ece.cmu.edu Thu Mar 11 20:02:03 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2C423AF053672 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:02:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu (BACHE.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.129.23]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2C4208J025479 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:02:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mress.kf8nh.com (static-72-77-17-40.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net [72.77.17.40]) (Authenticated sender: allbery@ECE.CMU.EDU) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 028D2A9; Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:01:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <43D74CDA-020B-40FF-ABEF-FF238B3CE903@ece.cmu.edu> From: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" To: "David Magda" In-Reply-To: <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-52-149011530" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:01:43 -0500 References: <20100311195659.GD4380@physics.umn.edu> <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.0 (v56) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:02:03 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-52-149011530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 11, 2010, at 15:54 , David Magda wrote: > On Thu, March 11, 2010 14:57, Graham Allan wrote: >> I've just seen mention of a tool called pakiti >> (http://pakiti.sourceforge.net/) which will give you a patch status >> report for linux clients (certainly Redhat-based, but possibly others >> too). > > I believe that Solaris is moving towards a more "package-like" > system in > versions 11 and above with the IPS / pkg(5) system, so that may be > workable in the future. That doesn't help with Solaris 10 and earlier > though. The canonical solution for Solaris is Patch Check Advanced, http://www.par.univie.ac.at/solaris/pca/ -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH --Apple-Mail-52-149011530 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkuZvLIACgkQIn7hlCsL25U5VACg0D8UPPkuwgOj8mecpijM1Plp yd0AnjZpcGC8bx4S88hyzGYxcFe6iNM9 =XSrA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-52-149011530-- From g.lams@itcilo.org Fri Mar 12 00:25:26 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2C8PQTh060403 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:25:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from g.lams@itcilo.org) Received: from mailx1.itcilo.org ([82.112.222.231]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2C8PMVg007239 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:25:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailx1.itcilo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DCC8F1B30 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:19:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from mailx1.itcilo.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (barracuda.itcilo.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26592-05 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:19:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from email.itcilo.org (itc-domino.itc-ilo.org [172.20.13.25]) by mailx1.itcilo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1707EF1A64 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:19:44 +0100 (CET) Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: In-Reply-To: <5A6A19E1-C169-458D-9A39-42DD404B3485@ee.ryerson.ca> References: <201003112129.o2BLTJAp068542@fire.its.uiowa.edu>, <5A6A19E1-C169-458D-9A39-42DD404B3485@ee.ryerson.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ga=EBl_Lams?= To: sage-members@sage.org Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:19:57 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Lotus Domino Web Server Release 8.5.1 September 28, 2009 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by HTTP Server on ITC-DOMINO/ITCILO/IT(Release 8.5.1|September 28, 2009) at 12/03/2010 09.19.57, Serialize complete at 12/03/2010 09.19.58, Itemize by HTTP Server on ITC-DOMINO/ITCILO/IT(Release 8.5.1|September 28, 2009) at 12/03/2010 09.19.58, Serialize by Router on ITC-DOMINO/ITCILO/IT(Release 8.5.1|September 28, 2009) at 12/03/2010 09.19.58 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at itcilo.org X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2C8PQTh060403 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:25:27 -0000 Hi all, I've seen articles recently on monitoring patches updates with Nagios for Ubuntu/Debian and AIX systems. Not sure for Solaris. For Windows, if you have a AD domain, WSUS is probably the way to go even if I seem to remember on nagiosexchange a script which does a check for Windows updates and reports the results back to the Nagios server. The nagios stuff is something I will probably check in the future as we already use nagios for host/switch/service monitoring even if, for the time being, having only around 80 boxes to manage, WSUS for the windows servers and a crontab script on my linux boxes which automatically updates non critical stuff (I'm on the security lists of the distribution we use at $WORK, therefore being informed when a security update for kernel, apache, .... is released) is enough for me. Regards, Gaël From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Fri Mar 12 04:54:25 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2CCsPe2067254 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:54:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toq3-srv.bellnexxia.net (toq3-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.16]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2CCsMse013729 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from toip3.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.86]) by tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100312121751.UAPO2554.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip3.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 07:17:51 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAH68mUtMQR/A/2dsb2JhbAAH1hOEewSDF4sq Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279336384.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.65.31.192]) by toip3.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 12 Mar 2010 07:05:54 -0500 Message-Id: <19D09D9E-A9FF-4147-8C9C-7CD2F9E050FB@ee.ryerson.ca> From: David Magda To: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" In-Reply-To: <43D74CDA-020B-40FF-ABEF-FF238B3CE903@ece.cmu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 07:17:51 -0500 References: <20100311195659.GD4380@physics.umn.edu> <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43D74CDA-020B-40FF-ABEF-FF238B3CE903@ece.cmu.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:54:26 -0000 On Mar 11, 2010, at 23:01, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: > The canonical solution for Solaris is Patch Check Advanced, http://www.par.univie.ac.at/solaris/pca/ For patch installation, yes. I'm looking for an "auditing" system that can keep track of many machines and see which one are out-of-date. Not many options from the looks of it. From allbery@ece.cmu.edu Fri Mar 12 08:36:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2CGaWSW072596 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:36:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu (BACHE.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.129.23]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2CGaTiL020687 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:36:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mress.kf8nh.com (static-72-77-17-40.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net [72.77.17.40]) (Authenticated sender: allbery@ECE.CMU.EDU) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00A0BBE; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:36:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: From: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" To: David Magda In-Reply-To: <19D09D9E-A9FF-4147-8C9C-7CD2F9E050FB@ee.ryerson.ca> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-133-194283740" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:36:16 -0500 References: <20100311195659.GD4380@physics.umn.edu> <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43D74CDA-020B-40FF-ABEF-FF238B3CE903@ece.cmu.edu> <19D09D9E-A9FF-4147-8C9C-7CD2F9E050FB@ee.ryerson.ca> X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.0 (v56) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:36:33 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-133-194283740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 12, 2010, at 07:17 , David Magda wrote: > On Mar 11, 2010, at 23:01, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: >> The canonical solution for Solaris is Patch Check Advanced, http://www.par.univie.ac.at/solaris/pca/ > > For patch installation, yes. > > I'm looking for an "auditing" system that can keep track of many > machines and see which one are out-of-date. Not many options from > the looks of it. pca.sh can do auditing as well, but you'll have to write your own e.g. Nagios wrapper AFAIK. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH --Apple-Mail-133-194283740 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkuabYsACgkQIn7hlCsL25XSlgCfRRcUnMBAf30omOgKFFAmUtrX SLAAnAxg9l+Vuy9IO7uXUNKyUT/kqRZD =+sPs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-133-194283740-- From davebahm@gmail.com Fri Mar 12 08:57:30 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2CGvUhq073093 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:57:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davebahm@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gx0-f210.google.com (mail-gx0-f210.google.com [209.85.217.210]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2CGvRoL021157 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:57:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by gxk2 with SMTP id 2so528487gxk.10 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:57:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ArYXWAcBXN7+3j41VmhN0Ze+J1qpKMsgoVXznw0D9q8=; b=BO5v6cZgEwhd81/ueDRKnuMPVX3QNIPVFfy/ZP/LvNbjJTgQvdv9cv8118CkS3puTo JVYCmNjeGgFOt9O1QrElSLSGJvUzm2pzGgb6/4uBvOZlOG3AhFfTjIikK+7e3OmOvNxi 4mtelhPiVw2ZEEzeweIX9d+u+2EdkxWQmciR0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=iyP+y4m5NHPsgdbsoFYCwIa05lbL4GicXrXvF2BzVhvD8kbwEzj9Giyg7JtH1Eq0pj zTrmnegrmmZoFgjN6a9hcB+ZoRwvVktZmgpSHtc9xGUKQsXW3yh5o9FQiVsNDr2+ibGa L2lUMFErjhUgOIEAWThl+aJMV28MX6Lh2rPYI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.36.5 with SMTP id j5mr1308708anj.136.1268413041963; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:57:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20100311195659.GD4380@physics.umn.edu> <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43D74CDA-020B-40FF-ABEF-FF238B3CE903@ece.cmu.edu> <19D09D9E-A9FF-4147-8C9C-7CD2F9E050FB@ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:57:21 -0500 Message-ID: From: David Bahm To: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:57:31 -0000 We used GFI languard for awhile, I know it can scan Windows for patches and vulnerabilities. Looks like they've added some Linux capabilities to it: http://www.gfi.com/lannetscan/lanscanfeatures.htm however for strictly Unix may not help much. On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 11:36 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH < allbery@ece.cmu.edu> wrote: > On Mar 12, 2010, at 07:17 , David Magda wrote: > >> On Mar 11, 2010, at 23:01, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: >> >>> The canonical solution for Solaris is Patch Check Advanced, >>> http://www.par.univie.ac.at/solaris/pca/ >>> >> >> For patch installation, yes. >> >> I'm looking for an "auditing" system that can keep track of many machines >> and see which one are out-of-date. Not many options from the looks of it. >> > > > pca.sh can do auditing as well, but you'll have to write your own e.g. > Nagios wrapper AFAIK. > > > -- > brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com > system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu > electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH > > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > From royce.williams@gmail.com Fri Mar 12 09:02:10 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2CH2AfA073255 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:02:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from royce.williams@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f187.google.com (mail-pz0-f187.google.com [209.85.222.187]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2CH27BY021392 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:02:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by pzk17 with SMTP id 17so897078pzk.31 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:02:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=NkycRLzxtpOHe7mJaDrEbqKj1EvwvlI21QJpfKt0FdA=; b=dNrFBjHpa0EkL1w2qsyW16OylpGrKJ4lnH7HDOHqepWEDVlPTQ1vv/LvjXAdPXgxh0 +e9HqN0XjC+Xo5w1ccAum5TUFZuFDxq/A9MHUPi8/eSpKQ6NKewC/oSadkbLRQc386qw 89MLR8vaM8dONAeAVnAhC3ghro2eSQUI+/ors= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=n/l+/iFFJRj9GsXNozLl/4jtvP49mdKmj/Fn4XOTDTqhu7cwEW/ZXXa5iNYKsxMSLN P/4Pt4M565UrG0wX0lGM/YBQCUrNh649jGJ6I61qOX0k7mGXkypeJnS9f+MCxM4Pd2vz pxpZc2X4AY5xk/LgwBcWVvncNghVexwX9Xpo4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.141.108.14 with SMTP id k14mr3243870rvm.29.1268411735420; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:35:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <19D09D9E-A9FF-4147-8C9C-7CD2F9E050FB@ee.ryerson.ca> References: <20100311195659.GD4380@physics.umn.edu> <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43D74CDA-020B-40FF-ABEF-FF238B3CE903@ece.cmu.edu> <19D09D9E-A9FF-4147-8C9C-7CD2F9E050FB@ee.ryerson.ca> From: Royce Williams Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 07:35:15 -0900 Message-ID: <9dd082311003120835q259cece3ua4f6e702b0fce8b8@mail.gmail.com> To: David Magda Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=8% Cc: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:02:11 -0000 On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 3:17 AM, David Magda wrote: > On Mar 11, 2010, at 23:01, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: > >> The canonical solution for Solaris is Patch Check Advanced, >> http://www.par.univie.ac.at/solaris/pca/ > > For patch installation, yes. > > I'm looking for an "auditing" system that can keep track of many machines > and see which one are out-of-date. Not many options from the looks of it. pca can give you a "dry run" report of patches that have not been applied, and it can limit that report to security-related patches. So a one-liner cron job, with the output sent to a specific mailbox, coupled with a scripted daily summary of the results (patches needed by system and by patch) might minimally meet your audit requirement. But it's not pre-assembled, and it's not a cross-platform framework -- which is what it sounds like you're looking for. Royce From jens@quux.de Fri Mar 12 09:55:09 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2CHt8of074626 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:55:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2CHt42W022777 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:55:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17232 invoked by uid 0); 12 Mar 2010 18:54:58 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 17229, pid: 17230, t: 0.0597s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 12 Mar 2010 18:54:58 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Nq94Y-0002DL-00 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:54:54 +0100 From: Jens Link To: Sage Members Organization: - References: <20100311195659.GD4380@physics.umn.edu> <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43D74CDA-020B-40FF-ABEF-FF238B3CE903@ece.cmu.edu> <19D09D9E-A9FF-4147-8C9C-7CD2F9E050FB@ee.ryerson.ca> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:54:54 +0100 In-Reply-To: <19D09D9E-A9FF-4147-8C9C-7CD2F9E050FB@ee.ryerson.ca> (David Magda's message of "Fri, 12 Mar 2010 07:17:51 -0500") Message-ID: <87vdd1juhd.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:55:09 -0000 David Magda writes: > I'm looking for an "auditing" system that can keep track of many > machines and see which one are out-of-date. Not many options from the > looks of it. Nagios was already mentioned. I'm using check_apt to check my Debian based Systems. There are plugins for other distributions / system and I would bet there are similar things for other monitoring solutions as well. Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Fri Mar 12 09:55:55 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2CHtt6n074646 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:55:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2CHtqCg022816 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:55:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o2CHu70u029930 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:56:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <21230.207.61.230.154.1268416567.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:56:07 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Sage Members" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:55:56 -0000 On Wed, March 10, 2010 17:35, David Magda wrote: > What I'm to figure out is a management / auditing tool where it would > take an inventory of machines and let us know which ones are out of > date. Optionally it would then go install updates on command (or we > could it ourselves). Ideally we could organized hosts via business > group (for SOx reasons), as well as dev, stage, prod, I ran across the > Sun^H^H^H Oracle Ops Center [1], and will check out the demos. > > [1] http://www.oracle.com/us/products/enterprise-manager/opscenter/ Seems that Nessus 3.x from Tenable has some patch auditing capabilities in addition to network scanning that it's best known for. (When Nessus 3.x got a more restrictive license, the GPL Nessus 2.x code was forked into a project called OpenVAS. AFAICT the latter has auditing features.) From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Fri Mar 12 09:58:25 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2CHwOcs074734 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:58:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2CHwLEC022914 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:58:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o2CHwJug000717 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:58:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B9A80BB.70102@bio.umass.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:58:19 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Magda References: <20100311195659.GD4380@physics.umn.edu> <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4B9965A3.5090400@bio.umass.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:58:19 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:58:25 -0000 David Magda wrote: > On Mar 11, 2010, at 16:50, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: >> Whenever I build new systems, I use the Security Guide from: >> >> >> http://www.nsa.gov/ia/guidance/security_configuration_guides/index.shtml >> >> which (I'm on Solaris) had collaboration from both Sun and NSA. I >> have the pdf's on my desktop system for ready reference and the link >> noted on my blog so I don't have to worry about remembering where to >> find it again. > I believe Sun/Solaris JASS has a lot of the items in the NSA's guide > in its standard checklist, so running it in full- (or even mostly-) > lock-down mode will take care of things. True. However, there are things it does that aren't appropriate for our environment. By doing it all manually, I retain control. I do those things that make sense for us, and I understand in detail what has been done and what has not. In some cases I'm actually more restrictive, in others less. I'm extremely paranoid, but I also operate in an academic environment, and there are some things I cannot dictate to faculty. >> Nevertheless, it is still good to regularly catch the recommended and >> security patch bundles. > Yes, and that's my primary inquiry: a system for keeping track of > patches on systems. At the very least reporting, and ideally in managing. Even that can be very difficult. For example, there is an e1000g driver patch that is very important on some of my systems and useless on others. It's not part of the recommended and security patch bundles. That one patch is a very special case. But there are plenty of others where I don't have a patch installed, because I don't have the software installed. I've started with a minimal network install of Solaris 10 and added only those components I needed along with their dependencies. Anyway, I think Lyndon Nerenberg's response that it's all about volume hit the nail on the head. For many of us, it is relatively easy to manage our Unix systems manually. But, if you have a mess of Windows systems along with Windows desktops, it's another story. Also, I think with Windows you're more likely to have a default install, which both simplifies and necessitates the patching process. -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Fri Mar 12 10:55:46 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2CItjxb076395 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:55:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2CItgRW024753 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:55:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o2CItrWn003452; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 13:55:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 13:55:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <59375.207.61.230.154.1268420153.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <87vdd1juhd.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> References: <20100311195659.GD4380@physics.umn.edu> <19990.207.61.230.154.1268340852.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43D74CDA-020B-40FF-ABEF-FF238B3CE903@ece.cmu.edu> <19D09D9E-A9FF-4147-8C9C-7CD2F9E050FB@ee.ryerson.ca> <87vdd1juhd.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 13:55:53 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Jens Link" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:55:46 -0000 On Fri, March 12, 2010 12:54, Jens Link wrote: > Nagios was already mentioned. I'm using check_apt to check my Debian > based Systems. There are plugins for other distributions / system and I > would bet there are similar things for other monitoring solutions as > well. Seems there's a "check_solaris_pca", though it only specifically mentions Solaris 10, and not 8 and 9. Thanks. From steve.c.simmons@gmail.com Fri Mar 12 15:30:41 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2CNUfAF082272 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:30:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steve.c.simmons@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iw0-f177.google.com (mail-iw0-f177.google.com [209.85.223.177]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2CNUclF000440 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by iwn7 with SMTP id 7so610744iwn.26 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:30:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Lz4E9EyV9/DhfGGTguACvvdmjrNlPw8BcnKIzN67ak8=; b=hLBzW0s8eH4Sy8THTLav23stFD+irPGPXc44yXL0NKVHjkGetBsrtjGuuHw/CrI07r Qlot7OXoR3ewJ4tjnseicoApBPux3cbDS2o8+20sgudk+Jgi5XYX+QaNRkIN4bztYcLx QTCy3UiMmKkWszUY3s3eyAoOgEZ2rO4Z/FgYk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=YTPj6qTUbgftrQsJrq1yiXpfouiSMQv6l7fkkR88HRlqjVdyrqcCBpX5sCfX0JRl+o uXz4XVFVWwrg4NerydBgbgUTFmd6Hdc0N/Zc5rmHv5r6cW/9wHDK0so4IY+wOG6wQVFR mkn5mOJE/S431laZWJ+KeZkp4KrCb1zIU29fY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.59.5 with SMTP id j5mr155971ibh.6.1268436632985; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:30:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:30:32 -0500 Message-ID: From: Steve Simmons To: Sage Members X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=3% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 23:30:42 -0000 I am a huge, huge fan of radmind ( http://rsug.itd.umich.edu/software/radmind/), but have to say right up front that (a) the initial install curve can be steep and (b) it does not play well with package-oriented systems of any flavor. I don't recommend it for the faint of heart or those who administer 100 or less systems. We use it large with our own linux from scratch stuff and have had moderate success integrating it with gentoo. Integration with RH has been really really hard; the jury is still out if it's worth the effort. Based on what I've seen, it would play nice with debian, not nice at all with any rpm-based setup. Radmind combines a package-type system with tripwire. You write a configuration file for a type of system, turn the crank when building one of those systems, and radmind makes the system look like the config file (handwave, handwave). After the initial build, you should be running a nightly job which does a tripwire-like check that verifies the system against what radmind thinks it should be. That check can be used to simply report to you things that are out of sync, or could be used to automatically update the system to spec. You choose what alternative is more important to you. Things radmind doesn't do well: Things like crontab files can be hard. Our answer/workaround: use a cron that doesn't put everything into one crontab file. Ditto for inittabs, yadda, yadda. Things like package dbs are nearly impossible. If you must use vendor rpms or equiv with radmind, either get used to very coarse-grained control or a lot of work to integrate the vendors package system into radmind packages, and fake the rpm dbs. Conversely, it's not impossible - we admin some RH systems with it, and it manages a lot of our Apple systems. In fact, it's made big inroads in the Apple community in spite of some, er, impedance mismatches. But it is hard to get over the initial humps. Post-package-scripts don't work well. But after struggling with the issue for a while, I've come to the conclusion that post-package scripts are really a workaround for things that Should Be Done Differently. See my comments on cron, above. Things radmind does really well: Gives me very fine-grained control of what our systems look like. Let's me roll out all but the most major patches with the bare minimum of personal involvement. Saves me shitloads of work on a daily basis. One last comment: I want to *severely* take most vendors and their install and package systems to task. There's nothing in radmind that's new or special; it's just done right. (OK, that might be new and special in some sense). The core idea is that the system configuration mechanism, the installation mechanism, the patch mechanism, the package mechanism, and the system auditing mechanism (again, think tripwire) ought to be done as a cohesive whole. When they are, it's a thing of beauty. Steve From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Fri Mar 12 15:59:16 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2CNxFxn082788 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:59:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2CNxCma000870 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:59:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o2CNxAx5000970 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:59:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B9AD54E.5050608@bio.umass.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:59:10 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Simmons References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:59:11 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 23:59:17 -0000 Just a quick comment that the person in my department who manages the Mac labs and classrooms (hundreds of Macs), uses radmind. If a faculty member asks for new software in a lab or classroom on Monday, it can be rolled out to all the Macs before their class Tuesday morning without too terribly much trouble. Not always that easy, because it depends on the software to be installed, and it must be said that the guy responsible for it is good and has built the system himself over several years. But, in that setting, it's hard to imagine anything better. We also rsync the radmind directories between my servers in different buildings so that the Macs there will get the same changes that are rolled out here. I didn't really think of that in terms of patch management, because it wouldn't apply for my dozen or so servers. What it basically boils down to is that this guy manages a few images (patching them, updating them, adding software), and radmind pushes it out. It goes out automatically in the middle of the night, but he can also run around jump start it in a classroom if need be. It just requires manually launching the script on each machine. --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 Steve Simmons wrote: > I am a huge, huge fan of radmind ( > http://rsug.itd.umich.edu/software/radmind/), but have to say right up front > that (a) the initial install curve can be steep and (b) it does not play > well with package-oriented systems of any flavor. I don't recommend it for > the faint of heart or those who administer 100 or less systems. We use it > large with our own linux from scratch stuff and have had moderate success > integrating it with gentoo. Integration with RH has been really really hard; > the jury is still out if it's worth the effort. Based on what I've seen, it > would play nice with debian, not nice at all with any rpm-based setup. > > Radmind combines a package-type system with tripwire. You write a > configuration file for a type of system, turn the crank when building one of > those systems, and radmind makes the system look like the config file > (handwave, handwave). > > After the initial build, you should be running a nightly job which does a > tripwire-like check that verifies the system against what radmind thinks it > should be. That check can be used to simply report to you things that are > out of sync, or could be used to automatically update the system to spec. > You choose what alternative is more important to you. > > Things radmind doesn't do well: > > Things like crontab files can be hard. Our answer/workaround: use a cron > that doesn't put everything into one crontab file. Ditto for inittabs, > yadda, yadda. > > Things like package dbs are nearly impossible. If you must use vendor rpms > or equiv with radmind, either get used to very coarse-grained control or a > lot of work to integrate the vendors package system into radmind packages, > and fake the rpm dbs. Conversely, it's not impossible - we admin some RH > systems with it, and it manages a lot of our Apple systems. In fact, it's > made big inroads in the Apple community in spite of some, er, impedance > mismatches. But it is hard to get over the initial humps. > > Post-package-scripts don't work well. But after struggling with the issue > for a while, I've come to the conclusion that post-package scripts are > really a workaround for things that Should Be Done Differently. See my > comments on cron, above. > > Things radmind does really well: > > Gives me very fine-grained control of what our systems look like. > > Let's me roll out all but the most major patches with the bare minimum of > personal involvement. > > Saves me shitloads of work on a daily basis. > > One last comment: I want to *severely* take most vendors and their install > and package systems to task. There's nothing in radmind that's new or > special; it's just done right. (OK, that might be new and special in some > sense). The core idea is that the system configuration mechanism, the > installation mechanism, the patch mechanism, the package mechanism, and the > system auditing mechanism (again, think tripwire) ought to be done as a > cohesive whole. When they are, it's a thing of beauty. > > Steve > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Fri Mar 12 16:28:37 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2D0SbaS083371 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:28:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toq11-srv.bellnexxia.net (toq11.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.118]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2D0SX6n001287 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from toip4.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.87]) by tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100313002624.BUMH22975.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip4.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:26:24 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBALBmmktMQR/A/2dsb2JhbAAH1z+EewSDGIsq Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279336384.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.65.31.192]) by toip4.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 12 Mar 2010 19:49:14 -0500 Message-Id: <637B2663-068E-4968-981F-D7BA152B7CF0@ee.ryerson.ca> From: David Magda To: Chris Hoogendyk In-Reply-To: <4B9AD54E.5050608@bio.umass.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:26:22 -0500 References: <4B9AD54E.5050608@bio.umass.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Cc: Steve Simmons , Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 00:28:37 -0000 On Mar 12, 2010, at 18:59, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: > I didn't really think of that in terms of patch management, because > it wouldn't apply for my dozen or so servers. What it basically > boils down to is that this guy manages a few images (patching them, > updating them, adding software), and radmind pushes it out. I've known about radmind for a few years now, but IMHO it's designed and best-suited for cookie cutter environments. Labs, classrooms, and even HPC clusters would a good fit. But where some systems are SMTP servers, others run Oracle, TIBCO, WebSEAL, SAP, Tomcat, mailman, etc., not so much. If you need bit-identical machines then it could be a good fit (or just use diskless clients), but personally I find it hard seeing it fit in a more nuanced (?) environment. It's also hard to fit into an existing infrastructure, especially compared to Puppet or Chef, where you can build up your configuration gradually over time. From cmc@math.hmc.edu Fri Mar 12 16:58:31 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2D0wVBq083855 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:58:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmc@math.hmc.edu) Received: from esme.math.hmc.edu (esme.Math.HMC.Edu [134.173.34.194]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2D0wSET001730 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:58:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from vosill.math.hmc.edu (vosill.math.hmc.edu [134.173.34.88]) by esme.math.hmc.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o2D0wCq9012503 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:58:12 -0800 Received: from vosill.math.hmc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vosill.math.hmc.edu (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o2D0wCjP028785; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:58:12 -0800 From: "C.M. Connelly" To: David Magda In-reply-to: <637B2663-068E-4968-981F-D7BA152B7CF0@ee.ryerson.ca> References: <4B9AD54E.5050608@bio.umass.edu> <637B2663-068E-4968-981F-D7BA152B7CF0@ee.ryerson.ca> Comments: In-reply-to message from David Magda dated "Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:26:22 -0500." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3; GNU Emacs 22.1.1 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:58:12 -0800 Message-ID: <28784.1268441892@vosill.math.hmc.edu> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: Steve Simmons , Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: "C.M. Connelly" List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 00:58:31 -0000 I experimented with Radmind for a while for managing our Macs (mostly faculty machines; a few lab machines) and found that it just didn't work for what we needed, especially given the mix of different kinds of machines that we have (which was even worse at the time). I have similar issues with imaging approaches -- if you have lots of the same machine, plus a couple to use as master machines, it's a good approach, but if you have a mix of machines bought over time, you run into issues very quickly. (In particular, Apple claims that you should never assume that an image made with a particular type of machine (say an Intel iMac) will work on a different type of machine (say an Intel MacBook Pro). I've seen a lot of material about using Puppet to manage Macs, and that's the direction that I'm leaning, especially as it would also be useful for our Linux systems. (I only have a couple of Windows machine to care about.) Claire *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Claire M. Connelly cmc@math.hmc.edu System Administrator, Dept. of Mathematics, Harvey Mudd College *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From steve.c.simmons@gmail.com Fri Mar 12 22:51:34 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2D6pYpb092570 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 22:51:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steve.c.simmons@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iw0-f177.google.com (mail-iw0-f177.google.com [209.85.223.177]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2D6pVuC007466 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 22:51:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by iwn7 with SMTP id 7so861090iwn.26 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 22:51:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=zWZ+nEl+LiQHaP//0xuKLsUbARhH6afzM35VRRLLqN4=; b=vPTpDWKgmCm2gKn8k4cqZ4oOnXqkHazhvxrzexhQnpVQkNinBej35s2B0E4QgEHj2/ 9J7ltIth/59PAyAHL3UThtBz6KxjxWtRF597SuhjyN8+As0dhcABgduwP1aYkd0sMMAG DNJ6aKvllf7ducrFbXt9IneUAEYq24Wb0GwNk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=MEUabbLVzf/AIgsoUA09pVmP6Y7NSoeo6e7Tv1+Gic98uE0bz1cgYfNecXel47BRjz Zw+oE24bktkpAzhDFmkmyZ7/7uqnTWe9azauGMVsQvBa+CZxN1XrQ/YhB1Q4DyeGWtL8 kcFoPZUOCTcv6e6lKAmGaoidbs3bsBpdZLO8I= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.174.142 with SMTP id t14mr1876142ibz.69.1268463085474; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 22:51:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <637B2663-068E-4968-981F-D7BA152B7CF0@ee.ryerson.ca> References: <4B9AD54E.5050608@bio.umass.edu> <637B2663-068E-4968-981F-D7BA152B7CF0@ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 01:51:25 -0500 Message-ID: From: Steve Simmons To: David Magda X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=3% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix patch management / auditing tool X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 06:51:35 -0000 On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 7:26 PM, David Magda wrote: > On Mar 12, 2010, at 18:59, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: > > I didn't really think of that in terms of patch management, because it >> wouldn't apply for my dozen or so servers. What it basically boils down to >> is that this guy manages a few images (patching them, updating them, adding >> software), and radmind pushes it out. >> > > I've known about radmind for a few years now, but IMHO it's designed and > best-suited for cookie cutter environments. > As far as I can tell, that's true of most CM systems. Getting radmind done right is hard, keeping it done right is equally hard. But we administer at least 30 different 'classes' of machine with it. It's also hard to fit into an existing infrastructure, especially compared > to Puppet or Chef, where you can build up your configuration gradually over > time. > True. I suppose one could gradually 'grow out' a radmind install one package at a time, but it'd be a long time before you'd really start reaping the benefits. Dunno if same applies to puppet or chef, and if so, to what degree. But that goes back to my comment about vendors - the real key is that install, CM, patches, auditing, etc, all are driven from a common base. No vendor has yet seized on this concept and implemented it. From zvr@zvr.gr Sat Mar 13 11:20:21 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2DJKJlO010265 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2010 11:20:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zvr@zvr.gr) Received: from kyrios.zvr.gr (postfix@kyrios.zvr.gr [195.251.255.25]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2DJKF7s000470 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2010 11:20:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by kyrios.zvr.gr (Postfix, from userid 222) id 9308023CF8; Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:53:27 +0200 (EET) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:53:27 +0200 From: Alexios Zavras To: sage-members@usenix.org Message-ID: <20100313185327.GS7816@zvr.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailing-Address: P.O. Box 24071, GR-11110 Athens, Greece X-Mobile: +30-6947181285 X-Phone: +30-2102010669 X-Fax: +30-2102010669 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: Alexios Zavras Subject: [SAGE] trouble ticketing system recommendation X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 19:20:21 -0000 A recent post triggered me back to looking at trouble ticketing systems (aka issue tracking systems). I'm looking for something to be used in a customer-support-like situation with the following functional requirements: - large-scale (for some definition of "large") - customizable web interface (i18n included, ideally multi-language) -- and the more web-2.0-like, the better - although the "support team" / "handlers" / "workers" will obviously be using accounts, people can submit requests more "anonymously" (e.g., through a simple form leaving their email) - tickets are *not* visible to anyone (by default), except for submitter and handler(s); i.e. not like public bug reporting - ticket submission should include an "upload file attachment(s)" functionality - ideally, a ticket "characterization" where the submitter can (multiple?) select from an hierarchy of categories Hmmm, I realize I've described things about the "customer" side and not much about the "handler" side -- that's intentional. Of course, it would be great to have extra functionality on the other side like workflows or alerts or ..., but the important stuff is in the list above. Yes, I've seen the list at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_issue_tracking_systems but any help on pruning it would be greatly appreciated. -- -- zvr -- -- +---------------------------+ Alexios Zavras (-zvr-) | H eytyxia den exei enoxes | zvr@zvr.gr +-----------------------zvr-+ From jens@quux.de Sat Mar 13 15:33:43 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2DNXgRx016743 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:33:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2DNXceh004025 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:33:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 2759 invoked by uid 0); 14 Mar 2010 00:33:31 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 2755, pid: 2756, t: 0.0719s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 14 Mar 2010 00:33:31 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Nqapj-0004IC-00 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 00:33:27 +0100 From: Jens Link To: sage-members@usenix.org Organization: - References: <20100313185327.GS7816@zvr.gr> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 00:33:27 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20100313185327.GS7816@zvr.gr> (Alexios Zavras's message of "Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:53:27 +0200") Message-ID: <871vfn7q60.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] trouble ticketing system recommendation X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 23:33:43 -0000 Alexios Zavras writes: > A recent post triggered me back to looking at trouble ticketing systems > (aka issue tracking systems). http://www.otrs.org Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From shades2@iinet.net.au Sat Mar 13 17:22:29 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2E1MTFP019413 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2010 17:22:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shades2@iinet.net.au) Received: from outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out5.iinet.net.au (outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out5.iinet.net.au [203.59.1.105]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2E1MPME005986 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2010 17:22:28 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAK/Gm0vLzlNC/2dsb2JhbAAH02aEewSDFg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,635,1262534400"; d="scan'208";a="114128547" Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.10]) ([203.206.83.66]) by outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out5.iinet.net.au with ESMTP; 14 Mar 2010 09:12:39 +0800 Message-ID: <4B9C3808.2010103@iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 09:12:40 +0800 From: shades2 User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jens Link References: <20100313185327.GS7816@zvr.gr> <871vfn7q60.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> In-Reply-To: <871vfn7q60.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=27% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] trouble ticketing system recommendation X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 01:22:30 -0000 Jens Link wrote: > Alexios Zavras writes: > > >> A recent post triggered me back to looking at trouble ticketing systems >> (aka issue tracking systems). >> > > http://www.otrs.org > > Jens > We have tried OTRS ourselves, it is fully open source, and you can customise it, but it amounts to a lot of work to maintain. We have stopped using OTRS and we are now using Kayako eSupport http://www.kayako.com/solutions/esupport/ http://www.kayako.com/solutions/supportsuite/ Install onto a Linux machine with PHP/Apache/ It costs around the $300USD mark, but it's probably worth it. Thanks, Mike. From bryanf@samurai.com Sat Mar 13 18:30:14 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2E2UEMM020654 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:30:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bryanf@samurai.com) Received: from st01.samurai.com (st01.samurai.com [216.235.14.52]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2E2UB4T007155 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:30:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from h216-235-8-77.host.egate.net ([216.235.8.77] helo=[192.168.2.11]) by st01.samurai.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nqd3j-0000DD-LN for sage-members@usenix.org; Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:56:03 -0500 Message-ID: <4B9C4236.2070904@samurai.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:56:06 -0500 From: Bryan Fullerton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <20100313185327.GS7816@zvr.gr> <871vfn7q60.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <4B9C3808.2010103@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <4B9C3808.2010103@iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus-Scanner: Clean mail though you should still use an Antivirus X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] trouble ticketing system recommendation X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 02:30:15 -0000 On 13/03/2010 8:12 PM, shades2 wrote: > We have tried OTRS ourselves, it is fully open source, and you can > customise it, but it amounts to a lot of work to maintain. > > We have stopped using OTRS and we are now using Kayako eSupport We were using Kayako's hosted SupportSuite offering at $dayjob and it was horrible. Searching was entirely broken, reporting was minimal, and a couple of months ago the server our instance was on blew up and they lost 1.5days of data (100+ tickets). Obviously YMMV, especially if you're hosting it yourselves -- our management decided that we should only be managing services that are our core business and let vendors provide non-core services, yay! We've recently switched to the Beetil hosted service (http://www.beetil.com/), which is not perfect -- their email integration is new and still a bit buggy, for example, and they're in Australia which is a bit of a risk since their support hours do not match ours -- but after almost a month of use our experience has been very good. It's very easy to use, and follows ITIL without making you hate it. I've also used OTRS in the past (still host the only mirror on this side of the Pacific) and found it very good for a large perl application, but no longer need a ticketing system for my consulting company. OTRS would be a contender if I was setting up an in-house ticketing system again in the future. Bryan From seph@directionless.org Sun Mar 14 08:40:07 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2EFe6Tj034783 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 08:40:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from seph@directionless.org) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2EFe2WD028704 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 08:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2 [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30567E0401 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from heartbeat1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:40:02 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=from:to:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=smtpout; bh=t/Rc2ILyeU+vYwyt/lo6pRkBlUE=; b=BNOTfugkQe4h5G2f3E46zfkl51YHi4rGmNdHrAgiHlFRxE7gkliCwQ98W5lHIL9sfZDo3GPE2FHgBeaGa7DuEjrfwuX0mKSemh7uTAK7dCSFOGzP5eLjBfqlVV7/+HW80DBuWvoeunyagdQO+payiM0YeecAxDOnHzsroLmA0SA= X-Sasl-enc: PKH6Jw+thIGfov+UBLVZ4donkjsoLo+Re+L+f6lTAeCv 1268581200 Received: from bastion.directionless.org (c-24-128-190-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.128.190.204]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D20D14AE0F1 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:40:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by bastion.directionless.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:40:00 -0400 From: seph To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <20100313185327.GS7816@zvr.gr> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:40:00 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20100313185327.GS7816@zvr.gr> (Alexios Zavras's message of "Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:53:27 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110008 (No Gnus v0.8) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=8% Subject: Re: [SAGE] trouble ticketing system recommendation X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 15:40:07 -0000 Alexios Zavras writes: > A recent post triggered me back to looking at trouble ticketing systems > (aka issue tracking systems). Generally, I'm an RT fan. http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/ seph From prvs=06904cb59c=phil.pennock@globnix.org Sun Mar 14 19:11:40 2010 Received: from mx.spodhuis.org (redoubt.spodhuis.org [94.142.241.89]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2F2Bdkm046264 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:11:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from prvs=06904cb59c=phil.pennock@globnix.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=globnix.org; s=d200912; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=rBmaRs14ZHfPF9/DIQnJHaDml1Wsw9IdeUNQAmbQD94=; b=cwrYTm9HxZbNA6MUXRrvyifyA4JqS0+mZNeTFgSPyF7Hu72m8qw1WYUn7kAGqBB9R+65ZTZFq8XG1C+W6IoiOvY2/hN0ZCkt3WlofKXw1emF+v+4vuZ3moKRpvlo3e+MxpS0qPQmvA2pG/RcbwNSmsrB+FB44ttoK3kpiQP3W0U=; Received: by smtp.spodhuis.org with local id 1NqzmK-000OWW-2A; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 02:11:36 +0000 Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:11:36 -0700 From: Phil Pennock To: Jonathan Billings Message-ID: <20100315021135.GA94167@redoubt.spodhuis.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20100210182927.GB31811@catbert.org> <20100210183646.GA2289@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu> <20100210195811.GA81956@redoubt.spodhuis.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100210195811.GA81956@redoubt.spodhuis.org> Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 02:11:41 -0000 On 2010-02-10 at 20:58 +0100, Phil Pennock wrote: > On 2010-02-10 at 13:36 -0500, Jonathan Billings wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 01:29:27PM -0500, Dan Foster wrote: > > > Apple's Airport Extreme Base Station is the best known of the major mfrs. > > > Can't say I was wild about the price but after some Amazon gift > > > certificates, it's now about $60 for me which is much more palatable. > > > > I just set up my Airport Extreme yesterday, and the problem I > > encountered was that the latest firmware seems to have a bug in it, > > where if the system uses DHCP or PPPoE to get it's external IP, it > > simply doesn't set up ipv6, even though it is properly configured in > > the settings. Changing it to a Static IP made it work. > > When I last used an Airport Extreme, it was happy to use 6to4 (RFCs > 3056, 3068, 3964 & 5158) to do automatic tunnelling when obtaining an > address via DHCP, but would not set up a statically configured tunnel > unless its WAN link was also statically configured. > > Worked nicely, I'd go back in a heartbeat, if there were a sane way to > stay up-to-date without a Mac computer. Status update: I succumbed, bought a personal Mac, got a new Airport Extreme to go with it. It is now possible to use a statically configured tunnel for IPv6 while obtaining the IPv4 address via DHCP. I have an HE tunnel up now. Of course, if the DHCP-assigned address changes, IPv6 will now be broken until I tell he.net what my new IPv4 address is. With 6to4, that problem is not there, but the problems of route diagnosis are. So IPv6 is up and running, used both 6to4 and HE.net, on an Airport running firmware 7.5. IPv4 DHCP assignment from Comcast. I'm still in the starry-eyed period with the Airport, my second one. *Much* better radio signal than the DLink DIR-825 it replaces, works cleanly throughout my apartment. The IPv6 just works, where the DIR-825 will not support IPv6 on the model revision number I have (WTF? I bought this *after* the manufacturer started touting how widely they now supported IPv6). Simultaneous dual-band working sanely and all quite nice. Only downside is that the cat, still, likes the nice warm seat that an Airport offers. -Phil From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Sun Mar 14 20:04:40 2010 Received: from tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.74]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2F34dXv047205 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 20:04:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toip5.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.88]) by tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100315030427.LDLF27709.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip5.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 23:04:27 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAKM6nUtMRXlX/2dsb2JhbAAH0XaEewQ Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279621463.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.69.121.87]) by toip5.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 14 Mar 2010 23:03:31 -0400 Message-Id: <9AF21417-8C41-467D-9EF4-8ABC0FDDC9FA@ee.ryerson.ca> From: David Magda To: Phil Pennock In-Reply-To: <20100315021135.GA94167@redoubt.spodhuis.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 23:04:26 -0400 References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20100210182927.GB31811@catbert.org> <20100210183646.GA2289@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu> <20100210195811.GA81956@redoubt.spodhuis.org> <20100315021135.GA94167@redoubt.spodhuis.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 03:04:41 -0000 On Mar 14, 2010, at 22:11, Phil Pennock wrote: > So IPv6 is up and running, used both 6to4 and HE.net, on an Airport > running firmware 7.5. IPv4 DHCP assignment from Comcast. Since you're with Comcast, you may want to look into their residential beta: http://tech.slashdot.org/story/10/01/27/2146226/ From prvs=06904cb59c=phil.pennock@globnix.org Mon Mar 15 00:11:28 2010 Received: from mx.spodhuis.org (redoubt.spodhuis.org [94.142.241.89]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2F7BQIf051644 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 00:11:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from prvs=06904cb59c=phil.pennock@globnix.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=globnix.org; s=d200912; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=C/tHFI2YWCV0fxufmsXDCGJNFGD8xzsOdKncMM31TiM=; b=sqPBq1WB8nKw0gr25ui4t2gZQPLEs6bGcnkOiSsdu9LPDR2zt/elIq0tsmxo3aVGAgNawDYVcho2hKl36sPaQzL8rCwRIjFan8Y2vpmrJq3yt3mm4cjH+RiR/2ESiFEqluOo+QiCWFuy7up13w6H7ayUSL8hxKFnY6uPUKKB5mc=; Received: by smtp.spodhuis.org with local id 1Nr4SS-00007B-R3; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:11:24 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 00:11:24 -0700 From: Phil Pennock To: David Magda Message-ID: <20100315071124.GA402@redoubt.spodhuis.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20100210182927.GB31811@catbert.org> <20100210183646.GA2289@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu> <20100210195811.GA81956@redoubt.spodhuis.org> <20100315021135.GA94167@redoubt.spodhuis.org> <9AF21417-8C41-467D-9EF4-8ABC0FDDC9FA@ee.ryerson.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9AF21417-8C41-467D-9EF4-8ABC0FDDC9FA@ee.ryerson.ca> Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:11:28 -0000 On 2010-03-14 at 23:04 -0400, David Magda wrote: > On Mar 14, 2010, at 22:11, Phil Pennock wrote: > > So IPv6 is up and running, used both 6to4 and HE.net, on an Airport > > running firmware 7.5. IPv4 DHCP assignment from Comcast. > > Since you're with Comcast, you may want to look into their residential > beta: > > http://tech.slashdot.org/story/10/01/27/2146226/ Indeed, already applied. No word yet, so in the meantime it's tunnel-time. -Phil From tal@whatexit.org Mon Mar 15 10:25:33 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2FHPXsn063101 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:25:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-vw0-f48.google.com (mail-vw0-f48.google.com [209.85.212.48]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2FHPUTc005253 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vws20 with SMTP id 20so947354vws.35 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:25:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.108.198 with SMTP id g6mr3355920vcp.188.1268673924348; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:25:24 -0400 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91003151025p319a948ubf62a10ac29454d3@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: lopsanj-announce@lopsanj.org, Joisey Computah Confrance , LOPSA - New Jersey Chapter , SAGE , LOPSA Discuss List , LOPSA Technical Discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Subject: [SAGE] LOPSA PICC: News! Discount extended! (PICC: May 7-8, NJ/NY/CT/PA area) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:25:34 -0000 Good news! The early-bird discount is being extended 7 days! Save $75 if you register for training between now and Monday. http://picconf.org Registration now starts as low as $249 for the Friday night/Saturday package. See internationally known speakers and trainers without hardly any travel! Come to a regional conference and meet your local peers! http://lopsanj.org/events/picc10/overview Originally the discount registration would have ended tonight at midnight. However, due to the full schedule only recently being available, we've decided to add 1 week to the early-bird discount (Monday, 3/22/2010). Save $75 now! We can't extend it a second time! http://lopsanj.org/events/picc10/registration More info at http://picconf.org SPREAD THE WORD! PLEASE FORWARD! Sincerely, Tom Limoncelli LOPSA NJ PICC is a regional conference for sysadmins of all stripes from May 7-8, 2010 in New Brunswick, New Jersey. The host committee is the NJ chapter of LOPSA. LOPSA is the League of Professional System Administrators. http://picconf.org or http://lopsa.org or http://lopsanj.org for more info. -- Computer and network administrators... Spread the word! LOPSA New Jersey Professional IT Community Conference New Brunswick, NJ, May 7-8, 2010 -- http://picconf.org From sage@richfox.org Mon Mar 15 13:03:18 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2FK3Isd066708 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:03:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sage@richfox.org) Received: from foxengines.net (foxengines.net [69.5.8.162]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id o2FK3FPn022304 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 7696 invoked from network); 15 Mar 2010 20:03:09 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; h=X-Originating-IP:Date:From:X-X-Sender:Reply-To:To:Subject:Message-ID:User-Agent:MIME-Version:Content-Type; s=default; d=richfox.org; b=bzT4WJ+fJoyCV/UuTq1OheisYSBkNzruhXhuTb/SXHIYOn2d0gA6sHvPuxILhovaWO2wcXBHw96LCPRCJN0JkXPCYw4mngv1GUT8uy6yzoaJystFOEYzrnSjTy9pEv9OH8hpNT/sWzK+WvJc7wUVhRkS6r8bk170bIrDGKnPPqQ=; X-Originating-IP: [75.67.163.179] Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:03:08 -0400 (EDT) From: sage@richfox.org X-X-Sender: rfox@powerbook.localdomain To: sage-members@sage.org Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 1.00 (OSX 882 2007-12-20) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: [SAGE] Maturity of iSCSI on linux as initiator? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: sage@richfox.org List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:03:19 -0000 Hi, I'm considering an iSCSI setup for an external tape library. I like the idea of using iSCSI for this application since it will provide a lot of flexibility and long-term agility for identifying and managing the servers that control the library. Almost all of the equipment that I have will be using Fedora 10 or greater over a gigabit network with jumbo frames. My biggest concern is that a number of documents I've come across were written the middle of the last decade. The "News" on the open-iscsi site is from April 2005. The Cuddletech Quick-Guide to iSCSI on Linux is from 2004. (The open-iscsi site was apparently started in jan 2005 and the last NEWS item is 4 months later. I thought I had bad job-induced ADD. The sources however appear to be most recently updated in Jul 2009, so perhaps things are still happening there.) Anwyays, if anyone has any 'avoid it like a plague' or 'works great here' experiences, I'd appreciate the time for any comments and detail you can provide. Thanks, Rich. -- From bill_morris@ncsu.edu Mon Mar 15 13:56:45 2010 Received: from uni12mr.unity.ncsu.edu (uni12mr.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.171]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2FKujpV068140 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:56:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill_morris@ncsu.edu) Received: from gw.ncsu.edu (gwiaa.fis.ncsu.edu [152.1.18.215]) by uni12mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Nv5.2008.0610.1) with ESMTP id o2FKuhNf004441 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:56:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gwiaadom-MTA by gw.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:56:43 -0400 Message-Id: <4B9E66A9.CA9F.0041.0@gw.ncsu.edu> X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 7.0.3 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:56:37 -0400 From: "Bill Morris" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 5.3.3.310218, Antispam-Engine: 2.5.2.313940, Antispam-Data: 2010.3.15.204540 X-Spam-Status: No, Hits=7% X-Spam-Level: IIIIIII Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] Clustered Samba Printing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:56:45 -0000 Hi Folks, =20 I'm part of a Novell department that is working on=20 moving from Novell NDPS printing to Samba printing. =20 I have been told that the Samba environment will=20 have to be clustered to assure the same level of=20 redundancy for printing. =20 Does anyone have any pointers? Whether actual=20 experience in this or a location of good=20 documentation of the clustering process? =20 Thanks for any assistance, Bill Morris =20 Bill Morris (bill_morris@ncsu.edu) Systems & Hosted Systems North Carolina State University From trey@kingfisherops.com Tue Mar 16 00:56:27 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2G7uRME081653 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:56:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from trey@kingfisherops.com) Received: from mail.kingfisherops.com (li28-87.members.linode.com [75.127.72.87]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2G7uOLS012804 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kingfisherops.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.kingfisherops.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B51EE241; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:50:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from 192.101.252.156 (SquirrelMail authenticated user trey@kingfisherops.com) by kingfisherops.com with HTTP; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:50:28 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <2436d29b61a695f993d3f0d7263a73d3.squirrel@kingfisherops.com> In-Reply-To: <9dd082311003110848p309df0eck4f90ec70ea210e70@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B99158E.9080401@gmail.com> <9dd082311003110848p309df0eck4f90ec70ea210e70@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:50:28 +0100 (CET) From: "Trey Darley" To: "Royce Williams" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 06:34:25 -0700 Cc: SAGE Members Mailing List Subject: Re: [SAGE] entry level books? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: trey@kingfisherops.com List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 07:56:27 -0000 "Think Unix" => double-plus good for beginners. --Trey > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 7:08 AM, Marco Marongiu > wrote: >> I have been asked by a friend about a book about system and network >> administration, for beginners. > > On the systems side, I've found "Think UNIX" by John Lasser to be a > great way to jump-start someone's overall approach. > > Royce > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From trey@kingfisherops.com Tue Mar 16 00:59:15 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2G7xF38081733 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:59:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from trey@kingfisherops.com) Received: from mail.kingfisherops.com (li28-87.members.linode.com [75.127.72.87]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2G7xCKh012931 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kingfisherops.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.kingfisherops.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05C46E241; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:59:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from 192.101.252.156 (SquirrelMail authenticated user trey@kingfisherops.com) by kingfisherops.com with HTTP; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:59:06 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <49194.207.61.230.154.1268235800.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> References: <82a71f8a1003091755l57438f9ej10ee63fcdba81f72@mail.gmail.com> <49194.207.61.230.154.1268235800.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:59:06 +0100 (CET) From: "Trey Darley" To: "David Magda" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 06:34:56 -0700 Cc: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Physical drawings / CAD? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: trey@kingfisherops.com List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 07:59:16 -0000 Another vote for QCAD. --Trey > On Tue, March 9, 2010 20:55, Doug Hanks wrote: >> Hi guys, >> >> Reaching out to anyone with experience with drawing the "Layer 1" in a >> network such as MDF/IDF placement - rack placement - cable management - >> conduits - etc. >> >> Is AutoCAD the best option here? > > A while ago I was at a place where we going to move into a new building, > and during the design phase of said building we wanted to look at and > modify the architectural drawings. AutoCAD really wasn't an option, partly > because of price and partly because we were mostly a Unix shop.* A quick > search in the FreeBSD Ports came up with QCAD: > > http://www.ribbonsoft.com/qcad.html > > It's multi-platform and probably cheaper than AutoCAD if you want only do > simple things. There's a full-featured demo version that's time-limited. > > > * AutoCAD used to run on Unix, however in the '90s it became Windows-only. > Same thing happened with FramkeMaker. > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From kacoroski@gmail.com Tue Mar 16 08:41:53 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2GFfq9J091009 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:41:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kacoroski@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f187.google.com (mail-pz0-f187.google.com [209.85.222.187]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2GFfoNJ025029 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pzk17 with SMTP id 17so24422pzk.31 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:41:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=daFmAjx0mYnOTV1g/JyMFW3Kc1lbuxD4hp+CVGZN2pQ=; b=FQkz7snxRj6EKe1ZBCAWIBAutVmrNqNfNI5BqdjJ9VtxB4K/iJ//6eYj+h0WRTR7TM x/icjt7weweKkJEjBeodJ6ieniMimlJchG5EAXSJ9q1cKsdxNnKbZ49MiCbGIb/laAzy 1Hl7gOrhj2F8RF/z3RVPos/LlmrwuK6vAqkJU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=iYr0uP182/oR3Xpai/0OOR3dNH7N1v1qGI+FlWa9FYQRvpEjzKliQRa/bUa9xhEDTu h9c1ibe246tA0vHKEnNkxuIF9GKfgXP09mPGiyNFZ0HxbGP7uLE0kGiuXPtb3Ol2MRfF Uzw/HnBwcB4mymYY8kbaXbaVjgAQ1jjEbQjEM= Received: by 10.142.118.2 with SMTP id q2mr12488wfc.292.1268754046214; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:40:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.2.9.12] ([152.157.64.243]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 20sm7051030pzk.7.2010.03.16.08.40.44 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4B9FA67B.508@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:40:43 -0700 From: Ski Kacoroski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage@richfox.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Maturity of iSCSI on linux as initiator? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:41:53 -0000 Rich, I use iSCSI with jumbo frames on Debian linux and it works pretty well. Under a heavy load there are a few tuning parameters you need to set on the clients such as: vm.vfs_cache_pressure=1000 vm.min_free_kbytes = 10000 but other than that I have had no problems. I use Equallogic iSCSI arrays on the backend. cheers, ski On 03/15/2010 01:03 PM, sage@richfox.org wrote: > Hi, > > I'm considering an iSCSI setup for an external tape library. I like the > idea of using iSCSI for this application since it will provide a lot of > flexibility and long-term agility for identifying and managing the > servers that control the library. > > Almost all of the equipment that I have will be using Fedora 10 or > greater over a gigabit network with jumbo frames. My biggest concern is > that a number of documents I've come across were written the middle of > the last decade. The "News" on the open-iscsi site is from April 2005. > The Cuddletech Quick-Guide to iSCSI on Linux is from 2004. (The > open-iscsi site was apparently started in jan 2005 and the last NEWS > item is 4 months later. I thought I had bad job-induced ADD. The sources > however appear to be most recently updated in Jul 2009, so perhaps > things are still happening there.) > > Anwyays, if anyone has any 'avoid it like a plague' or 'works great > here' experiences, I'd appreciate the time for any comments and detail > you can provide. > > Thanks, > Rich. > -- "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it connected to the entire universe" John Muir Chris "Ski" Kacoroski, kacoroski@gmail.com, 206-501-9803 or ski98033 on most IM services From dpuryear@puryear-it.com Tue Mar 16 13:05:52 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2GK5qeu096775 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:05:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpuryear@puryear-it.com) Received: from mail.puryear-it.com (mail.puryear-it.com [207.29.213.194]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2GK5nEj001877 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:05:02 -0500 Message-ID: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E1765C6@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: PADL NIS/LDAP Gateway Thread-Index: AcrFQ/as5ACM3de2T8Kd2hx6AEAhgA== From: "Dustin Puryear" To: X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] PADL NIS/LDAP Gateway X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:05:53 -0000 Anyone have experience with PADL's NIS/LDAP Gateway? We're migrating an existing NIS+ service to LDAP, and the client has expressed a need that has us favoring a very staged approach, and this tool could very well help with that. =20 We would be migrating NIS+ (running on Sun) to Sun Directory. =20 --- Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ =20 Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ =20 =20 From rskiadmin@chycoski.com Tue Mar 16 13:34:30 2010 Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2GKYUUP097324 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:34:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rskiadmin@chycoski.com) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEANyHn0urRN+J/2dsb2JhbACbA3OhaIsQAY1sgkocAYIPBIMa X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,652,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="309164488" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2010 20:34:25 +0000 Received: from [171.71.86.69] (rac-ltest0.cisco.com [171.71.86.69]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o2GKYPNr009529 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:34:25 GMT Message-ID: <4B9FEB55.1020802@chycoski.