From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 2 18:45:44 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k032jBAe012819 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 18:45:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k032jAAP012816 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 18:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mdev.river.com (yampa.river.com [206.168.112.68]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k032iWAd012794 for ; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 18:44:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (v13.river.com [206.168.117.188]) by mdev.river.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5588E23F48; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 19:44:23 -0700 (MST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 19:01:13 -0700 To: Jennifer Davis From: "Richard Johnson" Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security Tools.. Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 14:51 -0800 on 2005-12-30, Jennifer Davis wrote: > or what tool that you couldn't survive > without when it comes to security? I think these are crucial for any organization with more than a few systems. They're what I use, or want to use, both for daily maintenance/monitoring, and during incident response: sleuthkit http://www.sleuthkit.org/ filesystem analysis for investigation cfengine http://www.cfengine.org/ configuration management, AKA avoiding forgetting to patch some systems... osiris http://www.hostintegrity.com/ samhain http://la-samhna.de/samhain/ host integrity monitoring for detection/investigation syslog-ng http://www.balabit.com/products/syslog_ng/ snare http://www.intersectalliance.com/projects/SnareWindows/ sec http://kodu.neti.ee/~risto/sec/ and http://www.cs.umb.edu/~rouilj/sec/ central syslogging for detection/investigation [1] argus http://www.qosient.com/argus/ network flow logging for detection/investigation, AKA "who else talked to the bad guy, and for how many bytes?" snort http://www.snort.org/ intrusion detection, optional inline blocking ethereal http://www.ethereal.com/ network traffic analysis (-avoid- sniffing with ethereal itself, as it has frequent security holes in its protocol decoders) sguil http://sguil.sourceforge.net/ network security monitoring console Richard ------- [1] For more central logging tools and ideas, see http://www.loganalysis.org/ , the SAGE guide http://www.SAGE.ORG/pubs/12_logging/ , and Abe Singer's forthcoming O'Reilly book) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 3 01:19:44 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k039JfAe014304 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 01:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k039JeLE014303 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 01:19:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.kingfisherops.com (kingfisherops.com [64.62.190.29]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k039J3Ad014290 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 01:19:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.3] (r5bl224.chello.upc.cz [86.49.71.224]) by mail.kingfisherops.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D26D1582EC for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 04:18:50 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1BCEBD6E-D0B2-4E56-A1C8-09F06F731150@treyka.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: sage-members@sage.org From: Trey Darley Subject: [SAGE] What are you all doing about the WMF exploit? Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:18:40 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Have any of you deployed Guilfanov's patch? What do you think? Regards, --Trey + +----------------------------------------------------------------------- --++ Trey Darley - Prague email: trey@treyka.net landline: +001 / 404.455.1516 mobile: +420 / 776 58 30 47 aim: bolshoiuzhas ms messenger: trey@treyka.net yahoo messenger: trey@treyka.net skype: treyka web: http://www.treyka.net + +----------------------------------------------------------------------- --++ "Svensson," I say, "kindly remember this most banal of truisms: the most incredible comedies are written by life." "My life is more like a railway timetable." "Just wait till time intervenes. The alchemy of time transforms everything into comedy. Everything..." [J. Skvorecky, The Engineer of Human Souls] + +----------------------------------------------------------------------- --++ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 3 07:03:39 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k03F3bAe020846 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 07:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k03F3bnJ020845 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 07:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.math.ohio-state.edu (hermes.math.ohio-state.edu [140.254.92.31]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k03F3SAe020837 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 07:03:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [140.254.93.76] (ford.math.ohio-state.edu [140.254.93.76]) (authenticated bits=0) by hermes.math.ohio-state.edu (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k03F3Qfd017288 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:03:27 -0500 Message-ID: <43BA923E.5020909@math.ohio-state.edu> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 10:03:26 -0500 From: Jeff McCune User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Macintosh/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] What are you all doing about the WMF exploit? References: <1BCEBD6E-D0B2-4E56-A1C8-09F06F731150@treyka.net> In-Reply-To: <1BCEBD6E-D0B2-4E56-A1C8-09F06F731150@treyka.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OSU-Math-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-OSU-Math-MailScanner-From: mccune@math.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Trey Darley wrote: > Have any of you deployed Guilfanov's patch? What do you think? > > Regards, > --Trey > + > +----------------------------------------------------------------------- > --++ > Trey Darley - Prague > email: trey@treyka.net > landline: +001 / 404.455.1516 > mobile: +420 / 776 58 30 47 > aim: bolshoiuzhas > ms messenger: trey@treyka.net > yahoo messenger: trey@treyka.net > skype: treyka > web: http://www.treyka.net > + > +----------------------------------------------------------------------- > --++ > "Svensson," I say, "kindly remember this most banal of truisms: the > most incredible comedies are written by life." > "My life is more like a railway timetable." > "Just wait till time intervenes. The alchemy of time transforms > everything into comedy. Everything..." > [J. Skvorecky, The Engineer of Human Souls] > + > +----------------------------------------------------------------------- > --++ > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 3 10:36:27 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k03IaQAe027900 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k03IaQYM027897 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:36:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.mx.voyager.net (mail1.mx.voyager.net [216.93.66.204]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k03Ia4Ad027870 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from oemcomputer (d318.as2.clev.oh.core.com [216.214.14.211]) by mail1.mx.voyager.net (8.13.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id k03IZvB3074522; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:35:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000d01c61095$3e33ee00$d30ed6d8@oemcomputer> From: "Harvey Rothenberg" To: "Heather Mitchell" , Cc: References: <8A74AA76292A964E96C2C47FD2EE2CB00197AB77@Hermes.owen.edu> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security Tools.. Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:40:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk To All: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heather Mitchell" To: Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 7:13 PM Subject: RE: [SAGE] Security Tools.. > > Jennifer Davis wrote: > > > what tool that you couldn't survive without when it comes to security? > > Ethereal -- it's been very useful in a couple of attacks where the > miscreant was spoofing ip addresses but not MAC addresses. And the > output was easier than tcpdump for the PHB to understand, so we could > get a timely decision to take necessary but unprecedented action. > > Netstat -- underused, imho. An excellent tool for pinpointing naughty > services that shouldn't be listening, yet are (like when a novice dba > convinces a junior admin who should have known better to turn telnet > back on because he "didn't know how to use SSH"). > > The log parser of your choice -- I like swatch and MS Log Parser (it's a > Windows world). But I find that while snort may alert me to attempted > abnormal naughtiness, logs help me find "normal" naughtiness -- > acceptable behavior occurring in unacceptable parameters (wrong time, > wrong place, wrong person, etc.). Also, logs help me prove that > sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, despite the paranoid suspicions of > the boss, and sometimes me! > > Tripwire -- or some other config/change management tool. Some day > someone is going to do something naughty, intentionally or otherwise. > Unless I can be pretty confident that I know what was and was not > affected, due diligence will require me to format hard drives and start > all over. Who wants to have to do that? Do you know for sure that you > can rebuild that 15-year old VAX whose operating system came on 26 > diskettes? Do you even know where those diskettes are? Are you sure?? :) > > ProcExplorer and Pskill -- free tools from sysinternals.com for Windows. > Hands down the best tools for discovering what's really running, which > process owns what, etc. And pskill lets you kill the pesky services that > windows tells you can't be killed. :) > > > > If you have any tips, or best practices to share that would be useful > too. > > I don't know about best practices, but I do kinda have a tip. Security > is a big hairy umbrella for a lot wildly disparate things. It's also > full of fun tools. :) It helps me stay focused if I remember that I have > three main goals: 1) keep people out. That's firewalls, snort, > permissions, av, vulnerability testing, etc. 2) know when they get in > (they will get in). That's log watching, config/change management, > knowing processes, services, normal system behavior, etc. 3) recover. > That's figuring out what was compromised, returning to a known good > state, and remedying the exposed weakness. With those in mind, I find I > can keep from getting carried away by the "ooo, cool! It lets you see > peristalsis as it happens!" factor. > I agree with Heather's 2 cents, and I would like to add to this some books that address these programs. The one book, " Open Source Security Tools: Securing Your Unix or Windows Systems" by Tony Howlett from Prentice Hall ($ 49.99), I found will take you through these programs and more. It will explain HOW TO configure the program and to basically use the program. I found this approach helpful in being able to make these tools initially useful. At least it provide a way to get up and running for you to be able to venture for from there. > > Just my $.02, > Heather > > Heather Mitchell > Computer Systems Analyst > Owen Graduate School of Management > Vanderbilt University > Heather.Mitchell@owen.vanderbilt.edu > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sage-members@usenix.org > [mailto:owner-sage-members@usenix.org] On Behalf Of Jennifer Davis > Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 4:52 PM > To: sage-members@sage.org > Subject: [SAGE] Security Tools.. > > > OK .. BayLISA is organizing an event with regards to tools system > administrators can use towards security. nmap, snort, nessus... what > else is there? > > If you could go, what tool have you been wanting to learn more about and > haven't had the opportunity.. or what tool that you couldn't survive > without when it comes to security? > > network/systems.. anything. If you have any tips, or best practices to > share that would be useful too. > > Jim Dennis will be one of the moderator/presenters, so it should be > quite educational :) better yet.. we will be recording it! Sadly, I > don't think Google Video can handle 5 hours of material.. But! For the > cost of the DVD/Shipping we should be able to get a DVD out to you. > > Jennifer You may find these other books of some assistance: Linux System Security: An Administratior's Guide to Open Source Security Tools By Scott Mann from Prentice Hall ($ 49.99) SELinux: NSA's Open Source Security Enhanced Linux By Bill Mc Carty from O'Reilly ($ 39.95) [ From my exposure to Windows and Linux this distribution provides the Grandularity of control that AD still may not provide. Both are not easy to implement. Like anything worth while, it takes proper planning.] Security Survival: A Source Book from the Open Group By X, Open Guide from Prentice Hall ($ 60.00) Building Open Source Network Security Tools: Components and Techniques By Mike Schiffman from Wiley ($ 45.00) Hack Proofing Linux: A Guide to Open Source Security By James Stanger from Pub Group West ($ 49.95) I hope all find this information of assistance. Harvey Rothenberg Micro/Intel Unixes and Security Specialist From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 3 11:16:38 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k03JGbAe029844 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:16:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k03JGbDj029841 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:16:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtao01.charter.net (mtao01.charter.net [209.225.8.186]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k03JGNAd029712 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:16:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxip34-10.charter.net ([10.20.203.74]) by mtao01.charter.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with ESMTP id <20060103191231.XTMG21958.mtao01.charter.net@mxip34-10.charter.net> for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:12:31 -0500 Received: from 66-189-53-50.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com (HELO jfsnew) ([66.189.53.50]) by mxip34-10.charter.net with ESMTP; 03 Jan 2006 14:12:26 -0500 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAA+k= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17338.52374.833392.294634@smtp.charter.net> Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:12:22 -0500 From: "John Stoffel" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Cheap USB NTP Reference Clocks? X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.4.1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Anyone got a pointer to a cheap USB (or serial) NTP Reference clock? Someone mentioned one recently on LOPSA and/or SAGE, but I can't seem to find the reference anywhere... Needs to work with either Solaris or Linux servers. Thanks, John From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 3 11:16:39 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k03JGbAe029849 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:16:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k03JGb0l029843 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:16:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from gwyn.tux.org (ident-user@gwyn.tux.org [199.184.165.135]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k03JGFAe029707 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:16:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from gwyn.tux.org (ident-user@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by gwyn.tux.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k03JExxE021787; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:14:59 -0500 Received: (from jsdy@localhost) by gwyn.tux.org (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id k03JEwHg021769; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:14:58 -0500 Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:14:57 -0500 From: Joseph S D Yao To: Trey Darley Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] What are you all doing about the WMF exploit? Message-ID: <20060103141457.G15425@gwyn.tux.org> Mail-Followup-To: Trey Darley , sage-members@sage.org References: <1BCEBD6E-D0B2-4E56-A1C8-09F06F731150@treyka.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <1BCEBD6E-D0B2-4E56-A1C8-09F06F731150@treyka.net>; from trey@treyka.net on Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 10:18:40AM +0100 X-Accepted-File-Formats: ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.6 (gwyn.tux.org [0.0.0.0]); Tue, 03 Jan 2006 14:14:59 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.87.1, clamav-milter version 0.87 on gwyn.tux.org X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 10:18:40AM +0100, Trey Darley wrote: > Have any of you deployed Guilfanov's patch? What do you think? SANS seems to support it . Fortunately, where I am right now, others are delegated to clean up after MS Windows' messes. -- /*********************************************************************\ ** ** Joe Yao jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao ** \*********************************************************************/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 3 12:19:52 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k03KJpAe003009 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:19:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k03KJpuN003008 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:19:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.192]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k03KJZAd002982 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:19:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so2336802wri for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 12:19:34 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=dp45NuwD2O2+O8ztbuw8AfGtFhEcYVHmT9SQXLThUwhGtESP4K/vZ8XNsNYfUJDQeI3sUGfGvRpUQDp9lX2y6w6m94QICJdxly4q0+XNIlY6Due9j0G9R1VANDuqSA1K13xGT5/R3XtpmKeMX9y8dgE32eEv0ClUZYGyFyhSvE4= Received: by 10.65.218.9 with SMTP id v9mr592405qbq; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 12:19:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.213.9 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:19:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <887270740601031219x4b059e42pe0ccddb3c2dfd9d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:19:33 -0500 From: John Reddy To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] HTTP proxy w/ Virus protection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k03KJoAd003004 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I'm looking for advice on HTTP proxy servers for our user community. We have a squid installation running on Debian Linux, and currently use squidGuard for content filtering. The environment is several P4 Xeons serving a community of about 3000 users. My goal is to get Virus filtering and hostile java protection pushed to out to the proxies (in addition to desktop protections... there's never enough protection). Does anyone have a product or products they recommend (or simply point me in the direction of) that could work within that framework? I'm not opposed to swapping out software packages, but we've got the standard "nearly-nonexistent" budget. -John Reddy From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 3 12:46:24 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k03KkOAe004059 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:46:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k03KkNdg004058 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:46:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.ogov.org (208-42-230-196.unknown.data393.net [208.42.230.196] (may be forged)) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k03KkAAe004048 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:46:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.ogov.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ogov.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k03Kjv00020800; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:45:57 -0700 Received: from 204.124.92.254 (SquirrelMail authenticated user jfalgout); by www.ogov.net with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:45:57 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <54316.204.124.92.254.1136321157.squirrel@www.ogov.net> In-Reply-To: <887270740601031219x4b059e42pe0ccddb3c2dfd9d@mail.gmail.com> References: <887270740601031219x4b059e42pe0ccddb3c2dfd9d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:45:57 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] HTTP proxy w/ Virus protection From: "Jeff Falgout" To: "John Reddy" Cc: sage-members@sage.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a-11.EL3.centos.1 X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a-11.EL3.centos.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk John Reddy said: > I'm looking for advice on HTTP proxy servers for our user community. > We have a squid installation running on Debian Linux, and currently > use squidGuard for content filtering. The environment is several P4 > Xeons serving a community of about 3000 users. My goal is to get > Virus filtering and hostile java protection pushed to out to the > proxies (in addition to desktop protections... there's never enough > protection). > > Does anyone have a product or products they recommend (or simply point > me in the direction of) that could work within that framework? I'm > not opposed to swapping out software packages, but we've got the > standard "nearly-nonexistent" budget. > > -John Reddy > I've used DansGuardin [0] with the antivirus plugin [1] in front of a squid proxy to effectively scan http traffic at my previous employer. One dual Xeon with 4 GB memory running RHEL3, DansGuardian with the AV plugin (using the ClamAV libraries) and Squid handled a 10MB pipe with 3000 users just fine. Jeff [0]: http://dansguardian.org/ [1]: http://www.harvest.com.br/asp/afn/dg.nsf From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 3 13:11:33 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k03LBMAe005107 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:11:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k03LBLQa005104 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:11:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.85]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k03LAuAd005076 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:10:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from guyver.demon.co.uk ([62.49.6.63]) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1EttJd-0005rL-Ho for sage-members@sage.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 21:03:33 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.home [127.0.0.1]) by guyver.demon.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id E66721B1F13 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 21:10:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from guyver.demon.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (jabberwock.home [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18453-05 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 21:10:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [192.168.1.101]) by guyver.demon.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A1B31B1F12 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 21:10:49 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43BAE850.1020301@guyver.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 21:10:40 +0000 From: Martin Jackson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Wasabi Systems ISCSI Target Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0601-1, 03/01/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at guyver.demon.co.uk Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Has anyone had experience using the Wasabi Systems ISCSI target based appliances (or ISCSI appliances in general)? I thinking of using it as part of my consolidation project to produce a fault tolerant ISCSI SAN hooked up a VMWare ESX infrastructure, any help and advice would be very much appreciated -Martin Jackson From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 3 18:13:58 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k042DvAe014153 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 18:13:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k042DvsD014151 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 18:13:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from kirby.madstop.com (dsl017-124-007.bna1.dsl.speakeasy.net [69.17.124.7]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k042DkAd014140 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 18:13:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from culain.madstop.com (culain [192.168.0.3]) by kirby.madstop.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 637AD4354D for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:13:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from luke (helo=localhost) by culain.madstop.com with local-esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Ety9l-0002Uc-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 20:13:41 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:13:41 -0600 (CST) From: Luke Kanies To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] BayLISA Video galore.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, Jennifer Davis wrote: > > http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=BayLISA&btnG=Search+Video > > Slowly but surely these are making their way through the verification > process. Now you too can experience December SBCs, and the November > talks. > > Xen, Zimbra, Novell, Solaris, and Bob Camors/Jennifer Granick's > presentations are available. I did a short presentation there, too, and mine is available, also: http://reductivelabs.com/downloads/puppet/auug.pdf It's named oddly, because I reused slides from a previous presentation (I only had about an hour's notice). -- Yesterday upon the stair I met a man who wasn't there. He wasn't there again today -- I think he's from the CIA. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Luke Kanies | http://reductivelabs.com | http://madstop.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 3 19:56:48 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k043ulAe016375 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 19:56:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k043ukcX016374 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 19:56:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.anselmi.us (anselmi.us [67.41.199.133]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k043uaAe016345 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 19:56:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.211.33.199] (ident=dave) by falcon.anselmi.us with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1EtzjF-0004H8-Rb for sage-members@sage.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 20:54:25 -0700 Message-ID: <43BB46F0.8060509@anselmi.us> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 20:54:24 -0700 From: "David L. Anselmi" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20051007 Debian/1.7.12-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] What are you all doing about the WMF exploit? References: <1BCEBD6E-D0B2-4E56-A1C8-09F06F731150@treyka.net> <20060103141457.G15425@gwyn.tux.org> In-Reply-To: <20060103141457.G15425@gwyn.tux.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Joseph S D Yao wrote: > On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 10:18:40AM +0100, Trey Darley wrote: > >>Have any of you deployed Guilfanov's patch? What do you think? > > SANS seems to support it . Some of them seem to be on either side of the fence: http://www.sans.org/newsletters/newsbites/newsbites.php?vol=8&issue=1#200 Dave From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 3 21:17:34 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k045HXAe020539 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 21:17:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k045HWCK020538 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 21:17:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k045H3Ae020501 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 21:17:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k045GNba039735; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:16:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <17338.52374.833392.294634@smtp.charter.net> References: <17338.52374.833392.294634@smtp.charter.net> Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 22:59:46 -0600 To: "John Stoffel" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] Cheap USB NTP Reference Clocks? Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 2:12 PM -0500 2006-01-03, John Stoffel wrote: > Anyone got a pointer to a cheap USB (or serial) NTP Reference clock? > Someone mentioned one recently on LOPSA and/or SAGE, but I can't seem > to find the reference anywhere... The best place to ask questions like this is the newsgroup comp.protocols.time.ntp, which is also gatewayed to the mailing list questions@ntp.isc.org. In short, I believe that the Garmin GPS 18LVC is widely considered in the community to be a decent inexpensive consumer-grade GPS device that also handles time reasonably accurately. The previous hacker favourite used to be the Motorola Oncore 12+, but I believe that this product has been discontinued by Motorola and may have been sold to another company. If you're looking for something even less expensive, you can build a radio receiver for something like $40. We try to keep the NTP Public Services Project page at as up-to-date as we can. From our external links page at , you can find plans for building your own WWVB receiver at or a different take on the same concept at . You may also be interested in the NIST page of Time and Frequency Receivers at . > Needs to work with either Solaris or Linux servers. Solaris should be no problem. We have high level people at Sun who hack on the kernel to adapt it to the needs of good timekeeping, and they also hack on the NTP code to bring in new Solaris features to help improve our existing timekeeping capabilities. Linux may take some work to get to work well, especially if it's a more recent version (based on the 2.6 kernel). I'd encourage you to read the appropriate pages on the NTP Public Services Project as well as in the NTP FAQ. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 4 06:40:45 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k04EegAe005342 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 06:40:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k04Eegcd005339 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 06:40:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from surfer.rtfs.de (surfer.rtfs.de [213.239.205.143]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k04EeNAe005272 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 06:40:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from surfer.rtfs.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by surfer.rtfs.de (8.13.5/8.13.5/Debian-3) with ESMTP id k04EcK8J001647; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 15:38:20 +0100 Received: (from bb@localhost) by surfer.rtfs.de (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k04EcKK4001645; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 15:38:20 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: surfer.rtfs.de: bb set sender to smtp@rtfs.de using -f Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 15:38:20 +0100 From: Gabriel Krabbe To: Michael Neuffer Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] BayLISA Video galore.. Message-ID: <20060104143820.GW2301@surfer.rtfs.de> Mail-Followup-To: Michael Neuffer , sage-members@sage.org References: <20051230061630.GB7303@neuffer.info> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20051230061630.GB7303@neuffer.info> X-Spam-Status: No, hits = -3.308 required=3.5 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.53 on 213.239.205.143 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 07:16:30AM +0100, Michael Neuffer wrote: > Quoting Jennifer Davis (sigje@sigje.org): > > > > http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=BayLISA&btnG=Search+Video > > From Germany: > > Thanks for your interest in Google Video. > > Currently, the playback feature of Google Video isn't available > in your country. Apparently there are legal reasons for this, though I'm not sure which ones, nor do I know if/when they'll be resolved. Unfortunately, for the time being, the workaround appears to be to find and use a proxy in the US. Gabe -- A: Yes. >Q: Are you sure? >>A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>>Q: Why is top posting annoying in email? From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 4 07:07:51 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k04F7pAe006381 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:07:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k04F7oWk006380 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:07:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from cougar.nine.ch (cougar.nine.ch [217.150.245.14]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k04F7gAe006356 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:07:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 19779 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2006 15:07:40 -0000 Received: from icos-mac1.inf.ethz.ch (HELO ?129.132.12.241?) (frank@drosera.ch@129.132.12.241) by cougar.nine.ch with SMTP; 4 Jan 2006 15:07:40 -0000 Message-ID: <43BBE4B8.3000209@drosera.ch> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:07:36 +0100 From: Frank Thommen User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Macintosh/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: neuffer@neuffer.info CC: Gabriel Krabbe , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] BayLISA Video galore.. References: <20051230061630.GB7303@neuffer.info> <20060104143820.GW2301@surfer.rtfs.de> In-Reply-To: <20060104143820.GW2301@surfer.rtfs.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Gabriel Krabbe wrote: > On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 07:16:30AM +0100, Michael Neuffer wrote: > >>Quoting Jennifer Davis (sigje@sigje.org): >> >>>http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=BayLISA&btnG=Search+Video >> >>From Germany: >> >>Thanks for your interest in Google Video. >> >>Currently, the playback feature of Google Video isn't available >>in your country. > > > Apparently there are legal reasons for this, though I'm not sure which > ones, nor do I know if/when they'll be resolved. Unfortunately, for the > time being, the workaround appears to be to find and use a proxy in the > US. It works fine from Switzerland. So a proxy in Switzerland might do it, too. frank From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 4 11:02:03 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k04J23Ae014810 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:02:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k04J222L014808 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:02:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mdev.river.com (yampa.river.com [206.168.112.68]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k04J1wAd014803 for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:02:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (v13.river.com [206.168.117.188]) by mdev.river.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5D8823F45; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:01:56 -0700 (MST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1BCEBD6E-D0B2-4E56-A1C8-09F06F731150@treyka.net> References: <1BCEBD6E-D0B2-4E56-A1C8-09F06F731150@treyka.net> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:01:22 -0700 To: Trey Darley From: "Richard Johnson" Subject: Re: [SAGE] What are you all doing about the WMF exploit? Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 10:18 +0100 on 2006-01-03, Trey Darley wrote: > Have any of you deployed Guilfanov's patch? What do you think? Testing hasn't revealed any side effects. The MSI version appears to uninstall properly, as well. We've mandated the unofficial patch in the face of 1) ~6 hosts per day on a /16 falling to one or more of the hundreds of exploit versions out there, 2) anti-virus firms not keeping up with the morph rate, and 3) Microsoft not planning on releasing their official patch in a more timely manner. If the unofficial patch causes problems, it'll be with attention focused on it as the possible cause. The compromises, on the other hand, will generally be much harder to spot, let alone clean up short of a reinstall of every one of our MS Windows boxes [1]. The unofficial patch is thus a much smaller long-term risk, and (based on the testing) an easily tolerable immediate risk. Richard ------- [1] Yes, this may be necessary anyway due to all the myriad other spyware infestations out there, but... ;-) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 4 11:05:18 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k04J5HAe015015 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:05:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k04J5HuC015013 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:05:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k04J5FAe015005 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k04J5FmF015001 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:05:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from twobox.geeky.net (twobox.geeky.net [66.199.183.69]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k04I78Ae013319 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 10:07:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.geeky.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by twobox.geeky.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A28CB8BC00A for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:06:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from 129.188.33.221 (proxying for 10.32.5.17) (SquirrelMail authenticated user dcolquho) by mail.geeky.net with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:06:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <39086.129.188.33.221.1136397965.squirrel@mail.geeky.net> In-Reply-To: References: <17338.52374.833392.294634@smtp.charter.net> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:06:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] Cheap USB NTP Reference Clocks? From: djcolquh@alumni.uwaterloo.ca To: sage-members@usenix.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > ... The > previous hacker favourite used to be the Motorola Oncore 12+, but I > believe that this product has been discontinued by Motorola and may > have been sold to another company. As this was a MOT semiconductor device, it became a Freescale product. You can get a kit from here: http://www.synergy-gps.com/minimodule.html -- Dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 4 17:14:03 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k051E1Ae026031 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:14:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k051E1aL026030 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:14:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from lax-gate1.raytheon.com (lax-gate1.raytheon.com [199.46.200.230]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k051DnAd026014 for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:13:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmoutw00.directory.ray.com (dmoutw00.directory.ray.com [147.25.146.122]) by lax-gate1.raytheon.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k051DGFj014844; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:13:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmsmtpw00.directory.ray.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dmoutw00.directory.ray.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k051DG7G028900 sender obejas@exile.esn.us.ray.com; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 01:13:17 GMT Received: from exile.esn.us.ray.com (exile.esn.us.ray.com [147.17.205.19]) by dmsmtpw00.directory.ray.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k051DEMr014048 sender obejas@exile.esn.us.ray.com; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 01:13:14 GMT Received: from exile.esn.us.ray.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by exile.esn.us.ray.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id k051DD4c024979; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:13:13 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by exile.esn.us.ray.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id k051DDFW024977; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:13:13 -0800 From: Mario Obejas To: "Richard Johnson" , Trey Darley Subject: Re: [SAGE] What are you all doing about the WMF exploit? Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:13:13 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 Cc: sage-members@sage.org References: <1BCEBD6E-D0B2-4E56-A1C8-09F06F731150@treyka.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200601041713.13443.obejas@exile.esn.us.ray.com> Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wednesday 04 January 2006 11:01, Richard Johnson wrote: > At 10:18 +0100 on 2006-01-03, Trey Darley wrote: > > Have any of you deployed Guilfanov's patch? What do you think? > > Testing hasn't revealed any side effects. The MSI version appears to > uninstall properly, as well. > > We've mandated the unofficial patch in the face of 1) ~6 hosts per day > on a /16 falling to one or more of the hundreds of exploit versions out > there, 2) anti-virus firms not keeping up with the morph rate, and 3) > Microsoft not planning on releasing their official patch in a more > timely manner. Richard, I really appreciate your response. Did you mean 6 out of 16 hosts? I did not understand the /16. Also, can you elaborate on context, e.g., users of the compromised hosts, e.g., ISP customers? Engineers? Office workers? TIA From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 4 17:20:06 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k051K5Ae026336 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:20:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k051K5Hq026335 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:20:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org (mail.reptiles.org [198.96.119.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k051K1Ad026329 for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:20:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org([198.96.119.1] port=2898) (1842 bytes) by mail.reptiles.org([198.96.119.1] port=25) via TCP with esmtp (sender: ) id for ; (dest:remote)(R=bind_hosts)(T=inet_zone_bind_smtp) Wed, 4 Jan 2006 20:19:52 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.118 2004-May-31 #3 built 2004-Oct-14) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 20:19:52 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Mario Obejas cc: Richard Johnson , Trey Darley , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] What are you all doing about the WMF exploit? In-Reply-To: <200601041713.13443.obejas@exile.esn.us.ray.com> Message-ID: <20060104201648.B88366@skink.reptiles.org> References: <1BCEBD6E-D0B2-4E56-A1C8-09F06F731150@treyka.net> <200601041713.13443.obejas@exile.esn.us.ray.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Mario Obejas wrote: >> We've mandated the unofficial patch in the face of 1) ~6 hosts per day >> on a /16 falling to one or more of the hundreds of exploit versions out >> there, 2) anti-virus firms not keeping up with the morph rate, and 3) >> Microsoft not planning on releasing their official patch in a more >> timely manner. > > Richard, I really appreciate your response. > Did you mean 6 out of 16 hosts? I did not understand the /16. I presume he means the CIDR notation /16, which would be about 65,536 addresses. ... although 6 hosts out of 60,000 (roughly) doesn't seem to be that bad, all things considered. cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 4 17:36:07 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k051a6Ae027045 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k051a69X027044 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from slick.sigje.org (rdns.222.240.218.216.fre.communitycolo.net [216.218.240.222]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k051a2Ae027031 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from sigje (helo=localhost) by slick.sigje.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1EuK2s-0004Uo-Hw for sage-members@sage.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2006 17:36:02 -0800 Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:36:02 -0800 (PST) From: Jennifer Davis To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] BayLISA Tools of the Trade Seminar - Security Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Event: Tools of the Trade Seminar - Security Date: Feb 18, 2006 Time: 10am-5pm RSVP: (YOU MUST RSVP FOR THIS EVENT) http://www.mollyguard.com/event/23147234 Location: Yahoo Inc! 701 First Avenue Sunnyvale, CA This is the first in a series (if popular) of seminars to address specific applications, and resources that are useful to a system administrator. The day event will be tutorial style. You will learn how to use specific tools, and share tips/tricks with your peers. This event is free! You _must_ register in order to attend. We are still finalizing session topics (and are open to suggestions) but session topics may include nmap, nessus, snort, tripwire, ip filter, ethereal, netstat, tcpdump, ngrep, sleuthkit, syslog-ng, snare, sec, and/or argus. (many thanks from SAGE-ers who contributed to this thread. Even if you can't make the event, we can make the recording available through some mechanism.) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 5 04:14:53 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05CEqAe014111 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 04:14:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k05CEqWB014110 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 04:14:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [207.192.128.40]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05CEiAd014101 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 04:14:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [207.192.128.40]) by saltmine.radix.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id k05CEgZZ018101; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:14:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:14:42 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Maddox To: Jennifer Davis cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] BayLISA Tools of the Trade Seminar - Security In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Jennifer Davis wrote: > (many thanks from SAGE-ers who contributed to this thread. Even if you can't > make the event, we can make the recording available through some mechanism.) Please do! I'm on the wrong coast to attend (although the fambly and I would *love* to), but this sounds like it's going to be a great session! Inspires me to get my local non-affiliated-dot-sage chapter moving, off I go to organize... Andrew -- Andrew Maddox, madsox squiggle radix point net I will not carve gods From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 5 09:00:29 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05H0SAe020826 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k05H0Sfx020825 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.22]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05H0FAd020803 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:00:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.100] (zn.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.30]) by m1.imap-partners.net (MOS 3.7.1-GA) with ESMTP id AEF08159 (AUTH strata@imap-partners.net) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:00:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43BD509E.7020507@virtual.net> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 09:00:14 -0800 From: "Strata R. Chalup" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE mailing list Subject: [SAGE] the system administrator song Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7193470719293309352 (Thanks, Hal!) -- ======================================================================== Strata R Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net Virtual.Net Inc http://www.virtual.net/ ** Strategic IT for the Growing Enterprise ** ========================================================================= From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 5 10:16:55 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05IGqAe023391 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:16:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k05IGqBu023390 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:16:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.22]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05IGjAd023380 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.100] (zn.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.30]) by m1.imap-partners.net (MOS 3.7.1-GA) with ESMTP id AEF10165 (AUTH strata@imap-partners.net) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:16:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43BD628B.40203@virtual.net> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 10:16:43 -0800 From: "Strata R. Chalup" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE list Subject: [SAGE] LISA Conference alumni: Frappr group Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk http://www.frappr.com/lisaconferencealumni If you've ever attended a LISA conference, please add yourself! cheers, Strata -- ======================================================================== Strata R Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net Virtual.Net Inc http://www.virtual.net/ ** Strategic IT for the Growing Enterprise ** ========================================================================= From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 5 11:29:20 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05JTKAe026247 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:29:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k05JTJie026246 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:29:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from nproxy.gmail.com (nproxy.gmail.com [64.233.182.200]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05JTCAd026238 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by nproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id x4so1150339nfb for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:28:36 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=atCAA1VngGC5B8FpvueB2YEx/UOly2JQokkqTxEinJ3U61mDipduOZOaUUjeZrS6VegamkNzOgolrSWdAvH1otoVyPquO8FHZ8qHRAzIzaoJGta6qWA0OHhNfBA0o5HXOMd3gGFvVM+JM0GFlEmT3ySZR/69mCuTaxO1DHg0eNM= Received: by 10.48.163.10 with SMTP id l10mr711879nfe; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.48.14.5 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:28:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:28:35 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs_Couto?= To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Strategies for taking ownership of existing infrastructure? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k05JTIAd026242 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi. The subject line sound awful (and its my first post :-/). Basically I'm just asking for advice for the following situation: I'm now the primary sysadmin dealing with Unix systems, somewhere. As such, I've find myself inheriting the current infrastructure... what that means? It means I have to support process & applications I dont know about & didnt install, and are not documented... basically, things "work", by virtue of being more or less evolved and hammered till they do, but I dont have a clear picture of ... well anything, and the way thing works is very brittle. One machine uses one mail server, another uses other that is not listed anywhere, DNS is not coherent either, with each machine configured to use either a differen server or its own /etc/hosts files... same for proxies, same for... everything. List of things "wrong" here is enourmous, mainly in the "this thing doesnt scale and sure it is not easy to transfer admin to anybody that was not here where the working hacks where put in place". I guess people here have found themselves in the same situation... I'm trying to organize my ideas at all levels (technical, practices & procedures, organization, "office politics") about how to get to own the place. So any tip or advice you can come up with is welcome. Thanks in advance... I'll try to work on putting whatever suggestions you come up and my ideas in place... ------------------------------ Jesús Couto F. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 5 12:06:18 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05K6HAe027711 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:06:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k05K6Hf4027710 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:06:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from chat.adphila.org (mail.adphila.org [64.9.9.72]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05K6CAd027702 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:06:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw1.adphila.org (mail.adphila.org [172.19.2.123]) by chat.adphila.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1594E2779E for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:06:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from AOC-MTA by gw1.adphila.org with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:06:00 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.5 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:05:41 -0500 From: "John Boris" To: , Subject: [SAGE] Any suggestions for a good LINUX Administrators book Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Checker-Version: GEE Whiz 2.0 b1808 X-Spam-Score: 0.00/5.00 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I am looking for a good LINUX (Preferably Fedora) Administrators reference book. Most of the stuff I have been finding always points to the GUI interface (which I only have on one of my servers). These servers are on a Private network and not seen to the Internet. I have been searching on the net and have read the How-Tos but even they always point to the GUI tools. I am looking for a good reference that shows some command line references. I did come across one good How-To but I want to find a hard copy, preferably one that has a good index. Thanks in advance. P.S. Pardon the cross posting but with the SAGE<->LOPSA stuff going on I am not sure who is where now. John J. Boris, Sr. JEN-A-SyS Administrator "Remember! That light at the end of the tunnel Just might be the headlight of an oncoming train!" From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 5 12:09:43 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05K9gAe027931 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k05K9g8M027927 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:09:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from jotanicwcorpa.com (lnxint.curtisswright.com [64.132.102.108]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05K9YAe027917 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:09:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from OTTEXCH01.OTT.CW.LOCAL ([172.31.14.32]) by jotanicwcorpa.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05K9BU3027329; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:09:14 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [SAGE] Strategies for taking ownership of existing infrastructure? Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:09:21 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Strategies for taking ownership of existing infrastructure? Thread-Index: AcYSL4l5GXfxLMabTjiUBN33q1ZiYgAAnkCw From: "McKinlay, Ken" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs_Couto?= Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k05K9fAd027923 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sage-members@usenix.org > [mailto:owner-sage-members@usenix.org] On Behalf Of Jesús Couto > I'm now the primary sysadmin dealing with Unix systems, somewhere. As > such, I've find myself inheriting the current infrastructure... what > that means? > > It means I have to support process & applications I dont know about & > didnt install, and are not documented... basically, things "work", by > virtue of being more or less evolved and hammered till they do, but I > dont have a clear picture of ... well anything, and the way thing > works is very brittle. One machine uses one mail server, another uses > other that is not listed anywhere, DNS is not coherent either, with > each machine configured to use either a differen server or its own > /etc/hosts files... same for proxies, same for... everything. List of > things "wrong" here is enourmous, mainly in the "this thing doesnt > scale and sure it is not easy to transfer admin to anybody that was > not here where the working hacks where put in place". > > I guess people here have found themselves in the same situation... I'm > trying to organize my ideas at all levels (technical, practices & > procedures, organization, "office politics") about how to get to own > the place. So any tip or advice you can come up with is welcome. Jesús, I'm still in the same boat you are just getting into, and this is 5 years later! What I've found to help was to realize that you can't expect to know, document or fix everything. When first I inherited the UNIX environment I took a quick look around to determine what was critical, both in terms of knowing and of fixing. Everything else would have to wait unless it was earth shattering - not to the user but to the company. As for the knowing part, I set up an FAQ document for myself (and soon to be hired junior admin at that time) and as I discovered information, it was then documented right then and there. System details such as models, memory, disk usage were recorded and I installed Big Brother (which I was familar with at my previous employer) to start the monitoring so I knew when a problem cropped up. For the fixing part, it was looking for those items that have the greatest impact. Much like yourself, the communications infrastructure had "issues". Since some much revolves around DNS and mail, those there on my hit list for immediate fixing. Most importantly I keep my boss in the loop and let him know what priorities I had set on each item. Sometimes my priorities didn't match the company's and scheduling had to be adjusted. Also, keep a line open to the users so they know what is going on and what may break. Something that helped me personally was a couple of whiteboards. I had 3 categories of work - today, this week and projects. That way I and anyone else could see what was at least planned. I'm still dealing with issues since I've moved from UNIX administration as my primary focus to the network infrastructure and security. I'm still finding out about stuff done 6+ years ago that I'm surprised is still working. Ken McKinlay, GCIA, CISSP Network Security, Curtiss-Wright Controls, Embedded Computing ken.mckinlay@curtisswright.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 5 13:08:16 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05L8GAe003524 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:08:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k05L8FWr003523 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:08:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.utdallas.edu (smtp1.utdallas.edu [129.110.10.12]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05L8DAd003516 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:08:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.110.3.65] (mac59158.utdallas.edu [129.110.3.65]) by smtp1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12EFA388DD1 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:08:08 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <43BD8AB6.4060502@utdallas.edu> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:08:06 -0600 From: Amos User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Macintosh/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Sun IdM? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Just curious if any folks here have any experience with Sun's IdM tools, specifically: http://www.sun.com/software/javaenterprisesystem/identity_mgmt_suite/index.xml We've had some mechanisms in place for a number of years that comes pretty close to covering all of the issues of IdM, but concerns are being raised about the risks of such in-house enterprises. I'm also going to be doing some more digging into www.nmi-edit.org. (We're already using CAS and Shibboleth to some degree.) Amos From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 5 13:27:27 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05LRRAe004364 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:27:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k05LRQko004362 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:27:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05LRKAd004356 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:27:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from guyver.demon.co.uk ([62.49.6.63]) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1EucW1-0003l7-4k for sage-members@sage.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 21:19:21 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.home [127.0.0.1]) by guyver.demon.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 133541B1F13 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 21:27:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from guyver.demon.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (jabberwock.home [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01879-06 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 21:27:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [192.168.1.101]) by guyver.demon.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20A5D1B1F12 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 21:27:08 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43BD8F28.8030405@guyver.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 21:27:04 +0000 From: Martin Jackson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Strategies for taking ownership of existing infrastructure? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0601-2, 05/01/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at guyver.demon.co.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k05LRPAd004357 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Jesús, I'd suggest 3 books: The Practice of System and Network Administration, ISBN:0201702711 Blueprints for High Availability, ISBN 0471430269 Automating Unix and Linux Administration, ISBN 1590592123 and one website http://www.infrastructures.org When I took control of the infrastructure at my current workplace, the last sysadmin had walked out, there was minimal documentation (i.e. the passwords) and not much else, and the was network problems like you would not believe, at the time I used the www.infrastructures.org checklist and it got me up and running I started a webpage about what I was doing a few ago but never finished it (http://www.guyver.demon.co.uk/projects/WideScaleLinuxDeployment.html) your welcome to look at it but its wildly out of date now and a lot has changed. I've read the above 3 books and wish I had those as well at the time but I review them continually over and over again because there are some serious nuggets of information that can be found in later reads. The best thing I suggest is auditting what you've got at the moment and trying to find the dependencies between them and work on a template for dragging the systems into some sort of standard or imposing a new infrastructure template using new equipment and transition all services to that if possible. Good luck -Martin Jackson Jesús Couto wrote: >Hi. > >The subject line sound awful (and its my first post :-/). Basically >I'm just asking for advice for the following situation: > >I'm now the primary sysadmin dealing with Unix systems, somewhere. As >such, I've find myself inheriting the current infrastructure... what >that means? > >It means I have to support process & applications I dont know about & >didnt install, and are not documented... basically, things "work", by >virtue of being more or less evolved and hammered till they do, but I >dont have a clear picture of ... well anything, and the way thing >works is very brittle. One machine uses one mail server, another uses >other that is not listed anywhere, DNS is not coherent either, with >each machine configured to use either a differen server or its own >/etc/hosts files... same for proxies, same for... everything. List of >things "wrong" here is enourmous, mainly in the "this thing doesnt >scale and sure it is not easy to transfer admin to anybody that was >not here where the working hacks where put in place". > >I guess people here have found themselves in the same situation... I'm >trying to organize my ideas at all levels (technical, practices & >procedures, organization, "office politics") about how to get to own >the place. So any tip or advice you can come up with is welcome. > >Thanks in advance... I'll try to work on putting whatever suggestions >you come up and my ideas in place... > > >------------------------------ > >Jesús Couto F. > > > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 5 13:49:03 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05Ln2Ae005109 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:49:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k05Ln2i3005105 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:49:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from snow.icecube.wisc.edu (snow.icecube.wisc.edu [128.104.255.120]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05LmmAd005090 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.223.165] (unknown [172.16.223.165]) by snow.icecube.wisc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CB9C13C5E5; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:48:42 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <43BD9434.4090401@chem.wisc.edu> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:48:36 -0600 From: Steve Barnet User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs_Couto?= Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Strategies for taking ownership of existing infrastructure? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Jesús Couto wrote: > Hi. > > The subject line sound awful (and its my first post :-/). Basically > I'm just asking for advice for the following situation: Welcome to the jungle. :-) [...] > I guess people here have found themselves in the same situation... I'm > trying to organize my ideas at all levels (technical, practices & > procedures, organization, "office politics") about how to get to own > the place. So any tip or advice you can come up with is welcome. In the past I've found it helpful to do a couple things: 1) Start work on a simple network map. It should cover physical and logical components. You might need a couple of documents to cleanly represent the information. 2) Make a plan. Make your "this is messed up" list, and then make a "how it should be" list. The plan is the how you get yourself from "messed up" to "how it should be." It doesn't have to be fancy, but it should be a list of projects broken down into steps you can cross off as you go along. Doing this helps keep you on course, and gives you a way to keep track of what you've accomplished. You can organize the plan in whatever way makes sense to you. I've found the following to work well for me (in rough order of system impact): Physical Find and label everything - if you can't find it, you can't fix it. Environment issues (power, cooling, noise, physical access, etc) Cabling - bad cables make life miserable Network Switches/hubs/routers etc DNS IP address management Application/Service Email, web, etc (organization dependent) Procedural (How you and the organization work) Problem tracking/reporting Change management Administrative access Internal busimess processes, etc I've found that problems tend to percolate from physical -> network -> application/service in some rather subtle and nasty ways. A few other thoughts in no particular order: * Identify critical services (things that stop business, things that get you fired). Protect them as though your job depends upon it. :-) * Tread lightly at first. Take time to verify that what you're about to do won't kill something else. * Celebrate small improvements. In many cases, improvement happens as a result of small steps. When you're overwhelmed it's easy to overlook the cumulative effects of small fixes. * Talk to your users and managers. It's quick to conduct business via email, but many times you can find out more in a five minute conversation than in a 20 message email exchange. * There comes a point in any migration process after which you need to actively hunt down the stragglers and migrate them forcibly. Of course, the list goes on. Hopefully this can get you started. Good luck! Best, ---Steve From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 5 13:55:08 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05Lt7Ae005500 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:55:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k05Lt723005499 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:55:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from pickwick.garnix.org (pickwick.garnix.org [207.173.201.43]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05Lt4Ad005488 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:55:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pickwick.garnix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D12F17FCB; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:54:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pickwick.garnix.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (pickwick.garnix.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 28920-05-2; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:54:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by pickwick.garnix.org (Postfix, from userid 8046) id 10CC917F64; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:54:47 -0800 (PST) To: Amos Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sun IdM? References: <43BD8AB6.4060502@utdallas.edu> From: Darrell Fuhriman Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 13:54:46 -0800 In-Reply-To: <43BD8AB6.4060502@utdallas.edu> (Amos's message of "Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:08:06 -0600") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at garnix.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Amos writes: > Just curious if any folks here have any experience with Sun's IdM > tools, specifically: > > http://www.sun.com/software/javaenterprisesystem/identity_mgmt_suite/index.xml And another University joins the fray. :) We're currently in the middle of a pretty large implementation of Sun IdM -- connecting SCT Banner, Luminis, our Enterprise LDAP, and AD. I think there are quite a few Universities around that are in the same place. What sort of questions did you have? I would say that Identity Management is *hard*. :) Darrell From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 5 14:25:45 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05MPiAe006249 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:25:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k05MPi9S006248 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:25:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from metro.dst.or.us (pyrite.metro-region.org [67.138.101.226]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05MPaAd006239 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:25:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.70.44] (openside [192.168.70.44]) by metro.dst.or.us; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 14:25:20 -0800 Message-ID: <43BD9CCF.5060003@metro.dst.or.us> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 14:25:19 -0800 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs_Couto?= CC: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Strategies for taking ownership of existing infrastructure? References: <43BD9434.4090401@chem.wisc.edu> In-Reply-To: <43BD9434.4090401@chem.wisc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Jesús, I second all the advice so far. Life may be stressful at first, especially if a machine goes down, you lose power, or you have to reboot when you'd rather not... and the infrastructure doesn't come all the way up. Once something like this happens, your life won't be the same until know that you can freely reboot all your servers, and you know what their interdependencies are. In a "loose" environement, many servers can put put up, run for 400+ days, and things can get to the point where you realize you don't exactly know how to shut things down and bring them up in an orderly fashion, even when your own team set it all up! My advice to you is to tell management that you can't promise /anything/ until you have done some fire drills. Always inform your users and management if you must reboot an unknown server; and that you will know better NEXT TIME how long it will be before things are back on-line, etc. Also insist on carving out some time at night on the weekend where you have scheduled downtime if you need them. Even though many sites want 24x7 - because they think they can have it, build a case for having everything unavailable at 11 PM of Sat - 6 AM Sunday for example, then use it. Remain calm if something fails to come up. Use your head. Talk things through with a user of the system - even if they don't know system admin, they may prove to be a useful sounding board as you try to explain what isn't working. (They won't have anything better to do anyway, if their server is down. :^) Have fun! John Miller http://www.metro-region.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 5 14:37:57 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05MbuAe006807 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:37:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k05MbuLB006806 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:37:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.177]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05MbqAd006798 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:37:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [84.63.60.252] (helo=[127.0.0.1]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu3) with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKxQS-1Eudjy19dv-0000cl; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 23:37:50 +0100 Message-ID: <43BD9FC1.3020900@blahlalla.de> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 23:37:53 +0100 From: Thomas Leyer User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs_Couto?= CC: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Strategies for taking ownership of existing infrastructure? References: <43BD9434.4090401@chem.wisc.edu> In-Reply-To: <43BD9434.4090401@chem.wisc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:7faf66bafba11c62950d6ec711f9755b Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi Jesus, when starting my most chaotic job as a sysadmin there where just some aspects of the challenge you have to cope with... but I think some of those will be quite handy: - set up monitoring (if not in place.. which I would assume) It doesn't sound like a quick win in first place... but setting up some sort of monitoring covering all your machines will help you get a first overview of * what you have * what might be the difference between "similar machines" * which are the big troublemakers (even if your customer did not yet recognise them to be) For a start I used the free version of big brother, which comes with valuable agents out of the box... and (for solaris) even with reasonable threshholds. The best thing for me was the grouping of machines belongin together logically. The monitoring can represent a first kind of "asset/configuration management" The next thing I tried was having all alarms directed to my cell-phone... ginving me a REALLY good overview of "what's going on" and "which are the permanent trouble-makers"... but lead to about one year of "just work no fun".. ;-) - set up install servers (if not in place.. which I would assume) An already chaotic environment normally tends to quick evolution... you should be able to cope with new machines and services in a manner that you control... don't be the disk-jockey... do things once on your install server For further ideas it would be useful to know in what kind of organisation you are working... how many people and how many machines you are about to take over... (I'd assume you don't have to be SOX-compliant ;-)) Good luck! Thomas Steve Barnet wrote: > Jesús Couto wrote: > >> Hi. >> >> The subject line sound awful (and its my first post :-/). Basically >> I'm just asking for advice for the following situation: > > > Welcome to the jungle. :-) > > [...] > >> I guess people here have found themselves in the same situation... I'm >> trying to organize my ideas at all levels (technical, practices & >> procedures, organization, "office politics") about how to get to own >> the place. So any tip or advice you can come up with is welcome. > > > In the past I've found it helpful to do a couple things: > > 1) Start work on a simple network map. It should cover physical > and logical components. You might need a couple of documents > to cleanly represent the information. > > 2) Make a plan. Make your "this is messed up" list, and then > make a "how it should be" list. The plan is the how you get > yourself from "messed up" to "how it should be." It doesn't > have to be fancy, but it should be a list of projects broken > down into steps you can cross off as you go along. Doing this > helps keep you on course, and gives you a way to keep track > of what you've accomplished. > > You can organize the plan in whatever way makes sense to you. > I've found the following to work well for me (in rough order of > system impact): > > Physical > Find and label everything - if you can't find it, you can't fix it. > Environment issues (power, cooling, noise, physical access, etc) > Cabling - bad cables make life miserable > > Network > Switches/hubs/routers etc > DNS > IP address management > > Application/Service > Email, web, etc (organization dependent) > > Procedural (How you and the organization work) > Problem tracking/reporting > Change management > Administrative access > Internal busimess processes, etc > > I've found that problems tend to percolate from physical -> > network -> application/service in some rather subtle and nasty ways. > > A few other thoughts in no particular order: > > * Identify critical services (things that stop business, things > that get you fired). Protect them as though your job depends upon > it. :-) > > * Tread lightly at first. Take time to verify that what you're about > to do won't kill something else. > > * Celebrate small improvements. In many cases, improvement happens > as a result of small steps. When you're overwhelmed it's easy to > overlook the cumulative effects of small fixes. > > * Talk to your users and managers. It's quick to conduct business via > email, but many times you can find out more in a five minute > conversation than in a 20 message email exchange. > > * There comes a point in any migration process after which you need > to actively hunt down the stragglers and migrate them forcibly. > > Of course, the list goes on. Hopefully this can get you started. > > Good luck! > > Best, > > ---Steve > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 5 14:42:26 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05MgQAe007177 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k05MgP7S007176 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:42:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05MgNAe007169 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:42:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k05MgNZI007167 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:42:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from firefly.zonker.net ([64.34.175.216]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05MK6Ad006148 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:20:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.26] (c-67-164-187-12.hsd1.co.comcast.net [67.164.187.12]) by firefly.zonker.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2483B61006A; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 22:20:06 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <43BD9BDE.7020901@zonker.net> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:21:18 -0700 From: "Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discuss@lopsa.org Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: [lopsa-discuss] Any suggestions for a good LINUX Administrators book References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk John Boris wrote: > I am looking for a good LINUX (Preferably Fedora) Administrators > reference book. Most of the stuff I have been finding always points to > the GUI interface (which I only have on one of my servers). These > servers are on a Private network and not seen to the Internet. I have > been searching on the net and have read the How-Tos but even they always > point to the GUI tools. I am looking for a good reference that shows > some command line references. I did come across one good How-To but I > want to find a hard copy, preferably one that has a good index. I would recommend "A Practical Guide to Red Hat Linux" (ISBN 0-13-147024-8) -- it's pretty good, for Fedora/RH. It is slightly dated now, since it's for FC2 -- you might wait to see if they put out an updated version when FC5 is released. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier "Liberty's too precious a thing to be buried in books... Men should hold it up in front of them every single day of their lives and say: I'm free to think and to speak. My ancestors couldn't, I can, and my children will. Boys ought to grow up remembering that." "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" -- James Stewart From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 5 14:56:56 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05MuqAe007751 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:56:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k05Muqrx007749 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:56:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05MuiAd007742 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:56:47 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [SAGE] Strategies for taking ownership of existing infrastructure? Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:56:38 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Strategies for taking ownership of existing infrastructure? Thread-Index: AcYSLtYrpbTvSi+pT/i+c5XWQNaUzwAGDMDA From: "Dave Hilton" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs_Couto?= Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k05MupAd007745 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Jesus, Your discription of your predicament brought back some vivid memories. Hang in there, it's a noble fight. I always start by reminding myself that there is a huge gap between "it works" and "how I'd do it" - it's the only way I can avoid ulcers. Find out what users are complaining about and try to "fix" something that is obvious and noticable amongst your users. This gets people on your side and buys you some time to think and organize. Get your own personal workstation tuned, then begin by tuning everyting between you and the Internet and between you and the important internal services (NTP, SMTP, DNS, VPN, file shares, etc.) I have found that by the time I get MY things running the way I want - many others have reaped the reward. Try to condense services into fewer boxes (computer and network) then, using the liberated boxes, rebuild in parallel with what is already in place. This is more easily done in the network, not so easily done in the servers. Example: When I joined my current employer, the network consisted of five daisy-chained hubs, the users complained of sluggishness and erratic behavior. By installing a single 24 port switch I made EVERYONE happy and it was at least a week before anyone came to me with additional "hey, can you take a look at this" problems. By then, I had a rough electrical distribution map worked out; a network map with user names, room numbers, wall plate identification, and switch port numbers; lined up an outside Unix guru to lend me a hand; and contacted an ISP who could give us something better than a dial-up email drop account. In retrospect I think I benefited by the fact that there were so many things wrong that dramatic changes occurred daily for the first month and I looked like a Real Hero. It took another month to work out the SAMBA and NFS maps, synchronize usernames and passwords across all platforms (by manual intervention since NIS and I don't get along well), install four more central servers, reconfigur most of the laptops and workstations, run the printers through queues (instead of each workstation talikng directly to each printer), put the servers, network switch, and the telephone switch on UPSes (since we were good for one power interruption a week at the location). The third month I installed a firewall and new ISP connection (ganged ISDN.) Believe it or not, the work got harder after that because I had run out of "obvious & dramatic" things to do. Hope you can find some hope and guidance in what I've written. Dave Hilton Network Administrator entelos® Foster City, CA Clarity in The Age of Plausible Reality From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 5 15:53:05 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05Nr3Ae009173 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:53:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k05Nr2lw009169 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:53:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k05NqvAe009156 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:52:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k05Nqrj0064078; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 18:52:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 17:47:49 -0600 To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs_Couto?= From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] Strategies for taking ownership of existing infrastructure? Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 8:28 PM +0100 2006-01-05, Jesús Couto wrote: > I guess people here have found themselves in the same situation... I'm > trying to organize my ideas at all levels (technical, practices & > procedures, organization, "office politics") about how to get to own > the place. So any tip or advice you can come up with is welcome. In my experience, you can get a certain amount of information by installing systems profiling tools (e.g., MagniComp SysInfo), network profiling tools (e.g., nmap and Nessus), systems/network monitoring tools (e.g., Munin and rrdtool). You can even gather a certain amount of additional information by watching who screams when a system crashes. But you're never going to get complete information on the existing systems. IMO, the only way you can get complete information is by re-installing every system, consolidating services (when and where that makes technical and political sense), and basically rebuilding everything. And make sure that you document everything you do, so that whomever comes after you doesn't have the same problem. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 5 16:39:07 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k060d6Ae010214 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:39:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k060d6Vh010213 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:39:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.85]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k060csAd010205 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:38:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from guyver.demon.co.uk ([62.49.6.63]) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1EufVx-0009Jt-Gx for sage-members@sage.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 00:31:29 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.home [127.0.0.1]) by guyver.demon.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE3971B1F13 for ; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 00:38:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from guyver.demon.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (jabberwock.home [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02431-08 for ; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 00:38:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [192.168.1.101]) by guyver.demon.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E371B1F0B for ; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 00:38:33 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43BDBC04.1060909@guyver.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 00:38:28 +0000 From: Martin Jackson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Strategies for taking ownership of existing infrastructure? References: <43BD8F28.8030405@guyver.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <43BD8F28.8030405@guyver.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0601-2, 05/01/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at guyver.demon.co.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k060d5Ad010209 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Another suggestion I remember is to log a helpdesk ticket for everything, and I mean everything! Every request, every issue you think should be fixed, every little niggle/issue you come across from host x keeps panicing on at 3:00am to labeling the internet router it'll help you learn your networks pain points very quickly and help you remember all the stuff that needs to be fixed. -Martin Martin Jackson wrote: > Jesús, I'd suggest 3 books: > > The Practice of System and Network Administration, ISBN:0201702711 > Blueprints for High Availability, ISBN 0471430269 > Automating Unix and Linux Administration, ISBN 1590592123 > > and one website > > http://www.infrastructures.org > > When I took control of the infrastructure at my current workplace, the > last sysadmin had walked out, there was minimal documentation (i.e. > the passwords) and not much else, and the was network problems like > you would not believe, at the time I used the www.infrastructures.org > checklist and it got me up and running I started a webpage about what > I was doing a few ago but never finished it > (http://www.guyver.demon.co.uk/projects/WideScaleLinuxDeployment.html) > your welcome to look at it but its wildly out of date now and a lot > has changed. > I've read the above 3 books and wish I had those as well at the time > but I review them continually over and over again because there are > some serious nuggets of information that can be found in later reads. > > The best thing I suggest is auditting what you've got at the moment > and trying to find the dependencies between them and work on a > template for dragging the systems into some sort of standard or > imposing a new infrastructure template using new equipment and > transition all services to that if possible. > > Good luck > > -Martin Jackson > > Jesús Couto wrote: > >> Hi. >> >> The subject line sound awful (and its my first post :-/). Basically >> I'm just asking for advice for the following situation: >> >> I'm now the primary sysadmin dealing with Unix systems, somewhere. As >> such, I've find myself inheriting the current infrastructure... what >> that means? >> >> It means I have to support process & applications I dont know about & >> didnt install, and are not documented... basically, things "work", by >> virtue of being more or less evolved and hammered till they do, but I >> dont have a clear picture of ... well anything, and the way thing >> works is very brittle. One machine uses one mail server, another uses >> other that is not listed anywhere, DNS is not coherent either, with >> each machine configured to use either a differen server or its own >> /etc/hosts files... same for proxies, same for... everything. List of >> things "wrong" here is enourmous, mainly in the "this thing doesnt >> scale and sure it is not easy to transfer admin to anybody that was >> not here where the working hacks where put in place". >> >> I guess people here have found themselves in the same situation... I'm >> trying to organize my ideas at all levels (technical, practices & >> procedures, organization, "office politics") about how to get to own >> the place. So any tip or advice you can come up with is welcome. >> >> Thanks in advance... I'll try to work on putting whatever suggestions >> you come up and my ideas in place... >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Jesús Couto F. >> >> >> >> > > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 6 12:06:55 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k06K6qAe015240 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:06:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k06K6qcb015237 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:06:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.22]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k06K6TAd015202 for ; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:06:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.100] (zn.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.30]) by m1.imap-partners.net (MOS 3.7.1-GA) with ESMTP id AEF40441 (AUTH strata@imap-partners.net) for ; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:06:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43BECDC4.5040804@virtual.net> Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:06:28 -0800 From: "Strata R. Chalup" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE mailing list Subject: [SAGE] [Fwd: [IP] Microsoft officially posts WMF patch] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [IP] Microsoft officially posts WMF patch Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 06:03:05 -0500 From: David Farber Reply-To: dave@farber.net To: ip@v2.listbox.com References: <43BDB5D4.4080204@research.telcordia.com> Begin forwarded message: From: Will Leland Date: January 5, 2006 7:12:04 PM EST To: dave@farber.net Cc: "wel >> Will Leland" Subject: Microsoft officially posts WMF patch Dave, In case you've not seen this update: Microsoft today released its patch for the WMF vulnerability; it may be installed using Windows Update or from http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/ms06-001.mspx If you've already installed Guilfanov's hotfix, the best approach is to first apply the Microsoft patch (and reboot as needed) and then use Control Panel -> Add or Remove Programs to remove Guifanov's HotFix. -- Will ------------------------------------- You are subscribed as strata@virtual.net To manage your subscription, go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ -- ======================================================================== Strata R Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net Virtual.Net Inc http://www.virtual.net/ ** Strategic IT for the Growing Enterprise ** ========================================================================= From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 6 12:23:40 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k06KNcAe016302 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:23:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k06KNcZq016301 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:23:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mdev.river.com (yampa.river.com [206.168.112.68]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k06KNVAd016253 for ; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:23:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (v13.river.com [206.168.117.188]) by mdev.river.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5286223F45; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:23:18 -0700 (MST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200601041713.13443.obejas@exile.esn.us.ray.com> References: <1BCEBD6E-D0B2-4E56-A1C8-09F06F731150@treyka.net> <200601041713.13443.obejas@exile.esn.us.ray.com> Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:22:38 -0700 To: Mario Obejas From: "Richard Johnson" Subject: Re: [SAGE] What are you all doing about the WMF exploit? Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 17:13 -0800 on 2006-01-04, Mario Obejas wrote: > Richard, I really appreciate your response. > Did you mean 6 out of 16 hosts? I did not understand the /16. 6 out of 2000+ hosts on a /16 network allocation (netmask 255.255.0.0). > Also, can you elaborate on context, e.g., users of the compromised hosts, > e.g., > ISP customers? > Engineers? > Office workers? The hosts are in use by office workers, engineers, technicians, scientists and family members abusing those employees' laptops at their homes. I haven't tried to break it down between the groups. Of course, this is now mooted by MS's release of their official patch. Normally, we'd mandate that on an emergency basis given the criticality rating. However, the MS patch coexists quite happily with the Guilfanov unofficial patch, so we're not in as crashing a hurry for the official one now. We'll thus be applying the official patch in a more leisurely manner, and later removing the Guilfanov patch as users reboot. Richard From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Jan 8 20:58:49 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k094wmAe006454 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 20:58:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k094wm52006453 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 20:58:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from vega.opentrend.net (vega.opentrend.net [65.39.131.100]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k094wjAd006448 for ; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 20:58:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vega.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE4005801208 for ; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:56:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from vega.opentrend.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (vega [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21690-09 for ; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:56:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimosa.opentrend.net (unknown [192.168.120.11]) by vega.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 877DC5801003 for ; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:56:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by mimosa.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 30DC01C081BE; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:58:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mimosa.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B7521C081BD for ; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:58:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:58:44 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Brockway To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Strategies for taking ownership of existing infrastructure? In-Reply-To: <43BD9CCF.5060003@metro.dst.or.us> Message-ID: References: <43BD9434.4090401@chem.wisc.edu> <43BD9CCF.5060003@metro.dst.or.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at opentrend.net Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, John Miller wrote: > Also insist on carving out some time at night on the weekend where you have > scheduled downtime if you need them. Even though many sites want 24x7 - > because they think they can have it, build a case for having everything Indeed. True 6 sigma is really expensive :) > Remain calm if something fails to come up. Use your head. Talk things > through with a user of the system - even if they don't know system admin, > they may prove to be a useful sounding board as you try to explain what isn't > working. (They won't have anything better to do anyway, if their server is > down. :^) Good advice John. Another important point for the original poster to remember is that there are plenty of Sysadmins who hang around in real-time answering questions (on irc, etc). Before the disaster happens scout out a few likely places to get real-time support. And finally, don't be afraid to make a case for bringing specialised consultants in. If the situation is as bad as indicated then a little $ now may save a lot of $$$$$ later. This is not a slight against the on-site sysadmin: computing is simply too large and complex for anyone to master it all. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support@opentrend.net OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 9 02:01:40 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09A1eAe012498 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 02:01:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k09A1eRF012496 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 02:01:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from nproxy.gmail.com (nproxy.gmail.com [64.233.182.193]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09A1TAd012491 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 02:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by nproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id n28so84907nfc for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2006 02:00:50 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=rw+/9UOqlGeMwyxGXWtWVt2h9OzRfjE0u7Ir88rsZT//SOxMVSYAyI9AeQIGyPyn4LEi1Yof5pDZxtE2hYNjyDEFIG1vh5UydZyf/q2DkFBO4+iHPUcMetaNXCDxUN2oqyhEH19USNFODR9OxTygzc5FfvCFgxqaCMgAzT1XL8o= Received: by 10.48.209.20 with SMTP id h20mr893197nfg; Mon, 09 Jan 2006 02:00:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.48.14.5 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 02:00:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:00:50 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs_Couto?= To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Strategies for taking ownership of existing infrastructure? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <43BD9434.4090401@chem.wisc.edu> <43BD9CCF.5060003@metro.dst.or.us> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k09A1cAd012492 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Thanks to all of you for your answers, which surely will take me some time to consolidate :-) Some more info about the enviroment, as requested... - Telecom company. Dept. deals with support of applications related to billing, inventory of assets and tracking of orders (like, client X wants ADSL, he lives in address Y so this relates to equipment Z...) - ~ 40 - 50 machines (the fact I'm not sure is another indicator...). - OS: HP-UX has the most critical apps, but it would be something like 50% HP-UX hosts, 50% Solaris, with some Linux machines around in some hidden corners. - Apps are either commercial software specific to the task (we have people in charge of each) & web apps in Java (using iplanet as the app server) developed by some other department (and guess, no, they dont use version control...). Heavy use of Oracle (we have a DBA around but he has been here... 2 weeks, so its like we are all on the same boat). - Backups are part of my main responsability, and headaches... using NetBackup and DataProtector, and having errors almost all days. - There is some monitoring in place, via scripts. In fact, one of the pains is the monitoring. 600 messages just today in the morning. There is a project to move to OpenView, but who knows when. I'll let you know how it goes once I start doing something about this with your recommendations. Thanks again! Jesús Couto From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 9 10:07:37 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09I7bAe019095 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:07:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k09I7b8c019094 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:07:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09I7aAe019088 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:07:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k09I7an1019087 for sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:07:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from vega.opentrend.net (vega.opentrend.net [65.39.131.100]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k094pDAd006292 for ; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 20:51:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vega.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6096A5801208 for ; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:48:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from vega.opentrend.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (vega [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21690-06 for ; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:48:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimosa.opentrend.net (unknown [192.168.120.11]) by vega.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06FE75800F12 for ; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:48:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by mimosa.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9E43E1C081BE; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mimosa.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92D731C081BD for ; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:51:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:51:11 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Brockway To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Strategies for taking ownership of existing infrastructure? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-1463809160-1105408399-1136782271=:5675" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at opentrend.net Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---1463809160-1105408399-1136782271=:5675 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Jes=FAs Couto wrote: > It means I have to support process & applications I dont know about & > didnt install, and are not documented... basically, things "work", by > virtue of being more or less evolved and hammered till they do, but I > dont have a clear picture of ... well anything, and the way thing > works is very brittle. One machine uses one mail server, another uses > other that is not listed anywhere, DNS is not coherent either, with > each machine configured to use either a differen server or its own > /etc/hosts files... same for proxies, same for... everything. List of > things "wrong" here is enourmous, mainly in the "this thing doesnt > scale and sure it is not easy to transfer admin to anybody that was > not here where the working hacks where put in place". Ouch. This sounds bad. I've been involved in cleaning up quite a few=20 poor environments. It's never fun. You're getting a lot of useful comments on "how" to do clean up in this=20 thread which is great. I wanted to add something a bit different. Make sure management know how bad the situation is. Don't pull your=20 punches. The key is to be honest. If you believe that this is an=20 accident waiting to happen, say so. Put it in writing, listing key=20 concerns. Management generally aren't techs so they need to rely on you=20 to tell them the bad news. You'll need the backing of management for the= =20 pain to come. This may come across as criticism of the old sysadmin and it is important= =20 to avoid this if possible. During the explanations to management I'd focus= =20 on how you can fix the problems and how much better everything will be=20 afterwards rather than how the systems got to be that bad in the first=20 place. You may wish to even arrange for a general meeting with staff to explain=20 to them that a major clean up is needed and that it is coming. Such a=20 major clean up will not go unnoticed by workers so having their=20 understanding will go along way. Good luck with the clean up. Rob --=20 Robert Brockway B.Sc.=09=09Phone:=09+1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant=09Email:=09support@opentrend.net OpenTrend Solutions Ltd.=09Web:=09www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. ---1463809160-1105408399-1136782271=:5675-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 9 10:08:12 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09I8BAe019144 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:08:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k09I8Bkh019143 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:08:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09I8AAe019137 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:08:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k09I89DF019136 for sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:08:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from coke.conundrum.com (coke.conundrum.com [216.235.9.139]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09FuCAe016972 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 07:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [216.235.13.82] ([216.235.13.82]) by coke.conundrum.com (8.13.1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k09FtF3G075043; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:55:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from matt@conundrum.com) In-Reply-To: References: <43BD9434.4090401@chem.wisc.edu> <43BD9CCF.5060003@metro.dst.or.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-3--398829909" Message-Id: <300DA7C5-8F27-470E-B5E6-858AF004D2CB@conundrum.com> Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matt Pounsett Subject: Re: [SAGE] Strategies for taking ownership of existing infrastructure? Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:55:59 -0500 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs_Couto?= X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.1.1 (Tiger) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-3--398829909 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed On 2006-Jan-09, at 05:00 , Jes=FAs Couto wrote: > > - There is some monitoring in place, via scripts. In fact, one of the > pains is the monitoring. 600 messages just today in the morning. There > is a project to move to OpenView, but who knows when. Even if there's a plan to move to OpenView, you might do well to =20 replace/clean up the current monitoring. Which you do depends on =20 whether the 600 alarms you've got this morning are the result of bad =20 monitoring software, bad configuration of the monitoring, or (god =20 forbid) real honest-to-goodness errors on your systems. First, setting up something else (like nagios, or big brother) is =20 guaranteed to be faster than setting up OpenView, so you'll have =20 something working in the interim, while you wait for the PTB to =20 decide on a timeline for OpenView. Second, one you have something else up and running cleanly, you (and =20 they) may come to the realization that you don't actually need OV. =20 There are cases where networks actually *need* OV, but in my =20 experience that's rare. I find it tends to be selected more for =20 political/marketing reasons, and it brings to your network its own =20 complexity which can be a problem if you're not a large network to =20 require it (and therefore large enough to support it). Good luck, Matt Pounsett --Apple-Mail-3--398829909 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDwoeVae4z2vjbC8sRAjjUAJ0UJfat+/0dUM7n1QomZrQZopxjqwCfQRv0 7U8lQzHrEW4OMd3+QdjTyRY= =UVuP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-3--398829909-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 9 11:10:54 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09JArAe021135 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:10:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k09JAr0X021134 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:10:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.22]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09JAgAd021128 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.100] (zn.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.30]) by m1.imap-partners.net (MOS 3.7.1-GA) with ESMTP id AEG07727 (AUTH strata@imap-partners.net) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:10:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43C2B52F.4090908@virtual.net> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 11:10:39 -0800 From: "Strata R. Chalup" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE mailing list Subject: [SAGE] [Fwd: [IRR] Create an e-annoyance, go to jail] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This looks like 10 pounds of trouble in a 5 pound box. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [IRR] Create an e-annoyance, go to jail Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:12:43 -0500 From: Monty Solomon To: undisclosed-recipient: ; Create an e-annoyance, go to jail By Declan McCullagh Story last modified Mon Jan 09 04:00:00 PST 2006 Annoying someone via the Internet is now a federal crime. It's no joke. Last Thursday, President Bush signed into law a prohibition on posting annoying Web messages or sending annoying e-mail messages without disclosing your true identity. In other words, it's OK to flame someone on a mailing list or in a blog as long as you do it under your real name. Thank Congress for small favors, I guess. This ridiculous prohibition, which would likely imperil much of Usenet, is buried in the so-called Violence Against Women and Department of Justice Reauthorization Act. Criminal penalties include stiff fines and two years in prison. "The use of the word 'annoy' is particularly problematic," says Marv Johnson, legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union. "What's annoying to one person may not be annoying to someone else." Buried deep in the new law is Sec. 113, an innocuously titled bit called "Preventing Cyberstalking." It rewrites existing telephone harassment law to prohibit anyone from using the Internet "without disclosing his identity and with intent to annoy." ... http://news.com.com/2010-1028-6022491.html _______________________________________________ Irregulars mailing list Irregulars@tb.tf http://tb.tf/mailman/listinfo/irregulars -- ======================================================================== Strata R Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net Virtual.Net Inc http://www.virtual.net/ ** Strategic IT for the Growing Enterprise ** ========================================================================= From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 9 11:14:17 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09JEGAe021388 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k09JEGkG021383 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:14:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09JEFAd021366 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:14:15 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] Strategies for taking ownership of existing infrastructure? Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:14:09 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Strategies for taking ownership of existing infrastructure? Thread-Index: AcYVSD2nVXJAHY1sS6qz32uZrR9GeQACE45g From: "Dave Hilton" To: "Robert Brockway" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k09JEFAd021378 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Rob said: "Ouch. This sounds bad. I've been involved in cleaning up quite a few poor environments. It's never fun." And some of us get a real kick and satisfaction out of cleaning up hopeless situations. Hilton From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 9 11:17:19 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09JHHAe021755 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:17:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k09JHHr0021753 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:17:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from e-c-group.com (persephone.e-c-group.com [216.128.192.244]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09JHFAd021724 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:17:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [216.128.150.157] (account lindsey [216.128.150.157] verified) by e-c-group.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.3) with ESMTPSA id 59288415; Mon, 09 Jan 2006 14:17:04 -0500 In-Reply-To: <43C2B52F.4090908@virtual.net> References: <43C2B52F.4090908@virtual.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <4E849C20-BCF0-4DD3-B9EF-B112E63D98FB@acm.org> Cc: SAGE mailing list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Mark R. Lindsey" Subject: Re: [SAGE] [Fwd: [IRR] Create an e-annoyance, go to jail] Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:17:04 -0500 To: "Strata R. Chalup" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This whole thread/rumor is based on silly generalizations of the telecom and rules that apply it to Internet-based telephony. VoIP is legally considered, for certain purposes, telephony. That doesn't mean that *everything* IP is no governed by laws and rules that apply to telephones. If this were true, you'd already have to pay federal excise tax on your ISP access charges. But you don't. Do you think they'd let you keep money if they thought it could be collected as taxes? Of course, lawyers and politicians may turn out to excel at silly generalizations of this sort, and try to do exactly what's dreaded. On Jan 9, 2006, at 2:10 PM, Strata R. Chalup wrote: > > This looks like 10 pounds of trouble in a 5 pound box. > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [IRR] Create an e-annoyance, go to jail > Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:12:43 -0500 > From: Monty Solomon > To: undisclosed-recipient: ; > > > Create an e-annoyance, go to jail > By Declan McCullagh > Story last modified Mon Jan 09 04:00:00 PST 2006 > > Annoying someone via the Internet is now a federal crime. > > It's no joke. Last Thursday, President Bush signed into law a > prohibition on posting annoying Web messages or sending annoying > e-mail messages without disclosing your true identity. > > In other words, it's OK to flame someone on a mailing list or in a > blog as long as you do it under your real name. Thank Congress for > small favors, I guess. > > This ridiculous prohibition, which would likely imperil much of > Usenet, is buried in the so-called Violence Against Women and > Department of Justice Reauthorization Act. Criminal penalties include > stiff fines and two years in prison. > > "The use of the word 'annoy' is particularly problematic," says Marv > Johnson, legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union. > "What's annoying to one person may not be annoying to someone else." > > Buried deep in the new law is Sec. 113, an innocuously titled bit > called "Preventing Cyberstalking." It rewrites existing telephone > harassment law to prohibit anyone from using the Internet "without > disclosing his identity and with intent to annoy." > > ... > > http://news.com.com/2010-1028-6022491.html > _______________________________________________ > Irregulars mailing list > Irregulars@tb.tf > http://tb.tf/mailman/listinfo/irregulars > > > > -- > ====================================================================== > == > Strata R Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" > virtual.net > Virtual.Net Inc http:// > www.virtual.net/ > ** Strategic IT for the Growing Enterprise ** > ====================================================================== > === From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 9 11:26:04 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09JQ2Ae022363 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:26:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k09JQ2XE022362 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:26:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09JQ1Ad022357 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:26:01 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] [Fwd: [IRR] Create an e-annoyance, go to jail] Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:25:55 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] [Fwd: [IRR] Create an e-annoyance, go to jail] Thread-Index: AcYVUPitKPyJmG1FRjufBgaVOE4MvQAAPjXA From: "Dave Hilton" To: "Strata R. Chalup" , "SAGE mailing list" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k09JQ1Ad022358 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This aught to be really fun to watch. Living in a country and in a time where any legislative body can "pass" piece of legislation, and only a Court can tell us what it "means". Pop the top, rock back in the old recliner, and watch the show.......... Dave Annoyance Hilton From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 9 11:55:24 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09JtNAe023864 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:55:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k09JtMfp023863 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:55:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.22]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09JtKAd023857 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:55:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.100] (zn.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.30]) by m1.imap-partners.net (MOS 3.7.1-GA) with ESMTP id AEG08820 (AUTH strata@imap-partners.net) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:55:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43C2BFA6.8010306@virtual.net> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 11:55:18 -0800 From: "Strata R. Chalup" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] [Fwd: [IRR] Create an e-annoyance, go to jail] References: <43C2B52F.4090908@virtual.net> <4E849C20-BCF0-4DD3-B9EF-B112E63D98FB@acm.org> In-Reply-To: <4E849C20-BCF0-4DD3-B9EF-B112E63D98FB@acm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Um, this is not about tariffs nor telephones-- this is specifically about web and email. So where is the generalization part? SRC Mark R. Lindsey wrote: > > This whole thread/rumor is based on silly generalizations of the > telecom and rules that apply it to Internet-based telephony. VoIP is > legally considered, for certain purposes, telephony. That doesn't mean > that *everything* IP is no governed by laws and rules that apply to > telephones. > > If this were true, you'd already have to pay federal excise tax on your > ISP access charges. But you don't. Do you think they'd let you keep > money if they thought it could be collected as taxes? > > > > Of course, lawyers and politicians may turn out to excel at silly > generalizations of this sort, and try to do exactly what's dreaded. > > > > On Jan 9, 2006, at 2:10 PM, Strata R. Chalup wrote: > >> >> This looks like 10 pounds of trouble in a 5 pound box. >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: [IRR] Create an e-annoyance, go to jail >> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:12:43 -0500 >> From: Monty Solomon >> To: undisclosed-recipient: ; >> >> >> Create an e-annoyance, go to jail >> By Declan McCullagh >> Story last modified Mon Jan 09 04:00:00 PST 2006 >> >> Annoying someone via the Internet is now a federal crime. >> >> It's no joke. Last Thursday, President Bush signed into law a >> prohibition on posting annoying Web messages or sending annoying >> e-mail messages without disclosing your true identity. >> >> In other words, it's OK to flame someone on a mailing list or in a >> blog as long as you do it under your real name. Thank Congress for >> small favors, I guess. >> >> This ridiculous prohibition, which would likely imperil much of >> Usenet, is buried in the so-called Violence Against Women and >> Department of Justice Reauthorization Act. Criminal penalties include >> stiff fines and two years in prison. >> >> "The use of the word 'annoy' is particularly problematic," says Marv >> Johnson, legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union. >> "What's annoying to one person may not be annoying to someone else." >> >> Buried deep in the new law is Sec. 113, an innocuously titled bit >> called "Preventing Cyberstalking." It rewrites existing telephone >> harassment law to prohibit anyone from using the Internet "without >> disclosing his identity and with intent to annoy." >> >> ... >> >> http://news.com.com/2010-1028-6022491.html >> _______________________________________________ >> Irregulars mailing list >> Irregulars@tb.tf >> http://tb.tf/mailman/listinfo/irregulars >> >> >> >> -- >> ====================================================================== == >> Strata R Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net >> Virtual.Net Inc http:// www.virtual.net/ >> ** Strategic IT for the Growing Enterprise ** >> ====================================================================== >> === > > > -- ======================================================================== Strata R Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net Virtual.Net Inc http://www.virtual.net/ ** Strategic IT for the Growing Enterprise ** ========================================================================= From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 9 11:56:59 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09JuvAe023954 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:56:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k09Juv3P023953 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:56:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.menolly.net (216-250-182-89.dsl.iphouse.net [216.250.182.89]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09JutAd023947 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:56:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.menolly.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60B66280E0; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:56:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.menolly.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.menolly.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03199-08; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:56:46 -0600 (CST) Received: by mail.menolly.net (Postfix, from userid 48) id 37DF9280E1; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:56:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from 56.0.84.23 (SquirrelMail authenticated user btpier) by www.menolly.net with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:56:46 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <61229.56.0.84.23.1136836606.squirrel@www.menolly.net> In-Reply-To: <4E849C20-BCF0-4DD3-B9EF-B112E63D98FB@acm.org> References: <43C2B52F.4090908@virtual.net> <4E849C20-BCF0-4DD3-B9EF-B112E63D98FB@acm.org> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:56:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] [Fwd: [IRR] Create an e-annoyance, go to jail] From: "Bryce T. Pier" To: "Mark R. Lindsey" Cc: "SAGE mailing list" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.4-1.FC2.2.legacy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at menolly.net Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, January 9, 2006 1:17 pm, Mark R. Lindsey said: > > This whole thread/rumor is based on silly generalizations of the > telecom and rules that apply it to Internet-based telephony. VoIP is > legally considered, for certain purposes, telephony. That doesn't > mean that *everything* IP is no governed by laws and rules that apply > to telephones. I hope you're right but I think email would fall within "other types of communications". `(C) in the case of subparagraph (C) of subsection (a)(1), includes any device or software that can be used to originate telecommunications or other types of communications that are transmitted, in whole or in part, by the Internet (as such term is defined in section 1104 of the Internet Tax Freedom Act (47 U.S.C. 151 note)).'. I'd be more inclined to believe you're correct if it stated something to the effect of "other types of verbal communications". I think that lack of distinction is important. -- Bryce T. Pier btpier@menolly.net From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 9 14:36:08 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09Ma7Ae027648 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:36:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k09Ma7Wk027647 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:36:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09Ma6Ae027642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k09Ma5wS027641 for sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k09MDCAd027136 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:13:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from guyver.demon.co.uk ([62.49.6.63]) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Ew5GF-0009aB-2F for sage-members@sage.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2006 22:13:07 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.home [127.0.0.1]) by guyver.demon.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFACE1B1F1B for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:13:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from guyver.demon.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (jabberwock.home [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06944-08 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:12:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [192.168.1.101]) by guyver.demon.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42D8D1B1F0B for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:12:51 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43C2DFBE.7020403@guyver.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 22:12:14 +0000 From: Martin Jackson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0602-1, 09/01/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at guyver.demon.co.uk Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, I'm looking for some advice or just maybe to vent generally, I'm not sure what. I work in an organisation of just over 130 people with a support staff of 4 people, we're an EDA house and our corporate policy is that we purchase Dell machines (we know the hardware and have faily good relationships with our Dell account managers), the policy is documented but our Exec management continually flaunt it i.e. they have Apple Macs and they advocate their Apple i-books to their direct reports (which we can deal with, Apple users are generally religious about their Mac's) but now we've opened another office in a new continent and they have let them use Sony Vaios so now we have 3 hardware platforms to deal with. My team is having trouble just keeping up with support of the Dell Laptop's as well as the server, corpwan & engineering infrastructure as well as new projects & request, note. almost all users have a laptops and they can be somewhat troublesome to deal with (the laptops, not th users, I mean ;-) ). I've been accused of abusing using my power by the Exec's by trying to enforce the corporate policy of Dell and maybe their right, I attempted to enforce the policy in order to minimise the support burden and standardise on a supportable base for hardware support and software deployment. What can I do to mitigate this situation? I feel split down the middle i.e. people should be able to work with what they're comfortable in order to get the best from them and I want our IT Service organisation to be business enablers but we're resource constrained and the fewer platforms we deal with the better service we can offer our users i.e. faster provision, better software & hardware support and repairs, etc. Cheers -Martin From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 9 16:31:16 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0A0VFAe000692 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:31:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A0VFwM000691 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:31:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.201]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0A0VBAd000684 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id s18so4579740nze for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2006 16:31:10 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hRY4SXW78VWqWHicyrUkFbqwPZZp9sSW1UyAhfS9HwYwwrM9mZO1hgBIaB+tOhTFYPw4h+MC4xV6UQP7TUrvcYTB0wSSgAyx8sMNMhUCj7TOeJfm0gIvLnhZFLLshspGftGzA+2es6egL4JwolTojtrwQb1OUu/o7H60LikDc3E= Received: by 10.64.143.7 with SMTP id q7mr2704939qbd; Mon, 09 Jan 2006 16:31:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.213.8 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:31:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 19:31:10 -0500 From: Mark Ramm To: Martin Jackson Subject: Re: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop Cc: sage-members@sage.org In-Reply-To: <43C2DFBE.7020403@guyver.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <43C2DFBE.7020403@guyver.demon.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k0A0VEAd000687 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk First I understand your plight. We used to support g4 macs, dell laptops, hp servers, a couple of Sony vaio's and a grab bag of random desktops. The key for us to convince the senior management to change their policy was to document the turn around time for getting a user back up and running on our standard platform (where we had hot-spares waiting to be imaged) vs one of the non-standard computers. Then anytime somebody wanted something non-standard, we asked them to sign a receipt that said our standard end user machine SLA did not apply, substituting it for the response time of the vendor plus shipping and 1 day internal turn around time. In general they were giving up a turn around time of approximately 1 hr (during work hours) for a turn around time in the neighborhood of one or two weeks. For non-senior people we asked the managers to also sign that they were made aware of this information. This didn't end the problem right away, and some people choose to take the risk. But it did give us a chance to educate users about the trade-off's that they were making. And a few unplanned outages (with the Sony Vaio's in particular) really enhanced the message we were trying to send. One thing I never tried to do was enforce a policy -- only to educate everyone about the trade-off's that existed. Eventually people's managers would go to bat for us, because they weren't willing to risk a week downtime for one of their key people. --Mark Ramm On 1/9/06, Martin Jackson wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm looking for some advice or just maybe to vent generally, I'm not > sure what. > > I work in an organisation of just over 130 people with a support staff > of 4 people, we're an EDA house and our corporate policy is that we > purchase Dell machines (we know the hardware and have faily good > relationships with our Dell account managers), the policy is documented > but our Exec management continually flaunt it i.e. they have Apple Macs > and they advocate their Apple i-books to their direct reports (which we > can deal with, Apple users are generally religious about their Mac's) > but now we've opened another office in a new continent and they have let > them use Sony Vaios so now we have 3 hardware platforms to deal with. My > team is having trouble just keeping up with support of the Dell Laptop's > as well as the server, corpwan & engineering infrastructure as well as > new projects & request, note. almost all users have a laptops and they > can be somewhat troublesome to deal with (the laptops, not th users, I > mean ;-) ). > > I've been accused of abusing using my power by the Exec's by trying to > enforce the corporate policy of Dell and maybe their right, I attempted > to enforce the policy in order to minimise the support burden and > standardise on a supportable base for hardware support and software > deployment. > > What can I do to mitigate this situation? I feel split down the middle > i.e. people should be able to work with what they're comfortable in > order to get the best from them and I want our IT Service organisation > to be business enablers but we're resource constrained and the fewer > platforms we deal with the better service we can offer our users i.e. > faster provision, better software & hardware support and repairs, etc. > > Cheers > > -Martin > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 9 16:44:54 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0A0irAe001283 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:44:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A0irBB001282 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0A0ipAd001273 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:44:51 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:44:45 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop Thread-Index: AcYVbfuPtFv995suT1m3KuBTf/WvwQAEAGiA From: "Dave Hilton" To: "Martin Jackson" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k0A0iqAd001277 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Martin, I've had that same fight here; and with pretty much the same ideologies and brands you have to deal with. Our current battle plan is: IBM ThinkPads to those who need XP on a portable platform, Dell for the users' desktops, and if you want a MAC - go buy your own and we'll give you an IP address and a shot of tequila. The Server Complex and the Compute Farm are totally different stories - there we buy based on horse power / price. Personally, I miss my Latitude. It NEVER failed me, and it left dents in the floor :) Hilton From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 9 20:33:14 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0A4XDAe005413 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 20:33:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A4XDmL005412 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 20:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0A4XAAe005381 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 20:33:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k0A4WqWR036706; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 23:32:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <43C2DFBE.7020403@guyver.demon.co.uk> References: <43C2DFBE.7020403@guyver.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:30:44 -0600 To: Martin Jackson From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 10:12 PM +0000 2006-01-09, Martin Jackson wrote: > I've been accused of abusing using my power by the Exec's by trying to > enforce the corporate policy of Dell and maybe their right, I attempted > to enforce the policy in order to minimise the support burden and > standardise on a supportable base for hardware support and software > deployment. You're an admin. You don't really have the right to enforce anything, certainly not to the executives of the company. It is their policy, and you are trying to implement it, but when push comes to shove they are still your bosses, or at least very important customers who can make life hell for your boss and your boss can make your life hell. As an admin, you have a great deal of responsibility, but very little authority. This is life. You're going to have to learn to deal with it, or seriously consider changing careers. Beyond that, I don't really have much useful that I can say on the subject. However, I do like the advice you've already been given by Mark Ramm and Dave Hilton. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 9 21:44:19 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0A5iIAe007374 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A5iH4K007373 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:44:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0A5iEAd007366 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:44:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from guyver.demon.co.uk ([62.49.6.63]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1EwCIl-0003wV-9W for sage-members@sage.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 05:44:12 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.home [127.0.0.1]) by guyver.demon.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C7C1B1F1C for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 05:44:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from guyver.demon.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (jabberwock.home [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12624-02 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 05:44:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [192.168.1.101]) by guyver.demon.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8CC1B1F13 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 05:44:02 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43C3496E.9010101@guyver.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 05:43:10 +0000 From: Martin Jackson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop References: <43C2DFBE.7020403@guyver.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0602-1, 09/01/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at guyver.demon.co.uk Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Thanks for everyone's comments, thoses and a semi-reasonable nights sleep have helped me focus on what I need to do, escalate and educate, anything for an easier life! Cheers -Martin Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:12 PM +0000 2006-01-09, Martin Jackson wrote: > >> I've been accused of abusing using my power by the Exec's by trying to >> enforce the corporate policy of Dell and maybe their right, I attempted >> to enforce the policy in order to minimise the support burden and >> standardise on a supportable base for hardware support and software >> deployment. > > > You're an admin. You don't really have the right to enforce > anything, certainly not to the executives of the company. It is their > policy, and you are trying to implement it, but when push comes to > shove they are still your bosses, or at least very important customers > who can make life hell for your boss and your boss can make your life > hell. > > As an admin, you have a great deal of responsibility, but very > little authority. This is life. You're going to have to learn to > deal with it, or seriously consider changing careers. > > > Beyond that, I don't really have much useful that I can say on the > subject. > > However, I do like the advice you've already been given by Mark > Ramm and Dave Hilton. > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 10 06:14:32 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0AEEVAe018957 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:14:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AEEVV4018956 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:14:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.utdallas.edu (smtp1.utdallas.edu [129.110.10.12]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0AEESAd018946 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:14:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.101] (utdvpn084055.utdallas.edu [129.110.84.55]) by smtp1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 154DD388F81; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:14:23 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <43C3C13D.2030209@utdallas.edu> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:14:21 -0600 From: Amos User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Macintosh/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darrell Fuhriman Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sun IdM? References: <43BD8AB6.4060502@utdallas.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -- Darrell Fuhriman said the following on 1/5/06 3:54 PM: > > And another University joins the fray. :) I don't know if a generic EDU IdM list would be of benefit. > We're currently in the middle of a pretty large implementation of > Sun IdM -- connecting SCT Banner, Luminis, our Enterprise LDAP, > and AD. > > I think there are quite a few Universities around that are in the > same place. > > What sort of questions did you have? Well, in terms of the packaged IdM tool from Sun, things like: how flexible is it when it comes to customizing local business logic for account aging? We currently employ a gradual "aging" of account access privs until the account is ultimately removed. I imagine the Sun product offers a means to customize that? Though the mechanism is a bit klugy, we also do some resource provisioning based upon account sponsor. This includes the location of the home directory, whether it be on the central IT filesystems or on a departmental filesystem that might exist. I have concerns that this sort of resource provisioning might be difficult if not impossible in a "canned" solution like that from Sun. > I would say that Identity Management is *hard*. :) That's why I'm not terribly interested in doing it over even if it is less than perfect. However, there are other risks with in-house developed stuff. Amos From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 10 09:49:36 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0AHnZAe023419 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:49:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AHnZsm023418 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:49:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from pickwick.garnix.org (pickwick.garnix.org [207.173.201.43]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0AHnUAd023402 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:49:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pickwick.garnix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16C0A1BF58; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:49:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pickwick.garnix.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (pickwick.garnix.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 03268-05; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:49:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by pickwick.garnix.org (Postfix, from userid 8046) id CABD71BF48; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:49:18 -0800 (PST) To: Amos Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sun IdM? References: <43BD8AB6.4060502@utdallas.edu> <43C3C13D.2030209@utdallas.edu> From: Darrell Fuhriman Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:49:18 -0800 In-Reply-To: <43C3C13D.2030209@utdallas.edu> (Amos's message of "Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:14:21 -0600") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at garnix.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Amos writes: > I don't know if a generic EDU IdM list would be of benefit. It might not be a bad idea. I know there are other schools doing it, and I think there should be more co-ordination than there is. Especially for writing a Banner adapter. > Well, in terms of the packaged IdM tool from Sun, things like: how > flexible is it when it comes to customizing local business logic for It's actually quite flexible there. It has a workflow/business process tool that seems decent, although I come into the project more from the sysadmin side than the developer side. > a departmental filesystem that might exist. I have concerns that this > sort of resource provisioning might be difficult if not impossible in > a "canned" solution like that from Sun. Yes you can do that. The solution is not "canned" -- it's not Office. Just like Banner, or SAP, or Peoplesoft, etc, you can't do a whole lot out of the box, you need to assign developers to it to make it fit your environment. > That's why I'm not terribly interested in doing it over even if it is > less than perfect. However, there are other risks with in-house > developed stuff. I don't really see it as an option. The future *has* to be better integrated, and IdM is the only way to do that right now. Apropos SAGE: The Unix world is *lousy* at enterprise wide integration -- unless we (or our vendors) can pull our heads out, we're going to get eaten alive. Darrell From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 10 12:44:09 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0AKi8Ae028283 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:44:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AKi85O028282 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:44:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from watcher.puryear-it.com ([207.191.45.108]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0AKi4Ad028277 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:44:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from it1 (localhost.puryear-it.local [127.0.0.1]) by watcher.puryear-it.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0767584453 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:42:09 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <00a601c61626$be30df00$6201a8c0@wec.wnet> From: "Dustin Puryear" To: Subject: [SAGE] CA ADMIN for IdM - Was: Sun IdM Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:39:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Seeing the thread on Sun IdM I thought I'd ask about the general perception of CA ADMIN? I work with ADMIN a lot these days for a specific client and I like it. We can build cusotmized connectors between it and just about anything. However, it's not necessarily the easiest system to implement (but when is IdM easy?), esp. since we work in a widely mixed environment (AD, LDAP, "big name" apps, etc). Thoughts on CA ADMIN from others? --- Puryear Information Technology, LLC Baton Rouge, LA * 225-706-8414 http://www.puryear-it.com Author of "Best Practices for Managing Linux and UNIX Servers" Download your free copy: http://www.puryear-it.com/bestpractices.htm From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 10 14:57:19 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0AMvIAe001525 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:57:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AMvIjJ001524 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:57:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0AMvHAe001518 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:57:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AMvGIO001517 for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:57:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from artnickel.net (artnickel.net [65.18.209.106]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0AMkpAd001288 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:46:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from halfdime.is-a-geek.com ([67.182.112.219]) by artnickel.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id k0AMXM317351 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:33:22 -0500 Received: (qmail 17253 invoked by uid 500); 10 Jan 2006 14:46:52 -0800 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:46:52 -0800 From: Robert Nickel To: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] [Fwd: [IRR] Create an e-annoyance, go to jail] Message-ID: <20060110224652.GD4389@homebase.hsd1.ca.comcast.net))> References: <43C2B52F.4090908@virtual.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LvqQYVlCa9hUs6nS" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43C2B52F.4090908@virtual.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --LvqQYVlCa9hUs6nS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2006.01.09 11:10:39 -0800, Strata R. Chalup wrote: >=20 > This looks like 10 pounds of trouble in a 5 pound box. Just a first impression, but I'm having a hard time seeing the policing and provability of said offense in all but the most simple cases. It sounds like a great way to frame someone to be harrassed and fined/jailed by the feds though. I agree with DH. I want to watch this on play out with my local congress person. --Robert --LvqQYVlCa9hUs6nS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDxDlc1JFu/Epysk8RAk2kAKCVTFo1plVqMyO7osIm5Qo8JehNYgCg9X/E ld/wQCi/aPANYoSXodlaOpI= =sZf5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LvqQYVlCa9hUs6nS-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 10 14:57:55 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0AMvrAe001576 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:57:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AMvrJn001575 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:57:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0AMvqAe001570 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:57:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AMvpr2001569 for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:57:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from artnickel.net (artnickel.net [65.18.209.106]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0AMuhAd001490 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:56:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from halfdime.is-a-geek.com ([67.182.112.219]) by artnickel.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id k0AMhFa19372 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:43:15 -0500 Received: (qmail 14511 invoked by uid 500); 10 Jan 2006 14:56:44 -0800 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:56:44 -0800 From: Robert Nickel To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop Message-ID: <20060110225644.GE4389@homebase.hsd1.ca.comcast.net))> References: <43C2DFBE.7020403@guyver.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="crFW2+mWrWMXeHsA" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --crFW2+mWrWMXeHsA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2006.01.09 22:30:44 -0600, Brad Knowles wrote: > You're an admin. You don't really have the right to enforce=20 > anything, certainly not to the executives of the company. It is=20 > their policy, and you are trying to implement it, but when push comes=20 > to shove they are still your bosses, or at least very important=20 > customers who can make life hell for your boss and your boss can make=20 > your life hell. >=20 > As an admin, you have a great deal of responsibility, but very=20 > little authority. This is life. You're going to have to learn to=20 > deal with it, or seriously consider changing careers. >=20 >=20 > Beyond that, I don't really have much useful that I can say on the=20 > subject. "Life sucks. You die. Management parties. Get over it." Crap Brad! You having a bad day? You could at least rub a little salt in that gash! :) > However, I do like the advice you've already been given by Mark=20 > Ramm and Dave Hilton. Agreed. The situation is not really a workable one and trying to fight both sides of the argument is going to end up lose-lose. Beyond what's been said by Mark and Dave, this may also be a good time to a= sk if you can upstaff one more person to handle the additional complexity. Although not always attractive, if the extra body can get you back to a nice place, then you can use their spare cycles to push out project work. --Robert --crFW2+mWrWMXeHsA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDxDus1JFu/Epysk8RAk5WAKDdz5N7ZbEadfnOnecfAOB+bULVQQCgra/M 0u3oDVwpFnw5LN0CjPkfAEs= =oq87 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --crFW2+mWrWMXeHsA-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 10 15:31:17 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0ANVHAe002880 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:31:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ANVHPk002879 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:31:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net (imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.59.66]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0ANVEAd002865 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:31:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ibm59aec.bellsouth.net ([68.220.89.205]) by imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net with ESMTP id <20060110233108.HNTH7984.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net@ibm59aec.bellsouth.net> for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:31:08 -0500 Received: from sri.com ([68.220.89.205]) by ibm59aec.bellsouth.net with ESMTP id <20060110233108.NFUN269.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@sri.com> for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:31:08 -0500 To: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] [Fwd: [IRR] Create an e-annoyance, go to jail] In-Reply-To: Message from Robert Nickel of "Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:46:52 PST." <0ISW00KAVFZBQW@mercury.esd.sri.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:31:07 -0500 From: Ted Nolan Message-Id: <20060110233108.NFUN269.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@sri.com> Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In message <0ISW00KAVFZBQW@mercury.esd.sri.com>you write: > >On 2006.01.09 11:10:39 -0800, Strata R. Chalup wrote: >> >> This looks like 10 pounds of trouble in a 5 pound box. > >Just a first impression, but I'm having a hard time seeing the policing and >provability of said offense in all but the most simple cases. > >It sounds like a great way to frame someone to be harrassed and fined/jailed >by the feds though. > >I agree with DH. I want to watch this on play out with my local congress >person. > >--Robert Seems to be a false alarm. From lawblogger Orin Kerr at the Volokh Conspiracy: http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2006_01_08-2006_01_14.shtml#1136873535 A Skeptical Look at "Create an E-annoyance, Go to Jail": Declan McCullagh has penned a column that is custom-designed to race around the blogosphere. It begins: Annoying someone via the Internet is now a federal crime. It's no joke. Last Thursday, President Bush signed into law a prohibition on posting annoying Web messages or sending annoying e-mail messages without disclosing your true identity. In other words, it's OK to flame someone on a mailing list or in a blog as long as you do it under your real name. Thank Congress for small favors, I guess. This ridiculous prohibition, which would likely imperil much of Usenet, is buried in the so-called Violence Against Women and Department of Justice Reauthorization Act. Criminal penalties include stiff fines and two years in prison. "The use of the word 'annoy' is particularly problematic," says Marv Johnson, legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union. "What's annoying to one person may not be annoying to someone else." This is just the perfect blogosphere story, isn't it? It combines threats to bloggers with government incompetence and Big Brother, all wrapped up and tied togther with a little bow. Unsurprisingly, a lot of bloggers are taking the bait. Skeptical readers will be shocked, shocked to know that the truth is quite different. First, a little background. The new law amends 47 U.S.C. 223 , the telecommunications harassment statute that goes back to the Communications Act of 1934. For a long time, Section 223 has had a provision prohibiting anonymous harassing speech using a telephone. 47 U.S.C. 223(a)(1)(C) states that [whoever] makes a telephone call or utilizes a telecommunications device, whether or not conversation or communication ensues, without disclosing his identity and with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass any person at the called number or who receives the communications . . . shall be [punished]. Seems pretty broad, doesn't it? Well, there's a hook. It turns out that the statute can only be used when prohibiting the speech would not violate the First Amendment. If speech is protected by the First Amendment, the statute is unconstitutional as applied and the indictment must be dismissed. An example of this is United States v. Popa, 187 F.3d 672 (D.C. Cir. 1999). In Popa , the defendant called the U.S. Attorney for D.C on the telephone several times, and each time would hurl insults at the U.S. Attorney without identifying himself. He was charged under 47 U.S.C. 223(a)(1)(C), and raised a First Amendment defense. Writing for a unanimous panel, Judge Ginsburg reversed the conviction: punishing the speech violated the Supreme Court's First Amendment test in United States v. O'Brien, 391 U.S. 367 (1968), he reasoned, such that the statute was unconstitutional as applied to those facts. Under cases like Popa , 47 U.S.C. 223(a)(1)(C) is broad on its face but narrow in practice. That is, the text looks really broad, but prosecutors know that they can't bring a prosecution unless doing so would comply with the Supreme Court's First Amendment cases. That brings us to the new law. The new law simply expands the old law so that it applies to the Internet as well as the telephone network. It does this by taking the old definition of "telecommunications device" from 47 U.S.C. 223(h), which used to be telephone-specific, and expanding it in this context to include "any device or software that can be used to originate telecommunications or other types of communications that are transmitted, in whole or in part, by the Internet." Now I suppose you can criticize Congress for being lazy. They haven't rewritten the old 1934 statute in light of the modern First Amendment, and that has resulted in a criminal statute that looks much broader than it actually is. The new law expands the preexisting law by amending the definition of "telecommunications device," which maintains the same gap between the law on the books and the law in practice. The formulation is a bit awkward. But the key point for our purposes is that the law is not the "ridiculous" provision Declan imagines. It looks funny if you don't know the relevant caselaw, but in practice it simply takes the telephone harassment statute we've had for decades and applies it to the Internet. UPDATE: Cal Lanier takes a look, and concludes that this is just about making sure the telephone harassment law applies to VOIP. (http://www.footballfansfortruth.us/archives/001318.html) Ted From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 10 16:07:17 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0B07GAe003830 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:07:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0B07GmB003829 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:07:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mdev.river.com (yampa.river.com [206.168.112.68]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0B07EAd003822 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:07:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (v13.river.com [206.168.117.188]) by mdev.river.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A91B023F46; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:07:13 -0700 (MST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <43C2DFBE.7020403@guyver.demon.co.uk> References: <43C2DFBE.7020403@guyver.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:05:39 -0700 To: Martin Jackson From: "Richard Johnson" Subject: Re: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 22:12 +0000 on 2006-01-09, Martin Jackson wrote: > I've been accused of abusing using my power by the Exec's by trying to > enforce the corporate policy of Dell and maybe their right, I attempted > to enforce the policy in order to minimise the support burden and > standardise on a supportable base for hardware support and software > deployment. > > What can I do to mitigate this situation? Say yes, and attach a realistic support cost. It will necessarily involve a modest increase in your team's budget, perhaps even including additional staff, to keep the users working as efficiently. But that cost may well be worth the benefit to those who sign the checks. Most times I've done that (I had somehow ended up IS director, etc.), it's been well received by CXXs. They usually elected to pay the higher cost for the increased flexibility and the hope of improved user morale + productivity. However, you should probably be prepared for them to not pay the higher cost while telling the users that you're to blame for alternative "cooler" laptops being forbidden... To put it in some perspective, my experience back in System 7 & 8 days on Macs was one support person required per 80 Macs. Meanwhile, we needed to staff a 2 person help desk for only 40 MS Windows NT systems in order to keep the grumbling to the same level. Those numbers were unwelcome news to the new vulture-funded overload of Vice Presidents, so they naturally forbade purchases of new Macs, and boosted the help desk staff. ;-) Richard From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 11 15:14:39 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0BNEcAe008046 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:14:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0BNEbvL008045 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:14:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.22]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0BNEYAd008030 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:14:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.100] (zn.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.30]) by m1.imap-partners.net (MOS 3.7.1-GA) with ESMTP id AEG74707 (AUTH strata@imap-partners.net) for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:14:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43C59159.4080909@virtual.net> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:14:33 -0800 From: "Strata R. Chalup" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] [Fwd: [IRR] Create an e-annoyance, go to jail] References: <20060110233108.NFUN269.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@sri.com> In-Reply-To: <20060110233108.NFUN269.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@sri.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Excellent-- thanks, Ted! Ted Nolan wrote: > Seems to be a false alarm. From lawblogger Orin Kerr at the Volokh Conspiracy: > > http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2006_01_08-2006_01_14.shtml#1136873535 > > A Skeptical Look at "Create an E-annoyance, Go to Jail": > ... -- ======================================================================== Strata R Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net Virtual.Net Inc http://www.virtual.net/ ** Strategic IT for the Growing Enterprise ** ========================================================================= From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 11 15:48:08 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0BNm7Ae013258 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:48:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0BNm7ve013256 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:48:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.22]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0BNm4Ad013248 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:48:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.100] (zn.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.30]) by m1.imap-partners.net (MOS 3.7.1-GA) with ESMTP id AEG75447 (AUTH strata@imap-partners.net) for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:48:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43C59933.1040205@virtual.net> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:48:03 -0800 From: "Strata R. Chalup" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop References: <43C2DFBE.7020403@guyver.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Brad Knowles wrote: > You're an admin. You don't really have the right to enforce > anything, certainly not to the executives of the company. ... > As an admin, you have a great deal of responsibility, but very > little authority. This is life. You're going to have to learn to deal > with it, or seriously consider changing careers. ... I don't think encouraging people to consider themselves a soulless cog in a machine is very appropriate or professional. A large part of what is wrong with many corporations is that they discourage any initiative, individual responsibility, or questioning of dysfunctional idiocy. Enforcing company policy, at the personal employee level, is a responsibility of every company or organization employee. For an employee such as a sysadmin, the de-facto job description includes attempting to enforce compliance with technical policies set by the company. It is definitely the case that where people are routinely violating a company policy, the policy needs to be revisited at a business planning level. However ignoring it simply sets the stage for selective enforcement and is an example of uninspired 'coasting' on an employee's behalf. I don't suggest that people ignore political reality in their company, but I also believe that playing doormat is not the right response either. In the case of the corporate Dell policy, someone in Finance or Purchasing ought to have been failing to approve those purchase orders based on policy or on recommendations from the IS Dep't. But you'd be shocked at how many companies essentially run amok when it comes to purchasing. The advice given to document the increased costs is, imho, the soundest advice. Some other creative solutions involve imposing a 'support tax' on purchases of non-policy-approved equipment or requiring the purchasers to also purchase extended vendor support. Calculating the costs to the company is usually the best method to fight these things. It's not just support-- look at buyback/upgrade policies, as well as stocking spares and the cost of spares. Doesn't take too many spare laptop batteries or docking stations to add some significant numbers, especially when their column is marked 'additional costs solely due to non-standard hardware' and the like. SRC -- ======================================================================== Strata R Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net Virtual.Net Inc http://www.virtual.net/ ** Strategic IT for the Growing Enterprise ** ========================================================================= From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 12 08:04:34 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0CG4XAe019847 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:04:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0CG4Xk0019846 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:04:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from nproxy.gmail.com (nproxy.gmail.com [64.233.182.193]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0CG4SAd019840 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by nproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id k26so293045nfc for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:04:27 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=Ef6Uq+UoxR49h95GQdE1Msmx8rIledNnYtE4DwBDocUX6yJrJhupPZMhMa9Ws3hAlcoY0c4wFAdk/43UGrb6ZIiCSXh7h5AZsACraK+zaqY42zBS/Xn4fU6wnPYgpzQV93ZIyWcm9rFqUeS2eOhHJUcomHeo27f0EIA7JD8ZtpQ= Received: by 10.48.248.14 with SMTP id v14mr147463nfh; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:04:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.48.14.5 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:04:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:04:25 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs_Couto?= To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] HP-UX & Solaris using the same LDAP directory? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k0CG4WAd019842 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Quick technical question... anybody has successfully used the same LDAP directory for "naming services" and authentication on Solaris & HP-UX simultaneously? I'm looking at the documentation from both and I dont see any prior reason for problems, but success stories would really put my mind at ease. Mainly cause both store configuration profiles on the directory. ------------------------------ Jesús Couto F. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 12 09:12:09 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0CHC8Ae021912 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:12:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0CHC8cE021911 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:12:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from web50915.mail.yahoo.com (web50915.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.94]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id k0CHC6Ad021897 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:12:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 477 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2006 17:12:01 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Dp6mSVpORe5Yffp5f6ME2RPQtWBhdYn61tmu8giyOjXMxOiDR9dMEDlwjgjWfE12P6TOq8w0jJDG0z2hgrqc92ufY052vzlBXh9lWRSVZxJQll5GgopLwv6jdw4dQQwn5MLRnkaCZtJB4qlOoemO/KhfJ5u/vA2HEOVoh7qTd94= ; Message-ID: <20060112171201.475.qmail@web50915.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.202.133.5] by web50915.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:12:00 PST Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:12:00 -0800 (PST) From: sarikonda sreenath Subject: Re: [SAGE] HP-UX & Solaris using the same LDAP directory? To: sage-members@sage.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Could you please add comments for Solaris + Linux too? Thanks, Sreenath. --- Jesús Couto wrote: > Hi, > > Quick technical question... anybody has > successfully used the same > LDAP directory for "naming services" and > authentication on Solaris & > HP-UX simultaneously? I'm looking at the > documentation from both and I > dont see any prior reason for problems, but > success stories would > really put my mind at ease. Mainly cause both > store configuration > profiles on the directory. > > ------------------------------ > > Jesús Couto F. > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 12 12:27:11 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0CKRBAe027427 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:27:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0CKRAG4027426 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:27:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0CKR9Ae027421 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:27:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0CKR9pu027420 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:27:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:27:09 -0800 From: Jim Lawson To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] recent sage-members spam Message-ID: <20060112122709.A27393@voyager.usenix.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We apologize for the recent sage-members spam. We've changed the outbound email alias to be slightly more obtuse. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 13 03:05:17 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DB5HAe023082 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 03:05:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DB5HtI023081 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 03:05:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DB5EAe023076 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 03:05:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k0DB5BLw034649; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:05:12 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <43C59933.1040205@virtual.net> References: <43C2DFBE.7020403@guyver.demon.co.uk> <43C59933.1040205@virtual.net> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:05:03 +0100 To: "Strata R. Chalup" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 3:48 PM -0800 2006-01-11, Strata R. Chalup wrote: > I don't think encouraging people to consider themselves a soulless cog in > a machine is very appropriate or professional. You may not like what I said, but that doesn't make it any less accurate. You may be in a position of great power wherever you work, but 99.99% of the rest of the community is not. Like it or not, anyone working in this business will tend to have a lot more responsibility to make sure that certain things happen certain ways, but a lot less authority to actually do it -- especially when it comes to interfacing with management or other powerful users. I don't think it's unprofessional to recognize or point out that fact, and I think it's highly unprofessional of you to claim otherwise. I am greatly offended that you would even consider leveling that charge at me. My wife has been group General Counsel and Secretary to the Board of the worlds largest firm handling settlement and clearing of European stocks and bonds. Hundreds of billions of dollars (and Euros) pass through their hands on a daily basis. The company has a strict no-smoking policy inside the building, save the smokers lounge. Yet the Chairman of the Board insists on smoking his cigars wherever he damn well pleases, and neither the CEO nor my wife were in a position to try to make him quit. Cajole and wheedle as they might, they can't fire his ass, so there is not a damn thing they can do to stop him. My wife has been probably one of the most powerful female lawyers in the country, quite possibly all of Europe, and she was powerless to do this one single little thing, despite the fact that she hates cigar smoke more than just about anything else in the world. That's something she just can't change, and she's had to learn to accept that fact. Fundamentally, if you cannot fire the person (or get them fired) for violating company policy, then you're unlikely to be able to force them to stop violating that company policy. > Enforcing company policy, at the personal employee level, is a > responsibility of every company or organization employee. For an > employee such as a sysadmin, the de-facto job description includes > attempting to enforce compliance with technical policies set by the > company. The best that any employee can ever reasonably hope to do is to make sure that their own actions are in accordance with the company policies, that all the people who work for them (directly or indirectly) likewise follow the company policies, and that you do what you can to encourage everyone else to do the same. But that "encouragement" may or may not get you very far. You have to change the things you can, accept the things you can't, and you really need to be able to tell the difference between them. I've tilted at more than a few windmills, including some of the biggest in the world -- the Department of Defense and AOL included. Trust me, it doesn't work. And any self-satisfaction you might get probably won't last very long. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 13 03:17:26 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DBHPAe023554 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 03:17:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DBHPa4023553 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 03:17:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from slick.sigje.org (rdns.222.240.218.216.fre.communitycolo.net [216.218.240.222]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DBHLAe023548 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 03:17:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from sigje (helo=localhost) by slick.sigje.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1ExMvp-0003xJ-BJ for sage-members@sage.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 03:17:21 -0800 Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 03:17:20 -0800 (PST) From: Jennifer Davis To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <43C2DFBE.7020403@guyver.demon.co.uk> <43C59933.1040205@virtual.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >> I don't think encouraging people to consider themselves a soulless cog in >> a machine is very appropriate or professional. > > You may not like what I said, but that doesn't make it any less > accurate. Disagree. It's a way of looking at the glass. Half empty, half full, enough, not enough.. whatever the case may be. Too many people don't even take the time to really figure out what the glass is and the contents of said glass and whether it really is to their taste or not. I can be frustrated by the processes under which I work, but if I start thinking that I'm a soulless cog in a machine, that is when the work becomes too stressful, unhealthy, and unsatisfying. Sure there are issues to overcome, challenges to be faced on a personal and professional capacity at my job, but it's all a matter of perspective. I effect change by first deciding on what I expect from my job, and then strive to act in a consistent manner towards that expectation. Then I discuss the options with my coworkers/management/upper management. I'm not anyone special.. but I can accomplish great things as can anyone in any aspect of their life. Jennifer From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 13 07:44:40 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DFidAe027401 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:44:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DFidCB027400 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:44:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from amber.ccs.neu.edu (amber.ccs.neu.edu [129.10.116.51]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DFiaAe027394 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:44:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from c-65-96-187-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net ([65.96.187.69] helo=[192.168.0.3]) by amber.ccs.neu.edu with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.50) id 1ExR6P-0006hj-In for sage-members@sage.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:44:34 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: References: <43C2DFBE.7020403@guyver.demon.co.uk> <43C59933.1040205@virtual.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <34C993EE-F234-4827-BFC2-9232D8278057@ccs.neu.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David Blank-Edelman Subject: Re: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:44:32 -0500 To: sage-members@sage.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Jan 13, 2006, at 6:05 AM, Brad Knowles wrote: > You may be in a position of great power wherever you work, but > 99.99% of the rest of the community is not. Like it or not, anyone > working in this business will tend to have a lot more > responsibility to make sure that certain things happen certain > ways, but a lot less authority to actually do it -- especially when > it comes to interfacing with management or other powerful users. Ok, so here's my mostly "disagree" (to quote Jennifer) response: Power, authority, and influence are three very different things. In the example of your wife (who I think we all deserve to meet at some point, since she's come up before), I'd assert she doesn't have the authority to make the CEO stop smoking, but with careful and clever manipulation she'd be able to get him to stop smoking around her. I'm almost loathe to point people at this, because it is a really evil book in the wrong hands (perhaps even in the right hands), but _The 48 Laws of Power_ by Robert Greene is a book full of information on how one can gain or wield power even without having authority. There are a whole set of other books with info like this, just see Amazon's recommendations when you look the book up. Now, just so I'm clear about this: I bring this citation up in this context because I trust the people in our community to act in a moral and ethical fashion. The information in these books make it extremely easy to act in unethical or immoral ways. If you do decide to read them, please be careful. There are other clearly more moral/ethical ways to create change in situations where you are apparently powerless. See {insert social justice or labor rights movement here} for inspiration. Short summary: I'd like to believe we are very rarely powerless, even when it appears that way on the surface. Sure, it may take different or more clever techniques to wield this power, but those things are not beyond our reach. -- dNb From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 13 09:07:54 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DH7sAe028843 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:07:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DH7sxF028842 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:07:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DH7pAe028828 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:07:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k0DH7mAm060536; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:07:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <43C2DFBE.7020403@guyver.demon.co.uk> <43C59933.1040205@virtual.net> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:07:42 +0100 To: Jennifer Davis From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 3:17 AM -0800 2006-01-13, Jennifer Davis wrote: >>> I don't think encouraging people to consider themselves a soulless cog in >>> a machine is very appropriate or professional. >> >> You may not like what I said, but that doesn't make it any less accurate. > > Disagree. It's a way of looking at the glass. Half empty, half full, > enough, not enough.. whatever the case may be. What you're describing are matters of perception. But matters of perception don't change facts. The simple fact is that most of us are unlikely to be working in a place where we've got much in the way of authority to actually enforce company policies on upper management, although we are likely to be in positions where we are responsible for ensuring that company policies are followed by all users -- upper management included. How you perceive that fact is a totally different matter. Yes, we may be able to cajole, wheedle, inform, influence, or do a whole lot of other things to/with upper management, to try to convince them to adhere to the same company policies that everyone else has to. But that's still completely different from having the authority to outright enforce the policies. You have to know the boundaries between your circle of concern and your sphere of influence. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 13 09:36:02 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DHZxAe029660 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:36:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DHZwq3029659 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.oregonstate.edu (smtp3.oregonstate.edu [128.193.0.12]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DHZtAd029649 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:35:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.oregonstate.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5655610486F for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:35:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.oregonstate.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp3 [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00756-08 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:35:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu (nws-ex1.nws.oregonstate.edu [128.193.7.73]) by smtp3.oregonstate.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B054104867 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:35:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from NWS-EXCH2.nws.oregonstate.edu ([128.193.7.74]) by NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:35:35 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:35:35 -0800 Message-ID: <7B4268E5ACB878429B58D4BE5B780E83506FEC@NWS-EXCH2.nws.oregonstate.edu> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop Thread-Index: AcYYZOiO5nSkz/pcQ5iM93Dv0p0sLQAAGAjQ From: "Brock, Anthony - NET" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jan 2006 17:35:35.0786 (UTC) FILETIME=[C2F03CA0:01C61867] X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at oregonstate.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[none] X-Spam-Level: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k0DHZvAd029652 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > On Friday, January 13, 2006 at 9:08 AM, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 3:17 AM -0800 2006-01-13, Jennifer Davis wrote: > >>> I don't think encouraging people to consider themselves > a soulless cog in > >>> a machine is very appropriate or professional. > >> > >> You may not like what I said, but that doesn't make it > any less accurate. > > > > Disagree. It's a way of looking at the glass. Half > empty, half full, > > enough, not enough.. whatever the case may be. > > What you're describing are matters of perception. But > matters of > perception don't change facts. Agreed. However, our perception of events often changes how we deal with it. The correct attitude and approach at work can directly impact the influence you wield on coworkers, supervisors and clients. > Yes, we may be able to cajole, wheedle, inform, > influence, or do > a whole lot of other things to/with upper management, to try to > convince them to adhere to the same company policies that everyone > else has to. > > But that's still completely different from having the authority > to outright enforce the policies. > > You have to know the boundaries between your circle of concern > and your sphere of influence. I agree that we rarely have the direct authority to impose anything. However, my experience has show that this usually isn't needed. In fact, most of the times I've "had the authority and enforced it" resulted in my loss of the authority. Very few policies should initially be enforced with "authority". Most should be encouraged through education, reminders and a more subtle approach. I've learned to only step up to wielding "authority" when this fails, which also happens to be when most people will agree that I've been more than reasonable. Anything else breeds resentment, resistance and (eventually) a coup. Ultimately, our jobs are less about enforcing or wielding explicit authority than developing the influence to encourage decisions that comply with our needs (which is a more powerful and subtle form of authority). Just my two cents. Tony From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 13 10:17:20 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DIHIAe000666 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:17:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DIHI1g000665 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:17:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from slick.sigje.org (rdns.222.240.218.216.fre.communitycolo.net [216.218.240.222]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DIHGAe000660 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:17:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from sigje (helo=localhost) by slick.sigje.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1ExTUC-0005N6-FQ for sage-members@sage.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:17:16 -0800 Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:17:16 -0800 (PST) From: Jennifer Davis To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop In-Reply-To: <7B4268E5ACB878429B58D4BE5B780E83506FEC@NWS-EXCH2.nws.oregonstate.edu> Message-ID: References: <7B4268E5ACB878429B58D4BE5B780E83506FEC@NWS-EXCH2.nws.oregonstate.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >> What you're describing are matters of perception. But >> matters of >> perception don't change facts. > > Agreed. However, our perception of events often changes how we deal with > it. The correct attitude and approach at work can directly impact the > influence you wield on coworkers, supervisors and clients. Completely agreed Tony! Too many people don't realize the power they have, and instead assume the shackles that they have imposed on themselves. I'm a sysadmin.. I don't need to be an enforcer if I can get people to follow the rules because it makes the best sense for them. > Ultimately, our jobs are less about enforcing or wielding explicit > authority than developing the influence to encourage decisions that > comply with our needs (which is a more powerful and subtle form of > authority). Just my two cents. Much more eloquently said :) Jennifer From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 13 12:28:34 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DKSXAe003158 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:28:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DKSXFc003157 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:28:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.icecube.wisc.edu (ice.icecube.wisc.edu [128.104.255.119]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DKSVAd003149 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:28:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.icecube.wisc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2383886B22 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:28:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.icecube.wisc.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ice.icecube.wisc.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 30792-04 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:28:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from [172.16.223.165] (unknown [172.16.223.165]) by mail.icecube.wisc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 765A386B1C for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:28:24 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <43C80D68.5070600@chem.wisc.edu> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:28:24 -0600 From: Steve Barnet User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7-1.4.1 (X11/20050929) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop References: <7B4268E5ACB878429B58D4BE5B780E83506FEC@NWS-EXCH2.nws.oregonstate.edu> In-Reply-To: <7B4268E5ACB878429B58D4BE5B780E83506FEC@NWS-EXCH2.nws.oregonstate.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at icecube.wisc.edu Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Brock, Anthony - NET wrote: > I agree that we rarely have the direct authority to impose anything. > However, my experience has show that this usually isn't needed. In fact, > most of the times I've "had the authority and enforced it" resulted in > my loss of the authority. > > Very few policies should initially be enforced with "authority". Most > should be encouraged through education, reminders and a more subtle > approach. I've learned to only step up to wielding "authority" when this > fails, which also happens to be when most people will agree that I've > been more than reasonable. Anything else breeds resentment, resistance > and (eventually) a coup. > > Ultimately, our jobs are less about enforcing or wielding explicit > authority than developing the influence to encourage decisions that > comply with our needs (which is a more powerful and subtle form of > authority). Just my two cents. A wise friend of mine likes to point out that there are two types of authority: 1) Vested authority - the authority you have because of your title. 2) Comptence authority - the authority you have because of your ability. Competence authority can be difficult to obtain, and fragile to maintain as it's really a matter of earned trust, and a solid track record. It takes time to build it, and can be lost with a keystroke if you're not careful. Ideally, you operate predominantly using your competence authority. Vested authority is useful at those times in which the path is not clear, and a decision must be made, or in emergency situations where time is of the essence. In those cases, people will usually not resent your use of vested authority as they can see the need. As someone has pointed out to the original poster, keeping track of associated costs may be the most productive way to proceed. It may well be that they are willing to bear additional costs, or that they decide it's not worth it. Either way, cost is one thing C?O types deal with regularly. Of course, if they simply attempt to deduct the costs from your sleep budget, well then you are faced with a choice. :-) Best, ---Steve From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 13 13:18:56 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DLItAe004091 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:18:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DLItR7004090 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:18:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DLIrAd004076 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:18:54 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:18:46 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop Thread-Index: AcYYgMWICqV7vR0fRRS/OTYUjHlHEgABbfiQ From: "Dave Hilton" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k0DLIsAd004086 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk After reading all the posts in this thread, I have come to conclusion that I am in better shape (job wise) than many of my colleagues. This is not a boast, it is a sobering fact. I may as well stop my bitching, I've got it good here. Yikes. I need to keep this in mind the next time I feel like throwing in the towel and hitting the streets. Gruddy aka Hilton From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 13 13:55:11 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DLtBAe006671 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:55:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DLtBFp006670 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:55:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from jas.peak.org (jas.peak.org [69.59.196.137]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DLt0Ae006656 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:55:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from sechrest (helo=jas.peak.org) by jas.peak.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.44) id 1ExWsr-0004ql-95 for sage-members@sage.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:54:57 -0800 To: Cc: ; Subject: Re: [SAGE] 12 habits of IT -> Was: Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:28:24 CST. <43C80D68.5070600@chem.wisc.edu> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:54:57 -0800 From: John Sechrest Message-Id: X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: sechrest@jas.peak.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on jas.peak.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I just had this review come over the OLDAILY list. I suspect it is good fodder for this discussion. Brian L. Hawkins - Twelve Habits of Successful IT Professionals - EDUCAUSE Review http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/edurss02.cgi?rd=41293 ------------------------------------------------------------- From the most recent issue http://www.educause.edu/apps/er/erm06/erm061.asp of EDUCAUSE Review, this article offers a reasonable - though not perfect - list of factors promoting success for IT professionals (of course, the definition of 'success' here is implicit). Things roll along fine until we hit principle number 5, where the article takes a turn, equating 'success' with (it seems to me) obedience. They "understand the limits of their advocacy," the author cautions. They are careful when speaking publicly. They don't whine. It feels as though the article transmogrified from a dispassionate overview to something personal part way through. Me, I think there is great value in a long passionate whine. Does that make me "not a team player"? Maybe. But it is better to speak out than to suffer in silence. Comment: http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/page.cgi?post=33253 ----- John Sechrest . Helping people use . computers and the Internet . more effectively . . Internet: sechrest@peak.org . . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 13 14:38:21 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DMcLAe007738 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:38:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DMcLXb007736 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:38:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DMcIAd007716 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:38:19 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] 12 habits of IT -> Was: Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:38:12 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] 12 habits of IT -> Was: Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop Thread-Index: AcYYjNShKmGoB5zjR0a6B4cWBU7qPQABOiaA From: "Dave Hilton" To: "John Sechrest" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k0DMcKAd007732 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk John, I'm suspicious about that Twelve Habits article. There's no mention whatsoever of recreational drugs nor pyrotechnics. :) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 13 15:47:34 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DNlXAe009329 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:47:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DNlXM0009328 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:47:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.ufl.edu (smtp01.osg.ufl.edu [128.227.74.149]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DNlUAe009321 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:47:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (ip24-250-226-128.ga.at.cox.net [24.250.226.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.ufl.edu (8.13.4/8.13.4/2.5.1) with ESMTP id k0DNl7D73690642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:47:23 -0500 Message-ID: <43C83BFB.4000906@cookie.org> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:47:07 -0500 From: Allan West User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Macintosh/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hilton CC: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: hits=-0.001, required=5, tests=BAYES_44 X-UFL-Spam-Status: hits=-0.001, required=5, tests=BAYES_44 X-Scanned-By: CNS Open Systems Group (http://open-systems.ufl.edu/services/smtp-relay/) X-UFL-Scanned-By: CNS Open Systems Group (http://open-systems.ufl.edu/services/smtp-relay/) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Dave Hilton wrote: > After reading all the posts in this thread, I have come to conclusion > that I am in better shape (job wise) than many of my colleagues. This > is not a boast, it is a sobering fact. I may as well stop my bitching, > I've got it good here. Yikes. I need to keep this in mind the next > time I feel like throwing in the towel and hitting the streets. > > Gruddy > > aka Hilton Dave, Don't feel bad, I've been in the same space myself once or twice. My jobs tend to be carefully selected for environment and co-workers, rather than pay or advancement, so I've never been in a really bad job. I have thought I was in a bad spot a couple of times, but it turned out to just be a slump that I worked myself out of after hearing a few real horror stories from my support groups in meat space and on the 'net. I seem to remember someone saying that perception is reality. It helps to hear about folks whose jobs really suck, because it shows me what a great job I really have. My thanks and my sympathy go to everyone who has shared their sorrows with us. If you ever want to get into low-paying state work, let me know. >8^) Allan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 13 15:53:21 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DNrKAe009517 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:53:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DNrKQk009514 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:53:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DNrHAd009507 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:53:17 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] 12 habits of IT -> Was: Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:53:11 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] 12 habits of IT -> Was: Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop Thread-Index: AcYYmYSmOiIahMGmQWi2fxu5YELxHAAAr8pg From: "Dave Hilton" To: Cc: "John Sechrest" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k0DNrJAd009510 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Richard says: "Yah, but those are basics that everyone already knows about - like breathing and Twinkie ingestion." Gruddy days: #13 - A successful I.T. Professional makes no assumptions......... From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 13 16:04:22 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0E04LAe010188 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:04:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0E04Lsu010187 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:04:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0E04JAe010173 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:04:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0E04JjP010172 for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:04:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0DNVpAd008953 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:31:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Jan 2006 15:31:46 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.99,367,1131350400"; d="scan'208"; a="391650921:sNHT31398528" Received: from [10.25.88.2] (sjc-rac-vpn1.cisco.com [10.25.88.2]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with SMTP id k0DNVgjt026322; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:31:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43C83859.2030202@chycoski.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:31:37 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski Reply-To: rskiadmin@chycoski.com User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hilton CC: John Sechrest , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] 12 habits of IT -> Was: Help! Multiple platforms in a Dell Shop References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 rep=12% Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Yah, but those are basics that everyone already knows about - like breathing and Twinkie ingestion. (:-) - Richard Dave Hilton wrote: > John, > > I'm suspicious about that Twelve Habits article. There's no mention > whatsoever of recreational drugs nor pyrotechnics. > > :) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Jan 15 13:09:17 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0FL9GAe013901 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:09:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0FL9G56013900 for sage-members-0utGoign; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:09:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from lax-gate1.raytheon.com (lax-gate1.raytheon.com [199.46.200.230]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0FL9BAd013891 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:09:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmoutw00.directory.ray.com (dmoutw00.directory.ray.com [147.25.146.122]) by lax-gate1.raytheon.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0FL90KV024113 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmsmtpw00.directory.ray.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dmoutw00.directory.ray.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k0FL90jX020019 sender obejas@exile.esn.us.ray.com for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 21:09:00 GMT Received: from exile.esn.us.ray.com (exile.esn.us.ray.com [147.17.205.19]) by dmsmtpw00.directory.ray.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k0FL8w4v016946 sender obejas@exile.esn.us.ray.com for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 21:08:58 GMT Received: from exile.esn.us.ray.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by exile.esn.us.ray.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id k0FL8l4c000437 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:08:47 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by exile.esn.us.ray.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id k0FL8ld0000435 for sage-members@sage.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:08:47 -0800 From: Mario Obejas To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Southern California Linux Expo Feb 11-12 Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:08:47 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200601151308.47515.obejas@exile.esn.us.ray.com> Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Posted on Lopsa discuss list 4 days ago. What: Inexpensive and popular regional conference for Linux and Open Source devotees, now in its 4th year. Includes Talks, Tutorials, vendor and non-profit group exhibitions. When: Feb 11-12, 2006, 9-5:30pm Cost: $50 general admission (purchased before Jan 16th) $25 with Student or User Group discount code Where: Los Angeles Airport Radisson (note change from Westin Hotel) URL: http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/ Sponsors: include IBM, Google, Uvursa, Ticketmaster, Usenix Early bird sales end tonight (Jan 15th) but even at the $65 max price, it's a dirt cheap price for a two day conference with speakers, tutorials, and exhibitors. Students get in for $35 after today. The organizers indicated today that all speaker positions are filled, and almost all exhibitor slots are filled as well. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 18 15:56:27 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0INuRAe029601 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:56:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0INuRN0029600 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:56:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.msc.com (smtp.msc.com [12.96.21.5]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0INuKAe029581 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:56:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from pcjfn.msc.com (pcjfn.msc.com [192.246.38.111]) by smtp.msc.com (8.13.5/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k0INuD4d090093 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:56:13 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jfn@msc.com) Received: from pcjfn.msc.com (localhost.msc.com [127.0.0.1]) by pcjfn.msc.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0INvnPA001433 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:57:50 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jfn@pcjfn.msc.com) Received: from localhost (jfn@localhost) by pcjfn.msc.com (8.13.4/8.13.3/Submit) with ESMTP id k0INvnKx001430 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:57:49 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jfn@pcjfn.msc.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:57:49 -0600 (CST) From: Joseph Noonan Reply-To: Joseph Noonan To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Google Mini Appliance? Message-ID: <20060118174713.T93259@pcjfn.msc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Spam-Score: -100 () USER_IN_WHITELIST X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 2647374 - d36a17aac50f (trained as non-spam) X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 12.96.21.5 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone have any experience with or knowledge of this thing: The people in MARCOM want to install one of these as part of our (much needed) web site overhaul. I've read what I could on the site, basically everything but watched the movie (I refuse to watch movies for product information). Frankly, if it were anybody but Google I would already have said 'no' we are not buying any 'appliance' that doesn't even have information about the way it works as part of its product information. But it is Google, so it probably works well for searching, so I'll dig a bit more. Has anybody used one? Did you like it? Did your users? How does it work? Is is some sort of proxy, through which clients go on the way to your content? Is it some sort of server that the web designers puts links to on the page? Or something else? Thanks, -- Joseph F. Noonan Rigaku Americas Corporation joseph.noonan@rigaku.com (desk) 281-362-2300 x117 (cell) 281-433-2731 (fax) 281-364-3644 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 18 17:58:01 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0J1w1Ae008994 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0J1w1fd008989 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from eastrmmtao05.cox.net (eastrmmtao05.cox.net [68.230.240.34]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0J1vuAd008918 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (really [24.250.226.128]) by eastrmmtao05.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with ESMTP id <20060119015758.VEDP14098.eastrmmtao05.cox.net@[192.168.1.100]>; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:57:58 -0500 Message-ID: <43CEF21D.2040800@cookie.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:57:49 -0500 From: Allan West User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Macintosh/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Noonan CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Google Mini Appliance? References: <20060118174713.T93259@pcjfn.msc.com> In-Reply-To: <20060118174713.T93259@pcjfn.msc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Joseph Noonan wrote: > > Does anyone have any experience with or knowledge of this thing: > > > > The people in MARCOM want to install one of these as part of our (much > needed) web site overhaul. I've read what I could on the site, > basically everything but watched the movie (I refuse to watch movies for > product information). Frankly, if it were anybody but Google I would > already have said 'no' we are not buying any 'appliance' that doesn't > even have information about the way it works as part of its product > information. But it is Google, so it probably works well for searching, > so I'll dig a bit more. > > Has anybody used one? > > Did you like it? Did your users? > > How does it work? Is is some sort of proxy, through which clients go on > the way to your content? Is it some sort of server that the web > designers puts links to on the page? Or something else? > > Thanks, My institution has a pretty yellow 1-U box which searches the whole campus' web and is very handy. It's a full-fledged server, and basically acts as a locally-focused google engine. It traverses our campus sites and updates its database frequently, since it doesn't have to search the whole internet. It obeys the robots.txt files on our servers, and the campus authorities also gave it a non-local IP address to prevent it from accessing anything restricted to local viewing. I'm not familiar with our contract, what the model name is (we've had it for years) or whether it feeds up the food chain to Google to update the universal search results. I know the folks who maintain the campus search are pretty happy with it, and it's a snap to use it for just a sub-site by making a search URL with a "site" tag, eg.: ---begin form snippet---

