From sage-members-owner Thu Jan 27 23:19:05 2000 Received: by usenix.usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA19747 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:19:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.hal-pc.org (hal-pc.org [204.52.135.1]) by usenix.usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19738 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from nomad (206.180.132.11.dial-ip.hal-pc.org [206.180.132.11]) by mail.hal-pc.org (8.9.1/8.9.0) with SMTP id BAA24246 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 01:18:56 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <004f01c2c6a6$7eec95a0$0c01a8c0@coats.org> From: "Jack Coats" To: References: <38908FBD.21C1DD07@gs.com> <20000127164155.E6914@com21.com> Subject: Re: Solaris 2.6 vs. 2.7 (was: Alternative ... Jumpstart.) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 02:18:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.ORG Precedence: bulk With all these alternatives, heck, you could use kickstart from Red Hat Linux if you really wanted to :) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 3 08:55:35 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h03GtZu11870 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 08:55:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from yfandes.cs.wisc.edu (yfandes.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.162.24]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h03GtXf11866 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 08:55:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from yfandes.cs.wisc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by yfandes.cs.wisc.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA06715 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:55:33 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200301031655.KAA06715@yfandes.cs.wisc.edu> To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] January MAD-SAGE: Crypto for IT Staff Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 10:55:33 -0600 From: David Parter X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk For those of you in Wisconsin, or know people in Wisconsin (or looking for inspiration for your local SAGE group): ------- Forwarded Message From: David Parter Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 10:43:30 -0600 To: mad-sage@mad-sage.org Subject: [MAD-SAGE] Thursday, January 9: Crypto for IT Staff MAD-SAGE invites you to join your peers for "networking" and discussion: Date: Thursday, January 9, 2003 Time: 6:00 PIZZA and "networking" 6:30 Technical Program: Crypto for IT Staff Speaker: Jim Leinweber, Security officer, WI State Lab of Hygiene volunteer, Badger Incident Response Team Confused by digital certificates? Puzzled about Public Keys? Still nervous about the day DES died? Want to know what your web browser is really doing with that HTTPS site? Join us for a tour of 8 basic cryptographic building blocks including symmetric secret key ciphers such as 3DES and AES, public key algorithms such as RSA, and digital signatures. See how these are combined in commonly encountered applications and protocols including digital certificates, TLS/SSL, SSH, IPSEC, PGP, S/MIME, and Tripwire. Leave with practical advice about crypto do's and don'ts, including appropriate key lengths, how far back your servers can safely go with older protocols, and the warning signs of bad "snake oil" crypto. Location: Epic Systems, 5301 Tokay Blvd For more information on MAD-SAGE, please visit http://www.mad-sage.org _______________________________________________ mad-sage mailing list mad-sage@mad-sage.org http://www.mad-sage.org/mailman/listinfo/mad-sage ------- End of Forwarded Message From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 7 06:25:49 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h07EPnP25562 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 06:25:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.bilancio.org (mail.bilancio.org [208.253.168.110]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id h07EPlf25558 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 06:25:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 20598 invoked from network); 7 Jan 2003 14:25:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO wbilancio) (192.168.42.71) by mailhost.bilancio.org with SMTP; 7 Jan 2003 14:25:41 -0000 Message-ID: <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> From: "William Bilancio" To: Subject: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 09:25:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk When I was a LISA in Philly. I attended a BOF of single admin shops. A lot of people talked about a certain software package for call management and helpdesk support. I can't remember the name of it and of course I now need to set up a system to do this. Here are my requirements: Must work with MySQL Run under Linux Really those are all the requirements I need at this point. So what are people using at there sites. If you could let me know why you picked the particular software and would you recommend it? Thanks, William Bilancio From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 7 06:39:30 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h07EdUA25842 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 06:39:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from bryan-andreggs-computer.local ([152.16.85.235]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h07EdSf25837 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 06:39:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bandregg@localhost) by bryan-andreggs-computer.local (8.12.2/8.12.2) id h07EdK8E000529; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 09:39:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 09:39:20 -0500 From: "Bryan C. Andregg" To: William Bilancio Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-ID: <20030107143920.GA468@loopback.net> References: <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xWXEtizwpuPcl6rI" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --xWXEtizwpuPcl6rI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 09:25:29AM -0500, William Bilancio mailed: > When I was a LISA in Philly. I attended a BOF of single admin shops. A l= ot > of people talked about a certain software package for call management and > helpdesk support. I can't remember the name of it and of course I now ne= ed > to set up a system to do this. I'd guess that you are talking about RT. http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/ --=20 Bryan C. Andregg http://www.loopback.net gpg 1024D/24BF71A9 D862 18C1 0B31 E09E 1180 D8DC 8FDA 4497 24BF 71A9 --xWXEtizwpuPcl6rI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQE+GuaYj9pElyS/cakRAi/AAJ4r2C2zAz4z6C2Iti8IWltR5XH1fgCfXDBF Px/pb4VZY2OVjc1WL7mqvoo= =D5mL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xWXEtizwpuPcl6rI-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 7 06:56:17 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h07EuHd26140 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 06:56:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from bastet.rfc822.net (bastet.rfc822.net [64.81.113.233]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h07EuFf26136 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 06:56:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by bastet.rfc822.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 70BB49F03A; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 08:56:24 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 08:56:24 -0600 From: Pete Ehlke To: William Bilancio Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-ID: <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> References: <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 09:25:29AM -0500, William Bilancio wrote: > When I was a LISA in Philly. I attended a BOF of single admin shops. A lot > of people talked about a certain software package for call management and > helpdesk support. I can't remember the name of it and of course I now need > to set up a system to do this. > > Here are my requirements: > Must work with MySQL > Run under Linux > > Really those are all the requirements I need at this point. > > So what are people using at there sites. If you could let me know why you > picked the particular software and would you recommend it? > I wasn't in Philly (rassn frassn job market frassn rassn), but I'm guessing folks were talking about RT: http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/ My one gripe with RT is the initial setup, which suffers a lot from the common open source affliction of "install these 42 modules from CPAN, a version of mod_perl that hasn't been offically released yet, two incompatible libc implementations, and the kitchen sink (but only the cast iron one, a ceramic sink won't work)". I understand that Jesse's been working on that issue lately, and once it's actually set up and running, RT is a dream. -Pete From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 7 08:15:29 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h07GFTo26812 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 08:15:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from oasis.rad.upenn.edu (OASIS.RAD.UPENN.EDU [165.123.246.19]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h07GFSf26808 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 08:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from rad.upenn.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by oasis.rad.upenn.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23337; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:15:23 -0500 Received: from rad.upenn.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by oasis.rad.upenn.edu with ESMTP (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA23337; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:15:23 -0500 Message-ID: <3E1AFA48.9040807@rad.upenn.edu> Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 11:03:20 -0500 From: Eric Mercer Organization: UPHS, Radiology User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020918 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: William Bilancio CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software References: <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Wreq: http://www.math.duke.edu/~yu/wreq/ William Bilancio wrote: > When I was a LISA in Philly. I attended a BOF of single admin shops. A lot > of people talked about a certain software package for call management and > helpdesk support. I can't remember the name of it and of course I now need > to set up a system to do this. > > Here are my requirements: > Must work with MySQL > Run under Linux > > Really those are all the requirements I need at this point. > > So what are people using at there sites. If you could let me know why you > picked the particular software and would you recommend it? > > Thanks, > > William Bilancio > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 7 15:44:26 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h07NiPS03299 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:44:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from SW00A091 (SW00A091.osl-gmbh.de [193.158.59.132] (may be forged)) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h07NiNf03294 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:44:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3EE1DFAF.dip.t-dialin.net (p3ee1dfaf.dip.t-dialin.net [62.225.223.175]) by SW00A091 (8.11.2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id h07NiEj08014 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 00:44:14 +0100 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 00:31:42 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Gerler To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] german menbers of sage Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi! I will try to reach the german menbers of sage to initiate some organisation. So the rest of this mail is in german. Hallo zusammen! Ich weiss nicht, wieviele Mitglieder die Usenix/Sage in Deutschland zaehlt. Aber selbst wenn dies nur 20 Leute lesen waere es ein Anfang. Die Mitgliedschaft in der leider so weit entfernten Usenix zeigt ja bereits ein gewisses Interesse an der Verbesserung des Berufszweigs Systemadministrator. Ich fuer meinen Teil wuerde es begruessen, wenn wir hier in Deutschland etwas wie das Mentoring-Programm auf die Beine stellen koennten. Ferner schweben mir Sammelbestellungen bei den Booklets etc. vor. Eine eigene Mailingliste und vielleicht sogar Zusammenarbeit mit der letzten Jahres gegruendeten sage@guug wuerde ich auch gut finden. Ich selbst bin seit 2 Jahren Mitglied in der Usenix/Sage und habe letztes Jahr als Einstieg meine Ausbildung zum FI-Anwendungsentwicklung abgeschlossen. Waehrend dieser Zeit war ich aber bereits als Systemadministrator taetig und bereite mich derzeit auf die Ausbildereignungspruefung vor. Somit moechte ich mich hier in der Naehe von Bremen nicht auf meinem momentanen Wissensstand ausruhen. So. Und nun hoffe ich, dass ich mit dieser eMail etwas in Bewegung setze... Andreas Gerler http://www.net27.de/~baron SAGE#71270 ICQ #168310436 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 9 15:06:24 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h09N6OU03958 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:06:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from crusoe.degler.net (crusoe.degler.net [66.114.64.229]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h09N69f03953 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:06:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by crusoe.degler.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h09N5wU26657 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:05:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:05:58 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-ID: <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Pete Ehlke (pde@rfc822.net): > On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 09:25:29AM -0500, William Bilancio wrote: ... > I wasn't in Philly (rassn frassn job market frassn rassn), but I'm > guessing folks were talking about RT: http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/ > > My one gripe with RT is the initial setup, which suffers a lot from the > common open source affliction of "install these 42 modules from CPAN, a > version of mod_perl that hasn't been offically released yet, two > incompatible libc implementations, and the kitchen sink (but only the > cast iron one, a ceramic sink won't work)". I understand that Jesse's > been working on that issue lately, and once it's actually set up and > running, RT is a dream. Isn't this the job of /usr/ports/ (aka /usr/pkgsrc/)? I know that /usr/pkgsrc (NetBSD's name for ports) should work on Solaris and maybe even MacOS X but haven't used them yet. The lack of that is what kills me on Linux and Solaris ... I'm spoiled by: cd /usr/ports/mail/mutt ;make install clean and having mutt get installed. Or postgres. Or OpenLDAP. Or Cyrus IMAP. Whatever the package, it's built from sources and in package management. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 9 15:44:28 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h09NiSZ05568 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:44:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.22]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h09NiQf05564 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:44:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.200.36] (nat64.mirapoint.com [63.107.133.64]) by m1.imap-partners.net (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id ABB73105; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:43:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 15:43:08 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Chuck Yerkes cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-ID: <47970000.1042155788@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> References: <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Isn't this the job of /usr/ports/ (aka /usr/pkgsrc/)? ... > The lack of that is what kills me on Linux and Solaris ... On Linux, it's "apt" (Debian) or "rpm" (RedHat). I've been moving away from Solaris (as far back as SunOS 3.2!) and learning Debian on x86 hardware lately. I'm close to getting it to mirror the entire boot disk; the serial console works, with an appropriate BIOS for the early stages; and there are resources for securing it (to some degree). Debian and "apt-get", particularly "apt-get dist-upgrade", are worth a serious look. Even /usr/ports doesn't do that. The lack of apt-get is what kills me on Solaris. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 9 15:46:39 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h09NkdB05792 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:46:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from zaxxon.telerama.com (root@zaxxon.telerama.com [205.201.1.215]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h09NkZf05788 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:46:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from zaxxon.telerama.com (ncrawler@zaxxon.telerama.com [205.201.1.215]) by zaxxon.telerama.com (8.12.5/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h09NkZ5d004555 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:46:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from chris@telerama.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:46:35 -0500 (EST) From: chris@telerama.com X-X-Sender: ncrawler@zaxxon.telerama.com To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software In-Reply-To: <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> Message-ID: <20030109182901.G27481-100000@zaxxon.telerama.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > Quoting Pete Ehlke (pde@rfc822.net): > > On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 09:25:29AM -0500, William Bilancio wrote: > ... > > My one gripe with RT is the initial setup, which suffers a lot from the > > common open source affliction of "install these 42 modules from CPAN, a > > version of mod_perl that hasn't been offically released yet, two > > incompatible libc implementations, and the kitchen sink (but only the > > cast iron one, a ceramic sink won't work)". I understand that Jesse's > > been working on that issue lately, and once it's actually set up and > > running, RT is a dream. > > Isn't this the job of /usr/ports/ (aka /usr/pkgsrc/)? I don't think that a FreeBSD port exists yet for RT, but there is a Debian package: http://packages.debian.org/unstable/misc/request-tracker.html I've only setup RT under FreeBSD, but I figured I'd pass this along since the original post mentioned Linux as a requirement. As a side note, I noticed that the Debian package allows you to use either Postgres or MySQL. Recently, I was considering switching from MySQL to Postgres for our RT database. I was persuaded otherwise though after reading the rt-users mailing list. Basically, Postgres requires a bit more tweaking by the database administrator than MySQL does if you want the same kind of performance. According to the author, you also have to use Postgres 7.2 -- RT isn't compatible with Postgres 7.3 yet. Goes right back to William's original gripe... :) You can find more information about this if you search the rt-users archive for 'postgres'. If you do want to use Postgres, I would recommend checking out some of the clues in the rt-users list. Cheers, -Chris -- Chris Tracy Telerama Public Access Internet Senior Network Engineer http://www.telerama.com > > I know that /usr/pkgsrc (NetBSD's name for ports) should > work on Solaris and maybe even MacOS X but haven't used > them yet. > > The lack of that is what kills me on Linux and Solaris ... > I'm spoiled by: > cd /usr/ports/mail/mutt ;make install clean > > and having mutt get installed. Or postgres. Or OpenLDAP. Or Cyrus IMAP. > Whatever the package, it's built from sources and in package management. > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 9 15:47:56 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h09Nlt005994 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:47:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from swordfish.cs.caltech.edu (swordfish.cs.caltech.edu [131.215.44.124]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h09Nlsf05988 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:47:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu (dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu [131.215.45.43]) by swordfish.cs.caltech.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19D39DF26F; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:47:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cmalek@localhost) by dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA16403; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:47:52 -0800 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:47:51 -0800 From: Christopher Malek To: Jim Hickstein Cc: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-ID: <20030109154751.A16399@dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Christopher Malek , Jim Hickstein , Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> <47970000.1042155788@jxh.mirapoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <47970000.1042155788@jxh.mirapoint.com>; from jxh@jxh.com on Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 03:43:08PM -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk CY: Chuck Yerkes JH: Jim Hickstein CY> Isn't this the job of /usr/ports/ (aka /usr/pkgsrc/)? CY> The lack of that is what kills me on Linux and Solaris ... JH> On Linux, it's "apt" (Debian) or "rpm" (RedHat). And if you use apt-rpm, you can get apt under RedHat (and other RPM based systems). -- cmalek@caltech.edu Nosce Teipsum Office: (626) 395-2593 Fax: (626) 792-4257 Mail Stop: 014-81 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 9 15:57:57 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h09Nvv406324 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from netmeister.org (www.netmeister.org [64.81.200.34]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h09Nvtf06320 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:57:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by netmeister.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 55CEE2DC624; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:59:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:59:24 -0500 From: Jan Schaumann To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-ID: <20030109235924.GB24749@netmeister.org> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Chuck Yerkes wrote: > Isn't this the job of /usr/ports/ (aka /usr/pkgsrc/)? > > I know that /usr/pkgsrc (NetBSD's name for ports) should > work on Solaris and maybe even MacOS X but haven't used > them yet. Nitpick: NetBSD also has ``ports'', only that word signifies the portation of NetBSD to a different platform. See http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/. NetBSD's pkgsrc works quite beautifully on Solaris, MacOS X, Darwin and Linux (in addition to NetBSD, of course) and has recently been ported to OpenBSD, FreeBSD and Irix. See http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/software/packages.html > The lack of that is what kills me on Linux and Solaris ... I suggest you give pkgsrc a try. I'm loving it. -Jan -- I seem to be having this tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 9 16:14:27 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0A0ERD06770 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:14:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.22]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0A0EQf06766 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:14:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.200.36] (nat64.mirapoint.com [63.107.133.64]) by m1.imap-partners.net (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id ABB73307; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:13:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 16:13:01 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Ted Cabeen cc: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-ID: <50190000.1042157581@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <20030109234937.89157424@gray.impulse.net> References: <47970000.1042155788@jxh.mirapoint.com> <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> <20030109234937.89157424@gray.impulse.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > FreeBSD has portupgrade... > apt-rpm for RedHat Hmm! I didn't know about those. But I doubt they address what apt-get dist-upgrade can do: I took a neglected Debian 2.2 "stable" machine (hadn't been touched for over a year), did "apt-get update" to prepare to upgrade it to 3.0 (by then the "stable" release), and did the dist-upgrade via ssh, with the machine running as a production web server. (I announced an outage window, but in fact there were only a few seconds when things were off the air.) Another ssh session used the new parent daemon, and I closed the first session. I didn't reboot it until the following day, just for good measure. Debian does a good job of dealing with this live-ugprade stuff, and doesn't assume you are sitting at the machine. I am becoming a big fan of Debian. But I should get back to work: I'm upgrading RT on this very host from 1.0.6 (!!) to 2.0.15. This is _much_ harder than upgrading the operating system, alas! From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 9 16:22:02 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0A0M2J07072 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:22:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from belial.infersys.com (infersys.com [66.51.209.144]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0A0Lxf07068 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from azazel.infersys.com (azazel.infersys.com [172.16.1.42]) by belial.infersys.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A5B51000AE; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:21:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by azazel.infersys.com (Postfix, from userid 10001) id BD95F10F7E4; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:21:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15902.4638.930418.600083@azazel.infersys.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:21:50 -0800 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software In-Reply-To: <50190000.1042157581@jxh.mirapoint.com> References: <47970000.1042155788@jxh.mirapoint.com> <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> <20030109234937.89157424@gray.impulse.net> <50190000.1042157581@jxh.mirapoint.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 10) "Military Intelligence" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smith X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk JXH> Debian does a good job of dealing with this live-ugprade stuff, and JXH> doesn't assume you are sitting at the machine. I am becoming a big JXH> fan of Debian. Does Debian have anything like Kickstart (or Jumpstart)? That's long been the killer app for my choice of OS. Upgrading without downtime is good, but automated rebuilding is more critical (especially in academia, where downtime isn't nearly as expensive). -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 9 16:25:09 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0A0P9M07283 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:25:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from swordfish.cs.caltech.edu (swordfish.cs.caltech.edu [131.215.44.124]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0A0P7f07271 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:25:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu (dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu [131.215.45.43]) by swordfish.cs.caltech.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D46DDF262; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:25:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cmalek@localhost) by dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA16610; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:25:05 -0800 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:25:05 -0800 From: Christopher Malek To: Jim Hickstein Cc: Ted Cabeen , Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-ID: <20030109162505.B16410@dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Christopher Malek , Jim Hickstein , Ted Cabeen , Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <47970000.1042155788@jxh.mirapoint.com> <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> <20030109234937.89157424@gray.impulse.net> <50190000.1042157581@jxh.mirapoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <50190000.1042157581@jxh.mirapoint.com>; from jxh@jxh.com on Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 04:13:01PM -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk JH: Jim Hickstein JH> But I doubt they address what apt-get dist-upgrade can do: I took a JH> neglected Debian 2.2 "stable" machine (hadn't been touched for over a JH> year), did "apt-get update" to prepare to upgrade it to 3.0 (by then the JH> "stable" release), and did the dist-upgrade via ssh, with the machine JH> running as a production web server. FWIW, I've had people report to me that they've successfully dist-upgrade'd from RH6.x boxes to RH7.x boxes via apt-rpm. Not sure what the downtime was (you would probably have to modify a few config files after all ... at least sendmail). That personally gives me the screaming heebie jeebies. :) -- cmalek@caltech.edu Nosce Teipsum Office: (626) 395-2593 Fax: (626) 792-4257 Mail Stop: 014-81 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 9 16:30:27 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0A0UQq07585 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:30:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail02.dmotorworks.com (mail02.dmotorworks.com [64.57.182.184]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id h0A0UPf07581 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:30:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5889 invoked by uid 1511); 10 Jan 2003 00:30:24 -0000 Received: from jfrank@digitalmotorworks.com by mail02.dmotorworks.com with qmail-scanner-0.96 (. Clean. Processed in 0.05433 secs); 10 Jan 2003 00:30:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO optimus.dmotorworks.com) ([139.126.210.29]) (envelope-sender ) by mail.dmotorworks.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 10 Jan 2003 00:30:23 -0000 Subject: [SAGE] IDE hard drive performance From: Jeremy Frank To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-5UL2Dz8XRy39jqag7i1f" Organization: Message-Id: <1042158623.14211.9240.camel@optimus.dmotorworks.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.1 Date: 09 Jan 2003 18:30:23 -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --=-5UL2Dz8XRy39jqag7i1f Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have had an ongoing disagreement with one of my vendors about the proper way to arrange a pair of IDE hard drives in a server for optimal performance. As a result, I wound up running a series of I/O tests against identical hardware/software to get some solid data, and thought everyone would like to see the results... (see attachment for the numbers) - Notes: I used bonnie++ 1.03 running on Red Hat Linux Advanced Server 2.1. In all cases, the hard drives were mirrored with software RAID1. - Results: You can obtain noticeably better performance (~40%) by having each drive on a separate IDE channel instead of having them share the same channel. Also, having a hard drive share an IDE channel with a CD-ROM drive that is not in use seems to have little, if any, effect on performance. - Caveats: Since I went with the default hard drive settings, it is very likely that I am missing out on some performance benefits. Additionally, the CD-ROM drive may in fact be imposing a limit on performance, but the hard drives are performing below that limit with their default configuration, so it doesn't show up in the tests. - Discussion: Has anyone else performed tests of this nature on current-gen equipment? If so, how did you test and what were your results? Also, has anyone played around with IDE hard drive settings in such a way that resulted in both good performance *and* stability? -- Jeremy Frank --=-5UL2Dz8XRy39jqag7i1f Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=IDE_Performance_Analysis.txt Content-Type: text/plain; name=IDE_Performance_Analysis.txt; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IDE Hard Drive Performance Analysis =================================== Notes: ====== * Hardware: 2x 2.4GHz Xeon CPUs (Hyperthreading enabled) 1.5GB total RAM (2x 512MB, 2x 256MB) 2x 80GB 7200RPM IBM Deskstar Hard Drives * In all tests, the pair of hard drives were mirrored using software RAID1 * OS: Red Hat Advanced Server 2.1AS (kernel 2.4.9-e.3smp) * Software used: Bonnie++ 1.03 (http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/) * Command line used for all tests: # ./bonnie++ -d /data1/scratch -s 3000 -r 1500 -u test * All drives were left at their default settings: # hdparm /dev/hda /dev/hda: multcount = 16 (on) I/O support = 0 (default 16-bit) unmaskirq = 0 (off) using_dma = 1 (on) keepsettings = 0 (off) nowerr = 0 (off) readonly = 0 (off) readahead = 8 (on) geometry = 9730/255/63, sectors = 156312576, start = 0 Configuration A: IDE Channel 1 - Master: HD, Slave: HD IDE Channel 2 - Master: CDROM, Slave: None ============================================ # Try 1 Version 1.03 ------Sequential Output------ --Sequential Input- --Random- -Per Chr- --Block-- -Rewrite- -Per Chr- --Block-- --Seeks-- Machine Size K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP /sec %CP test1.dmotor 3000M 6618 27 9314 6 3699 1 20058 76 28822 7 179.9 0 ------Sequential Create------ --------Random Create-------- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- files /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP 16 2339 91 +++++ +++ +++++ +++ 2398 93 +++++ +++ 5394 85 test1.dmotorworks.com,3000M,6618,27,9314,6,3699,1,20058,76,28822,7,179.9,0,16,2339,91,+++++,+++,+++++,+++,2398,93,+++++,+++,5394,85 # Try 2 Version 1.03 ------Sequential Output------ --Sequential Input- --Random- -Per Chr- --Block-- -Rewrite- -Per Chr- --Block-- --Seeks-- Machine Size K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP /sec %CP test1.dmotor 3000M 6561 27 7444 4 3862 1 21012 76 28856 8 190.6 0 ------Sequential Create------ --------Random Create-------- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- files /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP 16 2330 93 +++++ +++ +++++ +++ 2328 93 +++++ +++ 5063 86 test1.dmotorworks.com,3000M,6561,27,7444,4,3862,1,21012,76,28856,8,190.6,0,16,2330,93,+++++,+++,+++++,+++,2328,93,+++++,+++,5063,86 Configuration B: IDE Channel 1 - Master: HD, Slave: None IDE Channel 2 - Master: HD, Slave: None ========================================= # Try 1 Version 1.03 ------Sequential Output------ --Sequential Input- --Random- -Per Chr- --Block-- -Rewrite- -Per Chr- --Block-- --Seeks-- Machine Size K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP /sec %CP test2.dmotorw 3000M 11086 47 12100 10 6538 3 21142 78 30025 9 229.8 0 ------Sequential Create------ --------Random Create-------- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- files /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP 16 2300 96 +++++ +++ +++++ +++ 2374 94 +++++ +++ 6446 99 test2.dmotorworks.com,3000M,11086,47,12100,10,6538,3,21142,78,30025,9,229.8,0,16,2300,96,+++++,+++,+++++,+++,2374,94,+++++,+++,6446,99 # Try 2 Version 1.03 ------Sequential Output------ --Sequential Input- --Random- -Per Chr- --Block-- -Rewrite- -Per Chr- --Block-- --Seeks-- Machine Size K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP /sec %CP test2.dmotorw 3000M 11126 48 14391 10 5925 3 21511 79 30100 9 332.9 1 ------Sequential Create------ --------Random Create-------- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- files /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP 16 2383 95 +++++ +++ +++++ +++ 2461 96 +++++ +++ 5464 90 test2.dmotorworks.com,3000M,11126,48,14391,10,5925,3,21511,79,30100,9,332.9,1,16,2383,95,+++++,+++,+++++,+++,2461,96,+++++,+++,5464,90 Configuration C: IDE Channel 1 - Master: HD, Slave: None IDE Channel 2 - Master: HD, Slave: CDROM ========================================== # Try 1 Version 1.03 ------Sequential Output------ --Sequential Input- --Random- -Per Chr- --Block-- -Rewrite- -Per Chr- --Block-- --Seeks-- Machine Size K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP /sec %CP test3.dmotorw 3000M 11217 47 11639 9 6606 3 22020 81 29939 9 348.4 1 ------Sequential Create------ --------Random Create-------- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- files /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP 16 2429 95 +++++ +++ +++++ +++ 2428 96 +++++ +++ 5654 92 test3.dmotorworks.com,3000M,11217,47,11639,9,6606,3,22020,81,29939,9,348.4,1,16,2429,95,+++++,+++,+++++,+++,2428,96,+++++,+++,5654,92 # Try 2 (Inserted and mounted a disc beforehand just to make sure that the OS knew that the CDROM was there) Version 1.03 ------Sequential Output------ --Sequential Input- --Random- -Per Chr- --Block-- -Rewrite- -Per Chr- --Block-- --Seeks-- Machine Size K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP /sec %CP test3.dmotorw 3000M 10924 55 11554 13 6603 3 22328 82 29922 8 336.0 1 ------Sequential Create------ --------Random Create-------- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- files /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP 16 2379 95 +++++ +++ +++++ +++ 2367 96 +++++ +++ 5275 91 test3.dmotorworks.com,3000M,10924,55,11554,13,6603,3,22328,82,29922,8,336.0,1,16,2379,95,+++++,+++,+++++,+++,2367,96,+++++,+++,5275,91 --=-5UL2Dz8XRy39jqag7i1f-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 9 16:39:18 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0A0dIk07876 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:39:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.22]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0A0dGf07872 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:39:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.200.36] (nat64.mirapoint.com [63.107.133.64]) by m1.imap-partners.net (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id ABB73434; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:39:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 16:39:14 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Josh Smith cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-ID: <58130000.1042159154@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <15902.4638.930418.600083@azazel.infersys.com> References: <47970000.1042155788@jxh.mirapoint.com> <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> <20030109234937.89157424@gray.impulse.net> <50190000.1042157581@jxh.mirapoint.com> <15902.4638.930418.600083@azazel.infersys.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Does Debian have anything like Kickstart (or Jumpstart)? That's long been > the killer app for my choice of OS. Upgrading without downtime is good, > but automated rebuilding is more critical (especially in academia, where > downtime isn't nearly as expensive). Hi, Josh! I'm not familiar with this, but I think it exists, and it's fairly highly developed. Jim Dennis gave a quick talk about this at the last BayLISA meeting (but I wasn't paying attention -- sorry, Jim.) You might want to start your research with "PXE". This seems to be the PC-type thing that can boot over the network while still under control of the ROM. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 9 16:48:48 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0A0mmj08135 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org (root@mail.reptiles.org [198.96.117.157]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0A0mlf08131 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:48:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org([198.96.117.157]) (1656 bytes) by mail.reptiles.org via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) id for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 19:48:42 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.115-Pre 2001-Aug-6 #2 built 2002-Nov-19) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 19:48:42 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Jim Hickstein cc: Josh Smith , Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software In-Reply-To: <58130000.1042159154@jxh.mirapoint.com> Message-ID: <20030109194741.F2914-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Jim Hickstein wrote: > I'm not familiar with this, but I think it exists, and it's fairly highly > developed. Jim Dennis gave a quick talk about this at the last BayLISA > meeting (but I wasn't paying attention -- sorry, Jim.) You might want to > start your research with "PXE". This seems to be the PC-type thing that > can boot over the network while still under control of the ROM. My recollection from the last time I touched PXE was that you could use it (all presuming that you have the right revision on the card et al) to boot off of a specified image - but that you still needed to hand off control to something like kickstart or jumpstart. Dunno about you - I'm not too eager to write either myself ;> cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 9 16:51:53 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0A0prR08355 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:51:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail0.lsil.com (mail0.lsil.com [147.145.40.20]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0A0ppf08350 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:51:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mhbs.lsil.com (mhbs.lsil.com [147.145.31.100]) by mail0.lsil.com (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id h0A0pLSB021005 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:51:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from dp25.lsil.com by mhbs.lsil.com with ESMTP for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:50:25 -0800 Received: from goldrush.lsil.Com (goldrush.lsil.COM [147.145.26.130]) by dp25.lsil.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04905 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:50:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rau@localhost) by goldrush.lsil.Com (8.12.5/8.12.5) id h0A0oOu1053563 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:50:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rau) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:50:24 -0800 From: Robert Au To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-Id: <20030110005024.GM7671@goldrush.lsil.Com> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <47970000.1042155788@jxh.mirapoint.com> <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> <20030109234937.89157424@gray.impulse.net> <50190000.1042157581@jxh.mirapoint.com> <15902.4638.930418.600083@azazel.infersys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15902.4638.930418.600083@azazel.infersys.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 04:21:50PM -0800, Josh Smith wrote: > JXH> Debian does a good job of dealing with this live-ugprade stuff, and > JXH> doesn't assume you are sitting at the machine. I am becoming a big > JXH> fan of Debian. > > Does Debian have anything like Kickstart (or Jumpstart)? That's long been > the killer app for my choice of OS. Upgrading without downtime is good, > but automated rebuilding is more critical (especially in academia, where > downtime isn't nearly as expensive). Here's a few (rough) notes I had for automatic Linux installation. System Installation Suite, unlike most of the others, is image-based, not package-based. FAI (Debian, Solaris) http://www.informatik.uni-koeln.de/fai/ Kickstart (RedHat) alice (SuSE) System Installation Suite (successor to IBM's LUI; works with most Linux distributions) http://sisuite.org/ NAIS (Debian, SuSE, maybe others) http://nais.sourceforge.net/ How to Install Red Hat Linux via PXE and Kickstart http://www.slac.stanford.edu/~alfw/PXE-Kickstart/ OSCAR (Open Source Cluster Application Resources) http://oscar.sourceforge.net/ Cluster Command and Control http://www.csm.ornl.gov/torc/C3/ -- Robert Au rau@lsil.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 9 16:52:00 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0A0px108408 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:51:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from crusoe.degler.net (crusoe.degler.net [66.114.64.229]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0A0puf08384 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:51:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by crusoe.degler.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h0A0puN27485 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 19:51:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 19:51:56 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-ID: <20030110005156.GA27447@snew.com> Reply-To: sage-members@usenix.org Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> <47970000.1042155788@jxh.mirapoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47970000.1042155788@jxh.mirapoint.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Jim Hickstein (jxh@jxh.com): > >Isn't this the job of /usr/ports/ (aka /usr/pkgsrc/)? > ... > >The lack of that is what kills me on Linux and Solaris ... > > On Linux, it's "apt" (Debian) or "rpm" (RedHat). > > I've been moving away from Solaris (as far back as SunOS 3.2!) and learning > Debian on x86 hardware lately. I'm close to getting it to mirror the > entire boot disk; the serial console works, with an appropriate BIOS for > the early stages; and there are resources for securing it (to some degree). > Debian and "apt-get", particularly "apt-get dist-upgrade", are worth a > serious look. Even /usr/ports doesn't do that. > > The lack of apt-get is what kills me on Solaris. AFAIK, rpm is generically package managment (I used it on Solaris, SunOS and others since it was opensource and portable). But it doesn't do what ports/ does which is: maintain a small profile with mostly a Makefile, which has pointers to the sources, and patches to make it work right for platform of choice. Building from source and having it in the packagemanagement system is the goal. Playing "find the rpm" gets tiring, esp when this works that that libc, but not the one I have, and you also need THIS package, etc. When I build mutt with slang, it will find and build slang for me (a dependancy) and then build mutt. Oh, and "fink" project for MacOS X is the debian stuff, AFAIK. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 9 18:09:15 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0A29Fk09400 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:09:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from swordfish.cs.caltech.edu (swordfish.cs.caltech.edu [131.215.44.124]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0A29Ef09396 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:09:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu (dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu [131.215.45.43]) by swordfish.cs.caltech.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2638DF262; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:09:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cmalek@localhost) by dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA17167; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:09:13 -0800 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:09:13 -0800 From: Christopher Malek To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-ID: <20030109180913.A17080@dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Christopher Malek , sage-members@usenix.org References: <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> <47970000.1042155788@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030110005156.GA27447@snew.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030110005156.GA27447@snew.com>; from chuck+sage@snew.com on Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 07:51:56PM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk CY: Chuck Yerkes CY> Building from source and having it in the packagemanagement system CY> is the goal. Playing "find the rpm" gets tiring, esp when this CY> works that that libc, but not the one I have, and you also need CY> THIS package, etc. CY> When I build mutt with slang, it will find and build slang for me CY> (a dependancy) and then build mutt. apt does this, too. If you do "apt-get install mutt", apt will figure out what mutt depends on, go out and download the mutt package and all the packages that mutt depends on, and install them all in the proper order. apt-rpm relieves you from having to play "find the RPM". I've only ever done this with precompiled binaries, but AFAIK, you're supposed to be able to get apt to download source packages and build everything on your system. -- cmalek@caltech.edu Nosce Teipsum Office: (626) 395-2593 Fax: (626) 792-4257 Mail Stop: 014-81 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 9 18:16:29 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0A2GTJ09673 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:16:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolthole.com (bolthole.com [192.220.72.215]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id h0A2GSf09669 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:16:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 78078 invoked by uid 18647); 10 Jan 2003 02:16:27 -0000 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:16:27 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-ID: <20030109181627.A76709@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> <47970000.1042155788@jxh.mirapoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <47970000.1042155788@jxh.mirapoint.com>; from jxh@jxh.com on Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 03:43:08PM -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 03:43:08PM -0800, Jim Hickstein wrote: > > The lack of apt-get is what kills me on Solaris. Thats what pkg-get is for. Then you have to decide which package repository to use. It originally started with sunfreeware.com. However, sunfreeware.com does not have package dependancies, which rather puts a damper on chaining automatic package installations. So, a new, multiperson cooperative effort (more along the lines of Debian!) has started up: http://www.blastwave.org/ 100 packages so far. You can do fun things like pkg-get install mod_php and have it chain along the dependancies, and install all 9 of the dependancy packages listed at http://www.blastwave.org/packages/mod_php one of which is apache itself. Hmm. actually, I think it is 10 dependancies, because php depends on openldap, which depends on berkeleydb4. Multi-level dependancies are not shown in the above url ;-) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 9 18:44:46 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0A2ikx09995 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:44:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.oceanwave.com (h080020cf363b.ne.client2.attbi.com [66.31.24.228]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0A2iif09991 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:44:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from arr@localhost) by mail.oceanwave.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.1) id h0A2iii17554; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 21:44:44 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15902.13211.842796.821542@smallberries.office.oceanwave.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 21:44:43 -0500 From: To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software In-Reply-To: <20030109182901.G27481-100000@zaxxon.telerama.com> References: <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> <20030109182901.G27481-100000@zaxxon.telerama.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under Emacs 21.2.1 X-message-flag: Pegasus mail client for windows: http://www.pmail.com/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5B F5 08 B3 6B 11 72 BD 19 29 1B 98 D2 94 77 D8 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk chris> I don't think that a FreeBSD port exists yet for RT /usr/ports/www/rt2 is currently RT 2.0.14 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 08:07:57 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0AG7vt03742 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:07:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.hamilton.edu (mail.hamilton.edu [150.209.8.98]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0AG7tf03736 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:07:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail.hamilton.edu by mail.hamilton.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.08 (built Dec 6 2002)) id <0H8I004019V1YK@mail.hamilton.edu> for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:02:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamilton.edu (chemistry-853-384.hamilton.edu [150.209.87.171]) by mail.hamilton.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.08 (built Dec 6 2002)) with ESMTPSA id <0H8I002HI9WUPX@mail.hamilton.edu> for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:02:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:07:51 -0500 From: Jenn Sturm Subject: [SAGE] to buy or not to buy service contracts To: sage-members@usenix.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I've always bought service contracts for expensive equipment, but we're in a strange situation here where it's just not clear if that's the right path to take. We were offered a 32-processor SGI Origin 2000 for $100K, with a $50K service contract. The machine is remarketed, which I'm reluctant to go with, but it will perfectly fit a hole in our line up of machines and enable us increase our resources on the cheap (we already have a cluster--the Origin 2000 will serve a different need). If we purchase the service contract, it's possible that we might not be able to get all the funds together for the machine (we need to buy a big A/C for it as well as renovate a room, so it's getting expensive for a "cheap" machine). If, on the other hand, we don't purchase the service contract, and instead leave part of that money lying around for repairs, should they be needed, we leave ourselves open to the possibility of having a big pile of junk we couldn't afford to fix were there to be a catastrophic failure. How does your shop run things? Do you buy the big service contracts? Or do you take the gamble and keep reserve funds around? -Jenn ___________ Jennifer Sturm System Administrator and Research Support Specialist Chemistry Department Hamilton College 198 College Hill Road Clinton, NY 13323 tel: 315-859-4745 fax: 315-859-4744 jsturm@hamilton.edu http://www.chem.hamilton.edu/ http://mars.chem.hamilton.edu/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 08:18:23 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0AGINi04026 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:18:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from westnet.com (westnet.com [206.24.6.2]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0AGILf04022 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:18:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from westnet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by westnet.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0AGIKOJ004139 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:18:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (levins@localhost) by westnet.com (8.12.6/8.12.1/Submit) with ESMTP id h0AGIKdl004135 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:18:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:18:19 -0500 (EST) From: Adam and Christine Levin X-X-Sender: levins@westnet To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] to buy or not to buy service contracts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, Jenn Sturm wrote: > How does your shop run things? Do you buy the big service contracts? Or > do you take the gamble and keep reserve funds around? We're an Internet company (ecommerce) using Sun CPU for everything (we have other company's tape backups and one third-party NAS box). We have service contracts for everything. Money may not be there when we need to repair something, so we specify maintenance as part of the initial bid. Also, having a 1 hour response time for parts from Sun is truly a wonderful thing. :) -Adam Adam Levin | After the stampede the artist Three Solid Frogs got to New Jersey, USA | his feet, retrieved his brush from his nostril, pulled | his easel out of a tree, and tried to think placid thoughts. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 08:27:05 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0AGR5Z04311 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:27:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.realityfailure.org (IDENT:root@realityfailure.org [209.150.103.212]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0AGR3f04307 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:27:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jjasen@localhost) by mail.realityfailure.org (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id h0AGR5c06067; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:27:05 -0500 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:27:05 -0500 (EST) From: John Jasen To: Jenn Sturm cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] to buy or not to buy service contracts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, Jenn Sturm wrote: > I've always bought service contracts for expensive equipment, but we're > in a strange situation here where it's just not clear if that's the > right path to take. We were offered a 32-processor SGI Origin 2000 for > $100K, with a $50K service contract. The machine is remarketed, which > I'm reluctant to go with, but it will perfectly fit a hole in our line > up of machines and enable us increase our resources on the cheap (we > already have a cluster--the Origin 2000 will serve a different need). SGI had several levels of hardware support, last I looked. You may be able to shave quite a bit off that by choosing a lower grade of service. Or, if you already have a lot of SGI equipment under contract, you may be able to chip away at it. And finally, as a third option, maybe an SGI reseller will be able to help you? When I was looking, I was able to cut the hardware support costs by ~20%. -- -- John E. Jasen (jjasen@realityfailure.org) -- User Error #2361: Please insert coffee and try again. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 08:27:19 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0AGRJ104400 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:27:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from yfandes.cs.wisc.edu (yfandes.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.162.24]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0AGRHf04388 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:27:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from yfandes.cs.wisc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by yfandes.cs.wisc.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA11886; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:27:16 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200301101627.KAA11886@yfandes.cs.wisc.edu> To: Jenn Sturm cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] to buy or not to buy service contracts In-Reply-To: Message from Jenn Sturm of "Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:07:51 EST." Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:27:16 -0600 From: David Parter X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > How does your shop run things? Do you buy the big service contracts? Or > do you take the gamble and keep reserve funds around? It really depends on the risk. Our high-end Cisco routers are on maintenance, nothing else is. All of our desktop workstations are easily repairable or replaceable by our staff, using either stock parts, or occassionally we have to get something funky (for the Suns or Dells. I hate Dell). In your specific case, what is likely to fail on your new Origin? If you lose a CPU and the rest still run, is that OK with your customers? How much are they willing to pay to have all the CPUs all the time? In general, if there is a single point of failure, what is the cost (in time and money) of replacing/fixing it? What is the cost of being down? If you can't have down time, then instead of a maintenance contract you can either buy your own spare, or you could re-design to not have a single point of failure. The tradeoffs vary from one situation to another. --david From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 08:32:20 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0AGWKb04769 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:32:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.hamilton.edu (mail.hamilton.edu [150.209.8.98]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0AGWJf04765 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:32:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail.hamilton.edu by mail.hamilton.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.08 (built Dec 6 2002)) id <0H8I00501AW5VD@mail.hamilton.edu> for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:27:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamilton.edu (chemistry-853-384.hamilton.edu [150.209.87.171]) by mail.hamilton.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.08 (built Dec 6 2002)) with ESMTPSA id <0H8I002Q7B1FPX@mail.hamilton.edu>; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:27:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:32:13 -0500 From: Jenn Sturm Subject: Re: [SAGE] to buy or not to buy service contracts In-reply-to: To: John Jasen Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Message-id: <12E9089D-24B9-11D7-A426-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk If I could get our sales guy (a reseller) to do anything other than throw numbers around on the phone (i.e. send me an actual quote) I might know more about these options! Thanks--I will look into various ways to chip away at it. I think the maintenance is extra expensive because it's a remarketed machine, but perhaps they can lower it somewhat. On Friday, January 10, 2003, at 11:27 AM, John Jasen wrote: > On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, Jenn Sturm wrote: > >> I've always bought service contracts for expensive equipment, but >> we're >> in a strange situation here where it's just not clear if that's the >> right path to take. We were offered a 32-processor SGI Origin 2000 for >> $100K, with a $50K service contract. The machine is remarketed, which >> I'm reluctant to go with, but it will perfectly fit a hole in our line >> up of machines and enable us increase our resources on the cheap (we >> already have a cluster--the Origin 2000 will serve a different need). > > SGI had several levels of hardware support, last I looked. You may be > able > to shave quite a bit off that by choosing a lower grade of service. > > Or, if you already have a lot of SGI equipment under contract, > you may be able to chip away at it. > > And finally, as a third option, maybe an SGI reseller will be able to > help > you? When I was looking, I was able to cut the hardware support costs > by > ~20%. > > -- > -- John E. Jasen (jjasen@realityfailure.org) > -- User Error #2361: Please insert coffee and try again. > > > ___________ Jennifer Sturm System Administrator and Research Support Specialist Chemistry Department Hamilton College 198 College Hill Road Clinton, NY 13323 tel: 315-859-4745 fax: 315-859-4744 jsturm@hamilton.edu http://www.chem.hamilton.edu/ http://mars.chem.hamilton.edu/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 08:34:29 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0AGYT005001 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:34:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail3.panix.com (mail3.panix.com [166.84.1.74]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0AGYRf04997 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:34:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix1.panix.com (panix1.panix.com [166.84.1.1]) by mail3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04826986B9; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:34:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from jac@localhost) by panix1.panix.com (8.11.6/8.8.8/PanixN1.0) id h0AGYQd19204; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:34:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:34:26 -0800 From: John Clear To: Jenn Sturm Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] to buy or not to buy service contracts Message-ID: <20030110163426.GA21768@panix.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 11:07:51AM -0500, Jenn Sturm wrote: >[$50K service contract on $100K used Origin 2000/32p] > > How does your shop run things? Do you buy the big service contracts? Or > do you take the gamble and keep reserve funds around? On the small stuff that we have alot of (mostly Sun Ultra 60s) we don't have service contracts, just cannibalize other machines, or remove failed parts and leave the machine going (bad cpu on a two cpu machine, just remove the cpu). On our bigger stuff (SunFire [248]80, SunFire 4800) we have service contracts since we don't have enough to cannibalize other systems, and they are fast enough to be missed if they are down. When we lose Ultra60s, we just take them out of the cluster until we repair them and no one notices. On a 32p Origin 2000, I'd risk going without a service contract, especially if you have people around familiar with the hardware. Unless you lose a power supply or backplane, the machine will run with a few cpu missing. Getting a power supply T&M will be expensive, but much less then $50k. John From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 09:03:20 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0AH3KC05639 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:03:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.LuftHans.com (wsip68-14-212-29.ph.ph.cox.net [68.14.212.29]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0AH3If05635 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:03:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.21.12.25] (helo=reiser) by smtp.LuftHans.com with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18X3DP-0006O4-00; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:45:07 -0700 Received: from reiser ([127.0.0.1] helo=localhost) by reiser with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18X2YW-0007r9-00; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:02:52 -0700 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:02:52 -0700 (MST) From: "der.hans" X-X-Sender: lufthans@reiser To: Christopher Malek cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software In-Reply-To: <20030109180913.A17080@dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-15 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by usenix.org id h0AH3Jf05636 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Am 09. Jan, 2003 schwätzte Christopher Malek so: > I've only ever done this with precompiled binaries, but AFAIK, you're > supposed to be able to get apt to download source packages and build > everything on your system. It works, but there are problems. Debian's binary package management is excellent, but I've found that many packages have source dependency problems. Others have noticed this as well, so it's getting fixed. Mostly due to the "competition" of gentoo :). ciao, der.hans -- # https://www.LuftHans.com/ http://www.TOLISGroup.com/ # "The reasons for my decision to quit were myriad, but central to the # decision ws the realization that there are two kinds of companies: # Good ones ask you to think for them. # The others tell you to think like them." -- Benjy Feen From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 09:32:17 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0AHWG206280 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:32:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ww1.co.jefferson.co.us (ww1.co.jefferson.co.us [206.247.49.20]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0AHWDf06272 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:32:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from gwgate.jefferson.co.us (gwgate [172.16.8.29]) by ww1.co.jefferson.co.us (Switch-2.2.2/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h0AHW3G05123 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:32:03 -0700 Received: from GWGC6-MTA by gwgate.jefferson.co.us with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:32:03 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.1 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:31:58 -0700 From: "Gary Studwell" To: Subject: Re: [SAGE] to buy or not to buy service contracts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We believe in service contracts for our bigger, name-brand servers (HP), and we make Linux/Netware/Win servers. For those we keep parts on hand, and even some unused blank machines we can image quickly. But the HP's are harder to keep parts for, and more expensive, so contract it is. Another negative aspect of going on a T&M basis, esp. with older hardware, is that the supplier is generally not bound to service a T&M call as fast, and may not keep a replacement part locally. I've heard of some cases where it took 2 to 3 weeks to get a replacement, and once when a replacement couldn't be had from the manufacturer at all (search for third-party vendor found it, though). >>> Jenn Sturm 9:07:51 AM 1/10/03 >>> How does your shop run things? Do you buy the big service contracts? Or do you take the gamble and keep reserve funds around? From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 10:04:19 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0AI4IA06844 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from hadar.amcc.com (hadar.amcc.com [192.195.69.168]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0AI4Hf06840 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:04:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.amcc.com ([192.195.69.30]) by hadar.amcc.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id H8IFIY00.7FO for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:04:10 -0800 Received: from amcc.com ([192.195.69.71]) by mailhost.amcc.com (SAVSMTP 3.0.0.44) with SMTP id M2003011010041303694 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:04:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3E1F0B1A.8070609@amcc.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:04:10 -0800 From: "Jerry Christopher" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2a) Gecko/20020910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] to buy or not to buy service contracts References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We involve our internal customers in the decison as much as possible. We evaluate the risks and look at the costs associated with different levels of the service contracts. It can be a light or detailed analysis depending on the audience, but we typically come up with a short menu of choices. Customer can weigh impact of risk on productivity and budget and help make the choice. Quick example, gold option: 24/7 support, 1 hour onsite repair/replacement, $X amount - little risk, quick restore from downtime, high cost. silver option: 12 hr support, 8hr onsite repair/replacement, 70% of $X amount, medium risk, same day restore, less cost. bronze option: 8hr support, next day repair/replacement, 50% of $X amount, higher risk, next day restore, low cost. No maintenance: Fix as possible, T&M or little to no cost, customer realizes risk and can live with the downtime while a solution is found. In your case, I'd be reluctant to go without service unless I knew there were spare parts available and the expertise on hand to come up with workarounds - some others mentioned removing CPU, replacing P/S, etc - to keep the system going should you experience a failure. Like John Jasen mentioned, I'd see if there were different levels of support available and get covered at the level of service your customer can handle, keeping in mind the budget constraints. -Jerry Jenn Sturm wrote: > How does your shop run things? Do you buy the big service contracts? > Or do you take the gamble and keep reserve funds around? From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 10:42:50 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0AIgol07627 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:42:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from web10504.mail.yahoo.com (web10504.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.154]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id h0AIgnf07622 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:42:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20030110184248.17851.qmail@web10504.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.244.233.2] by web10504.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:42:48 PST Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:42:48 -0800 (PST) From: Dark Tachyon Subject: Re: [SAGE] to buy or not to buy service contracts To: Jenn Sturm , John Jasen Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <12E9089D-24B9-11D7-A426-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Call Rick Kirmayer at Minicomputer Exchange (MCE). He set up a nice deal for me at Lucasfilm. We decided on MCE last year after reviewing SGI and 3rd party support options for our handful of SGIs (3x Origin 2000, 1x Origin 200, and 3x O2). The shift to 3rd party support came about because the cost of SGI support was getting out of hand compared to our usage of the SGIs (we're slowly phasing them out). Our SGIs rarely have issues but when they do, it usually means a failing hardware part rather than configuration or software problems. MCE helps me identify the failed part and then they a send a replacement. They can also help with hardware config. Their techs really know SGI and you can find them posting on newsgroups about SGI/Irix. Sometime I miss the onsite support for the more difficult to isolate problems, but it was a reasonable compromise. The only disadvantage is that MCE can't provide software updates. I don't know how SGI charges for software updates, but the security updates are free. In general, however, whereever I work, I always advocate service contracts for major hardware. Time contraints and bureaucracy make Time and Materials repairs very difficult when you have a system down/degraded. Every company I've worked for has some long drawn out process that usually ends up involving the legal department to resolve liability concerns related to T&M work. The apparent budget savings are totally lost as soon as you make the first T&M call. Some vendors will even force you to pay support costs back to the time the contract was not renewed (within 12 months). Legal? I dunno - all I know is that I have to figure out how to make a system limp along until the paperwork gets resolved and the vendor sends a part or an engineer. Cheers, Katherine Sauceda Unix Systems Adminsitrator Lucasfilm, Ltd. --- Jenn Sturm wrote: > If I could get our sales guy (a reseller) to do > anything other than > throw numbers around on the phone (i.e. send me an > actual quote) I > might know more about these options! Thanks--I will > look into various > ways to chip away at it. I think the maintenance is > extra expensive > because it's a remarketed machine, but perhaps they > can lower it > somewhat. > > On Friday, January 10, 2003, at 11:27 AM, John > Jasen wrote: > > > On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, Jenn Sturm wrote: > > > >> I've always bought service contracts for > expensive equipment, but > >> we're > >> in a strange situation here where it's just not > clear if that's the > >> right path to take. We were offered a > 32-processor SGI Origin 2000 for > >> $100K, with a $50K service contract. The machine > is remarketed, which > >> I'm reluctant to go with, but it will perfectly > fit a hole in our line > >> up of machines and enable us increase our > resources on the cheap (we > >> already have a cluster--the Origin 2000 will > serve a different need). > > > > SGI had several levels of hardware support, last I > looked. You may be > > able > > to shave quite a bit off that by choosing a lower > grade of service. > > > > Or, if you already have a lot of SGI equipment > under contract, > > you may be able to chip away at it. > > > > And finally, as a third option, maybe an SGI > reseller will be able to > > help > > you? When I was looking, I was able to cut the > hardware support costs > > by > > ~20%. > > > > -- > > -- John E. Jasen (jjasen@realityfailure.org) > > -- User Error #2361: Please insert coffee and try > again. > > > > > > > > > ___________ > Jennifer Sturm > System Administrator and Research Support Specialist > Chemistry Department > Hamilton College > 198 College Hill Road > Clinton, NY 13323 > > tel: 315-859-4745 > fax: 315-859-4744 > > jsturm@hamilton.edu > > http://www.chem.hamilton.edu/ > http://mars.chem.hamilton.edu/ > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 10:45:46 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0AIjk107855 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:45:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from dell4300-pdc.acad.kgi.edu (mail.kgi.edu [134.173.96.3]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id h0AIjif07851 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:45:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.kgi.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:45:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA493B792A6D311B51A009027D3B861013A493A@mail.kgi.edu> From: Dennis Viner To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: "'Jenn Sturm'" Subject: RE: [SAGE] to buy or not to buy service contracts Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:45:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We have a 16 cpu Origin 2k with a service contract that's a little bit over $11K per year. We selected the 'selfcare' option which means they ship the parts and we do the install if there's a problem. Technically someone is supposed to be SGI trained, but this has never been an issue. The price was based on a 3 year contract billed annually, but I was promised (in writing) by the rep that we could back out with 60 days notice. Based on our 3 years of experience with SGI, I'd strongly recommend the contract. We went through a 6 month stretch where the entire system would randomly hang about once a month without a dump. Impossible to trace and only solved by replacing the entire top module. I'd say the software maintenance is also required since SGI has made it very difficult to get patch information unless you have a contract. They used to offer a great Varsity program which provide all the development tools, but that was ended last year. The new program costs about 10x more than Sun's developer program. We're transitioning to Sun now, but the tradein for the Origin is minimal and it's still quit useful. Dennis Viner Network and Systems Administrator Keck Graduate Institute -----Original Message----- From: Jenn Sturm [mailto:jsturm@hamilton.edu] Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 8:08 AM To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] to buy or not to buy service contracts I've always bought service contracts for expensive equipment, but we're in a strange situation here where it's just not clear if that's the right path to take. We were offered a 32-processor SGI Origin 2000 for $100K, with a $50K service contract. The machine is remarketed, which I'm reluctant to go with, but it will perfectly fit a hole in our line up of machines and enable us increase our resources on the cheap (we already have a cluster--the Origin 2000 will serve a different need). If we purchase the service contract, it's possible that we might not be able to get all the funds together for the machine (we need to buy a big A/C for it as well as renovate a room, so it's getting expensive for a "cheap" machine). If, on the other hand, we don't purchase the service contract, and instead leave part of that money lying around for repairs, should they be needed, we leave ourselves open to the possibility of having a big pile of junk we couldn't afford to fix were there to be a catastrophic failure. How does your shop run things? Do you buy the big service contracts? Or do you take the gamble and keep reserve funds around? -Jenn ___________ Jennifer Sturm System Administrator and Research Support Specialist Chemistry Department Hamilton College 198 College Hill Road Clinton, NY 13323 tel: 315-859-4745 fax: 315-859-4744 jsturm@hamilton.edu http://www.chem.hamilton.edu/ http://mars.chem.hamilton.edu/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 10:48:36 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0AImaD08094 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:48:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from web10508.mail.yahoo.com (web10508.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.158]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id h0AImYf08090 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:48:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20030110184833.81635.qmail@web10508.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.244.233.2] by web10508.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:48:33 PST Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:48:33 -0800 (PST) From: Dark Tachyon Subject: Re: [SAGE] to buy or not to buy service contracts To: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --- Gary Studwell wrote: > Another negative aspect of going on a T&M basis, > esp. with older hardware, is that the supplier is > generally not bound to service a T&M call as fast, > and may not keep a replacement part locally. I've > heard of some cases where it took 2 to 3 weeks to get > a replacement, and once when a replacement couldn't > be had from the manufacturer at all (search for > third-party vendor found it, though). Agreed. Minicomputer Exchange (MCE) promised us fast turnaround. The contract (in a file cabinet somewhere - not looking for it now) states 24 or 48 hours, I think. MCE has always been able to provide me new parts for our SGIs within 24 hours, even backplanes (MCE also does Sun hardware, but we use Eakins Open Systems (EOS) for that). Cheers, Ren -- Katherine Sauceda Unix Systems Administrator Lucasfilm Ltd. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 11:05:33 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0AJ5XB08544 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:05:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from web10508.mail.yahoo.com (web10508.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.158]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id h0AJ5Vf08540 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:05:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20030110190528.84130.qmail@web10508.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.244.233.2] by web10508.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:05:28 PST Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:05:28 -0800 (PST) From: Dark Tachyon Subject: RE: [SAGE] to buy or not to buy service contracts To: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <3FA493B792A6D311B51A009027D3B861013A493A@mail.kgi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --- Dennis Viner wrote: > We have a 16 cpu Origin 2k with a service contract > that's a little bit over $11K per year. We selected > the 'selfcare' option which means they ship the > parts and we do the install if there's a problem. Oh that's cool! That might be some competition for MCE. Does self care include software support? > Technically someone is supposed to be SGI trained, > but this has never been an issue. The price was We swap our hardware in SGI and Sun our self all of the time. No one can do the 2-hour on site support here, even when pay for it because we are so far out in the country from the vendors. I've had every piece of two of our Origin 2000s out on the floor of the data center doing hardware fault isolation. I kind of like the look of a static mat floor myself. The big mats are tile size so a nice checker board effect can be achieved for moving around the room to get parts to move between machines for testings. ;) > based on a 3 year contract billed annually, but I > was promised (in writing) > by the rep that we could back out with 60 days > notice. Based on our 3 years > of experience with SGI, I'd strongly recommend the > contract. We went through > a 6 month stretch where the entire system would > randomly hang about once a > month without a dump. Impossible to trace and only > solved by replacing the > entire top module. > > I'd say the software maintenance is also required > since SGI has made it very > difficult to get patch information unless you have a > contract. They used to offer a great Varsity program > which provide all the development tools, but > that was ended last year. The new program costs > about 10x more than Sun's developer program. We're > transitioning to Sun now, but the tradein for the > Origin is minimal and it's still quit useful. The Varsity program was great. When I was at NERSC, we had Varsity support. Sorry to see it go. SGI is putting another nail in their own coffin. We are moving the SGI services to Suns and Intels running linux. Cheers, Ren -- Katherine Sauceda Unix Systems Administrator Lucasfilm Ltd. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 12:00:13 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0AK0DX09773 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from dell4300-pdc.acad.kgi.edu (mail.kgi.edu [134.173.96.3]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id h0AK08f09768 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:00:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.kgi.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:59:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA493B792A6D311B51A009027D3B861013A493F@mail.kgi.edu> From: Dennis Viner To: "'Dark Tachyon'" , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] to buy or not to buy service contracts Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:59:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -----Original Message----- From: Dark Tachyon [mailto:darktachyon@yahoo.com] > Oh that's cool! That might be some competition for > MCE. Does self care include software support? I should warn you that the price includes an academic discount, ymmv. No, the software is an extra $3k per year for updates and a 10 user educare developer bundle which is similar to varsity, but more expensive. > SGI is putting another nail in their own coffin. We are > moving the SGI services to Suns and Intels running > linux. Likewise. Now that Mathworks has announced they won't be providing new releases for Matlab on Irix, I think our move will happen even faster. Dennis Viner Network and Systems Administrator Keck Graduate Institute From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 12:47:59 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0AKlx710474 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:47:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.hamilton.edu (mail.hamilton.edu [150.209.8.98]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0AKlvf10470 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:47:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail.hamilton.edu by mail.hamilton.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.08 (built Dec 6 2002)) id <0H8I00E01MUAOC@mail.hamilton.edu> for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:42:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamilton.edu (chemistry-853-384.hamilton.edu [150.209.87.171]) by mail.hamilton.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.08 (built Dec 6 2002)) with ESMTPSA id <0H8I00DHLMVJHE@mail.hamilton.edu> for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:42:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:47:53 -0500 From: Jenn Sturm Subject: Re: [SAGE] to buy or not to buy service contracts In-reply-to: <20030110190528.84130.qmail@web10508.mail.yahoo.com> To: sage-members@usenix.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk One of the things that makes this situation difficult is that I am a one admin shop. So all of the parts swapping is done by me. I'm hardware savvy, and can be talked through anything, so that doesn't worry me, but we're certainly too small to keep spare parts on site and it also helps when someone can come fix it and I can save my time for other work. On the other hand, we're not a mission-critical shop. Our site does computational chemistry research with faculty and students at seven colleges, and the worst that will happen is that someone's work will be delayed. Everyone's had lots of compelling reasons to go in any of various directions. And I've also gotten great advice so far on new ways (for me) to consider the big pictures involved in making this decision. Numerous folks have written to me to suggest that I find a new vendor since I don't even have the actual quote in my hand yet. Our current vendor has been this way since the beginning, and I can't get a good answer as to why they're our primary vendor in the first place (other than the fact that since we're in a rural area they're the only folks within a couple of hours of here). I will definitely look into that option, though, and will also look into the option of lowering the service. We definitely don't need more than selfcare. I'll also try calling MCE, since they sound like a great option. Thanks all for the great advice (and definitely keep it coming if you've got more!). On Friday, January 10, 2003, at 02:05 PM, Dark Tachyon wrote: > > --- Dennis Viner wrote: >> We have a 16 cpu Origin 2k with a service contract >> that's a little bit over $11K per year. We selected >> the 'selfcare' option which means they ship the >> parts and we do the install if there's a problem. > > Oh that's cool! That might be some competition for > MCE. Does self care include software support? > >> Technically someone is supposed to be SGI trained, >> but this has never been an issue. The price was > > We swap our hardware in SGI and Sun our self all of > the time. No one can do the 2-hour on site support > here, even when pay for it because we are so far out > in the country from the vendors. I've had every piece > of two of our Origin 2000s out on the floor of the > data center doing hardware fault isolation. I kind of > like the look of a static mat floor myself. The big > mats are tile size so a nice checker board effect can > be achieved for moving around the room to get parts to > move between machines for testings. ;) > >> based on a 3 year contract billed annually, but I >> was promised (in writing) >> by the rep that we could back out with 60 days >> notice. Based on our 3 years >> of experience with SGI, I'd strongly recommend the >> contract. We went through >> a 6 month stretch where the entire system would >> randomly hang about once a >> month without a dump. Impossible to trace and only >> solved by replacing the >> entire top module. >> >> I'd say the software maintenance is also required >> since SGI has made it very >> difficult to get patch information unless you have a >> contract. They used to offer a great Varsity program > >> which provide all the development tools, but >> that was ended last year. The new program costs >> about 10x more than Sun's developer program. We're >> transitioning to Sun now, but the tradein for the >> Origin is minimal and it's still quit useful. > > The Varsity program was great. When I was at NERSC, we > had Varsity support. Sorry to see it go. SGI is > putting another nail in their own coffin. We are > moving the SGI services to Suns and Intels running > linux. > > Cheers, > Ren > -- > Katherine Sauceda > Unix Systems Administrator > Lucasfilm Ltd. > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > ___________ Jennifer Sturm System Administrator and Research Support Specialist Chemistry Department Hamilton College 198 College Hill Road Clinton, NY 13323 tel: 315-859-4745 fax: 315-859-4744 jsturm@hamilton.edu http://www.chem.hamilton.edu/ http://mars.chem.hamilton.edu/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 14:26:03 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0AMQ3T11862 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:26:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.in.starshine.org (postfix@antares.starshine.org [216.240.40.177]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0AMQ1f11854 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:26:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mars.starshine.org (phobos.starshine.org [216.240.40.166]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F6B4397D; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:36:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mars.starshine.org (mars.starshine.org [127.0.0.1]) by mars.starshine.org (8.12.5/8.12.5/Debian-1) with ESMTP id h0AMI1PG020497; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:18:01 -0800 Received: (from jimd@localhost) by mars.starshine.org (8.12.5/8.12.5/Debian-1) id h0AMI0MA020495; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:18:00 -0800 From: Jim Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:18:00 -0800 To: Jim Hickstein Cc: Josh Smith , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-ID: <20030110221800.GC20259@mars.starshine.org> References: <47970000.1042155788@jxh.mirapoint.com> <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> <20030109234937.89157424@gray.impulse.net> <50190000.1042157581@jxh.mirapoint.com> <15902.4638.930418.600083@azazel.infersys.com> <58130000.1042159154@jxh.mirapoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <58130000.1042159154@jxh.mirapoint.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 04:39:14PM -0800, Jim Hickstein wrote: >>Does Debian have anything like Kickstart (or Jumpstart)? That's long been >>the killer app for my choice of OS. Upgrading without downtime is good, >>but automated rebuilding is more critical (especially in academia, where >>downtime isn't nearly as expensive). > Hi, Josh! > I'm not familiar with this, but I think it exists, and it's fairly highly > developed. Jim Dennis gave a quick talk about this at the last BayLISA > meeting (but I wasn't paying attention -- sorry, Jim.) You might want to > start your research with "PXE". This seems to be the PC-type thing that > can boot over the network while still under control of the ROM. Sadly Debian doesn't have Kickstart. It's certainly possible to have PXE start a shell script (from a small boot/root initrd image, optionally adding NFS (possible readonly) and then just roll your own with sfdisk (scriptable fdisk) and tar. Once you untar a basic Debian installation you can do the rest using shell scripting, too. Even most of the hardware detection stuff is possible after the fact. I've considered modifying kickstart (Anaconda) to handle Debian. The parts I really want are the automatic partitioning and the basic environment. I'm sure it could be refactored to make the distribution installation modular. It's just that I'd have to fuss so much around the UI! -- Jim Dennis From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 15:04:49 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0AN4nb12589 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:04:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.in.starshine.org (postfix@antares.starshine.org [216.240.40.177]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0AN4kf12585 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:04:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mars.starshine.org (phobos.starshine.org [216.240.40.166]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39EF2397D; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:14:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mars.starshine.org (mars.starshine.org [127.0.0.1]) by mars.starshine.org (8.12.5/8.12.5/Debian-1) with ESMTP id h0AMumPG020722; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:56:48 -0800 Received: (from jimd@localhost) by mars.starshine.org (8.12.5/8.12.5/Debian-1) id h0AMumvD020720; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:56:48 -0800 From: Jim Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:56:48 -0800 To: Cat Okita Cc: Jim Hickstein , Josh Smith , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-ID: <20030110225648.GD20259@mars.starshine.org> References: <58130000.1042159154@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030109194741.F2914-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030109194741.F2914-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 07:48:42PM -0500, Cat Okita wrote: > On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Jim Hickstein wrote: >> I'm not familiar with this, but I think it exists, and it's fairly highly >> developed. Jim Dennis gave a quick talk about this at the last BayLISA >> meeting (but I wasn't paying attention -- sorry, Jim.) You might want to >> start your research with "PXE". This seems to be the PC-type thing that >> can boot over the network while still under control of the ROM. > My recollection from the last time I touched PXE was that you could use > it (all presuming that you have the right revision on the card et al) to > boot off of a specified image - but that you still needed to hand off > control to something like kickstart or jumpstart. > Dunno about you - I'm not too eager to write either myself ;> Part of H Peter Anvin's SYSLINUX package (the dominant one used to create boot Linux floppies on MSDOS/FAT filesystems, and thus used to make El Torito images --- the thing that gives you the boot prompt during a Red Hat boot for installation) is called PXELinux. That is the network boot loader, fetched by a slight variant of tftp (part of the PXE process, after its DHCP). PXELinux then fetches a config file (host, or subnet specific, or the site-wide/server default.cfg). You can subnet on nibble boundaries in the PXELinux scheme. (It takes the IP addr given via DHCP, represent it as a simple hex string and try AABBCCDD then AABBCCD, then AABBCC, AABBC, AABB, etc.) That config file as the same syntax as a syslinux.cfg file. It can specify multiple boot options, prompt the user to select one, timeout and automatically load one, etc. Each stanza or boot item specifies a kernel file, an optional initrd (initial RAMdisk) image, and an arbitrary set of command line arguments passed to the kernel, and thence to the init process via it's command tail and/or its environment. * (A relatively obscure note about Linux kernel command line parsing --- after all kernel options/arguments have been processed, anything that's left that is in the form: FOO=BAR is set at part of the init process' environment. Anything left after that is passed to the init process' command line. All of the kernel command line remains available throughout the session by cat'ing /proc/cmdline; I use set -- `cat /proc/cmdline` to pass my own arguments into my Kickstart postinstall scripts. I also use wget -O - .... | sh - to dynamically pull my postinstall scripts from the kickstart server unto the local machine --- and I parse H= and M= variables to process a whole hierarchy of H/domain postinstallation scripts and Machine type installation scripts). The gist of all of this is that you can take any bootable Linux floppy, turn it into an initrd, and use that over PXE. Thus you can prototype your own custom installer using any scripting language you like. BTW: Anaconda (the installation program which features kickstart) is actually a Python script --- thus the serpentine name ;) So, Cat, I think you wouldn't find this to be as painful as you seem to imply. Personally I think the hardest part would be to replace sfdisk. It's "scriptability" is pathetic. -- Jim Dennis From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 15:11:42 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0ANBgU12872 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:11:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.in.starshine.org (postfix@antares.starshine.org [216.240.40.177]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0ANBef12868 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:11:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mars.starshine.org (phobos.starshine.org [216.240.40.166]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F341397D; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:21:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mars.starshine.org (mars.starshine.org [127.0.0.1]) by mars.starshine.org (8.12.5/8.12.5/Debian-1) with ESMTP id h0AN3ePG020769; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:03:40 -0800 Received: (from jimd@localhost) by mars.starshine.org (8.12.5/8.12.5/Debian-1) id h0AN3eNA020767; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:03:40 -0800 From: Jim Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:03:40 -0800 To: Robert Au Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-ID: <20030110230340.GE20259@mars.starshine.org> References: <47970000.1042155788@jxh.mirapoint.com> <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> <20030109234937.89157424@gray.impulse.net> <50190000.1042157581@jxh.mirapoint.com> <15902.4638.930418.600083@azazel.infersys.com> <20030110005024.GM7671@goldrush.lsil.Com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030110005024.GM7671@goldrush.lsil.Com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 04:50:24PM -0800, Robert Au wrote: > On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 04:21:50PM -0800, Josh Smith wrote: >> JXH> Debian does a good job of dealing with this live-ugprade stuff, and >> JXH> doesn't assume you are sitting at the machine. I am becoming a big >> JXH> fan of Debian. >> Does Debian have anything like Kickstart (or Jumpstart)? That's long been >> the killer app for my choice of OS. Upgrading without downtime is good, >> but automated rebuilding is more critical (especially in academia, where >> downtime isn't nearly as expensive). > Here's a few (rough) notes I had for automatic Linux installation. > System Installation Suite, unlike most of the others, is image-based, not > package-based. > FAI (Debian, Solaris) > http://www.informatik.uni-koeln.de/fai/ > Kickstart (RedHat) > alice (SuSE) I hadn't heard of this one. > System Installation Suite (successor to IBM's LUI; works with > most Linux distributions) > http://sisuite.org/ > NAIS (Debian, SuSE, maybe others) > http://nais.sourceforge.net/ Nor this one. > How to Install Red Hat Linux via PXE and Kickstart > http://www.slac.stanford.edu/~alfw/PXE-Kickstart/ > OSCAR (Open Source Cluster Application Resources) > http://oscar.sourceforge.net/ > Cluster Command and Control > http://www.csm.ornl.gov/torc/C3/ There's also System Imager, originally created and maintained by VA Linux systems (nee VA Research, now VA Software). VA is still the maintainer of SourceForge. There was also the Progeny AutoInstaller --- but I'm not sure it's being maintained. Progeny was an offshoot of Debian whose prinipals were long time members of the Debian community. Many of the Progeny people are still Debian maintainers and most (all?) of the Progeny work was folded back into the mainstream Debian. Progeny is still doing some work --- mostly with HP I gather: http://www.progeny.com/ I have successfully used a Tom's Root/Boot, sfdisk and a shell script (and a read-only NFS server) to create a custom installation system. It's not as nice as Kickstart --- but it served its purpose before KS got better ;) -- Jim Dennis From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 15:27:42 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0ANRgZ13262 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail0.lsil.com (mail0.lsil.com [147.145.40.20]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0ANRef13257 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mhbs.lsil.com (mhbs.lsil.com [147.145.31.100]) by mail0.lsil.com (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id h0ANQgS9022104 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:27:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from dp25.lsil.com by mhbs.lsil.com with ESMTP for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:27:25 -0800 Received: from goldrush.lsil.Com (goldrush.lsil.COM [147.145.26.130]) by dp25.lsil.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08988 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:27:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rau@localhost) by goldrush.lsil.Com (8.12.5/8.12.5) id h0ANRPAx056483 for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:27:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rau) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:27:25 -0800 From: Robert Au To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-Id: <20030110232725.GN55806@goldrush.lsil.Com> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <47970000.1042155788@jxh.mirapoint.com> <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> <20030109234937.89157424@gray.impulse.net> <50190000.1042157581@jxh.mirapoint.com> <15902.4638.930418.600083@azazel.infersys.com> <20030110005024.GM7671@goldrush.lsil.Com> <20030110230340.GE20259@mars.starshine.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030110230340.GE20259@mars.starshine.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 03:03:40PM -0800, Jim wrote: > On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 04:50:24PM -0800, Robert Au wrote: > > System Installation Suite (successor to IBM's LUI; works with > > most Linux distributions) > > http://sisuite.org/ [snip] > There's also System Imager, originally created and maintained by > VA Linux systems (nee VA Research, now VA Software). VA is still > the maintainer of SourceForge. System Imager is actually part of System Installation Suite. See http://oss.software.ibm.com/developerworks/forum/forum.php?forum_id=203 for the details of the merger. -- Robert Au rau@lsil.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 15:52:48 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0ANqms13750 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:52:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.in.starshine.org (postfix@antares.starshine.org [216.240.40.177]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0ANqjf13746 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mars.starshine.org (phobos.starshine.org [216.240.40.166]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36B1397D; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:02:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mars.starshine.org (mars.starshine.org [127.0.0.1]) by mars.starshine.org (8.12.5/8.12.5/Debian-1) with ESMTP id h0ANikPG020993; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:44:46 -0800 Received: (from jimd@localhost) by mars.starshine.org (8.12.5/8.12.5/Debian-1) id h0ANifHw020991; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:44:41 -0800 From: Jim Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:44:41 -0800 To: Christopher Malek Cc: Jim Hickstein , Ted Cabeen , Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-ID: <20030110234441.GF20259@mars.starshine.org> References: <47970000.1042155788@jxh.mirapoint.com> <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> <20030109234937.89157424@gray.impulse.net> <50190000.1042157581@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030109162505.B16410@dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030109162505.B16410@dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 04:25:05PM -0800, Christopher Malek wrote: > JH: Jim Hickstein > JH> But I doubt they address what apt-get dist-upgrade can do: I took a > JH> neglected Debian 2.2 "stable" machine (hadn't been touched for over a > JH> year), did "apt-get update" to prepare to upgrade it to 3.0 (by then the > JH> "stable" release), and did the dist-upgrade via ssh, with the machine > JH> running as a production web server. > FWIW, I've had people report to me that they've successfully > dist-upgrade'd from RH6.x boxes to RH7.x boxes via apt-rpm. Not sure > what the downtime was (you would probably have to modify a few config > files after all ... at least sendmail). > That personally gives me the screaming heebie jeebies. :) I had one friend that did a "live" conversion of his Red Hat system *into* a Debian system in a way that would really set your skin crawling. He started with 'swapoff' and then did a mkfs on the swap partition, mounted that, extracted a small tar of a full Debian system to that (you can fit one in let than 100Mb with full networking), reworked LILO, ran /sbin/lilo, and then rebooted (with fingers crossed). After it came back up, he ssh'd back into it (having gotten that part *right*) and reformatted his other filesystems and just kinda shoved everything in place. -- Jim Dennis From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 10 17:33:15 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0B1XEv14707 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:33:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from crusoe.degler.net (crusoe.degler.net [66.114.64.229]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0B1XBf14703 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by crusoe.degler.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h0B1XBe12036 for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:33:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:33:11 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for call management/helpdesk software Message-ID: <20030111013311.GB11740@snew.com> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <47970000.1042155788@jxh.mirapoint.com> <001101c2b658$a1787ac0$472aa8c0@arorapc.com> <20030107145624.GA53109@rfc822.net> <20030109230558.GA26621@snew.com> <20030109234937.89157424@gray.impulse.net> <50190000.1042157581@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030109162505.B16410@dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu> <20030110234441.GF20259@mars.starshine.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030110234441.GF20259@mars.starshine.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > I had one friend that did a "live" conversion of his Red Hat system > *into* a Debian system in a way that would really set your skin > crawling. ... > After it came back up, he ssh'd back into it (having gotten that Oh sure, with a reboot. Yeah. it's easy. And they are both Linux. I just had a machine die 3000 miles away. Ok, a disk. I've never seen or touched the machine (sparc 10, I'm told). The machine was dropped at my ISP by a friend. They hooked up the console and I did a "boot net" from a sparc 2. Installed the OS, rebooted and went on. That was after converting the Sparc 2 a couple years before from SunOS 4 to OpenBSD from 3000 miles away (2 disks drives). All flawless until a disk died in the 10 last monday :( Note to ALWAYS have an emergency boot available on a second disk. I can get OpenBSD quite functional under 20MB. I'm sort of intrigued with Sun's "live updates" of multiCPU machines and still enjoy pulling cards out of live machines to replace them. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 15 23:30:52 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0G7Uqo05186 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:30:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtprelay3.dc3.adelphia.net (smtprelay3.dc3.adelphia.net [24.50.78.6]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0G7Uof05181 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:30:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from bob.pobox.com ([68.68.205.68]) by smtprelay3.dc3.adelphia.net (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H8SQ7E01.A00; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 02:30:50 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115225105.03b9f220@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: bhami@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:31:14 -0800 To: sage-members@sage.org From: Bruce Hamilton Subject: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk My department, which has nearly 20 Unix sys admins running about as many distinct administrative domains*, needs to put together some sort of "run book" documentation so that any admin can come quickly up to speed in any other admin's domain. We already have a pretty good database with detailed records per server giving stuff like OS version, serial#, and lots of detailed hardware configuration information. We need to go far beyond that to document how various hosts interact, where accounts get added, where and how various system databases are maintained, etc. A cursory search of Google (Web and USENET) doesn't seem to come up with much. Surely every major consulting company and large in-house IT shop has encountered this problem. We need standards and templates that are comprehensive but that at the same time can be broken into manageable chunks so that a sys admin with an hour here or there can produce something useful toward the goal. Any pointers or discussion would be most welcome. Might this be a good topic for a SAGE "Short Topics in System Administration" booklet? I can get some inspiration from the SAGE Job Descriptions, the Evi Nemeth Handbook, or the BOK efforts, but I'm looking for something a lot less encyclopedic and more focused, starting with the most important day-to-day questions, e.g.: - Who are the key customers? What are their requirements? Who controls their funding? - How are requests tracked? - How are new accounts created? - How are new hosts added? (procuring network drop, creating host table and/or DNS entries, ...) - How are backups performed? Describe offsite procedures, retention, and media rotation. - How are outages scheduled? - ... --Bruce (Bruce Hamilton, Redondo Beach, CA) bhami@pobox.com http://bhami.com/ * What would be a better term than "administrative domain" for "the stuff one person admins"? It typically would include multiple subnets and may or may not correspond to a DNS domain. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 05:55:50 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GDtoO26750 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 05:55:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from amdext2.amd.com (amdext2.amd.com [163.181.251.1]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GDtmf26746 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 05:55:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sausgs01.amd.com (sausgs01.amd.com [163.181.250.16]) by amdext2.amd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/AMD) with SMTP id HAA23826; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:55:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from 163.181.250.1 by sausgs01.amd.com with ESMTP (Tumbleweed MMS SMTP Relay (MMS v4.7);); Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:55:41 -0600 X-Server-Uuid: 18a6aeba-11ae-11d5-983c-00508be33d6d Received: from timon.amd.com (timon.amd.com [163.181.34.103]) by amdint2.amd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/AMD) with ESMTP id HAA19827; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:55:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from tesla.amd.com (IDENT: /3uZoZcJl0bSWkjRqVbGqVi3ywLGhArT@tesla.amd.com [163.181.28.194]) by timon.amd.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h0GDv4e14443; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:57:04 -0600 (CST) Received: (from quentin@localhost) by tesla.amd.com ( 8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3-MPD-evision: 1.5 $) id HAA27694; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07: 55:34 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: tesla.amd.com: quentin set sender to quentin.fennessy@amd.com using -f To: "Bruce Hamilton" cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115225105.03b9f220@mail.earthlink.net> From: "Quentin Fennessy" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115225105.03b9f220@mail.earthlink.net> ( "Bruce Hamilton"'s message of "Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:31:14 -0800") X-Face: iCR.GtDe<@4HtKtFlGBtRD@E<_3: 43$f_96mA7V+Ro>ZgYt$&K-r0-%]ar`}#'4{Ug/wmSP Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:55:34 -0600 Message-ID: Lines: 70 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090007 (Oort Gnus v0.07) Emacs/21.1 ( i686-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 12386657262302-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi Bruce- You've described an interesting project, and I cannot help you directly. But here's my 2 cents: $.01 It is better to remove the differences than to document them $.01 It is better to have 1 good solution than 2 or 3 or 20 different solutions (like account creation tools, system databases) I suggest your department direct the sys admins to use similar practices rather than to document the differences. Quentin >>>>> Bruce Hamilton writes: > My department, which has nearly 20 Unix sys admins running about as many > distinct administrative domains*, needs to put together some sort of "run > book" documentation so that any admin can come quickly up to speed in any > other admin's domain. > We already have a pretty good database with detailed records per server > giving stuff like OS version, serial#, and lots of detailed hardware > configuration information. We need to go far beyond that to document how > various hosts interact, where accounts get added, where and how various > system databases are maintained, etc. > A cursory search of Google (Web and USENET) doesn't seem to come up with > much. Surely every major consulting company and large in-house IT shop has > encountered this problem. > We need standards and templates that are comprehensive but that at the same > time can be broken into manageable chunks so that a sys admin with an hour > here or there can produce something useful toward the goal. > Any pointers or discussion would be most welcome. Might this be a good topic > for a SAGE "Short Topics in System Administration" booklet? > I can get some inspiration from the SAGE Job Descriptions, the Evi Nemeth > Handbook, or the BOK efforts, but I'm looking for something a lot less > encyclopedic and more focused, starting with the most important day-to-day > questions, e.g.: > - Who are the key customers? What are their requirements? Who controls their > funding? > - How are requests tracked? > - How are new accounts created? > - How are new hosts added? (procuring network drop, creating host table > and/or DNS entries, ...) > - How are backups performed? Describe offsite procedures, retention, and > media rotation. > - How are outages scheduled? > - ... > --Bruce (Bruce Hamilton, Redondo Beach, CA) > bhami@pobox.com > http://bhami.com/ > * What would be a better term than "administrative domain" for "the stuff > one person admins"? It typically would include multiple subnets and may or > may not correspond to a DNS domain. -- Quentin Fennessy Quentin.Fennessy@amd.com Office: 512.602.3873 Cell: 512.694.7489 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 06:16:13 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GEGDx27148 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 06:16:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay-4.ziplink.net (relay-4.ziplink.net [206.15.168.83]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GEGBf27143 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 06:16:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from wn.net (ws-166.gnaps.com [206.190.209.166]) by relay-4.ziplink.net (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h0GEG8T25591; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:16:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3E26BEA7.10009@wn.net> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:16:07 -0500 From: Robert Haskins Organization: WorldNET User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Hamilton CC: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115225105.03b9f220@mail.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I don't have my copy handy, but I believe Tom Limoncelli and Christine Hogan's EXCELLENT book, _The Practice of System and Network Administration_ addresses this topic, to some degree at least. Bruce Hamilton wrote: > My department, which has nearly 20 Unix sys admins running about as many > distinct administrative domains*, needs to put together some sort of > "run book" documentation so that any admin can come quickly up to speed > in any other admin's domain. > > We already have a pretty good database with detailed records per server > giving stuff like OS version, serial#, and lots of detailed hardware > configuration information. We need to go far beyond that to document how > various hosts interact, where accounts get added, where and how various > system databases are maintained, etc. > > A cursory search of Google (Web and USENET) doesn't seem to come up with > much. Surely every major consulting company and large in-house IT shop > has encountered this problem. > > We need standards and templates that are comprehensive but that at the > same time can be broken into manageable chunks so that a sys admin with > an hour here or there can produce something useful toward the goal. > > Any pointers or discussion would be most welcome. Might this be a good > topic for a SAGE "Short Topics in System Administration" booklet? > > I can get some inspiration from the SAGE Job Descriptions, the Evi > Nemeth Handbook, or the BOK efforts, but I'm looking for something a lot > less encyclopedic and more focused, starting with the most important > day-to-day questions, e.g.: > > - Who are the key customers? What are their requirements? Who controls > their funding? > - How are requests tracked? > - How are new accounts created? > - How are new hosts added? (procuring network drop, creating host table > and/or DNS entries, ...) > - How are backups performed? Describe offsite procedures, retention, and > media rotation. > - How are outages scheduled? > - ... > > --Bruce (Bruce Hamilton, Redondo Beach, CA) > bhami@pobox.com > http://bhami.com/ > > * What would be a better term than "administrative domain" for "the > stuff one person admins"? It typically would include multiple subnets > and may or may not correspond to a DNS domain. > > -- Robert D. Haskins WorldNET Internet Services mailto:rhaskins@wn.net http://www.ziplink.net/~rhaskins From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 06:40:40 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GEee727517 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 06:40:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from coat.coat.com (coat.coat.com [164.153.10.15]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GEecf27513 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 06:40:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from endor.coat.com by coat.coat.com (8.8.8+Sun/BCFW-HUB-1.14) id JAA15952; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:40:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:41:35 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Hoskins To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates In-Reply-To: <3E26BEA7.10009@wn.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Robert Haskins wrote: > I don't have my copy handy, but I believe Tom Limoncelli and Christine > Hogan's EXCELLENT book, _The Practice of System and Network > Administration_ addresses this topic, to some degree at least. > ISBN: 0201702711 816pp, pub. Aug 2001, Pearson Education -- Mike Hoskins/Sys Mgmt Supv < Burlington Coat Factory voice 609/387-7800 x2554 Systems Management fax 609/387-2764 1830 North Rt #130 mike.hoskins@coat.com Burlington, NJ 08016 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 06:44:18 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GEiIS27569 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 06:44:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from coat.coat.com (coat.coat.com [164.153.10.15]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GEiGf27564 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 06:44:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from endor.coat.com by coat.coat.com (8.8.8+Sun/BCFW-HUB-1.14) id JAA17149; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:44:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:45:19 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Hoskins To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates In-Reply-To: <3E26BEA7.10009@wn.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This would be a WONDERFUL topic for a short topic book. This is something that I have struggled with for over a year. Time is one problem, but collecting all of the appropriate pieces is another task. Then designing the database for the information, etc. Am I reinventing the wheel here? Mike -- Mike Hoskins/Sys Mgmt Supv < Burlington Coat Factory voice 609/387-7800 x2554 Systems Management fax 609/387-2764 1830 North Rt #130 mike.hoskins@coat.com Burlington, NJ 08016 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 08:17:35 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GGHZS28635 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:17:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from maple.itsd.gov.bc.ca (maple.itsd.gov.bc.ca [142.32.11.109]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GGHUf28630 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from pipe.gov.bc.ca (pipe.bcsc.gov.bc.ca [142.32.11.55]) by maple.itsd.gov.bc.ca (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h0GGHNFT009538 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:17:23 -0800 Received: by pipe.bcsc.gov.bc.ca with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:17:23 -0800 Message-ID: <6506849CAEBBE24E913A22806016E406020A7A25@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> From: "Sargent, Damaris FOR:EX" To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:17:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This would be an excellent addition to a booklet, and not just for Unix admin... My division supports multiple domains too, but they vary from Unix to Novell, to Windows NT and Windows 2000. The tasks we need to get done are similar between operating systems, although the details of how to do that are what vary. Much of the information we need is actually documented, but it is buried in huge books, or is stored in many different locations. So, a series of templates that could be filled out and stored in one location would be a great addition to our documentation. >Damaris Sargent, BA MCP >Damaris.Sargent@GEMS1.gov.bc.ca -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Hamilton [mailto:bhami@pobox.com] Sent: January 15, 2003 11:31 PM To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates My department, which has nearly 20 Unix sys admins running about as many distinct administrative domains*, needs to put together some sort of "run book" documentation so that any admin can come quickly up to speed in any other admin's domain. We already have a pretty good database with detailed records per server giving stuff like OS version, serial#, and lots of detailed hardware configuration information. We need to go far beyond that to document how various hosts interact, where accounts get added, where and how various system databases are maintained, etc. A cursory search of Google (Web and USENET) doesn't seem to come up with much. Surely every major consulting company and large in-house IT shop has encountered this problem. We need standards and templates that are comprehensive but that at the same time can be broken into manageable chunks so that a sys admin with an hour here or there can produce something useful toward the goal. Any pointers or discussion would be most welcome. Might this be a good topic for a SAGE "Short Topics in System Administration" booklet? I can get some inspiration from the SAGE Job Descriptions, the Evi Nemeth Handbook, or the BOK efforts, but I'm looking for something a lot less encyclopedic and more focused, starting with the most important day-to-day questions, e.g.: - Who are the key customers? What are their requirements? Who controls their funding? - How are requests tracked? - How are new accounts created? - How are new hosts added? (procuring network drop, creating host table and/or DNS entries, ...) - How are backups performed? Describe offsite procedures, retention, and media rotation. - How are outages scheduled? - ... --Bruce (Bruce Hamilton, Redondo Beach, CA) bhami@pobox.com http://bhami.com/ * What would be a better term than "administrative domain" for "the stuff one person admins"? It typically would include multiple subnets and may or may not correspond to a DNS domain. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 08:41:44 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GGfhn29144 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:41:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from www2.cle.lionbioscience.com (www2.cle.lionbioscience.com [63.69.121.227]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GGfgf29140 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:41:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluefish.cle.lionbioscience.com (bluefish.cle.lionbioscience.com [10.20.1.10]) by www2.cle.lionbioscience.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F6381BF2D7; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:41:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from exchgcle.netgenics.com (exchgcle.cle.lionbioscience.com [10.20.1.6]) by bluefish.cle.lionbioscience.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE1ADE2089; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:41:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by exchange.cle.lionbioscience.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:47:48 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Andrews, Martin" To: "'Quentin Fennessy'" , Bruce Hamilton Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:47:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quentin, I am facing a similar situation to Bruce: several sites each being administered independently. My initial bias as we start to collect documentation on various practices is the same as yours - it is easier to standardize than document (and maintain) the differences. Still, a standard template for key IT procedures and architecture would be useful. Even with one "right" way you would need to fill out the template once - and I expect it will be useful to survey the various sites for their current configuration when you try to determine what the "right" way is. So I am still eager for a template. Martin ---- Martin Andrews martin.andrews@lionbioscience.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Quentin Fennessy [mailto:quentin.fennessy@amd.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 8:56 AM > To: Bruce Hamilton > Cc: sage-members@sage.org > Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards > and templates > > > > Hi Bruce- > > You've described an interesting project, and I cannot help > you directly. > But here's my 2 cents: > > $.01 It is better to remove the differences than to document them > > $.01 It is better to have 1 good solution than 2 or 3 or > 20 different > solutions (like account creation tools, system databases) > > I suggest your department direct the sys admins to use > similar practices > rather than to document the differences. > > Quentin From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 08:49:20 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GGnKS29452 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:49:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from amdext.amd.com (amdext.amd.com [139.95.251.1]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GGnJf29448 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:49:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from sausgs01.amd.com (sausgs01.amd.com [163.181.250.16]) by amdext.amd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/AMD) with SMTP id IAA09785; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from 163.181.250.1 by sausgs01.amd.com with ESMTP (Tumbleweed MMS SMTP Relay (MMS v4.7);); Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:49:11 -0600 X-Server-Uuid: 18a6aeba-11ae-11d5-983c-00508be33d6d Received: from timon.amd.com (timon.amd.com [163.181.34.103]) by amdint2.amd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/AMD) with ESMTP id KAA03351; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:49:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from tesla.amd.com (IDENT: vJKcXC99TI7cNJP09fdliT2qDwdojBbj@tesla.amd.com [163.181.28.194]) by timon.amd.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h0GGoee27287; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:50:40 -0600 (CST) Received: (from quentin@localhost) by tesla.amd.com ( 8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3-MPD-evision: 1.5 $) id KAA06628; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10: 49:09 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: tesla.amd.com: quentin set sender to quentin.fennessy@amd.com using -f To: "Andrews, Martin" cc: "Bruce Hamilton" , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates References: From: "Quentin Fennessy" In-Reply-To: ("Andrews, Martin"'s message of "Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:47:42 -0500") X-Face: iCR.GtDe<@4HtKtFlGBtRD@E<_3: 43$f_96mA7V+Ro>ZgYt$&K-r0-%]ar`}#'4{Ug/wmSP Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:49:09 -0600 Message-ID: Lines: 52 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090007 (Oort Gnus v0.07) Emacs/21.1 ( i686-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 12383D0D285638-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> Andrews, Martin writes: > Quentin, > I am facing a similar situation to Bruce: several sites each being > administered independently. My initial bias as we start to collect > documentation on various practices is the same as yours - it is easier to > standardize than document (and maintain) the differences. Still, a standard > template for key IT procedures and architecture would be useful. Even with > one "right" way you would need to fill out the template once - and I expect > it will be useful to survey the various sites for their current > configuration when you try to determine what the "right" way is. So I am > still eager for a template. I agree with you and Bruce -- the template is a great idea. Someone else suggested PoSaNA - Practice of System and Network Administration by Limoncelli and Hogan. That is my favorite book on system administration. My copy is at home -- but it may help out. Even if there is not a template in it, each chapter (iirc) has a need-to-have or basics section that can help start the list. Quentin >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Quentin Fennessy [mailto:quentin.fennessy@amd.com] >> Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 8:56 AM >> To: Bruce Hamilton >> Cc: sage-members@sage.org >> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards >> and templates >> >> Hi Bruce- >> >> You've described an interesting project, and I cannot help >> you directly. >> But here's my 2 cents: >> >> $.01 It is better to remove the differences than to document them >> >> $.01 It is better to have 1 good solution than 2 or 3 or >> 20 different >> solutions (like account creation tools, system databases) >> >> I suggest your department direct the sys admins to use >> similar practices >> rather than to document the differences. -- Quentin Fennessy Quentin.Fennessy@amd.com Office: 512.602.3873 Cell: 512.694.7489 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 09:29:57 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GHTvs00047 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:29:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.22]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GHTtf00043 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:29:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.200.36] (nat64.mirapoint.com [63.107.133.64]) by m1.imap-partners.net (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id ABC13530; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:29:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:29:52 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Bruce Hamilton cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates Message-ID: <8800000.1042738192@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115225105.03b9f220@mail.earthlink.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115225105.03b9f220@mail.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > My department, which has nearly 20 Unix sys admins running about as many > distinct administrative domains*, needs to put together some sort of "run > book" documentation so that any admin can come quickly up to speed in any > other admin's domain. We use TWiki (www.twiki.org) to contain documents written to a template I wrote a long time ago: "http://www.jxh.com/jxhc/ops-if/characteristics.html". Someone once said you should write things so a trained monkey can follow along and fix things. This is important because, after six months, you _are_ a trained monkey even at your own site. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 10:52:59 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GIqxT01479 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:52:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from napalm.explosive.net (napalm.explosive.net [205.158.174.195]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GIqvf01475 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from spampd.explosive.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.explosive.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BAD72815E; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from napalm.explosive.net (napalm.explosive.net [205.158.174.195]) by napalm.explosive.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFAE82815E; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:52:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:52:56 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Sorenson To: Bruce Hamilton Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115225105.03b9f220@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.3 required=6.5 tests=CARRIAGE_RETURNS,IN_REP_TO,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT_PINE version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, Bruce Hamilton wrote: > * What would be a better term than "administrative domain" for "the stuff > one person admins"? It typically would include multiple subnets and may or > may not correspond to a DNS domain. Bailiwick? 'Domain' is *way* overloaded. NOUN: 1. A person's specific area of interest, skill, or authority. See synonyms at field. 2. The office or district of a bailiff. ETYMOLOGY: Middle English bailliwik : baillif, bailiff; see bailiff + wik, town (from Old English wc, from Latin vcus; see vicinity). [ http://www.bartleby.com/61/1/B0030100.html ] -- Eric Sorenson - EXPLOSIVE Networking - http://explosive.net From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 11:02:25 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GJ2Om01893 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:02:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from imbrium.extragalactic.net (ip-216-36-75-206.dsl.sjc.megapath.net [216.36.75.206]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GJ2Nf01889 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:02:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from extragalactic.net (crisium.extragalactic.net [192.168.1.101]) by imbrium.extragalactic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h0GJ2MO7025439 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:02:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:02:31 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: [SAGE] NetApp--spindles vs. performance From: "Guy B. Purcell" To: sage-members@sage.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <10471F8F-2985-11D7-875D-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I'm posting this for a friend, whom I hope to be working with very soon :^) He's specing out a NetApp filer (F810, I believe), and would like to know if anyone has any real experience with (or even well-educated guesses about) the performance gain of using 36 GB disks instead of 72 GB disks. The intended use will be about 50/50 for typical PC office-type files & Oracle DBs. He needs to balance maximizing performance against minimizing cost. Using 36 GB disks costs more (need twice as many disks to achieve the 1 TB storage goal), but that might be offset by significant performance gains from having twice as many spindles. Are there rules of thumb for this sort of thing in general? There must be some point of diminishing returns with shrinking disk size to increase spindle count (would that I had a system to experiment with!). Thanks! -- Guy (guy@extragalactic.net) Sysadmin for hire From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 11:13:30 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GJDU502270 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:13:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ace.DELOS.COM (ace.DELOS.COM [192.65.171.163]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GJDTf02265 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:13:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kolstad@localhost) by ace.DELOS.COM (8.10.1/8.10.1) id h0GJDB128072; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:13:11 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:13:11 -0700 (MST) From: Rob Kolstad Message-Id: <200301161913.h0GJDB128072@ace.DELOS.COM> To: bhami@pobox.com, eric@explosive.net Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates Cc: sage-members@sage.org X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk milieu: mi.lieu \me-l-'y*(r), -'yu:; me--lyo-e-\ n [F, fr. OF, midst, fr. mi middle (fr. L medius) + lieu place, fr. L locus] : ENVIRONMENT, SETTING RK ====================================================================== * /\ Rob Kolstad Executive Director, SAGE * /\ / \ kolstad@sage.org FAX: +1 719-481-6551 /\/ \/ \ +1 719-481-6542 15235 Roller Coaster Road / \ / \ http://www.sage.org Colorado Springs, CO 80921 ====================================================================== From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 11:18:11 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GJIBf02570 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:18:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.22]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GJIAf02566 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:18:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.200.36] (nat64.mirapoint.com [63.107.133.64]) by m1.imap-partners.net (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id ABC14358; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:18:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:18:03 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Rob Kolstad cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates Message-ID: <20370000.1042744683@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <200301161913.h0GJDB128072@ace.DELOS.COM> References: <200301161913.h0GJDB128072@ace.DELOS.COM> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Corral? Pen? Cell? > milieu: Seriously, I also use the term "administrative domain" to mean such a political division within a company. I think it's too late to save "domain". From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 11:26:47 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GJQlm02875 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:26:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from imbrium.extragalactic.net (ip-216-36-75-206.dsl.sjc.megapath.net [216.36.75.206]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GJQjf02871 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:26:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from extragalactic.net (crisium.extragalactic.net [192.168.1.101]) by imbrium.extragalactic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h0GJQdO7025509; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:26:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:26:48 -0800 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: sage-members@sage.org To: Bruce Hamilton From: "Guy B. Purcell" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115225105.03b9f220@mail.earthlink.net> Message-Id: <74FE19E5-2988-11D7-875D-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 11:31 PM, Bruce Hamilton wrote: > My department, which has nearly 20 Unix sys admins running about as > many distinct administrative domains*, needs to put together some sort > of "run book" documentation so that any admin can come quickly up to > speed in any other admin's domain. The first company I worked for used work instructions for detailing how things were done. I liked 'em a lot; however, they got to be a bit of a pain for experienced admins, who'd sometimes gloss over steps because there were too details & the admins "already knew the procedure." But since our WIs were in HTML, an idea was later hatched to give 'em depth, with the initial page for a particular task just outlining the procedure for the experiences admins, but containing links to detailed (to the point of having copy/paste-able steps!) instructions so that new admins would know exactly what to do. The bonus of this is that any experienced admin can bang out some part of a WI in little time--just get the outline ready, or add the details page for step X in procedure Y. -- Guy (guy@extragalactic.net) Sysadmin for hire From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 11:31:18 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GJVIP03180 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:31:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from imbrium.extragalactic.net (ip-216-36-75-206.dsl.sjc.megapath.net [216.36.75.206]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GJVGf03176 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:31:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from extragalactic.net (crisium.extragalactic.net [192.168.1.101]) by imbrium.extragalactic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h0GJVBO7025523; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:31:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:31:20 -0800 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: Rob Kolstad , sage-members@sage.org To: Jim Hickstein From: "Guy B. Purcell" In-Reply-To: <20370000.1042744683@jxh.mirapoint.com> Message-Id: <173FCFB7-2989-11D7-875D-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 11:18 AM, Jim Hickstein wrote: > Corral? Pen? Cell? > >> milieu: > > Seriously, I also use the term "administrative domain" to mean such a > political division within a company. I think it's too late to save > "domain". I like jurisdiction--sounds, well, authoritative :^) -- Guy (guy@extragalactic.net) Sysadmin for hire From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 11:36:08 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GJa8S03483 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from oasis.rad.upenn.edu (OASIS.RAD.UPENN.EDU [165.123.246.19]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GJa6f03479 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from rad.upenn.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by oasis.rad.upenn.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16840; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:36:03 -0500 Received: from rad.upenn.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by oasis.rad.upenn.edu with ESMTP (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA16840; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:36:03 -0500 Message-ID: <3E27097B.3000209@rad.upenn.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:35:23 -0500 From: Eric Mercer Organization: UPHS, Radiology User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020918 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Hickstein CC: Rob Kolstad , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates References: <200301161913.h0GJDB128072@ace.DELOS.COM> <20370000.1042744683@jxh.mirapoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk How about "Administrative Dominion". It has a nice BOFH feel ;-) You could also call it an "administrative territory". I doubt anything works better than "domain". Maybe that's why everyone uses it for everything. We could start using "AD". Jim Hickstein wrote: > Corral? Pen? Cell? > >> milieu: > > > Seriously, I also use the term "administrative domain" to mean such a > political division within a company. I think it's too late to save > "domain". From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 12:13:53 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GKDrO04729 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:13:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.anim.dreamworks.com (garm.dreamworks.com [64.173.252.34]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GKDpf04725 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:13:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from anim.dreamworks.com (guppy.anim.dreamworks.com [192.168.1.247]) by postal.anim.dreamworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h0GKDd316102; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:13:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3E271273.70802@anim.dreamworks.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:13:39 -0800 From: Skottie Miller Organization: Dreamworks Feature Animation User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Guy B. Purcell" CC: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] NetApp--spindles vs. performance References: <10471F8F-2985-11D7-875D-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk These days, with 10K RPM disks, as long as there are "enough" spindles, the potential difference between N 72G disks and N*2 36 GB disks on a filer doesn't really affect performance. the number of FC loops, the number of GigE conenctions, the cache size and the CPU and (of course) your workload, will tell. as for a rule of thumb, with 72 GB disks I try for raid group sizes of 9 spindles. to get 1 TB usable, you'll need at least 16 spindles, which means two ds14 disk shelves. with two 9-disk raid groups and a hot spare, (19) disks, there will be room to add spindles to the shelves. get two Fiberchannel adapters, or one dual-port FC adapter, to provide two FC loops. an 810 with two FC loops and 18 active disks will run out of CPU *long* before it runs out of spindle ops. -skottie Guy B. Purcell wrote: > I'm posting this for a friend, whom I hope to be working with very soon :^) > > He's specing out a NetApp filer (F810, I believe), and would like to > know if anyone has any real experience with (or even well-educated > guesses about) the performance gain of using 36 GB disks instead of 72 > GB disks. The intended use will be about 50/50 for typical PC > office-type files & Oracle DBs. > > He needs to balance maximizing performance against minimizing cost. > Using 36 GB disks costs more (need twice as many disks to achieve the 1 > TB storage goal), but that might be offset by significant performance > gains from having twice as many spindles. Are there rules of thumb for > this sort of thing in general? There must be some point of diminishing > returns with shrinking disk size to increase spindle count (would that I > had a system to experiment with!). Thanks! > > -- > Guy > (guy@extragalactic.net) > > Sysadmin for hire > > -- Scott Miller | Animation Technology work: skottie@dreamworks.com | Dreamworks Feature Animation life: skottie@pobox.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 12:26:15 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GKQFE05075 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:26:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from Eng.Auburn.EDU (dns.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.10.13]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GKQDf05071 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:26:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from goodall.eng.auburn.edu (goodall.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.12.5]) by Eng.Auburn.EDU (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h0GKQ7q0009370; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:26:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by goodall.eng.auburn.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.6.4) with ESMTP id OAA09738; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:26:05 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: goodall.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:26:04 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: Skottie Miller cc: "Guy B. Purcell" , Subject: Re: [SAGE] NetApp--spindles vs. performance In-Reply-To: <3E271273.70802@anim.dreamworks.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Skottie Miller wrote: > > These days, with 10K RPM disks, as long as there are "enough" spindles, > the potential difference between N 72G disks and N*2 36 GB disks on > a filer doesn't really affect performance. > > the number of FC loops, the number of GigE conenctions, the cache size > and the CPU and (of course) your workload, will tell. > > as for a rule of thumb, with 72 GB disks I try for raid group sizes of > 9 spindles. to get 1 TB usable, you'll need at least 16 spindles, > which means two ds14 disk shelves. with two 9-disk raid groups and > a hot spare, (19) disks, there will be room to add spindles to the shelves. > > get two Fiberchannel adapters, or one dual-port FC adapter, to provide > two FC loops. > > an 810 with two FC loops and 18 active disks will run out of CPU *long* > before it runs out of spindle ops. > To add a little bit more to the mix: it really depends.. If you are going for max IOPS, then more spindles really will help (like a TPC setup). If it's a typical oracle sequential database, then fewer spindles is fine (or better!). Maximizing IOPS is all about more spindles because you never fill the controllers. Then again, I haven't done any IOPS workloads on a NetApp.. Wide thin striping is another good use of technology to take maximum advantage of performance while minimizing administrative overhead. (http://www.sun.com/solutions/blueprints/1000/layout.pdf) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 12:53:20 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GKrJO05536 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.22]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GKrIf05532 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:53:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.200.36] (nat64.mirapoint.com [63.107.133.64]) by m1.imap-partners.net (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id ABC15001; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:53:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:53:15 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: "Guy B. Purcell" cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates Message-ID: <26970000.1042750395@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <74FE19E5-2988-11D7-875D-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> References: <74FE19E5-2988-11D7-875D-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > The first company I worked for used work instructions for detailing how > things were done. If that was where I think you mean: That was due to my and Hal Pomeranz's thinking about this. I had recently come from a company that was heavily into TQM, and the software group I worked in was undergoing ISO-9001 certification just then. I adopted the term "work instruction" from the ISO-9000 universe. We were thinking of going for ISO-9001 ourselves, in the sysadmin organization at the new outfit, but somehow didn't get around to it. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 13:32:05 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0GLW5Q06210 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:32:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mdahub.mda.ca (mdahub.mda.ca [142.73.130.152]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0GLW3f06206 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:32:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from msxyvr2.mda.ca (msxyvr2 [142.73.131.26]) by mdahub.mda.ca (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id h0GLSc210237 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by msxyvr2.mda.ca with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:32:01 -0800 Message-ID: <367C011C07C1EE4B90C684299E10901F0FF35A@exchange.mda.ca> From: John LLOYD To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:31:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > If that was where I think you mean: That was due to my and > Hal Pomeranz's > thinking about this. I had recently come from a company that > was heavily > into TQM, and the software group I worked in was undergoing ISO-9001 > certification just then. I adopted the term "work > instruction" from the > ISO-9000 universe. > > We were thinking of going for ISO-9001 ourselves, in the sysadmin > organization at the new outfit, but somehow didn't get around to it. > ISO9k is harder to apply to operations groups, as compared to, say, manufacturers. It is not impossible, of course. The chief advantage to it is that it is widely recognized. The chief disadvantage is that it doesn't really help you. ISO 9k certification means that you have documented procedures and that you can prove to an auditor that you follow them. Our department is ISO certified and our procedures include a lot of steps that read "evaluate the situation and do the right thing" [I paraphrase, of course.] Getting the procedures written down was the hard part and it was useful. The critical concept is to document what people actually do and not try to optimize or define what they ought to be doing. ISO 9000 didn't help to improve our operation, only to codify it. However, for a group that has a lot of undocumented procedures, undocumented systems, concerns about diverse configurations and (unstated) concerns about unmanaged risks, ISO 9000 is not a solution but perhaps a definition of an end point. I would suggest going back to basics: What is the real problem? Is it concern about risks? Is it concern about possibly excessive costs? Is it concern about quality? Risks can be understood by identifying them and mitigating them (I am using a system engineering definition of risk, not a financial or informal one. See http://www.riskworld.com/BOOKS/topics/risksoft.htm for a list of books on the topic. I recommend the Karolak book.). On the other hand, if quality is your concern, then you could try a "top-down" re-engineering approach. If you had to build the systems from scratch, how would you do it and what would you get in the end? The short answer is two things: a set of working systems and a set of documents that describe them: what they are for, what they consist of, how they were built, how to operate them, and how to maintain and modify them. In short, the requirements, the system design, the detailed design, operations guide, and maintenance/support book. At the end you have a set of systems and software that provide your customers with exactly what they want, ie. a high quality system. --John From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 16 21:50:26 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0H5oPX10374 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:50:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtprelay2.dc3.adelphia.net (smtprelay2.dc3.adelphia.net [24.50.78.5]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0H5oOf10370 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:50:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from bob.pobox.com ([68.68.205.68]) by smtprelay2.dc3.adelphia.net (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H8UG7Z00.L01; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 00:50:23 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030116214442.037106a0@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: bhami@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:50:50 -0800 To: "Andrews, Martin" , "'Quentin Fennessy'" From: Bruce Hamilton Subject: RE: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates Cc: sage-members@sage.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I agree that there is usually lots of mindless, productivity-reducing variation in any large environment, which can often be mitigated by common standards. But at the same time, some local differences may be unavoidable. E.g. I work for a government contractor where each new program typically comes down with non-negotiables of the form "you will use this hardware/software" or "you will interoperate with these existing prime or subcontractors". --Bruce (Bruce Hamilton, Redondo Beach, CA) bhami@pobox.com http://bhami.com/ At 11:47 AM 1/16/03 -0500, Andrews, Martin wrote: >Quentin, > >I am facing a similar situation to Bruce: several sites each being >administered independently. My initial bias as we start to collect >documentation on various practices is the same as yours - it is easier to >standardize than document (and maintain) the differences. Still, a standard >template for key IT procedures and architecture would be useful. Even with >one "right" way you would need to fill out the template once - and I expect >it will be useful to survey the various sites for their current >configuration when you try to determine what the "right" way is. So I am >still eager for a template. > >Martin >---- >Martin Andrews >martin.andrews@lionbioscience.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 17 02:21:25 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0HALPa12279 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 02:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from pop.snert.net (pop.snert.net [193.41.72.72]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0HALJf12275 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified FAIL) for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 02:21:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from snert.com ([193.41.72.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by pop.snert.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0HALH4W012461 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:21:18 +0100 Message-ID: <3E27D917.7030909@snert.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:21:11 +0100 From: Anthony Howe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030112 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Subject: [SAGE] Where to start? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I have to provide in-house tutorials on Unix (Linux) systems and their administration to our Windows sys.admins. who know nothing about Unix or its variants. The first tutorial is suppose to be some sort of overview, but I have NO IDEA where begin or what to cover. Its my hope after the first tutorial, my colleagues will provide me with more direction as to the topics I should cover. But they sort of need to see a menu of possibilities. My background is primarily programming, but I'm the only Unix person in the firm who can build, program, and administer the Linux machines, and so must train the Windows staff for our mail and web servers that are slowly replacing Windows machines. They are curious, a little unsure, and french. -- Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus "Will the real email please stand up..." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 17 03:57:48 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0HBvlJ02193 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 03:57:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from hotmail.com (f147.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.147]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0HBvkf02189 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 03:57:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 03:57:42 -0800 Received: from 199.222.167.101 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:57:42 GMT X-Originating-IP: [199.222.167.101] From: "Scott Frost" To: achowe@snert.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Where to start? Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:57:42 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jan 2003 11:57:42.0999 (UTC) FILETIME=[A4536E70:01C2BE1F] X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Anthony, O'reilly makes a great book called "Learning the UNIX operating system" (I think that's right). It has a good framework to start someone into UNIX that hasn't had any exposure. I'd start with this book as a basis becuase it uses the typical "Hello world" concept, teaches the basic commands and even a little vi ,etc. Take a look, Scott Frost >From: Anthony Howe >To: SAGE Members >Subject: [SAGE] Where to start? >Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:21:11 +0100 > >I have to provide in-house tutorials on Unix (Linux) systems and their >administration to our Windows sys.admins. who know nothing about Unix or >its variants. > >The first tutorial is suppose to be some sort of overview, but I have NO >IDEA where begin or what to cover. Its my hope after the first tutorial, my >colleagues will provide me with more direction as to the topics I should >cover. But they sort of need to see a menu of possibilities. > >My background is primarily programming, but I'm the only Unix person in the >firm who can build, program, and administer the Linux machines, and so must >train the Windows staff for our mail and web servers that are slowly >replacing Windows machines. > >They are curious, a little unsure, and french. > >-- >Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 >http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus >"Will the real email please stand up..." _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 17 04:12:19 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0HCCIT02506 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 04:12:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from slicker.dcs.gla.ac.uk (slicker.dcs.gla.ac.uk [130.209.242.51]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0HCCGf02502 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 04:12:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from partain@localhost) by slicker.dcs.gla.ac.uk (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id MAA29250; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:12:11 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: slicker.dcs.gla.ac.uk: partain set sender to partain@dcs.gla.ac.uk using -f To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115225105.03b9f220@mail.earthlink.net> From: Will Partain Date: 17 Jan 2003 12:12:11 +0000 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115225105.03b9f220@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Lines: 43 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Military Intelligence) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Bruce Hamilton writes: > My department, which has nearly 20 Unix sys admins running about as > many distinct administrative domains*, needs to put together some sort > of "run book" documentation so that any admin can come quickly up to > speed in any other admin's domain. > > We need standards and templates that are comprehensive but that at the > same time can be broken into manageable chunks so that a sys admin > with an hour here or there can produce something useful toward the > goal. The Arusha Project (ARK) [http://ark.sourceforge.net/], for which I am a developer, is a framework [*] for a "collaborative sysadmin's log book" and is intended to address the kind of situation you describe. For example, you might declare the existence of an ARK "team" for each administrative domain, perhaps 'email', 'firewalls', and 'tools'. Then you would add a 'common' team, for shared stuff. The 'tools' people could then describe how/when they (say) reboot a host in tools/host/reboot.xml which would have as a "prototype" (base class?) common/host/reboot.xml The strategy I would have would be to decrease what's in 'tools', 'email', and 'firewalls', and increase what's in 'common'. For more info, see the web site; our LISA 2001 paper is available via http://ark.sourceforge.net/papers-and-talks.html (Or just ask.) Will [*] framework - it doesn't do what you want, but it might help in that direction :-) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 17 04:43:39 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0HChcQ02856 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 04:43:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from benyaka.woup.net (benyaka.woup.net [62.4.18.115]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0HChXf02852 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 04:43:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from trantor ([192.168.1.1]) by benyaka.woup.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 18ZVlL-0000pa-00 for SAGE-members@USENIX.ORG; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:38:19 +0100 Subject: [SAGE] Backup Software and execute commands to multiple systems From: Nicolas Dorfsman To: SAGE-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0.2-5mdk Date: 17 Jan 2003 13:38:19 +0100 Message-Id: <1042807099.2835.51.camel@trantor> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id h0HChbf02853 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I'm currently lookink for two things. 1) In term of backup, I need to setup something able to backup 10 Linux boxes onto a server with two options : 1) backup on disk and then backup disks to tape-loader 2) backup directly to tape-loader. Amanda seems to have many of capabilities I'm looking for...except backup to multi-volume. So my first idea is to use amanda to do the disk-backup, and then use cpio or another tool to throw disk data to tapes. Could you give me your feeling on Amanda and suggest tools useful to achieve the goal (option 1 or 2) ? 2) I need to execute commands on multiple Linux systems. I found remote_update on GNU web. I'd like to have some point of wiews on it and maybe other piece of software doing the same task. TIA -- ------------------------------ | Nicolas Dorfsman | | Expert UNIX | | | | Tél: 06.7981.4486 | | Fax: 06.7981.4485 | | mailto:ndo@unikservice.com | | http://www.unikservice.com | ------------------------------ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 17 05:02:37 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0HD2b603173 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 05:02:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eecs.harvard.edu (postfix@bowser.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.24]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0HD2Af03168 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 05:02:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.eecs.harvard.edu (Postfix, from userid 32284) id 3D71454C9D6; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:01:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.eecs.harvard.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD5D54C9D3; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:01:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:01:41 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris To: Anthony Howe Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Where to start? In-Reply-To: <3E27D917.7030909@snert.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Anthony Howe writes: > I have to provide in-house tutorials on Unix (Linux) systems and > their administration to our Windows sys.admins. who know nothing > about Unix or its variants. > [...] A few thoughts as someone who has a fair bit of experience teaching such topics... - Beg, borrow or steal a projector, if you don't already have one, and make the sessions demos. Static slides will be nearly ineffectual for newcomers. - If you use slides, use them as overviews, illustrations, and organizational tools. Don't put any commands or code on them, as this will cause your students (especially since their command of English is apparently not 100%) to spend their time copying down notes instead of paying attention to the concepts discussed. - *Do* include commands, file structures, and the like in handouts. Pass them out before class so that the students will understand they don't need to take notes. A student taking notes is a student not letting concepts sink in and not asking questions. - If you can think fast on your feet, use likely tasks these admins will face as points of departure. Use the process of gaining administrative rights (su or sudo) as an introduction to the concepts of UID and the Unix superuser. Use ps as an example of process heirarchy (which can naturally, through init, lead to the boot process), and use 'ps | grep' as an illustration of pipelining. - Again, if you can think fast on your feet, structure the classes with no set points to cover. Instead, think of a few topics you'd like to hit and leave plenty of time for students' questions to lead you off in other directions. This works especially well for second, third, and successive classes, as the students try out what you showed them in earlier classes and make discoveries on their own which they want to talk about. - If your students are shy or bored, elicit responses from them. First tactic, ask the whole class a question: "Can anyone see something strange in this output?" If you get no response, start picking on individuals. "Claude, why do you think this column here is twice as big as that one there?" Get your students used to the class being interactive. If certain students are always silent, single them out a few times to see if they get what you're covering. If they don't, shower them with attention until they become more talkative. If they're following along okay, leave them alone--they probably are just quiet types and will only be embarassed if you pick on them. - Use real systems, not sanitized examples. If you show a root directory with just /bin, /usr, /var, /dev, /home and /etc, your students will be befuddled and panicked when they login to their own systems and see /lost+found, /SomeRandomDirectorySomeoneLeftBehind, etc. - Concentrate on the method behind the madness. Unix is *not* a system of magical incantations, at least not in the forms beginners see it. It is one of the most cohesive, understandable operating systems out there. Introduce files, devices, UIDs, processes, scheduling, filesystems, and all the other high-level concepts early, and relate everything from there on in terms of them. - Break the rules to show them how things really work. Create a user named "guest", UID 0, and show them what you can do with that user, and they will never forget that the name "root" is just convention, not magical. Add a port to /etc/services, then attach that port to bash via inetd.conf, and telnet into it, and watch your students suddenly "get" how things connect together. A good junior Unix admin knows what commands do what. A very good junior Unix admin, one well on his way to becoming a more senior one, knows *how* they do it and what the edge cases and limitations imposed by the operating system are. - If someone asks a question about a command, option, etc., don't answer it directly--pull up the manpage and show them how to find the answer for themselves. - I don't know the scope of this class, but if it's more than six hours, I'd strongly recommend working scripting into it. Perl, Python, or shell, whatever you're most comfortable teaching, but some scripting language will vastly increase the toolset your students have access to. You don't have to go into detail, but just showing them "type commands like *this*, then chmod +x the file like *this*, then run it like *this*" will get your students over a big psychological hurdle. If you choose Perl or Python, use it as a vehicle to demonstrate important low-level OS concepts, like fork/exec, that aren't readily grasped just working with the shell. - It's completely okay to show a few magical incantations *so long as the students don't need to master them*. For instance, you can show the fork/exec example in Perl without having to explain that a parent gets a PID return, a child gets 0; just tell them that's magic and they don't need to worry about it. But if it's something your students are going to have to type, you have to able to explain it, even if it's just by analogy. - Blow up your system in realtime. Pull the network plug, start a fork bomb, eat up all your memory, even pull a running disk, to show the edge cases. An admin who has seen something before is an order of magnitude more effective. I could go on, but I've already taken up too much space. :-) Trey -- I'm looking for work. If you need a SAGE Level IV with 10 years Perl, tool development, training, and architecture experience, please email me at trey@sage.org. I'm willing to relocate for the right opportunity. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 17 05:34:21 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0HDYLs03521 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 05:34:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0HDYJf03516 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 05:34:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from user-0c93h9r.cable.mindspring.com ([24.145.197.59] helo=starfury) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ZWdN-0004hI-00; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 05:34:09 -0800 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Where to start? From: Mark McCullough To: Anthony Howe Cc: SAGE Members In-Reply-To: <3E27D917.7030909@snert.com> References: <3E27D917.7030909@snert.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-uOBl5Whjs6507OA6Mywc" X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 (1.0.8-10) Date: 17 Jan 2003 07:43:24 -0600 Message-Id: <1042811006.10928.23.camel@starfury> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --=-uOBl5Whjs6507OA6Mywc Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2003-01-17 at 04:21, Anthony Howe wrote: > I have to provide in-house tutorials on Unix (Linux) systems and=20 > their administration to our Windows sys.admins. who know nothing=20 > about Unix or its variants. >=20 > The first tutorial is suppose to be some sort of overview, but I=20 > have NO IDEA where begin or what to cover. Its my hope after the=20 > first tutorial, my colleagues will provide me with more direction=20 > as to the topics I should cover. But they sort of need to see a=20 > menu of possibilities. >=20 > My background is primarily programming, but I'm the only Unix=20 > person in the firm who can build, program, and administer the=20 > Linux machines, and so must train the Windows staff for our mail=20 > and web servers that are slowly replacing Windows machines. >=20 > They are curious, a little unsure, and french. Teach the philosophy of UNIX. When I had to teach a similar topic for users, one thing I realized was that Windows comes with a certain philosophy/approach to the OS. VMS has another one, and UNIX a third.=20 The UNIX approach of "lots of small commands that do one thing well that can be combined with other commands" really can be foreign to someone used to the VMS "set" command. Spend some time on that, as it makes how everything links in together easier to understand. Build a cheat sheet of common user commands which has a brief description of what they do in *your* words. Tailor it to stuff that you see used a lot. If people aren't using awk, don't mention it. Start with how Windows approaches a topic, then explain how UNIX differs. There was a very good book "UNIX Administration for VMS Admins" (or something like that), which I as a UNIX Admin was able to use to learn some VMS admin because it highlighted key differences not just in commands, but in the fundamental concepts. Keep your goals small. Don't expect to cover a huge amount of material each session, or you may face a completely zoned out audience. More important than slides handed out can be a practical pamphlet that the users can use, even if it is initially just their cookbook. One=20 UNIX SA I know, started out with no UNIX experience, just experience in some SA concepts, but he built up an effective cookbook of recipes of how to respond to individual situations. As he gained experience, he needed the cookbook less and less. They may not know the key books. Tell them what books they should consider obtaining in your opinion. --=20 mmccul@earthlink.net Mark McCullough "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that=20 we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only=20 unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American=20 public." (Theodore Roosevelt, 1918) --=-uOBl5Whjs6507OA6Mywc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQA+KAh8Lt0nxEAuAy8RAlLdAJoCt/M8KykLpnZOO/F8eNESjhpMEACfc2fR EiXeysjzM/8qvoTRecnIkz4= =3Taa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-uOBl5Whjs6507OA6Mywc-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 17 05:38:11 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0HDcAp03746 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 05:38:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-green.research.att.com (H-135-207-30-103.research.att.com [135.207.30.103]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0HDc8f03741 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 05:38:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from bigmail.research.att.com (bigmail.research.att.com [135.207.30.101]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13EB11E4A8 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:38:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com ([135.207.39.165]) by bigmail.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h0HDbtO12878 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:37:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3E28073A.9000506@research.att.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:38:02 -0500 From: Andrew Hume User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: sage-members-digest V2 #1042 References: <200301171000.h0HA02P12140@usenix.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk in an environment where you expect more-or-less random access patterns, more spindles will be better. the exact benefit is in the actual observed disk access behaviour. i observe that there is a very healthy market for smaller disks (9GB and 18GB) for exactly this reason. as for administrative domain synonyms, i would recommend 1) precinct 2) ward 3) satrapy the last is obsolete, but has some historical baggage (satraps where persian functionaries known for being despotic) that may or may not fit your situation. -- Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and SAGE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 17 07:13:58 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0HFDwJ04627 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:13:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.10]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0HFDuf04622 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:13:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.253.64.63] (murmer.cit.cornell.edu [128.253.64.63]) by postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10992 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:13:55 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: tco2@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1042811006.10928.23.camel@starfury> References: <3E27D917.7030909@snert.com> <1042811006.10928.23.camel@starfury> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:15:23 -0500 To: SAGE Members From: Todd Olson Subject: Re: [SAGE] Where to start? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi At 07:43 -0600 2003/01/17, Mark McCullough wrote: >On Fri, 2003-01-17 at 04:21, Anthony Howe wrote: >> I have to provide in-house tutorials on Unix (Linux) systems and >> their administration to our Windows sys.admins. who know nothing >> about Unix or its variants. > > > > The first tutorial is suppose to be some sort of overview, but I >> have NO IDEA where begin or what to cover. Its my hope after the >> first tutorial, my colleagues will provide me with more direction >> as to the topics I should cover. But they sort of need to see a > > menu of possibilities. > >Teach the philosophy of UNIX. A helpful refresher, and source of insight for the instructor might be the book The Unix Philosophy Mike Gancarz I don't know if this would be of any help to the students or not. Amazon notes that there is a forth coming book by Gancarz entitled Linux and Unix Philosophy Also helpful for the instructor to remind of explicit ideas in Unix are the ideas embedded in Software Tools Kernighan and Plauger Regards, Todd Olson Cornell University From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 17 07:27:10 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0HFRA704927 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:27:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoemail1.firewall.lucent.com (hoemail1.lucent.com [192.11.226.161]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0HFR1f04923 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:27:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpo.casc.com (h152-148-10-6.lucent.com [152.148.10.6]) by hoemail1.firewall.lucent.com (Switch-2.2.2/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h0HFQoa21295; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:26:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from sekrit.casc.com (sekrit [152.148.200.85]) by alpo.casc.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA02504; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:26:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from stoffel@localhost) by sekrit.casc.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) id h0HFQn806063; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:26:49 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15912.8377.853637.347879@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:26:49 -0500 From: "John Stoffel" To: "Guy B. Purcell" Cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] NetApp--spindles vs. performance In-Reply-To: <10471F8F-2985-11D7-875D-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> References: <10471F8F-2985-11D7-875D-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under Emacs 20.6.1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Guy> He's specing out a NetApp filer (F810, I believe), and would like Guy> to know if anyone has any real experience with (or even Guy> well-educated guesses about) the performance gain of using 36 GB Guy> disks instead of 72 GB disks. The intended use will be about Guy> 50/50 for typical PC office-type files & Oracle DBs. Well, the office files won't be the bottle neck in this case. It all depends on how fast the Oracle DB needs to be. Remember, the NetApps have battery backed NVRAM (so writes can be acknowledged before they get to disk), and the newer NetApps have a fairly large amount of memory for caching disks reads/writes. You also want to think about whether you need to have multiple volumes or not. For the PC data, a smaller group of larger disks will work just fine. For the oracle data, a larger number of smaller disks will probably help out a bit, but maybe not. The NetApps have quite a good performance without much tuning out of the box. Guy> He needs to balance maximizing performance against minimizing Guy> cost. Using 36 GB disks costs more (need twice as many disks to Guy> achieve the 1 TB storage goal), but that might be offset by Guy> significant performance gains from having twice as many spindles. Guy> Are there rules of thumb for this sort of thing in general? Guy> There must be some point of diminishing returns with shrinking Guy> disk size to increase spindle count (would that I had a system to Guy> experiment with!). Thanks! There's also an issue where if you have too many spindles on a single path (or controller), then you won't get any further performance increase since the path is saturated. So if he's really worried about performance, getting two disk shelves with a Fiber Channel controller for each shelf should be fine. Then there's the question of how to organize the data. I personally don't like to use multiple volumes if I can help it, since it makes growing/shrinking storage availability a pain. qtrees are a great way to give people a chunk of disk space, but to limit how much they can use. If they need more, you just change a number in a file and resize the quota. Plus you get to share snapshot overhead across multiple groups/sets of data. But Oracle Databases don't want to be snapshotted except when you *know* the DB is locked or in hotbackup mode. So for your case, I'd probably do the following setup: NetApp 810 (or even look at used F760s with the appropriate licenses) - pair of FiberChannel controllers - gigait ethernet - pair of DS14 disk shelves, one with 72gb disks, the other with 18 or 36gb. - CIFS and NFS licenses. I'd setup one volume as the root (vol0) where the PC data would live. This would be put on the 72gb disks. You would have snapshots turned on here, with a useful schedule for your needs, along with qtrees to manage your user's data needs. Make sure to leave a spare disk. Then make another volume called 'oracle' out of the smaller disks. Turn off automatic snapshots, but use them for nightly backups when scripted. Make sure to leave a spare disk here as well. In general, I'd have your friend join the toasters mailing list for a place to ask more detailed questions about setup and tuning of systems like this. John John Stoffel - Senior Unix Systems Administrator - Lucent Technologies stoffel@lucent.com - http://www.lucent.com - 978-399-0479 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 17 09:10:16 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0HHAF606014 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:10:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [205.217.153.22]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0HHAEf06010 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.200.36] (nat64.mirapoint.com [63.107.133.64]) by m1.imap-partners.net (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id ABC20613 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:10:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:10:12 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Security tokens Message-ID: <10280000.1042823412@jxh.mirapoint.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk OK, so I need to stop allowing reusable password authentication for certain systems. Years ago I got hold of some tokens for around $100 each and rolled my own server; SecureID wanted ten grand just for the server software, which made my unofficial experiment impossible, even for a start. Lately I'm starting to talk to ActivCard, having evaluated them in the past. Their server (no price yet) runs on Solaris, but requires Oracle (!?) to talk to; administration of the authentication database requires Windows; and I haven't really studied client integration yet. This will be for Windows, Mac, and UNIX users (FreeBSD, Linux) hitting my inward SSH and VPN servers and a few web servers and maybe Citrix. What's the most open-standards-friendly of the several commercial systems? (I know about S/Key and Opie, but these don't strike me as suitable for non-sysadmins to use.) Which one has the best integration with LDAP and PAM and RADIUS and that sort of thing? Which one works even if there is no Microsoft product anywhere in sight, yet supports end users on Windows? I just might come up with the ten grand this time, if it would buy me exactly what I want. But entirely free (open source) would be fine. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 17 09:23:37 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0HHNbq06334 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:23:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from malibu.cc.uga.edu (malibu.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.103]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0HHNZf06329 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:23:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from archa9.cc.uga.edu (128.192.95.109) by malibu.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.005E3D11@malibu.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:23:34 -0500 Received: from stats.arches.uga.edu (stats.arches.uga.edu [128.192.95.123]) by archa9.cc.uga.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA127094; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:21:40 -0500 Received: from localhost (rilke@localhost) by stats.arches.uga.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA151314; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:21:40 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: stats.arches.uga.edu: rilke owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:21:40 -0500 (EST) From: rilke To: Anthony Howe cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Where to start? In-Reply-To: <3E27D917.7030909@snert.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk My two cents: Think Unix, by Jon Lasser. It's what I recommend to all my curious friends and clients. It's a very intelligent treatment. Most likely a 2-3 week runthrough the first 4 chapters would be the ticket. --Trey On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Anthony Howe wrote: > I have to provide in-house tutorials on Unix (Linux) systems and > their administration to our Windows sys.admins. who know nothing > about Unix or its variants. > > The first tutorial is suppose to be some sort of overview, but I > have NO IDEA where begin or what to cover. Its my hope after the > first tutorial, my colleagues will provide me with more direction > as to the topics I should cover. But they sort of need to see a > menu of possibilities. > > My background is primarily programming, but I'm the only Unix > person in the firm who can build, program, and administer the > Linux machines, and so must train the Windows staff for our mail > and web servers that are slowly replacing Windows machines. > > They are curious, a little unsure, and french. > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 17 11:28:36 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0HJSaa07788 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from pop.snert.net (pop.snert.net [193.41.72.72]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0HJSTf07784 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified FAIL) for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:28:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from snert.com (ppp1333-cwdsl.fr.cw.net [62.210.117.56]) (authenticated bits=0) by pop.snert.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0HJSP4W021070 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:28:28 +0100 Message-ID: <3E285958.1040000@snert.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:28:24 +0100 From: Anthony Howe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030112 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Where to start? References: <3E27D917.7030909@snert.com> <1042811006.10928.23.camel@starfury> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>Teach the philosophy of UNIX. > A helpful refresher, and source of insight for the instructor might be the book > The Unix Philosophy > Mike Gancarz > I don't know if this would be of any help to the students or not. The problem with books are that my audience are french and reading in english is an effort (I know cause I hate reading in french) and anything more than a few pages and they'll loose interest. > Also helpful for the instructor to remind of explicit ideas in Unix > are the ideas embedded in > Software Tools > Kernighan and Plauger I have this book and a few others. This is of interest to programmers than sys.admins. My audience has little or no interest in programming beyond ASP and PHP for web sites. I seriously doubt they'll ever write a Ruby or Perl script, even though they've seen what I can do with them when they bring me a problem. What I'm looking for are more concret topics that would interest to busy Windows sys.admins. trying to learn new skills or transfer existing skills to a new problem space. Essentially I have to be able to introduce or cover topics and I suppose build a "cookbook" (as someone suggested) and put many of the notes online with my PHP Q&A. Later I suspect I'll have to come back and beat them over the head again to point out things they've overlooked or update the "cookbook". My problem is I'm just not sure where to start. Several of you have all suggested good ideas from teaching technique to reference material, but if its not already in french, then I have to summarise it for them. Right now they want to know what they need to know to keep the machines running. Once they're comfortable with that they might be more inclined to branch out. -- Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus "Will the real email please stand up..." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Jan 18 10:43:06 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0IIh6j08460 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jan 2003 10:43:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from lamail01.calsb.org (64-163-172-141.calsb.org [64.163.172.141]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0IIh4f08456 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2003 10:43:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from attbi.com ([172.15.2.51]) by lamail01.calsb.org with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sat, 18 Jan 2003 10:42:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3E28D706.4010101@attbi.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:24:38 -0800 From: Gene User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20021003 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Scott Frost CC: achowe@snert.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Where to start? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jan 2003 18:42:59.0420 (UTC) FILETIME=[6C7491C0:01C2BF21] X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Scott Frost wrote: > Anthony, > O'reilly makes a great book called "Learning the UNIX operating system" > (I think that's right). It has a good framework to start someone into > UNIX that hasn't had any exposure. I'd start with this book as a basis > becuase it uses the typical "Hello world" concept, teaches the basic > commands and even a little vi ,etc. > Take a look, > > Scott Frost > > > > > > > >> From: Anthony Howe >> To: SAGE Members >> Subject: [SAGE] Where to start? >> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:21:11 +0100 >> >> I have to provide in-house tutorials on Unix (Linux) systems and their >> administration to our Windows sys.admins. who know nothing about Unix >> or its variants. >> >> The first tutorial is suppose to be some sort of overview, but I have >> NO IDEA where begin or what to cover. Its my hope after the first >> tutorial, my colleagues will provide me with more direction as to the >> topics I should cover. But they sort of need to see a menu of >> possibilities. >> >> My background is primarily programming, but I'm the only Unix person >> in the firm who can build, program, and administer the Linux machines, >> and so must train the Windows staff for our mail and web servers that >> are slowly replacing Windows machines. >> >> They are curious, a little unsure, and french. >> >> -- >> Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 >> http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus >> "Will the real email please stand up..." > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup > > here's what i did... i found beginning linux/nix courses at couple of local university, found out the professor and told him how interested i would be in his course, and ask for a class syllabus... and just followed the same outline. :) -- Gene Yoo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (GNU/Linux) iQCUAwUBPhxERRxoVYCzmrKXAQJK5gP3Y7CTsFyKpEz2p5W4GWI9+qSm+kWfdJ0R xNlma0Ma9rAL/OBJcZMo5IXyXas+3Edogbv4Al6dIf8lot1WS0Iaxxl/cg2f7gf+ otf7LfNpZDE/6OzR7A1qN6baPMLSjGzywwQWMfSVuWWb6kGQxMsA13Kn68G7Ozxs 5CODZqUPyg== =AolA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 10:20:09 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KIK9D29431 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:20:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.LuftHans.com (wsip68-14-212-29.ph.ph.cox.net [68.14.212.29]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0KIK4f29427 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:20:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.21.12.25] (helo=reiser) by smtp.LuftHans.com with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18ahD6-0005kH-00; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:03:52 -0700 Received: from reiser ([127.0.0.1] helo=localhost) by reiser with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18agVb-0007nu-00; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:18:55 -0700 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:18:55 -0700 (MST) From: "der.hans" X-X-Sender: lufthans@reiser To: Anthony Howe cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Where to start? In-Reply-To: <3E27D917.7030909@snert.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-15 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by usenix.org id h0KIK8f29428 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Am 17. Jan, 2003 schwätzte Anthony Howe so: > I have to provide in-house tutorials on Unix (Linux) systems and > their administration to our Windows sys.admins. who know nothing > about Unix or its variants. > > The first tutorial is suppose to be some sort of overview, but I > have NO IDEA where begin or what to cover. Its my hope after the > first tutorial, my colleagues will provide me with more direction > as to the topics I should cover. But they sort of need to see a > menu of possibilities. http://www.tldp.org/LDP/intro-linux/html/index.html I don't see anything about translations of the doc. Several choices from debian: http://www.debian.org/doc/ I've heard excellent things about the Mandrake docs. Mostly user stuff, but still applicable for learning Linux sys_adm. For some reason Mandrake has .fr versions available... :) http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/fdoc.php3 ciao, der.hans -- # https://www.LuftHans.com/ http://www.TOLISGroup.com/ # "The reasons for my decision to quit were myriad, but central to the # decision ws the realization that there are two kinds of companies: # Good ones ask you to think for them. # The others tell you to think like them." -- Benjy Feen From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 10:21:19 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KILJA29473 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:21:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from associates.deer-run.com (dsl-sj-167-89-225-98.broadviewnet.net [167.89.225.98]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0KILHf29469 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:21:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from deer.deer-run.com (deer.deer-run.com [10.66.1.2]) by associates.deer-run.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h0KIL0w07013 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:21:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from hal@localhost) by deer.deer-run.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id h0KIKxb07172 for sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:20:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:20:59 -0800 From: Hal Pomeranz To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] wither NAME_MAX? Message-ID: <20030120182059.GH5738@deer-run.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Now I'll be the first to admit that Perl programming has really caused my C language abilities to atrophy, but I'm perplexed... I've recently been trying to compile a small C program on my Solaris 8 system which uses the (I thought) standard NAME_MAX constant as the maximum number of chars in a file name (directory entry). I'm including both limits.h and unistd.h but getting an undefined symbol error during compilation. I'm using gcc v3.2. Did I miss a memo from a POSIX committee or something? Can somebody provide insight on what's going on? The same code compiles fine on other Unix systems I've tried. -- Hal Pomeranz, Founder/CEO Deer Run Associates hal@deer-run.com Network Connectivity and Security, Systems Management, Training From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 10:41:51 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KIfpC00071 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:41:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from yorktown.isdn.uiuc.edu (IDENT:root@yorktown.isdn.uiuc.edu [192.17.18.204]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0KIfmf00065 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:41:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from yorktown.isdn.uiuc.edu (IDENT:roth@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by yorktown.isdn.uiuc.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id h0KIfeQu010198; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:41:40 -0600 Received: (from roth@localhost) by yorktown.isdn.uiuc.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id h0KIfe63010197; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:41:40 -0600 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:41:39 -0600 From: "Mark D. Roth" To: Hal Pomeranz Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] wither NAME_MAX? Message-ID: <20030120124139.A10189@yorktown.isdn.uiuc.edu> References: <20030120182059.GH5738@deer-run.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030120182059.GH5738@deer-run.com>; from hal@deer-run.com on Mon, Jan 20, 2003 at 10:20:59AM -0800 Organization: Feep Networks X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon Jan 20 10:20 2003 -0800, Hal Pomeranz wrote: > I've recently been trying to compile a small C program on my Solaris 8 > system which uses the (I thought) standard NAME_MAX constant as the > maximum number of chars in a file name (directory entry). I'm including > both limits.h and unistd.h but getting an undefined symbol error during > compilation. I'm using gcc v3.2. > > Did I miss a memo from a POSIX committee or something? Can somebody > provide insight on what's going on? The same code compiles fine on > other Unix systems I've tried. The following comment appears in on my Solaris 8 box: /* * POSIX 1003.1a, section 2.9.5, table 2-5 contains [NAME_MAX] and the * related text states: * * A definition of one of the values from Table 2-5 shall be omitted from the * on specific implementations where the corresponding value is * equal to or greater than the stated minimum, but where the value can vary * depending on the file to which it is applied. The actual value supported for * a specific pathname shall be provided by the pathconf() (5.7.1) function. * * This is clear that any machine supporting multiple file system types * and/or a network can not include this define, regardless of protection * by the _POSIX_SOURCE and _POSIX_C_SOURCE flags. * * #define NAME_MAX 14 */ Sounds like you might want to use the value from pathconf() instead. Alternatively, if you want the maximum length of a full path name, and not just the length of the basename, you can use PATH_MAX or MAXPATHLEN. -- Mark D. Roth http://www.feep.net/~roth/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 10:42:10 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KIgAn00167 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:42:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from pop.snert.net (pop.snert.net [193.41.72.72]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0KIg4f00123 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified FAIL) for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:42:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from snert.com (ppp1418-cwdsl.fr.cw.net [62.210.117.141]) (authenticated bits=0) by pop.snert.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0KIg14W012172 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:42:02 +0100 Message-ID: <3E2C42F8.50106@snert.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:42:00 +0100 From: Anthony Howe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030112 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] wither NAME_MAX? References: <20030120182059.GH5738@deer-run.com> In-Reply-To: <20030120182059.GH5738@deer-run.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > I've recently been trying to compile a small C program on my Solaris 8 > system which uses the (I thought) standard NAME_MAX constant as the > maximum number of chars in a file name (directory entry). I'm including > both limits.h and unistd.h but getting an undefined symbol error during > compilation. I'm using gcc v3.2. 14 = _POSIX_NAME_MAX <= NAME_MAX Max. length of filename entry excluding '\0'. From IEEE Std. 1003.1b-1993, section 2.8.5 Pathname Variable Values: " The values in table 2.6 may be constants within an implementation or may vary from one pathname to another. For example, file systms or directories may have different characteristics. A defination of one of the values from table 2.6 shall be omitted from on specific implementations where the corresponding value is equal to or greater than the stated minimum, but where the value can vary depending on the file to which it is applied. The actual value supported for a specific pathname shall be provided by the pathconf() function. " -- Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus "Will the real email please stand up..." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 11:31:48 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KJVm500995 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:31:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.in.starshine.org (postfix@antares.starshine.org [216.240.40.177]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id h0KJVkf00991 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:31:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mars.starshine.org (phobos.starshine.org [216.240.40.166]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C173984; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 07:41:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mars.starshine.org (mars.starshine.org [127.0.0.1]) by mars.starshine.org (8.12.5/8.12.5/Debian-1) with ESMTP id h0KJKvDr004000; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:20:57 -0800 Received: (from jimd@localhost) by mars.starshine.org (8.12.5/8.12.5/Debian-1) id h0KJKqpE003998; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:20:52 -0800 From: Jim Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:20:52 -0800 To: Jim Hickstein Cc: sage-members@sage.org, star@starshine.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens Message-ID: <20030120192052.GJ1395@mars.starshine.org> References: <10280000.1042823412@jxh.mirapoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <10280000.1042823412@jxh.mirapoint.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jan 17, 2003 at 09:10:12AM -0800, Jim Hickstein wrote: > OK, so I need to stop allowing reusable password authentication for certain > systems. Years ago I got hold of some tokens for around $100 each and > rolled my own server; SecureID wanted ten grand just for the server > software, which made my unofficial experiment impossible, even for a start. > Lately I'm starting to talk to ActivCard, having evaluated them in the > past. Their server (no price yet) runs on Solaris, but requires Oracle > (!?) to talk to; administration of the authentication database requires > Windows; and I haven't really studied client integration yet. This will be > for Windows, Mac, and UNIX users (FreeBSD, Linux) hitting my inward SSH and > VPN servers and a few web servers and maybe Citrix. > What's the most open-standards-friendly of the several commercial systems? > (I know about S/Key and Opie, but these don't strike me as suitable for > non-sysadmins to use.) Which one has the best integration with LDAP and > PAM and RADIUS and that sort of thing? Which one works even if there is no > Microsoft product anywhere in sight, yet supports end users on Windows? > I just might come up with the ten grand this time, if it would buy me > exactly what I want. But entirely free (open source) would be fine. Would a PDA software solution be acceptable? I've heard that there exists a combination of UNIX/Linux server software (PAM modules, presumably) and PalmOS client software that provides a software OTP system. If PalmOS would be acceptable on the client/hardware side I'll look into it and see if I can dig it up. Warning, it might be nothing more than OPIE (S/Key) ported to Palm on the one side. Incidentally, ISTR that the OpenBSD folks modified their OTP system (OPIE based?) to provide one-time LOGOUT verification. This was to confirm that your logout command was actually executed on the remote host (to mitigate a rather nasty risk of an MITM (man-in-the-middle) keeping your shell session open after you thought you were logged out. Of course, if you have an active MITM --- I don't know of any general way (using exising shells and given the availability of software like 'screen') to really protect nor even alert yourself of such an attack. (Scenario: you log in through my MITM, I faithfully relay the challenge and response and possibly any interdiate shell prompts and commands; when I detect a privileged shell, my MITM installs a screen-like program, execs it, and provides you with another copy of your shell. Meanwhile, I have access to the multiplexed session, to other processes which you can neither see nor access). My thoughts on this have lead me to a deep suspicion of OTP in general. OTP is fundamentally there when I can't trust my client software (the copy of ssh on the terminal room computer) or when I have no choice but to run an insecure protocol (telnet). If I can trust my client software then I don't need OTP. But if I can't, I'm not sure I gained much against the possible active MITM! -- Jim Dennis From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 11:49:43 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KJngp01421 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:49:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200301201949.LAA07068@plxw0026.pdx.intel.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-0.27 To: Jim cc: Jim Hickstein , sage-members@sage.org, star@starshine.org, steve@ichips.intel.com Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens In-Reply-To: Message from Jim of "Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:20:52 PST." <20030120192052.GJ1395@mars.starshine.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:49:32 -0800 From: Steve Willoughby X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > On Fri, Jan 17, 2003 at 09:10:12AM -0800, Jim Hickstein wrote: > Warning, it might be nothing more than OPIE (S/Key) ported to Palm > on the one side. [snip description of MITM attack] > My thoughts on this have lead me to a deep suspicion of OTP in > general. OTP is fundamentally there when I can't trust my client > software (the copy of ssh on the terminal room computer) or when I > have no choice but to run an insecure protocol (telnet). If I can > trust my client software then I don't need OTP. But if I can't, > I'm not sure I gained much against the possible active MITM! Actually, a quasi-trivial attack can be made against OTP such as S/Key without even requiring any kind of MITM arrangement. Just the ability to snoop the challenge and response on a cleartext channel like telnet. So personally, I wouldn't trust OTP in the long term, and if you do use it, (1) use it and then run, don't walk, to (2) change your OTP keys once you do have a secure channel again. Between (1) and (2) you're vulnerable. Better than typing your password in the clear, but not much. --steve -- Steve Willoughby | Let thy software go forth amid the hostile Intel DPG Eng. Computing | input, accepting liberally and crashing not, Engineering Apps Development | yet sending forth only harmless output. | -- Matt 10:16 (programmer's translation) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 12:02:46 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KK2kQ01730 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:02:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:02:36 -0800 From: Hal Pomeranz To: Steve Willoughby Cc: Jim , Jim Hickstein , sage-members@sage.org, star@starshine.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens Message-ID: <20030120200236.GP5738@deer-run.com> References: <20030120192052.GJ1395@mars.starshine.org> <200301201949.LAA07068@plxw0026.pdx.intel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200301201949.LAA07068@plxw0026.pdx.intel.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Actually, a quasi-trivial attack can be made against OTP such as S/Key > without even requiring any kind of MITM arrangement. Just the ability > to snoop the challenge and response on a cleartext channel like telnet. > > So personally, I wouldn't trust OTP in the long term, and if you do use > it, (1) use it and then run, don't walk, to (2) change your OTP keys once > you do have a secure channel again. Between (1) and (2) you're vulnerable. > Better than typing your password in the clear, but not much. I believe you're referring to a brute force attack where the attacker attempts to guess the secret used to produce the response by doing a dictionary or exhaustive guessing style attack similar to a standard password cracking utility. While this sort of attack is possible, consider: 1) OTP users can (and should) choose long secrets (and not limit themselves to the old 8 character DES maximum) 2) the hashing algorithms used by standard OTP systems are reasonably computationally intensive (limited benchmarking on my desktop shows it can do only about 1500 MD5 encryptions per second) 3) OTP systems do restrict the number of logins before changing secrets is required (hopefully this occurs before the attacker's brute force attack is able to succeed) Frankly, I'd be more worried about session hijacking using OTP over a clear text link than I would be a brute force attack on my OTP secret. Now repeat after me, "SSH is friend to all computer users..." -- Hal Pomeranz, Founder/CEO Deer Run Associates hal@deer-run.com Network Connectivity and Security, Systems Management, Training From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 12:09:40 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KK9dp02011 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:09:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200301202009.MAA07241@plxw0026.pdx.intel.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-0.27 To: Hal Pomeranz cc: Steve Willoughby , Jim , Jim Hickstein , sage-members@sage.org, star@starshine.org, steve@ichips.intel.com Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens In-Reply-To: Message from Hal Pomeranz of "Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:02:36 PST." <20030120200236.GP5738@deer-run.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:09:30 -0800 From: Steve Willoughby X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > 1) OTP users can (and should) choose long secrets (and not limit > themselves to the old 8 character DES maximum) This will make the attack exponentially more difficult, maybe unreasonable to perform. However, my experience is that if you open the capability for your users, 99% of the time they will pick really dumb passphrases which may be trivial to crack. If you can manage to enforce good passphrase selection, OTP is much more secure. > Frankly, I'd be more worried about session hijacking using OTP over > a clear text link than I would be a brute force attack on my OTP secret. As would I. I've just seen to many people get into trouble by picking a solution that sounds good on paper, implementing it and naively assuming that they're protected. And I've run into people who assume that OTP is completely secure with any passphrase because it's hashed n times. Not that anyone on *this* list would use 'aaa123' as an OTP passphrase, of course, but I'm assuming that most of us have a general user population to support, so the caution flag is always good to raise. -- Steve Willoughby | Let thy software go forth amid the hostile Intel DPG Eng. Computing | input, accepting liberally and crashing not, Engineering Apps Development | yet sending forth only harmless output. | -- Matt 10:16 (programmer's translation) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 12:16:28 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KKGSR02275 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:16:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:16:20 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Steve Willoughby cc: Jim , sage-members@sage.org, star@starshine.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens Message-ID: <10830000.1043093780@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <200301201949.LAA07068@plxw0026.pdx.intel.com> References: <200301201949.LAA07068@plxw0026.pdx.intel.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >> My thoughts on this have lead me to a deep suspicion of OTP in >> general. My goals are a little simpler than all these attacks imply. This would only be used down encrypted channels from trusted client hosts, so the MITM stuff isn't my biggest concern. The objective is simply to preclude the use of re-usable passwords, when reaching in across my physical network boundary, so people can't trivially give them away to each other (and to customers, friends, etc.). Disabling, say, a former employee's reusable-password access to company systems utterly fails to ensure that they don't know the reusable password of another, current employee. There is far too much laxity here about keeping passwords secret, even if they're strong. This then transfers the problem the PIN that unlocks the stored secret, but this is why I want a token rather than simply using the PIN _as_ the secret -- as S/Key and Opie do -- because they'd give away their PINs if they could. Forcing them in this case to surrender the one device that gives them their own access, i.e. making it non-duplicable, is the only way I can see to stop this. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 12:52:21 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KKqLf02756 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:52:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:52:01 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens Message-ID: <20030120205201.GA4787@snew.com> References: <200301201949.LAA07068@plxw0026.pdx.intel.com> <10830000.1043093780@jxh.mirapoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <10830000.1043093780@jxh.mirapoint.