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:34:29 -0700 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E1765C6@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> In-Reply-To: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E1765C6@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] PADL NIS/LDAP Gateway X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:34:31 -0000 How big is the NIS+ installation? Gateways to LDAP can be quite slow for NIS+ clients if you have large group and/or netgroup maps. The group map gets 'walked' at login, and the netgroup map gets walked because NIS+ doesn't have some of the lookups available that some clients expect if you are using YP to access NIS+. Some of the gateways (the two that Sun built, at least) would forward all requests for 'unknown' entries directly to LDAP, so doing an 'ls' in a directory containing many now-deleted users' files can be excrutiating. It's been a while since I tried it, so if anyone has recent experience with how to get around these issues, I'd welcome an update! It's certainly feasible to build a much better NIS+-to-LDAP gateway, I just have yet to see one. AFAIK, the PADL converter is NIS (YP), not NIS+ (a very different animal). - Richard On 3/16/10 1:05 PM, Dustin Puryear wrote: > Anyone have experience with PADL's NIS/LDAP Gateway? We're migrating an > existing NIS+ service to LDAP, and the client has expressed a need that > has us favoring a very staged approach, and this tool could very well > help with that. > > > > We would be migrating NIS+ (running on Sun) to Sun Directory. > > > > --- > Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ > > Active Directory Integration : Web& Enterprise Single Sign-On > Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies > > Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" > http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From dpuryear@puryear-it.com Tue Mar 16 13:41:35 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2GKfXDw097476 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:41:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpuryear@puryear-it.com) Received: from mail.puryear-it.com (mail.puryear-it.com [207.29.213.194]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2GKfRbf002617 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:40:40 -0500 Message-ID: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E1765CC@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] trouble ticketing system recommendation Thread-Index: AcrC41yJcBizT1BQR8ahEHzqGfI44gCZXF2Q References: <20100313185327.GS7816@zvr.gr> From: "Dustin Puryear" To: "Alexios Zavras" , X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2GKfXDw097476 Cc: Alexios Zavras Subject: Re: [SAGE] trouble ticketing system recommendation X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:41:37 -0000 I've used RT and OTRS, and I prefer ServiceDesk. :) The interface isn't really customizable, but the product is solid and you can tweak a lot about it. I like it, it's pretty, it works, and it's a widely deployed and well supported product. --- Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Alexios Zavras Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 12:53 PM To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: Alexios Zavras Subject: [SAGE] trouble ticketing system recommendation A recent post triggered me back to looking at trouble ticketing systems (aka issue tracking systems). I'm looking for something to be used in a customer-support-like situation with the following functional requirements: - large-scale (for some definition of "large") - customizable web interface (i18n included, ideally multi-language) -- and the more web-2.0-like, the better - although the "support team" / "handlers" / "workers" will obviously be using accounts, people can submit requests more "anonymously" (e.g., through a simple form leaving their email) - tickets are *not* visible to anyone (by default), except for submitter and handler(s); i.e. not like public bug reporting - ticket submission should include an "upload file attachment(s)" functionality - ideally, a ticket "characterization" where the submitter can (multiple?) select from an hierarchy of categories Hmmm, I realize I've described things about the "customer" side and not much about the "handler" side -- that's intentional. Of course, it would be great to have extra functionality on the other side like workflows or alerts or ..., but the important stuff is in the list above. Yes, I've seen the list at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_issue_tracking_systems but any help on pruning it would be greatly appreciated. -- -- zvr -- -- +---------------------------+ Alexios Zavras (-zvr-) | H eytyxia den exei enoxes | zvr@zvr.gr +-----------------------zvr-+ _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From chanwilson@gmail.com Tue Mar 16 19:57:16 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f42.google.com (mail-ww0-f42.google.com [74.125.82.42]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2H2vFNv004526 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:57:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chanwilson@gmail.com) Received: by wwi18 with SMTP id 18so34389wwi.1 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:57:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=cDMsQS5J9KGQ5RNoRWJ1VEMPf89zkK2gK1AMj6YIlIw=; b=r7XudWPcSoNCs4N8deUSMXcN0BKkVZzyM2lR9v6LqUJzrD7K8mlZrGwMpJlwCOv0uZ mCYP6Q1UD1rwZJaKf1H36F8ltpdSMqj7ix72F4onKY0kPIzo7kiY1bv71IAXy9F4v3X0 MBTLK51vs77SS2Q/eorqanPPLwkEsLWGoGPZw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=m7uSknJxWGvzdUhqOobr1QNqFmlb/1e6eVtac8YkmeImpIXtSn/KqlQXTJ6FOzrDm1 ZrjgzbXU/hAj2qS4ExyHliwP52Qm+us+DRWDHbd2VjjbnnIGv8SZc7wI6Kxv2p877hlj g7/6zEQJZLTBQa2pVrG/w8iQBY/OdXeRcEOsY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.158.132 with SMTP id q4mr170304wek.233.1268794629964; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:57:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4B9FEB55.1020802@chycoski.com> References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E1765C6@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> <4B9FEB55.1020802@chycoski.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:57:09 -0600 Message-ID: <72cd92bb1003161957v6b7f7911udc8558033321fd46@mail.gmail.com> From: Chan Wilson To: Richard Chycoski Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] PADL NIS/LDAP Gateway X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 02:57:17 -0000 I remember looking into the PADL/NIS gateway when we converted our site. It looked interesting, but seemed to be just another way of delaying the inevitable. The staged approach we took was to implement some behind-the-scenes NIS->LDAP syncronization (which really just boils down to the passwd map, since the groups changed extremely rarely.) As more clusters of systems converted, and we reached critical mass, the synchronization ceased, except for a tiny dangling bit (nearly 5 years later) that still has the old NIS master being used for new users -- getting the "new user account process" updated for (quite literally) "the gray hairs" has never fully completed, since it was easier to "work with" the process than change it. Take a close look at how the existing NIS+ is being used, and judge accordingly. I resorted to tcpdump'ing on the slaves for awhile to understand what the utilization was like, along with watching (and graphing utilization of) the LDAP query logs as we transitioned. --Chan On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Richard Chycoski wrote: > How big is the NIS+ installation? > > Gateways to LDAP can be quite slow for NIS+ clients if you have large group > and/or netgroup maps. The group map gets 'walked' at login, and the netgroup > map gets walked because NIS+ doesn't have some of the lookups available that > some clients expect if you are using YP to access NIS+. Some of the gateways > (the two that Sun built, at least) would forward all requests for 'unknown' > entries directly to LDAP, so doing an 'ls' in a directory containing many > now-deleted users' files can be excrutiating. > > It's been a while since I tried it, so if anyone has recent experience with > how to get around these issues, I'd welcome an update! It's certainly > feasible to build a much better NIS+-to-LDAP gateway, I just have yet to see > one. AFAIK, the PADL converter is NIS (YP), not NIS+ (a very different > animal). > > - Richard > > > On 3/16/10 1:05 PM, Dustin Puryear wrote: > >> Anyone have experience with PADL's NIS/LDAP Gateway? We're migrating an >> existing NIS+ service to LDAP, and the client has expressed a need that >> has us favoring a very staged approach, and this tool could very well >> help with that. >> >> >> >> We would be migrating NIS+ (running on Sun) to Sun Directory. >> >> >> >> --- >> Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ >> >> Active Directory Integration : Web& Enterprise Single Sign-On >> Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies >> >> Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" >> http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From dpuryear@puryear-it.com Wed Mar 17 07:24:25 2010 Received: from mail.puryear-it.com (mail.puryear-it.com [207.29.213.194]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2HEOPbS017932 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:24:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpuryear@puryear-it.com) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:23:38 -0500 Message-ID: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E1765DA@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] PADL NIS/LDAP Gateway Thread-Index: AcrFfzGYCs6WPiUeQmGdVOOlZbeu8QAXik8A References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E1765C6@sbs.Puryear-IT.local><4B9FEB55.1020802@chycoski.com> <72cd92bb1003161957v6b7f7911udc8558033321fd46@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dustin Puryear" To: "Chan Wilson" , "Richard Chycoski" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2HEOPbS017932 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] PADL NIS/LDAP Gateway X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:24:26 -0000 Cool. Thanks everyone. --- Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Chan Wilson Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:57 PM To: Richard Chycoski Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] PADL NIS/LDAP Gateway I remember looking into the PADL/NIS gateway when we converted our site. It looked interesting, but seemed to be just another way of delaying the inevitable. The staged approach we took was to implement some behind-the-scenes NIS->LDAP syncronization (which really just boils down to the passwd map, since the groups changed extremely rarely.) As more clusters of systems converted, and we reached critical mass, the synchronization ceased, except for a tiny dangling bit (nearly 5 years later) that still has the old NIS master being used for new users -- getting the "new user account process" updated for (quite literally) "the gray hairs" has never fully completed, since it was easier to "work with" the process than change it. Take a close look at how the existing NIS+ is being used, and judge accordingly. I resorted to tcpdump'ing on the slaves for awhile to understand what the utilization was like, along with watching (and graphing utilization of) the LDAP query logs as we transitioned. --Chan On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Richard Chycoski wrote: > How big is the NIS+ installation? > > Gateways to LDAP can be quite slow for NIS+ clients if you have large group > and/or netgroup maps. The group map gets 'walked' at login, and the netgroup > map gets walked because NIS+ doesn't have some of the lookups available that > some clients expect if you are using YP to access NIS+. Some of the gateways > (the two that Sun built, at least) would forward all requests for 'unknown' > entries directly to LDAP, so doing an 'ls' in a directory containing many > now-deleted users' files can be excrutiating. > > It's been a while since I tried it, so if anyone has recent experience with > how to get around these issues, I'd welcome an update! It's certainly > feasible to build a much better NIS+-to-LDAP gateway, I just have yet to see > one. AFAIK, the PADL converter is NIS (YP), not NIS+ (a very different > animal). > > - Richard > > > On 3/16/10 1:05 PM, Dustin Puryear wrote: > >> Anyone have experience with PADL's NIS/LDAP Gateway? We're migrating an >> existing NIS+ service to LDAP, and the client has expressed a need that >> has us favoring a very staged approach, and this tool could very well >> help with that. >> >> >> >> We would be migrating NIS+ (running on Sun) to Sun Directory. >> >> >> >> --- >> Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ >> >> Active Directory Integration : Web& Enterprise Single Sign-On >> Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies >> >> Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" >> http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From lists@ryanp.com Wed Mar 17 07:34:05 2010 Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.25]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2HEY4iv018289 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:34:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@ryanp.com) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 5so51675qwd.55 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.115.145 with SMTP id i17mr285544qaq.103.1268836443391; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sarge.tripadvisor.com ([146.115.38.3]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 23sm4729787qyk.15.2010.03.17.07.34.02 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Ryan Pugatch Message-ID: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:34:40 -0400 From: Ryan Pugatch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100301 Fedora/3.0.3-1.fc12 Lightning/1.0b2pre Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: rpug@linux.com List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:34:06 -0000 Hi all, Currently we have pages sent to our mobile phones via the email->SMS gateways provided by our carriers (i.e. ##########@tmomail.net/text.att.net etc). Unfortunately, it isn't always reliable. Sometimes our phone carriers decide that our pages are spam and drop the messages. I am interested in how others handle this. Thanks, Ryan From dredd@megacity.org Wed Mar 17 07:39:07 2010 Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2HEd717018397 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:39:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 797FD1F70026; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:39:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W1rhMaYWWXr2; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.123.139] (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D0FA41F70008; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:39:01 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:39:00 -0400 Message-Id: <832E895C-D7FC-4F07-93DA-7AEDF35D1554@megacity.org> References: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> To: rpug@linux.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2HEd717018397 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:39:08 -0000 On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:34 AM, Ryan Pugatch wrote: > Currently we have pages sent to our mobile phones via the email->SMS gateways provided by our carriers (i.e. ##########@tmomail.net/text.att.net etc). Unfortunately, it isn't always reliable. Sometimes our phone carriers decide that our pages are spam and drop the messages. > > I am interested in how others handle this. We've installed, at previous jobs, an SMS terminal in the server room. Basically it looks like a modem, has a SIM card, and we just use it to inject SMS messages into the network directly as opposed to using one of the gateways (which can also have an added problem if you're trying to, say, send a message which says "Edge Router Is Failed", because that will never reach the e-mail->SMS gateway until after you fix the problem). ISTR it was the "Siemens T65i" or some such that we used. Was a couple hundred bucks. D From dredd@megacity.org Wed Mar 17 08:02:49 2010 Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2HF2nPc018893 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:02:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7325E1F70026; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:02:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZddeWeVWPkap; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.123.139] (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CD2F31F70008; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:02:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Derek J. Balling" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:02:42 -0400 In-Reply-To: <832E895C-D7FC-4F07-93DA-7AEDF35D1554@megacity.org> To: rpug@linux.com, sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> <832E895C-D7FC-4F07-93DA-7AEDF35D1554@megacity.org> Message-Id: <16CC4EE7-5D73-4FA7-9B00-8D9B2FAC1479@megacity.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:02:49 -0000 On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:39 AM, Derek J. Balling wrote: > ISTR it was the "Siemens T65i" or some such that we used. Was a = couple hundred bucks. Siemens TC65T. :) I was close.= From jens@quux.de Wed Mar 17 08:21:16 2010 Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2HFLEbn019154 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:21:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: (qmail 4067 invoked by uid 0); 17 Mar 2010 16:21:08 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 4064, pid: 4065, t: 0.0964s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 17 Mar 2010 16:21:08 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Nrv3Q-0008Qs-00 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:21:04 +0100 From: Jens Link To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Organization: - References: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:21:04 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> (Ryan Pugatch's message of "Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:34:40 -0400") Message-ID: <87y6hr0yan.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:21:16 -0000 Ryan Pugatch writes: > Hi all, > > Currently we have pages sent to our mobile phones via the email->SMS > gateways provided by our carriers > (i.e. ##########@tmomail.net/text.att.net etc). Unfortunately, it isn't > always reliable. Sometimes our phone carriers decide that our pages are > spam and drop the messages. You can use a Modem (or an old cell phone) to send text messages directly. The other problem with text messages is that the transport by your mobile carrier doesn't work[1]. I know some company's where the support people have three or more phones (one for each big mobile carrier). Jens [1] we had that with t-mobile in Germany last year. I wouldn't have noticed but I was testing some SMS based authentication and didn't get my code. Well I got it late in the evening while having some beers in one of Nuremberg's nice beer gardens. ;-) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From felicity@kluge.net Wed Mar 17 09:23:20 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f42.google.com (mail-gw0-f42.google.com [74.125.83.42]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2HGNKEf020255 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:23:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from felicity@kluge.net) Received: by gwaa11 with SMTP id a11so504643gwa.1 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:23:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.74.8 with SMTP id w8mr1062108yba.269.1268842992760; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:23:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> References: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:23:12 -0400 Message-ID: From: Theo Van Dinter To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2HGNKEf020255 Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:23:21 -0000 In my most recent groups, we tend to lean towards too much notification is better than no notification, so most people do some combination (usually 3+) of: - email - pager - SMS - IRC - text to voice phone call (usually done on a delay to allow for an ack) There is probably also some kind of secondary-oncall or escalation if the first person doesn't ack the alert. Ideally they won't share all of the same notification methods/vendors so as to avoid a SPOF. On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 10:34 AM, Ryan Pugatch wrote: > Hi all, > > Currently we have pages sent to our mobile phones via the email->SMS > gateways provided by our carriers (i.e. ##########@tmomail.net/text.att.net > etc).  Unfortunately, it isn't always reliable.  Sometimes our phone > carriers decide that our pages are spam and drop the messages. > > I am interested in how others handle this. From drich@employees.org Wed Mar 17 09:54:28 2010 Received: from morpheus.lapseofthought.com (mail.lapseofthought.com [66.124.80.202]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2HGsR3d020959 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:54:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drich@employees.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (morpheus-ipv6.lapseofthought.com [IPv6:2001:470:8105:1::20]) (authenticated bits=0) by morpheus.lapseofthought.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o2HGsKbO066612 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:54:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drich@employees.org) Message-ID: <4BA1093C.9040400@employees.org> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:54:20 -0700 From: Daniel Rich User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (X11/20090609) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jens Link References: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> <87y6hr0yan.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> In-Reply-To: <87y6hr0yan.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=6.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.0 (2010-01-18) on morpheus.lapseofthought.com Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:54:28 -0000 Jens Link wrote: > Ryan Pugatch writes: > > >> Hi all, >> >> Currently we have pages sent to our mobile phones via the email->SMS >> gateways provided by our carriers >> (i.e. ##########@tmomail.net/text.att.net etc). Unfortunately, it isn't >> always reliable. Sometimes our phone carriers decide that our pages are >> spam and drop the messages. >> > > You can use a Modem (or an old cell phone) to send text messages > directly. The other problem with text messages is that the transport by > your mobile carrier doesn't work[1]. I know some company's where the > support people have three or more phones (one for each big mobile > carrier). > I'm finding that a lot of the carriers in the US are dropping support for TAP (the old modem protocol) and may not even have support for WCTP (a newer protocol). Some like AT&T only support it if you have an additional package on your phone. We are in the process of deploying an SMS appliance from MultiTech that will be able to send SMS messages directly to our phones, so it will be as reliable as SMS (how reliable that is depends on your carrier and your devices). The only thing that I don't like about it is that it is a network device, not directly attached to our monitoring server. So if the switch it is connected to goes down we won't be able to send messages. The one thing I miss about TAP is that it nearly *always* worked. If the server reported back that your message was received it nearly always was. I haven't had quite as much luck with SMS. Also, the old pagers worked nearly everywhere. I have a friend who works on submarines in Pearl Harbor, his pager works there even in places his cell phone doesn't. -- Dan Rich | http://www.employees.org/~drich/ | "Step up to red alert!" "Are you sure, sir? | It means changing the bulb in the sign..." | - Red Dwarf (BBC) From rskiadmin@chycoski.com Wed Mar 17 10:49:05 2010 Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2HHn5F9022027 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:49:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rskiadmin@chycoski.com) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhUFADayoEurR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACBRJlEc6FpmGqEdgSDGg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,658,1262563200"; d="scan'208,217";a="167805254" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2010 17:48:59 +0000 Received: from [171.71.86.69] (rac-ltest0.cisco.com [171.71.86.69]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o2HHmxRp010683; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:48:59 GMT Message-ID: <4BA11611.2030508@chycoski.com> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:49:05 -0700 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel Rich References: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> <87y6hr0yan.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <4BA1093C.9040400@employees.org> In-Reply-To: <4BA1093C.9040400@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:49:05 -0000 You could install a dedicated ethernet card and a crossover cable to just that device, if you think that would improve reliability. This would replicate the 'direct-serial-port' setup using a modem. Another option would be to have two of these devices on different switches on your network. At some point you need to make a decision about how much redundancy (and how it is implemented) is sufficient to get the appropriate number of 'nines'. I would tend to choose to use a pair of network-connected devices on separate switches, with replicated monitor servers, possibly with heartbeat between the two monitor servers. - Richard On 3/17/10 9:54 AM, Daniel Rich wrote: > Jens Link wrote: > >> > Ryan Pugatch writes: >> > >> > >> >>> >> Hi all, >>> >> >>> >> Currently we have pages sent to our mobile phones via the email->SMS >>> >> gateways provided by our carriers >>> >> (i.e. ##########@tmomail.net/text.att.net etc). Unfortunately, it isn't >>> >> always reliable. Sometimes our phone carriers decide that our pages are >>> >> spam and drop the messages. >>> >> >>> >> > >> > You can use a Modem (or an old cell phone) to send text messages >> > directly. The other problem with text messages is that the transport by >> > your mobile carrier doesn't work[1]. I know some company's where the >> > support people have three or more phones (one for each big mobile >> > carrier). >> > >> > I'm finding that a lot of the carriers in the US are dropping support > for TAP (the old modem protocol) and may not even have support for WCTP > (a newer protocol). Some like AT&T only support it if you have an > additional package on your phone. > > We are in the process of deploying an SMS appliance from MultiTech that > will be able to send SMS messages directly to our phones, so it will be > as reliable as SMS (how reliable that is depends on your carrier and > your devices). The only thing that I don't like about it is that it is > a network device, not directly attached to our monitoring server. So if > the switch it is connected to goes down we won't be able to send messages. > > The one thing I miss about TAP is that it nearly*always* worked. If > the server reported back that your message was received it nearly always > was. I haven't had quite as much luck with SMS. Also, the old pagers > worked nearly everywhere. I have a friend who works on submarines in > Pearl Harbor, his pager works there even in places his cell phone doesn't. > From asterr@pobox.com Wed Mar 17 12:33:00 2010 Received: from sasl.smtp.pobox.com (a-pb-sasl-quonix.pobox.com [208.72.237.25]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2HJWxNv024118 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:33:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asterr@pobox.com) Received: from sasl.smtp.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by a-pb-sasl-quonix.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E2D4A2246 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:32:59 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h=date:from:to :subject:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=sasl; bh=9YBrZk is/IslB5TWTvGmzlXebj8=; b=FrAT4wZGLG6c3uVyN6O9WHqIi8UCVL5pqmFfbP R0uo8mXLz3Ce9Bz33obFftT+NQYHAcViqNfzLVi+aUn6tDA0yYS/GtMYFI9Dj4+Z kd7lGNIxvPo3HY3f7C48bnu2SPVNPqIJCG1ctTl5v8bDpRlJ51+5IdWpt9rswcxE wCruU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=pobox.com; h=date:from:to :subject:message-id:mime-version:content-type; q=dns; s=sasl; b= mrBdbXBmDKcuuL0+pI2aWaQIsDLzdpgI9JNQMBBYIMFt6B55Y/2QJk03LvWupSES u5OSv26D3ktQIiqbffxl7kFXYpG+7wykXKhhJt8vo5GWS/eDUGTrhPU2UQ8Tn2RD dtFd6HAZJTon2z1awZBBk1F7/2GLto8s0hZ4VpQx7Qc= Received: from a-pb-sasl-quonix. (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by a-pb-sasl-quonix.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 122D5A2244 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:32:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from asterr001.dev.tradingscreen.com (unknown [74.89.213.81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by a-pb-sasl-quonix.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A9647A2242 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:32:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:32:55 -0700 (PDT) From: asterr X-X-Sender: asterr@zeus.socex.org To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Pobox-Relay-ID: E4C5A4A2-31FB-11DF-8069-D033EE7EF46B-78857419!a-pb-sasl-quonix.pobox.com Subject: [SAGE] Script framework for validating "correctness" of a server? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:33:00 -0000 I have been struggling with trying to automate a series of checks that we go through after building a server to make sure that we didn't forget anything. Many of these checks fall outside the realm of traditional configuration management tools like puppet and cfengine (did forward/reverse DNS get defined correctly?, are the switch port settings correct?, etc.) We know how to write the code that would perform individual checks. However, I am struggling with how to reliably run all of the checks and generate a sensible report. Does anyone know of a framework that would be suited to bundling a lot of check scripts into a single test run and generate a report? I am hoping to find something along the lines of what a developer would use to write and execute unit tests. Thank you, Aaron Sterr From joel.merrick@gmail.com Wed Mar 17 12:53:10 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f225.google.com (mail-fx0-f225.google.com [209.85.220.225]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2HJr9P1024509 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:53:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joel.merrick@gmail.com) Received: by fxm25 with SMTP id 25so978511fxm.7 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:53:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=BMDzujTvWKbhj3riFe2aarojP3eAYpUl9Kh+4tJQNRE=; b=nZuxty9qGWGVJIXjEUg2YmW4oW2W7t/wA7jsQogz4vVgNuGcRP6KZ3qrccepjgocaM SG9SDoqDqAnTT5Buf5YDib0CC6qkRNWuWuOY8M1CQzEmM6VVzPhhMjELQ+lZMxoqnysy 3tJvtSiN8xzN99piPs55Mlv8qTh99pg7Krn1c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=sdQ51SzCpBE4dYYS5Lcf4yz9NouHwe5EquX7V9yQJ3YeUSVo4l/toxHdk0FK6hwR9n aPp54ciI3uFDQwgWzKURqAB6cUgbr+VAFxfrz1ptptCAJU9xkHF2sd6tZ18R7agmxMIe tMujkDmWqrboDejKKMSa7+VhiDCRnmH+2Ej2k= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.169.136 with SMTP id o8mr79103hbe.186.1268855583449; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:53:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:53:03 +0000 Message-ID: <543a57a81003171253t3af85c7w8dfcc6941f4f6aae@mail.gmail.com> From: Joel Merrick To: asterr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2HJr9P1024509 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Script framework for validating "correctness" of a server? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:53:10 -0000 On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 7:32 PM, asterr wrote: > I have been struggling with trying to automate a series of checks that we go > through after building a server to make sure that we didn't forget anything. > > Many of these checks fall outside the realm of traditional configuration > management tools like puppet and cfengine (did forward/reverse DNS get > defined correctly?, are the switch port settings correct?, etc.) > > We know how to write the code that would perform individual checks.  However, > I am struggling with how to reliably run all of the checks and generate a > sensible report. Cucumber is probably the right thing for this kind of task if ruby is your thing. There's bindings for nagios too, which is nice It's something I've been trying to get to grips with also, so would be interested in other routes.. > > Does anyone know of a framework that would be suited to bundling a lot of > check scripts into a single test run and generate a report?  I am hoping to > find something along the lines of what a developer would use to write and > execute unit tests. > > Thank you, > Aaron Sterr > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- $ echo "kpfmAdpoofdufevq/dp/vl" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1)-1)/ge' From djmitche@gmail.com Wed Mar 17 12:55:23 2010 Received: from mail-bw0-f210.google.com (mail-bw0-f210.google.com [209.85.218.210]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2HJtLKS024583 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:55:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djmitche@gmail.com) Received: by bwz2 with SMTP id 2so1474043bwz.30 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:55:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=jKXYszL99T/yaj4HdyY36WSmqkC98upY1u/KF3eA4tU=; b=JCJ6bl+aFNQiS2A0SpAi4/m2kgLwyzw9++H3T+y6Xjt0pJKuU45uD4Gcx8n8SNTQ7Y YEhZHldeo95Bvs7/U6Gpj/QthgOsbCsvfJ3+Auqne2g8cnH23IYe4X0kmK1B3qPR/MZ7 xaJByvwNkn2vN6YHv44laZMbD6JKQ24ak79kI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=G0gKVXTxK33tj29R+djXZ46TirnB/+s3sa/D8YQ4rSh7pKlq0Q9+faPRBmS5/XxTUw 9kamreHAg44xsGG4YVHiCjQ+FKE7l/T40kQSEWENL3QgAJfCIvlTm6nhcbh+pYIuc1Zx m+xiBRdVsXl6eH2LnuO44xhkf1JSRerYXoUP0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: djmitche@gmail.com Received: by 10.204.4.139 with SMTP id 11mr1495291bkr.27.1268855715414; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:55:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:55:15 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 70eab8ffa6501003 Message-ID: <42338fbf1003171255q3401fb12t5951023b75991e74@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dustin J. Mitchell" To: asterr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Script framework for validating "correctness" of a server? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:55:23 -0000 (apologies to asterr; I forgot to copy the list the first time) On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 2:32 PM, asterr wrote: > Many of these checks fall outside the realm of traditional configuration > management tools like puppet and cfengine (did forward/reverse DNS get > defined correctly?, are the switch port settings correct?, etc.) Actually, we *do* check forward/reverse DNS with cfengine. As long as the checks are sufficiently lightweight, I think it makes sense to run them regularly (daily? hourly? whatever suits you). Then if the DNS that worked *fine* the day you installed it craps out the next day, you'll be properly informed. As for the unit tests, I'm a big fan of perl's plain-vanilla test sytem, TAP. For example, here's the output of one of Amanda's checks: 1..4 ok 1 - amdump runs successfully ok 2 - amdump fails with nonexistent client ok 3 - amdump fails in validate_optstr ok 4 - planner fail without 'client custom compression with no compression program specified' The first line gives the "plan" -- how many tests should run -- and then each subsequent line says "ok NN" or "not ok NN" with some descriptive text. There are some extra fancinesses (diagnostic output starts with #, you can skip tests or mark them TODO), but it's all pretty straightforward. If you've got the perl skills, you could just use Test::More and Test::Harness directly. But if not, you could easily write shell scripts to produce this kind of output, and then bundle them all together with a simple perl -e 'use Test::Harness qw(&runtests); runtests(sort @ARGV);' *.test which will format them up nicely. An example output from Amanda's tests is here: http://code.v.igoro.us/archives/40-Whats-New-in-Amanda-Automated-Tests.html Docs: http://perldoc.perl.org/Test/More.html http://perldoc.perl.org/Test/Harness.html As a reminder, in Perl TMTOWTDI, so you can stop once you've found *one* way to do it. Otherwise, you'll find Perl has very deep rabbit holes. Dustin -- Open Source Storage Engineer http://www.zmanda.com From aardvark@saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com Wed Mar 17 13:02:03 2010 Received: from smtp-relay1.uniserve.ca (smtp-relay1j.uniserve.ca [216.210.109.128]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2HK22Bb024714 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:02:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aardvark@saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com) Received: from [65.38.42.251] (helo=thornhill.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com) by smtp-relay1.uniserve.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NrzRJ-0001y0-OF; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:02:01 -0700 Received: by thornhill.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 696D43A74A; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:02:01 -0700 From: Hugh Brown Sender: Hugh Brown To: Ryan Pugatch Message-ID: <20100317200201.GE23983@thornhill.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com> References: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AbQceqfdZEv+FvjW" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-Sender-Info: aardvark@saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com X-Scanner: OK. Scanned. X-Uniserve-Spam-Score: 0.1 1 (/) X-Uniserve-Spam-Report: Content analysis details: (0.1 points) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.1 RDNS_NONE Delivered to trusted network by a host with no rDNS Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:02:03 -0000 --AbQceqfdZEv+FvjW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Ryan Pugatch disturbed my sleep to write: > Hi all, > > Currently we have pages sent to our mobile phones via the email->SMS > gateways provided by our carriers (i.e. > ##########@tmomail.net/text.att.net etc). Unfortunately, it isn't > always reliable. Sometimes our phone carriers decide that our pages are > spam and drop the messages. > > I am interested in how others handle this. I do email-to-SMS too, and I've had the same problem recently. I've got around that by having two instances of Nagios on different chunks of network at the university where I work; each watches a certain number of services at the other end, along with all the local services. This gives me a 2x (say) chance of an SMS getting through, but it also helps deal with local-to-the-machine-room problems (which is my bigger concern). (If the university's internet connection goes down, it's above my budget to fix. :-) At my previous job, at another department here, I was able to put a Nagios server at another university across town. Any chance you can do an exchange of monitoring with someone? What about asking your carrier to whitelist the sending address? My phone carrier has outsourced their email-to-SMS service to another company, which offers whitelisting; after a bit of pestering, I was able to persuade them to enable it for me. Thanks, Hugh -- Hugh Brown http://saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com Because the plural of Anecdote is Myth. --AbQceqfdZEv+FvjW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkuhNTkACgkQcljl8kcFyce0GQCgkq4V7sYjSe2vKTWPEnabrvSn bo0An2zzrtMZJLyrQc6pxsPwHIeJLrPn =NPh3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AbQceqfdZEv+FvjW-- From lists@ryanp.com Wed Mar 17 13:23:31 2010 Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.155]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2HKNUut025119 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:23:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@ryanp.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e21so695735fga.13 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.103.87.2 with SMTP id p2mr8433456mul.7.1268857409620; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sarge.tripadvisor.com ([146.115.38.3]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y6sm35168035mug.20.2010.03.17.13.23.28 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Ryan Pugatch Message-ID: <4BA13A67.5050504@linux.com> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:24:07 -0400 From: Ryan Pugatch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100301 Fedora/3.0.3-1.fc12 Lightning/1.0b2pre Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hugh Brown References: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> <20100317200201.GE23983@thornhill.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com> In-Reply-To: <20100317200201.GE23983@thornhill.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: rpug@linux.com List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:23:32 -0000 > I do email-to-SMS too, and I've had the same problem recently. I've > got around that by having two instances of Nagios on different chunks > of network at the university where I work; each watches a certain > number of services at the other end, along with all the local > services. This gives me a 2x (say) chance of an SMS getting through, > but it also helps deal with local-to-the-machine-room problems (which > is my bigger concern). (If the university's internet connection goes > down, it's above my budget to fix. :-) > > At my previous job, at another department here, I was able to put a > Nagios server at another university across town. Any chance you can > do an exchange of monitoring with someone? > > What about asking your carrier to whitelist the sending address? My > phone carrier has outsourced their email-to-SMS service to another > company, which offers whitelisting; after a bit of pestering, I was > able to persuade them to enable it for me. > > Thanks, > Hugh > Most of the things we are monitoring aren't accessible externally. My team has a few different carriers and usually dealing with the carrier to figure out the problem is a headache. I don't want to rely on them to whitelist my address. Ryan From fief@fief.org Wed Mar 17 13:39:20 2010 Received: from delta.monkeycosm.net (delta.monkeycosm.net [216.218.230.78]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2HKdKYa025323 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:39:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fief@fief.org) Received: from delta.monkeycosm.net (delta [127.0.0.1]) by delta.monkeycosm.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o2HKe8Dw015699 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:40:08 -0700 Received: (from apache@localhost) by delta.monkeycosm.net (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id o2HKe8Jb015698; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:40:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: delta.monkeycosm.net: apache set sender to fief@fief.org using -f Received: from dsl081-057-164.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net (dsl081-057-164.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.57.164]) by delta.monkeycosm.net (Horde Framework) with HTTP; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:40:08 -0700 Message-ID: <20100317134008.12312knrmrbrwfmw@delta.monkeycosm.net> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:40:08 -0700 From: fief@fief.org To: rpug@linux.com References: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> In-Reply-To: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.3.5) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (delta.monkeycosm.net [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:40:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.1 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on delta.monkeycosm.net Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:39:20 -0000 Quoting Ryan Pugatch : > Currently we have pages sent to our mobile phones via the email->SMS > gateways provided by our carriers (i.e. > ##########@tmomail.net/text.att.net etc). Unfortunately, it isn't > always reliable. Sometimes our phone carriers decide that our pages > are spam and drop the messages. I solved a problem with pre-paid cellphones being flaky by using http://www.pagerduty.com/ Monitoring systems send email alerts to special addresses you setup and Pagerduty translate those messages into alerts that cause people to be be bothered by email, sms, or text to speech phone calls. I have been using the system for less than a month but have been quite happy with it. -- Brian De Smet From prvs=069342c350=phil.pennock@globnix.org Wed Mar 17 18:00:17 2010 Received: from mx.spodhuis.org (redoubt.spodhuis.org [94.142.241.89]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2I10GYK030271 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:00:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from prvs=069342c350=phil.pennock@globnix.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=globnix.org; s=d200912; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=GJXj4oAfeIK7+8kgC/L+F1BjZNTP03g8QU7EGFwD78Q=; b=XNwT2geYWgUxkbDgQg8Jcjba+a97PiAznLhF83TgNsSI/0xGUoaXqu4VDLBYign+/jyOCxns7FBqdgkZjXJtzoOqiTpnmdiL9wPyyXyAGGLriTPzY5SqINnSU2fJEuV2TQmjAEtVjm873d174yUqDWwobdILkxUoYDtwdmIvOQg=; Received: by smtp.spodhuis.org with local id 1Ns45r-0003D9-Or; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:00:11 +0000 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:00:11 -0700 From: Phil Pennock To: fief@fief.org Message-ID: <20100318010011.GA11176@redoubt.spodhuis.org> References: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> <20100317134008.12312knrmrbrwfmw@delta.monkeycosm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100317134008.12312knrmrbrwfmw@delta.monkeycosm.net> Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:00:18 -0000 On 2010-03-17 at 13:40 -0700, fief@fief.org wrote: > I solved a problem with pre-paid cellphones being flaky by using > http://www.pagerduty.com/ > I have been using the system for less than a month but have been quite > happy with it. $employer has in-house systems, so I asked a colleague who works elsewhere with less of a not-invented-here issue. They evaluated Pager Duty and found it to be "really flakey", so are currently using directinc.com to have humans call them. Not necessarily humans who are good at reading acronym-laden messages and they're still not entirely happy, but it works "better". And silencing alerts is easy when the method is to say to a human, "Please don't send me any more alerts containing apache for 30 minutes." Pager Duty might have improved, I really don't know. My general thought is that while email-to-escalation-service is fairly common and can work if you have dedicated MTAs for those pathways, once you move those escalation systems away from the local networks where your servers are you need to think really carefully about which single-points-of-failure are between you and the pager escalation system. * DNS, one domain? * Expiry; registrar issues; DNS server issues; zonefile glitches * Using two separate domains for routing mail would get rid of several SPOFs here; .com and .net from separate registrars with separate expiry dates and policies to ensure that changes prove themselves on one before making it to the other. If you send email to two recipient addresses and they're both received, the systems should be able to de-dup on Message-Id: header. * MX resilience? * Separate netblocks? * Separate ASes from different vendors so that default-free routing disputes don't cut your systems off from your escalation system? * Which systems are you sending mail through? Are they systems you're monitoring? * Your own uplinks -- perhaps part of what you want to monitor? * Spoofability of alerts? What is your threat model for other entities wishing to cause you problems? Do you worry about espionage and having knowledge of internal architecture be exposed to third parties? Against that, I like the *idea* of having specialists in contract negotiation with telcos working on getting reliable message delivery to SMS and pagers, with people dedicated to just making that work instead of it being just another task on the todo list. Should be able to end up with a really nice system for configurable escalation, aggregation and silencing, at least. $ dig -t mx \*.pagerduty.com That at least is somewhat reassuring (both MX and NS) -Phil From djmitche@gmail.com Wed Mar 17 19:10:27 2010 Received: from mail-bw0-f210.google.com (mail-bw0-f210.google.com [209.85.218.210]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2I2AQbi031583 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:10:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djmitche@gmail.com) Received: by bwz2 with SMTP id 2so1773967bwz.30 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:10:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Ic9M1/C5sSoOErjSdjlQPKVcgp23tdIDyeTPdsIIRew=; b=NwPe7JIH8Vc7JuS6hOpQxwkI/1Vu45Hza2cgfKjZtYmZnDricILrM2VfZJpMOywxMY YbnNEIpzZDAGCSH0YBjRrb5lwG6S/qKNvrvhSP28Ngp/5fVLFRk2s01EyTPm1Xkm0dPo 80rcGujZL4UcOV8cJIukHDQ3tdyrdPmJW5Boc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=vwKfzQa++6EQrn5W67otWBpipwDwmGNYE2LNNv+y4L3ijwwnGRBuldV5VPCjN416rG fQWc4oQcdhkPe9cs8SrCCiPyLX8T1dXtrFqTePzDbCYbXho0kRB02Mwb0z9q7PPkD44J OgxR3vZTvdJKSHd2p2CLq9OuCCjL1qZPVuTfA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: djmitche@gmail.com Received: by 10.204.34.206 with SMTP id m14mr451883bkd.14.1268878220949; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:10:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100318010011.GA11176@redoubt.spodhuis.org> References: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> <20100317134008.12312knrmrbrwfmw@delta.monkeycosm.net> <20100318010011.GA11176@redoubt.spodhuis.org> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:10:20 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0608c795cab969e9 Message-ID: <42338fbf1003171910x21afd416l4099044f8cfd3fab@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dustin J. Mitchell" To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 02:10:28 -0000 It occurs to me that all of these cases have the wrong failure mode: if something goes wrong, try to deliver a message. You can put as much energy as you want into ensuring that the message is still delivered if X is broken, or if X and Y are broken, or X and Y and Z.. But as the banking crisis has taught us, breakage is far better-correlated than we like to pretend. So why do it the other way around? Why not get a page when your monitoring system (or *both* monitoring systems, or two out of three) does not report a "good" status during some short duration? Are there commercial services offering this kind of monitoring? Dustin -- Open Source Storage Engineer http://www.zmanda.com From treed@copilotco.com Wed Mar 17 20:21:08 2010 Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2I3L83j033088 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:21:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 5839D64C91; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:21:56 -0700 From: Tracy Reed To: "Dustin J. Mitchell" Message-ID: <20100318032155.GC16765@tracyreed.org> References: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> <20100317134008.12312knrmrbrwfmw@delta.monkeycosm.net> <20100318010011.GA11176@redoubt.spodhuis.org> <42338fbf1003171910x21afd416l4099044f8cfd3fab@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TN6tpTzbxVxIV0OU" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42338fbf1003171910x21afd416l4099044f8cfd3fab@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 03:21:09 -0000 --TN6tpTzbxVxIV0OU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 09:10:20PM -0500, Dustin J. Mitchell spake thusly: > So why do it the other way around? Why not get a page when your > monitoring system (or *both* monitoring systems, or two out of three) > does not report a "good" status during some short duration? We have two Nagios monitoring systems: One on-site behind the firewall monitoring all of our important stuff. A second one off-site in another location completely independent of the first (a linode box in another state, actually) monitoring everything externally visible AND receiving nagios passive checks via nsca from the internal server every 5 minutes with a nagios freshness time of 6 minutes. If it ever checks in with a critical status or fails to check in within 6 minutes we get paged. Very simple and hasn't failed us yet. The only issue has been a couple times when there were connectivity issues between the sites and we got pages. But that wasn't necessarily a false positive because there was a connectivity issue which might have been seen by some of our customers. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --TN6tpTzbxVxIV0OU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLoZxT9PIYKZYVAq0RAu7rAJ0QNkLSbpdF9zw9hJQOmvYoncjSKgCfcyYT 5BC71T3TwNrMpfwrilnJ1W0= =qpTQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TN6tpTzbxVxIV0OU-- From allbery@ece.cmu.edu Wed Mar 17 21:07:21 2010 Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu (BACHE.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.129.23]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2I47LbV034354 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:07:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) Received: from mress.kf8nh.com (static-72-77-17-40.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net [72.77.17.40]) (Authenticated sender: allbery@ECE.CMU.EDU) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B68B1; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 00:07:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <85F07E52-7933-423A-AFA4-F30D0C467BCA@ece.cmu.edu> From: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" To: "Dustin J. Mitchell" In-Reply-To: <42338fbf1003171910x21afd416l4099044f8cfd3fab@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-268-667736370" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 00:07:08 -0400 References: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> <20100317134008.12312knrmrbrwfmw@delta.monkeycosm.net> <20100318010011.GA11176@redoubt.spodhuis.org> <42338fbf1003171910x21afd416l4099044f8cfd3fab@mail.gmail.com> X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.0 (v56) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:07:22 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-268-667736370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 17, 2010, at 22:10 , Dustin J. Mitchell wrote: > So why do it the other way around? Why not get a page when your > monitoring system (or *both* monitoring systems, or two out of three) > does not report a "good" status during some short duration? Reasonable monitoring systems allow you to throw an exception (and page) if there is no response in a given amount of time. Since our monitoring is all active (and connecting to the system successfully is itself a test, not only of "is it up?" but also "is Kerberos working for this machine?") I haven't set that up here. There is of course detecting that the monitoring system itself has gone south; that's what a separate monitor just for that on some other machine is for. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH --Apple-Mail-268-667736370 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkuhpvYACgkQIn7hlCsL25XIQQCfbGpf9dwuIB/9m52bqdkrRsTM FUgAn1TKsyleD9Q0tvXTTa6zSn238qng =ez1Z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-268-667736370-- From geer@tinho.net Thu Mar 18 06:20:19 2010 Received: from absinthe.tinho.net (absinthe.tinho.net [166.84.5.228]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2IDKIDh049178 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 06:20:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from geer@tinho.net) Received: by absinthe.tinho.net (Postfix, from userid 126) id B013F33EED; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:20:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from absinthe.tinho.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by absinthe.tinho.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE4DB33E63 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:20:12 -0400 (EDT) From: dan@geer.org To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:40:08 PDT." <20100317134008.12312knrmrbrwfmw@delta.monkeycosm.net> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:20:12 -0400 Sender: geer@tinho.net Message-Id: <20100318132012.B013F33EED@absinthe.tinho.net> Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 13:20:19 -0000 slightly derailing, but I'd like a one-way pager and would be happy to take recommendations on what to get and whose network to subscribe to, etc. on-list or off-, as you prefer. --dan From shrdlu@deaddrop.org Thu Mar 18 07:07:10 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2IE79FN050401 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:07:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shrdlu@deaddrop.org) Received: from relay00.pair.com (relay00.pair.com [209.68.5.9]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id o2IE76aC029455 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 66539 invoked by uid 0); 18 Mar 2010 14:07:04 -0000 Received: from 66.119.212.42 (HELO ?66.119.212.42?) (66.119.212.42) by relay00.pair.com with SMTP; 18 Mar 2010 14:07:04 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 66.119.212.42 Message-ID: <4BA233D0.2080205@deaddrop.org> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:08:16 -0700 From: Shrdlu Organization: dig @localhost TXT CHAOS version.bind User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.11) Gecko/20050728 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members References: <20100318132012.B013F33EED@absinthe.tinho.net> In-Reply-To: <20100318132012.B013F33EED@absinthe.tinho.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=2% Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 14:07:10 -0000 dan@geer.org wrote: > slightly derailing, but I'd like a one-way pager > and would be happy to take recommendations on > what to get and whose network to subscribe to, > etc. on-list or off-, as you prefer. It's early for me, but this had good reviews on a forum I'm on. http://order.pageplusus.com/Motorola-LS550-Numeric-Pager.html?ref=base -- Social networking site users are not the site's customers. They are the site's product. This product is sold to advertisers and data-miners. From doug@will.to Thu Mar 18 07:24:29 2010 Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2IEOS8a050847 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:24:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from [75.193.7.106] (106.sub-75-193-7.myvzw.com [75.193.7.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id o2IEOKdT006975 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:24:23 -0400 Message-ID: <4BA2379A.6050005@will.to> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:24:26 -0400 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dan@geer.org References: <20100318132012.B013F33EED@absinthe.tinho.net> In-Reply-To: <20100318132012.B013F33EED@absinthe.tinho.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 14:24:29 -0000 dan@geer.org wrote: > slightly derailing, but I'd like a one-way pager > and would be happy to take recommendations on > what to get and whose network to subscribe to, > etc. on-list or off-, as you prefer. > > You can get Iridium satellite pagers that will receive anywhere in the world, if that's what you're looking for. This may be the only truly 1-way pager system left right now. The prices are somewhat high, I think on the order of $75/mo, but it works. We have an employee who has one because he lives in an area where cell phone reception is very poor, often non-existant. From lists@ryanp.com Thu Mar 18 07:26:24 2010 Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.159]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2IEQMp5050901 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:26:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@ryanp.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so362804fga.13 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.87.63.20 with SMTP id q20mr5846030fgk.27.1268922378206; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sarge.tripadvisor.com ([146.115.38.3]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l19sm3412430fgb.23.2010.03.18.07.26.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Ryan Pugatch Message-ID: <4BA2382F.1040204@linux.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:26:55 -0400 From: Ryan Pugatch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100301 Fedora/3.0.3-1.fc12 Lightning/1.0b2pre Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org, bblisa@bblisa.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SAGE] A summary: emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: rpug@linux.com List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 14:26:24 -0000 Here is a summary of solutions mentioned in response to my posting to BBLISA and SAGE: - Dean Anderson mentions this article: http://www.linuxjournal.com/files/linuxjournal.com/ufiles/LJ191_UsingSMSforNagios.pdf which involves using an SMS device to interface with Nagios. The MultiTech device in the article is mentioned by Daniel Rich. - Lukas Karlsson uses QuickPage - http://www.qpage.org/ with a modem and POTS line. There were a few others suggesting qpage as well. - Derek Balling suggests the Siemens TC65T - several others recommend using an old cell phone or modem to send the texts directly. - Jens Link and Daniel Rich mentioned the decreasing lack of support for TAP (and also lack of support for WCTP) - Several suggestions about having multiple types of notification in case one fails. - Brian de Smet suggests www.pagerduty.com but Phil Pennock said his colleague had encountered some trouble with them. - A couple of people mentioned that AT&T has an enterprise paging option that gives you an SLA for your texts. http://enterprisepaging.com/faq.jsp I hope I didn't miss any of the suggestions. I think the route I am going to go is to grab a MultiTech iSMS and put it on to AT&T with an enterprise paging plan. Then I can have big brother use the API to send messages. Thanks all for your suggestions. Ryan From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Mar 18 07:46:40 2010 Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2IEkdGO051340 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:46:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o2IEkt3S020304; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:46:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:46:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42035.207.61.230.154.1268923615.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <4BA2379A.6050005@will.to> References: <20100318132012.B013F33EED@absinthe.tinho.net> <4BA2379A.6050005@will.to> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:46:55 -0400 (EDT) From: "David Magda" To: "Doug Hughes" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 14:46:40 -0000 On Thu, March 18, 2010 10:24, Doug Hughes wrote: > You can get Iridium satellite pagers that will receive anywhere in the > world, if that's what you're looking for. This may be the only truly > 1-way pager system left right now. The prices are somewhat high, I think > on the order of $75/mo, but it works. We have an employee who has one > because he lives in an area where cell phone reception is very poor, > often non-existant. Canadian telcos still offer the service: http://www.bell.ca/shopping/PrsShpWls_Pagers.page http://your.rogers.com/store/wireless/products/pagers/overview.asp Telus Mobility doesn't have an accessible URL that I could find. A quick search show AT&T and Verizon still offer them as well. It may not be world-wide, but I'd probably trust a pager signal more than an SMS, especially as the date changes from December 31 to January 1. I used to work at a voice mail provider, and the system stats (as measured by Solaris' various *stat programs) at 00:00 New Year's Day went from near-zero to very-high quite quickly (and were 'pegged' for a few hours). :) From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Mar 18 07:58:33 2010 Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2IEwVP4051685 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:58:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o2IEwmQU021150 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <32850.207.61.230.154.1268924328.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <4BA2382F.1040204@linux.com> References: <4BA2382F.1040204@linux.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:58:48 -0400 (EDT) From: "David Magda" To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] A summary: emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 14:58:34 -0000 On Thu, March 18, 2010 10:26, Ryan Pugatch wrote: > I think the route I am going to go is to grab a MultiTech iSMS and put > it on to AT&T with an enterprise paging plan. Then I can have big > brother use the API to send messages. Does anyone use a system that makes you acknowledge alerts? I'm at a fairly big company that has a NOC, and if they can't reach the first person on the chain after a certain period of time, they escalate to the manager, director, etc. until they reach someone. With smaller organizations though, how do people do escalations (assuming that they do)? Would you text back to an SMS? Log into the monitoring system (or reply to the alert e-mail) to prevent the next level up (I think Nagios can do this)? There are even HOWTOs to combine Nagios and Asterisk so that you can "press 1 to hear the problem, press 2 to acknowledge, etc." after dialing a number. From dkap@haven.org Thu Mar 18 08:23:27 2010 Received: from vms173013pub.verizon.net (vms173013pub.verizon.net [206.46.173.13]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2IFNRjC052611 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:23:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkap@haven.org) Received: from mailhost.haven.org ([unknown] [98.110.171.21]) by vms173013.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.02 32bit (built Apr 16 2009)) with ESMTPA id <0KZH00G8BHHLPYG5@vms173013.mailsrvcs.net> for sage-members@mailman.sage.org; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:24:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 206.83.81.179.ptr.us.xo.net ([206.83.81.179] helo=[10.70.25.30]) by mailhost.haven.org with esmtpsa (Exim with SSLv3:AES256-SHA:256) id 1NsHYq-0008Og-7N; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:23:02 -0400 From: Internaut at Large To: rpug@linux.com In-reply-to: <4BA2382F.1040204@linux.com> References: <4BA2382F.1040204@linux.com> Content-type: text/plain Organization: Haven Writers' Guild Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:22:54 -0400 Message-id: <1268925774.9141.27.camel@hedgehog.wardrobe.irobot.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.22.3.1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: dkap@haven.org X-Spam_score_int: -5 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:30:46 -0700 Cc: bblisa@bblisa.org, sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] [BBLISA] A summary: emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: dkap@mailhost.haven.org List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:23:28 -0000 Greetings, Something occurred to me in reading this. Is there any reason why we can't use text-to-speech? I mean, have Nagios call phones, and read the error, or play a pre-recorded error message over the voice-line, and listen for a response? ("Hit 1 to acknowledge you are on the problem, Hang up, or hit 2 to pass this on to the next person in the tree." or the like.) Especially with VoIP so common nowadays ... Just thinking of the future, -dkap On Thu, 2010-03-18 at 10:26 -0400, Ryan Pugatch wrote: > Here is a summary of solutions mentioned in response to my posting to > BBLISA and SAGE: > > - Dean Anderson mentions this article: > http://www.linuxjournal.com/files/linuxjournal.com/ufiles/LJ191_UsingSMSforNagios.pdf > which involves using an SMS device to interface with Nagios. The > MultiTech device in the article is mentioned by Daniel Rich. > > - Lukas Karlsson uses QuickPage - http://www.qpage.org/ with a modem and > POTS line. There were a few others suggesting qpage as well. > > - Derek Balling suggests the Siemens TC65T - several others recommend > using an old cell phone or modem to send the texts directly. > > - Jens Link and Daniel Rich mentioned the decreasing lack of support for > TAP (and also lack of support for WCTP) > > - Several suggestions about having multiple types of notification in > case one fails. > > - Brian de Smet suggests www.pagerduty.com but Phil Pennock said his > colleague had encountered some trouble with them. > > - A couple of people mentioned that AT&T has an enterprise paging option > that gives you an SLA for your texts. http://enterprisepaging.com/faq.jsp > > > I hope I didn't miss any of the suggestions. > > I think the route I am going to go is to grab a MultiTech iSMS and put > it on to AT&T with an enterprise paging plan. Then I can have big > brother use the API to send messages. > > > Thanks all for your suggestions. > > Ryan > > _______________________________________________ > bblisa mailing list > bblisa@bblisa.org > http://www.bblisa.org/mailman/listinfo/bblisa From levins@westnet.com Thu Mar 18 08:31:13 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2IFVDeq052901 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:31:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from levins@westnet.com) Received: from westnet.com (root@westnet.com [216.187.52.2]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2IFV9Cq001717 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from westnet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id o2IFV9cL015180 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (levins@localhost) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.13.2/Submit) with ESMTP id o2IFV8qE015170 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:31:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam Levin To: SAGE mailing list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: [SAGE] hp-ux SAN disk question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:31:13 -0000 I've got a question from our Oracle folks that involves HP-UX, on which I have almost no experience. I'm the storage guy. :) We're doing some Oracle 11g RAC testing. We have two HP-UX servers running 11i v3 patched as of this month. On our SAN, I created 15 LUNs for them and mapped the LUNs to each of the two servers. I mapped them in exactly the same way, in the same order (it happens to be from an IBM SVC virtualization appliance, so I forced the SCSI id's to be the same order starting at 0 for both systems). One of the HP boxes has its three root drive partitions mirrored, the other does not. All other disks besides those three are SAN disks -- those three are local. The disk devices (/dev/rdisk/disk##) do not match up. We'd like them to match up. Can anyone explain why the disk device names don't match up, and if there's a way to get them to match up? They appear to be off by 3 (/dev/rdisk/disk74 on one system is /dev/rdisk/disk77 on the other). Thanks, -Adam From dredd@megacity.org Thu Mar 18 08:43:48 2010 Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2IFhmG4053293 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:43:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5003D1F70026; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:43:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lzL+jSpCvTl3; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:43:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from davidrou-nb.atomant.net (unknown [66.9.234.201]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 545151F70008; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:43:42 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: <4BA2382F.1040204@linux.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:43:39 -0400 Message-Id: References: <4BA2382F.1040204@linux.com> To: rpug@linux.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2IFhmG4053293 Cc: bblisa@bblisa.org, sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] A summary: emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:43:49 -0000 On Mar 18, 2010, at 10:26 AM, Ryan Pugatch wrote: > - Lukas Karlsson uses QuickPage - http://www.qpage.org/ with a modem and POTS line. There were a few others suggesting qpage as well. One caveat on qpage... it hasn't been maintained in YEARS. if you run into any sort of problems with it, the developer is semi-unresponsive (at least, he was hard to get ahold of when I was deploying it ten years ago, and there's no indication on the site that it's been maintained or kept up in any way since then). The program itself is already fairly stable and not in need of constant development, but just... if you encounter a bug or an issue, ... "fair warning". D From drich@employees.org Thu Mar 18 08:48:17 2010 Received: from morpheus.lapseofthought.com (mail.lapseofthought.com [66.124.80.202]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2IFmGXN053453 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:48:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drich@employees.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (morpheus-ipv6.lapseofthought.com [IPv6:2001:470:8105:1::20]) (authenticated bits=0) by morpheus.lapseofthought.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o2IFm0lp045012 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:48:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drich@employees.org) Message-ID: <4BA24B2D.5070308@employees.org> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:47:57 -0700 From: Daniel Rich User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (X11/20090609) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Magda References: <4BA2382F.1040204@linux.com> <32850.207.61.230.154.1268924328.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <32850.207.61.230.154.1268924328.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigBF1B56E0984B855483BB0AAA" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=6.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.0 (2010-01-18) on morpheus.lapseofthought.com Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] A summary: emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:48:17 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigBF1B56E0984B855483BB0AAA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Magda wrote: > On Thu, March 18, 2010 10:26, Ryan Pugatch wrote: > > =20 >> I think the route I am going to go is to grab a MultiTech iSMS and put= >> it on to AT&T with an enterprise paging plan. Then I can have big >> brother use the API to send messages. >> =20 > > Does anyone use a system that makes you acknowledge alerts? > > I'm at a fairly big company that has a NOC, and if they can't reach the= > first person on the chain after a certain period of time, they escalate= to > the manager, director, etc. until they reach someone. > > With smaller organizations though, how do people do escalations (assumi= ng > that they do)? Would you text back to an SMS? Log into the monitoring > system (or reply to the alert e-mail) to prevent the next level up (I > think Nagios can do this)? > > There are even HOWTOs to combine Nagios and Asterisk so that you can > "press 1 to hear the problem, press 2 to acknowledge, etc." after diali= ng > a number. > =20 Take a look at the article in the March issue of Linux Journal: http://www.linuxjournal.com/magazine/using-sms-server-provide-robust-aler= ting-service-nagios, it talks about using Nagios with an SMS gateway to send and acknowledge alerts. Nagios can also handle escalations, while we don't have it set up to escalate to management, we do have it configured to open tickets in our ticketing system if alerts go unacknowledged for over 4 hours and to auto-acknowledge the alert with the ticket number. --=20 Dan Rich | http://www.employees.org/~drich/ | "Step up to red alert!" "Are you sure,= sir? | It means changing the bulb in the sign= =2E.." | - Red Dwarf (BBC) --------------enigBF1B56E0984B855483BB0AAA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iD8DBQFLokswIYJ5xMxu09kRAvXkAKCcyUzNO6/YhWRdFTi/6oyqSse+qgCgo/4f S4CmpcqvCPfjQc51Pu1Km7Q= =3CZQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigBF1B56E0984B855483BB0AAA-- From drich@employees.org Thu Mar 18 08:54:43 2010 Received: from morpheus.lapseofthought.com (mail.lapseofthought.com [66.124.80.202]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2IFshlO053582 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:54:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drich@employees.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (morpheus-ipv6.lapseofthought.com [IPv6:2001:470:8105:1::20]) (authenticated bits=0) by morpheus.lapseofthought.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o2IFsWkS045975 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:54:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drich@employees.org) Message-ID: <4BA24CB8.8050306@employees.org> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:54:32 -0700 From: Daniel Rich User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (X11/20090609) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rpug@linux.com References: <4BA2382F.1040204@linux.com> In-Reply-To: <4BA2382F.1040204@linux.