From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 1 02:33:57 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g01AQEv13693 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jan 2002 02:26:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from warlock.qualcomm.com (warlock.qualcomm.com [129.46.64.204]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g01APxo13687 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO); Tue, 1 Jan 2002 02:26:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from avalon.qualcomm.com (avalon.qualcomm.com [203.30.171.11]) by warlock.qualcomm.com (8.12.1/8.9.3/8.9) with ESMTP id g01APSKQ001825; Tue, 1 Jan 2002 02:25:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAVAJO.qualcomm.com by avalon.qualcomm.com (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id VAA12533; Tue, 1 Jan 2002 21:24:58 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20020101211048.023becd0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: ggr2@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 21:21:08 +1100 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Greg Rose Subject: [SAGE] Alternative Nominations for USENIX Board of Directors Election Cc: ggr@qualcomm.com, Etaoin Shrdlu , Margo Seltzer , bod@usenix.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=2 From=2 Subject=2 Message-ID=2 Received=2 Body=2 Fuz1=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Dear SAGE and USENIX members: As I announced on the sage-members@usenix.org mailing list, I have formed an "alternative nominating committee" with a view towards coordinating nominations, principally for the officers positions. What I was afraid of, in the heated environment after the USENIX Board's action in dismissing two members of the SAGE Executive, was that many people would self-nominate for the election (a) without understanding their obligations and duties (b) without considering the overall slate of candidates, electability, and so on. I'm pleased to say that we succeeded in discouraging a number of potential candidates -- but don't take that the wrong way, all were well-meaning, and we very much appreciate their involvement and interest. Some, in retrospect, felt that they really wanted to be more involved with the SAGE executive anyway, so I think we've helped towards filling those vacancies. As I said at the outset, one thing we were not going to do was fail to nominate anyone who remained wanting such a nomination. So our task, really, was just to ensure that no vital talent was wasted because of the structure of the election itself (remembering that a person can only be nominated for one position). So, for the officer's positions we are nominating: Kirk McKusick for President Trey Harris for Vice President Lois Bennett for Treasurer Steve Simmons for Secretary You'll notice that two of the people above were already nominated by the (Real) Nominating Committee. Lois specifically asked us to nominate her, before the outcome of the Nominating Committee's deliberations were known, and reaffirmed that afterward. Since we are bound by my statement that we wouldn't fail to nominate anyone who wanted to proceed, and since we found Lois to be a perfectly good candidate for that position, we have no problem nominating her. There were other acceptable candidates for that position, but avoiding what we consider to be useless competition was the whole point. We did not, however, find any candidate we wanted to run against Kirk for the position of President. But we didn't want people to think that we didn't like Kirk for the job either. So I asked Kirk if he would object to us nominating him, to avoid this perception, and he agreed. The other candidates we are nominating for 4 positions as Directors-at-large are: AEleen Frisch , James Yaple , Jon (maddog) Hall , Melissa Binde , Peg Schafer , AEleen is another special case -- she's already lodged her own nomination, but asked that we include her on our forms too. It can't hurt. At this time we are not endorsing any particular subset of the above five candidates; this has not yet been the subject of discussion between us. We can state, though, that we have no reason to doubt the candidacy of the people we are nominating. Not surprisingly, all of them are sympathetic with the goals of SAGE. By the USENIX by-laws, the election has to commence by April 1, and nominations close 10 weeks before the election date, which makes January 21 the close of nominations by my counting. (The Nominating Committee, by the same by-laws, had to have their report to the membership 16 weeks before; since they were a day late, I assume it's safe to rely on the April 1 date.) There's still time! sincerely, Greg Rose (for the "alternative nominating committee") Greg Rose INTERNET: ggr@qualcomm.com Qualcomm Australia VOICE: +61-2-9817 4188 FAX: +61-2-9817 5199 Level 3, 230 Victoria Road, http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ Gladesville NSW 2111 232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 2 20:21:46 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0343Qi25683 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 20:03:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from zoidberg.zoidbergconspiracy.org (zoidberg.colo.jalan.com [216.177.72.208]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0343Oo25679 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 20:03:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.zoidbergconspiracy.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A31833F24 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 19:57:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 19:57:16 -0800 (PST) From: Thornton Prime X-X-Sender: To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Moving a machine room... In-Reply-To: <200111300116.RAA28974@plxw0032.pdx.intel.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone have any movers specializing in server and network equipment they'd be willing to recommend in the Southern California region? We are moving datacenters across town. thornton From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 3 10:32:45 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g03IO4J29764 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jan 2002 10:24:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.darkness.net (IDENT:root@cabal.darkness.net [204.56.57.2]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g03IO0o29760 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2002 10:24:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from celo.darkness.net (neverwhere [204.56.57.93]) by cabal.darkness.net (6.6.6/6.6.6) with ESMTP id g03INhq08761 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:23:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from celo.darkness.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by celo.darkness.net (6.6.6/6.6.6) with ESMTP id g03IGB2c017255 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:16:11 -0700 Received: (from heffner@localhost) by celo.darkness.net (6.6.6/8.12.1/Submit) id g03IGBRH017254 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:16:11 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:16:11 -0700 From: Jeremy To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] job hunting list Message-ID: <20020103111611.B17198@celo.darkness.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Haven't seen anyone else forward this over to SAGE yet, so I'm sending it as per requested. I guess a lot of us SAGE'ers are interested in the job listings :) -jeremy ----- Forwarded message from Work For Food ----- From: "Work For Food" Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 23:26:58 -0800 Subject: The Job Search List: It's a website now! Ladies and Gentlemen, The Job Search List has moved! It is now posted at www.WorkForFood.net ! Demand for this list was very overwhelming so please do not send anymore subscription emails, you can visit this list on the net at www.WorkForFood.net . SAGE-Members please post this email to your forums. And if you missed the website it's www.WorkForFood.net . Thank you for your time. ---== LightYear ----- End forwarded message ----- -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- heffner at darkness.net Darkness Network Engineering PGP public key available on request My thoughts and opinions represent no one but myself --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 3 21:52:28 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g045lQp06200 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jan 2002 21:47:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from spliff.LuftHans.com (cpe-24-221-1-115.az.sprintbbd.net [24.221.1.115]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g045lOo06196 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2002 21:47:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by spliff.LuftHans.com with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1 (Debian)) id 16MNJU-0002Yp-00; Thu, 03 Jan 2002 22:54:44 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 22:54:44 -0700 (MST) From: "der.hans" X-Sender: lufthans@spliff.LuftHans.com To: sage-members@usenix.org cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] LDAP In-Reply-To: <87zo448x66.fsf@quux.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-15 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=4 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by usenix.org id g045lQo06197 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Am 27. Dec, 2001 schwätzte Jens Link so: > If I find some time this weekend I'll also try to add a Netware 5 > Server to my home network and try communication between Novells NDS > and OpenLDAP. That works just fine :). We just converted to NDS for account management a few months ago. It's holding info for *NIX ( mostly debian, sun coming up, though ) and is feeding out [pb]dc. What we haven't gotten yet is a way to create m$ accounts from LDAP ( or any other automated method from *NIX ). Novell has a tool for this, but they won't make it available to us :(. There are also some library hooks and we're working on building a tool, but if someone has one we can use I won't complain :). Other than account creation/deletion NDS is working quite well for us. It's Odoing much better for us than penLDAP was. It's also added issues for backups, but the Novell guys seem to have that under control. ciao, der.hans -- # http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/ http://www.DevelopOnline.com/ # Help Jerry Lewis stamp out M$...oops that's MDA - der.hans From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 4 05:15:16 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g04DE9707959 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 05:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com (mail-blue.research.att.com [135.207.30.102]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g04DE8o07955 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 05:14:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.research.att.com (postal.research.att.com [135.207.23.30]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 466364CE12 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 08:13:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com (castle7117.research.att.com [135.207.231.117]) by postal.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA22931 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 08:10:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C35AA90.2050604@research.att.com> Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 08:13:52 -0500 From: Andrew Hume User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: sage-members-digest V2 #747 References: <200201041000.g04A01w07200@usenix.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=7 env_From=10 From=10 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk speaking of LDAP, can someone point me at a tool to convert simple "joe blow|pres@whitehouse.gov" style address books into the LDAPish format that most mailers want these days? From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 4 08:07:31 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g04G6k008728 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 08:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from lone.duckland.org (host164.duckland.org [64.245.56.164] (may be forged)) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g04G6jo08724 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 08:06:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.130] (ip125.110.136.216.in-addr.arpa [216.136.110.125] (may be forged)) by lone.duckland.org (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id g04G6W215323 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:06:33 -0600 Subject: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assesment for enterprise messaging? From: "Don 'Duck' Harper" To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0.0.99+cvs.2001.12.14.08.57 (Preview Release) Date: 04 Jan 2002 10:04:52 -0600 Message-Id: <1010160297.31451.6.camel@b-52.duckland.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I have been tasked with coming up with a new messaging stragegy for my company ( enough buzz words for you? :) We currently have Exchange/Outlook, and we are not too happy with the client side security issues. I know that we need basic things like email and calendaring, and maybe email/web based workflow, but I am looking for a check list that I can present to my user base to find out what they really need/want/use so I can then got develope an RFP type thing to go look at what is out there. I am not looking for solutions yet, just a good set of questions to be asking my users. Any pointers? Anyone done this recently and can share your questions? Thanks! Don -- Don Harper, RHCE, MCSE DoD #0520 email: duck@duckland.org Just a systems kinda guy... http://www.duckland.org YOU KNOW YOU WORK IN THE '90s WHEN . . . You think Einstein would have been more effective had he put his ideas into a matrix. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 4 11:40:31 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g04JbTI10796 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:37:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from neuromancer.mbarr.net (66-108-143-133.nyc.rr.com [66.108.143.133]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g04JbSo10792 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:37:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [192.168.0.10]) by neuromancer.mbarr.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 268CE24A108; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:37:05 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1309 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 14:37:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assesment for enterprise messaging? From: Matthew Barr To: sage-members@usenix.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1010160297.31451.6.camel@b-52.duckland.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At the LISA conference, I heard mention of a way that allowed a Unix system to emulate the major features of an Exchange server, such as calendaring, as well as the obvious email component. Does anyone have any more detailed information about this? On 1/4/02 11:04 AM, "Don 'Duck' Harper" wrote: > We currently have Exchange/Outlook, and we are not too happy with the > client side security issues. > > I know that we need basic things like email and calendaring, and maybe > email/web based workflow, but I am looking for a check list that I can > present to my user base to find out what they really need/want/use so I > can then got develope an RFP type thing to go look at what is out there. > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 4 14:05:23 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g04M1Yr12624 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:01:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from inswsod02.gs.com (inswsod02.gs.com [207.17.37.11]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g04M1Xo12619 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:01:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from insdbod02.inz.gs.com (unknown [207.17.36.75]) by inswsod02.gs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FDE31C08C for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:01:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from nbsapsm02.ny.ficc.gs.com by insdbod02.inz.gs.com with ESMTP for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:01:16 -0500 Received: from nbsadc111.ny.ficc.gs.com (nbsadc111.ny.ficc.gs.com [148.86.214.85]) by nbsapsm02.ny.ficc.gs.com (8.9.1a/8.9.0/wanhub) with ESMTP id RAA13962 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:01:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from gs.com (nbsadc111.ny.ficc.gs.com [148.86.214.85]) by nbsadc111.ny.ficc.gs.com (8.9.1a/8.9.0/wanhub) with ESMTP id RAA20509 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:01:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3C36261F.3152371E@gs.com> Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 17:01:03 -0500 From: "Joseph Boyer Jr." Organization: Goldman Sachs and Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Pros/Cons of complete rejumstart v.s. just patching OS images Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hey folks, Just wondering what people feelings are pertaining to patching the OS image or patching jump-start and than rejumpstarting the box. 1. Would you handle servers and workstations differently? 2. Dose anyone have a way of minimizing the reconfigure (after rejumpstart) time of a server, i.e. Dbase machines, print servers, mail hubs? thoughts, comments, flames. let me know! Thanks, Joe From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 4 14:05:24 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g04M32112635 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:03:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from sephiroth.byte-me.org (sephiroth.byte-me.org [216.15.105.106]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g04M2vo12631 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:02:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mallen@localhost) by sephiroth.byte-me.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g04M2HE19809; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:02:17 -0800 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:02:17 -0800 From: Mark Allen To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assesment for enterprise messaging? Message-ID: <20020104140217.A19604@sephiroth.byte-me.org> References: <1010160297.31451.6.camel@b-52.duckland.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VS++wcV0S1rZb1Fb" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from mbarr@mbarr.net on Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 02:37:04PM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --VS++wcV0S1rZb1Fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 02:37:04PM -0500, Matthew Barr wrote: > At the LISA conference, I heard mention of a way that allowed a Unix sys= tem > to emulate the major features of an Exchange server, such as calendaring,= as > well as the obvious email component. Does anyone have any more detailed > information about this? There's OpenMail from HP/Samsung (http://www.openmail.com), but I thought the goal was to replace the *client* side (i.e., the desktop Outlook progra= m) Frankly, I think the job to replace Outlook with Something Else will=20 probably cost a lot of money. On the other hand, maybe it will cost less than the next cleanup.=20 In any case, I wish good luck upon them. Mark (yay, mutt) --=20 Mark Allen -- mallen@byte-me.org -- http://www.byte-me.org/~mallen/ PGP: 0x5CDC2161 Mark Allen (Personal Key) =20 --VS++wcV0S1rZb1Fb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8NiZpWVr5gFzcIWERAo9QAKC5TFFP0v7vHPY8anPb42/JYeXwyQCgkurJ 0d1aTpXouQ7u6sk4CnvYNuY= =OXC+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VS++wcV0S1rZb1Fb-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 4 14:10:35 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g04M8P912709 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:08:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from tethys.bitshift.org (12-234-248-158.client.attbi.com [12.234.248.158]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g04M8Oo12704 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:08:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from skritch@localhost) by tethys.bitshift.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id g04M8DK49544 for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:08:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:08:13 -0800 From: "Mark C . Langston" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assesment for enterprise messaging? Message-ID: <20020104140812.Z7305@bitshift.org> References: <1010160297.31451.6.camel@b-52.duckland.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from mbarr@mbarr.net on Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 02:37:04PM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=9 env_From=9 From=9 Subject=2 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 02:37:04PM -0500, Matthew Barr wrote: > At the LISA conference, I heard mention of a way that allowed a Unix system > to emulate the major features of an Exchange server, such as calendaring, as > well as the obvious email component. Does anyone have any more detailed > information about this? > HP's OpenMail does this. I can't remember if they open-sourced the project or not, though. Hm. A quick check of http://www.hp.com/go/openmail/ says no. You must have a media supscription or support contract, and must buy licenses. They do have versions for HP-UX, AIX, Solaris, and Linux, however. As well as WAP and PDA client software. -- Mark C. Langston mark@bitshift.org Systems & Network Admin http://www.bitshift.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 4 14:26:21 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g04MO8712959 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:24:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.50]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g04MO6o12955 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:24:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop ([12.83.108.161]) by mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020104222348.YCSY15547.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@laptop> for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 22:23:48 +0000 Received: from jens by laptop with local (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 16Mckd-0001Rz-00 for ; Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:23:47 -0700 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assesment for enterprise messaging? References: Organization: - From: Jens Link Date: 04 Jan 2002 15:23:46 -0700 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <87n0ztwya5.fsf@quux.de> Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Copyleft) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=14 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=3 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Matthew Barr writes: > At the LISA conference, I heard mention of a way that allowed a Unix system > to emulate the major features of an Exchange server, such as calendaring, as > well as the obvious email component. Does anyone have any more detailed > information about this? I think that HP OpenMail[1] is (or better was?) something like an Exchange replacement for Linux and some other Unix systems. You might also take a look at PHP Groupware[2]. Jens Footnotes: [1] http://www.openmail.com [2] http://www.phpgroupware.org/apps/ -- I just found out that the brain is like a computer. If that's true, then there really aren't any stupid people. Just people running Windows. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 4 14:56:08 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g04MrkV13313 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:53:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj1-3-4-9.securesites.net (sj1-3-4-9.securesites.net [192.220.127.202]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g04Mrio13309 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:53:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 21831 invoked by uid 18647); 4 Jan 2002 22:53:32 -0000 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:53:32 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] (LDAP email addressing) Message-ID: <20020104145332.A21686@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <200201041000.g04A01w07200@usenix.org> <3C35AA90.2050604@research.att.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <3C35AA90.2050604@research.att.com>; from andrew@research.att.com on Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 08:13:52AM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 08:13:52AM -0500, Andrew Hume wrote: > speaking of LDAP, can someone point me at a tool to convert > simple "joe blow|pres@whitehouse.gov" style address books into > the LDAPish format that most mailers want these days? "Most mailers"? Now I'm intersted in knowing what that format IS :-) Are you just talking about the nasty x.500 style M$-exchange stuff? From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 4 15:16:04 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g04NDMW13604 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:13:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail3.infineon.com ([12.36.118.67]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g04NDLo13600 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:13:21 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: pwo@sjc.infineon.com (at relayer mail3.infineon.com) Received: from mail1.NA.Infineon.COM ([172.19.156.161]) by mail3.infineon.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g04NCxu02607; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:12:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbox.SJC.Infineon.COM (mbox [172.19.156.129]) by mail1.NA.Infineon.COM (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g04NCxW22477; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:12:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from w042.SJC.Infineon.COM (w042 [172.19.128.106]) by mbox.SJC.Infineon.COM (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g04NCwQ00305; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:12:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pwo@localhost) by w042.SJC.Infineon.COM (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g04NCw811592; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:12:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:12:58 -0800 From: "Peter W. Osel" To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assesment for enterprise messaging? Message-ID: <20020104151258.S11601@w042.SJC.Infineon.COM> References: <1010160297.31451.6.camel@b-52.duckland.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from mbarr@mbarr.net on Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 02:37:04PM -0500 Organization: Infineon Technologies, San Jose, CA, USA X-Phone: +1 408 501 6321 X-Time-Zone: USA PST, 9 hours _behind_ Central European Time X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=2 From=2 Subject=4 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> On Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 02:37:04PM -0500, "" == Matthew Barr wrote: > At the LISA conference, I heard mention of a way that allowed a Unix system > to emulate the major features of an Exchange server, such as calendaring, as > well as the obvious email component. Does anyone have any more detailed > information about this? Matthew Take a look at HP's OpenMail http://www.openmail.hp.com/cyc/om/00/index.html Cheers --pwo [Slogan of the moment] >>>>> And Now For Something Completely Different ... "there's nothing wrong with windows 2000 that linux can't fix." -- va linux t-shirt -- Peter W. Osel Sr. Network & Systems Manager Infineon Technologies Email: pwo@Infineon.COM North America Corp. Phone: +1 (408) 501 6321 1730 North First Street Fax: +1 (408) 501 2410 San Jose, CA 95112, USA WWW: http://pwo.de/ pgp key fingerprint = 79 2D DD 49 C0 AA D8 CF 2C F9 A5 6A BA 37 0E 28 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 4 15:55:33 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g04Nr9514291 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:53:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from bellona.wg.saar.de (root@bellona.wg.saar.de [192.109.53.23]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g04Nqro14283; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:52:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from saar.de (uweiss.dialin.Saar.DE [193.141.107.233] (may be forged)) by bellona.wg.saar.de (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g04NqTh26181; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 00:52:30 +0100 Message-ID: <3C364E4B.30C883B5@saar.de> Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 00:52:27 +0000 From: Uli Weis Organization: uw@home (Uli Weis) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.10-64GB-SMP i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org CC: sage-members@usenix.org, Etaoin Shrdlu , Margo Seltzer , bod@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative Nominations for USENIX Board of Directors Election References: <4.3.1.2.20020101211048.023becd0@127.0.0.1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=2 From=2 Subject=2 Message-ID=2 Received=2 Body=2 Fuz1=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Greg Rose wrote: > > Dear SAGE and USENIX members: > > As I announced on the sage-members@usenix.org mailing list, I have formed > an "alternative nominating committee" with a view towards coordinating > nominations, principally for the officers positions. What I was afraid of, > in the heated environment after the USENIX Board's action in dismissing two > members of the SAGE Executive, was that many people would self-nominate for > the election > (a) without understanding their obligations and duties > (b) without considering the overall slate of candidates, electability, and > so on. > > I'm pleased to say that we succeeded in discouraging a number of potential > candidates -- but don't take that the wrong way, all were well-meaning, and > we very much appreciate their involvement and interest. Some, in > retrospect, felt that they really wanted to be more involved with the SAGE > executive anyway, so I think we've helped towards filling those vacancies. > Good news, that you found quite a lot of wellknown and competent people. So I can join the crowd, who don't (need to) candidate (which earns you love from my family). And probably you don't even need any "supporter votes" of members "in good standing" (whatever that means)... The report of the "official" nominating committee shows, IMHO, that alternative nominations are really necessary (too much biased on research, who is really in touch with systems administration on that list?). Naturally, this doesn't mean, that the candidates on the "official list" are "bad" (I really like to have Ted Ts'o on the Board and I'm wondering, why Maddog Hall isn't on the "official list"). What I'm still missing, is a non-native English-speaker (no UK and no Australian) being nominated. [... some stuff deleted ...] > > sincerely, > Greg Rose (for the "alternative nominating committee") > Thanks for your work! I believe it will be positive for the whole organization. Greetings from the Saarland (Germany) -uw -- Uli Weis, FB EDV/Informatik, vhs Stadtverband Saarbruecken (Saarland, Germany) Office: +49 (681) 506 4342 (Fax 4398), ulrich.weis@svsbr.de Home: uw@saar.de or uw@guug.de From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 4 15:58:03 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g04Ntt314367 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:55:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ece.cmu.edu (ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.136.200]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g04Ntro14363 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:55:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pyanfar.ece.cmu.edu (allbery@VPN85.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.138.85]) (authenticated) by ece.cmu.edu (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g04Ntdg17818; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 18:55:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assesment for enterprise messaging? From: "Brandon S. Allbery "KF8NH To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0 (Preview Release) Date: 04 Jan 2002 18:55:36 -0500 Message-Id: <1010188540.25239.0.camel@vpn85.ece.cmu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=12 env_From=2 From=2 Subject=3 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 2002-01-04 at 14:37, Matthew Barr wrote: > At the LISA conference, I heard mention of a way that allowed a Unix system > to emulate the major features of an Exchange server, such as calendaring, as > well as the obvious email component. Does anyone have any more detailed > information about this? The only one that comes to mind offhand is HP OpenMail, which largely emulates Exchange. -- brandon s. allbery [os/2][linux][solaris][japh] allbery@kf8nh.apk.net system administrator [WAY too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering KF8NH carnegie mellon university ["better check the oblivious first" -ke6sls] From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 4 16:45:26 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g050bsv15117 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:37:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from ece.cmu.edu (ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.136.200]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g050bqo15113 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:37:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pyanfar.ece.cmu.edu (allbery@VPN85.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.138.85]) (authenticated) by ece.cmu.edu (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g050bZg19673; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 19:37:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assesment for enterprise messaging? From: "Brandon S. Allbery "KF8NH To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <20020104140217.A19604@sephiroth.byte-me.org> References: <1010160297.31451.6.camel@b-52.duckland.org> <20020104140217.A19604@sephiroth.byte-me.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0 (Preview Release) Date: 04 Jan 2002 19:37:29 -0500 Message-Id: <1010191056.25239.6.camel@vpn85.ece.cmu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=13 env_From=3 From=3 Subject=4 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 2002-01-04 at 17:02, Mark Allen wrote: > There's OpenMail from HP/Samsung (http://www.openmail.com), but I thought > the goal was to replace the *client* side (i.e., the desktop Outlook program) I dunno, Evolution's been making me really happy the past few weeks.... -- brandon s. allbery [os/2][linux][solaris][japh] allbery@kf8nh.apk.net system administrator [WAY too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering KF8NH carnegie mellon university ["better check the oblivious first" -ke6sls] From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 4 16:53:05 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g050jtj15331 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:45:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from sephiroth.byte-me.org (sephiroth.byte-me.org [216.15.105.106]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g050jso15327 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:45:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mallen@localhost) by sephiroth.byte-me.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g050jJE22449; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:45:19 -0800 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:45:19 -0800 From: Mark Allen To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: Mark Allen , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assesment for enterprise messaging? Message-ID: <20020104164519.A22242@sephiroth.byte-me.org> References: <1010160297.31451.6.camel@b-52.duckland.org> <20020104140217.A19604@sephiroth.byte-me.org> <1010191056.25239.6.camel@vpn85.ece.cmu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wac7ysb48OaltWcw" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <1010191056.25239.6.camel@vpn85.ece.cmu.edu>; from allbery@ece.cmu.edu on Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 07:37:29PM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=2 From=3 Subject=8 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --wac7ysb48OaltWcw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 07:37:29PM -0500, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: > I dunno, Evolution's been making me really happy the past few weeks.... Me too. I use it at work. We use Yahoo Calendar for meetings and=20 appointments which seems to work pretty well. But I am (and I presume you are too) a big Linux egg. =20 Evolution plays well with me, but I can't imagine putting a Linux desktop= =20 in front of Joe Random Salesdroid. Putting up with the ensuing whining would be worse than cleaning up the next Nimda/CodeRed outbreak. :-) Mark --=20 Mark Allen -- mallen@byte-me.org -- http://www.byte-me.org/~mallen/ PGP: 0x5CDC2161 Mark Allen (Personal Key) =20 --wac7ysb48OaltWcw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8NkyfWVr5gFzcIWERAvR8AKCSqNTyEPUebbMlpdJpQAFjLsMiyACgr3/P 1MpM0hqfTRtPBjbeJ0WdfJs= =6aqU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wac7ysb48OaltWcw-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 4 17:01:18 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g050s8X15478 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:54:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from obento.cs.caltech.edu (obento.cs.caltech.edu [131.215.44.101]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g050s7o15474 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:54:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu (dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu [131.215.44.94]) by obento.cs.caltech.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6FFC4050; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:53:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cmalek@localhost) by dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA28089; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:53:50 -0800 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:53:50 -0800 From: Christopher Malek To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pros/Cons of complete rejumstart v.s. just patching OS images Message-ID: <20020104165350.O23599@dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu> References: <3C36261F.3152371E@gs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C36261F.3152371E@gs.com>; from joseph.boyer@gs.com on Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 05:01:03PM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk My preference is to re-jumpstart everything to apply new patches, as this ensures that my Jumpstart setup is in good working order, and is current. For workstations, my rule is to try not to do anything manually, so they always get jumpstarted for new system patches. Although I tend to let patches build up so that I can apply them in lumps (except for security patches, which I try to do as soon as possible) so that I'm not constantly jumpstarting things. For servers, it depends on how much 'extra' customization I had to do to them -- I don't have all my services installable through Jumpstart yet. My goal is to have all my services installable through Jumpstart, so that hopefully I can go from bare metal to fully configured system in about an hour for most things. This really depends on what an acceptable amount of downtime is for you -- I can live with an hour's downtime on most of my machines. Chris On Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 05:01:03PM -0500, Joseph Boyer Jr. wrote: > Hey folks, > > Just wondering what people feelings are pertaining to patching the OS > image or patching jump-start and than rejumpstarting the box. > > 1. Would you handle servers and workstations differently? > 2. Dose anyone have a way of minimizing the reconfigure (after > rejumpstart) time of a server, i.e. Dbase machines, print servers, mail > hubs? > > thoughts, comments, flames. > > let me know! > > Thanks, > Joe > -- cmalek@caltech.edu Teipsum Nosce Office: (626) 395-2593 Fax: (626) 792-4257 Mail Stop: 014-81 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 4 17:04:32 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g050vOc15514 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:57:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ece.cmu.edu (ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.136.200]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g050vMo15510 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:57:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from pyanfar.ece.cmu.edu (allbery@VPN85.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.138.85]) (authenticated) by ece.cmu.edu (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g050v7g20533; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 19:57:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assesment for enterprise messaging? From: "Brandon S. Allbery "KF8NH To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <20020104164519.A22242@sephiroth.byte-me.org> References: <1010160297.31451.6.camel@b-52.duckland.org> <20020104140217.A19604@sephiroth.byte-me.org> <1010191056.25239.6.camel@vpn85.ece.cmu.edu> <20020104164519.A22242@sephiroth.byte-me.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0 (Preview Release) Date: 04 Jan 2002 19:57:05 -0500 Message-Id: <1010192228.25239.13.camel@vpn85.ece.cmu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=14 env_From=4 From=4 Subject=5 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 2002-01-04 at 19:45, Mark Allen wrote: > But I am (and I presume you are too) a big Linux egg. Actually, I prefer FreeBSD... but the same comments apply. (Although we do have a growing Linux userbase here....) -- brandon s. allbery [os/2][linux][solaris][japh] allbery@kf8nh.apk.net system administrator [WAY too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering KF8NH carnegie mellon university ["better check the oblivious first" -ke6sls] From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 4 17:16:41 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0519T115666 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:09:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pallas.eruditorum.org (postfix@pallas.eruditorum.org [63.251.136.85]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0519So15662 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:09:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by pallas.eruditorum.org (Postfix, from userid 503) id D624D118AD; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 20:09:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 20:09:15 -0500 From: "Melissa D. Binde" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pros/Cons of complete rejumstart v.s. just patching OS images Message-ID: <20020104200915.B30976@terindell.com> References: <3C36261F.3152371E@gs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C36261F.3152371E@gs.com>; from joseph.boyer@gs.com on Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 05:01:03PM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=3 env_From=3 From=3 Subject=2 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Twas brillig, on Fri Jan 04 at 05:01:03 PM, and Joseph Boyer Jr. burbled: > Just wondering what people feelings are pertaining to patching the OS > image or patching jump-start and than rejumpstarting the box. We have a strong preference for re-installing the OS, because then you know exactly what you're going to get if you ever need to re-create the machine (because of an outage, or because you need one more of these.) The disadvantage is you definitely have to take an outage, possibly a protracted outage (depends on how long it takes to do the re-install); so if you're not in an N+1 (or N+M) redundant configuration, this can be impossible. > 1. Would you handle servers and workstations differently? If you can keep your user data on a different partition and avoid blowing that away on re-install, then no, it's good to treat them the same way. > 2. Dose anyone have a way of minimizing the reconfigure (after > rejumpstart) time of a server, i.e. Dbase machines, print servers, mail > hubs? We have a home-grown tool that manages all of our OS configurations (and software installations, and accounts, and.... etc.), so this isn't a problem for us (hence the big focus on re-installing whenever we can.) cfengine is a good start for this sort of project. -M. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 4 18:22:45 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g052Dpx16362 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 18:13:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls4.std.com [199.172.62.106]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g052DXo16354; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 18:13:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell.TheWorld.com (spock@shell01.TheWorld.com [199.172.62.241]) by TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA16462; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:13:20 -0500 Received: (from adamm@localhost) by shell.TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA7328646; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:13:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200201050213.VAA7328646@shell.TheWorld.com> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative Nominations for USENIX Board of Directors To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:13:19 -0500 (EST) Cc: sage-members@usenix.org, shrdlu@deaddrop.org, margo@eecs.harvard.edu, bod@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <3C364E4B.30C883B5@saar.de> from "Uli Weis" at Jan 05, 2002 12:52:27 AM From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=6 From=6 Subject=2 Message-ID=2 Received=2 Body=2 Fuz1=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 05 Jan 2002 00:52:27 +0000, Uli Weis wrote: > The report of the "official" nominating committee shows, IMHO, that > alternative nominations are really necessary (too much biased on research, > who is really in touch with systems administration on that list?). At least three out of the eight candidates nominated by the nominating committee are (to the best of my knowledge) sysadmins: Lois Bennett, Tina Darmohray, and me (Adam Moskowitz). That's 37.5 percent! Not bad, given that the primary focus of USENIX is "Advanced Computing Systems" and not "system administration." Also, Peter Honeyman has published several LISA papers. AdamM From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 4 22:18:12 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0566p217531 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 22:06:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com (mail-blue.research.att.com [135.207.30.102]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0566co17522; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 22:06:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.research.att.com (postal.research.att.com [135.207.23.30]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9EE34CE07; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 01:06:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com (castle7117.research.att.com [135.207.231.117]) by postal.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA11197; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 01:03:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C3697DE.7060705@research.att.com> Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 01:06:22 -0500 From: Andrew Hume User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: Greg Rose , sage-members@usenix.org, Etaoin Shrdlu , Margo Seltzer , bod@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative Nominations for USENIX Board of Directors Election References: <4.3.1.2.20020101211048.023becd0@127.0.0.1> <3C364E4B.30C883B5@saar.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=11 env_From=15 From=16 Subject=2 Message-ID=2 Received=2 Body=2 Fuz1=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Uli Weis wrote: >The report of the "official" nominating committee shows, IMHO, that alternative >nominations are really necessary (too much biased on research, who is really >in touch with systems administration on that list?) > > >Thanks for your work! I believe it will be positive for the whole >organization. > uli, i am puzzled by these statements of yours. it is almost as if you weren't aware that this election is for teh USENIX board. USENIX is the advanced computing systems association; its conferences and publications are where academics and researchers share their research, people talk about how the research works when put into practice, and sys admins talk about how to manage and deploy those technologies. where do you think we would be without strong representation from, or visibility within, the research and academic communities? through years of hard work, by the USENIX boards, by dedicated program chairs, by the staff, we are in the enviable position where the USENIX name on a proceedings almost guarantees its quality. in fact, if you order conferences by number of times papers from those events are cited, USENIX runs 3 of the top 4 (OSDI, USITS, and the Annual conference); in fact, if you group all the General Technical conferences together, we have the top 3 [see http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/impact.html]. apparently you don't know the nominated candidates well, either. loosely speaking, i think it would be fair to roughly group them as a) academics: honeyman, long b) researchers: jones, rubin c) sys admins: bennett, darmohray, moskowitz d) working stiffs: cole, t'so e) others: gilmore, mckusick i note that sys admins are in fact the largest subgroup. and even if you combine researchers and academics together (and throw in mckusick for good measure), all of those together are 5 of 11, or less than half. (i would also note that honeyman, cole and mckusick, at least, have long experience with system administration, even if that is not their primary job.) as for greg's group's work being good for the organisation, how can you tell? his motivation, as he said, was to to correct the mistake that no "SAGE-positive" were nominated at the last USENIX election, without over-correcting. (i have no idea what this means really; i was nominated and i have worked my butt off working with the SAGE Exec (for several years) and helping with Certification. my intent and effort have always been for teh good of SAGE. i, and others nominated, are SAGE members as well.) he plowed into this activity without waiting to see who was nominated, and the end result was a slate of 9 candidates for 8 positions. (i have trouble imagining what over-correcting would look like!) i note also that maddog is characterised as not SAGE-positive (because he was nominated last time) but is "sympathetic with the goals of SAGE"; this seems contradictory to me. to the extent that greg is somehow helping people participate in the democratic process, that's great. to the extent that greg is helping politicise the elections, i think that's bad for all USENIX members. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Jan 5 07:09:02 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g05F3Pk19632 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 07:03:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from femme.sapphite.org (root@cc2219923-b.erlght1.md.home.com [65.9.33.31]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g05F1Eo19616; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 07:01:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from femme.sapphite.org (lynch@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by femme.sapphite.org (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g05ExGE2029077; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 09:59:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by femme.sapphite.org (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) with ESMTP id g05ExFto029074; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 09:59:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: femme.sapphite.org: lynch owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 09:59:09 -0500 (EST) From: Trish Lynch X-X-Sender: To: sage-members@usenix.org cc: , Greg Rose , Etaoin Shrdlu , Margo Seltzer , Subject: Re: [SAGE] Alternative Nominations for USENIX Board of Directors Election In-Reply-To: <3C3697DE.7060705@research.att.com> Message-ID: <20020105095003.V96555-100000@femme.sapphite.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=2 From=2 Subject=5 Message-ID=2 Received=2 Body=2 Fuz1=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sat, 5 Jan 2002, Andrew Hume wrote: > > as for greg's group's work being good for the organisation, how can > you tell? > his motivation, as he said, was to to correct the mistake that no > "SAGE-positive" > were nominated at the last USENIX election, without over-correcting. (i > have no > idea what this means really; i was nominated and i have worked my butt > off working > with the SAGE Exec (for several years) and helping with Certification. > my intent and effort > have always been for teh good of SAGE. Andrew, nobody, as far as I can see is criticizing your work for SAGE, or USENIX for that matter, in fact speaking for myself, I'm grateful for all the work you have done. This year , especially the last few months I'm sure has been "the hell year" for you in regards to this. And I'm glad you stuck to your guns, and have expressed your opinion. I may not totally agree with you, but I am glad you have been there for us. > to the extent that greg is somehow helping people participate in the > democratic process, > that's great. to the extent that greg is helping politicise the > elections, i think that's bad > for all USENIX members. > > I think, in retrospect, what Greg did was very good for us as an organization, it has headed off some major dissatisfaction in SAGE over the events from the viability review. In essence, what Greg did was calm things down a bit. I don;t think its politicizing it at all. I think what it did in fact is minimize the politicizing, and flooding of the nominations with many other parties. In fact, I think the nominations that Greg's group came up with were very good ones. I'm not disputing the facts that USENIX is for the advancement of computer research, but at the same time, I think Greg did a good job at "damage control", for the good of both SAGE and USENIX. I applaud both of you. I'm glad we have people who care willing to do the work for SAGE, I personally don't have much time, and I'm willing to volunteer what I have, but you and Greg and all the others nominated have gone "above and beyond" in many senses, and I don't think anybody is trying to seem ungrateful for your work. I know, I for one, am very grateful, and thought that this might be an appropriate time to express this. So, thanks! to both you and Greg and everyone else that worked hard on both the nominations and damage control after the viability review. - -Trish - -- Trish Lynch trish@bsdunix.net FreeBSD The Power to Serve Ecartis Core Team http://www.ecartis.org formerly Listar http://www.listar.org Network Security Engineer tlynch@camelotta.com Camelot Technical Advisors http://www.camelotta.com Key fingerprint = C44E 8E63 6E3C 18BD 608F E004 9DC7 C2E9 0E24 DFBD -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8NxTCncfC6Q4k370RAvoyAJ9a5cNkOIEkTB3OoIhUCtJ52B7n3gCgjRt/ C2FfVITuzTL4Psaskl7W5cE= =TimH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Jan 6 01:45:04 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g069WgV23429 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 01:32:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj1-3-4-9.securesites.net (sj1-3-4-9.securesites.net [192.220.127.202]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g069Weo23425 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 01:32:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 57426 invoked by uid 18647); 6 Jan 2002 09:32:28 -0000 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 01:32:28 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] here's a ksh sample program tutorial Message-ID: <20020106013228.A57219@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <3C36261F.3152371E@gs.com> <20020104200915.B30976@terindell.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20020104200915.B30976@terindell.com>; from binde@terindell.com on Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 08:09:15PM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=2 From=3 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Howdy folks, For those people interested in shell scripting, I added a new page to my ksh tutorial site, which shows different versions of the same potentially simple task. They range from a two-line no-brainer, to full paranoia. Hopefully, all but veteran shellscripters will find something of interest in the page. http://www.bolthole.com/solaris/ksh-sampleprog.html [There are also links to the top level of my tutorial, in the page] From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Jan 6 08:53:39 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g06Glqu24773 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 08:47:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from web20508.mail.yahoo.com (web20508.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.143]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g06Glpo24769 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 08:47:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020106164737.777.qmail@web20508.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.214.166.237] by web20508.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 06 Jan 2002 08:47:37 PST Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 08:47:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Mark R. Lindsey" Reply-To: lindsey@acm.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pros/Cons of complete rejumstart v.s. just patching OS images To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <3C36261F.3152371E@gs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=5 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Just wondering what people feelings are pertaining to patching the OS > image or patching jump-start and than rejumpstarting the box. In theory (i.e., ideally) you should be able to get the same results by patching an existing system as you would by re-installing. None of the systems that I've maintained support re-installation as a mechanism for maintaining the system; these are Red Hat Linux, Solaris, and FreeBSD. The major OS releases are always ammended with bug fixes which include updates critical to security. The Debian Linux philosophy holds that one should almost-never re-install a system; i.e., it's maintained by updating the component packages. However, at any point, a system can be compromised and therefore cannot be trusted. This is an example of the sort of case where no amount of patching can be known to fix the system; afaik, the only deterministic way to restore the system is to re-install from a trusted source medium (e.g., cdrom). > 2. Dose anyone have a way of minimizing the reconfigure (after > rejumpstart) time of a server, i.e. Dbase machines, print servers, mail > hubs? I've done a bit of research on this at Commerce Engine; incidentally, I think it has some commonalities with service relocation as studied for mobile devices. I think that the `system' is composed of three disjoint software elements: -> the operating system -- which is copied from source medium and from vendor-supplied patches -> the system configuration (lots of stuff under /etc, plus filesystem symlinks, etc.) -> `operating data' (such as mail spools, database files, etc). I'd like to see us (system administrators) develop some consistent, uniform ways to encapsulate each of these. Most Unices seem to have some sort of automated OS installation (e.g., jumpstart; kickstart). So any number of `virgin' systems with suitably-compatable hardware configurations can be installed with functionally-identical OS installations. This will let us cleanly recover the system to its original-medium installed state. Then we have to find some way to apply patches consistently. Not every unix makes this so easy, but it's necessary in order to restore a system to its properly-updated, installed state. Fortunately, if you can decouple the OS from the configuration, the OS needn't be `backed up' in the conventional sense -- you can always re-install it. Next, the system configuration needs to be applied. cfengine provides a good framework for this task; with it, you can conveniently write scripts that encode your configuration. Then on a newly-installed/restored OS installation, you can run cfengine with the scripts you've written to bring to restore the configuration. The configuration must be backed-up, or, to be precise, the programs which generate the configuration. Fortunately, though, configuration programs tend to be tiny. Last, you need to restore the `operating data'. For a mail server, this will be a bunch of mail files. For a web server, this might be a combination of cgi programs and files. Obviously, this data will need to be backed-up. If you're able to decouple each service's configuration and operating data, then you should be able to move services between servers. E.g., maybe your mail server includes a few configuration scripts and a bunch of mail spool files. If you can programmatically identify the components, then you can modify the configuration/re-installation script to move mail service from machine `foo' to machine `bar' in a straightforward way. Maybe, someday, we'll be able to make this entirely automated. But there's a lot of work to be done. There are some complexities that perturb the Configuration Theory that I'm describing; e.g., the Oracle database server software doesn't easily fit into any of the data catagories -- OS, configuration, or operating data. In theory, it needs to be installed and patched just like the OS. And sometimes the OS and the configuration cannot be made disjoint; some configuration tasks force you to modify OS-supplied scripts. For example, to setup a wireless network card in Red Hat 7.1, one must edit /etc/pcmcia/wireless.opts -- an OS-supplied script. Fortunately for practice, though, most of RH's configuration is encapsulated in definition files under /etc/sysconfig which are (by my definitions) not strictly part of the OS. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Jan 6 10:58:18 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g06IrUr25179 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 10:53:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from zaxxon.telerama.com (zaxxon.telerama.com [205.201.1.215]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g06IrRo25175 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 10:53:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (deeann@localhost) by zaxxon.telerama.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g06Ir5Q35437 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 13:53:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from deeann@telerama.com) X-Authentication-Warning: zaxxon.telerama.com: deeann owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 13:53:05 -0500 (EST) From: deeann mikula To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] ack! nytimes OKs spam! Message-ID: <20020106132337.B56491-100000@zaxxon.telerama.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk well, he doesn't ok spam, but here is the quote: "And were you to send out a mass mailing, you would do the recipients no harm...Junk e-mail annoys but does not injure." from the sunday magazine's weekly column "the ethicist" by randy cohen. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/06/magazine/06ETHICIST.html (hint, if you are not a nytimes-online subscriber, it's FREE, just sign up!) once i stopped freaking out, i sat down and wrote him a letter (which is below.) if anyone else is feeling politically active, feel free to write one too. (please read the whole article first, of course, you will find his address in it.) ack! deeann m.m. mikula director of operations telerama public access internet http://www.telerama.com 1.877.688.3200 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Ethicist, I commend your response regarding the ethical responsibility of your reader to not "reply to all" and send unsolicited mail to the clients' cc:'d addresses. This would be both unethical and also illegal in some states. (The Ethicist, January 6, 2002.) However, your statement "And were you to send out a mass mailing, you would do the recipients no harm...Junk e-mail annoys but does not injure" is simply incorrect. The recipient of unsolicited commercial e-mails (aka "spam e-mail") may simply delete the offending message. No problem, right? Wrong, that user has already paid heavily for the delivery of that message. The recipient must pay for e-mail storage, and must pay his e-mail provider for the service. He pays for this junk e-mail in other ways, too: in slower transport time for his e-mail messages, in slower access to the Internet because his Internet Service Provider's bandwidth is being used up by junk e-mail senders. He pays for this in down-time to his e-mail service caused by floods of junk e-mail. It is in these costs of providing e-mail and transport of e-mail that the damage begins to mount up. It is accepted that approximately 30% of the e-mail traffic today is comprised of e-mail that no one wants, and that figure is rising. Someone must pay for (and support) bigger and beefier machines to deliver this amount of e-mail, and bigger connections to the Internet to receive and send it. These costs are translated into higher access costs to the consumer for the e-mail that they want to receive. See http://www.cauce.org/about/problem.shtml for further discussion of the hidden costs and problems of junk e-mail. It is irresponsible to blithely comment "junk e-mail annoys but does not injure." Spam e-mail injures ALL Internet users today, whether they are themselves unfortunate recipients of the junk or not. Junk e-mail is one of the largest problems faced by Internet Service Providers today. Comments like yours make me realize that we are far from solving the problem of junk e-mail. Deeann Mikula Director of Operations, Telerama Internet, Pittsburgh, PA From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Jan 6 15:30:25 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g06NOnc26378 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 15:24:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pallas.eruditorum.org (postfix@pallas.eruditorum.org [63.251.136.85]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g06NOmo26374 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 15:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by pallas.eruditorum.org (Postfix, from userid 503) id 5BD9411A64; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 18:24:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 18:24:34 -0500 From: "Melissa D. Binde" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pros/Cons of complete rejumstart v.s. just patching OS images Message-ID: <20020106182434.A9100@terindell.com> References: <3C36261F.3152371E@gs.com> <20020106164737.777.qmail@web20508.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020106164737.777.qmail@web20508.mail.yahoo.com>; from markrlindsey@yahoo.com on Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 08:47:37AM -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=5 env_From=5 From=6 Subject=7 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Twas brillig, on Sun Jan 06 at 08:47:37 AM, and Mark R. Lindsey burbled: > Fortunately, if you can decouple the OS from the configuration, > the OS needn't be `backed up' in the conventional sense -- you can > always re-install it. > > Next, the system configuration needs to be applied. cfengine provides > a good framework for this task; with it, you can conveniently write > scripts that encode your configuration. Then on a newly-installed/restored > OS installation, you can run cfengine with the scripts you've written > to bring to restore the configuration. One additional reason to avoid putting your OS configs into your automated install mechanism is that if you work in a multi-vendor shop, you end up duplicating a lot of effort if you need to have similarly-configured hosts of multiple OS's. We do as little configuration in the kickstart/jumpstart/ignite/ris/etc. scripts as possible. This also makes it much easier to migrate to a new OS for a given service, and it makes it easier to determine that, for example, you've applied the correct changes to the sendmail.cf on all the hosts, not just your Solaris hosts. There are a lot of different data types to deal with, and sometimes variations within a type (your user accounts may need to be able to be updated more frequently than, for example, /etc/hsots.) The considerations we've used to distinguish between data types are: - recreatability - (solutions include no backups, tape backups, hot/warm/cold spares and failovers, or simply making a copy to another machine, possibly in another datacenter/country) - does it need to be backed up? - if so, how fast do we need to get at it, and how far back in time? - distribution requirements - (solutions include NFS, local disk, pushing the data, pulling the data, and touching each host individually) - how syncronized across hosts/datacenters/countries? - how much 'drift' is tolerated? - how fast do changes have to get out there... - normally? - in rare 'emergency' situations? - who can change/distribute the data? - are there other security requirements? - do we need to distribute changes sometimes to just a subset of the targets? - do changes need to be tested first, somehow? - can other entities (other than the target host) have access to the data? - if a host is down during a data change..... - do we have to know it was down? - can the change wait until the host gets back up? - does it need to get the update before it begins normal operations? - if not, how long can it go? - do we have a complete list of the target hosts? - what happens when the list changes? - how likely is it to be kept up to date? - what happens if a host NEVER gets a change? - volitility and size - how much does it change, if ever? - how big does it get.... - normally? - at peak? - how big is the peak? - any seasonal considerations? -i.e. predictable variations in the above at month end, year end, etc. (this probably isn't the optimal arrangement of these issues; I don't have this written down succintly anywhere, my apologies.) A good example is user accounts: We don't need these backed up on an individual machine basis, but the central datastore needs to be recoverable very quickly We've decided we can have a 'drift' of up to 4 hours normally, but in an emergency situation (e.g. a high-profile or high-access adverse employee termination) we need to be able to get the update out there in X minutes instead. No one other than the target host should have access to the crypted password strings (we use shadowed passwords.) etc. etc. etc. I've found that looking at our data (OS, OS configs, user-land data, databases, home-grown software, open source software, commercial software, etc.) with these considerations in mind has made it much easier to figure out where in the lifecycle you should make your changes, how you should make them, and with what tools. It's easy to over- or under-engineer a solution and end up causing unnecessary expenses (either through too much network bandwidth, or through not being able to fix a problem in a timely manner.) -M. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 7 10:54:22 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g07IeBG02592 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:40:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail4.infineon.com ([12.36.118.68]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g07IeAo02588 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:40:10 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: pwo@sjc.infineon.com (at relayer mail4.infineon.com) Received: from mail1.NA.Infineon.COM ([172.19.156.161]) by mail4.infineon.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g07IdpT01680 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:39:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbox.SJC.Infineon.COM (mbox [172.19.156.129]) by mail1.NA.Infineon.COM (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g07IdoW09682 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:39:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from w042.SJC.Infineon.COM (w042 [172.19.128.106]) by mbox.SJC.Infineon.COM (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g07IdoQ16267 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:39:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pwo@localhost) by w042.SJC.Infineon.COM (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g07IdoY16418 for sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:39:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:39:50 -0800 From: "Peter W. Osel" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Looking for the 1995 LISA CD-ROM Message-ID: <20020107103950.E11828@w042.SJC.Infineon.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: Infineon Technologies, San Jose, CA, USA X-Phone: +1 408 501 6321 X-Time-Zone: USA PST, 9 hours _behind_ Central European Time X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=3 From=4 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, doing some cleanup over Xmas I noticed that my 1995 LISA CD-ROM broke and that I did not have a backup :-( (How embarassing to have to admit this ;-) Could anyone send me the CD (if they don't want to hang on to it anymore), send me a copy, or make it available through ftp? Cheers --pwo -- Peter W. Osel Sr. Network & Systems Manager Infineon Technologies Email: pwo@Infineon.COM North America Corp. Phone: +1 (408) 501 6321 1730 North First Street Fax: +1 (408) 501 2410 San Jose, CA 95112, USA WWW: http://pwo.de/ pgp key fingerprint = 79 2D DD 49 C0 AA D8 CF 2C F9 A5 6A BA 37 0E 28 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 7 13:41:58 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g07LcFx05947 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:38:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from gatekeeper.dpbox.dhs.org (dsl-216-227-100-85.telocity.com [216.227.100.85]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g07LcDo05942 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:38:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from vector.usa.net ([192.168.0.50]) by gatekeeper.dpbox.dhs.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g07Kq1f12185 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 14:52:01 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020107154150.04f05270@pop.netaddress.com> X-Sender: dpuryear@pop.netaddress.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:47:03 -0600 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Dustin Puryear Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assessment for enterprise messaging? In-Reply-To: References: <1010160297.31451.6.camel@b-52.duckland.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 02:37 PM 1/4/2002 -0500, Matthew Barr wrote: >At the LISA conference, I heard mention of a way that allowed a Unix system >to emulate the major features of an Exchange server, such as calendaring, as >well as the obvious email component. Does anyone have any more detailed >information about this? I think the major resistance most people have to moving away from Exchange is the shared folders and calendar feature. Obviously, the shared folders feature isn't really all that interesting or difficult to replace, but the shared calendar might be. At least, having it as well integrated into the PIM as it is with Exchange and Outlook. Why doesn't this service exist in the UNIX space? There are web applications to do this, but I will be the first to say it's nice to have all of your contacts and calendars integrated into one piece of software. We have IMAP which gives us server-side storage, but where is the shared calendar component? Has there been any work on this? It seems that with this one component there would be a real competitor to Exchange/Outlook in terms of information management for the desktop. Regards, Dustin --- Dustin Puryear Information Systems Consultant http://members.telocity.com/~dpuryear In the beginning the Universe was created. This has been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 8 08:08:04 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g08G0jD14005 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ops.yyz.gnac.net (firewall-user@[209.250.142.227]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g08G0ho14001 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:00:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by ops.yyz.gnac.net; id IAA09297; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:09:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from nodnsquery(192.168.16.187) by firewall.ops.yyz.gnac.net via smap (V5.0) id xma009288; Tue, 8 Jan 02 08:08:52 -0800 Received: (from jsellens@localhost) by gc0.generalconcepts.com (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g08FxMI39702; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:59:22 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jsellens) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:59:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200201081559.g08FxMI39702@gc0.generalconcepts.com> From: John Sellens To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assessment for enterprise messaging? X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk | Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 16:47:03 -0500 | From: Dustin Puryear | | Why doesn't this service exist in the UNIX space? There are web | applications to do this, but I will be the first to say it's nice to have | all of your contacts and calendars integrated into one piece of software. | We have IMAP which gives us server-side storage, but where is the shared | calendar component? >From my references list: * Corporate Time - now the company name is Steltor http://www.steltor.com/ http://www.cst.ca/prod/index.html * OnTime from Open Text http://www.opentext.com/ontime/ but the server is only NT or Novell, though maybe Sun in the future. * CyberScheduler / Synchronize http://www.crosswind.com/cybdata.htm * Netscape http://help.netscape.com/products/server/calendar/ which is apparently Corporate Time in disguise. * Meeting Maker http://www.meetingmaker6.com/ * Queen's evaluation: http://www.its.queensu.ca/services/policy/cs/ * TWIG groupware - in PHP, and free http://screwdriver.net/twig/ * Amphora light - scheduling, calendar, tasks, contacts http://www.amphora.ee/freeware/ Full commercial product also available. Estonian. Perhaps less polished than some. There's a few other projects around that I've seen. Synchronize is a well established product, used lots of places. I've seen Meeting Maker, but never used it. When we looked last year, we agreed with Queen's University that Corporate Time looked best. So, there's actually a number of UNIX implementations, that scale very well. But the prevalence of Windows, and the appearance of Exchange/Outlook being nearly "free", makes it a hard sell. John jsellens@generalconcepts.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 8 08:56:55 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g08GsRc14425 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:54:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.10]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g08GsQo14420 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:54:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.253.64.63] (murmer.cit.cornell.edu [128.253.64.63]) by postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14655 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:54:11 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: tco2@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020107154150.04f05270@pop.netaddress.com> References: <1010160297.31451.6.camel@b-52.duckland.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020107154150.04f05270@pop.netaddress.com> Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:54:56 -0500 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Todd Olson Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assessment for enterprise messaging? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi I'm not sure this is relevant, but ... At Cornell University we are doing our shared calendaring with Corporate Time http://www.steltor.com/ Server system requirements are at http://www.steltor.com/products/index.cfm?fuseaction=product&GrID=cts The FAQs at the website suggest there is even a way for outlook to be a client of this service. We have implemented it on solaris boxes, clients on windows, macs, unix, and via web. It seems to scale, in a distributed manner pretty well. We currently have close to 5000 people on one node, with other major segments of the university running on other nodes that inter-communicate. After a year of studing available products, and now 1.5 years of operation it seems as though this product does the job. As A user I have not complaints. I'm not on the person operating it so I don't know what the war stories were/are, but from what I have heard it has not been too bad. We do our e-mail via sendmail (on solaris) (35,000 mailboxes ???) with Eudora as the prefered client. We've just move the campus directory from an QI/PH implementation to an LDAP implementation (on Solaris). This can be queried from with in Eudora, and directly on a web page. We are looking at accessing it from Corporate Time as well. It seems to meet our needs for shared calendaring, address books, and e-mail. I have no idea how this compares to an Exchange environment. The flexibility of have the various parts separate but interoperate is very nice. We can upgrade one part with disturbing the other parts. Regards, Todd Olson Cornell University >At 02:37 PM 1/4/2002 -0500, Matthew Barr wrote: >>At the LISA conference, I heard mention of a way that allowed a Unix system >>to emulate the major features of an Exchange server, such as calendaring, as >>well as the obvious email component. Does anyone have any more detailed >>information about this? > >I think the major resistance most people have to moving away from Exchange is the shared folders and calendar feature. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 8 10:28:47 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g08IQ9E15980 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:26:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from grover.snew.com (grover.snew.com [206.136.66.62]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g08IQ1o15975 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified FAIL) for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:26:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by grover.snew.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g08IPhi27656; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:25:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:25:42 -0800 From: Chuck Yerkes To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assessment for enterprise messaging? Message-ID: <20020108102542.A27239@snew.com> References: <200201081559.g08FxMI39702@gc0.generalconcepts.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200201081559.g08FxMI39702@gc0.generalconcepts.com>; from jsellens@generalconcepts.com on Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 10:59:22AM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=2 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > From my references list: > * Corporate Time - now the company name is Steltor > http://www.steltor.com/ > http://www.cst.ca/prod/index.html > * Netscape http://help.netscape.com/products/server/calendar/ which > is apparently Corporate Time in disguise. .... The calendar that was netscape's calendar has become (and is being developed) by Steltor. Think of it as a continuation, not a copy. The ideal would be something that required little change for the users. That might suggest Outlook. Given the LONG and REGULAR list of exploits aimed at the apparently amaturish security model used by Outlook (Outbreak, lookOut, etc), perhaps that's a wrong approach. On the other hand, Evolution (for GNOME) has a nice feature match for Outlook and doesn't seem to run just about any executable that is sent to it. So nailing down an actual list of requirements comes to mind. What do the users actually use? Paying the (gartner estimate of) $30/user/month for Groupware (Notes, Exchange, etc) MAY be worthwhile, but I rarely see places that use these tools for much more than mail and scheduling. 1) mail - okay, IMAP and SMTP cover this nicely. 2) scheduling - in "Internet mode" apparently Outlook does what Evolution does as uses a Free/Busy server. 3) calendaring - a bit more extensive that scheduling. 4) discussions lists (er, internal newgroups?) 5) shared document management Now, a first question: do users need a single tool to do these? I have a calendar that I use just fine. It's not related to my mail client. My life works just fine. It's been sad to see the continuing demise of Netscape's products. I had once done a demo of Mail and Calendaring and Newgroups and LDAP for my company; showing them all on FREE tools and doing it on a Mac, a Windows and a Unix desktop. It worked and it was inexpensive per user. It needed work, but Netscape had promise. Now Sun/iPlanet is dropping Linux support for LDAP (perhaps it doesn't sell enough sparc hardware). Groupware is being recognized as a HUGE cost hole and there is a lot of activity in the Unix world to meet the parts that are actually used. I know the products mentioned, I also know that there's a bunch of stuff coming out in the next couple quarters that do it better and better. It would be nice to have something so that Outlook users can just use their clients without change and have it backed by Unix services that actually scale. It won't stop viruses - those are generally caused by Outlook at the desktop it runs on, but it will stop the need to have a Windows box for every 800 users (plus several infrastructure support machines just to run a Windows Network). I'd MUCH rather see a 4-6 way Linux box or Sun running IMAP, and Some calendaring with a webmail front end available for roving people. Including LDAP, DNS and firewall, a rack full of machines should be able to serve most sites with 25000 users with redundancy. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 8 11:24:50 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g08JD2H16884 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:13:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from wally.eecs.harvard.edu (wally.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.30]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g08JD1o16880 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:13:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (trey@localhost) by wally.eecs.harvard.edu (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id g08JChP13945; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:12:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:12:43 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris To: sage-members@usenix.org cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assessment for enterprise messaging? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020107154150.04f05270@pop.netaddress.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=25 env_From=19 From=19 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated Mon, 7 Jan 2002, Dustin Puryear writes: > Why doesn't this service exist in the UNIX space? There are web > applications to do this, but I will be the first to say it's nice to have > all of your contacts and calendars integrated into one piece of software. > We have IMAP which gives us server-side storage, but where is the shared > calendar component? Has there been any work on this? It seems that with > this one component there would be a real competitor to Exchange/Outlook in > terms of information management for the desktop. My feeling on this is that the loss of Netscape as a major player really hurt here. Netscape was reasonably committed to building open-standards-based products, and they were at the forefront of the IETF calendaring projects. But to this day, only one RFC (regarding the scheduling object format) has appeared, and it's now three years old. (This was the part that Lotus and Microsoft agreed to cooperate on, and Netscape was happy to get out of the way, since it would give them an obvious way to migrate people from those other two PIMs to Netscape's.) I receded from the IETF groupware arena at about the same time, so I can't say for sure, but it seems to me to be moribund. It's sad, really; if the IETF calendaring and other groupware had the results that IMAP4rev1 did, I think we'd be in very good shape. Maybe I'm just tooting my own horn, since I was on the IMAP4 WG, but I think IMAP4rev1 was excellent work. -- Trey Harris Secretary and Executive SAGE -- The System Administrators Guild (www.sage.org) Opinions above are not necessarily those of SAGE. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 8 12:36:51 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g08KW2C18310 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 12:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from wayne.ucns.uga.edu (wayne.ucns.uga.edu [128.192.6.54]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g08KW1o18306 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 12:32:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (steve@localhost) by wayne.ucns.uga.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g08KVij07947; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 15:31:44 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: wayne.ucns.uga.edu: steve owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 15:31:44 -0500 (EST) From: "Steve G. Hilliard" X-X-Sender: To: sage-members@usenix.org cc: Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assessment for enterprise messaging? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=2 From=2 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Another vote for Corporate Time--we run v5.0 w/ Corporate Connect, which is not a separate product, just a version of CT that pulls acct info from our LDAP server. We've got over 2k users and it runs w/ little intervention. Most users like the CT clients better than the web iface. I don't even want to get into email--we run a big DCE cluster w/ 40k users and deliver mail into DFS--hairy. On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Todd Olson wrote: > Hi > > I'm not sure this is relevant, but ... > > At Cornell University we are doing our shared calendaring with Corporate Time > http://www.steltor.com/ > Server system requirements are at > http://www.steltor.com/products/index.cfm?fuseaction=product&GrID=cts > The FAQs at the website suggest there is even a way for outlook to be a > client of this service. > > We have implemented it on solaris boxes, clients on windows, macs, unix, > and via web. It seems to scale, in a distributed manner pretty well. > We currently have close to 5000 people on one node, with other major > segments of the university running on other nodes that inter-communicate. > After a year of studing available products, and now 1.5 years of operation > it seems as though this product does the job. As A user I have not > complaints. I'm not on the person operating it so I don't know what > the war stories were/are, but from what I have heard it has not been too bad. > > We do our e-mail via sendmail (on solaris) (35,000 mailboxes ???) > with Eudora as the prefered client. > > We've just move the campus directory from an QI/PH implementation > to an LDAP implementation (on Solaris). This can be queried from > with in Eudora, and directly on a web page. We are looking at accessing > it from Corporate Time as well. > > It seems to meet our needs for shared calendaring, address books, > and e-mail. > > I have no idea how this compares to an Exchange environment. > > The flexibility of have the various parts separate but interoperate > is very nice. We can upgrade one part with disturbing the other parts. > > Regards, > Todd Olson > Cornell University > > > > >At 02:37 PM 1/4/2002 -0500, Matthew Barr wrote: > >>At the LISA conference, I heard mention of a way that allowed a Unix system > >>to emulate the major features of an Exchange server, such as calendaring, as > >>well as the obvious email component. Does anyone have any more detailed > >>information about this? > > > >I think the major resistance most people have to moving away from Exchange is the shared folders and calendar feature. > -- ------------------------------------------------------ Steve G. Hilliard "........to administer, divine" Production Systems Administration Support Enterprise Information Technology Services University of Georgia From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 8 14:48:20 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g08Mgpe20701 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:42:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail3.infineon.com ([12.36.118.67]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g08Mgoo20697 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:42:50 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: pwo@sjc.infineon.com (at relayer mail3.infineon.com) Received: from mail1.NA.Infineon.COM ([172.19.156.161]) by mail3.infineon.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g08MgPu22199 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbox.SJC.Infineon.COM (mbox [172.19.156.129]) by mail1.NA.Infineon.COM (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g08MgPW01278 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:42:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from w042.SJC.Infineon.COM (w042 [172.19.128.106]) by mbox.SJC.Infineon.COM (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g08MgPQ21876 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:42:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pwo@localhost) by w042.SJC.Infineon.COM (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g08MgOS17420 for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:42:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:42:24 -0800 From: "Peter W. Osel" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: Looking for the 1995 LISA CD-ROM Message-ID: <20020108144224.C17387@w042.SJC.Infineon.COM> References: <20020107103950.E11828@w042.SJC.Infineon.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020107103950.E11828@w042.SJC.Infineon.COM>; from pwo@Infineon.COM on Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 10:39:50AM -0800 Organization: Infineon Technologies, San Jose, CA, USA X-Phone: +1 408 501 6321 X-Time-Zone: USA PST, 9 hours _behind_ Central European Time X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=3 env_From=4 From=6 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I was looking for a copy of the 1995 LISA CD-ROM.... Thanks to all who replied, I found someone with a copy just a few blocks down the road here in San Jose! Cheers --pwo -- Peter W. Osel Sr. Network & Systems Manager Infineon Technologies Email: pwo@Infineon.COM North America Corp. Phone: +1 (408) 501 6321 1730 North First Street Fax: +1 (408) 501 2410 San Jose, CA 95112, USA WWW: http://pwo.de/ pgp key fingerprint = 79 2D DD 49 C0 AA D8 CF 2C F9 A5 6A BA 37 0E 28 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 8 17:30:47 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g091QA222984 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 17:26:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from wally.eecs.harvard.edu (wally.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.30]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g091Q8o22980 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 17:26:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (trey@localhost) by wally.eecs.harvard.edu (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id g091Prg10584 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 20:25:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 20:25:53 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Memo to Members Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=28 env_From=22 From=22 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Effective today, Strata Chalup tendered her resignation from the SAGE Executive Committee, citing time committments that she felt would keep her from fulfilling her responsibilities. The Executive Committee accepted her resignation with thanks for her outstanding service to SAGE. The Executive Committee will fill the vacancy created by her resignation, along with those seats vacated previously by Peg Schafer and Barb Dijker, via the same process, drawing from the same nominee pool. The selection will take place this Friday, January 11. -- Trey Harris Secretary and Executive SAGE -- The System Administrators Guild (www.sage.org) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 11 08:27:12 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0BGO2Z11711 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 08:24:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpsrv0.isis.unc.edu (smtpsrv0.isis.unc.edu [152.2.1.139]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0BGO0o11707 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 08:24:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from radonc.unc.edu (pc-jefferson.radonc.unc.edu [152.19.34.180]) by smtpsrv0.isis.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA09004; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:23:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C3F1191.8FD8521B@radonc.unc.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:23:45 -0500 From: Liyun Yu Organization: Dept of Radiation Oncology, UNC-CH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members CC: Lisa Lorenzin Subject: [SAGE] [Fwd: No NC*SA meeting on Monday 1/14/02] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=38 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -------- Original Message -------- Subject: No NC*SA meeting on Monday 1/14/02 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 10:44:02 -0500 (EST) From: Lisa Lorenzin To: There will be no NC*SA meeting on Monday, January 14th. We plan to resume our regular meeting schedule in February. Regards, Lisa Lorenzin NC*SA Program Coordinator From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 11 12:59:37 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0BKsEU14644 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 12:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from clyde.its.caltech.edu (clyde.its.caltech.edu [131.215.48.174]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0BKsDo14638 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 12:54:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (sigje@localhost) by clyde.its.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA16053 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 12:53:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: clyde.its.caltech.edu: sigje owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 12:53:58 -0800 (PST) From: Jennifer Davis X-X-Sender: sigje@clyde To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assessment for enterprise messaging? In-Reply-To: <20020108102542.A27239@snew.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > > * Corporate Time - now the company name is Steltor > > http://www.steltor.com/ > > http://www.cst.ca/prod/index.html > > * Netscape http://help.netscape.com/products/server/calendar/ which > > is apparently Corporate Time in disguise. > .... > > The calendar that was netscape's calendar has become (and is being > developed) by Steltor. Think of it as a continuation, not a copy. Actually you have this backwards. Netscape licensed CS&T's calendar software CorporateTime for a long time, and then went off on their own tangent in the last couple years. Netscape's calendar iplanet is no longer anything to do with Steltor. The calendar that Netscape used to sell is a very old version of the CorporateTime product. I'm the project manager for our deployment of the calendar here at Caltech. Anyone interested in discussing CorporateTime just give me a holler :) Jennifer Davis (I knew I should have run a BOF on calendaring systems at LISA this year :)) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Jan 12 02:03:54 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0C9urn19304 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 01:56:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [209.245.148.161]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0C9upo19300 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 01:56:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from virtual.net (adsl-63-193-240-161.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.240.161]) by m1.imap-partners.net (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ACM18628 (AUTH strata@imap-partners.net) for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 01:56:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3C400A98.9B72457E@virtual.net> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 02:06:16 -0800 From: Strata Rose Chalup Reply-To: strata@virtual.net Organization: VirtualNet Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assessment for enterprisemessaging? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk 110% correct, and then some. In specific, Dec 31 1999 was the last day that Netscape or iPlanet customers licensed for the calendar software could perform new installs, including upgrades, of any Netscape Calendar 3.x or 4.x version. Those were all CS&T licensed versions. The 5.x version is an entirely new codebased developed in-house, and began shipping (in alpha, I believe) in August of 2000. Imagine the excitement of managing a project where a large client has evaluated the CS&T-licensed version of "Netscape Calendar" and finds its deployment schedule occurring AFTER Dec 31 1999 but BEFORE the Netscape-authored version was shipping. Now imagine that the initial release of the 5.x product is missing some features critical to the large client's choice in the evaluation. Whee! It will have to stay imagination, of course, since anyone involved would have been NDA'd out the wazoo. But I'd imagine it was a pretty rough ride for a number of folks. I hear the current Netscape version has matured fairly tolerably. "Turned you into a newt?!" "I got bettah." cheers, SRC Jennifer Davis wrote: > Actually you have this backwards. Netscape licensed CS&T's calendar > software CorporateTime for a long time, and then went off on their own > tangent in the last couple years. Netscape's calendar iplanet is no > longer anything to do with Steltor. The calendar that Netscape used to > sell is a very old version of the CorporateTime product. -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 16 12:35:58 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0GKQ0T25329 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:26:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from lopan.isc-net.upenn.edu (lopan.isc-net.upenn.edu [165.123.210.223]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0GKPwI25325 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:25:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by lopan.isc-net.upenn.edu (Postfix, from userid 4056) id 031C866C; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:25:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:25:57 -0500 From: John P Speno To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Advice wanted on MRTG-like things Message-ID: <20020116202557.GA133530@isc.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Please send all response directly to me. I will post a SUMMARY of my findings back to this list. I'm looking for a tool to graph SNMP collectible data. I'm aware of the names of many such open source tools and several commercial applications, e.g. mrtg, cricket, and concord network health. However, what I'm not certain of is if they can "easily" handle SNMP tables. For example, I wanted to collect data from several Juniper routers's firewall table (.1.3.6.1.4.1.2636.3.5.1). That table has five columns: Filter, Counter, Type, Packets and Bytes. The number of rows is the number of filters. In my case, that's about 1000 rows. So, I'd like to tell my tool the OID of the table and what columns I'd like to poll and have it produce a graph or (1000) graphs of the results over time. In this case, graphing the number of bytes per counter. Now, I guess I could fake it by configuring all 1000 things that I want polled and graph in some of these tools, but I'd rather not have to do that each time I add new rows (there could easily be 2000 rows tomorrow.) Until I find something else that I like, I'm using python and pysnmp to collect the data myself and dump it into tab delimited files which are fed to excel or grace to generate graphs as needed. I'll consider open source or commercial solutions as we are in the process of re-evaluating all of our NMS tools at the moment. Thanks. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 16 14:05:41 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0GLx1M27361 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from wally.eecs.harvard.edu (wally.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.30]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0GLwtI27356 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:58:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (trey@localhost) by wally.eecs.harvard.edu (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id g0GLwtO09829 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:58:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:58:55 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] New appointees to the SAGE Executive Committee Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=27 env_From=26 From=28 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The SAGE Executive Committee has appointed three new Executives to fill the vacancies on the Committee. They are: Bryan C. Andregg Gabriel Krabbe Josh Simon We wish to extend our congratulations to them and also our thanks to all the nominees for participating in this process. The next meeting of the SAGE Executive Committee will be February 23-24 in Monterey, CA. The SAGE Executive Committee David Parter, President Geoff Halprin, Vice President Trey Harris, Secretary Tim Gassaway, Executive Bryan C. Andregg, Executive Gabriel Krabbe, Executive Josh Simon, Executive -- Trey Harris Secretary and Executive SAGE -- The System Administrators Guild (www.sage.org) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 16 18:18:45 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0H2BdN12115 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 18:11:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj1-3-4-9.securesites.net (sj1-3-4-9.securesites.net [192.220.127.202]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0H2BbI12111 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 18:11:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 51932 invoked by uid 18647); 17 Jan 2002 02:11:36 -0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 18:11:36 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Pointers for developing needs assessment for enterprise messaging? Message-ID: <20020116181136.A51463@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <200201081559.g08FxMI39702@gc0.generalconcepts.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <200201081559.g08FxMI39702@gc0.generalconcepts.com>; from jsellens@generalconcepts.com on Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 10:59:22AM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 10:59:22AM -0500, John Sellens wrote: > ... > From my references list: >... > * TWIG groupware - in PHP, and free http://screwdriver.net/twig/ Also written in php, is http://www.phpgroupware.org which IMO looks nicer than twig. It actually has multiple different looks you can choose from. You might almost call them "skins". Be sure to check out all three demo accounts to see the different looks. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 17 05:45:34 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0HDeqK14816 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 05:40:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from wisteria.propagation.net (wisteria.propagation.net [63.249.138.1]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0HDeoI14812 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 05:40:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalwani.com (c1258862-a.roalok1.mi.home.com [24.13.50.80]) by wisteria.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA29055 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 07:38:23 -0600 Message-ID: <3C46D256.88BF5F2F@kalwani.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 08:32:06 -0500 From: Sharan Kalwani X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Looking for a detailed comparision analysis/UNIX v Windows2000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I do not recall if this has been discussed in this forum before (at least not to my recent memory). Where can I find a detailed comparision which goes intro great length on the merits of various *NIX flavors v NT (or Windows 2000). I would like to look at all aspects: Support, integration issues, CBA, etc. All pointers appreciated! Regards, --Sharan Kalwani From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 17 11:29:14 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0HJPKY18044 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:25:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0HJPJ418039 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from uucp0.ash.ops.us.uu.net (uucp0.ash.ops.us.uu.net [198.5.241.21]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0HJ2AI17523 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:02:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from uucp0.ash.ops.us.uu.net by uucp0.ash.ops.us.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: uucp0.ash.ops.us.uu.net [198.5.241.21]) id QQlyfs28150; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:02:08 GMT Received: from m10.UUCP by uucp0.ash.ops.us.uu.net with UUCP/RMAIL ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:02:08 +0000 Received: from lorentzian.com by m10.gaussian.com; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:50:30 -0500 Message-ID: <3C471CB3.7090108@lorentzian.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:49:23 -0500 From: AEleen Frisch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011128 Netscape6/6.2.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org CC: sharan@kalwani.com Subject: [SAGE] Re: Looking for a detailed comparison, Linux vs. NT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=3 env_From=2 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Here is what I have in easy reach. I haven't checked the URLs to see if they're still working or not. Note that articles dealing with NT 4 are still ~100% applicable. Hope this helps. * These links are starting points for the lively debate between people who are smart and actually know a lot (e.g., Mark Russinovich for Windows, some of the kernel developers for Linux). There is some real data to be gleaned from this, but there's a lot of religious sniping and banter to wade through to find it. The exchanges are also unfortunately marred by the fact that the two sides were using significantly different vocabularies and at times used the same terms to mean different things. Neither side seemed to really understand the internals of both OS's, and they also clearly had very different experiences in terms of computing environments and server deployment expectations. Nevertheless, they should prove useful to any serious comparison: www.win2000mag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=4500 www.win2000mag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=4502 www.win2000mag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=5048 www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=1999-04-30-015-05-PS More Mundane offerings follow: References promoting Windows NT over Linux: * Microsoft, "5 Myths About Linux"; http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/nts/news/msnw/LinuxMyths.asp Response: lwn.net/1999/features/MSResponse.phtml * Clif Graves, "Five Linux Myths"; swtinker.tripod.com/Linux/Linux_myths.htm References promoting Linux over Windows NT: * Cameron Laird, "Linux versus NT: Are you getting the most from your OS?"; www.sunworld.com/sunworldonline/swol-08-1998/swol-08-linuxvnt.html * John Kirch, "Microsoft Windows NT Server vs UNIX"; www.unix-vs-nt.org/kirch * Aron Hsiao, "Six Lies About Linux"; linux.about.com/compute/os/linux/library/weekly/aa120798.htm From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 17 11:52:33 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0HJnko18321 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:49:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from blues.hodgsonhouse.com (IDENT:postfix@blues.hodgsonhouse.com [24.72.10.211]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0HJnjI18317 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:49:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by blues.hodgsonhouse.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 071127F407; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:48:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:48:21 -0600 From: Tillman Hodgson To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for a detailed comparision analysis/UNIX v Windows2000 Message-ID: <20020117134821.A25370@hodgsonhouse.com> References: <3C46D256.88BF5F2F@kalwani.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3C46D256.88BF5F2F@kalwani.com>; from sharan@kalwani.com on Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:32:06AM -0500 X-Editor: Vim Rocks! http://www.vim.org X-Mailer: Mutt Rocks! http://www.mutt.org X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:32:06AM -0500, Sharan Kalwani wrote: > I do not recall if this has been discussed in this forum before (at least > not to my recent memory). Where can I find a detailed comparision which goes intro great length > on the merits of various *NIX flavors v NT (or Windows 2000). I would like to look > at all aspects: Support, integration issues, CBA, etc. There's a few: * _The Unix Guide To Defenestration_ (Murph P. Murphy), http://www.winface.com * _Unix vs. NT_ (Kirsch), was at http://www.unix-vs-nt.org/ but appears no longer to be active ... does anyone have a current URL for it? A better question might be: What are your specific needs, and how do the various available solutions meet them? -T -- Don't try to have the last word. You might get it. Robert Heinlein From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 17 15:18:38 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0HN5WL20803 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfw-gate4.raytheon.com (dfw-gate4.raytheon.com [199.46.199.233]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0HN5UI20796 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:05:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ds02w01.directory.ray.com (ds02w01.directory.ray.com [147.25.154.117]) by dfw-gate4.raytheon.com (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id g0HN5TT04058 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 17:05:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ds02w01.directory.ray.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18914 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 17:05:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from seasnake (seasnake [147.17.205.60]) by seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA03130 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:05:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200201172305.PAA03130@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:05:27 -0800 (PST) From: Mario Obejas Reply-To: Mario Obejas Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for a detailed comparision analysis/UNIX v Windows2000 To: sage-members@usenix.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: 817KeJDeZzpiPjKfeq54aQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4.2 SunOS 5.8 sun4u sparc X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=3 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The kirsch paper is IMHO, one of the best ones around. I'm kicking myself for not having saved it. I found it at: http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~kosart/unix-nt.html http://www.osdata.com/ has not been mentioned by anyone. It looks promising. >Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:48:21 -0600 >From: Tillman Hodgson >To: sage-members@usenix.org >Subject: Re: [SAGE] Looking for a detailed comparision analysis/UNIX v Windows2000 >On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:32:06AM -0500, Sharan Kalwani wrote: >> I do not recall if this has been discussed in this forum before (at least >> not to my recent memory). Where can I find a detailed comparision which goes intro great length >> on the merits of various *NIX flavors v NT (or Windows 2000). I would like to look >> at all aspects: Support, integration issues, CBA, etc. > >There's a few: > >* _The Unix Guide To Defenestration_ (Murph P. Murphy), http://www.winface.com > >* _Unix vs. NT_ (Kirsch), was at http://www.unix-vs-nt.org/ but appears no >longer to be active ... does anyone have a current URL for it? > >A better question might be: What are your specific needs, and how do the >various available solutions meet them? > >-T Mario Obejas Engineering Automation & Computing Raytheon Electronic Systems 310-334-7201 (Voice) 310-366-4867 (Pager) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 18 18:14:39 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0J21FB25858 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 18:01:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from malibu.cc.uga.edu (malibu.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.103]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0J21DI25854 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 18:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from archa8.cc.uga.edu (arch8.cc.uga.edu) by malibu.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.007EB804@malibu.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 21:01:12 -0500 Received: from archa15.cc.uga.edu (arch15.cc.uga.edu [128.192.95.115]) by archa8.cc.uga.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA54270 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 21:00:48 -0500 Received: from localhost (rilke@localhost) by archa15.cc.uga.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA78414 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 21:00:47 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: archa15.cc.uga.edu: rilke owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 21:00:47 -0500 (EST) From: rilke X-Sender: rilke@archa15.cc.uga.edu To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] I need your help... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=4 env_From=5 From=5 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk If any of you know anything that might be helpful to someone seeking work in Prague, please pass it on to me. I am seeking SysAdmin (or comparable) work. Anyone experienced in working in the Czech Republic? Any tips for me? --Trey From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Jan 19 17:45:35 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0K1YkR00975 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 17:34:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from eamail1-out.unisys.com (eamail1-out.unisys.com [192.61.61.99]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0K1YjI00971 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 17:34:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from us-ea-gtwy-6.ea.unisys.com (us-ea-gtwy-6.ea.unisys.com [192.61.146.102]) by eamail1-out.unisys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA09113 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 01:34:31 GMT Received: by us-ea-gtwy-6.ea.unisys.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 19:34:43 -0600 Message-ID: <97F39596DEEECF11BC020000C09361E50304094F@mv_exchange_2.mv.unisys.com> From: "Company, Paul J." To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] 3U - 24 ServerBlades or 1U - 6 ServerBlades Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 19:34:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone have any experience with the following systems? Does anyone know of any company doing similar work with Intel or AMD processors (running Windows NT/2000/XP)? Thanks. http://www.rlxtechnologies.com/product/ Q1: How much HDD space? A1: One, probably two HDDs. Comes with one 10GB HDD. Q2: How much memory space? A2: Probably up to 4GB of RAM. Whitepaper shows 512MB of RAM in their tests. Q3: What type and Number of CPU? A3: 633MHz Transmeta; doesn't mention multiple CPU capabilities. Doesn't mention anything about supporting Intel or AMD CPUs. Q4: What OS does run? Q4: Looks like only Linux? Doesn't mention future support for Windows NT/2000/XP. Please don't ask why I even want support for NT/2000/XP. You can probably already guess - my job only has Windows programers :-( Q5: What compilers and development environment does it support? A5: They don't mention any. My guess is GNU. Q6: Are these just independent machines or do they support MP Architectures (SMP/NUMA/etc.)? Q7: My guess is independent machines, no tightly coupled MP. Although you can use clustering software. Q7: How much does it cost? A7: Doesn't say....ANYWHERE!!!!!! My guess is ALOT! The only totally accurate way to measure the performance of a system is to test the software applications you use on the system. That means asking for a loaner and benchmarking. If any of you look into this, let me know. I'd love to see the details. It may be worth it for those with "special" needs. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Jan 19 21:43:29 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0K5Vjb01733 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:31:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from lone.duckland.org (host164.duckland.org [64.245.56.164] (may be forged)) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0K5ViI01729 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:31:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ringnecked.duckland.org (cs6668176-112.austin.rr.com [66.68.176.112]) by lone.duckland.org (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id g0K5Up200633; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 23:30:51 -0600 Subject: Re: [SAGE] 3U - 24 ServerBlades or 1U - 6 ServerBlades From: "Don 'Duck' Harper" To: "Company, Paul J." Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <97F39596DEEECF11BC020000C09361E50304094F@mv_exchange_2.mv.unisys.com> References: <97F39596DEEECF11BC020000C09361E50304094F@mv_exchange_2.mv.unisys.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0.1 Date: 19 Jan 2002 23:33:03 -0600 Message-Id: <1011504784.11295.6.camel@ringnecked> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2002-01-19 at 19:34, Company, Paul J. wrote: > > Does anyone have any experience with the following systems? > Does anyone know of any company doing similar work with > Intel or AMD processors (running Windows NT/2000/XP)? > > Thanks. > > http://www.rlxtechnologies.com/product/ > > Q1: How much HDD space? > A1: One, probably two HDDs. Comes with one 10GB HDD. > > Q2: How much memory space? > A2: Probably up to 4GB of RAM. Whitepaper shows 512MB of RAM in their tests. > > Q3: What type and Number of CPU? > A3: 633MHz Transmeta; doesn't mention multiple CPU capabilities. > Doesn't mention anything about supporting Intel or AMD CPUs. > > Q4: What OS does run? > Q4: Looks like only Linux? > Doesn't mention future support for Windows NT/2000/XP. > Please don't ask why I even want support for NT/2000/XP. > You can probably already guess - my job only has Windows programers :-( Support for W2K Server (top of the page you give has ``Operating Systems'' > > > Q5: What compilers and development environment does it support? > A5: They don't mention any. My guess is GNU. > > Q6: Are these just independent machines or > do they support MP Architectures (SMP/NUMA/etc.)? > Q7: My guess is independent machines, no tightly coupled MP. > Although you can use clustering software. > > Q7: How much does it cost? > A7: Doesn't say....ANYWHERE!!!!!! My guess is ALOT! Click purchase, online store, the 1U, 999 in base config... > The only totally accurate way to measure the performance of a system > is to test the software applications you use on the system. That means > asking for a loaner and benchmarking. > > If any of you look into this, let me know. > I'd love to see the details. > It may be worth it for those with "special" needs. -- Don Harper, RHCE, MCSE DoD #0520 email: duck@duckland.org Just a systems kinda guy... http://www.duckland.org Panic now -- avoid the rush! From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Jan 20 04:55:58 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0KCni903122 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 04:49:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from baja.smairlines.net (baja.smairlines.net [213.239.5.207]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0KCngI03118 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 04:49:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from smairlines.com (p55.as1.castlerea1.eircom.net [159.134.208.183]) (authenticated) by baja.smairlines.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0KCk8B20111 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:46:08 GMT Message-ID: <3C4ABC94.E153BF53@smairlines.com> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:48:20 +0000 From: Ewan McDonell Reply-To: ewan@smairlines.com Organization: Santa Monica Airlines, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] 3U - 24 ServerBlades or 1U - 6 ServerBlades References: <97F39596DEEECF11BC020000C09361E50304094F@mv_exchange_2.mv.unisys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=3 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk "Company, Paul J." wrote: > > Does anyone have any experience with the following systems? > Does anyone know of any company doing similar work with > Intel or AMD processors (running Windows NT/2000/XP)? > > Thanks. > > http://www.rlxtechnologies.com/product/ Yes - I've got an RLX System 324 running in my lab here. You evidently didn't spend much time looking through RLX's website before posting this message, because most of the answers are right there on their site for the reading. > > Q1: How much HDD space? > A1: One, probably two HDDs. Comes with one 10GB HDD. RLX blades come with one or two drive configurations, with the choice of either 10 or 30Gb capacity. > > Q2: How much memory space? > A2: Probably up to 4GB of RAM. Whitepaper shows 512MB of RAM in their tests. It depends on the system you go with. The 3U System 324 will take blades with up to 512Mb of RAM, whereas the new slimline 1U system will take blades with upto 1Gb of memory. > > Q3: What type and Number of CPU? > A3: 633MHz Transmeta; doesn't mention multiple CPU capabilities. > Doesn't mention anything about supporting Intel or AMD CPUs. Right. No Intel or AMD chips. There are two Transmeta chips offered on their blades at the moment - 633Mhz or 667Mhz. > > Q4: What OS does run? > Q4: Looks like only Linux? > Doesn't mention future support for Windows NT/2000/XP. > Please don't ask why I even want support for NT/2000/XP. > You can probably already guess - my job only has Windows programers :-( You can have Redhat 7.1, 7.2 or Win 2K server. My systems came with the earlier Debian offering. > > Q5: What compilers and development environment does it support? > A5: They don't mention any. My guess is GNU. Yup. Standard fare. > > Q6: Are these just independent machines or > do they support MP Architectures (SMP/NUMA/etc.)? > Q7: My guess is independent machines, no tightly coupled MP. > Although you can use clustering software. Exactly so - they are individual separate systems, which can be harnessed into clusters if that's your requirement. Each blade in the system is manageable from a 'master blade' in either of the first or second slots. These master blades allow for the rebooting, and re-imageing of all of the other blades in the system. RLX's new 'Control tower' offering enables control of multiple chassis from a single control blade. > > Q7: How much does it cost? > A7: Doesn't say....ANYWHERE!!!!!! My guess is ALOT! It does, you can price your specification right down to the last cent. They offer bundles, which are a good way to get going with a system. Otherwise you're looking at $999 for a basic spec blade, $2,499 for the 3U chassis, or $999 for the 1U chassis. > > The only totally accurate way to measure the performance of a system > is to test the software applications you use on the system. That means > asking for a loaner and benchmarking. Why a loaner? Just go and buy one. It's not an expensive system. I've got no connection with them, but I'm a well satisfied customer, and I'm happy with the product and service from RLX. The product is well designed, well manufactured, and the company is easy to deal with. I spent a lot of time asking questions and getting details before I purchased the system, but the people could not have been more helpful or friendly. I would recommend both the system and the company to anybody. Regards, Ewan McDonell ewan@smairlines.com Santa Monica Airlines, Inc. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 21 00:33:45 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0L8GKm07315 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 00:16:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtprelay2.dc3.adelphia.net (smtprelay2.dc3.adelphia.net [24.50.78.5]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0L8GJI07311 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 00:16:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from bob.pobox.com ([24.54.200.237]) by smtprelay2.dc3.adelphia.net (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GQA1O500.34N for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 02:19:17 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020120230039.00b16da0@pop3.norton.antivirus> X-Sender: bhami/mail.earthlink.net@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 23:19:17 -0800 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Bruce Hamilton Subject: [SAGE] New URL for Unix Rosetta Stone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk My Unix Rosetta Stone page has been so popular (~1 GB/month of traffic) that I've been forced to relocate it from Earthlink to FeaturePrice. The new URL is http://bhami.com/rosetta.html . The old URL will redirect for at least a few weeks. I believe that as of yesterday I have incorporated all suggestions received to date. The PDF version is not working properly -- it half-paints, goes into some sort of loop, and eventually you may have to kill your browser window (similar behavior in either IE 6 or Netscape 6.2). I'll see if I can wheedle some tech support out of Adobe... But even when it does work, there are so many columns that we're down to something like four-point type, even on landscape, legal size paper. So you're best off running IE and using the custom drawing feature to select a subset of columns. (It works fine in IE for Solaris, HP-UX, or Windows, although I haven't seen any sign of recent security patches for those Unix (IE 5.0) versions.) Enjoy, --Bruce (Bruce Hamilton, Redondo Beach, CA) bhami@pobox.com http://bhami.com/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 23 13:33:02 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0NLMtF08430 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:22:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from lopan.isc-net.upenn.edu (lopan.isc-net.upenn.edu [165.123.210.223]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0NLMpI08426 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:22:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by lopan.isc-net.upenn.edu (Postfix, from userid 4056) id D6372377; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 16:22:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 16:22:50 -0500 From: John P Speno To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] SUMMARY: Advice wanted on MRTG-like things Message-ID: <20020123212250.GG189914@isc.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=2 From=3 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I'd like to thank the following people for sending their advice to my query: Adam Levin James R Grinter Alexios Zavras Kurt Robinson No one had the solution to easily gathering SNMP data from dynamic sources (such as from large tables), but several people suggested sticking with my custom gathering tools and feeding the data into rrdtool. I'll give that a try. Thank you. Here's my original question: Please send all response directly to me. I will post a SUMMARY of my findings back to this list. I'm looking for a tool to graph SNMP collectible data. I'm aware of the names of many such open source tools and several commercial applications, e.g. mrtg, cricket, and concord network health. However, what I'm not certain of is if they can "easily" handle SNMP tables. For example, I wanted to collect data from several Juniper routers's firewall table (.1.3.6.1.4.1.2636.3.5.1). That table has five columns: Filter, Counter, Type, Packets and Bytes. The number of rows is the number of filters. In my case, that's about 1000 rows. So, I'd like to tell my tool the OID of the table and what columns I'd like to poll and have it produce a graph or (1000) graphs of the results over time. In this case, graphing the number of bytes per counter. Now, I guess I could fake it by configuring all 1000 things that I want polled and graph in some of these tools, but I'd rather not have to do that each time I add new rows (there could easily be 2000 rows tomorrow.) Until I find something else that I like, I'm using python and pysnmp to collect the data myself and dump it into tab delimited files which are fed to excel or grace to generate graphs as needed. I'll consider open source or commercial solutions as we are in the process of re-evaluating all of our NMS tools at the moment. Thanks. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 23 15:26:38 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0NNJf909775 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 15:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from gwyn.tux.org (ident-user@gwyn.tux.org [207.96.122.8]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0NNJZI09770 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 15:19:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jsdy@localhost) by gwyn.tux.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id SAA09227; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:19:21 -0500 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:19:21 -0500 From: Joseph S D Yao To: Bruce Hamilton Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] New URL for Unix Rosetta Stone Message-ID: <20020123181921.O3073@gwyn.tux.org> Mail-Followup-To: Bruce Hamilton , sage-members@usenix.org References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020120230039.00b16da0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020120230039.00b16da0@pop3.norton.antivirus>; from bhami@pobox.com on Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 11:19:17PM -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=86 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk As always, and from all corners of the globe [;-?], thanks! -- /*********************************************************************\ ** ** Joe Yao jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao ** \*********************************************************************/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 24 06:55:45 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0OErp915728 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 06:53:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from cuda.colorado.edu (cuda.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.180]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0OEroI15724 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 06:53:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by cuda.Colorado.EDU with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:53:45 -0700 Message-ID: <4BC96EDC8B81D3118E5400805F6544ACA91D06@cuda.Colorado.EDU> From: Linda Drake To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Web search engines - Google Search Appliance Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:53:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I'm wondering if anyone has any knowledge or especially experience with the Google Search Appliance. We're now using Ultraseek on our main campus web server but are considering what Google has to offer. As I understand it, the appliance is a package deal for two years, in which a linux-based cluster is located on our network and they (Google) will do all the admin work themselves from afar. I have some concerns about putting someone else's box on our production network but don't want to just say no to a product that may be really good. Because of their privacy policy they aren't able to give us any references so I'm hoping someone here can help out. Thanks in advance. Linda Drake Manager, Central and Unix Services Information Technology Services 455 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0455 Linda.Drake@Colorado.edu (303) 492-3864 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 25 08:32:22 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0PGNkj26569 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:23:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost1.vuse.vanderbilt.edu (root@mailhost1.vuse.vanderbilt.edu [129.59.103.30]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0PGNiI26565 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:23:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from jethro (jethro [129.59.70.47]) by mailhost1.vuse.vanderbilt.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/VUSE-2.1.2) with SMTP id KAA01500 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:23:38 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200201251623.KAA01500@mailhost1.vuse.vanderbilt.edu> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:23:47 -0600 (CST) From: "David R. Linn" Reply-To: "David R. Linn" Subject: [SAGE] sniffing switched nets To: sage-members@usenix.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: C7GJpxTJoxdMgSVXBk/p3w== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4.2 SunOS 5.8 sun4u sparc X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk A few meetings ago (perhaps the ATC in San Diego), I seem to recall that some attendees demonstrated that you can sniff switched nets by collecting and then posting a set of passwords that they had captured from the switched TTY room net. I believe that they wrote up their technique, maybe for a WIP, maybe for a later conference. The fellow teaching our new InfoSec class was asking me for ideas of things to cover and I mentioned this incident in the context of convincing people to use crypto for anything they want secured. He asked me for a pointer and a quick look at the USENIX site didn't provide me with one so I'm turning to the collective. If this is not all a sign of premature senility, could someone point me at that writeup. David -- David R. Linn, SEDCON System Manager | INET: drl@vuse.vanderbilt.edu Disclaimer: I speak only for myself | Phone: [+1] 615-343-6164 http://www.vuse.vanderbilt.edu/~drl * If you cannot strive for excellence, at least strive for adequacy. * From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 25 09:03:25 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0PGvVO26812 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:57:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0PGvUa26807 for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:57:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.colltech.com (ausproxy.colltech.com [65.115.223.19]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0P8ZaI24557 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:35:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.colltech.com (mail2.colltech.com [65.115.223.41]) by mx1.colltech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/not) with ESMTP id CAA06360; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 02:34:48 -0600 Received: from endlessknot.com (psasolar.colltech.com [65.115.223.14]) by mail2.colltech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/not) with ESMTP id CAA04864; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 02:34:47 -0600 Message-ID: <3C5118A6.20C58DB2@endlessknot.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:34:46 -0800 From: Vincent Cordrey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Apple Airport base station admin SW for Wintel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Found this while I was nosing around in the Apple database: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=120093 If you haven't seen one of these little things, a brief list of features follows: * NAT router (optional can also serve as a simple bridge) * DHCP server (optional) * PPP dialup capable * Ethernet LAN connectivity * NAT routes and DHCP's wired IP devices as well as wireless * supports static NAT addresses (wired as well as wireless) * allows port mapping * now has an "inside" and "outside" ethernet port * will bridge EtherTalk * Recursive DNS forwarder * 128 WEP (for what it's worth) * works with DSSS 802.11b cards from other vendors In short, it's not a perfect solution, but something to consider. Now, with administration SW available for Windows systems, you don't necessarily have to have a Mac to configure them.... -Vincent Cordrey From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 25 10:20:10 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0PIDOx27661 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ags.ga.erg.sri.com (solabel8.ga.erg.sri.com [192.26.245.44]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0PIDMI27657 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:13:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from solabel10.ga.erg.sri.com (solabel10.ga.erg.sri.com [192.26.245.46]) by ags.ga.erg.sri.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA12744; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:12:14 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200201251812.NAA12744@ags.ga.erg.sri.com> To: Vincent Cordrey cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Apple Airport base station admin SW for Wintel In-Reply-To: Message from Vincent Cordrey of "Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:34:46 PST." <3C5118A6.20C58DB2@endlessknot.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:12:14 -0500 From: Ted Nolan SRI Augusta GA X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In message <3C5118A6.20C58DB2@endlessknot.com>you write: >Found this while I was nosing around in the Apple database: > > http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=120093 > >If you haven't seen one of these little things, a brief list >of features follows: > > * NAT router (optional can also serve as a simple bridge) > * DHCP server (optional) > * PPP dialup capable > * Ethernet LAN connectivity > * NAT routes and DHCP's wired IP devices as well as > wireless > * supports static NAT addresses (wired as well as > wireless) > * allows port mapping > * now has an "inside" and "outside" ethernet port > * will bridge EtherTalk > * Recursive DNS forwarder > * 128 WEP (for what it's worth) > * works with DSSS 802.11b cards from other vendors > >In short, it's not a perfect solution, but something to >consider. Now, with administration SW available for Windows >systems, you don't necessarily have to have a Mac to >configure them.... > >-Vincent Cordrey > > > There is a Java administrator as well. I have used it with success from my FreeBSD system, and sparc Solaris, so neither Windows nor a Mac is required. http://gicl.mcs.drexel.edu/people/sevy//airport/#Configurator Ted Nolan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 25 11:18:47 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0PJCPq28561 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:12:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from bunrab.catwhisker.org (adsl-63-193-123-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.123.122]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0PJCFI28556 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from david@localhost) by bunrab.catwhisker.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0PJCEr23511; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:12:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:12:14 -0800 (PST) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <200201251912.g0PJCEr23511@bunrab.catwhisker.org> To: sage-members@usenix.org, vcordrey18588@endlessknot.com Subject: Re: [SAGE] Apple Airport base station admin SW for Wintel In-Reply-To: <3C5118A6.20C58DB2@endlessknot.com> X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:34:46 -0800 >From: Vincent Cordrey >In short, it's not a perfect solution, but something to >consider. Now, with administration SW available for Windows >systems, you don't necessarily have to have a Mac to >configure them.... At least for the older AirPorts (short WEP keys, as a result of using a Lucent "silver" PCMCIA card; single wired Ethernet port), there's also a Java-based configurator (in net/airport in the FreeBSD "ports"; see http://edge.mcs.drexel.edu/GICL/people/sevy/airport/ for the details), which is even more handy for those of us who wouldn't trust a Microsoft-based product for anything important. Cheers, david -- David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org I believe it would be irresponsible (and thus, unethical) for me to advise, recommend, or support the use of any product that is or depends on any Microsoft product for any purpose other than personal amusement. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 25 11:38:23 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0PJWIK29211 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:32:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [209.245.148.161]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0PJWHI29207 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:32:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from virtual.net (adsl-63-193-240-161.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.240.161]) by m1.imap-partners.net (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ACN10988 (AUTH strata@imap-partners.net) for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:32:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3C51B51B.DC164A22@virtual.net> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:42:19 -0800 From: Strata Rose Chalup Reply-To: strata@virtual.net Organization: VirtualNet Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] sniffing switched nets References: <200201251623.KAA01500@mailhost1.vuse.vanderbilt.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk David, I've been given to understand that the technique involves reconfiguring the switch to copy traffic to a monitor port. Given how easy it allegedly is to break into most switches, I think this is a valid line of attack. There's also supposed to be another technique, about which here is something from a quick Google search: [PS] www.infosys.tuwien.ac.at/Teaching/Courses/InetSec/slides/slides2.ps File Format: Adobe PostScript - View as Text ... Sniffing also possible at switched Ethernet, where the switch ... forbidden (in contrast to sniffing, spoofing) in the lab ... router knows which nets it is connected to ... Similar pages X.25 Hacking ... useful comments about x.25 nets Short Outdials/x.25 hacking ... TO SPRINTNET AND SIMILAR PACKET SWITCHED NETWORKS P/H/A - Written ... crew Sita Network NUI Sniffing!!! ... qwerty.nanko.ru/x25/o_index.htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages There was a lot of material coming up on a search for "sniffing switched nets", of which about 1 item on each page was of interest. cheers, Strata "David R. Linn" wrote: > > A few meetings ago (perhaps the ATC in San Diego), I seem to recall > that some attendees demonstrated that you can sniff switched nets by > collecting and then posting a set of passwords that they had captured > from the switched TTY room net. I believe that they wrote up their > technique, maybe for a WIP, maybe for a later conference. > > The fellow teaching our new InfoSec class was asking me for ideas of > things to cover and I mentioned this incident in the context of > convincing people to use crypto for anything they want secured. He > asked me for a pointer and a quick look at the USENIX site didn't > provide me with one so I'm turning to the collective. > > If this is not all a sign of premature senility, could someone point > me at that writeup. > > David > -- > David R. Linn, SEDCON System Manager | INET: drl@vuse.vanderbilt.edu > Disclaimer: I speak only for myself | Phone: [+1] 615-343-6164 > http://www.vuse.vanderbilt.edu/~drl > * If you cannot strive for excellence, at least strive for adequacy. * -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 25 11:47:30 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0PJflW29385 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:41:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org (root@mail.reptiles.org [198.96.117.157]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0PJfjI29381 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:41:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org([198.96.117.157]) (2337 bytes) by mail.reptiles.org via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) id for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:41:59 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.114 2001-Aug-6 #10 built 2002-Jan-14) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:41:59 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Vincent Cordrey cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Apple Airport base station admin SW for Wintel In-Reply-To: <3C5118A6.20C58DB2@endlessknot.com> Message-ID: <20020125143706.D4181-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=2 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 25 Jan 2002, Vincent Cordrey wrote: > * NAT router (optional can also serve as a simple bridge) > * DHCP server (optional) > * PPP dialup capable > * Ethernet LAN connectivity > * NAT routes and DHCP's wired IP devices as well as > wireless > * supports static NAT addresses (wired as well as > wireless) > * allows port mapping > * now has an "inside" and "outside" ethernet port > * will bridge EtherTalk > * Recursive DNS forwarder > * 128 WEP (for what it's worth) If you aren't buying a brand spanking new one, be aware that they were originally shipped with 64bit keys, only. The workaround was to crack the case, pull out the lucent/wavelan silver card, and replace it with a gold card. (for those that care, yes, their innards are lucent) > * works with DSSS 802.11b cards from other vendors > > In short, it's not a perfect solution, but something to > consider. Now, with administration SW available for Windows > systems, you don't necessarily have to have a Mac to > configure them.... Caveat Emptor. I had terrible problems with some of the windows admin software. Unfortunately it's been a while, and I don't recally which, but the basic problem was that config modifications weren't taking, and kept on locking up the Airport. I'm sure things are much better now, but if you have inexplicable problems configuring/updating your Airport, try a different piece of software. cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 25 13:15:20 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0PL8ap00890 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:08:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from usmail.micros.com (usmail.micros.com [63.75.30.7]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0PL8Zc00886 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:08:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by usmail.micros.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:09:43 -0500 Message-ID: From: ARichardson@MICROS.COM To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] sniffing switched nets Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:09:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I saw a wip on something similar (sniffing the wireless network at USENIX in San Diego a couple years ago). The information used to be at http://monkey.org/~dugsong but the website isn't up due to some censoring or something the last time I checked. You might be able to email him and get some pointers from him. Arthur Richardson -----Original Message----- From: David R. Linn To: sage-members@usenix.org Sent: 1/25/02 11:23 AM Subject: [SAGE] sniffing switched nets A few meetings ago (perhaps the ATC in San Diego), I seem to recall that some attendees demonstrated that you can sniff switched nets by collecting and then posting a set of passwords that they had captured from the switched TTY room net. I believe that they wrote up their technique, maybe for a WIP, maybe for a later conference. The fellow teaching our new InfoSec class was asking me for ideas of things to cover and I mentioned this incident in the context of convincing people to use crypto for anything they want secured. He asked me for a pointer and a quick look at the USENIX site didn't provide me with one so I'm turning to the collective. If this is not all a sign of premature senility, could someone point me at that writeup. David -- David R. Linn, SEDCON System Manager | INET: drl@vuse.vanderbilt.edu Disclaimer: I speak only for myself | Phone: [+1] 615-343-6164 http://www.vuse.vanderbilt.edu/~drl * If you cannot strive for excellence, at least strive for adequacy. * From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 25 13:38:09 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0PLVrn01562 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:31:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from femme.sapphite.org (root@bgp01560710bgs.gambrl01.md.comcast.net [68.50.32.183]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0PLVlh01557 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:31:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from femme.sapphite.org (lynch@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by femme.sapphite.org (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0PLVSKY001279; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:31:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by femme.sapphite.org (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) with ESMTP id g0PLVR9p001276; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:31:28 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: femme.sapphite.org: lynch owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:31:27 -0500 (EST) From: Trish Lynch X-X-Sender: To: David Wolfskill cc: , Subject: Re: [SAGE] Apple Airport base station admin SW for Wintel In-Reply-To: <200201251912.g0PJCEr23511@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: <20020125163000.Y421-100000@femme.sapphite.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=4 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 25 Jan 2002, David Wolfskill wrote: > >Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:34:46 -0800 > >From: Vincent Cordrey > > >In short, it's not a perfect solution, but something to > >consider. Now, with administration SW available for Windows > >systems, you don't necessarily have to have a Mac to > >configure them.... > > At least for the older AirPorts (short WEP keys, as a result of > using a Lucent "silver" PCMCIA card; single wired Ethernet port), > there's also a Java-based configurator (in net/airport in the FreeBSD > "ports"; see http://edge.mcs.drexel.edu/GICL/people/sevy/airport/ > for the details), which is even more handy for those of us who > wouldn't trust a Microsoft-based product for anything important. > on FreeBSD, its in /usr/ports/net/airport and it works wonderfully :) I've been using it for the better part of a year now, and its not given me problems, though I've heard of some people trashing thier airport configs with it, theres also the Lucent CLI configurator which works with the airport, for those "rescue" moments. (Yes, I've had to do that too) -Trish -- Trish Lynch trish@bsdunix.net FreeBSD The Power to Serve Ecartis Core Team http://www.ecartis.org formerly Listar http://www.listar.org Network Security Engineer tlynch@camelotta.com Camelot Technical Advisors http://www.camelotta.com Key fingerprint = C44E 8E63 6E3C 18BD 608F E004 9DC7 C2E9 0E24 DFBD From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 25 13:39:49 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0PLY6W01595 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:34:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g0PLY5h01591 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:34:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from arrakis.parc.xerox.com ([13.1.100.109]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <129326(2)>; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:33:57 PST Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:33:45 PST From: Keith Farrar Reply-To: To: Strata Rose Chalup cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] sniffing switched nets In-Reply-To: <3C51B51B.DC164A22@virtual.net> Message-ID: Sensitivity: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Search for arpspoof or macof (flooding the ARP table on some switches can transform them into repeaters...). > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:42:19 PST > From: Strata Rose Chalup > To: SAGE Members > Subject: Re: [SAGE] sniffing switched nets > > > David, > > I've been given to understand that the technique involves reconfiguring > the switch to copy traffic to a monitor port. Given how easy it > allegedly is to break into most switches, I think this is a valid line > of attack. > > There's also supposed to be another technique, about which here is > something from a quick Google search: > > [PS] www.infosys.tuwien.ac.at/Teaching/Courses/InetSec/slides/slides2.ps > File Format: Adobe PostScript - View as Text > ... Sniffing also possible at switched Ethernet, where the switch ... forbidden (in contrast to > sniffing, spoofing) in the lab ... router knows which nets it is connected to ... > Similar pages > > X.25 Hacking > ... useful comments about x.25 nets Short Outdials/x.25 hacking ... TO SPRINTNET AND SIMILAR > PACKET SWITCHED NETWORKS P/H/A - Written ... crew Sita Network NUI Sniffing!!! ... > qwerty.nanko.ru/x25/o_index.htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages > > There was a lot of material coming up on a search for "sniffing switched > nets", of which about 1 item on each page was of interest. > > cheers, > Strata > > "David R. Linn" wrote: > > > > A few meetings ago (perhaps the ATC in San Diego), I seem to recall > > that some attendees demonstrated that you can sniff switched nets by > > collecting and then posting a set of passwords that they had captured > > from the switched TTY room net. I believe that they wrote up their > > technique, maybe for a WIP, maybe for a later conference. > > > > The fellow teaching our new InfoSec class was asking me for ideas of > > things to cover and I mentioned this incident in the context of > > convincing people to use crypto for anything they want secured. He > > asked me for a pointer and a quick look at the USENIX site didn't > > provide me with one so I'm turning to the collective. > > > > If this is not all a sign of premature senility, could someone point > > me at that writeup. > > > > David > > -- > > David R. Linn, SEDCON System Manager | INET: drl@vuse.vanderbilt.edu > > Disclaimer: I speak only for myself | Phone: [+1] 615-343-6164 > > http://www.vuse.vanderbilt.edu/~drl > > * If you cannot strive for excellence, at least strive for adequacy. * > > -- | Keith Farrar | Xerox PARC CSNS | Palo Alto, CA | 650-812-4292 | | DOMAIN: farrar@parc.xerox.com | | From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 25 13:46:03 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0PLeKT01728 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:40:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from tethys.bitshift.org (12-234-248-158.client.attbi.com [12.234.248.158]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0PLeJh01724 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:40:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from skritch@localhost) by tethys.bitshift.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id g0PLeIU84512 for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:40:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:40:18 -0800 From: "Mark C. Langston" To: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] sniffing switched nets Message-ID: <20020125134018.U69212@bitshift.org> References: <200201251623.KAA01500@mailhost1.vuse.vanderbilt.edu> <3C51B51B.DC164A22@virtual.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3C51B51B.DC164A22@virtual.net>; from strata@virtual.net on Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 11:42:19AM -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=13 env_From=13 From=13 Subject=2 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 11:42:19AM -0800, Strata Rose Chalup wrote: > > David, > > I've been given to understand that the technique involves reconfiguring > the switch to copy traffic to a monitor port. Given how easy it > allegedly is to break into most switches, I think this is a valid line > of attack. I believe Mudge (@Stake) gave a talk touching on this at USENIX Security 2000 (if my memory isn't completely shot). It's not always necessary to break into the switch; some switches will default to hub-like behavior under certain circumstances, echoing every port to every other port. -- Mark C. Langston mark@bitshift.org Systems & Network Admin http://www.bitshift.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 25 14:34:24 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0PMUba03062 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:30:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from frogbog.baltimorons.org (IDENT:root@leapfrog.xisp.net [216.181.81.75]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0PMUYh03058 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:30:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jon@localhost) by frogbog.baltimorons.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g0PMVTU01547; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:31:29 -0500 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:31:29 -0500 From: "J. Lasser" To: Strata Rose Chalup Cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] sniffing switched nets Message-ID: <20020125223125.GC1178@frogbog.baltimorons.org> Mail-Followup-To: Strata Rose Chalup , SAGE Members References: <200201251623.KAA01500@mailhost1.vuse.vanderbilt.edu> <3C51B51B.DC164A22@virtual.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7ZAtKRhVyVSsbBD2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C51B51B.DC164A22@virtual.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=4 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --7ZAtKRhVyVSsbBD2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the wise words of Strata Rose Chalup: > I've been given to understand that the technique involves reconfiguring > the switch to copy traffic to a monitor port. Given how easy it > allegedly is to break into most switches, I think this is a valid line > of attack. =20 >=20 > There's also supposed to be another technique, about which here is > something from a quick Google search: [ . . . ] There's a technique to do this by flooding switches with fake MAC addresses until the switch drops back into hub mode. A quick google search on "switch mac flood" returns angst, which apparently uses this technique: http://angst.sourceforge.net/ # Angst is an active sniffer, based on libpcap and libnet. Angst provides # methods for aggressive sniffing on switched local area network # environments. It dumps the payload of all the TCP packets received on # the specified ports. Moreover, it implements methods for active # sniffing. Angst currently provides two active sniffing methods. The # first monitors ARP requests, and after enabling IP forwarding on the # local host, sends ARP replies mapping all IPs to the local MAC address. # The second method floods the local network with random MAC addresses # (like macof v1.1 by Ian Vitek), causing switches to send packets to all # ports. Made just for testing purposes and fun. If you compile it on any # other platform except the ones listed below, please contact me at the # above email address. As always, published under a BSD style license, see # the included LICENSE file. Jon --=20 Jon Lasser=09 Home: jon@lasser.org | Work:jon@cluestickconsulting.com http://www.tux.org/~lasser/ | http://www.cluestickconsulting.com Buy my book, _Think_Unix_! http://www.tux.org/~lasser/think-unix/ --7ZAtKRhVyVSsbBD2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQCVAwUBPFHcvSsJJQQiCQ0lAQG5EQP+J+1FXNusQLWuHW0cous1goAXyl7QpZ9A ss55dRLdDgKnIm/0F1dGGMo640uPbLC786Iy7TnzVyBHWDHZtz6ilcobAOcHPxLB dK8I/RuP7O7Srqbezj2d1bVWDGkIeqaNmtq6CSuAz827K5DTwE9ox0sWkDVcWQXd c5lFBpKhbWU= =AlPO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --7ZAtKRhVyVSsbBD2-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 25 15:31:48 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0PNSt904484 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:28:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from artful.grumblesmurf.net (artful.grumblesmurf.net [208.187.215.126]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0PNSrh04480 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:28:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from darrell@localhost) by artful.grumblesmurf.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) id g0PNTFd03367; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:29:15 -0800 (PST) To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Apple Airport base station admin SW for Wintel References: <20020125143706.D4181-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> From: Darrell Fuhriman Date: 25 Jan 2002 15:29:14 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cat Okita's message of "Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:41:59 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Canyonlands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=6 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Cat Okita writes: > If you aren't buying a brand spanking new one, be aware that they were > originally shipped with 64bit keys, only. Of course, these days that doesn't matter. WEP is so thoroughly broken that the length of the key is irrelevant. http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/isaac/wep-faq.html Darrell From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Jan 25 17:16:06 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0Q1CeC07440 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:12:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0Q1Cdh07436 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:12:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from sdn-ar-004casfrmp001.dialsprint.net ([158.252.211.3] helo=thecrazypenguin) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16UHOX-0007a5-00 for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:12:38 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20020125162008.00b19aa0@64.94.47.7> X-Sender: cory@mail.crazypenguin.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:12:38 -0800 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: "Cory L. Scott" Subject: Re: [SAGE] sniffing switched nets and VLANs In-Reply-To: <200201251623.KAA01500@mailhost1.vuse.vanderbilt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=many env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The talk you are referring to is Dug Song's paper on collecting passwords on a wireless network. The link to the paper is at http://www.monkey.org/~dugsong/talks/usenix00.ps Note that only the front page of monkey.org/~dugsong is "censored". The rest of the content is there. To answer your question about switched networks, there are several ways to sniff switched networks. If you are an authorized administrator (or just happen to know how to authenticate and login to the switch), most departmental-grade and higher switches support SPAN ports. A SPAN port mirrors traffic from all ports on the switch. SPAN ports are often used for diagnostic purposes or intrusion detection deployments. A good tutorial on SPAN ports is available at http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/473/41.html If you are an attacker, there are other opportunities. ARP flooding, as alluded to in another post, will cause some switches to "fall open" and act as a hub or repeater rather than a switch. The ARP table on a switch (also known as a CAM table) maintains the port numbers and MAC addresses to forward packets to. Most switches have enough memory for the CAM table to handle normal use-cases. However, when an attacker starts producing multiple ARP entries at a fast rate, the table fills up, and the switch falls open in order to continue (albeit, slower) operations. Sniffing can then take place. You can find multiple utilities out there to do this. ARP poisoning/spoofing is not an attack on the switch, per se, but an attack on two communicating hosts in the same segment on a switch. Since all ARP replies are broadcast on a switch and hosts typically insert all ARP replies into their ARP table, a malicious host can broadcast ARP replies to the two victim hosts, overwriting the ARP table of the victim hosts with the attacker's ARP address. All future packets (until there is another ARP reply by a victim host causing an overwrite of the ARP table) will go to the attacker. The attacker (if they want to be somewhat stealthy) will need to forward these packets after interception to their original destination afterwards, otherwise the connection breaks down rather quickly. Common attacks include spoofing the ARP address of the default gateway in order to capture all outbound traffic on a switched network. You can catch these types of attacks by keeping an eye on the ARP table of hosts in your network. When multiple fresh ARP entries have the same IP address, you probably have a problem. Arpwatch is a nice utility to catch this activity. Note that some OS implementations of TCP/IP handle gratuitous ARP replies in different ways (ie. ARP table can only be updated after a timeout period), so your mileage may vary. For more information on ARP poisoning/spoofing, check out http://packetstorm.decepticons.org/papers/protocols/intro_to_arp_spoofing.pdf Another entry-level discussion on the topic is at http://www.sans.org/newlook/resources/IDFAQ/switched_network.htm And since we're on the topic, what about VLANs on a switch? VLANs, which are used for Layer 2 separation for virtual segments, are often deployed on medium to large-sized switches. I have often seen deployments where the same switch blade will handle a DMZ network on ports 1-10 on VLAN 1, an internal segment on ports 11-20 on VLAN 2, and an extranet segment on ports 21-24 on VLAN 3. This rather precarious deployment assumes that there is no way for traffic to "leak" or be monitored between VLANs and that Layer 3 routing and access control is sufficient. However, VLANs are not designed to be used as security boundaries. Even Cisco says so: "Avoid using VLANs as the sole method of securing access between two subnets. The capability for human error, combined with understanding that VLANs and VLAN tagging protocols were not designed with security in mind, makes their use in sensitive environments inadvisable. When VLANs are needed in security deployments, be sure to pay close attention to the configurations and guidelines mentioned above." - from http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/cc/so/cuso/epso/sqfr/safe_wp.htm Attacks on the tagging protocols have taken place in the past (see http://www.sans.org/newlook/resources/IDFAQ/vlan.htm) and configuration of VLANs can be less than straightforward when attempting to limit access to VLANs or trunk ports. Be careful out there! :-) C At 10:23 AM 1/25/2002 -0600, David R. Linn wrote: >A few meetings ago (perhaps the ATC in San Diego), I seem to recall >that some attendees demonstrated that you can sniff switched nets by >collecting and then posting a set of passwords that they had captured >from the switched TTY room net. I believe that they wrote up their >technique, maybe for a WIP, maybe for a later conference. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Jan 26 11:48:41 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0QJcmm13229 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 11:38:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org (root@mail.reptiles.org [198.96.117.157]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0QJckh13225 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 11:38:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org([198.96.117.157]) (1182 bytes) by mail.reptiles.org via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) id for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 14:39:03 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.114 2001-Aug-6 #10 built 2002-Jan-14) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 14:38:53 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Darrell Fuhriman cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Apple Airport base station admin SW for Wintel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020126143657.U4181-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=2 Subject=9 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 25 Jan 2002, Darrell Fuhriman wrote: > Of course, these days that doesn't matter. WEP is so thoroughly > broken that the length of the key is irrelevant. > > http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/isaac/wep-faq.html Well, yes - but I'd still rather protect myself against the casual passer by... cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Jan 27 00:27:45 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0R8Mj516180 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 00:22:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.47]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0R8Mhh16176 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 00:22:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop ([12.83.111.126]) by mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020127082237.UZRN941.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@laptop>; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 08:22:37 +0000 Received: from jens by laptop with local (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 16UkVD-0001tM-00; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 01:17:27 -0700 To: "David R. Linn" Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] sniffing switched nets References: <200201251623.KAA01500@mailhost1.vuse.vanderbilt.edu> Organization: - From: Jens Link Date: 27 Jan 2002 01:17:27 -0700 In-Reply-To: <200201251623.KAA01500@mailhost1.vuse.vanderbilt.edu> Message-ID: <87hep8nr6w.fsf@quux.de> Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Common Lisp) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=12 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=8 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk "David R. Linn" writes: > A few meetings ago (perhaps the ATC in San Diego), I seem to recall > that some attendees demonstrated that you can sniff switched nets by > collecting and then posting a set of passwords that they had captured > >from the switched TTY room net. I believe that they wrote up their > technique, maybe for a WIP, maybe for a later conference. Take a lool at http://www.fefe.de/switch/ Jens -- I just found out that the brain is like a computer. If that's true, then there really aren't any stupid people. Just people running Windows. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Jan 27 13:34:57 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0RLNWj18698 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:23:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org (root@mail.reptiles.org [198.96.117.157]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0RLNVh18694 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:23:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org([198.96.117.157]) (2596 bytes) by mail.reptiles.org via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) id for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:23:50 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.114 2001-Aug-6 #10 built 2002-Jan-14) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:23:49 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Chuck Yerkes cc: Darrell Fuhriman , Subject: Re: [SAGE] Apple Airport base station admin SW for Wintel In-Reply-To: <20020127110221.A5165@snew.com> Message-ID: <20020127155121.J4181-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=2 From=4 Subject=12 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 27 Jan 2002, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > Quoting Cat Okita (cat@reptiles.org): > > On 25 Jan 2002, Darrell Fuhriman wrote: > > > Of course, these days that doesn't matter. WEP is so thoroughly > > > broken that the length of the key is irrelevant. > > > > > > http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/isaac/wep-faq.html > > > > Well, yes - but I'd still rather protect myself against the casual > > passer by... > Then the cheaper cards will meet your need. It's the difference > between encoding with ROT13 or uuencode. I think you missed my point entirely, which was simply that the early airports used lucent silver cards, which only provide 64 bit keys. The later ones use lucent gold cards, which provide 128 bit keys. Yes, WEP is close to useless - but close to useless, and useless aren't the same thing. While there's very little statistical difference in the cracking speed between 64bit and 128bit keys, with weak keys, there's a lot of difference when you can avoid weak keys (and modifications to attempt to protect against this vulnerability are taking place http://www.wavelan.com/template.html?section=m52&envelope=90&page=3267) > WEP is close to useless, whether 64 or 128 or 1024 bit. > IPSEC from the laptop to the target is acceptable. Yes - in fact I'm sure you missed my point. I'm definately not claiming that WEP isn't problematic, or that you should use _only_ WEP. I'm suggesting that you should use as much (or as little) data security as you're comfortable with. I could ask whether your laptop is secure - and whether the target is secure - but I'd prefer to assume that you're sufficiently competent to have ensured both. cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Jan 27 18:18:50 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0S2EvN19772 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:14:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0S2EuI19767 for sage-members@usenix.org; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:14:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from grover.snew.com (grover.snew.com [206.136.66.62]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0RJ2Sh18309 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified FAIL) for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:02:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by grover.snew.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0RJ2LU05214; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:02:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:02:21 -0800 From: Chuck Yerkes To: Cat Okita Cc: Darrell Fuhriman , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Apple Airport base station admin SW for Wintel Message-ID: <20020127110221.A5165@snew.com> References: <20020126143657.U4181-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020126143657.U4181-100000@iguana.reptiles.org>; from cat@reptiles.org on Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 02:38:53PM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=11 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Cat Okita (cat@reptiles.org): > On 25 Jan 2002, Darrell Fuhriman wrote: > > Of course, these days that doesn't matter. WEP is so thoroughly > > broken that the length of the key is irrelevant. > > > > http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/isaac/wep-faq.html > > Well, yes - but I'd still rather protect myself against the casual > passer by... Then the cheaper cards will meet your need. It's the difference between encoding with ROT13 or uuencode. WEP is close to useless, whether 64 or 128 or 1024 bit. IPSEC from the laptop to the target is acceptable. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 28 01:01:26 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0S8vdN21123 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:57:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pop.snert.net (mail.snert.net [195.5.195.101]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0S8vbh21119 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:57:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from snert.com ([193.41.72.227]) by pop.snert.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0S8vWSv005953 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:57:35 +0100 Message-ID: <3C551277.8040109@snert.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:57:27 +0100 From: Anthony Howe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sage Subject: [SAGE] Added headers to outgoing mail... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk What are the Sendmail rules to add extra headers to outbound mail? -- Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus "Microsoft (cough, sputter, spit, !@#$%) ..." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 28 08:26:45 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0SGPD922994 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 08:25:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0SGPCp22989 for sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 08:25:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu (delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.209.216]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g0S3tXh20143 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:55:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25902 invoked by uid 66145); 28 Jan 2002 03:55:37 -0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:55:37 -0600 From: Craig Hancock To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Starting a local sage group Message-ID: <20020127215537.A25499@delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=6 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I am in the process of starting a local sage group here and I am curious of how to proceed. I am from chicago and if anyone has ever been to chicago they can agree with me it is a big place. The problem that I am having is these factors 1) Distance 2) Convincing syustem admins that this would be beneficial 3) Other User groups who deal with one aspect of system adminstration and only care about that aspect. If anyone has any stories or advice I would greatly appriciate it. Craig Hancock From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 28 08:36:20 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0SGa1423107 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 08:36:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from aberdeen.fpcc.net (aberdeen.fpcc.net [207.174.142.138]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0SGa0h23103 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 08:36:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kirk@localhost) by aberdeen.fpcc.net (8.11.6/8.11.2) id g0SGZxx12437 for sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:35:59 -0700 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:35:59 -0700 From: Kirk Rafferty To: Sage Subject: Re: [SAGE] Added headers to outgoing mail... Message-ID: <20020128093559.D12332@fpcc.net> References: <3C551277.8040109@snert.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3C551277.8040109@snert.com>; from achowe@snert.com on Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 09:57:27AM +0100 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 09:57:27AM +0100, Anthony Howe wrote: > What are the Sendmail rules to add extra headers to outbound mail? I think you can add something like this to your mc file... LOCAL_CONFIG HX-My-Header: Header Info (you could change "Header Info" to something in a variable, like $j or somesuch) Several things to keep in mind: 1) I haven't tested this, so the syntax may be slightly off (or may not work with your version of Sendmail) 2) If I remember correctly, adding a header in this way puts it in a "non-standard" location in the envelope headers, and may break some mail clients. Hope that helps, or at the very least, doesn't break anything. -k From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 28 10:23:35 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0SIMm124394 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:22:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from gwyn.tux.org (ident-user@gwyn.tux.org [207.96.122.8]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0SIMgh24390 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:22:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jsdy@localhost) by gwyn.tux.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA21402; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:22:18 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:22:18 -0500 From: Joseph S D Yao To: Anthony Howe Cc: Sage Subject: Re: [SAGE] Added headers to outgoing mail... Message-ID: <20020128132218.G2716@gwyn.tux.org> Mail-Followup-To: Anthony Howe , Sage References: <3C551277.8040109@snert.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3C551277.8040109@snert.com>; from achowe@snert.com on Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 09:57:27AM +0100 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=89 env_From=2 From=3 Subject=2 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 09:57:27AM +0100, Anthony Howe wrote: > What are the Sendmail rules to add extra headers to outbound mail? Prefix the headers with 'H': HDate: $a Typically done conditionally on header-line flags: H?D?Date: $a and can have conditionals inserted in its body. -- /*********************************************************************\ ** ** Joe Yao jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao ** \*********************************************************************/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 28 12:34:28 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0SKWoU26151 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:32:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from frogbog.baltimorons.org (IDENT:root@leapfrog.baltimorons.org [216.181.177.189]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0SKWmh26146 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:32:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jon@localhost) by frogbog.baltimorons.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0SKX8112206; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:33:08 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:33:08 -0500 From: "J. Lasser" To: Craig Hancock Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Starting a local sage group Message-ID: <20020128203304.GF10792@frogbog.baltimorons.org> Mail-Followup-To: Craig Hancock , sage-members@usenix.org References: <20020127215537.A25499@delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DO5DiztRLs659m5i" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020127215537.A25499@delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=2 From=3 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --DO5DiztRLs659m5i Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the wise words of Craig Hancock: [ . . . Perceived Difficulties in starting a local Chicago SAGE Group ] > 1) Distance > 2) Convincing syustem admins that this would be beneficial > 3) Other User groups who deal with one aspect of system adminstration and= only care > about that aspect. >=20 > If anyone has any stories or advice I would greatly appriciate it. Well, while I didn't start the Old Bay SAGE group in Baltimore, I have now run it pretty much single-handedly for about a year and a half, and was part of the ruling cabal for at least another year and a half. When I became unofficial meeting instigator, the group was essentially defunct. (I certainly welcome other opinions on that, but I'd argue that three people showing up for beer with no speaker and no agenda doesn't really constitute a functional group.) I'm not sure what you mean by point three above, so I'm going to basically ignore it for the time being. I do have stories about the other two points, along with some observations of my own: Convincing other admins that a local SAGE group would be beneficial is indeed the first step. Frankly, in my experience you can't simply declare by fiat that this is so. I'd really recommend starting a local mailing list first, and then when that's achieved a certain critical mass, proceed from there. Here's why: If your goal is to attract more than three or four people on a regular basis, you need to have eight to ten people, minimum, who you can count on showing up to meetings. Fewer than that and, generally, you'll have people show up once or twice, decide that the group's not really worthwhile (for whatever reason: nobody just like them, too much similarity in group members, no help for a very specific problem, etc.), and not return. To attract that many people on a regular basis, I believe you need some sort of group identity. Starting a local SAGE-ish mailing list in your area will allow people to come to know one another without committing to attending a physical meeting. It will allow people to trade useful information (problem-solving, jobs-offered, seeking-employment, etc.) without too much commitment. If your list develops succesfully, you'll have to work to keep people from getting together in person, at least occasionally and informally. Once you've got people who want to meet each other, you need to provide motive. This means having a speaker, usually. Refreshments are also helpful for this. If you can have a speaker every meeting, two if the presentations are brief, then you can attract not only regular attendees but additional people who might choose to show up for further meetings. A third critical component, in my opinion, is consistency. Pick a meeting day --- something that works for your core group of 8-10 people --- and then unilaterally declare that it is so. And then meet on that day every month, every other month, or every third month. (The Baltimore group meets on the second Tuesday of each month. The DC group has a funny rotating schedule that the Baltimore group used to use, and which seemed to lose us as many attendees as it brought us.) Announce meetings two weeks in advance, one week in advance, and then the day before the meeting. Include an agenda in the meeting announcement, with speaker information, round-the-room introductions, job-hunting and job-seeking time, and then additional business. Finally, I'd suggest adjourning to a local bar or restaurant afterwards, and try to keep the main part of the meeting under two hours, or ninety minutes if you can manage it. (OBS doors open at 7:15, meeting starts at 8, and ends no later than 9:30 if we can manage it.) If you can have that sort of consistency, and know enough people to speak at three or four consecutive meetings (yes, you count, but not more than once or twice at first), and you've developed some local community, then convincing people to show up is no problem. As far as location, I've discovered that absolute convenience of location (ie centrality) is far less important than simplicity of directions. OBS, before I became Unofficial Meeting Instigator, used to meet at Johns Hopkins University, which is quite centrally located --- but also difficult to get to if you're not intimately familiar with Baltimore City. No directions seemed to work. We've had three meeting locations since then, and they're no more than two turns off of the highway, even if it's a number of miles up the road. Pick a location that's convenient for a core group of 8-10 people (the same ones from whom the date is convenient, preferably!), announce the first meeting at least a month in advance, have speakers, and keep it consistent. If you can make it worth folks' while, they'll travel a reasonable distance to attend your meeting. (We've had people attending from DC for our last several meetings --- we had Tom Limoncelli speak last month, and the month before that an FBI agent was supposed to have spoken, but that turned out to be the day of the big Warez bust, so he's coming back in February.) Generally, I buy about $25 worth of soda and chips, get a speaker, and send out meeting announcements. If you or your cabal can come up with that money on a regular basis, then I'd recommend against starting with any sort of formal organization. If you later discover you need one, then by all means do it, but we paid for Tom Limoncelli's train ticket from New Jersey totally through informal donations --- basically people handing me cash at the meeting, and then me keeping running totals on a sheet of paper. (We also encourage local folks to speak by covering their food/drink after the meeting, also paid for through completely informal donations.) And I'd recommend against a cabal of people running things, mostly because people take less responsibility when there's no blame if things fall through the cracks. I'd also like to hear from other local group coordinators and find out what their experiences have been... Jon --=20 Jon Lasser=09 Home: jon@lasser.org | Work:jon@cluestickconsulting.com http://www.tux.org/~lasser/ | http://www.cluestickconsulting.com Buy my book, _Think_Unix_! http://www.tux.org/~lasser/think-unix/ --DO5DiztRLs659m5i Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQCVAwUBPFW1gCsJJQQiCQ0lAQHqWAQAmc3OnZgnsVqO1dQFlWJPs8Trac7/IgF3 tzEnpsuglOKEV9jIQn3vmifDhTem/p/oVcFnOsq3edI/xB80XqGIU3ujrF6y08HY KPIuOmjZASfv8RghG82LzIN1LCkXd82ot9Es8RTG6/nxYTG0beeNO10OOLgJqgtr o11mvn2lKXU= =Ikj6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --DO5DiztRLs659m5i-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 28 14:36:09 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0SMXFV27656 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:33:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from tiku.hut.fi (tiku.hut.fi [130.233.228.86]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0SMXDh27652 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from carmen.hut.fi (jannek@carmen.hut.fi [130.233.200.85]) by tiku.hut.fi (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA05781 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 00:33:11 +0200 (EET) Received: (from jannek@localhost) by carmen.hut.fi (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA03252 for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 00:33:10 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 00:33:10 +0200 From: Janne Korkkula To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] sun4u sparc console at over 9600bps, anyone..? Message-ID: <20020129003310.E25216@cc.hut.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Greetings from freezing Finland! As I'm a new list member, here's a minimal introduction, with a short story (on topic). I'm an unix specialist (sysadmin, if you will) at the Helsinki University of Technology Computing Centre. I've worked here for the last five years as the technical webmaster of the University. (Technical as in the servers are "mine", the content isn't.) And now, time for the story to begin... Serial consoles and terminal servers have been around for ages and they're a really great help. But the year is 2002 now, and our central processing units run _millions_ of instructions per second! :-) Yet no-one seems to think RS-232 can do more than 9600 bps. Might I be missing something important here? Yes, very likely. I was just fooling around with a new Sun box before it was even installed. It's hooked up to a Sun NTS, ie. a Bay Networks Micro Annex. Used to ethernet speeds, the whopping 9,6kbit/s connection started to bug me somewhere between the 'o' and the 'k' when the thing displayed those lovely letters for the very first time. I thought I might as well do something about it. Yes, regardless of the fact that the console is hardly ever needed. Should be so quick and trivial to crank up at least 38400 bps, right? wrong. cws# na command: set port=8 speed 38400 command: reset 8 new# eeprom ttya-mode=38400,8,n,1- new# vi /etc/ttydefs console:38400 hupcl opost onlcr:38400::console new# halt ok reset-all Resetting ...þøþàøþààøøàþààààààþøøà[...this goes on for a while...] þøøøàþøþþþþàþøþþøconfiguring IPv4 interfaces: eri0. Hostname: new The system is coming up. Please wait. 38400 bps openboot - no problem. 38400 bps console - no problem. Wouldn't it be nice if the boot-up sequence would honor the eeprom setting as well? I even tried feedind /kernel/drv/options.conf a customized ttymodes-parameter obtained from a 38400 bps console session with 'stty -g' - actually that's the result seen above. The kernel version is 5.8 Generic_108528-11; -12 is out already, but somehow I don't think they've addressed this issue... :-) I'm very interested in any success stories - otherwise, heed these deep words of experience and wisdom: 9600 bps should be enough for everyone. -- Janne Korkkula Helsinki University of Technology, Computing Centre jk@hut.fi tel. +358 9 451 4314 http://www.hut.fi/cc/u/jannek/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 28 22:50:01 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0T6kX400868 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:46:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj1-3-4-9.securesites.net (sj1-3-4-9.securesites.net [192.220.127.202]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0T6kVh00864 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:46:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 67513 invoked by uid 18647); 29 Jan 2002 06:46:30 -0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:46:30 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Starting a local sage group Message-ID: <20020128224630.B66697@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <20020127215537.A25499@delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu> <20020128203304.GF10792@frogbog.baltimorons.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020128203304.GF10792@frogbog.baltimorons.org>; from jon@lasser.org on Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 03:33:08PM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=3 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 03:33:08PM -0500, J. Lasser wrote: > ... > Well, while I didn't start the Old Bay SAGE group in Baltimore, I have > now run it pretty much single-handedly for about a year and a half, and > was part of the ruling cabal for at least another year and a half. >... Your experiences were fairly similar to mine. The crucial thing, I think, is to get that mailing list going. Or to have one already, and hijack it. Muah-hahahaha... A few minor differences: I "secceeded" our area from a group that was a little too far for me :-) There was a UNIX group meeting regularly in the next county over (Orange County, calif.), but I didnt like the drive from LA. One day, after other people were whinging about "it's too far to drive" on the pre-existing mailing list, I decided to do something about it. Funnily enough, there USED to be an LA group, but it 'died' a few years back, IIRC. With that in mind, I proceeded to cajole, finagle, (and bully in some cases) a new meeting place and time. [ST:TNG, the one where Beverly can hear Picard's thoughts, on WHY they are going left, not right ; Because he just decided they were going to do that :-) ] I made the first presentation, I ended up hosting the meeting in my company-at-the-time's building, and I think we had a whopping 6 people show up :-) It was a little depressing for the first few months, but I kept at it. The trick for us was in finding presenters in time for the next meeting. But somehow, it kept going, only missing one month. After 2 years we're now up to 40-50 people each meeting, (after having changed location twice!) and thankfully, someone else has taken the majority of the task of scheduling speakers upon himself. We have almost never had an "outside" speaker. There arent any famous admins in our area, and there are no dues, so no money to fly people in. It is almost always done by a list member who wants to share the latest CoolThing(tm)[*] PS: I do NOT bribe people with food :-) However, we DO have a regular post-meeting dinner. I was inspired by the post-meeting dinner at BayLISA for that one. PPS: http://www.bolthole.com/uuala/ [*] CoolThing(tm) MegaTokyo.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Jan 28 23:00:23 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0T6wAt00922 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from spliff.LuftHans.com (cpe-24-221-1-115.az.sprintbbd.net [24.221.1.115]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0T6w8h00917 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:58:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by spliff.LuftHans.com with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1 (Debian)) id 16VSKm-0002Zd-00; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 00:05:37 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 00:05:35 -0700 (MST) From: "der.hans" X-Sender: lufthans@spliff.LuftHans.com To: Craig Hancock cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Starting a local sage group In-Reply-To: <20020127215537.A25499@delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-15 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=4 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by usenix.org id g0T6w9h00918 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Am 27. Jan, 2002 schwätzte Craig Hancock so: > I am in the process of starting a local sage group here and I am curious > of how to proceed. I am from chicago and if anyone has ever been to > chicago they can agree with me it is a big place. The problem that I am > having is these factors > > 1) Distance This is a big one in Phoenix. I think we're 100 miles across. Our LUG has started having West Side meetings as well as East Side meetings. A whole new group of people started showing up for the West Side meetings. It was cool to get that off the ground. > 2) Convincing syustem admins that this would be beneficial This can be hard, but I think you'd be OK in Chicago. Start off with a few people you know, then use duct tape to capture other participants :). > 3) Other User groups who deal with one aspect of system adminstration and > only care about that aspect. With something like this ( actually with any organization where you might have a lot of people intersted in both groups ) you can either work with them or avoid them. I no longer participate in our local SAGE group because they changed the meeting nights to be the same as our main LUG meeting. I help run the LUG, so it's hard for me to skip even if I wanted to. Many people have mentioned having to choose between the two. At the same time the two groups ( and others ) worked together to bring esr in town twice with great success. Several other co-sponsored events were looking good, but just didn't make it off the ground. Another problem with the local SAGE group is they have no general member mailing list. Other than the people I already know, I have no way of communicating with other members or asking them questions. Not that I need another mailing list anyway :). ciao, der.hans -- # http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/ http://www.DevelopOnline.com/ # Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. -- Thomas Jefferson From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 29 07:41:47 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0TFZc403109 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 07:35:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from onion.spotch.com (onion.spotch.com [63.86.2.125]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0TFZbh03104 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 07:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from robjen@localhost) by onion.spotch.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA14035; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:35:34 -0500 From: Rob Jenson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15446.49476.965346.183819@onion.spotch.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:35:32 -0500 (EST) To: Craig Hancock Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Starting a local sage group In-Reply-To: <20020127215537.A25499@delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu> References: <20020127215537.A25499@delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.62 under Emacs 20.2.1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=7 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hopefully, I'm not going to reiterate some of the fine points that Jon, Phillip, and der.Hans have already made. I've been asked the question several times and hopefully I'll have the time to digest them and put them up on the web RSN. A couple of points to note: (1) There was an attempt to start a local sysadmin group in Chicago, back in 1996. They still have web pages on the USENIX server, although there doesn't seem to be any change or activity since 1999. http://www.usenix.org/sage/locals/chigrp/index.html One of the keys to getting such a group up and running, and more importantly, keeping it alive, is to have more than one person who is actively energized about getting it going, getting the meetings to happen, keeping people interested, pulling in new members, etc. Our lives are dynamic, even without being sysadmins ... doubly so with the non-linearity inherent to our profession. OBS went into stagnation because all of the people who were hyped about making it happen moved out of town over the course of a couple of months, and nobody (until Jon) stepped up to keep it going. (2) One way of overcoming such obstacles as {Wide Metropolitan Area, Lousy Public Transportation, Heinous Traffic, Vicious Bands of Angry Farmers, etc.} is to get the group together first as a "virtual group" ... set up a mailing list and a web page and start finding people in Chicagoland who are interested in systems administration. You're never going to hit 100% as far as the right day of the week, date, location, or the easiest time, to accomodate everyone ... shoot for something that accomodates the largest subset you can. Also, shoot for something that works for the organizers and speakers. It is really embarrassing when you are the organizer of the meeting and the main speaker and you show up 2 hours late because of traffic problems and getting lost. It probably wasn't much fun for everyone else at the meeting waiting for me to show up either. :-< (3) Don't worry too much about convincing other sysadmins (directly) that it will be useful. Word of mouth becomes very powerful in our community. I'm willing to hazard a guess that there are at least a dozen people on this mailing list who are in your area and would like to see a Chicago group get going and/or be resurrected. Once you have a core of people (ideally from different employers), it's simply a matter of encouraging everyone who is there to talk about the group with their co-workers, past and present (even future), and friends. It's not instantaneous, and sometimes interest can fizzle away to nothing for a while. Economic volatility tends to keep people interested in the local groups I participate in: When times are tough, and sysadmin jobs are scarce, people need to network more in order to find a job (see local sysadmin group). When times are good, and there are plenty of jobs, not enough qualified candidates, people need to network more in order to fill their positions or find clueful co-workers (see local sysadmin group). In the in-between times, people who want to keep up with the field, other local employers, who's got the best DSL prices and will still give you static IP numbers, etc. still find the local sysadmin group useful. I think the moral of the story is that people will figure it out once they know it exists. (4) Other local user groups are a good place to spread the word, and usually, the organizers of those groups will welcome a chance to collaborate and maybe even have some joint meetings. Local Linux, *BSD, and commercial operating system user groups are a very good place to start. Perlmonger, Webmaster, I.T. Professional, local ACM or I.E.E.E. chapters are also potential meeting places for new members. Not everyone in those groups will have an interest in systems administration, but some will. In general, if the group already has a focus, such as a programming language, or an operating system, there won't be any sense that you're "stealing" their members or trying to dilute their focus. On the contrary. (5) Spread the word. Once you have the mailing list and a web site, get people to find out about it. Mention it in job interviews. If you have a local technical who deals with different Sysadmins often, such as a Sun F.E., if you invite him/her to your meetings and to join the group, word will spread very quickly to different shops. Announce your meetings to the local Chicago newsgroup. If your local newspaper has a "Tech. Professionals" column, you might want to write to the author of that column and ask if you could get a mention. I did this last week and we got a short blurb in the Business section of the Washington Post. It's fairly safe to assume that you are not the only person who is passionate about getting a local group in Chicago going ... it's just a matter of getting a critical mass together. Just don't SPAM people. (6) Check your ego at the door, before you get started. You are going to attract a lot of bright, highly-opinionated individuals into a small space. There can be many conflicting ideas and opinions in such an environment, and part of your role is going to be that of moderator / peace-maker. If it turns into the "all about me" show, you're going to find that your group doesn't grow beyond a small number of people who already like your ideas. (7) Try to balance professional interest, socialization, and fun. That's it for now. Again, hopefully, I'll get motivated to put this up on the web, along with a link to the SAGE locals page that has plenty of good info ( http://www.usenix.org/sage/locals/ ). _rob_ P.S.: Posting signs on the bulletin boards at local technical colleges, university math, computer science, and engineering departments, cyber cafes, and other places where a potential sysadmin might be found "in the wild" are also a great way to get local people interested. Craig Hancock writes: > I am in the process of starting a local sage group here and I am curious of how to proceed. I am from > chicago and if anyone has ever been to chicago they can agree with me it is a big place. The problem > that I am having is these factors > > 1) Distance > 2) Convincing syustem admins that this would be beneficial > 3) Other User groups who deal with one aspect of system adminstration and only care > about that aspect. > > If anyone has any stories or advice I would greatly appriciate it. > > Craig Hancock -- Rob Jenson - Sysadmin and "an eccentric who learned how to do a couple of cool things along the way" -- Penn & Teller Web Site: http://www.spotch.com/~robjen Disclaimer: http://www.spotch.com/~robjen/disclaimer.shtml From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 29 09:47:07 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0THfUK05476 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:41:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0THfTU05471 for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpsrv0.isis.unc.edu (smtpsrv0.isis.unc.edu [152.2.1.139]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0TF7rh02984 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 07:07:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from radonc.unc.edu (pc-jefferson.radonc.unc.edu [152.19.34.180]) by smtpsrv0.isis.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA07630; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:07:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C56BAC8.BEE08534@radonc.unc.edu> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:07:52 -0500 From: Liyun Yu Organization: Dept of Radiation Oncology, UNC-CH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Subject: [SAGE] Help: Changing Solaris6 System Hard Disk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=46 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Our Solaris 6 box has a fatal media error on its OS system hard disk drive. FSCK won't fix it. We have to replace it but also have to get the data and system information back to the new disk as much as possible as they were on the bad disk. There are several partitions including /, /etc, and /var on this bad disk currently. Never done this before, I am looking for some suggestions, step by step instructions, or any information pointers regarding to this issue. Your help is appreciated. Thanks, -- Liyun ========================================================================= Liyun Yu, Ph. D.//System Administrator//Dept of Radiation Oncology UNC School of Medicine //101 Manning Drive//Chapel Hill, NC 27599-7512 Office: (919) 966-7704 Ext 1 // FAX: (919) 966-7681 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Jan 29 13:24:45 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0TLLgm14122 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:21:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (IDENT:mirapoint@m1.imap-partners.net [209.245.148.161]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0TLLfh14118 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from virtual.net (adsl-63-193-240-161.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.240.161]) by m1.imap-partners.net (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ACN17380 (AUTH strata@imap-partners.net) for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:21:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3C5714BE.7894F02F@virtual.net> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:31:42 -0800 From: Strata Rose Chalup Reply-To: strata@virtual.net Organization: VirtualNet Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAGE Members Subject: [SAGE] handy little cables for Visor sys/net geeks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=11 env_From=11 From=13 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk So I'm looking for a pre-made cable that I can use to hook up my Visor Prism to a GPS receiver and a radio, for pocketAPRS. A handy little pointer on their page sent me to MarkSpace, which seems to have done the finicky work to create cables that I need. One style of their cable, available in many different ends, caught my eye-- "Handspring Visor/Prism to RJ45 Cisco Router". Do tell! They don't have one for the Platinum/Edge yet, since that's a different base connector. Still, a handy dandy thing to have around perhaps for some of y'all. I have no connection with MarkSpace, except as a potentially satisfied customer, as soon as my cable arrives. ;-) cheers, Strata PS- oh yah: http://www.pocketaprs.com/ http://www.markspace.com/datacord.html PPS- the cable is a stopgap until I get my real toy: wow! http://www.shinemicro.com/SM2496DSPpage3.htm -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 30 14:14:32 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0UM2Uh15923 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 14:02:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.106.3.39] (tribble.usenix.org [131.106.3.39]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0UM2Ph15918; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 14:02:25 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: jess@mail.usenix.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15446.49476.965346.183819@onion.spotch.com> References: <20020127215537.A25499@delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu> <15446.49476.965346.183819@onion.spotch.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 14:03:58 -0700 To: Rob Jenson From: Jessica Fine Subject: Re: [SAGE] Starting a local sage group Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Jon, Phillip, der.hans and Rob have given great advice here. I just want to add that the USENIX/SAGE office staff can provide some additional resources as well. For example, we can provide a list of SAGE members in your area, so you can send them email notifications regarding your group. Also, we can provide materials (fliers, stickers, pins, even $$) for your meetings. More information on this can be found at: http://www.usenix.org/sage/locals/locals-support.html And, please feel free to email me with specific questions. -Jess >Hopefully, I'm not going to reiterate some of the fine points that >Jon, Phillip, and der.Hans have already made. I've been asked the >question several times and hopefully I'll have the time to digest them >and put them up on the web RSN. > >A couple of points to note: > >(1) There was an attempt to start a local sysadmin group in Chicago, > back in 1996. They still have web pages on the USENIX server, > although there doesn't seem to be any change or activity since > 1999. > > http://www.usenix.org/sage/locals/chigrp/index.html > > One of the keys to getting such a group up and running, and > more importantly, keeping it alive, is to have more than one > person who is actively energized about getting it going, getting > the meetings to happen, keeping people interested, pulling in new > members, etc. Our lives are dynamic, even without being sysadmins > ... doubly so with the non-linearity inherent to our profession. > OBS went into stagnation because all of the people who were hyped > about making it happen moved out of town over the course of a > couple of months, and nobody (until Jon) stepped up to keep it > going. > >(2) One way of overcoming such obstacles as {Wide Metropolitan Area, > Lousy Public Transportation, Heinous Traffic, Vicious Bands of > Angry Farmers, etc.} is to get the group together first as a > "virtual group" ... set up a mailing list and a web page and start > finding people in Chicagoland who are interested in systems > administration. You're never going to hit 100% as far as the > right day of the week, date, location, or the easiest time, > to accomodate everyone ... shoot for something that accomodates > the largest subset you can. Also, shoot for something that works > for the organizers and speakers. It is really embarrassing when > you are the organizer of the meeting and the main speaker and you > show up 2 hours late because of traffic problems and getting lost. > It probably wasn't much fun for everyone else at the meeting > waiting for me to show up either. :-< > >(3) Don't worry too much about convincing other sysadmins (directly) > that it will be useful. Word of mouth becomes very powerful in > our community. I'm willing to hazard a guess that there are at > least a dozen people on this mailing list who are in your area and > would like to see a Chicago group get going and/or be resurrected. > Once you have a core of people (ideally from different employers), > it's simply a matter of encouraging everyone who is there to talk > about the group with their co-workers, past and present (even > future), and friends. It's not instantaneous, and sometimes > interest can fizzle away to nothing for a while. Economic > volatility tends to keep people interested in the local groups I > participate in: When times are tough, and sysadmin jobs are > scarce, people need to network more in order to find a job (see > local sysadmin group). When times are good, and there are plenty > of jobs, not enough qualified candidates, people need to network > more in order to fill their positions or find clueful co-workers > (see local sysadmin group). In the in-between times, people who > want to keep up with the field, other local employers, who's got > the best DSL prices and will still give you static IP numbers, > etc. still find the local sysadmin group useful. I think the > moral of the story is that people will figure it out once they > know it exists. > >(4) Other local user groups are a good place to spread the word, and > usually, the organizers of those groups will welcome a chance to > collaborate and maybe even have some joint meetings. Local Linux, > *BSD, and commercial operating system user groups are a very good > place to start. Perlmonger, Webmaster, I.T. Professional, local > ACM or I.E.E.E. chapters are also potential meeting places for new > members. Not everyone in those groups will have an interest in > systems administration, but some will. In general, if the group > already has a focus, such as a programming language, or an > operating system, there won't be any sense that you're "stealing" > their members or trying to dilute their focus. On the contrary. > >(5) Spread the word. Once you have the mailing list and a web site, > get people to find out about it. Mention it in job interviews. > If you have a local technical who deals with different Sysadmins > often, such as a Sun F.E., if you invite him/her to your meetings > and to join the group, word will spread very quickly to different > shops. Announce your meetings to the local Chicago newsgroup. If > your local newspaper has a "Tech. Professionals" column, you might > want to write to the author of that column and ask if you could > get a mention. I did this last week and we got a short blurb in > the Business section of the Washington Post. It's fairly safe to > assume that you are not the only person who is passionate about > getting a local group in Chicago going ... it's just a matter of > getting a critical mass together. Just don't SPAM people. > >(6) Check your ego at the door, before you get started. You are going > to attract a lot of bright, highly-opinionated individuals into a > small space. There can be many conflicting ideas and opinions in > such an environment, and part of your role is going to be that of > moderator / peace-maker. If it turns into the "all about me" > show, you're going to find that your group doesn't grow beyond a > small number of people who already like your ideas. > >(7) Try to balance professional interest, socialization, and fun. > >That's it for now. Again, hopefully, I'll get motivated to put this >up on the web, along with a link to the SAGE locals page that has >plenty of good info >( http://www.usenix.org/sage/locals/ ). > > >_rob_ > >P.S.: Posting signs on the bulletin boards at local technical > colleges, university math, computer science, and engineering > departments, cyber cafes, and other places where a potential > sysadmin might be found "in the wild" are also a great way to get > local people interested. > >Craig Hancock writes: > > I am in the process of starting a local sage group here and I am >curious of how to proceed. I am from > > chicago and if anyone has ever been to chicago they can agree >with me it is a big place. The problem > > that I am having is these factors > > > > 1) Distance > > 2) Convincing syustem admins that this would be beneficial > > 3) Other User groups who deal with one aspect of system >adminstration and only care > > about that aspect. > > > > If anyone has any stories or advice I would greatly appriciate it. > > > > Craig Hancock > >-- >Rob Jenson - Sysadmin and "an eccentric who learned how to > do a couple of cool things along the way" -- Penn & Teller >Web Site: http://www.spotch.com/~robjen >Disclaimer: http://www.spotch.com/~robjen/disclaimer.shtml -- Jess Fine Member Services Manager USENIX ASSOCIATION 2560 Ninth St. Suite 215 Berkeley, CA. 94710 (510)528-8649 - phone (510)548-5738 - fax jess@usenix.org http://www.usenix.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 30 17:14:30 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0V16gP22484 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 17:06:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao02.mgt.cox.net (mtao2.east.cox.net [68.1.17.243]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0V16fh22480 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 17:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from cox.net ([24.21.7.8]) by lakemtao02.mgt.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020131010632.MXJS6996.lakemtao02.mgt.cox.net@cox.net> for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:06:32 -0500 Message-ID: <3C589892.8050504@cox.net> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 17:06:26 -0800 From: Michael Noble User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.7) Gecko/20011226 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] test Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=3 env_From=2 From=2 Subject=many Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk this is only a test From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 30 17:44:25 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0V1bDA22724 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 17:37:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu (delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.209.216]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g0V1bBh22719 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 17:37:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23159 invoked by uid 66145); 31 Jan 2002 01:37:18 -0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:37:18 -0600 From: Craig Hancock To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: Craig Hancock Subject: [SAGE] Enterprise Documentation Message-ID: <20020130193718.J29927@delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=many env_From=2 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hello all I experienced a problem I never encountered today nor not prepared for. I have a NAS device serving as a NFS file share to a bunch of linux 7.2 machine's. I just recentely upgraded to NAS server to a recent release of redhat(7.1 the reason being is because of the company who released the nas device has only tested redhat 7.1 and they use reiserfs). Anyway after upgrading the machine I had the pleasure of switching the machine over to gigabit. During the course of the week I had a lot of performance problems. The load average on the machine would spike to 9.00. I didn't understand why the load was so high it was never high before. I attempted to check 1) Network throughput 2) IO throuput 3) Avaliable memory Then when I didn't know where else to turn I called the company of the product and there response was that since you switch over to gigabit your network bandwidth has increased 10 folds there for the faster the traffic the more instense the proccesor has to grind. After hearing that answer I realize I don't have a deep understanding of hardware. I have been a sysadmin going on 4 years know and I realize I am lacking in 1) Unix kernel heirarchy 2) Device drivers 3) File system structure 4) Newtwork issues Is this stuff you learn from expierence or from a book. I think I have reached a cross roads where howto's and books aren't enough anymore for me to learn. But I am not sure where to go to get a deep understanding of such concepts. I guess I should ask how does one begin to understand such topics? Craig Hancock From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 30 19:03:30 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0V2tWk23238 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:55:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from raptor-qfe0.answerfinancial.com ([208.236.100.231]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g0V2tVh23234 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.2.0.11] by raptor-qfe0.answerfinancial.com via smtpd (for voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) with SMTP; 31 Jan 2002 02:46:27 UT Received: by us-cp-ml02.answerfinancial.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:56:27 -0800 Message-ID: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A1B0@mail-cpk> From: Todd Williams To: "'Craig Hancock'" , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] Enterprise Documentation Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:56:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk You might want to see Curtis Preston's LISA paper about backing up a 6TB Oracle instance. (sorry, don't have the reference handy). I seem to remember him having this problem due to the Ethernet MTU of 1500. 1500 go by fast at Gig speeds, and the CPU get interrupted every time. His E10000 could only push ~300Mbps thru the Gig pipe. He solved this by going to an Alteon Gig enet board with "jumbo frames" of 9000. ....or something like that. Hmmm... I guess I didn't answer your question...but from my non-answer above, I guess my answer would be: "attend USENIX conferences." -Todd Williams > Then when I didn't know where else to turn I called the company of the product and there > response was that since you switch over to gigabit your network bandwidth has increased 10 folds > there for the faster the traffic the more instense the proccesor has to grind. > ... > how does one begin to understand such topics? From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 30 20:34:01 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0V4Q5023775 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:26:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls3.std.com [199.172.62.105]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0V4Q3h23771 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:26:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell.TheWorld.com (root@shell01.TheWorld.com [199.172.62.241]) by TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA02991 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:26:02 -0500 Received: (from adamm@localhost) by shell.TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA10688420 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:26:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200201310426.XAA10688420@shell.TheWorld.com> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Enterprise Documentation To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:26:02 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <20020130193718.J29927@delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu> from "Craig Hancock" at Jan 30, 2002 07:37:18 PM From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=6 env_From=2 From=2 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Craig, Congratulations -- you've discovered the "gotcha" of Gigabit Ethernet! > 1) Unix kernel heirarchy > 2) Device drivers > 3) File system structure > 4) Network issues > > Is this stuff you learn from expierence or from a book. Both, but a book is a good place to start. Actually, you mostly just need to understand how device drivers are part of the kernel, not how to write them, so it's really only three topics. For now. Check out http://menlo.com/folks/adamm/prog-books.html; in particular, McKusick et al. Bach, and Stevens (_TCP/IP Illustrated_). It's worth reading Stevens' _Advanced Programming_ to get a feel for how programs actually make use of kernel services; also, Comer and Tanenbaum give a good overview of networking in general. USENIX offers several good tutorials on these topics, although you may have to go to the Annual Technical Conference as well as LISA to find the right ones. > I think I have reached a cross roads where howto's and books aren't enough > anymore for me to learn. You can always learn from books; you just need to read the right books. The ones I suggested are considered "classics" in our field. Of course, classes are often faster and easier -- but don't write off books. Not yet. One last piece of advice: If you *really* want to understand this stuff, learn to program. In C, using Unix system calls, building TCP client- server programs. You don't have to be good at it, but I think it will give you the deepest and most complete understanding of Unix -- which really means understanding the Unix kernel (and the network protocols implemented therein), and that's the theoretical basis for nearly everything we do in SysAdmin. Good luck, AdamM From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Jan 30 21:52:29 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0V5hhD24108 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:43:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.well.com (smtp.well.com [206.14.209.7]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0V5hfh24104 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from well.com (nobody@well.com [206.14.209.5]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA26864; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:44:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jbd@localhost) by well.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05648; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:43:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:43:34 -0800 (PST) From: Justin Dossey To: Craig Hancock cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Enterprise Documentation In-Reply-To: <20020130193718.J29927@delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=2 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Yes, there is certainly a place where howtos leave off and experience kicks in. It's a pretty wide zone, imho. Think about how to decrease the processor's work in handling the ethernet traffic. On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Craig Hancock wrote: -- :Justin From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 31 04:48:09 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0VCc3126004 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 04:38:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao03.mgt.cox.net (mtao3.east.cox.net [68.1.17.242]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0VCc1h26000 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 04:38:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from cx598905B ([68.10.255.224]) by lakemtao03.mgt.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with SMTP id <20020131123756.SWMX6710.lakemtao03.mgt.cox.net@cx598905B> for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:37:56 -0500 Message-ID: <001a01c1aa54$25cc3800$6401a8c0@hmpt1.va.home.com> Reply-To: "Joe Dial" From: "Joe Dial" To: References: <20020130193718.J29927@delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Enterprise Documentation Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:38:12 -0500 Organization: Dial Consulting Co. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; IP=4 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk From: "Craig Hancock" > Hello all I experienced a problem I never encountered today nor not prepared for. I have a > NAS device serving as a NFS file share to a bunch of linux 7.2 machine's. I just recentely upgraded I would say that books are your best friend for getting information that is complete and correct. Also, if there are local college classes in Computer Science ( Compilers, Operating Systems, Machine Architecture), arranging to audit one or more of them might be handy. Paid Training (Learning Tree, etc, ...) tends to be very specific and may not give the "big picture" feel that you seek. I also want to put in a "me too" on everything that Adam said about the classic books and learning to program. BTW: there is no Linux 7.2 (Not yet, anyway). The current kernel (which RMS and others would say is the only thing that you can "call" Linux) is at release 2.4.X (where X > 17). Virtually every other package included in a modern distribution has its own version. For ease of conversation people often refer to the release level of a popular distribution when describing a problem, but the number is meaningless without the distribution. I would guess you meant "Redhat 7.2" Best of luck in your quest for knowledge. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 31 05:44:25 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0VDZeH26258 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 05:35:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (cliff.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.17]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0VDZdh26254 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 05:35:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from frodo.mcs.anl.gov (frodo.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.8.143]) by mcs.anl.gov (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA44956; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:35:33 -0600 Received: from cliff.mcs.anl.gov (rackow@localhost) by frodo.mcs.anl.gov (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g0VDZXx03747; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:35:33 -0600 Message-Id: <200201311335.g0VDZXx03747@frodo.mcs.anl.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: frodo.mcs.anl.gov: rackow owned process doing -bs To: "'Craig Hancock'" cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Enterprise Documentation Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:35:32 -0600 From: Gene Rackow X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=5 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Lots of this comes from experience and testing. A number of years ago I was working on designing an I/O server system and determining what sort of controllers were needed to match the required specs was difficult. It's been some time so I can't give the specifics, but we had 2 network cards to test by one manufacturer. The cards were but pre-releases. We wanted to put 4 to 6 cards in server. Both cards could saturate the network. Now is where the fun begins. The first card costs about $200, and was fairly stupid by itself, and therefore took about 60% of the CPU to push those packets. You could realisticly only put 2 of these cards into the system before you overloaded the CPU and additional interfaces reduce the performance of all cards installed. The server had plenty of backplane bandwidth to handle the load it was all in the CPU having to handle all the packet formation, checksums, etc. The 2nd card costs about $1500 and took less than 5% of the CPU to saturate the network. This card showed real promise for what we needed to do. With this card, there were not enough slots in the backplane to saturate the CPU on I/O alone and would have been a great thing to put into the machine. The problem is the manufacturer decided that it was not worth taking that card into production since the expected price would limit the sales to the point they didn't think they would recover the design costs. We see some of the same sorts of things happening with cards today. It may very well be the netcard that you are using is on the lower end of performance as well. The company really gave you a very simplified answer, but there is probably much more going on than just the faster net card. With the faster net, you probably changed the load, you are probably doing more NFS processing as well. This would cause more of a load on the CPU. This may also change the way the disks are being accessed and therefore more waiting for disks to spin, etc. --Gene > >> Then when I didn't know where else to turn I called the company of the >product and there >> response was that since you switch over to gigabit your network bandwidth >has increased 10 folds >> there for the faster the traffic the more instense the proccesor has to >grind. >> ... >> how does one begin to understand such topics? > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 31 07:51:41 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0VFhlD26985 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:43:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from q4.quik.com (q4.quik.com [216.176.28.1]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0VFhjh26981 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:43:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from biz.compata.com (IDENT:root@compata.com [216.176.39.9]) by q4.quik.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g0VFjIk138996 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:45:19 -0800 Received: from biz.compata.com by biz.compata.com (Linux 2.2.14) with ESMTP (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA17447 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:37:02 -0800 Message-Id: <200201311537.HAA17447@biz.compata.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.3 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Enterprise Documentation In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:35:32 CST." <200201311335.g0VDZXx03747@frodo.mcs.anl.gov> X-message-flag: Did you know Outlook is junk? X-Face: $?