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Given those goals, you might simply require ssh with a key, no passwords allowed at all. Or Kerberos. Or both :) I picked up one of those USB storage units ($4 after rebate, purely for toy factor) and am looking at keepings keys and what not on THAT so it's portable with me. Cons include that it would need to be mounted on whatever machine I'm at. I've used DES challenge response devices and used them with OpenBSD (built in support) and SunOS a lot (venema's daemontools had a login(8) that could support it with an unrecalled amount of work. I used fwtk proxies for its support of them as well. The device, an SNK-4 now owned by Raptor, last I looked, still works after 7 years, cost me $35 each for 3. I know there are software versions available and other calculators. The final part is a strong policy about sharing secret information like passwords. Tell someone your password, your belonging can be picked up at the loading dock at 4. I worked for a client (very short term) that had switches locked down by Mac address, they ran Bochs (sp?) - some commercial Unix priviledge partitioning software. My job was to install a large application, so I needed root and had to reboot a dozen times. They were so secure that I couldn't use the tools on my laptop to debug (though I showed that I could change MAC addresses in a moment to match the useless Solaris box that had used the port). It was so secure, they couldn't change the root password for this machine for 2 days because they were all the same on all the machines. It was so secure that you needed privs to print from certain machines, so they all told each other their passwords to do these basic functions. And they never saw that their security was close to nil for all their measures. Quoting Jim Hickstein (jxh@jxh.com): > >> My thoughts on this have lead me to a deep suspicion of OTP in > >> general. > > My goals are a little simpler than all these attacks imply. This would > only be used down encrypted channels from trusted client hosts, so the MITM > stuff isn't my biggest concern. The objective is simply to preclude the > use of re-usable passwords, when reaching in across my physical network > boundary, so people can't trivially give them away to each other (and to > customers, friends, etc.). > > Disabling, say, a former employee's reusable-password access to company > systems utterly fails to ensure that they don't know the reusable password > of another, current employee. There is far too much laxity here about > keeping passwords secret, even if they're strong. This then transfers the > problem the PIN that unlocks the stored secret, but this is why I want a > token rather than simply using the PIN _as_ the secret -- as S/Key and Opie > do -- because they'd give away their PINs if they could. Forcing them in > this case to surrender the one device that gives them their own access, > i.e. making it non-duplicable, is the only way I can see to stop this. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 13:13:22 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KLDM403108 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:13:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:12:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200301202112.h0KLCsL68899@gc0.generalconcepts.com> From: John Sellens To: jxh@jxh.com, sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk | From: Jim Hickstein | | There is far too much laxity here about | keeping passwords secret, even if they're strong. | ... Forcing them in | this case to surrender the one device that gives them their own access, | i.e. making it non-duplicable, is the only way I can see to stop this. Jim's point here is important, and often overlooked. A token prevents people from sharing passwords (easily) and helps ensure that all your "role based" access rules on the network don't get trivially bypassed by someone "just trying to help". Remember: sometimes we do things to protect ourselves from other people, and sometimes we do things to protect ourselves from ourselves. John From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 13:16:25 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KLGP703349 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:16:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:16:14 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Chuck Yerkes cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens Message-ID: <16460000.1043097374@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <20030120205201.GA4787@snew.com> References: <200301201949.LAA07068@plxw0026.pdx.intel.com> <10830000.1043093780@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030120205201.GA4787@snew.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Given those goals, you might simply require ssh with a key, > no passwords allowed at all. > > Or Kerberos. Or both :) I also need to permit inward access to a VPN box (Cisco 3000, currently using NT domain auth), a mail server (can do Kerberos, actually), and a web server (currently using Basic-Auth to LDAP). Plus, key-only is dashed inconvenient when you're coming from a novel place. We don't let most people get a full shell on that host, so we'd have to be manipulating their authorized_keys files for them, or write software, or relax that restriction. *sigh* Plus, the SSH users are the least of my worries. > I picked up one of those USB storage units ($4 after rebate, > purely for toy factor) and am looking at keepings keys and what > not on THAT so it's portable with me. Cons include that it would > need to be mounted on whatever machine I'm at. Same with the crypto iButton. Cute, but fingers and eyes are all that's needed to operate the typical token, and those are already present, and not my problem to support. > The device, an SNK-4 now owned by Raptor, last I looked, still > works after 7 years, cost me $35 each for 3. I know there are > software versions available and other calculators. I used to use these, as well. Does anyone have a link to _modern_ software for a server? Who does the client integration if there's no revenue for it? (Or are standards like GSSAPI(??)/RADIUS/LDAP/whatever now so advanced that clients don't need special hooks any more?) This is how SecureID used to make their sales: box X only worked with their stuff. > The final part is a strong policy about sharing secret information > like passwords. Tell someone your password, your belonging can > be picked up at the loading dock at 4. If I could achieve that, I would do it first. It's actually easier than what I'm proposing. But politically, I can't. > It was so secure, they couldn't change the root password for this > machine for 2 days because they were all the same on all the > machines. It was so secure that you needed privs to print from > certain machines, so they all told each other their passwords to > do these basic functions. And they never saw that their security > was close to nil for all their measures. Some outfits I visit won't let you _out_ across their firewall without authenticating. (I'm sure this is good practice, if you can afford a team of 5 staff full-time to wrangle your firewall.) One wouldn't -- couldn't -- permit it unless I was running Windows. (That's just stupid.) I don't have a lot of time to waste on all this. I run a pretty laissez-faire firewall, in the name of being able to sleep at night and get some other work done. But the password-sharing culture is a bitch. (Fix the president of the company, and all else becomes possible.) Tokens may help. I need to explore them fully. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 13:20:18 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KLKIM03614 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:20:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:20:15 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: John Sellens cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens Message-ID: <17430000.1043097615@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <200301202112.h0KLCsL68899@gc0.generalconcepts.com> References: <200301202112.h0KLCsL68899@gc0.generalconcepts.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >| ... Forcing them in >| this case to surrender the one device that gives them their own access, >| i.e. making it non-duplicable, is the only way I can see to stop this. > > Jim's point here is important, and often overlooked. (Thank you for that.) Actually, one can "give away" a one-time use, say over the phone. I've used this to advantage when I was travelling, etc., during an emergency. But then you hang up and the next time they need you on the line again. It's just enough trouble that it would solve the behavioral problem I'm facing. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 13:20:53 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KLKrw03802 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:20:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:20:48 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Sorenson To: Jim Hickstein Cc: Jim , Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens In-Reply-To: <10830000.1043093780@jxh.mirapoint.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.4 required=6.5 tests=CARRIAGE_RETURNS,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,USER_AGENT_PINE version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Jim Hickstein wrote: > >> [ Jim Dennis wrote: ] > >> My thoughts on this have lead me to a deep suspicion of OTP in > >> general. As in many things security-related there is some snake oil and some real benefit to OTP. However the existence of snake oil (which can usually be identified by "one size fits all" or "magic bullet" language by people who, for pay, provide a particular solution) does NOT constitute proof of the non-existence of real benefit. In other words, suspect away, but the truth is there are very real benefits to OTP when it's used appropriately. > My goals are a little simpler than all these attacks imply. This would > only be used down encrypted channels from trusted client hosts, so the MITM > stuff isn't my biggest concern. The objective is simply to preclude the > use of re-usable passwords, when reaching in across my physical network > boundary, so people can't trivially give them away to each other (and to > customers, friends, etc.). And this is a great example where OTP will get you vast improvements in real-world security for relatively minor pain. > Disabling, say, a former employee's reusable-password access to company > systems utterly fails to ensure that they don't know the reusable password > of another, current employee. There is far too much laxity here about > keeping passwords secret, even if they're strong. This then transfers the > problem the PIN that unlocks the stored secret, but this is why I want a > token rather than simply using the PIN _as_ the secret -- as S/Key and Opie > do -- because they'd give away their PINs if they could. Forcing them in > this case to surrender the one device that gives them their own access, > i.e. making it non-duplicable, is the only way I can see to stop this. This paragraph looks right on point to me. I wrote a message to the list a month or two ago describing our use of CryptoCard tokens in a thread called "Non-reusable Password Systems"; while I won't repeat what I said then, here are a few comments from our rollout, eight weeks on: Make sure you impress upon your users that they are responsible for their token in the same way as their access badge or physical keys; if possible get approval to charge the real cost of the token (maybe plus some "feel the pain" money) for losing it. We've had people say "oh I threw it out when cleaning my desk", "I didn't think I'd need it" and so forth, which are ultimately our fault for not making their importance more clear. If your tokens have a 'lockout' feature which disables access after 'n' wrong PIN attempts, make it pretty generous (5-10) and show via physical demonstration or illustrated docs what it looks like when you put in the wrong pin. Several of our users have inconveniently locked themselves out by putting in the same wrong PIN five times in a row. Our users really aren't that dense! It's just a new habit for them to get into and it takes a little time. -- Eric Sorenson - EXPLOSIVE Networking - http://explosive.net From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 13:49:12 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KLnCx04297 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:49:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:49:08 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: ISO9000 Re: [SAGE] Unix sys admin "run book" documentation standards and templates Message-ID: <20030120214908.GC5445@snew.com> References: <74FE19E5-2988-11D7-875D-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> <26970000.1042750395@jxh.mirapoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <26970000.1042750395@jxh.mirapoint.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Jim Hickstein (jxh@jxh.com): > >The first company I worked for used work instructions for detailing how > >things were done. > If that was where I think you mean: That was due to my and Hal Pomeranz's > thinking about this. I had recently come from a company that was heavily > into TQM, and the software group I worked in was undergoing ISO-9001 > certification just then. I adopted the term "work instruction" from the > ISO-9000 universe. > > We were thinking of going for ISO-9001 ourselves, in the sysadmin > organization at the new outfit, but somehow didn't get around to it. We don't work well, but our faults are well documented and regular. As long as you cut your finger off using our lumbermills proper procedures, it's not seen as a problem. I had such regular negative experiences with PHB's perkily pushing the importance of ISO-9000. Struck me as the same forces that gave us C2 security on Sun's which broke if you turned off portmap. All breakins will be duly logged. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 13:55:31 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KLtVu04562 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:55:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:55:28 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens Message-ID: <22750000.1043099728@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <20030120205201.GA4787@snew.com> References: <200301201949.LAA07068@plxw0026.pdx.intel.com> <10830000.1043093780@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030120205201.GA4787@snew.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --On Monday, January 20, 2003 15:52:01 -0500 Chuck Yerkes wrote: > Given those goals, you might simply require ssh with a key, > no passwords allowed at all. Come to think of it, I would probably permit SSH with DSA auth _or_ OTP, if only so I could continue to use ssh-agent(1). ssh-agent(1) _rocks_. If you're not familiar with it, you should be. I can't remember how I lived without it, and I don't say that about many things. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 14:04:53 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KM4rw04870 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:04:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 17:04:49 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] NetApp--spindles vs. performance Message-ID: <20030120220449.GD5445@snew.com> Reply-To: sage-members@sage.org References: <10471F8F-2985-11D7-875D-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <10471F8F-2985-11D7-875D-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Guy B. Purcell (guy@extragalactic.net): > He's specing out a NetApp filer (F810, I believe), and would like to > know if anyone has any real experience with (or even well-educated > guesses about) the performance gain of using 36 GB disks instead of 72 > GB disks. The intended use will be about 50/50 for typical PC > office-type files & Oracle DBs. > > He needs to balance maximizing performance against minimizing cost. > Using 36 GB disks costs more (need twice as many disks to achieve the 1 > TB storage goal), but that might be offset by significant performance > gains from having twice as many spindles. Are there rules of thumb for > this sort of thing in general? There must be some point of diminishing > returns with shrinking disk size to increase spindle count (would that > I had a system to experiment with!). Thanks! "it depends" ....? First note that for "typical PC office-type" use, you may be fine with ENORMOUS disks. And you can have ranks of disk that are exported for that that are large. For oracle and DBs in general, I'd offer: Why put it on remote storage? For the pain of network speed access? We'll get back to that.. I've done work with excessively high scale, high performance mail work. We've speced out that we'll use only for first 4-8 GB of any disk in there. We could only get so much speed per spindle and we needed maximum speed. I've also done the same work for a less high perf site. Same software but far fewer concurrent users, far more idle mail. So we let them use the whole disk. Smaller disks will be faster, but no faster than a larger disk that you format to use less. 15KRPM disks are notably faster than 10K and 7200K RPM disks. Web services can often be massively sped up with caching from ends (no need to pull logo images across the net for each request). You only get so much per disk and, with WAFFLE-fs (or any FS), and so much for a big wad of disks. The CPU utilization of NetApps often show when the machine is overloaded. I'll also presume that you have multiple GB nets bonded to the Switch to take advantage of this speed. You don't want the LAN to be the bottleneck. I love Netapps, but they are network attached and 1GB ethernet will give you, in reality, no more than relatively slow direct attached RAID. Databases can hammer disks. My S.O. works with hard hitting DBs and she has multiple high performance RAID boxes striped in software across multiple controllers on multiple PCI busses (first perf. improvement was taking 3 SCSI/80 controllers off of the same bus of an E4500). She's able to get 200+ MB/s (big B) pretty easily and relatively cheaply. Gigabit (small B) drivers for the OS's I've seen *might* give you 60MB/s of actual data throughput. You'll get far better DB performance from locally attached disk. Netapps are a great tool, but not every problem is a nail. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 14:57:34 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KMvYl05469 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:57:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:57:24 -0600 From: "Mark D. Roth" To: Jim Hickstein Cc: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens Message-ID: <20030120165724.A10762@yorktown.isdn.uiuc.edu> References: <200301201949.LAA07068@plxw0026.pdx.intel.com> <10830000.1043093780@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030120205201.GA4787@snew.com> <16460000.1043097374@jxh.mirapoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <16460000.1043097374@jxh.mirapoint.com>; from jxh@jxh.com on Mon, Jan 20, 2003 at 01:16:14PM -0800 Organization: Feep Networks X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon Jan 20 13:16 2003 -0800, Jim Hickstein wrote: > > The device, an SNK-4 now owned by Raptor, last I looked, still > > works after 7 years, cost me $35 each for 3. I know there are > > software versions available and other calculators. > > I used to use these, as well. Does anyone have a link to _modern_ software > for a server? Who does the client integration if there's no revenue for > it? (Or are standards like GSSAPI(??)/RADIUS/LDAP/whatever now so advanced > that clients don't need special hooks any more?) This is how SecureID used > to make their sales: box X only worked with their stuff. We still use SNKs. I have no idea if the devices are still available, but we have so many spares that we've never needed to buy more. I've also heard that there's an SNK app for PalmOS, so you may not need to buy the devices in the first place. I would like to see a more modern server - with a less restrictive license - to replace the orignal TIS fwtk authsrv. However, this isn't a high priority for us, since the TIS code works fine once you manage to get it built and configured. Incidentally, I had a conversation with Balazs Scheidler (the guy that wrote syslog-ng) about this on the OpenSSH mailing list (and continuing in private messages) back in December of 2000. He claimed to have a new implementation of authsrv, but without SNK support, that he'd written on bid for a customer. He said he might release it as free software at some point, but I don't know if that ever actually happened. The client side hasn't been a problem, because everything we care about supports PAM these days, and there are a few different PAM modules out there for authsrv authentication. We use one that I wrote, which is available here: http://www-dev.cites.uiuc.edu/PAM/ Anyway, I dunno if any of this does anyone any good or not, but I figured I'd share the info just in case... -- Mark D. Roth http://www.feep.net/~roth/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 15:10:45 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KNAjE05789 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:10:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:10:35 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: "Mark D. Roth" cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens Message-ID: <32930000.1043104235@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <20030120165724.A10762@yorktown.isdn.uiuc.edu> References: <200301201949.LAA07068@plxw0026.pdx.intel.com> <10830000.1043093780@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030120205201.GA4787@snew.com> <16460000.1043097374@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030120165724.A10762@yorktown.isdn.uiuc.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --On Monday, January 20, 2003 16:57:24 -0600 "Mark D. Roth" wrote: ... > http://www-dev.cites.uiuc.edu/PAM/ > > Anyway, I dunno if any of this does anyone any good or not, but I > figured I'd share the info just in case... Cool! Thanks! PAM will help me in some places (the SSH server). My Cisco 3000 VPN box is the one I haven't figured out, yet. (Admittedly, I've spent all my time reading and deleting email, instead of reading the docs at cisco.com, so off I go.) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 15:41:31 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0KNfVe06243 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:41:31 -0800 (PST) X-hashcash-expected: ant.notatla.demon.co.uk 20 To: jsellens@generalconcepts.com, jxh@jxh.com Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens Cc: sage-members@sage.org Message-Id: <20030120234523.01DAD46D4@notatla.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 23:45:23 +0000 (GMT) From: ant@notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk From: Jim Hickstein > >| ... Forcing them in > >| this case to surrender the one device that gives them their own access, > >| i.e. making it non-duplicable, is the only way I can see to stop this. > Actually, one can "give away" a one-time use, say over the phone. I've > used this to advantage when I was travelling, etc., during an emergency. > But then you hang up and the next time they need you on the line again. This doesn't handle the nuisance users who will use the one-time access to set up a reverse telnet or something. I suppose you can argue that such conduct is sufficiently obviously wrong that you can then punish them assuming your detection and proof is up to the job. -- ############################################################## # Antonomasia ant notatla.demon.co.uk # # See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/ # ############################################################## From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 16:40:03 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0L0e3706869 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:40:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:39:53 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Antonomasia cc: jsellens@generalconcepts.com, sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens Message-ID: <41730000.1043109593@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <20030120234523.01DAD46D4@notatla.demon.co.uk> References: <20030120234523.01DAD46D4@notatla.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > This doesn't handle the nuisance users who will use the one-time access > to set up a reverse telnet or something. Point. Fortunately I don't have to worry too much about that. The example I cited was giving temporary access to another sysadmin (a peer), so trust wasn't a problem. And my run-of-the-mill users aren't going to figure out either end of the above gambit on their own. And yes, certain things (like "sudo /bin/sh") are considered prima facie acts of wrongdoing, meaning that I can convince HR to take steps. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 17:27:39 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0L1Rdj07368 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 17:27:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200301210117.RAA10206@biz.compata.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.3 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:39:53 PST." <41730000.1043109593@jxh.mirapoint.com> From: Dave Close X-message-flag: Did you know MS Outlook is evil? X-Face: $?&5f7w4GjUJOb-[FmngebA}V`5Dv)QEdHg|d%mytVRm]'o}*{J6:PP%(LfN LmOcb#>"^wDF*|ZzuS??S*vLH[.miV(And yes, certain things (like "sudo /bin/sh") are considered prima >facie acts of wrongdoing, meaning that I can convince HR to take steps. Why? If that function works, it must be because you allowed it. If you didn't, it shouldn't do anything besides produce an error message. It may be stretching things, but the attempt could have been a typo. Personally, I've been in situations where I didn't know if something was permitted, and the only easy way to find out was to try it. Then, when it doesn't work, I can let the powers-that-be know the adverse impact on my job performance. If it does work for me, and I suspect it really shouldn't, I can also report that. -- Dave Close, Compata, Costa Mesa CA +1 714 434 7359 dave@compata.com dhclose@alumni.caltech.edu "The world will little note nor long remember what we say here." -- Abraham Lincoln, Gettysburg, 1863 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 19:30:30 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0L3UUW08294 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:30:30 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:19:36 -0800 To: Steve Willoughby Cc: Jim , Jim Hickstein , sage-members@sage.org, star@starshine.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens Message-ID: <20030121031936.GA5611@mars.starshine.org> References: <20030120192052.GJ1395@mars.starshine.org> <200301201949.LAA07068@plxw0026.pdx.intel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200301201949.LAA07068@plxw0026.pdx.intel.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jan 20, 2003 at 11:49:32AM -0800, Steve Willoughby wrote: >> On Fri, Jan 17, 2003 at 09:10:12AM -0800, Jim Hickstein wrote: >> Warning, it might be nothing more than OPIE (S/Key) ported to Palm >> on the one side. > [snip description of MITM attack] >> My thoughts on this have lead me to a deep suspicion of OTP in >> general. OTP is fundamentally there when I can't trust my client >> software (the copy of ssh on the terminal room computer) or when I >> have no choice but to run an insecure protocol (telnet). If I can >> trust my client software then I don't need OTP. But if I can't, >> I'm not sure I gained much against the possible active MITM! > Actually, a quasi-trivial attack can be made against OTP such as S/Key > without even requiring any kind of MITM arrangement. Just the ability > to snoop the challenge and response on a cleartext channel like telnet. > So personally, I wouldn't trust OTP in the long term, and if you do use > it, (1) use it and then run, don't walk, to (2) change your OTP keys once > you do have a secure channel again. Between (1) and (2) you're vulnerable. > Better than typing your password in the clear, but not much. Are you referring to the Monkey variation of crack? I was not going to bring that one up --- but I'm aware of that problem, too. -- Jim Dennis From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 20 22:50:11 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0L6oBE09774 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:50:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:50:09 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] NetApp--spindles vs. performance Message-ID: <20030120225009.A34473@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@sage.org References: <3E271273.70802@anim.dreamworks.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from doug@eng.auburn.edu on Thu, Jan 16, 2003 at 02:26:04PM -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jan 16, 2003 at 02:26:04PM -0600, Doug Hughes wrote: > > Wide thin striping is another good use of technology to take maximum > advantage of performance while minimizing administrative overhead. > (http://www.sun.com/solutions/blueprints/1000/layout.pdf) I wish someone had never come up with that idiotic phrase. Reminds me of that alchohol commercial (which I just saw today, funnily enough)... " Did you saySergio, in Rio? dark, fairhaired, heavy-set thin guy?" How about using a longer set of words that convey the meaning precicely, instead of using only two words, that then require people go download the pdf ? I dont remember if it was advocating wide columns, with few disks, or many disks, with narrow columns. (or some other layout, even) "wide thin striping" does not help jog my memory as to the specifics. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 21 09:23:04 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0LHN4Q03572 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:23:04 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Company Message-ID: <49844.68.6.89.102.1043169489.squirrel@webmail.noyb.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:18:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [SAGE] PPTP client for Solaris To: X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.4) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone know of an Open Source PPTP client for Solaris? I tried Poptop http://www.poptop.org/ but it didn't compile. I tried the ported pptp-linux http://cag.lcs.mit.edu/~cananian/Projects/PPTP/release/ It compiled, but did't run. The client returns with nothing started or created. I've tried connecting with a Windows 2000 box. "Error 691: Access was denied because the username and/or password was invalid on the domain." I know you have to pass protocol 47 (GRE) and port 1723 in and out. I wonder if my ISP is filtering? Thanks for any help. --pjc From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 21 09:28:52 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0LHSq603854 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:28:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:27:33 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Dave Close cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens Message-ID: <15240000.1043170053@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <200301210117.RAA10206@biz.compata.com> References: <200301210117.RAA10206@biz.compata.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >> And yes, certain things (like "sudo /bin/sh") are considered prima >> facie acts of wrongdoing, meaning that I can convince HR to take >> steps. > > Why? If that function works, it must be because you allowed it. Because it defeats sudo's auditing. This is for sysadmins generally, where sudo ALL=ALL is considered slightly better than handing out the (reusable) root password to a bunch of people. And one doesn't go to HR first, of course. One asks for an explanation, and then reminds them of the policy. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 21 09:57:03 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0LHv3m04413 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:57:03 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Jim Hickstein Cc: Dave Close , sage-members@usenix.org From: Ted Cabeen Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens In-Reply-To: <15240000.1043170053@jxh.mirapoint.com> References: <15240000.1043170053@jxh.mirapoint.com> <200301210117.RAA10206@biz.compata.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:57:01 -0800 Message-Id: <20030121175701.4941DA1@gray.impulse.net> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In message <15240000.1043170053@jxh.mirapoint.com>, Jim Hickstein writes: >>> And yes, certain things (like "sudo /bin/sh") are considered prima >>> facie acts of wrongdoing, meaning that I can convince HR to take >>> steps. >> >> Why? If that function works, it must be because you allowed it. > >Because it defeats sudo's auditing. This is for sysadmins generally, where >sudo ALL=ALL is considered slightly better than handing out the (reusable) >root password to a bunch of people. We try to use sudo for sysadmin tasks here too, but you need to make sure that your policy is flexible enough to deal with the specifics of your systems as well. We discourage the use of "sudo " because it breaks auditing, but we have to use it from time to time when we need to glob through a set of non-world readable/executable directories. Our policy recognizes that when your working on the mail system, "sudo " is usually okay, although if you're always using it, that's something to look at. - -- Ted Cabeen http://www.pobox.com/~secabeen ted@impulse.net Check Website or Keyserver for PGP/GPG Key BA0349D2 secabeen@pobox.com "I have taken all knowledge to be my province." -F. Bacon secabeen@cabeen.org "Human kind cannot bear very much reality."-T.S.Eliot cabeen@netcom.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) Comment: Exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 iD8DBQE+LYntoayJfLoDSdIRAkU+AKCH7XwSj0qDGVG53FwXXTY35AjJhwCgjiTu 25oQRkC6XnKMgWHLWhDOanQ= =Smjh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 21 10:12:23 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0LICN004897 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:12:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:12:20 -0800 (PST) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <200301211812.h0LICKCB000658@bunrab.catwhisker.org> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens In-Reply-To: <20030121175701.4941DA1@gray.impulse.net> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >From: Ted Cabeen >Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:57:01 -0800 >We try to use sudo for sysadmin tasks here too, but you need to make sure that >your policy is flexible enough to deal with the specifics of your systems as >well. We discourage the use of "sudo " because it breaks auditing, but >we have to use it from time to time when we need to glob through a set of >non-world readable/executable directories. Our policy recognizes that when >your working on the mail system, "sudo " is usually okay, although if >you're always using it, that's something to look at. For such cases, using "sudo script /var/log/" may well be a more useful alternative. YMMV, void where prohibited, texed, or otherwise restricted.... Cheers, david (links to my resume at http://www.catwhisker.org/~david) -- David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org I have no confidence in results obtained through the use of Microsoft products. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 21 10:18:15 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0LIIFS05181 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:18:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:19:30 -0500 From: Steve Simmons To: Ted Cabeen Cc: Jim Hickstein , Dave Close , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Security tokens Message-ID: <20030121181930.GA71563@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <15240000.1043170053@jxh.mirapoint.com> <200301210117.RAA10206@biz.compata.com> <20030121175701.4941DA1@gray.impulse.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030121175701.4941DA1@gray.impulse.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 21, 2003 at 09:57:01AM -0800, Ted Cabeen wrote: > We try to use sudo for sysadmin tasks here too, but you need to make sure that > your policy is flexible enough to deal with the specifics of your systems as > well. We discourage the use of "sudo " because it breaks auditing, but > we have to use it from time to time when we need to glob through a set of > non-world readable/executable directories. Op is your friend. It's like sudo in many ways, but lets you take much finer grain control. For example, on my home machine anyone in group 'family' was able to do 'op shutdown' or 'op reboot' and reset the system. See ftp://ftp.cerias.purdue.edu/pub/tools/unix/sysutils/op/op-1.11.tar.gz. The tarball contains a paper about op, a man page, and sample config files as well as the source. Configuration can occasionally be difficult, depending on how subtle you want to get. But it's much much safer than permitting "sudo ". From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 21 14:33:36 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0LMXaE08268 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:33:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: goodall.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:33:29 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: Philip Brown cc: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] NetApp--spindles vs. performance In-Reply-To: <20030120225009.A34473@bolthole.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Philip Brown wrote: > On Thu, Jan 16, 2003 at 02:26:04PM -0600, Doug Hughes wrote: > > > > Wide thin striping is another good use of technology to take maximum > > advantage of performance while minimizing administrative overhead. > > (http://www.sun.com/solutions/blueprints/1000/layout.pdf) > > I wish someone had never come up with that idiotic phrase. > > Reminds me of that alchohol commercial (which I just saw today, funnily > enough)... > " Did you saySergio, in Rio? dark, fairhaired, heavy-set thin guy?" > > How about using a longer set of words that convey the meaning precicely, > instead of using only two words, that then require people go download > the pdf ? > > I dont remember if it was advocating wide columns, with few disks, or > many disks, with narrow columns. (or some other layout, even) > "wide thin striping" does not help jog my memory as to the specifics. > for those that have not glanced at the pdf (which is a good read) Abstract: The technique of using stripes to spread data and indexes over many disks is described. This disk layout strategy simplifies performance considerations while achieving reliable and manageable disk farms on large systems. The technique is compared to a carefully hand-balanced layout for disk contention and scalability. Hardware mirrroring in conjunction with host level mirroring or a volume manager capable of creating striped mirrors is a key enabler. Detailed considerations that database specialists need to make in order to justify this layout technique are presented. The recommmendation to use wide-thin stripes to maximize operational flexibility while minimizing complexity is justified. --- - take a large number of disks, break them up into a large number of equally sized regions (subdisks, etc), use a large interlace value, and make stripes covering a fairly large number of disks. It balances I/O and maximizes disk and channel/controller usage while minimizing hotspots. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 24 10:47:47 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0OIllS10462 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:47:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E318895.9010902@cs.berkeley.edu> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:40:21 -0800 From: "Aaron Brown" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] Help sysadmin research by taking a survey Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, We're looking for sysadmins with experience managing e-mail systems who'd be willing to take a few minutes to fill out a survey about their experiences keeping e-mail up and running. We hope to use the collected data to advance our research on easier-to-manage systems, tools for sysadmins, and benchmarks that measure administrability and dependability. If you manage e-mail services, particularly if you run them for a business or a large collection of users, we'd greatly appreciate your help. As an incentive, we're offering survey participants the chance to win one of five $50 gift certificates to Amazon.com. The survey can be filled out online, and is located at: http://roc.cs.berkeley.edu/projects/emailsurvey/ Some background: we're a group of researchers in the Recovery-Oriented Computing (ROC) project at the University of California, Berkeley and Stanford University, lead by Professors David Patterson and Armando Fox. A major goal of the ROC project is to develop tools and system architectures that make the sysadmin's job easier. We're particularly focusing on dependability--trying to understand what real sysadmins need to do to keep systems up and running, what kinds of things sysadmins can do to inadvertently break them, and what we can do to help. We've chosen e-mail as the first real-world target of our ideas, and now we're carrying out this survey to collect the data we need to calibrate our new tools and benchmarks. More information on the project is at http://roc.cs.berkeley.edu/ If you have any questions about the survey, please send them to roc-bench@cs.berkeley.edu and one of us will get back to you. Again, the survey is at http://roc.cs.berkeley.edu/projects/emailsurvey/ Thanks! Aaron Brown Graduate Student Researcher, ROC Research Group, UC Berkeley abrown@cs.berkeley.edu From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 24 16:14:11 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0P0EBV13996 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 16:14:11 -0800 (PST) From: "Linda Drake" To: Subject: [SAGE] Costing out of sysadmin services Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:15:59 -0700 Message-ID: <044501c2c406$f04d97a0$35718a80@SPARKY> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We're in the unenviable but now common position of finding ourselves faced with diminishing budgets but not diminishing workload or projects. I've struggled for some time to find a way to cost out our services so that we can: (1) understand where our efforts go, as personnel is the vast majority of our costs, and (2) present a convincing case for better allocating existing resources or acquiring new funding. In summary, I need to be able to answer the question: how much does service X cost to provide? The challenge for me has been that sysadmins work in parallel on a multitude of big and small tasks. It's not a profession where you have a few major projects that occupy your time, and every day you take a few moments to jot down how much time you spent on each project. As a sysadmin, not only are you juggling a variety of tasks simultaneously, the tasks themselves span a whole variety of services. As an example, a set of patches is installed on all the platforms as part of one task. Determining how much time of that effort went toward the "email" service, the "web" service, the "directory" service, the "helpdesk" application, and dozens of others, seems to me unworkable and near impossible. Yet somehow I need to identify the costs of providing our services. I know I can't be alone in facing this challenge and have faith that greater minds have examined this and have an answer (the magic pixie dust) or at least some pointers on how to start. Advice is welcome and appreciated. If I get sufficient responses, I'll gladly post a summary. -Linda Linda Drake Manager, Computing Systems Information Technology Services 455 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0455 Linda.Drake@Colorado.edu (303) 492-3864 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Jan 25 08:56:33 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0PGuXw09449 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 08:56:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <009601c2c492$4147a980$0501a8c0@palain> From: "Robert Dana" To: References: <044501c2c406$f04d97a0$35718a80@SPARKY> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Costing out of sysadmin services Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 11:53:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk My experience is more with costing services in a commercial service provider environment, but I think there's a rough parallel. Part of what I think you are asking for is an approach to structuring the costs. I'm assuming that for the most part the machines you are running are dedicated to the tasks they serve, and that you have some limited number of general platforms (hardware, OS, system software components). What has worked for me in the past is to think of the infrastructure in terms of layers, and then by "service". For example, we figured that there's a roughly consistent staff cost per-server for hardware maintenance for each general class of hardware, and calculated an average per-server hardware maintenance cost / month. Then, a certain class of tasks (applying patches, etc...) can be assigned to "OS maintenance", and should be roughly similar for all systems running a particular OS. Depending on how you handle it, you may include things like backups in this category as well. So, for example, you might create average monthly staff costs for maintaining a Solaris system, a Linux system, and a Windows system. Same thing holds true for the next layer: the application (web server, mail server, DNS server, etc...). Once you've done this, you can assign a basic per-server maintenance cost for each system. However, the specific use of a system can also dramatically impact administrative costs: a mail server that just routes mail is a lot easier to maintain than one that hosts a ton of mailboxes. So one final layer is needed: the "service" layer, which accounts for those use differences. This can either be structured like the previous layers as an additional measured "service maintenance" cost, or it might just be a fudge-factor multiplier (up or down). Coming up with a total service cost is then a matter of adding together the individual server maintenance costs for the machines that provide the service. This is traditionally known as a "bottoms up" analysis, since you are starting with granular costs and adding them up. A good sanity check is to do a parallel "top down" analysis, where you start with your total staff budget and try to segment it into various cost categories. If you're lucky, the bottoms up and top down numbers will roughly match, or if they are off, reflect extra hours that your staff may be working above and beyond the 40 hours / week you probably calculate your hourly staff costs with. If they don't match, the relative costs of the bottoms up services costs with respect to each other may still be informative. Unfortunately, I don't have any "magic pixie dust" for figuring out the low-level task costing... my experience is that takes a lot of grunt work, either by admins doing timesheets, or having someone follow around selected staff for a few days and tracking it for them. However, before you go hog wild on that kind of activity, think carefully about how accurate these numbers really need to be... your guestimates might be good enough. I'm not suggesting that you "fix" the numbers, but keep in mind that nobody outside your organization is going to have the expertise or data to question the low-level numbers, and in my experience the credibility will come from a well-defined and rational cost structure put into an attractive spreadsheet. It gives the financial folks and high-level decisionmakers something concrete to dig around, and shows that you've put some thought into it. Anyhoo, good luck. -Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda Drake" To: Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 7:15 PM Subject: [SAGE] Costing out of sysadmin services > We're in the unenviable but now common position of finding ourselves > faced with diminishing budgets but not diminishing workload or projects. > > I've struggled for some time to find a way to cost out our services so > that we can: (1) understand where our efforts go, as personnel is the > vast majority of our costs, and (2) present a convincing case for better > allocating existing resources or acquiring new funding. In summary, I > need to be able to answer the question: how much does service X cost to > provide? > > The challenge for me has been that sysadmins work in parallel on a > multitude of big and small tasks. It's not a profession where you have a > few major projects that occupy your time, and every day you take a few > moments to jot down how much time you spent on each project. As a > sysadmin, not only are you juggling a variety of tasks simultaneously, > the tasks themselves span a whole variety of services. As an example, a > set of patches is installed on all the platforms as part of one task. > Determining how much time of that effort went toward the "email" > service, the "web" service, the "directory" service, the "helpdesk" > application, and dozens of others, seems to me unworkable and near > impossible. > > Yet somehow I need to identify the costs of providing our services. I > know I can't be alone in facing this challenge and have faith that > greater minds have examined this and have an answer (the magic pixie > dust) or at least some pointers on how to start. Advice is welcome and > appreciated. If I get sufficient responses, I'll gladly post a summary. > > -Linda > > Linda Drake > Manager, Computing Systems > Information Technology Services > 455 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0455 > Linda.Drake@Colorado.edu > (303) 492-3864 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Jan 26 10:58:29 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0QIwSK08515 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jan 2003 10:58:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030126135433.02b96a50@corpmail.kodak.com> X-Sender: 124859@corpmail.kodak.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 13:58:09 -0500 To: "Robert Dana" , From: Rich Dempsey Subject: Re: [SAGE] Costing out of sysadmin services In-Reply-To: <009601c2c492$4147a980$0501a8c0@palain> References: <044501c2c406$f04d97a0$35718a80@SPARKY> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk These are excellent comments. I just wanted to add that there's some level of fixed cost. It costs more to patch the first server than subsequent ones. If you have some level of redundancy, whether to handle capacity or for availability, that first installation takes more effort than duplicates. It's good to be able to recognize that, so managers don't think that shutting down half the servers will save half the money. Rich At 11:53 AM 01/25/2003 -0500, Robert Dana wrote: >My experience is more with costing services in a commercial service provider >environment, but I think there's a rough parallel. Part of what I think you >are asking for is an approach to structuring the costs. I'm assuming that >for the most part the machines you are running are dedicated to the tasks >they serve, and that you have some limited number of general platforms >(hardware, OS, system software components). > >What has worked for me in the past is to think of the infrastructure in >terms of layers, and then by "service". For example, we figured that >there's a roughly consistent staff cost per-server for hardware maintenance >for each general class of hardware, and calculated an average per-server >hardware maintenance cost / month. Then, a certain class of tasks (applying >patches, etc...) can be assigned to "OS maintenance", and should be roughly >similar for all systems running a particular OS. Depending on how you >handle it, you may include things like backups in this category as well. >So, for example, you might create average monthly staff costs for >maintaining a Solaris system, a Linux system, and a Windows system. Same >thing holds true for the next layer: the application (web server, mail >server, DNS server, etc...). > >Once you've done this, you can assign a basic per-server maintenance cost >for each system. However, the specific use of a system can also >dramatically impact administrative costs: a mail server that just routes >mail is a lot easier to maintain than one that hosts a ton of mailboxes. So >one final layer is needed: the "service" layer, which accounts for those use >differences. This can either be structured like the previous layers as an >additional measured "service maintenance" cost, or it might just be a >fudge-factor multiplier (up or down). > >Coming up with a total service cost is then a matter of adding together the >individual server maintenance costs for the machines that provide the >service. This is traditionally known as a "bottoms up" analysis, since you >are starting with granular costs and adding them up. A good sanity check is >to do a parallel "top down" analysis, where you start with your total staff >budget and try to segment it into various cost categories. If you're lucky, >the bottoms up and top down numbers will roughly match, or if they are off, >reflect extra hours that your staff may be working above and beyond the 40 >hours / week you probably calculate your hourly staff costs with. If they >don't match, the relative costs of the bottoms up services costs with >respect to each other may still be informative. > >Unfortunately, I don't have any "magic pixie dust" for figuring out the >low-level task costing... my experience is that takes a lot of grunt work, >either by admins doing timesheets, or having someone follow around selected >staff for a few days and tracking it for them. However, before you go hog >wild on that kind of activity, think carefully about how accurate these >numbers really need to be... your guestimates might be good enough. I'm not >suggesting that you "fix" the numbers, but keep in mind that nobody outside >your organization is going to have the expertise or data to question the >low-level numbers, and in my experience the credibility will come from a >well-defined and rational cost structure put into an attractive spreadsheet. >It gives the financial folks and high-level decisionmakers something >concrete to dig around, and shows that you've put some thought into it. > >Anyhoo, good luck. > >-Robert > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Linda Drake" >To: >Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 7:15 PM >Subject: [SAGE] Costing out of sysadmin services > > >> We're in the unenviable but now common position of finding ourselves >> faced with diminishing budgets but not diminishing workload or projects. >> >> I've struggled for some time to find a way to cost out our services so >> that we can: (1) understand where our efforts go, as personnel is the >> vast majority of our costs, and (2) present a convincing case for better >> allocating existing resources or acquiring new funding. In summary, I >> need to be able to answer the question: how much does service X cost to >> provide? >> >> The challenge for me has been that sysadmins work in parallel on a >> multitude of big and small tasks. It's not a profession where you have a >> few major projects that occupy your time, and every day you take a few >> moments to jot down how much time you spent on each project. As a >> sysadmin, not only are you juggling a variety of tasks simultaneously, >> the tasks themselves span a whole variety of services. As an example, a >> set of patches is installed on all the platforms as part of one task. >> Determining how much time of that effort went toward the "email" >> service, the "web" service, the "directory" service, the "helpdesk" >> application, and dozens of others, seems to me unworkable and near >> impossible. >> >> Yet somehow I need to identify the costs of providing our services. I >> know I can't be alone in facing this challenge and have faith that >> greater minds have examined this and have an answer (the magic pixie >> dust) or at least some pointers on how to start. Advice is welcome and >> appreciated. If I get sufficient responses, I'll gladly post a summary. >> >> -Linda >> >> Linda Drake >> Manager, Computing Systems >> Information Technology Services >> 455 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0455 >> Linda.Drake@Colorado.edu >> (303) 492-3864 -- Richard C. Dempsey email: dempsey@kodak.com Kodak.com pager: 585-975-3539 3rd Floor, Bldg 16, KO phone: 585-781-5232 Eastman Kodak Company Rochester, NY 14650-0706 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 29 17:59:33 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0U1xWB14746 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:59:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:59:21 -0800 (PST) From: Rea Simpson To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I'd like to hear from those of you who run Solaris shops to find out what you do when it's time to move to the next version of the OS. For all of our production servers we've always built a new machine with the new OS and migrated to it. We haven't actually upgraded the OS on the box in place. What do others do and why do you do it that way? Thanks in advance, Rea Simpson From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 29 19:07:27 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0U37RK15436 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:07:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:06:55 -0600 From: "Mark D. Roth" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris Message-ID: <20030129210655.A30028@yorktown.isdn.uiuc.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from rea@jackson.llnl.gov on Wed, Jan 29, 2003 at 05:59:21PM -0800 Organization: Feep Networks X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed Jan 29 17:59 2003 -0800, Rea Simpson wrote: > I'd like to hear from those of you who run Solaris shops to > find out what you do when it's time to move to the next > version of the OS. > > For all of our production servers we've always built a > new machine with the new OS and migrated to it. We > haven't actually upgraded the OS on the box in place. > > What do others do and why do you do it that way? We almost always build a new environment on a seperate machine and migrate to it. I don't do OS upgrades because I don't like any operation that I can't back out of if there's a problem. In some cases, you can simulate a "back out" operation by restoring a backup from before the upgrade, but that can be fairly complicated if the machine has a lot of frequently-modified user data. It can also be time-consuming, depending the speed of your backup system. As a result, I try to avoid this option whenever possible. -- Mark D. Roth http://www.feep.net/~roth/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 29 19:10:11 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0U3ABT15658 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:10:11 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [199.222.167.101] From: "Scott Frost" To: rea@jackson.llnl.gov, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 03:10:04 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jan 2003 03:10:04.0780 (UTC) FILETIME=[15ED52C0:01C2C80D] X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Rea, I've worked in shops that do both and prefer to reinstall the OS. I do it because fo a number of reasons: 1. It's a good time to clean up an existing system and rid the OS of all the junk files that don't normally get deleted 2. It's a good time to re-tune a system because OS enhancements can impact how a server runs from version to version. 3. I don't always trust that the applications that are installed on version X understand the new files that are created by version Y. I have experienced instances where the upgrade updated files and removed/alter configurations that caused application problems later. Usually the changes are minor and hard to troubleshoot. I've gone to new version via both methods and know they both work fine. However, unless I have time constraints I always will rebuild versus doing an upgrade. Thanks, Scott Frost >From: Rea Simpson >To: sage-members@usenix.org >Subject: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris >Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:59:21 -0800 (PST) > >I'd like to hear from those of you who run Solaris shops to >find out what you do when it's time to move to the next >version of the OS. > >For all of our production servers we've always built a >new machine with the new OS and migrated to it. We >haven't actually upgraded the OS on the box in place. > >What do others do and why do you do it that way? > >Thanks in advance, >Rea Simpson _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 29 19:25:19 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0U3PJP15942 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:25:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: goodall.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:25:11 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: Rea Simpson cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Rea Simpson wrote: > I'd like to hear from those of you who run Solaris shops to > find out what you do when it's time to move to the next > version of the OS. > > For all of our production servers we've always built a > new machine with the new OS and migrated to it. We > haven't actually upgraded the OS on the box in place. > > What do others do and why do you do it that way? > I've always done exactly the same thing. It ensures a clean, sane install eliminating any cruft that may have built up. It also ensures that your infrastructure for building the machines is kept up to date. However, LiveUpgrade does do some nice things.. I've become a big fan of Flash though. The install, including patches, customizations, etc, takes about 10 minutes. Another advantage: I like to use a spare machine of same (or better!) hardware configuration. That way, if something goes wrong, it's trivial to fall back to the original. In an in-place upgrade you don't have that option. (You can somewhat hedge your bets by breaking any OS level mirroring you might have if you have DiskSuite or Veritas and saving that as a fallback. There is still a point of no return though.) Doug From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 29 19:41:56 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0U3fuV16231 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:41:56 -0800 (PST) To: Rea Simpson Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris Reply-To: "Sean J. Schluntz" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:59:21 PST." Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:43:52 -0800 Message-ID: <1895.1043898232@greywolf.workofstone.net> From: "Sean J. Schluntz" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >For all of our production servers we've always built a >new machine with the new OS and migrated to it. We >haven't actually upgraded the OS on the box in place. I agree with you and the others that building a new box or rebuilding an existing box is good thing. In our shop we can't always do that, we have a lot of systems which we had to move from 2.6 to 8 over the existing build. We have had some luck with it. One thing we are moving to is having a seperate upgrade disk and using JumpStart to do the upgrades. If you have a mirror of your OS, you can upgrade that and then switch over to it. If it doesn't work, you switch back. No backout needed, I like the safty net. -Sean From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 30 02:55:53 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0UAtr108892 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 02:55:53 -0800 (PST) From: Carl Schelin Organization: NASA Headquarters To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 05:52:36 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <03013005523675.02506@unixgod.hq.nasa.gov> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wednesday 29 January 2003 20:59, Rea Simpson wrote: > I'd like to hear from those of you who run Solaris shops to > find out what you do when it's time to move to the next > version of the OS. > > For all of our production servers we've always built a > new machine with the new OS and migrated to it. We > haven't actually upgraded the OS on the box in place. > > What do others do and why do you do it that way? > We have constraints on bringing hardware in so we've upgraded in place for the most part. In the last round of upgrades we went to 7 and other than a few partition size issues there were no problems. We're getting ready to upgrade again but this time we're looking at replacing equipment, partly because of the age of some of the equipment (Sparc 2, a couple of Sparc 5's, some intel systems and sparc 10/20's mainly). Carl -- Carl Schelin (BOFH, Badlife, DNRC, Sun CSA/CNA, Cisco CNA/CNP, '02 FXSTI) finger cschelin@x500.hq.nasa.gov for phone and address From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 30 04:34:24 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0UCYN109589 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 04:34:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 06:34:58 -0600 From: Pete Ehlke To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris Message-ID: <20030130123458.GA22892@rfc822.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Jan 29, 2003 at 09:25:11PM -0600, Doug Hughes wrote: > > However, LiveUpgrade does do some nice things.. > > I've become a big fan of Flash though. The install, including patches, > customizations, etc, takes about 10 minutes. > Hear, hear. A lot of people I know have been put off by the marketspeak attached to Flash and LiveUpgrade. Don't make that mistake. If you haven't looked at them yet, find some Copious Free Time soon to do so. You'll be very glad you did. LiveUpgrade makes patching production systems a breeze. No downtime to do the patching, and backing out involves nothing more than rebooting back in to the unpatched image. -P. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 30 06:14:33 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0UEEW810201 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 06:14:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 08:14:29 -0600 From: Mike Ekholm To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris Message-ID: <20030130141429.GA25997@ekholm.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Jan 29, 2003 at 05:59:21PM -0800, Rea Simpson wrote: > I'd like to hear from those of you who run Solaris shops to > find out what you do when it's time to move to the next > version of the OS. In the past we have done clean installs, but a good year ago we came up with a consistent jumpstart image and process, so we are at the point where all of our machines look the same. When we setup the jumpstart process, we made the partitions big enough to handle solaris 8, 9, 10 and beyond. So the last round of upgrades, we went with Live Upgrade to get several boxes up to Solaris 2.8. No real issues poped up. For machines that need a good house cleaning or do not conform to our standard jumpstart goodies, get rebuilt instead of upgraded. -Mike Ekholm -- Mike Ekholm, UNIX Sys Admin - ekholm@ekholm.org web: http://www.ekholm.org ham: kc0mpu irc: Nalez ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ UNIX - The Swiss army knife of software. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 30 10:51:29 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0UIpTj12994 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 10:51:29 -0800 (PST) To: cschelin@hq.nasa.gov Cc: owner-sage-members@usenix.org, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.5 September 22, 2000 Message-ID: From: susan.diller@kodak.com Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:50:58 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on KNOTES2/ISBP/EKC(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 01/30/2003 01:51:17 PM, Serialize complete at 01/30/2003 01:51:17 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I prefer to do a clean install. I can then create a new baseline to use with security monitoring tools, such as, tripwire or fcheck. - Sue Carl Schelin Sent by: owner-sage-members@usenix.org 01/30/2003 05:52 AM To: sage-members@usenix.org cc: Subject: Re: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris On Wednesday 29 January 2003 20:59, Rea Simpson wrote: > I'd like to hear from those of you who run Solaris shops to > find out what you do when it's time to move to the next > version of the OS. > > For all of our production servers we've always built a > new machine with the new OS and migrated to it. We > haven't actually upgraded the OS on the box in place. > > What do others do and why do you do it that way? > We have constraints on bringing hardware in so we've upgraded in place for the most part. In the last round of upgrades we went to 7 and other than a few partition size issues there were no problems. We're getting ready to upgrade again but this time we're looking at replacing equipment, partly because of the age of some of the equipment (Sparc 2, a couple of Sparc 5's, some intel systems and sparc 10/20's mainly). Carl -- Carl Schelin (BOFH, Badlife, DNRC, Sun CSA/CNA, Cisco CNA/CNP, '02 FXSTI) finger cschelin@x500.hq.nasa.gov for phone and address From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 30 12:02:04 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0UK23b13788 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:02:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:01:32 -0600 From: Blayne Puklich Reply-To: Blayne Puklich To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris Message-ID: <2147483647.1043935292@slip-32-103-141-115.mn.us.prserv.net> In-Reply-To: <20030130123458.GA22892@rfc822.net> References: <20030130123458.GA22892@rfc822.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.0 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --On Thursday, January 30, 2003 6:34 AM -0600 Pete Ehlke wrote: > On Wed, Jan 29, 2003 at 09:25:11PM -0600, Doug Hughes wrote: >> >> However, LiveUpgrade does do some nice things.. >> >> I've become a big fan of Flash though. The install, including patches, >> customizations, etc, takes about 10 minutes. >> > Hear, hear. A lot of people I know have been put off by the marketspeak > attached to Flash and LiveUpgrade. Don't make that mistake. If you > haven't looked at them yet, find some Copious Free Time soon to do so. > You'll be very glad you did. > > LiveUpgrade makes patching production systems a breeze. No downtime to > do the patching, and backing out involves nothing more than rebooting > back in to the unpatched image. > > -P. Using Live Upgrade with Flash to do a clean install and doing your preconfiguration or copying before you take your outage to just do a couple simple reboots (and mirroring of your system disk) is probably one of the best reasons for using LU and Flash in combination. As Pete mentioned, complete backout is possible by just booting your old system disk(s). The process works best when you have OS and data separated, and you'll need at least a single spare disk with which to do the LU-flash to. Generally we have four per system: two active mirrored system disks and the others are a spare and new boot environment disk. You could probably get by with three though. I've done lots of these and it's damn slick. One simple warning: LU is *not* intended to be used for mounting a boot environment that has any form of volume management in place (such as a previous boot enviornment with VxVM mirrored system disks). Any boot environment that you mount should be a single, simple disk otherwise you'll likely panic the system. But don't let this scare you; you can always mount the underlying slices if you need to. --- Blayne Puklich Minneapolis, MN PGP Key ID: 0xC52CA6C1 * mailto:blayne at puklich.com * Pager: 888/437-8109 I'd explain it to you, but your brain would explode. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 30 13:32:28 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0ULWSR14814 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:32:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:32:24 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris Message-ID: <20030130213224.GA23766@snew.com> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <1895.1043898232@greywolf.workofstone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1895.1043898232@greywolf.workofstone.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Sean J. Schluntz (schluntz@greywolf.workofstone.net): > > >For all of our production servers we've always built a > >new machine with the new OS and migrated to it. We > >haven't actually upgraded the OS on the box in place. > > I agree with you and the others that building a new box or rebuilding > an existing box is good thing. In our shop we can't always do that, > we have a lot of systems which we had to move from 2.6 to 8 over the > existing build. We have had some luck with it. One thing we are moving > to is having a seperate upgrade disk and using JumpStart to do the upgrades. > If you have a mirror of your OS, you can upgrade that and then switch over > to it. If it doesn't work, you switch back. No backout needed, I like > the safty net. I can be fairly religious about separation of disks. There is a boot disk. It only has boot things. 1-2GB is ideal. More space can be used for cruft, but not production data. Sources and temp stuff goes on the spare boot disk partition. Nothing I can't afford to lose (and expect to lose). If I must upgrade in place, I can replace the boot disk. /etc/ can nicely be kept in CVS - very handy at times when things "change" in undescribable ways. cf-engine is a nice way to automate changes -- put things in /etc/services that should be there, clean out inetd.conf from ALL THE CRAP that sun leaves on, turn off most of /etc/rc2.d/ etc. What's also nice about it is on the ideal system, if you run it, or run it in "show only mode" (-n), nothing will change. This means that if you have a cf-engine script for a machine and run it every 4 hours, nothing will get changed unless someone broke it. I found it when i kept having to deploy SunOS 4.1.x boxes and spend 45 minutes pulling down (RPM) packages to install on it (RPM was platform independant and free) and then an hour configuring it to not be so brutally wide open. cf-engine would, in one pass, let me shove users into /etc/passwd, fix /etc/group, remove /etc/hosts.equiv, clean inetd.conf, make /etc/ owned by root not bin, etc. It can configure things per machine: mydb.domain.com gets init scripts to turn on SQL, configure apache, install a real SNMP agent and configure it, etc, etc. It's still a great thing to run after JumpStart as a post-install script. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 30 13:40:57 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0ULeui15115 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:40:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:40:55 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris Message-ID: <20030130134055.A68082@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <20030130123458.GA22892@rfc822.net> <2147483647.1043935292@slip-32-103-141-115.mn.us.prserv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1043935292@slip-32-103-141-115.mn.us.prserv.net>; from blayne@puklich.com on Thu, Jan 30, 2003 at 02:01:32PM -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jan 30, 2003 at 02:01:32PM -0600, Blayne Puklich wrote: > ... > One simple warning: LU is *not* intended to be used for mounting a boot > environment that has any form of volume management in place (such as a > previous boot enviornment with VxVM mirrored system disks). Any boot > environment that you mount should be a single, simple disk otherwise you'll > likely panic the system. unless you're going to move to solaris 9, and you are using disksuite... I heard that sun now supports doing upgrades with disksuite handled disks, although I've never tried the proceedure myself. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 30 14:10:36 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0UMAaK15677 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:10:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:10:33 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris Message-ID: <20030130221033.GC23766@snew.com> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <20030130123458.GA22892@rfc822.net> <2147483647.1043935292@slip-32-103-141-115.mn.us.prserv.net> <20030130134055.A68082@bolthole.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030130134055.A68082@bolthole.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk And upgrading systems to Solaris 8 at this point is just silly (unless it's a Sun4m). Solaris 9 has been out for a while, it's solid, it's in production and has benefits. It won't go away for a while. The only reason to stick with Solaris 8 is if you have software that doesn't run on it. And vendors who don't support Solaris 9 at this point should be smacked about. Quoting Philip Brown (phil@bolthole.com): > On Thu, Jan 30, 2003 at 02:01:32PM -0600, Blayne Puklich wrote: > > ... > > One simple warning: LU is *not* intended to be used for mounting a boot > > environment that has any form of volume management in place (such as a > > previous boot enviornment with VxVM mirrored system disks). Any boot > > environment that you mount should be a single, simple disk otherwise you'll > > likely panic the system. > > unless you're going to move to solaris 9, and you are using disksuite... > I heard that sun now supports doing upgrades with disksuite handled disks, > although I've never tried the procedure myself. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 30 14:30:22 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0UMUMU16132 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:30:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:30:12 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Costing out of sysadmin services Message-ID: <20030130223012.GD23766@snew.com> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <044501c2c406$f04d97a0$35718a80@SPARKY> <5.1.0.14.2.20030126135433.02b96a50@corpmail.kodak.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030126135433.02b96a50@corpmail.kodak.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Rich Dempsey (dempsey@kodak.com): > These are excellent comments. I just wanted to add that there's some level > of fixed cost. It costs more to patch the first server than subsequent ones. > If you have some level of redundancy, whether to handle capacity or for > availability, that first installation takes more effort than duplicates. > It's good to be able to recognize that, so managers don't think that shutting > down half the servers will save half the money. And this is an area where outsources (and OS vendors) can make some money. If I have tools that let me patch all of my client's machines quickly and better than the 'stock' way, I should benefit over the guys who have to do it by hand. Customers sometimes don't "get this." Analogously, my client may not be able to quickly migrate mail users from one system to another, but I've done it for enough clients that I have tools that help me. If I charge the client a fair amount to come in and used these tools I've developed, then I should benefit. If the client were to hire someone else who didn't have these tools, they'd pay the same and someone else might work harder. The end result is the same. So if you hire someone to maintain stuff and they can come in with their patch-o-matic system that take care of it, so they virtually never have to show up, they should make the same as the folks who send in a java programmer and a couple system admins to do the same work. Service level agreements are helpful to this. I don't care that you need 2 or 30 people to keep my systems running. The folks using 30 people shouldn't get more money because they are less efficient. Plenty of large consulting companies have the habit of justifying high costs by sending in the army of inexperienced people. When a "programmer" asked the difference between a .c and .h file as I helped him learn "make", I went ballistic when I found we were not paying for the PROJECT, but rather PER PERSON on the project. It costs about X per basic service and Y per machine running than service. Good sites (ideally) pay less for each new machine running an existing service. 4 MTAs doesn't really cost much more than running 2 MTAs. Cutting 6 web servers to 3 won't halve the costs. With good practices (CVS and cfengine for config management, sup or similar for binary management, and jumpstart-like systems), building MORE of some service is often quite simple. Also, reduced budget may be ok with slower response times. Not having a hot spare for each service, for example, might be ok if you have 1 spare available to be jumpstarted into whatever role you need. Jumping a machine to be a mailserver or database server or desktop might be okay in a firefighting mode and cost less than keeping 3 machines around. It means 45 minutes for recovery vs 5. But nobody win in costs, I've found because so much is just lost in the noise. That good guy of there might just be there to help manage servers, but he may also be the one of whome programmers ask questions. The loss of resources that might answer "what's a good way to solve THIS problem" just doesn't get accounted for. I've seen layoffs where you lose 3 guys, but that loss also means no "go to" guys for sa's and programmers and those folks are less productive. And it's hard to peg down why on paper. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 30 16:51:39 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0V0pdh17614 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:51:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris From: Mark McCullough To: Philip Brown Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <20030130134055.A68082@bolthole.com> References: <20030130123458.GA22892@rfc822.net> <2147483647.1043935292@slip-32-103-141-115.mn.us.prserv.net> <20030130134055.A68082@bolthole.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-m8DJMpUV9Co55+Wm9MtW" X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 (1.0.8-10) Date: 30 Jan 2003 18:51:55 -0600 Message-Id: <1043974316.27410.8.camel@starfury> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --=-m8DJMpUV9Co55+Wm9MtW Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2003-01-30 at 15:40, Philip Brown wrote: > On Thu, Jan 30, 2003 at 02:01:32PM -0600, Blayne Puklich wrote: > > ... > > One simple warning: LU is *not* intended to be used for mounting a boot= =20 > > environment that has any form of volume management in place (such as a=20 > > previous boot enviornment with VxVM mirrored system disks). Any boot=20 > > environment that you mount should be a single, simple disk otherwise yo= u'll=20 > > likely panic the system. >=20 > unless you're going to move to solaris 9, and you are using disksuite... > I heard that sun now supports doing upgrades with disksuite handled disks= , > although I've never tried the proceedure myself. I recently did a major Solaris upgrade to Solaris 8 (Okay, my employer moves slowly in OS upgrades) using LU. Even with Veritas Volume Manager, the procedure worked quite smoothly. The only gotcha was to talk to Veritas first and they have an entire technote on how to do the procedure. The scary part is doing an "upgrade_start" just prior to making the lu image then running an "upgrade_finish" to undo those changes. However, that's all one has to do that maintenance window.=20 (It is however a disruptive change, so be careful). Then one can leisurely do an lu_upgrade to upgrade the lu image. I know a lot of people have had problems with upgrading Solaris, but I've had good luck overall with upgrades. There is enough customization for a fresh install that we can't ever afford the application downtime involved in getting it all cleaned up prior to our online time starting. (And yes, we are using cfengine, but we need to use it more than we are.) Supposedly with the upcoming versions of Veritas Volume Manager and Live Upgrade they will be mutually aware of each other and be clean. --=20 mmccul@earthlink.net Mark McCullough "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that=20 we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only=20 unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American=20 public." (Theodore Roosevelt, 1918) --=-m8DJMpUV9Co55+Wm9MtW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQA+OcirLt0nxEAuAy8RAvg8AJ0fi/ZO6kfD4mm4ex1RR+FqyD3FFACeLPlG d/er7T6lY/HbLfYQ5Mse+yk= =scE8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-m8DJMpUV9Co55+Wm9MtW-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 30 17:39:12 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0V1dC318289 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:39:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [SAGE] remote access From: Michael Noble To: Sage Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8-3mdk Date: 30 Jan 2003 17:39:05 -0800 Message-Id: <1043977145.16535.6.camel@dragonrider> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We are trying to find an isp for dialup access for people who are traveling within the US and overseas. I would like to find out what service providers others have used which will give local numbers within the US and in other companies. Service would need to allow multiple people to access the service at the same time. We would like to have one account for this and not several bills for each person traveling. Thanks in advance, Mike -- Michael Noble mailto: mgnoble@cox.net From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 30 17:54:33 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0V1sWx18595 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:54:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 20:54:29 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: Sage Subject: Re: [SAGE] remote access Message-ID: <20030131015429.GA26191@snew.com> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , Sage References: <1043977145.16535.6.camel@dragonrider> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1043977145.16535.6.camel@dragonrider> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Michael Noble (mgnoble@cox.net): > We are trying to find an isp for dialup access for people who are > traveling within the US and overseas. I would like to find out > what service providers others have used which will give local > numbers within the US and in other companies. Service would need > to allow multiple people to access the service at the same time. We > would like to have one account for this and not several bills for each > person traveling. I'll presume there's a question in there and it's not just venting a list of requirements for the sake of it. I've often found that the people who are truly overseas are the minority. And that getting a US-only ISP for most people gives me more choices and competition. Those who also need "overseas" access can have an additional account for that use. One of our guys was either in the US (west mostly) or in the UK. Giving him a more expensive account that also happened to work in Bangladesh wasn't necessary. I found that mostly I was near home (Calif) or in NYC. I got a locally owned ISP in NYC to give me decent rate given that I either used it a lot for 2 weeks or didn't use it at all. I've also found that the more widely deployed the ISP, the worse the customer service. Down to "here's an .exe with all our dialup numbers." That's AT&T, but my Mac doesn't run that. That is, when my non-I.E. browser worked on their site. Getting PPP going from BSD was a bear. If you truly *do* need an everywhere account, you'll find those options pretty limited: IBM and AT&T as I recall. Where service is pretty mediocre. Plus all those damn phone adapters and converters for .fr and .it and who knows where else. chuck From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 30 17:56:57 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0V1uvb18809 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:56:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3FA493B792A6D311B51A009027D3B861013A49D2@mail.kgi.edu> From: Dennis Viner To: "'Michael Noble'" , Sage Subject: RE: [SAGE] remote access Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:56:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Check UUnet (Worldcom). An account rep told me they'd do that, but they won't issue multiple logins and the billing would only show total hours used. Dennis Viner Network and Systems Administrator Keck Graduate Institute > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Noble [mailto:mgnoble@cox.net] > Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 5:39 PM > To: Sage > Subject: [SAGE] remote access > > > We are trying to find an isp for dialup access for people who are > traveling within the US and overseas. I would like to find out > what service providers others have used which will give local > numbers within the US and in other companies. Service would need > to allow multiple people to access the service at the same time. We > would like to have one account for this and not several bills for each > person traveling. > > Thanks in advance, > Mike > -- > Michael Noble > mailto: mgnoble@cox.net > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 30 18:11:39 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0V2Bd419133 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:11:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <367C011C07C1EE4B90C684299E10901F0FF49B@exchange.mda.ca> From: John LLOYD To: Michael Noble , Sage Subject: RE: [SAGE] remote access Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:11:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Compuserve. Phone numbers every where, including very small towns in the Netherlands. You can get a corporate admin account from which you can create/enable/destroy accounts per person, and get a corporate billing. --John > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Noble [mailto:mgnoble@cox.net] > Sent: January 30, 2003 5:39 PM > To: Sage > Subject: [SAGE] remote access > > > We are trying to find an isp for dialup access for people who are > traveling within the US and overseas. I would like to find out > what service providers others have used which will give local > numbers within the US and in other companies. Service would need > to allow multiple people to access the service at the same time. We > would like to have one account for this and not several bills for each > person traveling. > > Thanks in advance, > Mike > -- > Michael Noble > mailto: mgnoble@cox.net > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 30 18:44:29 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0V2iTI19530 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:44:29 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: From: "John Arrasjid" To: "'Michael Noble'" , "'Sage'" Subject: RE: [SAGE] remote access Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:33:27 -0800 Message-ID: <001401c2c8d1$230a68c0$500311ac@arrasjid.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1043977145.16535.6.camel@dragonrider> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk iPass is very good. I've used them at a number of companies and they have access numbers in pretty much every country on the planet. Cost is variable based on the number of users you sign up and total monthly usage. It is all tied into a radius server at your company that can be tied to Active Directory, LDAP or NIS I believe. john -----Original Message----- From: owner-sage-members@usenix.org [mailto:owner-sage-members@usenix.org]On Behalf Of Michael Noble Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 5:39 PM To: Sage Subject: [SAGE] remote access We are trying to find an isp for dialup access for people who are traveling within the US and overseas. I would like to find out what service providers others have used which will give local numbers within the US and in other companies. Service would need to allow multiple people to access the service at the same time. We would like to have one account for this and not several bills for each person traveling. Thanks in advance, Mike -- Michael Noble mailto: mgnoble@cox.net From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 30 20:05:13 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0V45D520162 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 20:05:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 20:05:09 -0800 From: "Paul M. Moriarty" To: Michael Noble Cc: Sage Subject: Re: [SAGE] remote access Message-ID: <20030131040509.GA24632@igtc.igtc.com> References: <1043977145.16535.6.camel@dragonrider> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1043977145.16535.6.camel@dragonrider> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I have been looking at this exact problem and have been leaning toward Infonet's offering, but have yet to make a final selection. http://www.infonet.com/services/access/remote_access.asp The big differentiator from the other mentioned solutions, in my mind, is the first 50 hours are pre-paid as part of the monthly fee per user. For my site, this eliminates most of the variable cost associated with global roaming. #include - Paul - Michael Noble writes: > We are trying to find an isp for dialup access for people who are > traveling within the US and overseas. I would like to find out > what service providers others have used which will give local > numbers within the US and in other companies. Service would need > to allow multiple people to access the service at the same time. We > would like to have one account for this and not several bills for each > person traveling. > > Thanks in advance, > Mike > -- > Michael Noble > mailto: mgnoble@cox.net From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 30 20:32:22 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0V4WLq20549 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 20:32:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <01b601c2c8e1$bc09a260$0501a8c0@palain> From: "Robert Dana" To: "Michael Noble" , "Sage" References: <1043977145.16535.6.camel@dragonrider> Subject: Re: [SAGE] remote access Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 23:32:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Aside from AT&T, IBM, Infonet, UUNet and Compuserve (which have already been mentioned), the other company I'm aware of with very widespread global dialup access is Equant. I haven't looked at their pricing recently, but they have access in wicked-obscure places because of their heritage as a spinoff from SITA, the alliance which was put together by the airlines for their global networking needs way back when. Interesting story- a company I used to work for used Equant's global dialup services (then completely X.25-based) to provide local dialup access to our customers worldwide. Equant had PADs in nearly every country with international airline service, and had special exemptions to service airports in some places with oppressive regimes which otherwise banned outside connectivity. Those PADs were supposed to be limited strictly to travel industry use, but I don't think there was a technical access control- if you knew the local number and had a valid Equant ID, you could get out. That list of "black" numbers wasn't supposed to be published, but we would occasasionally see in our access logs that someone had managed to find them out and connect. We were amused / awed by the fact that they would literally risk life and limb to get access to their e-mail. -Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Noble" To: "Sage" Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 8:39 PM Subject: [SAGE] remote access > We are trying to find an isp for dialup access for people who are > traveling within the US and overseas. I would like to find out > what service providers others have used which will give local > numbers within the US and in other companies. Service would need > to allow multiple people to access the service at the same time. We > would like to have one account for this and not several bills for each > person traveling. > > Thanks in advance, > Mike > -- > Michael Noble > mailto: mgnoble@cox.net From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 31 00:39:17 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0V8dHg22034 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jan 2003 00:39:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E3A3627.6070509@snert.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:39:03 +0100 From: Anthony Howe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030127 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sage Subject: Re: [SAGE] remote access References: <1043977145.16535.6.camel@dragonrider> In-Reply-To: <1043977145.16535.6.camel@dragonrider> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Michael Noble wrote: > We are trying to find an isp for dialup access for people who are > traveling within the US and overseas. I would like to find out http://www.freedomlist.com/ -- Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus "Will the real email please stand up..." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 31 01:14:45 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0V9Ejb22494 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jan 2003 01:14:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:14:37 +0000 (UTC) From: Robert Hajime Lanning X-X-Sender: lanning@hamner.monsoonwind.com Reply-To: lanning@lanning.cc To: John LLOYD cc: Michael Noble , Sage Subject: RE: [SAGE] remote access In-Reply-To: <367C011C07C1EE4B90C684299E10901F0FF49B@exchange.mda.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Compuserve is UUNet. You basicaly have: UUNet (MCI/Worldcom) AT&T IPASS (conglomeration of small ISPs) The company I work for has looked into this. We had a requirement that dialup users can access Novell via IPX. So we ended up with IPLink from UUNet (formerly the Compuserve network.) We are now dropping this service and going to the Internet access only (via UUNet), with corporate access via VPN. IPLink was costing us way to much for just to get the IPX protocol routed across the link. On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, John LLOYD wrote: > Compuserve. Phone numbers every where, including very small towns in the > Netherlands. You can get a corporate admin account from which you can > create/enable/destroy accounts per person, and get a corporate billing. > > > --John > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michael Noble [mailto:mgnoble@cox.net] > > Sent: January 30, 2003 5:39 PM > > To: Sage > > Subject: [SAGE] remote access > > > > > > We are trying to find an isp for dialup access for people who are > > traveling within the US and overseas. I would like to find out > > what service providers others have used which will give local > > numbers within the US and in other companies. Service would need > > to allow multiple people to access the service at the same time. We > > would like to have one account for this and not several bills for each > > person traveling. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Mike > > -- > > Michael Noble > > mailto: mgnoble@cox.net > > > > > -- END OF LINE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 31 07:03:13 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0VF3D414667 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jan 2003 07:03:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:59:27 -0600 From: Blayne Puklich Reply-To: Blayne Puklich To: sage-members@usenix.org cc: Philip Brown , Mark McCullough Subject: Re: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris Message-ID: <2147483647.1044003567@slip-32-103-141-16.mn.us.prserv.net> In-Reply-To: <1043974316.27410.8.camel@starfury> References: <20030130123458.GA22892@rfc822.net> <2147483647.1043935292@slip-32-103-141-115.mn.us.prserv.net> <20030130134055.A68082@bolthole.com> <1043974316.27410.8.camel@starfury> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.0 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Just so folks know, it doesn't matter if the original boot environment is mirrored or not, under VxVM or SDS control, or Solaris 2.6 or 8. Solaris' Live Upgrade will copy it to your new boot environment, which is a single, simple disk, just fine. Then you can Flash the new boot environment to do your upgrade if you wish. There's really nothing special you need to do at all; upgrade_start shouldn't really be necessary in this case. It'll do the right thing to the new boot environment when it comes to VxVM or SDS (pretty much; you still should disable VxVM if you're not flashing, and comment stuff out of the new boot environment's vfstab until you're positive things are working). You will of course need to mirror your system disk in the new boot environment when you're done using whatever you like. My point is that if you try to mount an alternate boot environment using lumount and that boot environment is under VxVM control (such as an encapsulated root) you'll likely panic the running system. LU really, really wants to work with simple slices when it comes to boot environments that aren't currently active. Given that, go ahead and use Live Upgrade with Flash already! ;^{ --On Thursday, January 30, 2003 6:51 PM -0600 Mark McCullough wrote: > On Thu, 2003-01-30 at 15:40, Philip Brown wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 30, 2003 at 02:01:32PM -0600, Blayne Puklich wrote: >> > ... >> > One simple warning: LU is *not* intended to be used for mounting a >> > boot environment that has any form of volume management in place >> > (such as a previous boot enviornment with VxVM mirrored system >> > disks). Any boot environment that you mount should be a single, >> > simple disk otherwise you'll likely panic the system. >> >> unless you're going to move to solaris 9, and you are using disksuite... >> I heard that sun now supports doing upgrades with disksuite handled >> disks, although I've never tried the proceedure myself. > > I recently did a major Solaris upgrade to Solaris 8 (Okay, my employer > moves slowly in OS upgrades) using LU. Even with Veritas Volume > Manager, the procedure worked quite smoothly. The only gotcha was to > talk to Veritas first and they have an entire technote on how to do the > procedure. The scary part is doing an "upgrade_start" just prior to > making the lu image then running an "upgrade_finish" to undo those > changes. However, that's all one has to do that maintenance window. > (It is however a disruptive change, so be careful). Then one can > leisurely do an lu_upgrade to upgrade the lu image. I know a lot of > people have had problems with upgrading Solaris, but I've had good luck > overall with upgrades. There is enough customization for a fresh > install that we can't ever afford the application downtime involved in > getting it all cleaned up prior to our online time starting. (And yes, > we are using cfengine, but we need to use it more than we are.) > > Supposedly with the upcoming versions of Veritas Volume Manager and Live > Upgrade they will be mutually aware of each other and be clean. > > -- > mmccul@earthlink.net Mark McCullough > "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that > we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only > unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American > public." (Theodore Roosevelt, 1918) --- Blayne Puklich Minneapolis, MN PGP Key ID: 0xC52CA6C1 * mailto:blayne at puklich.com * Pager: 888/437-8109 I'd explain it to you, but your brain would explode. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 31 07:38:10 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0VFcAf15138 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jan 2003 07:38:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E3A9854.6020007@wn.net> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:37:56 -0500 From: Robert Haskins Organization: WorldNET User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sage CC: mgnoble@cox.net Subject: Re: [SAGE] remote access References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -- DISCLAIMER: IPASS, GRiC and Qwest are customers of the company I work for; others mentioned by me may be as well -- As an employee of a company who provides wholesale dial up to others, I think I can weigh in on this topic. What this question really boils down to is: 1) How much dial up time are you going to use? 2) Where are your users going to be dialing in from? If you are talking about thousands of hours per month, then you should be able to approach any one of the big carriers (AT&T, WorldCom, Sprint, Qwest, Level3, etc.) with decent coverage areas and get reduced domestic US and world rates without too much difficulty. If you are smaller than a few thousand hours a month, then it makes sense to go to one of the aggregators (IPASS and GRiC are the largest and well known, who DO buy wholesale ports BTW) and buy from them. The downside here is the fact that you will pay more as opposed to used a "big" carrier. My suggestion would be to answer the two questions I listed above, and approach a big carrier and an aggregator, and compare your bottom line price and features. But you cannot compare pricing without knowing how much and from where you will be using the service. Robert Hajime Lanning wrote: > Compuserve is UUNet. > > You basicaly have: > UUNet (MCI/Worldcom) > AT&T > IPASS (conglomeration of small ISPs) > > The company I work for has looked into this. We had a requirement that > dialup users can access Novell via IPX. So we ended up with IPLink from > UUNet (formerly the Compuserve network.) We are now dropping this service > and going to the Internet access only (via UUNet), with corporate access > via VPN. IPLink was costing us way to much for just to get the IPX protocol > routed across the link. > > On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, John LLOYD wrote: > > >>Compuserve. Phone numbers every where, including very small towns in the >>Netherlands. You can get a corporate admin account from which you can >>create/enable/destroy accounts per person, and get a corporate billing. >> >> >>--John >> >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Michael Noble [mailto:mgnoble@cox.net] >>>Sent: January 30, 2003 5:39 PM >>>To: Sage >>>Subject: [SAGE] remote access >>> >>> >>>We are trying to find an isp for dialup access for people who are >>>traveling within the US and overseas. I would like to find out >>>what service providers others have used which will give local >>>numbers within the US and in other companies. Service would need >>>to allow multiple people to access the service at the same time. We >>>would like to have one account for this and not several bills for each >>>person traveling. >>> >>>Thanks in advance, >>>Mike >>>-- >>>Michael Noble >>>mailto: mgnoble@cox.net >>> >>> >> > -- Robert D. Haskins WorldNET Internet Services mailto:rhaskins@wn.net http://www.ziplink.net/~rhaskins From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 31 11:21:55 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h0VJLtD25942 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jan 2003 11:21:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 11:21:52 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Michael Noble cc: Sage Subject: Re: [SAGE] remote access Message-ID: <53940000.1044040912@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <1043977145.16535.6.camel@dragonrider> References: <1043977145.16535.6.camel@dragonrider> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We recently fired GRIC and started using Sprint IP Dial. Much cheaper rates (6 to 1), roughly equivalent or better coverage, better auditing, and improved customer service. GRIC will tell you to look up and then call the "listed" "support" number in the local area, which 9 times out of 10 is either not listed or not answered. You can't appeal to GRIC HQ (even during US business hours), and if someone's access box isn't talking to their RADIUS server halfway around the world, you're screwed. The administrative interface hands you back all the cleartext passwords (!!), and generally didn't meet our needs in other ways. Sprint won our business mostly because we have a lot of occasional users. We're on the $0 plus $0.nn/minute plan, which means we can create a hundred "users" without paying a dime. (Sharing passwords is against our security policy anyway, and Sprint will treat simultaneous use as a fraud flag.) We tell people to use this only when travelling, however, since they can get probably get a flat-fee arrangement with a local ISP where they spend most of their time. We've had to lart a few of the users who evidently nailed it up for a week; YMMV. They may be using iPass overseas, but we haven't had much trouble with it. The biggest problem is that Sprint's own direct support number is US toll-free _only_ (no non-toll-free translation), which is an increasing evil I run into in the telephone system lately. They claim it's reachable from overseas, notwithstanding that the caller will pay for the international hop. But of course it's up to the other country to get their routing tables right for non-geographic US area codes, and most of them don't seem to care much about that. So we end up taking these calls ourselves and escalating to Sprint, which is _not_ what I had in mind. Sprint's phone list is an .exe, but all it does it read some plain text files that ship with it, which I can do on my Mac after installing the thing in VirtualPC. (The .exe refuses to _run_ if it can't find a serial port. *sigh*) Overall, we're reasonably happy with it. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 3 05:57:50 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h13Dvoi17987 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 05:57:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <0D7FC1D8D861D511AEA70002A52CE5E6038A5110@zcard0ke.ca.nortel.com> From: "Ian Holden" To: "'sage-members@usenix.org'" Subject: [SAGE] Sniffing packets without viewing content Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 08:57:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C2CB8C.3100445A" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CB8C.3100445A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" For obvious reasons, our corporate security team is very concerned about the use of packet sniffing software (i.e.. snoop or glance) which allows someone with root privileges to view the packets going by their network interface. Highest concern is for being able to view the contents of the packet, especially if the packet (or series of packets) comprises a clear text password. One obvious solution is to get rid of clear text passwords and/or the software that uses them and move to an encrypted solution. But, until we can reach this goal, is there an alternative? Is there some packet sniffing software that allows you to note the packets going by but not to view inside the packet? As part of regular system administration activities, I've found it quite useful to see the network packet stream going by a network interface. I haven't often needed to see inside the packet but rather am looking for patterns like a common workstation communicating with the system under review. Is the system under review issuing that request for NIS traffic but not receiving a reply? Who is accessing the NFS filesystems on this system? >From these activities I don't care to look into the packets and thus a tool that would allow me to see the network stream but keep the packet contents secure might be an acceptable workaround to my corporate security team until we can resolve clear text passwords. The software solution I seek must ensure the packets are not viewable. I cannot simply offer a solution where we use the software without specifying certain options. Thanks in advance for any assistance. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Ian Holden DI Systems Engineering Computer Thaumaturgist Nortel Networks 3500 Carling Ave. Nepean, ON CANADA K2H 8E9 Email: holdeni@nortelnetworks.com ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CB8C.3100445A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sniffing packets without viewing content