---end form snippet--- I suspect that you'd like it more than building a search mechanism from scratch, especially if your organization has multiple servers, or documents managed by divergent groups. Oh, I found some details on our server by putting "google" into our search site. The announcement of the google appliance's installation is here: Allan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 18 18:05:09 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0J257Ae010947 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:05:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0J257lq010946 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:05:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0J253Ad010921 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:05:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from psyche.theory14.net ([68.235.173.45]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with ESMTP id <20060119020441.EGQD8657.mta10.adelphia.net@psyche.theory14.net>; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:04:41 -0500 Received: from goblin.theory14.net (goblin.theory14.net [192.168.1.3]) by psyche.theory14.net (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k0J24f37025098; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:04:41 -0500 Received: from goblin.theory14.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by goblin.theory14.net (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0J24ft2031863; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:04:41 -0500 Received: (from csgordon@localhost) by goblin.theory14.net (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id k0J24bdH031862; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:04:37 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: goblin.theory14.net: csgordon set sender to sage@linux-dr.net using -f Subject: Re: [SAGE] Google Mini Appliance? From: Chris Gordon To: Joseph Noonan Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <20060118174713.T93259@pcjfn.msc.com> References: <20060118174713.T93259@pcjfn.msc.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:04:36 -0500 Message-Id: <1137636276.31415.10.camel@goblin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 (2.2.3-2.fc4) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2006-01-18 at 17:57 -0600, Joseph Noonan wrote: > Does anyone have any experience with or knowledge of this thing: > > > > The people in MARCOM want to install one of these as part of our > (much needed) web site overhaul. I've read what I could on the > site, basically everything but watched the movie (I refuse to > watch movies for product information). Frankly, if it were > anybody but Google I would already have said 'no' we are not > buying any 'appliance' that doesn't even have information about > the way it works as part of its product information. But it is > Google, so it probably works well for searching, so I'll dig a > bit more. > > Has anybody used one? > > Did you like it? Did your users? > > How does it work? Is is some sort of proxy, through which clients > go on the way to your content? Is it some sort of server that > the web designers puts links to on the page? Or something else? I've worked with one of their search appliances (mid 2003 IIRC) before and would assume this works somewhat similarly (though obviously searching different types of content). The hardest part of using it was putting it in the rack (and it was just a simple 1U box). It appeared to run Linux underneath, but they just exposed a web interface for configuration and management. When first booted, it defaulted to a specific IP address. You connect tot that and set the relevant network information for your installation. Then you filled in which URLs you wanted it to crawl, the time to start the crawls and the frequency of crawls and it went to work. The results where provided via a different web interface that users could hit to search -- your own little google for your content. I think (would make a lot of sense) that you could use the google API to really embed the search into an existing website. This was by far the easiest web content search system to setup and run. Hope that helps. Chris From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Jan 21 17:16:01 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0M1G1Ae018953 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:16:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0M1G0uL018947 for sage-members-0utGoign; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:16:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.192]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0M1FvAd018939 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:15:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so690567wri for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:15:56 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=M0vZ8k4qE/FwXj5qoK+rMGbqb6y1buoixRyEschbHSIqyt6yUwefPwtn5HxSejcgqKMn8uVQl+Yk2aHbDXXo0IIciyI4sOn5US/Dd76TaQNB8/ETwSddrLGFeMMVoXf6MM41fZUhu3ZERgyW8QBpYXdy8Qz7KStBtYfw5BD3n+I= Received: by 10.64.250.3 with SMTP id x3mr2313583qbh; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.218.1 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:15:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f258c6a0601211715r7d4e93bfhe49c93e97d2537bc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:15:56 -0800 From: Clay Ye To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] can't set commitpeding on sun X4100 Integrated Lights Out Manager (ILOM) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k0M1FxAd018942 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I try to setup a static IP address of ILOM on a Sun X4100 server, according to the document, http://www.sun.com/products-n-solutions/hardware/docs/html/819-1160-11/sp_initial_setup.html#pgfId-1006634, the commands are as the following, x4100 comes with preinstalled Solaris 10, after the ip address is setup, I can ssh to it and continue with the installation: cd /SP/network set pendingipaddress=129.144.82.26 set pendingipnetmask=255.255.255.0 set pendingipgateway=129.144.82.254 set commitpending=true I connect the "net management" port to the switch, and set the ip address, gateway and netmask, but when I try to set commitpending, it said "invalid command syntax"(please see the following) , I have checked the document, anyone know the possible reason?, -> cd /SP/network /SP/network -> set commitpending=true set: Invalid command syntax Usage: set [target] =value> [=...] -> show /SP/network /SP/network Targets: Properties: commitpending = (Cannot show property) ipaddress = (none) ipdiscovery = (none) ipgateway = (none) ipnetmask = (none) macaddress = (none) pendingipaddress = 10.0.0.10 pendingipdiscovery = static pendingipgateway = 10.0.0.1 pendingipnetmask = 255.255.255.0 Commands: cd set show -> cd / -> set /SP/network pendingipnetmask=255.255.255.0 Set 'pendingipnetmask' to '255.255.255.0' -> set /SP/network commitpending = true set: Invalid command syntax Usage: set [target] =value> [=...] Thanks, Clay Ye From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Jan 21 18:33:49 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0M2XnAe020548 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 18:33:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0M2Xntk020547 for sage-members-0utGoign; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 18:33:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [70.85.16.91]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0M2XbAd020537 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 18:33:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id 2CCC61AE44; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 21:33:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 21:33:35 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Clay Ye Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] can't set commitpeding on sun X4100 Integrated Lights Out Manager (ILOM) Message-ID: <20060122023335.GA15989@catbert.org> References: <1f258c6a0601211715r7d4e93bfhe49c93e97d2537bc@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1f258c6a0601211715r7d4e93bfhe49c93e97d2537bc@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hot Diggety! Clay Ye was rumored to have written: > > -> set /SP/network commitpending = true > set: Invalid command syntax > Usage: set [target] =value> [=...] I'm not sure it matters, but try: set /SP/network commitpending=true At risk of losing your settings, you might want to consider making ILOM do a factory reset of the settings in case the properties data has gotten somewhat corrupt, if the step above didn't help any. You may also want to double check you have the latest firmware applied. With the V20z, it was split into a BIOS firmware image and a SP firmware image. Don't know about the X4100. But if there are any bugs with the SP or ILOM, firmware images tend to fix these kind of things. -Dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Jan 21 19:08:02 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0M381Ae021150 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 19:08:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0M381XY021149 for sage-members-0utGoign; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 19:08:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [70.85.16.91]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0M37wAd021144 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 19:08:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id 8FCBB1A8AF; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 22:07:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 22:07:54 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Clay Ye Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] can't set commitpeding on sun X4100 Integrated Lights Out Manager (ILOM) Message-ID: <20060122030754.GA17862@catbert.org> References: <1f258c6a0601211715r7d4e93bfhe49c93e97d2537bc@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1f258c6a0601211715r7d4e93bfhe49c93e97d2537bc@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hot Diggety! Clay Ye was rumored to have written: > I try to setup a static IP address of ILOM on a Sun X4100 server, > according to the document, > http://www.sun.com/products-n-solutions/hardware/docs/html/819-1160-11/sp_initial_setup.html#pgfId-1006634, I see you also posted to comp.unix.solaris. :) I think this is the same problem as: http://sunsolve.sun.com/searchproxy/document.do?assetkey=1-1-6246501-1 You'll have to ask someone at Sun to look at the ticket notes and tell you what the fix or workaround is. (This is because of a long story involving Sun tickets... new tickets now has public details, but old tickets are private because of improper way of entering data in the past. I've seen the full explanation for the ticket notes issue from Scott Howard @ Sun Microsystems Australia.) -Dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 23 12:37:09 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0NKb8Ae002142 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:37:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0NKb80B002141 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.nmt.edu (mailhost.NMT.EDU [129.138.4.52]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0NKb3Ae002123 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:37:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F9622B2FC for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 13:36:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from mailhost.nmt.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mailhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20863-02; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 13:36:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (effelant.nmt.edu [129.138.88.154]) by mailhost.nmt.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED6E522B2E9; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 13:36:48 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <43D53E56.6060201@nmt.edu> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 13:36:38 -0700 From: Ruth Milner Reply-To: rmilner@nmt.edu User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] reliable Windows backup/recovery software Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.3.1 (20050509) (RHEL AS) at nmt.edu Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk [Note: this is for personal use, not in an enterprise environment, although many of the same issues apply.] I am trying to find a reliable program to do disk image backups (and recovery :-) ) under Windows XP. Besides reliability, I really only have three capabilities that I care about: 1. Make a complete image of the system disk contents (preferably only the used space, not the entire surface) into a *file* on a separate hard drive. 2. The choice of browsing the image to restore selected files, or to restore the entire image. 3. Support CDs as bootable rescue media. I don't mind if the program has to boot itself into DOS (or whatever) to image the system disk correctly. Frankly, I'd have more confidence in the integrity of the backup if it does. I have been using PowerQuest DriveImage 2002 on my older XP system. It can handle #1 & #2, but that version only supports rescue floppies, and the newer PC doesn't have a floppy drive. So I went hunting for a newer alternative. The results were frightening. Not only do just a small fraction of the available programs (regardless of whether they're intended for personal or enterprise use) support disk images, but the user reviews for *all* products included large numbers of people reporting serious problems with them. E.g. two out of three images wouldn't verify correctly; or, even when it had, the image didn't subsequently restore properly. Quite a few of these were written by people who appeared to be clueful (let's face it, most of the clueless don't do backups :-( ) and none had anything good to say about any of the vendors' support. Perhaps I'm naive, but I just don't understand how such a critical function is being left to such a sorry-looking bunch of prospects. Now, I do realize that people are far more likely to report negative experiences than positive ones, so it's entirely possible that most people never have any problems with them. But given that most people also never have occasion to see whether the complete restore works, I find the absolute number of reported problems appalling. So I figured I'd ask here. :-) Do you have experience with such software under Windows, and if so, have you found a program with these capabilities that has *proven* reliable for you? I'd be willing to sacrifice the imaging capability if it's the only realistic way to get high reliability on restores, though it's not clear to me that there's a technical reason why that should actually be necessary. Suggestions would be appreciated. Please reply to me and I will summarize to the list around the end of next week. Thank you! Ruth From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 23 19:00:47 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0O30kAe012387 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0O30kVP012386 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:00:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from vega.opentrend.net (vega.opentrend.net [65.39.131.100]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0O30iAd012379 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:00:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vega.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F376580102F for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:56:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from vega.opentrend.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (vega [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32159-08 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:56:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimosa.opentrend.net (unknown [192.168.120.11]) by vega.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 453535800F0F for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:56:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by mimosa.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9067E1C00251; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:00:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mimosa.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AEA41C0024E for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:00:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:00:41 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Brockway To: SAGE Members List Subject: Re: [SAGE] reliable Windows backup/recovery software In-Reply-To: <43D53E56.6060201@nmt.edu> Message-ID: References: <43D53E56.6060201@nmt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at opentrend.net Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Ruth Milner wrote: > I am trying to find a reliable program to do disk image backups (and > recovery :-) ) under Windows XP. Besides reliability, I really only > have three capabilities that I care about: > > 1. Make a complete image of the system disk contents (preferably > only the used space, not the entire surface) into a *file* on > a separate hard drive. > 2. The choice of browsing the image to restore selected files, or > to restore the entire image. > 3. Support CDs as bootable rescue media. > > I don't mind if the program has to boot itself into DOS (or whatever) > to image the system disk correctly. Frankly, I'd have more confidence > in the integrity of the backup if it does. I'm a *nix guy. No doubt about it. I've successfully backed up (and fully recovered) MS-Windows systems by having the system boot up in Linux off a small partition and backup the NTFS/VFAT/FAT filesystem while it is mounted read-only under Linux. I generally use dd for this as it can slap the filesystem back to a partition without the need for any additional tools (eg, no need to make a new filesystem). The disadvantage of using dd is that you'll get a filesystem back the same size as the one you backed up. A resize tool is needed to change the size. Also, compressing a dd'ed filesystem archive is very desirable. This is all really straight forward to setup & manage. Any Linux person should be able to do this in their sleep. Recovery is as simple as booting off a Linux live cdrom (eg, Knoppix) and restoring the filesystem (after making a partition if it is a new disk). Now with MS-Windows if you go around changing a lot of the hardware you have a different situation. So if the entire system is destroyed it gets more interesting. > vendors' support. Perhaps I'm naive, but I just don't understand > how such a critical function is being left to such a sorry-looking > bunch of prospects. At the risk of starting a flame war, overall I'm very under-impressed by most commercial backup solutions, especially when it comes to disaster recovery (DR). As far as I'm concerned a backup/DR system needs to be as simple as possible. I'm either going to be doing a DR at 3am when I'm tired or at 3pm with people looking over my shoulder. Neither situation is conducive to good concentration so DR systems need to be simple. In my experience commercial backup systems are complex with many bells and whistles. Exactly what I don't need at 3am. I accept others may see it differently but this is how I feel. Above I described the way we do backup systems for MS-Windows. The system we use for *nix boxes is very similar. We use a custom backup script for most clients. Our DR system has been tested in the field and shown to work. That's the ultimate test. The more of a no-brainer that DR can be the better. Just because DR should be a no-brainer doesn't mean you don't need good docs. The DR system needs to be documented so that a suitable qualified sysadmin who has no knowledge of your site can do the DR with minimal problems. > Do you have experience with such software under Windows, and if so, > have you found a program with these capabilities that has *proven* > reliable for you? I'd be willing to sacrifice the imaging capability > if it's the only realistic way to get high reliability on restores, Short of backup corruption a restore should just work. If this is not so there is something fundamentally wrong with the backup/DR system or software. > Suggestions would be appreciated. Please reply to me and I will > summarize to the list around the end of next week. Thank you! I've decided to make mine public. I hope you don't mind. Perhaps I'm in a chatty mood :) /me dons his asbestos underwear. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support@opentrend.net Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 24 17:06:14 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0P16EAe023319 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:06:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0P16DAN023312 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:06:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from slick.sigje.org (rdns.222.240.218.216.fre.communitycolo.net [216.218.240.222]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0P16CAe023300 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:06:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from sigje (helo=localhost) by slick.sigje.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1F1Z6t-0003TJ-1Q; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:06:07 -0800 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:06:07 -0800 (PST) From: Jennifer Davis To: sage-members@sage.org, discuss@lopsa.org Subject: [SAGE] BayLISA General Meeting - February 16, 2006 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Please join us for Pizza and Beer (soda or water if you don't drink alcohol :) after the meeting! Pizza and Beer sponsored by Mirapoint. When: February 16, 2006, 7:30-9:45pm Location: Garage 1, Apple Campus, 4 Infinite Loop Cupertino CA 95014 Topic: Info Integrity: Global Policy and Compliance for Secure Messaging Topic: Network/Application Troubleshooting methodology with case studies and a focus on Voice over IP Directions: http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=4%20Infinite%20Loop&csz=Cupertino,+CA+9501 4&country=us For complete abstracts, view the RSVP description. RSVP HERE: http://www.mollyguard.com/event/23347834 Please note, there are two RSVP types. Choose the "Meeting Only" if you plan to attend just the meeting. Choose "PIZZA&BEER BASH RSVP" if you are planning on attending the meeting and the p&b bash afterwards. other upcoming events, Tom Limoncelli's Time Management on February 23! Google Site Reliability from Jay Sutaria of Google on January 26, 2006. For people not in the area, recordings will be made available on video.google.com. Additionally, if you run a group in other areas and you are interested in a specific talk let me know and I can pass on your details to the speaker to see if they would be interested, or know anyone that would be interested in presenting to your group! Jennifer From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 24 17:49:26 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0P1nPAe027191 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:49:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0P1nPFB027190 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:49:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0P1nNAe027184 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:49:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0P1nN5D027183 for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:49:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from uproxy.gmail.com (uproxy.gmail.com [66.249.92.195]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0P0BeAd011577 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:11:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by uproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c2so64226ugf for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:11:34 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=Rq/6uh0C2fq8fdZQrA/85vInE4Ffr3sUXP6C6h3Kd9BpA/rr5JEGWtDBhLOBfrgNrcAUNdq5v030oNUexia5siooWgyKaaM48H9smJyKi7u4AJbGI5Z5LolfAArl57ic1e5u6yhkbGL1tKkzQOgJJOedJIdzUcH9uEZIBxMhCxs= Received: by 10.67.30.10 with SMTP id h10mr35784ugj; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:11:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.249.13 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:11:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:11:34 -0800 From: Cyrus Vesuna To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Storage consultants MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k0P0BfAd011579 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I'm looking for a directory/recommendation of storage consultants in the Bay area, we are looking to setup a NAS/SAN and tape solution and we'd like to get some expertise in this area. Thanks Cyrus From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 24 22:08:22 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0P68LAe006261 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:08:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0P68LB7006260 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:08:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from fed1rmmtao08.cox.net (fed1rmmtao08.cox.net [68.230.241.31]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0P68IAd006250 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:08:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (really [68.7.13.105]) by fed1rmmtao08.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with ESMTP id <20060125060553.HTOX26964.fed1rmmtao08.cox.net@[192.168.1.3]> for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 01:05:53 -0500 Message-ID: <43D715CA.9030705@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:08:10 -0800 From: Mike Noble User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6-7.2.20060mdk (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sage Members Subject: [SAGE] Linux and network in hotels Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I have come up with a problem that happens with Linux and hotels. Some hotels want you to connect to a website to get internet access. While this works great with Windows (blaa) it does not work with Linux. I am hoping that some of you have found a solution to this problem and can tell me how to make it work. Thanks, Mike From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 24 22:19:00 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0P6J0Ae006649 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:19:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0P6IxW4006648 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:19:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from compata.com (compata.com [216.237.5.34]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0P6IwAd006643 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from aopen.compata.com (aopen.compata.com [192.168.44.9]) by compata.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id k0P6IwaQ026033 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:18:58 -0800 Received: from localhost by aopen.compata.com (Linux 2.6) with ESMTP (8.13.4/8.13.4) id k0P6IwMQ004882 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:18:58 -0800 Message-Id: <200601250618.k0P6IwMQ004882@aopen.compata.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.2 01/07/2005 with nmh-1.1 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Linux and network in hotels In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:08:10 PST." <43D715CA.9030705@gmail.com> References: <43D715CA.9030705@gmail.com> From: Dave Close Reply-To: sage-members@usenix.org X-message-flag: Did you know MS Outlook is evil? X-Face: $?&5f7w4GjUJOb-[FmngebA}V`5Dv)QEdHg|d%mytVRm]'o}*{J6:PP%(LfN LmOcb#>"^wDF*|ZzuS??S*vLH[.miV(I have come up with a problem that happens with Linux and hotels. Some >hotels want you to connect to a website to get internet access. While >this works great with Windows (blaa) it does not work with Linux. I am >hoping that some of you have found a solution to this problem and can >tell me how to make it work. Since I've done it in many hotels, perhaps you need to tell us just exactly what problem you've encountered. -- Dave Close, Compata, Costa Mesa CA "'Always' and 'never' are two dave@compata.com, +1 714 434 7359 words you should always remember dhclose@alumni.caltech.edu never to use." --Wendell Johnson From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 24 22:24:25 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0P6OKAe006963 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:24:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0P6OKHH006960 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:24:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0P6O6Ad006954 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:24:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id r28so34971nza for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:24:05 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=NRwlO0CYDljRgFae9VFkN7QS63mVoZELM9a7AlN8UW8L+Ib6iIpBUGiyIl9Jyos17eRAn7q+fqAoMpIiP4WsvwI0t1onPIiKLX3MhqYAlWvaVbK7kcFStK9oAUiBlyf2dF/cbn743U01Yx0kDYkXNtWuhPJ8REbqSpnTmPSukNg= Received: by 10.64.220.7 with SMTP id s7mr45747qbg; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:24:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.53.9 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:24:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 01:24:04 -0500 From: Rodrick Brown To: Mike Noble Subject: Re: [SAGE] Linux and network in hotels Cc: Sage Members In-Reply-To: <43D715CA.9030705@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <43D715CA.9030705@gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k0P6OJAd006956 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Get a Mac :-) On 1/25/06, Mike Noble wrote: > I have come up with a problem that happens with Linux and hotels. Some > hotels want you to connect to a website to get internet access. While > this works great with Windows (blaa) it does not work with Linux. I am > hoping that some of you have found a solution to this problem and can > tell me how to make it work. > > Thanks, > Mike > -- Rodrick R. Brown Senior IT Consultant http://www.rodrickbrown.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 24 22:46:15 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0P6kFAe007499 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:46:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0P6kFNu007498 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:46:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net (imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.59.65]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0P6kCAd007492 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:46:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ibm57aec.bellsouth.net ([68.220.84.214]) by imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net with ESMTP id <20060125064600.MJJM28878.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net@ibm57aec.bellsouth.net> for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 01:46:00 -0500 Received: from sri.com ([68.220.84.214]) by ibm57aec.bellsouth.net with ESMTP id <20060125064600.SMXE8357.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net@sri.com> for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 01:46:00 -0500 To: Sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Linux and network in hotels In-Reply-To: Message from Mike Noble of "Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:08:10 PST." <43D715CA.9030705@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 01:46:00 -0500 From: Ted Nolan Message-Id: <20060125064600.SMXE8357.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net@sri.com> Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In message <43D715CA.9030705@gmail.com>you write: >I have come up with a problem that happens with Linux and hotels. Some >hotels want you to connect to a website to get internet access. While >this works great with Windows (blaa) it does not work with Linux. I am >hoping that some of you have found a solution to this problem and can >tell me how to make it work. > >Thanks, >Mike I run FreeBSD, so this may not apply, but I expect Linux resolvers are the same: The only problem I've ever had was at a Holiday Inn Express where after DHCP, you had to contact a specific web page, and at that point the only DNS server available to you uses TCP rather than UDP! I had to use nslookup and do a "set vc" to get the IP. After that, I either plugged it into /etc/hosts, or used it directly in the URL, I forget which. Ted From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 25 09:34:44 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0PHYhAe006403 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:34:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0PHYhgi006402 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:34:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0PHYfAd006396 for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:34:41 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] Storage consultants Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:34:35 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Storage consultants Thread-Index: AcYhUfkSRBlDkhkNQEaYlR3Eg06RcwAg45Fw From: "Dave Hilton" To: "Cyrus Vesuna" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k0PHYgAd006398 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Tell Dennis I sent you. Dave Hilton Network Administrator entelos(r) Foster City, CA Clarity in The Age of Plausible Reality Dennis Ferrara Vice President, Strategic Accounts 408.734.3339 office 408.206.0565 cell 408.734.3343 fax dennis@gocmt.com Visit our new website at www.gocmt.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 26 12:31:12 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0QKVCAe022984 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QKVBpR022983 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:31:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from slick.sigje.org (rdns.222.240.218.216.fre.communitycolo.net [216.218.240.222]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0QKV9Ae022977 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:31:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from sigje (helo=localhost) by slick.sigje.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1F2Dls-0001qz-VV for sage-members@sage.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:31:09 -0800 Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:31:08 -0800 (PST) From: Jennifer Davis To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] INCOSE Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Anyone ever heard of INCOSE, International Council on System Engineering? Jennifer From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 26 13:58:50 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0QLwoAe025836 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:58:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QLwnjU025834 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:58:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from lax-gate7.raytheon.com (lax-gate7.raytheon.com [199.46.200.238]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0QLwiAd025823 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:58:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmoutw00.directory.ray.com (dmoutw00.directory.ray.com [147.25.146.122]) by lax-gate7.raytheon.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0QLwgSu008921 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:58:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmsmtpw00.directory.ray.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dmoutw00.directory.ray.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k0QLweno000206 sender obejas@exile.esn.us.ray.com for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:58:42 GMT Received: from exile.esn.us.ray.com (exile.esn.us.ray.com [147.17.205.19]) by dmsmtpw00.directory.ray.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k0QLwdIa026102 sender obejas@exile.esn.us.ray.com for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:58:39 GMT Received: from exile.esn.us.ray.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by exile.esn.us.ray.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id k0QLwJ4c027543 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:58:19 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by exile.esn.us.ray.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id k0QLwJnb027541 for sage-members@sage.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:58:19 -0800 From: Mario Obejas To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] INCOSE Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:58:18 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200601261358.18974.obejas@exile.esn.us.ray.com> Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thursday 26 January 2006 12:31, Jennifer Davis wrote: > Anyone ever heard of INCOSE, International Council on System > Engineering? > > Jennifer I'll keep my asnwer equally brief: Yes. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 26 14:12:07 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0QMC7Ae026570 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:12:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QMC79R026569 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:12:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.85]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0QMC3Ad026563 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:12:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from guyver.demon.co.uk ([62.49.6.63]) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1F2FE2-000Ni5-IF for sage-members@sage.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:04:18 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.home [127.0.0.1]) by guyver.demon.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4C331B1840 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:12:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from guyver.demon.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (jabberwock.home [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00466-01 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:11:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [192.168.1.101]) by guyver.demon.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id E83941B183F for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:11:57 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43D94926.3060508@guyver.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:11:50 +0000 From: Martin Jackson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] IP KVM's and PDU which give you the most bang for you buck Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0604-3, 26/01/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at guyver.demon.co.uk Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hey all, I'm buying some IP Keyboard, Video and Mouse units and IP Power distributions units to go in all my remote sites so we can perform some lights out operations safely, I was wondering what type of IP KVM's and PDU you've all used and can recommend that provide the good value for money. Cheers -Martin From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 26 14:14:21 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0QMELAe026801 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:14:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QMELwX026800 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:14:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0QMEFAd026743 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:14:16 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] INCOSE Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:14:09 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] INCOSE Thread-Index: AcYixDreOFg2WnGAT4K43yRlDcDXVAAAYhtg From: "Dave Hilton" To: "Mario Obejas" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k0QMEKAd026796 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Yes Member #8549 Dave Hilton Network Administrator entelos(r) Foster City, CA Clarity in The Age of Plausible Reality From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 26 14:28:01 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0QMS1Ae027493 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QMS0WG027492 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:28:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxsf03.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf03.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.203]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0QMRvAd027480 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:27:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net (mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.149]) by mxsf03.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k0QMRo8l004005 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:27:50 -0500 Received: from 66-189-53-50.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com (HELO jfsnew) (66.189.53.50) by mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 26 Jan 2006 17:27:50 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.01,221,1136178000"; d="scan'208"; a="2060281712:sNHT20073518" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17369.19685.924637.520266@smtp.charter.net> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:27:49 -0500 From: "John Stoffel" To: Martin Jackson Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] IP KVM's and PDU which give you the most bang for you buck In-Reply-To: <43D94926.3060508@guyver.demon.co.uk> References: <43D94926.3060508@guyver.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.4.1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Martin> I'm buying some IP Keyboard, Video and Mouse units and IP Martin> Power distributions units to go in all my remote sites so we Martin> can perform some lights out operations safely, I was wondering Martin> what type of IP KVM's and PDU you've all used and can Martin> recommend that provide the good value for money. Stay away from Avocent if you can! They're DSview software (version 2 I admit, version 3 might be better) is not really great. While I haven't bought them, I really like the idea of the Kaveman VNC/KVM box: http://www.digitalv6.com/ I just really dislike having to run a special client to access my KVM. I'm trying to get my current work to buy the one port version so we can just toss them infront of our existing Avocent KVMs. John From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 26 15:37:00 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0QNb0Ae029503 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:37:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QNb06t029502 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:37:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4.smtp.messagingengine.com (out4.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0QNavAd029491 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:36:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from frontend1.internal (mysql-sessions.internal [10.202.2.149]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70483D3328B for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:36:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.151]) by frontend1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:36:45 -0500 X-Sasl-enc: gGp78ZX1QRWk5aFPlLZkDGYc9Sm6d1ZtIbrwHZxXEg9B 1138318604 Received: from localhost.localdomain (cpe-066-057-044-115.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.44.115]) by frontend2.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C393571503 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:36:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [SAGE] INCOSE From: "Stephen P. Schaefer" Reply-To: sschaefer@acm.org To: sage-members@sage.org In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:36:19 -0500 Message-Id: <1138318580.3081.125.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 (2.2.3-2.fc4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk So of course my curiosity was piqued, and I visited their web site. Most of their description of systems engineering seemed applicable to what computer system administrators do. It appears that we would constitute a particular specialty. However, on their page http://www.incose.org/practice/fellowsconsensus.aspx was this: Commentary by Brian Mar [***Stephen's comments interspersed like so****] Most systems engineers accept the following basic core concepts: 1. Understand the whole problem before you try to solve it [****UH OH. Computer system administrators rarely have the resources to do that. Indeed, understanding the problem is often the majority of the cost of solving it.****] 2. Translate the problem into measurable requirements 3. Examine all feasible alternatives before selecting a solution [****There are usually so many "feasible" solutions that such an exhaustive examination is not cost effective***] 4. Make sure you consider the total system life cycle. The birth to death concept extends to maintenance, replacement and decommission. If these are not considered in the other tasks, major life cycle costs can be ignored. 5. Make sure to test the total system before delivering it. 6. Document everything. [***back to Stephen***] That looks representative of their applicability: much of it applies (e.g., "Document everything."), but significant pieces don't. Also, part of the systems engineering approach is to model solutions before building them, but in the case of computer system administration, it is often more expensive to model a system (representation + instrumentation + interpretation + measurement) than to build it. I do hope that virtualization techniques (e.g., Solaris domains, VMware, Xen) will begin to give us the tools to do cost-effective modeling. - Stephen From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 26 16:01:24 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0R01NAe000419 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:01:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0R01N1c000418 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:01:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from jas.peak.org (jas.peak.org [69.59.196.137]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0R01JAe000407 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:01:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from sechrest (helo=jas.peak.org) by jas.peak.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.44) id 1F2H3G-0001wx-1R; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:01:18 -0800 To: sschaefer@acm.org Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] INCOSE In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:36:19 EST. <1138318580.3081.125.camel@localhost.localdomain> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:01:18 -0800 From: John Sechrest Message-Id: X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: sechrest@jas.peak.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on jas.peak.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk "Stephen P. Schaefer" writes: % Also, part of the systems engineering approach is to model solutions % before building them, but in the case of computer system administration, % it is often more expensive to model a system (representation + % instrumentation + interpretation + measurement) than to build it. I do % hope that virtualization techniques (e.g., Solaris domains, VMware, Xen) % will begin to give us the tools to do cost-effective modeling. I have had two client installations where I did the configuration and modeling of the systems in virtual terms before I did the real work. I used a tool that I am working on (http://mln.sourceforge.net) to represent a collection of 10 different virtual machines and ran that test before I deployed it for the client. I think that virtualization is already doing the job of modeling these problems. ----- John Sechrest . Helping people use . computers and the Internet . more effectively . . Internet: sechrest@peak.org . . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 26 16:53:34 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0R0rWAe003285 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:53:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0R0rWtK003284 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:53:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0R0rUAd003279 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:53:31 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] INCOSE Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:53:25 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] INCOSE Thread-Index: AcYi0f53keAaC9yATm6U0j4Ytz95iAACUqPQ From: "Dave Hilton" To: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k0R0rVAd003280 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I attended one meeting, back when I joined. These are "process" engineers, by that I mean real, degreed (many PhD, worry-it-out-until-it's-perfect ENGINEERS. The "systems" they refer to are not "computer systems" they are SYSTEMS: water purification, chip manufacturing, auto asembly automation, nuclear plant operation, waste disposal, and the like. I sat for ftwo hours and understood nothing except the hellos and goodbyes: in between was gibberish. - DL From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 27 04:15:12 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0RCFBAe001385 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 04:15:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RCFBHv001384 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 04:15:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from de-fe01.dejazzd.com (outlb3.dejazzd.com [66.109.229.70]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0RCF8Ad001370 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 04:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from lisa ([72.25.18.177]) by de-fe01.dejazzd.com with ESMTP id <20060127121502.QYPJ17550.de-fe01.dejazzd.com@lisa>; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 07:15:02 -0500 From: "Lucky Dog" To: "'Martin Jackson'" , Subject: RE: [SAGE] IP KVM's and PDU which give you the most bang for you buck Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 07:14:45 -0500 Message-ID: <000201c6233b$441f9180$0264a8c0@bentech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <43D94926.3060508@guyver.demon.co.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Check out the Raritan line of PDU and KVM. The PDUs have remote control ability via a console port that can also be connected to the KVM. The KVM has network control so you can access the console without having to actually be in front of the rack. They can be a bit pricy IMHO but it's turning out to be well worth it when you can VPN in from home and either connect to the console or power cycle a device without having to drive in. Hope this helps - Bennett -----Original Message----- From: owner-sage-members@usenix.org [mailto:owner-sage-members@usenix.org]On Behalf Of Martin Jackson Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 5:12 PM To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] IP KVM's and PDU which give you the most bang for you buck Hey all, I'm buying some IP Keyboard, Video and Mouse units and IP Power distributions units to go in all my remote sites so we can perform some lights out operations safely, I was wondering what type of IP KVM's and PDU you've all used and can recommend that provide the good value for money. Cheers -Martin From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 27 08:58:09 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0RGw7Ae007633 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 08:58:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RGw7LE007632 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 08:58:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from msb.significant.com (msb.significant.com [64.34.193.47]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0RGw4Ae007621 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 08:58:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by msb.significant.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k0RGvle7023485; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:57:47 -0500 Received: from circle.homeip.net (cpe-066-057-079-078.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.79.78]) (authenticated bits=0) by msb.significant.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k0RGvicc023475; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:57:44 -0500 Received: from [152.3.22.33] (xavier.isds.duke.edu [152.3.22.33]) (authenticated bits=0) by circle.homeip.net (8.13.1/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0RGvhfN004521 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:57:44 -0500 Message-ID: <43DA5107.4080700@bearcircle.net> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:57:43 -0500 From: "Lance A. Brown" Organization: Bear Circle User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7-1.1.fc4 (X11/20050929) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lucky Dog CC: "'Martin Jackson'" , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] IP KVM's and PDU which give you the most bang for you buck References: <000201c6233b$441f9180$0264a8c0@bentech.com> In-Reply-To: <000201c6233b$441f9180$0264a8c0@bentech.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at significant.com Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Lucky Dog wrote: > Check out the Raritan line of PDU and KVM. > > The PDUs have remote control ability via a console port that can also be > connected to the KVM. The KVM has network control so you can access the > console without having to actually be in front of the rack. > > They can be a bit pricy IMHO but it's turning out to be well worth it when > you can VPN in from home and either connect to the console or power cycle a > device without having to drive in. When I last used Raritan equipment (7 months ago), they were selling Avocent's DSView (previously mentioned here) as the "remote access" part of their solution. It sucked to have to rdesktop into a windows machine from linux Linux box so I could run the DSView client to access the console on my linux servers. :-\ --[Lance] -- Celebrate The Circle http://www.celebratethecircle.org/ Carolina Spirit Quest http://www.carolinaspiritquest.org/ My LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/labrown/ GPG Fingerprint: 409B A409 A38D 92BF 15D9 6EEE 9A82 F2AC 69AC 07B9 CACert.org Assurer From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 27 09:22:06 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0RHM1Ae008578 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:22:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RHM01q008576 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from chopin.co-prosperity.org (chopin.co-prosperity.org [24.196.66.98]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0RHLgAe008560 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:21:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from chopin.co-prosperity.org (chopin [127.0.0.1]) by chopin.co-prosperity.org (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id k0RHLkgs031682; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:21:46 -0600 Received: from localhost (nmedbery@localhost) by chopin.co-prosperity.org (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) with ESMTP id k0RHLkBJ031679; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:21:46 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: nmedbery owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:21:46 -0600 (CST) From: nmedbery@museverte.net X-X-Sender: nmedbery@localhost.localdomain To: "Lance A. Brown" cc: Lucky Dog , "'Martin Jackson'" , Subject: Re: [SAGE] IP KVM's and PDU which give you the most bang for you buck In-Reply-To: <43DA5107.4080700@bearcircle.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We currently use a Raritan Dominian KX 32 port KVM over IP. I don't really like it. You have to install their client software and it uses some Internet Explorer components (ActiveX actually). The KVM itself locks up from time to time and needs to be reset. Sometimes it recovers, sometimes it does not. I upgraded the firmware recently and then grabbed the new Java client, but I thought the interface got worse! The older interface (which still works thankfully) has nice keyboard shortcuts to refresh the screen etc. On the new client, you had to use a key sequence just to bring up the menu giving you the option of a screen refresh, which had to be clicked with your mouse. It's possible that a keyboard sequence could have been used, but it was not intuitive enough for me to figure out quickly, so I went back to the old client. The mouse synchronization seems a little off to me as well and the screen refreshes are not very good. Maybe that is more to do with the "over IP" part, but I doubt it. I just have not used other products so I cannot compare. I do know that I don't get a warm fuzzy from using this thing though. I have used Cyclades TS-series equipment and always liked those. I do not know what their KVM over IP products are like and would be interested in hearing what others have to say about them. -Nate On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Lance A. Brown wrote: > Lucky Dog wrote: > > Check out the Raritan line of PDU and KVM. > > > > The PDUs have remote control ability via a console port that can also be > > connected to the KVM. The KVM has network control so you can access the > > console without having to actually be in front of the rack. > > > > They can be a bit pricy IMHO but it's turning out to be well worth it when > > you can VPN in from home and either connect to the console or power cycle a > > device without having to drive in. > > When I last used Raritan equipment (7 months ago), they were selling > Avocent's DSView (previously mentioned here) as the "remote access" part > of their solution. It sucked to have to rdesktop into a windows machine > from linux Linux box so I could run the DSView client to access the > console on my linux servers. :-\ > > --[Lance] From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 27 10:16:01 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0RIFuAe010054 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RIFt44010052 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:15:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail3.bitpusher.com (mail3.bitpusher.com [64.127.99.16]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0RIFmAd010038 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:15:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail3.bitpusher.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27313BC35; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:15:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail3.bitpusher.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07613-04; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:15:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (adsl-71-134-244-198.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [71.134.244.198]) by mail3.bitpusher.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8229BC3D; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:15:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <550C1C8D-C1EF-4D31-86C6-B882E8818B9E@halligan.org> Cc: "Michael T. Halligan" , "Lance A. Brown" , Lucky Dog , "'Martin Jackson'" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Michael T. Halligan" Subject: Re: [SAGE] IP KVM's and PDU which give you the most bang for you buck Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:15:18 -0800 To: nmedbery@museverte.net X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.1.1 (Tiger) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at bitpusher.com Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Nate, given the fact that remote PDUs are about $20 per port, and IP kvms seem to be somewhere in the ballpark of $200 - $400 per port.. If you're not using windows, a serial console goes a long way. Michael T. Halligan - ------------------------------------- BitPusher, LLC http://www.bitpusher.com/ On Jan 27, 2006, at 9:21 AM, nmedbery@museverte.net wrote: > We currently use a Raritan Dominian KX 32 port KVM over IP. I don't > really like it. You have to install their client software and it uses > some Internet Explorer components (ActiveX actually). The KVM itself > locks up from time to time and needs to be reset. Sometimes it > recovers, > sometimes it does not. I upgraded the firmware recently and then > grabbed > the new Java client, but I thought the interface got worse! The older > interface (which still works thankfully) has nice keyboard > shortcuts to > refresh the screen etc. On the new client, you had to use a key > sequence > just to bring up the menu giving you the option of a screen > refresh, which > had to be clicked with your mouse. It's possible that a keyboard > sequence > could have been used, but it was not intuitive enough for me to > figure out > quickly, so I went back to the old client. > > The mouse synchronization seems a little off to me as well and the > screen > refreshes are not very good. Maybe that is more to do with the > "over IP" > part, but I doubt it. I just have not used other products so I cannot > compare. I do know that I don't get a warm fuzzy from using this > thing > though. > > I have used Cyclades TS-series equipment and always liked those. I > do not > know what their KVM over IP products are like and would be > interested in > hearing what others have to say about them. > -Nate > > On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Lance A. Brown wrote: > >> Lucky Dog wrote: >>> Check out the Raritan line of PDU and KVM. >>> >>> The PDUs have remote control ability via a console port that can >>> also be >>> connected to the KVM. The KVM has network control so you can >>> access the >>> console without having to actually be in front of the rack. >>> >>> They can be a bit pricy IMHO but it's turning out to be well >>> worth it when >>> you can VPN in from home and either connect to the console or >>> power cycle a >>> device without having to drive in. >> >> When I last used Raritan equipment (7 months ago), they were selling >> Avocent's DSView (previously mentioned here) as the "remote >> access" part >> of their solution. It sucked to have to rdesktop into a windows >> machine >> from linux Linux box so I could run the DSView client to access the >> console on my linux servers. :-\ >> >> --[Lance] > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFD2mM6wjCqooJyNAMRAr1UAKC/Q2F3ckVWFRChCScWP+/GP63iIQCgop7F TzJBHLExuB7aQNIciEpAMWc= =TcVM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 27 16:22:30 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0S0MTAe019205 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:22:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0S0MTFB019204 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:22:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4.smtp.messagingengine.com (out4.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0S0MQAd019196 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:22:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from frontend1.internal (mysql-sessions.internal [10.202.2.149]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 116E8D301A0 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:22:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.151]) by frontend1.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:22:24 -0500 X-Sasl-enc: Q1r+2m8zs/D04y5xwVTgNe/2HDGxiNDqPQ1ia7Wbthui 1138407741 Received: from [10.0.0.2] (takoda.xs4all.nl [80.127.41.242]) by frontend2.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5518757146D for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:22:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43DAB93F.5070806@mailworks.org> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 01:22:23 +0100 From: Henk Langeveld User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] INCOSE References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Dave Hilton wrote: > I attended one meeting, back when I joined. These are "process" > engineers, by that I mean real, degreed (many PhD, > worry-it-out-until-it's-perfect ENGINEERS. The "systems" they refer to > are not "computer systems" they are SYSTEMS: water purification, chip > manufacturing, auto asembly automation, nuclear plant operation, waste > disposal, and the like. I sat for ftwo hours and understood nothing > except the hellos and goodbyes: in between was gibberish. Sounds great - but I assume that if people from so many different disciplines can talk with each other, we should be able to participate at some level of abstraction? On the other hand, I don't always find a welcome ear among my IT colleagues for the "systems" and "process" approach. Most that I meet just "build solutions", "fix problems" and go on to the next thing. Or were there islands with water purifiers, lithographers, and nuclear engineers, each with their own peers? Cheers, Henk -- e "Henk Langeveld" From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 27 17:07:24 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0S17NAe020426 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:07:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0S17NFY020425 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:07:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0S17LAd020416 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:07:21 -0800 (PST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Subject: RE: [SAGE] INCOSE Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:07:15 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] INCOSE Thread-Index: AcYjof75TJoM85YnRVyYHqBwE4ixWgAAov8g From: "Dave Hilton" To: "Henk Langeveld" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k0S17MAd020419 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hank, This thread prompted me to renew my Incose membership and take another crack at "where they are". My past experience was that the entire approach, or "world view" if you will, of the INCOSE membership, was an interdisciplinary one with common gorund in design, behavioral prediction, modeling and testing methods, performed and discussed by folks from many industries, but one and all had under-graduate, and/or graduate "engineering" degrees. I can spell engineer, but I ain't one by any stretch of the imagination (mine or anyone elses.) It was fascinating, and way over my head. I had joined and attended in the hope of assimilating some structure, discipline and methodology about computer systems and systems of computer networks. The abstraction domains (those that I recognized) fell into the "statistical process control" bucket, and I have no idea how to apply that to operating system patching strategies, network design and troubleshooting, or any of the shoot-from-the-hip situations I encounter in day-to-day *nix & network operations. Any SAGE member with an engineering background or engineering education will get loads more out of INCOSE than I ever will. I would love to have several of our enginnering degreed members join INCOSE with the goal of providing real, quality feedback about how their accumulated resources can be applied to Computer Systems Aministration and Network Administration. Hilton (humbly & looking forward to being proved wrong) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 27 17:38:49 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0S1cmAe021395 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:38:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0S1clwf021394 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:38:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0S1ckAe021389 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:38:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0S1ckLT021388 for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:38:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0S0tIAd020150 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:55:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from psyche.theory14.net ([68.235.173.45]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with ESMTP id <20060128005511.GIOI14388.mta9.adelphia.net@psyche.theory14.net> for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:55:11 -0500 Received: from goblin.theory14.net (goblin.theory14.net [192.168.1.3]) by psyche.theory14.net (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k0S0tBBr004483 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:55:11 -0500 Received: from goblin.theory14.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by goblin.theory14.net (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0S0tBSn003370 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:55:11 -0500 Received: (from csgordon@localhost) by goblin.theory14.net (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id k0S0tBvU003369 for sage-members@sage.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:55:11 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: goblin.theory14.net: csgordon set sender to chris@theory14.net using -f Subject: RE: [SAGE] IP KVM's and PDU which give you the most bang for you buck From: Chris Gordon To: sage-members@sage.org In-Reply-To: <000201c6233b$441f9180$0264a8c0@bentech.com> References: <000201c6233b$441f9180$0264a8c0@bentech.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:55:11 -0500 Message-Id: <1138409711.3315.4.camel@goblin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 (2.2.3-2.fc4) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > I'm buying some IP Keyboard, Video and Mouse units and IP Power > distributions units to go in all my remote sites so we can perform some > lights out operations safely, I was wondering what type of IP KVM's and > PDU you've all used and can recommend that provide the good value for money. > At a previous job, we had the best luck with APC PDUs. Very reliable and have both IP and serial interfaces. We had a Raritan IP KVM infrastructure which frankly sucked (for many reasons previously listed) and seemed to be down more than it was up. I've had good luck with Cyclades serial console servers and their support (was a while ago) but haven't tried thier IP KVM solutions. Chris From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 27 19:31:16 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0S3VFAe024014 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:31:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0S3VF86024013 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:31:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from msxyvr2.ds.mda.ca (msxyvr2.ds.mda.ca [142.73.131.49]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0S3VCAd024005 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:31:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from VMXYVR1.ds.mda.ca ([142.73.129.70]) by msxyvr2.ds.mda.ca with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:53:07 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [SAGE] INCOSE Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:53:05 -0800 Message-ID: <57F67688A8D72449AC80164DA98208310148AB7D@VMXYVR1.ds.mda.ca> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] INCOSE Thread-Index: AcYi0Zul7XnWybhbRCeBzFv9MA1s7wA2gVww From: "John LLOYD" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jan 2006 01:53:07.0472 (UTC) FILETIME=[95B68900:01C623AD] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k0S3VEAd024009 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I'm a member (#7468), and also one of those degreed engineers who does real (INCOSE-style) system engineering. > [***back to Stephen***] > That looks representative of their applicability: much of it applies > (e.g., "Document everything."), but significant pieces don't. > > Also, part of the systems engineering approach is to model solutions > before building them, but in the case of computer system > administration, > it is often more expensive to model a system (representation + > instrumentation + interpretation + measurement) than to build > it. I do > hope that virtualization techniques (e.g., Solaris domains, > VMware, Xen) > will begin to give us the tools to do cost-effective modeling. > > - Stephen > Don't confuse "modelling" with "building a small-ish version of the system", which is more properly called a prototype. System engineers make math models, out of Mathcad, Excel, system models out of pencil and paper, and other models as mental exercises. There are models to describe the problem (hence you get "context diagrams", or models, showing the system and the important things it interacts with). There are functional models (input this, output that), performance models (output that just this fast), and so on. I think the issue for the unpersuaded is that INCOSE uses certain terminology that does not match system-admin terminology, or uses certain methods that system admins either do unconsciously or not at all. "Modelling" is one example -- when somebody asks you to build a system with X terabytes of disk you automatically think about what your "best" answer is, and why. System engineering is just that plus writing it down. System engineering methods, when suitably tailored for the problem at hand, are efficient (because they are tailored to be), and most importantly aim at solving exactly the given problem, and no more and no less. That is the value. --John From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Jan 28 15:22:29 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0SNMTAe027190 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:22:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0SNMTvw027188 for sage-members-0utGoign; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:22:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.91]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0SNMOAd027177 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:22:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from guyver.demon.co.uk ([62.49.6.63]) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1F2zOg-000Dew-Bx for sage-members@sage.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 23:22:22 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.home [127.0.0.1]) by guyver.demon.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEB221B1851 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 23:22:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from guyver.demon.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (jabberwock.home [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27096-08 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 23:22:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [192.168.1.101]) by guyver.demon.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3AC1B1842 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 23:22:13 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <43DBFC97.7040904@guyver.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 23:21:59 +0000 From: Martin Jackson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] IP KVM's and PDU which give you the most bang for you buck References: <550C1C8D-C1EF-4D31-86C6-B882E8818B9E@halligan.org> In-Reply-To: <550C1C8D-C1EF-4D31-86C6-B882E8818B9E@halligan.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0604-4, 27/01/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at guyver.demon.co.uk Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Good point, I was just checking out the opengear site (www.opengear.com) and they have a different take from the other IP KVM vendors, i.e. you can use console redirection and Windows Emergency Management Services to manage Windows 2003 & XP using a serial console server, not sure how much functionality is available though but if it's acceptable $30 to $40 per port is more than worth it. -Martin Michael T. Halligan wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Nate, given the fact that remote PDUs are about $20 per port, and IP > kvms seem to be somewhere > in the ballpark of $200 - $400 per port.. If you're not using > windows, a serial console goes a long way. > > Michael T. Halligan > - ------------------------------------- > BitPusher, LLC > http://www.bitpusher.com/ > > > > On Jan 27, 2006, at 9:21 AM, nmedbery@museverte.net wrote: > >> We currently use a Raritan Dominian KX 32 port KVM over IP. I don't >> really like it. You have to install their client software and it uses >> some Internet Explorer components (ActiveX actually). The KVM itself >> locks up from time to time and needs to be reset. Sometimes it >> recovers, >> sometimes it does not. I upgraded the firmware recently and then >> grabbed >> the new Java client, but I thought the interface got worse! The older >> interface (which still works thankfully) has nice keyboard shortcuts to >> refresh the screen etc. On the new client, you had to use a key >> sequence >> just to bring up the menu giving you the option of a screen refresh, >> which >> had to be clicked with your mouse. It's possible that a keyboard >> sequence >> could have been used, but it was not intuitive enough for me to >> figure out >> quickly, so I went back to the old client. >> >> The mouse synchronization seems a little off to me as well and the >> screen >> refreshes are not very good. Maybe that is more to do with the >> "over IP" >> part, but I doubt it. I just have not used other products so I cannot >> compare. I do know that I don't get a warm fuzzy from using this thing >> though. >> >> I have used Cyclades TS-series equipment and always liked those. I >> do not >> know what their KVM over IP products are like and would be >> interested in >> hearing what others have to say about them. >> -Nate >> >> On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Lance A. Brown wrote: >> >>> Lucky Dog wrote: >>> >>>> Check out the Raritan line of PDU and KVM. >>>> >>>> The PDUs have remote control ability via a console port that can >>>> also be >>>> connected to the KVM. The KVM has network control so you can >>>> access the >>>> console without having to actually be in front of the rack. >>>> >>>> They can be a bit pricy IMHO but it's turning out to be well worth >>>> it when >>>> you can VPN in from home and either connect to the console or >>>> power cycle a >>>> device without having to drive in. >>> >>> >>> When I last used Raritan equipment (7 months ago), they were selling >>> Avocent's DSView (previously mentioned here) as the "remote access" >>> part >>> of their solution. It sucked to have to rdesktop into a windows >>> machine >>> from linux Linux box so I could run the DSView client to access the >>> console on my linux servers. :-\ >>> >>> --[Lance] >> >> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) > > iD8DBQFD2mM6wjCqooJyNAMRAr1UAKC/Q2F3ckVWFRChCScWP+/GP63iIQCgop7F > TzJBHLExuB7aQNIciEpAMWc= > =TcVM > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Jan 28 17:42:29 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0T1gSAe029717 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:42:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0T1gSvp029716 for sage-members-0utGoign; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:42:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0T1gRAe029709 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:42:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0T1gR7s029708 for sage-members@usenix.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:42:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0SNv2Ad028051 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:57:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Jan 2006 15:56:57 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.01,230,1136188800"; d="scan'208"; a="1771113061:sNHT32331148" Received: from [10.25.88.2] (sjc-rac-vpn1.cisco.com [10.25.88.2]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with SMTP id k0SNupc1013189; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:56:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43DC04C2.4070807@chycoski.com> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:56:50 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski Reply-To: rskiadmin@chycoski.com User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Jackson CC: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] IP KVM's and PDU which give you the most bang for you buck References: <550C1C8D-C1EF-4D31-86C6-B882E8818B9E@halligan.org> <43DBFC97.7040904@guyver.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <43DBFC97.7040904@guyver.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk You still don't get full KVM - this communicates with the machines via serial ports. If your machine is seriously hung, this doesn't get you the console. - Richard Martin Jackson wrote: > Good point, I was just checking out the opengear site (www.opengear.com) > and they have a different take from the other IP KVM vendors, i.e. you > can use console redirection and Windows Emergency Management Services to > manage Windows 2003 & XP using a serial console server, not sure how > much functionality is available though but if it's acceptable $30 to $40 > per port is more than worth it. > > -Martin > > Michael T. Halligan wrote: > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> Nate, given the fact that remote PDUs are about $20 per port, and IP >> kvms seem to be somewhere >> in the ballpark of $200 - $400 per port.. If you're not using >> windows, a serial console goes a long way. >> >> Michael T. Halligan >> - ------------------------------------- >> BitPusher, LLC >> http://www.bitpusher.com/ >> >> >> >> On Jan 27, 2006, at 9:21 AM, nmedbery@museverte.net wrote: >> >>> We currently use a Raritan Dominian KX 32 port KVM over IP. I don't >>> really like it. You have to install their client software and it uses >>> some Internet Explorer components (ActiveX actually). The KVM itself >>> locks up from time to time and needs to be reset. Sometimes it >>> recovers, >>> sometimes it does not. I upgraded the firmware recently and then >>> grabbed >>> the new Java client, but I thought the interface got worse! The older >>> interface (which still works thankfully) has nice keyboard shortcuts to >>> refresh the screen etc. On the new client, you had to use a key >>> sequence >>> just to bring up the menu giving you the option of a screen refresh, >>> which >>> had to be clicked with your mouse. It's possible that a keyboard >>> sequence >>> could have been used, but it was not intuitive enough for me to >>> figure out >>> quickly, so I went back to the old client. >>> >>> The mouse synchronization seems a little off to me as well and the >>> screen >>> refreshes are not very good. Maybe that is more to do with the >>> "over IP" >>> part, but I doubt it. I just have not used other products so I cannot >>> compare. I do know that I don't get a warm fuzzy from using this thing >>> though. >>> >>> I have used Cyclades TS-series equipment and always liked those. I >>> do not >>> know what their KVM over IP products are like and would be >>> interested in >>> hearing what others have to say about them. >>> -Nate >>> >>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Lance A. Brown wrote: >>> >>>> Lucky Dog wrote: >>>> >>>>> Check out the Raritan line of PDU and KVM. >>>>> >>>>> The PDUs have remote control ability via a console port that can >>>>> also be >>>>> connected to the KVM. The KVM has network control so you can >>>>> access the >>>>> console without having to actually be in front of the rack. >>>>> >>>>> They can be a bit pricy IMHO but it's turning out to be well worth >>>>> it when >>>>> you can VPN in from home and either connect to the console or >>>>> power cycle a >>>>> device without having to drive in. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> When I last used Raritan equipment (7 months ago), they were selling >>>> Avocent's DSView (previously mentioned here) as the "remote access" >>>> part >>>> of their solution. It sucked to have to rdesktop into a windows >>>> machine >>>> from linux Linux box so I could run the DSView client to access the >>>> console on my linux servers. :-\ >>>> >>>> --[Lance] >>> >>> >>> >> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) >> >> iD8DBQFD2mM6wjCqooJyNAMRAr1UAKC/Q2F3ckVWFRChCScWP+/GP63iIQCgop7F >> TzJBHLExuB7aQNIciEpAMWc= >> =TcVM >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Jan 29 08:40:45 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0TGejAe025960 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 08:40:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0TGeja5025959 for sage-members-0utGoign; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 08:40:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.mlop.de (heimdall.mlop.de [213.128.138.33]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0TGefAd025951 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 08:40:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.10.42.42] (p548FF837.dip.t-dialin.net [84.143.248.55]) by mail.mlop.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0TGedc8024605 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 17:40:40 +0100 Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 17:40:35 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Gerler To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Linux NFSROOT and fallout Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi! We run some diskless servers at work. NFSRoot, pxelinux-netboot. kernel 2.6. eepro100 / eepro1000 NICs. 1GB Ram. Most of the time its great. 1 setup for all nodes. But sometimes we get a fallout. If we connect a screen to the box we have just a black screen. The syslog on our sylogserver doesn't tell something usefull. Has somebody made experiences like that? Any solution out there? I have spent multiple hours searching the web. Nothing found till now. One "solution" i install next week will be a usb-power outlet. pinging these nodes and on failout power off / power on to bring them back. I would prefer a real solution but what shall i do? so long... Andreas Gerler http://www.bundesbrandschatzamt.de/~baron mailto:baron@bundesbrandschatzamt.de ICQ # 168310436 AIM: baron42fmcb From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 30 09:41:01 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0UHf1Ae027267 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:41:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UHf1bA027266 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:41:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0UHenAd027251 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:40:50 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] INCOSE Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:40:43 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] INCOSE Thread-Index: AcYi0Zul7XnWybhbRCeBzFv9MA1s7wA2gVwwAIYDD3A= From: "Dave Hilton" To: "John LLOYD" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k0UHepAd027258 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk John, Thank you for your comments. I remember having a vague thought along the lines "I don't think about this - I just do it." Of course! Rather than a pencil and paper model, I conjure up a mental picture of what exists now and of what is supposed to exist, worry out the details, plug in a fudge factor or two, rig up a real-world 3-D "prototype" - then go for it. If I understand you, "systems engineering" is the formalization of this process; of what I (we?) do as a matter of course in our lives as systems administrators. Are we on the same page? Hilton From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 30 11:09:42 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0UJ9fAe001939 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:09:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UJ9fUv001938 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:09:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from MSXYVR1.ds.mda.ca (msxyvr1.ds.mda.ca [142.73.131.48]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0UJ9cAd001931 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:09:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from VMXYVR1.ds.mda.ca ([142.73.129.70]) by MSXYVR1.ds.mda.ca with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:09:30 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [SAGE] INCOSE Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:09:29 -0800 Message-ID: <57F67688A8D72449AC80164DA98208310148AC62@VMXYVR1.ds.mda.ca> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] INCOSE Thread-Index: AcYi0Zul7XnWybhbRCeBzFv9MA1s7wA2gVwwAIYDD3AAAqcL0A== From: "John LLOYD" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jan 2006 19:09:30.0566 (UTC) FILETIME=[B28D2E60:01C625D0] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k0UJ9dAd001934 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Hilton [mailto:hilton@entelos.com] > Sent: January 30, 2006 9:41 AM > To: John LLOYD; sage-members@sage.org > Subject: RE: [SAGE] INCOSE > > > John, > > Thank you for your comments. > > I remember having a vague thought along the lines "I don't think about > this - I just do it." Of course! Rather than a pencil and > paper model, > I conjure up a mental picture of what exists now and of what > is supposed > to exist, worry out the details, plug in a fudge factor or > two, rig up a > real-world 3-D "prototype" - then go for it. If I understand you, > "systems engineering" is the formalization of this process; of what I > (we?) do as a matter of course in our lives as systems administrators. > Are we on the same page? > > Hilton > > Yes we are on the same page. If you can do this, and it works, and you get the end result documented (in other words the scale of the problem fits within your informal methods), then you are already doing a form of "tailored systems engineering" and you don't need to fix it. Some situations differ. In my own situation, I don't "own" the infrastructure, instead we are selling a heavily configured and variable-scale system to different customers, so a formal process is mandatory to keep the situation in control. And keep track of the different customers' different requirements. My own background is electrical engineering, and I didn't understand the basis of "system engineering" until some of the situations we ran into basically came up and figuratively slapped us in the face. Once we got into it, it was an obvious benefit. (Having the rest of the company be doing SE for most of their customers helped a lot too. We sell "governnment systems" and the SE approach is typical in the government markets, and no I'm not talking accounting systems.) One of these years I'll put up a wiki or web page with some of these ideas of mapping system admin to system engineering on it. John From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 30 19:52:17 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0V3qGAe015779 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:52:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0V3qGvg015778 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from richese.megacity.org (richese.megacity.org [65.221.104.162]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0V3qDAe015771 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:52:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.123.102] (cpe-68-175-10-53.hvc.res.rr.com [68.175.10.53]) (authenticated bits=0) by richese.megacity.org (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-3) with ESMTP id k0V3pDVX018950 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:52:09 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: SAGE list From: "Derek J. Balling" Subject: [SAGE] SMS Ethernet Device Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:52:07 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) X-Scanned-By: milter-gris/0.13.91 (richese.megacity.org [65.221.104.162]); Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:52:09 -0500 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk OK, I thought I'd seen these in the past, but now I can't seem to find one. In my previous lives, I'd've have done out-of-band paging via QPage, dialing up to an IXO/TAP modem at a paging provider's head-end and delivering an alphanumeric page that way. However, we're getting ready to abandon our legacy pagers, and send all messages through SMS. How are other sites doing this? I seem to remember seeing a really cool "ethernet SMS terminal" that spoke SNPP on the ethernet side and would deliver the pages via SMS on the other side to your phones, etc. (required service from a GSM provider, blah blah blah). Anyone seen one of those recently? Cheers, D From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 30 21:30:55 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0V5UtAe022241 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:30:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0V5Usji022240 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:30:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0V5UqAe022234 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:30:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0V5Upes022232 for sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:30:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from richese.megacity.org (richese.megacity.org [65.221.104.162]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0V0JFAe010919 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:19:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [143.229.1.129] (deballing-mac.vassar.edu [143.229.1.129]) (authenticated bits=0) by richese.megacity.org (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-3) with ESMTP id k0V0IrTH012124 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:19:04 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) To: SAGE list Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-24--701735769; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" From: "Derek J. Balling" Subject: [SAGE] Ethernet SMS Device Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:18:57 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) X-Scanned-By: milter-gris/0.13.91 (richese.megacity.org [65.221.104.162]); Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:19:04 -0500 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --Apple-Mail-24--701735769 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed OK, I thought I'd seen these in the past, but now I can't seem to find one. In my previous lives, I'd've have done out-of-band paging via QPage, dialing up to an IXO/TAP modem at a paging provider's head-end and delivering an alphanumeric page that way. However, we're getting ready to abandon our legacy pagers, and send all messages through SMS. How are other sites doing this? I seem to remember seeing a really cool "ethernet SMS terminal" that spoke SNPP on the ethernet side and would deliver the pages via SMS on the other side to your phones, etc. (required service from a GSM provider, blah blah blah). Anyone seen one of those recently? 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I recently started in my first job as a system administrator. I work in a small community with about 3800 citizens. I have the responsibility of about 120-150 computers, 10-20 printers, network equipment, and various pheripherals that is located on 7 schools. Most of the computers have Ubuntu linux installed, some have Windows Xp, and a few still use Windows 9X. The second part of my job is to support users (teachers and pupils). Totally I have about 550 users. I have 4 years of college and have taken courses in common computer science subjects like programming, operating systems, network related courses, etc. My education is a good basis, but I have little practice and have many questions. The largest site is 2 schools in the same area, with about 350 pupils and 40 teachers that have access to about 100 computers. Currently there is no local DNS server or NTP server. Do you think the benefits is great enough that it is worth my time to set up DNS and NTP? I have basic experience with both and enjoy working with both. Currently printing is handled by network printers, all computers have local CUPS queues and send the jobs directly to the printers. This have several drawbacks, for instance configuration hassles if a new printer is added. I have experiemented with a CUPS printing server just in my office, adding "ServerName xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx" to /etc/cups/client.conf on my client computers. Do you think such an approach is a good choice? Unfortunately my experience with network printers (with ethernet interface) is lacking. How will such a printer handle multiple print jobs that is larger than the memory in the printer? all clients uses local cups queues as mentioned earlier. Best regards, Erling Ringen Elvsrud From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 31 03:59:35 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0VBxXAe004875 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 03:59:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VBxXG2004874 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 03:59:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp103.his.com (smtp103.his.com [216.194.225.86]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0VBxJAe004860 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 03:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by smtp103.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k0VBxFcq084820; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 06:59:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k0VBx886038763; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 06:59:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1138707108.14297.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1138707108.14297.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:58:58 +0100 To: Erling Ringen Elvsrud From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] Hello, and a bunch of qestions Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on smtp103.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.88, clamav-milter version 0.87 on smtp103.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 12:31 PM +0100 2006-01-31, Erling Ringen Elvsrud wrote: > The largest site is 2 schools in the same area, with about 350 pupils > and 40 teachers that have access to about 100 computers. Currently there > is no local DNS server or NTP server. Do you think the benefits is great > enough that it is worth my time to set up DNS and NTP? I have basic > experience with both and enjoy working with both. With the number of machines you've got, you would definitely fall into the category of sites that would be encouraged to set up some internal time servers (which presumably make use of upstream time servers from other sources), and then re-distribute that time locally to all your clients. As a volunteer with the NTP Public Services Project (including Postmaster, Listmaster, and PGP Keymaster duties), I'll be glad to give you some advice in that area. The same is more or less true for the DNS -- with the number of clients you have, it would be useful to have local caching/recursive nameservers that all your machines could be configured to use. I've been mucking about with DNS for a number of years (including being a technical reviewer of 2nd edition of _DNS and BIND_), and I'll be glad to give you advice on how to do this with a reasonable level of security. However, in both cases, this may be a more involved task than you think it should be, at least if you're going to do it with a reasonable level of service and security. For NTP, you should set up at least four internal time servers (see for an explanation of why). If you don't have four servers that can be used in this role, you're going to want to think about this some more. For DNS, you're going to want to take some extra steps beyond the basic configuration, to make your machines more resistant to being abused by external attackers who are trying to break into your network or trying to use your machines to help create an attack on someone else. > Currently printing is handled by network printers, all computers have > local CUPS queues and send the jobs directly to the printers. This have > several drawbacks, for instance configuration hassles if a new printer > is added. I have experiemented with a CUPS printing server just in my > office, adding "ServerName xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx" to /etc/cups/client.conf on > my client computers. Do you think such an approach is a good choice? I would say that you definitely want to set up some printer spools on the servers, so that you can avoid having one client step all over another to try to get to the printer. > Unfortunately my experience with network printers (with ethernet > interface) is lacking. How will such a printer handle multiple print > jobs that is larger than the memory in the printer? all clients uses > local cups queues as mentioned earlier. This is why you set up spools on the server side -- anything beyond the level that the client can deal with is kept on the server, and the client simply dumps the file to the server as quickly as it can. It's then up to the server to send out the file contents to the printer at a speed that the printer can handle. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 31 04:53:34 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0VCrXAe005818 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 04:53:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VCrX9N005817 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 04:53:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [70.85.16.91]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0VCrRAd005810 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 04:53:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id DB67F1A977; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:20:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:20:11 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Brad Knowles Cc: Erling Ringen Elvsrud , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Hello, and a bunch of qestions Message-ID: <20060131122011.GA32453@catbert.org> References: <1138707108.14297.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hot Diggety! Brad Knowles was rumored to have written: > > > Unfortunately my experience with network printers (with ethernet > > interface) is lacking. How will such a printer handle multiple print > > jobs that is larger than the memory in the printer? all clients uses > > local cups queues as mentioned earlier. > > This is why you set up spools on the server side -- anything > beyond the level that the client can deal with is kept on the server, > and the client simply dumps the file to the server as quickly as it > can. It's then up to the server to send out the file contents to the > printer at a speed that the printer can handle. I once had a large Xerox office printer that would return errors from print jobs that had so many objects on the PDF page that it would run out of printer memory -- and hence, fail to print the job. If his printer has sufficient memory for any normal document, then he should be fine. If not, order some additional memory for the printer. I'm not sure how CUPS would deal with end user notification of failed jobs after it had already been spooled by CUPS. In my situation, it was with lpd doing the spooling, several years before I used CUPS. (This might be along the lines of what he's asking about.) -Dan (And, yes, I agree with the value of using internal NTP and DNS servers in a 'caching' role for a setup of that size. Should cost next to nothing assuming hardware already exists, and be trivial to maintain.) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 31 09:54:17 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0VHsHAe010989 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:54:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VHsHwv010988 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:54:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.tomsdiner.org (tomsdiner.org [217.160.173.205]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0VHsDAd010981 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:54:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mo.dievision (gateway.dievision.de [62.48.89.130]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EXP1024-RC4-SHA (56/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.tomsdiner.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFFDF3AC02D for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 18:54:13 +0100 (CET) From: Tom Regner To: SAGE list Subject: Re: [SAGE] SMS Ethernet Device Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 18:54:11 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <200601311854.11808.tomte@tomsdiner.org> X-Length: 3292 X-UID: 357 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi Derek, On Tuesday 31 January 2006 04:52, Derek J. Balling wrote: [...] > However, we're getting ready to abandon our legacy pagers, and send > all messages through SMS. How are other sites doing this? I seem to > remember seeing a really cool "ethernet SMS terminal" that spoke SNPP > on the ethernet side and would deliver the pages via SMS on the other > side to your phones, etc. (required service from a GSM provider, blah > blah blah). While I can't advice on the technical side of your question [1], I feel the need to stress the fact that GSM-Networks are not really reliable to transmit messages instantly - while our SMS-via-SMTP service has top-notch eliability of getting messages to the sms-gateways of the respective GSM-network of the providers of our employees, it happens that messages are delivered to the phone with considerable delay (>1h) - causing much stress if unavailability or another critical situation of a service was the reason for the message [2]. So if "instantness" (spelling/word?) of delivery is of importance in your case, take a look at what the gsm-network-operator guarantees in terms of delays of delivery. Kind regards, Tom Regner [1] A quick look through the google-glas braught up this page: http://www.csoft.co.uk/sms/api/snpp_to_sms.htm but I don't know the service nor the provider - so this is not a recommendation, but it shows that the problem is solved out there. [2] We use nagios with email and "sms-paging" to monitor our hosts and services - 'cause "A service unmonitored is not a service" (Hogan & Limoncelli, The Practice of System and Network Administration) :) - most of the emergencies occur indeed during working hours and the emails are suffcient to cause quick reaction, I guess we are bitten in the a** by a significant delay once or twice a year - hardly acceptable and unnerving, but within the limits of the SLA -- Tom Regner / http://www.tomsdiner.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 31 11:48:20 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0VJmIAe013498 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:48:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VJmHgd013497 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:48:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pproxy.gmail.com (pproxy.gmail.com [64.233.166.183]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0VJmBAd013492 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:48:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by pproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id z74so38970pyg for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:48:10 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=NRvn+s7cQdmV2xTGH4cF1vqvM1q984At5b3GFL/aAM8gP1DLrpiYZ+QpVwJ+3xbBikzgwMiRvZQ+G3USoTvl4WpPBwvq2suIB5EG9DYAaz7tCQZLMjIfPWAHSaMClsniH89tE/+wDyGM4ebCgx+ZuA9JpekGMNhoIxouV/GIY1M= Received: by 10.35.132.13 with SMTP id j13mr30612pyn; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:48:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.35.59.8 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:48:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:48:10 -0800 From: Dana Quinn Reply-To: danaq@pobox.com To: Tom Regner Subject: Re: [SAGE] SMS Ethernet Device Cc: SAGE list In-Reply-To: <200601311854.11808.tomte@tomsdiner.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <200601311854.11808.tomte@tomsdiner.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k0VJmGAd013493 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Howdy- On 1/31/06, Tom Regner wrote: > Hi Derek, > > On Tuesday 31 January 2006 04:52, Derek J. Balling wrote: > [...] > > However, we're getting ready to abandon our legacy pagers, and send > > all messages through SMS. How are other sites doing this? I seem to > > remember seeing a really cool "ethernet SMS terminal" that spoke SNPP > > on the ethernet side and would deliver the pages via SMS on the other > > side to your phones, etc. (required service from a GSM provider, blah > > blah blah). > While I can't advice on the technical side of your question [1], I feel the > need to stress the fact that GSM-Networks are not really reliable to transmit > messages instantly - while our SMS-via-SMTP service has top-notch eliability > of getting messages to the sms-gateways of the respective GSM-network of the > providers of our employees, it happens that messages are delivered to the > phone with considerable delay (>1h) - causing much stress if unavailability > or another critical situation of a service was the reason for the message > [2]. Are regular pager networks considered reliable anymore? Last two places I worked, with different pager providers (I think), it was common to have delayed pages. I'm typing this now as we've gone through about 50 minutes of archwireless delay... we haven't received pages we should have received 50 minutes ago. bah! dana -- Dana Quinn danaq@pobox.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 31 13:38:07 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0VLc7Ae015553 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:38:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VLc7Xl015552 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:38:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [70.85.16.91]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0VLc2Ad015545 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:38:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id AA6691A977; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:38:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:38:01 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Any Veritas/EMC/Oracle Education contacts? Message-ID: <20060131213801.GA27498@catbert.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf8 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I've been trying, without success, to find someone in the education group at any of these three companies. I need to ask about format of the CD and web-based training courses; calling their phone numbers is somewhat difficult for me due to nature of disability and how they have their phone system designed. I could ask a colleague to call on my behalf, but I'm reluctant to put such a burden on others. So I'm hoping someone here might know someone there and might be able to point me at a live human (or email address). :-) If so, welcome to respond on-list or privately. The question is simple, but it would seem that finding a human I can talk to, so far, is a little less so. Thanks! -Dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 31 13:48:29 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0VLmSAe015989 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:48:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VLmSRa015988 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:48:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from Eng.Auburn.EDU (dns.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.10.13]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0VLmPAd015983 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:48:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from netdir.eng.auburn.edu (netdir.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.12.3]) by Eng.Auburn.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k0VLmJOZ019295; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:48:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by netdir.eng.auburn.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.6.4) with ESMTP id k0VLmHC07509; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:48:17 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: netdir.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:48:17 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: Dan Foster cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Any Veritas/EMC/Oracle Education contacts? In-Reply-To: <20060131213801.GA27498@catbert.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, Dan Foster wrote: > I've been trying, without success, to find someone in the education > group at any of these three companies. > > I need to ask about format of the CD and web-based training courses; > calling their phone numbers is somewhat difficult for me due to nature > of disability and how they have their phone system designed. > > I could ask a colleague to call on my behalf, but I'm reluctant to put > such a burden on others. > > So I'm hoping someone here might know someone there and might be able to > point me at a live human (or email address). :-) If so, welcome to > respond on-list or privately. > > The question is simple, but it would seem that finding a human I can > talk to, so far, is a little less so. > I can probably get you to the right folks one way or another. Doug From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 1 07:33:46 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k11FXkAe016434 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 07:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k11FXkEZ016433 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 07:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from cousd.k12.ca.us (mail.cousd.k12.ca.us [156.3.149.16]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k11FXhAd016428 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 07:33:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from DSCDOM-MTA by cousd.k12.ca.us with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 01 Feb 2006 07:32:52 -0800 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.3 Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 07:32:37 -0800 From: "Joel Witherspoon" To: Subject: [SAGE] IP Address Management Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, We are trying to control the use of our networks with tools that limit the users ability to get IP address from DHCP without registration. We are wondering if anyone has used any low-cost/no-cost tools for IP management on their networks? Joel Witherspoon Network/Database Specialist Charter Oak Unified School District 20240 E. Cienega Avenue Covina, CA 91724 626 966 8331 x 221 jwitherspoon@cousd.k12.ca.us http://www.cousd.k12.ca.us QOTW: "I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it. " ~Mitch Hedberg From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 1 07:55:04 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k11Ft2Ae017088 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 07:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k11Ft2Vn017087 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 07:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.oregonstate.edu (postfix@smtp2.oregonstate.edu [128.193.4.8]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k11FsxAd017078 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 07:55:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.oregonstate.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52F82170568 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 07:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.oregonstate.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2 [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13093-07 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 07:54:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu (nws-ex1.nws.oregonstate.edu [128.193.7.73]) by smtp2.oregonstate.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A96D0170566 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 07:54:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from NWS-EXCH2.nws.oregonstate.edu ([128.193.7.76]) by NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 1 Feb 2006 07:54:48 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: [SAGE] IP Address Management Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 07:54:47 -0800 Message-ID: <7B4268E5ACB878429B58D4BE5B780E83507260@NWS-EXCH2.nws.oregonstate.edu> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] IP Address Management Thread-Index: AcYnRkWDpVuwU/qNRlCFunDKgYEDwgAAFH9A From: "Brock, Anthony - NET" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Feb 2006 15:54:48.0696 (UTC) FILETIME=[D470C780:01C62747] X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at oregonstate.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[none] X-Spam-Level: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k11Ft1Ad017083 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We using a package utility called "maintain". You can find more information here: http://osuosl.org/projects/maintain While the interface can be a little awkward, it has proven to be both useful and reliable. We're especially pleased with its ability to distribute management to the administrators who are responsible for a specific IP range or DNS domain. Tony > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sage-members@usenix.org > [mailto:owner-sage-members@usenix.org] On Behalf Of Joel Witherspoon > Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 7:33 AM > To: sage-members@sage.org > Subject: [SAGE] IP Address Management > > Hi all, > We are trying to control the use of our networks with tools that limit > the users ability to get IP address from DHCP without registration. We > are wondering if anyone has used any low-cost/no-cost tools for IP > management on their networks? > > Joel Witherspoon > Network/Database Specialist > Charter Oak Unified School District > 20240 E. Cienega Avenue > Covina, CA 91724 > 626 966 8331 x 221 > jwitherspoon@cousd.k12.ca.us > http://www.cousd.k12.ca.us > QOTW: > "I'm against picketing, > but I don't know how to show it. " > ~Mitch Hedberg > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 1 07:58:59 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k11FwxAe017413 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 07:58:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k11FwxXK017410 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 07:58:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailer.cacs.louisiana.edu (mailer.cacs.louisiana.edu [130.70.72.22]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k11FwtAe017405 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 07:58:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pml.cacs.louisiana.edu (pml.cacs.louisiana.edu [130.70.77.12]) by mailer.cacs.louisiana.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k11FwrJO029544; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 09:58:53 -0600 Subject: Re: [SAGE] IP Address Management From: "Patrick M. Landry" To: Joel Witherspoon Cc: sage-members@sage.org In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Organization: The Center for Advanced Computer Studies Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 09:58:52 -0600 Message-Id: <1138809532.3820.21.camel@pml.cacs.louisiana.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.87.1/1264/Wed Feb 1 06:38:31 2006 on mailer.cacs.louisiana.edu X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2006-02-01 at 07:32 -0800, Joel Witherspoon wrote: > Hi all, > We are trying to control the use of our networks with tools that limit > the users ability to get IP address from DHCP without registration. We > are wondering if anyone has used any low-cost/no-cost tools for IP > management on their networks? > > Joel Witherspoon > Network/Database Specialist > Charter Oak Unified School District > 20240 E. Cienega Avenue > Covina, CA 91724 > 626 966 8331 x 221 > jwitherspoon@cousd.k12.ca.us > http://www.cousd.k12.ca.us > QOTW: > "I'm against picketing, > but I don't know how to show it. " > ~Mitch Hedberg I use netreg (www.netreg.org) to manage my wireless subnet here. It forces users to register the first time they connect to the network. It maintains a database associating login IDs to MAC addresses. The main computing center here also uses it for roaming access across campus. So I am assuming it must scale fairly well. -- patrick From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 1 08:00:37 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k11G0bAe017541 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 08:00:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k11G0bTm017540 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 08:00:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from Eng.Auburn.EDU (dns.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.10.13]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k11G0XAd017535 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 08:00:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from netdir.eng.auburn.edu (IDENT:20663@netdir.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.12.3]) by Eng.Auburn.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k11G0VOZ026842; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 10:00:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by netdir.eng.auburn.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.6.4) with ESMTP id k11G0UF08006; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 10:00:30 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: netdir.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 10:00:30 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: Joel Witherspoon cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] IP Address Management In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Joel Witherspoon wrote: > Hi all, > We are trying to control the use of our networks with tools that limit > the users ability to get IP address from DHCP without registration. We > are wondering if anyone has used any low-cost/no-cost tools for IP > management on their networks? you may wish to see http://www.usenix.org/publications/library/proceedings/lisa99/full_papers/valian/valian_html/ http://www.usenix.org/publications/library/proceedings/lisa99/beck.html and qip (www.qip.com) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 1 08:12:42 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k11GCgAe018284 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 08:12:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k11GCgoI018283 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 08:12:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [70.85.16.91]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k11GCeAd018278 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 08:12:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id 0B1EB1A977; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 11:12:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 11:12:38 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Doug Hughes Cc: Joel Witherspoon , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] IP Address Management Message-ID: <20060201161238.GA21619@catbert.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hot Diggety! Doug Hughes was rumored to have written: > > and qip (www.qip.com) qip.com takes you to a DVD player website. I'm not quite sure that's the most ideal approach... ;) But if you're referring to Lucent QIP, then it is indeed incredible. I had an opportunity to see it in action several months ago by the QIP admin for the corporate network, and it's just amazing and extremely well integrated, with all sorts of nice knobs. Unfortunately, licensing (and probably support) is where you get socked. It was something like $1 per managed IP/station, and possibly per month or year or whatever... and it adds up. :) I'm pretty sure the cost alone would be prohibitive for that type of .edu setting... alas. I'm not quite sure what I'd recommend since I haven't ever had a need to do IP address / DHCP / etc. management, but I'm sure someone here has done it inexpensively and has recommendations. -Dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 1 10:55:14 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k11ItCAe021997 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 10:55:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k11ItCje021996 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 10:55:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp102.his.com (smtp102.his.com [216.194.225.90]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k11IsXAe021920 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 10:55:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by smtp102.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k11Is5iV081223; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 13:54:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k11Is2D5091043; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 13:54:04 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20060201161238.GA21619@catbert.org> References: <20060201161238.GA21619@catbert.org> Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 19:49:54 +0100 To: Dan Foster From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] IP Address Management Cc: Doug Hughes , Joel Witherspoon , sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on smtp102.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1264/Wed Feb 1 07:38:31 2006 on smtp102.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 11:12 AM -0500 2006-02-01, Dan Foster wrote: > qip.com takes you to a DVD player website. I'm not quite sure that's the > most ideal approach... ;) But if you're referring to Lucent QIP, then it > is indeed incredible. I had an opportunity to see it in action several > months ago by the QIP admin for the corporate network, and it's just > amazing and extremely well integrated, with all sorts of nice knobs. If you're willing to talk about expensive commercial tools like Lucent QIP, then I think you also have to consider Nominum DCS (see ), as well as the full Nominum suite. Expensive, but absolutely the best stuff available. Getting back to the original question (no/low cost solutions), has anyone tried "nocat"? -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 1 13:15:49 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k11LFmAe025040 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 13:15:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k11LFmkI025039 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 13:15:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail2.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.4]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k11LFjAe025029 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 13:15:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 28247 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2006 21:15:44 -0000 Received: from reverse.6.210.178.66.static.ldmi.com (HELO [192.168.1.103]) (dgregor@[66.178.210.6]) (envelope-sender ) by mail2.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with RC4-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 1 Feb 2006 21:15:44 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: References: <20060201161238.GA21619@catbert.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: DJ Gregor Subject: Re: [SAGE] IP Address Management Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 16:15:40 -0500 To: SAGE mailing list X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Feb 1, 2006, at 1:49 PM, Brad Knowles wrote: > Getting back to the original question (no/low cost solutions), has > anyone tried "nocat"? As in NoCatAuth and NoCatSplash? I did some work at a former employer to replace an aging network authentication infrastructure, and decided to go with NoCatAuth because it was about the only open source game in town (as opposed to writing something in-house or buying a commercial solution which was cost-prohibitive). It's a big ball of Perl, which I wasn't such a fan of, but it did work, and it worked well enough for us to implement it campus-wide (for thousands of public workstations at a university, and recently thousands more in dorms, I think). They have a central authentication server (the NoCatAuth "authserv") and dozens of firewalls that limit network access (NoCatAuth "gateway"s) deployed. They have run into some issues as of late, with devices that don't have a web browser, so they can never authenticate without some fiddling: http://8help.osu.edu/2887.html In general, I think the NoCatAuth solution works pretty well for them. - djg From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 1 18:42:49 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k122gmAe001772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 18:42:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k122gmRv001771 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 18:42:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.22]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k122gkAd001762 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 18:42:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.21.211] (zn.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.30]) by m1.imap-partners.net (MOS 3.7.1-GA) with ESMTP id AEN11287 (AUTH strata@imap-partners.net) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 18:42:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43E171A4.8000405@virtual.net> Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 18:42:44 -0800 From: "Strata R. Chalup" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Mailing List Subject: [SAGE] Memo to Members Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This is the first of a series of monthly SAGE Memo to Members postings. I welcome comments and suggestions on the ongoing process of getting SAGE firmly on track as the Sysadmin SIG of the Usenix Association. We're the R&D arm of the sysadmin community, with a focus on evolving best practices and technology. ************************************ * Intro * LISA: CFP, LISA Alumni * Booklets: Oracle available, Systems Configuration in review * Regional Activity * Code of Ethics Released * Spreading the Word ************************************ * Intro ************************************ Hello again! I'm Strata Chalup, sysadmin, project manager, sometime C and web coder, continuous gadfly, and now also SAGE Programs Manager for the Usenix Special Interest Group for System Administrators. I have not been around forever, as my first LISA was 1996, but I've gone around the block a few times. I'm a former SAGE Exec Committee member, BayLISA Board member, past BayLISA President & Treasurer. What do I do when I'm not administering SAGE Programs? The usual: run a small consulting business, and occasionally find time to be a blogger, gardener, scuba diver, ham radio operator, and nonprofit volunteer for a community garden site and a ships to reefs sink group working on turning mothballed warships into fish nurseries. Let's not forget catering to the whims of a pair of aging and increasingly tyrannical cats. ************************************ * LISA: CFP, LISA Alumni ************************************ What's doing? Having recovered from the LISA conference, the holiday season, and (mostly!) the cold and flu season, we're getting 2006 off to a great start with a mix of ongoing and new activities. In the 'ongoing' department, the LISA 2006 Call for Papers is ready for you-- are you ready for it? http://www.usenix.org/ events/lisa06/cfpm . In addition to a great list of technical challenges, the suggested paper topics include process and metrics topics related to the profession as a whole. Bill LeFebvre is chairing what looks like an awesome committee with lots of ideas for making this year's LISA an all-time best. We've gotten a lot of positive feedback about LISA'05 innovations like the "Hit the Ground Running" Track and the "Solve My Problem" Boards. As long as we're talking about LISA, I've been really pleased with the response to the LISA Alumni Frappr group created recently. We're planning some long-term ways to keep the LISA community in touch, of which this is merely a toe in the water. http://www.frappr.com/lisaconferencealumni ************************************ * Regional Activity ************************************ SAGE regional groups have been keeping busy, but we hear occasional reports of folks having trouble finding speakers or meeting space. Hey, we're here to help with that, just ask! The SAGE Speakers Bureau keeps getting new registrants, and one of them is probably near you, and would be happy to come and speak. If not, drop us a note and we'll help locate someone in your area. While we're on the topic of local groups, we'd like to state for the record that SAGE affiliation is neither limiting nor exclusive. A group can be a SAGE Local group as well as an ACM chapter, LOPSA group, etc. Remember, it's a community, not a contest. ************************************ * Code of Ethics Released ************************************ Speaking as a community, in fact, sysadmins have spoken and we've listened: the former SAGE Code of Ethics has been released as the Sysadmin Code of Ethics, and a joint committee formed with LOPSA for future revisions and updates. We're very proud to have helped make this happen, and we look forward to collaboration on other projects as well. Get your suitable-for-framing PDF copy at http://sage.org/ethics.pdf A mailing list for the joint project exists at http://lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ethics-review . ************************************ * Booklets: Oracle available, Systems Configuration in review ************************************ Current SAGE members can access the latest SAGE Booklet, "The Sysadmin's Guide to Oracle", at http://www.sage.org/pubs/13_oracle/ as a PDF download. A copy of the booklet is being mailed to existing members and to new members. All the SAGE Booklets are available for download by members, so if you're new to SAGE, come on down and get your copies. Our 14th booklet, Systems Configuration, is currently in manuscript review, and we're working to get it into your hands, and onto your screens, as quickly as possible. After that? We have several topics we're considering-- if you have a topic, or would like to help write a booklet, please let us know at sagebooklets@usenix.org . ************************************ * Spreading the Word ************************************ SAGE has sometimes had trouble communicating with its members as an organization, for a variety of reasons. One thing that we're going to be doing is more communicating, and one way we're going to be doing that is by sending you this monthly Memo to Members. As always, we respect your privacy and your mailing preferences, but you've cared enough to give your hard-earned dues to SAGE and we feel that we owe it to you to chime in on a regular basis. We'll be contacting current and recently-lapsed SAGE members soon with some special news and a chance to reconnect, and plan to stay in touch with all members in the future. You don't have to wait to hear from us, though. SAGE members can join (or re-join) the sage-members mailing list. The questions are real-world problems in the field and the answers are extremely educational-- I learn something about troubleshooting or systems technology every time I read the list. Use majordomo@usenix.org to subscribe. cheers, Strata Chalup SAGE Programs Manager strata@usenix.org -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Strategic IT for the Growing Enterprise ** ========================================================================= From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 1 20:22:04 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k124M2Ae003668 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 20:22:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k124M2ZS003667 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 20:22:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nc-tor-mail1.connection.ca (nc-tor-mail1.connection.ca [205.207.122.26]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k124M0Ad003662 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 20:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (42.127.207.205.rev.connection.ca [205.207.127.42]) by nc-tor-mail1.connection.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3BA44B448 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 23:21:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43E188FA.2020300@esoteric.ca> Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 23:22:18 -0500 From: Stephen Fulton User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] OpenNMS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, I'm looking for opinions on OpenNMS. At the moment, we're using a combination of NAGIOS for monitoring and Cacti for historical graphing, but I'm beginning to sorely miss the usefulness of SNMP traps to more quickly identify problems, including those not easily monitored by NAGIOS. >From my research into OpenNMS, I've found the there is a consensus that it is not easy to set up. Before I invest my time and the money on a dedicated box for this, I'd like to solicit opinions about it. I'm also curious about how well it scales - number of hosts, services etc, that it can handle. We're not a small shop, but we're not large either. I've also considered HP's OpenView, but I'm not convinced it's worth the price, given that much what it can monitor is covered by OpenNMS, NAGIOS etc. Thanks, -- Stephen Fulton | We can be quick-witted Systems Administrator | or very intelligent Toronto, Canada | but not both. http://www.esoteric.ca/ | -- Stephen Hawking. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 1 20:39:29 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k124dSAe004601 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 20:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k124dStv004599 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 20:39:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from slick.sigje.org (rdns.222.240.218.216.fre.communitycolo.net [216.218.240.222]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k124dQAe004592 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 20:39:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from sigje (helo=localhost) by slick.sigje.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1F4WFc-0000iF-OM for sage-members@sage.org; Wed, 01 Feb 2006 20:39:20 -0800 Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 20:39:20 -0800 (PST) From: Jennifer Davis To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Another organization question... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Anyone heard of AFCOM before? Possible members? Are their white papers any good? http://www.afcom.com/ I'm just looking for more resources/information about planning/scoping out data centers and figuring out power/cooling needs and I found this organization. Mission: AFCOM is the premier association representing the needs of enterprise and Internet data center managers, executives and vendors around the globe. Our mission is to enable data center professionals to share industry best practices by providing a forum for dissemination of critical information; to provide education on key data center management issues; to provide the industry's most comprehensive insight and analysis in key areas affecting all data-intensive organizations; and to be the most comprehensive and effective resource available to the overall data center community. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 1 21:59:16 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k125xGAe006361 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 21:59:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k125xGnc006360 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 21:59:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from hexogen.explosive.net (hexogen.explosive.net [216.27.184.5]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k125xCAe006353 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 21:59:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by hexogen-lo0.explosive.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97515EBBF8; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 21:59:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 21:59:21 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Sorenson To: Stephen Fulton Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] OpenNMS In-Reply-To: <43E188FA.2020300@esoteric.ca> Message-ID: References: <43E188FA.2020300@esoteric.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Stephen Fulton wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm looking for opinions on OpenNMS. At the moment, we're using a > combination of NAGIOS for monitoring and Cacti for historical graphing, > but I'm beginning to sorely miss the usefulness of SNMP traps to more > quickly identify problems, including those not easily monitored by NAGIOS. If this is all you're lacking from nagios, set up snmptt (trap translater) with an optional SEC (simple event correlator) layer and get your trap functionality without tossing the baby out with the bathwater. I've just finished a quick deployment (without SEC) that funnels the traps into mon. It took 2 days and works very nicely. There's a SAmag article that zips through the required steps http://www.samag.com/documents/s=9559/sam0503g/ But really snmptt's convertmib utility does most of the heavy lifting. http://snmptt.sf.net/ I periodically go back and look at opennms to see where they're at, realize I don't have a month to spend to get incremental wins over what I've got already, and get back to work. -- - Eric Sorenson - N37 17.255 W121 55.738 - http://eric.explosive.net - - Personal colo with a professional touch - http://www.explosive.net - From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 1 23:53:22 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k127rLAe008949 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 23:53:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k127rLWM008947 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 23:53:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.5]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k127rJAe008942 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2006 23:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 19530 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2006 07:53:18 -0000 Received: from d149-67-147-152.col.wideopenwest.com (HELO [172.16.1.4]) (dgregor@[67.149.152.147]) (envelope-sender ) by mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with RC4-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 2 Feb 2006 07:53:18 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43E188FA.2020300@esoteric.ca> References: <43E188FA.2020300@esoteric.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: DJ Gregor Subject: Re: [SAGE] OpenNMS Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 02:53:13 -0500 To: SAGE mailing list X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Feb 1, 2006, at 11:22 PM, Stephen Fulton wrote: > I'm looking for opinions on OpenNMS. At the moment, we're using a > combination of NAGIOS for monitoring and Cacti for historical > graphing, > but I'm beginning to sorely miss the usefulness of SNMP traps to more > quickly identify problems, including those not easily monitored by > NAGIOS. > > From my research into OpenNMS, I've found the there is a consensus > that > it is not easy to set up. Before I invest my time and the money on a > dedicated box for this, I'd like to solicit opinions about it. I'm > also > curious about how well it scales - number of hosts, services etc, that > it can handle. We're not a small shop, but we're not large either. > > I've also considered HP's OpenView, but I'm not convinced it's > worth the > price, given that much what it can monitor is covered by OpenNMS, > NAGIOS > etc. Disclosure: I'm an OpenNMS developer in my spare time (I have another persona at dj@opennms.org). As Eric Sorenson mentioned earlier, your easiest route to get traps might be to run snmptt or a similar tool as a bolt-on to Nagios. If you are looking for additional features, it might be useful to switch to OpenNMS, however. OpenNMS has a lot of built-in automation that make it well suited to large environments. It can auto-discover new nodes and services on those nodes (and new services that appear on existing nodes) and automatically setup service polling, SNMP data collection, and thresholding based on a form of policy-based configuration that it calls "packages". Policy-based decisions can also be made when performing notifications. Out of the box, the response time data from polled services and collected SNMP performance data are available for graphing over the web immediately after they are first collected. OpenNMS also has a pretty rocking event subsystem at its core--SNMP traps, outages, new hosts/services, etc. are handled internally as events. An event can be browsed through the web GUI, it can trigger a notification (which can actually be a complex set of possibly delayed notifications to different notification mechanisms and/or people/groups, including on-call schedules and roles), can trigger a program to be executed, an XML-RPC message to be sent, or arbitrary code to be executed (the last one is commonly used for sending traps to another host, for example). A lot of this can be too much for a lot of people. Some people just have a few hosts and either want to manually edit a configuration file to say "monitor services X, Y, and Z on host A, ...", or they have an automated mechanism to build the list of what to monitor on which hosts. Nagios is really good for this. Where OpenNMS really shines is monitoring *big* networks. There are plenty of sites monitoring thousands of nodes and/or interfaces with a single box running OpenNMS. The biggest numbers for a single box that I can remember now are 20k nodes and 80k interfaces (collecting ~200k SNMP data points every 5 minutes). I think that there might be some 100k+ node sites, now though. The bottleneck at these large sites with modern OpenNMS versions isn't the software, it's the massive amount of underlying disk IO needed to store hundreds of thousands of RRD data points to disk every five minutes. Running everything inside of a single, highly-threaded JVM and not doing any forking has its advantages. ;-) If you are considering HPOV, I highly suggest looking closely at OpenNMS to see if it will meet your needs. And if it doesn't send me an email: I'd love to know where we can improve. - djg From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 2 05:05:30 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12D5TAe027211 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 05:05:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k12D5T5f027210 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 05:05:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from clas.ufl.edu (minotaur.clas.ufl.edu [128.227.148.248]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12D5QAd027200 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 05:05:26 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-From: allan@cookie.org Received: from [128.227.148.121] (allanbc68.dhcp.clas.ufl.edu [128.227.148.121]) by clas.ufl.edu (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/clas1.23) with ESMTP id k12D5Mn00648; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:05:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43E20392.5020004@cookie.org> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:05:22 -0500 From: Allan West User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Macintosh/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jennifer Davis CC: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Another organization question... References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Jennifer Davis wrote: > > Anyone heard of AFCOM before? Possible members? Are their white papers > any good? > > http://www.afcom.com/ Not personally, but I enjoy the links to new (to me) organizations. > I'm just looking for more resources/information about planning/scoping > out data centers and figuring out power/cooling needs Have you read TIA-942? My institution is trying to use rational guidelines for cable plant installation, and Telecommunications Industry Association (TIA) is the source of much of our standards. They've recently issued a standard on data center design which is a good reference for people who haven't thought about all of the different angles you have to look at when designing a new center. It's good for IT folks who don't know about facilities and contractor stuff, and contractors who don't know much about IT. There's a page about the release here: I borrowed a copy from the campus telecomm planning guy. Unfortunately, the hard copy costs $250, so I don't own a copy of my own, yet. Allan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 2 05:09:04 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12D93Ae027347 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 05:09:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k12D93r7027346 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 05:09:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from venezia.uab.es (venezia.uab.es [158.109.168.132]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12D90Ad027340 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 05:09:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from venezia.uab.es ([127.0.0.1]) by venezia.uab.es (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.10 (built Jan 6 2005)) with ESMTP id <0IU200DT8A32J0A0@venezia.uab.es> for sage-members@sage.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:13:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from abra.uab.es ([158.109.70.161]) by venezia.uab.es (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.10 (built Jan 6 2005)) with ESMTP id <0IU200KSVA32ID70@venezia.uab.es> forsage-members@sage.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:13:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from [158.109.70.130] (ccd-purbon.uab.es [158.109.70.130]) (authenticated bits=0) by abra.uab.es (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12D8hGN015251(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO)for ; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:08:44 +0100 Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:08:33 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Pere_Urb=F3n_Bayes?= Subject: [SAGE] Disableing the MX resolution on sendmail To: sage-members@sage.org Reply-to: purbon@acm.org Message-id: <43E20451.8040905@acm.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-imss-version: 2.036 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scores: Clean:24.15506 C:2 M:3 S:5 R:5 X-imss-settings: Baseline:3 C:3 M:3 S:3 R:3 (0.5000 0.5000) User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hello to everybody, could any one of you tell me how to disable the MX resolution on sendmail? I'm looking for it during all the day without luck! -_-! Regards Pere From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 2 05:32:01 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12DW1Ae028229 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 05:32:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k12DW06F028228 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 05:32:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from wingfoot.org (caduceus.wingfoot.org [64.32.179.50]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12DVvAd028219 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 05:31:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wingfoot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B596C1F4405; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:31:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from wingfoot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (wingfoot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10042) with ESMTP id 60155-01; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:31:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (ool-44c47f78.dyn.optonline.net [68.196.127.120]) by wingfoot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B5E81F4404; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:31:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43E209CB.1040909@wingfoot.org> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:31:55 -0500 From: Glenn Sieb User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8b5) Gecko/20051006 Thunderbird/1.4.1 Mnenhy/0.6.0.104 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: purbon@acm.org CC: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Disableing the MX resolution on sendmail References: <43E20451.8040905@acm.org> In-Reply-To: <43E20451.8040905@acm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at wingfoot.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Pere Urbón Bayes said the following on 2/2/2006 8:08 AM: > Hello to everybody, could any one of you tell me how to disable the MX > resolution on sendmail? I'm looking for it during all the day without > luck! -_-! You don't say what version, but... http://www.sendmail.org/8.12.0.html "MX records will be looked up for FallBackMXhost. To use the old behavior (no MX lookups), put the name in square brackets." More hits: http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hs=ecy&hl=en&lr=lang_en&newwindow=1&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=site%3Asendmail.org+no+mx+lookup&btnG=Search Best, --Glenn -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 2 06:30:56 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12EUuAe029522 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 06:30:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k12EUu9s029521 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 06:30:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from util501.his.com (util501.his.com [216.194.216.35]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12EUgAe029515 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 06:30:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by util501.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k12EUYcl008681; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 09:30:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k12EUVwL065113; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 09:30:32 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <43E20392.5020004@cookie.org> References: <43E20392.5020004@cookie.org> Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:28:34 +0100 To: Allan West From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] Another organization question... Cc: Jennifer Davis , sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on util501.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.88, clamav-milter version 0.87 on util501.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 8:05 AM -0500 2006-02-02, Allan West quoted Jennifer Davis: >> I'm just looking for more resources/information about planning/scoping >> out data centers and figuring out power/cooling needs > > Have you read TIA-942? My institution is trying to use rational guidelines > for cable plant installation, and Telecommunications Industry Association > (TIA) is the source of much of our standards. They've recently issued a > standard on data center design which is a good reference for people who > haven't thought about all of the different angles you have to look at > when designing a new center. It's good for IT folks who don't know about > facilities and contractor stuff, and contractors who don't know >much about IT. Of course, there's always the chapter on Data Center design in Tom's book. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 2 07:20:45 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12FKjAe000668 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 07:20:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k12FKj3f000667 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 07:20:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from clas.ufl.edu (minotaur.clas.ufl.edu [128.227.148.248]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12FKgAd000660 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 07:20:43 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-From: allan@cookie.org Received: from [128.227.148.121] (allanbc68.dhcp.clas.ufl.edu [128.227.148.121]) by clas.ufl.edu (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/clas1.23) with ESMTP id k12FKfn29164; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 10:20:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43E22348.2010305@cookie.org> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 10:20:40 -0500 From: Allan West User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Macintosh/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles CC: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Another organization question... References: <43E20392.5020004@cookie.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Brad Knowles wrote: > At 8:05 AM -0500 2006-02-02, Allan West quoted Jennifer Davis: > >>> I'm just looking for more resources/information about planning/scoping >>> out data centers and figuring out power/cooling needs >> >> >> Have you read TIA-942? My institution is trying to use rational >> guidelines >> for cable plant installation, and Telecommunications Industry >> Association >> (TIA) is the source of much of our standards. They've recently issued a >> standard on data center design which is a good reference for people who >> haven't thought about all of the different angles you have to look at >> when designing a new center. It's good for IT folks who don't know about >> facilities and contractor stuff, and contractors who don't know much >> about IT. > > > Of course, there's always the chapter on Data Center design in Tom's > book. That's an excellent place to start, of course. If you find yourself actually designing a center with a contractor and designer who know more about materials and space than technical occupants, the TIA doc can be a big help in explaining what you need in terms contractors will understand. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 2 07:22:02 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12FM2Ae000748 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 07:22:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k12FM2Tp000746 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 07:22:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from istanbul.uab.es (istanbul.uab.es [158.109.168.138]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12FLwAd000740 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 07:21:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from istanbul.uab.es (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by istanbul.uab.es (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.10 (built Jan 6 2005)) with ESMTP id <0IU200EHNG9SSH00@istanbul.uab.es> for sage-members@sage.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:27:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from abra.uab.es ([158.109.70.161]) by istanbul.uab.es (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.10 (builtJan 6 2005)) with ESMTP id <0IU200MI3G9NZ7D0@istanbul.uab.es> forsage-members@sage.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:27:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from [158.109.70.130] (ccd-purbon.uab.es [158.109.70.130]) (authenticated bits=0) by abra.uab.es (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12FLlGN018120(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:21:47 +0100 Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:21:36 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Pere_Urb=F3n_Bayes?= Subject: Re: [SAGE] Disableing the MX resolution on sendmail In-reply-to: <43E209CB.1040909@wingfoot.org> To: Glenn Sieb Cc: sage-members@sage.org Reply-to: purbon@acm.org Message-id: <43E22380.70907@acm.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-imss-version: 2.036 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scores: Clean:99.90000 C:2 M:3 S:5 R:5 X-imss-settings: Baseline:3 C:3 M:3 S:3 R:3 (0.5000 0.5000) References: <43E20451.8040905@acm.org> <43E209CB.1040909@wingfoot.org> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Dear all, finally i solved writeing on the mailertable the correct smtp for the domains. Regards! Glenn Sieb wrote: >Pere Urbón Bayes said the following on 2/2/2006 8:08 AM: > > >>Hello to everybody, could any one of you tell me how to disable the MX >>resolution on sendmail? I'm looking for it during all the day without >>luck! -_-! >> >> > >You don't say what version, but... > >http://www.sendmail.org/8.12.0.html > >"MX records will be looked up for FallBackMXhost. To use the old >behavior (no MX lookups), put the name in square brackets." > >More hits: > >http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hs=ecy&hl=en&lr=lang_en&newwindow=1&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=site%3Asendmail.org+no+mx+lookup&btnG=Search > >Best, >--Glenn > > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 2 11:45:40 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12JjeAe007777 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k12Jjefh007776 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.196]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12JjYAd007767 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:45:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 50so458809wri for ; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:45:33 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=WJ0yM+gnZwXfMO+wBxBmutYY7sa6YuwLCXIwUKr5g8AfGhaTdudteF0x8v59eVQDcfSSv/BgQdxUXR0KiqjN4p07NriDmVUORPfGzbKOvwjX0sNP8JCxXUz5lXy4MiqNk/Dc34sHghJnJY5WnWRkBbHfbD/54qFZXlD+Ty+RAyk= Received: by 10.64.203.6 with SMTP id a6mr636199qbg; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:45:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.218.1 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:45:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f258c6a0602021145t5af2df89kf34232f061a02ff2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:45:32 -0800 From: Clay Ye To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Authentication of CVS in Linux against Active Directory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k12JjcAd007772 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I'm trying to setup authentication of CVS against Active Directory. In the network, all users use Windows xp, and we are using Active Directory on Windows 2003 server for authentication. We have a Linux server as a CVS server. I did a google , from what I understand, there's two ways, 1. use the PAM settings for cvs 2. Microsoft has a Windows Services for UNIX, setup NIS in Linux to authenticate users in Active Directory, and authenticate cvsup using local users? So before I start work on this, I'd like to hear ideas or comments from you. Are these two ways the right solutions? Which one is better? Any other ways? Thanks -- Clay Ye From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 2 12:08:15 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12K83Ae008511 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k12K834x008510 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:08:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from pat.cryst.bbk.ac.uk (pat-ext.cryst.bbk.ac.uk [193.61.32.113]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12K7gAe008500 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:07:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from katchoo.cryst.bbk.ac.uk (katchoo.cryst.bbk.ac.uk [193.61.35.179]) by pat.cryst.bbk.ac.uk (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id k12K5RSt007942; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 20:05:27 GMT Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 20:05:27 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: Richard Westlake To: sage-members@usenix.org, Jennifer Davis Subject: [SAGE] Data centre design [was Another organization question] In-Reply-To: <200602021000.k12A0FRn023888@voyager.usenix.org> Message-ID: References: <200602021000.k12A0FRn023888@voyager.usenix.org> X-X-Sender: richards@pat-new.cryst.bbk.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-cryst-bbk-ac-uk-MailScanner-Information: Please contact CCSG more information (http://www.cryst.bbk.ac.uk/CCSG/) X-cryst-bbk-ac-uk-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-cryst-bbk-ac-uk-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-4.9, required 9, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -4.90) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > > Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 20:39:20 -0800 (PST) > From: Jennifer Davis > Subject: [SAGE] Another organization question... > > Anyone heard of AFCOM before? Possible members? Are their white papers > any good? > > http://www.afcom.com/ > > I'm just looking for more resources/information about planning/scoping out > data centers and figuring out power/cooling needs and I found this > organization. > Jennifer I cant help you with AFCOM, but I would be interested in any pointers or links you have come across on data centre design and planning, especially for smaller sites. There doesn't seem to be much material out there. I suppose not many people get to design a data centre or server room or do it enough times to write about it. This seems to be an problematic area where sys admin, electrical engineering, mechanical and structural engineering and other disciplines all meet, The only resources I found were The Sun Microsystems Data Center Site Planning Guide http://docs-pdf.sun.com/805-5863-13/805-5863-13.pdf Sun Blueprints book Enterprise data centre design and methodology by Rob Senvely http://www.sun.com/books/catalog/snevely.xml and some white papers on the APC site http://www.apc.com/tools/mytools/index.cfm?action=search&category=wp1 A question for the list: Is there a minimum size a before you can call something a data centre? And if so what do you call any installation /site which is smaller? Richard Westlake School of Crystallography, Birkbeck College, Malet Street London, WC1E 7HX, UK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Truth endures but spelling changes -- Anon. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 2 12:23:04 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12KN3Ae009261 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k12KN27l009260 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:23:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12KN1Ae009253 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:23:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k12KN1uw009252 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:23:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12KDbAd008785 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Feb 2006 12:13:26 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.01,248,1136188800"; d="scan'208"; a="1772894142:sNHT1247284206" Received: from [10.25.88.4] (sjc-rac-vpn3.cisco.com [10.25.88.4]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with SMTP id k12KDJc1022625; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:13:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43E267DA.80305@chycoski.com> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 12:13:14 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski Reply-To: rskiadmin@chycoski.com User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Clay Ye CC: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Authentication of CVS in Linux against Active Directory References: <1f258c6a0602021145t5af2df89kf34232f061a02ff2@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f258c6a0602021145t5af2df89kf34232f061a02ff2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Clay: 1) and 2) are not mutually exclusive - you basically need to do both. There are two commercial and one Open Source solution that I know of that enable such authentication: Open Source - PADL - www.padl.com - Luke Howard, who was the author of RFC 2307 upon which Unix authentication via Active Directory was based (and who is the biggest contributor of Open Source software in this area) is the owner of PADL. Very smart (and friendly!) guy, and a good product that has received a lot of his development over the years. He also produces commercial products based on this software. Quest (formerly Vintela) VAS - a commercial product that has partnerships with Microsoft. Centrify - another commercial product that has partnerships with Microsoft. None of the products is yet 100% complete (IMNSHO), but all are racing to get there and are pretty close (and for your particular application, everything you need is in all three). If you need 24x7 commercial support in the US (and some other parts of the world), you may have to go with Quest or Centrify, but if you're only converting a machine or two, or don't have a management requirement for a product backed by a plethora of staff - go with PADL. Warning - none of this is simple, and to implement Unix authc/authz in Active Directory requires additions to your schema (some of which are now standard additions from Microsoft, some are not) and a fair amount of work - I know because I'm in the middle of just such a project for a very large installation of non-homogeneous systems. (:-) - Richard Clay Ye wrote: > Hi, > I'm trying to setup authentication of CVS against Active Directory. In > the network, all users use Windows xp, and we are using Active > Directory on Windows 2003 server for authentication. We have a Linux > server as a CVS server. > > I did a google , from what I understand, there's two ways, > 1. use the PAM settings for cvs > 2. Microsoft has a Windows Services for UNIX, setup NIS in Linux to > authenticate users in Active Directory, and authenticate cvsup using > local users? > > So before I start work on this, I'd like to hear ideas or comments > from you. Are these two ways the right solutions? Which one is better? > Any other ways? > > Thanks > > > -- > Clay Ye From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 2 12:24:09 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12KNvAe009371 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:23:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k12KNvf2009370 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:23:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from clas.ufl.edu (minotaur.clas.ufl.edu [128.227.148.248]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12KNeAd009362 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:23:42 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-From: allan@cookie.org Received: from [128.227.148.121] (allanbc68.dhcp.clas.ufl.edu [128.227.148.121]) by clas.ufl.edu (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/clas1.23) with ESMTP id k12KNbn10470; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:23:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43E26A49.6080601@cookie.org> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 15:23:37 -0500 From: Allan West User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Macintosh/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Westlake CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Data centre design [was Another organization question] References: <200602021000.k12A0FRn023888@voyager.usenix.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Richard Westlake wrote: >> >> Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 20:39:20 -0800 (PST) >> From: Jennifer Davis >> Subject: [SAGE] Another organization question... >> >> Anyone heard of AFCOM before? Possible members? Are their white papers >> any good? >> >> http://www.afcom.com/ >> >> I'm just looking for more resources/information about planning/scoping >> out >> data centers and figuring out power/cooling needs and I found this >> organization. >> > > Jennifer > I cant help you with AFCOM, but I would be interested in any pointers or > links you have come across on data centre design and planning, > especially for smaller sites. > > There doesn't seem to be much material out there. I suppose not many > people get to design a data centre or server room or do it enough times > to write about it. > > This seems to be an problematic area where sys admin, electrical > engineering, mechanical and structural engineering and other disciplines > all meet, > The only resources I found were > > The Sun Microsystems Data Center Site Planning Guide > http://docs-pdf.sun.com/805-5863-13/805-5863-13.pdf > > Sun Blueprints book > Enterprise data centre design and methodology by Rob Senvely > http://www.sun.com/books/catalog/snevely.xml > > and some white papers on the APC site > http://www.apc.com/tools/mytools/index.cfm?action=search&category=wp1 > > > A question for the list: > Is there a minimum size a before you can call something a data centre? > And if so what do you call any installation /site which is smaller? I'm of the opinion that Data Center is more about the approach than the size of the facilities. I've worked several places where the number of servers required would all fit in a single rack, but there was a wide range of levels of commitment to uptime, HVAC and electical load management, and planning for scaling up when the time came. I've also seen places with several racks of gear and no thought or resources for backup power, proper cooling, etc. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 2 12:25:49 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12KPnAe009545 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:25:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k12KPmNP009544 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:25:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtai04.charter.net (mtai04.charter.net [209.225.8.184]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12KPWAd009511 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:25:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxip33-10.charter.net ([10.20.203.73]) by mtai04.charter.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with ESMTP id <20060202202527.GPGP28761.mtai04.charter.net@mxip33-10.charter.net> for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:25:27 -0500 Received: from 68-117-186-14.dhcp.mtgm.al.charter.com (HELO mail.plainjoe.org) ([68.117.186.14]) by mxip33-10.charter.net with ESMTP; 02 Feb 2006 15:04:03 -0500 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAA+k= Received: from [127.0.0.1] (phzzbt.plainjoe.org [192.168.1.1]) by mail.plainjoe.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 655A52F0B3; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:04:01 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <43E265C0.6040707@samba.org> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:04:16 -0600 From: "Gerald (Jerry) Carter" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20060111) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Clay Ye Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Authentication of CVS in Linux against Active Directory References: <1f258c6a0602021145t5af2df89kf34232f061a02ff2@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f258c6a0602021145t5af2df89kf34232f061a02ff2@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Clay Ye wrote: > Hi, > I'm trying to setup authentication of CVS against Active Directory. In > the network, all users use Windows xp, and we are using Active > Directory on Windows 2003 server for authentication. We have a Linux > server as a CVS server. > > I did a google , from what I understand, there's two ways, > 1. use the PAM settings for cvs > 2. Microsoft has a Windows Services for UNIX, setup NIS in Linux to > authenticate users in Active Directory, and authenticate cvsup using > local users? > > So before I start work on this, I'd like to hear ideas or comments > from you. Are these two ways the right solutions? Which one is better? > Any other ways? Or CVS over ssh using GSSAPI. Although The PAM route is much easier. Inthat case you can use pam_ldap, pam_krb5, or pam_winbind. You will need some NSS service to make AD users and groups available on the Linux box though. Again, you could use SFU + nss_ldap or use Samba/Winbindd. cheers, jerry ===================================================================== I live in a Reply-to-All world. ----------------------- Samba ------- http://www.samba.org Centeris ----------- http://www.centeris.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFD4mXAIR7qMdg1EfYRAu8mAKDKxDBgOTt+jiSneA1nVbB7rgH4XwCfR4GF AbTw67h2/OwiHjz/Z8KygaM= =FidR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 2 12:31:41 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12KVfAe010197 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k12KVfwt010193 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from smilodon.rfc822.net (adsl-68-92-27-201.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net [68.92.27.201]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k12KVcAd010188 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:31:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by smilodon.rfc822.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id CE0B51B73C; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 14:31:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 14:31:37 -0600 From: Pete Ehlke To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Data centre design [was Another organization question] Message-ID: <20060202203137.GA27010@rfc822.net> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <200602021000.k12A0FRn023888@voyager.usenix.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: OUTLOOK ERROR: CPU fan clogged with chicken feathers. Avian flu virus? User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 20:05:27 +0000, Richard Westlake wrote: > >A question for the list: >Is there a minimum size a before you can call something a data centre? And IMHO, if it's got access controlled doors, raised flooring, dedicated power feeds with power protection, dedicated cooling with backup, and is self-contained, it's a data center. If it's got access controlled doors and it's *part of* a larger room that meets the rest of the criteria, it's a 'cage'. >if so what do you call any installation /site which is smaller? > 'nectartech' :-) -Pete From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 2 17:59:04 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k131wqAe018114 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:58:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k131wqh6018113 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:58:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.primushost.com (smtp3.primushost.com [209.58.220.67]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k131wXAe018093 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:58:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from nautilus.shore.net [207.244.124.104] by smtp3.primushost.com with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim) id 1F4qDT-0006qr-T6; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 20:58:27 -0500 Received: from jtm by nautilus.shore.net with local (Exim) id 1F4qDT-00070r-00; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 20:58:27 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 20:58:27 -0500 From: John Mahoney To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Data centre design [was Another organization question] Message-ID: <20060202205827.A26465@nautilus.shore.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 08:05:27PM +0000, Richard Westlake wrote: > Jennifer > I cant help you with AFCOM, but I would be interested in any pointers or > links you have come across on data centre design and planning, especially > for smaller sites. > > There doesn't seem to be much material out there. I suppose not many > people get to design a data centre or server room or do it enough times to > write about it. > > This seems to be an problematic area where sys admin, electrical > engineering, mechanical and structural engineering and other disciplines > all meet, > The only resources I found were > > The Sun Microsystems Data Center Site Planning Guide > http://docs-pdf.sun.com/805-5863-13/805-5863-13.pdf > > Sun Blueprints book > Enterprise data centre design and methodology by Rob Senvely > http://www.sun.com/books/catalog/snevely.xml > > and some white papers on the APC site > http://www.apc.com/tools/mytools/index.cfm?action=search&category=wp1 > > > A question for the list: > Is there a minimum size a before you can call something a data centre? And > if so what do you call any installation /site which is smaller? > > > Richard Westlake You might look at Thermal Guidelines for Data Processing Environments published by the American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-Conditioning Engineers, Inc (ASHRAE). It's general but gives you things to think about. We just finished designing and building a new data center at Harvard Medical School. Now that it's done, I wish we had more power and more cooling. We underestimated the power required to run an enclosure of 30+ 1U servers in a cluster. We are figuring that this configuration demands 10+ KW per enclosure. We thought we were generous when we designed the room around 3 to 4 KW/enclosure. Our blade enclosure is just getting started but it scares me. I am reading that this thing could demand 20+ KW. Cooling these high density heat sources is a real issue. We designed the room to allow for one perforated tile for the cool row. These high heat density configurations need rows that are at least 2 perforated tiles wide. (I also understand that power and heat densities are increasing, so the future will need even more cooling.) Make sure you seal off all holes (as well as you can) in your raised floor. You need this air in the cool row(s) not coming up through the holes you made for cable access. In general terms, we are using about 90 KW of power and have 36 tons of cooling. I sure wish I had more tons and more CFM... HTH -- John _________________________________________________________ John Mahoney jtm@shore.net From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 2 17:59:25 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k131xNAe018139 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:59:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k131xNvI018138 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:59:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.primushost.com (smtp1.primushost.com [209.58.220.65]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k131x9Ae018118 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:59:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from nautilus.shore.net [207.244.124.104] by smtp1.primushost.com with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim) id 1F4qDx-0006qi-8W; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 20:58:57 -0500 Received: from jtm by nautilus.shore.net with local (Exim) id 1F4qDw-00072m-00; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 20:58:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 20:58:56 -0500 From: John Mahoney To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] OpenNMS Message-ID: <20060202205856.B26465@nautilus.shore.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Feb 01, 2006 at 11:22:18PM -0500, Stephen Fulton wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm looking for opinions on OpenNMS. At the moment, we're using a > combination of NAGIOS for monitoring and Cacti for historical graphing, > but I'm beginning to sorely miss the usefulness of SNMP traps to more > quickly identify problems, including those not easily monitored by NAGIOS. > > >From my research into OpenNMS, I've found the there is a consensus that > it is not easy to set up. Before I invest my time and the money on a > dedicated box for this, I'd like to solicit opinions about it. I'm also > curious about how well it scales - number of hosts, services etc, that > it can handle. We're not a small shop, but we're not large either. > > I've also considered HP's OpenView, but I'm not convinced it's worth the > price, given that much what it can monitor is covered by OpenNMS, NAGIOS > etc. > > Thanks, > > -- > Stephen Fulton | We can be quick-witted At Harvard Medical School, I have only good things to say about OpenNMS. It takes effort to set up but it's not insurmountable. Buy the technical support. It should fit nearly everyone's budget and I always got excellent responses. We had used HP Openview. It's expensive and even taking advantage of hours of tech support, I was never able to make it do what I wanted. We used NAGIOS too. It works well and is fairly easy to implement but ONMS does more. I was particularly surprised and pleased with the way ONMS discovers services on nodes. After patching some SUN boxes I suddenly noticed that ONMS had discovered some new mail servers on our network. The SUN patches had kindly opened port 25 where it was NOT wanted. Same thing happens with web and other types of servers. Alas, my upper management decided we needed to use Sitescope with the perception that it would be faster to implement. It takes real effort to set up any monitoring software and implementation is not easier. -- John _________________________________________________________ John Mahoney jtm@shore.net From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 2 21:33:44 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k135XiAe022483 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:33:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k135Xh4r022481 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:33:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.205]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k135XeAd022472 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:33:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 67so805070wri for ; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:33:40 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=PnRFAcFZcEgGIbTi92FUMTzl5g7H/uei2+weRrpATCAw0oODqUdkhA0sOMB/QOybhdjA4mKgR8QdvW67WxYUGsGyfSULL852WNgfvqb3q87fjfWdBE89EAmnEibJzqGiywm4fhrqUi+gKARdQ7hEcILS8DA1VYaPR8hyJHA9fJs= Received: by 10.65.150.17 with SMTP id c17mr1204479qbo; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:33:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.52.5 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:33:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 00:33:40 -0500 From: Rodrick Brown To: SAGE mailing list Subject: [SAGE] Time Zones and Oracle RAC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k135XgAd022477 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We have an issue maybe someone here can help me fix, I would like to implement Oracle RAC but each node in RAC require all nodes to be in the same time zone from my limited understanding with RAC, by regulatory reasons some servers have to match the timezone of the market its handling requests for, the thing I have noticed with Oracle is that it will use the Time zone set by your Operating system, if we wanted to consolidate all of our database instances onto a RAC infrastrucuture how could we work around this issue? This is Oracle 10g on Solaris 10. -- Rodrick R. Brown Senior IT Architect http://www.rodrickbrown.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 2 23:04:55 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1374rAe024052 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 23:04:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1374q6X024051 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 23:04:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pproxy.gmail.com (pproxy.gmail.com [64.233.166.180]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1374jAd024041 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 23:04:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by pproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id b36so125514pyb for ; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 23:04:44 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ZdOnPGRhoFXPgmxujbMHJpXHhZH1GJ1ZVroci3Zqwfo/YaXgwPNIG74iQUmprcy2N5sgt1uBUkXx0S+KyKpqBc+5RxhWkwnwAmq1NWOdZWMfCsmc5GLyjSAckZCcZ+EoXSolVGldSbV/nsnFT8JvIbBDFPWjM99d0MlbK3jo9ak= Received: by 10.35.70.17 with SMTP id x17mr45541pyk; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 23:04:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.35.59.8 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 23:04:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 23:04:44 -0800 From: Dana Quinn Reply-To: danaq@pobox.com To: Rodrick Brown Subject: Re: [SAGE] Time Zones and Oracle RAC Cc: SAGE mailing list In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k1374pAd024047 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Solaris? Linux? On 2/2/06, Rodrick Brown wrote: > We have an issue maybe someone here can help me fix, I would like to > implement Oracle RAC but each node in RAC require all nodes to be in > the same time zone from my limited understanding with RAC, by > regulatory reasons some servers have to match the timezone of the > market its handling requests for, the thing I have noticed with Oracle > is that it will use the Time zone set by your Operating system, if we > wanted to consolidate all of our database instances onto a RAC > infrastrucuture how could we work around this issue? > > This is Oracle 10g on Solaris 10. > > -- > Rodrick R. Brown > Senior IT Architect > http://www.rodrickbrown.com > > -- Dana Quinn danaq@pobox.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 2 23:07:54 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1377rAe024305 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 23:07:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1377r3Z024304 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 23:07:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pproxy.gmail.com (pproxy.gmail.com [64.233.166.183]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1377kAd024294 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 23:07:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by pproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id b36so125585pyb for ; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 23:07:44 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=AynaEXnvcLop+eLf4QL6U9BZSi87vYIGUHRB0oQmtJ20mK/jAw3yaKZlQETNGKZcnRmgBPtXjRvu8lsbluLAcrKh5Kf9Sx2xpbKaocNv8qtsnteYyPQoTapmP7xgt3MWGlV13tee7PvwUznxiSP/ZmAddy+AbO4wETe8flv7AZw= Received: by 10.35.60.15 with SMTP id n15mr45547pyk; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 23:07:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.35.59.8 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 23:07:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 23:07:44 -0800 From: Dana Quinn Reply-To: danaq@pobox.com To: Rodrick Brown Subject: Re: [SAGE] Time Zones and Oracle RAC Cc: SAGE mailing list In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k1377pAd024297 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk wow - i'm an idiot. Solaris 10. anyway, I thought I had read that with Solaris system time was kept in utc, and that timezone was almost more an environmental thing. So, possibly each database application could run in the different time zone it needs? which might not still be enough for you... since I made such a moron of myself, I'll try to make it up by asking a friend of mine who used to be an oracle support person on RAC... dana On 2/2/06, Dana Quinn wrote: > Solaris? Linux? > > On 2/2/06, Rodrick Brown wrote: > > We have an issue maybe someone here can help me fix, I would like to > > implement Oracle RAC but each node in RAC require all nodes to be in > > the same time zone from my limited understanding with RAC, by > > regulatory reasons some servers have to match the timezone of the > > market its handling requests for, the thing I have noticed with Oracle > > is that it will use the Time zone set by your Operating system, if we > > wanted to consolidate all of our database instances onto a RAC > > infrastrucuture how could we work around this issue? > > > > This is Oracle 10g on Solaris 10. > > > > -- > > Rodrick R. Brown > > Senior IT Architect > > http://www.rodrickbrown.com > > > > > > > -- > Dana Quinn > danaq@pobox.com > -- Dana Quinn danaq@pobox.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 00:54:34 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k138sWAe008105 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 00:54:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k138sWZ5008104 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 00:54:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from SMTP.fjellnett.no (smtp.fjellnett.no [213.236.231.139]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id k138sTAd008097 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 00:54:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from 82.147.63.3 by SMTP.fjellnett.no (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Fri, 03 Feb 2006 09:55:35 +0100 Subject: [SAGE] Dell vs. HP laser printers From: Erling Ringen Elvsrud To: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 09:54:30 +0100 Message-Id: <1138956870.7813.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hello, Many of the printers where I work are cheap Dell 1700n laser printers. One of them constantly jams after only about 4500 pages and on its second toner box. It is a very cheap printer and I start to doubt if it is reliable enough for our use. What kind of experiences do you have with cheap Dell laser printers? As printing is one of the most important services for my users it is very important that it works well. I consider to buy HP printers from now on as the have a good reputation as far as I have noticed. As a replacement for the Dell in question I consider to buy a HP LaserJet 1320tn. Have anyone experiences with this model? Best regards, Erling Ringen Elvsrud From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 01:05:17 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1395HAe008588 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 01:05:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1395GGS008587 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 01:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.tuatha.org (foobar@camulus.tuatha.org [217.114.172.22]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1395EAd008575 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 01:05:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.150.67] (dsl-46-61.dsl.netsource.ie [213.79.46.61]) by mail.tuatha.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24CEC10006; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:05:03 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1138956870.7813.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1138956870.7813.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Colm Buckley Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dell vs. HP laser printers Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:05:03 +0000 To: Erling Ringen Elvsrud X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 3 Feb 2006, at 08:54, Erling Ringen Elvsrud wrote: > What kind of experiences do you have with cheap Dell laser printers? Nutshell version; they're not very good. Dell are fairly new to this race; they're badging OEM printers from a variety of different sources (Kyocera and Lexmark, IIRC) with the result that their product line is not very unified in terms of common parts, common job control language, etc. The printers themselves are also of variable quality; some of them are very fiddly and hard to maintain, others just seem to have poor manufacturing tolerances, leading to jams etc. They are *outstandingly* cheap to purchase and run, however - and I think that they're making considerable headway in the home printer market. HP printers are generally quite expensive, but HP have one outstanding advantage; they have been in the printer business for a *long* time, and their current models have all been through roughly ten generations of refinement and progress, and a lot of the pain has been removed from them as a result; common maintenance tasks like unjamming, toner or drum replacement etc are generally about as easy as they can be. The ubiquity of HP printers also means that it's easy to find service, parts and supplies. I do think that Dell will be catching up very rapidly; they don't at all like to leave money on the table once they catch sight of it - witness their rapid progress in the small network switch market. After another generation or two of Dell printers, I expect this to be a much tougher call to make. > As a replacement for the Dell in question I consider to buy a HP > LaserJet 1320tn. Have anyone experiences with this model? It's not one I have direct experience with, but HP's entry-level range is generally pretty good. Not as good as their pro ranges (if you can justify the cost, the LaserJet 4250n or 4250tn is probably the beast to go for - it's a superb small workgroup printer), but "you can't go wrong with HP" is a reasonable summary of the state of the laser printer market at the moment. Colm -- Colm Buckley / colm@tuatha.org / +353 87 2469146 / www.colm.buckley.name From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 01:08:09 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13988Ae008821 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 01:08:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13988DD008819 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 01:08:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from SMTP.fjellnett.no (smtp.fjellnett.no [213.236.231.139]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id k13985Ad008811 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 01:08:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from 82.147.63.3 by SMTP.fjellnett.no (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Fri, 03 Feb 2006 10:09:06 +0100 Subject: DNS setup (was [SAGE] Hello, and a bunch of qestions) From: Erling Ringen Elvsrud To: brad@stop.mail-abuse.org Cc: sage-members@sage.org In-Reply-To: References: <1138707108.14297.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 10:08:00 +0100 Message-Id: <1138957680.15752.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk ty den 31.01.2006 klokka 12:58 (+0100) skreiv Brad Knowles: > At 12:31 PM +0100 2006-01-31, Erling Ringen Elvsrud wrote: > > > The largest site is 2 schools in the same area, with about 350 pupils > > and 40 teachers that have access to about 100 computers. Currently there > > is no local DNS server or NTP server. Do you think the benefits is great > > enough that it is worth my time to set up DNS and NTP? I have basic > > experience with both and enjoy working with both. > > With the number of machines you've got, you would definitely fall > into the category of sites that would be encouraged to set up some > internal time servers (which presumably make use of upstream time > servers from other sources), and then re-distribute that time locally > to all your clients. As a volunteer with the NTP Public Services > Project (including Postmaster, Listmaster, and PGP Keymaster duties), > I'll be glad to give you some advice in that area. > > The same is more or less true for the DNS -- with the number of > clients you have, it would be useful to have local caching/recursive > nameservers that all your machines could be configured to use. I've > been mucking about with DNS for a number of years (including being a > technical reviewer of 2nd edition of _DNS and BIND_), and I'll be > glad to give you advice on how to do this with a reasonable level of > security. I have decided to start with DNS and implement NTP and other services later. I do have the DNS and Bind book, and I think it is the 2nd edition as well. I need to reread it as it is quite a while since I worked with DNS (in a totally different setting, just playing around in my home network). The DNS will just be for local use as the network is not accessible from the internet and will use one of the ip-ranges reserved for such use. Which top level domain should I use? I probably should set up a primary and a secondary nameserver. As I'm used to Debian GNU/Linux I prefer to use it. I'll appreciate any advice. I will of course do my part trough reading, but It is always nice to be aware of major issues before I decide what kind of setup I will have. Best regards, Erling Ringen Elvsrud From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 01:17:37 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k139HbAe009418 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 01:17:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k139Hb8T009417 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 01:17:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.tuatha.org (foobar@camulus.tuatha.org [217.114.172.22]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k139HZAd009409 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 01:17:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.150.67] (dsl-46-61.dsl.netsource.ie [213.79.46.61]) by mail.tuatha.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF80F10006; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:17:34 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1138957680.15752.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1138707108.14297.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1138957680.15752.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Colm Buckley Subject: Re: DNS setup (was [SAGE] Hello, and a bunch of qestions) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:17:34 +0000 To: Erling Ringen Elvsrud X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 3 Feb 2006, at 09:08, Erling Ringen Elvsrud wrote: > The DNS will just be for local use as the network is not accessible > from > the internet and will use one of the ip-ranges reserved for such use. > > Which top level domain should I use? The most common practice would be to use a subdomain of your existing external domain - for example "internal.vagaungdomsskule.no". Your internal nameservers would be authoritative for this zone, and you would add NS delegation records to your internal nameservers to the nameservers which are authoritative for the main vagaungdomsskule.no domain. Suppose, for example, you chose 172.16.1.0/24 as the network range for your internal network (maybe 172.16.2.0/24 for your other building), and you installed Linux servers in each location to act as nameservers on the addresses 172.16.1.2 and 172.16.2.2. Make these the authoritative nameservers for the internal.vagaungsdomsskule.no domain - add the zone to BIND, including the records: @ IN NS ns1 @ IN NS ns2 ns1 IN A 172.16.1.2 ns2 IN A 172.16.2.2 In the external zone (vagaungdomsskule.no), you will need the records: internal IN NS ns1.internal internal IN NS ns2.internal and the "glue" records: ns1.internal IN A 172.16.1.2 ns2.internal IN A 172.16.2.2 (These are necessary whenever you set up nameservers for a domain which have addresses in that domain, otherwise there's no way for them to be found - chicken and egg problem.) As the internal zone and internal nameservers are on a non-routed address space (172.16), they will only be visible and accessible to hosts in that network space; you should set up network routing etc. accordingly. > I probably should set up a primary and a secondary nameserver. As > I'm used to Debian GNU/Linux I prefer to use it. That will be fine. Hope this helps, Colm -- Colm Buckley / colm@tuatha.org / +353 87 2469146 / www.colm.buckley.name From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 02:39:56 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13AdtAe011422 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 02:39:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13AdstW011421 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 02:39:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from diomedes.noc.ntua.gr (diomedes.noc.ntua.gr [147.102.222.220]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13AdeAd011404 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 02:39:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr (theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr [147.102.1.1]) by diomedes.noc.ntua.gr (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k13AdYS7021370; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:39:34 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from zvr@softlab.ece.ntua.gr) Received: from theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr (zvr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-3) with ESMTP id k13AdXEH006108 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:39:33 +0200 Received: (from zvr@localhost) by theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id k13AdXsG006105; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:39:33 +0200 Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:39:33 +0200 From: Alexios Zavras To: Erling Ringen Elvsrud Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: DNS setup (was [SAGE] Hello, and a bunch of qestions) Message-ID: <20060203103933.GE18168@softlab.ece.ntua.gr> References: <1138707108.14297.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1138957680.15752.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1138957680.15752.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Mail-Address: P.O. Box 24071, GR-111 10 Athens, GREECE X-Home-Address: 13, Lykoudi St., GR-111 41 Athens, GREECE X-Work-Phone: +30-2108203900 X-Work-Fax: +30-2108203909 X-Home-Phone: +30-2102010669 X-Home-Fax: +30-2102010669 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1273/Fri Feb 3 11:07:04 2006 on theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Erling Ringen Elvsrud wrote [edited]: > I do have the DNS and Bind book, and I think it is the 2nd > edition as well. If you're talking about the O'Reilly book by Albiz and Liu, please note that the latest is its Fourth edition (2001). -- -- zvr -- -- +---------------------------+ Alexios Zavras (-zvr-) | H eytyxia den exei enoxes | zvr@pobox.com +-----------------------zvr-+ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 03:10:05 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13BA4Ae012457 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 03:10:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13BA4Ur012456 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 03:10:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp101.his.com (smtp101.his.com [216.194.225.106]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13B9xAe012442 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 03:10:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by smtp101.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k13B9ref037724; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 06:09:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k13B9ofs046242; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 06:09:51 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1138957680.15752.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1138707108.14297.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1138957680.15752.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:48:56 +0100 To: Erling Ringen Elvsrud From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: DNS setup (was [SAGE] Hello, and a bunch of qestions) Cc: brad@stop.mail-abuse.org, sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on smtp101.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1273/Fri Feb 3 04:07:04 2006 on smtp101.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 10:08 AM +0100 2006-02-03, Erling Ringen Elvsrud wrote: > I have decided to start with DNS and implement NTP and other services > later. I wouldn't wait too long on doing NTP. We've got a section at the NTP Public Services Project entitled "Why is NTP Important" at , which I would encourage you to read. > I do have the DNS and Bind book, and I think it is the 2nd > edition as well. You want to make sure that you work with 4th edition, not 2nd. > The DNS will just be for local use as the network is not accessible from > the internet and will use one of the ip-ranges reserved for such use. > > Which top level domain should I use? I don't think that there is an officially designated TLD for this purpose, although I believe that standard practice may be to use ".LAN" or ".HOME" for such networks. > I probably should set up a primary and a secondary nameserver. As I'm > used to Debian GNU/Linux I prefer to use it. When you set up DNS, you should always set up at least a pair of servers. > I'll appreciate any advice. I will of course do my part trough reading, > but It is always nice to be aware of major issues before I decide what > kind of setup I will have. A good starting point is the Team Cymru "Secure BIND Template" at . -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 03:10:06 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13BA6Ae012471 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 03:10:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13BA5IF012470 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 03:10:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp103.his.com (smtp103.his.com [216.194.225.86]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13BA1Ae012448 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 03:10:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by smtp103.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k13B9xpd000347; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 06:09:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k13B9og0046242; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 06:09:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1138956870.7813.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1138956870.7813.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:09:43 +0100 To: Erling Ringen Elvsrud From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dell vs. HP laser printers Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on smtp103.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1273/Fri Feb 3 04:07:04 2006 on smtp103.