&5f7w4GjUJOb-[FmngebA}V`5Dv)QEdHg|d%mytVRm]'o}*{J6:PP%(LfN LmOcb#>"^wDF*|ZzuS??S*vLH[.miV( X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=7 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Gene Rackow wrote: >The company really gave you a very simplified answer,... and >The 2nd card costs about $1500 and took less than 5% of the CPU to >saturate the network. This card showed real promise for what we >needed to do. With this card, there were not enough slots in the >backplane to saturate the CPU on I/O alone and would have been a >great thing to put into the machine. The problem is the manufacturer >decided that it was not worth taking that card into production since >the expected price would limit the sales to the point they didn't think >they would recover the design costs. It looks to me as though the card manufacturer gave you a very simplified answer, as well. If you were able to test the card, it had already been designed. Those costs were already sunk, so selling some of the cards could only have reduced the loss. Of course, that ignores the cost of packaging and marketing, among other things. -- Dave Close, Compata, Costa Mesa CA +1 714 434 7359 dave@compata.com dhclose@alumni.caltech.edu "..the last seven decades of the twentieth century will be characterized in history as the dark ages of theoretical physics." -- Carver Mead From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 31 10:15:02 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0VI6Ue28483 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:06:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mdahub.mda.ca (mdahub.mda.ca [142.73.130.152]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0VI6Sh28478 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:06:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from msxyvr1.mda.ca (msxyvr1 [142.73.131.48]) by mdahub.mda.ca (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id g0VI6Nv12745; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:06:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by exchange.mda.ca with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:06:23 -0800 Message-ID: From: John LLOYD To: Craig Hancock Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] Enterprise Documentation Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:06:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=3 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > From: Craig Hancock [mailto:chancock@delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu] > Anyway after upgrading the > machine I had the pleasure of switching the machine over to > gigabit. During the course of the week > I had a lot of performance problems. The load average on the > machine would spike to 9.00. I didn't > understand why the load was so high it was never high before. You didn't say much about the observed performance problems. If the throughput was lower, or the file access failed, or what? Were big file transfers working and little ones getting slower? The load average is not a symptom, it is an observation....be wary of trying to "fix" non-problems. Really, do your users care about the load average? No, they want fast file access. > I attempted to check > > 1) Network throughput > 2) IO throuput > 3) Avaliable memory > A good list! > ... and I realize I am lacking in > > 1) Unix kernel heirarchy > 2) Device drivers > 3) File system structure > 4) Newtwork issues > Another good list! You are ahead of a lot of people because you have an understanding of what some of the potential issues are. Sort of like you know what it is you don't know. Nobody necessary learns all about these things first---and then decides they are ready to solve problems. Most of us learn from the same situation you find yourself in---a problem is discovered and you have to dig into things to fix it. > Is this stuff you learn from expierence or from a book. I > think I have reached a cross roads > where howto's and books aren't enough anymore for me to > learn. Somebody somewhere is always writing a new book... Some of the book on O'Reilly's list are good: High Performance Computing, by Dowd and Severance. Some of the stuff Sun publishes on Solaris (Adrian Cockcroft), and Oracle (standard docs plus some of the Osborne titles) even if you don't use Oracle they tell you lots about how to configure things. A good one, hard to find, is The Art of Computer Systems Performance by Jain. Experience with other operating systems helps provide some context (linux versus solaris is not quite the same thing as comparing linux and windows 95....both comparisons have something to tell you. Of course when I say windows 95 vs linux I mean as a personal system.) > to go to get a deep understanding of such concepts. I guess I > should ask how does one begin > to understand such topics? > The School of Hard Knocks. No address available. -John From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 31 10:46:59 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0VIdXn29006 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:39:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0VIdWh29002 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:39:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from cx710799-b.backupcentral.com ([67.113.126.10]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GQT005WKFTUD5@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:39:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:31:01 -0800 From: "W. Curtis Preston" Subject: RE: [SAGE] Enterprise Documentation In-reply-to: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A1B0@mail-cpk> X-Sender: curtis.lists/backupcentral.com@pop3.norton.antivirus To: Todd Williams , "'Craig Hancock'" , sage-members@usenix.org Message-id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020131095103.034c3d20@pop3.norton.antivirus> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=5 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=4 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Curtis Preston? That guy's an idiot! ;) Seriously, though, Craig. I think you did the right thing. Some other answers are very good. You can begin to understand these things by reading internals books. I would agree that knowing how to program would help as well. I'd like to discuss the issue at hand, though. First, let me clarify what I think the vendors said. I wouldn't agree that simply putting a GbE NIC on your Linux box will increase processing. Attempting to USE that GbE pipe definitely would, though. Perhaps your 100 Mb connection that you had before was not coming even close to doing the job, and once you put the GbE NIC up there, your applications all said, "Finally!" and started filling the GbE pipe. That paper was so mid 90s. ;) You can see it at http://www.backupcentral.com/e10k-lisa98.html , but a lot of things have changed since then. The new answer is no longer jumbo frames, although that could help. The new answer are hardware-accelerated GbE NICs that remove the processing off of the host CPU and onto the card. Sun, Intel, and Alacritech all have such NICs. There may be others. http://www.intel.com/network/connectivity/products/pro1000giga.htm http://www.sun.com/products-n-solutions/hardware/docs/Network_Connectivity/Sun_GigaSwift_Ethernet/index.html http://www.alacritech.com/html/1000series.html At 06:56 PM 1/30/2002 -0800, Todd Williams wrote: >You might want to see Curtis Preston's LISA paper about backing up a 6TB >Oracle instance. >(sorry, don't have the reference handy). I seem to remember him having this >problem due to the Ethernet MTU of 1500. >1500 go by fast at Gig speeds, and the CPU get interrupted every time. His >E10000 could only push ~300Mbps thru the Gig pipe. >He solved this by going to an Alteon Gig enet board with "jumbo frames" of >9000. > >....or something like that. > >Hmmm... I guess I didn't answer your question...but from my non-answer >above, I guess my answer would be: "attend USENIX conferences." > >-Todd Williams > > > Then when I didn't know where else to turn I called the company of the >product and there > > response was that since you switch over to gigabit your network bandwidth >has increased 10 folds > > there for the faster the traffic the more instense the proccesor has to >grind. > > ... > > how does one begin to understand such topics? From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 31 12:17:04 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0VK8Lc00394 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:08:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls2.std.com [199.172.62.104]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0VK8Jh00390 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:08:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell.TheWorld.com (root@shell01.TheWorld.com [199.172.62.241]) by TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24111 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:08:18 -0500 Received: (from adamm@localhost) by shell.TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA10736205 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:08:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200201312008.PAA10736205@shell.TheWorld.com> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Enterprise Documentation To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:08:18 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020131095103.034c3d20@pop3.norton.antivirus> from "W. Curtis Preston" at Jan 31, 2002 10:31:01 AM From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=3 From=4 Subject=10 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk "W. Curtis Preston" wrote: > The new answer is no longer jumbo frames, although that could help. The > new answer is hardware-accelerated GbE NICs that remove the processing > off of the host CPU and onto the card. There's also work on using Fiber Channel (and Virtual Interface) underneath traditional network protocols. This not only reduces the interrupt load the CPU has to deal with (FC can do 64MB per transfer) (from the kernel's perspective), but some of the really hot research eliminates copying the data from user space to kernel space, which is another big performance bugaboo. Combine this with 10Gb Ethernet and wow! AdamM From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 31 12:23:32 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0VKGIk00469 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:16:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.in.starshine.org (postfix@antares.in.starshine.org [216.240.40.177] (may be forged)) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0VKGGh00464 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mars.starshine.org (sirius.starshine.org [216.240.40.164]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A88769798; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 13:16:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jimd@localhost) by mars.starshine.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA02029; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:08:04 -0800 From: Jim Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:08:04 -0800 To: "David R. Linn" Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] sniffing switched nets Message-ID: <20020131120804.B1958@mars.starshine.org> References: <200201251623.KAA01500@mailhost1.vuse.vanderbilt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200201251623.KAA01500@mailhost1.vuse.vanderbilt.edu>; from drl@vuse.vanderbilt.edu on Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 10:23:47AM -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=10 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 10:23:47AM -0600, David R. Linn wrote: > A few meetings ago (perhaps the ATC in San Diego), I seem to recall > that some attendees demonstrated that you can sniff switched nets by > collecting and then posting a set of passwords that they had captured > from the switched TTY room net. I believe that they wrote up their > technique, maybe for a WIP, maybe for a later conference. > The fellow teaching our new InfoSec class was asking me for ideas of > things to cover and I mentioned this incident in the context of > convincing people to use crypto for anything they want secured. He > asked me for a pointer and a quick look at the USENIX site didn't > provide me with one so I'm turning to the collective. > If this is not all a sign of premature senility, could someone point > me at that writeup. > David Search freshmeat (http://www.freshmeat.net/ ) on the term "ettercap" for one tool that will do this. In fact searching on the terms: "sniff switch" returns a list of several, including one called angst and another called smit. More creative searches, and following these things and seeding these terms into Google will probably net some articles and web pages that compare the tools and techniques. -- Jim Dennis From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 31 12:24:08 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g0VKGxO00497 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:16:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from gwyn.tux.org (ident-user@gwyn.tux.org [207.96.122.8]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g0VKGvh00493 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:16:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jsdy@localhost) by gwyn.tux.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA19119; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:16:30 -0500 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:16:30 -0500 From: Joseph S D Yao To: John LLOYD Cc: Craig Hancock , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Enterprise Documentation Message-ID: <20020131151630.S3175@gwyn.tux.org> Mail-Followup-To: John LLOYD , Craig Hancock , sage-members@usenix.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from jal@mda.ca on Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:06:22AM -0800 X-Accepted-File-Formats: ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=153 env_From=2 From=3 Subject=11 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:06:22AM -0800, John LLOYD wrote: ... > A good one, hard to find, is The Art of Computer Systems Performance by > Jain. ... http://www.wiley.com/Corporate/Website/Objects/Products/0,9049,513199,00.html http://www.wiley.com/Corporate/Website/Objects/Products/0,9049,89121,00.html [I don't know the difference; $90] http://www.bookpool.com/.x/db75m7s5w0/sm/0471503363 [Out of stock; $76.95] http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471503363/ref=pd_sim_books/104-9808665-8732763 [New, $90; used, $65; re-sold new: $79.94 and up; used: $65 and up; bundled with The Practical Performance Analyst, $135.95] See also: http://www.netlab.ohio-state.edu/~jain/ See also: The Practical Performance Analyst: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/059512674X/qid=977123507/sr=1-1/107-9468142-8553361 http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=059512674X http://www.perfdynamics.com/ http://www.iuniverse.com/marketplace/bookstore/book_detail.asp?isbn=0%2D595%2D12674%2DX http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=059512674X&vm= See also: http://dmoz.org/Computers/Performance_and_Capacity/Capacity_Planning/Books/ -- /*********************************************************************\ ** ** Joe Yao jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao ** \*********************************************************************/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 31 17:09:23 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g110shH03695 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:54:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from artful.grumblesmurf.net (artful.grumblesmurf.net [208.187.215.126]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g110sgh03691 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from darrell@localhost) by artful.grumblesmurf.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) id g110stn18731; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:54:55 -0800 (PST) To: "W. Curtis Preston" Cc: Todd Williams , "'Craig Hancock'" , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Enterprise Documentation References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020131095103.034c3d20@pop3.norton.antivirus> From: Darrell Fuhriman Date: 31 Jan 2002 16:54:55 -0800 In-Reply-To: "W. Curtis Preston"'s message of "Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:31:01 -0800" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Canyonlands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=2 From=3 Subject=14 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk "W. Curtis Preston" writes: > although that could help. The new answer are hardware-accelerated GbE > NICs that remove the processing off of the host CPU and onto the card. > Sun, Intel, and Alacritech all have such NICs. There may be others. Certainly on my E450's we pumped over 60MB/s through our Gigabit doing backups. It's also important to crank up the TCP window size to be as large as possible at those speeds. Darrell From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Jan 31 21:34:50 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g115PWM05511 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from dpbox.dhs.org (dsl-216-227-100-85.telocity.com [216.227.100.85]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g115PUh05507 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:25:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from vector.usa.net ([192.168.0.50]) by dpbox.dhs.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g114hPe20752; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:43:26 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020131233511.00aed400@pop.netaddress.com> X-Sender: dpuryear@pop.netaddress.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 23:35:27 -0600 To: AEleen Frisch , sage-members@usenix.org From: Dustin Puryear Subject: Re: [SAGE] Re: Looking for a detailed comparison, Linux vs. NT Cc: sharan@kalwani.com In-Reply-To: <3C471CB3.7090108@lorentzian.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 01:49 PM 1/17/2002 -0500, AEleen Frisch wrote: >there's a lot of religious sniping and banter to wade through to find it. >The exchanges are also unfortunately marred by the fact that the two sides >were using significantly different vocabularies and at times used the same >terms to mean different things. Neither side seemed to really understand >the internals of both OS's, and they also clearly had very different >experiences in terms of computing environments and server deployment >expectations. Nevertheless, they should prove useful to any serious comparison: > >www.win2000mag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=4500 >www.win2000mag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=4502 >www.win2000mag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=5048 >www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=1999-04-30-015-05-PS I'd like to see some technical articles detailing the advantages and disadvantages of Win2k and UNIX in relation to one another. While Win2k seems to be mostly NT code, I have read about some substantial improvements in overall OS functionality and enterprise readiness. For example, can we now say that Win2k Datacenter has helped Microsoft close the SMP gap between NT and UNIX? Naturally, I can only give so much weight to the Microsoft web site concerning this information. Regards, Dustin --- Dustin Puryear Information Systems Contractor http://members.telocity.com/~dpuryear PGP Key for dpuryear@usa.net : http://www.us.pgp.net In the beginning the Universe was created. This has been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 5 15:13:27 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g15N5fb20578 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:05:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from frogbog.baltimorons.org (IDENT:root@leapfrog.baltimorons.org [216.181.177.189]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g15N5dh20573 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jon@localhost) by frogbog.baltimorons.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g15N2oX19569; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:02:50 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:02:50 -0500 From: "J. Lasser" To: Old Bay SAGE Subject: [SAGE] Old Bay SAGE Meeting ***NEXT*** Tuesday, February 12th Message-ID: <20020205230249.GA19556@frogbog.baltimorons.org> Mail-Followup-To: Old Bay SAGE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *** PLEASE NOTE THE NEW MEETING LOCATION *** Date: Tuesday, February 12th, 2002 Time: Doors open at 7:15 pm; meeting begins 8:00 pm sharp. Place: 3500 Boston Street, Suite 226, Baltimore MD 21202 (AmNet Computer Systems). See below for directions. RSVP: Helpful, but not mandatory. Please mail me at if you expect to attend the meeting. Agenda: 1. Round-the-table introductions 2. The resume exchange: Who's hiring/who's looking for work? Bring resumes if you're looking for work; bring business cards or job ads if you're hiring. 3. Guest Speakers: Special Agent John Hair of the FBI will be speaking. He will talk about how the FBI Baltimore's Computer Crime Squad can respond to an incident, what to expect (or not to expect) from the FBI and the purpose of the InfraGard program. John Hair has been on the FBI Baltimore's Computer Crime Squad since February 2000. He has a technical background both in the private sector and in the military. Prior to joining the Bureau, he was a Systems Administrator, Test Engineer and Project Engineer for an electronics manufacturing company. John Hair received his degree at the U.S. Naval Academy and was also a pilot for the U.S. Navy for several years. 4. Adjournment to local resturaunt/bar: Since Canton is just about shut down on a Tuesday night, as we discovered after the January meeting, we will be moving to the Brewer's Art, at 1106 N. Charles St. (This is something of a hike, admittedly, but it was the expressed preference at the previous meeting.) DIRECTIONS to AmNet: The entrance for 3500 Boston Street is on the side of the building, on Baylis Street. There is a call box; if there is no note on the door and it is not open, call up to AmNet and somebody will ring you in. Make a right when entering the building, stairs are on the left after you go through the door. AmNet is on the second floor, to the left after the stairs. =46rom NORTH or SOUTH via I-95: =20 Take I-95 towards Baltimore. Take Boston St. (Exit 57, north of the tunnel). Head west (left on the ramp) on Boston Street approximately 3/4 of a mile. Turn right onto Baylis Street and park. =46rom the NORTH via I-83: Take I-83 south towards Baltimore. I-83 ends on President Street. Make a left onto Fleet Street. Past Fell's Point, make a right onto Boston Street. Follow Boston Street to Baylis, make a left onto Baylis, and park. To The Brewer's Art from AmNet: Head West (away from 95) on Boston St, making the left at Fleet St. Remain on Fleet St. through Fell's Point until it ends at President St. Make a right onto President St., which will turn into 83 N. Take the first exit, at Chase St., and make a left at the top of the ramp. Charles St. is the fourth cross-street, and the Brewer's Art is several doors up, on the left side of the street. Its address, once again, is 1106 N. Charles St. --=20 Jon Lasser=09 Home: jon@lasser.org | Work:jon@cluestickconsulting.com http://www.tux.org/~lasser/ | http://www.cluestickconsulting.com Buy my book, _Think_Unix_! http://www.tux.org/~lasser/think-unix/ --OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQCVAwUBPGBkmSsJJQQiCQ0lAQHm0gP9HuHfRVUwR6uS6mmQp9x3dbNtUObE6D/M xUuUTIMN+OjNICFJUdm44RcW2FWnTQQIZgfOTDQDI4K1s+W1bpBbtkJQBGUcnpnf RojZodfYcpy5Sj4xdHRGaxcHORn9bTkDcoCCkpgPLt6weubtCFLJ2vZlbUgPfDtT 6LRDtNJb1vg= =1sH5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 5 20:38:11 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g164aqv08438 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:36:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from noh.ucsd.edu (noh.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.100]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g164aoh08434 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:36:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from paw@localhost) by noh.ucsd.edu (8.11.5/8.10.1) id g164aoP11895 for sage-members@sage.org; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:36:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:36:50 -0800 (PST) From: Pat Wilson Message-Id: <200202060436.g164aoP11895@noh.ucsd.edu> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] OS X backup to CD-R? X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=2 From=2 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I've got this very nice new iceBook running Mac OS X. It would seem the obvious thing to back it up to the built-in CD/R (I'm thinking "multi-tape", and burning when it's time to change media). I can't, however, get /sbin/dump to talk to the CD/R device. Has anyone gotten this to work? Failing that, how _are_ you backing up? I've found something called hfspax, but am not really sure it'll do (and it's a binary)... Thanks. --paw From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 5 23:40:58 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g167dxY12068 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 23:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj1-3-4-9.securesites.net (sj1-3-4-9.securesites.net [192.220.127.202]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g167duh12064 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 23:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 74361 invoked by uid 18647); 6 Feb 2002 07:39:56 -0000 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 23:39:56 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Re: Looking for a detailed comparison, Linux vs. NT Message-ID: <20020205233956.A74253@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <3C471CB3.7090108@lorentzian.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020131233511.00aed400@pop.netaddress.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020131233511.00aed400@pop.netaddress.com>; from dpuryear@usa.net on Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:35:27PM -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=3 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:35:27PM -0600, Dustin Puryear wrote: > ... > I'd like to see some technical articles detailing the advantages and > disadvantages of Win2k and UNIX in relation to one another. While Win2k > seems to be mostly NT code, I have read about some substantial improvements > in overall OS functionality and enterprise readiness. Yeah. for example, they stole BSD code to improve their networking. Big help right there :-> From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 6 04:17:05 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g16CF7U13460 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 04:15:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.clickvision.com (home.clickvision.com [64.50.149.39]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g16CF3h13456 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified OK) for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 04:15:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from ptower.office.clickvision.com (ptower.office.clickvision.com [192.168.1.3]) (authenticated bits=0) by www.clickvision.com (8.12.2/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g16CF1b8004511 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:15:03 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:15:01 -0500 Subject: [SAGE] OS X backup to CD-R? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v480) From: "Peter M. Jansson" To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <200202061000.g16A01v12815@usenix.org> Message-Id: <2519295E-1AFB-11D6-BC01-0005027BB693@clickvision.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.480) X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; IP=0 env_From=0 From=0 Subject=0 Message-ID=0 Received=0 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Backup on OS X is a problem at the moment. The Unix backup tools (dump, tar) won't backup the resource forks of files on HFS+ filesystems, while there are very few reliable Mac tools that will get all of the Unix system files (/lib, /bin, /usr/bin) which are normally obscured from the view of the Mac user. The two options of which I'm aware that will work are: - Create a disk image of your files using the DiskCopy program, and then burn this file to CD/R (this will not work incredibly well if the image exceeds the size of a CD/R, but if you only put stuff in your home directory, and your home directory fits on a CD/R, this is a good option) - Use the commercial backup tool Retrospect from Dantz Development (Dantz has been working on this tool to make sure it gets all the data from all the files) This article: http://archive.develooper.com/macosx@perl.org/msg00948.html addresses the salient points of backing up under Mac OS X. It's slightly out-of-date, but it's correct with regard to usage of hfspax and ditto (for ditto, make sure you use the -rsrcFork option). Sources for ditto and hfspax may be available from http://www.opensource.apple.com (free registration required), but I couldn' t get to the CVS archive right now to verify that. Unfortunately, the bottom line is that at this stage in Mac OS X's life, it doesn't come with a good backup solution. Pete. On Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 05:00 AM, Pat Wilson wrote: > I've got this very nice new iceBook running Mac OS X. It would seem the > obvious > thing to back it up to the built-in CD/R (I'm thinking "multi-tape", and > burning when it's time to change media). I can't, however, get /sbin/dump > to talk to the CD/R device. > > Has anyone gotten this to work? Failing that, how _are_ you backing up? > I've found something called hfspax, but am not really sure it'll do (and > it's a binary)... From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 6 05:30:19 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g16DTMW13773 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 05:29:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from porfidio.atstake.com (porfidio.atstake.com [63.168.6.70]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g16DTLh13769 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 05:29:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3276 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 13:33:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cam-relay.atstake.com) (10.1.1.30) by porfidio.atstake.com with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 13:33:22 -0000 Received: from juarez.atstake.com (juarez.atstake.com [10.1.33.15]) by cam-relay.atstake.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5087922818 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:28:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from juarez.atstake.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by juarez.atstake.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58496275C for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:27:12 +0000 (US/Eastern) To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] OS X backup to CD-R? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 06 Feb 2002 07:15:01 EST." <2519295E-1AFB-11D6-BC01-0005027BB693@clickvision.com> Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 08:27:12 -0500 From: Dan Geer Message-Id: <20020206132712.B58496275C@juarez.atstake.com> X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; IP=0 env_From=0 From=0 Subject=0 Message-ID=0 Received=0 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Retrospect 5.0, http://www.dantz.com, available now in "preview" (read, beta) form. Requires MacOS 10.1.2. Retrospect is the trusted name in MacOS backups, FWIW. --dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 6 08:35:50 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g16GYjg10406 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:34:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from minbar.megacity.org (IDENT:root@minbar.megacity.org [64.71.143.244]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g16GYgh10369 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified FAIL) for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:34:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.15.49.168] ([63.240.68.244]) (authenticated bits=0) by minbar.megacity.org (8.12.2/8.12.2/MegacityAntiSpam) with ESMTP id g16GYfe2018225 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:34:42 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: dredd@mail.megacity.org (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020206132712.B58496275C@juarez.atstake.com> References: <20020206132712.B58496275C@juarez.atstake.com> Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:34:34 -0500 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Derek Balling Subject: Re: [SAGE] OS X backup to CD-R? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 8:27 AM -0500 2/6/02, Dan Geer wrote: >Retrospect 5.0, http://www.dantz.com, available now in >"preview" (read, beta) form. Requires MacOS 10.1.2. >Retrospect is the trusted name in MacOS backups, FWIW. I'll second the Retrospect suggestion. :) D -- +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | dredd@megacity.org | "Thou art the ruins of the noblest man | | Derek J. Balling | That ever lived in the tide of times. | | | Woe to the hand that shed this costly | | | blood" - Julius Caesar Act 3, Scene 1 | +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 6 14:29:48 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g16MQTG02714 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:26:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.93]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g16MQRh02710 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from notatla.demon.co.uk ([194.222.156.169]) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 16YaWG-00023Z-0Z for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 22:26:25 +0000 Received: by notatla.demon.co.uk (Postfix, from userid 500) id C4C4546C8; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 22:27:07 +0000 (GMT) X-hashcash-expected: ant.notatla.demon.co.uk 20 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] merging of NIS domains Message-Id: <20020206222707.C4C4546C8@notatla.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 22:27:07 +0000 (GMT) From: ant@notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hello, I'm a new usenix-sage member. I have been looking for documents describing mergers between different NIS domains. We are assessing the task of merging domains with their own history into a single huge domain. What I've found so far doesn't describe anything like that. The Ganymede web site is located at http://www.arlut.utexas.edu/gash2/ but seems on a quick read more aimed at maintaining directories once you have them organised. Examination of the current passwd maps shows many clashes of name, UID and other significant fields. Resolving these (automatically where possible) and producing a table of old values and new values is a crucial early step. Listing the noncontroversial ones is easy but some accounts are going to have to change. on foo john:x:5000:20:J Doe:/home/doej:/bin/sh on bar jane:x:5000:20:J Doe:/home/doej:/bin/sh We have tentatively allocated a priority to each domain and host so that which account survives unchanged is decided - then the offending field or fields want allocating in accord with a convention. After the clashes are resolved the aim is to press everybody into the convention. We have the beginnings of this in a perl script but are interested in the snags we may be approaching. We've found a range of unused UIDs that will be the destination values for any changes. We haven't looked at other maps yet - although we'd hope that the hosts maps would be simple. UID-dependent software is being sought out with a cluestick but some may come to our attention quite urgently quite late. Then there are issues in the changeover - including changing UID:GID of appropriate files. Backups, testing, correctly restoring older backups if necessary.... We also have clearcase with hard links to directories (yuk) so we're expecting to write our own recursive chown to change existing files guided by an input file. Different kinds of Unix are involved - mostly HP-UX and Solaris. We've spotted things like nobody & lp having different UIDs. There are similar things for GIDs. Red Hat's group-per-user scheme will probably have to go as we expect widespread sharing of home directories via NFS - but I'm not certain of that. At least we have dodged the Windows integration so we might confuse only one issue at a time. Suggestions and pointers to docs/tools are very welcome. Thanks. -- ############################################################## # Antonomasia ant notatla.demon.co.uk # # See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/ # ############################################################## From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 6 17:40:11 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g171YR106163 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 17:34:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from noh.ucsd.edu (noh.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.100]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g171YQh06159 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 17:34:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from paw@localhost) by noh.ucsd.edu (8.11.5/8.10.1) id g171YPc28523 for sage-members@sage.org; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 17:34:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 17:34:25 -0800 (PST) From: Pat Wilson Message-Id: <200202070134.g171YPc28523@noh.ucsd.edu> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Thanks! Re: OS X backup to CD-R? X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=3 env_From=3 From=4 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Dantz' Retrospect seems to fit the bill for now - thanks to all who replied. BTW, the iceBook burner doesn't seem to like el-cheapo CD-Rs - I'm finding that only the "blue" or "black" ones actually burn. --paw From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 6 23:28:43 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g177OLX08695 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:24:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from spliff.LuftHans.com (cpe-24-221-1-115.az.sprintbbd.net [24.221.1.115]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g177OIh08691 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:24:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by spliff.LuftHans.com with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1 (Debian)) id 16Yj25-00065s-00 for ; Thu, 07 Feb 2002 00:31:49 -0700 Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 00:31:49 -0700 (MST) From: "der.hans" X-X-Sender: lufthans@spliff.LuftHans.com To: Goetter des Netzes Subject: [SAGE] arcserve and *NIX Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk moin, moin, testing arcserve for a backup solution at work. We've got to backup novell and nt as well as debian and solaris. I generally won't admit to knowing anything about m$ and this is my first exposure to novell. I've got somebody for that stuff. The server is running on novell. We're seeing really poor speed backing up Linux ( debian and RedHat ) and solaris. At best we're seeing 3MB/min. It's like sucking all the rice in china through a straw. Using scp to copy stuff between the Linux boxen goes much quicker ( I forget what I was getting, but it worked well ). ftp between the Linux boxen is doing 90MB/min. ftp to the novell box is getting 60MB/min. CA says it's all working for them. They've got log files, but aren't able to find the bottleneck. They have buffer size and other options to their client. Increasing those was causing the client to die. Updating to a newer arcserve release on the server fixed that, but the speed is still the same. Has anybody else used novell to backup *NIXen? Have you seen this type of problem? Did you solve it? If so, how? The probs occur when copying the filesystem or one largish file. We're on a switched 100 network. arcserve pointed out some probs with novell and full-duplex, so we dropped it down to half. Same probs. I'd like to avoid having one backup setup for *NIXen and another for the other OSen. Suggestions gratefully accepted :). ciao, der.hans -- # http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/ http://www.DevelopOnline.com/ # I'm not anti-social, I'm pro-individual. - der.hans From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 7 02:04:36 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g179x9t09680 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 01:59:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from pop.snert.net (mail.snert.net [195.5.195.101]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g179x2h09675 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 01:59:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from snert.com ([193.41.72.241]) by pop.snert.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g17ATAU4032529 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 11:29:10 +0100 Message-ID: <3C624FDF.3010902@snert.com> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 10:58:55 +0100 From: Anthony Howe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sage Subject: [SAGE] Feedback on IX Europe, Lambda Net, NavLink, etc... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Looking for feedback (good, bad, and ugly). We are looking into the idea of moving our machine room into one of the data centre providers within the Sophia-Antipolis area, South of France between Cannes and Nice. Currently the ones we are looking at are: IX Europe Lambda Net NavLink I'm looking for feedback from other European sys.admins that might have some experience with these firms (they have data centres across Europe). Suggestions about others that might be in our area are welcomed too. -- Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus "Microsoft (cough, sputter, spit, !@#$%) ..." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 7 03:02:57 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g17AwSZ10105 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 02:58:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from pop.snert.net (mail.snert.net [195.5.195.101]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g17AwMh10101 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 02:58:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from snert.com ([193.41.72.241]) by pop.snert.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g17BSVU4000637 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 12:28:31 +0100 Message-ID: <3C625DC8.2020903@snert.com> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:58:16 +0100 From: Anthony Howe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sage Subject: [SAGE] Recommendatison for routers doing VPN, ISDN, and ADSL? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=2 From=2 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I'm interested in suggestions for routers that do: ADSL and VPN (IPSec, 3DES) with ISDN backup or any other router that has a primary high-speed interface with ISDN backup interface and supports VPN. Most of the routers I've seen so far as those that have only one interface type. Given the number of manufacturers and models, I could spend weeks hip deep in product blurbs, hype, and sales pitches. -- Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus "Microsoft (cough, sputter, spit, !@#$%) ..." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 7 05:46:20 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g17DcJg10992 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:38:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntmail.gamespy.com ([207.199.1.98]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g17DcHh10988 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [68.15.171.35] by ntmail.captured.com (NTMail 5.06.0016/AX0191.00.1ce0e1da) with ESMTP id veamohaa for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:38:13 -0800 From: "Jerald Sheets" To: "'der.hans'" , "'Goetter des Netzes'" Subject: RE: [SAGE] arcserve and *NIX Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:39:46 -0600 Message-ID: <000501c1afdc$e8b3adc0$0a00a8c0@ranch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We use a "staging area" scenario. If you've got a great deal of empty space on your Netware server that the backup is occurring on, just chunk your nightly incremental into that scratch space, back it up to tape, check to make sure the backup is done via a script or something, then nuke the scratch. You'll see that the disk->disk transfer rate will make life a lot easier, and your tape server can take it's time to spool off the night's backup. Now, if you're running tens or hundreds of gigs nightly, then perhaps something more along the lines of Tivoli Storage Manager would be a better idea. We backup and archive around 250GB nightly, and our time to stage area is about 3 hours. Everything goes to stage at that point, then the only machine concerned with the backup is our backup server. Keeps the production boxes' I/O and CPU hot for only a short period of time, and then takes it's time with reclamation, spooling, etc. Do you have a library like a 3494? What's your main strategy? One of the other things we did to REALLY improve our backup speed was the introduction of a "backup network". It's an all-fiber private network that connects all production boxes. The backups going over a private network (and not production) decreased our backup time from about 6 hours to just under two, and took the load off the main hospital network. --JMS -----Original Message----- From: owner-sage-members@usenix.org [mailto:owner-sage-members@usenix.org] On Behalf Of der.hans Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 1:32 AM To: Goetter des Netzes Subject: [SAGE] arcserve and *NIX moin, moin, testing arcserve for a backup solution at work. We've got to backup novell and nt as well as debian and solaris. I generally won't admit to knowing anything about m$ and this is my first exposure to novell. I've got somebody for that stuff. The server is running on novell. We're seeing really poor speed backing up Linux ( debian and RedHat ) and solaris. At best we're seeing 3MB/min. It's like sucking all the rice in china through a straw. Using scp to copy stuff between the Linux boxen goes much quicker ( I forget what I was getting, but it worked well ). ftp between the Linux boxen is doing 90MB/min. ftp to the novell box is getting 60MB/min. CA says it's all working for them. They've got log files, but aren't able to find the bottleneck. They have buffer size and other options to their client. Increasing those was causing the client to die. Updating to a newer arcserve release on the server fixed that, but the speed is still the same. Has anybody else used novell to backup *NIXen? Have you seen this type of problem? Did you solve it? If so, how? The probs occur when copying the filesystem or one largish file. We're on a switched 100 network. arcserve pointed out some probs with novell and full-duplex, so we dropped it down to half. Same probs. I'd like to avoid having one backup setup for *NIXen and another for the other OSen. Suggestions gratefully accepted :). ciao, der.hans -- # http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/ http://www.DevelopOnline.com/ # I'm not anti-social, I'm pro-individual. - der.hans From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 7 13:37:02 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g17LXQD16033 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj1-3-4-9.securesites.net (sj1-3-4-9.securesites.net [192.220.127.202]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g17LXOh16027 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:33:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 4736 invoked by uid 18647); 7 Feb 2002 21:33:23 -0000 Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:33:23 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: Sage Subject: Re: [SAGE] Recommendatison for routers doing VPN, ISDN, and ADSL? Message-ID: <20020207133323.A4460@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: Sage References: <3C625DC8.2020903@snert.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3C625DC8.2020903@snert.com>; from achowe@snert.com on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 11:58:16AM +0100 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=2 From=2 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 11:58:16AM +0100, Anthony Howe wrote: > I'm interested in suggestions for routers that do: > > ADSL and VPN (IPSec, 3DES) with ISDN backup > > or any other router that has a primary high-speed interface with ISDN > backup interface and supports VPN. > > Most of the routers I've seen so far as those that have only one > interface type. eg: you're looking at the cheap end. I'm pretty sure the cisco modular routers like 2524 would handle this stuff. But you may have to go even higher-end. Or, you could save your money, buy a "cheaper" router with T1+ISDN, and spend $1000 on a standalone box to handle the VPN side of things. It's probably better to offload that burden from your router anyway. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 7 14:35:19 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g17MYfd17037 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:34:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from raq1.mylinuxisp.com (raq1.mylinuxisp.com [216.39.194.20]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g17MYeh17033 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:34:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.coats.org (www.coats.org [204.251.209.68]) by raq1.mylinuxisp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16606; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:38:56 -0600 Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:38:56 -0600 (CST) From: Jack Coats X-X-Sender: To: Anthony Howe cc: Sage Subject: Re: [SAGE] Recommendatison for routers doing VPN, ISDN, and ADSL? In-Reply-To: <3C625DC8.2020903@snert.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=1 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=2 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk at work we use Cisco 2600 with 2 cards. One card goes to the CSU/DSU for the T1, and the other goes to the ISDN/BRU. The builtin ethernet comes out the back to our internal network. We are not doing VPNs over it. I hope that helps! On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Anthony Howe wrote: >>I'm interested in suggestions for routers that do: >> >> ADSL and VPN (IPSec, 3DES) with ISDN backup >> >>or any other router that has a primary high-speed interface with ISDN >>backup interface and supports VPN. >> >>Most of the routers I've seen so far as those that have only one >>interface type. Given the number of manufacturers and models, I could >>spend weeks hip deep in product blurbs, hype, and sales pitches. >> >> From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 7 15:07:23 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g17N6lx17547 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:06:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls4.std.com [199.172.62.106]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g17N6jh17543 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell.TheWorld.com (root@shell01.TheWorld.com [199.172.62.241]) by TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28653 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 18:06:44 -0500 Received: (from adamm@localhost) by shell.TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA11972458 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 18:06:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202072306.SAA11972458@shell.TheWorld.com> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Recommendatison for routers doing VPN, ISDN, and ADSL? To: sage-members@usenix.org (SAGE Members) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 18:06:44 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <20020207133323.A4460@bolthole.com> from "Philip Brown" at Feb 07, 2002 01:33:23 PM From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=2 From=3 Subject=3 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Anthony Howe asked: > I'm interested in suggestions for routers that do: > > ADSL and VPN (IPSec, 3DES) with ISDN backup To which Philip Brown replied: > I'm pretty sure the cisco modular routers like 2524 would handle this > stuff. . . . a standalone box to handle the VPN side of things. It's > probably better to offload that burden from your router anyway. I'll second this, for these reasons: First, a modular router lets you change network types (DSL, ISDN, T-1, whatever) without having to buy a whole new router each time. Second, having separate boxes for routing and VPN lets you change one or the other without having to change both -- which is especially important if you can't find the right all-in-one combination you need (either today or next year). Finally, two boxes gives you finer-grain access control -- which lets your mid-level SAs (or your network folks, if you split systems/network) muck with the router but only the senior (or security) people touch the VPN. AdamM From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 7 18:33:08 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g182Qjk20066 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 18:26:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from bunrab.catwhisker.org (adsl-63-193-123-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.123.122]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g182Qah20062 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 18:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from david@localhost) by bunrab.catwhisker.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g182QZK71887 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 18:26:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 18:26:35 -0800 (PST) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <200202080226.g182QZK71887@bunrab.catwhisker.org> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] arcserve and *NIX In-Reply-To: <000501c1afdc$e8b3adc0$0a00a8c0@ranch> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=2 From=2 Subject=3 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >From: "Jerald Sheets" >Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:39:46 -0600 >We use a "staging area" scenario. If you've got a great deal of empty >space on your Netware server that the backup is occurring on, just chunk >your nightly incremental into that scratch space, back it up to tape, >check to make sure the backup is done via a script or something, then >nuke the scratch. You'll see that the disk->disk transfer rate will >make life a lot easier, and your tape server can take it's time to spool >off the night's backup. Aside from the sheer speed, the significant advantage of staging the dump images to disk is that multiple processes may be writing to the disk at once -- thus, you can be doing multiple backups concurrently. In contrast, a tape drive tends to be a "serially-reusable resource". This is one of the techniques that enables AMANDA to work well (though it sounds as if AMANDA, by itself, will not satisfy der hans' requirements). Cheers, david (links to my resume at http://www.catwhisker.org/~david) -- David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org I believe it would be irresponsible (and thus, unethical) for me to advise, recommend, or support the use of any product that is or depends on any Microsoft product for any purpose other than personal amusement. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 7 22:29:14 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g186OYL22158 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:24:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from spliff.LuftHans.com (cpe-24-221-1-115.az.sprintbbd.net [24.221.1.115]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g186OUh22154 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:24:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by spliff.LuftHans.com with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1 (Debian)) id 16Z4ZY-0003Dm-00; Thu, 07 Feb 2002 23:31:48 -0700 Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 23:31:48 -0700 (MST) From: "der.hans" X-X-Sender: lufthans@spliff.LuftHans.com To: Jerald Sheets cc: "'Goetter des Netzes'" Subject: RE: [SAGE] arcserve and *NIX In-Reply-To: <000501c1afdc$e8b3adc0$0a00a8c0@ranch> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-15 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=2 From=3 Subject=5 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by usenix.org id g186OXh22155 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Am 07. Feb, 2002 schwätzte Jerald Sheets so: > We use a "staging area" scenario. If you've got a great deal of empty > space on your Netware server that the backup is occurring on, just chunk > your nightly incremental into that scratch space, back it up to tape, > check to make sure the backup is done via a script or something, then > nuke the scratch. You'll see that the disk->disk transfer rate will > make life a lot easier, and your tape server can take it's time to spool > off the night's backup. Does Novell understand *NIX perms and timestamps? In an all *NIX shop that's what I prefer ( never seen TBs of data all at once :). I'm leery of trusting file/dir perms and timestamps across OS types. > Do you have a library like a 3494? What's your main strategy? One of We've got some compaq tape libraries with two tape drives in them. > the other things we did to REALLY improve our backup speed was the > introduction of a "backup network". It's an all-fiber private network > that connects all production boxes. The backups going over a private > network (and not production) decreased our backup time from about 6 > hours to just under two, and took the load off the main hospital > network. That might help us some ( and we're considering it ), but our current test network doesn't really have anything else on it. Also, since novell and m$ backups work with 30 times the throughput it seems possible to get better performance on the network as it stands :). danke, der.hans -- # http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/ http://www.DevelopOnline.com/ # If you're not learning, you're not living. - der.hans From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 7 22:45:02 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g186fkR22260 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:41:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from spliff.LuftHans.com (cpe-24-221-1-115.az.sprintbbd.net [24.221.1.115]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g186fhh22256 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:41:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by spliff.LuftHans.com with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1 (Debian)) id 16Z4qO-0003JU-00 for ; Thu, 07 Feb 2002 23:49:12 -0700 Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 23:49:12 -0700 (MST) From: "der.hans" X-X-Sender: lufthans@spliff.LuftHans.com To: Goetter des Netzes Subject: [SAGE] arcserve, novell: ping info Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=3 env_From=3 From=4 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk moin, moin, OK, experimenting with large pings I was able to ping the novell box with -s 10212 and have 2% packet loss. 10213 and I got 100% loss :(. pinging other *NIX and m$ boxen with 65400 works fine. Our Novell guy played with default packet sizes ( should now be 65535 ) and now 35512 works, but 35513 doesn't. m$ has the same probs getting to Novell ping-wise. ciao, der.hans -- # http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/ http://www.DevelopOnline.com/ # Passwords are like underwear. You don't share them, you don't hang them on # your monitor, or under your keyboard, you don't email them, or put them on # a web site, and you must change them very often. -- Unknown From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 8 05:44:59 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g18Dedq24436 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 05:40:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntmail.gamespy.com ([207.199.1.98]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g18Debh24432 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 05:40:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [68.15.171.35] by ntmail.captured.com (NTMail 5.06.0016/AX0191.00.1ce0e1da) with ESMTP id crftohaa for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 05:40:28 -0800 From: "Jerald Sheets" To: "'der.hans'" Cc: "'Goetter des Netzes'" Subject: RE: [SAGE] arcserve and *NIX Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 07:40:28 -0600 Message-ID: <001001c1b0a6$2bb00460$0a00a8c0@ranch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=2 env_From=2 From=3 Subject=7 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Does Novell understand *NIX perms and timestamps? In an all *NIX shop that's what I prefer ( never seen TBs of data all at once :). I'm leery of trusting file/dir perms and timestamps across OS types. Good question.... Tivoli handles these issues for us. Anyone else have this answer? --JMS From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 8 14:10:23 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g18M80B29680 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:08:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.49]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g18M7xh29676 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:07:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop ([12.83.110.193]) by mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020208220753.FHGC22458.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@laptop> for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:07:53 +0000 Received: from jens by laptop with local (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 16ZIE4-0001lZ-00 for ; Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:06:32 -0700 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] arcserve and *NIX References: Organization: - From: Jens Link 0Date: 08 Feb 2002 14:06:32 -0700 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <87pu3fzns7.fsf@quux.de> Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Common Lisp) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:07:53 +0000 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=12 env_From=2 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk "der.hans" writes: > Does Novell understand *NIX perms and timestamps? In an all *NIX shop that's > what I prefer ( never seen TBs of data all at once :). I'm leery of trusting > file/dir perms and timestamps across OS types. There is an NFS module for Netware 4.x and 5.x and I think that Novell 6 can handle NFS out of the box so it should understand perms and timestamps. Jens -- I just found out that the brain is like a computer. If that's true, then there really aren't any stupid people. Just people running Windows. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 8 15:34:05 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g18NUn701200 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:30:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g18NUnk01195 for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:30:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.50]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g18M7ph29666 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:07:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop ([12.83.110.193]) by mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020208220744.FITC3965.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@laptop> for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:07:44 +0000 Received: from jens by laptop with local (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 16ZIHG-0001lr-00 for ; Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:09:50 -0700 To: Goetter des Netzes Subject: Re: [SAGE] arcserve, novell: ping info References: Organization: - From: Jens Link Date: 08 Feb 2002 14:09:50 -0700 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <87lme3znmp.fsf@quux.de> Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Common Lisp) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; IP=3 env_From=1 From=1 Subject=1 Message-ID=1 Received=1 Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk "der.hans" writes: > moin, moin, > > OK, experimenting with large pings I was able to ping the novell box with -s > 10212 and have 2% packet loss. 10213 and I got 100% loss :(. > > pinging other *NIX and m$ boxen with 65400 works fine. Our Novell guy played > with default packet sizes ( should now be 65535 ) and now 35512 works, but > 35513 doesn't. > > m$ has the same probs getting to Novell ping-wise. Try to disable IPX if possible. BTW which Novell Version do you use? Jens -- I just found out that the brain is like a computer. If that's true, then there really aren't any stupid people. Just people running Windows. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 11 23:08:03 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1C71NJ15250 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:01:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pinchi.noyb.com (250-139.adsl1.netlojix.net [207.71.250.139]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1C71IK15246 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:01:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from noyb.com (pinchi.noyb.com [207.71.250.139]) by pinchi.noyb.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id g1C6w0U19766 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:58:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3C68BCF8.82851F2@noyb.com> Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:58:00 -0800 From: paul company Reply-To: pjc@noyb.com Organization: None Of Your Business (NOYB) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Multibooting Partition Limitations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Has anyone sucessfully multibooted FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Linux and Windows 2000 off of one hard disk drive? Can *BSD boot off of "logical" partitions? If so, how? I've used GRUB to multiboot Linux and two other OSes, but the limitation of only having 4 primary partitions seems to limit the number of OSes you can multiboot. See "REQUIREMENTS BY THE OS:" http://home.wanadoo.nl/geurt/faqhow/alphabet.txt Basically, I know how to create primary and extended (with logical partitions inside) partitions, I just don't know how to install *BSD into the logical partitions. Thanks. --pjc From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 06:37:33 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CEa5e17401 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 06:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from delaluz.net (wsip68-15-168-199.no.no.cox.net [68.15.168.199]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1CEa3K17397 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 06:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from jogega ([216.230.149.231]) by delaluz.net (8.11.6/8.8.7) with SMTP id g1CEp5126382 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:51:05 -0600 From: "Gerardo Amaya" To: Subject: [SAGE] shell scripting Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:36:01 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hello all, I'm a newbie sysadmin and I want to know where can I find really good documentation or resources about shell scripting. I search for books and stuff over the internet but no success, I will like documentation from basic scripting, to advance sysadmin kind of thing. any sugestions? By the way, I use tcsh/csh thank you Gerardo Amaya From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 08:20:13 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CGJ6n17852 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:19:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from jthome.jthome.com ([24.242.135.122]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1CGJ3K17848 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:19:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jeff@localhost) by jthome.jthome.com (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g1CGJ0327556; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:19:00 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jeff) From: Jeff Tyler Message-Id: <200202121619.g1CGJ0327556@jthome.jthome.com> Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting To: gamaya@delaluz.net (Gerardo Amaya) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:19:00 -0600 (CST) Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: from "Gerardo Amaya" at Feb 12, 2002 08:36:01 AM Organization: Collective Technologies Phone: (512)-263-5500 Reply-To: jeff@colltech.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL5] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk First suggestion, get a real (programming) shell. ksh or sh make a lot more sense than tcsh or (shudder) csh. While both tcsh and csh are Ok for your interactive shell, they leave a lot to be desired for programming. Second suggestion, the way the world is going you might want to invest the skull sweat in learning perl rather than shell programming. While I still write a lot of shell, it's strictly because my 53 year old brain cells just refuse to grok perl. Good luck ! JT "Gerardo Amaya says:" > > Hello all, I'm a newbie sysadmin and I want to know where can I find really > good documentation or resources about shell scripting. I search for books > and stuff over the internet but no success, I will like documentation from > basic scripting, to advance sysadmin kind of thing. > > any sugestions? > > By the way, I use tcsh/csh > > thank you > > Gerardo Amaya > > -- ========================================================================= |Jeffrey S. Tyler Office 512-263-5500 | |Collective Technologies Cell/Pager 512-699-8225 | ========================================================================= From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 08:33:09 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CGWxe17982 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:32:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from trickle.cc.mcgill.ca (trickle.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.27.51]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1CGWrK17978 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:32:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from rna.mcgill.ca (rna.McGill.CA [132.206.27.47]) by trickle.cc.mcgill.ca (8.12.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g1CGWlKK012760 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:32:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from guiness.CC.McGill.CA (guiness.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.35.24]) by rna.mcgill.ca (8.12.0/8.12.0) with ESMTP id g1CGWlHp022705; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:32:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:32:44 -0500 (EST) From: Ron Hall To: Gerardo Amaya cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > > By the way, I use tcsh/csh > The nice folks at O'Reilly put out a fine collection of books, tho' I personally would rather do my shell scripting in the Bourne/Korn shell and would much rather do it in perl, but YMMV. Somewhere on the net there is an article by Tom Christiansen on why CSH is an unsuitable language (??) for sfripting in. The date is dated, but the content is not. I would read it and consider the alternatives. HTH As Always r From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 08:51:31 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CGpGB18122 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:51:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from lanning.cc ([63.166.8.14]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1CGpEK18118 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:51:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lanning@localhost) by lanning.cc (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g1CGpBD29292; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:51:11 -0800 From: Robert Hajime Lanning Message-Id: <200202121651.g1CGpBD29292@lanning.cc> Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting To: gamaya@delaluz.net (Gerardo Amaya) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:51:10 -0800 (PST) Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: from "Gerardo Amaya" at Feb 12, 2002 08:36:01 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I started with tcsh as my login shell and csh as my scripting shell. I got tired of recompiling tcsh and installing on the hundreds of machines I was managing. I learned about "set -o vi" in ksh to get command line editing using vi commands. I learned Bourne shell and Korn shell out of need and ended up using ksh as my login shell. Unless you want to compile tcsh on all the different platforms that you will be admin'ing you should switch to sh/ksh. Boot scripts are in sh and almost all maintainence/install scripts are in sh. start going through the O'Reilly line of books. www.ora.com to find the books and fatbrain.com to order. TIP: make sure that the root login shell is the staticly linked version of sh. ---- As written by Gerardo Amaya: > > Hello all, I'm a newbie sysadmin and I want to know where can I find really > good documentation or resources about shell scripting. I search for books > and stuff over the internet but no success, I will like documentation from > basic scripting, to advance sysadmin kind of thing. > > any sugestions? > > By the way, I use tcsh/csh > > thank you > > Gerardo Amaya > > -- END OF LINE. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 08:58:49 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CGwhi18214 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:58:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from bunrab.catwhisker.org (adsl-63-193-123-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.123.122]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1CGwaK18209 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:58:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from david@localhost) by bunrab.catwhisker.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1CGwY733157; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:58:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:58:34 -0800 (PST) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <200202121658.g1CGwY733157@bunrab.catwhisker.org> To: gamaya@delaluz.net Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >From: "Gerardo Amaya" >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:36:01 -0600 >Hello all, I'm a newbie sysadmin and I want to know where can I find really >good documentation or resources about shell scripting. I search for books >and stuff over the internet but no success, I will like documentation from >basic scripting, to advance sysadmin kind of thing. >any sugestions? >By the way, I use tcsh/csh Just because you use tcsh/csh for interactive use does not mean that you are (or should be) -- in any way -- constrained to use it for scripting. (I use FreeBSD systems primarily, so using the default shell of csh (which is really tcsh) comes naturally. Nevertheless, shell scripts that I write (with the sole exception of ~/.xsession) are in /bin/sh.) I suggest that you examine existing shell scripts on your system(s) -- see /etc for examples. Note that there are often things done in these scripts whose purposes may not be readily apparent; nevertheless, they need to run, and run reliably. To the extent that this is one of your more important requirements, you should be able to learn much from them. Cheers, david (links to my resume at http://www.catwhisker.org/~david) -- David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org I believe it would be irresponsible (and thus, unethical) for me to advise, recommend, or support the use of any product that is or depends on any Microsoft product for any purpose other than personal amusement. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 09:42:26 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CHfWU18914 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:41:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnvrpop1.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop5.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.7]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g1CHfUK18910 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:41:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 81304 invoked by uid 0); 12 Feb 2002 17:41:24 -0000 Received: from www.pburkholder.com (65.100.135.241) by dnvrpop5.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 12 Feb 2002 17:41:23 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by www.pburkholder.com (8.11.2/8.8.7) id g1CHexs01804; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:40:59 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:39:52 -0700 Message-Id: <02021210395200.01458@www> From: "Peter Burkholder" To: gamaya@delaluz.net Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Reply-To: pburkholder@pobox.com Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <200202121658.g1CGwY733157@bunrab.catwhisker.org> In-Reply-To: <200202121658.g1CGwY733157@bunrab.catwhisker.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I used to script in csh until I read Tom Christiansen's "CSH Programming Considered Harmful," reprinted in Jerry Peek, Tim O'Reilly, & Mike Loukides "Unix Power Tools," from O'Reilly. The article is widely available on the web if you try a Google search. I've used Bourne shell since -- and Perl when it's merited. I would recommend "Unix Power Tools" (lots of good tips for the newbie admin) and I'm personally very fond of Kernighan & Pike's "The Unix Programming Environment" -- it's astonishing that an operating system manual is largely relevant after nearly 20 years. - --Peter On Tuesday 12 February 2002 09:58, David Wolfskill wrote: > From: "Gerardo Amaya" > > >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:36:01 -0600 > > > >Hello all, I'm a newbie sysadmin and I want to know where can I find > > really good documentation or resources about shell scripting. I search > > for books and stuff over the internet but no success, I will like > > documentation from basic scripting, to advance sysadmin kind of thing. > > > >any sugestions? > > > >By the way, I use tcsh/csh > - -- Peter Burkholder, SSCP, GSEC pburkholder@pobox.com 2229 S Gilpin St ~~~ ~~ ~~~~ _o Denver, CO 80210-4616 ~~~ ~~~~ ~~ _`\<,_ (303) 282-7738 ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ (*)/ (*) - -- PGP: http://www.pburkholder.com/pgpkey.txt or: http://search.keyserver.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=0x75624A11 or: send mail w/ subject "GET 0x75624A11" to PGP Fingerprint: 70 5D 8A F6 9D 4C 50 26 11 CA B0 05 E3 C3 F5 52 75 62 4A 11 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQA/AwUBPGlTcOPD9VJ1YkoREQKJrwCg+quuF1ZUKTO0M8JBRTL0fiQ+gBQAoL/2 7zGmMRy4q3AAr5RhPkEYQEfF =GkT6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 10:04:01 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CI3nG19310 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from femail25.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail25.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.15]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1CI3mK19306 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfsafd ([68.44.1.159]) by femail25.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20020212180342.GQWD9845.femail25.sdc1.sfba.home.com@dfsafd>; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:03:42 -0800 Message-ID: <000e01c1b3f0$24d2c400$9f012c44@trentn01.nj.comcast.net> From: "Sisir K" To: "Gerardo Amaya" , References: Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:07:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi Gerardo, I haven't seen a comprehensive web site on learning scripting, but some books do a good job in teaching the basic stuff. Here is my favourite web site on this: http://shelldorado.com/ Pls check the Links section there, to find some more useful sites. sisiro Unix SysAdmin > Hello all, I'm a newbie sysadmin and I want to know where can I find really > good documentation or resources about shell scripting. I search for books > and stuff over the internet but no success, I will like documentation from > basic scripting, to advance sysadmin kind of thing. > > > Gerardo Amaya From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 10:09:54 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CI9nX19419 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:09:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from frogbog.baltimorons.org (IDENT:root@leapfrog.baltimorons.org [216.181.177.189]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1CI9mK19415 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:09:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jon@localhost) by frogbog.baltimorons.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1CIATi19970; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:10:29 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:10:29 -0500 From: "J. Lasser" To: Gerardo Amaya Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting Message-ID: <20020212181007.GF19877@frogbog.baltimorons.org> Mail-Followup-To: Gerardo Amaya , sage-members@usenix.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="l+goss899txtYvYf" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --l+goss899txtYvYf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the wise words of Gerardo Amaya: > Hello all, I'm a newbie sysadmin and I want to know where can I find real= ly > good documentation or resources about shell scripting. I search for books > and stuff over the internet but no success, I will like documentation from > basic scripting, to advance sysadmin kind of thing. >=20 > any sugestions? Of course I'd recommend my book. :-) (See .sig for more info.) Other than that, there are a lot of books that are a little helpful. "Learning the Bash Shell," from O'Reilly (don't remember the author) has lots of good stuff, much of which is applicable to other shells. There's a new edition of this out, which I haven't seen, however. > By the way, I use tcsh/csh You'll find that even most people who use tcsh as their login shell will still script in a bourne shell derivative, either for straight bourne or korn shell. HTH, Jon Lasser --=20 Jon Lasser=09 Home: jon@lasser.org | Work:jon@cluestickconsulting.com http://www.tux.org/~lasser/ | http://www.cluestickconsulting.com Buy my book, _Think_Unix_! http://www.tux.org/~lasser/think-unix/ --l+goss899txtYvYf Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQCVAwUBPGlafysJJQQiCQ0lAQE1OQP9E20M+UQVY4S86LhxmQ658Z0F1Pt33uuR s9mQlN29opJYhIPTMisGkKcpRXfbpsCNX9OOqA+Z+Z5VRItnzcFHxOXtOXmFQiwQ Mkx/z75DU7EdUkv0wLP1SGq460wsk3SBTjKirZqkYpH/0/UJqeOifRvEtAA7EsDw fCH0OVx5LAk= =OnU4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --l+goss899txtYvYf-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 10:22:11 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CILw819669 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:21:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from sephiroth.byte-me.org (asv-085.sjc.ca.bbnow.net [24.219.19.85]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1CILuK19665 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:21:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mallen@localhost) by sephiroth.byte-me.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1CILa017834; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:21:36 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:21:36 -0800 From: Mark Allen To: Gerardo Amaya Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting Message-ID: <20020212102136.A16708@sephiroth.byte-me.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from gamaya@delaluz.net on Tue, Feb 12, 2002 at 08:36:01AM -0600 X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Feb 12, 2002 at 08:36:01AM -0600, Gerardo Amaya wrote: > Hello all, I'm a newbie sysadmin and I want to know where can I find real= ly > good documentation or resources about shell scripting.=20 > By the way, I use tcsh/csh My first suggestion is to stop using csh for scripting. csh is fine for interactive login, though if you really really like it. Why not use csh for scripts? This may be a little bit of a religious argument, but Tom Christiansen has already made an excellent lengthy case against csh, but I think the best reason not to use csh is simply because the Bourne shell and syntax=20 is ubiquitous on all Unix-like systems, unlike csh. =20 You can find Tom's other reasons in his screed here:=20 http://www.perl.com/pub/a/language/versus/csh.html Two of the best books I've read on shell scripting are: * Learning the Korn Shell, Bill Rosenblatt=20 (ObWoo: Woo! New second edition coming soon!) http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/korn2/ * The New KornShell Command and Programming Language (2nd ed.),=20 David Korn, Morris Bolsky, 1995. http://vig.prenhall.com/catalog/academic/product/1,4096,0131827006.html,0= 0.html Note: The "one true" Korn Shell has only recently had it's source code=20 avaliable, but you can generally make bash pretend to be more or less a=20 Korn Shell very easily. The pdksh project is a reasonable facsimile as well. If you want "one true" ksh source, though, go here: http://www.research.att.com/sw/download/ Mark --=20 Mark Allen -- mallen@byte-me.org -- http://www.byte-me.org/~mallen/ PGP: 0x5CDC2161 Mark Allen (Personal Key) =20 --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8aV0wWVr5gFzcIWERAs/2AJ4wOf7qhMxwPt1iRDXzruldlwnCswCgnUcw T2M+N/BSgfubGm+pIWu7hYA= =jGOc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 10:23:54 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CINq019700 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:23:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1CINoK19696 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:23:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from feta.cs.duke.edu (feta.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.207]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19632; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:23:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (des@localhost) by feta.cs.duke.edu (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA16820; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:23:49 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: feta.cs.duke.edu: des owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:23:49 -0500 (EST) From: "Daniel E. Singer" To: Gerardo Amaya cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Gerardo Amaya wrote: > Hello all, I'm a newbie sysadmin and I want to know where can I find really > good documentation or resources about shell scripting. I search for books > and stuff over the internet but no success, I will like documentation from > basic scripting, to advance sysadmin kind of thing. > any sugestions? I just noticed a list of Shell programming books and resources. Go to , and in the upper-left "Buyer's Guide" section you'll see a link "Bourne Shell Programming Books". You'll also find some good resources here: and here: These should be enough to keep you busy for awhile! ;^) > By the way, I use tcsh/csh As others have suggested, the *csh variants are inferior when it comes to scripting, and I say this using tcsh as my _interactive_ shell at this very moment. -- Daniel E. Singer, System Administrator Dept. of Computer Science, Duke University, Durham NC 27708 USA "Non cognosco. In hoc tantum laboro." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 10:28:47 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CISaX19816 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CISan19811 for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.netmeister.org (netmeister.org [216.254.69.93]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1CIRPK19789 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:27:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from jschauma by www.netmeister.org with local (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 16aheI-0001x4-00 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:27:26 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:27:26 -0500 From: Jan Schaumann To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting Message-ID: <20020212182726.GB7400@netmeister.org> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Gerardo Amaya wrote: > Hello all, I'm a newbie sysadmin and I want to know where can I find really > good documentation or resources about shell scripting. I search for books > and stuff over the internet but no success, I will like documentation from > basic scripting, to advance sysadmin kind of thing. > > any sugestions? To get the basics, you can probably work with the bash-HOWTO's from http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/Bash-Prog-Intro-HOWTO.html and http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/Adv-Bash-Scr-HOWTO/index.html > By the way, I use tcsh/csh Then you may find http://www.daemonnews.org/200112/csh_tcsh_part1.html http://www.daemonnews.org/200201/tcsh2.html http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200202/tcsh3.html useful. HTH, -Jan -- finger jschauma@netmeister.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 10:36:06 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CIZwN19937 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from new.gerasimov.net ([209.143.70.150]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1CIZuK19933 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:35:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from alban@localhost) by new.gerasimov.net (8.11.2/8.8.7) id g1CIYd622525 for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:34:39 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:34:39 -0800 From: David Alban To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting Message-ID: <20020212103439.A22312@new.gerasimov.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from gamaya@delaluz.net on Tue, Feb 12, 2002 at 08:36:01AM -0600 X-PGP-Key: http://www.gerasimov.net/~alban/pubkey X-PGP-Fingerprint: 708D 7772 46D0 BA64 766C 4AE1 3E1D 0CF5 CFCE A5D0 X-Use-Encryption: Encrypted email preferred (see www.gnupg.org) X-Face: 8N^s_ziVG$"ao@BcKmBF=t4&c3vD3:LtY!R|y^ofD; !WF[d|}7KWZ*ePLklxt{#S@-vG2~V 73Ifz$gEQfp>-yO:IwC1*#amvy_LFVk}S*V"LD2aPBA9FLYY)P?(@Db0>`kMr6Y8@Pyx7dR*J(%Dkd *cEU*SJbOn9ye>g/,)gy%icZ{5f|elm=li#zIvYpZufyLH2FdY,/|; 1no}+gkjxbjXms2nkhe0"G!Z 3'#2G8Kv~DI|58]T X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gerardo, At 2002/02/12/08:36 -0600 Gerardo Amaya wrote: > Hello all, I'm a newbie sysadmin and I want to know where can I find real= ly > good documentation or resources about shell scripting. I search for books > and stuff over the internet but no success, I will like documentation from > basic scripting, to advance sysadmin kind of thing. >=20 > any sugestions? >=20 > By the way, I use tcsh/csh My own personal preference is to use sh or sh-derived shells for non-interactive scripting. But that's just my preference. As far as resources, the first thing you should do is get to know your shell(s) well. Read the man page(s) from top to bottom. Another, sometimes non-obvious, way to pick up knowledge about scripting is to read scripts. Take a look at your system's (or systems') start up scripts. Try to figure out what they're doing and how they're doing it. System start up scripts are solving real world problems, as opposed to being contrived examples, and thus, are examples of scripts in the wild. :-)=20 David --=20 Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. --Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8aWA/Ph0M9c/OpdARAgVsAJ9XY8nGRHt8skkxtHPwEnMyWErgewCfcAcH W8gh4CJP+852+eN5orV0xiI= =Eq3d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 11:13:41 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CJCaP20704 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:12:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from tiku.hut.fi (tiku.hut.fi [130.233.228.86]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1CJCYK20700 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:12:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from carmen.hut.fi (jannek@carmen.hut.fi [130.233.200.85]) by tiku.hut.fi (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26589 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:12:32 +0200 (EET) Received: (from jannek@localhost) by carmen.hut.fi (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA02384 for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:12:32 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:12:32 +0200 From: Janne Korkkula To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting Message-ID: <20020212211232.A2203@cc.hut.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from gamaya@delaluz.net on Tue, Feb 12, 2002 at 08:36:01AM -0600 X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk (I forgot to Cc the list initially; Here's a delayed copy...) On 12.02. 08:36, Gerardo Amaya wrote: > Hello all, I'm a newbie sysadmin and I want to know where can I find really > good documentation or resources about shell scripting. Depending on your environment, 'man sh' might be all you need. Solaris, for example, has a very nice man page for sh. No wonder, half the operating system is written in sh/ksh. Tru64 Unix, HPUX and the BSD family are OK as well, once you find the right page. Forget AIX, the manual pages are a joke. Linux isn't an option, since it doesn't usually even come with a standard shell... > By the way, I use tcsh/csh In my opinion, portable shell scipts are best written in bourne/posix/ksh style, csh and tcsh just make things complicated. Zsh is a nice shell to use interactively, it follows ths standard sh syntax and has all the bells and whistles one can wish for. > any sugestions? Plan ahead, try to choose the right tool for the job right from the beginning. When your shell script is large enough to fill the root partition and uses hundreds of rather simple system commands and pipes long enough to span the universe, you'll know it should have been written in Perl... -- Janne Korkkula Helsinki University of Technology, Computing Centre jk@hut.fi tel. +358 9 451 4314 http://www.hut.fi/cc/u/jannek/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 12:16:40 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CKFmq21830 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:15:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls2.std.com [199.172.62.104]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1CKFlK21826 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:15:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell.TheWorld.com (root@shell01.TheWorld.com [199.172.62.241]) by TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04696 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:15:46 -0500 Received: (from adamm@localhost) by shell.TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA242839 for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:15:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202122015.PAA242839@shell.TheWorld.com> Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting To: sage-members@usenix.org (SAGE Members) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:15:45 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Gerardo Amaya" at Feb 12, 2002 08:36:01 AM From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk "Gerardo Amaya" asked about learning ([t]csh) shell programming, and lots of people responded with 1) helpful books, and 2) the suggestion to use sh/ksh/bash; some said "use Perl instead." While all of the points made were valid, an important reason was neglected . . . The POSIX.2 standard (remember that one?) specifies sh as The One True Shell, even though the syntax in POSIX is nearly identical to that of ksh. I'm pretty sure that the "Single UNIX Specification" (AKA "XPG 4.2" and "Spec 1170") matches POSIX.2 in this regard. For better or worse, Perl does not appear in POSIX. IMO, POSIX is the prevailing Unix standard these days; that is, there are so many standards to choose from, but most vendors seem to have chosen POSIX. There's something to be said for writing shell scripts that have a very high likelihood of running on damned near any modern Unix machine you're likely to come across. Sure, Perl ships on most machines these days, but which version of Perl, with which libraries (modules, packages, etc.)? And yes, I know, Perl ports very easily -- but the shell is just there. No muss, no fuss. That's not so say you shouldn't learn Perl -- you should. But you should learn shell, too. Specifically, POSIX.2 sh, which is ksh (and 99.44% bash) in disguise. AdamM P.S. - Don't forget the USENIX election! Vote early, vote often, vote for Adam. :-) Vote for honey, too, or he'll ask you to give back his dime. :-) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 12:31:44 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CKVa224578 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:31:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.flipdog.com (sundog.flipdog.com [63.173.191.2]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1CKVYK24574 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:31:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from aurora (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.flipdog.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EA7041EF4; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:32:00 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 From: "Jan L. Peterson" To: "Gerardo Amaya" Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting X-face: p=61=y<.Il$z+k*y~"j>%c[8R~8{j3WTnaSd-'RyC>t.Ub>AAm\zYA#5JF +W=G?EI+|EI);]=fs_MOfKN0n9`OlmB[1^0;L^64K5][nOb&gv/n}p@mm06|J|WNa asp7mMEw0w)e_6T~7v-\]yHKvI^1}[2k)] References: In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:36:01 CST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:32:00 -0700 Message-Id: <20020212203200.6EA7041EF4@mail.flipdog.com> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I will second the vote for The Unix Programming Environment by Kernighan and Pike. That's where I got my start in shell scripting. Also, I concur with all the others who have told you to not use csh/ tcsh for scripting. Stick with sh. -jan- -- Jan L. Peterson FlipDog.com tel. +1 801 418 7815 Sr. Systems Admin 3210 N Canyon Rd, Ste 300 fax +1 801 818 0879 jlp@flipdog.com Provo, UT 84604 http://www.flipdog.com/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 13:04:00 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CL3e325002 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:03:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from wally.eecs.harvard.edu (wally.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.30]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1CL3dK24998 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:03:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (trey@localhost) by wally.eecs.harvard.edu (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id g1CL3Sn09456; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:03:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:03:28 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris To: "J. Lasser" cc: Gerardo Amaya , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting In-Reply-To: <20020212181007.GF19877@frogbog.baltimorons.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Not quite apropos to the current discussion, but... I highly recommend zsh. It is a very useful interactive shell (its tab completion is one of the most configurable out there, and it has beautifully useful parameter expansions like *(/), giving you all directories), and, until ksh's source was released last year, it was the closest shell to true Korn available on free OS's. Zsh gives you Korn-ish constructs when those are appropriate, and csh-ish ones when those are more helpful. It's quite nice. -- Trey Harris Secretary and Executive SAGE -- The System Administrators Guild (www.sage.org) Opinions above are not necessarily those of SAGE. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 14:31:16 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CMU6a26589 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:30:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from VL-MS-MR004.sc1.videotron.ca (relais.videotron.ca [24.201.245.36]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1CMU4K26585 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:30:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from bb4.com ([24.200.122.244]) by VL-MS-MR004.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GRFYEY03.AIB for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:28:10 -0500 Message-ID: <3C699648.9697AB4B@bb4.com> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:25:12 -0500 From: Robert-Andre Croteau Organization: BB4 Technologies Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting References: <20020212203200.6EA7041EF4@mail.flipdog.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk UNIX shell programming by Kochan & Wood is also pretty good. it's published by Hayden books but I'm not sure if it's still in print, my copy dates back from 1990 :) sh hasn't changed much since then ... It also includes some ksh pointers. cheers -- Robert-Andre Croteau BSD,MOTU BB4 Technologies Inc. http://bb4.com/ +1 (514) 238-9374 Si le bonheur ne s'achete pas alors louez le. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 15:30:05 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1CNSbH27602 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:28:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.bb4.com (www.bb4.com [66.38.217.99]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1CNSSK27597 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:28:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sean@localhost) by www.bb4.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g1CNUil78780; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:30:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from sean) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:30:44 -0500 From: Sean MacGuire To: Gerardo Amaya Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting Message-ID: <20020212183044.B53788@bb4.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from gamaya@delaluz.net on Tue, Feb 12, 2002 at 08:36:01AM -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 0, Gerardo Amaya wrote: > Hello all, I'm a newbie sysadmin and I want to know where can I find really > good documentation or resources about shell scripting. I search for books > and stuff over the internet but no success, I will like documentation from > basic scripting, to advance sysadmin kind of thing. > > any sugestions? > > By the way, I use tcsh/csh Go grab Big Brother from http://bb4.com/ - it's all C and shell scripts and will help you in the sysadmin parts as well. (Note I'm *really* biased) -- Sean MacGuire sean@bb4.com BB4 Technologies http://bb4.com icbm --> 45'31.06N-73'35.19W +1 514 996 4638 "Looking down the barrel of another day" From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 16:52:48 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1D0nkM06397 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:49:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from associates.deer-run.com (associates.deer-run.com [216.15.51.194]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1D0njK06393 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:49:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from deer.deer-deer.com (deer.deer-run.com [10.66.1.2]) by associates.deer-run.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1D0ndI32608; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:49:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from hal@localhost) by deer.deer-deer.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g1D0nd126675; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:49:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:49:39 -0800 From: Hal Pomeranz To: sage-members@usenix.org, baylisa@baylisa.org Subject: [SAGE] Massive SNMP vulnerability reports Message-ID: <20020212164939.C15844@deer-run.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Many of you have already seen this, but I think it needs the widest dissemination possible. CERT Advisory 2002-03 (http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-2002-03.html) describes a suite of buffer overflow and denial-of-service attacks against the SNMP implementations used by essentially every vendor of network-capable devices. Disable SNMP, block the SNMP ports at your firewall (most critical are 161 and 162, tcp and udp-- the CERT Advisory lists other less commonly used ports), and obtain patches from your vendor. Do it now. -- Hal Pomeranz, Founder/CEO Deer Run Associates hal@deer-run.com Network Connectivity and Security, Systems Management, Training From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 12 20:12:43 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1D4BRC10118 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from q4.quik.com (q4.quik.com [216.176.28.1]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1D4BQK10114 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:11:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from biz.compata.com (IDENT:root@compata.com [216.176.39.9]) by q4.quik.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g1D4CwD242606 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:12:58 -0800 Received: from biz.compata.com by biz.compata.com (Linux 2.2.14) with ESMTP (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA11472 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:11:08 -0800 Message-Id: <200202130411.UAA11472@biz.compata.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.3 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:15:45 EST." <200202122015.PAA242839@shell.TheWorld.com> X-message-flag: Did you know Outlook is junk? X-Face: $?&5f7w4GjUJOb-[FmngebA}V`5Dv)QEdHg|d%mytVRm]'o}*{J6:PP%(LfN LmOcb#>"^wDF*|ZzuS??S*vLH[.miV( X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk "Adam S. Moskowitz" wrote: >There's something to be said for writing shell scripts that have >a very high likelihood of running on damned near any modern Unix machine >you're likely to come across. I concur with avoiding csh scripts. But that does NOT mean that sh scripts are likely to run on "damned near any" system. The most common thing in a script is an invocation of a binary program, and, unfortunately, many of those differ substantially between systems, in syntax, function, and location. Making a truly portable script is a much more involved process than choosing the language. -- Dave Close, Compata, Costa Mesa CA +1 714 434 7359 dave@compata.com dhclose@alumni.caltech.edu "..the last seven decades of the twentieth century will be characterized in history as the dark ages of theoretical physics." -- Carver Mead From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 01:37:06 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1D9PeO11773 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:25:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from pop.snert.net (mail.snert.net [195.5.195.101]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1D9PXK11768 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:25:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from snert.com ([193.41.72.238]) by pop.snert.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1D9tc0T003160 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:55:40 +0100 Message-ID: <3C6A3105.6090909@snert.com> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:25:25 +0100 From: Anthony Howe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sage Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting References: <200202122015.PAA242839@shell.TheWorld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > For better or worse, Perl does not appear in POSIX. POSIX was documenting and standardising "common historical practice". Perl was too new within the Unix world to standardise during the early 1990's. Also there is really only one official source for Perl, where there were MANY for the other tools - which is one of the reasons why GNU came about - to provide free best of breed versions of all the tools. I worked for MKS during the POSIX.2 balloting process and have reviewed that document more times that I care to (especially the Vi section which Keith Bostic and I tore to shreds and redid a little too late for the first edition of POSIX.2), BUT the whole POSIX set of documents in my mind is the "One True Standard" since they document the most common historical practice across multiple *nixs. When I write in C I adhere to POSIX as much as possible, when I script in a shell I adhere to POSIX (which standardised Korn Shell). > > IMO, POSIX is the prevailing Unix standard these days; that is, there are > so many standards to choose from, but most vendors seem to have chosen > POSIX. There's something to be said for writing shell scripts that have > a very high likelihood of running on damned near any modern Unix machine > you're likely to come across. X/Open is a joke IMHO since it essentially takes the view "all historical APIs and tools are standard", just so that vendors can claim standard conformance without actually having to do anything to be portable. Just because they have gone and documented it all doesn't mean its any good, though I did work on the Curses portion of that document for a long time too, which wasn't covered by POSIX API standards :( > Sure, Perl ships on most machines these days, but which version of Perl, > with which libraries (modules, packages, etc.)? And yes, I know, Perl > ports very easily -- but the shell is just there. No muss, no fuss. Yes. > That's not so say you shouldn't learn Perl -- you should. But you should > learn shell, too. Specifically, POSIX.2 sh, which is ksh (and 99.44% > bash) in disguise. Actually I have a love/hate relationship with Perl- there are just too many ways to do anything that I feel I end up doing nothing- because it appears to me to lack structure and the syntax for many things bothers me. Perl is fine for quick and dirty. I have recently discovered Ruby, which I think will become my scripting language of choice: its like the fusion of Java, Perl, and maybe some Python. From what I've read so far, it has a nice clean syntax and structure, which appeals to me. -- Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus "Microsoft (cough, sputter, spit, !@#$%) ..." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 02:28:41 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DANnQ12122 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 02:23:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from raptor-qfe0.answerfinancial.com ([208.236.100.231]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g1DANmK12118 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 02:23:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.2.0.11] by raptor-qfe0.answerfinancial.com via smtpd (for voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) with SMTP; 13 Feb 2002 10:14:36 UT Received: by us-cp-ml02.answerfinancial.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 02:24:50 -0800 Message-ID: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk> From: Todd Williams To: "'jeff@colltech.com'" , gamaya@delaluz.net Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] shell scripting Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 02:24:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Lots of good ideas and books were mentioned in this thread, but I expected more answers like Jeff's below. I surprised more people aren't saying things like "Shell? Get a life! We all use PERL now!" I'd say the "best practices" are: 1. Whenever possible, write PERL. 2. Learn enough /bin/sh to read rc files and stuff. 3. It's OK to use tcsh as your login shell, but don't program in it. Now, what's the best practice for dealing with the shell environment after you su to root? Just remember to type tcsh every time? Modify root's startup files? Create an alternate root account that uses tcsh as it's default shell? -Todd Jeff Tyler sez: >First suggestion, get a real (programming) shell. ksh or sh make a lot >more sense than tcsh or (shudder) csh. While both tcsh and csh are Ok for >your interactive shell, they leave a lot to be desired for programming. > >Second suggestion, the way the world is going you might want to >invest the skull sweat in learning perl rather than shell programming. >While I still write a lot of shell, it's strictly because my 53 year >old brain cells just refuse to grok perl. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 03:10:34 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DB7oY12391 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 03:07:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntua.gr (achilles.noc.ntua.gr [147.102.222.210]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DB7hK12387 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 03:07:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr (theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr [147.102.1.1]) by ntua.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1DB7e400202; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:07:40 +0200 (EET) Received: (from zvr@localhost) by theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1DB7dF25053; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:07:39 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:07:39 +0200 From: Alexios Zavras To: David Wolfskill Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting Message-ID: <20020213130739.A18166@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr> References: <200202121658.g1CGwY733157@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200202121658.g1CGwY733157@bunrab.catwhisker.org>; from david@catwhisker.org on 20020212T085834 X-Mail-Address: P.O. Box 24071, GR-111 10 Athens, GREECE X-Home-Address: 24, Th. Anninou St., GR-111 41 Athens, GREECE X-Work-Phone: +30-1-8203163 X-Work-Fax: +30-1-8203135 X-Home-Phone: +30-1-2933369 X-Home-Fax: +30-1-2933369 X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk David Wolfskill wrote [edited]: > I suggest that you examine existing shell scripts on your system(s) -- > see /etc for examples. Note that there are often things done in these > scripts whose purposes may not be readily apparent; nevertheless, they > need to run, and run reliably. To the extent that this is one of your > more important requirements, you should be able to learn much from them. Does anyone have examples of really great shell scripting ? I mean dealing with things like different environments, availability of commands, checking status of commands, etc. In my experience, creating a truly portable (and useful) script, to be used reliably in a variety of environments, is a task that is usually left "as an exercise" -- most scripts rely on so many assumptions that the environment is sane and most things "just work"... -- -- zvr -- -- +---------------------------+ Alexios Zavras (-zvr-) | H eytyxia den exei enoxes | zvr@pobox.com +-----------------------zvr-+ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 04:37:46 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DCXfl12957 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:33:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from viruswall.pliva.hr (wall.pliva.hr [195.29.208.9]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DCXcK12953 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:33:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from merctech.com (IDENT:root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by viruswall.pliva.hr (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07529 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:30:32 +0100 From: bergman@merctech.com Received: from piquin (bergman@localhost) by merctech.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g1DCWLS24847; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:32:21 +0100 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 12/06/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Todd Williams cc: sage-members@usenix.org Reply-To: bergman@merctech.com Subject: Re: [SAGE] Root's shell & shell scripting In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Feb 2002 02:24:51 PST." <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk> References: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:32:21 +0100 Message-ID: <24846.1013603541@piquin> X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In your message dated: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 02:24:51 PST, The pithy ruminations from Todd Williams on were: => Lots of good ideas and books were mentioned in this thread, but I => expected more answers like Jeff's below. => => I surprised more people aren't saying things like "Shell? Get a life! => We all use PERL now!" => => I'd say the "best practices" are: => 1. Whenever possible, write PERL. Um...I'd say to use shell (sh, ksh) for anything "small" that might ever need to be portable (to different servers/architectures) before turning to perl. As much as we might like it, perl really isn't universal, and there are some seriously old versions showing up as the "default" from vendors. => 2. Learn enough /bin/sh to read rc files and stuff. Yep. => 3. It's OK to use tcsh as your login shell, but don't program in it. Yep. => => Now, what's the best practice for dealing with the shell environment => after you su to root? Just remember to type tcsh every time? Modify => root's startup files? Create an alternate root account that uses tcsh => as it's default shell? What about editing /etc/passwd to change the shell, putting in a typo, not testing your change while another root session is still open, finding you cannot login at all as root, and then posting to the sun-managers list about how you hosed the root account and asking for help? Oh, sorry, I thought this was the FAQ-of-the-week for a moment. :) I like to leave root's shell as /bin/sh (or whatever statically linked equivalent default your system uses), and then put something like this in ~root/.profile: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MYSHELL=/usr/local/bin/bash MYSHELLCMD="-c" # option to run a single command # bash -c # [t]csh -e MYSHELLLOGIN="--login" # otion to specify a login shell # bash --login # [t]csh -l if [ -x $MYSHELL ] ; then $MYSHELL $MYSHELLCMD "exit 0" if [ $? -eq 0 ] ; then # The shell was able to execute something echo "exec()ing $MYSHELL" exec $MYSHELL $MYSHELLLOGIN fi # If we get to here, then we couldn't start up the chosen shell...but # we've still got /sbin/sh as our shell... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adjust the variables to suit your taste, add some salt, stir well, and test thoroughly. Mark => => -Todd => => Jeff Tyler sez: => >First suggestion, get a real (programming) shell. ksh or sh make a lot => >more sense than tcsh or (shudder) csh. While both tcsh and csh are Ok for => >your interactive shell, they leave a lot to be desired for programming. => > => >Second suggestion, the way the world is going you might want to => >invest the skull sweat in learning perl rather than shell programming. => >While I still write a lot of shell, it's strictly because my 53 year => >old brain cells just refuse to grok perl. => ----- Mark Bergman Biker, Rock Climber, Unix mechanic, IATSE #1 Stagehand http://wwwkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=bergman%40merctech.com I want a newsgroup with a infinite S/N ratio! Now taking CFV on: rec.motorcycles.stagehands.pet-bird-owners.pinballers.unix-supporters 5+ So Far--Want to join? Check out: http://www.panix.com/~bergman From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 04:46:28 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DCguE13023 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:42:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from halfdome.holdit.com (IDENT:merlyn@halfdome.holdit.com [209.102.105.64]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DCgsK13019 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:42:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from merlyn@localhost) by halfdome.holdit.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA28014; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:42:46 -0800 To: Todd Williams Cc: "'jeff@colltech.com'" , gamaya@delaluz.net, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting References: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk> From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: 13 Feb 2002 04:42:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk> Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Todd" == Todd Williams writes: Todd> I'd say the "best practices" are: Todd> 1. Whenever possible, write PERL. Although most of the people who hang out in the Perl community would write that as: 1. Whenever possible, write "Perl". :-) All-uppercase tips you off as a newbie. Perl is not an acronym, but more like a retro-nym. (Name invented first, and what it "means" invented afterwards in the typical computer hacker style.) -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 04:57:07 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DCrc113081 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:53:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from bunrab.catwhisker.org (adsl-63-193-123-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.123.122]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DCrVK13071 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:53:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from david@localhost) by bunrab.catwhisker.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1DCrUK35812; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:53:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:53:30 -0800 (PST) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <200202131253.g1DCrUK35812@bunrab.catwhisker.org> To: zvr@pobox.com Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <20020213130739.A18166@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr> X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:07:39 +0200 >From: Alexios Zavras >Does anyone have examples of really great shell scripting ? >I mean dealing with things like different environments, >availability of commands, checking status of commands, etc. >In my experience, creating a truly portable (and useful) >script, to be used reliably in a variety of environments, >is a task that is usually left "as an exercise" -- most >scripts rely on so many assumptions that the environment >is sane and most things "just work"... Take a look at what Henry Spencer & Geoff Collyer did when they wrote C News (usenet transport suite). I expect it's a bit dated by now, but the techniques they used will serve well. (Yes, much of it is /bin/sh scripts. And it was *significantly* less resource-intensive, and thus faster, than B News, for an equivalent environment. I remember the switch: my machine became usable again.) Point an FTP client at ftp.uu.net:/networking/news/cnews/c-news.tar.Z. Cheers, david (links to my resume at http://www.catwhisker.org/~david) -- David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org I believe it would be irresponsible (and thus, unethical) for me to advise, recommend, or support the use of any product that is or depends on any Microsoft product for any purpose other than personal amusement. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 05:01:53 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DCx9c13127 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:59:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls4.std.com [199.172.62.106]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DCx8K13123 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:59:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell.TheWorld.com (root@shell01.TheWorld.com [199.172.62.241]) by TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA11320 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:59:07 -0500 Received: (from adamm@localhost) by shell.TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA335445 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:59:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202131259.HAA335445@shell.TheWorld.com> Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting To: sage-members@usenix.org (SAGE Members) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:59:07 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <200202130411.UAA11472@biz.compata.com> from "Dave Close" at Feb 12, 2002 08:11:08 PM From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In reply to my posting, Dave Close wrote: > I concur with avoiding csh scripts. But that does NOT mean that sh scripts > are likely to run on "damned near any" system. The most common thing in a > script is an invocation of a binary program, and, unfortunately, many of > those differ substantially between systems Again, POSIX.2 is the answer: If your script adheres to the POSIX standard, and all the programs you call from within your script adhere to this same standard, then your script is going to have a better-than- average "portability rating." Unfortunately, POSIX is SORELY LACKING in the area of systems administration. :-( One can get around this by building a "compatibility layer" of scripts, small programs, and shell functions to cover the differences between systems, but it's a pain in the ass to have to do so, and it's a non-trivial bit of coding to do it well. AdamM From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 05:28:33 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DDQGS13269 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 05:26:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from tiku.hut.fi (tiku.hut.fi [130.233.228.86]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DDQEK13265 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 05:26:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from carmen.hut.fi (jannek@carmen.hut.fi [130.233.200.85]) by tiku.hut.fi (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00046; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:26:10 +0200 (EET) Received: (from jannek@localhost) by carmen.hut.fi (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA11046; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:26:09 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:26:09 +0200 From: Janne Korkkula To: Todd Williams Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] root shell / su (was: shell scripting) Message-ID: <20020213152609.D8970@cc.hut.fi> References: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk>; from twilliams@answerfinancial.com on Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 02:24:51AM -0800 X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 13.02. 