For obvious reasons, our corporate security team is = very concerned about
the use of packet sniffing software (i.e.. snoop or = glance) which allows
someone with root privileges to view the packets = going by their network
interface. Highest concern is for being able to view = the contents of the
packet, especially if the packet (or series of = packets) comprises a
clear text password. One obvious solution is to get = rid of clear text
passwords and/or the software that uses them and = move to an encrypted
solution. But, until we can reach this goal, is = there an alternative?
Is there some packet sniffing software that allows = you to note the packets
going by but not to view inside the packet?

As part of regular system administration activities, = I've found it quite
useful to see the network packet stream going by a = network interface. I
haven't often needed to see inside the packet but = rather am looking for
patterns like a common workstation communicating = with the system under
review. Is the system under review issuing that = request for NIS traffic but
not receiving a reply? Who is accessing the NFS = filesystems on this system?
From these activities I don't care to look into the = packets and thus a tool
that would allow me to see the network stream but = keep the packet contents
secure might be an acceptable workaround to my = corporate security team
until we can resolve clear text passwords.

The software solution I seek must ensure the packets = are not viewable.
I cannot simply offer a solution where we use the = software without
specifying certain options.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

---------------------------------------------------------------= -----

      Ian = Holden      DI Systems Engineering
          &nb= sp;           = Computer Thaumaturgist

     Nortel Networks
     3500 Carling = Ave.           &n= bsp;           &n= bsp;    
     Nepean, ON  = CANADA  K2H = 8E9           Email: = holdeni@nortelnetworks.com

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CB8C.3100445A-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 3 06:09:18 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h13E9I618254 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 06:09:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:09:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sniffing packets without viewing content Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: "'sage-members@usenix.org'" To: "Ian Holden" From: "Mark R. Lindsey" In-Reply-To: <0D7FC1D8D861D511AEA70002A52CE5E6038A5110@zcard0ke.ca.nortel.com> Message-Id: <11AED4EA-3781-11D7-94C8-0003931CFFFE@acm.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id h13E9Hf18251 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In shared-medium networks like ethernet, a station *must* be able to read the full contents of any packets that fly by, because any such packet may be destined for this station. But you can minimize the number of packets which fly by a station that are not intended for this station by using smaller shared-medium domains; i.e., smaller collision domains. Inexpensive non-configurable ethernet switches can do this for you: they keep track of the stations which are connected to each port, so that each port only gets traffic which is either (a) intended for a station connected on that port, or (b) sent to an unknown destination, or (c) is broacasted (e.g., ARPs and DHCP requests). The switches also re-learn station locations as they move around. Mark R. Lindsey UNC-CH Computer Science On Monday, Feb 3, 2003, at 08:57 US/Eastern, Ian Holden wrote: > For obvious reasons, our corporate security team is very concerned > about > the use of packet sniffing software (i.e.. snoop or glance) which > allows > someone with root privileges to view the packets going by their network > interface. Highest concern is for being able to view the contents of > the > packet, especially if the packet (or series of packets) comprises a > clear text password. One obvious solution is to get rid of clear text > passwords and/or the software that uses them and move to an encrypted > solution. But, until we can reach this goal, is there an alternative? > Is there some packet sniffing software that allows you to note the > packets > going by but not to view inside the packet? > > As part of regular system administration activities, I've found it > quite > useful to see the network packet stream going by a network interface. I > haven't often needed to see inside the packet but rather am looking for > patterns like a common workstation communicating with the system under > review. Is the system under review issuing that request for NIS > traffic but > not receiving a reply? Who is accessing the NFS filesystems on this > system? > From these activities I don't care to look into the packets and thus a > tool > that would allow me to see the network stream but keep the packet > contents > secure might be an acceptable workaround to my corporate security team > until we can resolve clear text passwords. > > The software solution I seek must ensure the packets are not viewable. > I cannot simply offer a solution where we use the software without > specifying certain options. > > Thanks in advance for any assistance. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >       Ian Holden      DI Systems Engineering >                       Computer Thaumaturgist > >      Nortel Networks >      3500 Carling Ave.                             >      Nepean, ON  CANADA  K2H 8E9           Email: > holdeni@nortelnetworks.com > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 3 07:54:38 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h13Fsbu21135 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 07:54:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 07:54:31 -0800 From: Peter Van Epp To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sniffing packets without viewing content Message-ID: <20030203155431.GA28653@sfu.ca> References: <0D7FC1D8D861D511AEA70002A52CE5E6038A5110@zcard0ke.ca.nortel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0D7FC1D8D861D511AEA70002A52CE5E6038A5110@zcard0ke.ca.nortel.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Argus, an open source IP auditing package (http://www.qosient.com/argus) will do what you request. Since by default it only looks at the packet headers the contents will be hidden from you. It will store (in a compact form) all the information that you are seeking allowing you to step back in time as well. Some more interesting things it is useful for are available in http://www.usenix.org/publications/login/2001-11/pdfs/epp.pdf as well. Peter Van Epp / Operations and Technical Support Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C. Canada On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 08:57:30AM -0500, Ian Holden wrote: > For obvious reasons, our corporate security team is very concerned about > the use of packet sniffing software (i.e.. snoop or glance) which allows > someone with root privileges to view the packets going by their network > interface. Highest concern is for being able to view the contents of the > packet, especially if the packet (or series of packets) comprises a > clear text password. One obvious solution is to get rid of clear text > passwords and/or the software that uses them and move to an encrypted > solution. But, until we can reach this goal, is there an alternative? > Is there some packet sniffing software that allows you to note the packets > going by but not to view inside the packet? > > As part of regular system administration activities, I've found it quite > useful to see the network packet stream going by a network interface. I > haven't often needed to see inside the packet but rather am looking for > patterns like a common workstation communicating with the system under > review. Is the system under review issuing that request for NIS traffic but > not receiving a reply? Who is accessing the NFS filesystems on this system? > >From these activities I don't care to look into the packets and thus a tool > that would allow me to see the network stream but keep the packet contents > secure might be an acceptable workaround to my corporate security team > until we can resolve clear text passwords. > > The software solution I seek must ensure the packets are not viewable. > I cannot simply offer a solution where we use the software without > specifying certain options. > > Thanks in advance for any assistance. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ian Holden DI Systems Engineering > Computer Thaumaturgist > > Nortel Networks > 3500 Carling Ave. > Nepean, ON CANADA K2H 8E9 Email: holdeni@nortelnetworks.com > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 3 09:26:49 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h13HQmb22362 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:26:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00cc01c2cba9$6b615e50$6436a8c0@VAIO> From: "Mark D. Nagel" To: References: <11AED4EA-3781-11D7-94C8-0003931CFFFE@acm.org> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sniffing packets without viewing content Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:26:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark R. Lindsey" To: "Ian Holden" Cc: Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 6:09 AM Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sniffing packets without viewing content > Inexpensive non-configurable ethernet switches can do this for you: > they keep track of the stations which are connected to each port, so > that each port only gets traffic which is either (a) intended for a > station connected on that port, or (b) sent to an unknown destination, > or (c) is broacasted (e.g., ARPs and DHCP requests). The switches also > re-learn station locations as they move around. I think this argument should be relegated to myth status by this point. Switches no longer gain you anything regarding security. Only end-to-end encryption will protect your data, assuming it is done correctly. Too many script-kiddie-ready tools (dsniff et. al.) exist by now to think otherwise. More information on dsniff: http://naughty.monkey.org/~dugsong/dsniff/ Mark From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 3 09:51:05 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h13Hp5g22766 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:51:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sniffing packets without viewing content From: Jeremy Frank To: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <0D7FC1D8D861D511AEA70002A52CE5E6038A5110@zcard0ke.ca.nortel.com> References: <0D7FC1D8D861D511AEA70002A52CE5E6038A5110@zcard0ke.ca.nortel.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-+YtECLdbkDmUoZaMyHQc" Organization: Message-Id: <1044294660.1208.91081.camel@optimus.dmotorworks.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.1 Date: 03 Feb 2003 11:51:01 -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --=-+YtECLdbkDmUoZaMyHQc Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - If you have access to the network gear, throw some traffic-logging rules on your firewalls, routers or switches. - The last time I looked at iptraf (http://iptraf.seul.org/), I don't think it had the capability to look at or log packet payload. It may be worth a look. Jeremy Frank System Administrator Digital Motorworks On Mon, 2003-02-03 at 07:57, Ian Holden wrote: > For obvious reasons, our corporate security team is very concerned > about > the use of packet sniffing software (i.e.. snoop or glance) which > allows > someone with root privileges to view the packets going by their > network > interface. Highest concern is for being able to view the contents of > the > packet, especially if the packet (or series of packets) comprises a > clear text password. One obvious solution is to get rid of clear text > passwords and/or the software that uses them and move to an encrypted > solution. But, until we can reach this goal, is there an alternative? > Is there some packet sniffing software that allows you to note the > packets > going by but not to view inside the packet? > > As part of regular system administration activities, I've found it > quite > useful to see the network packet stream going by a network interface. > I > haven't often needed to see inside the packet but rather am looking > for > patterns like a common workstation communicating with the system under > review. Is the system under review issuing that request for NIS > traffic but > not receiving a reply? Who is accessing the NFS filesystems on this > system? > From these activities I don't care to look into the packets and thus a > tool > that would allow me to see the network stream but keep the packet > contents > secure might be an acceptable workaround to my corporate security team > until we can resolve clear text passwords. > > The software solution I seek must ensure the packets are not viewable. > I cannot simply offer a solution where we use the software without > specifying certain options. > > Thanks in advance for any assistance. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ian Holden DI Systems Engineering > Computer Thaumaturgist > > Nortel Networks > 3500 Carling Ave. > Nepean, ON CANADA K2H 8E9 Email: > holdeni@nortelnetworks.com > --=-+YtECLdbkDmUoZaMyHQc Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sniffing packets without viewing content - If you have access to the network gear, throw some traffic-logging rules on your firewalls, routers or switches.

- The last time I looked at iptraf (http://iptraf.seul.org/), I don't think it had the capability to look at or log packet payload.  It may be worth a look.


Jeremy Frank
System Administrator
Digital Motorworks



On Mon, 2003-02-03 at 07:57, Ian Holden wrote:
For obvious reasons, our corporate security team is very concerned about
the use of packet sniffing software (i.e.. snoop or glance) which allows
someone with root privileges to view the packets going by their network
interface. Highest concern is for being able to view the contents of the
packet, especially if the packet (or series of packets) comprises a
clear text password. One obvious solution is to get rid of clear text
passwords and/or the software that uses them and move to an encrypted
solution. But, until we can reach this goal, is there an alternative?
Is there some packet sniffing software that allows you to note the packets
going by but not to view inside the packet?

As part of regular system administration activities, I've found it quite
useful to see the network packet stream going by a network interface. I
haven't often needed to see inside the packet but rather am looking for
patterns like a common workstation communicating with the system under
review. Is the system under review issuing that request for NIS traffic but
not receiving a reply? Who is accessing the NFS filesystems on this system?
From these activities I don't care to look into the packets and thus a tool
that would allow me to see the network stream but keep the packet contents
secure might be an acceptable workaround to my corporate security team
until we can resolve clear text passwords.

The software solution I seek must ensure the packets are not viewable.
I cannot simply offer a solution where we use the software without
specifying certain options.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

      Ian Holden      DI Systems Engineering
                      Computer Thaumaturgist

     Nortel Networks
     3500 Carling Ave.                            
     Nepean, ON  CANADA  K2H 8E9           Email: holdeni@nortelnetworks.com

--=-+YtECLdbkDmUoZaMyHQc-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 3 10:08:13 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h13I8Dj23183 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:08:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:08:11 -0700 (MST) From: Rob Kolstad Message-Id: <200302031808.h13I8B707720@ace.DELOS.COM> To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] CHI Conference X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Executive Summary: CHI 2003 needs 1-2 sysadmins for a workshop The Human Factors in Computing Conference, CHI 2003, will take place in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, April 5-10, 2003. The annual CHI conference is the leading international forum for the exchange of ideas and information about computer-human interaction (CHI), also known as human-computer interaction (HCI). A workshop at CHI on Monday, April 7 is entitled: System Administrators are Users, Too: Designing Workspaces for Managing Internet-Scale Systems" See its details at: http://www.chi2003.org/workshop-details.html#17 Mark Verber has mentioned that it'd be great to have another one or two system administrators ("practitioners") at the workshop to represent the profession. He notes: "Ideally people coming would be able [and] willing to [write a short] position paper and [give] a short informal talk... What we most need is people to participate in the discussions (a la the advanced topics at LISA). We are looking for people who have real world experience, and who are able to step back from that experience an think about what makes things good, bad, etc." If you are planning on attending the CHI conference and might be interested in this workshop, please contact Mark at I regret that SAGE has no funds to offer to assist attending the conference. RK ====================================================================== * /\ Rob Kolstad Executive Director, SAGE * /\ / \ kolstad@sage.org FAX: +1 719-481-6551 /\/ \/ \ +1 719-481-6542 15235 Roller Coaster Road / \ / \ http://www.sage.org Colorado Springs, CO 80921 ====================================================================== From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 3 11:47:14 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h13JlEE24580 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:47:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:47:06 -0500 (EST) From: chris@telerama.com X-X-Sender: ncrawler@zaxxon.telerama.com To: Sage Subject: Re: [SAGE] remote access In-Reply-To: <1043977145.16535.6.camel@dragonrider> Message-ID: <20030203143928.V55251-100000@zaxxon.telerama.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Check out iPass at http://www.ipass.com. They offer a couple of global roaming plans. We used iPass for awhile but we dropped them because of problems with abuse. iPass wanted us to pay for charges that an abuser racked up from Algeria. It was a pretty substantial amount of money... If you do decide to use them, I'd be sure to have some sort of automated usage report or monitoring to check up on potential abuse. - -Chris - -- Chris Tracy Telerama Public Access Internet Senior Network Engineer http://www.telerama.com On 30 Jan 2003, Michael Noble wrote: > We are trying to find an isp for dialup access for people who are > traveling within the US and overseas. I would like to find out > what service providers others have used which will give local > numbers within the US and in other companies. Service would need > to allow multiple people to access the service at the same time. We > would like to have one account for this and not several bills for each > person traveling. > > Thanks in advance, > Mike > -- > Michael Noble > mailto: mgnoble@cox.net > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE+Psc7ODpZMT+19JERAu2kAJ91iY5S3xuIOEkHlI6H6V0nsIN6ogCfZ74H 8y4Bhiy2eK4YLlqVNKohN0U= =ko09 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 3 12:04:45 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h13K4iD25039 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:04:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:04:36 -0500 (EST) From: chris@telerama.com X-X-Sender: ncrawler@zaxxon.telerama.com To: Ian Holden cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sniffing packets without viewing content In-Reply-To: <0D7FC1D8D861D511AEA70002A52CE5E6038A5110@zcard0ke.ca.nortel.com> Message-ID: <20030203144840.O55251-100000@zaxxon.telerama.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Just last week I heard that Vern Paxson (LBNL, author of Bro) is working on some anonymizing software that will strip out passwords and other sensitive information in the packet's payload. There are, of course, issues with using something like this if you're using a protocol that the anonymizer doesn't know how to strip. I believe that one of the major motivations for writing the anonymizer because there is so little 'real' data out there that developers can test their new security-related tools on. This software could be useful for a lot of other things though... I'm not of the name or where the anonymizer can be found, or if it has even been released yet. I'd start with http://ee.lbl.gov or ftp://ee.lbl.gov though. - -Chris - -- Chris Tracy Telerama Public Access Internet Senior Network Engineer http://www.telerama.com On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Ian Holden wrote: > For obvious reasons, our corporate security team is very concerned about > the use of packet sniffing software (i.e.. snoop or glance) which allows > someone with root privileges to view the packets going by their network > interface. Highest concern is for being able to view the contents of the > packet, especially if the packet (or series of packets) comprises a > clear text password. One obvious solution is to get rid of clear text > passwords and/or the software that uses them and move to an encrypted > solution. But, until we can reach this goal, is there an alternative? > Is there some packet sniffing software that allows you to note the packets > going by but not to view inside the packet? > > As part of regular system administration activities, I've found it quite > useful to see the network packet stream going by a network interface. I > haven't often needed to see inside the packet but rather am looking for > patterns like a common workstation communicating with the system under > review. Is the system under review issuing that request for NIS traffic but > not receiving a reply? Who is accessing the NFS filesystems on this system? > >From these activities I don't care to look into the packets and thus a tool > that would allow me to see the network stream but keep the packet contents > secure might be an acceptable workaround to my corporate security team > until we can resolve clear text passwords. > > The software solution I seek must ensure the packets are not viewable. > I cannot simply offer a solution where we use the software without > specifying certain options. > > Thanks in advance for any assistance. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ian Holden DI Systems Engineering > Computer Thaumaturgist > > Nortel Networks > 3500 Carling Ave. > Nepean, ON CANADA K2H 8E9 Email: holdeni@nortelnetworks.com > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE+PstWODpZMT+19JERAtXhAJ4+VZa/evJUd6ziR6THfxPFkg3jqgCfV242 0+PF0Aat6mM1QawjvdoPj+8= =9d+Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 3 12:07:18 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h13K7H125314 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:07:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:07:14 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: "'sage-members@usenix.org'" Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sniffing packets without viewing content Message-ID: <20030203200714.GA7021@snew.com> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , "'sage-members@usenix.org'" References: <0D7FC1D8D861D511AEA70002A52CE5E6038A5110@zcard0ke.ca.nortel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0D7FC1D8D861D511AEA70002A52CE5E6038A5110@zcard0ke.ca.nortel.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Anyone with "root" (or most non-unix operating systems) can see the packets go by. Switches change that, but switched can be overwhelmed and become hubs (reference to the dug sung tools). If your system admins are not trusted with the traffic, then the traffic should be altered to not be clearly visible. If you have NFS (no file security), then someone can pretty much see most of the files on that exported partition, with a little skill. Plenty of network tools can be configured to not show the whole packets, most do by default. You *could* just pass out blindfolds to your security folk, it would be as effective. See no, hear no, speak no... Quoting Ian Holden (holdeni@nortelnetworks.com): > For obvious reasons, our corporate security team is very concerned about > the use of packet sniffing software (i.e.. snoop or glance) which allows > someone with root privileges to view the packets going by their network > interface. Highest concern is for being able to view the contents of the > packet, especially if the packet (or series of packets) comprises a > clear text password. One obvious solution is to get rid of clear text > passwords and/or the software that uses them and move to an encrypted > solution. But, until we can reach this goal, is there an alternative? > Is there some packet sniffing software that allows you to note the packets > going by but not to view inside the packet? > > As part of regular system administration activities, I've found it quite > useful to see the network packet stream going by a network interface. I > haven't often needed to see inside the packet but rather am looking for > patterns like a common workstation communicating with the system under > review. Is the system under review issuing that request for NIS traffic but > not receiving a reply? Who is accessing the NFS filesystems on this system? > From these activities I don't care to look into the packets and thus a tool > that would allow me to see the network stream but keep the packet contents > secure might be an acceptable workaround to my corporate security team > until we can resolve clear text passwords. > > The software solution I seek must ensure the packets are not viewable. > I cannot simply offer a solution where we use the software without > specifying certain options. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 3 14:46:19 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h13MkId27066 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:46:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:46:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200302032246.h13MkAb86279@gc0.generalconcepts.com> From: John Sellens To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] SAGE Executive Committee February Meeting X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The SAGE Executive Committee met in Chicago over this past weekend. New officers for this term were selected as follows: President: Geoff Halprin Vice President: Trey Harris Secretary: John Sellens Treasurer: Bryan Andregg Members at large: Gabe Krabbe David Parter Peg Schafer Departing members Tim Gassaway and Josh Simon were thanked for their service and contributions. I am working with the Executive Committee and staff to compose a memo to members; please expect it later this month. Please send any questions and suggestions to myself or the board (sage-exec@sage.com). Cheers! John Sellens SAGE Secretary jsellens@sage.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 3 17:35:28 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h141ZSt29356 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:35:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:35:21 -0500 From: Joseph S D Yao To: John LLOYD Cc: Michael Noble , Sage Subject: Re: [SAGE] remote access Message-ID: <20030203203521.D18173@gwyn.tux.org> Mail-Followup-To: John LLOYD , Michael Noble , Sage References: <367C011C07C1EE4B90C684299E10901F0FF49B@exchange.mda.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <367C011C07C1EE4B90C684299E10901F0FF49B@exchange.mda.ca>; from jal@mda.ca on Thu, Jan 30, 2003 at 06:11:32PM -0800 X-Accepted-File-Formats: ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jan 30, 2003 at 06:11:32PM -0800, John LLOYD wrote: > Compuserve. Phone numbers every where, including very small towns in the > Netherlands. You can get a corporate admin account from which you can > create/enable/destroy accounts per person, and get a corporate billing. Owned by and integrated into the aforementioned WorldCom. -- /*********************************************************************\ ** ** Joe Yao jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao ** \*********************************************************************/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 3 19:04:45 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1434iA00102 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 19:04:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:53:12 -0800 To: Chuck Yerkes Cc: "'sage-members@usenix.org'" Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sniffing packets without viewing content Message-ID: <20030204025312.GD834@mars.starshine.org> References: <0D7FC1D8D861D511AEA70002A52CE5E6038A5110@zcard0ke.ca.nortel.com> <20030203200714.GA7021@snew.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030203200714.GA7021@snew.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 03:07:14PM -0500, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > Anyone with "root" (or most non-unix operating systems) can see > the packets go by. Switches change that, but switched can > be overwhelmed and become hubs (reference to the dug sung tools). > If your system admins are not trusted with the traffic, > then the traffic should be altered to not be clearly visible. > If you have NFS (no file security), then someone can pretty much > see most of the files on that exported partition, with a little > skill. > Plenty of network tools can be configured to not show the > whole packets, most do by default. > You *could* just pass out blindfolds to your security folk, it > would be as effective. See no, hear no, speak no... Chuck, I think you are being very tactful. My initial, knee jerk response to Ian's management is: What idiots! This is like management asking everyone in the building not to have scissors cause they store HR records in cardboard boxes "secured" with string! It makes no sense to ask your trustworthy admins to tie their hands behind their backs (use crippled tools) when any attacker can fetch and run tcpdump, ethereal, whatever on their PocketPC. tcpdump, by default, just displays headers. You're on your honor not to go poking in to the payloads and decoding them from hex into plain ASCII (just as you'd be on your honor not to install other more capable tools). Read my lips: THE ONLY RATIONAL WAY TO SECURE ETHERNET IS VIA UBIQUITOUS STRONG ENCRYPTION! Accept no snake oil! Don't bow down to the lies! I'm sick of hearing people try to squirm out of this conclusion! telnet is deprecated. rsh/rlogin is deprecated. non-anonymous FTP is deprecated. NFS should be replaced (or forced to run over IPSec). I think we do a disservice to our clients, customers, users, employers and each other by paying lip service to "security by obscurity" polices that are foist upon us. (Yes, I know one could theoretically "secure" ethernet through purely physical means, locking all ethernet cables inside hard, pressurized conduits, and welding those into the backs of machines --- let's not consider such absurdity). Speaking of NFS, has anyone seen a version of AFS that actually doesn't encryption as well as Kereberos authentication? Has anyone on this list played with NFS over IPSec (esp. FreeS/WAN)? (How did you configure the routing/filters to enforce the "only over IPSec" policy?) Has anyone used the new SFS (secure filesystem) from (http://www.securefs.org/ )? [Sorry to vent like this but ... ARRGH!] > Quoting Ian Holden (holdeni@nortelnetworks.com): >> For obvious reasons, our corporate security team is very concerned about >> the use of packet sniffing software (i.e.. snoop or glance) which allows >> someone with root privileges to view the packets going by their network >> interface. Highest concern is for being able to view the contents of the >> packet, especially if the packet (or series of packets) comprises a >> clear text password. One obvious solution is to get rid of clear text >> passwords and/or the software that uses them and move to an encrypted >> solution. But, until we can reach this goal, is there an alternative? >> Is there some packet sniffing software that allows you to note the packets >> going by but not to view inside the packet? >> As part of regular system administration activities, I've found it quite >> useful to see the network packet stream going by a network interface. I >> haven't often needed to see inside the packet but rather am looking for >> patterns like a common workstation communicating with the system under >> review. Is the system under review issuing that request for NIS traffic but >> not receiving a reply? Who is accessing the NFS filesystems on this system? >> From these activities I don't care to look into the packets and thus a tool >> that would allow me to see the network stream but keep the packet contents >> secure might be an acceptable workaround to my corporate security team >> until we can resolve clear text passwords. >> The software solution I seek must ensure the packets are not viewable. >> I cannot simply offer a solution where we use the software without >> specifying certain options. -- Jim Dennis From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 3 19:32:31 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h143WUm00519 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 19:32:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: goodall.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:31:56 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: jimd@mars.starshine.org cc: Chuck Yerkes , "'sage-members@usenix.org'" Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sniffing packets without viewing content In-Reply-To: <20030204025312.GD834@mars.starshine.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Feb 2003 jimd@mars.starshine.org wrote: > > Speaking of NFS, has anyone seen a version of AFS that actually > doesn't encryption as well as Kereberos authentication? Has anyone > on this list played with NFS over IPSec (esp. FreeS/WAN)? (How did > you configure the routing/filters to enforce the "only over IPSec" > policy?) Has anyone used the new SFS (secure filesystem) from > (http://www.securefs.org/ )? > I'm using SFS. I like it because I can convert existing filesystems (UFS, VxFS, etc) to use it without converting to any other format. It gives a nice global filesystem space. I have not stress tested it for performance, but in the last 6 months we haven't had even a hint of a problem. I recommend! Doug From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 4 06:12:15 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h14ECEQ24415 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 06:12:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:11:03 -0700 (MST) From: Yves Dorfsman To: John Arrasjid Cc: "'Michael Noble'" , "'Sage'" Subject: RE: [SAGE] remote access In-Reply-To: <001401c2c8d1$230a68c0$500311ac@arrasjid.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, John Arrasjid wrote: > iPass is very good. I've used them at a number of companies and they have > access numbers in pretty much every country on the planet. Cost is variable > based on the number of users you sign up and total monthly usage. It is all > tied into a radius server at your company that can be tied to Active > Directory, LDAP or NIS I believe. Sorry to be late on this thread.... I have used an iPass member called i2roam, which you pay 100$ initial fee, then only pay when you use it. REally liked there service, and tech support through email was great, even though I was using Debian linux !!! http://www.i2roam.com Yves. ---- Yves Dorfsman yves@zioup.com http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~dorfsmay http://www.SollerS.ca From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 4 08:59:16 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h14GxG826278 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:59:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [SAGE] cfengine portability From: Mark McCullough To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-QxIc2tLVTszBNlwhK/av" X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 (1.0.8-10) Date: 04 Feb 2003 11:01:00 -0600 Message-Id: <1044378061.27410.47.camel@starfury> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --=-QxIc2tLVTszBNlwhK/av Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone else had much experience in using cfengine with multiple OS's including things like HP-UX, NT/2K, Sun, etc? We are considering implementing it for our environment, but good NT/2K support is one question I am being asked about. The other question is if anyone knows a commercial company from which cfengine support can be purchased? (US based preferred.) --=20 mmccul@earthlink.net Mark McCullough "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that=20 we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only=20 unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American=20 public." (Theodore Roosevelt, 1918) --=-QxIc2tLVTszBNlwhK/av Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQA+P/HMLt0nxEAuAy8RAhClAJ42UXayMO9FvMT4hMob8rn3gGCJaACeJaOY QIgZVF+sMC3k2rF6C84azjc= =lDOr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-QxIc2tLVTszBNlwhK/av-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 4 09:41:59 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h14HfxJ26918 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:41:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:41:49 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] cfengine portability Message-ID: <20030204174149.GA16884@snew.com> Reply-To: sage-members@usenix.org Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <1044378061.27410.47.camel@starfury> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1044378061.27410.47.camel@starfury> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Mark McCullough (mmccul@earthlink.net): > Has anyone else had much experience in using cfengine with multiple OS's > including things like HP-UX, NT/2K, Sun, etc? We are considering > implementing it for our environment, but good NT/2K support is one > question I am being asked about. The other question is if anyone knows > a commercial company from which cfengine support can be purchased? (US > based preferred.) I know its great for multiple Unixes and should work find with PC operating systems like Mac OS X. Win 2k I'm not sure I'd count on. Deeply proprietary and so resistant to working with industry standard tools that they had to invent their own industry for it. Commercial support ... Depending on your needs for "support", which could range from someone to developer scripts and help debug to giving Mark cash every once in a while to answer questions quickly. I look at the tool like make(1) - you can hire folks to help you get various scripts working, but there's not a lot to support. If you call Sun with questions about make, you'll have a tough time getting answers. Hell, I've dealt with bugs in HP's shutdown script order for years under high support levels and little response (don't shut off and remove all routing before you unmount NFS partitions). A cf-engine run on install (and periodically to "watch for changes") can ensure that the routing shutdown script is moved to after NFS unmounts for me. It's a broad and flexible tool, so "support" is a broad and flexible proposition. When using cf-engine, I've found it key is to develop some base scripts that enforce your policies things you need that cover the OS. With most Unixes, I've found that reducing these deviances in the first place is helpful. My habit has always been to install Open Source versions of sendmail, perhaps printing tools (lprng or, these days perhaps CUPS), gmake (using the same Makefiles on every platform) and so forth. Net-snmp is a great tool to have on many many machines and, through extension by well written scripts, can act as an (authenticated, perhaps encrypted) way to watch many many things like disk size, load, processes, etc. In days of yore, I used to put GNU's df, du and other utils on because frankly, I didn't CARE if AIX's df was "better" in some way than HP-UXs, or Suns, or SGIs. I did care a lot that they deviated from each other and were a bitch to use in a script. Once you're setup, it's often ignored. An "OS-check" script can be run every day or week out of cron, your various "per day" scripts can be run every day. Perhaps you have it run "sup" to update it's own scripts every night which might trigger a patch install script that's run exactly once. I started using it when I was building new machines every few weeks and had to just run through my check list of things to do to make the machine ready for whatever role. Jumpstart/ net based installs are great, but shell based post-install scripts usually mean writing more lines to deal with shell than actual work you need done. cf-engine post install (automated or not) was a quick and readable way to get a bunch of tasks done. chuck From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 4 11:32:40 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h14JWdG28262 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:32:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: gwydion.kenthamilton.net: www set sender to KentH@KentHamilton.NET using -f Message-ID: <1044387149.3e40154dca50a@gwydion.kenthamilton.net:443> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:32:29 -0600 From: Kent Hamilton To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Backups MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 4.0-cvs X-Originating-IP: 128.242.141.5 X-Wow: Someone reads these? X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.16 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I have been asked to write up a company policy on record retention, data backups, recovery, etc. Does anyone know of a good "Best Practices" document for backup and recovery. Background: We currently back up around 1.6 TB to two 10 tape DLT changers. This includes software development systems, engineering working drawings, DB servers, MS Exchange servers, etc. We recently asked for $$ to upgrade to a larger changer with SDLT drives. His response was to tell us to cut the amount of data and live with it. We've already pared it back about as far as it will go and he wants us to cut more and cut all our retention periods down to 3 years. I'm looking for documents that will back up my position that we need to keep at least 7 years for patent, copyright, financial, etc., info. We only keep email for 3 months (which is too long for me.) But I'd like to see if I'm right on the retention periods, as well as what we should be backing up. I say that development machines, CAD systems, etc., need to be backed up for at least 3 months retention he says we shouldn't back them up other than weekly and trash 'em. Thanks Kent From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 4 14:46:18 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h14MkIE00736 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 14:46:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <367C011C07C1EE4B90C684299E10901F0FF4FC@exchange.mda.ca> From: John LLOYD To: Kent Hamilton Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] Backups Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 14:45:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi Kent, We use 7 years based on experience with 9-track CCTs (uhhh, that is computer-compatible tapes aka reel-to-real). We had people asking for restores 15 years later. (Don't know how they remembered it was there.) So, we decided to put a time limit on it just to have one. And, accountants have some rule or other about 5 years so we figured it would take them 2 years to wake up after that. DLTs might last 7 years, too. That is for full backups (done once per month), consisting of complete filesystem dumps, of "servers" meaning any box with more disk than the typical PC. PCs get a year of monthly fulls, and 4 weeks of daily incrementals. In our organization email lives on PCs not on servers. Filesystem incrementals are kept for a few weeks. Databases (like Oracle, Ingres, MS Exchange, etc etc) are defined as sets of files managed by special purpose software which includes it's own backup mechanism or requirement. These are dynamic (change daily) and anything older than a week or two is basically out of date, so they don't need much retention at all. Unfortunately they are not a big part of the file store, either. One very important issue: keep some long-interval full backups of databases, in spite of their datedness. We had a case of slow server corruption that went unrecognized for 3 years; a restore of a very old backup was useful even temporarily to fetch some reference info. A year old tape of a database is cheap and easy insurance. Note: operating system configuration has many similarities to a database, except the change rate. Your configuration (2 small robots) does not well match your environment (software development, drawings, email, etc). I would explain your needs (as you have described it) as follows: - software development: very valuable files (costs labor dollars to replace); they change daily; require offsite copies at least weekly - drawings: very valuable files (irreplaceable); they don't change often; you probably have a huge backlist of archival files; relatively few newer files; requires duplicate copies; and offsite copies at least weekly - email: probably contains some archival material in spite of efforts to avoid, therefore a very small percentage is very valuable - operating systems: expensive to reproduce (unrecorded configuration changes? Hope not!) Concentrate on the valuable stuff in priority order (obviously my list is wrong since I don't really understand your environment very well, but you get the idea) and do whatever your robots have capacity for. Make sure your management makes you do this (make it their decision). Reduce the workload, for example by getting "archival" data out of the email system (by this I mean the high-value spreadsheets emailed by accounting, policies not available elsewhere, and so forth). This is probably hard. This might allow you to avoid long-term email backups. Consider centralizing "valuable" documents in some sort of document-management system; probably some PHP-based thing is available. Back this up carefully and announce that this is the only place that finished documents will be reliably stored. Get an offsite policy and service into place (move backup tapes, or copies of them offsite on a regular schedule and ensure that management understands that some restores might have to await retrieval). Remember disk is cheaper than tape---the first volume, anyway. Use disk for database backups. A $300 IDE disk is cheaper and faster and almost bigger than a $5000 LTO tape drive. Also, disk backups may be copied to tape when convenient, not just when your backup window is open. Based on the above, the forced prioritization might bring out the need to expand the backup capacity. Then await the disaster to strike---it will hit, of course, whatever files are not a priority. Then you will get a new set of robotics. --John > -----Original Message----- > From: Kent Hamilton [mailto:KentH@kenthamilton.net] > Sent: February 4, 2003 11:32 AM > To: sage-members@usenix.org > Subject: [SAGE] Backups > > > I have been asked to write up a company policy on record > retention, data > backups, recovery, etc. > > Does anyone know of a good "Best Practices" document for backup and > recovery. > > Background: We currently back up around 1.6 TB to two 10 tape DLT > changers. This includes software development systems, engineering > working drawings, DB servers, MS Exchange servers, etc. We recently > asked for $$ to upgrade to a larger changer with SDLT drives. His > response was to tell us to cut the amount of data and live with it. > We've already pared it back about as far as it will go and he > wants us > to cut more and cut all our retention periods down to 3 years. I'm > looking for documents that will back up my position that we > need to keep > at least 7 years for patent, copyright, financial, etc., > info. We only > keep email for 3 months (which is too long for me.) But I'd > like to see > if I'm right on the retention periods, as well as what we should be > backing up. I say that development machines, CAD systems, > etc., need to > be backed up for at least 3 months retention he says we > shouldn't back > them up other than weekly and trash 'em. > > Thanks > > Kent > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 4 15:38:02 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h14Nc2o01609 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:38:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 16:43:35 -0700 From: Kirk Rafferty To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Backups Message-ID: <20030204234335.GC5958@fpcc.net> References: <367C011C07C1EE4B90C684299E10901F0FF4FC@exchange.mda.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <367C011C07C1EE4B90C684299E10901F0FF4FC@exchange.mda.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On February 4, 2003 11:32 AM Kent Hamilton wrote: > > Does anyone know of a good "Best Practices" document for backup and > > recovery. Hi Kent, Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but SAGE has a whole series of backup publications at http://sageweb.sage.org/resources/publications/9_backups/ . Regards, Kirk From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 4 15:41:52 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h14Nfq201864 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:41:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:41:48 -0800 From: Benjamin Feen To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Backups Message-ID: <20030204234148.GC1129@pianosa.catch22.org> Reply-To: Benjy Feen Mail-Followup-To: Benjamin Feen , sage-members@usenix.org References: <1044387149.3e40154dca50a@gwydion.kenthamilton.net:443> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1044387149.3e40154dca50a@gwydion.kenthamilton.net:443> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 01:32:29PM -0600, Kent Hamilton wrote: > Background: We currently back up around 1.6 TB to two 10 tape DLT > changers. Yuck. My heart goes out to you. > We recently > asked for $$ to upgrade to a larger changer with SDLT drives. His > response was to tell us to cut the amount of data and live with it. You don't mention whose response "his response" is; is it your boss? A finance guy? CEO? All three? > I'm > looking for documents that will back up my position that we need to keep > at least 7 years for patent, copyright, financial, etc., info. If it won't embarrass or anger whoever 'he' is, you might be able to punt to your legal dept or corporate attorney for information about what you *must* do. A side note: beware of regulations that stipulate *maximum* retention times for data. I recall something about HR documentation having to be destroyed after 2 years. -- Benjamin Feen benjamin(AT)feen.com http://www.monkeybagel.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 4 17:46:12 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h151kBx03337 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:46:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:46:05 -0800 From: Kourosh Ghassemieh To: Kent Hamilton Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Backups Message-ID: <20030205014605.GA27781@mindwaresystems.com> References: <1044387149.3e40154dca50a@gwydion.kenthamilton.net:443> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1044387149.3e40154dca50a@gwydion.kenthamilton.net:443> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 01:32:29PM -0600, Kent Hamilton wrote: > I have been asked to write up a company policy on record retention, data > backups, recovery, etc. For record retentionm you should consult with your internal legal department or an outside legal counsel as certain types of dcocuments and records have particular retention requirements. I work at a bank and I know that we have retention requirements for almost all of our documents, and they vary by document type. Alos, make sure you get everything in writing so you can have it for future reference. > Does anyone know of a good "Best Practices" document for backup and > recovery. Sage has a Short Topics book on the subject and O'Reilly publishes a Unix Backup & Recovery book that is quite good. > Background: We currently back up around 1.6 TB to two 10 tape DLT > changers. This includes software development systems, engineering > working drawings, DB servers, MS Exchange servers, etc. We recently > asked for $$ to upgrade to a larger changer with SDLT drives. His > response was to tell us to cut the amount of data and live with it. > We've already pared it back about as far as it will go and he wants us > to cut more and cut all our retention periods down to 3 years. I'm > looking for documents that will back up my position that we need to keep > at least 7 years for patent, copyright, financial, etc., info. We only > keep email for 3 months (which is too long for me.) But I'd like to see > if I'm right on the retention periods, as well as what we should be > backing up. I say that development machines, CAD systems, etc., need to > be backed up for at least 3 months retention he says we shouldn't back > them up other than weekly and trash 'em. > > Thanks > > Kent > A good idea is to consult with your different departments, as well as you superiors about prioritizing the data and setting value for it, and make sure you get something in writing to that affect. After they have prioritized the data you can set up a backup scheme that takes that into account. Let your supervisors know how long the data will be kept, and have them sign off on it so that they are aware. Once they are aware of the risks and have signed off on it they may decide that the data is worth better backups. If not, at least you can show them they approved it if disaster strikes. Hope this helps, Kourosh From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 5 07:13:35 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h15FDZE28090 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:13:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: gwydion.kenthamilton.net: www set sender to KentH@KentHamilton.NET using -f Message-ID: <1044458007.3e412a17134d3@gwydion.kenthamilton.net:443> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:13:27 -0600 From: Kent Hamilton To: Benjy Feen Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Backups References: <1044387149.3e40154dca50a@gwydion.kenthamilton.net:443> <20030204234148.GC1129@pianosa.catch22.org> In-Reply-To: <20030204234148.GC1129@pianosa.catch22.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 4.0-cvs X-Originating-IP: 128.242.141.5 X-Wow: Someone reads these? X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.16 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Benjamin Feen : > On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 01:32:29 > > > We recently > > asked for $$ to upgrade to a larger changer with SDLT drives. His > > response was to tell us to cut the amount of data and live with it. > > You don't mention whose response "his response" is; is it your boss? > A finance guy? CEO? All three? I'm the manager of the "IT Infrastructure" group but I work directly for the Executive VP (don't ask, you don't want to know about our lack of normal IT structure) of a mid-sized privately held company. So in this case "he" is the #2 person in the company (Owner/President, Exec VP, me). > > > I'm > > looking for documents that will back up my position that we need to > keep > > at least 7 years for patent, copyright, financial, etc., info. > > If it won't embarrass or anger whoever 'he' is, you might be able > to punt to your legal dept or corporate attorney for information > about what you *must* do. I've already talked with our legal department and in this case they mostly agree with me, they are still arguing over what rules our EU (Germany) subsidiary has to follow, and can't agree on a number for patent/copyright related documents (20 years, forever, 10 years and 7 years have come out of their mouths at different times) I'm going to settle on 7 unless they can show me a reason not to. > A side note: beware of regulations that stipulate *maximum* retention > times for data. I recall something about HR documentation having > to be destroyed after 2 years. I'm still looking into the HR thing because they said "2 years after the employee leaves" which leaves me with no help what-so-ever in building record retention policies. Life was SOOOOO much simplier before I became a manager. -- Kent Hamilton Home: KentH(at)KentHamilton.NET Work: KHamilton(at)Hunter.COM From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 5 07:24:12 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h15FOCY28357 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:24:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E412C8B.5000405@Genome.WI.MIT.EDU> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 10:23:55 -0500 From: "K. M. Peterson" Organization: Whitehead Institute/MIT Center for Genome Research User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030122 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kent Hamilton CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Backups References: <1044387149.3e40154dca50a@gwydion.kenthamilton.net:443> In-Reply-To: <1044387149.3e40154dca50a@gwydion.kenthamilton.net:443> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk One thing that I would point out - amplify something that was already written here - is that a policy should very clearly state the differences in backups between "recovering from system errors, inadventent deletion, disasters" and "recovering records". In our environment, we had a number of people who would not concern themselves with managing their data. They would delete things when running low on quota or physical space, reasoning that "if I ever need to get this back it's on a backup". We had to clarify to them that backup media are "rotated" - kept for a limited period of time for the purposed of handling the first category. For that second category, a different way of thinking is required. The reason: yes, even before we started rotating media, everything was in there. Somewhere. Think for a moment about finding stuff in a very dynamic environment - where was it in the filesystem (often, who had the file stored, and is that person still around?), and exactly when? You may have it, but you may not be able to find it, practically. It's important to archive, to set up a system that will document the status of selected documents that are assumed to be stored "forever" or another period consistent with applicable regulation. The files stored there should be self-documenting and/or annotated with an eye towards the ability to search for them years later on that annotation. There is software to do this, and it's different from "backups". _KMP Kent Hamilton wrote: >I have been asked to write up a company policy on record retention, data >backups, recovery, etc. > >Does anyone know of a good "Best Practices" document for backup and >recovery. > >Background: We currently back up around 1.6 TB to two 10 tape DLT >changers. This includes software development systems, engineering >working drawings, DB servers, MS Exchange servers, etc. We recently >asked for $$ to upgrade to a larger changer with SDLT drives. His >response was to tell us to cut the amount of data and live with it. >We've already pared it back about as far as it will go and he wants us >to cut more and cut all our retention periods down to 3 years. I'm >looking for documents that will back up my position that we need to keep >at least 7 years for patent, copyright, financial, etc., info. We only >keep email for 3 months (which is too long for me.) But I'd like to see >if I'm right on the retention periods, as well as what we should be >backing up. I say that development machines, CAD systems, etc., need to >be backed up for at least 3 months retention he says we shouldn't back >them up other than weekly and trash 'em. > >Thanks > >Kent > > > -- K. M. Peterson voice: +1 617 258 0927 Whitehead Institute/MIT Center for Genome Research 320 Charles Street - Cambridge, MA 02141-2023 fax: +1 617 258 0903 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 5 09:02:38 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h15H2ca29441 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:02:38 -0800 (PST) From: "W. Curtis Preston" To: "'Kent Hamilton'" , Subject: RE: [SAGE] Backups Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:02:08 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c2cd40$b3a85630$7a01800a@VAIO> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1044387149.3e40154dca50a@gwydion.kenthamilton.net:443> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Background: We currently back up around 1.6 TB to two 10 tape DLT > changers. That's barely enough to hold one full backup, let alone any incremental backups. (20 tapes * 80 GB = 1.6 TB) This means that you're swapping tapes on a very regular basis just to get backups done. If you spread your full backups out enough, you could get the backups DONE, but you're swapping tapes like crazy. > This includes software development systems, engineering > working drawings, DB servers, MS Exchange servers, etc. We recently > asked for $$ to upgrade to a larger changer with SDLT drives. I would have chosen LTO, but that's not your problem. There is still plenty of evidence from VERY good sources that SDLTs are actually more unreliable than old DLTs. > His > response was to tell us to cut the amount of data and live with it. Your argument should not be one of retention. Your argument should be one of getting backups and restores done without any human intervention. That would require an upgrade regardless of your retention periods. Argue for the value of unattended restores -- restores that work when you're sick or on vacation. > We've already pared it back about as far as it will go and he > wants us > to cut more and cut all our retention periods down to 3 years. Again, this only affects the number of tapes you buy, not necessarily the size of your library. Most people do not leave long term archives in their library. They're not save there. I get this argument all the time, and I can tell you that arguing with a person that's dead set on reducing tape costs is very hard. If you've got CAD drawings, you make things. People that make things get sued. Lawsuits can go back many, many years and require drawings that are only available on archives. If you don't have the proof, you lose the suit automatically. If your boss does not see that, or does not care, there's not much you can do. > I'm > looking for documents that will back up my position that we > need to keep > at least 7 years for patent, copyright, financial, etc., > info. It depends on statutes of limitations on what you can be sued for, or you can sue for. 7 years is good for financial stuff, but probably not long enough for patent stuff. You might be called upon to prove that you were working on product XYZ ten years ago. I agree with someone else's assertion that you should look at long term archiving systems that are much cheaper than backups. But it sounds like your guy doesn't want reasonable. I've never been able to deal with that. As a consultant, I simply write my recommendation stating that I believe that their retention periods are unsafe, and move on. Unfortunately, you don't have that choice. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 6 13:14:12 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h16LEB623225 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 13:14:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 13:13:58 -0800 From: Ken Herron To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Sun ONE Directory/Identity/Certificate/Meta servers? Message-ID: <0.1044566038@piggies> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.0 (SunOS/SPARC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hello all, We maintain a dial access pool for some products we operate. The dialup clients using this pool are mostly point-of-sale devices. Currently the system supports around 4,000 clients, but this is expected to triple over the next year or so. The central authentication system was developed in 2000. Auth information is stored in an openLDAP server; individual projects get their own ldap namespace and object types which map to specific types of clients. The old Livingston RADIUS server is used for auth and accounting. The setup is replicated on two hosts for redundancy. The system has some first-generation warts but it's extremely reliable and has met all requirements so far. Now the new-product group wants to develop a "security reference architecture" for use moving forward. They're looking at the Sun ONE product for this, specifically directory server, identity server, certificate server, and meta-directory server. The latter two would be new functionality, but the directory and identity server would replace the existing auth system. I'm wondering how much of a luddite I should be here. They're no doubt more polished, and management is generally more comfortable buying commercial solutions vs. maintaining freeware. But the licensing cost of directory server alone is $2.00/entry, or $16,000 just to replicate the existing setup. I have a hard time seeing a benefit here. Does anyone have any experience with these products that they can share? I'd be particularly interested in server sizing and reliability compared with competing products. -- Kenneth Herron Kherron@newsguy.com 916-366-7338 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 6 13:43:21 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h16LhLu23737 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 13:43:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 13:43:17 -0800 From: "Paul M. Moriarty" To: Ken Herron Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sun ONE Directory/Identity/Certificate/Meta servers? Message-ID: <20030206214317.GA15167@igtc.igtc.com> References: <0.1044566038@piggies> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0.1044566038@piggies> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Ken Herron writes: > Hello all, > [...] > > I'm wondering how much of a luddite I should be here. They're no doubt > more polished, and management is generally more comfortable buying > commercial solutions vs. maintaining freeware. But the licensing cost of > directory server alone is $2.00/entry, or $16,000 just to replicate the > existing setup. I have a hard time seeing a benefit here. > If I'm not mistaken, Directory Server is bundled with Solaris 2.9 and you get something like the first 2 million entries included with the OS. > Does anyone have any experience with these products that they can share? > I'd be particularly interested in server sizing and reliability compared > with competing products. > Speaking as a PHB, we are attracted to ease of use/administration because it means you can run the system with more junior people and commercial training is usually available. - Paul - From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 6 13:58:15 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h16LwE624078 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 13:58:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:58:59 -0600 From: Pete Ehlke To: Ken Herron Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sun ONE Directory/Identity/Certificate/Meta servers? Message-ID: <20030206215859.GA45807@rfc822.net> References: <0.1044566038@piggies> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0.1044566038@piggies> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 01:13:58PM -0800, Ken Herron wrote: > > I'm wondering how much of a luddite I should be here. They're no doubt > more polished, and management is generally more comfortable buying > commercial solutions vs. maintaining freeware. But the licensing cost of Interesting that this should come up. I am, at this very moment, attempting to convince an iPlanet LDAP server to repliacte without having the iPlanet GUI available. Nobody at Sun seems to have *any* idea how to do this without using the GUI. Being one of the two or three largest iPlanet Application Server shops in the world isn't getting me anywhere with them, either. iPlanet apps are, imnsho, by and large much better at handling heavy traffic loads than their open-source analogs, but the fine art of configuration file management has virtually disappeared from Sun/iPlanets' tech support hivemind. > directory server alone is $2.00/entry, or $16,000 just to replicate the > existing setup. I have a hard time seeing a benefit here. > Erm. Directory Server is free with Solaris, for up to (iirc) 500,000 entries. -P. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 6 18:56:38 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h172ubw26752 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:56:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200302070256.UAA32187@yfandes.cs.wisc.edu> To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] SAGE CODE OF ETHICS: Final Draft for Comment Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 20:56:35 -0600 From: David Parter X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On February 1, 2003, the SAGE Executive Committee approved a new draft SAGE Code of Ethics for public comment. The comment period will last until March 5, 2003, at which time the comments will be considered, and a final draft submitted to the SAGE Executive Committee with a recommendation. Please check out the SAGE 2003 Draft Code of Ethics and let us know what you think: http://sageweb.sage.org/about/ethics.html Comments should be posted to the SAGEwire story: http://sagewire.sage.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/07/0227248 thanks, --david David Parter SAGE Executive Committee From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 7 08:52:11 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h17GqBO21234 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 08:52:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200302071652.KAA10974@yfandes.cs.wisc.edu> To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] David Parter: [MAD-SAGE] Thursday, February 13, 2003: Dealing with ``SPAM'' Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 10:52:09 -0600 From: David Parter X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk For those of you in Wisconsin, or know people in Wisconsin (or looking for ideas for *your* local SAGE group: ------- Forwarded Message From: David Parter Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 10:48:39 -0600 To: mad-sage@mad-sage.org Subject: [MAD-SAGE] Thursday, February 13, 2003: Dealing with ``SPAM'' MAD-SAGE invites you to join your peers for "networking" and discussion: Date: Thursday, February 13, 2003 Time: 6:00 PIZZA and "networking" 6:30 Technical Program: Dealing with ``SPAM'' Speakers: Will McDonald, EPIC Systems and William Annis, University of Wisconsin Biomedical Computing Group Will will discuss installing, configuring, and using SpamAssassin to filter spam. This will include a discussion of using it on a per-user-basis, site-wide, and in a Windows environment. In August 2002 Paul Graham speculated about using Beyesian text classification to create spam filters. Within a few months there were dozens of implementations, one of which currently has a spam identification hit-rate of 99.8%. William will skip the most of the statistics, and instead focus the pros and cons of this approach, then talk about his own experience with one particular implementation, CRM114. Location: Epic Systems, 5301 Tokay Blvd For more information on MAD-SAGE, please visit http://www.mad-sage.org _______________________________________________ mad-sage mailing list mad-sage@mad-sage.org http://www.mad-sage.org/mailman/listinfo/mad-sage ------- End of Forwarded Message From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 7 09:31:07 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h17HV7j21908 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:31:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:31:05 -0800 (PST) From: Rob Kolstad Message-Id: <200302071731.h17HV5S21902@usenix.org> To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: [SAGE] SAGE/USENIX Websites unavailable on Sunday Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk All SAGE/USENIX internet services will be unavailable from 8 am to as late as 7 pm PST on Sunday February 9th, 2003 (machine room move). RK ====================================================================== * /\ Rob Kolstad Executive Director, SAGE * /\ / \ kolstad@sage.org FAX: +1 719-481-6551 /\/ \/ \ +1 719-481-6542 15235 Roller Coaster Road / \ / \ http://www.sage.org Colorado Springs, CO 80921 ====================================================================== From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 7 12:04:46 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h17K4kM23635 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 12:04:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 15:04:32 -0500 From: kcounts@usf.edu To: Pete Ehlke Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Sun ONE Directory/Identity/Certificate/Meta servers? Message-ID: <20030207200432.GA6398@mantis.acomp.usf.edu> References: <0.1044566038@piggies> <20030206215859.GA45807@rfc822.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030206215859.GA45807@rfc822.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Sender: kcounts X-Uptime: 2:59pm up 16 day(s), 35 min(s), 7 users, load average: 2.04, 2.06, 2.06 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I've done it with IPDS 5.1 with multi-master replication. Here is my cvs directory - there isn't much documentation but poke around and if you have questions feel free. http://cvs.acomp.usf.edu/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/proj/netid/ Kevin Counts -- .____________________________________. | Kevin Counts kcounts@usf.edu | | 813.974.1466 (w) 727.460.9522 (c) | | http://dao.acomp.usf.edu/~kcounts/ | `------------------------------------' On 03-02-06 15:58, Pete Ehlke wrote: > On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 01:13:58PM -0800, Ken Herron wrote: > > > > I'm wondering how much of a luddite I should be here. They're no doubt > > more polished, and management is generally more comfortable buying > > commercial solutions vs. maintaining freeware. But the licensing cost of > > Interesting that this should come up. I am, at this very moment, > attempting to convince an iPlanet LDAP server to repliacte without > having the iPlanet GUI available. Nobody at Sun seems to have *any* idea > how to do this without using the GUI. Being one of the two or three > largest iPlanet Application Server shops in the world isn't getting me > anywhere with them, either. iPlanet apps are, imnsho, by and large much > better at handling heavy traffic loads than their open-source analogs, > but the fine art of configuration file management has virtually > disappeared from Sun/iPlanets' tech support hivemind. > > > directory server alone is $2.00/entry, or $16,000 just to replicate the > > existing setup. I have a hard time seeing a benefit here. > > > Erm. Directory Server is free with Solaris, for up to (iirc) 500,000 > entries. > > -P. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 7 18:15:19 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h182FJx27377 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 18:15:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E44682B.7070106@research.att.com> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 21:15:07 -0500 From: Andrew Hume User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] PC recommendations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk i have been invited to purchase 'industrial-strength' PCs for my cluster. by this, it is meant reliable mechanical design, well cooled and powered, and so on. one presumes this includes rackmount things from Dell. does anyone have any recommendations for such things? thanks -- Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and SAGE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 7 18:47:40 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h182ldU27757 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 18:47:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 20:47:21 -0600 From: Frank Smith To: Andrew Hume , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] PC recommendations Message-ID: <6800000.1044672441@k6.artair.com> In-Reply-To: <3E44682B.7070106@research.att.com> References: <3E44682B.7070106@research.att.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk QSol http://www.qsol.com RackSaver http://www.racksaver.com Penguin http://www.penguincomputing.com/ Clusters is RackSaver's specialty. All three make good hardware. There certainly are many others. Frank --On Friday, February 07, 2003 21:15:07 -0500 Andrew Hume wrote: > i have been invited to purchase 'industrial-strength' PCs for my cluster. > by this, it is meant reliable mechanical design, well cooled and powered, > and so on. one presumes this includes rackmount things from Dell. > does anyone have any recommendations for such things? > > thanks > > -- > Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 > andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 > AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and SAGE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 7 19:08:44 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1838iG28105 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 19:08:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: bushido.realityfailure.org: jjasen owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 22:14:54 -0500 (EST) From: John Jasen X-X-Sender: jjasen@bushido To: Andrew Hume cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] PC recommendations In-Reply-To: <3E44682B.7070106@research.att.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Andrew Hume wrote: > i have been invited to purchase 'industrial-strength' PCs for my cluster. > by this, it is meant reliable mechanical design, well cooled and powered, > and so on. one presumes this includes rackmount things from Dell. > does anyone have any recommendations for such things? www.aclinux.net We recently got done making a half rack for hopkins, amongst other things. -- -- John E. Jasen (jjasen@realityfailure.org) -- User Error #2361: Please insert coffee and try again. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 7 19:15:43 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h183Fhw28355 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 19:15:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: bushido.realityfailure.org: jjasen owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 22:22:04 -0500 (EST) From: John Jasen X-X-Sender: jjasen@bushido cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] PC recommendations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, John Jasen wrote: > www.aclinux.net > > We recently got done making a half rack for hopkins, amongst other things. ooops ... -- -- John E. Jasen (jjasen@realityfailure.org) -- User Error #2361: Please insert coffee and try again. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 8 14:50:52 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h18Mopx24498 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 14:50:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 17:50:58 -0500 From: Jenn Sturm Subject: Re: [SAGE] PC recommendations In-reply-to: <3E44682B.7070106@research.att.com> To: Andrew Hume Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I built our cluster with machines from Power PC and Cooling and am happy with them, largely because the machines are built to stay cooler than your average machine. http://www.pcpowercooling.com If you have the money the rackmount things from Dell are quite nice, but they tend to be pricier than non-brand name systems. -Jenn Sturm On Friday, February 7, 2003, at 09:15 PM, Andrew Hume wrote: > i have been invited to purchase 'industrial-strength' PCs for my > cluster. > by this, it is meant reliable mechanical design, well cooled and > powered, > and so on. one presumes this includes rackmount things from Dell. > does anyone have any recommendations for such things? > > thanks > > -- > Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 > andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 > AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and SAGE > > ___________ Jennifer Sturm System Administrator and Research Support Specialist Chemistry Department Hamilton College 198 College Hill Road Clinton, NY 13323 tel: 315-859-4745 fax: 315-859-4744 jsturm@hamilton.edu http://www.chem.hamilton.edu/ http://mars.chem.hamilton.edu/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 8 19:34:47 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h193YlU26311 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 19:34:47 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Burch To: Jenn Sturm , Andrew Hume Subject: Re: [SAGE] PC recommendations Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 21:30:55 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200302082130.55041.scott.burch@camberwind.com> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Andrew, I don't know what your budget is or the nature of your project, but I would strongly suggest you look at the Proliant DL or ML servers from HP: http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/servers/platforms/ I worked extensively with many of the Compaq proliant servers prior to them merging with HP, the hardware is designed very well, very good remote management features (Check out the Remote Insight Lights-Out Edition II board). I have also used some of the Dell rackmount hardware, but personally I don't think the Dell hardware is designed as well as the HP hardware. If you have any specific questions about the HP hardware, etc. I can put you in touch with someone who is familiar with implenting their current hardware. We have between 300 and 500 Compaq/HP rackmount servers (W2K infrastructure, etc.). It's been 3 years since I worked directly with the Compaq/HP hardware, but I've seen the servers that exist today, and they have improved them even further. -Scott On Saturday 08 February 2003 04:50 pm, Jenn Sturm wrote: > I built our cluster with machines from Power PC and Cooling and am > happy with them, largely because the machines are built to stay cooler > than your average machine. > > http://www.pcpowercooling.com > > If you have the money the rackmount things from Dell are quite nice, > but they tend to be pricier than non-brand name systems. > > -Jenn Sturm > > On Friday, February 7, 2003, at 09:15 PM, Andrew Hume wrote: > > i have been invited to purchase 'industrial-strength' PCs for my > > cluster. > > by this, it is meant reliable mechanical design, well cooled and > > powered, > > and so on. one presumes this includes rackmount things from Dell. > > does anyone have any recommendations for such things? > > > > thanks > > > > -- > > Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 > > andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 > > AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and SAGE > > ___________ > Jennifer Sturm > System Administrator and Research Support Specialist > Chemistry Department > Hamilton College > 198 College Hill Road > Clinton, NY 13323 > > tel: 315-859-4745 > fax: 315-859-4744 > > jsturm@hamilton.edu > > http://www.chem.hamilton.edu/ > http://mars.chem.hamilton.edu/ -- Scott Burch Systems Administrator Medtronic, Inc. http://www.camberwind.com/ for more contact information From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 8 20:54:38 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h194sca26856 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 20:54:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200302090454.h194sZD28604@newtoy.int.dreams.org> To: Andrew Hume cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] PC recommendations In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Feb 2003 21:15:07 EST." <3E44682B.7070106@research.att.com> Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 20:54:34 -0800 From: Jeff Kellem X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On the sage-members mailing list, Andrew Hume wrote . . . > i have been invited to purchase 'industrial-strength' PCs for my cluster. > by this, it is meant reliable mechanical design, well cooled and powered, > and so on. one presumes this includes rackmount things from Dell. > does anyone have any recommendations for such things? I've been happy with systems from Rackable Systems: http://www.rackable.com/ With the 1U, back to back, models, you can put over 80 systems in a 42U cabinet. Airflow is front to back. When they're installed back to back, in a cabinet, a combination of chimney effect and fans on top of the cabinet let the heat out. Some of the features I like about their chassis include: o LCD display, works as long as system is plugged into power o serial console, RJ-45 (so no DB-9 to RJ45 adapters), providing: - hardware reset, power on/off, LCD display control, temperature, red LED, as long as system is plugged in o power in back (away from other cables) - power cables typically pre-mounted in brackets in the cabinet, so you just slide the system into the rack with guide posts for alignment As long as the system is plugged into power and you're connected to the serial console, you can power it on remotely over that console port. When you have cabinets labeled with rack unit numbers, it's nice to be able to tell remote hands "install the system in Rack 1.03, unit number 23". With the LCD display and red LED (both of which can flash, as I recall), you can then use both the display/LED and the unit number to help ensure the correct gear is repaired. I'd recommend both the 1400 and 1800 chassis. The 1800 is newer, about 1" deeper, but can take a dual Xeon system board and center mount in a 2 post rack or use the normal power mate in a cabinet or 4 post rack. Of course, if you really need more room inside, you could look at the larger chassis. The phrase "industrial strength" and commodity PC often don't go together. ;-) I'm leaving out system board recommendations. That'll depend on what you're trying to accomplish and detailed requirements. Since they're a systems integrator, they'll install whatever hardware (systems board, CPUs, disk, memory, etc) you want. Rackable Systems is good to work with and they'll have recommendations on what has worked for them and their customers. FYI . . . Good luck on your search. -jeff -- Jeff Kellem composer@Beyond.Dreams.ORG From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Feb 9 19:10:40 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1A3Aej02150 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:10:40 -0800 (PST) To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] auto-upgrade Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 22:09:50 -0500 From: Dan Geer Message-Id: <20030210032913.0DC5A17A84@porfidio.atstake.com> X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At the risk of causing a blizzard, what requirements would you (plural) place on any system of auto-upgrade? I ask because I see it coming -- when (not if) software comes to inherit liability in ways much more similar to the rest of the industrial universe, the most obvious answer from a vendor's point of view will be EULAs with mandatory upgrade, anti-retention, and quite likely automatic update. Security patches will drive this. On the other hand, if your line of business is mature, then security is a subset of reliability and no one wants to tweak a running system (as last week's discussion of migration versus upgrade demonstrated). Quoting one of my colleagues, > Now I don't want to get off on a rant here, but applying a patch to > a running production system is anathema to most IT operations > managers. And why shouldn't it be? Reasons I've seen managers > reject opportunities to patch include: > - "It will require downtime" > - "It might break my application" > - "I don't understand what services it might shut off" > - "I don't have the staff or time to apply it consistently on all hosts" > - "I don't know which hosts I need to apply it to" If there were something remotely approaching a SAGE consensus on the tradeoffs between risk of not patching versus risk of patching automatically, or better yet a succinct set of requirements, I'd do my part to insert them into the kinds of conversations and encounters that I have. --dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Feb 9 19:38:15 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1A3cEw02724 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:38:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200302100338.h1A3cCE00551@left.wing.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] auto-upgrade In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 09 Feb 2003 22:09:50 EST." <20030210032913.0DC5A17A84@porfidio.atstake.com> X-Organization: Left Wing Computing X-Face: "LX60V1[A=EN[jjZKY=&,"HB8ahM8?VoL; =Y8oj4%JV\F"4sfgV*; 8GgAk!3]}5OmF$/Njv jvRHqNwtZa7yO^g]9+<)e)'EL0?oPqczWF/"+d:XldxB"aLI.D_\|^e4F X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > At the risk of causing a blizzard, what requirements would > you (plural) place on any system of auto-upgrade? This is a very important topic. I also see auto-upgrade EULAs coming, and they make me very uncomfortable. My discomfort has to do with losing control (or at least whatever semblance of control I still have) of my software environment. Beyond this discomfort, however, I haven't given the subject much thought. But I do have one requirement I would like to see on any such system: separate feature upgrades from mandatory updates. I'm much more willing to accept a mandatory patch that plugs a security hole or that fixes a bug in a feature that I already have, than one that bundles new features or other user-visible changes in the same update. More years ago than I care to count, I managed a university timesharing system. We had to deal with the constant tension between the sophisticated users (mostly students) who wanted the latest, greatest version of everything, and other users who just wanted the software they used to get their job done to work the same way today as it did yesterday. A mandatory upgrade should not inconvenience - or even be noticed by - the production user. --Ed From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Feb 9 20:42:58 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1A4gwR03364 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 20:42:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 23:42:53 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris To: Ed Gould Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] auto-upgrade In-Reply-To: <200302100338.h1A3cCE00551@left.wing.org> Message-ID: References: <200302100338.h1A3cCE00551@left.wing.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Ed Gould writes: > This is a very important topic. I also see auto-upgrade EULAs coming, > and they make me very uncomfortable. My discomfort has to do with > losing control (or at least whatever semblance of control I still have) > of my software environment. Many sites have been moving away from dependencies on proprietary software in the core infrastructure. I think that such onerous EULA terms will only accelerate this process. Trey -- I'm looking for work. If you need a SAGE Level IV with 10 years Perl, tool development, training, and architecture experience, please email me at trey@sage.org. I'm willing to relocate for the right opportunity. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Feb 9 21:18:54 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1A5IsL03924 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 21:18:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200302100447.h1A4lu013445@rooster.cisco.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Ed Gould cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] auto-upgrade In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 09 Feb 2003 19:38:12 PST." <200302100338.h1A3cCE00551@left.wing.org> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 23:47:56 -0500 From: Jim Duncan X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Status: R Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Ed Gould writes: > > At the risk of causing a blizzard, what requirements would > > you (plural) place on any system of auto-upgrade? > > This is a very important topic. I also see auto-upgrade EULAs coming, > and they make me very uncomfortable. My discomfort has to do with > losing control (or at least whatever semblance of control I still have) > of my software environment. I believe that educated customers can make intelligent choices and that choice should not be taken away from them (unless they don't care). When I was a member of Cisco's Product Security Incident Response Team (PSIRT), a common criterion when handling a vulnerability was to never assume that the patch would be applicable to all customers. I recall very few vulnerabilities that we could consider "customer-universal" (to steal a term from anthropology). Many vulnerabilities were simply not an issue for certain customers because they did not run the affected code, or perhaps the vuln was not exploitable because of the way the affected system was deployed within the customer's network. In either case, there was no reason for the customer to upgrade. It brought them zero benefit and may, in fact, incur some liability because the upgrade might introduce an instability. This is also the reason the PSIRT would never describe the criticality of a particular vulnerability; there is no way to know how the vulnerability might be evaluated within a given customer network, so we endeavored to describe the issue as clearly as possible and hope the customer would come to the best conclusion in regard to their own situation. This of course assumes that all customers can make the right decision, and that, unfortunately, is no longer true. This is _not_ intended to cast aspersions on the average customer; the fact is that very many consumers are _not_ infotech professionals and simply are not equipped to ponder such issues. It's not their job. It is not "their area" and they have to rely on other professionals to decide for them. In such a situation, automatic updates might be the better solution. There is clearly a need for both schemes; the challenge will be for them that want it to find a way to procure a vetting mechanism for automatic patching (for the industry at large). I am hopeful that consumers will be able to vote with their wallets, but that's assuming they get the opportunity, i.e., that they are offered the choice. > Beyond this discomfort, however, I haven't given the subject much > thought. But I do have one requirement I would like to see on any such > system: separate feature upgrades from mandatory updates. I'm much > more willing to accept a mandatory patch that plugs a security hole or > that fixes a bug in a feature that I already have, than one that > bundles new features or other user-visible changes in the same update. Okay, Ed, here's another issue to consider, one that I have tripped over many times in the past nearly four years on the PSIRT: What do you do when the only fix for a vulnerability is to add a feature? ;-) That happened more often than I care to remember. I had many an issue where I had to struggle against automatic bureaucracy to get a fix applied. Not people, mind you -- the folks involved almost always agreed immediately that the fix was necessary -- but the system (not just ours) simply doesn't consider adding a feature as critical as repairing deployed software. Sometimes, though, adding a feature might be the only way to resolve a critical vulnerability. Food for thought. > More years ago than I care to count, I managed a university timesharing > system. We had to deal with the constant tension between the > sophisticated users (mostly students) who wanted the latest, greatest > version of everything, and other users who just wanted the software > they used to get their job done to work the same way today as it did > yesterday. A mandatory upgrade should not inconvenience - or even be > noticed by - the production user. Now that _is_ a given customer-universal. Some of the systems I worried about have to conform to tariff rules, SLAs, and other obligations not appreciated by the open-source I-can-fix-it-right-away-on-my-own crowd. Fixes have to be seamless (or at least "with beautiful seams") and only after they have been tested rigorously. This is not an easy problem to solve. We have our work cut out for us. Jim == Jim Duncan, Critical Infrastructure Assurance Group, Cisco Systems, Inc. jnduncan@cisco.com, +1 919 392 6209, http://www.cisco.com/go/ciag/. * * PLEASE NOTE: I am no longer a member of the Cisco Product Security * Incident Response Team. To contact the PSIRT, e-mail "psirt@cisco.com". * From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Feb 9 21:20:05 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1A5K4404101 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 21:20:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] auto-upgrade From: Mark McCullough To: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <200302100338.h1A3cCE00551@left.wing.org> References: <200302100338.h1A3cCE00551@left.wing.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-8huk9MrHljUsYsH24w39" X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 (1.0.8-10) Date: 09 Feb 2003 23:19:58 -0600 Message-Id: <1044854399.1741.11.camel@starfury> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --=-8huk9MrHljUsYsH24w39 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 2003-02-09 at 21:38, Ed Gould wrote: > > At the risk of causing a blizzard, what requirements would > > you (plural) place on any system of auto-upgrade? >=20 > This is a very important topic. I also see auto-upgrade EULAs coming,=20 > and they make me very uncomfortable. My discomfort has to do with=20 > losing control (or at least whatever semblance of control I still have)=20 > of my software environment. Where I work, we are still trying to get away from golden images where we are told what patches we are allowed to apply if we are running application version X.Y. There is no control when using apps from these vendors when it comes to patching and upgrading. Instead of auto-upgrade EULAs, I see these no-upgrade EULAs which block you from installing third party software packages or upgrading/patching other parts of your system as a trend that exists in at least some industries. Oh and, the vendor's support may only last a little past the release of the next version, so they force upgrades not by EULA, but by simply not supporting older versions. I don't think it is necessary to rely on the EULA to get these upgrades. Too many other ways that will make businesses cough up money without reliance on the (to some) questionable EULA. --=20 mmccul@earthlink.net Mark McCullough "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that=20 we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only=20 unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American=20 public." (Theodore Roosevelt, 1918) --=-8huk9MrHljUsYsH24w39 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQA+RzZ+Lt0nxEAuAy8RAjFpAJ0U7xT8c8pDIAt9c7IoNjjDj93dmwCfXx1V TmdSPZnb0Ahyf/IkLFSCNZ0= =qyjc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-8huk9MrHljUsYsH24w39-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 10 00:46:54 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1A8ksR05624 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 00:46:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 03:46:37 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] auto-upgrade Message-ID: <20030210084637.GA8919@snew.com> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <20030210032913.0DC5A17A84@porfidio.atstake.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030210032913.0DC5A17A84@porfidio.atstake.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Dan Geer (geer@atstake.com): > At the risk of causing a blizzard, what requirements would > you (plural) place on any system of auto-upgrade? Allow me to take, perhaps as devil's advocate, the vendor's POV (having recently worked for a software vendor). And then I'll follow up with the schizophrenic (ok, MPD) viewpoint as a system admin. Our bane, at a vendor, was: - Clients with problems that had long been solved because they were running old software. - Clients with poor performance with our software and finding that, oh, they are running a minimally patched, very old version of their OS of choice. Why so old? Their IT department hadn't tested and approved a version of the OS that was < 2 years old and hadn't tested and approved recent patches. - Recent potential clients upset that we didn't support SunOS 5.5.1 (e.g.) (SunOS 5.6 predated our first software release). So we dedicated sorely overstrained resources to figuring out what patch levels we needed and documenting them well. Doing QA for a system app takes some time and several people. Supporting 2-3 versions of several Unixes can mean 15-20 OS versions to test. Sub-patch levels within that just suck more time and often human resources. What things don't we fix, what features don't we add, because of this? Stability is good (I used to work on Wall St). Running really out of date OSs and software is bad (colleague still on Wall St can't upgrade machines from Solaris 2.5.1 because their vendor won't support something from this century). Do I, as a system admin, want automatic upgrades? No. Do I want easy upgrades? Damn straight. My Mac laptop has a lovely "Software Update" feature that's make my life better and I'm sure has made Apple's support cost far less. Would we, as Internet users/leaders, benefit from these upgrades? Well, if certain large OS vendors actually had true security fixes for their OSs, then perhaps the massive holes we regularly see used for DDOS attacks - Cheswick's "field after field of the same strain of wheat" - might be reduced. That's the choice of the fields of sheep running anti-competitive, poorly written operating systems and not feeling they have a choice. Kicking away the soabox, for the end-users, I think that the positive security implecations of automating updates are significant. For large systems supposedly run by "professionals" (that's us and our peers), there are several negative implecations. Being able to hop onto my Suse box, my FreeBSD box, my Solaris 9 box and run a "check for updates and (binary) patches" would be a joy. Especially if it just generates a report and perhaps a shell script that I could edit/run to do the update. Especially if it could be taught to check against my company's "golden master" server, rather than the vendor site. Many of us have used SUP and related tools to automatically update and install binaries from a central resource. The new thing here is that some folks want it mandatory to check against machines out of our realm of control. FreeBSD was muttering about treating the base as small bits of OS that can be treated as smaller bits that "all-of-base". "Update available the 'roff suite - install it now? (click for details)" "update available for lpd" That was a while ago. The commercial Unixes do have binary patches but they aren't often forthcoming about what *exactly* are the changes in them. A change to a variable in Solaris 2.6 made it a miserable NFS client (limiting unlink(3)s to something like 30/second which really sucks in an environment where we needed more than that and had no source code to figure out what the first 12 letters of a library call did). The fix was easy; 3 people 16hrs/day for several days trying to find the problem and eliminating problem candidates was expensive. (testing for that type of env is non-trivial). The only docs in later OS patches where "fixes ${SomeObtuseBugNumbers}" In *this* light, that's not enough for me to feel secure (as a system admin, not as a vendor) to trust the vendors for automatic patches to my enterprise critical systems. But if the automatic update debate brings us easier updates than most vendors offer, then good. On the far side of the vendor, as a client, I get really tired of mandatory high cost updates just to be updated and getting features I don't want or need, but that include fixes to near show-stopper bugs. ("If you upgrade to 3.0, it won't break when you try to get it to do what it should do but you have to pay a bunch for that upgrade.") Businesses and our customers are not terribly excited about the generally low quality of software out there and the amounts being spent to do their work. A prevalence of this low quality means that those companies that *do* have high quality often go unrecognized and that the pressure is high to save resources and do it the half-assed way. In the "software nuclear winter" we're in, this temptation is high. In the long run, there will be backlash. There is right now. Automatic upgrades *do* imply high maintainance of the current software. It's clearly desirable in some form for OSs. Is it good for us as system admins to push vendors for this as well? From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 10 00:56:21 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1A8uLW05895 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 00:56:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 03:56:18 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] PC recommendations Message-ID: <20030210085618.GB8919@snew.com> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <200302082130.55041.scott.burch@camberwind.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200302082130.55041.scott.burch@camberwind.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Scott Burch (scott.burch@camberwind.com): > Andrew, > > I don't know what your budget is or the nature of your project, but I would > strongly suggest you look at the Proliant DL or ML servers from HP: > > http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/servers/platforms/ > > I worked extensively with many of the Compaq proliant servers prior to them > merging with HP, the hardware is designed very well, very good remote > management features (Check out the Remote Insight Lights-Out Edition II > board). I have also used some of the Dell rackmount hardware, but personally It's time for the DOS intended PC BIOS to go away. I can power Netra's off (and on!) from afar. I just had a dead disk replaced in a 1995 SPARC 10, did a remote diskless boot and installed the software on it. It's 300 miles away. This extra cost "Remote Management" management that subverts the keyboard/VGA is just not acceptable and a big remaining difference between "real servers" and PCs, to me. > I don't think the Dell hardware is designed as well as the HP hardware. Having just tried to upgrade a friend's older Dell desktop, and learning that it's ATX-like, but the power supply uses the same connectors but is not QUITE a standard, I'll agree. OTOHO, Compaq was notorious for proprietary memory, power supplies, etc. The DL 380-G2's RAID controller was impossible to get working with a BSD without information that wasn't easy to get. The merger is done and hopefully some of the confusion is lessened as they settle. > If you have any specific questions about the HP hardware, etc. I can put you > in touch with someone who is familiar with implenting their current hardware. > We have between 300 and 500 Compaq/HP rackmount servers (W2K infrastructure, > etc.). > > It's been 3 years since I worked directly with the Compaq/HP hardware, but > I've seen the servers that exist today, and they have improved them even > further. They have continued to get better. I think the Blade technology is the most interesting stuff coming out. I've seen them with Pentium 4s, Itanics, and hacked Alpha versions. For rendering, web farms, etc, I don't see any reason not to have a gang of essentially single board computers. They don't *become* 8 processor machines, but they certainly don't *cost* like 8 CPU machines. With Win2k, you need 8 separate boxes (7 Active Dir and an Exchange server can now handle the load that 8 Exchange servers used to handle!). From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 10 07:31:42 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1AFVgd28355 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 07:31:42 -0800 (PST) From: dkk@MIT.EDU Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:31:34 -0500 To: Dan Geer Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] auto-upgrade Message-ID: <20030210153134.GA15381@mit.edu> References: <20030210032913.0DC5A17A84@porfidio.atstake.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030210032913.0DC5A17A84@porfidio.atstake.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 10:09:50PM -0500, Dan Geer wrote: > At the risk of causing a blizzard, what requirements would > you (plural) place on any system of auto-upgrade? My answer to your question is based on my view of a likely future for software upgrades, so let me describe that possible future. I am not a lawyer, nor have I studied any area of law. Now, on to that possible future: As current trends continue, Internet security concerns continue to grow in influence while commercial-software business concerns lose influence or hold steady. DDoS attacks and various other kinds of security incidents continue to damage parties who have no agreement with the software publisher at fault for the incident, and the damaged party therefor never agreed in any way to the license in which the publisher waives all responsibility for the failings of the software. The publisher (not the user) of the damaging software still owns that software -- and this property of the publisher is causing financial damage to third parties. Through either legislation or judicial precedent, the publishers of software start being held accountable for attacks on (at least) non-customers -- attacks that were made possible by the software publisher's negligence. The courts or Congress decide that there is a responsible level of vendor care for software, similar to recalls in the automotive industry. As a result, the software industry has to live up to these expectations of responsible behavior. The easiest way to live up to these expectations is by making it ~clearly the user's negligence (not the publisher's) if the software results in damages to a third party. The publisher must make it clear when software reaches its end of life (with some minimum expectation, e.g. 1 year after purchase), must make it obvious when installed software requires a fix (a "safety recall"), and must make the implementation of this fix both relatively easy and free of charge (unless that software has passed its end of life). The EULA for a software fix cannot further limit the customer's rights (beyond the original EULA) or the publisher will still be liable for damages caused if the fix is not applied. (It was the publisher's fault for insisting on a cost (of sorts) for the repair.) Software publishers won't want to ship feature changes/additions along with a fix (be it a patch or an upgrade) if they can avoid it, since they are on the hook to provide an easy software fix whenever possible. Any customers who have a good reason to shun the fix would leave the publisher still liable. Publishers of at-risk software (e.g. of web servers, but probably not of unnetworked menubar applets) would have an incentive to reduce their rate of new releases, to reduce customer choice, and to retire old product versions as soon as possible. Customers would be paying them more, since the alternative is to become liable for damages caused by outdated software. Eventually, market forces should balance out and we'll pay for what we're getting, which will be safer and more reliable software. Maybe some publishers will start *selling* (instead of licensing) software, in order to reduce their liability. Large corporations may start (again) to shun free or open software, due to the inability to pin the blame on the publisher. ---- I don't know if the above scenario will come to be, but it seems almost a necessity. The liability of writing or distributing free software is unclear in that future, and would probably result in court battles involving the usual foes (commercial software publishers versus supporters of free, Free or open source software). So, to answer your question: 1. Mandatory (or at least default-on) checking whether software is in need of a fix (patch or upgrade). (This is a given, for how you stated your question.) 2. Default automatic application of software fixes. 3. The ability to disable automatic fixes. 4. The ability to point the software at a private reference system, instead of the publisher's reference system. This redirection would be obvious, and would preferably be per-package rather than necessarily for all software installed on a computer. 5. Mandatory (or at least default-on) periodic notification, on a non-auto-fix system, that it still lacks a required software fix, with instructions (or reference thereto) for manually and easily applying the fix. 6. A clear and documented update path from an expired version of the software (for which fixes have been discontinued) to a current version. In the case of commercial software, this product update can, and probably will: cost money, include feature and UI changes, and introduce many new bugs. [I distinguish between "update" and "upgrade." An "upgrade" is an improvement to the software, such as a security fix. An "update" is a newer version of the software. Ideally, upgrades are a superset of updates.] From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 10 07:32:10 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1AFWAE28375 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 07:32:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: goodall.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 09:31:13 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: Chuck Yerkes cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] PC recommendations In-Reply-To: <20030210085618.GB8919@snew.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.3 required=5.1 tests=CARRIAGE_RETURNS,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT_PINE,X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.43 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 10 Feb 2003, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > Quoting Scott Burch (scott.burch@camberwind.com): > > Andrew, > > > > I don't know what your budget is or the nature of your project, but I would > > strongly suggest you look at the Proliant DL or ML servers from HP: > > > > http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/servers/platforms/ > > > > I worked extensively with many of the Compaq proliant servers prior to them > > merging with HP, the hardware is designed very well, very good remote > > management features (Check out the Remote Insight Lights-Out Edition II > > board). I have also used some of the Dell rackmount hardware, but personally > > It's time for the DOS intended PC BIOS to go away. I can power > Netra's off (and on!) from afar. I just had a dead disk replaced > in a 1995 SPARC 10, did a remote diskless boot and installed the > software on it. It's 300 miles away. This extra cost "Remote > Management" management that subverts the keyboard/VGA is just not > acceptable and a big remaining difference between "real servers" and > PCs, to me. fwiw - you get the same capabilities these days with a descent PC (.e.g www.rackable.com which has LOM capabilities for remote power cycle, etc builtin and serial wiring to the BIOS) http://www.rackable.com/solutions/servers_1200.htm up to 6G ram, 2 CPU, 2 66mhz 64bit PCI, and LOM in 1U. lom - power cycle, change bios, monitor environemtn, trigger LEDs on senrors, change LCD text. (I second the recommendation that somebody else gave for Andrew to look into rackable. The have the most promising PC/LOM integration I've seen. Of course, if you've got low paid 24x7 onsite slaves, maybe it's not a factor) Doug From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 10 07:57:22 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1AFvMk28966 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 07:57:22 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200302101555.HAA17019@biz.compata.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.3 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] auto-upgrade In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:31:34 EST." <20030210153134.GA15381@mit.edu> From: Dave Close X-message-flag: Did you know MS Outlook is evil? X-Face: $?&5f7w4GjUJOb-[FmngebA}V`5Dv)QEdHg|d%mytVRm]'o}*{J6:PP%(LfN LmOcb#>"^wDF*|ZzuS??S*vLH[.miV(Large corporations may start (again) to shun free or open software, >due to the inability to pin the blame on the publisher. I find your analysis compelling except that I think you are wrong to equate "free" software with "open source" software. I have used and seen advertised other software which is both commercial and open source. Granted, the open source nature was semi-mandatory since the code was written in Perl, but it is wrong to assume all OSS is free and without a responsible vendor. -- Dave Close, Compata, Costa Mesa CA "You don't fight wars by blowing rose dave@compata.com, +1 714 434 7359 water through corn stalks." dhclose@alumni.caltech.edu -- Abraham Lincoln From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 10 08:49:28 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1AGnS629776 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 08:49:28 -0800 (PST) From: dkk@MIT.EDU Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:45:35 -0500 To: Dave Close Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] auto-upgrade Message-ID: <20030210164535.GB15381@mit.edu> References: <20030210153134.GA15381@mit.edu> <200302101555.HAA17019@biz.compata.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200302101555.HAA17019@biz.compata.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 07:55:56AM -0800, Dave Close wrote: > it is wrong to assume all OSS is free and without a responsible > vendor. That was not my assumption. I just didn't want to write a book worth of explanation. :-) My assumption is that if an organization publishes software for which the source code is available, then that organization may be free (or freer) of liability on the grounds that the customer is in complete control, and may fix the software without relying on the vendor (assuming a source patch is avialable). With closed-source software, the vender is definitely in control, and therefor probably liable. When the software is both open-source and free of cost, the publisher is likely to be as free as possible of liability. When commercial (paid) software comes with the source code (open or not), and when source patches are available, the liability is likely to be somewhere in between. I expect the publisher would want to notify the customer in writing of the bug and the fix, and maybe insist upon a signed acknowledgement of that notification, to free itself of all liability. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 10 10:11:33 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1AIBWZ00950 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:11:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <367C011C07C1EE4B90C684299E10901F0FF570@exchange.mda.ca> From: John LLOYD To: Dan Geer , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] auto-upgrade Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:11:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Here are a few requirements for you: -- better information management of patch (small changes) functionality changes Not a text file, in other words. For example, a test case showing before and after behaviour. -- better information management of software component relationships Some explanation: software on a computer comes from numerous sources, and has many functional and operational relationships. For example, the tcp/ip software provides functions to a web server; the os kernel provides functions to both. In operation, a GUI user interface starts and stops a variety of applications. There is no way for a vendor to define this relationship in advance (I obtain my software from different sources); but operationally we know the user is going to start his email client from his GUI desktop software. Some of this information is available, e.g. Debian has much better management of functionally dependant packages. The operational stuff is harder but not impossible to get. Some counterexamples: Sun patch database. Yuch. A "jumbo patch" containing 30k lines of text, including relationships, plus all the patches and little or no control over subsets and zero control over unintended consequences like patching configuration files as well as software binaries. -- a tool to define our own software component relationships in addition to vendors For example, we write some of our own web app server code and want to fit this into the description -- tools to model potential problems, a.k.a. risk analysis based on the above info. If I can apply a patch to fix TCP sequence generation, I should be able to see what software is going to be affected (most everything) and be able to plan and perform my tests. If a vendor patches gawk, I can find out what ancient scripts might break. My response to these two situations is going to be vastly different and tools should help me plan this. -- tools to reliably redistribute configurations from test boxes (integration sites) to production boxes; and back again for debugging the things -- a useful configuration management tool for operating systems and application software In the technical sense of CM. This is classically defined as being able to report the configuration of the system on any given date. A lot of necessary CM things flow from that statement. Since software is multi-vendor, some kind of open standard mechanism is required to represent this information. That is merely an implementation detail. The key is to provide something better than linear text to help the sysadmin discover the benefits, problems and risks of changing system configurations by applying patches (fixes) and updates (new or modified functionality). ---John From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 10 11:05:05 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1AJ55R01992 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:05:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:05:00 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] auto-upgrade Message-ID: <20030210190500.GA13753@snew.com> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <20030210153134.GA15381@mit.edu> <200302101555.HAA17019@biz.compata.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200302101555.HAA17019@biz.compata.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Ok, more long rambles... Quoting Dave Close (dave@compata.com): > dkk@MIT.EDU wrote: > >Large corporations may start (again) to shun free or open software, > >due to the inability to pin the blame on the publisher. > > I find your analysis compelling except that I think you are wrong to > equate "free" software with "open source" software. I have used and > seen advertised other software which is both commercial and open source. > Granted, the open source nature was semi-mandatory since the code was > written in Perl, but it is wrong to assume all OSS is free and without > a responsible vendor. And, frankly, I've worked at places with SunOS source code. Certainly not "free" or "open source" by any definition, but reviewable by those with (paid) access to it. And fixing SunOS 4.1.2 ifconfig's wrong netmask was a joy. You can have access to the code and many large companies do. That said, I've worked with Open Source in very large corps just because 1) we had better actual support and 2) we had the ability to review and fix problems that were low-ish priority to the vendor (eg. Hesiod support in sendmail so I could put 30,000 aliases into DNS TXT records and have a "kill -HUP `cat /etc/named.pid`" update a global aliases on 3000 machines... Regarding support, we had a long list of vendors ignoring our needs with "That will be fixed in the next release". Combined with "your next release only runs on the current OS (say, 4.1.3), and we're stuck on 4.1.1 because another vendor only runs on THAT and we were screwed. One case was a manager who was OSS phobic and insisted on running ptroff (from adobe). For unreproducable reasons, some of the printers hung regularly in continuous use. ptroff wasn't supported, only ran on 4.1.1 and didn't do what we needed. But we couldn't use groff because it wasn't supported and .... circular arguments abounded. If finally took a head trader to notice (with some prodding from one os his guys :) that *my* printer never ever hung, but I could use non-supported stuff as a non-production guy. It took him saying to the manager: "You have a tool that works and you won't replace the broken one becuase it's not supported. But the supported one won't get fixed because you can't find the exact sequence to reproduce the problem. Make the problem go away by next week or get out." (words to that effect). We got groff on the machines :) Corp can buy support for sendmail, BIND, DHCP, and many of the core infrastructure tools out there. Perl support abounds in a variety of ways. Companies want off-the-shelf tools that do deeply custom work. At wall st companies, floors of programmers write custom work that gives them a competitive edge. But a push to lower costs means buying more packaged software that they then demand do unusual things which companies have low motivation to support (you don't dedicate an engineer to one client's needs without cash). So the pendulum swings back and forth. Right now we have lots of off the shelf software to do things that do it really poorly (MS Exchange jumps to mind). And over a couple years, CxO's realize that they pay as much in support and hardware costs to run THAT as they did to run their "custom" stuff they used to have - a SPARC 5 or Pentium/300 running Cyrus and Sendmail supporting mail for 1000 users ("free") with a smart guy on staff to keep it happy. Now we have 3-4 machines and 2-3 system admins providing the same service with more downtime and virus alerts every 20 minutes. I don't see businesses moving to or away from Open Source, I see them trying to duck paying lots and lots of money for what they see as invisible infrastructure. Open Source cost people, proprietary costs nasty licensing schemes for mediocre software and hardware and lots of cheaper people. To these people, we're still often the computer janitors. There's a certain umbrage in knowing that you're paying 10-30% of your budget on stuff that you just don't know what it does. We've all run into that. My other early career used to be doing sound and lighting for music, stages and rock and roll. Groupies never run up to a sound guy and say "Wow, there was no feedback and they all sounded right". They only ever notice where it's wrong. I seem to like that cause system administration is the same. A good CxO knows how bad it can be, but many just see us as "walking overhead." chuck From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 10 23:51:31 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1B7pVE21860 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 23:51:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 02:51:28 -0500 (EST) From: Adam and Christine Levin X-X-Sender: levins@westnet To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] ecommerce software In-Reply-To: <20030210190500.GA13753@snew.com> Message-ID: References: <20030210153134.GA15381@mit.edu> <200302101555.HAA17019@biz.compata.com> <20030210190500.GA13753@snew.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I'm curious if anyone out there is using (suffering through?) BroadVision's One to One Commerce software? If so, I'd like to have a private discussion with you about problems you've had with it. It's not a decision for us -- we've been using it for years, unfortunately. Thanks, -Adam From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 11 07:46:48 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1BFkm014939 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 07:46:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:44:21 -0500 (EST) From: Scott Walters To: Dan Geer cc: Subject: Re: [SAGE] auto-upgrade In-Reply-To: <20030210032913.0DC5A17A84@porfidio.atstake.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Dan Geer wrote: > > At the risk of causing a blizzard, what requirements would > you (plural) place on any system of auto-upgrade? Two things for sure. No matter what kind of auto-update (auto or controlled, more below) it MUST do two things: 1) Audit. Tell me what it would do/touch if I did a 'real' run. 2) Rollback. I want a switch to roll back the system to before it got changed. Those two things said, no way I'd have production machines constantly looking to upgrade themselves fixing one problem I haven't seen yet or giving me a feature I don't need, but breaking things I use and have always worked. I'd imagine the camps will be divided on this because of the differences in environments, most influenced by Change Management procedures. I've worked for an Internet startup (fix it now on live systems, no test env), and large corporations with formal change management procedures and dev/test envs. I really don't think you can have a reliable environment where you do not control, document, and schedule change. So in an environment where there is formal CM, no way for automatically 'auto-update'. But I wouldn't have a problem using auto-update from the vendor if it had passed QA in dev and test, so controlled auto-update. In trying to keeps systems 'patched', from experience I've found it more time efficient, just to apply vendor recommended patches and see if it works, rather then trying to only apply patches applicable. If it breaks, then look deeper. Now, if I were thrown back into the overworked, understaffed, unrealistic expectations environment, I probably would do the auto auto-update, because it is the lesser of two evils. So I think there is a need for the tool in CM and non-CM environments. Just give me the two required features: Audit and rollback, and it will 'fit' anywhere. -- Scott Walters -PacketPusher From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 11 11:21:23 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1BJLMO17458 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 11:21:22 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: "Bryce T. Pier" Reply-To: btpier@visi.com To: Subject: [SAGE] staffing recommendations Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:14:47 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200302111014.47594.btpier@visi.com> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Status: RO Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I'm working on a project to do the IT build-out and staffing recommendations for a new 24x7 cable network and I need some input. They will eventually have about 300 employees and production crews on the road. The systems I'm specifying are going to br mostly unix and use some sort of thin client for desktops. I assume they are going to have to have at least 1 help desk person on site 24x7. Do you feel that it will be necessary to have a unix admin on site 24x7 as well or will just having people on call be enough? What are others doing in 24x7 enviroments? Thank you for you input! -- Bryce T. Pier btpier@visi.com We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, crystal and scanner, holographic demons and invocations of equations. These are tools we employ and we know many things. -Elric, Babylon5 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 11 13:53:35 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1BLrYq18877 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 13:53:34 -0800 (PST) From: "Mark Verber" To: Cc: Subject: RE: [SAGE] staffing recommendations Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 13:12:05 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200302111014.47594.btpier@visi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Status: RO Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > I'm working on a project to do the IT build-out and staffing > recommendations > ... text deleted ... > I assume they are going to have to have at least 1 help desk > person on site 24x7 One isn't a good number. You really want two for a number of reasons including: 1) Coverage when someone is late, in an accident, sick, had a death in the family, etc. 2) You don't have to worry about the graveyard falling asleep, getting stuck in the bathroom, etc 3) Companionship / teamwork / accountability for the off hour shifts 4) Anytime there is a serious issue you want at least two people. One person to coordinate communications, and one who can take actions. > Do you feel that it will be necessary to have a > unix admin on site 24x7 as well or will just having people > on call be enough? Depends the sort of service you are running, what sort of SLA you have given to your customers, how frequently you are willing to miss your SLA, what the customer expectations have been set to, and what engineering -vs- operations trade offs have been made. Anytime there is an issue you have to: Detect, Diagnosis, Mask the Failure, and Fully Recover the failed component. Careful engineering can speed up each of these steps, and lower the skill level needed to handle them in the moment. For example: a well engineered system with a high MTBF and good automatic fault detection which generates pages, and a MTTR of 4 hours can be run without a 24x7 desk at all. a system which has full redundancy, decent instrumentation with a good alert management system, complete documentation, and business rules baked into operational tools and an SLA which gives your 2 hours to recover the service could be run by a "helpdesk / NOC" without significant sys admin experience and sysadmins on call. But in most cases there isn't the budget or time to properly build a service so that it can run without expert human masters. So there is an expectation that humans will fill the gaps. This is the typical case. Given the system you are building, How much attention has been given to each of the steps above? How quickly can problems detected? Once problems are detected is there enough fault isolation and redundancy that you can merely remove the failing component, or do you need to do complex diagnosis to understand the problem so you can fix it? Figure that from detection, to having an on call person looking at the problem can take upwards of 1 hour, assuming a complex system... another hour to diagnosis, and then maybe 30 minutes to mask the failure. So with an SLA of 2.5 hours you will *on average* meet your SLA while avoid having sys admins doing shift work. If you want to make your SLA in all but the most exceptional cases you want an MTTR target of 4 hours or more. Otherwise you need to plan for highly skilled sysadm 24x7. > What are others doing in 24x7 environments? I have worked in places which used sysadmins with pagers and no human 24x7, and a customer expectation of 2 hour MTTR. Sys admins got very tired because the service was not sufficiently engineered to achieve this without humans who were avail 24x7. This was no fun. I have worked places which had a low trained 24x7 NOC and sysadmins on call. The sysadmins got called *a lot* which was no fun for anyone. At my current work we have a two deep 24x7 NOC who are SAGE level II-III.5 plus technology experts (SAGE III-IV+) who are on call and get called every now and then. This has worked well for us. It might seem like overkill, but we have an extremely aggressive internal targets and are approaching 5 9s availability. --mark From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 12 08:32:02 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1CGW2H16386 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 08:32:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 16:31:49 +0000 From: Ade Rixon To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris Message-ID: <20030212163149.GA26747@trinity.fluff.org> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <20030130123458.GA22892@rfc822.net> <2147483647.1043935292@slip-32-103-141-115.mn.us.prserv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1043935292@slip-32-103-141-115.mn.us.prserv.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Home-Page: http://www.big.bubbles.btinternet.co.uk/ X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk 30 Jan 02:01:32 PM: Meanwhile in the Sheraton, Blayne Puklich wrote: > complete backout is possible by just booting your old system disk(s). The > process works best when you have OS and data separated, and you'll need at > least a single spare disk with which to do the LU-flash to. Generally we > have four per system: two active mirrored system disks and the others are a > spare and new boot environment disk. You could probably get by with three > though. >-- End of excerpt from Blayne Puklich Some of the low end Sparcs don't support more than two (internal) disks (and "some" managers are stingy when it comes to buying more disks ;-). Has anyone here tried splitting a mirrored boot disk, running LU on the inactive submirror and upgrading from that? (Granted, you are vulnerable to disk failure while doing the upgrade.) Cheers, Ade_ / -- |Ade Rixon|| http://www.big.bubbles.btinternet.co.uk/ || ade.rixon@bigfoot.com | From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 12 15:15:13 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1CNFDa21177 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:15:13 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Burch To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 17:10:18 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <2147483647.1043935292@slip-32-103-141-115.mn.us.prserv.net> <20030212163149.GA26747@trinity.fluff.org> In-Reply-To: <20030212163149.GA26747@trinity.fluff.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-UID: 2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200302121710.18112.scott.burch@camberwind.com> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wednesday 12 February 2003 10:31 am, Ade Rixon wrote: > Some of the low end Sparcs don't support more than two (internal) disks > (and "some" managers are stingy when it comes to buying more disks ;-). > Has anyone here tried splitting a mirrored boot disk, running LU on the > inactive submirror and upgrading from that? (Granted, you are vulnerable > to disk failure while doing the upgrade.) > > Cheers, > Ade_ > / Ade, You could break the mirror and then use the inactive mirror disk to create your boot environment (overwriting the mirror, and then upgrade that inactive boot environment. Once the BE is upgraded you can: 1) Swap the mirror with the primary (after editing vfstab, etc.) 2) If you have a known good backup you could simply use LU to copy the BE on the mirror back to the original disk (then you wouldn't have to edit the vfstab, etc.). I've used Live Upgrades quite a bit to upgrade servers from 2.6-8 and it generally works very well....it only gets a little crazy when you have things like Veritas and EMC PowerPath, but even then you can use Live Upgrade. One other option you can use if you don't want to run unmirrored (and you have a spare machine) is to restore a ufsdump to a disk on another machine (same arch) and do the upgrade there, then move the disk back. Unfortunately for you it sounds like you don't have any spare disks, so you probably don't have spare machines either. In any case this is a good exercise, especially if you are ever involved in restoring systems at a DR site. Your DR procedures need to be flexible enough to handle restoring to dissimilar hardware (fortunately you can do this with Solaris), the hard part is restoring the Volume Manager configuration (mksysb on AIX is very useful for this). With Veritas you need to write scripts or use Bare Metal Restore (but I've no experience with BMR, but I here it can handle restoring to disimilar hardware. -Scott -- Scott Burch http://www.camberwind.com/ for more contact information From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 12 15:29:42 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1CNTgG21567 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:29:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: goodall.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 17:29:36 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: Scott Burch cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] upgrade or reinstall, Solaris In-Reply-To: <200302121710.18112.scott.burch@camberwind.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=5.1 tests=CARRIAGE_RETURNS,IN_REP_TO,NO_EXPERIENCE,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,USER_AGENT_PINE,X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.43 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 12 Feb 2003, Scott Burch wrote: > On Wednesday 12 February 2003 10:31 am, Ade Rixon wrote: > > > Some of the low end Sparcs don't support more than two (internal) disks > > (and "some" managers are stingy when it comes to buying more disks ;-). > > Has anyone here tried splitting a mirrored boot disk, running LU on the > > inactive submirror and upgrading from that? (Granted, you are vulnerable > > to disk failure while doing the upgrade.) > > > > Cheers, > > Ade_ > > / > > Ade, > > You could break the mirror and then use the inactive mirror disk to create > your boot environment (overwriting the mirror, and then upgrade that inactive > boot environment. Once the BE is upgraded you can: > > 1) Swap the mirror with the primary (after editing vfstab, etc.) > 2) If you have a known good backup you could simply use LU to copy the BE on > the mirror back to the original disk (then you wouldn't have to edit the > vfstab, etc.). > > I've used Live Upgrades quite a bit to upgrade servers from 2.6-8 and it > generally works very well....it only gets a little crazy when you have things > like Veritas and EMC PowerPath, but even then you can use Live Upgrade. One > other option you can use if you don't want to run unmirrored (and you have a > spare machine) is to restore a ufsdump to a disk on another machine (same > arch) and do the upgrade there, then move the disk back. Unfortunately for > you it sounds like you don't have any spare disks, so you probably don't have > spare machines either. In any case this is a good exercise, especially if you > are ever involved in restoring systems at a DR site. Your DR procedures need > to be flexible enough to handle restoring to dissimilar hardware (fortunately > you can do this with Solaris), the hard part is restoring the Volume Manager > configuration (mksysb on AIX is very useful for this). With Veritas you need > to write scripts or use Bare Metal Restore (but I've no experience with BMR, > but I here it can handle restoring to disimilar hardware. > There are a number of Veritas disaster recovery scripts contributed at http://www.eng.auburn.edu/pub/mail-lists/ssastuff/recovery.html (main page at http://www.eng.auburn.edu/pub/mail-lists/ssastuff/ or aliased at http://www.will.to/vxstuff) Doug From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 13 06:49:58 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1DEnwE18062 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 06:49:58 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: "Bryce T. Pier" Reply-To: btpier@visi.com To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] group scheduling Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:58:52 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200302130758.52015.btpier@visi.com> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Status: RO Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk During a session at this years LISA conference there was a short discussion of calendaring/group scheduling products but it appeared that no one was actually really happy with their calendar solution. Do any of you have a calendar solution that you do like and would recommend? -- Bryce T. Pier btpier@visi.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 13 12:59:15 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1DKxF624267 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:59:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:58:59 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: [SAGE] Source Code Management Suggestions From: "Derek J. Balling" To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk After much complaining from my users about CVS[1], I'm on the prowl for a new SCM solution. Our typical environment is a team of six to eight developers and administrators, working in a total of about five repositories. There is typically no code-forking, but there is abundant reverting (and the single biggest support request I get it "how do I go back to version X.XXX", or "I reverted to X.XXX and now when I do 'cvs update' I'm not seeing the newer versions, and I know X.(XXX+5) is available now") So frequent reversions, so it should be easy to do. Ideally, for the typical clue-level of our programming staff, it'd be ideal to be able to do a revert/commit combo (e.g., current version is 1.15, reverting to 1.10 would make 1.16 be the same as 1.10). I want the ability to tag a given list of files that are, say, snapshots of what versions were in production on a given date. I can do this with CVS, but if a particular version of a file doesn't change for 3 years, it'd end up with 156 tags attached to it. Sorta an ugly solution. Likewise, it'd be nice to be able to see "what do I have in my sandbox which HASN'T got a pushed-to-production tag", e.g., maybe I worked on that program fixing a bug, but the bugfix never got pushed. I don't want solutions which require bloated solutions (e.g., SCM applications that require a web server and apache modules to run are not acceptable, so that rules out subversion) The ability to limit read and write access on a per user basis. Must work on UNIX (Linux and AIX specifically, preferably also OSX, since we're migrating our workstation platform to OSX this year). Anyone have any suggestions? :) Thanks, D [1] and, to be fair, it has its flaws :) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 13 15:07:26 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1DN7Qt25705 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:07:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] group scheduling From: Jeremy Frank To: btpier@visi.com Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <200302130758.52015.btpier@visi.com> References: <200302130758.52015.btpier@visi.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-CND/bPUmUYY+LyP5jP5q" Organization: Message-Id: <1045177595.4557.7322.camel@optimus.dmotorworks.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.1 Date: 13 Feb 2003 17:06:35 -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --=-CND/bPUmUYY+LyP5jP5q Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We are currently pondering Niku (www.niku.com). Some of the other admins here got to see a live demo and liked it quite a bit. Unfortunately, we haven't gone much further than a few meetings due to other projects with higher priorities. Core features list: http://www.niku.com/02-eBusiness_Applications/01-Products/01-Niku_Enterprise/core_function.html There is a project management component: http://www.niku.com/02-eBusiness_Applications/01-Products/01-Niku_Enterprise/project_mgmt.html Flash demo: http://www.niku.com/02-eBusiness_Applications/01-Products/01-Niku_Enterprise/05-Demo/index.html -- Jeremy On Thu, 2003-02-13 at 07:58, Bryce T. Pier wrote: > During a session at this years LISA conference there was a short discussion of > calendaring/group scheduling products but it appeared that no one was > actually really happy with their calendar solution. Do any of you have a > calendar solution that you do like and would recommend? --=-CND/bPUmUYY+LyP5jP5q Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We are currently pondering Niku (www.niku.com). Some of the other admins here got to see a live demo and liked it quite a bit. Unfortunately, we haven't gone much further than a few meetings due to other projects with higher priorities.