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 9:54 AM +0100 2006-02-03, Erling Ringen Elvsrud wrote: > Many of the printers where I work are cheap Dell 1700n laser printers. > One of them constantly jams after only about 4500 pages and on its > second toner box. It is a very cheap printer and I start to doubt if it > is reliable enough for our use. > > What kind of experiences do you have with cheap Dell laser printers? Historically, Dell has a pattern of changing parts and parts suppliers for any given model of hardware they ship, without updating the model number or description of the device they sell. This means that a given example of Slarty Bartfast Device might accidentally be a real workhorse that is reliable under the most difficult of circumstances, and another given example of supposedly the same device is basically unusable. And if you lift the respective lids, you find that the two don't look anything remotely alike underneath. The only thing that matters to them is that they can get the new component for a tiny fraction of a penny cheaper per million, which means they can shave off a slight more profit per device they ship. > As printing is one of the most important services for my users it is > very important that it works well. I consider to buy HP printers from > now on as the have a good reputation as far as I have noticed. Take a look at the business model outlined above. You tell me whether or not you think that this is a good way to operate. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 03:10:40 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13BAcAe012621 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 03:10:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13BAc9N012619 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 03:10:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from util501.his.com (util501.his.com [216.194.216.35]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13BAXAe012589 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 03:10:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by util501.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k13B9ttd029083; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 06:09:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k13B9ofu046242; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 06:09:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:00:47 +0100 To: danaq@pobox.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] Time Zones and Oracle RAC Cc: Rodrick Brown , SAGE mailing list , Dana Quinn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on util501.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1273/Fri Feb 3 04:07:04 2006 on util501.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 11:07 PM -0800 2006-02-02, Dana Quinn wrote: > wow - i'm an idiot. Solaris 10. anyway, I thought > I had read that with Solaris system time was kept > in utc, and that timezone was almost more an > environmental thing. All versions of *nix have a system time zone, although this can be over-ridden and individuals can choose their own time zone setting. In my experience, it is best to run servers in UTC, and let users redefine their own TZ value in their login process. I can get into a detailed explanation if you want. > since I made such a moron of myself, I'll try to > make it up by asking a friend of mine who used > to be an oracle support person on RAC... Yeah, I'm not sure how time zones affect applications like RAC, or where certain other applications might need to be run in a given time zone. In the case of the OP, I'd be inclined to ask SAGE or LOPSA members who have worked for NASD or NASDAQ. I know one or two dc.sage (or former dc.sage) members who would fall into that category. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 04:23:14 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13CNDAe014775 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13CNDkh014774 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:23:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.tuatha.org (foobar@camulus.tuatha.org [217.114.172.22]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13CNBAd014767 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:23:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.28.3.54] (unknown [80.169.137.162]) by mail.tuatha.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 271B110006; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:23:10 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: References: <1138956870.7813.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <06B91767-7913-4092-8371-0720876C40EE@tuatha.org> Cc: Erling Ringen Elvsrud , sage-members@sage.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Colm Buckley Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dell vs. HP laser printers Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:22:36 +0000 To: Brad Knowles X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 3 Feb 2006, at 11:09, Brad Knowles wrote: > Historically, Dell has a pattern of changing parts and parts > suppliers for any given model of hardware they ship, without > updating the model number or description of the device they sell. For what it's worth, I think they've gotten much better at inventory and component management on their professional ranges; specifically the Optiplex, Latitude, Precision and PowerEdge systems. The "consumer" ranges (Dimension, Inspiron and PowerEdge SC) can still be a bit of a grab-bag. They're not perfect; sometimes firmware etc can get silent bumps which can cause hiccups on software which isn't covered by Dell's QA, but we have a large cohort of Optiplex, Precision and PowerEdge systems, and we're not seeing nearly the kind of component variety we'd been led to suspect. Colm -- Colm Buckley / colm@tuatha.org / +353 87 2469146 / www.colm.buckley.name From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 06:14:32 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13EEWAe017427 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 06:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13EEWYZ017426 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 06:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp01.lexi.com (smtp01.lexi.com [12.168.75.10]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13EESAd017417 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 06:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from unknown (HELO [172.16.3.2]) ([172.16.3.2]) by smtp01.lexi.com with ESMTP; 03 Feb 2006 09:14:27 -0500 X-SBRS-Score: None X-IronPort-AV: i="4.02,83,1139202000"; d="scan'208"; a="686116:sNHT28768792" Message-ID: <43E36542.6020905@lexi.com> Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 09:14:26 -0500 From: Brian Ruppert User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dell vs. HP laser printers References: <1138956870.7813.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1138956870.7813.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Erling Ringen Elvsrud wrote: > What kind of experiences do you have with cheap Dell laser printers? > > I've received four Dell laser printers as promotional deals when placing large orders for desktops and servers. The 1700n's we have generally work without trouble. We have two with about 6,000 pages on them, and one approaching 30,000 pages, and I haven't noticed any reliability issues with them. The only problem I have: a Windows 2000 hotfix from around Nov. 2005 broke the Windows 2000 drivers for the 1700n. Three months later, Dell has not fixed this problem, and the impression I get from other users on their forums is that Dell is completely uninterested in doing so. The 3100cn, their low-end color laser, has been one of the worst printing devices I've ever used. It jams every time you insert the paper tray. It can't pick up media in the multi-purpose tray more than about 25% of the time, and when it does, usually jams anyway. The back door is made out of flimsy plastic and doesn't seem to close properly. Without any sort of advance warning, the printer once stopped suddenly and informed us that the drum cartridge needed to be replaced, even though it was well short of the expected life. We're replacing our 3100cn with an HP unit. In a way, that incident turned out to be good - the complaints from our users showed us how important color printing is, and I think that helped me convince management that we should invest in a printer that's likely to be solid and reliable. -- *Brian Ruppert* Network and Systems Administrator 330.650.6506 PHONE 330.656.0239 DIRECT 330.656.4307 FAX www.lexi.com Lexi-Comp, Inc. - Improving Point-of-Care Decisions From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 09:06:01 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13H61Ae021688 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:06:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13H61QR021687 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:06:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13H5wAd021679 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:05:59 -0800 (PST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [SAGE] Dell vs. HP laser printers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:05:52 -0800 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Dell vs. HP laser printers Thread-Index: AcYooCdM90HixXa9S7ie7ZFX29rccgAQ53Qg From: "Dave Hilton" To: "Erling Ringen Elvsrud" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k13H60Ad021683 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk ERE, I have sworn by HP Laser printers since they first came out. Apple Lasers have always been OK, too. (They both use Canon engines). Recently we sprung for a Konica Minolta C351 - WOW ! It replaced an HP 8550 and I'll never look back...... Dave From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 09:23:11 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13HNAAe022412 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:23:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13HNAEC022411 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:23:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta14.mta.everyone.net (sitemail2.everyone.net [216.200.145.36]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13HN6Ad022404 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:23:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm18.mta.everyone.net (bigiplb-dsnat [172.16.0.19]) by omta14.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 622E04070F for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:23:05 -0800 (PST) X-Eon-Dm: dm18 Received: by dm18.mta.everyone.net (EON-AUTHRELAY2 - ac90dee5) id dm18.43e02acc.6e043 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:23:04 -0800 (PST) X-Eon-Sig: AQJ1pA1D45F4/XNLJwIAAAAB,8f76ee68b7f2ebaa731757d012dc0ae1 Subject: [SAGE] low end color laser printers From: Jack Coats To: sage-members@sage.org In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 11:19:49 -0600 Message-Id: <1138987189.7625.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I saw some Samsung (CLP-510N ?) cheap color laser at Sams some time ago that I was considering for home use. It did duplexing and was network ready (had its own NIC builtin). And 6ppm color and 24 b&w! I don't remember the model for sure but it was about $450 or so. It has 4 toner cartridges and 2 trays. I am guessing it has been end of life'd. Has anyone tried one of these? What kind of problems if any have you come across? I think the CLP-600 is supposed to replace it. Are there any other (even other brand) real color laser's in this price range? -- Jack Coats They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 09:31:34 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13HVXAe022794 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:31:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13HVXbt022793 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from permanently.misplaced.net (root@permanently.misplaced.net [63.231.235.20]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13HVUAd022786 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:31:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from permanently.misplaced.net (btoneill@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by permanently.misplaced.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13HVSZK015731 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:31:28 -0600 (CST) Received: (from btoneill@localhost) by permanently.misplaced.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13HVSf0015730 for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:31:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:31:28 -0600 From: "Brian T. O'Neill" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] iSCSI mirroring over WAN Message-ID: <20060203173128.GN16834@misplaced.net> Mail-Followup-To: "Brian T. O'Neill" , sage-members@usenix.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We have a need to replicate a filesystem in real/near-real time over a WAN for disaster recovery purposes. One of the ideas that came up is using software based mirroring with one of the plexs being an iSCSI connection over a WAN. Has anyone had any experience doing anything like this? If so, did you use Volume Manager? How much did it effect performance? Thanks, Brian -- btoneill@misplaced.net **************************************************************************** UNIX is simple and coherent, but it takes a genius (or at any rate a programmer) to understand and appreciate the simplicity." - Dennis Ritchie **************************************************************************** From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 09:42:35 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13HgXAe023361 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:42:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13HgWVP023360 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:42:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from Eng.Auburn.EDU (dns.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.10.13]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13HgTAd023351 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:42:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from netdir.eng.auburn.edu (IDENT:20663@netdir.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.12.3]) by Eng.Auburn.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13HgNOZ009393; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:42:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by netdir.eng.auburn.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.6.4) with ESMTP id k13HgLb09562; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:42:21 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: netdir.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:42:21 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: "Brian T. O'Neill" cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] iSCSI mirroring over WAN In-Reply-To: <20060203173128.GN16834@misplaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Brian T. O'Neill wrote: > We have a need to replicate a filesystem in real/near-real time over a > WAN for disaster recovery purposes. One of the ideas that came up is > using software based mirroring with one of the plexs being an iSCSI > connection over a WAN. Has anyone had any experience doing anything like > this? If so, did you use Volume Manager? How much did it effect > performance? > be very careful. If your db does synchronous writes, the latency on the WAN may kill you. This is why proper asynchronous replication products for disaster recovery (shareplex, Veritas Volume Replicator, EMC SDRF/A) are so ungodly expensive. If it's only 5 msec difference (that's not much of a WAN, more like a MAN), and your DB load isn't bad, you may be ok. We use VVR to replicate from phx to rochester in near realtime on our v880s (oracle, vvr, local SAN, sata arrays) using asynchronous replication. It's pretty close to real time. Synchronous would be unworkable. Doug From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 09:48:22 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13HmMAe023795 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:48:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13HmLBZ023794 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:48:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from permanently.misplaced.net (root@permanently.misplaced.net [63.231.235.20]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13HmIAd023787 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:48:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from permanently.misplaced.net (btoneill@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by permanently.misplaced.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13HmHZK016015; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:48:17 -0600 (CST) Received: (from btoneill@localhost) by permanently.misplaced.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13HmGo6016014; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:48:16 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:48:16 -0600 From: "Brian T. O'Neill" To: Doug Hughes Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] iSCSI mirroring over WAN Message-ID: <20060203174816.GP16834@misplaced.net> Mail-Followup-To: "Brian T. O'Neill" , Doug Hughes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <20060203173128.GN16834@misplaced.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Luckily it's not a db app app, it's an app that just opens a bunch of flat files. I wouldn't think of using this for a database :) VVR is one of the options we're looking at, along with SnapMirror/iSCSI with Netapps. Trying to find all possible options at this point. Thanks, Brian Quoting Doug Hughes (doug@eng.auburn.edu) from : > On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Brian T. O'Neill wrote: > > > We have a need to replicate a filesystem in real/near-real time over a > > WAN for disaster recovery purposes. One of the ideas that came up is > > using software based mirroring with one of the plexs being an iSCSI > > connection over a WAN. Has anyone had any experience doing anything like > > this? If so, did you use Volume Manager? How much did it effect > > performance? > > > > be very careful. If your db does synchronous writes, the latency on the > WAN may kill you. This is why proper asynchronous replication products > for disaster recovery (shareplex, Veritas Volume Replicator, EMC SDRF/A) > are so ungodly expensive. > > If it's only 5 msec difference (that's not much of a WAN, more like a > MAN), and your DB load isn't bad, you may be ok. > > We use VVR to replicate from phx to rochester in near realtime on our v880s > (oracle, vvr, local SAN, sata arrays) using asynchronous replication. > It's pretty close to real time. Synchronous would be unworkable. > > Doug -- btoneill@misplaced.net **************************************************************************** UNIX is simple and coherent, but it takes a genius (or at any rate a programmer) to understand and appreciate the simplicity." - Dennis Ritchie **************************************************************************** From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 11:01:49 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13J1mAe026020 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13J1mbq026019 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from way-too-hosed.mit.edu (WAY-TOO-HOSED.MIT.EDU [18.101.3.8]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13J1iAd026012 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:01:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from seph by way-too-hosed.mit.edu with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1F56Bh-0000lS-00; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:01:41 -0500 To: Erling Ringen Elvsrud Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: Dell vs. HP laser printers References: <1138956870.7813.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> From: seph Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:01:41 -0500 In-Reply-To: <1138956870.7813.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> (Erling Ringen Elvsrud's message of "Fri, 03 Feb 2006 09:54:30 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Erling Ringen Elvsrud writes: > What kind of experiences do you have with cheap Dell laser printers? I've got a 1710, it sees fairly light use (only 3000 pages in the last couple months), but it seems to hold up fine. I also have a 5100cn which seems fine too. I still don't really trust them as high volume printers, but as smaller ones I've got no complaints. > As printing is one of the most important services for my users it is > very important that it works well. I consider to buy HP printers from > now on as the have a good reputation as far as I have noticed. My experience with HP is that they are no longer what they used to be. They seem to have shifted away from rock solid printers to cheaper things that jam more often. > As a replacement for the Dell in question I consider to buy a > HP LaserJet 1320tn. Have anyone experiences with this model? I really don't like my laserjet 1300. It's slow, jams, and seems to have a fairly lame engine. seph From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 11:24:37 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13JObAe026712 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:24:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13JOah1026711 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:24:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13JOZAe026705 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:24:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13JOZ5s026704 for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:24:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.laika.com (smtp1.laika.com [209.162.219.6]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13IbmAe025489 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:37:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-av1.laika.com (smtp1.laika.com [10.111.222.6]) by smtp1.laika.com (8.13.0/8.13.0) with SMTP id k13IbPx2007791; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:37:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from exchange.wvs ([10.1.1.4]) by peacekeeper.laika.com ([10.111.222.60]) with SMTP (gateway) id A0734242F1B; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 10:37:25 -0800 Received: from 10.1.1.35 ([10.1.1.35]) by exchange.wvs ([10.1.1.4]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 18:37:14 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.1.051004 Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 10:37:13 -0800 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Data centre design [was Another organization question] From: Jonathan Rozes To: John Mahoney , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Data centre design [was Another organization question] Thread-Index: AcYo8NlTGBZdBpTkEdqWFAARJHZHzA== In-Reply-To: <20060202205827.A26465@nautilus.shore.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Scanned-By: milter-spamc/0.25.321 (smtp1.laika.com [10.111.222.6]); Fri, 03 Feb 2006 10:37:27 -0800 X-Spam-Status: NO, hits=0.00 required=6.00 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Report: Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 6.0 required) ____ pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- ____ Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 2/2/06 5:58 PM, "John Mahoney" wrote: > On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 08:05:27PM +0000, Richard Westlake wrote: > > Cooling these high density heat sources is a real issue. > We designed the room to allow for one perforated tile for > the cool row. These high heat density configurations need > rows that are at least 2 perforated tiles wide. (I also > understand that power and heat densities are increasing, > so the future will need even more cooling.) It gets worse. You can only get so much CFM through perforated tiles before the airflow becomes irregular and impossible to control. Liebert has a line of overhead heat exchangers designed to provide spot cooling in these types of situations. There are units that mount over a cold aisle or there's a smaller model that attaches directly to the top of a rack. The coolant is kept above dew point and escapes as a gas should a leak occur. The piping is modular and can be reconfigured without disrupting the system. Pumps are available that either connect to your chilled water system or directly to some kind of heat rejection. A single XDO16 (the overhead unit) can cool a 16kW load (at 2700 CFM) while consuming 372 watts. Alternatively, IBM (and probably others now) makes a rear door with a builtin heat exchanger. I wouldn't really recommend it though, unless you like water in your data center. Heat density is a big problem in our industry. The new data center we're planning may very well have as much space devoted to power and cooling as it does to computer equipment. The potential saving grace is that there finally seem to be signs coming from Intel and AMD that "ops per watt" matters. Jonathan -- Jonathan Rozes manager, information technology, LAIKA Inc. +1 503 225 1130 t +1 503 702 2067 m From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 12:15:36 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13KFZAe028616 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:15:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13KFZ5E028615 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:15:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (cliff.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.17]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13KFWAd028608 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:15:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (obie-8.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.8.15]) by mcs.anl.gov (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id k13KFC943072; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:15:12 -0600 Message-Id: <200602032015.k13KFC943072@mcs.anl.gov> To: Jonathan Rozes cc: John Mahoney , sage-members@usenix.org, rackow@mcs.anl.gov Subject: Re: [SAGE] Data centre design [was Another organization question] In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 03 Feb 2006 10:37:13 PST." Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:15:12 -0600 From: Gene Rackow Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We've been toosed for a bit of a loop with some of this as well. When a single rack is now taking 100 Amp 3 phase 208v power, you need something like 8Ton of cooling per rack. The current machine room plans start having 2 tiles minimum for the cold row and 3+ tiles for the hot side. It's no longer does the room have enough AC to handle the load, but is there enough air flow to get the heat away from the racks. It's really amazing how few vendors of rack mount equipment have even considered how to get the heat out of the racks. My theory in how they come up with the specs is that they take 1 machine, put it in the rack, and watch what happens. Add a little for just in case, then call it golden. They never consider the fact that when you start putting a machine on top and bottom of the one you are testing, there isn't that loss of heat to the air. Heat rises, so the machines in the top of the rack are now 20 to 40 degree F higher than that one sitting on the bottom by the nice cold floor. You really need to look at the floor tiles you have as well. I was amazed when actually looking at the air-flow rates of what makes it through those gratings. The rule of thumb I now go by is to sum the area of the holes then depending on design divide by 3 or 4. Lots of smaller holes == /4 You get killed by the side surface areas, corners and edges. So assuming you have a 2x2 panel with 50% grating, you'd think that's about 2sq of room for air. It's really only about .5sq of room for airflow. It's been some time since I checked things out with the velocity and flow meters. -_Gene Jonathan Rozes made the following keystrokes: >On 2/2/06 5:58 PM, "John Mahoney" wrote: > >> On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 08:05:27PM +0000, Richard Westlake wrote: >> >> Cooling these high density heat sources is a real issue. >> We designed the room to allow for one perforated tile for >> the cool row. These high heat density configurations need >> rows that are at least 2 perforated tiles wide. (I also >> understand that power and heat densities are increasing, >> so the future will need even more cooling.) > >It gets worse. You can only get so much CFM through perforated tiles before >the airflow becomes irregular and impossible to control. > >Liebert has a line of overhead heat exchangers designed to provide spot >cooling in these types of situations. There are units that mount over a cold >aisle or there's a smaller model that attaches directly to the top of a >rack. The coolant is kept above dew point and escapes as a gas should a leak >occur. The piping is modular and can be reconfigured without disrupting the >system. Pumps are available that either connect to your chilled water system >or directly to some kind of heat rejection. A single XDO16 (the overhead >unit) can cool a 16kW load (at 2700 CFM) while consuming 372 watts. > >Alternatively, IBM (and probably others now) makes a rear door with a >builtin heat exchanger. I wouldn't really recommend it though, unless you >like water in your data center. > >Heat density is a big problem in our industry. The new data center we're >planning may very well have as much space devoted to power and cooling as it >does to computer equipment. The potential saving grace is that there finally >seem to be signs coming from Intel and AMD that "ops per watt" matters. > >Jonathan > >-- >Jonathan Rozes >manager, information technology, LAIKA Inc. >+1 503 225 1130 t >+1 503 702 2067 m > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 13:05:47 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13L5lAe000054 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 13:05:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13L5lJp000053 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 13:05:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from zero.monsters.org (adsl-208-191-248-1.dsl.ltrkar.swbell.net [208.191.248.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13L5iAe000046 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 13:05:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from rodan.monsters.org (rodan.monsters.org [208.191.248.4]) (authenticated bits=0) by zero.monsters.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k13L5gbA003385; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:05:43 -0600 Subject: Re: DNS setup (was [SAGE] Hello, and a bunch of qestions) From: Stephen L Johnson To: Erling Ringen Elvsrud Cc: sage-members@sage.org In-Reply-To: <1138957680.15752.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1138707108.14297.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1138957680.15752.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:06:22 -0600 Message-Id: <1139000783.25223.19.camel@rodan.monsters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 (2.2.3-2.fc4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 2006-02-03 at 10:08 +0100, Erling Ringen Elvsrud wrote: > I have decided to start with DNS and implement NTP and other services > later. I will go along wit Brad suggest that you implement NTP soonish. NTP isn't that difficult to setup in the setup you've described, in my opinion. The DNS servers would make excellent NTP servers as well. > The DNS will just be for local use as the network is not accessible from > the internet and will use one of the ip-ranges reserved for such use. > > Which top level domain should I use? You have two choices in setting up a private authoritative zone. Once is to use whatever TLD you want. You will want to make it something that will not collide with the public DNS name space. You second choice proceed as through the network will be part of the public DNS space. You start with a public DNS domain and setup sub domains for sites from there. The advantage of the second method is that is make it much easier to actually become part of the public Internet. Just a few changes to the name servers are needed. I choose the private TLD method for setup DNS for a intranet of a company I used to work for. Several years later I hard to merge my DNS namespace with the company's public DNS namespace. It was quite a bit more work than if I had went with a sub-domain of the company's public DNS domain. > I probably should set up a primary and a secondary nameserver. As I'm > used to Debian GNU/Linux I prefer to use it. Definately need to have at least 2 name servers setup for client. You should have problems with Debian. Their BIND package default configurations are quite reasonable. (Unless they have massively changed within the past few months). -- Stephen L Johnson From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 13:48:14 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13LmCAe001576 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 13:48:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13LmCq4001575 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 13:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from util501.his.com (util501.his.com [216.194.216.35]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13Lm6Ae001565 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 13:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by util501.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k13Lm2U4003587; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:48:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k13LlwV6083254; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:48:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1139000783.25223.19.camel@rodan.monsters.org> References: <1138707108.14297.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1138957680.15752.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1139000783.25223.19.camel@rodan.monsters.org> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 22:33:07 +0100 To: Stephen L Johnson From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: DNS setup (was [SAGE] Hello, and a bunch of qestions) Cc: Erling Ringen Elvsrud , sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on util501.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.88, clamav-milter version 0.87 on util501.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 3:06 PM -0600 2006-02-03, Stephen L Johnson wrote: >> Which top level domain should I use? > > You have two choices in setting up a private authoritative zone. Once is > to use whatever TLD you want. You will want to make it something that > will not collide with the public DNS name space. You second choice > proceed as through the network will be part of the public DNS space. You > start with a public DNS domain and setup sub domains for sites from > there. The advantage of the second method is that is make it much easier > to actually become part of the public Internet. Just a few changes to > the name servers are needed. The second choice is definitely my recommendation. I count as one of my highest achievements in my entire career the fact that I convinced the network manager of the classified DoD SIPRnet to use DNS instead of flat HOSTS.TXT files, to use real IP addresses issued by what was then the only NIC in existence, and to plan everything as if they would have their classified network connected to the Internet in the future and that they would *NOT* want to rename or renumber the entire network. > Definately need to have at least 2 name servers setup for client. You > should have problems with Debian. Their BIND package default > configurations are quite reasonable. (Unless they have massively changed > within the past few months). Hmm.... "You should have problems with Debian"? ;) Seriously, take a look at the Team Cymru Secure BIND Template. They cover a lot of things that you wouldn't think are important, but turn out to be good to protect yourself against. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 14:05:19 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13M5IAe002247 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:05:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13M5IvP002244 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:05:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxsf40.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf40.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.172]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13M5DAd002232 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net (mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.142]) by mxsf40.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k13M545T024730 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:05:06 -0500 Received: from 66-189-53-50.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com (HELO jfsnew) (66.189.53.50) by mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 03 Feb 2006 17:05:02 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.02,85,1139202000"; d="scan'208"; a="2106377005:sNHT2032900818" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17379.54154.462190.180753@smtp.charter.net> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:04:58 -0500 From: "John Stoffel" To: "Brian T. O'Neill" Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] iSCSI mirroring over WAN In-Reply-To: <20060203173128.GN16834@misplaced.net> References: <20060203173128.GN16834@misplaced.net> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.4.1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Brian> We have a need to replicate a filesystem in real/near-real time over a Brian> WAN for disaster recovery purposes. One of the ideas that came up is Brian> using software based mirroring with one of the plexs being an iSCSI Brian> connection over a WAN. Has anyone had any experience doing anything like Brian> this? If so, did you use Volume Manager? How much did it effect Brian> performance? It will all depend on your WANs RTT (Round Trip Time) and bandwidth. You're going to have to tweak your tcp settings to raise the TCP Window Size on both ends. Be prepared to spend time and energy on this, since it's not simple. Look for my previous messages on this from about two or three months ago. I've finally managed to get some good numbers (using bbcp) to move data across country, but it's not easy. You might need to invest in Peribits if you can't tune your OS or Application to be the performance you need. You'll also need to have a filesystem which allows you to do all this, such as a NetApp with SnapMirror, or possbily VxVM. The key is to only send over the changes you need to send, and nothing more. The initial copy will kill you if it's large and you don't have a big enough pipe. At that point, you'll have to either 1) fedex tapes or 2) mirror over a LAN and then ship the box. Neither is easy. John From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 14:50:07 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13Mo7Ae003565 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13Mo7Up003564 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from Eng.Auburn.EDU (dns.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.10.13]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13Mo4Ad003556 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:50:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from netdir.eng.auburn.edu (IDENT:20663@netdir.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.12.3]) by Eng.Auburn.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13MnvOZ020171; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:49:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by netdir.eng.auburn.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.6.4) with ESMTP id k13Mnux09662; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:49:56 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: netdir.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:49:55 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: John Stoffel cc: "Brian T. O'Neill" , Subject: Re: [SAGE] iSCSI mirroring over WAN In-Reply-To: <17379.54154.462190.180753@smtp.charter.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, John Stoffel wrote: > You might need to invest in Peribits if you can't tune your OS or > Application to be the performance you need. FWIW: peribit was bought by Juniper also HyperIP by netex (we're looking at these to compress oracle vvr replicationby 68%) also Webspy/Exinda also F5 wanjet (nee SwanLabs) also orbital data also Cisco Peribit scales well horizontallby by throwing more hardware at it to compress more streams but doesn't scale as well vertically. If you only have one big thing to compress (e.g. replicatino traffic) the peribit won't do as well as something like a HyperIP or Exinda/Webspy. Peribit (and others, but particularly perbit because of SATA drives) of remembering patterns and sending a unique 'checksum' to the remote side which decodes it from a stored block of data. Most of them offer something of this nature, but Peribit is unique in the use of 400GB SATA drives to cache a huge number of blocks. Most of the rest do it stricly in RAM which limits you to blocks that will fit in about 2G. Needless to say, their claims of compression of up to 90% are because of this 'remembering blocks' and it doesn't mean squat when you are replicating constant DB updates. What you want (what we are getting) is pure unadulterated compression, and they all do similar compression algorithms so it just depends how compressible your data is. To get a rough idea collect a big chunk of your data and run gzip -6 on it. For this kind of replication compression you just need the compression unit with the fastest CPU you can get. Don't let them fool you that the extra memory/disk benefits are going to help you at all. Swanlabs used to have a travelling roadshow - compression in a box, that they'd bring to your office to demonstrate. Not sure if f5 carries on that tradition. The rest will send you demo units, and well they should considering the price. To get the equivalent of OC-3 compression you'll spend about $80k for a minimal configuration with single units on each end. (VRRP type failover is available at a price) Pay attention to how they measure things too. All the ones I've talked to in detail about it license on the outbound (compressed) side and license in tiers. Above your tier they rate limit. So if you get an 80Mbps unit, you can put out 80Mbps of compressed data. If you get 3.65:1 compression like we do, you can max it out at about 292 mbits/sec on the input side (gigabit ethernet) Exinda/Webspy (same box, webspy is a reseller) and peribit offer redundancy in terms of a special cut-through mode on the gige. If the box fails, it flips a switch inside that turns the input/output to a straight through connection between them. Each has its advantages and disadvantages in circumstances. (I did a *lot* of research on this recently, in case you can't tell. ;) Doug From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 15:38:26 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13NcPAe005036 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:38:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k13NcPA0005035 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:38:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from slick.sigje.org (rdns.222.240.218.216.fre.communitycolo.net [216.218.240.222]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k13NcNAe005028 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:38:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from sigje (helo=localhost) by slick.sigje.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1F5AVS-00034U-Rq; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:38:22 -0800 Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:38:22 -0800 (PST) From: Jennifer Davis To: baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk You want to put together a set of tools for your new team member who is coming on board. What do you put together? What tools do you assume that she will be borrowing from you (so it's not needed in duplication)? I'm talking about physical hardware here, and not anything software wise unless it's a floppy that you have copied over essential scripts. Thanks! Jennifer From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 16:22:55 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k140MtAe006525 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:22:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k140Mt5l006524 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:22:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.indeterminate.net (host-8.colo.spiretech.com [207.173.206.8]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k140MpAd006495 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:22:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from olivia.indeterminate.net (olivia.indeterminate.net [207.173.206.8]) by mail.indeterminate.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id k140MQ012065; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:22:26 -0800 Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:22:26 -0800 (PST) From: John Costello To: Jennifer Davis cc: baylisa@baylisa.org, Subject: [SAGE] Re: System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 'clamd / ClamAV version 0.65', clamav-milter version '0.60p' Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Jennifer Davis wrote: > You want to put together a set of tools for your new team member who is > coming on board. What do you put together? What tools do you assume that > she will be borrowing from you (so it's not needed in duplication)? I'm > talking about physical hardware here, and not anything software wise > unless it's a floppy that you have copied over essential scripts. I still favor the ThinkGeek Swiss Geek Knife, whenever I deal with hardware. It has torx bits, which were helpful when dealing with Macs (don't know if Macs still require torx). That is a spendy item, but it covers a lot of needs. Other tools depend on the task at hand. Crimpers are useful. Small flashlights are really nice when you are trying to find that screw that just fell into the hardware case, and a pair of tweezers to grab the screw. > Thanks! > > Jennifer ----- John Costello - cos at indeterminate dot net From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 16:48:02 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k140m2Ae007931 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:48:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k140m2e8007930 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:48:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [70.85.16.91]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k140loAd007915 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:47:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id E2C8D1A977; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 19:47:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 19:47:47 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Jennifer Davis Cc: baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: <20060204004747.GA16075@catbert.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hot Diggety! Jennifer Davis was rumored to have written: > > You want to put together a set of tools for your new team member who is > coming on board. What do you put together? What tools do you assume that > she will be borrowing from you (so it's not needed in duplication)? I'm > talking about physical hardware here, and not anything software wise > unless it's a floppy that you have copied over essential scripts. The most popular tools -- and the ones that often tries to walk away on their own (*cough*): - Leatherman Wave or Gerber utility multi-tool - If no multi-tool, then two pliers: one needlenose and one not - T-10 Torx screwdriver - Philips and flat-blade screwdrivers in various sizes - DB-9/RJ-45 adapter - DB-25/RJ-45 adapter - DB-9 cable (both ends) - DB-25 cable (both ends) - DB-9 gender adapter - DB-25 gender adapter - DB-9-to-DB-25 cable - Spare Cat5e Ethernet cable - Spare Cat5e crossover Ethernet cable - Spare RJ-11 telephone cable - USB-to-DB9 adapter - *Good* ratcheting crimper like the Ideal for RJ-45 - Bag of 10-32 clip-nuts - Bag of 10-32 screws - Bag of RJ-45 ends - Little cable stripper tool - Several OS CDROMs that can be used to boot or do installs - Laptop with a CD or DVD burner, and wireless + ethernet + modem - Extra laptop battery - Spare 110V 15A AC U.S. power cord (NEMA 5P-15) - Laptop AC adapter - 5+ spare CD-R blanks (or DVD-R blanks) - Sharpie felt-tip ink pen - Post-It sticky notes - A small spool of tape (for impromptu labelling) - Simple 110V AC @ 15A voltmeter/ammeter like the Kill-A-Watt That's what I tend to have in my laptop bag, and can resolve pretty much anything given that, except for the more estoteric problems. The stuff above should run about USD $300, not including the laptop. One can share utility tool and crimper, but they often seem to walk away. *ESPECIALLY* the Leatherman... I'm sorry to say that it would seem someone at a past conference was too enamored with someone else's Leatherman and took it in under sixty seconds. Ever since then, the owner has kept his replacement firmly chained to his belt and refuses to loan it out. The Gerber is often just as much liked, too. :) (For the record, I have both.) A label printer + AC adapter is often handy, too. But this can usually be kept on-site and shared. There's others... pager, cell/mobile phone, Blackberry, spare batteries, etc. A digital camera (or in a pinch, a mobile phone with a built-in camera, though the resolution is usually crappy) is sometimes handy, for troubleshooting problems or showing to management specific layout issues, or for documenting rack layout for colleagues at other sites. If you exclude the utility tool and crimper + screws + nuts + RJ-45 ends + laptop + 'misc others' stuff, what's left is perhaps around USD $50-60, give or take a bit? It's probably ok to keep utility tool + crimper + Kill-A-Watt related stuff on-site, perhaps in a padlocked toolbox or closet, as a compromise between accessibility and expense (and is also a reasonable anti-theft action). Though, I would definitely make sure there's at least two or three sets of screwdrivers so that multiple people can do things like racking a system easily. They're cheap enough, anyway; can get a nice Sears Craftsman or Black & Decker set for anywhere between USD $10 to $80. Occasionally, raw DB-9 or DB-25 adapters, not wired, is useful for making custom adapters with a particular pinout... but I don't really find the need to do that very often at all, so it's not in my bag. On-site, though. In a big hurry, my bare bones laptop bag list would have: - Leatherman Wave or Gerber utility multi-tool - T-10 Torx screwdriver - Philips and flat-blade screwdrivers in a few common sizes - DB-9/RJ-45 adapter - DB-9 cable (both ends) - Spare Cat5e Ethernet cable - Spare Cat5e crossover Ethernet cable - USB-to-DB9 adapter (if laptop doesn't have a DB9 serial port) - Several OS CDROMs that can be used to boot or do installs - Laptop with a CD or DVD burner, and wireless + ethernet + modem - Laptop AC adapter One last thing... regarding screwdrivers, definitely go for *good* quality screwdrivers because it can sometimes be a lot of agony otherwise. Sears Craftsman is a pretty decent line, and there's several other good ones but names escapes me at the moment. I also like to have a good grip-type handle and is ratcheting (in either direction) for extra leverage in certain situations. (Then I go and have a little talk with whomever played 'Popeye' [the sailor] by overtightening screws in the first place!) -Dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 16:54:51 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k140spAe008344 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:54:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k140spBr008343 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:54:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from igtc.igtc.com (igtc.igtc.com [66.166.73.180]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k140snAd008337 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:54:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by igtc.igtc.com (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 3FDE363467; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:54:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:54:44 -0800 From: "Paul M. Moriarty" To: Jennifer Davis Cc: baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: <20060204005444.GU24496@igtc.igtc.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk A Craftsman 12 pc Micro Tech Precision Screwdriver set. Usually, if I can't fix something with the assorted slotted, phillips and tox drivers in the set, I'll need tools that are better kept in a shared toolbox. - Paul - From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 16:55:24 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k140tMAe008443 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:55:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k140tMXo008442 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:55:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp101.his.com (smtp101.his.com [216.194.225.106]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k140tJAe008436 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:55:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by smtp101.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k140svYX097009; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 19:54:57 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k140smcJ092265; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 19:54:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20060204004747.GA16075@catbert.org> References: <20060204004747.GA16075@catbert.org> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 01:54:42 +0100 To: Dan Foster From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: Jennifer Davis , baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on smtp101.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1275/Fri Feb 3 13:00:42 2006 on smtp101.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 7:47 PM -0500 2006-02-03, Dan Foster wrote: > (Then I go and have a little talk with whomever played 'Popeye' [the > sailor] by overtightening screws in the first place!) You mean the guy who used the cordless screwdriver, or better yet the cordless drill with screwdriver bits? I've got a nice Black & Decker 18V that I like to use.... I haven't been able to find many cordless drills that have a higher capacity battery, or a larger diameter chuck throat (to take larger diameter bits). -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 17:25:12 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k141PCAe009667 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:25:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k141PCUj009666 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:25:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k141P9Ad009654 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:25:10 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:25:03 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Thread-Index: AcYpG1eUqR8S1p01R+iBvovFBoimYgADRQ/w From: "Dave Hilton" To: "Jennifer Davis" , , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k141PBAd009662 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I wish I knew how to dig through the Archives - we solved this about three years ago. Dan Foster's list is about as good as I've seen. I go heavy on non-metallic flashlights, cordless soldering pencil, chop sticks (yes, chop sticks - they are non-metallic and can reach into the smallest places to retreive dust bunnies, screws, hair, paper tags, etc.), telephone/network toner, A/C toner, linesmens' headset (bed of nails & RJ connectors), static grounding straps (wrist, box and mat), dust mask (I have asthma), camel hair paint brush, and my trusty Think Geek "STFU" coffee cup. I also carry an overly-large one-hander lockback knife - great when I need a little extra elbow room :) Gruddy aka Dave Hilton Network Administrator entelos(r) Foster City, CA Clarity in The Age of Plausible Reality From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 17:41:55 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k141ftAe010312 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:41:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k141ftmh010311 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:41:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from slick.sigje.org (rdns.222.240.218.216.fre.communitycolo.net [216.218.240.222]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k141fpAe010306 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:41:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sigje (helo=localhost) by slick.sigje.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1F5CQw-0003iD-0j; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 17:41:50 -0800 Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:41:49 -0800 (PST) From: Jennifer Davis To: Dave Hilton cc: baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > I wish I knew how to dig through the Archives - we solved this about > three years ago. The evil plan is to actually summarize up all the discussion into a list and then put it up on some website and then people can comment more on it and update as needed. Does it make sense to organize it into a Basic kit ..and if you work with Sparc equipment x y z ..and if you work with IBM equipment x y z ..and if you work with SAN equipment x y z ..and if you work with network equipment ... etc. Jennifer From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 17:46:49 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k141kmAe010728 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:46:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k141kmO8010727 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:46:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [70.85.16.91]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k141kkAd010720 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:46:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id ADDC91A977; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 20:46:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 20:46:44 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Alan Horn Cc: Dan Foster , Jennifer Davis , baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: <20060204014644.GA21465@catbert.org> References: <20060204004747.GA16075@catbert.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hot Diggety! Alan Horn was rumored to have written: > > >A label printer + AC adapter is often handy, too. But this can usually > >be kept on-site and shared. > > No, because you can never find it when you need it, and labelling is so > essential that this needs to be something people have *no* difficulty > laying their hands on. We solved that problem by chaining it (with a long chain) to a padlock. :) So now it is accessible to all, but cannot be removed from the site -- therefore, we don't run the risk of it being unavailable at a bad time. I did, however, buy my own USD $30 portable label printer for my laptop bag, and most of the tools in my bag. So now I don't really care if not-my-stuff walks off -- let it be a lesson about diligence in securing items, while it not impeding my work. I've also noticed that some people uses 15mm labels; they need to be at least 30mm (or even larger) to be reasonably visible from a distance. Becomes more important in a reasonably large computer room for locating offending hardware when scanning rows and racks. Labels also don't seem to be all of equal quality -- some labels' adhesive will peel off quickly when exposed to nearby vented hot air from the system chassis, and some will last forever. > Also, giving people their own labeller inspires them to take ownership of > the labelling problem. That's true. Here, we have it as a checklist item for the turnup checklist that must be completed prior to considering it production. -Dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 17:59:24 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k141xMAe011307 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:59:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k141xM8D011306 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:59:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from vega.opentrend.net (vega.opentrend.net [65.39.131.100]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k141xKAd011299 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vega.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C01C958012F7; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 20:54:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from vega.opentrend.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (vega [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31320-07; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 20:54:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimosa.opentrend.net (unknown [192.168.120.11]) by vega.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E53E58012F4; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 20:54:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by mimosa.opentrend.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EA8D61CC8119; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 20:59:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mimosa.opentrend.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55161CC8115; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 20:59:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 20:59:18 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Brockway To: baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at opentrend.net Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Dave Hilton wrote: > Dan Foster's list is about as good as I've seen. I go heavy on > non-metallic flashlights, cordless soldering pencil, chop sticks (yes, > chop sticks - they are non-metallic and can reach into the smallest Along these lines,I recommend a small mirror. A mirror (preferably one that can be extended away from you) is invaluable for seeing behind badly positioned boxes to replug cables, etc. Small "lipstick/makeup mirrors" are perfect for this. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support@opentrend.net Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 18:52:42 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k142qgAe012732 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 18:52:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k142qf2u012731 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 18:52:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from Eng.Auburn.EDU (dns.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.10.13]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k142qdAd012723 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 18:52:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from netdir.eng.auburn.edu (netdir.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.12.3]) by Eng.Auburn.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k142q7OZ027702; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 20:52:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by netdir.eng.auburn.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.6.4) with ESMTP id k142q5h09725; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 20:52:05 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: netdir.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 20:52:05 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: Robert Brockway cc: baylisa@baylisa.org, Subject: RE: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Dave Hilton wrote: > > > Dan Foster's list is about as good as I've seen. I go heavy on > > non-metallic flashlights, cordless soldering pencil, chop sticks (yes, > > chop sticks - they are non-metallic and can reach into the smallest > > Along these lines,I recommend a small mirror. A mirror (preferably one > that can be extended away from you) is invaluable for seeing behind badly > positioned boxes to replug cables, etc. Small "lipstick/makeup mirrors" > are perfect for this. $.99 at autozone at the checkout is a little dentist-sized mirror that comes with a telescoping handle that lets it reach about 18" and a mirror head that you can adjust to any angle. It also has a pocket clip. One of the best sysadmin tool investments I ever made. You can even use it, along with a flashlight, to read the serial number on the bottom of a 1U netra when there is only about .5" between the netras in the rack. Doug From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 21:22:53 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k145MqAe016416 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:22:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k145MqJh016415 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:22:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (cliff.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.17]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k145MoAd016409 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:22:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (harley.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.11.69]) by mcs.anl.gov (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id k145MR9152776; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 23:22:27 -0600 Message-Id: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> To: Doug Hughes cc: Robert Brockway , baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org, rackow@mcs.anl.gov Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 03 Feb 2006 20:52:05 CST." Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:22:27 -0600 From: Gene Rackow Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk As many have indicated, the Leatherman is the first thing in the kit. I've had mine for over 20 years now. Next come some forceps or very thin long pliers. I prefer the loop handles as it makes it very easy to grab the loose item, then lock the handle and you are set. Cable ties of various sizes. Need a temporary brake for the the wheels on a rack. Put a wide tie around the base of the wheel and pull tight. After that in the toolkit goes a number of dental tools or their look-alike replacement. small mirror on a handle, tiny picks and probes, small curved pointy things. A small magnet on an extendable shaft for getting that wild screw. A small flashlight of the same type when you need a light in an odd place. Next, a small package of blue-tack. That stuff you use to put up posters, etc. Put a small piece on a dental probe and you can pick up that screw you dropped. Another piece on the screwdriver and you can get that screw back in the hole. A good set of interchangable bits (torx, allen, phillips, etc) A screwdriver style handle and a wrench style handle for them. A selection of cables and cable ends and adapters. db-9 to cat5 db-25, etc. USB-serial. --Gene From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 22:37:04 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k146b3Ae017888 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 22:37:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k146b3sq017887 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 22:37:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.starshine.org (www.starshine.org [216.240.40.167]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k146b0Ad017880 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 22:37:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.starshine.org (mercury.starshine.org [216.240.40.182]) by mx.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 696714B; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 22:32:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mercury.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7DFB920039; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 22:36:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 22:36:56 -0800 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Dan Foster , Jennifer Davis , baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: <20060204063656.GC20628@starshine.org> References: <20060204004747.GA16075@catbert.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 From: jimd@starshine.org (Jim Dennis) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 01:54:42AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 7:47 PM -0500 2006-02-03, Dan Foster wrote: >> (Then I go and have a little talk with whomever played 'Popeye' [the >> sailor] by overtightening screws in the first place!) > You mean the guy who used the cordless screwdriver, or better yet > the cordless drill with screwdriver bits? > I've got a nice Black & Decker 18V that I like to use.... I > haven't been able to find many cordless drills that have a higher > capacity battery, or a larger diameter chuck throat (to take larger > diameter bits). My father, who is in his mid-sixties and is still an active construction worker --- general contractor and electrician, was just telling me about the neatest innovation in cordless screw guns --- impact drivers! He mentioned that it drives even the long 3" drywalls screws right into even the gnarliest old wood with hardly any effort, and never strips out the heads. NOT recommended for our work --- but I couldn't resist sharing. (On the other hand I bet that puppy in reverse would loosen any screw some idjet overtightened, too! :)). -- Jim Dennis From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 22:37:59 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k146bxAe017954 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 22:37:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k146bxif017953 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 22:37:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net (imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.59.64]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k146buAd017939 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 22:37:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from ibm58aec.bellsouth.net ([72.155.40.91]) by imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net with ESMTP id <20060204063750.PEM5432.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net@ibm58aec.bellsouth.net> for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 01:37:50 -0500 Received: from sri.com ([72.155.40.91]) by ibm58aec.bellsouth.net with ESMTP id <20060204063750.ILQV9142.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net@sri.com> for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 01:37:50 -0500 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: Message from Gene Rackow of "Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:22:27 CST." <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 01:37:50 -0500 From: Ted Nolan Message-Id: <20060204063750.ILQV9142.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net@sri.com> Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In message <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov>you write: >As many have indicated, the Leatherman is the first thing in the kit. >I've had mine for over 20 years now. > I remember one of our guys telling me, this was pre-google, probably altavista days, that he had lost his Leatherman and done an online search for a replacement. He got some _interesting_ hits... I always found paperclips to be very useful, but they're common enough that you don't have to carry them.. Ted From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 22:41:45 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k146fhAe018396 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 22:41:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k146fhoH018395 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 22:41:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail4.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail4.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.6]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k146feAe018374 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 22:41:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3037 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2006 06:41:33 -0000 Received: from d149-67-147-152.col.wideopenwest.com (HELO [172.16.1.3]) (dgregor@[67.149.152.147]) (envelope-sender ) by mail4.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with RC4-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 4 Feb 2006 06:41:32 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: References: <20060204004747.GA16075@catbert.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <223491D5-277F-47AD-B8A6-9D428F00DF75@gregor.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: DJ Gregor Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 01:41:27 -0500 To: SAGE mailing list X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Brad's mention of a cordless screwdriver/drill, reminded me of my favorite pick. The Dewalt cordless screwdriver is the king of power tools for the sysadmin's tool chest, IMHO: http://www.dewalt.com/us/products/tool_detail.asp?productID=2739 It's high-quality, well-balanced, powerful, has an adjustable clutch with a great range, and comes with two batteries and a quick charger. I find it to be much better than everything else I've used for sysadmin work, from the cheaper cordless screwdrivers (where we tended to kill one about every six months) to cordless drills (which just tend to be too darn heavy and awkward for the most common tasks I end up working on). It's the best $99 I've ever spent on a tool. Seriously. - djg On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:54 PM, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 7:47 PM -0500 2006-02-03, Dan Foster wrote: > >> (Then I go and have a little talk with whomever played 'Popeye' [the >> sailor] by overtightening screws in the first place!) > > You mean the guy who used the cordless screwdriver, or better yet > the cordless drill with screwdriver bits? > > I've got a nice Black & Decker 18V that I like to use.... I > haven't been able to find many cordless drills that have a higher > capacity battery, or a larger diameter chuck throat (to take larger > diameter bits). From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 3 23:00:58 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1470vAe019200 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 23:00:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1470v39019199 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 23:00:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [70.85.16.91]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1470tAd019189 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 23:00:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id 130911A977; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 02:00:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 02:00:49 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: John Costello Cc: Jennifer Davis , baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Re: System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: <20060204070049.GA3433@catbert.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hot Diggety! John Costello was rumored to have written: > > Small flashlights are really nice when you are trying to find that > screw that just fell into the hardware case, and a pair of tweezers to > grab the screw. Sometimes the screw announces itself in a rather dramatic fashion. :-) I'll *never*, _EVER_ forget the night, some 12 years ago, when I was working by myself at a former employer. I might not remember everything these days, but a few things are permanently etched in... I don't recall the exact circumstances behind this, but I had some compelling reason to notice a desktop PC case was loose -- I was probably relocating it a short distance away, and discovered the case came off during this? That's the best I can figure what happened. Well, that motion apparently jarred a precariously not-really-screwed-in screw loose. It immediately fell into the inside. There was an amazing arcing -- bluish (like what you see when Lando shoots out the reactor core at the end of Star Wars: Episode VI...), then all power went out on the entire floor of a large 12 floor commercial building, not just my office. :-) Given that I was literally the only occupant at midnight, I don't think anyone else noticed or grumbled about the power outage on my floor. My colleagues knew, though, since pages immediately went off -- that, plus, I had located my boss to make sure the problem was known. Turns out the screw that fell had contacted the mercury switch -- part of the 'power button' system, and had briefly allowed an infinite amount of electricity in. Something *had* to give, so a couple of milliseconds later, the big industrial fuses kicked in. It was then that I discovered our critical systems and related gear were indeed still on due to a very well planned data center-quality UPS setup (vs the cheap residential UPS gear), and lasted long enough for us to get someone on-site to check the fuses and reset them. Not a single server, router, switch, or modem burped throughout all this. In fact, the beady red lights from the hundreds of the modems was my only light source for a while. Not a single user was the wiser. Ever since then... I've been very reluctant to even move a little PC workstation 3' away short of completely shutting it down, however inconvenient and seemingly unnecessary. Somebody whom hasn't lived through 'interesting' events just simply won't understand the reason why I'm so seemingly nitpicky about certain things at times... -Dan (Subsequently, I also politely asked my colleagues to please keep everything reasonably screwed in, even the $300 desktops' cases... I think I mentioned something about not wanting anybody to collect on my life insurance? :-) ) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 4 00:55:09 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k148t8Ae000436 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 00:55:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k148t8l1000435 for sage-members-0utGoign; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 00:55:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from slick.sigje.org (rdns.222.240.218.216.fre.communitycolo.net [216.218.240.222]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k148t6Ae000425 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 00:55:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from sigje (helo=localhost) by slick.sigje.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1F5JCD-0004PH-JR for sage-members@sage.org; Sat, 04 Feb 2006 00:55:05 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 00:55:05 -0800 (PST) From: Jennifer Davis To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Interesting reading .. Disaster Recovery, Data Retention, .. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Amazing the interesting stuff you can find out when you actually start looking at Disaster Recovery planning: http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-34/sp800-34.pdf Contingency Planning Guide for Information Technology Systems, from NIST I picked that off from http://www.drj.com/new2dr/samples.htm which lists quite a few university type sample disaster recovery plans. Earlier today I was reading Dave Hitz's blog (NetApp blogger) at http://blogs.netapp.com/dave/, and it's been a few weeks since I have caught up on his writing. The content that was relevant here was the Data Retention Policy posting on January 10. There are these fuzzy SOX compliance issues (Yes, I know I attended that great tutorial at LISA, but I need to refresh my brain, and do a little more research.. ) as to whether you need to save email. Then there is this concept of how long should you save email. Who whould be dictating policy? and then if you are saving it, where are you saving it? Is email part of a companies critical business data? (Not necessarily IT..but Sales, Engineers, or Support team.. all of these groups have interfaces out into the world at large and interactions with your people). How do you individually feel when you are asked to look through someone's email for a particular piece of email (that may or may not exist)? Clearly written policies about data retention in general seem to be part of the key to this.. as to what happens to home directory files, email, whatever when an individual leaves. Jennifer From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 4 01:59:36 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k149xZAe002383 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 01:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k149xZEX002382 for sage-members-0utGoign; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 01:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp103.his.com (smtp103.his.com [216.194.225.86]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k149xWAe002374 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 01:59:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by smtp103.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k149xF3v095583; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 04:59:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k149xCfn030143; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 04:59:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20060204063656.GC20628@starshine.org> References: <20060204004747.GA16075@catbert.org> <20060204063656.GC20628@starshine.org> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 10:42:47 +0100 To: jimd@starshine.org (Jim Dennis) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: Brad Knowles , Dan Foster , Jennifer Davis , baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on smtp103.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1275/Fri Feb 3 13:00:42 2006 on smtp103.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 10:36 PM -0800 2006-02-03, Jim Dennis wrote: > My father, who is in his mid-sixties and is still an active > construction worker --- general contractor and electrician, was > just telling me about the neatest innovation in cordless screw > guns --- impact drivers! Do you mean a hammer drill? I've got a nice DeWalt that I'm going to have to leave here in Europe, because it's corded and is not adaptable to US power. But I've only ever used it to drill into masonry, concrete, or bricks -- never with drywall screws into wood. I'd be curious to learn more about this particular usage.... -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 4 10:41:17 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k14IfGAe012220 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 10:41:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k14IfGXv012219 for sage-members-0utGoign; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 10:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp101.his.com (smtp101.his.com [216.194.225.106]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k14If7Ae012207 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 10:41:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by smtp101.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k14IeqcK062402; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 13:40:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k14IeT4M063478; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 13:40:51 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <43E4D91C.7090906@chycoski.com> References: <20060204004747.GA16075@catbert.org> <20060204063656.GC20628@starshine.org> <43E4D91C.7090906@chycoski.com> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 19:37:03 +0100 To: rskiadmin@chycoski.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: Brad Knowles , Jim Dennis , Dan Foster , Jennifer Davis , baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on smtp101.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1276/Sat Feb 4 10:29:35 2006 on smtp101.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 8:41 AM -0800 2006-02-04, Richard Chycoski wrote: > An impact driver (or wrench) is a little different - it supplies 'spikes' > of rotational force, not vertical impact. They are common in automotive > work, especially in air tools - the tool that you see mechanics use to > remove and install tires is an impact wrench. Ahh, yes -- an impact wrench. Sorry, I didn't make the connection with driving drywall screws. My cousins were helping to build race cars for a local dirt track in Memphis before they could walk, and I've certainly seen my share of races as well. Once you've heard an impact wrench, you'll never forget the sound. > There are electrical > versions of impact drivers too. Go to http://www.harborfreight.com and > look up 'impact wrench' and 'hammer drill' - they're good for lots of > other tools too! (I'm not affiliated with them but I am a happy > customer. Plastic welders, anyone?) Cool. I'll need to buy a number of replacement tools when I move to the US,so I'll want to keep companies like this in mind. > I have (and use) a lot more tools than a typical sysadmin, and this is > part of the issue - the tools that you need are the tools that you are > comfortable with. My father was a sheet metal mechanic, boat builder > and carpenter, and I learned to use a wide range of tools from the time > I could walk. My grandfather was a master cabinet maker, and my dad was technical director of a variety of small university theaters while I was growing up, and before I was out of grade school I was using 12V and 14V Makita cordless drills, cold chisels, pneumatic nail guns, band saws, saber saws, circular saws, router/shapers, etc.... In high school I was introduced to the oxy-acetalene brazing and cutting torch, although I still wasn't old enough to use the big honking table saw by myself. > Of course, if you're asking what kind of tools you need for a newhire, > it's unlikely that you're dealing with an 'uber' tool user - when I > started my first job in computing, I had to tell my bosses what tools > I wanted to order, not the other way around. They didn't quite understand > why I needed aircraft tinsnips until they saw how I used them. (:-) Yeah, I do find it funny that although I'm a software guy, in many places I end up being the default hardware guy because I've got more and better tools than most businesses and I'm not afraid to bring in what I've got. > I would expect to be using the full range > of my mechanical skills in a small company, but when you have tens of > thousands of people working with you, the sysadmins do much less > mechanical work, hence the need for a small range of tools. Correct. The smaller the site, the more you would be likely to need to be a generalist (including hardware), and vice-versa. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 4 13:22:39 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k14LMcAe015641 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 13:22:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k14LMcMu015640 for sage-members-0utGoign; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 13:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.starshine.org (www.starshine.org [216.240.40.167]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k14LMYAd015635 for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 13:22:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.starshine.org (mercury.starshine.org [216.240.40.182]) by mx.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A5414B; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 13:18:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mercury.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1FD4820039; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 13:22:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 13:22:18 -0800 To: Andreas Gerler Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Linux NFSROOT and fallout Message-ID: <20060204212218.GG20628@starshine.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 From: jimd@starshine.org (Jim Dennis) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Jan 29, 2006 at 05:40:35PM +0100, Andreas Gerler wrote: > Hi! > We run some diskless servers at work. > NFSRoot, pxelinux-netboot. kernel 2.6. eepro100 / eepro1000 NICs. 1GB Ram. > Most of the time its great. 1 setup for all nodes. But sometimes we get a > fallout. If we connect a screen to the box we have just a black screen. > The syslog on our sylogserver doesn't tell something usefull. > Has somebody made experiences like that? Any solution out there? > I have spent multiple hours searching the web. Nothing found till now. > One "solution" i install next week will be a usb-power outlet. pinging > these nodes and on failout power off / power on to bring them back. I > would prefer a real solution but what shall i do? > so long... > Andreas Gerler You don't say which version of the 2.6 kernel you're running. However, it's encouraging that your running 2.6.anything. I can't offer advice on the NFS issue itself. However, I can suggest that you look at 2.6.15 or 2.6.16 just for this little gem right here: SUNRPC: Ensure that SIGKILL will always terminate a synchronous RPC call. ...and make sure that the "intr" flag also enables SIGHUP and SIGTERM to interrupt RPC calls too (as per the Solaris implementation). http://lwn.net/Articles/166664/ ... and: http://lwn.net/Articles/166954/ (Of course I don't know that the intr mount option would be useful for an NFSROOT filesystem --- but it might make sense for all of your other mounts). I can also suggest a couple of things for troubleshooting: First: add setterm -blank 0 to your start up scripts, so the screen will never be blanked; I'd do it as something like: openvt -fsc 12 setterm -blank 0 ... and add /dev/tty12 to your syslog.conf; so all your log messages will be copied to a virtual console that will never blank and you'll be able to see them when you hook up the crash cart. (I used to use setterm -blank 0 > /dev/ttyX --- but that doesn't seem to work anymore I have my theories about that, but openvt works just fine. BTW: even if the console is unresponsive to keyboard input, sometimes the screen will unblank if you unplug and reconnect one of your ethernet devices. However, it's better to just set the blanking policy when you're talking about servers that are on KVMs or that normally have not monitors attached. Next: enable "Magic SysRq" So you can try to get some diagnostics from the machine after you drag over the crash cart and even if all of user space is completely wedged. http://www.developertutorials.com/tutorials/linux/magic-sysrq-050503/page1.html Also I'd seriously consider enabling the panic= timeout; to force the system to reboot automatically after a kernel panic. Of course that's a context dependent decision ... depends on whether it's more important to bring the failed server back online or to have an opportunity for further troubleshooting and analysis. Likewise with enabling the watchdog timer features (using the kernel "software watchdog" if your hardware doesn't currently support a hardware watchdog driver). I personally recommend the Debian watchdog daemon for the user space side of this. (The user space "pets" the watchdog periodically to keep it at bay ... if user space becomes to unresponsive for the daemon to talk to /dev/watchdog ... then the system is rebooted ... either by the watchdog timer strobing the reset line on the bus ... or by the kernel rebooting in the case of the "software watchdog." The advantages of the Debian watchdog daemon are: * It has a suite of several built-in sanity checks that are quite reasonable: malloc(), fork(), kill() ... basically it checks that it can get memory, spawn a child process, send and receive signals, open a file. These tests ensure that we aren't suffering from full process or file descriptor tables, etc. There are optional tests to ensure that traffic is flowing over one or more of you interfaces, and to ping a specific address (such as your router); and it supports temperature monitoring (if your hardware supports it) and load limiting. * It can call custom test scripts/binaries * On most error conditions it can call a custom repair script which can attempt to resolve the problem automatically * It will usually attempt to do a clean shutdown and reboot (using it's own built-in shutdown code. So even if the system is thrashing too badly to run /sbin/shutdown the watchdog daemon should still usually work In other words they thought about the requirements and design a little bit. (I routinely use alien to convert this into RPM format, and I've recommended to Red Hat Inc. and SuSE on a few occasions that they need to include this in their base distributions). Finally you might consider looking at the Red Hat netdump patches and utilities. These could be used to capture panic/crash data (possibly manually invoked via the additional "crash" magic SysRq option for cases where the console is "hung" but the kernel hasn't panic'd. Hope that helps. -- Jim Dennis From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 4 22:03:36 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1563aAe023779 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 22:03:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1563ZMP023778 for sage-members-0utGoign; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 22:03:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1563YAe023770 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 22:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1563Xl0023769 for sage-members@usenix.org; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 22:03:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from collie.msbit.com (nfw.msbit.com [64.170.147.162]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k141qXAe011192 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:52:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (collie-local [127.0.0.1]) by collie.msbit.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id k141qSKG016442; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:52:28 -0800 Subject: RE: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. From: Nick Stoughton To: Dave Hilton Cc: Jennifer Davis , baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1139017947.10292.417.camel@collie> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6 Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 17:52:27 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 2006-02-03 at 17:25, Dave Hilton wrote: > I wish I knew how to dig through the Archives - we solved this about > three years ago. > In 2003 ... See http://www.sage.org/mailarchive/sage-members-archive/2003/msg01975.html for the thread root of that discussion! -- Nick Stoughton From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 4 22:11:46 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k156BkAe024174 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 22:11:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k156BjVm024168 for sage-members-0utGoign; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 22:11:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k156BiAe024162 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 22:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k156Bi5u024161 for sage-members@usenix.org; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 22:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from slick.sigje.org (rdns.222.240.218.216.fre.communitycolo.net [216.218.240.222]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k141TcAe009980 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:29:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by slick.sigje.org with esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1F5CCb-0003fW-Lf; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 17:27:01 -0800 Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:27:01 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Horn X-X-Sender: ahorn@slick.sigje.org To: Dan Foster cc: Jennifer Davis , baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: <20060204004747.GA16075@catbert.org> Message-ID: References: <20060204004747.GA16075@catbert.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > > A label printer + AC adapter is often handy, too. But this can usually > be kept on-site and shared. > No, because you can never find it when you need it, and labelling is so essential that this needs to be something people have *no* difficulty laying their hands on. Also, giving people their own labeller inspires them to take ownership of the labelling problem. Cheers, Al From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 4 22:18:25 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k156IPAe024592 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 22:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k156IPci024591 for sage-members-0utGoign; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 22:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k156INAe024584 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 22:18:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k156INYP024582 for sage-members@usenix.org; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 22:18:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k14GfEAd009990 for ; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 08:41:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Feb 2006 08:41:09 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.02,88,1139212800"; d="scan'208"; a="1773423372:sNHT32156468" Received: from [10.25.88.4] (sjc-rac-vpn3.cisco.com [10.25.88.4]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with SMTP id k14Gf5c1023969; Sat, 4 Feb 2006 08:41:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43E4D91C.7090906@chycoski.com> Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 08:41:00 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski Reply-To: rskiadmin@chycoski.com User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles CC: Jim Dennis , Dan Foster , Jennifer Davis , baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <20060204004747.GA16075@catbert.org> <20060204063656.GC20628@starshine.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk An impact driver (or wrench) is a little different - it supplies 'spikes' of rotational force, not vertical impact. They are common in automotive work, especially in air tools - the tool that you see mechanics use to remove and install tires is an impact wrench. There are electrical versions of impact drivers too. Go to http://www.harborfreight.com and look up 'impact wrench' and 'hammer drill' - they're good for lots of other tools too! (I'm not affiliated with them but I am a happy customer. Plastic welders, anyone?) I have (and use) a lot more tools than a typical sysadmin, and this is part of the issue - the tools that you need are the tools that you are comfortable with. My father was a sheet metal mechanic, boat builder and carpenter, and I learned to use a wide range of tools from the time I could walk. Others who do not have the same kind of facility with tools can live with a small subset of what I prefer to use. Of course, if you're asking what kind of tools you need for a newhire, it's unlikely that you're dealing with an 'uber' tool user - when I started my first job in computing, I had to tell my bosses what tools I wanted to order, not the other way around. They didn't quite understand why I needed aircraft tinsnips until they saw how I used them. (:-) For people who have a less mechanical background, a *good* multiscrewdriver (e.g. Picquic), a #2 Phillips driver, a couple of flat drivers, a crescent wrench, and a pair of pliers is what most of them need. It seems that I'm the one they come to for more esoteric mechanical problems around my office (I wonder why? :-). Electronic tools can be similarly basic - an inexpensive volt-ohm-meter, and possibly a tone generator and inductive receiver (for tracing cables) are good to have around - but could be shared tools as well. A simple 'neon tester' is handy for quickly identifying if an outlet has power, and is smaller to carry around than a voltmeter. The kinds of tools you should recommend does depend on your organisation as well - at a large company, the range of what you do is often much smaller than in a small company. I would expect to be using the full range of my mechanical skills in a small company, but when you have tens of thousands of people working with you, the sysadmins do much less mechanical work, hence the need for a small range of tools. - Richard Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:36 PM -0800 2006-02-03, Jim Dennis wrote: > >> My father, who is in his mid-sixties and is still an active >> construction worker --- general contractor and electrician, was >> just telling me about the neatest innovation in cordless screw >> guns --- impact drivers! > > > Do you mean a hammer drill? I've got a nice DeWalt that I'm going > to have to leave here in Europe, because it's corded and is not > adaptable to US power. But I've only ever used it to drill into > masonry, concrete, or bricks -- never with drywall screws into wood. I'd > be curious to learn more about this particular usage.... > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Feb 5 16:01:50 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1601mAe027884 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 5 Feb 2006 16:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1601ml0027883 for sage-members-0utGoign; Sun, 5 Feb 2006 16:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from zero.monsters.org (adsl-208-191-248-1.dsl.ltrkar.swbell.net [208.191.248.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1601jAe027875 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 5 Feb 2006 16:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from rodan.monsters.org (rodan.monsters.org [208.191.248.4]) (authenticated bits=0) by zero.monsters.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k1601hxr001546; Sun, 5 Feb 2006 18:01:44 -0600 Subject: Re: DNS setup (was [SAGE] Hello, and a bunch of qestions) From: Stephen L Johnson To: sage-members@sage.org Cc: Erling Ringen Elvsrud In-Reply-To: References: <1138707108.14297.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1138957680.15752.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1139000783.25223.19.camel@rodan.monsters.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 18:02:25 -0600 Message-Id: <1139184145.7715.4.camel@rodan.monsters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 (2.2.3-2.fc4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 2006-02-03 at 22:33 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 3:06 PM -0600 2006-02-03, Stephen L Johnson wrote: > > > Definately need to have at least 2 name servers setup for client. You > > should have problems with Debian. Their BIND package default > > configurations are quite reasonable. (Unless they have massively changed > > within the past few months). > > Hmm.... "You should have problems with Debian"? ;) Gah! You should NOT have problems... I hate it when I leave out words like that. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 09:02:57 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16H2vAe026039 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:02:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16H2v8N026038 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:02:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.198]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16H2sAd026029 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:02:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id t10so939313wxc for ; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 09:02:53 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=thWxT/n7d/2AGl3uXEY0mj1drN+bz5NKUekWGVCp085vkWrZGY/eo4tXyzaXXHbzbFvLafOPigVwrqJbuYlal7lbydKNDdrsBTs0qcvBLutJLZmzTj/tdWOKd5b0VO7VNRps1ywtiPKbCCII5Y/b9yIjDo/aEssXbnC3pMJBXyc= Received: by 10.70.18.12 with SMTP id 12mr6066305wxr; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 09:02:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.37.3 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:02:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:02:53 -0800 From: Doug Hanks To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k16H2uAd026033 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk How many of you actually use all these hardware tools? I've been a SA for 8 years and I've never had to worry about hardware. We let the grunts that work for Sun or IBM support do all the hardware replacement. We've always had support contracts. The only time I remember messing with hardware is when I dealt with PCs. I remember that is the reason I moved to larger computing systems; I've loathed messing around with hardware. Just found it surprising that people still mess with hardware. Do you work for smaller companies that cannot afford support contracts or do you just enjoy working on hardware and your employer trusts you enough to stick a screwdriver in a million dollar server? Would that void the support contract? -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 09:12:59 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16HCwAe026472 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:12:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16HCwA2026470 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:12:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from wingfoot.org (caduceus.wingfoot.org [64.32.179.50]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16HCuAd026465 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:12:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wingfoot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0149A1F4406 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:12:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from wingfoot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (wingfoot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10042) with ESMTP id 32707-04 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:12:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.1.201.28] (unknown [66.155.166.179]) by wingfoot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB0381F4405 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:12:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 12:12:53 -0500 From: Glenn Sieb User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8) Gecko/20051201 Thunderbird/1.5 Mnenhy/0.7.