02:24, Todd Williams wrote: > Now, what's the best practice for dealing with the shell environment > after you su to root? Just remember to type tcsh every time? Modify > root's startup files? Create an alternate root account that uses tcsh > as it's default shell? We've found the best practice to be not using su (or root logins) except when Absolutely necessary. Sudo is a very nice replacement. http://www.courtesan.com/sudo/ Other than that, # exec zsh IMHO, customizing root's login files is just another way to shoot yourself in the foot. -- Janne Korkkula Helsinki University of Technology, Computing Centre jk@hut.fi tel. +358 9 451 4314 http://www.hut.fi/cc/u/jannek/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 06:34:46 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DEVsl13661 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:31:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.netmeister.org (netmeister.org [216.254.69.93]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DEVqK13657 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:31:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from jschauma by www.netmeister.org with local (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 16b0Rt-0004Qm-00 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:31:53 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:31:53 -0500 From: Jan Schaumann To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting Message-ID: <20020213143152.GA16916@netmeister.org> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Todd Williams wrote: > I'd say the "best practices" are: > 1. Whenever possible, write PERL. I disagree. Use whatever is appropriate for the task at hand - often, that my be perl, but similarly often a /bin/sh-script will be just fine (or better). What's the saying in english - "Shooting with cannons on sparrows"? > Now, what's the best practice for dealing with the shell environment > after you su to root? Just remember to type tcsh every time? Modify > root's startup files? Create an alternate root account that uses tcsh > as it's default shell? I'd say: use whatever shell root has per default on that system. -Jan -- finger jschauma@netmeister.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 06:36:17 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DEY8B13685 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:34:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from trickle.cc.mcgill.ca (trickle.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.27.51]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DEY6K13681 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:34:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from rna.mcgill.ca (rna.McGill.CA [132.206.27.47]) by trickle.cc.mcgill.ca (8.12.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g1DEXwKQ017252 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:34:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from guiness.CC.McGill.CA (guiness.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.35.24]) by rna.mcgill.ca (8.12.0/8.12.0) with ESMTP id g1DEXwHp022202; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:33:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:33:53 -0500 (EST) From: Ron Hall To: "Randal L. Schwartz" cc: Todd Williams , "'jeff@colltech.com'" , gamaya@delaluz.net, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > > 1. Whenever possible, write "Perl". actually it's probably closer to "think" in perl first, the executation comes easy :) After many years of writing filters using awk, sed, sh, tr cut, paste, col and whatever else showed up. I was very happy when I finally "bite the bullet" and started writing perl code. I still write the odd sh/awk mess and I certainly have no trouble with rc files, so going through the process of sh scripting certainly help some. Though I find myself doing more and more perl --- and thinking more and more in perl. This is somewhat scary, but hey that's the way of the world. > All-uppercase tips you off as a newbie. Perl is not an acronym, but > more like a retro-nym. (Name invented first, and what it "means" > invented afterwards in the typical computer hacker style.) > perl may be retro-nymic (??!?!?!), but as an acronym it is flexible enough to allow for a multitude of interpretations: Perplexing Egrep Replacement Language - This is how I first used it Programming extensible Regexp Language - I started getting more sophisticated Programming Environment for Running List extraction As you see as I started doing different things - perl took on new meanings..... only goes to show TIMTOWDTI rules. HTH As Always r From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 06:36:53 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DEYiB13707 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:34:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from trinity.fluff.org (mail@trinity.fluff.org [194.153.168.225]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DEYgK13703 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:34:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from ajr by trinity.fluff.org with local (Exim 3.12) id 16b0Ub-0006dp-00 for sage-members@usenix.org ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:34:41 +0000 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:34:41 +0000 From: Ade Rixon To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting Message-ID: <20020213143441.J1634@trinity.fluff.org> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk> <20020212182726.GB7400@netmeister.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020212182726.GB7400@netmeister.org>; from jschauma@netbsd.org on Tue, Feb 12, 2002 at 01:27:26PM -0500 X-Home-Page: http://www.big-bubbles.home.dhs.org/ X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk 12 Feb 01:27:26 PM: Meanwhile in the Sheraton, Jan Schaumann wrote: > To get the basics, you can probably work with the bash-HOWTO's from > http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/Bash-Prog-Intro-HOWTO.html and > http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/Adv-Bash-Scr-HOWTO/index.html >-- End of excerpt from Jan Schaumann Ignore the "Adv", this guide covers the basics too and is fairly comprehensive. However, it doesn't explicitly cover portability or defensive programming. 13 Feb 02:24:51 AM: Meanwhile in the Sheraton, Todd Williams wrote: > Now, what's the best practice for dealing with the shell environment > after you su to root? >-- End of excerpt from Todd Williams I use the following script, called "nsu", to change to root under bash with root's environment & profile: #!/bin/sh suser=${1:-'root'} HOME=/ export HOME if [ "${SHELL}" = "" ]; then SHELL=/bin/bash fi exec su ${suser} -c $SHELL For bonus points, one should probably modify it to get the home directory from /etc/passwd and check for the existence of the shell binary. Ade_ / -- |Ade Rixon|http://www.big-bubbles.home.dhs.org/|ade.rixon@big-bubbles.fluff.org| Goth is dead - but that was always the point, wasn't it? From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 06:39:03 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DEaoK13752 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:36:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from denali.loopback.net (durham-ar1-020-023.durham.dsl.gtei.net [4.40.20.23]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DEamK13748 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:36:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bandregg@localhost) by denali.loopback.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1DEZYL18093; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:35:34 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:35:34 -0500 From: "Bryan C. Andregg" To: Janne Korkkula Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting Message-ID: <20020213093534.Q6808@loopback.net> References: <20020212211232.A2203@cc.hut.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4OpS+d6oOtUQaRm1" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020212211232.A2203@cc.hut.fi>; from jk@hut.fi on Tue, Feb 12, 2002 at 09:12:32PM +0200 X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --4OpS+d6oOtUQaRm1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Feb 12, 2002 at 09:12:32PM +0200, Janne Korkkula mailed: > Linux isn't an option, since > it doesn't usually even come with a standard shell... Linux distributions usually ship bash, which happily takes the --posix opti= on making it behave quite standardly, I believe. --=20 Bryan C. Andregg "As Slow as Possible, http://www.loopback.net As Fast as Necessary." gpg 1024D/24BF71A9 D862 18C1 0B31 E09E 1180 D8DC 8FDA 4497 24BF 71A9 --4OpS+d6oOtUQaRm1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8anm2j9pElyS/cakRAiW5AJ44j4z4+n8ewZnRxDySrUoQKVDvAACfa4Zf yy7yLXRota0daIao0g3geNY= =8aJK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4OpS+d6oOtUQaRm1-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 06:41:20 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DEd7A13782 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:39:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from denali.loopback.net (durham-ar1-020-023.durham.dsl.gtei.net [4.40.20.23]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DEd5K13778 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:39:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bandregg@localhost) by denali.loopback.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1DEcEK18156; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:38:14 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:38:14 -0500 From: "Bryan C. Andregg" To: Todd Williams Cc: "'jeff@colltech.com'" , gamaya@delaluz.net, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting Message-ID: <20020213093814.R6808@loopback.net> References: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ABYnUdqoGSokwVM+" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk>; from twilliams@answerfinancial.com on Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 02:24:51AM -0800 X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --ABYnUdqoGSokwVM+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 02:24:51AM -0800, Todd Williams mailed: > I surprised more people aren't saying things like "Shell? Get a life! > We all use PERL now!" >=20 > I'd say the "best practices" are: > 1. Whenever possible, write PERL. > 2. Learn enough /bin/sh to read rc files and stuff. > 3. It's OK to use tcsh as your login shell, but don't program in it. Ugh. I don't even work on machines that lack perl but this is just horrible advice. I have watched way too many good sysadmins spend way too much time writing in perl what the OS provides in the way of tools already. The heart= of UNIX is small, simple tools that do their job and do it well. --=20 Bryan C. Andregg "As Slow as Possible, http://www.loopback.net As Fast as Necessary." gpg 1024D/24BF71A9 D862 18C1 0B31 E09E 1180 D8DC 8FDA 4497 24BF 71A9 --ABYnUdqoGSokwVM+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8anpWj9pElyS/cakRAtCpAJ0SnPNALPdA1EP7z2uUB7YAqUZQWACbBGSH F1o8BspLDRRF4x0pAGFyuaM= =krwY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ABYnUdqoGSokwVM+-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 06:45:59 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DEhnH13819 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:43:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from web14910.mail.yahoo.com (web14910.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.225.62]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g1DEhlK13814 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:43:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020213144347.23172.qmail@web14910.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [164.109.8.241] by web14910.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:43:47 PST Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:43:47 -0800 (PST) From: David R Hartley Subject: [SAGE] Fwd: SHELLdorado Newsletter: 1/2002 - February 13, 2002 To: Sage members MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This stuff is so good I just had to send it to the list. Bon appetite! --- Heiner Steven wrote: > From Heiner Steven Tue Feb 12 15:59:27 2002 > Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:59:27 +0100 > From: Heiner Steven > To: drhartley2002@yahoo.com > Subject: SHELLdorado Newsletter: 1/2002 - February 13, 2002 > > SHELLdorado Newsletter 1/2002 - February 13th, 2002 > > ================================================================ > The "SHELLdorado Newsletter" covers UNIX shell script related > topics. To subscribe to this newsletter, leave your e-mail > address at the SHELLdorado home page: > > http://www.shelldorado.com/ > > View previous issues at the following location: > > http://www.shelldorado.com/newsletter/ > > "Heiner's SHELLdorado" is a place for UNIX shell script > programmers providing > > Many shell script examples, > shell scripting tips & tricks + more... > ================================================================ > > This issue focuses on Korn Shell 93 > > Contents > > o Editorial > o How to use associative arrays > o How to get string lengths and sub-strings > o How to create easy counting loops with the new "for" syntax > o How to access variables by name using "typeset -n" > o How to use the built-in printf command > o Q&A: Where can I find more articles about ksh93? > o Q&A: How can I write my own POP3 e-mail client using ksh? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Editorial > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Much has changed since Stephen "Steve" R. Bourne wrote his > command line interpreter the "Bourne Shell", or just "sh". > David Korn rewrote it from scratch, adding new features on > his way. The result, KornShell 88 (named after the year it > was published) is available on almost any UNIX system today. > > This issue of the SHELLdorado Newsletter focuses on the > latest version of the KornShell: KornShell 93 (or "ksh93"). > Many people already know and value the shell as the base of > the "dtksh" shell, which comes as part of the "Common > Desktop Environment" CDE for many UNIX systems, e.g. Solaris > or AIX (search for /usr/dt/bin/dtksh). > > ksh93 is not only a new version of the old KornShell with > many new features particularly for shell script programmers: > it could become the new standard shell for all new UNIX > systems, including Linux. > > The source code is now available, together with pre-compiled > binaries for many UNIX systems, including MacOS, Linux, > FreeBSD, HP-UX, AIX, Linux, Solaris, SCO UnixWare and > even Windows (for use with U/WIN emulation): > > http://www.research.att.com/sw/download/ > > If you are not interested in ksh93, you may still find the > small POP3 e-mail client written in "conventional" KornShell > (ksh88) interesting. > > If you have comments or suggestions for this newsletter, or > even want to write an article by your own, please write me > an e-mail. > > Heiner Steven, Editor > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > >> How to use associative arrays > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > An associative array is an array indexed by a string. This > lets us easily create lookup tables, e.g. a table containing > the full names of all users given their login id: > > typeset -A name # "name" is an array > > # Input consists of fields separated by a colon (':') > OIFS=$IFS; IFS=: > while read login pw uid gid fullname ignore > do > name[$login]=$fullname > done < /etc/passwd > IFS=$OIFS > > # $login sequentially contains all indices from name[] > for login in ${!name[@]} > do > print "$login: ${name[$login]}" > done > > This prints e.g. > > root: root > nobody: nobody > lp: Printing daemon > heiner: Heiner Steven > [...] > > Within the script, print ${name[heiner]} could be used to > print the full name of the user with the login id "heiner". > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > >> How to get string lengths and sub-strings > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Some frequent string manipulations get easier with ksh93. > The length of each string can be printed in the following > way: > > a="Heiner's SHELLdorado" > $ print ${#a} # string length > 20 > > $ print ${a:9} # string starting with position 9 > SHELLdorado > > $ print ${a:9:5} # starting with position 9; 5 characters > SHELL > > Even "sed" like substitutions are available. The following > command replaces all "U" characters in the variable "a" with > an "X" in the output: > > $ print ${a//U/X} > > These command make string manipulation not just easier, > but also much faster. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > >> How to create easy counting loops with the new "for" syntax > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > The old Bourne shell forced us to write code like the > following for simple tasks as counting from 1 to 10: > > i=1 > while [ $i -le 10 ] > do > echo $i > i=`expr $i + 1` > done > > Compare this to the new ksh93 syntax: > > integer i > for (( i=1; i<=10; i++ )) > do > echo $i > done > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > >> How to access variables by name using "typeset -n" > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sometimes it's useful to specify the name of a variable as > an argument to a function, e.g. > > getstring firstname "First Name:" > > The function "getstring" should read a string from the user, > and return the result in our variable "firstname". This used > to be solved with "eval", but ksh93 has an easier solution: > > function getstring { # varname promptstring > typeset -n vname=$1 > typeset prompt=${2-"?"} > > print -u2 "$prompt\c" > read vname > } > > Since "vname" contains the name of a variable (not its > value), all manipulations on "vname" change the value of the > variable specified as an argument to the function. > > Without "typeset -n" we would have written the function > similar to the following example: > > getstring () { # varname promptstring > vname=$1 > prompt=${2-"?"} > > echo -n "$prompt" >&2 > read answer > eval "$vname=\"$answer\"" > } > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > >> How to use the built-in printf command > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Why should we use yet another version of the "printf" > command? Many systems already have a version in /usr/bin. > > Well, one advantage of printf being a built-in is, that the > behaviour of the function is system-independent, and ksh93 > programmers can rely on its existence. > > But this built-in version of printf is special in some other > ways, too: > > o If there are more arguments than formats in the format > string, the format string is reused. This can be used > e.g. to replace "cut" in some places: > > cut -c1,10 < /etc/passwd > > to list the first 10 characters of each line in > /etc/passwd can be rewritten in the following way: > > printf ".10s\n" /etc/passwd > > o It can convert regular expressions to shell patterns, > and vice versa: > > $ printf "%P\n" "a(b|c)x" > *a@(b|c)x* > > $ printf "%R\n" "*a@(b|c)x*" > a(b|c)x > > o "printf" can help quoting: > > $ printf "%q\n" "Heiner's SHELLdorado" > $'Heiner\'s SHELLdorado' > > ...and printf even knows something about HTML and XML, and > how to expand special characters in a way suitable for HTML > text: > > $ printf "%H\n" "" > <Tips & Tricks> > > Well, that does not look too readable, but we are not the > interpreters targeted ;-) A web browser knows how to convert > these "character entities" to a readable representation. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Q&A: Where can I find more articles about ksh93? > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > The KornShell 93 is available free of charge from AT&T > Labs-Research: > > http://www.research.att.com/sw/download/ > > A concise list of the new features of ksh93 is listed > in the following article: > > http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~jlk/ksh93.html > > The author of the shell, David Korn, maintains a web site > with many more articles: > > http://www.kornshell.com/ > > A description of the new features of ksh93 from the Linux > Journal: > > http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=1273 > > A manual page > > http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~jlk/kornshell/doc/man93.html > > Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ): > > http://www.kornshell.com/doc/faq.html > > Many more links to shell scripts and shell scripting related > articles are available at the SHELLdorado Links section: > > http://www.shelldorado.com/links/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Q&A: How can I write my own POP3 e-mail client using ksh? > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sometimes these viruses (like "SirCam") can really be > annoying. They make completely strangers send you 3 MB > holiday pictures, or some 5 MB audio file you did not ask > for. Most POP3 e-mail clients (like Netscape) will download > the files from the server to your local file system before > allowing the relieving click on the "delete" button. > > In these cases the following script is useful: it can delete > files directly on the POP3 e-mail server, before they reach > the local hard disk. It can also list the e-mails, and > display them one by one. > > The script will certainly not replace your e-mail > application of choice, but it may be useful for the purpose > stated above, or just as an example of KornShell > co-processes. > > Note that the script does NOT require ksh93, it should run > with any KornShell dialect. > > #! /usr/bin/ksh > # popc.ksh - example of a POP3 e-mail client written in KornShell > # Heiner Steven, heiner@shelldorado.com > # > # This example implements the "LIST" command to list all messages, > # "RETR" to retrieve a message text by number, and "DELE" to delete > # a message by number. > # > # Refer to RFC 1939 (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1939.txt) for a full > # description of the POP3 protocol. > # > # Needs the non-standard program "netcat" (aka "nc") to establish a > # TCP connection. You could use "socket(1)" instead, if installed. > > host=localhost # Name or address of POP3 server > port=110 # POP3 port (standard is 110) > user=${USER:-$LOGNAME} > pass=dontsay > > typeset -u pop_status # Global last status { "+OK" | "-ERR" } > typeset pop_msg # Global last server status message > > function Fatal { print -u2 "$@"; exit 1; } > > # sendline - send one line to co-process > > function sendline { print -p -- "$@"; } > > # getack - get positive or negative acknowledgement from server > # > # The server will answer with either "+OK ..." or "-ERR ...". We > # evaluate the first word read from the server, and set the > # return value accordingly > > function getack { > read -p -r pop_status pop_msg; print -u2 "DEBUG: $pop_status $pop_msg" > [[ $pop_status == '+OK' ]] && return 0 > print -u2 -- "$pop_status $pop_msg" > return 1 > } > > # getlist - get multi-line response from server > # > # Multi-line responses are terminated by a line consisting only of > # a period '.' > > function getlist { > typeset line > > while read -p -r line > do > line=${line%+(?)} # Remove trailing CR (ASCII 13) > [[ $line == '.' ]] && break # End of list > print -- "<$line>" > done > } > > function ListCmd { > sendline "LIST" > getack && getlist > } > > function DeleteCmd { > integer msgno > > read msgno?"DELETE message Number: " > sendline "DELE $msgno" && getack > } > > function RetrieveCmd { > integer msgno > > read msgno?"Retrieve message Number: " > sendline "RETR $msgno" > getack && getlist > } > > # Startup the server as a co-process. We will use "print -p" > # and "read -p" to write and read data. > > netcat "$host" "$port" |& popdpid=$! > > # Check if the server is ready > getack || Fatal "cannot start POP3 server $host:$port" > > # Authentication > > set -e # First error terminates script > sendline "USER $user" && getack > sendline "PASS $pass" && getack > set +e > > print -u2 "Authentication successful" > PS3="POP3 command (RETURN prints menu): " > select choice in List Retrieve Delete Quit > do > case "$choice" in > (List) ListCmd ;; > (Retrieve) RetrieveCmd ;; > (Delete) DeleteCmd ;; > (Quit) break;; > esac > done > > # Shut down co-process > exec 3<&p 3>&p # redirect co-process fd to fd 3 > exec 3<&- 3>&- # close fd 3 > kill $popdpid >/dev/null 2>&1 # if the above does not work... > > exit 0 > > [Download location for "netcat": > ftp://ftp.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/org/uni-s/rus/security/unix/hobbit/nc110.tgz > > Check your local system first; many systems (e.g. Linux) > already have this program installed. > > The script was tested with pdksh v5.2.14 99/07/13.2 > (Linux) and ksh93 Version M 1993-12-28 m (Linux).] > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > The examples were tested using Linux 2.4 and KornShell 93 > Version M 1993-12-28 m. Use "print ${.sh.version}" to find your > ksh93 revision number. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > If you want to comment on the newsletter, have suggestions for > new topics to be covered in one of the next issues, or even want > to submit an article of your own, send an e-mail to > > mailto:heiner.steven@shelldorado.com > > ================================================================ > To unsubscribe send a mail with the body "unsubscribe" to > newsletter@shelldorado.com > ================================================================ ===== David R Hartley drhartley2002@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 07:09:44 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DF7GS14052 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:07:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from wally.eecs.harvard.edu (wally.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.30]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DF7FK14048 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:07:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (trey@localhost) by wally.eecs.harvard.edu (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id g1DF79W16107; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:07:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:07:09 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris To: "Adam S. Moskowitz" cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting In-Reply-To: <200202122015.PAA242839@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Regarding portability, I have to take a slightly different tack from Adam. My experience is that it is easier to write a Perl script that runs the same on all Perl 5 versions on all Unix-like systems than it is to write a shell script that does the same. This is because a large part of shell scripts tends to be calling external binaries, where the variance between operating systems can be acute. Yes, the shell syntax itself doesn't vary if you use a compliant Bourne shell, but you still have to run uname or some such and do switches whenever a command differs. Adam's right that POSIX.2 really helps here. But I think that most of the sage-members audience are likely to be using the systems administration commands, which are the ones that are really lacking specification in POSIX. On the other hand, by adding just one dependency, "Perl 5", you can gain a high degree of interoperability. Once you learn Perl well (I assume the same would be true of Python or Ruby) you can forego any external commands, with the exception of some third-party apps or highly OS -specific or critical utilities like fsck or mkfs. (In practice, while there's some overlap here with the non-POSIX sysadmin commands, it's a much smaller subset, so often you can get away from the command differences by writing it in Perl. And the Perl core libraries already take most such differences into account.) I think the added dependency is well worth it. -- Trey Harris Secretary and Executive SAGE -- The System Administrators Guild (www.sage.org) Opinions above are not necessarily those of SAGE. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 07:41:30 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DFclu14355 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:38:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from new.gerasimov.net ([209.143.70.150]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DFcjK14351 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:38:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from alban@localhost) by new.gerasimov.net (8.11.2/8.8.7) id g1DFbSg02556 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:37:28 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:37:28 -0800 From: David Alban To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] qw( PERL Perl perl ) [was: shell scripting] Message-ID: <20020213073728.C2306@new.gerasimov.net> References: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="adJ1OR3c6QgCpb/j" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from merlyn@stonehenge.com on Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 04:42:45AM -0800 X-PGP-Key: http://www.gerasimov.net/~alban/pubkey X-PGP-Fingerprint: 708D 7772 46D0 BA64 766C 4AE1 3E1D 0CF5 CFCE A5D0 X-Use-Encryption: Encrypted email preferred (see www.gnupg.org) X-Face: 8N^s_ziVG$"ao@BcKmBF=t4&c3vD3:LtY!R|y^ofD; !WF[d|}7KWZ*ePLklxt{#S@-vG2~V 73Ifz$gEQfp>-yO:IwC1*#amvy_LFVk}S*V"LD2aPBA9FLYY)P?(@Db0>`kMr6Y8@Pyx7dR*J(%Dkd *cEU*SJbOn9ye>g/,)gy%icZ{5f|elm=li#zIvYpZufyLH2FdY,/|; 1no}+gkjxbjXms2nkhe0"G!Z 3'#2G8Kv~DI|58]T X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --adJ1OR3c6QgCpb/j Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 2002/02/13/04:42 -0800 Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > All-uppercase tips you off as a newbie. Perl is not an acronym, but > more like a retro-nym. (Name invented first, and what it "means" > invented afterwards in the typical computer hacker style.) On the other hand, I frequently refer to the language itself by the basename of its executable, preferring lower case to title case. I'm sure to be banned in many perl circles. :-) On the previous hand, however, I too dislike it when people SHOUT at the computer in all caps. --=20 Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. --adJ1OR3c6QgCpb/j Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8aog4Ph0M9c/OpdARApTsAJ0TEQnaGNOVHwUx/KFGwmocMuRLnwCfavR5 yMBBP9QcNKFdhttiw1Vf3tE= =t+PV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --adJ1OR3c6QgCpb/j-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 07:49:14 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DFkw714412 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:46:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from new.gerasimov.net ([209.143.70.150]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DFktK14408 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:46:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from alban@localhost) by new.gerasimov.net (8.11.2/8.8.7) id g1DFjdF02591 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:45:39 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:45:39 -0800 From: David Alban To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting Message-ID: <20020213074539.D2306@new.gerasimov.net> References: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ZARJHfwaSJQLOEUz" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk>; from twilliams@answerfinancial.com on Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 02:24:51AM -0800 X-PGP-Key: http://www.gerasimov.net/~alban/pubkey X-PGP-Fingerprint: 708D 7772 46D0 BA64 766C 4AE1 3E1D 0CF5 CFCE A5D0 X-Use-Encryption: Encrypted email preferred (see www.gnupg.org) X-Face: 8N^s_ziVG$"ao@BcKmBF=t4&c3vD3:LtY!R|y^ofD; !WF[d|}7KWZ*ePLklxt{#S@-vG2~V 73Ifz$gEQfp>-yO:IwC1*#amvy_LFVk}S*V"LD2aPBA9FLYY)P?(@Db0>`kMr6Y8@Pyx7dR*J(%Dkd *cEU*SJbOn9ye>g/,)gy%icZ{5f|elm=li#zIvYpZufyLH2FdY,/|; 1no}+gkjxbjXms2nkhe0"G!Z 3'#2G8Kv~DI|58]T X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --ZARJHfwaSJQLOEUz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 2002/02/13/02:24 -0800 Todd Williams wro= te: > Lots of good ideas and books were mentioned in this thread, but I > expected more answers like Jeff's below. >=20 > I surprised more people aren't saying things like "Shell? Get a life! > We all use PERL now!" It's frustrating sometimes when people respond to your question (How do I do foo?) by saying "Don't do foo! Do bar!". I imagine that folks were answering the question in terms of foo. > 2. Learn enough /bin/sh to read rc files and stuff. Hmmm... One needs to learn much more than this amount if one is going to maintain or customize init.d/ scripts. David --=20 Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. --ZARJHfwaSJQLOEUz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8aoojPh0M9c/OpdARAmNXAKCTLMvsNFEHFKWYB83eMkDWMj+drwCgj4H7 +9gWNZat1K0kEj6p06/dN/0= =CdRl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ZARJHfwaSJQLOEUz-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 07:54:44 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DFqYn14491 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:52:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from yar.midnightlinux.com (yar.midnightlinux.com [216.254.93.242]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DFqWK14487 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:52:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jo2y@localhost) by yar.midnightlinux.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA30694 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:57:54 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:57:54 -0500 (EST) From: "James O'Kane" To: Subject: [SAGE] Offsite storage recommendations Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I'm trying to find a service in the Pittsburgh, PA area that will do weekly pickups of our backup tapes and return with the next set in the rotation. Currently we are using a safe deposit box at a nearby bank, but the space has filled up quickly. I've done a few google searches, but nothing I've tried seems to bring up relevent companies. Does anyone have either suggestions on how to find such a service or have recommendations of companies they have used who service Pittsburgh? thanks -james From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 08:46:32 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DGh7b15265 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:43:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DGh7s15260 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:43:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from inet-mta3.gmsmail.com (inet-mta3.gmsmail.com [57.250.220.33]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1D9E8K11681 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from darth.transport.alstom.com ([57.67.17.5]) by inet-mta3.gmsmail.com (InterMail vK.4.02.00.07.1 201-232-116-107-101 license ea40361cfd6d99c1eb9133ffea519497) with ESMTP id <20020213091357.QBFI18578.inet-mta3@darth.transport.alstom.com> for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:13:57 +0000 Received: from mz03world.transport.alstom.com (mz03world [159.217.150.18]) by darth.transport.alstom.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11261 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:13:56 +0100 (MET) From: ed.rolison@itc.alstom.com Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:13:18 +0000 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MZ03WORLD/GECALSTHOM(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 02/13/2002 10:13:56 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Unfortunately, its the GNU tools which breaks the portability of shell scripts (IMHO). The problem being, things like gnu grep, gnu tar etc have 'extended' features - which for those of us running 'standard' distributions of solaris (and I guess a number of other os) means that they break. I know you could install gnu tools all over the place, but IIRC a lot of 'stuff' is covered by the posix standard. (I'd imagine a number of OS vendors do the same but GNU is the one which I've been tripped over by on a number of occasions) Of course my personal gripe is with openssh/ssl which _needs_ perl to install. On a prod server, we don't do perl, and we do like ssh. And the reason? To emulate mkdir -p (so using something optional, to emulate something else that's optional.) sh and POSIX are the true way IMHO. Perl is nice and good and powerful, but standard stuff where you can be confident you won't have compatability problems is going to make your life _much_ easier. Dave Close @usenix.org on 13/02/2002 04:11:08 Sent by: owner-sage-members@usenix.org To: sage-members@usenix.org cc: Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting "Adam S. Moskowitz" wrote: >There's something to be said for writing shell scripts that have >a very high likelihood of running on damned near any modern Unix machine >you're likely to come across. I concur with avoiding csh scripts. But that does NOT mean that sh scripts are likely to run on "damned near any" system. The most common thing in a script is an invocation of a binary program, and, unfortunately, many of those differ substantially between systems, in syntax, function, and location. Making a truly portable script is a much more involved process than choosing the language. -- Dave Close, Compata, Costa Mesa CA +1 714 434 7359 dave@compata.com dhclose@alumni.caltech.edu "..the last seven decades of the twentieth century will be characterized in history as the dark ages of theoretical physics." -- Carver Mead CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 08:51:48 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DGndH15386 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:49:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from dpbox.dhs.org (dsl-216-227-100-85.telocity.com [216.227.100.85]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DGnbK15381 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:49:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from vector.usa.net (vector [192.168.0.50]) by dpbox.dhs.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g1DG59A25512 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:05:09 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020213104739.00a664a0@pop.netaddress.com> X-Sender: dpuryear@pop.netaddress.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:49:28 -0600 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Dustin Puryear Subject: [SAGE] Load-sharing or -balancing across DSL lines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We are looking into getting several DSL lines for performance reasons. We serve some web sites, although we aren't a public web hosting service, and would like to load-balance across the DSL lines if possible. Has anyone done this? If so, how? This should be similar to load-balancing/sharing across any other kind of line really. We are using FreeBSD. Did you do this using FreeBSD, Linux, or another host-based router or did you have to buy specific gear to handle it? Hints, comments, suggestions? I am just now starting to dig around, and am just fishing for suggestions. Regards, Dustin --- Dustin Puryear Information Systems Contractor http://members.telocity.com/~dpuryear PGP Key available at http://www.us.pgp.net In the beginning the Universe was created. This has been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 08:59:40 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DGvMq15487 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:57:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from halfdome.holdit.com (IDENT:merlyn@halfdome.holdit.com [209.102.105.64]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DGvLK15483 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:57:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from merlyn@localhost) by halfdome.holdit.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA32176; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:57:18 -0800 To: David Alban Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] qw( PERL Perl perl ) [was: shell scripting] References: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk> <20020213073728.C2306@new.gerasimov.net> From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: 13 Feb 2002 08:57:18 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20020213073728.C2306@new.gerasimov.net> Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "David" == David Alban writes: David> On the other hand, I frequently refer to the language itself by the David> basename of its executable, preferring lower case to title case. I'm David> sure to be banned in many perl circles. :-) To be honest, Larry had first started using that, but when I was writing the Camel, I saw the name disappear into paragraphs far too often, so I suggested to him that we re-title the language "Perl" and leave perl as the name of the executable that runs Perl, and so thus it stands today. If you're lucky enough to have a classic Camel, notice the cover. It's "Programming perl", not "Programming Perl", because the cover art was frozen before we made that choice. "Learning Perl" a few years later reflects the updated typography. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 09:03:00 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DH0mw15548 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:00:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.well.com (smtp.well.com [206.14.209.7]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DH0lK15544 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from well.com (nobody@well.com [206.14.209.5]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA05703 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:00:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jbd@localhost) by well.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA21968 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:00:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:00:42 -0800 (PST) From: Justin Dossey To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Pathetically Eclectic Rubbish Lister -- :Justin From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 09:44:13 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DHfe816105 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:41:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from castle.org (root@castle.org [63.231.56.81]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DHfdK16101 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:41:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from castle.org (nomad@localhost.castle.org [127.0.0.1]) by castle.org (8.12.0/8.12.0) with ESMTP id g1DHfbHL029743 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:41:37 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200202131741.g1DHfbHL029743@castle.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] root best practices In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 13 Feb 2002 02:24:51 -0800. <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk> X-uri: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:41:37 -0800 From: Lee Damon X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Now, what's the best practice for dealing with the shell environment > after you su to root? Just remember to type tcsh every time? Modify > root's startup files? Create an alternate root account that uses tcsh > as it's default shell? The best practice: 1. DO NOT su to root 2. use sudo 3. See #1 4. Leave root's environment as *clean* as possible. No different shell, nothing in the path that doesn't come from the / partition. It is your last hope for system recovery, and you don't want it to hang on log in. 5. See #1. nomad ----------- - Lee "nomad" Damon - \ play: nomad@castle.org or castle!nomad \ work: nomad@ee.washington.edu \ /\ Seneschal, Castle PAUS. / \ "Celebrate Diversity" / \ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 09:47:59 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DHjmN16165 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:45:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from raptor-qfe0.answerfinancial.com ([208.236.100.231]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g1DHjlK16161 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:45:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.2.0.11] by raptor-qfe0.answerfinancial.com via smtpd (for voyager.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) with SMTP; 13 Feb 2002 17:36:34 UT Received: by us-cp-ml02.answerfinancial.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:46:48 -0800 Message-ID: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A24B@mail-cpk> From: Todd Williams To: "'merlyn@stonehenge.com'" Cc: "'jeff@colltech.com'" , gamaya@delaluz.net, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] shell scripting Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:46:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Randal corrected: > All-uppercase tips you off as a newbie. Uh, maybe not. I've been writing perl(1) since the days when Larry made public appearances in his cranberry tuxedo. I don't know why I find myself writing perl(1) in all caps. Must be for EMPHASIS or something, since whenever I say it, I think I actually do shout. But you have to shout Perl! if you want these MCSEs to hear you. :-) -Todd From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 09:52:33 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DHoLw16246 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:50:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from lanning.cc ([63.166.8.14]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DHoKK16242 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:50:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lanning@localhost) by lanning.cc (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g1DHoCr30653; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:50:12 -0800 From: Robert Hajime Lanning Message-Id: <200202131750.g1DHoCr30653@lanning.cc> Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting To: zvr@pobox.com (Alexios Zavras) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:50:10 -0800 (PST) Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <20020213130739.A18166@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr> from "Alexios Zavras" at Feb 13, 2002 01:07:39 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk check out the "configure" script (autoconf, automake) of most newer utilities that are available as opensource. ---- As written by Alexios Zavras: > > David Wolfskill wrote [edited]: > > I suggest that you examine existing shell scripts on your system(s) -- > > see /etc for examples. Note that there are often things done in these > > scripts whose purposes may not be readily apparent; nevertheless, they > > need to run, and run reliably. To the extent that this is one of your > > more important requirements, you should be able to learn much from them. > > Does anyone have examples of really great shell scripting ? > I mean dealing with things like different environments, > availability of commands, checking status of commands, etc. > In my experience, creating a truly portable (and useful) > script, to be used reliably in a variety of environments, > is a task that is usually left "as an exercise" -- most > scripts rely on so many assumptions that the environment > is sane and most things "just work"... > > -- > -- zvr -- > -- +---------------------------+ Alexios Zavras (-zvr-) > | H eytyxia den exei enoxes | zvr@pobox.com > +-----------------------zvr-+ > -- END OF LINE. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 10:41:51 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DIbO516857 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from dns2.dreamworks.com (garm.dreamworks.com [64.173.252.34]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DIbNK16853 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:37:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.anim.dreamworks.com (mail.anim.dreamworks.com [192.168.4.50]) by dns2.dreamworks.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA05282; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:37:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from anim.dreamworks.com (lovelace.anim.dreamworks.com [192.168.1.66]) by mail.anim.dreamworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10842; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:37:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3C6AB25B.EC8FE93A@anim.dreamworks.com> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:37:15 -0800 From: Skottie Miller X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.9-21smp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "James O'Kane" CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Offsite storage recommendations References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk James O'Kane wrote: > > I'm trying to find a service in the Pittsburgh, PA area that will do > weekly pickups of our backup tapes and return with the next set in the > rotation. Currently we are using a safe deposit box at a nearby bank, > but the space has filled up quickly. http://www.ironmountain.com/index.htm Way more than just backup tape rotation. We use 'em for all our physical media (paper, paintings, film) and medium-to-long term digital media. -Skottie -- Scott Miller | Animation Technology work: skottie@dreamworks.com | Dreamworks Feature Animation life: skottie@pobox.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 12:18:52 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DKDpu18183 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:13:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from tiku.hut.fi (tiku.hut.fi [130.233.228.86]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DKDmK18179 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:13:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from carmen.hut.fi (jannek@carmen.hut.fi [130.233.200.85]) by tiku.hut.fi (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03598 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:13:46 +0200 (EET) Received: (from jannek@localhost) by carmen.hut.fi (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA14255 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:13:46 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:13:46 +0200 From: Janne Korkkula To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting: init scripts Message-ID: <20020213221346.G8970@cc.hut.fi> References: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk> <20020213074539.D2306@new.gerasimov.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020213074539.D2306@new.gerasimov.net>; from extasia@mindspring.com on Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 07:45:39AM -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 13.02. 07:45, David Alban wrote: > > 2. Learn enough /bin/sh to read rc files and stuff. > Hmmm... One needs to learn much more than this amount if one is > going to maintain or customize init.d/ scripts. I'll second that. We have a lot of Linux, Tru64, AIX and Solaris systems, and used (well, still use) a "local.`uname`" script to start some basic services, such as sshd. As a quick and dirty hack it doesn't care about any of those fancy options - such as "start" and "stop". And all I wanted was to say "/etc/init.d/sshd reconfigure"... So I came up with this little script which does the job for sshd and many others on several architectures. Apachectl by Mark Slemko donated some ideas. I haven't had a chance to smooth the edges and probably won't any time soon, but so many nice things fail to ever see the light of day due to excess perfectionism... So here we go, yet another init script. (Attachments and archiving systems etc. don't seem to mix that well, so I'll just include it in the message body.) (I've got another similar but more complicated script for stuff run with daemonize, but it doesn't pass my personal QC yet. Drop me a line if you need one "yesterday", it might be enough for an idea or two.) #!/bin/sh ############################################################################## # System V init script template # 1.3.0 2002-02-13 # first public release (on sage-members) # 1.3 2002-02-01 # restart delay in wrong place, fixed # 1.2 2002-01-24 # initial HUT/CC internal release # # PLEASE NOTE: DOCUMENTATION, COPYRIGHT AND LICENSE STATEMENT AT END ############################################################################## # # this is a generic prototype script using two ssh daemons as examples # ############################################################################## ### do NOT change the default path unless you know what you're doing PATH=/usr/sbin:/sbin:/usr/xpg4/bin:/usr/bin:/bin export PATH ### common settings and functions for all services restart_delay=1 start_fn () { $daemon } stop_fn () { kill $pid 2>/dev/null } reconfigure_fn () { kill -HUP $pid 2>/dev/null } graceful_fn () { kill -USR1 $pid 2>/dev/null } ### service-dependent settings and functions, ### according to script name (NOTE: matched from end) case "$0" in *sshd) daemon="/usr/sbin/sshd" pidfile="/var/run/sshd.pid" graceful_fn () { printf "method not supported by service: " return 1 } ;; *sshd-secondary) daemon="/usr/sbin/sshd -f /etc/sshd_config.secondary" pidfile="/var/run/sshd-secondary.pid" graceful_fn () { printf "method not supported by service: " return 1 } ;; *) echo "$0: service \"`basename $0`\" not configured" exit 1 esac ################################# internal functions ######################### get_state () { ### establish current state ### this function does NOT generate a useful return value ### but sets $status (text) and $running (numeric) if [ -f $pidfile ] ; then pid=`cat $pidfile` if [ "x$pid" != "x" ] && kill -0 $pid 2>/dev/null ; then status="running (pid $pid)" running=1 else status="not running (unclean shutdown, last pid $pid)" running=0 fi else status="not running" running=0 fi } is_running () { ### just a shortcut, use get_state to establish state [ $running -eq 1 ] } show_okfail () { ### shortcut for generic ok/FAIL text output [ $? -eq 0 ] && echo "ok" || echo "FAILED" } clean_pidfile () { ### just silently (try to) remove the pid file, if it's left behind [ -f $pidfile ] && rm -f $pidfile 2>/dev/null } ### because we use a for loop, need to explicitly set no args -> usage if [ "x$1" = "x" ] ; then args="usage" fi ### check for root permissions if [ "`whoami`" != "root" ] ; then echo "$0: WARNING - not being run by root, results may be unreliable!" fi ########################### main operation loop ############################## ### to allow escape with "continue" and multiple commands (be careful though!) for arg in $@ $args; do ### always, ALWAYS get CURRENT operating state first get_state ### header with full path and operation to hugely aid solving problems printf "$0 $arg: " ######################### operation dependent switch ######################### case "$arg" in status) ### output current state (which we've already established) echo "$status" ;; start) ### run start_fn if service is not running is_running && { echo "already running" continue } start_fn show_okfail ;; stop) ### run stop_fn if service is running is_running || { echo "not running" continue } stop_fn show_okfail clean_pidfile ;; restart) ### ok, this gets a bit hairy, but best be sure. is_running && { stop_fn || { echo "did not stop, will not attempt start: FAILED" continue } && { sleep $restart_delay get_state } } || printf "(was not running) " is_running && { echo "still running after ${restart_delay}s,"\ "will not attempt start: FAILED" continue } start_fn show_okfail ;; reconfigure) ### run reconfigure_fn if service is running is_running || { echo "not running" continue } reconfigure_fn show_okfail ;; graceful) ### run graceful_fn if service is running is_running || { echo "not running" continue } graceful_fn show_okfail ;; delay) ### for running multiple operations manually sleep $restart_delay echo "${restart_delay}s ok" ;; *) ### show usage if [ "x$args" = "x" ] ; then echo "unknown operation" printf "usage:" fi echo "$0 (status|start|stop|restart|reconfigure|graceful|delay) ..." exit 1 esac done ### happy happy joy joy exit 0 ############################################################################## # # Copyright 2002 Janne Korkkula # # This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify # it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by # the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or # (at your option) any later version. # # This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, # but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of # MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the # GNU General Public License for more details. # # To obtain a copy of the GNU General Public License write to the # Free Software Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, # Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA (or try http://www.gnu.org/licences/) # ############################################################################## # # this template works as-is for all daemons which fork into background and # create a standard pid file, but reconfigure_fn might need some customizing # for other kinds of pseudo-daemons, you'll need to figure out a proper # start_fn and stop_fn as well. # # define service settings # daemon command to run, used only in default start_fn # pidfile file path, must contain numeric process id only # restart_delay seconds to sleep between stop & start, and delay command # # define functions for starting, stopping and reconfiguring the service # - don't bother checking whether running or not, already done before call # - by default, the pidfile may or may not exist when start_fn is run # - stop_fn does not need to clean up the pidfile, done after call # - keep as silent as possible, preferably say nothing or use short printf # - return values are used, see that they're sane (return 0 if ok) # - process ID available as $pid # - template comments start with '###', use a single hash for your own! # ############################################################################## -- Janne Korkkula Helsinki University of Technology, Computing Centre jk@hut.fi tel. +358 9 451 4314 http://www.hut.fi/cc/u/jannek/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 13:46:36 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1DLb6219185 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:37:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from permanently.misplaced.net (mail@permanently.misplaced.net [209.45.245.152]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1DLb4K19181 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:37:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from btoneill@localhost) by permanently.misplaced.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g1DLb2H01550; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:37:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:37:01 -0600 From: "Brian T. O'Neill" To: "James O'Kane" Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Offsite storage recommendations Message-ID: <20020213153701.A766@permanently.misplaced.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jo2y@midnightlinux.com on Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 10:57:54AM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We've been quite happy with Arcus Data Security. We interviewed like 5 different places, and were most impressed with them, their procedures, response time, and pricing. Brian Quoting James O'Kane (jo2y@midnightlinux.com) from : > I'm trying to find a service in the Pittsburgh, PA area that will do > weekly pickups of our backup tapes and return with the next set in the > rotation. Currently we are using a safe deposit box at a nearby bank, but > the space has filled up quickly. > > I've done a few google searches, but nothing I've tried seems to bring up > relevent companies. Does anyone have either suggestions on how to find > such a service or have recommendations of companies they have used who > service Pittsburgh? > > thanks > -james > -- brian btoneill@misplaced.net **************************************************************************** "I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe and what I believe -- I believe what I believe is right." - Dubya **************************************************************************** From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 13 17:18:52 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1E1Dep21913 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:13:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.primushost.com (relay2.primushost.com [207.244.125.21]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1E1DaK21909 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:13:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from nautilus.shore.net [207.244.124.104] by relay2.primushost.com with esmtp (Exim) id 16bATs-0003MS-00; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:14:36 -0500 Received: from jtm by nautilus.shore.net with local (Exim) id 16bASt-0007jK-00; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:13:35 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:13:35 -0500 From: John Mahoney To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] root best practices Message-ID: <20020213201335.A26043@nautilus.shore.net> References: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk> <200202131741.g1DHfbHL029743@castle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200202131741.g1DHfbHL029743@castle.org>; from nomad@castle.org on Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 09:41:37AM -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I suppose that I agree with those insisting on sudo, never-the-less, I have been in plenty of places where root is handled as a group login and I firmly agree that the root login should be kept _very_ clean. So my personal work around that lets me keep my tcsh environment when I su to root is to carry an alias: alias sur /bin/su root -c /bin/tcsh So far it works for me... -- John _________________________________________________________ John Mahoney jtm@shore.net On Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 09:41:37AM -0800, Lee Damon wrote: > > Now, what's the best practice for dealing with the shell environment > > after you su to root? Just remember to type tcsh every time? Modify > > root's startup files? Create an alternate root account that uses tcsh > > as it's default shell? > > The best practice: > 1. DO NOT su to root > 2. use sudo > 3. See #1 > 4. Leave root's environment as *clean* as possible. No different shell, > nothing in the path that doesn't come from the / partition. It is > your last hope for system recovery, and you don't want it to hang on > log in. > 5. See #1. > > nomad > ----------- - Lee "nomad" Damon - \ > play: nomad@castle.org or castle!nomad \ > work: nomad@ee.washington.edu \ > /\ > Seneschal, Castle PAUS. / \ > "Celebrate Diversity" / \ > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 14 08:38:03 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1EGRoE26906 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:27:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (cliff.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.17]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1EGRnK26902 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from frodo.mcs.anl.gov (frodo.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.8.143]) by mcs.anl.gov (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18942; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:27:42 -0600 Received: from cliff.mcs.anl.gov (rackow@localhost) by frodo.mcs.anl.gov (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g1EGRgh28918; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:27:42 -0600 Message-Id: <200202141627.g1EGRgh28918@frodo.mcs.anl.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: frodo.mcs.anl.gov: rackow owned process doing -bs To: ed.rolison@itc.alstom.com cc: sage-members@usenix.org, rackow@mcs.anl.gov Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:13:18 GMT." Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:27:42 -0600 From: Gene Rackow X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk All of these things are just tools. We need to consider them exactly that. When you go into the hardware store and look at hammers, you will find there are slight differences in the grip, claw, weight, head size, etc. I'm not comparing 16lb sledges to tack hammers either, just the basic hammer you'd expect to find in most basic toolkits. You don't really think about it all that much, you adjust and move on. If you find the hammer you have in hand is not really suitable to do the job you need done, you either put extra effort into making what you have work, or you pick a better tool for the job. Having used many different versions of what might be considered versions of Unix, I have found there isn't a "standard" or "minimum" that you can expect to be on every machine. If you want/need that minimal level, you are forced to put it there yourself. Even IF the vendor is suppling all the same options, the output is not always going to be in the same format. The possibility of programming in just the shells built-ins is quite minimal. Chances are you are going to need to do use other external commands as well. The simplicity of shells, verses more complex things like perl almost guarentee this. How many times are you going to need to call cut, awk, sed, and others. Getting the quotes and escapes just right for all of these with various data files you try to process really gets ugly. Something as simple as "find" should be fairly consistent by now. I know that "find" is not part of the shell language, but it makes a good example. I'm not sure when the "-ls" option was introduced, but I know it existed 17 years ago (as documented in the BSD4.3 books) yet SGI does not have it on IRIX today. Most other flavors of Unix have it. Here is yet another thing to program around with SGI. I think they were the vendor that forced you to do a byte-swap on tape based tar files from other vendors too but I haven't needed to go that route for some time. Even the basic "shell" capabilities vary from vendor to vendor or release to release. The /bin/sh under AIX and Unicos really should be (or should have been) called something else. The AIX version starts with ksh, but then maps down to sh compatibility, but not quite. Unicos had lots of incompatibilities and many things from what people considered standard built-ins were not in that version. The POSIX standard is only a "standard" as well. There are places where it makes sense, and others where it causes problems. For example, the AIX version of "vi" was changed to be POSIX compliant. It's the only vendor that I know of that that did so. The change broke what most people considered "standard vi" funtionality. The changes occured in the handling of the "undo" and "repeat" funtions. I'm not saying that we shouldn't strive for standardization. POSIX has taken us a ways down that path. I'm not sure how many people really even care about POSIX that much any more. To some degree, we now assume that the important pieces of POSIX are in place on most machines and therefore not really thought about. It definitly is not one of the primary issues like it was a few years ago. It seems to be going much like the SVID compliance that came before it. Yes it is a standard, but it is not a marketing "requirement" to selling systems. It may be a nice bullet item on a sales slide, but if the system does what you need it to do are you going to worry about the fact that it is not 100% compliant with the standards? How about the XPG4 standards. Do people really use that set of commands vs what is in /usr/bin? My personal take on shell programming is that as long as what you are attempting to accomplish is fairly simple and short, doing it via a shell script makes sense. Once the script gets over about 2 screens worth, chances are you want to move it to a higher level language. Others will claim that by the time it has gotten that far it should have already been done using another language. -_Gene ed.rolison@itc.alstom.com made the following keystrokes: > >Unfortunately, its the GNU tools which breaks the portability of shell >scripts (IMHO). >The problem being, things like gnu grep, gnu tar etc have 'extended' >features - which for those of us running 'standard' distributions of >solaris (and I guess a number of other os) means that they break. >I know you could install gnu tools all over the place, but IIRC a >lot of 'stuff' is covered by the posix standard. (I'd imagine a number >of OS vendors do the same but GNU is the one which I've been tripped >over by on a number of occasions) > >Of course my personal gripe is with openssh/ssl which _needs_ perl to >install. On a prod server, we don't do perl, and >we do like ssh. >And the reason? To emulate mkdir -p (so using something optional, to >emulate something else that's optional.) > >sh and POSIX are the true way IMHO. Perl is nice and good and powerful, but >standard stuff where you can be confident >you won't have compatability problems is going to make your life _much_ >easier. > > > > > >Dave Close @usenix.org on 13/02/2002 04:11:08 > >Sent by: owner-sage-members@usenix.org > > >To: sage-members@usenix.org >cc: > >Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting > > >"Adam S. Moskowitz" wrote: >>There's something to be said for writing shell scripts that have >>a very high likelihood of running on damned near any modern Unix machine >>you're likely to come across. > >I concur with avoiding csh scripts. But that does NOT mean that >sh scripts are likely to run on "damned near any" system. The most >common thing in a script is an invocation of a binary program, and, >unfortunately, many of those differ substantially between systems, >in syntax, function, and location. Making a truly portable script >is a much more involved process than choosing the language. >-- > Dave Close, Compata, Costa Mesa CA +1 714 434 7359 > dave@compata.com dhclose@alumni.caltech.edu >"..the last seven decades of the twentieth century will be characterized > in history as the dark ages of theoretical physics." -- Carver Mead > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 14 09:47:28 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1EHfSI27592 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:41:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from pallas.eruditorum.org (postfix@pallas.eruditorum.org [63.251.136.85]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1EHfRK27588 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:41:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by pallas.eruditorum.org (Postfix, from userid 503) id 4AAB218C2C; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:41:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:41:26 -0500 From: "Melissa D. Binde" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] root best practices Message-ID: <20020214124126.B18269@terindell.com> References: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk> <200202131741.g1DHfbHL029743@castle.org> <20020213201335.A26043@nautilus.shore.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020213201335.A26043@nautilus.shore.net>; from jtm@shore.net on Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 08:13:35PM -0500 X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk But you're also fine with sudo if you _really_ want a shell: sudo /bin/tcsh (or, as has been noted many times at my current place of employment, even if your policy forbids sudo'ing to shells and even if that's enforced via the sudoers file, "sudo vi :shell" works, as does the ever-popular "sudo newgrp". but really, 'sudo command' is the way to go unless you're cd'ing around in unfriendly directories or running stupid binaries from the vendor that insist on your actual UID being zero.) Twas brillig, on Wed Feb 13 at 08:13:35 PM, and John Mahoney burbled: > I suppose that I agree with those insisting on sudo, > never-the-less, I have been in plenty of places where > root is handled as a group login and I firmly agree that > the root login should be kept _very_ clean. > > So my personal work around that lets me keep my tcsh > environment when I su to root is to carry an alias: > alias sur /bin/su root -c /bin/tcsh > > So far it works for me... > > -- > John > _________________________________________________________ > John Mahoney jtm@shore.net > > On Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 09:41:37AM -0800, Lee Damon wrote: > > > Now, what's the best practice for dealing with the shell environment > > > after you su to root? Just remember to type tcsh every time? Modify > > > root's startup files? Create an alternate root account that uses tcsh > > > as it's default shell? > > > > The best practice: > > 1. DO NOT su to root > > 2. use sudo > > 3. See #1 > > 4. Leave root's environment as *clean* as possible. No different shell, > > nothing in the path that doesn't come from the / partition. It is > > your last hope for system recovery, and you don't want it to hang on > > log in. > > 5. See #1. > > > > nomad > > ----------- - Lee "nomad" Damon - \ > > play: nomad@castle.org or castle!nomad \ > > work: nomad@ee.washington.edu \ > > /\ > > Seneschal, Castle PAUS. / \ > > "Celebrate Diversity" / \ > > > > > -M. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 14 10:32:51 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1EIRo228143 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:27:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from gate.mental.com (gate.mental.com [192.31.14.2]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1EIRmK28139 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by gate.mental.com (8.8.5/8.8.8/Lobo-20010816) id TAA06201 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:27:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from twen-et(172.16.0.5) by gate via smap (V2.0/Lobo-010123) id xma006197; Thu, 14 Feb 02 19:27:42 +0100 Received: (from smap@localhost) by mental.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/Lobo-20010816) id g1EIOqu09193 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:24:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from twen(172.17.0.5) by twen via smap (V2.0) id xma009189; Thu, 14 Feb 02 19:24:45 +0100 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting In-reply-to: Gene Rackow's message of Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:27:42 CST <200202141627.g1EGRgh28918@frodo.mcs.anl.gov> Organization: mental images GmbH & Co. KG, Berlin, Germany Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:24:44 +0100 Message-ID: <9188.1013711084@mental.com> From: Alexander Lobodzinski X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk () Here is yet another thing to program around with SGI. I think they () were the vendor that forced you to do a byte-swap on tape based tar files () from other vendors too As I recall it they introduced the "tapes" and "tapens" ("swap" and "noswap") devices to facilitate reading QIC tapes from legacy systems with the other bytesex, but unfortunately confused everybody with that move. Hell, that's what dd is for. IRIX still creates byteswapping tape devices even for Exabyte, AIT and other drives, just everybody keep your hands off them... () but I haven't needed to go that route for some time. I wonder why I also didn't use QIC tapes for some time. :-) Ciao, Lobo From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 14 13:57:15 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1ELpct00601 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:51:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from insws8502.gs.com (insws8502.gs.com [204.4.182.11]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1ELpbK00597 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:51:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from insdbod02.inz.gs.com (unknown [207.17.36.75]) by insws8502.gs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90AFA1C12B for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:51:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from nbsapsm02.ny.ficc.gs.com by insdbod02.inz.gs.com with ESMTP for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:51:31 -0500 Received: from nbsadc111.ny.ficc.gs.com (nbsadc111.ny.ficc.gs.com [148.86.214.85]) by nbsapsm02.ny.ficc.gs.com (8.9.1a/8.9.0/wanhub) with ESMTP id QAA12849 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:51:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from gs.com (nbsadc111.ny.ficc.gs.com [148.86.214.85]) by nbsadc111.ny.ficc.gs.com (8.9.1a/8.9.0/wanhub) with ESMTP id QAA17632 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:51:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3C6C3156.2EE54219@gs.com> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:51:18 -0500 From: "Joseph Boyer Jr." Organization: Goldman Sachs and Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] shell scripting -- question X-Priority: 1 (Highest) References: <9188.1013711084@mental.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk folks, with sh or ksh is it possible to eval a varible with an embedded varible. E.G #!/bin/sh a_1=red a_2=blue a_3=black for i in $ 1 2 3 { T=${A_${i}} echo $T } so the values returned will be red blue black This will return a bad substitutions error. Is this type of varible subsitution possbile? This is a quite simplified explaination of what am i doing. this examples explains my needs. thank! --joe From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 14 15:39:05 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1ENXqN01692 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:33:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from gwyn.tux.org (ident-user@gwyn.tux.org [207.96.122.8]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1ENXlK01688 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:33:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jsdy@localhost) by gwyn.tux.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id SAA20515; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:33:33 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:33:33 -0500 From: Joseph S D Yao To: "Joseph Boyer Jr." Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting -- question Message-ID: <20020214183333.P15759@gwyn.tux.org> Mail-Followup-To: "Joseph Boyer Jr." , sage-members@usenix.org References: <9188.1013711084@mental.com> <3C6C3156.2EE54219@gs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3C6C3156.2EE54219@gs.com>; from joseph.boyer@gs.com on Thu, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:51:18PM -0500 X-Accepted-File-Formats: ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:51:18PM -0500, Joseph Boyer Jr. wrote: > folks, > > with sh or ksh is it possible to eval a varible with an embedded > varible. > > E.G > > #!/bin/sh > > a_1=red > a_2=blue > a_3=black > > for i in $ 1 2 3 ^ '$' is perhaps not intended here? > { > > T=${A_${i}} ^ case error? > echo $T > } > > so the values returned will be > red > blue > black > > This will return a bad substitutions error. Is this type of varible > subsitution possbile? > > This is a quite simplified explaination of what am i doing. this > examples explains my needs. Try this instead: for i in 1 2 3; do T=`eval "echo \\$a_$i"` echo $T done -- /*********************************************************************\ ** ** Joe Yao jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao ** \*********************************************************************/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 14 16:43:20 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1F0bYZ02267 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:37:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmz-smtp.dy4.com (smtp.dy4.com [216.129.32.201]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1F0bXK02263 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:37:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from exconnectors.int.dy4.com (viper.dy4.com [216.129.32.194]) by dmz-smtp.dy4.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g1F0bU229030 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:37:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by exconnectors.int.dy4.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1PHA4NRB>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:37:29 -0500 Message-ID: <6D2B277601E8D511895700065B04DAB206BC61@dy4exsrv5.int.dy4.com> From: "McKinlay, Ken" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] shell scripting -- question Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:37:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Here is a script that I thinks does what you want. -------- #!/bin/sh a1=red a2=blue a3=black for i in 1 2 3; do eval t="\$a${i}" echo $t done -------- Ken McKinlay Dy 4 Systems 613-599-9199 x5506 ken.mckinlay@dy4.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Joseph Boyer Jr. [mailto:joseph.boyer@gs.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 16:51 > To: sage-members@usenix.org > Subject: [SAGE] shell scripting -- question > Importance: High > > > folks, > > with sh or ksh is it possible to eval a varible with an embedded > varible. > > E.G > > #!/bin/sh > > a_1=red > a_2=blue > a_3=black > > for i in $ 1 2 3 > { > > T=${A_${i}} > echo $T > } > > so the values returned will be > red > blue > black > > This will return a bad substitutions error. Is this type of varible > subsitution possbile? > > > This is a quite simplified explaination of what am i doing. this > examples explains my needs. > > > thank! > --joe > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 15 06:06:38 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1FDtAR06365 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 05:55:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from insws8501.gs.com (insws8501.gs.com [204.4.182.10]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1FDt9K06361 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 05:55:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from insdb8501.inz.gs.com (unknown [204.4.188.74]) by insws8501.gs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65F761BE9B for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:55:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from nbsapsm02.ny.ficc.gs.com by insdb8501.inz.gs.com with ESMTP for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:54:53 -0500 Received: from nbsadc111.ny.ficc.gs.com (nbsadc111.ny.ficc.gs.com [148.86.214.85]) by nbsapsm02.ny.ficc.gs.com (8.9.1a/8.9.0/wanhub) with ESMTP id IAA20184 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:54:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from gs.com (nbsadc111.ny.ficc.gs.com [148.86.214.85]) by nbsadc111.ny.ficc.gs.com (8.9.1a/8.9.0/wanhub) with ESMTP id IAA18629 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:54:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3C6D1320.13CA8668@gs.com> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:54:40 -0500 From: "Joseph Boyer Jr." Organization: Goldman Sachs and Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting -- question References: <9188.1013711084@mental.com> <3C6C3156.2EE54219@gs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk thanks to all! I got my script working. I used T=`eval "echo \\$a_$i"` to evaluate my vars, but I may rewrite the script to use bash utilizing its array functionality. Again, Thanks for the help! -joe "Joseph Boyer Jr." wrote: > > folks, > > with sh or ksh is it possible to eval a varible with an embedded > varible. > > E.G > > #!/bin/sh > > a_1=red > a_2=blue > a_3=black > > for i in $ 1 2 3 > { > > T=${A_${i}} > echo $T > } > > so the values returned will be > red > blue > black > > This will return a bad substitutions error. Is this type of varible > subsitution possbile? > > This is a quite simplified explaination of what am i doing. this > examples explains my needs. > > thank! > --joe From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 15 07:01:42 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1FEqjt06682 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 06:52:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from wayne.ucns.uga.edu (wayne.ucns.uga.edu [128.192.6.54]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1FEqhK06678 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 06:52:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (steve@localhost) by wayne.ucns.uga.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1FEobZ29790 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:50:41 -0500 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:50:37 -0500 (EST) From: "Steve G. Hilliard" X-X-Sender: steve@wayne.ucns.uga.edu To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] looking for robust web interface for IMAP Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi folks, We have been using Sendmail, Inc. SMMS since the days when it was Mailspinner, and have had fairly good success until recently. Our implementation is user dirs and mailboxes on a cluster of AIX boxes, six of which run IMAP. The MTA is sendmail, but it just puts mail into queues that are then processed in an orderly fashion by seperate queue runner processes, and procmail. And to top it off, we're running DCE/DFS, so the user's inbox is actually a dir in their fileset. We will eventually be looking for a substitute for all of this (right now people are talking NIMS or Exchange) but in the short term Sendmail Inc. says support for this product (SMMS) may dry up at the end of March! (This is for installtions that are not using their companion SAMS product.) If anyone knows of a comparable web interface to IMAP, PLEASE let me know, on or off the list, as soon as you can spare a moment. Even a URL would be great. We need something that can handle 40-50 thousand users, roughly 300K messages a day, and isn't confused by dealing with multiple IMAP servers. (Outlook Express has had issues due to their "send and don't wait for response" implementation of IMAP.) Thanks for any info you can provide--this is going to be a great month! Steve -- ------------------------------------------------------ Steve G. Hilliard "........to administer, divine" Production Systems Administration Support Enterprise Information Technology Services University of Georgia From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 15 07:48:21 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1FFcuv06979 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:38:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1FFctK06975 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:38:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from feta.cs.duke.edu (feta.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.207]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09574 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:38:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (des@localhost) by feta.cs.duke.edu (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA24159 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:38:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: feta.cs.duke.edu: des owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:38:54 -0500 (EST) From: "Daniel E. Singer" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] shell scripting -- question In-Reply-To: <6D2B277601E8D511895700065B04DAB206BC61@dy4exsrv5.int.dy4.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk OK, I feel the need to add my $.02... On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Joseph Boyer Jr. wrote: > #!/bin/sh > > a_1=red > a_2=blue > a_3=black > > for i in $ 1 2 3 > { > > T=${A_${i}} > echo $T > } On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Joseph S D Yao wrote: > for i in 1 2 3; do > T=`eval "echo \\$a_$i"` > echo $T > done On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, McKinlay, Ken wrote: > #!/bin/sh > > a1=red > a2=blue > a3=black > > for i in 1 2 3; do > eval t="\$a${i}" > echo $t > done Here's my `refinement': a_1=red a_2=blue a_3=black for i in 1 2 3; do eval "T=\"\$a_$i\"" echo $T done Slight difference, but I think more reliable. An easy way to debug this, then, is to replace the `eval' with `echo', and then run it: for i in 1 2 3; do echo "T=\"\$a_$i\"" done which produces the output: T="$a_1" T="$a_2" T="$a_3" Fun with shell programming... ;) Dan -- Daniel E. Singer, System Administrator Dept. of Computer Science, Duke University, Durham NC 27708 USA "Non cognosco. In hoc tantum laboro." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 15 08:42:50 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1FGap207370 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:36:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from deluge.cc.mcgill.ca (deluge.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.27.50]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1FGajK07365 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:36:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from dna.mcgill.ca (dna.McGill.CA [132.206.27.48]) by deluge.cc.mcgill.ca (8.12.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g1FGaNSB004935 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:36:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from guiness.CC.McGill.CA (guiness.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.35.24]) by dna.mcgill.ca (8.12.0/8.12.0) with ESMTP id g1FGaNhE013635; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:36:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:36:16 -0500 (EST) From: Ron Hall To: "Steve G. Hilliard" cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] looking for robust web interface for IMAP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > > If anyone knows of a comparable web interface to IMAP, PLEASE let me know, > on or off the list, as soon as you can spare a moment. Even a URL would > be great. We need something that can handle 40-50 thousand users, roughly > 300K messages a day, and isn't confused by dealing with multiple IMAP > servers. (Outlook Express has had issues due to their "send and don't > wait for response" implementation of IMAP.) Try silkymail from cyrusoft Based on IMP but now re-written in PHP - very nice HTH As Always r From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 15 12:15:05 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1FK9Sp09224 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:09:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ece.cmu.edu (ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.136.200]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1FK9RK09220 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:09:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from rushlight (VPN28.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.138.28]) by ece.cmu.edu (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g1FK9Nj15458; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:09:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting -- question From: "Brandon S. Allbery "KF8NH To: "Joseph Boyer Jr." Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <3C6D1320.13CA8668@gs.com> References: <9188.1013711084@mental.com> <3C6C3156.2EE54219@gs.com> <3C6D1320.13CA8668@gs.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0 (Preview Release) Date: 15 Feb 2002 15:09:11 -0500 Message-Id: <1013803764.1243.4.camel@rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 2002-02-15 at 08:54, Joseph Boyer Jr. wrote: > I used T=`eval "echo \\$a_$i"` to evaluate my vars, but I may rewrite > the script to use bash utilizing its array functionality. Another possibility is to use zsh, which both has array support and allows foo=a_$whatever ${!foo} where the "!" indicates indirection (and may be specified multiple times). I think it may also allow ${a_$foo} directly in some versions; I'm still learning its more advanced features myself. -- brandon s. allbery [linux][solaris][japh][freebsd] allbery@kf8nh.apk.net system administrator [openafs][heimdal][too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering KF8NH carnegie mellon university ["better check the oblivious first" -ke6sls] From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 15 12:39:18 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1FKYtJ09446 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:34:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1FKYsR09440 for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from naveja.net (cbup-1.dsl.speakeasy.net [216.231.42.92]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1FKFPK09295 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:15:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (wade@localhost) by naveja.net (8.11.4/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g1FKIVs21572; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:18:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:18:31 -0800 (PST) From: wade naveja To: "Steve G. Hilliard" cc: Subject: Re: [SAGE] looking for robust web interface for IMAP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The Horde Project's IMP is worth a look. -> http://www.horde.org/imp/ On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Steve G. Hilliard wrote: > Hi folks, > > We have been using Sendmail, Inc. SMMS since the days when it was > Mailspinner, and have had fairly good success until recently. Our > implementation is user dirs and mailboxes on a cluster of AIX boxes, six > of which run IMAP. The MTA is sendmail, but it just puts mail into queues > that are then processed in an orderly fashion by seperate queue runner > processes, and procmail. And to top it off, we're running DCE/DFS, so the > user's inbox is actually a dir in their fileset. > > We will eventually be looking for a substitute for all of this (right > now people are talking NIMS or Exchange) but in the short term > Sendmail Inc. says support for this product (SMMS) may dry up at the > end of March! (This is for installtions that are not using their > companion SAMS product.) > > If anyone knows of a comparable web interface to IMAP, PLEASE let me know, > on or off the list, as soon as you can spare a moment. Even a URL would > be great. We need something that can handle 40-50 thousand users, roughly > 300K messages a day, and isn't confused by dealing with multiple IMAP > servers. (Outlook Express has had issues due to their "send and don't > wait for response" implementation of IMAP.) > > Thanks for any info you can provide--this is going to be a great month! > Steve > -- > ------------------------------------------------------ > Steve G. Hilliard "........to administer, divine" > Production Systems Administration Support > Enterprise Information Technology Services > University of Georgia > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 15 14:19:14 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1FMG2p10310 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:16:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from neuromancer.mbarr.net (postfix@66-108-143-133.nyc.rr.com [66.108.143.133]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1FMG0K10306 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:16:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by neuromancer.mbarr.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0086B2CA7B9; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:15:56 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1331 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:15:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [SAGE] looking for robust web interface for IMAP From: Matthew Barr To: Ron Hall , "Steve G. Hilliard" Cc: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We actually had the author of IMP & Horde stuff at our NYSA meeting (* NYC Local SAGE group *) this week. It was originally written in PHP, and seemed very comprehensive. I believe the URL is http://www.horde.org . I think MIT & U Penn use IMP as their systems. It sounds like it's very nice. I haven't actually tried to install it quite yet, but it's on my Todo list. Matthew On 2/15/02 11:36 AM, "Ron Hall" wrote: >> >> If anyone knows of a comparable web interface to IMAP, PLEASE let me know, >> on or off the list, as soon as you can spare a moment. Even a URL would >> be great. We need something that can handle 40-50 thousand users, roughly >> 300K messages a day, and isn't confused by dealing with multiple IMAP >> servers. (Outlook Express has had issues due to their "send and don't >> wait for response" implementation of IMAP.) > > Try silkymail from cyrusoft > > Based on IMP but now re-written in PHP - very nice > > > HTH > > As Always > > r > _______________________________________________________________________ Matthew Barr mailto:mhb8@cornell.edu AIM: MBarr1244 ICQ: 22130424 Hm: (212) 961-1083 M:(646) 765-6878 PGP Key Fingerprint = 35DC DC87 4F38 2E80 F327 2B50 FD82 A2CB CB80 80F3 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 15 15:33:59 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1FNV4H11090 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:31:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1FNV4F11085 for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:31:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from spork.sendmail.com (spork.Sendmail.COM [209.246.26.39]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1FNGUK10940 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified FAIL) for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:16:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from foon.sendmail.com (smtp.sendmail.com [209.246.26.40]) by spork.sendmail.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g1FNGRh01806 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified OK) for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:16:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mathieu.smi.sendmail.com (natted.Sendmail.COM [63.211.143.38]) by foon.sendmail.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g1FNGNc05747 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:16:24 -0800 Received: from mathieu.smi.sendmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mathieu.smi.sendmail.com (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g1FNHPJ49502 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:17:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric@mathieu.smi.sendmail.com) Message-Id: <200202152317.g1FNHPJ49502@mathieu.smi.sendmail.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Eric Allman X-URL: http://WWW.Sendmail.ORG/~eric Subject: [SAGE] Sendmail, Inc's SMMS product Reply-To: Eric Allman Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:17:25 -0800 X-Filtered: Sendmail MIME Filter v1.0.7 foon.sendmail.com g1FNGNc05747 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I want to take the opportunity to clarify some of the points that Steve Hilliard wrote about Sendmail, Inc.'s support for SMMS (our web- and mobile-mail product). It is true that we are going to start insisting that customers run SAMS (our mailbox hosting/IMAP server product) to continue to get support for SMMS. This is a simple matter of balancing the books: there are very few SMMS customers that are _not_ running SAMS, and the cost of supporting them exceeds what we are charging them for support. We could raise the support price, but it would be a substantial price hike since it would have to include engineering overhead as well as support. We feel that this wouldn't be fair to anyone. Of course, any of these customers are welcome to continue to use the version of SMMS that they have installed, but we just can't continue to provide commercial support for the few remaining SMMS-without-SAMS customers. eric From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 16 00:12:45 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1G85Kr16129 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:05:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from frodo.infolearn.com.au (frodo.infolearn.com.au [203.32.162.17]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g1G85IK16124 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:05:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5490 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2002 08:05:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO frodo.infolearn.com.au) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 16 Feb 2002 08:05:15 -0000 Received: from 203.134.20.161 (SquirrelMail authenticated user samj) by webmail.fusionbox.net with HTTP; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 19:05:15 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <1731.203.134.20.161.1013846715.squirrel@webmail.fusionbox.net> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 19:05:15 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] looking for robust web interface for IMAP From: "Sam Johnston" To: In-Reply-To: References: X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cc: X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.4) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk SquirrelMail - http://www.squirrelmail.org works for me, and there's some interesting design changes in the pipeline for the upcoming v2 release. There were some issues recently, esp. related to PHP4.1 changes, but it seems these have been ironed out and there have been some useful additions (eg the paginator). I hear IMP's pretty good too (http://www.horde.org/imp). One thing that stopped me using IMP was the version in the pipeline had lots of features I wanted, but it just never seemed to make the light of day. This has since changed, so I'll no doubt revisit it in the not too distant future. I'm not sure how they compare in terms of scalability, but I've seen a few scalability changes being made to SM recently (hashed prefs directories etc.). - samj -- Sam Johnston Australian Online Solutions 1300 132 809 Steve G. Hilliard said: > Hi folks, > > We have been using Sendmail, Inc. SMMS since the days when it was > Mailspinner, and have had fairly good success until recently. Our > implementation is user dirs and mailboxes on a cluster of AIX boxes, > six of which run IMAP. The MTA is sendmail, but it just puts mail into > queues that are then processed in an orderly fashion by seperate queue > runner processes, and procmail. And to top it off, we're running > DCE/DFS, so the user's inbox is actually a dir in their fileset. > > We will eventually be looking for a substitute for all of this (right > now people are talking NIMS or Exchange) but in the short term > Sendmail Inc. says support for this product (SMMS) may dry up at the > end of March! (This is for installtions that are not using their > companion SAMS product.) > > If anyone knows of a comparable web interface to IMAP, PLEASE let me > know, on or off the list, as soon as you can spare a moment. Even a > URL would be great. We need something that can handle 40-50 thousand > users, roughly 300K messages a day, and isn't confused by dealing with > multiple IMAP servers. (Outlook Express has had issues due to their > "send and don't wait for response" implementation of IMAP.) > > Thanks for any info you can provide--this is going to be a great month! > Steve > -- > ------------------------------------------------------ > Steve G. Hilliard "........to administer, divine" > Production Systems Administration Support > Enterprise Information Technology Services > University of Georgia -- Sam Johnston Australian Online Solutions 1300 132 809 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 16 09:08:56 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1GGrgY18838 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 08:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from igtc.igtc.com (IDENT:ufAeKuTfNoAVbYJv9y6Q0VgXIXwDW3gZ@igtc.igtc.com [204.152.188.230]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1GGrfK18834 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 08:53:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pmm@localhost) by igtc.igtc.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1GGrev04115 for sage-members@usenix.org; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 08:53:40 -0800 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 08:53:40 -0800 From: "Paul M. Moriarty" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Assistance requested: What do your storage I/O workloads look like? Message-ID: <20020216165340.GF4363@igtc.igtc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk [I apologize if this is a duplicate. Originally sent Friday, appears to have never gotten out. -pmm] Hello all, I am working with a company that is trying to get a feel for storage I/O workloads in different, high I/O, high capacity environments. I am appealing to the list for some assistance in this matter. No company-specific information will be shared without advance consent. There are just a few simple data points that I am trying to determine: - the ratio of reads/writes (avg per day, though peaks are interesting too) - block size - the I/O bandwidth consumed by this traffic (avg per day, peaks also interesting) - the size of the underlying storage being addressed - the type(s) of applications being run Please reply directly to me and I will summarize my findings to the list. Thank you very much in advance! - Paul - -- Founder (one of), SAGE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 16 09:29:31 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1GHJx419016 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 09:19:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1GHJxT19011 for sage-members@usenix.org; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 09:19:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from igtc.igtc.com (IDENT:LGPBZAMe1/G4N46C0rreXkCFzs4bJETh@igtc.igtc.com [204.152.188.230]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1G2W4K14414 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:32:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pmm@localhost) by igtc.igtc.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1G2W4H32047 for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:32:04 -0800 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:32:04 -0800 From: "Paul M. Moriarty" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Help requested: What do your storage I/O workloads look like? Message-ID: <20020216023204.GD29611@igtc.igtc.com> Reply-To: pmm@igtc.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hello all, I am working with a company that is trying to get a feel for storage I/O workloads in different, high I/O, high capacity environments. I am appealing to the list for some assistance in this matter. No company-specific information will be shared without advance consent. There are just a few simple data points that I am trying to determine: - the ratio of reads/writes (avg per day, though peaks are interesting too) - block size - the I/O bandwidth consumed by this traffic (avg per day, peaks also interesting) - the size of the underlying storage being addressed - the type(s) of applications being run Please reply directly to me and I will summarize my findings to the list. Thank you very much in advance! - Paul - -- Founder (one of), SAGE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 16 10:47:07 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1GIavk19481 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:36:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from dpbox.dhs.org (dsl-216-227-100-85.telocity.com [216.227.100.85]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1GIahK19477 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:36:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from vector.usa.net (vector [192.168.0.50]) by dpbox.dhs.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g1GIaZA31870; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 12:36:36 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020216113214.046ceab8@pop.netaddress.com> X-Sender: dpuryear@pop.netaddress.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:36:58 -0600 To: v3@brug.org, brluglist@brlug.net, sage-members@usenix.org, general@br-issa.org, lafix-discuss@lafix.org From: Dustin Puryear Subject: [SAGE] load-sharing bandwidth.. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Has anyone configured some type of load-sharing across n Internet connections? Say, two DSL or T1 lines? We won't have upstream support from our provider so I am pretty sure load-balancing is out of the question. If not this, what about just using a few Internet connections for redundancy? Any experience with that? I'm looking for some input as this is my first time to attempt this. Regards, Dustin --- Dustin Puryear Information Systems Contractor http://members.telocity.com/~dpuryear PGP Key available at http://www.us.pgp.net In the beginning the Universe was created. This has been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 18 08:32:55 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1IGQKj03493 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:26:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from netrack.net (netrack.net [206.168.112.1]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1IGQDK03489 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:26:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from office.netrack.net (office.netrack.net [206.168.112.146]) by netrack.net (8.11.6/8.10.0) with ESMTP id g1IGPqD27950; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:25:52 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020218085048.025b8bb0@netrack.net> X-Sender: barb@netrack.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:25:50 -0700 To: Dustin Puryear From: Barb Dijker Subject: Re: [SAGE] load-sharing bandwidth.. Cc: v3@brug.org, brluglist@brlug.net, sage-members@usenix.org, general@br-issa.org, lafix-discuss@lafix.org In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020216113214.046ceab8@pop.netaddress.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 11:36 AM 2/16/02 -0600, Dustin Puryear wrote: >Has anyone configured some type of load-sharing across n Internet >connections? Say, two DSL or T1 lines? We won't have upstream support from >our provider so I am pretty sure load-balancing is out of the question. If >not this, what about just using a few Internet connections for redundancy? >Any experience with that? I'm looking for some input as this is my first >time to attempt this. I've done this on both sides of the fence: customer and ISP. Big pipes and little ones. Without the cooperation of your upstream provider(s), you are stuck with using different blocks of IP addresses, one for each ISP connection. Routing is the sticky issue with redundant connections, and the routing is wholly dependent upon your ISP propagating your routes as you intend. So without their cooperation, you get a different IP block from each upstream ISP. The trick then is to make sure that your traffic has the correct IP when it goes out each respective connection, such that answers can come back. If you are completely unroutable inside (RFC1918 addresses) and NAT outside, then this is not a problem and works well. You can have two default routes internally (one presumably preferred through whatever internal routing metric you use) and each border router does NAT appropriately out each respective ISP connection. Note that you can still have servers in such a scenario, you just need to be careful crafting your NAT table and test it thoroughly. Then you need to make sure your DNS records for the servers have both external addresses. There are drop-in solutions that provide this redundancy: a single NAT box with multiple externally addressable interfaces - so you can maintain a single default route internally. I don't recall any offhand, but I could dig if necessary. You should consider that if your ISP isn't interested in cooperating with your needs for redundancy, then a new ISP may be in order. With Cisco routers (everyone uses cisco, right?), load balancing circuits or even across routers is trivial. They should be eager for the business of your additional connection. Also consider the limitations of the physical medium. Most office buildings have one bundle of copper (or fiber) from the nearest "remote terminal" to the building. Often, multiple circuits are then carried from that remote terminal to the central office on one cable bundle or one conduit path. Usually one errant backhoe (or mux, or dacs, etc) between you and the telco central office will take both lines down. The probability of losing both circuits when one circuit goes down is often greater than 50%, unless you've taken great pains to get different telco carriers or paid one carrier for a physically "diverse" circuit (and they can actually provide it). In Qwest land it is called Sharp service. There are probably only 5% of all office buildings in the entire Denver metro area where they have diverse facilities to provide diverse circuits. ...Barb From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 18 08:34:33 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1IGVxw03531 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:31:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from lancerochelle.com (www.lancerochelle.com [209.61.182.189]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1IGVwK03527 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:31:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from apache@localhost) by lancerochelle.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1IGVu926432; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:31:56 -0500 Received: from 66.157.114.158 (SquirrelMail authenticated user randy) by www.deesfamily.com with HTTP; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:31:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1332.66.157.114.158.1014049916.squirrel@www.deesfamily.com> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:31:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] looking for robust web interface for IMAP From: "Randy Dees" To: In-Reply-To: References: X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cc: Reply-To: randy@deesfamily.com X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.4) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > If anyone knows of a comparable web interface to IMAP, PLEASE let me > know, on or off the list, as soon as you can spare a moment. Even a > URL would be great. We need something that can handle 40-50 thousand > users, roughly 300K messages a day, and isn't confused by dealing with > multiple IMAP servers. (Outlook Express has had issues due to their > "send and don't wait for response" implementation of IMAP.) > > Thanks for any info you can provide--this is going to be a great month! > Steve This may help: http://www.horde.org/papers/Scalable_webmail_HOWTO.php Although I disagree with several of the assertions being thrown around by the author, the approach seems reasonably sound. Good luck! From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 18 09:29:26 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1IHSYe04416 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:28:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from blues.hodgsonhouse.com (IDENT:postfix@blues.hodgsonhouse.com [24.72.10.211]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1IHSXK04412 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:28:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by blues.hodgsonhouse.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 92B737F5D0; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:26:47 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:26:47 -0600 From: Tillman Hodgson To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Centralized revision control Message-ID: <20020218112647.A26167@hodgsonhouse.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i X-Editor: Vim Rocks! http://www.vim.org X-Mailer: Mutt Rocks! http://www.mutt.org X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Howdy, I'm looking for a configuration management tool that has the following attributes: * Changelog mechanism: Allows administrive changes to be logged * Where changes include more than just config files: i.e, anything that an admin thinks should fall under change control should be logged * Revision control mechanism: CVS/RCS/Subversion-like and stored on a central host for ease of reporting * With the logs that these version controls provide, this could replace/supplement the general changelog for non-file-content changes * Process accounting, but only for administrative changes (i.e., I don't want to do accounting for root's cron jobs and a whack of users) * Some sort of reporting mechanism: In an ideal world, it would spit out LaTeX snippets ready for inclusion in a larger LaTeX report and for conversion to HTML ;-) * Simplified use: It should be easier to use the system than to work around it in order to encourage its use. If all else fails, I can do an NFS-mounted centralized sudo'ers config file (as it handles per-host configuration) and post big red signs around reminding folks to use a cvs edit/check-in routine and/or a changelog (for non-config file changes like creating symlinks).[1] That's sub-optimal, though. A neat idea I had was a special shell that could be executed via sudo that would automatically ask the user if a cvs edit or changelog was needed before executing the command, then execute the command, then ask ask if doing a check-in would be needed (if not, it could abandon changes). Handling multiple commands cleanly (pipes, etc) would complicate this nice scheme a bit, I suspect. Simply wrapping commands in the sudo'ers file would be complex ... I'd essentially have to wrap most /sbin and a fair chunk of /bin (I *would* like to know if an ifconfig or route command was run, for example). This makes operation across multiple Unixen pretty complex. - Tillman Footnotes: 1. sudo does nice process accouting, which is great because I don't want process accounting enabled for all accounts, just administrative changes. -- After watching my newly-retired dad spend two weeks learning how to make a new folder, it became obvious that "intuitive" mostly means "what the writer or speaker of intuitive likes". (Bruce Ediger, bediger@teal.csn.org, in comp.os.linux.misc, on the intuitiveness of a Mac interface.) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 18 09:50:42 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1IHo3D04615 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:50:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from minuet.das.harvard.edu (minuet.das.harvard.edu [140.247.50.251]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1IHo1K04611 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.12] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minuet.das.harvard.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA22340; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:49:54 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:49:42 -0500 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Lois Bennett Subject: [SAGE] SAGE Certification needs your help TODAY!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi All, I am writing to ask your help. We need three more junior level SAs to take the UNIX module of the certification TODAY to stay on schedule for the March 26 release of the full program. The cost is $50 using the discount code listed below. The test is being given worldwide at VUE testing centers. After today the cost will be $225. Please check our website for more information http://www.sagecert.org to register for the beta http://www.vue.com/sage >To Receive Your Discounted Beta Exam(s) > >Candidates MUST offer this promotion code while registering via the >telephone agent, a center administrator or the web site: > >Beta UNIX Module Exam Promo code: 207betaexam50 > >Each promotion code may be used 1 time per candidate. >Exam registration must be made on or before 02/18/2002. >Exam must be taken on or before 02/18/2002. If the promotion >code is not entered, the discount will not get applied. Thanks for your help. -- Lois B. Bennett Chair, SAGE Certification Governing Board (617) 496-5357 lois@sage.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 18 09:53:38 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1IHrZE04644 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:53:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from blues.hodgsonhouse.com (IDENT:postfix@blues.hodgsonhouse.com [24.72.10.211]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1IHrYK04639 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:53:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by blues.hodgsonhouse.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 001387F5D0; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:51:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:51:53 -0600 From: Tillman Hodgson To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] load-sharing bandwidth.. Message-ID: <20020218115153.B26167@hodgsonhouse.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020216113214.046ceab8@pop.netaddress.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020216113214.046ceab8@pop.netaddress.com>; from dpuryear@usa.net on Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 11:36:58AM -0600 X-Editor: Vim Rocks! http://www.vim.org X-Mailer: Mutt Rocks! http://www.mutt.org X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 11:36:58AM -0600, Dustin Puryear wrote: > Has anyone configured some type of load-sharing across n Internet > connections? Say, two DSL or T1 lines? We won't have upstream support from > our provider so I am pretty sure load-balancing is out of the question. If > not this, what about just using a few Internet connections for redundancy? > Any experience with that? I'm looking for some input as this is my first > time to attempt this. I've been playing with this a bit. Without using a dynamic routing protocol and having cooperating ISPs, you're pretty limited. For incoming connections you can "load balance" (abusing the term) incoming connections using round-robin DNS (or, alternatively, using bind's "views" you can avoid round-robin and do neat tricks with faking multiple name servers on a single host and giving out a possibly-more-appropriate answer depending on the source IP -- this is neat, but unlikely to work well for all but specialized user bases where the soruce IP's are well-known). Outgoing connections can be handled by an interior routing protocol. Alternatively, if you NAT outgoing connections, you can change which IP you NAT onto to "failover" outgoing connections. Handling failover/redundency in general is not easy, though. DNS has caching issues, changing NAT ip's breaks existing connections, etc. I find that many outages last under two minutes, and these issues push failover past that mark. Thus, the redundency can actually *extend* outage times by not being quick enough. Good exterior routing protocols with cooperation of the ISPs involved is really the best bet -- the NANOG mailing list archives can be helpful reading. - Tillman -- "Let me get this straight: I write a small Ethernet driver, that I admittedly give away, and Red Hat get to put in a box. And in return I get the complete source code and a license to do whatever I want with a complete 800MB operating system, and you're telling me Red Hat's taking advantage of me?" - Don Becker, NASA (developer of many network card drivers for Linux) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 18 10:00:29 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1II0IK04714 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:00:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from minuet.das.harvard.edu (minuet.das.harvard.edu [140.247.50.251]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1II0GK04710 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:00:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.12] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minuet.das.harvard.