Core features list:
http://www.niku.com/02-eBusiness_Applications/01-Products/01-Niku_Enterprise/core_function.html

There is a project management component:
http://www.niku.com/02-eBusiness_Applications/01-Products/01-Niku_Enterprise/project_mgmt.html

Flash demo:
http://www.niku.com/02-eBusiness_Applications/01-Products/01-Niku_Enterprise/05-Demo/index.html

--
Jeremy



On Thu, 2003-02-13 at 07:58, Bryce T. Pier wrote: 
During a session at this years LISA conference there was a short discussion of 
calendaring/group scheduling products but it appeared that no one was 
actually really happy with their calendar solution. Do any of you have a 
calendar solution that you do like and would recommend?
--=-CND/bPUmUYY+LyP5jP5q-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 13 15:31:58 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1DNVws26284 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:31:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:31:51 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Jeremy Frank cc: btpier@visi.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] group scheduling Message-ID: <46280000.1045179111@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <1045177595.4557.7322.camel@optimus.dmotorworks.com> References: <200302130758.52015.btpier@visi.com> <1045177595.4557.7322.camel@optimus.dmotorworks.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > We are currently pondering Niku (www.niku.com). There ought to be a law. Specifically, that marketing web sites have a button on them somewhere labelled "What is it?" that leads to page with a plain English description (i.e. written by someone other than the marketing department). The words "solution" and "innovative" would be forbidden. *sigh* :-) So, what _is_ Niku, in 25 words or less? That fact that it came up in connection with the above Subject should be a clue, but so far I haven't made the connection with anything at their site. Yet I'm curious. I'm using TWiki (www.twiki.org) as a "web-based central document repository". Are these things even distantly related? From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 14 13:39:20 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1ELdKe14428 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:39:20 -0800 (PST) From: "W. Curtis Preston" To: , Subject: RE: [SAGE] group scheduling Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:38:53 -0800 Message-ID: <007901c2d479$de0758f0$3701f20a@VAIO> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <200302130758.52015.btpier@visi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk There is an all-in-one Linux server that I have become very in love with lately, and they're about to release an Exchange drop-in replacement that includes group scheduling, meeting invitations, and they've already got a web app that it would integrate with. That's probably not what you're looking for, but this box is way cool: http://www.net-itech.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sage-members@usenix.org > [mailto:owner-sage-members@usenix.org] On Behalf Of Bryce T. Pier > Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 5:59 AM > To: sage-members@usenix.org > Subject: [SAGE] group scheduling > > > During a session at this years LISA conference there was a > short discussion of > calendaring/group scheduling products but it appeared that no one was > actually really happy with their calendar solution. Do any of > you have a > calendar solution that you do like and would recommend? > > -- > Bryce T. Pier btpier@visi.com > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 15 12:46:56 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1FKkuH14249 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 15 Feb 2003 12:46:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: slicker.dcs.gla.ac.uk: partain set sender to partain@dcs.gla.ac.uk using -f To: "Derek J. Balling" Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: Source Code Management Suggestions References: From: Will Partain Date: 15 Feb 2003 20:46:48 +0000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Military Intelligence) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk "Derek J. Balling" writes: > After much complaining from my users about CVS[1], I'm on the prowl > for a new SCM solution. ... > > I don't want solutions which require bloated solutions (e.g., SCM > applications that require a web server and apache modules to run are > not acceptable, so that rules out subversion) Might Subversion using the ra_local (repository access through the local filesystem) module be OK? Will "Subversion watcher, not user" Partain From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 20 04:17:38 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1KCHcs24247 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 04:17:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 18:37:30 -0500 From: Joseph S D Yao To: "Derek J. Balling" Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Source Code Management Suggestions Message-ID: <20030219183730.D21393@gwyn.tux.org> Mail-Followup-To: "Derek J. Balling" , sage-members@usenix.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from dredd@megacity.org on Thu, Feb 13, 2003 at 03:58:59PM -0500 X-Accepted-File-Formats: ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 13, 2003 at 03:58:59PM -0500, Derek J. Balling wrote: > After much complaining from my users about CVS[1], I'm on the prowl for > a new SCM solution. Anything wrong with simple RCS? -- /*********************************************************************\ ** ** Joe Yao jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao ** \*********************************************************************/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Feb 23 21:44:52 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1O5ipb28985 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 23 Feb 2003 21:44:51 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Burch To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Remote Software Distribution Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 23:43:20 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200302232343.20122.scott.burch@camberwind.com> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hello, I'm wondering what others are doing to distribute software to remote systems. Where I work the development/staging/production servers run Solaris and AIX. I am talking about distributing mainly open source packages that we use to support/manage our environment. In the past 4 years the UNIX environment has grown from supporting internal engineering to a full scale electronic business infrastructure with presentation, application, and database layers (and a complex array of firewalls). NFS and the automounter was used extensively on internal systems to support centralized serving of various applications, etc. In the e-biz environment we minimize services and eliminate the use of nfs/automounter, etc. and only run what is needed to provide various business functions. I am mainly concerned with distribution of software in the e-biz environment. Remote access to these machines is limited mainly to ssh/sftp. Currently we use rsync and ssh to move various things around. The majority of the systems are running various versions of Solaris, so I create Solaris packages for much of the software we use. I haven't started pushing packages around yet. When I create packages I build them such that they are built into self contained directory structures, e.g. OpenSSH is installed by a package by default under /opt/MITSSopenssh I like using the remote system's native package format because it allows easy installation and removal of packages....however this becomes tedious because I will need to work with the packaging systems of multiple platforms. Another alternative would be to use a cross platform package format such as RPM. So it would be nice to build a file distribution system that could handle: 1) Shared (NFS, etc.) and Remote local installations 2) A central package database that can be used to determine versions of all packages installed on all systems 3) A secure distribution method 4) Supports multiple platforms (Solaris, AIX, Linux, HP, etc.) Obviously there are lots of options. A good overview of some of these systems is here: http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~oetiker/sepp/. Many of the distribution systems assume you are using AFS or NFS, which obviously won't work for many of our machines...the only way a shared filesystem would work is if it were something non-networked on the SAN. I am looking forward to hearing what others are doing; I am open to both open source and commercial solutions. Thanks, Scott -- Scott Burch http://www.camberwind.com/ for more contact information From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 24 01:40:17 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1O9eGM00379 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 01:40:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 01:40:15 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Remote Software Distribution Message-ID: <20030224014015.A21468@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <200302232343.20122.scott.burch@camberwind.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <200302232343.20122.scott.burch@camberwind.com>; from scott.burch@camberwind.com on Sun, Feb 23, 2003 at 11:43:20PM -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Feb 23, 2003 at 11:43:20PM -0600, Scott Burch wrote: > Hello, > > I'm wondering what others are doing to distribute software to remote systems. > Where I work the development/staging/production servers run Solaris and AIX. > I am talking about distributing mainly open source packages that we use to > support/manage our environment. >... > I like using the remote system's native package format because it allows easy > installation and removal of packages.. > >... > 4) Supports multiple platforms (Solaris, AIX, Linux, HP, etc.) I dont think you're going to get anything with the last two paragraphs in harmony. However, for solaris, there is pkg-get as an option (ahem) native package format, and secure (supports gpg-signed md5 hashes) If you're open to trusting other peoples' binaries, you even get to skip compiling a bunch of stuff yourself, if you use www.blastwave.org mirrors. (I just updated the binaries for openssl, too. Now sporting v0.9.6i) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 24 05:19:21 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1ODJL222033 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 05:19:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: From: "Andrews, Martin" To: "'Scott Burch'" , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] Remote Software Distribution Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:26:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I am in the process of moving from a mostly home-brew system for building and distributing open source software to openpkg - http://www.openpkg.com . It more-or-less meets all your requirements - though it does not use the native package format (I think that is probably to heavy a constraint). > alternative would be to use a cross platform package format > such as RPM. Indeed - openpkg uses rpm. > So it would be nice to build a file distribution system that > could handle: > > 1) Shared (NFS, etc.) and Remote local installations While not really planned for network installation I found a pretty easy way to do it with their not well documented "rpm --makeproxy" feature. You can build a proxy RPM that is just a bunch of symbolic links - in this case a network mount. > 2) A central package database that can be used to determine > versions of all > packages installed on all systems RPM provides this. > 3) A secure distribution method RPMs can be signed. > 4) Supports multiple platforms (Solaris, AIX, Linux, HP, etc.) Can support most any platform - though AIX and HP are not officially supported now. Another bonus is that development of this project is very active. Martin ---- Martin Andrews martin.andrews@lionbioscience.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 24 07:31:13 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1OFVC423098 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 07:31:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 10:31:04 -0500 From: rudi@bu.edu (Kevin Ruderman) Message-Id: <200302241531.KAA322808@acsn09.bu.edu> To: mandrews@cle.lionbioscience.com, sage-members@usenix.org, scott.burch@camberwind.com Subject: RE: [SAGE] Remote Software Distribution X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >> 4) Supports multiple platforms (Solaris, AIX, Linux, HP, etc.) >Can support most any platform - though AIX and HP are not officially >supported now. IBM has built RPM for AIX and provides many packages that way now. It comes preinstalled on AIX 5 and can be downloaded for AIX 4.3.3. See: http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/aix/products/aixos/linux/ Rudi ------------------------------------------------------------------- Kevin Ruderman Information Technology Boston University From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 24 14:58:28 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1OMwRk28509 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 14:58:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 18:03:02 -0500 From: Jan Schaumann To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Remote Software Distribution Message-ID: <20030224230302.GA28556@netmeister.org> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <200302232343.20122.scott.burch@camberwind.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200302232343.20122.scott.burch@camberwind.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Scott Burch wrote: > I'm wondering what others are doing to distribute software to remote systems. > I am talking about distributing mainly open source packages that we use to > support/manage our environment. While it may not be a 100% fit for your situation, let me suggest the use of NetBSD's Packages Collection nonetheless. This is a source-based package system, which has been ported to Darwin, FreeBSD, Irix, Linux, OpenBSD, and Solaris. Currently, it is not available for AIX, but I'd imagine that it shouldn't be all that difficult to port it there. > So it would be nice to build a file distribution system that could handle: > > 1) Shared (NFS, etc.) and Remote local installations > 2) A central package database that can be used to determine versions of all > packages installed on all systems > 3) A secure distribution method > 4) Supports multiple platforms (Solaris, AIX, Linux, HP, etc.) Several aspects of NetBSD's pkgsrc might make it appealing for you. You can maintain the source-tree in a central location and export it via NFS to the "build-hosts" if you have a multi-architecture environment. You could then build/compile packages on the various hosts from one and the same sources, ensuring that all hosts have the same version of a piece of software etc. If you like, you can build binary packages or export the installed hierarchy via NFS. You can run local security checks on the database of installed systems (automated, of course), and you get a checksum for every packages distribution-file and patches, so you know you're not installing trojaned versions. The NetBSD Packages Collection currently contains >3300 packages, and is constantly updated. There are stable branches and of course the bleeding edge. And help is of course always just an email away. :-) Take a look at the URLs below, it's quite a nice system. I currently use it on NetBSD and Linux and am starting to use it on Irix. -Jan URLs: http://www.netbsd.org/ http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/software/packages.html http://www.netbsd.org/MailingLists/#tech-pkg ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/packages/pkgsrc/README-all.html ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/packages/pkgsrc/Packages.txt -- Probability factor of one to one. We have normality. I repeat, we have normality. Anything you still can't cope with is therefore your own lookout. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 26 20:56:40 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1R4uec25878 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 26 Feb 2003 20:56:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [SAGE] member of more than 15 groups From: Michael Noble To: Sage Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1046321792.4720.50.camel@gandalf.cox.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 Date: 26 Feb 2003 20:56:32 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Is there a way to have people be in more than the 15 group limit? I beleive this more of an NIS problem. I have a mixed environment of Linux and Solaris8. Thanks, Mike -- Michael Noble From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 26 21:09:40 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1R59eG26227 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 26 Feb 2003 21:09:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] member of more than 15 groups From: "Brandon S. Allbery "KF8NH To: Michael Noble Cc: Sage In-Reply-To: <1046321792.4720.50.camel@gandalf.cox.net> References: <1046321792.4720.50.camel@gandalf.cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1046322575.1457.7.camel@rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 Date: 27 Feb 2003 00:09:35 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2003-02-26 at 23:56, Michael Noble wrote: > Is there a way to have people be in more than the 15 group limit? > I beleive this more of an NIS problem. > I have a mixed environment of Linux and Solaris8. Unfortunately, the size of the group vector impacts both kernel and libc, as well as any program which examines the group vector; raising the hard limit effectively requires rebuilding the entire system, which means you lose completely on Solaris and lose on Linux if any closed-source apps that look at the group vector are involved. -- brandon s allbery [openafs/solaris/japh/freebsd] allbery@kf8nh.apk.net system administrator [linux/heimdal/too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering KF8NH carnegie mellon university [better check the oblivious first -ke6sls] From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 05:44:59 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RDixU20669 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 05:44:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [SAGE] Mini-scheduler From: Nicolas Dorfsman To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0.2-5mdk Date: 27 Feb 2003 14:44:50 +0100 Message-Id: <1046353491.3250.70.camel@trantor> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi Gurus, I'm looking for a real process-scheduler. My customer is using cron, but need something a little bit clever, where you could configure chain of process ("script x will run if script y is finished", etc). Of course I know solutions like control-M (from BMC http://www.bmc.com) or $Universe (from Orsyp http://www.orsyp.com). But I just need few functionalities and prefer an OpenSource solution for now. Any help would be appreciated. Nicolas -- ------------------------------ | Nicolas Dorfsman | | mailto:ndo@unikservice.com | | http://www.unikservice.com | ------------------------------ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 07:22:43 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RFMh721822 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 07:22:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mini-scheduler From: Nicolas Dorfsman To: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <1046353491.3250.70.camel@trantor> References: <1046353491.3250.70.camel@trantor> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0.2-5mdk Date: 27 Feb 2003 16:22:38 +0100 Message-Id: <1046359358.3250.148.camel@trantor> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id h1RFMgr21819 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Le jeu 27/02/2003 à 14:44, Nicolas Dorfsman a écrit : > I'm looking for a real process-scheduler. I'm looking for a "Job Scheduler" and certainly not a "process scheduler". Sorry for that, and thanks Rob for your note. Nicolas From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 07:24:48 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RFOmD21973 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 07:24:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:24:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Dallas Wisehaupt X-X-Sender: dallas@jaded.cynicism.com To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mini-scheduler In-Reply-To: <1046353491.3250.70.camel@trantor> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-Id: <20030227162423.002A03B817@jaded.cynicism.com> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Nicolas, You might want to take a look at Maelstrom from Alva Couch. With my memory of the the talk at LISA 2001, it seems like it may be a good match. Dallas On 27 Feb 2003, Nicolas Dorfsman wrote: > > Hi Gurus, > > I'm looking for a real process-scheduler. > > My customer is using cron, but need something a little bit clever, where > you could configure chain of process ("script x will run if script y is > finished", etc). Of course I know solutions like control-M (from BMC > http://www.bmc.com) or $Universe (from Orsyp http://www.orsyp.com). But > I just need few functionalities and prefer an OpenSource solution for > now. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Nicolas > > > -- pub 1024D/695B2F41 2001-05-30 Dallas Wisehaupt (sign) Member: USENIX and SAGE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 10:13:27 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RIDRO24419 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:13:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 13:13:23 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: Sage Subject: Re: [SAGE] member of more than 15 groups Message-ID: <20030227181323.GA23928@snew.com> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , Sage References: <1046321792.4720.50.camel@gandalf.cox.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1046321792.4720.50.camel@gandalf.cox.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Michael Noble (mgnoble@cox.net): > Is there a way to have people be in more than the 15 group limit? Sure, but it involves recompiling. > I believe this more of an NIS problem. Well, NIS is a problem but no, it's a libc problem. > I have a mixed environment of Linux and Solaris8. Perhaps if you describe the problem you're trying to solve, rather than asking how to work around limits in the solution you've chosen, we might get some interesting ideas out there. I too have run into this. I sort miss the extra permissions options of VMS that I have to work around in Unix. ACL's are usually impossible to manage, groups are kind of a big hammer way of handling it. What options SHOULD there be? What would folks like to see? From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 10:52:16 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RIqGH25296 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:52:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 13:52:13 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Remote Software Distribution Message-ID: <20030227185213.GB23928@snew.com> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <200302241531.KAA322808@acsn09.bu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200302241531.KAA322808@acsn09.bu.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk RE: RPM. I like native package management. but most aren't really worth it ("back out this package to previous", etc). I'll toss them when other issue, like yours become more pressing. Just like I compile sendmail and bind from source cause I don't care if AIX's sendmail is better/worse than Solaris' is b/w than HPs. I do care that I am running one version on all machines and that my m4 files work across them all. RPM was the same. I compiled RPM to use on SunOS 4 back in the day to replace, er, NOTHING. If you don't get hyper-dependant, it's great. I advocated it for BSDi (v2.1 days), but the "R" put off many people, mostly for not good reason. Most of the bad taste was from Redhat distro decisions - eg. remove BASH to make your own, perhaps newer bash, without RPM'ing it and you can't ever add redhat rpm's again cause it barfs: "No bash!". BIND doesn't need bash, but the dependancy tree was broken. --nodep was a dangerous workaround (BIND 9 with DNS SEC *does* want SSL 0.9.7x). I like SRPM's even better. http://www.infrastructures.org/ is a site based on an interesting Usenix or LISA paper. This isn't a new problem, we've fought it since I worked on Wall St in the early 90s. Before then even, when "Large installation" of unix meant 40 machines. Other issues you might run into are that "user A" should be using Version 1.2 of PACKAGE while "user B" is testing out Version 1.3. When they start "PACKAGE" it should find the right one for them. We had monster Motif Menu generating programs on trading floors for this and really ugly ways to deal with it. One group (not mine) came up with /opt/$PACKAGE/$Platform/$VERSION/bin/ as a hierarchy. Ever fail to find the man page for xterm? OH, it's in /opt/X11R6/Sun4m/1.3.2/man/man1/xterm.1 (1.3.2 was an internal versioning) Schemes for job security. And paths with /opt/GNU-findutils/sun4m/1.0.2/bin/ tend to run out of shell buffer quickly. We found that "stow" provided us with a way to workaround this egregiousness. But RPM is a better answer for cross-platform package management. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 12:25:56 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RKPu826702 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 12:25:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [SAGE] Fujitsu Solaris systems From: Mark McCullough To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-9M0lCCfXuch3Ux99kcM4" Organization: Message-Id: <1046377551.949.1.camel@starfury> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 Date: 27 Feb 2003 14:25:51 -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --=-9M0lCCfXuch3Ux99kcM4 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone have any experience using Fujitsu hardware for Solaris? Is there anything that I would need to be aware of before evaluating it?=20 I'm nervous about their claim of complete compatability despite not using the same hardware, is it really true? --=20 mmccul@earthlink.net Mark McCullough "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that=20 we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only=20 unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American=20 public." (Theodore Roosevelt, 1918) --=-9M0lCCfXuch3Ux99kcM4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQA+XnRPLt0nxEAuAy8RAuWTAJ93bjAobrdEKKx6cxdMOo+hafCwhQCgn9vD SdJnA++v2x9UV/ka9vq2Wzw= =TJ8j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-9M0lCCfXuch3Ux99kcM4-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 12:27:06 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RKR6726845 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 12:27:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 12:26:39 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Nicolas Dorfsman cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mini-scheduler Message-ID: <15960000.1046377599@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <1046353491.3250.70.camel@trantor> References: <1046353491.3250.70.camel@trantor> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > My customer is using cron, but need something a little bit clever, where > you could configure chain of process ("script x will run if script y is > finished", etc). Well, there's always cron plus the ';' and '&&' and '||' operators of the shell. This has got me pretty much everything I wanted, over the years, with no additional software. YMMV. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 12:53:18 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RKrIv27560 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 12:53:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:53:13 -0500 From: Joseph S D Yao To: Mark McCullough Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Fujitsu Solaris systems Message-ID: <20030227155313.I10406@gwyn.tux.org> Mail-Followup-To: Mark McCullough , sage-members@usenix.org References: <1046377551.949.1.camel@starfury> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <1046377551.949.1.camel@starfury>; from mmccul@earthlink.net on Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 02:25:51PM -0600 X-Accepted-File-Formats: ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 02:25:51PM -0600, Mark McCullough wrote: > Does anyone have any experience using Fujitsu hardware for Solaris? Is > there anything that I would need to be aware of before evaluating it? > I'm nervous about their claim of complete compatability despite not > using the same hardware, is it really true? The part of WorldCom that used to be ANS' firewall group used these almost exclusively, and we've seen no problems with the ones they delivered for our use. I believe that Fujitsu has an agreement with Sun to make clones that are as close as people can make. -- /*********************************************************************\ ** ** Joe Yao jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao ** \*********************************************************************/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 13:16:28 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RLGSc28032 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 13:16:28 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [161.231.1.22] From: "Scott Frost" To: mmccul@earthlink.net, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Fujitsu Solaris systems Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:16:21 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Feb 2003 21:16:22.0103 (UTC) FILETIME=[7A348E70:01C2DEA5] X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Mark, I did an indepth test of Fujitsu hardware and did find a number of differences. Their hardware is only compatible with Solaris if you ge tthe distribution of Solaris from them. They write custom hooks for their firmware that is based on X number of release of Solaris. Thus, if you want the latest kernel rev you install their base version and then patch up from their site. U cannot get direct patch/OS support from Sun because of this. Also, They have siginifcant manpower issues when it comes to support. As of 6-8 months ago they only had 5 engineers covering the entire east coast. We did some tests to gauge response and were disappointed with the wait time, etc. Overall, I'd trust Fujitsu for a Development server but not for a production environment. Thanks, Scott Frost >From: Mark McCullough >To: sage-members@usenix.org >Subject: [SAGE] Fujitsu Solaris systems >Date: 27 Feb 2003 14:25:51 -0600 > >Does anyone have any experience using Fujitsu hardware for Solaris? Is >there anything that I would need to be aware of before evaluating it? >I'm nervous about their claim of complete compatability despite not >using the same hardware, is it really true? > >-- >mmccul@earthlink.net Mark McCullough >"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that >we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only >unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American >public." (Theodore Roosevelt, 1918) ><< signature.asc >> _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 13:27:56 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RLRus28407 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 13:27:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:27:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200302272127.h1RLRXe40808@gc0.generalconcepts.com> From: John Sellens To: ndo@unikservice.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mini-scheduler X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk | > My customer is using cron, but need something a little bit clever, where | > you could configure chain of process ("script x will run if script y is | > finished", etc). | | Well, there's always cron plus the ';' and '&&' and '||' operators of the | shell. This has got me pretty much everything I wanted, over the years, | with no additional software. YMMV. UWaterloo uses (for years now) a home-grown batch system to run jobs - it's very handy for serializing and/or load-limiting housekeeping jobs (a variant is/used to be available from ai.toronto.edu). I've been using NQS (http://www.gnu.org/directory/sysadmin/remote/genericNQS.html) and PBS (http://www.openpbs.org/) also looks like it would do the trick. See also the summary at http://www.cmpharm.ucsf.edu/~srp/batch/systems.html (which is a few years old now). These systems aren't full-blown job schedulers, but if your needs aren't too complicated, you can get a lot of mileage out of the obvious cover shell scripts like this: job1 || exit 1 job2 || exit 1 Alternatively, one job could submit another, or you could use "flag files" to indicate success/failure. I've never really had to bite this bullet - I've never had to deal with arbitrary tree structures of job dependencies. Your mileage may vary. Hope this helps. John jsellens@generalconcepts.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 13:48:53 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RLmrP28834 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 13:48:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: goodall.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:48:45 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: Mark McCullough cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Fujitsu Solaris systems In-Reply-To: <20030227155313.I10406@gwyn.tux.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.5 required=5.1 tests=CARRIAGE_RETURNS,IN_REP_TO,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT_PINE,X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.43 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 02:25:51PM -0600, Mark McCullough wrote: > Does anyone have any experience using Fujitsu hardware for Solaris? Is > there anything that I would need to be aware of before evaluating it? > I'm nervous about their claim of complete compatability despite not > using the same hardware, is it really true? remember that SPARCinternational is a consortium. as long as you build to spec, it's compatible. (also remember that fujitsu and Sun have a very long relationship going back to early CPUs (remember the HyperSparc? (among others)). I believe that e*trade makes extensive use of Fujitsu sparc devices. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 14:03:53 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RM3ra29188 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:03:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200302272203.QAA17316@yfandes.cs.wisc.edu> To: John Sellens cc: ndo@unikservice.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mini-scheduler In-Reply-To: Message from John Sellens of "Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:27:33 EST." <200302272127.h1RLRXe40808@gc0.generalconcepts.com> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:03:46 -0600 From: David Parter X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk another option is the condor system (http://www.cs.wisc.edu/condor/) while condor does a whole bunch more than what you want, some of it may work for you. my condor expert said: > Yes, at a high level DAGMan does exactly that. > > Something else of interest is Doug Thain's Fault Tolerant Shell: > http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~thain/research/ftsh/ > > (ftsh is really probably one of the coolest things ever to come out of > Condor...) hope this helps, --david From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 14:05:19 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RM5Jn29328 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:05:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 17:05:15 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mini-scheduler Message-ID: <20030227220515.GA27301@snew.com> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <1046353491.3250.70.camel@trantor> <15960000.1046377599@jxh.mirapoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15960000.1046377599@jxh.mirapoint.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Jim Hickstein (jxh@jxh.com): > >My customer is using cron, but need something a little bit clever, where > >you could configure chain of process ("script x will run if script y is > >finished", etc). > > Well, there's always cron plus the ';' and '&&' and '||' operators of the > shell. This has got me pretty much everything I wanted, over the years, > with no additional software. YMMV. batch used to work, iirc. && and such can do simple things. There are more complex things to handle. A long previous company had the never ending project of a scheduler (eventually bought by OpenVision thence Veritas). The notion was "run these 40 jobs on THOSE 40 machines, when they are all done, run these 12 jobs on whichever of those 4 machines is available. When that whole kaboodle is done, do this, do that. Oh, here's a bunch of jobs to run on any Sun4m machine at your leisure. And some Alpha jobs here. These can run on any test env machines. And THESE jobs must be run before 5AM. Go. I always felt it could take the LSAT. (Diane won't sit next to bob, but her ex-husband want lasagna. Kate is a vegetarian but needs to sit at the end of the table but is alergic to wool. Larry is wearing wool and must be within 3 seats of a train leaving dayton at 50MPH...) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 15:35:13 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RNZDo00796 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:35:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:35:10 -0800 From: Benjamin Feen To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Reply-To: Benjy Feen Mail-Followup-To: Benjamin Feen , sage-members@usenix.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk It's been a while since I've asked a random question on sage-members, so here goes: What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? Interpret the question any way you want. -- Benjamin Feen benjamin(AT)feen.com http://www.monkeybagel.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 15:49:29 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RNnSa01177 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:49:28 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Benjy Feen Cc: sage-members@usenix.org From: Ted Cabeen Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:49:26 -0800 Message-Id: <20030227234926.81006195@gray.impulse.net> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In message <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org>, Benjamin Feen writes: >It's been a while since I've asked a random question on sage-members, so >here goes: > >What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? First thing that comes to mine is screen. I have screen setup to have a master screen session that runs at all times. Each of my xterms is just a window onto that master collection of screens. This means that I can login from home over ssh and resume working in any or all of the terminals that I have on my desk at work without re-logging into any server or losing the output of programs that I ran when at work. I can also rejigger the collection of terminals I have available at any time quickly without losing where I was on the old terminal. I also have zsh and screen setup so that the zsh prompt control of the xterm title-bar works and the screen number and name are displayed in the title bar if I'm working in a screen session. It's very handy. - -- Ted Cabeen http://www.pobox.com/~secabeen ted@impulse.net Check Website or Keyserver for PGP/GPG Key BA0349D2 secabeen@pobox.com "I have taken all knowledge to be my province." -F. Bacon secabeen@cabeen.org "Human kind cannot bear very much reality."-T.S.Eliot cabeen@netcom.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) Comment: Exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 iD8DBQE+XqQGoayJfLoDSdIRAuW5AKC0I0LFt5DqzpGog2QHRndR6mlFNQCgtdOI Y/PT2+C5TRLt5yrBB4VXtoA= =OwL5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 15:52:45 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RNqjd01429 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:52:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E5EA4BA.6090906@snert.com> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 00:52:26 +0100 From: Anthony Howe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030220 X-Accept-Language: en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Benjamin Feen wrote: > It's been a while since I've asked a random question on sage-members, so > here goes: > > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? TextPad for Windows gives me all the common edit tools I could need in one program. One of the best shareware packages I ever paid for. SecureCRT & SecureFX for SSH and SFTP. Mozilla (formly Netscape), Opera too. After that I dive into more obsurce things like Cygwin Unix-like environment for Windows. Great for compling & testing, apparently can do X windows client/server roles though I haven't tried that yet. C/Net Technical News. Great for keeping up to date when you live far away from the action. > Interpret the question any way you want. Don't go there. There be dragons... -- Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus "Will the real email please stand up..." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 15:53:25 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RNrPq01639 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:53:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:53:18 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Benjy Feen cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <47470000.1046389998@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? ssh-agent(1). Not to mention just ssh(1). From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 15:57:26 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RNvQH01953 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:57:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15966.42466.914767.361053@azazel.infersys.com> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:57:22 -0800 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-Reply-To: <20030227234926.81006195@gray.impulse.net> References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <47470000.1046389998@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030227234926.81006195@gray.impulse.net> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 12) "Portable Code" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smith X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk To combine two that folks just mentioned, ssh-agent plus screen equals lots of cool. Add Emacs, and I can do all kinds of things that make my colleages go "whoah". The only drawback is that it's hard for them to follow what I'm doing, when I'm flipping between screen sessions, each of which is an Emacs process on a different box... :^) -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 15:57:27 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1RNvRq01970 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:57:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:57:24 -0800 From: "Mark C. Langston" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030227155724.E33844@bitshift.org> References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org>; from benjy@feen.com on Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 03:35:10PM -0800 X-Uptime: 3:56PM up 70 days, 1:25, 10 users, load averages: 0.22, 0.23, 0.20 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 03:35:10PM -0800, Benjamin Feen wrote: > > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? The world's largest radio telescope. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 16:07:35 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S07Z102575 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:07:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:07:06 -0800 From: Mark Allen To: Benjamin Feen Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030227160706.A17251@sephiroth.byte-me.org> References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org>; from benjy@feen.com on Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 03:35:10PM -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 03:35:10PM -0800, Benjamin Feen wrote: > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? Perl+CPAN Mark --=20 Mark Allen -- mallen@byte-me.org -- http://www.byte-me.org/~mallen/ PGP: 0x5CDC2161 Mark Allen (Personal Key) =20 --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE+XqgqWVr5gFzcIWERAt/DAKCh3sYXXfuBqld7M7nZr92ydR2+sgCfWNyV FIkgO4hTakLFVouBMimOczg= =pOE4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 16:11:45 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S0Bi502867 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:11:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E5EA92E.7070503@anim.dreamworks.com> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:11:26 -0800 From: Skottie Miller Organization: Dreamworks Feature Animation User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josh Smith CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <47470000.1046389998@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030227234926.81006195@gray.impulse.net> <15966.42466.914767.361053@azazel.infersys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk All of these things, from an 802.11 wireless iPaq, while sitting in meetings. if it weren't for wireless, I'd never get work done ;-) -skottie Josh Smith wrote: > To combine two that folks just mentioned, ssh-agent plus screen equals > lots of cool. Add Emacs, and I can do all kinds of things that make my > colleages go "whoah". The only drawback is that it's hard for them to > follow what I'm doing, when I'm flipping between screen sessions, each of > which is an Emacs process on a different box... :^) > > -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) > -- Scott Miller | Animation Technology work: skottie@dreamworks.com | Dreamworks Feature Animation life: skottie@pobox.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 16:14:10 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S0E9O03116 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:14:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:14:07 -0800 From: "Paul M. Moriarty" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030228001407.GG24120@igtc.igtc.com> References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? > the coffee beans in the freezer From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 16:31:58 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S0Vwk03533 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:31:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:31:54 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Benjamin Feen cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Message-ID: <20030227192932.I63735-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Benjamin Feen wrote: > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? Although I'll sound like an apple switch ad, I still can't get over how all out cool OSX is! The combo of a tibook (with wireless, of course), OSX, and an iPod for backup and file storage just rocks my world [0] cheers! [0] ...and yes, you can all consider this publically eating my words, given some of my past complains about one button mice, and freakish hardware... ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 16:39:38 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S0dcG03834 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:39:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:39:35 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Cat Okita cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <53700000.1046392775@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <20030227192932.I63735-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> References: <20030227192932.I63735-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > [0] ...and yes, you can all consider this publically eating my words, > given some of my past complains about one button mice, and freakish > hardware... The joke's on them. I have a 3-button (external USB) mouse on my Tibook. :-) XDarwin likes it. 4 xterms and an Airport card and away I go. Oh, and Virtual PC 6, which upgrade I just bought this morning. I'm running MS Project under Win2k, and listening to iTunes. (vmware on actual x86 is much faster, of course, but this is acceptable, to me.) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 16:42:56 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S0guf04100 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:42:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:42:52 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Jim Hickstein cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-Reply-To: <53700000.1046392775@jxh.mirapoint.com> Message-ID: <20030227194112.I63735-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Jim Hickstein wrote: > > [0] ...and yes, you can all consider this publically eating my words, > > given some of my past complains about one button mice, and freakish > > hardware... > > The joke's on them. I have a 3-button (external USB) mouse on my Tibook. > :-) XDarwin likes it. 4 xterms and an Airport card and away I go. *grin* It's just hard to curl up on the couch with a mouse (I mean there's all the squeeking, and the cats chase it around... *grin*). When I need to use a mouse, I actually hook up a trackball - although I'm still sorting out swapping the button mappings around (I use a mouse left-handed, but my touchpad right handed... but like them to be configured in the same way, more-or-less) > Oh, and Virtual PC 6, which upgrade I just bought this morning. I'm > running MS Project under Win2k, and listening to iTunes. (vmware on actual > x86 is much faster, of course, but this is acceptable, to me.) I use it to run visio with good results ;> cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 16:53:21 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S0rL204428 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:53:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:53:13 -0500 From: Jenn Sturm Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-reply-to: <20030227192932.I63735-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> To: sage-members@usenix.org Message-id: <03DF4255-4AB7-11D7-8B23-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Ditto on everything below. On Thursday, February 27, 2003, at 07:31 PM, Cat Okita wrote: > On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Benjamin Feen wrote: >> What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? > > Although I'll sound like an apple switch ad, I still can't get over how > all out cool OSX is! The combo of a tibook (with wireless, of course), > OSX, and an iPod for backup and file storage just rocks my world [0] > > cheers! > > [0] ...and yes, you can all consider this publically eating my words, > given some of my past complains about one button mice, and freakish > hardware... > ======================================================================= > === > "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and > profound > desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to > avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right > now." > > ___________ Jennifer Sturm System Administrator and Research Support Specialist Chemistry Department Hamilton College 198 College Hill Road Clinton, NY 13323 tel: 315-859-4745 fax: 315-859-4744 jsturm@hamilton.edu http://www.chem.hamilton.edu/ http://mars.chem.hamilton.edu/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 16:57:09 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S0v9504675 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:57:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:56:20 -0800 From: "Mark C. Langston" To: iagemembers@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030227165620.F33844@bitshift.org> References: <53700000.1046392775@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030227194112.I63735-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030227194112.I63735-100000@iguana.reptiles.org>; from cat@reptiles.org on Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 07:42:52PM -0500 X-Uptime: 4:55PM up 70 days, 2:24, 10 users, load averages: 0.28, 0.25, 0.19 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 07:42:52PM -0500, Cat Okita wrote: > > I use it to run visio with good results ;> Heathen! Hie thee to the included OmniGraffle! -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark@bitshift.org mark@seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 17:00:18 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S10Ht04964 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 17:00:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 17:00:15 -0800 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) From: Tony Del Porto To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thursday, Feb 27, 2003, at 15:35 US/Pacific, Benjamin Feen wrote: > It's been a while since I've asked a random question on sage-members, > so > here goes: > > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? ditto ditto ditto OSX on a PowerBook Ti. I seldom turn it off as it travels between work and home networks so easily and does everything I need it to do. I can count the number of times it has crashed in the 15 months I've owned it on one hand. I'm using a logitech TrackMan Wheel, the thing with a thumb ball. No RSI here. Tony Del Porto SysAdmin USENIX Association www.usenix.org www.sage.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 17:00:49 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S10mj05148 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 17:00:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 20:00:40 -0500 From: Josh Lothian To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030227200040.B4185@icehouse.cs.utk.edu> References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org>; from benjy@feen.com on Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 03:35:10PM -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 03:35:10PM -0800, Benjamin Feen wrote: > It's been a while since I've asked a random question on sage-members, so > here goes: > > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? > > Interpret the question any way you want. Well, to take a different slant on this... I dread going to work any day when I don't have a large glob of putty lying around. Sometimes you just need to take a break and beat on some Thinking Putty. Likewise, sometimes you just have to turn away from the computer and proceed to juggle. -josh -- Josh Lothian System Administrator lothian@cs.utk.edu Computer Science Dept. 865.974.3840 U. of Tennessee, Knoxville From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 17:28:01 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S1S1W05608 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 17:28:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15966.47902.862775.7045@azazel.infersys.com> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 17:27:58 -0800 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-Reply-To: <20030227165620.F33844@bitshift.org> References: <53700000.1046392775@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030227194112.I63735-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <20030227165620.F33844@bitshift.org> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 12) "Portable Code" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smith X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk CO == Cat Okita MCL == Mark C Langston CO> I use it to run visio with good results ;> MCL> Heathen! Hie thee to the included OmniGraffle! Speaking of which, is there a similar tool for Linux, one that's anywhere near as good as either of the two aforementioned? Back on the topic of cool things, especially toys: I have a gizmo toy called the Ring of Pain (not its real name), which is very cool, and sort of hard to describe. It's a metal hoop, with these five rings around it, sort of like metal washers with a colored plastic shell. You get the rings spinning -- the most effective way is by whacking them obliquely with your palm, but if you don't do it *just right* (and you never do), it hurts (thus the name) -- and then turn the hoop, and some combination of the forces of (a) the spinning rings, (b) the turning hoop, and (c) gravity, conspire to cause the rings to remain more or less in a fixed position along the vertical leading edge of the hoop. If you keep turning the hoop, the little rings will spin indefinitely. You can then do tricks with the hoop, like stop its motion and spin it the other direction (while the rings drop to the bottom and up the other side) before the rings stop spinning, or toss it from hand to hand, or turn it around so it's spinning the opposite direction relative to you (but the same direction relative to the rings), or whatever other creative tricks you come up with . The main drawback is that it makes a lot of noise (a constant metal-on-metal "shhhing", somewhat like a sword being drawn), but if you want to annoy your co-workers, this could even be a feature. Oh, it's also somewhat hard to find -- a science museum gift shop may be your best bet. If I'm ambitious or bored later tonight, maybe I'll take some pictures or video to post. Anyway, I don't use it every day, but it's on my shelf next to my Power Putty. I think I'll go play with it right now. -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 17:35:28 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S1ZSN05911 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 17:35:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 17:34:47 -0800 From: Christopher Malek To: Josh Smith Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030227173447.I9240@dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Christopher Malek , Josh Smith , sage-members@usenix.org References: <53700000.1046392775@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030227194112.I63735-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <20030227165620.F33844@bitshift.org> <15966.47902.862775.7045@azazel.infersys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15966.47902.862775.7045@azazel.infersys.com>; from irilyth@infersys.com on Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 05:27:58PM -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk JS: Josh Smith JS> Speaking of which, is there a similar tool for Linux, one that's anywhere JS> near as good as either of the two aforementioned? There's dia, which is ok. -- cmalek@caltech.edu Nosce Teipsum Office: (626) 395-2593 Fax: (626) 792-4257 Mail Stop: 014-81 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 17:40:20 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S1eKI06210 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 17:40:20 -0800 (PST) To: Josh Smith , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? References: <53700000.1046392775@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030227194112.I63735-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <20030227165620.F33844@bitshift.org> <15966.47902.862775.7045@azazel.infersys.com> <20030227173447.I9240@dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu> From: Darrell Fuhriman Date: 27 Feb 2003 17:40:55 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20030227173447.I9240@dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu> Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Honest Recruiter) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Christopher Malek writes: > There's dia, which is ok. Dia is OK if you've never used anything that functioned properly. Kivio is much better, although only sort of open. http://www.thekompany.com/projects/kivio/ Neither of them really compare to the existing commercial packages, though. Darrell From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 17:41:14 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S1fEW06365 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 17:41:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 20:41:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200302280141.h1S1f5345794@gc0.generalconcepts.com> From: John Sellens To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk x2x and x2vnc - I sit at my FreeBSD box, and slide my mouse (and keyboard) off to one side onto the Windows screen there, and then slide it off the other side to the Sun box over there. John http://gatekeeper.dec.com/pub/DEC/SRC/x2x/ http://www.hubbe.net/~hubbe/x2vnc.html And synergy appears similar: http://synergy2.sourceforge.net/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 17:52:35 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S1qZn06793 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 17:52:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986104713181@mail-cpk.answerfinancial.com> From: Todd Williams To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] SAS 70 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 17:52:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In due diligence activities, a "SAS 70 audit" is often requested, as a certification that your organization follows "best practices" for security, etc. But I recently heard someone say that SAS 70 has fallen out of favor, since "they have changed it, and it no longer includes a lot of the I.T. stuff." Can anyone explain that comment? (feel free to answer the question with a URL if appropriate) -Todd Williams P.S. I was thinking about saying that my "coolest thing" was Pivot Tables in Excel, but I try not to publicly praise anything associated with Redmond. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 18:01:07 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S217X07143 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 18:01:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:00:50 -0500 From: Scott Orr Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? To: sage-members@usenix.org Message-id: <3E5EC2D2.FA669F5@cs.iupui.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? Probably the bodum french coffee press my boss bought me for christmas last year. Wait... maybe that is the hottest thing I use... Scott -- Scott Orr sorr@cs.iupui.edu Dept of Comp & Info Science, IUPUI Phone: (317) 274-9734 723 W. Michigan St Fax: (317) 274-9742 Indianapolis, IN 46202-5132 http://www.cs.iupui.edu From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 18:21:08 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S2L8k07539 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 18:21:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:21:04 -0500 (EST) From: Phillip Smith To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Message-ID: References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Benjamin Feen wrote: > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? > Define work.. for me there is work work, and then "all the other computer projects going on after work" work. For the former, it would have to be the SCS1620 terminal servers, and Lights Out Management on the Netra T1s. LOM is cool. For the latter, my co-located server at the former ISP I used to work for, where I have free access to a multi-homed, 155Mbit ATM network for hosting personal and open source/free software projects. Ubber amounts of free bandwidth is cool too. -phillip (who hosts irc.sage-members.org and other stuff) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 18:28:36 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S2SaL07839 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 18:28:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1046399333.3e5ec96538e2f@mailhost.yourservice.com> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 18:28:53 -0800 From: {Darkavich} To: Benjy Feen Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Benjamin Feen : > It's been a while since I've asked a random question on sage-members, so > here goes: > > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? Wow, look at all those responses!!!! My coolest thing is my SunRay... I love being able to go anywhere on my network, sit down and plug my smart card in and my MP3 music transfers to that station :-) --------------------------------------------------------- Steve Misrack (858) 627-9259 (voice) @ Your Service PO BOX 420015 steve@YourService.COM San Diego, CA 92142-0015 Never confuse having a career with having a Life -- Eddie Bauer --------------------------------------------------------- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 19:08:12 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S38C308383 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:08:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? From: Stephen L Johnson To: Sage Mailing List In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1046401584.1879.37.camel@rodan.monsters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 Date: 27 Feb 2003 21:06:24 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Depends. Are you talking about this week or last week. :) Lately it's been my trying to get Linux with work suspend/resume on my my Vaio R505 laptop and trying out the Coda file system (which is really cool). My current coolest thing is Sauron. It's Free DNS/DHCP Manangement Package. I've been looking for this package for over 2 years. It has a web based front end and a database for a back-end and it's written in Perl. It still has a few rough spots, and it doesn't fully support all of BIND v9. But it doesn't every I need, and I'm moving our shop over to using Sauron. Almost forget the URL: http://sauron.jyu.fi/ On Thu, 2003-02-27 at 17:35, Benjamin Feen wrote: > It's been a while since I've asked a random question on sage-members, so > here goes: > > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? > > Interpret the question any way you want. > > -- > Benjamin Feen > benjamin(AT)feen.com > http://www.monkeybagel.com -- Stephen L Johnson From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 19:09:33 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S39W508580 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:09:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E5ED2EC.2090409@computer.org> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 22:09:32 -0500 From: Michael Gorski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: e60dab0b445cd1a99649176a89d694c0f43c108795ac4507450642b836e5292dd01cf376a4a7bafa350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Benjamin Feen wrote: > > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? -- BBEdit - text editing doesn't get much better than this -- Firewire - I can plug in extra/spare drives to any machine for quick repairs -- DVD players in every machine with minimum 19" displays - for watching movies when doing off-hours work -- Office closes and buys tickets whenever a LOTR or Star Wars film is released -Mike From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 19:31:23 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S3VNZ08969 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:31:23 -0800 (PST) To: Ted Cabeen Cc: Benjy Feen , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <20030227234926.81006195@gray.impulse.net> From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: 27 Feb 2003 19:31:11 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20030227234926.81006195@gray.impulse.net> Message-ID: <8665r5axog.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Ted" == Ted Cabeen writes: Ted> First thing that comes to mine is screen. Yes! One of my favorite commands is ssh -t some.host screen -DR and of course, once in there, "screen emacs" once. I boot emacs about once a month. :) -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 20:04:46 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S44kx09400 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 20:04:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 20:04:42 -0800 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030228040442.GA29909@snew.com> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <20030227192932.I63735-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030227192932.I63735-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I found a 3 button ADB mouse in 1991 or so and my life got good. Then trackballs. Then I found NeXTstep (marketers could use it!), but my friends mocked me for carrying it into meetings and dragging a cable, so i'll agree that wireless unix rocks (like my Zaurus :) Quoting Cat Okita (cat@reptiles.org): > On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Benjamin Feen wrote: > > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? > > Although I'll sound like an apple switch ad, I still can't get over how > all out cool OSX is! The combo of a tibook (with wireless, of course), > OSX, and an iPod for backup and file storage just rocks my world [0] > > cheers! > > [0] ...and yes, you can all consider this publically eating my words, > given some of my past complains about one button mice, and freakish > hardware... From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 20:13:13 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S4DD009718 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 20:13:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? From: Stephen L Johnson To: Chuck Yerkes Cc: Sage Mailing List In-Reply-To: <20030228040442.GA29909@snew.com> References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <20030227192932.I63735-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <20030228040442.GA29909@snew.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1046405503.1879.78.camel@rodan.monsters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 Date: 27 Feb 2003 22:11:43 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2003-02-27 at 22:04, Chuck Yerkes wrote: snip >Then I found NeXTstep (marketers could use it!), but my friends > mocked me for carrying it into meetings and dragging a cable, so > i'll agree that wireless unix rocks (like my Zaurus :) Ah, those 5x00's are old news. Now that new Zaurus C700 is really cool. I want one of those babies. (/me wiping drool from chin...) -- Stephen L Johnson From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 20:41:00 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S4f0710150 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 20:41:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 23:41:01 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Hoskins To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The fact that I use no MS products in my daily work. A Linux laptop and desktop system. Lots of Solaris, Sequent and Linux systems. There are a very few Win servers for apps. But Open Office and Star Office are also everywhere replacing the expensive alternatives. http://www.openoffice.org The laptop is also wireless 802-11b. This is the one thing that allows me to be productive in the excessive meetings. Ximian Evolution for email, calendar, task list and contacts and no viruses. http://www.ximian.com For those who chose to or must use MS products, I can recommend the freeware ssh-capable telnet client PuTTY. Excellent emulation and stability (check legal encryption warning at the top of the page). http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/download.html DSL, ssh and console servers allow me and my staff to manage any data center system from our robes and slippers if the need materializes. The coolest thing by far is working with some of the best people who only want to do it right and learn new things and put them to work. Mike -- Mike Hoskins/Sys Mgmt Supv < Burlington Coat Factory voice 609/387-7800 x2554 Systems Management fax 609/387-2764 1830 North Rt #130 mike.hoskins@coat.com Burlington, NJ 08016 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 27 22:10:49 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1S6Amc11022 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 22:10:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E5EFD5E.6000309@acm.org> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 01:10:38 -0500 From: "Stephen P. Schaefer" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benjy Feen CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.63.3.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Leo - Literate Editing with Outlines. See http://personalpages.tds.net/~edream/front.html. This tool lets you expose the multiple layers of structure in whatever you're dealing with, whether it's a program, a project plan, or your autobiography. ~ - Stephen P. Schaefer ~ sschaefer@acm.org Benjamin Feen wrote: | It's been a while since I've asked a random question on sage-members, so | here goes: | | What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? | | Interpret the question any way you want. | | -- | Benjamin Feen | benjamin(AT)feen.com | http://www.monkeybagel.com | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE+Xv1eV//0pa9oOLcRArElAJ9QMpbx83wbfDxeFndCr8THteolQgCgjdAO TFk7z9+iHPUkuKVCd5w8uY8= =9XzK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 02:10:03 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SAA3912712 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 02:10:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 01:57:20 -0800 To: John Sellens Cc: ndo@unikservice.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mini-scheduler Message-ID: <20030228095720.GA2085@mars.starshine.org> References: <200302272127.h1RLRXe40808@gc0.generalconcepts.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200302272127.h1RLRXe40808@gc0.generalconcepts.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 04:27:33PM -0500, John Sellens wrote: ... > These systems aren't full-blown job schedulers, but if your needs > aren't too complicated, you can get a lot of mileage out of the > obvious cover shell scripts like this: > job1 || exit 1 > job2 || exit 1 > Alternatively, one job could submit another, or you could use "flag > files" to indicate success/failure. > I've never really had to bite this bullet - I've never had to deal > with arbitrary tree structures of job dependencies. Your mileage > may vary. > John make is pefect for handling arbitrarily complex dependencies -- with the flag files acting as its dependency markers. I normally don't have complex scheduling needs, but it would he hard to sell me a complex package vs. the batch/shell/make and cron/at toolkit. I'd be worried that I'd spend more time learning the (probably proprietary) package than actually solving the problem at hand. (I also once read about someone who hacked together a set of lpd virtual print queues and filters to implement their own network job dispatch and scheduler, BTW. Sounds like a risky hack given the number of security problems I've seen with old versions of lpd; execute arbitrary jobs through it seems radically unwise, but some of the functionality overlap does make sense). If I had a GUI-centric user community that needed to control and submit their own jobs ... I might look at a commercial package with a good interface. -- Jim Dennis From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 04:13:03 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SCD3d04257 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 04:13:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:12:55 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Rinehart To: Josh Smith Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? (OT) In-Reply-To: <15966.47902.862775.7045@azazel.infersys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Oh, it's also somewhat hard to find -- a science museum gift shop may be > your best bet. If I'm ambitious or bored later tonight, maybe I'll take > some pictures or video to post. For more information than you probably wanted to know about this toy, known as the Jitter Ring (aka Chatter Ring, Gyro Ring), swing by: http://jittermax.com/ -- Daniel R. [http://www.neophi.com/] From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 06:23:04 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SEN4f05299 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 06:23:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:24:16 -0600 From: Pete Ehlke To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030228142416.GA81054@rfc822.net> References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 03:35:10PM -0800, Benjamin Feen wrote: > It's been a while since I've asked a random question on sage-members, so > here goes: > > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? > > Interpret the question any way you want. > This replacement for echo(1): bastet[~]$ cowsay sshd started ______________ < sshd started > -------------- \ ^__^ \ (oo)\_______ (__)\ )\/\ ||----w | || || bastet[~]$ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 06:25:56 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SEPud05533 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 06:25:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:25:53 -0500 From: Tom Limoncelli To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows Message-ID: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I have a *lot* of files (over a gig in thousands of small files) from a UNIX system (FreeBSD 4.x) to a Windows XP system. It takes forever. The obvious thing is to just access them over the network, however due to real-time requirements we need to get them onto a local NTFS drive. Since the files are accessible on the UNIX server via Samba, we try a drag and drop of the directory. It takes forever and if it fails it is difficult to restart where things left off. We have Cygwin on the Windows system and use: rsync -av -e ssh unixserver:/foo/bar . This takes 6-7 hours! Cygwin is just too slow. (Monitoring the system shows that ssh is using all the CPU time). It does have the benefit that if it bombs, we can restart it and it doesn't re-copy anything. The incremental updates also means that if we make a change on the UNIX side, another push just copies the changes. So, it's a perfect solution feature-wise, it just is too darn slow. (Yes, we have 100M ethernet full duplex for the entire path (1 router hop). No, gig-E isn't an option). I'd love to hear from other people that have solved this problem. (Oh, non-free solutions are fine. We have a budget.) --tal -- Tom Limoncelli -- tal@whatexit.org http://whatexit.org/tal http://www.EverythingSysadmin.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 06:39:03 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SEd3R05879 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 06:39:03 -0800 (PST) From: shades2@iinet.net.au To: tal@whatexit.org, sage-members@usenix.org Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 22:38:45 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows Message-ID: <3E5FE4F5.23138.4E9BBBC@localhost> In-reply-to: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Is it really necessary to transfer the files encrypted? rsync -e ssh is basically instructing rysnc to encrypt with SSH. I would actually recommend ssh2 anyway, as ssh is no longer regarded as secure. It doesn't surprise me that ssh is taking up CPU cycles as encryption is CPU intensive work. Your bottleneck may well be your Unix side processing by the sounds of it, not your network. For a large file encryption it will take a lot of cycles and time to prepare. If you're dragging and dropping out of Samba as an alternative then you're doing no encrypted transfer anyway. try rysnc without your "-e ssh" option if that is allowed at your site. On 28 Feb 2003 at 9:25, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > I have a *lot* of files (over a gig in thousands of small files) from a > UNIX system (FreeBSD 4.x) to a Windows XP system. It takes forever. > > The obvious thing is to just access them over the network, however due > to real-time requirements we need to get them onto a local NTFS drive. > > Since the files are accessible on the UNIX server via Samba, we try a > drag and drop of the directory. It takes forever and if it fails it is > difficult to restart where things left off. > > We have Cygwin on the Windows system and use: > rsync -av -e ssh unixserver:/foo/bar . > > This takes 6-7 hours! Cygwin is just too slow. (Monitoring the system > shows that ssh is using all the CPU time). It does have the benefit > that if it bombs, we can restart it and it doesn't re-copy anything. > The incremental updates also means that if we make a change on the UNIX > side, another push just copies the changes. So, it's a perfect solution > feature-wise, it just is too darn slow. > > (Yes, we have 100M ethernet full duplex for the entire path (1 router > hop). No, gig-E isn't an option). > > I'd love to hear from other people that have solved this problem. > > (Oh, non-free solutions are fine. We have a budget.) > > --tal > > -- > Tom Limoncelli -- tal@whatexit.org > http://whatexit.org/tal > http://www.EverythingSysadmin.com > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 06:41:17 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SEfHQ06125 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 06:41:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: yar.midnightlinux.com: jo2y owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:41:10 -0500 (EST) From: "James O'Kane" To: Tom Limoncelli cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows In-Reply-To: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Have you tried something as simple as tar'ing them on the unix side and untar'ing them in windows? I had a problem similar to this and it seemed to cut the transfer significantly. This was a year ago, so I don't remember the exact numbers, but I seem to remember it was 3 or 4 minutes for the group of files and 45 seconds for the single tar file. -james From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 06:44:15 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SEiEj06387 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 06:44:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:43:23 -0500 From: Steve Simmons To: Tom Limoncelli Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows Message-ID: <20030228144323.GA40229@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 09:25:53AM -0500, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > I have a *lot* of files (over a gig in thousands of small files) from a > UNIX system (FreeBSD 4.x) to a Windows XP system. It takes forever. > > The obvious thing is to just access them over the network, however due > to real-time requirements we need to get them onto a local NTFS drive. Assuming you have admin permission on the NTFS drive, try copying a gzipped tarfile (possibly in a pipeline) and untarring with Cygwin tar locally. Advance apologies if that was too obvious and you'd already tried it, Tom. :-) -- Steve From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 06:45:22 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SEjMh06588 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 06:45:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:45:20 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "David N. Blank-Edelman" To: Tom Limoncelli Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows In-Reply-To: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org> Message-ID: References: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org> X-X-Sender: dnb@imap.ccs.neu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Howdy- The one thing that immediately jumps to mind is that rsync is bound to be really slow because it needs to stat and/or checksum all of the files on both sides. Can you get away with pulling the data in larger chunks (e.g. tar balls)? Do you have the ability to create a smarter update mechanism on the server that doesn't need to look at all of the files each time? At the very least, you could use rsync's ability to include only certain files so it doesn't have to scan the whole data set each time. -- dNb From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 06:45:53 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SEjrH06794 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 06:45:53 -0800 (PST) From: Thomas.Leyer@infineon.com To: jo2y@midnightlinux.com, tal@whatexit.org Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Message-ID: <93659FED3BE2D411A92400508BAD48BB02172A48@mchp542a.muc.infineon.com> Subject: RE: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 15:45:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hello, why don't you try this one: ssh whereverthestuffis 'tar cvf - thestuff.*' | tar xvf - worked pretty well when I used it (3 years ago) for backing up local user files from sparcstations... and you don't need disk- space for this !!!! ;-) Thom >-----Original Message----- >From: James O'Kane [mailto:jo2y@midnightlinux.com] >Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 3:41 PM >To: Tom Limoncelli >Cc: sage-members@usenix.org >Subject: Re: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows > > >Have you tried something as simple as tar'ing them on the unix >side and untar'ing them in windows? I had a problem similar to >this and it seemed to cut the transfer significantly. This was >a year ago, so I don't remember the exact numbers, but I seem >to remember it was 3 or 4 minutes for the group of files and >45 seconds for the single tar file. > >-james > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 06:46:29 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SEkTY07004 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 06:46:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:46:27 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "David N. Blank-Edelman" To: Tom Limoncelli Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows In-Reply-To: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org> Message-ID: References: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org> X-X-Sender: dnb@imap.ccs.neu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 28 Feb 2003, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > The obvious thing is to just access them over the network, however due > to real-time requirements we need to get them onto a local NTFS drive. One other question: does this have to happen when the NTFS-hosting system is hot? Can you use something like ghost to update a special partition? -- dNb From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 06:56:20 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SEuJa07425 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 06:56:19 -0800 (PST) From: shades2@iinet.net.au To: sage-members-owner@usenix.org Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 22:47:47 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mini-scheduler CC: ndo@unikservice.com, sage-members@usenix.org Message-ID: <3E5FE713.20641.4F1FE8B@localhost> In-reply-to: <20030228095720.GA2085@mars.starshine.org> References: <200302272127.h1RLRXe40808@gc0.generalconcepts.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We actually operated with a hacked lpd virtual print queue setup for job control under AIX and it worked to an extent, I really wouldn't recommend it though as it was prone to give serious problems with jobs hanging up in queues etc. when under load, and could give the spooler fits. This was in use for a number of years along with cron. I could only describe the setup as hacked into submission, and not a mission critical approach for the business. Our company eventually bit the bullet and purchased "Maestro" a IBM/Tivoli product which is designed for job control, comes with a TK front-end. This is a sophisticated batch/job control program for Unix. Your scripts should exit with 0 to indicate success though, the importance of that cannot be underlined more. Surprisingly many of our scripts exited with 1, 99, 9999 to show success. =) On 28 Feb 2003 at 1:57, jimd@mars.starshine.org wrote: > On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 04:27:33PM -0500, John Sellens wrote: > > ... > > > These systems aren't full-blown job schedulers, but if your needs > > aren't too complicated, you can get a lot of mileage out of the > > obvious cover shell scripts like this: > > > job1 || exit 1 > > job2 || exit 1 > > > Alternatively, one job could submit another, or you could use "flag > > files" to indicate success/failure. > > > I've never really had to bite this bullet - I've never had to deal > > with arbitrary tree structures of job dependencies. Your mileage > > may vary. > > > John > > make is pefect for handling arbitrarily complex dependencies -- > with the flag files acting as its dependency markers. I normally > don't have complex scheduling needs, but it would he hard to sell > me a complex package vs. the batch/shell/make and cron/at toolkit. > I'd be worried that I'd spend more time learning the (probably > proprietary) package than actually solving the problem at hand. > > (I also once read about someone who hacked together a set of lpd > virtual print queues and filters to implement their own network > job dispatch and scheduler, BTW. Sounds like a risky hack given > the number of security problems I've seen with old versions of lpd; > execute arbitrary jobs through it seems radically unwise, but > some of the functionality overlap does make sense). > > If I had a GUI-centric user community that needed to control and > submit their own jobs ... I might look at a commercial package with > a good interface. > > -- > Jim Dennis > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 06:57:03 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SEv3f07616 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 06:57:03 -0800 (PST) From: Thomas.Leyer@infineon.com To: jo2y@midnightlinux.com, tal@whatexit.org Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Message-ID: <93659FED3BE2D411A92400508BAD48BB02172A49@mchp542a.muc.infineon.com> Subject: RE: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 15:56:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk also works with the rsh command included in the cygwin stuff... >-----Original Message----- >From: Leyer Thomas (IT IFR M SYS) >Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 3:45 PM >To: jo2y@midnightlinux.com; tal@whatexit.org >Cc: sage-members@usenix.org >Subject: RE: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows > > > >Hello, > > why don't you try this one: > > ssh whereverthestuffis 'tar cvf - thestuff.*' | tar xvf - > >worked pretty well when I used it (3 years ago) for backing up >local user files from sparcstations... and you don't need >disk- space for this !!!! > > ;-) > >Thom > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: James O'Kane [mailto:jo2y@midnightlinux.com] >>Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 3:41 PM >>To: Tom Limoncelli >>Cc: sage-members@usenix.org >>Subject: Re: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows >> >> >>Have you tried something as simple as tar'ing them on the unix >>side and untar'ing them in windows? I had a problem similar to >>this and it seemed to cut the transfer significantly. This was >>a year ago, so I don't remember the exact numbers, but I seem >>to remember it was 3 or 4 minutes for the group of files and >>45 seconds for the single tar file. >> >>-james >> >> > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 07:16:58 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SFGwu08052 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:16:58 -0800 (PST) From: shades2@iinet.net.au To: dnb@ccs.neu.edu, sage-members-owner@usenix.org Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 23:03:03 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows CC: sage-members@usenix.org Message-ID: <3E5FEAA7.9891.4FFFA7F@localhost> References: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk He doesn't mention if it's a single directory containing 1 Gig of small files. This will slow down any file handling operation, even "ls" trying to stat the directory. A directory restructure may improve things vastly if possible. You don't want more than a few hundred files per directory if possible. I notice he is running rsync with the -av option meaning archive/recursion and verbose so I assume his directory structure is more complex than that. --read-batch and --write-batch options for rysnc may be useful here... this is still regarded as experimental for rsync however. On 28 Feb 2003 at 9:45, David N. Blank-Edelman wrote: > Howdy- > > The one thing that immediately jumps to mind is that rsync is bound to be > really slow because it needs to stat and/or checksum all of the files on > both sides. Can you get away with pulling the data in larger chunks (e.g. > tar balls)? > > Do you have the ability to create a smarter update mechanism on the server > that doesn't need to look at all of the files each time? At the very > least, you could use rsync's ability to include only certain files so it > doesn't have to scan the whole data set each time. > > -- dNb > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 07:24:47 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SFOlO08335 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:24:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:24:36 +0100 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Fujitsu Solaris systems Message-ID: <20030228152436.GA421@lust.cluon.priv.at> References: <1046377551.949.1.camel@starfury> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1046377551.949.1.camel@starfury> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Organisation: Cluon Research Center From: mike@cluon.priv.at (Thomas 'Mike' Michlmayr) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 14:25:51 -0600, Mark McCullough wrote: > Does anyone have any experience using Fujitsu hardware for Solaris? we have two primepower 2000 at work, and they work very well. we recently had our first big problem with them. a firmware-revision incompatibility caused one partition to lock so hard, the whole frame had to be powered down. but this was mostly a case of new (untested) HW pressed into service due to lack of resources. other than that, no problems so far. siemens also sold us DVSC (diskview smartcluster) by OSL as volume manager/clustering solution, which i personally find very interesting to use. it's an offspring of siemens' reliant-unix development, ported to solaris. i really like their view of clustering, and they support all sorts of 3rd party HW (EMC, HDS, ...). --=20 Thomas 'Mike' Michlmayr | ignorami: n: The BOFH art of folding problem=20 | lusers into representational shapes. --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQCVAwUBPl9/M7AgSjtD8pUhAQHzkwP+LR+D0kFOoMRirylfXYUe4JrIcqk8Cq6S tHtjifurlcRK7LT9NIAXQ/dY/RWaospY11HKMRFuOElUq34x7uvw3tBdBEtyKQgF xY4jraaVLCzw9evYt73v28UUO/XZsyKtNGu25+S/kENpTKT6ZFopSvMHHu/qrcEP XswpfKiMaeo= =I9kc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 07:26:55 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SFQto08567 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:26:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200302281526.KAA01441@ags.ga.erg.sri.com> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows In-Reply-To: Message from "James O'Kane" of "Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:41:10 EST." Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:26:30 -0500 From: Ted Nolan SRI Augusta GA X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk How about you just _create_ them on the NTFS in the first place? FreeBSD can mount SMB shares, so you could in theory share the NTFS drive, mount it on FreeBSD and whatever creates the files could create them just once, no copying. Ted From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 07:29:56 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SFTub08810 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:29:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:29:51 -0800 From: Alex Tsalolikhin To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030228152951.GA7845@corp.earthlink.net> Reply-To: Alex Tsalolikhin References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <3E5EC2D2.FA669F5@cs.iupui.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E5EC2D2.FA669F5@cs.iupui.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? The Internet!! Alex -- Alex Tsalolikhin +1-626-296-5479 Sr. Internet UNIX Sys Admin eesti@corp.earthlink.net Graveyard Shift, Pasadena EarthLink, Inc. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 07:34:11 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SFYBQ09079 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:34:11 -0800 (PST) From: Thomas.Leyer@infineon.com To: sage-members@usenix.org Message-ID: <93659FED3BE2D411A92400508BAD48BB02172A4A@mchp542a.muc.infineon.com> Subject: [SAGE] HP-UX: SD on nfs-appliance Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:33:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi There, perhaps anyone did something like this befor (or this is the wrong place for this question). I wan't to build a HP-UX Ignite server for automated server installation. For this purpose a software depot server is needed. This SD can be on a remote host. What I want it to be is on a Network Applicance filer, accessible via nfs. Ok, this it's no big deal, got it up & running. But what I need now is a way of keeping the meta-data of the depot on the server and the payload on the nfs... this shall avoid doubled-traffic for getting the depot stuff from the NetApp to the server and then to the installation target. The hpdocs stuff is not quite specific in these nfs related topics concerning SW management. Thanks Thomas From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 07:53:28 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SFrSj09540 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:53:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:52:33 -0500 (EST) From: "Julian C. Dunn" X-X-Sender: jdunn@enterprise.office.verticalscope.com To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-Reply-To: <1046399333.3e5ec96538e2f@mailhost.yourservice.com> Message-ID: <20030228104830.U5500@enterprise.office.verticalscope.com> References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <1046399333.3e5ec96538e2f@mailhost.yourservice.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, {Darkavich} wrote: > My coolest thing is my SunRay... I love being able to go anywhere on my > network, sit down and plug my smart card in and my MP3 music transfers > to that station :-) On the same note, the coolest thing that we've set up here this week is a diskless X-terminal in the server room with a sound card, running ESD. In addition to being a "boss evader terminal" (hence its hostname, 'evader') :-) we can run xmms on the development server and stream the decoded MP3s to the terminal. - Julian -- | Julian C. Dunn | | WWW: http://www.aquezada.com/staff/julian/ | | "I've got love and anger, they come as a pair" -- Aimee Mann | From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 08:00:28 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SG0So09853 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:00:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:00:22 -0800 From: Peter Van Epp To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030228160022.GA16662@sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? Has to be argus. Keeps the wild west network quite a bit less wild (or at least a lot more accountable after the fact ...). http://www.qosient.com/argus Peter Van Epp / Operations and Technical Support Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C. Canada From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 08:05:40 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SG5ev10118 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:05:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: linux1.gl.umbc.edu: andy owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:05:33 -0500 (EST) From: Anderson Johnston X-X-Sender: andy@linux1.gl.umbc.edu To: benjy@feen.com cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-AvMilter-Key: 1046448634:57339b42c83a981983834f0c28861058 X-Avmilter: Message Skipped, too small X-Processed-By: MilterMonkey Version 0.9 -- http://www.membrain.com/miltermonkey X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Trinux and The Coroner's Toolkit. On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Benjamin Feen wrote: > It's been a while since I've asked a random question on sage-members, so > here goes: > > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? > > Interpret the question any way you want. > > -- > Benjamin Feen > benjamin(AT)feen.com > http://www.monkeybagel.