From dpuryear@puryear-it.com Tue Jan 5 07:52:23 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o05FqMie008519 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 07:52:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpuryear@puryear-it.com) Received: from mail.puryear-it.com (mail.puryear-it.com [207.29.213.194]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o05FqJlU023682 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 07:52:22 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 09:51:52 -0600 Message-ID: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Failover on Sun Solaris Thread-Index: AcqOHv/2Yx60KyQWRKWoBWKbCqZBlw== From: "Dustin Puryear" To: X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 15:52:23 -0000 Anyone familiar with anything similar to Linux Virtual Server (LVS) or SteelEye LifeKeeper (LK) but with Solaris support? Both LVS and LK provide Linux with failover capabilities and are pretty simple to configure. I'm looking for something similar, but for Solaris. =20 I know that a hardware load-balancer in front of two Solaris boxes will suffice, but we're looking for something that runs on the Solaris boxen. =20 Thoughts? =20 --- Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ =20 Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ =20 =20 From kat@totkat.org Tue Jan 5 08:53:31 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o05GrVFV010610 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 08:53:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kat@totkat.org) Received: from mail-fx0-f212.google.com (mail-fx0-f212.google.com [209.85.220.212]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o05GrRha025397 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 08:53:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm4 with SMTP id 4so13647037fxm.12 for ; Tue, 05 Jan 2010 08:53:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.170.73 with SMTP id r9mr594021hbe.63.1262710401014; Tue, 05 Jan 2010 08:53:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 16:53:20 +0000 Message-ID: <523a2afd1001050853p65ddc9a0k38ad1c58f6e8a128@mail.gmail.com> From: Kate Driskell To: Dustin Puryear Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:53:31 -0000 Sun Cluster (now called Solaris Cluster, I believe)? Support costs an arm and a leg ans Sun insist on validating supportability of the installation, but it works very well if you do have a certified installation. 2010/1/5 Dustin Puryear : > Anyone familiar with anything similar to Linux Virtual Server (LVS) or > SteelEye LifeKeeper (LK) but with Solaris support? Both LVS and LK > provide Linux with failover capabilities and are pretty simple to > configure. I'm looking for something similar, but for Solaris. > > > > I know that a hardware load-balancer in front of two Solaris boxes will > suffice, but we're looking for something that runs on the Solaris boxen. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > --- > Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ > > Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On > Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies > > Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" > http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- http://www.totkat.org/ From treed@copilotco.com Tue Jan 5 10:22:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o05IMWc5014864 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:22:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o05IMTuX027916 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:22:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 6A41F64C80; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:22:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:22:29 -0800 From: Tracy Reed To: Dustin Puryear Message-ID: <20100105182229.GO14231@tracyreed.org> References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NPukt5Otb9an/u20" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 18:22:33 -0000 --NPukt5Otb9an/u20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 05, 2010 at 09:51:52AM -0600, Dustin Puryear spake thusly: > Anyone familiar with anything similar to Linux Virtual Server (LVS) or > SteelEye LifeKeeper (LK) but with Solaris support? Both LVS and LK LVS doesn't care what kind of boxes you put behind it. > provide Linux with failover capabilities and are pretty simple to > configure. I'm looking for something similar, but for Solaris. Why specifically Solaris? You could try Varnish, which claims it can function as a load balancer and seems rather scriptable. I don't know how easy to implement it is as I have only used it as a simple reverse-proxy. > I know that a hardware load-balancer in front of two Solaris boxes will > suffice, but we're looking for something that runs on the Solaris boxen. Your "hardware" load-balancer will most likely be Linux under the hood anyway. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --NPukt5Otb9an/u20 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLQ4Nl9PIYKZYVAq0RAiOcAJwOe8bx042wPCu6CRaVYWYTUtNXVQCfcDW5 Mo3umw9IJV5v339T/spUYF8= =a0G5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NPukt5Otb9an/u20-- From treed@copilotco.com Tue Jan 5 10:23:06 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o05IN6wT014912 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:23:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o05IN3BD027936 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 40A8664C80; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:23:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: Tracy Reed Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:23:03 -0800 Resent-Message-ID: <20100105182303.GP14231@tracyreed.org> Resent-To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:22:29 -0800 From: Tracy Reed To: Dustin Puryear Message-ID: <20100105182229.GO14231@tracyreed.org> References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NPukt5Otb9an/u20" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 10:27:56 -0800 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 18:23:06 -0000 --NPukt5Otb9an/u20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 05, 2010 at 09:51:52AM -0600, Dustin Puryear spake thusly: > Anyone familiar with anything similar to Linux Virtual Server (LVS) or > SteelEye LifeKeeper (LK) but with Solaris support? Both LVS and LK LVS doesn't care what kind of boxes you put behind it. > provide Linux with failover capabilities and are pretty simple to > configure. I'm looking for something similar, but for Solaris. Why specifically Solaris? You could try Varnish, which claims it can function as a load balancer and seems rather scriptable. I don't know how easy to implement it is as I have only used it as a simple reverse-proxy. > I know that a hardware load-balancer in front of two Solaris boxes will > suffice, but we're looking for something that runs on the Solaris boxen. Your "hardware" load-balancer will most likely be Linux under the hood anyway. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --NPukt5Otb9an/u20 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLQ4Nl9PIYKZYVAq0RAiOcAJwOe8bx042wPCu6CRaVYWYTUtNXVQCfcDW5 Mo3umw9IJV5v339T/spUYF8= =a0G5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NPukt5Otb9an/u20-- From sage-list-psa@otoh.org Tue Jan 5 10:37:31 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o05IbVJO015595 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:37:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sage-list-psa@otoh.org) Received: from pmon001.zetta.net (kharon.zetta.net [74.114.124.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o05IbSPw028372 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:37:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from bilby.zetta.net.zetta.net (bilby.zetta.net [10.10.1.16]) by pmon001.zetta.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F90120001BFE; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 18:28:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: by bilby.zetta.net.zetta.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 201E1C5107361; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:28:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:28:42 -0800 From: Paul To: Dustin Puryear Message-ID: <20100105182841.GB18024@zetta.net> References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 18:37:32 -0000 At 2010-01-05T09:51-0600, Dustin Puryear wrote: > Anyone familiar with anything similar to Linux Virtual Server (LVS) or > SteelEye LifeKeeper (LK) but with Solaris support? Both LVS and LK > provide Linux with failover capabilities and are pretty simple to > configure. I'm looking for something similar, but for Solaris. > > I know that a hardware load-balancer in front of two Solaris boxes will > suffice, but we're looking for something that runs on the Solaris boxen. As mentioned, for clustering Solaris Cluster may do what you want. If you need remote data copy (the Linux equivalent is DRBD), then you're probably after AVS http://www.sun.com/storage/management_software/data_protection/availability/features.xml If you're also after a load balancer component, then OpenSolaris build 129 or later has that built in. If you're after a load balancer that runs on Solaris 10 (or earlier), then Balance is your friend: http://www.inlab.de/balance.html Paul From dhanks@gmail.com Tue Jan 5 12:01:06 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o05K16IV018620 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:01:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: from mail-px0-f201.google.com (mail-px0-f201.google.com [209.85.216.201]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o05K13Xq000499 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:01:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by pxi39 with SMTP id 39so12452808pxi.2 for ; Tue, 05 Jan 2010 12:00:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=pXvSDyq8kHIN39XJoM7L2i59wtAQvKKisIHQGjDBTAk=; b=GxL0yjj45Ey/7LNPhFkt8X7MPOyzmACeXT1z7xvmA9BPJHozALLWFja/rCQiHlE5lL ZdWH4k/Lxjql/nzq1Fr3xYxgqBpdizadSZoiSeaXfzCVurYWYsSV/mCOdyOZOzOw3n48 hCda0O56uSdAMjYe5rdLwMSS03hEv3Xje/Tcs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=Yeta6Oiak7xE0T27YvbX24YVFejLKi3fyX2EunxBxeVjYJROQKsbLc4CiotVPheOp7 FXmlUd7OSqeS58K49FNfe4tur0FKUty0ZaYjFM9xrGrauUjxYai4zrTi65gG8au2l71z 65JCufUML8gosB1n1cqLrz492Qz08cTZBzEHk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.114.18 with SMTP id r18mr615028wam.24.1262721658211; Tue, 05 Jan 2010 12:00:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:00:58 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1001051200m2238383wea18bf7f6e4496fa@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: Dustin Puryear X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=19% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 20:01:06 -0000 Doesn't Veritas do this? http://www.symantec.com/business/cluster-server On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 7:51 AM, Dustin Puryear wrote: > Anyone familiar with anything similar to Linux Virtual Server (LVS) or > SteelEye LifeKeeper (LK) but with Solaris support? Both LVS and LK > provide Linux with failover capabilities and are pretty simple to > configure. I'm looking for something similar, but for Solaris. > > > > I know that a hardware load-balancer in front of two Solaris boxes will > suffice, but we're looking for something that runs on the Solaris boxen. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > --- > Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ > > Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On > Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies > > Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" > http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From dhanks@gmail.com Tue Jan 5 12:06:52 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o05K6qlO018723 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:06:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f53.google.com (mail-pw0-f53.google.com [209.85.160.53]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o05K6nNC000647 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:06:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwi18 with SMTP id 18so10411382pwi.12 for ; Tue, 05 Jan 2010 12:06:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=eXoOjljT8zMWF8pq4DDKfaIFkpj1c9bWF45UPvmGS+c=; b=BszQJwXbhP7Ht8AtY79er+0XsmhYSaJ64NxmgC6K/+MsIuumIeefuSutS216zQcmdg nYUHTLPbls7jUbo1wmSnuRFe+dCQ4fM8WziM20FejZK2EndaasMfFmcG/LYCmZBXFhtt lk86JzmHhK3Q5pFY3Mybpsk2qejxc52NnaPAQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=Ll1shBiHwUyOk36EpqijBALVlER7Ho/tB2R7ryFIvr7b41/cQ3sU13kmb3BI36AWMT UlADUspk/zgImYhuP7CqZjv2QaYoWIp2KzI6TJ09ThH9qGMtDeOqCb1Macm+vKeVoTRZ E7W4NG1OkRY3AR4A6JvDDN3+FiFgmYhWI8wwg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.102.16 with SMTP id e16mr1540299wam.202.1262722004538; Tue, 05 Jan 2010 12:06:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:06:44 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1001051206j1422563aic633aec1514c003d@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: Dustin Puryear X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=16% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 20:06:53 -0000 Also - I thought that the SteelEye/Veritas/Clustering software allowed you to create application resource groups, which monitored the application, the hardware and a heart-beat between servers. If anything failed, it would promote a server to take over the application, handle the shutdown/startup scripts, handle redo logs and etc. The main idea is to provide high availability for databases, because the general model is active/passive. A load balancer is more for distributing incoming load across multiple servers in an active/active scenario. I know with F5 you can create pools and create a custom active/passive scenario, but that isn't common. On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 7:51 AM, Dustin Puryear wrote: > Anyone familiar with anything similar to Linux Virtual Server (LVS) or > SteelEye LifeKeeper (LK) but with Solaris support? Both LVS and LK > provide Linux with failover capabilities and are pretty simple to > configure. I'm looking for something similar, but for Solaris. > > > > I know that a hardware load-balancer in front of two Solaris boxes will > suffice, but we're looking for something that runs on the Solaris boxen. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > --- > Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ > > Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On > Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies > > Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" > http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From dpuryear@puryear-it.com Tue Jan 5 12:08:37 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o05K8bd2018778 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:08:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpuryear@puryear-it.com) Received: from mail.puryear-it.com (mail.puryear-it.com [207.29.213.194]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o05K8YFt000705 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:08:37 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 14:08:07 -0600 Message-ID: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E7D@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris Thread-Index: AcqOQpuHv2ElcRbqTJy0vQkKXkECigAABb2Q References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> <82a71f8a1001051206j1422563aic633aec1514c003d@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dustin Puryear" To: "Doug Hanks" X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 20:08:38 -0000 Yes, we're familiar with SteelEye. Actually, I love the LifeKeeper product! Great stuff. It's unfortunate they don't have a build for Solaris. =20 --- Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ =20 From: Doug Hanks [mailto:dhanks@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 2:07 PM To: Dustin Puryear Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris =20 Also - I thought that the SteelEye/Veritas/Clustering software allowed you to create application resource groups, which monitored the application, the hardware and a heart-beat between servers. If anything failed, it would promote a server to take over the application, handle the shutdown/startup scripts, handle redo logs and etc. The main idea is to provide high availability for databases, because the general model is active/passive. A load balancer is more for distributing incoming load across multiple servers in an active/active scenario. I know with F5 you can create pools and create a custom active/passive scenario, but that isn't common. On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 7:51 AM, Dustin Puryear wrote: Anyone familiar with anything similar to Linux Virtual Server (LVS) or SteelEye LifeKeeper (LK) but with Solaris support? Both LVS and LK provide Linux with failover capabilities and are pretty simple to configure. I'm looking for something similar, but for Solaris. I know that a hardware load-balancer in front of two Solaris boxes will suffice, but we're looking for something that runs on the Solaris boxen. Thoughts? --- Puryear IT, LLC - Baton Rouge, LA - http://www.puryear-it.com/ Active Directory Integration : Web & Enterprise Single Sign-On Identity and Access Management : Linux/UNIX technologies Download our free ebook "Best Practices for Linux and UNIX Servers" http://www.puryear-it.com/pubs/linux-unix-best-practices/ _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members --=20 - Doug Hanks =3D dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From mark.drummond@empire.ca Tue Jan 5 12:54:12 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o05KsCSe020078 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:54:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark.drummond@empire.ca) Received: from mail2.empire.ca (tmail2.empire.ca [159.18.222.17]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o05Ks83H001646 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:54:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.empire.ca (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78AF39FD49; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 15:47:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from KGNMSG01VS.empire.corp (unknown [159.18.244.10]) by mail2.empire.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D819FD47; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 15:47:31 -0500 (EST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 15:47:29 -0500 Message-ID: <0E954BBB8227E441AFCB021BB102869802886A2C@KGNMSG01VS.empire.corp> In-Reply-To: <523a2afd1001050853p65ddc9a0k38ad1c58f6e8a128@mail.gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris Thread-Index: AcqOKsLF/5J0r9DiTzKJbPsuAp/FiAAHGq3A References: <43452C495F09D048BF7CE9F96B65688E112E62@sbs.Puryear-IT.local> <523a2afd1001050853p65ddc9a0k38ad1c58f6e8a128@mail.gmail.com> From: "Mark Drummond" To: "Kate Driskell" , "Dustin Puryear" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.3187-6.0.0.1038-17114.001 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: Yes X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o05KsCSe020078 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 20:54:12 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org > [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of > Kate Driskell > Sent: 05 January 2010 11:53 AM > To: Dustin Puryear > Cc: sage-members@usenix.org > Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failover on Sun Solaris > > Sun Cluster (now called Solaris Cluster, I believe)? Support costs an > arm and a leg ans Sun insist on validating supportability of the > installation, but it works very well if you do have a certified > installation. Sun Cluster is 'free' if you don't need support. Support costs depend on the server you intend to run it on. The bigger the server, the higher the support costs. As mentioned, your installation needs to be certified before it can be supported. You can have Sun perform a certified install, or install it yourself and then have them validate your installation. Either way, a certified installation will cost (obviously). http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/cluster/faq.jsp#g3 Open HA Cluster is available if you are moving towards OpenSolaris. http://www.opensolaris.com/learn/features/availability/ Cheers, Mark CONFIDENTIALITY CAUTION: This communication and any attachments is for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, proprietary, confidential and exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of the communication is strictly prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender and destroy this email immediately. AVERTISSEMENT RELATIF À LA CONFIDENTIALITÉ: Cet envoi (et toute pièce jointe) ne s'adresse qu'à la personne ou à l'entité à laquelle il est destiné. Il peut contenir des renseignements privilégiés, confidentiels et ne devant pas être divulgués. 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From dhanks@gmail.com Fri Jan 8 09:46:49 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o08HknBj049316 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 09:46:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: from mail-px0-f201.google.com (mail-px0-f201.google.com [209.85.216.201]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o08HkkW9010431 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 09:46:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by pxi39 with SMTP id 39so14870566pxi.2 for ; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 09:46:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=8c224PRhmHeJ2ZLG6sqKP9mBNZBsgp+yVKzwKjZLXn4=; b=Euz6bpFqsxUBn0Q5QlmYv8HVKN6sDLyAPFprc16Tm8HgnvM8RVS+pfNcuE68oFPIuN HDmIOxS6dmBqIGIZWwYD3f5yb34E2EwZmh9dUGXmsxw5SvCzBW0t/vVtH04i6CgxxCbt 92YOuyNUTTjSHdF/LohRPEvW7u4InmPGvfQHk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=K/lbuWV/SpAaScrsvY9rMkLoxFR94u5CCYwFDlYdUIhjNyO752I8ndWGqqt+9saDXR QHrhdsFrMnQ8IIeF84yuOU8H9svYBvMlI1t91kz1dczolURJzXrpMVkz11Zd02vEZFFQ jg71NwUpVSk49ao/9eyh64f7C2bK+uqDarB5A= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.236.23 with SMTP id j23mr3086985wah.164.1262972801458; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 09:46:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 09:46:41 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: SAGE Members X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=13% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 17:46:50 -0000 Hey guys, How do you usually implement dual NICs? I've seen a lot of different configurations throughout the years. Generally the idea is that the server has two network cards, and each NIC connects to a separate switch. Generally the NICs are configured in an active/passive scenario where the 2nd NIC takes over if the 1st NIC fails or loses link. One idea I was playing with was what if you enabled spanning-tree on the host and create a VLAN interface and assigned that logical interface an IP. Anyone ever tried this? This could also be extended to support 802.1q. Generally sys admins want tons of network cards, to support cluster heart beats, access iSCSI VLAN, and another for general network connectivity. I figured a good solution would be to just support two NICs that support spanning tree and 802.1q. Thoughts? -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From doug@will.to Fri Jan 8 10:46:23 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o08IkMVN050903 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:46:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o08IkJVD004999 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:46:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [149.77.79.216] (psistorm.nyc.deshaw.com [149.77.79.216]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id o08IkFSf032718 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:46:16 -0500 Message-ID: <4B477D76.2010408@will.to> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 13:46:14 -0500 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Hanks References: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0rc3 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Fri, 08 Jan 2010 13:46:16 -0500 (EST) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:46:23 -0000 Doug Hanks wrote: > Hey guys, > > How do you usually implement dual NICs? I've seen a lot of different > configurations throughout the years. > > Generally the idea is that the server has two network cards, and each NIC > connects to a separate switch. > > Generally the NICs are configured in an active/passive scenario where the > 2nd NIC takes over if the 1st NIC fails or loses link. > > One idea I was playing with was what if you enabled spanning-tree on the > host and create a VLAN interface and assigned that logical interface an IP. > Anyone ever tried this? This could also be extended to support 802.1q. > Generally sys admins want tons of network cards, to support cluster heart > beats, access iSCSI VLAN, and another for general network connectivity. I > figured a good solution would be to just support two NICs that support > spanning tree and 802.1q. > > Thoughts? > > You don't want to do spanning tree. You probably want something like IPMP or bonding. Spanning tree will have terrible failover convergence, but bonding will allow you to failover quickly. If both switches are on the same network segment, it's easy, You can have them plugged into your router(s) which are setup with the equivalent of HSRP and you've got redundancy. example: http://linux-ip.net/html/ether-bonding.html From dhanks@gmail.com Fri Jan 8 11:02:57 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o08J2vEl051304 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:02:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f195.google.com (mail-pz0-f195.google.com [209.85.222.195]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o08J2rfO013579 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:02:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by pzk33 with SMTP id 33so5260344pzk.2 for ; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 11:02:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=pF4DerXRZmKnf9w1HqlTzltjKRruQ1UeNF4QMzFKj7Y=; b=INgoPHZKCV4uy8vZKXFVRlDU3A0bHfy81/iWOAeR6IhbMpRJzdkmSzRkh6/RaO9pxC WQQeXwSrL6xmXqcNd3TV0RRSc7g/oenPDItD9U7ihF3Vvyalm/2TOF2VezT4vrnjItjm Z6cRKvwc3+QbZ2QT97aQTcx9181655IRt6eZI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=bV6Q4CMmw63AfmYzVpdADcGCMtbEe9Fe/FK5B7PWEgx8ba2QGpl41+QKrPAsBU7nGc KLJEsEBnCdINaBfKFQPJ//lloc8hK/mpOc1A8bpPmqL22lO1fZ0QTJFaxGN5Ck9J8rHq /U0TXCgWZDIc1PF9A/ameCmxSGgipXAXY908Y= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.105.15 with SMTP id d15mr11614570wac.18.1262977364780; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 11:02:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <3190526A-E6A8-49D7-9286-5BC741AA2C1B@acm.org> References: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> <3190526A-E6A8-49D7-9286-5BC741AA2C1B@acm.org> Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:02:44 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: "Mark R. Lindsey" X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=19% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 19:02:57 -0000 I'm getting a lot of good feedback. I've seen all of the below methods and I agree as well. Some of the most reliable designs have been with bonding or virtual IP. I would never enable or rely on spanning tree past the access point - would cause way too many problems. However I do like the idea of VLAN tagging to reduce the number of required network cards. Have you seen any bonding or virtual IP designs that use 802.1q? On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Mark R. Lindsey wrote: > There are four popular approaches that I see for implementing redundant > physical network interfaces on a host. > > 1. Virtual IP. > > The "Virtual IP" is a real IP address that's used by the *service*, such as > SMTP, DNS, or SIP. It's "Virtual" in the sense that it's not statically > assigned to a physical interface. > > In the most fully-featured designs, both interfaces are active > simultaneously. Each interface has a utility IP address that is different > from the virtual IP. Each interface has a utility MAC address, but there's > also a virtual MAC address. An interface is assigned to be active, and it > uses both the virtual IP with the virtual MAC; it simultaneously retains its > utility IP and utility MAC. Using the utility IP and utility MAC address on > BOTH interfaces, the host regularly polls the local gateway with ARP > requests, or ICMP pings, to verify connectivity. If the active interface > fails to get a response to the ARP request or the ICMP ping, then the host > may move the virtual IP and virtual MAC address to the other interface, then > broadcast a gratuitous ARP for the virtual IP and virtual MAC. This > gratuitous ARP serves to update the layer-2 > mac-address-to-ethernet-switch-port tables. > > Acme Packet has an excellent implementation of this on their Net-Net SD > platform used for VoIP call security. The Solaris IP Multipathing can be > setup like this. The standard Linux "bond" kernel driver implements also > most of these features. The Cisco ASA/Pix software does something a lot like > this as well. I believe Windows server has something like this too. > > Unfortunately, some implementations detect only link-state failures, so > they cannot detect when the link stays up but the Ethernet broadcast domain > is partitioned. E.g., if you mis-assign the VLAN on a switch port, the link > stays up but the port does you no good. > > Further, this model typically doesn't provide for load balancing. The > virtual MAC address is routed, by the upstream ethernet switch, to exactly > one port at a time. > > 2. Routing protocol. > > There are systems that use standard ethernet, but each Ethernet link is a > /30 point-to-point network. Then the service IP address is advertised via > OSPF through each of those point-to-point links. This requires > routing-protocol support through the connected network; it works if each of > your Ethernet links is directly connected to an OSPF-capable router. > > Nortel is the only vendor I've seen using this lately. > > 3. Link bonding (802.3ad / LACP). > > In this model, you use LACP to bond two Ethernet links together into one > virtualized Ethernet link. Then in the OS you configure that one Ethernet > link as usual. You're depending on LACP fault detection to take a link > offline in the case of a fault. > > This requires the host be connected to an LACP-capable Ethernet switch. > > 4. Multiple IP addresses. > > Each Ethernet interface is connected independently, with its own IP > address. Then application support, with DNS, can be used to choose an > interface or to fail over to the other address. The difficult thing is > getting predictable application failover support; e.g., for a web server, > you need the web browser to attempt to re-connect to the other IP address in > the case of a fault. > > This pushes the interface fault-tolerance problem up to a higher layer than > the other three approaches -- possibly too high. I'm all for "Implement > things at the highest layer possible," as Linus Torvalds has said. "...but > no higher". > > However, using multiple IP addresses is typically the approach taken if > your services are geographically distributed. E.g., if one web server is in > NYC, and the other is in Chicago, then it can be quite expensive to put the > same IP address on each server. It's possible if you own enough of the > network; consider 4.2.2.2, apparently in use by numerous "independent" > Level(3) DNS servers. > > ------------------- > > To your proposal: I suspect that LACP would get you closer than spanning > tree, for your stated goals. > > > > > > > > On Jan 8, 2010, at 12:46 PM, Doug Hanks wrote: > > Hey guys, >> >> How do you usually implement dual NICs? I've seen a lot of different >> configurations throughout the years. >> >> Generally the idea is that the server has two network cards, and each NIC >> connects to a separate switch. >> >> Generally the NICs are configured in an active/passive scenario where the >> 2nd NIC takes over if the 1st NIC fails or loses link. >> >> One idea I was playing with was what if you enabled spanning-tree on the >> host and create a VLAN interface and assigned that logical interface an >> IP. >> Anyone ever tried this? This could also be extended to support 802.1q. >> Generally sys admins want tons of network cards, to support cluster heart >> beats, access iSCSI VLAN, and another for general network connectivity. I >> figured a good solution would be to just support two NICs that support >> spanning tree and 802.1q. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> -- >> - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> > > -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From lindsey@acm.org Fri Jan 8 11:17:36 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o08JHas9051511 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:17:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lindsey@acm.org) Received: from e-c-group.com (mail.ispsouth.com [216.128.192.248]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o08JHVfk020105 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:17:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [24.172.251.167] (account lindsey HELO [172.24.127.60]) by e-c-group.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.13) with ESMTPSA id 127396843; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 13:47:26 -0500 Message-Id: <3190526A-E6A8-49D7-9286-5BC741AA2C1B@acm.org> From: "Mark R. Lindsey" To: Doug Hanks In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:47:26 -0500 References: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=0 Fuz1=0 Fuz2=0 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 19:17:36 -0000 There are four popular approaches that I see for implementing redundant physical network interfaces on a host. 1. Virtual IP. The "Virtual IP" is a real IP address that's used by the *service*, such as SMTP, DNS, or SIP. It's "Virtual" in the sense that it's not statically assigned to a physical interface. In the most fully-featured designs, both interfaces are active simultaneously. Each interface has a utility IP address that is different from the virtual IP. Each interface has a utility MAC address, but there's also a virtual MAC address. An interface is assigned to be active, and it uses both the virtual IP with the virtual MAC; it simultaneously retains its utility IP and utility MAC. Using the utility IP and utility MAC address on BOTH interfaces, the host regularly polls the local gateway with ARP requests, or ICMP pings, to verify connectivity. If the active interface fails to get a response to the ARP request or the ICMP ping, then the host may move the virtual IP and virtual MAC address to the other interface, then broadcast a gratuitous ARP for the virtual IP and virtual MAC. This gratuitous ARP serves to update the layer-2 mac-address-to-ethernet- switch-port tables. Acme Packet has an excellent implementation of this on their Net-Net SD platform used for VoIP call security. The Solaris IP Multipathing can be setup like this. The standard Linux "bond" kernel driver implements also most of these features. The Cisco ASA/Pix software does something a lot like this as well. I believe Windows server has something like this too. Unfortunately, some implementations detect only link-state failures, so they cannot detect when the link stays up but the Ethernet broadcast domain is partitioned. E.g., if you mis-assign the VLAN on a switch port, the link stays up but the port does you no good. Further, this model typically doesn't provide for load balancing. The virtual MAC address is routed, by the upstream ethernet switch, to exactly one port at a time. 2. Routing protocol. There are systems that use standard ethernet, but each Ethernet link is a /30 point-to-point network. Then the service IP address is advertised via OSPF through each of those point-to-point links. This requires routing-protocol support through the connected network; it works if each of your Ethernet links is directly connected to an OSPF- capable router. Nortel is the only vendor I've seen using this lately. 3. Link bonding (802.3ad / LACP). In this model, you use LACP to bond two Ethernet links together into one virtualized Ethernet link. Then in the OS you configure that one Ethernet link as usual. You're depending on LACP fault detection to take a link offline in the case of a fault. This requires the host be connected to an LACP-capable Ethernet switch. 4. Multiple IP addresses. Each Ethernet interface is connected independently, with its own IP address. Then application support, with DNS, can be used to choose an interface or to fail over to the other address. The difficult thing is getting predictable application failover support; e.g., for a web server, you need the web browser to attempt to re-connect to the other IP address in the case of a fault. This pushes the interface fault-tolerance problem up to a higher layer than the other three approaches -- possibly too high. I'm all for "Implement things at the highest layer possible," as Linus Torvalds has said. "...but no higher". However, using multiple IP addresses is typically the approach taken if your services are geographically distributed. E.g., if one web server is in NYC, and the other is in Chicago, then it can be quite expensive to put the same IP address on each server. It's possible if you own enough of the network; consider 4.2.2.2, apparently in use by numerous "independent" Level(3) DNS servers. ------------------- To your proposal: I suspect that LACP would get you closer than spanning tree, for your stated goals. On Jan 8, 2010, at 12:46 PM, Doug Hanks wrote: > Hey guys, > > How do you usually implement dual NICs? I've seen a lot of different > configurations throughout the years. > > Generally the idea is that the server has two network cards, and > each NIC > connects to a separate switch. > > Generally the NICs are configured in an active/passive scenario > where the > 2nd NIC takes over if the 1st NIC fails or loses link. > > One idea I was playing with was what if you enabled spanning-tree on > the > host and create a VLAN interface and assigned that logical interface > an IP. > Anyone ever tried this? This could also be extended to support > 802.1q. > Generally sys admins want tons of network cards, to support cluster > heart > beats, access iSCSI VLAN, and another for general network > connectivity. I > figured a good solution would be to just support two NICs that support > spanning tree and 802.1q. > > Thoughts? > > -- > - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From lindsey@acm.org Fri Jan 8 11:40:51 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o08JepTh051799 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:40:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lindsey@acm.org) Received: from e-c-group.com (mail.ispsouth.com [216.128.192.248]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o08JelOf000380 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:40:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [24.172.251.167] (account lindsey HELO [172.24.127.60]) by e-c-group.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.13) with ESMTPSA id 127397259; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 14:10:44 -0500 Message-Id: From: "Mark R. Lindsey" To: Doug Hanks In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:10:44 -0500 References: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> <3190526A-E6A8-49D7-9286-5BC741AA2C1B@acm.org> <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 19:40:51 -0000 On Jan 8, 2010, at 2:02 PM, Doug Hanks wrote: > Have you seen any bonding or virtual IP designs that use 802.1q? At a high level, you can readily mix bonding and 802.1q. All the frames have an 802.1q header, and every IP address is assigned with a VLAN tag attached. But it doesn't change anything else fundamental. In Linux with the bond driver, it's really easy. From mike.diehn@gmail.com Fri Jan 8 11:59:28 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o08JxSkt052178 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:59:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike.diehn@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw0-f173.google.com (mail-yw0-f173.google.com [209.85.211.173]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o08JxOJd009512 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:59:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by ywh3 with SMTP id 3so19275626ywh.22 for ; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 11:59:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; bh=rSPZ1t7DoOdScQh8EItHKPz0h2mTJ1fopE2zk7fkEfA=; b=abnfoV337P7kuZyVEisJ0f0z90kk4mtJY64/szXPo7s1WkraK6vDJ3xDMQSsNuFmak nqIsASenWZYaS63GzV20bLG9kCE6dFjWT8Hdn5lnxnVferCsptnMSa/BMtI7KvnJ1yOm br6+hODNHsdPRfBF7RkYmZCMWUm+ky28NgDQw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=j3A6T2RVJBhfsQzrYmKIbdn+6dbeBGeVTvVDaRjEClOwBhXHwh7Mn+J0HvU9dTeX73 /2n5+WSFR1oNlcY81Z+xmIE+vgD7kz+u58w3kY9qxp8EaTm7q8mpVY7tbp66PTk38c35 s6U64h8V13nMg6aff8zYizoF1qIcJYdmNfTLc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mike.diehn@gmail.com Received: by 10.150.127.4 with SMTP id z4mr771684ybc.37.1262980759113; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 11:59:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> References: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> <3190526A-E6A8-49D7-9286-5BC741AA2C1B@acm.org> <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> From: Mike Diehn Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:58:59 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: f5f36fcb2687b4cc Message-ID: <2a03c5ff1001081158y36d45907qe7f4203c9044a9af@mail.gmail.com> To: Doug Hanks X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 19:59:28 -0000 Have any experience with "heartbeat?" AKA Pacemaker? It's an open source HA software package, usually used to make an active/passive "cluster" of two servers. Seems to me you could use it to switch a service IP from one interface to another on one server, though. Mike On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Doug Hanks wrote: > I'm getting a lot of good feedback. > > I've seen all of the below methods and I agree as well. Some of the most > reliable designs have been with bonding or virtual IP. > > I would never enable or rely on spanning tree past the access point - would > cause way too many problems. > > However I do like the idea of VLAN tagging to reduce the number of required > network cards. > > Have you seen any bonding or virtual IP designs that use 802.1q? > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Mark R. Lindsey wrote: > > > There are four popular approaches that I see for implementing redundant > > physical network interfaces on a host. > > > > 1. Virtual IP. > > > > The "Virtual IP" is a real IP address that's used by the *service*, such > as > > SMTP, DNS, or SIP. It's "Virtual" in the sense that it's not statically > > assigned to a physical interface. > > > > In the most fully-featured designs, both interfaces are active > > simultaneously. Each interface has a utility IP address that is different > > from the virtual IP. Each interface has a utility MAC address, but > there's > > also a virtual MAC address. An interface is assigned to be active, and it > > uses both the virtual IP with the virtual MAC; it simultaneously retains > its > > utility IP and utility MAC. Using the utility IP and utility MAC address > on > > BOTH interfaces, the host regularly polls the local gateway with ARP > > requests, or ICMP pings, to verify connectivity. If the active interface > > fails to get a response to the ARP request or the ICMP ping, then the > host > > may move the virtual IP and virtual MAC address to the other interface, > then > > broadcast a gratuitous ARP for the virtual IP and virtual MAC. This > > gratuitous ARP serves to update the layer-2 > > mac-address-to-ethernet-switch-port tables. > > > > Acme Packet has an excellent implementation of this on their Net-Net SD > > platform used for VoIP call security. The Solaris IP Multipathing can be > > setup like this. The standard Linux "bond" kernel driver implements also > > most of these features. The Cisco ASA/Pix software does something a lot > like > > this as well. I believe Windows server has something like this too. > > > > Unfortunately, some implementations detect only link-state failures, so > > they cannot detect when the link stays up but the Ethernet broadcast > domain > > is partitioned. E.g., if you mis-assign the VLAN on a switch port, the > link > > stays up but the port does you no good. > > > > Further, this model typically doesn't provide for load balancing. The > > virtual MAC address is routed, by the upstream ethernet switch, to > exactly > > one port at a time. > > > > 2. Routing protocol. > > > > There are systems that use standard ethernet, but each Ethernet link is a > > /30 point-to-point network. Then the service IP address is advertised via > > OSPF through each of those point-to-point links. This requires > > routing-protocol support through the connected network; it works if each > of > > your Ethernet links is directly connected to an OSPF-capable router. > > > > Nortel is the only vendor I've seen using this lately. > > > > 3. Link bonding (802.3ad / LACP). > > > > In this model, you use LACP to bond two Ethernet links together into one > > virtualized Ethernet link. Then in the OS you configure that one Ethernet > > link as usual. You're depending on LACP fault detection to take a link > > offline in the case of a fault. > > > > This requires the host be connected to an LACP-capable Ethernet switch. > > > > 4. Multiple IP addresses. > > > > Each Ethernet interface is connected independently, with its own IP > > address. Then application support, with DNS, can be used to choose an > > interface or to fail over to the other address. The difficult thing is > > getting predictable application failover support; e.g., for a web server, > > you need the web browser to attempt to re-connect to the other IP address > in > > the case of a fault. > > > > This pushes the interface fault-tolerance problem up to a higher layer > than > > the other three approaches -- possibly too high. I'm all for "Implement > > things at the highest layer possible," as Linus Torvalds has said. > "...but > > no higher". > > > > However, using multiple IP addresses is typically the approach taken if > > your services are geographically distributed. E.g., if one web server is > in > > NYC, and the other is in Chicago, then it can be quite expensive to put > the > > same IP address on each server. It's possible if you own enough of the > > network; consider 4.2.2.2, apparently in use by numerous "independent" > > Level(3) DNS servers. > > > > ------------------- > > > > To your proposal: I suspect that LACP would get you closer than spanning > > tree, for your stated goals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 8, 2010, at 12:46 PM, Doug Hanks wrote: > > > > Hey guys, > >> > >> How do you usually implement dual NICs? I've seen a lot of different > >> configurations throughout the years. > >> > >> Generally the idea is that the server has two network cards, and each > NIC > >> connects to a separate switch. > >> > >> Generally the NICs are configured in an active/passive scenario where > the > >> 2nd NIC takes over if the 1st NIC fails or loses link. > >> > >> One idea I was playing with was what if you enabled spanning-tree on the > >> host and create a VLAN interface and assigned that logical interface an > >> IP. > >> Anyone ever tried this? This could also be extended to support 802.1q. > >> Generally sys admins want tons of network cards, to support cluster > heart > >> beats, access iSCSI VLAN, and another for general network connectivity. > I > >> figured a good solution would be to just support two NICs that support > >> spanning tree and 802.1q. > >> > >> Thoughts? > >> > >> -- > >> - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com > >> _______________________________________________ > >> sage-members mailing list > >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org > >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > >> > > > > > > > -- > - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- Mike Diehn Diehn Consulting, LLC mike.diehn@gmail.com From sjohnson@monsters.org Fri Jan 8 14:35:03 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o08MZ3Gq058691 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:35:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sjohnson@monsters.org) Received: from mothra.monsters.org (adsl-208-191-248-5.dsl.ltrkar.swbell.net [208.191.248.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o08MYxwQ025708 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:35:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.13.13.201] ([170.94.139.93]) (authenticated bits=0) by mothra.monsters.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o08M3nj2011849 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 16:03:51 -0600 From: Stephen Johnson To: SAGE Members X-Mailer: Modest 3.0 References: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> <3190526A-E6A8-49D7-9286-5BC741AA2C1B@acm.org> <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> <2a03c5ff1001081158y36d45907qe7f4203c9044a9af@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2a03c5ff1001081158y36d45907qe7f4203c9044a9af@mail.gmail.com> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 16:03:47 -0600 Message-Id: <1262988227.4038.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Stephen Johnson List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 22:35:03 -0000 ----- Original message ----- > Have any experience with "heartbeat?"  AKA Pacemaker?  It's an open source > HA software package, usually used to make an active/passive "cluster" of two > servers.  Seems to me you could use it to switch a service IP from one > interface to another on one server, though. We use heartbeat on our Enterprise FTP server at work. It's an active/standby 2 node cluster. Heartbeat works extremly well. Takeover of the standby node is under a well under a second (for FTP process, virtual IP address and SAN storage LUN as cluster managed resouces ). From sage-list-psa@otoh.org Fri Jan 8 14:52:47 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o08Mqlf0059194 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:52:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sage-list-psa@otoh.org) Received: from pmon001.zetta.net (kharon.zetta.net [74.114.124.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o08MqipP025974 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:52:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from bilby.zetta.net.zetta.net (bilby.zetta.net [10.10.1.16]) by pmon001.zetta.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BED0720001BE8; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 22:52:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: by bilby.zetta.net.zetta.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 36C15C5069DF0; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:52:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:52:28 -0800 From: Paul To: Mike Diehn Message-ID: <20100108225228.GD17319@zetta.net> References: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> <3190526A-E6A8-49D7-9286-5BC741AA2C1B@acm.org> <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> <2a03c5ff1001081158y36d45907qe7f4203c9044a9af@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2a03c5ff1001081158y36d45907qe7f4203c9044a9af@mail.gmail.com> X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 22:52:48 -0000 At 2010-01-08T14:58-0500, Mike Diehn wrote: > Have any experience with "heartbeat?" AKA Pacemaker? It's an open source > HA software package, usually used to make an active/passive "cluster" of two > servers. Seems to me you could use it to switch a service IP from one > interface to another on one server, though. We're using it (heartbeat 2.1.3) and have no end of trouble with it. Goes crazy and chews up 100% CPU, doesn't failover cleanly (fails to take over the resource when the current primary panics) and a variety of other things. And all we're doing is moving one IP address between Xen hosts, nothing complicated. I've heard others saying they've had great luck with it, but it's been only marginally better than having no failover at all for me (and some weeks, less than that). Paul From brent@netomata.com Fri Jan 8 16:26:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o090Q8JV061185 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 16:26:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brent@netomata.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f53.google.com (mail-pw0-f53.google.com [209.85.160.53]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o090Q5qB027543 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 16:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwi18 with SMTP id 18so337788pwi.12 for ; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 16:26:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.141.214.27 with SMTP id r27mr7135423rvq.286.1262996760417; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 16:26:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> References: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> <3190526A-E6A8-49D7-9286-5BC741AA2C1B@acm.org> <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 16:26:00 -0800 Message-ID: From: Brent Chapman To: Doug Hanks X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=15% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 00:26:09 -0000 On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Doug Hanks wrote: > However I do like the idea of VLAN tagging to reduce the number of required > network cards. > > Have you seen any bonding or virtual IP designs that use 802.1q? > > Yes, I've implemented such designs. Works fine. Here's a blog entry that I wrote about setting up VLAN trunks (which uses 802.1q to talk to the switch) over bonded NIC cards, with each NIC connected to a different switch. In this blog entry, I was setting this up on a Xen dom0, so that I could attach individual Xen clients "directly" to particular VLANs; the underlying server (dom0) could access all the VLANs directly, though, simply by creating a "bond0.NNN" interface, where NNN was the relevant VLAN ID. http://www.netomata.com/blog/brent_chapman/2009/02/25/36 As shown in the blog entry, the interesting parts of setting up the bond0 interface are in the "iface bond0 ..." section of the /etc/network/interfaces file: auto bond0 iface bond0 inet manual slaves eth0 eth1 # It's important to use active-backup mode when you've got 2 separate # upstream switches. The various other bonding modes only work when # you're connecting to the SAME upstream switch; they are useful for # increasing bandwidth, but not for failover protection against an # upstream switch failure (or local interface failure, cabling failure, # and the like). bond_mode active-backup # "bond_miimon 100" checks the CARRIER status of the physical # interfaces every 100ms, and switches from the primary to the # backup interface if the carrier fails. So, if the upstream # switch hangs but doesn't drop carrier, you're screwed, because # bond_miimon won't detect that. bond_miimon 100 # Given that bond_miimon won't detect certain upstream switch # failures, it might seem like you want to use bond_arp_ip_target # monitoring instead, which purports to make sure you can actually # move traffic by sending ARP requests and looking for replies. # Unfortunately, in this configuration, the bond0 interface doesn't # actually have an IP address (the vlanNN VLAN bridges that are # established below do, but not the bond0 interface itself), so # the ARP requests/replies won't work and you can't use # bond_arp_ip_target. # bond_arp_ip_target 10.5.1.2 10.5.16.3 # bond_arp_interval 100 As the comments explain, in this particular sample configuration, the underlying bond0 interface does _not_ have an IP address of its own, and without that, cannot use the bond_arp_ip_target method to detect upstream switch failure. This example instead has to rely on the bond_miimon method, which only detects switch failures if the switch drops carrier on the physical link (i.e., if the switch freezes up and stops moving packets but doesn't drop carrier, the switch failure is NOT detected). If you assign an IP address to the bond0 interface itself (on the trunk's "native" VLAN, which is usually VLAN 1), then you can use the bond_arp_ip_target method (and related bond_arp_interval parameter) instead of the bond_miimon method. The IP addresses you specify in the bond_arp_ip_target line need to be each switch's address on the same "native" VLAN of the trunk. The server will send an ARP request for each of those addresses every 100ms (assuming "bond_arp_interval 100", as show above); as long as each switch keeps responding to those ARP requests (which is a decent indication that the switch is "up" enough to be passing traffic), the failover mechanism treats the switch as "still alive". -Brent -- Brent Chapman Netomata, Inc. -- www.netomata.com Making networks more cost-effective, reliable, and flexible by automating network configuration From bryanf@samurai.com Fri Jan 8 22:15:52 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o096FpnL070150 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 22:15:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bryanf@samurai.com) Received: from st01.samurai.com (st01.samurai.com [216.235.14.52]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o096FmTq002902 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 22:15:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from h216-235-8-77.host.egate.net ([216.235.8.77] helo=[192.168.2.15]) by st01.samurai.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NTUbu-000OXN-H8 for sage-members@usenix.org; Sat, 09 Jan 2010 01:15:42 -0500 Message-ID: <4B481F0F.4030008@samurai.com> Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 01:15:43 -0500 From: Bryan Fullerton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091204 Thunderbird/3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members References: <82a71f8a1001080946h50689b26qb6c696589b572d58@mail.gmail.com> <3190526A-E6A8-49D7-9286-5BC741AA2C1B@acm.org> <82a71f8a1001081102v7773baf8i897e753a0b12e262@mail.gmail.com> <2a03c5ff1001081158y36d45907qe7f4203c9044a9af@mail.gmail.com> <1262988227.4038.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1262988227.4038.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus-Scanner: Clean mail though you should still use an Antivirus X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dual NICs / 802.1q / spanning tree X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 06:15:52 -0000 On 08/01/2010 5:03 PM, Stephen Johnson wrote: > ----- Original message ----- > >> Have any experience with "heartbeat?" AKA Pacemaker? It's an open source >> HA software package, usually used to make an active/passive "cluster" of two >> servers. Seems to me you could use it to switch a service IP from one >> interface to another on one server, though. >> > We use heartbeat on our Enterprise FTP server at work. It's an active/standby 2 node cluster. Heartbeat works extremly well. Takeover of the standby node is under a well under a second (for FTP process, virtual IP address and SAN storage LUN as cluster managed resouces ). > We've had similar experience at $work, we very successfully replaced a Windows 2003 box and warm standby with an active/standby heartbeat-2 cluster on Ubuntu. It serves several million static media assets (images, video files) from an iSCSI backend to Akamai for our hosting clients. Heartbeat-2 moves the service IP, services, and iSCSI mounts quickly and cleanly. I have a half-written blog post about our setup that I need to finish someday. Bryan From jrmailgate-sage@yahoo.co.uk Mon Jan 11 02:56:15 2010 Received: from web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com (web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com [87.248.114.231]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id o0BAuEcf059258 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 02:56:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrmailgate-sage@yahoo.co.uk) Received: (qmail 6651 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2010 10:56:08 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1263207368; bh=6TIDipehvdfmeFkGE8h/C66cdRExmKZHnzu8ENc/97I=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=UguWLfaksRY5care6NLnHvklHR04kN57Jxo2GWD0RlLVDeLnfCgArvdywqDdcQ6Jj6rkyEFdvYdDrghDqWL89kui4mC5jXJY0MyX+dmmUFQjyqJJcPgyPGVL54brhpSbdAEmDTamn1fpkxFh8SLuuMinEtu/+p6K6OPOGSUO0Uc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=dXrRuqicXre5kJad5ABOsrmNuMjC1zPhhBWWPJ/EahkVZAZXFVlTba2mVwL4vA/MsNRVpHMWepYqtI5f8bSZhTWxaCZaMJCZrD8GzICvq6atnzEbIvsCH0cGU6SfSU5+4pUP9MwOxiCKBqax16GvjmX9SL3rTT4bHlREiKjVpZ8=; Message-ID: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: Hr.ZyMAVM1mTX2txSz1e5fxGOARxRGqpvIROTDICjnn.kNXHnZeoQZx7cOOc8RgVeOCv7rn9G0krykoim8ckpmztKsMIJzA_d_Nvz4lowH0XMpn8NH5cuif5bOKamoocwgmYCcn9CKmxNh4uON9Csz2gUMvVkdlhSIxzATBbyI7F4sIx8Xlms4.AS4TuHqh0iawt_OgvNvZVmAVsMK3PrKyAZlkkI4U- Received: from [194.70.246.1] by web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:56:08 GMT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/240.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:56:08 +0000 (GMT) From: Julian Regel To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:56:16 -0000 Hi=0A=0AI'm looking for a way to backup a Solaris ZFS filesystem to tape.= =0A=0AMy current thinking is to take a snapshot and perform a "zfs send" to= the tape device:=0A=0A# zfs send tank/home@monday > /dev/rmt/0cn=0A=0AThe = problem here is that if the snapshot is greater than the capacity of a sing= le tape, the backup will fail.=0A=0ADoes anyone have any suggestions on com= mands that handle multiple volumes (similar to ufsdump, but that will work = with any datastream and not the UFS strucuture)?=0A=0AI'm hoping I'm missin= g something really trivial, but at the moment, the inability to backup a ZF= S filesystem to a tape library is a showstopper for us.=0A=0AAn alternative= question (but hopefully with the same answer), for ZFS users, how are you = backing up to tape (if you are)?=0A=0AThanks for any advice.=0A=0AJR=0A=0A= =0A=0A From sraspet@gmail.com Mon Jan 11 06:15:17 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f220.google.com (mail-fx0-f220.google.com [209.85.220.220]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0BEFGfZ066090 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 06:15:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sraspet@gmail.com) Received: by fxm20 with SMTP id 20so20643238fxm.35 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 06:15:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=wrNWi/Ca/VA/JKxpf59UKf/Gn3MG3MJHq+AU5ZWsnCo=; b=RDqd3uw0EBWGw2Ul6pw7KC68miIvJbwYlod8cM5id39Qd/uDp0S7KD/M/SKTEusEwA 6dnlaufvqsZM1Z7BH8aIQKWCF2qzBZdGTVq2GU9yA4pXNYcSPKIUdMUONqHJ0fyfV0wj 0C5r0K4IkPTiy0cf80jxVbImqmupLjHD/ZOHQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=b3xc95mhWg1585RhFdgPm1ciBoUwS1LN4GST2Qy9/5xPpBJ1x0VOgHG1J7NEBX9jIO rLieVahB0Kws/sdK/3atIevxDZFXR1+MgYkNzHH9RCn/EPrvJWkqCkfPr79dxV2HOO9O xHouIk9m3SpusFMiGm6NHe1V1a1djeuozSD/Q= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.199.199 with SMTP id i7mr650002hbj.204.1263219309842; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 06:15:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 09:15:09 -0500 Message-ID: From: Sunny Raspet To: Julian Regel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 14:15:17 -0000 > My current thinking is to take a snapshot and perform a "zfs send" to the tape device: > > # zfs send tank/home@monday > /dev/rmt/0cn > > The problem here is that if the snapshot is greater than the capacity of a single tape, the backup will fail. > > Does anyone have any suggestions on commands that handle multiple volumes (similar to ufsdump, but that will work with any datastream and not the UFS strucuture)? Caveat emptor: At my current site, we a) use $EXPENSIVE_FILESYSTEM_PRODUCT instead of ZFS, and b) use $EXPENSIVE_BACKUP_PRODUCT instead of homegrown solutions. However: is there any reason you can't take a snapshot and dump it into cpio (which of course has multi-volume support?) -slr From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Mon Jan 11 08:18:22 2010 Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0BGIM1b070213 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:18:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o0BGIGg6000833; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:18:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:18:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <14453.207.61.230.154.1263226696.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:18:16 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Julian Regel" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 16:18:23 -0000 On Mon, January 11, 2010 05:56, Julian Regel wrote: > I'm looking for a way to backup a Solaris ZFS filesystem to tape. > > My current thinking is to take a snapshot and perform a "zfs send" to the > tape device: > > # zfs send tank/home@monday > /dev/rmt/0cn This is not recommended by Sun and the ZFS Team, as there is currently no guarantee that the 'zfs send' stream will will be forward- or backward-compatible. This has been discussed on the zfs-discuss list often: http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss [...] > An alternative question (but hopefully with the same answer), for ZFS > users, how are you backing up to tape (if you are)? NetWorker, NetBackup, AMANDA, Bacula, etc., are options. At $WORK we're currently using NetWorker (pre-acquisition) but are transitioning to NetBackup (new corporate standard post-acquisition). Using {s,g}tar/cpio on the snapshot as mentioned in another message is certainly an option. From lyndon@orthanc.ca Mon Jan 11 10:11:04 2010 Received: from orthanc.ca (orthanc.ca [208.86.224.138]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0BIB3a3074559 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:11:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lyndon@orthanc.ca) Received: from orthanc.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orthanc.ca (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o0BIB2ix046726 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:11:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lyndon@orthanc.ca) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by orthanc.ca (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with UUCP id o0BIB2Es046725; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:11:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lyndon@orthanc.ca) Received: from legolas.yyc.orthanc.ca (legolas.yyc.orthanc.ca [172.16.0.4]) (authenticated bits=0) by legolas.yyc.orthanc.ca (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o0BIB0C2002407 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:11:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lyndon@orthanc.ca) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:11:00 -0700 (MST) From: Lyndon Nerenberg X-X-Sender: lyndon@legolas.yyc.orthanc.ca To: Julian Regel In-Reply-To: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Organization: The Frobozz Magic Homing Pigeon Company MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:11:05 -0000 > Does anyone have any suggestions on commands that handle multiple > volumes (similar to ufsdump, but that will work with any datastream and > not the UFS strucuture)? A relatively simple solution would be to build a dedicated dump host. Send the output of your dumps (of whatever format) to the dumphost, and use something like Amanda to manage writing the data to tape. A relatively generic x86 or amd64 box running, say, FreeBSD, is more than up to the task. When sizing the hardware make sure you have enough network bandwidth to keep up with the incoming stream of dumps. If you need more than a single Gig-E pipe, consider adding a two- or four-port PCI express Gig-E NIC (I highly recommend Intel NICs for this) and use link aggregation (802.1AX/LACP) to bond them into a fatter pipe. --lyndon From tednolan@bellsouth.net Mon Jan 11 10:29:39 2010 Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.121]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0BITdK8075145 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:29:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tednolan@bellsouth.net) X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=JqWe0O0ivM0A:10 a=1S7Dfl4KEZ33cL-KVqkA:9 a=TL7U06vwS9Clwjdnaq03i6oj0nUA:4 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 76.182.167.7 Received: from [76.182.167.7] ([76.182.167.7:35878] helo=sri.com) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id 65/BF-19471-D0E6B4B4; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:29:33 +0000 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Message-ID: <65.BF.19471.D0E6B4B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> In-Reply-To: Message from Lyndon Nerenberg of "Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:11:00 MST." From: tednolan@bellsouth.net Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 13:28:41 -0500 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:30:51 -0800 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:29:40 -0000 In message you writ e: >> Does anyone have any suggestions on commands that handle multiple >> volumes (similar to ufsdump, but that will work with any datastream and >> not the UFS strucuture)? > >A relatively simple solution would be to build a dedicated dump host. Send >the output of your dumps (of whatever format) to the dumphost, and use >something like Amanda to manage writing the data to tape. > Of course you could write a little program that reads stdin, writes a set amount to the tape, closes it and prompts on /dev/tty for another.. (A similar program in reverse for reading back of course) I did that back in the day for some multi tape stuff. Of course we were dealing with what are now trivial stream sizes, don't know that I'd trust my petabytes to such a thing, and it doesn't account for any compression your tape hardware can do.. Ted From jrmailgate-sage@yahoo.co.uk Mon Jan 11 10:31:15 2010 Received: from web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com (web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com [87.248.114.231]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id o0BIVE6Z075193 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:31:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrmailgate-sage@yahoo.co.uk) Received: (qmail 58852 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2010 18:31:09 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1263234669; bh=P0EHe3mHGYzxzOLf2jaqfrrNBQ9xNQtZDJF1eq1CAMM=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=jt+nJZQNkrwWkTIv/tnOpF0aM+Hn/ZR9oEnty6YybuJonJVKo095GrHmSYDM9MLtY+rcyhcGB+uYedDB4QqH2vLdC4jSfbSlqQefmVIQExxEWEkhqC6WQ9hW3E1tAXSta/Dd2f4V3pD51CYkrcAvJa8u0GPk8PIqwUWdWLvdKW0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ZvF0oXc7Hmqwkk8sN24cxzbIh9L8d5W/CaFvl1PK1IsxjC+CMQVx2+I73o+vclv/EfEEr8X0gaQbl3oRf65qSfBW3gZSEKJ2YdVdrTJI3oItjxCWiFNm1bkLlTr8zi53ZDbnFsDQ0PecU9o3LXEwGQVljyvdHjMvTfeva/mCUro=; Message-ID: <75731.58709.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 623tlz8VM1nkd_VWBtc2m5IXzH0VByDO68VsctsHeKrJIFL.KgJI1oXL6pktqMyoNuXWqTux0fOM437h1eZT3R1u.M5EiAoGpyxO8IFAbVfhQKDmXzihB9d3q8Qp01A7rBzwpVull4hnr1UtfqqCYwokETeX5CuhlrNcd4DoArm823B8FXMr4I08MeNRn70iPJBJ7UIW6mGNLk44Wg_KBLTEc_wZL7pMKCveJeqLNzWzU7nZrO1Eb_Xo.TQPArndvSU- Received: from [80.176.138.246] by web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:31:08 GMT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/240.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:31:08 +0000 (GMT) From: Julian Regel To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:31:16 -0000 Thanks for the comments and suggestions.=0A=0AIt's disappointing that we ar= e reliant on third party products (and in some cases additional hardware) t= o implement backup in a way that is equivalent to what our customers curren= tly get for free.=0A=0AI suppose that if I want to use tools provided by So= laris itself, I'm limited to tar, cpio or pax, and unless I misread the doc= umentation, cpio and pax are the only two that will handle multiple tapes.= =0A=0ASeems like Sun have a missing piece in the jigsaw.=0A=0AIf anyone has= any further ideas, please post!=0A=0AJR=0A=0A=0A From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Mon Jan 11 17:12:04 2010 Received: from tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.110]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0C1C3VX087450 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:12:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toip5.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.88]) by tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100112011203.PFTO1786.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip5.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 20:12:03 -0500 Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279335839.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.65.29.159]) by toip5.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 11 Jan 2010 20:12:40 -0500 Message-Id: From: David Magda To: Julian Regel In-Reply-To: <75731.58709.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 20:12:02 -0500 References: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <75731.58709.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 01:12:04 -0000 On Jan 11, 2010, at 13:31, Julian Regel wrote: > It's disappointing that we are reliant on third party products (and > in some cases additional hardware) to implement backup in a way that > is equivalent to what our customers currently get for free. If you have support contract(s) with Sun, call them up and ask them that you wish to be added to Bug IDs: 6807049 - zfs send stream format should be documented http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6807049 5004379 - want comprehensive backup strategy http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=5004379 Talking about it on this list won't help matters. You have to document it with Sun so they know where to put resources; squeaky wheel and all that. From des@cs.duke.edu Mon Jan 11 19:41:22 2010 Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0C3fLnr091001 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 19:41:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@cs.duke.edu) Received: from killerbee.westell.com (pool-96-233-224-13.rlghnc.dsl-w.verizon.net [96.233.224.13] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0C3fJG6006632 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 11 Jan 2010 22:41:20 -0500 (EST) X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.3 duke.cs.duke.edu o0C3fJG6006632 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=cs.duke.edu; s=mail; t=1263267680; bh=VwzNAI0j948a+0vSo2lchSrWKJIUpmwx8Np3MEFtDcU=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=YkU6pg8OajOpttJhHEVroOvEzoNJUpvN61vj4KfhmJxjskh05qiQIf6ULLeOX2FDi 5Z21vT7p1NDK3qwqOzkkxTNsUhLwmQxE2gctTYV+FWnoPmoR3CvRG/xt+qBJlQOwNH 5e30KBFrSiLepo0ymKOS2FxV6xFpfkoLAPHX7eHY= Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 22:41:43 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Singer X-X-Sender: des@killerbee To: Julian Regel In-Reply-To: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (DEB 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 03:41:22 -0000 On Mon, 11 Jan 2010, Julian Regel wrote: > I'm looking for a way to backup a Solaris ZFS filesystem to tape. > > My current thinking is to take a snapshot and perform a "zfs send" > to the tape device: > > # zfs send tank/home@monday > /dev/rmt/0cn > > The problem here is that if the snapshot is greater than the > capacity of a single tape, the backup will fail. > > Does anyone have any suggestions on commands that handle multiple > volumes (similar to ufsdump, but that will work with any datastream > and not the UFS strucuture)? > ... This program is a buffered copy filter, and supports multiple tapes and/or drives on Solaris: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~des/c/team.share.gz Your command line would be something like: zfs send tank/home@monday | team -vr -W "{a-script-to-notify-you-to-change-tapes}" 256k 3 64 > /dev/rmt/0cn -- Daniel E. Singer, System Administrator Dept. of Computer Science, Duke University, Durham NC 27708 USA From jrmailgate-sage@yahoo.co.uk Tue Jan 12 00:12:46 2010 Received: from web24508.mail.ird.yahoo.com (web24508.mail.ird.yahoo.com [87.248.114.235]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id o0C8Ch2V099568 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 00:12:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrmailgate-sage@yahoo.co.uk) Received: (qmail 99390 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2010 08:12:37 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1263283957; bh=l93kOThadKo8WKayAZRwjoI5AyZfjJAYwHZZLM2AAis=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=dPRiq2Mf0D/evdd6p8rmrtlA4i09UnZUX73LYsrb4lb1pFyjHDK/qbS/IUMoPF9SD4U9vztjqiYOmjiS1T3m5M+BOwiRY/kElItf8WB8y2qNStXfvmWOmC7SCZP7AVC40ZBvlnNEtyivDnv4wEFbMr6Ii/DVaGK257RbVQCHOaM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=cmFPNbViz9GHjc/PFOEza5qecU0mqP/W/yM7lrvzLREtzB0RyZftzALibxRWIaiEXJvVX+7IUL59a8wnzXWWWntegiRzrn/J6ehY//mMbdKIWL0L2a+pwRneBdg2eJrjPozIKhJYeCIdb/H2uvTyhN7knjBryIYgvxawWrnBbTk=; Message-ID: <826996.99379.qm@web24508.mail.ird.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: M4nK7QcVM1ki23hA7WJx2KtZXsy4TFn1oLWuDqoj.0rKUF8IHnhzUBCD46h4N3BxhA3sE2OSVDYkJvbePS1t9UPRhKilZl2V3TimEATZXQyvMEzAYLjwl4uDwOKew3jO4s9HFy5daXf8wuzIhpDZ133W5KEVvetyI8E6U5VweH4B8_HPk_QOmCbEQzyiccdZ65dC1kM7DY57xRdvestG8RkC.fOxJNi09KkjGjG1jomxpF6G.xfxNwEL_Fr9qEGjyRj20TlN Received: from [194.70.246.1] by web24508.mail.ird.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 00:12:37 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/240.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <75731.58709.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 00:12:37 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Regel To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 08:12:47 -0000 David=0A=0AThanks for the pointers to the bugs. I'll follow this up with Su= n.=0A=0AJR=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: David Mag= da =0ATo: Julian Regel = =0ACc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org=0ASent: Tue, 12 January, 2010 1:12:02= =0ASubject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes=0A=0AOn Jan 11, 2010, at = 13:31, Julian Regel wrote:=0A=0A> It's disappointing that we are reliant on= third party products (and in some cases additional hardware) to implement = backup in a way that is equivalent to what our customers currently get for = free.=0A=0AIf you have support contract(s) with Sun, call them up and ask t= hem that you wish to be added to Bug IDs:=0A=0A 6807049 - zfs send strea= m format should be documented=0A http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdata= base/view_bug.do?bug_id=3D6807049=0A 5004379 - want comprehensive backup= strategy=0A http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug= _id=3D5004379=0A=0ATalking about it on this list won't help matters. You ha= ve to document it with Sun so they know where to put resources; squeaky whe= el and all that.=0A=0A=0A From robert@timetraveller.org Wed Jan 13 09:30:59 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DHUx3A055250 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:30:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@timetraveller.org) Received: from procyon.opentrend.net (li144-209.members.linode.com [109.74.197.209]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DHUuqV023227 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:30:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by procyon.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1004) id F264CCEF8; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:23:16 -0500 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on procyon.opentrend.net X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, FH_DATE_PAST_20XX autolearn=no version=3.2.5 Received: from castor.opentrend.net (unknown [192.168.120.16]) by procyon.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18C8CD05 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:23:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BA2A7E507A69; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:30:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B45CA41597A5 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:30:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:30:15 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Brockway X-X-Sender: robert@castor.opentrend.net To: SAGE Members List Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:31:00 -0000 ... let it fall. It's only stuff and it should be insured anyway. http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/Vic-man-crushed-by-falling-server/0,130061702,339300407,00.htm?feed=rss&omnRef=http://forum.iprimus.com.au/index.php?topic=4241.0 :( Rob -- Email: robert@timetraveller.org IRC: Solver Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy From sechrest@gmail.com Wed Jan 13 09:44:15 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DHiFDI055565 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:44:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sechrest@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f53.google.com (mail-pw0-f53.google.com [209.85.160.53]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DHiCqE023564 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:44:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwj3 with SMTP id 3so1398625pwj.12 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:44:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=vlMCw29Q2GxXy8C2JLkyfcFxvRwaG+pMueNJ+Pb+/oY=; b=qJtz5rLLPa1lIdSU3TB6x+ZvkpxqRuyI0/6YAarOMMSp0GqPbXlKiogVnMEKMfBz+j ZQW/vyhdxebVrM9xfGjbBE80k/X2YtT/QYa36Iqy0xk/GHrmQASEAJoiTSf/GgyCVwi9 /NeT1mVSvzK9Uj4FTju0ImOPu1OGVbRsgMDXg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=NuDZWNj1z0pVKx8gxXHV7Y4kUsvo7/GUigckY6+a4QlxWdB5um7dZswJY3fzJTMPqk 2AGAyZ3nkd3qpdyN2Bz5N+rSisTm2mp+V63/PKReYvF6qKj5FVg+l87Bfz18PsyNiF/C /xQAXMokpObQSWm8BxUGDObaaHOiaFbpXj9mU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: sechrest@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.2.29 with SMTP id 29mr265409wab.48.1263404646895; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:44:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:44:06 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: d0851303de6a5739 Message-ID: <313372bc1001130944g488be447mfa6d60cec394bdf@mail.gmail.com> From: John Sechrest To: Robert Brockway X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=16% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:44:16 -0000 Absolutely let it fall. And do not try to hold on to it or support it. Popped something in my back and loose feeling in my toes over this very thing. Way not worth it. On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:30 AM, Robert Brockway wrote: > ... let it fall. It's only stuff and it should be insured anyway. > > > http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/Vic-man-crushed-by-falling-server/0,130061702,339300407,00.htm?feed=rss&omnRef=http://forum.iprimus.com.au/index.php?topic=4241.0 > > :( > > Rob > > -- > Email: robert@timetraveller.org > IRC: Solver > Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com > I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > -- John Sechrest . Corvallis Benton . Chamber Coalition . 420 NW 2nd . (541) 757-1507 . sechrest@corvallisedp.com . . From rskiadmin@chycoski.com Wed Jan 13 10:06:50 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DI6oUS056199 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:06:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rskiadmin@chycoski.com) Received: from adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.122.242.225]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DI6loR024264 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:06:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.72.2] (wizfast.rski.net [192.168.72.2]) by adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o0DI6dco025666; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:06:39 -0800 Message-ID: <4B4E0BAF.4070508@chycoski.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:06:39 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Brockway References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:06:51 -0000 A similar (serious but thankfully not fatal) accident happened at $WORK some years ago, I came upon an individual who had been about to lower a full rack on a power tail gate that gave way - he had no time to get out of the way. We have emergency-response-trained people in most buildings that I called to the scene, the paramedics came shortly after that. If you are lowering a server on a power tail gate - DO NOT STAND ON OR NEAR THE TAILGATE! If it's on wheels, lock or block them, and always stand on the inside of the truck, or beside it, not on or in front of the tailgate until the tailgate is lowered. - Richard Robert Brockway wrote: > ... let it fall. It's only stuff and it should be insured anyway. > > http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/Vic-man-crushed-by-falling-server/0,130061702,339300407,00.htm?feed=rss&omnRef=http://forum.iprimus.com.au/index.php?topic=4241.0 > > > :( > > Rob > From timetrap@gmail.com Wed Jan 13 11:05:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DJ5iKf058107 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:05:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f195.google.com (mail-pz0-f195.google.com [209.85.222.195]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DJ5fSh001234 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:05:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by pzk33 with SMTP id 33so8626255pzk.2 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:05:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fY+LlHPR3UNNQxNPwdsszMpE+9eM4xTB9jgzBZd3uGs=; b=SQUMqE+gNxIVKLWnj7lO0ld3kuD4HLPkHwMXPf2xRTNlzOtCEWi11k5ljY9CD9efRd /kgM27tnN1WijzFHtw0XRcsRC0Jvcxe1ucaBIwET+dD+sG3NFQAW6Bz2aGm+PEZxgyYd 1fIrbORlQowN/0YEj4z6Nw3sBC8OJmxYrXBvI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=JM8jHptWVb7fmq8f6gcl5bscjAPCPWc5VgHA60qbzJWhavpssN4Q6u3IORvoR7BJRc W6d7MQd0f/H9xPXdhT/NDCKCVLLcivZ1/7lGKAgapjKK8imMeFNVlyocF/ig/VjWJHxW MWmHbKm/MxuajogV/hYQgeXJwnvJ2pU0O60KY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.74.19 with SMTP id w19mr934957wfa.56.1263409536287; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:05:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <313372bc1001130944g488be447mfa6d60cec394bdf@mail.gmail.com> References: <313372bc1001130944g488be447mfa6d60cec394bdf@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:05:36 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 25e915848435b861 Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: John Sechrest Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=14% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0DJ5iKf058107 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:05:45 -0000 It was probably a reflex ... poor guy. On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 12:44 PM, John Sechrest wrote: > Absolutely let it fall. And do not try to hold on to it or support it. > > Popped something in my back and loose feeling in my toes over this very > thing. Way not worth it. > > > > On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:30 AM, Robert Brockway > wrote: > >> ... let it fall.  It's only stuff and it should be insured anyway. >> >> >> http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/Vic-man-crushed-by-falling-server/0,130061702,339300407,00.htm?feed=rss&omnRef=http://forum.iprimus.com.au/index.php?topic=4241.0 >> >> :( >> >> Rob >> >> -- >> Email: robert@timetraveller.org >> IRC: Solver >> Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com >> I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> >> > > > -- > John Sechrest          . > Corvallis Benton        . >   Chamber Coalition      . >      420 NW 2nd                   . >             (541) 757-1507              . sechrest@corvallisedp.com >                                                                     . > > >       . > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From mizmoose@gmail.com Wed Jan 13 11:19:20 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DJJKcH058551 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:19:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mizmoose@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f202.google.com (mail-qy0-f202.google.com [209.85.221.202]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DJJHLB001678 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:19:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk40 with SMTP id 40so11795237qyk.22 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:19:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4FbWljoFSRFK/46pPmB2m6AxB+hM1wJ/LF8UpxxDD9g=; b=GQz1Xb+t3deKc/0WAQSa5ZwdBYYf1N0K5o1dkQO7/M58warD+wp0sAE4dBQNytV7Mc A6LqBhAeWg04krHnrWDDNXzADgcFJD6u2BRo3fcVRdylwYn7HSJyfTNoWyHlHKcS5hW8 eIFaqClmR6HLprh1Iu9krEGnXKJQmYRNE9l50= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=PlnG0Mj8Ga308B31vTsH8nS3fzehgecpmk5q7iMzZKJ1CY7S5cPIBAF1x5qrK92ihQ aCElPsf599q06Y01sxkBMV8Cj72ViNi71yNvfj3kPMgPn+rV5BFVem+SdJlhMwyop0C+ WUQBU9LWyIAyc5+NbEzbJjmDA440lxvXceOJ4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.14.136 with SMTP id g8mr5070272qca.100.1263410351400; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:19:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:19:11 -0500 Message-ID: From: Esther Filderman To: SAGE Members List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0DJJKcH058551 Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:19:20 -0000 On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 12:30 PM, Robert Brockway wrote: > ... let it fall.  