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA22580; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:00:15 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:57:45 -0500 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Lois Bennett Subject: [SAGE] Correction Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I just got word that the web registration through VUE (http://www.vue.com/sage) takes 24 hours so you will have to call not register on line. Sorry to have left this off my previous message. The toll free number for the US is (866) 288-8450 or check http://www.vue.com/contact/sage_numbers.html -- Lois B. Bennett Chair, SAGE Certification Governing Board (617) 496-5357 lois@sage.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 18 12:11:55 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1IK8fa05754 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:08:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj1-3-4-9.securesites.net (sj1-3-4-9.securesites.net [192.220.127.202]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1IK8dK05750 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:08:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15268 invoked by uid 18647); 18 Feb 2002 20:08:39 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:08:39 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] shell scripting Message-ID: <20020218120839.A14762@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <20020212211232.A2203@cc.hut.fi> <20020213093534.Q6808@loopback.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020213093534.Q6808@loopback.net>; from bandregg@loopback.net on Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 09:35:34AM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 09:35:34AM -0500, Bryan C. Andregg wrote: > Linux distributions usually ship bash, which happily takes the --posix option > making it behave quite standardly, I believe. not fully. I believe zsh is a more POSIX-compliant shell. (or was it zsh? ugh) and then there's always the option of just installing the latest ksh, if there isnt one on your box already. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 18 13:21:58 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1ILL9c08794 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:21:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from permanently.misplaced.net (mail@permanently.misplaced.net [209.45.245.152]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1ILL7K08790 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:21:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from btoneill@localhost) by permanently.misplaced.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g1ILL4202706; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:21:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:21:04 -0600 From: "Brian T. O'Neill" To: Tillman Hodgson Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Centralized revision control Message-ID: <20020218152104.B2151@permanently.misplaced.net> References: <20020218112647.A26167@hodgsonhouse.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020218112647.A26167@hodgsonhouse.com>; from tillman@hodgsonhouse.com on Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 11:26:47AM -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We currently use (well, sometimes) a script wrapper around vi for editing system files. Basically, when you sudo, it set's a bunch of aliases for common commands, one of them is the vi wrapper which checks files in and out when you edit them, and askes for text on the changes. Could easily do this for other programs. Ofcourse, it's by no means fullproof, but it solves the #1 issue with doing change control on these files, admin's forgetting to do it, or saying it's too much of a hassle. Now, it's a hassle for them not to do it. Your script wrapper could easily have a config file to decide if the file needs to be logged or not, based off of file name and machine name. Ofcourse, the biggest drawback to this system is security. You're now running a script off the central server on root on every server. If those files get changed, you could be trying to vi /etc/hosts and instead you just dd'd your disk, or created a 'toor' account for someone. Brian Quoting Tillman Hodgson (tillman@hodgsonhouse.com) from : > Howdy, > > I'm looking for a configuration management tool that has the following > attributes: > > * Changelog mechanism: Allows administrive changes to be logged > > * Where changes include more than just config files: i.e, anything > that an admin thinks should fall under change control should be > logged > > * Revision control mechanism: CVS/RCS/Subversion-like and stored on a > central host for ease of reporting > > * With the logs that these version controls provide, this could > replace/supplement the general changelog for non-file-content > changes > > * Process accounting, but only for administrative changes (i.e., I don't > want to do accounting for root's cron jobs and a whack of users) > > * Some sort of reporting mechanism: In an ideal world, it would spit out > LaTeX snippets ready for inclusion in a larger LaTeX report and for > conversion to HTML ;-) > > * Simplified use: It should be easier to use the system than to work > around it in order to encourage its use. > > If all else fails, I can do an NFS-mounted centralized sudo'ers config > file (as it handles per-host configuration) and post big red signs > around reminding folks to use a cvs edit/check-in routine and/or a > changelog (for non-config file changes like creating symlinks).[1] > That's sub-optimal, though. > > A neat idea I had was a special shell that could be executed via sudo > that would automatically ask the user if a cvs edit or changelog was > needed before executing the command, then execute the command, then ask > ask if doing a check-in would be needed (if not, it could abandon > changes). Handling multiple commands cleanly (pipes, etc) would > complicate this nice scheme a bit, I suspect. Simply wrapping commands > in the sudo'ers file would be complex ... I'd essentially have to wrap > most /sbin and a fair chunk of /bin (I *would* like to know if an > ifconfig or route command was run, for example). This makes operation > across multiple Unixen pretty complex. > > - Tillman > > > Footnotes: > > 1. sudo does nice process accouting, which is great because I don't want > process accounting enabled for all accounts, just administrative changes. > > -- > After watching my newly-retired dad spend two weeks learning how to make a new > folder, it became obvious that "intuitive" mostly means "what the writer or > speaker of intuitive likes". > (Bruce Ediger, bediger@teal.csn.org, in comp.os.linux.misc, on the > intuitiveness of a Mac interface.) -- brian btoneill@misplaced.net **************************************************************************** "I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe and what I believe -- I believe what I believe is right." - Dubya **************************************************************************** From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 18 15:54:58 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1INqfV09687 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:52:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from sm13.texas.rr.com (sm13.texas.rr.com [24.93.35.40]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1INqdK09683 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:52:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from shadow (cs2416091-111.houston.rr.com [24.160.91.111]) by sm13.texas.rr.com (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16) with SMTP id g1INsM6D001238 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:54:27 -0600 Message-ID: <003c01c1b8d7$58f95820$3c01a8c0@coats.org> From: "Jack Coats" To: Subject: [SAGE] Registrars & DNS Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:52:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I would like to host my site from home, but I have DHCP only available. Any suggestions for a good registrar that would allow updating DNS quickly? Suggestions? From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 18 18:02:21 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1J21Dp10378 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipop2 (ipop2.tm.net.my [202.188.0.246]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1J21CK10374 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:01:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from tm.net.my (imssd1-qfe1.secure.tmnet [192.168.3.56]) by ipop2.tm.net.my (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GRR00746C2QY7@ipop2.tm.net.my> for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:56:50 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [192.168.1.67] by imss1.tm.net.my (mshttpd); Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:56:23 +0800 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:56:23 +0800 From: sckhoo@tm.net.my Subject: [SAGE] DRC - DNS caching issue -[was load-sharing bandwidth..] To: Tillman Hodgson Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Message-id: <73234d2c.4d2c7323@tm.net.my> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Webmail Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk hi, > Handling failover/redundency in general is not easy, though. DNS has > caching issues, changing NAT ip's breaks existing connections, i am working with a large ISP and they wish to setup a DRC dor their internet servers. we are faced with the DNS caching issue when we have seperate IP address range in the primary and backup site. anyone in the list have any experience in it? rgds, sckhoo From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 18 21:42:31 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1J5fPl11733 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:41:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from clyde.its.caltech.edu (clyde.its.caltech.edu [131.215.48.174]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1J5fOK11729 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:41:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (sigje@localhost) by clyde.its.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA04046 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:41:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: clyde.its.caltech.edu: sigje owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:41:23 -0800 (PST) From: Jennifer Davis X-X-Sender: sigje@clyde To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] SAGE Certification needs your help TODAY!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk For people who actually did sign up and take this, where can we send our comments about the test in general? There was a place to comment each question as you went through, but no general comments section. Also, when will we find out about the results of all of this? (especially those of us who took the December test and were promised results in 8 weeks. I understand that there was a 'not enough Jr SAs took the test' problem, but we put in the time, effort, and the money and would like to see some kind of result :)) Finally, what is going on with Sys Admin? We (LISA goers) were promised a year subscription. I didn't see any information about this at LISA, but I asked at the desk. I was told that Sys Admin would be sending out email to all conference goers instructing them of how to get their year of subscription. What is going on? Thanks for your help! Jennifer From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 18 23:36:45 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1J7ZTL12502 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:35:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from grover.snew.com (grover.snew.com [206.136.66.62]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1J7ZLK12498 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified FAIL) for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:35:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from grover.snew.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grover.snew.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1J7ZGss017349 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:35:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by grover.snew.com (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1J7ZFGM017348; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:35:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:35:15 -0800 From: Chuck Yerkes To: Dustin Puryear Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Load-sharing or -balancing across DSL lines Message-ID: <20020218233515.A17130@snew.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020213104739.00a664a0@pop.netaddress.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020213104739.00a664a0@pop.netaddress.com>; from dpuryear@usa.net on Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 10:49:28AM -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > "Several DSL lines for performance" Er, why not a T1? I've found that DSL works OK, except during problems. The CLEC's (Bells, usually) put a pretty low priority on fixing DSL lines. Yeah, the Bell's get in the way of REAL ISPs fixing things, but being a T1 customer often gets you priority. It's also got the speed, tho you don't indicate what you need it for. I've certainly done multiple T1s (or 10Mb + T1 backup) using BGP for proper load balancing. Doing this with multiple providers is difficult these days (you pretty much need a /19 to get routed). Gear: Well, what are you trying to achieve? Good questions get better answers. Quoting Dustin Puryear (dpuryear@usa.net): > We are looking into getting several DSL lines for performance reasons. We > serve some web sites, although we aren't a public web hosting service, and > would like to load-balance across the DSL lines if possible. Has anyone > done this? If so, how? This should be similar to load-balancing/sharing > across any other kind of line really. We are using FreeBSD. Did you do this > using FreeBSD, Linux, or another host-based router or did you have to buy > specific gear to handle it? Hints, comments, suggestions? > > I am just now starting to dig around, and am just fishing for suggestions. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 00:32:43 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1J8WNa12870 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:32:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pop.snert.net (mail.snert.net [195.5.195.101]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1J8WHK12865 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:32:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from snert.com ([193.41.72.232]) by pop.snert.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1J8WFXt017928 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:32:15 +0100 Message-ID: <3C720D8A.5030600@snert.com> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:32:10 +0100 From: Anthony Howe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sage Subject: Re: [SAGE] Registrars & DNS References: <003c01c1b8d7$58f95820$3c01a8c0@coats.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I suggest looking into one of the many dynamic-DNS servers: http://www.dyndns.org/ Appears to be fairly popular and integrated in some SOHO router products from BEWAN, Zxyel, and possibly others. The above link does have links to another sites and services, one being a comprehensive list of dynamic-DNS services. Anthony Howe Jack Coats wrote: > I would like to host my site from home, but I have DHCP only > available. > Any suggestions for a good registrar that would allow updating DNS > quickly? > > Suggestions? > > -- Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus "Microsoft (cough, sputter, spit, !@#$%) ..." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 01:45:09 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1J9eGm13459 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 01:40:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from hki-smtp-1a-2.stonesoft.com ([192.89.38.178]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1J9eDK13446 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 01:40:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from hki-smtp-1a-2.stonesoft.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by hki-smtp-1a.stonesoft.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C8F914B5B9 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:40:12 +0200 (EET) Received: from sharon.stonesoft.com (sharon.stonesoft.com [172.16.49.23]) by hki-smtp-1a-2.stonesoft.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F5A614B5A9 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:40:12 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: [SAGE] load-sharing bandwidth.. To: sage-members@usenix.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.5 September 22, 2000 Message-ID: From: Mark.Boltz@stonesoft.com Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:40:07 +0200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on sharon/Stone(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 19.02.2002 11:40:12 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id g1J9eFK13447 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, There is another possibility. As a SAGE member and system and network administrator, I respect the fact that "vendor plugs" and marketing drivel aren't typically appropriate to the list, but in this particular case, it's a potential solution to the question posed, and of interest to the list. Using multiple ISPs, be they ISDN, DSL, cable modem or T1, etc. can now also be done by the firewall. Stonesoft has a new high availability firewall and VPN that can combine, and load balance multiple lines for improved Internet access. Tillman is correct that the method we use does mean that existing connections need to be re-established. On the other hand, the fastest link is always chosen, and if you are more concerned about the VPN, we can failover VPN connections transparent to the user. For more information, you can visit Stonesoft's Web site at http://www.stonesoft.com/. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Boltz Stonesoft Corp. Product Manager, StoneGate Itälahdenkatu 22a mark.boltz@stonesoft.com FIN-00210 Helsinki Tel: +358-9-4767 11 Finland Fax: +358-9-4767 1234 GSM: +358 40 763 5075 http://www.stonesoft.com "Enabling the secure, highly available enterprise." (SM) Tillman Hodgson cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: [SAGE] load-sharing bandwidth.. owner-sage-members@ usenix.org 18.02.2002 19:51 On Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 11:36:58AM -0600, Dustin Puryear wrote: > Has anyone configured some type of load-sharing across n Internet > connections? Say, two DSL or T1 lines? We won't have upstream support from > our provider so I am pretty sure load-balancing is out of the question. If > not this, what about just using a few Internet connections for redundancy? > Any experience with that? I'm looking for some input as this is my first > time to attempt this. I've been playing with this a bit. Without using a dynamic routing protocol and having cooperating ISPs, you're pretty limited. For incoming connections you can "load balance" (abusing the term) incoming connections using round-robin DNS (or, alternatively, using bind's "views" you can avoid round-robin and do neat tricks with faking multiple name servers on a single host and giving out a possibly-more-appropriate answer depending on the source IP -- this is neat, but unlikely to work well for all but specialized user bases where the soruce IP's are well-known). Outgoing connections can be handled by an interior routing protocol. Alternatively, if you NAT outgoing connections, you can change which IP you NAT onto to "failover" outgoing connections. Handling failover/redundency in general is not easy, though. DNS has caching issues, changing NAT ip's breaks existing connections, etc. I find that many outages last under two minutes, and these issues push failover past that mark. Thus, the redundency can actually *extend* outage times by not being quick enough. Good exterior routing protocols with cooperation of the ISPs involved is really the best bet -- the NANOG mailing list archives can be helpful reading. - Tillman -- "Let me get this straight: I write a small Ethernet driver, that I admittedly give away, and Red Hat get to put in a box. And in return I get the complete source code and a license to do whatever I want with a complete 800MB operating system, and you're telling me Red Hat's taking advantage of me?" - Don Becker, NASA (developer of many network card drivers for Linux) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 01:51:47 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1J9nCn13551 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 01:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from custos2.adm.arcor.net (custos2.arcor-ip.de [145.253.2.52]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1J9n2K13547 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 01:49:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by custos2.adm.arcor.net ( ARCOR.5.02) id KAA51990; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:48:49 +0100 Received: from ffmcl30916.bku.db.de(172.24.94.43), claiming to be "mail.aschemann.net" via SMTP (2.0.003) by custos2, id smtpdPEONqa; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:48:44 +0100 (MET) Received: (from ascheman@localhost) by mail.aschemann.net (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g1ILp1Y11467; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:51:01 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:50:05 +0100 From: Gerd Aschemann To: Lee Damon Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] root best practices Message-ID: <20020218225005.A11343@lap1.bku.db.de> References: <71E57122D51BD311AFB800A0C9F4986102F7A247@mail-cpk> <200202131741.g1DHfbHL029743@castle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <200202131741.g1DHfbHL029743@castle.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 09:41:37AM -0800, Lee Damon wrote: > > Now, what's the best practice for dealing with the shell environment > > after you su to root? Just remember to type tcsh every time? Modify > > root's startup files? Create an alternate root account that uses tcsh > > as it's default shell? > > The best practice: > 1. DO NOT su to root > 2. use sudo > 3. See #1 > 4. Leave root's environment as *clean* as possible. No different shell, > nothing in the path that doesn't come from the / partition. It is > your last hope for system recovery, and you don't want it to hang on > log in. > 5. See #1. 1. What do you think in general about several root accounts? I have been setting up misc. root accounts in different environments for different purposes during the last years, i.e., one XXXroot-Account for every natural root-user or one YYYroot-Account for the whole group of root-users. This gives me the opportunity for everybody to maintain its own root-environment (shell, $ENV, aliases, ...). The only issue is that you get XXXroot from ls/lsof/.../several-security-checkers/... every now and then, but I can live with that. Can somebody convince me to avoid this practice? 2. Additionally I make heavy use of ~XXXroot/.ssh/authorized_keys and only "su" by "ssh". This allows for some other nice things, e.g., maintaining system configuration with CVS: "CVS_RSH=ssh cvs -d XXX@cvsmaster:/... cvscmd ..." - besides avoiding root-restrictions to cvs, you can track down changes to real users, instead of real users. Any issues with this? Regards, -- Gerd Aschemann --- Veröffentlichen heißt Verändern (Carmen Thomas) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 04:07:48 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1JC31214393 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 04:03:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from aeon.conundrum.com (IDENT:root@aeon.conundrum.com [216.235.9.140]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1JC2xK14389 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 04:03:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.conundrum.com (smtp.conundrum.com [216.235.9.134]) by aeon.conundrum.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA37985; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:02:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mattp@conundrum.com) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:02:39 -0500 (EST) From: Matt of the Long Red Hair To: Gerd Aschemann cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] root best practices In-Reply-To: <20020218225005.A11343@lap1.bku.db.de> Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.conundrum.com/~mattp/ X-PGP-Key: 3D55E6F4 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 4C10 78AF 9257 F8AE 15F4 801D 16AC DF71 3D55 E6F4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 18 Feb 2002, Gerd Aschemann wrote: > 1. What do you think in general about several root accounts? I have > been setting up misc. root accounts in different environments for > different purposes during the last years, i.e., one XXXroot-Account > for every natural root-user or one YYYroot-Account for the whole [...] > 2. Additionally I make heavy use of ~XXXroot/.ssh/authorized_keys and > only "su" by "ssh". This allows for some other nice things, e.g., Combining these two is, IMHO, pretty nasty. 2. opens up remote root access to your machine, unless you're very careful about which interface(s) your sshd is listening on. Even if you're limiting that, I still think it's a bad idea that should be avoided at all costs (admittedly, I have found it necessary once or twice myself, but only with carefully firewalled hosts). Combining remote root login with 1. above means that you also have multiple points of remote root access to your system, which sounds just evil. It certainly seems like your CVS setup can be accomplished just as well with judicious use of sudo and a cvs server running non-root. I'd recommend sticking with a single root user which you only login to in single user, and spread sudo access around to those who need to be root; you can track real UIDs just as easily this way. Cheers, Matt Pounsett ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ``Forum, not tone. That pile question. Whether tip Miller into mind to suffer tie songs and crows oh courageous fortune or to gun and Mar it. -- Haircut'' -- William Shakespeare's "Hamlet" as misquoted by an early-model Newton. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 04:48:27 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1JClog14594 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 04:47:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntmail.gamespy.com ([207.199.1.98]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1JClmK14590 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 04:47:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [68.15.171.35] by ntmail.captured.com (NTMail 7.00.0022/AX0191.00.1ce0e1da) with ESMTP id rmjgshaa for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 04:47:48 -0800 From: "Jerald Sheets" To: Cc: Subject: RE: [SAGE] root best practices Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 06:48:38 -0600 Message-ID: <000201c1b943$c10b3890$0a00a8c0@ranch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <20020218225005.A11343@lap1.bku.db.de> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk To everyone involved: I have a situiation where my vendors require "root" to do the install work as well as many regular system administration tasks. So much so that when doing the install, I have to be there, do the install work for them, and do all the work they would normally do as root, because I will simply *NOT* give out my root password. There is anecdotal evidence in our enterprise that anything other than a *DIRECT* Console login, or root ssh/terminal logins will not work. A) Have you heard of this? B) In these events, have you ever been able to come to a "meeting of the minds" with a development company (we're talking about our primary application around which the entire business rotates) as to the appropriate best practices for root's logins? If so, how did you approach it, and how did you involve your management(and effectively evangelize them to the importance of this issue)? C) Have any of you been in a situation where the company involved claimed that the natural root user was required and "su" or "sudo" simply would not work? It was my inderstanding that by use of the "su -" command, you effectively *became* root. That there was no functional difference. Any of you folks familiar enough with how this stuff is coded to perhaps shed light on why an application might not be able to use a non-direct root login? Keep in mind that I haven't experienced this myself, but have been told "It won't work" and "don't even try" by my partners. My purpose here is to clean up some of the login practices and tighten down security as much as I can. There are still *MANY* root logins happening via telnet **GASP** which the security officer and I cringe at the thought of. I intend to get a meeting scheduled to bring up this subject and/or demonstrate it's weakness, and just was wondering what you guys thought about it. Yes, we have a full firewall/DMZ/private network structure, and from my experience, anyone except IT personnel is dumb as a rock regarding things of computers, and the only sniffing they've ever done is during their most recent cold. But for every 5000 employees that fit the Lemmings description, there's one or two who are familiar with various black hat techniques, and for me this risk is greater than I care to leave hanging out there. Comments? Suggestions? Jerald Sheets From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 07:36:38 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1JFZbc15571 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1JFZb215566 for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from tiamat.obscure.org (IDENT:root@w247.z064003036.was-dc.dsl.cnc.net [64.3.36.247]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1JFVTK15520 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lalartu@localhost) by tiamat.obscure.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1JFVSX29835; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:31:28 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:31:28 -0500 From: Shawn Ferry To: sage-members@usenix.org, dc-sage@dc-sage.org Subject: Re: [dc-sage] RE: [SAGE] root best practices Message-ID: <20020219153128.GB26508@tiamat.obscure.org> Mail-Followup-To: Shawn Ferry , sage-members@usenix.org, dc-sage@dc-sage.org References: <20020218225005.A11343@lap1.bku.db.de> <000201c1b943$c10b3890$0a00a8c0@ranch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000201c1b943$c10b3890$0a00a8c0@ranch> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Mailer: Mutt http://www.mutt.org/ X-Info: http://www.obscure.org/~lalartu X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > There is anecdotal evidence in our enterprise that anything other than a > *DIRECT* Console login, or root ssh/terminal logins will not work. If I were to guess, it's probably env problems which you mention below. > A) Have you heard of this? > B) In these events, have you ever been able to come to a "meeting of the > minds" with a development company (we're talking about our primary > application around which the entire business rotates) as to the > appropriate best practices for root's logins? If so, how did you > approach it, and how did you involve your management(and effectively > evangelize them to the importance of this issue)? Yes and no. No in that "this is not really a problem" was the managment attitude. Yes in that we would login and give the installer the shell (in a multi-reboot situation we would change it until they are done). > C) Have any of you been in a situation where the company involved > claimed that the natural root user was required and "su" or "sudo" > simply would not work? > > > It was my inderstanding that by use of the "su -" command, you > effectively *became* root. That there was no functional difference. > Any of you folks familiar enough with how this stuff is coded to perhaps > shed light on why an application might not be able to use a non-direct > root login? > > Keep in mind that I haven't experienced this myself, but have been told > "It won't work" and "don't even try" by my partners. Yes, I have also seen some strange behavior with su(although I think limited to linux). Even after an "su -" some commands execute as the user calling su. I have never seen this behavior in solaris(and can't really give much more information about it.) A quick check has shown the propper behavior on a recent debian install. > > > My purpose here is to clean up some of the login practices and tighten > down security as much as I can. There are still *MANY* root logins > happening via telnet **GASP** which the security officer and I cringe at > the thought of. I intend to get a meeting scheduled to bring up this > subject and/or demonstrate it's weakness, and just was wondering what > you guys thought about it. Yes, we have a full firewall/DMZ/private > network structure, and from my experience, anyone except IT personnel is > dumb as a rock regarding things of computers, and the only sniffing > they've ever done is during their most recent cold. But for every 5000 > employees that fit the Lemmings description, there's one or two who are > familiar with various black hat techniques, and for me this risk is > greater than I care to leave hanging out there. > > Comments? Suggestions? In my last few position we disabled all plain text access(with the exception of a few public ftp servers). We used a combination of ssh and kerberos. If you have 10 of thousands of users rolling out the above change could be a huge process(one that I think is worth it). You might be able to transition people from telnet to ssh by implementing a plain text login penalty. Deploy ssh to your users then change telnet logins to have a time delay. Say start at 2s and over time move to 7-10s. "I don't know why your login is so slow. Have you tried ssh, it's fast?" From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 08:06:25 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1JG5vP15853 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:05:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from zoidberg.zoidbergconspiracy.org (zoidberg.colo.jalan.com [12.129.162.4]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1JG5uK15848 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:05:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.zoidbergconspiracy.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72CBA3F62; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:54:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:54:52 -0800 (PST) From: Thornton Prime X-X-Sender: thornton@zoidberg.zoidbergconspiracy.org To: Jerald Sheets Cc: "sage-members@usenix.org" , "dc-sage@dc-sage.org" Subject: RE: [SAGE] root best practices In-Reply-To: <000201c1b943$c10b3890$0a00a8c0@ranch> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 19 Feb 2002, Jerald Sheets wrote: > C) Have any of you been in a situation where the company involved > claimed that the natural root user was required and "su" or "sudo" > simply would not work? Yes, and in every case they were either completely ignorant or were intentionally trying to circumvent our security policies. Giving root access in either case (to someone who is either ignorant or malicious) should raise serious concerns. In one case I had a developer who wanted to write a script that would telnet as root to trigger an operation remotely. While not all requests for root password access were as extreme as this, all posed serious security risks where equivalent (or even simpler) and more secure alternatives were available. > It was my inderstanding that by use of the "su -" command, you > effectively *became* root. That there was no functional difference. You are absolutely right. su, sudo, and a variety of other mechanisms (ssh authorized keys with command restrictions, etc.) all are root access, plain and simple. The best defense is well documented security policies and enforcement. Management that understands security issues and takes them seriously is also helpful. It is worth noting that recently an online credit card processor was discovered to have a publiclly accessible database of all the hostnames and passwords for all the customers who had given them access for the purpose of installing their processing software. In many cases, people had given the vendor root access. It was a complete nightmare. Moral of the story is that wherever your root password goes, there goes your security policy. thornton From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 08:18:19 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1JGI3i15969 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:18:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntmail.gamespy.com ([207.199.1.98]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1JGI2K15965 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:18:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [64.56.25.254] by ntmail.captured.com (NTMail 7.00.0022/AX0191.00.1ce0e1da) with ESMTP id vxzhshaa for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:17:57 -0800 From: "Jerald Sheets" To: "'Shawn Ferry'" , , Subject: RE: [dc-sage] RE: [SAGE] root best practices Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:17:30 -0600 Message-ID: <000d01c1b960$ee1cd330$321514ac@wagon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 In-Reply-To: <20020219153128.GB26508@tiamat.obscure.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk "I don't know why your login is so slow. Have you tried ssh, it's fast?" Now *THAT* is dirty. ;-) --JMS From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 08:33:52 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1JGTl016093 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:29:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1JGTiK16089 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:29:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mjs@localhost) by ams.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1JGTaqY011143; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:29:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:29:36 -0500 (EST) From: Matt Studley To: Jerald Sheets cc: sage-members@usenix.org, Subject: RE: [SAGE] root best practices In-Reply-To: <000201c1b943$c10b3890$0a00a8c0@ranch> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 1.0 (http://www.roaringpenguin.com/mimedefang/) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Well, in so far as "su -" effectively making you root this is true to the point where you are the user root and have the user root's environment. When you run a "whoami" it returns that you are user root, however running a "who am i" returns your original login id. Whatever you are trying to install could be looking at your actual UID instead of the effective UID. As for the root telnet, that shouldn't be allowed period. You really shouldn't log in as root (even through SSH). Turn off port 23 and make people use SSH. There are plenty of ways to make this transparent to the user community so you don't have to make them change their work habbits. Take a look at SSH port forwarding. Hope this helps a little bit. Matt Studley American Mathematical Society UNIX Sys Admin "Quantum Mechanics - mjs@ams.org The dreams that stuff is made of" On Tue, 19 Feb 2002, Jerald Sheets wrote: > To everyone involved: > > I have a situiation where my vendors require "root" to do the install > work as well as many regular system administration tasks. So much so > that when doing the install, I have to be there, do the install work for > them, and do all the work they would normally do as root, because I will > simply *NOT* give out my root password. > > There is anecdotal evidence in our enterprise that anything other than a > *DIRECT* Console login, or root ssh/terminal logins will not work. > > A) Have you heard of this? > B) In these events, have you ever been able to come to a "meeting of the > minds" with a development company (we're talking about our primary > application around which the entire business rotates) as to the > appropriate best practices for root's logins? If so, how did you > approach it, and how did you involve your management(and effectively > evangelize them to the importance of this issue)? > C) Have any of you been in a situation where the company involved > claimed that the natural root user was required and "su" or "sudo" > simply would not work? > > > It was my inderstanding that by use of the "su -" command, you > effectively *became* root. That there was no functional difference. > Any of you folks familiar enough with how this stuff is coded to perhaps > shed light on why an application might not be able to use a non-direct > root login? > > Keep in mind that I haven't experienced this myself, but have been told > "It won't work" and "don't even try" by my partners. > > > My purpose here is to clean up some of the login practices and tighten > down security as much as I can. There are still *MANY* root logins > happening via telnet **GASP** which the security officer and I cringe at > the thought of. I intend to get a meeting scheduled to bring up this > subject and/or demonstrate it's weakness, and just was wondering what > you guys thought about it. Yes, we have a full firewall/DMZ/private > network structure, and from my experience, anyone except IT personnel is > dumb as a rock regarding things of computers, and the only sniffing > they've ever done is during their most recent cold. But for every 5000 > employees that fit the Lemmings description, there's one or two who are > familiar with various black hat techniques, and for me this risk is > greater than I care to leave hanging out there. > > Comments? Suggestions? > > Jerald Sheets > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 08:59:37 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1JGs7i16382 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:54:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntmail.gamespy.com ([207.199.1.98]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1JGs6K16378 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:54:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [64.56.25.254] by ntmail.captured.com (NTMail 7.00.0022/AX0191.00.1ce0e1da) with ESMTP id grgishaa for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:54:01 -0800 From: "Jerald Sheets" To: , Cc: Subject: RE: [dc-sage] RE: [SAGE] root best practices Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:53:33 -0600 Message-ID: <001001c1b965$f80f43f0$321514ac@wagon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I've seen this reference a couple of times, so I'll clarify: I've given root access to no one. Instead, I've had to stay late and such to do software installs *as* root because I refuse to give them root. We come in early, leave late for such situations (and even some weekend work). Point is, I refuse to give root, and as a result it keeps me here. Just getting a general survey of what all you folk do, to compile into a listing of emails (names removed/changed to protect the guilty) to present to management. I've already got the password traces (including the CEO's personal password, thank you very much) and am just compiling a hard-hitting enough security meeting to slam-dunk this issue. --JMS -----Original Message----- From: owner-dc-sage@dc-sage.org [mailto:owner-dc-sage@dc-sage.org] On Behalf Of kweschle@csc.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 9:46 AM To: dc-sage@dc-sage.org Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [dc-sage] RE: [SAGE] root best practices I had a couple experiences that should be thought about when giving root access to everyone: From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 10:10:17 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1JI7Me17342 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:07:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from lanning.cc ([63.166.8.14]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1JI7LK17338 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:07:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lanning@localhost) by lanning.cc (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g1JI7I604067; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:07:18 -0800 From: Robert Hajime Lanning Message-Id: <200202191807.g1JI7I604067@lanning.cc> Subject: Re: [SAGE] root best practices To: questy@captured.com (Jerald Sheets) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:07:17 -0800 (PST) Cc: sage-members@usenix.org, dc-sage@dc-sage.org In-Reply-To: <000201c1b943$c10b3890$0a00a8c0@ranch> from "Jerald Sheets" at Feb 19, 2002 06:48:38 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I have never looked into the actual "su" code. Does is set both euid and ruid? Or is it like an suid binary, where only euid is set? The reason for asking is that some programs (sendmail) reset the euid back to the ruid when certain options are set. (sendmail -C) I (at one point in time) had to modify the su source to set the ruid right before the exec of the shell/command. ---- As written by Jerald Sheets: > > To everyone involved: > > I have a situiation where my vendors require "root" to do the install > work as well as many regular system administration tasks. So much so > that when doing the install, I have to be there, do the install work for > them, and do all the work they would normally do as root, because I will > simply *NOT* give out my root password. > > There is anecdotal evidence in our enterprise that anything other than a > *DIRECT* Console login, or root ssh/terminal logins will not work. > > A) Have you heard of this? > B) In these events, have you ever been able to come to a "meeting of the > minds" with a development company (we're talking about our primary > application around which the entire business rotates) as to the > appropriate best practices for root's logins? If so, how did you > approach it, and how did you involve your management(and effectively > evangelize them to the importance of this issue)? > C) Have any of you been in a situation where the company involved > claimed that the natural root user was required and "su" or "sudo" > simply would not work? > > > It was my inderstanding that by use of the "su -" command, you > effectively *became* root. That there was no functional difference. > Any of you folks familiar enough with how this stuff is coded to perhaps > shed light on why an application might not be able to use a non-direct > root login? > > Keep in mind that I haven't experienced this myself, but have been told > "It won't work" and "don't even try" by my partners. > > > My purpose here is to clean up some of the login practices and tighten > down security as much as I can. There are still *MANY* root logins > happening via telnet **GASP** which the security officer and I cringe at > the thought of. I intend to get a meeting scheduled to bring up this > subject and/or demonstrate it's weakness, and just was wondering what > you guys thought about it. Yes, we have a full firewall/DMZ/private > network structure, and from my experience, anyone except IT personnel is > dumb as a rock regarding things of computers, and the only sniffing > they've ever done is during their most recent cold. But for every 5000 > employees that fit the Lemmings description, there's one or two who are > familiar with various black hat techniques, and for me this risk is > greater than I care to leave hanging out there. > > Comments? Suggestions? > > Jerald Sheets > > > -- END OF LINE. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 10:45:35 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1JIebi17990 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:40:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from bos-gate2.raytheon.com (bos-gate2.raytheon.com [199.46.198.231]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1JIeWK17984 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:40:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ds02e00.directory.ray.com (ds02e00.directory.ray.com [147.25.130.245]) by bos-gate2.raytheon.com (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id g1JIePO29891 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:40:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds02e00.directory.ray.com (root@localhost) by ds02e00.directory.ray.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g1JIeMV1008044 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:40:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com (seasnake.RSC.RAYTHEON.COM [147.17.205.60]) by ds02e00.directory.ray.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g1JIdudb007859 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:39:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from seasnake (seasnake [147.17.205.60]) by seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA08882 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:39:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200202191839.KAA08882@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:39:56 -0800 (PST) From: Mario Obejas Reply-To: Mario Obejas Subject: RE: [SAGE] root best practices To: sage-members@usenix.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: 4RpmDpxTGftqzjHcMOu/1g== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4.2 SunOS 5.8 sun4u sparc X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Long ago I learned that even though the vendor instructions said to install as root, it was worth automatically trying to do so as a regular user. Sometimes the vendor will provide the rationale (e.g., file x needs to be modified). In that case I just modify the file ahead of time if possible (especially /etc/services and /etc/inetd.conf). Sometimes no rationale is provided for why root is required. YMMV, but in my experience, that flags a higher probability that the install does *not* require root. Somebody just needed to ship. Anybody else attempting non-root installs, contrary to the instructions, as a first attempt? Mario Obejas Engineering Automation & Computing Raytheon Electronic Systems 310-334-7201 (Voice) 310-366-4867 (Pager) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 10:56:52 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1JIscO18373 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1JIscq18368 for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from tiamat.obscure.org (IDENT:root@w247.z064003036.was-dc.dsl.cnc.net [64.3.36.247]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1JINFK17712 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:23:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lalartu@localhost) by tiamat.obscure.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1JINEm03695; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:23:14 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:23:14 -0500 From: Shawn Ferry To: sage-members@usenix.org, dc-sage@dc-sage.org Subject: Re: [dc-sage] RE: [SAGE] root best practices Message-ID: <20020219182314.GF26508@tiamat.obscure.org> Mail-Followup-To: Shawn Ferry , sage-members@usenix.org, dc-sage@dc-sage.org References: <000d01c1b960$ee1cd330$321514ac@wagon> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Mailer: Mutt http://www.mutt.org/ X-Info: http://www.obscure.org/~lalartu X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Janitor Of Lunacy : > On Tue, 19 Feb 2002, Jerald Sheets wrote: > > > > > > > > "I don't know why your login is so slow. Have you tried ssh, it's fast?" > > > > Now *THAT* is dirty. ;-) > > dumb question: why not just remove telnet, and then create a Link called > telnet, which is really /usr/bin/ssh, or whereever ssh is on your > systems? > the only thing the user will notice is that they just get prompted for > username and password, and nothing else. > I'm not sure why the switch throws users into loops.. It is possible though not likly that in an environment with a high number of users that the majority of users would be running an operating system which supports the example above. Another major problem with this is that you have different behavior. ssh assumes that you are attempting to login as your current user and sends that information to the remote host at connect time. You would have to teach people to "telnet -l host" and that "telnet " doesn't work anymore. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 10:57:51 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1JItep18396 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:55:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1JItdi18391 for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:55:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pluto.forumone.com (pluto.forumone.com [207.32.101.4]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1JIgTK18024 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:42:29 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4712.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [dc-sage] RE: [SAGE] root best practices Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:38:32 -0500 Message-ID: <167A8E86FDBBC543A6B88985A430D5F51B811E@pluto.forumone.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [dc-sage] RE: [SAGE] root best practices Thread-Index: AcG5c3bQY7ydMF8lTP24u5B/Iv7KPgAADmIg From: "Nyk Cowham" To: "Shawn Ferry" , , X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id g1JIgUK18025 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > > dumb question: why not just remove telnet, and then create > a Link called > > telnet, which is really /usr/bin/ssh, or whereever ssh is on your > > systems? > > the only thing the user will notice is that they just get > prompted for > > username and password, and nothing else. > > I'm not sure why the switch throws users into loops.. > > It is possible though not likly that in an environment with a > high number of > users that the majority of users would be running an > operating system which > supports the example above. > > Another major problem with this is that you have different behavior. > > ssh assumes that you are attempting to login as your current > user and sends > that information to the remote host at connect time. You > would have to teach > people to "telnet -l host" and that "telnet > " doesn't > work anymore. Why not replace telnet with a wrapper? It should be simple to write a perl script that will take the options usually passed to telnet, do a conversion on the request and pass the request on to slogin and connect the person to a live ssh connection. The user would never know the difference. Nyk Cowham Forum One Communications http://www.forumone.com/ Communicate Collaborate Change the world From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 10:58:15 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1JIu6318414 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:56:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1JIu6518409 for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:56:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from tiamat.obscure.org (IDENT:root@w247.z064003036.was-dc.dsl.cnc.net [64.3.36.247]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1JIrdK18334 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lalartu@localhost) by tiamat.obscure.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1JIrcQ04768; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:53:38 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:53:38 -0500 From: Shawn Ferry To: sage-members@usenix.org, dc-sage@dc-sage.org Subject: Re: [dc-sage] RE: [SAGE] root best practices Message-ID: <20020219185338.GH26508@tiamat.obscure.org> Mail-Followup-To: Shawn Ferry , sage-members@usenix.org, dc-sage@dc-sage.org References: <167A8E86FDBBC543A6B88985A430D5F51B811E@pluto.forumone.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <167A8E86FDBBC543A6B88985A430D5F51B811E@pluto.forumone.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Mailer: Mutt http://www.mutt.org/ X-Info: http://www.obscure.org/~lalartu X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Why not replace telnet with a wrapper? It should be simple to write a > perl script that will take the options usually passed to telnet, do a > conversion on the request and pass the request on to slogin and connect > the person to a live ssh connection. The user would never know the > difference. I thought about that and I can't see anything wrong with the general concept. However it only addresses your non-windows users. It also does not address the difference in behavior for things like "telnet localhost 143". I need a plain text high level mechanism that I can use to test the service running on port 143. Ssh would die becuase it can not initiate the connection. The major problem is user training. You users are outside your network and they know that telnet is secure so they telnet to the DMZ with a plain text password. Better to teach the propper secure access method. You could just kerberize everything grab tickets at both UNIX and windows logins and require auth on telnet. This is less seamless. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 11:30:21 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1JJRcV18977 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:27:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from bunrab.catwhisker.org (adsl-63-193-123-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.123.122]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1JJRUK18966 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:27:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from david@localhost) by bunrab.catwhisker.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1JJRSP66200; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:27:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:27:28 -0800 (PST) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <200202191927.g1JJRSP66200@bunrab.catwhisker.org> To: questy@captured.com Subject: RE: [dc-sage] RE: [SAGE] root best practices Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <001001c1b965$f80f43f0$321514ac@wagon> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >From: "Jerald Sheets" >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:53:33 -0600 >I've given root access to no one. Instead, I've had to stay late and >such to do software installs *as* root because I refuse to give them >root. We come in early, leave late for such situations (and even some >weekend work). Point is, I refuse to give root, and as a result it >keeps me here. Just getting a general survey of what all you folk do, >to compile into a listing of emails (names removed/changed to protect >the guilty) to present to management.... Sorry it's taken me a while to recall the particulars in sufficient detail to be of use to anyone, but.... About 2 or 3 years ago, we had a representative of a company come on-site for a few weeks to get the company's software set up in our environment. The software in question needed root for installation. What we did was set up a FreeBSD machine for him, then placed it in a special subnet of the DMZ network, and gave him root accss to that machine. One of my colleagues in Engineering worked with the fellow -- about all I did was set up the FreeBSD box initially, hook it to the net, and (eventually) take it back down again (once the software had been installed, and the configuration copied to other machines). (I note that in that environment, my colleagues in Engineering had root access to their own workstations -- most of them were doing software development that entailed rebuilding not only the locally-developed software, but also the FreeBSD kernel and user-land, within a chroot()ed environment. The resulting code was then loaded onto a customized PC, masquerading as an embedded system, as the product of the effort.) Cheers, david (links to my resume at http://www.catwhisker.org/~david) -- David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org I believe it would be irresponsible (and thus, unethical) for me to advise, recommend, or support the use of any product that is or depends on any Microsoft product for any purpose other than personal amusement. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 12:52:19 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1JKkmd20809 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:46:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-server6.tampabay.rr.com (smtp-server6.tampabay.rr.com [65.32.1.43]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1JKklK20805 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from rhinosaur.home.loudermilk.org (65.35.43.253.altamonte-ubr-b.cfl.rr.com [65.35.43.253]) by smtp-server6.tampabay.rr.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g1JKkdf12249 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:46:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from loudermilk.org (jlouder@localhost) by rhinosaur.home.loudermilk.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1JKkdK31578 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:46:39 -0500 Message-Id: <200202192046.g1JKkdK31578@rhinosaur.home.loudermilk.org> From: Joel Loudermilk Reply-To: Joel Loudermilk To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] root best practices In-reply-to: Message from "Jerald Sheets" of "Tue, 19 Feb 2002 06:48:38 CST." <000201c1b943$c10b3890$0a00a8c0@ranch> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:46:38 -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk +- On Tuesday (2/19/2002 6:48) "Jerald Sheets" Wrote- | C) Have any of you been in a situation where the company involved | claimed that the natural root user was required and "su" or "sudo" | simply would not work? For what it's worth, my company uses Veritas Hierarchical Storage Manager, and the group internally that supports that software claimed to need to know the actual root password to set it up -- they said sudo wouldn't work. What we found out was that the Veritas HSM administration GUI prompts for root's password before it will start. We even tried making another UID 0 account, but it wouldn't work without the *real* root's password. Although this is the only product I've ever seen that had this requirement, there are probably more. Your vendors may well be mistaken, but there's at least a chance they're correct. -- Joel Loudermilk From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 16:20:22 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1K0H9R29441 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:17:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from grover.snew.com (grover.snew.com [206.136.66.62]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1K0GwK29436 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified FAIL) for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:17:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from grover.snew.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grover.snew.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1K0Glss024353 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:16:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by grover.snew.com (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1K0GkhH024352; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:16:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:16:46 -0800 From: Chuck Yerkes To: Matt Studley Cc: sage-members@usenix.org, dc-sage@dc-sage.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] root best practices Message-ID: <20020219161646.B24029@snew.com> References: <000201c1b943$c10b3890$0a00a8c0@ranch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from mjs@ams.org on Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 11:29:36AM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Matt Studley (mjs@ams.org): > Whatever you are trying to > install could be looking at your actual UID instead of the effective UID. > As for the root telnet, that shouldn't be allowed period. You really I tend to remove telnetd from all of my machines. On production machines, I've generated random root passwords, written them down put them in envelopes and shoved them in the company owner's safe (or a locked drawer, or whatever). Now they have the root password for emergencies. I can see if the envelope's been opened. Everyone who needs access gets sudo access. Generally, if there are a couple admins, they get full access and we are in close contact. For developer types who "need" root for their desktops, they get access to the commands they need. I get an audit trail. ksu (kerberos su) is also acceptable for some forms of access. I've had developers who, in the course of coding, have changed their /etc/services and forgotten about it until well after their code wouldn't work during a test install. They DONT get root on the test environments :) a periodic "cvs diff" of their /etc/ isn't a bad idea. Life sucked before I knew RCS and CVS. Key tools for system admin. When an admin leaves, is transferred, whatever, I remove THEIR account. Since nobody knows the root password, I don't have to run around and change 40 passwords. I've worked as a consultant at places who didn't follow the path of light and sudo where the root pw's changed regularly, so they had to write them down. All for the extra security :) chuck From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 19 19:06:58 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1K34QX29289 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:04:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from minuet.das.harvard.edu (minuet.das.harvard.edu [140.247.50.251]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1K34PK29285 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:04:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [140.247.51.64] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minuet.das.harvard.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA23757; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:04:20 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:04:13 -0500 To: Jennifer Davis From: Lois Bennett Subject: Re: [SAGE] SAGE Certification needs your help TODAY!! Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 9:41 PM -0800 2/18/02, Jennifer Davis wrote: >For people who actually did sign up and take this, where can we send our >comments about the test in general? There was a place to comment each >question as you went through, but no general comments section. Please send comments to Stacy Gildenston, Managing Consultant, stacy@sage.org. You can also email the Program Board at sage-cert-board@sage.org. >Also, when will we find out about the results of all of this? (especially >those of us who took the December test and were promised results in 8 >weeks. I understand that there was a 'not enough Jr SAs took the test' >problem, but we put in the time, effort, and the money and would like to >see some kind of result :)) We won't know what the passing score is on the exam until all the data is in and the analysis is complete. Your score will more accurate and valid because of the additional data. The analysis is taking place this weekend five days after the final data is in. I expect that results will be sent out within a couple of weeks after that work is completed. >Finally, what is going on with Sys Admin? We (LISA goers) were promised a >year subscription. I didn't see any information about this at LISA, but I >asked at the desk. I was told that Sys Admin would be sending out email >to all conference goers instructing them of how to get their year of >subscription. What is going on? Sorry that is not a Certification issue and you will need to enquire with the USENIX office. > >Thanks for your help! > >Jennifer Lois B. Bennett Chair, SAGE Certification Governing Board -- ********************************************************************** Lois B. Bennett Senior System Administrator Division of Engineering and Applied Sciences (617) 496-5357 Harvard University FAX:(617) 495-9837 33 Oxford Street - MD G109 lois@deas.harvard.edu Cambridge, MA 02138 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 20 01:22:15 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1K9IlB19878 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 01:18:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from viruswall.pliva.hr (wall.pliva.hr [195.29.208.9]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1K9IhK19874 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 01:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from merctech.com (IDENT:root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by viruswall.pliva.hr (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23767 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:18:30 +0100 From: bergman@merctech.com Received: from piquin (bergman@localhost) by merctech.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g1K9HcH12678; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:17:38 +0100 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 12/06/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Chuck Yerkes cc: sage-members@usenix.org Reply-To: bergman@merctech.com Subject: Re: [SAGE] root best practices In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:16:46 PST." <20020219161646.B24029@snew.com> References: <20020219161646.B24029@snew.com> <000201c1b943$c10b3890$0a00a8c0@ranch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:17:38 +0100 Message-ID: <12677.1014196658@piquin> X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In your message dated: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:16:46 PST, The pithy ruminations from Chuck Yerkes on were: => Quoting Matt Studley (mjs@ams.org): => > Whatever you are trying to => > install could be looking at your actual UID instead of the effective UID. => > As for the root telnet, that shouldn't be allowed period. You really => => I tend to remove telnetd from all of my machines. => On production machines, I've generated random root passwords, => written them down put them in envelopes and shoved them in the => company owner's safe (or a locked drawer, or whatever). => Now they have the root password for emergencies. I can see if => the envelope's been opened. Reasonable policy. => => Everyone who needs access gets sudo access. => Generally, if there are a couple admins, they get full access ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ => and we are in close contact. For developer types who "need" => root for their desktops, they get access to the commands they => need. I get an audit trail. => => ksu (kerberos su) is also acceptable for some forms of access. [SNIP!] => => When an admin leaves, is transferred, whatever, I remove THEIR account. => Since nobody knows the root password, I don't have to run around and ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ => change 40 passwords. Basic logical inconsistency here: If the admin had full sudo access, you have no way to know that they didn't change the root password and simply munge the sudo audit trail to hide the fact. You'd never know about the change until there was an emergency and you needed to open the sealed envelope... Or that they didn't install a rootkit, and never touched root's password at all. Remember, the real trust issues here are on a human level. All the technological stuff is layered on top of that. If you don't trust someone who had root at any point in time, then you cannot trust any of the systems they ever touched. Unfortunately, I don't have a single, wrap it all up, solution. Fundamentally, it's a people-problem, not a computer-problem. [SNIP!] => chuck => Mark ----- Mark Bergman Biker, Rock Climber, Unix mechanic, IATSE #1 Stagehand http://wwwkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=bergman%40merctech.com I want a newsgroup with a infinite S/N ratio! Now taking CFV on: rec.motorcycles.stagehands.pet-bird-owners.pinballers.unix-supporters 5+ So Far--Want to join? Check out: http://www.panix.com/~bergman From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 20 02:23:59 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1KALIU20336 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:21:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailix.lufthansa.com (Pero@mailix.lufthansa.com [53.122.232.130]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1KALGK20332 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from alex.lhe-support.com (alex.lhe-support.com [192.168.99.78]) by mailix.lufthansa.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83DFB802E; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:21:07 +0100 (CET) Received: (from alex@localhost) by alex.lhe-support.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id g1KAL6w30918; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:21:06 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: alex.lh-ecommerce.de: alex set sender to alex@2e-systems.com using -f Subject: RE: [dc-sage] RE: [SAGE] root best practices From: Aleksandar Ivanisevic To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: dc-sage@dc-sage.org In-Reply-To: <001001c1b965$f80f43f0$321514ac@wagon> References: <001001c1b965$f80f43f0$321514ac@wagon> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0.2 Date: 20 Feb 2002 11:21:06 +0100 Message-Id: <1014200466.29806.37.camel@alex> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This is all a question of responsibility. By that I mean real responsibility, not the feeling you might or might not have. What happens to the holder of the root password when a machine goes down or gets screwed in any way? Whoever has the full root access has the responsibility for the operation of the machine in question. Always make sure that this is absolutely clear, put it in writing if possible, and then show it to the dumb middle manager who yells at you when a machine goes down after he insisted that you give the root password to whoever. On Tue, 2002-02-19 at 17:53, Jerald Sheets wrote: > I've seen this reference a couple of times, so I'll clarify: > > I've given root access to no one. Instead, I've had to stay late and > such to do software installs *as* root because I refuse to give them > root. We come in early, leave late for such situations (and even some > weekend work). Point is, I refuse to give root, and as a result it > keeps me here. Just getting a general survey of what all you folk do, > to compile into a listing of emails (names removed/changed to protect > the guilty) to present to management. I've already got the password > traces (including the CEO's personal password, thank you very much) and > am just compiling a hard-hitting enough security meeting to slam-dunk > this issue. > > --JMS > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-dc-sage@dc-sage.org [mailto:owner-dc-sage@dc-sage.org] On > Behalf Of kweschle@csc.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 9:46 AM > To: dc-sage@dc-sage.org > Cc: sage-members@usenix.org > Subject: [dc-sage] RE: [SAGE] root best practices > > I had a couple experiences that should be thought about when giving root > access to everyone: From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 20 02:59:21 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1KAv1i20532 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from paladin.globnix.org (paladin.globnix.org [195.11.247.40]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1KAuxK20528 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:57:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by paladin.globnix.org with local id 16dUQj-0000T1-00 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:56:57 +0000 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:56:57 +0100 From: Phil Pennock To: SAGE members Subject: Re: [SAGE] SOAP and or secure file transfer methods? Message-ID: <20020220115657.A30939@globnix.org> Mail-Followup-To: SAGE members References: <20011220195642.D562@idefix.rtfs.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011220195642.D562@idefix.rtfs.de>; from gabe@rtfs.de on Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 07:56:42PM +0100 X-Disclaimer: Any views expressed in this message, where not explicitly attributed otherwise, are mine and mine alone. Such views do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 2001-12-20 at 19:56 +0100, Gabriel Krabbe wrote: [ Yes, that's a long time ago. Holidays and the board fiasco meant that there was a bunch of mails which I hadn't read; catching up, and seeing that this was not addressed ] [ secure file distribution ... ] > > Or, SOAP over something else like SSH > > > > Finally, my question: what are the security issues with SOAP? Got any > > pointers? Any gotchas? > > > > Anybody know any pointers to "secure FTP" that has a callable interface, is > > multi platform, open-source or cheap? > > Erm, what's wrong with scp from ssh? Define "scp"? If you mean "scp from SSH.com, over SSHv2 protocol", then it's okay, but perhaps better to just say SFTP/SSH. If you mean SSH.com's SSHv1 scp, or the scp from OpenSSH, then the answer to your question becomes "lots". That scp is the rcp protocol, run over an SSH transport. There are some fairly serious issues in the rcp protocol. For instance, new-line termination of filenames. A lot of scp clients don't even check for the presense of a newline before shoving out the filename. So a maliciously constructed filename can end up over-writing arbitrary files (within limits of filesystem permissions, of course). So if you're using something like RSAAuthentication with a restricted key, congratulations -- someone's just over-written your restrictions. sftp is a fairly nice protocol. See "draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-02.txt" from your friendly Internic mirror. But then you need a good client. rsync-over-ssh is there, it works, it's nice, etc. Still subject to the same issues as any system used for remote data exchange -- implementation bugs leading to security holes. At least, by replying this late, I have the advantage of knowing about the recent attacks ;^) Ensure you're using v2.5.2. -- The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. -- Tacitus, 56-120 CE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 20 08:14:57 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1KGDd422254 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:13:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from blues.hodgsonhouse.com (IDENT:postfix@blues.hodgsonhouse.com [24.72.10.211]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1KGDcK22250 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by blues.hodgsonhouse.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id B5BA47F5D0; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:11:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:11:53 -0600 From: Tillman Hodgson To: SAGE members Subject: Re: [SAGE] SOAP and or secure file transfer methods? Message-ID: <20020220101153.B3418@hodgsonhouse.com> References: <20011220195642.D562@idefix.rtfs.de> <20020220115657.A30939@globnix.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020220115657.A30939@globnix.org>; from Phil.Pennock@globnix.org on Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 11:56:57AM +0100 X-Editor: Vim Rocks! http://www.vim.org X-Mailer: Mutt Rocks! http://www.mutt.org X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 11:56:57AM +0100, Phil Pennock wrote: > If you mean SSH.com's SSHv1 scp, or the scp from OpenSSH, then the > answer to your question becomes "lots". > > That scp is the rcp protocol, run over an SSH transport. There are some > fairly serious issues in the rcp protocol. For instance, new-line > termination of filenames. A lot of scp clients don't even check for the > presense of a newline before shoving out the filename. So a maliciously > constructed filename can end up over-writing arbitrary files (within > limits of filesystem permissions, of course). The scp from OpenSSH has this bit of code: if (strchr(name, '\n') != NULL) { run_err("%s: skipping, filename contains a newline", name); goto next; } Are there additional problems that aren't covered by this? I'm interested because I use scp from OpenSSH in quite a few locations and these are serious problems that you mention. - Tillman -- Write clearly - don't be too clever. - The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan & Plaugher) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 20 08:15:29 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1KGFQd22287 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:15:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from grover.snew.com (grover.snew.com [206.136.66.62]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1KGFIK22277 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified FAIL) for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:15:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from grover.snew.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grover.snew.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1KGFEss030513 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:15:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by grover.snew.com (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1KGFEWr030512; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:15:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:15:13 -0800 From: Chuck Yerkes To: bergman@merctech.com Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] root best practices Message-ID: <20020220081513.A26585@snew.com> References: <20020219161646.B24029@snew.com> <000201c1b943$c10b3890$0a00a8c0@ranch> <20020219161646.B24029@snew.com> <12677.1014196658@piquin> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <12677.1014196658@piquin>; from bergman@merctech.com on Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 10:17:38AM +0100 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Quoting bergman@merctech.com (bergman@merctech.com): > => Everyone who needs access gets sudo access. > => Generally, if there are a couple admins, they get full access > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > => and we are in close contact. For developer types who "need" > => root for their desktops, they get access to the commands they > => need. I get an audit trail. > [SNIP!] > > => > => When an admin leaves, is transferred, whatever, I remove THEIR account. > => Since nobody knows the root password, I don't have to run around and > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > => change 40 passwords. > > Basic logical inconsistency here: > > If the admin had full sudo access, you have no way to know > that they didn't change the root password and simply munge the sudo > audit trail to hide the fact. You'd never know about the change until > there was an emergency and you needed to open the sealed envelope... > Or that they didn't install a rootkit, and never touched root's > password at all. Well, yes. But the work around for that is that machines must be rebuilt after any admin leaves. And yes, when I give out root access, I'm giving them a copy of the keys to the store. There is a trust issue (there is also tripwire and friends, but trust is the key here). This is part of why root is not casually given and is only given to those whose job is to be an admin. If a user/developer has root on her desktop, it's less critical - desktops are re-imaged when someone leaves and also just generally as upgrades (jumpstart/kickstart /athena-type rebuild periodically is a Good Thing). The envelope o' root meets the needs of managers who insist that they have root access. It meets my needs of being sure that they aren't messing with it (I've had owners who were ex-programmers and believed that they were system admins - fixing the same problem a couple days in a row sucks). > Remember, the real trust issues here are on a human level. All the > technological stuff is layered on top of that. If you don't trust someone who > had root at any point in time, then you cannot trust any of the systems they > ever touched. Well, we can/do rebuild. For the very paranoid, a boot CD that does integrity checking might be enough, or just re-imaging the damn machine every once in a while and checking out (cvs or sup or cf-engine) the local changes. But that gets into the interesting topic of host management. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 20 13:16:33 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1KL8O126485 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:08:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from spirit.com (gateway.spirit.com [206.165.206.213]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1KL8MK26481 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:08:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:08:17 -0700 (MST) From: Rik Farrow Message-Id: <200202202108.g1KL8HF06410@bear.spirit.com> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] root best practices X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The concept of "Root Best Practices" strikes me as a good topic for a SAGE booklet. It certainly has raised the level of discussion on this list. Issues like those that showed up in sage-members: * multiple root accounts * sharing root passwords * storing of written passwords * use of su * use of sudo * use of Kerberos (ksu) * use (non-use) of telnet, ftp, etc. * ssh and .ssh/authorized_keys Anyone who would like to send in a proposal for root best practices should put together a brief outline as well as a short description of how your sysadmin experience makes you qualified to write about root best practices, and send it to sagebooklets@usenix.org SAGE does pay an honorarium for both starting and completing booklets. A typical booket is at least 20 pages long, but can be much longer (current average is about 40 pages). We are always on the lookout for subjects relevant to SAGE members. Rik Farrow From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 20 16:00:54 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1KNuIq08554 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:56:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfw-gate3.raytheon.com (dfw-gate3.raytheon.com [199.46.199.232]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1KNuFK08532 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:56:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ds02w01.directory.ray.com (ds02w01.directory.ray.com [147.25.154.117]) by dfw-gate3.raytheon.com (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id g1KNu9l28200 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:56:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from ds02w01.directory.ray.com (root@localhost) by ds02w01.directory.ray.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g1KNu7C6028109 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:56:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com (seasnake.RSC.RAYTHEON.COM [147.17.205.60]) by ds02w01.directory.ray.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g1KNu5rE028103 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:56:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from seasnake (seasnake [147.17.205.60]) by seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA01264 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:56:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200202202356.PAA01264@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:56:04 -0800 (PST) From: Mario Obejas Reply-To: Mario Obejas Subject: [SAGE] ssh2 supporting ssh To: sage-members@usenix.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: Uj2vMu+fEBigx5AhWGgzfQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4.2 SunOS 5.8 sun4u sparc X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We're tightening the access door more here. We're getting rid of unencrypted samba, NIS, etc. One step is to provide universal ssh capability. I'd like to use the openssh.org originating ssh for my *nix boxen. I also have a need to provide ssh access (i.e., sftp) to Macs and Win2k/NT hosts. The only A list requirement is that it support ssh2. The ssh server will be *nix machines, everybody is a client. I'd prefer an opensource solution all the way around. COmmercial clients lower the probability of widespread distribution. So far, looks like this is is the plan: 1. Unix: a. Linux use ssh bundled in the RedHat, Debian, etc. distros b. Solaris, HP-UX: compile openssl/openssh 2. MacOSX: use the bundled ssh client at the terminal window. 3. Windows: The big question mark. here's the candidate http://www.networksimplicity.com/openssh/ Everything looks good until you get to the CYA statement: "If you need to give access to your computer to clients/students/non-trusted folk, get a commercial package" I'm obviously not the first sysadmin to go down this path. Can someone please comment on the plan? What's everybody else using to provide ssh client access to a large employee population to get to a *Nix ssh server, particularly for Win2K/NT clients? TIA, Mario Obejas Engineering Automation & Computing Raytheon Electronic Systems 310-334-7201 (Voice) 310-366-4867 (Pager) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 20 17:45:09 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1L1fE708908 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:41:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.asicint.com (root@postal.asicint.com [205.218.106.10]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1L1fCK08904 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:41:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.asicint.com (kcr@postal.asicint.com [127.0.0.1]) by postal.asicint.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1L1eavj002531 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:40:36 -0500 Received: (from kcr@localhost) by postal.asicint.com (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1L1eaj5002530 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:40:36 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:40:36 -0500 From: Kurt Robinson To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars Message-ID: <20020220204036.A2490@postal.asicint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Don't get me wrong, I think usenix' elearning seminars are a great idea. But whats with requiring a Windows computer to participate? http://www.usenix.org/elearning/#whatyouneed Seems a bit limiting, doesn't it? -Kurt Robinson kcr@asicint.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 20 18:59:58 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1L2tlk00816 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from neuromancer.mbarr.net (postfix@66-108-143-133.nyc.rr.com [66.108.143.133]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1L2tjK00794 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:55:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by neuromancer.mbarr.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08E3D2D27E5; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:55:41 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1331 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:55:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssh2 supporting ssh From: Matthew Barr To: Mario Obejas , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200202202356.PAA01264@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > 2. MacOSX: use the bundled ssh client at the terminal window. As it happens, that ssh is also openssl & openssh. It includes a server, w/o any issues. It's 3.0.2p1 as of yesterday. The update for OS X to 10.1.3 includes : * Login authentication support for LDAP and Active Directory services * OpenSSH version 3.0.2p1 * WebDAV support for Digest authentication * Mail includes support for SSL encryption Just have your Mac clients download the update through software update. People also seem to be seeing some increase in speed, but that's just rumor, with no benchmarks. The OS X systems are the equal of any linux or solaris box these days :-) matthew _______________________________________________________________________ Matthew Barr mailto:mbarr@mbarr.net AIM: MBarr1244 ICQ: 22130424 Hm: (212) 961-1083 M:(646) 765-6878 PGP Key Fingerprint = 35DC DC87 4F38 2E80 F327 2B50 FD82 A2CB CB80 80F3 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 20 19:51:40 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1L3mFx11977 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:48:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from bunrab.catwhisker.org (adsl-63-193-123-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.123.122]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1L3m7K11893 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:48:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from david@localhost) by bunrab.catwhisker.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1L3m6Q70918; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:48:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:48:06 -0800 (PST) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <200202210348.g1L3m6Q70918@bunrab.catwhisker.org> To: kcr@asicint.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars In-Reply-To: <20020220204036.A2490@postal.asicint.com> X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:40:36 -0500 >From: Kurt Robinson >Don't get me wrong, I think usenix' elearning seminars >are a great idea. But whats with requiring a Windows >computer to participate? >http://www.usenix.org/elearning/#whatyouneed I don't suppose that "To participate in these tutorials you will need a PC running Windows." would include a FreeBSD box running the XFree86-4 implementation of the X Window System.... :-( >Seems a bit limiting, doesn't it? That's an exceptionally charitable way to put it. Guess I don't need to spend any more of my time on that.... Cheers, david (links to my resume at http://www.catwhisker.org/~david) -- David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org I believe it would be irresponsible (and thus, unethical) for me to advise, recommend, or support the use of any product that is or depends on any Microsoft product for any purpose other than personal amusement. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 20 20:47:40 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1L4hrS21027 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:43:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1L4hpK21014 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:43:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from user-38ldkj7.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.210.103] helo=athalon) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16dl58-00011w-00; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:43:46 -0800 Message-ID: <009201c1ba9b$9b26e800$0a00000a@athalon> From: "Dean Garner" To: , "Chuck Yerkes" Cc: References: <20020219161646.B24029@snew.com> <000201c1b943$c10b3890$0a00a8c0@ranch> <12677.1014196658@piquin> Subject: Re: [SAGE] root best practices Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:50:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk One option to consider is a commercial based product called Powerbroker from Symark. It has complete auditing, including keystroke capture (which can be played back at a later time for auditing and even training purposes). The configuration and control of the Powerbroker is centrally located on the Powerbroker server, and you can limit who has access to the PB server (which prevents unapproved messing of the root privileges to those admins who have real root on the PB server). It is kind of like sudo on steroids.... It had alot of handy features, the only drawback was that it was a bit pricey until you had a large number of licenses. Check it out at http://www.symark.com Just a thought.... use your best judgement if it makes sense. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Chuck Yerkes Cc: Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 1:17 AM Subject: Re: [SAGE] root best practices > > > In your message dated: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:16:46 PST, > The pithy ruminations from Chuck Yerkes on > were: > => Quoting Matt Studley (mjs@ams.org): > => > Whatever you are trying to > => > install could be looking at your actual UID instead of the effective UID. > => > As for the root telnet, that shouldn't be allowed period. You really > => > => I tend to remove telnetd from all of my machines. > => On production machines, I've generated random root passwords, > => written them down put them in envelopes and shoved them in the > => company owner's safe (or a locked drawer, or whatever). > => Now they have the root password for emergencies. I can see if > => the envelope's been opened. > > Reasonable policy. > > => > => Everyone who needs access gets sudo access. > => Generally, if there are a couple admins, they get full access > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > => and we are in close contact. For developer types who "need" > => root for their desktops, they get access to the commands they > => need. I get an audit trail. > => > => ksu (kerberos su) is also acceptable for some forms of access. > > [SNIP!] > > => > => When an admin leaves, is transferred, whatever, I remove THEIR account. > => Since nobody knows the root password, I don't have to run around and > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > => change 40 passwords. > > Basic logical inconsistency here: > > If the admin had full sudo access, you have no way to know > that they didn't change the root password and simply munge the sudo > audit trail to hide the fact. You'd never know about the change until > there was an emergency and you needed to open the sealed envelope... > Or that they didn't install a rootkit, and never touched root's > password at all. > > Remember, the real trust issues here are on a human level. All the > technological stuff is layered on top of that. If you don't trust someone who > had root at any point in time, then you cannot trust any of the systems they > ever touched. > > Unfortunately, I don't have a single, wrap it all up, solution. Fundamentally, > it's a people-problem, not a computer-problem. > > [SNIP!] > > => chuck > => > Mark > > ----- > Mark Bergman Biker, Rock Climber, Unix mechanic, IATSE #1 Stagehand > > http://wwwkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=bergman%40merctech.com > > I want a newsgroup with a infinite S/N ratio! Now taking CFV on: > rec.motorcycles.stagehands.pet-bird-owners.pinballers.unix-supporters > 5+ So Far--Want to join? Check out: http://www.panix.com/~bergman > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 20 21:18:18 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1L5ErT22542 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:14:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from jthome.jthome.com (rrcs-sw-24-242-135-122.biz.rr.com [24.242.135.122]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1L5EnK22538 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:14:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jeff@localhost) by jthome.jthome.com (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g1L5EkA05637; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:14:46 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jeff) From: Jeff Tyler Message-Id: <200202210514.g1L5EkA05637@jthome.jthome.com> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars To: david@catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:14:46 -0600 (CST) Cc: kcr@asicint.com, sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: from "David Wolfskill" at Feb 20, 2002 07:48:06 PM Organization: Collective Technologies Phone: (512)-263-5500 Reply-To: jeff@colltech.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL5] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I think we're whining a bit here folks. There is a rather large and detailed disclaimer right on the bottom of the page to the effect that Usenix has been unable to find appropriate software that runs under Unix or other open systems platform to date. Gotta live in the real world, Windows won the desktop war, remember ? JT (posting from an Xterm off a FreeBSD server using Elm ;-) "David Wolfskill says:" > > >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:40:36 -0500 > >From: Kurt Robinson > > >Don't get me wrong, I think usenix' elearning seminars > >are a great idea. But whats with requiring a Windows > >computer to participate? > >http://www.usenix.org/elearning/#whatyouneed > > I don't suppose that "To participate in these tutorials you will need a > PC running Windows." would include a FreeBSD box running the XFree86-4 > implementation of the X Window System.... :-( > > >Seems a bit limiting, doesn't it? > > That's an exceptionally charitable way to put it. > > Guess I don't need to spend any more of my time on that.... > > Cheers, > david (links to my resume at http://www.catwhisker.org/~david) > -- > David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org > I believe it would be irresponsible (and thus, unethical) for me to advise, > recommend, or support the use of any product that is or depends on any > Microsoft product for any purpose other than personal amusement. > > -- ========================================================================= |Jeffrey S. Tyler Office 512-263-5500 | |Collective Technologies Cell/Pager 512-699-8225 | ========================================================================= From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 20 23:57:09 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1L7oGL23965 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:50:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from iggy.fringehead.org (drteeth@iggy.fringehead.org [209.151.228.210]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g1L7oEK23961 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:50:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 4811 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2002 07:50:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pip.office.fringehead.org) (192.168.100.7) by iggy.fringehead.org with SMTP; 21 Feb 2002 07:50:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 3730 invoked by uid 1000); 21 Feb 2002 07:50:13 -0000 From: "Conrad Heiney" Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:50:13 -0800 To: jeff@colltech.com Cc: David Wolfskill , kcr@asicint.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars Message-ID: <20020221075013.GA3709@pip> References: <200202210514.g1L5EkA05637@jthome.jthome.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200202210514.g1L5EkA05637@jthome.jthome.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable try http://www.blackboard.com/ :) On Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 11:14:46PM -0600, Jeff Tyler wrote: > From: Jeff Tyler > Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars > To: david@catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) > Cc: kcr@asicint.com, sage-members@usenix.org > Organization: Collective Technologies > Phone: (512)-263-5500 > Reply-To: jeff@colltech.com > X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=3D1 Fuz1=3D1 Fuz2=3D1 >=20 > I think we're whining a bit here folks. There is a rather large and > detailed disclaimer right on the bottom of the page to the effect that > Usenix has been unable to find appropriate software that runs under Unix = or > other open systems platform to date. Gotta live in the real world, Windo= ws > won the desktop war, remember ? >=20 > JT (posting from an Xterm off a FreeBSD server using Elm ;-) >=20 >=20 > "David Wolfskill says:" > >=20 > > >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:40:36 -0500 > > >From: Kurt Robinson > >=20 > > >Don't get me wrong, I think usenix' elearning seminars > > >are a great idea. But whats with requiring a Windows > > >computer to participate? > > >http://www.usenix.org/elearning/#whatyouneed > >=20 > > I don't suppose that "To participate in these tutorials you will need a > > PC running Windows." would include a FreeBSD box running the XFree86-4 > > implementation of the X Window System.... :-( > >=20 > > >Seems a bit limiting, doesn't it? > >=20 > > That's an exceptionally charitable way to put it. > >=20 > > Guess I don't need to spend any more of my time on that.... > >=20 > > Cheers, > > david (links to my resume at http://www.catwhisker.org/~david) > > --=20 > > David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org > > I believe it would be irresponsible (and thus, unethical) for me to adv= ise, > > recommend, or support the use of any product that is or depends on any > > Microsoft product for any purpose other than personal amusement. > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > |Jeffrey S. Tyler Office 512-263-5500 | > |Collective Technologies Cell/Pager 512-699-8225 | > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --=20 Conrad Heiney conrad@fringehead.org http://fringehead.org ---------- HELLO KITTY gang terrorizes town, family STICKERED to death! --tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjx0prUACgkQyVm6VkRf/dTLCgCfZ8JgC5VI0JGS97SXzt+AoiYD WPsAn0THP4RaxcW5xfK6+o9U0YRtL+VN =Whmd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 00:16:37 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1L8D2s24114 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 00:13:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ece.cmu.edu (ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.136.200]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1L8D0K24110 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 00:13:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from pyanfar.ece.cmu.edu (allbery@VPN97.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.138.97]) (authenticated) by ece.cmu.edu (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g1L8Cpj29561; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 03:12:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars From: "Brandon S. Allbery "KF8NH To: David Wolfskill Cc: kcr@asicint.com, sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <200202210348.g1L3m6Q70918@bunrab.catwhisker.org> References: <200202210348.g1L3m6Q70918@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0.2 Date: 21 Feb 2002 03:12:47 -0500 Message-Id: <1014279172.77845.1.camel@pyanfar.ece.cmu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2002-02-20 at 22:48, David Wolfskill wrote: > I don't suppose that "To participate in these tutorials you will need a > PC running Windows." would include a FreeBSD box running the XFree86-4 > implementation of the X Window System.... :-( There's always "portinstall vmware2"... > >Seems a bit limiting, doesn't it? More annoying than limiting, from my POV. -- brandon s. allbery [os/2][linux][solaris][japh] allbery@kf8nh.apk.net system administrator [WAY too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering KF8NH carnegie mellon university ["better check the oblivious first" -ke6sls] From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 00:46:59 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1L8hRr25467 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 00:43:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from pop.snert.net (mail.snert.net [195.5.195.101]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1L8hLK25181 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 00:43:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from snert.com ([193.41.72.235]) by pop.snert.net (8.12.2/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g1L8hKqQ028541 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:43:20 +0100 Message-ID: <3C74B322.8020108@snert.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:43:14 +0100 From: Anthony Howe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sage Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssh2 supporting ssh References: <200202202356.PAA01264@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk For Windows I recommend SecureCRT and SecureFX from http://www.vandyke.com/ They are commercial, but well worth it. The alternative is installing Cygwin environment for Windows so that people can use the "ssh" commandline client provided with Cygwin (or you can just install the ssh client and the cygwin.dll if you don't want the whole thing). Alternatively compile ssh for Windows using Borland C++ 5.5, the command-line tools are available free from http://www.borland.com/ I've not yet had occasion to try this option. Anthony Howe Mario Obejas wrote: > We're tightening the access door more here. > We're getting rid of unencrypted samba, NIS, etc. > > One step is to provide universal ssh capability. > I'd like to use the openssh.org originating ssh for my *nix boxen. > I also have a need to provide ssh access (i.e., sftp) to Macs and > Win2k/NT hosts. > > The only A list requirement is that it support ssh2. > The ssh server will be *nix machines, everybody is a client. > I'd prefer an opensource solution all the way around. > COmmercial clients lower the probability of widespread distribution. > > So far, looks like this is is the plan: > 1. Unix: > a. Linux use ssh bundled in the RedHat, Debian, etc. distros > b. Solaris, HP-UX: compile openssl/openssh > 2. MacOSX: use the bundled ssh client at the terminal window. > 3. Windows: The big question mark. here's the candidate > http://www.networksimplicity.com/openssh/ > Everything looks good until you get to the CYA statement: > "If you need to give access to your computer to > clients/students/non-trusted folk, get a commercial package" > > I'm obviously not the first sysadmin to go down this path. > Can someone please comment on the plan? > What's everybody else using to provide ssh client access to a large > employee population to get to a *Nix ssh server, particularly for > Win2K/NT clients? > > TIA, > Mario Obejas > Engineering Automation & Computing > Raytheon Electronic Systems > 310-334-7201 (Voice) > 310-366-4867 (Pager) > -- Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus "Microsoft (cough, sputter, spit, !@#$%) ..." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 01:52:15 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1L9pK202683 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 01:51:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from custos2.adm.arcor.net (custos2.arcor-ip.de [145.253.2.52]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1L9pHK02679 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 01:51:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by custos2.adm.arcor.net ( ARCOR.5.02) id KAA14050; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:51:00 +0100 Received: from UNKNOWN(172.24.94.166), claiming to be "mail.aschemann.net" via SMTP (2.0.003) by custos2, id smtpdzSpVMa; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:50:58 +0100 (MET) Received: (from ascheman@localhost) by mail.aschemann.net (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g1L9onj04111; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:50:49 +0100 Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:50:49 +0100 From: Gerd Aschemann To: Mario Obejas Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssh2 supporting ssh Message-ID: <20020221105049.A3985@lap1.bku.db.de> References: <200202202356.PAA01264@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <200202202356.PAA01264@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 03:56:04PM -0800, Mario Obejas wrote: > What's everybody else using to provide ssh client access to a large > employee population to get to a *Nix ssh server, particularly for > Win2K/NT clients? cygwin includes openssh ... -- Gerd Aschemann --- Veröffentlichen heißt Verändern (Carmen Thomas) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 03:43:32 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1LBecf03367 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 03:40:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from warlock.qualcomm.com (warlock.qualcomm.com [129.46.64.204]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1LBeNK03363 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 03:40:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from avalon.qualcomm.com (avalon.qualcomm.com [203.30.171.11]) by warlock.qualcomm.com (8.12.1/8.9.3/8.9) with ESMTP id g1LBeH79005984; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 03:40:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAVAJO.qualcomm.com by avalon.qualcomm.com (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id WAA00703; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:39:58 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20020221223243.03a6ab98@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: ggr2@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:34:30 +1100 To: Anthony Howe From: Greg Rose Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssh2 supporting ssh Cc: Sage In-Reply-To: <3C74B322.8020108@snert.com> References: <200202202356.PAA01264@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk What's wrong with buying the SSH2 client from F-Secure? It's cheap, it works well, and you're funneling money back to the people who performed the original service... Anyway, that's what I have done, a couple of times now. Your mileage might vary. Greg. At 09:43 AM 2/21/2002 +0100, Anthony Howe wrote: >For Windows I recommend SecureCRT and SecureFX from >http://www.vandyke.com/ They are commercial, but well worth it. > >The alternative is installing Cygwin environment for Windows so that >people can use the "ssh" commandline client provided with Cygwin (or you >can just install the ssh client and the cygwin.dll if you don't want the >whole thing). > >Alternatively compile ssh for Windows using Borland C++ 5.5, the >command-line tools are available free from http://www.borland.com/ I've >not yet had occasion to try this option. > >Anthony Howe > >Mario Obejas wrote: > >>We're tightening the access door more here. >>We're getting rid of unencrypted samba, NIS, etc. >>One step is to provide universal ssh capability. >>I'd like to use the openssh.org originating ssh for my *nix boxen. >>I also have a need to provide ssh access (i.e., sftp) to Macs and >>Win2k/NT hosts. >>The only A list requirement is that it support ssh2. >>The ssh server will be *nix machines, everybody is a client. >>I'd prefer an opensource solution all the way around. >>COmmercial clients lower the probability of widespread distribution. >>So far, looks like this is is the plan: >>1. Unix: a. Linux use ssh bundled in the RedHat, Debian, etc. distros >> b. Solaris, HP-UX: compile openssl/openssh >>2. MacOSX: use the bundled ssh client at the terminal window. >>3. Windows: The big question mark. here's the candidate >> http://www.networksimplicity.com/openssh/ >> Everything looks good until you get to the CYA statement: "If you >> need to give access to your computer to >> clients/students/non-trusted folk, get a commercial package" >> >>I'm obviously not the first sysadmin to go down this path. >>Can someone please comment on the plan? >>What's everybody else using to provide ssh client access to a large >>employee population to get to a *Nix ssh server, particularly for >>Win2K/NT clients? >>TIA, >>Mario Obejas >>Engineering Automation & Computing >>Raytheon Electronic Systems >>310-334-7201 (Voice) >>310-366-4867 (Pager) > > >-- >Anthony C Howe +33 6 11 89 73 78 >http://www.snert.com/ ICQ: 7116561 AIM: Sir Wumpus >"Microsoft (cough, sputter, spit, !@#$%) ..." > Greg Rose INTERNET: ggr@qualcomm.com Qualcomm Australia VOICE: +61-2-9817 4188 FAX: +61-2-9817 5199 Level 3, 230 Victoria Road, http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ Gladesville NSW 2111 232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 03:47:22 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1LBjDS03404 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 03:45:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from trinity.fluff.org (mail@trinity.fluff.org [194.153.168.225]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1LBjBK03400 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 03:45:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ajr by trinity.fluff.org with local (Exim 3.12) id 16dreq-0003ea-00 for sage-members@usenix.org ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:45:04 +0000 Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:45:04 +0000 From: Ade Rixon To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssh2 supporting ssh Message-ID: <20020221114504.B620@trinity.fluff.org> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <200202202356.PAA01264@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200202202356.PAA01264@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com>; from obejas@phylum.rsc.raytheon.com on Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 03:56:04PM -0800 X-Home-Page: http://www.big-bubbles.home.dhs.org/ X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk 20 Feb 03:56:04 PM: Meanwhile in the Sheraton, Mario Obejas wrote: > I also have a need to provide ssh access (i.e., sftp) to Macs and > Win2k/NT hosts. >-- End of excerpt from Mario Obejas PuTTY: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/ It's the biz. Ade_ / From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 05:17:03 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1LD9mf03800 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 05:09:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls2.std.com [199.172.62.104]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1LD9lK03796 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 05:09:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell.TheWorld.com (root@shell01.TheWorld.com [199.172.62.241]) by TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA09376 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:09:46 -0500 Received: (from adamm@localhost) by shell.TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA390732 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:09:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202211309.IAA390732@shell.TheWorld.com> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars To: sage-members@usenix.org (SAGE Members) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:09:45 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <20020221075013.GA3709@pip> from "Conrad Heiney" at Feb 20, 2002 11:50:13 PM From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk "Conrad Heiney" wrote: > try http://www.blackboard.com/ Blackboard currently offers NO courses in any flavor of Unix, NO C courses (although they do have C++ and Java), one CCNA course, and a whopping three networking courses that do not appear to be MS- specific (but I can't tell anything more because there's no course description beyond the titles). Sure, Blackboard's software looks cool, but without the materials to go with it, it's not very useful to USENIX (as a service to members). AdamM From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 05:51:32 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1LDisu04053 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 05:44:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from starfury.execpc.com (d45.as27.nwbl1.wi.voyager.net [169.207.115.45]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1LDiqK04049 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 05:44:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (alcourt@localhost) by starfury.execpc.com (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g1LDkHs10283; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:46:17 -0600 Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:46:08 -0600 (CST) From: "Mr. Alcourt" To: Anthony Howe cc: Sage Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssh2 supporting ssh In-Reply-To: <3C74B322.8020108@snert.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Anthony Howe wrote: > For Windows I recommend SecureCRT and SecureFX from > http://www.vandyke.com/ They are commercial, but well worth it. [snip] In my environment, we have been rolling out ssh in a fairly broad basis and have been using 3 (yes 3) different clients, depending on the needs of the user and their individual preference. PuTTY (Free, now supports X11 forwarding and SSH proto 2 RSA & DSA keys) SecureCRT (Commercial, see above). Humingbird eXceed with Security add on pack. The third product was most useful for people who for one reason or another had to have Hummingbird's eXceed product anyway on their system. I personally use PuTTY for when I'm forced to use NT, and reccomend it for most of my users in order to control costs (a factor when trying to convert users in my environment). SecureCRT was the preexisting norm that a lot of the older users who already used ssh were using. Hummingbird's product is quite new, so it is not as thoroughly field tested as the other two packages in use where I work. Note, the above 3 products I listed are not servers, only clients. I have found that I can limit my need to support the different clients by indicating to users who use a commercial client that they need to rely on the vendor for any technical support beyond site specific configuration notes (and then, I don't tell them how to set the configuration, just what options will be helpful to make things work smoother.) - -- Mr. Alcourt http://www.execpc.com/~alcourt/ "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.75-6 iQCVAwUBPHT6KNHXH7Z+KmdxAQFrgAP/TMS45iychuPIHX5xrZLm5aaV63s4hUGw 4r0fZ/BlJ685Y/cOaNwcO3pnxZfF15FXj2kvxce9E9EnzHg/x4uMOgm5fyOi/Rhx FolDLDXMaZlSidJ9VoRty8VytifiIAcxz9FqARPyvsc38DvzWEzreFUeu2CSdUJT DWJBvgjCFnA= =0C7B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 07:34:45 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1LFRJ204788 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:27:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from renown.cnchost.com (renown.concentric.net [207.155.248.7]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1LFRIK04784 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:27:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from deaddrop.org (ws1.gray.xo.com [206.111.213.146] (may be forged)) by renown.cnchost.com id KAA22577; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:27:17 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-ID: <3C75117B.64DE1CE7@deaddrop.org> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:25:47 -0800 From: Etaoin Shrdlu Organization: From order, chaos. Entropy rules. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; OpenBSD 2.6 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssh2 supporting ssh References: <200202202356.PAA01264@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Mario Obejas wrote: > > We're tightening the access door more here. > We're getting rid of unencrypted samba, NIS, etc. I'd be interested to know what you're doing instead of NIS (ldap?). > One step is to provide universal ssh capability. > I'd like to use the openssh.org originating ssh for my *nix boxen. > I also have a need to provide ssh access (i.e., sftp) to Macs and > Win2k/NT hosts. An issue you don't mention here is cost. > The only A list requirement is that it support ssh2. > The ssh server will be *nix machines, everybody is a client. > I'd prefer an opensource solution all the way around. I expect that you are saying cost is a driving force here, since ease of use and functionality for the windows client is going to be about the same. > Commercial clients lower the probability of widespread distribution. > > So far, looks like this is is the plan: > 1. Unix: > a. Linux use ssh bundled in the RedHat, Debian, etc. distros Sure, but make certain that it's the latest version. Set up a central config so that all machines refuse ssh1 connections (my own preferred default), and enforce any other rules you might want to declare as sensible. > b. Solaris, HP-UX: compile openssl/openssh See above for configuration. Understand that commercial unixen are behind the curve on randomness, and so are best not used as samba/ssh2 servers (unless you are very cautious). > 2. MacOSX: use the bundled ssh client at the terminal window. The latest release (10.1.3) includes an update for openssh, as well as other security features. > 3. Windows I recommend against your initial candidate, preferring either Greg Rose's suggestion of F-Secure, or if money is really an issue, then using the latest version of PuTTY. Personally, I love PuTTY as a client, and recommend it over any other open source version. > I'm obviously not the first sysadmin to go down this path. > Can someone please comment on the plan? > What's everybody else using to provide ssh client access to a large > employee population to get to a *Nix ssh server, particularly for > Win2K/NT clients? I applaud the quick responses you've received to this quest, and your desire to support a modern, secure network environment. I'd like to remind the people who made suggestions concerning cygwin and others for window platforms that the result is that you are asking for at least one of the following with that solution: o either the admin staff provides a lot of extra support o your users are knowledgeable enough to use it in this environment o you are in a situation where the extra overhead of cygwin is not an issue I know that the cygwin suggestions were made in the best of faith, but I think that (sometimes) we forget that adding an extra, unfamiliar burden to the user is not truly conducive to adopting clean security. I have even trained (gasp!) managers to use F-Secure or PuTTY. I can't picture them having any patience with a statement that was something like "I'm going to install this unix-like environment on your windows machine so that you can use ssh to do your work." Nope. -- No enterprise is more likely to succeed than one concealed from the enemy until it is ripe for execution. Niccolo Machiavelli From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 07:34:45 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1LFREV04782 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:27:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1LFRDH04777 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:27:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from miyuki.cast-info.es (miyuki.cast-info.es [217.70.2.134]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1L8IOK24150 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 00:18:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from virusapp.cast-info.es (virusapp.cast-info.es [217.70.2.152]) by miyuki.cast-info.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF901327F6 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:18:17 +0100 (CET) Received: by virusapp.cast-info.es (Postfix, from userid 0) id E513018AC9; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:29:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from cast-info.es (virusapp [127.0.0.1]) by virusapp.cast-info.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B7C246CB for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:29:23 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3C74ACBF.F171F038@cast-info.es> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:15:59 +0100 From: Joel Pinckheard Organization: Cast Info X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [es] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Powerbroker (was root best practices) References: <20020219161646.B24029@snew.com> <000201c1b943$c10b3890$0a00a8c0@ranch> <12677.1014196658@piquin> <009201c1ba9b$9b26e800$0a00000a@athalon> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Dean Garner escribió: --snip stuff on PowerBroker-- In my last job this was used (not on the machines I administered - we used sudo) and I remember having a major problem using it out of cron for some scripts that needed to run commands as a priviliged user (i.e. trying to use it like "no password" option in sudo). It *wants* to be attached to a terminal, attempts to fool it with expect etc. didn't work. We ended up running the whole script under the other userid - making code changes a real pain... Of course for you this may or may not be a bad thing. Also we were told that it doesn't support the idea of giving a unix group access, only individual accounts. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 08:23:23 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1LGINc05097 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:18:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from wally.eecs.harvard.edu (wally.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.30]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1LGIMK05093 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:18:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (trey@localhost) by wally.eecs.harvard.edu (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id g1LGI9S31314; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:18:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:18:07 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris To: Ade Rixon cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssh2 supporting ssh In-Reply-To: <20020221114504.B620@trinity.fluff.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Even better, go to Google, type "putty" and press "I'm Feeling Lucky." Putty doesn't have an installer script, either--it's just a bare Win32 executable--so if you find yourself at an Internet cafe or on your mother's computer and need to SSH really quickly, you can have a good client running only five keystrokes and three mouse clicks later. Nifty. Incidentally, the PuTTY page also offers pscp, which is a nice, simple, Win32 command-line reimplementation of scp. It's saved me innumerable times. (E.g., when I'm on that Internet cafe machine reading my email with pine via putty, and I need to look at an attachment....) (Insert standard warnings about keystroke loggers and using unfamiliar machines here....) In a message dated Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Ade Rixon writes: > 20 Feb 03:56:04 PM: Meanwhile in the Sheraton, Mario Obejas wrote: > > I also have a need to provide ssh access (i.e., sftp) to Macs and > > Win2k/NT hosts. > >-- End of excerpt from Mario Obejas > > PuTTY: > http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/ > > It's the biz. > > Ade_ > / > -- Trey Harris Secretary and Executive SAGE -- The System Administrators Guild (www.sage.org) Opinions above are not necessarily those of SAGE. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 10:35:00 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1LITq906723 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:29:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.106.3.41] (tuvix.usenix.org [131.106.3.41]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1LITpK06719 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:29:51 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: jel@mail.usenix.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020220204036.A2490@postal.asicint.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:29:51 -0800 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Jane-Ellen Long Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Please be assured that the USENIX Board and staff mean every word of the "Note on the Centra Technology" on the elearning Web page. Every effort is being made to identify or develop software that offers Centra's features and reliability but does not require Windows. We'll check out blackboard.com. If anyone comes across any other software that looks plausible, please let me know. If you do have access to a Windows box, do try a tutorial--the instructors are cream of the USENIX crop, so the content's great, and those who've reported on the experience gave it high praise. Jane-Ellen Long, IS/Production Director, USENIX/SAGE 510 528 8649 x 14 | fax 510 548 5738 http://www.usenix.org http://www.sage.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 11:36:08 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1LJXLY07629 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:33:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1LJXLN07622 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:33:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from rgminet1.oracle.com (rgminet1.oracle.com [148.87.122.30]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1LHeWK06104 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:40:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from rgmgw5.us.oracle.com (rgmgw5.us.oracle.com [138.1.191.14]) by rgminet1.oracle.com (Switch-2.1.4/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1LHhgs08695; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:43:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from oracle.com (dhcp-4op5-4op6-west-144-25-174-87.us.oracle.com [144.25.174.87]) by rgmgw5.us.oracle.com (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1LHeHK26534; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:40:21 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3C7532E7.AB5B5949@oracle.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:48:23 -0800 From: Bill Weils Organization: Oracle Corporation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joel Pinckheard CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Powerbroker (was root best practices) References: <20020219161646.B24029@snew.com> <000201c1b943$c10b3890$0a00a8c0@ranch> <12677.1014196658@piquin> <009201c1ba9b$9b26e800$0a00000a@athalon> <3C74ACBF.F171F038@cast-info.es> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1F94AB5D4A4AACCA2414C708" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1F94AB5D4A4AACCA2414C708 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joel (et al;), PowerBroker can be an effective tool - just like SUDO. Of course, like any tool - it is not meant for every situation. SUDO is about account/access ease and efficiency - without completely giving away the priviledge of 'root'. PowerBroker is very similar, but designed in such a way as to meet a higher and more formally documented standards on both Security Industry and Federal regulatory levels. We have found it to be extremely beneficial in enforcing the idea of "individual accounts" from which we can gain significant accountability to actions taken by individuals. The real rub of PowerBroker is in the design and architecture of the 'profiles' being created and in understanding the impact of every possible option for any given command that you make available under PowerBroker access. This, to meet the Federal (SEC and others) or security industry standards, much more than whether everyone trusts everyone else. I would only recommend PowerBroker for institutions and organizations which need to ensure positive control and accountability over access and activity. Especially when facing a need to comply with external third party Business or Security level audits. Command profiles that are too tight leave people unable to complete key work. Command profiles that are too loose enable people to have greater accessibility than their role might require - which is cause for concern in the security industry, and almost always will result in a lower rating on the audit. Just some thoughts on the topic. Not intending to cause a hail storm of comment from within the community. Thanks. Bill Joel Pinckheard wrote: > Dean Garner escribió: > --snip stuff on PowerBroker-- > > In my last job this was used (not on the machines I > administered - we used sudo) and I remember having > a major problem using it out of cron for some scripts > that needed to run commands as a priviliged user > (i.e. trying to use it like "no password" option in sudo). > > It *wants* to be attached to a terminal, attempts to > fool it with expect etc. didn't work. We ended up > running the whole script under the other userid > - making code changes a real pain... > > Of course for you this may or may not be a bad thing. > > Also we were told that it doesn't support the idea > of giving a unix group access, only individual > accounts. -- ============++++++++============= William Weils, Sr. Dir. Online Services, Engineering Bill.Weils@oracle.com Voice (650) 506-9017 ***************************************************** The comments expressed in this message are solely my own and are in no way intended to represent the interests or concerns of Oracle Corporation. ***************************************************** --------------1F94AB5D4A4AACCA2414C708 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=UTF-8; name="Bill.Weils.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Bill Weils Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Bill.Weils.vcf" begin:vcard n:Weils;Bill tel;cell:408-218-0866 tel;work:650-506-9017 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:www.oracle.com org:Oracle - Global IT;Online Services - Engineering version:2.1 email;internet:Bill.Weils@oracle.com title:Senior Director adr;quoted-printable:;;500 Oracle Parkway=0D=0AM/S 4OP5;Redwood Shores;CA;94065;USA fn:Bill Weils end:vcard --------------1F94AB5D4A4AACCA2414C708-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 11:57:45 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1LJtli07911 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from halfdome.holdit.com (IDENT:merlyn@halfdome.holdit.com [209.102.105.64]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1LJtjK07907; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:55:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from merlyn@localhost) by halfdome.holdit.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA22001; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:55:43 -0800 To: Trey Harris Cc: Ade Rixon , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssh2 supporting ssh References: From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: 21 Feb 2002 11:55:43 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Trey" == Trey Harris writes: Trey> Even better, go to Google, type "putty" and press "I'm Feeling Trey> Lucky." Putty doesn't have an installer script, either--it's Trey> just a bare Win32 executable--so if you find yourself at an Trey> Internet cafe or on your mother's computer and need to SSH Trey> really quickly, you can have a good client running only five Trey> keystrokes and three mouse clicks later. Nifty. I'm on the road 30 weeks a year, and about once every three weeks, "putty" saves my bacon. Especially when you can "run it from current location" even when you can't reach the desktop because of a locked-up environment. The other handy tool is "mindterm", especially the signed "mindterm demo" pages that are out there. ssh in the browser. :) Just type "mindterm signed applet" into google, and pop into any one of a dozen pages. Works unless you have to bend a corner around a web proxy. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 13:27:03 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1LLJUA09009 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:19:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pinchi.noyb.com (250-139.adsl1.netlojix.net [207.71.250.139]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1LLJTK09005 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:19:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from noyb.com (pinchi.noyb.com [207.71.250.139]) by pinchi.noyb.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id g1LLG0U18877 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:16:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3C75638F.FD958E17@noyb.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:15:59 -0800 From: paul company Reply-To: pjc@noyb.com Organization: None Of Your Business (NOYB) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Web broken link checkers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone know of any Unix open source Web broken link checkers? I've found many broken link checkers, but they're either very expensive or the only run on Windows. Thank you, paul From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 14:17:38 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1LMCjq09670 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from chiba.halibut.com (IDENT:rduke@chiba.halibut.com [216.171.136.10]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g1LMCiK09666 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:12:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8790 invoked by uid 10174); 21 Feb 2002 22:12:37 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:12:37 -0800 From: David Carmean To: "Randal L. Schwartz" Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssh2 supporting ssh Message-ID: <20020221141237.S5480@halibut.com> Mail-Followup-To: David Carmean , "Randal L. Schwartz" , sage-members@usenix.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from merlyn@stonehenge.com on Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 11:55:43AM -0800 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 11:55:43AM -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > I'm on the road 30 weeks a year, and about once every three weeks, > "putty" saves my bacon. Especially when you can "run it from current > location" even when you can't reach the desktop because of a locked-up > environment. > > The other handy tool is "mindterm", especially the signed "mindterm > demo" pages that are out there. ssh in the browser. :) Just type > "mindterm signed applet" into google, and pop into any one of a dozen > pages. Works unless you have to bend a corner around a web proxy. I have run into places (several Kinko's, specifically) where their filtering was so tight/stupid that they don't permit outbound calls to port 22. They only permitted telnet, ftp, and port 80/443 HTTP. Yes, I couldn't even connect to userland servers running on port 8080, etc. Hopefully they've changed this, but I had to rely on some friends running sshd on port 80 to do business. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 15:49:44 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1LNk6S10829 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:46:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from exchange.hoovers.com (gamma.hoovers.com [66.179.38.8]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1LNk5K10825 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:46:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoovers-59 (66.179.38.59 [66.179.38.59]) by exchange.hoovers.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id F129B8XX; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:46:34 -0600 Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:46:00 -0600 From: Frank Smith To: pjc@noyb.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Web broken link checkers Message-ID: <519570000.1014335160@hoovers-59> In-Reply-To: <3C75638F.FD958E17@noyb.com> References: <3C75638F.FD958E17@noyb.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.2 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Linklint Frank --On Thursday, February 21, 2002 13:15:59 -0800 paul company wrote: > Does anyone know of any Unix open source Web broken link checkers? > I've found many broken link checkers, but they're either very expensive > or the only run on Windows. > > Thank you, > > paul > > > -- Frank Smith fsmith@hoovers.com Systems Administrator Voice: 512-374-4673 Hoover's Online Fax: 512-374-4501 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 17:03:29 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1M0xco11722 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:59:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1M0xbN11717 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:59:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from bacon.hamjudo.com (63-216-112-83.sdsl.cais.net [63.216.112.83]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1LMfmK10052 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:41:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from bacon.hamjudo.com (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by LOCALHOST (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1LMflY9022925 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:41:47 -0500 Received: from localhost (paulh@localhost) by bacon.hamjudo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1LMfldw022921 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:41:47 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: bacon.hamjudo.com: paulh owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:41:45 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Haas Reply-To: paulh@hamjudo.com To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssh2 supporting ssh In-Reply-To: <20020221141237.S5480@halibut.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, David Carmean wrote: > I have run into places (several Kinko's, specifically) where their > filtering was so tight/stupid that they don't permit outbound calls > to port 22. They only permitted telnet, ftp, and port 80/443 HTTP. Yes, > I couldn't even connect to userland servers running on port 8080, etc. > Hopefully they've changed this, but I had to rely on some friends > running sshd on port 80 to do business. Since the telnet and ftp ports are probably otherwise unused, you might as well run sshd on those ports too. This has the side effect that if a botched upgrade reinstalls telnet or ftpd you'll get some error messages right away. -- Paul Haas, paulh@hamjudo.com From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 17:21:02 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1M1IJ811916 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:18:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from gwyn.tux.org (ident-user@gwyn.tux.org [207.96.122.8]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1M1IIK11912 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:18:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jsdy@localhost) by gwyn.tux.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id UAA07758; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:18:07 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:18:07 -0500 From: Joseph S D Yao To: paul company Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Web broken link checkers Message-ID: <20020221201807.A27544@gwyn.tux.org> Mail-Followup-To: paul company , sage-members@usenix.org References: <3C75638F.FD958E17@noyb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3C75638F.FD958E17@noyb.com>; from pjc@noyb.com on Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 01:15:59PM -0800 X-Accepted-File-Formats: ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 01:15:59PM -0800, paul company wrote: > Does anyone know of any Unix open source Web broken link checkers? > I've found many broken link checkers, but they're either very expensive > or the only run on Windows. Linklint - -- /*********************************************************************\ ** ** Joe Yao jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao ** \*********************************************************************/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 17:50:20 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1M1lcI12177 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:47:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj1-3-4-9.securesites.net (sj1-3-4-9.securesites.net [192.220.127.202]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1M1laK12173 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:47:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 85852 invoked by uid 18647); 22 Feb 2002 01:47:36 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:47:36 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars Message-ID: <20020221174736.A85652@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <200202210514.g1L5EkA05637@jthome.jthome.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <200202210514.g1L5EkA05637@jthome.jthome.com>; from jeff@jthome.jthome.com on Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 11:14:46PM -0600 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 11:14:46PM -0600, Jeff Tyler wrote: > I think we're whining a bit here folks. There is a rather large and > detailed disclaimer right on the bottom of the page to the effect that > Usenix has been unable to find appropriate software that runs under Unix or > other open systems platform to date. oh, please. usenix/sage has an actual BUDGET, doesnt it? and how many of the members are programmers? The subcommittee handling this should put together a proposal/contract for someone to write the appropriate software for UNIX. Nothing too fancy is needed. Lets say something in java, that should take a good programmer a few lousy days. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 18:19:40 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1M2GTw12344 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:16:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from littejo.earlham.edu (littejo.earlham.edu [159.28.1.253]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1M2GRK12340 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:16:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rowan@localhost) by littejo.earlham.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1M2GMq32683 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:16:22 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rowan) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:16:22 -0500 From: John Rowan Littell To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssh2 supporting ssh Message-ID: <20020221211621.A32211@earlham.edu> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org References: <200202202356.PAA01264@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200202202356.PAA01264@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-RELEASE i386 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lo, Mario Obejas and the coffee pot sang in unison: > What's everybody else using to provide ssh client access to a large=20 > employee population to get to a *Nix ssh server, particularly for=20 > Win2K/NT clients? I'm intrigued by the resounding lack of suggestions for the Win* client from ssh.com (is there a political or security issue I'm unaware of?). For my purposes, it has the advantages of 1) being a much more "Windowsy" client than some of the others (although I'm not familiar enough with F-Secure or SecureCRT to compare there). As others have pointed out, command lines are great for us admins, but my staff like something that acts more like the rest of the Windows programs they're used to. 2) being free for educational institutions and non-commercials. --rowan --=20 John "Rowan" Littell Systems Administrator Earlham College Computing Services http://www.earlham.edu/~littejo/ --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQCVAwUBPHWp9ZdUNSJ2nf/5AQEHmwQAjBoqoJqoqsY1Po2bUmhHFYIBlqsy0lup 9ptvQ40aVMNxUr+hsqKThnUOajl6rnOR+LtIrDz6QG+sI+qPpXflyylYn4PK/hru jwci66aqj6Sz/qoviHk3ZlR4OqROI8ZLf6DqLntN1DEkvgw6mgoc0Ufu7Pe41/ZL 3sQFkHSBfHw= =W+AQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 19:43:32 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1M3ckB12809 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 19:38:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from halfdome.holdit.com (IDENT:merlyn@halfdome.holdit.com [209.102.105.64]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1M3cjK12804 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 19:38:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from merlyn@localhost) by halfdome.holdit.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA29760; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 19:38:39 -0800 To: pjc@noyb.com Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Web broken link checkers References: <3C75638F.FD958E17@noyb.com> From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: 21 Feb 2002 19:38:39 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C75638F.FD958E17@noyb.com> Message-ID: Lines: 29 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "paul" == paul company writes: paul> Does anyone know of any Unix open source Web broken link checkers? paul> I've found many broken link checkers, but they're either very expensive paul> or the only run on Windows. I've re-written a link checker about a half dozen times for my 165 Perl magazine columns. The one I'm currently using that pre-forks a bunch of kids and maintains state such that it can be told to run for limited time periods in the middle of the night but eventually crawl the entire space, is at: although you'll probably want to read to get some of the backstory about the fork manager. Sometime soon, I'll be replacing the Storable datastore with a PostgreSQL backend, perhaps layered with one of the relational-object mappers like Tangram for simplicity. But not yet. :) -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 20:39:29 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1M4ZBh13124 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:35:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls2.std.com [199.172.62.104]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1M4Z9K13120 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:35:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell.TheWorld.com (root@shell01.TheWorld.com [199.172.62.241]) by TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA26110 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 23:35:08 -0500 Received: (from adamm@localhost) by shell.TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA502047 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 23:35:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202220435.XAA502047@shell.TheWorld.com> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars To: sage-members@usenix.org (SAGE Members) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 23:35:08 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <20020221174736.A85652@bolthole.com> from "Philip Brown" at Feb 21, 2002 05:47:36 PM From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Philip Brown wrote: > usenix/sage has an actual BUDGET, doesnt it? Yes -- but is that money best spent on building our own online education software? In this case, I think not. AdamM From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 21:29:27 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1M5QMh13391 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:26:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from hilfy.ece.cmu.edu (HILFY.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.136.133]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1M5QKK13387 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:26:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net (root@VPN36.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.138.36]) by hilfy.ece.cmu.edu (8.11.0/8.8.8) with ESMTP id g1M5QAT29186; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:26:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from allbery@localhost) by rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1M5QB462667; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:26:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net: allbery set sender to allbery@ece.cmu.edu using -f Subject: Re: [SAGE] ssh2 supporting ssh From: "Brandon S. Allbery "KF8NH To: John Rowan Littell Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <20020221211621.A32211@earlham.edu> References: <200202202356.PAA01264@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com> <20020221211621.A32211@earlham.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0.2 Date: 22 Feb 2002 00:26:11 -0500 Message-Id: <1014355571.52911.7.camel@rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2002-02-21 at 21:16, John Rowan Littell wrote: > I'm intrigued by the resounding lack of suggestions for the Win* > client from ssh.com (is there a political or security issue I'm > unaware of?). For my purposes, it has the advantages of Their definitions of "educational institution" and "non-commercial" use have tended to be on the restrictive side, to the point that most people would rather not bother trying to figure out if their use would be legal or not. -- brandon s. allbery [linux][solaris][japh][freebsd] allbery@kf8nh.apk.net system administrator [openafs][heimdal][too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering KF8NH carnegie mellon university ["better check the oblivious first" -ke6sls] From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 21 22:53:24 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1M6oLg13790 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:50:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj1-3-4-9.securesites.net (sj1-3-4-9.securesites.net [192.220.127.202]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1M6oJK13786 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:50:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 7488 invoked by uid 18647); 22 Feb 2002 06:50:19 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:50:19 -0800 From: Philip Brown To: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars Message-ID: <20020221225019.A7367@bolthole.com> Reply-To: Philip Brown Mail-Followup-To: SAGE Members References: <20020221174736.A85652@bolthole.com> <200202220435.XAA502047@shell.TheWorld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <200202220435.XAA502047@shell.TheWorld.com>; from adamm@menlo.com on Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 11:35:08PM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 11:35:08PM -0500, Adam S. Moskowitz wrote: > Philip Brown wrote: > > usenix/sage has an actual BUDGET, doesnt it? > > Yes -- but is that money best spent on building our own online education > software? In this case, I think not. If appropriate software truely "does not exist" for UNIX, then yes, I think it is an extremely worthwhile use of the usenix budget. O' course, if someone wanted to write it for FREE, that would be even better :-) But otherwise... From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 22 04:46:33 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1MCeD015606 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 04:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from cookie.org (divinity.cookie.org [128.227.148.211]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1MCeBK15602 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 04:40:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from cookie.org (biscotti [128.227.148.210]) by cookie.org (8.9.1/8.9.1/daw) with ESMTP id HAA12228; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:40:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C763BF5.A32F5733@cookie.org> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:39:17 -0500 From: Allan West Organization: The Magic Cookie X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kurt Robinson CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars References: <20020220204036.A2490@postal.asicint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Kurt Robinson wrote: > > Don't get me wrong, I think usenix' elearning seminars > are a great idea. But whats with requiring a Windows > computer to participate? > http://www.usenix.org/elearning/#whatyouneed > Seems a bit limiting, doesn't it? > > -Kurt Robinson > kcr@asicint.com It's more than a bit limiting. I don't, and won't, own a PC or use one in the office, so I'll never use that system. Training should be truly cross platform, not Microsoft cross platform (WinME _and_ Win2k). -- Allan West allan@cookie.org http://www.cookie.org/~allan Prescription: Take two cookies and call me in the morning. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 22 06:53:54 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1MEocw17281 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 06:50:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from porfidio.atstake.com (porfidio.atstake.com [63.168.6.70]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g1MEobK17277 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 06:50:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16320 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 14:53:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cam-relay.atstake.com) (10.1.1.30) by porfidio.atstake.com with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 14:53:37 -0000 Received: from juarez.atstake.com (juarez.atstake.com [10.1.33.15]) by cam-relay.atstake.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 424E422869 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:49:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from juarez.atstake.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by juarez.atstake.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1816275C for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:47:13 +0000 (US/Eastern) To: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:50:19 PST." <20020221225019.A7367@bolthole.com> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:47:13 -0500 From: Dan Geer Message-Id: <20020222144713.DC1816275C@juarez.atstake.com> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk As to spending the budget to reverse engineer this or any other product, the answer is "No" or, in legalese, "DMCA." And, yes, we have looked into this. --dan From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Feb 22 07:46:58 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1MFiAV17574 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:44:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org (root@mail.reptiles.org [198.96.117.157]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1MFi8K17570 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:44:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org([198.96.117.157]) (1442 bytes) by mail.reptiles.org via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) id for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:45:20 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.114 2001-Aug-6 #10 built 2002-Jan-14) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:45:19 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Philip Brown cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars In-Reply-To: <20020221225019.A7367@bolthole.com> Message-ID: <20020222103920.O437-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Philip Brown wrote: > > Yes -- but is that money best spent on building our own online education > > software? In this case, I think not. > > If appropriate software truely "does not exist" for UNIX, then yes, I think > it is an extremely worthwhile use of the usenix budget. I'd rather see Usenix concentrate on their core business - which isn't writing software, last I checked. Frankly, while I'm not overly fond of Windows, I'd rather have quality training and testing materials on Windows, than poor quality training run on all OSes - or no training at all! cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 23 06:50:15 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1NEXEb27337 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 06:33:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao02.cox.net (mtao2.east.cox.net [68.1.17.243]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1NEXDK27333 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 06:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from cx598905B ([68.10.255.224]) by lakemtao02.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with SMTP id <20020223143307.QTYY6405.lakemtao02.cox.net@cx598905B> for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:33:07 -0500 Message-ID: <005601c1bc77$1b802e80$6401a8c0@hmpt1.va.home.com> Reply-To: "Joe Dial" From: "Joe Dial" To: "SAGE Members" References: <20020222144713.DC1816275C@juarez.atstake.com> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:33:48 -0500 Organization: Dial Consulting Co. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk OK, I normally lurk, perfering to let those more involved and "in the know" actually contribute, but I've reached my limit on this thread and am jumping up on the nearest soap box. I am going to paste together a few different E-Mails and comment; If you don't like what you see, sorry for using your bandwidth. Joe Dial To Summarize for those who want to delete and move on. I don't advocate USENIX Funding Software development, nor am I against it. I am not writing in support of reverse engineering. I do think that using windows software for UNIX training by a UNIX advocacy group is a cop out, and that it is one of the factors that prevent good software for UNIX from being developed. If the only software for UNIX e-learning is poor, then we use it and encourage those who are dissatisfied with it to improve it. From: "Dan Geer" > As to spending the budget to reverse engineer this or any > other product, the answer is "No" or, in legalese, "DMCA." I've reviewed this entire thread several times and the web page about centra. I haven't looked at the blackboard site (nor do I care to). I can't find any indication anywhere that anybody suggested on this list that some Windows product be reverse engineered. Given that, I don't understand this comment which appears to be completely off topic. Perhaps you meant this for some private communication? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jane-Ellen Long" > Please be assured that the USENIX Board and staff mean every word of the > "Note on the Centra Technology" on the elearning Web page. Every effort is > being made to identify or develop software that offers Centra's features > and reliability but does not require Windows. Software (especially Free or Open Source software) generally comes about from a need. If there is no good e-learning software available on the platform of choice for USENIX members (I presume UNIX), then I think that the best available technology for UNIX should be used. If it is a piece of s**t, then perhaps that will stimulate the need to develope some decent software. To provide a windows based solution does two things: 1) It alienates people who dislike windows (David Wolfskill's .sig says it all) and 2) It removes motivation for someone to produce something better for UNIX. I presume that anyone who is a member of USENIX has some (perhaps small) vested interest in encouraging the use of UNIX and improving the breed. From: "Cat Okita" > I'd rather see Usenix concentrate on their core business - which isn't > writing software, last I checked. I agree fully with this idea, but I think that some of the members, or others who take the e-learning are in the "business" of writing software. If those people are frustrated with the quality of the software used for presentation, then perhaps they would do something about it. > > Frankly, while I'm not overly fond of Windows, I'd rather have quality > training and testing materials on Windows, than poor quality training > run on all OSes - or no training at all! If there were no other alternatives, I agree. However, I think that there is stand up training offered at USENIX events (please excuse my ignorance if I am wrong about this, I haven't been to any events), as well as classroom training from other organizations (whose business is training). I guess I'd say that I support poor quality training that runs on the systems we advocate (together with alternatives such as classroom training) versus training that I (and others) will probably never use because of its Windows bias. Thanks for listening, Joe Dial From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 23 12:19:17 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1NKALh28950 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:10:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls3.std.com [199.172.62.105]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1NKAJK28946 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:10:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell.TheWorld.com (root@shell01.TheWorld.com [199.172.62.241]) by TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27352 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:10:17 -0500 Received: (from adamm@localhost) by shell.TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA735534 for sage-members@usenix.org; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:10:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202232010.PAA735534@shell.TheWorld.com> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars To: sage-members@usenix.org (SAGE Members) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:10:17 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <005601c1bc77$1b802e80$6401a8c0@hmpt1.va.home.com> from "Joe Dial" at Feb 23, 2002 09:33:48 AM From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk [ "dan" = Dan Geer ] [ "joe" = Joe Dial ] dan> to reverse engineer this or any other product joe> I can't find any indication anywhere that anybody suggested on this list joe> that some Windows product be reverse engineered. Given that, I don't joe> understand this comment I don't want to put words in Dan's mouth, but . . . "Elearning" consists of two parts: the software, and the course material. One without the other is useless. If USENIX (or anyone else, for that matter) were to develop an elearning package, it would make sense to be compatible with the data formats of existing course materials. If you didn't use the existing data formats, you'd also have to develop your own course materials -- and that can be quite expensive. I think it's this that Dan was referring to as "reverse engineering." Whether his statement is accurate or not is debatable, but let's agree not to. AdamM From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 23 13:26:37 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1NLJKG29293 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:19:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org (root@mail.reptiles.org [198.96.117.157]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1NLJJK29289 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:19:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org([198.96.117.157]) (3175 bytes) by mail.reptiles.org via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) id for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:20:26 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.114 2001-Aug-6 #10 built 2002-Jan-14) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:20:26 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Joe Dial cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars In-Reply-To: <005601c1bc77$1b802e80$6401a8c0@hmpt1.va.home.com> Message-ID: <20020223160033.V437-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Joe Dial wrote: > I agree fully with this idea, but I think that some of the members, or > others who take the e-learning are in the "business" of writing software. > If those people are frustrated with the quality of the software used for > presentation, then perhaps they would do something about it. One can hope ;> > > Frankly, while I'm not overly fond of Windows, I'd rather have quality > > training and testing materials on Windows, than poor quality training > > run on all OSes - or no training at all! > > If there were no other alternatives, I agree. However, I think that there is > stand up training offered at USENIX events (please excuse my ignorance if I > am wrong about this, I haven't been to any events), as well as classroom > training from other organizations (whose business is training). I guess I'd > say that I support poor quality training that runs on the systems we > advocate (together with alternatives such as classroom training) versus > training that I (and others) will probably never use because of its Windows > bias. All I can say here is "Oh dear!". Part of the reason for offering online training has always been to reach those people that aren't able to attend conferences, or are unable (or not allowed) to take time off from work to attend classroom-style training. If I follow what you're suggesting, we should offer these people sub-standard training simply because it's better to have bad training run on a unix-like operating system, rather than good training on a microsoft operating system. I'll pick my jaw up from the floor now. That's along the lines of saying "Well - we don't have concrete and forms, so I'm not going to shore up this riverbank - even though there are sandbags right here". Don't let bigotry about operating systems encourage you to decry the efforts of Usenix to offer training to a broad range of people - many of whom may never (like yourself) be able to attend a conference. They've made it very clear that they're trying to find a mechanism that allows for quality training and testing under unix - and I applaud that effort. I _also_ applaud their decision to make training/testing available sooner, rather than later - even if it is on a platform which some members have issues with. cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Feb 23 15:42:21 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1NNTxM29957 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:29:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao01.cox.net (mtao1.east.cox.net [68.1.17.244]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1NNTwK29953 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:29:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from cx598905B ([68.10.255.224]) by lakemtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with SMTP id <20020223232953.IXEE3264.lakemtao01.cox.net@cx598905B> for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:29:53 -0500 Message-ID: <006401c1bcc2$15ae3420$6401a8c0@hmpt1.va.home.com> Reply-To: "Joe Dial" From: "Joe Dial" To: "SAGE Members" References: <200202232010.PAA735534@shell.TheWorld.com> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:30:31 -0500 Organization: Dial Consulting Co. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" > I think it's this that Dan was referring to as "reverse engineering." > Whether his statement is accurate or not is debatable, but let's agree > not to. Ooops, forgot about the compatibilty with existing, probably proprietary formats. No debate from me. Joe From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Feb 24 11:47:24 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1OJQUr06942 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:26:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from lanning.cc ([63.166.8.14]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1OJQTK06938 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:26:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lanning@localhost) by lanning.cc (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g1OJPuZ08973; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:25:56 -0800 From: Robert Hajime Lanning Message-Id: <200202241925.g1OJPuZ08973@lanning.cc> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars To: cat@reptiles.org (Cat Okita) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:25:55 -0800 (PST) Cc: joe@dial-consulting.com (Joe Dial), sage-members@usenix.org (SAGE Members) In-Reply-To: <20020223160033.V437-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> from "Cat Okita" at Feb 23, 2002 04:20:26 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk So, to take these courses I now have to go and buy another PC so I can run windows. (and now I have to learn how to make windows stable. *JK*) If it is cross platform like IT SHOULD BE, then people can use what they have. This goes with "can't afford to go to a conference." ---- As written by Cat Okita: > > On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Joe Dial wrote: > > I agree fully with this idea, but I think that some of the members, or > > others who take the e-learning are in the "business" of writing software. > > If those people are frustrated with the quality of the software used for > > presentation, then perhaps they would do something about it. > > One can hope ;> > > > > Frankly, while I'm not overly fond of Windows, I'd rather have quality > > > training and testing materials on Windows, than poor quality training > > > run on all OSes - or no training at all! > > > > If there were no other alternatives, I agree. However, I think that there is > > stand up training offered at USENIX events (please excuse my ignorance if I > > am wrong about this, I haven't been to any events), as well as classroom > > training from other organizations (whose business is training). I guess I'd > > say that I support poor quality training that runs on the systems we > > advocate (together with alternatives such as classroom training) versus > > training that I (and others) will probably never use because of its Windows > > bias. > > All I can say here is "Oh dear!". Part of the reason for offering online > training has always been to reach those people that aren't able to attend > conferences, or are unable (or not allowed) to take time off from work to > attend classroom-style training. > > If I follow what you're suggesting, we should offer these people > sub-standard training simply because it's better to have bad training run > on a unix-like operating system, rather than good training on a microsoft > operating system. > > I'll pick my jaw up from the floor now. > > That's along the lines of saying "Well - we don't have concrete and > forms, so I'm not going to shore up this riverbank - even though there > are sandbags right here". > > Don't let bigotry about operating systems encourage you to decry the > efforts of Usenix to offer training to a broad range of people - many > of whom may never (like yourself) be able to attend a conference. > > They've made it very clear that they're trying to find a mechanism that > allows for quality training and testing under unix - and I applaud that > effort. > > I _also_ applaud their decision to make training/testing available sooner, > rather than later - even if it is on a platform which some members have > issues with. > > cheers! > ========================================================================== > "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound > desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to > avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." > > > -- END OF LINE. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Feb 24 14:32:23 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1OMRGs00347 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:27:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org (root@mail.reptiles.org [198.96.117.157]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1OMREK00343 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:27:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org([198.96.117.157]) (1337 bytes) by mail.reptiles.org via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) id for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 17:28:15 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.114 2001-Aug-6 #10 built 2002-Jan-14) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 17:28:05 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Robert Hajime Lanning cc: Joe Dial , SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars In-Reply-To: <200202241925.g1OJPuZ08973@lanning.cc> Message-ID: <20020224172737.W437-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Robert Hajime Lanning wrote: > So, to take these courses I now have to go and buy another PC so I can run > windows. (and now I have to learn how to make windows stable. *JK*) > > If it is cross platform like IT SHOULD BE, then people can use what they have. > > This goes with "can't afford to go to a conference." I've got an extra Intel box kicking around. What's your address. cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Feb 24 16:48:45 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1P0bbQ01034 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:37:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from lanning.cc ([63.166.8.14]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1P0baK01030 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:37:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lanning@localhost) by lanning.cc (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g1P0bRa09207; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:37:27 -0800 From: Robert Hajime Lanning Message-Id: <200202250037.g1P0bRa09207@lanning.cc> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars To: cat@reptiles.org (Cat Okita) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:37:25 -0800 (PST) Cc: lanning@lanning.cc (Robert Hajime Lanning), joe@dial-consulting.com (Joe Dial), sage-members@usenix.org (SAGE Members) In-Reply-To: <20020224172737.W437-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> from "Cat Okita" at Feb 24, 2002 05:28:05 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk That aside from my current 7 boxes is all I need. I run windows is a vmware session when I am forced to run it. :) What I was getting at is, "have you brought enough for the whole class?" Does this "elearning" work on Mac's? (we already covered the *NIX's) Why was the problem of finding a cross platform web software (which by definition of "web" is cross platform) not brought up to the list before all the labor was done to install this one? I have the same problem here at work. We have this new Enterprise Project Planning Web based software (PlanView). It only works by using a MSIE plugin. This turns it from a "Web" based platform into a "client/server" based platform. gripe gripe gripe... :) ---- As written by Cat Okita: > > On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Robert Hajime Lanning wrote: > > So, to take these courses I now have to go and buy another PC so I can run > > windows. (and now I have to learn how to make windows stable. *JK*) > > > > If it is cross platform like IT SHOULD BE, then people can use what they have. > > > > This goes with "can't afford to go to a conference." > > I've got an extra Intel box kicking around. What's your address. > > cheers! > ========================================================================== > "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound > desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to > avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." > > -- END OF LINE. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 25 08:37:06 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1PGS7c05955 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:28:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com (mail-blue.research.att.com [135.207.30.102]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1PGS4K05951 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:28:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.research.att.com (postal.research.att.com [135.207.23.30]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A97654CE5E for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:28:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com ([135.207.39.165]) by postal.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08871 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:24:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C7A6613.1010800@research.att.com> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:28:03 -0500 From: Andrew Hume User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] boot-time reconfig Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk i am contemplating adding a boot-time reconfiguration step for the (Linux) nodes in my cluster. that is, there is a disk layout description (partitioning, filesystem types, etc) and if there is a discrepancy at boot, it fixes it (by repartitioning, mkfs's, or whatever). there is a minor dance when / is resized (by booting to a backup / disk), but otherwise it is straightforward. it should all work, but it makes me nervous. has anyone else done this, or has advice? -- Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and SAGE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 25 11:23:34 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1PJMEo07984 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:22:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from obento.cs.caltech.edu (obento.cs.caltech.edu [131.215.44.101]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1PJMDK07980 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:22:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu (dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu [131.215.44.94]) by obento.cs.caltech.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F23402B; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:22:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cmalek@localhost) by dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03538; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:22:12 -0800 Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:22:12 -0800 From: Christopher Malek To: Andrew Hume Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] boot-time reconfig Message-ID: <20020225112212.D3104@dinicthys.cs.caltech.edu> References: <3C7A6613.1010800@research.att.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C7A6613.1010800@research.att.com>; from andrew@research.att.com on Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 11:28:03AM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk AH> i am contemplating adding a boot-time reconfiguration step AH> for the (Linux) nodes in my cluster. that is, there is a disk AH> layout description (partitioning, filesystem types, etc) AH> and if there is a discrepancy at boot, it fixes it (by repartitioning, AH> mkfs's, or whatever). there is a minor dance when / is resized AH> (by booting to a backup / disk), but otherwise it is straightforward. AH> it should all work, but it makes me nervous. This makes me nervous, too. Where does the OS come from once you do the mkfs? Are you using this as a way to propagate partitioning changes, or to correct unauthorized reconfigs? If the former, how often do you need to do this? Why do you not want to, say, re-kickstart the nodes to get them to the proper state (too many nodes, perhaps?). If the latter, you could just have it just shut down and send you a mail if something looks strange at boot. Just curious. Chris -- cmalek@caltech.edu Nosce Teipsum Office: (626) 395-2593 Fax: (626) 792-4257 Mail Stop: 014-81 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 25 16:02:44 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1PNwuL11053 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:58:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from noh.ucsd.edu (noh.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.100]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1PNwrK11049 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:58:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from noh.ucsd.edu (localhost.ucsd.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by noh.ucsd.edu (8.11.5/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g1PNwr006544 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:58:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200202252358.g1PNwr006544@noh.ucsd.edu> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] VOTE! Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:58:53 -0800 From: Pat Wilson X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hey, folks! It's that time again - I just got my Usenix ballot for the Board election. Hope I don't have to remind you to VOTE... Do read the candidate statements - the candidates put a lot of time into them - and then make your informed decisions. Remember, every SAGE member is a Usenix member, too! Don't delay - vote *today*. --paw From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 25 16:14:10 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1Q0E3811226 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org (root@mail.reptiles.org [198.96.117.157]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1Q0DxK11222 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:14:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org([198.96.117.157]) (1728 bytes) by mail.reptiles.org via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) id for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:14:56 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.114 2001-Aug-6 #10 built 2002-Jan-14) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:14:51 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Robert Hajime Lanning cc: Joe Dial , SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars In-Reply-To: <200202250037.g1P0bRa09207@lanning.cc> Message-ID: <20020225191305.E437-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Robert Hajime Lanning wrote: > Why was the problem of finding a cross platform web software (which by > definition of "web" is cross platform) not brought up to the list > before all the labor was done to install this one? The only web-based learning sofware that I've used wasn't really cross platform. Wrong browser, no joy. Wrong version of the java libraries, no joy. Wrong type of weather, no joy. It was awfully slow, too. I'm rather assuming that the folks at usenix did their research. > I have the same problem here at work. We have this new Enterprise Project > Planning Web based software (PlanView). It only works by using a MSIE plugin. > This turns it from a "Web" based platform into a "client/server" based platform. > > gripe gripe gripe... :) Heh ;> cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 25 18:28:56 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1Q2Ol312545 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:24:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from iggy.fringehead.org (cookie@iggy.fringehead.org [209.151.228.210]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g1Q2OkK12541 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:24:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26105 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 02:24:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pip.office.fringehead.org) (206.15.104.250) by iggy.fringehead.org with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 02:24:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 1444 invoked by uid 1000); 26 Feb 2002 02:24:44 -0000 From: "Conrad Heiney" Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:24:44 -0800 To: Cat Okita Cc: Robert Hajime Lanning , Joe Dial , SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars Message-ID: <20020226022444.GA1437@pip> References: <200202250037.g1P0bRa09207@lanning.cc> <20020225191305.E437-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020225191305.E437-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Yes, there are at least two facets to this problem. I spent some time at a distance learning company on teams that built online courses and the courseware delivery platform. On the desktop, you have the challenge of delivering interactivity and lots of multimedia, because that's what sells online courseware. The result is a lot of things like desktop java, streaming video, two-way interaction with professors, interactive whiteboards, and other client-side nightmares. Even the web-only portions of the courses tend to be very heavy in javascript. On the server side, you have to deliver all of these things, and even if your base platform is Unix-like, you'll encounter business-driven requests for multimedia servers that only run on Windows. Companies like Centra usually provide both the courseware and the delivery software in a package, so that you can't get the courseware built without using the desktop they specify. So the real challenge if we are to have Unix-friendly web-based education is to get the producers of the courseware to restrict their use of proprietary multimedia technologies. This means starting at the beginning when the courses are specced out and insisting on it. Maybe we can do that for the next batch of courses? Conrad On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 07:14:51PM -0500, Cat Okita wrote: > > On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Robert Hajime Lanning wrote: > > Why was the problem of finding a cross platform web software (which by > > definition of "web" is cross platform) not brought up to the list > > before all the labor was done to install this one? > > The only web-based learning sofware that I've used wasn't really cross > platform. Wrong browser, no joy. Wrong version of the java libraries, no > joy. Wrong type of weather, no joy. It was awfully slow, too. > > I'm rather assuming that the folks at usenix did their research. > > > I have the same problem here at work. We have this new Enterprise Project > > Planning Web based software (PlanView). It only works by using a MSIE plugin. > > This turns it from a "Web" based platform into a "client/server" based platform. > > > > gripe gripe gripe... :) > -- Conrad Heiney conrad@fringehead.org http://fringehead.org ---------- PUNK ROCK!! DISCO DUCK!! BIRTH CONTROL!! From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Feb 25 19:54:03 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1Q3oNE13083 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from lanning.cc ([63.166.8.14]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1Q3oMK13079 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:50:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lanning@localhost) by lanning.cc (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g1Q3oBm10560; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:50:11 -0800 From: Robert Hajime Lanning Message-Id: <200202260350.g1Q3oBm10560@lanning.cc> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Usenix elearning seminars To: cat@reptiles.org (Cat Okita) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:50:10 -0800 (PST) Cc: lanning@lanning.cc (Robert Hajime Lanning), joe@dial-consulting.com (Joe Dial), sage-members@usenix.org (SAGE Members) In-Reply-To: <20020225191305.E437-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> from "Cat Okita" at Feb 25, 2002 07:14:51 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Actualy the web base Cisco stuff works good. It is not chat board stuff, but it uses HTML and Flash only. This is the cisco.netacad.net stuff. (must be enrolled in a class to get access.) ---- As written by Cat Okita: > > On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Robert Hajime Lanning wrote: > > Why was the problem of finding a cross platform web software (which by > > definition of "web" is cross platform) not brought up to the list > > before all the labor was done to install this one? > > The only web-based learning sofware that I've used wasn't really cross > platform. Wrong browser, no joy. Wrong version of the java libraries, no > joy. Wrong type of weather, no joy. It was awfully slow, too. > > I'm rather assuming that the folks at usenix did their research. > > > I have the same problem here at work. We have this new Enterprise Project > > Planning Web based software (PlanView). It only works by using a MSIE plugin. > > This turns it from a "Web" based platform into a "client/server" based platform. > > > > gripe gripe gripe... :) > > Heh ;> > > cheers! > ========================================================================== > "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound > desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to > avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." > > -- END OF LINE. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 26 11:40:29 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1QJZgJ20213 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:35:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from wally.eecs.harvard.edu (wally.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.30]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1QJZeK20208 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:35:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from peg@localhost) by wally.eecs.harvard.edu (8.10.0/8.10.0) id g1QJZce02086; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:35:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:35:38 -0500 (EST) From: Peg Schafer Message-Id: <200202261935.g1QJZce02086@wally.eecs.harvard.edu> To: paw@noh.ucsd.edu, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] VOTE! Cc: peg@eecs.harvard.edu X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Thanks for that reminder Pat! (And now a shameless plug ;) I would like to ask you and all sage-members for your vote. I will bring to the USENIX Board a broad perspective of the issues facing both SAGE and USENIX. I am quite happy to discuss these issues here on the sage-members mailing list. Not only for candidates, I invite members to voice their opinion on the direction of these organizations. USENIX must continue to lead the world in sponsoring *nix initiatives and research. I believe SAGE should grow by improving member services. SAGE needs should not conflict with Usenix's needs. I believe *_both_* organizations are made stronger by interaction. The USENIX board you are about to elect will have to ensure the strong technical conferences as well as face the economic roller coaster. For the last seven years I have managed eecs.harvard.edu; the CS, Robotics and EE research machines at Harvard University. (Yes, I supported Margo Seltzer's machines ;) I'm an old sysadmin who would not have gotten anywhere without USENIX providing the platform, the environment, for learning and the face-to-face exchange of ideas. Thanks for your vote! Happy Hacking, --Peg From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 26 12:08:32 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1QK6BO20710 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:06:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from noh.ucsd.edu (noh.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.100]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1QK6AK20706 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:06:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from paw@localhost) by noh.ucsd.edu (8.11.5/8.10.1) id g1QK69Q18276 for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:06:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:06:09 -0800 (PST) From: Pat Wilson Message-Id: <200202262006.g1QK69Q18276@noh.ucsd.edu> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Mac OS X documentation? X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Where can one find documentation on some of the non-BSD processes that Mac OSX runs (SecurityServer, for example)? I don't find man pages for them (the man pages are terribly disappointing - they look like they were just lifted from a BSD distro, and haven't been changed to reflect OS X behavior), nor can I find the right reference online... Has anyone written a "Mac OS X for Unix-types" book yet? Thanks. --paw Pat Wilson paw@ucsd.edu From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 26 14:42:59 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1QMdwZ23415 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from wally.eecs.harvard.edu (wally.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.30]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1QMdu123411 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:39:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (trey@localhost) by wally.eecs.harvard.edu (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id g1QMdqR16277; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:39:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:39:50 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris To: Pat Wilson cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mac OS X documentation? In-Reply-To: <200202262006.g1QK69Q18276@noh.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Ditto. I thought we had finally said goodbye and good riddance to Netinfo when NeXT-OS went away, but now it's back, and I'll be damned if I can remember how to make it work. Like a couple days ago I tried to add a local hostname-IP address map because I was tired of typing a particular dotted quad. Of course adding it to /etc/hosts didn't work. So I fired up Netinfo, and tried to add the entry to the hosts map. The little "spinning rainbow disc" (does it have a name?) cursor started going, and ten minutes later it was still spinning, so I force-quit the Netinfo utility. Well, then the whole machine fell apart--everything stopped working in weird ways, I couldn't get credentials at login, and I finally had to reboot. I still haven't figured out how to add a hostname, short of bringing up a DNS for my five machines at home.... Grr.... In a message dated Tue, 26 Feb 2002, Pat Wilson writes: > > Where can one find documentation on some of the non-BSD processes > that Mac OSX runs (SecurityServer, for example)? I don't find > man pages for them (the man pages are terribly disappointing - > they look like they were just lifted from a BSD distro, and > haven't been changed to reflect OS X behavior), nor can I find > the right reference online... > > Has anyone written a "Mac OS X for Unix-types" book yet? > > Thanks. > > --paw > > Pat Wilson > paw@ucsd.edu > -- Trey Harris Secretary and Executive SAGE -- The System Administrators Guild (www.sage.org) Opinions above are not necessarily those of SAGE. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 26 17:03:41 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1R0t8b29918 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:55:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from netrack.net (netrack.net [206.168.112.1]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1R0t5129914; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:55:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from office.netrack.net (office.netrack.net [206.168.112.146]) by netrack.net (8.11.6/8.10.0) with ESMTP id g1R0t3617341; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:55:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020226172737.02c58a00@netrack.net> X-Sender: barb@netrack.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:54:50 -0700 To: Trey Harris From: Barb Dijker Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mac OS X documentation? Cc: Pat Wilson , sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: References: <200202262006.g1QK69Q18276@noh.ucsd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 05:39 PM 2/26/02 -0500, Trey Harris bemoaned: >Ditto. I thought we had finally said goodbye and good riddance to Netinfo >when NeXT-OS went away, but now it's back, and I'll be damned if I can >remember how to make it work. OK, I'm a netinfo wonk, even certified by NeXT not only to play with it but as a NeXT sysadmin instructor. I haven't touched MacOS X (donations accepted). But I even have a NeXT plugged in and working. Okay, three. Between that and google, you're in luck. The util was always a pain for unix-heads. There is a tool to dump the a netinfo database in /etc/ file format and conversely load an /etc system file into netinfo (confirmed for OS X). Give this a go: niload hosts . ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:36:50 -0800 (PST) Received: [from pobox3.mot.com (pobox3.mot.com [10.64.251.242]) by motgate4.mot.com (motgate4 2.1) with ESMTP id SAA14492 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:36:50 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from plnt056.comm.mot.com (plnt056.comm.mot.com [145.2.198.83]) by pobox3.mot.com (MOT-pobox3 2.0) with ESMTP id SAA13014 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:25:13 -0700 (MST)] Received: by plnt056.comm.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.52) id <14FZP6L6>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:36:49 -0500 Message-ID: From: Natt Joel-EJN018 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Ballot Issue Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:36:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.52) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk STOP do not send in your Usenix Ballot just yet. There is an issue or concern we need to look at before we vote. Terry you are an experienced and know the By-Laws properly better than most of us. So maybe you can add some light on the follow. Under Robert's Rules of Order (The Most Common Rules by which organizations work) Abstain means your vote does not count and you are lowering the number of Yes votes needed for someone or something to win. If this is the case with USENIX then by voting abstain we are not voting against someone if we do not want them in the office, but in fact lowering the number of yes votes needed. to win. Only if Usenix By-laws say abstain equals no then is it okay. So I ask for you all to consider this and await someone who knows and or can produce the bylaws to answer before you vote since we do have a week or so to mail them back. Thanks Joel E. Natt Enterprise Computing - Network Group Network Infrastructure Team (NIT) Member Wireless Subcommittee Office: (954) 723-4596 Fax: (954) 723-4753 iDEN: 4596 Pager: 877-681-8970 Email: ejn018@motorola.com "Through the Air, Over the 100BaseTx, thru the Switch/Router, off the bridge, past the firewall, over the leased line...nothing but net" "THE VIEWS AND OPINIONS EXPRESSED HERE ARE THOSE OF THE AUTHOR AND HAVE NO BEARING ON OR REFLECT THE OPINIONS OF MOTOROLA, INC. OR ANY OF IT SUBSIDIARIES" From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 26 18:40:47 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1R2WkL01432 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:32:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from glatton.cnchost.com (glatton.cnchost.com [207.155.248.47]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1R2WiC01428; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:32:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from deaddrop.org (w146.z206111213.lax-ca.dsl.cnc.net [206.111.213.146]) by glatton.cnchost.com id VAA21545; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:32:43 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-ID: <3C7C44E6.E029AE93@deaddrop.org> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:31:02 -0800 From: Etaoin Shrdlu Organization: From order, chaos. Entropy rules. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; OpenBSD 2.6 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: usenix sage CC: Pat Wilson , Trey Harris Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mac OS X documentation? References: <200202262006.g1QK69Q18276@noh.ucsd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Normally I don't Cc people on a mailing list, but the lag here is so stunning, that I thought I might s well provide the info for those of you on the wrong coast before bedtime. Pat Wilson wrote: > > Where can one find documentation on some of the non-BSD processes > that Mac OSX runs (SecurityServer, for example)? I don't find > man pages for them (the man pages are terribly disappointing - > they look like they were just lifted from a BSD distro, and > haven't been changed to reflect OS X behavior), nor can I find > the right reference online... Well, the one thing I DON'T recommend is typing man, since the man pages are mostly unixen, and not so helpful for those functionalities that are not unix-like. However: > Has anyone written a "Mac OS X for Unix-types" book yet? Yes, they have. Turns out that O'Reilly (no surprise) has come up with a bunch of books they call the Missing Manual series, and there's one for MacOS 10 (that'd be ISBN 0-596-00082-0). Trey Harris wrote: > > Ditto. I thought we had finally said goodbye and good riddance to Netinfo > when NeXT-OS went away, but now it's back, and I'll be damned if I can > remember how to make it work. The important line for you is on page 236, and states that you should download "Understanding and Using NetInfo" from Apple's web site, at http://www.apple.com/macosx/server/pdf/UnderstandingUsingNetInfo.pdf (whew!). Seems like it might be worth having. > Like a couple days ago I tried to add a local hostname-IP address map > because I was tired of typing a particular dotted quad. Of course adding > it to /etc/hosts didn't work. So I fired up Netinfo, and tried to add the > entry to the hosts map. The little "spinning rainbow disc" (does it have > a name?) cursor started going, and ten minutes later it was still > spinning, so I force-quit the Netinfo utility. Well, then the whole > machine fell apart--everything stopped working in weird ways, I couldn't > get credentials at login, and I finally had to reboot. Rule number one (for 10). Don't enable root. If you are running server, don't use root. Use the tools provided, or else use sudo (yes, I know, but not the same as using root). Only use sudo if you are absolutely desperate. The files in the /etc directory are placed there to make you feel like it's unix. It's not. Don't edit them. You run the risk of a reinstall (really). > I still haven't figured out how to add a hostname, short of bringing up a > DNS for my five machines at home.... Bet the answer is in that pdf I mentioned (I'm already running dns, so for me, the answer's moot). I'm writing a fledgling security doc for the macintosh innocents of my acquaintance. You might find useful answers there (or something I said that was wrong, and needs correcting). It's at http://www.deaddrop.org/security/MacSec.html -- No enterprise is more likely to succeed than one concealed from the enemy until it is ripe for execution. Niccolo Machiavelli From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 26 19:23:49 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1R3GUR01850 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:16:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp6.covad.net (psmtp6.array3.laserlink.net [63.65.123.56]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1R3GTC01846 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:16:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from buddha (h-64-105-67-72.STTNWAHO.covad.net [64.105.67.72]) by smtp6.covad.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21088; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:16:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:16:26 -0800 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mac OS X documentation? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v475) Cc: sage-members@usenix.org To: Pat Wilson From: Leon Towns-von Stauber In-Reply-To: <200202262006.g1QK69Q18276@noh.ucsd.edu> Message-Id: <62D2E30E-2B30-11D6-94D6-003065A76B44@occam.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.475) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Where can one find documentation on some of the non-BSD processes > that Mac OSX runs (SecurityServer, for example)? I don't find > man pages for them (the man pages are terribly disappointing - > they look like they were just lifted from a BSD distro, and > haven't been changed to reflect OS X behavior), nor can I find > the right reference online... > > Has anyone written a "Mac OS X for Unix-types" book yet? Not yet. The presentation I developed for LISA 2001 was targeted to UNIX sysadmins: http://www.occam.com/ocr/osx/ However, being merely presentation slides, they're lacking a lot of detail that would be provided during a live talk. You're absolutely right concerning the man page situation. (On OS X, "strings" is your friend!) In general, there is copious OS X documentation out there. My bookmarks to them are currently scattered, but a couple of sites that come to mind as starting points are www.osxfaq.com and www.macosxhints.com. There remain some very sparsely documented regions of the system, though, and SecurityServer lives in one of them. AFAICT, it acts as a front-end server for Apple's implementation of the Common Data Security Architecture[1] (to which they've opened the source[2], if you're really interested), providing cryptographic services, certificate services, access control, etc. [1] http://www.opengroup.org/security/l2-cdsa.htm [2] http://www.opensource.apple.com/projects/cdsa/ ------------------------------------------------------------- Leon Towns-von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/ Amazon.com, UNIX Systems Engineer "We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!" From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 26 19:46:22 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1R3d0N02064 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:39:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from belial.infersys.com (infersys.com [66.51.209.144]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1R3cxC02060 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:38:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from azazel.infersys.com (azazel.infersys.com [172.16.1.42]) by belial.infersys.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 525E81001BD; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:38:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by azazel.infersys.com (Postfix, from userid 10001) id 9EBEE10F801; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:38:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15484.21692.176072.912754@azazel.infersys.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:38:36 -0800 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Ballot Issue In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 7.00 under 21.4 (patch 6) "Common Lisp" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smith X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk NJ> Under Robert's Rules of Order (The Most Common Rules by which NJ> organizations work) Abstain means your vote does not count and you are NJ> lowering the number of Yes votes needed for someone or something to win. I'm not familiar with the details of Robert's Rules of Order, but I'm not sure I understand this. To make up an example: Let's say I'm running for the USENIX position of Chief Troublemaker. The only choices on the ballot are "Josh" and "Abstain". Four people have cast their votes for me, and the other six don't particularly want me to be elected. How should they vote? If "no one" were also on the ballot and they voted for "no one", then I imagine that I would lose, and USENIX would be without a Chief Troublemaker. In the absence of a "no one" option, I don't see any way for them to vote that will result in my not being elected, and I don't see that it really matters how they vote... ...unless "abstain" means "no one", but that would seem strange, Robert's or no Robert's. -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 26 19:51:07 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1R3i2h02110 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:44:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp6.covad.net (psmtp6.array3.laserlink.net [63.65.123.56]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1R3hxC02106; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:43:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from buddha (h-64-105-67-72.STTNWAHO.covad.net [64.105.67.72]) by smtp6.covad.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02988; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:43:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:43:56 -0800 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mac OS X documentation? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v475) Cc: sage-members@usenix.org To: Trey Harris From: Leon Towns-von Stauber In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <3A421524-2B34-11D6-94D6-003065A76B44@occam.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.475) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Like a couple days ago I tried to add a local hostname-IP address map > because I was tired of typing a particular dotted quad. Of course > adding > it to /etc/hosts didn't work. So I fired up Netinfo, and tried to add > the > entry to the hosts map. The little "spinning rainbow disc" (does it > have > a name?) I usually call it the Eternal Spinning Wheel of Death (or ESWoD, for short). > I still haven't figured out how to add a hostname, short of bringing > up a > DNS for my five machines at home.... You can do it from NetInfo Manager; duplicate one of the other entries in /machines, then fix the hostname and IP address, and get rid of any other properties. Or you can do it from the command line. Assuming you're not part of a larger NetInfo domain hierarchy: sudo nicl / -create /machines/host-to-add sudo nicl / -append /machines/host-to-add ip_address 333.333.333.333 "host-to-add" and "333.333.333.333" are, of course, not literals, and should be replaced by what's appropriate. "ip_address" is a literal. ------------------------------------------------------------- Leon Towns-von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/ Amazon.com, UNIX Systems Engineer "We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!" From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 26 20:49:46 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1R4dNq02620 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:39:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from trinidad (foobar@wks-65-27-0-153.kscable.com [65.27.0.153]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g1R4dLC02615 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:39:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 4941 invoked by uid 1000); 27 Feb 2002 04:39:14 -0000 Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:39:14 -0600 From: Cory Bosley To: Barb Dijker Cc: Trey Harris , Pat Wilson , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mac OS X documentation? Message-ID: <20020227043914.GF776@trinidad.bosleys.org> References: <200202262006.g1QK69Q18276@noh.ucsd.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020226172737.02c58a00@netrack.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020226172737.02c58a00@netrack.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 05:54:50PM -0700, Barb Dijker wrote: > OK, I'm a netinfo wonk, even certified by NeXT not only to play > with it but as a NeXT sysadmin instructor. I haven't > touched MacOS X (donations accepted). But I even have a > NeXT plugged in and working. Okay, three. Between that > and google, you're in luck. You can have my iBook over my dead body, Barb ;) > The util was always a pain for unix-heads. There is > a tool to dump the a netinfo database in /etc/ file format > and conversely load an /etc system file into netinfo > (confirmed for OS X). Give this a go: > > niload hosts . > That will load your /etc/hosts file into the hosts database > for the local netinfo domain. This is an ADD. You need to use > the -d option to delete entries from netinfo that aren't in > the data you load and effectively replace the hosts database > with the file data. Don't do that without doing an nidump first. If you mean to back up your current config, on MacOS X you can just 'cp -R /var/db/netinfo/local.nidb /var/db/netinfo/local.nidb.foo', though using nidump might be a better idea. For more ni* commands, man -k netinfo. MacOS X manpages have been notoriously bad, but since NetInfo doesn't seem to have been modified since NeXT, the manpages actually appear to be current. ;) > Is there not a util gui?? There was on the NeXT. It > was definitely the preferred means of mucking. Yeah. /Applications/Utilities has 'Netinfo Manager' in the Finder, or you can open it from the Terminal: open /Applications/Utilities/NetInfo\ Manager.app/ > http://www.macwrite.com/criticalmass/mac-os-x-hosts-revisited.php Another superb URL is http://www.occam.com/ocr/osx/. This was going to be a tutorial at LISA, but it was canceled and made into a BOF, and it was good. Here's a page with a metric crapload of links: http://osx.hyperjeff.net/links.html Of course Google is an awesome resource too. -- Cory Bosley +1 785 267 0987 http://bosleys.org/~cory/ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 26 22:14:43 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1R63Zn03376 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:03:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org (root@mail.reptiles.org [198.96.117.157]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1R63YC03372 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org([198.96.117.157]) (1624 bytes) by mail.reptiles.org via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) id for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:04:10 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.114 2001-Aug-6 #10 built 2002-Jan-14) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:04:09 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: Josh Smith cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Ballot Issue In-Reply-To: <15484.21692.176072.912754@azazel.infersys.com> Message-ID: <20020227010007.X437-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Feb 2002, Josh Smith wrote: > I'm not familiar with the details of Robert's Rules of Order, but I'm not > sure I understand this. To make up an example: Let's say I'm running for > the USENIX position of Chief Troublemaker. The only choices on the ballot > are "Josh" and "Abstain". Four people have cast their votes for me, and > the other six don't particularly want me to be elected. How should they > vote? I've always thought of 'abstain' as "elect to not vote at all". Canada (at least) has the option to 'refuse your ballot', which is considered to be a deliberate vote cast not to vote, if that makes any sense. I think of it as "all of you suck, so I want it to be known that I came, and voted for nobody". I think you'd need somebody else on the ballot... cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 26 22:45:49 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1R6ZHa03616 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:35:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.fusionbox.net (CPE-144-132-214-11.nsw.bigpond.net.au [144.132.214.11]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g1R6ZFC03611 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:35:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18190 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 06:35:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO samj.net) (10.1.2.10) by 1.2.1.10.in-addr.arpa with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 06:35:12 -0000 Message-ID: <3C7C7E20.30203@samj.net> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:35:12 +1100 From: Sam Johnston User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020205 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Trey Harris CC: Pat Wilson , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mac OS X documentation? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On that subject... the recent 10.1.3 update adds support for LDAP (which I thought it already had) and Active Directory... and I saw something about PAM/NSS for Darwin the other day too. man lookupd might be a good place to start? - samj Trey Harris wrote: >Ditto. I thought we had finally said goodbye and good riddance to Netinfo >when NeXT-OS went away, but now it's back, and I'll be damned if I can >remember how to make it work. > >Like a couple days ago I tried to add a local hostname-IP address map >because I was tired of typing a particular dotted quad. Of course adding >it to /etc/hosts didn't work. So I fired up Netinfo, and tried to add the >entry to the hosts map. The little "spinning rainbow disc" (does it have >a name?) cursor started going, and ten minutes later it was still >spinning, so I force-quit the Netinfo utility. Well, then the whole >machine fell apart--everything stopped working in weird ways, I couldn't >get credentials at login, and I finally had to reboot. > >I still haven't figured out how to add a hostname, short of bringing up a >DNS for my five machines at home.... > >Grr.... > >In a message dated Tue, 26 Feb 2002, Pat Wilson writes: > >>Where can one find documentation on some of the non-BSD processes >>that Mac OSX runs (SecurityServer, for example)? I don't find >>man pages for them (the man pages are terribly disappointing - >>they look like they were just lifted from a BSD distro, and >>haven't been changed to reflect OS X behavior), nor can I find >>the right reference online... >> >>Has anyone written a "Mac OS X for Unix-types" book yet? >> >>Thanks. >> >>--paw >> >>Pat Wilson >>paw@ucsd.edu >> > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 26 22:52:00 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1R6fTK03661 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from imbrium.extragalactic.net (sdsl-216-36-75-206.dsl.sjc.megapath.net [216.36.75.206]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1R6fSC03657 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:41:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from crisium.extragalactic.net (crisium.extragalactic.net [192.168.1.101]) by imbrium.extragalactic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA26028; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:41:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:41:26 -0800 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Ballot Issue Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v480) Cc: sage-members@usenix.org To: Josh Smith From: "Guy B. Purcell" In-Reply-To: <15484.21692.176072.912754@azazel.infersys.com> Message-Id: <06206B1C-2B4D-11D6-9AA6-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.480) X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 07:38 , Josh Smith wrote: > NJ> Under Robert's Rules of Order (The Most Common Rules by which > NJ> organizations work) Abstain means your vote does not count and you > are > NJ> lowering the number of Yes votes needed for someone or something to > win. > > I'm not familiar with the details of Robert's Rules of Order, but I'm > not > sure I understand this. To make up an example: Let's say I'm running for > the USENIX position of Chief Troublemaker. The only choices on the > ballot > are "Josh" and "Abstain". Four people have cast their votes for me, and > the other six don't particularly want me to be elected. How should they > vote? > > If "no one" were also on the ballot and they voted for "no one", then I > imagine that I would lose, and USENIX would be without a Chief > Troublemaker. > > In the absence of a "no one" option, I don't see any way for them to > vote > that will result in my not being elected, and I don't see that it really > matters how they vote... I think that was the point being made--that there's really no way for us _not_ to elect an uncontested candidate... > ...unless "abstain" means "no one", but that would seem strange, > Robert's > or no Robert's. Strange yes, but I think that's what was meant on the ballot: the "abstain" option is available only for uncontested offices. In general, an "abstain" vote is uncounted; so if you needed a 2/3 majority of votes cast for you to become Chief Troublemaker, and let's say three of the six voters abstained, then you could gain the office if just two of the remaining three voters voted for you--the three abstentions don't even count as cast ballots. Personally, I doubt it will matter, but this probably should be cleared up for the record keeping. Anyone happen to have the USENIX by-laws handy? -- Guy (guy@extragalactic.net) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 26 23:29:57 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1R7JHD03956 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:19:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from belial.infersys.com (infersys.com [66.51.209.144]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1R7J2C03951 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:19:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from azazel.infersys.com (azazel.infersys.com [172.16.1.42]) by belial.infersys.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82A951001C0; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:18:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by azazel.infersys.com (Postfix, from userid 10001) id 42D8010F801; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:18:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15484.34890.898065.247131@azazel.infersys.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:18:34 -0800 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Ballot Issue In-Reply-To: <06206B1C-2B4D-11D6-9AA6-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> References: <15484.21692.176072.912754@azazel.infersys.com> <06206B1C-2B4D-11D6-9AA6-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> X-Mailer: VM 7.00 under 21.4 (patch 6) "Common Lisp" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smith X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk GBP> I think that was the point being made--that there's really no way for GBP> us _not_ to elect an uncontested candidate... That may be true, but that doesn't seem like a reason to wait before you vote. JBS> ...unless "abstain" means "no one", but that would seem strange, JBS> Robert's or no Robert's. GBP> Strange yes, but I think that's what was meant on the ballot: the GBP> "abstain" option is available only for uncontested offices. I hadn't actually noticed that; interesting point. GBP> In general, an "abstain" vote is uncounted; so if you needed a 2/3 GBP> majority of votes cast for you to become Chief Troublemaker, and GBP> let's say three of the six voters abstained, then you could gain the GBP> office if just two of the remaining three voters voted for you--the GBP> three abstentions don't even count as cast ballots. Sure, but my point is, what *would* count as a "cast ballot" in that context? The third guy in your hypothetical example, who didn't vote for me -- who'd he vote for? If he didn't check either box, it seems pretty clear like he hasn't cast a ballot, so I don't see why "abstain" is any *worse* than "no box checked". (I don't see that it's any better either, assuming that by "better" you mean "more likely to lead to the uncontested candidate not getting elected.) The USENIX bylaws are at http://www.usenix.org/directory/bylaws.html if you want to read 'em yourself. (Go to www.usenix.org and search for "bylaws"; this isn't hard. :^) In particular, the last sentence of "7.2 Elections" is The officers and directors shall be elected by a plurality of the votes cast. So, the question remains whether "Abstain" is a "vote cast" or not. The policies document doesn't seem to shed any light on this; its section 1.10 says, in part: All elections shall be determined by a plurality of the votes cast, and except as otherwise required by law, all other matters shall be determined by a majority of the votes cast. The word "abstain" doesn't appear in the policies document, nor the bylaws, nor the voting instructions that came with the ballot as far as I can tell. A search on the web site does not at a glance turn up any results that explain what it means, or what will happen if you return a ballot with that box checked. Who's responsible for actually counting the votes, and declaring who has won? That doesn't actually seem to be specified in either the bylaws or the policies document, oddly. Whoever's doing the counting can presumably tell us what procedure they intend to use to decide the winner, though. -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 26 23:52:57 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1R7gGO04147 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:42:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.76.82]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1R7gEC04143 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAVAJO.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.76.82]) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/1.0) with ESMTP id g1R7fmCo026395; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:42:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20020227181032.053088f0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: ggr2@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:16:52 +1100 To: Josh Smith From: Greg Rose Subject: Re: [SAGE] Ballot Issue Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <15484.21692.176072.912754@azazel.infersys.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 07:38 PM 2/26/2002 -0800, Josh Smith wrote: >NJ> Under Robert's Rules of Order (The Most Common Rules by which >NJ> organizations work) Abstain means your vote does not count and you are >NJ> lowering the number of Yes votes needed for someone or something to win. The board meetings are run under Robert's rules, but not the elections. They are fairly loosely specified in the articles or bylaws, which can be found in the members' area of the web pages. (Unfortunately I'm offline from a dialup link in the UK at the moment, so I can't quote them directly.) >I'm not familiar with the details of Robert's Rules of Order, but I'm not >sure I understand this. To make up an example: Let's say I'm running for >the USENIX position of Chief Troublemaker. The only choices on the ballot >are "Josh" and "Abstain". Four people have cast their votes for me, and >the other six don't particularly want me to be elected. How should they >vote? > >If "no one" were also on the ballot and they voted for "no one", then I >imagine that I would lose, and USENIX would be without a Chief >Troublemaker. > >In the absence of a "no one" option, I don't see any way for them to vote >that will result in my not being elected, and I don't see that it really >matters how they vote... > >...unless "abstain" means "no one", but that would seem strange, Robert's >or no Robert's. As I say, it's not Robert's. The rules state (from memory) the phrase "elected by a plurality of the votes" which I understand to mean a simple majority in this context. So, if more people vote "abstain" than "for", the position does in fact remain unfilled. Then, I think, it becomes a casual vacancy, and the rest of the board appoints to fill the position after the election. Usual disclaimers apply... IANAL, I'm offline and haven't checked, etc. Greg. Greg Rose INTERNET: ggr@qualcomm.com Qualcomm Australia VOICE: +61-2-9817 4188 FAX: +61-2-9817 5199 Level 3, 230 Victoria Road, http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ Gladesville NSW 2111 232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Feb 26 23:53:02 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1R7gXZ04161 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:42:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.76.82]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1R7gUC04156 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:42:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAVAJO.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.76.82]) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/1.0) with ESMTP id g1R7fmCs026395; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:42:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20020227183311.01d3d678@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: ggr2@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:40:37 +1100 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Greg Rose Subject: [SAGE] USENIX election Cc: Margo Seltzer , Etaoin Shrdlu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk First, my apologies to any confused people. I meant to write an update to the report from the alternative nominating committee, to say that Melissa Binde had withdrawn due to time commitments, and I somehow forgot to do so. Anyway, Melissa Binde has withdrawn due to time commitments... nothing funny going on. Second, I want to encourage SAGE members to vote. Rekindle some of the outrage from late last year, read the statements, make your own decisions, and *VOTE*. USENIX belongs to its members, and those members include you. Don't sit on your duff. regards, Greg. Greg Rose INTERNET: ggr@qualcomm.com Qualcomm Australia VOICE: +61-2-9817 4188 FAX: +61-2-9817 5199 Level 3, 230 Victoria Road, http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ Gladesville NSW 2111 232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 01:55:56 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1R9j0805272 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:45:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from phobos.caltech.edu (phobos.caltech.edu [131.215.102.1]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1R9ixC05267 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:44:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from aoc.nrao.edu (charter-DHCP-222.caltech.edu [131.215.186.222]) by phobos.caltech.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1R9itk07701; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:44:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3C7CAA69.59DECD5D@aoc.nrao.edu> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 02:44:09 -0700 From: Ruth Milner Reply-To: rmilner@aoc.nrao.edu Organization: NRAO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Ballot Issue References: <4.3.1.2.20020227181032.053088f0@127.0.0.1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Greg Rose wrote: > "elected by a plurality of the votes" which I understand to mean a simple > majority in this context I believe "plurality" just means "more than any other candidate". So, if 100 people voted, giving candidate A 45 votes, candidate B 35, and candidate C 20, A would win because s/he received more votes than either of the others, even though more than half of the total votes went to them; i.e. A did not receive a majority. This is a vital distinction in quite a few political situations. Merriam-Webster's defines "abstain" as "to refrain deliberately [...] from an action or practice". Counting an "abstain" as a vote cast seems rather an odd use of the word, but if this option appears nowhere but for uncontested offices, Greg's interpretation seems the likely intention. Basically it's a yea/nay statement, and if the nays outnumber the yeas then the lone candidate is out of luck. The question then is, does failing to tick either box simply mean that a vote was not cast (i.e. abstaining in the usual sense), or would doing that spoil the ballot? >From all this discussion, it seems this could have been made clearer. I haven't seen the election materials, since I'm away from home at the moment, but were there really no instructions that covered this? Ruth. ---- Ruth Milner National Radio Astronomy Observatory Computing Security Manager, Socorro, NM Assistant to the Director for rmilner@nrao.edu Data Management - 505-835-7282 Computing Acquisitions/Budgets/Contracts FAX 505-835-7027 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 02:09:56 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1R9xZa05405 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from phobos.caltech.edu (phobos.caltech.edu [131.215.102.1]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1R9xXC05401 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:59:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from aoc.nrao.edu (charter-DHCP-222.caltech.edu [131.215.186.222]) by phobos.caltech.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1R9xVk07843; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:59:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3C7CADD4.E9958D18@aoc.nrao.edu> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 02:58:44 -0700 From: Ruth Milner Reply-To: rmilner@aoc.nrao.edu Organization: NRAO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Ballot Issue References: <4.3.1.2.20020227181032.053088f0@127.0.0.1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Greg> "elected by a plurality of the votes" which I understand to mean a Greg> simple majority in this context Having sent a response, I then cottoned onto that closing "in this context", i.e. where there are only two choices. So a plurality is of course the same as a majority in this case. I still have to wonder why there was any room for confusion. This is certainly not the first time there have been uncontested positions. Ruth. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 04:24:46 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RCDYb06591 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:13:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls2.std.com [199.172.62.104]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RCDWC06587 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:13:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell.TheWorld.com (root@shell01.TheWorld.com [199.172.62.241]) by TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA28053 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:13:31 -0500 Received: (from adamm@localhost) by shell.TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA1237691 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:13:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202271213.HAA1237691@shell.TheWorld.com> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Ballot Issue To: sage-members@usenix.org (SAGE Members) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:13:31 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <06206B1C-2B4D-11D6-9AA6-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> from "Guy B. Purcell" at Feb 26, 2002 10:41:26 PM From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-sackHeads-Metrics: voyager 1012; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk "Guy B. Purcell" wrote: > there's really no way for us_not_ to elect an uncontested candidate. And Greg Rose wrote: > "elected by a plurality of the votes" which I understand to mean a simple > majority in this context. So, if more people vote "abstain" than "for", the > position does in fact remain unfilled. Then, I think, it becomes a casual > vacancy, and the rest of the board appoints to fill the position after the > election. If this happened, and even if the most "anti-Kirk-McKusick" or "anti- Lois-Bennett" Board possible were elected, I personally would be VERY SURPRISED if anyone other than Kirk or Lois were appointed to fill those "casual vacancies." The by-laws give the Board damned-near complete freedom to appoint whomever they see fit to fill vacancies. Given that both the official and "unofficial" nominating committees "endorsed" the same two candidates, and given that no member felt strongly enough to get them selves nominated for either of these positions, I can't imagine why the Board would chose to appoint anyone other than Kirk or Lois. That's not to say they can't, or they wouldn't -- but I just don't see it happening. AdamM From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 05:29:21 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RDLVd07108 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:21:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.76.82]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RDLTC07103 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:21:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAVAJO.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.76.82]) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/1.0) with ESMTP id g1RDLJCk000954; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:21:23 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20020228001644.05378a40@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: ggr2@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:21:05 +1100 To: rmilner@aoc.nrao.edu From: Greg Rose Subject: Re: [SAGE] Ballot Issue Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <3C7CADD4.E9958D18@aoc.nrao.edu> References: <4.3.1.2.20020227181032.053088f0@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 02:58 AM 2/27/2002 -0700, Ruth Milner wrote: >I still have to wonder why there was any room for confusion. This is >certainly not the first time there have been uncontested positions. No, but I think it is the first time people are seriously considering trying to prevent someone being elected... Greg. Greg Rose INTERNET: ggr@qualcomm.com Qualcomm Australia VOICE: +61-2-9817 4188 FAX: +61-2-9817 5199 Level 3, 230 Victoria Road, http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ Gladesville NSW 2111 232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 06:01:42 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RDrwt07381 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:53:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-green.research.att.com (H-135-207-30-103.research.att.com [135.207.30.103]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RDrvC07376 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:53:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.research.att.com (postal.research.att.com [135.207.23.30]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7234B1E036 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com ([135.207.39.165]) by postal.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04427 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:50:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C7CE4F1.5050200@research.att.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:53:53 -0500 From: Andrew Hume User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: sage-members-digest V2 #788 References: <200202271000.g1RA00D05424@usenix.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk plurality has always been interpreted to mean 'the most'. so jones wins if he gets more votes than harris. mckusick wins if he gets any yes votes at all. the four candidates for director at large with the largest number of votes win. as greg rose and others pointed out, robert's rules apply to meetings; the rules governing elections for teh board are governed by the bylaws and policies document. for the offices of president and treasurer, the abstain box simply serves as a reminder that you can choose not to vote for that candidate; for this election, abstain and not voting are equivalent. -- Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and SAGE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 06:28:52 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1REOKR07631 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:24:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-green.research.att.com (H-135-207-30-103.research.att.com [135.207.30.103]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1REOJC07627 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:24:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.research.att.com (postal.research.att.com [135.207.23.30]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008101E073 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:24:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com ([135.207.39.165]) by postal.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05128 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:20:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C7CEC11.6040208@research.att.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:24:17 -0500 From: Andrew Hume User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] USENIX Election Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk i expect that when greg rose wrote 'rekindle your outrage', he really
meant to say 'remember how you felt motivated to vote then? then vote now!'.