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ** Andy Johnston (andy@umbc.edu) * pager: 410-678-8949 ** ** Manager of IT Security * PGP key:(afj2002) 4096/8448B056 ** ** Office of Information Technology, UMBC * 4A B4 96 64 D9 B6 EF E3 21 9A ** ** 410-455-2583 (v)/410-455-1065 (f) * 46 1A 37 11 F5 6C 84 48 B0 56 ** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 08:13:16 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SGDGn10416 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:13:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:13:09 -0500 From: Luke Hankins To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mini-scheduler Message-ID: <20030228161309.GP4262@ethersmith.com> References: <200302272127.h1RLRXe40808@gc0.generalconcepts.com> <3E5FE713.20641.4F1FE8B@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E5FE713.20641.4F1FE8B@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We use the stock Mon (http://www.kernel.org/software/mon/) daemon as a dependency engine and job manager. It allows arbitrary dependencies, such as: - file exists (and is not growing) - process not yet run today - time / date check - DB load - number of feeds running - not a holiday - phase of the moon, etc. One of these days I'll write up the config file changes we use to make it happen. In my copious spare time. *sigh* -Luke From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 08:42:06 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SGg6A10989 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:42:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:42:04 -0800 From: Alex Tsalolikhin To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows Message-ID: <20030228164204.GA8076@corp.earthlink.net> Reply-To: Alex Tsalolikhin References: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 09:25:53AM -0500, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > I have a *lot* of files (over a gig in thousands of small files) from a > UNIX system (FreeBSD 4.x) to a Windows XP system. It takes forever. > > The obvious thing is to just access them over the network, however due > to real-time requirements we need to get them onto a local NTFS drive. Might take a look at CVSup. http://www.cvsup.org/ Haven't tried it myself yet. Web page says: CVSup uses lightweight processes (threads) to implement a streaming protocol across the network. This completely eliminates the delays associated with the lock-step, request-reply form of communication used by many existing protocols, such as sup and NNTP. Information is transferred at the full available speed of the network in both directions at once. Network latency and server response delays are rendered practically irrelevant. Yours, -at From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 08:43:10 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SGh9w11126 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:43:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:43:29 -0600 From: Tillman To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows Message-ID: <20030228104329.N17975@seekingfire.com> References: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org> <3E5FE4F5.23138.4E9BBBC@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3E5FE4F5.23138.4E9BBBC@localhost>; from shades2@iinet.net.au on Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 10:38:45PM +0800 X-Urban-Legend: There is lots of hidden information in headers X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 10:38:45PM +0800, shades2@iinet.net.au wrote: > > Is it really necessary to transfer the files encrypted? > > rsync -e ssh is basically instructing rysnc to encrypt with SSH. I would actually > recommend ssh2 anyway, as ssh is no longer regarded as secure. Along those lines, changing the crypto algorithm used can make a huge difference. Blowfish is /much/ "lighter" than 3des, for example. -T -- "Our opinions become fixed at the point where we stopped thinking." - Renan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 08:54:57 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SGsu511580 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:54:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:55:04 -0500 From: "Bryan C. Andregg" To: benjy@feen.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030228165503.GV11074@loopback.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Ov8FaLoBmnU9yDA5" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --Ov8FaLoBmnU9yDA5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Human Patient Simulator. --=20 Bryan C. Andregg http://www.loopback.net gpg 1024D/24BF71A9 D862 18C1 0B31 E09E 1180 D8DC 8FDA 4497 24BF 71A9 --Ov8FaLoBmnU9yDA5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQE+X5Rnj9pElyS/cakRArNcAJwOmNJKDtnaPdc3BkaKvE/ISCzLuACfSn9I CaBqSHYd7mQ0eatoFD/EHAw= =aDJF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Ov8FaLoBmnU9yDA5-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 09:19:42 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SHJfG12078 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:19:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:19:34 -0700 (MST) From: Yves Dorfsman X-X-Sender: yves@ginette To: Thomas.Leyer@infineon.com Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] HP-UX: SD on nfs-appliance In-Reply-To: <93659FED3BE2D411A92400508BAD48BB02172A4A@mchp542a.muc.infineon.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 Thomas.Leyer@infineon.com wrote: > What I want it to be is on a Network Applicance filer, accessible via nfs. > Ok, this it's no big deal, got it up & running. But what I need now is > a way of keeping the meta-data of the depot on the server and the payload > on the nfs... this shall avoid doubled-traffic for getting the depot stuff > from the NetApp to the server and then to the installation target. The sw* commands (the SD commands as HP calls them) talk to a daemon and are not 2 tier only, not 3 tier. The only way to avoid to talk to the SD server, would be to somehow re-create the depot on your target machine. If you have two HPUX machines that you don't mind destroying and having to re-install, you might want to play with coping pieces of what is in /var/adm/sw from your SD server to your install target (which would become an SD server serving itself). Yves. ---- Yves Dorfsman yves@zioup.com http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~dorfsmay http://www.SollerS.ca From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 09:35:30 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SHZU212583 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:35:30 -0800 (PST) To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Reply-To: "Sean J. Schluntz" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:35:10 PST." <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:35:27 -0800 Message-ID: <9596.1046453727@workofstone.com> From: "Sean J. Schluntz" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? Honistly, my new iBook with OS X. Everything I need is in the one laptop, my UNIX tools for probing systems and networks and building almost any software package out there. MS Office so my boss stops complaining about Star/OpenOffice, periferals that actually work as expected. I've been through: Solaris w/SoftWindows & WABI MacOS v8 w/Softwindows Windows w/Cygwin Windows w/VMWare Linux w/WABI Linux w/VMWare Linux w/Win4Lin and none of them let me do everything I wanted on one system, then MacOS X 10.2 came out (a version that works, and isn't super slow) and it all runs on one box. I still have to use Virtual PC to run my dissasembler, but that's about it. It's not for everyone, but it sure fits the bill for me. -Sean From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 09:37:35 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SHbZP12822 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:37:35 -0800 (PST) From: "David A. Chapa" To: Subject: RE: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:39:43 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <20030228152951.GA7845@corp.earthlink.net> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk No. 2 Pencil AND Years ago I used Plug 'n Play Software's recovery tool called tiramisu (now owned by OnTrack Data Recovery) that saved my butt when I inadvertently hit return during a Linux install to use ALL available drives...which whacked my then primary OS and all of my data files. Tiramisu recovered ALL of my data files...that was the coolest tool I used in a long time. David <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> David A. Chapa Backup Storage Consultant DataStaff, Inc. http://www.datastaff.com 312 683 1144 --------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: owner-sage-members@usenix.org [mailto:owner-sage-members@usenix.org]On Behalf Of Alex Tsalolikhin Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 9:30 AM To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? The Internet!! Alex -- Alex Tsalolikhin +1-626-296-5479 Sr. Internet UNIX Sys Admin eesti@corp.earthlink.net Graveyard Shift, Pasadena EarthLink, Inc. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 09:48:46 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SHmjg13253 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:48:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: goodall.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:48:40 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: Tom Limoncelli cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows In-Reply-To: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=5.1 tests=CARRIAGE_RETURNS,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, SPAM_PHRASE_03_05,USER_AGENT_PINE,X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.43 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 28 Feb 2003, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > I have a *lot* of files (over a gig in thousands of small files) from a > UNIX system (FreeBSD 4.x) to a Windows XP system. It takes forever. > > The obvious thing is to just access them over the network, however due > to real-time requirements we need to get them onto a local NTFS drive. > > Since the files are accessible on the UNIX server via Samba, we try a > drag and drop of the directory. It takes forever and if it fails it is > difficult to restart where things left off. > > We have Cygwin on the Windows system and use: > rsync -av -e ssh unixserver:/foo/bar . > > This takes 6-7 hours! Cygwin is just too slow. (Monitoring the system > shows that ssh is using all the CPU time). It does have the benefit > that if it bombs, we can restart it and it doesn't re-copy anything. > The incremental updates also means that if we make a change on the UNIX > side, another push just copies the changes. So, it's a perfect solution > feature-wise, it just is too darn slow. > > (Yes, we have 100M ethernet full duplex for the entire path (1 router > hop). No, gig-E isn't an option). > > I'd love to hear from other people that have solved this problem. > > (Oh, non-free solutions are fine. We have a budget.) > hmm. You could try unison.. I _think_ you should be able to build Ocaml on cygwin so that you could get unison working, but unison also has a native windows binary if I recall correctly. Unison is like rsync but better because it can bidirectionally synchronize things. The one nice feature about unison that might be helpful to you here is that you could use client/server socket mode and perhaps avoid all of the ssh overhead. Anyway, it's free, so it could be worth a try for you. I'd guess based upon your description that it might cut the time in half over the cpu bound ssh scenario (or better?) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 10:10:06 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SIA6B13870 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:10:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: krabbtop.int.diraba.de: bb set sender to gabriel.krabbe@dab.com using -f Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 19:06:29 +0100 From: Gabriel Krabbe To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows Message-ID: <20030228180629.GJ23718@idefix.rtfs.de> References: <93659FED3BE2D411A92400508BAD48BB02172A48@mchp542a.muc.infineon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <93659FED3BE2D411A92400508BAD48BB02172A48@mchp542a.muc.infineon.com> Organization: rtfs IT Services X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 03:45:27PM +0100, Thomas.Leyer@infineon.com wrote: > > Hello, > > why don't you try this one: > > ssh whereverthestuffis 'tar cvf - thestuff.*' | tar xvf - > > worked pretty well when I used it (3 years ago) for backing up > local user files from sparcstations... and you don't need disk- > space for this !!!! ssh will start a shell on the remote end to build the actual commandline and glob that string. That globbing will, in many cases (most, maybe all, haven't checked, won't bother, don't care) be asciibetically sorted. Doing that with lots of files will take serious time. If it's 100k files in a single directory, it's faster to tar up "." instead (unsorted, directory-entry ordered) and use an exclude list or delete afterwards or whatever. The single time I actually needed a list of > 800k files that were in a single directory, I used a long perl commandline (involving "while readdir") - stat()-ing all of the files to sort them into directories by date took less time than sorting them. Never mind the memory. Gabe, who wishes every ls had a "don't sort" option. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 11:00:07 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SJ07b14685 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:00:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:00:05 -0500 From: Thomas J Pinkl To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows Message-ID: <20030228140005.A27108@shire.hbsrx.com> References: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org>; from tal@whatexit.org on Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 09:25:53AM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 09:25:53AM -0500, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > We have Cygwin on the Windows system and use: > rsync -av -e ssh unixserver:/foo/bar . > > This takes 6-7 hours! Cygwin is just too slow. (Monitoring the system > shows that ssh is using all the CPU time). It does have the benefit > that if it bombs, we can restart it and it doesn't re-copy anything. > The incremental updates also means that if we make a change on the UNIX > side, another push just copies the changes. So, it's a perfect solution > feature-wise, it just is too darn slow. You might try rsync 2.5.6 with Craig Barratt's experimental "performance" patch. This was submitted to the rsync list in Dec 2002 but has not yet been accepted into the rsync core distribution. In the 2.5.6 tarball, it's "patches/craigb-perf.diff". I have not tried it myself. Hope it helps. -- Thomas J. Pinkl 738 Louis Drive Unix Systems Programmer Warminster, Pa 18974 Health Business Systems, Inc. (215) 442-9300 x9260 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 11:14:45 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SJEjH14998 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:14:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:14:41 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: "Sean J. Schluntz" cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <16700000.1046459680@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <9596.1046453727@workofstone.com> References: <9596.1046453727@workofstone.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Solaris w/SoftWindows & WABI Ah, yes, WABI, the Windows Application Binary Interface. To rhyme with "flabby" (for lack of a better word, and not as an aspersion on WABI but only to set up the next joke). I went to a Sun video uplink thing one day, years ago, where they let the "studio audience" ask questions of the assembled potentates on stage. (Ed Zander was there.) I asked them if they were working on MABI, which I pronounced "maybe". "Maybe it will ship. Maybe it will work." I'm pretty sure these comments went out over the "air". They did come out with MAE shortly thereafter, but I never used it. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 11:27:00 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SJR0N15420 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:27:00 -0800 (PST) To: Jim Hickstein Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] WABI & MAE Reply-To: "Sean J. Schluntz" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:14:41 PST." <16700000.1046459680@jxh.mirapoint.com> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:26:57 -0800 Message-ID: <10092.1046460417@workofstone.com> From: "Sean J. Schluntz" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In message <16700000.1046459680@jxh.mirapoint.com>, Jim Hickstein writes: >> Solaris w/SoftWindows & WABI > >Ah, yes, WABI, the Windows Application Binary Interface. To rhyme with >"flabby" (for lack of a better word, and not as an aspersion on WABI but >only to set up the next joke). > >I went to a Sun video uplink thing one day, years ago, where they let the >"studio audience" ask questions of the assembled potentates on stage. (Ed >Zander was there.) I asked them if they were working on MABI, which I >pronounced "maybe". "Maybe it will ship. Maybe it will work." I'm pretty >sure these comments went out over the "air". > >They did come out with MAE shortly thereafter, but I never used it. I never used MAE, but the lead developer at a company I worked for had. He explained it as a real painful experience. He said it was so slow that you were better off saving the disk space. The funny thing to me is, back then I though Mac's were already slow, (that GUI just gets the way you know ;) so to have someone who was a Mac fan say something like that was to slow was a real statement. The one thing I was dissapointed in was the death of WABI32. You could get WABI for Linux, and it worked ok, but WABI32 was going to be cool. Then Sun dropped it. Now it doesn't matter, VMWare, Win4Lin, VirtualPC, Bochs all do it for you, free. -Sean From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 11:32:26 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SJWQG15694 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:32:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:32:20 -0800 From: Benjamin Feen To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030228193219.GE32122@pianosa.catch22.org> Reply-To: Benjamin Feen Mail-Followup-To: Benjamin Feen , sage-members@usenix.org References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <1046396497.1731.54.camel@Narsil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1046396497.1731.54.camel@Narsil> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 03:41:37PM -1000, Camron W. Fox wrote: > My CAT5 O'Nine Tails. One of the more intimidating (L)User Alignment > Tools. You should see their faces when you walk into the room with it... http://www.roadkill.net/madmins/CAT509pro.html -- Benjamin Feen benjamin(AT)feen.com http://www.monkeybagel.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 11:32:38 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SJWcM15772 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:32:38 -0800 (PST) To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: Jim Hickstein Subject: [SAGE] WABI & MAE (completed post) Reply-To: "Sean J. Schluntz" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:14:41 PST." <16700000.1046459680@jxh.mirapoint.com> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:32:35 -0800 Message-ID: <10187.1046460755@workofstone.com> From: "Sean J. Schluntz" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk (sorry, my TERM setting got away from me there, and I fat fingered part of my post.) In message <16700000.1046459680@jxh.mirapoint.com>, Jim Hickstein writes: >> Solaris w/SoftWindows & WABI > >Ah, yes, WABI, the Windows Application Binary Interface. To rhyme with >"flabby" (for lack of a better word, and not as an aspersion on WABI but >only to set up the next joke). > >I went to a Sun video uplink thing one day, years ago, where they let the >"studio audience" ask questions of the assembled potentates on stage. (Ed >Zander was there.) I asked them if they were working on MABI, which I >pronounced "maybe". "Maybe it will ship. Maybe it will work." I'm pretty >sure these comments went out over the "air". > >They did come out with MAE shortly thereafter, but I never used it. I never used MAE, but the lead developer at a company I worked for had. He explained it as a real painful experience. He said it was so slow that you were better off saving the disk space. The funny thing to me is, back then I though Mac's were already slow, (that GUI just gets the way you know ;) so to have someone who was a Mac fan say something like that was to slow was a real statement. The one thing I was dissapointed in was the death of WABI32. You could get WABI for Linux, and it worked ok, but WABI32 was going to be cool. Then Sun dropped it. Now it doesn't matter, VMWare, Win4Lin, VirtualPC, Bochs all do it for you, and if you don't mind it being slow Bochs does it free (sans license that is). One app I loved under Linux was Executor. MacOS 7.0/6.x emulator, quite fast if not mostly useless :) I still have a current license of that. -Sean From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 12:05:58 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SK5wY16753 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:05:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:49:57 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Benjamin Feen cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <28560000.1046461797@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <20030228193219.GE32122@pianosa.catch22.org> References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <1046396497.1731.54.camel@Narsil> <20030228193219.GE32122@pianosa.catch22.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Status: R Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > http://www.roadkill.net/madmins/CAT509pro.html Not that I subscribe to this viewpoint, but someone once sent me this lovely item as his favorite LART: http://www.mtgplace.com/com/jarvis/product.asp?iService=564 He's one sick puppy. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 12:13:28 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SKDSd17359 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:13:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 18:13:23 -0600 (CST) From: Karl Schlitt To: Benjamin Feen cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Status: RO Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Benjamin Feen wrote: > > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? > > Interpret the question any way you want. PuTTY. When layer 8 imposes a M$ desktop, this ssh/telnet client is the reason it can work. Stick Hummingbird's X server on the pc, and ssh can tunnel X, and it is almost like being there. And it is free. If it did sco-ansi and tn3270 it would be killer. .karl (still looking for a linux notes client) -- Karl Schlitt karl@dakota-st.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 12:14:57 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SKEvj17504 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:14:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? From: "Camron W. Fox" To: Benjy Feen Cc: "Sage-Members@Usenix. " Org In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 (1.0.8-10) Date: 27 Feb 2003 15:41:37 -1000 Message-Id: <1046396497.1731.54.camel@Narsil> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Status: RO Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk My CAT5 O'Nine Tails. One of the more intimidating (L)User Alignment Tools. You should see their faces when you walk into the room with it... On Thu, 2003-02-27 at 13:35, Benjamin Feen wrote: > It's been a while since I've asked a random question on sage-members, so > here goes: > > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? > > Interpret the question any way you want. > > -- > Benjamin Feen > benjamin(AT)feen.com > http://www.monkeybagel.com -- Best Regards, Camron Camron W. Fox High Performance Computing Group Fujitsu America, Inc. Hilo Office E-mail: cwfox@fujitsu.com Phone: (808) 934-4102 Pager: (808) 934-1290 Cell: (808) 937-5026 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 12:17:53 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SKHqC17933 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:17:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 22:05:40 -0800 (PST) From: Ray Hiltbrand X-X-Sender: rayh@grace.speakeasy.net To: Doug Hughes cc: Mark McCullough , Subject: Re: [SAGE] Fujitsu Solaris systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Status: RO Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The financial services company that I work for has deployed several hundred of these devices not only in development but also production around the globe. In testing different application from web, app, middleware to database we have yet to find any applications would run on a Sun branded box and not on a Fuji branded box. For the applications that we tested the lastest chips from fuji seem to edge out on performance compared to the lastest from Sun. (600MHZ Fuji throughput was faster then 900MHz USIII) your mileage may very. Now as previously reported since the kernel is a sun4us kernel you will need to download patches from the Fujitsu site and depending on the hardware release of Solaris you use you may need to get Solaris from Fujitsu. Typically the first hardware releas from SUN does not include the sun4us kernel however later hardware releases do have the sun4us kernel. -- Ray W. Hiltbrand rayh at speakeasy org "Restlessness and discontent are the first necessities of progress." -Edison On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Doug Hughes wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 02:25:51PM -0600, Mark McCullough wrote: > > Does anyone have any experience using Fujitsu hardware for Solaris? Is > > there anything that I would need to be aware of before evaluating it? > > I'm nervous about their claim of complete compatability despite not > > using the same hardware, is it really true? > > remember that SPARCinternational is a consortium. as long as you > build to spec, it's compatible. (also remember that fujitsu and > Sun have a very long relationship going back to early CPUs (remember > the HyperSparc? (among others)). > > I believe that e*trade makes extensive use of Fujitsu sparc > devices. > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 12:18:12 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SKICi18085 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:18:12 -0800 (PST) From: "W. Curtis Preston" To: "'Michael Gorski'" , Subject: RE: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 22:34:13 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c2def3$69514c30$3801f20a@pres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3E5ED2EC.2090409@computer.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id h1S6YHr11426 Status: RO Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? It's got to be this server that I've bought (and am reselling): http://www.net-itech.com Everything I've ever wanted all in one box: - Hardened and ruggedized Linux based UNIX kernel - SMB and AppleShare IP compatible file services, UNIX NFS - SMTP, POP3, IMAP4, Secure POP3, Secure IMAP4, WebMail - Journaling file system - Transparent proxy - FTP/anonymous FTP - MySQL server - Realtime Blackhole List (RBL), email SPAM-blocking tool (Soon to be SpamAssassin) - Optional email virus scanner - DDNS (Dynamic DNS) - no need for a static - IP Remote user management tools - DoubleVision high reliability Internet connectivity - load balances across two or more IP connections - SNMP network monitoring support - Apache web server with CGI scripting Perl 5.0, PHP and SSL support (Non registered SSL certificate already installed) - Supports virtual hosts (with one IP) - Web content filtering (optional server-based web-site exclusion/inclusion) - Auto-configuring firewall (Easy enough for even me) - TunnelVision VPN (virtual private network) with 128 bit Blowfish encryption logarithm (Auto VPN between two systems) - IPsec support - RAS (remote access services) PPTP support (VPN via Internet) - NAT (network address translation) - DNS (domain name server), DHCP and LDAP servers (Does DNS for all DHCP clients) - PPPoE-DSL support - Intelligent backup software (Integrated disk backup -- way cool -- backs up every 15 minutes) - NetIntelligence artificial intelligence configuration and management system (Automatically detects network you plug it into and sets to available IP address.) - SystemER 2-minute disaster recovery system -- AWESOME - RAID levels supported: 1, 5 - Analog dial-in support - Web control interface -- All interface done via the Web - NT Domain controller included Exchange drop-in replacement included with 3 free seats From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 12:26:17 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SKQHC19047 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:26:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: goodall.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:26:11 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-Reply-To: <000001c2def3$69514c30$3801f20a@pres> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.5 required=5.1 tests=CARRIAGE_RETURNS,IN_REP_TO,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT_PINE,X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.43 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Veritas volume manager (ideally with filesystem). All the flexibility I need to manage storage in any way I desire. I can relayout anything to any configuration on the fly, add new devices, migrate, etc, without the customer ever knowing or caring. (though I still use disksuite when more appropriate) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 12:38:56 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SKcuH19493 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:38:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:38:52 -0600 From: "Mark D. Roth" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030228143852.A5208@yorktown.isdn.uiuc.edu> References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org>; from benjy@feen.com on Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 03:35:10PM -0800 Organization: Feep Networks X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu Feb 27 15:35 2003 -0800, Benjamin Feen wrote: > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? A C compiler. :) -- Mark D. Roth http://www.feep.net/~roth/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 13:42:52 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SLgqu20450 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:42:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? From: "Camron W. Fox" To: Sage-Members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <28560000.1046461797@jxh.mirapoint.com> References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <1046396497.1731.54.camel@Narsil> <20030228193219.GE32122@pianosa.catch22.org> <28560000.1046461797@jxh.mirapoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 (1.0.8-10) Date: 28 Feb 2003 11:07:25 -1000 Message-Id: <1046466445.1764.13.camel@Narsil> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Status: R Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 2003-02-28 at 09:49, Jim Hickstein wrote: > > http://www.roadkill.net/madmins/CAT509pro.html > > Not that I subscribe to this viewpoint, but someone once sent me this > lovely item as his favorite LART: > > http://www.mtgplace.com/com/jarvis/product.asp?iService=564 > > He's one sick puppy. > Oh my god, after I get off the floor and regain my composure, I'm calling Jarvis!! I NEED one of these to place in a holster on my desk for quick draw!! -- Best Regards, Camron Camron W. Fox High Performance Computing Group Fujitsu America, Inc. Hilo Office E-mail: cwfox@fujitsu.com Phone: (808) 934-4102 Pager: (808) 934-1290 Cell: (808) 937-5026 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 14:00:52 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SM0qu20936 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:00:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:58:14 -0500 From: Steve Simmons To: "Camron W. Fox" Cc: Sage-Members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030228215814.GB41962@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Status: R Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 2003-02-28 at 09:49, Jim Hickstein wrote: > > http://www.roadkill.net/madmins/CAT509pro.html > Not that I subscribe to this viewpoint, but someone once sent me this > lovely item as his favorite LART: > > http://www.mtgplace.com/com/jarvis/product.asp?iService=564 > > He's one sick puppy. Indeed. My under-age daughter was working as a volunteer door guard at a science fiction convention, and many of the passers-by were hitting on her. A family friend who was selling, er, military stuff, noticed her discomfort and gave her a fully functional morningstar. (Think a spiked ball attached to a handle by a chain). It rather resembled the tail of a stegasaurus. After the convention she let me take it to work as a LART. The first person who say it nicknamed it "The Thagomizer" (Far Side ref), and I promptly picked up the nickname of "Thag". It was quite intimidating. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 14:25:30 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SMPTC21480 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:25:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200302282225.h1SMPMU11314@frodo.mcs.anl.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: frodo.mcs.anl.gov: rackow owned process doing -bs To: "Camron W. Fox" cc: Sage-Members@usenix.org, rackow@mcs.anl.gov Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? X-Spam-Status: No In-reply-to: Your message of "28 Feb 2003 11:07:25 -1000." <1046466445.1764.13.camel@Narsil> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:25:22 -0600 From: Gene Rackow X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The coolest tool that I have that I use almost daily is my "original" Leatherman tool. It's seen better days, but has been on my side for around 20 years now. For those that have an older leatherman, mine came to life before they started sticking metric markings on the ruler and calling it the PST. In regards to the jarvis product, I think I prefer the Marvin the Martian ray gun/water pistol to this. Yes there is the humor of knowing how it would normally be applied, but it would take some explaining to most. This Marvin, it;s rather clear it should be a disintigration gun. Also, I can actually pull the trigger at various people and feel better about it. It has that look of being the disintegrating pistol he kept using on Daffy Duck. The other thing that helps, is a Tyco R/C Speed Dozer. A race car when going one way and a bulldozer in reverse. My dreem is to fix the interface to it so I can just give the command and it pushes the problem out my door. ;-) I know it's not hard to do, just need the time to do right. --Gene "Camron W. Fox" made the following keystrokes: >On Fri, 2003-02-28 at 09:49, Jim Hickstein wrote: >> > http://www.roadkill.net/madmins/CAT509pro.html >> >> Not that I subscribe to this viewpoint, but someone once sent me this >> lovely item as his favorite LART: >> >> http://www.mtgplace.com/com/jarvis/product.asp?iService=564 >> >> He's one sick puppy. >> > > Oh my god, after I get off the floor and regain my composure, I'm >calling Jarvis!! I NEED one of these to place in a holster on my desk >for quick draw!! > >-- >Best Regards, >Camron > >Camron W. Fox >High Performance Computing Group >Fujitsu America, Inc. >Hilo Office >E-mail: cwfox@fujitsu.com >Phone: (808) 934-4102 >Pager: (808) 934-1290 >Cell: (808) 937-5026 > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 14:39:26 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SMdQm21921 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:39:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:39:23 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Sage-Members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <46000000.1046471963@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <1046466445.1764.13.camel@Narsil> References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <1046396497.1731.54.camel@Narsil><20030228193219.GE32122@pianosa.catch22.org> <28560000.1046461797@jxh.mirapoint.com> <1046466445.1764.13.camel@Narsil> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >> Not that I [deleted] to this viewpoint [...] Will everyone who quotes my original message please refrain from duplicating that deleted word up there? I'm told it's giving Majordomo some difficulty. A moment's thought should make it clear just why. (The moderator has been dealing with this, and not complaining, but I felt I should say something.) Me and my twelve-dollar words.... From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 14:49:07 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SMn6t22306 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:49:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:49:02 -0800 From: David Alban To: sage-Members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030228144902.H1295@gerasimov.net> Reply-To: David Alban References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <1046396497.1731.54.camel@Narsil><20030228193219.GE32122@pianosa.catch22.org> <28560000.1046461797@jxh.mirapoint.com> <1046466445.1764.13.camel@Narsil> <46000000.1046471963@jxh.mirapoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RDS4xtyBfx+7DiaI" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <46000000.1046471963@jxh.mirapoint.com>; from jxh@jxh.com on Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 02:39:23PM -0800 X-PGP-Key: ID 0xCFCEA5D0, or see http://www.extasia.org/public_key/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 708D 7772 46D0 BA64 766C 4AE1 3E1D 0CF5 CFCE A5D0 X-Use-Encryption: Encrypted email encouraged (see www.gnupg.org) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --RDS4xtyBfx+7DiaI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 2003/02/28/14:39 -0800 Jim Hickstein wrote: > Will everyone who quotes my original message please refrain from=20 > duplicating that deleted word up there? I'm told it's giving Majordomo= =20 > some difficulty. A moment's thought should make it clear just why. (The= =20 > moderator has been dealing with this, and not complaining, but I felt I= =20 > should say something.) >=20 > Me and my twelve-dollar words.... Given the current economy, they're now only worth $ 9.24. --=20 Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. *** Come to sig-beer-west! http://www.extasia.org/sig-beer-west/ Unix sysadmin available: http://www.extasia.org/resume/ --RDS4xtyBfx+7DiaI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE+X+dePh0M9c/OpdARAu46AKC+8d7MmPX+bmRrzD9Cciz6+FWxlwCfWsf7 uzqQaOgGMuOjr4X2L0Id9Mk= =kwM8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RDS4xtyBfx+7DiaI-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 14:49:24 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SMnOt22364 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:49:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:49:22 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] WABI & MAE (completed post) Message-ID: <20030228144922.A54702@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <16700000.1046459680@jxh.mirapoint.com> <10187.1046460755@workofstone.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <10187.1046460755@workofstone.com>; from schluntz@workofstone.com on Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 11:32:35AM -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 11:32:35AM -0800, Sean J. Schluntz wrote: > The one thing I was dissapointed in was the death of WABI32. You could get > WABI for Linux, and it worked ok, but WABI32 was going to be cool. Then > Sun dropped it. > > Now it doesn't matter, VMWare, Win4Lin, VirtualPC, Bochs all do it for you, > and if you don't mind it being slow Bochs does it free (sans license that > is). except that WABI ran at semi-acceptible speeds, on *sparc*. and ran things better than sunpc in software-only mode. BTW: MAE3 was a noticable speed improvement over MAE2. Not fast enough to play games, but still pretty cool conceptually, if there was no mac around you. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 14:52:41 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SMqfB22678 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:52:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:52:40 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: Sage-Members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030228145240.B54702@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: Sage-Members@usenix.org References: <1046466445.1764.13.camel@Narsil> <200302282225.h1SMPMU11314@frodo.mcs.anl.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <200302282225.h1SMPMU11314@frodo.mcs.anl.gov>; from rackow@mcs.anl.gov on Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 04:25:22PM -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 04:25:22PM -0600, Gene Rackow wrote: > The coolest tool that I have that I use almost daily is > my "original" Leatherman tool. It's seen better days, > but has been on my side for around 20 years now. For > those that have an older leatherman, mine came to life before > they started sticking metric markings on the ruler and calling > it the PST. I like the Victorinox "swiss army knife" competing product. (Sun was giving it out, with sun logo, as a bonus item recently) Nice. The only problem is that it doesnt have scissors (heresy!) but quite spiffy... and kinda scarey, when you open it up so the two arms are end-to-end... it makes for a considerably hefty blackjack. yikes. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 15:05:38 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SN5cf23183 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 15:05:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: bushido.realityfailure.org: jjasen owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:21:18 -0500 (EST) From: John Jasen X-X-Sender: jjasen@bushido To: Philip Brown cc: Sage-Members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-Reply-To: <20030228145240.B54702@bolthole.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 28 Feb 2003, Philip Brown wrote: > I like the Victorinox "swiss army knife" competing product. > (Sun was giving it out, with sun logo, as a bonus item recently) > Nice. The only problem is that it doesnt have scissors (heresy!) There is a version with heresy^Wscissors. -- -- John E. Jasen (jjasen@realityfailure.org) -- User Error #2361: Please insert coffee and try again. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 15:07:46 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SN7kP23397 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 15:07:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:07:38 -0700 (MST) From: Yves Dorfsman X-X-Sender: yves@ginette To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] How to change the group id on a veritas Disk Group In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I am running in a bit of a problem here. We have an EMC Symetrix, two hosts plugged to it (actually more, but only two are relevant here), one for prod, one for pre-prod. We use the EMC BCV technology to copy the disks from prod to pre-prod. EMC BCV is a physical copy of the disks. We have on big database on prod, but need two separate copies of it in pre-prod. For some (valid) reason, we HAVE TO use veritas filesystem and lvm. The problem we run into here, is that both copies of prod are physical copies of pre-prod, therefore I can "vxdg import" only one of them at a time, even though when I rename the disk group. It looks like the problem is that even when you rename the disk group, the disk group ID doesn't change. Anybody has run into this ? How did you solve it ? Or.... Any idea on how to change the DG ID on a veritas dg ? Thanks, Yves. PS: I do have a call open with veritas on this, just wondered if somebody had ran into the same problem, and could offer some ideas. ---- Yves Dorfsman yves@zioup.com http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~dorfsmay http://www.SollerS.ca From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 15:51:27 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h1SNpRf24190 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 15:51:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 15:51:13 -0800 From: David Alban To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: Sweth Chandramouli Subject: [SAGE] Valicert Secure Transport Message-ID: <20030228155113.A5438@gerasimov.net> Reply-To: David Alban Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-PGP-Key: ID 0xCFCEA5D0, or see http://www.extasia.org/public_key/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 708D 7772 46D0 BA64 766C 4AE1 3E1D 0CF5 CFCE A5D0 X-Use-Encryption: Encrypted email encouraged (see www.gnupg.org) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Forwarded on behalf of Sweth. Please include Sweth in your replies. Thanks! - ----- Forwarded message from Sweth Chandramouli ----- Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 15:53:05 -0500 From: Sweth Chandramouli To: DC-SAGE Subject: [dc-sage] Valicert Secure Transport Reply-To: Sweth Chandramouli Anyone got any experience with the above, or know of anyone who does? I've got to make a decision on whether to drop $50k on it by Monday, and while the sales droids make it sound like exactly what I need, I'd like an objective opinion. (Well, what I'd really like is a week to play with the demo version of it, but apparently I'm not going to have that luxury...) -- Sweth. - -- Sweth Chandramouli Idiopathic Systems Consulting svc@idiopathic.net http://www.idiopathic.net/ ====================================================================== + This message was forwarded by the dc-sage@dc-sage.org mailing list + + To unsubscribe or make subscription changes, send an E-mail to: + + mladmin@dc-sage.org with an English description of your request.+ ====================================================================== - -- Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. *** Come to sig-beer-west! http://www.extasia.org/sig-beer-west/ Unix sysadmin available: http://www.extasia.org/resume/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD4DBQE+X/W5Ph0M9c/OpdARAl5jAJY2BhaVrglBTML33Z7gwlr/KrXTAKCc3DTJ TUNzPbjfWb8sGoB/2YPSSA== =8S35 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 16:04:08 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h21048G24576 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:04:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:03:14 -0800 From: "Mark C. Langston" To: Cat Okita Cc: iagemembers@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030228160314.N33844@bitshift.org> References: <20030227165620.F33844@bitshift.org> <20030227195859.O63735-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030227195859.O63735-100000@iguana.reptiles.org>; from cat@reptiles.org on Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 07:59:48PM -0500 X-Uptime: 4:01PM up 71 days, 1:30, 10 users, load averages: 0.30, 0.24, 0.18 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 07:59:48PM -0500, Cat Okita wrote: > > Have I missed OmniGraffle having a sudden influx of interesting and useful > templates? The last time I checked, it didn't have anything near the > feature set that I was looking for... > A quick Google (please don't sue me!) for "omnigraffle palettes" turned up quite a bit. Unless the term "templates" means something different these days. -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark@bitshift.org mark@seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 16:06:02 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h21062624742 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:06:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 19:05:59 -0500 From: Joseph S D Yao To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Failing over from one mail proxy to another Message-ID: <20030228190559.R30052@gwyn.tux.org> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i X-Accepted-File-Formats: ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Apologies for not being able to use any company/client names in the following. You should be able to follow with just "them" and "us", though. We am running a private internet that just got connected to an other one via a mail proxy. So, we want to send all mail to the other domain via this proxy. Easy, right? No. One of the loose confederation of groups on our private internet refuses to send mail via this proxy unless we set up a mechanism whereby it can fail back to going out through a different proxy, to the public Internet, and back in through the other group's proxy firewall to the public Internet. He continues to send mail from his group's mail server out one of the proxies to the public Internet. Partly unreasonable, if privacy is any consideration [and it was part of the whole purpose of doing this], and partly reasonable, if reliability is any consideration [which it also is]. We have no control over the brain functions of any of these group leaders, so let's take the requirement as a given. Now, normally we would have liked to implement this by spoofing DNS MX records internally. But as DNS gets more reliable, it gets less spoofable. The usual way to do this would have been to hijack the other domain. As the other domain has LOTS of entries on the public Internet, as well as multiple sub-domains, and is fairly dynamic, we would have to capture all those entries as well, dynamically. We had thought about this before implementing it, and decided to just do something equivalent to putting the domain in sendmail's mailertable [in many cases doing exactly that] with a delivery host pointing to the proxy to the other domain. But mailertables and other similar rules don't give me a way to fail over to another delivery host. The only way I can think of is using MX records. I am tempted to set up a separate DNS structure just for mail servers - just for this one group's mail server! - but (a) this would cause chaos to reign, especially since (b) the mail servers do more than just serve mail. Does anybody have any reasonable suggestions on how to get this done? Thanks! -- /*********************************************************************\ ** ** Joe Yao jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao ** \*********************************************************************/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 17:16:34 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h211GY925664 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:16:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:16:31 -0500 From: Joseph S D Yao To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failing over from one mail proxy to another Message-ID: <20030228201631.V30052@gwyn.tux.org> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <20030228190559.R30052@gwyn.tux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20030228190559.R30052@gwyn.tux.org>; from jsdy@tux.org on Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 07:05:59PM -0500 X-Accepted-File-Formats: ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Early responses remind me that, once a mailertable entry is chosen, 'sendmail' will still [unless instructed not to] look for MX records for the chosen target host! So, I could have the holdout have a local DNS zone for just the inter-domain proxy itself, like this: zone "them-gw.them.us.org" { type master; file "zone.them-gw"; }; zone.them-gw: $TTL high @ SOA ... A 10.1.1.1 MX 0 them-gw.them.us.org MX 42 inet-gw.us.org or, if the other domain agrees, I could do this for the whole private internet ... Hmmm. But what happens at the firewalls to the public Internet? They look at internal DNS first, so that they won't try to deliver internal mail to themselves. I guess we would have to make a separate view for the firewalls: MX 0 them-gw.them.us.org MX 42 ext-fw.them.org And what if a firewall needs to know of another host in the them.us.org domain? This is getting more complicated ... and another reason that we backed off from the MX solution in the first place ... Thanks for the early responses, though! -- /*********************************************************************\ ** ** Joe Yao jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao ** \*********************************************************************/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 17:22:51 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h211Mp725948 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:22:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:22:49 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failing over from one mail proxy to another Message-ID: <20030228172249.A7049@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <20030228190559.R30052@gwyn.tux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030228190559.R30052@gwyn.tux.org>; from jsdy@tux.org on Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 07:05:59PM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 07:05:59PM -0500, Joseph S D Yao wrote: > ... > But mailertables and other similar rules don't give me a way to fail > over to another delivery host. Depends on your MTA. I vaguely remember reading about some kind of failover entry for mailertables. Only problem is, I dont remember specifically whether it was for sendmail, or postfix, or... (twas most likely sendmail, though) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 18:21:07 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h212L7W26576 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:21:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E601951.6040703@lclark.edu> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:22:09 -0800 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020830 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Van Epp CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? References: <20030228160022.GA16662@sfu.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Peter Van Epp wrote: >>What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? > > > Has to be argus. Keeps the wild west network quite a bit less wild > (or at least a lot more accountable after the fact ...). > > http://www.qosient.com/argus > > Peter Van Epp / Operations and Technical Support > Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C. Canada RTFM!? Oh, I see, Real-Time Flow Measurement (RTFM) JoHN MiLLeR http://www.lclark.edu/~miller From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 19:11:04 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h213B3R27067 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 19:11:04 -0800 (PST) To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? References: <9596.1046453727@workofstone.com> From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: 28 Feb 2003 19:11:01 -0800 In-Reply-To: <9596.1046453727@workofstone.com> Message-ID: <863cm77pdm.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Lines: 59 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Sean" == Sean J Schluntz writes: >> What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? ["iBook gushing" deleted] Sean> and none of them let me do everything I wanted on one system, then Sean> MacOS X 10.2 came out (a version that works, and isn't super slow) Sean> and it all runs on one box. And on top of that, having access to powerful open-source tools through fink (think "apt-get" for the mac) lets me do cool fieldwork. Case in point... On the most recent Geek Cruise (www.geekcruises.com), we were out at sea, using the 802.11 wireless accesspoint to the satellite, so that we could still get T-1 speeds without a spec of land in sight. Strangely, about a third of the time, people were unable to connect, although they could see the wireless signal just fine. Oddly enough, it plagued different laptops at different times. As the connection required an authentication through a 10.x.y.1 gateway (a linux box), I waited until someone couldn't connect, then grabbed their box and trying to ping the dot-1. No go. On a whim, I dump the ARP table. Bad MACaddr! So I fire up ethereal on my Titanium Powerbook in my nice X11 display, start sniffing, clear my ARP cache, and try a ping. Boom... two ARP responses within 2 ms of each other. The good box (.1) and a bad box (.10), which ethereal identified as having a cisco MACaddr. I drag the log on my laptop over to the internet cafe manager (who was not brilliant, but knew enough not to question me :-), and say "there's a cisco box on this net that is messing up the wireless", and he says "yeah, that's the router for the satellite link". Aha! I say "Oh, it's probably in Proxy ARP mode when it shouldn't be, and it has agressive filtering so the packets can't flow that direction anyway". He says "I don't understand what your saying" and I say "mail your tech support those words". Once I had diagnosed the problem, I was able to tell the rest of the geeks that "if you can't log in, delete your arp cache and try again", and the workaround helped tremendously. It wasn't long before he came back to me saying "they said they fixed it", and I tested, and sure enough, no more false proxy arp! Thank you, TiBook and open source software (and to everyone who has explained IP packets to me in my lifetime :-). Obligatory plug - if you want someone clever like me working for your organization, I'm a bit hungry right now... make me an offer. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 28 20:12:38 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h214Cch27585 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:12:38 -0800 (PST) From: shades2@iinet.net.au To: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 12:12:26 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? CC: sage-members@usenix.org Message-ID: <3E60A3AA.28375.7D2ABF5@localhost> References: <9596.1046453727@workofstone.com> In-reply-to: <863cm77pdm.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I had a similar one after I acquired 4 older Cisco 2503 access routers. I didn't have a console cable at hand, so I booted the Cisco with the 10baseT ethernet port hooked into my hub and sniffed the network with Ethereal, which divulged the IP addresses as each router came up and started broadcasting around. I just changed my Win2K box eth0 IP address into that address range, telnetted into the router and changed it's ethernet to 192.168.0.x. Once I'd done that to each router I switched my Win2k box back to a 192.168 address and had access to each router for further configuration over ethernet. An excellent tool, every sysadmin should have it, and there's a Linux and Windows version: http:/www.ethereal.com Mike. On 28 Feb 2003 at 19:11, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > > So I fire up ethereal on my Titanium Powerbook in my nice X11 display, > start sniffing, clear my ARP cache, and try a ping. Boom... two ARP > responses within 2 ms of each other. The good box (.1) and a bad box > (.10), which ethereal identified as having a cisco MACaddr. I drag > the log on my laptop over to the internet cafe manager (who was not > brilliant, but knew enough not to question me :-), and say "there's a > cisco box on this net that is messing up the wireless", and he says > "yeah, that's the router for the satellite link". Aha! I say "Oh, > it's probably in Proxy ARP mode when it shouldn't be, and it has > agressive filtering so the packets can't flow that direction anyway". > He says "I don't understand what your saying" and I say "mail your > tech support those words". > > Once I had diagnosed the problem, I was able to tell the rest of the > geeks that "if you can't log in, delete your arp cache and try again", > and the workaround helped tremendously. > > It wasn't long before he came back to me saying "they said they fixed > it", and I tested, and sure enough, no more false proxy arp! > > Thank you, TiBook and open source software (and to everyone who has > explained IP packets to me in my lifetime :-). > > Obligatory plug - if you want someone clever like me working for your > organization, I'm a bit hungry right now... make me an offer. > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 > > Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Mar 1 06:38:11 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h21EcBE21399 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 06:38:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 09:38:03 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: [SAGE] load average for I/O queue From: "Mark R. Lindsey" To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <6855BBDD-4BF3-11D7-B695-0003931CFFFE@acm.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk It seems that the conventional uptime-type load average indicates the length of the scheduler's queue of runnable processes; does this also include processes that have been stopped waiting for an I/O system call to return? If not, is there a common way to gauge how many processes are waiting on I/O? I'm trying to figure out how to determine the load of my disk I/O. Thanks. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Mar 1 06:51:13 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h21EpD621680 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 06:51:13 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [199.222.167.101] From: "Scott Frost" To: yves@zioup.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] How to change the group id on a veritas Disk Group Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 14:51:06 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2003 14:51:06.0609 (UTC) FILETIME=[FD1F9610:01C2E001] X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Yves, Try doing a man on the vxprivutil in veritas. It's a hidden command that can change ID's etc. This should get you what you need. Thanks, Scott Frost >From: Yves Dorfsman >To: sage-members@usenix.org >Subject: [SAGE] How to change the group id on a veritas Disk Group >Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:07:38 -0700 (MST) > > >Hi, > >I am running in a bit of a problem here. We have an EMC Symetrix, two >hosts plugged to it (actually more, but only two are relevant here), one >for prod, one for pre-prod. > >We use the EMC BCV technology to copy the disks from prod to pre-prod. EMC >BCV is a physical copy of the disks. > >We have on big database on prod, but need two separate copies of it in >pre-prod. For some (valid) reason, we HAVE TO use veritas filesystem and >lvm. The problem we run into here, is that both copies of prod are >physical copies of pre-prod, therefore I can "vxdg import" only one of >them at a time, even though when I rename the disk group. It looks like >the problem is that even when you rename the disk group, the disk group ID >doesn't change. > >Anybody has run into this ? How did you solve it ? >Or.... Any idea on how to change the DG ID on a veritas dg ? > > >Thanks, > > >Yves. >PS: I do have a call open with veritas on this, just wondered if somebody >had ran into the same problem, and could offer some ideas. >---- >Yves Dorfsman yves@zioup.com > http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~dorfsmay > http://www.SollerS.ca _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Mar 1 07:14:07 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h21FE7j22026 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 07:14:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: krabbtop.int.diraba.de: bb set sender to gabriel.krabbe@dab.com using -f Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 16:09:40 +0100 From: Gabriel Krabbe To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] load average for I/O queue Message-ID: <20030301150940.GN23718@idefix.rtfs.de> References: <6855BBDD-4BF3-11D7-B695-0003931CFFFE@acm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6855BBDD-4BF3-11D7-B695-0003931CFFFE@acm.org> Organization: rtfs IT Services X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Mar 01, 2003 at 09:38:03AM -0500, Mark R. Lindsey wrote: > It seems that the conventional uptime-type load average indicates the > length of the scheduler's queue of runnable processes; does this also > include processes that have been stopped waiting for an I/O system call > to return? > > If not, is there a common way to gauge how many processes are waiting > on I/O? I'm trying to figure out how to determine the load of my disk > I/O. You don't mention which OS. Solaris brings a couple of performance-measuring tools that give you pretty much any level of detail. "vmstat", "b" column - processes blocked; "iostat" - actual disk activity; "sar" - most of everything, depending on what you're looking for. A process that's blocked on I/O is specifically not runnable - all it'd do with the CPU time would be to wait. With that last sentence of yours, you're probably trying to identify bootlenecks. "vmstat -xnz 3" gives a good overview of how busy any disks that are actually doing anything really are. If you're on Solaris, I recommend Peter Baer Galvin's tutorial on Solaris Tuning ("Advanced Solaris System Administration Topics"). He held it at a number of conferences over the last years, check whether it'll be available at the upcoming Annual Tech or LISA conferences (plug, plug); he covers this and many other interesting aspects. If you're not on Solaris, well, Linux has a "vmstat" command, I have no idea about others. Gabe From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Mar 1 07:35:24 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h21FZNq22333 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 07:35:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 09:35:07 -0600 From: Scott Wunsch To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Failing over from one mail proxy to another Message-ID: <20030301153507.GA427@zagadka.wunsch.org> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <20030228190559.R30052@gwyn.tux.org> <20030228201631.V30052@gwyn.tux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030228201631.V30052@gwyn.tux.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-PGP-Fingerprint: 57C6 CF0D 302E E52E D231 649A 7B5D 0964 1F94 B9C3 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 28-Feb-2003 at 20:16:31 -0500, Joseph S D Yao wrote: > Early responses remind me that, once a mailertable entry is chosen, > 'sendmail' will still [unless instructed not to] look for MX records for =2E.. > Hmmm. But what happens at the firewalls to the public Internet? They > look at internal DNS first, so that they won't try to deliver internal So you set up a zone specifically for this. For example, couldn't you have a sendmail mailertable entry telling it to send mail to "them-mail-gw.them.us.org", which would be a DNS name that exists only to have MX records pointing to the proxy first, and the Internet second? Or am I missing some added complexity here? --=20 Take care, Scott \\'unsch =2E.. There are two ways to spread light: To be candle, or the mirror. --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: Digitally signed iD8DBQE+YNMre10JZB+UucMRAibdAKCKp+lC3YDXc8ynrcy4kqDsO+jbOwCgzNLj 6eEOND6X7KXOMIfh5xjS7Fc= =0Q7z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Mar 1 08:13:25 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h21GDOq22752 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 08:13:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] How to change the group id on a veritas Disk Group From: Mark McCullough To: Yves Dorfsman Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-bjn28Th1AayfIYbUPtBs" Organization: Message-Id: <1046535197.1355.7.camel@starfury> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 Date: 01 Mar 2003 10:13:18 -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --=-bjn28Th1AayfIYbUPtBs Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FlashSnap. We are working on a similar setup and ran into a similar problem. EMC wanted us to use TimeFinder until Veritas indicated that we would have to modify the disk IDs and that was an unsupported procedure that "would probably work". We elected instead to obtain the FlashSnap product with disk group split. =20 In your case, I would look at splitting the disk group (which is a supported Veritas product) so that BCV1 and BCV2 are now separate disk groups and thus can both be imported at the same time on any host. Then when you need to rejoin the two BCVs on system 1, you can merge the disk groups of the BCVs and using flashsnap quickly reintegrate the BCVs back into the standard image. On Fri, 2003-02-28 at 17:07, Yves Dorfsman wrote: > Hi, >=20 > I am running in a bit of a problem here. We have an EMC Symetrix, two > hosts plugged to it (actually more, but only two are relevant here), one > for prod, one for pre-prod. >=20 > We use the EMC BCV technology to copy the disks from prod to pre-prod. EM= C > BCV is a physical copy of the disks. >=20 > We have on big database on prod, but need two separate copies of it in > pre-prod. For some (valid) reason, we HAVE TO use veritas filesystem and > lvm. The problem we run into here, is that both copies of prod are > physical copies of pre-prod, therefore I can "vxdg import" only one of > them at a time, even though when I rename the disk group. It looks like > the problem is that even when you rename the disk group, the disk group I= D > doesn't change. >=20 > Anybody has run into this ? How did you solve it ? > Or.... Any idea on how to change the DG ID on a veritas dg ? >=20 >=20 > Thanks, >=20 >=20 > Yves. > PS: I do have a call open with veritas on this, just wondered if somebody > had ran into the same problem, and could offer some ideas. > ---- > Yves Dorfsman yves@zioup.com > http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~dorfsmay > http://www.SollerS.ca --=20 mmccul@earthlink.net Mark McCullough "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that=20 we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only=20 unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American=20 public." (Theodore Roosevelt, 1918) --=-bjn28Th1AayfIYbUPtBs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQA+YNwdLt0nxEAuAy8RAjyDAJ0eN41PsB4Bhn0aNIj7rzMDahYWwwCgv+jP ATJfsECkPbOQSOK9QpNRrV0= =ZrpQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-bjn28Th1AayfIYbUPtBs-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Mar 1 11:40:14 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h21JeD524501 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 11:40:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 14:40:10 -0500 From: Tom Limoncelli To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: ges@lumeta.com, tal@lumeta.com Subject: Re: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows Message-ID: <20030301144010.A1314@joisey.whatexit.org> References: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org>; from tal@whatexit.org on Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 09:25:53AM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Thanks for all the replies! The solution we figured out was to rsync without ssh, rsh or anything! While I usually use rsync as a replacement for "rcp -r", I forgot that if you specify 2 local paths, it works more like "cp -r". We mounted the data as a Y: drive (as I said, the FreeBSD server runs Samba) and did: rsync -av /cygdrive/y/foo/bar/. bar/. Now instead of piping things through "ssh server rsync --server" we let the native OS do the dirty work of getting the data from the server. Thank god Win2K doesn't waste any resources by doing stupid things like caching network data ;-). In this case, it's a win for me. Cygwin seems to be really slow at doing pipes. If my understanding of how VMS works is correct, I can see how NT would be slow in that department. Getting rid of the pipe to ssh, and ssh's dialog through cygwin's slow sockets-to-winsock translator, was a big win. ssh was spending a lot of time doing encryption. As people mentioned, that's a waste of time in this situation. Someone suggested that we generate the data on the NTFS disk. That'd be nice but this is a month-long process involving a bunch of UNIX servers. We couldn't port it all to NTFS, or deal with the slower speed of a NTFS file server. Though, the ultimate solution will result in no copying at all (we bring the data to the NTFS host so we can burn it onto a DVD-ROM. Ultimately we will have a DVD burner on the UNIX system.) Yes, there are many individual files, but copying them all as a tar-ball would just mean a 30-minute untar at the end. The benefit of rsync is that we can push last-minute updates quickly (30 minutes of walking the directory tree plus a 2 second copy is faster than another 4 hour copy). I did some calculations, and found that optimal time would be around 3-4 hours on an 100M Ethernet. So setting my expectations to half a day (half a business day) is actually reasonable. It's better to know how long something will take than to sit there being frustrated without knowing how long it will take. It also justifies Gig-E for future architectures if we can't eliminate the copying step. --tal -- Tom Limoncelli -- tal@whatexit.org http://whatexit.org/tal http://www.EverythingSysadmin.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Mar 1 18:42:30 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h222gUP26882 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 18:42:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 21:42:17 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "David N. Blank-Edelman" To: Tom Limoncelli Cc: sage-members@usenix.org, ges@lumeta.com, tal@lumeta.com Subject: Re: [SAGE] Copying a lot of files from UNIX to Windows In-Reply-To: <20030301144010.A1314@joisey.whatexit.org> Message-ID: References: <20030228092553.B10865@joisey.whatexit.org> <20030301144010.A1314@joisey.whatexit.org> X-X-Sender: dnb@imap.ccs.neu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 1 Mar 2003, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > We mounted the data as a Y: drive (as I said, the FreeBSD server runs > Samba) and did: > > rsync -av /cygdrive/y/foo/bar/. bar/. One quick tip: if you are doing this (essentially a local copy over network file systems), you will definitely want to turn off the block-level checksumming (add -W). If you don't, you are pulling the data over the wire more times than you really need. -- dNb From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Mar 1 22:41:15 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h226fEO00807 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 22:41:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 01:41:05 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030302064105.GA20102@snew.com> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <9596.1046453727@workofstone.com> <863cm77pdm.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <863cm77pdm.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Randal L. Schwartz (merlyn@stonehenge.com): > >>>>> "Sean" == Sean J Schluntz writes: > >> What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? ... > And on top of that, having access to powerful open-source tools > through fink (think "apt-get" for the mac) lets me do cool fieldwork. > > Case in point... > > On the most recent Geek Cruise (www.geekcruises.com), we were out at > sea, using the 802.11 wireless accesspoint to the satellite, so that > we could still get T-1 speeds without a spec of land in sight. > > Strangely, about a third of the time, people were unable to connect, ... > (.10), which ethereal identified as having a cisco MACaddr. I drag > the log on my laptop over to the internet cafe manager (who was not > brilliant, but knew enough not to question me :-), and say "there's a Good lord, The nightmare it must be to be the system admin on a board when a "geek cruise" takes over.... I'd also take this moment to mention that the netbsd pkgsrc (same as freebsd/openbsd /usr/ports/) works for NeXTStep^WMac OS X as well as on Solaris. "openports" seemed a good idea - why have 3 duplicate efforts, but doesn't seem to have really taken over any of the BSD's yet. It's a pity and a waste. But if pkgsrc is doing that, then great. Alternative to fink: netbsd pkgsrc. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Mar 1 23:06:28 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h2276Sn01159 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 23:06:28 -0800 (PST) To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Packaging tools for MacOS X, Solaris etc. Reply-To: "Sean J. Schluntz" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 02 Mar 2003 01:41:05 EST." <20030302064105.GA20102@snew.com> Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 23:06:22 -0800 Message-ID: <12222.1046588782@workofstone.com> From: "Sean J. Schluntz" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >I'd also take this moment to mention that the netbsd pkgsrc (same >as freebsd/openbsd /usr/ports/) works for NeXTStep^WMac OS X >as well as on Solaris. > >"openports" seemed a good idea - why have 3 duplicate efforts, but >doesn't seem to have really taken over any of the BSD's yet. >It's a pity and a waste. But if pkgsrc is doing that, then great. > >Alternative to fink: netbsd pkgsrc. The NetBSD pkgsrc tools are what I use on the OSX systems here, anoncvs the updates and run the version checker and it lets you know which packages have updates available. Very handy system, and you can choose where the packages go. One downside, the pkgsrc system requires a UFS file system to build on. Not a big deal, I do my builds on a UFS disk image and then copy the tree over to the HFS+ filesystem and all is happy. -Sean From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 00:40:23 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h228eMb01761 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 00:40:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 03:40:19 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030302084019.GD20102@snew.com> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org References: <20030228165503.GV11074@loopback.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030228165503.GV11074@loopback.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Is this like the Scratch Monkey? Quoting Bryan C. Andregg (bandregg@loopback.net): > Human Patient Simulator. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 00:45:14 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h228jEL02000 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 00:45:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 03:45:11 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: Sage-Members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030302084511.GE20102@snew.com> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , Sage-Members@usenix.org References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <28560000.1046461797@jxh.mirapoint.com> <1046466445.1764.13.camel@Narsil> <46000000.1046471963@jxh.mirapoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <46000000.1046471963@jxh.mirapoint.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Jim Hickstein (jxh@jxh.com): > >>Not that I [deleted] to this viewpoint [...] > > Will everyone who quotes my original message please refrain from > duplicating that deleted word up there? I'm told it's giving Majordomo > some difficulty. A moment's thought should make it clear just why. (The > moderator has been dealing with this, and not complaining, but I felt I > should say something.) well, m-domo 2 will be out by 1998 or so :) and perhaps have a better suscbribee detection schema. One figures that with emacs and lisp, we should be able to have more smarts. It's a Bad Thing that the "Su sbcrib e" looking work and >From without a > is unallowed in email. I'm doing HTML mail only from now. So how to I make vi and mutt do html mail... From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 06:05:36 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h22E5ai24838 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 06:05:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 21:10:24 +0800 From: Ng Pheng Siong To: David Alban Cc: sage-members@usenix.org, Sweth Chandramouli Subject: Re: [SAGE] Valicert Secure Transport Message-ID: <20030302131024.GA1027@vista.netmemetic.com> References: <20030228155113.A5438@gerasimov.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030228155113.A5438@gerasimov.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 03:51:13PM -0800, David Alban wrote: > --- Forwarded message from Sweth Chandramouli ----- > Anyone got any experience with the above, or know of anyone > who does? I've got to make a decision on whether to drop $50k on it by > Monday, and while the sales droids make it sound like exactly what I > need, I'd like an objective opinion. (Well, what I'd really like is a > week to play with the demo version of it, but apparently I'm not going > to have that luxury...) It is supposedly an FTP/TLS implementation. If FTP/TLS is what you want, see other possibilities here: http://www.ford-hutchinson.com/~fh-1-pfh/ftps-ext.html HTH. -- Ng Pheng Siong http://firewall.rulemaker.net -+- Improve Your Firewall Operation ROI http://www.post1.com/home/ngps -+- Open Source Python Crypto & SSL From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 08:45:55 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h22Gjt225716 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 08:45:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030301184159.0572d7f8@mail.puryear-it.com> X-Sender: dpuryear@pop.netaddress.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 18:43:24 -0600 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Dustin Puryear Subject: [SAGE] System administration a scam? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - nitrogen.nocdirect.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - usenix.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - usa.net X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I was reading the recent email sent out by SAGE and noticed something said that I have never before experienced: "Furthermore, the perception that computers run themselves and that administrators are a 'necessary evil' or, worse, some kind of a scam." Has anyone actually been in this kind of environment? --- Dustin Puryear Puryear Information Technology Windows, UNIX, and IT Consulting http://www.puryear-it.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 09:13:36 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h22HDaQ26084 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 09:13:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E623BAB.CEB8D1EF@deaddrop.org> Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 09:13:15 -0800 From: Etaoin Shrdlu Organization: I am Chaos. I am alive, and I tell you that you are Free. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; OpenBSD 2.6 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Usenix Sage Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030301184159.0572d7f8@mail.puryear-it.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Dustin Puryear wrote: > > I was reading the recent email sent out by SAGE and noticed something said > that I have never before experienced: "Furthermore, the perception that > computers run themselves and that administrators are a 'necessary evil' or, > worse, some kind of a scam." Has anyone actually been in this kind of > environment? Please. I see it every day. I see it at other companies, when I travel, and where I work as well. The pervasiveness of the desktop computer for home use has given a lot of folk the false impression that it's easy. Their systems at home may be networked together, perhaps they've installed a little Red Hat here, a little SuSe there, and they're all experts. They scare me to death. -- This blackhat thing looks like a honeypot a little. Or like a meeting of nuns and hookers to discuss sex. Georgi Guninski From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 09:36:48 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h22Hamh26424 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 09:36:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 12:41:46 -0500 From: Jan Schaumann To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030302174146.GB22383@netmeister.org> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <9596.1046453727@workofstone.com> <863cm77pdm.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <20030302064105.GA20102@snew.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030302064105.GA20102@snew.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Chuck Yerkes wrote: > I'd also take this moment to mention that the netbsd pkgsrc (same > as freebsd/openbsd /usr/ports/) works for NeXTStep^WMac OS X > as well as on Solaris. Just to nitpick: NetBSD's pkgsrc is not the "same" as Free- or OpenBSD's ports collection, but certainly similar. NetBSD has made several changes to the FreeBSD ports-mechanism, as I'm sure OpenBSD has made changes when they split off NetBSD. Also, it's available for Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD (if you prefer pkgsrc over their ports system -- it will happily co-exist, though!) and basic support for Irix is in the works. > Alternative to fink: netbsd pkgsrc. http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/software/packages.html :-) -Jan -- I always said there was something fundamentally wrong with the universe. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 09:40:14 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h22HeDj26686 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 09:40:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? From: "Brandon S. Allbery "KF8NH To: Dustin Puryear Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030301184159.0572d7f8@mail.puryear-it.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030301184159.0572d7f8@mail.puryear-it.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1046626807.20498.4.camel@rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 Date: 02 Mar 2003 12:40:07 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2003-03-01 at 19:43, Dustin Puryear wrote: > I was reading the recent email sent out by SAGE and noticed something said > that I have never before experienced: "Furthermore, the perception that > computers run themselves and that administrators are a 'necessary evil' or, > worse, some kind of a scam." Has anyone actually been in this kind of > environment? I've certainly been in more than one situation where it was considered a "necessary evil". (Some of it is just the mindset that some MBA types have, that anything that doesn't directly contribute to the bottom line is unnecessary overhead.) -- brandon s allbery [openafs/solaris/japh/freebsd] allbery@kf8nh.apk.net system administrator [linux/heimdal/too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering KF8NH carnegie mellon university [better check the oblivious first -ke6sls] From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 09:51:07 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h22Hp7S27003 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 09:51:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 09:51:03 -0800 (PST) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <200303021751.h22Hp3M0022109@bunrab.catwhisker.org> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030301184159.0572d7f8@mail.puryear-it.com> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 18:43:24 -0600 >From: Dustin Puryear >I was reading the recent email sent out by SAGE and noticed something said >that I have never before experienced: "Furthermore, the perception that >computers run themselves and that administrators are a 'necessary evil' or, >worse, some kind of a scam." Has anyone actually been in this kind of >environment? Perhaps not quite to the extent the above phrasing would suggest, but certainly in every company where I've worked where the income derived from activities that involved computing but incidentally (at most), it has been made quite clear that I was part of a "cost center" (as opposed to a "profit center"), and that my colleagues and I were thus pure overhead (as far as upper management was concerned). [Note: much of this was when I was an MVS "systems programmer".] Add to that that a significant part of the population has trouble understanding what an admin does. (I've tried explaining to Dad that I help folks use computers better. I strongly suspect he still doesn't "get it".) Further, I have read of attempts to market certain types of systems as "not needing" a sysadmin. The first of these that I recall was IBM's S/3; I was working at a place where one of these was the computer (note singular), and I ended up doing "systems-level" stuff even though IBM marketed the system as "not needing" that sort of attention. (This would have been from 1975 - 1980.) Cheers, david (links to my resume at http://www.catwhisker.org/~david) -- David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org WARNING: Use of Microsoft products may be hazardous to your system's integrity. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 10:03:40 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h22I3ee27321 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 10:03:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20030302180338.54993.qmail@web10504.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 10:03:38 -0800 (PST) From: Dark Tachyon Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? To: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk 1) The espresso machine. 2) After using DiskSuite again recently, I am reminded how much I love Veritas Volume Manager. 3) The HP XP512 and the SAN it is on. There is whole new bag of worms in managing disk on a SAN, but I love worms too. I can't imagine going back to independently attached, finite disk arrays ever again. Why am I using DiskSuite when I usually use Veritas? Because I am building a little E450 to send to Australia for a short term project. The internal disk will act as an application cache while data comes over the Pacific back the SAN. Ren --- Benjamin Feen wrote: > It's been a while since I've asked a random question > on sage-members, so > here goes: > > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? > > Interpret the question any way you want. > > -- > Benjamin Feen > benjamin(AT)feen.com > http://www.monkeybagel.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 10:12:38 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h22ICcM27600 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 10:12:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E62498D.5000000@ryu.com> Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 12:12:29 -0600 From: "John R. S. Mascio" Reply-To: mascio@ryu.com Organization: Ryu Enterprises User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020508 Netscape6/6.2.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030301184159.0572d7f8@mail.puryear-it.com> <1046626807.20498.4.camel@rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Yes, I've dealt with that mindset. Systems Managers and other related personnel are a "necessary evil" to be minimized, and eliminated when possible... And so is the electric bill and anyone over 1st level management! As with all operational costs, you should look at the value that the company pays for. And this is true of any component of a business. The problem is, what we do is 2nd or 3rd order in effect. What I do today, does not necessarily show in the bottom line tomorrow, in any direct fashion. But what I do can potentially make drastic effects to the bottom line, over time. The problem is, you do your job well, your people are productive and the company is profitable, then you are just "invisible" as everyone focuses on their jobs. Do your job bad, well, here comes trouble. I think that those who do not understand what we do, this "Invisible or in trouble" problem causes them to see us as that ""necessary evil". For those that take business seriously, you can educate them as to error of this thought. For those that feel that "business men are superior entities", you will probably never convince them. They've already make up their minds and convinced themselves of their correctness. So the real trick, is to gather the metrics and positive press on systems management and its value. Then make sure this data is disseminated thought the company, appropriately, to build positive support for your organization as something of value to the company. And it works. I worked for a company that when the management of engineering was brought in to a meeting with the VP to decide who was to be laid off, the managers said: "You will leave engineering operations alone" (The systems management group for the R&D arm.) The VP looked at them and said, you realize that if the decision was to let someone in that group go, but not doing it, means you may loose someone else in your group? And the managers all said, yes, they understood, but the value of eng. ops. was too great to cut an already lean-and-mean group. This is getting long, so I'll shut up for the time being! ;-) BTW: I'm almost done with my MBA to tackle this exact type of problem. I may become less technical over time, as I become more managerial, but there are becoming more and more of us in the management ranks because we see the value of what we do and want to make sure it is done right, for the next generation of systems managers. JRSM -- _ | John Raymond Stone Mascio _|_|_) | mascio@ryu.com (_|_| | 214.725.7518 | 972.240.5040 >^. .^< >^..^< ----------------------------------------------------------------- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 10:28:25 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h22ISOg27909 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 10:28:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20030302182823.70858.qmail@web10505.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 10:28:23 -0800 (PST) From: Dark Tachyon Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? To: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <20030228152951.GA7845@corp.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Good one! For even what I might think is too obscure of an error I can google for a solution and usually find the answer or a good hint to solving the problem. Not to mention hitting vendor's online documentation/knowledge bases for answers anywhere/anytime. Very cool. Ren --- Alex Tsalolikhin wrote: > > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily > work? > > The Internet!! > > Alex > -- > Alex Tsalolikhin > +1-626-296-5479 > Sr. Internet UNIX Sys Admin > eesti@corp.earthlink.net > Graveyard Shift, Pasadena > EarthLink, Inc. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 11:50:34 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h22JoYq28565 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 11:50:34 -0800 (PST) From: Thomas.Leyer@infineon.com To: darktachyon@yahoo.com, sage-members@usenix.org Message-ID: <93659FED3BE2D411A92400508BAD48BB02172A56@mchp542a.muc.infineon.com> Subject: AW: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 20:50:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id h22JoXr28562 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Do you have google or former dejanews in mind? dejanews was and is one of my favorite tools... Thom -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Dark Tachyon [mailto:darktachyon@yahoo.com] Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. März 2003 19:28 An: sage-members@usenix.org Betreff: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Good one! For even what I might think is too obscure of an error I can google for a solution and usually find the answer or a good hint to solving the problem. Not to mention hitting vendor's online documentation/knowledge bases for answers anywhere/anytime. Very cool. Ren --- Alex Tsalolikhin wrote: > > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily > work? > > The Internet!! > > Alex > -- > Alex Tsalolikhin > +1-626-296-5479 > Sr. Internet UNIX Sys Admin > eesti@corp.earthlink.net > Graveyard Shift, Pasadena > EarthLink, Inc. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 12:03:46 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h22K3kh28851 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 12:03:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 14:03:31 -0600 From: Scott Wunsch To: Sage-Members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030302200331.GB1642@zagadka.wunsch.org> Mail-Followup-To: Sage-Members@usenix.org References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <28560000.1046461797@jxh.mirapoint.com> <1046466445.1764.13.camel@Narsil> <46000000.1046471963@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030302084511.GE20102@snew.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GID0FwUMdk1T2AWN" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030302084511.GE20102@snew.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-PGP-Fingerprint: 57C6 CF0D 302E E52E D231 649A 7B5D 0964 1F94 B9C3 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --GID0FwUMdk1T2AWN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 02-Mar-2003 at 03:45:11 -0500, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > So how to I make vi and mutt do html mail... Type the raw HTML you want in vi, and then when you get back to mutt, hit ^T to change the MIME type of your message to text/html. That's it! Oh wait, you weren't actually serious, were you? :-) --=20 Take care, Scott \\'unsch =2E.. All true wisdom is found on T-shirts. --GID0FwUMdk1T2AWN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: Digitally signed iD8DBQE+YmOTe10JZB+UucMRAuCPAJsH/hbVAN5yQ2ScaKJRji/Lhgy2pgCg6vNR eO1e3ibaNP7m1uCo26jYMWI= =ixq4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --GID0FwUMdk1T2AWN-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 13:33:47 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h22LXlb29615 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 13:33:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20030302213346.68659.qmail@web10501.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 13:33:46 -0800 (PST) From: Dark Tachyon Subject: Re: AW: [SAGE] Coolest thing? To: Thomas.Leyer@infineon.com, sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <93659FED3BE2D411A92400508BAD48BB02172A56@mchp542a.muc.infineon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Ah...dejanews. That was the best web-based usenet tool. Now I use the google gobbled dejanews and regular google. Regular google pulls out pages from numerous lists, so it can a handy way to drop right into a relevant thread. Maybe there's better things out there now that I've been too lazy to find? Ren --- Thomas.Leyer@infineon.com wrote: > > Do you have google or former dejanews in mind? > > dejanews was and is one of my favorite tools... > > Thom > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Dark Tachyon [mailto:darktachyon@yahoo.com] > Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. März 2003 19:28 > An: sage-members@usenix.org > Betreff: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? > > > Good one! For even what I might think is too obscure > of an error I can google for a solution and usually > find the answer or a good hint to solving the > problem. > Not to mention hitting vendor's online > documentation/knowledge bases for answers > anywhere/anytime. Very cool. > > Ren > > --- Alex Tsalolikhin > wrote: > > > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily > > work? > > > > The Internet!! > > > > Alex > > -- > > Alex Tsalolikhin > > +1-626-296-5479 > > Sr. Internet UNIX Sys Admin > > eesti@corp.earthlink.net > > Graveyard Shift, Pasadena > > EarthLink, Inc. > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 15:37:07 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h22Nb7t00803 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 15:37:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E629590.5080302@aos.net.au> Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 10:36:48 +1100 From: Sam Johnston User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Wolfskill CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? References: <200303021751.h22Hp3M0022109@bunrab.catwhisker.org> In-Reply-To: <200303021751.h22Hp3M0022109@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk David Wolfskill wrote: >Further, I have read of attempts to market certain types of systems as >"not needing" a sysadmin. The first of these that I recall was IBM's >S/3; I was working at a place where one of these was the computer (note >singular), and I ended up doing "systems-level" stuff even though IBM >marketed the system as "not needing" that sort of attention. (This >would have been from 1975 - 1980.) > http://www.google.com.au/search?q=autonomic+computing ? From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 17:17:45 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h231Hjk01691 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 17:17:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:19:38 +0800 From: Ng Pheng Siong To: David Wolfskill Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? Message-ID: <20030303011938.GA11530@vista.netmemetic.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030301184159.0572d7f8@mail.puryear-it.com> <200303021751.h22Hp3M0022109@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200303021751.h22Hp3M0022109@bunrab.catwhisker.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Mar 02, 2003 at 09:51:03AM -0800, David Wolfskill wrote: > Perhaps not quite to the extent the above phrasing would suggest, but > certainly in every company where I've worked where the income derived > from activities that involved computing but incidentally (at most), > it has been made quite clear that I was part of a "cost center" (as > opposed to a "profit center"), and that my colleagues and I were thus > pure overhead (as far as upper management was concerned). [Note: much > of this was when I was an MVS "systems programmer".] Become a profit centre: Become a system administration outsource business. The customer focuses on the core activities that make money for his business. The system administration outsourcer focuses on the core activities that make money for _this_ business, which is to run the customer's systems well. Some other people might focus on supporting the system administration outsourcer industry, say, by providing commercial support and development for system administration tools (open source or not). There, roadmap to professional and financial system administration success. -- Ng Pheng Siong http://firewall.rulemaker.net -+- Improve Your Firewall Operation ROI http://www.post1.com/home/ngps -+- Open Source Python Crypto & SSL From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 17:58:57 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h231wuw02142 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 17:58:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 20:58:31 -0500 From: Scott Orr Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? To: sage-members@usenix.org Message-id: <3E62B6C7.5D63229D@cs.iupui.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030301184159.0572d7f8@mail.puryear-it.com> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > "Furthermore, the perception that > computers run themselves and that administrators are a 'necessary evil' or, > worse, some kind of a scam." Has anyone actually been in this kind of > environment? Not in so many words. More common is that many of our faculty (science and engineering) "think they know almost all there is to know about computer administration since they have performed some trivial task." Bascially they sould have full control over their desktop but if there is a problem, we should come in and fix it, even if it involves a home system (because they work at home too). We are a very decentralized group so the sysadmins in most departments have become little more than firefighters. They fix the same systems over and over again, never having time to build a robust infrastructure. That leaves the rest of us with an uphill battle every time support issues come up. Scott -- Scott Orr sorr@cs.iupui.edu Dept of Comp & Info Science, IUPUI Phone: (317) 274-9734 723 W. Michigan St Fax: (317) 274-9742 Indianapolis, IN 46202-5132 http://www.cs.iupui.