It's only stuff and it should be insured anyway. > > http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/Vic-man-crushed-by-falling-server/0,130061702,339300407,00.htm?feed=rss&omnRef=http://forum.iprimus.com.au/index.php?topic=4241.0 In my younger days I spent much time in the "putting on concerts" world. After you load and unload trucks of equipment (all owned by other people) you learn a few things. - Slide-out ramps from trucks can lose their grip and slip off the truck. If you're on the ramp you will slam into the ground, too. - Lift gates have a mind of their own. Worse is when the gate operator isn't really paying attention to who is where and what's on the gate. - Even with the heaviest of equipment in 'em, road cases and packing crates can bounce. - If it's made of wood, you will get a splinter. If it's made of metal, you will get a splinter and/or it will pinch you. Wear heavy gloves. And, yes, if it slips, let it go. Thankfully nobody I've known has been killed, though there are tales after tales of riggers and soundmen and lighting guys and more getting killed. But I've seen people dive after falling consoles and get hurt. Once while moving a grand piano it slipped and someone crushed a finger. And then there's the story of the slip of the guitar amp. If someone had tried to save it they would have been badly hurt. Thankfully nobody was, but trying to find amplifier tubes on a Sunday afternoon in the late '80s was a fun experience. From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Wed Jan 13 11:28:55 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DJSsFq058857 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:28:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DJSpBT002013 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:28:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0DJSfjD014622 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:28:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B4E1EE9.5030407@bio.umass.edu> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:28:41 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members List References: <4B4E0BAF.4070508@chycoski.com> In-Reply-To: <4B4E0BAF.4070508@chycoski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:28:50 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:28:55 -0000 Richard Chycoski wrote: > A similar (serious but thankfully not fatal) accident happened at > $WORK some years ago, I came upon an individual who had been about to > lower a full rack on a power tail gate that gave way - he had no time > to get out of the way. We have emergency-response-trained people in > most buildings that I called to the scene, the paramedics came shortly > after that. > > If you are lowering a server on a power tail gate - DO NOT STAND ON OR > NEAR THE TAILGATE! If it's on wheels, lock or block them, and always > stand on the inside of the truck, or beside it, not on or in front of > the tailgate until the tailgate is lowered. > > - Richard > > Robert Brockway wrote: >> ... let it fall. It's only stuff and it should be insured anyway. >> >> http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/Vic-man-crushed-by-falling-server/0,130061702,339300407,00.htm?feed=rss&omnRef=http://forum.iprimus.com.au/index.php?topic=4241.0 >> >> >> :( Near the end of 2008 we were in hurry up mode to get a new building opened for the beginning of the 2009 spring semester at the end of January. The construction was going to be right down to the wire. We had to get in and get the network and server rooms set up and running while the construction was still underway. In order to do that we were required to go through OSHA Construction Standard Training and were issued hardhats with personalized stickers and goggles. Almost all of what I saw in that training was what I would categorize as common sense (but I'm 60, cautious by nature, and have seen and done a lot). However, it was an amazing eye opener to see the videos of stupid things people have done that endangered their lives and that of others. You have to keep your eyes open, survey a situation and imagine and anticipate whatever can possibly go wrong. By thinking about it ahead of time you are less likely to act out of reflex and do something stupid. Over time you retrain those reflexes. -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From dlc@chiba.halibut.com Wed Jan 13 11:50:05 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DJo5Eg059568 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:50:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dlc@chiba.halibut.com) Received: from chiba.halibut.com (IDENT:rduke@chiba.halibut.com [204.238.213.130]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id o0DJo2YC002806 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:50:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 28289 invoked by uid 10174); 13 Jan 2010 19:43:21 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:43:21 -0800 From: David Carmean To: Dave Carmean Message-ID: <20100113114319.T13147@halibut.com> Mail-Followup-To: SAGE Members List References: <4B4E0BAF.4070508@chycoski.com> <4B4E1EE9.5030407@bio.umass.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <4B4E1EE9.5030407@bio.umass.edu>; from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu on Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 02:28:41PM -0500 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:50:05 -0000 Another scenario (the gear was wafer-fab inspection equipment, not a server, but contained a 1000-lb granite block as a component): Vendor delivered equipment to our loading dock but wasn't permitted to deliver it to the building where it would be installed; $WORK's logistics people backed a bobtail truck up to the loading dock's lift gate and our guys started to roll the system onto the back of the truck. As the load transferred to the truck's suspension, it did what suspensions do and compressed, thus toppling the system onto it's side on the truckbed, destroying a $US 1/2-million piece of electro-optical measuring equipment. From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Wed Jan 13 12:00:58 2010 Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DK0vgo059978 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:00:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0DK0t9G018814 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:00:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B4E2677.3080303@bio.umass.edu> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:00:55 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Regel References: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <828624.6195.qm@web24504.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:00:56 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Solaris and multiple tapes X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 20:00:59 -0000 Julian Regel wrote: > Hi > > I'm looking for a way to backup a Solaris ZFS filesystem to tape. > > My current thinking is to take a snapshot and perform a "zfs send" to the tape device: > > # zfs send tank/home@monday > /dev/rmt/0cn > > The problem here is that if the snapshot is greater than the capacity of a single tape, the backup will fail. > > Does anyone have any suggestions on commands that handle multiple volumes (similar to ufsdump, but that will work with any datastream and not the UFS strucuture)? > > I'm hoping I'm missing something really trivial, but at the moment, the inability to backup a ZFS filesystem to a tape library is a showstopper for us. > > An alternative question (but hopefully with the same answer), for ZFS users, how are you backing up to tape (if you are)? > > Thanks for any advice. Just some further comments on this. First, ZFS is still a work in progress. The basic functionality is solid, and the feature set is amazingly cool and continuing to evolve. Near the end of the year there was an informal announcement in the blogosphere that the development version of ZFS now has built in synchronous block level deduplication -- http://blogs.sun.com/bonwick/entry/zfs_dedup ! How awesome is that? However, some things that we might regard as basic (like the richness of ufsdump/restore and such "simple" things as individual file recovery) aren't there yet. Sun is focused on Enterprise Clients where high end commercial backup software is the norm, and other priorities are more important. Nevertheless, ZFS is already awesome. Second, although ZFS doesn't natively provide what we want for backup, third party backup software has evolved to provide the ability to deal with ZFS. But, you don't have to go with expensive commercial solutions. Amanda has been able to deal with ZFS for a while. See http://www.zmanda.com/blogs/?p=128. It can use ZFS snapshots and do a gnutar backup of the snapshot, or it can do a ZFS snapshot and then a ZFS send. In either case, Amanda knows how to take a data stream and break it up into pieces to be dumped to tape, and it knows how to continue those pieces to additional tapes. At recovery, it knows how to reassemble the pieces into the necessary stream for the recovery program. No point in trying to reproduce all that programming when you can just download open source code and get a whole lot more than you would ever be able to do on your own. -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From rskiadmin@chycoski.com Wed Jan 13 12:19:58 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DKJvgS060523 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:19:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rskiadmin@chycoski.com) Received: from adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.122.242.225]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DKJskW003855 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:19:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.72.2] (wizfast.rski.net [192.168.72.2]) by adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o0DKJm9r026791; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:19:48 -0800 Message-ID: <4B4E2AE3.8020309@chycoski.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:19:47 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Hoogendyk References: <4B4E0BAF.4070508@chycoski.com> <4B4E1EE9.5030407@bio.umass.edu> In-Reply-To: <4B4E1EE9.5030407@bio.umass.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 20:19:58 -0000 Chris Hoogendyk wrote: > > You have to keep your eyes open, survey a situation and imagine and > anticipate whatever can possibly go wrong. By thinking about it ahead > of time you are less likely to act out of reflex and do something > stupid. Over time you retrain those reflexes. > This is like the first (and usually only!) time that I caught a falling soldering iron. Most people I know only do it once too. :-) It also applies to other tools or knives - stand back and let them fall on the floor. I'm trying to teach my kids the same thing, but there are some things that you only really learn by doing it wrong at least once. Don't let your 'first time' be with a server on the back of a truck! - Richard From levins@westnet.com Wed Jan 13 12:35:02 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DKZ2wK060917 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:35:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from levins@westnet.com) Received: from westnet.com (root@westnet.com [216.187.52.2]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DKYwuo004193 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:35:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from westnet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id o0DKYwgm011519 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:34:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (levins@localhost) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.13.2/Submit) with ESMTP id o0DKYwtL011515 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:34:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:34:58 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Levin To: SAGE Members List In-Reply-To: <4B4E2AE3.8020309@chycoski.com> Message-ID: References: <4B4E0BAF.4070508@chycoski.com> <4B4E1EE9.5030407@bio.umass.edu> <4B4E2AE3.8020309@chycoski.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 20:35:02 -0000 On Wed, 13 Jan 2010, Richard Chycoski wrote: > It also applies to other tools or knives - stand back and let them fall on > the floor. I'm trying to teach my kids the same thing, but there are some > things that you only really learn by doing it wrong at least once. > > Don't let your 'first time' be with a server on the back of a truck! And, just in case anyone's wondering, it's even more difficult *not* to catch a falling item when you're a juggler -- trust me on this! -Adam From treed@copilotco.com Wed Jan 13 12:48:26 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DKmQFF061176 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:48:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DKmNRr004517 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:48:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id B1F9E64C97; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:48:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:48:23 -0800 From: Tracy Reed To: Robert Brockway Message-ID: <20100113204823.GK9581@tracyreed.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="+Z7/5fzWRHDJ0o7Q" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 20:48:27 -0000 --+Z7/5fzWRHDJ0o7Q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 12:30:15PM -0500, Robert Brockway spake thusly: > ... let it fall. It's only stuff and it should be insured anyway. http://tracyreed.org/photo-album/funny/storagetek_oops.jpg/image_view_fulls= creen This box contains a StorageTek 9145 with 100 18G fibrechannel disks, the chassis, two storage processors, dual UPS batteries in the bottom, etc. IIRC it weighed around 1200lbs. Probably cost around $120k too. It was delivered to my office at MP3.com in San Diego around 1999. We had half a dozen of them or so at this point. In the past they had come in a big truck with a forklift. On this day I remember the delivery guy showed up with the disk array in the back of what was basically a moving truck with one of those infamous lift gates on the back. He had a pallet jack inside the truck. I watched the compression on the rear end compress as the pallet jack wheeled the crate to the back of the truck. Then a little more as it went out onto the gate. Then I watched the gate flex as he pushed the bottom to lower it. Then in amazing slow motion and ever so gracefully the box tipped over perfectly horizontally and fell from about 5 feet straight onto the pavement. I could feel the thud in my legs from where I stood nearby. Glad nobody tried to save it. Having just watched him drop sensitive and expensive disk equipment on the ground there was no way I could accept the delivery. The driver was visibly upset and had no way of getting the thing upright much less back on the truck. He went down the street and rented one of those huge four wheeled diesel forklift things like you see on a construction site (not the little electric/natural gas warehouse kind), speared the box with a tine on the lift, and pushed it back into the truck. =46rom then on they delivered our disk arrays with proper forklifts. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --+Z7/5fzWRHDJ0o7Q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLTjGX9PIYKZYVAq0RAqxqAJkBqvxe9MSdPXjaSbUoMk4+Br4Y6gCfaUaK XTETdBAgBllutRZJhhNjO2A= =zlH/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --+Z7/5fzWRHDJ0o7Q-- From timetrap@gmail.com Wed Jan 13 13:03:38 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DL3cHs061456 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:03:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f53.google.com (mail-pw0-f53.google.com [209.85.160.53]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DL3ZGf004828 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwj3 with SMTP id 3so1540068pwj.12 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:03:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=/EeZn8nVnBGXN6OMgKWZ2GHTNnk3JA+DrPE1ZHD3yRY=; b=SO67epq6+FGEDI+l//IzUBIsHXqQ6UIXPhsjw7cAST8jnwPmFFsJ+EpnDd+wczZ1FN EGcp6z2aQPFKHbqcal+3K/cgyrIPHkrZ2DHN6LBXvPJVOCiPTDCRw1Fg1EbMp9Jjmsfv sT2iTkrK6rVIB52iZlOm0iwJGVfEo/f+UbKeY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=uRNr3A4ECB6lApDBXbuLsR5EEkSn4hFwCI3dI572bMwbK0eVv8s0yEPt7rcHWXhCKe VNueIxgK7tAoc6TPeqgzuSxLpYvya/CBkbdEJ4dHjiMvkq7O27bTdDsj4/TydbpmfpRW Ku9ivNZdRbADYhHP9hOVjWDPhuIFN5nZj9OUs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.74.19 with SMTP id w19mr1025906wfa.56.1263416609899; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:03:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4B4E0BAF.4070508@chycoski.com> <4B4E1EE9.5030407@bio.umass.edu> <4B4E2AE3.8020309@chycoski.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 16:03:29 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: abaac9712f8c4964 Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: Adam Levin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=16% Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 21:03:38 -0000 I was helping someone install some radio equipment on a tower, when I heard an "Oops". This was followed by a cascading sound of tiny metal clinks, followed by a *thunk*. I looked over, about 5 feet from where I was standing, and saw a knife sticking out of the ground. We had a few words afterwards. Be careful of your actions and the people around you as well. On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Adam Levin wrote: > > On Wed, 13 Jan 2010, Richard Chycoski wrote: >> >> It also applies to other tools or knives - stand back and let them fall on >> the floor. I'm trying to teach my kids the same thing, but there are some >> things that you only really learn by doing it wrong at least once. >> >> Don't let your 'first time' be with a server on the back of a truck! > > And, just in case anyone's wondering, it's even more difficult *not* to > catch a falling item when you're a juggler -- trust me on this! > > -Adam > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From jlockard@umich.edu Wed Jan 13 14:54:20 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0DMsKBr064511 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:54:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlockard@umich.edu) Received: from 28dayslater.mr.itd.umich.edu (28dayslater.mr.itd.umich.edu [141.211.12.118]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0DMsDNj006994 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: FROM tombraider.mr.itd.umich.edu (smtp.mail.umich.edu [141.211.93.161]) By 28dayslater.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 4B4E4C2F.CAE5F.16270 ; 13 Jan 2010 17:41:51 EST Received: FROM localhost (dataless.si.umich.edu [141.211.185.113]) By tombraider.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 4B4E4C29.31FB8.20150 ; Authuser jlockard; 13 Jan 2010 17:41:45 EST Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:42:39 -0500 From: John Lockard To: Joseph Kern Message-ID: <20100113224239.GG2722@umich.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Joseph Kern , Adam Levin , SAGE Members List References: <4B4E0BAF.4070508@chycoski.com> <4B4E1EE9.5030407@bio.umass.edu> <4B4E2AE3.8020309@chycoski.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] If the server is falling off a truck or forklift... X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 22:54:21 -0000 A rock or ice climber would have screamed out "ROCK!" to have alerted you. On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 04:03:29PM -0500, Joseph Kern wrote: > I was helping someone install some radio equipment on a tower, when I > heard an "Oops". This was followed by a cascading sound of tiny metal > clinks, followed by a *thunk*. I looked over, about 5 feet from where > I was standing, and saw a knife sticking out of the ground. > > We had a few words afterwards. > > > Be careful of your actions and the people around you as well. > > On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Adam Levin wrote: > > > > On Wed, 13 Jan 2010, Richard Chycoski wrote: > >> > >> It also applies to other tools or knives - stand back and let them fall on > >> the floor. I'm trying to teach my kids the same thing, but there are some > >> things that you only really learn by doing it wrong at least once. > >> > >> Don't let your 'first time' be with a server on the back of a truck! > > > > And, just in case anyone's wondering, it's even more difficult *not* to > > catch a falling item when you're a juggler -- trust me on this! > > > > -Adam > > _______________________________________________ > > sage-members mailing list > > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > -- "Of all the slimy, gross crab monsters on this planet, you are apparently the hottest." - Fry ------------------------------------------------------------------- John M. Lockard | U of Michigan - School of Information Unix and Security Admin | 1214 SI North - 1075 Beal Ave. jlockard@umich.edu | Ann Arbor, MI 48109-2112 www.umich.edu/~jlockard | 734-615-8776 | 734-647-8045 FAX ------------------------------------------------------------------- From marc@lynxconsultants.com Mon Jan 18 10:01:06 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0II16FK023908 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 10:01:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marc@lynxconsultants.com) Received: from mx.iwith.org (mx.iwith.org [212.203.71.220]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0II12lN019360 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 10:01:05 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (mx.iwith.org: authenticated connection) receiver=mx.iwith.org; client-ip=94.194.204.136; helo=treptow.localnet; envelope-from=marc@lynxconsultants.com; x-software=spfmilter 0.97 http://www.acme.com/software/spfmilter/ with libspf2-1.0.0; Received: from treptow.localnet (94-194-204-136.zone8.bethere.co.uk [94.194.204.136]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.iwith.org (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0IHaep3016398 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:36:41 +0100 From: Marc Cluet Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 17:36:39 +0000 Message-Id: To: SAGE Members List Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.2 at front1 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.9 required=3.0 tests=LOCAL_AUTH_RCVD, PRICES_ARE_AFFORDABLE, RDNS_DYNAMIC shortcircuit=no autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on front1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0II16FK023908 Subject: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:01:07 -0000 Hello list members, I have a customer right now that is using UltraDNS as their DNS provider for just one reason, outsourcing DNS queries and being able to withstand a good amount of queries (around 20 million per month) and have a redundant enough platform at affordable prices, UltraDNS is covering our options quite well technically but their prices are high, that's why we're looking for alternatives. We want to be sure that - It is capable of withstand DOS attacks - It has a proper web interface for managing dns (UltraDNS is a bit shaky) - It has proper redundancy (multiple locations) - It has a competitive price - We use around 20 million queries per month on 4 zones with 300 entries I would like to know your experiences about this kind of services. Cheers guys, -- Marc Cluet (marc@lynxconsultants.com) Network and Systems Engineer From richard.dakin@ccci.org Mon Jan 18 11:01:56 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0IJ1umF025329 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 11:01:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from richard.dakin@ccci.org) Received: from mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com (mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com [208.84.65.127]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0IJ1rEA020726 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 11:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (pph41414 [127.0.0.1]) by pph41414.pph.sfo.proofpoint.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with SMTP id o0IIjpth029965; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:01:43 -0500 Received: from hart-edge2.ccci.org ([72.159.180.78]) by pph41414.pph.sfo.proofpoint.com with ESMTP id kak89n9cd-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:01:43 -0500 Received: from HART-E013V.net.ccci.org (10.10.11.4) by HART-EDGE2.ccci.org (172.16.1.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.393.1; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:01:42 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:58:44 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS Thread-Index: AcqYaPKl3sHrkqf6RAuRGPLog0uPTgABzT9Q References: From: Richard Dakin To: Marc Cluet , SAGE Members List X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2010-01-18_08:2010-01-05, 2010-01-18, 2010-01-17 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1001180164 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0IJ1umF025329 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:01:56 -0000 Rick Moen did an article in LinuxGazette that might help. http://linuxgazette.net/170/googledns.html -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Marc Cluet Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 12:37 PM To: SAGE Members List Subject: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS Hello list members, I have a customer right now that is using UltraDNS as their DNS provider for just one reason, outsourcing DNS queries and being able to withstand a good amount of queries (around 20 million per month) and have a redundant enough platform at affordable prices, UltraDNS is covering our options quite well technically but their prices are high, that's why we're looking for alternatives. We want to be sure that - It is capable of withstand DOS attacks - It has a proper web interface for managing dns (UltraDNS is a bit shaky) - It has proper redundancy (multiple locations) - It has a competitive price - We use around 20 million queries per month on 4 zones with 300 entries I would like to know your experiences about this kind of services. Cheers guys, -- Marc Cluet (marc@lynxconsultants.com) Network and Systems Engineer _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From tal@whatexit.org Mon Jan 18 12:12:28 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0IKCRPj026597 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:12:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-iw0-f180.google.com (mail-iw0-f180.google.com [209.85.223.180]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0IKCObI022253 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:12:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by iwn10 with SMTP id 10so2451470iwn.22 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:12:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.123.41 with SMTP id n41mr1539064ibr.46.1263845539176; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:12:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:12:19 -0800 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: Richard Dakin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:12:28 -0000 (I'm not an official spokesperson, but I know people on the Google Public DNS team) That article is all speculation, done badly. He could have contacted the Google Public DNS team for clarification but he didn't. Here's the story as I see it: Google wants the internet to be successful in the future. I'm sure you can understand why. Slow web experience is bad for the future growth of the internet. Not just a little, a LOT. Google and Microsoft have both published statistics about how faster web experience improves user satisfaction; and how even a 1ms reduction in latency results in noticeable reduction in revenue for web sites. Really. As a result, Google has created a multi-year initiative to speed up the web experience for all users, not just for users of Google's web sites. http://code.google.com/speed/ As part of this initiative Google is rolling out various products, tools, and technologies to improve speed on the web. -- Active participation in the HTML5 effort: letting browsers do more with less dependency on the network -- Chrome: faster Javascript -- Page Speed: tool to help web sites improve their own performance -- SPDY: An enhanced HTTP protocol that will be 2x faster http://tinyurl.com/spdyann -- Google Public DNS: faster DNS Google Public DNS is just one of those roll-outs. If you look at the graphs that PageSpeed produce, a big chunk of the time it takes to load a web page is DNS resolution. It is much worse at certain ISPs. Some ISPs provide painfully slow DNS on under-powered, under-engineered servers. Google Public DNS is an effort to provide faster DNS with better privacy restrictions (logs tossed quickly, no use of logs for advertising stuff, etc.) and some innovations that make it more secure. The fact that the article you linked to speculates that Google Public DNS might have been created for one reason or another erks me because there is absolutely one reason it is created, and Google has announced it: Make the web faster http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/introducing-google-public-dns.html (To be specific: I am erked that the article doesn't say, "Google claims X but I don't believe them and here is why: A, B, C." It says "we don't know why Google is doing this, let me speculate A, B, C.". The former is responsible journalism. The latter is... I'll be polite and say "erksome") To make people confident about the privacy issues, google has spelled out with painstaking detail how the logs are treated: http://code.google.com/speed/public-dns/privacy.html (I can't remember any other company every spelling things out so technically) Should you use Google Public DNS? If it isn't faster, don't use it. That would defeat the purpose of the "make the web faster" initiative. If you still have privacy concerns, same thing. (though know that the Google privacy policy is better than what my ISP publishes, and is better than what I provided to users at my last company because I didn't have a policy there). If you need filtering or features that providers give or if (due to network topology or better code) their service is faster, please use them. However, if it makes your life better please use it. I've been using it since before it was announced and I find it very reliable and fast. In summary: Google Public DNS is part of a larger effort to provide faster web service for all web sites: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/06/lets-make-web-faster.html Google Public DNS is just plain DNS with no filtering or other enhancements that UltraDNS and OpenDNS provide. Full info is here: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/introducing-google-public-dns.html Privacy policy: http://code.google.com/speed/public-dns/privacy.html Google Public DNS is not always the fastest, but there are benchmarks you can try yourself: http://code.google.com/p/namebench/ Tom Limoncelli (not speaking for my employer) tlim@google.com or http://everythingsysadmin.com P.S. I'm not sure if "erksome" is spelled right. From shrdlu@deaddrop.org Mon Jan 18 12:37:16 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0IKbGTa027191 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:37:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shrdlu@deaddrop.org) Received: from relay03.pair.com (relay03.pair.com [209.68.5.17]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id o0IKbCRS022717 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:37:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5151 invoked by uid 0); 18 Jan 2010 20:30:32 -0000 Received: from 66.119.212.42 (HELO ?66.119.212.42?) (66.119.212.42) by relay03.pair.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2010 20:30:32 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 66.119.212.42 Message-ID: <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:28:27 -0800 From: Shrdlu Organization: dig @localhost TXT CHAOS version.bind User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.11) Gecko/20050728 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=3% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:37:16 -0000 Tom Limoncelli wrote: > P.S. I'm not sure if "erksome" is spelled right. It's irksome. As an amusement, let me tell you my current favorite spell checker. I type a word into google, slowly, and often I see a correct spelling before I'm through typing. If note, the search will have a "perhaps you really meant?" kind of suggestion at the top (as you know). Yep. I use der goog to spell check. -- "They had discovered Mr. Slippery's True Name and it was Roger Andrew Pollack TIN/SSAN 0959-34-2861, and no amount of evasion, tricky programming, or robot sources could ever again protect him from them." True Names, Vernor Vinge From djmitche@gmail.com Mon Jan 18 12:46:39 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0IKkdu9027567 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:46:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djmitche@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.157]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0IKkZDW022952 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:46:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e21so54524fga.10 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:46:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=p80IZHD1bCMSpHtU/MJDLwSSF8nDks5H2mpCZJE1svY=; b=vBBkLDzD3KOv2D7+2WAuCMnxv5ylvO+UroF+MUfIa2QMBaZ7ou2fALYaVlUs6mXhYP 0K0yxKzv4bj+CMicuk4o/9NuVrLujE+MuDrzRrcVrUbmZlMP6ssSYZWoT31YCK8NK53A B1DhWT/GSTm+Y8KGDSRgDEwCgPHLmsOc7AKak= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=cINh8/beF64K3BAlHwIruX27FfoIqNlaeD2mj70rV2ShgJJU/C0XcZYIerE63W/0TR gaOSpdY1jST0y2/hNNUz9/CqRLZ7QL/0r8tYql20o1CuAqVumQzVW9zRM7AolB5Jpzwv ED1VXYFbXfoIhVRiSL+LXiGeCd1dnJBfit0yA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: djmitche@gmail.com Received: by 10.87.64.6 with SMTP id r6mr8510304fgk.19.1263847594513; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:46:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:46:34 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 412af4ba853dd481 Message-ID: <42338fbf1001181246g36e974chb50cff921e6f1d23@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dustin J. Mitchell" To: Shrdlu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:46:39 -0000 On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Shrdlu wrote: > As an amusement, let me tell you my current favorite spell checker. I type a > word into google, slowly, and often I see a correct spelling before I'm > through typing. If note, the search will have a "perhaps you really meant?" > kind of suggestion at the top (as you know). Yep. I use der goog to spell > check. Did you try checking "erksome"? Google doesn't offer me any suggestions, and finds lots of hits with the misspelling. Yep, teh internetz r mkng us stoopidr. ;) Sorry to be OT.. Dustin -- Open Source Storage Engineer http://www.zmanda.com From papilion@hypergeometric.com Mon Jan 18 13:04:50 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0IL4n4o028003 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:04:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from papilion@hypergeometric.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f197.google.com (mail-pz0-f197.google.com [209.85.222.197]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0IL4ksr023288 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:04:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by pzk35 with SMTP id 35so2637457pzk.22 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:04:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: papilion@hypergeometric.com Received: by 10.143.21.36 with SMTP id y36mr2266930wfi.160.1263848679116; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:04:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:04:39 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5764eaa5ca0617ea Message-ID: From: geoffrey papilion To: Marc Cluet Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0IL4n4o028003 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:04:50 -0000 At $WORK we use UltraDNS, and we've been bitten a few times by a couple of DDoS directed at various geographies. We've been talking lately about what we want to do after the 12/23 DDoS that killed their west coast datacenters. We're still waiting for the official explanation as to why this took so long to recover from. I suspect they wanted to isolate the outage to one geography. At my previous job I did a quick rundown of competitors, and there wasn't much out there. We wanted the geoDNS features, and the health tests etc.. UltraDNS was both the cheapest and easiest to get going. I believe Akamai is still a competitor(and likely much better), but I suspect it will make ultraDNS look cheap. //geoff On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 9:36 AM, Marc Cluet wrote: > Hello list members, > > I have a customer right now that is using UltraDNS as their DNS provider for just one reason, outsourcing DNS queries and being able to withstand a good amount of queries (around 20 million per month) and have a redundant enough platform at affordable prices, UltraDNS is covering our options quite well technically but their prices are high, that's why we're looking for alternatives. > > We want to be sure that > - It is capable of withstand DOS attacks > - It has a proper web interface for managing dns (UltraDNS is a bit shaky) > - It has proper redundancy (multiple locations) > - It has a competitive price > - We use around 20 million queries per month on 4 zones with 300 entries > > I would like to know your experiences about this kind of services. > > Cheers guys, > > -- > Marc Cluet (marc@lynxconsultants.com) > Network and Systems Engineer > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From allbery@ece.cmu.edu Mon Jan 18 13:09:14 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0IL9Ev1028151 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:09:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu (BACHE.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.129.23]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0IL9BiU023362 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:09:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mress.kf8nh.com (static-72-77-17-40.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net [72.77.17.40]) (Authenticated sender: allbery@ECE.CMU.EDU) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AEF4B8; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:09:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <906A7DA5-3353-44BA-8419-04CA1442D8B7@ece.cmu.edu> From: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" To: Shrdlu In-Reply-To: <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-240--73586940" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:08:58 -0500 References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.0 (v56) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:09:15 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-240--73586940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Jan 18, 2010, at 15:28 , Shrdlu wrote: > As an amusement, let me tell you my current favorite spell checker. > I type a word into google, slowly, and often I see a correct > spelling before I'm through typing. If note, the search will have a > "perhaps you really meant?" kind of suggestion at the top (as you > know). Yep. I use der goog to spell check. This only works when a majority of people spell the word correctly.... -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH --Apple-Mail-240--73586940 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAktUzfQACgkQIn7hlCsL25UvoQCgy2n94G8eVzXtfykGSqvYfaF8 SbwAoMv5S/nn5jF3XACBi+WGRP4x9yKZ =ez6H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-240--73586940-- From tytso@thunk.org Mon Jan 18 13:10:04 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0ILA3G5028190 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:10:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tytso@thunk.org) Received: from thunker.thunk.org (thunk.org [69.25.196.29]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0ILA09i023399 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:10:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from root (helo=closure.thunk.org) by thunker.thunk.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.50 #1 (Debian)) id 1NWyr9-0006yJ-EU; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:09:51 -0500 Received: from tytso by closure.thunk.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NWyr3-0000jc-Ck; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:09:45 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:09:45 -0500 From: tytso@mit.edu To: Tom Limoncelli Message-ID: <20100118210945.GA2640@thunk.org> References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: tytso@thunk.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on thunker.thunk.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=94% Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:10:04 -0000 On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:12:19PM -0800, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > If you look at the graphs that PageSpeed produce, a big chunk of the > time it takes to load a web page is DNS resolution. It is much worse > at certain ISPs. Some ISPs provide painfully slow DNS on > under-powered, under-engineered servers. Google Public DNS is an > effort to provide faster DNS with better privacy restrictions (logs > tossed quickly, no use of logs for advertising stuff, etc.) and some > innovations that make it more secure. I really came to understand, at a gut level, why the Public DNS was launched when I came out to the Bay Area at the beginning of the year for my new employee orientation at Google, and was put up at some corporate-owned apartments in Mountain View. The apartment had a local internet service, without any nasty hotel captive portal system in the way --- but the DNS resolution speed was **b*a*d**. As in, seconds, and sometimes DNS queries would be lost entirely. I had never seen such a lousy DNS service before; my internet is provided by the same corporation entity in Boston, and it works fine there. But in Mountain View, the DNS was so bad it was practically unusable. Once I configured my DHCP client to hard-code the use of 8.8.8.8, I could browse the web again. So if this kind of experience is common with consumers (and this cable provider provides service for a huge percentage of consumers in the States), I can definitely understand why Google would be interested in rolling out a competently run DNS service, since the more people use the web, the more Google tends to make money. Not speaking for my (new) employer, either. :-) - Ted From allbery@ece.cmu.edu Mon Jan 18 13:10:31 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0ILAVgG028214 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:10:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu (BACHE.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.129.23]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0ILASmf023426 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:10:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mress.kf8nh.com (static-72-77-17-40.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net [72.77.17.40]) (Authenticated sender: allbery@ECE.CMU.EDU) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558C7C2; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:10:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: From: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" To: "Dustin J. Mitchell" In-Reply-To: <42338fbf1001181246g36e974chb50cff921e6f1d23@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-241--73500396" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:10:24 -0500 References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> <42338fbf1001181246g36e974chb50cff921e6f1d23@mail.gmail.com> X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.0 (v56) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:10:31 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-241--73500396 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Jan 18, 2010, at 15:46 , Dustin J. Mitchell wrote: > On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Shrdlu wrote: >> As an amusement, let me tell you my current favorite spell checker. >> I type a >> word into google, slowly, and often I see a correct spelling before >> I'm >> through typing. If note, the search will have a "perhaps you really >> meant?" >> kind of suggestion at the top (as you know). Yep. I use der goog to >> spell >> check. > > Did you try checking "erksome"? Google doesn't offer me any > suggestions, and finds lots of hits with the misspelling. Yep, teh > internetz r mkng us stoopidr. ;) Misspellings of "bizarre" also tend to be more popular than the correct spelling. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH --Apple-Mail-241--73500396 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAktUzkAACgkQIn7hlCsL25Xf7wCgtlxpvXoHrX1ZdXlqfcvu54dy /WEAn1vvSYpX79nWAHddu/014hKnxyEl =s5v3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-241--73500396-- From shrdlu@deaddrop.org Mon Jan 18 14:04:19 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0IM4IWf029303 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:04:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shrdlu@deaddrop.org) Received: from relay03.pair.com (relay03.pair.com [209.68.5.17]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id o0IM4FX4024445 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 61349 invoked by uid 0); 18 Jan 2010 22:04:14 -0000 Received: from 66.119.212.42 (HELO ?66.119.212.42?) (66.119.212.42) by relay03.pair.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2010 22:04:14 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 66.119.212.42 Message-ID: <4B54DA62.7020706@deaddrop.org> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:02:10 -0800 From: Shrdlu Organization: dig @localhost TXT CHAOS version.bind User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.11) Gecko/20050728 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> <906A7DA5-3353-44BA-8419-04CA1442D8B7@ece.cmu.edu> In-Reply-To: <906A7DA5-3353-44BA-8419-04CA1442D8B7@ece.cmu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=3% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:04:19 -0000 Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: > On Jan 18, 2010, at 15:28 , Shrdlu wrote: > >> As an amusement, let me tell you my current favorite spell checker. I >> type a word into google, slowly, and often I see a correct spelling >> before I'm through typing. If note, the search will have a "perhaps >> you really meant?" kind of suggestion at the top (as you know). Yep. >> I use der goog to spell check. > This only works when a majority of people spell the word correctly.... Oh dear. I should have been more clear. Please note that I said I often see a "correct spelling" and should have added that I recognize the correct one when I'm reminded of it. I also have spell check turned on, but it doesn't catch the typographical errors such as the above, where I say "If note" instead of "If not" (dangit). Someone else suggested that typing "erksome" did not bring up "irksome" so I checked. For me, it does, and there are no other words suggested excepting "irksome" and phrases with irksome in it, once I have type to the "o" in the word. -- "They had discovered Mr. Slippery's True Name and it was Roger Andrew Pollack TIN/SSAN 0959-34-2861, and no amount of evasion, tricky programming, or robot sources could ever again protect him from them." True Names, Vernor Vinge From tal@whatexit.org Mon Jan 18 16:07:21 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0J07Kpk031749 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:07:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-iw0-f180.google.com (mail-iw0-f180.google.com [209.85.223.180]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0J07HC7026386 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:07:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by iwn10 with SMTP id 10so2594865iwn.22 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:07:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.59.7 with SMTP id j7mr953383ibh.12.1263859632176; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:07:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:07:12 -0800 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91001181607m4c05aa34y2ad554cb5eed19dc@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: Richard Dakin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0J07Kpk031749 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:07:22 -0000 On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:12 PM, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > Google wants the internet to be successful in the future.  I'm sure > you can understand why.  Slow web experience is bad for the future > growth of the internet. Not just a little, a LOT. Google and Microsoft > have both published statistics about how faster web experience > improves user satisfaction; and how even a 1ms reduction in latency > results in noticeable reduction in revenue for web sites.  Really. Correction... 1ms /worsening/ in latency results in noticeable reduction in revenue for web sites. Tom From marc@lynxconsultants.com Mon Jan 18 16:29:16 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0J0TGiv032135 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:29:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marc@lynxconsultants.com) Received: from mx.iwith.org (mx.iwith.org [212.203.71.220]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0J0TCpS026724 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:29:15 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (mx.iwith.org: authenticated connection) receiver=mx.iwith.org; client-ip=94.194.204.136; helo=lichtenberg-wifi.localnet; envelope-from=marc@lynxconsultants.com; x-software=spfmilter 0.97 http://www.acme.com/software/spfmilter/ with libspf2-1.0.0; Received: from lichtenberg-wifi.localnet (94-194-204-136.zone8.bethere.co.uk [94.194.204.136]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.iwith.org (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0J0T4RO017850 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:29:06 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Marc Cluet In-Reply-To: <20100118161814.H922@escape.org> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:29:02 +0000 Message-Id: <039D7E1A-5C35-47FD-8BAB-6B2883D44D90@lynxconsultants.com> References: <20100118161814.H922@escape.org> To: Marco Nicosia X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.2 at front3 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.8 required=3.0 tests=AWL,LOCAL_AUTH_RCVD, PRICES_ARE_AFFORDABLE, RDNS_DYNAMIC shortcircuit=no autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on front3.iwith.org X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0J0TGiv032135 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:29:17 -0000 That's the kind of information I was looking for, thank you very much for the tip! On Jan 19, 2010, at 00:18 , Marco Nicosia wrote: > I'm surprised; I just assumed that by now that someone would have > mentioned that Dyn.com is a competitor to UltraDNS. They host > twitter, among others. > > -- Marco N. > > Marc Cluet (marc@lynxconsultants.com) wrote: >> Hello list members, >> >> I have a customer right now that is using UltraDNS as their DNS provider for just one reason, outsourcing DNS queries and being able to withstand a good amount of queries (around 20 million per month) and have a redundant enough platform at affordable prices, UltraDNS is covering our options quite well technically but their prices are high, that's why we're looking for alternatives. >> >> We want to be sure that >> - It is capable of withstand DOS attacks >> - It has a proper web interface for managing dns (UltraDNS is a bit shaky) >> - It has proper redundancy (multiple locations) >> - It has a competitive price >> - We use around 20 million queries per month on 4 zones with 300 entries >> >> I would like to know your experiences about this kind of services. >> >> Cheers guys, >> >> -- >> Marc Cluet (marc@lynxconsultants.com) >> Network and Systems Engineer >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > _______________________________________________________________________ > Marco E. Nicosia | http://www.escape.org/~marco/ | marco@escape.org -- Marc Cluet (marc@lynxconsultants.com) Network and Systems Engineer From marco@server.escape.org Mon Jan 18 16:29:38 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0J0TcMw032146 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:29:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marco@server.escape.org) Received: from server.escape.org (adsl-63-197-76-200.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.197.76.200]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0J0TZcx026738 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.escape.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by server.escape.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o0J0IEhX006950; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:18:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marco@server.escape.org) Received: (from marco@localhost) by server.escape.org (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id o0J0IEcQ006949; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:18:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marco) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:18:14 -0800 From: Marco Nicosia To: Marc Cluet Message-ID: <20100118161814.H922@escape.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from marc@lynxconsultants.com on Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 05:36:39PM +0000 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:29:38 -0000 I'm surprised; I just assumed that by now that someone would have mentioned that Dyn.com is a competitor to UltraDNS. They host twitter, among others. -- Marco N. Marc Cluet (marc@lynxconsultants.com) wrote: > Hello list members, > > I have a customer right now that is using UltraDNS as their DNS provider for just one reason, outsourcing DNS queries and being able to withstand a good amount of queries (around 20 million per month) and have a redundant enough platform at affordable prices, UltraDNS is covering our options quite well technically but their prices are high, that's why we're looking for alternatives. > > We want to be sure that > - It is capable of withstand DOS attacks > - It has a proper web interface for managing dns (UltraDNS is a bit shaky) > - It has proper redundancy (multiple locations) > - It has a competitive price > - We use around 20 million queries per month on 4 zones with 300 entries > > I would like to know your experiences about this kind of services. > > Cheers guys, > > -- > Marc Cluet (marc@lynxconsultants.com) > Network and Systems Engineer > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members _______________________________________________________________________ Marco E. Nicosia | http://www.escape.org/~marco/ | marco@escape.org From btv1==6358e79326e==guy@crossflight.co.uk Tue Jan 19 01:48:34 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0J9mY6W044200 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:48:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from btv1==6358e79326e==guy@crossflight.co.uk) Received: from bc30o.crossflight.co.uk (bc30o.crossflight.co.uk [195.172.72.196]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0J9mUCi014398 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:48:33 -0800 (PST) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1263894503-752a00610000-ALoPZf X-Barracuda-URL: http://195.172.72.196:8000/cgi-bin/mark.cgi Received: from vsmtpe.crossflight.co.uk (vsmtpe.crossflight.co.uk [195.172.72.209]) by bc30o.crossflight.co.uk (Spam & Virus Firewall) with ESMTP id 8C361144822 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:48:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vsmtpe.crossflight.co.uk (vsmtpe.crossflight.co.uk [195.172.72.209]) by bc30o.crossflight.co.uk with ESMTP id 9vfKjLPvrLNTgT7Y for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:48:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [172.16.72.7] (northropi.crossflight.co.uk [172.16.72.7]) by vsmtpe.crossflight.co.uk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0J9mNHk033989; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:48:23 GMT (envelope-from guy@crossflight.co.uk) Message-ID: <4B557FE6.40202@crossflight.co.uk> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:48:22 +0000 From: Guy Dawson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091204 Thunderbird/3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> <906A7DA5-3353-44BA-8419-04CA1442D8B7@ece.cmu.edu> In-Reply-To: <906A7DA5-3353-44BA-8419-04CA1442D8B7@ece.cmu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Barracuda-Connect: vsmtpe.crossflight.co.uk[195.172.72.209] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1263894503 X-Barracuda-Virus-Scanned: by Barracuda Spam & Virus Firewall at crossflight.co.uk X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: -1002.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=-1002.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=1000.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:48:34 -0000 On 18/01/2010 21:08, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: > This only works when a majority of people spell the word correctly.... Which over time is how we define the correct spelling. Now time for colourful language? Guy -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Guy Dawson I.T. Systems Manager Crossflight Ltd guy@crossflight.co.uk 07973 797819 01753 776104 ******************************************************************* This message contains the views and opinions of a Crossflight Limited employee and at this stage are in no way a direct representation of Crossflight Limited. Crossflight Limited is an international express courier, mailing and logistics service provider. This communication and any attachments are confidential and may be protected from disclosure. We endorse no advice or opinion contained in this communication that is not the subject of a contract between the recipient and ourselves. If you have received it in error please notify us immediately and note that any storage, use or disclosure is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Those communicating with us by electronic mail will be deemed to have accepted the risks associated with interception, amendment, loss and late or incomplete delivery. They will also be deemed to have consented to our intercepting and monitoring such communications. This footnote also confirms that this message has been checked for the presence of computer viruses. We strongly recommend that you check this email with your own virus software as Crossflight Limited will not be held responsible for any damage caused by viruses as a result of opening this email. ******************************************************************* From hyc@symas.com Tue Jan 19 03:02:39 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0JB2cQS045806 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:02:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hyc@symas.com) Received: from lirone.symas.net (lirone.symas.net [64.71.152.235]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0JB2aS9016017 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:02:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from cpe-76-94-188-212.socal.res.rr.com ([76.94.188.212] helo=[192.168.1.21]) by lirone.symas.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NXBr0-000152-Pr; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:02:34 -0800 Message-ID: <4B55915A.6040800@symas.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:02:50 -0800 From: Howard Chu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; rv:1.9.3a1pre) Gecko/20100115 SeaMonkey/2.0a1pre Firefox/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Guy Dawson References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> <906A7DA5-3353-44BA-8419-04CA1442D8B7@ece.cmu.edu> <4B557FE6.40202@crossflight.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4B557FE6.40202@crossflight.co.uk> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] spelling (was: Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:02:39 -0000 Guy Dawson wrote: > On 18/01/2010 21:08, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: > >> This only works when a majority of people spell the word correctly.... > > Which over time is how we define the correct spelling. Not so sure about that. Ever since the printing press, spelling has gotten a lot more uniform. And ever since King James, there's been an authoritative spelling for most things, instead of the mostly ad hoc writing that came before. Today, with the technology to disseminate text exactly, broadly, and reliably retrieve it, it's even easier to codify an authoritative version. Sometimes right/wrong are pretty arbitrary, but overall the distinction has to be observed. Abdicating your language to whatever google says is the most popular is just high-tech mob rule. Every population fits under a bell curve; just because a majority of the population says "this is so" doesn't make them right. It's too bad our society is so heavily oriented toward the least common denominator. Too much focus on profit, and there's no profit in marketing toward the fringe, and it's too hard to try to educate the target audience to push more of them into the upper half of the bell. The inevitable result: everybody gets dumber... > Now time for colourful language? -- -- Howard Chu CTO, Symas Corp. http://www.symas.com Director, Highland Sun http://highlandsun.com/hyc/ Chief Architect, OpenLDAP http://www.openldap.org/project/ From jlp+sage@peterson.ath.cx Tue Jan 19 07:37:56 2010 Received: from web1.premiervanlines.com (web1.premiervanlines.com [68.142.145.202]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0JFbumM052988 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:37:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlp+sage@peterson.ath.cx) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by web1.premiervanlines.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD03D8F806 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:37:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from web1.premiervanlines.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (web1.premiervanlines.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hdZklcvIi8F1 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:37:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from corona (gateway.FREECAKENETWORKS.COM [67.106.37.5]) by web1.premiervanlines.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 922078F7F2 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:37:35 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:37:46 -0700 From: "Jan L. Peterson" To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Message-ID: <20100119083746.68455e74@corona> In-Reply-To: <4B55915A.6040800@symas.com> References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> <906A7DA5-3353-44BA-8419-04CA1442D8B7@ece.cmu.edu> <4B557FE6.40202@crossflight.co.uk> <4B55915A.6040800@symas.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.3 (GTK+ 2.18.3; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] spelling (was: Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:37:56 -0000 On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:02:50 -0800 Howard Chu wrote: > Guy Dawson wrote: > > On 18/01/2010 21:08, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: > > Now time for colourful language? Mark Twain had the definitive answer on this in his short essay on the improvement of English spelling. It's available in the fortune database, but I'll copy it here so everyone doesn't have to go look up how to retrieve a specific fortune from the fortune database :-) A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling by Mark Twain For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all. Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli. Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld. -jan- -- Jan L. Peterson http://www.peterson-tech.com/~jlp/ From John.Miller@oregonmetro.gov Tue Jan 19 07:51:20 2010 Received: from mx1.metro-region.org (mx1.oregonmetro.gov [198.236.242.33]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0JFpKwF053356 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:51:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from John.Miller@oregonmetro.gov) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,303,1262592000"; d="scan'208";a="120723526" Received: from unknown (HELO mex.metro-region.org) ([192.168.10.214]) by ironport1.metro-region.org with ESMTP; 19 Jan 2010 07:51:20 -0800 Received: from MEX.metro-region.org ([192.168.10.214]) by mex ([192.168.10.214]) with mapi; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:51:19 -0800 From: John Miller To: "Jan L. Peterson" Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:51:12 -0800 Thread-Topic: [SAGE] spelling (was: Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS) Thread-Index: AcqZHz1S2vqj0H4eRhKC3UJjkO0hdw== Message-ID: References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> <906A7DA5-3353-44BA-8419-04CA1442D8B7@ece.cmu.edu> <4B557FE6.40202@crossflight.co.uk> <4B55915A.6040800@symas.com> <20100119083746.68455e74@corona> In-Reply-To: <20100119083746.68455e74@corona> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0JFpKwF053356 Cc: "sage-members@mailman.sage.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] spelling (was: Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:51:21 -0000 LOL! JoHN MiLLeR Sent from iPhone Beware of typos and unnoticed auto "corrections"! On Jan 19, 2010, at 7:44 AM, "Jan L. Peterson" wrote: > On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:02:50 -0800 > Howard Chu wrote: >> Guy Dawson wrote: >>> On 18/01/2010 21:08, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: >>> Now time for colourful language? > > Mark Twain had the definitive answer on this in his short essay on the > improvement of English spelling. It's available in the fortune > database, but I'll copy it here so everyone doesn't have to go look up > how to retrieve a specific fortune from the fortune database :-) > > A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling > by Mark Twain > > For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped > to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer > be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained > would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 > might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the > same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with > "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all. > Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear > with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 > or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. > Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi > ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the > maindz > ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli. > Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud > hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld. > > -jan- > -- > Jan L. Peterson > http://www.peterson-tech.com/~jlp/ > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From rskiadmin@chycoski.com Tue Jan 19 07:55:35 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0JFtZsY053471 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:55:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rskiadmin@chycoski.com) Received: from adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.122.242.225]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0JFtWC2022474 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:55:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.72.2] (wizfast.rski.net [192.168.72.2]) by adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o0JFtMAs008333; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:55:22 -0800 Message-ID: <4B55D5EA.3070502@chycoski.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:55:22 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Howard Chu References: <7d49b3d91001181212q22241addj4fb07d8885764774@mail.gmail.com> <4B54C46B.1090500@deaddrop.org> <906A7DA5-3353-44BA-8419-04CA1442D8B7@ece.cmu.edu> <4B557FE6.40202@crossflight.co.uk> <4B55915A.6040800@symas.com> In-Reply-To: <4B55915A.6040800@symas.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] spelling X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:55:36 -0000 Some words do get spelling changes (or accepted variations in spelling) over time, determined by public usage. This is also how new words get added to the language. But I agree that just because a horde of people on Google come up with a new variation, that doesn't make it a valid, new variation. Then there was that group of people in this country (with Mr. Webster as the chief promulgator) who decided that a whole range of words would get an "American" spelling variation - hence colour/color, centre/center, etc. So spelling also changes by fiat. :-) The concept of "correct spelling" is a relatively new one. It didn't come about with the creation of the printing press, but more with the Samuel Johnson's creation of the dictionary. Once there was some sort of definitive reference, it was held up as "the standard" and scholars and teachers started requiring students to conform. The King James bible had many variations between 1611 and 1769, when the most common version that we see these days was first printed. The common spellings for the 8000-ought words were not immutable over that time. - Richard Howard Chu wrote: > Guy Dawson wrote: > >> On 18/01/2010 21:08, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: >> >> >>> This only works when a majority of people spell the word correctly.... >>> >> Which over time is how we define the correct spelling. >> > > Not so sure about that. Ever since the printing press, spelling has gotten a > lot more uniform. And ever since King James, there's been an authoritative > spelling for most things, instead of the mostly ad hoc writing that came > before. Today, with the technology to disseminate text exactly, broadly, and > reliably retrieve it, it's even easier to codify an authoritative version. > > Sometimes right/wrong are pretty arbitrary, but overall the distinction has to > be observed. Abdicating your language to whatever google says is the most > popular is just high-tech mob rule. Every population fits under a bell curve; > just because a majority of the population says "this is so" doesn't make them > right. > > It's too bad our society is so heavily oriented toward the least common > denominator. Too much focus on profit, and there's no profit in marketing > toward the fringe, and it's too hard to try to educate the target audience to > push more of them into the upper half of the bell. The inevitable result: > everybody gets dumber... > > >> Now time for colourful language? >> > > From seph@directionless.org Tue Jan 19 09:16:50 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0JHGnXC054989 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:16:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seph@directionless.org) Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0JHGkQJ024751 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:16:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.internal [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B353CCDD44; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:07:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from heartbeat2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:07:33 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=smtpout; bh=puSd3ljJgKPbFOFjMMUyipMcvbE=; b=mo88dnEEMTmB6/pACowLD5Ejd4RdCmKiLgk7XVTo0AR12wKoZkKBN6+Um7XNrjcpn5eyp0COcq7RDXSPXOh+jYBcDqKloAsvYgUfQ2+q4UWooViA7tUdvAVbMs1yTqGTt85ta7s0Rb6ftckAsPtqYJDw7nAW0L9qfN5K5iEfwC0= X-Sasl-enc: I7ZWmaMM64mZ3LY2jI0ZuMd7cZ6qwg+L6d7uoCmkVTFX 1263920852 Received: from bastion.directionless.org (c-24-128-190-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.128.190.204]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4A2B310D3A; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by bastion.directionless.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:07:31 -0500 From: seph To: Marc Cluet References: Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:07:31 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Marc Cluet's message of "Mon, 18 Jan 2010 17:36:39 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110008 (No Gnus v0.8) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=3% Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative DNS providers to UltraDNS X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 17:16:50 -0000 When I looked at this for $LASTJOB, we settled on dnsmadeeasy.com. They're inexpensive, and I believe using anycast (though I haven't checked). But I wasn't running a high volume website then, so my requirements might be different. I'm still kinda annoyed at ultradns for a really spammy and obnoxious ad campaign from a couple years ago. seph Marc Cluet writes: > Hello list members, > > I have a customer right now that is using UltraDNS as their DNS provider for just one reason, outsourcing DNS queries and being able to withstand a good amount of queries (around 20 million per month) and have a redundant enough platform at affordable prices, UltraDNS is covering our options quite well technically but their prices are high, that's why we're looking for alternatives. > > We want to be sure that > - It is capable of withstand DOS attacks > - It has a proper web interface for managing dns (UltraDNS is a bit shaky) > - It has proper redundancy (multiple locations) > - It has a competitive price > - We use around 20 million queries per month on 4 zones with 300 entries > > I would like to know your experiences about this kind of services. > > Cheers guys, > > -- > Marc Cluet (marc@lynxconsultants.com) > Network and Systems Engineer > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From geer@tinho.net Tue Jan 19 18:18:07 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0K2I6M4066507 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 18:18:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from geer@tinho.net) Received: from absinthe.tinho.net (absinthe.tinho.net [166.84.5.228]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0K2I3Um028971 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 18:18:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by absinthe.tinho.net (Postfix, from userid 126) id 15CB533DD0; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:17:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from absinthe.tinho.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by absinthe.tinho.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13D8033D72; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:17:58 -0500 (EST) From: dan@geer.org To: Richard Chycoski In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:55:22 PST." <4B55D5EA.3070502@chycoski.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:17:58 -0500 Sender: geer@tinho.net Message-Id: <20100120021758.15CB533DD0@absinthe.tinho.net> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] spelling X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 02:18:08 -0000 Richard, If you love words, the book Caught in the Web of Words: James Murray and the Oxford English Dictionary is divine, as is the newsletter Verbatim http://www.verbatimmag.com/ My father was a lover of words and could read the Bible in Greek and Latin alike; best gift I ever gave him was a subscription to Verbatim. His life could be summed up in Nehemiah 8:8, which adorns his grave. --dan From dcspaul@ed.ac.uk Wed Jan 20 23:34:56 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0L7YtSo007182 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 23:34:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcspaul@ed.ac.uk) Received: from nougat.ucs.ed.ac.uk (nougat.ucs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.13.205]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0L7YqqC029049 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 23:34:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from lmtp1.ucs.ed.ac.uk (lmtp1.ucs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.149.64]) by nougat.ucs.ed.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id o0L7Youp006836 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:34:50 GMT Received: from [192.168.93.215] (nine3.demon.co.uk [80.177.111.19]) (authenticated bits=0) by lmtp1.ucs.ed.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o0L7Yiwt012163 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:34:50 GMT From: Paul Anderson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:34:45 +0000 Message-Id: <0AA557C8-3F79-4C57-9916-7FBE19A06865@ed.ac.uk> To: SAGE Members List Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Edinburgh-Scanned: at nougat.ucs.ed.ac.uk with MIMEDefang 2.60, Sophie, Sophos Anti-Virus, Clam AntiVirus X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.60 on 129.215.13.205 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.52 on 129.215.149.64 Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=11% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0L7YtSo007182 Subject: [SAGE] Looking for data on virtual machine performance .. X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:34:56 -0000 Hi All ... I have a student working on a project to see if it is possible to predict anything useful about the performance of individual virtual machines in a cluster, using statistical machine learning techniques. This would potentially lead to better algorithms for placing and migrating VMs. So, I'm looking for real data about the performance of clusters of VMs. Things like per-vm cpu load, memory usage and network usage at regular intervals. Does anyone have anything like this that they would be prepared to let us have? Many Thanks Paul Anderson -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From ddulek@fastenal.com Thu Jan 21 06:09:17 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0LE9Gj1015744 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 06:09:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ddulek@fastenal.com) Received: from will.fastenal.com (will.fastenal.com [205.243.112.23]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0LE9DLI017099 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 06:09:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from EXCFE02.Fastenal.com (unknown [172.16.89.32]) by will.fastenal.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 168EB34095; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:51:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from excmb03.fastenal.com ([172.16.104.85]) by EXCFE02.Fastenal.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:51:15 -0600 Received: from 192.168.22.7 ([192.168.22.7]) by ExcMB03.fastenal.com ([172.16.104.85]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.fastenal.com ([172.16.89.32]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:51:15 +0000 Received: from sadmin03 by webmail.fastenal.com; 21 Jan 2010 07:51:15 -0600 From: David Dulek To: Paul Anderson In-Reply-To: <0AA557C8-3F79-4C57-9916-7FBE19A06865@ed.ac.uk> References: <0AA557C8-3F79-4C57-9916-7FBE19A06865@ed.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:51:14 -0600 Message-ID: <1264081874.15983.2.camel@sadmin03> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.1 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jan 2010 13:51:15.0788 (UTC) FILETIME=[CCFA48C0:01CA9AA0] X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: SMEX-8.0.0.1181-6.000.1038-17112.000 X-TM-AS-Result: No--16.793000-8.000000-31 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0LE9Gj1015744 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for data on virtual machine performance .. X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 14:09:18 -0000 There is a commercial product that I really liked that I believe does what you ask. www.akorri.com There product is called BalancePoint. On Thu, 2010-01-21 at 07:34 +0000, Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi All ... > > I have a student working on a project to see if it is possible to predict anything useful > about the performance of individual virtual machines in a cluster, using statistical machine > learning techniques. This would potentially lead to better algorithms for placing and > migrating VMs. > > So, I'm looking for real data about the performance of clusters of VMs. Things like > per-vm cpu load, memory usage and network usage at regular intervals. > > Does anyone have anything like this that they would be prepared to let us have? > > Many Thanks > > Paul Anderson > > -- David Dulek Storage Administration Lead Fastenal Company E-mail: ddulek@fastenal.com Phone: (507) 313-7033 Fax: (507) 453-8333 From richard.dakin@ccci.org Sat Jan 23 10:11:54 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NIBsJb061266 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:11:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from richard.dakin@ccci.org) Received: from mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com (mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com [208.84.65.127]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NIBof5022385 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:11:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (pph40730 [127.0.0.1]) by mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with SMTP id o0NIAXXY025047 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:11:50 -0500 Received: from hart-edge2.ccci.org ([72.159.180.78]) by mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id kf13ek5ts-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:11:50 -0500 Received: from HART-E013V.net.ccci.org (10.10.11.4) by HART-EDGE2.ccci.org (172.16.1.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.393.1; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:11:49 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:11:35 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Tone in text communications Thread-Index: AcqcV3+pwVUzeRkkSImFnzqtzCsnIQ== From: Richard Dakin To: SAGE Members List X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2010-01-23_03:2010-01-20, 2010-01-23, 2010-01-23 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1001230148 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:11:54 -0000 Recently we have been discussing "tone" in emails. Personally I do not think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. Some of my counterparts hold a differing opinion. Perhaps individuals read text and imagine the writer is speaking aloud to them in a certain manner. Seems to me if added expression, emphasis, or emotion were the intent of the writer then they would use the appropriate punctuations. Please use the following sentence as an example and let me know what you think. Does it have tonal qualities? How does it "sound" to you? =20 If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is done using secretive censored fascist dictatorial leadership or treating people like exploitable disposable objectified tasks on your checklist for personal gain, then please do not contact me.