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigEC621016FA11BAB92C1099C4" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=6.0 tests=BAYES_00, TW_QP autolearn=ham version=3.3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.0 (2010-01-18) on morpheus.lapseofthought.com Cc: bblisa@bblisa.org, sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] A summary: emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:54:44 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigEC621016FA11BAB92C1099C4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ryan Pugatch wrote: > Here is a summary of solutions mentioned in response to my posting to > BBLISA and SAGE: > > - Dean Anderson mentions this article: > http://www.linuxjournal.com/files/linuxjournal.com/ufiles/LJ191_UsingSM= SforNagios.pdf > which involves using an SMS device to interface with Nagios. The > MultiTech device in the article is mentioned by Daniel Rich. > > - Lukas Karlsson uses QuickPage - http://www.qpage.org/ with a modem > and POTS line. There were a few others suggesting qpage as well. I am a former qpage user who has migrated to sendpage (yes, I still use a modem to send pages via. TAP :-) ). We were having problems with qpage not always sending pages as well as issues with our Nextel phones. Sendpage has resolved those for us. I have also submitted patches to both qpage and sendpage to allow them to communicate directly with SNPP servers for the carriers that provide them. It will first attempt to send the message via. SNPP if a server is configured and the network is available, if that fails it will fallback to TAP. We found this leads to messages being sent *much* faster and more reliably. I should know more on the MultiTech iSMS device in the next few days, we are expecting to have it up and running this afternoon. > - Derek Balling suggests the Siemens TC65T - several others recommend > using an old cell phone or modem to send the texts directly. > > - Jens Link and Daniel Rich mentioned the decreasing lack of support > for TAP (and also lack of support for WCTP) > > - Several suggestions about having multiple types of notification in > case one fails. > > - Brian de Smet suggests www.pagerduty.com but Phil Pennock said his > colleague had encountered some trouble with them. > > - A couple of people mentioned that AT&T has an enterprise paging > option that gives you an SLA for your texts.=20 > http://enterprisepaging.com/faq.jsp AT&T Enterprise Paging service is also a requirement if you want to use SNPP, WCTP or TAP with an AT&T device. It runs roughly $20 per device per month. > I hope I didn't miss any of the suggestions. > > I think the route I am going to go is to grab a MultiTech iSMS and put > it on to AT&T with an enterprise paging plan. Then I can have big > brother use the API to send messages. You shouldn't need Enterprise paging with the iSMS since you will already be sending SMS messages. You only need it if you want to use TAP, SNPP, SMTP or WCTP to send your messages. > Thanks all for your suggestions. > > Ryan > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members --=20 Dan Rich | http://www.employees.org/~drich/ | "Step up to red alert!" "Are you sure,= sir? | It means changing the bulb in the sign= =2E.." | - Red Dwarf (BBC) --------------enigEC621016FA11BAB92C1099C4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iD8DBQFLoky4IYJ5xMxu09kRAvagAKC9axxQHZs/bn9VH1y7hv9QDeQ1GQCfSbGf d73bUyXkn7K5ti8bn5l+QAE= =aK+x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigEC621016FA11BAB92C1099C4-- From btv1==693dccd248b==guy@crossflight.co.uk Thu Mar 18 08:56:03 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2IFu3e9053635 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:56:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from btv1==693dccd248b==guy@crossflight.co.uk) Received: from bc30o.crossflight.co.uk (bc30o.crossflight.co.uk [195.172.72.196]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2IFu0gI002456 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:56:03 -0700 (PDT) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1268927751-211600130000-AAcX7K X-Barracuda-URL: http://195.172.72.196:8000/cgi-bin/mark.cgi Received: from vsmtpe.crossflight.co.uk (vsmtpe.crossflight.co.uk [195.172.72.209]) by bc30o.crossflight.co.uk (Spam & Virus Firewall) with ESMTP id 8621412E695; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:55:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vsmtpe.crossflight.co.uk (vsmtpe.crossflight.co.uk [195.172.72.209]) by bc30o.crossflight.co.uk with ESMTP id 0kVM4xUP6pRyru2J; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:55:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [172.16.72.7] (northropi.crossflight.co.uk [172.16.72.7]) by vsmtpe.crossflight.co.uk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o2IFtoP0026323; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:55:50 GMT (envelope-from guy@crossflight.co.uk) Message-ID: <4BA24D08.30206@crossflight.co.uk> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:55:52 +0000 From: Guy Dawson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adam Levin X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: [SAGE] hp-ux SAN disk question References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Barracuda-Connect: vsmtpe.crossflight.co.uk[195.172.72.209] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1268927752 X-Barracuda-Virus-Scanned: by Barracuda Spam & Virus Firewall at crossflight.co.uk X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: -1002.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=-1002.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=1000.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] hp-ux SAN disk question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:56:04 -0000 On 18/03/2010 15:31, Adam Levin wrote: > One of the HP boxes has its three root drive partitions mirrored, the > other does not. A difference of 3. > They appear to be off by 3 > (/dev/rdisk/disk74 on one system is /dev/rdisk/disk77 on the other). A difference of 3. Does the mirror process create extra real (or unreal!) entries in /dev/rdisk? Guy -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Guy Dawson I.T. Systems Manager Crossflight Ltd guy@crossflight.co.uk 07973 797819 01753 776104 ******************************************************************* This message contains the views and opinions of a Crossflight Limited employee and at this stage are in no way a direct representation of Crossflight Limited. Crossflight Limited is an international express courier, mailing and logistics service provider. 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We strongly recommend that you check this email with your own virus software as Crossflight Limited will not be held responsible for any damage caused by viruses as a result of opening this email. ******************************************************************* From bblisa.org-bblisa@chrisallison.net Thu Mar 18 08:58:40 2010 Received: from phineus.cs.brandeis.edu (phineus.cs.brandeis.edu [129.64.3.126]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2IFwe5D053671 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:58:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bblisa.org-bblisa@chrisallison.net) Received: from localhost (phineus.cs.brandeis.edu [127.0.0.1]) by phineus.cs.brandeis.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F282A2B98C0; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:58:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phineus.cs.brandeis.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (phineus.cs.brandeis.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06147-07-2; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:58:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from themis.cs.brandeis.edu (themis.cs.brandeis.edu [129.64.2.151]) by phineus.cs.brandeis.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 350ED2B9868; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:58:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:58:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Allison X-X-Sender: chris@themis.cs.brandeis.edu To: Internaut at Large , bblisa@bblisa.org In-Reply-To: <1268925774.9141.27.camel@hedgehog.wardrobe.irobot.com> Message-ID: References: <4BA2382F.1040204@linux.com> <1268925774.9141.27.camel@hedgehog.wardrobe.irobot.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at cs.brandeis.edu X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:01:25 -0700 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] [BBLISA] A summary: emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:58:41 -0000 On Thu, 18 Mar 2010, Internaut at Large wrote: > Is there any reason why we can't use text-to-speech? I mean, have > Nagios call phones Dave Josephson covered this in his February 2009 "iVoyeur" column in Usenix ";login:". The first half of the article covers sending SMS from Nagios via a cellphone tethered to the Nagios box, the second half covers using said cellphone + Asterisk to provide a fallback to audible alerts, and proposes extending this further by implementing phone-based menus to process responses. Since it has been a year since publication, the PDF is now freely available online (no subscription/login required): Article: "iVoyeur: Message in a Bottle -- Replacing Email Warnings with SMS" by Dave Josephsen ToC: http://usenix.org/publications/login/2009-02/ PDF: http://usenix.org/publications/login/2009-02/pdfs/josephsen.pdf -Chris Allison -- Systems Administrator, Michtom School of Computer Science, Brandeis University http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/ From levins@westnet.com Thu Mar 18 12:33:03 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2IJX3ou058888 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:33:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from levins@westnet.com) Received: from westnet.com (root@westnet.com [216.187.52.2]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2IJX0lj006821 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from westnet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id o2IJWxRv008906 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (levins@localhost) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.13.2/Submit) with ESMTP id o2IJWxZ3008895 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:32:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam Levin To: SAGE mailing list In-Reply-To: <4BA24D08.30206@crossflight.co.uk> Message-ID: References: <4BA24D08.30206@crossflight.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] hp-ux SAN disk question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 19:33:04 -0000 On Thu, 18 Mar 2010, Guy Dawson wrote: > A difference of 3. > A difference of 3. > > Does the mirror process create extra real (or unreal!) entries in > /dev/rdisk? That's what we're thinking. It's being tested. We're not sure because the local disks are cxtxdx, while the SAN disks are "diskxx", so it seems silly that one would affect the other, but that may be what's going on here. -Adam From chris.gregors@enbridge.com Thu Mar 18 13:04:54 2010 Received: from enbridge.com (smtp3.enbridge.com [207.34.126.84]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2IK4sZS059819 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 13:04:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris.gregors@enbridge.com) From: Chris Gregors To: "sage-members@mailman.sage.org" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 14:04:43 -0600 Thread-Topic: [SAGE] A summary: emergency pagers Thread-Index: AcrGtPEuSmatqnM1RXuyBw1y1ZQBLwAITW5g Message-ID: <9FF313270BFF8746BE4611B1FE1346DC01147B9D03@CNPLMAIL01.cnpl.enbridge.com> References: <4BA2382F.1040204@linux.com> <4BA24CB8.8050306@employees.org> In-Reply-To: <4BA24CB8.8050306@employees.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2IK4sZS059819 Subject: Re: [SAGE] A summary: emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:04:55 -0000 I started writing my own 2cents worth on the issue of pagers and ended up rambling to myself about escalations and acknowledgements. Rather than post my ramblings here, I posted them here http://chrisgregors.blogspot.com/2010/03/alert-esclations-and-acknowledgements.html Chris Gregors Enbridge Pipelines Inc. IT Operations -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Rich Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 9:55 AM To: rpug@linux.com Cc: bblisa@bblisa.org; sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] A summary: emergency pagers Ryan Pugatch wrote: > Here is a summary of solutions mentioned in response to my posting to > BBLISA and SAGE: > > - Dean Anderson mentions this article: > http://www.linuxjournal.com/files/linuxjournal.com/ufiles/LJ191_UsingS > MSforNagios.pdf which involves using an SMS device to interface with > Nagios. The MultiTech device in the article is mentioned by Daniel > Rich. > > - Lukas Karlsson uses QuickPage - http://www.qpage.org/ with a modem > and POTS line. There were a few others suggesting qpage as well. I am a former qpage user who has migrated to sendpage (yes, I still use a modem to send pages via. TAP :-) ). We were having problems with qpage not always sending pages as well as issues with our Nextel phones. Sendpage has resolved those for us. I have also submitted patches to both qpage and sendpage to allow them to communicate directly with SNPP servers for the carriers that provide them. It will first attempt to send the message via. SNPP if a server is configured and the network is available, if that fails it will fallback to TAP. We found this leads to messages being sent *much* faster and more reliably. I should know more on the MultiTech iSMS device in the next few days, we are expecting to have it up and running this afternoon. > - Derek Balling suggests the Siemens TC65T - several others recommend > using an old cell phone or modem to send the texts directly. > > - Jens Link and Daniel Rich mentioned the decreasing lack of support > for TAP (and also lack of support for WCTP) > > - Several suggestions about having multiple types of notification in > case one fails. > > - Brian de Smet suggests www.pagerduty.com but Phil Pennock said his > colleague had encountered some trouble with them. > > - A couple of people mentioned that AT&T has an enterprise paging > option that gives you an SLA for your texts. > http://enterprisepaging.com/faq.jsp AT&T Enterprise Paging service is also a requirement if you want to use SNPP, WCTP or TAP with an AT&T device. It runs roughly $20 per device per month. > I hope I didn't miss any of the suggestions. > > I think the route I am going to go is to grab a MultiTech iSMS and put > it on to AT&T with an enterprise paging plan. Then I can have big > brother use the API to send messages. You shouldn't need Enterprise paging with the iSMS since you will already be sending SMS messages. You only need it if you want to use TAP, SNPP, SMTP or WCTP to send your messages. > Thanks all for your suggestions. > > Ryan > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members -- Dan Rich | http://www.employees.org/~drich/ | "Step up to red alert!" "Are you sure, sir? | It means changing the bulb in the sign..." | - Red Dwarf (BBC) From sjohnson@monsters.org Thu Mar 18 15:13:17 2010 Received: from mothra.monsters.org (adsl-208-191-248-5.dsl.ltrkar.swbell.net [208.191.248.5]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2IMDG1O063933 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:13:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjohnson@monsters.org) Received: from [10.13.13.66] ([170.94.139.93]) (authenticated bits=0) by mothra.monsters.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o2IMBicj018628 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:11:45 -0500 From: Stephen Johnson To: dkap@mailhost.haven.org, rpug@linux.com X-Mailer: Modest 3.1 References: <4BA2382F.1040204@linux.com> <1268925774.9141.27.camel@hedgehog.wardrobe.irobot.com> In-Reply-To: <1268925774.9141.27.camel@hedgehog.wardrobe.irobot.com> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:11:42 -0500 Message-Id: <1268950302.2854.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: bblisa@bblisa.org, sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] [BBLISA] A summary: emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Stephen Johnson List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:13:18 -0000 Using an automated telephone notification system is entirely feasible. There are many open source telephony solutions. (Or cheap commercial solutions based on those open source software) Best know is probably Asterisk. Its quite flexible on how it can be used. You can create your own cutom scripting in Asterisk and even integrate text to speech software like flite. And you can use just about any method to connect into a phone network: VoIP connection or trunk, a T# trunck, POTS port etc. The non-VoIP method would require some modest extra hardware. ----- Original message ----- > Greetings, > > Something occurred to me in reading this. > > Is there any reason why we can't use text-to-speech?  I mean, have > Nagios call phones, and read the error, or play a pre-recorded error > message over the voice-line, and listen for a response?  ("Hit 1 to > acknowledge you are on the problem, Hang up, or hit 2 to pass this on to > the next person in the tree." or the like.) > > Especially with VoIP so common nowadays ... > > Just thinking of the future, > -dkap > > On Thu, 2010-03-18 at 10:26 -0400, Ryan Pugatch wrote: > > Here is a summary of solutions mentioned in response to my posting to > > BBLISA and SAGE: > > > > - Dean Anderson mentions this article: > > http://www.linuxjournal.com/files/linuxjournal.com/ufiles/LJ191_UsingSMSforNagios.pdf > > which involves using an SMS device to interface with Nagios.  The > > MultiTech device in the article is mentioned by Daniel Rich. > > > > - Lukas Karlsson uses QuickPage - http://www.qpage.org/ with a modem and > > POTS line.  There were a few others suggesting qpage as well. > > > > - Derek Balling suggests the Siemens TC65T - several others recommend > > using an old cell phone or modem to send the texts directly. > > > > - Jens Link and Daniel Rich mentioned the decreasing lack of support for > > TAP (and also lack of support for WCTP) > > > > - Several suggestions about having multiple types of notification in > > case one fails. > > > > - Brian de Smet suggests www.pagerduty.com but Phil Pennock said his > > colleague had encountered some trouble with them. > > > > - A couple of people mentioned that AT&T has an enterprise paging option > > that gives you an SLA for your texts.  http://enterprisepaging.com/faq.jsp > > > > > > I hope I didn't miss any of the suggestions. > > > > I think the route I am going to go is to grab a MultiTech iSMS and put > > it on to AT&T with an enterprise paging plan.  Then I can have big > > brother use the API to send messages. > > > > > > Thanks all for your suggestions. > > > > Ryan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > bblisa mailing list > > bblisa@bblisa.org > > http://www.bblisa.org/mailman/listinfo/bblisa > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From doug@will.to Thu Mar 18 15:45:49 2010 Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2IMjmnB064638 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:45:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from [75.192.230.76] (76.sub-75-192-230.myvzw.com [75.192.230.76]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id o2IMjgQU015319 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:45:46 -0400 Message-ID: <4BA2AD1D.90201@will.to> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:45:49 -0400 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Magda References: <4BA2382F.1040204@linux.com> <32850.207.61.230.154.1268924328.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <32850.207.61.230.154.1268924328.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] A summary: emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:45:50 -0000 David Magda wrote: > On Thu, March 18, 2010 10:26, Ryan Pugatch wrote: > > >> I think the route I am going to go is to grab a MultiTech iSMS and put >> it on to AT&T with an enterprise paging plan. Then I can have big >> brother use the API to send messages. >> > > Does anyone use a system that makes you acknowledge alerts? > > I'm at a fairly big company that has a NOC, and if they can't reach the > first person on the chain after a certain period of time, they escalate to > the manager, director, etc. until they reach someone. > > With smaller organizations though, how do people do escalations (assuming > that they do)? Would you text back to an SMS? Log into the monitoring > system (or reply to the alert e-mail) to prevent the next level up (I > think Nagios can do this)? > > There are even HOWTOs to combine Nagios and Asterisk so that you can > "press 1 to hear the problem, press 2 to acknowledge, etc." after dialing > a number. > > we do this with an org size of 6 people. Zenoss handles the escalations. You click the acknowledge button in the email which launches to the web page to acknowledge the event. If no acknowledgement, it goes through several levels of escalation. From warp3r@gmail.com Fri Mar 19 03:44:50 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2JAio2r083929 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 03:44:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from warp3r@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f228.google.com (mail-fx0-f228.google.com [209.85.220.228]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2JAik4g000850 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 03:44:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by fxm28 with SMTP id 28so1338204fxm.39 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 03:44:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=aBp9gObxRrZFCmqDcD6AiNtiMrvd8qW4O7K4E6a4NY4=; b=cTyvLXlNrz7qtjeYaeQQl5DfhC/qHTj2F/HFeWpK3sn8cOTnOh0wZUTJ2RWow725pW neY14MxY1TJFAsPjqqnEMEGHo9J6/R9FisTQ/x0r5sPYjBEOoz5wjIw6iEZGWLoXN0f/ dfcSvQuRh2DxOIF9mrY/QEMlECWlVWK0yjAfA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=dWtBQHR+WescRPQCABnQ60+DTKzn7Gsw16bjG1YKOJhq6acIwGUQIrvaUi3i2TnjfM GUNjwGfwGv5K8DZzDDYRyCXMnw7XKmADX/mBoyI/AbpO/0uDC9H8VCES1CUh/fqcBLOO SDyjNtL7QkYHp0tlZzED2uAQL5oT6leeAJJ2I= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.76.21 with SMTP id d21mr2499879mul.17.1268995107649; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 03:38:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BA24D08.30206@crossflight.co.uk> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:38:27 +0100 Message-ID: <647a40581003190338j45c1a855m3199e714df0daabf@mail.gmail.com> From: Jordi Molina To: Adam Levin X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] hp-ux SAN disk question X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:44:50 -0000 Hi there, SAN disks are diskxx because of the multipath thing. if you do a ioscan -m dsf /dev/disk/diskxxx, you will get an output similar to: Persistent DSF Legacy DSF(s) ======================================== /dev/disk/disk253 /dev/dsk/c12t3d0 /dev/dsk/c13t3d0 If you want to use RAC it's better that you create a /dev/oracle_rac folder and then create the dev files like this: #cd /dev/oracle_rac #ll /dev/rdisk/disk253 crw-r----- 1 bin sys 13 0x000060 Jan 31 12:21 /dev/rdisk/disk253 Create device file: #mknod raw_ora_device c 22 0x00004a Normally minor/major numbers should be the same in both systems Hope it helps On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 8:32 PM, Adam Levin wrote: > > On Thu, 18 Mar 2010, Guy Dawson wrote: > >> A difference of 3. >> >> A difference of 3. >> >> Does the mirror process create extra real (or unreal!) entries in >> /dev/rdisk? >> > > That's what we're thinking. It's being tested. We're not sure because the > local disks are cxtxdx, while the SAN disks are "diskxx", so it seems silly > that one would affect the other, but that may be what's going on here. > > -Adam > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- Jordi Molina Casas (warp3r) mail: warp3r@gmail.com 4BC8 8150 7B1A FC24 FBAD 7B07 FE90 F300 4F36 3BF7 mail: warp3r@2shifted.com 2F91 EF95 229E FC31 18C0 05C3 B320 22DA 8C03 F33E www: www.warp3r.com (personal blog) sysadmin.warp3r.com (sysadmin related site) openid: https://openid.warp3r.com/?user=warp3r From jason@jasonantman.com Fri Mar 19 19:43:37 2010 Received: from mailmaster.jasonantman.com (web2.jasonantman.com [96.57.180.134]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2K2haxD007270 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:43:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jason@jasonantman.com) Received: from officers.midlandparkambulance.com (ool-4352721f.dyn.optonline.net [67.82.114.31]) by mailmaster.jasonantman.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C35D78D3D for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 21:30:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4BA43657.2010500@jasonantman.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:43:35 -0400 From: Jason Antman User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (X11/20090625) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> In-Reply-To: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 02:43:37 -0000 I guess I should throw in a comment here... At $UNIVERSITY, after the VA Tech shooting, the higher-ups got busy with emergency planning. It was decided that the best route was to use SMS to notify ~60k people in the event of a major disaster/safety problem. We contracted with some big company that does SMS alerting - they have agreements with all of the major carriers, many gateways directly into the network, and are supposedly the best way to ensure that an SMS gets delivered. They charge us an utterly insane amount of money - somewhere around $100k USD per year, if my memory serves me right. The entire student/faculty/staff population was polled for their cell numbers and carriers. A few weeks after most of the datatbase was complete, they announced a test of the system. I received the "test" SMS approximately 28 hours after the scheduled time. A report issued a month or so later confirmed similarly abysmal results - approximately 50% of the messages sent were delivered within 12 hours. SMS is by no means a failure-proof system, and (apparently even if you have "agreements with all of the major carriers") the rate of successful delivery seems inversely proportional to the number of messages sent out. Text-to-speech over the phone, as mentioned by someone else, provides a simple method to ensure that the notification was received ("press 1 if human") and an acknowledgment method. If you're worried about landlines going down, a relatively inexpensive cell phone with bluetooth, hooked up to a Linxu box with some simple scripting, should be able to get by that. -Jason From matt@msg.ucsf.edu Fri Mar 19 22:04:29 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2K54T4V009435 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:04:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matt@msg.ucsf.edu) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.149]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2K54Q4K025998 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 4so33874qwk.22 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:04:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.66.84 with SMTP id m20mr490909qai.328.1269061465713; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:04:25 -0700 Message-ID: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> From: Matt Harrington To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2K54T4V009435 Subject: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:04:30 -0000 I'm starting to get feedback about a trouble ticket app I'm writing (thanks to everyone who has checked it out), and I'm wondering what to do about Due Dates. Right now, users open tickets and specify a Due Date, and then the agent responsible for the ticket can modify it appropriately. I'm toying with the idea of eliminating it completely. Things that end up in a trouble ticket system are usually issues that need to be fixed as soon as possible. This is different from saying everything is an emergency though. Anyhow, I find that Due Dates are rarely met and pretty much ignored. Tickets get solved as soon as they can. Giving a ticket a priority such as low, medium, high, or emergency is useful though. Perhaps things with Due Dates far into the future would better belong in a project management system, not a trouble ticket system. Any opinions on this? Matt From prvs=0695cef552=phil.pennock@globnix.org Fri Mar 19 22:25:08 2010 Received: from mx.spodhuis.org (redoubt.spodhuis.org [94.142.241.89]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2K5P85V009668 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:25:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from prvs=0695cef552=phil.pennock@globnix.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=globnix.org; s=d200912; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=yNL3NIeTITbXnpsx4rqquMpOaKJMTpExe1vtSgDSu0M=; b=kGS4iU5pthOqYMv2MZGOJJiSIqkl7EyxUSV0YC+66iXatI4sqxQGnNBBroeOX5IkQw+EiqnpmNxyXrtUP8FTbapoDGx+TkQ5z9Sl5fTjR/xLrM1t5CaX9vVAmfy7geWaOSkUM1uePmPLzE0SRNco3pUClF7nvckCNz6oGWI70Gc=; Received: by smtp.spodhuis.org with local id 1NsrBJ-000NEq-9s; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:25:05 +0000 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:25:05 -0700 From: Phil Pennock To: Jason Antman Message-ID: <20100320052505.GA88959@redoubt.spodhuis.org> References: <4BA0E880.7050302@linux.com> <4BA43657.2010500@jasonantman.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <4BA43657.2010500@jasonantman.com> Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] emergency pagers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:25:09 -0000 On 2010-03-19 at 22:43 -0400, Jason Antman wrote: > SMS is by no means a failure-proof system, and (apparently even if you > have "agreements with all of the major carriers") the rate of successful > delivery seems inversely proportional to the number of messages sent out. My understanding, as a non-expert but interested person: * SMS is akin to UDP packets. But with carriers doing some congestion control and buffering, these days. * Pagers are akin to Email/SMTP. One-way pagers broadcast and apparently get great coverage. Two-way pagers use cell towers. Telcos spend more money on their cell networks than it appears that the pager carriers do, or the pager carriers have poor contracts with the telcos, I really don't know. What I do know is that the pager coverage sucks in the Bay Area, for the carrier my pager is on and for the others which $employer evaluated. Pagers are more reliable, the message gets there in the end, but it's a common experience at $employer for the pages to be massively delayed. I'm not surprised when one gets to me three days after it was sent. SMS is normally fast and prompt, unlike the pagers, but it has failure modes which suck -- any time there's congestion. Major time-based holidays, major news-worthy incidents, etc. Pagers appear not to have congestion problems, but I don't know if this is simply that fewer people use them so that congestion is much harder. My $work notification sends me a page and an SMS and, if not responded to within 2 minutes, uses text-to-speach to make a phone-call to me. Valid responses are "yes", "no", "stfu 15" and some aliases (or other auto-ack durations). On those rare occasions when the pager is working, the double-notification is annoying. There are occasional times when the SMS is delayed; I estimate that 5% of those times, the page does make it through in time, the rest I find out because of the phone-call. The notification system is configurable and falls back in various ways, to call other people, and at each step it can use various notification types. I configured my service to initially also send an IRC message to a channel, and wrote an irssi plugin † which uses notify-send(1) to issue a D-Bus message, which my GUI desktop turns into a pop-up bubble. If I'm at my desk or have my laptop connected to IRC (ie, I'm oncall) then this is by far the fastest and most reliable notification system. But it doesn't deal with when I'm not at a computer where I'm on the IRC channel. Others use XMPP, but a limitation of the current system ties that into a per-service notification, not a notification mechanism per-person-oncall. I recommend avoiding that restriction in systems you deploy. ;) Any notification should be configurable as an option per-service-escalation-path *and* per-current-victim. In order of *experienced*, rather than theoretical, reliability and timeliness: * IRC (but doesn't chase people who are away from computer) * Text-to-speech phone-call * SMS (but beware network overload) * Two-way pager (and I have no experience with one-way pager). Regards, -Phil † http://people.spodhuis.org/phil.pennock/software/ desktop-notify.pl From rackow@anl.gov Sat Mar 20 04:46:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2KBk7FX014865 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 04:46:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rackow@anl.gov) Received: from mailhost.anl.gov (mailhost.anl.gov [130.202.113.50]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2KBk4OX011504 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 04:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.anl.gov (mailhost.anl.gov [130.202.113.50]) by localhost.anl.gov (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E5B465; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 06:45:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from obie.cis.anl.gov (lutze.cis.anl.gov [146.137.52.137]) by mailhost.anl.gov (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65ED663; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 06:45:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: by obie.cis.anl.gov (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 616B3916270; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 06:45:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from anl.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by obie.cis.anl.gov (Postfix) with ESMTP id 604299160F5; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 06:45:59 -0500 (CDT) To: Matt Harrington From: rackow@mcs.anl.gov In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:04:25 PDT." <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 06:45:59 -0500 Sender: rackow@anl.gov Message-Id: <20100320114559.616B3916270@obie.cis.anl.gov> X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org, rackow@anl.gov Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 11:46:08 -0000 I agree, for the most part, Due-Dates are a waste of time/effort/bits. The staff wants to get things fixed as soon as possible to keep user satifaction as high as possible. Possibly setting the expectation that you can't enter something with a due-date closer than a week away. mgmt is required to appove shorter duration requirements. anything with a due date set will be planned to be completed at that time. Normal circumstances are things get completed ASAP, so things with a due-date fall to the bottom of the stack until that day arrives. The other way I have seen them come in handy is when you have a hard date when something is happening. ie: new machine arrives on _____ needs: power, net, console, etc. presentation by uberVIP, make sure projector etc work Granted these are not really trouble issues, but in most cases fall to the same group of people to make sure things go smoothly. Being able to link the tickets to a calendar system help for these cases too. Matt Harrington made the following keystrokes: >I'm starting to get feedback about a trouble ticket app I'm writing >(thanks to everyone who has checked it out), and=A0I'm wondering what to >do about Due Dates. Right now, users open tickets and specify a Due >Date, and then the agent responsible for the ticket can modify it >appropriately. I'm toying with the idea of eliminating it completely. > >Things that end up in a trouble ticket system are usually issues that >need to be fixed as soon as possible. This is different from saying >everything is an emergency though. Anyhow, I find that Due Dates are >rarely met and pretty much ignored. Tickets get solved as soon as >they can. Giving a ticket a priority such as low, medium, high, or >emergency is useful though. > >Perhaps things with Due Dates far into the future would better belong >in a project management system, not a trouble ticket system. > >Any opinions on this? > >Matt > >_______________________________________________ >sage-members mailing list >sage-members@mailman.sage.org >http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From brontolinux@gmail.com Sat Mar 20 04:51:36 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2KBpasI015036 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 04:51:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brontolinux@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ew0-f209.google.com (mail-ew0-f209.google.com [209.85.219.209]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2KBpWhP011633 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 04:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ewy1 with SMTP id 1so1851593ewy.18 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 04:51:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OXbpitxrghEAhv7D4Ye8zBy9wMqlMBwWC8g2xlQuaWE=; b=a8ufPf7jyxiUEKiTBRIwZVFBjZdK584GK3br4kb5MaqTu1Z2ViYhx/xNf4CftEXPeY +qoOOcF5UuwO9IEMPfT8n86HJCTqn7pTp2Wp8u4CRmGRYW3IiWBPy8tGFld4MWMQd5oI yq5x6WMp/BpBBCP+K9bXnV3snb7ual1tbOPBw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Wo25QEX3INfg9Gjx3HnsazS65NHpK2tpWtAp40PEv/ZitUEpErwzbFo2962/kaXm7i bZtS/sBjC93K3Jn+142l0MhX8bTONg5RMf0MXUC5OxcYkXEbBZCjlRI9MpFUWUcHN6gN FGR6j4CJ1Cb2fFwjdForxvUgyB6QqWw9H/Vts= Received: by 10.213.81.202 with SMTP id y10mr1292921ebk.23.1269085886886; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 04:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.61.2] ([84.38.144.42]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 16sm730733ewy.11.2010.03.20.04.51.24 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 20 Mar 2010 04:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BA4B6DE.7070608@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 12:51:58 +0100 From: Marco Marongiu User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20100317) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matt Harrington References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 11:51:36 -0000 Interesting question, Matt... Yes, it's true in my experience, too: due dates in a TTS tend to be often ignored by both the "client" and the operators in favour of other fields (e.g.: priorities). When there really is a due date and it's close (= urgent request), then it is marked in the ticket's text and agreed upon with the operators via the TTS itself or other means (phone, chat, talk...). On the other hand, I see due dates much more useful when tickets are handled by a first line (e.g.: a Call Centre or an Operations Centre) and then dispatched to an operator. The first line talks with the client, determines priority and due date, and then forwards the issue to the relevant people. In environments where this is the path of every request (I've seen at least one) the due date field is actively used, and statistics are made for tickets not resolved on time. My suggestions: you could 1) make the "due date" an optional field: those who need it will activate it and it will be shown or 2) give the option to decide who will see this field (client, operators, both) or 3) make the "due date" a field that is never shown to the user and always shown to the operators Hope this helps Ciao! --bronto -- Marco Marongiu System Administrator - Technical Author - Perl Programmer From matt@conundrum.com Sat Mar 20 06:34:49 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2KDYnd4017338 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 06:34:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matt@conundrum.com) Received: from coke.conundrum.com (coke.conundrum.com [216.235.9.139]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2KDYjPW014038 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 06:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [216.235.10.34] (beer.conundrum.com [216.235.10.34]) by coke.conundrum.com (8.13.1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id o2KDYOPa030662; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 08:34:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from matt@conundrum.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Matthew Pounsett In-Reply-To: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 09:34:18 -0400 Message-Id: <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> To: Matt Harrington X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2KDYnd4017338 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 13:34:49 -0000 On 2010/03/20, at 01:04, Matt Harrington wrote: > I'm starting to get feedback about a trouble ticket app I'm writing > (thanks to everyone who has checked it out), and I'm wondering what to > do about Due Dates. Right now, users open tickets and specify a Due > Date, and then the agent responsible for the ticket can modify it > appropriately. I'm toying with the idea of eliminating it completely. Hi Matt. I see three cases where something like a due date is useful, though "due date" may not be the best name in all three. 1) A task is low priority in general, but absolutely must be done by a particular date. A good example of this is an IT department getting a new employee's computer/phone/access set up. This is the only one of the three that really and truly meets the description "due date". 2) A task must be done on a particular date, or even at a particular time. This is a bit of a calendaring function. This is for things like coordinating prep work with a maintenance window, or even tasks that must be left until after a particular date because of some dependancy. 3) Meeting response SLAs. "We respond to your support request in one hour or less!" A ticket needs to be marked with when the next response is due by. Hope you find these useful, Matt From irilyth@swarpa.net Sat Mar 20 06:42:28 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2KDgSJh017465 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 06:42:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from irilyth@swarpa.net) Received: from smtp.swarpa.net (melfpelt.swarpa.net [70.84.200.162]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2KDgPBR014225 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 06:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ecoplant.swarpa.net (ecoplant.swarpa.net [74.52.182.106]) by smtp.swarpa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C149124CEE; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 09:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ecoplant.swarpa.net (Postfix, from userid 500) id 168612E9004A; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 09:42:25 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19364.53439.823781.839120@ecoplant.swarpa.net> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 09:42:23 -0400 To: Ok Pa - We Like To Whomp Ether In-Reply-To: <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under 21.4 (patch 15) "Security Through Obscurity" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smift X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 13:42:28 -0000 A kind of date I've found more useful than due dates is block-until dates, which you can use for a variety of things: When you should pester someone you're waiting to hear back from, when you should start something that you can't start now (e.g. creating accounts for a new hire), etc. Due dates are more useful if you're tracking requests that tend to go along with other things with due dates, e.g. deploying something on the system side that needs to happen before the next application release, or whatever. For "this is broken and needs fixing" type tickets, I don't think it's usually that useful; so in general, it may depend on how much of your workload is planned project work and how much is unplanned/reactive. -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From tal@whatexit.org Sat Mar 20 13:02:47 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2KK2lFG022729 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 13:02:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-qy0-f198.google.com (mail-qy0-f198.google.com [209.85.221.198]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2KK2itu022702 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 13:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36so2656400qyk.30 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 13:02:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.219.143 with SMTP id hu15mr1211847qcb.12.1269114943060; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 12:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 15:55:42 -0400 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91003201255o3020daa8l44aae17c914273d0@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: lopsanj-announce@lopsanj.org, Joisey Computah Confrance , LOPSA - New Jersey Chapter , SAGE , LOPSA Discuss List , LOPSA Technical Discussions X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] LOPSA PICC: Early bird registration ends Monday at midnight! X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 20:02:48 -0000 Don't forget! Full registration price goes up $75 at midnight on Monday night! Register soon! *http://picconf.org* * * ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Tom Limoncelli Date: Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 3:48 PM Subject: LOPSA PICC: Speakers and topics announced (sysadmin conference, May 7-8, 2010, Hyatt Regency New Brunswick, New Jersey) To: Joisey Computah Confrance *What is LOPSA PICC? **http://picconf.org* * Presentations, education, and fun.* *IT and syadmin (Linux/Unix, Windows, Networking & storage).* 2 days, 1 night, conference. Low price/high value. 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LOPSA New Jersey Professional IT Community Conference New Brunswick, NJ, May 7-8, 2010 -- http://picconf.org From mike.diehn@gmail.com Sat Mar 20 17:56:00 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2L0txj8026195 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 17:55:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike.diehn@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f198.google.com (mail-qy0-f198.google.com [209.85.221.198]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2L0tuTa026391 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 17:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36so2736139qyk.30 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 17:55:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; bh=lubZ/6V/gpXUasBuUY/gEsd0PbRtM2ls5G4PXXwnwg4=; b=L4poQ0LVbxpqG+P9M/4eTJcj/G4uunJ8Ju48ijv3ZuVDuz5AQUoDijvJf7x437cXtK nXklnO5xRldcHGRv3BkyqbN88cnfsyiwFavEdpyw+1x8h5/wKXcQjJ0vN/zVxU4f2Bca 7h1l2BAzE4E+DNTe5594+IYMJa7mr4JCCZs6s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=OLRBnouPYpkSwsQffYztbEMc3lHZbU9UuID88Mu+UDwPzgb8ImIX4ZLgRY4FoIBI05 MTLYKukvXj/CXMpx78J+E7MX/DPrmi0l0jJVJJiU8hvkWXEQuKRIzDksR6wJAjkgVCY2 fU2GkXcYgVCMKGhS2x9knR5IJR1Yfjp7GWtvc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mike.diehn@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.94.73 with SMTP id y9mr1777246qam.90.1269132637137; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 17:50:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <19364.53439.823781.839120@ecoplant.swarpa.net> References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> <19364.53439.823781.839120@ecoplant.swarpa.net> From: Mike Diehn Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 20:50:17 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 06a9d74fbfe334e7 Message-ID: <2a03c5ff1003201750v1633e69av46b302dadbbc138c@mail.gmail.com> To: matt@msg.ucsf.edu X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 00:56:00 -0000 The block-until date is brilliant! Spend your time on that and skip the due date. Oh, don't forget to make your "date" field actually a "date and time" field. I often wish I could have tickets pop a reminder at, say, 4pm on Thursday afternoon. So, reminders along with block-until would be great. And a follow-up date/time. Like, I close the issue, but would like to follow up with the client next week to see if the fix I provided is holding them? Cheers, Mike On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Josh Smift wrote: > A kind of date I've found more useful than due dates is block-until dates, > which you can use for a variety of things: When you should pester someone > you're waiting to hear back from, when you should start something that you > can't start now (e.g. creating accounts for a new hire), etc. > > Due dates are more useful if you're tracking requests that tend to go > along with other things with due dates, e.g. deploying something on the > system side that needs to happen before the next application release, or > whatever. For "this is broken and needs fixing" type tickets, I don't > think it's usually that useful; so in general, it may depend on how much > of your workload is planned project work and how much is > unplanned/reactive. > > -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- Mike Diehn Diehn Consulting, LLC mike.diehn@gmail.com From jxh@jxh.com Sat Mar 20 20:11:55 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2L3BsHo027509 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 20:11:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jxh@jxh.com) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (m1.imap-partners.net [64.13.152.131]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2L3BqYu028415 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 20:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from collapse.jxh.com (collapse.jxh.com [75.149.147.131]) by m1.imap-partners.net (MOS 4.1.8-GA) with ESMTP id BOB10997 (AUTH jxh@jxh.com); Sat, 20 Mar 2010 20:11:47 -0700 X-Mirapoint-Received-SPF: 75.149.147.131 collapse.jxh.com 0 fail X-Mirapoint-Received-SPF: 75.149.147.131 collapse.jxh.com 0 fail X-Mirapoint-Received-SPF: 75.149.147.131 collapse.jxh.com 0 fail Message-ID: <4BA58E6E.7010802@jxh.com> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:11:42 -0500 From: Jim Hickstein User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Macintosh/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Diehn References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> <19364.53439.823781.839120@ecoplant.swarpa.net> <2a03c5ff1003201750v1633e69av46b302dadbbc138c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2a03c5ff1003201750v1633e69av46b302dadbbc138c@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 03:11:56 -0000 Mike Diehn wrote: > The block-until date is brilliant! Heh heh. Thanks! (And to Josh for bringing it up.) I've never seen it anywhere else, and I miss it. From brontolinux@gmail.com Sun Mar 21 04:39:17 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2LBdHRv034242 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 04:39:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brontolinux@gmail.com) Received: from ey-out-2122.google.com (ey-out-2122.google.com [74.125.78.24]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2LBdDgx013112 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 04:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ey-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id d26so270221eyd.49 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 04:39:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=P9rzb9/Bh9pn7gykUcf92Fb2LC4IwD5omTS5P0FfHvI=; b=Kpe7qaLjNBvk+noyTkYM36MTCBAN11Fo8954Tn4pUzo2yZBjK+8CRtBuTefAcQOikf BDTrMyGKw8GwXsiheHfUF6eB6KNyQ6P5ADsQtg8T5Vg3H4ikH/EjgARR5rY9Pgzo4zCv kFDJ9WL4Wcg4xoFL98GJTTgJBN1assf4Coe5s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=p6fOz8fBeZXaZazpZ4ogiDuhYbExOTMcPYQjd6M8r8vzGROtZd5OocaaQbzB86ANj6 J+fJaWGG8STIhxFJV40bA3YElRLnqbCLXz9dYmzXcozzljDt/IXposaYL27To7dgh1Yo k/sgYHd9Fn3yQNBwVqu5yCXtoEGZw6mMNQtNg= Received: by 10.213.70.10 with SMTP id b10mr4178516ebj.27.1269171094001; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 04:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.61.4] ([84.38.144.42]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 15sm2100140ewy.12.2010.03.21.04.31.32 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 04:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BA603B8.4020205@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:32:08 +0100 From: Marco Marongiu User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20100317) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Diehn References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> <19364.53439.823781.839120@ecoplant.swarpa.net> <2a03c5ff1003201750v1633e69av46b302dadbbc138c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2a03c5ff1003201750v1633e69av46b302dadbbc138c@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 11:39:18 -0000 Mike Diehn ha scritto: > And a follow-up > date/time. Like, I close the issue, but would like to follow up with the > client next week to see if the fix I provided is holding them? Now, THIS is a great, great, great idea!!! Ciao --bronto -- Marco Marongiu System Administrator - Technical Author - Perl Programmer From danstoner@gmail.com Sun Mar 21 05:11:59 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2LCBxkj034627 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 05:11:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danstoner@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yx0-f171.google.com (mail-yx0-f171.google.com [209.85.210.171]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2LCBuFn013750 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 05:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yxe1 with SMTP id 1so2369785yxe.31 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 05:11:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=j6V7hABcnwXKDN6jScKehYHUZlXGabfgP64rrSDmpm0=; b=cqAmTqOn4kqEyhlibyWgsT0bGcoNWrrqIaRUpmtVjWp2dSrvvcjN3gu7vOx3AcuTOL mzA5yR3/mNNplVUmFIzCC2WxqAJM+1eOgaFTvU0wJZuSxU1TFPiWhdw0v6H8i6TS29sB C+vDfFquVUkgdT/tf37SRKn4ek0jGZLlTiCKk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=MCxWS9VyssBlSG1RoMtCJcS6fF5zKhDJjFIzLUlNT4P43IQU3Nvy+/bDMEavIPq4fU 7PdfdcB60PG65sXbBXGJpYbpDJ6tpBUA0tBNa61XDnBNvekSapE3QChR6Rrr6q2cznXt 5DkCwEDezDFO6HWlAovd+8oeVXm3LgBmhgFH4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.252.7 with SMTP id z7mr3142571ybh.225.1269173510768; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 05:11:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 08:11:50 -0400 Message-ID: <260cfef1003210511m2154f0f7oc49890d27fa0cafd@mail.gmail.com> From: Dan Stoner To: SAGE Members Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2LCBxkj034627 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:11:59 -0000 Most places I have worked tend to ignore the due date in the ticket app. I think this is mostly because it is "just another field" in the app and not made to be particularly useful to the techs. Most people just add due dates to their regular calendar (that is tied to their calendar in their BlackBerrry, etc.). I have also observed the tiering between "urgent" and "when we are able to get to it" and the only items that would receive due dates tend to be urgent requests and the due date is "now" (or "yesterday!"). An exception to this is when the ticket system includes the tasks that are part of some bigger project, where the project planner might want due dates for specific items assigned to the Systems or Support team. However, if your app had a "dashboard" or other area to highlight "Tickets due in the next 24 hours" (period must be configurable of course) then due date becomes more useful, especially to provide coverage when a tech is out sick and had scheduled commitments, etc. - Dan Stoner On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 1:04 AM, Matt Harrington wrote: > I'm starting to get feedback about a trouble ticket app I'm writing > (thanks to everyone who has checked it out), and I'm wondering what to > do about Due Dates.  Right now, users open tickets and specify a Due > Date, and then the agent responsible for the ticket can modify it > appropriately.  I'm toying with the idea of eliminating it completely. > > Things that end up in a trouble ticket system are usually issues that > need to be fixed as soon as possible.  This is different from saying > everything is an emergency though.  Anyhow, I find that Due Dates are > rarely met and pretty much ignored.  Tickets get solved as soon as > they can.  Giving a ticket a priority such as low, medium, high, or > emergency is useful though. > > Perhaps things with Due Dates far into the future would better belong > in a project management system, not a trouble ticket system. > > Any opinions on this? > > Matt > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From irilyth@swarpa.net Sun Mar 21 06:03:04 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2LD34hu035333 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 06:03:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from irilyth@swarpa.net) Received: from smtp.swarpa.net (melfpelt.swarpa.net [70.84.200.162]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2LD31q5015055 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 06:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ecoplant.swarpa.net (ecoplant.swarpa.net [74.52.182.106]) by smtp.swarpa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB754125076; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:03:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ecoplant.swarpa.net (Postfix, from userid 500) id B636D2E9004A; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:03:00 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19366.6404.140579.995038@ecoplant.swarpa.net> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:03:00 -0400 To: Ok Pa - We Like To Whomp Ether In-Reply-To: <4BA603B8.4020205@gmail.com> References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> <19364.53439.823781.839120@ecoplant.swarpa.net> <2a03c5ff1003201750v1633e69av46b302dadbbc138c@mail.gmail.com> <4BA603B8.4020205@gmail.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under 21.4 (patch 15) "Security Through Obscurity" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smift X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 13:03:05 -0000 MD> And a follow-up date/time. Like, I close the issue, but would like to MD> follow up with the client next week to see if the fix I provided is MD> holding them? Another of my general ideas about ticket-tracking systems is that you should try to keep them streamlined. Rather than another date field, why not just block the ticket for a week and use the block-until date for this? The semantics are clear: I think I've fixed the problem, so I can't do anything else on this ticket until the client confirms it (in which case I can close it) or denies it (in which case I can work on whatever issues turn out to still need work). -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From robert@timetraveller.org Sun Mar 21 07:37:06 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2LEb5wW036477 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 07:37:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@timetraveller.org) Received: from procyon.opentrend.net (li144-209.members.linode.com [109.74.197.209]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2LEb05R016698 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 07:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by procyon.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 6E959CE6C; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 10:36:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on procyon.opentrend.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, AWL autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 Received: from castor.opentrend.net (unknown [192.168.120.16]) by procyon.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B746DCE6A for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 10:36:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C8BAA4923FABE; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:38:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B26014748C8EE for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 10:38:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 10:38:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Brockway X-X-Sender: robert@castor.opentrend.net To: SAGE Members List In-Reply-To: <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> Message-ID: References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:37:06 -0000 On Sat, 20 Mar 2010, Matthew Pounsett wrote: > I see three cases where something like a due date is useful, though "due > date" may not be the best name in all three. Well said. This pretty much covers what I was going to write. One point I wanted to add is that the priority can correlate to the Due Date easily. RT[1] has initial priority, final priority and a Due Date fields (among others). Contrib scripts exist which adjust the priority upwards from the inital priority to the final priority in a linear fashion so that the maximum priority is reached as it hits the due date. As such the ticket will steadily rise through the ranks. Similarly we run reports which flag tickets which are approaching their due date but are still outstanding. We correlate project plans with RT tickets. The RT ticket will contain a of technical information that the project manager won't be interested in but that the sysadmins consider essential. Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert@timetraveller.org IRC: Solver Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Sun Mar 21 09:17:01 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2LGH1pb037923 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:17:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toq9-srv.bellnexxia.net (toq9-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.116]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2LGGwLu018421 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toip5.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.88]) by tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100321155956.SLHH22307.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip5.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 11:59:56 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAHTapUtMRCWN/2dsb2JhbAAH1EiEfQQ Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279534477.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.68.37.141]) by toip5.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 21 Mar 2010 11:58:50 -0400 Message-Id: From: David Magda To: SAGE Members In-Reply-To: <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 11:59:56 -0400 References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=80% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 16:17:02 -0000 On Mar 20, 2010, at 09:34, Matthew Pounsett wrote: > 2) A task must be done on a particular date, or even at a particular > time. This is a bit of a calendaring function. This is for things > like coordinating prep work with a maintenance window, or even tasks > that must be left until after a particular date because of some > dependancy. I would find this useful where the ticket is filed for a project. I often have to make DNS changes for projects, so we first have to drop the TTL ahead of time, and then make the actual change. If the ticket is filed two weeks in advance (perhaps as a task for a larger RFC to use the ITIL parlance), then it may get lost in the shuffle depending on volume. What may be useful for this would be the ability to generate an iCalendar message that is sent to the assignee of the ticket. Personally, if a little pop-up reminder doesn't appear, I generally don't remember to attend meetings or calls. Perhaps I've externalized my memory too much though. :) > 3) Meeting response SLAs. "We respond to your support request in > one hour or less!" A ticket needs to be marked with when the next > response is due by. I think a good thing to have would be a "sort by SLA". The system would take the create date, look at the defined SLAs for the priority, and then put the tickets whose SLAs are "coming due" at the top of the list in the queue. From jxh@jxh.com Sun Mar 21 09:47:39 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2LGlc5o038220 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:47:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jxh@jxh.com) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (m1.imap-partners.net [64.13.152.131]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2LGladH018934 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from collapse.jxh.com (collapse.jxh.com [75.149.147.131]) by m1.imap-partners.net (MOS 4.1.8-GA) with ESMTP id BOC00345 (AUTH jxh@jxh.com); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:47:33 -0700 X-Mirapoint-Received-SPF: 75.149.147.131 collapse.jxh.com 0 fail X-Mirapoint-Received-SPF: 75.149.147.131 collapse.jxh.com 0 fail Message-ID: <4BA64DA0.4070504@jxh.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 11:47:28 -0500 From: Jim Hickstein User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Macintosh/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josh Smift References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> <19364.53439.823781.839120@ecoplant.swarpa.net> <2a03c5ff1003201750v1633e69av46b302dadbbc138c@mail.gmail.com> <4BA603B8.4020205@gmail.com> <19366.6404.140579.995038@ecoplant.swarpa.net> In-Reply-To: <19366.6404.140579.995038@ecoplant.swarpa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: Ok Pa - We Like To Whomp Ether Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 16:47:39 -0000 Josh Smift wrote: > MD> And a follow-up date/time. Like, I close the issue, but would like to > MD> follow up with the client next week to see if the fix I provided is > MD> holding them? > > Another of my general ideas about ticket-tracking systems is that you > should try to keep them streamlined. Rather than another date field, why > not just block the ticket for a week and use the block-until date for > this? The semantics are clear: I think I've fixed the problem, so I can't > do anything else on this ticket until the client confirms it (in which > case I can close it) or denies it (in which case I can work on whatever > issues turn out to still need work). > > -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) Yes. I also used freeze-until (as I had called it at first) for "Expect this to arrive UPS on Friday." On Friday, you can either unpack it or complain about it not being there, but until Friday there is absolutely nothing more you can or should do about it. Same for making follow-up phone calls: you have to wait a decent interval to give them a sporting chance to call you back. When your to-do list isn't clogged with things you can't actually do, it becomes clearer what you can and should do next, which is what these systems are supposed to help you figure out. You can still cherry-pick, of course. (What do I feel like doing next?) But that's not a problem with a technological solution. :-) From jxh@jxh.com Sun Mar 21 09:53:00 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2LGr0fR038274 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:53:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jxh@jxh.com) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (m1.imap-partners.net [64.13.152.131]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2LGqvKU019052 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from collapse.jxh.com (collapse.jxh.com [75.149.147.131]) by m1.imap-partners.net (MOS 4.1.8-GA) with ESMTP id BOC01023 (AUTH jxh@jxh.com); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:52:55 -0700 X-Mirapoint-Received-SPF: 75.149.147.131 collapse.jxh.com 0 fail X-Mirapoint-Received-SPF: 75.149.147.131 collapse.jxh.com 0 fail Message-ID: <4BA64EE2.5060409@jxh.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 11:52:50 -0500 From: Jim Hickstein User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Macintosh/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josh Smift References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> <19364.53439.823781.839120@ecoplant.swarpa.net> <2a03c5ff1003201750v1633e69av46b302dadbbc138c@mail.gmail.com> <4BA603B8.4020205@gmail.com> <19366.6404.140579.995038@ecoplant.swarpa.net> In-Reply-To: <19366.6404.140579.995038@ecoplant.swarpa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: Ok Pa - We Like To Whomp Ether Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 16:53:00 -0000 Josh Smift wrote: > MD> And a follow-up date/time. Like, I close the issue, but would like to > MD> follow up with the client next week to see if the fix I provided is > MD> holding them? > > Another of my general ideas about ticket-tracking systems is that you > should try to keep them streamlined. Rather than another date field, why > not just block the ticket for a week and use the block-until date for > this? The semantics are clear: I think I've fixed the problem, so I can't > do anything else on this ticket until the client confirms it (in which > case I can close it) or denies it (in which case I can work on whatever > issues turn out to still need work). Actually, this one is also a case for presumptive resolution. If I think I solved it, I close the ticket. If they disagree, it will re-open. If they never check, and never care, and never mention it again, it's not my problem. This is a case of the ticket system implementing a particular policy, and those should always be configurable. Maybe you want to send a bingo card (survey) when the ticket closes. Maybe you want to drop it silently and hope they forget. From rskiadmin@chycoski.com Sun Mar 21 10:25:34 2010 Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2LHPYLg038739 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 10:25:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rskiadmin@chycoski.com) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEANPypUurR7H+/2dsb2JhbACbO3OgNZdlglyCIQSDHg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,283,1267401600"; d="scan'208";a="500294537" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Mar 2010 17:25:28 +0000 Received: from [10.19.54.150] (sjc-rac-8715.cisco.com [10.19.54.150]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o2LHPSAx000397 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:25:28 GMT Message-ID: <4BA65693.3050103@chycoski.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 10:25:39 -0700 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:25:34 -0000 On 3/21/10 7:38 AM, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Sat, 20 Mar 2010, Matthew Pounsett wrote: > >> I see three cases where something like a due date is useful, though >> "due date" may not be the best name in all three. > > Well said. This pretty much covers what I was going to write. One > point I wanted to add is that the priority can correlate to the Due > Date easily. RT[1] has initial priority, final priority and a Due Date > fields (among others). Contrib scripts exist which adjust the > priority upwards from the inital priority to the final priority in a > linear fashion so that the maximum priority is reached as it hits the > due date. As such the ticket will steadily rise through the ranks. > Similarly we run reports which flag tickets which are approaching > their due date but are still outstanding. > > We correlate project plans with RT tickets. The RT ticket will > contain a of technical information that the project manager won't be > interested in but that the sysadmins consider essential. > > Cheers, > > Rob > Managing SLA through priority modification obfuscates the priority field - SLA and priority are related, but unless all of your cases start as 'low' and migrate to 'high' as SLA approaches (and approaching SLA is the only reason that priority changes), you're losing the value of the initial priority definition for your cases. This is confusing 'priority' with 'urgency'. The priority of a task should be determined by business requirements, and a low priority task that misses SLA may be OK for the business if other tasks truly have a higher business impact. If missing the SLA is going to have a major business impact, then the case should have a higher initial priority. In fact, that can be a good way to judge what priority a case should get. A high priority case can still be marked as not urgent - it's OK if it does not get done until xx/xx, but it had better be done by then! SLA and priority should be managed together-but-separately - and in some cases, raising priority may be appropriate, e.g., It was OK for the bilge pump to be under-powered until three more holes opened in the hull :-), but you don't want to make fixing the bilge pump a high priority just because it's about to impact the SLA if the resource could be better used to steer the boat away from those nasty rocks... At $WORK, SLA and priority are managed separately. Our TTS (Trouble Tracking System) nags us with emails about cases that are about to (or have passed) SLA, but the priority of the case remains where it started unless escalated by a service manager. This makes it possible for service managers to look at the case load, see that that there are some low priority cases that are falling off the end, but that truly high priority (as defined by business impact) cases are getting handled (and not hurry to add staff because it looks like high priority work is suffering). If failed-SLA cases were raised in priority, these low priority cases would start impacting the 'real' high priority work. Customers can contact the service manager to raise ( or lower - but that never happens! ) the priority of a case based on business requirements, but failing an SLA doesn't alter case priority. It *does* mean that missed-SLA, low priority cases get worked on before low priority cases that are still within SLA. Due date - I agree that this is not a good name as it is open to much misuse. Any organisation using this field must define what is meant, and make sure that everyone else is on the same page. ( In my experience, this rarely happens. :-) We don't have due date fields in our TTS. Our case model is work-to-SLA, but customers can put 'required by' or 'implement on' dates within the cases, and in fact our case entry system does ask the customers for this data for case types that need it, e.g., Please move my data on xx/xx, Move my data before xx/xx, or Don't move that data until after xxxx. Not all fields are appropriate for all case types, and we find it useful to have a customised front end that asks different kinds of questions for different kinds of cases and then puts some of that data in the free-form text part of the case description. It does mean that you can't manage cases by these dates as easily, but as most of the important (read: higher priority) changes need to be accompanied by a Change Management request, the CM system gets to inform/nag about these items. If you're trying to use your TTS as a Change Management system, you may be overloading its function. - Richard From allbery@ece.cmu.edu Sun Mar 21 12:52:25 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2LJqPGV040692 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:52:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu (BACHE.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.129.23]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2LJqMcT022089 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mress.kf8nh.com (static-72-77-17-40.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net [72.77.17.40]) (Authenticated sender: allbery@ECE.CMU.EDU) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC73F7; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 15:52:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <0D01C50D-E7FF-4BED-847A-994CD9AC3B1D@ece.cmu.edu> From: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" To: Dan Stoner In-Reply-To: <260cfef1003210511m2154f0f7oc49890d27fa0cafd@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-14-983628710" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 15:52:00 -0400 References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <260cfef1003210511m2154f0f7oc49890d27fa0cafd@mail.gmail.com> X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.0 (v56) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 19:52:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-14-983628710 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 21, 2010, at 08:11 , Dan Stoner wrote: > However, if your app had a "dashboard" or other area to highlight > "Tickets due in the next 24 hours" (period must be configurable of > course) then due date becomes more useful, especially to provide > coverage when a tech is out sick and had scheduled commitments, etc. "Tickets with no activity in the past days" might be more useful as a dashboard: who's letting things slip? -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH --Apple-Mail-14-983628710 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkumeO0ACgkQIn7hlCsL25UfRgCg1dTq0YN7QqNXAqDuiKUaUanV U9UAn3XNemzbXNHb7KV+leWjW4OoKok0 =Xuwh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-14-983628710-- From allbery@ece.cmu.edu Sun Mar 21 12:53:47 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2LJrksU040703 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:53:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu (BACHE.