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Sherlock Holmes From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 19:59:30 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h233xUb02997 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 19:59:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20030303035928.90555.qmail@web10508.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 19:59:28 -0800 (PST) From: Dark Tachyon Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? To: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <3E62B6C7.5D63229D@cs.iupui.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This was just the case for me at one of the DOE National Labs. There were three of us dedicated to one Division, but that Division was huge and populated with PhDs who programmed Crays. Most of them had root and many of the departments had their own sysadmin who would call us when things broke, which was often. What has also been dangerous for me was the manager at this lab who summed up all systems as being the same if they ran the same OS (disregarding version, kind or number of services being run on it, hardware variation, interaction between different OSes, and perhaps worst of all, the fact that many users had root) to arrive at the conclusion that we should each be able to support 50 or so systems each. So why did we think we needed another FTE? That is when you know it is time to collect data and run some intelligent metrics based analyses before someone else does it poorly for you. Ren --- Scott Orr wrote: > Not in so many words. More common is that many of > our faculty (science > and engineering) "think they know almost all there > is to know about > computer administration since they have performed > some trivial task." Bascially they sould have full > control over their > desktop but if there is a problem, we should come in > and fix it, even if > it involves a home system (because they work at home > too). We are a very > decentralized group so the sysadmins in most > departments have become > little more than firefighters. They fix the same > systems over and over > again, never having time to build a robust > infrastructure. That leaves > the rest of us with an uphill battle every time > support issues come up. > > Scott > -- > Scott Orr > sorr@cs.iupui.edu > Dept of Comp & Info Science, IUPUI Phone: > (317) 274-9734 > 723 W. Michigan St Fax: > (317) 274-9742 > Indianapolis, IN 46202-5132 > http://www.cs.iupui.edu > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever > remains, > however improbable, must be the truth. -Sherlock Holmes __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 21:04:52 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h2354qL03625 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 21:04:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 21:04:50 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: sage-members@sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] The experience chicken and egg problem Message-ID: <20030302210450.A55531@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@sage.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from jo2y@midnightlinux.com on Tue, Jun 18, 2002 at 06:25:07AM -0400 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jun 18, 2002 at 06:25:07AM -0400, James O'Kane wrote: > Does anyone have a suggestion on how to get experience without having a > job? > > My case in point. I would like more experience with SAN and NAS stuff. Too bad. You need *basic* *experience* first. Go look in the newspaper, your local college job board, and anywhere else hopeful. Look for ANYTHING that has your vague area of interest (aka OS), and apply for it. I got my first job by actually putting on my resume cover letter, "I may lack experience, but I work cheap". Being a startup, they hired me pretty durn quick ;-) [okay, it also helped that I had personal 'experience', or background if you like, as both a programmer and a sysadmin. Plus a CS degree.] FYI: within 1 month, I got a raise, I think. Within a year, they almost doubled my salary. So, get your foot in the door "somewhere". If you're good, you'll pick up experience soon enough. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 21:21:04 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h235L4i03927 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 21:21:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030302211607.00e5cf00@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: bhami@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 21:20:56 -0800 To: Ng Pheng Siong From: Bruce Hamilton Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <20030303011938.GA11530@vista.netmemetic.com> References: <200303021751.h22Hp3M0022109@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20030301184159.0572d7f8@mail.puryear-it.com> <200303021751.h22Hp3M0022109@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 09:19 AM 3/3/03 +0800, Ng Pheng Siong wrote: >Become a profit centre: Become a system administration outsource business. >... >There, roadmap to professional and financial system administration success. Nice theory, but please note that both small "boutique" sys admin houses like Collective and lumbering giants like EDS have been suffering mightily in the tech downturn and have had major layoffs. At this particular instant in history, I feel a lot safer being in-house in aerospace. --Bruce (Bruce Hamilton, Redondo Beach, CA) bhami@pobox.com http://bhami.com/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 2 21:39:17 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h235dH604224 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 21:39:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? From: "Brandon S. Allbery "KF8NH To: Bruce Hamilton Cc: Ng Pheng Siong , sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030302211607.00e5cf00@mail.earthlink.net> References: <200303021751.h22Hp3M0022109@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20030301184159.0572d7f8@mail.puryear-it.com> <200303021751.h22Hp3M0022109@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030302211607.00e5cf00@mail.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1046669950.20498.14.camel@rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 Date: 03 Mar 2003 00:39:11 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2003-03-03 at 00:20, Bruce Hamilton wrote: > At 09:19 AM 3/3/03 +0800, Ng Pheng Siong wrote: > > >Become a profit centre: Become a system administration outsource business. > >... > >There, roadmap to professional and financial system administration success. > > Nice theory, but please note that both small "boutique" sys admin houses > like Collective and lumbering giants like EDS have been suffering mightily > in the tech downturn and have had major layoffs. At this particular instant > in history, I feel a lot safer being in-house in aerospace. Agreed. I used to work for such a business; the sad fact is that companies are even less willing to pay for outsourced SA than for in-house SA staff, and the company folded in '96. And from the other side, my mom (an "administrative assistant", which de facto meant "secretary" where she worked) used to get an awful lot of SA stuff dumped in her lap because her company didn't want to pay for sysadmins. -- brandon s allbery [openafs/solaris/japh/freebsd] allbery@kf8nh.apk.net system administrator [linux/heimdal/too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering KF8NH carnegie mellon university [better check the oblivious first -ke6sls] From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 05:21:04 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h23DL3J27236 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 05:21:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 13:20:50 +0000 From: Ade Rixon To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030303132050.GE4379@trinity.fluff.org> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Home-Page: http://www.big.bubbles.btinternet.co.uk/ X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Finding out that one of your favourite utilities does even more than you suspected, via an option you were previously unaware of, is pretty cool: Today's: "less +F" as a replacement for "tail -f" - sidesteps ESC-sequence injections to your terminal and provides backtracking as a bonus! Recent: df/du/ls -h (Linux, Solaris 9, others?) - simple but effective. If you're debugging or monitoring a web application, curl and/or wget are extremely cool. WebSphere most definitely isn't. Ade_ / -- |Ade Rixon|| http://www.big.bubbles.btinternet.co.uk/ || ade.rixon@bigfoot.com | "I'd show you my alleys, we'd have real adventures, You take off your clothes, I'll take out my dentures" - "You Need Me", The Frantics From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 05:59:20 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h23DxKf27659 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 05:59:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:59:12 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Lamourine X-Sender: mark@wol.lamourine.org To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-Reply-To: <20030303132050.GE4379@trinity.fluff.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Since no one's mentioned it, and I (re) learned it only last fall, I'll pipe up with 'tsort(1)' and it's variations. I know, I know tsort's been around a long time and I used it forever when working with SunOS 4 and lots of the older BSD OS's when creating libraries. My math background isn't the best, so if someone told me what a "Topological Sort" was, I must have missed it. Since then I'd forgotten about it, and I never really knew what it did besides "it sorts the entry points in the library". In the last few years I've had occasions to sort things based on a dependancy graph. I tried doing it by hand and was mostly successful, but I was dissatisfied with the inelegance of the results. Last fall Adam Moskowitz reminded me of tsort(1). It's not just useful for libraries! It takes a list of records 1 per line. Each record begins with the string to be sorted and a space separated list of dependancies. What it spits out is the list of initial strings sorted based on the dependancies. This is the perfect thing for ordering startup scripts (I think at least one of the BSDs does this). A co-worker also did this by hand ordering a set of perl modules used to install an OS. More recently I used a python implementation of tsort to sort a complex list of argument default settings to a script, where some of the defaults might depend on others having already been set. It occurs to me that this is how make(1) works, though I bet it doesn't call tsort(1) It's not a do-all and end-all, but it's one tool/trick in my bag that I've found repeatedly useful, but which I didn't learn (and no one else pointed out) in 20 years as a programmer and 15 as an SA. - Mark From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 07:10:10 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h23FAAf28379 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 07:10:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:10:06 -0600 From: "Mark D. Roth" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030303091006.A14498@yorktown.isdn.uiuc.edu> References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <20030303132050.GE4379@trinity.fluff.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030303132050.GE4379@trinity.fluff.org>; from ade.rixon@big-bubbles.fluff.org on Mon, Mar 03, 2003 at 01:20:50PM +0000 Organization: Feep Networks X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon Mar 03 13:20 2003 +0000, Ade Rixon wrote: > Finding out that one of your favourite utilities does even more than you > suspected, via an option you were previously unaware of, is pretty cool: There's an old saying that there are no two people that know the exact same subset of Unix commands. In my experience, that's definitely proven to be true. > If you're debugging or monitoring a web application, curl and/or wget are > extremely cool. WebSphere most definitely isn't. I usually just telnet to port 80 and type in the HTTP request by hand. For debugging HTTPS, "openssl s_client" lets me do the same thing. -- Mark D. Roth http://www.feep.net/~roth/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 08:11:30 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h23GBUF29137 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:11:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 23:56:02 +0800 From: Ng Pheng Siong To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Singapore members Message-ID: <20030303155602.GB28014@vista.netmemetic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I understand there are quite a number of Singapore SAGE members. Interested to meet up, have a drink and talk shop? Please drop me a mail. Thanks. Cheers. -- Ng Pheng Siong http://firewall.rulemaker.net -+- Improve Your Firewall Operation ROI http://www.post1.com/home/ngps -+- Open Source Python Crypto & SSL From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 09:05:53 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h23H5qN00187 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:05:52 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200303031705.MAA3237604@shell.TheWorld.com> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:05:46 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> from "Benjamin Feen" at Feb 27, 2003 03:35:10 PM From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Benjamin Feen asked: > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? ^^^^^^^ For me, in all senses of the word, my Herman Miller "Aeron" chair! Also, Keith Bostic's nvi, and the Korn/POSIX shell. Old and well-worn, to be sure, but they fit like broken-in shoes and I'm still amazed at how much I can get done with them. AdamM From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 09:25:21 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h23HPLr00708 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:25:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:25:07 -0800 From: Jeremy Mates To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030303172507.GB2129@darkness.sial.org> Mail-Followup-To: Jeremy Mates , sage-members@usenix.org References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <20030303132050.GE4379@trinity.fluff.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030303132050.GE4379@trinity.fluff.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk * Ade Rixon > Today's: "less +F" as a replacement for "tail -f" - sidesteps > ESC-sequence injections to your terminal and provides backtracking as > a bonus! Recent: df/du/ls -h (Linux, Solaris 9, others?) - simple but > effective. Not everything supports the -h "humanize the 472196992 kilobytes" option (rsync --stats, etc), which is why having a script that does the same can help: http://www.sial.org/code/perl/scripts/human.pl.html From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 10:19:24 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h23IJOj01771 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 10:19:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: stats.arches.uga.edu: rilke owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 13:16:38 -0500 (EST) From: rilke To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Anyone out there using a Fujitsu Lifebook? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I have been checking out the P2120. (It's specs may be viewed at http://webshop.fujitsupc.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buildseriesbean.do?series=P2) Is anyone out there using one of these? How do you like it? Battery life, performance, keyboard size? I know that everyone and their brother are buying Apple G4s. My work machine is a 15" iBook already, so I get my USRDA of MacOS already. I guess I'm just looking for feedback from folks with direct knowledge of this (or similar models). Gosh, I like the idea of being able to carry my laptop with me EVERYWHERE. I also think that it might make a cool impression with clients / potential employers. --Trey From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 10:29:15 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h23ITEV02336 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 10:29:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: stats.arches.uga.edu: rilke owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 13:24:12 -0500 (EST) From: rilke To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Job market?? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Unlike many, I am employed, although not in what I would consider to be an ideal environment. Considering the way the market's been lately I have laid off looking for something better. Call it apathy, call it laziness, call it being too pissed off at the entire process of selling oneself - whatever. I just know that I am going to need to move soon as claustrophobia is rapidly setting in. What is the general opinion of the job market? Has there been any perceivable bump in postings for the first quarter? What about those of you employed? Are you seeing any loosening of budgets at all? I guess what I'm asking boils down to: do you feel like things are getting better, staying the same, or worsening? Thanks! --Trey Darley From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 11:01:21 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h23J1KX03161 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:01:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 19:00:58 +0000 (UTC) From: Robert Hajime Lanning X-X-Sender: lanning@hamner.monsoonwind.com Reply-To: lanning@lanning.cc To: Ng Pheng Siong cc: David Wolfskill , "sage-members@usenix.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? In-Reply-To: <20030303011938.GA11530@vista.netmemetic.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, Ng Pheng Siong wrote: > Become a profit centre: Become a system administration outsource business. > > The customer focuses on the core activities that make money for his > business. > > The system administration outsourcer focuses on the core activities that > make money for _this_ business, which is to run the customer's systems well. > > Some other people might focus on supporting the system administration > outsourcer industry, say, by providing commercial support and development > for system administration tools (open source or not). > > There, roadmap to professional and financial system administration success. To the people (now directly your customers) that pay you, you are still a cost center. To the people that use the computers that you maintain, you are still the "nessesary evil". Shuffling the pieces around does not change the picture, it just confuses it. -- END OF LINE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 11:23:40 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h23JNe303810 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:23:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: goodall.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 13:23:25 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: rilke cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Job market?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.1 required=5.1 tests=CARRIAGE_RETURNS,IN_REP_TO,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02, SUPERLONG_LINE,TO_LOCALPART_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_PINE, X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.43 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, rilke wrote: > Unlike many, I am employed, although not in what I would consider to be an ideal environment. > Considering the way the market's been lately I have laid off looking for something better. Call it apathy, call it laziness, call it being too pissed off at the entire process of selling oneself - whatever. I just know that I am going to need to move soon as claustrophobia is rapidly setting in. > What is the general opinion of the job market? Has there been any perceivable bump in postings for the first quarter? > What about those of you employed? Are you seeing any loosening of budgets at all? > I guess what I'm asking boils down to: do you feel like things are getting better, staying the same, or worsening? > it depends. It seems to me that things are picking up as I just got a cold call from a tech recruiter a few weeks ago. Things in the DC area are really picking up it seems (outside of networking). Certain skillsets, particularly if you have a military clearance, are in quite a bit of demand. The feds are hiring and fed contractors and subcontractors are hiring. Fannie Mae is hiring. Others appear to be as well. The typical posting seems to be for somebody with 5+ (or 3-5) years of experience in particular disciplines. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 11:32:49 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h23JWmM04294 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:32:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <15971.44509.571821.414615@azazel.infersys.com> Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:32:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? In-Reply-To: <3E62B6C7.5D63229D@cs.iupui.edu> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030301184159.0572d7f8@mail.puryear-it.com> <3E62B6C7.5D63229D@cs.iupui.edu> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 12) "Portable Code" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smith X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk SO> More common is that many of our faculty (science and engineering) SO> "think they know almost all there is to know about computer SO> administration since they have performed some trivial task." Bascially SO> they sould have full control over their desktop but if there is a SO> problem, we should come in and fix it, even if it involves a home SO> system (because they work at home too). We are a very decentralized SO> group so the sysadmins in most departments have become little more SO> than firefighters. They fix the same systems over and over again, SO> never having time to build a robust infrastructure. That leaves the SO> rest of us with an uphill battle every time support issues come up. Yeah, this is a hard valley (pit? well?) to fight your way out of, but it can be done. One way to start is to try to carve out enough time to demonstrate The Better Way on a small scale. Science and engineering faculties are typically made up of pretty smart people, but they're also often skeptical, and likewise very nervous about changes to things that work (from their point of view)... But if you show them something that works better, and they use it and agree that it works better, they're reasonably likely to get on board. And if you can do it for one small group, word will spread, and others will start coming over to the New Way. Of course, if you try and fail, you just dig yourself in deeper, so you've gotta be careful to get it right the first time. Another hard part is answering the people who will keep saying "I need to be able to fiddle with my own box". The only answer that'll stick is if you can make it so they *don't* need to fiddle with their own box. We want to offer them a cookie-cutter solution that's easy for us to maintain, but if it doesn't do what they need, they're not going to care about how much more efficient we are. It's not easy, but we've had some success with it here at Caltech. Along the "necessary evil" lines, I think this is a hard perception to avoid, and it seems common to many professions that are largely about fixing things and solving problems. Aren't policemen, plumbers, auto mechanics, and doctors, all "necessary evils" in the same sense? No one wants to go to the doctor, but everyone understands why you need to have them around, and they're respected and admired professionals. (It's not quite the same, because a big part of our job, at least at the higher levels, is to create systems that fail less often; that's less true of, say, doctors. Still, a lot of our job will always be reactive, and it's hard to sell that side of the business as something that anyone wants to need more of.) -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 11:42:11 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h23JgBO04643 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:42:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E63A83B.DDC5F0E0@attbi.com> Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 14:08:44 -0500 From: Grace Rohrer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Job market?? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Status: R Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk rilke wrote: > > Unlike many, I am employed, although not in what I would consider to be an ideal environment. > Considering the way the market's been lately I have laid off looking for something better. Call it apathy, call it laziness, call it being too pissed off at the entire process of selling oneself - whatever. I just know that I am going to need to move soon as claustrophobia is rapidly setting in. > What is the general opinion of the job market? Has there been any perceivable bump in postings for the first quarter? > What about those of you employed? Are you seeing any loosening of budgets at all? > I guess what I'm asking boils down to: do you feel like things are getting better, staying the same, or worsening? > > Thanks! > > --Trey Darley I've been unemployed since July 2002, with Junior level sys admin skills. However, the market at my level seems to have picked up as of January, as there are more positions I feel I can apply for. My husband who is an Oracle Software Architect with 15 years experience had little luck from May 2001 to Jan 2003! However since January 4 or 5 head-hunters call per week. So things most certainly picked up for him. He has a contract now, but he did have to cut his consulting rate. One or another of my professors used to say, "A Professional is always looking." As long as the folks you work for, won't take it out on you if they know you are looking--KEEP LOOKING for something better! (In my case, I'm going to go back to school part time, and KEEP LOOKING for something better!) Grace http://home.attbi.com/~gfrohrer/Resume.htm From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 12:24:52 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h23KOqU05616 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:24:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:24:48 -0800 From: Jeremy Mates To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: System administration a scam? Message-ID: <20030303202448.GB7017@darkness.sial.org> Mail-Followup-To: Jeremy Mates , sage-members@usenix.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030301184159.0572d7f8@mail.puryear-it.com> <3E62B6C7.5D63229D@cs.iupui.edu> <15971.44509.571821.414615@azazel.infersys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15971.44509.571821.414615@azazel.infersys.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk * Josh Smith > Along the "necessary evil" lines, I think this is a hard perception to > avoid, and it seems common to many professions that are largely about > fixing things and solving problems. Aren't policemen, plumbers, auto > mechanics, and doctors, all "necessary evils" in the same sense? No > one wants to go to the doctor, but everyone understands why you need > to have them around, and they're respected and admired professionals. Some amount of firefighting is inevitable, though should be minimized through preventative/proactive administration. Good doctors ensure their patients develop healthy lifestyles years in advance, rather than waiting for the quadruple bypass to become necessary. That is, the causes of problems are fixed, not the symptoms. Very easy to say, but often hard to do. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 13:05:13 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h23L5DR06259 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 13:05:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E63C4DB.7090405@attbi.com> Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 13:10:51 -0800 From: Gene Yoo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2) Gecko/20021202 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dustin Puryear , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030301184159.0572d7f8@mail.puryear-it.com> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030301184159.0572d7f8@mail.puryear-it.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Mar 2003 21:04:59.0591 (UTC) FILETIME=[8D0C7D70:01C2E1C8] X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Dustin Puryear wrote: > I was reading the recent email sent out by SAGE and noticed something > said that I have never before experienced: "Furthermore, the perception > that computers run themselves and that administrators are a 'necessary > evil' or, worse, some kind of a scam." Has anyone actually been in this > kind of environment? > > --- > Dustin Puryear > Puryear Information Technology > Windows, UNIX, and IT Consulting > http://www.puryear-it.com > > > dustin, it's obvious you haven't worked for a legal industry :), and i mean a bunch of lawyers! do you know how long it took me to get a simple 2K service contract for signage. well, let's just say it took me over 3 months because our OGC wanted to "put their mark or comments". it was a simple contract for installation and liability :) -- <> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (GNU/Linux) iQCUAwUBPhxERRxoVYCzmrKXAQJK5gP3Y7CTsFyKpEz2p5W4GWI9+qSm+kWfdJ0R xNlma0Ma9rAL/OBJcZMo5IXyXas+3Edogbv4Al6dIf8lot1WS0Iaxxl/cg2f7gf+ otf7LfNpZDE/6OzR7A1qN6baPMLSjGzywwQWMfSVuWWb6kGQxMsA13Kn68G7Ozxs 5CODZqUPyg== =AolA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 13:18:27 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h23LIRQ06667 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 13:18:27 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [208.46.39.1] From: "Nat Carling" To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030301184159.0572d7f8@mail.puryear-it.com> <3E63C4DB.7090405@attbi.com> Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 15:17:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Mar 2003 21:18:25.0816 (UTC) FILETIME=[6D98A980:01C2E1CA] X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk on a perhaps only tangentially related note, at our lawfirm, we've actually had hardware get end-of-lifed while waiting for the PO to be signed... good grief. ncarling_at_comcast_dot_net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Yoo" > dustin, it's obvious you haven't worked for a legal industry > :), and i mean a bunch of lawyers! do you know how long it > took me to get a simple 2K service contract for signage. > well, let's just say it took me over 3 months because our > OGC wanted to "put their mark or comments". it was a simple > contract for installation and liability :) > -- > <> > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 13:56:53 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h23Lurb07404 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 13:56:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:56:07 -0500 (EST) From: "Julian C. Dunn" X-X-Sender: jdunn@enterprise.office.verticalscope.com To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Job market?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030303165130.U14510@enterprise.office.verticalscope.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, rilke wrote: > Unlike many, I am employed, although not in what I would consider to be > an ideal environment. Ditto. > Considering the way the market's been lately I have laid off looking for > something better. Call it apathy, call it laziness, call it being too > pissed off at the entire process of selling oneself - whatever. I just > know that I am going to need to move soon as claustrophobia is rapidly > setting in. > > What is the general opinion of the job market? Has there been any > perceivable bump in postings for the first quarter? I see that many of the postings out there are from bigger companies. Banks and other financial institutions seem to be hiring quite a bit. Whether that's your cup of tea is a different matter. > What about those of you employed? Are you seeing any loosening of > budgets at all? No, not particularly. I've been following the other thread about SA's being a "necessary evil" in the eyes of management, and I can relate. It's not quite as bad as that where I work, in that the SAs are somewhat appreciated -- it's just that it's orders of magnitude easier for the marketing weasels to get cash out of management than it is for the IT group to get cash out of them for IT projects. So, in conclusion, I think things are getting better out there -- slowly. And hopefully when things get good enough, I'll be in a position to find another job. - Julian -- | Julian C. Dunn | | WWW: http://www.aquezada.com/staff/julian/ | | "I've got love and anger, they come as a pair" -- Aimee Mann | From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 15:34:15 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h23NYFf13004 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 15:34:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E63E7CD.9070103@attbi.com> Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 15:39:57 -0800 From: Gene Yoo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2) Gecko/20021202 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nat Carling , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030301184159.0572d7f8@mail.puryear-it.com> <3E63C4DB.7090405@attbi.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Mar 2003 23:34:04.0425 (UTC) FILETIME=[6095D790:01C2E1DD] X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Nat Carling wrote: > on a perhaps only tangentially related note, at our lawfirm, we've actually > had hardware get end-of-lifed while waiting for the PO to be signed... > > good grief. > ncarling_at_comcast_dot_net > and they blame us for not "proactively assessing" the situation :)... -- <> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (GNU/Linux) iQCUAwUBPhxERRxoVYCzmrKXAQJK5gP3Y7CTsFyKpEz2p5W4GWI9+qSm+kWfdJ0R xNlma0Ma9rAL/OBJcZMo5IXyXas+3Edogbv4Al6dIf8lot1WS0Iaxxl/cg2f7gf+ otf7LfNpZDE/6OzR7A1qN6baPMLSjGzywwQWMfSVuWWb6kGQxMsA13Kn68G7Ozxs 5CODZqUPyg== =AolA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 17:37:43 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h241bgN20019 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 17:37:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:39:20 +0800 From: Ng Pheng Siong To: Robert Hajime Lanning Cc: Ng Pheng Siong , David Wolfskill , "sage-members@usenix.org" Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? Message-ID: <20030304013920.GB61981@vista.netmemetic.com> References: <20030303011938.GA11530@vista.netmemetic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Mar 03, 2003 at 07:00:58PM +0000, Robert Hajime Lanning wrote: > To the people (now directly your customers) that pay you, you are still > a cost center. To the people that use the computers that you maintain, > you are still the "nessesary evil". > > Shuffling the pieces around does not change the picture, it just confuses it. You are now responsible for your bottom line as a service provider and it is in your business interest to operate smarter, leaner and meaner. The benefits of that are passed on to your customer. The customer's cost centre now suck in less cost which makes the necessary evil less intolerable. I read that IBM got two big outsourcing deals in recent months with big financial institutions, including taking over the people. One's a local, the other is in Europe (I think), so there isn't much overlap. But suppose IBM next gets another local, say. Surely it will combine the two teams it landed and then shed some excess later. I imagine this must be how the numbers are supposed to make sense in such deals. -- Ng Pheng Siong http://firewall.rulemaker.net -+- Improve Your Firewall Operation ROI http://www.post1.com/home/ngps -+- Open Source Python Crypto & SSL From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 17:38:44 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h241chM20166 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 17:38:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 20:38:33 -0500 From: Michael Steeves To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030303203833.A364@nautilus.shore.net> References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from karl@dakota-st.com on Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 06:13:23PM -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk * Karl Schlitt (karl@dakota-st.com) [030228 15:17]: > On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Benjamin Feen wrote: > > What's the coolest thing you use in your daily work? > > PuTTY. When layer 8 imposes a M$ desktop, this ssh/telnet > client is the reason it can work. Stick Hummingbird's X > server on the pc, and ssh can tunnel X, and it is almost > like being there. And it is free. If it did sco-ansi and > tn3270 it would be killer. Actually, I'm becoming fond of CygWin (http://www.cygwin.com), which provides not only ssh, but a lot of other "Unix" commands, as well as an X-emulator, and is free (under GPL, actually, but still...). I was able to spend three nights running dialed into work, messing with EMC's Volume Logix software on a Sun and Veritas on a second Sun, working on assigning disks to a machine to grow volumes, all from a Dell laptop running Win2K. > (still looking for a linux notes client) They've ported Domino to run under SuSE -- don't know if they've left it server-only, or if there's a client as well. Barring that, enable web and IMAP, and use Netscape. 7.0 works passably well on my Solaris 9 workstation, enough so that I don't really use my PC Notes client for anything more then when I'm dialed/VPNed into work, or to do helpdesk tickets, since I'm too lazy to do anything different. -- Mike Steeves (msteeves@shore.net) Ceci n'est pas une .signature. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 18:35:30 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h242ZU521367 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 18:35:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 21:35:23 -0500 From: Joseph S D Yao To: Chuck Yerkes Cc: Sage-Members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030303213523.G3921@gwyn.tux.org> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , Sage-Members@usenix.org References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <28560000.1046461797@jxh.mirapoint.com> <1046466445.1764.13.camel@Narsil> <46000000.1046471963@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030302084511.GE20102@snew.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20030302084511.GE20102@snew.com>; from chuck+sage@snew.com on Sun, Mar 02, 2003 at 03:45:11AM -0500 X-Accepted-File-Formats: ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Mar 02, 2003 at 03:45:11AM -0500, Chuck Yerkes wrote: ... > I'm doing HTML mail only from now. > > So how to I make vi and mutt do html mail... God forbid! [Answer: copy your message out to a file, add to the top: add to the end: and attach it as an attachment. Do it and I will be forever annoyed at you, though.] -- /*********************************************************************\ ** ** Joe Yao jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao ** \*********************************************************************/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 18:50:11 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h242oBH21709 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 18:50:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200303040249.SAA19971@biz.compata.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.3 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Mar 2003 09:39:20 +0800." <20030304013920.GB61981@vista.netmemetic.com> From: Dave Close X-message-flag: Did you know MS Outlook is evil? X-Face: $?&5f7w4GjUJOb-[FmngebA}V`5Dv)QEdHg|d%mytVRm]'o}*{J6:PP%(LfN LmOcb#>"^wDF*|ZzuS??S*vLH[.miV(I read that IBM got two big outsourcing deals in recent months with big >financial institutions, including taking over the people. One's a local, >the other is in Europe (I think), so there isn't much overlap. IBM has also failed to renew some outsourcing deals with financial companies. Switching between in-house support and outsourcing seems to be cyclical and not really involve anything more than churn, something that some financial institutions know a lot about. -- Dave Close, Compata, Costa Mesa CA +1 714 434 7359 dave@compata.com dhclose@alumni.caltech.edu "The world will little note nor long remember what we say here." -- Abraham Lincoln, Gettysburg, 1863 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 18:52:47 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h242qlB21825 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 18:52:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200303040252.SAA20050@biz.compata.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.3 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Mar 2003 21:35:23 EST." <20030303213523.G3921@gwyn.tux.org> From: Dave Close X-message-flag: Did you know MS Outlook is evil? X-Face: $?&5f7w4GjUJOb-[FmngebA}V`5Dv)QEdHg|d%mytVRm]'o}*{J6:PP%(LfN LmOcb#>"^wDF*|ZzuS??S*vLH[.miV([Answer: copy your message out to a file, add to the top: > >add to the end: > >and attach it as an attachment. My email client will show that as plain text with some silly tags included. It uses MIME type to determine if something should be HTML. It doesn't just guess based on content. -- Dave Close, Compata, Costa Mesa CA "The cost of silicon chips has been dave@compata.com, +1 714 434 7359 steady at about $1bn per acre for dhclose@alumni.caltech.edu 40 years." --Gordon Moore From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 19:02:37 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h2432aY22294 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 19:02:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 22:02:02 -0500 From: Joseph S D Yao To: Dave Close Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030303220202.M3921@gwyn.tux.org> Mail-Followup-To: Dave Close , sage-members@usenix.org References: <20030303213523.G3921@gwyn.tux.org> <200303040252.SAA20050@biz.compata.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200303040252.SAA20050@biz.compata.com>; from dave@compata.com on Mon, Mar 03, 2003 at 06:52:27PM -0800 X-Accepted-File-Formats: ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Mar 03, 2003 at 06:52:27PM -0800, Dave Close wrote: > Joseph S D Yao wrote: > >[Answer: copy your message out to a file, add to the top: > > > >add to the end: > > > >and attach it as an attachment. > > My email client will show that as plain text with some silly tags > included. It uses MIME type to determine if something should be HTML. > It doesn't just guess based on content. > -- > Dave Close, Compata, Costa Mesa CA "The cost of silicon chips has been > dave@compata.com, +1 714 434 7359 steady at about $1bn per acre for > dhclose@alumni.caltech.edu 40 years." --Gordon Moore I will send that to you separately and you decide. -- /*********************************************************************\ ** ** Joe Yao jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao ** \*********************************************************************/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 19:14:46 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h243EkY22626 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 19:14:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200303040314.TAA20683@biz.compata.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.3 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Mar 2003 22:02:02 EST." <20030303220202.M3921@gwyn.tux.org> From: Dave Close X-message-flag: Did you know MS Outlook is evil? X-Face: $?&5f7w4GjUJOb-[FmngebA}V`5Dv)QEdHg|d%mytVRm]'o}*{J6:PP%(LfN LmOcb#>"^wDF*|ZzuS??S*vLH[.miV(I will send that to you separately and you decide. Your message: $ mhlist +inbox 8 msg part type/subtype size description 8 multipart/mixed 2038 1 text/plain 889 2 text/html 917 As the second part was HTML according to its MIME type, it would have been rendered as HTML by my reader. But I've got mine set to render only the plain text part by default. -- Dave Close, Compata, Costa Mesa CA +1 714 434 7359 dave@compata.com dhclose@alumni.caltech.edu "The world will little note nor long remember what we say here." -- Abraham Lincoln, Gettysburg, 1863 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 20:00:30 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h2440Ug23098 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 20:00:30 -0800 (PST) From: shades2@iinet.net.au To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 11:18:13 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [SAGE] Serious Sendmail security bug Message-ID: <3E648B75.10322.57BECC9@localhost> In-reply-to: <20030303220202.M3921@gwyn.tux.org> References: <200303040252.SAA20050@biz.compata.com>; from dave@compata.com on Mon, Mar 03, 2003 at 06:52:27PM -0800 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Some of you may already be aware of this: ISS X-Force have found a buffer overflow vulnerability in the Sendmail MTA, involving the crackaddr() function in headers.c within the Sendmail source tree. Depending on which user is running the Sendmail daemon (usually root) a remote exploit leading to compromise of the system can occur. http://www.iss.net/issEn/delivery/xforce/alertdetail.jsp?oid=21950 http://www.sendmail.com/security/index.shtml Time to patch and/or upgrade Sendmail. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 3 20:33:23 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h244XNT23488 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 20:33:23 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brent@mycroft.greatcircle.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200303040249.SAA19971@biz.compata.com> References: <200303040249.SAA19971@biz.compata.com> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:24:38 +1100 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Brent Chapman Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 6:49 PM -0800 3/3/03, Dave Close wrote: >Ng Pheng Siong wrote: > >I read that IBM got two big outsourcing deals in recent months with big > >financial institutions, including taking over the people. One's a local, > >the other is in Europe (I think), so there isn't much overlap. > >IBM has also failed to renew some outsourcing deals with financial >companies. Switching between in-house support and outsourcing seems >to be cyclical and not really involve anything more than churn, >something that some financial institutions know a lot about. The cycle goes something like this: CEO: My, we're sure spending a lot of money on IT, let's outsource it! CIO: What, you want me to cut my own throat organizationally? CIO2: Outsourcing, you bet! CEO: My, our IT service really sucks, surely we can do better ourselves? CIO2: Do it ourselves, you bet! Board: Why are you spending so much money! CEO2: Outsourcing, you bet! CIO2: But! But! We just got done un-outsourcing! CIO3: Outsourcing, you bet! and so on and so forth. Organizations have little or no organizational memory for stuff like this. They just keep going around and around the loop, with various diversions as different CxOs come and go. -Brent -- Brent Chapman From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 00:49:48 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h248nmR25323 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 00:49:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E64689D.4040401@snert.com> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 09:49:33 +0100 From: Anthony Howe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4a) Gecko/20030303 X-Accept-Language: en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <28560000.1046461797@jxh.mirapoint.com> <1046466445.1764.13.camel@Narsil> <46000000.1046471963@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030302084511.GE20102@snew.com> <20030303213523.G3921@gwyn.tux.org> In-Reply-To: <20030303213523.G3921@gwyn.tux.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Joseph S D Yao wrote: > On Sun, Mar 02, 2003 at 03:45:11AM -0500, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > ... > >>I'm doing HTML mail only from now. >> >>So how to I make vi and mutt do html mail... I detest HTML email. I've setup filters to reject it from my mail box. HTML email is just for sales people and users with too much free time on their hands. Here's quick way to handle HTML mail in vi (nvi prefered): :%s/<[^>]*>//g Though it won't work across split lines. -- Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus "Will the real email please stand up..." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 01:14:06 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h249E6E25762 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 01:14:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E646E4D.60001@snert.com> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 10:13:49 +0100 From: Anthony Howe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4a) Gecko/20030303 X-Accept-Language: en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Howe CC: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <28560000.1046461797@jxh.mirapoint.com> <1046466445.1764.13.camel@Narsil> <46000000.1046471963@jxh.mirapoint.com> <20030302084511.GE20102@snew.com> <20030303213523.G3921@gwyn.tux.org> <3E64689D.4040401@snert.com> In-Reply-To: <3E64689D.4040401@snert.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > I detest HTML email. I've setup filters to reject it from my mail box. > HTML email is just for sales people and users with too much free time on > their hands. > > Here's quick way to handle HTML mail in vi (nvi prefered): > > :%s/<[^>]*>//g > > Though it won't work across split lines. Oh BTW, Mozilla has a wonderful menu option: View > Message Body As > Plain Text Great for ignoring HTML-only email that slips the SPAM filters. Its sort of like Zaphod Beeblebrox's total peril sensitive sunglasses from "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" - the lenses turn black in the face of danger. -- Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus "Will the real email please stand up..." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 01:15:47 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h249FlS25852 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 01:15:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:15:45 +0000 From: Ade Rixon To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030304091545.GB26378@trinity.fluff.org> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <20030227233510.GJ16946@pianosa.catch22.org> <20030303203833.A364@nautilus.shore.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030303203833.A364@nautilus.shore.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Home-Page: http://www.big.bubbles.btinternet.co.uk/ X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk 3 Mar 08:38:33 PM: Meanwhile in the Sheraton, Michael Steeves wrote: > Actually, I'm becoming fond of CygWin (http://www.cygwin.com), which > provides not only ssh, but a lot of other "Unix" commands, as well as > an X-emulator, and is free (under GPL, actually, but still...). Ooh, yes! I'll add Cygwin's X server to my list of coolest things, especially run like this: $ startx -- -multiwindow (X windows with native Win32 decorations. Needs the latest release.) Staying with the unsurprising, cfengine is immeasurably cool too. I get a tingle of pleasure every time I add another rule to the config and think, "I never have to remember to do that again". But maybe I just get my kicks in odd ways. :-) Ade_ / From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 02:30:32 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24AUW701092 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 02:30:32 -0800 (PST) From: shades2@iinet.net.au To: Anthony Howe Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 18:26:52 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? CC: sage-members@usenix.org Message-ID: <3E64EFEC.6659.9DD8EF@localhost> In-reply-to: <3E64689D.4040401@snert.com> References: <20030303213523.G3921@gwyn.tux.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 4 Mar 2003 at 9:49, Anthony Howe wrote: > Joseph S D Yao wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 02, 2003 at 03:45:11AM -0500, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > > ... > > > >>I'm doing HTML mail only from now. > >> > >>So how to I make vi and mutt do html mail... > > I detest HTML email. I've setup filters to reject it from my mail box. > HTML email is just for sales people and users with too much free time > on their hands. > > Here's quick way to handle HTML mail in vi (nvi prefered): > > :%s/<[^>]*>//g > > Though it won't work across split lines. > > > -- > Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 > http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus > "Will the real email please stand up..." Thanks, very handy. Here's a "sed" version: cat infile.html | sed -e 's:<[^>]*>::g' > outfile.txt And a Korn shell script to do a directory of html files: --------- #/!/bin/ksh # # Convert a directory of .htm* files into text. FILE_NAME="" OUT_FILE="" for FILE_NAME in $(ls *.htm*) do OUT_FILE=$(echo ${FILE_NAME} | awk -F"." {'print $1'}) cat ${FILE_NAME} | sed -e 's:<[^>]*>::g' > ${OUT_FILE}.txt done exit 0 --------- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 03:20:57 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24BKv318007 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 03:20:57 -0800 (PST) From: Carl Schelin Organization: NASA Headquarters To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 06:21:11 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030301184159.0572d7f8@mail.puryear-it.com> <3E62B6C7.5D63229D@cs.iupui.edu> <15971.44509.571821.414615@azazel.infersys.com> In-Reply-To: <15971.44509.571821.414615@azazel.infersys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <03030406211136.01066@unixgod.hq.nasa.gov> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Monday 03 March 2003 14:32, Josh Smith wrote: > Yeah, this is a hard valley (pit? well?) to fight your way out of, but it > can be done. One way to start is to try to carve out enough time to > demonstrate The Better Way on a small scale. The problem here is that there's no profit in upgrading the hardware so we're running pretty old equipment (Sparc 5, Sparc 1 and a bunch of 10's and 20's with some newer 220R's). New equipment comes when some new project needs something so we have 15 web servers doing their own little things. > Science and engineering > faculties are typically made up of pretty smart people, but they're also > often skeptical, and likewise very nervous about changes to things that > work (from their point of view)... But if you show them something that > works better, and they use it and agree that it works better, they're > reasonably likely to get on board. And if you can do it for one small > group, word will spread, and others will start coming over to the New Way. > Of course, if you try and fail, you just dig yourself in deeper, so you've > gotta be careful to get it right the first time. > > Another hard part is answering the people who will keep saying "I need to > be able to fiddle with my own box". The only answer that'll stick is if > you can make it so they *don't* need to fiddle with their own box. We want > to offer them a cookie-cutter solution that's easy for us to maintain, but > if it doesn't do what they need, they're not going to care about how much > more efficient we are. > On the other side, the users can certainly muck with their systems but they 'void' the warranty. If someone calls in a problem and they have non-core software installed that causes the problem, the contract calls for wiping their disk and ghosting a standard load back on their system along with a bill for services. > It's not easy, but we've had some success with it here at Caltech. > > Along the "necessary evil" lines, I think this is a hard perception to > avoid, and it seems common to many professions that are largely about > fixing things and solving problems. Aren't policemen, plumbers, auto > mechanics, and doctors, all "necessary evils" in the same sense? No one > wants to go to the doctor, but everyone understands why you need to have > them around, and they're respected and admired professionals. > > (It's not quite the same, because a big part of our job, at least at the > higher levels, is to create systems that fail less often; that's less true > of, say, doctors. Still, a lot of our job will always be reactive, and > it's hard to sell that side of the business as something that anyone wants > to need more of.) > With the new contract, we'll be able to upgrade hardware to something closer to the 21st century, well assuming there's any funds left. Carl -- There is no patch for stupidity. Carl Schelin (BOFH, Badlife, DNRC, Sun CSA/CNA, Cisco CNA/CNP, '02 FXSTI) finger cschelin@x500.hq.nasa.gov for phone and address From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 03:25:22 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24BPMa18252 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 03:25:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E648D15.80502@snert.com> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 12:25:09 +0100 From: Anthony Howe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4a) Gecko/20030303 X-Accept-Language: en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? References: <20030303213523.G3921@gwyn.tux.org> <3E64EFEC.6659.9DD8EF@localhost> In-Reply-To: <3E64EFEC.6659.9DD8EF@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>Here's quick way to handle HTML mail in vi (nvi prefered): >> >> :%s/<[^>]*>//g >> >>Though it won't work across split lines. > > Thanks, very handy. Here's a "sed" version: > > cat infile.html | sed -e 's:<[^>]*>::g' > outfile.txt Heres a sed version that will handle an HTML tag split across two or more lines: cat junk.html | sed \ -e '/<[^>]*$/,/^[^>]*>/ { N s/<[^>]*$// s/^[^>]*>// P D }'\ -e 's/<[^>]*>//g' >outfile.txt -- Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus "Will the real email please stand up..." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 03:37:59 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Bbx018566 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 03:37:59 -0800 (PST) From: Carl Schelin Organization: NASA Headquarters To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Job market?? Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 06:38:13 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <3E63A83B.DDC5F0E0@attbi.com> In-Reply-To: <3E63A83B.DDC5F0E0@attbi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <03030406381337.01066@unixgod.hq.nasa.gov> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Monday 03 March 2003 14:08, Grace Rohrer wrote: > > One or another of my professors used to say, "A Professional is > always looking." As long as the folks you work for, won't take > it out on you if they know you are looking--KEEP LOOKING for > something better! (In my case, I'm going to go back to school > part time, and KEEP LOOKING for something better!) > One of my favorite interview quotes was with Ricardo Montalban. He was asked why he did Fantasy Island, Planet of the Apes, the Cordoba car commercials ("Rich Corinthian Leather") and all the other different shows. He said that he was an actor and these were jobs. He was thankful that he was able to work and that an out of work actor is simply unemployed. Carl -- There is no patch for stupidity. Carl Schelin (BOFH, Badlife, DNRC, Sun CSA/CNA, Cisco CNA/CNP, '02 FXSTI) finger cschelin@x500.hq.nasa.gov for phone and address From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 06:26:12 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24EQC519903 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 06:26:12 -0800 (PST) To: shades2@iinet.net.au Cc: Anthony Howe , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? References: <20030303213523.G3921@gwyn.tux.org> <3E64EFEC.6659.9DD8EF@localhost> From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: 04 Mar 2003 06:26:09 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3E64EFEC.6659.9DD8EF@localhost> Message-ID: <86r89ntdha.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "shades2" == shades2 writes: shades2> cat infile.html | sed -e 's:<[^>]*>::g' > outfile.txt And if this were comp.unix.questions, you would have just won yourself a "Useless Use of Cat Award"... I'm still amazed people do this. Where does this idiom come from, of cat with a single argument? Is it a windows thing backported to Unix? -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 06:50:58 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Eow820334 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 06:50:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E64BD4D.3040500@computer.org> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 09:50:53 -0500 From: Michael Gorski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brent Chapman CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? References: <200303040249.SAA19971@biz.compata.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: e60dab0b445cd1a99649176a89d694c0f43c108795ac4507cff312706d5084143b01c7ee8e109e6e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I love the short play you have below. It's sad when parody and reality get so close to each other. Nonetheless, this is a natural cycle that we should anticipate and not try to stop. Take a look at "The Reorg Cycle" by Phillip Armour in the February 2003 issue of Communications of the ACM. By recognizing this cycle is reality rather than being surprised by it, we can use it to our advantage. -Mike Brent Chapman wrote: > At 6:49 PM -0800 3/3/03, Dave Close wrote: > >> Ng Pheng Siong wrote: >> >I read that IBM got two big outsourcing deals in recent months with big >> >financial institutions, including taking over the people. One's a local, >> >the other is in Europe (I think), so there isn't much overlap. >> >> IBM has also failed to renew some outsourcing deals with financial >> companies. Switching between in-house support and outsourcing seems >> to be cyclical and not really involve anything more than churn, >> something that some financial institutions know a lot about. > > > The cycle goes something like this: > > CEO: My, we're sure spending a lot of money on IT, let's outsource it! > > CIO: What, you want me to cut my own throat organizationally? > > > > CIO2: Outsourcing, you bet! > > > > CEO: My, our IT service really sucks, surely we can do better ourselves? > > CIO2: Do it ourselves, you bet! > > > > Board: Why are you spending so much money! > > > > CEO2: Outsourcing, you bet! > > CIO2: But! But! We just got done un-outsourcing! > > > > CIO3: Outsourcing, you bet! > > > > and so on and so forth. > > > Organizations have little or no organizational memory for stuff like > this. They just keep going around and around the loop, with various > diversions as different CxOs come and go. > > > -Brent > > -- > Brent Chapman > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 06:54:41 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24EsfJ20460 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 06:54:41 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Cc: shades2@iinet.net.au, Anthony Howe , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-reply-to: Randal L. Schwartz's message of 04 Mar 2003 06:26:09 PST <86r89ntdha.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Organization: mental images GmbH & Co. KG, Berlin, Germany Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 15:54:14 +0100 Message-ID: <2401.1046789654@mental.com> From: Alexander Lobodzinski X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk () won yourself a "Useless Use of Cat Award"... () () I'm still amazed people do this. Where does this idiom come from, of () cat with a single argument? Is it a windows thing backported to Unix? Well... Did you know this one? lobo@twen /h/toast/lobo 28> diff .cshrc ../.snapshot/weekly.3/lobo/.cshrc lobo@twen /h/toast/lobo 29> diff - ../.snapshot/weekly.3/lobo/.cshrc < .cshrc lobo@twen /h/toast/lobo 30> cat .cshrc | diff - ../.snapshot/weekly.3/lobo/.cshrc 421d420 < case "glix": Exit 1 lobo@twen /h/toast/lobo 31> Files in Netapp snapshots have inode numbers identical to the real files and (Solaris) diff is just a little too smart. Ciao, Lobo From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 06:57:28 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24EvSj20680 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 06:57:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:57:25 -0500 From: Luke Hankins To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030304145725.GX4262@ethersmith.com> References: <20030303213523.G3921@gwyn.tux.org> <3E64EFEC.6659.9DD8EF@localhost> <86r89ntdha.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <86r89ntdha.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk * Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > I'm still amazed people do this. Where does this idiom come from, of > cat with a single argument? Is it a windows thing backported to Unix? (I can't get to the referenced .fi page, so this might be all responded to there.) I just grepped through some of my scripts and it looks like I overuse cat slightly more than half the time. Off the top of my head, here's why: - It makes a pipeline act like a pipeline, in that things go in at the front and come out the back. Donno, but that feels cleaner to me. - It's easier to insert a new element into the pipeline. - It's easier to steal the code with one cut/paste and use it elsewhere with no editing. - It fits the way I write scripts when I'm firefighting[1]. "Ok, so I've got this file , and I need to sort, no, grep it for..." - It's easier to read and explain to other people. (When you're telling a fairy tale, you start by introducing the protagonist and then reveal what happens to them. "Once upon a time a wolf jumped on someone and ate them. Oh, did I mention that that someone was a little girl in a stylish red hood?" - Since pid's are a recyclable resource, I don't mind chewing another one up just to exercise a cat. It feels odd defending something that is, I agree, pretty silly, but I can't help it. (And I didn't get this from dos, but I don't know about other people.) -Luke [1] Upon further review, it looks like that's where the split lies in my code. Stuff that I've cobbled together from pieces and parts under fire tend to use cat, whereas things that I've had more than 30 seconds to consider use redirection. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 07:00:47 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24F0lY20981 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 07:00:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:00:44 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris To: "Randal L. Schwartz" Cc: shades2@iinet.net.au, Anthony Howe , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-Reply-To: <86r89ntdha.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: References: <20030303213523.G3921@gwyn.tux.org> <3E64EFEC.6659.9DD8EF@localhost> <86r89ntdha.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Randal L. Schwartz writes: > >>>>> "shades2" == shades2 writes: > > shades2> cat infile.html | sed -e 's:<[^>]*>::g' > outfile.txt > > And if this were comp.unix.questions, you would have just won > yourself a "Useless Use of Cat Award"... > > > > I'm still amazed people do this. Where does this idiom come from, of > cat with a single argument? Is it a windows thing backported to Unix? I suspect it comes from confusion about which utilities can take both stdin and a filename, and which insist on stdin. It seems to me that, at least historically, there were a few utilities that wouldn't take a filename argument--wasn't an old version of uudecode one such? tr still is, of course. And then there's the issue of utilities that either stripped or appended filename suffixes--who could be bothered to remember that sort of detail? Sometimes, behavior changes. For instance, I was once at a site where if you ran "lpr " you got a banner page printed with the filename (in that great old ascii-art big-print that nobody does anymore), but if you ran "cat | lpr" you didn't get a banner page. I find it funny when I see "cat | grep ..", but I personally often will run cat <..> | grep .. as an easy way to suppress the filename prefix on grep's output. Yeah, I know that there's a grep flag (-h) to do the same thing, but I can't be bothered to remember it or check the manpage. These days, though, I think there's much more regularity (duing in no small part, I would bet, to Perl's diamond operator <> codifying in most Unixheads minds what exactly the proper stdin-vs-args behavior should be). (Falling into my linguistics/cognitive science background now, apologies!) In many arenas of learning, people tend to remember unusual cases, often better than the subtleties of the rule governing the usual cases. And unlike the rule, which is internalized and becomes unconcious, exceptions remain naggingly concious. People overgeneralize. This leads in language to people incorrectly saying, "Margaret went with Phil and I to the store" because they've been previously corrected for saying "Phil and me went to the store". The brain makes the connection "you should say 'and I,' not 'and me'" without making the deeper changes necessary to actually use the pronoun correctly. I think the same thing happens here. People who have been "corrected" (by way of an error) for using the filename-argument and solved the problem by using cat now hyperextend that solution to cases where it isn't necessary. Trey -- I'm looking for work. If you need a SAGE Level IV with 10 years Perl, tool development, training, and architecture experience, please email me at trey@sage.org. I'm willing to relocate for the right opportunity. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 07:07:02 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24F71m21464 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 07:07:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:06:13 -0500 From: Steve Simmons To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030304150613.GA55746@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Randal L. Schwartz writes: > I'm still amazed people do this. Where does this idiom come from, of > cat with a single argument? Is it a windows thing backported to Unix? No, it's a legacy unix training thing. Most trainers (including me) start by illustrating very simple pipelines with stuff like cat foo | grep bar Unfortunately this immediately fixes the 'cat foo |' idiom in a lot of people brains. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 07:10:01 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24FA1G21628 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 07:10:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200303041509.KAA27918@kalanit.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: kalanit.umd.edu: kpenn owned process doing -bs to: SAGE Members From: Kathy Penn Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Mar 2003 09:49:33 +0100." <3E64689D.4040401@snert.com> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 10:09:57 -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 4 March 2003 at 9:49, Anthony Howe wrote: > I detest HTML email. I've setup filters to reject it from my mail box. > HTML email is just for sales people and users with too much free time > on their hands. > I don't mean to get too far off topic, but you must not have friends or family who are not internet-savvy. Anyone using AOL at this point has HTML set on automatically -- at least they send both text and html. I have tried to get them to change this, but have had no luck -- mostly due to lack of understanding and caring to take the time on their part. Plus one relative (grandmother) who needs AOL formatting so she can get larger font versions. I detest HMTL e-mail also, and deleting HTML-only messages seems to make sense, but don't you get mail from friends, relatives, and even the occasional idiot manager that is both text and HTML? (The "you" is general there.) ka -- Kathy Penn Unix SysAdmin kpenn@glue.umd.edu I speak for no one but me. and occasionally the trees. Very few profundities can be expressed in fewer than 80 characters. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 07:11:11 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24FBAV21742 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 07:11:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:11:08 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris To: Alexander Lobodzinski Cc: "Randal L. Schwartz" , shades2@iinet.net.au, Anthony Howe , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-Reply-To: <2401.1046789654@mental.com> Message-ID: References: <2401.1046789654@mental.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Alexander Lobodzinski writes: > () won yourself a "Useless Use of Cat Award"... > () > () I'm still amazed people do this. Where does this idiom come from, of > () cat with a single argument? Is it a windows thing backported to Unix? > > Well... Did you know this one? > > lobo@twen /h/toast/lobo 28> diff .cshrc ../.snapshot/weekly.3/lobo/.cshrc > lobo@twen /h/toast/lobo 29> diff - ../.snapshot/weekly.3/lobo/.cshrc < .cshrc > lobo@twen /h/toast/lobo 30> cat .cshrc | diff - ../.snapshot/weekly.3/lobo/.cshrc > 421d420 > < case "glix": > Exit 1 > lobo@twen /h/toast/lobo 31> > > Files in Netapp snapshots have inode numbers identical to the real > files and (Solaris) diff is just a little too smart. Those last two command lines are fascinating to me. In the first case, diff examines the inode number of the file descriptor and can thus conclude it's the same file as the second one, while in the second case, you're using the output of cat, which doesn't have an inode number, so diff is forced to compare the text. What a lovely--though possibly evil--technical interview question for a junior-bucking-for-senior candidate! :-) Trey -- I'm looking for work. If you need a SAGE Level IV with 10 years Perl, tool development, training, and architecture experience, please email me at trey@sage.org. I'm willing to relocate for the right opportunity. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 07:11:50 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24FBoF21854 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 07:11:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:13:09 -0600 From: Pete Ehlke To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030304151309.GA96150@rfc822.net> References: <20030303213523.G3921@gwyn.tux.org> <3E64EFEC.6659.9DD8EF@localhost> <86r89ntdha.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <86r89ntdha.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 06:26:09AM -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>> "shades2" == shades2 writes: > > shades2> cat infile.html | sed -e 's:<[^>]*>::g' > outfile.txt > > And if this were comp.unix.questions, you would have just won > yourself a "Useless Use of Cat Award"... > > > > I'm still amazed people do this. Where does this idiom come from, of > cat with a single argument? Is it a windows thing backported to Unix? > As time goes by, I see more and more of this sort of thing, rather than less and less. cat used like this, things like grep, sort, find, and (heaven help us all...) awk getting exec'd from inside perl scripts, java apps that take 3.5 Mb RSS just to say 'hello, world', etc etc etc. Nobody seems to care about cycles and optimization any more. It's cheaper to just go shopping than it is to write efficient software. Taken to a somewhat deeper level, I think this attitude, as it extends out to non-technical management, is part of the phenomenon currently being discussed in another thread on this list. There is, in my experience, a widespread perception that buying a bunch of (typically horrendously expensive) 'systems management software' obviates the need for those pesky, expensive senior administrators who always seem to want to do things the 'right' way. Cheaper (in many ways) in the long run to hire a never ending carousel of entry-level people to babysit HPOV or Patrol or Sun Management Center or whetever, and occasionally hire Sun or IBM or some other service delivery shop to do initial architecture and installation of complex systems. -P. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 07:34:12 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24FYBn22749 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 07:34:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E64C766.8060202@snert.com> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 16:33:58 +0100 From: Anthony Howe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4a) Gecko/20030303 X-Accept-Language: en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? References: <200303041509.KAA27918@kalanit.umd.edu> In-Reply-To: <200303041509.KAA27918@kalanit.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Kathy Penn wrote: > On 4 March 2003 at 9:49, Anthony Howe wrote: > > >>I detest HTML email. I've setup filters to reject it from my mail box. >>HTML email is just for sales people and users with too much free time >>on their hands. >> > > I don't mean to get too far off topic, but you must not have friends or > family who are not internet-savvy. Anyone using AOL at this point has I block it at the server (personal one) with a nice little reject message explaining briefly where in Outlook Express or Mozilla to disable it. My family and friends for teh most part have figured it out. Outlook and Mozilla come with HTML email enable by default :( Really annoys me, since most people don't use teh extra features havlf teh time. > I detest HMTL e-mail also, and deleting HTML-only messages seems to > make sense, but don't you get mail from friends, relatives, and even > the occasional idiot manager that is both text and HTML? Do we really care about ignoring managers? -- Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus "Will the real email please stand up..." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 07:42:09 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Fg9022992 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 07:42:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E64C939.2920BEE0@deaddrop.org> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 07:41:45 -0800 From: Etaoin Shrdlu Organization: I am Chaos. I am alive, and I tell you that you are Free. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; OpenBSD 2.6 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? References: <200303041509.KAA27918@kalanit.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Kathy Penn wrote: > > On 4 March 2003 at 9:49, Anthony Howe wrote: > > > I detest HTML email. I've setup filters to reject it from my mail box. > > HTML email is just for sales people and users with too much free time > > on their hands. > > > I don't mean to get too far off topic, but you must not have friends or > family who are not internet-savvy... Personally, I'm happy to educate anyone that I anticipate sending me further email. I've been known to show up at someone's office and reset their LookOut, or send them email on how to do it themselves. It's an uphill battle, but I never give up on it. I point out how much larger those emails are, and most of them have been on the other end of a modem when traveling, so it starts to make sense. > I detest HMTL e-mail also, and deleting HTML-only messages seems to > make sense, but don't you get mail from friends, relatives, and even > the occasional idiot manager that is both text and HTML? Yes, but see below. [From your .sig] > Very few profundities can be expressed in fewer than 80 characters. Oh, I can't resist this... Even my mother, who is 80 and not computer aware, knows how to use plaintext. That'd be 77, including spaces and punctuation. -- This blackhat thing looks like a honeypot a little. Or like a meeting of nuns and hookers to discuss sex. Georgi Guninski From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 07:51:03 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Fp3P23288 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 07:51:03 -0800 (PST) From: shades2@iinet.net.au To: Trey Harris Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 23:43:45 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? CC: "Randal L. Schwartz" , shades2@iinet.net.au, Anthony Howe , sage-members@usenix.org Message-ID: <3E653A31.9659.1BFF80D@localhost> References: <2401.1046789654@mental.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Probably the reason I've gotten into the bad habit of cat foobar | Sometimes certain Unix tools don't always act as expected when a redirection occurs, some like to embellish, when in fact you just want the real deal, not a tool mangled version of it. Of course you expect sed, grep and awk to do the right thing... In saying this, if I see an opportunity to optimise a script by removing cat I'll do so, after checking that the resultant output hasn't been altered in some way by a redirection. The example script was written in under one minute, my apologies for not saving your cycles, optimisation is left as an exercise to the reader. Any serious program, (say where you have 1000 users running it) that is going to minimise use of CPU cycles should of course be written in Perl or C, not script. On 4 Mar 2003 at 10:11, Trey Harris wrote: > In a message dated Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Alexander Lobodzinski writes: > > > () won yourself a "Useless Use of Cat Award"... > > () > > () I'm still amazed people do this. Where does this idiom come from, of > > () cat with a single argument? Is it a windows thing backported to Unix? > > > > Well... Did you know this one? > > > > lobo@twen /h/toast/lobo 28> diff .cshrc ../.snapshot/weekly.3/lobo/.cshrc > > lobo@twen /h/toast/lobo 29> diff - ../.snapshot/weekly.3/lobo/.cshrc < .cshrc > > lobo@twen /h/toast/lobo 30> cat .cshrc | diff - ../.snapshot/weekly.3/lobo/.cshrc > > 421d420 > > < case "glix": > > Exit 1 > > lobo@twen /h/toast/lobo 31> > > > > Files in Netapp snapshots have inode numbers identical to the real > > files and (Solaris) diff is just a little too smart. > > Those last two command lines are fascinating to me. In the first case, > diff examines the inode number of the file descriptor and can thus > conclude it's the same file as the second one, while in the second case, > you're using the output of cat, which doesn't have an inode number, so > diff is forced to compare the text. > > What a lovely--though possibly evil--technical interview question for a > junior-bucking-for-senior candidate! :-) > > Trey > -- > I'm looking for work. If you need a SAGE Level IV with 10 years Perl, > tool development, training, and architecture experience, please email me > at trey@sage.org. I'm willing to relocate for the right opportunity. > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 08:36:47 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24GalM24038 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:36:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200303041636.IAA02175@biz.compata.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.3 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Mar 2003 10:00:44 EST." From: Dave Close X-message-flag: Did you know MS Outlook is evil? X-Face: $?&5f7w4GjUJOb-[FmngebA}V`5Dv)QEdHg|d%mytVRm]'o}*{J6:PP%(LfN LmOcb#>"^wDF*|ZzuS??S*vLH[.miV( I'm still amazed people do this. Where does this idiom come from, of > cat with a single argument? Is it a windows thing backported to Unix? Trey Harris wrote: >I suspect it comes from confusion about which utilities can take both >stdin and a filename, and which insist on stdin. I sense some confusion here. The alternative is not using a file name argument, it is using redirection a la "<". Which Unix utility accepts stdin but does not accept redirection? Luke Hankins wrote: >I just grepped through some of my scripts and it looks like I overuse cat >slightly more than half the time. Off the top of my head, here's why: >- It makes a pipeline act like a pipeline, in that things go in at the > front and come out the back. Donno, but that feels cleaner to me. When I was first introduced to Unix and the concept of redirection, I had a mental block related to this. It did seem more natural to put an input file before a command name, so I pictured syntax like this, stdin < command > stdout This also made more sense initially because the context of the discussion was pipelining, connecting stdout to stdin of the next process. I pictured (warning, mono-pitch font required for proper viewing), stdin1 < command1 > stdout1 | stdin2 < command2 > stdout2 \--------------------/ (replaced by) | Still, even as a Unix neophyte, I could see the simple first case above would be ambiguous if redirection was not used. It took a few minutes for the reality to sink in. -- Dave Close, Compata, Costa Mesa CA "A difference has to make a dave@compata.com, +1 714 434 7359 difference in order to be a dhclose@alumni.caltech.edu difference." --Wendell Johnson From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 08:42:48 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Ggmc24305 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:42:48 -0800 (PST) To: Anthony Howe Cc: sage Members Subject: In defense of HTML mail (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) References: <200303041509.KAA27918@kalanit.umd.edu> <3E64C766.8060202@snert.com> From: Darrell Fuhriman Date: 04 Mar 2003 08:44:40 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3E64C766.8060202@snert.com> Message-ID: Lines: 47 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Honest Recruiter) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Anthony Howe writes: > Outlook and Mozilla come with HTML email enable by default :( Really > annoys me, since most people don't use teh extra features havlf teh > time. I think I'm asking for it here, but I don't think HTML e-mail is all that bad, as long as there's a multipart text version included. I never send it, and I never read it, but if others want to, then so what? I think the space argument is silly, especially in these days where hundred Gb drives are going for right around $1/GB[1]. Every single e-mail I've sent or (non-list mail) received in the last 9 years takes a total 412Mb. Even if that were three times the size, it would still take barely $1 worth of storage. Now, I am *fully* aware that storage in an enterprise is not that cheap, when backups, redundancy, performance, etc. is thrown into the mix. But to my argument I would add: If enough users feel they have a legitimate need for a service, like HTML e-mail, then we, as admins, have an obligation to provide that service. My other counter arguments would include: HTML *does* provide a useful feature set to the user. I, personally, would love a *proper* bold and italic, which text-only does not provide. Are many of these features abused? Absolutely. But then, we can't get folks to use text-only mail the "right" way, either. People were producing ugly, unreadable, text-only e-mail long before HTML existed. Text-only e-mail is a very American(and lesser extent European)-centric format. The requirement that we forever mess around with different character sets, some with multiple encodings, when there is now one encoding that will handle this for us, seems absurd to me. In short, times change, often in ways we don't like. That's life. You can fight it, or embrace it, or remain adamantly agnostic, times are still going to change. Darrell From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 08:51:56 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Gpu624654 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:51:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:51:54 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris To: Dave Close Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-Reply-To: <200303041636.IAA02175@biz.compata.com> Message-ID: References: <200303041636.IAA02175@biz.compata.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Dave Close writes: > Randal L. Schwartz writes: > > I'm still amazed people do this. Where does this idiom come from, of > > cat with a single argument? Is it a windows thing backported to Unix? > > Trey Harris wrote: > > >I suspect it comes from confusion about which utilities can take both > >stdin and a filename, and which insist on stdin. > > I sense some confusion here. The alternative is not using a file name > argument, it is using redirection a la "<". Which Unix utility accepts > stdin but does not accept redirection? Oh, sure. I was operating from the assumption that "cat foo |" and "< foo" are roughly synonymous, the interesting counterexample just provided on this list notwithstanding! I assumed Randal would have the same problem with superfluous use of "<" as with "cat |", though I might be wrong. Trey -- I'm looking for work. If you need a SAGE Level IV with 10 years Perl, tool development, training, and architecture experience, please email me at trey@sage.org. I'm willing to relocate for the right opportunity. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 08:55:35 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24GtZR24792 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:55:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:56:55 -0600 From: Pete Ehlke To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: In defense of HTML mail (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <20030304165655.GA96549@rfc822.net> References: <200303041509.KAA27918@kalanit.umd.edu> <3E64C766.8060202@snert.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 08:44:40AM -0800, Darrell Fuhriman wrote: > Anthony Howe writes: > > > Outlook and Mozilla come with HTML email enable by default :( Really > > annoys me, since most people don't use teh extra features havlf teh > > time. > > > I think I'm asking for it here, but I don't think HTML e-mail is > all that bad, as long as there's a multipart text version included. > > I never send it, and I never read it, but if others want to, then > so what? > I still hate it, but html mail is a fact of life. Much like top-posting, it's distasteful to me but sort of inescapable. I finally stopped cutting off my nose to spite my face. In my .muttrc: # stuff to clean up html set implicit_autoview # use autoview, if a "copiousoutput" is in mailcap. set mailcap_sanitize # remove ugly chars from mailcap % expands. alternative_order text/enriched text/plain auto_view text/html # view text/html using mailcap entry And .mailcap: text/html; /usr/local/bin/lynx -dump -force_html %s; copiousoutput;nametemplate=%s.html -P. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 08:56:47 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Gulo24900 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:56:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: krabbtop.int.diraba.de: bb set sender to gabriel.krabbe@dab.com using -f Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 17:52:43 +0100 From: Gabriel Krabbe To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030304165243.GT23718@idefix.rtfs.de> References: <20030303213523.G3921@gwyn.tux.org> <3E64EFEC.6659.9DD8EF@localhost> <86r89ntdha.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <86r89ntdha.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Organization: rtfs IT Services X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 06:26:09AM -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>> "shades2" == shades2 writes: > > shades2> cat infile.html | sed -e 's:<[^>]*>::g' > outfile.txt > > And if this were comp.unix.questions, you would have just won > yourself a "Useless Use of Cat Award"... > > > > I'm still amazed people do this. Where does this idiom come from, of > cat with a single argument? Is it a windows thing backported to Unix? In at least many cases when I do it, it's an iterative thing. Visualise a pipeline being created by running a command, then editing the commandline, and it comes naturally: $ cat file ah, some mangling needed: $ cat file | sed -e 's/trailing junk$/reasonableness/' getting better: $ cat file | sed -e 's/trailing junk$/reasonableness/' | tr A-Z a-z .. and then hit "v" to get it into vi, and save as a script. Sure, the "cat" command is entirely superfluous, but it's not there out of malice or ignorance, just laziness. Gabe From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 09:11:02 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24HB1825625 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:11:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:16:07 -0500 From: Jan Schaumann To: sage Members Subject: Re: In defense of HTML mail (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <20030304171607.GA13183@netmeister.org> Mail-Followup-To: sage Members References: <200303041509.KAA27918@kalanit.umd.edu> <3E64C766.8060202@snert.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Darrell Fuhriman wrote: > HTML *does* provide a useful feature set to the user. I, > personally, would love a *proper* bold and italic, which > text-only does not provide. Oh, but it *does*. Uh, /does/. Yes, _really_. ,----[ in ~/.muttrc ] | # bold | color body brightyellow default [\*]+[[:alnum:]+]+[\*]+ | # italics | color body magenta default [\/]+[[:alnum:]+]+[\/]+ | # underline | color body brightcyan default _+[[:alnum:]+]+_+ | # smileys | color body black yellow [\:\;]+[-\)P\\\/\}]+ `---- :-) -- I seem to be having this tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 09:35:18 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24HZIn26200 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:35:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:35:10 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Kathy Penn cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-Reply-To: <200303041509.KAA27918@kalanit.umd.edu> Message-ID: <20030304123104.F39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Kathy Penn wrote: > I detest HMTL e-mail also, and deleting HTML-only messages seems to > make sense, but don't you get mail from friends, relatives, and even > the occasional idiot manager that is both text and HTML? > (The "you" is general there.) Actually by and large, no. I train my mailing list users and my relatives to use text only email, as being the most widely supported - and taking the least amount of time to download over a slow connection. All of the mailing lists that I run have an explicit policy of treating HTML as spam (since that's what a good 95% of it is). cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 09:36:38 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24HacY26285 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:36:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: morpheus.lapseofthought.com: nobody set sender to drich@employees.org using -f Message-ID: <43779.63.237.201.12.1046799380.squirrel@www.lapseofthought.com> In-Reply-To: References: <200303041509.KAA27918@kalanit.umd.edu><3E64C766.8060202@snert.com> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:36:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: In defense of HTML mail (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) From: "Dan Rich" To: "Darrell Fuhriman" Cc: "Anthony Howe" , "sage Members" Reply-To: drich@employees.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.0 RC2a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-73.4 required=6.0 tests=AWL,IN_REP_TO,MSG_ID_ADDED_BY_MTA_3,PRIORITY_NO_NAME, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,USER_AGENT, WORK_AT_HOME,X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.42 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Darrell Fuhriman said: > Anthony Howe writes: > >> Outlook and Mozilla come with HTML email enable by default :( Really >> annoys me, since most people don't use teh extra features havlf teh >> time. > I think the space argument is silly, especially in these days > where hundred Gb drives are going for right around $1/GB[1]. > Every single e-mail I've sent or (non-list mail) received in the > last 9 years takes a total 412Mb. Even if that were three times > the size, it would still take barely $1 worth of storage. >From my point of view it's not so much as space argument as a bandwidth argument. When I'm at work or at home I don't care I have a big pipe at both locations. However, if I'm reading my e-mail via dialup I really don't want to have to download the message twice -- especially if it's Micro$oft's bloated idea of what html should look like (they really like adding font tags everywhere). > But to my argument I would add: If enough users feel they have a > legitimate need for a service, like HTML e-mail, then we, as > admins, have an obligation to provide that service. Yes and no. We have the obligation to provide the service if and when the service furthers the needs of the business. Not just because a user wants it. > My other counter arguments would include: > > HTML *does* provide a useful feature set to the user. I, > personally, would love a *proper* bold and italic, which > text-only does not provide. But richtext does, and at a much lower overhead than HTML. The only real use I've seen for html adding links in the spam mail so spammers can tell when they've hit a valid e-mail list. > Text-only e-mail is a very American(and lesser extent > European)-centric format. The requirement that we forever mess > around with different character sets, some with multiple > encodings, when there is now one encoding that will handle this > for us, seems absurd to me. Again, you don't need HTML for that. In fact, it's even tougher to do in HTML than it is using richtext and/or the proper encodings. (if you want more info there I'll have to punt to one of my coworkers -- he's our resident i18n expert). > In short, times change, often in ways we don't like. That's > life. You can fight it, or embrace it, or remain adamantly > agnostic, times are still going to change. The one constant is change -- can't argue with that! :) -- Dan Rich | http://www.employees.org/~drich/ | "Step up to red alert!" "Are you sure, sir? | It means changing the bulb in the sign..." | - Red Dwarf (BBC) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 09:38:43 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Hchr26404 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:38:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:38:13 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Trey Harris cc: Alexander Lobodzinski , "Randal L. Schwartz" , , Anthony Howe , Subject: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Trey Harris wrote: > What a lovely--though possibly evil--technical interview question for a > junior-bucking-for-senior candidate! :-) ...so speaking of evil questions, what are some of folks favourite evil questions to ask (or that you've been asked?). A recently nicely evil question that I ran into - program 'hello world' in three languages[0]. cheers! [0] Not in and of itself difficult, but generally disconcerting to the scripter. ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 09:47:52 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Hlq027064 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:47:52 -0800 (PST) To: Trey Harris Cc: Dave Close , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? References: <200303041636.IAA02175@biz.compata.com> From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: 04 Mar 2003 09:47:49 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <86wujfrpkq.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Lines: 39 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Trey" == Trey Harris writes: Trey> Oh, sure. I was operating from the assumption that "cat foo |" and "< Trey> foo" are roughly synonymous, the interesting counterexample just provided Trey> on this list notwithstanding! I assumed Randal would have the same Trey> problem with superfluous use of "<" as with "cat |", though I might be Trey> wrong. You're wrong. :) It's the wasted cat process that I rant about. In fact, here's the text of the UUOCA, which you can probably find a few dozen times via dejagoogle: And of course, if you've been following along for a week or two, you know that this (BING!) is a Useless Use of Cat! Rememeber, nearly all cases where you have: cat file | some_command and its args ... you can rewrite it as: Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 09:50:37 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Hoaa27295 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:50:36 -0800 (PST) To: Gabriel Krabbe Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? References: <20030303213523.G3921@gwyn.tux.org> <3E64EFEC.6659.9DD8EF@localhost> <86r89ntdha.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <20030304165243.GT23718@idefix.rtfs.de> From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: 04 Mar 2003 09:50:34 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20030304165243.GT23718@idefix.rtfs.de> Message-ID: <86smu3rpg5.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Lines: 27 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Gabriel" == Gabriel Krabbe writes: Gabriel> In at least many cases when I do it, it's an iterative thing. Visualise Gabriel> a pipeline being created by running a command, then editing the Gabriel> commandline, and it comes naturally: Gabriel> $ cat file Gabriel> ah, some mangling needed: See that's where I get lost. Why did you even *start* the pipeline with a cat? I never would have thought of that. That's why I get confused when I see "cat $single_filename" at the head of a pipe. cat has two purposes... 1) to con-*cat*-enate multiple files [obsolete, replaced by more/less] 2) to pump a file to the terminal I'd never think of cat for anything else. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 10:00:46 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24I0jP27993 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:00:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: krabbtop.int.diraba.de: bb set sender to gabriel.krabbe@dab.com using -f Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 18:56:08 +0100 From: Gabriel Krabbe To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <20030304175608.GV23718@idefix.rtfs.de> References: <20030303213523.G3921@gwyn.tux.org> <3E64EFEC.6659.9DD8EF@localhost> <86r89ntdha.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <20030304165243.GT23718@idefix.rtfs.de> <86smu3rpg5.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <86smu3rpg5.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Organization: rtfs IT Services X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 09:50:34AM -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>> "Gabriel" == Gabriel Krabbe writes: [...] > Gabriel> $ cat file > Gabriel> ah, some mangling needed: > > See that's where I get lost. Why did you even *start* the pipeline > with a cat? Because I'm at the command line: > [obsolete, replaced by more/less] 2) to pump a file to the terminal and don't (yet) know just what I'm going to do to the file. The command dlines I gave are all executed, then edited. And since I use vi mode and am rather lazy, "ESC k A | whatever" creates the pipeline that I know will eventually have at least another bit stuck on its end just a touch more easily (for me) than "ESC i whatever ESC A | somethingelse". In emacs (mode), life may be different. Plus, just adding bits as needed means I have to think less about how I do it and concentrate on what I want sed or awk or whatever to achieve. Setting out to write something as a script is a different matter from saving my commandline for re-use; cat gets used in '(echo foo ; cat file ; echo bar) | while read ..' constructs and similar cases. Oh, and to concatenate. Unless I have a mindless day and can think only unidirectionally - generally every day before coffee. Gabe From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 10:03:42 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24I3g828139 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:03:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: krabbtop.int.diraba.de: bb set sender to gabriel.krabbe@dab.com using -f Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 18:59:40 +0100 From: Gabriel Krabbe To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <20030304175940.GW23718@idefix.rtfs.de> References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Organization: rtfs IT Services X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 12:38:13PM -0500, Cat Okita wrote: > On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Trey Harris wrote: >> What a lovely--though possibly evil--technical interview question for a >> junior-bucking-for-senior candidate! :-) > > ...so speaking of evil questions, what are some of folks favourite > evil questions to ask (or that you've been asked?). > > A recently nicely evil question that I ran into - program 'hello world' > in three languages[0]. > > cheers! > [0] Not in and of itself difficult, but generally disconcerting to the > scripter. ----- #!/bin/sh echo "Guten Tag, Welt!" echo "Hello, World!" echo "Bonjour, monde!" ----- Maybe not what was intended, but my instinctive reaction. Unfortunately, I have no good (as in humorous) answer to your actual question. All technical questions I've been asked were either useful-but-kinda-basic or so utterly contrived to make me tell the interviewer as much. Now, in a LISA gameshow... Gabe From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 10:03:47 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24I3lJ28191 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:03:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200303041752.h24HqoL27841@jas.peak.org> To: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-reply-to: Your message of 04 Mar 2003 09:50:34 PST. <86smu3rpg5.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 09:52:50 -0800 From: John Sechrest X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk % Gabriel> a pipeline being created by running a command, then editing the % Gabriel> commandline, and it comes naturally: % Gabriel> $ cat file % Gabriel> ah, some mangling needed: % See that's where I get lost. Why did you even *start* the pipeline % with a cat? I never would have thought of that. That's why I get % confused when I see "cat $single_filename" at the head of a pipe. I don't often use cat in the way outlined, but I know how I got to the use that I apply it to. I have some things on my personal machine, which I do my work on. then when I am at one job site or another, I may want to print on their printer. they don't often go out of thier way to set up printing for me, so I can't say: lpr -P remote printer file to work. so I find that I say: cat file | ssh remote-host lpr Which does what I want. This is different than ssh remote-host lpr file Totally different semantic meaning. But I suppose that cat file | ssh remote-host lpr and ssh remote-host lpr < file are semantically equivelant. ----- John Sechrest . Helping people use CTO PEAK - . computers and the Internet Public Electronic . more effectively Access to Knowledge,Inc . 1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325 . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 10:04:20 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24I4Jj28396 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:04:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:05:37 -0600 From: Pete Ehlke To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <20030304180537.GB96581@rfc822.net> References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 12:38:13PM -0500, Cat Okita wrote: > On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Trey Harris wrote: > > What a lovely--though possibly evil--technical interview question for a > > junior-bucking-for-senior candidate! :-) > > ...so speaking of evil questions, what are some of folks favourite > evil questions to ask (or that you've been asked?). > > A recently nicely evil question that I ran into - program 'hello world' > in three languages[0]. > "There's a whiteboard. Here's a marker. Draw the internet." The range of responses, and approaches to them, are *astounding*. -P. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 10:07:00 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24I6ww28718 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:06:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: goodall.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:06:48 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: Cat Okita cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) In-Reply-To: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.3 required=5.1 tests=CARRIAGE_RETURNS,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, SPAM_PHRASE_02_03,USER_AGENT_PINE,X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.43 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Cat Okita wrote: > On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Trey Harris wrote: > > What a lovely--though possibly evil--technical interview question for a > > junior-bucking-for-senior candidate! :-) > > ...so speaking of evil questions, what are some of folks favourite > evil questions to ask (or that you've been asked?). > > A recently nicely evil question that I ran into - program 'hello world' > in three languages[0]. > does sh, ksh and csh count? ;) hmm. been a while. can't remember specifically evil questions myself.. PTSD? :) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 10:09:25 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24I9Pp29195 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:09:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: morpheus.lapseofthought.com: nobody set sender to drich@employees.org using -f Message-ID: <51489.63.237.201.12.1046801341.squirrel@www.lapseofthought.com> In-Reply-To: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:09:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) From: "Dan Rich" To: "Cat Okita" Cc: "Trey Harris" , "Alexander Lobodzinski" , "Randal L. Schwartz" , shades2@iinet.net.au, "Anthony Howe" , sage-members@usenix.org Reply-To: drich@employees.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.0 RC2a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-74.6 required=6.0 tests=AWL,IN_REP_TO,MSG_ID_ADDED_BY_MTA_3,PRIORITY_NO_NAME, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_03_05,USER_AGENT, X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.42 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Cat Okita said: > On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Trey Harris wrote: >> What a lovely--though possibly evil--technical interview question for a >> junior-bucking-for-senior candidate! :-) > > ...so speaking of evil questions, what are some of folks favourite > evil questions to ask (or that you've been asked?). > > A recently nicely evil question that I ran into - program 'hello world' > in three languages[0]. I like the ones we used to use at Dialogic many years ago. We used these for every SW engineering candidate (including sysadmin) not so much to see what their answers were, but to see how they approached and solved the problem. 1. Implement strcmp() -- pseudo code ok, C preferred (we had one person who did it in a single line, it makes one assumption about the optimizer though, and he at least knew that! :) ) 2. A circular queue question (keyboard connected to a serial printer, code the buffer in the middle) -- it's amazing how many people can't handle boundry conditions 3. Implement an argv parser (basically getopt()), again, pseudo code ok (we only used this on senior applicants -- and me for some reason :) ) My favorite for sysadmins is still "How do you remove a file whose name starts with a '-'?". To this day I'm surprised by how many sysadmin candidates either don't know that it doesn't work to type "rm -filename", or don't know enough about getopt() to use "rm -- -filename". Admittedly, it can be fun to see how many different answers you get.... -- Dan Rich | http://www.employees.org/~drich/ | "Step up to red alert!" "Are you sure, sir? | It means changing the bulb in the sign..." | - Red Dwarf (BBC) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 10:34:23 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24IYMa00207 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:34:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:34:02 -0600 From: "Mark D. Roth" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <20030304123402.A17317@yorktown.isdn.uiuc.edu> References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org>; from cat@reptiles.org on Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 12:38:13PM -0500 Organization: Feep Networks X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue Mar 04 12:38 2003 -0500, Cat Okita wrote: > On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Trey Harris wrote: > > What a lovely--though possibly evil--technical interview question for a > > junior-bucking-for-senior candidate! :-) > > ...so speaking of evil questions, what are some of folks favourite > evil questions to ask (or that you've been asked?). I'm not sure how "evil" this is, but I was once asked what the difference is between a system call and a library call. It's a pretty basic thing, but it's really amazing how many sysadmins don't know what the basic parts of Unix are or how they fit together. -- Mark D. Roth http://www.feep.net/~roth/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 10:36:26 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24IaQ700353 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:36:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200303041836.h24IaNE24561@left.wing.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Mar 2003 12:25:09 +0100." <3E648D15.80502@snert.com> X-Organization: Left Wing Computing X-Face: "LX60V1[A=EN[jjZKY=&,"HB8ahM8?VoL; =Y8oj4%JV\F"4sfgV*; 8GgAk!3]}5OmF$/Njv jvRHqNwtZa7yO^g]9+<)e)'EL0?oPqczWF/"+d:XldxB"aLI.D_\|^e4F X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > cat junk.html | sed \ > -e '/<[^>]*$/,/^[^>]*>/ { > N > s/<[^>]*$// > s/^[^>]*>// > P > D > }'\ > -e 's/<[^>]*>//g' >outfile.txt But you lose all the added coolness by wasting a process. What's cat doing there? What's wrong with sed [expressions] < infile > outfile or even sed [expressions] infile > outfile I've seen way too many examples over the years of the form cat filename | processor where processor < filename would suffice. The only case I can imagine where using cat would be justified is if multiple input files must be processed *and* "processor" does not take filename arguments on the command line (or, if, somehow, multiple filenames on the command line are processed differently from a single large file). --Ed From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 10:40:27 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24IeRI00758 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:40:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:40:18 -0500 From: Matthew SAMS To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? Message-ID: <20030304184018.GA9769@cs.mcgill.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030301184159.0572d7f8@mail.puryear-it.com> <1046626807.20498.4.camel@rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net> <3E62498D.5000000@ryu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E62498D.5000000@ryu.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Mar 02, 2003 at 12:12:29PM -0600, John R. S. Mascio wrote: > BTW: I'm almost done with my MBA to tackle this exact type of problem. > I may become less technical over time, as I become more managerial, but > there are becoming more and more of us in the management ranks because > we see the value of what we do and want to make sure it is done right, > for the next generation of systems managers. hear hear! Most of my recent training has been geared towards less technical areas. I've spent 12 years building a technical base and have all but ignored the softer skill areas. Watching budgets and people get cut because I can't convince people otherwise is frustrating to say the least. -Matthew From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 10:44:34 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24IiY801069 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:44:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:44:31 -0500 From: Matthew SAMS To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <20030304184431.GB9769@cs.mcgill.ca> References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 12:38:13PM -0500, Cat Okita wrote: > ...so speaking of evil questions, what are some of folks favourite > evil questions to ask (or that you've been asked?). "What's the dumbest thing you've ever done at work?" If it's not truly spectacular the person is either covering up or has never had any real responsibility. I always add the 'at work' portion since while sleeping with your brother's girlfriend may be stupid it's not really related to your suitability for working with me. -Matthew From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 10:49:10 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24In9j01399 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:49:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 10:49:05 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Pete Ehlke cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Message-ID: <39050000.1046803745@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <20030304151309.GA96150@rfc822.net> References: <20030303213523.G3921@gwyn.tux.org> <3E64EFEC.6659.9DD8EF@localhost> <86r89ntdha.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <20030304151309.GA96150@rfc822.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --On Tuesday, March 04, 2003 09:13:09 -0600 Pete Ehlke wrote: > Nobody seems to care about cycles and optimization any more. It's > cheaper to just go shopping than it is to write efficient software. Hardware has been getting faster and faster, and software has been getting slower and slower, for at least 35 years to my certain knowledge. And the software is winning, alas! The only hope I see of this changing is the low-power requirement in many portable devices, which once again makes efficiency have some value. Until the batteries get a lot better. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 10:52:34 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24IqX201650 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:52:33 -0800 (PST) To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Reply-To: "Sean J. Schluntz" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 03 Mar 2003 09:10:06 CST." <20030303091006.A14498@yorktown.isdn.uiuc.edu> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 10:52:28 -0800 Message-ID: <1201.1046803948@workofstone.com> From: "Sean J. Schluntz" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In message <20030303091006.A14498@yorktown.isdn.uiuc.edu>, "Mark D. Roth" writ es: >On Mon Mar 03 13:20 2003 +0000, Ade Rixon wrote: >> Finding out that one of your favourite utilities does even more than you >> suspected, via an option you were previously unaware of, is pretty cool: > >There's an old saying that there are no two people that know the exact >same subset of Unix commands. In my experience, that's definitely >proven to be true. A teacher I had in CompSci years ago had a great idea. Every day (or week if you're really busy) randomly pick a command in the UNIX system and read the man page. Not just skim it, but really read it and learn all about the tool (of course some tools need a bit more than a days read of the man page to learn :) but you get the drift). You can find new functions in tools you have been using for years that way. Funny enough, that lead in to a lesson in picking sudo-random files from the file system in perl (looking for random man pages). Don't you just love how teacher stories turn in to programmign assignments :) -Sean From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 10:58:26 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24IwQ602072 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:58:26 -0800 (PST) To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: Michael Steeves Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Reply-To: "Sean J. Schluntz" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 03 Mar 2003 20:38:33 EST." <20030303203833.A364@nautilus.shore.net> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 10:58:22 -0800 Message-ID: <1243.1046804302@workofstone.com> From: "Sean J. Schluntz" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >> PuTTY. When layer 8 imposes a M$ desktop, this ssh/telnet >> client is the reason it can work. Stick Hummingbird's X >> server on the pc, and ssh can tunnel X, and it is almost >> like being there. And it is free. If it did sco-ansi and >> tn3270 it would be killer. > > >Actually, I'm becoming fond of CygWin (http://www.cygwin.com), which >provides not only ssh, but a lot of other "Unix" commands, as well as >an X-emulator, and is free (under GPL, actually, but still...). CygWin is a lifesaver at work for me. With the company imposed XP system and no-one willing to drop a dime on an X server for the box CygWin and it's rootless X-Server are a true blessing for us Unix admins. -Sean From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 11:02:36 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24J2ax02384 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:02:36 -0800 (PST) To: Pete Ehlke Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <20030304180537.GB96581@rfc822.net> From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: 04 Mar 2003 11:02:34 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20030304180537.GB96581@rfc822.net> Message-ID: <86bs0rrm45.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Pete" == Pete Ehlke writes: Pete> "There's a whiteboard. Here's a marker. Draw the internet." That's simple. Every one knows it's a big cloud. That is, I've seen that darn cloud on every single marketdroid drawing for every product that interfaces somehow to the Internet. For grins, I add drops of rain coming out of the cloud. Nobody ever asks. Or maybe the sun peeking around the corner. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 11:02:58 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24J2vI02474 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:02:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:02:43 -0500 From: Christophe Kalt To: Pete Ehlke Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <20030304140243.A12950@bzz.taranis.org> References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <20030304180537.GB96581@rfc822.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030304180537.GB96581@rfc822.net>; from pde@rfc822.net on Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 12:05:37PM -0600 X-Spring: flower X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mar 04, Pete Ehlke wrote: | "There's a whiteboard. Here's a marker. Draw the internet." | | The range of responses, and approaches to them, are *astounding*. Nice, i used to simply ask "What is the internet?" which also gives a wide range of answers. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 11:03:30 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24J3US02587 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:03:30 -0800 (PST) To: Matthew SAMS Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <20030304184431.GB9769@cs.mcgill.ca> From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: 04 Mar 2003 11:03:28 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20030304184431.GB9769@cs.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: <867kbfrm2n.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Matthew" == Matthew SAMS writes: Matthew> "What's the dumbest thing you've ever done at work?" Mine's well-documented... -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 11:07:13 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24J7Cj03047 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:07:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:06:40 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris To: "Randal L. Schwartz" Cc: Pete Ehlke , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) In-Reply-To: <86bs0rrm45.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <20030304180537.GB96581@rfc822.net> <86bs0rrm45.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Randal L. Schwartz writes: > >>>>> "Pete" == Pete Ehlke writes: > > Pete> "There's a whiteboard. Here's a marker. Draw the internet." > > That's simple. Every one knows it's a big cloud. > > That is, I've seen that darn cloud on every single marketdroid drawing > for every product that interfaces somehow to the Internet. > > For grins, I add drops of rain coming out of the cloud. Nobody ever > asks. Or maybe the sun peeking around the corner. Is that why in internal network diagrams, the link to the Internet is often drawn like a lightning bolt? Trey From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 11:09:05 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24J95W03314 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:09:05 -0800 (PST) To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? Reply-To: "Sean J. Schluntz" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Mar 2003 10:06:13 EST." <20030304150613.GA55746@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 11:09:01 -0800 Message-ID: <1299.1046804941@workofstone.com> From: "Sean J. Schluntz" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In message <20030304150613.GA55746@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>, Steve Simmons writes: >Randal L. Schwartz writes: > >> I'm still amazed people do this. Where does this idiom come from, of >> cat with a single argument? Is it a windows thing backported to Unix? > >No, it's a legacy unix training thing. Most trainers (including me) >start by illustrating very simple pipelines with stuff like > > cat foo | grep bar > >Unfortunately this immediately fixes the 'cat foo |' idiom in a lot of >people brains. Well, there are some tools that just don't work correctly with out cat. cat foo | gzip | ssh user@somewhere "cat > file.gz" works where gzip < foo | ssh user@somewhere "cat > file.gz" does not. Sure there are command line arguments to get gzip to read from a file and then dump to stdout. But with older versions of gzip it will barf on 2+gig files (which it doesn't on pipes) and if you don't remember the flags it's faster to cat than to man gzip. -Sean From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 11:12:42 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24JCg903812 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:12:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200303041912.OAA3369186@shell.TheWorld.com> Subject: [SAGE] Re: Evil Interview Questions To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:12:38 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> from "Cat Okita" at Mar 04, 2003 12:38:13 PM From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Cat Okita asked: > what are some of folks favourite evil questions to ask (or that you've > been asked?). I don't believe in asking "evil" questions, nor do I think they add value to an interview. The questions I ask are designed either to see how much the candidate knows about a particular subject, or to see how they think about problems and how they approach solving problems. I'm far more interested in how well a candidate understands a particular technology or area (say, subnets and subnet masks) than I am in how much arcana they know. Now, if I think a candidate is bluffing I might ask more detailed questions, but almost always about more specific/lower-level details, but not necessarily obscure details. Or, I a candidate gives a completely wrong answer I might ask more detailed questions designed to help them realize their error. The closest I get to a "gotcha" is when I ask about subnets, and I say I want "at least six subnets"; I expect them to know enough to ask/say "you can have four or eight, but not exactly six -- how many do you want me to use in my answer." All my other tricky questions are problem-solving questions, and show me how the candidate thinks about getting to the answer. When asked "evil" questions, I almost always ask the user (in a polite and non-challenging way) "why do you want me to know the answer" or "what are you really trying to ask" or "why do you think knowing the answer is of value?" Or, I fall back on the line Elizabeth Zwicky and I independently came up with: "You're paying me too much to know the answer to that question." AdamM From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 11:13:13 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24JDDS03930 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:13:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.5 Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 14:03:39 -0500 From: "John Boris" To: "<" Subject: Re: [SAGE] System administration a scam? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id h24JDCs03927 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Most of my working career I have been involved in some sort of System Administration. Although in a different field I was a Maintenance Mechanic for the US Mint. To give it the elevator speech, a small steel mill. That was my system I administered. All of us were considered to be expendable and a "necessary evil. Why? Because when the Managers saw us in action there wasn't any product coming out the other end. They saw workers idle, machines idle and now coins being produced. Changing professions and now as a Sysadmin it is the same thing. When attention is drawn to me it is because a system is down and work can't be performed. At LISA'02 in here in Philly I sat through a session just on this topic where the panel told the audience to "Sell yourself". Sometimes we are our worst enemy. You have to be proactive and let people (Your users and Managers) know what goes on between crashes. One of the people on the panel was a Marketing Person (her name escapes me) but she said just that. Let people know that you do more than just put out fires. A little marketing goes a long way in removing the "necessary evil" moniker. John J. Boris, Sr. "Just keep in mind that the light at the end of that tunnel just might be the headlight of an oncomng train." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 11:21:55 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24JLsR04497 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:21:54 -0800 (PST) To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: adamm@menlo.com Subject: Re: [SAGE] Re: Evil Interview Questions Reply-To: "Sean J. Schluntz" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Mar 2003 14:12:38 EST." <200303041912.OAA3369186@shell.TheWorld.com> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 11:21:50 -0800 Message-ID: <1549.1046805710@workofstone.com> From: "Sean J. Schluntz" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >The closest I get to a "gotcha" is when I ask about subnets, and I say >I want "at least six subnets"; I expect them to know enough to ask/say >"you can have four or eight, but not exactly six -- how many do you want >me to use in my answer." Eh? Why can't you have six? Doesn't it depend on how your route it? I've setup networks with 3 subnets before. 64ip in DMZ1, 64ip in DMZ2 and 128 in internal. All from one class C. Isn't that three subnets? No reason you can't have six, they just arn't all the same size :) -Sean From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 11:27:55 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24JRrM04825 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:27:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:27:38 -0500 From: Luke Hankins To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <20030304192738.GZ4262@ethersmith.com> References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk * Cat Okita wrote: > ...so speaking of evil questions, what are some of folks favourite > evil questions to ask (or that you've been asked?). "List ten ways to get a text file from machine A to machine B." You get a good idea of what areas they're comfortable with, which tools are in short-term storage in their heads and, toward the end of the list, which weird things they've worked with in the past. (For instance, if someone says "pigeons" and can cite the RFC, well, that's a good sign.) -Luke From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 11:31:27 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24JVRD05153 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:31:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:32:45 -0600 From: Pete Ehlke To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Re: Evil Interview Questions Message-ID: <20030304193245.GA97195@rfc822.net> References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <200303041912.OAA3369186@shell.TheWorld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200303041912.OAA3369186@shell.TheWorld.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 02:12:38PM -0500, Adam S. Moskowitz wrote: > > The closest I get to a "gotcha" is when I ask about subnets, and I say > I want "at least six subnets"; I expect them to know enough to ask/say > "you can have four or eight, but not exactly six -- how many do you want > me to use in my answer." > Hmmmm... What modern unix-like OS does not handle VLSMs? -P. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 11:36:46 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24JakM05517 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:36:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: goodall.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:36:40 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: "Adam S. Moskowitz" cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Re: Evil Interview Questions In-Reply-To: <200303041912.OAA3369186@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=5.1 tests=CARRIAGE_RETURNS,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, SPAM_PHRASE_03_05,USER_AGENT_PINE,X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.43 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Adam S. Moskowitz wrote: > Cat Okita asked: > > what are some of folks favourite evil questions to ask (or that you've > > been asked?). > > I don't believe in asking "evil" questions, nor do I think they add > value to an interview. > > The questions I ask are designed either to see how much the candidate > knows about a particular subject, or to see how they think about > problems and how they approach solving problems. I'm far more interested > in how well a candidate understands a particular technology or area > (say, subnets and subnet masks) than I am in how much arcana they know. > > Now, if I think a candidate is bluffing I might ask more detailed > questions, but almost always about more specific/lower-level details, > but not necessarily obscure details. Or, I a candidate gives a > completely wrong answer I might ask more detailed questions designed to > help them realize their error. > > The closest I get to a "gotcha" is when I ask about subnets, and I say > I want "at least six subnets"; I expect them to know enough to ask/say > "you can have four or eight, but not exactly six -- how many do you want > me to use in my answer." > Depends how long ago you asked the question. In Cisco IOS < 12.0 unless you did ip subnet-zero you did have exactly six of the same size (32 ips minus the usual overhead) with a /26. :) (thanks RFC950) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 11:44:00 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Ji0405944 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:44:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:43:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Job market?? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) From: "Derek J. Balling" To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <9C19BA7C-4E79-11D7-B5EC-000A27AF5202@megacity.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 02:23 PM, Doug Hughes wrote: > particularly if you have a military clearance, Is there any way to get such, short of "work for a job that requires one"? I've often heard mention of such requirements (seen quite a few in my browsing of ads of late), and always thought it'd be easier to get such a job if I already had said clearance rather than if they had to wait for confirmation, etc. etc. D From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 11:54:06 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Js5S06337 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:54:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: goodall.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:53:56 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: "Derek J. Balling" cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Job market?? In-Reply-To: <9C19BA7C-4E79-11D7-B5EC-000A27AF5202@megacity.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.6 required=5.1 tests=CARRIAGE_RETURNS,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,USER_AGENT_PINE,X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.43 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Derek J. Balling wrote: > > On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 02:23 PM, Doug Hughes wrote: > > particularly if you have a military clearance, > > Is there any way to get such, short of "work for a job that requires > one"? It depends... It depends on the type of classification (many levels) and whether it requires EBI or not. EBI (extensive background investigation) type clearances can take a very very long time and cost huge amounts of money. DOD clearances on the other hand take much less time. I had heard (though this is by no means true because I'm not interested in that sort of job right now) that there aren't a lot of places that are interested in paying for people who don't already have a clearance. That was last year though. Things have really picked up a lot since then (in my perception). > > I've often heard mention of such requirements (seen quite a few in my > browsing of ads of late), and always thought it'd be easier to get such > a job if I already had said clearance rather than if they had to wait > for confirmation, etc. etc. > I believe that is very true. The price _can_ be exorbitant. Doug From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 11:54:58 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Jsw906459 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:54:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:54:55 -0800 From: Dan Lennon To: "Mark D. Roth" Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <20030304195455.GC50838@tellme.com> References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <20030304123402.A17317@yorktown.isdn.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030304123402.A17317@yorktown.isdn.uiuc.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I think I understand the difference between these, but as (I consider myself) a junior sysadmin, I wouldn't mind seeing the rules of engagement for this thread being to include the answers to such brilliant/evil interview questions. And for the record, I make a point to ask evil questions in interviews. I cannot recomend hiring someone who does not know when to say "I don't know" or preferable "I don't know, but here is where I would start looking for the answer". -danL On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 12:34:02PM -0600, Mark D. Roth wrote: > > I'm not sure how "evil" this is, but I was once asked what the > difference is between a system call and a library call. It's a pretty > basic thing, but it's really amazing how many sysadmins don't know > what the basic parts of Unix are or how they fit together. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 12:11:15 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24KBFq07062 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:11:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 15:11:01 -0500 From: Jenn Sturm Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) In-reply-to: <20030304184431.GB9769@cs.mcgill.ca> To: sage-members@usenix.org Message-id: <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I thought *everyone's* answer for this had to be "knocked the power cable out of the production machine during peak hours before we had gotten the UPS hooked up." It's certainly mine! On Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 01:44 PM, Matthew SAMS wrote: > On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 12:38:13PM -0500, Cat Okita wrote: > >> ...so speaking of evil questions, what are some of folks favourite >> evil questions to ask (or that you've been asked?). > > "What's the dumbest thing you've ever done at work?" > > If it's not truly spectacular the person is either covering up > or has never had any real responsibility. > > I always add the 'at work' portion since while sleeping with your > brother's girlfriend may be stupid it's not really related to > your suitability for working with me. > > -Matthew > ___________ Jennifer Sturm System Administrator and Research Support Specialist Chemistry Department Hamilton College 198 College Hill Road Clinton, NY 13323 tel: 315-859-4745 fax: 315-859-4744 jsturm@hamilton.edu http://www.chem.hamilton.edu/ http://mars.chem.hamilton.edu/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 12:12:19 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24KCJX07174 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:12:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:12:11 -0800 From: "Mark C. Langston" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <20030304121211.C92854@bitshift.org> References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org>; from cat@reptiles.org on Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 12:38:13PM -0500 X-Uptime: 11:50AM up 2 days, 22:04, 9 users, load averages: 0.10, 0.19, 0.22 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 12:38:13PM -0500, Cat Okita wrote: > > ...so speaking of evil questions, what are some of folks favourite > evil questions to ask (or that you've been asked?). > Let's see: "Explain the various uses to which the sticky bit has been put." "Define a byte. Give three examples that violate your definition." "$FOO has just occurred. Explain your troubleshooting process to correct $FOO." Unfortnuately, I've come to the conclusion that the standard Bastardly screening questions (e.g., "name the daemons necessary for an NFS server to function, and their purposes (on Solaris)") are problematic, as I've always suspected: They test minutae that, while not on the order of, "list the two alphabetic switches NOT valid for ls", still address a level of detail that has largely escaped a senior admin. The last time I went through a screening process on the receiving end, I found that the answers I gave were invariably on the order of, "I don't remember the answer you're looking for. I used to know it, and I can explain in detail how it works, its interactions with other compoenents, its failure modes, common mistakes and errors, etc., but I don't have much call to remember that particular bit of trivia...it's something I can look up or otherwise observe with console access." While I think that's a perfectly valid answer (when backed with the requisite demonstration that the person does indeed posess this other knowledge), and I'd accept it readily if conducting the interview, it seems to befuddle a lot of people. The low-point of this was when I realized the screening process I'd been using was invalid for senior admins -- after bombing (from their point of view) a screening containing many of the same questions I used to think were witty and evil. Mentioning that I used to conduct interviews using many of the same questions did not help. :) -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark@bitshift.org mark@seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 12:17:53 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24KHrL07610 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:17:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:17:50 -0500 (EST) From: Adam and Christine Levin X-X-Sender: levins@westnet To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) In-Reply-To: <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: References: <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Jenn Sturm wrote: > I thought *everyone's* answer for this had to be "knocked the power > cable out of the production machine during peak hours before we had > gotten the UPS hooked up." It's certainly mine! That's my boss's! Not mine, honest! Mine's "deliberately unplugged the SCSI cable to a disk tray in the A3500 -- the *wrong* A3500". -Adam From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 12:19:05 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24KJ5w07714 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:19:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: goodall.eng.auburn.edu: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:18:38 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Hughes To: Jenn Sturm cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) In-Reply-To: <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.3 required=5.1 tests=CARRIAGE_RETURNS,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT_PINE,X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.43 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Jenn Sturm wrote: > I thought *everyone's* answer for this had to be "knocked the power > cable out of the production machine during peak hours before we had > gotten the UPS hooked up." It's certainly mine! > "Hey, this E220 has redundant power supplies. We can just unplug this one from here and plug it in over there to balance things out." .. "Hmm. what was the amperage rating on that other circuit?" From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 12:21:59 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24KLwp07945 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:21:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:21:56 -0500 From: Luke Hankins To: Jenn Sturm Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <20030304202156.GA4262@ethersmith.com> References: <20030304184431.GB9769@cs.mcgill.ca> <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk * Jenn Sturm wrote: > I thought *everyone's* answer for this had to be "knocked the power > cable out of the production machine during peak hours before we had > gotten the UPS hooked up." It's certainly mine! Nah, but I do have a strange predilection for fondling Big Red Buttons. Mine was init 5'ing a production machine that was 300 miles away instead of init 6'ing it. (I've never forgiven myself for allowing my fingers to learn 'init' rather than 'reboot' and 'halt'.) -Luke From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 12:25:22 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24KPMt08300 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:25:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <58C5D4E55163A048BB1D5A8C440F243C020165@msxyvr3.mda.ca> From: John LLOYD To: Doug Hughes , Jenn Sturm Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: RE: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:24:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Yesterday afternoon's lesson (for one of our sysadmins, not me), was Do not plug in the RAID set to 120V into the 240VAC circuit in front of the boss. Pop! Pop! (dual power supplies)! Or, as Mastercard said: "Sun E220, thirty thousand. 300 gigabyte RAID, eight thousand. The look on your bosses face when you plug it into the wrong power, priceless!" Lucky for this guy the Sun was autosensing. John > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Hughes [mailto:doug@eng.auburn.edu] > Sent: March 4, 2003 12:19 PM > To: Jenn Sturm > Cc: sage-members@usenix.org > Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) > > > On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Jenn Sturm wrote: > > > I thought *everyone's* answer for this had to be "knocked the power > > cable out of the production machine during peak hours before we had > > gotten the UPS hooked up." It's certainly mine! > > > > "Hey, this E220 has redundant power supplies. We can just unplug > this one from here and plug it in over there to balance things out." > .. > "Hmm. what was the amperage rating on that other circuit?" > > > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 12:37:34 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24KbXd08793 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:37:33 -0800 (PST) To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] the big mistakes (was Re: Evil Interview Questions) Reply-To: "Sean J. Schluntz" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Mar 2003 15:17:50 EST." Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 12:37:28 -0800 Message-ID: <2060.1046810248@workofstone.com> From: "Sean J. Schluntz" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >> I thought *everyone's* answer for this had to be "knocked the power >> cable out of the production machine during peak hours before we had >> gotten the UPS hooked up." It's certainly mine! > >That's my boss's! Not mine, honest! > >Mine's "deliberately unplugged the SCSI cable to a disk tray in the A3500 >-- the *wrong* A3500". On Solaris 2.6: cd /usr/bin chmod 0000 uu * Oh $h1t that should have been "chmod 0000 uu*" The system ran really well after that :) Ah the memories of days gone past. -Sean From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 12:39:50 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Kdo509037 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:39:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:39:38 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris To: Matthew SAMS Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Dumbest thing (was Re: Evil Interview Questions) In-Reply-To: <20030304184431.GB9769@cs.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <20030304184431.GB9769@cs.mcgill.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Matthew SAMS writes: > On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 12:38:13PM -0500, Cat Okita wrote: > > > ...so speaking of evil questions, what are some of folks favourite > > evil questions to ask (or that you've been asked?). > > "What's the dumbest thing you've ever done at work?" I once had software show a failure on drive 0 of a RAID (level 5) array that stored the mail inboxes for the entire campus. I opened the cabinet to find factory decals that numbered the bays "1" through "5". Uh-oh. I was tempted to just pull drive 1, but instead I was a Good Boy (tm) and called telephone support. After quite a bit of consternation and "please hold"s on the part of the support rep, I was told to pull drive 1, and did so, replacing it with a new drive. I then walked over to the console to start the rebuild, only to find it now showing faults on both drives 0 and drive 4. Whoops. It took fourteen hours outage restoring from tape to fix that one, and of course many hours of inbox status changes were lost. The dumb part was not noticing this discrepancy before putting the darned thing into production and testing it for ourselves (replacing those nutty decals, of course). Trey From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 12:53:16 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24KrFo09495 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:53:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:53:13 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris To: "Sean J. Schluntz" Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] the big mistakes (was Re: Evil Interview Questions) In-Reply-To: <2060.1046810248@workofstone.com> Message-ID: References: <2060.1046810248@workofstone.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Sean J. Schluntz writes: > On Solaris 2.6: > cd /usr/bin > chmod 0000 uu * > > Oh $h1t that should have been "chmod 0000 uu*" > > The system ran really well after that :) Ah the memories of days gone > past. How about this one. User needed to change usernames. (Sex change. No, this is not the setup for a joke.) For various reasons, policy was to disable the old user, create a new user (with a new UID), dump/restore the homedir, and chown the files. Yes, this should have been automated, but the admin in question didn't automate it. (No, it wasn't me.) After doing the restore, he ran cd /home/newusername chown -R newusername * # wait a long time ls -al Oops, that didn't get the dot files. So... chown -R newusername .* # Gee, this is taking even longer than before... He sat, patiently waiting for the command to complete, until the Red Phone (it really was) that was a direct analog line to the telephone support rang. I think something like three thousand users had all their files chown'd before it got interrupted. Trey -- I'm looking for work. If you need a SAGE Level IV with 10 years Perl, tool development, training, and architecture experience, please email me at trey@sage.org. I'm willing to relocate for the right opportunity. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 13:03:33 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24L3Xd09978 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:03:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) From: Stephen L Johnson To: Sage Mailing List In-Reply-To: References: <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1046811717.2135.17.camel@rodan.monsters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 Date: 04 Mar 2003 15:01:58 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 2003-03-04 at 14:17, Adam and Christine Levin wrote: > On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Jenn Sturm wrote: > > I thought *everyone's* answer for this had to be "knocked the power > > cable out of the production machine during peak hours before we had > > gotten the UPS hooked up." It's certainly mine! > > That's my boss's! Not mine, honest! > > Mine's "deliberately unplugged the SCSI cable to a disk tray in the A3500 > -- the *wrong* A3500". > > -Adam Well mine is "rm -rf /usr" when I really meant "rm -rf ./usr", after I had restored a few binaries from a tarball that I had extracted into a scratch area. And I have a couple of "stupid boss" examples via a friend: On their old Sun server, "We don't need this localhost entry in /etc/hosts..." and "The /etc/passswd file shouldn't have world read permission..." and then preceeding to fix said problem in both examples. -- Stephen L Johnson From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 13:12:36 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24LCat10359 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:12:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:12:32 -0800 From: Benjamin Feen To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <20030304211232.GH3701@pianosa.catch22.org> Reply-To: Benjamin Feen Mail-Followup-To: Benjamin Feen , sage-members@usenix.org References: <20030304184431.GB9769@cs.mcgill.ca> <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 03:11:01PM -0500, Jenn Sturm wrote: > I thought *everyone's* answer for this had to be "knocked the power > cable out of the production machine during peak hours before we had > gotten the UPS hooked up." It's certainly mine! That's just an accident. For something to be truly dumb, it's necessary to have *thought about it* and come up with *the wrong answer*. The more thought, and the wronger, the dumber. Forgive me for any inaccuracies in the technical logic of what follows; it was long ago and a very busy time in my life. Anyway, the value of the lesson is independent of the truth of the tale. We had a set of machines which NFS-mounted a whole lot of files from a NetApp. At some point, these files were moved to a different NetApp and remounted on a different mountpoint. The old mountpoint remained in place, though it was now unnecessary. I was on a Saving-the-World-by-Cleaning-Up-Cruft kick, so I did something like the following simplified example: # for i in `cat hostlist` # Another place to use cat do ssh $i umount /old-NFS-mountpoint done Unfortunately, on many machines, someone had cleverly replaced the old mountpoint with a symlink to the new location of the files. If my memory of the incident is accurate, umount happily followed the symlink to the new mountpoint, and unmounted THAT. The files were no longer mounted on these machines, which happened to be web servers. The files were pictures. Lots and lots of pictures of many, many books. And, er, I wasn't actually part of the team responsible for the hosts in question. I will forever be indebted to the SA who figured out what happened, and who called me to tell me what I'd done, and who didn't tell the rest of the team that it was me who'd done it. There are several good lessons in there, but the one that really stuck with me is this: Since then, I have never ever swung my root around in places where it wasn't my job to do so. -- Benjamin Feen benjamin(AT)feen.com http://www.monkeybagel.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 13:15:50 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24LFnW10634 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:15:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 16:15:31 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Lamourine X-Sender: mark@wol.lamourine.org To: Jenn Sturm cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) In-Reply-To: <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk When cloning a system disk: $ dd if=/dev/dsk/c0t1d0s0 of=/dev/dsk/c0t0d0s0 Where disk 0 was my system disk, and diski 1 was to be my clone - Mark From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 13:16:59 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24LGwD10852 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:16:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 13:16:56 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Sage Mailing List Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <65900000.1046812616@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <1046811717.2135.17.camel@rodan.monsters.org> References: <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> <1046811717.2135.17.camel@rodan.monsters.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk rm /dev/zero (or one of the examples of rm or "chmod 0" that happens to get this far). ld.so is not happy after that, so a lot of things aren't happy. ("Hey! When did /sbin/sh become dynamically linked?!") -- Oh, and nailing the first block of /dev/dsk/c0t0d0s2 with dd(1) when I meant /dev/dsk/c0t0d0s1, thus destroying the root filesystem. And in the name of increasing reliability (I was setting up DiskSuite). Oddly, the system kept running since a lot of it was in memory. Certain things looked at the disk and had trouble; other things believed what was in memory, and seemed fine. I managed to recover everything except /var, but ended up reloading from tape anyway. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 13:18:49 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24LInY11110 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:18:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:18:47 -0800 From: Benjamin Feen To: Sage Mailing List Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <20030304211847.GI3701@pianosa.catch22.org> Reply-To: Benjamin Feen Mail-Followup-To: Benjamin Feen , Sage Mailing List References: <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> <1046811717.2135.17.camel@rodan.monsters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1046811717.2135.17.camel@rodan.monsters.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Well mine is "rm -rf /usr" when I really meant "rm -rf ./usr", after I > had restored a few binaries from a tarball that I had extracted into a > scratch area. The single best habit I ever developed was to literally put my hands in my lap and stare at dangerous command lines for a few seconds before pulling the trigger. -- Benjamin Feen benjamin(AT)feen.com http://www.monkeybagel.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 13:26:07 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24LQ7c11534 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:26:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: Downforce.ERC.MsState.Edu: roger owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:26:01 -0600 From: "Roger L. Smith" To: Trey Harris cc: "Sean J. Schluntz" , Subject: Re: [SAGE] the big mistakes (was Re: Evil Interview Questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Trey Harris wrote: > cd /home/newusername > chown -R newusername * > # wait a long time > ls -al I can't believe that I'm going to admit to this in a public forum, but here goes: I had only been an admin a year or two. I was helping one of our researchers collect papers for a CRC handbook that he was editing. I needed to move the submissions from a temporary folder into his home directory. The paths were kind of long, and I was always up for saving a few keystrokes, so I did this: pushd . cd /home/joe/book mv `popd`/* . Apparently, I must have noticed that this was taking a long time and CTRL-C'ed it (I say apparently, because I only found this in my history later), and did it the right way. Did I mention that I did this on our main NFS server, which provided home directories, project spaces, and /usr/local to every other system in the building? Well, a few minutes later, a coworker said, "Hey, where did rsh go?...Oh (*#%^ /bin is missing on the NFS server!" So, in case you haven't already figured this one out, "popd" adds a space to the end of its output, so instead of the the move giving me: mv /var/tmp/book/* . I got mv /var/tmp/book /* . !!!!!! I had been moving / into the user's home directory! Fortunately, I apparently stopped it before it got to /dev, so we were able to just move everything back, and the server stayed up. Another fun story is a friend of mine who wanted to unconfigure his old desktop before he replaced it with a new one. He didn't use hostnames in his root prompt. The conversation with his boss went like this: Admin: Hey boss, what's the command to deconfigure a sun? Boss: sys-config Admin: Ok, thanks. (type, type, type) consoles windows open on both desktops:
going down now! Admin: Oh God, please no. He typed the command in the wrong window and deconfigured the computing center's main NFS/NIS server at 8:15am on a Monday morning. His boss went to the break room, got a Coke and sat there and drank it in order to calm down enough to go back and help fix it. _\|/_\|/_\|/_\|/_\|/_\|/_\|/_\|/_\|/_\|/_\|/_\|/_\|/_\|/_\|/_\|/_\|/_\|/_ | Roger L. Smith Phone: 662-325-3625 | | Systems Administrator FAX: 662-325-7692 | | roger@ERC.MsState.Edu http://WWW.ERC.MsState.Edu/~roger | | Mississippi State University | |____________________________________ERC__________________________________| From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 13:31:14 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24LVDj11865 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:31:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 16:31:11 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Lamourine X-Sender: mark@wol.lamourine.org To: Benjamin Feen cc: Sage Mailing List Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) In-Reply-To: <20030304211847.GI3701@pianosa.catch22.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Benjamin Feen wrote: > > Well mine is "rm -rf /usr" when I really meant "rm -rf ./usr", after I > > had restored a few binaries from a tarball that I had extracted into a > > scratch area. > > The single best habit I ever developed was to literally put my hands > in my lap and stare at dangerous command lines for a few seconds > before pulling the trigger. I don't always, but often enough, have someone, ANYONE look at it before I hit . I explain it and they look all confused "Why are you telling *me*?". Because if I can explain it to you, It's likely right. Usually a moment of contemplation's enough. - Mark From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 13:34:05 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24LY5d12135 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:34:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.2 Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 14:33:52 -0700 From: "Gary Studwell" To: Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>> Benjamin Feen 2:12:32 PM 3/4/03 >>> ... >That's just an accident. For something to be truly dumb, it's >necessary to have *thought about it* and come up with *the wrong >answer*. The more thought, and the wronger, the dumber. And in line with that is my boss story: Boss was having trouble unmounting a CD from an HP K server. Four knowledgeable sysadmins available. But standing in front of the box, noticed a key switch labelled Standby, On, and Service. Hunted up the key, turned it to Standby which promptly shut off the power. Defended action with, "If they meant Off, they should have labelled it that way. And I got the CD." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 13:37:49 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Lbn312456 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:37:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) From: Stephen L Johnson To: Benjamin Feen Cc: Sage Mailing List In-Reply-To: <20030304211847.GI3701@pianosa.catch22.org> References: <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> <1046811717.2135.17.camel@rodan.monsters.org> <20030304211847.GI3701@pianosa.catch22.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1046813781.2135.21.camel@rodan.monsters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 Date: 04 Mar 2003 15:36:21 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 2003-03-04 at 15:18, Benjamin Feen wrote: > > Well mine is "rm -rf /usr" when I really meant "rm -rf ./usr", after I > > had restored a few binaries from a tarball that I had extracted into a > > scratch area. > > The single best habit I ever developed was to literally put my hands > in my lap and stare at dangerous command lines for a few seconds > before pulling the trigger. Yep. Same here. I've gotten into the habit of checking, double checking and triple checking. -- Stephen L Johnson From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 13:37:58 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Lbwu12497 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:37:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E6520C2.6060803@drury.com> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 13:55:15 -0800 From: Mark Drury User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dumbest thing . . . References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <20030304184431.GB9769@cs.mcgill.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk For a while I had this inexplicable and awful habit of typing "rm" when I meant to type "mv" (perhaps every tenth time I issued the mv command, that is). Usually occured when I was moving a number of files to different locations, issuing "mv" several times in succession. Still don't understand what was going on there, conscioulsy or subconsciously, but it seems to have ebbed, thankfully. The most grief this ever cost me was in a previous life as an E10K admin at Sun/Netscape/iPlanet in Santa Clara, CA. I won't bother with the details but suffice to say I brought an entire E10K domain down, one that was used by a large dev/ QA/performance group, with a single erroneous command, and I believe I must have set an unofficial speed record re- building the domain immediately thereafter (from a recent backup). Became kind of a case of triumphing over adversity, too, as I informed the groups using the domain that there had been a disk failure, that I had replaced the faulty disk, and that I was rebuilding from backup (very bad, yes). Came out look- ing like a hero or sorts, but only because, as the sole E10K admin at the iPlanet campus, no one was ever the wiser. I still cringe when I think about how I handled this, but I'm sure at least a few of you can relate. :) I suppose we could start the "Dumbest thing you ever did that you were able to cover up" thread, but that wouldn't be particularly constructive, especially if it happened at your current place of employment. -- Mark D. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 13:45:23 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24LjN714272 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:45:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) From: "Brandon S. Allbery "KF8NH To: Benjamin Feen Cc: Sage Mailing List In-Reply-To: <20030304211847.GI3701@pianosa.catch22.org> References: <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> <1046811717.2135.17.camel@rodan.monsters.org> <20030304211847.GI3701@pianosa.catch22.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1046814316.36200.9.camel@rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 Date: 04 Mar 2003 16:45:16 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 2003-03-04 at 16:18, Benjamin Feen wrote: > > Well mine is "rm -rf /usr" when I really meant "rm -rf ./usr", after I > > had restored a few binaries from a tarball that I had extracted into a > > scratch area. > > The single best habit I ever developed was to literally put my hands > in my lap and stare at dangerous command lines for a few seconds > before pulling the trigger. Or "Put down the keyboard and back away slowly", as we put it around here. :) So far our biggest stuff-ups have been: - head of facilities inadvertently unplugging the RAID array from our (then primary) AFS fileserver - me, still new here and unfamiliar with AFS, adding a new cell to our root.afs: me: Hey, should root.afs really be empty? coworker: yeah, it's generated automatically (I should note that this was well before -dynroot...) me: hm, it didn't for this cell... (releases volume) (phone starts ringing as /afs suddenly becomes empty on ~400 machines) (problem ultimately was that at some point root.afs had become corrupt and the salvager turned it into an empty volume, but the readonly volumes were fine so nobody realized there was a problem for several years. My boss eventually found the record of the salvage in an old log file, I think.) -- brandon s allbery [openafs/solaris/japh/freebsd] allbery@kf8nh.apk.net system administrator [linux/heimdal/too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering KF8NH carnegie mellon university [better check the oblivious first -ke6sls] From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 13:49:47 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Lnl714606 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:49:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 16:43:40 -0500 (EST) From: Craig Raskin To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] the big mistakes (was Re: Evil Interview Questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0303041630580.22545-100000@unknownhost.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Roger L. Smith wrote: > I can't believe that I'm going to admit to this in a public forum, but > here goes: When I first started being an admin ages ago, we were doing some work on THE major Sun box. I plugged a keyboard into it and it of course signaled a break and dropped to the 'ok' prompt. I should have typed 'go' but for some reason it struck me as a good idea to do a 'sync' first. I figured that it would just flush things to disk and give me another 'ok' prompt. Well, it flushed everything to disk and promptly rebooted causing all sorts of clients to hang. I didn't do that again. Worse thing I ever witnessed... We were in our little sysadmin office and all of a sudden all of our machines froze. No good. We walked over to the computer room, opened the door, and saw the Macintosh guy with the floor lifted up and a puzzled look on his face. First thing out of his mouth was "I didn't know". Uh-oh. Turns out he plugged the new Apple Color Laserwriter into the UPS by accident, turned it on, and promptly overloaded the UPS which brought everything in the datacenter down. About 20 machines ranging from small Sun boxes to large critical VMS boxes. Luckily everything came back online with not too many problems. The boss wasn't there that day and we covered for the guy. I don't think the boss ever really found out what happened. The Mac guy was always nervous about plugging in things after that one. :) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 13:51:43 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Lpg214882 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:51:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:51:40 -0800 From: Benjamin Feen To: Sage Mailing List Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <20030304215140.GK3701@pianosa.catch22.org> Reply-To: Benjamin Feen Mail-Followup-To: Benjamin Feen , Sage Mailing List References: <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> <1046811717.2135.17.camel@rodan.monsters.org> <20030304211847.GI3701@pianosa.catch22.org> <1046814316.36200.9.camel@rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1046814316.36200.9.camel@rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The fact that the "dumbest thing" thread is going on during US business hours reminds me of the King Missile song, "Take Stuff from Work". Take stuff from work. It's the best way to feel better about your job. Never buy pens or pencils or paper. Take 'em from work. Rubber bands, paper clips, memo pads, folders-take 'em from work. It's the best way to feel better about your low pay and appalling working conditions. Take an ashtray-they got plenty. Take coat hangers. Take a -- take a trash can. Why buy a file cabinet? Why buy a phone? Why buy a personal computer or word processor? Take 'em from work. I took a whole desk from the last place I worked. They never noticed and it looks great in my apartment. Take an electric pencil sharpener. Take a case of white-out; you might need it one day. Take some from work It's your duty as an oppressed worker to steal from your exploiters. It's gonna be an outstanding day. Take stuff from work. And goof off on the company time. I wrote this at work. They're paying me to write about stuff I steal from them. Life is good. -- Benjamin Feen benjamin(AT)feen.com http://www.monkeybagel.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 13:52:58 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24LqvG15097 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:52:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:52:48 -0800 From: Jeremy Mates To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <20030304215248.GE7017@darkness.sial.org> Mail-Followup-To: Jeremy Mates , sage-members@usenix.org References: <20030304184431.GB9769@cs.mcgill.ca> <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> <20030304211232.GH3701@pianosa.catch22.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030304211232.GH3701@pianosa.catch22.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3 required=5 tests=IN_REP_TO, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES, SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MUTT X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk * Benjamin Feen > I was on a Saving-the-World-by-Cleaning-Up-Cruft kick, so I did > something like the following simplified example: > > # for i in `cat hostlist` # Another place to use cat while read i; do echo $i; done To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing? In-Reply-To: Message from Steve Simmons of "Tue, 04 Mar 2003 10:06:13 EST." <20030304150613.GA55746@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 17:15:14 -0500 From: Ted Nolan SRI Augusta GA X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In message <20030304150613.GA55746@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>you write: >Randal L. Schwartz writes: > >> I'm still amazed people do this. Where does this idiom come from, of >> cat with a single argument? Is it a windows thing backported to Unix? > >No, it's a legacy unix training thing. Most trainers (including me) >start by illustrating very simple pipelines with stuff like > > cat foo | grep bar > >Unfortunately this immediately fixes the 'cat foo |' idiom in a lot of >people brains. Nobody has mentioned the reason I had assumed was pretty universal, or maybe I just spent too much time using the bourne shell with no filec: You can't always use wildcards in redirection (Solaris /bin/sh still can't). So: $ ls baz fooby_is_my_name_really quux $ tr -s '[:upper:]' '[:lower:]' < foo* | sort foo*: cannot open <*curse silently*> $ cat foo* | tr -s '[:upper:]' '[:lower:]' | sort helo world $ Ted From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 14:19:09 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24MJ8X16094 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:19:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 17:19:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) From: Dan Lowe To: Sage Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <1046811717.2135.17.camel@rodan.monsters.org> Message-Id: <4E9DD5FD-4E8F-11D7-9866-00039383EA48@tangledhelix.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 04:01 PM, Stephen L Johnson wrote: > And I have a couple of "stupid boss" examples via a friend: On their > old Sun server, "We don't need this localhost entry in /etc/hosts..." > and "The /etc/passswd file shouldn't have world read permission..." and > then preceeding to fix said problem in both examples. \ In that vein, here's my contribution (Solaris... 2.4 I believe): mv /sbin /opt/sbin ln -s /opt/sbin /sbin (Yes, /opt was on a slice other than /.) If you haven't figured this out yet, think "/sbin/init". -dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 14:22:09 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24MM8q16364 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:22:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E652711.9080508@computer.org> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 17:22:09 -0500 From: Michael Gorski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] the big mistakes (was Re: Evil Interview Questions) References: <2060.1046810248@workofstone.com> In-Reply-To: <2060.1046810248@workofstone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: e60dab0b445cd1a99649176a89d694c0f43c108795ac4507db4a2b997ef0fb0e241e24ed289734b5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Sean J. Schluntz wrote: >>>I thought *everyone's* answer for this had to be "knocked the power >>>cable out of the production machine during peak hours before we had >>>gotten the UPS hooked up." It's certainly mine! >> >>That's my boss's! Not mine, honest! >> >>Mine's "deliberately unplugged the SCSI cable to a disk tray in the A3500 >>-- the *wrong* A3500". > > > On Solaris 2.6: > cd /usr/bin > chmod 0000 uu * > > Oh $h1t that should have been "chmod 0000 uu*" > > The system ran really well after that :) Ah the memories of days gone > past. > > -Sean > I've got two good ones. First, while trying to allocate more memory to an old version of MS SQL Server, I cranked up the memory allocation to 64,000 on a machine with 128MB and shut the machine down. But I didn't realize that the setting was measured in 8kB pages. The SQL server wouldn't come back up with its memory setting set to 500MB. And even worse, I didn't have the manual to figure out how to get around the problem and I was on site after hours where if I left, I wouldn't be able to get back in. So I had to arrive very early the next morning and follow the first employee in to fix the problem. Second, don't try this one at home on your Sun E450 running Solaris 2.6. We thought, "We need to replace the C runtime lib." Of course nothing functions after we moved the original away. % su - # mv /usr/lib/libc.so.1 /usr/lib/libc.so.old -Mike From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 14:22:12 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24MMBg16393 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:22:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:22:06 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: sage Members Subject: Re: In defense of HTML mail (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <20030304142206.A80782@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: sage Members References: <200303041509.KAA27918@kalanit.umd.edu> <3E64C766.8060202@snert.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from darrell@grumblesmurf.net on Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 08:44:40AM -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 08:44:40AM -0800, Darrell Fuhriman wrote: > > I think the space argument is silly, especially in these days > where hundred Gb drives are going for right around $1/GB[1]. [expletive deleted] None of your [#$@] business to tell me where to spend my money. Besides which, I have my domain virtual-hosted. There is a fairly tight cap on disk space. > Text-only e-mail is a very American(and lesser extent > European)-centric format. The requirement that we forever mess > around with different character sets, some with multiple > encodings, when there is now one encoding that will handle this > for us, seems absurd to me. Different character sets have NOTHING to do with html. That's MIME. MIME headers let you specify the character set for email. Once that is done, the message will still be "in text". Yes, you can also use HTML to specify character set in an HTML attachment. It is unneccessary, since MIME handles it, and you have to use MIME to properly send HTML anyway. So if you have the capability to send alternate-charset email with HTML, you neccessarily also have the capability to send it WITHOUT HTML. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 14:31:05 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24MV5F17018 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:31:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E652929.3000708@computer.org> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 17:31:05 -0500 From: Michael Gorski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> In-Reply-To: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: e60dab0b445cd1a99649176a89d694c0f43c108795ac4507435bcb2aaf422006234b05bf017b292b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Cat Okita wrote: > On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Trey Harris wrote: > >>What a lovely--though possibly evil--technical interview question for a >>junior-bucking-for-senior candidate! :-) > > > ...so speaking of evil questions, what are some of folks favourite > evil questions to ask (or that you've been asked?). > I ask the question that the list is discussing now. "Tell me a story about your worst technical disaster. Explain what went wrong (technically) and how you handled it." Even your fresh from school folks will have a fun story to tell. And if a person says, "I can't think of any disasters I've been involved in," I worry they won't be a successful SysAdmin. -Mike From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 14:34:15 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24MYFp17297 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:34:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15973.10725.329465.437068@azazel.infersys.com> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:34:13 -0800 To: Sage Mailing List Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) In-Reply-To: <65900000.1046812616@jxh.mirapoint.com> References: <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> <1046811717.2135.17.camel@rodan.monsters.org> <65900000.1046812616@jxh.mirapoint.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 12) "Portable Code" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smith X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk JXH> rm /dev/zero (or one of the examples of rm or "chmod 0" that happens JXH> to get this far). Huh; and here I was about to mention "What happens if you remove /dev/zero?" as an evil interview question... Was that you who came up with that one, or M. Hood? -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 14:37:47 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Mbk517571 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:37:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15973.10936.825058.527748@azazel.infersys.com> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:37:44 -0800 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) In-Reply-To: <20030304211232.GH3701@pianosa.catch22.org> References: <20030304184431.GB9769@cs.mcgill.ca> <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> <20030304211232.GH3701@pianosa.catch22.org> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 12) "Portable Code" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smith X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk BF> # for i in `cat hostlist` # Another place to use cat for i in `< hostlist` also seems to work in bash, although not in Solaris's vanilla /bin/sh. -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 14:38:05 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Mc4r17637 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:38:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: yar.midnightlinux.com: jo2y owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 17:37:46 -0500 (EST) From: "James O'Kane" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dumbest thing . . . In-Reply-To: <3E6520C2.6060803@drury.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk These weren't at work, but they were dumb. It was 1995, I was just learning unix and linux and this was my personal machine. I had been told that you should seperate user data from system data. So I have /home and / Then I realized that /etc had several unique files for the machine, so I copied them to /home/etc and made the right symlink. I soon found out you can't mount /home if you can't find /etc/fstab. I was impressed with myself that I corrected this without too much trouble. I also thought it would be a good idea to backup my machine with tar. But I decided I should backup the partition instead of going through the filesystem: tar cvzf /dev/hda1 foo.tar.gz Oops. I memorized the correct argument order after that. Then there are stupid things done just for fun: find / -type f -exec gzip -9 {} \; It stops after gzip itself is compressed. -james From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 14:48:25 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24MmPM21968 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:48:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:48:23 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <20030304144823.A82251@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from doug@eng.auburn.edu on Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 12:06:48PM -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 12:06:48PM -0600, Doug Hughes wrote: > On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Cat Okita wrote: > > A recently nicely evil question that I ran into - program 'hello world' > > in three languages[0]. > > > does sh, ksh and csh count? ;) > only if you can do it in three different ways in those languages :-) #!/bin/csh echo "hello world" #!/bin/ksh print "hello world" #!/bin/sh cat < Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 23:52:47 +0100 From: Anthony Howe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030131 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> In-Reply-To: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Cat Okita wrote: > On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Trey Harris wrote: > >>What a lovely--though possibly evil--technical interview question for a >>junior-bucking-for-senior candidate! :-) > > > ...so speaking of evil questions, what are some of folks favourite > evil questions to ask (or that you've been asked?). > > A recently nicely evil question that I ran into - program 'hello world' > in three languages[0]. --- Any unix-like shell echo "hello world" exit 0 --- JavaScript --- Java class Hello { public static void main(Strings[] args) { System.out.println("hello world"); System.exit(0); } } ---- Ruby or Perl print "hello world\n" exit(0) ---- C cosole #include int main(int argc, char **argv) { printf("hello world\n"); return 0; } ---- C Win32 #include int PASCAL WINAPI WinMain(HINSTANCE me, HINSTANCE other, LPSTR cmdline, int show) { MessageBox(NULL, "Hello world!", "", MB_OK); return 0; } ---- Sendmail Rule LOCAL_RULESETS SLocal_check_rcpt R$* $#error $@ 4.7.1 $: "Hello World" I'm sure I could find some more in 8080 assembler for CP/M and Forth, but I would have to dig out old books. Anthony Howe From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 15:04:00 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24N40d25099 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:04:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:03:56 -0800 From: Gus To: Sage Mailing List Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <20030304150356.A14185@durden.besh.com> References: <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> <1046811717.2135.17.camel@rodan.monsters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <1046811717.2135.17.camel@rodan.monsters.org>; from sjohnson@monsters.org on Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 03:01:58PM -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 03:01:58PM -0600, Stephen L Johnson wrote: > Well mine is "rm -rf /usr" when I really meant "rm -rf ./usr", after I > had restored a few binaries from a tarball that I had extracted into a > scratch area. Same problem, different directory: /bin (and not on Solaris where that's almost harmless...) -- Gus "There are no second acts in American lives." -- F. Scott Fitzgerald From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 15:17:10 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24NHAk25540 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:17:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E6533EF.6050609@Genome.WI.MIT.EDU> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 18:17:03 -0500 From: "K. M. Peterson" Organization: Whitehead Institute/MIT Center for Genome Research User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Lennon CC: "Mark D. Roth" , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: Evil Interview Questions References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <20030304123402.A17317@yorktown.isdn.uiuc.edu> <20030304195455.GC50838@tellme.com> In-Reply-To: <20030304195455.GC50838@tellme.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I think this whole discussion sounds logically equivalent to the SAGE Certification Debates of last year. Remember? How do you find a good sysadmin? How do you tell how much someone knows? How do you "prove" how much you know? How do you quantify experience appropriately? http://www.sagecert.org/html/use.php?view=home _KMP P. S. The dumbest things I ever did were "social errors" not technical errors... Dan Lennon wrote: >I think I understand the difference between these, but as (I consider >myself) a junior sysadmin, I wouldn't mind seeing the rules of >engagement for this thread being to include the answers to such >brilliant/evil interview questions. > >And for the record, I make a point to ask evil questions in interviews. >I cannot recomend hiring someone who does not know when to say "I don't >know" or preferable "I don't know, but here is where I would start >looking for the answer". > >-danL > >On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 12:34:02PM -0600, Mark D. Roth wrote: > > >>I'm not sure how "evil" this is, but I was once asked what the >>difference is between a system call and a library call. It's a pretty >>basic thing, but it's really amazing how many sysadmins don't know >>what the basic parts of Unix are or how they fit together. >> >> > > > -- K. M. Peterson voice: +1 617 258 0927 Manager, Computer Operations Group Whitehead Institute/MIT Center for Genome Research 320 Charles Street - Cambridge, MA 02141-2023 fax: +1 617 258 0903 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 15:28:31 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24NSVH25985 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:28:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 15:28:26 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: Josh Smith cc: Sage Mailing List Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <84450000.1046820506@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <15973.10725.329465.437068@azazel.infersys.com> References: <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> <1046811717.2135.17.camel@rodan.monsters.org> <65900000.1046812616@jxh.mirapoint.com> <15973.10725.329465.437068@azazel.infersys.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > JXH> rm /dev/zero (or one of the examples of rm or "chmod 0" that happens > JXH> to get this far). > > Huh; and here I was about to mention "What happens if you remove > /dev/zero?" as an evil interview question... Was that you who came up with > that one, or M. Hood? I think it was Mr. Woolsey. He has a someone-destroyed-part-of-/usr-and-I-managed-to-restore-it-without-rebootin g story that goes back to 4.1C on a VAX-11/780. Somehow, the user had triggered -- as root, naturally -- a process that was renaming files to their ALL CAPS equivalent filenames, which of course aren't equivalent enough. It stopped at a particular point, which was a clue to the underlying problem. And now I can't remember the crucial detail; sorry. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 15:30:14 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24NUDV26236 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:30:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 15:30:12 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dumbest thing . . . Message-ID: <85110000.1046820612@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > It stops after gzip itself is compressed. Yeah, just like that. It'll come to me. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 15:36:39 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24NadC26628 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:36:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) From: "Brandon S. Allbery "KF8NH To: Jim Hickstein Cc: Josh Smith , Sage Mailing List In-Reply-To: <84450000.1046820506@jxh.mirapoint.com> References: <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> <1046811717.2135.17.camel@rodan.monsters.org> <65900000.1046812616@jxh.mirapoint.com> <15973.10725.329465.437068@azazel.infersys.com> <84450000.1046820506@jxh.mirapoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1046820991.36200.11.camel@rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 Date: 04 Mar 2003 18:36:32 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 2003-03-04 at 18:28, Jim Hickstein wrote: > enough. It stopped at a particular point, which was a clue to the > underlying problem. And now I can't remember the crucial detail; sorry. WAG: "mv: command not found" -- brandon s allbery [openafs/solaris/japh/freebsd] allbery@kf8nh.apk.net system administrator [linux/heimdal/too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering KF8NH carnegie mellon university [better check the oblivious first -ke6sls] From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 15:37:37 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Nbbx26837 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:37:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F49861047131B9@mail-cpk.answerfinancial.com> From: Todd Williams To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: RE: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:37:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I think credit for this one goes to Paul Moriarty, still lurking on this list... What does this command do? Just talk your way through it, and tell me what it's doing. ps aux |grep foo |grep -v grep |awk '{ print $1 }' |xargs kill -1 Yes, it's dated due to the BSD-style ps, and it contains errors -- it's supposed to. It's interesting to meet people who know and use xargs. Then there's this one, from Barb Dyker (or maybe Evi?) I think. It's part of a 100-question test or something: How familiar are you with the UNIX bobs drivers? Years after this red herring was written, I actually worked with BOBS as a component of an EAI system, but this question was really intended to catch the know-it-alls who claim to have experience with everything -- even things that don't exist. It reportedly worked quite well. Hopefully, I saw this link to Evil Microsoft Interview Questions somewhere other than on this list: http://www.sellsbrothers.com/fun/msiview/default.aspx?content=question.htm -Todd From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 15:44:11 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24NiAD27239 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:44:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 15:44:05 -0800 From: Jim Hickstein To: "Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH" cc: Josh Smith , Sage Mailing List Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) Message-ID: <88410000.1046821445@jxh.mirapoint.com> In-Reply-To: <1046820991.36200.11.camel@rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net> References: <6BA4679C-4E7D-11D7-A9FD-0003938AC910@hamilton.edu> <1046811717.2135.17.camel@rodan.monsters.org> <65900000.1046812616@jxh.mirapoint.com> <15973.10725.329465.437068@azazel.infersys.com> <84450000.1046820506@jxh.mirapoint.com> <1046820991.36200.11.camel@rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >> enough. It stopped at a particular point, which was a clue to the >> underlying problem. And now I can't remember the crucial detail; sorry. > > WAG: "mv: command not found" Probably. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 4 15:55:54 2003 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id h24Ntsk27691 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:55:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E653CE4.3060902@ipom.com> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 15:55:16 -0800 From: Phil Dibowitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020623 Debian/1.0.0-0.woody.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Evil Interview Questions (was Re: [SAGE] Coolest thing?) References: <20030304123527.I39180-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <20030304180537.GB96581@rfc822.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Pete Ehlke wrote: > "There's a whiteboard. Here's a marker. Draw the internet." > > The range of responses, and approaches to them, are *astounding*. > > -P. > There's more than one right answer, although I'd suspect the simplest is to simply draw a cloud. -- Phil Dibowitz phil@ipom.com Freeware and Technical Pages Insanity Palace of Metallica http://home.earthlink.net/~jaymzh666/ http://www.ipom.com/ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Mar 5 10:27:42 2003 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h25IRgaO003845 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 10:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h25IRfKS003844 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 10:27:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 13:27:39 -0500 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] HTML mail - is it evil incarnate? Message-ID: <20030305182739.GB1320@snew.com> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Yerkes , sage-members@usenix.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I *was* jesting about switching to mutt/vi and html mail. However, I use w3m to render HTML mail I get. It doesn't go GET things (that's web which I don't want), but it will render colors, frames and the like. Even on my VT420 in the garage. It's text only, does frames, lives in /usr/ports/. I've been using Internetwork mail for a good 20 some years now. Started with people who'd been using email since the early 70s. I can send mail across the world in seconds. It was a moment when I sent a file to a friend from NYC to Seattle while on the phone with him and he got it was we chatted. Standards based mail was clearly superior. No gateway crap, inter-company mail was easy. The world figured this out in the 90s. However, I get a little uncomfortable when folks would put up a message from (say) notes, with lovely text handling - italics, colors, etc - and perhaps even in-line tables and compare it with my elm (or Eudora when I was showing the mortal's standards based mail).. Us unix curmudgeons seem to be stuck in this model from 1976 for mail. You have a Glass TTY. What's your problem? Is it time we move on? Or stand around and become irrelevant. Fixed width fonts showing ascii information is NOT enough for people, real people to communicate well. My NeXT Mail did lovely things, mostly using RTF. HTML came along (on my NeXT first :) and offered a light weight STANDARD way to markup text. I *don't* want to chase external references - but that's simply having a non-bad client. Eudora and w3m and mulberry can have that turned off. Not having that option is a failure in the client. But your XTerm can do color. It can bold (vt100 can do bold). And in my user-advocate role, I have to embrace HTML as a Good Thing because it's an open standards based way to give users what they legitimately need and want. So we can stand around and pretend HTML mail will go away if we ignore it. And it may. I get a lot of word docs. Thats worse. I know a lot of you are "forced" to use Outbreak and Exchange and Windows. Perhaps there's a cause and effect from denying features and moving forward. Email is now mission critical. Pretending that everyone is happy with Glass TTYs and that feature list is, I offer, burying out head in the sand. Is html-mail evil? Can you get over it? From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Mar 5 10:33:29 2003 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h25IXSaO003971 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 10:33:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h25IXSh7003970 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 10:33:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 10:33:27 -0800 From: Jim Lawson To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] sage-members interruption Message-ID: <20030305103327.I6285@voyager.usenix.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We upgraded to sendmail 8.12.8 yesterday and failed to conjure up a suitably inoccuous set of configuration defaults for the new split personality sendmail. The result was outbound majordomo mail was trapped by our ancient anti-spam virtusertable filters. We've disabled the latter (which means we're vulnerable to spam on the outgoing aliases). Any suggestions are appreciated. I hear 1998 is just around the corner. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Mar 5 10:35:06 2003 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h25IZ5aO004053 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 10:35:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by voyager.usenix.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h25IZ5RI004050 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 10:35:05 -0800 (PST) To: jxh@jxh.com Cc: owner-sage-members@usenix.org, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Dumbest thing . . . X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.5 September 22, 2000 Message-ID: From: susan.diller@kodak.com Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 13:33:14 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on KNOTES2/ISBP/EKC(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 03/05/2003 01:33:17 PM, Serialize complete at 03/05/2003 01:33:17 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I once did a kill -1 on init instead of inet. The SA next to me looked over and said 'Oh, I've done that a few times.' Then, he proceeded to run a script which killed all of the extra processes. - Sue Susan Diller R&D IT/M Server Services Eastman Kodak Company From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Mar 5 11:22:18 2003 Received: from voyager.usenix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usenix.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h25JMIaO005264 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for