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at wingfoot.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Doug Hanks wrote: > How many of you actually use all these hardware tools? I've been a SA > for 8 years and I've never had to worry about hardware. We let the > grunts that work for Sun or IBM support do all the hardware > replacement. We've always had support contracts. > > The only time I remember messing with hardware is when I dealt with > PCs. I remember that is the reason I moved to larger computing > systems; I've loathed messing around with hardware. > > Just found it surprising that people still mess with hardware. Do you > work for smaller companies that cannot afford support contracts or do > you just enjoy working on hardware and your employer trusts you enough > to stick a screwdriver in a million dollar server? Would that void > the support contract? > Could it be that most companies can't afford, or aren't willing to spend $1M on a server to begin with? Remember: Not everyone works for Fortune 500 companies... :) Best, --Glenn From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 09:24:44 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16HOiAe027292 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:24:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16HOiee027291 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:24:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16HOgAd027275 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:24:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Feb 2006 09:24:38 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.02,92,1139212800"; d="scan'208"; a="1773785450:sNHT29524740" Received: from [10.25.88.4] (sjc-rac-vpn3.cisco.com [10.25.88.4]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with SMTP id k16HOac1010345; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:24:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43E7864E.2010403@chycoski.com> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 09:24:30 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski Reply-To: rskiadmin@chycoski.com User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Hanks CC: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We're moving to the 'vendor does all the hardware' model, but even some large companies don't do that for all of their machines. Our 'lab' and 'preproduction' areas will still be hands-on even when the Data Centres are not. And my (former) employer trusted me to use tools and even to change chips in a million-dollar box the first week on the job - when I was a newbie at 19 years old! And that was when you could retire very comfortably (even in the SF Bay Area) on a million bucks! I prefer the vendor-managed-hardware solution, but we don't always get that luxury. I'd rather do the monkey-wrenching at home, where I have my air tools. The DC manager kinda frowns on me dragging an air compressor, impact wrench, and framing nailer into his domain. (:-) - Richard Doug Hanks wrote: > How many of you actually use all these hardware tools? I've been a SA > for 8 years and I've never had to worry about hardware. We let the > grunts that work for Sun or IBM support do all the hardware > replacement. We've always had support contracts. > > The only time I remember messing with hardware is when I dealt with > PCs. I remember that is the reason I moved to larger computing > systems; I've loathed messing around with hardware. > > Just found it surprising that people still mess with hardware. Do you > work for smaller companies that cannot afford support contracts or do > you just enjoy working on hardware and your employer trusts you enough > to stick a screwdriver in a million dollar server? Would that void > the support contract? > > -- > - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 09:27:27 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16HRRAe027511 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:27:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16HRQ5U027509 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:27:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from util501.his.com (util501.his.com [216.194.216.35]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16HRMAe027499 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:27:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by util501.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k16HRJCr019522; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:27:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k16HRD6O011772; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:27:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:27:07 +0100 To: Doug Hanks From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on util501.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.88, clamav-milter version 0.87 on util501.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 9:02 AM -0800 2006-02-06, Doug Hanks wrote: > How many of you actually use all these hardware tools? I've been a SA > for 8 years and I've never had to worry about hardware. We let the > grunts that work for Sun or IBM support do all the hardware > replacement. We've always had support contracts. When I worked at AOL in the Internet Mail Operations group, most of the hardware was handled by other groups. We told them how many machines we were authorized to have (which they would confirm), then a few days later they would tell us which computer room they were installed in and where in that room. They would also take care of adding the machines to the DNS. Still, once the machines were installed, if there was a hardware problem, we would go out and debug the problem on-the-spot with a "crash cart", including a glass terminal and various assorted cables. > Just found it surprising that people still mess with hardware. Do you > work for smaller companies that cannot afford support contracts or do > you just enjoy working on hardware and your employer trusts you enough > to stick a screwdriver in a million dollar server? Would that void > the support contract? When I was a consultant for the world's leading provider of chip lithography equipment (located outside of Eindhoven in the Netherlands, with ~3000 employees in the metropolitan area, and ~7000 employees world-wide), we were the only group who handled Unix servers, and we did all of our own hardware handling. On my first day there, they took me around to show me the widely varying bits of hardware they had, and among others I laid my own hands on the Sun E10k servers -- I was very careful to make sure I didn't touch anything that had the remotest chance of causing problems. I was never asked to do any work on the E10ks while I was there, but had I been asked to do any work on them, I would have done so without any formal training whatsoever, and probably without any kind of supervision required -- although I would have insisted on having someone along with me who had at least some recent hands-on experience. These are machines where the maintenance contract was over one million Euros per year. They did have reasonably well stocked local toolbox in each of the main computer rooms, and it was absolutely forbidden to remove any of the tools. They also had some interesting procedures for how you entered the computer rooms -- Not only was a badge required (and very few people had computer room access), you had to go through a man-trap single-person door, which helped to make sure that no computers or monitors went walkabout. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 09:27:44 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16HRhAe027586 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:27:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16HRhNC027585 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:27:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16HReAd027560 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:27:41 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:27:34 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Thread-Index: AcYpLCvB5oRb483OSA6Un4okD0xcXwCFlCPA From: "Dave Hilton" To: "Jennifer Davis" Cc: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k16HRgAd027578 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Jennifer, For a project like this - I would actually learn how to use a Wiki. Dave Hilton "The evil plan is to actually summarize up all the discussion into a list and then put it up on some website and then people can comment more on it and update as needed." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 09:35:37 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16HZbAe028340 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16HZaFe028339 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:35:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [70.85.16.91]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16HZXAd028332 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id 2C2C01A953; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:35:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:35:31 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Doug Hanks Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hot Diggety! Doug Hanks was rumored to have written: > How many of you actually use all these hardware tools? *raises hand* > I've been a SA for 8 years and I've never had to worry about hardware. You're pretty lucky, then. :) >From my list: - Leatherman Wave or Gerber utility multi-tool I use the knife (straight or serrated blade... usually serrated) to open shipping boxes. I use the pliers to deal with troublesome nuts. I use the wire stripper in a pinch for making cables. I use various other functionality as needed. - T-10 Torx screwdriver I use this *all* the time for removing dead drives and installing replacement drives in the hot-swap trays. I've got a small pile of about 30 dead drives (due to age) on my desk, and each required (IIRC) 6 Torx screws to remove... you better believe I put that T-10 driver to good use! ;) - Philips and flat-blade screwdrivers in various sizes I use this all the time to install systems into racks, or to install rack shelves... or to do CD drive swapouts in the desktop workstations - DB-9/RJ-45 adapter - DB-25/RJ-45 adapter - DB-9 cable (both ends) - DB-25 cable (both ends) - DB-9 gender adapter - DB-25 gender adapter - DB-9-to-DB-25 cable - USB-to-DB9 adapter Used for consoling a system that has really odd problems (Usually the console server is sufficient, but sometimes not.) - Spare Cat5e Ethernet cable - Spare Cat5e crossover Ethernet cable Used to work on certain systems such as disk arrays with a network front-end, to set (or reset) their IPs, like we did just the other day - Spare RJ-11 telephone cable Not used much these days, but sometimes I'm on the road and only have a PSTN connection, and need to dial into the office - *Good* ratcheting crimper like the Ideal for RJ-45 - Bag of RJ-45 ends - Little cable stripper tool I run network cables all the time - Bag of 10-32 clip-nuts - Bag of 10-32 screws This is for racking the systems, which we regularly do - Several OS CDROMs that can be used to boot or do installs Sometimes I can't Jumpstart/NIM/whatever a system due to ACLs, and sometimes it's just faster to physically throw a CD in a local on-site system to debug a problem. Did that just the other day for a large server. - Laptop with a CD or DVD burner, and wireless + ethernet + modem - Extra laptop battery - Laptop AC adapter Serves as a crash cart for local on-site work, and for remote access when away from the office - Spare 110V 15A AC U.S. power cord (NEMA 5P-15) Not required per se since we usually have piles of them - 5+ spare CD-R blanks (or DVD-R blanks) - Sharpie felt-tip ink pen Sometimes I need to do an emergency download + burn of a CD to resolve an issue... we did this with Solaris just the other day - Post-It sticky notes - A small spool of tape (for impromptu labelling) I've got to label cables before removing them for opening up a system chassis (e.g. to install cards) - Simple 110V AC @ 15A voltmeter/ammeter like the Kill-A-Watt We use them at various facilities all the time to help us better gauge sizing for planning new hardware turnups at various sites. We did that for our NYC facility just a short time ago. I very rarely need to open up our servers. When I do, it's usually to replace a disk adapter's cache battery, or to add a card. Sheer majority of these tools are to connect to/interface with systems or get them installed+wired up, do initial troubleshooting before opening hardware service calls with the vendor, and not to open them up per se. A few items, I rarely have need for -- extra AC power cord, RJ-11 phone cable, raw DB-9 or DB-25 unwired adapters. But pretty much use everything else very regularly. -Dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 09:39:05 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16Hd3Ae028673 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:39:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16Hd2fx028667 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:39:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta14.mta.everyone.net (sitemail2.everyone.net [216.200.145.36]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16HcxAd028643 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:38:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm16.mta.everyone.net (bigiplb-dsnat [172.16.0.19]) by omta14.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11282406A0 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:38:59 -0800 (PST) X-Eon-Dm: dm16 Received: by dm16.mta.everyone.net (EON-AUTHRELAY2 - 81aa1c22) id dm16.43e02ac4.b1c94 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:38:58 -0800 (PST) X-Eon-Sig: AQFR2g9D54my+Q8pLwIAAAAB,7841daaa9eeb797b301f993b20ea0b0b Message-ID: <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 12:39:46 -0500 From: Sarunas User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> In-Reply-To: <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.1.0 OpenPGP: id=53149FE6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Glenn Sieb wrote: <...> >> Just found it surprising that people still mess with hardware. Do you >> work for smaller companies that cannot afford support contracts or do >> you just enjoy working on hardware and your employer trusts you enough >> to stick a screwdriver in a million dollar server? Would that void >> the support contract? So you're still getting surprised afeter all those years, eh? :) If it doesn't involve tearing warranty stickers, I usually open all the new hardware that I order. It's quite interesting to check on what's inside, engineering decisions, assembly quality (especially looking from the perspective of 20 years or so) and what's where in case I'll need to upgrade/replace something. I prefer to do hardware troubleshooting/replacements/upgrades myself, whenever it's feasible. Sarunas Burdulis sysadmin (and a laser physicist too) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFD54niVVkpJ1MUn+YRAhoSAKCNjDUP8+I5eMAdKsBQbIgpb9RrJgCgkPpn HJXhBAkNFem0bOluTpsPwb8= =NLZd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 09:41:21 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16HfLAe028978 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:41:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16HfKR6028976 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:41:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from bushido.realityfailure.org (dsl093-119-032.blt1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.93.119.32]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16HfHAe028954 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:41:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from bushido (bushido [10.0.0.10]) by bushido.realityfailure.org (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id k16Hf474003973 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:41:06 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:41:04 -0500 (EST) From: John Jasen X-X-Sender: jjasen@bushido To: Dan Foster cc: Doug Hanks , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> Message-ID: References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.4 (bushido.realityfailure.org [10.0.0.10]); Mon, 06 Feb 2006 12:41:06 -0500 (EST) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I've seen the recommendations for the Leathermans and the Gerbers repeatedly. Interestingly enough, I agree with the generality of carrying a multitool, but I've found the SwissTool to be a better fit. Anyone else, or am I just odd? FWIW, I also think a single-purpose pocket knife is also a good idea. -- -- John E. Jasen (jjasen@realityfailure.org) -- No one will sorrow for me when I die, because those who would -- are dead already. -- Lan Mandragoran, The Wheel of Time, New Spring From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 09:49:55 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16HnqAe029584 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:49:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16HnqaB029583 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:49:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [70.85.16.91]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16HneAd029566 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:49:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id 826921A953; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:49:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:49:39 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: John Jasen Cc: Dan Foster , Doug Hanks , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: <20060206174939.GA31308@catbert.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hot Diggety! John Jasen was rumored to have written: > > I've seen the recommendations for the Leathermans and the Gerbers > repeatedly. Interestingly enough, I agree with the generality of carrying > a multitool, but I've found the SwissTool to be a better fit. Anyone else, > or am I just odd? Nah, these (first) two were what I'd heard the most so I had them handy. I'm less familiar with the others, due to ignorance, rather than an intentional reason. I'll be sure to keep an eye out for someone with the SwissTool whom may be able to let me play with it for a few minutes. Sounds nice. I see it at: http://www.victorinox.com/newsite/en/produkte/neu/inhalt2.cfm?pid=spirit (For anyone else curious.) -Dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 09:57:44 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16HvhAe000039 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:57:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16HvhZF000037 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:57:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp101.his.com (smtp101.his.com [216.194.225.106]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16HvYAe000027 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:57:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by smtp101.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k16HvQOL033875; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:57:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k16HvOVk013311; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:57:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:57:18 +0100 To: Dan Foster From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: Doug Hanks , sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on smtp101.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.88, clamav-milter version 0.87 on smtp101.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 12:35 PM -0500 2006-02-06, Dan Foster wrote: > - DB-9/RJ-45 adapter > - DB-25/RJ-45 adapter > - DB-9 cable (both ends) > - DB-25 cable (both ends) > - DB-9 gender adapter > - DB-25 gender adapter > - DB-9-to-DB-25 cable > - USB-to-DB9 adapter > > Used for consoling a system that has really odd problems > (Usually the console server is sufficient, but sometimes not.) I really like the modular adapters which use cat-5 as the cable between the two ends. This means you have to carry a lot fewer cable ends in order to convert between the various data types, and if you need a longer cable it should just be a matter of getting a longer cat-5 cable. > Not required per se since we usually have piles of them > > - 5+ spare CD-R blanks (or DVD-R blanks) > - Sharpie felt-tip ink pen Don't use Sharpies on CD-R or DVD-Rs. They use a type of ink that will destroy the disc. Make sure to use only permanent markers that are explicitly designed for use on CD-R and DVD-Rs. Staedtler-Mars makes some nice ones. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 10:06:39 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16I6cAe000522 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:06:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16I6c2s000521 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:06:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay00.pair.com (relay00.pair.com [209.68.5.9]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id k16I6ZAd000514 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:06:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14238 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2006 18:06:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?64.3.116.42?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 6 Feb 2006 18:06:34 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 64.3.116.42 Message-ID: <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 10:08:36 -0800 From: Etaoin Shrdlu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.11) Gecko/20050728 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> In-Reply-To: <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Sarunas wrote: >Glenn Sieb wrote: ><...> > > >>>Just found it surprising that people still mess with hardware. Do you >>>work for smaller companies that cannot afford support contracts or do >>>you just enjoy working on hardware and your employer trusts you enough >>>to stick a screwdriver in a million dollar server? Would that void >>>the support contract? >>> >>> >So you're still getting surprised afeter all those years, eh? :) > > Oh, I'll bet he is. I've worked in everything from classified environments, to my house. In the classified world, you run the gamut of really large project, where you may even have a vendor or two that are cleared, or else in house staff, to needing to do everything yourself, because so few people are cleared. Even in the most relaxed of environments, I can't imagine not opening stuff up, and at least understanding whether all the parts are there that should be. >If it doesn't involve tearing warranty stickers, I usually open all the >new hardware that I order. ... I prefer to do hardware >troubleshooting/replacements/upgrades myself, whenever it's feasible. > > Ditto. What you said. If I can't see inside, I don't want it. At my house, I don't care about warranty stickers, not after the first month. I've been known to open things for sport. I don't think I'd hire someone who didn't know their way around tools, either. Before I forget, silly putty. I know I've said it before, but silly putty, on the end of one of those little retractable claw things, can pick up screws and other inappropriate items from almost anywhere, and it's non-conductive, and not greasy. I love silly putty, and I have it in every toolkit I've ever had. -- Everyone picks and chooses, an infinite number of times a day. - David Phalen, One For the Road, in Analog, March 2001 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 10:10:12 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16IACAe000792 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:10:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16IACJV000790 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:10:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from morpheus.lapseofthought.com (adsl-66-124-80-202.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [66.124.80.202]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16IAAAe000778 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:10:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.lapseofthought.com [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by morpheus.lapseofthought.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k16I7l4R033440 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:09:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drich@employees.org) Message-ID: <43E79073.2030803@employees.org> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 10:07:47 -0800 From: Dan Rich User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Hanks CC: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.2 required=6.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_20, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100,RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100,RAZOR2_CHECK, SPF_HELO_PASS,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on morpheus.lapseofthought.com Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Doug Hanks wrote: > How many of you actually use all these hardware tools? All of them probably never. The ones in the toolkit in my desk drawer, probably once or twice a week. Quick survey of the toolkit before I ramble on: razor knife electrician snips jewelers screwdrives allen wrenches (metric and english) leatherman w/hex adapter assortment of hex bits and nut drivers for the above serial cable adapters to plug just about anything into just about anything else various small pliers and cutters (set from RatShack, I think) small butane soldering iron (I still end up tinning cables from time to time) there are other goodies in the tool cabinet in our bench room, but the only thing I ever grab out of there are cable crimpers for making Cat5 or telco cables > I've been a SA > for 8 years and I've never had to worry about hardware. We let the > grunts that work for Sun or IBM support do all the hardware > replacement. We've always had support contracts. > You're lucky. I've been at sites who had support contracts where I've still had to work on hardware. And Sun/IBM/HP/etc. isn't going to come out to rethread the leader on that DLT tape where it popped; or remove the stuck serial connector off of the back of one of our servers; or open up the air handlers to configure the SNMP interface to work with our monitoring software, etc. More importantly, most support contracts have a 4 hour (or so) response time -- if a core server is down at 3am and it's something I can fix, I'm not going to wait for the engineer to wander out. For that matter, "support" doesn't always mean someone comes out. I've done motherboard replacements in Ultra 60s and NetApp NetCaches because the support contract only covered shipping the part, not replacing it. I've also had to rip things apart and fix them *after* the support engineer was on site to make them work (the SCSI cabling in my tape library comes to mind -- twice). > The only time I remember messing with hardware is when I dealt with > PCs. I remember that is the reason I moved to larger computing > systems; I've loathed messing around with hardware. > Ah, that's where we're different. I rather enjoy it. 90% (ok, I'm making up numbers here :) ) of the time you replace the hardware and the problem is solved. With software there's always one more oddity. > Just found it surprising that people still mess with hardware. Do you > work for smaller companies that cannot afford support contracts or do > you just enjoy working on hardware and your employer trusts you enough > to stick a screwdriver in a million dollar server? Would that void > the support contract? > All of the above? I've pulled out my screwdriver at multi-billion dollar companies where we had support contracts and just couldn't wait for an engineer. I've done it at small companies where we couldn't afford it. I've done it on PCs, I've done it on 1/2 million dollar network equipment, million dollar graphics workstations and cheap peripherals. -- Dan Rich | http://www.employees.org/~drich/ | "Step up to red alert!" "Are you sure, sir? | It means changing the bulb in the sign..." | - Red Dwarf (BBC) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 10:19:25 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16IJNAe001470 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:19:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16IJNv2001469 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:19:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from morpheus.lapseofthought.com (adsl-66-124-80-202.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [66.124.80.202]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16IJKAe001460 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:19:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.lapseofthought.com [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by morpheus.lapseofthought.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k16IJHiV034607 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:19:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drich@employees.org) Message-ID: <43E79325.8060105@employees.org> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 10:19:17 -0800 From: Dan Rich User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles CC: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] CD-R and Sharpies References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.1 required=6.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_05, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100,RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100,RAZOR2_CHECK, SPF_HELO_PASS,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on morpheus.lapseofthought.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k16IJMAd001465 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Brad Knowles wrote: > At 12:35 PM -0500 2006-02-06, Dan Foster wrote: >> Not required per se since we usually have piles of them >> >> - 5+ spare CD-R blanks (or DVD-R blanks) >> - Sharpie felt-tip ink pen > Don't use Sharpies on CD-R or DVD-Rs. They use a type of ink that > will destroy the disc. Make sure to use only permanent markers that > are explicitly designed for use on CD-R and DVD-Rs. Staedtler-Mars > makes some nice ones. Brad, do you have a reference for this? I've heard it for years, but personally had never had a single problem with a CD-R or DVD[-+]R[W] that I could trace back to a sharpie being used for labeling. I was only able to find a single reference on Google to anything discussing this where there was a test done, and they said not to use *any* marker ink to label the disk. And supposedly, Sanford is now labeling Sharpies as "Safe for CD use". Now, I'm not a chemist, but the only problem with I can see with labeling a disk would be the solvent used in the ink. However, these solvents evaporate as soon as the ink dries, at which point there shouldn't be any risk of damage. I could also see a problem if you're using a Sharpie on uncoated discs. But if you're using uncoated discs, the ink is going to be the least of your problems. -- Dan Rich | http://www.employees.org/~drich/ | "Step up to red alert!" "Are you sure, sir? | It means changing the bulb in the sign..." | - Red Dwarf (BBC) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 10:21:11 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16ILBAe001678 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:21:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16ILAmg001676 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:21:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (ms-smtp-03-lbl.southeast.rr.com [24.25.9.102]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16IL7Ad001666 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:21:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (cpe-071-068-117-195.carolina.res.rr.com [71.68.117.195]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k16IL5w5014854 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:21:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.10.10.188] (unknown [10.10.10.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A5353805E3 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:21:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43E79390.6070609@pgdc.com> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 13:21:04 -0500 From: Andy Ciordia User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Macintosh/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Sharpie Knowledge Was: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Brad Knowles wrote: > >> - Sharpie felt-tip ink pen > > Don't use Sharpies on CD-R or DVD-Rs. They use a type of ink that > will destroy the disc. Make sure to use only permanent markers that > are explicitly designed for use on CD-R and DVD-Rs. Staedtler-Mars > makes some nice ones. > I had no idea this was the case so I dug around. http://www.digg.com/technology/Sharpie_Pens_are_bad_for_CDR-DVD_Media_ Seems like it takes a rather hot environment to cause the damage and the commenter's go back and forth on certain validities. Roxio (http://www.roxio.com/en/support/discs/discprinting.html) says that Sharpies are fine.. Sharpie.com: http://www.sharpie.com/sanford/consumer/sharpie/home/faqs.jhtml "Is the SHARPIE marker safe for writing on CD's? Sanford has used SHARPIE markers on CDs for years and we have never experienced a problem. We do not believe that the SHARPIE ink can affect these CDs, however we have not performed any long-term laboratory testing to verify this. We have spoken to many major CD manufacturers about this issue. They use the SHARPIE markers on CDs internally as well, and do not believe that the SHARPIE ink will cause any harm to their products." Knowing that CD's are a non-permanent situation anyways unless you keep them encased in some oil preservation I've never had a disc go bad from sharpie writing. Interesting little hunt I went on.. hell if I know where to stand but good to know the angles.. -a From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 10:27:42 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16IRgAe002349 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16IRfox002347 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from util501.his.com (util501.his.com [216.194.216.35]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16IRdAe002334 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by util501.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k16IRRWA026140; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:27:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k16IRPTl014768; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:27:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:03:52 +0100 To: John Jasen From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: Dan Foster , Doug Hanks , sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on util501.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.88, clamav-milter version 0.87 on util501.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 12:41 PM -0500 2006-02-06, John Jasen wrote: > I've seen the recommendations for the Leathermans and the Gerbers > repeatedly. I've got both. The Gerber is kind of fiddly, with the pliers sliding out from inside the handle, and they may tend to pinch you when you're not expecting it. The older Leatherman pliers will hurt your hands, as they have exposed sharp metal edges that will be painful. The newer Leatherman devices have re-arranged the location of some of the blades, so that you have curved metal in those places and won't hurt your hands. These days, I'd go with a Leatherman Wave over most anything else in that category. > Interestingly enough, I agree with the generality of > carrying a multitool, but I've found the SwissTool to be a better > fit. Anyone else, or am I just odd? The Swiss Army (Victorinox?) Cybertool is the best multi-tool I've ever seen. But, IIRC it doesn't have a good set of built-in pliers. So, I'd want the Leatherman Wave as well. > FWIW, I also think a single-purpose pocket knife is also a good idea. Agreed. I have a Spyderco clip-it that I got years ago (long before we moved to Europe), and although I can't fly with it, I have started carrying it around again after all these years. I also have a knife that I made myself, taking blades and other components from several other knifes that had broken. It doesn't have a nice handle or anything, but it is very practical. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 10:27:42 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16IRgAe002350 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16IRgf5002348 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from util501.his.com (util501.his.com [216.194.216.35]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16IRdAe002333 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:27:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by util501.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k16IRUNU026145; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:27:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k16IRPTn014768; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:27:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20060206174939.GA31308@catbert.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> <20060206174939.GA31308@catbert.org> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:27:08 +0100 To: Dan Foster From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: John Jasen , Dan Foster , Doug Hanks , sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on util501.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.88, clamav-milter version 0.87 on util501.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 12:49 PM -0500 2006-02-06, Dan Foster wrote: > I'll be sure to keep an eye out for someone with the SwissTool whom may > be able to let me play with it for a few minutes. Sounds nice. > > I see it at: > > http://www.victorinox.com/newsite/en/produkte/neu/inhalt2.cfm?pid=spirit > > (For anyone else curious.) Interesting. I was thinking that you were talking about the CyberTool (see ). Looking at this style of tool, I think the SwissChamp XLT would probably be an even better choice (see ). Note that the PDF of the Victorinox SwissTool is at . Looking at it in more depth, it may actually be better than the Leatherman Wave, but I'd have to see them both in person so that I could make a direct comparison. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 10:37:59 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16IbwAe003177 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:37:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16IbwLX003176 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:37:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.swarpa.net (melfpelt.swarpa.net [70.84.200.162]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16IbuAd003170 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:37:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by smtp.swarpa.net (Postfix, from userid 500) id 2BA4B3F01E0; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:37:56 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17383.38786.976150.765954@melfpelt.swarpa.net> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:37:54 -0500 To: Ok Pa - We Like To Whomp Ether Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> X-Mailer: VM 7.17 under 21.4 (patch 15) "Security Through Obscurity" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smith X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk BK> These days, I'd go with a Leatherman Wave over most anything else in BK> that category. I really like my Leatherman Ti: One-handed operation of the knives, and all the tools (including the knives) lock. -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 10:53:21 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16IrLAe003997 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:53:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16IrLQi003996 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:53:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from util501.his.com (util501.his.com [216.194.216.35]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16Ir5Ae003979 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:53:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by util501.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k16IquPM028917; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:52:56 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k16IqsbI016076; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:52:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <43E79073.2030803@employees.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E79073.2030803@employees.org> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:33:53 +0100 To: Dan Rich From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: Doug Hanks , sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on util501.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.88, clamav-milter version 0.87 on util501.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 10:07 AM -0800 2006-02-06, Dan Rich wrote: > Quick survey of the toolkit before I ramble on: > razor knife A.k.a., "box cutter" or X-Acto. Good choice. I don't think anyone mentioned this previously. > electrician snips We called these "dykes", which was short for "diagonal cutters". Better than most combination pliers, since they cut much more flush, and usually had stronger cutting jaws. > jewelers screwdrives Excellent point! Again, one that I don't think has come up so far. I actually have several sets of these, including Phillips head, flat head, and Torx styles. > allen wrenches (metric and english) Another good one. > leatherman w/hex adapter > assortment of hex bits and nut drivers for the above Some PC cases use hex head machine screws, some don't. Those that do, it's much easier to use a hex drive than a flat-head screw driver (which is usually your only other option). > small butane soldering iron (I still end up tinning cables from > time to time) I really don't like the older style of soldering iron -- much too easy to injure yourself. I much prefer the ColdHeat or ColdHeat Pro style. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 10:53:21 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16IrKAe003995 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:53:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16IrKHI003994 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:53:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from util501.his.com (util501.his.com [216.194.216.35]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16Ir4Ae003976 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:53:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by util501.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k16IqxeY028920; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:52:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k16IqsbK016076; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:52:57 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <43E79325.8060105@employees.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> <43E79325.8060105@employees.org> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:49:23 +0100 To: Dan Rich From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] CD-R and Sharpies Cc: Brad Knowles , sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on util501.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.88, clamav-milter version 0.87 on util501.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 10:19 AM -0800 2006-02-06, Dan Rich wrote: > Brad, do you have a reference for this? I'd heard it before, but I didn't have any hard references. > I've heard it for years, but > personally had never had a single problem with a CD-R or DVD[-+]R[W] > that I could trace back to a sharpie being used for labeling. I did some Googling, and found the page at , which includes a link to the NIST document on the subject (as ). There is also the page at , , and . > Now, I'm not a chemist, but the only problem with I can see with > labeling a disk would be the solvent used in the ink. However, these > solvents evaporate as soon as the ink dries, at which point there > shouldn't be any risk of damage. Solvent based inks would definitely be a problem, depending on the quality and thickness of the lacquer coating. > I could also see a problem if you're using a Sharpie on uncoated discs. > But if you're using uncoated discs, the ink is going to be the least of > your problems. Looking at the page above, there are certainly a number of complaints from people, especially with regard to performance with specific brands of media. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 10:59:32 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16IxVAe004596 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:59:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16IxVaB004594 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:59:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamhock.hoovers.com (hamhock-outbound.hoovers.com [66.179.38.26]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16IxSAd004587 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:59:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.ad.austin.hoovers.com (mercury.ad.austin.hoovers.com [66.179.38.7]) by hamhock.hoovers.com (HamHock-OUTBOUND) with ESMTP id BA9FEE049 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:59:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from [66.179.38.59] ([66.179.38.59]) by mercury.ad.austin.hoovers.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:59:22 -0600 Message-ID: <43E79C8A.7020502@hoovers.com> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 12:59:22 -0600 From: Frank Smith User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Hanks CC: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Support contracts (Was: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest..) References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Feb 2006 18:59:22.0558 (UTC) FILETIME=[710AC5E0:01C62B4F] Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Doug Hanks wrote: > How many of you actually use all these hardware tools? I've been a SA > for 8 years and I've never had to worry about hardware. We let the > grunts that work for Sun or IBM support do all the hardware > replacement. We've always had support contracts. > > The only time I remember messing with hardware is when I dealt with > PCs. I remember that is the reason I moved to larger computing > systems; I've loathed messing around with hardware. > > Just found it surprising that people still mess with hardware. Do you > work for smaller companies that cannot afford support contracts or do > you just enjoy working on hardware and your employer trusts you enough > to stick a screwdriver in a million dollar server? Would that void > the support contract? > > -- > - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com > For places that use large quantities of generic servers, support contracts are not always cost-effective. Even with over 200 servers up to 5 years old, we only have a hardware failure every 2 months or so. We spend less than $1k on parts (usually fans and disks) per year, and probably between 1 and 2 days of a persons time. Even though we could afford support contracts, it wouldn't be the best use of the company's money. For non-generic hardware, maintenance contracts can make sense, since it is more expensive to have all the spares needed available and if you don't have a spare you can't just run to the local computer store to pick one up). Frank -- Frank Smith fsmith@hoovers.com Sr. Systems Administrator Voice: 512-374-4673 Hoover's Online Fax: 512-374-4501 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 11:10:47 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16JAlAe005328 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:10:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16JAllF005327 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:10:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from wingfoot.org (caduceus.wingfoot.org [64.32.179.50]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16JAjAd005319 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:10:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wingfoot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D5931F4404 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:10:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from wingfoot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (wingfoot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10042) with ESMTP id 44215-01 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:10:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.1.201.28] (unknown [66.155.166.179]) by wingfoot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90D231F4406 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:10:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:10:42 -0500 From: Glenn Sieb User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8) Gecko/20051201 Thunderbird/1.5 Mnenhy/0.7.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> In-Reply-To: <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at wingfoot.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: > Sarunas wrote: > >> Glenn Sieb wrote: >> <...> >> >> >>>> Just found it surprising that people still mess with hardware. Do you >>>> work for smaller companies that cannot afford support contracts or do >>>> you just enjoy working on hardware and your employer trusts you enough >>>> to stick a screwdriver in a million dollar server? Would that void >>>> the support contract? >>>> >> So you're still getting surprised afeter all those years, eh? :) Please note I did *NOT* say this.. :) Best, --Glenn From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 11:43:17 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16JhHAe009528 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:43:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16JhGSD009527 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:43:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay00.pair.com (relay00.pair.com [209.68.5.9]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id k16JhDAd009510 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:43:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 52924 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2006 19:43:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?64.3.116.42?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 6 Feb 2006 19:43:13 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 64.3.116.42 Message-ID: <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 11:45:14 -0800 From: Etaoin Shrdlu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.11) Gecko/20050728 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> In-Reply-To: <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Please note I did *NOT* say this.. :) Lots of attribution, but I see that "Doug Hanks wrote:" was somehow lost from all this. We all understand; Doug doesn't use tools, but the rest of us appear to love them. I certainly do. Speaking of tools (which we were), I also use a scanner. Yep. That's right. A flatbed scanner is part of my tool set. Everything from packing lists for equipment, to business cards, to licenses for every single piece of software (I scan the back of the CD case; much easier than typing it in). If some asks how many copies of the Sun Compiler we have (or had, I retired, I keep forgetting), it's a simple matter of looking at the licenses, and doing some quick math (they're not all installed in the same place, natch). So, where do you all *keep* your tools? Anyone still a fan of those Pelican boxes? -- Everyone picks and chooses, an infinite number of times a day. - David Phalen, One For the Road, in Analog, March 2001 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 11:44:52 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16JipAe009985 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:44:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16JipRJ009983 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:44:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org (mail.reptiles.org [198.96.119.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16JimAd009964 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:44:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org([198.96.119.1] port=1517) (1907 bytes) by mail.reptiles.org([198.96.119.1] port=25) via TCP with esmtp (sender: ) id for ; (dest:remote)(R=bind_hosts)(T=inet_zone_bind_smtp) Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:44:34 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.118 2004-May-31 #3 built 2004-Oct-14) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:44:34 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Etaoin Shrdlu cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> Message-ID: <20060206144412.K48561@skink.reptiles.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 6 Feb 2006, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: > Speaking of tools (which we were), I also use a scanner. Yep. That's right. A > flatbed scanner is part of my tool set. Everything from packing lists for > equipment, to business cards, to licenses for every single piece of software > (I scan the back of the CD case; much easier than typing it in). If some asks > how many copies of the Sun Compiler we have (or had, I retired, I keep > forgetting), it's a simple matter of looking at the licenses, and doing some > quick math (they're not all installed in the same place, natch). ... and with lcds, it's possible to take decent photos of screens as well... cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 11:55:05 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16Jt3Ae012164 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:55:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16Jt3N4012161 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from Eng.Auburn.EDU (dns.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.10.13]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16Jt0Ad012142 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:55:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from netdir.eng.auburn.edu (netdir.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.12.3]) by Eng.Auburn.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16JsxOZ025844; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:54:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by netdir.eng.auburn.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.6.4) with ESMTP id k16Jsva11119; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:54:57 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: netdir.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:54:57 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: Etaoin Shrdlu cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 6 Feb 2006, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: > > So, where do you all *keep* your tools? Anyone still a fan of those > Pelican boxes? I've got a really nice company logoed bag that I got back when we were flush with cash that has a shoulder strap and a hand strap. It has 2 large inner compartments, 2 smaller zipper outer compartments, a fold-over flap to cover the inner compartments with canvas straps and snap in plastic clasps. On the outside of the inner compartments underneath the flap is a place to hold business cards, pens, screwdrivers, my telescoping mirror, and misc other things. Lots of little pockets right there. It balances out the laptop on the other shoulder when I have to catch the train or plane or whatever. All my big gear (crimper, brother p-touch labeller, 100' of cat-5, cat-5 ends, db25, db9, gender changers, cat-5 extenders, wire cutters, etc are in the big pockets) Doug From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 11:57:00 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16JuwAe012737 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:57:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16JuwKu012736 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:56:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta14.mta.everyone.net (sitemail2.everyone.net [216.200.145.36]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16JurAd012713 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:56:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm17.mta.everyone.net (bigiplb-dsnat [172.16.0.19]) by omta14.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C773408FF; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:56:53 -0800 (PST) X-Eon-Dm: dm17 Received: by dm17.mta.everyone.net (EON-AUTHRELAY2 - 81aa1c22) id dm17.43e02ac8.c0ee9; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:56:50 -0800 (PST) X-Eon-Sig: AQFR2g9D56oC2QlOaAIAAAAC,587574a1318761296f11fcdca361d592 Message-ID: <43E7AA32.1060407@mail.saabnet.com> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:57:38 -0500 From: Sarunas User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Cc: Glenn Sieb Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> In-Reply-To: <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.1.0 OpenPGP: id=53149FE6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Glenn Sieb wrote: > Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: > >> Sarunas wrote: >> >>> Glenn Sieb wrote: >>> <...> >>> >>> >>>>> Just found it surprising that people still mess with hardware. Do you >>>>> work for smaller companies that cannot afford support contracts or do >>>>> you just enjoy working on hardware and your employer trusts you enough >>>>> to stick a screwdriver in a million dollar server? Would that void >>>>> the support contract? >>>>> >>> >>> So you're still getting surprised afeter all those years, eh? :) > > > Please note I did *NOT* say this.. :) > > Best, > --Glenn > Sorry Glenn, my bad! There must have been "Doug Hanks wrote:", apparently... Sarunas Burdulis -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFD56oyVVkpJ1MUn+YRAsd3AKCF7N1xjCOnoW1k9qDgg8ZuJsR+/wCcCtuu 4QLrvQhYghLxZBqJP62Mx9s= =9duD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 12:28:57 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16KSuAe019125 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:28:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16KSuIK019120 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:28:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from web20.warpdrive.net (web20.warpdrive.net [24.56.130.131]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16KSpAe019089 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:28:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 4303 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2006 15:28:38 -0500 Received: from wg-pam1.warpdrive.net (HELO ?192.168.0.100?) (24.56.128.3) by mail-wd.warpdrive.net with SMTP; 6 Feb 2006 15:28:38 -0500 Message-ID: <43E7B17D.3060905@warpdrive.net> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:28:45 -0500 From: Chris Allermann User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7-1.1.fc4 (X11/20050929) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Several years ago I picked up the "Leatherman® 9-in-1 Precision Tool " from radioshack of all places (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2104745&cp). Sure it's a mini leatherman but does the job for about 90% of my hardware work, it's the one thing I carry with me religiously anyplace I go. Pelican boxes are great for big expensive items. In a previous employer we stored all of our fluke cable testers in them. For normal day-to-day items I think they are a bit overkill. What i've been looking for lately is a small tool case/bag that would fit in my laptop bag. Something just big enough to carry the basics. Sort of like those cheesy PC repair kits everybody sells, but of a much higher quality and minus all the tools since I already have them. Another trick i've picked up over the years is to carry one or two empty 35mm film canisters in my toolbox to store parts during disassembly. Doug Hughes wrote: >On Mon, 6 Feb 2006, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: > > > >>So, where do you all *keep* your tools? Anyone still a fan of those >>Pelican boxes? >> >> > >I've got a really nice company logoed bag that I got back when >we were flush with cash that has a shoulder strap and a hand strap. >It has 2 large inner compartments, 2 smaller zipper outer compartments, >a fold-over flap to cover the inner compartments with canvas straps and snap >in plastic clasps. On the outside of the inner compartments underneath >the flap is a place to hold business cards, pens, screwdrivers, >my telescoping mirror, and misc other things. Lots of little pockets >right there. It balances out the laptop on the other shoulder when >I have to catch the train or plane or whatever. > >All my big gear (crimper, brother p-touch labeller, 100' of cat-5, >cat-5 ends, db25, db9, gender changers, cat-5 extenders, wire cutters, >etc are in the big pockets) > > Doug > > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 12:31:06 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16KUpAe019487 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:30:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16KUoDP019486 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:30:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp101.his.com (smtp101.his.com [216.194.225.106]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16KUXAe019452 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:30:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by smtp101.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k16KURLY045094; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:30:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k16KUIUb021889; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:30:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 21:27:53 +0100 To: Etaoin Shrdlu From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on smtp101.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1279/Mon Feb 6 13:10:36 2006 on smtp101.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 11:45 AM -0800 2006-02-06, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: > Speaking of tools (which we were), I also use a scanner. Yep. That's right. > A flatbed scanner is part of my tool set. That's a really good idea. I hadn't thought about that. > So, where do you all *keep* your tools? Anyone still a fan of those > Pelican boxes? Pelican boxes? I don't recall having ever heard of them. I do have a couple of nice soft-side toolbags that I got over here, as well as a couple of hard-side plastic toolboxes. Good stuff for the larger hand tools (hammers, cordless drills, electric staplers, etc...), but I don't know if they would work so well for the application you have in mind. Do you have any links for the Pelican boxes, so that I could see what you're talking about? -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 12:32:21 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16KWLAe019897 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:32:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16KWLKV019896 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:32:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from util501.his.com (util501.his.com [216.194.216.35]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16KWIAe019887 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:32:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by util501.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k16KWGAC039258; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:32:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k16KWE2Q021950; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:32:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <43E7B17D.3060905@warpdrive.net> References: <43E7B17D.3060905@warpdrive.net> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 21:32:09 +0100 To: Chris Allermann From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on util501.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1279/Mon Feb 6 13:10:36 2006 on util501.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 3:28 PM -0500 2006-02-06, Chris Allermann wrote: > Another trick i've picked up over the years is to carry one or two empty > 35mm film canisters in my toolbox to store parts during disassembly. Now that something like 90% of all cameras currently in circulation are digital, and most analog camera manufacturers are getting out of at least that part of the business, this option is going to go away pretty soon. We need to find an alternative. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 12:37:46 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16KbkAe020737 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:37:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16KbjLe020736 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:37:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org (mail.reptiles.org [198.96.119.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16KbiAd020728 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:37:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org([198.96.119.1] port=2365) (1509 bytes) by mail.reptiles.org([198.96.119.1] port=25) via TCP with esmtp (sender: ) id for ; (dest:remote)(R=bind_hosts)(T=inet_zone_bind_smtp) Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:37:43 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.118 2004-May-31 #3 built 2004-Oct-14) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:37:42 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Brad Knowles cc: Chris Allermann , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060206153719.R48561@skink.reptiles.org> References: <43E7B17D.3060905@warpdrive.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 6 Feb 2006, Brad Knowles wrote: > Now that something like 90% of all cameras currently in circulation > are digital, and most analog camera manufacturers are getting out of at least > that part of the business, this option is going to go away pretty soon. We > need to find an alternative. Pill bottles, now that more than half of us are on (prescribed) drugs? cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 12:41:32 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16KfVAe021384 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:41:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16KfVXo021383 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:41:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from vms040pub.verizon.net (vms040pub.verizon.net [206.46.252.40]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16KfRAd021365 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:41:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from shamet.sub1.verizon.net ([64.222.186.101]) by vms040.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPA id <0IUA00BN89GRT9HB@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> for sage-members@sage.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:41:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from shamet.sub1.verizon.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by shamet.sub1.verizon.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C6D71724F1; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:42:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:42:21 -0500 From: Jon maddog Hall Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-reply-to: Message from Brad Knowles of "Mon, 06 Feb 2006 21:32:09 +0100." To: Brad Knowles Cc: Chris Allermann , sage-members@sage.org Message-id: <20060206204221.5C6D71724F1@shamet.sub1.verizon.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.0 06/18/2004 with nmh-1.1-RC1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <43E7B17D.3060905@warpdrive.net> Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk brad@stop.mail-abuse.org said: > Now that something like 90% of all cameras currently in circulation are > digital, and most analog camera manufacturers are getting out of at least > that part of the business, this option is going to go away pretty soon. We > need to find an alternative. As a diabetic, I can recommend plastic pill bottles from the drugstore. They even have locking caps, they are clear plastic so you can see through them, and they come in a variety of shapes and sizes. md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux International(R) email: maddog@li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. (R)Linux International is a registered trademark in the USA used pursuant to a license from Linux Mark Institute, authorized licensor of Linus Torvalds, owner of the Linux trademark on a worldwide basis (R)UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group in the USA and other countries. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 12:42:30 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16KgSAe021625 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:42:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16KgRsM021624 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:42:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (cliff.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.17]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16KgNAd021589 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (harley.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.11.69]) by mcs.anl.gov (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id k16KgB9102580; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:42:11 -0600 Message-Id: <200602062042.k16KgB9102580@mcs.anl.gov> To: Brad Knowles cc: Chris Allermann , sage-members@sage.org, rackow@mcs.anl.gov Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Feb 2006 21:32:09 +0100." Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:42:11 -0600 From: Gene Rackow Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Brad Knowles made the following keystrokes: > Now that something like 90% of all cameras currently in >circulation are digital, and most analog camera manufacturers are >getting out of at least that part of the business, this option is >going to go away pretty soon. We need to find an alternative. The population is aging rapidly. The number of little bottles with "child-proof" caps is on the rise. I prefer these to the 35mm bottles since I can see into them, and the cap is screw-on and not as likely to get caught on the edge of something in the bag an pop off. I've nailed a number of caps to a board running above my home workbench, so all I need to do is reach up and unscrew the bottle to get at what I need. No long searches for the right thing. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 13:14:00 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16LDwAe023200 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:13:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16LDvHi023199 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:13:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16LDoAd023179 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:13:51 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:13:44 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Thread-Index: AcYrVg8xxw2TS52eQ2uQNQflGx2DDAAC+0Dw From: "Dave Hilton" To: "Etaoin Shrdlu" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k16LDqAd023190 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Where do I keep my tools? You ask. The heavy stuff is in an automotive roller cab with top box. The smaller, more often used items are in a reworked Dell leather laptop carrying bag. Gruddy From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 13:16:01 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16LG1Ae023396 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:16:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16LG1c3023394 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:16:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16LFwAd023378 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:15:59 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:15:52 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Thread-Index: AcYrXJ5fuqIlu2TARoaIJUUZ9KJXpwABbnnQ From: "Dave Hilton" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k16LG0Ad023386 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk A person word about the ubiquitous multi-tools. Too many moving parts. Hilton From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 13:26:54 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16LQqAe024363 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:26:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16LQqGP024361 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:26:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from web20.warpdrive.net (web20.warpdrive.net [24.56.130.131]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16LQjAe024354 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:26:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5071 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2006 16:26:28 -0500 Received: from wg-pam1.warpdrive.net (HELO ?192.168.0.100?) (24.56.128.3) by mail-wd.warpdrive.net with SMTP; 6 Feb 2006 16:26:28 -0500 Message-ID: <43E7BF0C.2030807@warpdrive.net> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 16:26:36 -0500 From: Chris Allermann User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7-1.1.fc4 (X11/20050929) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Pelican Cases: http://www.pelican.com/ Brad Knowles wrote: > At 11:45 AM -0800 2006-02-06, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: > >> Speaking of tools (which we were), I also use a scanner. Yep. That's >> right. >> A flatbed scanner is part of my tool set. > > > That's a really good idea. I hadn't thought about that. > >> So, where do you all *keep* your tools? Anyone still a fan of those >> Pelican boxes? > > > Pelican boxes? I don't recall having ever heard of them. > > I do have a couple of nice soft-side toolbags that I got over > here, as well as a couple of hard-side plastic toolboxes. Good stuff > for the larger hand tools (hammers, cordless drills, electric > staplers, etc...), but I don't know if they would work so well for the > application you have in mind. Do you have any links for the Pelican > boxes, so that I could see what you're talking about? > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 14:06:36 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16M6aAe026084 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:06:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16M6ZfO026083 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16M6YAe026077 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:06:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16M6XZO026075 for sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:06:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from coke.conundrum.com (coke.conundrum.com [216.235.9.139]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k15FQYAe019028 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 5 Feb 2006 07:26:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [216.235.13.82] ([216.235.13.82]) by coke.conundrum.com (8.13.1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k15FPSG7016483; Sun, 5 Feb 2006 10:25:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from matt@conundrum.com) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-5--215248030" Message-Id: <95F920DB-BFCB-4BB6-B4D3-FDF665E6BAD2@conundrum.com> Cc: baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matt Pounsett Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 10:27:04 -0500 To: Robert Brockway X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.1.1 (Tiger) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-5--215248030 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On 2006-Feb-03, at 20:59 , Robert Brockway wrote: > On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Dave Hilton wrote: > >> Dan Foster's list is about as good as I've seen. I go heavy on >> non-metallic flashlights, cordless soldering pencil, chop sticks >> (yes, >> chop sticks - they are non-metallic and can reach into the smallest > > Along these lines,I recommend a small mirror. A mirror (preferably > one that can be extended away from you) is invaluable for seeing > behind badly positioned boxes to replug cables, etc. Small > "lipstick/makeup mirrors" are perfect for this. I have a dental mirror (actually, five of them, because they go missing) I picked up at a surplus store a few years ago. Absolutely essential, I find. Matt --Apple-Mail-5--215248030 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFD5hlJae4z2vjbC8sRAgDWAKCxwc5DoOiFwYFbahf0eebbTzjGpgCgvHkw jpD20ZcGPlSY212YXD8em+I= =tLZq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-5--215248030-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 14:13:45 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16MDhAe026624 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:13:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16MDhuT026623 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:13:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16MDgAe026617 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:13:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16MDfNA026616 for sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from uproxy.gmail.com (uproxy.gmail.com [66.249.92.196]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16EmZAd022528 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 06:48:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by uproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id o2so468614uge for ; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 06:48:28 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=b6RukeClfAr3o3dLp6qftZaovTioCw+DwoIIUpZjLl07JypyTwhcHOGw0g+dgxcyFLqKyoqG+3ZMI7mR1mQJ+KrWhX/NI1bHCo4KRGh3JwE6mIK++5W8eMWlfcZdeiVnlApgH26SZALIloM9YC7XPsJWZXHGNqgq6FIrPKnYXTI= Received: by 10.48.49.7 with SMTP id w7mr1244028nfw; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 06:48:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.12.15 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 06:48:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <14cd29d50602060648q10f818cu714174a8048db985@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:48:27 +0000 From: Donal Cunningham To: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: rskiadmin@chycoski.com, Jim Dennis , Dan Foster , Jennifer Davis , baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060204004747.GA16075@catbert.org> <20060204063656.GC20628@starshine.org> <43E4D91C.7090906@chycoski.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k16EmbAd022532 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk One thing I picked up recently (thank you Uncle Ebay) was a 4-port 10/100 Mbps hub (no, not a switch - a Netgear DS104, for those who are interested). Useful for port sniffing. I know it's a bit much for a newhire, but useful for the more long-toothed sysadmin/network engineer. Also handy; some 15cm long Velcro strips (they stick nicely to the lining of my toolkit) and a cage nut tool. I *like* my fingers, I really do; the cage nut tool (a shim, really) that comes with Dell racks I have found to be particularly good. If you're in the fibre end of things, a Fibre Swiper (mine came with a Juniper) is small and handy - a lot more so than a full Kletop cleaner. D. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 14:14:22 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16MELAe026726 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:14:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16MELev026724 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:14:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16MEKAe026718 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:14:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16MEKiw026717 for sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:14:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from office-mail.cira.ca (office-mail.cira.ca [207.35.205.108]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16HxXAd000204 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.203.0.65] (mattp-desktop.cira.loc [192.203.0.65]) by office-mail.cira.ca (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id k16HwwD27516; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:58:59 -0500 In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-7--119738669" Message-Id: Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matt Pounsett Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:58:54 -0500 To: Doug Hanks X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.1 (Tiger) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --Apple-Mail-7--119738669 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On 6-Feb-2006, at 12:02 , Doug Hanks wrote: > The only time I remember messing with hardware is when I dealt with > PCs. I remember that is the reason I moved to larger computing > systems; I've loathed messing around with hardware. > > Just found it surprising that people still mess with hardware. Do you > work for smaller companies that cannot afford support contracts or do > you just enjoy working on hardware and your employer trusts you enough > to stick a screwdriver in a million dollar server? Would that void > the support contract? We've actually been moving away from the more expensive, closed systems like Sun hardware.. we've found we get much more bang for our buck using various configurations of x86-based systems. We keep enough of a support contract on all our hardware to make sure that replacement parts show up on-site when we need them, an do the rest of the work ourselves. Even when we're using expensive blade-style systems, or working on our NetApps, it's still all the same hardware underneath. Why pay tens of thousands for a support contract when all it takes is a few minutes to do the work yourself? Matt --Apple-Mail-7--119738669 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFD545hae4z2vjbC8sRAvk7AJwO8ZYo01BagILIJlfOifYf9n92JgCfX258 52wGwsleLsnrFK8JzesrnY0= =yrVX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-7--119738669-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 14:43:29 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16MhRAe028336 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:43:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16MhRxd028335 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:43:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16MhHAd028325 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:43:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id t10so996346wxc for ; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:43:17 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hCz3C9gsORFjPh1xWY2tV12IuNzk3RAW78Q84Rw9s5FqjaoXYP9uPWXqpaaGz7gVuPufJxo3U5Lizj+B/dtO8ZmCHpgYOg/hpVuzaNecaudvWPSmAW5FkevPgWHXearlHCXLmjbFZcSNbVEq5OtCKqVtBFEyTNaQ6sPwqFGnaZ0= Received: by 10.70.82.12 with SMTP id f12mr2494349wxb; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:43:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.37.3 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:43:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:43:16 -0800 From: Doug Hanks To: Etaoin Shrdlu Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: sage-members@sage.org In-Reply-To: <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k16MhQAd028331 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 2/6/06, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: > > Please note I did *NOT* say this.. :) > > Lots of attribution, but I see that "Doug Hanks wrote:" was somehow > lost from all this. We all understand; Doug doesn't use tools, but the > rest of us appear to love them. I certainly do. Hi, I have more tools than I know what to do with at home. Everything from telephone, television, video/audio, networking, wood, metal, automotive and even lumber tools. I've worked in each field since I was a kid and I know how to use and enjoy doing things yourself. The reason that I'm surprised is that all the major UNIX vendors have adopted TQM following in the steps of IBM and are offering more services to customers. If you're a small shop and cannot afford expensive contracts, I know vendors like Dell even offer on-site support for a reasonable cost. I've worked only with very large fortune 500 and fortune 100 companies. They exclusively use on site support contracts and the engineer shows up within an hour with a replacement part in his hand. Too add to the thread, I would like to add the following tools and accessories. * Husky Tool bag. http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/jsearch/product.jsp?pn=167193 * SureFire LED flashlight. http://www.surefire.com * Fleece jacket for when you're in the cold server room for hours fixing a server. * IBM 3151/3153 dumb terminal on a cart. Easier to use than a laptop + emulation software. * RJ45 and Fiber cable/signal tester. -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 14:48:56 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16MmuAe028786 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:48:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16MmtGb028784 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:48:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16MmsAe028779 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:48:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16MmroK028778 for sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:48:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from morpheus.lapseofthought.com (adsl-66-124-80-202.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [66.124.80.202]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16MlGAe028625 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:47:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.lapseofthought.com [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by morpheus.lapseofthought.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k16MkvIK090754 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:47:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drich@employees.org) Message-ID: <43E7D1E1.9060403@employees.org> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:46:57 -0800 From: Dan Rich User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles CC: Doug Hanks , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E79073.2030803@employees.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.2.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigE92922C9B4C3A58BE091E566" X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.3 required=6.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100,RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100,RAZOR2_CHECK, SPF_HELO_PASS,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on morpheus.lapseofthought.com Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigE92922C9B4C3A58BE091E566 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:07 AM -0800 2006-02-06, Dan Rich wrote: > >> Quick survey of the toolkit before I ramble on: >> razor knife > A.k.a., "box cutter" or X-Acto. Good choice. I don't think > anyone mentioned this previously. I have the kind with the snap-off blades in my kit here at work. While I prefer X-Acto's for home use, I'm constantly losing the stupid caps!=20 Box cutter is one I forgot since it's in my desk drawer instead of the tool bag (and yes, I have both -- you can turn the box cutter into a scraper pretty easily and sometimes I want a longer blade that just that little razor blade). >> electrician snips > We called these "dykes", which was short for "diagonal cutters". > Better than most combination pliers, since they cut much more flush, > and usually had stronger cutting jaws. The electrician snips aren't the same as dykes. These look like a very strong pair of kids scissors, with points, that also have a pair of notches for stripping wire. The only place I've ever seen them is GrayBar or Frys (and the ones at Frys are cheap in my opinion). One of the companies that makes impact tools has a newer design out now that has more comfortable handles, these will kill your hands if you're using them quite a bit. However, they will easily cut a cat 5 cable or just about anything else you use them on. (just found them at twacomm.com - http://www.twacomm.com/catalog/model_44500-000.htm) >> allen wrenches (metric and english) > Another good one. I didn't use to have these 'til I had to open our air handler and my old tape library. Both of them use hex locks. >> leatherman w/hex adapter >> assortment of hex bits and nut drivers for the above > Some PC cases use hex head machine screws, some don't. Those that > do, it's much easier to use a hex drive than a flat-head screw driver > (which is usually your only other option). And you can get a huge assortment of hex bits really cheap. I picked up a black-n-decker ratchet driver with a set of something like 30 bits for under $10 at the local hardware store. It has phillips, regular, hex, torx, square (whatever they are called), and a 1/4" socket adaptor.=20 That and a cheap set of small sockets covers just about everything. >> small butane soldering iron (I still end up tinning cables fro= m >> time to time) > I really don't like the older style of soldering iron -- much too easy > to injure yourself. I much prefer the ColdHeat or ColdHeat Pro style. I have a coldheat, I didn't mention it since haven't tried it yet. I haven't done any soldering in a while. --=20 Dan Rich | http://www.employees.org/~drich/ | "Step up to red alert!" "Are you sure,= sir? | It means changing the bulb in the sign= =2E.." | - Red Dwarf (BBC) --------------enigE92922C9B4C3A58BE091E566 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFD59HhIYJ5xMxu09kRAifQAJ9w5ZpgC5zUkhplFxWBswiVmdJ8fACgkZhR lVNIkncAntFZu81yGcTzc5s= =sXVf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigE92922C9B4C3A58BE091E566-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 15:01:31 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16N1VAe029357 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16N1VEY029356 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16N1SAd029334 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:01:29 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:01:23 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Thread-Index: AcYrcHeLVSVV7fsJSyWf9Yy8WSxx/wAADR9Q From: "Dave Hilton" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k16N1UAd029352 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Someone mentioned "dikes" = "diagonal cutters". Here is a handy, blood sparing tip: take a pair of cheap dikes, dull the edges ever-so-slightly, use these to cut off the ends of nylon tie straps. The feathery edges that are left will not lacerate your hands like the razor sharp "clean" ends of tie straps cut off with a normal dike every time you have to dive into your cable bundles. Gruddy From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 15:06:49 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16N6nAe029742 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:06:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16N6m3R029741 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:06:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.206]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16N6jAd029735 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id t10so999890wxc for ; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:06:45 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=r2G37mxw4XWQnmXYnx6HWJLATiHCVyQXEUHnLvDGjHL/M/6krNe8+k34yB3C5t35mpGM9Qd8e0K/TCxwEXPywzFPzVGm+BCuVkBPk/9zb2vGc/QX5KXBeZg7tqpDB/ljnuCSZa76aIhul8071BJCJaDVoBjVizYw34WAX2ZWiOU= Received: by 10.70.50.4 with SMTP id x4mr6543102wxx; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:06:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.37.3 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:06:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <82a71f8a0602061506y65a05cb2gaa311fe791d81a67@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:06:44 -0800 From: Doug Hanks To: Dan Rich Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: Etaoin Shrdlu , sage-members@sage.org In-Reply-To: <43E7D4A3.7020005@employees.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> <43E7D4A3.7020005@employees.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k16N6lAd029737 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 2/6/06, Dan Rich wrote: > I use one of those for my tools at home (and at the theatre), but prefer > a Rubbermaid 7187 bag for work. > (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000089H9Q/qid=1139266324/sr=1-15/ref=sr_1_15/103-3075287-0573463?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=228013) The link on Amazon had a funny typo. Said it was 168 cubic feet. -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 15:09:26 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16N9QAe029980 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:09:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16N9Pbp029977 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:09:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp101.his.com (smtp101.his.com [216.194.225.106]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16N9MAe029962 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:09:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by smtp101.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k16N9FaN056744; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:09:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k16N90N2031006; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:09:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <43E7BF0C.2030807@warpdrive.net> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> <43E7BF0C.2030807@warpdrive.net> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 00:00:55 +0100 To: Chris Allermann From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on smtp101.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1279/Mon Feb 6 13:10:36 2006 on smtp101.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 4:26 PM -0500 2006-02-06, Chris Allermann wrote: > Pelican Cases: http://www.pelican.com/ I had Googled before asking, really I had. Unfortunately, doing so didn't turn up much in the way of useful links -- I saw way more links to things like Rubbermaid hard-side toolboxes of the sort that I've already bought over here. Someone else pointed me at , which looks to be the same stuff as your link above. Interesting stuff, being Mil-spec and IP67, although a bit hard-core for use as a "regular" toolbox. Oh, and they don't have a case that would fit my PowerBook G4 17" very well.... ;) Thanks for the link! -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 15:16:17 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16NGGAe000517 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16NGG7Z000516 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.201]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16NG8Ad000508 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:16:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (ool-43514b76.dyn.optonline.net [67.81.75.118]) by mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) with ESMTP id <0IUA00738GMQG260@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for sage-members@sage.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 18:16:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 18:16:01 -0500 From: Chris Allermann Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-reply-to: To: sage-members@sage.org Message-id: <43E7D8B1.1070106@warpdrive.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en References: User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7-1.1.fc4 (X11/20050929) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Better yet, ditch the tie wraps all together. As I go through redoing a bunch of my wiring I have been replacing all tie wraps with velcro straps. They are reusable, you don't have to cut them to put new cables into a bundle (i never get a warp and fuzzy feeling when i have to cut zip ties of of cables connected to production systems), and they are not as easy to overtighten and damage cables. I recently bought a roll of this stuff from grainger for under $15 and i've made about 50 bundles with it so far. This stuff is a blessing, especially if you do lots of moves/add/changes. Dave Hilton wrote: > Someone mentioned "dikes" = "diagonal cutters". > >Here is a handy, blood sparing tip: > >take a pair of cheap dikes, dull the edges ever-so-slightly, use these >to cut off the ends of nylon tie straps. The feathery edges that are >left will not lacerate your hands like the razor sharp "clean" ends of >tie straps cut off with a normal dike every time you have to dive into >your cable bundles. > >Gruddy > > > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 15:20:39 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16NKcAe000820 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:20:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16NKcCM000818 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:20:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp103.his.com (smtp103.his.com [216.194.225.86]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16NKVAe000800 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:20:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by smtp103.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k16NKSh1009629; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:20:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k16NKPKd031796; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:20:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 00:15:12 +0100 To: Doug Hanks From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: Etaoin Shrdlu , sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on smtp103.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1279/Mon Feb 6 13:10:36 2006 on smtp103.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 2:43 PM -0800 2006-02-06, Doug Hanks wrote: > The reason that I'm surprised is that all the major UNIX vendors have > adopted TQM following in the steps of IBM and are offering more > services to customers. If you're a small shop and cannot afford > expensive contracts, I know vendors like Dell even offer on-site > support for a reasonable cost. > > I've worked only with very large fortune 500 and fortune 100 > companies. They exclusively use on site support contracts and the > engineer shows up within an hour with a replacement part in his hand. At AOL, the vendors had their own offices on-site, and had stores of replacement parts in their offices or in buildings nearby. Yet, most of the grunt hardware work was done by others, who were AOL employees. Occasionally we'd get a hardware problem and need to talk to the vendor. For example, there was the time on Friday night when a hard drive logic board died on a critical drive, HP didn't have any on-site spares, and they weren't going to be able to get a replacement sent in by FedEx for several days. So, the on-site Engineer took another drive with a functional logic board, removed the board (thus exposing the platters inside), then removed the dead logic board on the critical drive (thus exposing the platters inside), and swapped logic boards. Yes, he did this without being in a clean room. No, he did not breathe during the entire operation -- nor did anyone else in the room. Yes, we did back up the drive (with dd), just as soon as we could successfully communicate with it again. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 15:24:14 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16NOEAe001161 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16NOEHS001160 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp103.his.com (smtp103.his.com [216.194.225.86]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16NO9Ae001153 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:24:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by smtp103.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k16NO1k6009725; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:24:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k16NNtao031954; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:23:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <43E7D8B1.1070106@warpdrive.net> References: <43E7D8B1.1070106@warpdrive.net> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 00:23:40 +0100 To: Chris Allermann From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on smtp103.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1279/Mon Feb 6 13:10:36 2006 on smtp103.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 6:16 PM -0500 2006-02-06, Chris Allermann wrote: > Better yet, ditch the tie wraps all together. > As I go through redoing a bunch of my wiring I have been replacing all > tie wraps with velcro straps. On a related matter, at the studio theater here in Brussels that is shared between the American Theater Company, the English Comedy Club, and the Irish Theatre Group, the "powers that be" have decreed that no electrical wiring on the lighting grid will be secured with tape or zip ties, but only with velcro straps. IMO, this is a good call, both ways. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 15:24:42 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16NOfAe001277 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:24:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16NOfXC001270 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:24:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from igloo.igtc.com (igloo.igtc.com [66.166.73.178]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16NOcAd001230 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:24:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by igloo.igtc.com (Postfix, from userid 501) id C13C1B1D24; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:24:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:24:32 -0800 From: "Paul M. Moriarty" To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: <20060206232432.GA15073@igloo.igtc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I have used a GI canvas tool bag for my day to day tools since my Air Force days. The same one for a matter of fact. 25+ years. http://www.tedsmilitarysurplus.com/bagsbackpacks/gbgimechanics.html - Paul - From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 15:31:06 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16NULAe001643 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:31:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16NUB0i001640 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:30:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from Eng.Auburn.EDU (dns.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.10.13]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16NS0Ad001609 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from netdir.eng.auburn.edu (netdir.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.12.3]) by Eng.Auburn.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16NRgOZ004611; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:27:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by netdir.eng.auburn.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.6.4) with ESMTP id k16NReO11245; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:27:40 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: netdir.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:27:40 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: Chris Allermann cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: <43E7D8B1.1070106@warpdrive.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 6 Feb 2006, Chris Allermann wrote: > Better yet, ditch the tie wraps all together. > > As I go through redoing a bunch of my wiring I have been replacing all > tie wraps with velcro straps. > They are reusable, you don't have to cut them to put new cables into a > bundle (i never get a warp and fuzzy feeling when i have to cut zip ties > of of cables connected to production systems), and they are not as easy > to overtighten and damage cables. I recently bought a roll of this stuff > from grainger for under $15 and i've made about 50 bundles with it so > far. This stuff is a blessing, especially if you do lots of > moves/add/changes. or reusable zip ties. (more expensive than regular zip tiesusually , cheaper than velcro) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 15:44:56 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16NiuAe002501 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:44:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16NiuNu002500 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:44:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp101.his.com (smtp101.his.com [216.194.225.106]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16NimAe002491 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:44:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by smtp101.his.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k16Nij3V058752; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:44:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id k16Nih86033067; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:44:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 00:44:37 +0100 To: Doug Hughes From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: Chris Allermann , sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on smtp101.his.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1279/Mon Feb 6 13:10:36 2006 on smtp101.his.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 5:27 PM -0600 2006-02-06, Doug Hughes wrote: > On Mon, 6 Feb 2006, Chris Allermann wrote: > >> Better yet, ditch the tie wraps all together. >> >> As I go through redoing a bunch of my wiring I have been replacing all >> tie wraps with velcro straps. [ ... deletia ... ] > or reusable zip ties. > (more expensive than regular zip tiesusually , cheaper than velcro) Yeah, but if someone clips them off just like regular zip ties (which I have done myself, way back when and before I knew better), then they're not very re-usable anymore, and you still have the problems with having them slice up your hands and fingers when you dig into the bundle of cables. In that case, you might as well have used either regular zip ties or velcro, because velcro wouldn't have gotten trimmed and regular zip ties would have been a lot cheaper. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 15:54:31 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16NsVAe003036 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k16NsVs9003035 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay00.pair.com (relay00.pair.com [209.68.5.9]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id k16NsSAd003027 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:54:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 44560 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2006 23:54:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?64.3.116.42?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 6 Feb 2006 23:54:28 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 64.3.116.42 Message-ID: <43E7E22D.1050507@deaddrop.org> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:56:29 -0800 From: Etaoin Shrdlu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.11) Gecko/20050728 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Doug Hanks wrote: >On 2/6/06, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: > > >> > Please note I did *NOT* say this.. :) >> >> You *do* understand that *I* didn't write that second line, right? Makes it all the funnier. >I have more tools than I know what to do with at home. > Sorry. Didn't mean to imply you weren't a tool user; just surprised that someone worked somewhere with system administrators that didn't mess with hardware. I can't picture it, and yet it clearly exists. >The reason that I'm surprised is that all the major UNIX vendors have >adopted TQM following in the steps of IBM and are offering more >services to customers. If you're a small shop and cannot afford >expensive contracts, I know vendors like Dell even offer on-site >support for a reasonable cost. > > I wouldn't let a Dell shade tree mechanic near anything I valued. For that matter, I'm not too impressed with the folk that package them to be shipped out. I've received a machine so damaged that the logo itself had been disengaged, and yet there it was, nice and neat, all stuffed into the styrofoam, damaged case and all. How hard would that have been to set it aside? Guess there's no accountability once it leaves, and they just figured they'd get away with it. Cost me a few days waiting for it, and cost Dell $$$ shipping out a new one on a hurry up order. Service? IBM? Do you mean Lenova? Hah! >I've worked only with very large fortune 500 and fortune 100 >companies. They exclusively use on site support contracts and the >engineer shows up within an hour with a replacement part in his hand. > > Maybe. I've had pretty good luck with Sun, although there've still been a few moments. I've worked with only very large aerospace companies, and I've run the gamut of support contracts, from good luck with your new machine, to being driven crazy by salesmen wanting to make sure that everything's perfect. Replacement parts are important, and I'll always recommend those types of contracts. Same with software; if there's upgrades involved, or the application is complicated, then support is (in my opinion) unquestioned. >Too add to the thread, I would like to add the following tools and accessories. > > >* Fleece jacket for when you're in the cold server room for hours >fixing a server. > > Oh. Just added that to my list. Great idea (wish I'd had one last week). -- Everyone picks and chooses, an infinite number of times a day. - David Phalen, One For the Road, in Analog, March 2001 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 16:00:12 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1700BAe003438 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:00:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1700BHn003437 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:00:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17003Ad003405 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:00:05 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:59:57 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Thread-Index: AcYrdBbBYfofdz9SRheGDhh/vEiahwABRzlQ From: "Dave Hilton" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k1700AAd003433 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Velcro - yes it's great stuff, however, ever tried to thread pre-made bundles through conduit or even a tight ladder when you made the bundles with Velcro? That's where I use tie straps. Hilton " Better yet, ditch the tie wraps all together. " From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 18:52:05 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k172q3Ae007557 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:52:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k172q2dv007555 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:52:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k172prAe007536 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:51:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k172prsn007535 for sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:51:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from morpheus.lapseofthought.com (adsl-66-124-80-202.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [66.124.80.202]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k16MwtAe029272 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:58:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.lapseofthought.com [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by morpheus.lapseofthought.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k16MwhRc095570 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:58:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drich@employees.org) Message-ID: <43E7D4A3.7020005@employees.org> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:58:43 -0800 From: Dan Rich User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Hanks CC: Etaoin Shrdlu , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.2.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig941742A506B8B2D8A0147FA2" X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.3 required=6.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_20,BIZ_TLD, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100,RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100,RAZOR2_CHECK, SPF_HELO_PASS,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on morpheus.lapseofthought.com Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig941742A506B8B2D8A0147FA2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Doug Hanks wrote: > * Husky Tool bag.=20 > http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/jsearch/product.jsp?pn=3D167= 193 > =20 I use one of those for my tools at home (and at the theatre), but prefer a Rubbermaid 7187 bag for work. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000089H9Q/qid=3D1139266324/sr=3D1-15/r= ef=3Dsr_1_15/103-3075287-0573463?%5Fencoding=3DUTF8&v=3Dglance&n=3D228013= ) I find I tend to lose small tools in bags like the Husky, where the Rubbermaid has two zippered pockets inside with elastic that are great for small parts. > * SureFire LED flashlight. http://www.surefire.com > =20 Ouch, nice but pricey! I have a couple of these floating around: http://www.theledlight.com/palights.html If you have a maglite, I can't say enough nice things about these LED retrofit kits (the MiniStar2): http://www.terralux.biz/products/index.htm > * IBM 3151/3153 dumb terminal on a cart. Easier to use than a laptop > + emulation software. > =20 I'll second this one. It doesn't fit in my bag, but we have several floating around our data center. --=20 Dan Rich | http://www.employees.org/~drich/ | "Step up to red alert!" "Are you sure,= sir? | It means changing the bulb in the sign= =2E.." | - Red Dwarf (BBC) --------------enig941742A506B8B2D8A0147FA2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFD59SjIYJ5xMxu09kRAqXEAJ0Q6lVcVj2DDx7ctAKumUj7/RoKXQCgiPlN yqi6UsuJhzNMs5dVwI5AlLg= =dbEA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig941742A506B8B2D8A0147FA2-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 6 20:54:01 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k174s1Ae011164 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 20:54:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k174s1sS011163 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 20:54:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from priv-edmwes24.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [204.209.205.55]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k174rwAd011155 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 20:53:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from terminus.cyberdex.ca ([142.179.182.172]) by priv-edmwes24.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20060207045352.MNIZ10788.priv-edmwes24.telusplanet.net@terminus.cyberdex.ca> for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 21:53:52 -0700 Received: (qmail 25021 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2006 04:53:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.0.131?) (192.168.0.131) by terminus.cyberdex.ca with SMTP; 7 Feb 2006 04:53:52 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <04B59EFF-CFD6-4A71-B709-61E8C147B011@cyberdex.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Trever Miller Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 21:53:51 -0700 To: sage-members@sage.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 6-Feb-06, at 4:15 PM, Brad Knowles wrote: > So, the on-site Engineer took another drive with a functional logic > board, removed the board (thus exposing the platters inside), then > removed the dead logic board on the critical drive (thus exposing > the platters inside), and swapped logic boards. Yes, he did this > without being in a clean room. No, he did not breathe during the > entire operation -- nor did anyone else in the room. Yes, we did > back up the drive (with dd), just as soon as we could successfully > communicate with it again. Been there, done that. Another handy trick is to put a drive with failing bearings (and thus overheats pdq) into the deep freeze for about 5-10 minutes then back into the system, power up, mount, copy stuff off asap... From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 01:04:16 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1794GAe024547 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:04:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1794G2l024545 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:04:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntp1.ntp.isc.org (ntp1.ntp.isc.org [204.152.184.126]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1794CAd024533 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:04:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntp1.ntp.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4E7239B0E; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:04:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from ntp1.ntp.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ntp1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 73497-09; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:03:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntp1.ntp.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:03:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <04B59EFF-CFD6-4A71-B709-61E8C147B011@cyberdex.ca> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> <04B59EFF-CFD6-4A71-B709-61E8C147B011@cyberdex.ca> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:54:28 +0100 To: Trever Miller From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on ntp1.isc.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 9:53 PM -0700 2006-02-06, Trever Miller wrote: > Been there, done that. Another handy trick is to put a drive with > failing bearings (and thus overheats pdq) into the deep freeze for about > 5-10 minutes then back into the system, power up, mount, copy stuff off > asap... That's a cool idea! ;) Has anyone heard of recent drives suffering from Stiction? I'm just curious to know if the "Stiction FAQ" that I wrote back in 1989 is still of any use. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 01:54:37 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k179saAe025937 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:54:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k179saSm025936 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:54:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [70.85.16.91]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k179sUAd025925 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id 542771A953; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 04:54:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 04:54:28 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Brad Knowles Cc: Trever Miller , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: <20060207095428.GA14383@catbert.org> References: <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> <04B59EFF-CFD6-4A71-B709-61E8C147B011@cyberdex.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hot Diggety! Brad Knowles was rumored to have written: > At 9:53 PM -0700 2006-02-06, Trever Miller wrote: > > > Been there, done that. Another handy trick is to put a drive with > > failing bearings (and thus overheats pdq) into the deep freeze for about > > 5-10 minutes then back into the system, power up, mount, copy stuff off > > asap... > > That's a cool idea! ;) Actually worked the one time I *really* needed to do it badly, 10 years ago as of this coming summer. We froze the failed drive -- which held all of our users' dirs and files on the main NFS server at a small startup (not the current employer). (We had been in middle of a critical migration when it died. Murphy at his best [worst]...) We tried freezing it for only a hour... didn't do the trick. Four hours later, we tried again and just barely got the last bits of data off before it went dead again. At that point, it was thrown into the rubbish bin. The CEO (or Managing Director) and I were sweating, sitting there in the fish bowl, watching the copy proceed, very anxiously. 5 minutes later, everything was back, and I went home for the night, having gotten out of the frying pan after a 36 hour criticality 1 incident. He had fired my boss only a few hours before for having gone to the lake mid-crisis, a few hours away, and wouldn't head back immediately. Had the drive recovery not worked... I'm pretty sure I'd have had been standing in the line at the unemployment office the next morning. I have no particular desire to revisit that particular experience any time soon, nor rely on it always working. :-) I got lucky the one time I really needed it to work, and I'm content to leave it as a very rare one-time-only event! I can't remember the situations that made it so bad, but was not a single issue, but many things that quickly compounded each other. There was a reason why backups weren't an option, but escapes me now. The company was too cheap to go for any sort of basic redundancy, so RAID-1 software mirroring or RAID-5 hardware mirroring wasn't even an option. Not enough space to do mirroring of data to other servers/disks. But we got all of that ironed out by the time I eventually left. Unfortunately, went out of business several months later, after the government busted the owners for credit card fraud, and the banks/creditors immediately seized all assets, changed the locks and alarms, locked up the place, and posted guards; everyone effectively laid off due to no access and no cash flow. Different story and for another time, though. > Has anyone heard of recent drives suffering from Stiction? I'm > just curious to know if the "Stiction FAQ" that I wrote back in 1989 > is still of any use. Recent? Hmm. Don't think I've seen stiction with drives in years. Friend once brought home a donated Mac IIsi from his employer whom wanted to have nothing further to do with it and had been sitting in a closet for so long. He got the infamous blinking question mark at boot. (This was about 10 years ago.) Knowing I knew my way around Macs (have done small commercial Mac development work, as well as administration and other things), he left it to me to look at, and took a quick shower. When he was back, very surprised to see the IIsi fully booted to Finder. Asked how I had resolved it? Welllll..... In a most unorthodox method in his eyes. :) Took the drive, and tried a carefully placed firm tap of the knuckles in the right spot. No dice. Ended up having to drop it to a thick carpeted floor from about 2 ft in height. *THAT* loosened the gunk sufficiently that it was able to subsequently boot. (I did, however, tell him to get a new drive, anyway, if he expected to be using this machine for much longer. I was more worried with him not keeping it spinning 24x7, which would allow the gunk to re-solidify upon sitting for long enough...) He was horrified when he had heard the method used, and said it was a good thing he was in the shower at the time and hadn't seen me doing it! For a similar reason, my Mac repair guy at another job once told me that certain repairs required *NOBODY* be looking because he would bang the side of the Mac SE/30 in a very specific location, and for a very specific and well-founded technical reason peculiar to that machine. But nobody would understand it, and would then think he was trying the infamous 'bang-the-TV' approach and try it themselves later on whenever a Mac was misbehaving, with potentially poor results. Of the current pile of 30 failed drives (with another pile of 60 recovered by the vendor)... most failed due to age (which I would presume was some kind of HDA problem other than ball bearing failure). 30 of the vendor-recovered drives was due to a particularly bad quality control regarding some sort of really nasty combination of drive firmware + HDA quality (physical) + array quality (physical) + array firmware. A small percentage due to a sudden power transient. (Correlated with specific power-related error reports in the more expensive servers with better hardware monitors.) These tend to scramble the drive on-board electronics which makes it report funky things to SCSI INQUIRY commands. We did narrow it down to only two specific server models that suffered from power transients that could fry the drives' electronics. Haven't bought any of these particular server models in years. An even smaller percentage of drives fails to drive firmware being downrev (and in one or two cases, adapter firmware being downrev), but not as common. I think that was with 2 or 3 drives in last 10 years. Also, had ball bearings failure with server class drives only twice in 10 years. I still have the brand new 10K RPM half height replacement drive in a cabinet, still in its original packaging. ;) Since I am well past profoundly deaf... any drive that makes me think I'm at a front row of a Metallica rock concert and standing next to the giant speakers... is definitely due to a ball bearing failure!!! Incredible vibration, to put it mildly. -Dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 02:53:00 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17Ar0Ae027375 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 02:53:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17Ar03i027374 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 02:53:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [70.85.16.91]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17AqvAd027366 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 02:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id 92CB41A953; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 05:52:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 05:52:56 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Doug Hanks Cc: Etaoin Shrdlu , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: <20060207105256.GA18308@catbert.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hot Diggety! Doug Hanks was rumored to have written: > > The reason that I'm surprised is that all the major UNIX vendors have > adopted TQM following in the steps of IBM and are offering more > services to customers. If you're a small shop and cannot afford > expensive contracts, I know vendors like Dell even offer on-site > support for a reasonable cost. > > I've worked only with very large fortune 500 and fortune 100 > companies. They exclusively use on site support contracts and the > engineer shows up within an hour with a replacement part in his hand. It seems like you're equating the need for tools with opening up a machine for repairs. That is not the case -- at least, for myself, and from sounds of it, also true for others? In fact, I almost never need to touch a machine's innards. My tools are, therefore, for other uses. Let's pick a vendor for these hypothetical questions -- let's say, IBM. Will IBM come on-site if I need a rack shelf installed? Will IBM come on-site to check a non-IBM disk array if we're wondering if its Ethernet controller is working? Will IBM come on-site to debug basic network parameters for non-IBM servers? Will IBM come on-site to measure power usage for planning new turnups? (Ordinarily...) Will IBM come on-site to run Cat5 whenever we need to install a new server into a rack? Or install a new patch panel? Will IBM come on-site if we need to console a laptop with a server? Will IBM come on-site if we have a vendor that only sends hot-swap drives via mail for a failed drive swap? Will IBM come on-site to burn or provide us with CDs via Internet download if we suddenly need one for something? Will IBM come on-site to attach labels to various cables and systems? Will IBM come on-site faster than we can get a company personnel to a spare part in storage? (for purposes of availability) Will IBM come on-site to do ...xxx/yyy/zzz...? :) Or put it slightly differently... I'm sure IBM would do all of the above via a custom maint agreement, but the cost would be prohibitive. Unless if I happened to work for King Midas, maybe. :-) You need tools to do all these, and more, and it's just much more cost-effective for many to do the really simple/common stuff on your own. (I recognize that this is not an universal truth; but then again, these sites whom don't fit the picture above are engineered differently, and usually with on-site personnel 24x7 and with large numbers of pre-imaged ready-made spares ready to literally swap out on a moment's notice, or have higher availability configurations with requisite vendor support, or both.) I haven't even mentioned a single instance of a need to open up a chassis at all. But yet, still need tools to get things done on a daily basis, for very routine things that doesn't involve opening up hardware. At work, we use a reasoned approach to putting machines on a service contract. Machines that are cheap/easy to replace (e.g. basic 1U servers) and where we have large stock of spare parts or servers, we don't need them on maintenance support coverage. Machines that are incredibly expensive to replace, or where we have no usable stock of spare parts, they go on a maint contract. Or perhaps where we have no local or nearby personnel handy. So, we end up balancing the cost vs usefulness vs need for vendors to work on their hardware, but without sacrificing practical availability or unnecessarily throwing money into the wind, as per our fiduciary duties to stockholders/investors as corporate employees. And even with this nuanced and balanced approach, we still very rarely ever need to open up hardware. But we most definitely *do* need tools for common tasks. Perhaps on a daily basis, or more likely, a weekly basis... or monthly... -Dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 02:59:12 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17AxBAe027959 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 02:59:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17AxBoX027958 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 02:59:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [70.85.16.91]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17Ax9Ad027950 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 02:59:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id CFFBE1A953; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 05:59:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 05:59:08 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Glenn Sieb Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: <20060207105908.GB18308@catbert.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hot Diggety! Glenn Sieb was rumored to have written: > Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: > >Sarunas wrote: > > > >>Glenn Sieb wrote: > >><...> > >> > >> > >>>>Just found it surprising that people still mess with hardware. Do you > >>>>work for smaller companies that cannot afford support contracts or do > >>>>you just enjoy working on hardware and your employer trusts you enough > >>>>to stick a screwdriver in a million dollar server? Would that void > >>>>the support contract? > >>>> > >>So you're still getting surprised afeter all those years, eh? :) > > Please note I did *NOT* say this.. :) Neither did I... :-) *jumps on the bandwagon* :-) (Couldn't resist.) For what it's worth, I've ceased to be surprised by the occasional extra-interesting and amazing situations that Murphy delivers. :-) (In the normal course of working through various issues, that is.) -Dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 03:02:35 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17B2ZAe028208 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17B2Zq7028206 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [70.85.16.91]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17B2XAd028199 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:02:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id E1CBB1A953; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 06:02:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 06:02:31 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Josh Smith Cc: Ok Pa - We Like To Whomp Ether Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: <20060207110231.GC18308@catbert.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> <17383.38786.976150.765954@melfpelt.swarpa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <17383.38786.976150.765954@melfpelt.swarpa.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hot Diggety! Josh Smith was rumored to have written: > BK> These days, I'd go with a Leatherman Wave over most anything else in > BK> that category. > > I really like my Leatherman Ti: One-handed operation of the knives, and > all the tools (including the knives) lock. I don't have a recently-manufactured Wave, but my understanding is that it also adopts these ideals in a more practical fashion, too. (They did subtle redesign/tweaks in the past few years.) I can't speak with any authoritative voice, though, since my Wave is, uh.. um.. 8 years old, maybe? And made before the latest tweaks they made. Which does sound pretty nice, and I now half want to buy another Wave. :P (Before someone mentioned the interesting-looking SwissTool.) Still, I think the Ti was lighter than the Wave, which would certainly be another point in its favo[u]r. -Dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 03:10:10 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17BA8Ae028811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:10:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17BA7PV028810 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:10:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [70.85.16.91]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17BA5Ad028802 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:10:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id B4C191A953; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 06:10:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 06:10:04 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Brad Knowles Cc: Dan Rich , Doug Hanks , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: <20060207111004.GD18308@catbert.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E79073.2030803@employees.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hot Diggety! Brad Knowles was rumored to have written: > At 10:07 AM -0800 2006-02-06, Dan Rich wrote: > > > Quick survey of the toolkit before I ramble on: > > razor knife > > A.k.a., "box cutter" or X-Acto. Good choice. I don't think > anyone mentioned this previously. Well, not directly or explicitly, but I believe the Leatherman Wave and Gerber utility multi-tools covers this functionality already, and was mentioned three days before. This was one of the reasons why I used them, but had forgotten to mention. Still, I'll give Dan Rich credit for having had directly mentioned that good use first. :) And, yes, I do agree that this is a very handy bit of functionality. Some of the tapes used in shipping expensive servers are internally reinforced such that you really can't rip them apart easily without something like a serrated knife blade. Razor knife blades are useful, too, in the easier situations where it's just ordinary tape of some sort around a shipping box. And in other situations like when splicing tiny wires together, too. (Another use I have for these razor blades in the multi-tool.) -Dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 03:18:26 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17BIPAe029293 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:18:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17BIPwV029292 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [70.85.16.91]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17BIOAd029284 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:18:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id 0F98A1A953; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 06:18:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 06:18:22 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: Etaoin Shrdlu Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: <20060207111822.GE18308@catbert.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hot Diggety! Etaoin Shrdlu was rumored to have written: > > Oh, I'll bet he is. I've worked in everything from classified > environments, to my house. I've joked that one's {dog|cat|pet dragon|other} is the official Chief of Security guarding the 'data center' and not to be trifled with. :-) (At home.) I've always been amused by the look on first-time contractors whom visits a very highly secured facility... and I don't mean 'corporate', either... and they make the mistake of bringing a pager or mobile phone on-site. They soon learn when they are told by very unamused and armed people that they must permanently surrender these items, and that these items now belong to the government without any hope of reclamation. I might describe The Look(TM) as being 'deer in headlights'... Subsequently, they do not ever bring in anything that they want to bring back out -- because nothing goes back out. (And, yes, that applies to even failed hardware, for the unaware.) -Dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 03:20:51 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17BKpAe029518 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:20:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17BKpwY029516 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:20:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from zappy.catbert.org (zappy.catbert.org [70.85.16.91]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17BKnAd029508 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 03:20:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by zappy.catbert.org (Postfix, from userid 2000) id 177851A953; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 06:20:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 06:20:48 -0500 From: Dan Foster To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: <20060207112048.GF18308@catbert.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf8 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk No particular comment other than a thank-you to all whom contributed (including Brad, Dan R., Doug Hanks, Cat, the other Doug, Jon, and so many others). It was insightful, interesting, and appreciated. Certainly learned a number of nifty things. -Dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 04:32:14 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17CWDAe000956 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 04:32:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17CWDne000955 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 04:32:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.1.73]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17CW5Ad000950 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 04:32:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailspool2.panix.com (mailspool2.panix.com [166.84.1.79]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 327E99DCAF for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 07:32:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.3.1.231] (nat-08.EECS.Tufts.EDU [130.64.23.208]) by mailspool2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A596BEDAEE1 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 07:32:04 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43E7D1E1.9060403@employees.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E79073.2030803@employees.org> <43E7D1E1.9060403@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <51996304-A04C-4933-82F7-89A9447CD621@panix.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael D Steeves Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 07:32:03 -0500 To: sage-members@sage.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Feb 6, 2006, at 5:46 PM, Dan Rich wrote: > Brad Knowles wrote: >> At 10:07 AM -0800 2006-02-06, Dan Rich wrote: >>> electrician snips >> We called these "dykes", which was short for "diagonal cutters". >> Better than most combination pliers, since they cut much more flush, >> and usually had stronger cutting jaws. > The electrician snips aren't the same as dykes. These look like a > very > strong pair of kids scissors, with points, that also have a pair of > notches for stripping wire. The only place I've ever seen them is > GrayBar or Frys (and the ones at Frys are cheap in my opinion). > One of > the companies that makes impact tools has a newer design out now that > has more comfortable handles, these will kill your hands if you're > using > them quite a bit. However, they will easily cut a cat 5 cable or just > about anything else you use them on. > (just found them at twacomm.com - > http://www.twacomm.com/catalog/model_44500-000.htm) Klein (http://www.kleintools.com) makes a pair as well (I don't have a direct URL, as their online catalog is driven by stuff like "Javascript:CatLnk('Knives%20&%20Scissors');"). If you bring up their online catalog, and choose "Product Index" and then "Knives and Scissors", you'll get to their page. You can find their stuff in Home Depot and Loewe's, also. -Mike -- Michael Steeves (msteeves@panix.com) "Well, that's an idea all right. Not a good one, but it's an idea." -- Tom Servo From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 05:22:47 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17DMkAe002050 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 05:22:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17DMk0p002049 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 05:22:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntp1.ntp.isc.org (ntp1.ntp.isc.org [204.152.184.126]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17DMhAd002032 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 05:22:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntp1.ntp.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE33239B75; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:22:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from ntp1.ntp.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ntp1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 87979-06; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:22:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntp1.ntp.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:22:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20060207111004.GD18308@catbert.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E79073.2030803@employees.org> <20060207111004.GD18308@catbert.org> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:35:20 +0100 To: Dan Foster From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: Brad Knowles , Dan Rich , Doug Hanks , sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on ntp1.isc.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 6:10 AM -0500 2006-02-07, Dan Foster wrote: >> > Quick survey of the toolkit before I ramble on: >> > razor knife >> >> A.k.a., "box cutter" or X-Acto. Good choice. I don't think >> anyone mentioned this previously. > > Well, not directly or explicitly, but I believe the Leatherman Wave and > Gerber utility multi-tools covers this functionality already, and was > mentioned three days before. Kinda-semi-sorta, but not exactly. The nice thing about a "box cutter" or X-Acto knife is that the blade is truly razor-sharp (which is not true of most multi-tools after they've been used for a while, even if the blades were razor-sharp to begin with), and the blades can easily be replaced (also not true of most multi-tools). There are lots of things that I'd be perfectly fine doing with a box cutter that I wouldn't think of using my multi-tool for, or any of my other good pocket knives. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 05:22:54 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17DMsAe002074 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 05:22:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17DMr9p002073 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 05:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntp1.ntp.isc.org (ntp1.ntp.isc.org [204.152.184.126]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17DMqAd002054 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 05:22:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntp1.ntp.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C269739B74; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:22:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from ntp1.ntp.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ntp1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 85313-10; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:22:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntp1.ntp.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:22:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20060207111822.GE18308@catbert.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <20060207111822.GE18308@catbert.org> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:39:03 +0100 To: Dan Foster From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: Etaoin Shrdlu , sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on ntp1.isc.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 6:18 AM -0500 2006-02-07, Dan Foster wrote: > I've always been amused by the look on first-time contractors whom > visits a very highly secured facility... and I don't mean 'corporate', > either... and they make the mistake of bringing a pager or mobile phone > on-site. > > They soon learn when they are told by very unamused and armed people > that they must permanently surrender these items, and that these items > now belong to the government without any hope of reclamation. The government didn't do that when I was working there, and I was in the National Military Command Center within the Pentagon, and you had to have a TS/SBI clearance to get in the door. Yes, they take the beepers and phones. But they label them with your name, and give them back to you when you leave. The thing that always pissed me off was that action officers and civilians actually stationed there would walk in with precisely the same make & model of beeper and/or phone, and they would not be required to leave theirs, while I was required to leave mine. > Subsequently, they do not ever bring in anything that they want to bring > back out -- because nothing goes back out. > > (And, yes, that applies to even failed hardware, for the unaware.) Did I mention the time that my Dad brought in his nice 35mm SLR camera into the NMCC? Yes, he got it back out again. Yes, it was in my backpack. No, we never took it out of the backpack. Yes, we were hoping that no one would ask what was in my backpack. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 08:02:26 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17G2QAe005930 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17G2Ph6005929 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from clas.ufl.edu (minotaur.clas.ufl.edu [128.227.148.248]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17G2MAd005921 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:02:23 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-From: allan@cookie.org Received: from [128.227.148.121] (allanbc68.dhcp.clas.ufl.edu [128.227.148.121]) by clas.ufl.edu (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/clas1.23) with ESMTP id k17G2Jn05128; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:02:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43E8C48B.4030803@cookie.org> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 11:02:19 -0500 From: Allan West User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Macintosh/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles CC: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> <04B59EFF-CFD6-4A71-B709-61E8C147B011@cyberdex.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Brad Knowles wrote: > At 9:53 PM -0700 2006-02-06, Trever Miller wrote: > >> Been there, done that. Another handy trick is to put a drive with >> failing bearings (and thus overheats pdq) into the deep freeze for about >> 5-10 minutes then back into the system, power up, mount, copy stuff off >> asap... > > > That's a cool idea! ;) > > Has anyone heard of recent drives suffering from Stiction? I'm just > curious to know if the "Stiction FAQ" that I wrote back in 1989 is still > of any use. Yes, I had a drive die and need percussive maintenance about two weeks ago. Two taps with the Leatherman Wave was what it needed. The drive finally spun up, but there was damage to the platters so I replaced the whole thing. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 08:18:29 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17GIRAe006572 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:18:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17GIRmw006571 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:18:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay03.pair.com (relay03.pair.com [209.68.5.17]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id k17GIPAd006564 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 85463 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2006 16:18:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?64.3.116.42?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 7 Feb 2006 16:18:24 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 64.3.116.42 Message-ID: <43E8C8C9.9090404@deaddrop.org> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 08:20:25 -0800 From: Etaoin Shrdlu Organization: dig @localhost TXT CHAOS version.bind User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.11) Gecko/20050728 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> <04B59EFF-CFD6-4A71-B709-61E8C147B011@cyberdex.ca> <43E8C48B.4030803@cookie.org> In-Reply-To: <43E8C48B.4030803@cookie.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Allan West wrote: > Brad Knowles wrote: > >> Has anyone heard of recent drives suffering from Stiction? I'm just >> curious to know if the "Stiction FAQ" that I wrote back in 1989 is >> still of any use. > > > Yes, I had a drive die and need percussive maintenance about two weeks > ago. Two taps with the Leatherman Wave was what it needed. The drive > finally spun up, but there was damage to the platters so I replaced > the whole thing. Man, I thought I was the only one nuts enough to be smacking drives. Wrong again. I also have used something else, if I believe that the problem is in the arm for the read write head. Turn upside down, and use a nice, gentle smack, maybe two, while it's on (please don't do this unless you're sure, from that terrible clicking noise, that it *is* the read that's stuck, and not something else that's wrong). I've recovered entire drives this way. Out of curiosity, I left one running after recovering the data. It ran just fine for nearly a year and a half. I also like freezing, but only as a last resort, and it's a really fine line between freezing to readability, and freezing to permanent damage. Ah, hardware. I love hardware. -- Everyone picks and chooses, an infinite number of times a day. - David Phalen, One For the Road, in Analog, March 2001 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 08:37:37 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17GbbAe007312 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:37:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17GbawT007311 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:37:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from morpheus.lapseofthought.com (adsl-66-124-80-202.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [66.124.80.202]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17GbXAe007305 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:37:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.lapseofthought.com [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by morpheus.lapseofthought.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k17GbREn099813 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:37:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drich@employees.org) Message-ID: <43E8CCC6.2050802@employees.org> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 08:37:26 -0800 From: Dan Rich User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles CC: Trever Miller , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> <04B59EFF-CFD6-4A71-B709-61E8C147B011@cyberdex.ca> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=6.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100,RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100,RAZOR2_CHECK, SPF_HELO_PASS,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on morpheus.lapseofthought.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k17GbZAd007306 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Brad Knowles wrote: > At 9:53 PM -0700 2006-02-06, Trever Miller wrote: > >> Been there, done that. Another handy trick is to put a drive with >> failing bearings (and thus overheats pdq) into the deep freeze for >> about >> 5-10 minutes then back into the system, power up, mount, copy stuff off >> asap... > > That's a cool idea! ;) > > Has anyone heard of recent drives suffering from Stiction? I'm > just curious to know if the "Stiction FAQ" that I wrote back in 1989 > is still of any use. Yes I have, and yes it is. :) (and I need to go find the FAQ and see if it helps with a bad drive I have at home) We had a batch of drives from HP about 6 months back that all had what appeared to be stiction problems. The usual "spin it on the desktop" trick worked for most of them, I had to give a few of them a good whack to get them up and running again. It brings back memories of when I was in the field and we had the old (IBM?) drives that had an outgassing problem from the motor. Eventually the bearings would sieze. I love the look on a customers face when you are whacking their precious data with the top end of a screw driver. And then their look when you put the drive back in the machine and it spins up.... :) -- Dan Rich | http://www.employees.org/~drich/ | "Step up to red alert!" "Are you sure, sir? | It means changing the bulb in the sign..." | - Red Dwarf (BBC) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 08:42:49 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17GglAe007658 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17GglnT007655 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from morpheus.lapseofthought.com (adsl-66-124-80-202.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [66.124.80.202]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17GghAe007644 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:42:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.lapseofthought.com [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by morpheus.lapseofthought.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k17GgbIr000330 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:42:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drich@employees.org) Message-ID: <43E8CDFD.2040200@employees.org> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 08:42:37 -0800 From: Dan Rich User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hilton CC: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=6.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100,RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100,RAZOR2_CHECK, SPF_HELO_PASS,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on morpheus.lapseofthought.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k17GgjAd007648 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Dave Hilton wrote: > Someone mentioned "dikes" = "diagonal cutters". > > Here is a handy, blood sparing tip: > > take a pair of cheap dikes, dull the edges ever-so-slightly, use these > to cut off the ends of nylon tie straps. The feathery edges that are > left will not lacerate your hands like the razor sharp "clean" ends of > tie straps cut off with a normal dike every time you have to dive into > your cable bundles. > Or if you are going to use tie wraps instead of velcro (we do here for "permanent" wiring), spring for a good pair of flush cutters instead of dykes. The flush cutters will cut the tie wrap flush (hence the name :) ) with the clip, and you won't have a sharp piece of plastic left at all. True flush cutters can be hard to find though and you're going to pay twice what you pay for a cheap pair of dykes. -- Dan Rich | http://www.employees.org/~drich/ | "Step up to red alert!" "Are you sure, sir? | It means changing the bulb in the sign..." | - Red Dwarf (BBC) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 08:45:15 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17GjEAe007865 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:45:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17GjEUG007860 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:45:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from morpheus.lapseofthought.com (adsl-66-124-80-202.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [66.124.80.202]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17GjCAe007845 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:45:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.lapseofthought.com [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by morpheus.lapseofthought.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k17Gj4c0000611 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:45:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drich@employees.org) Message-ID: <43E8CE90.9060907@employees.org> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 08:45:04 -0800 From: Dan Rich User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hilton CC: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.3 required=6.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100,RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100,RAZOR2_CHECK, SPF_HELO_PASS,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on morpheus.lapseofthought.com Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Dave Hilton wrote: > Velcro - yes it's great stuff, however, ever tried to thread pre-made > bundles through conduit or even a tight ladder when you made the bundles > with Velcro? That's where I use tie straps. > Panduit makes some stuff called "Tak Tape" that is perfect for this. It is basically the same as velcro, but with almost invisible hooks and loops. It looks like electrical tape when it is wrapped around a bundle of wires. The only drawback is that you can only use it on larger bundles, the roll I have behind me says no smaller than 5/8". -- Dan Rich | http://www.employees.org/~drich/ | "Step up to red alert!" "Are you sure, sir? | It means changing the bulb in the sign..." | - Red Dwarf (BBC) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 08:51:10 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17Gp8Ae008410 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:51:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17Gp8aA008409 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:51:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from Eng.Auburn.EDU (dns.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.10.13]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17Gp2Ad008402 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:51:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from netdir.eng.auburn.edu (IDENT:20663@netdir.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.12.3]) by Eng.Auburn.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17GorOZ009790; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:50:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by netdir.eng.auburn.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.6.4) with ESMTP id k17GopS11971; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:50:51 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: netdir.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:50:51 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: Dan Rich cc: Dave Hilton , Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: <43E8CDFD.2040200@employees.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Dan Rich wrote: > Dave Hilton wrote: > > Someone mentioned "dikes" = "diagonal cutters". > > > > Here is a handy, blood sparing tip: > > > > take a pair of cheap dikes, dull the edges ever-so-slightly, use these > > to cut off the ends of nylon tie straps. The feathery edges that are > > left will not lacerate your hands like the razor sharp "clean" ends of > > tie straps cut off with a normal dike every time you have to dive into > > your cable bundles. > > > Or if you are going to use tie wraps instead of velcro (we do here for > "permanent" wiring), spring for a good pair of flush cutters instead of > dykes. The flush cutters will cut the tie wrap flush (hence the name :) > ) with the clip, and you won't have a sharp piece of plastic left at > all. True flush cutters can be hard to find though and you're going to > pay twice what you pay for a cheap pair of dykes. > Hmm. seems like a tile nip would do it (haven't tried, but they do have a flush cut end) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 09:38:29 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17HcSAe009883 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:38:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17HcStr009882 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:38:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from bushido.realityfailure.org (dsl093-119-032.blt1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.93.119.32]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17HcOAe009875 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:38:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from bushido (bushido [10.0.0.10]) by bushido.realityfailure.org (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id k17HcF74028746 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:38:16 -0500 Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:38:15 -0500 (EST) From: John Jasen X-X-Sender: jjasen@bushido To: Dan Foster cc: Etaoin Shrdlu , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: <20060207111822.GE18308@catbert.org> Message-ID: References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <20060207111822.GE18308@catbert.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.4 (bushido.realityfailure.org [10.0.0.10]); Tue, 07 Feb 2006 12:38:16 -0500 (EST) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Dan Foster wrote: > They soon learn when they are told by very unamused and armed people > that they must permanently surrender these items, and that these items > now belong to the government without any hope of reclamation. > > I might describe The Look(TM) as being 'deer in headlights'... That is called "over the top bureaucratic power-tripping". If they don't, at the very least, post large, visible signs before a "point of no return", then how are you as a newcomer supposed to be away of such a policy and take appropriate measures? I wouldn't let it slide, even if they're unamused and armed guards. I'm sure they have superiors somewhere. -- -- John E. Jasen (jjasen@realityfailure.org) -- No one will sorrow for me when I die, because those who would -- are dead already. -- Lan Mandragoran, The Wheel of Time, New Spring From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 09:40:00 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17HdxAe009979 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17Hdwss009976 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17HdfAd009968 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:39:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Feb 2006 09:39:36 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.02,95,1139212800"; d="scan'208"; a="254045707:sNHT30792456" Received: from [10.21.145.224] (sjc-vpn7-480.cisco.com [10.21.145.224]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k17HdWQJ022094; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:39:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43E8DB4F.5050907@chycoski.com> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 09:39:27 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski Reply-To: rskiadmin@chycoski.com User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Hughes CC: Dan Rich , Dave Hilton , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Tile nippers are usually pretty big and heavy. I've had two pairs of very good flush cutters over the year - both made by Erem. The first Erem cutters finally broke apart after about 30 years of use, so I was forced to buy another pair. (Erem is related to/distributed by Xcelite in North America, so you'll find them at electronic suppliers like Fry's.) Anybody who touches my flush cutters, however, is likely to lose something they value, like part of their anatomy... (:-) Good flush cutters have very sharp, flush edges, but can be destroyed by improper use. And, they aren't cheap, expect to pay $35-50 for a good pair (Erem or Klein, for example). Mine first pair would not have lasted three decades if I had been willing to share them, unfortunately there are some things that you just need to be a little selfish with. Cheap flush cutters usually aren't worth the trouble - cheap tools are rarely worth the trouble, but cheap flush cutters are even worse because their blades usually don't align properly, and you're better off with a cheap pair of scissors. That's why I pay the price for Erem. By the way, the common use for flush cutters is when assembling circuit boards - cutting the leads flush helps preserve your skin when handling the board. I have 'barked' all of my knuckles on PC boards over the years... - Richard Doug Hughes wrote: >On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Dan Rich wrote: > > > >>Dave Hilton wrote: >> >> >>> Someone mentioned "dikes" = "diagonal cutters". >>> >>>Here is a handy, blood sparing tip: >>> >>>take a pair of cheap dikes, dull the edges ever-so-slightly, use these >>>to cut off the ends of nylon tie straps. The feathery edges that are >>>left will not lacerate your hands like the razor sharp "clean" ends of >>>tie straps cut off with a normal dike every time you have to dive into >>>your cable bundles. >>> >>> >>> >>Or if you are going to use tie wraps instead of velcro (we do here for >>"permanent" wiring), spring for a good pair of flush cutters instead of >>dykes. The flush cutters will cut the tie wrap flush (hence the name :) >>) with the clip, and you won't have a sharp piece of plastic left at >>all. True flush cutters can be hard to find though and you're going to >>pay twice what you pay for a cheap pair of dykes. >> >> >> > >Hmm. seems like a tile nip would do it (haven't tried, but >they do have a flush cut end) > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 09:50:24 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17HoMAe010733 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17HoMMM010731 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:50:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay03.pair.com (relay03.pair.com [209.68.5.17]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id k17HoJAd010722 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:50:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17308 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2006 17:50:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?64.3.116.42?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 7 Feb 2006 17:50:17 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 64.3.116.42 Message-ID: <43E8DE53.8030303@deaddrop.org> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 09:52:19 -0800 From: Etaoin Shrdlu Organization: dig @localhost TXT CHAOS version.bind User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.11) Gecko/20050728 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <20060207111822.GE18308@catbert.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk John Jasen wrote: > On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Dan Foster wrote: > >> They soon learn when they are told by very unamused and armed people >> that they must permanently surrender these items, and that these items >> now belong to the government without any hope of reclamation. >> >> I might describe The Look(TM) as being 'deer in headlights'... > > > That is called "over the top bureaucratic power-tripping". No, it isn't. It's called a classified installation, and the rules are known, and posted. > If they don't, at the very least, post large, visible signs before a > "point of no return", then how are you as a newcomer supposed to be > away of such a policy and take appropriate measures? They are posted. Trust me, they are. If you visit such places with any regularity, you will be advised of the rules. Some places allow you to leave things in the lobby, with the guard, and your name on it (or you can return it to your car). Others won't even let you on the property. It's a different world than you are used to. > I wouldn't let it slide, even if they're unamused and armed guards. > I'm sure they have superiors somewhere. The guards are just doing their job, which is (among other things) keeping out the electronic stuff that isn't supposed to be coming in. Some of it is still on a trust basis, but I suspect that won't be true for much longer. Any fool with a thumb drive can walk in, if they mean to do evil. Cameras are credit card thin, blue tooth is a USB attachment that is the same size as a thumb drive. These guys are just trying to stop the inadvertent exposures. -- Everyone picks and chooses, an infinite number of times a day. - David Phalen, One For the Road, in Analog, March 2001 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 09:54:27 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17HsQAe011042 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:54:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17HsQBE011041 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:54:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17HsOAe011029 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17HsOjh011027 for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from twobox.geeky.net (twobox.geeky.net [66.199.183.69]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k175K2Ae012083 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 21:20:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.100] (CPE0004e2d37cf9-CM0011ae928fc4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.197.143.214]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by twobox.geeky.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FBDA8BC00E for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 00:19:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43E82E0E.2060505@alumni.uwaterloo.ca> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 00:20:14 -0500 From: Dan Colquhoun User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> <04B59EFF-CFD6-4A71-B709-61E8C147B011@cyberdex.ca> In-Reply-To: <04B59EFF-CFD6-4A71-B709-61E8C147B011@cyberdex.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Trever Miller wrote: > > On 6-Feb-06, at 4:15 PM, Brad Knowles wrote: > >> So, the on-site Engineer took another drive with a functional logic >> board, removed the board (thus exposing the platters inside), then >> removed the dead logic board on the critical drive (thus exposing the >> platters inside), and swapped logic boards. Yes, he did this without >> being in a clean room. No, he did not breathe during the entire >> operation -- nor did anyone else in the room. Yes, we did back up the >> drive (with dd), just as soon as we could successfully communicate >> with it again. > > Been there, done that. Another handy trick is to put a drive with > failing bearings (and thus overheats pdq) into the deep freeze for about > 5-10 minutes then back into the system, power up, mount, copy stuff off > asap... Ditto. In 2000 there was a common problem in 6GB Western Digitals that required we do the logic board swap. In that case, however, nothing requiring a clean room was exposed, as the interface between the board and the platter/arm cassette was a row of about 16 jumper pins. Most drives I've taken the board off of interface in a safe way like this, or with a ribbon cable and connector. It's a handy trick, and a lot cheaper than a repair/recovery facilit! -- Dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 09:56:06 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17Hu6Ae011358 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:56:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17Hu5od011355 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:56:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org (mail.reptiles.org [198.96.119.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17Hu3Ad011347 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:56:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org([198.96.119.1] port=2317) (2557 bytes) by mail.reptiles.org([198.96.119.1] port=25) via TCP with esmtp (sender: ) id for ; (dest:remote)(R=bind_hosts)(T=inet_zone_bind_smtp) Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:55:07 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.118 2004-May-31 #3 built 2004-Oct-14) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:55:03 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Donal Cunningham cc: Brad Knowles , rskiadmin@chycoski.com, Jim Dennis , Dan Foster , Jennifer Davis , baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: <14cd29d50602060648q10f818cu714174a8048db985@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060207125221.O48561@skink.reptiles.org> References: <20060204004747.GA16075@catbert.org> <20060204063656.GC20628@starshine.org> <43E4D91C.7090906@chycoski.com> <14cd29d50602060648q10f818cu714174a8048db985@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 6 Feb 2006, Donal Cunningham wrote: > One thing I picked up recently (thank you Uncle Ebay) was a 4-port 10/100 > Mbps hub (no, not a switch - a Netgear DS104, for those who are > interested). Useful for port sniffing. I know it's a bit much for a > newhire, but useful for the more long-toothed sysadmin/network engineer. I'm rather annoyed that mine has grown legs and walked. I'm still waiting for a replacement... It's not exactly a tool, but I carry cliff bars and/or luna bars with my tools. It's infinitely better to have -something- you can snack on when you're stuck in the datacenter for hours[0]... Speaking of the datacenter, I've taken to bringing one of the foam pads that you use to sit/kneel on while gardening. It's infinitely nicer on the behind than sitting right on the floor tiles - ditto if you're stuck working at an awkward angle, and need to lean. cheers! [0] ... and when I remember, a fleece ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 10:01:47 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17I1lAe011907 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:01:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17I1kmT011904 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay03.pair.com (relay03.pair.com [209.68.5.17]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id k17I1iAd011897 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:01:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 21922 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2006 18:01:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?64.3.116.42?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 7 Feb 2006 18:01:43 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 64.3.116.42 Message-ID: <43E8E100.7040100@deaddrop.org> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 10:03:44 -0800 From: Etaoin Shrdlu Organization: dig @localhost TXT CHAOS version.bind User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.11) Gecko/20050728 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <20060207111822.GE18308@catbert.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Sorry, Brad, you'll see this twice. (sent to Brad instead of the list, first time) Brad Knowles wrote: > At 6:18 AM -0500 2006-02-07, Dan Foster wrote: > >> I've always been amused by the look on first-time contractors whom >> visits a very highly secured facility... and I don't mean 'corporate', >> either... and they make the mistake of bringing a pager or mobile phone >> on-site. > I think Brad misunderstands, here. The Pentagon is secure, sure, but there are other places *much* more secure, and they do indeed have these rules. >> They soon learn when they are told by very unamused and armed people >> that they must permanently surrender these items, and that these items >> now belong to the government without any hope of reclamation. > > > The government didn't do that when I was working there, and I was > in the National Military Command Center within the Pentagon, and you > had to have a TS/SBI clearance to get in the door. Yes, they did. If you brought your crap into a closed area, you got to leave it. Even then. Sure, if you're smart, you note the sign on the door that saves leave your crap here, in the lobby (or at the desk). In some installations (think TLA, not the DoD), there's a sign on the gate that warns you that your stuff can't even come into the parking lot. Seems easy enough, and yet people try. Those rules were in place then, and they're even stricter now. I've PERSONALLY destroyed items. > Yes, they take the beepers and phones. But they label them with your > name, and give them back to you when you leave. Only if you're smart enough to identify that you have them *before* you go into the area. I'm an expert at disassembling hard drives. Parts go in this box, platters go over there. Box goes to hazmat, platters go to the _eternal flame of destruction_ yes, indeed, they do. I *just* retired from that life, and I was the ISSO for the project I was on. Them's the rules. > The thing that always pissed me off was that action officers and > civilians actually stationed there would walk in with precisely the > same make & model of beeper and/or phone, and they would not be > required to leave theirs, while I was required to leave mine. Ah, but they had paperwork permitting it (which you can't get for all areas, in any case). >> Subsequently, they do not ever bring in anything that they want to >> bring >> back out -- because nothing goes back out. >> >> (And, yes, that applies to even failed hardware, for the unaware.) > Disassemble. I *love* disassemble. It's my favorite. I had nearly every bit you could think of, and we bought drill bits in large amounts (for those few who had screws that were not meant to come out, damn you Maxstor). I also love magnets. I had a stack large enough to be a local magnetic pole for your compass, oh, yes I did. Old SCSI drives have the best magnets. > Did I mention the time that my Dad brought in his nice 35mm SLR > camera into the NMCC? > > Yes, he got it back out again. Yes, it was in my backpack. No, > we never took it out of the backpack. Yes, we were hoping that no one > would ask what was in my backpack. Nice. I don't know that I'd have admitted that, but then, my Dad wouldn't have been going into a classified place, and there certainly wouldn't have been any camera. Had there been one, it would have stayed behind, including film. Some areas have rules that allow things like the Palm IIIe, as long as the IR is taped over, others don't even allow the little RSA SecureID things. -- Everyone picks and chooses, an infinite number of times a day. - David Phalen, One For the Road, in Analog, March 2001 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 10:06:50 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17I6mAe012260 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:06:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17I6maq012257 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:06:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17I6fAd012241 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Feb 2006 10:06:36 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.02,95,1139212800"; d="scan'208"; a="254053549:sNHT31258092" Received: from [10.21.145.224] (sjc-vpn7-480.cisco.com [10.21.145.224]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k17I6ZQJ008084; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:06:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43E8E1A5.1080304@chycoski.com> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 10:06:29 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski Reply-To: rskiadmin@chycoski.com User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cat Okita CC: Donal Cunningham , Brad Knowles , Jim Dennis , Dan Foster , Jennifer Davis , baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <20060204004747.GA16075@catbert.org> <20060204063656.GC20628@starshine.org> <43E4D91C.7090906@chycoski.com> <14cd29d50602060648q10f818cu714174a8048db985@mail.gmail.com> <20060207125221.O48561@skink.reptiles.org> In-Reply-To: <20060207125221.O48561@skink.reptiles.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Cat Okita wrote: > It's not exactly a tool, but I carry cliff bars and/or luna bars with > my tools. It's infinitely better to have -something- you can snack on > when you're stuck in the datacenter for hours[0]... > If you get caught with food or drink in our Data Centres, you may no longer have DC access... and yes, we post signs on the doors. (:-) > Speaking of the datacenter, I've taken to bringing one of the foam > pads that you use to sit/kneel on while gardening. It's infinitely > nicer on the behind than sitting right on the floor tiles - ditto if > you're stuck working at an awkward angle, and need to lean. > > cheers! > [0] ... and when I remember, a fleece I'll second that - having become hypothermic to the point of being unable to type (or think) when working at a console located right near a large air conditioner 'strategically placed' to refrigerate the row of PDP11s and anyone who worked on them. (:-) - Richard From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 10:09:29 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17I9SAe012591 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:09:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17I9RZ5012585 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:09:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org (mail.reptiles.org [198.96.119.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17I9PAd012575 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:09:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org([198.96.119.1] port=1464) (2630 bytes) by mail.reptiles.org([198.96.119.1] port=25) via TCP with esmtp (sender: ) id for ; (dest:remote)(R=bind_hosts)(T=inet_zone_bind_smtp) Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:08:28 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.118 2004-May-31 #3 built 2004-Oct-14) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:08:28 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Richard Chycoski cc: Donal Cunningham , Brad Knowles , Jim Dennis , Dan Foster , Jennifer Davis , baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: <43E8E1A5.1080304@chycoski.com> Message-ID: <20060207130657.H48561@skink.reptiles.org> References: <20060204004747.GA16075@catbert.org> <20060204063656.GC20628@starshine.org> <43E4D91C.7090906@chycoski.com> <14cd29d50602060648q10f818cu714174a8048db985@mail.gmail.com> <20060207125221.O48561@skink.reptiles.org> <43E8E1A5.1080304@chycoski.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Richard Chycoski wrote: >> It's not exactly a tool, but I carry cliff bars and/or luna bars with >> my tools. It's infinitely better to have -something- you can snack on >> when you're stuck in the datacenter for hours[0]... >> > If you get caught with food or drink in our Data Centres, you may no longer > have DC access... and yes, we post signs on the doors. (:-) Heh. No - not for consumption -in- the datacenter. That's almost never worth the hassle. That'd be "step out of the freezer for 5, eat something, hydrate[0], and then get back to work". > I'll second that - having become hypothermic to the point of being unable to > type (or think) when working at a console located right near a large air > conditioner 'strategically placed' to refrigerate the row of PDP11s and > anyone who worked on them. (:-) Heh. Indeed. cheers! [0] ... and it's -really- easy to get badly dehydrated in the datacenter ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 10:21:01 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17IL1Ae013292 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:21:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17IL0J6013290 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:21:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17IKvAd013282 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:20:57 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:20:52 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Thread-Index: AcYsApBRZJC7uSOtTVGoamPVQBkBfAAEASHg From: "Dave Hilton" To: "SAGE Members" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k17IL0Ad013285 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >From EATOIN: "Ah, hardware. I love hardware." I've been following this thread, marveling at the spread between hardware folks and non-hardware folks, with something nibbling around in my noggin. EATOIN, you just hit on it! "You can kick hardware, all you can do is cuss software." - - - Hilton Over thirty years in this business, and I'd still rather fix something with a soldering gun or wirewrap pencil than a line of code or a library update. Ya gotta love this life.......... From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 10:23:01 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17IN1Ae013420 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:23:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17IN1bc013418 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:23:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17IMwAd013411 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:22:59 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:22:54 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Thread-Index: AcYsBYRquwL9jXnUQfG2L8w39zuNmAADcl1Q From: "Dave Hilton" To: "Dan Rich" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k17IMxAd013414 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Let me show you my scars from "flush cut" tie straps. I mean "flesh cut" tie straps...... Dan said: Or if you are going to use tie wraps instead of velcro (we do here for "permanent" wiring), spring for a good pair of flush cutters instead of dykes. The flush cutters will cut the tie wrap flush (hence the name :) ) with the clip, and you won't have a sharp piece of plastic left at all. True flush cutters can be hard to find though and you're going to pay twice what you pay for a cheap pair of dykes. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 11:11:29 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17JBTAe015162 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:11:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17JBSTk015161 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from chiba.halibut.com (IDENT:rduke@chiba.halibut.com [216.171.136.10]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id k17JBPAd015146 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:11:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 24595 invoked by uid 10174); 7 Feb 2006 19:11:11 -0000 Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:11:11 -0800 From: David Carmean To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Electrical safety: EPO? Message-ID: <20060207111111.G23063@halibut.com> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Greetings, Some of our new "labs" (datacenter-like rooms but with unfettered access for software dev and QA people, with the expected resultant chaos) have been built with overhead Starline track busway for AC mains power, above the equipment racks. Each 15/20-A branch circuit is provided in a plug-in box with a receptacle and circuit breaker. There are generally two of these boxes per rack. The 225-A breakers that feed each bus are off in locked electrical rooms, and we the sysadmins have one key to share among the ten of us to access those rooms, and currently don't have any access at all to the electrical rooms in our newest building. Our Facilities people basically designed these labs with minimal input from the sysadmins who maintain them, and threw them over the wall to us. I had personally been involved in other projects and hadn't been asked for any input. After these labs were brought up, I realized that in the event of a fire in a rack, if the branch circuit breaker doesn't trip, the only way to manually trip them is to grab a ladder, put it next to the rack that's on fire, and reach through the smoke and heat and trip the breaker. It would probably take a good ten minutes to get a security "guard" to open an electrical room in an emergency. Also of interest: the fire suppresion systems in those labs are overhead water sprinklers. In our new labs in the Boston area, there are EPO buttons as mandated by law. But apparently no such law covers our labs in California, so there are no EPO buttons. I'm looking for experiences, anecdotes, horror stories about EPO systems, especially in the SF Bay Area legal/regulatory environment, to help my manager decide whether we can justify the expense and disruption to the running labs to retrofit EPO systems. Thanks. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 11:12:49 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17JClAe015255 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17JCl2F015253 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17JCcAd015235 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:12:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Feb 2006 11:12:32 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.02,95,1139212800"; d="scan'208"; a="254069427:sNHT29708596" Received: from [10.21.145.224] (sjc-vpn7-480.cisco.com [10.21.145.224]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k17JCWc1002134; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:12:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43E8F11B.4060401@chycoski.com> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 11:12:27 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hilton CC: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Dave Hilton wrote: >From EATOIN: > >"Ah, hardware. I love hardware." > >I've been following this thread, marveling at the spread between >hardware folks and non-hardware folks, with something nibbling around in >my noggin. EATOIN, you just hit on it! > >"You can kick hardware, all you can do is cuss software." >- - - Hilton > >Over thirty years in this business, and I'd still rather fix something >with a soldering gun or wirewrap pencil than a line of code or a library >update. > >Ya gotta love this life.......... > > Heh - I like them both - especially when you mix them. Fixing code with a sledge hammer is especially satisfying! I've been (and am) both a hardware and software geek. I'd rather work on software for a living, but often prefer working on hardware (or combined projects) at home. I have access to better tools at home. (:-) - Richard From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 11:22:32 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17JMVAe015987 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:22:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17JMVqB015985 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:22:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.indeterminate.net (host-8.colo.spiretech.com [207.173.206.8]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17JMKAd015974 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:22:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from olivia.indeterminate.net (olivia.indeterminate.net [207.173.206.8]) by mail.indeterminate.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id k17JLo011546; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:21:50 -0800 Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:21:50 -0800 (PST) From: John Costello To: Cat Okita cc: baylisa@baylisa.org, Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: <20060207130657.H48561@skink.reptiles.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 'clamd / ClamAV version 0.65', clamav-milter version '0.60p' Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Cat Okita wrote: > [0] ... and it's -really- easy to get badly dehydrated in the datacenter Ear plugs. It isn't so bad in the small server rooms (10x10), but after half an hour in a large DC my ears are ringing. ----- John Costello - cos at indeterminate dot net From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 11:48:52 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17JmpAe017388 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:48:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17JmpOU017387 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:48:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntp1.ntp.isc.org (ntp1.ntp.isc.org [204.152.184.126]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17JmnAd017375 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:48:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntp1.ntp.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0AAE39B2C; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 19:48:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from ntp1.ntp.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ntp1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09377-01; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 19:48:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntp1.ntp.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 19:48:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <43E8DE53.8030303@deaddrop.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <20060207111822.GE18308@catbert.org> <43E8DE53.8030303@deaddrop.org> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 20:07:55 +0100 To: Etaoin Shrdlu From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: SAGE Members Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on ntp1.isc.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 9:52 AM -0800 2006-02-07, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: >> That is called "over the top bureaucratic power-tripping". > > No, it isn't. It's called a classified installation, and the rules > are known, and posted. If they took stuff of mine and wouldn't give it back to me, I would be very, very sorely pissed. At least, if they didn't give me proper warning. There were no signs at the NMCC that specified that beepers and phones weren't allowed, but the guards did ask every person who came through if they had anything. I'm sure that things have since changed, and signs have now been posted. > The guards are just doing their job, which is (among other things) keeping > out the electronic stuff that isn't supposed to be coming in. Some of it > is still on a trust basis, but I suspect that won't be true for much > longer. Any fool with a thumb drive can walk in, if they mean to do evil. > Cameras are credit card thin, blue tooth is a USB attachment that is the > same size as a thumb drive. These guys are just trying to stop the > inadvertent exposures. There are also cameras you can wear as a watch, as well as USB data storage devices in a watch. And when I worked there, the guards would keep you from bringing in a beeper or a phone, but they didn't check bags on the way out. It would be trivially easy to simply stuff your briefcase with classified data. This is why they go through all those expensive background checks, because the only thing that really keeps anyone from walking off with data is the trust that you place in them. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 11:49:05 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17Jn4Ae017426 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:49:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17Jn4hU017424 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:49:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntp1.ntp.isc.org (ntp1.ntp.isc.org [204.152.184.126]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17Jn2Ad017405 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:49:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntp1.ntp.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC6239B74; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 19:48:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from ntp1.ntp.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ntp1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09377-02; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 19:48:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntp1.ntp.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 19:48:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <43E8E100.7040100@deaddrop.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <20060207111822.GE18308@catbert.org> <43E8E100.7040100@deaddrop.org> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 20:43:33 +0100 To: Etaoin Shrdlu From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: SAGE Members Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on ntp1.isc.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 10:03 AM -0800 2006-02-07, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: > I think Brad misunderstands, here. The Pentagon is secure, sure, but > there are other places *much* more secure, and they do indeed have these > rules. I was talking about the National Military Command Center. You need a TS/SBI to be walking around there, which is the same level of clearance you need to be walking around at Ft. Meade (NSA) or Langley (CIA). That's the same facility where the Colin Powell (Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time) took his daily briefings on the status of Desert Shield/Desert Storm. That's the same facility that has the Crisis Action Center, the central location in the Pentagon where they track the Defcon status of the various unified and specified commands. I have only ever personally heard of one military or government facility that is more secure than the NMCC, and that's the OSD Crisis Coordination Center -- right next door. The OSDCCC was using retina scans back before this kind of thing even showed up in the movies. If you look on certain unclassified maps of the Pentagon, you will see where the NMCC is located. But the OSDCCC doesn't show up on any unclassified map I've ever seen. >> The government didn't do that when I was working there, and I was in >> the National Military Command Center within the Pentagon, and you had to >> have a TS/SBI clearance to get in the door. > > Yes, they did. If you brought your crap into a closed area, you got to > leave it. Even then. No, not in the NMCC. There were at least one or two times when I went into the NMCC and accidentally kept my pager, and I wasn't strip-searched at gun point. They didn't take it away from me, and although they would not have allowed me to keep it while I was in the NMCC, they would not have kept it permanently. > Sure, if you're smart, you note the sign on the > door that saves leave your crap here, in the lobby (or at the desk). In > some installations (think TLA, not the DoD), there's a sign on the gate > that warns you that your stuff can't even come into the parking lot. > Seems easy enough, and yet people try. Those rules were in place then, > and they're even stricter now. I've PERSONALLY destroyed items. There may be other places where the rules are stricter. Heck, even the NMCC may be stricter now. >> Yes, they take the beepers and phones. But they label them with your >> name, and give them back to you when you leave. > > Only if you're smart enough to identify that you have them *before* you > go into the area. In the NMCC, the guards who take your beepers and phones are actually outside the area itself. So there's no reason why they should just automatically take all beepers and phones and destroy them because you would have already violated the rules. > I'm an expert at disassembling hard drives. Parts go > in this box, platters go over there. Box goes to hazmat, platters go to > the _eternal flame of destruction_ yes, indeed, they do. I *just* > retired from that life, and I was the ISSO for the project I was on. > Them's the rules. I filled more than a few burn bags. I never disassembled any disk drives while there, because if any of them failed we would just chuck the whole device, logic boards and all. Actually, we had contractors who were responsible for properly disposing of the failed drives. But for declassifying removable media, we normally used a large electromagnet -- about the same size and shape as a large microwave oven. You would hand the medai to the people who were cleared to use this device, they would go back into the back of the office, place the media inside the demagnetizer, then walk around the corner (where they were protected from any potential explosion, or negative side effects from strong electromagnetic waves), and "zap" it. You would hear this huge "WHOMP" sound all the way down the hallway -- that is, halfway down one of the sides of the building, out on the E-ring (IIRC, one trip around the E-ring is a mile, so one half of one side would be about 1/10th of a mile). > Disassemble. I *love* disassemble. It's my favorite. I had nearly every > bit you could think of, and we bought drill bits in large amounts (for > those few who had screws that were not meant to come out, damn you > Maxstor). I also love magnets. I had a stack large enough to be a local > magnetic pole for your compass, oh, yes I did. Old SCSI drives have the > best magnets. Imprimis/Seagate Wren VII drives were the first 5.25" desktop-grade model with a capacity in excess of 1GB of storage, and they used a new formula for the magnets -- Neodymium Iron. This is the same type of magnet that is now sold in various places as "Unusually Strong". I interned at Imprimis/Seagate for three months, and I knew the manufacturing engineer, and he was kind enough to give me some of the magnets from some of the early samples which were tested to destruction. You *cannot* get those damn things off the fridge! Well, you can't get them off by pulling -- you have to slide them to one side or another, where you can get them to a corner and then pivot them away from the surface. > Nice. I don't know that I'd have admitted that, but then, my Dad > wouldn't have been going into a classified place, and there certainly > wouldn't have been any camera. Had there been one, it would have stayed > behind, including film. Some areas have rules that allow things like the > Palm IIIe, as long as the IR is taped over, others don't even allow the > little RSA SecureID things. I had escort privileges, and we made sure that the camera was fully secure for the entire time that my parents were in the NMCC -- including the time when they were on the balcony overlooking the CAC. Had they found us, they might have taken the camera and developed the film, but they wouldn't have found anything. We may have forgotten that he had his camera with him and brought it inside the area, but we did keep it properly secured during the entire time. And I'm never again going to work in a classified environment. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 11:53:25 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17JrOAe017920 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:53:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17JrNMR017917 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:53:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxsf37.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf37.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.162]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17JrLAd017894 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:53:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net (mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.146]) by mxsf37.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k17Jr7pv028768 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:53:11 -0500 Received: from 66-189-53-50.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com (HELO jfsnew) ([66.189.53.50]) by mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 07 Feb 2006 14:53:07 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.02,95,1139202000"; d="scan'208"; a="2107422593:sNHT18669332" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17384.64162.429503.137635@smtp.charter.net> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:53:06 -0500 From: "John Stoffel" To: Doug Hanks Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.4.1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Doug> How many of you actually use all these hardware tools? I've Doug> been a SA for 8 years and I've never had to worry about Doug> hardware. We let the grunts that work for Sun or IBM support do Doug> all the hardware replacement. We've always had support Doug> contracts. Even when we had support contracts, I've always been a hands on type of guy. The engineers that get sent out don't always know what the hell they're doing... Doug> The only time I remember messing with hardware is when I dealt Doug> with PCs. I remember that is the reason I moved to larger Doug> computing systems; I've loathed messing around with hardware. And I like it. Different strokes for diff'rent folks. Doug> Just found it surprising that people still mess with hardware. Doug> Do you work for smaller companies that cannot afford support Doug> contracts or do you just enjoy working on hardware and your Doug> employer trusts you enough to stick a screwdriver in a million Doug> dollar server? Would that void the support contract? I've rarely had the luxury of million dollar servers, even in big companies, but I've certainly worked on all kinds of systems. I remember rolling around a rack of fully loaded E420Rs which cost more than my house at the time... It was an interesting perspective. John From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 12:12:30 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17KCSAe018764 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17KCSO3018763 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:12:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxsf01.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf01.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.201]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17KCPAd018752 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:12:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxip34a.cluster1.charter.net (mxip34a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.249]) by mxsf01.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k17KCHSn010893 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:12:19 -0500 Received: from 66-189-53-50.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com (HELO jfsnew) ([66.189.53.50]) by mxip34a.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 07 Feb 2006 15:12:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17384.65312.797092.644336@smtp.charter.net> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:12:16 -0500 From: "John Stoffel" To: John Jasen Cc: Dan Foster , Doug Hanks , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.4.1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk John> I've seen the recommendations for the Leathermans and the John> Gerbers repeatedly. Interestingly enough, I agree with the John> generality of carrying a multitool, but I've found the SwissTool John> to be a better fit. Anyone else, or am I just odd? I think the leathermans/Gerbers make lousy pliers and worse knives. My most useful tool is the Swiss Army knife I carry. It's the "Spartan" model. I just wish it has the philips head of the "Tinker" or "Explorer" models. It's my most useful and used tool for the simple reason that it's always with me, except when I travel on planes now. Grrr... It's small, light, useful. I value the cork screw just slightly more than the philips head screw driver. John> FWIW, I also think a single-purpose pocket knife is also a good John> idea. You mean one with just a single blade? I don't generally need a knife that beefy, nor do I want to carry one in a belt pouch. I prefer to keep it all in my pockets. The next most useful took is an LED flash light key fob. Don't keep my keys on it, but it's in my pocket all the time. Very very very useful and handy to have around. Hey! A Swiss army knife with an LED light would be awesome. If it's small enough... size is key here. John From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 12:20:32 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17KKVAe019165 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:20:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17KKV85019164 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:20:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from Eng.Auburn.EDU (dns.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.10.13]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17KKRAd019157 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:20:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from netdir.eng.auburn.edu (netdir.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.12.3]) by Eng.Auburn.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17KKIOZ018902; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:20:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by netdir.eng.auburn.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.6.4) with ESMTP id k17KKGh12220; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:20:16 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: netdir.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:20:16 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: John Stoffel cc: John Jasen , Dan Foster , Doug Hanks , Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: <17384.65312.797092.644336@smtp.charter.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, John Stoffel wrote: > Hey! A Swiss army knife with an LED light would be awesome. If it's > small enough... size is key here. I've got a really tiny one. but it only has a little 2" blade, a file/flat screwdriver, a pen, a 64MB USB thumb drive, a scissors and a little red led.. not really something you could use for reading, but it would help you find a keyhole in the dark. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 12:23:29 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17KNTAe019467 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:23:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17KNTpm019465 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:23:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17KNLAd019456 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:23:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Feb 2006 12:23:16 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.02,95,1139212800"; d="scan'208"; a="254086031:sNHT29982056" Received: from [10.21.145.224] (sjc-vpn7-480.cisco.com [10.21.145.224]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k17KNGQJ015766; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:23:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43E901AE.30103@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 12:23:10 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles CC: Etaoin Shrdlu , SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <20060207111822.GE18308@catbert.org> <43E8DE53.8030303@deaddrop.