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.129.23]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2LJrhIu022118 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mress.kf8nh.com (static-72-77-17-40.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net [72.77.17.40]) (Authenticated sender: allbery@ECE.CMU.EDU) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD64F7; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 15:53:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <900F556C-983B-41E0-BAA2-DA81113F2EB7@ece.cmu.edu> From: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" To: Josh Smift In-Reply-To: <19366.6404.140579.995038@ecoplant.swarpa.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-15-983728651" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 15:53:40 -0400 References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> <19364.53439.823781.839120@ecoplant.swarpa.net> <2a03c5ff1003201750v1633e69av46b302dadbbc138c@mail.gmail.com> <4BA603B8.4020205@gmail.com> <19366.6404.140579.995038@ecoplant.swarpa.net> X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.0 (v56) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: Ok Pa - We Like To Whomp Ether Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 19:53:47 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-15-983728651 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 21, 2010, at 09:03 , Josh Smift wrote: > not just block the ticket for a week and use the block-until date for > this? The semantics are clear: I think I've fixed the problem, so I > can't > do anything else on this ticket until the client confirms it (in which > case I can close it) or denies it (in which case I can work on > whatever > issues turn out to still need work). Only useful with a dedicated block field for this or in conjunction with a ticket status (CLOSE_WAIT? :) -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH --Apple-Mail-15-983728651 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkumeUUACgkQIn7hlCsL25UbWwCfdNu1f+wdM8AVtO+1G+WYEEN/ KQAAn1LLTrpLJM4kaHWW/w8Q1NHVFJSC =5aYg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-15-983728651-- From allbery@ece.cmu.edu Sun Mar 21 12:55:49 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2LJtnYJ040744 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:55:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu (BACHE.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.129.23]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2LJtkQ3022183 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mress.kf8nh.com (static-72-77-17-40.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net [72.77.17.40]) (Authenticated sender: allbery@ECE.CMU.EDU) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADEF1F7; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 15:55:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: From: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" To: Jim Hickstein In-Reply-To: <4BA64EE2.5060409@jxh.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-16-983850821" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 15:55:43 -0400 References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> <19364.53439.823781.839120@ecoplant.swarpa.net> <2a03c5ff1003201750v1633e69av46b302dadbbc138c@mail.gmail.com> <4BA603B8.4020205@gmail.com> <19366.6404.140579.995038@ecoplant.swarpa.net> <4BA64EE2.5060409@jxh.com> X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.0 (v56) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: Ok Pa - We Like To Whomp Ether Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 19:55:49 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-16-983850821 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 21, 2010, at 12:52 , Jim Hickstein wrote: > configurable. Maybe you want to send a bingo card (survey) when the > ticket closes. Maybe you want to drop it silently and hope they > forget. While I can understand that attitude sometimes, it tends to reflect poorly on one. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH --Apple-Mail-16-983850821 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkumeb8ACgkQIn7hlCsL25WvwACgnKoVBfpPxMulfZgmMJm3KHZC 06wAn3Situtl4WhBNs5UaGcLyzqaei73 =TUd2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-16-983850821-- From irilyth@swarpa.net Sun Mar 21 14:34:43 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2LLYhxm041806 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:34:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from irilyth@swarpa.net) Received: from smtp.swarpa.net (melfpelt.swarpa.net [70.84.200.162]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2LLYeoD023551 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ecoplant.swarpa.net (ecoplant.swarpa.net [74.52.182.106]) by smtp.swarpa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70EB6125960; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:34:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ecoplant.swarpa.net (Postfix, from userid 500) id 62F3F2E9004A; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:34:39 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19366.37103.37491.529760@ecoplant.swarpa.net> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:34:39 -0400 To: Ok Pa - We Like To Whomp Ether In-Reply-To: <4BA64EE2.5060409@jxh.com> References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> <19364.53439.823781.839120@ecoplant.swarpa.net> <2a03c5ff1003201750v1633e69av46b302dadbbc138c@mail.gmail.com> <4BA603B8.4020205@gmail.com> <19366.6404.140579.995038@ecoplant.swarpa.net> <900F556C-983B-41E0-BAA2-DA81113F2EB7@ece.cmu.edu> <4BA64EE2.5060409@jxh.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under 21.4 (patch 15) "Security Through Obscurity" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smift X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:34:44 -0000 JXH> Actually, this one is also a case for presumptive resolution. If I JXH> think I solved it, I close the ticket. If they disagree, it will JXH> re-open. If they never check, and never care, and never mention it JXH> again, it's not my problem. As long as your users are ok with that, sure; whether this is acceptable or not will vary, and as you say, the ticket system should be implement a variety of policies. BSA> Only useful with a dedicated block field for this or in conjunction BSA> with a ticket status (CLOSE_WAIT? :) Not sure what you mean by "a dedicated block field". My favorite implementation of this had a Status field that could be Open, Blocked, or Closed; and if the ticket was Blocked, a Block Until field that could either be a date or another ticket. That should be all you need, ja? There are lots of other questions to answer, like: * What happens when you reach the block-until date? Does the Status change back to Open? Does something send you a reminder e-mail? My personal preference is to have it send you mail and push back the date by N hours, at which point it'll continue doing that until you deal with it; but different people's mileage may vary. (A robust user preferences system can help a lot here.) * What does it mean for one ticket to block on another? Blocked until that ticket closes, or sees activity, or changes Status, or ... ? Should you get a reminder of some sort about tickets that are blocked on other tickets? Blocking until a time is somewhat safer in that you can clearly define what happens when the time arrives, and be confident that it'll do whatever that is; whereas blocking on some event (like "another ticket") leaves open the question of how you decice when you've been waiting long enough for that event to happen, and what you do about it. -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From allbery@ece.cmu.edu Sun Mar 21 14:49:11 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2LLnBOZ042024 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:49:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu (BACHE.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.129.23]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2LLn7q4023726 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mress.kf8nh.com (static-72-77-17-40.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net [72.77.17.40]) (Authenticated sender: allbery@ECE.CMU.EDU) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F4D5F7; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: From: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" To: Josh Smift In-Reply-To: <19366.37103.37491.529760@ecoplant.swarpa.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-24-990641822" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:48:54 -0400 References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> <19364.53439.823781.839120@ecoplant.swarpa.net> <2a03c5ff1003201750v1633e69av46b302dadbbc138c@mail.gmail.com> <4BA603B8.4020205@gmail.com> <19366.6404.140579.995038@ecoplant.swarpa.net> <900F556C-983B-41E0-BAA2-DA81113F2EB7@ece.cmu.edu> <4BA64EE2.5060409@jxh.com> <19366.37103.37491.529760@ecoplant.swarpa.net> X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.0 (v56) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: Ok Pa - We Like To Whomp Ether Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:49:11 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-24-990641822 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mar 21, 2010, at 17:34 , Josh Smift wrote: > BSA> Only useful with a dedicated block field for this or in =20 > conjunction > BSA> with a ticket status (CLOSE_WAIT? :) > > Not sure what you mean by "a dedicated block field". My favorite A block-until date field specific to "waiting on customer =20 confirmation"; which is better handled by a status, but that wasn't =20 the context. > * What happens when you reach the block-until date? Does the Status =20= > change > back to Open? Does something send you a reminder e-mail? My personal > preference is to have it send you mail and push back the date by N > hours, at which point it'll continue doing that until you deal with =20= > it; > but different people's mileage may vary. (A robust user preferences > system can help a lot here.) Automatic close if there's been no activity is probably right here =20 unless the ticketing system is smart enough to send out followups =20 (surveys?) =97 in which case it should be triggered by time after =20= closed with no activity. > * What does it mean for one ticket to block on another? Blocked =20 > until that > ticket closes, or sees activity, or changes Status, or ... ? Should =20= > you > get a reminder of some sort about tickets that are blocked on other > tickets? It can be argued that if your block-until needs finer resolution that =20= "ticket closed" then it's blocked on the wrong thing. On the other =20 hand, I'm inclined to consider that more the province of a project =20 management system (which could be and possibly should be linked to the =20= trouble ticket system, but it's up to the project management system, =20 not the trouble ticket system, to handle "ticket closed" for linked =20 tickets). --=20 brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH --Apple-Mail-24-990641822 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkumlFAACgkQIn7hlCsL25Vu7wCggd/LWJpBMkZnpyX2+IZrQg/A Sh8AnRbhBKp/+xzJCAtyVupeap22tuxI =nbez -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-24-990641822-- From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Mon Mar 22 06:05:19 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MD5JdK053951 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 06:05:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MD5GPW019926 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 06:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o2MD5T50017277; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <36529.207.61.230.154.1269263130.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <19366.37103.37491.529760@ecoplant.swarpa.net> References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> <19364.53439.823781.839120@ecoplant.swarpa.net> <2a03c5ff1003201750v1633e69av46b302dadbbc138c@mail.gmail.com> <4BA603B8.4020205@gmail.com> <19366.6404.140579.995038@ecoplant.swarpa.net> <900F556C-983B-41E0-BAA2-DA81113F2EB7@ece.cmu.edu> <4BA64EE2.5060409@jxh.com> <19366.37103.37491.529760@ecoplant.swarpa.net> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:05:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "David Magda" To: "Josh Smift" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:05:20 -0000 On Sun, March 21, 2010 17:34, Josh Smift wrote: > * What happens when you reach the block-until date? Does the Status change > back to Open? Does something send you a reminder e-mail? My personal > preference is to have it send you mail and push back the date by N > hours, at which point it'll continue doing that until you deal with it; > but different people's mileage may vary. (A robust user preferences > system can help a lot here.) The ticketing system we have at $WORK has a "On-Hold" value for the Status field, with the following sub-options: . Addition Info . Appointment Scheduled . Awaiting Approval . Customer Action . External Vendor Action Similarly there's a "Pending" status: . Customer Action . Deliver in Channel . Part / Component . Resolution Confirmation . Under Observation . Vendor I personally don't use them (being mostly a server guy), but the the latter are supposedly useful for the folks that deal with users more directly, especially with desktop hardware. From rskiadmin@chycoski.com Mon Mar 22 06:54:59 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MDsx9K054462 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 06:54:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rskiadmin@chycoski.com) Received: from adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.122.242.225]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MDsu2l021768 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 06:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.72.2] (wizfast.rski.net [192.168.72.2]) by adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (8.14.3/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o2MDsdiZ008996; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 06:54:39 -0700 Message-ID: <4BA7769D.4010003@chycoski.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 06:54:37 -0700 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marco Marongiu References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> <19364.53439.823781.839120@ecoplant.swarpa.net> <2a03c5ff1003201750v1633e69av46b302dadbbc138c@mail.gmail.com> <4BA603B8.4020205@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4BA603B8.4020205@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:55:00 -0000 Marco Marongiu wrote: > Mike Diehn ha scritto: > >> And a follow-up >> date/time. Like, I close the issue, but would like to follow up with the >> client next week to see if the fix I provided is holding them? >> > > Now, THIS is a great, great, great idea!!! > > Ciao > --bronto > This exists in some systems (such as Remedy) - it's configurable, but at our site you can put a case into 'Work-in-progress', or 'waiting on client', or 'waiting on long-term-fix', and for the 'waiting on' attributes you have to set a date, and this extends the SLA for the case. 'Work in progress' triggers the secondary SLA - this means that the customer has had their first response (primary SLA) and is now expecting something to be done. - Richard From Wesley.Simon@lsi.com Mon Mar 22 06:59:56 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MDxugf054567 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 06:59:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Wesley.Simon@lsi.com) Received: from na3sys009aog111.obsmtp.com (na3sys009aog111.obsmtp.com [74.125.149.205]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MDxqr2021947 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 06:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([147.145.40.20]) by na3sys009aob111.postini.com ([74.125.148.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKS6d31yNd4EybIMa0itzu9TxVxVpPvoi+@postini.com; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 06:59:55 PDT Received: from milmhbs0.lsil.com (mhbs.lsil.com [147.145.1.30]) by mail0.lsil.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o2MDxoZ7022764 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 06:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from coscas01.lsi.com (coscas01.co.lsil.com [172.21.36.60]) by milmhbs0.lsil.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o2MDxrh8021919 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 06:59:53 -0700 Received: from cosmail02.lsi.com ([172.21.36.36]) by coscas01.lsi.com ([172.21.36.60]) with mapi; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 07:59:50 -0600 From: "Simon, Wesley" To: "sage-members@sage.org" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 08:00:28 -0600 Thread-Topic: Mentoring, training, developing new admins Thread-Index: AcrJx/BK2CZvh4BKSQyRp3PRshUUvA== Message-ID: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2MDxugf054567 Subject: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:59:56 -0000 Hi everyone, I have a question regarding new administrators. Due to not having a mentor, I have experienced gaps in my knowledge several times. These gaps I speak of were in the fundamentals, not in some new technology. I've been able to fill in the gaps, but only after falling on my face in ignorance and realizing that I should know more about this topic. Not having a more senior admin assisting me is a whole other story that is more about politics, corporate games and isn't relevant to this topic. So, I've been tasked with "leading" two junior admins. They are both application administrators and are getting their feet wet in system administration. I don't want them to go through the same experience I went through. My thoughts are that I should come up with a list of skills that are fundamental to being a system administrator in general and being a system administrator within this particular corporation, assign reading and assign homework or actual tasks. Those are my thoughts. But, I'm not writing this to get my thoughts. I'm writing this to tap into your thoughts and experience. How do you develop people to be admins or better admins? Wesley Simon System Administrator LSI Corporation 3718 N. Rock Road Wichita, Kansas 67226 P (316) 636-8078 F (316) 636-8182 From joel.merrick@gmail.com Mon Mar 22 07:47:11 2010 Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.158]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MElA4A055419 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 07:47:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joel.merrick@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id d23so458163fga.13 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 07:47:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QhFmZ+NtYihz9igspWHTNMojAjlqL1ufnebQ0Lywhjo=; b=SLpxaWbGScrUDGpzZzpOyELdlIMel8j2viAcx58SxRCWP+dI2VakHYZ4L0VMNh2tFb iGd2YAZflaQZRvpHIhmd4P2JNjdGOp0n4yicmPc/FTyi/s4eI7G/X9v1so3gDrnHYTT5 2Yhu2UHRco0PTdSMvQv8qkMTaQJJg1NGlYYOo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=q9BCgbq9Kf7TAhFdXq+Ur1CkJhbXeaSfY8MaFc6FaThDiWo/i/cXyOeNpHIB9rbSBz kQa0GmE8jn7JPxK8/Caf+Yoh6/D93zqFBTJnQJMThGLdIkAflgV2Sy3gFDI/9HkRaJVQ 2iMuyu+TNFqw6UNxS3pUZRyANNibqyhaL4gsk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.173.67 with SMTP id d3mr487705hbf.136.1269269228480; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 07:47:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <42338fbf1003171255q3401fb12t5951023b75991e74@mail.gmail.com> References: <42338fbf1003171255q3401fb12t5951023b75991e74@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:47:08 +0000 Message-ID: <543a57a81003220747r35a02702m6c7cc64393854407@mail.gmail.com> From: Joel Merrick To: "Dustin J. Mitchell" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2MElA4A055419 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Script framework for validating "correctness" of a server? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:47:11 -0000 Do I take it that, from the lack of other replies, people don't generally do this? On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 7:55 PM, Dustin J. Mitchell wrote: > (apologies to asterr; I forgot to copy the list the first time) > > On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 2:32 PM, asterr wrote: >> Many of these checks fall outside the realm of traditional configuration >> management tools like puppet and cfengine (did forward/reverse DNS get >> defined correctly?, are the switch port settings correct?, etc.) > > Actually, we *do* check forward/reverse DNS with cfengine.  As long as > the checks are sufficiently lightweight, I think it makes sense to run > them regularly (daily? hourly? whatever suits you).  Then if the DNS > that worked *fine* the day you installed it craps out the next day, > you'll be properly informed. > > As for the unit tests, I'm a big fan of perl's plain-vanilla test > sytem, TAP.  For example, here's the output of one of Amanda's checks: > > 1..4 > ok 1 - amdump runs successfully > ok 2 - amdump fails with nonexistent client > ok 3 - amdump fails in validate_optstr > ok 4 - planner fail without 'client custom compression with no > compression program specified' > > The first line gives the "plan" -- how many tests should run -- and > then each subsequent line says "ok NN" or "not ok NN" with some > descriptive text.  There are some extra fancinesses (diagnostic output > starts with #, you can skip tests or mark them TODO), but it's all > pretty straightforward. > > If you've got the perl skills, you could just use Test::More and > Test::Harness directly.  But if not, you could easily write shell > scripts to produce this kind of output, and then bundle them all > together with a simple > >  perl -e 'use Test::Harness qw(&runtests); runtests(sort @ARGV);' *.test > > which will format them up nicely.  An example output from Amanda's > tests is here: >  http://code.v.igoro.us/archives/40-Whats-New-in-Amanda-Automated-Tests.html > > Docs: > > http://perldoc.perl.org/Test/More.html > http://perldoc.perl.org/Test/Harness.html > > As a reminder, in Perl TMTOWTDI, so you can stop once you've found > *one* way to do it.  Otherwise, you'll find Perl has very deep rabbit > holes. > > Dustin > > -- > Open Source Storage Engineer > http://www.zmanda.com > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- $ echo "kpfmAdpoofdufevq/dp/vl" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1)-1)/ge' From jboris@adphila.org Mon Mar 22 07:59:41 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MExfqJ055634 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 07:59:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jboris@adphila.org) Received: from chat2.adphila.org (chat2.adphila.org [64.9.9.80]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MExcKc023793 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 07:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw1.adphila.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chat2.adphila.org (Spam & Virus Firewall) with ESMTP id 799A435EF79 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:59:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gw1.adphila.org ([172.19.2.123]) by chat2.adphila.org with ESMTP id 3izN3V0qYMHI8gEr for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:59:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from AOC-MTA by gw1.adphila.org with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:59:32 -0400 Message-Id: <4BA74D8B.2594.002B.0@adphila.org> X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 7.0.1 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:59:23 -0400 From: "John BORIS" To: "Wesley Simon" , "sage-members@sage.org" References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> In-Reply-To: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:59:41 -0000 Wesley, I also progressed through the ranks as a self taught, fall on your face system administrator. But in life before entering the system administration field I was a Journeyman Machinist having served a four year Apprenticeship. During that time I worked under many mentors during the four years and my early years after graduating. One of the tings I learned from that time was my mentor showed me a lot and then gave me practice work and when I did the practice work (and other menial tasks) to his liking I was put on my own with him coming by at times to see how I was doing. Being able to do the work on my own helped me "find me way". Now it is much different leveling the surface ways of a Lathe than configuring a Web Server or installing software, but the same ramifications of botching the job exist. But it is a craft you learn by doing not just reading books. I would have them build a system from spare parts , if available. That way they can learn about your OS issues. When complete they would have their own "Sandbox" to play in. I think to be a system administrator a person needs strong logical thinking skills, some people can learn this but others can't. When you are working on an issue it might be good to let them know your thought process on resolving the issue. One that you went down a lot of blind alleys until you figured it out. Let them know this. I have a programmer that works directly for me and when I solve something quickly she will look and ask "How did you figure that out?" I just don't say I fixed it two years ago, I explain how I came to that conclusion trying to explain the logic, although blind alleys are good to learn from but keeping them to a minimum can speed up the learning process. John J. Boris, Sr. JEN-A-SyS Administrator Archdiocese of Philadelphia "Remember! That light at the end of the tunnel Just might be the headlight of an oncoming train!" >>> "Simon, Wesley" 3/22/2010 10:00 AM >>> Hi everyone, I have a question regarding new administrators. Due to not having a mentor, I have experienced gaps in my knowledge several times. These gaps I speak of were in the fundamentals, not in some new technology. I've been able to fill in the gaps, but only after falling on my face in ignorance and realizing that I should know more about this topic. Not having a more senior admin assisting me is a whole other story that is more about politics, corporate games and isn't relevant to this topic. So, I've been tasked with "leading" two junior admins. They are both application administrators and are getting their feet wet in system administration. I don't want them to go through the same experience I went through. My thoughts are that I should come up with a list of skills that are fundamental to being a system administrator in general and being a system administrator within this particular corporation, assign reading and assign homework or actual tasks. Those are my thoughts. But, I'm not writing this to get my thoughts. I'm writing this to tap into your thoughts and experience. How do you develop people to be admins or better admins? Wesley Simon System Administrator LSI Corporation 3718 N. Rock Road Wichita, Kansas 67226 P (316) 636-8078 F (316) 636-8182 _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From jesus.couto@gmail.com Mon Mar 22 08:22:52 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MFMqX6055900 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 08:22:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.couto@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bw0-f212.google.com (mail-bw0-f212.google.com [209.85.218.212]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MFMnWc024442 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 08:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bwz4 with SMTP id 4so5182089bwz.39 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 08:22:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=89GxnFNdAwEy+hLcIA8qHXmoQIJkPSupbsiQhaxRK7Y=; b=O5xYDpV8VMmY7cXsSN1CXLOGcSm44GjWplD2Fdd9H29cKqSkKBCCeBKA3/TTb8vBaF H9D9Y05ptKP9ihjdLD0BuimkWOMtxMb/GDGZTvSYqYbnkw933tKMpS+9GU/MywTemdeg ZkTgZo15gPPjh3DCutUrP+xyE2owDSSSq0cA4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=VRbPWaio3QwY9xB/09apssY3t1ZFgcSxdYpELYqmyD6TXnPANej11PiHvGMrQhQadY rBVJ/oqu0aQ+eS4/OdCDEB7ABJvwFz/RmZkJISGNrh7dTG1/zddv7l9EZAA04plsBw4N miORmJhsVOoFG/D0/vTK3ScViBM0r6bQ7F/f0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.140.25 with SMTP id g25mr9420107bku.197.1269271360499; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 08:22:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <42338fbf1003171255q3401fb12t5951023b75991e74@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81003220747r35a02702m6c7cc64393854407@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:22:40 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs_Couto?= To: SAGE Members X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=17% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Script framework for validating "correctness" of a server? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:22:53 -0000 On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Jes=FAs Couto wrot= e: > I'm a bit puzzled by : > > > > On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 2:32 PM, asterr wrote: >> >> Many of these checks fall outside the realm of traditional >> configuration >> >> management tools like puppet and cfengine (did forward/reverse DNS ge= t >> >> defined correctly?, are the switch port settings correct?, etc.) >> > >> > > As I think the whole point of puppet, cfengine, etc, would be to make tho= se > checks possible or even unnecessary (by ensuring that yes, all hosts ran = the > same configuration that got you to that desired state). > > Why dont you think those tools fullfill that need? > > ------------------------------ > > Jes=FAs Couto F. > --=20 ------------------------------ Jes=FAs Couto F. From djmitche@gmail.com Mon Mar 22 08:42:07 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MFg640056301 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 08:42:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djmitche@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f48.google.com (mail-pw0-f48.google.com [209.85.160.48]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MFg3UA024961 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 08:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pwi7 with SMTP id 7so3776248pwi.35 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 08:41:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KvxvcE2DK0xNEybBF78mwoJfn1Xi3KDk8Y0XJPab4OA=; b=uGQUfOexbTgQjSD9J+ad+VNB0yQrGyQJ0hzqahXxvzJ1g7NdqMBjinrx1qCPdS3voT DA9jGrCEBo2DUIcTjuW+pkQcHf/zF5fVwYfDKkjuNiC+XLibNmVI57Ww7woLjeqqZYNr PuWSx3espuvyu0hMTy68An9cQN1wkGs7B84sM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=aQ64/WC4yjjm2iuhH7EJn4InH1GZp12/v9BUa3NZF+Z++P3v6770mxGnnf1mZXxKcE Pd/krGMo2SS9rVpW5Ldvn6w0gSDCRyUB5deGb9eEzyXNljqSGCzwnxhTK+pNOzgW/a8E 4VlVOAYIYG8bbazh4dDXJQvulhb10qvkg0Rdo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: djmitche@gmail.com Received: by 10.141.15.17 with SMTP id s17mr2163749rvi.14.1269270709824; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 08:11:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:11:49 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: f48706bb3d210ccb Message-ID: <42338fbf1003220811i1899c184q23365d7cb48194d1@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dustin J. Mitchell" To: "Simon, Wesley" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=6% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2MFg640056301 Cc: "sage-members@sage.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:42:07 -0000 On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 9:00 AM, Simon, Wesley wrote: > Those are my thoughts.  But, I'm not writing this to get my thoughts.  I'm writing this to tap into your thoughts and experience.  How do you develop people to be admins or better admins? At one point I was asked to take a helpdesk person who had no real interest in administration (aside from the bigger paycheck) and make him ready in 6mo. I put together a list of about 40 tasks for him, ranging from simple (managing users) to complex (building and testing an MSI for a new package, installing and configuring a new DC, etc.). We already had pretty good documentation, so I told him that he should use the documentation and the web, and ask questions when he got stuck, while working through these tasks. I also assigned a lot of day-to-day things to him. I consulted the well-known sysadmin books out there to make sure I had an exhaustive list of the "intangibles" of systems administration, and wove those lessons into work on the tasks. When would be a good time in the academic year to add a new DC? How will you monitor this new application's performance? What sorts of backups does this data require, and how will you test them? If you scale this manual installation process to 100 desktops, what will the management workload look like, and how can you minimize it? The whole project didn't work, largely because he never really "got" the fact that sysadmin was a profession and required independent thought. Every day, on every novel task, he would ask "what do I type." I later learned that this is characteristic of a beginner in a field: focused on task completion, rather than learning. So basically, he wasn't ready to be the lead sysadmin at this institution. Thanks, management! So, I failed, but I think I did a decent job of preparing for the mentoring! Dustin From danstoner@gmail.com Mon Mar 22 09:04:42 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MG4gcO056519 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:04:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danstoner@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gy0-f176.google.com (mail-gy0-f176.google.com [209.85.160.176]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MG4dR6025532 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gyd8 with SMTP id 8so2780077gyd.35 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:04:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=1NSPNuBNurGzybaB8nS+CKpygXYv1Cu/7Sj1viWulcY=; b=M4rseMo4GMOPbUlZhRwJwfoJ7bVL+c8VcDEYnN9wpmMh5OT6MNGRgKs7KQAmyOX7b8 7c1htqUJCZG0GUyf7QdgRMgBhkdBs4n/pLJTGmCdnyjbPahvQ3KE/vgj/xd6GHWl9hMI 2/6nhiFUemz3Q19/C0Oh2Tn9zBSlPyFTINQbU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=AVRTEc8dBpyQpg0rvVQTZ2mjS5RsHPipfoaoQC0fE5RHvzdf3C9iYtmUIMX84uQYhL bmDZV0nqgP+agDO2++HWFd0ZJgVgd7WXq73OSgsPQNTs95vplp5jKwMgdmeDK2B1UvOl nvjhgUHBBzk3J8WahfgNhPrIGtqvsrYXuH88c= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.48.30 with SMTP id v30mr4449492ybv.162.1269273873548; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:04:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:04:33 -0400 Message-ID: <260cfef1003220904l6bdd44cam6805d093612e4ea5@mail.gmail.com> From: Dan Stoner To: "Simon, Wesley" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=8% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: "sage-members@sage.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:04:42 -0000 "You are not a real sysadmin until you've broken something in Production." - Dan Stoner Make them read The Practice of System and Network Administration... it's like receiving a mind-meld containing 3-years worth of experience. Make them participate in a community where they are exposed to other real sysadmins. This could be membership such as SAGE, or something local like the group of geeks who meet once a month to talk shop. - Dan Stoner On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Simon, Wesley wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I have a question regarding new administrators. Due to not having a > mentor, I have experienced gaps in my knowledge several times. These gaps I > speak of were in the fundamentals, not in some new technology. I've been > able to fill in the gaps, but only after falling on my face in ignorance and > realizing that I should know more about this topic. Not having a more > senior admin assisting me is a whole other story that is more about > politics, corporate games and isn't relevant to this topic. > > So, I've been tasked with "leading" two junior admins. They are both > application administrators and are getting their feet wet in system > administration. I don't want them to go through the same experience I went > through. > > My thoughts are that I should come up with a list of skills that are > fundamental to being a system administrator in general and being a system > administrator within this particular corporation, assign reading and assign > homework or actual tasks. > > Those are my thoughts. But, I'm not writing this to get my thoughts. I'm > writing this to tap into your thoughts and experience. How do you develop > people to be admins or better admins? > > > > > > Wesley Simon > System Administrator > LSI Corporation > 3718 N. Rock Road > Wichita, Kansas 67226 > > P (316) 636-8078 > F (316) 636-8182 > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From sage-list-psa@otoh.org Mon Mar 22 09:22:22 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MGMLVR056761 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:22:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sage-list-psa@otoh.org) Received: from pmon001.zetta.net (ssg-corp.zetta.net [74.114.124.9]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MGMI9x025987 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bilby.zetta.net (bilby.zetta.net [10.10.1.16]) by pmon001.zetta.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91BB520001C90; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:22:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: by bilby.zetta.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 39F75C50E2B4A; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:22:13 -0700 From: Paul Armstrong To: "Simon, Wesley" Message-ID: <20100322162213.GA8607@otoh.org> References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: "sage-members@sage.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:22:22 -0000 At 2010-03-22T08:00-0600, Simon, Wesley wrote: > I'm writing this to tap into your thoughts and experience. How do you > develop people to be admins or better admins? Giving them things to do and then reviewing them with the admin in question. Because automation is so important to our field, I always push the mantra of "if it's not automated, it's not done" and then review their code and spend the time to explain not just what should be done but why it should be done. The single most useful tool chain I've found for this is having everything done by the group checked into a revision control system and then using _pre_checkin_ code review (in my case my preference lies with Review Board). This allows you to go through the code and comment line by line as well as commenting on the code as a whole. And you get the benefit of being able to go back to it later. Of course, it's good for senior sysadmins too as we all have ways in which we can improve and sometimes important things are overlooked. While it may seem like it slows people down at the start, once you really get going everything runs a lot faster (as you're picking up lots of errors before you submit so you do the clean up in the code rather than an emergency change request to fix broken code that's shipped). Code style guides help too as they allow concentrating on what the code is doing rather than how many spaces you should be indenting and whether braces are on the same line or a new line after an if. You also get to build patterns and anti-patterns into your style guide so people don't get caught by the tricks of various languages. e.g. if(4 == counter) instead of if(counter = 4) Did you notice the missing = in the second statement? Neither did the compiler. You also get to squash the less obvious gotchas like not using ISO dates (YYYY-MM-DD, mm/dd and dd/mm are way too easy to confuse and on a technical level, they don't sort properly either), 24 hour time, time zones (was that change meant to be 4:00 in the morning or afternoon and -0800 or +0200?), UTC (don't get bit twice a year with daylight savings) and the metric system (nothing's worse than seeing your router die because someone set the alarm to 120 instead of 50). While most languages have style guides which you can just pick up and use wholesale, I generally find having an overarching style guide which requires certain behavior that overrides language specific guides you may import to be worth while. That way you don't have all your python with 4 spaces and your perl with 2 or braces on the same line in C but not in Java. Post mortems are also useful teaching tools, particularly the having a sections "what could have been done better this time" and "how can this be avoided in the future". And, of course, if you have something that's broken and but isn't critical, letting them fix it and just sitting by and watching (and providing hints when they need it) is invaluable. They get to be hands on and you get to stop them turning it into a major emergency. Books that should be on their reading list: * The Practice of System and Network Administration * TCP/IP Illustrated * Advanced Programming in the UNIX environment * DNS and BIND * Books for languages you use on your site (Ruby, Python, Perl, Java, C, Bourne (Again) Shell, etc) * The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System * Solaris Internals: Solaris 10 and OpenSolaris Kernel Architecture * Solaris Performance and Tools While the last 3 may seem to be OS specific, they're invaluable no matter if you're using those operating systems or not. Understanding what an inode is and how kernel locks and IPC work are important parts of systems administration. > Wesley Simon > System Administrator > LSI Corporation You might want to get a non-work mail for SAGE list postings... Paul From sage-list-psa@otoh.org Mon Mar 22 09:28:52 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MGSq7r056853 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:28:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sage-list-psa@otoh.org) Received: from pmon001.zetta.net (ssg-corp.zetta.net [74.114.124.9]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MGSnti026161 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bilby.zetta.net (bilby.zetta.net [10.10.1.16]) by pmon001.zetta.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8122520001C90; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:28:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: by bilby.zetta.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2B983C50E2B4A; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:28:44 -0700 From: Paul Armstrong To: "Simon, Wesley" Message-ID: <20100322162843.GB8607@otoh.org> References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> <20100322162213.GA8607@otoh.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100322162213.GA8607@otoh.org> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: "sage-members@sage.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:28:52 -0000 At 2010-03-22T09:22-0700, Paul Armstrong wrote: > At 2010-03-22T08:00-0600, Simon, Wesley wrote: > > I'm writing this to tap into your thoughts and experience. How do you > > develop people to be admins or better admins? And one other thing I forgot, regular brain dumps and good docs. We have a training session once a week that ranges on everything from how our databases are configured and why to Kerberos internals. This helps limit the problem of having all your knowledge in too few heads. Paul From jack@coats.org Mon Mar 22 09:43:58 2010 Received: from smarthost.csg.iadfw.net (smarthost.csg.iadfw.net [216.39.194.17]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MGhvRr057239 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:43:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@coats.org) Received: from [216.39.194.26] (helo=vsd.csg.iadfw.net) by smarthost.csg.iadfw.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NtkjL-0003oa-8v for sage-members@mailman.sage.org; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:43:55 -0500 Received: (qmail 18187 invoked by uid 11429); 22 Mar 2010 11:43:55 -0500 Received: from mail-yx0-f173.google.com by vsd.csg.iadfw.net (envelope-from , uid 2020) with qmail-scanner-2.06st (perlscan: 2.06st. Clear:RC:0(209.85.210.173):. Processed in 0.016898 secs); 22 Mar 2010 16:43:55 -0000 Received: from mail-yx0-f173.google.com (209.85.210.173) by 216.39.195.133 with (RC4-MD5 encrypted) SMTP; 22 Mar 2010 11:43:55 -0500 Received: by yxe3 with SMTP id 3so3320280yxe.27 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:43:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.176.9 with SMTP id y9mr4679539ybe.242.1269276236116; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:43:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <260cfef1003220904l6bdd44cam6805d093612e4ea5@mail.gmail.com> References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> <260cfef1003220904l6bdd44cam6805d093612e4ea5@mail.gmail.com> From: "Jack@coats.org" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:43:36 -0500 Message-ID: <48555fa41003220943v767fec95mb1061fba69fd216a@mail.gmail.com> To: Sage Members Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:43:58 -0000 My first day as a unix sysadmin, I issued 'shutdown' on a production server thinking I was on a workstation (I was on remotely). ... Some days life sucks for rookies. When I was a IBM VM systems geek, a guy and I took down a 2000 user mainframe because we had an address wrong when we put on a 'fix' during production time (rather than waiting for a maintenance window in 3 or 4 weeks). One day I walked into our head sysadmins office after he got a reaming for something, and on his white board in big bold letters was: "It's UPTIME Stupid!". And from a user perspective, that is the right answer. When a VM systems geek, I started out getting phone calls nightly, within 6 months I got the rate down to 1 or 2 every 6 months. How? Automating... taking the responsibility of actions out of the hands of operators that 'put their time in and go home'. Their main job was to watch to see if something broke then call someone else. ... By pushing the decision making to the folks that care (responsible users, sysadmin types, etc) and re-designing our software maintenance methodology, it pushed down our un-scheduled outages and user (especially user management) satisfaction. Not that we got paid more for it, but we knew 'life was better for our users'. ... Folks at one major oil company criticized me for not focusing on supporting 'knowledgeable users'. My focus was to support the lowest common denominator, in my case then it was the overworked 'secretary'. If I could make their life better, everyones life got better. In the short term it was a hard sell, in the long term, no one could argue with the results. Education is costly, not having it costs more. ... For some 'school or hard knocks' works best and is cheapest, for me 'formal classes' followed by 'real world' application (not in the lab but with live users and data) worked the best. But learning depends on the student, not the instructor, to see that it works for them. ... sorry for the asides ... Jack On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 11:04 AM, Dan Stoner wrote: > "You are not a real sysadmin until you've broken something in Production." > - Dan Stoner > > Make them read The Practice of System and Network Administration... it's > like receiving a mind-meld containing 3-years worth of experience. > > Make them participate in a community where they are exposed to other real > sysadmins. This could be membership such as SAGE, or something local like > the group of geeks who meet once a month to talk shop. > > - Dan Stoner > > > On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Simon, Wesley >wrote: > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I have a question regarding new administrators. Due to not having a > > mentor, I have experienced gaps in my knowledge several times. These > gaps I > > speak of were in the fundamentals, not in some new technology. I've been > > able to fill in the gaps, but only after falling on my face in ignorance > and > > realizing that I should know more about this topic. Not having a more > > senior admin assisting me is a whole other story that is more about > > politics, corporate games and isn't relevant to this topic. > > > > So, I've been tasked with "leading" two junior admins. They are both > > application administrators and are getting their feet wet in system > > administration. I don't want them to go through the same experience I > went > > through. > > > > My thoughts are that I should come up with a list of skills that are > > fundamental to being a system administrator in general and being a system > > administrator within this particular corporation, assign reading and > assign > > homework or actual tasks. > > > > Those are my thoughts. But, I'm not writing this to get my thoughts. > I'm > > writing this to tap into your thoughts and experience. How do you > develop > > people to be admins or better admins? > > > > Wesley Simon > > System Administrator > > LSI Corporation > > 3718 N. Rock Road > > Wichita, Kansas 67226 > > > > P (316) 636-8078 > > F (316) 636-8182 > > > > > From halamiller@yahoo.com Mon Mar 22 09:45:14 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MGjEa9057305 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:45:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from halamiller@yahoo.com) Received: from web33402.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web33402.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.206.134]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id o2MGj64s000190 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 7892 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Mar 2010 16:38:21 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1269275901; bh=zEnoEKfv+83AxwTh+5BPWsIjCvwpNOX7LqPHfSfcgOw=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=30LoTTHcuqv7NkwyJBQ45cWr+uqQj9z/y2ifOqzEeO77CZYZWqG8TXiZv1pVTJBffJavbxVFyR6gUmltVWGmJvP2TjUXUlK9l9D5p5va6qarVqu/eg5p97uc1DimJx3WFWApt+ziCSyv27U9b3zwR+/VIjau9vZViwBM9bCzaBE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=f2AgZe6UcRxwAf1mVr6ew/WkpMgU+T5PURDLxac0P2mUgKUuCC8bYYZ5nD/Z+oESRxPHzz1daR2lx+ag6OvCatwRJlN4f0G1ttnKvuaWuL/gB9HLRBNyhSZeZyO+AOao/sqJosFXtuH0clJqkglSeiNBdOrlaszFVq+BBSqcEnc=; Message-ID: <306499.7372.qm@web33402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: pA.TXCEVM1nB_26NifhrkUvSXhSjpRCxVt1sSTDZ_J6MqD7v5aZc0z9Ce1eQBf7oKPARNBGTajnD9jn3MhKAl9BHgbclnSjjKNxLnlKvIERubK990zZue9jiyiwXPNKoDKstX2T4Zd30t_wtYw7YqW3GDn1AIEYcIXp2sUeAcCQV8yUMjeDP9mXGnKnkQZpagjCWF8fWvqjXkHxHSXO4gtBTWl40o7rdXtv.HkXSutNNnm1c6gGYlrl7UFKIRYK7l94EXWcNK4dc5yqlkBmuZoCVLOQK6TxHmJzUGis9p1r5pxYCnxQfFG_jwlGwoqCCfF1l6FTIL0HGiNugxL3qIaFobwwpBrQc6i70ZevbKtJ5IhMFbpUDYWo4Fy6yf2AyZ0XN7bIhvLaQlNE- Received: from [74.221.15.64] by web33402.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:38:20 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/10.0.8 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:38:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Hal Miller To: "sage-members@sage.org" , WesleySimon In-Reply-To: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-DCC-x.dcc-servers-Metrics: voyager 104; Body=0 Fuz1=0 Fuz2=0 rep=5% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2MGjEa9057305 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:45:15 -0000 Above all else, keep your hands in your pockets. Meaning, your student will learn better when actually putting hands on the keyboard, and the more you prevent yourself from actually doing, the better you'll end up verbalizing what's going on. HM --- On Mon, 3/22/10, Simon, Wesley wrote: > From: Simon, Wesley > Subject: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins > To: "sage-members@sage.org" > Date: Monday, March 22, 2010, 7:00 AM > > Hi everyone, > > I have a question regarding new administrators.  Due > to not having a mentor, I have experienced gaps in my > knowledge several times.  These gaps I speak of were in > the fundamentals, not in some new technology.  I've > been able to fill in the gaps, but only after falling on my > face in ignorance and realizing that I should know more > about this topic.  Not having a more senior admin > assisting me is a whole other story that is more about > politics, corporate games and isn't relevant to this topic. > > So, I've been tasked with "leading" two junior > admins.  They are both application administrators and > are getting their feet wet in system administration.  I > don't want them to go through the same experience I went > through.  > > My thoughts are that I should come up with a list of skills > that are fundamental to being a system administrator in > general and being a system administrator within this > particular corporation, assign reading and assign homework > or actual tasks. > > Those are my thoughts.  But, I'm not writing this to > get my thoughts.  I'm writing this to tap into your > thoughts and experience.  How do you develop people to > be admins or better admins? > > > > > > Wesley Simon > System Administrator > LSI Corporation > 3718 N. Rock Road > Wichita, Kansas 67226 > > P (316) 636-8078 > F (316) 636-8182 > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From kacoroski@gmail.com Mon Mar 22 09:54:56 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MGsubb057407 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:54:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kacoroski@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bw0-f212.google.com (mail-bw0-f212.google.com [209.85.218.212]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MGsqeG002000 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bwz4 with SMTP id 4so5284248bwz.39 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:54:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iHjjU7vfaul2lKT6rw6BvfNtiI3wCezJENZrK4X/JSQ=; b=YDFE871LBjCcQ3SDuLuo1/VEcstOFFeWLweF5xJlrj4uydMflEnDta1P9SdCX02TWi FKjMhnHcDKvVeY8HUHbS3Tr/AoJwL5dTGvLIZGnUbeKqFu2k8rPq1nhbnJ1mhSm+JQZ1 ZPJacqXli6/uEuMaEUzzKZve53yYQYW0MBrfI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=IizWCd7Cjyvd+IYsF8wEPE7BdLmk84BxGKB7BZ+T+ktP3YOxE6qSAuByAclESe0gRy 24BjiR07gNR0XyjxWo4rMDi+Iwwnjiuj8cNkHSSthKNuZkKqGycLkV5UhgLhiqivUuMA 1wfnh7aAgxq1TlQDXoKHAlySTXCA6TVjhvBRk= Received: by 10.204.73.143 with SMTP id q15mr3622894bkj.184.1269276874162; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.2.9.12] ([152.157.64.243]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 13sm2513980bwz.11.2010.03.22.09.54.32 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BA7A0C6.3020806@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:54:30 -0700 From: Ski Kacoroski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Simon, Wesley" References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> In-Reply-To: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=17% Cc: "sage-members@sage.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:54:56 -0000 On 03/22/2010 07:00 AM, Simon, Wesley wrote: > > Those are my thoughts. But, I'm not writing this to get my thoughts. > I'm writing this to tap into your thoughts and experience. How do > you develop people to be admins or better admins? Wesley, What I did was to first give them a test machine where they could play without fear of hurting production. They had to load the machine, configure various services, and then destroy it by accident (e.g. rm -rf / ) and then start again. The idea was to get them confident in what they could do, learn what happens when a command is mistyped (e.g. the world does not end and we can recover from a backup), and generally get a feel for the platform and commands we used. Second was to put them on the helpdesk where they would take calls and the ones they could not answer, we would work through together. By the end of the week, they could answer many of the routine calls by themselves. All the sysadmins said this week before touching production was extremely valuable to them as it gave them confidence in the areas they could do and knowledge of where some of their limits were. They would often go back to the test machine to try things out before touching a production machine just to be sure they understood the process. I did find out that a lot depended on the person. Some folks just naturally like to play with things and learn about them (the above method works great with them), Other folks want and need a lot more direction and, IMHO, do not make good system admins because they can only do the part of system administration that we can automate. cheers, ski -- "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it connected to the entire universe" John Muir Chris "Ski" Kacoroski, kacoroski@gmail.com, 206-501-9803 or ski98033 on most IM services From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Mon Mar 22 10:16:14 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MHGEh5057748 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:16:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MHGAbO002585 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o2MHG9YQ002732 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4BA7A5D9.4070104@bio.umass.edu> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:16:09 -0400 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sage-members@sage.org" References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> <42338fbf1003220811i1899c184q23365d7cb48194d1@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <42338fbf1003220811i1899c184q23365d7cb48194d1@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:16:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:16:14 -0000 Dustin J. Mitchell wrote: > On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 9:00 AM, Simon, Wesley wrote: > >> Those are my thoughts. But, I'm not writing this to get my thoughts. I'm writing this to tap into your thoughts and experience. How do you develop people to be admins or better admins? >> > > At one point I was asked to take a helpdesk person who had no real > interest in administration (aside from the bigger paycheck) and make > him ready in 6mo. > > The whole project didn't work, largely because he never really "got" > the fact that sysadmin was a profession and required independent > thought. Every day, on every novel task, he would ask "what do I > type." I later learned that this is characteristic of a beginner in a > field: focused on task completion, rather than learning. So > basically, he wasn't ready to be the lead sysadmin at this > institution. Thanks, management! > > So, I failed, but I think I did a decent job of preparing for the mentoring! I wouldn't say you failed, Dustin. It basically shows that being a sysadmin has to come from within. The person has to want it and put the effort into becoming a sysadmin. To some degree, it's like the early scenes in the 1970's Kung Fu TV series. With a group of potential apprentices sitting in front of the master, several are simply told to leave. Only a few are invited to stay. That based on a few simple observations of attitude and understanding. These have potential. Those didn't. It's unfortunate when you don't have that option and must take the apprentices regardless. The world of networks and computers is and has been changing rapidly for some time. A sysadmin should have an innate interest in it and know how to learn. There will always be something new that has to be dealt with. Good sysadmins typically have professional training/education in their background. They have some understanding of computers from the chip level up through machine language to higher level programming languages, OS concepts, etc. It's not necessarily that they use that everyday, but it influences their understanding of higher level constructs and application software. Degrees and/or minors in math, computer science, engineering, linguistics, or ... can be helpful, in part for the knowledge and in part for the discipline and logic. If an apprentice comes in without the proper attitude, aptitude and/or background, I don't see how that can be made up in 6 months or a year. If the background is the only thing missing, even that can take years, depending on how much is missing. If either of the other two are missing, it's probably not going to work out. -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From cmc@math.hmc.edu Mon Mar 22 10:34:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MHYWrM057990 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:34:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cmc@math.hmc.edu) Received: from esme.math.hmc.edu (esme.Math.HMC.Edu [134.173.34.194]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MHYTaL003009 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vosill.math.hmc.edu (vosill.math.hmc.edu [134.173.34.88]) by esme.math.hmc.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o2MHYJeU012253 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:34:19 -0700 Received: from vosill.math.hmc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vosill.math.hmc.edu (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o2MHYIim008361; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:34:18 -0700 From: "Claire M. Connelly" Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Department of Mathematics To: Jim Hickstein In-reply-to: <4BA58E6E.7010802@jxh.com> References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <89058298-4455-4B9C-B56F-D0E966410400@conundrum.com> <19364.53439.823781.839120@ecoplant.swarpa.net> <2a03c5ff1003201750v1633e69av46b302dadbbc138c@mail.gmail.com> <4BA58E6E.7010802@jxh.com> Comments: In-reply-to message from Jim Hickstein dated "Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:11:42 -0500." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3; GNU Emacs 22.1.1 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:34:18 -0700 Message-ID: <8360.1269279258@vosill.math.hmc.edu> X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Claire M. Connelly" List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:34:33 -0000 "JH" == Jim Hickstein "MD" == Mike Diehn MD> The block-until date is brilliant! JH> Heh heh. Thanks! (And to Josh for bringing it up.) I've JH> never seen it anywhere else, and I miss it. Hiveminder (http://hiveminder.com/) has block-until dates (``hide until'') but not times. They also do due dates, priorities, scheduleable repeats (including stacking), dependencies, and so on. Hiveminder is definitely worth a look although it's more of a task-management system than a ticket system. (It's a web-based service from the same people who do Request Tracker.) Claire *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Claire Connelly cmc@math.hmc.edu System Administrator (909) 621-8754 Department of Mathematics Harvey Mudd College *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* For System News: http://www.math.hmc.edu/computing/news/ or http://twitter.com/hmcmathcomp/. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From john@stoffel.org Mon Mar 22 10:47:01 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MHl1aC058217 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:47:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@stoffel.org) Received: from mycroft.westnet.com (Mycroft.westnet.com [216.187.52.7]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MHkv8c003317 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jfsnew.stoffel.org (97-95-180-151.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com [97.95.180.151]) (authenticated bits=0) by mycroft.westnet.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o2MHknXB004155 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:46:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by jfsnew.stoffel.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 147365AF09; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:46:49 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19367.44296.948087.949762@stoffel.org> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:46:48 -0400 From: "John Stoffel" To: Hal Miller In-Reply-To: <306499.7372.qm@web33402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> <306499.7372.qm@web33402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.0.9 under Emacs 22.3.1 (i486-pc-linux-gnu) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.96rc1 at mycroft X-Virus-Status: Clean X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: "sage-members@sage.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:47:01 -0000 Hal> Above all else, keep your hands in your pockets. Meaning, your Hal> student will learn better when actually putting hands on the Hal> keyboard, and the more you prevent yourself from actually doing, Hal> the better you'll end up verbalizing what's going on. This is *the* hardest thing for me to do. Even with my kids. Esp with my kids. I'd make a lousy teacher. :] John From jboris@adphila.org Mon Mar 22 10:54:05 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MHs4AX058280 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:54:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jboris@adphila.org) Received: from chat2.adphila.org (chat2.adphila.org [64.9.9.80]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MHs1uN003524 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw1.adphila.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chat2.adphila.org (Spam & Virus Firewall) with ESMTP id 440513606A3 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:53:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gw1.adphila.org ([172.19.2.123]) by chat2.adphila.org with ESMTP id HWDOCcPhisDoNmLX for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:53:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from AOC-MTA by gw1.adphila.org with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:53:55 -0400 Message-Id: <4BA77667.2594.002B.0@adphila.org> X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 7.0.1 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:53:43 -0400 From: "John BORIS" To: "Chris Hoogendyk" , "sage-members@sage.org" References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> <42338fbf1003220811i1899c184q23365d7cb48194d1@mail.gmail.com> <4BA7A5D9.4070104@bio.umass.edu> In-Reply-To: <4BA7A5D9.4070104@bio.umass.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:54:05 -0000 Chris, I agree. To be a sysadmin you have to be able to think on your feet and be willing to put in the effort. The Kung Fu analogy is a good one. Going back to my apprentice machinist days I often wondered how we were selected for the program. We all had to take an 8 hour exam for the program and 52 of use were offered the position. At a reunion we all thought back to the selection and who fell out of the program and the guys that fell out were the ones that had to be led by the hand each time. You are also right that the person has to have an understanding of Programing languages and not necessarily a whiz at programing in all languages but what I call a working knowledge of programing languages. At least with that they will be able to learn scripting and other tools needed to get the various jobs accomplished. John J. Boris, Sr. JEN-A-SyS Administrator Archdiocese of Philadelphia "Remember! That light at the end of the tunnel Just might be the headlight of an oncoming train!" >>> Chris Hoogendyk 3/22/2010 1:16 PM >>> It basically shows that being a sysadmin has to come from within. The person has to want it and put the effort into becoming a sysadmin. To some degree, it's like the early scenes in the 1970's Kung Fu TV series. With a group of potential apprentices sitting in front of the master, several are simply told to leave. Only a few are invited to stay. That based on a few simple observations of attitude and understanding. These have potential. Those didn't. If an apprentice comes in without the proper attitude, aptitude and/or background, I don't see how that can be made up in 6 months or a year. If the background is the only thing missing, even that can take years, depending on how much is missing. If either of the other two are missing, it's probably not going to work out. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From lists@ryanp.com Mon Mar 22 10:59:15 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MHxFVD058337 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:59:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@ryanp.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.158]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MHxBJR003752 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 22so828118fge.11 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.87.15.19 with SMTP id s19mr5922183fgi.0.1269280748363; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sarge.tripadvisor.com ([146.115.38.3]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 4sm4937737fge.13.2010.03.22.10.59.06 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Ryan Pugatch Message-ID: <4BA7B010.2060404@linux.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:59:44 -0400 From: Ryan Pugatch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100301 Fedora/3.0.3-1.fc12 Lightning/1.0b2pre Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Simon, Wesley" References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> In-Reply-To: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=13% Cc: "sage-members@sage.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: rpug@linux.com List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:59:16 -0000 On 03/22/2010 10:00 AM, Simon, Wesley wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I have a question regarding new administrators. Due to not having a mentor, I have experienced gaps in my knowledge several times. These gaps I speak of were in the fundamentals, not in some new technology. I've been able to fill in the gaps, but only after falling on my face in ignorance and realizing that I should know more about this topic. Not having a more senior admin assisting me is a whole other story that is more about politics, corporate games and isn't relevant to this topic. > > So, I've been tasked with "leading" two junior admins. They are both application administrators and are getting their feet wet in system administration. I don't want them to go through the same experience I went through. > > My thoughts are that I should come up with a list of skills that are fundamental to being a system administrator in general and being a system administrator within this particular corporation, assign reading and assign homework or actual tasks. > > Those are my thoughts. But, I'm not writing this to get my thoughts. I'm writing this to tap into your thoughts and experience. How do you develop people to be admins or better admins? > > > > The best sysadmins are the ones you can assign various tasks to and they can figure it out themselves. They should use you as a resource just as they would use Google. Ryan From allan@cookie.org Mon Mar 22 11:01:30 2010 Received: from smtp.ufl.edu (smtp04.osg.ufl.edu [128.227.74.71]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MI1T9g058405 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:01:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allan@cookie.org) Received: from macallan.fcla.edu (macallan.fcla.edu [128.227.228.147]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.ufl.edu (8.14.0/8.14.0/3.0.0) with ESMTP id o2MI1Rp3010228 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:01:28 -0400 Message-ID: <4BA7B077.2050003@cookie.org> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:01:27 -0400 From: Allan West User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> <306499.7372.qm@web33402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <19367.44296.948087.949762@stoffel.org> In-Reply-To: <19367.44296.948087.949762@stoffel.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2010-03-22_13:2010-02-06, 2010-03-22, 2010-03-22 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1003220203 X-Spam-Level: * X-UFL-Spam-Level: * Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 18:01:30 -0000 On 3/22/10 1:46 PM, John Stoffel wrote: > > Hal> Above all else, keep your hands in your pockets. Meaning, your > Hal> student will learn better when actually putting hands on the > Hal> keyboard, and the more you prevent yourself from actually doing, > Hal> the better you'll end up verbalizing what's going on. > > This is *the* hardest thing for me to do. Even with my kids. Esp > with my kids. I'd make a lousy teacher. :] > > John Oh, but if you can teach yourself, it can be so rewarding! Stand behind and watch while directing; the person who has asked you how (meaning will you please) to do the same something six times will have the light bulb come on over their head, and you're free. If you do that a few times on different issues, the light bulb might even _stay_ on over their head, and they'll be empowered to figure out the next answer themselves. The most remarkable example was the professor with the manual typewriter who asked questions, learned how the computer lab worked, and embraced teaching with technology in a single 16-week semester. My mom, who went from teaching in the classroom to being a "media specialist" was a close second. I went off to college and she was handed a computer lab because "it's media, right?" We called and emailed back and forth, and she learned. From merc248@gmail.com Mon Mar 22 11:29:46 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f42.google.com (mail-ww0-f42.google.com [74.125.82.42]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MITjr0058883 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:29:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from merc248@gmail.com) Received: by wwb31 with SMTP id 31so1627866wwb.1 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:29:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=cIXbm59c2H5sxyUz1w4Z/XabE3kJhwoV0uBvz2u8Vuo=; b=fhujpqYA9pDTZNCuL5vJntaB5bjHBp00mnEEYk2H+Okby5vHMu9YTIH7zVhSKTtcG9 hEV8FZA/Xyt8ehI441NohPcSsoWlIaZ/JFNytTz/GDVLXzM4Dzf/3yOmTiuQ3ZeDR4CB L3ha0/e6jKYjdR3RTG9H+ivbHK7BYGgVeK9SI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=pqCSnLyrPxmTYPttJi+W5+kUEyxlX18OgB+sRC0O2ca0/YWeO1sK3QUb5450wAkfr6 Jkhw5JWwcQX8uLSPUQfJZSAWypxhqOP18ujeonhVoXW98G5KRW6dyFp9aNGJsoufXD+k Hkl7wjUS9m0TBhjCirxs3mnJDgGaakOwoaHTY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.85.2 with SMTP id t2mr1599158wee.172.1269282579527; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:29:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4BA7B077.2050003@cookie.org> References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> <306499.7372.qm@web33402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <19367.44296.948087.949762@stoffel.org> <4BA7B077.2050003@cookie.org> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:29:39 -0700 Message-ID: <2444fd7e1003221129s44cac206v565a4417145530e@mail.gmail.com> From: "merc248@gmail.com" To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 18:29:46 -0000 Sorry to sort of veer the topic a little, but I'm somewhat on the other end of this issue: I'm a junior sysadmin who used to administer a 10-15 server + 80 desktop environment by myself (with occasional assistance from a contracted network admin), and am now working in a 500+ server environment. I've been seeking a mentor for a while, but whenever I ask a question or someone assigns me a ticket, the other sysadmins end up doing the work for me instead. I'm getting stage fright from looking at the open tickets, because it's not clear which ones are claimed, which ones are long term projects, or which ones are only for senior sysadmins to deal with. Ticketing system is usually first come first serve, which means that I only realistically have 30 seconds to claim a ticket before it's claimed by someone else. I'm not sure how to survive in such an environment; so far, I've been reading SAGE booklets and reading various stuff online, but I don't know if this even prepares me for taking on tickets. How do I cope when I don't have the "hands in pocket" sysadmins to guide me? Thanks, -- ian From djmitche@gmail.com Mon Mar 22 11:47:24 2010 Received: from mail-iw0-f172.google.com (mail-iw0-f172.google.com [209.85.223.172]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MIlOsA059269 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:47:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djmitche@gmail.com) Received: by iwn2 with SMTP id 2so2511751iwn.22 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:47:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=Awo0+fsmVnyZ27x+GaXAkma9a5MYQY+7rlspzWwH1bk=; b=sfHOlfA0zowQkF7qGlecnem15xq9U4ZMKngSw87srRCGaXGUNk9xoid6/b1nwrxC2b 4nbkaHEEVYsqRg76QewAREuge+SqDT0/0kiWRF7Wal1kMFgSwKRq3lJ5+6sHy4f+nkOj F/7VXYon0sHO12WSBE4aTegNFfZnCzTXbRjY8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=JGb02HeGEh5JdoM3e8axOOH3I6bo0aJ8Qilv9LY/560C2WlvNt0aZCwzBHBgdAbm4i 8m/GkNiU3/1oyb3dw+DA/0/1nSxrE+yVexWyK9RFq18XsXrbOoESnnj6ferQxnDkplJA 98ueX2XChlDPPK3XUjmkd9QNpAflonv0FK0mg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: djmitche@gmail.com Received: by 10.231.159.207 with SMTP id k15mr917378ibx.52.1269283638645; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:47:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <48555fa41003220943v767fec95mb1061fba69fd216a@mail.gmail.com> References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> <260cfef1003220904l6bdd44cam6805d093612e4ea5@mail.gmail.com> <48555fa41003220943v767fec95mb1061fba69fd216a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:47:18 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: e1e9192b82c23f60 Message-ID: <42338fbf1003221147k2dc4b7d0jc70bfe017174b772@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dustin J. Mitchell" To: "Jack@coats.