=20 From nhruby@gmail.com Sat Jan 23 10:33:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NIXW4e061519 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:33:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nhruby@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iw0-f202.google.com (mail-iw0-f202.google.com [209.85.223.202]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NIXTIA022793 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:33:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by iwn40 with SMTP id 40so1327348iwn.2 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:33:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=44I0/3ztORgY5CxmP8nuem/ilughNFAjw+CmqiwLHuw=; b=IKaDTGe0jMYy6bYSHvi5ww1FX9Lcy9I1xLwSBbaLJDm4O3Ce0lXyEmQoJlS3lq9flv DB889z+CBtQHB9Y6m2wPaWKZlosisBrNVlSAfhzC9/csC3wc/xGfAql5wpHR0NeyOEbi YpqAwuZPC7cegqSOrbiWKPH4KfnHiE9SEs5a8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=cv3ckHeCkC6+9qIpiFhuUVVop1cG98QiHF010yuCMNVUi6Dk8gqGJbAKKLjJ7JcVGv nON2aSPeGQ/bbBezxMklAXetOGIMaTRazkHYZEwD1LGPOk4c9S8+AKCI36YEMgCdo2M9 vxCbL3OAY8kOxzqnKzgMtuOKQQvU3/2qiFTbY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: nhruby@gmail.com Received: by 10.231.144.201 with SMTP id a9mr530718ibv.69.1264271603880; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:33:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:33:23 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4f3d005f4f7fae34 Message-ID: From: Nathan Hruby To: Richard Dakin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:33:33 -0000 On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 12:11 PM, Richard Dakin wrote: > Recently we have been discussing "tone" in emails. Personally I do not > think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. Some of my > counterparts hold a differing opinion. Perhaps individuals read text and > imagine the writer is speaking aloud to them in a certain manner. Seems > to me if added expression, emphasis, or emotion were the intent of the > writer then they would use the appropriate punctuations. Please use the > following sentence as an example and let me know what you think. Does it > have tonal qualities? How does it "sound" to you? > > > > If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is done > using secretive censored fascist dictatorial leadership or treating > people like exploitable disposable objectified tasks on your checklist > for personal gain, then please do not contact me. Tone, I think, has nothing to do with it. The plain words in that statement read as a personal attack to me. They are not professional, they are not polite, and they are not helpful to broaden the discussion on a topic. -n -- ------------------------------------------- nathan hruby metaphysically wrinkle-free ------------------------------------------- From asher.yanich@gmail.com Sat Jan 23 10:33:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NIXihW061528 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:33:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asher.yanich@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f53.google.com (mail-pw0-f53.google.com [209.85.160.53]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NIXfF0022796 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:33:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwi4 with SMTP id 4so1464087pwi.12 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:33:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=3Iqq6KXMnreH63g2dz1H5y1ta2qHjdQHiyGp8ScNKEw=; b=wpgtuor/AxJLFa4khKsPQ/oV12Uc9oMwfeF6tRPTWFsT2wsrUx5WWJgQoo2FTA4+4x 4EcRDzPPv7ijxjSDSRGr0PSpa4tTvbsx6BjT7IQUbRKym0KcgKA82osbh0ua/3HgMRzR Xhj6+SXTBah5CxXlWOa32oBX0NwpUsvFtx3Xk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=Jw4tDOTyg6rjvFpu1xJdhiAny7PBAdNTsgdzLGjM+1nd3fVeMTBhOCbsNQENXL3iwi JRIf1fs7NeMXtbnlTrltKXPE36bk+mXZIiqYC6sVop+88goAk7zQv4s0fIjLyW8IgCnA OXo7y75tEfIHNwav54QfWAWiqYAzzCspzy3EU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.236.3 with SMTP id j3mr3073348wah.130.1264271616169; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:33:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:33:36 -0800 Message-ID: From: Asher Yanich To: Richard Dakin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=15% Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:33:44 -0000 So, there is clearly tone that you can get from email, and some of it comes from the choice of words, connotation, denotation, use of formality, phrasing, declarative statements. There is also the concept of kairos which comes into play when writing as well. I often find that many highly technical people do not end up as successful as you would think they should be due to their inability to communicate well. As to the phrase below, the language is firm, there is no room for discussion, it comes off as defensive, childish and angry. cheers, -asher On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Richard Dakin wrote: > Recently we have been discussing "tone" in emails. Personally I do not > think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. Some of my > counterparts hold a differing opinion. Perhaps individuals read text and > imagine the writer is speaking aloud to them in a certain manner. Seems > to me if added expression, emphasis, or emotion were the intent of the > writer then they would use the appropriate punctuations. Please use the > following sentence as an example and let me know what you think. Does it > have tonal qualities? How does it "sound" to you? > > > > If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is done > using secretive censored fascist dictatorial leadership or treating > people like exploitable disposable objectified tasks on your checklist > for personal gain, then please do not contact me. > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From cat@reptiles.org Sat Jan 23 10:38:51 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NIcpOl061626 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:38:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cat@reptiles.org) Received: from mailbox.reptiles.org (rootgecko.reptiles.org@[198.96.210.227]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NIcmuT023319 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:38:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from (invalid client hostname: the DNS A record for the hostname 'www.reptiles.ca' does not match the address [198.96.210.227])www.reptiles.ca ([198.96.210.227] port=58775) by mailbox.reptiles.org([198.96.210.227] port=25) via TCP with esmtp (3733 bytes) (sender: ) (ident using UNIX) id for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:38:46 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.121 2005-Nov-17 #4 built 2006-Nov-28) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:38:45 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Richard Dakin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:38:52 -0000 On Sat, 23 Jan 2010, Richard Dakin wrote: > Recently we have been discussing "tone" in emails. Personally I do not > think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. Some of my > counterparts hold a differing opinion. Perhaps individuals read text and > imagine the writer is speaking aloud to them in a certain manner. Seems > to me if added expression, emphasis, or emotion were the intent of the > writer then they would use the appropriate punctuations. Please use the > following sentence as an example and let me know what you think. Does it > have tonal qualities? How does it "sound" to you? I think that you're falling into one of the common geek fallacies, which can be summarized as: "What I said was correct, why are people upset?" Whether we like it or not, social grease matters, and it's important to be aware of how your communication style is understood and received by others. Moving on to you question, as somebody that doesn't usually hear voices when reading, I can't say that I consider tone to be a function of how a given sentence would sound when read out loud. In email, tone is a function of word choice and context first, with punctuation (correct, incorrect or lacking) having more of an effect on legibility and emphasis. In fact, I'd have to say that you're decidedly mistaken in thinking that tone isn't conveyed by choice of words. Your sample below is an excellent example of using word choice to convey tone. > If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is done > using secretive censored fascist dictatorial leadership or treating > people like exploitable disposable objectified tasks on your checklist > for personal gain, then please do not contact me. To be more specific, this example uses a number of 'hot button' words (secretive, censored, fascist, dictatorial, exploitable, disposable, objectified), which typically trigger a knee-jerk (and usually negative, particularly in the contexts above) reaction. The following sentence conveys similar information with fewer hot button words, and doubtless has a different (although still somewhat negative) tone... "If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is mysterious and challenging, please do not contact me." If you then turned the sentence around, to something like: "Please contact me if you're interested in IT risk mitigation services using well-researched, practiced and routinely reviewed methodologies" You've got yet another similar sentence with a completely different (and more positive) tone. cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From pc@pcable.net Sat Jan 23 10:58:07 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NIw6GC061967 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:58:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pc@pcable.net) Received: from mail-yw0-f173.google.com (mail-yw0-f173.google.com [209.85.211.173]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NIw3Wv023848 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:58:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by ywh3 with SMTP id 3so1866018ywh.22 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:57:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.91.122.9 with SMTP id z9mr2209227agm.20.1264273078146; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:57:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:57:58 -0500 Message-ID: <1d30d2691001231057v2e57e9c5pe1ed345084869161@mail.gmail.com> From: Patrick Cable To: Richard Dakin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:58:07 -0000 > Recently we have been discussing "tone" in emails. Personally I do not > think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. Some of my > counterparts hold a differing opinion. This kind of stuff fascinates me. What are their arguments for believing that emails have tone? What are your responses to these arguments? > Perhaps individuals read text and > imagine the writer is speaking aloud to them in a certain manner. Seems > to me if added expression, emphasis, or emotion were the intent of the > writer then they would use the appropriate punctuations. What about context? What about word choice? We write for an audience, and we change what we write based on what we think about our audience. What I choose to write or say to a friend, will be different than what I choose to write or say to a coworker, and will be different than what i choose to write or say to my mom, or a significant other... > Does it have tonal qualities? How does it "sound" to you? To me, it absolutely does. The choice of words, the choice of phrasing ("secretive censored fascist dictatorial leadership," "exploitable disposable objectified tasks") interests me in that it would seem that the writer is just writing it to... write it; to put it out there. It's completely un-constructive. If I received something like this, I would probably show it to my coworkers (I might print it out and put it up in my small cube area), write the other party off as being an idiot, and then delete it from my inbox. Alternatively, if the writer wanted to make an actual impact and wrote something constructive... that changes everything. If I got an email with actual concrete examples of a problem... I'd want to work with that person and engage my team in a discussion, at the very least to evaluate what the differences are between writer and reader. Nathan has a great point, it does nothing to "broaden the discussion on a topic." Not that all communication needs to, but the writer has clearly drawn a line in the sand. - This is why my brain (almost literally) explodes when I heard classmates in undergrad say "Well, why do we have to take stuff like english and technical communications? It doesn't matter! It's not relevant!" It absolutely does matter. And I'd argue that knowing these skills makes someone that much more valuable to $employer. -pc From levins@westnet.com Sat Jan 23 11:05:43 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NJ5hsd062117 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:05:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from levins@westnet.com) Received: from westnet.com (root@westnet.com [216.187.52.2]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NJ5eQW024014 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:05:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from westnet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id o0NJ5dtE023738 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:05:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (levins@localhost) by westnet.com (8.14.0/8.13.2/Submit) with ESMTP id o0NJ5dO7023734 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:05:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:05:39 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Levin To: SAGE Members List In-Reply-To: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> Message-ID: References: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:05:44 -0000 On Sat, 23 Jan 2010, Cat Okita wrote: >> If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is done >> using secretive censored fascist dictatorial leadership or treating >> people like exploitable disposable objectified tasks on your checklist >> for personal gain, then please do not contact me. > > > "If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is > mysterious and challenging, please do not contact me." > > If you then turned the sentence around, to something like: > > "Please contact me if you're interested in IT risk mitigation > services using well-researched, practiced and routinely > reviewed methodologies" > > You've got yet another similar sentence with a completely different (and > more positive) tone. Sadly, too many people these days tend to consider their opinions as clear and inarguable fact, and present it that way. Also, I see people all too often unable to understand or sympathise with the opposing viewpoint, and using rhetoric to cement their point. It's so depressing. I agree with the others that the language used in the original example is loaded language and conveys an angry attitude. The original writer of the line in question would have been better off saying something to the effect of: "I find it difficult to discuss IT risk mitigation with people who believe in using strong-handed tactics or rudely treating people as objects, and I've experience a lot of that lately, so I try to avoid discussions that head in that direction. I would be happy to discuss the subject in terms of well-researched, practiced and routinely-reviewed methodologies." Now, I'm not a particularly politically-correct person, and believe in using clear, plain language when possible to convey feelings for others to understand. That can get me in trouble, but the key (and difficult) part is doing so without being rude and condescending. -Adam Ps: As a funny and related aside, I originally wrote "The original speaker" as opposed to "The original writer" above. It's so easy to fall into the trap of using email as a conversation instead of written correspondence, and I think that's where some of the complexity of this discussion arises. From phred@frii.com Sat Jan 23 11:13:58 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NJDw6s062261 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:13:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phred@frii.com) Received: from smtp01.frii.com (smtp01.frii.com [216.17.135.167]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NJDtl4024325 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:13:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from vw.elizabeth.street (phred.dsl.frii.net [216.17.139.237]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp01.frii.com (FRII) with ESMTP id 3AD5BEA768; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:53:48 -0700 (MST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ray Frush In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:53:47 -0700 Message-Id: <5511A6FC-E691-4187-81AD-C8987604F57E@frii.com> References: To: Richard Dakin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=12% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0NJDw6s062261 Cc: SAGE Members Mailing List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:13:58 -0000 I firmly believe that e-mail is capable of expressing "tone". I know this because my co-workers can tell what mood I'm in by the "tone" of my e-mail responses. When I get terse, it usually means I'm stressed out. When I'm making a point that I'm passionate about, I often get very verbose. I suppose that the perceived "tone" of a message may require context of an ongoing conversation with the author in order for the recipient to notice differences. In the example below, I detect a tone. The author definitely has an attitude about IT risk mitigation based on some recent experiences. There's a lot of bitterness expressed in this sentence. From how it is written it sounds like a sentence from a posting from the author looking for a job or contract. In that context, if I were a hiring manager, I'd avoid this person. It's one thing to express frustration with current management to your friends / professional coach / etc, but if you're offering your services, this kind of vitriol does not pass on a good impression. -- Ray Frush On Jan 23, 2010, at 11:11 AM, Richard Dakin wrote: > Please use the > following sentence as an example and let me know what you think. Does it > have tonal qualities? How does it "sound" to you? > > > > If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is done > using secretive censored fascist dictatorial leadership or treating > people like exploitable disposable objectified tasks on your checklist > for personal gain, then please do not contact me. From doug@will.to Sat Jan 23 11:36:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NJa8bZ062560 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:36:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NJa4KI024899 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:36:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.53] (h-68-164-136-126.nycmny83.static.covad.net [68.164.136.126]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id o0NJa0re005504 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:36:03 -0500 Message-ID: <4B5B4F9E.2010106@will.to> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:35:58 -0500 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1d30d2691001231057v2e57e9c5pe1ed345084869161@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1d30d2691001231057v2e57e9c5pe1ed345084869161@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0rc3 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:36:04 -0500 (EST) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:36:09 -0000 >> Recently we have been discussing "tone" in emails. Personally I do not >> think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. Some of my >> counterparts hold a differing opinion. >> Do novels contain tone? After all, they are just words on paper.. I think you'll find it preposterous to argue that they don't. There is no 'inflection' to be sure, unless so noted, but word choices and sentence structure and [in]formality matter, as Cat so elegantly pointed out. From trey@lopsa.org Sat Jan 23 11:56:00 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NJtxtW062829 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:56:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from trey@lopsa.org) Received: from sangha.cyberius.net (sangha.cyberius.net [208.75.57.115]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NJtvAh025325 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sangha.cyberius.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16A7C2FDBF1 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:48:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at sangha.cyberius.net Received: from sangha.cyberius.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (sangha.cyberius.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pm2bQAf9HVYk for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:48:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by sangha.cyberius.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A2F02FDBD2 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:48:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:48:40 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris Sender: trey@sangha.cyberius.net To: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <5511A6FC-E691-4187-81AD-C8987604F57E@frii.com> Message-ID: References: <5511A6FC-E691-4187-81AD-C8987604F57E@frii.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="1271952185-1801327584-1264276096=:5584" Content-ID: X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:56:00 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --1271952185-1801327584-1264276096=:5584 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; FORMAT=flowed; CHARSET=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Content-ID: If I may put in a linguist's oar-- "Tone" is a term that means much to the layman, but little to a linguist. (The same goes for "accent", in terms of the sound of a dialect versus the term for phonetic stress.) Instead, we talk about "prosody", or "prosodic features". These are characteristics found in the way someone speaks apart from the grammar and word choices they make. The sound, tone (in languages in which tone is not used to distinguish phonemes), rhythm, pauses, and so on, are what go into prosody. These prosodic features are usually used for discursive purposes: to color the speech, to display emotion, to strengthen or weaken the default meaning of the words used. Mastery of word choice and prosody are the two biggest factors that go into judging writing as craft or artistry. In modern Western language, we have only two ways generally to present prosody in written form: punctuation and typography (mostly italics, boldface, and underline). Online speech has added the emoticon in the casual form. Some writers write or read prosodically (they "hear words"), some do not. Word choice does much to inform the reader of the prosody intended by the writer, but can also give discursive clues to a reader who does not interpret prosody. Punctuation does even more, especially for the "oral reader" (this is a term I'm making up, I'm sure there's a term of art for someone who hears the sound of words in their head when they read). Some people have a marked deficiency in making proper prosodic and word-choice decisions, or in interpreting them when used by someone else. This is especially well-known in autism spectrum disorders or certain specific learning disabilities. It's one of the least debilitating traits of these disorders, however, so it's very probable that you interact with such people in your work life. This is not a boolean question, though--can someone detect what you call "tone", or can't they; does it exist in writing, or doesn't it. It exists to the extent that the writer detects and can translate it into writing, and to the extent that the reader understands it. If you can do it well, you have a leg up on those who can't, but you have to communicate with everyone regardless of their ability to do the same. I think of prosody (spoken or written) as an extra tool that will help get the point across of the "bare words", but that can't stand on its own. -- Trey Ethan Harris (/t͡ʃreɪ ˈiËθən ˈhÉ›rÉ™s/) http://www.lopsa.org/ President, LOPSA -- The League of Professional System Administrators Opinions expressed above are not necessarily those of LOPSA. --1271952185-1801327584-1264276096=:5584-- From richard.dakin@ccci.org Sat Jan 23 12:12:31 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NKCUjB063154 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:12:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from richard.dakin@ccci.org) Received: from mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com (mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com [208.84.65.127]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NKCRkn025677 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (pph41414 [127.0.0.1]) by pph41414.pph.sfo.proofpoint.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with SMTP id o0NKBR33000789 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:12:27 -0500 Received: from hart-edge2.ccci.org ([72.159.180.78]) by pph41414.pph.sfo.proofpoint.com with ESMTP id ketp68eh3-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:12:27 -0500 Received: from HART-E013V.net.ccci.org (10.10.11.4) by HART-EDGE2.ccci.org (172.16.1.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.393.1; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:12:25 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:12:09 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Tone in text communications Thread-Index: AcqcX+h4Y+1LNpj4R8KbBux6FsOXugABT6pA References: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> From: Richard Dakin To: SAGE Members List X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2010-01-23_03:2010-01-20, 2010-01-23, 2010-01-23 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1001230175 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0NKCUjB063154 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:12:31 -0000 We are fascinated by this topic as well. How many times have I read a text correspondence and thought...hmmm what is really being communicated? What is the real motive, thought, and intent of the heart behind this correspondence? I have also heard many of my colleagues respond to a message with "who do they think they are?" and "what are they trying to say"? At times they are offended by correspondence that is intended to be constructive and buildup instead of tear down and criticize. I read the same correspondence and see it differently. It is very odd. "Tone" in my limited understanding refers to quality, pitch, or volume. Auditory properties and values. Is there another more appropriate English word to use when dealing with text correspondence? Written English seems so limiting in expression and difficult if not used with proper structure and punctuation. Do the writers of technical text correspondence that have tonal languages (East Asian dialects) as their primary language have added or differing difficulties? How will sysadmin's in repressive regimes communicate appropriately about the need for positive change if they are not to call fascism fascism or exploitation exploitation? How can we better email/text/twitter/shout out to persons using English as a second language so they do not misunderstand and we do not misunderstand? I see many of the same things in the sentence used as reference. A lot of hot button adjectives. But I wonder about what is behind the angst? Is it a warped perception or is it a brutal reality? Does the individual wish to eliminate contact by those that would be offended as a filter mechanism? Would a company, school, or person that uses people like objects for selfish gain even know or care that this remark was directed towards them? Probably not! Is there a niche consultancy market in the field of "Appropriate Text Based Communications Training"? lol When I get a confusing text correspondence that seems to have a "tone" directed at me I usually seek the aid of trusted others to make sure I am not "reading into it" and for perspective. Do English as a second language individuals need to do this? Do they need to do it more frequently? Well I am busy with another SOA Suite install. Thanks for your great replies. I appreciate Usenix/SAGE and our community of passionate caring professionals. -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Adam Levin Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 2:06 PM To: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications On Sat, 23 Jan 2010, Cat Okita wrote: >> If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is done >> using secretive censored fascist dictatorial leadership or treating >> people like exploitable disposable objectified tasks on your checklist >> for personal gain, then please do not contact me. > > > "If you think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is > mysterious and challenging, please do not contact me." > > If you then turned the sentence around, to something like: > > "Please contact me if you're interested in IT risk mitigation > services using well-researched, practiced and routinely > reviewed methodologies" > > You've got yet another similar sentence with a completely different (and > more positive) tone. Sadly, too many people these days tend to consider their opinions as clear and inarguable fact, and present it that way. Also, I see people all too often unable to understand or sympathise with the opposing viewpoint, and using rhetoric to cement their point. It's so depressing. I agree with the others that the language used in the original example is loaded language and conveys an angry attitude. The original writer of the line in question would have been better off saying something to the effect of: "I find it difficult to discuss IT risk mitigation with people who believe in using strong-handed tactics or rudely treating people as objects, and I've experience a lot of that lately, so I try to avoid discussions that head in that direction. I would be happy to discuss the subject in terms of well-researched, practiced and routinely-reviewed methodologies." Now, I'm not a particularly politically-correct person, and believe in using clear, plain language when possible to convey feelings for others to understand. That can get me in trouble, but the key (and difficult) part is doing so without being rude and condescending. -Adam Ps: As a funny and related aside, I originally wrote "The original speaker" as opposed to "The original writer" above. It's so easy to fall into the trap of using email as a conversation instead of written correspondence, and I think that's where some of the complexity of this discussion arises. _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From timetrap@gmail.com Sat Jan 23 12:52:46 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NKqk1k063656 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:52:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f53.google.com (mail-pw0-f53.google.com [209.85.160.53]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NKqhOc026590 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwi4 with SMTP id 4so1501095pwi.12 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:52:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=ISMC/vJxkusjrZ3bKuk0ptkVGnDGNXPS7mJP7t462mQ=; b=t0+KED+soLJd/f19F4PNow5pQI3zv9FPUhZ6vGUTFCeIb10D7Z7hinmSs2rDCaMO47 uxUKGqgkg5ABZsieTwdv81pNHL6h2vVJTZaJyWwrqXTh0+ifzhayCvClkQARGCDZ3GVB UpsPvunF/GcYtCCpIGw/TQwmdslTzuTYZoZ7A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=OVsU6vk10m+TpUTyuMkMGLDRffgxSaMfNKbY+z4xlzw6TlW8sdkdSMyxmkM4hX3okO df8DbbziMQO4nTjJQgt1kX6DJ2WcleRGm30hzRF14oRKudpprI+RFIDRt9irgvOlgj2w +Qa4i75bv4lSp3h7SBRkGkMiqiI/r0ZKngjw4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.152.17 with SMTP id z17mr2848157wfd.45.1264279957986; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:52:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B5B4F9E.2010106@will.to> References: <1d30d2691001231057v2e57e9c5pe1ed345084869161@mail.gmail.com> <4B5B4F9E.2010106@will.to> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:52:37 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: f24be56195626f80 Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: Doug Hughes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=15% Cc: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:52:46 -0000 Even though this is a giant run-on sentence, and the author needlessly repeats themselves. Here's how it sounded in my head: If YOU think providing successful IT risk mitigation services is done using SECRETIVE CENSORED FASCIST DICTATORIAL "leadership" or treating people like EXPLOITABLE DISPOSABLE OBJECTIFIED TASKS on your checklist for PERSONAL GAIN, then please DO NOT contact me. Ad hominem without a doubt. Rewriting it, I would do something like this: Successful risk mitigation can only be accomplished through the successful integration and education of all involved. Everyone has a stake in this process, excluding people and treating them like disposable parts of a machine undermines our efforts and denies us the value of their full talent. Leaders cannot (and must not) treat those under them as disposable pieces of a machine. Knowledge work (by extension IT) is executed only through the education and willing participation of those involved. We have no other assets apart from our people. Until you understand this you will never be a valued member of any team. Please do not contact me further regarding this project or any other. See? Tone means everything. On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Doug Hughes wrote: > >>> Recently we have been discussing "tone" in emails. Personally I do not >>> think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. Some of my >>> counterparts hold a differing opinion. >>> > > Do novels contain tone? After all, they are just words on paper.. I think > you'll find it preposterous to argue that they don't. There is no > 'inflection' to be sure, unless so noted, but word choices and sentence > structure and [in]formality matter, as Cat so elegantly pointed out. > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From rmilner@nmt.edu Sat Jan 23 15:05:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NN5iRq065176 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:05:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rmilner@nmt.edu) Received: from mailhost.nmt.edu (mailhost.nmt.edu [129.138.4.52]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NN5flP028612 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:05:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (spamhost4 [129.138.4.146]) by localhost.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D34524F158 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:05:36 -0700 (MST) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.4.3 (20060930) (RHEL AS) at nmt.edu Received: from mailhost.nmt.edu ([129.138.4.52]) by localhost (spamhost6.nmt.edu [129.138.4.146]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vUwcQPAOgxwh; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:05:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.0.4] (75-161-116-207.albq.qwest.net [75.161.116.207]) by mailhost.nmt.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42EC424EE30; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:05:31 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4B5B80BA.2000408@nmt.edu> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:05:30 -0700 From: Ruth Milner User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=82% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: rmilner@nmt.edu List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 23:05:45 -0000 Richard Dakin wrote: > When I get a confusing text correspondence that seems to have a "tone" > directed at me Say what? In your first message you wrote: > Personally I do not think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. It sounds like you do in fact detect "tone" in at least some email, but perhaps can't quite analyze where it came from. Might this be considered a linguistic form of "tone-deafness"? :-) Ruth From richard.dakin@ccci.org Sat Jan 23 15:19:33 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NNJWVA065354 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:19:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from richard.dakin@ccci.org) Received: from mx0a-000cec01.pphosted.com (mx0a-000cec01.pphosted.com [67.231.144.127]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NNJTEl028841 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:19:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0000157 [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000cec01.pphosted.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with SMTP id o0NNBLtm024939; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:19:28 -0500 Received: from hart-edge2.ccci.org ([72.159.180.78]) by mx0a-000cec01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id kfu92fqnx-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:19:28 -0500 Received: from HART-E013V.net.ccci.org (10.10.11.4) by HART-EDGE2.ccci.org (172.16.1.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.393.1; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:19:26 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:19:02 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4B5B80BA.2000408@nmt.edu> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Tone in text communications Thread-Index: AcqcgWGpkcm32IIaRfOZ5VMwz+Yp/AAAOkYQ References: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> <4B5B80BA.2000408@nmt.edu> From: Richard Dakin To: , X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2010-01-23_03:2010-01-20, 2010-01-23, 2010-01-23 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1001230211 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0NNJWVA065354 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 23:19:33 -0000 I do have to sit behind the deaf section on Sunday Morning. :) -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Ruth Milner Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 6:06 PM To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications Richard Dakin wrote: > When I get a confusing text correspondence that seems to have a "tone" > directed at me Say what? In your first message you wrote: > Personally I do not think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. It sounds like you do in fact detect "tone" in at least some email, but perhaps can't quite analyze where it came from. Might this be considered a linguistic form of "tone-deafness"? :-) Ruth _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From richard.dakin@ccci.org Sat Jan 23 15:30:41 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0NNUfRG065525 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:30:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from richard.dakin@ccci.org) Received: from mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com (mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com [208.84.65.127]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0NNUcL3028997 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (pph40730 [127.0.0.1]) by mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with SMTP id o0NNLQ1o021462 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:30:38 -0500 Received: from hart-edge2.ccci.org ([72.159.180.78]) by mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id kf13en9gq-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:30:37 -0500 Received: from HART-E013V.net.ccci.org (10.10.11.4) by HART-EDGE2.ccci.org (172.16.1.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.393.1; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:30:35 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:30:10 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Tone in text communications Thread-Index: AcqcgWGpkcm32IIaRfOZ5VMwz+Yp/AAAOkYQAABL8AA= References: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> <4B5B80BA.2000408@nmt.edu> From: Richard Dakin To: X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2010-01-23_03:2010-01-20, 2010-01-23, 2010-01-23 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1001230212 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0NNUfRG065525 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 23:30:42 -0000 You know last Sunday I could have sworn the person doing the American Sign Language in front of the hearing impaired section had a "tone" in her fingers. :) I do have to sit behind the deaf section on Sunday Morning. :) -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Ruth Milner Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 6:06 PM To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications Richard Dakin wrote: > When I get a confusing text correspondence that seems to have a "tone" > directed at me Say what? In your first message you wrote: > Personally I do not think simple text in emails contain tonal qualities. It sounds like you do in fact detect "tone" in at least some email, but perhaps can't quite analyze where it came from. Might this be considered a linguistic form of "tone-deafness"? :-) Ruth _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From dnb@ccs.neu.edu Sat Jan 23 17:40:12 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0O1eB8x067113 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:40:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dnb@ccs.neu.edu) Received: from zimbra.ccs.neu.edu (zimbra.ccs.neu.edu [129.10.116.59]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0O1e8PG000903 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:40:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.ccs.neu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08240970610 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:40:08 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.ccs.neu.edu Received: from zimbra.ccs.neu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.ccs.neu.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id phX4InpFJeoB for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:40:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.0.9] (c-24-218-125-32.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.218.125.32]) by zimbra.ccs.neu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8B86970521 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:40:01 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) From: "David N. Blank-Edelman" In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:40:01 -0500 Message-Id: <1AF58632-9DF4-4896-9F28-B4B2755833CF@ccs.neu.edu> References: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> <4B5B80BA.2000408@nmt.edu> To: SAGE Members X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager; whitelist Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0O1eB8x067113 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 01:40:12 -0000 On Jan 23, 2010, at 6:30 PM, Richard Dakin wrote: > You know last Sunday I could have sworn the person doing the American > Sign Language in front of the hearing impaired section had a "tone" in > her fingers. :) Without sending this discussion careening in another direction, I can say from my experience as someone who has started learning ASL that if the interpreter was doing his or her job correctly, there was definitely a tone being conveyed (not to mention a register). I can also tell you that people are considered to have regional accents in ASL as well (e.g. New Yorkers are known for being fast talkers). There's a tremendous amount of nuance in the language and how it is spoken. -- dNb From rskiadmin@chycoski.com Sat Jan 23 17:53:47 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0O1rlpw067236 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:53:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rskiadmin@chycoski.com) Received: from adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.122.242.225]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0O1riMn001219 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:53:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.72.2] (wizfast.rski.net [192.168.72.2]) by adsl-67-122-242-225.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o0O1rawd025287; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:53:37 -0800 Message-ID: <4B5BA820.3070607@chycoski.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:53:36 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Dakin References: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> <4B5B80BA.2000408@nmt.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 01:53:48 -0000 ASL is another language that is quite full of expressiveness, at least as rich as face-to-face vocal communication. If you've never seen two people arguing in ASL, I can tell you that emotion and 'tone' come across VERY well, even to a non-ASL-cognisant individual! Words on a page do not have all of the same conduits of expression, but they certainly have a set of their own, if often misunderstood and (often unintentionally) misused. I've had to send out 'oops' messages on occasion after rereading my own missives a while after sending them - but most people on this list are probably not surprised at that fact. :-) Take: Get your filthy, greasy, paws off my stack you lily-livered scum-sucking excuse for a homo not-so-sapiens. vs Please don't touch my delicate stack, it is easily broken. These don't "sound" different to you? They certainly give me a different 'tone' (yah, that's not the correct technical term, but like most professions, the general public doesn't really understand the 'correct' ones). The use of ad hominem comments in the first should certainly convey a rather negative 'tone', whereas the latter should convey a much more polite 'tone'. As in: Don't take that tone with me! vs Don't use that prosody with me! (And I've probably managed to misuse both terms. Ha.) - Richard Richard Dakin wrote: > You know last Sunday I could have sworn the person doing the American > Sign Language in front of the hearing impaired section had a "tone" in > her fingers. :) > > > I do have to sit behind the deaf section on Sunday Morning. :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org > [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Ruth Milner > Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 6:06 PM > To: sage-members@usenix.org > Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications > > Richard Dakin wrote: > > When I get a confusing text correspondence that seems to have a > "tone" > > directed at me > > Say what? In your first message you wrote: > > > Personally I do not think simple text in emails contain tonal > qualities. > > It sounds like you do in fact detect "tone" in at least some email, but > perhaps can't quite analyze where it came from. Might this be considered > a linguistic form of "tone-deafness"? :-) > > Ruth > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Sat Jan 23 22:25:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0O6PiRF070901 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:25:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toq4-srv.bellnexxia.net (toq4.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.24]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0O6Peph005744 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:25:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from toip3.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.86]) by tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100124053801.MJED1958.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip3.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Sun, 24 Jan 2010 00:38:01 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgEBAC1qW0tMQR4r/2dsb2JhbAAI1GOEOwQ Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279335979.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.65.30.43]) by toip3.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 24 Jan 2010 00:27:00 -0500 Message-Id: From: David Magda To: Joseph Kern In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 00:38:00 -0500 References: <1d30d2691001231057v2e57e9c5pe1ed345084869161@mail.gmail.com> <4B5B4F9E.2010106@will.to> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE list Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 06:25:44 -0000 On Jan 23, 2010, at 15:52, Joseph Kern wrote: > Leaders cannot (and must not) treat those under them as disposable > pieces of a machine. Except that they can and do. :) Your missive (especially the first paragraph) is a nice touchy-feely take on things, and has the "social grease" that Cat Okita mentioned, but if I would read it I would classify it as PC BS meant to coddle me. At least in original message Richard Darkin sent along I'd be pretty sure that the writer is expressing their true feelings in an efficient manner; one where I don't have to waste time parsing the words trying to figure out what they "really meant". Perhaps I'm more logical and less empathetic than the average person, but personally I'd rather people tell me things honesty so I can take it in, decide if there are any actions that need to be done with the new information, and then move on with my life once it's been dealt with. From hyc@symas.com Sat Jan 23 22:48:33 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0O6mX9s071136 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:48:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hyc@symas.com) Received: from lirone.symas.net (lirone.symas.net [64.71.152.235]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0O6mUFJ006129 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from cpe-76-94-188-212.socal.res.rr.com ([76.94.188.212] helo=[192.168.1.20]) by lirone.symas.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NYwGr-0000Jk-P5; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:48:29 -0800 Message-ID: <4B5BED48.7000905@symas.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:48:40 -0800 From: Howard Chu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; rv:1.9.3a1pre) Gecko/20100115 SeaMonkey/2.0a1pre Firefox/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Magda References: <1d30d2691001231057v2e57e9c5pe1ed345084869161@mail.gmail.com> <4B5B4F9E.2010106@will.to> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE list Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 06:48:34 -0000 David Magda wrote: > On Jan 23, 2010, at 15:52, Joseph Kern wrote: > >> Leaders cannot (and must not) treat those under them as disposable >> pieces of a machine. > > Except that they can and do. :) > > Your missive (especially the first paragraph) is a nice touchy-feely > take on things, and has the "social grease" that Cat Okita mentioned, > but if I would read it I would classify it as PC BS meant to coddle me. > > At least in original message Richard Darkin sent along I'd be pretty > sure that the writer is expressing their true feelings in an efficient > manner; one where I don't have to waste time parsing the words trying > to figure out what they "really meant". This touches on one of the most important points - yes, tone can be conveyed in text, by authors etc., but how many people do you know who take the same amount of care crafting each sentence in their email as is required of a good novel? Aside from that, how many people do you know who actually have good enough writing skills to pen a Great Novel? Finally, how many people do you know who are alert enough readers to pick up on all of this? How many would "waste time trying to figure out what" was really meant... How many people try to read far more into the words than the words themselves merit? Unless you know the writer very well, it's usually a mistake to try to figure too much out. And if the writer is trying to lace more meaning into an email missive, but doesn't know all of the audience well, that's a problem too. In both cases it's better to assume as little as possible about tone and only take the words at face value. > Perhaps I'm more logical and less empathetic than the average person, > but personally I'd rather people tell me things honesty so I can take > it in, decide if there are any actions that need to be done with the > new information, and then move on with my life once it's been dealt > with. -- -- Howard Chu CTO, Symas Corp. http://www.symas.com Director, Highland Sun http://highlandsun.com/hyc/ Chief Architect, OpenLDAP http://www.openldap.org/project/ From timetrap@gmail.com Sun Jan 24 04:20:06 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0OCK6kS075681 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 2010 04:20:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f197.google.com (mail-pz0-f197.google.com [209.85.222.197]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0OCK3Ea020432 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 2010 04:20:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by pzk35 with SMTP id 35so1958747pzk.22 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 2010 04:19:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=maoxXhqCwmgt+QEqEFsZT3Icl/sipDCwCAQ/UTx9XlA=; b=rRMr5MW9hgaFV+Qqa32kRdALmpccMH4G5qUFAbXccpxCCArabAYsmXVfkVJ6tg3SvA /LIMgCLL8f1+CpQ/HG5O9Y0VLtC6x85z6xD0YGxwdiJfrmcTgG3TeC/6FzRnS1N8QHi+ NzRdu5y5tHYziCwOWNnGq4LXJvjY7tE6pRoO0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=iMd6BWbx7poEpo0GafzpGq9d6E+1wZT6cuJR+cAi1a3c+BdAP1h+h052oRALc/P3Fh wCVbYMqxU27EPHDrclAIbaoQtnvrkgIVO6KzB/SnygmSSYoDAGj79B4xjVqH50dKP421 gKi7CXGnZJ6DQEtEB2Gj366bExFCbyLuU/TnY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.196.14 with SMTP id t14mr3611622wff.326.1264335598497; Sun, 24 Jan 2010 04:19:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1d30d2691001231057v2e57e9c5pe1ed345084869161@mail.gmail.com> <4B5B4F9E.2010106@will.to> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 07:19:58 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3d0540b7b94d0ab9 Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: David Magda Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Cc: SAGE list Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 12:20:07 -0000 >> Leaders cannot (and must not) treat those under them as disposable pieces of a machine. > Except that they can and do. :) I know ... > At least in original message Richard Darkin sent along I'd be pretty sure that the writer is expressing their true feelings in an efficient manner; one where I don't have to waste time parsing the words trying to figure out what they "really meant". You raise some good points; maybe a phone call would be better? > Your missive (especially the first paragraph) is a nice touchy-feely take on things, and has the "social grease" that Cat Okita mentioned, but if I would read it I would classify it as PC BS meant to coddle me. "Know thy audience" is always the first rule of writing (and speech). I would make the case that email (because of SOX) is more or less permanent (and admissible in court as evidence). Trying to be a little PC might not hurt as long as you remain intellectually honest and still convey your meaning. You'll have to forgive my attempts at being PC. Most of the nasty-grams I write are to superiors. :-) On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 12:38 AM, David Magda wrote: > On Jan 23, 2010, at 15:52, Joseph Kern wrote: > >> Leaders cannot (and must not) treat those under them as disposable pieces >> of a machine. > > Except that they can and do. :) > > Your missive (especially the first paragraph) is a nice touchy-feely take on > things, and has the "social grease" that Cat Okita mentioned, but if I would > read it I would classify it as PC BS meant to coddle me. > > At least in original message Richard Darkin sent along I'd be pretty sure > that the writer is expressing their true feelings in an efficient manner; > one where I don't have to waste time parsing the words trying to figure out > what they "really meant". > > Perhaps I'm more logical and less empathetic than the average person, but > personally I'd rather people tell me things honesty so I can take it in, > decide if there are any actions that need to be done with the new > information, and then move on with my life once it's been dealt with. > > From andrew@research.att.com Mon Jan 25 04:49:24 2010 Received: from mail-yellow.research.att.com (mail-dark.research.att.com [192.20.225.112]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0PCnNIu095197 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:49:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@research.att.com) Received: from [135.207.39.163] (castle7163.research.att.com [135.207.39.163]) by bigmail.research.att.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id o0PCnHrk023702 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:49:18 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> From: Andrew Hume Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:49:15 -0500 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 12:49:24 -0000 This issue comes up often at $WORK, especially when i work on presentations. you need to decide two main things: - what (facts, warning, concerns etc) needs to be communicated - how those are best presented in order that the audience will hear and understand them this latter, which used to be taught decades ago as rhetoric, is the most important part of the communication, and is mostly not taught to technical folks. and for the original question? of course written words have tone. and restricting your prose to dense technobabble in passive and indirect voice doesn't change that: "use of wiring techniques which allow cable strains of more than 5 kgs will typically result in punitive measures yet to be devised but which may include cable ties and testicles." ------------------ Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and LOPSA From timetrap@gmail.com Mon Jan 25 07:18:46 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f197.google.com (mail-pz0-f197.google.com [209.85.222.197]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0PFIknR097222 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:18:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: by pzk35 with SMTP id 35so2660963pzk.22 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:18:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GXcKnt7Kl8fA9pjhZPbD2rWavL+RiIXt8LHawhxGJrM=; b=dKH/T6zSoebQ111An+85fLq4Z3qPZUdSON1ux3fR4lUjdhahQwRe48wUkmZEdijkg/ JV0Qw0gKqO4T73TgJ1soYy0Z7nR4DcrMU/0YCXCFpJ5AIPrGBQxF0v/QlxA8M+eoe1aU Q5sLIvKhIB0k8/YN6lvkEda/3cAcR0qAeMaiA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=TzH2BAscKwA4uytN89szYklzuG2D7AX/zcXFXcEt74dbWxfXpE0EEouiB53z5u8J7+ odD+QH9/ZuAoBI7JfdDU1XiBWI2Mr+qCq/guNzbPllqsxsfgPkHzUjauACAeHeP961Xn No7Juiflugl3/imrSquf1CHA52k3jGLPU/8rg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.143.24.31 with SMTP id b31mr233920wfj.242.1264432720823; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:18:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> References: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:18:40 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7dded5e942cb7d2e Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: Andrew Hume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0PFIknR097222 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:18:46 -0000 Well said Andrew. I found myself deeply interested in the power of words after reading the Dune novels. Geeky I know. But I found an excellent resource for learning the real art of rehtoric and the art of writing. Way With Words: Writing, Rhetoric, and the Art of Persuasion: http://www.rbfilm.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=scholar.show_course&course_id=85 Way with Words II: Approaches to Literature: http://www.rbfilm.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=scholar.show_course&course_id=102 These are two audio courses that I found entertaining and enlightening. I found these through audbile and they remain the only "books" (they're audio lectures actually) that I've listened to more than twice. If you create an audible account through an affiliate you receive a free audio book (hint hint). Also at each link, there is a free PDF guide for the lecture notes, these are very complete, but lack the range and impact of the actual lectures. I can also recommend the other lectures in his series: http://www.rbfilm.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=scholar.show_professors&prof_id=44 -- Joseph Kern On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 7:49 AM, Andrew Hume wrote: > This issue comes up often at $WORK, especially when i work on > presentations. you need to decide two main things: >        - what (facts, warning, concerns etc) needs to be communicated >        - how those are best presented in order that the audience will hear >                and understand them > > this latter, which used to be taught decades ago as rhetoric, is the most > important part of the communication, and is mostly not taught > to technical folks. and for the original question? of course written > words have tone. and restricting your prose to dense technobabble > in passive and indirect voice doesn't change that: > >        "use of wiring techniques which allow cable strains of > more than 5 kgs will typically result in punitive measures > yet to be devised but which may include cable ties and > testicles." > > ------------------ > Andrew Hume  (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 > andrew@research.att.com  (Work) +1 973-360-8651 > AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and LOPSA > > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From david@splunk.com Mon Jan 25 07:22:34 2010 Received: from EXHUB017-2.exch017.msoutlookonline.net (exhub017-2.exch017.msoutlookonline.net [64.78.22.17]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0PFMYWo097306 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:22:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david@splunk.com) Received: from mcdavid-2.local (69.109.191.201) by smtpx17.msoutlookonline.net (64.78.22.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.176.0; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:22:29 -0800 Message-ID: <4B5DB733.8080106@splunk.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:22:27 -0800 From: David Carasso Organization: Splunk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100120 Lightning/1.0b1 Shredder/3.0.2pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Hume References: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> In-Reply-To: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: "sage-members@mailman.sage.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:22:35 -0000 On 1/25/10 4:49 AM, Andrew Hume wrote: > - how those are best presented in order that the audience will hear > and understand them > > this latter, which used to be taught decades ago as rhetoric, is the > most important part of the communication, and is mostly not taught > to technical folks. > Many colleges have rhetoric classes that meet English requirements. That's what I took and it was much more useful than a generic English class. I'd recommend that option to all students in college. I've also enjoyed these three books in the last year -- they're fun reads, especially the first: * Thank You for Arguing: What Aristotle, Lincoln, and Homer Simpson Can Teach Us About the Art of Persuasion * How to Win Every Argument: The Use and Abuse of Logic * A Rulebook for Arguments Besides persuasion, they discuss common logical flaws people use and abuse all the time, and how to prevent yourself from being manipulated. As an aside, I learned more about English, and language in general, from one year of Latin than I did from 12 years of English classes. I'd highly recommend high school students take it. -- *david carasso* chief mind *Splunk* > * mine the gap* From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Mon Jan 25 08:59:18 2010 Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0PGxHtk098445 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 08:59:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o0PGxFNb021103; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:59:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:59:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <41118.207.61.230.154.1264438756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <4B5DB733.8080106@splunk.com> References: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> <4B5DB733.8080106@splunk.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:59:16 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "David Carasso" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: "sage-members@mailman.sage.org" , Andrew Hume Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:59:18 -0000 On Mon, January 25, 2010 10:22, David Carasso wrote: > > On 1/25/10 4:49 AM, Andrew Hume wrote: >> - how those are best presented in order that the audience will hear >> and understand them >> >> this latter, which used to be taught decades ago as rhetoric, is the >> most important part of the communication, and is mostly not taught >> to technical folks. > > Many colleges have rhetoric classes that meet English requirements. > That's what I took and it was much more useful than a generic English > class. I'd recommend that option to all students in college. In Canada, engineering students have to take a "technical communications" course as part of their qualifications to get their official certification. It's usually rolled in as a mandatory course in undergrad. It's mostly a way of practicing writing reports and making presentations, and (sadly) not strictly rhetoric, but it does allow people to practice their skills and be critiqued. From timetrap@gmail.com Mon Jan 25 10:13:05 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f184.google.com (mail-pz0-f184.google.com [209.85.222.184]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0PID5Od099406 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:13:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: by pzk14 with SMTP id 14so2260255pzk.23 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:13:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wmiVo2Z/gnLkJRhAtSIFTQdZe2mN+K/X2ELjKEBB7Ps=; b=oYd+7eTTc08OIhXwkanuDFVBkEDZcAvjwJJ0gClWUn4i9yOXUHrRtxX6HpTt5UVYAB LEqMyrzDdNr0Ec/QL/lJNoc8LesqWkCByduCwdHf3SHq5R/0/0r30zO/KHR2qG5jMXpi aEYLflIDejmKHoDq93JPjJgxFGKoFQrO/WJxM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=cYEbDckZF99UiZcRnB3cB8XGJbzzr+xrzSB9eOKeoYvbR5mcuIpLFldausyFcRnGWJ CDmaDJ+atGZLhofEneUpWwneKRjjqNOXuE07zdYYli8ZzxhMNP2+7oiRwTjX3Sg6iDlQ FxJpw+vU+az7gEVYE5Zt50MvFez9DOVN5xy5s= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.9.37 with SMTP id 37mr4396043wfi.101.1264443179841; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:12:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <41118.207.61.230.154.1264438756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> References: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> <4B5DB733.8080106@splunk.com> <41118.207.61.230.154.1264438756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:12:59 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 906b376f5f5df974 Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: David Magda Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0PID5Od099406 Cc: "sage-members@mailman.sage.org" , Andrew Hume Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:13:06 -0000 I found that taking an improv class, and participating in several plays really breaks you out of your stage-fright shell. I did these in college as electives, and it has served me well. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:59 AM, David Magda wrote: > On Mon, January 25, 2010 10:22, David Carasso wrote: >> >> On 1/25/10 4:49 AM, Andrew Hume wrote: >>>      - how those are best presented in order that the audience will hear >>>              and understand them >>> >>> this latter, which used to be taught decades ago as rhetoric, is the >>> most important part of the communication, and is mostly not taught >>> to technical folks. >> >> Many colleges have rhetoric classes that meet English requirements. >> That's what I took and it was much more useful than a generic English >> class. I'd recommend that option to all students in college. > > In Canada, engineering students have to take a "technical communications" > course as part of their qualifications to get their official > certification. It's usually rolled in as a mandatory course in undergrad. > > It's mostly a way of practicing writing reports and making presentations, > and (sadly) not strictly rhetoric, but it does allow people to practice > their skills and be critiqued. > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From mizmoose@gmail.com Mon Jan 25 16:44:53 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0Q0ir9l011654 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:44:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mizmoose@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.145]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0Q0in7K002943 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:44:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 14so248546qwa.22 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:44:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=uywifyRGDpjf4xFqdVSIrt78c8byPNNAUNW/7zvuVFY=; b=RX/XcEizZSUNZpFtdT8CIokR7NVfDzXjiz8/dhULCn+zxV2QfuWcr+Cc+FCLEUDczv XljkkntnFEuo2NUvqXb24ElbPIPhe1a05xaQQA+TI9BFr0b1JjoFG3CI3hYit0MPCWPp awJXH1KBubXWa6EFaMmZpQxpRUa4JnKa+w6ak= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=KjjHVTxrRz66reNB0qfghUIw7mfjQ/pW/cQGhYqerQ72dWeIYMlS87mXVyeeXnNPyR +H+NQgGkiTD3neN7m68JHerygzdrCX1QT50FE/jKovX/v8AFTTm6zCuLS8yW6BubRhWk UxbLrpN/VvLlaHU09ORcDuTAQSUT9ngneG/gY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.62.84 with SMTP id w20mr4196090qch.96.1264466689306; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:44:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20100123132330.L77610@gecko.reptiles.org> <4B5B80BA.2000408@nmt.edu> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:44:49 -0500 Message-ID: From: Esther Filderman To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 00:44:53 -0000 On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 6:30 PM, Richard Dakin wrote: > You know last Sunday I could have sworn the person doing the American > Sign Language in front of the hearing impaired section had a "tone" in > her fingers. :) Except that ASL *is* an expressive language with "tone". The very first ASL class I took (back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth) ended with the instructor telling us a story about a car accident she was in. It was done completely in ASL and if we didn't understand it word for word we certainly understood the story! The best ASL instructional materials, including an online dictionary from MSU (http://commtechlab.msu.edu/sites/aslweb/), explain where particular words come from. It's often dang close to pantomime. Moose From mizmoose@gmail.com Mon Jan 25 16:48:55 2010 Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.25]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0Q0msDL011754 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:48:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mizmoose@gmail.com) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 9so70129qwb.55 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:48:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=aKfdaesXv/ZcX6uOw9ri+fP8oLrbhxZBD47ZwevL98U=; b=pkMdRahbGzlR3hrX+kT4EhxaSBglXzrgDBq8CM+FxVj7ngnDj9A76yoOYLyJYANKh8 f/VhAWhyVsx1j2y10I+9dwYVM0FKR+8+AO86KHFeqSpIi51GgfAz670xR8b7rYhKpGGh r5Sq4yBAlc/NhfFozim6ZhQYI3vnFWBS6XALA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=eIe59fNyuH77IEG/r1IL84dBD7351xpbuQ1sqob11jEuKBgVmxLw6cK2EPDs0BIbVP 2vHvqPQ0eNfwVPZy01tEunsJArYLeUxv76cz0vlgdcmkP1cAc7F6SAzterhktmfp000h UmhiIeTQTf0HnfeAgK/MqpYvn1K3geiiNAdmQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.62.84 with SMTP id w20mr4197651qch.96.1264466934328; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:48:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <41118.207.61.230.154.1264438756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> References: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> <4B5DB733.8080106@splunk.com> <41118.207.61.230.154.1264438756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:48:54 -0500 Message-ID: From: Esther Filderman To: "sage-members@mailman.sage.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 00:48:55 -0000 On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:59 AM, David Magda wrote: > In Canada, engineering students have to take a "technical communications" > course as part of their qualifications to get their official > certification. It's usually rolled in as a mandatory course in undergrad. > > It's mostly a way of practicing writing reports and making presentations, > and (sadly) not strictly rhetoric, but it does allow people to practice > their skills and be critiqued. > At Carnegie Mellon University engineering students were once (and may still be) required to take such a class. The results were often... "interesting." I recall a mechanical engineering friend taking the class in the first of his senior years :-) and a pile of us trying to explain to him why he failed a certain writing assignment. He'd somehow managed to make the first page (of a ~3 page assignment) not only one huge paragraph, but one long *sentence*. He had a hard time understanding the problem. "But all the information that's required is right here!" From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Tue Jan 26 05:17:58 2010 Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0QDHvn0030526 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 05:17:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0QDHu0I008147 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:17:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B5EEB84.6050707@bio.umass.edu> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:17:56 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sage-members@mailman.sage.org" References: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> <4B5DB733.8080106@splunk.com> <41118.207.61.230.154.1264438756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:17:56 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:17:58 -0000 Esther Filderman wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:59 AM, David Magda wrote: > >> In Canada, engineering students have to take a "technical communications" >> course as part of their qualifications to get their official >> certification. It's usually rolled in as a mandatory course in undergrad. >> >> It's mostly a way of practicing writing reports and making presentations, >> and (sadly) not strictly rhetoric, but it does allow people to practice >> their skills and be critiqued. >> > > At Carnegie Mellon University engineering students were once (and may > still be) required to take such a class. The results were often... > "interesting." > > I recall a mechanical engineering friend taking the class in the first > of his senior years :-) and a pile of us trying to explain to him why > he failed a certain writing assignment. He'd somehow managed to make > the first page (of a ~3 page assignment) not only one huge paragraph, > but one long *sentence*. He had a hard time understanding the > problem. "But all the information that's required is right here!" yup. And some programmers write what we call "spaghetti code" -- especially a problem in the days of the goto or, worse yet, the fortran 3 way branch on -, 0, +. But there is a relationship between beautiful proofs, clear code, and clear writing. They all involve a presentation that can convey or implement an idea/concept/algorithm and be understood by the reader. Clear thinking and presentation are as important in math, engineering and programming as they are in the writing of prose. When I was an undergrad, we had a brilliant programmer who wrote code that no one could understand. We used his name as a synonym for spaghetti code. I can imagine that his coding style lead to many problems in his career (unless, of course, he changed his style). In a previous life, I spent many hours contemplating a set of equations and rearranging them so that they more clearly conveyed the underlying concept I was writing about and implementing in code. That's also the source of my "Erdös 4" -- tracking down an error in interpretation that resulted from an assumption getting lost in a pile of mathematics. -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From cat@reptiles.org Tue Jan 26 05:23:08 2010 Received: from mailbox.reptiles.org (rootgecko.reptiles.org@www.reptiles.ca [198.96.210.227] (may be forged)) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0QDN8jA030639 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 05:23:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cat@reptiles.org) Received: from skink.reptiles.org ([198.96.210.227] port=56724) by mailbox.reptiles.org([198.96.210.227] port=25) via TCP with esmtp (2463 bytes) (sender: ) (ident using UNIX) id for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:23:05 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.121 2005-Nov-17 #4 built 2006-Nov-28) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:23:03 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Chris Hoogendyk In-Reply-To: <4B5EEB84.6050707@bio.umass.edu> Message-ID: <20100126082120.B77610@gecko.reptiles.org> References: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> <4B5DB733.8080106@splunk.com> <41118.207.61.230.154.1264438756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4B5EEB84.6050707@bio.umass.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-753144225-1264512183=:77610" Cc: "sage-members@mailman.sage.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:23:09 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-753144225-1264512183=:77610 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: > In a previous life, I spent many hours contemplating a set of equations a= nd=20 > rearranging them so that they more clearly conveyed the underlying concep= t I=20 > was writing about and implementing in code. That's also the source of my= =20 > "Erd=F6s 4" -- tracking down an error in interpretation that resulted=20 > from an assumption getting lost in a pile of mathematics. It's worth remembering: =09Premature optimization is the root of all evils. and: =09The perfect is the enemy of the good. however ;) Don't let the desire for perfection keep you from trying, or from doing a decent (but not perfec) job. cheers! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." --0-753144225-1264512183=:77610-- From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Wed Jan 27 05:52:19 2010 Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0RDqI7G064692 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 05:52:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0RDqHYf023268 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:52:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B604511.9030304@bio.umass.edu> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:52:17 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sage-members@mailman.sage.org" References: <01306439-6862-47DF-857F-6D7976F386CB@research.att.com> <4B5DB733.8080106@splunk.com> <41118.207.61.230.154.1264438756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4B5EEB84.6050707@bio.umass.edu> <20100126082120.B77610@gecko.reptiles.org> In-Reply-To: <20100126082120.B77610@gecko.reptiles.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:52:18 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Tone in text communications X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:52:20 -0000 Cat Okita wrote: > On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: >> In a previous life, I spent many hours contemplating a set of >> equations and rearranging them so that they more clearly conveyed the >> underlying concept I was writing about and implementing in code. >> That's also the source of my "Erdös 4" -- tracking down an error in >> interpretation that resulted from an assumption getting lost in a >> pile of mathematics. > > It's worth remembering: > > Premature optimization is the root of all evils. > > and: > > The perfect is the enemy of the good. > > however ;) Don't let the desire for perfection keep you from trying, or > from doing a decent (but not perfec) job. premature ... evils ... enemy ... good. Now there's some tone. ;-) I don't think I said anything about optimization or perfection. Both are loaded terms. Any search for perfection is either conceptually flawed or asymptotic (and I'm not one to spend a lifetime in a Concent in search of the Hylaean Theoric World ;-) ). Conciseness and clarity, however, can be achieved. Better is often possible. But, the effort required needs to be balanced against the potential benefits. Benefits, of course, is a multivariate space open to many interpretations, some of which separate political parties. Each person has to come to terms with that balance for themselves. -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From ntwrkd@gmail.com Wed Jan 27 18:38:26 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0S2cPEW083321 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:38:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ntwrkd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f48.google.com (mail-vw0-f48.google.com [209.85.212.48]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0S2cM89021510 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:38:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws5 with SMTP id 5so58277vws.35 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:38:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=PqikeJRR0xW5JkznLbK67Q3fgMUMGR3tNXEWV6o1C1U=; b=JB/STi4l/ogFjZ4f8aUHh62r6u0bwWgvqGssJU9+MHgfyQVHSWyMbp7+G+YDYyNXBY xso/lqVhbDG8IurfDScfjbKqlKu3nTcN3lnugCYOxgaxGzN7jmsjjUjm55nJrC6GTHVQ /CCHEG5wV897DV/EcLHzFQxjq4glTw+XFeCLQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=sznMDWOb6QKY/ifQnY+LupDM512PuCCE0b3V36AMi3Jv5zQws4ya8zhP/w1DERMMYC Suz1VQ0ANhLtCDK6vGF1DWxd1SvcxZwwGnrKeSE798FdPIKYMAVrvZ9LGa6hF4NDZarN hwVAfjpyUUv1eQxmxftX2rHTHzZ/iUEepbr/c= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.44.197 with SMTP id b5mr2171477vcf.51.1264645810017; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:30:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:30:09 -0800 Message-ID: From: ntwrkd To: SAGE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Subject: [SAGE] Online Training versus Classroom Training X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 02:38:26 -0000 I was wondering if anyone has had a good experience from online training for learning a programming language. If you have had a good, or bad experience, I'd be interested to here about it. Thanks, Matt From baron@bundesbrandschatzamt.de Thu Jan 28 04:13:51 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SCDogN099356 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 04:13:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from baron@bundesbrandschatzamt.de) Received: from mail.mlop.de (heimdall.mlop.de [213.128.138.33]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0SCDkQ9016628 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 04:13:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from odin.realnetworks.de (rentier.realnetworks.de [213.128.132.194]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.mlop.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0SBsI98016144 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:54:20 GMT Message-ID: <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:54:19 +0100 From: Andreas Gerler User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (X11/20090625) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> In-Reply-To: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:13:51 -0000 Tom Reingold wrote: > Hi. Can anyone recommend vpn software for a linux system running > iptables? I prefer freeware but will consider commercialware, too. > > Thanks. > > Tom Hi! Looks like nobody mentioned openvpn. http://www.openvpn.net Besides Windows and Linux also MacOSX are supported. For Mac i recommend http://code.google.com/p/tunnelblick/ I use it for interoffice connections and road warriors. Easy setup and it just works. so long... Baron -- http://www.bundesbrandschatzamt.de/~baron mailto:baron@bundesbrandschatzamt.de ICQ # 168310436 AIM: baron42fmcb From joel.merrick@gmail.com Thu Jan 28 04:28:37 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SCSb4j099542 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 04:28:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joel.merrick@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.155]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0SCSY7C016998 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 04:28:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 19so142596fgg.10 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 04:28:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=N+5kbVoAiTYno5ySBkHO+vGMzpl7RVqq/LXFajOBF9k=; b=quBzpawSZ8RRdAqH+7WqRKRch2husY+SemlqFwp8Pf0Ei4GeGKnwD9eazd5F5TobDd FrNNbrkX0kEknsBgJNpiLXR8DPa9oqSlP4HBVWsEGvrc4Gb9nK61cJNlwgoMH5ZUUKwY I+2GicGrcw5ZAr7iXXH9bqkAKie/sKA9/KZ+w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=giFGKuGKmfErzTajhw9G8j6ZFAcVh6EwoVN2mTp3Pu+ANyiCJA5wFi3NFKEGs3E04/ xuv0kAVDmPTz9nSYDbD0w6RJe6Qby+XhoCzVoTH9lJcHj0tZLUhY+ierFa4esmu7jfng id4kSMp4+5oextZOlweHHyoATEVDwRUk3jMoQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.151.142 with SMTP id r14mr1190090hbb.33.1264681713197; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 04:28:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:28:33 +0000 Message-ID: <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> From: Joel Merrick To: Andreas Gerler X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=12% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:28:38 -0000 On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Andreas Gerler < baron@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> wrote: > Tom Reingold wrote: > > Hi. Can anyone recommend vpn software for a linux system running > > iptables? I prefer freeware but will consider commercialware, too. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Tom > > Hi! > > Looks like nobody mentioned openvpn. > http://www.openvpn.net > > +1 for OpenVPN -- $ echo "kpfmAdpoofdufevq/dp/vl" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1)-1)/ge' From matt@ryanczak.org Thu Jan 28 04:32:26 2010 Received: from zap.planetfoo.org (zap.planetfoo.org [70.164.19.160]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SCWPQl099622 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 04:32:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@ryanczak.org) Received: from [IPv6:2001:500:4:15::16] (unknown [IPv6:2001:500:4:15::16]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zap.planetfoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 337F54B048A for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 07:32:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B6183F9.2050805@ryanczak.org> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 07:32:57 -0500 From: Matt Ryanczak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8pre) Gecko/20100124 Lightning/1.0b1 Shredder/3.0.2pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:32:26 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 01/28/2010 07:28 AM, Joel Merrick wrote: > +1 for OpenVPN +1 for openvpn as well. I'd like to add that as of the latest version IPv6 support is rock solid across all of its many modes of operation. It is also hard to find a platform it does not run on these days. ~Matt -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkthg/kACgkQLBnqUzFE81EHsgCeNNYRh+jj8OjnUDm7BMeVr+Ng jT0An0IW/PQiIjiTlkvikwfSvbLb6J5Q =88CX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From melgorri@hsr.ch Thu Jan 28 06:46:28 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SEkR7j003223 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 06:46:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from melgorri@hsr.ch) Received: from hsrmx1.hsr.ch (hsrmx1.hsr.ch [152.96.36.50]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0SEkOHh021234 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 06:46:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by hsrmx1.hsr.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3F6A210BCE for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:13:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from hsrmx1.hsr.ch ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (hsrmx1.hsr.ch [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id kRr+2IJfqCeM for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:13:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from sid00101.hsr.ch (sid00100.hsr.ch [152.96.20.160]) by hsrmx1.hsr.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1716E210A7C for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:13:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from sid00101.hsr.ch ([152.96.20.160]) by sid00101.hsr.ch ([152.96.20.160]) with mapi; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:13:12 +0100 From: To: Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:13:11 +0100 Thread-Topic: [SAGE] vpn software for linux Thread-Index: AcqgFynHHr801jzART6YdXH8hZjUMAADKD5w Message-ID: References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US, de-CH Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, de-CH Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0SEkR7j003223 Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:46:28 -0000 Hi Give a try to StrongSwan: an opensource 'pro' solution based on ipsec, works excellent with the new IKEv2 in Windows 7 vpn clients ( (and with Linux too, of course), with lots of modules for different use cases. Very active development and good documentation, integrated in all major linux distributions, but worth to use the latest stable version from their website www.strongswan.org And btw, (and not wanting to start a flame war about vpn) you should consider which philosophy suits better your business or use case: openvpn is openssl-based, while strongswan is ipsec based (which I'd prefer, as far as network restrictions wouldn't force me to a higher protocol level). Manuel Manuel Elgorriaga Kunze IT Services University of Applied Sciences Rapperswil CH - 8640 Rapperswil (Switzerland) www.hsr.ch -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Joel Merrick Sent: Donnerstag, 28. Januar 2010 13:29 To: Andreas Gerler Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Andreas Gerler < baron@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> wrote: > Tom Reingold wrote: > > Hi. Can anyone recommend vpn software for a linux system running > > iptables? I prefer freeware but will consider commercialware, too. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Tom > > Hi! > > Looks like nobody mentioned openvpn. > http://www.openvpn.net > > +1 for OpenVPN -- $ echo "kpfmAdpoofdufevq/dp/vl" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1)-1)/ge' _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From robert@timetraveller.org Thu Jan 28 11:10:01 2010 Received: from capella.opentrend.net (capella.opentrend.net [64.22.125.103]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SJA1Zl010357 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:10:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@timetraveller.org) Received: by capella.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B64EC137D5D; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:09:54 -0500 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on capella.opentrend.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 Received: from castor.opentrend.net (castor.opentrend.net [192.168.120.16]) by capella.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7257DD65 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:09:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E0360E640157; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:18:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCDF6408E615 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:18:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:18:27 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Brockway X-X-Sender: robert@castor.opentrend.net To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org In-Reply-To: <4B6183F9.2050805@ryanczak.org> Message-ID: References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> <4B6183F9.2050805@ryanczak.org> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 19:10:01 -0000 On Thu, 28 Jan 2010, Matt Ryanczak wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 01/28/2010 07:28 AM, Joel Merrick wrote: >> +1 for OpenVPN > > +1 for openvpn as well. I'd like to add that as of the latest version > IPv6 support is rock solid across all of its many modes of operation. > > It is also hard to find a platform it does not run on these days. I've been running cross-platform[1] OpenVPN in many different sites since 2003. It is feature-full and bullet-proof. [1] Numerous versions of Linux, OSX & MS-Windows all working together seemlessly. Rob -- Email: robert@timetraveller.org IRC: Solver Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy From awen1977@gmail.com Thu Jan 28 11:49:00 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SJn0mF011371 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:49:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from awen1977@gmail.com) Received: from mail-px0-f201.google.com (mail-px0-f201.google.com [209.85.216.201]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0SJmvZw000243 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:48:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by pxi39 with SMTP id 39so751950pxi.2 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:48:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=sSaR873YcbQoBRJcxuDa54WvkSoZmhXgIuNvRaqHsGo=; b=oRk/6tGYNRCYGcDh7l3A9agjo8cRABFEJyvIs806X82kmqWu2/X9wnmb2KQpQERBQK 8ySB/4KKip/EIyyMnikjbfO5Sfbb9c/it9kbXYjp1Cy9ZLXoz9w0ijARAV5MoIVbFB9t REqN8oeuJ0PQUxAzCw9uZIF6+cBMYZruc1eus= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=d3bv65H0ekuxkSGjbHw+N4SzNPzikbTQLwHEOP6m4izRKoqa4tIh0pktpvPX33G+q9 F3Va6ljEK1/nSLKnqDd20HTPf7vB9A6YN8gwOAkaIGto3X3k7025DHnW5qWK63eBzxCZ 4HMW8xWmE45ipYK31z4S66xW3y3cuJ322gEa8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.236.20 with SMTP id j20mr3642697wah.185.1264708131949; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:48:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:48:51 -0800 Message-ID: <4934b8181001281148s6ca432cdk5aa855f404ec9d6c@mail.gmail.com> From: Alan Wen To: Andreas Gerler X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=12% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members Subject: [SAGE] How to enable ipmitool system event log in command line? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 19:49:00 -0000 I run the following command and found the ipmitool system event logging is disabled. How I can enable it? The server is in data center, we can have remote ssh access and console access. Please advice, Alan ======== command to find out system event disabled ========== $ sudo ipmitool sel list 1 | 12/26/2006 | 01:14:19 | Event Logging Disabled #0x51 | Log area reset/cleared | Asserted From djmitche@gmail.com Thu Jan 28 12:17:54 2010 Received: from mail-bw0-f226.google.com (mail-bw0-f226.google.com [209.85.218.226]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SKHr50012520 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:17:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djmitche@gmail.com) Received: by bwz26 with SMTP id 26so1001733bwz.7 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:17:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BcoWgkP49dw2YvproMd9kA57PiV6EqEc8sXfp2JuyBE=; b=BePAeRiCakSZWbhaFv2xexy0LbikjSilHdIa0p7JBIVP5b/EMa+PHPbYS6BjGZvqBS hc0VVA+7i9zeFvV3ClM4VcEEDyIcHIqIb0PAysGmtCfHb6A2a810WdItr4WEQcirIFma TY3/im4JVOggp8ttvp39jC9ndIkTP7xiMp5A4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=ho6+xwCOcBooAYLbTZUtDWPI9V2T4PTpi0I251XCOD7PDIeU3k67kcrhyMGBy24ioF Mwz/mNVjPiiHuVRtMIZG3fzzydUdGY8GoDw0bpTlJuEzjI6qHlQi6CNBX+wT3tIknSFy GcCD8SbQbpDvziIJA02L811Vcp/2v/SluOzlw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: djmitche@gmail.com Received: by 10.204.135.214 with SMTP id o22mr2169754bkt.55.1264709867192; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:17:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> <4B6183F9.2050805@ryanczak.org> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:17:47 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 1a5c4327c3f7f034 Message-ID: <42338fbf1001281217q74a03d6cr4ab9018a73326034@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dustin J. Mitchell" To: Robert Brockway Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o0SKHr50012520 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 20:17:55 -0000 On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Robert Brockway wrote: > I've been running cross-platform[1] OpenVPN in many different sites since > 2003.  It is feature-full and bullet-proof. I wasn't going to say anything, but "bullet-proof" is a bit too strong to leave unchallenged. At $WORK, we had been using OpenVPN for some time, until the server started crashing repeatedly. The cause was narrowed slightly to "strange" traffic from a number of IPs -- basically a poison packet. The problem was solved by buying a Juniper VPN product that ships with binary blobs that require particular versions of JVM, etc. etc. -- yuck. I wasn't party to the troubleshooting process for OpenVPN, so sadly I don't have any more details for you (and there's a chance I'm repeating a made-up excuse for an inability to fix it). It seems like the ability to crash on receipt of a poison packet is not "bullet-proof," particularly since VPN servers are by their very nature exposed to the wilds of the Internet. I'd be interested to know if anyone can confirm or deny this story.. Dustin -- Open Source Storage Engineer http://www.zmanda.com From treed@copilotco.com Thu Jan 28 12:50:25 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SKoO0f014189 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:50:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0SKoMf4001878 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:50:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id D200B64C76; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:50:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:50:21 -0800 From: Tracy Reed To: Andreas Gerler Message-ID: <20100128205021.GD8165@tracyreed.org> References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OaZoDhBhXzo6bW1J" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 20:50:26 -0000 --OaZoDhBhXzo6bW1J Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 12:54:19PM +0100, Andreas Gerler spake thusly: > Looks like nobody mentioned openvpn. > http://www.openvpn.net OpenVPN is totally the way to go IMHO. Secure and easy and they have good client software for Linux, Windows, Mac. I replaced a Linksys router based VPN solution (very unreliable) with OpenVPN here a few months ago and haven't had a single trouble call about it since. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --OaZoDhBhXzo6bW1J Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLYfiN9PIYKZYVAq0RAvDpAKCWhbIkNaDiyI2083P9FfbNVpCC5ACeIvH7 Gqz2eBoSC3EAUzS6O/2GFGw= =uTPE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OaZoDhBhXzo6bW1J-- From treed@copilotco.com Thu Jan 28 12:52:52 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SKqqPi014266 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:52:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0SKqnpX001928 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:52:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 0D0D664C80; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:52:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:52:48 -0800 From: Tracy Reed To: melgorri@hsr.ch Message-ID: <20100128205248.GE8165@tracyreed.org> References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="9l24NVCWtSuIVIod" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 20:52:52 -0000 --9l24NVCWtSuIVIod Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 03:13:11PM +0100, melgorri@hsr.ch spake thusly: > And btw, (and not wanting to start a flame war about vpn) you should > consider which philosophy suits better your business or use case: Quite true > openvpn is openssl-based, while strongswan is ipsec based (which I'd > prefer, as far as network restrictions wouldn't force me to a higher > protocol level). Just to clarify: Several times I have noticed that when people hear "openssl based" they think HTTP and that this is some sort of VPN kludge over HTTP. That is not the case at all. As most of you know, any TCP stream can be tunneled and encrypted over SSL and that is what openvpn does. No HTTP involved at all. A simple and elegant solution. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --9l24NVCWtSuIVIod Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLYfkg9PIYKZYVAq0RAmPQAJ0Yym39RYEZEd5G/V/EbMfafIg+GQCfWmv7 E1zegAVzsgNOvpFhtlnjRko= =andG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --9l24NVCWtSuIVIod-- From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Jan 28 12:56:41 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SKuf4n014355 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:56:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0SKubAR002139 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:56:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o0SKuaTt017537; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:56:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:56:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <15248.207.61.230.154.1264712196.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:56:36 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: melgorri@hsr.ch User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 20:56:41 -0000 On Thu, January 28, 2010 09:13, melgorri@hsr.ch wrote: > And btw, (and not wanting to start a flame war about vpn) you should > consider which philosophy suits better your business or use case: openvpn > is openssl-based, while strongswan is ipsec based (which I'd prefer, as > far as network restrictions wouldn't force me to a higher protocol level). How well does IPsec work through things like hotel firewalls? At $WORK we used to use Cisco, but it seems there was some flakiness in getting through filtering rules in some places, so we're not using Juniper's SSL-based system. Anyone have experience between the two approaches? From livenyc@gmail.com Thu Jan 28 13:54:37 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SLsb84016282 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:54:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from livenyc@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f53.google.com (mail-pw0-f53.google.com [209.85.160.53]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0SLsYwU003569 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:54:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwi4 with SMTP id 4so817562pwi.12 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:54:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=wFJ0yxZ+9MnauIAq2RCR3xQKOIQIFlPAxULL6nW3eAQ=; b=Jv80dQrEqGvTc0LZu9ejzU1Tvhx9I4Tx39soAmzWVQwaSd/AyESrhiWWnR2Y5wc07g Igi18NecLkV8GvwqKCl26747ikLPl/35rwmpHIOUniEr0iQmfPk9mv7tuo8fmNTiO/H4 4XcikPSKCGa0xPgLmwGrxZNY5gfMGK7F+WYB4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=rtMg27/BH2YdRr2B1LVqFPvgbAjPgqEBPUzMKjvEvRZjRRWYqM5kTxvo4z8fviWX16 argBW2x7xHtDFj+f7G4t/r+kfEaSTDEXSisL5nQBLq0O5FH+6okd9hzqAQiu4NJY+pKI e/x9LHSQJhxj5NJewvYVjjGe1B3xSZmYlmKYA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: livenyc@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.54.3 with SMTP id c3mr2205967waa.2.1264715661558; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:54:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <15248.207.61.230.154.1264712196.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> <15248.207.61.230.154.1264712196.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 16:54:21 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: b307edb6e8beebad Message-ID: <810cf27d1001281354r7ae2130cx1825aa6cd2810105@mail.gmail.com> From: Igor V To: David Magda X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=13% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:54:38 -0000 we had lots of problems with IPSEC from hotels at my previous place of employment. Best solution for us was enabling TCP encapsulation (back then it was only an option on 3000 Concentrators). Changing default port (TCP 10,000) to 443 helped in places that blocked random outgoing ports -iv On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 3:56 PM, David Magda wrote: > On Thu, January 28, 2010 09:13, melgorri@hsr.ch wrote: > > > And btw, (and not wanting to start a flame war about vpn) you should > > consider which philosophy suits better your business or use case: openvpn > > is openssl-based, while strongswan is ipsec based (which I'd prefer, as > > far as network restrictions wouldn't force me to a higher protocol > level). > > How well does IPsec work through things like hotel firewalls? > > At $WORK we used to use Cisco, but it seems there was some flakiness in > getting through filtering rules in some places, so we're not using > Juniper's SSL-based system. > > Anyone have experience between the two approaches? > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From mike.diehn@gmail.com Thu Jan 28 15:07:40 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0SN7ePe018164 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:07:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike.diehn@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.146]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0SN7aLv005209 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:07:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so203990qwc.22 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:07:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; bh=+MAH5SnqbrHygEanjPfTV924IGUCwlDuvs3jm/n9rrM=; b=U/bewnNhEYpgPLovxGAakYElDduJONAbpC9H98MSchRKBj1wUyeQiAYYEPSNzvIbHO l84q0snmw2hoPibVT34kCMJiTLBRSDoAkXdY6hSdi2pgHwjeqcxkfB+gGrr3rvTBGgtu wF/5pEMm+1hDOYhbcYKFhcKxhrteNovpbxGnM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=w4zmyMCCkgXTUiEfH6Q1qjiqdCwBYeGZDDn1WY0vwJqnf1PHTD8gQxl9mfGhV4MVXT P5+GoP3y8HRCeoxPACxIUKWCOBJxuziK0qTAC429PTprMHbaCfkxTXItVcQ01Q3q81+b Fy1tDS9OM5KVS5m8SYsMzs3mMGXIziolADFOo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mike.diehn@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.59.224 with SMTP id m32mr6645360qah.76.1264719747158; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:02:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4934b8181001281148s6ca432cdk5aa855f404ec9d6c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4934b8181001281148s6ca432cdk5aa855f404ec9d6c@mail.gmail.com> From: Mike Diehn Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:02:07 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: b1dcf3b4694731d7 Message-ID: <2a03c5ff1001281502q4fe842d7xee959b22a7a969aa@mail.gmail.com> To: Alan Wen X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] How to enable ipmitool system event log in command line? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 23:07:40 -0000 Use: ipmitool mc getenables to see if it's actually disabled or not. Output from my system is: Receive Message Queue Interrupt : disabled Event Message Buffer Full Interrupt : disabled Event Message Buffer : disabled System Event Logging : enabled OEM 0 : disabled OEM 1 : disabled OEM 2 : disabled Use this to turn it on if you need to: ipmitool mc setenables system_event_log=on You'll get the "getenables" output again showing the updated setting. Best, Mike On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 2:48 PM, Alan Wen wrote: > I run the following command and found the ipmitool system event logging is > disabled. How I can enable it? > > The server is in data center, we can have remote ssh access and console > access. > > Please advice, > > Alan > > ======== command to find out system event disabled ========== > > $ sudo ipmitool sel list > 1 | 12/26/2006 | 01:14:19 | Event Logging Disabled #0x51 | Log area > reset/cleared | Asserted > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- Mike Diehn Diehn Consulting, LLC mike.diehn@gmail.com From robert@timetraveller.org Thu Jan 28 18:09:40 2010 Received: from procyon.opentrend.net (li144-209.members.linode.com [109.74.197.209]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0T29dch023175 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:09:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@timetraveller.org) Received: by procyon.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1004) id F35ECCDF5; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:09:31 -0500 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on procyon.opentrend.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 Received: from castor.opentrend.net (unknown [192.168.120.16]) by procyon.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E207CDF5 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:09:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 02F60F3E13F3; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:18:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F03E6408E615 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:18:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:18:09 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Brockway X-X-Sender: robert@castor.opentrend.net To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org In-Reply-To: <42338fbf1001281217q74a03d6cr4ab9018a73326034@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> <4B6183F9.2050805@ryanczak.org> <42338fbf1001281217q74a03d6cr4ab9018a73326034@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 02:09:41 -0000 On Thu, 28 Jan 2010, Dustin J. Mitchell wrote: > I wasn't going to say anything, but "bullet-proof" is a bit too strong > to leave unchallenged. Hehehe :) I must admit I did think twice before putting it down :) I can only go on my experience which is that in seven years of running OpenVPN hard in a variety of organisations and with mixed sets of clients and permanent VPN links connecting remote corporate offices I've only had two incidents where an OpenVPN server failed. Both were fixed by a simple restart of the server process. > At $WORK, we had been using OpenVPN for some time, until the server > started crashing repeatedly. The cause was narrowed slightly to > "strange" traffic from a number of IPs -- basically a poison packet. Did they believe the poison packets were a deliberate attack or was it just some app breaking an RFC and OpenVPN not dealing with it properly? Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert@timetraveller.org IRC: Solver Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy From djmitche@gmail.com Thu Jan 28 19:24:15 2010 Received: from mail-bw0-f226.google.com (mail-bw0-f226.google.com [209.85.218.226]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0T3OEUC025255 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 19:24:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djmitche@gmail.com) Received: by bwz26 with SMTP id 26so1316986bwz.7 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 19:24:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=f+RduN8ws+A6YPw6ec/7moU/rdLV9X9PmKy7QJWN/8c=; b=DXBuniTwBwMWw4lTHCL5cIjuig4zkFygyAYkBvraoPTFrBV3WSNY0OHgNv4orcHRiM +DSb3z7q5XM7L7DVwcgsHr5BBWS9hC8lHuda2HjhsqzorXz4hfztootUWGa6CgOLW7J/ In3krCmAvN4UVTB/UtGBBGZ+Kddglgv06Yi7k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=bKU2CcReyk6Xf5EdarnrSdpPX6yIu/EoHvMG99I5e53MzB5XRf6Ahw8yHBG+hX4V3P pUKczLOl7m50let4pjTyR31yccro38dwlMB4gzXpMCShQxE+Zjp6mxRdD2Zcgodm1Zu5 roQDq/ITIqbuTXheM6vfyTU/TGm18KvSbBhjY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: djmitche@gmail.com Received: by 10.204.33.69 with SMTP id g5mr117363bkd.167.1264735448758; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 19:24:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <543a57a81001280428m26bda155w87a4792c29c0cba4@mail.gmail.com> <4B6183F9.2050805@ryanczak.org> <42338fbf1001281217q74a03d6cr4ab9018a73326034@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:24:08 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3f51a6d1904ad5de Message-ID: <42338fbf1001281924o6f68549br169747ddd2ec038@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dustin J. Mitchell" To: Robert Brockway Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 03:24:16 -0000 On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Robert Brockway wrote: > Did they believe the poison packets were a deliberate attack or was it just > some app breaking an RFC and OpenVPN not dealing with it properly? I suspect the latter - this would be a particularly ineffectual "attack" in our environment. But, again, I don't have all of the info to be able to answer that. Dustin -- Open Source Storage Engineer http://www.zmanda.com From dhanks@gmail.com Sat Jan 30 10:16:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0UIGVgf079085 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:16:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: from mail-px0-f201.google.com (mail-px0-f201.google.com [209.85.216.201]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0UIGSwk013092 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by pxi39 with SMTP id 39so2477271pxi.2 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:16:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=TCGq0TljvfCglRD4U3HDTw7GRN7Hwr4vJdzOrO0FHVw=; b=fXTH7BTW0he1KX+lQIhzgCmrv2wvcgBKeV4uEPKzH4l68oP7hCAZXQT1RYXEvwvmK6 tqCNa73rmMDtvLgWl9V1ETRvPY4jkh6CAR2Bodm3oEA/sSuuCJe1dZ+k4RKoU9poxQib sc6iViWzcuw/M6mfWy3bfrJrrjukIQOjLTyGI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=gpCM1dC49hkx8ZJhJtiSjhrclGwEbsdYaIJa7mkuBZscDV6RXpxM7kJFDmVpMYdwPP mzy8kAaG1QfxQpx0QmxT+PAN0JnAodBE+uZsUqHNrHavZGCaYvkxyE7x/eM2B6y/emph pDELAJa0ZThcfS0i/KIe5pgi8c2vgeYTfIJnc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.65.6 with SMTP id s6mr1651044wak.53.1264875381772; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:16:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:16:21 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1001301016m38403a6fl9e895c8209e559d5@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: Andreas Gerler X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=11% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 18:16:33 -0000 Considering the current price of commercial options - you would be crazy to use anything else. I'm assuming this is Internet facing and you probably have aT1, DS3 or OC3 circuit - which is significantly less than today's 1gbps network cards. If you want to be very cheap go with an older Juniper SSG-5 or SSG-20 (the 20 has the ability to terminate T1s). This will give you bullet-proof VPNs as well as a bullet-proof firewall. Juniper has been rated #1 in enterprise firewalls for the past 10 years by Garner. These devices sell for about $100 through $400 depending on if they're used or new. If you have a little bit more money, go with the current generation of Juniper SRX100 or SRX-210. Only different between SSG and SRX models is that SRX runs JUNOS (which is superior) and the SRX has much more throughput (something you probably don't need anything) and it has a start-of-the-art inline IPS. Of course these can terminate ADSL, T1s and etc. They're also top-of-the-line firewalls. These can be bought new for less than $1,000. Even a 10 year old cisco off ebay would be better than Linux running openvpn + iptables. Nothing wrong with Linux at all, it's just the level of development and expertise that goes into Juniper/Cisco versus openvpn and iptables. Go with the Juniper solution - and you'll never look back. On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 3:54 AM, Andreas Gerler < baron@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> wrote: > Tom Reingold wrote: > > Hi. Can anyone recommend vpn software for a linux system running > > iptables? I prefer freeware but will consider commercialware, too. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Tom > > Hi! > > Looks like nobody mentioned openvpn. > http://www.openvpn.net > > Besides Windows and Linux also MacOSX are supported. > For Mac i recommend http://code.google.com/p/tunnelblick/ > > I use it for interoffice connections and road warriors. > Easy setup and it just works. > > so long... > > Baron > > -- > http://www.bundesbrandschatzamt.de/~baron > mailto:baron@bundesbrandschatzamt.de > ICQ # 168310436 AIM: baron42fmcb > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From sarunas@mail.saabnet.com Sat Jan 30 15:29:50 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0UNTnN9084910 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 15:29:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sarunas@mail.saabnet.com) Received: from qmta01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.16]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0UNTkjq021069 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 15:29:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.19]) by qmta01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id bxj81d0020QuhwU51zQXiT; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 23:24:31 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.11] ([75.69.100.212]) by omta02.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id bzQW1d0064awwyr3NzQXEW; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 23:24:31 +0000 Message-ID: <4B64BFAD.40302@mail.saabnet.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 18:24:29 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=28aru-nas?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Hanks References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <82a71f8a1001301016m38403a6fl9e895c8209e559d5@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1001301016m38403a6fl9e895c8209e559d5@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7 OpenPGP: id=53149FE6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 23:29:50 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Doug Hanks wrote: > Considering the current price of commercial options - you would be crazy to > use anything else. I'm assuming this is Internet facing and you probably > have aT1, DS3 or OC3 circuit - which is significantly less than today's > 1gbps network cards. > > If you want to be very cheap go with an older Juniper SSG-5 or SSG-20 (the > 20 has the ability to terminate T1s). This will give you bullet-proof VPNs > as well as a bullet-proof firewall. Juniper has been rated #1 in enterprise > firewalls for the past 10 years by Garner. These devices sell for about > $100 through $400 depending on if they're used or new. > > If you have a little bit more money, go with the current generation of > Juniper SRX100 or SRX-210. Only different between SSG and SRX models is > that SRX runs JUNOS (which is superior) and the SRX has much more throughput > (something you probably don't need anything) and it has a start-of-the-art > inline IPS. Of course these can terminate ADSL, T1s and etc. They're also > top-of-the-line firewalls. These can be bought new for less than $1,000. > > Even a 10 year old cisco off ebay would be better than Linux running openvpn > + iptables. Nothing wrong with Linux at all, it's just the level of > development and expertise that goes into Juniper/Cisco versus openvpn and > iptables. I beg to differ re: Juniper "development and expertise". Shell scripts, that are supplied with Linux version certainly don't attest to this. Also, as of this date, they still can't provide 64-bit version of ncsv for Linux. In general our experience here with both Cisco and Juniper VPNs was such, that we decided to run our own departmental OpenVPN, which requires minimal config/maintenace and works fine with Lin/Mac/Win clients. > Go with the Juniper solution - and you'll never look back. If you have 64-bit Linux clients, Juniper will be useless. Sarunas Burdulis Systems Administrator, Upper Valley, New Hampshire -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAktkv60ACgkQVVkpJ1MUn+ZcsACdGEDx9PiStAMjn6K2mgxizxGK TAwAnigBCbnjrhdpZBFvwnKteW5hHfO8 =W4bt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dhanks@gmail.com Sat Jan 30 16:59:29 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o0V0xTDn086805 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 16:59:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: from mail-px0-f201.google.com (mail-px0-f201.google.com [209.85.216.201]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0V0xQT5022811 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 16:59:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by pxi39 with SMTP id 39so2644796pxi.2 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 16:59:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=jv2XlO6CpbvfarXucZNyvKPqxCbtgmkPOlIfjo3hVDA=; b=P9B6YKJNNggw6dpOBZjI7FZKltOXHtU8MUaACWTnSJuccyFK2ynftrgxrDnUokR+tT j3bK8/O705V4hmQKNUoPubb8RGGA1JRZdDyDWvKiHBKibXuhKo3aGl9dKNS3PlILigyJ BUH3a4LZLLakLyqjiVkvRYElKHGj6STUvBCeI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=ADnJ5v3gcLwnmXjCO8z1KGdx1H9phDl0e8vTXoTj5EEju0gl4/gmpOyHLcG8C16rIE 75xecuF2TUhCmLWzrw8UdvpydTUFUcoiR8BD+oEXC4W5VL9YPC7+lL55tBKsq336Pgm+ gzqZNbyc65LgoKseHpOLSx8sGQX6BEzlYOL+w= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.30.7 with SMTP id d7mr1860927wad.30.1264899560498; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 16:59:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B64BFAD.40302@mail.saabnet.com> References: <3EA99849.3090800@whatexit.org> <4B617AEB.2020402@bundesbrandschatzamt.de> <82a71f8a1001301016m38403a6fl9e895c8209e559d5@mail.gmail.com> <4B64BFAD.40302@mail.saabnet.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 16:59:20 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1001301659y74ca16b8jd1be3004fe12c120@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: sarunas@mail.saabnet.com X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=11% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members Subject: Re: [SAGE] vpn software for linux X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 00:59:29 -0000 I missed the earlier part of this thread. The only problem is that I'm not sure what you mean by Linux 64-bit clients. You plan on terminating IPSEC on Linux? Why? That's where networking equipment comes to play. Also what type of VPN? The VPN taxonomy is huge. You have Overlay VPNs which consist of Layer 1, Layer 2 and Layer 3 VPNs. These include T1s, Frame Relay, ATM, GRE and IPsec. There's P2P VPNs such as MPLS VPN and split routing. Then there's virtual networks like VLANs. At the moment, I can't think of a good business or technical reason to terminate IPsec tunnels on a host. The only reason I would consider it is if I didn't have control over the network infrastructure. I seen you mentioned "ncsv" - I assume that's the binary for Juniper's Network Connect? You're using Linux 64-bit as a laptop/workstation and you want to access your company's network via the Internet? If this is the case - open a JTAC case and get the issue resolved. Juniper has been rated #1 in customer support for 10 years. I've never had any major issues with Network Connect with Windows or OS X. In that case it isn't a Juniper SSG or SRX. It would be their remote access product Juniper SA series. This integrates with RADIUS, Active Directory, LDAP, RSA SecurID, etc. Supports full RBAC support with discretionary access. Supports corporate portals, split tunneling, Kerberos, SSO, Secure Meeting (much better than WebEx) and reverse proxy. Although unfortunately this is probably around the $10,000 range. I think I just realized this thread is more of a rant about how vendors do not support 64-bit Linux, and not about networking at all, so I will sign out. On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 3:24 PM, aru-nas wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Doug Hanks wrote: > > Considering the current price of commercial options - you would be crazy > to > > use anything else. I'm assuming this is Internet facing and you probably > > have aT1, DS3 or OC3 circuit - which is significantly less than today's > > 1gbps network cards. > > > > If you want to be very cheap go with an older Juniper SSG-5 or SSG-20 > (the > > 20 has the ability to terminate T1s). This will give you bullet-proof > VPNs > > as well as a bullet-proof firewall. Juniper has been rated #1 in > enterprise > > firewalls for the past 10 years by Garner. These devices sell for about > > $100 through $400 depending on if they're used or new. > > > > If you have a little bit more money, go with the current generation of > > Juniper SRX100 or SRX-210. Only different between SSG and SRX models is > > that SRX runs JUNOS (which is superior) and the SRX has much more > throughput > > (something you probably don't need anything) and it has a > start-of-the-art > > inline IPS. Of course these can terminate ADSL, T1s and etc. They're > also > > top-of-the-line firewalls. These can be bought new for less than $1,000. > > > > Even a 10 year old cisco off ebay would be better than Linux running > openvpn > > + iptables. Nothing wrong with Linux at all, it's just the level of > > development and expertise that goes into Juniper/Cisco versus openvpn and > > iptables. > > I beg to differ re: Juniper "development and expertise". Shell scripts, > that are supplied with Linux version certainly don't attest to this. > Also, as of this date, they still can't provide 64-bit version of ncsv > for Linux. In general our experience here with both Cisco and Juniper > VPNs was such, that we decided to run our own departmental OpenVPN, > which requires minimal config/maintenace and works fine with Lin/Mac/Win > clients. > > > Go with the Juniper solution - and you'll never look back. > > If you have 64-bit Linux clients, Juniper will be useless. > > Sarunas Burdulis > Systems Administrator, > Upper Valley, New Hampshire > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iEYEARECAAYFAktkv60ACgkQVVkpJ1MUn+ZcsACdGEDx9PiStAMjn6K2mgxizxGK > TAwAnigBCbnjrhdpZBFvwnKteW5hHfO8 > =W4bt > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From mike.diehn@gmail.com Mon Feb 8 18:39:40 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o192ddOf088424 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 18:39:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike.diehn@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f201.google.com (mail-qy0-f201.google.com [209.85.221.201]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o192da1o023110 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 18:39:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk39 with SMTP id 39so891355qyk.16 for ; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:39:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=9Z41RMe93dK6HHBX2OaLA/v1GPzF2kgezn2pnt+rcEc=; b=mZS2DcgYUSHeaRPK9NoP/jqx4fV4y4mjIKEhimN/Y5pn7Oyid7jeu+6VLe095vJQnE JCsd/LgN6/NYbQNxq2b2xF32P8gEaScRmuoC1mHoN9KW7oqdo3y8Z4GhiNcM7non0Pl3 tGoArQrCyrF+yd2Bz8Re0X+2gOmtrcJp689cY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id :subject:to:content-type; b=MnBZCSm62AP63V108FKZI5i43iBRE8PeVC0wPNE6Ih0+KGQlCrKtbfzh4a7qrdngrU sDaBbJYJEs6Zi8AqjvwFAlw3bPINTS69o0hX6QqnrzETmp+yKsTzEyBZJRgBW7Aitpcg DfSR/pKuMgJfsB4kTzwcW0oRDauBSb610SEro= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mike.diehn@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.36.69 with SMTP id s5mr2802675qad.359.1265681315061; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:08:35 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Diehn Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 21:08:15 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ba3367dd05c0bb87 Message-ID: <2a03c5ff1002081808x210de80bmbad4d26a259be4ff@mail.gmail.com> To: SAGE mailing list X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] Is eRacks a decent vendor? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 02:39:40 -0000 Hello SAGErs. I'm considering purchasing a file server from eRacks.com for a client and would like to know about your experience dealing with them. With eRacks, that is. I'm dealing with a person named Max. Anything you know that I should know? Can you recommend them? Should I stay way, way away from them? Thanks, Mike -- Mike Diehn Diehn Consulting, LLC mike.diehn@gmail.com From matt@ryanczak.org Tue Feb 9 05:20:31 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19DKUPK001919 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 05:20:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@ryanczak.org) Received: from zap.planetfoo.org (zap.planetfoo.org [70.164.19.160]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19DKRkh013526 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 05:20:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:e1ce:1:223:6cff:fe93:caf3] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:e1ce:1:223:6cff:fe93:caf3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zap.planetfoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FE654B0497 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 08:10:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 08:10:48 -0500 From: Matt Ryanczak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9pre) Gecko/20100206 Lightning/1.0b1 Shredder/3.0.2pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE mailing list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 13:20:31 -0000 I'm curious how many fellow SAGE members have deployed, are deploying or are experimenting with IPv6 on their networks, hosts and applications. ~Matt From jens@quux.de Tue Feb 9 06:25:05 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19EP5IP003344 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:25:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19EP1jP015922 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:25:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 29765 invoked by uid 0); 9 Feb 2010 15:24:56 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 29762, pid: 29763, t: 0.0703s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 9 Feb 2010 15:24:56 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Ner1K-0005VI-00 for ; Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:24:54 +0100 From: Jens Link To: SAGE mailing list Organization: - References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:24:54 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> (Matt Ryanczak's message of "Tue, 09 Feb 2010 08:10:48 -0500") Message-ID: <87vde6ebbd.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:25:05 -0000 Matt Ryanczak writes: > I'm curious how many fellow SAGE members have deployed, are deploying or > are experimenting with IPv6 on their networks, hosts and applications. I'm using IPv6 for some time now. I did a number of presentation on the topic (sorry, most slides are in German[1]) and I also did some design work for using IPv6 in a large hosting environment. I'm currently working on a book about IPv6 and I relay would love to do some more IPv6 projects. BTW: 580days left (http://ipv6.he.net/statistics/). Time to start learning IPv6. cheers Jens [1] This can be change if someone would invite me to speak outside of Germany. ;-) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From richard.dakin@ccci.org Tue Feb 9 06:30:29 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19EUT9W003467 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:30:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from richard.dakin@ccci.org) Received: from mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com (mx04-000cec01.pphosted.com [208.84.65.127]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19EUQGE016154 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:30:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (pph41414 [127.0.0.1]) by pph41414.pph.sfo.proofpoint.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with SMTP id o19EKPJq030942; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:30:24 -0500 Received: from hart-edge2.ccci.org ([72.159.180.78]) by pph41414.pph.sfo.proofpoint.com with ESMTP id ksvea8vhv-2 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 09 Feb 2010 09:30:24 -0500 Received: from HART-E013V.net.ccci.org (10.10.11.4) by HART-EDGE2.ccci.org (172.16.1.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.393.1; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:30:20 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:29:54 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] IPv6 Thread-Index: Acqpi9LkAWzgNmk8Sl+lPLfGyIaQ7QABcpVg References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> From: Richard Dakin To: Matt Ryanczak , SAGE mailing list X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2010-02-09_07:2010-02-06, 2010-02-09, 2010-02-09 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1002090100 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=14% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o19EUT9W003467 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:30:30 -0000 No IPv6 here yet. A few of us have discussed it a bit "unofficially." Going to have to present a strong case for it. We are so short on tech resources. We have 100 AIX LPARs, 100 RHEL VMs, and 270 Windows VMs. We support all the hosts with one AIX sysadmin, one part-time Linux sysadmin, and three part-time Windows sysadmins. We have one CCIE on the network team. We have three Oracle DBA and 90 databases. We support 1500 staff here at our headquarters and >20K worldwide. We also have four major IT project initiatives in progress. Total IT staff here is under 100 with less than 30 in Operations(Desktop, Server, Network, and DBA/Middleware/AIX/Linux). Average salary here is %35 below market. Don't see us making the IPv6 move in the next five years. ~Dakyn -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Matt Ryanczak Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 8:11 AM To: SAGE mailing list Subject: [SAGE] IPv6 I'm curious how many fellow SAGE members have deployed, are deploying or are experimenting with IPv6 on their networks, hosts and applications. ~Matt _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From dsf@catbert.org Tue Feb 9 06:33:51 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19EXpLw003551 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:33:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dsf@catbert.org) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [66.220.1.91]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19EXmHe016274 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:33:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id 0B6FC2C24B; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:33:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:33:48 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Matt Ryanczak Message-ID: <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:33:51 -0000 Hot Diggety! Matt Ryanczak was rumored to have written: > I'm curious how many fellow SAGE members have deployed, are deploying or > are experimenting with IPv6 on their networks, hosts and applications. During an extremely intensive weekend -- solely on our own time, a senior security engineer and I hashed out all the weird quirks and bugs related to IPv6 support on systems and firewall side (network side was already working). That was maybe ... hmm, 2003? 2004? So when we were told one day that we had literally 24 hours to fully support native IPv6 DNS for a major customer (during a delicate period of customer's testing for provider suitability) all because someone in-house forgot to inform us many months before, we were ready! It's gotten even easier today to deploy and support IPv6 from the server application side. There's still a fair chunk of infrastructure that needs to properly support IPv6 -- firewalls, routers, servers, apps... But when there's a will, there's a way, as a colleague is so fond of saying. :-) The big issue tend to be in the initial knowledge acquisition. Not that easy to train even smart people who's only ever known IPv4, much less support folks who may not always have the experience base or my elderly parents (as smart as my dear parents are)... Not saying people are dumb, but simply that there's enough different about IPv6 that it's not trivial. Once you find a way around that learning curve, it's usually cake from out there. With that said, older devices with older code base may not be able to handle it, whether on server, firewall, or network side. So that has to be accounted for. It's becoming more critical now because the IANA is almost out of /8 allocatable IPv4 netblocks. From my understanding, there are currently 24 allocatable /8 blocks (out of a maximum of 256). Current forecast has it that the IANA will run out of these blocks by sometime later this year and then the five RIRs (regional IP registries -- ARIN, RIPE NCC, APNIC, AfriNIC, LACNIC) may run out of allocations from the remaining blocks by sometime next year (within the first half). So from a high level POV, ~90% of IPv4 address space has been allocated. My understanding is that once IANA is down to the final five /8 blocks, they will be giving out a single /8 to each RIR with the understanding that this block be mostly used to assist in an IPv4-to-IPv6 transition. Once the remaining stash has been allocated to the RIRs, it will be up to individual ISPs to either aggressively enforce downstream NAT'ing or to actively move customers to IPv6. IPv4 address space exhaustion is ever the moving target, but wouldn't be a bad idea for people in the trenches to become familiar with v6 so that if it's sprung upon them, the answer is a quick and confident "sure, no problem", which tends to be career-enhancing. :-) For the benefit of others here: How do SAs/network admins *start* learning about IPv6? Get yer hands dirty! What if you don't already have native v6 service? No problem! Sign up for a free v6 tunnel from Hurricane Electric's tunnelbroker service (there are others, too) and use that to play around with IPv6. If it's working, 'ping ipv6.google.com' will return something. If I can get IPv6 working on estoteric platforms such as OpenVMS, so can you, on your own Macs/PCs/UNIX boxes! I say this, having assisted a few of my fellow SAs out with this stuff on my own personal time at home, recently. Disclaimer: No association with HE other than as a long-time HE TB user. -Dan, one who sees a dancing KAME turtle :-) P.S. In case you were wondering, yes, at first, I wanted to do unmentionable things to the bright guy who thought it was a great idea to leave out the systems guys who would have to support IPv6 application service. Never did find who this genius was, so I've let it go. :) All in all, worked out OK -- because I was prepared for this eventuality. *Holds up Boy Scout badge* From dsf@catbert.org Tue Feb 9 06:44:55 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19EiswB003753 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:44:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dsf@catbert.org) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [66.220.1.91]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19EiqfR016570 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:44:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id 149392C24B; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:44:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:44:52 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Richard Dakin Message-ID: <20100209144452.GB27678@catbert.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:44:55 -0000 Hot Diggety! Richard Dakin was rumored to have written: > No IPv6 here yet. A few of us have discussed it a bit "unofficially." > Going to have to present a strong case for it. We are so short on tech Exhaustion of IPv4 address space strong enough of a business case? :-) IANA projected to run out later this year and the RIRs sometime in first half of next, I think. It's a moving target, but definitely is finite. Not going to significantly get any better with the increasing uptake of Internet-enabled devices and users. > resources. We have 100 AIX LPARs, 100 RHEL VMs, and 270 Windows VMs. We AIX, as of 4.3.3 and later, definitely has good v6 support. Pretty sure about RHEL, too. Windows -- depends on version, but likely good. > support all the hosts with one AIX sysadmin, one part-time Linux > sysadmin, and three part-time Windows sysadmins. We have one CCIE on the That's OK; security guy and I hashed out end-to-end v6 support for about 5 platforms during one intense uncompensated weekend. :-) Can be done. How badly do you want it to be done? That's really the question. :-) > network team. We have three Oracle DBA and 90 databases. We support 1500 > staff here at our headquarters and >20K worldwide. We also have four > major IT project initiatives in progress. Total IT staff here is under > 100 with less than 30 in Operations(Desktop, Server, Network, and > DBA/Middleware/AIX/Linux). Average salary here is %35 below market. > Don't see us making the IPv6 move in the next five years. Well, alternative is becoming extremely familiar with NAT. See that little swell in the ocean from afar? It's a megatsunami wave. Just looks tiny from this distance, its power of destructiveness hidden. You decide how to respond; wait until it crashes into you or pick a cheaper (and wailing-and-gnashing-teeth-free) option and head it off. There are options; IPv6 deployment, more aggressive use of NAT or private IP space, etc... But simply to do nothing is probably the worst of all possible options right now. Even at least brushing up with some test (internal) v6 deployments to verify end-to-end services works (network, firewall, system, app) would probably be a big help should you suddenly get a management directive to immediately implement IPv6. Been there, done that. Just sayin'. :) -Dan From dsf@catbert.org Tue Feb 9 06:45:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19EjVor003773 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:45:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dsf@catbert.org) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [66.220.1.91]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19EjTt1016596 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:45:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id 1741B2C24B; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:45:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:45:29 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Jens Link Message-ID: <20100209144529.GC27678@catbert.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <87vde6ebbd.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87vde6ebbd.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:45:32 -0000 Hot Diggety! Jens Link was rumored to have written: > > BTW: 580days left (http://ipv6.he.net/statistics/). Time to start > learning IPv6. Agreed. -Dan From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Tue Feb 9 07:56:10 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19FuAvt005511 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 07:56:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19Fu7kP024119 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 07:56:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o19Fu3M4011437; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:56:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:56:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:56:04 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Dan Foster" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:56:11 -0000 On Tue, February 9, 2010 09:33, Dan Foster wrote: > How do SAs/network admins *start* learning about IPv6? Get yer hands > dirty! What if you don't already have native v6 service? No problem! > > Sign up for a free v6 tunnel from Hurricane Electric's tunnelbroker > service (there are others, too) and use that to play around with IPv6. > If it's working, 'ping ipv6.google.com' will return something. If I can > get IPv6 working on estoteric platforms such as OpenVMS, so can you, on > your own Macs/PCs/UNIX boxes! > > I say this, having assisted a few of my fellow SAs out with this stuff > on my own personal time at home, recently. I think a lot of SAs learn things on their own time and end up bringing it into the organizations that they work for. I think this how Linux grew over time: a free Unix-like system that you could play with at home while using a Real Unix(tm) at work. For IPv6, does anyone know equipment that supports it? I'm pretty sure that Apple's routers have good support for it, but what about other manufacturers of routers (Dlink, Netgear, etc.)? I have an old-ish Dlink that I've load the third-party Tomato firmware on, but it doesn't support IPv6. I know some other firmware does, but I'm not sure which would is good, and don't feel like bringing down my family's network to tinker with things. Now that 802.11n has been mostly finalized, I'd be willing to purchase a new dual band router. Anyone know of any that support IPv6 out-of-box? (In addition to Apple's, which are a bit pricey.) Or any 11n routers that are well-supported (e.g., WPA2) by third-party firmware? From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Tue Feb 9 08:33:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19GX7RL006319 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 08:33:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19GX4cu025399 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 08:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o19GX3ZI014452; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:33:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:33:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <56094.207.61.230.154.1265733183.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <20100209144452.GB27678@catbert.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209144452.GB27678@catbert.org> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:33:03 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Dan Foster" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 16:33:08 -0000 On Tue, February 9, 2010 09:44, Dan Foster wrote: > There are options; IPv6 deployment, more aggressive use of NAT or > private IP space, etc... But simply to do nothing is probably the worst > of all possible options right now. Well, eventually we will reach a point where new IPv4 assignments are no longer an option, so if you want to put a server (web, e-mail, etc.) on the public Internet you'll have to assign it an IPv6 address. At that point you'll need IPv6 connectivity at least via a tunnel you have set up on your network edge to an ISP (along with supporting DNS resolution). Even if you don't use in internally (relying on 10/8, 172.16/12, 192.168/16), external connectivity will be necessary. > Even at least brushing up with some test (internal) v6 deployments to > verify end-to-end services works (network, firewall, system, app) would > probably be a big help should you suddenly get a management directive to > immediately implement IPv6. Been there, done that. Just sayin'. :) For the people who have implemented IPv6, is it "better" to start from (a) the outside-in, or (b) internally first, and then going out? By (a) I mean first you set up a tunnel to an IPv6 provider, and configure a test router to be able to ping the IPv6 network. Then you'd work on getting your DNS server reachable and resolving addresses, followed by a "play" IPv6-only web or mail server. Then you work on firewalls, DMZs, and last would be user workstations. For (b), you would start with enable IPv6 on your Windows, Mac OS X, and Unix systems on a particular subnet. Then have that subnet's router advertise routing (and play with IPv6's auto-config). Then work your way "up" to servers, DNS, and connections to the outside world done towards the end. I know that some of our developers did a bit of (b) with our products' network licensing code to comply with the mandate that the US had with regards to IPv6 "readiness" a little while ago. From matt@conundrum.com Tue Feb 9 09:21:07 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19HL7Ka008002 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:21:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@conundrum.com) Received: from coke.conundrum.com (coke.conundrum.com [216.235.9.139]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19HKpqO026824 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:20:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from beer.conundrum.com (beer.conundrum.com [216.235.13.85]) by coke.conundrum.com (8.13.1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id o19H12vo047565; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 12:01:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from matt@conundrum.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Matthew Pounsett In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 12:01:01 -0500 Message-Id: <5BB048CC-2366-473A-9AA8-C15B033D3318@conundrum.com> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> To: Richard Dakin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o19HL7Ka008002 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:21:08 -0000 On 2010/02/09, at 09:29, Richard Dakin wrote: > Don't see us making the IPv6 move in the next five years. Everyone else in the thread has already covered most of the important highlights. So, just one comment about the above statement. The current estimate is that IANA will run out of v4 addresses to give to the RIRs in September 2011[1]. In Oct 2012, the same estimate has the first of the RIRs running out of v4 addresses to give to ISPs and end-user networks. The ARIN community has made some arrangements to make sure that v4 addresses continue to be available for transition technologies[2], but essentially new IPv4 deployments will no longer happen. This means that parts of the Internet will begin to be available on IPv6 only. Depending on how long a v6 deployment project takes your company, I would guess that if you wait any more than another year to start deploying IPv6 then in late 2012 there will be parts of the Internet that you can't reach, and that can't reach you. If your management is okay with that proposition, then fine. But you should alert them to this fact (if you haven't already), and give them the opportunity to find and deploy the resources you need to get started. Cheers, Matt [1] - Operated by Geoff Huston, Chief Scientist at APNIC [2] From djmitche@gmail.com Tue Feb 9 09:51:46 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19HpkXU008652 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:51:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djmitche@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bw0-f214.google.com (mail-bw0-f214.google.com [209.85.218.214]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19HpgpB027965 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:51:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz6 with SMTP id 6so5939015bwz.11 for ; Tue, 09 Feb 2010 09:51:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sIDUPukwptJ2zgGRUtZ0/E8y51aMeZUh45jKeIZgMd0=; b=ZpmF4d4XMYLS5nmjtB537F8F0kRw4fBNf2Lq7ibxH3x9F9F7kAuA1nk6cDP9H5COfA 9vY6MYFsSTUtNTSHiGVl+fs/OBbpOVfmFGqCHkDcF9cOLJMajkBYzkm7KEAKyLU15SgW +tJQzZ9ESpsUxcXKOCsAOC59wY6TNTUdlhY9w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=mbOkaFu2sfpCxdFwP82yG0/RxohX0zGBy33NPg4+O9Ck2cWd/Hw0CGgcfrgJzogOsG M/MZ10yZ5z+jtKMbfcoRf9W7y7PQ2tsnmm7Skkv8+/5DV23tN7wOR4qsUSfCCnx83rJn B1AuIwDa7e4KFXflQjWTN/ztnYe2spYWVI5vw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: djmitche@gmail.com Received: by 10.204.15.16 with SMTP id i16mr2886912bka.138.1265737896697; Tue, 09 Feb 2010 09:51:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5BB048CC-2366-473A-9AA8-C15B033D3318@conundrum.com> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <5BB048CC-2366-473A-9AA8-C15B033D3318@conundrum.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:51:36 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 173a41109c4fa54a Message-ID: <42338fbf1002090951r7a7b64dcme7be4366b4cf374@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dustin J. Mitchell" To: Matthew Pounsett Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o19HpkXU008652 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:51:47 -0000 On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote: > The current estimate is that IANA will run out of v4 addresses to give to the RIRs in September 2011[1].  In Oct 2012, the same estimate has the first of the RIRs running out of v4 addresses to give to ISPs and end-user networks.   The ARIN community has made some arrangements to make sure that v4 addresses continue to be available for transition technologies[2], but essentially new IPv4 deployments will no longer happen.  This means that parts of the Internet will begin to be available on IPv6 only. It's worth noting that this means the world will be out of *public* allocations of new IPv4 space. It does not mean that every v4 address will be in use, and certainly lots of organizations will have ample public addresses remaining. Sure, the price of these will go up -- I can get a half-dozen static IPs for my home connection for ~$10/mo, and in five years I will probably be paying a much larger premium just to get a single non-NATted IP. It's also worth remembering that IPv6 is not a completely separate network. No ISP is going to start configuring homes to *only* talk to IPv6 in the next decade. > Depending on how long a v6 deployment project takes your company, I would guess that if you wait any more than another year to start deploying IPv6 then in late 2012 there will be parts of the Internet that you can't reach, and that can't reach you. If your management is okay with that proposition, then fine. But you should alert them to this fact (if you haven't already), and give them the opportunity to find and deploy the resources you need to get started. So to suggest that, in the next two years, there will be parts of the Internet that cannot reach an IPv4-only company is rather absurd. The converse, that you will be unable to reach parts of the Internet, is valid, but it's worth asking *which* parts of the Internet, whether there are alternatives, and whether it matters to your company. I suspect that the answer will be "no". This is not to say that we should not all begin implementing IPv6, only to refute the notion that the sky will fall in the next two years. Like all protocol transitions we've seen (except digital TV), this one will be gradual, with the rate determined by market forces. Dustin -- Open Source Storage Engineer http://www.zmanda.com From matt@ryanczak.org Tue Feb 9 10:15:40 2010 Received: from zap.planetfoo.org (zap.planetfoo.org [70.164.19.160]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19IFd2d009089 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:15:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@ryanczak.org) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:e1ce:1:223:6cff:fe93:caf3] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:e1ce:1:223:6cff:fe93:caf3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zap.planetfoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B4A6D4B0497 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 13:15:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B71A643.6040808@ryanczak.org> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 13:15:31 -0500 From: Matt Ryanczak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9pre) Gecko/20100206 Lightning/1.0b1 Shredder/3.0.2pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209144452.GB27678@catbert.org> <56094.207.61.230.154.1265733183.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <56094.207.61.230.154.1265733183.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:15:40 -0000 On 02/09/2010 11:33 AM, David Magda wrote: > For the people who have implemented IPv6, is it "better" to start from (a) > the outside-in, or (b) internally first, and then going out? > At ARIN we started with an outside-in approach. We were able to find a provider that could deliver a "native" IPv6 circuit. This was in 2002 and at that time native meant tunneled everywhere but over the last mile. The biggest problem we had at the time was with PMTU discovery breakage caused by misconfigured or broken tunnels upstream. However, this circuit was good enough to begin enabling service such as DNS and we eventually moved on to web and other external facing TCP services such as whois. I did a presentation at NANOG last fall that details the timeline for IPv6 at ARIN: http://www.nanog.org/meetings/nanog47/presentations/Wednesday/Ryanczak_Kosters_history_N47_Wed.pdf Generally I think the best approach to take is outside-in. You probably want IPv6 transit for any client machines because they will want to connect to IPv6 Internet hosts. Many apps prefer IPv6, they will use a AAAA record over an A record if one exists when doing DNS lookups. There is little standardization here though and different apps and OSes behave differently. I think that having an address plan for your network is important, just as important as it is with IPv4. To me this means that having an IPv6 enabled network should precede having IPv6 enabled hosts. I'm not sure that a lack of Internet access would really change my approach. You still need to enable your network after which hosts can follow. I have found that getting networks and servers running IPv6 to be fairly straight forward. The challenge is in enabling application support. Especially for legacy applications and appliances (printers, etc) where native IPv6 is just not going to happen. We used proxies such 6tunnel or Apache's mod_proxy to enable legacy applications and devices such as printers work over IPv6. It's also worth noting that native IPv6 clients can be a challenge. DHCPv6 is not well supported by client OSes. The only OS I know of that supports everything DHCPv6 has to offer out of the box is Windows Vista (7). Linux and OSX require additional software to get working. We side-stepped this issue by dual-stacking clients and using DHCPv4 for configuring nameservers, etc and RA for configuring IPv6 addresses. This is less than ideal and not an option at all if you want to run only IPv6. One advantage to this approach is that you can dual-stack Windows XP hosts (Windows XP does not support DNS over IPv6). I look forward to better support from Linux and OSX. I know the work is being put in to network-manager on the Linux side I'm not sure about OSX. ~Matt From Ted.Nolan@sri.com Tue Feb 9 10:17:24 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19IHOaF009117 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:17:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Ted.Nolan@sri.com) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.121]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19IHL9U028879 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:17:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([10.127.143.53]) by cdptpa-qmta04.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20100209181716052.BNZU21689@cdptpa-qmta04.mail.rr.com> for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 18:17:16 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=cx58oLqiFqs2JeY19iUA:9 a=VWkrmGY4w1-EVMpMQU0_MWRd0LQA:4 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 76.182.167.7 Received: from [76.182.167.7] ([76.182.167.7:39882] helo=sri.com) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id EF/17-02313-E56A17B4; Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:15:58 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Message from "Dustin J. Mitchell" of "Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:51:36 CST." <42338fbf1002090951r7a7b64dcme7be4366b4cf374@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 13:14:17 -0500 From: Ted Nolan X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=6% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:17:25 -0000 IPV6? We've barely finished the IP to OSI transition. Oh wait.. (Seriously, I went to a whole conference on that once). Yeah, I know, the math is more inexorable this time, and I don't guess there's a new "NAT" in the wings, but maybe Pope was right Be not the first by whom the new are tried, Nor yet the last to lay the old aside From matt@ryanczak.org Tue Feb 9 10:24:18 2010 Received: from zap.planetfoo.org (zap.planetfoo.org [70.164.19.160]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19IOGOx009218 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:24:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@ryanczak.org) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:e1ce:1:223:6cff:fe93:caf3] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:e1ce:1:223:6cff:fe93:caf3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zap.planetfoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E82C44B0497 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 13:24:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B71A848.5030208@ryanczak.org> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 13:24:08 -0500 From: Matt Ryanczak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9pre) Gecko/20100206 Lightning/1.0b1 Shredder/3.0.2pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <5BB048CC-2366-473A-9AA8-C15B033D3318@conundrum.com> <42338fbf1002090951r7a7b64dcme7be4366b4cf374@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <42338fbf1002090951r7a7b64dcme7be4366b4cf374@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:24:18 -0000 On 02/09/2010 12:51 PM, Dustin J. Mitchell wrote: > It's also worth remembering that IPv6 is not a completely separate > network. No ISP is going to start configuring homes to *only* talk to > IPv6 in the next decade. > > Comcast is testing IPv6 to their users right now. While they will be supporting IPv4 it is IPv4 which will be tunneled, not the other way around. They have several approaches in the the works. IPv4/IPv6 dual-stack and native IPv6 to the end user which tunnels IPv4 to NAT boxes upstream. I believe Comcast expects to roll out IPv6 to their users in 2012. http://www.networkworld.com/news/2010/012710-comcast-ipv6-trials.html ~Matt From tal@whatexit.org Tue Feb 9 10:25:15 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19IPEKE009243 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:25:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-iw0-f196.google.com (mail-iw0-f196.google.com [209.85.223.196]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19IPBGx029302 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:25:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by iwn34 with SMTP id 34so3905770iwn.21 for ; Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:25:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.59.7 with SMTP id j7mr664925ibh.12.1265739526167; Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:18:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <42338fbf1002090951r7a7b64dcme7be4366b4cf374@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <5BB048CC-2366-473A-9AA8-C15B033D3318@conundrum.com> <42338fbf1002090951r7a7b64dcme7be4366b4cf374@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:18:46 -0800 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91002091018y5c3df8d0vc9243559b6e8e818@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: "Dustin J. Mitchell" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:25:16 -0000 >From speaking to a lot of people I've found two truisms about converting to IPv6: Case 1. If you tell your boss you want to upgrade everything to IPv6, there'll think you are crazy and kick you out of the room. Case 2. If you pick one specific application and drive to make it work IPv6, you'll look "focused and driven" and get management support (and along the way, you'll touch "everything" that "Case 1" wanted to touch) Where I work (Google) the first "Case 2" flow was "enable people to get to www.google.com via IPv6". It turn out to be easier than we expected (http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/032509-google-ipv6-easy.html) and the LAN people have started providing IPv6 to pilot buildings and soon all buildings, and the moment is growing. Tom P.S. I can't take credit for any of this. By coincidence I've been on projects that have benefitted from their work but I haven't had to do (much) direct IPv6 conversions myself. From tony@usenix.org Tue Feb 9 10:59:56 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19IxujH010053 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:59:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tony@usenix.org) Received: from lonestar.usenix.org (lonestar.usenix.org [131.106.3.102]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19IxuxE000263 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from manhattan.usenix.org (manhattan.usenix.org [131.106.3.34] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by lonestar.usenix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o19Ixt0c005625 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:59:55 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) From: Tony Del Porto In-Reply-To: <2a03c5ff1002081808x210de80bmbad4d26a259be4ff@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:59:55 -0800 Message-Id: <08355585-704D-4E68-A7A5-66843CF4658E@usenix.org> References: <2a03c5ff1002081808x210de80bmbad4d26a259be4ff@mail.gmail.com> To: SAGE mailing list X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager; whitelist X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: lonestar; whitelist X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.7 required=6.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, FH_DATE_PAST_20XX autolearn=no version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on lonestar Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o19IxujH010053 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Is eRacks a decent vendor? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:59:56 -0000 On Feb 8, 2010, at 6:08 PM, Mike Diehn wrote: > Hello SAGErs. > > I'm considering purchasing a file server from eRacks.com for a client and > would like to know about your experience dealing with them. With eRacks, > that is. I'm dealing with a person named Max. Hi Mike, I purchased a "quietized" short depth 1U from them in 2005 to run our onsite conference server. It was delivered a little later than I would have liked, allegedly due to them tuning the balance of noise and cooling. It was not especially quiet, but was otherwise in order, well built, and served its purpose for a few years, and even wound up as a temporary DNS server for our domain last year. I pulled the motherboard out of it yesterday to run dban on a bunch of disks headed for recycling. I don't consider my experience with them negative, but I've had better experiences. I purchased some hardware from IronSystems around the same time and have used them since. HTH, Tony Tony Del Porto SysAdmin USENIX Association 2560 9th Street, Suite 215, Berkeley CA 94710 510 528 8649 x16 desk tony@usenix.org | www.usenix.org http://www.usenix.org/about/tonyd.gpgkey From bergman@merctech.com Tue Feb 9 11:10:58 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19JAwW5010403 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:10:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bergman@merctech.com) Received: from l2mail1.panix.com (l2mail1.panix.com [166.84.1.75]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19JAt2M000628 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:10:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.1.73]) by l2mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DAE4F0 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:10:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E561938E43 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:10:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from merctech.com (node4.uphs.upenn.edu [165.123.243.168]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE8523066D for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:10:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by merctech.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o19JAoYb012750 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:10:50 -0500 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.2 01/07/2005 with nmh-1.3 To: SAGE mailing list From: bergman@merctech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:10:50 -0500 Message-ID: <12749.1265742650@localhost> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Subject: [SAGE] enabling Iran <=> US data exchange w/o Iranian ISP X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: bergman@merctech.com List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 19:10:59 -0000 I've got an Iranian friend here in the US who's seeking a way for relatives in Iran to be able to transfer files out of the country, particularly in the event that Iranian data networks and ISPs are shut down next week due to protests. A method for transferring files to a server outside Iran that can receive files (and then forward them on the internet) is the minimal requirement. Full internet access would be a bonus. I assume that the machine in Iran is running Windows. We discussed sat-phones, but ruled them out for a few reasons (cost, susceptibility to surveillance, possession is a de-facto offense.). We discussed having my friend set up a PC here with a modem, in order to receive calls and data. I suggested against that, as it requires a landline (which my friend does not have) and managing a modem (ick!), having his machine available 24x7, etc. One thought that came to mind was for my friend to get an account on a US (or European) ISP that offers with dial-up PPP services, and provide that to his family in Iran so that they could direct-dial to the ISP; the assumption being that the government won't cut off all international phone service (they haven't done that in the past, even during periods where data and mobile networks were shutdown). Hopefully dial-up network access would not be filtered as was broadband previously. Any suggestions, issues, known problems, or experience with such a plan? Any specific recommendations for ISPs? Any other ideas? I will treat off-list replies as confidential, unless otherwise specified. Thanks, Mark From matt@conundrum.com Tue Feb 9 11:21:28 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19JLRcH010584 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:21:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@conundrum.com) Received: from coke.conundrum.com (coke.conundrum.com [216.235.9.139]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19JLOd0000911 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:21:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from beer.conundrum.com (beer.conundrum.com [216.235.13.85]) by coke.conundrum.com (8.13.1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id o19JKd4A054609; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:20:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from matt@conundrum.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Matthew Pounsett In-Reply-To: <42338fbf1002090951r7a7b64dcme7be4366b4cf374@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:20:38 -0500 Message-Id: <8C13C45A-6FB7-479E-8AF1-6F61E4B91378@conundrum.com> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <5BB048CC-2366-473A-9AA8-C15B033D3318@conundrum.com> <42338fbf1002090951r7a7b64dcme7be4366b4cf374@mail.gmail.com> To: "Dustin J. Mitchell" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o19JLRcH010584 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 19:21:28 -0000 On 2010/02/09, at 12:51, Dustin J. Mitchell wrote: > On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote: >> The current estimate is that IANA will run out of v4 addresses to give to the RIRs in September 2011[1]. In Oct 2012, the same estimate has the first of the RIRs running out of v4 addresses to give to ISPs and end-user networks. The ARIN community has made some arrangements to make sure that v4 addresses continue to be available for transition technologies[2], but essentially new IPv4 deployments will no longer happen. This means that parts of the Internet will begin to be available on IPv6 only. > > It's worth noting that this means the world will be out of *public* > allocations of new IPv4 space. It does not mean that every v4 address > will be in use, and certainly lots of organizations will have ample > public addresses remaining. Sure, the price of these will go up -- I > can get a half-dozen static IPs for my home connection for ~$10/mo, > and in five years I will probably be paying a much larger premium just > to get a single non-NATted IP. Right, not every address will be in use. But not everyone will be able to get their hands on the few floating around. Thus, there will be IPv6-only networks. > It's also worth remembering that IPv6 is not a completely separate > network. No ISP is going to start configuring homes to *only* talk to > IPv6 in the next decade. That's what my note above about transition addresses was about. >> Depending on how long a v6 deployment project takes your company, I would guess that if you wait any more than another year to start deploying IPv6 then in late 2012 there will be parts of the Internet that you can't reach, and that can't reach you. If your management is okay with that proposition, then fine. But you should alert them to this fact (if you haven't already), and give them the opportunity to find and deploy the resources you need to get started. > > So to suggest that, in the next two years, there will be parts of the > Internet that cannot reach an IPv4-only company is rather absurd. The > converse, that you will be unable to reach parts of the Internet, is > valid, but it's worth asking *which* parts of the Internet, whether > there are alternatives, and whether it matters to your company. I > suspect that the answer will be "no". If it is valid that you will be unable to reach parts of the Internet, then it logically follows that those parts of the internet will be unable to reach you. Both ends of the connection need to be on the same protocol stack. Not everyone that needs to reach a company's web site, mail servers, etc will be coming from a home DSL/cable connection. Some of those v6-only networks I mentioned above will be new businesses. This is not to suggest that v6-only networks will be the norm in the near future. But, there will be enough of them in the next four or five years that it will matter to a lot of people. As I said above, one's management might be okay with not being able to reach those parts of the Internet, but they need to be aware that cases will come up so that they can make a conscious choice to live with that, or not, rather than being surprised by it when it happens. Matt From robert@timetraveller.org Tue Feb 9 11:50:37 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19JobCI011402 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:50:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@timetraveller.org) Received: from capella.opentrend.net (capella.opentrend.net [64.22.125.103]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19JoY4j001639 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:50:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by capella.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 06CAD137CE4; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:44:18 -0500 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on capella.opentrend.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.1 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 Received: from castor.opentrend.net (castor.opentrend.net [192.168.120.16]) by capella.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DBE0137CE1 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:44:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DE4A6CB8698D; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by castor.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6D7C408E615 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:36:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:36:57 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Brockway X-X-Sender: robert@castor.opentrend.net To: SAGE mailing list In-Reply-To: <12749.1265742650@localhost> Message-ID: References: <12749.1265742650@localhost> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] enabling Iran <=> US data exchange w/o Iranian ISP X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 19:50:38 -0000 On Tue, 9 Feb 2010, bergman@merctech.com wrote: > A method for transferring files to a server outside Iran that can > receive files (and then forward them on the internet) is the minimal > requirement. Full internet access would be a bonus. Back at University I studied with some students from Iran. One day I noticed one of them was emailing an address under .ir. I asked her how she was doing it (since this was before Iran was directly connected to the Internet) and she said they were using an ISP in Pakistan and doing UUCP over the border in to Iran. > One thought that came to mind was for my friend to get an account on a > US (or European) ISP that offers with dial-up PPP services, and provide So rather than dialing an ISP in the US or Europe perhaps an ISP in Pakistan may offer a more reliable connection due to the shorted physical distance to the ISP. Obviously PPP would be a better option to UUCP these days ;) Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert@timetraveller.org IRC: Solver Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy From feenberg@nber.org Tue Feb 9 12:11:33 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19KBW4B012013 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 12:11:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from feenberg@nber.org) Received: from mail2.nber.org (mail2.nber.org [66.251.72.79]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19KBTcP002130 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 12:11:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from nber6.nber.org (nber6.nber.org [66.251.72.76]) by mail2.nber.org (8.14.3/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o19KAoUW091977 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT); Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:10:50 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from feenberg@nber.org) Received: from nber6.nber.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nber6.nber.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.12.10) with ESMTP id o19K9RRU022070; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:09:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (Unknown UID 1079@localhost) by nber6.nber.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) with ESMTP id o19K9Q31022067; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:09:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: nber6.nber.org: Unknown UID 1079 owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:09:25 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Feenberg To: Matthew Pounsett In-Reply-To: <8C13C45A-6FB7-479E-8AF1-6F61E4B91378@conundrum.com> Message-ID: References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <5BB048CC-2366-473A-9AA8-C15B033D3318@conundrum.com> <42338fbf1002090951r7a7b64dcme7be4366b4cf374@mail.gmail.com> <8C13C45A-6FB7-479E-8AF1-6F61E4B91378@conundrum.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Anti-Virus: Kaspersky Anti-Virus for Linux Mail Server 5.6.39/RELEASE, bases: 20100209 #3454616, check: 20100209 clean X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=36% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:11:35 -0000 On Tue, 9 Feb 2010, Matthew Pounsett wrote: > > On 2010/02/09, at 12:51, Dustin J. Mitchell wrote: > >> On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote: >>> The current estimate is that IANA will run out of v4 addresses to give to the RIRs in September 2011[1]. In Oct 2012, the same estimate has the first of the RIRs running out of v4 addresses to give to ISPs and end-user networks. The ARIN community has made some arrangements to make sure that v4 addresses continue to be available for transition technologies[2], but essentially new IPv4 deployments will no longer happen. This means that parts of the Internet will begin to be available on IPv6 only. >> >> It's worth noting that this means the world will be out of *public* >> allocations of new IPv4 space. It does not mean that every v4 address >> will be in use, and certainly lots of organizations will have ample >> public addresses remaining. Sure, the price of these will go up -- I >> can get a half-dozen static IPs for my home connection for ~$10/mo, >> and in five years I will probably be paying a much larger premium just >> to get a single non-NATted IP. > > Right, not every address will be in use. But not everyone will be able to get their hands on the few floating around. Thus, there will be IPv6-only networks. > >> It's also worth remembering that IPv6 is not a completely separate >> network. No ISP is going to start configuring homes to *only* talk to >> IPv6 in the next decade. > > That's what my note above about transition addresses was about. > >>> Depending on how long a v6 deployment project takes your company, I would guess that if you wait any more than another year to start deploying IPv6 then in late 2012 there will be parts of the Internet that you can't reach, and that can't reach you. If your management is okay with that proposition, then fine. But you should alert them to this fact (if you haven't already), and give them the opportunity to find and deploy the resources you need to get started. >> >> So to suggest that, in the next two years, there will be parts of the >> Internet that cannot reach an IPv4-only company is rather absurd. The >> converse, that you will be unable to reach parts of the Internet, is >> valid, but it's worth asking *which* parts of the Internet, whether >> there are alternatives, and whether it matters to your company. I >> suspect that the answer will be "no". > > If it is valid that you will be unable to reach parts of the Internet, > then it logically follows that those parts of the internet will be > unable to reach you. Both ends of the connection need to be on the same > protocol stack. A v4 client will not be able to reach v6-only servers, if such servers exist. But I think it very unlikely that even the most v6 oriented network couldn't find a few v4 addresses for it publicly available servers, and so the likelihood that a v4 only client will notice this disability is very small. There are already many mail and web servers offering v6 service, however as far as I can tell, all are also available via v4, and it hardly seems likely that will ever change. Consider the loss of connectivity experienced by such a server - it would make all the DNSBLs in the world together look like a minor nuisance. With 2 billion v4 addresses available, and most of them assigned to home router/nat boxes it seems unlikely that the price of few v4 addresses could ever get very high. Cable and phone companies can recover v4 addresses with a very minor price differential between v4 and v6 (or natted) service. > > Not everyone that needs to reach a company's web site, mail servers, etc > will be coming from a home DSL/cable connection. Some of those v6-only > networks I mentioned above will be new businesses. I really doubt anyone would put up a v6-only client without some mechanism to reach v4 servers. What would be the advantage? Perhaps for an internal private network. Daniel Feenberg From karl@dakota-st.com Tue Feb 9 12:45:28 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19KjSAj012866 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 12:45:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@dakota-st.com) Received: from mail.bugs-r.us (mail.bugs-r.us [174.143.233.251]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19KjPW6002911 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 12:45:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.bugs-r.us (mail.bugs-r.us [174.143.233.251]) by mail.bugs-r.us (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o19Jq14P005007 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:52:01 GMT Received: from localhost (karl@localhost) by mail.bugs-r.us (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) with ESMTP id o19Jq18X005004 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:52:01 GMT Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:52:01 +0000 (UTC) From: Karl Schlitt To: SAGE mailing list In-Reply-To: <12749.1265742650@localhost> Message-ID: References: <12749.1265742650@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] enabling Iran <=> US data exchange w/o Iranian ISP X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:45:29 -0000 On Tue, 9 Feb 2010, bergman@merctech.com wrote: > > I've got an Iranian friend here in the US who's seeking a way for relatives > in Iran to be able to transfer files out of the country, particularly in > the event that Iranian data networks and ISPs are shut down next week due > to protests. > > A method for transferring files to a server outside Iran that can > receive files (and then forward them on the internet) is the minimal > requirement. Full internet access would be a bonus. > > I assume that the machine in Iran is running Windows. > > We discussed sat-phones, but ruled them out for a few reasons (cost, > susceptibility to surveillance, possession is a de-facto offense.). > > We discussed having my friend set up a PC here with a modem, in order to > receive calls and data. I suggested against that, as it requires a landline > (which my friend does not have) and managing a modem (ick!), having his machine > available 24x7, etc. > > One thought that came to mind was for my friend to get an account on a > US (or European) ISP that offers with dial-up PPP services, and provide > that to his family in Iran so that they could direct-dial to the ISP; > the assumption being that the government won't cut off all international > phone service (they haven't done that in the past, even during periods > where data and mobile networks were shutdown). Hopefully dial-up network > access would not be filtered as was broadband previously. > > Any suggestions, issues, known problems, or experience with such a plan? > > Any specific recommendations for ISPs? > > Any other ideas? > > I will treat off-list replies as confidential, unless otherwise specified. > > Thanks, > > Mark > "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes driving down the freeway." -- Tanenbaum, Andrew S. or in this case, maybe a usb device in a DHL truck? -- karl@dakota-st.com karl@bugs-r.us From tal@whatexit.org Tue Feb 9 14:08:55 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o19M8svP014742 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:08:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-iw0-f201.google.com (mail-iw0-f201.google.com [209.85.223.201]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o19M8pSk009774 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:08:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by iwn39 with SMTP id 39so8996345iwn.1 for ; Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:08:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.168.132 with SMTP id u4mr129645iby.79.1265753326117; Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:08:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <12749.1265742650@localhost> References: <12749.1265742650@localhost> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:08:46 -0800 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91002091408s1cfefe89v7123d522f90c1fa4@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: bergman@merctech.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=8% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] enabling Iran <=> US data exchange w/o Iranian ISP X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 22:08:55 -0000 Two recommendations: Something like a daily rsync would have the benefit of being excellent for incremental updates. Once the main copy is done, repeating the same command every day would be fairly fast. You could bootstrap the process by sending physical media to the destination, then do rsync's after that. If you want to be more high tech, implement DTN. If you missed the fantastic talk at the last LISA conference, view it online here: http://www.usenix.org/event/lisa09/tech/tech.html#scott The open source implementation could really use enhancements from the world of people that need incremental updates. For example, you could send each incremental update via DTN every day, and use a Reed-Solomon (or similar) algorithms so that if one update gets lost it still all works. Tom From jens@quux.de Wed Feb 10 02:44:16 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AAiGfY032094 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 02:44:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1AAiCdb002306 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 02:44:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 28169 invoked by uid 0); 10 Feb 2010 11:44:07 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 28166, pid: 28167, t: 0.0663s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 10 Feb 2010 11:44:06 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1NfA3B-0005GQ-00 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:44:05 +0100 From: Jens Link To: SAGE mailing list Organization: - References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209144452.GB27678@catbert.org> <56094.207.61.230.154.1265733183.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:44:05 +0100 In-Reply-To: <56094.207.61.230.154.1265733183.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> (David Magda's message of "Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:33:03 -0500 (EST)") Message-ID: <877hql9xqi.