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Brad Knowles wrote: > At 9:52 AM -0800 2006-02-07, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: > >>> That is called "over the top bureaucratic power-tripping". >> >> >> No, it isn't. It's called a classified installation, and the rules >> are known, and posted. > > > If they took stuff of mine and wouldn't give it back to me, I > would be very, very sorely pissed. At least, if they didn't give me > proper warning. Anyone who enters classified installations without thinking about such things and divesting themselves of the devices before hand deserves the object lesson. If you don't understand why such devices should not be returned, think about a scenario where a black hat has either replaced one of your devices with a 'custom crafted' one, or has even just managed to download a virus to your phone making is possible for the black hat to listen in, watch (on camera phones) or record everything that goes on inside that classified installation. Yes, it's going to cost you some money to replace that device, but it's far cheaper than the potential security risk, and I'll bet you don't do it again! I do agree that signs should be posted before the-point-of-no-return-of-your-hardware, but if I were to make such a mistake, I would be more pissed at myself than at the guards doing their job - also remember, they're the ones carrying the guns, and getting upset with them will not improve your day... the same tack that I take when crossing borders. Tell them everything and anything they want to know, be polite, give them no reason to 'take measures'. I've been apprised that 'full body cavity search' is an 'experience to be missed'. (:-) - Richard From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 12:24:04 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17KO3Ae019546 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:24:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17KO21J019545 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:24:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from westnet.com (root@westnet.com [206.24.6.2]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17KNwAd019540 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:23:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from westnet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by westnet.com (8.13.3/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k17KNsQM020773 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:23:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (levins@localhost) by westnet.com (8.13.3/8.13.2/Submit) with ESMTP id k17KNsV7020769 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:23:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:23:54 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Levin To: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: <17384.65312.797092.644336@smtp.charter.net> Message-ID: References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> <17384.65312.797092.644336@smtp.charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, John Stoffel wrote: > Hey! A Swiss army knife with an LED light would be awesome. If it's > small enough... size is key here. You mean this? http://www.wengerna.com/browse/product.jsp?prod_id=4&cat_id=1&cat_name=Knives&sub_cat_id=19 -Adam From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 12:29:39 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17KTcAe020219 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:29:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17KTchF020218 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxsf17.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf17.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.217]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17KTZAd020206 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:29:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net (mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.147]) by mxsf17.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k17KTSue028441 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:29:29 -0500 Received: from 66-189-53-50.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com (HELO jfsnew) (66.189.53.50) by mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 07 Feb 2006 15:29:28 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.02,95,1139202000"; d="scan'208"; a="2096391348:sNHT16541024" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17385.805.19425.755703@smtp.charter.net> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:29:25 -0500 From: "John Stoffel" To: Dan Rich Cc: Doug Hanks , Etaoin Shrdlu , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: <43E7D4A3.7020005@employees.org> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> <43E7D4A3.7020005@employees.org> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.4.1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Dan" == Dan Rich writes: Dan> If you have a maglite, I can't say enough nice things about these LED Dan> retrofit kits (the MiniStar2): Dan> http://www.terralux.biz/products/index.htm Now this is a great product. Pricy as hell though, almost cheaper to get some mini-mags and keep the spares around. But I'll be thinking about these for Xmas/Birthdays for sure. I must have half a dozen mag lights around... John From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 12:40:56 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17KetAe020767 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:40:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17Ket04020766 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:40:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.1.72]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17KeqAd020759 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:40:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix1.panix.com (panix1.panix.com [166.84.1.1]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE65F5963F; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:40:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from jac@localhost) by panix1.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id k17KeqR06848; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:40:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:40:52 -0800 From: John Clear To: John Costello Cc: baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: <20060207204051.GA1681@panix.com> References: <20060207130657.H48561@skink.reptiles.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 11:21:50AM -0800, John Costello wrote: > On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Cat Okita wrote: > > [0] ... and it's -really- easy to get badly dehydrated in the datacenter > > Ear plugs. It isn't so bad in the small server rooms (10x10), but after > half an hour in a large DC my ears are ringing. I use clam shell style ear muffs anytime I'm in my data centers. My main data center is just uncomfortably loud, my other one makes your ears ring after just a few seconds in the room. Conversation is still possible, since the ear muffs dont block out much in the voice range, and even without hearing protection, you need to shout to be heard over the noise. I've looked into active hearing protection a bit, but most of what I've found is geared toward lower frequency construction type noise, and not the higher frequency fans and such that you find in a data center. Anybody find any good active hearing protection, preferably something that lets you hook up a cell phone to it? John From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 12:56:32 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17KuRAe021371 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:56:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17KuRN0021370 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:56:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17Ku6Ad021357 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:56:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Feb 2006 12:56:02 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.02,95,1139212800"; d="scan'208"; a="1774272588:sNHT31578298" Received: from [10.21.145.224] (sjc-vpn7-480.cisco.com [10.21.145.224]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k17Ku0c1018558; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:56:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43E9095B.1060200@chycoski.com> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 12:55:55 -0800 From: Richard Chycoski Reply-To: rskiadmin@chycoski.com User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Clear CC: John Costello , baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <20060207130657.H48561@skink.reptiles.org> <20060207204051.GA1681@panix.com> In-Reply-To: <20060207204051.GA1681@panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I have a pair of custom molded 'Noise Brakers'. They have a little valve in them that lets the pressure equalise and makes it possible to hold a conversation (although not as transparent as noise reducing headphones, you're right that the latter are useless in a DC). I got them at Sears (in Canada) in the hearing aid department, but this was many years ago. I don't know if Sears still does this (in Canada or the US), but you might try suppliers of hearing aids or industrial ear protection. They're not quite as effective as full ear muffs, but they are very good. They're also translucent and relatively unobtrusive - e.g., if you want to sleep through a meeting... (:-) Also - remember to relax as much as possible when they're taking the mold, which involves pouring a compound called 'Audilin' (I think) into your ear. I had to have one ear redone because of fit, mostly because I had clenched my jaw too much when the mold was made. It's not at all painful, just strange to have cold wet molding compound in your ear... - Richard John Clear wrote: >On Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 11:21:50AM -0800, John Costello wrote: > > >>On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Cat Okita wrote: >> >> >>>[0] ... and it's -really- easy to get badly dehydrated in the datacenter >>> >>> >>Ear plugs. It isn't so bad in the small server rooms (10x10), but after >>half an hour in a large DC my ears are ringing. >> >> > >I use clam shell style ear muffs anytime I'm in my data centers. >My main data center is just uncomfortably loud, my other one makes >your ears ring after just a few seconds in the room. Conversation >is still possible, since the ear muffs dont block out much in the >voice range, and even without hearing protection, you need to shout >to be heard over the noise. > >I've looked into active hearing protection a bit, but most of what >I've found is geared toward lower frequency construction type noise, >and not the higher frequency fans and such that you find in a data >center. > >Anybody find any good active hearing protection, preferably something >that lets you hook up a cell phone to it? > >John > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 13:00:28 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17L0RAe021606 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:00:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17L0Rqr021602 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:00:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17L0LAd021591 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:00:22 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] Electrical safety: EPO? Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:00:16 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Electrical safety: EPO? Thread-Index: AcYsGxf83nkU4JF3RLqLQDllG4ddRwADiDXQ From: "Dave Hilton" To: "David Carmean" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k17L0QAd021597 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk " But apparently no such law covers our labs in California, so there are no EPO buttons. " I would encourage you to check again. We were required to install them in each room protected by our 135KVA UPS. We're in Foster City. Hilton From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 13:08:24 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17L8NAe022187 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:08:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17L8M8L022186 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:08:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamhock.hoovers.com (hamhock-outbound.hoovers.com [66.179.38.26]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17L8KAd022177 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:08:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.ad.austin.hoovers.com (mercury.ad.austin.hoovers.com [66.179.38.7]) by hamhock.hoovers.com (HamHock-OUTBOUND) with ESMTP id 830DFF764 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:08:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from [66.179.38.59] ([66.179.38.59]) by mercury.ad.austin.hoovers.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:08:15 -0600 Message-ID: <43E90C3E.5090601@hoovers.com> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 15:08:14 -0600 From: Frank Smith User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Carmean CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Electrical safety: EPO? References: <20060207111111.G23063@halibut.com> In-Reply-To: <20060207111111.G23063@halibut.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Feb 2006 21:08:15.0387 (UTC) FILETIME=[9C9496B0:01C62C2A] Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk David Carmean wrote: > Greetings, > > Some of our new "labs" (datacenter-like rooms but with unfettered access for > software dev and QA people, with the expected resultant chaos) have been built > with overhead Starline track busway for AC mains power, above the equipment > racks. Each 15/20-A branch circuit is provided in a plug-in box with a receptacle > and circuit breaker. There are generally two of these boxes per rack. > > The 225-A breakers that feed each bus are off in locked electrical rooms, > and we the sysadmins have one key to share among the ten of us to access > those rooms, and currently don't have any access at all to the electrical > rooms in our newest building. Our Facilities people basically designed these > labs with minimal input from the sysadmins who maintain them, and threw them > over the wall to us. I had personally been involved in other projects and > hadn't been asked for any input. > > After these labs were brought up, I realized that in the event of a fire in a > rack, if the branch circuit breaker doesn't trip, the only way to manually > trip them is to grab a ladder, put it next to the rack that's on fire, and > reach through the smoke and heat and trip the breaker. It would probably take > a good ten minutes to get a security "guard" to open an electrical room in an > emergency. Also of interest: the fire suppresion systems in those labs are > overhead water sprinklers. There's usually not much to burn in a rack except the cables, so there shouldn't be much chance of a fire. In some localities, a water sprinkler is still required even if you have FM-200 or some other suppression system, but it could a pre-action sprinkler system to minimize the risk of unnecessary water damage. Certainly something to discuss with the sprinkler people, since water and electronics don't generally mix with good results. > > In our new labs in the Boston area, there are EPO buttons as mandated by > law. But apparently no such law covers our labs in California, so there > are no EPO buttons. I would consider that a good thing, especially with untrained people wandering around. See below. > > I'm looking for experiences, anecdotes, horror stories about EPO systems, > especially in the SF Bay Area legal/regulatory environment, to help my > manager decide whether we can justify the expense and disruption to the > running labs to retrofit EPO systems. We had several racks in a colo with an EPO button near the door, fairly close, and similar to, the button you had to push to unlock the door to go out. Someone pushed it one day thinking it was the door button and took down many hundreds of servers. A bigger sign was put over it, but a couple of months later it happened again. A clear plastic box was put around it (similar to the ones sometimes used around thermostats), but just to prove that you can't cure stupid, it somehow got hit again. Needless to say, we moved out of there as soon as we could, and don't locate servers anywhere where there is an easily accessible EPO switch. If you really feel the need, the cheapest retrofit option would be to put a regular electrical disconnect at or near the end of your busway. That Starline busway makes a very nice and flexible power distribution system, BTW. I like being able to power an additional rack just by buying and plugging in a box instead of having to call an electrician. Frank > > Thanks. > -- Frank Smith fsmith@hoovers.com Sr. Systems Administrator Voice: 512-374-4673 Hoover's Online Fax: 512-374-4501 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 13:12:05 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17LC3Ae022449 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:12:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17LC2ZO022445 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:12:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxsf30.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf30.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.230]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17LC0Ad022406 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:12:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxip28a.cluster1.charter.net (mxip28a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.187]) by mxsf30.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k17LBoFb011878 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:11:50 -0500 Received: from 66-189-53-50.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com (HELO jfsnew) ([66.189.53.50]) by mxip28a.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 07 Feb 2006 16:11:50 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.02,95,1139202000"; d="scan'208"; a="766701957:sNHT38169882" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17385.3350.43537.313115@smtp.charter.net> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:11:50 -0500 From: "John Stoffel" To: Adam Levin Cc: SAGE mailing list Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> <17384.65312.797092.644336@smtp.charter.net> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.4.1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Adam" == Adam Levin writes: Adam> On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, John Stoffel wrote: >> Hey! A Swiss army knife with an LED light would be awesome. If it's >> small enough... size is key here. Adam> You mean this? Adam> http://www.wengerna.com/browse/product.jsp?prod_id=4&cat_id=1&cat_name=Knives&sub_cat_id=19 Close, but not quite what I want. I *really* like my "Spartan" knife. Just the right size. Just the right tools, except I wish it had a philips head. And LED. Sigh... it's *hard* to design the right tool. Because I want it small and light and handy to always carry. Heck, I'm still looking for the perfect watch as well, never gonna find that until I have someone make me one custom. That's the big thing for me, if the tool isn't handy enough to carry all the time, then it's useless when you need it and it's not on you. Does that make sense? But I don't want the bat belt look either... *grin* John From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 13:56:22 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17LuMAe023974 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:56:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17LuLFs023972 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:56:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntp1.ntp.isc.org (ntp1.ntp.isc.org [204.152.184.126]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17LuIAd023959 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:56:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntp1.ntp.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8F7639B5B; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 21:56:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from ntp1.ntp.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ntp1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12886-06; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 21:56:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntp1.ntp.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 21:56:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <17384.65312.797092.644336@smtp.charter.net> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> <17384.65312.797092.644336@smtp.charter.net> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 22:21:49 +0100 To: "John Stoffel" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: John Jasen , Dan Foster , Doug Hanks , sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on ntp1.isc.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 3:12 PM -0500 2006-02-07, John Stoffel wrote: > The next most useful took is an LED flash light key fob. Don't keep > my keys on it, but it's in my pocket all the time. Very very very > useful and handy to have around. Yeah, these are great. I got one a few years ago at a conference where one of the FreeS/WAN developers was giving a tutorial, and he was giving away freebies to the people who came back for the second half. I wasn't there for the talk, but he had a few spares left over. When my wife and I went to vacation a few years ago on the island of Ischia (in the Bay of Naples, near the island of Capri), we rented a villa on the south side of the island (about as far away as you could get from any of the tourist-related stuff). When we showed up at the villa, it was after dark, and the rental agent hadn't brought a flashlight. It was pitch damn bloody black out there, and the only light we had to go down several flights worth of stairs and a long concrete walkway on a steep hill was the little LED button-cell that I had with me. It may very well have literally saved our lives. It certainly made it a lot safer to actually get to the villa. Over the years, that one has died, and I've bought others to replace it. But I do try to keep at least two of them at all times, preferably one white(ish) and one red (so as to preserve night vision). > Hey! A Swiss army knife with an LED light would be awesome. If it's > small enough... size is key here. They already have them. Check the ThinkGeek site. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 14:50:36 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17MoaAe025707 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:50:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17MoZHS025705 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:50:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from chiba.halibut.com (IDENT:rduke@chiba.halibut.com [216.171.136.10]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id k17MoVAd025687 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:50:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 2899 invoked by uid 10174); 7 Feb 2006 22:50:26 -0000 Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:50:26 -0800 From: David Carmean To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: <20060207145026.K23063@halibut.com> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@sage.org References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> <17384.65312.797092.644336@smtp.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <17384.65312.797092.644336@smtp.charter.net>; from john@stoffel.org on Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 03:12:16PM -0500 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 03:12:16PM -0500, John Stoffel wrote: > The next most useful took is an LED flash light key fob. Don't keep > my keys on it, but it's in my pocket all the time. Very very very > useful and handy to have around. I've been wearing one on a shoestring around my neck for at least four years. It's my flashlight-finder flashlight. I.e. what I use to find a real flashlight when my power goes out at night. Also comes in handy when I find myself trying to look at jack labels in the bottom of a dark rack cabinet. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 14:52:09 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17Mq8Ae025803 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:52:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17Mq7V3025802 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:52:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.206]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17Mq4Ad025792 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:52:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id t10so1202238wxc for ; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 14:52:04 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GygJzFFvDOpwonaXKQFfAbtlnCC6x22AbdHgf7RAC9PJsIqomqaf8+2EmkimBC97S9h978Hf+KSqzVK89kuVvewdq6q1rcCdOWmwlVhJvxt2hERJvYzuAX1fEZMQ/Ffcg5O0ZJlhkElt3IhCIHKUaHIdgg8e+C/zYTFBOie4xxg= Received: by 10.70.32.14 with SMTP id f14mr8267697wxf; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 14:52:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.37.3 with HTTP; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:52:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <82a71f8a0602071452t7159ceedwd083b62b85cfbbc1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:52:03 -0800 From: Doug Hanks To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> <17384.65312.797092.644336@smtp.charter.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k17Mq6Ad025798 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 2/7/06, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 3:12 PM -0500 2006-02-07, John Stoffel wrote: > > > The next most useful took is an LED flash light key fob. Don't keep > > my keys on it, but it's in my pocket all the time. Very very very > > useful and handy to have around. Off-topic re: LEDs Does anyone use the household LED light bulbs? Do the offer significant energy savings? -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 15:07:44 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17N7hAe026718 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:07:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17N7h0D026717 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:07:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17N7cAd026707 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:07:40 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] LEDS - off topic ( was Tool Boxes) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:07:33 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] LEDS - off topic ( was Tool Boxes) Thread-Index: AcYsOahlQGNtKdfZSxaf1FWkdGTyPAAAOppg From: "Dave Hilton" To: "Doug Hanks" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k17N7gAd026713 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I use LED camping lights, bicycling lights, home emergency lights, and have several in my various toolboxen - they are all excellent. Very good consistent light and phenomenal battery life. Look for flashlights that are microprocessor controlled. For 6 years, I have had a 6 LED flashlight with 15 light levels, runs on three AA alkaline batteries. Never have changed the batteries. It's supposed to run __2400 hours__ on the lowest setting. Hilton From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 15:12:59 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17NCvAe027105 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:12:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17NCusO027102 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:12:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from wingfoot.org (caduceus.wingfoot.org [64.32.179.50]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17NCWAd027032 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:12:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wingfoot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE9B1F440D for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 18:12:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from wingfoot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (wingfoot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10042) with ESMTP id 79773-09 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 18:12:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (ool-44c47f78.dyn.optonline.net [68.196.127.120]) by wingfoot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7ADA1F4408 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 18:12:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43E92962.1070303@wingfoot.org> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 18:12:34 -0500 From: Glenn Sieb User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8b5) Gecko/20051006 Thunderbird/1.4.1 Mnenhy/0.6.0.104 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> <43E7D4A3.7020005@employees.org> In-Reply-To: <43E7D4A3.7020005@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at wingfoot.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Dan Rich said the following on 2/6/2006 5:58 PM: > Doug Hanks wrote: >> * Husky Tool bag. >> http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/jsearch/product.jsp?pn=167193 >> > I use one of those for my tools at home (and at the theatre), but prefer > a Rubbermaid 7187 bag for work. > (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000089H9Q/qid=1139266324/sr=1-15/ref=sr_1_15/103-3075287-0573463?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=228013) > I find I tend to lose small tools in bags like the Husky, where the > Rubbermaid has two zippered pockets inside with elastic that are great > for small parts. >> * SureFire LED flashlight. http://www.surefire.com >> > Ouch, nice but pricey! I have a couple of these floating around: > http://www.theledlight.com/palights.html > If you have a maglite, I can't say enough nice things about these LED > retrofit kits (the MiniStar2): > http://www.terralux.biz/products/index.htm Personally I love my Petzl headlamp: http://en.petzl.com/petzl/LampesProduits?Produit=256 Easy to use, sits on your forehead, keeping hands free.. :) Best, --G. -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 15:18:57 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17NIuAe027618 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:18:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17NIuv1027617 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:18:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.204]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17NIqAd027610 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:18:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id t10so1205360wxc for ; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 15:18:52 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=fW4hUGqz+OmSlJ17kW4fhFOf2w2Xfhze5LKhiPCdeVliWiLQdsJiizOd1w54p3I6Hm6+8cTC/3eGbDIC4w4s4KTTJrzImhjPMBzMlzhtPqne7PSnD5mdx5GUUj/TVCAwPlmmsTOTTv+NSPH6Xdme5U+EUdsmrlga9kEYeW1fgiA= Received: by 10.70.16.15 with SMTP id 15mr8203937wxp; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 15:18:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.37.3 with HTTP; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:18:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <82a71f8a0602071518s8e15e3bud8911f823e41f8ea@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:18:52 -0800 From: Doug Hanks To: Dave Hilton Subject: Re: [SAGE] LEDS - off topic ( was Tool Boxes) Cc: sage-members@sage.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k17NItAd027613 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I noticed a few household LED light bulbs on the market, but they are about $25 each. Does anyone use them? On 2/7/06, Dave Hilton wrote: > I use LED camping lights, bicycling lights, home emergency lights, and > have several in my various toolboxen - they are all excellent. Very > good consistent light and phenomenal battery life. Look for flashlights > that are microprocessor controlled. For 6 years, I have had a 6 LED > flashlight with 15 light levels, runs on three AA alkaline batteries. > Never have changed the batteries. It's supposed to run __2400 hours__ > on the lowest setting. > > Hilton > -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 15:26:14 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17NQEAe028096 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:26:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k17NQDIo028095 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:26:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntp1.ntp.isc.org (ntp1.ntp.isc.org [204.152.184.126]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k17NQBAd028087 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:26:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntp1.ntp.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4D0939B6A; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 23:26:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from ntp1.ntp.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ntp1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11103-10; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 23:26:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntp1.ntp.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 23:26:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a0602071452t7159ceedwd083b62b85cfbbc1@mail.gmail.com> References: <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <20060206173531.GA29436@catbert.org> <17384.65312.797092.644336@smtp.charter.net> <82a71f8a0602071452t7159ceedwd083b62b85cfbbc1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 00:24:39 +0100 To: Doug Hanks From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Off-topic re: LEDs (was: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest..) Cc: sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on ntp1.isc.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 2:52 PM -0800 2006-02-07, Doug Hanks wrote: > Does anyone use the household LED light bulbs? Do the offer significant > energy savings? I've tried one, but the light output was so low that I had to go back to compact Fluorescent, in order to get the amount of light output I wanted. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 20:46:50 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k184knAe006839 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 20:46:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k184knGc006838 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 20:46:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.207]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k184khAd006828 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 20:46:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 4so1812734nzn for ; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 20:46:43 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=pFeCAyxHN/e6Y7N8GbzvAOdR0a+oLAEsGbWdeRcdQAyNLOL9F6/roVd7d4uCdW4GB9mlWp7zqWSz0ESDuU/APLPAcvK94cNuAcsQgui2T/Yex98I2ATP02O9c0fY3bYGCWntbYsTDetUHKJH8tZwG+pKUtXM5+gNZwl1dw1GhY4= Received: by 10.37.12.45 with SMTP id p45mr5626942nzi; Tue, 07 Feb 2006 20:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.66.18 with HTTP; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 20:46:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <171423de0602072046k4948ddaw374ec624d2310f7c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 22:46:40 -0600 From: Scott Francis To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: <1139017947.10292.417.camel@collie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1139017947.10292.417.camel@collie> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k184kmAd006834 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 2/3/06, Nick Stoughton wrote: > On Fri, 2006-02-03 at 17:25, Dave Hilton wrote: > > I wish I knew how to dig through the Archives - we solved this about > > three years ago. > > > In 2003 ... > See > http://www.sage.org/mailarchive/sage-members-archive/2003/msg01975.html > for the thread root of that discussion! see also http://www.sage.org/mailarchive/sage-members-archive/2004/msg01407.html for the "datacenter tools" thread, which I archived for myself. Some crossover, also highly useful, as this thread has been. -- darkuncle@{gmail.com,darkuncle.net} || 0x5537F527 encrypted email to the latter address please http://darkuncle.net/pubkey.asc for public key From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 7 22:11:48 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k186BgAe008774 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 22:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k186BgA9008773 for sage-members-0utGoign; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 22:11:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.escape.org (adsl-63-197-76-200.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.197.76.200]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k186BYAe008761 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 22:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.escape.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by server.escape.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k186A6jS056025; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 22:10:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marco@server.escape.org) Received: (from marco@localhost) by server.escape.org (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id k186A6eS056024; Tue, 7 Feb 2006 22:10:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marco) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 22:10:06 -0800 From: Marco Nicosia To: Bob Sutterfield Cc: baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: [baylisa] RE: System Administrator Tool chest.. Message-ID: <20060207221006.W826@escape.org> References: <781c83e0602071411w4744c799xb0759ef5db3585db@mail.gmail.com> <43e98017.77ddcfec.5faf.5020@mx.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <43e98017.77ddcfec.5faf.5020@mx.gmail.com>; from bob@sutterfields.us on Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 09:22:19PM -0800 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I'd like to add to the chorus of endorsements for noise-cancelling headphones! A few years ago, I used to spend very, very long hours in a large datacenter. The constant noise was really getting to me. I bought a pair of Sony MDR-NC20s (discontinued, now MDR-NC50) and they made life in the datacenter MUCH nicer. I agree with below that over-the-ear not only does a better job of sealing off noise, but keeps your ears warmer as well. I find that my ears need to adjust to new headphones. Wearing them for long periods of time will hurt initially, but that goes away. -- Marco Bob Sutterfield (bob@sutterfields.us) wrote: > I bought a pair of relatively cheap ($35) Panasonic noise-canceling > headphones. They don't do much good in an open office but they're wonderful > in a data center with its steady noise. Don't even need to have them > plugged into a music source, just turn on the cancellation circuit (2xAAA > power lasts all night) and the fan noise drops into the background. Even > without music that's a great stress reducer. > > My Panasonics have a muff style but they still sit on the ear. There are > some newer earbud-style noise-canceling sets. And the fancy Bose (and > others) completely enclose the ear. What to choose? Anything that > completely encloses the ear will be more efficient and effective than a > design that fits on or in the ear, because the muffling will passively > eliminate a big part of the sound. And it keeps your ears warmer too :-) _______________________________________________________________________ Marco E. Nicosia | http://www.escape.org/~marco/ | marco@escape.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 8 12:40:57 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k18KeuAe011362 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:40:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k18KeuXH011361 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:40:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from clas.ufl.edu (minotaur.clas.ufl.edu [128.227.148.248]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k18KejAd011342 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:40:54 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-From: allan@cookie.org Received: from [128.227.148.121] (allanbc68.dhcp.clas.ufl.edu [128.227.148.121]) by clas.ufl.edu (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/clas1.23) with ESMTP id k18Ke9n06072; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 15:40:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43EA5729.7060501@cookie.org> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 15:40:09 -0500 From: Allan West User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Macintosh/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marco Nicosia CC: baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Re: [baylisa] RE: System Administrator Tool chest.. References: <781c83e0602071411w4744c799xb0759ef5db3585db@mail.gmail.com> <43e98017.77ddcfec.5faf.5020@mx.gmail.com> <20060207221006.W826@escape.org> In-Reply-To: <20060207221006.W826@escape.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Marco Nicosia wrote: > I'd like to add to the chorus of endorsements for noise-cancelling > headphones! A few years ago, I used to spend very, very long hours > in a large datacenter. The constant noise was really getting to me. > I bought a pair of Sony MDR-NC20s (discontinued, now MDR-NC50) and > they made life in the datacenter MUCH nicer. > > I agree with below that over-the-ear not only does a better job of > sealing off noise, but keeps your ears warmer as well. I find that > my ears need to adjust to new headphones. Wearing them for long > periods of time will hurt initially, but that goes away. I'm very curious, does your reference to hurting mean an ache inside the ear? I had some NCT noise-cancelling headphones, but they gave me a pressure headache when I wore them, so I stopped after about a week. I was concerned that while I couldn't perceive sound, the pressure might be causing my ears damage. I now wear custom fit earplugs inside my ears instead, and they are very comfortable while taking the edge off the background noise. Thanks, Allan > -- Marco > > Bob Sutterfield (bob@sutterfields.us) wrote: > >>I bought a pair of relatively cheap ($35) Panasonic noise-canceling >>headphones. They don't do much good in an open office but they're wonderful >>in a data center with its steady noise. Don't even need to have them >>plugged into a music source, just turn on the cancellation circuit (2xAAA >>power lasts all night) and the fan noise drops into the background. Even >>without music that's a great stress reducer. >> >>My Panasonics have a muff style but they still sit on the ear. There are >>some newer earbud-style noise-canceling sets. And the fancy Bose (and >>others) completely enclose the ear. What to choose? Anything that >>completely encloses the ear will be more efficient and effective than a >>design that fits on or in the ear, because the muffling will passively >>eliminate a big part of the sound. And it keeps your ears warmer too :-) > > _______________________________________________________________________ > Marco E. Nicosia | http://www.escape.org/~marco/ | marco@escape.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 8 12:46:15 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k18KkDAe011757 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:46:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k18KkDDn011756 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:46:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from morpheus.lapseofthought.com (adsl-66-124-80-202.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [66.124.80.202]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k18Kk1Ae011732 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:46:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from morpheus.lapseofthought.com (localhost.lapseofthought.com [127.0.0.1]) by morpheus.lapseofthought.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k18KjrQc020850 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:45:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drich@morpheus.lapseofthought.com) Received: (from drich@localhost) by morpheus.lapseofthought.com (8.13.5/8.12.10/Submit) id k18KjfB9020849; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:45:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drich) Message-Id: <200602082045.k18KjfB9020849@morpheus.lapseofthought.com> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 10:32:31 -0800 From: Dan Rich User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. References: X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.7 required=6.0 tests=BIZ_TLD, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100,RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100,RAZOR2_CHECK, SPF_HELO_PASS,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on morpheus.lapseofthought.com Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk <200602040522.k145MR9152776@mcs.anl.gov> <82a71f8a0602060902s3e22d18n11333a2b15965754@mail.gmail.com> <43E78395.7060405@wingfoot.org> <43E789E2.9070304@mail.saabnet.com> <43E790A4.1070307@deaddrop.org> <43E79F32.1000603@wingfoot.org> <43E7A74A.9020107@deaddrop.org> <82a71f8a0602061443j6e017dbfj2fc9b3817ddfcec1@mail.gmail.com> <43E7D4A3.7020005@employees.org> <17385.805.19425.755703@smtp.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <17385.805.19425.755703@smtp.charter.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.2.0 John Stoffel wrote: >>>>>> "Dan" == Dan Rich writes: >>>>>> > > Dan> If you have a maglite, I can't say enough nice things about these LED > Dan> retrofit kits (the MiniStar2): > > Dan> http://www.terralux.biz/products/index.htm > > Now this is a great product. Pricy as hell though, almost cheaper to > get some mini-mags and keep the spares around. But I'll be thinking > about these for Xmas/Birthdays for sure. I must have half a dozen mag > lights around... > I retrofitted the one I use at the theatre, and it's worth the price.=20 They're virtually indestructible, give you much more battery life, and most importantly, are much brighter than the original lamp. I need to pick up another one for the office.... -- Dan Rich | http://www.employees.org/~drich/ | "Step up to red alert!" "Are you sure, sir? | It means changing the bulb in the sign..." | - Red Dwarf (BBC) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 8 13:13:50 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k18LDnAe013165 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 13:13:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k18LDngv013164 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 13:13:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntp1.ntp.isc.org (ntp1.ntp.isc.org [204.152.184.126]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k18LDkAd013156 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 13:13:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntp1.ntp.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E8E039B78; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 21:13:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from ntp1.ntp.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ntp1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 78054-04; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 21:13:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntp1.ntp.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 21:13:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <43EA5729.7060501@cookie.org> References: <781c83e0602071411w4744c799xb0759ef5db3585db@mail.gmail.com> <43e98017.77ddcfec.5faf.5020@mx.gmail.com> <20060207221006.W826@escape.org> <43EA5729.7060501@cookie.org> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 22:13:26 +0100 To: Allan West From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] Re: [baylisa] RE: System Administrator Tool chest.. Cc: Marco Nicosia , baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@sage.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on ntp1.isc.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 3:40 PM -0500 2006-02-08, Allan West wrote: > I now wear custom fit earplugs inside my ears instead, and they are > very comfortable while taking the edge off the background noise. I've got some closed-cell soft foam earplugs that I always buy whenever I'm down at Walgreen's Pharmacy (they usually come on cards in packs of eight), and they have a Noise Reduction Rating of 33 decibels. That's the highest NRR I've seen on any hearing protection device, and I've been very glad to have them -- my wife and I both snore quite loudly. I've used them successfully on airplanes and trains, and they've worked quite well to block out the various noises. Shure E5c in-earphones also work quite well to block out external noises, while providing two high-power drivers for extremely accurate audio reproduction. These are the same model as used by many professional singers and stage performers -- my parents like Kenny Chesney and I was watching a live concert with them on TV, when I noticed he was wearing the same model himself. Of course, they go with custom fitted plugs and not the standard soft silicone that ships with the earphones, but I'm happy with what I've got. About the only better headphones on the market are the Ultimate Ear UE-10s, which have three drivers. IIRC, they can only be had with custom fitted earplugs (usually in a skin tone color), which is why I prefer the Shure E5c instead. I have worn over-the-head earmuffs when firing various weapons down on the shooting range, but I don't know what their respective NRR is. My experience so far is that I would take the soft foam in-earplugs (from Walgreens) over anything else. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 8 13:50:30 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k18LoTAe014628 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 13:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k18LoTnp014625 for sage-members-0utGoign; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 13:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k18LoRAd014609 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 13:50:27 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] Re: [baylisa] RE: System Administrator Tool chest.. Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 13:50:16 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Re: [baylisa] RE: System Administrator Tool chest.. Thread-Index: AcYs8YLLWhVTdhy/T6yHymP7Gc6R9gAB3wJg From: "Dave Hilton" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k18LoSAd014621 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk A word of caution about noise suppression products. Early on I used the ear protectors I had available at the time. I sustained hearing loss nonetheless. Ear protection designed for shooting does not work for the kind of noise in a data center: shooter's ear protectors are designed to block out short duration, intense pressure waves - not the sustained drone of hundreds or thousands of power supplies and fans. Hilton From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 9 00:22:21 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k198MLAe011659 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 00:22:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k198MKBY011658 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 00:22:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from lax-gate3.raytheon.com (lax-gate3.raytheon.com [199.46.200.232]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k198MHAd011645 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 00:22:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmoutw00.directory.ray.com (dmoutw00.directory.ray.com [147.25.146.122]) by lax-gate3.raytheon.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k198MG19025497 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 00:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmsmtpw00.directory.ray.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dmoutw00.directory.ray.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k198MGCl007072 sender obejas@exile.esn.us.ray.com for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:22:16 GMT Received: from exile.esn.us.ray.com (exile.esn.us.ray.com [147.17.205.19]) by dmsmtpw00.directory.ray.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k198MENc008351 sender obejas@exile.esn.us.ray.com for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:22:14 GMT Received: from exile.esn.us.ray.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by exile.esn.us.ray.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id k198Lf4c005537 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 00:21:41 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by exile.esn.us.ray.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id k198LfKs005535 for sage-members@sage.org; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 00:21:41 -0800 From: Mario Obejas To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Southern California Linux Expo (SCALE), Feb 11-12 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 00:21:41 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200602090021.41265.obejas@exile.esn.us.ray.com> Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I am surprised that no one from USENIX has mentioned Southern California Linux Expo (SCALE), which will be held Feb 11-12 in Los Angeles. The web site for the conference is http://www.socallinuxexpo.com If you plug in the promotion code SCLRT, you'll get in at a steep discount to the already low $65 price for this two day event. Last year, 900 people attended and about 1200 people are projected to attend this year. My surprise at no mention from USENIX about SCALE stems from the fact that USENIX is a media sponsor for SCALE. USENIX will also have a booth in the exhibitor hall, specifically Booth #44. http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/exhibitions/usenix.php The League of Professional System Administrators (LOPSA - http://www.lopsa.org ) will also have a booth at SCALE, specifically Booth #8. I willl be in the booth full time as will Michael Crusoe. http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/exhibitions/lopsa.php Please feel free to bring a friend by Booth #8 and chat. I am a USENIX member since 1997 as well as a LOPSA member and am happy to see cooperative efforts such as the recently announced joint ethics committee. Please note that there is also a Free workshop on the Open Document Format scheduled for Friday the 10th before the conference. Peter Quinn, the former Chief Information Officer for the state of Massachussets will provide the keynote address at the workshop. Contact me via unix_fan at yahoo.com if you have further questions Mario Obejas From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 9 08:05:22 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k19G5LAe021371 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k19G5LtX021370 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from uproxy.gmail.com (uproxy.gmail.com [66.249.92.194]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k19G5GAd021357 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:05:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by uproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id h2so36811ugf for ; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 08:05:14 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QljsZ8spSKleUpxVONBbmCSZxxSRQKkYqwhjGBT0GZEDkyi+/5tOQWPHwYiae4Pn+sQ+oLEoig3d+llmZlxmToTedM7e6EguVo0D4hiIfYW7s4jmqjs/PXCOgDd8fASDR6oeeMtOq+QCBZnjOFp0A4GqQGj6JK2UJQC783PvaZM= Received: by 10.48.49.7 with SMTP id w7mr2446797nfw; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 08:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.12.15 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:05:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <14cd29d50602090805q14211bb9m727b6b8acf68ed9f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 16:05:14 +0000 From: Donal Cunningham To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060207130657.H48561@skink.reptiles.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k19G5KAd021366 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 2/7/06, John Costello wrote: > On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Cat Okita wrote: > > [0] ... and it's -really- easy to get badly dehydrated in the datacenter > > Ear plugs. It isn't so bad in the small server rooms (10x10), but after > half an hour in a large DC my ears are ringing. The kind that has a pair with a connecting string is best, according to an ex-colleague who worked as a rigger. That way you can take one out to answer the phone/talk to someone, and it won't fall on the ground. Oh, and for reference, Leatherman Juice XE6 (purple). Shorter than regular Leathermen, and every time I drop it in to be serviced, they give me a new one. Don't know why... D. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 9 09:16:19 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k19HGIAe023482 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 09:16:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k19HGHvK023481 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 09:16:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from chat.adphila.org (mail.adphila.org [64.9.9.72]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k19HGGAd023473 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 09:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw1.adphila.org (mail.adphila.org [172.19.2.123]) by chat.adphila.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7646327ABE for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 12:16:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from AOC-MTA by gw1.adphila.org with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 12:16:07 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.5 Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 12:15:57 -0500 From: "John Boris" To: , Subject: [SAGE] Setting up Remote printing in Linux Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Checker-Version: GEE Whiz 2.0 b1808 X-Spam-Score: 0.00/5.00 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Pardon the cross posting; I have two Linux Servers running Fedora Core 3 and using CUPS. (Damasus and Jerome). Damasus uses a printer on a third Server (SCO Open Server 5.0.6) JC. Printer name laserOFS. I can successfully print from Damasus to laserOFS on JC. Jerome sits on the 192.168 network and is connected to Damasus through a second NIC. Damasus has one NIC on the 192.168 network and one on the 172.31 network. JC sits on the 172.31 network. I can ssh from Jerome to Damasus. I created a remote printer on Jerome that points to laserOFS on Damasus. using iptraf on Damasus I can see the packet arrive on port 515 and see it reset. This sounds or looks like a permissions problem. iptables is off on both machines and they are both on the same switch. I have entered jerome's name in /.rhosts /root/.rhosts /etc/hosts.lpd I also did an: accept laserOFS on Damasus and see the Accept line in the /etc/cups/printers.conf. Am I missing some other permissions file? TIA John J. Boris, Sr. JEN-A-SyS Administrator Archdiocese of Philadelphia 222 North 17th Street Philadelphia, Pa. 19103 Tel: 215-965-1714 Fax: 215-587-3525 "Remember! That light at the end of the tunnel Just might be the headlight of an oncoming train!" From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 9 13:04:46 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k19L4kAe000879 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 13:04:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k19L4kUl000876 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 13:04:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from spirit.com (gateway.spirit.com [12.164.197.226]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k19L4hAd000865 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 13:04:44 -0800 (PST) To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Web services ;login: proposals Cc: rik@spirit.com Message-Id: <20060209210726.550603601B8@bear.spirit.com> Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 14:07:26 -0700 (MST) From: rik@spirit.com (Rik Farrow) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The June 2006 issue of ;login: will have a focus on Web services, and I am looking for proposals for articles about them. These could be Web services that you support or provide to your own organization, outsourced Web services that you use (see Tom Limoncelli's Feb06 article, Delegating to the Web, http://www.usenix.org/publications/login/2006-02/index.html). Web services including supporting technologies, such as XML, SOAP, and AJAX. Send proposals to login@usenix.org And please read "Writing for ;login:" if you are are not familiar with the normal fare found there (or what goes in a proposal): http://www.usenix.org/publications/login/writing.html TIA, Rik Farrow Editor of ;login: From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 9 15:41:44 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k19NfhAe005891 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 15:41:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k19Nfhjo005890 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 15:41:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from clas.ufl.edu (minotaur.clas.ufl.edu [128.227.148.248]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k19NfSAd005876 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 15:41:29 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-From: allan@cookie.org Received: from [128.227.148.121] (allanbc68.dhcp.clas.ufl.edu [128.227.148.121]) by clas.ufl.edu (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/clas1.23) with ESMTP id k19NfQn02572; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 18:41:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43EBD325.7080008@cookie.org> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:41:25 -0500 From: Allan West User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Macintosh/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hilton CC: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Re: [baylisa] RE: System Administrator Tool chest.. References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Dave Hilton wrote: > A word of caution about noise suppression products. > > Early on I used the ear protectors I had available at the time. I > sustained hearing loss nonetheless. Ear protection designed for > shooting does not work for the kind of noise in a data center: shooter's > ear protectors are designed to block out short duration, intense > pressure waves - not the sustained drone of hundreds or thousands of > power supplies and fans. > > Hilton I wonder if these new construction-industry headphones will do a better job in data centers: http://www.elvex.com/DeTune.htm They were covered in the 1/30/06 ENR (Engineering News Record). I'll see if the office wants to buy me a set to test. Then again, maybe I'll buy them myself, since the impact reduction could make them good for the indoor shooting range, as well. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 9 15:50:27 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k19NoQAe006511 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 15:50:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k19NoQOY006510 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 15:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithril.entelos.com (mithril.entelos.com [12.22.57.197]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k19NoPAd006502 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 15:50:25 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SAGE] Re: [baylisa] RE: System Administrator Tool chest.. Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 15:50:19 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Re: [baylisa] RE: System Administrator Tool chest.. Thread-Index: AcYt0liEWmSxlCQvSGegi3Lj0SWcigAAP8hQ From: "Dave Hilton" To: "Allan West" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k19NoPAd006506 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk " I wonder if these new construction-industry headphones will do a better job in data centers:" The important consideration is that the hearing protectors be designed for sustained and repeated sound pressure waves. Hilton From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 9 18:37:45 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1A2biAe010076 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 18:37:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1A2binl010075 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 18:37:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.196]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1A2bfAd010067 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 18:37:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id t12so236398wxc for ; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:37:40 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=byRvG8GnCdXMkGy5fE8p4DWVqWtPrcELgaYjRwQOVjhMmkE838uCxye+Nyq/+WTXWBOkaZR0NtdEYkWzBYtYzETeBRyXYznISoM7ejrpOANDRySmOcjsWmufN+f/cGnXaAOMDC9rDxg5ikrfGKo0WZ5s96mIC1iv8qRmF3EKCVM= Received: by 10.70.10.2 with SMTP id 2mr375134wxj; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:37:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.12.8 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 18:37:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <82a71f8a0602091837s5c0d276bs3727814ae739ea92@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 18:37:39 -0800 From: Doug Hanks To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Job hunting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k1A2bhAd010071 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Where do you go when you're looking for a new full-time or contract position? I've noticed that websites like monster.com, craigslist.org and careerbuilder.com are dominated by IT recruiters or IT resource firms that want to charge $300 and pay you $50 an hour. The signal to noise ratio is so bad that I can't find sincere companies looking for talent. I've tried going to large companies and looking at their "Careers" section, but they're pretty vacant. I've also noticed a lot of recruiters will have a lot of jobs for say "Fortune 100 company A," but when you goto "Fortune 100 company A's" website, nothing is listed in the "Career" section. I'm not sure what other angle to take. I'm interested to see what's out there in terms of the basic "Senior UNIX Administrator" for someone with about 8 years experience. -- - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 9 18:42:01 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1A2g1Ae010219 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 18:42:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1A2g1fQ010217 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 18:42:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from slick.sigje.org (rdns.222.240.218.216.fre.communitycolo.net [216.218.240.222]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1A2fvAe010201 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 18:41:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from sigje (helo=localhost) by slick.sigje.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1F7OEB-0000FK-UP for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:41:43 -0800 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 18:41:43 -0800 (PST) From: Jennifer Davis To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Job hunting In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a0602091837s5c0d276bs3727814ae739ea92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <82a71f8a0602091837s5c0d276bs3727814ae739ea92@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > I've tried going to large companies and looking at their "Careers" > section, but they're pretty vacant. I've also noticed a lot of > recruiters will have a lot of jobs for say "Fortune 100 company A," > but when you goto "Fortune 100 company A's" website, nothing is listed > in the "Career" section. I'm not sure what other angle to take. Not all companies include information about their openings so they don't get flooded. When you reach a certain size, you depend on recruiters to get you the people looking for jobs. If you are looking for a job, networking with friends in the field is generally a good step.. and then friends of friends. LinkedIn is decent. hotjobs from Yahoo is pretty good as well. We (Decru/NetApp) use hotjobs, and dice. Jennifer From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 9 19:25:54 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1A3PqAe011464 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 19:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1A3PqCs011463 for sage-members-0utGoign; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 19:25:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from eclectic.kluge.net (eclectic.kluge.net [65.214.43.13]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1A3PoAe011454 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 19:25:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by eclectic.kluge.net (Postfix, from userid 501) id AF925AF129; Thu, 9 Feb 2006 22:25:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 22:25:49 -0500 From: Theo Van Dinter To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Job hunting Message-ID: <20060210032549.GS12823@kluge.net> References: <82a71f8a0602091837s5c0d276bs3727814ae739ea92@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a0602091837s5c0d276bs3727814ae739ea92@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-GPG-Keyserver: http://pgp.mit.edu/ X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xE93C82BB X-GPG-Fingerprint: 347F 2F79 9CB4 444C BD54 F270 BD32 EBA3 E93C 82BB X-GPG-URL: http://www.kluge.net/~felicity/pgp.html Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 06:37:39PM -0800, Doug Hanks wrote: > Where do you go when you're looking for a new full-time or contract > position? I've generally found that talking to friends and former co-workers yields the best results. I've been trying to keep track of my network through LinkedIn ever since I joined up for the LOPSA group a couple of months ago. Also, mentioning that you're looking when responding to messages on job-relevant lists sometimes helps (unless that would otherwise tip off your current employer). ;) -- Randomly Generated Tagline: "I hate going to the dentist. Everytime I go my tongue gets depressed." - Home Movies, "Therapy" From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 10 02:34:11 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AAYBAe028750 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 02:34:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1AAYA2t028749 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 02:34:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk (smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.213.7]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AAY6Ad028739 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 02:34:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([82.43.200.240]) by smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:35:08 +0000 Message-ID: <43EC6C1B.1030204@totkat.org> Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:34:03 +0000 From: Kate Harris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE list Subject: Re: [SAGE] Not good enough for Google (final, I think, update) References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Feb 2006 10:35:08.0959 (UTC) FILETIME=[AA24EAF0:01C62E2D] Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Andrew Maddox wrote: > Well, I had my phone screening last week... ... As I'm in the middle of the process myself at the moment, I thought I'd add my tuppenceworth to this old thread. > Actually, it was a pleasant enough conversation about things > technical... So far, it has been a pleasant (and even enjoyable!) experience. The initial phone screening didn't go nuts in a technical way, it seemed to be just a "are you even vaguely what you claim to be on your CV" kind of call and to check in which job I was interested. The first proper phone interview was very soon after that, arranged in a manner that was convenient to me etc. The guy I talked to was really nice and understood how to probe depth of knowledge without being confrontational or patronising in any way. OK, there was a bit of a wait (of 9 days) to find out if I was going to be going any further after that, but where the delays are in that process was explained to me in my third phone call with Google last night. I actually had fun in last night's interview (call me a weirdo if you like :o) ). There were a few medium-length questions and two longer scenarios which were interesting and fun to work through. From the explanation I got about the next steps in that call, I know that this time I'll most likely not hear anything until the end of next week at the earliest. > Anyway, the process was much better than it was in the past, so horror > stories shoudn't be needed about *that*. They were prompt in > follow-ups, clear about what the next step would be... So, apart from a bit of a wait which wasn't mentioned up front (and, to be honest, there are loads of companies that do that), this has been all good. No horror story here. > quick to let me know that I'd flunked, professional and polite. Now I just have to wait. K -- Kate Harris http://www.totkat.org/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 10 08:10:55 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AGAtAe006324 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:10:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1AGAtSe006323 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:10:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxsf17.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf17.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.217]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AGAqAd006316 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:10:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxip01a.cluster1.charter.net (mxip01a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.131]) by mxsf17.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k1AGAk5S003248 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:10:46 -0500 Received: from 66-189-53-50.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com (HELO jfsnew) ([66.189.53.50]) by mxip01a.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 10 Feb 2006 11:10:40 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.02,103,1139202000"; d="scan'208"; a="1824440347:sNHT562802806" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17388.47871.450940.459755@smtp.charter.net> Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:10:39 -0500 From: "John Stoffel" To: Dan Rich Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System Administrator Tool chest.. In-Reply-To: <200602082045.k18KjfB9020849@morpheus.lapseofthought.com> References: <200602082045.k18KjfB9020849@morpheus.lapseofthought.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.4.1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Dan" == Dan Rich writes: Dan> I retrofitted the one I use at the theatre, and it's worth the Dan> price. They're virtually indestructible, give you much more Dan> battery life, and most importantly, are much brighter than the Dan> original lamp. I need to pick up another one for the office.... Now that's an endorsement for the LED upgrade for a MiniMag. I'll be certainly getting one at some point then! John From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 10 11:03:37 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AJ3bAe011489 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1AJ3baP011488 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from permanently.misplaced.net (root@permanently.misplaced.net [63.231.235.20]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AJ3ZAd011479 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:03:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from permanently.misplaced.net (btoneill@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by permanently.misplaced.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AJ3XZK028956; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:03:33 -0600 (CST) Received: (from btoneill@localhost) by permanently.misplaced.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1AJ3WjZ028955; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:03:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:03:32 -0600 From: "Brian T. O'Neill" To: Doug Hughes Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] iSCSI mirroring over WAN Message-ID: <20060210190332.GB2842@misplaced.net> Mail-Followup-To: "Brian T. O'Neill" , Doug Hughes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <20060203173128.GN16834@misplaced.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quick question about the sync/async stuff with VVR. Are you able to do sync and async on the same volume? Say have a box on the same LAN doing sync with the server and doing async to a remote site? So you have an update to date copy on site for server/device failure, but a near-realtime copy offsite for DR recovery? Brian Quoting Doug Hughes (doug@eng.auburn.edu) from : > On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Brian T. O'Neill wrote: > > > We have a need to replicate a filesystem in real/near-real time over a > > WAN for disaster recovery purposes. One of the ideas that came up is > > using software based mirroring with one of the plexs being an iSCSI > > connection over a WAN. Has anyone had any experience doing anything like > > this? If so, did you use Volume Manager? How much did it effect > > performance? > > > > be very careful. If your db does synchronous writes, the latency on the > WAN may kill you. This is why proper asynchronous replication products > for disaster recovery (shareplex, Veritas Volume Replicator, EMC SDRF/A) > are so ungodly expensive. > > If it's only 5 msec difference (that's not much of a WAN, more like a > MAN), and your DB load isn't bad, you may be ok. > > We use VVR to replicate from phx to rochester in near realtime on our v880s > (oracle, vvr, local SAN, sata arrays) using asynchronous replication. > It's pretty close to real time. Synchronous would be unworkable. > > Doug -- btoneill@misplaced.net **************************************************************************** UNIX is simple and coherent, but it takes a genius (or at any rate a programmer) to understand and appreciate the simplicity." - Dennis Ritchie **************************************************************************** From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 10 11:44:45 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AJihAe012932 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:44:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1AJihIr012931 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:44:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from Eng.Auburn.EDU (dns.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.10.13]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AJifAd012924 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:44:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from netdir.eng.auburn.edu (netdir.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.12.3]) by Eng.Auburn.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AJiXOZ008350; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:44:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by netdir.eng.auburn.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.6.4) with ESMTP id k1AJiVs14867; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:44:31 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: netdir.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:44:31 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: "Brian T. O'Neill" cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] iSCSI mirroring over WAN In-Reply-To: <20060210190332.GB2842@misplaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 Feb 2006, Brian T. O'Neill wrote: > Quick question about the sync/async stuff with VVR. Are you able to do > sync and async on the same volume? Say have a box on the same LAN doing > sync with the server and doing async to a remote site? So you have an > update to date copy on site for server/device failure, but a > near-realtime copy offsite for DR recovery? > I don't believe so. However, there is some ambiguousness in the docs that lead me to believe it may be possible. You can set the synchronous/asynchronous and srl protection options on an rlink basis. However, I think the primary is going to be constant in all cases, so those options would apply to all volumes within an rlink meaning you'd have to pick one or the other. Then again, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Even in asynchronous mode, as long as you don't enter DCM (overflow of the SRL), all of the replication is recoverable. You can still fsck the filesystem on the secondary even if it's a little bit behind.. even if there is stuff on the SRL. The local one would pretty much have a 0% srl all the time. Another thing you could do, is use VVR for the remote replication/disaster recovery and VCS and SAN mirroring for local. Also, we take advantage of snapshots and checkpoints for providing rollback protection in case there's some other issue with propagating corruption or whatever. Doug From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 10 11:56:20 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AJuKAe013479 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1AJuKQs013478 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from permanently.misplaced.net (root@permanently.misplaced.net [63.231.235.20]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AJuHAd013471 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:56:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from permanently.misplaced.net (btoneill@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by permanently.misplaced.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AJuGZK029614; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:56:16 -0600 (CST) Received: (from btoneill@localhost) by permanently.misplaced.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1AJuG3R029613; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:56:16 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:56:16 -0600 From: "Brian T. O'Neill" To: Doug Hughes Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] iSCSI mirroring over WAN Message-ID: <20060210195616.GD2842@misplaced.net> Mail-Followup-To: "Brian T. O'Neill" , Doug Hughes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <20060210190332.GB2842@misplaced.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Problem we're not sure of is, if primary building blows up, and the logs files at the COB site are 2 minutes behind, our software may not be able to handle it as it's an order routing system and would have missed 2 minutes worth of orders... Still up in the air, nothing like designing a data replication system across the LAN/WAN when the developers don't even know how the application reacts to the files that are being replicated... *sigh* Brian Quoting Doug Hughes (doug@eng.auburn.edu) from : > On Fri, 10 Feb 2006, Brian T. O'Neill wrote: > > > Quick question about the sync/async stuff with VVR. Are you able to do > > sync and async on the same volume? Say have a box on the same LAN doing > > sync with the server and doing async to a remote site? So you have an > > update to date copy on site for server/device failure, but a > > near-realtime copy offsite for DR recovery? > > > > > I don't believe so. > However, there is some ambiguousness in the docs that lead me > to believe it may be possible. You can set the synchronous/asynchronous > and srl protection options on an rlink basis. However, I think the > primary is going to be constant in all cases, so those options would > apply to all volumes within an rlink meaning you'd have to pick one > or the other. > > Then again, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Even in asynchronous > mode, as long as you don't enter DCM (overflow of the SRL), all of > the replication is recoverable. You can still fsck the filesystem > on the secondary even if it's a little bit behind.. even if there > is stuff on the SRL. The local one would pretty much have a 0% srl > all the time. > > Another thing you could do, is use VVR for the remote replication/disaster > recovery and VCS and SAN mirroring for local. > > Also, we take advantage of snapshots and checkpoints for providing > rollback protection in case there's some other issue with propagating > corruption or whatever. > > Doug -- btoneill@misplaced.net **************************************************************************** UNIX is simple and coherent, but it takes a genius (or at any rate a programmer) to understand and appreciate the simplicity." - Dennis Ritchie **************************************************************************** From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 10 12:01:00 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AK0xAe013915 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:00:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1AK0xSF013913 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:00:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from Eng.Auburn.EDU (dns.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.10.13]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AK0uAd013902 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:00:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from netdir.eng.auburn.edu (netdir.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.12.3]) by Eng.Auburn.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AK0tOZ008983; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:00:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by netdir.eng.auburn.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.6.4) with ESMTP id k1AK0rN14873; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:00:53 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: netdir.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:00:53 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: "Brian T. O'Neill" cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] iSCSI mirroring over WAN In-Reply-To: <20060210195616.GD2842@misplaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 Feb 2006, Brian T. O'Neill wrote: > Problem we're not sure of is, if primary building blows up, and the logs > files at the COB site are 2 minutes behind, our software may not be able > to handle it as it's an order routing system and would have missed 2 > minutes worth of orders... Still up in the air, nothing like designing a > data replication system across the LAN/WAN when the developers don't > even know how the application reacts to the files that are being > replicated... > having enough bandwidth can pretty much guarantee fractions of a second behind, but it does nothing for the software issue. :| Guess you could put together a business case for how much it costs the company to lose a few records vs extended downtime. (depending on volume transaction, etc) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 10 12:07:59 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AK7wAe014451 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:07:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1AK7wEt014450 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:07:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from permanently.misplaced.net (root@permanently.misplaced.net [63.231.235.20]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AK7uAd014442 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:07:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from permanently.misplaced.net (btoneill@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by permanently.misplaced.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1AK7sZK029815; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:07:54 -0600 (CST) Received: (from btoneill@localhost) by permanently.misplaced.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1AK7sdX029814; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:07:54 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:07:54 -0600 From: "Brian T. O'Neill" To: Doug Hughes Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] iSCSI mirroring over WAN Message-ID: <20060210200754.GE2842@misplaced.net> Mail-Followup-To: "Brian T. O'Neill" , Doug Hughes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <20060210195616.GD2842@misplaced.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Doug Hughes (doug@eng.auburn.edu) from : > having enough bandwidth can pretty much guarantee fractions of a second > behind, but it does nothing for the software issue. :| > > Guess you could put together a business case for how much it costs > the company to lose a few records vs extended downtime. (depending > on volume transaction, etc) Yup, thats the problem, and what we'll have to do. But they also want copies locally that wouldn't have the lag issue... Which if VVR can do both sync/async it solves the problem with a case the business can probably live with. Otherwise I'll have to go to another solution that can do sync on the lan but async over the wan, maybe a chaining of netapps, sync from netapp1 to netapp2 and async from netapp2 to netapp3 over the WAN. All depends on what VVR can do... We do have more options now as this is going to be an NFS server instead of local fs's on a SAN as someone in the initial specs misunderstood the term SAN. Their use of "SAN" meant that every box on the SAN could access the same files on the same filesystem at the same time. Yeah, I know you can do that with something like ADIC's StorNext FS, but not something I even want to start to touch with a 10' pole... Brian -- btoneill@misplaced.net **************************************************************************** UNIX is simple and coherent, but it takes a genius (or at any rate a programmer) to understand and appreciate the simplicity." - Dennis Ritchie **************************************************************************** From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 10 15:35:44 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1ANZiAe020152 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:35:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1ANZhU3020151 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:35:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.22]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1ANZfAd020141 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:35:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.100] (zn.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.30]) by m1.imap-partners.net (MOS 3.7.3a-GA) with ESMTP id AES68929 (AUTH strata@imap-partners.net) for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:35:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43ED234B.9040005@virtual.net> Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:35:39 -0800 From: "Strata R. Chalup" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Job hunting References: <82a71f8a0602091837s5c0d276bs3727814ae739ea92@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <82a71f8a0602091837s5c0d276bs3727814ae739ea92@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quite a few jobs have come in on the SAGE Jobs Board recently, and there is also a separate Usenix Jobs Board to peruse as well. Lots of senior stuff, little recruiter activity (possibly none). Worth a peek at least! http://www.sage.org/jobs/ http://www.usenix.org/jobs/ SRC Doug Hanks wrote: > Where do you go when you're looking for a new full-time or contract > position? I've noticed that websites like monster.com, craigslist.org > and careerbuilder.com are dominated by IT recruiters or IT resource > firms that want to charge $300 and pay you $50 an hour. The signal to > noise ratio is so bad that I can't find sincere companies looking for > talent. > > I've tried going to large companies and looking at their "Careers" > section, but they're pretty vacant. I've also noticed a lot of > recruiters will have a lot of jobs for say "Fortune 100 company A," > but when you goto "Fortune 100 company A's" website, nothing is listed > in the "Career" section. I'm not sure what other angle to take. > > I'm interested to see what's out there in terms of the basic "Senior > UNIX Administrator" for someone with about 8 years experience. > > -- > - Doug Hanks = dhanks(at)gmail(dot)com > > -- ======================================================================== Strata R Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net Virtual.Net Inc http://www.virtual.net/ ** Strategic IT for the Growing Enterprise ** ========================================================================= From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 10 16:14:45 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1B0EjAe021465 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:14:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1B0EjBF021464 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:14:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntp1.ntp.isc.org (ntp1.ntp.isc.org [204.152.184.126]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1B0EgAd021453 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:14:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntp1.ntp.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC4FB39B49 for ; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 00:14:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from ntp1.ntp.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ntp1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16675-01 for ; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 00:14:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.1.210] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntp1.ntp.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP for ; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 00:14:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <43ED234B.9040005@virtual.net> References: <82a71f8a0602091837s5c0d276bs3727814ae739ea92@mail.gmail.com> <43ED234B.9040005@virtual.net> Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 01:14:24 +0100 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [SAGE] Job hunting Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on ntp1.isc.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 3:35 PM -0800 2006-02-10, Strata R. Chalup wrote: > Quite a few jobs have come in on the SAGE Jobs Board recently, and there > is also a separate Usenix Jobs Board to peruse as well. Lots of senior > stuff, little recruiter activity (possibly none). Worth a peek at least! > > http://www.sage.org/jobs/ > http://www.usenix.org/jobs/ In case anyone is curious, here's a list of the locations for each job, and the count of jobs in that location: 1 Toronto, Canada 1 Glendale, CA 1 Redwood City, CA 1 Menlo Park, CA 1 Fremont, CA 1 Mountain View, CA 1 Glendale & Redwood City, CA 2 San Jose, CA 1 New Haven, CT 1 Atlanta, GA 1 Des Moines area, IA 2 Cambridge, MA 2 New York, NY 1 Portland, OR 1 Philadelphia, PA 2 Dallas, TX 1 Redmond, WA Note that eight jobs are in California, and thirteen elsewhere. No other state (or country, in the case of Canada) has more than two jobs listed. And yes, most of these are SAGE Level III and IV jobs: 1 I (Novice) 3 II (Junior) 10 III (Intermediate/Advanced) 7 IV (Senior) I took a dump of the page in question and if you know grep and sed it's not hard to parse out basic information, so I'll be glad to post some more analyses, if anyone is interested. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See . From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 10 16:34:19 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1B0YIAe022170 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:34:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1B0YIQv022169 for sage-members-0utGoign; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:34:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.anselmi.us (anselmi.us [67.41.199.133]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1B0YBAe022160 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:34:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.anselmi.us ([10.211.33.199] ident=dave) by falcon.anselmi.us with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F7iiD-0001dU-OM for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:34:05 -0700 Message-ID: <43ED30FC.70900@anselmi.us> Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:34:04 -0700 From: "David L. Anselmi" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20051007 Debian/1.7.12-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Mailing List Subject: [SAGE] MapPoint data (and how not to do help desk). Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This is one of those "couldn't get help from support" stories. Microsoft has a site that will show local gas prices: http://autos.msn.com/everyday/gasstations.aspx?zip=&src=Netx For 80113 the map is more than 10 miles south of the actual zip code (it used to work a while back though). If you zoom out far enough you'll see the dot for the one station in 80113. Most the rest are in 80124 (yes, their addresses are listed with zip). So I found the form to contact MS support and was told, "we're sorry for the inconvenience but you have to report this to MapPoint support". And the link they gave says "put in your MapPoint product ID or pay $35 to ask for help". Like saying "the problem you reported is in our Oracle backend, please report it to Oracle". Like I'm the one who decided to use MapPoint. I wish they'd read Tom's book. He covered helpdesk. So I'm curious whether the MapPoint map of zip code 80113 shows Colorado highway 470 running east-west through the center of it, or perhaps centers south of that highway? Anyone have a version that's right and one that's wrong? (Google shows the correct area, north east of Belleview and Broadway, FWIW.) Thanks for listening, I feel better now. Should have done this with my "Amazon is incapable of shipping or cancelling an order" story. ;-) Dave From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 13 10:01:34 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1DI1XAe014409 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 10:01:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1DI1Xvt014408 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 10:01:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from g2.mental.com (root@entrance.mental.com [192.31.14.10]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1DI1RAe014355 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 10:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mental.com (root@twen.mi [172.16.0.5]) by g2.mental.com (8.13.0/8.13.0/Lobo-060119) with ESMTP id k1DI1CpN030604; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 19:01:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from mental.com (lobo@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mental.com (8.13.0/8.13.0/Lobo-051217) with ESMTP id k1DI1CHw012211; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 19:01:12 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: "Epps, Alan S" Cc: discuss@lopsa.org, sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: [lopsa-discuss] Reserve memory in Linux RHEL3 & 4 In-reply-to: "Epps, Alan S"'s message of Mon, 13 Feb 2006 09:00:00 CST <0106C1B52C5A3D4A862044E60FCCF2A502449BC2@acn001grbmsx01.enterprisenet.org> Organization: mental images GmbH, Berlin, Germany Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 19:01:12 +0100 Message-ID: <12210.1139853672@mental.com> From: Alexander Lobodzinski Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk () My question is this: is there any way to configure RHEL* to reserve () enough memory for the operating system such that a SysAdmin can always () get in via the console and kill off the offending process(es)? This is not RHEL specific and the other way 'round, but maybe it would help to limit address space, data, and/or stack size for the application in question? Probably the quickest way is using ulimit in a shell wrapper. Ciao, Lobo From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 13 11:17:37 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1DJHaAe016518 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:17:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1DJHaDs016517 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:17:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from vnu001glbmxh02.enterprisenet.org (hercules.acnielsen.com [12.107.122.15]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1DJHXAd016508 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from vnu001schmsx02.enterprisenet.org ([10.1.1.95]) by vnu001glbmxh02.enterprisenet.org with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:17:28 -0600 Received: from acn001grbmsx01.enterprisenet.org ([10.15.170.28]) by vnu001schmsx02.enterprisenet.org with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:17:27 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [SAGE] Reserve memory in Linux RHEL3 & 4 Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:17:26 -0600 Message-ID: <0106C1B52C5A3D4A862044E60FCCF2A502449BCB@acn001grbmsx01.enterprisenet.org> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Reserve memory in Linux RHEL3 & 4 Thread-Index: AcYw0h/O8ShlGnICSbu5hgVP+w/q0A== From: "Epps, Alan S" To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Feb 2006 19:17:27.0907 (UTC) FILETIME=[20DA2330:01C630D2] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k1DJHZAd016513 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk All, Good morning. I was wondering if one of you folks could point me in the right direction to solve an ongoing problem we are having at work. In a nutshell we have a number of dual and quad processor Linux systems running RHEL3 & 4, all with between 4gig and 24gig of physical RAM. With some regularity these systems will spin up the memory usage so fast that we run out of physical RAM and swap faster than the monitoring system can alert a SysAdmin to get in and kill something (ramp-up often less than one minute in duration). The systems eventually use up all available memory and freeze up solid, to the point that they need to have the power cycled to bring them back. My question is this: is there any way to configure RHEL* to reserve enough memory for the operating system such that a SysAdmin can always get in via the console and kill off the offending process(es)? I spend more time with Solaris than with Linux, and Solaris has spoiled me in a very good way regarding this issue, but it is driving me nuts in the Linux environment. In doing some research I haven't seen anything that speaks directly to this behavior and its prevention, so I am asking the brightest bunch of folks I know for help. Any and all feedback and direction will be greatly appreciated. Alan -------------------------------------------------- Alan S Epps 920-405-7936 ITIM Unix SysAdmin alan.epps@acnielsen.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 13 11:24:36 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1DJOaAe016940 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:24:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1DJOaDg016937 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:24:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu (BACHE.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.129.23]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1DJOXAd016931 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:24:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.9.204.128] (dsl093-061-215.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.93.61.215]) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4903A9A; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 14:24:32 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <0106C1B52C5A3D4A862044E60FCCF2A502449BCB@acn001grbmsx01.enterprisenet.org> References: <0106C1B52C5A3D4A862044E60FCCF2A502449BCB@acn001grbmsx01.enterprisenet.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <48ED7F19-63EA-42A2-8523-D76BC73B7113@ece.cmu.edu> Cc: SAGE mailing list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" Subject: [SAGE] Re: [lopsa-discuss] Reserve memory in Linux RHEL3 & 4 Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 14:24:29 -0500 To: "Epps, Alan S" , discuss@lopsa.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Feb 13, 2006, at 2:17 , Epps, Alan S wrote: > My question is this: is there any way to configure RHEL* to reserve > enough memory for the operating system such that a SysAdmin can always > get in via the console and kill off the offending process(es)? I spend > more time with Solaris than with Linux, and Solaris has spoiled me > in a > very good way regarding this issue, but it is driving me nuts in the > Linux environment. In doing some research I haven't seen anything that I believe you're looking for pam_limits. -- brandon s. allbery [linux,solaris,freebsd,perl] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 13 13:01:45 2006 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1DL1hAe019472 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:01:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k1DL1g8s019471 for sage-members-0utGoign; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:01:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from vnu001glbmxh02.enterprisenet.org (hercules.acnielsen.com [12.107.122.15]) by usenix.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1DL1XAd019458 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:01:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from vnu001schmsx01.enterprisenet.org ([10.1.1.94]) by vnu001glbmxh02.enterprisenet.org with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:01:28 -0600 Received: from acn001grbmsx01.enterprisenet.org ([10.15.170.28]) by vnu001schmsx01.enterprisenet.org with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:01:28 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [SAGE] RE: [lopsa-discuss] Reserve memory in Linux RHEL3 & 4 Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:01:27 -0600 Message-ID: <0106C1B52C5A3D4A862044E60FCCF2A502449BD1@acn001grbmsx01.enterprisenet.org> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lopsa-discuss] Reserve memory in Linux RHEL3 & 4 Thread-Index: AcYw0zOsSx2rNtboQ6e8QFy3C0gTAwADPt8w From: "Epps, Alan S" To: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" , Cc: "SAGE mailing list" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Feb 2006 21:01:28.0319 (UTC) FILETIME=[A86D70F0:01C630E0] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id k1DL1fAd019466 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Brandon, Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate it. I have a question though - as I read the documentation for this module it looks like it