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 18:47:24 -0000 On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Jack@coats.org wrote: > My first day as a unix sysadmin, I issued 'shutdown' on a production server > thinking I was on a workstation (I was on remotely). ... Some days life > sucks for rookies. That's how I was introduced to sysadmin -- I ran 'sudo' (repeatedly) on a university system, thinking it was mine (this was on Yellow Dog Linux on an old power mac. I had just learned about the magic of SSH. I got a friendly "what the heck are you doing" email from the local operator.. Dustin -- Open Source Storage Engineer http://www.zmanda.com From kurt.buff@gmail.com Mon Mar 22 11:53:50 2010 Received: from mail-pw0-f42.google.com (mail-pw0-f42.google.com [209.85.160.42]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MIrnTP059404 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:53:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: by pwj8 with SMTP id 8so3812651pwj.1 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:53:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=hx2ZxD3QOud/7exuD09Vj7C+YwEm8vJCai2mhrN0ocM=; b=L+mNSCaAy6gUAg+5tOxncQgDMe0RxQCNgt8Rbdb8GWEl+r1Do54dnSmjzVugEzk6zm 4exZUo/rLU4gjO3xByD87jbI2pyFR1dFJ+vQg0KN3xk3WuTbqnvbc+cpN9u4EHtBvD5P 3M7VcI8U8Wizc5NKxC6NjuLbCCUGOUYA2h1NE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=pxniw+vuUpEaA7Bi26C5m+O/ZvjPfpDoPBDnOodNfJKXbTTsFbeebCIbUY1ZxCFnfa 2CiitNYTUvfN7oOvsu9gdcbpeiYwSZ474k1AX2cTHt/8dBlMBilWZ+Qb+LxsnfQMFXU2 Zt1g7eBpOmc6mqVFYW9aC8TCX5aN5KSrtVPCs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.25.37 with SMTP id c37mr2189704wfj.172.1269284024745; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:53:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2444fd7e1003221129s44cac206v565a4417145530e@mail.gmail.com> References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> <306499.7372.qm@web33402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <19367.44296.948087.949762@stoffel.org> <4BA7B077.2050003@cookie.org> <2444fd7e1003221129s44cac206v565a4417145530e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:53:44 -0700 Message-ID: From: Kurt Buff To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2MIrnTP059404 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 18:53:50 -0000 On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 11:29, merc248@gmail.com wrote: > Sorry to sort of veer the topic a little, but I'm somewhat on the > other end of this issue: I'm a junior sysadmin who used to administer > a 10-15 server + 80 desktop environment by myself (with occasional > assistance from a contracted network admin), and am now working in a > 500+ server environment. > > I've been seeking a mentor for a while, but whenever I ask a question > or someone assigns me a ticket, the other sysadmins end up doing the > work for me instead. > > I'm getting stage fright from looking at the open tickets, because > it's not clear which ones are claimed, which ones are long term > projects, or which ones are only for senior sysadmins to deal with. > Ticketing system is usually first come first serve, which means that I > only realistically have 30 seconds to claim a ticket before it's > claimed by someone else. > > I'm not sure how to survive in such an environment; so far, I've been > reading SAGE booklets and reading various stuff online, but I don't > know if this even prepares me for taking on tickets.  How do I cope > when I don't have the "hands in pocket" sysadmins to guide me? > > Thanks, > > -- ian One thought: Grab a ticket looks like it will require a significant amount of work and planning to accomplish, then let a senior sysadmin (or perhaps your direct supervisor) know that you're going to a) plot out your actions, b) write them down and c) present them to him/her for evaluation and implementation. If the culture permits, this should let you show your stuff. Kurt From allan@cookie.org Mon Mar 22 12:14:03 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MJE3Mm059707 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:14:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allan@cookie.org) Received: from smtp.ufl.edu (smtp04.osg.ufl.edu [128.227.74.71]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MJDxaJ013716 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from macallan.fcla.edu (macallan.fcla.edu [128.227.228.147]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.ufl.edu (8.14.0/8.14.0/3.0.0) with ESMTP id o2MJDueN032465 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:13:57 -0400 Message-ID: <4BA7C174.9020605@cookie.org> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:13:56 -0400 From: Allan West User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "merc248@gmail.com" References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> <306499.7372.qm@web33402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <19367.44296.948087.949762@stoffel.org> <4BA7B077.2050003@cookie.org> <2444fd7e1003221129s44cac206v565a4417145530e@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2444fd7e1003221129s44cac206v565a4417145530e@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2010-03-22_13:2010-02-06, 2010-03-22, 2010-03-22 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1003220224 X-Spam-Level: * X-UFL-Spam-Level: * X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=18% Cc: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 19:14:04 -0000 On 3/22/10 2:29 PM, merc248@gmail.com wrote: > Sorry to sort of veer the topic a little, but I'm somewhat on the > other end of this issue: I'm a junior sysadmin who used to administer > a 10-15 server + 80 desktop environment by myself (with occasional > assistance from a contracted network admin), and am now working in a > 500+ server environment. > > I've been seeking a mentor for a while, but whenever I ask a question > or someone assigns me a ticket, the other sysadmins end up doing the > work for me instead. Ah, new guy status. I'm the newest guy in my current shop, and it's the first place I've worked where there was a ticket system. I started out doing documentation. That took most of my time the first three months, and I still put most of my spare cycles there. In order to do documentation, I had to log into the various physical servers and VMs, so I learned the back doors and service accounts and started creating accounts on each machine for myself. The tickets I'm quick to take now are password resets and account creations. I've been here 15 months. > I'm getting stage fright from looking at the open tickets, because > it's not clear which ones are claimed, which ones are long term > projects, or which ones are only for senior sysadmins to deal with. > Ticketing system is usually first come first serve, which means that I > only realistically have 30 seconds to claim a ticket before it's > claimed by someone else. Pick something you're interested in that looks like a frequently asked question, and see if there's a FAQ page in your documentation which describes how to deal with it. If not, ask someone what the steps are and document it. Then take the next ticket which applies. I'm in charge of new VM creations now, because it's repetitive enough that I documented it. > I'm not sure how to survive in such an environment; so far, I've been > reading SAGE booklets and reading various stuff online, but I don't > know if this even prepares me for taking on tickets. How do I cope > when I don't have the "hands in pocket" sysadmins to guide me? Document, try out your docs, and them claim mastery of that tiny corner of the job universe. After being a senior sysadmin at my last job for 8 years, it's still very awkward to be in the position of not knowing how to do everything here. It's not at all reasonable to think I should know how to do everything. We have excellent segregation of duties, with reasonanble cross-training. Still, I expect to know how to do everything because I did at my last job. I'm learning pretty fast, and everything I learn is written down in our wiki now. (Did I mention I still have lots of spare cycles for documenting?) I'll spend 15 minutes once or twice a week to watch the other sysadmins do something while asking a few questions, then go back to my desk to write it down and test my understanding. > Thanks, > > -- ian 15 months in, it is annual appraisal time again (everyone does it at the same time), so we sent our boss the lists of what we'd done for the last year. I'd been making quarterly reports since I'm still new, and I aggregated them. I was stunned to learn that this time last year, I didn't know VMware. I can count on one hand the outstanding issues I still have to learn about VMware, but I've created about 20 VMs, upgraded four VMware servers, then migrated them between the old and new management consoles. I'm the go-to guy for all things VMware now. Now I get tickets for new VMs. When I started learning VMware 10-11 months ago, I'd ask in meetings "is that a good thing to try in a VM?" and then go build a new one. Unless your boss says you're taking too long, just keep learning new corners of your shop's work. You can't handle the big picture yet, but if you can render all of the polygons in some quadrant, you're still helping. Allan From allan@cookie.org Mon Mar 22 12:20:05 2010 Received: from smtp.ufl.edu (smtp03.osg.ufl.edu [128.227.74.70]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MJK5rq059863 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:20:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allan@cookie.org) Received: from macallan.fcla.edu (macallan.fcla.edu [128.227.228.147]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.ufl.edu (8.14.0/8.14.0/3.0.0) with ESMTP id o2MJK4ws025118 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:20:04 -0400 Message-ID: <4BA7C2E3.3090608@cookie.org> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:20:03 -0400 From: Allan West User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> <260cfef1003220904l6bdd44cam6805d093612e4ea5@mail.gmail.com> <48555fa41003220943v767fec95mb1061fba69fd216a@mail.gmail.com> <42338fbf1003221147k2dc4b7d0jc70bfe017174b772@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <42338fbf1003221147k2dc4b7d0jc70bfe017174b772@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2010-03-22_13:2010-02-06, 2010-03-22, 2010-03-22 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1003220225 X-Spam-Level: * X-UFL-Spam-Level: * Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 19:20:06 -0000 On 3/22/10 2:47 PM, Dustin J. Mitchell wrote: > On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Jack@coats.org wrote: >> My first day as a unix sysadmin, I issued 'shutdown' on a production server >> thinking I was on a workstation (I was on remotely). ... Some days life >> sucks for rookies. > > That's how I was introduced to sysadmin -- I ran 'sudo' (repeatedly) > on a university system, thinking it was mine (this was on Yellow Dog > Linux on an old power mac. I had just learned about the magic of SSH. > > I got a friendly "what the heck are you doing" email from the local operator.. > > Dustin I've hired a few student workers that way, myself. >8^) Only one of them was a lemon; he tried to run a rootkit on another system because someone said it would help him access a professor's directory to find a help file. Most of the time seeing sudo in the security notice is a good introduction to my next student assistant. The fact that the student has to see me in person because their account was suddenly locked does increase their likelihood of getting an interview. >8^) Allan From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Mon Mar 22 13:41:41 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MKffdd061022 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:41:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MKfcQI019951 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o2MKfSbD026125 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4BA7D5F8.5020604@bio.umass.edu> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:41:28 -0400 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Macintosh/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sage Members References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> <260cfef1003220904l6bdd44cam6805d093612e4ea5@mail.gmail.com> <48555fa41003220943v767fec95mb1061fba69fd216a@mail.gmail.com> <42338fbf1003221147k2dc4b7d0jc70bfe017174b772@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <42338fbf1003221147k2dc4b7d0jc70bfe017174b772@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:41:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:41:42 -0000 Dustin J. Mitchell wrote: > On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Jack@coats.org wrote: > >> My first day as a unix sysadmin, I issued 'shutdown' on a production server >> thinking I was on a workstation (I was on remotely). ... Some days life >> sucks for rookies. >> > > That's how I was introduced to sysadmin -- I ran 'sudo' (repeatedly) > on a university system, thinking it was mine (this was on Yellow Dog > Linux on an old power mac. I had just learned about the magic of SSH. > > I got a friendly "what the heck are you doing" email from the local operator.. Try this introduction ;-) I had been managing network environments for some time, but had no experience with Unix. Mostly Mac, some Windows and Novell. I had just recently taken a one week class, "Hands on Introduction to Unix." So, we have this database server running Solaris 7 that's down. We have no one who knows Solaris (all the sysadmins had quit a year and a half earlier ;-) and, subsequently, I was hired). Furthermore, it appears this system was hacked. It's got some sort of tombstone image on the monitor poking fun at us. We need it back up immediately. Can you figure it out? I managed it with the group manager standing over me wringing his hands, a student with some Linux experience exchanging ideas with me, and the database support tech on the phone. I barely understood the unix file structure, but we had dds/3 tape backups done by the group manager using a step by step cookbook that had either been left behind by the departing sysadmins or provided by the database company. That was more than 10 years ago. I've been managing Sun servers ever since. -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From rskiadmin@chycoski.com Mon Mar 22 13:42:30 2010 Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MKgUBQ061041 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:42:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rskiadmin@chycoski.com) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAG5zp0urR7Hu/2dsb2JhbACbJ3OkGZhOhH0Egx4 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,289,1267401600"; d="scan'208";a="500916271" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Mar 2010 20:42:24 +0000 Received: from [171.71.86.69] (rac-ltest0.cisco.com [171.71.86.69]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o2MKgOP9014639 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:42:25 GMT Message-ID: <4BA7D63B.80605@chycoski.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:42:35 -0700 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> <306499.7372.qm@web33402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <19367.44296.948087.949762@stoffel.org> <4BA7B077.2050003@cookie.org> In-Reply-To: <4BA7B077.2050003@cookie.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:42:31 -0000 On 3/22/10 11:01 AM, Allan West wrote: > On 3/22/10 1:46 PM, John Stoffel wrote: > >> Hal> Above all else, keep your hands in your pockets. Meaning, your >> Hal> student will learn better when actually putting hands on the >> Hal> keyboard, and the more you prevent yourself from actually doing, >> Hal> the better you'll end up verbalizing what's going on. >> >> This is *the* hardest thing for me to do. Even with my kids. Esp >> with my kids. I'd make a lousy teacher. :] >> >> John >> > Oh, but if you can teach yourself, it can be so rewarding! > > Stand behind and watch while directing; the person who has asked you how > (meaning will you please) to do the same something six times will have > the light bulb come on over their head, and you're free. If you do that > a few times on different issues, the light bulb might even _stay_ on > over their head, and they'll be empowered to figure out the next answer > themselves. > > The most remarkable example was the professor with the manual typewriter > who asked questions, learned how the computer lab worked, and embraced > teaching with technology in a single 16-week semester. > > My mom, who went from teaching in the classroom to being a "media > specialist" was a close second. I went off to college and she was handed > a computer lab because "it's media, right?" We called and emailed back > and forth, and she learned. > _______________________________________________ > Your two examples, however, are of people who were, by the nature of their professions, good self-learners. People who are task-driven-from-above need to learn a whole different mindset that these two already had perfected. It's this mindset that is hard to come by. When interviewing for staff for sysadmin ( and other professional positions ) I look for this ability to self-direct and self-teach - it's more important to me than any certification. Almost anyone can take a class and pass it, but it takes true self starters/learners to *not* take the class and find out for themselves how to do something - and even more, if they learned it, and then took the class to learn how to do it *better*, they will have a more solid understanding than someone who just takes the class. I've had the problem of dealing with individuals who need constant direction, and who are not interested/capable/willing enough to change their ways. These individuals have either found other positions, been sidelined, or been given notice (depending on the org and environment). I will say, however, that some people have wholeheartedly welcomed the change, when they finally realised that they now were being empowered to take the initiative, and we're required (not just encouraged) to 'seek forgiveness rather than permission'. (This is especially powerful when forgiveness is almost always forthcoming!) And yes, this works with kids too (at least it has with mine :-). - Richard From maddog@li.org Mon Mar 22 14:14:47 2010 Received: from mail124c26.carrierzone.com (mail124c26.carrierzone.com [64.29.152.134]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MLEk5H061442 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:14:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from maddog@li.org) X-Authenticated-User: maddog.myfairpoint.net Received: from [192.168.2.102] (static-64-222-186-101.man.east.myfairpoint.net [64.222.186.101]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail124c26.carrierzone.com (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id o2MLEel2023741; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 21:14:42 GMT From: "Jon 'maddog' Hall" To: Richard Chycoski In-Reply-To: <4BA7D63B.80605@chycoski.com> References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> <306499.7372.qm@web33402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <19367.44296.948087.949762@stoffel.org> <4BA7B077.2050003@cookie.org> <4BA7D63B.80605@chycoski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Organization: Linux International Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:14:39 -0400 Message-ID: <1269292479.3542.48.camel@shamet> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: maddog@li.org List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 21:14:49 -0000 > and even more, if they learned it, and then took > the class to learn how to do it *better*, they will have a more solid > understanding than someone who just takes the class. > And they will learn it even better the first time they have to teach it to someone else. :-) md From kurin@delete.org Mon Mar 22 14:21:24 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MLLOxJ061583 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:21:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kurin@delete.org) Received: from carbon.delete.org (carbon.delete.org [173.203.205.179]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MLLL2S020848 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carbon.delete.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by carbon.delete.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2385C19C213; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:21:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by carbon.delete.org (Postfix, from userid 1006) id 0FFDC19C2BA; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:21:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:21:21 -0400 From: Toby Burress To: Chris Hoogendyk Message-ID: <20100322212120.GC28188@carbon.delete.org> References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> <260cfef1003220904l6bdd44cam6805d093612e4ea5@mail.gmail.com> <48555fa41003220943v767fec95mb1061fba69fd216a@mail.gmail.com> <42338fbf1003221147k2dc4b7d0jc70bfe017174b772@mail.gmail.com> <4BA7D5F8.5020604@bio.umass.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4BA7D5F8.5020604@bio.umass.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 21:21:25 -0000 On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 04:41:28PM -0400, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: > I managed it with the group manager standing over me wringing his > hands, a student with some Linux experience exchanging ideas with > me, and the database support tech on the phone. I barely understood > the unix file structure, but we had dds/3 tape backups done by the > group manager using a step by step cookbook that had either been > left behind by the departing sysadmins or provided by the database > company. > > That was more than 10 years ago. I've been managing Sun servers ever since. If that were my introduction to system administration I would have moved to Maine and opened a bed and breakfast. From daveinadk@yahoo.com Mon Mar 22 14:35:03 2010 Received: from web110713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (web110713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [67.195.13.220]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id o2MLZ28S061763 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:35:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daveinadk@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 14433 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Mar 2010 21:34:57 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1269293697; bh=N+eLvv/ytLFS6ss6x/F7Wk4ZbgoOZJEs74GY8vUiNMQ=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=aXv5Nc8qri/s08lIcWaKAqHrixHR54SCKex6bp9jtOP7SbZzTK1vzAnZCIwr3zunECoZV60Bnw5GadzhOIR/WK9o3hiqUGWsralK8sJL4x7i4BUULFrKTOtmih7E+pfaLHGHWhMtN05FI3xlNucCA9bRUnSHk+tZLxyfuWfgX5Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=oP3fwPEqbDkx1h0xSOZ4yLXLv29mniqpWfomHTuXYXPLIU5gUzPIIDuWifDNJxl/WTt9QnLor3gVsLS+aO5zzu8n68eIJ0RpG1CrsthtGGpRL8FAcp0kunj8iUy8Vfgv06stvhDYkhOtmBmUI5tgsOoZioIbeyBX6XJCPNHnGY8=; Message-ID: <613117.13696.qm@web110713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: DOR0E7QVM1laaVseR67oP7pcRBej78VPzqSLOmRoRO1tSBJ tT8uPPhTgtZAzu8L3ZD2r0Z_fgLuvDsEV6ykEoZ7XDBqW6hc4_kNxwx.zhX8 dKWv.qD3JxpPiBVmYWABouc1apX_V.xpS8beNGF3tGq6cAnBOSVcQgTCDUpF HOUvyyM4ks1dCjNyHBzeGzWj9laNwqcd4ukfEcW9BW9S0ePm3bRunuEA48Po z7zc.F52.E7ax53FcbYDqFDXdfdpRC8xkAvMMKdIgjADa33r6xxl2RSfrRUT X_Bu.dv2IEccFcmmEOiUOg0zVqYgmbkXZUNsxTyaeVX3NtbSaxvgbzY4uOlZ QRFO9g1AyB8.Ln_dcfAowxflIQA-- Received: from [74.33.242.83] by web110713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:34:57 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/324.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:34:57 -0700 (PDT) From: david hunt To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 21:35:03 -0000 Hi,=0AI am new to SA and also=A0 lack a mentor but have found "The Practice= of System and Network Administration" by Limoncelli, Hogan, Chalup to be a= valuable resource. This book is not a technical reference, but covers many= topic's talking more about how to preform the job of SA and deal with vari= ous situations which the SA is faced with. This book includes many anectode= s to help illustrate the topics being discussed. Hope this helps.=0ADavid H= unt=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AMessage: 8=0ADate: = Mon, 22 Mar 2010 08:00:28 -0600=0AFrom: "Simon, Wesley" =0ASubject: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins=0ATo: "sag= e-members@sage.org" =0AMessage-ID: <69C509AC-F462-49= 92-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com>=0AContent-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-asc= ii"=0A=0A=0AHi everyone,=0A=0AI have a question regarding new administrator= s.=A0 Due to not having a mentor, I have experienced gaps in my knowledge s= everal times.=A0 These gaps I speak of were in the fundamentals, not in som= e new technology.=A0 I've been able to fill in the gaps, but only after fal= ling on my face in ignorance and realizing that I should know more about th= is topic.=A0 Not having a more senior admin assisting me is a whole other s= tory that is more about politics, corporate games and isn't relevant to thi= s topic.=0A=0ASo, I've been tasked with "leading" two junior admins.=A0 The= y are both application administrators and are getting their feet wet in sys= tem administration.=A0 I don't want them to go through the same experience = I went through.=A0 =0A=0AMy thoughts are that I should come up with a list = of skills that are fundamental to being a system administrator in general a= nd being a system administrator within this particular corporation, assign = reading and assign homework or actual tasks.=0A=0AThose are my thoughts.=A0= But, I'm not writing this to get my thoughts.=A0 I'm writing this to tap i= nto your thoughts and experience.=A0 How do you develop people to be admins= or better admins?=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AWesley Simon=0ASystem Administrator=0AL= SI Corporation =0A3718 N. Rock Road=0AWichita, Kansas 67226=0A=0AP (316) 63= 6-8078=0AF (316) 636-8182=0A=0A=0A From tperrine@scea.com Mon Mar 22 16:51:25 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2MNpP4A063353 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:51:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tperrine@scea.com) Received: from ironport01a.scea.com (ironport01a.scea.com [160.33.44.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2MNpMu0023540 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:51:25 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,290,1267430400"; d="scan'208";a="11230535" Received: from inbetweener02.scea.com ([160.33.45.196]) by ironport01a.scea.com with ESMTP; 22 Mar 2010 16:39:03 -0700 Received: from sd-tperrine-mpl.989studios.com (sceapdsd-172-31-30-136.989studios.com [172.31.30.136]) by inbetweener02.scea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95935B829B for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BA7FF97.5050708@scea.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:39:03 -0700 From: Tom Perrine User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Macintosh/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sage Members References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> <260cfef1003220904l6bdd44cam6805d093612e4ea5@mail.gmail.com> <48555fa41003220943v767fec95mb1061fba69fd216a@mail.gmail.com> <42338fbf1003221147k2dc4b7d0jc70bfe017174b772@mail.gmail.com> <4BA7D5F8.5020604@bio.umass.edu> <20100322212120.GC28188@carbon.delete.org> In-Reply-To: <20100322212120.GC28188@carbon.delete.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 23:51:26 -0000 Toby Burress wrote: > On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 04:41:28PM -0400, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: >> I managed it with the group manager standing over me wringing his >> hands, a student with some Linux experience exchanging ideas with >> me, and the database support tech on the phone. I barely understood >> the unix file structure, but we had dds/3 tape backups done by the >> group manager using a step by step cookbook that had either been >> left behind by the departing sysadmins or provided by the database >> company. >> >> That was more than 10 years ago. I've been managing Sun servers ever since. > > If that were my introduction to system administration I would have moved > to Maine and opened a bed and breakfast. January 3, 1983 I showed up at my new job, only to discover that the manager who had hired me (in early December) had left the company, and taken the senior developer with him to form a new company. They had been the only system administrators. Of the two UNIX development systems (PDP-11s, running Programmers Workbench), one was down with /usr filesystem damage after a crash. The other was up, but only had the code for the old project, not the new/current project. No man pages or other docs installed on this system, as there wasn't enough disk space. It was a PDP-11/45 with a single 80 MB disk. The "big" PDP-11/70 that was down had two 150MB disks. RP06s I think, for those old enough to remember. There were no known tape backups of the "new" project. The only people left in the department were the four existing junior C programmers, plus the new manager, who showed up for work the same day I started. He had never seen UNIX before, and was actually a program manager, not a technical manager. I had never seen UNIX before, but I had been using Multics, TOPS-10 and a few other (now ancient) OSes for a few years. There were two 4" 3-ring binders full of hardcopy on top of the console: the entire UNIX manual set. The man pages, and The Papers. I took the binders home and read them, page by page, cover to cover, that first night. Late the next evening, after numerous cycles of icheck, ncheck and dcheck, the system booted and successfully mounted the /usr filesystem. We'll never know if I lost any files. Thanks and best wishes to Ken and Dennis, wherever you are. --tep From doug@will.to Tue Mar 23 05:57:47 2010 Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2NCvkYN075580 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 05:57:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from [149.77.212.99] (psistorm.nyc.deshaw.com [149.77.212.99]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id o2NCvf1O007361 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 23 Mar 2010 08:57:43 -0400 Message-ID: <4BA8BAD6.50705@will.to> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 08:57:58 -0400 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "merc248@gmail.com" References: <69C509AC-F462-4992-951E-79CEABFAB28C@lsi.com> <306499.7372.qm@web33402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <19367.44296.948087.949762@stoffel.org> <4BA7B077.2050003@cookie.org> <2444fd7e1003221129s44cac206v565a4417145530e@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2444fd7e1003221129s44cac206v565a4417145530e@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Tue, 23 Mar 2010 08:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mentoring, training, developing new admins X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 12:57:48 -0000 merc248@gmail.com wrote: > Sorry to sort of veer the topic a little, but I'm somewhat on the > other end of this issue: I'm a junior sysadmin who used to administer > a 10-15 server + 80 desktop environment by myself (with occasional > assistance from a contracted network admin), and am now working in a > 500+ server environment. > > I've been seeking a mentor for a while, but whenever I ask a question > or someone assigns me a ticket, the other sysadmins end up doing the > work for me instead. > > I'm getting stage fright from looking at the open tickets, because > it's not clear which ones are claimed, which ones are long term > projects, or which ones are only for senior sysadmins to deal with. > Ticketing system is usually first come first serve, which means that I > only realistically have 30 seconds to claim a ticket before it's > claimed by someone else. > > I'm not sure how to survive in such an environment; so far, I've been > reading SAGE booklets and reading various stuff online, but I don't > know if this even prepares me for taking on tickets. How do I cope > when I don't have the "hands in pocket" sysadmins to guide me? > > Thanks, > Do you have a reasonable manager? Tell your manager that you'd really like to help take some of the ticket load off the senior people, but you're intimidated by the current process and would like a bit more mentoring on some of the tickets to help get you up to speed. This seems to be a predominantly people issue as described and your manager should be able to help you. Or maybe approach one of the senior system administrators directly and say you'd like to help on ticket X, but don't know exactly where to start. From dpuryear@puryear-it.com Tue Mar 23 07:22:10 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2NEMAE2077008 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 07:22:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpuryear@puryear-it.com) Received: from mail.puryear-it.com (mail.puryear-it.com [207.29.213.194]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2NEM7oc019473 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 07:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 09:21:19 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Message-ID: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E1766C7@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? Thread-Index: AcrH7AViIh7uXofCTT+/rfx5W2nb6ACp+Uwg References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dustin Puryear" To: "Matt Harrington" , X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2NEMAE2077008 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 14:22:11 -0000 Yes, they should support due dates. Due dates *should* be met, and are also important for SLA's, escalation, etc. To me, getting rid of due dates because they aren't met is like getting rid of spedometers because you don't obey the speed limit. --- Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Matt Harrington Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 12:04 AM To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? I'm starting to get feedback about a trouble ticket app I'm writing (thanks to everyone who has checked it out), and I'm wondering what to do about Due Dates. Right now, users open tickets and specify a Due Date, and then the agent responsible for the ticket can modify it appropriately. I'm toying with the idea of eliminating it completely. Things that end up in a trouble ticket system are usually issues that need to be fixed as soon as possible. This is different from saying everything is an emergency though. Anyhow, I find that Due Dates are rarely met and pretty much ignored. Tickets get solved as soon as they can. Giving a ticket a priority such as low, medium, high, or emergency is useful though. Perhaps things with Due Dates far into the future would better belong in a project management system, not a trouble ticket system. Any opinions on this? Matt _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From irilyth@swarpa.net Tue Mar 23 07:47:13 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2NElDLP077481 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 07:47:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from irilyth@swarpa.net) Received: from smtp.swarpa.net (melfpelt.swarpa.net [70.84.200.162]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2NElA2E020336 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 07:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ecoplant.swarpa.net (ecoplant.swarpa.net [74.52.182.106]) by smtp.swarpa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15973125960; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:47:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ecoplant.swarpa.net (Postfix, from userid 500) id 107852E9004A; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:47:10 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19368.54380.714291.382303@ecoplant.swarpa.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:47:08 -0400 To: Ok Pa - We Like To Whomp Ether In-Reply-To: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E1766C7@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E1766C7@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under 21.4 (patch 15) "Security Through Obscurity" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smift X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 14:47:14 -0000 DP> Yes, they should support due dates. Due dates *should* be met, and are DP> also important for SLA's, escalation, etc. It depends on your workflow. There are places where due dates don't make sense, and places where they're essential. My #1 piece of advice about ticket-tracking systems is that you need to customize them to match your workflow (or more precisely, what you *want* your workflow to be). DP> To me, getting rid of due dates because they aren't met is like DP> getting rid of spedometers because you don't obey the speed limit. If you've decided as a matter of policy that you're going to ignore speed limits, then maybe you don't need a speedometer. Do ambulances and fire trucks have speedometers? If they do, I bet their drivers don't spend much time looking at them. -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From jlockard@umich.edu Tue Mar 23 08:11:00 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2NFB0I0077902 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 08:11:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlockard@umich.edu) Received: from 28dayslater.mr.itd.umich.edu (28dayslater.mr.itd.umich.edu [141.211.12.118]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2NFAu3w020928 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 08:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: FROM hackers.mr.itd.umich.edu (smtp.mail.umich.edu [141.211.14.81]) By 28dayslater.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 4BA8D7DD.8CCFC.21515 ; 23 Mar 2010 11:01:49 EDT Received: FROM localhost (dataless.si.umich.edu [141.211.185.113]) By hackers.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 4BA8D7D9.8BE67.25446 ; Authuser jlockard; 23 Mar 2010 11:01:45 EDT Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:05:27 -0400 From: John Lockard To: SAGE-Members Message-ID: <20100323150527.GA27070@umich.edu> Mail-Followup-To: SAGE-Members References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E1766C7@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> <19368.54380.714291.382303@ecoplant.swarpa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <19368.54380.714291.382303@ecoplant.swarpa.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 15:11:00 -0000 On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 10:47:08AM -0400, Josh Smift wrote: > DP> To me, getting rid of due dates because they aren't met is like > DP> getting rid of spedometers because you don't obey the speed limit. > > If you've decided as a matter of policy that you're going to ignore speed > limits, then maybe you don't need a speedometer. Do ambulances and fire > trucks have speedometers? If they do, I bet their drivers don't spend much > time looking at them. It depends on the situation (for both). If the Ambulance is driving around in a non-life threatening situation you better believe they're driving the speed limit. If they have someone dying in the back they're more worried about the morons ahead of them that don't know what to do when they hear a siren. In a TTS there are situations where a Due Date makes sense and there are other cases where it doesn't. In our workflow at $WORK we don't make the Due Date available to the customer. In their problem description they'll tell us things like "I have this meeting on Friday at 1:00pm" or "This needs to be done before the end of the month". In those cases we'll fill in the Due Date field which we can see and they can't. I agree that the ticketing system needs to be customizable. There are fields we use all the time which may not be important to others and vise-versa. There's nothing more confusing to a customer than (apparent) requests for information they either don't know or don't have as well as no place for the information they know you'll need. -John -- I am Jack's cold sweat. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John M. Lockard | U of Michigan - School of Information Unix and Security Admin | 1214 SI North - 1075 Beal Ave. jlockard@umich.edu | Ann Arbor, MI 48109-2112 www.umich.edu/~jlockard | 734-615-8776 | 734-647-8045 FAX ------------------------------------------------------------------- From sage-list-psa@otoh.org Tue Mar 23 09:08:30 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2NG8UxD078908 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 09:08:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sage-list-psa@otoh.org) Received: from pmon001.zetta.net (ssg-corp.zetta.net [74.114.124.9]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2NG8RI3022912 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 09:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bilby.zetta.net (bilby.zetta.net [10.10.1.16]) by pmon001.zetta.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D08F820001C90 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:08:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: by bilby.zetta.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6470AC50FED32; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 09:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 09:08:22 -0700 From: Paul Armstrong To: sage-members@sage.org Message-ID: <20100323160822.GE8607@otoh.org> References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E1766C7@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> <19368.54380.714291.382303@ecoplant.swarpa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <19368.54380.714291.382303@ecoplant.swarpa.net> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:08:31 -0000 At 2010-03-23T10:47-0400, Josh Smift wrote: > DP> To me, getting rid of due dates because they aren't met is like > DP> getting rid of spedometers because you don't obey the speed limit. > > If you've decided as a matter of policy that you're going to ignore speed > limits, then maybe you don't need a speedometer. Do ambulances and fire > trucks have speedometers? If they do, I bet their drivers don't spend much > time looking at them. I know an ambulance driver who got a speeding ticket because they were speeding and not under lights and sirens. To the OP: Perhaps a configuration option to turn on/off due dates on a queue basis? Paul From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Tue Mar 23 09:22:09 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2NGM80F079116 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 09:22:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2NGM5XB023320 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 09:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o2NGMHXg020384; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 12:22:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 12:22:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <13598.207.61.230.154.1269361337.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <19368.54380.714291.382303@ecoplant.swarpa.net> References: <51616f221003192204t36e57d8fne40ba542738231c1@mail.gmail.com> <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E1766C7@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> <19368.54380.714291.382303@ecoplant.swarpa.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 12:22:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "David Magda" To: "Josh Smift" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Should trouble ticket apps support Due Dates? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:22:09 -0000 On Tue, March 23, 2010 10:47, Josh Smift wrote: > DP> Yes, they should support due dates. Due dates *should* be met, and are > DP> also important for SLA's, escalation, etc. > > It depends on your workflow. There are places where due dates don't make > sense, and places where they're essential. My #1 piece of advice about > ticket-tracking systems is that you need to customize them to match your > workflow (or more precisely, what you *want* your workflow to be). Well, there's also the fact that your workflow may be the best way of doing things. What do best practices say on due dates? I believe ITIL is the general consensus on best practice, but could be overkill for a lot of places. (A colleague calls ITIL "bureaucracy 101". :) > Do ambulances and fire trucks have speedometers? If they do, I bet their > drivers don't spend much time looking at them. They do went they're coming /back/ from the emergency. :) From camberwind@gmail.com Tue Mar 23 16:32:49 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2NNWnNM084844 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:32:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from camberwind@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f220.google.com (mail-fx0-f220.google.com [209.85.220.220]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2NNWjBn003305 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by fxm20 with SMTP id 20so9247543fxm.32 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:32:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=8hn5uI6ydM7VhHTciexCcxUSOkOw3zRC8jQDgYt82+w=; b=Gu+4qC6tc2ZSEJpZdYO5TgfqKKptynY6ZkH49Gc8WO/hYzSzO1GVnod5fp87opvlGQ 6I7pl5FrK7hMjfcJl/IxpEgfuWk4AQDcw318BQO4CXfqwSQQn6xhJ1V2Y9ACbJch6BZn zEKgygrWKwNfJbPynS43j3O8l8gSiObVixprI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=rchiDgS4DXVqo0zRIIIMtsSx7nocTYK2y2gzfeO2W93iVRrPe5zDcM2STFNsMH/Xvp IZgO2Iame1NFNe76Eppf2BQpTJXaPRoR5o08tfatUKP3BfFa0CCc4diGRrnVRSKYaRn9 Cc7zo8dTBsdb8IHvnyM7DR0SMhTSvUO2nHfqY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.102.236.19 with SMTP id j19mr3013001muh.110.1269387159547; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 19:32:39 -0400 Message-ID: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> From: Scott Burch To: sage-members@usenix.org X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=4% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 23:32:49 -0000 Hi, I was asked recently about alternatives to F5 for load balancing, specifically management asked about A10 Networks. I believe management is looking for alternatives that meet existing technical requirements and also have the potential to save substantially over the existing F5 platform. I'm not really familiar with the state of the load balancing appliance industry today, but would like to know if anyone has any recent experience evaluating this space, etc. If you have any good information that you would like to share please respond to the list or contact me directly. Thanks, Scott From merc248@gmail.com Tue Mar 23 16:52:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2NNqWZQ085073 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:52:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from merc248@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ww0-f41.google.com (mail-ww0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2NNqSN3003665 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wwb39 with SMTP id 39so1906358wwb.28 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:52:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Gtx2OIPNG+RtMkMn+mqIu6uHeFWxEf2TbIgDhefgLvI=; b=l+M5hLiw1Wr/1ZSRuepLYcs8a2v9upsApY+fMq80R8EutMClk6w2BPxGcfTodk2Ppu E1a8fjPMEX7NF50OiAwOJER67eRGcWz2xVDUbAZCEItttVLXMpYO//tbGQ3gackNH+kA yR55dckXVSnDOVi01wfrRB/gvnGvSPgyOOpsI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=F9dk314viiYuQ8qG7rTECC9ccadyn1ng6jCPjqp1uoZkTcEYo5M9o+Y8mcCl8pd3j/ jh4jwN6t5GFJE5SK7VDxVtt6LHDNjwVfoGqNqDxknmTfLRC/D2tNdGu9lWXMZ6zndu5u aFzbIzLiZ+xVlMMUHX2G9t3fxyrZrNhhj7iSc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.171.207 with SMTP id r57mr1161507wel.146.1269388342866; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:52:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:52:22 -0700 Message-ID: <2444fd7e1003231652v4e0f3296p68a0c87a77090cd3@mail.gmail.com> From: "merc248@gmail.com" To: Scott Burch Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=26% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 23:52:33 -0000 Well, I haven't done any sort of extensive evaluation between load balancers, but my current company uses keepalived on a few Debian Linux machines in order to load balance traffic between about a hundred slave web servers and about 40 Flash Media Servers. -- ian On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Scott Burch wrote: > Hi, > > I was asked recently about alternatives to F5 for load balancing, > specifically management asked about A10 Networks. I believe management is > looking for alternatives that meet existing technical requirements and also > have the potential to save substantially over the existing F5 platform. > > I'm not really familiar with the state of the load balancing appliance > industry today, but would like to know if anyone has any recent experience > evaluating this space, etc. If you have any good information that you would > like to share please respond to the list or contact me directly. > > Thanks, > Scott > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- christian "ian" paredes http://www.redbluemagenta.com From papilion@hypergeometric.com Tue Mar 23 17:06:28 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2O06RvN085260 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:06:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from papilion@hypergeometric.com) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.150]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2O06MaG008755 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 4so862965qwk.22 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:06:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: papilion@hypergeometric.com Received: by 10.229.44.5 with SMTP id y5mr2005452qce.11.1269389180653; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:06:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:06:20 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ecc1d67ab591cc96 Message-ID: From: geoffrey papilion To: Scott Burch Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 00:06:28 -0000 Everything I've seen says that A10 is faster, better, and cheaper then the F5 at all levels(2x the load 1/2 the price). They have near identical features(a tcl based control language for example) and were designed by a bunch of former F5 guys. If I were in the market for a hardware loadblancer, these would be my first choice. That being said... both the F5 and A10 are glorified X86 systems, with some special interconnected buses. Unless you need some of the more advanced features, a software loadbalancer is much more cost effective. //geoff On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Scott Burch wrote: > Hi, > > I was asked recently about alternatives to F5 for load balancing, > specifically management asked about A10 Networks. I believe management is > looking for alternatives that meet existing technical requirements and also > have the potential to save substantially over the existing F5 platform. > > I'm not really familiar with the state of the load balancing appliance > industry today, but would like to know if anyone has any recent experience > evaluating this space, etc. If you have any good information that you would > like to share please respond to the list or contact me directly. > > Thanks, > Scott > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From dredd@megacity.org Wed Mar 24 07:56:24 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2OEuNAn003180 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 07:56:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2OEuLp3005045 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 07:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5A021F70026; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:56:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AJFzVHjcvtO2; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from akebono.megacity.org (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 320ED1F70008; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:56:12 -0400 Message-Id: <0182792D-00EA-46A8-B2F1-772D3D133073@megacity.org> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> To: Scott Burch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2OEuNAn003180 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 14:56:24 -0000 We *just* got finished doing a market-comparison in this area: - Citrix - The brand we were abandoning for having the World's Worst Support. Ever. - A10 - seemed interesting, but we weren't convinced about their "market maturity". We'd definitely revisit them next refresh cycle, though - F5 - who we chose - Crescendo - again, a little less mature a product line than we might've wanted, but they do seem to claim VERY good performance numbers if you're using it for HTTP/HTTPS because they do so much in dedicated hardware. Unfortunately, large chunks of our LB use are just "Straight TCP" (Database load-balancing, etc.) so it wasn't a good fit for us. But if we were doing "way more HTTP than anything else" they'd definitely make my short-list to look at. Cheers, D On Mar 23, 2010, at 7:32 PM, Scott Burch wrote: > Hi, > > I was asked recently about alternatives to F5 for load balancing, > specifically management asked about A10 Networks. I believe management is > looking for alternatives that meet existing technical requirements and also > have the potential to save substantially over the existing F5 platform. > > I'm not really familiar with the state of the load balancing appliance > industry today, but would like to know if anyone has any recent experience > evaluating this space, etc. If you have any good information that you would > like to share please respond to the list or contact me directly. > > Thanks, > Scott > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Wed Mar 24 08:08:59 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2OF8xRq003683 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:08:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2OF8tDH005348 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o2OF9CtC005150; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:09:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:09:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <49908.207.61.230.154.1269443352.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:09:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "David Magda" To: "geoffrey papilion" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: Scott Burch , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 15:08:59 -0000 On Tue, March 23, 2010 20:06, geoffrey papilion wrote: > That being said... both the F5 and A10 are glorified X86 systems, with > some special interconnected buses. Unless you need some of the more > advanced features, a software loadbalancer is much more cost > effective. I agree with this sentiment in general, but it usually only works in smaller shops where most of the tech folks are generalists (often Unix-y guys). I'd take an OpenBSD with PF over appliances (Cisco, Juniper) most of the time, but when you get into larger orgs specialization comes into play, and hiring NetOps folks with Cisco/Juniper/whatever training is much easier than someone with (say) BSD experience. Ditto for things like storage appliances and SANs. At some point the cost of dealing with personnel and things like (24/7) vendor support out-weights the cost of equipment. The commoditization of hardware only goes so far. From bergman@merctech.com Wed Mar 24 09:18:10 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2OGIAdO006351 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 09:18:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bergman@merctech.com) Received: from l2mail1.panix.com (l2mail1.panix.com [166.84.1.75]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2OGI6cf006821 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 09:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.1.72]) by l2mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B57125 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 12:18:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4378D1F091; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 12:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from merctech.com (node4.uphs.upenn.edu [165.123.243.168]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21EFE30CDA; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 12:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by merctech.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o2OGI1Z8025019; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 12:18:01 -0400 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.2 01/07/2005 with nmh-1.3 To: "David Magda" From: bergman@merctech.com In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:09:12 EDT." <49908.207.61.230.154.1269443352.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> References: <49908.207.61.230.154.1269443352.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 12:18:01 -0400 Message-ID: <25018.1269447481@localhost> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] balancing commodity hardware vrs. specialized appliances (Was: Re: Load Balancing) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: bergman@merctech.com List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 16:18:10 -0000 In the message dated: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:09:12 EDT, The pithy ruminations from "David Magda" on were: => On Tue, March 23, 2010 20:06, geoffrey papilion wrote: => => > That being said... both the F5 and A10 are glorified X86 systems, with => > some special interconnected buses. Unless you need some of the more => > advanced features, a software loadbalancer is much more cost => > effective. => It all depends on how you measure cost. The common argument above often seems to discount the value of the personnel cost to configure/manage the software solution. => I agree with this sentiment in general, but it usually only works in => smaller shops where most of the tech folks are generalists (often Unix-y => guys). I'd take an OpenBSD with PF over appliances (Cisco, Juniper) most Think of a graph of "desireability of LB appliance" vrs. "IT resources"...the expensive hardware appliance is highly ranked at the both ends of the curve. I'd claim that the hardware solution is also attractive in very small shops (if they have the $$, which is often not the case), as the time and skillset required to configure and manage the software solution may be more expensive than the cost of purchasing the appliance. In many cases, personnel resources are the limiting factor, more than $$. For example, I'm the admin for a small research lab...I could build my own NAS from commodity machines. This is appears to be a cost-effective choice, but the resource cost for my time is greater than the value in a lower hardware purchase cost, vrs. buying a small appliance. In this case, the appliance manufacturer becomes an extension of my staff resources, in that they do the component-level selection, system integration, software stack configuration, etc. => of the time, but when you get into larger orgs specialization comes into => play, and hiring NetOps folks with Cisco/Juniper/whatever training is much => easier than someone with (say) BSD experience. Ditto for things like => storage appliances and SANs. Absolutely. => => At some point the cost of dealing with personnel and things like (24/7) => vendor support out-weights the cost of equipment. That point comes very, very, very quickly...even in small, cash-strapped organizations...but few places realize that, and many pursue the strategy that personnel costs are fixed (with near-infinite resources) and hardware costs can always be minimized by doing more tasks in-house. => => The commoditization of hardware only goes so far. => The resource capacity of personnel only goes so far. Mark From dhanks@gmail.com Wed Mar 24 22:54:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2P5sW6G024081 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 22:54:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pv0-f169.google.com (mail-pv0-f169.google.com [74.125.83.169]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2P5sTgI021950 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 22:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pvg2 with SMTP id 2so3604256pvg.28 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 22:54:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=0eum6xxF/PeZU54v77wtQ/aSJ/M7HiEQbskLRNBKFKQ=; b=jYrlLyb8mSBeImX0CZ4hjHMV6wn2/cPwJ7kEmP53q6lQG6go3+hUpXxri8inSbpd8N 0F2a/qXm/ftHy2UPHFxqcjnhoF2bc5N+Q6Y65mnsqc+yoVCFLDWTC3ZOpmEz3xoWyNVa JSsZg+syF+W4P29NVzkqCt1jXbmHtGffdAEGQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=bx39mizPdn4VTNANmrp0Sgwu7QMjsApJMTESe+LwkqJwWjRRxyLeJcEvpRURAbTkqu +eBQez/jeOopzVtwPPJnNo2aw1+DYbWfjI3IFWKe22GpXpPDXIZQQHR95+oTy//En6qp vem+0DetFWy+ETv56s1PzC7GA7H+w4sD8860I= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.39.9 with SMTP id r9mr4588119waj.140.1269496464302; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 22:54:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 22:54:24 -0700 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: sage-members@usenix.org X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=4% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 05:54:33 -0000 Unfortunately the only real competitor at F5's level is Cisco's ACE module - which is constantly playing catch up. If you need a serious load balancer - the only real option is an F5. It just isn't about setting up a VIP with a fancy algorithm to distribute load to a bunch of real servers. You need to have the following capability: * SSL certificate management - including intermediate certificate support and chaining * SSL offloading * Layer7 ability - such as HTTP rewrites * Support intelligent caching and compression * Support intelligent server health checks * Pooling ability - such as sending all requests for *.jpg and *.css to a different set of real servers, transparently without having to modify the HTML code * Support routing protocols - specifically BGP route injections if you're performing any high availability load balancing * Support 802.1D, 802.1W, 802.1S * Support 802.1Q * Support 802.3AD * Support Layer 3 load balancing (where the load balancer acts as the default gateway of the real servers, so you can pass real source IP addresses to the real servers instead of NATing) * Support stateful failover between devices (maintains runtime objects and state information so that the TCP session isn't broken) * Support SNMP MIBs for monitoring Good luck gluing that together with open source stuff. The operational costs and dependencies would be silly. It's just easier to spend $15,000. Doug From treed@copilotco.com Thu Mar 25 00:24:55 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2P7Otl7025794 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 00:24:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2P7OqiA001112 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 00:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 9F17B64C76; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 00:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 00:24:52 -0700 From: Tracy Reed To: sage-members@usenix.org Message-ID: <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RD6GsZsdEJvsf78O" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 07:24:56 -0000 --RD6GsZsdEJvsf78O Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:54:24PM -0700, Doug Hanks spake thusly: > It just isn't about setting up a VIP with a fancy algorithm to distribute > load to a bunch of real servers. >=20 > You need to have the following capability: You might need all that to *market* a load balancer product but I've seen quite a few load balancer deployments and I don't know anyone who even uses a quarter of that stuff. And a lot of this violates the good design principle of "do one thing and do it well". HTTP rewrites, caching, compression, routing, ssl offload, etc. all belong in other devices, especially if performance is a concern. I'm running quite a few megabits through an open source (Linux LVS) based load balancer cluster and doing the ssl offload, rewrites, caching, etc in another layer (ssl offload first, obviously) for clients as a managed service and it is working out great. > Good luck gluing that together with open source stuff. The operational > costs and dependencies would be silly. It's just easier to spend $15,000. Isn't F5 RHEL on x86 hardware? The last ones I looked at were. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --RD6GsZsdEJvsf78O Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLqw/E9PIYKZYVAq0RAiZGAJ4nBq/C6XM7+Yty51872Pp/jVDQQwCggaW2 +j5Vg1xudawvq2ilu13eHbg= =Tc3c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RD6GsZsdEJvsf78O-- From matt@ryanczak.org Thu Mar 25 04:29:27 2010 Received: from zap.planetfoo.org (zap.planetfoo.org [70.164.19.160]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2PBTRm5030505 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 04:29:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matt@ryanczak.org) Received: from [IPv6:2001:500:4:15::16] (unknown [IPv6:2001:500:4:15::16]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zap.planetfoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 90DE74B05DA for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 07:29:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4BAB491F.6050201@ryanczak.org> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 07:29:35 -0400 From: Matt Ryanczak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9pre) Gecko/20100217 Lightning/1.0b1 Shredder/3.0.3pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> In-Reply-To: <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:29:28 -0000 On 03/25/2010 03:24 AM, Tracy Reed wrote: >> Good luck gluing that together with open source stuff. The operational >> costs and dependencies would be silly. It's just easier to spend $15,000. > > Isn't F5 RHEL on x86 hardware? The last ones I looked at were. At my shop we rely on Foundry (Brocade) hardware right now. Not because it supports all of the above mentioned HTTP centric features but because it has an ASIC dedicated to the fancy load balancing problem. We need the performance. We are load balancing DNS across large clusters of machines. We see 100s of 1000s of packets per second on any particular VIP. F5 / roll your own configurations (x86) can not handle the load. The biggest problem we have with our Server Irons is the IPv6 support is just awful at the moment requiring us to do work-arounds. They are working with us on this though and I would say they are taking getting their IPv6 support up to snuff very seriously. ~Matt From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Mar 25 07:28:26 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2PESQTm034371 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 07:28:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2PESMpQ010924 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 07:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o2PESew6023800 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <51256.207.61.230.154.1269527320.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:28:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "David Magda" To: sage-members@usenix.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:28:26 -0000 On Thu, March 25, 2010 01:54, Doug Hanks wrote: > You need to have the following capability: > > * SSL certificate management - including intermediate certificate support > and chaining > * SSL offloading Apache, lighttpd, nginx. Support for crypto hardware devices. Oracle's UltraSPARC-T2 CPUs would be nice here, as they can get up to 40+ Gb/s per socket for AES-128 (at least using Solaris). > * Layer7 ability - such as HTTP rewrites > * Support intelligent caching and compression > * Support intelligent server health checks > * Pooling ability - such as sending all requests for *.jpg and *.css to a > different set of real servers, transparently without having to modify > the HTML code Varnish, hoststated. > * Support routing protocols - specifically BGP route injections if you're > performing any high availability load balancing OpenBGP, others. > * Support 802.1D, 802.1W, 802.1S > * Support 802.1Q > * Support 802.3AD > * Support Layer 3 load balancing (where the load balancer acts as the > default gateway of the real servers, so you can pass real source IP > addresses to the real servers instead of NATing) CARP, hoststated. > * Support stateful failover between devices (maintains runtime objects and > state information so that the TCP session isn't broken) Pfsync. > * Support SNMP MIBs for monitoring > > Good luck gluing that together with open source stuff. The operational > costs and dependencies would be silly. It's just easier to spend $15,000. Certainly possible, but as you say, others already offer a competitive pre-canned solution. As usual, it's time or money. :) From livenyc@gmail.com Thu Mar 25 10:06:39 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2PH6cBw037328 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:06:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from livenyc@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f48.google.com (mail-vw0-f48.google.com [209.85.212.48]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2PH6ZXc014622 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14so2408061vws.35 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:06:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=1KZrLNdhOOOQR7reaWQ/5seyY2qc9TAUZHz8L/1vORs=; b=EGvRdb3qDdQAqR0EQheMXAc236t0OYpt6xeeD4uix2y3lsWi0eLZHpKqLA8TLEDSMp STluxjAbfTGdFzhHD1oQVemNkaFZS/uPrLDUYkO0XSCqcke4GrSwbPmw/gAljoVH2v/o uLehNMfqOOKEmI0am6rzZ+iv67Gmi/gRqVZrg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; b=tfYNkdTp0pJEtcuM9Y5WRejBtXzUW6YKt/abgeAtk+elrxsLiQe2Ih6dqCALjGCxWY ibnxhS2s7+odXvJA15b/RhtPzSR7Ki1cLOhDotf4Y2Zybyl5FFeu9dShxjLYTmPHtwnO Wf+L7NzJwAiDzWYxQ/umtZaClvYq406Dtbyak= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: livenyc@gmail.com Received: by 10.220.3.230 with SMTP id 38mr2541303vco.52.1269536789561; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 13:06:29 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 8e2776e8f0be1913 Message-ID: <810cf27d1003251006u39e50b77w30785365936ec2fa@mail.gmail.com> From: Igor V To: sage-members X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] ssd on servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:06:39 -0000 hi all, it looks like dell is now offering SSDs as an option for their servers ($1,500 each). I was thinking about getting a PE 610 with regular SATA disks and, separately, couple of intel X25-E or X25-M SSDs, and replacing the regular SATA disks from dell with my own SSDs - to avoid what looks to be a completely ridiculous markup from dell. the system will be running RHEL 5.x and PostgreSQL so couple of questions: 1) have been using SSDs on production servers. how do you feel about them from performance/reliability standpoint? anything that makes SSDs different from regular disks on OS(redhat) or hardware level i should be aware of? ( there seems to be a lot of information out there that's contradictory or already outdated. it appears the limited write issues have been made almost irrelevant and i can't recall seeing OS level problems on redhat machines) 2) do you see any problems with what i'm trying to do (compatibility issues between Dells/Intels etc) (one thing i noticed is that dell requires a PERC 200 RAID controller for SSDs instead of PERC 6). i'm not married to dell so if you have a proven setup with HPs i would look at that too thanks! -iv From sage-list-psa@otoh.org Thu Mar 25 10:42:03 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2PHg3ob038061 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:42:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sage-list-psa@otoh.org) Received: from pmon001.zetta.net (ssg-corp.zetta.net [74.114.124.9]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2PHg0TK015857 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bilby.zetta.net (bilby.zetta.net [10.10.1.16]) by pmon001.zetta.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29ABF20001C90; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:41:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: by bilby.zetta.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7588EC5069982; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:41:54 -0700 From: Paul Armstrong To: Igor V Message-ID: <20100325174154.GA3122@otoh.org> References: <810cf27d1003251006u39e50b77w30785365936ec2fa@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <810cf27d1003251006u39e50b77w30785365936ec2fa@mail.gmail.com> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssd on servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:42:03 -0000 At 2010-03-25T13:06-0400, Igor V wrote: > it looks like dell is now offering SSDs as an option for their servers > ($1,500 each). Wow, what a rip off! > I was thinking about getting a PE 610 with regular SATA disks and, > separately, couple of intel X25-E or X25-M SSDs, and replacing the > regular SATA disks from dell with my own SSDs - to avoid what looks to be > a completely ridiculous markup from dell. the system will be running RHEL > 5.x and PostgreSQL You want to use X25-E as they're SLC and have a write lifecycle in the millions. MLC disks typically have write cycles of 15,000-30,000 so on an intensive server you'll kill the disk in less than a year. > 1) have been using SSDs on production servers. how do you feel about them > from performance/reliability standpoint? They're pretty good. You may also consider the PCI-E cards that are available from several manufacturers. Usually the price is better and so is the performance, the down side is you need to shutdown the server to swap them out when they die (the most common vendor also seems to be selling a shoddy product, so test well before you invest heavily). > anything that makes SSDs different from regular disks on OS(redhat) or > hardware level i should be aware of? ( there seems to be a lot of > information out there that's contradictory or already outdated. it > appears the limited write issues have been made almost irrelevant and > i can't recall seeing OS level problems on redhat machines) If the disk supports TRIM, you should use 2.6.33 or later as that's when TRIM came in on Linux. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIM > 2) do you see any problems with what i'm trying to do (compatibility issues > between Dells/Intels etc) (one thing i noticed is that dell requires a PERC > 200 RAID controller for SSDs instead of PERC 6). i'm not married to dell so > if you have a proven setup with HPs i would look at that too There are some incompatibilities between controllers and disks on occasion (we found OCZ drives and Areca RAID cards don't play well together for instance). At this point, if that's what they require, then I'd replicate it (and just 3rd party the disks from somewhere selling them at less than 2x street value). Paul From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Mar 25 11:21:19 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2PILJ0R038740 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:21:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2PILFts016875 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o2PILJMt012439; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:21:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:21:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <14805.207.61.230.154.1269541279.