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:44:17 -0000 "David Magda" writes: > For the people who have implemented IPv6, is it "better" to start from (a) > the outside-in, or (b) internally first, and then going out? (a)! If you don't have any IPv6 connectivity an you are turning on IPv6 internally (using globally route able address) you will run into some serious problems and a lot of dissatisfied users: (Most) modern operating systems and applications prefer IPv6 over IPv4. So if you want to visit www.google.com (and Goolge is announcing AAAA records) your browser will try to connect via IPv6. With no connectivity to the outside it will take some time till the browser falls back to via IPv4. So I would suggest: 1. Learn in a test network 2. Configure your firewall(s) and routing to the Internet 3. slowly start implementing IPv6 You also should be prepared to expect resistance against IPv6 ("We don't need this." We don't have time." "We still have plenty IPv4 addresses"....) and to see some errors that will be have nothing to do with IPv6 but will be blamed on IPv6. Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jens@quux.de Wed Feb 10 03:18:39 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1ABIdX6033147 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 03:18:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1ABIZKW003101 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 03:18:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 4209 invoked by uid 0); 10 Feb 2010 12:18:30 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 4206, pid: 4207, t: 0.0596s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 10 Feb 2010 12:18:30 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1NfAaS-0005xm-00 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:18:28 +0100 From: Jens Link To: SAGE mailing list Organization: - References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:18:28 +0100 In-Reply-To: <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> (David Magda's message of "Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:56:04 -0500 (EST)") Message-ID: <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:18:40 -0000 "David Magda" writes: > For IPv6, does anyone know equipment that supports it? I'm pretty sure > that Apple's routers have good support for it, but what about other > manufacturers of routers (Dlink, Netgear, etc.)? I have a Cisco 871 at home which works quite well. OpenWRT supports IPv6 in some (all?) versions. AVM (http://www.avm.de/en/index.php3) has a beta firmware for some of their routers which offers very good IPv6 support. Jens P.S. If you're going the Cisco way don't buy an 861 if you want to use IPv6. It's the only model with no IPv6 support. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Wed Feb 10 06:56:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AEu8BG039608 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 06:56:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1AEu5SQ008152 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 06:56:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1AEu75E026549; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:56:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <58258.207.61.230.154.1265813767.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:56:07 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Jens Link" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:56:09 -0000 On Wed, February 10, 2010 06:18, Jens Link wrote: > I have a Cisco 871 at home which works quite well. OpenWRT supports IPv6 > in some (all?) versions. > > AVM (http://www.avm.de/en/index.php3) has a beta firmware for some of > their routers which offers very good IPv6 support. > > Jens > P.S. If you're going the Cisco way don't buy an 861 if you want to use > IPv6. It's the only model with no IPv6 support. The 871 does not have 802.11n AFAICT; I'd have to go to an 881: http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/routers/ps380/prod_models_comparison.html I'm thinking Cisco is overkill for me. And having to deal with it at work (though from the server side), I'd match rather go with a Juniper solution if possible. :) AVM products do not seem to be available in Canada (or even the US). Thanks for the info. I know of many of the third-party firmware (e.g., OpenWRT), but have have found the interfaces to most to be lacking in some way. I guess I'll wait it out a little longer to see what the "market" does. From tal@whatexit.org Wed Feb 10 08:51:46 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AGpkTG042763 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:51:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-iw0-f189.google.com (mail-iw0-f189.google.com [209.85.223.189]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1AGpgus010827 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:51:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by iwn27 with SMTP id 27so198351iwn.20 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:51:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.154.207 with SMTP id p15mr810131ibw.71.1265820334624; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:45:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <877hql9xqi.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209144452.GB27678@catbert.org> <56094.207.61.230.154.1265733183.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql9xqi.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:45:34 -0800 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91002100845k707f26ebi7017fe0c3a12df63@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: Jens Link Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=8% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:51:46 -0000 Another way to do "outside -> in" is to get your company's external web server accessible via IPv6. This forces you to deal with all the ISP issues, routing, etc. In fact, if your web site is behind some kind of reverse proxy/load balancer, a good first step is to get IPv6 to the reverse proxy. You can have your reverse proxy translate to IPv4, leaving your Web Servers at IPv4 (at first) world <--> ISP <--> ReverseProxy <--> WebServerFarm IPv6 IPv6 IPv6 IPv4 Eventually you can convert systems in your web farm to IPv6 too. There are big benefits to being able to do the conversions in small, incremental steps. Tom From gary.richardson@gmail.com Wed Feb 10 08:55:41 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AGteO9042886 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:55:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gary.richardson@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f188.google.com (mail-pz0-f188.google.com [209.85.222.188]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1AGtcsn010951 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:55:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by pzk26 with SMTP id 26so224197pzk.26 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:55:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=jsDshW30QWcOFMzBl5sd/k09EL4KoWNrDe+8TMLI9RE=; b=IWzzP2VSFckINmryjt7/hSyctP7Xe7Jb1ZNQpzmiDtCQLL5Eiih2imBMXDpJgzEPp+ DXcN1w6k7P6vWFHkZVWo/Zt6UHq+6QQcQq09a/as+FfebNbHTEPlEDvyBlGieHG6WPQo htRrIJPf1FHJCsPBd/GFMjBqSHoxkPmzTKNWs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=RocucP5JLePGonqJYy9fX1qk3F+CSa907T35j8Oz1FRsgU7+CDsoKMnJOkE+uMuuCC 0+G9SLiRdnZeZ2n3IBx9FE0LEDY4ya2g3hUrxwdy2s0nY9wge3jL9S3riSexfgOqgncq QNWrWiYe2CfMUQY49Tx00nisoQd2Yb8BPfyeM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.65.17 with SMTP id s17mr287154wak.100.1265819441884; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:30:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:30:41 -0800 Message-ID: From: Gary Richardson To: SAGE mailing list X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=4% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:55:41 -0000 This thread peaked my interest. Last night I spent about an hour getting IPv6 going on my home network using an wrt54g that was already running OpenWRT. I used http://www.757.org/~joat/wiki/index.php/IPv6_on_the_WRT54G_via_OpenWRT as a reference and everything seems to be running smoothly. I'm able to get to http://ipv6.google.com from my Macs. Going to http://ipv6.net/ seems to be random about whether it reports my ipv4 or ipv6 address. On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 3:18 AM, Jens Link wrote: > "David Magda" writes: > > > For IPv6, does anyone know equipment that supports it? I'm pretty sure > > that Apple's routers have good support for it, but what about other > > manufacturers of routers (Dlink, Netgear, etc.)? > > I have a Cisco 871 at home which works quite well. OpenWRT supports IPv6 > in some (all?) versions. > > AVM (http://www.avm.de/en/index.php3) has a beta firmware for some of > their routers which offers very good IPv6 support. > > Jens > P.S. If you're going the Cisco way don't buy an 861 if you want to use > IPv6. It's the only model with no IPv6 support. > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | > | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From matt@ryanczak.org Wed Feb 10 09:10:23 2010 Received: from zap.planetfoo.org (zap.planetfoo.org [70.164.19.160]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AHANPs043353 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:10:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@ryanczak.org) Received: from [192.168.35.85] (pool-74-96-117-155.washdc.fios.verizon.net [74.96.117.155]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zap.planetfoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 294D24B0558 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:10:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B72E878.302@ryanczak.org> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:10:16 -0500 From: Matt Ryanczak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9pre) Gecko/20100206 Lightning/1.0b1 Shredder/3.0.2pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:10:23 -0000 On 02/10/2010 11:30 AM, Gary Richardson wrote: > I'm able to get to http://ipv6.google.com from my Macs. Going to > http://ipv6.net/ seems to be random about whether it reports my ipv4 or ipv6 > address. > > OSX (Snow leopard) does weird stuff with IPv6. It seems to try to connect to both the v4 and v6 address of a host and it uses which ever ACKs first. It makes testing v6 stuff interesting :) ~Matt From brent@netomata.com Wed Feb 10 09:54:27 2010 Received: from mail-iw0-f176.google.com (mail-iw0-f176.google.com [209.85.223.176]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AHsRhp044539 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:54:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brent@netomata.com) Received: by iwn6 with SMTP id 6so284641iwn.15 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:54:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.147.199 with SMTP id m7mr931168ibv.87.1265824461685; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:54:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B72E878.302@ryanczak.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <4B72E878.302@ryanczak.org> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:54:21 -0800 Message-ID: From: Brent Chapman To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:54:28 -0000 On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Matt Ryanczak wrote: > On 02/10/2010 11:30 AM, Gary Richardson wrote: > > I'm able to get to http://ipv6.google.com from my Macs. Going to > > http://ipv6.net/ seems to be random about whether it reports my ipv4 or > ipv6 > > address. > > > > > OSX (Snow leopard) does weird stuff with IPv6. It seems to try to > connect to both the v4 and v6 address of a host and it uses which ever > ACKs first. It makes testing v6 stuff interesting :) I would expect this to vary by application... That seems to be the behavior that I'm seeing, anyway. "ssh", for example, prefers IPv6 if there is an AAAA record published; it definitely doesn't seem to try both the IPv4 and IPv6 addresses simultaneously. Here's some interesting info about IPv6 in Mac OS X: http://ipv6int.net/systems/mac_os_x-ipv6.html -Brent -- Brent Chapman Netomata, Inc. -- www.netomata.com Making networks more cost-effective, reliable, and flexible by automating network configuration From dsf@catbert.org Wed Feb 10 09:57:40 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AHvekO044627 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:57:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dsf@catbert.org) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [66.220.1.91]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1AHvb6M012879 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:57:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id A15C92C24D; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:57:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:57:37 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: David Magda Message-ID: <20100210175737.GA31811@catbert.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209144452.GB27678@catbert.org> <56094.207.61.230.154.1265733183.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <56094.207.61.230.154.1265733183.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:57:41 -0000 Hot Diggety! David Magda was rumored to have written: > > For the people who have implemented IPv6, is it "better" to start from (a) > the outside-in, or (b) internally first, and then going out? I'm personally more fond of option 'a' than 'b', though Tom Limoncelli's recent suggestion (which we looked at a while ago and agreed was good) is also another way to tackle it. Of note, these options works best if it's implemented before the need becomes critical. That won't be for a while yet, but would suck if I had to put together network, firewall, host, app, staff training, user education in a majorly compressed timeframe. YMMV and all that jazz. An incremental approach is definitely most ideal. I personally like to get something going network-wise first, followed by at least basic firewall or router ACL v6 rules, then DNS servers listening on tcp6 sockets immediately afterwards, then fleshing out 'all the rest' bit by bit in prioritized groups for groups of apps or servers. That makes it a more manageable task and spread over time. In the early days, native v6 wasn't an option. So we set up tunnelled v6. Not the most optimal solution but it was good enough for getting us past the initial network validation period, and also allowed me to work on the server end of things in parallel. Then down the road, once native v6 was available and rock solid stable, we switched over to that and life was good. Tunnelled v6 may not be such so attractive if tunnels involves flinging packets through a remote data center -- if apps are latency sensitive, they _may_ need to wait for native v6 service. But wasn't really a problem since we didn't load the tunnels with latency-sensitive traffic during the early bringup phase. -Dan From dsf@catbert.org Wed Feb 10 10:29:30 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AITUru045256 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:29:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dsf@catbert.org) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [66.220.1.91]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1AITRmx013870 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:29:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id 888C42C24D; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:29:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:29:27 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: David Magda Message-ID: <20100210182927.GB31811@catbert.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:29:31 -0000 Hot Diggety! David Magda was rumored to have written: > > For IPv6, does anyone know equipment that supports it? I'm pretty sure > that Apple's routers have good support for it, but what about other > manufacturers of routers (Dlink, Netgear, etc.)? The list of documented out-of-the-box mfr-supported wireless access points that supports IPv6 is a little on the short side for my liking: http://www.sixxs.net/wiki/Routers There's probably more, just either not known or documented. Apple's Airport Extreme Base Station is the best known of the major mfrs. Can't say I was wild about the price but after some Amazon gift certificates, it's now about $60 for me which is much more palatable. I'm actually a little disappointed with my Linksys WRT300N AP since it's been decent enough for *all* purposes _except_ supporting IP proto 41 (IPv6-in-IPv4) where these packets just simply gets dropped. Pigs will fly _before_ my home ISP supports v6 natively. :-) At $WORK, I've got native v6 which is sweet. $HOME, well, there's HE's tunnelbroker. The WRT54G is the best known AP for supporting v6, especially with an OpenWRT firmware. But I'm reluctant to deal with replacing the firmware with a third party one even though I'm technically capable of it. Besides, having had a taste of 802.11n, there's no going back. :-) > I have an old-ish Dlink that I've load the third-party Tomato firmware on, > but it doesn't support IPv6. I know some other firmware does, but I'm not > sure which would is good, and don't feel like bringing down my family's > network to tinker with things. There are forums for OpenWRT users where you could ask these questions and get the answers you seek quickly. I don't hang out there but have seen them in passing while searching, and answers seems pretty good: https://forum.openwrt.org/ They also have a hardware matrix with information on firmware support status: http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/start http://wiki.openwrt.org/oldwiki/tableofhardware > Now that 802.11n has been mostly finalized, I'd be willing to purchase a > new dual band router. Anyone know of any that support IPv6 out-of-box? (In > addition to Apple's, which are a bit pricey.) Or any 11n routers that are > well-supported (e.g., WPA2) by third-party firmware? Be careful about one thing that I discovered while doing research on this earlier: some mfr-supported devices do some really funky stuff. One established an automatic IPv6 tunnel -- coupled with v6 autodiscovery by workstations, ended up sending users' traffic to another continent with no known way to disable this odd behavior. With a few other devices, they support v6 but provide no configuration for it. Additionally, with some devices, *which* revision of the unit it is, sometimes that turns into a show-stopper issue for v6 tunnels. Apple's AEBS is a little on the minimal side, config-wise for v6, but at least it's there and more importantly, it works as advertised from what I've read. If the AEBS is based on Darwin under the hood, then it's probably logical it's got v6 support as Darwin has supported v6 since around 2002-2003. I don't feel like being a v6 beta tester for mfrs' supported devices, and don't want to risk being blacklisted by Amazon for life with too many returns (threshold can be low sometimes). So I'm sticking with known solid devices and manufacturers. -Dan P.S. Tip for folks looking at IPv6 service, even tunnelled -- don't forget to configure ip6tables (or pf or ...)! I see too many people lock down their v4 config but inexplicably leave v6 wide open (ignorance? who knows) and that gives the blackhats a field day digging around. From jsbillin@umich.edu Wed Feb 10 10:37:39 2010 Received: from tombraider.mr.itd.umich.edu (smtp.mail.umich.edu [141.211.93.161]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AIbc46045576 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:37:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jsbillin@umich.edu) Received: FROM caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu (caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu [141.213.40.47]) By tombraider.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 4B72FCF2.16FED.9727 ; Authuser jsbillin; 10 Feb 2010 13:37:38 EST Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:36:46 -0500 From: Jonathan Billings To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Message-ID: <20100210183646.GA2289@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20100210182927.GB31811@catbert.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100210182927.GB31811@catbert.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-08-17) Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:37:39 -0000 On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 01:29:27PM -0500, Dan Foster wrote: > Apple's Airport Extreme Base Station is the best known of the major mfrs. > Can't say I was wild about the price but after some Amazon gift > certificates, it's now about $60 for me which is much more palatable. I just set up my Airport Extreme yesterday, and the problem I encountered was that the latest firmware seems to have a bug in it, where if the system uses DHCP or PPPoE to get it's external IP, it simply doesn't set up ipv6, even though it is properly configured in the settings. Changing it to a Static IP made it work. -- Jonathan Billings College of Engineering - CAEN - Unix and Linux Support From prvs=065759e669=phil.pennock@globnix.org Wed Feb 10 11:58:17 2010 Received: from mx.spodhuis.org (redoubt.spodhuis.org [94.142.241.89]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1AJwGNs048136 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:58:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from prvs=065759e669=phil.pennock@globnix.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=globnix.org; s=d200912; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=0QAp+dnw8zLQmsg0N6jB19FdSzV/oqEDVwVWQ8Cgc08=; b=krismMR4v4eI5DgLN06/DbO3vbiJ5zQPjqvTogmHrucmK2LbHnOdm5PVerrA6i07RwLVeiTy0wLlx9CFU6ZdCi9chJ3hlgO5be4dtEXl5FsuJDDNndl6Lae0PqxDh9+MIOP9dW7DdSGE0sB0dCfmHvtOcUyZknWoc6mwREOtUkc=; Received: by smtp.spodhuis.org with local id 1NfIhP-000LMz-U4; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 19:58:11 +0000 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:58:11 +0100 From: Phil Pennock To: Jonathan Billings Message-ID: <20100210195811.GA81956@redoubt.spodhuis.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20100210182927.GB31811@catbert.org> <20100210183646.GA2289@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100210183646.GA2289@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu> Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 19:58:17 -0000 On 2010-02-10 at 13:36 -0500, Jonathan Billings wrote: > On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 01:29:27PM -0500, Dan Foster wrote: > > Apple's Airport Extreme Base Station is the best known of the major mfrs. > > Can't say I was wild about the price but after some Amazon gift > > certificates, it's now about $60 for me which is much more palatable. > > I just set up my Airport Extreme yesterday, and the problem I > encountered was that the latest firmware seems to have a bug in it, > where if the system uses DHCP or PPPoE to get it's external IP, it > simply doesn't set up ipv6, even though it is properly configured in > the settings. Changing it to a Static IP made it work. When I last used an Airport Extreme, it was happy to use 6to4 (RFCs 3056, 3068, 3964 & 5158) to do automatic tunnelling when obtaining an address via DHCP, but would not set up a statically configured tunnel unless its WAN link was also statically configured. Worked nicely, I'd go back in a heartbeat, if there were a sane way to stay up-to-date without a Mac computer. -Phil From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Wed Feb 10 18:57:41 2010 Received: from tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.4]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1B2vemT061554 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:57:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toip3.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.86]) by tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100211025730.WGFY11823.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip3.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:57:30 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAC77cktMQR99/2dsb2JhbAAH2XCEVQSDEw Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279336317.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.65.31.125]) by toip3.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 10 Feb 2010 21:46:08 -0500 Message-Id: From: David Magda To: Brent Chapman In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:57:29 -0500 References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <4B72E878.302@ryanczak.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 02:57:41 -0000 On Feb 10, 2010, at 12:54, Brent Chapman wrote: > On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Matt Ryanczak > wrote: > >> OSX (Snow leopard) does weird stuff with IPv6. It seems to try to >> connect to both the v4 and v6 address of a host and it uses which >> ever >> ACKs first. It makes testing v6 stuff interesting :) > > I would expect this to vary by application... That seems to be the > behavior > that I'm seeing, anyway. "ssh", for example, prefers IPv6 if there > is an > AAAA record published; it definitely doesn't seem to try both the > IPv4 and > IPv6 addresses simultaneously. > > Here's some interesting info about IPv6 in Mac OS X: > > http://ipv6int.net/systems/mac_os_x-ipv6.html Stuart Cheshire of Apple gave a talk at IETF 72 on the topic of IPv6 adoption that has elements of user experience considerations: http://www.stuartcheshire.org/IETF72/ From matt@ryanczak.org Thu Feb 11 04:58:26 2010 Received: from zap.planetfoo.org (zap.planetfoo.org [70.164.19.160]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1BCwPLu077306 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 04:58:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@ryanczak.org) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:e1ce:1:223:6cff:fe93:caf3] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:e1ce:1:223:6cff:fe93:caf3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zap.planetfoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 93A414B048A for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 07:58:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B73FEEA.8050107@ryanczak.org> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 07:58:18 -0500 From: Matt Ryanczak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9pre) Gecko/20100210 Lightning/1.0b1 Shredder/3.0.2pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <4B72E878.302@ryanczak.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 12:58:26 -0000 On 02/10/2010 12:54 PM, Brent Chapman wrote: > I would expect this to vary by application... That seems to be the behavior > that I'm seeing, anyway. "ssh", for example, prefers IPv6 if there is an > AAAA record published; it definitely doesn't seem to try both the IPv4 and > IPv6 addresses simultaneously. > > Here's some interesting info about IPv6 in Mac OS X: > > http://ipv6int.net/systems/mac_os_x-ipv6.html > > It does vary by application which makes the behavior more problematic IMHO. Give Safari or some other native Apple app a try. From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Feb 11 05:59:26 2010 Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1BDxQ19078778 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 05:59:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1BDxVnE012403; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:59:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:59:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <61540.207.61.230.154.1265896771.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <4B73FEEA.8050107@ryanczak.org> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <4B72E878.302@ryanczak.org> <4B73FEEA.8050107@ryanczak.org> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:59:31 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Matt Ryanczak" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:59:27 -0000 On Thu, February 11, 2010 07:58, Matt Ryanczak wrote: > It does vary by application which makes the behavior more problematic > IMHO. Give Safari or some other native Apple app a try. "Modern" apps that use things like Apple's Cocoa and Java can call APIs that return an object that will open a connection given a hostname and port--regardless of the IP protocol, which the application will never know or care about. Code that uses the "legacy" system calls like getaddrinfo() get a pointer back which they must iterate through--with AAAA records often being attempted first, usually working on the assumption that if an IPv6 record exists, then it's been put there explicitly and so desirable to use first. The above is the gist of Stuart Cheshire's talk (at least the part on IPv6 support in applications). From frank@crawford.emu.id.au Fri Feb 12 02:37:40 2010 Received: from ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net (ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net [150.101.137.143]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1CAbcoV012350 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:37:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frank@crawford.emu.id.au) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApsEAMO7dEs7p/2A/2dsb2JhbACbdr4zhFgEjiY Received: from ppp167-253-128.static.internode.on.net (HELO bits.crawford.emu.id.au) ([59.167.253.128]) by ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 12 Feb 2010 21:07:37 +1030 Received: from [203.16.204.7] (agc.crawford.emu.id.au [203.16.204.7]) by bits.crawford.emu.id.au (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1CAbXu7032233; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 21:37:34 +1100 From: Frank Crawford To: Jonathan Billings In-Reply-To: <20100210183646.GA2289@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20100210182927.GB31811@catbert.org> <20100210183646.GA2289@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 21:37:33 +1100 Message-ID: <1265971053.16957.3.camel@agc.crawford.emu.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.2 (2.28.2-1.fc12) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (bits.crawford.emu.id.au [203.16.204.1]); Fri, 12 Feb 2010 21:37:35 +1100 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at bits.crawford.emu.id.au X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.0 (2010-01-18) on bits.crawford.emu.id.au Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:37:41 -0000 On Wed, 2010-02-10 at 13:36 -0500, Jonathan Billings wrote: > On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 01:29:27PM -0500, Dan Foster wrote: > > Apple's Airport Extreme Base Station is the best known of the major mfrs. > > Can't say I was wild about the price but after some Amazon gift > > certificates, it's now about $60 for me which is much more palatable. > > I just set up my Airport Extreme yesterday, and the problem I > encountered was that the latest firmware seems to have a bug in it, > where if the system uses DHCP or PPPoE to get it's external IP, it > simply doesn't set up ipv6, even though it is properly configured in > the settings. Changing it to a Static IP made it work. I don't believe that Airports support DHCPv6 (which is a different protocol after all to DHCP). It does support IPv6 configured through router advertisements and autoconfiguration. I remember seeing somewhere that Apple developers are complaining about supporting more address configuration protocols, and so didn't intent to support DHCPv6. Regards Frank From brontolinux@gmail.com Fri Feb 12 03:41:33 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1CBfXdC014404 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:41:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brontolinux@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ew0-f227.google.com (mail-ew0-f227.google.com [209.85.219.227]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1CBfU3l000369 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:41:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by ewy27 with SMTP id 27so2441052ewy.18 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:41:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=m1pVJ7/JeObQYTBoo3hdj07ZuOW/1Ez/KeoUy+7Qw1o=; b=mrdPOY0EqxWm2LHx/zyy3GMwOKw5x6ImVC3b94yH+9pgSSH4dPbUedmzWYcuZWe5hG 9ZJpGVfIms4Yu22vhdIR+1j2/sTesRG1AkupZUv76tZ15dwO7iFnktH5JcYz9pG5C964 WebRuv1xnLhBuJ38zHnTC8Is43FxWPVSJjOZ8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=LUEjGASnw0FliYGuSyWKhAoHlTBJ3eAkMl/3J+KptJjUNFF4RHh7f2NReA07u/0H8N E0/aRZlO6vK07TafObflDu+VAjxo7Vqx0Z9VB+Oj/gLquZJvSsEaEQ+bhRM0CAkn0kEX smlT90n+XxUoC2XfFYVV8M1PFTGGGU+sWsLec= Received: by 10.213.97.25 with SMTP id j25mr54539ebn.12.1265974884186; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:41:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.20.18.50? (pat-tdc.opera.com [213.236.208.22]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 28sm7938385eye.39.2010.02.12.03.41.23 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:41:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B753E5D.6090908@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:41:17 +0100 From: Marco Marongiu User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Subject: [SAGE] Importing an existing environment into OpenQRM X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:41:34 -0000 Hi there I am going through the documentation of OpenQRM 4.6 and it looks great! I'd be glad if those of you that are actively using it (or did in the past) could share their experience about it, be it a positive or a negative one. Besides, I can't find if it is possible to "import" an existing virtualized environment into OpenQRM. Any success stories on this? Thanks Ciao --bronto From jens@quux.de Fri Feb 12 10:03:35 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1CI3Yqf023432 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:03:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1CI3UMC010651 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3573 invoked by uid 0); 12 Feb 2010 19:03:28 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 3569, pid: 3571, t: 0.0708s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 12 Feb 2010 19:03:28 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1NfzrS-0006Qn-00 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:03:26 +0100 From: Jens Link To: "SAGE mailing list" Organization: - References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql8hkr.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <58258.207.61.230.154.1265813767.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:03:26 +0100 In-Reply-To: <58258.207.61.230.154.1265813767.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> (David Magda's message of "Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:56:07 -0500 (EST)") Message-ID: <87zl3e2uxd.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:03:35 -0000 "David Magda" writes: > I'm thinking Cisco is overkill for me. And having to deal with it at > work (though from the server side), I'd match rather go with a Juniper > solution if possible. :) Juniper is nice but their smallest router is way to big for a home connection. And they do have fans. > AVM products do not seem to be available in Canada (or even the US). I didn't check that. But they are relay big in Germany. cheers Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jens@quux.de Fri Feb 12 10:10:46 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1CIAkpt023538 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:10:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1CIAgDG010854 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:10:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 4883 invoked by uid 0); 12 Feb 2010 19:10:37 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 4880, pid: 4881, t: 0.0622s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 12 Feb 2010 19:10:37 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1NfzyN-0006aL-00 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:10:35 +0100 From: Jens Link To: SAGE mailing list Organization: - References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209144452.GB27678@catbert.org> <56094.207.61.230.154.1265733183.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <877hql9xqi.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <7d49b3d91002100845k707f26ebi7017fe0c3a12df63@mail.gmail.com> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:10:35 +0100 In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91002100845k707f26ebi7017fe0c3a12df63@mail.gmail.com> (Tom Limoncelli's message of "Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:45:34 -0800") Message-ID: <87vde22ulg.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:10:46 -0000 Tom Limoncelli writes: > Another way to do "outside -> in" is to get your company's external > web server accessible via IPv6. This forces you to deal with all the > ISP issues, routing, etc. I don't see much difference to my approach. You have to deal with routing and firewalling first. Then you move on to the services. > There are big benefits to being able to do the conversions in small, > incremental steps. That true. Changing to many things at once will most probably break things and will lead IPv6 agnostic colleagues to hate IPv6 even more and your management will probably not support more work on IPv6 until absolutely necessary (and then you are back to doing all at once and you'll be probably make more mistakes). Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gmd@kurai.org Fri Feb 12 10:18:17 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1CIIGtO023662 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:18:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmd@kurai.org) Received: from mail-ew0-f222.google.com (mail-ew0-f222.google.com [209.85.219.222]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1CIIDeJ011066 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:18:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by ewy22 with SMTP id 22so1419149ewy.30 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:18:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.97.25 with SMTP id j25mr332714ebn.12.1265998678019; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:17:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:17:57 -0500 Message-ID: <257bbce41002121017h636d4703p57b4e666131ecd39@mail.gmail.com> From: Graham Dunn To: David Magda Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:18:17 -0000 On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 10:56 AM, David Magda wrote: > > For IPv6, does anyone know equipment that supports it? I'm pretty sure > that Apple's routers have good support for it, but what about other > manufacturers of routers (Dlink, Netgear, etc.)? > I just set up a m0n0wall box on a Soekris Engineering net4801 to work with a ipv6 tunnel through HE. Docs: http://www.tunnelbroker.net/forums/index.php?topic=415.0 Whee, dancing turtle :) From frank@crawford.emu.id.au Fri Feb 12 19:42:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1D3giiY038170 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:42:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frank@crawford.emu.id.au) Received: from ipmail06.adl6.internode.on.net (ipmail06.adl6.internode.on.net [150.101.137.145]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1D3geKL021853 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:42:43 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApwEAJeqdUs7p/2A/2dsb2JhbACDBJh+h3WnHo89AoEtgk5bBA Received: from ppp167-253-128.static.internode.on.net (HELO bits.crawford.emu.id.au) ([59.167.253.128]) by ipmail06.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 13 Feb 2010 14:07:32 +1030 Received: from [203.16.204.8] (pbc.crawford.emu.id.au [203.16.204.8]) by bits.crawford.emu.id.au (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1D3bNff019946; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 14:37:24 +1100 From: Frank Crawford To: SAGE mailing list In-Reply-To: <257bbce41002121017h636d4703p57b4e666131ecd39@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <257bbce41002121017h636d4703p57b4e666131ecd39@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 14:37:23 +1100 Message-ID: <1266032243.17393.23.camel@pbc.crawford.emu.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.2 (2.28.2-1.fc12) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (bits.crawford.emu.id.au [203.16.204.1]); Sat, 13 Feb 2010 14:37:24 +1100 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at bits.crawford.emu.id.au X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.0 (2010-01-18) on bits.crawford.emu.id.au X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=78% Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 03:42:45 -0000 On Fri, 2010-02-12 at 13:17 -0500, Graham Dunn wrote: > On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 10:56 AM, David Magda wrote: > > > > For IPv6, does anyone know equipment that supports it? I'm pretty sure > > that Apple's routers have good support for it, but what about other > > manufacturers of routers (Dlink, Netgear, etc.)? > > > > I just set up a m0n0wall box on a Soekris Engineering net4801 to work > with a ipv6 tunnel through HE. > > Docs: http://www.tunnelbroker.net/forums/index.php?topic=415.0 > > Whee, dancing turtle :) Dancing turtles are nice, but ssh'ing to all my internal systems on IPv6 addresses is more difficult. Autoconfiguration is only good if you don't want to try and connect back to a box. Don't get me wrong, it is all do-able, but the current major selling points for IPv6 are also issues for deployment in medium size organisations. Big organisations will have staff to work around it, small ones will just use autoconfig, but medium sized ones will be caught for a while. IPv6 has been well designed from a network engineering perspective, but we are now moving into the area of deployment, system management (not network management) and use, and there are lots of gaps needing to be filled in. Expect to find lots of places that need some workarounds to be put in place. Frank ______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- ac3 Suite G16, Bay 7, Locomotive Workshop Phone: 02 9209 4600 Australian Technology Park Fax: 02 9209 4611 Eveleigh NSW 1430 From dhanks@gmail.com Mon Feb 15 08:58:13 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1FGwDRv030715 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:58:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhanks@gmail.com) Received: from mail-px0-f191.google.com (mail-px0-f191.google.com [209.85.216.191]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1FGwAQU023433 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:58:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by pxi29 with SMTP id 29so1150597pxi.1 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:58:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=AGTf5LBXpcnKzdPA0VjN5B4UH9qhXMFl/LEFPZuahW0=; b=OvGRwor0zQUzWLwp/sNpZUdKyT5VwLfALL8KZcWB3wKo2Rdatb2KRHPaB1zasdqLQU XbXXaLy8+Q1scE5Eyaug/PVFCMU6ZDVfPBOETQGXq0vD5pLpyQgSrpM2UICs7KjMHhqJ aXVqG0PU/A0fcQFam4g2rVsBXYRRJLg9P8mvY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=lOU2lqYyHtZlnME0o7vN3KSblEZGr9UD07lSaMa4wihRJ3uZ3pofnTLV1wvh7P/XZT tCQYiK6U1Ef5LpRSL5eltbEYZNE0kSG9SGi3V/q9KVizU8LoAFi0w2AezSEWuPVT56d8 pQnr0uuWwedAC6XF/vGDBR9Y8X50QhlxzWH78= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.116.37 with SMTP id t37mr3585531wam.228.1266253085491; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:58:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:58:05 -0800 Message-ID: <82a71f8a1002150858u3651d27aqe300c1f2f4e229a4@mail.gmail.com> From: Doug Hanks To: SAGE Members X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=4% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] Chatsworth racks / cabinets for servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:58:14 -0000 Anyone have experience with Chatsworth racks and cabinets? I'm trying to get more feedback on how people rack their servers. The two choices we're looking at are the Teraframe enclosed cabinets; and the skeleton 4-post racks with Evolution cable management on each side. We're generally looking at blade servers from IBM and HP. Also have a mix of Sun M5000s and IBM p570s. Obviously the cabinets are more self-contained, less cable management, have doors, perhaps a bit more uniform. The 4-post with cable management are bare bones, less cost, no doors, minimalist looks, better cable management, would have to use blanking panels in the front. Thoughts comments? http://www.chatsworth.com/Product_Docs/TERAFRAME_SIGNATURE_BROCHURE.pdf http://www.chatsworth.com/Product_Docs/TERAFRAME_800MM_DATASHEET.pdf http://www.chatsworth.com/uploadedfiles/files/15251_DATASHEET.pdf http://www.chatsworth.com/Common/PageTemplates/PageMain.aspx?id=41384 http://www.chatsworth.com/uploadedfiles/files/35514_DATASHEET.pdf -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From prvs=466280384a=xela@mit.edu Mon Feb 15 14:00:09 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1FM09Ni039874 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:00:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from prvs=466280384a=xela@mit.edu) Received: from dmz-mailsec-scanner-4.mit.edu (DMZ-MAILSEC-SCANNER-4.MIT.EDU [18.9.25.15]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1FM05A1000006 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:00:08 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 1209190f-b7bbfae0000035e9-85-4b79c3e088e1 Received: from mailhub-auth-2.mit.edu (MAILHUB-AUTH-2.MIT.EDU [18.7.62.36]) by dmz-mailsec-scanner-4.mit.edu (Symantec Brightmail Gateway) with SMTP id 0B.C2.13801.0E3C97B4; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:00:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.103]) by mailhub-auth-2.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.9.2) with ESMTP id o1FM006B025608; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:00:00 -0500 Received: from localhost (LINERVA.MIT.EDU [18.181.0.232]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as xela@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.12.4) with ESMTP id o1FM0JV3003402; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:00:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <201002152200.o1FM0JV3003402@outgoing.mit.edu> To: Doug Hanks In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:58:05 PST." <82a71f8a1002150858u3651d27aqe300c1f2f4e229a4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:59:59 -0500 From: "Carl Alexander" X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAhLTv4MS08pf X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Chatsworth racks / cabinets for servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:00:09 -0000 > Anyone have experience with Chatsworth racks and cabinets? Yes. In general, they're about as good as you'll find > I'm trying to get more feedback on how people rack their servers. The two > choices we're looking at are the Teraframe enclosed cabinets; and the > skeleton 4-post racks with Evolution cable management on each side. > > We're generally looking at blade servers from IBM and HP. Also have a mix > of Sun M5000s and IBM p570s. > > Obviously the cabinets are more self-contained, less cable management, have > doors, perhaps a bit more uniform. Cabinets generally have less _room_ for cable management, but not less _need_. If anything, they need _more_: it's just way too easy for the back of a cabinet to turn into a rats' nest. In a server room (or datacenter cage) where I control who has access, the only reason I would consider using cabinets would be if I had a severe enough heat dissipation issue that I wanted to force air through the cabinets, bottom to top. (Which, given that you're talking about blade servers, that may in fact be an issue for you.) Otherwise, I would always go for open racks, and space them far enough apart to use rack-side cable management. > The 4-post with cable management are bare bones, less cost, no doors, > minimalist looks, better cable management, would have to use blanking panels > in the front. I've used the fixed-rail version of the "Adjustable Rail ServerRack:" the "QuadraRack Server Frame" (www.chatsworth.com/Product_Docs/15053_DATASHEET.pdf) and would happily use them again. I suppose the adjustable rail version may have some advantages, especially if you're going to be filling racks with identical machines. But I've rarely had a real problem mounting a machine in the fixed-rail version --- and none of those problems would have been solved by adjustable rails. (For the sake of completeness, those problems were: (1) Machines without rail kits (i.e. some machines left over from the 90s that mounted by wings attached to the front of the chassis, with no rear support.) (2) Commodity machines with brand-X rail kits that needed to be attached to the rack from the _inside_ (i.e. we had to mount the cage nuts with their flanges facing _into_ the rack --- having a wiry young contortionist of a junior sysadmin to screw the rail kit in place was also useful.)) (As an aside (since the pdfs you pointed to discuss both types), I'll suggest you avoid racks with pre-tapped holes and stick with square holes and cage nuts. Yes, they're a pain --- but racks with pre-tapped holes turn out to be even more pain, not least because computer manufacturers have a broader range of interpretations of "19 inches" than you would imagine. The fraction of an inch slop in cage nuts can be the difference between being able to mount a machine or not. Also, cage nuts can be made a lot less annoying with a tool such as http://store.cablesplususa.com/cagenuttool.html.) (And another aside --- why would you "have to" use blanking panels?) In an open rack, you don't need to maintain enclosure for the sake of air flow. And as far as seeking neatness in the machine room, there are plenty of other things you can do that have practical as well as aesthetic valye, from staying on top of cable routing to keeping the floor clean.) Welcome to the wonderful world of machine-room planning. Have fun! ---Alex From sage-list-psa@otoh.org Mon Feb 15 14:57:36 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1FMva4k041188 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:57:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sage-list-psa@otoh.org) Received: from pmon001.zetta.net (ssg-corp.zetta.net [74.114.124.9]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1FMvXJK000927 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:57:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from bilby.zetta.net (bilby.zetta.net [10.10.1.16]) by pmon001.zetta.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6015720001C90; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:48:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: by bilby.zetta.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EA89CC4D0DFA3; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:47:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:47:26 -0800 From: Paul Armstrong To: Carl Alexander Message-ID: <20100215224726.GA5882@otoh.org> References: <82a71f8a1002150858u3651d27aqe300c1f2f4e229a4@mail.gmail.com> <201002152200.o1FM0JV3003402@outgoing.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201002152200.o1FM0JV3003402@outgoing.mit.edu> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Chatsworth racks / cabinets for servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:57:37 -0000 At 2010-02-15T16:59-0500, Carl Alexander wrote: > (As an aside (since the pdfs you pointed to discuss both types), I'll > suggest you avoid racks with pre-tapped holes and stick with square > holes and cage nuts. And, if you strip a cage nut, you throw it out. If you strip a pre-tapped hole you have to re-tap it larger, lose the ability to screw machines in correctly or not plug anything into that hole. Also, make sure you get M6 nuts and bolts. Just go order a pile of them and have someone check regularly (weekly) to see if you need re-ordering. There's nothing more annoying than having mixed measurement systems in your server room because someone went and got whatever was available when they ran out and having a single standard for all server rooms around the world is more fun than having multiple standards. Paul From meenoo@gmail.com Mon Feb 15 15:28:12 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1FNSCM7042979 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:28:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from meenoo@gmail.com) Received: from ey-out-1920.google.com (ey-out-1920.google.com [74.125.78.148]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1FNS8iC001344 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by ey-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 4so1186424eyg.36 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:28:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=A4/cZcCIZiYqQbjIoASb8unKMiyzMz/0nwZ5tvNVJJQ=; b=EgMhTmXi41kvbYKBhHD5/ThtKHIwcqfObmNpcSn1c+4BGRfTxIcwDdH0QMoPMCMLTy D4w7qFA/udDjrPNNAG1SFlg7OyU72G1xsRVH+32B4Nsnyh19OAIsVaj/NrhjyEcfeEnn dbqNo1KvBSEg2eUfQvHEo0AGClsFdiYv9Fw3A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=AeMUSvhFXz6kAcHC7HFXKzBLM4NWlUGOZDgOcwVjaz8jY4xW9Pu7Mld7NIjALvr6l8 NHLcZJGvB42p9qGDFKtjN2prSTXkyhvWg2sqCymUnh321o2SziVYrkK7X1ZVYMj84b7R 4lCzsZjKGOkYwhyGZE5ONiiPqiAwVT9YsOd74= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.1.209 with SMTP id 17mr3375885ebg.70.1266276487607; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:28:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1002150858u3651d27aqe300c1f2f4e229a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <82a71f8a1002150858u3651d27aqe300c1f2f4e229a4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:28:07 -0500 Message-ID: From: Meenoo Shivdasani To: Doug Hanks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1FNSCM7042979 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Chatsworth racks / cabinets for servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 23:28:12 -0000 On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Doug Hanks wrote: > I'm trying to get more feedback on how people rack their servers.  The two > choices we're looking at are the Teraframe enclosed cabinets; and the > skeleton 4-post racks with Evolution cable management on each side. Chatsworth makes nice stuff. One consideration is whether or not you will ever need to secure the servers physically -- if so, then cabinets are the answer. It also makes it less likely that someone will push a button or pull out a cable accidentally. That said, you get much better cable management options with the 4-post open racks and since everything is on display there's (theoretically) more of an impetus to keep things neat and un-rats-nest-like. M From philiph@pobox.com Mon Feb 15 16:52:35 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1G0qY8a044902 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:52:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from philiph@pobox.com) Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1G0qVEr002986 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:52:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.internal [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F24CE0E75; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:52:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from web7.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.216]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:52:31 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=message-id:from:to:cc:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:references:subject:in-reply-to:date; s=smtpout; bh=TfeqA/ki4s8jVre0AhxmNMi7Ffw=; b=a80O8BYdq4r1tb/oqLkkInTjqCHZM+VndQ8dOx1ZuU3uzQ7j2Ka+ue8SIyo/JcTW+vnY6pNFLp2LByHyN5ehW4OdpNu6R3FYDg6PKtAt46I/hmkI6UQDK3Ts6lSsHybeQjf/k70gSPG5To+W7XlozLHCZO+Pnaid0m6PU6IvHsU= Received: by web7.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 3EE7071DFA; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:52:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1266281551.16736.1360156049@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: gapqKQSY0swpJga4ErWDCov2Z3geNmuOCC9OMiMA0MkA 1266281551 From: "Philip J. Hollenback" To: "Meenoo Shivdasani" , "Doug Hanks" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface References: <82a71f8a1002150858u3651d27aqe300c1f2f4e229a4@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:52:31 -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1G0qY8a044902 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Chatsworth racks / cabinets for servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 00:52:35 -0000 On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:28 -0500, "Meenoo Shivdasani" wrote: > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Doug Hanks wrote: > > > I'm trying to get more feedback on how people rack their servers.  The two > > choices we're looking at are the Teraframe enclosed cabinets; and the > > skeleton 4-post racks with Evolution cable management on each side. > > Chatsworth makes nice stuff. One consideration is whether or not you > will ever need to secure the servers physically -- if so, then > cabinets are the answer. It also makes it less likely that someone > will push a button or pull out a cable accidentally. That said, you > get much better cable management options with the 4-post open racks > and since everything is on display there's (theoretically) more of an > impetus to keep things neat and un-rats-nest-like. That's a good point. I've had good luck ordering and using for example APC VX racks, but without any sides or doors. That gives you some of the security of a cabinet and some of the openness of just racks. However I generally think you should secure the entire room if possible and leave the racks wide open so you can do good cable management. Obviously that isn't always possible. -- Philip J. Hollenback philiph@pobox.com www.hollenback.net From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Tue Feb 16 07:01:38 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GF1bHE065067 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:01:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1GF1Yst029255 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:01:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1GF1dIO007812; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:01:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:01:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <49404.207.61.230.154.1266332499.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a1002150858u3651d27aqe300c1f2f4e229a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <82a71f8a1002150858u3651d27aqe300c1f2f4e229a4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:01:39 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Doug Hanks" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Chatsworth racks / cabinets for servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:01:38 -0000 On Mon, February 15, 2010 11:58, Doug Hanks wrote: > Anyone have experience with Chatsworth racks and cabinets? Is there a defined "nomenclature difference"? From Chatsworth's web site, it seems that racks are simple, mostly open-air, frames with four (or two) posts, with minimal extraneous material. Cabinets on the other hand can have sides panels and doors attached (though optional). Is this this correct? (I've never really considered the distinction personally.) > I'm trying to get more feedback on how people rack their servers. The two > choices we're looking at are the Teraframe enclosed cabinets; and the > skeleton 4-post racks with Evolution cable management on each side. $WORK has standardized on APC NetShelter SX racks, generally with dual APC PDUs as well (AP7864). The racks are basic and get the job done. The PDUs are metered and have Ethernet connections for monitoring and remote power cycling--there are more basic versions available as well. > We're generally looking at blade servers from IBM and HP. Also have a mix > of Sun M5000s and IBM p570s. Some of that hardware can put out a lot of heat. You may want to go with the cabinets, as they provide better isolation between the cold and hot aisles. If you're /really/ going to put out a lot of heat (>15 kW/rack), you may want to look at "passive" cooling: http://www.chatsworth.com/passivecooling http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/x/hardware/options/cooling.html http://www.sun.com/servers/cooling IBM's and Sun's products are basically giant heat sinks / radiators that plug into pre-existing piping (water or refrigerant) to transfer the heat away. This way heat is absorbed at the source, and you don't have 100F (35C) hot aisles, and don't have wind tunnels to try to move the air fast enough. Helps with the PUE as well. This appears to be where a lot of HPC installations are headed. > Obviously the cabinets are more self-contained, less cable management, > have doors, perhaps a bit more uniform. One thing to possibly consider for cable management is whether you're going to have in-rack switches or if you're going to have a patch panel in the rack. It may affect how you do cabling. Cabinets also help to keep you "honest", as if you have side panels, you're less tempted to string cable through racks. From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Tue Feb 16 07:07:02 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GF72Ha065287 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:07:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1GF6xAR029382 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:07:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1GF6nFd008203; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:06:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:06:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <50177.207.61.230.154.1266332809.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <201002152200.o1FM0JV3003402@outgoing.mit.edu> References: <201002152200.o1FM0JV3003402@outgoing.mit.edu> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:06:49 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Carl Alexander" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Chatsworth racks / cabinets for servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:07:02 -0000 On Mon, February 15, 2010 16:59, Carl Alexander wrote: > Cabinets generally have less _room_ for cable management, but not > less _need_. If anything, they need _more_: it's just way too > easy for the back of a cabinet to turn into a rats' nest. In a > server room (or datacenter cage) where I control who has access, > the only reason I would consider using cabinets would be if I had > a severe enough heat dissipation issue that I wanted to force air > through the cabinets, bottom to top. (Which, given that you're > talking about blade servers, that may in fact be an issue for you.) > > Otherwise, I would always go for open racks, and space them far > enough apart to use rack-side cable management. If you have a lot of gaps between racks and machines, do you have find you have any issues with mixing of air between the cold aisle and the hot aisle? With cabinets, I would think you would have a better "seal" between them (especially with side panels), and so the only practical place the air has to go is through them (as well as any leakage over the top). From allan@physics.umn.edu Tue Feb 16 07:24:57 2010 Received: from florence.spa.umn.edu (florence.spa.umn.edu [128.101.220.38]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GFOvgs066803 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:24:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allan@physics.umn.edu) Received: from c-75-72-245-201.hsd1.mn.comcast.net ([75.72.245.201] helo=[192.168.0.192]) by florence.spa.umn.edu with esmtpsa (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhPIB-000Bg3-Dg for sage-members@mailman.sage.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:24:51 -0600 Message-ID: <4B7AB8C3.1080608@physics.umn.edu> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:24:51 -0600 From: Graham Allan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <82a71f8a1002150858u3651d27aqe300c1f2f4e229a4@mail.gmail.com> <49404.207.61.230.154.1266332499.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <49404.207.61.230.154.1266332499.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] Chatsworth racks / cabinets for servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:24:57 -0000 On 2/16/2010 9:01 AM, David Magda wrote: > > $WORK has standardized on APC NetShelter SX racks, generally with > dual APC PDUs as well (AP7864). The racks are basic and get the job > done. The PDUs are metered and have Ethernet connections for > monitoring and remote power cycling--there are more basic versions > available as well. There are also "wide" versions of those cabinets available, which can be useful. I've started using these where there's more than a basic amount of cabling involved (eg fiber san connections etc), and using the regular width cabinets for basic compute nodes. > IBM's and Sun's products are basically giant heat sinks / radiators > that plug into pre-existing piping (water or refrigerant) to transfer > the heat away. This way heat is absorbed at the source, and you don't > have 100F (35C) hot aisles, and don't have wind tunnels to try to > move the air fast enough. Helps with the PUE as well. This appears to > be where a lot of HPC installations are headed. Maybe I'm getting off-topic, but it's also worth looking at the APC InRow cooling, in this space. I never seriously priced the IBM or other chiller doors, but I believe the APC solution is a lot less expensive, and also decouples you from having to replace all your cabinets. It worked very well for us to replace a dysfunctional DX a/c system with a bunch of chilled water APC InRow units. Graham From dquinn@gmail.com Tue Feb 16 10:50:02 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GIo2Zh072279 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:50:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dquinn@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw0-f173.google.com (mail-yw0-f173.google.com [209.85.211.173]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1GInww2006254 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:50:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by ywh3 with SMTP id 3so5283032ywh.22 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:49:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:reply-to:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Yl+7Vp0YPREOWD22+uFN+2kfB+oYhqCUxGKBFlDrS44=; b=GZt1p8cdvrmQ/aEqyiIjMgWxRyax2f6jX0lxJUYtjVQie1kEC8G8qQOwkIs5CGbL7E UkjLkVH+EvyDdmTmEFYVcRgZ66THkJn9bmVPpOpjeUYyCmRSDaCWjFBpNxLV1mD/KfBy am7YGPam6IT9GYFNEzSdSH51a4ONsOCK/VYHs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:reply-to:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=V9Ycv1Yn917T9S06a1mqSQ5E7ZTT441UUeEbNNHwl8XmjY8bbXXzKA7NSLIflQ3S3N Q8in17s+6KATiDe8iORVRN8Df+zdwIpz1S/B8x2bF6SqZ72o1DhLUwqeWcHfUOIPWo3f F+m+bxvvvLuWy/NQM4IT7WH76nKnFMyt8/Ut4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.90.47.6 with SMTP id u6mr3275209agu.22.1266346193103; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:49:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:49:53 -0800 Message-ID: From: Dana Quinn To: SAGE list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Subject: [SAGE] "measure twice, cut once" pattern with command line actions - references? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: danaq@pobox.com List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 18:50:02 -0000 I remember a discussion in a book - I believe "The Practice of System and Network Administration" (which i think of as "The Bible")... around usage patterns to avoid making silly (or disastrous) mistakes at the command line. This is especially needed when deleting files, when one bad mistaken pattern patch can really ruin your day. I briefly scanned my copy of the previous version of TPoSaNA, but couldn't find the discussion on effective usage patterns. I'd like to come up with a couple references to share with my team. Let's just say it's a timely topic right now for us. Does anyone remember where this discussion is easily? I thought it was introduced with the idea of "measure twice, cut once", but couldn't find that in the index. Also - I'd welcome pointers to any other material on this topic... it would be good to look at other material on this. Dana -- Dana Quinn danaq@pobox.com From vaserv@gmail.com Tue Feb 16 11:06:27 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GJ6Q8H072909 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:06:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vaserv@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bw0-f225.google.com (mail-bw0-f225.google.com [209.85.218.225]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1GJ6Lml011512 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:06:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz25 with SMTP id 25so431589bwz.18 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:06:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=7/6iTwfdpCTDvbKvKl+IeYAq+8yiAAACyGuOLmk4BpM=; b=ww45TT0pIUO45qq+eVwIVvNyICQ6gwyQuJeuCkQUjSvw9L8t9VOT+hXSkHexpkXMRj s/56H0Pp7wxEK57rkHLTRT+0y5owX8M3mFjwGUWmBEMyJjOWOsRjJCYKgklTdb4prwWE B2qTVIEAAiaNr9/nIp2DxW0+ZKUJxbHGCAdvA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; b=a+t3gmj54vqAcosNXW6c/M8umnB8Tdai/BG9DPQoUiH+UuFuoioHCJVyZlPhrwdWNr MJhaA2BXLNowhoWi44JGNqcVtCrrj6QJPm4w6/1W0cBICAwTaFJfXM8BXX+Z697Iy2SR zUEE/0j1QK0IGbEV1ne59JrmUsr6IE7lVgc2M= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: vaserv@gmail.com Received: by 10.103.78.36 with SMTP id f36mr5177883mul.74.1266346831823; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:00:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:00:31 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: b7677c4f8651581a Message-ID: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> From: Rus Foster To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=3% Subject: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:06:27 -0000 To current a long story short I've been in a bit of a technical rut for the last few years with work related things so now I want to do a crash course in things I've missed. Digging around I've come across the following programs that looks like it would be worth putting some time into to learn Puppet Ext4 Xen/KVM Is there anything else it would be worth me experimenting with to get myself back up to speed / other fun edgy things? cheers Rus -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/rusfoster From tal@whatexit.org Tue Feb 16 11:11:04 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GJB4h2073024 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:11:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com (mail-vw0-f41.google.com [209.85.212.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1GJB0jW013465 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:11:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws20 with SMTP id 20so349931vws.28 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:10:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.124.5 with SMTP id s5mr1118699vcr.217.1266347455317; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:10:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:10:55 -0500 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: Rus Foster Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=3% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:11:04 -0000 On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 2:00 PM, Rus Foster wrote: > To current a long story short I've been in a bit of a technical rut > for the last few years with work related things so now I want to do a > crash course in things I've missed. Digging around I've come across > the following programs that looks like it would be worth putting some > time into to learn > > Puppet > Ext4 > Xen/KVM If you are playing with Xen or KVM, let me plug http://code.google.com/p/ganeti as a framework for managing clusters easier. If you are going large, scalable web services, I would add memcache, CouchDB, and MongoDB to your list. Tom From sage-list-psa@otoh.org Tue Feb 16 11:31:29 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GJVTMC073716 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:31:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sage-list-psa@otoh.org) Received: from pmon001.zetta.net (ssg-corp.zetta.net [74.114.124.9]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1GJVQNm018976 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:31:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from bilby.zetta.net (bilby.zetta.net [10.10.1.16]) by pmon001.zetta.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C958720001BEE; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:31:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: by bilby.zetta.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0CB58C4473C6D; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:30:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:30:38 -0800 From: Paul Armstrong To: Rus Foster Message-ID: <20100216193038.GJ391@otoh.org> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:31:30 -0000 At 2010-02-16T19:00+0000, Rus Foster wrote: > To current a long story short I've been in a bit of a technical rut > for the last few years with work related things so now I want to do a > crash course in things I've missed. Digging around I've come across > the following programs that looks like it would be worth putting some > time into to learn > > Puppet > Ext4 > Xen/KVM ReviewBoard. Code reviews are a significant process improvement to bring to your team. Solaris 10 or OpenSolaris and the following features specifically: * ZFS * Dtrace * Zones * Crossbow (OpenSolaris only) OpenSolaris and Linux both have load balancers built into them now. OpenSolaris's one is easier to use but still fairly new and lacking a few features. Amazon web services may be worth learning depending on what your company does and what you're interested in getting into. If you've not played a lot with LDAP you should. I recommend (in my order of preference, others will disagree): OpenDS, Sun Directory Server and OpenLDAP. If you're interested in playing with Windows at all (or integrating with it), you _need_ to learn Active Directory properly. The hot languages at the moment are Ruby and Python if you haven't learned a language recently. Paul From kurt.buff@gmail.com Tue Feb 16 12:27:10 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GKRADv075373 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:27:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.148]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1GKR7G3020741 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:27:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so948548qwf.22 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:27:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=+wyhJoxeHeGBlIbALUIvStQMnihd5z6Mxhb3Wg7IE70=; b=xYpPBnPPa6ty1i1MFnmBEIwDWJ6ed2kSIBdnj7E9dHOhP9wlpLBRGPUh6FbkKLOZCd aLur2aIsv2zfjYsCxLgvqLVGhnEsqhiPUO0qRkEgOJ1AJjlz6BLtm5TI4G3AaXT3FJoi yIQvwRBfj+PwdDe+dR2yBec2Dw6Ab0dAb1jpo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=s4Srrz+eOFflXNOxgDt5+yHD8Y7oRNGlMSbPXb41NEGileRH4ju2b8uefM0y9hCOfm y1e2FhYnMp1uNSwJFzSCfS4wC81iOdgk0zdqvIkjwNBoOlsE1/s+nW+AyESdZSCcLP5N o9UBkYy6QLoio84i7Paozl6xXRLNvI+ZHQ4c0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.106.210 with SMTP id y18mr1142258qao.54.1266352027083; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:27:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:27:06 -0800 Message-ID: From: Kurt Buff To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:27:11 -0000 On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 11:00, Rus Foster wrote: > To current a long story short I've been in a bit of a technical rut > for the last few years with work related things so now I want to do a > crash course in things I've missed. Digging around I've come across > the following programs that looks like it would be worth putting some > time into to learn > > Puppet > Ext4 > Xen/KVM > > Is there anything else it would be worth me experimenting with to get > myself back up to speed / other fun edgy things? > > cheers > > Rus IPv6? Heh. Kurt From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Tue Feb 16 12:33:37 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GKXbnp075581 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:33:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1GKXXn4020911 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:33:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1GKXdpK006412; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:33:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:33:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:33:39 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Rus Foster" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:33:37 -0000 On Tue, February 16, 2010 14:10, Tom Limoncelli wrote: >> Puppet >> Ext4 >> Xen/KVM > > If you are playing with Xen or KVM, let me plug > http://code.google.com/p/ganeti as a framework for managing clusters > easier. For more virtualization, VMware has really gone mainstream with most data centers having major deployments (you can download it for free I think). There's also Microsoft's take on it, Hyper-V. Sun/Oracle have an open-sourced product called VirtualBox that runs on workstations. If you're running on OS X, you have two more workstation products as well: VMware Fusion and Parallels. I believe someone else mentioned Solaris 10 zones (like FreeBSD jails on steroids), and they have LDoms on their SPARC hardware. > If you are going large, scalable web services, I would add memcache, > CouchDB, and MongoDB to your list. Most start-up-like web sites also use MySQL a lot; Postgres (BSD-license) is often mentioned as well. Can the OP perhaps give a rough time line on when he (?) last really paid attention to this stuff? You may also want to go through the LISA conference archives to get an idea of major topics. Going forward, following Slashdot and Ars Technica would probably cover most of the important tech news that occurs. There are of course many sites, but I find these two have decent S:N and filter out a lot of the "gee whiz!" stuff about gadgets and such (though they hit the major things from Apple, Microsoft, etc.). I find using a new aggregator (e.g., NetNewsWire on OSX, Gmail Reader) to follow sites' RSS/Atom feeds very efficient. From tkw@southwestern.edu Tue Feb 16 13:23:38 2010 Received: from hephaestus.southwestern.edu (hephaestus.southwestern.edu [161.13.1.120]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1GLNc9r077188 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 13:23:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tkw@southwestern.edu) X-Ironport-SBRS: None X-Ironport-Group-Policy: None-$ACCEPTED_SMTPAUTH X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,486,1262584800"; d="scan'208";a="266285349" Received: from trinity.southwestern.edu (HELO [161.13.2.22]) ([161.13.2.22]) by hephaestus.southwestern.edu with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 16 Feb 2010 15:23:34 -0600 Message-ID: <4B7B0CD5.70604@southwestern.edu> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:23:33 -0600 From: "Todd K. Watson" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] Chatsworth racks / cabinets for servers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 21:23:39 -0000 I actually have 5 Chatsworth cabinets that are shipping from NC today. We're about to move into a new data center and the Chatsworth Passive Cooling cabinets are what we're using. I have an N-series TeraFrame that will house a Catalyst 6509. It's designed specifically for Cisco's side to side ventilation. The remaining cabinets are F-series TeraFrame for our server farm. Our architect changed our cooling design and we believe we are going to get better cooling performance with higher performance and lower energy utilization from our CRAC's dedicated to the space. The building will hopefully attain LEED Gold or better certification, and they're hoping the use of these cabinets will help earn points. In addition to Chatsworth being highly recommended by our hardware vendor, we're fortunate that their office with their brand new showroom and testing facility is just across town in Georgetown, TX where we're located. They built this facility so they can bring in clients and demonstrate their entire product line and also do specific design testing for various data center circumstances and products. If you are considering a very large-scale purchase and it's in your budget, I'd recommend setting up a visit. -- Todd K. Watson Associate Director, Systems and Networks Southwestern University, Georgetown, TX From tal@whatexit.org Tue Feb 16 20:06:52 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1H46p9V088428 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:06:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com (mail-vw0-f41.google.com [209.85.212.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1H46mva029653 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:06:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws20 with SMTP id 20so486043vws.28 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:06:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.123.105 with SMTP id o41mr4465297vcr.70.1266379603101; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:06:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:06:43 -0500 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91002162006h2996eacfm58aed15e2e1e40c9@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: danaq@pobox.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=3% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1H46p9V088428 Cc: SAGE list Subject: Re: [SAGE] "measure twice, cut once" pattern with command line actions - references? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:06:52 -0000 On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Dana Quinn wrote: > I remember a discussion in a book - I believe "The Practice of System > and Network Administration" (which i think of as "The Bible")... > around usage patterns to avoid making silly (or disastrous) mistakes > at the command line.  This is especially needed when deleting files, > when one bad mistaken pattern patch can really ruin your day. > > I briefly scanned my copy of the previous version of TPoSaNA, but > couldn't find the discussion on effective usage patterns.  I'd like to > come up with a couple references to share with my team.   Let's just > say it's a timely topic right now for us.  Does anyone remember where > this discussion is easily?  I thought it was introduced with the idea > of "measure twice, cut once", but couldn't find that in the index. > > Also - I'd welcome pointers to any other material on this topic... it > would be good to look at other material on this. > > Dana > > -- > Dana Quinn > danaq@pobox.com Dana, Thanks for the compliments about TPoSaNA! I think you are referring to "Learning from Carpenters": 1st edition: page 96: Section 5.1.3 2nd edition: page 210: Section 16.1.3 Related things that come to mind: (1) Put "echo" in front of the command line to test it. First type: echo rm foo* If that outputs the files you expect, then press cursor-UP, remove the "echo", and press RETURN. Don't re-type the line. Use command line editing to repeat the same line without the "echo". (2) Build up command lines one part at a time. Don't type a long Bash one-liner all at once. Keep adding to the line, testing it along the way. Here's a post of mine where I built up a very long command line: http://lopsanj.org/pipermail/lopsanj/2008-August/001881.html And an example of doing that in Time Management for System Administrators: http://books.google.com/books?id=ENIZL_MffqsC&lpg=PA179&ots=9m2JxUTldu&dq=limoncelli%20virus%20in%20shell&pg=PA178#v=onepage&q=&f=false (3) Write the test before you do the solution. Suppose you have a bunch of machines that all need their BIOS upgraded. Add to your monitoring system to test if the BIOS is at the new version. Now start upgrading all the BIOSs until the alert is no longer "red" or alerting. If you send a machine for repairs and it comes back with an old BIOS (happens all the time to me!) then you will start to get alerts. (4) Document what you dislike doing. People are bad at the things they dislike doing, or get bored doing. Turn them into checklists so that you can do them in your sleep. (TPOSANA, 2nd edition, page 246; similar point made in TM4SA's documentation chapter) Checklists are my current big favorite thing to talk about. The book "The Checklist Manifesto" (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0805091742/tomontime-20) should be required reading for people that are trying to improve the operational aspects of an organization. Hope that helps, Tom -- Computer and network administrators... Spread the word! LOPSA New Jersey Professional IT Community Conference New Brunswick, NJ, May 7-8, 2010 -- http://picconf.org From rac@cisco.com Tue Feb 16 22:46:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1H6k8e0092596 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:46:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rac@cisco.com) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1H6k5Tv002393 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:46:07 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAP8ee0urR7H+/2dsb2JhbACbAHSlX5gDhFsEgxQa X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,489,1262563200"; d="scan'208,217";a="484151365" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Feb 2010 06:45:59 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1H6jxTn018782; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 06:45:59 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-239.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.105]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:45:59 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:45:58 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] "measure twice, cut once" pattern with command line actions - references? Thread-Index: AcqviC8fO28kdoJfQcysQ3nSxWxE9gAFK2st From: "Richard Chycoski (rac)" To: "Tom Limoncelli" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Feb 2010 06:45:59.0411 (UTC) FILETIME=[DD2F6430:01CAAF9C] X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE list Subject: Re: [SAGE] "measure twice, cut once" pattern with command line actions - references? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 06:46:08 -0000 One of my favourite techniques when using 'for' loops is to put only = 'echo' outputs in the for loop first, then up-cursor and edit the loop = to become 'live'. I've saved myself many painful recovery sessions with = this... Of course, you have to be in a modern shell (like bash) to be able to do = this. On older machines you do the same thing by putting the commands in = a file, executing the script, then editing to remove the 'echo' = commands. For more complex loops this is still my preference, it's = easier to read a (properly indented) script, and nice editors like vim = can help pinpoint your script's inadequacies in 'living colour' - you = *do* turn on syntax chaecking, don't you :-) The latter point is - let the computer do as much of the checking as = possible. It will always attempt to do exactly what you told it, and can = usually be relied upon to produce the GO part of GIGO if you prompt it = to! When you're tired, distracted, under pressure or other issues, this is = the time to make sure to tke the time to test before execution, and is = the advice most often ignored. The was an extremely seasoned radiotelegraph operator who was capable of = comfortably sending and receiving Morse Code at around 60 words per = minute. (Being capable of 25 WPM is considered to be 'good' to ' = proficiency for professional operators.) When asked what it was like = sending emegency messages at that speed he replied that he simply didn't = do that - he sent emergency traffic at 20-25 WPM - to ensure that most = any proficient operator could copy the message the first time, and that = interference would have less impact, and that he would be more likely to = send the message without corrections. Ratther than: Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe... Code with care before hitting return!!! - Richard -----Original Message----- From: Tom Limoncelli [mailto:tal@whatexit.org] Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 08:17 PM Pacific Standard Time To: danaq@pobox.com Cc: SAGE list Subject: Re: [SAGE] "measure twice,cut once" pattern with command line = actions - references? On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Dana Quinn wrote: > I remember a discussion in a book - I believe "The Practice of System > and Network Administration" (which i think of as "The Bible")... > around usage patterns to avoid making silly (or disastrous) mistakes > at the command line. =A0This is especially needed when deleting files, > when one bad mistaken pattern patch can really ruin your day. > > I briefly scanned my copy of the previous version of TPoSaNA, but > couldn't find the discussion on effective usage patterns. =A0I'd like = to > come up with a couple references to share with my team. =A0 Let's just > say it's a timely topic right now for us. =A0Does anyone remember = where > this discussion is easily? =A0I thought it was introduced with the = idea > of "measure twice, cut once", but couldn't find that in the index. > > Also - I'd welcome pointers to any other material on this topic... it > would be good to look at other material on this. > > Dana > > -- > Dana Quinn > danaq@pobox.com Dana, Thanks for the compliments about TPoSaNA! I think you are referring to "Learning from Carpenters": 1st edition: page 96: Section 5.1.3 2nd edition: page 210: Section 16.1.3 Related things that come to mind: (1) Put "echo" in front of the command line to test it. First type: echo rm foo* If that outputs the files you expect, then press cursor-UP, remove the "echo", and press RETURN. Don't re-type the line. Use command line editing to repeat the same line without the "echo". (2) Build up command lines one part at a time. Don't type a long Bash one-liner all at once. Keep adding to the line, testing it along the way. Here's a post of mine where I built up a very long command line: http://lopsanj.org/pipermail/lopsanj/2008-August/001881.html And an example of doing that in Time Management for System = Administrators: http://books.google.com/books?id=3DENIZL_MffqsC&lpg=3DPA179&ots=3D9m2JxUT= ldu&dq=3Dlimoncelli%20virus%20in%20shell&pg=3DPA178#v=3Donepage&q=3D&f=3D= false (3) Write the test before you do the solution. Suppose you have a bunch of machines that all need their BIOS upgraded. Add to your monitoring system to test if the BIOS is at the new version. Now start upgrading all the BIOSs until the alert is no longer "red" or alerting. If you send a machine for repairs and it comes back with an old BIOS (happens all the time to me!) then you will start to get alerts. (4) Document what you dislike doing. People are bad at the things they dislike doing, or get bored doing. Turn them into checklists so that you can do them in your sleep. (TPOSANA, 2nd edition, page 246; similar point made in TM4SA's documentation chapter) Checklists are my current big favorite thing to talk about. The book "The Checklist Manifesto" (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0805091742/tomontime-20) should be required reading for people that are trying to improve the operational aspects of an organization. Hope that helps, Tom --=20 Computer and network administrators... Spread the word! LOPSA New Jersey Professional IT Community Conference New Brunswick, NJ, May 7-8, 2010 -- http://picconf.org _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From vaserv@gmail.com Tue Feb 16 23:36:34 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1H7aY7Y093765 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:36:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vaserv@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f211.google.com (mail-fx0-f211.google.com [209.85.220.211]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1H7aULU003199 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:36:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm3 with SMTP id 3so6796770fxm.19 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:36:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=pKFklDjr24PySO9dkDoto2v2DvfvXRHIHfrKmYABYcU=; b=ZdvJKet84S1PGMjLinzFblZpVFhrRCkAwkhFY0erWSSkrbHxc5Vr60Hr2AfZlIYSH+ /JcvrrvskNiZU8whVG43iT5T+uj5KuHkqJdzSEyRQ1nksPFrJ/Sl1ZuN0+h/BaVu5Xr3 9K9JUjuSJ2x7rjhpWLd9aXCwDkVFNjW4w20v8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=e1F0vwY8QkQECS1yFNwNGb3Nec572sQjpglAupKb+ZqvPop3VdXUHV5ug+rOWrnltA GMyt9jy32e0T/WxYf0ZHwr3Oty7DdJRi2Og1syr1YS3XcBSWwwPurGECat1tov0xrBGM JTpy4th46LpNB6Oadp6drRaQOr9JZLEgCit7Q= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: vaserv@gmail.com Received: by 10.103.84.19 with SMTP id m19mr5512020mul.66.1266392185058; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:36:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:36:25 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: e127df346e68ad6e Message-ID: <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> From: Rus Foster To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:36:35 -0000 > > Can the OP perhaps give a rough time line on when he (?) last really paid > attention to this stuff? > I really sat down technically at the start of 2008 so it about 2 years. But beyond that its just been jumping in and out. I've now got a few months where I can concetrate to get myself back up to speed -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/rusfoster From joel.merrick@gmail.com Wed Feb 17 04:30:59 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HCUwSv000390 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:30:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joel.merrick@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f211.google.com (mail-fx0-f211.google.com [209.85.220.211]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HCUt9r019137 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:30:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm3 with SMTP id 3so7056737fxm.19 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:30:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=mrBhtXX7dJITIryaCy3xGMj9lRvcnW5PMFwEz3UJqKw=; b=xFb/+K6E62/f88gvC7sU9HHzXZw3r9mQUgCtf8m29fBdBJxiPypR82iFtHNUhYcjtl eK41cNTHeaBmgtEBhOMfK7GQi7L/XU/ErwdFyJv4HaoiRxVPqILiDaXBIgcLH69W+qNJ OroAMhYo+a+xYpmDOmDOOQffhPlfduWBjZcnE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=E1DWp8XvMWZcNceV0US1WErIIZqaPpxwN+sUhB7C/9bUMlzPWndCN5A3KcqudZWwEz X7xXFAS3CYPiuU/yz/t0fueVyzxzk4H1TdQD06+VSyNg+47pxl42k0Hiojt4CLbRrO37 XdqOpxM0u5BW6juWtIEf0mRls434BjLsrugNo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.185.77 with SMTP id b13mr829159hbh.158.1266409849329; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:30:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:30:49 +0000 Message-ID: <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> From: Joel Merrick To: Rus Foster X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:30:59 -0000 Definitely echo IPv6! It's quite scary to think of the work needed for deployment for even a fairly small company. I work for an ISP and we're in the analysis stages. It's akin to pandora's box.. once you scratch the surface you find all sorts of incompatibility issues and need for testing. The sooner you make stab at IPv6, the better. Ganeti with KVM for virtualization, Chef (or Puppet). OpenECP looks like a new interesting project (an OS fork of Enomaly) Also stuff like behavior driven testing (cucumber, cucumber-nagios etc..) Joel -- $ echo "kpfmAdpoofdufevq/dp/vl" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1)-1)/ge' From timetrap@gmail.com Wed Feb 17 04:32:25 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HCWPnh000441 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:32:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f178.google.com (mail-pz0-f178.google.com [209.85.222.178]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HCWMl9019194 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:32:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by pzk8 with SMTP id 8so6414772pzk.22 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:32:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WzrLspkTzAsEBc0p/OsJCvNTDpm9T3l0lryPncutxYo=; b=tuhrIqATO3d5jkm1MmIDkH8dxsD7dbh8MT3lJTrxMPwFqm4HFygDEtS15FCOz4LSfQ HZou4lbWDmGa+1wzC+L4KpVkofz2HENPwc3BCzKcnwRGUnMrkHTIDIJER6gtPiBP/Xfa kcpEbex3iYm7SByf7wnC0MCsXlYYYr8n26PJQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=kxA9Uaus2p8XZ5/doYoejAMGnm9HzdKHUDvhoEboW8nKJd6BOawIfS28eamucNd9yL YMAAo5G3atc5estOtDo108DA7GhSvd2rwgk2z3BiJUkIb5zI1jXa+kSllU8Y0cKM5Gju ufjWbfuHthLT4mmmo3AcO1vRMuWWSGvb0+MVA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.143.153.30 with SMTP id f30mr5267165wfo.281.1266409936271; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:32:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:32:16 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: a56cccb328fc45ec Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: "Richard Chycoski (rac)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=12% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1HCWPnh000441 Cc: SAGE list , Tom Limoncelli , danaq@pobox.com Subject: Re: [SAGE] "measure twice, cut once" pattern with command line actions - references? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:32:25 -0000 Just yesterday I found Suicide Linux[0]: "Any time - any time - you type any remotely incorrect command, the interpreter creatively resolves it into "rm -rf /" and wipes your hard drive." Measure twice cut once indeed. I wonder if it has tab completion ... [0]: http://qntm.org/suicide On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 1:45 AM, Richard Chycoski (rac) wrote: > One of my favourite techniques when using 'for' loops is to put only 'echo' outputs in the for loop first, then up-cursor and edit the loop to become 'live'. I've saved myself many painful recovery sessions with this... > > Of course, you have to be in a modern shell (like bash) to be able to do this. On older machines you do the same thing by putting the commands in a file, executing the script, then editing to remove the 'echo' commands. For more complex loops this is still my preference, it's easier to read a (properly indented) script, and nice editors like vim can help pinpoint your script's inadequacies in 'living colour' - you *do* turn on syntax chaecking, don't you :-) > > The latter point is - let the computer do as much of the checking as possible. It will always attempt to do exactly what you told it, and can usually be relied upon to produce the GO part of GIGO if you prompt it to! > > When you're tired, distracted, under pressure or other issues, this is the time to make sure to tke the time to test before execution, and is the advice most often ignored. > > The was an extremely seasoned radiotelegraph operator who was capable of comfortably sending and receiving Morse Code at around 60 words per minute. (Being capable of 25 WPM is considered to be 'good' to ' proficiency for professional operators.) When asked what it was like sending emegency messages at that speed he replied that he simply didn't do that - he sent emergency traffic at 20-25 WPM - to ensure that most any proficient operator could copy the message  the first time, and that interference would have less impact, and that he would be more likely to send the message without corrections. > > Ratther than: > > Measure with a micrometer, > mark with chalk, > cut with an axe... > > Code with care before hitting return!!! > > > - Richard > >  -----Original Message----- > From:   Tom Limoncelli [mailto:tal@whatexit.org] > Sent:   Tuesday, February 16, 2010 08:17 PM Pacific Standard Time > To:     danaq@pobox.com > Cc:     SAGE list > Subject:        Re: [SAGE] "measure twice,cut once" pattern with command line   actions - references? > > On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Dana Quinn wrote: >> I remember a discussion in a book - I believe "The Practice of System >> and Network Administration" (which i think of as "The Bible")... >> around usage patterns to avoid making silly (or disastrous) mistakes >> at the command line.  This is especially needed when deleting files, >> when one bad mistaken pattern patch can really ruin your day. >> >> I briefly scanned my copy of the previous version of TPoSaNA, but >> couldn't find the discussion on effective usage patterns.  I'd like to >> come up with a couple references to share with my team.   Let's just >> say it's a timely topic right now for us.  Does anyone remember where >> this discussion is easily?  I thought it was introduced with the idea >> of "measure twice, cut once", but couldn't find that in the index. >> >> Also - I'd welcome pointers to any other material on this topic... it >> would be good to look at other material on this. >> >> Dana >> >> -- >> Dana Quinn >> danaq@pobox.com > > Dana, > > Thanks for the compliments about TPoSaNA! > > I think you are referring to "Learning from Carpenters": > 1st edition: page 96: Section 5.1.3 > 2nd edition: page 210: Section 16.1.3 > > Related things that come to mind: > > (1) > Put "echo" in front of the command line to test it. > First type: >     echo rm foo* > If that outputs the files you expect, then press cursor-UP, remove the > "echo", and press RETURN. > Don't re-type the line.  Use command line editing to repeat the same > line without the "echo". > > (2) > Build up command lines one part at a time.  Don't type a long Bash > one-liner all at once.  Keep adding to the line, testing it along the > way. > > Here's a post of mine where I built up a very long command line: > http://lopsanj.org/pipermail/lopsanj/2008-August/001881.html > > And an example of doing that in Time Management for System Administrators: > http://books.google.com/books?id=ENIZL_MffqsC&lpg=PA179&ots=9m2JxUTldu&dq=limoncelli%20virus%20in%20shell&pg=PA178#v=onepage&q=&f=false > > (3) Write the test before you do the solution. > > Suppose you have a bunch of machines that all need their BIOS > upgraded.  Add to your monitoring system to test if the BIOS is at the > new version.  Now start upgrading all the BIOSs until the alert is no > longer "red" or alerting.  If you send a machine for repairs and it > comes back with an old BIOS (happens all the time to me!) then you > will start to get alerts. > > (4) Document what you dislike doing. > > People are bad at the things they dislike doing, or get bored doing. > Turn them into checklists so that you can do them in your sleep. > (TPOSANA, 2nd edition, page 246; similar point made in TM4SA's > documentation chapter) > > Checklists are my current big favorite thing to talk about.  The book > "The Checklist Manifesto" > (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0805091742/tomontime-20) should be required > reading for people that are trying to improve the operational aspects > of an organization. > > Hope that helps, > Tom > > -- > Computer and network administrators... Spread the word! >       LOPSA New Jersey Professional IT Community Conference >       New Brunswick, NJ, May 7-8, 2010 -- http://picconf.org > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From andrew@research.att.com Wed Feb 17 04:51:04 2010 Received: from mail-pink.research.att.com (mail-pink.research.att.com [192.20.225.111]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HCp4LT000939 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:51:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@research.att.com) Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com (unknown [135.207.178.11]) by mail-pink.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C37FC421C for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:50:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from bigmail.research.att.com (bigmail.research.att.com [135.207.177.180]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3320CEF650 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:50:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [135.207.175.234] ([135.207.175.234]) by bigmail.research.att.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id o1HCoxCN015519 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:50:59 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: From: Andrew Hume Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:50:56 -0500 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: Re: [SAGE] "measure twice, cut once" pattern with command line actions - references? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:51:05 -0000 two techniques in this vein that i have used: 1) set up the real work like DO "rm -fr $2" and define DO to be either echo or eval (more or less) 2) better, have the main script not actually do anything itself, but rather generate a plain (almost logic free) shell script which then needs to be executed. testing/developing then becomes simply debugging the main script and looking at its output. when you're comfortable, you can then mechanically execute it. (and leaving the generated script around as documentation of what you did.) ------------------ Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and LOPSA From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Wed Feb 17 04:52:39 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HCqdil001003 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:52:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HCqa26019895 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:52:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o1HCqZjU018207 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:52:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B7BE693.8070602@bio.umass.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:52:35 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rus Foster References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:52:35 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:52:40 -0000 Rus Foster wrote: >> Can the OP perhaps give a rough time line on when he (?) last really paid >> attention to this stuff > I really sat down technically at the start of 2008 so it about 2 > years. But beyond that its just been jumping in and out. I've now got > a few months where I can concetrate to get myself back up to speed There is a limit to how much you can tackle in 2 months. I had an "opportunity" like that when I was unemployed back in 1997-98. At that time I tackled high speed networking standards (competing 100MB at the time and other stuff), internet, and web. I ended up doing my resume in print form, pdf, and html, with the latter being an extended thing with links for details (all self contained). I put that all on a diskette with a nice label that I could hand out along with the print version. The interview for the job I finally accepted was significantly influenced by my study of the competing standards for 100MB and how that affected wiring choices. If I were doing it now, I would tackle virtualization and cloud computing. There is an enormous amount of stuff there to master in 2 months, but I think that is a significant part of where things are going, and there have been major developments in the last 2 years. However, that's a personal choice, and you have to ask yourself what you are interested in for your career. Whatever you do, do it hands on. Create your own lab, even if it is just home computers. -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From jens@quux.de Wed Feb 17 05:43:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HDhirj002051 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 05:43:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HDhefe021335 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 05:43:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 21292 invoked by uid 0); 17 Feb 2010 14:43:34 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 21288, pid: 21289, t: 0.0815s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 17 Feb 2010 14:43:34 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1NhkBg-0004DD-00 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:43:32 +0100 From: Jens Link To: sage-members@usenix.org Organization: - References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:43:32 +0100 In-Reply-To: <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> (Joel Merrick's message of "Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:30:49 +0000") Message-ID: <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:43:45 -0000 Joel Merrick writes: > Definitely echo IPv6! It's quite scary to think of the work needed for > deployment for even a fairly small company. I have to disagree. It's not that scary unless yo use lots of legacy soft- and hardware. A couple of days after one of my talks on IPv6 (and about 2 hours talking on the train ride home) one attendees dropped me a note that his network was using IPv6 now and that it took him about half a day to implement. Okay, he works for a small consulting company with less than 50 users. > I work for an ISP and we're in the analysis stages. It's akin to > pandora's box.. once you scratch the surface you find all sorts of > incompatibility issues and need for testing. Yes there are some issues. But most hard- and software (Linux, Cisco, Juniper) I work with dose support IPv6 for quite some time. And even if you have to buy new hardware it's better do notice that now (and get the budget to buy it in a couple of month) than in a year or two and ask your boss to spend quite a lot of money without warning. > The sooner you make stab at IPv6, the better. I totally agree. You don't have to change everything at once. There is still time. cheers Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From joel.merrick@gmail.com Wed Feb 17 07:21:17 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HFLHQC004345 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:21:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joel.merrick@gmail.com) Received: from gv-out-0910.google.com (gv-out-0910.google.com [216.239.58.187]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HFLELY024550 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:21:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by gv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c6so26620gvd.36 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:21:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=9DbHpAzkZwynT4EzHM6fdRKxbz0nNPQsP7pLBfQbxhY=; b=MRPzjMD9rm9E+UKEFHH6RMOu6TTzpGXX7myZc+12LJqeAajLpT3tlQ0UkytBZA2/01 fVued9n1I9Cfvs1VmsZmNemdLcjddRLJkVe7HuwGQFNPGcS1dJKr7sFq0BnkJ2XVu6Ds SYpMR6xy7US9B9b06okgqFcImHzckmWUEp+5k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=FGj7z+R4IahufkH7y+HJMsiBVaq2DOPdLg4eb+HynDs1gmPkjOEUlER6CsE4snXyAB 7aahyy9cRCwNrylhssykUAGLTZRfwt3bwOtru/wK1UkrBKWjLmh8fnYrPAMhq9pb2V+h ZbJPisqdaGMyhoVD6z2dfdwjgEQ4fvwJE8CiM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.154.204 with SMTP id f12mr910233hbc.153.1266420073051; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:21:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:21:12 +0000 Message-ID: <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> From: Joel Merrick To: Jens Link X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=14% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:21:18 -0000 On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Jens Link wrote: > Joel Merrick writes: > > > Definitely echo IPv6! It's quite scary to think of the work needed for > > deployment for even a fairly small company. > > I have to disagree. It's not that scary unless yo use lots of legacy > soft- and hardware. Haha, yea, we do.. we're not *that* large either. I'm sure in a more homogeneous environment they'll be less issues. Maybe I'm a little blinkered as we've only just started to understand the work involved, but thus far.. it's a lot! :) -- $ echo "kpfmAdpoofdufevq/dp/vl" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1)-1)/ge' From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Wed Feb 17 07:25:03 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HFP37R004463 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:25:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HFP0jS024659 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:25:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1HFP5WJ010023; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:25:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:25:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <62265.207.61.230.154.1266420306.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <4B7BE693.8070602@bio.umass.edu> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <4B7BE693.8070602@bio.umass.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:25:06 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Chris Hoogendyk" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:25:04 -0000 On Wed, February 17, 2010 07:52, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: [...] > If I were doing it now, I would tackle virtualization and cloud > computing. There is an enormous amount of stuff there to master in 2 > months, but I think that is a significant part of where things are > going, and there have been major developments in the last 2 years. > > However, that's a personal choice, and you have to ask yourself what you > are interested in for your career. > > Whatever you do, do it hands on. Create your own lab, even if it is just > home computers. If you want to do any kind of experimenting with multiple systems, it's probably easiest to use virtualization anyway. Unless you want to have a half dozen machines churning away sucking power. :) Most operating systems run fine under VMware, or even VirtualBox. The main exceptions are HP-UX and AIX, which are platform-specific; Solaris runs on (virtualized) x86 just fine. From timetrap@gmail.com Wed Feb 17 07:27:24 2010 Received: from mail-px0-f184.google.com (mail-px0-f184.google.com [209.85.216.184]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HFRO8U004540 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:27:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: by pxi14 with SMTP id 14so2610025pxi.15 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:27:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=A1Yo/yXxmBVK+LO4OCia55lpqwKPQ0ZurF+ZTmJymaw=; b=IsOoFE0X3kv5wlKOtoKNOYfnwOaxJhMWJ68h3gI3o42lFQJfWvcI5XJrlrm1XmJHZA ZI5LVWArWW2rpL6p8syw9y2p08MB4BNFSugeaxQRUaL8SZ+7QPc10DvNysqZLEV2EvkN 3mIQ051P6KoyctHMfUhDbiaz6vsK71ikKNUS4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=KhlJXpTVrc/xMlGUZAMNssbrSZLZ17h6VxzkTVRCZGHZMAkKSP7eUEl0DSk/uAJkTE HLB8QGWAZHnsMTMHdrD/16TAixLVRjP+x5Hh18S1haJ8BFraSFcKhTWiii77Hs0y4QU6 cTDj6XyzAahA3yorKSSr0U3PC+QBggIojDBzI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.247.33 with SMTP id u33mr5380737wfh.219.1266420438724; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:27:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:27:18 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: b2a9a5791da1b51c Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: Andrew Hume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1HFRO8U004540 Cc: sage-members@mailman.sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] "measure twice, cut once" pattern with command line actions - references? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:27:24 -0000 I like that; 'verb (verb-noun)' arrangement. On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Andrew Hume wrote: > two techniques in this vein that i have used: > > 1) set up the real work like >        DO "rm -fr $2" > and define DO to be either echo or eval (more or less) > > 2) better, have the main script not actually do anything itself, but rather > generate a > plain (almost logic free) shell script which then needs to be executed. > testing/developing then becomes simply debugging the main script and looking > at its output. > when you're comfortable, you can then mechanically execute it. (and leaving > the generated script around as documentation of what you did.) > > ------------------ > Andrew Hume  (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 > andrew@research.att.com  (Work) +1 973-360-8651 > AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and LOPSA > > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Wed Feb 17 07:31:12 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HFVCih004670 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:31:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HFV8B7024932 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:31:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1HFVGpf010471 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:31:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:31:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38959.207.61.230.154.1266420676.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:31:16 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: sage-members@usenix.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:31:12 -0000 On Wed, February 17, 2010 08:43, Jens Link wrote: > Joel Merrick writes: [...] >> The sooner you make stab at IPv6, the better. > > I totally agree. You don't have to change everything at once. There is > still time. If interested, there was recently a thread on the topic of IPv6 that the OP can check out: http://mailman.sage.org/pipermail/sage-members/2010/thread.html#00110 From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Wed Feb 17 07:50:14 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HFoEJQ005053 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:50:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HFoA1j025557 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:50:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1HFnvsQ011983; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:49:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:49:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:49:57 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Joel Merrick" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] prepping for IPv6 (was: Breakthrough stuff in the last few years) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:50:14 -0000 On Wed, February 17, 2010 10:21, Joel Merrick wrote: > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Jens Link wrote: [...] >> I have to disagree. It's not that scary unless yo use lots of legacy >> soft- and hardware. > > Haha, yea, we do.. we're not *that* large either. > > I'm sure in a more homogeneous environment they'll be less issues. Maybe > I'm a little blinkered as we've only just started to understand the work > involved, but thus far.. it's a lot! :) Well, any decent (read: POSIX) operating system released in the last ten years should have support for it. The BSDs were among the first (being where the reference KAME stack was developed), and Linux was there as well. I know Solaris 8 had decent support (~Feb. 2000). Similarly on the client side, most of Unix-y systems (including Mac OS X) should have good out-of-box support. I won't get into Windows, as I have no interest in it. :) Both Cisco and Juniper should also have decent support for equipment that's been out in the last five years. For software--again on POSIX-y systems--the main things would be DNS, mail, and web. I haven't heard of a major software product that runs on Unix that doesn't support IPv6--even Oracle (11gR2) has it now. Even recent application stacks, if you're fronting (say) Tomcat or Glassfish with Apache, it would be the web server that's handling this stuff. If you're allowed to say, can you mention what components you're having nightmares about? :) From jens@quux.de Wed Feb 17 07:52:37 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HFqbkO005100 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:52:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HFqX6g025715 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:52:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5791 invoked by uid 0); 17 Feb 2010 16:52:27 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 5786, pid: 5789, t: 0.0623s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 17 Feb 2010 16:52:27 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1NhmCP-0006s5-00 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:52:25 +0100 From: Jens Link To: sage-members@usenix.org Organization: - References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <4B7BE693.8070602@bio.umass.edu> <62265.207.61.230.154.1266420306.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:52:25 +0100 In-Reply-To: <62265.207.61.230.154.1266420306.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> (David Magda's message of "Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:25:06 -0500 (EST)") Message-ID: <87k4ub3lmu.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:52:38 -0000 "David Magda" writes: > Most operating systems run fine under VMware, or even VirtualBox. The main > exceptions are HP-UX and AIX, which are platform-specific; Solaris runs on > (virtualized) x86 just fine. And even some routing platforms can be run virtualized (at least for lab work, not for production use). There is dynamips for IOS and Olive for JunOS. GNS3 (http://www.gns3.net/) is a nice GUI for both of them. Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From tytso@thunk.org Wed Feb 17 08:27:52 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HGRq9B005924 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:27:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tytso@thunk.org) Received: from thunker.thunk.org (thunk.org [69.25.196.29]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HGRneD026854 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:27:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from root (helo=closure.thunk.org) by thunker.thunk.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.50 #1 (Debian)) id 1NhmkW-0001Jx-1f; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:27:40 -0500 Received: from tytso by closure.thunk.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NhmkV-0008B9-H4; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:27:39 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:27:39 -0500 From: tytso@mit.edu To: Chris Hoogendyk Message-ID: <20100217162739.GB5337@thunk.org> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <4B7BE693.8070602@bio.umass.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4B7BE693.8070602@bio.umass.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: tytso@thunk.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on thunker.thunk.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:27:52 -0000 On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 07:52:35AM -0500, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: > However, that's a personal choice, and you have to ask yourself what > you are interested in for your career. This is key; without knowing what you've done to date, and more importantly, what you want to do in the future, it's hard to give good suggestions. I will say that ext4 (which you had put on your list), is pretty trivial to learn from a system administrator's point of view, since it was designed as a drop-in upgrade to ext2/ext3. Unless, of course, you're interested in understanding what's going on under the covers, but that only makes sense if you are planning on getting into file system forensics, or maybe becoming a file system developer. Although given that you listed puppet as another technology you were interested in and given the list you are posting on, I was guessing that you are more interested in a system administor career track? Based on your e-mail address, your company seems to be a small web-hosting provider which appears to be using Linux; so it's not clear the Solaris suggestions are that helpful unless your plan is to move on to some other job position. But of course all of this are just guesses on my part.... > Whatever you do, do it hands on. Create your own lab, even if it is > just home computers. I would definitely second this piece of advice. Best regards, - Ted From jens@quux.de Wed Feb 17 08:54:57 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HGsvip006626 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:54:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HGsrtI027631 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:54:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23662 invoked by uid 0); 17 Feb 2010 17:54:47 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 23659, pid: 23660, t: 0.0765s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 17 Feb 2010 17:54:47 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1NhnAj-00089n-00 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:54:45 +0100 From: Jens Link To: sage-members@usenix.org Organization: - References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:54:45 +0100 In-Reply-To: <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> (David Magda's message of "Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:49:57 -0500 (EST)") Message-ID: <87y6ir246i.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] prepping for IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:54:57 -0000 "David Magda" writes: > I won't get into Windows, as I have no interest in it. :) I normally try to avoid Windows but they do support IPv6 very well. > Both Cisco and Juniper should also have decent support for equipment > that's been out in the last five years. It depends. Go ahead an ask Cisco for IPv6 support for Ironport. Other (spam filter) appliances have the same problem. > If you're allowed to say, can you mention what components you're having > nightmares about? :) My guess would be: Home grown accounting solutions and appliances. Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From joel.merrick@gmail.com Wed Feb 17 09:24:33 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HHOXKQ008025 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:24:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joel.merrick@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f200.google.com (mail-qy0-f200.google.com [209.85.221.200]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HHOTjL028510 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:24:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38so2068404qyk.1 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:24:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ChRg+42ZfYFKI/km53Vif3ALr8AcIpVjpBjVZVOy6s0=; b=F4QAQ/nF6DCXtvAQCtFAkCA4gOsG50XBCY5bJtT1cOAdVoceIc5hRuhxjkgdmq7gvW 0xlwwj6mJmj0ks6Rtop9HyUz/fL1rSGIfA2X1Niw0e6vLSym0h+xk9kkUsFa4vVIDegg XFA0WDMrIY5F9uDkKuoCOMT3VgfH7spjJxYzs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=CGxmQx/XgzraGa4P7UnMn0AycGbUeOagOQstjEGSYE8kJ4eZSTvg95fm+Uzm/Hko2D CUfc0bPhhqd5h1uTwPgedbEhNZZspFK/34uMOvqD5Ba6mppJHSLjgmPBgL33NQqZ5xWs PXZgVg+i4/7MkW18J6ovRozC1RwIHumvA+a0k= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.186.193 with SMTP id i1mr922438hbh.133.1266427074455; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:17:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:17:54 +0000 Message-ID: <543a57a81002170917vd3524d5jc8a6c30fc8042ef0@mail.gmail.com> From: Joel Merrick To: David Magda Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] prepping for IPv6 (was: Breakthrough stuff in the last few years) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:24:33 -0000 On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 3:49 PM, David Magda wrote: > > If you're allowed to say, can you mention what components you're having > nightmares about? :) PXE booting Home-brew provisioning & accounting Updating all out monitoring and related scripts etc. Legacy backup software on server and client side Dell DRAC 4&5 (only 6 is compatible...) Etc.... ! I'm a systems guy, so only really have been looking at that t.b.h. -- $ echo "kpfmAdpoofdufevq/dp/vl" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1)-1)/ge' From matt@ryanczak.org Wed Feb 17 09:46:46 2010 Received: from zap.planetfoo.org (zap.planetfoo.org [70.164.19.160]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HHkjFp008854 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:46:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@ryanczak.org) Received: from [IPv6:2001:500:4:15::16] (unknown [IPv6:2001:500:4:15::16]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zap.planetfoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 30D044B048A for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:46:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B7C2BFC.7040508@ryanczak.org> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:48:44 -0500 From: Matt Ryanczak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9pre) Gecko/20100216 Lightning/1.0b1 Shredder/3.0.2pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] prepping for IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:46:46 -0000 On 02/17/2010 10:49 AM, David Magda wrote: > > Well, any decent (read: POSIX) operating system released in the last ten > years should have support for it. The BSDs were among the first (being > where the reference KAME stack was developed), and Linux was there as > well. I know Solaris 8 had decent support (~Feb. 2000). Similarly on the > client side, most of Unix-y systems (including Mac OS X) should have good > out-of-box support. I won't get into Windows, as I have no interest in it. > :) Windows Vista / 7 support IPv6 as well as any other OS out there and are better in some regards, DHCPv6 support for instance. > Both Cisco and Juniper should also have decent support for equipment > that's been out in the last five years. I can't speak for Juniper but Cisco has a huge product line and a lot of it does not support IPv6 or does not offer feature parity between IPv4 and IPv6. In short there are a lot of products in Cisco space that lack IPv6 support. This is especially true outside of routing and switching. They are better than most large vendors though.... In my experience it's the little things like printers, copy machines, IP cameras and other embedded devices that can cause the pain. mod_proxy, 6tunnel or other proxies can help with this stuff though. > Even recent application stacks, if you're fronting (say) Tomcat or > Glassfish with Apache, it would be the web server that's handling this > stuff. But were the applications that leverage these application stacks, frameworks or libraries written to parse IPv6 addresses or deal appropriately with AAAA records in the DNS? ~Matt From jens@quux.de Wed Feb 17 09:58:04 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HHw484009145 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:58:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HHw02w029408 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:58:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 7016 invoked by uid 0); 17 Feb 2010 18:57:52 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 7011, pid: 7012, t: 0.0637s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 17 Feb 2010 18:57:52 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Nho9l-00013L-00 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:57:49 +0100 From: Jens Link To: sage-members@usenix.org Organization: - References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <543a57a81002170917vd3524d5jc8a6c30fc8042ef0@mail.gmail.com> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:57:49 +0100 In-Reply-To: <543a57a81002170917vd3524d5jc8a6c30fc8042ef0@mail.gmail.com> (Joel Merrick's message of "Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:17:54 +0000") Message-ID: <87iq9vu4ma.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] prepping for IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:58:05 -0000 Joel Merrick writes: > PXE booting > Home-brew provisioning & accounting > Updating all out monitoring and related scripts etc. > Legacy backup software on server and client side > Dell DRAC 4&5 (only 6 is compatible...) Implementing IPv6 doesn't mean that you have to get rid of IPv4 completely. So unless you run IPv6 only hosts you're provisioning, backup, etc. will still work. DRAC and PXE can use RFC1918 addresses. So in the first step you only need to worry about accounting an monitoring. Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Wed Feb 17 10:28:55 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HIStIP009987 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:28:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HISq3J000054 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:28:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o1HISo0w022743 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:28:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B7C3562.60803@bio.umass.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:28:50 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joel Merrick References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <543a57a81002170917vd3524d5jc8a6c30fc8042ef0@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <543a57a81002170917vd3524d5jc8a6c30fc8042ef0@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:28:50 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] prepping for IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:28:56 -0000 Joel Merrick wrote: > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 3:49 PM, David Magda wrote: > >> If you're allowed to say, can you mention what components you're having >> nightmares about? :) >> > PXE booting > Home-brew provisioning & accounting > Updating all out monitoring and related scripts etc. > Legacy backup software on server and client side > Dell DRAC 4&5 (only 6 is compatible...) > Etc.... ! > > I'm a systems guy, so only really have been looking at that t.b.h. upgrade. update. cost? go open source. You have time to study and learn now right? Legacy backup, for example, could be replaced with Amanda which can do IPv6, and it wouldn't cost. Or, if you wanted support contracts and help setting it up, you could get that from Zmanda. It would still be cheaper than pure commercial proprietary source code options. The same would apply to things like monitoring. Adopt an open source project that supports IPv6. You have to re-work the scripts, etc. anyway, so adopting something that is more adaptable, with pluggable modules or something, would end up giving you more power and flexibility. You might also be able to find open source replacements for other in house developed stuff. using open source allows you to minimize what you really have to spend money on. if you really can't update the hardware and remain stuck with a lot of older DRAC, then split the network and have a backside IPv4 that is private and only DRAC with a secure gateway you can go through from the IPv6 general network. -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Wed Feb 17 10:58:02 2010 Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HIw17J010962 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:58:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1HIw7o9027907 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:58:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:58:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <45021.207.61.230.154.1266433087.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <4B7C2BFC.7040508@ryanczak.org> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4B7C2BFC.7040508@ryanczak.org> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:58:07 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: sage-members@mailman.sage.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [SAGE] prepping for IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:58:02 -0000 On Wed, February 17, 2010 12:48, Matt Ryanczak wrote: > I can't speak for Juniper but Cisco has a huge product line and a lot of > it does not support IPv6 or does not offer feature parity between IPv4 > and IPv6. In short there are a lot of products in Cisco space that lack > IPv6 support. This is especially true outside of routing and switching. > They are better than most large vendors though.... > > In my experience it's the little things like printers, copy machines, IP > cameras and other embedded devices that can cause the pain. mod_proxy, > 6tunnel or other proxies can help with this stuff though. For Phase I of IPv6, I think most organizations can probably have the following goal: on any workstation on the company, be able to see the KAME dancing turtle. Similarly, from your own infrastructure, you should be able to serve out a dancing turtle. All of this other stuff, while important, is extraneous to start and will just raise your blood pressure unnecessarily. Getting the above done--in addition to all the other projects--is probably enough over the a year's time to keep you busy. Once you can run 'ping6' and 'traceroute6', and get "good" results, you're in decent shape and ahead of 80% of most of the people out there. Even if you're a web shop, and don't (yet) offer IPv6 to customers, you need the above to even test things like scripts. If you haven't reach the Goal of the Dancing Turtle, you can't really proceed on anything else. You can keep your printers, copiers, cameras, etc. on IPv4: dual-stack isn't necessary on /everything/--IPv4 will still be usable. From joel.merrick@gmail.com Wed Feb 17 11:16:51 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HJGpFn011553 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:16:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joel.merrick@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.144]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HJGmf9001146 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:16:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so1154959qwf.22 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:16:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=D1f+cnREJRapciwajeQ5wAWvrsnrJGg7Fbn8a36yU1k=; b=dVJwVE19Ryeul4ylSKyT67jve/UebqBDesfWhPdnIGOodwrDliNN76xvxentoxl+kq NTdiWKz5picJ1tTzVRTySmwjPfBlJJFxqGnJUMegVkraN1zduqslFcIpDG2wt3PM2V7k vsgGBz+62zArwYm/Z5U3Jig2i0cwtvC+WrLc4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=dB9KiggUV4IDfHPJATyVFbTyDXhmwWuRaNEwxSPQ3UFu2SFmQbQELGwReLJ/TKe/NZ I1MygqPqtVwribhroZDNrZILA3CPdsL0hDTyEGBCDUmUz/C0jur9UUDYYwMxIVlUrBiJ khFxag26mZch1oDQzBlMPvgjABBnySmJfQN6E= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.185.77 with SMTP id b13mr888284hbh.158.1266434207109; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:16:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B7C3562.60803@bio.umass.edu> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <543a57a81002170917vd3524d5jc8a6c30fc8042ef0@mail.gmail.com> <4B7C3562.60803@bio.umass.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:16:46 +0000 Message-ID: <543a57a81002171116m616e89ceqb2ff8b6aebdbe019@mail.gmail.com> From: Joel Merrick To: Chris Hoogendyk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] prepping for IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:16:52 -0000 On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: > cost? go open source. You have time to study and learn now right? > > Legacy backup, for example, could be replaced with Amanda which can do IPv6, > and it wouldn't cost. Or, if you wanted support contracts and help setting > it up, you could get that from Zmanda. It would still be cheaper than pure > commercial proprietary source code options. The same would apply to things > like monitoring. Adopt an open source project that supports IPv6. You have > to re-work the scripts, etc. anyway, so adopting something that is more > adaptable, with pluggable modules or something, would end up giving you more > power and flexibility. You might also be able to find open source > replacements for other in house developed stuff. Very interesting, thanks. I suppose we should view this as a golden opportunity to weed out archaic bits of infrastructure that have been around for years... the only reason why they've not been migrated sooner is that they work (sometimes) and apathy I suppose. Probably could take this view for various things to be honest. silver linings and all.... > > using open source allows you to minimize what you really have to spend money > on. Amen to that! Joel -- $ echo "kpfmAdpoofdufevq/dp/vl" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1)-1)/ge' From jens@quux.de Wed Feb 17 12:08:42 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1HK8gHH013091 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:08:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jens@quux.de) Received: from mail.adimus.de (mail.adimus.de [78.47.239.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1HK8cvh002483 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:08:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 2749 invoked by uid 0); 17 Feb 2010 21:08:32 +0100 Received: by simscan 1.3.1 ppid: 2745, pid: 2747, t: 0.0605s scanners: regex: 1.3.1 Received: from unknown (HELO laphroiag.quux.de) (88.74.6.163) by mail.adimus.de with SMTP; 17 Feb 2010 21:08:32 +0100 Received: from jens by laphroiag.quux.de with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1NhqCE-0003m4-00 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:08:30 +0100 From: Jens Link To: sage-members@usenix.org Organization: - References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> <7d49b3d91002161110k653a126eha735b0b0ab374dea@mail.gmail.com> <46954.207.61.230.154.1266352419.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5d6f61f21002162336k75fbca29o6d2604dd07fee184@mail.gmail.com> <543a57a81002170430w6ffea282q18098f240a938c20@mail.gmail.com> <874olgm0zf.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> <543a57a81002170721o29fd5301n36b8b89385eb4c33@mail.gmail.com> <10862.207.61.230.154.1266421797.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <543a57a81002170917vd3524d5jc8a6c30fc8042ef0@mail.gmail.com> <4B7C3562.60803@bio.umass.edu> X-URL: http://www.quux.de X-message-flag: HTML Mails will not be read! Send plain text! Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:08:30 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4B7C3562.60803@bio.umass.edu> (Chris Hoogendyk's message of "Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:28:50 -0500") Message-ID: <878warlj5t.fsf@laphroiag.quux.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Jens Link X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] prepping for IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:08:42 -0000 Chris Hoogendyk writes: > Legacy backup, for example, could be replaced with Amanda which can do > IPv6, and it wouldn't cost. Bacula might also be worth a look when it comes to OSS backup systems. Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From philiph@pobox.com Wed Feb 17 23:21:25 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1I7LOsC030933 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:21:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from philiph@pobox.com) Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1I7LLTf015149 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:21:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.internal [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AB4DE0F20 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 02:21:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from web7.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.216]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 02:21:21 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=message-id:from:to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:subject:date; s=smtpout; bh=0Xk7aFJJTHXczEoUmQ7o9CFy8ok=; b=hNG+NkU7U/SaccXoaM0dpJbM7MoLSBXaG3pJNMk25ps9ydCxDI40T/191+e0AvvXDvaJRBjPt/3usk8JSUrv4cvSVsdKM+5unf7P4mjI5Aeezlfm2U/FqmboP8nj0YmvoMltDfRfzY7A82bTw50WsmQ5o1Y2o80DY22cshBNcuU= Received: by web7.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id F381110B902; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 02:21:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1266477680.28891.1360591665@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: c1dv7jKBzKSOlXUaRcHnaegqydhaoA4Np/x/soq7RBfE 1266477680 From: "Philip J. Hollenback" To: "SAGE Members" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:21:20 -0800 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=4% Subject: [SAGE] Interesting article on Intel server room environment management X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:21:25 -0000 Just came across this, wanted to share with everyone: http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2008/09/18/intel-servers-do-fine-with-outside-air/ the interesting thing that caught my eye is Intel says they just used normal household air filters and no humidity control, and they did not see an increase in equipment failure. Saved a lot of money too. P. -- Philip J. Hollenback philiph@pobox.com www.hollenback.net From doug@will.to Thu Feb 18 05:59:45 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1IDxiKE039971 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:59:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1IDxfPF005061 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:59:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [75.236.205.232] (232.sub-75-236-205.myvzw.com [75.236.205.232]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id o1IDvmjh004208 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:57:52 -0500 Message-ID: <4B7D475D.4030408@will.to> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:57:49 -0500 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Philip J. Hollenback" References: <1266477680.28891.1360591665@webmail.messagingengine.com> In-Reply-To: <1266477680.28891.1360591665@webmail.messagingengine.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:57:53 -0500 (EST) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Interesting article on Intel server room environment management X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:59:45 -0000 Philip J. Hollenback wrote: > Just came across this, wanted to share with everyone: > > http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2008/09/18/intel-servers-do-fine-with-outside-air/ > > the interesting thing that caught my eye is Intel says they just used > normal household air filters and no humidity control, and they did not > see an increase in equipment failure. Saved a lot of money too. > > P. > > As with any property, location location location. You wouldn't want to do this in Phoenix, AZ, as a for instance, and Seattle would be quite iffy because of persistent high humidity, nor would any place, I think, with really soupy summer days (a lot of the NorthEast is like this). * Condensing humidity is evil. * keeping those filters from blocking in a climate with a lot of pollenation in spring is tough, manual, exacting, and labor intensive * think also about the work environment that humans habitate We looked very carefully at free cooling when we evaluated choices for our new datacenter and determined that the combination of mechanical complication (a complicated system of dampers, feedback, and filters requiring high maintenance at some points and low in others) as well as some amount of dehumidification in summer to keep from condensing and some amount of dehumidification in winter to keep from zapping, as well as comfortable work environment for people made it somewhat impractical. (for us) From prvs=9665e1efb9=tytso@mit.edu Thu Feb 18 06:06:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1IE671o040132 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 06:06:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from prvs=9665e1efb9=tytso@mit.edu) Received: from dmz-mailsec-scanner-6.mit.edu (DMZ-MAILSEC-SCANNER-6.MIT.EDU [18.7.68.35]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1IE64oU005389 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 06:06:07 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 12074423-b7cebae000000968-23-4b7d49473e91 Received: from mailhub-auth-2.mit.edu (MAILHUB-AUTH-2.MIT.EDU [18.7.62.36]) by dmz-mailsec-scanner-6.mit.edu (Symantec Brightmail Gateway) with SMTP id 64.88.02408.7494D7B4; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:05:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.103]) by mailhub-auth-2.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.9.2) with ESMTP id o1IE5wxQ016427; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:05:58 -0500 Received: from [10.0.42.239] (c-98-216-98-217.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [98.216.98.217]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as tytso@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.12.4) with ESMTP id o1IE6HNR010140 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:06:18 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Theodore Tso In-Reply-To: <1266477680.28891.1360591665@webmail.messagingengine.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:05:56 -0500 Message-Id: References: <1266477680.28891.1360591665@webmail.messagingengine.com> To: "Philip J. Hollenback" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAARLvbOg= X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1IE671o040132 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Interesting article on Intel server room environment management X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:06:08 -0000 On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:21 AM, Philip J. Hollenback wrote: > Just came across this, wanted to share with everyone: > > http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2008/09/18/intel-servers-do-fine-with-outside-air/ > > the interesting thing that caught my eye is Intel says they just used > normal household air filters and no humidity control, and they did not > see an increase in equipment failure. Saved a lot of money too. If I recall correctly, an invited talks speaker from Amazon at a Usenix conference in the past year or two (I can't remember if it was ATC or LISA) said basically the same thing, and they had been doing this for a while. Apparently modern servers don't need as much coddling with respect to temperature and humidity as machines in the "good old days" (may they never return :-) - Ted From philiph@pobox.com Thu Feb 18 09:16:36 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1IHGabk045583 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:16:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from philiph@pobox.com) Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1IHGXAo011360 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:16:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2 [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59A2CE181E for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:16:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from web5.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.214]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:16:33 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=message-id:from:to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:subject:date; s=smtpout; bh=RyQzhP5CEQ+BGo1FsMppIGQjvHY=; b=a9zwaV2R4hI60aTEfMnBWSkpPxZejqtOFDROUbTvXHy7vT+JpUzdyQwJ7c3cniR3O5Fs4TeLg5El6/UHpdrGiRV7H9eI+vzP6pmBQxTj29K8SII6ldiIqwJo8lqSYK0d1aFwjOqmOvzULL7DWEaf6+0DKo7tGm75QJNeSeaQ2Aw= Received: by web5.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 3C5C21343E5; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:16:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1266513393.18977.1360676245@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: n8LnKo1uAyl4PTbDMuyHn+W2ImMswXEV2duQ7GlJrxzP 1266513393 From: "Philip J. Hollenback" To: "SAGE Members" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:16:33 -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=4% Subject: [SAGE] Hiring Service Engineers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:16:37 -0000 The giant internet company I work for is on a service engineer hiring spree. Shoot me an email if you're interested. P. -- Philip J. Hollenback philiph@pobox.com www.hollenback.net From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Feb 18 09:34:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1IHY7Gd045911 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:34:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1IHXvd3011838 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:34:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1IHXI4e012854; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:33:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <63646.207.61.230.154.1266514399.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: References: <1266477680.28891.1360591665@webmail.messagingengine.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:33:19 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Theodore Tso" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Interesting article on Intel server room environment management X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:34:08 -0000 On Thu, February 18, 2010 09:05, Theodore Tso wrote: > If I recall correctly, an invited talks speaker from Amazon at a Usenix > conference in the past year or two (I can't remember if it was ATC or > LISA) said basically the same thing, and they had been doing this for a > while. Apparently modern servers don't need as much coddling with respect > to temperature and humidity as machines in the "good old days" (may they > never return :-) I think ~20C is used out of habit more than anything else. There's also the fact that in a lot of places there's a lot of mixing happening between hot and cold aisles, so even if it's 20C out of the CRAC, by the time it hits the computer inlet, it's higher. If one is doing a "green field" data centre, you can probably get away with using mid- to high-20C if you properly design the aisle separation. A lot of sites are doing either hot or cold aisle containment, and not just separation. With a green field design, most modern systems could probably handle 30+C inlet. However it's best to keep in mind that "operators" will have to deal with those temperatures at times, along with the hot aisle as well (40C?). From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Thu Feb 18 09:44:01 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1IHi1cQ046118 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:44:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.1]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1IHhraO012120 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:44:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.ee.ryerson.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eccles2.ee.ryerson.ca (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o1IHdGKH013314; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:39:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.61.230.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dmagda) by webmail.ee.ryerson.ca with HTTP; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:39:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5302.207.61.230.154.1266514756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <4B7D475D.4030408@will.to> References: <1266477680.28891.1360591665@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4B7D475D.4030408@will.to> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:39:16 -0500 (EST) From: "David Magda" To: "Doug Hughes" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Interesting article on Intel server room environment management X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:44:01 -0000 On Thu, February 18, 2010 08:57, Doug Hughes wrote: > We looked very carefully at free cooling when we evaluated choices for > our new datacenter and determined that the combination of mechanical > complication (a complicated system of dampers, feedback, and filters > requiring high maintenance at some points and low in others) as well as > some amount of dehumidification in summer to keep from condensing and > some amount of dehumidification in winter to keep from zapping, as well > as comfortable work environment for people made it somewhat impractical. > (for us) If you don't want to draw in "raw" air, using heat exchangers / pumps may be a reasonable compromise for locales that have chilly winters. There's a supercomputer in Quebec that can use simple heat exchangers for around 200 days out of the year (IIRC): https://www.clumeq.ca/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLUMEQ http://www.google.ca/search?q=clumeq Their "industry partner" was Sun, and there's a video floating around (that I can't find right now) from an HPC conference where they explain the design and construction. From doug@will.to Thu Feb 18 10:45:28 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1IIjSaI047852 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:45:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1IIjPhb013857 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [149.77.212.99] (psistorm.nyc.deshaw.com [149.77.212.99]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id o1IIfq1d010293 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:41:53 -0500 Message-ID: <4B7D89EF.70402@will.to> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:41:51 -0500 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Magda References: <1266477680.28891.1360591665@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4B7D475D.4030408@will.to> <5302.207.61.230.154.1266514756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: <5302.207.61.230.154.1266514756.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:41:54 -0500 (EST) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Interesting article on Intel server room environment management X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:45:29 -0000 David Magda wrote: > On Thu, February 18, 2010 08:57, Doug Hughes wrote: > > >> We looked very carefully at free cooling when we evaluated choices for >> our new datacenter and determined that the combination of mechanical >> complication (a complicated system of dampers, feedback, and filters >> requiring high maintenance at some points and low in others) as well as >> some amount of dehumidification in summer to keep from condensing and >> some amount of dehumidification in winter to keep from zapping, as well >> as comfortable work environment for people made it somewhat impractical. >> (for us) >> > > If you don't want to draw in "raw" air, using heat exchangers / pumps may > be a reasonable compromise for locales that have chilly winters. There's a > supercomputer in Quebec that can use simple heat exchangers for around 200 > days out of the year (IIRC): > > https://www.clumeq.ca/ > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLUMEQ > http://www.google.ca/search?q=clumeq > > Their "industry partner" was Sun, and there's a video floating around > (that I can't find right now) from an HPC conference where they explain > the design and construction. > > Above a certain latitude this is very effective because a very large differential between the outside air and the inside air. The approach that works in Quebec may not be good for New Mexico and vice-versa. In more moderate climates, you can just use filtered outside air (assuming you don't have vast amounts of flora spreading their love). In colder climbs you might just have to humidify, or throw in a water/water HX or water/air. AHRAE certified data-center engineers are good at this stuff and will tell you what will work well in your climate (or not), sometimes with the appropriate caveats and reservations for your own risk assessment. From kurt.buff@gmail.com Thu Feb 18 12:51:03 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1IKp3Am051777 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:51:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f200.google.com (mail-qy0-f200.google.com [209.85.221.200]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1IKoxeZ018481 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:51:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38so3209222qyk.1 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:50:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=/eX7SsqGI1ElP37W6tMzNy3akdOjKU7owbV5n5w2/UA=; b=sZ+owxPH+cCz+EUIvvvSygE9ympevO2VWCUOI/ow1b+Siy72FOq80qfp0xzaruJ57q 9h2cT5NgVoIPowNovoR8uJc4Ewkcofcmz5h9ILf0McUF++ayCY0xUsbVu//ViCbvlbnT qZ0zpQp+fmittAklQP2anrmXgGu4u4tvUYzwY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=BWouEFzP3SXONkpCIjrAiBPnguxWWXnjoZlNyVF/nvzZuq21WqScE48OUzUcECpgI9 5PPyFvweX8SfhtZBK4VpNzY6TiulOB80mXaEQ5RIODxYFYkf1hWXlAueAFwQOUjhKDU6 V1Z2KRs8pquK5ZBNZ98FY9Vg6ywdxGZm2hZyM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.81.13 with SMTP id v13mr2836366qak.324.1266526254186; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:50:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:50:54 -0800 Message-ID: From: Kurt Buff To: SAGE Members Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Subject: [SAGE] Question regarding individual IM/video use at work X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:51:03 -0000 This is probably old hat and a settled question for many of you, but... Anyone out there care to share their policy and (very) general implementation info on IM and individual video conferencing usage? Does your company, for instance, allow users to install and use any of the major public/consumer IM/video apps and communicate directly to the major public IM/video providers such as MSN, AOL, Yahoo! and Google? If your company does allow it, what does the company consider to be the cost/benefit tradeoff WRT security and not using a centralized IM/video server with gateways to public IM/video services? Also, what security concerns were looked at before implementation and what measures, if any, were taken to mitigate them? If direct access to public IM/video services isn't allowed, is an IM/video service provided for business purposes, and if so, what are you using - MSFT OCS, or Openfire, or something else, and does it serve as a gateway to public services? If you can't comment on-list, but don't mind doing so off-list, I'd certainly appreciate it. Private responses will only be shared with my management team. Kurt From sigje@slick.sigje.org Thu Feb 18 13:12:04 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1ILC3YH052296 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:12:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sigje@slick.sigje.org) Received: from slick.sigje.org (slick.sigje.org [64.125.64.90]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1ILC0FA018983 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:12:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from sigje (helo=localhost) by slick.sigje.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiCzc-0001eA-Le for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:29:00 -0800 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:29:00 -0800 (PST) From: Jennifer Davis To: SAGE Members In-Reply-To: <1266513393.18977.1360676245@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20100218122648.U6333@slick.sigje.org> References: <1266513393.18977.1360676245@webmail.messagingengine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: Jennifer Davis X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Hiring Service Engineers X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 21:12:04 -0000 My group in particular is actually looking for some awesome folks. You can read about what we work on here: http://developer.yahoo.net/blog/archives/2009/06/sherpa.html If it sounds interesting let me know. -- Jennifer Davis From tal@whatexit.org Fri Feb 19 07:43:23 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1JFhNqW082261 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:43:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com (mail-vw0-f41.google.com [209.85.212.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1JFhK2a020928 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:43:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws20 with SMTP id 20so62697vws.28 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:43:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.107.5 with SMTP id z5mr7606668vco.69.1266594194606; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:43:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7d49b3d91002162006h2996eacfm58aed15e2e1e40c9@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d49b3d91002162006h2996eacfm58aed15e2e1e40c9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:43:14 -0500 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91002190743l1516d3fbjf796e93a7e2b802a@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: danaq@pobox.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=1% Cc: SAGE list Subject: Re: [SAGE] "measure twice, cut once" pattern with command line actions - references? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:43:24 -0000 P.S. TPOSANA 2nd edition is readable online for Safari Bookshelf members: http://my.safaribooksonline.com/9780321545275/410 O'Reilly and Pearson (who owns Addison-Wesley) partnered to bring TPOSANA and other Pearson titles to the web. From awen1977@gmail.com Tue Feb 23 11:40:16 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1NJeFad042043 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:40:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from awen1977@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com (mail-pw0-f41.google.com [209.85.160.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1NJeCoX016600 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:40:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwj7 with SMTP id 7so3429758pwj.28 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:40:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=95wQMiGnBQdOTQBUzuFP4KdlG6W4V1afiryucraH16Q=; b=tKSfIoG7bnkAGU1NlXRyy5Kz2+ozdkiH/0nho9jzgAUk5hjymfQadOgvEP+29fi1j4 AhMw+oAwDf0c11zl0DpHHfTdjIUmfSWTp6V9WOG6IWdRUmTB2vbJDn4kvPEo25XW6lJ4 P0KYWcdxN7nPJ6NnRNvJhQ1rE3hAXt4V8BKdw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=f+Bt+1ZL5WKjD3gEKVPiNbkyLsULVV4oHPx9N0ZlMztf1/aSNt2j65rByqC0RL/aAk VmCE1AkuqvmSiBKIe5FzPFVhNcw6fVGIIoWydqOMvFu8YxeT5bqawClwZBTQRPKH6GmD 0zw1pO5BWkCro13mSoNoKtNU4e0JAKdLpBgq8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.114.5 with SMTP id r5mr1371231wam.196.1266954007635; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:40:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:40:07 -0800 Message-ID: <4934b8181002231140k10e5149ap1cdd9159007d52bf@mail.gmail.com> From: Alan Wen To: SAGE Members X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] Multiple openings for Service Engineers in yahoo X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:40:16 -0000 Yahoo!, the company I work for, has multiple 60+ openings for Service engineers! Send me an resume and I will help to forward to the hiring managers, :). Alan Service Engineers Do you know friends who=85 - Have a passion for solving technical problems, from the network to the application stack? - Want to write applications that provide infrastructure for deploying software to, manage, and maintain many thousands of servers? - Envision the ability to work with large scale systems which require performing almost no tasks manually? - Spend time trying to figure out how something works, not stopping with knowing just that it does? - Want to make real web applications and back-end systems faster, more reliable, more efficient? - Have extensive system administration background? - Have strong troubleshooting and problem solving skills, including application and network-level troubleshooting ability? - Have strong programming skills in one or more of: C, Perl, Python, Rub= y ? From jboris@adphila.org Tue Feb 23 12:12:16 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1NKCGgT042938 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:12:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jboris@adphila.org) Received: from chat2.adphila.org (chat2.adphila.org [64.9.9.80]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1NKCD0f018584 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:12:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw1.adphila.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chat2.adphila.org (Spam & Virus Firewall) with ESMTP id DC7DE324191 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from gw1.adphila.org ([172.19.2.123]) by chat2.adphila.org with ESMTP id qVV9pCCZFWxFPrNe for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from AOC-MTA by gw1.adphila.org with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:59:32 -0500 Message-Id: <4B83ED4D.2594.002B.0@adphila.org> X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 7.0.1 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:59:25 -0500 From: "John BORIS" To: "Alan Wen" , "SAGE Members" References: <4934b8181002231140k10e5149ap1cdd9159007d52bf@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4934b8181002231140k10e5149ap1cdd9159007d52bf@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1NKCGgT042938 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Multiple openings for Service Engineers in yahoo X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:12:16 -0000 Why would a person from yahoo soliciting applicants have an email address from Google? Isn't that like a person who works for Ford Driving a Chevy? >>> Alan Wen 2/23/2010 2:40 PM >>> Yahoo!, the company I work for, has multiple 60+ openings for Service engineers! Send me an resume and I will help to forward to the hiring managers, :). Alan Service Engineers Do you know friends who* - Have a passion for solving technical problems, from the network to the application stack? - Want to write applications that provide infrastructure for deploying software to, manage, and maintain many thousands of servers? - Envision the ability to work with large scale systems which require performing almost no tasks manually? - Spend time trying to figure out how something works, not stopping with knowing just that it does? - Want to make real web applications and back-end systems faster, more reliable, more efficient? - Have extensive system administration background? - Have strong troubleshooting and problem solving skills, including application and network-level troubleshooting ability? - Have strong programming skills in one or more of: C, Perl, Python, Ruby ? _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From richard@sullivan.cc Tue Feb 23 12:29:36 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1NKTatg043365 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:29:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from richard@sullivan.cc) Received: from defout.telus.net (defout.telus.net [204.209.205.55]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1NKTWST019123 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from edtnaa01.telusplanet.net ([75.154.254.138]) by priv-edtnes29.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.7.08.04.00 201-2186-134-20080326) with ESMTP id <20100223195908.QFA18714.priv-edtnes29.telusplanet.net@edtnaa01.telusplanet.net> for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:59:08 -0700 Received: from mail.sullivan.home (s75-154-254-138.bc.hsia.telus.net [75.154.254.138]) by edtnaa01.telusplanet.net (BorderWare Security Platform) with ESMTP id E05EB3E02BA9BB68 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:59:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sullivan.home (Postfix) with ESMTP id F276B1BC272 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:59:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sullivan.home Received: from mail.sullivan.home ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (max.sullivan.home [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7CfXkjC7yzdH for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:59:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from secure.sullivan.cc (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sullivan.home (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02061BC25A for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:59:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 137.82.4.76 (SquirrelMail authenticated user richard) by secure.sullivan.cc with HTTP; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:59:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4934b8181002231140k10e5149ap1cdd9159007d52bf@mail.gmail.com> References: <4934b8181002231140k10e5149ap1cdd9159007d52bf@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:59:07 -0800 (PST) From: "Richard Sullivan" To: "SAGE Members" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.17 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=14% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1NKTatg043365 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:39:08 -0800 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Multiple openings for Service Engineers in yahoo X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: richard@sullivan.cc List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:29:36 -0000 On Tue, February 23, 2010 11:40 am, Alan Wen wrote: > Yahoo!, the company I work for, has multiple 60+ openings for Service > engineers! > Ironically, from a gmail account... -- Richard From yesthattom@yahoo.com Tue Feb 23 13:06:59 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1NL6xaE044898 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:06:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yesthattom@yahoo.com) Received: from web51803.mail.re2.yahoo.com (web51803.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.38.234]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id o1NL6u8G020431 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 67057 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Feb 2010 21:00:11 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1266958811; bh=nTXZFpA2lEXUS1B7DoSS0RgZ+EU0hTjNmMRguwTBzSM=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=SpJLtGuWHqXU8GSc9Y7zKE4Y5ve5qU0zWXEDOnvo9IKXkU+J/lHdbRNuN98xFY9XFHgn7fmy32bprfMmJ45MNxcEhmCC7z957+cBsqyGhl1MAvV7XjIsIF0iasN/grM5FHF+WCsxRaZcZPPV+q2O+yfCptNtX0AipkkLQ5Hqe18= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=558auNOnBNQKBOl/dQRyZoSWxr/k1e4H8evQsOSjn/3JTT/EljII5Q5jghSAw3lwua6qGYYja1lwlIQpB3X4zpGtinFi4w8MJqcd/s/dsie23SWNldIBFJqgLLoKdCTwPbb2jroTpFoJ/cKSel3e6AvQboLr3ZS5ii+1cD+OTTg=; Message-ID: <999586.59239.qm@web51803.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: IjZb3QwVM1mDQIFhN60ZUfxD0GDvCdjsQqQLhUTPIfAYuTHQ74zYA6bpeH38ccTPIw4u9YDHaqyWYTDgnKatRAsuZ83s5MukUbHbwMvLbKNar3R36NwYIV7F32R2A.zqvVQ14XVQr46GflP3zC5b6Hrk7pdT.ZJMDK0nfZBK6ahxtzDDNJtMRSbFrmsn71J83ywd7zpnB9wFlnS5yjyVUyTcyK6nJR8KKzBUVrqK0lEBDlvGhifJWxnkVmO3Ji6muKCQyELadtV22FOzLVr.PiJpONVX5keVfLJ7Bg0rOlQkS2IJIbJCfkOPrWg6S...xoYxz9AxQl1bSUG0w25nAlUQho8vljqsDnhs68V8H4yxbQfOQeavaUamiq_WFTK31ZhFPqFCsA-- Received: from [72.14.228.129] by web51803.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:00:10 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/300.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:00:10 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Limoncelli To: SAGE Members MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=8% Subject: [SAGE] Multiple openings for Service Engineers in Google X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:07:00 -0000 Google, the company I work for, has multiple openings for Service engineers in NYC and Chicago! Perfect for entry-level sysadmins, or non-sysadmins that are highly technical and want to join the exciting world of customer support. We are also hiring sysadmins in [NYC, Mt. View, Zurich, Dublin, Boston, Seattle, and others]. Feel free to write to me if you have questions. Tom Limoncelli tal@whatexit.org -- http://EverythingSysadmin.com P.S. In solidarity with Alan Wen, who posted a Yahoo! job advert from his gmail account, I am posting this message about Google from my Yahoo account. But, seriously, please reply to my Google address: tlim@google.com -- Computer and network administrators... Spread the word! LOPSA New Jersey Professional IT Community Conference New Brunswick, NJ, May 7-8, 2010 -- http://picconf.org From mike.diehn@gmail.com Tue Feb 23 13:29:23 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1NLTND5045562 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:29:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike.diehn@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f177.google.com (mail-qy0-f177.google.com [209.85.221.177]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1NLTKSx021002 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:29:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk8 with SMTP id 8so49693qyk.4 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:29:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; bh=9wVc93NAGTMlBV6dB9DwmpkbFkyHd1lWSdS5d5Oi4Gw=; b=pJH95ETS5G9EgsCcjMSITv8oYRHnDGQgrtHUq36rfuWhVpHC1TatLk1PhpbT96qN/2 FEu0uLCMm0JrWARyu/X9pcLoJ7uNoc/maH7tBOj8MDaQRiZA+pEcso1DmjyQCfttYB1X MPyb8vv4g4F4tRHmEdae2Zl5saz8TGvWB2IOU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=ji26+T51YqIY8iYvd21d8wruq/B+Wym3pV+yDecwLGOdj3gyHawb9JE6R2nGNHVQOt MedZLXSgFddzmQ/wegnmxHmQE3/nv+mf9KVLj1AK33jZedN/EYXbaL787RNCyq36cZO8 m5Y+cg6uXPsNuhIN44TYqycojM5zPLHfzqHDM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mike.diehn@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.27.157 with SMTP id i29mr7197685qac.147.1266960094284; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:21:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B83ED4D.2594.002B.0@adphila.org> References: <4934b8181002231140k10e5149ap1cdd9159007d52bf@mail.gmail.com> <4B83ED4D.2594.002B.0@adphila.org> From: Mike Diehn Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:21:14 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: d47baea7dc62dbc5 Message-ID: <2a03c5ff1002231321y38d90bf3r27ebcee77b9c82a9@mail.gmail.com> To: John BORIS X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Multiple openings for Service Engineers in yahoo X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:29:24 -0000 Maybe he's thinking that sending that solicitation from his work account would be perceived as Yahoo! the company sending the message. Whereas, if he sends it from his personal account, it's just him as a private individual helping out the rest of us with some good info. On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 2:59 PM, John BORIS wrote: > Why would a person from yahoo soliciting applicants have an email address > from Google? Isn't that like a person who works for Ford Driving a Chevy? > > >>> Alan Wen 2/23/2010 2:40 PM >>> > Yahoo!, the company I work for, has multiple 60+ openings for Service > engineers! > > Send me an resume and I will help to forward to the hiring managers, :). > > Alan > > > Service Engineers > > Do you know friends who* > > - Have a passion for solving technical problems, from the network to the > application stack? > - Want to write applications that provide infrastructure for deploying > software to, manage, and maintain many thousands of servers? > - Envision the ability to work with large scale systems which require > performing almost no tasks manually? > - Spend time trying to figure out how something works, not stopping with > knowing just that it does? > - Want to make real web applications and back-end systems faster, more > reliable, more efficient? > - Have extensive system administration background? > - Have strong troubleshooting and problem solving skills, including > application and network-level troubleshooting ability? > - Have strong programming skills in one or more of: C, Perl, Python, Ruby > ? > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- Mike Diehn Diehn Consulting, LLC mike.diehn@gmail.com From jason@jasonantman.com Tue Feb 23 14:11:40 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1NMBesw046776 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:11:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jason@jasonantman.com) Received: from mailmaster.jasonantman.com (web2.jasonantman.com [96.57.180.134]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1NMBat2021882 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:11:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.43.136] (nat02-hill-ext.rutgers.edu [204.52.215.2]) by mailmaster.jasonantman.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id AA90E8D3D for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:03:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:11:35 -0500 From: Jason Antman User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070801) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 OpenPGP: url=http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x34EE2F92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:11:40 -0000 Yes, I know what you're all thinking from the subject, and I thought it too. I got an email from a colleague who is a long-time Windows admin and is currently managing a few admins and programmers. Though we didn't get into the details, I assume his department is mostly Windows. However, their web server farm (Debian-based boxes) is constantly growing, between more public-facing content and moving legacy apps to PHP-based web apps. They only have one Linux admin who's god on all of their web servers. Upper management has told him that he needs to get trained as a "LAMP Administrator", i.e. be ready to handle as much as he can if the linux admin is out or unavailable (or possibly gone??). I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training classes (at least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux administration, and even fewer for someone who's going to be entering a Debian environment. Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or online? Thanks, Jason Antman From awen1977@gmail.com Tue Feb 23 14:43:26 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1NMhQsc047709 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:43:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from awen1977@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com (mail-pw0-f41.google.com [209.85.160.