as he said, read the statements and vote (as USENIX members).

i'd like to add a personal comment inspired by discussions within
the Nominating Committee. i believe that trey harris is unsuitable
for vice president purely because he lacks teh experience for the job.
the job of president is critical in USENIX, particularly the parts
relating to quick responses in emergencies and in supporting the
staff. i think it is important that should teh president become unavailable,
the vice president needs to be able to cover. trey has many
admirable qualities, and i have seen him contribute on both the SAGE Exec
and on SAGE Cert. but, he just doesn't have the experience needed for this job;
he has only just one year of experience on teh SAGE Exec and *none *
on the USENIX board. (i think trey should have run at another position.)
and lest you think that this is an abstract concern, i covered for dan geer
over several months this term when dan, for various unanticipated reasons
including 9/11, was unable put the time in.
-- 
Andrew Hume  (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886
andrew@research.att.com  (Work) +1 973-360-8651
AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and SAGE
From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 08:01:57 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RFsCT08515 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from belial.infersys.com (infersys.com [66.51.209.144]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RFsBC08511 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:54:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from azazel.infersys.com (azazel.infersys.com [172.16.1.42]) by belial.infersys.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 279801001B5; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:54:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by azazel.infersys.com (Postfix, from userid 10001) id B197710F801; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:53:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15485.257.899084.354170@azazel.infersys.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:53:37 -0800 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Ballot Issue In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020228001644.05378a40@127.0.0.1> References: <4.3.1.2.20020227181032.053088f0@127.0.0.1> <4.3.1.2.20020228001644.05378a40@127.0.0.1> X-Mailer: VM 7.00 under 21.4 (patch 6) "Common Lisp" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smith X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk RM == Ruth Milner GR == Greg Rose RM> I still have to wonder why there was any room for confusion. This is RM> certainly not the first time there have been uncontested positions. GR> No, but I think it is the first time people are seriously considering GR> trying to prevent someone being elected... Perhaps true, but as Adam pointed out, there's pretty much no way to accomplish this, given that no one else seems to have wanted the job enough to get themselves nominated for it. I suppose the newly-elected Board could also consist of a majority of people who don't like the uncontested candidate, but it's not clear where they'll find someone who wants to serve... It's not hard to get on the ballot, and I'm not sure I'd want to see someone fill any of these positions if they couldn't figure out how to get five members together to nominate them. I'm still curious to hear what the rules are (Andrew, was your recent post about this authoritative on behalf of whoever will be counting the votes, or just your personal understanding of what will probably happen?), but I'll be frankly amazed if it turns out to matter in this case. -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 08:38:07 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RGTZ408949 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from phobos.caltech.edu (phobos.caltech.edu [131.215.102.1]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RGTYC08945 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from aoc.nrao.edu (charter-DHCP-222.caltech.edu [131.215.186.222]) by phobos.caltech.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1RGTWk21491; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:29:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3C7D093C.9613B599@aoc.nrao.edu> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:28:44 -0700 From: Ruth Milner Reply-To: rmilner@aoc.nrao.edu Organization: NRAO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Ballot Issue References: <4.3.1.2.20020227181032.053088f0@127.0.0.1> <4.3.1.2.20020228001644.05378a40@127.0.0.1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I wrote: > I still have to wonder why there was any room for confusion. This is > certainly not the first time there have been uncontested positions. Greg (and others in private email) replied: > No, but I think it is the first time people are seriously considering > trying to prevent someone being elected... Quite likely, but by "room for confusion" I was trying to say that the instructions included with the ballots should have been clear and compre- hensive enough to answer these questions before they needed to be asked. (As I say, I haven't seen them this time around, so I don't know what was described there in this respect.) Ruth. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 09:13:02 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RH36o09399 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:03:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from paladin.globnix.org (paladin.globnix.org [195.11.247.40]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RH34C09395 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:03:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by paladin.globnix.org with local id 16g7Tr-0002Oa-00 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:03:03 +0000 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:03:03 +0100 From: Phil Pennock To: SAGE members Subject: Re: [SAGE] SOAP and or secure file transfer methods? Message-ID: <20020227180303.A20120@globnix.org> Mail-Followup-To: SAGE members References: <20011220195642.D562@idefix.rtfs.de> <20020220115657.A30939@globnix.org> <20020220101153.B3418@hodgsonhouse.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020220101153.B3418@hodgsonhouse.com>; from tillman@hodgsonhouse.com on Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 10:11:53AM -0600 X-Disclaimer: Any views expressed in this message, where not explicitly attributed otherwise, are mine and mine alone. Such views do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-DCC-errno-Metrics: voyager 1006; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2002-02-20 at 10:11 -0600, Tillman Hodgson wrote: > The scp from OpenSSH has this bit of code: >=20 > if (strchr(name, '\n') !=3D NULL) { > run_err("%s: skipping, filename contains a newline", name); > goto next; > } Looking through the ChangeLog: 20011003 [...] - (bal) OpenBSD CVS Sync: [...] - markus@cvs.openbsd.org 2001/10/01 08:06:28 [scp.c] skip filenames containing \n; report jdamery@chiark.greenend.org.uk and matthew@debian.org [...] That falls between "Release 3.0.1p1" and "Release OpenSSH-2.9p1", so I guess that the answer is "Ensure that your OpenSSH is up to 3.0.1p1 at the very least". I have no information on the SSH.com version and its susceptibility to this problem. > Are there additional problems that aren't covered by this? Not that come to mind, without going and reading the literature again. --=20 Decrypt (n & v.t.): The basement of a Jamaican church. --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (OpenBSD) iD8DBQE8fRFGfDS04Uzk9lURArTIAJ960ciaO8YBt+ig5cAobNj5l//cjQCg2iFC nRblneqskrOdXGiJLf+dnJE= =uf2J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 10:08:40 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RHwgk10304 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:58:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from noh.ucsd.edu (noh.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.100]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RHwfC10300 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:58:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from noh.ucsd.edu (localhost.ucsd.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by noh.ucsd.edu (8.11.5/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g1RHwd029977; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:58:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200202271758.g1RHwd029977@noh.ucsd.edu> To: Andrew Hume cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] USENIX Election In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:24:17 EST." <3C7CEC11.6040208@research.att.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:58:39 -0800 From: Pat Wilson X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk [ I've taken the liberty of attempting to remove the html from Andrew's mail; apologies if I've unintentionally changed any substance. ] I've already sent my initial exhortation to vote, which I tried to make as apolitical as possible - now I'll add a personal comment of my own: I feel that Mike Jones is unsuitable for Usenix Vice President based on his past actions and apparent inability to accurately recall details of who he's spoken to, and when. From all accounts, Mike's complete and total misread of situation and expectations seems to have precipitated the event that unjustly removed Barb and Peg from the SAGE Exec last year. I generally agree with Andrew that officers of the Board should have Board experience; however, in this case the Board member standing is, IMO, just not an option for this position. --paw Pat Wilson founding SAGE Board member paw@ucsd.edu || paw@sage.org Andrew Hume writes: > i expect that when greg rose wrote 'rekindle your outrage', he really > meant to say 'remember how you felt motivated to vote then? then vote now!'. > as he said, read the statements and vote (as USENIX members). > > i'd like to add a personal comment inspired by discussions within > the Nominating Committee. i believe that trey harris is unsuitable > for vice president purely because he lacks teh experience for the job. > the job of president is critical in USENIX, particularly the parts > relating to quick responses in emergencies and in supporting the > staff. i think it is important that should teh president become unavailable, > the vice president needs to be able to cover. trey has many > admirable qualities, and i have seen him contribute on both the SAGE Exec > and on SAGE Cert. but, he just doesn't have the experience needed for this > job; > he has only just one year of experience on teh SAGE Exec and *none* > on the USENIX board. (i think trey should have run at another position.) > and lest you think that this is an abstract concern, i covered for dan geer > over several months this term when dan, for various unanticipated reasons > including 9/11, was unable put the time in. > > Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 > andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 > AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and SAGE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 10:23:03 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RIBt110612 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:11:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from wayne.ucns.uga.edu (wayne.ucns.uga.edu [128.192.6.54]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RIBsC10607 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:11:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (steve@localhost) by wayne.ucns.uga.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1RIBQm11466 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:11:26 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:11:26 -0500 (EST) From: "Steve G. Hilliard" X-X-Sender: steve@wayne.ucns.uga.edu To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] SAGE/USENIX friction In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020228001644.05378a40@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I just know this is going to make a bunch of you groan, but I finally joined SAGE and USENIX only a month or two ago. Would someone be willing to explain to me (off-list please) what the heck happened re: SAGE/USENIX relations? Apologies to those who are tired of the issue, and I don't mean to prompt a re-hash here, I just want to catch up the issue. Reading the statements in the ballot raised my eyebrows ;-) Steve On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Greg Rose wrote: > At 02:58 AM 2/27/2002 -0700, Ruth Milner wrote: > >I still have to wonder why there was any room for confusion. This is > >certainly not the first time there have been uncontested positions. > > No, but I think it is the first time people are seriously considering > trying to prevent someone being elected... > > Greg. > > > Greg Rose INTERNET: ggr@qualcomm.com > Qualcomm Australia VOICE: +61-2-9817 4188 FAX: +61-2-9817 5199 > Level 3, 230 Victoria Road, http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ > Gladesville NSW 2111 232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C > -- ------------------------------------------------------ Steve G. Hilliard "........to administer, divine" Production Systems Administration Support Enterprise Information Technology Services University of Georgia From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 12:10:12 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RK05W12696 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:00:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from dsl-216-227-100-85.telocity.com (dsl-216-227-100-85.telocity.com [216.227.100.85]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RJxvC12687 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:59:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from vector (vector [192.168.0.50]) by dsl-216-227-100-85.telocity.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id g1RK1cb05362; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:01:38 -0600 From: dpuryear@usa.net (Dustin Puryear) To: brluglist@brlug.net, lafix-discuss@lafix.org, sage-members@usenix.org Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc Subject: [SAGE] mkfs.ext2 fails even after fdisk Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:00:21 GMT Message-ID: <3c7d3a29.10767442@dpbox.dhs.org> X-Mailer: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I am running Red Hat 6.2 using an IDE disk. I have formatted the disk as follows: # fdisk -l /dev/hda Disk /dev/hda: 16 heads, 63 sectors, 39870 cylinders Units = cylinders of 1008 * 512 bytes Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/hda4 1 39870 20094479+ 5 Extended /dev/hda5 1 6096 3072383 83 Linux /dev/hda6 6097 9144 1536191+ 82 Linux swap /dev/hda7 9145 11176 1024096+ 83 Linux /dev/hda8 11177 21335 5120104+ 83 Linux /dev/hda9 21336 39870 9341608+ 83 Linux For some reason I cannot create a file system on /dev/hda8 or /dev/hda9: # mkfs.ext2 /dev/hda8 mke2fs 1.18, 11-Nov-1999 for EXT2 FS 0.5b, 95/08/09 /dev/hda8: Invalid argument passed to ext2 library while setting up superblock # mkfs.ext2 /dev/hda9 mke2fs 1.18, 11-Nov-1999 for EXT2 FS 0.5b, 95/08/09 /dev/hda9: Invalid argument passed to ext2 library while setting up superblock Does anyone know why this is happening? I do a search on Google and didn't find anything. I'm not really sure what the problem is. It could be an IDE disk thing. Unfortunately, I'm not an expert with IDE disks under Linux. Regards, Dustin --- Dustin Puryear Information Systems Contractor http://members.telocity.com/~dpuryear PGP Key available at http://www.us.pgp.net In the beginning the Universe was created. This has been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 12:20:36 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RKBup12881 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:11:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.asicint.com (root@postal.asicint.com [205.218.106.10]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RKBtC12877 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:11:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.asicint.com (kcr@postal.asicint.com [127.0.0.1]) by postal.asicint.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1RKBMBh021612 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:11:22 -0500 Received: (from kcr@localhost) by postal.asicint.com (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1RKBMeM021611 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:11:22 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:11:22 -0500 From: Kurt Robinson To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] SAGE/USENIX friction Message-ID: <20020227151122.A21551@postal.asicint.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20020228001644.05378a40@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from flowman@arches.uga.edu on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 01:11:26PM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I would suggest, as opposed to rehashing on list, you go to http://www.usenix.org/sage/sysadmins/sage-members-archive/index.html and browse around the messages, if memory recalls, around October 2001. -kurt On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 01:11:26PM -0500, Steve G. Hilliard wrote: > Hi, > > I just know this is going to make a bunch of you groan, but I finally > joined SAGE and USENIX only a month or two ago. Would someone be willing > to explain to me (off-list please) what the heck happened re: > SAGE/USENIX relations? > > Apologies to those who are tired of the issue, and I don't mean to prompt > a re-hash here, I just want to catch up the issue. Reading the statements > in the ballot raised my eyebrows ;-) > > Steve > > On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Greg Rose wrote: > > > At 02:58 AM 2/27/2002 -0700, Ruth Milner wrote: > > >I still have to wonder why there was any room for confusion. This is > > >certainly not the first time there have been uncontested positions. > > > > No, but I think it is the first time people are seriously considering > > trying to prevent someone being elected... > > > > Greg. > > > > > > Greg Rose INTERNET: ggr@qualcomm.com > > Qualcomm Australia VOICE: +61-2-9817 4188 FAX: +61-2-9817 5199 > > Level 3, 230 Victoria Road, http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ > > Gladesville NSW 2111 232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------ > Steve G. Hilliard "........to administer, divine" > Production Systems Administration Support > Enterprise Information Technology Services > University of Georgia > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 12:47:44 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RKaQ613309 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:36:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfw-gate3.raytheon.com (dfw-gate3.raytheon.com [199.46.199.232]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RKaOC13305 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:36:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ds02w01.directory.ray.com (ds02w01.directory.ray.com [147.25.154.117]) by dfw-gate3.raytheon.com (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id g1RKaEl06115 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:36:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from ds02w01.directory.ray.com (root@localhost) by ds02w01.directory.ray.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g1RKaBbE015502 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:36:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com (seasnake.RSC.RAYTHEON.COM [147.17.205.60]) by ds02w01.directory.ray.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g1RKaAf8015490 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:36:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from seasnake (seasnake [147.17.205.60]) by seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA01441 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:36:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200202272036.MAA01441@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:36:10 -0800 (PST) From: Mario Obejas Reply-To: Mario Obejas Subject: [SAGE] Ballots were mailed Feb 19th? To: sage-members@usenix.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: a8NvFlyRAaIbqHBp3sPerg== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4.2 SunOS 5.8 sun4u sparc X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I would like to make my USENIX vote count. I have yet to receive my ballot yet I received my ;login two days ago. So, for those of us who haven't received our ballots and are seeing initial salvos get lobbed .... 1. After what date should we worry about a ballot not arriving? 2. If it gets to that point, how do we get a replacement ballot? The post office lost 15,000 W2 forms out here so anything is possible. Mario Obejas Engineering Automation & Computing Raytheon Electronic Systems 310-334-7201 (Voice) 310-366-4867 (Pager) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 13:19:57 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RLAxE13762 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:10:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from wayne.ucns.uga.edu (wayne.ucns.uga.edu [128.192.6.54]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RLAvC13758 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:10:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (steve@localhost) by wayne.ucns.uga.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1RLAUl12235 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:10:30 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:10:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Steve G. Hilliard" X-X-Sender: steve@wayne.ucns.uga.edu To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] SAGE/USENIX friction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Following up to my own question, thanks to the member who pointed me to the archive--I had looked for it, and checked my subscription greeting, but hadn't stumbled across its location. I'll go read through it. Steve, On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Steve G. Hilliard wrote: > Hi, > > I just know this is going to make a bunch of you groan, but I finally > joined SAGE and USENIX only a month or two ago. Would someone be willing > to explain to me (off-list please) what the heck happened re: > SAGE/USENIX relations? -- ------------------------------------------------------ Steve G. Hilliard "........to administer, divine" Production Systems Administration Support Enterprise Information Technology Services University of Georgia From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 13:35:56 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RLRRu13968 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:27:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RLRQI13963 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:27:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls3.std.com [199.172.62.105]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RKxMC13622 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:59:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell.TheWorld.com (root@shell01.TheWorld.com [199.172.62.241]) by TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19225 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:59:21 -0500 Received: (from adamm@localhost) by shell.TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA1338922 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:59:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202272059.PAA1338922@shell.TheWorld.com> Subject: [SAGE] Mike or Trey? (was Re: USENIX Election) To: sage-members@usenix.org (SAGE Members) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:59:21 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <3C7CEC11.6040208@research.att.com> from "Andrew Hume" at Feb 27, 2002 09:24:17 AM From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk So here we have two equally-well-known and (I believe) equally-well- respected senior members of the organizations offering directly conflicting recommendations for the office of Vice President. Andrew Hume says, "Trey is unsuitable"; Pat Wilson says, "Mike is unsuitable"; both give what appear to be sound reasons to support their positions. So what's a geek to do? Obviously, read Mike's and Trey's candidate statements: http://www.usenix.org/about/elections02/harris.html http://www.usenix.org/about/elections02/jones.html Then, take a moment to read Kirk McKusick's statement: http://www.usenix.org/about/elections02/mckusick.html It's all but certain (to me, at least) that Kirk is going to be President of the USENIX Board for the next two years. In light of that, I think every member should at least read Kirk's reasons for endorsing Mike. Note that I am NOT saying "vote for Mike because Kirk says so"; instead, I am simply suggesting that people consider Kirk's opinion -- as well as Andrew's and Pat's -- when deciding who to vote for. Heck, I *can't* say "vote this way because Kirk says to"; if everyone did that, *I* wouldn't get elected. :-) AdamM From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 14:02:06 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RLrTi14256 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:53:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.76.82]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RLrRC14252 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:53:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAVAJO.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.76.82]) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/1.0) with ESMTP id g1RLrHCk007297; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:53:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20020228061422.051ceee8@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: ggr2@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:15:36 +1100 To: Andrew Hume From: Greg Rose Subject: Re: [SAGE] Re: sage-members-digest V2 #788 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <3C7CE4F1.5050200@research.att.com> References: <200202271000.g1RA00D05424@usenix.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 08:53 AM 2/27/2002 -0500, Andrew Hume wrote: >for the offices of president and treasurer, the abstain box >simply serves as a reminder that you can choose not >to vote for that candidate; for this election, abstain and not >voting are equivalent. This is certainly not my understanding. I very much hope that the difference between our interpretations is moot. Greg. Greg Rose INTERNET: ggr@qualcomm.com Qualcomm Australia VOICE: +61-2-9817 4188 FAX: +61-2-9817 5199 Level 3, 230 Victoria Road, http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ Gladesville NSW 2111 232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 14:20:53 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RMBrS14523 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:11:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RMBpC14518 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:11:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0234.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.234] helo=earthlink.net) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gCIf-0000iq-00; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:11:49 -0800 Received: from localhost (cos@localhost) by earthlink.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g1RMBh601605; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:11:44 -0800 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:11:43 -0800 (PST) From: Cos X-X-Sender: To: Josh Smith cc: Subject: Re: [SAGE] Ballot Issue In-Reply-To: <15484.34890.898065.247131@azazel.infersys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Feb 2002, Josh Smith wrote: > The USENIX bylaws are at http://www.usenix.org/directory/bylaws.html if > you want to read 'em yourself. (Go to www.usenix.org and search for > "bylaws"; this isn't hard. :^) [snip] > > Who's responsible for actually counting the votes, and declaring who has > won? That doesn't actually seem to be specified in either the bylaws or > the policies document, oddly. Whoever's doing the counting can presumably > tell us what procedure they intend to use to decide the winner, though. Article 9.4 states, "Authentication of Ballots: Procedures to authenticate the ballots shall be set forth in the Policies Document." The Policies Document, http://www.usenix.org/directory/policies.pdf, states in section 1.10. Elections, "The Secretary shall designate a date for the ballot to be distributed to its members...." "All elections shall be deetermined by a plurality of the votes cast, and except as otherwise required by law, all other matters shall be determined by a majority of the votes cast. In the event of a dispute over the outcome of a vote of the members, teh Executive Director shall select an independent third party to audit the ballots, and the result of that audit shall be published." The implication is that the current board will authenticate the elections, though it would behoove the curious to check the laws governing organizations of USENIX's type. I wasn't able to find an organization definition, such as "501c3 charitable organization blah blah blah" on the web site. I do not advocate this, being new to USENIX/SAGE politics, but I believe it would be possible to challenge the results of the USENIX election, based on the lack of definition of "abstain" in the bylaws and policies and only if the number of votes for a given candidate were less than the number of abstentions for that candidate. > -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) > John -- --Cos "The best of us drowns in the worst. Start swimming!"--B.P. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 14:36:20 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RMP5U14824 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:25:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.106.3.49] (guinan.usenix.org [131.106.3.49]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RMP3C14820; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:25:03 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200202272036.MAA01441@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com> References: <200202272036.MAA01441@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:25:02 -0800 To: Mario Obejas , sage-members@usenix.org From: Toni Veglia Subject: Re: [SAGE] Ballots were mailed Feb 19th? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Ballots were mailed on 2/19/02 via first class or air mail to all USENIX members whose dues were paid as of 2/12/02. Toni Veglia USENIX At 12:36 PM -0800 2/27/02, Mario Obejas wrote: >I would like to make my USENIX vote count. >I have yet to receive my ballot yet I received my ;login two days ago. > >So, for those of us who haven't received our ballots and are seeing >initial salvos get lobbed .... >1. After what date should we worry about a ballot not arriving? >2. If it gets to that point, how do we get a replacement ballot? > >The post office lost 15,000 W2 forms out here so anything is possible. > >Mario Obejas >Engineering Automation & Computing >Raytheon Electronic Systems >310-334-7201 (Voice) >310-366-4867 (Pager) Toni Veglia toni@usenix.org USENIX Association/SAGE 510/528-8649 2560 Ninth Street, #215, Berkeley, CA 94710 FAX 510/548-5738 http://www.usenix.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 14:37:43 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RMQnR14865 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:26:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from minuet.das.harvard.edu (minuet.das.harvard.edu [140.247.50.251]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RMQlC14861 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:26:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.12] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minuet.das.harvard.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08521; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:26:23 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: lois@localhost Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020227151122.A21551@postal.asicint.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20020228001644.05378a40@127.0.0.1> <20020227151122.A21551@postal.asicint.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:26:19 -0500 To: Kurt Robinson From: Lois Bennett Subject: Re: [SAGE] SAGE/USENIX friction Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Warning as of 5:20 pm EST the link to the 2001 archives points to the 2000 archives. The URL to the 2001 archives is http://www.usenix.org/sage/sysadmins/sage-members-archive/2001/maillist.html I have notified the USENIX office and this will probably be fixed soon. Lois At 3:11 PM -0500 2/27/02, Kurt Robinson wrote: >I would suggest, as opposed to rehashing on list, you go to >http://www.usenix.org/sage/sysadmins/sage-members-archive/index.html > >and browse around the messages, if memory recalls, around October 2001. > >-kurt >On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 01:11:26PM -0500, Steve G. Hilliard wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I just know this is going to make a bunch of you groan, but I finally >> joined SAGE and USENIX only a month or two ago. Would someone be willing >> to explain to me (off-list please) what the heck happened re: >> SAGE/USENIX relations? >> >> Apologies to those who are tired of the issue, and I don't mean to prompt >> a re-hash here, I just want to catch up the issue. Reading the statements >> in the ballot raised my eyebrows ;-) >> >> Steve >> >> On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Greg Rose wrote: >> >> > At 02:58 AM 2/27/2002 -0700, Ruth Milner wrote: >> > >I still have to wonder why there was any room for confusion. This is >> > >certainly not the first time there have been uncontested positions. >> > >> > No, but I think it is the first time people are seriously considering >> > trying to prevent someone being elected... >> > >> > Greg. >> > >> > >> > Greg Rose INTERNET: ggr@qualcomm.com >> > Qualcomm Australia VOICE: +61-2-9817 4188 FAX: +61-2-9817 5199 >> > Level 3, 230 Victoria Road, http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ >> > Gladesville NSW 2111 232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C >> > >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> Steve G. Hilliard "........to administer, divine" >> Production Systems Administration Support > > Enterprise Information Technology Services > > University of Georgia > > > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 14:49:40 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RMcPJ15132 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:38:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from minuet.das.harvard.edu (minuet.das.harvard.edu [140.247.50.251]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RMcOC15128 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:38:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.12] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minuet.das.harvard.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA09044; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:38:22 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: lois@localhost Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020227151122.A21551@postal.asicint.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20020228001644.05378a40@127.0.0.1> <20020227151122.A21551@postal.asicint.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:30:05 -0500 To: Kurt Robinson From: Lois Bennett Subject: Re: [SAGE] SAGE/USENIX friction Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The problem I reported has been repaired quite promptly. Thank you, Jane-Ellen. Lois At 3:11 PM -0500 2/27/02, Kurt Robinson wrote: >I would suggest, as opposed to rehashing on list, you go to >http://www.usenix.org/sage/sysadmins/sage-members-archive/index.html > >and browse around the messages, if memory recalls, around October 2001. > >-kurt >On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 01:11:26PM -0500, Steve G. Hilliard wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I just know this is going to make a bunch of you groan, but I finally >> joined SAGE and USENIX only a month or two ago. Would someone be willing >> to explain to me (off-list please) what the heck happened re: >> SAGE/USENIX relations? >> >> Apologies to those who are tired of the issue, and I don't mean to prompt >> a re-hash here, I just want to catch up the issue. Reading the statements >> in the ballot raised my eyebrows ;-) >> >> Steve >> >> On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Greg Rose wrote: >> >> > At 02:58 AM 2/27/2002 -0700, Ruth Milner wrote: >> > >I still have to wonder why there was any room for confusion. This is >> > >certainly not the first time there have been uncontested positions. >> > >> > No, but I think it is the first time people are seriously considering >> > trying to prevent someone being elected... >> > >> > Greg. >> > >> > >> > Greg Rose INTERNET: ggr@qualcomm.com >> > Qualcomm Australia VOICE: +61-2-9817 4188 FAX: +61-2-9817 5199 >> > Level 3, 230 Victoria Road, http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ >> > Gladesville NSW 2111 232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C >> > >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> Steve G. Hilliard "........to administer, divine" >> Production Systems Administration Support > > Enterprise Information Technology Services > > University of Georgia > > > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 15:01:46 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RMr5X15504 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:53:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts7.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.40]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RMr1C15499; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:53:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from crowsnesne8rna ([64.231.16.50]) by tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with SMTP id <20020227225259.GBDX19819.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@crowsnesne8rna>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:52:59 -0500 From: "Jeff & Heather" To: , , Subject: [SAGE] Upcoming Election Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:53:30 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=3 Fuz1=3 Fuz2=3 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I would just like to express my concern about the upcoming election. Like most member sysadmins I sit in the background and watch, learn and listen to the goings on of our public interaction. I must say, I have been pleasantly surprised and happy with the depth of knowledge and professionalism that has been shown by all people of USENIX/SAGE. That is, until now... I can understand that with any organization/corporation there has to be some measure of direction and control. But, if the present Board wishes to select the next Board based on its own opinions that is not democratic in the least. I mean, why even bother with an electorate when there is only one "nominated" President and Treasurer. As well, the candidates are taking this "follow me" attitude in the Statements brochure and recommending who you should vote for. This whole situation stinks of power mongering and foreselection. As Mr. Geer put it, "We, the USENIX membership, are lucky to have almost entirely escaped the negatives of democracy..." I don't see a democracy be it negative or positive. The Board chooses a nominating committee who in turn chooses the Board. I get the feeling that as members who vote we are but mindless sheep and the BOD (Board of Directors) is the shepherd. I wonder, in the light of recent events (ie. removal of two SAGE executives) how much more of a strain this is placing on the relationship between USENIX/SAGE as well as the profession as a whole. If we can't govern ourselves justly, how can we even call ourselves a profession based upon the articles we are setting out in the forum. In light of what I have said though, I would like to point out that Mr. Geer and the rest of the current Board have done an admirable job. In fact, I believe that all members chosen by the nominating committee are more then qualified to do their respective duties. They have the experience, the knowledge and the wherewithall I, as a member, would expect. Also, I don't think that fighting from without (ie. Mr. Rose's "alternative nominating committee", all of the ranting and flaming) in the ways that I have seen will do anything positive for us either. This will only cause divisiveness and more straining of relationships. When all is said and done, in order for us to progress we absolutely need to have open lines of communication. I hope, like most of us, that our chosen profession is someday as respected as some other professional groups. The efforts being displayed by SAGE (testing and education) and USENIX (LISA and other forums) are doing much to further this acceptance. We are a proud bunch; in most cases, educated, experienced and looking forward to our future. Please don't damage all of the work that we have done (especially all of the current and past BODs) with your current course of actions. I only have this advice: let's talk. Let's put our differences on the table before chaos gets the upper hand. Let's sort out the differences between SAGE and USENIX and work as a team to further our profession. Because it's obvious to me, and I hope many others, the current course of action isn't working. Thank You, Jeff Malloch System Administrator From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 15:15:54 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RN76L15828 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:07:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from yfandes.cs.wisc.edu (yfandes.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.162.24]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RN74C15824 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:07:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from yfandes.cs.wisc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by yfandes.cs.wisc.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA15622 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:07:04 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202272307.RAA15622@yfandes.cs.wisc.edu> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: USENIX Election Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:07:04 -0600 From: David Parter X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Several people have already commented on various things, and I'll try and give my comments. I think it is important, as several people have pointed out, to vote for the people you think will best serve USENIX. The Board is not a "representative" body, it is governing board. It needs a diversity of views, contacts, backgrounds, and talents. To the extent possible, all constiuencies need to be represented, but not necessarily in proportion to their membership numbers. Other members of the board will listen to those who are more "in touch" with the various communities, and then make a decision based on the information that they have been given. Some of us have friends or co-workers running for the board, and that can influence us in many ways. We know more about them (in social or work settings), and may therefore be loath to vote against them. We also may have strong (social or work-related) feelings about other candidates. Depending on what those feelings are based on, that may or may not be a reason to vote for or against someone. Again, the question is "who will serve USENIX best?" I was asked (at LISA) by more than one person for my "formula" for the ideal USENIX board (sometimes I was asked the more pointed question of "how many SAGE people should be on the board?"). Here's my formula: 2 academic researchers 2 non-academic researchers 1 non-researcher from the computer industry 1 or 2 sysadmins (or closely tied to the sysadmin community) 1 networking person 1 security person 1 BSD person 1 linux person 1 windows person 1 "ideas" person 1 or 2 people with strong business/finance/budget experience 1 or 2 "young" people 1 or 2 "experienced" people (there are some other diversity options too: country, gender, etc) in general, at least half the board should be carryover, at least one-quarter new so, that adds up to a lot more than 8 -- which means some people will wear more than one hat, and some hats won't be worn. Past nominating committees did not serve the organization well -- either by some of their nominations, or by the way they conducted their task. I think the current nominating committee did better -- they talked to a lot of members, considered the candidates carefully, and made a report that explains their concerns, without becoming a campaign comittee for their nominees. As for candidates endorsing other candidates: it makes sense to me. This is an unusual election, and not all the candidates are as well known as others. If you respect candidate X, and he or she has endorsed candidate Y, that is information that you can use in making your selections. The SAGE exec recently had some training in functioning as an effective board. Several interesting ideas came up, some of which apply directly here, some of which are just food for thought: A board member can not serve the organization, or be an effective board member, if his or her purpose in being on the board is to advance a pet project. A non-profit with a "career ladder" should get rid of it (deciding 8-years in advance that so-and-so should be president in 8 years, therefore he will be given task/office A this year, B next year, etc in progression). This doesn't work well, as 8 years from now, a different set of leadership skills may be needed, and the named candidate may have reasons to no longer be involved, etc. [NOTE: I don't think either USENIX or SAGE has a "career ladder", but there are some recognized "proving grounds", such as serving on a program comittee or doing some other special projects] Replace the "nominating committee" with a "leadership development committee", to identify potential leaders and give them training, not "career" channelling. OK, enough for now. I'm sure I'll have more to say later.... --david From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 15:17:49 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RN9Lv15891 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:09:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from hilfy.ece.cmu.edu (HILFY.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.136.133]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RN9JC15886 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:09:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net (root@VPN58.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.138.58]) by hilfy.ece.cmu.edu (8.11.0/8.8.8) with ESMTP id g1RN99T29463; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:09:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from allbery@localhost) by rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1RN98t58437; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:09:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from allbery@ece.cmu.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net: allbery set sender to allbery@ece.cmu.edu using -f Subject: Re: [SAGE] mkfs.ext2 fails even after fdisk From: "Brandon S. Allbery "KF8NH To: Dustin Puryear Cc: brluglist@brlug.net, lafix-discuss@lafix.org, sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <3c7d3a29.10767442@dpbox.dhs.org> References: <3c7d3a29.10767442@dpbox.dhs.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0.2 Date: 27 Feb 2002 18:09:08 -0500 Message-Id: <1014851348.53849.11.camel@rushlight.kf8nh.apk.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2002-02-27 at 15:00, Dustin Puryear wrote: > mke2fs 1.18, 11-Nov-1999 for EXT2 FS 0.5b, 95/08/09 > /dev/hda8: Invalid argument passed to ext2 library while setting up > superblock fdisk is reported to be broken; try using cfdisk or etc. -- brandon s. allbery [linux][solaris][japh][freebsd] allbery@kf8nh.apk.net system administrator [openafs][heimdal][too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering KF8NH carnegie mellon university ["better check the oblivious first" -ke6sls] From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 15:38:12 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1RNTI116396 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:29:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts14.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.35]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1RNTGC16388 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:29:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from crowsnesne8rna ([64.231.16.50]) by tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with SMTP id <20020227232915.GBNL21875.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@crowsnesne8rna>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:29:15 -0500 From: "Jeff & Heather" To: "Rob Kolstad" Cc: Subject: RE: [SAGE] Upcoming Election Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:29:46 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200202272310.g1RNAJ011195@ace.DELOS.COM> X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Rob, My point was not to flame anyone. I was only explaining what it looks like to the average member like myself. I was not aware of the of the fact that all you need is 5 signatures. That could be part of the problem too - misunderstanding. But by tone of your response, it certainly seems to re-enforces that fact that there is definitely some sort of struggle happening. I agree though that power-mongering was a little "strong". My appologies. I was just trying to support my opinion. To re-iterate - My opinion was that if there are differences between members and the Board then the lines of communication should be opened. By the way, I really enjoy MOTD... Regards, Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Rob Kolstad [mailto:kolstad@ace.DELOS.COM] Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 6:10 PM To: jmall@sympatico.ca Subject: Re: [SAGE] Upcoming Election Hey Jeff -- did you know that the only requirement for getting nominated is to get the signatures of five members? Kinda renders the "power-mongering" argument moot, doesn't it? RK [full disclosure: a member of this year's nominating committee] ==================================================================== /\ * Rob Kolstad http://www.delos.com * /\/ \ kolstad@delos.com 15235 Roller Coaster Road / \ \ +1 719-481-6542 Colorado Springs, CO 80921 ==================================================================== From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 16:33:43 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1S0Sh717876 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1S0SgI17871 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:28:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org (root@mail.reptiles.org [198.96.117.157]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1S0QCC17777 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:26:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.reptiles.org([198.96.117.157]) (1475 bytes) by mail.reptiles.org via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) id for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:27:03 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.114 2001-Aug-6 #10 built 2002-Jan-14) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:26:59 -0500 (EST) From: Cat Okita To: "Adam S. Moskowitz" cc: SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mike or Trey? (was Re: USENIX Election) In-Reply-To: <200202272059.PAA1338922@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20020227192605.P437-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Adam S. Moskowitz wrote: > So here we have two equally-well-known and (I believe) equally-well- > respected senior members of the organizations offering directly > conflicting recommendations for the office of Vice President. > > Andrew Hume says, "Trey is unsuitable"; Pat > Wilson says, "Mike is unsuitable"; both give what > appear to be sound reasons to support their positions. > > So what's a geek to do? It is my belief that Miss. Manners would suggest that one should either speak well of others, or not speak at all. cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 16:58:10 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1S0qsj18456 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.106.3.41] (tuvix.usenix.org [131.106.3.41]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1S0qpC18452; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:52:51 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: jel@mail.usenix.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20020227151122.A21551@postal.asicint.com> <4.3.1.2.20020228001644.05378a40@127.0.0.1> <20020227151122.A21551@postal.asicint.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:52:46 -0800 To: Lois Bennett , Kurt Robinson From: Jane-Ellen Long Subject: Re: [SAGE] SAGE/USENIX friction Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 5:26 PM -0500 2/27/02, Lois Bennett wrote: >Warning as of 5:20 pm EST the link to the 2001 archives points to the >2000 archives. The URL to the 2001 archives is >http://www.usenix.org/sage/sysadmins/sage-members-archive/2001/maillist.html > >I have notified the USENIX office and this will probably be fixed soon. > >Lois It was fixed at 2:21 Pacific time today. -- jane-ellen From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 18:30:03 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1S2JEr19701 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:19:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from out009.verizon.net (out009pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.131]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1S2JDC19697 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:19:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.13] ([151.203.65.63]) by out009.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020228021911.NQKH23533.out009.verizon.net@[10.0.1.13]> for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:19:11 -0600 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1309 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:19:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [SAGE] Re: USENIX Election From: Brian Silverio To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200202272307.RAA15622@yfandes.cs.wisc.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > I think it is important, as several people have pointed out, to vote for > the people you think will best serve USENIX. The Board is not a > "representative" body, it is governing board. There was a comment earlier about not having the worst aspects of democracy in USENIX. So, lets get this straight. I pay dues and vote for someone who can then ignore my wishes and tell me what to do? And someone thinks this is the best part of democracy in action? NOW I UNDERSTAND HOW TWO PEOPLE GOT REMOVED THAT THE MEMBERSHIP BELIEVES WERE DOING A GOOD JOB. Does the "governing" body wear rings they hold out for the governed to kiss? Excuse me while I run naked and screaming into the night.....(not a pretty picture) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 18:42:55 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1S2ZuD19826 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:35:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1S2ZtC19822 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:35:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from user-1120dar.dsl.mindspring.com ([66.32.53.91] helo=cosmo) by smtp6.mindspring.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gGQE-0006Xm-00 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:35:54 -0500 Message-ID: <000f01c1c001$0a1604c0$268efea9@cosmo> From: "\"Change James\" A. Yaple" To: References: <200202280033.g1S0Xjt17997@usenix.org> Subject: [SAGE] More Voting...Who is James Yaple? Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:38:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Congratulations to Peg on being the first to use the list for her shameless plug. I would claim that I had the exact same idea, as I am also nominated as a candidate for USENIX Director. However, the fact that my employer (American Express technologies) chose this exact moment to eliminate my position, has precluded responding until now. But that small problem may be familiar to SAGE members, many of whom may have had to encounter similar situations in the past year or so. I am "Change James", the "alternative" USENIX board candidate. My entry into the nomination process came thanks to the "alternative" nominating committee of Greg, Margo and Lynda (THANKS!). Like some others, my primary motivation was as a result of the USENIX/SAGE brouhaha. My goal is simple, to give members a choice. Not someone who's hooked in to the existing structure...I'm about as un-hooked as anyone could be. You can read my candidate statement in the materials, or visit my web site at http://home.mindspring.com/~euhura/index.html . I circulated a fairly aggressive candidate statement to some of the other nominees prior to sending it to USENIX. Some thought it was great, others thought it was too negative. As I count, there are eleven candidates for four USENIX director positions. If the votes go to the most involved, vocal or wired candidates, I probably will not be a USENIX Director this time around. But I can count on one vote...mine. Part of that is because this USENIX/SAGE thing was an embarassment to every member and I don't want it to happen again. And I won't be a part of it. If you agree, please vote for me. I would also encourage a vote for Trey (VP), Peg (director) and Adam(director). "Change James" A. Yaple From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 20:57:53 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1S4hu220799 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:43:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1S4huJ20794 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:43:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com (mail-blue.research.att.com [135.207.30.102]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1S4cYC20745 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:38:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.research.att.com (postal.research.att.com [135.207.23.30]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E52C64CE9D; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:38:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com ([135.207.39.165]) by postal.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA01697; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:34:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C7DB448.7010009@research.att.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:38:32 -0500 From: Andrew Hume User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pat Wilson Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] USENIX Election References: <200202271758.g1RHwd029977@noh.ucsd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk pat, thanks for correcting the html snafu. Pat Wilson wrote: >I feel that Mike Jones is unsuitable for Usenix Vice President >based on his past actions and apparent inability to accurately >recall details of who he's spoken to, and when. From all >accounts, Mike's complete and total misread of situation >and expectations seems to have precipitated the event that unjustly >removed Barb and Peg from the SAGE Exec last year. > past debates in this list have taught me the futility of arguing against strongly held positions, especially when facts seem to be of only modest importance. i do dissent from this interpretation, however. > > >I generally agree with Andrew that officers of the Board should >have Board experience; .... > this is not what i said. what i said was that it is quite important for the Vice President to have significant experience within the USENIX board. (it goes, i hope, without saying that the President needs this as well.) i can easily live with the treasurer and secretary being newbies (as long as the treasurer has good financial experience). -- Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and SAGE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 20:58:00 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1S4npx20852 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:49:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com (mail-blue.research.att.com [135.207.30.102]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1S4noC20847 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:49:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.research.att.com (postal.research.att.com [135.207.23.30]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 866F94CE9D for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:49:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com ([135.207.39.165]) by postal.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA01798 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:45:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C7DB6E9.8090100@research.att.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:49:45 -0500 From: Andrew Hume User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: sage-members-digest V2 #789 References: <200202280033.g1S0Xjt17997@usenix.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > > >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:21:05 +1100 >From: Greg Rose >Subject: Re: [SAGE] Ballot Issue > >At 02:58 AM 2/27/2002 -0700, Ruth Milner wrote: > >>I still have to wonder why there was any room for confusion. This is >>certainly not the first time there have been uncontested positions. >> > >No, but I think it is the first time people are seriously considering >trying to prevent someone being elected... > greg, this is a surprise to me. i had thought the discussion of the abstain box was due to teh confusion factor. i wasn't aware that there was a sentiment to not elect someone (kirk or lois, i gather). what leads you to believe this? >Greg. > -- Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and SAGE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 21:37:30 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1S5Tw621213 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:29:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com (mail-blue.research.att.com [135.207.30.102]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1S5TuC21209 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:29:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.research.att.com (postal.research.att.com [135.207.23.30]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D87234CE9D for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:29:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com ([135.207.39.165]) by postal.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA02281 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:26:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C7DC052.20009@research.att.com> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:29:54 -0500 From: Andrew Hume User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: sage-members-digest V2 #789 References: <200202280033.g1S0Xjt17997@usenix.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > > >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:53:30 -0500 >From: "Jeff & Heather" >Subject: [SAGE] Upcoming Election > >.... >I can understand that with any organization/corporation there has to be >some measure of direction and control. But, if the present Board wishes >to select the next Board based on its own opinions that is not >democratic in the least. I mean, why even bother with an electorate >when there is only one "nominated" President and Treasurer. As well, >the candidates are taking this "follow me" attitude in the Statements >brochure and recommending who you should vote for. This whole situation >stinks of power mongering and foreselection. As Mr. Geer put it, "We, >the USENIX membership, are lucky to have almost entirely escaped the >negatives of democracy..." I don't see a democracy be it negative or >positive. The Board chooses a nominating committee who in turn chooses >the Board. I get the feeling that as members who vote we are but >mindless sheep and the BOD (Board of Directors) is the shepherd. I wonder, >in the light of >recent events (ie. removal of two SAGE executives) how much more of a >strain this is placing on the relationship between USENIX/SAGE as well >as the profession as a whole. If we can't govern ourselves justly, how >can we even call ourselves a profession based upon the articles we are >setting out in the forum. > jeff, i believe much of what you say above is wrong, but i expect it is shared by quite a few people. so i wanted to say a little about the role of nominating committees (NCs). the purpose of teh USENIX Board NC is to ensure a quality slate of quality candidates. that is, we have a good list of people, and people are running for appropriate positions. the motivation for our NC is our collective organisational experience that generally, you need to persuade good folks to run for the election. understand that serving on the usenix board requires a measurable amount of time and travel commitment, and for teh kind of high-level people you'd want on a board, these are precious resources. given the difficulty of getting good people to run, our NC will normally only nominate one person per officer slot, but will normally offer significantly more candidates than positions for directors at large. by the way, the NC is normally formed by the Executive Director dragooning someone as chair, the usenix board concurring with that choice, and then the chair forms the committee as he or she sees fit. the notion that the current board 'selects' the next board is absurd. firstly, the board has no control over the NC -- it is an independent committee. secondly, the effort needed to get on the ballot (other than through the NC) is very small (just 5 members' signatures). thirdly, people have run for, and won, officer positions against the NC's candidate. fourthly, the members of teh NC are typically, and certainly in the current NC, highly respected members of our community who would never simply 'follow orders' from anyone (including the current BOD). although i have seen NCs in other organisations do a far more restrictive, and arguably far less democratic, process for producing candidates, i think the usenix model has worked well for a couple of decades and is more accessible to candidates (and hence more democratic) than nearly any other organisation i can think of. -- Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and SAGE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Wed Feb 27 23:14:41 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1S76vR22241 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:06:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from belial.infersys.com (infersys.com [66.51.209.144]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1S76tC22237 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:06:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from azazel.infersys.com (azazel.infersys.com [172.16.1.42]) by belial.infersys.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C1B41001BE; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:06:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by azazel.infersys.com (Postfix, from userid 10001) id 6B00210F801; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:06:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15485.55030.126910.563153@azazel.infersys.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:06:30 -0800 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Motivations In-Reply-To: <3C7DB6E9.8090100@research.att.com> References: <200202280033.g1S0Xjt17997@usenix.org> <3C7DB6E9.8090100@research.att.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.00 under 21.4 (patch 6) "Common Lisp" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smith X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk GR == Greg Rose AH == Andrew Hume GR> No, but I think it is the first time people are seriously considering GR> trying to prevent someone being elected... AH> greg, this is a surprise to me. i had thought the discussion of the AH> abstain box was due to teh confusion factor. i wasn't aware that there AH> was a sentiment to not elect someone (kirk or lois, i gather). what AH> leads you to believe this? I don't know for sure what leads Greg to believe this, but I came to the same conclusion based on the original question. What other reason would someone have to warn STOP do not send in your Usenix Ballot just yet. and suggest that returning a ballot with "abstain" checked might mean your vote does not count and you are lowering the number of Yes votes needed for someone or something to win. If this is the case with USENIX then by voting abstain we are not voting against someone if we do not want them in the office, but in fact lowering the number of yes votes needed. to win. other than a desire to prevent someone from being elected? Perhaps Joel Natt (who asked the original question) can clarify his intention, ideally without offending Miss Manners (which I agree is a worthy goal in polite society, which I hope this forum remains (mostly)). My personal interest in this is mainly because it piques my playtester / rules-lawyer streak; I like to bang on games to see what happens if you take the rules literally, or look for holes in them, and while this is a bit more serious than your average game, the "poke at the rules" appeal is still there. I also have some passing familiarity with a generally friendly organization that lacked clear voting rules for its elections, which didn't cause any problems until an election became hotly contested... (Hi, Melissa, Chaos, et al!) The fact that USENIX's voting rules are vague -- it really doesn't seem to be defined *anywhere* what it means to return a ballot with "abstain" checked, or what the effect of doing so will be -- brings back unpleasant echoes of that experience (and I was only very peripherally involved). (That informality also seems a lot more surprising in the context of an organization with a multi-million dollar budget than it did in the context of a college science fiction club... Maybe the newly elected board can make sure to clarify exactly how votes will be counted for the next election?) -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 28 00:41:48 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1S8Vbe22911 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:31:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.76.82]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1S8VZC22907 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:31:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAVAJO.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.76.82]) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/1.0) with ESMTP id g1S8VOCk015383; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:31:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20020228182007.051acd40@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: ggr2@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:26:21 +1100 To: Andrew Hume From: Greg Rose Subject: Re: [SAGE] Re: sage-members-digest V2 #789 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <3C7DB6E9.8090100@research.att.com> References: <200202280033.g1S0Xjt17997@usenix.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 11:49 PM 2/27/2002 -0500, Andrew Hume wrote: >>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:21:05 +1100 >>From: Greg Rose >>No, but I think it is the first time people are seriously considering >>trying to prevent someone being elected... > greg, this is a surprise to me. i had thought the discussion of the >abstain box was due to teh confusion factor. i wasn't aware that >there was a sentiment to not elect someone (kirk or lois, i gather). >what leads you to believe this? Perhaps my words were too strong; I think this is the first time people have cared so much about the mechanics of the election, and the possibility of wanting to vote "against" someone. I'm surprised that you're surprised. BTW, I got my impression of the meaning of the "abstain" box from ex-pres Steve Johnson, and Executive Director Ellie Young, back when ... no, I choose not to go there. I await eagerly the result of your query. Greg. Greg Rose INTERNET: ggr@qualcomm.com Qualcomm Australia VOICE: +61-2-9817 4188 FAX: +61-2-9817 5199 Level 3, 230 Victoria Road, http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ Gladesville NSW 2111 232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 28 01:13:05 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1S95dS23183 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 01:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1S95b023178 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 01:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.tivoli.com (smtp2.tivoli.com [216.140.178.3]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g1S6tnC22103 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:55:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 7828 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 06:55:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO corp.tivoli.com) (216.140.178.60) by smtp2.tivoli.com with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 06:55:21 -0000 Received: from sten.sten.org (IDENT:root@sten.austin.ibm.com [9.41.132.82]) by corp.tivoli.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id AAA10299; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:55:13 -0600 (CST) Received: (from stend@localhost) by sten.sten.org (8.11.2/8.11.2/sten-1.0) id g1S6tDx21535; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:55:13 -0600 To: Cat Okita Cc: "Adam S. Moskowitz" , SAGE Members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mike or Trey? (was Re: USENIX Election) References: <20020227192605.P437-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> X-Copyright: Copyright 2002 by Sten Drescher. Permission is granted to transmit this message via electronic mail and/or Usenet. All other use is strictly prohibited without the written consent of the author. From: Sten Date: 28 Feb 2002 00:55:13 -0600 In-Reply-To: Cat Okita's message of "Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:26:59 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 21 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Cat Okita writes: > It is my belief that Miss. Manners would suggest that one should either > speak well of others, or not speak at all. If you have substantive reasons for believing that someone is unfit for a position, and you refrain from speaking of it because you would not be speaking well of the person, then you become complicit in the failure should the person turn out, in fact, to be unfit for the position they obtained. Both Andrew Hume and Pat Wilson have substantive reasons for believing that Trey Harris and Michael Jones, respectively, are not fit for the position of USENIX Vice President, and communicating those concerns was the appropriate thing to do. Sten -- With Americans wondering just what to do, your House wants to set an example for you. When challenged by terror, when challenged by fear, paint your rear white and run with the deer. -- Ben Sargent From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 28 02:45:29 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1SAZ9m23984 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 02:35:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from gate.dab.com ([194.15.145.24]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1SAZ7C23980 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 02:35:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by gate.dab.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06884 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:35:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from fw-inhouse-lan(172.30.14.4), claiming to be "fw-inhouse-4" via SMTP by fw-inhouse-lan, id smtpdAAAiDa4An; Thu Feb 28 11:34:07 2002 Received: from idefix.rtfs.de (krabbtop.int.diraba.de [172.30.22.59]) by dab-ms01.int.diraba.de with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id FV8VA2X5; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:34:06 +0100 Received: from krabbtop.int.diraba.de (bb@localhost.muc.diraba.de [127.0.0.1]) by idefix.rtfs.de (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1SAXAqF003801 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 02:33:10 -0800 Received: (from bb@localhost) by krabbtop.int.diraba.de (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) id g1SAX9cc003799 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:33:09 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: krabbtop.int.diraba.de: bb set sender to gabriel.krabbe@dab.com using -f Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:33:09 +0100 From: Gabriel Krabbe To: SAGE members Subject: Re: [SAGE] Re: USENIX Election Message-ID: <20020228113309.D2013@idefix.int.diraba.de> Mail-Followup-To: SAGE members References: <200202272307.RAA15622@yfandes.cs.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: rtfs IT Services X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 09:19:19PM -0500, Brian Silverio wrote: > >> I think it is important, as several people have pointed out, to vote for >> the people you think will best serve USENIX. The Board is not a >> "representative" body, it is governing board. > > There was a comment earlier about not having the worst aspects of democracy > in USENIX. So, lets get this straight. I pay dues and vote for someone who > can then ignore my wishes and tell me what to do? And someone thinks this > is the best part of democracy in action? > > NOW I UNDERSTAND HOW TWO PEOPLE GOT REMOVED THAT THE MEMBERSHIP BELIEVES > WERE DOING A GOOD JOB. > > Does the "governing" body wear rings they hold out for the governed to kiss? > > Excuse me while I run naked and screaming into the night.....(not a pretty > picture) Indeed not, certainly if done for the wrong reasons. A "governing body" is a group which makes decisions that are binding. In this case, for example, it's signing contracts with conference hotels. The hotel must then be paid for, by Usenix, and there's nothing the members can do about it. A representative body would be, for example, the British queen or the German president - both have (practically) no decision-making powers, and are purely there for the representative value. Their signature may be required on certain issues (every law passed by the German Parliament must be signed by the president before being in effect, but it's a technicality: the president can't not sign it). The SAGE exec is also a governing body. Decisions are made by it that are then binding (though the Usenix board has what amounts to veto power in most cases, their approval is de facto usually a technicality). Since both board and exec are governing bodies, it's more important to vote for people who you think will make sensible decisions, and less important to have people who look good in jeans or have a name that's famous. The latter is a perfectly reasonable secondary priority, but if, say, a potential treasurer wears cool t-shirts and can decode IP packets in his head from looking at the raw ethernet frames, but lives at home and has his parents manage his entire income, and has no fiduciary responsibilities at work, then he's the wrong person for that position. That, I believe, was David's point. Gabe, speaking for himself. -- If I were you, who'd be me? From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 28 05:14:00 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1SD5td25044 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:05:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-green.research.att.com (H-135-207-30-103.research.att.com [135.207.30.103]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1SD5sC25040 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:05:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.research.att.com (postal.research.att.com [135.207.23.30]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 552C41E11A for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:05:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com ([135.207.39.165]) by postal.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07529 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:02:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C7E2B30.1020004@research.att.com> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:05:52 -0500 From: Andrew Hume User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: sage-members-digest V2 #790 References: <200202281000.g1SA01v23688@usenix.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk folks, perhaps it is too late, but i take exception to my comments about trey being treated as the same as pat's comments about mike. my comments about trey reflected a simple inconsistency between a requirement (as i see it) for teh position of vice president and fairly clear factual aspects of trey's service with usenix governance. pat's comments about mike seem more about her thoughts about, and interpretations of, a complicated and fuzzily reported event. perhaps this distinction is a little fine (although it seems clear to me), but i think it matters. i hate the mudslinging aspect of politics, and i think pat's comments stray too close towards that end of teh spectrum. i would rather there be comments about the positive things candidates bring to the election (i think this is the spirit of what cat okita said), such as analyses of the candidates' statements. -- Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and SAGE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 28 08:16:20 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1SGAF226665 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:10:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from wally.eecs.harvard.edu (wally.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.30]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1SGADC26659 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from peg@localhost) by wally.eecs.harvard.edu (8.10.0/8.10.0) id g1SGADW31344; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:10:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:10:13 -0500 (EST) From: Peg Schafer Message-Id: <200202281610.g1SGADW31344@wally.eecs.harvard.edu> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Vote for Trey Harris! Cc: peg@eecs.harvard.edu X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I urge you all to vote for Trey Harris! Working with Trey on the SAGE board I was very impressed with Trey. His articulate, well reasoned, view points are an asset. He has *_excellent_* qualifications for the USENIX board! To the frequent reader of this list, Trey's many excellent postings speak for themselves. We have benefited from Trey's many, many hours of service to this community. You just can't go wrong voting for Trey. Happy Hacking ;-) --Peg Schafer Full disclaimer: Even if you don't vote for me, vote for him! From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 28 09:13:22 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1SH89k27320 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:08:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from ghalprin.istop.com (IDENT:qmailr@ghalprin.istop.com [216.187.107.159]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id g1SH87C27316 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 32401 invoked by uid 5001); 28 Feb 2002 17:09:54 -0000 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:09:54 -0500 From: Geoff Halprin To: David Parter Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Re: USENIX Election Message-ID: <20020228120954.U2240@sysadmin.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Geoff Halprin , David Parter , sage-members@usenix.org References: <200202272307.RAA15622@yfandes.cs.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200202272307.RAA15622@yfandes.cs.wisc.edu>; from dparter@cs.wisc.edu on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 05:07:04PM -0600 Organization: The SysAdmin Group Pty Ltd X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 05:07:04PM -0600, David Parter wrote: [...] > I think it is important, as several people have pointed out, to vote for > the people you think will best serve USENIX. The Board is not a > "representative" body, it is governing board. I am disappointed to see this comment taken the wrong way. I believe I understand what David intended, so let me try to explain... A representative body seeks to achieve _proportional_ representation of all major constituencies. For USENIX to do this, it should have more than half its board made up of SAGE members. There is some strange (to me) underlying logic that states you must be proportional in order to correctly represent the needs of those constituencies. To me, that's a bunch of crap, used by minority interests to attempt to get people from their own group elected. It's relevant in political machines where everyone is feathering their own nests, but not in meritocracies where leadership seeks to understand and grow an organisation. Perhaps the events of November would have been avoided with a different board make-up. In fact, almost certainly. But I do not necessarily believe that proportional representation of SAGE on the USENIX board is a key to sorting out this mess. Whether proportional or not, USENIX and SAGE are governing bodies. This means that it is the _duty_ of each board member to seek to understand what is in the best interests of the organisation, and to attempt to achieve those outcomes. This usually means implementing programs that directly benefit the members, and so being well tapped into the sentiment of the membership. It also occasionally means making decisions that run counter to general opinion. Now, at this point, I must re-state my position on the (still recent) debacle. I believe that the actions of the USENIX board in removing two SAGE officers was unconscionable. Whilst I do not believe any member of the USENIX board acted out of malice, and all acted in what they believed to be in the best interests of both USENIX and SAGE, I believe their actions were poorly thought out, poorly executed, to the detriment of both organisations, and reflect poorly on the USENIX board and its members. I believe this example of their practical ability to lead USENIX through a difficult time speaks volumes for their candidacy (or legacy). When selecting candidates, I would urge people to vote for those people who they believe will best lead USENIX, the Advanced Technical Computing Association, including repairing and growing the relationship with SAGE, its single largest constituency. That does not dictate they be SAGE members, only that they understand what it is to be a board member and to exercise due diligence and display wisdom and leadership in their decision making. Warm regards, Geoff -- Geoff Halprin, Principal Consultant geoff@sysadmin.com.au The SysAdmin Group http://www.sysadmin.com.au -- Member, The System Administrators Guild http://www.sage.org From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 28 10:16:01 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1SIATq28582 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:10:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from belial.infersys.com (infersys.com [66.51.209.144]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1SIARC28577 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:10:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from azazel.infersys.com (azazel.infersys.com [172.16.1.42]) by belial.infersys.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30DE81001B5; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:10:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by azazel.infersys.com (Postfix, from userid 10001) id BCA6A10F801; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:09:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <15486.29300.438931.145777@azazel.infersys.com> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:09:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Vote for Trey Harris! In-Reply-To: <200202281610.g1SGADW31344@wally.eecs.harvard.edu> References: <200202281610.g1SGADW31344@wally.eecs.harvard.edu> X-Mailer: VM 7.00 under 21.4 (patch 6) "Common Lisp" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smith X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk PS == Peg Schafer PS> I urge you all to vote for Trey Harris! I think Andrew made a good point about Board experience being useful in a Vice President. Trey, could you (or one of your enthusiastic supporters :^) comment on why you think your lack of USENIX Board experience wouldn't be a problem if you were elected VP? Your candidate statement explains why you think you would make a good Board member, but it doesn't address this specific point, which was brought up here. -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 28 10:25:20 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1SIKa128720 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:20:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from motgate4.mot.com (motgate4.mot.com [144.189.100.102]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1SIKYC28709 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:20:34 -0800 (PST) Received: [from pobox2.mot.com (pobox2.mot.com [136.182.15.8]) by motgate4.mot.com (motgate4 2.1) with ESMTP id LAA22086 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:20:33 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from plnt056.comm.mot.com (plnt056.comm.mot.com [145.2.198.83]) by pobox2.mot.com (MOT-pobox2 2.0) with ESMTP id LAA07323 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:20:33 -0700 (MST)] Received: by plnt056.comm.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.52) id <14FZP8CG>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:20:32 -0500 Message-ID: From: Natt Joel-EJN018 To: "'Josh Smith'" , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: RE: [SAGE] Motivations Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:20:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.52) Content-Type: text/plain X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk As this whole string started with me and appears to be centered on an item I raised, I guess I need to clarify it a little. If an organization runs by parliamentary law (i.e. Roberts Rules) and does not define a voting procedure (i.e. Abstain is a nay vote) then when a candidate runs un apposed abstain means do not count my vote towards the total. Yes both the President and Secretary of USENIX will be elected even if they get 1 vote simply because it is a plurality that wins and they are unopposed. But the option to vote against the person by other means needs to be provided according to Roberts. Hence all I wanted to do was make everyone aware that abstain does not equal a no vote, but simply lowers the total number of votes needed to win that position. I hope this clarifies the original message some. With Respects, Joel E. Natt Enterprise Computing - Network Group Network Infrastructure Team (NIT) Member Wireless Subcommittee Office: (954) 723-4596 Fax: (954) 723-4753 iDEN: 4596 Pager: 877-681-8970 Email: ejn018@motorola.com "Through the Air, Over the 100BaseTx, thru the Switch/Router, off the bridge, past the firewall, over the leased line...nothing but net" "THE VIEWS AND OPINIONS EXPRESSED HERE ARE THOSE OF THE AUTHOR AND HAVE NO BEARING ON OR REFLECT THE OPINIONS OF MOTOROLA, INC. OR ANY OF IT SUBSIDIARIES" -----Original Message----- From: Josh Smith [mailto:irilyth@infersys.com] Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:07 AM To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Motivations GR == Greg Rose AH == Andrew Hume GR> No, but I think it is the first time people are seriously considering GR> trying to prevent someone being elected... AH> greg, this is a surprise to me. i had thought the discussion of the AH> abstain box was due to teh confusion factor. i wasn't aware that there AH> was a sentiment to not elect someone (kirk or lois, i gather). what AH> leads you to believe this? I don't know for sure what leads Greg to believe this, but I came to the same conclusion based on the original question. What other reason would someone have to warn STOP do not send in your Usenix Ballot just yet. and suggest that returning a ballot with "abstain" checked might mean your vote does not count and you are lowering the number of Yes votes needed for someone or something to win. If this is the case with USENIX then by voting abstain we are not voting against someone if we do not want them in the office, but in fact lowering the number of yes votes needed. to win. other than a desire to prevent someone from being elected? Perhaps Joel Natt (who asked the original question) can clarify his intention, ideally without offending Miss Manners (which I agree is a worthy goal in polite society, which I hope this forum remains (mostly)). My personal interest in this is mainly because it piques my playtester / rules-lawyer streak; I like to bang on games to see what happens if you take the rules literally, or look for holes in them, and while this is a bit more serious than your average game, the "poke at the rules" appeal is still there. I also have some passing familiarity with a generally friendly organization that lacked clear voting rules for its elections, which didn't cause any problems until an election became hotly contested... (Hi, Melissa, Chaos, et al!) The fact that USENIX's voting rules are vague -- it really doesn't seem to be defined *anywhere* what it means to return a ballot with "abstain" checked, or what the effect of doing so will be -- brings back unpleasant echoes of that experience (and I was only very peripherally involved). (That informality also seems a lot more surprising in the context of an organization with a multi-million dollar budget than it did in the context of a college science fiction club... Maybe the newly elected board can make sure to clarify exactly how votes will be counted for the next election?) -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 28 10:32:44 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1SIRuB28869 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:27:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from belial.infersys.com (infersys.com [66.51.209.144]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1SIRtC28865 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:27:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from azazel.infersys.com (azazel.infersys.com [172.16.1.42]) by belial.infersys.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A29E91001BD; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:27:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by azazel.infersys.com (Postfix, from userid 10001) id 618D210F801; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:27:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15486.30348.489824.260953@azazel.infersys.com> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:27:24 -0800 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Vote for Peg Schafer! In-Reply-To: <15486.29300.438931.145777@azazel.infersys.com> References: <200202281610.g1SGADW31344@wally.eecs.harvard.edu> <15486.29300.438931.145777@azazel.infersys.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.00 under 21.4 (patch 6) "Common Lisp" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smith X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Peg: Along similar lines to my question to Trey, I'd like to invite you to address a specific issue that some might see as a reason not to vote for you. It seems safe to say that you've had some clashes with the current members of the USENIX Board, many of whom are running for re-election again. If many of those members are re-elected, and you are also elected, what do you think will become of those conflicts? Will y'all be able to resolve those issues, or at least look past them, and work together to advance USENIX's mission? -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 28 11:46:06 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1SJdNX00055 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:39:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from wayne.ucns.uga.edu (wayne.ucns.uga.edu [128.192.6.54]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1SJdLC00049 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:39:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (steve@localhost) by wayne.ucns.uga.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1SJcAf17506 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:38:10 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:38:10 -0500 (EST) From: "Steve G. Hilliard" X-X-Sender: steve@wayne.ucns.uga.edu To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Sendmail SAMS Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk It seems that Sendmail's SAMS and Mirapoint's systems are under consideration here for an enterprise mail solution. As I mentioned before, we've been running their Sendmail's webmail product since before they bought it from Mailspinner, but I'd love to hear off-line from anyone with field experience with SAMS (with or without SMMS) and with any of the Mirapoint offerings, particularly the MD300. Especially looking for your views on performance under load--we're running about 500k emails/day. And thanks for all your emails re: the SAGE/USENIX flap-sorry if I re-opened old wounds. I've been reading the archives for hours--quite a shame, for both organizations. Best of luck to all the candidates, Steve -- ------------------------------------------------------ Steve G. Hilliard "........to administer, divine" Production Systems Administration Support Enterprise Information Technology Services University of Georgia From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 28 11:52:13 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1SJjYd00183 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:45:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from trickle.cc.mcgill.ca (trickle.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.27.51]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1SJjSC00179 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:45:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from rna.mcgill.ca (rna.McGill.CA [132.206.27.47]) by trickle.cc.mcgill.ca (8.12.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g1SJjQvC012987 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:45:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from guiness.CC.McGill.CA (guiness.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.35.24]) by rna.mcgill.ca (8.12.0/8.12.0) with ESMTP id g1SJjQu9028755 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:45:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:45:00 -0500 (EST) From: Ron Hall To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] VOTE VOTE VOTE Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Howdy! I see the political "stumping" (or stomping I suppose) is in full swing. I personally find it somewhat annoying to be "conflicted" with the SAGE equivalent of "Tastes Great"/ "Less Filling" [ If you don't understand the reference ask your father :) ] I would have preferred that the candidates put up web pages and say "Here I am. This is what I stand for. Make a choice. Thanks for voting." The pitter-patter of little e-mails trundling across my virtual world is often too much for even the patient of saints. I wish all the candidates well and may the best candidate win. Given the tone-of-prose as of late the job will be akin to waiting tables on skates, in Nepal with glasses of nitroglycerine and there is an earthquake. HTH As Always r From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 28 14:43:29 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1SMR9c02594 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:27:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls2.std.com [199.172.62.104]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1SMR8C02590 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:27:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell.TheWorld.com (root@shell01.TheWorld.com [199.172.62.241]) by TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA30082 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:17:01 -0500 Received: (from adamm@localhost) by shell.TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA1524988 for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:17:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202282217.RAA1524988@shell.TheWorld.com> Subject: Re: [SAGE] Motivations To: sage-members@usenix.org (SAGE Members) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:17:00 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Natt Joel-EJN018" at Feb 28, 2002 01:20:29 PM From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:20:29 -0500, Natt Joel-EJN018 wrote: > If an organization runs by parliamentary law (i.e. Roberts Rules) Robert's Rules of Order DO NOT APPLY to electing the parliament; rather, they govern the making of and voting on MOTIONS while the parliament is in session. The only elections mentioned in RROO -- at least that I can find after three readings -- are those where the parliament (NOT the constituents they represent) is electing an officer or head of a committee. RROO is a rather dense document, and reading it tends to cross my eyes. If someone can show where I am wrong with respect to RROO and elections, please be so kind as to supply Part, Article, and Paragraph, so I don't have to read the whole thing a fourth time. :-) Never having attended a USENIX Board meeting, I can't say if we run by Robert's Rules or not. HOWEVER, I can not find anything in either the by-laws or policies that says we have to. > does not define a voting procedure (i.e. Abstain is a nay vote) A voting procedure IS defined -- but it doesn't cover the exact form of the ballot, nor does it address this specific question. Then again, neither have the other five or six sets of by-laws I've read and/or drafted addressed this issue (for better or worse). > when a candidate runs un apposed abstain means do not count my vote towards > the total. What "abstain" means is yet to be determined. There are, no doubt, several strong opinions on what it SHOULD mean. > the option to vote against the person by other means needs to be provided > according to Roberts. I do not believe that organizations are obligated to provide a means to vote against unopposed candidates. > all I wanted to do was make everyone aware that abstain does not equal a > no vote, but simply lowers the total number of votes needed to win that > position. We don't know this -- not yet, at least. AdamM From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 28 14:44:41 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1SMU7b02620 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from wally.eecs.harvard.edu (wally.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.30]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1SMU5C02616 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:30:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (trey@localhost) by wally.eecs.harvard.edu (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id g1SMU4O31217 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:30:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:30:04 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Vote for Trey Harris! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Josh, I'm going to respond soon. I had some oral surgery a couple days ago and I've been on Vicodin, so on the theory that you shouldn't be root when you're drunk, I figure I shouldn't post a message to thousands of people on a potentially contentious topic when I'm on painkillers, either. (Then again, maybe that would be the best time... :-) Thanks for your question, though. It will be answered, certainly by the end of the weekend. Trey -- Trey Harris Secretary and Executive SAGE -- The System Administrators Guild (www.sage.org) Opinions above are not necessarily those of SAGE. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 28 15:55:34 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g1SNllo03661 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:47:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from clyde.its.caltech.edu (clyde.its.caltech.edu [131.215.48.174]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1SNlkC03655 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:47:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (sigje@localhost) by clyde.its.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA09679 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:47:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: clyde.its.caltech.edu: sigje owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:47:44 -0800 (PST) From: Jennifer Davis X-X-Sender: sigje@clyde To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Voting.. ?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Wow. There are quite a few of us SAGE/USENIX members here at Caltech on the same floor (some of us even joining in the current debate, Hiya Josh :), and we are seeing this daily flurry of messages about the most current issues facing us, the elections for the USENIX board. Some of us are getting really fed up by the entire mess. Yes. Some bad decisions were made by various people. People make mistakes. Sometimes they don't care to learn from their mistakes. People get hurt by those mistakes. Personally, I don't want to see emotional fallout on this list because of these mistakes. If you have a problem with someone, or you don't like them either take it up with them, or leave it alone. Don't bring it to the list. Yes, I would love to know more about why I should or shouldn't vote for a specific person but that opinion should be backed by factual data that lets me decide for myself what my opinion is. Generally, most members either don't know about this mailing list, aren't subscribed to this mailing list because they don't want to hear all of the crap being tossed about, or are just listening with ever widening disbelief. How many members does Usenix have? How many are subscribed to this list? How many actually are commenting about things? Before you send out an email, do you actually think about how many people are going to read that email? It's not just the small crowd that actually comment/reply. Maybe the people who want to have mud flinging contests could do this on a board provided on the Usenix site? Also, please do not put advertising for your candidacy through this address either. I have read what's available from the candidate's statements, and if you had more to say, you could always include a web site link. Personally, I do go and look at the information people provide. Finally, I just find it rather odd that people up for the elections are giving suggestions to who they would advise people to vote for. In your statement, it should contain information about why we should vote for you. On your personal website maybe you can include advertising for why you would vote for someone else. Because of this some of the current statements, leave me with a really bad feeling. So, my request is this. Can we please recover some of our professionalism? Take a step back from all the heated Usenix/Sage bits, and focus on the real issues? ( Does anyone actually remember what those are? :) As a side note, I sent out a request regarding Sysadmin magazine to this list with my comments about the beta exam, and was told to mail usenix directly. I did, and never received a reply. Anyone have any further ideas? -- Jennifer Davis | Unix System Administrator | California Institute of Technology | _____________________________________ From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 28 19:07:52 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g212xhJ06528 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:59:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from frogbog.baltimorons.org (IDENT:root@leapfrog.baltimorons.org [216.181.177.189]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g212xgC06524 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:59:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jon@localhost) by frogbog.baltimorons.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g212xmj11856; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:59:48 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:59:48 -0500 From: "J. Lasser" To: Old Bay SAGE Subject: [SAGE] Old Bay SAGE Meeting ***TWO WEEKS*** Tuesday, March 12th Message-ID: <20020301025947.GC11408@frogbog.baltimorons.org> Mail-Followup-To: Old Bay SAGE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="s9fJI615cBHmzTOP" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --s9fJI615cBHmzTOP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tuesday, March 12, 2002. Time: Doors open at 7:15 pm; meeting begins 8:00 pm sharp. Place: 3500 Boston Street, Suite 226, Baltimore MD 21202 (AmNet Computer Systems). See below for directions. RSVP: Helpful, but not mandatory. Please mail me at if you expect to attend the meeting. Agenda: 1. Round-the-table introductions 2. The resume exchange: Who's hiring/who's looking for work? Bring resumes if you're looking for work; bring business cards or job ads if you're hiring. 3. Guest Speakers: Rob Banz of UMBC will present "LDAP, Directories, Middleware, and More Acronyms Than You Can Shake A Stick At." You've heard of LDAP and XML. Well, how about OASIS, ADPr, SAML, UDDI, DXML? Just as we were getting our enterprises together -- beginning to build our identity/entity managment systems around a common access protocol (like LDAP). We found that the idea of driving our UNIX account access from our directory was mighty neat! We probably even rolled out a web-based single-sign on system for use without our organization, finally putting a dent in all of those HTTP Basic-Auth requests, not to mention the clear text passwords we were all sending. Well, some folks -- both in the commercial and educational space -- were thinking a few steps ahead of us. We'll talk about the things that made our lives easier over the past few years, and explore the growing space that is before us of Inter-Realm e-provisioning, application authorization, and resource discovery. ...and while you expect to see the usual "big" players in this space, what you won't expect is: it's all about interoperability and open standards for a change. Robert Banz has been a UNIX system administrator and developer since 1992. He is currently employed by UMBC managing the Core UNIX/NT Systems Group, responsible a big chunk of the Campus IT Architecture, and Internet2, working with the MACE-Dir working group. 4. Adjournment to local resturaunt/bar: Since Canton is just about shut down on a Tuesday night, as we discovered after the January meeting, we will be moving to the Brewer's Art, at 1106 N. Charles St. (This is something of a hike, admittedly, but is currently the will of the group.) DIRECTIONS to AmNet: The entrance for 3500 Boston Street is on the side of the building, on Baylis Street. There is a call box; if there is no note on the door and it is not open, call up to AmNet and somebody will ring you in. Make a right when entering the building, stairs are on the left after you go through the door. AmNet is on the second floor, to the left after the stairs. =46rom NORTH or SOUTH via I-95: =20 Take I-95 towards Baltimore. Take Boston St. (Exit 57, north of the tunnel). Head west (left on the ramp) on Boston Street approximately 3/4 of a mile. Turn right onto Baylis Street and park. =46rom the NORTH via I-83: Take I-83 south towards Baltimore. I-83 ends on President Street. Make a left onto Fleet Street. Past Fell's Point, make a right onto Boston Street. Follow Boston Street to Baylis, make a left onto Baylis, and park. To The Brewer's Art from AmNet: Head West (away from 95) on Boston St, making the left at Fleet St. Remain on Fleet St. through Fell's Point until it ends at President St. Make a right onto President St., which will turn into 83 N. Take the first exit, at Chase St., and make a left at the top of the ramp. Charles St. is the fourth cross-street, and the Brewer's Art is several doors up, on the left side of the street. --=20 Jon Lasser=09 Home: jon@lasser.org | Work:jon@cluestickconsulting.com http://www.tux.org/~lasser/ | http://www.cluestickconsulting.com Buy my book, _Think_Unix_! http://www.tux.org/~lasser/think-unix/ --s9fJI615cBHmzTOP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQCVAwUBPH7uoysJJQQiCQ0lAQE5zAQAxIlVVE8GpyHlhUYW4LZvVb387vn4J59X zlG6GELbLGVONjt+TGXCK7cyhFHrSvDH0+7GgOurOhnjgHrclK9W6WZvqk0AZRGb iCIQmBt/zWYIt8GMTkC7D59xeU8le3J57Qf9SE1UxyVyPw1LcjbpM4GZPG52ahdk x7uQ9tQXs0E= =U3TJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --s9fJI615cBHmzTOP-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 28 21:18:10 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g2159IP07576 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:09:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-green.research.att.com (H-135-207-30-103.research.att.com [135.207.30.103]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g21593C07570; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:09:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.research.att.com (postal.research.att.com [135.207.23.30]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC46B1E03B; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 00:09:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com ([135.207.39.165]) by postal.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA00079; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 00:05:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C7F0CED.8060706@research.att.com> Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 00:09:01 -0500 From: Andrew Hume User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bod@usenix.org Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] ballot interpretation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk questions have been raised recently about how to interpret certain votes in teh current USENIX BOD ballot, namely the nettlesome 'abstain' votes for president and treasurer. this note is meant as a comprehensive reply, even if it isn't quite definitive. the issue is simple: article 7.2 of teh Bylaws states in part "The officers and directors shall be elected by a plurality of the votes cast." pretend that candidate X is running unopposed for President and X gets 20 votes and 'Abstain' gets 100 votes. is X elected? below i give some different answers and justifications, and some pertinent facts. a) yes, by dictionary meaning. in the dictionary, abstain means 'to deliverately refrain from casting one's vote'. in the absence of specific provisions to teh contrary, votes should be interpreted at their face value; and abstain means 'a vote was not cast', and not 'a no vote was cast'. thus, X got 20 votes in favour, and 100 chose not to vote. therefore, X is elected. b) no, by dictionary meaning. the vote is between two alternatives (X and abstain) and as plurality means 'majority', the abstain alternative wins, and thus, X loses and is not elected. (note that this argument conveniently ignores the meaning of abstain.) c) yes, according to the counters. the USENIX ballots are counted by CPAs. they will report the number of abstain votes, but as long as any unopposed candidate received at least one vote in favour, they are elected. thus, X is elected. d) yes, according to counsel. appelman (the USENIX counsel) points out that common definitions of plurality only apply to contested elections. in email to me, he said "Where a candidate is running unopposed, the plurality requirement is irrelevant, and even a single "yes" vote is enough to elect that candidate in the absence of a bylaw or other policy specifically addressing the situation." e) the abstain box appeared on this ballot because the auditors had told the staff it was a requirement, but this turned out to be not the case. there is no known rule or regulation that requires this choice be present. f) absent specific provisions in the bylaws or policies document, the USENIX BOD is responsible for ruling on how to interpret the Abstain votes. g) everyone i've queried in this matter agrees that the bylaws or policies document should be tweaked to make clearer how to interpret the ballot. the USENIX BOD is responsible for doing this. RECOMMENDATIONS A) the USENIX BOD amend its Policies Document to specify what choices appear on the election ballot, and how those choices will be interpreted for the purposes of electing directors and officers. i would suggest that for each of teh five categories (pres, vp, sec, treas, dir at large), the candidates and 'Abstain' be presented. for the purposes of determining who is elected, the Abstain vote shall be ignored. the Abstain votes can be used to assess the quality of candidates offered in each category. in any case, whatever changes are deemed advisable should be made in time for the next election, and not be applied in the middle of this election. B) the current election should proceed as it would have had this issue not been raised by ignoring the 'abstain' votes, primarily by c), and supported by a) and d). -- Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and SAGE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 28 23:05:44 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g2170HN11910 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:00:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from belial.infersys.com (infersys.com [66.51.209.144]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g21703C11905; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:00:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from azazel.infersys.com (azazel.infersys.com [172.16.1.42]) by belial.infersys.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9DBD1001B5; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:59:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by azazel.infersys.com (Postfix, from userid 10001) id 388BA10F801; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:59:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <15487.9936.10826.361132@azazel.infersys.com> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:59:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Andrew Hume Cc: bod@usenix.org, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] ballot interpretation In-Reply-To: <3C7F0CED.8060706@research.att.com> References: <3C7F0CED.8060706@research.att.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.00 under 21.4 (patch 6) "Common Lisp" XEmacs Lucid From: Josh Smith X-Attribution: JBS Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Thanks for the detailed rundown, Andrew. If anyone here doesn't want one of the unopposed candidates to win, they should build a time machine, travel back a month or two, and get five people to nominate them for the ballot. Failing that, it sounds to me like this issue is finally closed. I hope we can all agree with Andrew's recommendation that the BOD should take steps to avoid the issue arising again next time. -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Thu Feb 28 23:47:47 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g217hEJ12304 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:43:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from q4.quik.com (q4.quik.com [216.176.28.1]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g217hDC12300 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:43:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from biz.compata.com (compata.com [216.176.39.9]) by q4.quik.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g217hBJ186798 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:43:11 -0800 Received: from biz.compata.com by biz.compata.com (Linux 2.2.14) with ESMTP (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA18485 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:36:58 -0800 Message-Id: <200203010736.XAA18485@biz.compata.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.3 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] ballot interpretation In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 01 Mar 2002 00:09:01 EST." <3C7F0CED.8060706@research.att.com> X-message-flag: Did you know MS Outlook is evil? X-Face: $?&5f7w4GjUJOb-[FmngebA}V`5Dv)QEdHg|d%mytVRm]'o}*{J6:PP%(LfN LmOcb#>"^wDF*|ZzuS??S*vLH[.miV( X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Andrew Hume wrote: >i would suggest that for each of teh five categories (pres, vp, sec, >treas, dir at large), the candidates and 'Abstain' be presented. >for the purposes of determining who is elected, the Abstain vote shall >be ignored. the Abstain votes can be used to assess the quality of >candidates offered in each category. In the midst of an excellent analysis of how to handle an "abstain" vote, Andrew offers the above suggestion. While I accept and agree with the rest of his comments, this one is wrong. No choice should appear on a ballot unless choosing it can affect the result of the election. No additional information is collected by offering an "abstain" choice. The total ballots cast is known. The number of votes for each candidate is known. The number of spoiled ballots (checking too many boxes) is known. The number of abstentions can be easily computed from the above. Ballots received late can also be counted (not the votes on them, just the number of ballots). The number of AWOL members is known by the difference between the cast and late ballots and the membership rolls. Ergo, no additional information is collected by an "abstain" choice. Putting irrelevant choices on a ballot creates confusion, as it has in this case. Despite Andrew's excellent analysis, it is common knowledge that an unscrupulous lawyer can make a case of almost anything. Giving such an opening to litigation is not in keeping with the fiduciary responsibilities of the Board. Ergo, don't print an "abstain" box. Strictly as an aside, I also note that a single "abstain" box for the director-at-large election is insufficient even for Andrew's purpose. -- Dave Close, Compata, Costa Mesa CA +1 714 434 7359 dave@compata.com dhclose@alumni.caltech.edu "..the last seven decades of the twentieth century will be characterized in history as the dark ages of theoretical physics." -- Carver Mead From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Mar 1 06:01:20 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g21DqGP15586 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 05:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.asicint.com (root@postal.asicint.com [205.218.106.10]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g21DqFJ15581 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 05:52:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.asicint.com (kcr@postal.asicint.com [127.0.0.1]) by postal.asicint.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g21DpgSM022996 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:51:42 -0500 Received: (from kcr@localhost) by postal.asicint.com (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g21DpguU022995 for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:51:42 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:51:42 -0500 From: Kurt Robinson To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] ballot interpretation Message-ID: <20020301085142.A22756@postal.asicint.com> References: <3C7F0CED.8060706@research.att.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C7F0CED.8060706@research.att.com>; from andrew@research.att.com on Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 12:09:01AM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Maybe I'm just picking nits here, but with regards to Andrew's recommendations: Why do you want to ever give an abstain checkbox if its being checked means absolutely nothing. Maybe its just my inherent sysadmin laziness kicking in here, but if I go ahead and check the Abstain box, or just don't check any boxes for that position, aren't I saying exactly the same thing. It would seem that by not checking off on anyone, I'm already suggesting I don't "approve" of the quality of candidates. Or to paraphrase my old logic professor, "Abstain is don't care" -kurt robinson From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Mar 1 06:33:38 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g21EQ8s15893 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 06:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from wally.eecs.harvard.edu (wally.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.30]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g21EQ7J15889 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 06:26:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from peg@localhost) by wally.eecs.harvard.edu (8.10.0/8.10.0) id g21EQ4q14573; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:26:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:26:04 -0500 (EST) From: Peg Schafer Message-Id: <200203011426.g21EQ4q14573@wally.eecs.harvard.edu> To: irilyth@infersys.com Subject: Re: [SAGE] Vote for Peg Schafer! Cc: sage-members@usenix.org X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Josh, Good and fair questions! First let me state why I think Trey would make a good vice-pres: 1) Leadership. I've seen Trey display strong leadership qualities. His forward looking views end up being "right on." 2) Great Political Instincts. He is able to gather people with diverse points of view and forge an agreement. 3) He is very very dependable. Which is helpful when the pres is not available. Next, your good question: If many of those members are re-elected, and you are also elected, what do you think will become of those conflicts? Will y'all be able to resolve those issues, or at least look past them, and work together to advance USENIX's mission? Much of the "fence mending" already been accomplished. For the folks who were not at the SAGE Community Meeting at LISA, let me say that the members of the USENIX Board who were in attendance, (Hume, Hall, McKusick, Jones, Avi?) took a heavy beating for the debacle (debacle=the sudden and unwarranted demand for the resignation of Barb Dijker and myself.) Eventually, each board member stood up before the assembled crowd and gave a heart-felt apology. I accepted that apology. I believe much of the responsibility for the debacle rests on the USENIX/SAGE liason, Hume, who (due to term limits) will not be attending future USENIX Board meetings. However, it should be noted that Hume brings the issue of "the vice-pres standing in for the president" because he has had to do so much "standing in" for Dan Geer. On the whole, I view the debacle as OVER and mostly due to poor communication, which is a mistake the USENIX & SAGE boards will not make again. But I digress. Let me go thru the list of candidates who are standing for re-election and offer an accurate answer for each person. Kirk McKusick and I have been friends for many years and had many substantive discussions at LISA about the debacle and the future of USENIX/SAGE. While we may have different positions, we have lots of respect for each other. I do not worry about not being specified in his candidate statement. Basicly he said "I have worked with these people before and I can work well with them again." We are on excellent terms and we plan to have dinner together soon. Mike Jones not only apologized at the SAGE community meeting, but also in private later. While we may not agree on the SAGE/USENIX re-organization, I would be able to work with Mike. Honeyman has a way of expressing his view which can put off the un-experienced ;-) but I do not know of a reason why we could not work well together. John Maddog Hall has always had my admiration. We had many good discussions at LISA. I look forward to working with him. John Gilmore and I have worked well in the past, I have great admiration for this work, I would be happy to work with him. Avi Rubin - I can't imagine why I would have a problem working with him. As for the other candidates: Lois Bennett - We have worked together at Harvard for years. We are great friends. Adam Moskowitz and I work well together and have had many good discussions regarding SAGE/USENIX. We see eye-to-eye more often than not. I've worked with Tina on SAGE issues before and I believe she has done a good job as ;login editor. Ted Ts'o has done wonderful work. I believe he has good judgment. James Yaple is a breath of fresh air! I have no experience with Clem Cole, Aleen Frish and Darell Long, so I cannot imagine why we could not work well together. In summation, I want to say that I am not only interested in SAGE issues, but also USENIX issues. I am no stranger to USENIX issues. I remember the bad old days when USENIX was broke, when we did not have the dedicated staff that we have now. The most unusual aspect of this election is that we have so many qualified candidates! I am sure the next board will be a strong board... Happy Hacking! --Peg Schafer From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Mar 1 09:14:39 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g21H80Y17676 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:08:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpo.casc.com (h152-148-10-6.outland.lucent.com [152.148.10.6]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g21H7vJ17672 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:07:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from sekrit.casc.com (sekrit [152.148.200.85]) by alpo.casc.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA06087 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:07:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from stoffel@localhost) by sekrit.casc.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id MAA08615; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:07:45 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: sekrit.casc.com: stoffel set sender to stoffel@sekrit using -f From: John Stoffel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15487.46432.882130.611697@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:07:44 -0500 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] NIS prob: RH 7.2 client, Sol 2.6 master. No work. X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, I'm going slowly nuts here, and since google isn't helping me, nor is the RedHat web site, I cast myself upon your broad and knowledgeable shoulders. Basically, we're a completely Solaris shop here, but we're looking to add in Linux clients as time goes by. We also use NIS internally for authentication. Yes, it's insecure, but it's what were using. So I've setup RedHat 6.2 systems before, and they just use NIS properly without a problem. But now that I've done a couple of RedHat 7.2 installs, none of them work properly with either the base install, or base+latest updates. I even went out and got ypbind-mt-1.9 (RH ships 1.8-1) and yp-tools-2.6 (RH ships 2.5-1), compiled and installed and they don't work. The NIS howto hasn't been updated since late 2000, so it hasn't been much help here. The wierd thing is that automount maps via NIS work just fine, I can goto home directories and such without a problem. MD5 passwords are turned off on the RH 7.2 box as well. Thanks, John (the not so smart feeling) John Stoffel - Senior Unix Systems Administrator - Lucent Technologies stoffel@lucent.com - http://www.lucent.com - 978-399-0479 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Mar 1 12:46:11 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g21Kd0421249 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:39:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfw-gate2.raytheon.com (dfw-gate2.raytheon.com [199.46.199.231]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g21KcwJ21245 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:38:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from ds02w01.directory.ray.com (ds02w01.directory.ray.com [147.25.154.117]) by dfw-gate2.raytheon.com (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id g21KcqG02985; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:38:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from ds02w01.directory.ray.com (root@localhost) by ds02w01.directory.ray.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g21Kcotx023869; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:38:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com (seasnake.RSC.RAYTHEON.COM [147.17.205.60]) by ds02w01.directory.ray.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g21Kcnf8023849; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:38:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from seasnake (seasnake [147.17.205.60]) by seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA14763; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:38:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200203012038.MAA14763@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com> Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:38:45 -0800 (PST) From: Mario Obejas Reply-To: Mario Obejas Subject: Re: [SAGE] NIS prob: RH 7.2 client, Sol 2.6 master. No work. To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: stoffel@casc.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: u6nWEr9dlE5sFXS7pGOmaQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4.2 SunOS 5.8 sun4u sparc X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk John, you gave background but scant detail. Please elaborate on what "none of them work properly" means *specifically*. 1. Doesn't bind? 2. Don't see other maps? 3. Maps don't change? 4. Error messages? 5. ypserv broken? 6. ypclient broken? 7. /var/log/messages entries? 8. /etc/auto* entries? 9. Did you try sys-unconfig? FWIW, I have a 7.2 box, and it's fine talking with a Solaris NIS master or slave. All is not lost. Got any 100 Half Duplex problems? If a user called you and gave you the info you gave us, what questions would you ask the user? Mario Obejas Engineering Automation & Computing Raytheon Electronic Systems 310-334-7201 (Voice) 310-366-4867 (Pager) Ps: we're looking for a more secure alternative to NIS as this year's big project. >From: John Stoffel >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:07:44 -0500 >To: sage-members@usenix.org >Subject: [SAGE] NIS prob: RH 7.2 client, Sol 2.6 master. No work. > >Hi all, > >I'm going slowly nuts here, and since google isn't helping me, nor is >the RedHat web site, I cast myself upon your broad and knowledgeable >shoulders. > >Basically, we're a completely Solaris shop here, but we're looking to >add in Linux clients as time goes by. We also use NIS internally for >authentication. Yes, it's insecure, but it's what were using. > >So I've setup RedHat 6.2 systems before, and they just use NIS >properly without a problem. But now that I've done a couple of RedHat >7.2 installs, none of them work properly with either the base install, >or base+latest updates. > >I even went out and got ypbind-mt-1.9 (RH ships 1.8-1) and >yp-tools-2.6 (RH ships 2.5-1), compiled and installed and they don't >work. The NIS howto hasn't been updated since late 2000, so it hasn't >been much help here. > >The wierd thing is that automount maps via NIS work just fine, I can >goto home directories and such without a problem. MD5 passwords are >turned off on the RH 7.2 box as well. > >Thanks, >John (the not so smart feeling) > > > John Stoffel - Senior Unix Systems Administrator - Lucent Technologies > stoffel@lucent.com - http://www.lucent.com - 978-399-0479 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Mar 1 15:10:29 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g21Mx8i22635 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:59:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from blues.hodgsonhouse.com (IDENT:postfix@blues.hodgsonhouse.com [24.72.10.211]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g21Mx3J22631 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:59:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by blues.hodgsonhouse.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 540F97F5D0; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:57:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:57:22 -0600 From: Tillman Hodgson To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] NIS prob: RH 7.2 client, Sol 2.6 master. No work. Message-ID: <20020301165721.A1255@hodgsonhouse.com> References: <200203012038.MAA14763@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <200203012038.MAA14763@seasnake.rsc.raytheon.com>; from obejas@phylum.rsc.raytheon.com on Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 12:38:45PM -0800 X-Editor: Vim Rocks! http://www.vim.org X-Mailer: Mutt Rocks! http://www.mutt.org X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 12:38:45PM -0800, Mario Obejas wrote: > Ps: we're looking for a more secure alternative to NIS as this year's big > project. What do folks think of the Kerberos5/NIS combination? For PAM-enabled OS'es it loks intriguing to me. - Tillman -- "...very few phenomena can pull someone out of Deep Hack Mode, with two noted exceptions: being struck by lightning, or worse, your *computer* being struck by lightning." (By Matt Welsh) From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Mar 1 15:28:45 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g21NJhi22886 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:19:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from littejo.earlham.edu (littejo.earlham.edu [159.28.1.253]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g21NJfJ22882 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rowan@localhost) by littejo.earlham.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g21NJf361043 for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 18:19:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rowan) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 18:19:41 -0500 From: John Rowan Littell To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] HP9000/735 configger Message-ID: <20020301181941.B60848@earlham.edu> Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Fba/0zbH8Xs+Fj9o" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-RELEASE i386 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk --Fba/0zbH8Xs+Fj9o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's an odd one. I have an HP9000/735 in my posession that I'd like to put into a slightly more useful state than a boat anchor. Sadly, I don't have the monitor that came with it (a fixed scan rate job with RGB inputs), so I can't display anything. I should be able to set the console to the serial port, but that seems to require being slightly more in tune with the minute timings of this beast's startup sequence than I currently am. Up until about half an hour ago, I had network connectivity -- but then I rashly tried to change its network address to something that didn't require having to set up several aliases on another box on my net (hey, it's the end of a long week, and I never was very good at HPUX 9...). Now, I guess, it can't figure out how to route anything out of its network stack. Sans monitor, is there any hope for this thing? Or should I continue in my mostly dormant search for a monitor that will work with it? I'd like to upgrade it to HPUX 10.20 so that it's Y2K happy (I've got the CDs, March 2000!). And then...oh, heck, I don't know...play moria on it or something. Does anyone know whether the PA-RISC ports of Linux or *BSD are any more usable than they were two years ago? --rowan --=20 John "Rowan" Littell Systems Administrator Earlham College Computing Services http://www.earlham.edu/~littejo/ --Fba/0zbH8Xs+Fj9o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQCVAwUBPIAMjZdUNSJ2nf/5AQEHPgQAjyuZgKDBq4fND/uwr9CJ7k1W0e+7S024 fjy+aD8dnJPj+PfAtOYHgwir136eWSleY3urmX57HRD99h08nxQ4IdGFCyboe7pv Td6fpc1hS8f7zL6srQsqtrmlSoFWVQlML5q9hmtM54Aut9TV2IiuiWmlKT+jCIDO y/JXYTU6JRs= =a1Qi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Fba/0zbH8Xs+Fj9o-- From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Mar 1 15:33:09 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g21NO6322967 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:24:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from amdext2.amd.com (amdext2.amd.com [163.181.251.1]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g21NO4J22963 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:24:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sausgs01.amd.com (sausgs01.amd.com [163.181.250.16]) by amdext2.amd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/AMD) with SMTP id RAB01342; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:23:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from 163.181.250.1 by sausgs01.amd.com with ESMTP (Tumbleweed MMS SMTP Relay (MMS v4.7)); Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:23:56 -0600 X-Server-Uuid: 18a6aeba-11ae-11d5-983c-00508be33d6d Received: from beast.amd.com (beast.amd.com [163.181.18.26]) by amdint2.amd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/AMD) with ESMTP id RAA28539; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:23:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from tesla.amd.com (IDENT:root@tesla.amd.com [163.181.28.194]) by beast.amd.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g21NNtk20846; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:23:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from tesla.amd.com (IDENT:quentin@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tesla.amd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3-MPD-Revision: 1.2 $) with ESMTP id RAA27721; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:23:55 -0600 Message-ID: <200203012323.RAA27721@tesla.amd.com> To: "John Stoffel" cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] NIS prob: RH 7.2 client, Sol 2.6 master. No work. In-Reply-To: Message from "John Stoffel" of "Fri, 01 Mar 2002 12:07:44 EST." <15487.46432.882130.611697@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:23:55 -0600 From: "Quentin Fennessy" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 109ED2064522281-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk John- Check out pam(8) on the linux boxes. /etc/pam.d has the config files. Look at /etc/pam.d/system-auth -- we have a password line like this: password sufficient /lib/security/pam_unix.so nullok use_authtok shadow nis -- Quentin Fennessy Quentin.Fennessy@amd.com Office: 512.602.3873 Cell: 512.694.7489 John asked: > Hi all, > I'm going slowly nuts here, and since google isn't helping me, nor is > the RedHat web site, I cast myself upon your broad and knowledgeable > shoulders. > Basically, we're a completely Solaris shop here, but we're looking to > add in Linux clients as time goes by. We also use NIS internally for > authentication. Yes, it's insecure, but it's what were using. > So I've setup RedHat 6.2 systems before, and they just use NIS > properly without a problem. But now that I've done a couple of RedHat > 7.2 installs, none of them work properly with either the base install, > or base+latest updates. > I even went out and got ypbind-mt-1.9 (RH ships 1.8-1) and > yp-tools-2.6 (RH ships 2.5-1), compiled and installed and they don't > work. The NIS howto hasn't been updated since late 2000, so it hasn't > been much help here. > The wierd thing is that automount maps via NIS work just fine, I can > goto home directories and such without a problem. MD5 passwords are > turned off on the RH 7.2 box as well. > Thanks, > John (the not so smart feeling) > John Stoffel - Senior Unix Systems Administrator - Lucent Technologies > stoffel@lucent.com - http://www.lucent.com - 978-399-0479 From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Mar 1 17:17:11 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g2216ks24148 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from lothlorien.tangledhelix.net (lothlorien.tangledhelix.net [198.88.76.131]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g2216hJ24144 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:06:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dan@localhost) by lothlorien.tangledhelix.net id g2216RN04429; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:06:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:06:27 -0500 From: Dan Lowe To: Kurt Robinson Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] ballot interpretation Message-ID: <20020301200626.A4318@lothlorien.tangledhelix.net> Reply-To: dan@tangledhelix.com Mail-Followup-To: Kurt Robinson , sage-members@usenix.org References: <3C7F0CED.8060706@research.att.com> <20020301085142.A22756@postal.asicint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020301085142.A22756@postal.asicint.com>; from kcr@asicint.com on Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 08:51:42AM -0500 X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Previously, Kurt Robinson said: > Maybe I'm just picking nits here, but with > regards to Andrew's recommendations: > > Why do you want to ever give an abstain checkbox if > its being checked means absolutely nothing. I tend to agree with your thought here - it seems silly to have the box if it is meaningless. I guess those interested in statistics might find it useful to be able to see the number of people who intentionally abstained versus the number of people who simply didn't vote at all. -- If it happens once, it's a bug. If it happens twice, it's a feature. If it happens more than twice, it's a design philosophy. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Fri Mar 1 21:47:29 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g225aJH25542 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 21:36:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.conference.apricot.net (ns1.conference.apricot.net [169.223.128.253]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g225aHJ25538 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 21:36:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from bla.netrack.net (user130-070.conference.apricot.net [169.223.130.70]) by smtp.conference.apricot.net (8.11.6/8.11.APRICOT) with ESMTP id g225ZNo00354 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 12:35:24 +0700 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020301204259.009f3b10@www.netrack.net> X-Sender: barb@www.netrack.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 20:49:46 -0700 To: sage-members@usenix.org (SAGE Members) From: Barb Dijker Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mike or Trey? (was Re: USENIX Election) In-Reply-To: <200202272059.PAA1338922@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <3C7CEC11.6040208@research.att.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I've combined two responses into one out of respect for the mailboxes of those who've already turned in their ballots (or don't plan to). At 03:59 PM 2/27/02 -0500, Adam S. Moskowitz wrote: >It's all but certain (to me, at least) that Kirk is going to be >President of the USENIX Board for the next two years. In light of that, >I think every member should at least read Kirk's reasons for endorsing >Mike. I think Kirk is the most suitable person to be the president of usenix at this time. I know him to be a reasonable person and he's been president of usenix before (a few times I think). So any issues of the usenix/sage relationship shouldn't present a significant distraction from his ability to deal with the daily requirements of the job he's done before. Nonetheless, I was appalled by the "endorsements" for other candidates in the candidate statements. It is unprecedented and imnsho inappropriate. It is the "reasons" given that are most disturbing. Kirk and the others have not had the opportunity to work with the candidates they didn't mention. So saying that they endorse candidates because they know they can work with them is just perpetuating the good 'ol boy way of doing business. They essentially say that that candidate isn't willing to try to work with people with whom he has no prior working relationship or keep an open mind about things. The endorsements are a also product of fear. Those who made them are afraid that alternative candidates have a shot of being elected - otherwise there is no need for endorsements. Note it was only the 'old guard' making them. Is that the kind of attitude we need right now? I think not. At 08:05 AM 2/28/02 -0500, Andrew Hume wrote: > my comments about trey reflected a simple inconsistency >between a requirement (as i see it) for teh position of vice president >and fairly clear factual aspects of trey's service with usenix governance. In that case, I'll counter your facts with this one: there are no experience requirements for any office of the usenix board. If it is so important that the president and vice have specifically usenix board experience, then it should be a requirement, not just your personal opinion or preference. Thanks for sharing tho. My turn. I believe what is most important is to have non-profit governance experience. Trey has more governance knowledge, experience, and integrity than anyone with whom I have served in SAGE and USENIX. I didn't know Trey when he was elected to SAGE. He has far exceeded my wildest expectations as someone who thoroughly and completely understands governance and is dedicated to serving the membership responsibly, dutifully and fairly. What he doesn't know, he's eager to learn and research quickly on his own. In short, he's earned my respect. He's also quick on the up-take. It normally takes someone on the usenix/sage bodies a term or two to get in the swing of how things work. Trey caught on within about 6 months. One can sit on the usenix board for a long long time and not have gained the insights that Trey has. A simple clocking of time sitting on the usenix board is not a measure of qualification in my book. If one's only governance experience is usenix, I see that as a serious shortcoming. I believe that Mike's very active role in the STG review committee speaks for itself. The usenix board acted on Nov 14th on the recommendations of that committee: made without Mike ever attending a single sage meeting or consulting with any member of the sage exec on their effects. Mike is the only member of that committee on the current election ballot. Unless Mike's candidate statement is incomplete, he has no governance experience except a single term on the usenix board. Finally, Mike claims credit for getting usenix staff dedicated to sage... something that should have been the job of the usenix liaison to sage (Andrew) and that the sage exec has requested repeatedly for over 7 years. Any body which seeks to perpetuate itself only from within is going to fester and continue the same mistakes of the past. ...Barb From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Mar 2 17:37:19 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g231Tck00528 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us ([199.221.90.249]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g231TZJ00524 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.8.8/8.8.8/lokkur-1.8-scs) id UAA11417 for sage-members@usenix.org; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 20:28:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 20:28:24 -0500 From: Steve Simmons To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] On Candidating, etc... Message-ID: <20020303012824.GA8956@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Various discussion goes on . . . and like Barb Dyker, I'm going to do a mass response to save everyone's mailbox. On Slates: While I'm one of the `alternate nominees', I choose not to run as part of a formal slate. Instead, (as I said in my candidates statement), I'm running *for USENIX*. So while there are good and bad things to be said about slates and about this slate vs. that slate, I'd prefer that folks for *for* me or *for* Peter, based on the job they think we'll do. There are a lot of folks voting on the `throw the bastards out' principle. They are pissed off, and we all understand why. But in many ways, the worst possible thing that could happen is a 100% turnover of the board. Many ongoing projects will come to a grinding halt, and restarting them without the help of `the bastards' would be difficult at best. It will become nearly impossible if that new board is simulateously trying to learn how to be a board. Certainly there are some folks with broad experience who are on the `alternate' list; I count myself among them. That experience has taught me that institutional memory is mostly in folks heads and is best communicated across a table. So I'm not part of a slate, because in this particular case, a slate is a bad idea. On the other hand . . . I'm glad to see Kirk, Peter, etc, say who they think are best qualified to be on the board. Most of the Boards work is invisible to the electorate, and it should be. I'm not implying the old `sausage and politics' cliche here (tho undoubtably politics are part of the job). Much of the job of a board is overseeing and implementing projects, conferences, working with staff, etc, etc. It's hard work, and it's the things the membership elected them to do. Few of us non-board members have the money and energy to attend even one Board meeting and see the Board in action; few of us want to spend a day or two at LISA or the main conference sitting in on the Board meetings. Current and recent board members know who works and who doesn't, who's an effective part of a team and who isn't. Their opinions on this matter should be spoken and should be given some weight. On New Blood vs. Old Boys: It's a problem with any organization that lasts more than a few years. The leaders know each other, work together reasonably well, nominate each other . . . and you get a de-facto old-boys network. That's often a good thing. It preserves institutional memory, conserves expertise, minimizes turnover issues, etc, etc. On the other hand it can lead to tunnel vision, resistance to change, and an unresponsive leadership. The best solution is moderate turnover. Unfortunately the nomination and voting procedures for USENIX tend to minimize turnover. That's a structural problem, and it can be fixed as well. Again, see below. The important point is that you need both continuity and turnover to have a healthy organization. On The SAGE Executive/USENIX Board flap: This will no doubt piss off a number of my friends, but here it is: Let it go. Yes, bad things happened. But I'm not interested in an investigation, a lynching, or even a public tongue-lashing. If we're to do right by USENIX, we have to get the pain go and move forward on fixing problems and continuing the good parts of both organizations. David Parter said it, Andrew said it, others have said it. Vote for people based on what you think they can and will do. What they did in the past needs to be considered as a whole. Everybody makes mistakes; try to determine who learns from them and who doesn't. Yeah, sometimes it's hard to see. It's especially hard when, as in this case, the USENIX Board has said far too little about the situation. IMHO, it's better we say some blunt truths rather than create problems with polite `mutually respectful' silence. But I don't know what those truths are, and at this point, seeking for them is probably not productive. I'm letting it go. If you are running *against* something, you'd better stop and ask yourself what you are going to *do* if you win. If you're voting *against* someone (person or group), you'd better stop and ask yourself what *they* are going to do if they win. On The Separation of SAGE and USENIX: Would it be a good idea to divide into two organizations? My answer is `it depends on how we do it.' Back when the whole Special Technical Group (STG) thing started, SAGE was envisioned as being the first of a number of them. Clearly it didn't work out that way, and we now have two distinct constituencies with conflicting goals. If we separate, the assets have to be divided and both organizations are financially and structurally weaker. If we stay together, we need to reconcile the whole tail/dog issue and revisit the whole meaning of a STG. Either way, it's a structural problem and it needs to be fixed. Which brings me to . . . The Structural Issues: Simply put, the bylaws and policies need to be revised and/or rewritten. There are several problems that need to be addressed, and (thus far) I don't see motion to address them. Taking some major points: o There is no provision for removal of a director by the membership. I'm not going to address the issue of whether or not it should or shouldn't have been done o The Nominating Committee effectively chooses the Board. Andrew has made a spirited defense of this, and I agree that it may not be their *intent* that they choose the board -- but effectively, that's what happens election after election. The four named positions have not (in my memory) ever failed to be elected, nor do I recall an at-large director coming from self-nomination. Oh yes, there are typically more than four at-large nominees, but they all come from the NCs list. Effectively, the NC gives the membership a list and the membership gets to choose which 4-of-7 (or whatever the current count is) will be the at-large directors. The four named positions are always in. I don't read anything pernicious into this. Yes, Andrew, I trust you :-). Nonetheless, we can do better. I'd prefer that the NCs task be to ensure that there are at least enough candidates to provide a diverse choice, but *not* to distinguish between those who came forward on their own and those whom the NC pushed. o I am strongly opposed to the current mechanism whereby people are nominated for particular offices. My own candidacy is a case in point. When putting forward my own name, I had no idea who else might be nominated for the position of secretary. Now I am in the position of running against Peter Honeyman, an old friend and a person who has a history of doing well for the organization. One of us will win, the other will be off the board completely. Similar things will happen with every named position. Ordinarily one would prefer to get the eight best people on the board. Under the current method, if the two best run for president, the next two best for VP, etc, we effectively put half of the best on the Board and the other half off it. A better system is to elect the eight best to the board and let them choose who should be President, etc. And before you say `I want to pick the President, etc', stop and read the candidate statements. Neither Peter nor I refer to our abilities as secretary. Lois discusses very little of her experience as a financial officer. Kirk spends most of his opening paragraphs talking about free software, not his ability to run an organization. If any of us are running for the named positions because we're qualified for *those particular tasks*, it sure doesn't show in our statements. Let's just vote for the eight best, and trust them to elect a president, etc. If a slate of 16 candidates is put forward to stand and fall on their own merits, I think we will bury both the old boys/new blood problem while further empowering the membership. o It should not be possible for the Board to act in isolation and overturn the results of a election by the membership. The key word here is `in isolation.' When removing officers elected by the membership, the Board needs to act in a well-defined and open manner. As has been repeatedly said, the Board made a decision under pressure and without guidelines or precedent. It's their job to make those decisions; it's the memberships right to agree or disagree on how well they did. I think we all agree that the precedent now set is a bad one; guidelines should be developed so that it is not how we do things in the future. o At the same time, we want to preserve a strong board. A strong board is a virtue, especially in an organization where only about 15% of the electorate vote. The strong board principle has served us well, it should be continued. o The current elections method can lead to sudden discontinuity. Conversely, it allows things to go on *too* long without the membership having it's most effective input, the ballot. The fix is simple, once the Board elects its own officers: vote every year for four members with two-year terms. It ensures at least 50% year-to-year continuity, it reduces the number of folks the NC has to come up with from 16 to 8, it lets the board annually re-evaluate the performance of their elected officers -- in short, it's just plain better. o The voting rules need to be clarified, such as the meaning of abstain, etc. Jeez, you'd think we didn't know how to design an algorithm. :-) o STGs never became what was envisioned. I still feel the concept is viable, but since we've not gotten a second one in ten years it's difficult to argue for continuing the current definition. If we can come up with a champion for it and see two or three more groups developing in the next three years, great. Otherwise we need to drop it. You will notice that through all of the above, there is a running theme that *we can do this better*. That's what we need to focus on. We need to work *for USENIX*. If that means continued unity with SAGE, wonderful. If not, then we need to proceed in a reasonable way to separate the two organizations. Grinding old axes won't get us there. We need to see past the pain of the recent past and learn lessons from it, not respond in kind. And that why I say, again, I'm running *for USENIX*. You now know what I think needs to be worked on. Steve From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sat Mar 2 23:57:46 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g237pSt01763 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 23:51:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g237pCJ01757; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 23:51:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.110]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Sat, 2 Mar 2002 23:50:06 -0800 Received: from 157.54.5.25 by INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Sat, 02 Mar 2002 23:50:06 -0800 Received: from red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.71]) by inet-hub-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Sat, 2 Mar 2002 23:50:05 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6157.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [SAGE] Mike or Trey? (was Re: USENIX Election) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 23:49:49 -0800 Message-ID: <7695E2F6903F7A41961F8CF888D87EA8052DBF0B@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAGE] Mike or Trey? (was Re: USENIX Election) thread-index: AcHBrhoEh20bNPgyTxOyi6PyZxQhrgA2A++z From: "Mike Jones" To: "SAGE Members" Cc: "USENIX Board" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Mar 2002 07:50:05.0690 (UTC) FILETIME=[087DFDA0:01C1C288] X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.org id g237pCJ01758 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Since apparently there have been some questions about my governance experience, thought I would add the following information, for those of you interested in it. I was a founding board member and am serving as vice-president of an active non-profit corporation raising funds for, selecting among, and reviewing proposed and ongoing development and education projects in south Asia. I am the vice-chair of the board of directors of a for-profit Singapore corporation in the stock photography business. I am also an investor in that company and actively reviewed and helped the company principals refine and revise their business plans, both before investing and as new opportunities and challenges arose. I am one of two principals of a Washington State LLC wholly owning the Singapore corporation. I am also serving as USENIX Board Secretary and seeking election as USENIX Board Vice-President. As already outlined in my election statement, I believe strongly in USENIX's missions and believe that my experiences of many kinds, including as an active researcher who publishes at USENIX and other conferences, will assist me in continuing to help the organization grow, thrive, and serve its members, including its SAGE STG members, should I be re-elected. I thank you for considering voting for me to enable me to serve you in this manner. Sincerely, -- Mike Jones > ---------- > From: Barb Dijker[SMTP:barb@netrack.net] > Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 7:49 PM > To: SAGE Members > Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mike or Trey? (was Re: USENIX Election) > > I've combined two responses into one out of respect for the mailboxes > of those who've already turned in their ballots (or don't plan to). > > At 03:59 PM 2/27/02 -0500, Adam S. Moskowitz wrote: > >It's all but certain (to me, at least) that Kirk is going to be > >President of the USENIX Board for the next two years. In light of that, > >I think every member should at least read Kirk's reasons for endorsing > >Mike. > > I think Kirk is the most suitable person to be the president of > usenix at this time. I know him to be a reasonable person and he's > been president of usenix before (a few times I think). So any issues > of the usenix/sage relationship shouldn't present a significant distraction > from > his ability to deal with the daily requirements of the job he's done > before. > > Nonetheless, I was appalled by the "endorsements" for other candidates in the > candidate statements. It is unprecedented and imnsho inappropriate. It is the > "reasons" given that are most disturbing. > > Kirk and the others have not had the opportunity to work with the > candidates they > didn't mention. So saying that they endorse candidates because they know they > can work with them is just perpetuating the good 'ol boy way of doing > business. They essentially say that that candidate isn't willing to try to > work > with people with whom he has no prior working relationship or keep an open mind > about things. The endorsements are a also product of fear. Those who made them > are afraid that alternative candidates have a shot of being elected - otherwise > there is no need for endorsements. Note it was only the 'old guard' making > them. > > Is that the kind of attitude we need right now? I think not. > > At 08:05 AM 2/28/02 -0500, Andrew Hume wrote: > > my comments about trey reflected a simple inconsistency > >between a requirement (as i see it) for teh position of vice president > >and fairly clear factual aspects of trey's service with usenix governance. > > In that case, I'll counter your facts with this one: there are no > experience requirements for any office of the usenix board. If it is so > important > that the president and vice have specifically usenix board experience, > then it should be a requirement, not just your personal opinion or preference.> > Thanks for sharing tho. My turn. > > I believe what is most important is to have non-profit governance experience. > Trey has more governance knowledge, experience, and integrity than > anyone with whom I have served in SAGE and USENIX. I didn't know > Trey when he was elected to SAGE. He has far exceeded my wildest > expectations as someone who thoroughly and completely understands > governance and is dedicated to serving the membership responsibly, > dutifully and fairly. What he doesn't know, he's eager to learn and > research quickly on his own. In short, he's earned my respect. > > He's also quick on the up-take. It normally takes someone > on the usenix/sage bodies a term or two to get in the swing of how things work. > Trey caught on within about 6 months. One can sit on the usenix board > for a long long time and not have gained the insights that Trey has. > A simple clocking of time sitting on the usenix board is not a measure > of qualification in my book. If one's only governance experience is > usenix, I see that as a serious shortcoming. > > I believe that Mike's very active role in the STG review committee speaks > for itself. > The usenix board acted on Nov 14th on the recommendations of that committee: > made without Mike ever attending a single sage meeting or consulting with any > member of the sage exec on their effects. Mike is the only member > of that committee on the current election ballot. Unless Mike's candidate > statement > is incomplete, he has no governance experience except a single term on the > usenix board. > Finally, Mike claims credit for getting usenix staff dedicated to sage... > something > that should have been the job of the usenix liaison to sage (Andrew) and that > the sage exec has requested repeatedly for over 7 years. > > Any body which seeks to perpetuate itself only from within is going to fester > and continue the same mistakes of the past. > > ...Barb > > From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Sun Mar 3 23:23:51 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g247Eru12111 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 23:14:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com (mail-blue.research.att.com [135.207.30.102]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g247EpJ12107 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 23:14:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.research.att.com (postal.research.att.com [135.207.23.30]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7534CF44 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 02:14:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com ([135.207.39.165]) by postal.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA05496 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 02:10:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C831EE2.3040101@research.att.com> Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 02:14:42 -0500 From: Andrew Hume User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: sage-members-digest V2 #793 References: <200203031000.g23A01j02136@usenix.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk while much of what steve simmons says is true or quite plausible, i will take exception to some of it: >o The Nominating Committee effectively chooses the Board. Andrew > has made a spirited defense of this, and I agree that it may not > be their *intent* that they choose the board -- but effectively, > that's what happens election after election. The four named > positions have not (in my memory) ever failed to be elected, nor > do I recall an at-large director coming from self-nomination. > Oh yes, there are typically more than four at-large nominees, but > they all come from the NCs list. Effectively, the NC gives the > membership a list and the membership gets to choose which 4-of-7 > (or whatever the current count is) will be the at-large directors. > The four named positions are always in. > false. there have occasionally been self-nominations for officer positions, at least one of which (lori grob) won. there have been many self-nominated non-officer candidates, while i'm not sure how many have won office (or come very close), i do know honeyman is on the board despite not being nominated by the previous NC. of course, the other way to interpret the strong correlation between being nominated and being elected is that the NC does a good job! although the quality varies from year to year, generally, the NC yields high quality, experienced people, and it is no wonder that they will typically beat random self-nomations. > > > I don't read anything pernicious into this. Yes, Andrew, I trust > you :-). Nonetheless, we can do better. I'd prefer that the NCs > task be to ensure that there are at least enough candidates to > provide a diverse choice, but *not* to distinguish between those > who came forward on their own and those whom the NC pushed. > unlike previous nominating commitees, the current NC took a low profile and with the exception of people 'boasting' about being nominated by Greg's committee, no one mentioned the NC in the statements in the Ballot. there is, in fact, no way to tell from teh Ballot who was nominated or who wasn't, except by the candidates' statements. in this sense, the election is absolutely fair and is indifferent to how candidates were nominated. > > o I am strongly opposed to the current mechanism whereby people are > nominated for particular offices. My own candidacy is a case in > point. When putting forward my own name, I had no idea who else > might be nominated for the position of secretary. Now I am in > the position of running against Peter Honeyman, an old friend and > a person who has a history of doing well for the organization. > One of us will win, the other will be off the board completely. > Similar things will happen with every named position. > > well, i am sympathetic as i tried to get a different scheme adopted by the current board but that didn't work out. there are advantages to teh current scheme. > > Ordinarily one would prefer to get the eight best people on the > board. Under the current method, if the two best run for > president, the next two best for VP, etc, we effectively put > half of the best on the Board and the other half off it. A better > system is to elect the eight best to the board and let them choose > who should be President, etc. > this is awful. it sets up the wrong dynamic. by having the board elect the president, it inevitably sets up a president to having to do things so as to not upset the board. for all other positions, i'd go along with this, but not the president. > > > And before you say `I want to pick the President, etc', stop and > read the candidate statements. Neither Peter nor I refer to our > abilities as secretary. Lois discusses very little of her experience > as a financial officer. Kirk spends most of his opening paragraphs > talking about free software, not his ability to run an organization. > while i can't speak for you nor anyone else nominated by greg's committee, i can say that anyone nominated for any position by the current NC *is* qualified for that position. i find it hard to deduce anything much from a statement from an unopposed candidate. > o The current elections method can lead to sudden discontinuity. > Conversely, it allows things to go on *too* long without the > membership having it's most effective input, the ballot. The fix > is simple, once the Board elects its own officers: vote every year > for four members with two-year terms. It ensures at least 50% > year-to-year continuity, it reduces the number of folks the NC has > to come up with from 16 to 8, it lets the board annually > re-evaluate the performance of their elected officers -- in short, > it's just plain better. > gosh, this is the same scheme that the SAGE exec used to have and rejected. the problem is that each board only exists for one year, and that is way too short to geteveryone used to everyone else and get going again. while superficially attractive, it is just awful in practise. -- Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and SAGE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 4 00:20:18 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g2488mv12475 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 00:08:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-green.research.att.com (H-135-207-30-103.research.att.com [135.207.30.103]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g2488lJ12471 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 00:08:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.research.att.com (postal.research.att.com [135.207.23.30]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ABF81E043 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 03:08:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com ([135.207.39.165]) by postal.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA06195 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 03:04:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C832B85.5030702@research.att.com> Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 03:08:37 -0500 From: Andrew Hume User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: sage-members-digest V2 #792 References: <200203021000.g22A01H26661@usenix.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > > >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:26:04 -0500 (EST) >From: Peg Schafer >Subject: Re: [SAGE] Vote for Peg Schafer! > >Josh, > Good and fair questions! > >First let me state why I think Trey would make a good vice-pres: >1) Leadership. I've seen Trey display strong leadership qualities. > His forward looking views end up being "right on." >2) Great Political Instincts. He is able to gather people with diverse > points of view and forge an agreement. >3) He is very very dependable. Which is helpful when the pres is not > available. > josh's question related specifically to trey's lack of usenix board experience, which was not addressed here. > >Next, your good question: > > If many of those members are re-elected, and you are also elected, what > do you think will become of those conflicts? Will y'all be able to > resolve those issues, or at least look past them, and work together to > advance USENIX's mission? > >Much of the "fence mending" already been accomplished. > >For the folks who were not at the SAGE Community Meeting at LISA, let >me say that the members of the USENIX Board who were in attendance, >(Hume, Hall, McKusick, Jones, Avi?) took a heavy beating for the >debacle (debacle=the sudden and unwarranted demand for the resignation >of Barb Dijker and myself.) Eventually, each board member stood up >before the assembled crowd and gave a heart-felt apology. I accepted >that apology. I believe much of the responsibility for the debacle >rests on the USENIX/SAGE liason, Hume, who (due to term limits) will >not be attending future USENIX Board meetings. > leaving aside the false claim that i am primarily responsible for the Intervention, i will certainly be attending meetings from time, although not as an elected board member. i would hope peg would treat me with the same respect as she would any other member (although that hasn't happened to date). >However, it should be >noted that Hume brings the issue of "the vice-pres standing in for the >president" because he has had to do so much "standing in" for Dan >Geer. On the whole, I view the debacle as OVER and mostly due to poor >communication, which is a mistake the USENIX & SAGE boards will not >make again. > i agree that is is over and won't happen again, but if so, then why would anyone vote for Harris, who is, according to his statement, a single issue candidate on pretty much this issue of USENIX-SAGE relations? > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 20:49:46 -0700 >From: Barb Dijker >Subject: Re: [SAGE] Mike or Trey? (was Re: USENIX Election) > > >Nonetheless, I was appalled by the "endorsements" for other candidates in the >candidate statements. It is unprecedented and imnsho inappropriate. It is the >"reasons" given that are most disturbing. > actually, i made endorsements in my 2000 statement (i strongly advocated voting for an academic, either honeyman or rubin), and honeyman somewhat indirectly advocated voting for rubin and long. > > >Kirk and the others have not had the opportunity to work with the >candidates they >didn't mention. So saying that they endorse candidates because they know they >can work with them is just perpetuating the good 'ol boy way of doing >business. They essentially say that that candidate isn't willing to try to >work >with people with whom he has no prior working relationship or keep an open mind >about things. The endorsements are a also product of fear. Those who made them >are afraid that alternative candidates have a shot of being elected - otherwise >there is no need for endorsements. Note it was only the 'old guard' making >them. > so many mistakes, so little time. 1) everyone making recommendations has worked with maddog, and is certainly familiar with schafer. 2) kirk is the only one who mentioned 'can work with them', and he mentioned other characteristics as well. 3) everyone else worded their recommendations as people they thought would do a good job (or had done an good job); that is, emphasising teh positive aspects, rather than saying or implying negative things about the other candidates. 4) there are non-fear reasons for endorsements, such as the one motivating my endorsements last time round. take honeyman; he believes passionately that the board must have strong representation of teh academic community, so speaks out for rubin and long (amongst others). 5) only some of teh old guard made them, and of them, only two had teh same list (mckusick and jones); the others made smaller, more specific endorsements. > > >At 08:05 AM 2/28/02 -0500, Andrew Hume wrote: > >> my comments about trey reflected a simple inconsistency >>between a requirement (as i see it) for teh position of vice president >>and fairly clear factual aspects of trey's service with usenix governance. >> > >In that case, I'll counter your facts with this one: there are no >experience requirements for any office of the usenix board. If it is so >important >that the president and vice have specifically usenix board experience, >then it should be a requirement, not just your personal opinion or preference. > it effectively has been a requirement made by the NC for the last several elections, even if it is an unwritten one. -- Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and SAGE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 4 00:23:03 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g248FH112541 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 00:15:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-green.research.att.com (H-135-207-30-103.research.att.com [135.207.30.103]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g248FGJ12537 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 00:15:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.research.att.com (postal.research.att.com [135.207.23.30]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8DB61E04A for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 03:15:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com ([135.207.39.165]) by postal.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA06311 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 03:11:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C832D09.2090806@research.att.com> Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 03:15:05 -0500 From: Andrew Hume User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] conflict of interest? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk trey, there is a prima facie conflict of interest in being on both the USENIX board and the SAGE exec. can you speak to that? -- Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and SAGE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 4 00:36:34 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g248T3012649 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 00:29:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.76.82]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g248T0J12645 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 00:29:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAVAJO.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.76.82]) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/1.0) with ESMTP id g248SpCk026522; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 00:28:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20020304192027.0522f848@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: ggr2@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:29:10 +1100 To: Andrew Hume From: Greg Rose Subject: Re: [SAGE] Re: sage-members-digest V2 #793 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <3C831EE2.3040101@research.att.com> References: <200203031000.g23A01j02136@usenix.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 02:14 AM 3/4/2002 -0500, Andrew Hume wrote: >i do know honeyman is on the board despite not >being nominated by the previous NC. Yes, that's an interesting case. The report of the 2000 nominating committee at http://www.usenix.org/whatsnew/nominating_committee_rep.html doesn't mention Peter Honeyman, and Kirk is nominated for Treasurer. Yet the slate, at http://www.usenix.org/whatsnew/election_slate.html , shows honey running unopposed for the Treasurer's position. Greg. Greg Rose INTERNET: ggr@qualcomm.com Qualcomm Australia VOICE: +61-2-9817 4188 FAX: +61-2-9817 5199 Level 3, 230 Victoria Road, http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ Gladesville NSW 2111 232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 4 07:05:02 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g24Euj515631 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 06:56:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g24EuiJ15627 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 06:56:44 -0800 (PST) Received: [from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate2.mot.com (motgate2 2.1) with ESMTP id HAA03249 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 07:56:42 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from plnt053.comm.mot.com (plantation.comm.mot.com [145.2.198.80]) by pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id HAA12451 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 07:56:39 -0700 (MST)] Received: by plantation.comm.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.52) id <14HZY46N>; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:56:39 -0500 Message-ID: From: Brown Michael-EMB021 To: "'sage-members@usenix.org'" Subject: [SAGE] Nominating Committee Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:56:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.52) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk All- The purpose of a Nominating Committee is to ensure that a slate of qualified candidates are put forth for an election. In no way does this prevent additional people from being nominated 'from the floor', and such a thing should be welcome because this gives a great choice for members. Its thus incorrect to say a NomComm 'chooses' a group's officers. The use of NomComms is common parliamentary practice in many organizations. Michael Brown USENIX/SAGE member Member, National Association of Parliamentarians Member, American Institute of Parliamentarians From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 4 07:28:16 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g24FKrR15931 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 07:20:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from oberon.azuen.net (oberon.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.62.140]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g24FKkJ15927 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 07:20:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by oberon.azuen.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 24A18F493; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 15:20:44 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:20:44 -0500 From: Chris Palmer To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] conflict of interest? Message-ID: <20020304102043.A34542@wally.eecs.harvard.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Chris Palmer , sage-members@usenix.org References: <3C832D09.2090806@research.att.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C832D09.2090806@research.att.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 04/03/02, Andrew Hume wrote: > trey, > > there is a prima facie conflict of interest in being on both the > USENIX board and the SAGE exec. can you speak to that? I can. If you think there is such a conflict of interest, you're admitting that SAGE is a de facto separate organization, with goals and programs running at cross purposes to Usenix's. If so, you'd surely agree that a SAGE/USENIX split was a wise idea, wouldn't you? If not, then how is it a conflict of interest for someone to serve both on the board of an organization and on a committee of a special technical group therein? Is it a conflict of interest for Lois Bennett to serve as chair of the Certification effort and on the Usenix board? I don't see how, considering the goals of a subsidary organization ought to be complimentary to the whole. Honestly, I'm beginning to sense that continuity and experience on the Usenix board are *bad* things, because it appears that Usenix has very peculiar notions about the governance of a nonprofit organization, and these ... pecularities aren't serving it particularly well. Then there's this: > leaving aside the false claim that i am primarily responsible for the > Intervention, I'm all for a general sense of "let's not fling mud indiscriminately" but I do not think that culpable people should be able to hide their failings behind a "lets just get along" sentiment. You might not be the primary *cause* of the communication breakdown and subsequent horrors between the Usenix Board and the Sage Exec, but as the liaison between the two bodies, surely you are primarily responsible. That's precisely what the job description of "liaison" gives you: responsibility for inter-body communication. If there was a communication breakdown, it lies at your feet; if there wasn't, then what truly was the problem? -Chris Palmer From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 4 07:58:46 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g24FpKU16302 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 07:51:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from wally.eecs.harvard.edu (wally.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.30]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g24FpIJ16298 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 07:51:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (trey@localhost) by wally.eecs.harvard.edu (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id g24FpHe06684 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:51:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:51:17 -0500 (EST) From: Trey Harris To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] conflict of interest? In-Reply-To: <3C832D09.2090806@research.att.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Andrew Hume writes: > there is a prima facie conflict of interest in being on both the > USENIX board and the SAGE exec. can you speak to that? There is no prima facie conflict. Were the two organizations separate but closely allied, there might be such an assumed conflict; but, as SAGE is an inseparable part of USENIX currently, there is no prima facie conflict. SAGE and USENIX both share a rather small lifeboat; what is good for the one should generally be good for the other. If I were being appointed to the USENIX board by SAGE, then I would have an obligation to support all actions of the SAGE Exec before USENIX. This might present a situational conflict, if those actions were not in the best interest of USENIX as a whole. But I'm not being installed on the USENIX board by SAGE; I'm being elected as an individual. This leaves me free to vote as I see fit, even if that vote is contrary to the will of the SAGE Exec. I have difficulty imagining such a conflict actually coming up--our destinies are intertwined, at least for the time being. SAGE is USENIX's largest ongoing project, so SAGE's success is USENIX's success too. And USENIX must be successful and financially healthy for SAGE to be successful. But, for the sake of argument, let's imagine a scenario where a conflict might come up: SAGE asks for funding that would allow it to do some project, but USENIX cannot afford that funding. I would hope that between myself, the USENIX liaison to SAGE, and the SAGE President (who is liaison to USENIX), we would be able to come to a mutually beneficial resolution. But if no such resolution were possible, my resposibility for fiduciary stewardship of USENIX would have to take precedence, and I would have to vote against the funding. -- Trey Harris Secretary and Executive SAGE -- The System Administrators Guild (www.sage.org) Opinions above are not necessarily those of SAGE. From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 4 08:28:03 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g24GKNW16690 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:20:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from services.kq.no (services.kq.no [193.71.71.22]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g24GKLJ16686 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:20:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by services.kq.no (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g24GKH705404; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 17:20:17 +0100 (MET) >Received: by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (Postfix, from userid 501) id D29293579; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:57:26 +0100 (CET) To: Andrew Hume Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] conflict of interest? References: <3C832D09.2090806@research.att.com> From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo Date: 04 Mar 2002 16:57:26 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3C832D09.2090806@research.att.com> (Andrew Hume's message of "Mon, 04 Mar 2002 03:15:05 -0500") Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090004 (Oort Gnus v0.04) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Andrew Hume writes: > there is a prima facie conflict of interest in being on both the > USENIX board and the SAGE exec. can you speak to that? How can being a member of the board of an organization, and, at the same time, being a member of the administrative committee of a special interest group within that organization be a conflict of interest? This would require a conflict between USENIX as a whole, and SAGE as a SIG, and I thought all that was supposed to be behind us now... ;-) -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 4 08:29:33 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g24GMBr16710 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:22:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from motgate4.mot.com (motgate4.mot.com [144.189.100.102]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g24GMAJ16706 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:22:10 -0800 (PST) Received: [from pobox3.mot.com (pobox3.mot.com [10.64.251.242]) by motgate4.mot.com (motgate4 2.1) with ESMTP id JAA15720 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:22:09 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from plnt053.comm.mot.com (plantation.comm.mot.com [145.2.198.80]) by pobox3.mot.com (MOT-pobox3 2.0) with ESMTP id JAA14309 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:10:24 -0700 (MST)] Received: by plantation.comm.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.52) id <14HZYXV4>; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:22:05 -0500 Message-ID: From: Brown Michael-EMB021 To: "'sage-members@usenix.org'" Subject: [SAGE] Parliamentary Procedure (was Re: Motivations) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:22:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.52) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >On Thu, 28 Feb "Adam S. Moskowitz" wrote > >On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:20:29 -0500, Natt Joel-EJN018 motorola.com> wrote: > >> If an organization runs by parliamentary law (i.e. Roberts Rules) > >Robert's Rules of Order DO NOT APPLY to electing the parliament; rather, >they govern the making of and voting on MOTIONS while the parliament is >in session. Excuse me? Parliamentary procedure deals with how an organization operates, including elections. Its a lot more then just making motions. However, because every organization is free to define how they do what they do, many detail in their own documents (ie Bylaws) how they do elections, rather then follow what is in their parliamentary authority. >The only elections mentioned in RROO -- at least that I can find after >three readings -- are those where the parliament (NOT the constituents >they represent) is electing an officer or head of a committee. > > RROO is a rather dense document, and reading it tends > to cross my eyes. If someone can show where I am wrong > with respect to RROO and elections, please be so kind > as to supply Part, Article, and Paragraph, so I don't > have to read the whole thing a fourth time. :-) Huh? Robert's Rules of Order, Newly Revised (properly appreviated RONR) has a whole chapter on Nominations and elections. And RONR does not deal with 'parliament', but with 'deliberate assembles' (Robert's term), which means the organization using Robert's. The elections they are dealing with is the elections of an organizations officers. That deliberate assembly may be a small club or organization, which means the members are electing their officers, or that deliberate assembly may be made up of voting delegates. RONR applies to both sorts of groups. >Never having attended a USENIX Board meeting, I can't say if we run by >Robert's Rules or not. HOWEVER, I can not find anything in either the >by-laws or policies that says we have to. > >> does not define a voting procedure (i.e. Abstain is a nay vote) > >A voting procedure IS defined -- but it doesn't cover the exact form of >the ballot, nor does it address this specific question. Then again, >neither have the other five or six sets of by-laws I've read and/or >drafted addressed this issue (for better or worse). > >> when a candidate runs un apposed abstain means do not count my vote towards >> the total. > >What "abstain" means is yet to be determined. There are, no doubt, >several strong opinions on what it SHOULD mean. Abstain means 'not voting'. What has yet to be made clear is what that means in this election. Properly the vote should have been "Yes" or "No", not "Yes" and "Abstain", because that means basically vote or don't vote. And not voting doesn't count. >> the option to vote against the person by other means needs to be provided >> according to Roberts. > >I do not believe that organizations are obligated to provide a means to >vote against unopposed candidates. They're not, but they better have some means to be clear when you have an unopposed candidate that some are NOT voting for this person. Even if you have one candidate, you are not forced to accept them by unanimous acclamation. >> all I wanted to do was make everyone aware that abstain does not equal a >> no vote, but simply lowers the total number of votes needed to win that >> position. > >We don't know this -- not yet, at least. > >AdamM Michael Brown USENIX/SAGE member Member, National Association of Parliamentarians Member, American Institute of Parliamentarians From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 4 10:05:27 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g24HvWW18303 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:57:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from noh.ucsd.edu (noh.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.100]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g24HvUJ18299 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:57:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from paw@localhost) by noh.ucsd.edu (8.11.5/8.10.1) id g24HvU520618; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:57:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:57:30 -0800 (PST) From: Pat Wilson Message-Id: <200203041757.g24HvU520618@noh.ucsd.edu> To: Michael.R.Brown@motorola.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] Nominating Committee X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Yes, that's the way it works in theory. In practice (and historically in Usenix), the influence of the NomCom in both SAGE and Usenix elections varies depending on the constitution of the Committee, which is why folks are touchy about the subject. It _is_ true that self-nomination has always been an option, and that self-nominated members have been elected to both the Board and the Exec. --paw Brown Michael-EMB021 writes: All- The purpose of a Nominating Committee is to ensure that a slate of qualified candidates are put forth for an election. In no way does this prevent additional people from being nominated 'from the floor', and such a thing should be welcome because this gives a great choice for members. Its thus incorrect to say a NomComm 'chooses' a group's officers. The use of NomComms is common parliamentary practice in many organizations. Michael Brown USENIX/SAGE member Member, National Association of Parliamentarians Member, American Institute of Parliamentarians From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 4 20:16:28 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g2547IS27586 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:07:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from warlock.qualcomm.com (warlock.qualcomm.com [129.46.64.204]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g2547BJ27582 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:07:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from avalon.qualcomm.com (avalon.qualcomm.com [203.30.171.11]) by warlock.qualcomm.com (8.12.1/8.9.3/8.9) with ESMTP id g2547279007131; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:07:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAVAJO.qualcomm.com by avalon.qualcomm.com (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id PAA16654; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 15:06:44 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20020305105348.01b71670@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: ggr2@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 11:21:35 +1100 To: Andrew Hume From: Greg Rose Subject: Re: [SAGE] conflict of interest? Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <3C832D09.2090806@research.att.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 03:15 AM 3/4/2002 -0500, Andrew Hume wrote: > there is a prima facie conflict of interest in being on both the >USENIX board and the SAGE exec. can you speak to that? I'm not Trey, nor am I attempting to answer for him, but I have something to say on the subject of conflicts of interest. I got my understanding of what "conflict of interest" is, when I was a relatively inexperienced CEO of a software company that had just attracted serious venture capital. The backers installed as our chairman, a guy who was on the board of three of Australia's top ten companies, and was simultaneously chairman of Mount Isa Mines, about number three company at the time. When a situation came up that I thought was a CoI, he said it was inevitable that situations arise. Conflicts of Interest cannot, in practice, be avoided, without crippling yourselves. They can, however, be managed, in in the management thereof, the organisation can profit from the better understanding and/or awareness that usually accompanies the supposed conflict. Now, using Trey's potential dual role simply by way of example (since no-one can tell what the future will bring), his mere existence on both boards seems totally lacking in any element of Conflict. Mutual Interest, yes, but that surely isn't a problem. When might an element of Conflict arise? Clearly Trey would be inappropriate on a SAGE Review panel, for example. He might choose to (or be reasonably requested to) abstain on a vote for special funding for a SAGE project. I can't see why he couldn't vote on normal SAGE budget approval, though. Continuing David Stewart's advice, Conflict of Interest usually only becomes a problem when there are secrets being kept... it isn't like Trey's "other role" is going to be a secret. If the other board members think he's being biased they can and should take that into account in their own deliberations. On the other hand, Trey's (and remember we're using him as an example here, so don't take anything I say as necessarily correct or relevent) "SAGE agenda" is exactly why he will have been elected (if he is) and cannot possibly represent a Conflict of Interest. SAGE's interests and USENIX's are clearly related. The phrase "Conflict of Interest" is often used as a kind of corporate bogey-man, but it really shouldn't be. So, "Where's the beef?" Greg. Greg Rose INTERNET: ggr@qualcomm.com Qualcomm Australia VOICE: +61-2-9817 4188 FAX: +61-2-9817 5199 Level 3, 230 Victoria Road, http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ Gladesville NSW 2111 232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Mon Mar 4 23:37:31 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g257SRb29036 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from q4.quik.com (q4.quik.com [216.176.28.1]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g257SQJ29032 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:28:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from biz.compata.com (compata.com [216.176.39.9]) by q4.quik.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g257SOD12964 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:28:25 -0800 Received: from biz.compata.com by biz.compata.com (Linux 2.2.14) with ESMTP (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA06937 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:24:56 -0800 Message-Id: <200203050724.XAA06937@biz.compata.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.3 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: [SAGE] conflict of interest? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 Mar 2002 03:15:05 EST." <3C832D09.2090806@research.att.com> X-message-flag: Did you know MS Outlook is evil? X-Face: $?&5f7w4GjUJOb-[FmngebA}V`5Dv)QEdHg|d%mytVRm]'o}*{J6:PP%(LfN LmOcb#>"^wDF*|ZzuS??S*vLH[.miV( X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Andrew Hume wrote: >there is a prima facie conflict of interest in being on both the >USENIX board and the SAGE exec. Reading between invisible lines, I sense a fear that the SAGE Exec, and SAGE as a whole, might have a "spy" in the ranks of USENIX. Pshaw. -- Dave Close, Compata, Costa Mesa CA +1 714 434 7359 dave@compata.com dhclose@alumni.caltech.edu The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts agree, is by accident. That's where we come in; we're computer professionals. We cause accidents. -- Nathaniel Borenstein From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 5 21:21:33 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g2656uC14755 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:06:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com (mail-blue.research.att.com [135.207.30.102]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g2656s014751 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:06:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.research.att.com (postal.research.att.com [135.207.23.30]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67AC34CE2A for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 00:06:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com ([135.207.39.165]) by postal.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA09974 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 00:02:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C85A3E1.30109@research.att.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 00:06:41 -0500 From: Andrew Hume User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: sage-members-digest V2 #795 References: <200203051000.g25A01H00236@usenix.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-Usenix-Metrics: voyager 1010; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk trey, thanks for the reply; it was a good answer. independently of what others answered, there may well arise situations where actions for the good of USENIX might not be so good for SAGE, and in those cases, you're primary repsonsibility would be to USENIX. -- Andrew Hume (best -> Telework) +1 732-886-1886 andrew@research.att.com (Work) +1 973-360-8651 AT&T Labs - Research; member of USENIX and SAGE From sage-members-owner@usenix.org Tue Mar 5 21:36:13 2002 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) id g265PFq15093 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:25:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com (mail-blue.research.att.com [135.207.30.102]) by usenix.org (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g265PEt15089 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:25:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from postal.research.att.com (postal.research.att.com [135.207.23.30]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A13284CE34 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 00:25:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com ([135.207.39.165]) by postal.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA10226 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 00:21:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C85A82D.2000601@research.att.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 00:25:01 -0500 From: Andrew Hume User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [SAGE] Re: sage-m