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <20100325174154.GA3122@otoh.org> References: <810cf27d1003251006u39e50b77w30785365936ec2fa@mail.gmail.com> <20100325174154.GA3122@otoh.org> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:21:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "David Magda" To: "Paul Armstrong" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssd on servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:21:19 -0000 On Thu, March 25, 2010 13:41, Paul Armstrong wrote: > At 2010-03-25T13:06-0400, Igor V wrote: >> I was thinking about getting a PE 610 with regular SATA disks and, >> separately, couple of intel X25-E or X25-M SSDs, and replacing the >> regular SATA disks from dell with my own SSDs - to avoid what looks to >> be >> a completely ridiculous markup from dell. the system will be running >> RHEL 5.x and PostgreSQL > > You want to use X25-E as they're SLC and have a write lifecycle in the > millions. MLC disks typically have write cycles of 15,000-30,000 so on > an intensive server you'll kill the disk in less than a year. What OS is the OP using? MLC may be sufficient ZFS' L2ARC if it's Solaris or FreeBSD (and there isn't much churn in the cache that would require a lot of rewrites). (Though Sun/Oracle uses "read-optimized" SLC units from STEC for their L2ARC stuff.) From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Mar 25 11:22:21 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2PIMLDH038782 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:22:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2PIMIWd016903 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o2PIMXHo012507; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:22:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:22:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <21667.207.61.230.154.1269541353.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <14805.207.61.230.154.1269541290.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> References: <810cf27d1003251006u39e50b77w30785365936ec2fa@mail.gmail.com> <20100325174154.GA3122@otoh.org> <14805.207.61.230.154.1269541290.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:22:33 -0400 (EDT) From: "David Magda" To: "Paul Armstrong" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssd on servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:22:22 -0000 On Thu, March 25, 2010 14:21, David Magda wrote: > What OS is the OP using? MLC may be sufficient ZFS' L2ARC if it's Solaris > or FreeBSD (and there isn't much churn in the cache that would require a > lot of rewrites). Gah, never mind. Just saw that it's RHEL. From mark.dennehy@gmail.com Thu Mar 25 11:39:15 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2PIdFiJ039116 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:39:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark.dennehy@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f219.google.com (mail-fx0-f219.google.com [209.85.220.219]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2PIdBXN017331 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:39:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by fxm19 with SMTP id 19so3043416fxm.39 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:39:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=GCC6fRFH+rMqUvjotU64BVyfuDf5K7gDP1ZczxGZXI0=; b=bpr3H3CPsoNtn8/lKKQRgFAcRTZwcZ+6jWpoGnEcGkAbg9fGcMzMfXVXkXQ5f8SZty pdNDQzth4Vb3X3ulvImcusQzR9VppLkXexPOGPBdlAwKDjHzUFhN7+O/jUn9a6Nfg4+J ul8cajOTnk17oUCq3dd/RvIW7EEtFC5lwDqRE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=tCrK57TNyCo9cN5JM5kzv269sZaXOuGUKt4U32icJBPY29PUBvCa3oM1JkVt3Znx7w mhoJ2aeuGBWYYIf579N2Ob1HnB6yZTW6SdWn/EwDFYjPv/HAcszVyx2ony64DUg5+cjd fV27u4niC5mY3/3CMQ6AfY+xcTi22CAUtANqg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.132.197 with SMTP id c5mr1205864fat.35.1269541944675; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:32:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <810cf27d1003251006u39e50b77w30785365936ec2fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <810cf27d1003251006u39e50b77w30785365936ec2fa@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:32:24 +0000 Message-ID: From: Mark Dennehy To: sage-members X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=4% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssd on servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:39:15 -0000 The bandwidth on SSDs is great, but: - Your raid controller has to be up to snuff and the ones that are tend to be expensive - Some usage patterns (like writing to the same sector a few million times consecutively) don't work well with SSDs For rack-mounted servers in a climate-controlled server farm, they seem like overkill to be honest. We have a server here that uses one, but it's a demo server intended to be dropped into a Peli case and dragged all over the shop and the lack of spinning platters was the main reason to get it (and it worked fine even after going through Dublin and Barcelona airports and being dragged over about five miles of cobblestones over the course of Mobile World Congress this year. On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Igor V wrote: > hi all, > it looks like dell is now offering SSDs as an option for their servers > ($1,500 each). I was thinking about getting a PE 610 with regular SATA > disks > and, separately, couple of intel X25-E or X25-M SSDs, and replacing the > regular SATA disks from dell with my own SSDs - to avoid what looks to be > a completely ridiculous markup from dell. the system will be running RHEL > 5.x and PostgreSQL > > so couple of questions: > 1) have been using SSDs on production servers. how do you feel about them > from performance/reliability standpoint? anything that makes SSDs different > from regular disks on OS(redhat) or hardware level i should be aware of? ( > there seems to be a lot of information out there that's contradictory or > already outdated. it appears the limited write issues have been made almost > irrelevant and i can't recall seeing OS level problems on redhat machines) > 2) do you see any problems with what i'm trying to do (compatibility issues > between Dells/Intels etc) (one thing i noticed is that dell requires a PERC > 200 RAID controller for SSDs instead of PERC 6). i'm not married to dell so > if you have a proven setup with HPs i would look at that too > > thanks! > -iv > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- Mark Dennehy From jal@mdacorporation.com Thu Mar 25 11:45:55 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2PIjtmE039272 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:45:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jal@mdacorporation.com) Received: from msxyvr1.ds.mda.ca (mail.mda.ca [142.73.64.14]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2PIjqcW017464 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EHBYVR1.ds.mda.ca ([142.73.129.203]) by msxyvr1.ds.mda.ca with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:38:42 -0700 Received: from EVSYVR1.ds.mda.ca ([fe80::2c9f:b7ec:a600:52f9]) by EHBYVR1.ds.mda.ca ([142.73.129.203]) with mapi; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:38:42 -0700 From: John LLOYD To: Igor V , sage-members Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:37:59 -0700 Thread-Topic: [SAGE] ssd on servers Thread-Index: AcrMPdzMKz14hSg7SASdvkeh+4hQJgAC/YJw Message-ID: References: <810cf27d1003251006u39e50b77w30785365936ec2fa@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <810cf27d1003251006u39e50b77w30785365936ec2fa@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Mar 2010 18:38:42.0283 (UTC) FILETIME=[64B6D3B0:01CACC4A] X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2PIjtmE039272 Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssd on servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:45:56 -0000 > 2) do you see any problems with what i'm trying to do (compatibility > issues > between Dells/Intels etc) (one thing i noticed is that dell requires a > PERC > 200 RAID controller for SSDs instead of PERC 6). i'm not married to > dell so > if you have a proven setup with HPs i would look at that too There were some issues on a dell linux list complaining that H200s did not play with 3rd party drives. At all. You wouldn't normally need a raid controller for a ssd anyway. Assume it is (a) fast and (b) not going to fail. The suggestion that a MLC drive would fail within a year is incorrect. With load levelling, any repeated write to the same disk sector gets spread over the disk not repeated on the same page on the flash memory chip. 5 years if you did continous writing at very high speed would be more realistic. Almost nobody does that. --John From papilion@hypergeometric.com Thu Mar 25 12:49:35 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2PJnZmo040472 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:49:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from papilion@hypergeometric.com) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.24]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2PJnWWE018650 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 8so2455285qwh.59 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:49:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: papilion@hypergeometric.com Received: by 10.229.98.129 with SMTP id q1mr1170803qcn.100.1269543459370; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:57:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <810cf27d1003251006u39e50b77w30785365936ec2fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <810cf27d1003251006u39e50b77w30785365936ec2fa@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:57:39 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: abe99da66b391e53 Message-ID: From: geoffrey papilion To: Igor V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=8% Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssd on servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 19:49:36 -0000 On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Igor V wrote: > so couple of questions: > 1) have been using SSDs on production servers. how do you feel about them > from performance/reliability standpoint? anything that makes SSDs different > from regular disks on OS(redhat) or hardware level i should be aware of? ( > there seems to be a lot of information out there that's contradictory or > already outdated. it appears the limited write issues have been made almost > irrelevant and i can't recall seeing OS level problems on redhat machines) You have to pay attention to things you may not have adjusted previously like the io scheduler for the disk, and the read ahead settings. We experienced issues with performance due to firmware issues on our disk after about 6 months to 1 year. Also, pick your SSDs carefully. They are not all the same, some of the cheaper units performed pretty poorly when it came to write performance. > 2) do you see any problems with what i'm trying to do (compatibility issues > between Dells/Intels etc) (one thing i noticed is that dell requires a PERC > 200 RAID controller for SSDs instead of PERC 6). i'm not married to dell so > if you have a proven setup with HPs i would look at that too > I had problems with the perc controllers. They would not expose the ssd as JBOD, and would prioritize writes over reads (intel x25, dell 1950s). This resulted in a noticeable performance decrease. We tried to replace the PeRC with a plain SAS controlelr, but were unable to. //geoff From treed@copilotco.com Thu Mar 25 14:28:40 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2PLSdwl042308 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:28:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2PLSaZk020969 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 8E4E664C7B; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:28:35 -0700 From: Tracy Reed To: bergman@merctech.com Message-ID: <20100325212835.GW3490@tracyreed.org> References: <49908.207.61.230.154.1269443352.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <25018.1269447481@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4OpS+d6oOtUQaRm1" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <25018.1269447481@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] balancing commodity hardware vrs. specialized appliances (Was: Re: Load Balancing) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 21:28:40 -0000 --4OpS+d6oOtUQaRm1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 12:18:01PM -0400, bergman@merctech.com spake thusly: > For example, I'm the admin for a small research lab...I could build my ow= n NAS > from commodity machines. This is appears to be a cost-effective choice, b= ut the > resource cost for my time is greater than the value in a lower hardware p= urchase > cost, vrs. buying a small appliance. In this case, the appliance manufact= urer > becomes an extension of my staff resources, in that they do the component= -level > selection, system integration, software stack configuration, etc. I hear what you are saying and tentatively agree but there is one thing from my own personal experience which has always bothered me with this approach: F5 (or whatever vendor) generally will not come and manage the device for me and set up the pools etc. Someone still has to read the manual (if they deign to provide one), possibly attend vendor training, learn the quirks, and often you find out the device is not as flexible as you would have hoped. Whoever is going to admin the F5 needs to know networking and be familiar with all of the features they need from the device. This is no place for point-and-drool. So you end up putting in the employee time one way or another. And every time I have to fix someone's black box appliance whose support we are theoretically paying for I become dismayed. And even though that F5 (again, for example) runs RHEL underneath on x86 hardware you can't manage it like the rest of your infrastructure even though it could be broken into, needs patches, needs to be PCI compliant if card data passes through it (which is likely), etc. 7 years ago I consulted for a small somewhat technically savvy company which had plenty of money. They had just had a major outage due to their single web server which is what paid everyone's salary. They wanted a pair of webservers with a pair of load balancers in front of them. After getting them back online from their server crash I drafted a proposal for them with a price that would make me decent money for my time, included maintenance, and would give them what I considered to be a very solid solution based on Linux Virtual Server. Their setup doesn't get much simpler. Performance needs were minimal as well. They could have served their site through a T-1. Their sysadmin at the time knew basic Linux but was not terribly experienced with it. The next day after the CEO had accepted my proposal this sysadmin FUD'd them out of it ("We need to go name brand and get support!") and they renegged on the contract with me and went with a pair of Cisco Content Services Switches. They didn't get any vendor training themselves (hey, that's what we have support for, right?) and instead paid a local Cisco consultant from their colocation provider to set it up for them. Their Cisco consultant disappeared (yes, they do that too), left no documentation, and the company sysadmin knew even less about the CSS than he did about Linux. The Cisco solution ran for all practical purposes completely unsupported until last year when they went out of business due to the bad economy. No patching was done or machines added to the cluster because they are afraid to touch it. Their infrastructure was paralyzed. By the time it was all said and done they had spent $100k on hardware and consulting fees only to lock themselves in. They could have spent $5000 on really nice x86 hardware and $95k worth of employee resources on learning and maintaining it and achieved much better results. Or they could have spent a small fraction of all that with me or any other Linux consultant with LVS experience including maintenance for a basic LVS setup. In the meantime I have deployed several LVS solutions just like I pitched this company on years ago and they all work as advertised. I can normally deploy, test, document, and provide an afternoon of training on an LVS system in less time than it takes to choose a big name load balancer vendor, negotiate the deal, and actually get the hardware into the datacenter in production. That whole process seems to take most companies a month. A lot of people cite performance as a reason for going with "dedicated hardware" for their load balancer. But as a lot of this dedicated hardware is just x86 I am suspicious. One might look to custom ASICs to do lvs type routing for a performance boost but with modern hardware already handling half a million pps why would anyone but the most extreme cases bother? When we talk about pure load balancing performance we are really talking about packets per second. People are running 500k pps inbound through their lvs. With most of that traffic being TCP ACK (40 bytes) that works out to 20MB/s or very roughly 200Mbit/s. Anyone serious about performance uses direct-routing for their outbound traffic. If the outbound traffic is full 1500 mtu now we are talking 750MB/s or very roughly 7.5Gb/s outbound. That should suffice for most. The previously mentioned client was big on name-brand supported hardware for quite a while: Cisco load balancers - obviously a huge boondoggle which cost them dearly. Eventually they set up a new cluster to migrate to behind lvs load balancers. Unfortunately, the bad economy (and they were highly specialized in the real estate/land developer market) put them out of business a year ago before they could complete their migration. Sonicwall firewalls - Couldn't do aliased IPs on a physical interface IIRC. Replaced with Shorewall firewalls. I have deployed more Shorewall than I can recall. It's good stuff. Dell servers - Today I am dealing with a client who wants name-brand and supported Dell hardware. But they don't want to pay Dell for their $249.00 rails when they can get them on Ebay for $40.50. They also don't want to pay Dell's 2-3x markup on drives. And Dell only sells the drive trays with their hugely marked up hard drives in them, not as individual components. When you buy a new Dell they require you to buy at least one drive and give you one tray and fill the rest of the box with blanks. Acquiring any new hardware takes at least two weeks: A week of going back and forth with the sales rep (we just went back and forth three times trying to get a system configured with a RAID card and they kept leaving out the RAID card. Turns out their system won't configure in a RAID card when you buy only one drive) and a week for them to build and ship the hardware. Alternatively: Buy parts from Newegg and have them on the doorstep the next day. Assemble that afternoon. Install OS and test the next day. Second alternative: Go to Anacom or other local reputable builder to choose parts and put together the machine, they spend a couple days building/testing, a couple days shipping, have it in the datacenter in a week. A current client had a Barracuda spam firewall that was being overwhelmed. They paid thousands for it and were told it could do 500,000 emails a day when they bought it. It was barely doing 160,000 and varied between being 8 and 24 hours behind in mail processing. Barracuda's answer was to sell them an upgraded system for many thousands more. I built them a system for a fraction of the price of the Barracuda and looking at the logs from yesterday it processed 549,399 inbound emails. This is CentOS running postfix/spamassassin type stuff in a Xen virtual machine sharing the hardware (on a Dell R610 of course) with 11 other Xen virtual machines. Looking at the munin graphs it appears the spam filtering is using all of one cpu on average. It has a total of 8 available to it with perhaps up to one of those actually being utilized by other virtual machines. It clearly has a lot more juice left in it. I guess the point here is that with commodity hardware performing at such insanely high levels these days and massive libraries of software available to do whatever we want there isn't much a decent admin cannot build support very reasonably. With all of the prepackaged solutions like CentOS/RHEL (which includes Linux Virtual Server and a nice little web GUI for configuring the basics if you are so inclined) plus decent online documentation, SpamAssassin, Shorewall, etc. you really aren't so much "building it yourself" anymore and commercial support isn't worth nearly as much as people think it is.=20 Not only is the sales/acquisition process with big-name hardware more painful (I hate getting worked every time I pick up the phone to call a sales rep) but the support provided usually results in a well paid (hopefully!) sysadmin either: 1. Waiting on hold in a noisy datacenter with a mobile phone/bluetooth in his ear for the very polite man with the accent to read troubleshooting steps off of a script. 2. Troubleshooting the problem entirely by himself on hardware/software that was not of his choosing which he is not familiar with. You are stuck either way. I know I would rather understand the device more deeply myself so that I can solve problems more quickly. I have no problem with cross-training on what I've learned so that I'm not the only person who knows how to fix things. I definitely want to be able to take a vacation and turn off the mobile phone every now and then. The vendor usually cannot be counted on to solve these problems either way. I know there are higher levels of support available for big companies with obscene money to spend. But I spend most of my time in the SMB space. There are a lot more cost-sensitive small companies out there than big ones. > =3D> At some point the cost of dealing with personnel and things like (24= /7) > =3D> vendor support out-weights the cost of equipment. >=20 > That point comes very, very, very quickly...even in small, cash-strapped= =20 > organizations...but few places realize that, and many pursue the strategy= that=20 > personnel costs are fixed (with near-infinite resources) and hardware cos= ts can=20 > always be minimized by doing more tasks in-house. Unfortunately there seems to be a huge gulf between when you need capable hardware and when you have enough money to be able to outsource that kind of thing. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --4OpS+d6oOtUQaRm1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLq9WD9PIYKZYVAq0RAiN1AJ4/EUOB9cdsPeVQnzrWGSX8YuPbLQCfWZhR RISRCwefEuXGXJlIiBfg1lE= =i6Si -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4OpS+d6oOtUQaRm1-- From treed@copilotco.com Thu Mar 25 16:37:49 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2PNbned044686 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:37:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2PNbkXB023492 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 3373A64C76; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:37:46 -0700 From: Tracy Reed To: Doug Hanks Message-ID: <20100325233745.GX3490@tracyreed.org> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ABYnUdqoGSokwVM+" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 23:37:49 -0000 --ABYnUdqoGSokwVM+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 04:33:41PM -0700, Doug Hanks spake thusly: > Every real e-commerce or Internet presence I've worked at (with multiple > 10GB carrier-ethernet Internet handoffs) uses about 95% of the features I= 've > listed. Someone of that size may use those features. They are in the minority. The vast majority of load balancer (and F5 installations, =66rom what I can see) are much smaller. > I'm sure a Linux server handles a few Mbps just fine - that's only T1 spe= eds > we're talking about. A few Mbps inbound or outbound via direct-return? Either way a Linux server can handle more than just a few Mbps. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --ABYnUdqoGSokwVM+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLq/PJ9PIYKZYVAq0RAvyXAJ0SD6dq6fHrRpCBxeL5QZaQHAP4AACfViZg kV/6+by3aDegde9BxD2XN+E= =ltYa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ABYnUdqoGSokwVM+-- From dhanks@gmail.com Thu Mar 25 16:39:13 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2PNdDSp044710 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:39:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pv0-f169.google.com (mail-pv0-f169.google.com [74.125.83.169]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2PNdAjA023520 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pvg2 with SMTP id 2so4122700pvg.28 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:39:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=JLUM1hyv5iPR0r1s5ps1t137HqyD49aljAoxOcjSHJM=; b=sACUx6Iqj+jZ0umyghetpUo/ElA2+IM03KxfMifIOEKm1j3r0u5wFWsGgw73FqffNK /BZyfg2FhPrBSYzhWegTk2cSXyuwqIWkWHykTuxKEZQQBB6WjMjeBp0CCckGWrz5Rbdx xhZUg4qm3XMhEYbFAlFYT+zmTj+kh+Rfqnlps= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=vK/HQxODSTk8ltPIz6lCnlXZo0Ch+ld0iASntAxuuR/lp1tNG1GkacHM8/amvqApDR MjcECuOuWjc5uQsGhxq53ximl8vO04YK3QjKHK6urEtYR2Bw6AudnchGl9qQw+jr3oym uyS/YTUYKLpKIBCdikdCrDs9YEcJ20QZ9DGaA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.8.15 with SMTP id 15mr8629301wah.178.1269560021660; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:33:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:33:41 -0700 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: Tracy Reed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=4% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 23:39:13 -0000 Every real e-commerce or Internet presence I've worked at (with multiple 10GB carrier-ethernet Internet handoffs) uses about 95% of the features I've listed. The F5 was designed from the ground up to do all these functions exceedingly efficient, fast and integrated. F5 does all these things well. I'm sure a Linux server handles a few Mbps just fine - that's only T1 speeds we're talking about. F5 just isn't a linux box. It has multiple instances of linux and custom written kernels running on different ASICS, motherboards and such. On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 12:24 AM, Tracy Reed wrote: > On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:54:24PM -0700, Doug Hanks spake thusly: > > It just isn't about setting up a VIP with a fancy algorithm to distribute > > load to a bunch of real servers. > > > > You need to have the following capability: > > You might need all that to *market* a load balancer product but I've > seen quite a few load balancer deployments and I don't know anyone who > even uses a quarter of that stuff. And a lot of this violates the good > design principle of "do one thing and do it well". HTTP rewrites, > caching, compression, routing, ssl offload, etc. all belong in other > devices, especially if performance is a concern. > > I'm running quite a few megabits through an open source (Linux LVS) > based load balancer cluster and doing the ssl offload, rewrites, > caching, etc in another layer (ssl offload first, obviously) for > clients as a managed service and it is working out great. > > > Good luck gluing that together with open source stuff. The operational > > costs and dependencies would be silly. It's just easier to spend > $15,000. > > Isn't F5 RHEL on x86 hardware? The last ones I looked at were. > > -- > Tracy Reed > http://tracyreed.org > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From dredd@megacity.org Thu Mar 25 19:28:10 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2Q2SAZG047332 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 19:28:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2Q2S7ai025995 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 19:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A1E1F70026; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 22:28:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kYjTbJSKi+zJ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 22:28:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from akebono.megacity.org (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2A4331F70008; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 22:28:00 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: <20100325174154.GA3122@otoh.org> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 22:27:58 -0400 Message-Id: References: <810cf27d1003251006u39e50b77w30785365936ec2fa@mail.gmail.com> <20100325174154.GA3122@otoh.org> To: Paul Armstrong X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2Q2SAZG047332 Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssd on servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 02:28:11 -0000 On Mar 25, 2010, at 1:41 PM, Paul Armstrong wrote: > They're pretty good. You may also consider the PCI-E cards that are > available from several manufacturers. Usually the price is better and so > is the performance, the down side is you need to shutdown the server to > swap them out when they die (the most common vendor also seems to be > selling a shoddy product, so test well before you invest heavily). In this space, I *cannot* overestimate how happy we are at $ORKPLACE with our Fusion-io cards. (Specifically, we usually get the model they OEM to HP as "ioAccelerator for Blades", but it's basically just an IODrive in a mezzanine card form factor). The Fusion-io gear is expensive -- to be sure -- but by force of the sheer number of servers it allowed us to repurpose? Well worth it. We were able to move from like 17 DB backend servers to *5*, and realistically, in testing, *1* could have handled the load. The performance improvement is simply not believable until you see it for yourself. Cheers, D From sage-list-psa@otoh.org Thu Mar 25 20:37:09 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2Q3b9Xi048598 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 20:37:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sage-list-psa@otoh.org) Received: from suricate.otoh.org (suricate.otoh.org [173.11.101.67]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2Q3b6NW027454 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 20:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by suricate.otoh.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3A77BA38C2; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 03:29:42 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 03:29:42 +0000 From: Paul Armstrong To: "Derek J. Balling" Message-ID: <20100326032941.GA3206@suricate.otoh.org> References: <810cf27d1003251006u39e50b77w30785365936ec2fa@mail.gmail.com> <20100325174154.GA3122@otoh.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssd on servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 03:37:09 -0000 At 2010-03-25T22:27-0400, Derek J. Balling wrote: > On Mar 25, 2010, at 1:41 PM, Paul Armstrong wrote: > > They're pretty good. You may also consider the PCI-E cards that are > > available from several manufacturers. Usually the price is better and so > > is the performance, the down side is you need to shutdown the server to > > swap them out when they die (the most common vendor also seems to be > > selling a shoddy product, so test well before you invest heavily). > > In this space, I *cannot* overestimate how happy we are at $ORKPLACE > with our Fusion-io cards. Let me provide the opposite side of this coin. We installed 8 of them and we've had 15 RMAs in the 9 months we've been running them. We love the speed, but the reliability leaves something to be desired. Paul From dredd@megacity.org Fri Mar 26 04:49:56 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2QBnubm057165 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 04:49:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2QBnr72013447 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 04:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39A691F70008; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 07:49:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ktUy2DqsSDce; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 07:49:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from akebono.megacity.org (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 07FCB1F70026; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 07:49:46 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: <20100326032941.GA3206@suricate.otoh.org> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 07:49:45 -0400 Message-Id: <48CCF837-B92E-4C90-B737-98405540D243@megacity.org> References: <810cf27d1003251006u39e50b77w30785365936ec2fa@mail.gmail.com> <20100325174154.GA3122@otoh.org> <20100326032941.GA3206@suricate.otoh.org> To: Paul Armstrong X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2QBnubm057165 Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssd on servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 11:49:56 -0000 On Mar 25, 2010, at 11:29 PM, Paul Armstrong wrote: >> In this space, I *cannot* overestimate how happy we are at $ORKPLACE >> with our Fusion-io cards. > > Let me provide the opposite side of this coin. > We installed 8 of them and we've had 15 RMAs in the 9 months we've been > running them. > > We love the speed, but the reliability leaves something to be desired. Really? We've probably purchased maybe 40 to 50 of them over the course of the last year or so, and only had one case of infant-mortality in the whole lot of them. And, seriously, that's not a bad infant-mortality rate, when you come right down to it. Proof positive, though, that "your mileage may vary" and a person should definitely check it out for themselves. :-) Cheers, D From tal@whatexit.org Fri Mar 26 06:00:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2QD0Wir058673 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 06:00:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-qy0-f204.google.com (mail-qy0-f204.google.com [209.85.221.204]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2QD0SaF014814 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 06:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qyk42 with SMTP id 42so579885qyk.7 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 06:00:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.84.6 with HTTP; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 05:55:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100325233745.GX3490@tracyreed.org> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <20100325233745.GX3490@tracyreed.org> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:55:21 -0400 Received: by 10.229.213.140 with SMTP id gw12mr1016032qcb.96.1269608121286; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 05:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7d49b3d91003260555i3a3e7a8cna9c74d6c374a596d@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: Tracy Reed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:00:33 -0000 Everything can handle multiple megabytes. That's easy. That's having enough buffers and CPU power. The real benchmark is to have the load near maximum and measure the latency being added. That's usually dependent on bus structures and over-all design. Much harder to do on generic software. When I use an appliance like NetApp or F5 (I haven't used F5, just FYI) I'm saving myself from weeks of trying different cards, motherboards, etc. to find ones that do the best job for the money. Considering that I probably don't have the skill to do a really good job, I'm saving myself more than money. As you can guess, I'm a big fan of appliances. Tom From nicholastang@gmail.com Fri Mar 26 06:26:14 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2QDQEp7059069 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 06:26:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicholastang@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f48.google.com (mail-vw0-f48.google.com [209.85.212.48]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2QDQALB015553 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 06:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14so2966632vws.35 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 06:26:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=dLzdpy46T6OMwGDZ4nmScqP7i/1WRUwtL7ZH6WsYyCc=; b=eiVzbf2aj0yJO0F8NneIbGpsw8VHsxaTeXSaIkMfxOjHp4x7dkZ5+xq5soLazPGZso Rdn3Fn/txel6z/tq6T9AVViU9qdMsUizLejFerpJcdVPLPxStXAHep28TvnrGSugxt0d kTfBeF1AndnahmdGB1ZOXxHZ8Wt0ppbCHksz4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=cUC0ryRswbtGn6S2F3af5hV89Eqdv5BGu+nNpQdvuaVIxhXRBeESCdouE5JTfPqgXf WdHnKxebr84Pdjn484uy/IAYP4qahjdn30VeTkkxatu1857MnYPtrHYb+hPLD1xKrYuA QtOb74flDHatTu8v8jlRWdOeTDsjma/5JfnN0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.150.15 with HTTP; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 06:26:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100326032941.GA3206@suricate.otoh.org> References: <810cf27d1003251006u39e50b77w30785365936ec2fa@mail.gmail.com> <20100325174154.GA3122@otoh.org> <20100326032941.GA3206@suricate.otoh.org> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:26:04 -0400 Received: by 10.220.48.22 with SMTP id p22mr626460vcf.93.1269609964698; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 06:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Nicholas Tang To: Paul Armstrong X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssd on servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:26:14 -0000 I've heard similar rumors about them - anyone else used them and had good or bad experiences w/ regards to reliability? Currently we're just looking at augmenting some of our current servers w/ lower end SSD solutions - like the Intel X-25E. They're cheap enough, relatively, that we can always add multiple and RAID them, and not worry excessively about them. But I will admit, having a packaged, larger, faster SSD solution has appeal, so we have been chatting w/ both Fusion-IO and Ramsan about their cards. Nicholas On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:29 PM, Paul Armstrong wrote: > At 2010-03-25T22:27-0400, Derek J. Balling wrote: > > On Mar 25, 2010, at 1:41 PM, Paul Armstrong wrote: > > > They're pretty good. You may also consider the PCI-E cards that are > > > available from several manufacturers. Usually the price is better and > so > > > is the performance, the down side is you need to shutdown the server to > > > swap them out when they die (the most common vendor also seems to be > > > selling a shoddy product, so test well before you invest heavily). > > > > In this space, I *cannot* overestimate how happy we are at $ORKPLACE > > with our Fusion-io cards. > > Let me provide the opposite side of this coin. > We installed 8 of them and we've had 15 RMAs in the 9 months we've been > running them. > > We love the speed, but the reliability leaves something to be desired. > > Paul > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From psa@otoh.org Fri Mar 26 08:12:42 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2QFCg25061202 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:12:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from psa@otoh.org) Received: from pmon001.zetta.net (ssg-corp.zetta.net [74.114.124.9]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2QFCd6b018257 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bilby.zetta.net (bilby.zetta.net [10.10.1.16]) by pmon001.zetta.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C14420001C90 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 15:12:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: by bilby.zetta.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0CD79C5069A25; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:12:31 -0700 From: Paul Armstrong To: sage-members Message-ID: <20100326151230.GA4811@otoh.org> References: <810cf27d1003251006u39e50b77w30785365936ec2fa@mail.gmail.com> <20100325174154.GA3122@otoh.org> <20100326032941.GA3206@suricate.otoh.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100326032941.GA3206@suricate.otoh.org> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:18:55 -0700 Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssd on servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 15:12:43 -0000 At 2010-03-26T03:29+0000, Paul Armstrong wrote: > Let me provide the opposite side of this coin. > We installed 8 of them and we've had 15 RMAs in the 9 months we've been > running them. > > We love the speed, but the reliability leaves something to be desired. Someone asked off list as to whether we knew anything about why we'd had such issues and I thought it only fair to mention the reasons we've seen on list. The problems we've had break into two issues: * A bad batch of cards. * Several bad firmware releases. They have been a _lot_ more stable in the last few months, but let's just say we didn't get off to a good start. Paul From sage-list-psa@otoh.org Fri Mar 26 09:19:15 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2QGJFUs062615 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:19:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sage-list-psa@otoh.org) Received: from pmon001.zetta.net (ssg-corp.zetta.net [74.114.124.9]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2QGJCZX019926 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bilby.zetta.net (bilby.zetta.net [10.10.1.16]) by pmon001.zetta.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E98920001C90 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:19:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: by bilby.zetta.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CD171C5069A25; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:19:06 -0700 From: Paul Armstrong To: sage-members Message-ID: <20100326161906.GC4811@otoh.org> References: <810cf27d1003251006u39e50b77w30785365936ec2fa@mail.gmail.com> <20100325174154.GA3122@otoh.org> <20100326032941.GA3206@suricate.otoh.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100326032941.GA3206@suricate.otoh.org> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssd on servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:19:15 -0000 At 2010-03-26T03:29+0000, Paul Armstrong wrote: > Let me provide the opposite side of this coin. > We installed 8 of them and we've had 15 RMAs in the 9 months we've been > running them. > > We love the speed, but the reliability leaves something to be desired. Someone asked off list as to whether we knew anything about why we'd had such issues and I thought it only fair to mention the reasons we've seen on list. The problems we've had break into two issues: * A bad batch of cards. * Several bad firmware releases. They have been a _lot_ more stable in the last few months, but let's just say we didn't get off to a good start. Paul From papilion@hypergeometric.com Fri Mar 26 09:22:14 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2QGMEO7062671 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:22:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from papilion@hypergeometric.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f204.google.com (mail-qy0-f204.google.com [209.85.221.204]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2QGMAG9019984 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qyk42 with SMTP id 42so751495qyk.7 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:22:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: papilion@hypergeometric.com Received: by 10.229.24.136 with HTTP; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:22:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:22:03 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 945b0067795b5d4a Received: by 10.229.212.9 with SMTP id gq9mr1038633qcb.84.1269620524666; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: geoffrey papilion To: Doug Hanks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:22:15 -0000 On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Doug Hanks wrote: > Every real e-commerce or Internet presence I've worked at (with multiple > 10GB carrier-ethernet Internet handoffs) uses about 95% of the features I've > listed. I ran 100% of page requests from 5 of the top 15 internet retailers through black friday and cyber monday on software load balancers. There were no issue from the linux box, and we used most of the features you listed above. It was a 40k per data center savings, and was one of the most successful projects of my career. It had about 1/2 the performance of an F5 3400, but then again I ran out of load testing clients. It was a standard Sun x4150. I think the F5 is a great appliance, I also think its over priced. //geoff From dallas@smog.com Fri Mar 26 12:03:35 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2QJ3ZPE066850 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 12:03:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dallas@smog.com) Received: from jaded.cynicism.com (jaded.cynicism.com [69.31.43.250]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2QJ3Wot023074 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 12:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by jaded.cynicism.com (Postfix, from userid 501) id 393EA4C80E1; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 14:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jaded.cynicism.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F7EC4C80C6 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 14:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 14:33:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Dallas Wisehaupt X-X-Sender: dallas@jaded.cynicism.com To: sage-members In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <810cf27d1003251006u39e50b77w30785365936ec2fa@mail.gmail.com> <20100325174154.GA3122@otoh.org> <20100326032941.GA3206@suricate.otoh.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssd on servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 19:03:36 -0000 On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, Nicholas Tang wrote: > I've heard similar rumors about them - anyone else used them and had good or > bad experiences w/ regards to reliability? > > Currently we're just looking at augmenting some of our current servers w/ > lower end SSD solutions - like the Intel X-25E. They're cheap enough, > relatively, that we can always add multiple and RAID them, and not worry > excessively about them. But I will admit, having a packaged, larger, faster > SSD solution has appeal, so we have been chatting w/ both Fusion-IO and > Ramsan about their cards. > > Nicholas Like Derek, we also have a chunk of Fusion-IO cards. Some are in IBM blades and others in HP servers. To this point, we haven't encountered any failures with hardware or software. They have been in solid service for about a month and we tested various configs for the past 4-5 months. At this point we are extremely happy with them and trying to figure out how to maximise their use. Dallas -- pub 1024D/695B2F41 2001-05-30 Dallas Wisehaupt (sign) Member: USENIX and SAGE From mdevlin@aisle10.net Fri Mar 26 13:11:53 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2QKBq65067914 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:11:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mdevlin@aisle10.net) Received: from mail-pz0-f186.google.com (mail-pz0-f186.google.com [209.85.222.186]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2QKBnBY024397 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pzk16 with SMTP id 16so5796952pzk.22 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:11:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.202.8 with HTTP; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:11:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:11:44 -0400 Received: by 10.141.124.18 with SMTP id b18mr1460557rvn.196.1269634304260; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5bb9359b1003261311x7998d45p8f35eaae3c4f79d1@mail.gmail.com> From: Mike Devlin To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 20:11:53 -0000 What software did you have installed on the X4150 to use most of the features? Also how many connections per second (both SSL and non SSL) were you seeing? what about throughput? - Mike On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 12:22 PM, geoffrey papilion wrote: > On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Doug Hanks wrote: >> Every real e-commerce or Internet presence I've worked at (with multiple >> 10GB carrier-ethernet Internet handoffs) uses about 95% of the features I've >> listed. > > I ran 100% of page requests from 5 of the top 15 internet retailers > through black friday and cyber monday on software load balancers. > There were no issue from the linux box, and we used most of the > features you listed above. > > It was a 40k per data center savings, and was one of the most > successful projects of my career. It had about 1/2 the performance of > an F5 3400, but then again I ran out of load testing clients. It was a > standard Sun x4150. > > I think the F5 is a great appliance, I also think its over priced. > > //geoff > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From dredd@megacity.org Fri Mar 26 14:28:41 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2QLSf4b069827 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 14:28:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2QLSdwA025965 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 14:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B33341F70026; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:28:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1MHKJI4zFGTe; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:28:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from akebono.megacity.org (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 826B41F70008; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:28:32 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:28:30 -0400 Message-Id: References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> To: geoffrey papilion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2QLSf4b069827 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 21:28:42 -0000 On Mar 26, 2010, at 12:22 PM, geoffrey papilion wrote: > I ran 100% of page requests from 5 of the top 15 internet retailers > through black friday and cyber monday on software load balancers. > There were no issue from the linux box, and we used most of the > features you listed above. > > It was a 40k per data center savings, and was one of the most > successful projects of my career. It had about 1/2 the performance of > an F5 3400, but then again I ran out of load testing clients. It was a > standard Sun x4150. > > I think the F5 is a great appliance, I also think its over priced. Real questions, speaking to TCO: - How much do you make per year? - How many man-days did it take you, start to finish, to get it completely working and stable? - How many man-days per year do you spend maintaining/tweaking/etc.? (NOT configuration, as you'd have that in any scenario). From feenberg@nber.org Fri Mar 26 19:53:51 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2R2roJ9077794 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 19:53:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from feenberg@nber.org) Received: from mail2.nber.org (mail2.nber.org [66.251.72.79]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2R2rlMF000932 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 19:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nber5.nber.org (nber5.nber.org [66.251.72.75]) by mail2.nber.org (8.14.3/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o2R2reWU055134 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 22:53:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from feenberg@nber.org) Received: from nber5.nber.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nber5.nber.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o2R2Wseb006285; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 22:32:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (feenberg@localhost) by nber5.nber.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) with ESMTP id o2R2WrKf006282; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 22:32:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: nber5.nber.org: feenberg owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 22:32:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Feenberg To: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Anti-Virus: Kaspersky Anti-Virus for Linux Mail Server 5.6.39/RELEASE, bases: 20100326 #3878376, check: 20100327 clean X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=38% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 02:53:52 -0000 On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, Derek J. Balling wrote: > > On Mar 26, 2010, at 12:22 PM, geoffrey papilion wrote: >> I ran 100% of page requests from 5 of the top 15 internet retailers >> through black friday and cyber monday on software load balancers. >> There were no issue from the linux box, and we used most of the >> features you listed above. >> >> It was a 40k per data center savings, and was one of the most >> successful projects of my career. It had about 1/2 the performance of >> an F5 3400, but then again I ran out of load testing clients. It was a >> standard Sun x4150. >> >> I think the F5 is a great appliance, I also think its over priced. > > Real questions, speaking to TCO: > > - How much do you make per year? > - How many man-days did it take you, start to finish, to get it completely working and stable? > - How many man-days per year do you spend maintaining/tweaking/etc.? (NOT configuration, as you'd have that in any scenario). > If I may interject a comment, the main difference between an appliance and a general purpose computer, is that when management asks you if you can do something, and you have an appliance, you can truthfully say "Our system does not support that" while with a general purpose computer you have to answer "I'll have to read up on how to do that". The later may indeed be time-consuming. Here we have general purpose computers and Network Appliance for file storage. The NetApps are much faster, but they are no easier to install or aminister. And while snapshots are great, there is a long list of other features they don't support (such as rsync) that we miss. Every vendor is in constant danger of being acquired, divested or turned around. When that happens you and your box are no longer "strategic", and contract or not, requests for help are likely to be brushed aside. Even with an enforcable contract, the vendor can easily discourage calls for service by proposing solutions that don't save your data. Daniel Feenberg From dredd@megacity.org Fri Mar 26 21:12:55 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2R4CttB079994 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 21:12:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2R4CqG6002129 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 21:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B1EE1F70026; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:12:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id odbNHXXJZAwV; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:12:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from akebono.megacity.org (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DEFFB1F70008; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:12:44 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:12:43 -0400 Message-Id: <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> To: Daniel Feenberg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 04:12:56 -0000 On Mar 26, 2010, at 10:32 PM, Daniel Feenberg wrote: > If I may interject a comment, the main difference between an appliance = and a general purpose computer, is that when management asks you if you = can do something, and you have an appliance, you can truthfully say "Our = system does not support that" while with a general purpose computer you = have to answer "I'll have to read up on how to do that". The later may = indeed be time-consuming. And the answer still may end up being "I spent three days researching = it, and it can't be done", or, "I spent a week tinkering with it, and = it'll take a man-month to make it do that." To many organizations, including my own, that opportunity cost is real. = We have limited headcount as it is, and "wanting to build stuff = in-house" is almost never a justification for adding a headcount. = Companies are happy to depreciate a capital expense over four years and = be done with it rather than take on an additional headcount, with all = the responsibilities that come with that. > Here we have general purpose computers and Network Appliance for file = storage. The NetApps are much faster, but they are no easier to install = or aminister. And while snapshots are great, there is a long list of = other features they don't support (such as rsync) that we miss. And when your in-house talent who knows the homebrew stuff get spirited = away by the lure of stock-options somewhere else, or they get hit by a = bus? When you need to hire someone, today, who can leap right in and fix = stuff... do you want to spend time with someone having to blunder their = way through unfamiliar ground trying to bring themselves up to speed on = your home-brewed = load-balancing-firewall-it-can-do-everything-it's-linux-dammit box? Or = do you want to say, "I need a network guy with $LB_VENDOR experience, = $FW_VENDOR experience, and $ROUTER_VENDOR experience", and find a resume = in the copious stack of resumes who has those vendors -- because they're = common everyday vendors that every network guy worth his salt has = learned how to manage? Me? I want something that even if me and my network guy both fall into a = fiery oblivion, the people left behind will be like, "OK, they're using = F5 model XXXX load-balancers, Juniper J-series routers, and some Cisco = ASA firewalls. I can find someone to do that." "Enterprise Homebrewers" are -- from my experience only, mind you -- = people who are more concerned about showing off how smart they are and = maintaining their sense of power and authority than they are what's good = for the long-term viability of the organization they work for. If you = cooked it yourself, they need to keep you around, because you're the one = who built the damned thing, who could they hire who knows it better than = you? And it feeds into one's ego -- and anyone who thinks our trade = isn't ego-driven is kidding themselves. > Every vendor is in constant danger of being acquired, divested or = turned around. When that happens you and your box are no longer = "strategic", and contract or not, requests for help are likely to be = brushed aside. Even with an enforcable contract, the vendor can easily = discourage calls for service by proposing solutions that don't save your = data. That just comes down to doing due diligence on the financial background = of the companies you do business with. I know we've kicked one network = vendor to the curb, partly for bad support and partly because their = financial future seemed very iffy to us. We went with the more expensive = price:performance supplier because they had a more sound financial = backing, and we feel they're in it for the long haul. From treed@copilotco.com Fri Mar 26 23:07:01 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2R670SJ082310 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 23:07:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2R66vsD004173 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 23:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 8641D64C82; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 23:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 23:06:56 -0700 From: Tracy Reed To: "Derek J. Balling" Message-ID: <20100327060656.GI3490@tracyreed.org> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="53TzBEXPl5+8hjUY" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 06:07:01 -0000 --53TzBEXPl5+8hjUY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 12:12:43AM -0400, Derek J. Balling spake thusly: > vendors -- because they're common everyday vendors that every > network guy worth his salt has learned how to manage? Any Linux guy worth his salt can read:=20 http://www.redhat.com/support/resources/howto/piranha/ or http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/csgfs/browse/rh-cs-en-3/pt-lvs.html and have an LVS load balancer figured out. > "Enterprise Homebrewers" are -- from my experience only, mind you -- > people who are more concerned about showing off how smart they are > and maintaining their sense of power and authority than they are > what's good for the long-term viability of the organization they > work for. More like the boss said, "We can't afford to drop $50k on this. Build it." > If you cooked it yourself, they need to keep you around, > because you're the one who built the damned thing, who could they > hire who knows it better than you? I think you misunderstand the amount of "cooking" involved in this stuff these days. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --53TzBEXPl5+8hjUY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLraCA9PIYKZYVAq0RAr3aAKCBYC7pJE72/Zf1DKqLVhif+UO3wgCfenaz CDVZZ2B0EUK6yP/61Nh1OQI= =0dxE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --53TzBEXPl5+8hjUY-- From treed@copilotco.com Fri Mar 26 23:15:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2R6F7cU082501 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 23:15:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2R6F4rS004303 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 23:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id BBDE764C82; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 23:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 23:15:04 -0700 From: Tracy Reed To: "Derek J. Balling" Message-ID: <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ImSVV91IQg5ga+3z" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 06:15:08 -0000 --ImSVV91IQg5ga+3z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 12:12:43AM -0400, Derek J. Balling spake thusly: > To many organizations, including my own, that opportunity cost is > real. We have limited headcount as it is, and "wanting to build > stuff in-house" is almost never a justification for adding a > headcount. Also note that in my client's organization for whom I most recently built a pair of lvs load balancers with $2M in annual revenue adding headcount isn't an option either. Not until revenue increases by at least another $150k+ (7.5%) just to cover it (salary plus office space, taxes, social security, benefits, etc. etc.) There are a lot of folks like this out there. A lot of you are missing the point here: We don't all work for huge companies who can afford to spend loads of money on this sort of thing. A lot of sysadmins work for mom and pop shops. The small-time folks need sysadmins too. A lot of small businesses *have no choice* but to build it. There is a time to build and a time to buy. Since we can't all be Google's and Facebook's and load balancers are darn useful machines to have in your rack most of us end up building. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --ImSVV91IQg5ga+3z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLraJo9PIYKZYVAq0RAmgMAJ45lWocp0DnsQTBKt0gx/P9ozJRjgCfcAKS Oase553pvKIeC9Ga4Z5jBL0= =H+d+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ImSVV91IQg5ga+3z-- From tal@whatexit.org Sat Mar 27 04:52:07 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2RBq6WX091669 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 04:52:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-qy0-f204.google.com (mail-qy0-f204.google.com [209.85.221.204]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2RBq3Pf017296 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 04:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qyk42 with SMTP id 42so1260595qyk.7 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 04:51:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.84.6 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 04:51:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 07:51:55 -0400 Received: by 10.229.131.39 with SMTP id v39mr968099qcs.66.1269690715996; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 04:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: Tracy Reed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:52:07 -0000 When you build from scratch, you have to become very good at every aspect of the technology. When you buy an appliance, you have to become good at vendor management. The former is much more appealing to sysadmins, curious about expanding their knowledge. The latter is much more appealing to managers, tasked with building a sustainable corporation. For every sysadmin book that explains how to "build it yourself" there are very few that explain vendor management.* The benefit of going with an appliance is "Force Multiplier". Yes, I could build one myself, but I could buy one and then have more time to do other work. Tom * My books talk about it a little, but this thread has made me realize we could do a more complete job of it, filling an entire chapter. From feenberg@nber.org Sat Mar 27 07:23:24 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2RENNDT095308 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 07:23:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from feenberg@nber.org) Received: from mail2.nber.org (mail2.nber.org [66.251.72.79]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2RENKVj020262 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 07:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nber5.nber.org (nber5.nber.org [66.251.72.75]) by mail2.nber.org (8.14.3/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o2RENDBX085418 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:23:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from feenberg@nber.org) Received: from nber5.nber.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nber5.nber.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o2RE2PJf024186; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:02:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (feenberg@localhost) by nber5.nber.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) with ESMTP id o2RE2Nun024183; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:02:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: nber5.nber.org: feenberg owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:02:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Feenberg To: Tom Limoncelli In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Anti-Virus: Kaspersky Anti-Virus for Linux Mail Server 5.6.39/RELEASE, bases: 20100327 #3880125, check: 20100327 clean X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=36% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 14:23:25 -0000 On Sat, 27 Mar 2010, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > When you build from scratch, you have to become very good at every > aspect of the technology. > When you buy an appliance, you have to become good at vendor management. > > The former is much more appealing to sysadmins, curious about > expanding their knowledge. The latter is much more appealing to > managers, tasked with building a sustainable corporation. > > For every sysadmin book that explains how to "build it yourself" there > are very few that explain vendor management.* > > The benefit of going with an appliance is "Force Multiplier". Yes, I > could build one myself, but I could buy one and then have more time to > do other work. > > Tom > > * My books talk about it a little, but this thread has made me realize > we could do a more complete job of it, filling an entire chapter. I don't think it is mostly a matter of purchasor skill. The vendors know who is likely to be a significant repeat purchasor, and who is a small guy with little potential for follow on business. Support calls from the former are taken seriously, from the latter are ignored. One thing about sys-admins is that they have no ability to consider that other sys-admins are in different situations. You think that because you get support when you call a vendor, that I would too. But I won't and neither would anyone else my size. Any support call can be legitimately closed with "We don't support that" or "feature request" and most are. Furthermore, the notion that knowledge of how to work appliances is widespread, and knowledge of Linux/FreeBSD is not, is simply not credible. Aside from Cisco routers and switches , there are no appliances in widespread use. And no, a couple of thousand load balancing boxes does not constitute "widespread". The NetApp is perhaps an intermediate case, but certainly there are more contributors to the Linux kernel than there are NetApp boxes in use today. Daniel Feenberg > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From pjg@buffalo.edu Sat Mar 27 07:56:07 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2REu7T8096034 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 07:56:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pjg@buffalo.edu) Received: from localmailB.acsu.buffalo.edu (localmailB.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.5.200]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2REu4Uv020844 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 07:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55FD4314 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:49:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown-host by localmailB.acsu.buffalo.edu with queue (Sophos PureMessage Version 5.406) id 414999-3 for sage-members@sage.org; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 14:46:44 GMT Received: from localmailB.acsu.buffalo.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localmailB.acsu.buffalo.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ED46A7F; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:46:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mweb2.acsu.buffalo.edu (mweb2.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.5.239]) by localmailB.acsu.buffalo.edu (Prefixe) with ESMTP id 12B57A83; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:46:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.69.1] (thebookofinexhaustibledelirium.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.123.24]) by mweb2.acsu.buffalo.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7BD5207A9; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:46:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Graham Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:46:42 -0400 To: Sage Members Message-Id: <2AA64338-7F9D-42B4-9A9B-71C47D8EBECF@buffalo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-PM-EL-Spam-Prob: : 8% X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2REu7T8096034 Subject: [SAGE] Sendmail/Postfix etc. admin to Exchange admin training X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 14:56:07 -0000 I'm looking for resources to take someone reasonably familiar with Sendmail/Qmail/Postfix to being a competent Exchange administrator. The target audience has no experience running any Windows based services or servers and may find Windows a foreign environment. Any tips? Thanks. -- paul From nhruby@gmail.com Sat Mar 27 08:36:40 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2RFaeax096733 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 08:36:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nhruby@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iw0-f203.google.com (mail-iw0-f203.google.com [209.85.223.203]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2RFabEX021594 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 08:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iwn41 with SMTP id 41so549620iwn.20 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 08:36:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:received:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8Ej3zNeT7dLeUf1dE5hLKY3/s9Lz9EVOFCkhwJrD0VE=; b=hpahB2SvdflppFqSdqzk8JxC2IVt2D1uMwFWhVzsptnNsXVDx21GD54+WWoPE0aiRJ qi9S0Kr333FgNtVOTNXpN80tVmQVyxZwY5CGNTztS1uixztuk2p3iM9rv/9rjZuYKW/h zpQJ4QI+UbDF/HPWIGoWx1EFRso5BGvKuORPc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=anUzU3nWwJ2cfxiGwWcchOnlXtv1JO+W+a04Ypf3gBHCDrxolqtp+7bU45sEDfyCt2 28J+MEsq1i2BKxioP+gT6veXca6I1wAdkGtEJAG4i4iA9UNvWtypiROkSFiZeA4d6nS5 6XIY0c1EGa2gTYeOBoQA7Ng35cqI3Z5xXuYC4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: nhruby@gmail.com Received: by 10.231.158.78 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 08:36:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:36:30 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 646b6c9f94c72f56 Received: by 10.231.149.10 with SMTP id r10mr1257468ibv.63.1269704190242; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 08:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Nathan Hruby To: Tom Limoncelli Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2RFaeax096733 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:36:41 -0000 On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 6:51 AM, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > When you build from scratch, you have to become very good at every > aspect of the technology. > When you buy an appliance, you have to become good at vendor management. > > The former is much more appealing to sysadmins, curious about > expanding their knowledge.  The latter is much more appealing to > managers, tasked with building a sustainable corporation. > Right, and as a corollary I offer "Don't spend massive amounts of money/time/energy/thought on non-core parts of the business when you can easily use a pre-fab solution." To me, one of the important things that a steward of technology for any organization should be doing is ensuring that the core parts of their operations are tuned for the organizations' needs. In a lot of instances this means that you need to sit down a build from scratch the things that really matter and that you need to have the technical depth and breath of knowledge to support those things well. For the other instances where you're working on ancillary or supporting systems/interfaces/projects, you're probably doing a disservice to your organization by spending your valuable time doing that kind of deep technical implementation to make everything "just right" when you can instead get 80% - 90% of the way there easily using an off-the-shelf product. It's really important to keep the context of what you're doing in mind when making the "build versus buy" decision. -n -- ------------------------------------------- nathan hruby metaphysically wrinkle-free ------------------------------------------- From ajd@tasteslikeburning.net Sat Mar 27 09:07:09 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2RG786M097468 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 09:07:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ajd@tasteslikeburning.net) Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com (mail-pw0-f41.google.com [209.85.160.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2RG75DQ022111 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 09:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pwi2 with SMTP id 2so2098596pwi.28 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 09:07:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.174.11 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 09:07:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:07:00 -0400 Received: by 10.141.23.17 with SMTP id a17mr2312370rvj.294.1269706020516; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 09:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2b31b18a1003270907x74a975a4md7a060f2c99a3989@mail.gmail.com> From: Anthony DeStefano To: Nathan Hruby Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=3% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2RG786M097468 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 16:07:09 -0000 On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 11:36 AM, Nathan Hruby wrote: > > To me, one of the important things that a steward of technology for > any organization should be doing is ensuring that the core parts of > their operations are tuned for the organizations' needs.  