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1NMhNLu022494 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:43:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwj7 with SMTP id 7so3576058pwj.28 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:43:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=kx0asqSj83pPLeFzLcm1fGuMSVhUqExxc9e1wiKKeJs=; b=KYPZhkBv/xF/XU5rkXoc7bWXH0QTIPhP6HGuM6iEuonVnUBwJDW4znrRlkvpXXWn+f OidCQagm3WLCod1LGZSWvJfdN1I0cQ6wRs9yztTHkh2kTYuLpH9q/kvYvpTe+hYmpyiY SzIFIpb26Jdz5gL3mt5D81iUewbJN0Nkks9Po= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=b2qs8OijsHtle96hXFR6VLrscVuDXFbv/6uxLwkMs/IZ9xxrMaHpAhHwpyvrRGR1Ym 0iECPwuUB7EogySIKkdyl3Femf+pZSkXSGlg4m1KJcQ7DAuPv2+ymTXbnMQjVWCFJZne gMUYs7ShrjbbDV25XVbHiAHiM/WDmDhf2hmLA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.163.13 with SMTP id l13mr2384686wae.121.1266964998359; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:43:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2a03c5ff1002231321y38d90bf3r27ebcee77b9c82a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4934b8181002231140k10e5149ap1cdd9159007d52bf@mail.gmail.com> <4B83ED4D.2594.002B.0@adphila.org> <2a03c5ff1002231321y38d90bf3r27ebcee77b9c82a9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:43:18 -0800 Message-ID: <4934b8181002231443g55c8d3b8l30e1c7b9d9a8ab47@mail.gmail.com> From: Alan Wen To: Mike Diehn X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: John BORIS , SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Multiple openings for Service Engineers in yahoo X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:43:27 -0000 Thanks, Mike. Yes, it is a personal effort to share the opportunities. I happen to use gmail account on this SAGE list, :). Alan On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Mike Diehn wrote: > > Maybe he's thinking that sending that solicitation from his work account > would be perceived as Yahoo! the company sending the message. Whereas, if > he sends it from his personal account, it's just him as a private individual > helping out the rest of us with some good info. > > > > > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 2:59 PM, John BORIS wrote: > >> Why would a person from yahoo soliciting applicants have an email address >> from Google? Isn't that like a person who works for Ford Driving a Chevy? >> >> >>> Alan Wen 2/23/2010 2:40 PM >>> >> Yahoo!, the company I work for, has multiple 60+ openings for Service >> engineers! >> >> Send me an resume and I will help to forward to the hiring managers, :). >> >> Alan >> >> >> Service Engineers >> >> Do you know friends who* >> >> - Have a passion for solving technical problems, from the network to the >> application stack? >> - Want to write applications that provide infrastructure for deploying >> software to, manage, and maintain many thousands of servers? >> - Envision the ability to work with large scale systems which require >> performing almost no tasks manually? >> - Spend time trying to figure out how something works, not stopping with >> knowing just that it does? >> - Want to make real web applications and back-end systems faster, more >> reliable, more efficient? >> - Have extensive system administration background? >> - Have strong troubleshooting and problem solving skills, including >> application and network-level troubleshooting ability? >> - Have strong programming skills in one or more of: C, Perl, Python, >> Ruby >> ? >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> > > > > -- > Mike Diehn > Diehn Consulting, LLC > mike.diehn@gmail.com > From maddog@li.org Tue Feb 23 17:09:21 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O19L5L051472 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:09:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from maddog@li.org) Received: from mail124c26.carrierzone.com (mail124c26.carrierzone.com [64.29.152.134]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O19Hjt025184 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:09:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authenticated-User: maddog.myfairpoint.net Received: from [192.168.2.100] (static-64-222-186-101.man.east.myfairpoint.net [64.222.186.101]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail124c26.carrierzone.com (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id o1O0OlHr015613; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:24:49 GMT From: "Jon 'maddog' Hall" To: Jason Antman In-Reply-To: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Organization: Linux International Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:24:47 -0500 Message-ID: <1266971087.3557.126.camel@shamet> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: maddog@li.org List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:09:22 -0000 Jason, Lintraining.com is a site run by an old friend of mine, David Whitinger. It is voluntary (but free of charge) to fill in the information about your site, so you may have to call a few places to see if they still offer classes, and you may have to play a bit with the URLs that it gives you to find a current one, but it allows you to put in your zip code (in this case "Manhattan"): http://lintraining.com/m/d/search/geosearch.php?zip=10020 and gives back a series of different companies, including IBM: http://www-3.ibm.com/services/learning/training.html which had to be massaged to: http://www.ibm.com/services/learning/training.html but you know how that is. Here is another example from the same website: http://www.hp.com/education/sections/linux.html Here is one from New Jersey http://www.malicom.com/ Go to www.lintraining.com to start searching. It is too bad the management can't understand "self study" ( "i.e. they want something they can cut a check for" ) The management probably would be unimpressed to know that I taught myself how to program through a Western Electric correspondence course in 1969 ("How to Program the IBM 1130 in FORTRAN"), or that I taught myself how to program in assembly language through reading some DEC "Pocketbooks" given to me by my DEC salesman. Or that I took a job programming in IBM's BAL after only reading a book on it. (sigh) md From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Tue Feb 23 17:10:07 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O1A7SG051491 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:10:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toq11-srv.bellnexxia.net (toq11-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.118]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O1A3H1025198 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:10:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from toip3.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.86]) by tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100224005446.VKRC1786.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip3.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:54:46 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAKMChEtMQR7M/2dsb2JhbAAH2geEbgSDFQ Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279336140.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.65.30.204]) by toip3.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 23 Feb 2010 19:43:09 -0500 Message-Id: <33E85541-B256-45BC-A9EC-4F8E321616D0@ee.ryerson.ca> From: David Magda To: Jason Antman In-Reply-To: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:54:46 -0500 References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=51% Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:10:07 -0000 On Feb 23, 2010, at 17:11, Jason Antman wrote: > I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, > but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital > into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. Book learning gets you going, but you need to practice. For a start, switch the primary desktop (either at work and/or at home) to Debian and start using it. Nothing learns you like having to use something day after day. At $WORK I have a corporate laptop for Outlook and the enterprise ticketing system, but have a Linux desktop for all my "real work": Solaris and Linux. I have one screen connected to the Linux machine, and use a single keyboard & mouse, and use Synergy to move focus between the two systems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy%2B http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy_(software) > I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be > picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training > classes (at least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux > administration, and even fewer for someone who's going to be > entering a Debian environment. > > Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or > online? $WORK has a deal with Global Knowledge: I did an intro ITIL course that was pretty informative and from what others have said they've had pleasant experiences with the classes as well. They have a few Red Hat- based courses that will be occurring in NYC: http://www.globalknowledge.com/training/category.asp?catid=400 I'm guessing RH033 and 131 would be where to start (in that order probably). It's not Debian, but "Unix is Unix" to a large extent. Debian is more of a community, so you don't have a centralized mechanism for developing training programs and such. From mike.diehn@gmail.com Tue Feb 23 17:17:32 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O1HWKG051662 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:17:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike.diehn@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.149]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O1HSrr025385 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:17:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so631111qwf.22 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:17:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; bh=N6lVhCt34Pgxyb8BPpi7B2vLqszn5J77jguUXsFQGdk=; b=ZzZKMIkz3U06AfVhKoGWodZmhvkttCVemeruXfUnsRkONTwL1kY1mP8WHvVr8bE01D EqP9ARJNssVVolOOJKkegZ4gLg7u9Ik4NVLEqyr4mULmm1RhfljyOGyQFuLnNZYWQXvp /rJUM3G3TcsNulXuTUP16cKb7pI8r4qRKXE3o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=Gn8fglbjX5F1jJ/u9loRNA9a9f595CXxZY0nmET/wc+NmErNYq0R8RorUd5SEGHrUs hQDo7yc9d2UPrPNbAR5IyMTdhRtV5ULIAjMbvEWr3z4NnphhCi+ii4p+3qGI5ZiYyTrq SkVTDZeLB+eaPOtiBM5FqxgW1hwRrpgl5Q1XY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mike.diehn@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.95.141 with SMTP id d13mr1262098qan.18.1266974248208; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:17:28 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> From: Mike Diehn Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:17:08 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ac44a33bec0536af Message-ID: <2a03c5ff1002231717k63d6ff59o3bac15431a7a4429@mail.gmail.com> To: Jason Antman X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:17:32 -0000 Community colleges, tech schools and the like often offer an Intro to SysAdmin using Linux. Google for "community colleges of new jersey" led me to this: http://www.50states.com/cc/newjerse.htm and editing that URL got me to this: http://www.50states.com/cc/newyork.htm Here's a listing for certification programs I got to through some more creative googling: http://www.emagister.net/linux+administration+programs/ek-1466.htm That site seems to have a decent search engine, too. Maybe your friend's company would put out for some travel to get him to short duration, non-local programs? Good luck! Best, Mike On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Jason Antman wrote: > Yes, I know what you're all thinking from the subject, and I thought it > too. > > I got an email from a colleague who is a long-time Windows admin and is > currently managing a few admins and programmers. Though we didn't get > into the details, I assume his department is mostly Windows. However, > their web server farm (Debian-based boxes) is constantly growing, > between more public-facing content and moving legacy apps to PHP-based > web apps. They only have one Linux admin who's god on all of their web > servers. Upper management has told him that he needs to get trained as a > "LAMP Administrator", i.e. be ready to handle as much as he can if the > linux admin is out or unavailable (or possibly gone??). > > I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, > but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital > into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. > > I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be > picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training classes > (at least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux administration, and even > fewer for someone who's going to be entering a Debian environment. > > Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or > online? > > Thanks, > Jason Antman > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- Mike Diehn Diehn Consulting, LLC mike.diehn@gmail.com From dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca Tue Feb 23 18:36:50 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O2ao3g053692 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:36:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmagda@ee.ryerson.ca) Received: from toq5-srv.bellnexxia.net (toq5-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.27]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O2akTX027630 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from toip5.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.88]) by tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20100224014632.BVDV28265.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip5.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:46:32 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApEBAMcRhEtMQR7M/2dsb2JhbAAH2hCEbgSDFQ Received: from bas1-toronto09-1279336140.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.1.103]) ([76.65.30.204]) by toip5.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 23 Feb 2010 20:46:04 -0500 Message-Id: <949C70F6-326B-4662-BBD2-03517536F2A7@ee.ryerson.ca> From: David Magda To: maddog@li.org In-Reply-To: <1266971087.3557.126.camel@shamet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:46:31 -0500 References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> <1266971087.3557.126.camel@shamet> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:36:50 -0000 On Feb 23, 2010, at 19:24, Jon 'maddog' Hall wrote: > It is too bad the management can't understand "self study" It may also be that they're in a bit of a rush, and so are willing to pay for "concentrated learning"--at least to get the basics down. From treed@copilotco.com Tue Feb 23 18:43:05 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O2h4bp053935 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:43:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O2h13E027764 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:43:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id CA0F264C6B; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:43:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:43:21 -0800 From: Tracy Reed To: Mike Diehn Message-ID: <20100224024321.GM22103@tracyreed.org> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> <2a03c5ff1002231717k63d6ff59o3bac15431a7a4429@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wwtQuX191/I956S7" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2a03c5ff1002231717k63d6ff59o3bac15431a7a4429@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:43:05 -0000 --wwtQuX191/I956S7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 08:17:08PM -0500, Mike Diehn spake thusly: > Community colleges, tech schools and the like often offer an Intro to > SysAdmin using Linux. Google for "community colleges of new jersey" led = me > to this: My wife has recently expressed an interest in learning basic Linux skills so she can better understand what our company does.=20 We are too close to have any patience with each other so I cannot teach her. She just doesn't like online classes (although she is taking a few in her MBA program right now) and wants a classroom/lab environment. All of the community colleges and school districts who used to teach Linux here in San Diego have cancelled all of their Linux classes as of the last couple of years. There used to be several options. Now there isn't a single one to be had anywhere in San Diego County as far as I know. When approached about it the existing computer teachers verge on hostility (presumably because Linux isn't their thing and threatens that which is). There are various conspiracy theories about what happened but the most likely seems to be that the economy did in the Linux classes. There are some very pricey private school options. The best I can find is a 5 day crash-course for $2,338 starting this March. Ouch. Too pricey and likely too fast for her to benefit from. As a result of all of this a friend and I from the LUG are seriously considering starting our own local Linux class. He has taught Linux before both online and in-person and has access to a professionally designed curriculum. I doubt there is any money in it and we will be happy to cover our costs but it seems like something that needs to be done. I owe the community anyway for all the training and other resources they have given me over the years. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --wwtQuX191/I956S7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLhJJJ9PIYKZYVAq0RAmaRAJ4rct/CNQIaUrMJHWda48RApbxeXACeIjqx 7V5/3i5/CO0eTsKVlpmnfIw= =i7ZZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wwtQuX191/I956S7-- From sechrest@gmail.com Tue Feb 23 18:53:20 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O2rKAq054170 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:53:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sechrest@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pv0-f169.google.com (mail-pv0-f169.google.com [74.125.83.169]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O2rH0T028027 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:53:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by pvh11 with SMTP id 11so568454pvh.28 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:53:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=r4AGVhsWWXv9S7+E4Yf7T1NZuQUI61OktBFuYs9veTc=; b=n5sjk0Rc+qZVOS565SPIDE19sJcKWoSO/NcaCx8lhfWm9jCUrkdLn+p61+xLUPOwv2 LAJHPlCBZyoXqbDzM4Mnbr8EIMjc2Cmc8ElJwirVsAC3dILNj7tfXwM1+TXfjDC7qkip c2Fn/m26Vaw9+GNNTS6WUqa+NwMUkM5IGvbs0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=WaQh2Tyo0LvK8Tj2Hvzn679utgFu2HbEj0E9Dtz6NEhZpxvlyzFwiI+LEOZ+SmKWEU FOVAfveaby4dBhR6fdkrzCI6XgNCMmHBwfVjglvCuJq6VLRStlICdLjE+BHqD6Yz5Twi FGlRPRYrh7eyjNKyLytlDCvSTczIaUlAaoEqc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: sechrest@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.188.23 with SMTP id l23mr149395waf.40.1266979991317; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:53:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100224024321.GM22103@tracyreed.org> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> <2a03c5ff1002231717k63d6ff59o3bac15431a7a4429@mail.gmail.com> <20100224024321.GM22103@tracyreed.org> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:53:11 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3ee4f3768a845cc3 Message-ID: <313372bc1002231853x4594f695n2ec7e8eff774a233@mail.gmail.com> From: John Sechrest To: Tracy Reed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:53:21 -0000 I taught System Admin for several years at a University. There are few options that I know about these days. But the UCBerkely system did have a System Admin extension course that was interesting. There are several books on system admin that we used to use in the courses. So there are reasonable places to start. You may find that you don't need a whole "Course" , but a "Course of study" That is to have a collection of tasks/skills that you want to have. And then from that backcast what learning is needed. When I taught my courses, I would use a Wiki at the center of the discussion. And the first assignment was to get a copy linux Journal, read an article and put up on the wiki 10 words were knew/unknown. And then to expand upon the definitions of those words. If you then work thru the material with the LUG and your friend, you will not only get your wife to know more linux, but you will create a resource that others will find interesting. At the end of my courses, the students would get to walk away with the wiki materials for the course. On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 6:43 PM, Tracy Reed wrote: > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 08:17:08PM -0500, Mike Diehn spake thusly: > > Community colleges, tech schools and the like often offer an Intro to > > SysAdmin using Linux. Google for "community colleges of new jersey" led > me > > to this: > > My wife has recently expressed an interest in learning basic Linux > skills so she can better understand what our company does. > > We are too close to have any patience with each other so I cannot > teach her. She just doesn't like online classes (although she is > taking a few in her MBA program right now) and wants a classroom/lab > environment. All of the community colleges and school districts who > used to teach Linux here in San Diego have cancelled all of their > Linux classes as of the last couple of years. There used to be several > options. Now there isn't a single one to be had anywhere in San Diego > County as far as I know. When approached about it the existing > computer teachers verge on hostility (presumably because Linux isn't > their thing and threatens that which is). There are various conspiracy > theories about what happened but the most likely seems to be that the > economy did in the Linux classes. > > There are some very pricey private school options. The best I can find > is a 5 day crash-course for $2,338 starting this March. Ouch. Too > pricey and likely too fast for her to benefit from. > > As a result of all of this a friend and I from the LUG are seriously > considering starting our own local Linux class. He has taught Linux > before both online and in-person and has access to a professionally > designed curriculum. > > I doubt there is any money in it and we will be happy to cover our > costs but it seems like something that needs to be done. I owe the > community anyway for all the training and other resources they have > given me over the years. > > -- > Tracy Reed > http://tracyreed.org > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > -- John Sechrest . Corvallis Benton . Chamber Coalition . 420 NW 2nd . (541) 757-1507 . sechrest@corvallisedp.com . . From kurin@delete.org Tue Feb 23 19:27:13 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O3RCdQ055090 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:27:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurin@delete.org) Received: from carbon.delete.org (carbon.delete.org [173.203.205.179]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O3R9aS028724 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:27:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from carbon.delete.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by carbon.delete.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E923C8275; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:17:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by carbon.delete.org (Postfix, from userid 1006) id BFA2D89E8; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:17:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:17:19 -0500 From: Toby Burress To: John Sechrest Message-ID: <20100224031719.GB30728@carbon.delete.org> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> <2a03c5ff1002231717k63d6ff59o3bac15431a7a4429@mail.gmail.com> <20100224024321.GM22103@tracyreed.org> <313372bc1002231853x4594f695n2ec7e8eff774a233@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <313372bc1002231853x4594f695n2ec7e8eff774a233@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members , Tracy Reed Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 03:27:13 -0000 Seriously: freebsd.org/handbook On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 06:53:11PM -0800, John Sechrest wrote: > I taught System Admin for several years at a University. There are few > options that I know about these days. But the UCBerkely system did have a > System Admin extension course that was interesting. > > There are several books on system admin that we used to use in the courses. > So there are reasonable places to start. > > You may find that you don't need a whole "Course" , but a "Course of study" > > That is to have a collection of tasks/skills that you want to have. And then > from that backcast what learning is needed. > > When I taught my courses, I would use a Wiki at the center of the > discussion. And the first assignment was to get a copy linux Journal, read > an article and put up on the wiki 10 words were knew/unknown. And then to > expand upon the definitions of those words. > > If you then work thru the material with the LUG and your friend, you will > not only get your wife to know more linux, but you will create a resource > that others will find interesting. > > At the end of my courses, the students would get to walk away with the wiki > materials for the course. > > > > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 6:43 PM, Tracy Reed wrote: > > > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 08:17:08PM -0500, Mike Diehn spake thusly: > > > Community colleges, tech schools and the like often offer an Intro to > > > SysAdmin using Linux. Google for "community colleges of new jersey" led > > me > > > to this: > > > > My wife has recently expressed an interest in learning basic Linux > > skills so she can better understand what our company does. > > > > We are too close to have any patience with each other so I cannot > > teach her. She just doesn't like online classes (although she is > > taking a few in her MBA program right now) and wants a classroom/lab > > environment. All of the community colleges and school districts who > > used to teach Linux here in San Diego have cancelled all of their > > Linux classes as of the last couple of years. There used to be several > > options. Now there isn't a single one to be had anywhere in San Diego > > County as far as I know. When approached about it the existing > > computer teachers verge on hostility (presumably because Linux isn't > > their thing and threatens that which is). There are various conspiracy > > theories about what happened but the most likely seems to be that the > > economy did in the Linux classes. > > > > There are some very pricey private school options. The best I can find > > is a 5 day crash-course for $2,338 starting this March. Ouch. Too > > pricey and likely too fast for her to benefit from. > > > > As a result of all of this a friend and I from the LUG are seriously > > considering starting our own local Linux class. He has taught Linux > > before both online and in-person and has access to a professionally > > designed curriculum. > > > > I doubt there is any money in it and we will be happy to cover our > > costs but it seems like something that needs to be done. I owe the > > community anyway for all the training and other resources they have > > given me over the years. > > > > -- > > Tracy Reed > > http://tracyreed.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sage-members mailing list > > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > > > > > > -- > John Sechrest . > Corvallis Benton . > Chamber Coalition . > 420 NW 2nd . > (541) 757-1507 . sechrest@corvallisedp.com > . > > > . > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From kurt.buff@gmail.com Tue Feb 23 19:37:02 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O3b1vQ055284 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:37:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.145]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O3awAn028971 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:37:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so648927qwf.22 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:36:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=noAuAxBROaUK0z4eVYzDis7gOA/UTlNVjjJCM6eda+Q=; b=jNtom05AlbRLRdRFIY+6rBJF1zLdAuBad3lX70pxJbbc64wb3xSsaNfVw8WmsYR9nU 7Kgst3JWQ+91nsDvZM4iIXzferbEDjRJf8yPdCFS5BECfvecx7w69gBtc65M7hycMqdc eJZcUnc9oUnKe8izmf80uv4sAgGJxUwC6kQqQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=f0ye/VOMltyNiOG6olJdiCCwPEyF+mRRF63oDeD8PfUB2C50bDP0lPiwXGF0BuegKG Ljs6r6Uz3OOVWc7UFj6NheYedh3nTeXJGNxQKY+PND3x6lZfBBo7zK1ZCPmfq6LaPp69 G83bCxSFs1LRhYXLreLQWrndj44pIpQH049L4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.101.146 with SMTP id c18mr5376014qao.269.1266982618184; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:36:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100224031719.GB30728@carbon.delete.org> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> <2a03c5ff1002231717k63d6ff59o3bac15431a7a4429@mail.gmail.com> <20100224024321.GM22103@tracyreed.org> <313372bc1002231853x4594f695n2ec7e8eff774a233@mail.gmail.com> <20100224031719.GB30728@carbon.delete.org> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:36:58 -0800 Message-ID: From: Kurt Buff To: Toby Burress Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1O3b1vQ055284 Cc: SAGE Members , Tracy Reed Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 03:37:02 -0000 +1 On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 19:17, Toby Burress wrote: > Seriously: freebsd.org/handbook > > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 06:53:11PM -0800, John Sechrest wrote: >> I taught System Admin for several years at a University. There are few >> options that I know about these days. But the UCBerkely system did have a >> System Admin extension course that was interesting. >> >> There are several books on system admin that we used to use in the courses. >> So there are reasonable places to start. >> >> You may find that you don't need a whole "Course" , but a "Course of study" >> >> That is to have a collection of tasks/skills that you want to have. And then >> from that backcast what learning is needed. >> >> When I taught my courses, I would use a Wiki at the center of the >> discussion. And the first assignment was to get a copy linux Journal, read >> an article and put up on the wiki 10 words were knew/unknown. And then to >> expand upon the definitions of those words. >> >> If you then work thru the material with the LUG and your friend, you will >> not only get your wife to know more linux, but you will create a resource >> that others will find interesting. >> >> At the end of my courses, the students would get to walk away with the wiki >> materials for the course. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 6:43 PM, Tracy Reed wrote: >> >> > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 08:17:08PM -0500, Mike Diehn spake thusly: >> > > Community colleges, tech schools and the like often offer an Intro to >> > > SysAdmin using Linux.  Google for "community colleges of new jersey" led >> > me >> > > to this: >> > >> > My wife has recently expressed an interest in learning basic Linux >> > skills so she can better understand what our company does. >> > >> > We are too close to have any patience with each other so I cannot >> > teach her. She just doesn't like online classes (although she is >> > taking a few in her MBA program right now) and wants a classroom/lab >> > environment. All of the community colleges and school districts who >> > used to teach Linux here in San Diego have cancelled all of their >> > Linux classes as of the last couple of years. There used to be several >> > options. Now there isn't a single one to be had anywhere in San Diego >> > County as far as I know. When approached about it the existing >> > computer teachers verge on hostility (presumably because Linux isn't >> > their thing and threatens that which is). There are various conspiracy >> > theories about what happened but the most likely seems to be that the >> > economy did in the Linux classes. >> > >> > There are some very pricey private school options. The best I can find >> > is a 5 day crash-course for $2,338 starting this March. Ouch. Too >> > pricey and likely too fast for her to benefit from. >> > >> > As a result of all of this a friend and I from the LUG are seriously >> > considering starting our own local Linux class. He has taught Linux >> > before both online and in-person and has access to a professionally >> > designed curriculum. >> > >> > I doubt there is any money in it and we will be happy to cover our >> > costs but it seems like something that needs to be done. I owe the >> > community anyway for all the training and other resources they have >> > given me over the years. >> > >> > -- >> > Tracy Reed >> > http://tracyreed.org >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > sage-members mailing list >> > sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> John Sechrest          . >> Corvallis Benton        . >>    Chamber Coalition      . >>       420 NW 2nd                   . >>              (541) 757-1507              . sechrest@corvallisedp.com >>                                                                      . >> >> >>        . >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From kurt.buff@gmail.com Tue Feb 23 19:44:01 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O3i1oR055475 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:44:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.145]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O3hwi1029140 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:44:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so649700qwf.22 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:43:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=J8/aQfGUOAJqpt/fzAaOsdntSaQAsxmNIJE3dobhZVQ=; b=KS8XOmacWm8X9PTFk3NTEf464X0yerSBXqRA9D+/shgZH+FrRg/XzAQ6aU96OxkD3h R7cl+F+f58f8yaWxcTVm6rfd/+B41+8F5fHMobw4PjO9HROgB036xH4Rf59owKt0p3lr nxqrP3oVlxyvqV4MgmZAy542hJ1M3k+cFmHw4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=j0LkuAg5UA/FTLTEZyTLlsJtnOUUg3f1aC8kXpSL4vLg9EEbS1rcng5U23siyd00xO sbQqb1PbDL/1J5f33pdq/px8b/vMUX5WiPl/4MGKG6ptxPaKEPvb8PHGW+W6ZIcAvnl/ UhrgqaADuDF8UVG45WfhLAeUzFR+kohoeF2bQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.106.80 with SMTP id w16mr134789qao.362.1266982569597; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:36:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:36:09 -0800 Message-ID: From: Kurt Buff To: Jason Antman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=6% Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 03:44:02 -0000 On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 14:11, Jason Antman wrote: > Yes, I know what you're all thinking from the subject, and I thought it > too. > > I got an email from a colleague who is a long-time Windows admin and is > currently managing a few admins and programmers. Though we didn't get > into the details, I assume his department is mostly Windows. However, > their web server farm (Debian-based boxes) is constantly growing, > between more public-facing content and moving legacy apps to PHP-based > web apps. They only have one Linux admin who's god on all of their web > servers. Upper management has told him that he needs to get trained as a > "LAMP Administrator", i.e. be ready to handle as much as he can if the > linux admin is out or unavailable (or possibly gone??). > > I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, > but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital > into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. > > I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be > picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training classes > (at least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux administration, and even > fewer for someone who's going to be entering a Debian environment. > > Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or online? It's not *exactly* linux, but perhaps this might be of some use? http://www.bsdcertification.org/ has a CD/DVD with learning materials and installables. Just a thought. Kurt From bwhitehd@gmail.com Tue Feb 23 21:00:29 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O50St7057650 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:00:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bwhitehd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com (mail-vw0-f41.google.com [209.85.212.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O50NkR000946 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws15 with SMTP id 15so283445vws.28 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:00:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=+i/ErK0n/zB2+kyYo3p7HfD2CDAdkhyqgWN4uvqUFYw=; b=iKx8mQcQNOpkr1QGht1NsxynHmikgnE4I3OQzjMAnPAb78kg50qLNTdO65uGAUtj7q QyZPmfAQE/6GLQprPpY7Q0VB4mctElK1EpquNzJMkmb9ld6fF93hCjy4COcbAnvQB7CB 1JrdKZn70EOjsDbVzk4zLWWgLIqBiwPXV7lHU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=OYKmqdhrmtUMyib1UqpPxS13vmjmNZmrP6iOTa+YKx31qGgQivpT+/HGjnRZ4DmCj6 /iDFwirW/SYLTA6wgQW6m5tdR56ULFZrfFZiAZJHFhHJbp+t1qY6EW+yqkmqggGpYJNU Rq1d5i5okD9SlyxGMCklIq3AtzBkvrXm9oESs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.122.141 with SMTP id l13mr2405183vcr.172.1266987615094; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:00:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> From: Brian Whitehead Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:59:55 -0500 Message-ID: To: Jason Antman X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=1% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 05:00:29 -0000 I used to think that the Sair/GNU Linux certification courses ( http://www.linuxcertification.org/) were great years ago for distribution independent training. Unfortunately, some Thomson Prometric bought them out and basically let them die. They were offered at New Horizons and similar locations. According to their site, they still exist, but the curriculum doesn't appear to have been updated in years. The Red Hat training is good, but obviously geared to their products. The overall Linux information still applies to Debian, with the exception of the package manager and few other things. You might want to take a look at training classes for the CompTIA Linux+ or the LPI certifications. There should be companies that offer these in your area. Take the information as a starting point and build on it. A lot of times, the trainers of these classes aren't Linux gurus, just trainers following a curriculum. Over the years I've read a lot of docs provided by this company that are good. They provide training and even cover the LPI cert. ttp:// www.gurulabs.com/linux-training/courses/ There are plenty of resources out there, you just have to do a little searching. Make sure you get some references on anything you're going to pay money for though. -- Brian On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Jason Antman wrote: > Yes, I know what you're all thinking from the subject, and I thought it > too. > > I got an email from a colleague who is a long-time Windows admin and is > currently managing a few admins and programmers. Though we didn't get > into the details, I assume his department is mostly Windows. However, > their web server farm (Debian-based boxes) is constantly growing, > between more public-facing content and moving legacy apps to PHP-based > web apps. They only have one Linux admin who's god on all of their web > servers. Upper management has told him that he needs to get trained as a > "LAMP Administrator", i.e. be ready to handle as much as he can if the > linux admin is out or unavailable (or possibly gone??). > > I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, > but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital > into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. > > I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be > picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training classes > (at least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux administration, and even > fewer for someone who's going to be entering a Debian environment. > > Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or > online? > > Thanks, > Jason Antman > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From cheselka@gmail.com Tue Feb 23 21:52:06 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O5q61c058981 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:52:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cheselka@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ww0-f41.google.com (mail-ww0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O5q2e9002083 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:52:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by wwb24 with SMTP id 24so985552wwb.28 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:51:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/kMAvEwaQcbTkH6OuLRlxskXAUEBTOVL/zkaDmQet6A=; b=gcCe34GQI7SLEwvkhbECmWinl+AHms8EHU01PeBKQF9bmW1c+QDggGg28MHXSGfioQ XSoPtUgfsDDabTUAY/EuzIL+yfupCC72TBYHGxLFoTfCNpHduVjPSv7d+EPZFRblH1o9 mdbzXe+l0zGEUGhjvbx4SngBWi+YGhDxcqUl0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=qhUgaLzb0rZsNHpHGC7kKKllpUX8/Scuy58D8dC0HN3Oeun2qruD73dcd/zvYvx05p FuEjLz1m+ng9SL8U07Q+NYY+XIH8vTNePkx5puAQxdhwXe+foWoX1QB8/xfEGG9PHHJG 0FQUJCbInLVrOAMNPezgtyBBt8Y2ehNK1J8pU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.165.148 with SMTP id e20mr1999688wel.29.1266990717116; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:51:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> From: Michael Cheselka Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:51:37 -0800 Message-ID: <3c6fb8811002232151h5ad534bar81bc4eabfbf4a0f4@mail.gmail.com> To: Brian Whitehead Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=18% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1O5q61c058981 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 05:52:07 -0000 Hello, HP Learning is good and free. O'Reilly has classes of varying costs. http://www.hp.com/united-states/hho/classes/ http://www.oreillyschool.com/ Regards, Michael Cheselka 650-488-4820 On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 20:59, Brian Whitehead wrote: > I used to think that the Sair/GNU Linux certification courses ( > http://www.linuxcertification.org/) were great years ago for distribution > independent training.  Unfortunately, some Thomson Prometric bought them out > and basically let them die.  They were offered at New Horizons and similar > locations.  According to their site, they still exist, but the curriculum > doesn't appear to have been updated in years. > > The Red Hat training is good, but obviously geared to their products.  The > overall Linux information still applies to Debian, with the exception of the > package manager and few other things. > > You might want to take a look at training classes for the CompTIA Linux+ or > the LPI certifications.  There should be companies that offer these in your > area.  Take the information as a starting point and build on it.  A lot of > times, the trainers of these classes aren't Linux gurus, just trainers > following a curriculum. > > Over the years I've read a lot of docs provided by this company that are > good.  They provide training and even cover the LPI cert.  ttp:// > www.gurulabs.com/linux-training/courses/ > > There are plenty of resources out there, you just have to do a little > searching.  Make sure you get some references on anything you're going to > pay money for though. > > -- Brian > > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Jason Antman wrote: > >> Yes, I know what you're all thinking from the subject, and I thought it >> too. >> >> I got an email from a colleague who is a long-time Windows admin and is >> currently managing a few admins and programmers. Though we didn't get >> into the details, I assume his department is mostly Windows. However, >> their web server farm (Debian-based boxes) is constantly growing, >> between more public-facing content and moving legacy apps to PHP-based >> web apps. They only have one Linux admin who's god on all of their web >> servers. Upper management has told him that he needs to get trained as a >> "LAMP Administrator", i.e. be ready to handle as much as he can if the >> linux admin is out or unavailable (or possibly gone??). >> >> I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, >> but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital >> into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. >> >> I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be >> picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training classes >> (at least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux administration, and even >> fewer for someone who's going to be entering a Debian environment. >> >> Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or >> online? >> >> Thanks, >> Jason Antman >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From hcoyote@ghostar.org Tue Feb 23 22:00:19 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1O60JqC059338 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:00:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hcoyote@ghostar.org) Received: from mail-gx0-f220.google.com (mail-gx0-f220.google.com [209.85.217.220]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1O60FPw002350 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:00:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by gxk20 with SMTP id 20so1549425gxk.18 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:00:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.127.25 with SMTP id z25mr1729489ybc.11.1266989400524; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:30:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:30:00 -0600 Message-ID: <3bdbc7111002232130o8903b27m9d23d66b31b3cce8@mail.gmail.com> From: Travis To: Brian Whitehead Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=12% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1O60JqC059338 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:00:20 -0000 On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:59 PM, Brian Whitehead wrote: > The Red Hat training is good, but obviously geared to their products.  The > overall Linux information still applies to Debian, with the exception of the > package manager and few other things. Canonical's Ubuntu training may be more directly applicable in this instance because of Ubuntu's close ties to Debian. http://www.ubuntu.com/training/ I've never tried it, so I don't know how good the courses are. Travis -- Travis Campbell hcoyote@ghostar.org From jack@coats.org Wed Feb 24 07:02:38 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1OF2cL2072398 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:02:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@coats.org) Received: from smarthost.csg.iadfw.net (smarthost.csg.iadfw.net [216.39.194.17]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1OF2Zoj027590 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:02:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [216.39.194.26] (helo=vsd.csg.iadfw.net) by smarthost.csg.iadfw.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NkIIn-0007Fg-AF for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:33:25 -0600 Received: (qmail 20976 invoked by uid 11429); 24 Feb 2010 08:33:25 -0600 Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com by vsd.csg.iadfw.net (envelope-from , uid 2020) with qmail-scanner-2.06st (perlscan: 2.06st. Clear:RC:0(209.85.160.169):. Processed in 0.015097 secs); 24 Feb 2010 14:33:25 -0000 Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com (209.85.160.169) by 216.39.195.133 with (RC4-MD5 encrypted) SMTP; 24 Feb 2010 08:33:25 -0600 Received: by gyd10 with SMTP id 10so617899gyd.28 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:33:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.81.5 with SMTP id e5mr85492ybb.158.1267022005140; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:33:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> From: "Jack@coats.org" Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:33:04 -0600 Message-ID: <48555fa41002240633i27764dfcv36fad4eca861ea69@mail.gmail.com> To: SAGE Members Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=46% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:02:39 -0000 Since your wife doesn't want to be a professional admin, you might consider a more informal approach. Find a good version of 'admin for dummies' or equivalent starter book, Get the equipment to put together a small lab (4 to 8 machines, of dumpster diving quality, but you can verify that it all works, just to keep her frustration down) Get her to go with you to a few local unix/linux user group meetings and find a mentor for her (i.e. not you!) that would agree to a few hands on sessions, providing some direction. Have her work with the mentor to define a course of study, and one or two 'end of course projects'. Just some thoughts that might help ... If you are up for a 'story', this is what I did to try to get my new wife to understand why being a programmer was so important to me... Not long after we got married, when I was a programmer before being an admin, I asked my new wife to write one program that would mean something to her. I thought her the basics of syntax, looping, and we chose BASIC, as it was the language of the neophytes of the day (mid-'80s). She wrote an address program. ... It started out to be just a list of names, addresses, and phone numbers. Then we figured out how to do I/O to disk. But to update it and to allow more names, etc, she made it use direct access files. Then she learned sorting and various techniques. Eventually to speed up the sort she updated it to do indexed sorts. ... Then we addressed methods of doing report writing, doing labels, etc, etc! .. In short, she turned into a pretty good programmer. It was more than I ever expected. I worked hard to not coax directions, but to give answers with multiple options as the results (how do you write a loop? index at top, at bottom, non-linear or defined index, that kind of thing). At least after we got past the first super basics of minimal logic and minimal language syntax. It worked well for us. She found it was fun and frustrating at the same time, and in the end she understood the allure and pull that programming had for me. A definite win-win situation. I hope you have similar positive results. From timetrap@gmail.com Wed Feb 24 07:04:19 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1OF4Jxg072443 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:04:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from timetrap@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pv0-f169.google.com (mail-pv0-f169.google.com [74.125.83.169]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1OF4GYX027680 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by pvh11 with SMTP id 11so767415pvh.28 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:04:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=k9OsKI/lsv/4YdVIEV2wdN2LBs0MyIRZ/izgpMrHh1I=; b=qjU/+K7T1xGbeSB1hOZ8DqJbKW1At9sc4mcI6g1OcI4amwcSASS8cLVr6I0ecEFP6a khvHhxyCSI4dkLkA+9lBcg52bSoa2rwNPummJBoCO4rO/HOpmhcWKj1A/avjfKhqhaeY bhZ19F/V+KKMf8pA/RknO+BNXBWsEzpJ8BA04= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=efwe7NTNMWjIOUvwEuNqSO16mm7FEanaXBXohjOJWYJAjBzXGdZd0zwNgGk51Bcwv4 ozBLcvV0eFABLwotLcANWRxeLRfbgqhJ4dxu83J9WS6CurtQfoEXbOs6rqPV5Z9sO/4+ o39fkoMWoS3bmKSN+uC7QaehA3B9Bq7PnkaG8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: timetrap@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.5.25 with SMTP id 25mr2353600wfe.268.1267023854183; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:04:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <33E85541-B256-45BC-A9EC-4F8E321616D0@ee.ryerson.ca> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> <33E85541-B256-45BC-A9EC-4F8E321616D0@ee.ryerson.ca> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:04:14 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ad4fc9930d5eedee Message-ID: From: Joseph Kern To: David Magda Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:04:19 -0000 > For a start, switch the primary desktop (either at work and/or at home) to Debian and start using it. Nothing learns you like having to use something day after day. Same here: I admin in a 99% Windows environment. I have a netbook with Windows 7 and a desktop running Arch Linux (or Ubuntu, whichever I feel like). An unexpected benefit from running Linux on the desktop: I have access to many security tools (like nmap) that are usually blocked at the enterprise level proxy. In my case running linux as a windows admin actually makes me more productive. On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 7:54 PM, David Magda wrote: > On Feb 23, 2010, at 17:11, Jason Antman wrote: > >> I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, >> but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital >> into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. > > Book learning gets you going, but you need to practice. For a start, switch > the primary desktop (either at work and/or at home) to Debian and start > using it. Nothing learns you like having to use something day after day. > > At $WORK I have a corporate laptop for Outlook and the enterprise ticketing > system, but have a Linux desktop for all my "real work": Solaris and Linux. > I have one screen connected to the Linux machine, and use a single keyboard > & mouse, and use Synergy to move focus between the two systems: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy%2B > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy_(software) > >> I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be >> picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training classes (at >> least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux administration, and even fewer >> for someone who's going to be entering a Debian environment. >> >> Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or >> online? > > > $WORK has a deal with Global Knowledge: I did an intro ITIL course that was > pretty informative and from what others have said they've had pleasant > experiences with the classes as well. They have a few Red Hat-based courses > that will be occurring in NYC: > > http://www.globalknowledge.com/training/category.asp?catid=400 > > I'm guessing RH033 and 131 would be where to start (in that order probably). > It's not Debian, but "Unix is Unix" to a large extent. Debian is more of a > community, so you don't have a centralized mechanism for developing training > programs and such. > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From richard.dakin@ccci.org Wed Feb 24 07:54:33 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1OFsWFF073877 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:54:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from richard.dakin@ccci.org) Received: from mx0a-000cec01.pphosted.com (mx0a-000cec01.pphosted.com [67.231.144.127]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1OFsUrd000349 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:54:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0000157 [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000cec01.pphosted.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with SMTP id o1OFp1uw002204; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:54:28 -0500 Received: from hart-edge2.ccci.org ([72.159.180.78]) by mx0a-000cec01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id m4y0pfmja-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:54:28 -0500 Received: from HART-E013V.net.ccci.org (10.10.11.4) by HART-EDGE2.ccci.org (172.16.1.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.393.1; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:54:26 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:53:04 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? Thread-Index: Acq01cKUeQ7RFNhyS3GU6RtDjmESUQAkLprQ References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> From: Richard Dakin To: Jason Antman , SAGE Members X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2010-02-24_10:2010-02-06, 2010-02-24, 2010-02-24 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1002240099 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1OFsWFF073877 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:54:33 -0000 "rapidly convert financial capital into experience" That comment made me chuckle. Closest I can come to a solution that meets that unrealistic criteria is send someone to training(test prep) bootcamp for 3 weeks in India. For less than $5k US your organization can get the right person RHCE cert. This includes airfare, food, and accommodations. Most of LAMP should be touched on. I am not sure about Debian. This link is an example and not an endorsement. http://www.netzoneindia.net -----Original Message----- From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Jason Antman Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:12 PM To: SAGE Members Subject: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? Yes, I know what you're all thinking from the subject, and I thought it too. I got an email from a colleague who is a long-time Windows admin and is currently managing a few admins and programmers. Though we didn't get into the details, I assume his department is mostly Windows. However, their web server farm (Debian-based boxes) is constantly growing, between more public-facing content and moving legacy apps to PHP-based web apps. They only have one Linux admin who's god on all of their web servers. Upper management has told him that he needs to get trained as a "LAMP Administrator", i.e. be ready to handle as much as he can if the linux admin is out or unavailable (or possibly gone??). I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training classes (at least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux administration, and even fewer for someone who's going to be entering a Debian environment. Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or online? Thanks, Jason Antman _______________________________________________ sage-members mailing list sage-members@mailman.sage.org http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From mike.diehn@gmail.com Wed Feb 24 08:24:19 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1OGOJuk074565 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:24:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike.diehn@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.144]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1OGOG90001523 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so740436qwf.22 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:24:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; bh=dWBj0bG8reGzbHeGyvpd7Oyt7go5L8jPiNYyI+kL6Bs=; b=ly8ocWq6cMIuROPplpVeojCy3maqCCfaJtRBSUI6TDXXxshnU5+4MvGoz1XJ8DdbTC 0VU5I9smX1gkvjDSxWF8WucQsaLYufwyjtOmScM1AJIv+w3x+pIRoTwMeJJrJRCzeu12 inIVKy0YH6q9WR5P8teirbWu4DM0ay4ZyYyAI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=Aav7g44xRwLd0Ht+1emChmHWrU+1Vl0tvUPLvXzprJklHT0Vy4c8yByCiTPipGLmk1 TjLuBTGBSZb6AGqVvYwz+QbFHqVAleJXil5QBy983mZTv1rVK8qFI0E5TiEKZxkjfSoA KbvLi97+kewKabITSgCZxQgDkaGSk6KAHazJs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mike.diehn@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.123.196 with SMTP id q4mr32233qar.117.1267028654307; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:24:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> From: Mike Diehn Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:23:54 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7db5d890c12e269a Message-ID: <2a03c5ff1002240823i4c21a774obcc63374966a80f6@mail.gmail.com> To: Richard Dakin X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:24:19 -0000 I award you First Prize in the creative thinking category. :-) On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:53 AM, Richard Dakin wrote: > "rapidly convert financial capital into experience" That comment made me > chuckle. > > Closest I can come to a solution that meets that unrealistic criteria is > send someone to training(test prep) bootcamp for 3 weeks in India. For > less than $5k US your organization can get the right person RHCE cert. > This includes airfare, food, and accommodations. Most of LAMP should be > touched on. I am not sure about Debian. > This link is an example and not an endorsement. > http://www.netzoneindia.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org > [mailto:sage-members-bounces@mailman.sage.org] On Behalf Of Jason Antman > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:12 PM > To: SAGE Members > Subject: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? > > Yes, I know what you're all thinking from the subject, and I thought it > too. > > I got an email from a colleague who is a long-time Windows admin and is > currently managing a few admins and programmers. Though we didn't get > into the details, I assume his department is mostly Windows. However, > their web server farm (Debian-based boxes) is constantly growing, > between more public-facing content and moving legacy apps to PHP-based > web apps. They only have one Linux admin who's god on all of their web > servers. Upper management has told him that he needs to get trained as a > "LAMP Administrator", i.e. be ready to handle as much as he can if the > linux admin is out or unavailable (or possibly gone??). > > I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, > but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital > into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. > > I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be > picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training classes > (at least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux administration, and even > fewer for someone who's going to be entering a Debian environment. > > Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or > online? > > Thanks, > Jason Antman > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- Mike Diehn Diehn Consulting, LLC mike.diehn@gmail.com From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Wed Feb 24 08:37:02 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1OGb2aL074901 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:37:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1OGax2t002024 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:37:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o1OGapHe018100 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:36:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B8555A3.3080703@bio.umass.edu> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:36:51 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Antman References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> In-Reply-To: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:36:58 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:37:03 -0000 Jason Antman wrote: > Yes, I know what you're all thinking from the subject, and I thought it > too. > > I got an email from a colleague who is a long-time Windows admin and is > currently managing a few admins and programmers. Though we didn't get > into the details, I assume his department is mostly Windows. However, > their web server farm (Debian-based boxes) is constantly growing, > between more public-facing content and moving legacy apps to PHP-based > web apps. They only have one Linux admin who's god on all of their web > servers. Upper management has told him that he needs to get trained as a > "LAMP Administrator", i.e. be ready to handle as much as he can if the > linux admin is out or unavailable (or possibly gone??). > > I already made the suggestion of getting a few books and a spare box, > but his superiors want to... ahem... rapidly convert financial capital > into experience ... i.e. they want something they can cut a check for. > > I tried my best to explain that the AMP part of LAMP can probably be > picked up as needed, but there don't seem to be many training classes > (at least in the NJ/NYC area) on general Linux administration, and even > fewer for someone who's going to be entering a Debian environment. > > Any suggestions for training, either classroom-based (NJ/NY area) or online? If they wanna blow da dough . . . http://www.learningtree.com/courses/144.htm When I had to learn Unix/Solaris years ago, my employer sent me to 6 courses over 2 years at Learning Tree. They are hands on 4-5 day courses starting with introduction to Unix and continuing with Unix server administration, Unix security, Unix tools, etc. Classroom full of computers, 2 people to a computer, dual boot Linux/Solaris, you choose. While it may not be Debian, they cover the history and relationship of the variants of Unix and talk about the differences. It gives a good foundation of knowledge that can be adapted and applied. Instructors are typically industry experts/consultants who teach at Learning Tree as one of their gigs. I had good experience with them. The class days are broken into multiple segments of lecture followed by exercise/assignments, and you can do a fair bit of guided exploration during those hands on phases, going at your own pace. It's the hands on that really cements it. You also come away with good reference materials. -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu Wed Feb 24 09:27:12 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1OHRBwa076293 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:27:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu) Received: from marlin.bio.umass.edu (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1OHR8gg003789 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:27:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from peredhil.bio.umass.edu (peredhil.bio.umass.edu [128.119.54.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by marlin.bio.umass.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o1OHR6du022508 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:27:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B85616A.2090503@bio.umass.edu> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:27:06 -0500 From: Chris Hoogendyk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Kern References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> <33E85541-B256-45BC-A9EC-4F8E321616D0@ee.ryerson.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (marlin.bio.umass.edu [128.119.55.19]); Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:27:07 -0500 (EST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 128.119.55.19 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:27:12 -0000 Joseph Kern wrote: >> For a start, switch the primary desktop (either at work and/or at home) to Debian and start using it. Nothing learns you like having to use something day after day. >> > > Same here: I admin in a 99% Windows environment. I have a netbook with > Windows 7 and a desktop running Arch Linux (or Ubuntu, whichever I > feel like). > > An unexpected benefit from running Linux on the desktop: I have access > to many security tools (like nmap) that are usually blocked at the > enterprise level proxy. In my case running linux as a windows admin > actually makes me more productive. That's funny. I spent some time as a Windows/Novell admin some years ago, and I had a Mac desktop. That made me more productive. ;-) -- --------------- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst --------------- Erdös 4 From jason@jasonantman.com Wed Feb 24 11:44:13 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1OJiDmd079655 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:44:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jason@jasonantman.com) Received: from mailmaster.jasonantman.com (web2.jasonantman.com [96.57.180.134]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1OJiA1e007287 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:44:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.43.136] (nat02-hill-ext.rutgers.edu [204.52.215.2]) by mailmaster.jasonantman.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A42F08D3D for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:35:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B858189.1030608@jasonantman.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:44:09 -0500 From: Jason Antman User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070801) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Mailing List References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> <1266971087.3557.126.camel@shamet> In-Reply-To: <1266971087.3557.126.camel@shamet> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 OpenPGP: url=http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x34EE2F92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 19:44:13 -0000 Thanks to all who have provided their input, I've passed it along to my colleague. I knew from the outset that most responses would take this form. And that was my first advice to him, as it's how I (and everyone I work with) learned. I'm under no delusion that sitting in a classroom is a replacement for actual experience. However, from as much as I know, the situation is this: 1) He works for a state higher educational institution. Obviously, there's a definite bias towards formal classes. 2) He doesn't work in an IT related department. He's the head IT guy for an academic department. Even more of a bias, and *much* less understanding of the value of self-teaching. 3) I don't know if they're having problems with their current Linux admin, or they think he might leave, or what, but it seems like they just want a continuity plan to keep the servers running, want some sort of CYA certificate or PO that says someone received the training, and don't have the budget to hire another admin (or my colleague doesn't want to suggest a consultant). -Jason Jon 'maddog' Hall wrote: > It is too bad the management can't understand "self study" > > ( "i.e. they want something they can cut a check for" ) > > The management probably would be unimpressed to know that I taught > myself how to program through a Western Electric correspondence course > in 1969 ("How to Program the IBM 1130 in FORTRAN"), or that I taught > myself how to program in assembly language through reading some DEC > "Pocketbooks" given to me by my DEC salesman. Or that I took a job > programming in IBM's BAL after only reading a book on it. > > (sigh) > > md > > From treed@copilotco.com Wed Feb 24 12:03:10 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1OK3Arb080035 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:03:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1OK37Xr007708 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:03:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id AD40964C6B; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:03:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: Tracy Reed Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:03:28 -0800 Resent-Message-ID: <20100224200328.GR22103@tracyreed.org> Resent-To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:59:38 -0800 From: Tracy Reed To: "Jack@coats.org" Message-ID: <20100224195938.GQ22103@tracyreed.org> References: <4B845297.8060106@jasonantman.com> <48555fa41002240633i27764dfcv36fad4eca861ea69@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xYeFQzU4VZLrHqxU" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48555fa41002240633i27764dfcv36fad4eca861ea69@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Crash course in Linux admin? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:03:11 -0000 --xYeFQzU4VZLrHqxU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 08:33:04AM -0600, Jack@coats.org spake thusly: > Find a good version of 'admin for dummies' or equivalent starter book, She has made it clear that she is more of a lecture/hands on learner than a book learner. I have never taken a single minute of formal Linux training, all self taught. I do read a lot of books. She sees me reading TPOSANA "just for fun" and wonders what the heck my problem is. > Get her to go with you to a few local unix/linux user group meetings and > find a mentor for her (i.e. not you!) that would agree to a few hands on > sessions, providing some direction. She has gone with me before. Too smelly. Oftentimes I agree with her. Our group is rather odd consisting of mostly retirees and 10 year Linux newbies. And then there is a small handful of professionals who are quite busy. My wife is just a person who needs structure to learn. Because of this I don't hold out too much hope for her ever becoming a guru or "hacker" but I don't want to eliminate the possibility for her to surprise me. She may just need the right introduction. > Just some thoughts that might help ... If you are up for a 'story', this > is what I did to try to get my new wife to understand why being a program= mer > was so important to me... Nice story. I can only hope to be so lucky! --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --xYeFQzU4VZLrHqxU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLhYUq9PIYKZYVAq0RAoLVAJ9WFu8lBusNfCdnOFV5XheNmW8j6wCeLl2a QjwKad5w/k4DcDxo16fsSxI= =A1W0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xYeFQzU4VZLrHqxU-- From joel.merrick@gmail.com Wed Feb 24 15:21:20 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1ONLKNu088000 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:21:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joel.merrick@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f220.google.com (mail-fx0-f220.google.com [209.85.220.220]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1ONLGxt011689 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:21:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm20 with SMTP id 20so5279563fxm.12 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:21:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=1p3S5cDUXRDdfFQeu+sJfSavFQAihH/ZHgL//qwqI7o=; b=DVGchEnljfdtVSPdH4UO8NFlx9tSsXus1xHkMZiKA9QY+9qyDsxX4phoBJNdak1v3A 2lIiNVDtNCEzof5tVoxzyg/J6Xr2jo4qwqsf0ODQPMGDt1aS0GUO1r4vQmd2cmt9x1Z0 8CsNnapcyEa14GDLboKe+RecaFg0kBTPFEcxE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=PAoEwznl1ey9gvcwGvfXSM8tVfF7wHLuOkWM+bzGqmdvTEpaItBoTbmWj2f1t2m45F 1XS2FKimvYXsZsXpWTo/gChVooTRv17vJ/x/KFhEucrgerxMAt7lm0ArU5EY/qr3M8kz /b+8BvyNM+ENyOGLX9pzGrHjc/U60QV0WdQGA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.187.209 with SMTP id m17mr42450hbh.148.1267053671141; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:21:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d6f61f21002161100x2f0c1f34g53142bd3597a7b2f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:21:11 +0000 Message-ID: <543a57a81002241521p4a1b858ch44f27a843cfd83db@mail.gmail.com> From: Joel Merrick To: Rus Foster Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Breakthrough stuff in the last few years X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:21:21 -0000 On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 7:00 PM, Rus Foster wrote: > Is there anything else it would be worth me experimenting with to get > myself back up to speed / other fun edgy things? > OpenQRM released some great documentation today. Worthwhile taking a look at.. http://www.openqrm-enterprise.com/news/details/article/in-depth-documentation-of-openqrm-available.html Joel -- $ echo "kpfmAdpoofdufevq/dp/vl" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1)-1)/ge' From sage@richfox.org Thu Feb 25 12:54:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1PKs8T7020880 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:54:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sage@richfox.org) Received: from foxengines.net (foxengines.net [69.5.8.162]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id o1PKs4td025498 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:54:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 11461 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2010 20:46:42 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; h=X-Originating-IP:Date:From:X-X-Sender:Reply-To:To:Subject:Message-ID:User-Agent:MIME-Version:Content-Type; s=default; d=richfox.org; b=Ivt7vjA2Qs1sV20XZxHVIZgiV6tdrLxbKJmfDZVsGqcFc1FK86KXMpjgc8NLntZzYYR+Y4zeiIVA0EvX4a1ryIEZQY20oESW8XHc/MleG5HmMv7HHL7802aOmtCxggcWfRW0vFTwYIRNvRfa/KkzquiYsrRBRDtkRgZOutyqFzY=; X-Originating-IP: [75.67.163.179] Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:46:41 -0500 (EST) From: sage@richfox.org X-X-Sender: rfox@powerbook.localdomain To: sage-members@sage.org Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 1.00 (OSX 882 2007-12-20) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: [SAGE] Opinions/Experiences on Overland for Tape Libraries? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: sage@richfox.org List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:54:09 -0000 Hi, I am considering acquiring an Overland NEO 2000e dual LTO4 library for backing up a 11 terabyte and growing filesystem and I'm kind of concerned that they come in so cheap. This might be a blessing if it's reliable and good because this is an academic budget. Does anyone have positive or negative experiences with this product and/or company? Thanks, Rich. -- From joseph.noonan@rigaku.com Thu Feb 25 14:17:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1PMHiS6023133 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:17:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.noonan@rigaku.com) Received: from smtp.msc.com (smtp.msc.com [12.96.21.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1PMHenN027010 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:17:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from pcjfn.msc.com (pcjfn.msc.com [192.246.38.111]) by smtp.msc.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o1PLsFQS081269 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:54:15 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from joseph.noonan@rigaku.com) Received: from pcjfn.msc.com (localhost.msc.com [127.0.0.1]) by pcjfn.msc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1PLsFZF034061 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:54:15 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from joseph.noonan@rigaku.com) Received: from localhost (jfn@localhost) by pcjfn.msc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id o1PLsFQT034058 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:54:15 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from joseph.noonan@rigaku.com) X-Authentication-Warning: pcjfn.msc.com: jfn owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:54:14 -0600 (CST) From: Joseph Noonan X-X-Sender: jfn@pcjfn.msc.com To: SAGE mailing list In-Reply-To: <1266032243.17393.23.camel@pbc.crawford.emu.id.au> Message-ID: <20100225154058.W47600@pcjfn.msc.com> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <257bbce41002121017h636d4703p57b4e666131ecd39@mail.gmail.com> <1266032243.17393.23.camel@pbc.crawford.emu.id.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: undef - relay 192.246.38.111 marked with SkipSpamScan X-CanIt-Geo: ip=192.246.38.111; country=US; region=TX; city=Spring; postalcode=77381; latitude=30.1766; longitude=-95.5101; metrocode=618; areacode=281; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=30.1766,-95.5101&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Canit-Stats-ID: Bayes signature not available X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 12.96.21.5 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:17:44 -0000 On Sat, 13 Feb 2010 at 2:37pm Frank Crawford wrote: > > IPv6 has been well designed from a network engineering perspective, Really, in what way has it been well designed? From all I can tell, it is a steaming pile of dung. Everything that might have once been new and innovative (e.g. IPsec), is already available in v4. What's left? Big addresses -- whee! Not exactly the eighth wonder of the world. I consider it a cardinal rule of engineering design that the new version be able to do *at least* the stuff the old version did and do it properly (not necessarily the same way, but properly). One big failure if IPv6 on this point is BGP/multihoming. Until this is fixed, it's not even worth considering for deployment in my world. -- Joseph F. Noonan > > Frank > ______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members >> > > -- > ac3 > Suite G16, Bay 7, Locomotive Workshop Phone: 02 9209 4600 > Australian Technology Park Fax: 02 9209 4611 > Eveleigh NSW 1430 > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From prvs=0672eb9da0=phil.pennock@globnix.org Thu Feb 25 15:07:30 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1PN7TRT024355 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:07:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from prvs=0672eb9da0=phil.pennock@globnix.org) Received: from mx.spodhuis.org (redoubt.spodhuis.org [94.142.241.89]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1PN7PFT028124 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:07:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=globnix.org; s=d200912; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=dLh+EYa6aVA1hRozOSsXDsXKGquhETYDJwzofp9IHV8=; b=uq3K07q67oqbaVlEnY0+en0uw/I4h6m41UTiTMLdeZTOvaXX5A62lz+3W37jdMe7a0PRNmOFgyuYulsZp7L756ql3CStjlXeBeiV4tD+ulJA9TtwpoYJdvepHdHEGQyePNNkLJStegIBiqkVjqBybOwWK84rZmhnXSqQr3wvJao=; Received: by smtp.spodhuis.org with local id 1Nkmnj-000KME-5p; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:07:23 +0000 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:07:23 -0800 From: Phil Pennock To: Joseph Noonan Message-ID: <20100225230723.GA77983@redoubt.spodhuis.org> Mail-Followup-To: Joseph Noonan , SAGE mailing list References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <257bbce41002121017h636d4703p57b4e666131ecd39@mail.gmail.com> <1266032243.17393.23.camel@pbc.crawford.emu.id.au> <20100225154058.W47600@pcjfn.msc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100225154058.W47600@pcjfn.msc.com> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:07:30 -0000 On 2010-02-25 at 15:54 -0600, Joseph Noonan wrote: > On Sat, 13 Feb 2010 at 2:37pm Frank Crawford wrote: > > IPv6 has been well designed from a network engineering perspective, > > > Really, in what way has it been well designed? From all I can tell, it > is a steaming pile of dung. Everything that might have once been new > and innovative (e.g. IPsec), is already available in v4. What's left? > Big addresses -- whee! Not exactly the eighth wonder of the world. To rephrase, you claim "It sucks, because we've already backported all the stuff we liked, therefore it is all a steaming pile of dung." ? > I consider it a cardinal rule of engineering design that the new version > be able to do *at least* the stuff the old version did and do it > properly (not necessarily the same way, but properly). One big failure > if IPv6 on this point is BGP/multihoming. Until this is fixed, it's not > even worth considering for deployment in my world. IPv6 has exactly the same level of support for multi-homing that IPv4 does. Pretty much none natively, some crude hacks with BGP possible. Same crude hacks work for both, but you hit the social barrier sooner in IPv6 because nobody has had enough clout to change things there yet, as things changed in IPv4. There's the ability to advertise a smallish route and use some wet finger in air guesstimates as to what will be large enough that the route will be accepted. This happened in IPv4, led to "use a /24 for multi-homing" and so made the address-space exhaustion problem worse, as people needing 3 addresses suddenly used a /24 as their bare minimum. In the early days, using a /24 didn't work so well as major carriers were unwilling to propagate such routes. These days, they've all pretty much conceded, albeit very grudgingly in some cases. IPv6 is merely at an earlier stage in the same process, but with more fear because of the vastly increased count of possible routes. The idea of having to carry arbitrary /48 advertisements scares people, just as carrying /24 from "swamp space" scared people. And with current router memories, those fears are currently justified, just as they were 12 years ago for IPv4. Various people are looking into finding some kind of alternative to avoid routing table explosion, but in the worst case you have the exact same proven technology to deal with it that IPv4 does. The problem is the same social problem that it was last time, getting the routes advertisements accepted. Ultimately, as soon as you want your routes out of more than one pipe, you need those routes to propagate. Either you move the single point of failure somewhere else, or every other system needs to be able to know of the two possible routes. Yet every other system speaks BGP already and anything which introduces a second sometimes-used routing table adds complexity, slow-paths and that way lies wasting much money. So, realistically you can: * advertise routes small enough (or inflate your address-space to be large enough) and grow the global routing table * accept a higher latency by having a third party announce address-space in a multi-homed manner, and that third party knows of more-specifics, via some kind of arrangement with your existing ISPs. Such third parties might end up present in all the major carrier hotels, to keep the added latency low, and they'd be responsible for sharing routes amongst their nodes to avoid single points of failure I'm skeptical that anything else will fly. So, when will IPv6 multi-homing become acceptable, with network operators *having* to spend? When customers can't reach their websites because the network operator doesn't have the routes and the websites and customers both complain, via press and lawyers. Anti-competitive filtering of routes which is prejudicially favouring large websites will not go down well. -Phil From joseph.noonan@rigaku.com Fri Feb 26 08:51:02 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QGp2cC050300 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 08:51:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.noonan@rigaku.com) Received: from smtp.msc.com (smtp.msc.com [12.96.21.5]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QGow2i000793 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 08:51:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from pcjfn.msc.com (pcjfn.msc.com [192.246.38.111]) by smtp.msc.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o1QGovV9066749 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:50:57 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from joseph.noonan@rigaku.com) Received: from pcjfn.msc.com (localhost.msc.com [127.0.0.1]) by pcjfn.msc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1QGovB5043008 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:50:57 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from joseph.noonan@rigaku.com) Received: from localhost (jfn@localhost) by pcjfn.msc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id o1QGouHA043005 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:50:57 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from joseph.noonan@rigaku.com) X-Authentication-Warning: pcjfn.msc.com: jfn owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:50:56 -0600 (CST) From: Joseph Noonan X-X-Sender: jfn@pcjfn.msc.com To: SAGE mailing list In-Reply-To: <20100225230723.GA77983@redoubt.spodhuis.org> Message-ID: <20100226093747.K47600@pcjfn.msc.com> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <257bbce41002121017h636d4703p57b4e666131ecd39@mail.gmail.com> <1266032243.17393.23.camel@pbc.crawford.emu.id.au> <20100225154058.W47600@pcjfn.msc.com> <20100225230723.GA77983@redoubt.spodhuis.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: undef - relay 192.246.38.111 marked with SkipSpamScan X-CanIt-Geo: ip=192.246.38.111; country=US; region=TX; city=Spring; postalcode=77381; latitude=30.1766; longitude=-95.5101; metrocode=618; areacode=281; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=30.1766,-95.5101&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Canit-Stats-ID: Bayes signature not available X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 12.96.21.5 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:51:02 -0000 On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 at 3:07pm Phil Pennock wrote: > On 2010-02-25 at 15:54 -0600, Joseph Noonan wrote: >> On Sat, 13 Feb 2010 at 2:37pm Frank Crawford wrote: >>> IPv6 has been well designed from a network engineering perspective, >> >> >> Really, in what way has it been well designed? From all I can tell, it >> is a steaming pile of dung. Everything that might have once been new >> and innovative (e.g. IPsec), is already available in v4. What's left? >> Big addresses -- whee! Not exactly the eighth wonder of the world. > > To rephrase, you claim "It sucks, because we've already backported all > the stuff we liked, therefore it is all a steaming pile of dung." ? No. I quoted one line of the OP's text, the line that made the claim that "IPv6 has been well designed from a network engineering perspective" and I asked for support for what I think is a silly assertion. In spite of the number of electrons spilled below, I still don't have any evidence for the above claim. Look, you can say that we should all hurry up and adopt IPv6 because IPv4 is running out and you have a defensible position. I may agree or not with it, but reasonable and knowledgeable people can disagree. But for all the time, naval gazing, and hand wringing that went into coming up with IPv6, it is a pretty pathetic leap forward (more like a staggering lurch) and to claim it "well engineered" should leave engineers everywhere giggling or indignant. Yes, I am aware that "social barriers" (address portability, minimum routable prefix size) are part of what I am complaining about, but those barriers are there because the protocol punts these decisions rather than engineers them. This is what I call a major failure of the protocol: the loc/ID split hasn't been made and so we are going to keep building bigger routers to accommodate bigger tables because multihoming isn't going away (and is not going to be limited to organizations that are going to assign addresses to 200 or more other orgs.) What year was CIDR addressing imposed to 'fix' the routing table size problem? Hmmm, and a complete rewrite of IP still left that fundamental problem unsolved. Well engineered indeed. So what do you think is so cool about v6? 128 bit addresses? That is truly the only thing I see driving it at all and that's a pretty tame "feature". v6 is a monument to missed opportunities to get things really right. -- Joseph F. 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(Stolen from http://mailformat.dan.info/trailers/disclaimers.html) From philiph@pobox.com Fri Feb 26 11:40:54 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QJesc7054433 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:40:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from philiph@pobox.com) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QJepU4006319 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:40:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.internal [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C635E2223 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:35:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from web5.