In a lot of > instances this means that you need to sit down a build from scratch > the things that really matter and that you need to have the technical > depth and breath of knowledge to support those things well. > > For the other instances where you're working on ancillary or > supporting systems/interfaces/projects, you're probably doing a > disservice to your organization by spending your valuable time doing > that kind of deep technical implementation to make everything "just > right" when you can instead get 80% - 90% of the way there easily > using an off-the-shelf product. > > It's really important to keep the context of what you're doing in mind > when making the "build versus buy" decision. The culture of the organization can also play a large part in the decision. There are places that will only use solutions that are supported by a third-party vendor. Other places have a culture of building and tweaking things to be 100% in-line with their vision. I believe the middle ground is usually the right answer. -Anthony From tal@whatexit.org Sat Mar 27 10:01:30 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2RH1UZr098526 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:01:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.146]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2RH1Rkj023014 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 4so1879251qwk.22 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:01:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.84.6 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:01:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2b31b18a1003270907x74a975a4md7a060f2c99a3989@mail.gmail.com> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <2b31b18a1003270907x74a975a4md7a060f2c99a3989@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 13:01:26 -0400 Received: by 10.229.222.8 with SMTP id ie8mr1433710qcb.16.1269709286497; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7d49b3d91003271001y70d73431r2f682a476c4826aa@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: Anthony DeStefano Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=8% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 17:01:31 -0000 On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Anthony DeStefano wrote: > The culture of the organization can also play a large part in the > decision. There are places that will only use solutions that are > supported by a third-party vendor. Other places have a culture of > building and tweaking things to be 100% in-line with their vision. > > I believe the middle ground is usually the right answer. I agree. But this being the internet, let me ramble a bit... We surveyed our customers. Half wanted hot tea. The other half wanted iced tea. So we're going to serve luke warm tea and... what? nobody is happy? But... but... I think your first paragraph nailed it. No need for the last bit part about middle ground. It *is* about the culture of the organization. Most are very happy with the engineering done for them. A few do some customization. There is a long tail that ends with companies that build everything from scratch. The ones that build anything in-house are actually quite rare; just very popular on mailing lists like this. I've often wondered if appliances would make system administration irrelevant. What I'm finding, however, is that there is way too much work to be done and appliances actually take away the boring stuff. Tom -- http://EverythingSysadmin.com -- http://www.TomOnTime.com Computer and network administrators... Spread the word! LOPSA New Jersey Professional IT Community Conference New Brunswick, NJ, May 7-8, 2010 -- http://picconf.org From jens@quux.de Sat Mar 27 10:57:05 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2RHv5j8099743 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:57:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.quux.de (mail.quux.de [88.198.11.141]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2RHv1Dp023966 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bowmore.quux.de (dslb-088-074-000-036.pools.arcor-ip.net [88.74.0.36]) by mail.quux.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA id EB59F1204095 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:48:01 +0100 (CET) Received: by bowmore.quux.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 098D55803F; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:50:34 +0100 (CET) To: Sage Members Organization: - X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! References: <2AA64338-7F9D-42B4-9A9B-71C47D8EBECF@buffalo.edu> From: Jens Link Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:50:33 +0100 In-Reply-To: <2AA64338-7F9D-42B4-9A9B-71C47D8EBECF@buffalo.edu> (Paul Graham's message of "Sat\, 27 Mar 2010 10\:46\:42 -0400") Message-ID: <87r5n5hcwm.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sendmail/Postfix etc. admin to Exchange admin training X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 17:57:05 -0000 Paul Graham writes: > I'm looking for resources to take someone reasonably familiar with > Sendmail/Qmail/Postfix to being a competent Exchange administrator. The > target audience has no experience running any Windows based services or > servers and may find Windows a foreign environment. > > Any tips? Is getting a new job an option? Or hiring an experienced Exchange admin? I don't think that you can turn someone with no or little windows experience into someone who can expertly maintain an Exchange setup with just a couple of course. Windows looks easy but it isn't. It takes a lot of experience and a hight threshold for pain. It sounds like the story you hear from German public institutions a lot: "Smith, your doing databases for 20 year. We'll promote you but you'll have to do networking. Come on it almost identical. And Miller, I know your the network guru, but you we'll also be promoted and have to take care of our Oracle servers." (BTST) Jens BTW: A friend of mine maintains a postifx/dovecot setup for a large German clinic. They also have Exchange. He usually says that their users can choose between a working mail system with plenty of mail box space and Exchange. ;-) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jens@quux.de Sat Mar 27 11:35:17 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2RIZHrp000688 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:35:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.quux.de (mail.quux.de [88.198.11.141]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2RIZEax024603 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:35:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bowmore.quux.de (dslb-088-074-000-036.pools.arcor-ip.net [88.74.0.36]) by mail.quux.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E8F711204095 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:32:37 +0100 (CET) Received: by bowmore.quux.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 282F85803F; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:35:10 +0100 (CET) To: sage-members@usenix.org Organization: - X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> From: Jens Link Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:35:10 +0100 In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> (Tom Limoncelli's message of "Sat\, 27 Mar 2010 07\:51\:55 -0400") Message-ID: <87r5n5fw9t.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:35:18 -0000 Tom Limoncelli writes: Hi, > The benefit of going with an appliance is "Force Multiplier". Yes, I > could build one myself, but I could buy one and then have more time to > do other work. There are appliances and appliances. In the past I had to deal with several Linux based appliances which made it incredibly hard to troubleshoot problems or to setup simple maintenance tasks like automated backups because you didn't have access to the command line. I also think that appliances are likely to be forgotten when it comes to updates. I've seen customers religiously updating their Windows systems. They checked there Linux systems every other month (even systems facing the Internet, there was no rush to update e.g. a buggy Apache because "these systems are protected by firewalls".). Appliances, routes, switches, firewall never got patched. Well maybe not never but never because of security issues. And did I mention the customer with an security appliance running 2 year old version of Apache, PHP and MySQL? It was supposed to protect the wireless network from the normal LAN, especially against all those nasty worms attacking windows systems. Well it did blocked evil protocols like SSH but let every Windows protocol right through. :-( Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jens@quux.de Sat Mar 27 11:44:52 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2RIiqks000892 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:44:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.quux.de (mail.quux.de [88.198.11.141]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2RIinkn024769 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bowmore.quux.de (dslb-088-074-000-036.pools.arcor-ip.net [88.74.0.36]) by mail.quux.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E73C51204095 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:42:13 +0100 (CET) Received: by bowmore.quux.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D4BCB5803F; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:44:45 +0100 (CET) To: sage-members@usenix.org Organization: - X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <2b31b18a1003270907x74a975a4md7a060f2c99a3989@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91003271001y70d73431r2f682a476c4826aa@mail.gmail.com> From: Jens Link Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:44:45 +0100 In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91003271001y70d73431r2f682a476c4826aa@mail.gmail.com> (Tom Limoncelli's message of "Sat\, 27 Mar 2010 13\:01\:26 -0400") Message-ID: <87eij5fvtu.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:44:52 -0000 Tom Limoncelli writes: > I've often wondered if appliances would make system administration > irrelevant. What I'm finding, however, is that there is way too much > work to be done and appliances actually take away the boring stuff. If I can automated stuff. If I have to use a not very functional and slow (Java) GUI for each and everything they make my life harder. But hey. It has a niche GUI. And just ssh to access a server edit a file with vi and restart a service is so 20th century. With many appliance you have to start the web browser, start an Java applet, notice that it only supports Windows with IE, connect to a terminal server via RDP, login, startup IE, start the applet again, wait, click away some error messages, wait, login, click, click, click, wait, click, click, edit, click, click. click, wait, answering user complaints because the change is taking to long, wait, click, click, logout. BTST Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From tal@whatexit.org Sat Mar 27 12:02:09 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2RJ29kM001365 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:02:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.148]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2RJ26we025079 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 4so1891015qwk.22 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:02:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.84.6 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:02:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87eij5fvtu.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <2b31b18a1003270907x74a975a4md7a060f2c99a3989@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91003271001y70d73431r2f682a476c4826aa@mail.gmail.com> <87eij5fvtu.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:02:05 -0400 Received: by 10.229.222.8 with SMTP id ie8mr1561835qcb.16.1269716525749; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7d49b3d91003271202r3d8e6d95v16ff8d0d0972dbb9@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: Jens Link Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2RJ29kM001365 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:02:10 -0000 On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Jens Link wrote: > Tom Limoncelli writes: > >> I've often wondered if appliances would make system administration >> irrelevant.  What I'm finding, however, is that there is way too much >> work to be done and appliances actually take away the boring stuff. > > If I can automated stuff. If I have to use a not very functional and > slow (Java) GUI for each and everything they make my life harder. But > hey. It has a niche GUI. And just ssh to access a server edit a file > with vi and restart a service is so 20th century. > > With many appliance you have to start the web browser, start an Java > applet, notice that it only supports Windows with IE, connect to a > terminal server via RDP, login, startup IE, start the applet again, > wait, click away some error messages, wait, login, click, click, click, > wait, click, click, edit, click, click. click, wait, answering user > complaints because the change is taking to long, wait, click, click, > logout. And yet, companies keep starting up that create such GUI systems. It's a shame. (Sorry for the advertisement but: If you are coming to the PICC conference, http://picconf.org the closing keynote is a researcher that has captured on video tape exactly why such GUIs are disliked by sysadmins. http://lopsanj.org/events/picc10/keynotes Usenix is a bronze sponsor of the conference. If you live in the NJ/NY/CT/DE/PA area, please come to our conference! Regional conferences are your best sysadmin value!) When I mentioned "vendor management" some people interpreted that as the process of buying stuff. I think of it as the entire relationship, from requirements to decommissioning. If this is a key technology, do you have periodic meetings with the vendor for bi-directional communication. For minor projects, what communication do you have that substitutes for periodic meetings. The method used to report and track bugs, and assure that there is follow through. How are security holes fixed. How are upgrades managed. etc etc. Different appliances and different situations result in different needs. I know one company that upgraded the software on all Cisco routers once a year "whether it needed it or not". Another that took every security patch, tested in it their lab, then deployed it within days. A file server appliance might need regular upkeep, or it may be "security patches only". When I mentioned the need for skills related to vendor management, I was referring to the skills and knowledge required to ask the right questions and manage the above issues properly. It's probably as difficult as building things in-house, but a different skill set. Tom -- http://EverythingSysadmin.com -- http://www.TomOnTime.com Computer and network administrators... Spread the word! LOPSA New Jersey Professional IT Community Conference New Brunswick, NJ, May 7-8, 2010 -- http://picconf.org From ted@cabeen.org Sat Mar 27 12:09:29 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2RJ9T9c001458 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:09:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@cabeen.org) Received: from mega.chem.ucsb.edu (mega.chem.ucsb.edu [128.111.114.13]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2RJ9Qgn025224 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mega.chem.ucsb.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6407261D7BE for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:09:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: Scanned at mega.chem.ucsb.edu Received: from mega.chem.ucsb.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mega.chem.ucsb.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id At95OnE6r8gD for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.63] (ip98-182-16-122.sb.sd.cox.net [98.182.16.122]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: cabeen) by mega.chem.ucsb.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5DA261D7AB for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BAE57E6.8080203@cabeen.org> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:09:26 -0700 From: Ted Cabeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> In-Reply-To: <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=94% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:09:30 -0000 Beyond mom and pop shops, a lot of sysadmins work at universities and other non-profits with very limited resources and strange billing and financial setups. Once you've hired a sysadmin you have that sysadmin ~48 weeks a year. However, sometimes the work they were initially hired to do is done, and is in maintenance mode. That's where build-it seems to come most often into play. There's extra time and leftover/commodity hardware available, so setting up a software load balancer or some other piece of tech is an interesting project. Set it up, try it out, if it provides value to the enterprise, then resource it up. It's much easier to get approval to make a service that already exists reliable and enterprise-grade than it is to get approval to buy an appliance that might not even work the way you need it to. Build-it-yourself has a much lower barrier to entry. --Ted On 3/26/2010 11:15 PM, Tracy Reed wrote: > Also note that in my client's organization for whom I most recently > built a pair of lvs load balancers with $2M in annual revenue adding > headcount isn't an option either. Not until revenue increases by at > least another $150k+ (7.5%) just to cover it (salary plus office > space, taxes, social security, benefits, etc. etc.) > > There are a lot of folks like this out there. > > A lot of you are missing the point here: We don't all work for huge > companies who can afford to spend loads of money on this sort of > thing. A lot of sysadmins work for mom and pop shops. The small-time > folks need sysadmins too. A lot of small businesses *have no choice* > but to build it. There is a time to build and a time to buy. Since we > can't all be Google's and Facebook's and load balancers are darn > useful machines to have in your rack most of us end up building. From kurt.buff@gmail.com Sat Mar 27 12:11:06 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2RJB59P001504 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:11:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iw0-f182.google.com (mail-iw0-f182.google.com [209.85.223.182]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2RJB2XQ025266 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iwn12 with SMTP id 12so8907090iwn.21 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:10:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QviJExpLOt9ihxdLGIEgD/13M072mQ8RPGmRYK2TUvE=; b=nLY2c0a3Wtp1eR+9XuJolzoklUrBfgFKoRvhoEfp6rdMoXXo1LkUsR249EhtW/PCv3 wNOgKbLWlQLi3JumaT+0a/J9C82CkFuuozmPsXdhHmBgBMTagJQu0HeBt+Azl64V5Vre 7ouBZYryRjpy+7D8X24H/wQAaI23umRuNEodA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=XZ7Iy9b5xtwCAdHyuyWH2bOJCWnlBePes83PcOdvQDywJ3pulk8vbQmBy6k53wowAQ gH7rZSVgwdnG8fCoraKtA6K9zLiHwXAfsw2jtoI26mjWk9tAgRRSAQ1vskuE6fsx6tWK fNVxqU/kgc8+go6YVUa/123WeentWuWJuAFqs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.15.140 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:05:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2AA64338-7F9D-42B4-9A9B-71C47D8EBECF@buffalo.edu> References: <2AA64338-7F9D-42B4-9A9B-71C47D8EBECF@buffalo.edu> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:05:06 -0700 Received: by 10.231.148.1 with SMTP id n1mr1344190ibv.96.1269716706194; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Kurt Buff To: Sage Members Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2RJB59P001504 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sendmail/Postfix etc. admin to Exchange admin training X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:11:06 -0000 On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 07:46, Paul Graham wrote: > I'm looking for resources to take someone reasonably familiar with Sendmail/Qmail/Postfix to being a competent Exchange administrator.  The target audience has no experience running any Windows based services or servers and may find Windows a foreign environment. > > Any tips? > > Thanks. > -- > paul Get them into a course of study leading to an MCSE: http://www.microsoft.com/learning/en/us/certification/mcse.aspx Given that the candidate has no Windows experience, unless he's a genius, or a complete test hound, expect it to take at least a year. Exchange depends on Active Directory, which depends on DNS (and probably WINS, too), and so much else. Kurt From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Sat Mar 27 12:39:04 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2RJd4SD002184 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:39:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toq10-srv.bellnexxia.net (toq10-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.117]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2RJd1Lm025650 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toip3.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.86]) by tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100327192209.BRYK3465.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip3.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:22:09 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAH/zrUtMRCSF/2dsb2JhbAAHpDuncwGNOIJvAYIRBA Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279534213.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.68.36.133]) by toip3.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 27 Mar 2010 15:09:53 -0400 Message-Id: From: David Magda To: Tom Limoncelli In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91003271202r3d8e6d95v16ff8d0d0972dbb9@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:22:07 -0400 References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <2b31b18a1003270907x74a975a4md7a060f2c99a3989@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91003271001y70d73431r2f682a476c4826aa@mail.gmail.com> <87eij5fvtu.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> <7d49b3d91003271202r3d8e6d95v16ff8d0d0972dbb9@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:39:05 -0000 On Mar 27, 2010, at 15:02, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Jens Link wrote: >> Tom Limoncelli writes: >> >>> I've often wondered if appliances would make system administration >>> irrelevant. What I'm finding, however, is that there is way too >>> much >>> work to be done and appliances actually take away the boring stuff. >> >> If I can automated stuff. If I have to use a not very functional and >> slow (Java) GUI for each and everything they make my life harder. But >> hey. It has a niche GUI. And just ssh to access a server edit a file >> with vi and restart a service is so 20th century. >> >> With many appliance you have to start the web browser, start an Java >> applet, notice that it only supports Windows with IE, connect to a >> terminal server via RDP, login, startup IE, start the applet again, >> wait, click away some error messages, wait, login, click, click, >> click, >> wait, click, click, edit, click, click. click, wait, answering user >> complaints because the change is taking to long, wait, click, click, >> logout. > > > And yet, companies keep starting up that create such GUI systems. > It's a shame. Command lines aren't always better: Cisco's IOS had/has an interface that if you want to make the same change to multiple interface you had to go to each interface's "sub-menu" and do it. I usually ended up making a for-loop in a shell that would echo the commands to a file and do a copy-and-paste. Their CatOS didn't have this problem, and I think they fixed it in recent released of IOS as well. Jon Udell once wrote in "BYTE" (long ago) that Windows will get you from 0-60 faster than Unix, but you need Unix to go from 60-100. I think this is true of the GUI versus CLI mind sets in general. Sometimes it's nice to have something "easy" for "simple" things (especially if you're a beginner, which we all are at some point). The problem occurs when you can't move beyond it. Mac OS X does this pretty well: GUI with CLI stuff underneath. Microsoft is kind of learning this, or has at least conceded it to a certain extent, with PowerShell. When Sun created their storage appliances they acknowledged it by having a web-based GUI but also a command line you could SSH into. NetApp and Brocade also have both AFAIK. And while Java may not be the best for this, it was until recently the only game in town for cross-platform support. Nowadays you can do a lot of stuff with pure HTML and JavaScript (AJAX), but for over a long time it would be hard to imagine doing a complex (GUI) interface without it. Going forward with HTML5, canvas, SVG, etc., we may be able to minimize Java and have web interfaces go back to what Tim Berners-Lee originally wanted: being able to share without worrying about architectures. > When I mentioned "vendor management" some people interpreted that as > the process of buying stuff. I think of it as the entire > relationship, from requirements to decommissioning. If this is a key There are also software vendors, unless you want to write your own ERP, HR, etc., systems from scratch. Not everything has been "commoditized" by open source. > Different appliances and different situations result in different > needs. I know one company that upgraded the software on all Cisco > routers once a year "whether it needed it or not". Another that took > every security patch, tested in it their lab, then deployed it within > days. A file server appliance might need regular upkeep, or it may be > "security patches only". A while back I asked about patch management software here, and there wasn't too much really. In the process of poking around I did run across SANS' "Twenty Critical Security Controls for Effective Cyber Defense": http://www.sans.org/critical-security-controls/ Number ten was "Continuous Vulnerability Assessment and Remediation": > Soon after new vulnerabilities are discovered and reported by > security researchers or vendors, attackers engineer exploit code and > then launch that code against targets of interest. Any significant > delays in finding or fixing software with critical vulnerabilities > provides ample opportunity for persistent attackers to break > through, gaining control over the vulnerable machines and getting > access to the sensitive data they contain. Organizations that do not > scan for vulnerabilities and address discovered flaws proactively > face a significant likelihood of having their computer systems > compromised. http://www.sans.org/critical-security-controls/control.php?id=10 If you base your infrastructure on 'regular' operating systems, you have one less area of vulnerability to worry about: when you follow your Linux patches you can do it for everything. If you have appliances, you now have to track more security updates. Either way, automating it (for both DIY and appliances) would be a good idea. From dredd@megacity.org Sat Mar 27 12:56:34 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2RJuYSU002371 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:56:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2RJuVqh025939 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED4951F70026; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:56:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QMDRvaopMdDc; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:56:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from akebono.megacity.org (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D4CC81F70008; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:56:24 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:56:23 -0400 Message-Id: <510108F1-807D-43F9-AAA2-5641E9668BC2@megacity.org> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> To: Daniel Feenberg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2RJuYSU002371 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org, Tom Limoncelli Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:56:34 -0000 On Mar 27, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Daniel Feenberg wrote: > Aside from Cisco routers and switches , there are no appliances in widespread use. Really? OK, I'm sorry, but I just can't take you seriously after that comment. I've yet to work at any place, large or small, that didn't have SOME sort of appliance, usually multiples, handling firewalls, load-balancing, memcached, file-service, serial concentration, etc., etc., the list goes on and on. From jens@quux.de Sat Mar 27 13:17:39 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2RKHdUD002800 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 13:17:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.quux.de (mail.quux.de [88.198.11.141]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2RKHZUN026209 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 13:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bowmore.quux.de (dslb-088-074-000-036.pools.arcor-ip.net [88.74.0.36]) by mail.quux.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 109CF1204095 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 21:15:00 +0100 (CET) Received: by bowmore.quux.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EB98B5883C; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 21:17:31 +0100 (CET) To: sage-members@usenix.org Organization: - X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <2b31b18a1003270907x74a975a4md7a060f2c99a3989@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91003271001y70d73431r2f682a476c4826aa@mail.gmail.com> <87eij5fvtu.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> <7d49b3d91003271202r3d8e6d95v16ff8d0d0972dbb9@mail.gmail.com> From: Jens Link Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 21:17:31 +0100 In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91003271202r3d8e6d95v16ff8d0d0972dbb9@mail.gmail.com> (Tom Limoncelli's message of "Sat\, 27 Mar 2010 15\:02\:05 -0400") Message-ID: <87d3ypbjtw.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 20:17:42 -0000 Tom Limoncelli writes: > Different appliances and different situations result in different > needs. Ack. But most sales people think that one size fits all. And many mangers believe in sales people. > I know one company that upgraded the software on all Cisco routers > once a year "whether it needed it or not". As a rule of thump: If you have a working IOS for your setup and there are no security problems, stick to it. Or at least test the new software before installing it. > Another that took every security patch, tested in it their lab, then > deployed it within days. Testing in a lab is always a good idea. One of your (networking) colleagues has a nice story about a big German ISP where one admin thought it was a good idea to test this brand new IOS on a core router without - testing it in a lab - telling his colleagues He was working from home and the router didn't came back up after the reload. > When I mentioned the need for skills related to vendor management, I > was referring to the skills and knowledge required to ask the right > questions and manage the above issues properly. It's probably as > difficult as building things in-house, but a different skill set. If we consider something like a router as appliance I agree. But for example Nagios monitoring, DNS, or Squid Proxy I prefer a *NIX Box with full root access rather then an appliance. Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jens@quux.de Sat Mar 27 13:25:11 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2RKPB3B002998 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 13:25:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.quux.de (mail.quux.de [88.198.11.141]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2RKP85Z026318 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 13:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bowmore.quux.de (dslb-088-074-000-036.pools.arcor-ip.net [88.74.0.36]) by mail.quux.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 065771204095 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 21:22:33 +0100 (CET) Received: by bowmore.quux.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EDC3C5883C; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 21:25:04 +0100 (CET) To: sage-members@usenix.org Organization: - X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <2b31b18a1003270907x74a975a4md7a060f2c99a3989@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91003271001y70d73431r2f682a476c4826aa@mail.gmail.com> <87eij5fvtu.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> <7d49b3d91003271202r3d8e6d95v16ff8d0d0972dbb9@mail.gmail.com> From: Jens Link Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 21:25:04 +0100 In-Reply-To: (David Magda's message of "Sat\, 27 Mar 2010 15\:22\:07 -0400") Message-ID: <878w9dbjhb.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 20:25:11 -0000 David Magda writes: > Command lines aren't always better: Cisco's IOS had/has an interface > that if you want to make the same change to multiple interface you had > to go to each interface's "sub-menu" and do it. interface range .... ? > I usually ended up making a for-loop in a shell that would echo the > commands to a file and do a copy-and-paste. I prefer this over typing directly. At least for big changes. Thinking before typing is a good thing. > And while Java may not be the best for this, it was until recently the > only game in town for cross-platform support. Can you please tell this to the people who wrote the Java applet I have to use once a month for the local tax office? They claim to support Ubuntu, but I always start the XP VMWARE. Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From merc248@gmail.com Sat Mar 27 13:45:36 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2RKjavg003276 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 13:45:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from merc248@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wy0-f169.google.com (mail-wy0-f169.google.com [74.125.82.169]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2RKjWOL027021 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 13:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wyf22 with SMTP id 22so4119700wyf.28 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 13:45:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=874bwjvC2HNWzsZou/KwQiytmZJzYZYDU/muacMrono=; b=l5wvPOtSitRkyssFZU1eUqGpH0vbZPwsruhXpwV97BRc7O35dgVRB8VA7gaANy6RRS OasGGXicbw9NeR1RviB9KE9lWXQMhWtzyumnSiBKXOxhYqxcnj1RFxk9qZEAeAR6lsSl JI7QGdce10dvM9urLWqon+fUUd0l0Eo/L/fZQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bI1mJVjXuSXY4rVALyo9h6psxoDlW7vBYoKvkLG2HYkLFujPizObJDWTYlNi3tWmWF pkwWvz6459rB6ng5282/eHejaxwhjDI5YSNM6WQtUXcLGr7sCUQoQlS7n0/jYR2rNUyI VW/LFYegZo+L6w6t0kgEiLdAvXgp4Ea2HQg+U= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.87.195 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 13:45:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87d3ypbjtw.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <2b31b18a1003270907x74a975a4md7a060f2c99a3989@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91003271001y70d73431r2f682a476c4826aa@mail.gmail.com> <87eij5fvtu.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> <7d49b3d91003271202r3d8e6d95v16ff8d0d0972dbb9@mail.gmail.com> <87d3ypbjtw.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 13:45:24 -0700 Received: by 10.216.88.10 with SMTP id z10mr255668wee.108.1269722724385; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 13:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2444fd7e1003271345y788415a4lb1df970cd4f92b56@mail.gmail.com> From: "merc248@gmail.com" To: Jens Link Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=26% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2RKjavg003276 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 20:45:37 -0000 On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Jens Link wrote: > If we consider something like a  router as appliance I agree. But for > example Nagios monitoring, DNS, or Squid Proxy I prefer a *NIX Box with > full root access rather then an appliance. > > Jens I have something to share that I thought was a little funny to me: there's a company called "JumpBox" (http://www.jumpbox.com) that sells a bunch of virtualized software appliances. They basically give you a VMware image with an already setup installation of Debian plus whatever software you were wanting, like Nagios, Cacti, etc. The funny thing is, they sell you an appliance but you still have to dive into the command line for some of the pieces of software in order to configure it properly. Oops. Might as well just install Debian + whatever piece of software from the repositories. -- christian "ian" paredes http://www.redbluemagenta.com From nhruby@gmail.com Sat Mar 27 15:07:23 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2RM7NUF005081 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:07:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nhruby@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iw0-f203.google.com (mail-iw0-f203.google.com [209.85.223.203]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2RM7KWt028021 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:07:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iwn41 with SMTP id 41so677447iwn.20 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:07:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:received:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mZie6klYLSV8thI/ZvEVja6P/FYPPMyyOW8Ym+CNo2s=; b=EQbPLDz7jMtr/cyxQmYvF8/iSP0lVXMd0OJ9Xt5rOwPJ3m6vak9b1LxXPHkVAUfXyx LJNwLpIKWM+yvfEOhqUqF5HlIzIFfU+LNBdCRN8S5idSqqWayaYtr0oNU80Bvz6jkyl1 9jgrXw4snUZkkHrHRjwdPQ7IAjbgSNBbB2Dn8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=GhxHI8WcCi6ni+phxu9UqbQxzp5dYl9jvyuKGUoYjBnPqpRxv4tp2bU3HjVmF76fZg BPyADT/UEXZVofM9BSCmEnL3e5NsWZPNHDbkBMbn0Q4NGDFvxG9L86zfYjrHp0BuXyhi wbRJLfwND9rIrlvZGt6CAuMnGiieZfDcVitoY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: nhruby@gmail.com Received: by 10.231.158.78 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:07:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91003271001y70d73431r2f682a476c4826aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <2b31b18a1003270907x74a975a4md7a060f2c99a3989@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91003271001y70d73431r2f682a476c4826aa@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 17:07:14 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0b862c0854ef1332 Received: by 10.231.153.1 with SMTP id i1mr1452875ibw.35.1269727634532; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Nathan Hruby To: Tom Limoncelli Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2RM7NUF005081 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 22:07:24 -0000 On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > We surveyed our customers.  Half wanted hot tea. The other half wanted > iced tea.  So we're going to serve luke warm tea and... what? nobody > is happy?  But... but... I'm not sure this is a great example, we all know we can't please everyone all of the time, and ignores the point that Anthony was trying to make of believing that someplace between "buy everything" and "build everything" there is a nice, natural sweet spot. In rebuttal to your example, I agree, serving luke warm tea makes no one happy. One would hope you served the tea that did the job best given the constraints of situation along with a nice note for the disenfranchised group explaining why the decision was made the way it was. > I think your first paragraph nailed it.  No need for the last bit part > about middle ground.   It *is* about the culture of the organization. > Most are very happy with the engineering done for them.  A few do some > customization.  There is a long tail that ends with companies that > build everything from scratch.  The ones that build anything in-house > are actually quite rare; just very popular on mailing lists like this. I disagree. I very often meet people who have custom-built things that help them differentiate their product or service in a meaningful way. It might be a small tool or massive integration of junk, but it really does provide an incalculable value to how they get stuff done. And without it they'd not be as successful as they were. These same people would never dare roll-their-own firewall, but would merrily write their own order-processing code in order to get every last second of efficiency out of their production line over their competitors. I also think broadly declaring the 'culture of the organization' as the end-all-be-all arbiter of how things get accomplished isn't terribly useful. There will always be organizations on one side of the extreme or the other, as well as organizations that have such cultural problems that sane people run screaming from the interview room regardless of whatever enticement got them there. Irrespective of culture, I still believe that every purchase/deployment/project/etc should get evaluated on its own merits (scope, context, cost, purpose, risk) in order to make the "build, buy, integrate, contract, or outsource?" decision. -n -- ------------------------------------------- nathan hruby metaphysically wrinkle-free ------------------------------------------- From allbery@ece.cmu.edu Sat Mar 27 15:12:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2RMC8BY005156 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:12:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu (BACHE.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.129.23]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2RMC5RB028097 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mress.kf8nh.com (static-72-77-17-40.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net [72.77.17.40]) (Authenticated sender: allbery@ECE.CMU.EDU) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F134BE2; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:12:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <7606DD3F-7935-4E03-A9CB-81E36AF8C8C4@ece.cmu.edu> From: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" To: Ted Cabeen In-Reply-To: <4BAE57E6.8080203@cabeen.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-27--637068434" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:11:47 -0400 References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <4BAE57E6.8080203@cabeen.org> X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.0 (v56) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 22:12:08 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-27--637068434 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 27, 2010, at 15:09 , Ted Cabeen wrote: > Beyond mom and pop shops, a lot of sysadmins work at universities > and other non-profits with very limited resources and strange > billing and financial setups. Once you've hired a sysadmin you have > that sysadmin ~48 weeks a year. However, sometimes the work they > were initially hired to do is done, and is in maintenance mode. > That's where build-it seems to come most often into play. Not to mention that appliances cost us a fair bit of money, but x86/ amd64 systems come to us free by the truckload. (It's also worth noting that we quite often find ourselves trying to find places to store those until they're needed; storage space is more expensive than almost anything else around here.) -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH --Apple-Mail-27--637068434 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkuugrEACgkQIn7hlCsL25V/5wCfVTvAaGb2ob1kz9WlqtvnafyQ Hd8AoLwXsnWtcGLphffFxvoNN/dhizaR =8w69 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-27--637068434-- From treed@copilotco.com Sat Mar 27 18:33:16 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2S1XGGM008925 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:33:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2S1XClg000179 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 58CEB64C81; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:33:12 -0700 From: Tracy Reed To: Jens Link Message-ID: <20100328013312.GP3490@tracyreed.org> References: <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <87r5n5fw9t.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ON0CT8LY+wgE1XqS" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87r5n5fw9t.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 01:33:16 -0000 --ON0CT8LY+wgE1XqS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 07:35:10PM +0100, Jens Link spake thusly: > I also think that appliances are likely to be forgotten when it comes to > updates. Yes, this is an issue. And then there is the issue of how do you do configuration management for an appliance? I like to keep all of my config files in version control. The appliances I do have usually have a have a web based GUI and no access to the configs. Some of them let you manually download a config file for backup purposes but that is somewhat tedious and rarely gets done properly. Of the appliances that we have, none of them have version controlled configs. None have backups except for the Fonality PBX which is very much stock RHEL running Asterisk. Since we all pretty much agree that appliances have their place somewhere be it based on company culture, depth of pockets, or whatever, and we mostly agree on what are Unix/Linux/Windows sysadmin best practices:=20 Could we have some discussion appliance best practices? Since you can't use cfengine/puppet/vcs/backup software (in most cases) how does one accomplish these things with an appliance and how does one set up a program or regime which ensures that these things get done? --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --ON0CT8LY+wgE1XqS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLrrHY9PIYKZYVAq0RApU7AKCEjCXmeICMhNVxzfjfdSZ6pP/59gCeMR49 c44Mrts4EwlybMVdJYsF6AE= =tqjV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ON0CT8LY+wgE1XqS-- From treed@copilotco.com Sat Mar 27 18:45:07 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2S1j7RB009242 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:45:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2S1j4HT000357 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 73C8864C81; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:45:04 -0700 From: Tracy Reed To: David Magda Message-ID: <20100328014504.GQ3490@tracyreed.org> References: <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <2b31b18a1003270907x74a975a4md7a060f2c99a3989@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91003271001y70d73431r2f682a476c4826aa@mail.gmail.com> <87eij5fvtu.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> <7d49b3d91003271202r3d8e6d95v16ff8d0d0972dbb9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TqjUw3h+J5USMjbw" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org, Tom Limoncelli Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 01:45:07 -0000 --TqjUw3h+J5USMjbw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 03:22:07PM -0400, David Magda spake thusly: > Command lines aren't always better: Cisco's IOS had/has an interface > that if you want to make the same change to multiple interface you Indeed. All of the switch command lines are rather poor examples. Similar to DOS. That was a lot of people's first clI experience and it really turned them off to such a degree that we now have Windows. > Jon Udell once wrote in "BYTE" (long ago) that Windows will get you > from 0-60 faster than Unix, but you need Unix to go from 60-100. I > think this is true of the GUI versus CLI mind sets in general. I like to say that it makes the simple things easy and the complicated things impossible. :) > There are also software vendors, unless you want to write your own > ERP, HR, etc., systems from scratch. Not everything has been > "commoditized" by open source. We are in the early stages of deploying: http://www.openerp.com/ And so far it is looking good. Lots of very nice functionality. But every ERP project needs to be customized/molded to your particular enterprise/workflow/business model etc. There will always be custom coding to be done. > A while back I asked about patch management software here, and there > wasn't too much really. In the process of poking around I did run > across SANS' "Twenty Critical Security Controls for Effective Cyber > Defense": I have been doing a lot of PCI security work the last few years and find the recommendations there to be very good as rules of thumb. > Number ten was "Continuous Vulnerability Assessment and Remediation": PCI Requirements 5, 6, 11 all touch on this. I highly recommend "PCI Complance, 2nd Edition" by Chuvakin and Williams for anyone interested in PCI by the way. > If you base your infrastructure on 'regular' operating systems, you > have one less area of vulnerability to worry about: when you follow > your Linux patches you can do it for everything. If you have > appliances, you now have to track more security updates. Unfortunately, too many people think that their appliance is an obscure box, not a Linux system, not as vulnerable, and that nobody is interested in targeting it. Of course they couldn't be more wrong. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --TqjUw3h+J5USMjbw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLrrSg9PIYKZYVAq0RApLpAKCR9vBjwQwSAMleR9pS/MCNkQ13MgCfToOg AHUriKrbg5WsD3F4iIo/hxg= =kOPY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TqjUw3h+J5USMjbw-- From dredd@megacity.org Sat Mar 27 20:13:19 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2S3DJFX011181 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 20:13:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2S3DG5n001395 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 20:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A611F70026; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:13:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WFuFlz-loWzb; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from akebono.megacity.org (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A16B61F70008; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:13:09 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: <20100328013312.GP3490@tracyreed.org> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:13:08 -0400 Message-Id: <7CE7B899-1855-43B4-A05B-F54F89E9AF83@megacity.org> References: <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <87r5n5fw9t.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> <20100328013312.GP3490@tracyreed.org> To: Tracy Reed X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2S3DJFX011181 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 03:13:19 -0000 On Mar 27, 2010, at 9:33 PM, Tracy Reed wrote: > Some of them let > you manually download a config file for backup purposes but that is > somewhat tedious and rarely gets done properly. Put your appliance config files into $SCM_OF_CHOICE. Write a script that logs into your appliances every 30 minutes, or however often, dumps the config file to a temp files, diffs against the $SCM_OF_CHOICE sandbox, and, if they're substantially different (e.g., "Generated at HH:MM" lines are ignored, etc.) rename and commit. I've been backing up our switch/router/firewall/memcached-appliance/load-balancers/concentrators this way for years without a hitch. Took about a day to bang out and debug the code. > Could we have some discussion appliance best practices? Since you > can't use cfengine/puppet/vcs/backup software (in most cases) how does > one accomplish these things with an appliance and how does one set up > a program or regime which ensures that these things get done? See above. :-) Cheers, D From doug@will.to Sat Mar 27 20:27:31 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2S3RUAw011495 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 20:27:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2S3RRWj001603 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 20:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.57] (h-68-164-136-126.nycmny83.static.covad.net [68.164.136.126]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id o2S3R9M9002818 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:27:09 -0400 Message-ID: <4BAECC8A.2070906@will.to> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:27:06 -0400 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Derek J. Balling" References: <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <87r5n5fw9t.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> <20100328013312.GP3490@tracyreed.org> <7CE7B899-1855-43B4-A05B-F54F89E9AF83@megacity.org> In-Reply-To: <7CE7B899-1855-43B4-A05B-F54F89E9AF83@megacity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:27:18 -0400 (EDT) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 03:27:31 -0000 Derek J. Balling wrote: > On Mar 27, 2010, at 9:33 PM, Tracy Reed wrote: > >> Some of them let >> you manually download a config file for backup purposes but that is >> somewhat tedious and rarely gets done properly. >> > > Put your appliance config files into $SCM_OF_CHOICE. Write a script that logs into your appliances every 30 minutes, or however often, dumps the config file to a temp files, diffs against the $SCM_OF_CHOICE sandbox, and, if they're substantially different (e.g., "Generated at HH:MM" lines are ignored, etc.) rename and commit. > > I've been backing up our switch/router/firewall/memcached-appliance/load-balancers/concentrators this way for years without a hitch. Took about a day to bang out and debug the code. > > If you're going to commit to , then the diff step is unnecessary. The commit operation should only record the changes if there are changes present. (PS - Rancid is a nice way to backup and archive your configs that doesn't require a day of hacking and handles a bunch of different devices) From dredd@megacity.org Sat Mar 27 20:37:14 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2S3bEus011692 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 20:37:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2S3bCBk001765 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 20:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A995D1F70033; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:37:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tzIWAF6sL7eT; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:37:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from akebono.megacity.org (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7B6CE1F70030; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:37:05 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: <4BAECC8A.2070906@will.to> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:37:03 -0400 Message-Id: <8A608C8B-BB04-452F-B971-75A777FBB525@megacity.org> References: <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <87r5n5fw9t.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> <20100328013312.GP3490@tracyreed.org> <7CE7B899-1855-43B4-A05B-F54F89E9AF83@megacity.org> <4BAECC8A.2070906@will.to> To: Doug Hughes X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2S3bEus011692 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 03:37:15 -0000 On Mar 27, 2010, at 11:27 PM, Doug Hughes wrote: > If you're going to commit to , then the diff step is unnecessary. The commit operation should only record the changes if there are changes present. No, it's not, because you don't want it committing every 30 minutes "like clockwork" when "show config" outputs, as part of its output, "Config dumped at YYYY-MM-DD/HH:MM:SS". You do the diff separately, so that you can see those lines in the diff and say, "Bah, show me REAL differences", ignoring those. D From doug@will.to Sat Mar 27 20:38:49 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2S3cnFS011717 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 20:38:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2S3ckpN001806 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 20:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.57] (h-68-164-136-126.nycmny83.static.covad.net [68.164.136.126]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id o2S3ch1F002977 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:38:43 -0400 Message-ID: <4BAECF42.2000605@will.to> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:38:42 -0400 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Derek J. Balling" References: <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <87r5n5fw9t.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> <20100328013312.GP3490@tracyreed.org> <7CE7B899-1855-43B4-A05B-F54F89E9AF83@megacity.org> <4BAECC8A.2070906@will.to> <8A608C8B-BB04-452F-B971-75A777FBB525@megacity.org> In-Reply-To: <8A608C8B-BB04-452F-B971-75A777FBB525@megacity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:38:43 -0400 (EDT) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 03:38:50 -0000 Derek J. Balling wrote: > On Mar 27, 2010, at 11:27 PM, Doug Hughes wrote: > >> If you're going to commit to , then the diff step is unnecessary. The commit operation should only record the changes if there are changes present. >> > > No, it's not, because you don't want it committing every 30 minutes "like clockwork" when "show config" outputs, as part of its output, "Config dumped at YYYY-MM-DD/HH:MM:SS". > > You do the diff separately, so that you can see those lines in the diff and say, "Bah, show me REAL differences", ignoring those. > > D > ah, part of your process. Rancid makes this very nice by unifying the config so you don't have to worry about that. (fwiw) From dredd@megacity.org Sat Mar 27 20:58:46 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2S3wkMv012114 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 20:58:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2S3wiH1002053 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 20:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3ECE1F70026; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:58:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JDWsCZS41Gbh; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from akebono.megacity.org (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 020551F70008; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: <4BAECF42.2000605@will.to> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:58:35 -0400 Message-Id: References: <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <87r5n5fw9t.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> <20100328013312.GP3490@tracyreed.org> <7CE7B899-1855-43B4-A05B-F54F89E9AF83@megacity.org> <4BAECC8A.2070906@will.to> <8A608C8B-BB04-452F-B971-75A777FBB525@megacity.org> <4BAECF42.2000605@will.to> To: Doug Hughes X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 03:58:47 -0000 On Mar 27, 2010, at 11:38 PM, Doug Hughes wrote: > ah, part of your process. Rancid makes this very nice by unifying the = config so you don't have to worry about that. (fwiw) Does Rancid have a means for adding devices it doesn't know about? We've = got a couple somewhat esoteric appliances (Gear6 memcached appliances = for example) that aren't widely popular yet (but they should be, = goddamnit, they make that service actually supportable), and so I don't = see an actual, detailed, "supported platforms" list in the rancid docs. Cheers, D= From doug@will.to Sat Mar 27 21:02:41 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2S42faW012232 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 21:02:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2S42bZt002115 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 21:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.57] (h-68-164-136-126.nycmny83.static.covad.net [68.164.136.126]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id o2S42Y8n003388 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 28 Mar 2010 00:02:34 -0400 Message-ID: <4BAED4D9.3090705@will.to> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 00:02:33 -0400 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Derek J. Balling" References: <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <87r5n5fw9t.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> <20100328013312.GP3490@tracyreed.org> <7CE7B899-1855-43B4-A05B-F54F89E9AF83@megacity.org> <4BAECC8A.2070906@will.to> <8A608C8B-BB04-452F-B971-75A777FBB525@megacity.org> <4BAECF42.2000605@will.to> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Sun, 28 Mar 2010 00:02:34 -0400 (EDT) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 04:02:41 -0000 Derek J. Balling wrote: > > On Mar 27, 2010, at 11:38 PM, Doug Hughes wrote: >> ah, part of your process. Rancid makes this very nice by unifying the >> config so you don't have to worry about that. (fwiw) > > Does Rancid have a means for adding devices it doesn't know about? > We've got a couple somewhat esoteric appliances (Gear6 memcached > appliances for example) that aren't widely popular yet (but they > should be, goddamnit, they make that service actually supportable), > and so I don't see an actual, detailed, "supported platforms" list in > the rancid docs. > It does, if you're comfortable with expect. For most sites that use it, it's really about the top router and switch manufacturers for archiving network configs. I've tweaked it a bit here and there, but never added an entirely different manufacturer. It could be worth the effort (or not), depending upon your investment. In your case, it seems like you already have something, but for others, it might be more convenient to have the out-of-the-box archiver. (particularly with a webdiff based thing to graphically compare and colorize the diffs) From mbarr@mbarr.net Sat Mar 27 22:01:53 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2S51qsr013691 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 22:01:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbarr@mbarr.net) Received: from scotch.datalyte.com (postfix@scotch.datalyte.com [69.31.85.242]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2S51nqx002804 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 22:01:52 -0700 (PDT) X-SMTP-Auth: no Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scotch.datalyte.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77B0013802 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 01:03:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scotch.datalyte.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (scotch.datalyte.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25798-10 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 01:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.0.105] (user-0cdftta.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.247.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by scotch.datalyte.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B7F6137F0 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 01:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) From: Matthew Barr In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 01:01:36 -0400 Message-Id: <9033D0FC-89CC-4AD7-A96A-581B7F77BA59@mbarr.net> References: <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <87r5n5fw9t.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> <20100328013312.GP3490@tracyreed.org> <7CE7B899-1855-43B4-A05B-F54F89E9AF83@megacity.org> <4BAECC8A.2070906@will.to> <8A608C8B-BB04-452F-B971-75A777FBB525@megacity.org> <4BAECF42.2000605@will.to> To: sage-members@usenix.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager; whitelist Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2S51qsr013691 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 05:01:53 -0000 On Mar 27, 2010, at 11:58 PM, Derek J. Balling wrote: > On Mar 27, 2010, at 11:38 PM, Doug Hughes wrote: >> ah, part of your process. Rancid makes this very nice by unifying the config so you don't have to worry about that. (fwiw) > > Does Rancid have a means for adding devices it doesn't know about? We've got a couple somewhat esoteric appliances (Gear6 memcached appliances for example) that aren't widely popular yet (but they should be, goddamnit, they make that service actually supportable), and so I don't see an actual, detailed, "supported platforms" list in the rancid docs. Hmm... We're just using memcache on standard boxes, w/o any issues. What benefit are you getting from them (Gear6)? They keep trying to tell us they have a benefit, but we've yet to hear anything truly interesting. I mean, I know we're doing things differently in our architectures, but still.. memcache should be pretty similar. BTW- for any one that's NYC-ish, we've started a new group called NYC-Webops. We're hoping to develop a community around the folks that are building & scaling large Web sites. A lot of that is SysAdmin related. It's just starting up, and this conversation is pretty much the intended topic set. Please join us! http://groups.google.com/group/nyc-webops Matthew From rskiadmin@chycoski.com Sun Mar 28 05:57:54 2010 Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2SCvsJB023901 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 05:57:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rskiadmin@chycoski.com) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiIGADjvrkurR7H+/2dsb2JhbACPQYtncaNnmBaFAQSDHg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,322,1267401600"; d="scan'208";a="173532929" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Mar 2010 12:57:48 +0000 Received: from [10.19.54.148] (sjc-rac-8713.cisco.com [10.19.54.148]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o2SCvlJX021333 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 12:57:48 GMT Message-ID: <4BAF5259.3050205@chycoski.com> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 05:58:01 -0700 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <2b31b18a1003270907x74a975a4md7a060f2c99a3989@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91003271001y70d73431r2f682a476c4826aa@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91003271001y70d73431r2f682a476c4826aa@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 12:57:55 -0000 On 3/27/10 10:01 AM, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Anthony DeStefano > wrote: > > The culture of the organization can also play a large part in the > >> decision. There are places that will only use solutions that are >> supported by a third-party vendor. Other places have a culture of >> building and tweaking things to be 100% in-line with their vision. >> >> I believe the middle ground is usually the right answer. >> > I agree. > > But this being the internet, let me ramble a bit... > > We surveyed our customers. Half wanted hot tea. The other half wanted > iced tea. So we're going to serve luke warm tea and... what? nobody > is happy? But... but... > > I think your first paragraph nailed it. No need for the last bit part > about middle ground. It *is* about the culture of the organization. > Most are very happy with the engineering done for them. A few do some > customization. There is a long tail that ends with companies that > build everything from scratch. The ones that build anything in-house > are actually quite rare; just very popular on mailing lists like this. > > I've often wondered if appliances would make system administration > irrelevant. What I'm finding, however, is that there is way too much > work to be done and appliances actually take away the boring stuff. > > Tom > > At $WORK, we're big enough to have: D. All of the above. And even though there is a directive to be a "Don't build what you can buy instead!" org, there are still pockets of "Oh, we can build that!". Sometimes the groups see themselves as differentiating their internal product from the externally available ones, even though we're big enough that we usually do have the influence to get purchased products enhanced to our needs (unlike one of the comments above that small shops don't often get this luxury). However, the amount of internal design-and-build *is* being reduced over time. Culture and budgets have much (everything?) to do with this. In some orgs, the budget is fixed, and how much you can spend on capital items, people, and expenses are fixed (even by law, in most publicly-owned entities) so while it might really be cheaper to 'buy', when you have no capital budget left, but have staff money, you build. Many universities are in this category, or even worse - no capital *or* people budget, but lots of students around who can be co-opted (sometimes as part of their coursework) to do the building... and even in private companies, the decisions of how to spend money are complex, and may be influenced by things like the tax code, where developing a product may be R&D-with-tax-breaks vs. capital expenditures which get no such breaks. Dollars aren't always freely available to travel between categories. - Richard From dredd@megacity.org Sun Mar 28 09:05:04 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2SG53vh028104 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 09:05:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2SG51tF018918 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 09:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC7881F70026; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 12:04:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FmXtk-ceVDeX; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 12:04:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from akebono.megacity.org (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 27C701F70008; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 12:04:54 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: <9033D0FC-89CC-4AD7-A96A-581B7F77BA59@mbarr.net> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 12:04:52 -0400 Message-Id: References: <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <87r5n5fw9t.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> <20100328013312.GP3490@tracyreed.org> <7CE7B899-1855-43B4-A05B-F54F89E9AF83@megacity.org> <4BAECC8A.2070906@will.to> <8A608C8B-BB04-452F-B971-75A777FBB525@megacity.org> <4BAECF42.2000605@will.to> <9033D0FC-89CC-4AD7-A96A-581B7F77BA59@mbarr.net> To: Matthew Barr X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2SG53vh028104 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:05:04 -0000 On Mar 28, 2010, at 1:01 AM, Matthew Barr wrote: > Hmm... We're just using memcache on standard boxes, w/o any issues. What benefit are you getting from them (Gear6)? They keep trying to tell us they have a benefit, but we've yet to hear anything truly interesting. I mean, I know we're doing things differently in our architectures, but still.. memcache should be pretty similar. Replication of data, fault tolerance, things like that. The Gear6 appliances use a nice HA architecture to allow us to reboot memcache appliances, have the clients 'not care' that one of their memcache servers is rebooting, and when it comes back up, it happily resyncs with the cluster so that there's no data loss. We used to have endless problems where, if we had to reboot a memcached server (For maintenance, upgrades, etc.) we'd have unacceptable performance issues until we "repopulated" the contents of memcache. Now we don't have those issues, because the unit doesn't start taking traffic until it's fully resync'ed to its partner(s). Cheers, D From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Sun Mar 28 10:19:30 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2SHJTq9029707 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:19:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toq8-srv.bellnexxia.net (bc.sympatico.ca [209.226.175.204]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2SHJQ9l020177 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toip3.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.86]) by tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100328171328.QZHM12176.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip3.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:13:28 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAN4or0tMRCbl/2dsb2JhbAAH2HqFAQQ Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279534821.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.68.38.229]) by toip3.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 28 Mar 2010 13:01:11 -0400 Message-Id: <415B0551-922C-4EC8-BF50-5F6D9DF24124@ee.ryerson.ca> From: David Magda To: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: <7CE7B899-1855-43B4-A05B-F54F89E9AF83@megacity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:13:27 -0400 References: <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <87r5n5fw9t.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> <20100328013312.GP3490@tracyreed.org> <7CE7B899-1855-43B4-A05B-F54F89E9AF83@megacity.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 17:19:30 -0000 On Mar 27, 2010, at 23:13, Derek J. Balling wrote: > Put your appliance config files into $SCM_OF_CHOICE. Write a script > that logs into your appliances every 30 minutes, or however often, > dumps the config file to a temp files, diffs against the > $SCM_OF_CHOICE sandbox, and, if they're substantially different > (e.g., "Generated at HH:MM" lines are ignored, etc.) rename and > commit. Like RANCID? http://www.shrubbery.net/rancid/ From royce.williams@gmail.com Sun Mar 28 12:58:42 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2SJwg5p033038 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 12:58:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from royce.williams@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com (mail-gy0-f169.google.com [209.85.160.169]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2SJwdNE023286 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 12:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gyg4 with SMTP id 4so3180356gyg.28 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 12:58:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:received:message-id:subject:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vSAjOjOu2YMME09QuaPHVOfZuXRCgo/Dypnktsle3MM=; b=Bw3SrBA20yMPdMetwF/ay7ZGqHO25d84g34UOFR0JIFxXYaC+ijl2JllFuzWSJu1pV EBNe0n3W7iFIiQBw30oVwqEj6j/py2uKJjeI1FgC39tGp79r94mWdDFsNrR0wqXJJ68l Uy47T46b4ihi79kDw5IXN6v/3GM6rreoRPZpE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=EnjDKFMesxMGPjuI6jBE2uKEREONhXM680Zdb1q4/qR7/q6lFbr6Q0sFCl68xeJhAl ZdamRiSk0qYRZTPTGszLU4aYLQU7ZBbvtGSu5rKzwu0Zs3WGkGs5OmA3+4IsTvdzixB+ fTWnFhvo/Aiw5p60FghNPcMFFo9DjZk/NRyNI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.107.13 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 12:52:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91003271202r3d8e6d95v16ff8d0d0972dbb9@mail.gmail.com> References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <2b31b18a1003270907x74a975a4md7a060f2c99a3989@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91003271001y70d73431r2f682a476c4826aa@mail.gmail.com> <87eij5fvtu.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> <7d49b3d91003271202r3d8e6d95v16ff8d0d0972dbb9@mail.gmail.com> From: Royce Williams Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 11:52:55 -0800 Received: by 10.151.20.9 with SMTP id x9mr3902823ybi.29.1269805995085; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 12:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9dd082311003281252n6a185d3erd54fb5b1e7626b32@mail.gmail.com> To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=5% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2SJwg5p033038 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:58:43 -0000 On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > When I mentioned the need for skills related to vendor management, I > was referring to the skills and knowledge required to ask the right > questions and manage the above issues properly.  It's probably as > difficult as building things in-house, but a different skill set. I see a lot of overlap in those skill sets. Admins who have the scars from "rolling their own" are better at asking vendors the right questions -- and better at evaluating the truth of the answers. You have to have the experience in order to transcend it. Admittedly, you can also get that experience by collecting multiple sets of vendor scars instead. But when you factor in the time and financial costs of discovery, conversion, support contracts, the disillusionment phase, disentangling and "unconverting" for each set of scars, the relative value of taking that route is not as clear. In my experience, a lot of the benefit of converting to $VENDOR is that it costs "real money" -- it's like paying to go to the gym. The contractual and financial commitments immediately trigger a tidal wave of management involvement in the data collection and consolidation necessary to convert. Instead, if $COMPANY had just had the institutional will to support the precursors as a standalone project, they could have gotten 80% of the benefits ... without the six-figure price tag. As I'm sure is not news to anyone, there is sometimes a trust problem between management and admins. Management does not trust the admins to be objective about vendors, for reasons of self-interest, and so the best vendor-BS-detecting people are often excluded from the vendor selection process. The admins do not trust management to address technical issues when the vendor selection process gives too much weight to non-technical selection criteria for political or short-term financial reasons. In turn, this causes management to repeatedly write checks on the "we bought it, now just make it work" account, which leaves the admins holding the bag, and further damages trust. All of the above fosters a cycle of deep mismatch between the stated and actual purposes of vendor selection -- with predictable consequences. Royce From g.lams@itcilo.org Mon Mar 29 00:27:00 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2T7R097047138 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 00:27:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from g.lams@itcilo.org) Received: from mailx1.itcilo.org ([82.112.222.231]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2T7Quk2007918 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 00:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailx1.itcilo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA70EF19EE for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:26:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mailx1.itcilo.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (barracuda.itcilo.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05004-03 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:26:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from email.itcilo.org (itc-domino.itc-ilo.org [172.20.13.25]) by mailx1.itcilo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65D47F19E8 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:26:49 +0200 (CEST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: In-Reply-To: References: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ga=EBl_Lams?= To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:27:31 +0200 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Lotus Domino Web Server Release 8.5.1 September 28, 2009 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by HTTP Server on ITC-DOMINO/ITCILO/IT(Release 8.5.1|September 28, 2009) at 29/03/2010 09.27.31, Serialize complete at 29/03/2010 09.27.31, Itemize by HTTP Server on ITC-DOMINO/ITCILO/IT(Release 8.5.1|September 28, 2009) at 29/03/2010 09.27.31, Serialize by Router on ITC-DOMINO/ITCILO/IT(Release 8.5.1|September 28, 2009) at 29/03/2010 09.27.31 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at itcilo.org X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2T7R097047138 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 07:27:01 -0000 >"Enterprise Homebrewers" are -- from my experience only, mind you -- >people who are more concerned about showing off how smart they are >and maintaining their sense of power and authority than they are >what's good for the long-term viability of the organization they work >for. If you cooked it yourself, they need to keep you around, because >you're the one who built the damned thing, who could they hire who >knows it better than you? And it feeds into one's ego -- and anyone >who thinks our trade isn't ego-driven is kidding themselves. We are having a similar discussion in my unit, great timing :-) I personally tend to be what you call a "homebrewer" and not particularly fan of appliance, not to secure my job (I really enjoy not being called when I'm on leave :-) but to have a really good control and knowledge of my infrastructure (it should be managed by me or my IT colleagues, not the other way around) so that, if there is a problem, it's clear to me where it could be and it's "easy" to debug it with "traditional" linux debugging tools and then find a solution. I don't like having the impression that the problem is with that blackbox/appliance but having no way of troubleshooting it as I would do on a linux box. We have had bad experiences with an appliance: we never had training on it, we don't really know it, it does a lot of things when we need only one our two of these functionalities, the company selling the appliance is not really helpful in solving/indentifying the problems (apart from advising to upgrade the appliance). As an example I've "built" two anti-spam servers based on postfix/amavis/spamassassin/clamav/greylisting .. 3/4 years ago and they work like a charm, they integrate nicely with our Lotus Domino backend (at that time, the barracuda appliance was not able to do what we wanted), it's documented so that a linux sysadmin with some experience can easily manage it and when one of my colleagues/clients tell me "I've the impression there a problem when sending/receiving to/from this organisation because last Monday ..." I can easily check it. It's true that I spend sometime in studying the best configuration and tweeking it but email is so important that I decided it was worth it. I would say that my colleagues and clients are happy with this choice. I've to say that we have only two small data centres (around 60 servers per data centre) therefore generic x86 boxes are enough for most, if not all, our needs. kind regards, Gaël From livenyc@gmail.com Mon Mar 29 09:03:05 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TG35Uh059011 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:03:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from livenyc@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f48.google.com (mail-vw0-f48.google.com [209.85.212.48]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2TG31Y9019737 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14so4258093vws.35 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:02:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:date :x-google-sender-auth:received:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=4Biw/6dCSIaZaZiyMzxTvsyGL/ZggB1RUnctIew4EEs=; b=dPQbJnJ9wkRsTIg5u0MNaxufx0f3G9GIrK5e4SVmOro9ir14+yBLlrKV017RV3wlQZ 2or4DSsBgddW+ev89jeLdtDUobLNIlZM2r2REhy+hNkjA0Dj1K7YTP40Sb5Ns4T3oai5 gFSJ00pP2K4LzbetCrEsWf7taIxRRclACuCrQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; b=Ol6y91dm8laGOw0X9SsjmnkecWFr0QNnNktG7nBlDdhK4Xvus67mTjxATAN2CBAbAd Shv1joXkGw9JwAfyp6SdskjRt92UMtSYNb6oLmjSlBXBZPShDu4sXl+D+UIHHyPqJgOJ 87/ddyGEQYHh5YbiJFotZ241JI5hDo6ei3HYg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: livenyc@gmail.com Received: by 10.220.159.205 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:02:41 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3871c60272c23d59 Received: by 10.220.108.27 with SMTP id d27mr2807426vcp.112.1269878562049; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <810cf27d1003290902n40c18e2fra37a47a70428409a@mail.gmail.com> From: Igor V To: sage-members X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] postgreSQL commercial support X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:03:05 -0000 hi all, anyone has experience with commercial PostgreSQL support, good or bad? i was thinking Command Prompt, EnterpriseDB or there may be others thanks -iv From livenyc@gmail.com Mon Mar 29 09:53:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TGriu8059991 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:53:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from livenyc@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f48.google.com (mail-vw0-f48.google.com [209.85.212.48]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2TGre3Y020762 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14so4290997vws.35 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:53:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:received:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=FX2yRYLsXLbRG9PgeJVwbkVxFktH6upM6vG4SO4qDms=; b=G81eXUJeXGD95R4riwOECzOP64zJGFdbDiWfa1Bxv05FAMYqvmdywOGOdmTeO1FOy8 YqN38952t0h7uBn6xzLgWVgS96GW0RKBsEY/ZtDA1+vDt7wK2UQXdebWkBGjNXdRpFMU WRjTz4VsQsHkb5xrjuHiTHL51jlzORqgkw5h0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=ZQmAYodNPVIjHIAjWTbNmVzbe1o6W7wfQz1CKbpyoSEGHUHAzUeEJpc53tB3zSCiUe p9dht9qNqnPUI+kBZyQxpokjSQ5RSzUAhioDtDtzh5FAvqGzlI1cnsG8su6XztULzDZS TaKWWWf5e97uvdcZIB1Q7qtWnGqiZqiSB65Kk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: livenyc@gmail.com Received: by 10.220.159.205 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:53:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2AA64338-7F9D-42B4-9A9B-71C47D8EBECF@buffalo.edu> References: <2AA64338-7F9D-42B4-9A9B-71C47D8EBECF@buffalo.edu> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:53:34 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 53a7b3157655cdb4 Received: by 10.220.107.227 with SMTP id c35mr1040964vcp.42.1269881615066; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <810cf27d1003290953r73b91564i7a914d68787e5358@mail.gmail.com> From: Igor V To: Paul Graham X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sendmail/Postfix etc. admin to Exchange admin training X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:53:44 -0000 I kind of did this - with O'Reilly books on Exchange and Active Directory and a virtual lab environment that replicated our network. Thankfully we hired a full time windows guy after half a year or so and i didn't have to continue to be the primary person responsible for windows side of things. I'd have to agree with Kurt - self study is good but when you are dealing with something so significantly different than what you are used to a certification may be helpful I have conflicting feelings about the experience. on one hand getting a better understanding of AD/Exchange made me a better admin for a heterogeneous environment, on another - a lot of this was very painful and frustrating. Make sure your *nix guy knows what he is getting into :) On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Paul Graham wrote: > I'm looking for resources to take someone reasonably familiar with > Sendmail/Qmail/Postfix to being a competent Exchange administrator. The > target audience has no experience running any Windows based services or > servers and may find Windows a foreign environment. > > Any tips? > > Thanks. > -- > paul > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From robert@timetraveller.org Mon Mar 29 09:55:05 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TGt4eH060055 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:55:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@timetraveller.org) Received: from capella.opentrend.net (capella.opentrend.net [64.22.125.103]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2TGt14D020798 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by capella.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 499D9137CE2; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:54:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on capella.opentrend.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 Received: from castor.opentrend.net (castor.opentrend.net [192.168.120.16]) by capella.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EE7A137CDC for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:54:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D4A9740360253; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:57:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D41E440360251 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:57:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:57:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Brockway X-X-Sender: robert@castor.opentrend.net To: SAGE Members List In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91003271001y70d73431r2f682a476c4826aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <2b31b18a1003270907x74a975a4md7a060f2c99a3989@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91003271001y70d73431r2f682a476c4826aa@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:55:05 -0000 On Sat, 27 Mar 2010, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > I've often wondered if appliances would make system administration > irrelevant. What I'm finding, however, is that there is way too much I've wondered about that too. It is similar to the argument that "automation will render system administration irrelevant". I ended up concluding that system administration is precisely those things the computer cannot do for itself - for example design a network, diagnose certain classes of problems, etc. Every time someone automates part of my job I end up with more work to do - but it is more interesting work. 15 years ago a sysadmin may have spent many hours installing an OS, making sure jumpers on cards didn't conflict and were all seem by the OS, etc. Now the OS installation is completed in half an hour (or fully automated) and we can move on to far more interesting work. Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert@timetraveller.org IRC: Solver Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world From matt@ryanczak.org Mon Mar 29 10:49:48 2010 Received: from zap.planetfoo.org (zap.planetfoo.org [70.164.19.160]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2THnlW7061548 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:49:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matt@ryanczak.org) Received: from [IPv6:2001:500:4:15::16] (unknown [IPv6:2001:500:4:15::16]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zap.planetfoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 413A64B05DA for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4BB0E85A.1060604@ryanczak.org> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:50:18 -0400 From: Matt Ryanczak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9pre) Gecko/20100217 Lightning/1.0b1 Shredder/3.0.3pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <2AA64338-7F9D-42B4-9A9B-71C47D8EBECF@buffalo.edu> In-Reply-To: <2AA64338-7F9D-42B4-9A9B-71C47D8EBECF@buffalo.edu> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sendmail/Postfix etc. admin to Exchange admin training X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:49:48 -0000 Hi Paul, Exchange is a very different animal than a typical Unix based solution but that does not mean it is completely foreign to a Unix sysadmin. For example, Active Directory is a big part of Exchange and you can interact with it using the LDAP protocol, in fact understanding LDAP will help tremendously when trying to understand active directory. Also, much like Unix mail environments Exchange (2007) has the concept of roles in that you have mailbox servers, relay servers, etc. Microsoft has their own idea of how this stuff interacts but the basic concepts are the same. Somethings like how to trace mail will take some getting used to because of the lack of log files Unix admins are used to. In short I believe that a Unix SA can pick up Exchange and learn to run it well without a bunch of classes but that person has to want to learn something new. The Microsoft way of doing things is very different from the Unix way. In my org we switched internal user mail to exchange a few years ago in order to bring group scheduling and other related features to our end users. We were a total Unix shop and there was a lot of fear about not being to support the Exchange environment. There was a learning curve but it was not as severe as we thought it would be. We were able to leverage our experience with LDAP and DNS to understand Active Directory and we learned the Exchange administration side of things from books, forum and mail lists. Aside from the different interface into the system (Windows) many of the concepts behind Exchange are not different than any Unix based mail system. Today we run exchange for end user mail, postfix for our relays, and maia for spam/virus control. All of this integrates very well together. I can recommend the following books to help learn the microsoft way of doing things: O'reilly: Active Directory: Designing, Deploying, and Running Active Directory Active Directory Cookbook Unknown publisher: Exchange 2007: The Complete Reference. I know this is not an Exchange review but my biggest problems (as a Unix guy) with Exchange have been: Outlook breaks in strange ways and can be hard to troubleshoot. IMAP/POP performance of the Exchange server is down right horrible. It is usable but compared to courier or dovecot it is just awful. Things I like: LDAP intergration is AD is cool; being able to integrate Unix / Web apps with AD is nice. Writing python scripts to do batch changes to user accounts is also nice. Exchange clustering works very well. Doing offsite replication is easy and seems to work very well. I was surprised by how well this works. ~Matt On 03/27/2010 10:46 AM, Paul Graham wrote: > I'm looking for resources to take someone reasonably familiar with Sendmail/Qmail/Postfix to being a competent Exchange administrator. The target audience has no experience running any Windows based services or servers and may find Windows a foreign environment. > > Any tips? > > Thanks. > -- > paul > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From nicholastang@gmail.com Mon Mar 29 11:33:47 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TIXlw4062366 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:33:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicholastang@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yx0-f180.google.com (mail-yx0-f180.google.com [209.85.210.180]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2TIXiqr023583 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yxe10 with SMTP id 10so4706395yxe.29 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:33:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:received:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=S6xlwIm496sHxWxinkgKxjP5SgP3uJwom1gqemtYrd4=; b=IdW1/9ola3OT9Kk4UOtr6cCnZDWVpWtshQWLhFf6F3SAlKMnQuSJ3H9pRCjzUg/h2g N5cppR/4nF/HVwvNFn6r7fdTPZcJuIL9abobFZuVL4PeCpsdvpGhXaDURUfK7JMGqwQe mFUkJ+9gOQTNJhyxvT/14TZxpwFngxAYaI7zg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=lfUOYyIq2YRKngQ62L0NKjTIRM51eVXTSgDgBtaPmK21rwdL2pCnbG1Wp/ZmhkCfkr QO53GeDbNXHuwqeO/Mnc4YxqzW4KPBjlYpf1RuTu7n4t3yiR9WEIODIXRrB9IyX5dWeA 3Rox784BRvEOnbqct7zCbubcriat4VrtjkRRs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.83.8 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:33:38 -0400 Received: by 10.150.115.18 with SMTP id n18mr318358ybc.336.1269887618498; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Nicholas Tang To: "Derek J. Balling" X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Gear6/ memcached (was: Load Balancing) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:33:48 -0000 Since the topic forked, figured I'd change the subject to match. ;) I guess my question is, how is this really much of an advantage? Why not just buy more memcached servers with the money you spent on Gear6, and then spread the reads and writes out more so that the loss of any single "node" doesn't have as much of an impact? Presumably there's a performance impact from having a Gear6 box die while you're waiting for it to be repopulated; if not, then you've over-provisioned by at least one node, which you can do just as easily with memcached directly. :) I think I'm still missing something, because it doesn't really sound like a significant benefit. Are you keeping data in there that needs to survive the failure of a node? Nicholas On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Derek J. Balling wrote: > > On Mar 28, 2010, at 1:01 AM, Matthew Barr wrote: > > Hmm... We're just using memcache on standard boxes, w/o any issues. What > benefit are you getting from them (Gear6)? They keep trying to tell us they > have a benefit, but we've yet to hear anything truly interesting. I mean, > I know we're doing things differently in our architectures, but still.. > memcache should be pretty similar. > > Replication of data, fault tolerance, things like that. The Gear6 > appliances use a nice HA architecture to allow us to reboot memcache > appliances, have the clients 'not care' that one of their memcache servers > is rebooting, and when it comes back up, it happily resyncs with the cluster > so that there's no data loss. > > We used to have endless problems where, if we had to reboot a memcached > server (For maintenance, upgrades, etc.) we'd have unacceptable performance > issues until we "repopulated" the contents of memcache. Now we don't have > those issues, because the unit doesn't start taking traffic until it's fully > resync'ed to its partner(s). > > Cheers, > D > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From jxh@jxh.com Mon Mar 29 11:34:51 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TIYpjc062419 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:34:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jxh@jxh.com) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (m1.imap-partners.net [64.13.152.131]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2TIYmeX023602 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from collapse.jxh.com (collapse.jxh.com [75.149.147.131]) by m1.imap-partners.net (MOS 4.1.8-GA) with ESMTP id BOP92837 (AUTH jxh@jxh.com); Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:34:46 -0700 X-Mirapoint-Received-SPF: 75.149.147.131 collapse.jxh.com 0 fail X-Mirapoint-Received-SPF: 75.149.147.131 collapse.jxh.com 0 fail Message-ID: <4BB0F2C0.7060102@jxh.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:34:40 -0500 From: Jim Hickstein User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Macintosh/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Brockway References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <2b31b18a1003270907x74a975a4md7a060f2c99a3989@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91003271001y70d73431r2f682a476c4826aa@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:34:52 -0000 Robert Brockway wrote: > On Sat, 27 Mar 2010, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > >> I've often wondered if appliances would make system administration >> irrelevant. What I'm finding, however, is that there is way too much > > I've wondered about that too. It is similar to the argument that > "automation will render system administration irrelevant". I ended up > concluding that system administration is precisely those things the > computer cannot do for itself - for example design a network, diagnose > certain classes of problems, etc. By Jove! Here we finally have a decent definition, after all these years! Bravo! I suppose that the higher levels also include automating things that the appliances/computers/developers don't or can't (already) automate by themselves. > Every time someone automates part of my job I end up with more work to > do - but it is more interesting work. LOL! True.... > 15 years ago a sysadmin may have spent many hours installing an OS, > making sure jumpers on cards didn't conflict and were all seem by the > OS, etc. Now the OS installation is completed in half an hour (or fully > automated) and we can move on to far more interesting work. > > Cheers, > > Rob > From robert@timetraveller.org Mon Mar 29 11:35:58 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TIZw9Y062440 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:35:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@timetraveller.org) Received: from procyon.opentrend.net (li144-209.members.linode.com [109.74.197.209]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2TIZtB3023629 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by procyon.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C19B2CE7D; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:35:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on procyon.opentrend.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 Received: from castor.opentrend.net (unknown [192.168.120.16]) by procyon.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49351CE78 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:35:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A10D440360253; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:38:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F25F40360251 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:38:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Brockway X-X-Sender: robert@castor.opentrend.net To: SAGE Members List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <194302591003231632t238ca645ya8516d09ea557165@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <2b31b18a1003270907x74a975a4md7a060f2c99a3989@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91003271001y70d73431r2f682a476c4826aa@mail.gmail.com> <87eij5fvtu.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> <7d49b3d91003271202r3d8e6d95v16ff8d0d0972dbb9@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:35:59 -0000 On Sat, 27 Mar 2010, David Magda wrote: > Jon Udell once wrote in "BYTE" (long ago) that Windows will get you from 0-60 > faster than Unix, but you need Unix to go from 60-100. I think this is true > of the GUI versus CLI mind sets in general. Sometimes it's nice to have > something "easy" for "simple" things (especially if you're a beginner, which > we all are at some point). The problem occurs when you can't move beyond it. Very true. The thing is, a good gui and a good cli are not mutually exclusive. One approach that works well is for the gui to simply generate cli commands (or a script) which is then passed over the regular CLI interface. This has several advantages: * Both interfaces (obviously) * Compatibility between gui & cli users administering the appliance at the same time (well, in general) * Users can look at the cli output from the gui tool to learn the cli better * Users can use the gui to generate cli output and then customise it if needed Clearly this works to the extent that the cli user can break (or even brick) the device. > There are also software vendors, unless you want to write your own ERP, HR, > etc., systems from scratch. Not everything has been "commoditized" by open > source. Not yet ;) I'm only half kidding. Not unsurprisingly OSS has the most trouble in niche areas, where the economies of scale don't work as well. I expect OSS to continue to expand it's scope but it will continue to have trouble getting in to niche areas. I define a niche area as one where relatively small numbers of people are interested in the s/w in question. > Either way, automating it (for both DIY and appliances) would be a good idea. Definitely. Rob -- Email: robert@timetraveller.org IRC: Solver Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Mon Mar 29 11:50:27 2010 Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TIoQMm062665 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:50:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o2TIoiLi011619; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:50:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:50:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <30943.207.61.230.154.1269888644.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <4BB0E85A.1060604@ryanczak.org> References: <2AA64338-7F9D-42B4-9A9B-71C47D8EBECF@buffalo.edu> <4BB0E85A.1060604@ryanczak.org> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:50:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "David Magda" To: "Matt Ryanczak" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sendmail/Postfix etc. admin to Exchange admin training X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:50:27 -0000 On Mon, March 29, 2010 13:50, Matt Ryanczak wrote: > Things I like: > LDAP intergration is AD is cool; being able to integrate Unix / Web apps > with AD is nice. Writing python scripts to do batch changes to user > accounts is also nice. > > Exchange clustering works very well. > > Doing offsite replication is easy and seems to work very well. I was > surprised by how well this works. Of these three, LDAP wouldn't be much different under Unix (though some have "opinions" on AD's LDAP capabilities: Howard, you there? :) Another 'plus' could possibly be integrated scheduling (at least for the Outlook / MAPI users). Beyond those 3-4 things, do you see any other advantages? From dredd@megacity.org Mon Mar 29 12:12:21 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TJCLdv063276 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:12:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2TJCI34024507 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F203F1F70026; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:12:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8etyzsIkmemV; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:12:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from akebono.megacity.org (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 797CC1F70008; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:12:11 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:12:09 -0400 Message-Id: <6782A7B6-BABC-4CA9-94A5-29FF8F75B66C@megacity.org> References: To: Nicholas Tang X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2TJCLdv063276 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Gear6/ memcached (was: Load Balancing) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 19:12:21 -0000 On Mar 29, 2010, at 2:33 PM, Nicholas Tang wrote: > I guess my question is, how is this really much of an advantage? Why not just buy more memcached servers with the money you spent on Gear6, and then spread the reads and writes out more so that the loss of any single "node" doesn't have as much of an impact? "as much" > "any". Losing a single G6 node causes us *no* impact. And when it comes back, its resync causes "almost no" impact (yes, it's there, we can measure it, but no human will ever notice the extra couple millisecond of performance impact). > Presumably there's a performance impact from having a Gear6 box die while you're waiting for it to be repopulated; if not, then you've over-provisioned by at least one node, which you can do just as easily with memcached directly. :) No, there's impact in the "one failed unit" state. Yes, we're overprovisioned but that's because we're redundant/fault-tolerant/etc. We believe we should be able to suffer the loss of any single piece of hardware, and our users shouldn't be able to tell that it's happened.[1][2] The rebuild performance impact is negligible, since most of the real "work" is being done on the node that's still "out of the VIP" from its reboot. > I think I'm still missing something, because it doesn't really sound like a significant benefit. Are you keeping data in there that needs to survive the failure of a node? Yes. Like many Web 2.0 shops these days, for us "memcache" is less of a "cache" and more of a "fast datastore". Cheers, D [1] A theory we put to the test when we hot-swapped -- three different times -- our iSCSI SAN network between different core-switch architectures. And aside from the one time that we didn't follow our own procedure like a bunch of idiots, not a single system had a conniption. And, if you know iSCSI's extreme sensitivity to network issues like STP reconvergences, etc., you know that's saying something. :-) [2] I can count on one finger the "single points of failure" pieces of hardware in our infrastructure. And I hate it with a passion, and am actively seeking a replacement for it. :-) From dredd@megacity.org Mon Mar 29 12:16:20 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TJGKjE063405 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:16:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2TJGHbB024626 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4121F70026; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:16:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZE1akyf4za-n; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:16:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from akebono.megacity.org (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1F53C1F70008; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:16:11 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: <6782A7B6-BABC-4CA9-94A5-29FF8F75B66C@megacity.org> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:16:09 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <6782A7B6-BABC-4CA9-94A5-29FF8F75B66C@megacity.org> To: Nicholas Tang , SAGE Members List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Gear6/ memcached (was: Load Balancing) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 19:16:20 -0000 On Mar 29, 2010, at 3:12 PM, Derek J. Balling wrote: > No, there's impact in the "one failed unit" state. That should say "there NO impact..." From robert@timetraveller.org Mon Mar 29 12:44:01 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TJi11H063916 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:44:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@timetraveller.org) Received: from capella.opentrend.net (capella.opentrend.net [64.22.125.103]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2TJhwcu025109 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by capella.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 48216137CE2; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:43:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on capella.opentrend.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 Received: from castor.opentrend.net (castor.opentrend.net [192.168.120.16]) by capella.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24327137CDC for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:43:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 93B1540360253; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 19:46:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90B9140360251 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:46:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:46:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Brockway X-X-Sender: robert@castor.opentrend.net To: SAGE Members List In-Reply-To: <20100328013312.GP3490@tracyreed.org> Message-ID: References: <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <87r5n5fw9t.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> <20100328013312.GP3490@tracyreed.org> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 19:44:02 -0000 On Sat, 27 Mar 2010, Tracy Reed wrote: > Yes, this is an issue. And then there is the issue of how do you do > configuration management for an appliance? I like to keep all of my I think you and Jens have made some great points (as have others). This leads in to my main concern about appliances... Inflexibility. * The ability to configure them is limited * The ability to script them is limited (often non-existent) * The ability to integrate them to the rest of the network is limited (config management, backups, etc) * Knowledge of their security profile is limited * Sometimes even the ability to secure them propery is limited These problems make their usefulness limited - IMHO of course. Maybe some future appliances will resolve a lot of these issues, and I hope they do. Rob -- Email: robert@timetraveller.org IRC: Solver Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world From jxh@jxh.com Mon Mar 29 12:45:59 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TJjxBA063961 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:45:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jxh@jxh.com) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (m1.imap-partners.net [64.13.152.131]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2TJju1P025154 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:45:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from collapse.jxh.com (collapse.jxh.com [75.149.147.131]) by m1.imap-partners.net (MOS 4.1.8-GA) with ESMTP id BOQ00226 (AUTH jxh@jxh.com); Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:45:53 -0700 X-Mirapoint-Received-SPF: 75.149.147.131 collapse.jxh.com 0 fail X-Mirapoint-Received-SPF: 75.149.147.131 collapse.jxh.com 0 fail Message-ID: <4BB1036C.9080200@jxh.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:45:48 -0500 From: Jim Hickstein User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Macintosh/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Derek J. Balling" References: <6782A7B6-BABC-4CA9-94A5-29FF8F75B66C@megacity.org> In-Reply-To: <6782A7B6-BABC-4CA9-94A5-29FF8F75B66C@megacity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Gear6/ memcached (was: Load Balancing) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 19:45:59 -0000 Derek J. Balling wrote: > [2] I can count on one finger the "single points of failure" pieces of hardware in our infrastructure. And I hate it with a passion, and am actively seeking a replacement for it. :-) Can you tell us in general terms what it is? From nicholastang@gmail.com Mon Mar 29 12:48:54 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TJmsd7064046 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:48:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicholastang@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com (mail-gy0-f169.google.com [209.85.160.169]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2TJmpX9025229 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gyg4 with SMTP id 4so3775699gyg.28 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:48:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=RcQG7rkewgstWJdwAnNY+oduS2NZAM569cd4QUV0ZiE=; b=n85c10+J6SdwoP3GY6+bE54zg51G3HYM0nWrgN0XgEOYrEloOFNg8zT0T2F7W72ZX9 Fi9/jmxg2ldtmPM3W8g/n2lrHhMDERSOFWMl+jYvUoaR0EHYgdMMp+192PbVjNfvzT8s qm60IMoiZ13LOJ7Pml6IBh6GfzLkSe1ltDCfQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=GB97jcr5iJGrj4CkKEyQZVOanoBHgkEHKHoLdO5Jh7CBnsg/okpiXj3dwwVNN7OlDN VTXeyWC3gWXqGsac+XVP/uRXNdILUtk+Scmo4fk9I283pSnFz9oMn63A4DSW+bmIR397 qf5eXLR6nUQumMRFCRiV7Zp2Iis9sgnAkHqys= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.83.8 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:48:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6782A7B6-BABC-4CA9-94A5-29FF8F75B66C@megacity.org> References: <6782A7B6-BABC-4CA9-94A5-29FF8F75B66C@megacity.org> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:48:45 -0400 Received: by 10.101.153.5 with SMTP id f5mr906209ano.234.1269892125621; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Nicholas Tang To: "Derek J. Balling" X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Gear6/ memcached (was: Load Balancing) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 19:48:54 -0000 On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Derek J. Balling wrote: > "as much" > "any". Losing a single G6 node causes us *no* impact. And when > it comes back, its resync causes "almost no" impact (yes, it's there, we can > measure it, but no human will ever notice the extra couple millisecond of > performance impact). > Fair enough, but you could get the same thing from writing to 2 different memcached nodes simultaneously for each new value. (Some clients support this, I believe, and it's not incredibly difficult to just do it on the app level as well.) Or you could use one of the designed-to-be-persistent distributed key/value stores out there: http://www.metabrew.com/article/anti-rdbms-a-list-of-distributed-key-value-stores/ (old article, and there are probably better resources, but you get the idea... here's a better link: http://nosql-database.org/ ) > No, there's impact in the "one failed unit" state. Yes, we're > overprovisioned but that's because we're redundant/fault-tolerant/etc. We > believe we should be able to suffer the loss of any single piece of > hardware, and our users shouldn't be able to tell that it's happened.[1][2] > I agree completely! We use memcached and can restart/ reboot/ etc. a single node with no noticeable impact to the end-user. Likewise w/ our varnish caches. We just overprovision enough that one or two nodes going down don't have any noticeable impact. We're also testing mogilefs for the same reason. In all cases, we're looking at going for the N+1 (or ideally, N+2) model (where going to N means no end-user impact, not no downtime). > > Yes. Like many Web 2.0 shops these days, for us "memcache" is less of a > "cache" and more of a "fast datastore". > > That last bit I disagree with on philosophical grounds. Memcached is the wrong tool for the job (although Gear6, I suppose, is no longer really memcached). Most web 2.0 shops that I have some visibility into have moved on to using other tools instead of memcached when they want a fast, persistent, replicated datastore. :) I'm going to a MongoDB presentation tomorrow, and my coworkers recently went to a HBase/Hadoop presentation a month before that, and there seems to be an explosion of "nosql" tools out there nowadays... anyways, not trying to give you (or Gear6!) a hard time, it just seems to be solving the wrong problem. Heck, if you want the persistent-memcache problem solved, I thought that's what Tokyo Tyrant/ Cabinet does. I'm just not sure what I'd be paying for, in the end, except maybe support. Nicholas From smilburn@gmail.com Mon Mar 29 12:57:29 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TJvTvq064298 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smilburn@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iw0-f172.google.com (mail-iw0-f172.google.com [209.85.223.172]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2TJvPJJ025407 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iwn2 with SMTP id 2so478005iwn.22 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:57:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:received:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=25tyS8y8YKEYrSMCE/ox/xo+evMPBHE6W+4KHM2cEd4=; b=e36yLCh/hLRtc3bO+kntSPY1UhQd3NrBdmJJLjfdqboU5yKjEGDFAh/vBn3JoZvFTW QSMWQOflObGw7M0D8l1klY2HlXUCkRYm1F+Z5HkZcB8IGsMolRFWU9i6X5QXEPXeO1jR BR1Q9m8mh8fknQGM+iihuiTx4kfZD1TJgVcUw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=mnPokVRvmX0PWD5lCaq6hQ8OJxkL5PyBJRBRm0s/gbiYXM+iQ8fwElS/xXl08g5pwn LrffE6EFavV9oSwnsCDAFlX4NObCoCsruD0jwNytT/efCke5v/Ce1pWWS34MKyMs+rqp 7Pz5l4nhDyk3F9s8MqKmGHpS/OEfKr3+Bte7s= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: smilburn@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.101.11 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:57:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <810cf27d1003290902n40c18e2fra37a47a70428409a@mail.gmail.com> References: <810cf27d1003290902n40c18e2fra37a47a70428409a@mail.gmail.com> From: Shane Milburn Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:57:00 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: e204105992194a98 Received: by 10.143.194.3 with SMTP id w3mr2333566wfp.308.1269892640164; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: To: Igor V X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] postgreSQL commercial support X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 19:57:29 -0000 I had pretty good support from EnterpriseDB at my previous job. They were very responsive and pretty knowledgeable when we asked questions. -shane On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 9:02 AM, Igor V wrote: > hi all, > anyone has experience with commercial PostgreSQL support, good or bad? i > was > thinking Command Prompt, EnterpriseDB or there may be others > thanks > -iv > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > -- Shane Milburn Cell: 503-413-9281 Email: smilburn@gmail.com From dredd@megacity.org Mon Mar 29 13:00:16 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TK0FAc064397 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:00:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2TK0Djf025477 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6A861F70027 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:00:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SgHKszFvXwkW for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:00:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from akebono.megacity.org (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A3FFA1F70026 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:00:06 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: <4BB1036C.9080200@jxh.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:00:05 -0400 Message-Id: <6805EA4A-375B-4022-810B-96665BCFEF08@megacity.org> References: <6782A7B6-BABC-4CA9-94A5-29FF8F75B66C@megacity.org> <4BB1036C.9080200@jxh.com> To: SAGE Members List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2TK0FAc064397 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Gear6/ memcached (was: Load Balancing) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:00:16 -0000 On Mar 29, 2010, at 3:45 PM, Jim Hickstein wrote: > Derek J. Balling wrote: >> [2] I can count on one finger the "single points of failure" pieces of hardware in our infrastructure. And I hate it with a passion, and am actively seeking a replacement for it. :-) > > Can you tell us in general terms what it is? An NFS server that is the bane of my existence. When we first started rolling out the data-centers we didn't have time to do a really nice clustered-NFS solution that was actually fault-tolerant, etc, etc. And like all such things that "when you don't do them at the beginning" it has become so entrenched and depended-upon that touching it is going to require a whole lot of approvals and such. Cheers, D From dredd@megacity.org Mon Mar 29 13:08:12 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TK8B5c064720 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:08:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dredd@megacity.org) Received: from naboo.megacity.org (naboo.megacity.org [64.142.22.247]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2TK89a1025638 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C849F1F70008; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:08:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at naboo.megacity.org Received: from naboo.megacity.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (naboo.megacity.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TflOfGYuiKd1; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:08:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from akebono.megacity.org (cpe-74-64-94-169.hvc.res.rr.com [74.64.94.169]) by naboo.megacity.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48CEE1F70026; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:08:02 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Derek J. Balling" In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:08:00 -0400 Message-Id: <4C996118-8495-45B5-896B-1B7CEECB00E6@megacity.org> References: <6782A7B6-BABC-4CA9-94A5-29FF8F75B66C@megacity.org> To: Nicholas Tang X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2TK8B5c064720 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Gear6/ memcached (was: Load Balancing) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:08:12 -0000 On Mar 29, 2010, at 3:48 PM, Nicholas Tang wrote: > Fair enough, but you could get the same thing from writing to 2 different memcached nodes simultaneously for each new value. (Some clients support this, I believe, and it's not incredibly difficult to just do it on the app level as well.) Not at all. Then, when you read, you have to handle the "oh, this key wasn't in one side, now go try the other side", or "oh, side A was rebuilt more recently than side B was, so the data is inconsistent in some fashion", or "I have to wait for the timeout on side A to occur before I ask side B". In the G6 model, the "working IP" passes seamlessly back and forth between the units that are working and the data is kept consistent if the unit comes back up. > Or you could use one of the designed-to-be-persistent distributed key/value stores out there: Yeah, but, in the opinion of our engineers, they want memcache's API. It's what everyone seems to know and love. > I agree completely! We use memcached and can restart/ reboot/ etc. a single node with no noticeable impact to the end-user. Likewise w/ our varnish caches. We just overprovision enough that one or two nodes going down don't have any noticeable impact. And how do you bring those "un-failed" nodes back into production? You spend time and energy on some sort of repopulation of the data in them? > That last bit I disagree with on philosophical grounds. Memcached is the wrong tool for the job (although Gear6, I suppose, is no longer really memcached). Memcached is, to my understanding, many things to many people. To some it is a piece of software, a very specific piece of software. To others, it is an API into one's data. Under the hood, G6 really is just memcached with a whole lot of "Secret Sauce" applied, near as I can tell. I'm not a developer, I don't care how the developers store their data, to be honest. If that's the tool they want to use > Most web 2.0 shops that I have some visibility into have moved on to using other tools instead of memcached when they want a fast, persistent, replicated datastore. There are some really large sites, that you probably use every single day, who would disagree with that sentiment. :-) Cheers, D From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Mon Mar 29 13:27:16 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TKRGhn064989 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:27:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2TKRDwX026204 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o2TKRISA025411; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33868.207.61.230.154.1269894438.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <4C996118-8495-45B5-896B-1B7CEECB00E6@megacity.org> References: <6782A7B6-BABC-4CA9-94A5-29FF8F75B66C@megacity.org> <4C996118-8495-45B5-896B-1B7CEECB00E6@megacity.org> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:27:18 -0400 (EDT) From: "David Magda" To: "Derek J. Balling" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Gear6/ memcached (was: Load Balancing) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:27:17 -0000 On Mon, March 29, 2010 16:08, Derek J. Balling wrote: > > On Mar 29, 2010, at 3:48 PM, Nicholas Tang wrote: > >> Or you could use one of the designed-to-be-persistent distributed >> key/value stores out there: > > Yeah, but, in the opinion of our engineers, they want memcache's API. It's > what everyone seems to know and love. Like MemcacheDB? http://memcachedb.org/ The back-end is BerkeleyDB, and that's also what handles replication. From nicholastang@gmail.com Mon Mar 29 13:29:01 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TKT11H065059 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:29:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicholastang@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gx0-f220.google.com (mail-gx0-f220.google.com [209.85.217.220]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2TKSwBD026254 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gxk20 with SMTP id 20so1195160gxk.18 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:28:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=qMBKx38UXp1bctinT8bWaVA1i9Nm1q13Fci0dkqp3HE=; b=MqWmZ63mVduh2jaZv98NpyetoNAoC/ycUQzXLRT10n6oiRliOzooDUw7Pnu/4Pemg2 48V3fKDA9ZITtHxCqSVqyLPYBdTPgYITg0z1RS4YdQvdT/tU1R3WXS+a6J7IkVAPs9Fw MeYop446sbs9HfDBFmrYzoKs4OOJwVr2JaOME= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=dLrp2wVrW1UsrWgtfxFlRpN2txYIiUyYjTZHIilL8KTlGFK+lskO9wOUQF8okN1uLg WScW4IhX8w64d9YHP+khfLb3Z+IYTcGnL87Djz7Dal+257ev34oBhh/mdWIbf9Bg3b5q wqf2Ojd0HwE8hHgNALtud6kEV/vT4BcSSazEg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.83.8 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:28:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4C996118-8495-45B5-896B-1B7CEECB00E6@megacity.org> References: <6782A7B6-BABC-4CA9-94A5-29FF8F75B66C@megacity.org> <4C996118-8495-45B5-896B-1B7CEECB00E6@megacity.org> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:28:52 -0400 Received: by 10.150.184.21 with SMTP id h21mr4828680ybf.260.1269894532203; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Nicholas Tang To: "Derek J. Balling" X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Gear6/ memcached (was: Load Balancing) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:29:01 -0000 On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Derek J. Balling wrote: > Not at all. Then, when you read, you have to handle the "oh, this key > wasn't in one side, now go try the other side", or "oh, side A was rebuilt > more recently than side B was, so the data is inconsistent in some fashion", > or "I have to wait for the timeout on side A to occur before I ask side B". > > Well, again, differences in opinion of how memcached should be used. If it's just a cache, then data inconsistency is generally not a problem, and if you're writing to both keys and attempting to read from both keys each time, it should be fairly seamless (alternately, you just write to both keys and first try the "primary" for reading and the "secondary" only if the primary doesn't respond. The only case I can see when it wouldn't is when a cache comes back online, in which case it will be missing the data, rather than having a different version of it. So in that case, again, it's just a cache miss, rather than inconsistency*. > > > Or you could use one of the designed-to-be-persistent distributed > key/value stores out there: > Yeah, but, in the opinion of our engineers, they want memcache's API. It's > what everyone seems to know and love. > > That's why several of the tools listed on the site use the memcache API, including memcachedb, tokyo tyrant, etc. (I don't know the full list, but there are several.) And how do you bring those "un-failed" nodes back into production? You spend > time and energy on some sort of repopulation of the data in them? > > The same amount of effort we put into populating entries in the first place. It goes back online, it's repopulated on-demand, and no one really notices the difference*. (I can say this much: we've done maintenance on our memcached nodes, and no one has ever noticed when we add/ remove a node, to the best of my knowledge.) > Memcached is, to my understanding, many things to many people. To some it > is a piece of software, a very specific piece of software. To others, it is > an API into one's data. Under the hood, G6 really is just memcached with a > whole lot of "Secret Sauce" applied, near as I can tell. > > Agreed, but I'm referring to memcached, the software, not the memcached api/protocol. That may have been the source of some of the disagreement in the beginning. :) Nicholas * See here re: consistent hashing: http://www.tomkleinpeter.com/2008/03/17/programmers-toolbox-part-3-consistent-hashing/ Also, again, we have enough excess capacity that it doesn't get to be an issue. From allbery@ece.cmu.edu Mon Mar 29 14:53:10 2010 Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu (BACHE.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.129.23]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TLrAkQ067084 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:53:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) Received: from mress.kf8nh.com (static-72-77-17-40.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net [72.77.17.40]) (Authenticated sender: allbery@ECE.CMU.EDU) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03AD8DE; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:53:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <7774044D-8377-4836-9CE9-AF0568671CDC@ece.cmu.edu> From: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" To: "David Magda" In-Reply-To: <30943.207.61.230.154.1269888644.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-96--465416445" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:52:39 -0400 References: <2AA64338-7F9D-42B4-9A9B-71C47D8EBECF@buffalo.edu> <4BB0E85A.1060604@ryanczak.org> <30943.207.61.230.154.1269888644.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.0 (v56) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sendmail/Postfix etc. admin to Exchange admin training X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:53:11 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-96--465416445 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 29, 2010, at 14:50 , David Magda wrote: > Of these three, LDAP wouldn't be much different under Unix (though > some > have "opinions" on AD's LDAP capabilities: Howard, you there? :) > > Another 'plus' could possibly be integrated scheduling (at least for > the > Outlook / MAPI users). > > Beyond those 3-4 things, do you see any other advantages? AD remains the easiest way to deploy a Kerberos infrastructure. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH --Apple-Mail-96--465416445 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkuxIT0ACgkQIn7hlCsL25UdigCfeGz5MSPA6jAvi/tzbgCV7/Z0 GxYAmgMdN+OxVZ+/FxHIDqZLGKZiUgUW =gdG/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-96--465416445-- From hyc@symas.com Mon Mar 29 15:26:36 2010 Received: from lirone.symas.net (lirone.symas.net [64.71.152.235]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TMQa5c067874 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:26:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hyc@symas.com) Received: from cpe-76-94-188-212.socal.res.rr.com ([76.94.188.212] helo=[192.168.1.25]) by lirone.symas.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NwNNA-00063f-0T; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:23:52 -0700 Message-ID: <4BB12913.2060001@symas.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:26:27 -0700 From: Howard Chu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; rv:1.9.3a2pre) Gecko/20100212 Firefox 3.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Magda References: <2AA64338-7F9D-42B4-9A9B-71C47D8EBECF@buffalo.edu> <4BB0E85A.1060604@ryanczak.org> <30943.207.61.230.154.1269888644.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <30943.207.61.230.154.1269888644.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sendmail/Postfix etc. admin to Exchange admin training X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 22:26:37 -0000 David Magda wrote: > On Mon, March 29, 2010 13:50, Matt Ryanczak wrote: > >> Things I like: >> LDAP intergration is AD is cool; being able to integrate Unix / Web apps >> with AD is nice. Writing python scripts to do batch changes to user >> accounts is also nice. >> >> Exchange clustering works very well. >> >> Doing offsite replication is easy and seems to work very well. I was >> surprised by how well this works. > > Of these three, LDAP wouldn't be much different under Unix (though some > have "opinions" on AD's LDAP capabilities: Howard, you there? :) Hm, do I need to trot out my "AD is too retarded to live" rant again? ;) I thought that's why we have archives... http://mailman.sage.org/pipermail/sage-members/2009/msg00728.html -- -- Howard Chu CTO, Symas Corp. http://www.symas.com Director, Highland Sun http://highlandsun.com/hyc/ Chief Architect, OpenLDAP http://www.openldap.org/project/ From hyc@symas.com Mon Mar 29 16:19:13 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2TNJDtG068860 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:19:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hyc@symas.com) Received: from lirone.symas.net (lirone.symas.net [64.71.152.235]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2TNJAoG029072 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cpe-76-94-188-212.socal.res.rr.com ([76.94.188.212] helo=[192.168.1.25]) by lirone.symas.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NwNZt-00065z-3O; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:37:01 -0700 Message-ID: <4BB12C28.3030002@symas.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:39:36 -0700 From: Howard Chu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; rv:1.9.3a2pre) Gecko/20100212 Firefox 3.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Brockway References: <82a71f8a1003242254u2a0843afj13c5c045e58090fb@mail.gmail.com> <20100325072452.GT3490@tracyreed.org> <82a71f8a1003251633i7161e3a2v28796ad92dd094d7@mail.gmail.com> <36EE89EE-D6AC-4054-A92C-709699C64356@megacity.org> <20100327061504.GJ3490@tracyreed.org> <7d49b3d91003270451r725393d5k62aaae8d131aa23@mail.gmail.com> <87r5n5fw9t.fsf@bowmore.quux.de> <20100328013312.GP3490@tracyreed.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load Balancing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 23:19:14 -0000 Robert Brockway wrote: > On Sat, 27 Mar 2010, Tracy Reed wrote: > >> Yes, this is an issue. And then there is the issue of how do you do >> configuration management for an appliance? I like to keep all of my > > I think you and Jens have made some great points (as have others). > This leads in to my main concern about appliances... > > Inflexibility. > > * The ability to configure them is limited > > * The ability to script them is limited (often non-existent) > > * The ability to integrate them to the rest of the network is limited > (config management, backups, etc) That's to be expected. It should be a matter of course that whatever config management approach you have at your site needs to be customized for whatever new piece of gear you bring in. These guys (Ponte) don't exist any more http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-94046245.html but I can tell you quite a bit about them, since my company (Symas) owned them for a while, before we sold them off again. Store all your CM info in the directory, so it's ubiquitously and uniformly accessible. (That makes both the backup and day-to-day admin a lot easier.) Plug agents into your directory that know how to talk to your end systems (appliances of whatever kind). Writing agents is pretty trivial. In this particular case, when an LDAPmodify/add came in, the agent (a module that resided in the directory) automatically pushed changes out to whatever systems. (We had agents for Cisco routers, cable modem head-end gear, etc., and also a plain old scripting agent that could run over telnet/ssh to talk to anything.) Of course it's a read-write interface, do a single LDAP search over a branch of your DIT and get realtime health info on all of your managed systems... > * Knowledge of their security profile is limited > > * Sometimes even the ability to secure them propery is limited > > These problems make their usefulness limited - IMHO of course. > > Maybe some future appliances will resolve a lot of these issues, and I > hope they do. No, not likely. Unless the appliance vendor's business is about more than making appliances, they simply aren't thinking about it. And if their business is to sell you larger scale management solutions, it's still (most likely) not going to be a drop-in replacement for your existing solutions... -- -- Howard Chu CTO, Symas Corp. http://www.symas.com Director, Highland Sun http://highlandsun.com/hyc/ Chief Architect, OpenLDAP http://www.openldap.org/project/ From matt@ryanczak.org Mon Mar 29 17:29:32 2010 Received: from zap.planetfoo.org (zap.planetfoo.org [70.164.19.160]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2U0TVUF070415 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:29:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matt@ryanczak.org) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:e1ce:1:223:6cff:fe93:caf3] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:e1ce:1:223:6cff:fe93:caf3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zap.planetfoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F28D94B0325; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:29:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4BB145E3.1050404@ryanczak.org> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:29:23 -0400 From: Matt Ryanczak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100322 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Howard Chu References: <2AA64338-7F9D-42B4-9A9B-71C47D8EBECF@buffalo.edu> <4BB0E85A.1060604@ryanczak.org> <30943.207.61.230.154.1269888644.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4BB12913.2060001@symas.com> In-Reply-To: <4BB12913.2060001@symas.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sendmail/Postfix etc. admin to Exchange admin training X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 00:29:32 -0000 On 03/29/2010 06:26 PM, Howard Chu wrote: > David Magda wrote: >> Of these three, LDAP wouldn't be much different under Unix (though some >> have "opinions" on AD's LDAP capabilities: Howard, you there? :) > > Hm, do I need to trot out my "AD is too retarded to live" rant again? ;) > I thought that's why we have archives... I was not saying that AD is a great LDAP implementation. The point I was trying to make is that since it does support LDAP it is fairly straight forward to interface with using LDAP tools or interfaces. It certainly has its quirks, but being able to use tools I'm familiar with, like those that come with most Linux distros, to interact with AD is nice. From atsaloli.tech@gmail.com Tue Mar 30 21:25:14 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2V4PEEQ010444 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 21:25:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from atsaloli.tech@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com (mail-vw0-f41.google.com [209.85.212.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2V4PBvI017080 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 21:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vws4 with SMTP id 4so1355576vws.28 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 21:25:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=npPjpmkdgVvVYEwL74LgRj6ffG1ZBqjs3UdR700tkhk=; b=v4DzbTrjxhIKtGjY+MPCt6APMmNAtxpWK/mVaTaj/4Z3cD35McZQQokTRWfXvq3/Dr lAyJeYUtrQvRYCqIBrus6DG5yW58GGjQ3zEPGv6eCsLhnita0CxmiRPOJPytxkx+3QAD dhO8LVkB/k4BmNXtrmN7gtwb6yx4fPqtxMRzo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=U3t3JaXxsU9fIvlkQNzqJ6r23euOVPg+De4Dp2afqgxJ8BPMx3G8pZfCzeIDNPhPfX 3zL9A52si+/OnHBL0RHGiHTNeEwc53GfX4dmZ/EtfgFjleuYCOmYsRlnOLljsgRGc97+ 3Ik+z2qLaaHIWGwtkWd48YbSqZtsOVIpiBQwE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.45.17 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 21:25:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 21:25:06 -0700 Received: by 10.220.121.136 with SMTP id h8mr4432866vcr.73.1270009506200; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 21:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Aleksey Tsalolikhin To: sage-members@usenix.org, LOPSA Discuss List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=1% Subject: Re: [SAGE] I am checking for interest in a "Learning Cfengine 3" book X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 04:25:15 -0000 On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Aleksey Tsalolikhin wrote: > Hi. > > Could you please write me directly (I'll summarize) if you'd be interested in > purchasing a "Learning Cfengine 3" book -- an introduction to automating > system administration with Cfengine 3, with lots of working examples. Hi. Here is the summary of the market survey. We asked on lists of SAGE, LOPSA, studiosysadmins, Unix Users Association of Southern California, ArsTechnica and the Toronto Linux user's group. 18 people expressed interest. Best, Aleksey From jason.dusek@gmail.com Wed Mar 31 10:19:11 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2VHJBIq028662 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:19:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jason.dusek@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw0-f173.google.com (mail-yw0-f173.google.com [209.85.211.173]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2VHJ7Gc014359 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ywh3 with SMTP id 3so168384ywh.31 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:19:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:received:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=oCnbEnT135+oQh8g7korBcsk5kU9oc9BPCCZsrjfa8Y=; b=EVNnnbFulvlP63mMLi4xvypqE0L7c6n3IldAEZqA4BetX+dQ6QsVIrmB8xmx6jMQ2h mbmuuN5vLSIMyFMm0pmEyHnBIHiUvOG160z5UXlJRBwctrf/kFMbb1zLF6sYsleRKZUm D/wtPLfVWKWrN7GWn87+bDJidSM5pHgF0oyME= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=flNqFDHfDiurgIbgvuCxio2Hsly/JXwffPNQmBgfqZZ+DVVsGnnbSdB3U/Tlg3xj1A O/ac5RV5ZZBdkWJLu6TQioBQdngotvPLsR1+brh147nO0r1XrsAzcpkmW8YrtxlH9vR3 /vzQyJC9EA87ybKIYCwTUVEnhpEakB/uSkgkg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.154.8 with HTTP; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:11:22 -0700 Received: by 10.100.246.13 with SMTP id t13mr1791151anh.208.1270055482635; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Jason Dusek To: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=9% Subject: [SAGE] Server time & local time. X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:19:11 -0000 Not sure how I picked it up; but I've always operated on the assumption that server time should be UTC. Is this a common practice? -- Jason Dusek From djmitche@gmail.com Wed Mar 31 10:30:54 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2VHUrGD028912 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:30:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djmitche@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f48.google.com (mail-pw0-f48.google.com [209.85.160.48]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2VHUp0k014773 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pwi7 with SMTP id 7so354974pwi.35 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:30:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:received:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9lrj20W9G3GYkJTYDbF0N7NtWzpYIOWj+QJ1QK12b80=; b=h2AHNqE7PZ1P1gjqcybsgdmQ1KrOC0VGQ4oBapvjiMPW27Af0eEuq8KiKRqQBOMNO2 E+RbGfya5yk8mpri4lc+mHxfKW2hItyTz60va17/m0ZeZey0MjNWC3fZK5C7XU72DQ9Q NBjIS1cj4LGsAcTCWon/rOi0E1xFKrlREs2pE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=n8Y4thfoOefWFfIxHhvXEV+kaAjIKLQ52oexsAJutuSUgeqWI8F+//u9VrzQzOL/YE EWdHs6cpyoLb+a6WqGdk2atoGavRWlqKyk8mfa37BXQeFbLAHBXtdBgTlYNCfb6Z9DfY psZGT9KK0J7BFZ+ifpLT4xGByGL0gNuDnXIxs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: djmitche@gmail.com Received: by 10.231.166.202 with HTTP; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:23:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:23:26 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 9290225747424720 Received: by 10.114.6.1 with SMTP id 1mr108516waf.104.1270056206987; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: "Dustin J. Mitchell" To: Jason Dusek Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o2VHUrGD028912 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Server time & local time. X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:30:54 -0000 On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 12:11 PM, Jason Dusek wrote: >  Not sure how I picked it up; but I've always operated on >  the assumption that server time should be UTC. Is this a >  common practice? It depends on the organization. Smaller organizations that exist mainly in one timezone often use that timezone. Organizations with servers all over will probably standardize on UTC. It also depends on users' expectations, and the ability of user-facing software to do timezone translation (some web apps can, some can't, for example). Dustin -- Open Source Storage Engineer http://www.zmanda.com From doug@will.to Wed Mar 31 10:37:34 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2VHbXMQ029058 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:37:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2VHbURO014946 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.54] (h-68-164-136-126.nycmny83.static.covad.net [68.164.136.126]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id o2VHbSdi024014 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:37:28 -0400 Message-ID: <4BB3885C.9080808@will.to> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:37:32 -0400 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Dusek References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:37:28 -0400 (EDT) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Server time & local time. X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:37:34 -0000 Jason Dusek wrote: > Not sure how I picked it up; but I've always operated on > the assumption that server time should be UTC. Is this a > common practice? > > very common in companies with more than one location, especially in the context of cron jobs that run hourly. Somewhat less common in small companies with just one location, but still present. From sage-list-psa@otoh.org Wed Mar 31 10:51:53 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2VHprVi029463 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:51:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sage-list-psa@otoh.org) Received: from pmon001.zetta.net (ssg-corp.zetta.net [74.114.124.9]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2VHpow9015284 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bilby.zetta.net (bilby.zetta.net [10.10.1.16]) by pmon001.zetta.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 906F920001C90 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:51:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: by bilby.zetta.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2ACC8C4E54A47; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:51:45 -0700 From: Paul Armstrong To: sage-members@sage.org Message-ID: <20100331175144.GF4811@otoh.org> References: <4BB3885C.9080808@will.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4BB3885C.9080808@will.to> X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Server time & local time. X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:51:53 -0000 At 2010-03-31T13:37-0400, Doug Hughes wrote: > Jason Dusek wrote: >> Not sure how I picked it up; but I've always operated on >> the assumption that server time should be UTC. Is this a >> common practice? > very common in companies with more than one location, especially in the > context of cron jobs that run hourly. Somewhat less common in small > companies with just one location, but still present. If you're not running in UTC, it's well worth changing to do so before you get too big. I used to work for a company that had significant issues with their billing due to the time changing underneath the software twice a year. It was _really_ expensive to find all the bugs related to this problem. Best to do your time translation as close to the end user as possible (ideally, in their browser via JavaScript). IMNSHO, that pretty much holds true for most standards though. Keep your servers and software using standards such as UTC, ISO8601 date/time formats and metric measurements and then do any translation necessary at the user level (if they care, but often they don't and you've just made your life a _lot_ easier). Paul From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Wed Mar 31 12:33:48 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2VJXmEc031863 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:33:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2VJXip1017574 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o2VJXqIj014959; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 15:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 15:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <49163.207.61.230.154.1270064032.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <20100331175144.GF4811@otoh.org> References: <4BB3885C.9080808@will.to> <20100331175144.GF4811@otoh.org> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 15:33:52 -0400 (EDT) From: "David Magda" To: "Paul Armstrong" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Server time & local time. X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 19:33:48 -0000 On Wed, March 31, 2010 13:51, Paul Armstrong wrote: > IMNSHO, that pretty much holds true for most standards though. Keep your > servers and software using standards such as UTC, ISO8601 date/time > formats and metric measurements and then do any translation necessary at > the user level (if they care, but often they don't and you've just made > your life a _lot_ easier). Does that include processing everything in the A4 paper size and then converting on-the-fly to US letter? :) From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Wed Mar 31 12:42:11 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o2VJgBBF031996 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:42:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2VJg7qB017788 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:42:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o2VJgQHS015514; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 15:42:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 15:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1298.207.61.230.154.1270064547.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 15:42:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "David Magda" To: "Jason Dusek" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Server time & local time. X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 19:42:11 -0000 On Wed, March 31, 2010 13:11, Jason Dusek wrote: > Not sure how I picked it up; but I've always operated on > the assumption that server time should be UTC. Is this a > common practice? Most old school Unix machines had their hardware clock set to UTC / GMT, and so when the kernel came up it would grab, and then adjust accordingly to either POSIX timezones or zoneinfo (if specified). I believe the current non-x86 hardware still does this. FreeBSD for example assumes the CMOS/BIOS clock is in UTC unless you specify otherwise: > FILES > /etc/localtime Current zoneinfo file, see tzsetup(8)