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.214]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:35:35 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=message-id:from:to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:subject:date; s=smtpout; bh=6BegMccdV+2P1oRvdzxYX0hVp3M=; b=YLMdzkX3kjOcc+xVlBa4o86x3gO9y4bhXVOPGnNteyFh36ErUDB8D8uUfritqGgpZQe0x/qGKV0oqzj0O6f/UxOPyeUDMTyM3bhYTywWTt1L/Kio7leU8v4pUhtKODVZwyYiYMkHNBvIG+N5mqeIoSw4Yp+XWUfFAQ59y26Vy4A= Received: by web5.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 7D51F15989C; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:35:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1267212935.14827.1362096331@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: w/LVECo/KKXThNx8KA1dqLFnNranKN0ct6dupfIg/x4l 1267212935 From: "Philip J. Hollenback" To: "SAGE Members" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:35 -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: [SAGE] Review Board / Subversion integration? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:40:55 -0000 I'm starting to use Review Board (www.reviewboard.org) for code review. Seems good so far. However, I would really like to enforce code review before subversion checkin, for a subset of projects. In particular we keep some production config information in subversion, and I don't ever want anyone to change those files without enforced code review. I did some googling and didn't really find anything definitive. Does anyone on this list have any ideas for how to do this? Specifically, I'd like subversion checkins to fail unless an approved code review exists for the change, similar to how you can make checkins fail if an open bug isn't listed in the changelog. An automated method is desirable because I'm part of a large, geographically separated team, and it can be hard to ensure everyone is trained about the proper procedure. Thanks, P. -- Philip J. Hollenback philiph@pobox.com www.hollenback.net From john@stoffel.org Fri Feb 26 13:52:12 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QLqBjf058298 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:52:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@stoffel.org) Received: from mycroft.westnet.com (Mycroft.westnet.com [216.187.52.7]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QLq8Hc009100 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:52:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from jfsnew.stoffel.org (97-95-180-151.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com [97.95.180.151]) (authenticated bits=0) by mycroft.westnet.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1QLhRr5001775 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:43:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by jfsnew.stoffel.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 504855369C; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:43:27 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:43:27 -0500 From: "John Stoffel" To: sage-members@usenix.org X-Mailer: VM 8.0.9 under Emacs 22.3.1 (i486-pc-linux-gnu) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at mycroft X-Virus-Status: Clean X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:52:12 -0000 Hi Guys, We're looking around for anyone's methodology for testing the performance of VNC connection for both latency and performance. Most of my users don't care, but a vocal subset wants to NOT use VNC at all for remote work. So we're looking for ways to repeatably test a VNC connection for performance under various metrics, in an objective and repeatable way. We're an EDA shop, so tools for doing Layout drive the issue. Some thoughts I've had are: - x11perf, but it's Black & White only, and won't compile on Solaris 5.8 due to missing Xrender.h include file. I'm still poking at this, but I'm not hopeful. - Xmark, but it's just an x11perf summarizer, so it doesn't help much. - run the tcl/tk test suite, which pops up bunches of windows as I recall. - run the ImageMagick test suite, does the same thing, as I recall. - Try to take of our existing EDA tools and script it using some tool, either internal to the tool itself, or something like expect. We're currently using RealVNC 4.1.2/3 as our Xvnc servers on Solaris 5.8 and RHEL3/4/5 systems. I'm starting to look at deploying FreeNX as well. Some other options could be TurboVNC and TigerVNC as the server side software due to their supposedly better compression libraries. Thanks, John From doug@will.to Fri Feb 26 14:15:24 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QMFO9Q058974 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:15:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doug@will.to) Received: from will.to (mailman.will.to [68.164.136.125]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QMFKGI009456 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:15:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.52] (h-68-164-136-126.nycmny83.static.covad.net [68.164.136.126]) (authenticated bits=0) by will.to (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id o1QMFGPh025243 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:15:17 -0500 Message-ID: <4B8847FB.9030606@will.to> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:15:23 -0500 From: Doug Hughes User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Stoffel References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> In-Reply-To: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (will.to [68.164.136.125]); Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:15:18 -0500 (EST) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 22:15:24 -0000 John Stoffel wrote: > Hi Guys, > > We're looking around for anyone's methodology for testing the > performance of VNC connection for both latency and performance. > Most of my users don't care, but a vocal subset wants to NOT use VNC > at all for remote work. > > So we're looking for ways to repeatably test a VNC connection for > performance under various metrics, in an objective and repeatable way. > We're an EDA shop, so tools for doing Layout drive the issue. > > Some thoughts I've had are: > > - x11perf, but it's Black & White only, and won't compile on > Solaris 5.8 due to missing Xrender.h include file. I'm still > poking at this, but I'm not hopeful. > > - Xmark, but it's just an x11perf summarizer, so it doesn't help > much. > > - run the tcl/tk test suite, which pops up bunches of windows as > I recall. > > - run the ImageMagick test suite, does the same thing, as I recall. > > - Try to take of our existing EDA tools and script it using some > tool, either internal to the tool itself, or something like > expect. > > We're currently using RealVNC 4.1.2/3 as our Xvnc servers on Solaris > 5.8 and RHEL3/4/5 systems. I'm starting to look at deploying FreeNX > as well. Some other options could be TurboVNC and TigerVNC as the > server side software due to their supposedly better compression > libraries. > > Thanks, > John > > _______________________________________________ > So, this isn't a direct answer to your question, but you should REALLY look at TurboVNC. If you're doing CAD, I presume 3d is involved? including model rotation? If you have any sort of latency for this, TurboVNC is a big win. If you don't (you don't say), then perhaps not so much but some of the compression may still be of value. It trades off the slowness of VNC without 3d acceleration for 3d acceleration on a GL enabled server and 2d graphics compression while using more network bandwidth. We have people who find it usable for 3d molecular modeling over a 10msec link. It's orders of magnitude better than plain vnc, which is quite unusable for such tasks. From bwhitehd@gmail.com Fri Feb 26 14:36:44 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QMairh059590 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:36:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bwhitehd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com (mail-vw0-f41.google.com [209.85.212.41]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QMaetp009767 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:36:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws2 with SMTP id 2so220540vws.28 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:36:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=4+CN31OmTBtw+DVIOSK+LXaBJoJm9HU73LyjyRo2Zn0=; b=mIFa4FCY/5G2rkPztVETvgYyz26Z3YSTrZx6pqN+Os7JLiH08gG2odFMZkABB6VsF5 z0foFd+2c/hadrVXM53KdnwWBi2lA2YECytzG2OP95/8jWE9Kwtz0mY6tYYqsUWmNzeM HK7fUSrAJTzX0GIn0SKzOx1FCAMYLQ7EfShAQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=oIDR2DswfpTayJMZK4nIsKV9MNwkwYkptOoJAdTP4xITwGkJOYZY/muBDOI3N28u0Y lCokuii9Qc589a6KseH61X/adZcYwBHmEZzR6c25T+Bde4z32T1+vea6KpudNmQaLqDX 2QPmJqQ+bFQm2PhWOiZ1ABtEGzINxd7KU+x+8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.121.227 with SMTP id i35mr702661vcr.149.1267223795144; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:36:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> From: Brian Whitehead Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:36:15 -0600 Message-ID: To: John Stoffel X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=1% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 22:36:44 -0000 I was previously involved in a very large deployment and testing of VNC. We used RealVNC Enterprise and RealVNC Session Manager with a lot of custom code for checking and starting sessions across several hosts in a "farm". We had many users that preferred Linux, so they used VNC and the Solaris users used Citrix Presentation Server for UNIX 4.0. Each of these handles the graphics a little differently. (sending only changed bits vs. sending everything within a specific size transfer) We used a couple of things for testing latency and performance. One thing that worked very well was actually created by one of our EDA vendors. It's been over a year and I'm no longer with that company, so I'll need to go back and look at some old data. Essentially, the application was a script that the remote user would launch that would run a small video, time it and then prompt them to rate a few things. It would record how long it took to play the file, the user would rate whether it played smoothly or was choppy, etc.. The results were then recorded in a database. At any time, you could look at this data and determine if the data is consistent at a location. The video should take a specific amount of time, so if a different time is record, then there is an obvious latency. It's a little more complex than what I've explained, but that's the general idea. We saw several issues with different EDA applications (Cadence, Matlab, etc..). Most of the time they were on the Citrix side and we had to work with the vendors to get a fix. I hope this gives you an idea. If you need more information, let me know. It may take some time to dig it up again though. Regards, Brian On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:43 PM, John Stoffel wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > We're looking around for anyone's methodology for testing the > performance of VNC connection for both latency and performance. > Most of my users don't care, but a vocal subset wants to NOT use VNC > at all for remote work. > > So we're looking for ways to repeatably test a VNC connection for > performance under various metrics, in an objective and repeatable way. > We're an EDA shop, so tools for doing Layout drive the issue. > > Some thoughts I've had are: > > - x11perf, but it's Black & White only, and won't compile on > Solaris 5.8 due to missing Xrender.h include file. I'm still > poking at this, but I'm not hopeful. > > - Xmark, but it's just an x11perf summarizer, so it doesn't help > much. > > - run the tcl/tk test suite, which pops up bunches of windows as > I recall. > > - run the ImageMagick test suite, does the same thing, as I recall. > > - Try to take of our existing EDA tools and script it using some > tool, either internal to the tool itself, or something like > expect. > > We're currently using RealVNC 4.1.2/3 as our Xvnc servers on Solaris > 5.8 and RHEL3/4/5 systems. I'm starting to look at deploying FreeNX > as well. Some other options could be TurboVNC and TigerVNC as the > server side software due to their supposedly better compression > libraries. > > Thanks, > John > > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From cmc@math.hmc.edu Fri Feb 26 14:49:15 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QMnF0W059936 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:49:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmc@math.hmc.edu) Received: from esme.math.hmc.edu (esme.Math.HMC.Edu [134.173.34.194]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QMnCaQ010099 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:49:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from vosill.math.hmc.edu (vosill.math.hmc.edu [134.173.34.88]) by esme.math.hmc.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o1QMIdnt017295 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:18:39 -0800 Received: from vosill.math.hmc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vosill.math.hmc.edu (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o1QMId4l027504; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:18:39 -0800 From: "C.M. Connelly" Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Department of Mathematics To: "Philip J. Hollenback" In-reply-to: <1267212935.14827.1362096331@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1267212935.14827.1362096331@webmail.messagingengine.com> Comments: In-reply-to message from "Philip J. Hollenback" dated "Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:35 -0800." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3; GNU Emacs 22.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:18:39 -0800 Message-ID: <27503.1267222719@vosill.math.hmc.edu> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Review Board / Subversion integration? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: "C.M. Connelly" List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 22:49:15 -0000 --=-=-= "PJH" == Philip J Hollenback PJH> I did some googling and didn't really find anything PJH> definitive. Does anyone on this list have any ideas for PJH> how to do this? Specifically, I'd like subversion PJH> checkins to fail unless an approved code review exists PJH> for the change, similar to how you can make checkins fail PJH> if an open bug isn't listed in the changelog. Subversion supports hook scripts (which live in the hooks directory in the repository). If your process can be automated then you can use the hook scripts to allow or deny checkins. The basic set of scripts is start-commit.tmpl pre-commit.tmpl post-commit.tmpl pre-revprop-change.tmpl post-revprop-change.tmpl pre-lock.tmpl post-lock.tmpl pre-unlock.tmpl post-unlock.tmpl I'm not sure if you can add additional hooks, but what you're describing sounds like it might doable with the default set of hooks. See http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-11-2008/jw-11-checkstyle2.html?page=4 for an example of automated code review of Java code with a Subversion repo. Claire *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Claire Connelly cmc@math.hmc.edu System Administrator (909) 621-8754 Department of Mathematics Harvey Mudd College *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLiEi+B0pE8d7vd8wRAjBlAJ42yHoHawIdudsxhgZHlbk4gYfE7ACfQQMF aAhq3E3ydfL6Df8eioc2nsM= =0CcT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From allbery@ece.cmu.edu Fri Feb 26 15:00:24 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QN0OEm060215 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:00:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu (BACHE.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.129.23]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QN0L8H010316 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:00:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mress.kf8nh.com (static-72-77-17-40.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net [72.77.17.40]) (Authenticated sender: allbery@ECE.CMU.EDU) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 288C2B0; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:00:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <87CD701A-E75A-4DB1-932B-F789ABE5582B@ece.cmu.edu> From: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" To: "John Stoffel" In-Reply-To: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-66--992292242" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:00:00 -0500 References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.0 (v56) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:00:24 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-66--992292242 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Feb 26, 2010, at 16:43 , John Stoffel wrote: > - x11perf, but it's Black & White only, and won't compile on > Solaris 5.8 due to missing Xrender.h include file. I'm still > poking at this, but I'm not hopeful. > > - Xmark, but it's just an x11perf summarizer, so it doesn't help > much. > > - run the tcl/tk test suite, which pops up bunches of windows as > I recall. > > - run the ImageMagick test suite, does the same thing, as I > recall. > > - Try to take of our existing EDA tools and script it using some > tool, either internal to the tool itself, or something like > expect. None of these will capture the part that introduces most of the latency: the Xvnc-to-vncviewer connection, which works by transmitting deltas over a configurable (at server startup) time. I don't know of any performance tools which can interact across a vncviewer. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH --Apple-Mail-66--992292242 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkuIUoEACgkQIn7hlCsL25VCZwCgvkO6z2wnP2jg/tHoEfRGQZW8 MIgAn1h2Yr7vpHI1eRp1F24Fry+c0nJb =2UF0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-66--992292242-- From aardvark@saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com Fri Feb 26 15:13:25 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QNDOfv060650 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:13:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aardvark@saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com) Received: from smtp-relay2.uniserve.ca (smtp-relay2f.uniserve.ca [216.113.194.204]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QNDLXW010543 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [65.38.42.251] (helo=thornhill.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com) by smtp-relay2.uniserve.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nl9HF-0006oD-VX; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:07:22 -0800 Received: by thornhill.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5C4923A74A; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:07:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:07:21 -0800 From: Hugh Brown Sender: Hugh Brown To: sage@richfox.org Message-ID: <20100226230721.GP4307@thornhill.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="p/1JFEOz/hVXxMAZ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-Sender-Info: aardvark@saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com X-Scanner: OK. Scanned. X-Uniserve-Spam-Score: 0.1 1 (/) X-Uniserve-Spam-Report: Content analysis details: (0.1 points) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.1 RDNS_NONE Delivered to trusted network by a host with no rDNS X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Opinions/Experiences on Overland for Tape Libraries? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:13:25 -0000 --p/1JFEOz/hVXxMAZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline sage@richfox.org disturbed my sleep to write: > I am considering acquiring an Overland NEO 2000e dual LTO4 library for > backing up a 11 terabyte and growing filesystem and I'm kind of concerned > that they come in so cheap. This might be a blessing if it's reliable and > good because this is an academic budget. Does anyone have positive or > negative experiences with this product and/or company? I got an Overland library a few years/jobs ago -- can't remember the model number, but I believe it was an LTO2 with capacity for 11 or 12 tapes. I think I used it for about a year before changing jobs, but I had no problems with it during that time. Thanks, Hugh -- Hugh Brown http://saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com Because the plural of Anecdote is Myth. --p/1JFEOz/hVXxMAZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkuIVCkACgkQcljl8kcFycejnwCfRCPXcnp6/PfEtc0ytytspfDC S0YAn3jZ46P2R7fyk7ZmRVTYZNwmKNr0 =tsGk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --p/1JFEOz/hVXxMAZ-- From tal@whatexit.org Fri Feb 26 15:30:45 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QNUj4M061024 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:30:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-vw0-f48.google.com (mail-vw0-f48.google.com [209.85.212.48]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QNUg17010788 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws12 with SMTP id 12so242926vws.35 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:30:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.123.207 with SMTP id q15mr554465vcr.186.1267227033738; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:30:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100226230721.GP4307@thornhill.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com> References: <20100226230721.GP4307@thornhill.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:30:33 -0500 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91002261530s4795d312sc82b89d7e3c48d4a@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: Hugh Brown Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Opinions/Experiences on Overland for Tape Libraries? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:30:46 -0000 I bought 3 Overlands at my previous job and used them for about 6 months before I left. No problems at all. From looking at the web site, I think they were NEO 400S's. Tom -- http://EverythingSysadmin.com -- http://www.TomOnTime.com Computer and network administrators... Spread the word! LOPSA New Jersey Professional IT Community Conference New Brunswick, NJ, May 7-8, 2010 -- http://picconf.org From frank@crawford.emu.id.au Fri Feb 26 15:57:25 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1QNvPnj061729 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:57:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frank@crawford.emu.id.au) Received: from ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net (ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net [150.101.137.143]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1QNvLL8011658 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:57:24 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApsEAFPrh0s7p/2A/2dsb2JhbACcErs7hHkE Received: from ppp167-253-128.static.internode.on.net (HELO bits.crawford.emu.id.au) ([59.167.253.128]) by ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 27 Feb 2010 10:22:13 +1030 Received: from [203.16.204.7] (agc.crawford.emu.id.au [203.16.204.7]) by bits.crawford.emu.id.au (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1QNq65F004669; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:52:07 +1100 From: Frank Crawford To: Joseph Noonan In-Reply-To: <20100226093747.K47600@pcjfn.msc.com> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <257bbce41002121017h636d4703p57b4e666131ecd39@mail.gmail.com> <1266032243.17393.23.camel@pbc.crawford.emu.id.au> <20100225154058.W47600@pcjfn.msc.com> <20100225230723.GA77983@redoubt.spodhuis.org> <20100226093747.K47600@pcjfn.msc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:52:06 +1100 Message-ID: <1267228326.11201.14.camel@agc.crawford.emu.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.2 (2.28.2-1.fc12) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (bits.crawford.emu.id.au [203.16.204.1]); Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:52:07 +1100 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at bits.crawford.emu.id.au X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.0 (2010-01-18) on bits.crawford.emu.id.au X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=85% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:57:26 -0000 On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 10:50 -0600, Joseph Noonan wrote: > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 at 3:07pm Phil Pennock wrote: ... > No. I quoted one line of the OP's text, the line that made the claim > that "IPv6 has been well designed from a network engineering > perspective" and I asked for support for what I think is a silly > assertion. In spite of the number of electrons spilled below, I still > don't have any evidence for the above claim. Yes, and you took that line out of context. My full comment was: "IPv6 has been well designed from a network engineering perspective, but we are now moving into the area of deployment, system management (not network management) and use, and there are lots of gaps needing to be filled in. Expect to find lots of places that need some workarounds to be put in place." >From what I can see most aspects have been thought through and not just an accumulation of hacks and fixes over time. It includes features for extensions, optimisations for current router technologies, plans for distribution and auto configuration, etc, etc. Many of which were picked up from IPv4 or have been backported to IPv4. However, as I also said there are lots of gaps, and I fully agree that in any non-trivial implementation you will find some part that has not been thought through for your implementation. In fact, while I'm probably not as critical as you appear to be, I do agree there is still a lot to do to make IPv6 usable in the real world, as opposed to the trivial sample sites currently deployed. That does not mean that it won't work, and in fact, there are a lot of clever people now being pushed into doing just that. Regards Frank From frank@crawford.emu.id.au Fri Feb 26 16:19:47 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1R0Jl5w062266 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:19:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frank@crawford.emu.id.au) Received: from ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net (ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net [150.101.137.143]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1R0JhJm012003 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:19:46 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApsEAGDyh0s7p/2A/2dsb2JhbACcErtOhHkE Received: from ppp167-253-128.static.internode.on.net (HELO bits.crawford.emu.id.au) ([59.167.253.128]) by ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 27 Feb 2010 10:49:42 +1030 Received: from [203.16.204.7] (agc.crawford.emu.id.au [203.16.204.7]) by bits.crawford.emu.id.au (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1R0JOPN005793; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:19:24 +1100 From: Frank Crawford To: Joseph Noonan In-Reply-To: <1267228326.11201.14.camel@agc.crawford.emu.id.au> References: <4B715ED8.2060006@ryanczak.org> <20100209143348.GA27678@catbert.org> <57653.207.61.230.154.1265730964.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <257bbce41002121017h636d4703p57b4e666131ecd39@mail.gmail.com> <1266032243.17393.23.camel@pbc.crawford.emu.id.au> <20100225154058.W47600@pcjfn.msc.com> <20100225230723.GA77983@redoubt.spodhuis.org> <20100226093747.K47600@pcjfn.msc.com> <1267228326.11201.14.camel@agc.crawford.emu.id.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:19:24 +1100 Message-ID: <1267229964.11201.17.camel@agc.crawford.emu.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.2 (2.28.2-1.fc12) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (bits.crawford.emu.id.au [203.16.204.1]); Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:19:24 +1100 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at bits.crawford.emu.id.au X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.0 (2010-01-18) on bits.crawford.emu.id.au X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; bulk rep Body=many Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=85% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] IPv6 X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 00:19:48 -0000 On Sat, 2010-02-27 at 10:52 +1100, Frank Crawford wrote: > On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 10:50 -0600, Joseph Noonan wrote: > > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 at 3:07pm Phil Pennock wrote: Just to make it clear, my comments were directed at Joseph's comments, not Phil's. I was just a bit sloppy with my cutting. Regards Frank From dave@compata.com Fri Feb 26 19:24:45 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1R3Ojpj066484 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:24:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@compata.com) Received: from compata.com (compata.com [66.92.38.163]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1R3Ogcv015510 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:24:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from aopen.compata.com (aopen [192.168.44.9]) by compata.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o1R3Ogl1004422 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:24:42 -0800 Received: from localhost by aopen.compata.com (Linux 2.6) with ESMTP (8.14.1/8.14.1) id o1R3OfW8012310 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:24:41 -0800 Message-Id: <201002270324.o1R3OfW8012310@aopen.compata.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.2 01/07/2005 with nmh-1.1 To: sage-members@sage.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:35 PST." <1267212935.14827.1362096331@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1267212935.14827.1362096331@webmail.messagingengine.com> From: Dave Close X-message-flag: If MS Outlook let's me put up this note, think what else it allows incoming messages to do to your computer! X-Face: $?&5f7w4GjUJOb-[FmngebA}V`5Dv)QEdHg|d%mytVRm]'o}*{J6:PP%(LfN LmOcb#>"^wDF*|ZzuS??S*vLH[.miV( List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 03:24:46 -0000 "Philip J. Hollenback" wrote: >I'm starting to use Review Board (www.reviewboard.org) for code review. >Seems good so far. However, I would really like to enforce code review >before subversion checkin, for a subset of projects. In particular we >keep some production config information in subversion, and I don't ever >want anyone to change those files without enforced code review. On any project of consequence, the recommended technique is to checkin code often, long before its finished. The act of labeling a version is what needs to be controlled, not checkin. Without checkin, you are not protected against loss of interim results. -- Dave Close, Compata, Irvine CA "You ain't goin' nowhere, son." dave@compata.com, +1 714 434 7359 -- Grand Ole Opry manager to dhclose@alumni.caltech.edu Elvis Presley, 1954 From prvs=0674eb6f73=phil.pennock@globnix.org Fri Feb 26 19:59:22 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1R3xMbJ067374 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:59:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from prvs=0674eb6f73=phil.pennock@globnix.org) Received: from mx.spodhuis.org (redoubt.spodhuis.org [94.142.241.89]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1R3xIcd016118 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:59:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=globnix.org; s=d200912; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=x/Z/iQiU/JXZiagOtzh6alP0DWtr40hoLMr8aW3D2Tc=; b=yPjE1pUq3lH8fgA4oWKO4E+zU+1ecbi7m7ah3TfCGPXCTsNb+u80i22iLWSGkVX06Iz3sxiZ4VKaTA3naVsbqCXqA2hczhDt0r3iO04RqLNja8oPFHoAj1fKcfiaydjI0vskZ+mcvpgD7rWsIdEjqC2/+PM00DgR4Z5S0q+W7HY=; Received: by smtp.spodhuis.org with local id 1NlDpk-000MXk-LU; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 03:59:16 +0000 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:59:16 -0800 From: Phil Pennock To: sage-members@sage.org Message-ID: <20100227035916.GA86508@redoubt.spodhuis.org> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@sage.org References: <1267212935.14827.1362096331@webmail.messagingengine.com> <201002270324.o1R3OfW8012310@aopen.compata.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201002270324.o1R3OfW8012310@aopen.compata.com> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Review Board / Subversion integration? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 03:59:22 -0000 On 2010-02-26 at 19:24 -0800, Dave Close wrote: > "Philip J. Hollenback" wrote: > >I'm starting to use Review Board (www.reviewboard.org) for code review. > >Seems good so far. However, I would really like to enforce code review > >before subversion checkin, for a subset of projects. In particular we > >keep some production config information in subversion, and I don't ever > >want anyone to change those files without enforced code review. > > On any project of consequence, the recommended technique is to checkin > code often, long before its finished. The act of labeling a version is > what needs to be controlled, not checkin. Without checkin, you are not > protected against loss of interim results. There's two types of code review and you're talking at cross purposes. One type is to prepare the work to be reviewed as a major change but commit frequently, eg on a branch, then ask for a huge review before integrating to main or the like. It's a heavy burden on the reviewer, works if you're separated by timezones from any other participants and the numbers of real experts in an area is very low and you're after a "have I done anything glaringly stupid" review. If you just protect labelling the version, you then potentially have a huge amount of work to get the first label attempt to a point where it's stable, (ie, you branch at that point; if you don't branch, other people committing early will keep breaking the build -- so you're into branch for release, instead of devel on branch). The OP's model is more like that catching on in certain Bay Area / SF companies, where you're working on a codebase with many other developers, who are presumed to be able to give a quick turnaround, working to common style guides, etc, and it's considered rude to ask someone to review more than 2k lines of changes without some warning. You might create something skeletal and then keep working on it. Some developers treat code review as a rubber stamp, others actually read the code and look for problems. In theory, the amount of work to get a release branch cut into a releasable state is reduced. Also, if you declare owners for certain project areas and require an approval from each project area you touch, you keep from having someone changing an API in a base component go really wrong when changing all the calling sites. There, you'd typically go for review with someone locally to test the basics are all sound and then send out to all the teams affected and get a reviewer to hopefully just rubber-stamp. So you still check-in often, but you get approval on those changes. The benefit of a system like Review Board is that all the comments are collected together in one place, latecomers can see them, comments can be attached to particular changes on particular lines of code in particular revisions of the diff, etc. (My experience isn't with RB itself, but another somewhat similar system). As a sysadmin, changing production configs of something you're not intimately familiar with (and often even then) it's really useful to run the changes by a second admin for sanity checks. I've caught mistakes, and mistakes of mine have been caught, and by this model production outages have been avoided. If doing something particularly dangerous at the cmdline, you might ask for someone to lean over and look over what you wrote. This is similar, but for config changes. To the OP: do make sure that if you're including production configs that you include escape mechanisms, such as submitting for post-review. It's a social issue to establish that this should only be used for emergencies or true trivialities and keep people from abusing it. -Phil From seph@directionless.org Sat Feb 27 08:19:18 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RGJHea084071 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 08:19:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seph@directionless.org) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1RGJEA7010498 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 08:19:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.internal [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B929CE2893; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:19:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from heartbeat1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:19:13 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=smtpout; bh=31zvQcpkx/vuoJ95ysEGx+4Ts24=; b=X0eJoCymm5ZONxXyXORWFQGSmFfxYtzhuMG2HeMcrCTAj1LqBlE7f6ynfuveIRJ1WpoGKSzrCkC5G3ND1nQBJOmsEDiUHPMdkKyWMPDHsoV91NMca/d05QvBpLuafmeTnShbI2a6F5e6uAfiBbf5HarKG5x/8n15wBtuUesXVZU= X-Sasl-enc: muMSHJY5FtxNkiPcQ2ucYjlDYfjQn9TcIo/GwcWruFgl 1267287552 Received: from bastion.directionless.org (c-24-128-190-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.128.190.204]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7C17E49B889; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:19:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by bastion.directionless.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:19:12 -0500 From: seph To: "John Stoffel" References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:19:12 -0500 In-Reply-To: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> (John Stoffel's message of "Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:43:27 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110008 (No Gnus v0.8) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 16:19:19 -0000 "John Stoffel" writes: > We're looking around for anyone's methodology for testing the > performance of VNC connection for both latency and performance. > Most of my users don't care, but a vocal subset wants to NOT use VNC > at all for remote work. I wonder of Selenium could work here. Testing from the end user side of the world, on something like a web browser seems like it should be pretty reasonable. But I'm not sure if selenium has a performance component, or if it's mostly just correctness. Or for that matter, some gui testing framework around your actual tools. seph From kurt.buff@gmail.com Sat Feb 27 09:15:03 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RHF3Po085639 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:15:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f182.google.com (mail-qy0-f182.google.com [209.85.221.182]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1RHF0wm012016 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:15:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk12 with SMTP id 12so667725qyk.7 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:14:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=KRCdbb/+Wx79w/aUEaXl2I4GaCnFZmER3bWSPyB4Yks=; b=hKp4EMNNbx5yay3eKj6rlmMfLYn8I6q9hBI/UAcNcYGHykPO5q5SKniO6aZdzqeweg 5gNFKAGf6hcoXmlseKt8gVURS1K3VCMj4LqzTyLpNYV5r9e005FXNDVgfA7tmj0v8aGJ j35vqrifXFh7nggDedo65guoqznrnnvYqqNiE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=XCFI47MWxO5EXZxyqlKlOD8sJr4+mg9p4ErXWn6BP5ir+rdZmNPYE7S+jSGQopd79y G/QsL3WGsPnPWse2I8kveyModUPoi/9nQPUi55fmc5ljbQiEll/UuENXgy4P//8Dh+w/ 7hkYb1ZBPS8t6UmbIumnX9PSyPokPwNDmKLKY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.66.220 with SMTP id o28mr1108917qai.284.1267289593819; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 08:53:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 08:53:13 -0800 Message-ID: From: Kurt Buff To: SAGE mailing list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Subject: [SAGE] Dups for pings? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:15:04 -0000 All, I was testing my own firewall, and pinging through it to the outside. Among other sites, I pinged a web site that belongs to a vendor with whom I have a good relationship, and got the following unexpected results. r2# ping www.example.com PING example.com (64.xxx.yyy.zzz): 56 data bytes 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=93.510 ms 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=93.514 ms (DUP!) 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=106.696 ms (DUP!) 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=93.328 ms 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=93.332 ms (DUP!) 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=93.334 ms (DUP!) 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=93.158 ms 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=93.162 ms (DUP!) 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=93.271 ms (DUP!) 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=96.490 ms 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=96.494 ms (DUP!) 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=96.496 ms (DUP!) 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=93.088 ms 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=93.092 ms (DUP!) 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=93.563 ms (DUP!) ^C --- example.com ping statistics --- 6 packets transmitted, 5 packets received, +10 duplicates, 16.7% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 93.088/94.835/106.696/3.415 ms So, being the helpful fellow that I am, I notified them of this, and got back this answer: "This is nothing to worry about it has been this way for years. For load balancing we use Windows Network Load Balancing. Each server in the cluster has a Main IP address and a virtually bound IP address. When the cluster IP address is ping'd a ping response is sent out for both assigned IP address's." Huh? Is this really expected and "good" behavior? I won't delve into my disappointment that my Windows box doesn't show the dups - this set of pings and responses is from my FreeBSD workstation. Anyone have thoughts on this? I've not worked NLB, or clusters, so don't have a base of experience to draw from. Kurt From cat@reptiles.org Sat Feb 27 09:17:45 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RHHjsq085663 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:17:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cat@reptiles.org) Received: from mailbox.reptiles.org (rootgecko.reptiles.org@[198.96.210.227]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1RHHg9Z012105 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:17:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from skink.reptiles.org ([198.96.210.227] port=62604) by mailbox.reptiles.org([198.96.210.227] port=25) via TCP with esmtp (1653 bytes) (sender: ) (ident using UNIX) id for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:17:39 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.121 2005-Nov-17 #4 built 2006-Nov-28) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:17:37 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Kurt Buff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20100227121702.A14569@gecko.reptiles.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dups for pings? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:17:46 -0000 On Sat, 27 Feb 2010, Kurt Buff wrote: > So, being the helpful fellow that I am, I notified them of this, and > got back this answer: > > "This is nothing to worry about it has been this way for years. > For load balancing we use Windows Network Load Balancing. > Each server in the cluster has a Main IP address and a virtually > bound IP address. When the cluster IP address is ping'd a > ping response is sent out for both assigned IP address's." > > Huh? Is this really expected and "good" behavior? It's expected behaviour -- I'm not going to comment about whether it's actually "good" behaviour... cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From unix_fan@yahoo.com Sat Feb 27 09:24:01 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RHO1Lv085821 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:24:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from unix_fan@yahoo.com) Received: from web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com (web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.36.202]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id o1RHNwD2012277 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:24:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15203 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Feb 2010 17:17:12 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1267291032; bh=VwpYW6jZTL6bdNhwtfOFNudxWb1hDddhZtuUpElz6QA=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=rQuWqX+UN9UDUt5IGdwbsHFK5PBI1af6p7BL6iLt2HoKPCesvYrINKRVnVEN+YCm+Xxb2slkZl8MA0Q75RVD7vdAaAarxH7GfURzAfZo50a3r5yDpTNh5Bi9EVeiQhK9CgdUB89sAbtkBGg3JTqQdCYscohwwhkULDkCW0Juzk4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=zcY6niTJDwruTXG6mDC+TatIpyPXDW07qAXIXxQIZ6ipcVI7Xrek2pDAwYkAqbkL1tXeWzSvsxlEJ6vkUkmHEtR+sgyzpnl9+WZzuwlCSMUisBPV7FQ89sNHnUAUNBGc4BIQ+qPb1B6iAiRtmACbCY8bHoz9GlFS1cudgVFTWj0=; Message-ID: <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: acgOrsMVM1m4C8RaUPkWfpmbuXup8RPh4EC8JrdK0IIY_3CyV8oGA8Fc7Pp6j_jaHF5hN_4fKKo.0AB9WnnNTi34iUzYCf3GRe3x_xTbyMVaX4qYqvSfecPgzBpLVL9IZZGTNtNnznXvKd9297..B.xzJthspSHWPdpW4.wXGWtKgiKDiqF1mW2ILvVlhDoYnEMsYEhhbxWVBL08b2tZCiJIPzoEtq4F2U1iJ6Jram4uQ8CzwltoAlUkj61kQrcPr0xaTa9rG.b4sSqMFl0zVvZE_z57IHsk5kwuGnGvqZskHsmWs8YErJ5Eq5vA1QjQV4ME2gmi0VFp0qDzV2x_7BYfb6wLdX3yBD2Z.K3vjHFxioVFVbmEHP4R7rTX Received: from [71.254.187.73] by web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:17:12 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/300.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:17:12 -0800 (PST) From: unix_fan To: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=5% Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:24:02 -0000 ----- Original Message ---- > From: John Stoffel >[] > We're looking around for anyone's methodology for testing the > performance of VNC connection for both latency and performance. > Most of my users don't care, but a vocal subset wants to NOT use VNC > at all for remote work. > > So we're looking for ways to repeatably test a VNC connection for > performance under various metrics, in an objective and repeatable way. > We're an EDA shop, so tools for doing Layout drive the issue. Like Doug Hughes answer, this one is also not a direct answer but is relevant to your environment. 1. We're looking at expanded use of RGS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_Graphics_Software "distinguished by its proprietary compression algorithm which allows for real-time transmission of complex 3D images and video, which existing remote desktop protocols struggle with. This opens up the use of remote desktops and thin clients to graphics-intensive industries such as CAD" VNC causes heartburn for us because while we _can_ set it up securely by ssh and displaying to localhost, thus avoiding plaintext auth, in practice the extra steps seem inexplicably more difficult - and hence don't get done. 2. The Video driver matters in Cadence tools like IC, Assura, etc. We find the proprietary Nvidia driver packaged by HP performs significantly better than the distro supplied nv driver. Panning/zooming in Cadence IC layout will demonstrate the difference - no waiting. The HP supplied rpm also includes nvconfig, which will recompile the appropriate bits at bootup in case a new kernel is introduced. From bwhitehd@gmail.com Sat Feb 27 10:01:05 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RI15Af086638 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:01:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bwhitehd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com (mail-gy0-f169.google.com [209.85.160.169]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1RI11mM013575 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:01:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by gyf3 with SMTP id 3so296567gyf.28 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:00:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:references:message-id:from:to :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer :mime-version:subject:date:cc; bh=1LxxojoY/94MYI/oUeH1oDGzNkDbmOTrAKLlt8LFJPo=; b=M76SRA70c9pEcIMDvQf42pCCIjyEWdfIaKhnJIsSPck9K6zYFnfxtEj84H/WCU1ZGa o2ajLicOx+p/iytZzIytXlEO2VOGtNZDlHGEG7Y4vaRYpRqRU869Ch0qGveF1YHjA/Wh UYZiz84dSKIfnPjtBxw0gOxBK/ADOOb1l0wsU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=references:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:cc; b=DcoUooqX/lhIE61OyDSxvLk7qh/VhH45rDsAvEy8KUH6R0MKTEFXxsHGwobOFT+zrC MVXS2e7zGcnNuv2yrgrtIMbK8+UdOFaKZmVM7H4tRmqhqMyvr7n5mByKw+yg8SSrmFeF qwOWdiE/xf68IQNzeF8snmescBCZgrv5wIoF4= Received: by 10.151.29.10 with SMTP id g10mr120981ybj.129.1267293196482; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.111.218.226? ([166.205.11.185]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 7sm476560ywf.55.2010.02.27.09.53.14 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:53:16 -0800 (PST) References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-Id: From: Brian Whitehead To: unix_fan In-Reply-To: <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:53:01 -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 rep=9% Cc: "sage-members@usenix.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:01:06 -0000 One thing that we found important to improve performance with VNC are the compression and encoding settings on the client side. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 27, 2010, at 11:17 AM, unix_fan wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- >> From: John Stoffel >> [] >> We're looking around for anyone's methodology for testing the >> performance of VNC connection for both latency and performance. >> Most of my users don't care, but a vocal subset wants to NOT use VNC >> at all for remote work. >> >> So we're looking for ways to repeatably test a VNC connection for >> performance under various metrics, in an objective and repeatable >> way. >> We're an EDA shop, so tools for doing Layout drive the issue. > > Like Doug Hughes answer, this one is also not a direct answer but is > relevant to your environment. > > 1. We're looking at expanded use of RGS > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_Graphics_Software > "distinguished by its proprietary compression algorithm which allows > for > real-time transmission of complex 3D images and video, which existing > remote desktop protocols struggle with. This opens up the use of > remote > desktops and thin clients to graphics-intensive industries such as > CAD" > > VNC causes heartburn for us because while we _can_ set it up > securely by ssh and displaying to localhost, thus avoiding plaintext > auth, in practice the extra steps seem inexplicably more difficult - > and hence don't get done. > > 2. The Video driver matters in Cadence tools like IC, Assura, etc. > We find the proprietary Nvidia driver packaged by HP performs > significantly better than the distro supplied nv driver. Panning/ > zooming in Cadence IC layout will demonstrate the difference - no > waiting. The HP supplied rpm also includes nvconfig, which will > recompile the appropriate bits at bootup in case a new kernel is > introduced. > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From bwhitehd@gmail.com Sat Feb 27 10:10:34 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RIAYQj086811 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:10:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bwhitehd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw0-f177.google.com (mail-yw0-f177.google.com [209.85.211.177]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1RIAUik013808 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:10:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by ywh7 with SMTP id 7so645444ywh.26 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:10:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:references:message-id:from:to :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer :mime-version:subject:date:cc; bh=9Ho9E4Qq5kbq6EjRO9Jts6n9V5u7gYDBsl/Oa8qiQ8w=; b=o2FrLUtfAh2Ohn7QIDRGLVgWbtVtAJxW8ncOcMOQG/3BD+/UeTuICI1cdhRTofpbMf 4DoDblhz8gvCBSBqgz5Mut9lsNSoDQipX6YsqYyPWbBWX9Hvn0QMzJhnPLyrKc5ngj9x BA873ruIuhL+pd9EmCrnyX2iWMW9osNbYTVBw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=references:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:cc; b=dUGzy7AoCYv+eHJaV1UrkR2AMORkJw7oH3TvZh62TGXwiInnD+0RInnpzP6Qe2ObW4 pnwmNxz5uV8Rf5Tfax9mZ7OqJe3ldf9yYqDjvUORMKRV9vHu6VrhHFMs9hW5VA5m6Ltu 9FTas9EA/A1n0/LqgJVoFyMCP5anuSrxAA3Yk= Received: by 10.151.94.1 with SMTP id w1mr1646891ybl.64.1267292369998; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.111.218.226? ([166.205.11.185]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 9sm478452ywf.53.2010.02.27.09.39.26 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:39:29 -0800 (PST) References: Message-Id: From: Brian Whitehead To: Kurt Buff In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:39:16 -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=8% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dups for pings? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:10:34 -0000 No, this is not good or expected. Whether it works or causes a problem is irrelevant. This indicates that something is misconfigured and you are receiv Sent from my iPhone On Feb 27, 2010, at 10:53 AM, Kurt Buff wrote: > All, > > I was testing my own firewall, and pinging through it to the outside. > Among other sites, I pinged a web site that belongs to a vendor with > whom I have a good relationship, and got the following unexpected > results. > > r2# ping www.example.com > PING example.com (64.xxx.yyy.zzz): 56 data bytes > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=93.510 ms > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=93.514 > ms (DUP!) > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=106.696 > ms (DUP!) > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=93.328 ms > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=93.332 > ms (DUP!) > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=93.334 > ms (DUP!) > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=93.158 ms > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=93.162 > ms (DUP!) > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=93.271 > ms (DUP!) > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=96.490 ms > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=96.494 > ms (DUP!) > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=96.496 > ms (DUP!) > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=93.088 ms > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=93.092 > ms (DUP!) > 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=93.563 > ms (DUP!) > ^C > --- example.com ping statistics --- > 6 packets transmitted, 5 packets received, +10 duplicates, > 16.7% packet loss > round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 93.088/94.835/106.696/3.415 ms > > So, being the helpful fellow that I am, I notified them of this, and > got back this answer: > > "This is nothing to worry about it has been this way for years. > For load balancing we use Windows Network Load Balancing. > Each server in the cluster has a Main IP address and a virtually > bound IP address. When the cluster IP address is ping'd a > ping response is sent out for both assigned IP address's." > > Huh? Is this really expected and "good" behavior? > > I won't delve into my disappointment that my Windows box doesn't show > the dups - this set of pings and responses is from my FreeBSD > workstation. > > Anyone have thoughts on this? I've not worked NLB, or clusters, so > don't have a base of experience to draw from. > > Kurt > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From bwhitehd@gmail.com Sat Feb 27 10:11:19 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RIBJAM086849 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:11:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bwhitehd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gy0-f176.google.com (mail-gy0-f176.google.com [209.85.160.176]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1RIBFRa013836 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:11:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by gyb13 with SMTP id 13so533957gyb.35 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:11:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:references:message-id:from:to :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer :mime-version:subject:date:cc; bh=gKCdJH3KONtEIg6xsj6SfREbWcBbmpDzuUheikoMLZw=; b=b2EUu77tUkI7zsiN5Zkhnhx7sXSOdPv/V6X9JaW1sU5Ve/Blra3V1LMeENPMPtO1Ki VGEu73BBp6RKBHmL60xjnU6kAeHrIzFO0zqphHF1PzXniZFFCuFf9ZRekPmf0FxybqYm 3OJraz8RVOcs6CWh5QtnWUPjSp4NCdLeDiJ1o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=references:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:cc; b=WagJ9HUk+fkcWW48jNS+HAuBxeNX4t4SfKQE3Ck5dxHBEIPS4vfo/SRNBzqBlP3WUr GogFV6tbuS/700Opm8kITV4TZfqaZe1Az3mPZToXKX+vl86WT7UliYbT6xsvcxwdJmBW e7SBM70oBAw+XlinI7N9wmU6vbCFofkAwAb5w= Received: by 10.150.118.24 with SMTP id q24mr3039161ybc.119.1267292563639; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:42:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.111.218.226? ([166.205.11.185]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 4sm476247ywi.51.2010.02.27.09.42.40 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:42:43 -0800 (PST) References: Message-Id: From: Brian Whitehead To: Brian Whitehead In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:42:30 -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dups for pings? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:11:19 -0000 Sorry, somehow hit a wrong key. You are receiving a response from or your system knows multiple hosts with the same address. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 27, 2010, at 11:39 AM, Brian Whitehead wrote: > No, this is not good or expected. Whether it works or causes a > problem is irrelevant. This indicates that something is > misconfigured and you are receiv > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 27, 2010, at 10:53 AM, Kurt Buff wrote: > >> All, >> >> I was testing my own firewall, and pinging through it to the outside. >> Among other sites, I pinged a web site that belongs to a vendor with >> whom I have a good relationship, and got the following unexpected >> results. >> >> r2# ping www.example.com >> PING example.com (64.xxx.yyy.zzz): 56 data bytes >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=93.510 ms >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=93.514 >> ms (DUP!) >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=106.696 >> ms (DUP!) >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=93.328 ms >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=93.332 >> ms (DUP!) >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=93.334 >> ms (DUP!) >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=93.158 ms >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=93.162 >> ms (DUP!) >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=93.271 >> ms (DUP!) >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=96.490 ms >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=96.494 >> ms (DUP!) >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=96.496 >> ms (DUP!) >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=93.088 ms >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=93.092 >> ms (DUP!) >> 64 bytes from 64.xxx.yyy.zzz: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=93.563 >> ms (DUP!) >> ^C >> --- example.com ping statistics --- >> 6 packets transmitted, 5 packets received, +10 duplicates, >> 16.7% packet loss >> round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 93.088/94.835/106.696/3.415 ms >> >> So, being the helpful fellow that I am, I notified them of this, and >> got back this answer: >> >> "This is nothing to worry about it has been this way for years. >> For load balancing we use Windows Network Load Balancing. >> Each server in the cluster has a Main IP address and a virtually >> bound IP address. When the cluster IP address is ping'd a >> ping response is sent out for both assigned IP address's." >> >> Huh? Is this really expected and "good" behavior? >> >> I won't delve into my disappointment that my Windows box doesn't show >> the dups - this set of pings and responses is from my FreeBSD >> workstation. >> >> Anyone have thoughts on this? I've not worked NLB, or clusters, so >> don't have a base of experience to draw from. >> >> Kurt >> _______________________________________________ >> sage-members mailing list >> sage-members@mailman.sage.org >> http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members From rnelson@ronspace.org Sat Feb 27 10:15:08 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RIF8hY086966 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:15:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rnelson@ronspace.org) Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com (mail-gy0-f169.google.com [209.85.160.169]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1RIF5ZI013970 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by gyf3 with SMTP id 3so299579gyf.28 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:14:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.91.19.17 with SMTP id w17mr1855912agi.54.1267294499630; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:14:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:14:59 -0600 Message-ID: From: Ron Nelson To: Brian Whitehead Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Cc: "sage-members@usenix.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:15:08 -0000 This probably doesn't apply to the OP's issue, but for my VNC use (lots of x-terms on a box on the other side of the VPN link) ssh session compression works very well. For this use, RealVNC gave the best performance. Ron On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Brian Whitehead wrote: > > One thing that we found important to improve performance with VNC are the compression and encoding settings on the client side. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> ----- Original Message ---- >>> >>> From: John Stoffel >>> [] >>> We're looking around for anyone's methodology for testing the >>> performance of VNC connection for both latency and performance. >>> Most of my users don't care, but a vocal subset wants to NOT use VNC >>> at all for remote work. >>> >>> So we're looking for ways to repeatably test a VNC connection for >>> performance under various metrics, in an objective and repeatable way. >>> We're an EDA shop, so tools for doing Layout drive the issue. -- http://ronspace.org/ From kurt.buff@gmail.com Sat Feb 27 11:13:45 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RJDiQ9088409 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:13:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f182.google.com (mail-qy0-f182.google.com [209.85.221.182]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1RJDf0G015384 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:13:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk12 with SMTP id 12so701307qyk.7 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:13:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=i1LevH2tOITXYzy9COlqyg5OmNlyddEstQC9rFJGYoU=; b=EVVzotNED6guL42dTA6XdwLIddrADuZ2++JToUypA/wb0yd9EGNhQvf1Vynyf4HS4I IskqVied5sRbOAuuOEMO5+KN+iNcfSVZrK2VV47nWcETl4j4aTrqNwTCM/qEeUzUBP79 8PcVy4DDa6ijz1KtWITFVbVCxygo1BEhZqctI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=wMFXVSM6KyquTCAupx5V7cWk4g370cjBfYYcmgzlCQYijztqm5ft/2EQ2gqLscXxXI 3s/pW5c/gFZD6lmMVbfUsrI2o6DDLgBVioyyNsqMVpepZcCCMe5psvLbjYvqCU1D6AHF XeBcC/FcMCsCFpBbuBQEd+39IddvGy1S4XhFg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.57.1 with SMTP id a1mr1206890qah.111.1267298016212; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:13:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100227121702.A14569@gecko.reptiles.org> References: <20100227121702.A14569@gecko.reptiles.org> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:13:36 -0800 Message-ID: From: Kurt Buff To: SAGE mailing list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hoshi.usenix.org id o1RJDiQ9088409 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dups for pings? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:13:45 -0000 On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 09:17, Cat Okita wrote: > On Sat, 27 Feb 2010, Kurt Buff wrote: >> >> So, being the helpful fellow that I am, I notified them of this, and >> got back this answer: >> >>    "This is nothing to worry about it has been this way for years. >>    For load balancing we use Windows Network Load Balancing. >>    Each server in the cluster has a Main IP address and a virtually >>    bound IP address.  When the cluster IP address is ping'd a >>    ping response is sent out for both assigned IP address's." >> >> Huh? Is this really expected and "good" behavior? > > It's expected behaviour -- I'm not going to comment about whether it's > actually "good" behaviour... ewwwww... http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc738894%28WS.10%29.aspx "In multicast mode, Network Load Balancing can limit switch flooding by providing Internet Group Management Protocol (IGMP) support. Network Load Balancing does not control any incoming IP traffic other than TCP and UDP traffic for specified ports and IGMP traffic in multicast mode. It does not filter other IP protocols (for example, ICMP or ARP), except as described below. Be aware that you should expect to see duplicate responses from certain point-to-point TCP/IP applications (such as ping) when the cluster IP address is used. If required, these applications can use the dedicated IP address for each host to avoid this behavior." Kurt From tal@whatexit.org Sat Feb 27 12:19:26 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1RKJQoJ090163 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:19:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-vw0-f48.google.com (mail-vw0-f48.google.com [209.85.212.48]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1RKJMCg016734 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:19:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws12 with SMTP id 12so493180vws.35 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:19:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.126.197 with SMTP id d5mr1003414vcs.110.1267301957070; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:19:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 15:19:17 -0500 Message-ID: <7d49b3d91002271219k3413ddc5me2d9c7313fbd67b@mail.gmail.com> From: Tom Limoncelli To: SAGE X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=7% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Subject: [SAGE] LOPSA NJ PICC '10: Call for Submissions (DEADLINE SOON!) X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:19:27 -0000 Deadline is Monday! Submit, submit, submit! LOPSA NJ PICC is a regional conference for all system administrators! LOPSA New Jersey Professional IT Community Conference New Brunswick, NJ, May 7-8, 2010 -- http://picconf.org http://twitter.com/picconf http://picconf.org/facebook Call for ParticipationNew Jersey=92s LOPSA-NJ Professional IT Community Conference 2010 The organizers of the LOPSA-NJ Professional IT Community Conference (PICC) invite you to submit proposals for papers and talks to be presented at PICC =9110. PICC10 is a gathering of professionals from the diverse IT (computer and network administration) community in New Jersey to learn, share ideas, and network. The conference includes invited speakers and keynotes, training by top-notch experts that is relevant, useful, and recession-friendly; plus an =93unconference=94 track where attendees propose and host their own topics during the event. We expect attendance of 100 to 150 IT professionals from mid to large-sized companies and academia from New Jersey/New York/Pennsylvania. We go by many titles but everyone is invited: system administrators, network administrators, network engineers, Windows, Linux, Unix, DBAs, etc. Presentation Topics We strongly welcome topics on best practices, new developments in systems administration, and cutting edge techniques to better manage Linux, Unix, o= r Windows hosts and environments. Papers should be of a technical nature and speakers should assume that members of the audience have at least a few years experience in general IT, Linux/Unix, and/or Windows administration. The audience will primarily hail from medium-sized businesses and academic institutions in the New Jersey/New York/Pennsylvania area. Attendance is expected to be 100-150 participants. Topics may include (but are not limited to): - System Administration - Backups - Security - Troubleshooting - Buying Decisions - Virtualization - Cloud Computing - Enterprise Monitoring and Management - Identity Management - Web and Email Management - Spam and Virus Filtering - Network Filtering - Wiki - Clustering and High Availability - Log Management - VOIP - Ticketing Systems - Bootstrapping and Automated Installation - Configuration Management and Packaging Topics explicitly NOT requested: - Sales Presentations - Vendor Product Demonstrations - Proposals or Vaporware While this conference is in our first year, we ambitiously imagine presentations such as: - An author of an open-source package explains the project, the benefits and how it works. - A system administrator presents about a new technique, software system= , or device he or she created. - A senior system administrator describes the =91lessons learned=92 from converting from one email system to another. - Someone with recent experience in particular technology (cloud computing, backups, Windows 7, etc.) presents =9310 things I wish I knew before I started with [name of product]=93 - A Windows engineer describes how they manage their fleet of of desktops/laptops. Presentation Format We are actively seeking proposals for presentations at PICC=9210. We have openings for: - Papers: 5-10 page paper, published electronically to attendees at the conference, and publicly after the conference. Presentation at conferenc= e will be 30 minutes including Q&A. - Talks: 20 minute presentation + 10 minute Q&A. - Panels: 3-7 attendees, 30 minutes including Q&A. Submit your Presentation Everyone is invited to participate! Please submit the following information= : =93Paper=94 proposals: - Paper title - Author(s) contact info: Name, Title, Affiliation, email address, posta= l address - Please attach draft paper and/or slides in PDF form. If your proposal is accepted you will be required to present during the conference (20 minutes plus 10 minutes for Q&A). The final draft of the paper will need= to be submitted 2 weeks prior to the conference. - See =93Notes for all presentations and proposals=94 below for submissi= on email address and other info. =93Talk=94 proposals: - Presentation title - Presenter=92s Contact info: Name, title, affiliation, email address, postal address - Presentation summary: (3-6 paragraphs; or an outline; We=92re more lik= ely to accept a proposal that includes details about the contents, not a vag= ue description) - Presentation description: (1 paragraph, as would be printed in the program book) - Presenter=92s bio: (no more than 200 words) - Do you plan on submitting a paper or slides for publication to complement this talk? (please attach draft paper or slides in PDF form) - *Note:* If your talk is accepted, you will have the option of submitting a paper or slides to be published in the proceedings (on web = site and on the USB stick to be distributed to all attendees). The paper and/= or slides must be submitted at least 3 weeks prior to the conference. - See =93Notes for all presentations and proposals=94 below for submissi= on email address and other info. =93Panel Discussion=94 proposals: - We encourage attendees to create panels on topics of interest to the community. The submitter should be committed to facilitating the panel a= s well as finding 4-7 people to be on the panel. - Panel title - Facilitator Contact info: Name, Title, Affiliation, email address, postal address - Panel description: (1-3 paragraphs, as would be printed in the program book) - Facilitator bio: (no more than 200 words) - Name, affiliation, and (optional) short bio of panelists. - Would you like assistance finding additional panelists? (yes/no) - Note: While LOPSA-NJ will aid in finding additional panelists, much higher priority will be given to proposals that include a draft slate of confirmed panelists. - See =93Notes for all presentations and proposals=94 below for submissi= on email address and other info. Notes for all presentations and proposals: 1. All proposals should be sent to submissions@lopsanj.org 2. Submission deadline is 03-01-2010. Selections announced by 03-07-2010= . Sadly we can not accept all proposals. 3. Please note that in order to give a presentation or attend PICC =9110= , you must be registered for the conference. Presenting at the PICC =9110 = *does not* entitle you to discounted or free registration for the conference, nor priority with registration. 4. Third party submissions (i.e. proposals submitted on behalf of the presentor by a PR agency or marketing department) are strongly discourag= ed. Submissions and questions should be sent to:* submissions@lopsanj.org* Dates and Deadlines To encourage early submissions, priority (both for inclusion and scheduling= ) will be given to presentations submitted *before* the 1st of March. - 03-01-2010 =96 Deadline for submissions - 03-07-2010 =96 Final program confirmation - 05-07-2010 =96 Start of conference Contact and Questions Please see our website at http://www.lopsanj.org/events/picc10 for more information on PICC =9110 and presenting at this great event. If you have any questions, please feel free to email the organizers at:* submissions@lopsanj.org* From mike.diehn@gmail.com Sun Feb 28 08:22:18 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1SGMI5a019760 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:22:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike.diehn@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f171.google.com (mail-qy0-f171.google.com [209.85.221.171]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1SGME5f016821 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk1 with SMTP id 1so1036347qyk.0 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:22:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; bh=CjzHsnMmUFEkgUVT6leVHO6pyFr9NRDObmdNJxuAyrs=; b=uAJoULIOQ2f8AYo1zMFvyJknUfrZ7qU3c9g7VgL0/h07uy8OD+2uXP5Fi9lKZf8br6 D4Wxqb+vlpc702F1MMo2wcxX5bCP7Pg2+aNJD68fa4WYg2tfr9ZCca/KykcDOlWd6Fb+ QNBCihfZ0yOuAQST2K7cCjB3YEDE/ypTwRnT0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=CoZM+la88ciwOQMJ2CH5+WrjBGJ7p/Y7AV+gqWK0Z5XkDiy5SQIPtnuFWZ9lJTd45L sa1+2MfppywP9zY76UfOMY33BpMh+oStlkDtm2GufXZ4GZcJWZgv4WwN3fcT5Abn4cif bRb3hBJD68jg2yNcCU/cNFwHldRXvrym0XgYA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mike.diehn@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.72.163 with SMTP id m35mr1697872qaj.73.1267374129115; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:22:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> From: Mike Diehn Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:21:49 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4166ea856c565d34 Message-ID: <2a03c5ff1002280821q747ed408ncafce5548e045611@mail.gmail.com> To: Ron Nelson X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: "sage-members@usenix.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 16:22:18 -0000 You may also want to consider NoMachine (NX) and FreeNX. We're having good luck with them displaying ANSYS Workbench and Fluent - heavy duty CFD applications. We've used Xvnc for a long time for this purpose, mostly RealVNC and, in recent years, TurboVNC. In the last two years, we've been looking for better 3D performance and some of our staff have found NoMachine to be superior to any Xvnc they've used. And we IT staffers find it a *lot* easier to manage. Good luck, Mike On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Ron Nelson wrote: > This probably doesn't apply to the OP's issue, but for my VNC use > (lots of x-terms on a box on the other side of the VPN link) ssh > session compression works very well. For this use, RealVNC gave the > best performance. > > Ron > > On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Brian Whitehead > wrote: > > > > One thing that we found important to improve performance with VNC are the > compression and encoding settings on the client side. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >>> > >>> From: John Stoffel > >>> [] > >>> We're looking around for anyone's methodology for testing the > >>> performance of VNC connection for both latency and performance. > >>> Most of my users don't care, but a vocal subset wants to NOT use VNC > >>> at all for remote work. > >>> > >>> So we're looking for ways to repeatably test a VNC connection for > >>> performance under various metrics, in an objective and repeatable way. > >>> We're an EDA shop, so tools for doing Layout drive the issue. > > > > > -- > http://ronspace.org/ > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > -- Mike Diehn Diehn Consulting, LLC mike.diehn@gmail.com From treed@copilotco.com Sun Feb 28 13:54:13 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1SLsDDo027245 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:54:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1SLs9Je022803 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 9522B64C88; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:54:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:54:35 -0800 From: Tracy Reed To: John Stoffel Message-ID: <20100228215435.GP22103@tracyreed.org> References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nE/5a/j5SCML90Nq" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:54:14 -0000 --nE/5a/j5SCML90Nq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 04:43:27PM -0500, John Stoffel spake thusly: > We're currently using RealVNC 4.1.2/3 as our Xvnc servers on Solaris > 5.8 and RHEL3/4/5 systems. I'm starting to look at deploying FreeNX > as well. Some other options could be TurboVNC and TigerVNC as the > server side software due to their supposedly better compression > libraries. I would never consider using VNC for actual day to day work due to the latency issues. But my primary workstation is a FreeNX terminal and it is indistinguishible from a local X session as long as you don't try to play video. I recommend FreeNX in your situation. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --nE/5a/j5SCML90Nq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLiuYb9PIYKZYVAq0RAr4ZAKCVeCNk9hWRQcyIlzQw1nzvTVFTkACgiujX XhJaJ4lN0A4iTkUPKRb321M= =mAzZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nE/5a/j5SCML90Nq-- From treed@copilotco.com Sun Feb 28 14:01:51 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1SM1pRm027458 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:01:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treed@copilotco.com) Received: from mail.copilotco.com (mail.copilotco.com [216.105.40.123]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1SM1mfJ022952 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:01:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.copilotco.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 9965564C6B; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:02:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:02:14 -0800 From: Tracy Reed To: unix_fan Message-ID: <20100228220214.GQ22103@tracyreed.org> References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="u9wPhCK/rM6+CG+h" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 22:01:51 -0000 --u9wPhCK/rM6+CG+h Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 09:17:12AM -0800, unix_fan spake thusly: > VNC causes heartburn for us because while we _can_ set it up > securely by ssh and displaying to localhost, thus avoiding plaintext > auth, in practice the extra steps seem inexplicably more difficult - > and hence don't get done. I set this sort of thing up such that the only way to access the service is via ssh from localhost so there is no choice but to tunnel it over ssh. Set the user's ~/.ssh/config up such that the forward happens automatically to minimize the amount of work on their end. > The HP supplied rpm also includes nvconfig, which will recompile the > appropriate bits at bootup in case a new kernel is introduced. I'll have to check and see if the Fedora nvidia rpms I am using have something like that. Right now I am greatly annoyed every time I upgrade my kernel (which for Fedora feels like every other day) and X fails to start because I have to manually run the configurator thing which compiled a new version of the kernel module. --=20 Tracy Reed http://tracyreed.org --u9wPhCK/rM6+CG+h Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLiufm9PIYKZYVAq0RAn2SAJ0UaP8+KrPGsde+1R5lwKXiCAQWtgCdHmKM 6NKZyZQQC20yfSCTj2d8V9g= =3RXE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --u9wPhCK/rM6+CG+h-- From mvgfr1@gmail.com Sun Feb 28 14:16:27 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1SMGR9c027850 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:16:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mvgfr1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com (mail-gy0-f169.google.com [209.85.160.169]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1SMGON9023155 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:16:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by gyf3 with SMTP id 3so581781gyf.28 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:16:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=IpWZbgkCX4qa7TRzwMhJ2NikElgZRXuvGu/Mh0Td27s=; b=aWW6+YkZvxAXZLU/qX77FiRTP3DLpqUUzhGNpvJyqztzOrQfE3eNhyfr2cBhUse8pE f49c/HShYsxuc4lJsxRlsOuFAwV660LC6rn1zddxg5MMrQXZkuPDWWLgPIwG+Lrx3hz+ BOyzkpd7tD9rI+ibdHAHePyszsAdeM/o1WN7E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=cUjcrswoPH7fMm7MLyRLC3GBnPDicf/SquP8/TJNqPdXwYryDV0a8rVuiOWSwkpQCZ +EgVEUajqdK3FDJC5Vj3STvMNmlJOrlQ+5LV6Zx3j3fxo0GrTIBJQGWJLC9x2jnT5Ysa PMOhMqHti++qnC+JSJYtDE6SYzHPKe6LahkoM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.166.14 with SMTP id o14mr2247867ybe.219.1267395378901; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:16:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2a03c5ff1002280821q747ed408ncafce5548e045611@mail.gmail.com> References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> <190457.15128.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <2a03c5ff1002280821q747ed408ncafce5548e045611@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:16:18 -0500 Message-ID: <4c7b1781002281416r7af0aab9x736e3818bae75896@mail.gmail.com> From: Marc Farnum Rendino To: Mike Diehn X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=10% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: "sage-members@usenix.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 22:16:28 -0000 On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Mike Diehn wrote: > You may also want to consider NoMachine (NX) and FreeNX... I'm new to NoMachine NX (free) and haven't been able to fix a blank/black screen (on the controlling machine) after authentication. I've tried controlling from different systems, looking at the logs, searching the net and the NoMachine site, etc.; no luck - any recommendations of NX communities to consult or debugging tactics? Thanks, Marc From philiph@pobox.com Sun Feb 28 14:54:41 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1SMsfrA028747 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:54:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from philiph@pobox.com) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1SMscMZ023777 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:54:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.internal [10.202.2.41]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32105E28EE for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from web7.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.216]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:54:38 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=message-id:from:to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:references:subject:in-reply-to:date; s=smtpout; bh=OzClmtNSWoC9BCRDVS5IAtPRWiw=; b=gUJwdRGxEjZX0XiS0AXHrSf5RzWHZTAztKv0fGoHRAlSD13EU2JtosXNcitysK/37wSg2UtWs35D0XMoif8tu4OuxES/1doQdFL4EtNkzdD0NHBirx3yr2RYX4yXRLNY19/kH+IKuyUMFjLYp5FUIUQOeclD+yjkZoVW0CD87Mg= Received: by web7.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 07D3723099; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:54:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1267397677.27639.1362368419@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: hZQLJzGZPvfezzLFyZ8mSBum7MhPf0YQDpBW9IoH/JK2 1267397677 From: "Philip J. Hollenback" To: "SAGE Members" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface References: <1267212935.14827.1362096331@webmail.messagingengine.com> <201002270324.o1R3OfW8012310@aopen.compata.com> In-Reply-To: <201002270324.o1R3OfW8012310@aopen.compata.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:54:37 -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=6% Subject: Re: [SAGE] Review Board / Subversion integration? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 22:54:42 -0000 On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:24 -0800, "Dave Close" wrote: > "Philip J. Hollenback" wrote: > > >I'm starting to use Review Board (www.reviewboard.org) for code review. > >Seems good so far. However, I would really like to enforce code review > >before subversion checkin, for a subset of projects. In particular we > >keep some production config information in subversion, and I don't ever > >want anyone to change those files without enforced code review. > > On any project of consequence, the recommended technique is to checkin > code often, long before its finished. The act of labeling a version is > what needs to be controlled, not checkin. Without checkin, you are not > protected against loss of interim results. That's a valid point, but only relevant to code, not config files. The config files exist in a fairly static state in subversion, and there's not really a concept of iterative code changes in them. I would like to just programatically force code review of the config files before they are checked in. It seems possible to hack this together with subversion's pre-commit hooks, but of course I was hoping someone had already done that for me. :) Thanks everyone for your suggestions and pointers. -- Philip J. Hollenback philiph@pobox.com www.hollenback.net From kalt@taranis.org Sun Feb 28 17:56:59 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o211uxiu033104 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:56:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kalt@taranis.org) Received: from mail-bw0-f222.google.com (mail-bw0-f222.google.com [209.85.218.222]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o211utEr026638 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:56:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz22 with SMTP id 22so221691bwz.39 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:56:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.39.203 with SMTP id h11mr2561068bke.153.1267408304166; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:51:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Christophe Kalt Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:51:24 -0500 Message-ID: <7c3a19501002281751v264a6547pb8865d58d900c0db@mail.gmail.com> To: sage@richfox.org X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=9% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.11 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Opinions/Experiences on Overland for Tape Libraries? X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 01:57:00 -0000 Bought the 2000 library twice, always been happy with it and the service whenever we had a problem (which was with the drive, not the library itself). The thing to know is that renewing the warranty (after the 3 years) is typically more expensive than getting a new unit. Not necessarily an issue as a new unit will typically come with a set of newer generation drives. Christophe On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 15:46, wrote: > Hi, > > I am considering acquiring an Overland NEO 2000e dual LTO4 library for > backing up a 11 terabyte and growing filesystem and I'm kind of concerned > that they come in so cheap. This might be a blessing if it's reliable and > good because this is an academic budget. Does anyone have positive or > negative experiences with this product and/or company? > > Thanks, > Rich. > > -- > _______________________________________________ > sage-members mailing list > sage-members@mailman.sage.org > http://mailman.sage.org/mailman/listinfo/sage-members > From rskiadmin@chycoski.com Sun Feb 28 21:16:55 2010 Received: from usenix.org (voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) by hoshi.usenix.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o215GrKv037812 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:16:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rskiadmin@chycoski.com) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by usenix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o215Goaw000037 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:16:53 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-4.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEANfcikurRN+J/2dsb2JhbACbFnOiUpc7hHsEgxc X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,557,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="93772330" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Mar 2010 05:16:45 +0000 Received: from [10.19.54.148] (sjc-rac-8713.cisco.com [10.19.54.148]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o215Gjan003161; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 05:16:45 GMT Message-ID: <4B8B4DBD.10609@chycoski.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:16:45 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100216 Thunderbird/3.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tracy Reed References: <19336.16511.194569.883394@stoffel.org> <20100228215435.GP22103@tracyreed.org> In-Reply-To: <20100228215435.GP22103@tracyreed.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: voyager 1011; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=4% Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] VNC performance testing X-BeenThere: sage-members@mailman.sage.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: "To discuss any issues of interest to SAGE members." 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