From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  1 05:16:27 2000
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From: "Gilliland, James     (EN) 5980" <jgilliland@cyprus.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: *ping*
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 06:15:37 -0700 
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Very quiet.  Very boring (which is good, in this case).

gil

--------------------
Gil Gilliland
Oracle / Unix / Perl
Cyprus Amax Minerals
jgilliland@cyprus.com 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Benjy Feen [mailto:benjy@feen.com]
>Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 2:57 AM
>To: sage-members@usenix.org
>Subject: *ping*
>
>
>So, er, um, how's everyone doing?  
>
>Has anyone experienced any Y2K issues in the field more critical than 
>"date on man pages may be formatted incorrectly"?  
>
>--
>Benjy Feen | benjy@monkeybagel.com | http://www.monkeybagel.com
>--
>
>


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  1 07:52:40 2000
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From: Mike Knell <mike.knell@cs.tcd.ie>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: *ping* 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 01 Jan 2000 06:15:37 MST."
	<E25C2CDD60A5D21191AF00A0C99960F9018EAC91@enexnt01.cyprus.com> 
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> Very quiet.  Very boring (which is good, in this case).

Very quiet. Not a hiccup from any of my babies, by the look of things -
checked this morning and everything seems just fine.

What the lack of major Y2K problems worldwide means, of course, is that 
the lower-wattage sections of society are now asking why we wasted all
this money on this non-existent Y2K bug, only to have nothing happen
when the clock rolled over.. like, what did they _expect_? A giant
Millennium Bug emerging from the seas off Washington to be battled by
a cybernetically-enhanced Bill Gates?

Happy New Year (London was full last night, whoa..)

Mike

-- 
Computer Science System Administrator, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland
       mike.knell@cs.tcd.ie -=- http://www.cs.tcd.ie/Mike.Knell/


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  1 09:52:32 2000
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Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 12:52:24 -0500
From: Joseph S D Yao <jsdy@tux.org>
To: Benjy Feen <benjy@feen.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: *ping*
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On Fri, Dec 31, 1999 at 01:56:35AM -0800, Benjy Feen wrote:
> So, er, um, how's everyone doing?  
> 
> Has anyone experienced any Y2K issues in the field more critical than 
> "date on man pages may be formatted incorrectly"?  
> 
> --
> Benjy Feen | benjy@monkeybagel.com | http://www.monkeybagel.com
> --

Elm 2.4*something with MIME/PGP patches shows the year as "100".  2.5.2
doesn't have this bug.  Nor can I find the MIME/PGP patches for it.  But
the fixes are retroportable and obvious.

And, as you can see, I'm using 'mutt' ...

Critical?  I don't know, do you sort important incoming mail
chronologically?  ;-)

-- 
/*********************************************************************\
**
** Joe Yao				jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao
**
\*********************************************************************/


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  1 10:55:01 2000
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Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 10:54:32 -0800
From: Mark Seiden <mis@seiden.com>
To: Joseph S D Yao <jsdy@tux.org>
Cc: Benjy Feen <benjy@feen.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: *ping*
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On Sat, Jan 01, 2000 at 12:52:24PM -0500, Joseph S D Yao wrote:
> 
> Elm 2.4*something with MIME/PGP patches shows the year as "100".  2.5.2
> doesn't have this bug.  Nor can I find the MIME/PGP patches for it.  But
> the fixes are retroportable and obvious.
> 
> And, as you can see, I'm using 'mutt' ...
> 
> Critical?  I don't know, do you sort important incoming mail
> chronologically?  ;-)
> 
> -- 
> /*********************************************************************\
> **
> ** Joe Yao				jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao
> **
> \*********************************************************************/

i sort my incoming mail in mailbox order (unsorted) since clients can
have strange ideas of the date where they are.

the version of mutt i'm using is mis-displaying mail sent with the
date: 1 Jan 00
(from an oldish and possibly unpatched sun) as being sent "feb 07".





-- 
mark seiden, mis@seiden.com, 1-(650) 592 8559 (voice) Pacific Time Zone


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  1 11:28:01 2000
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:Very quiet.  Very boring (which is good, in this case).

We had a "y2k bug."  Yep, a very important one.  The date on our
main web site, generated by a perl script from Matt's Script Archive, 
rolled over to the year 19100.  :-)

Of course, the $Year variable was being set by saying "if ($Year > 95) 
{ print '19$Year' };", and for whatever reason it was rolling 99 to
100.  My quick fix was to change $Year to gnu date.  Then we promptly 
went back to watching the fireworks show over Lake Michigan and drinking 
champagne.  


-- 
sabrina  downard ~ Madness takes its toll.  Please have exact change.
viv@ziggurat.org ~ Soapmaker's Resources: http://www.ziggurat.org/soap/

"You know, the weirdest thing happened to me the other day. I happened
 to turn on MTV, and they were playing a music video!" -- "Weird Al" Yankovic



From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  1 11:58:23 2000
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From: "Todd Williams" <todd@mscsoftware.com>
Message-Id: <10001011158.ZM22510@canismajor.is.macsch.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 11:58:02 -0800
In-Reply-To: Joseph S D Yao <jsdy@tux.org> "Re: *ping*" (Oct 12,  1:12)
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On Oct 12,  1:12, Joseph S D Yao wrote:
> 
> Elm 2.4*something with MIME/PGP patches shows the year as "100".

Interesting.  The only Y2K problem I've found so far is that Z-Mail 3.2.1
lists incoming mail from Jan 1 2000 as having the date "Oct 11".
I haven't investigated further since this is a minor problem on an
old version of software.  But how it gets Oct 11 from Jan 1 intrigues me...

Todd Williams                                    Manager, IT Business Systems
MSC.Software Corporation,   815 Colorado Boulevard,   Los Angeles, CA   90041
todd.williams@mscsoftware.com                                   (323)259-4973
geek  n. : a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usu.
includes biting the head off a live chicken or snake  -Webster's New Collegiate


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  1 12:17:32 2000
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From: Eric Allman <eric@Sendmail.ORG>
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Subject: Re: *ping* 
In-reply-to: Mail from "Todd Williams" <todd@mscsoftware.com> 
	dated Sat, 01 Jan 2000 11:58:02 PST
	<10001011158.ZM22510@canismajor.is.macsch.com> 
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Fairly easy.  consider the date 010100 (January 1, 2000).  Now consider
what happens when 00 becomes 100 -- 101100 -- October 11.

eric


============= In Reply To: ===========================================
: From:  "Todd Williams" <todd@mscsoftware.com>
: Subject:  Re: *ping*
: Date:  Sat, 1 Jan 2000 11:58:02 -0800

: On Oct 12,  1:12, Joseph S D Yao wrote:
: > 
: > Elm 2.4*something with MIME/PGP patches shows the year as "100".
: 
: Interesting.  The only Y2K problem I've found so far is that Z-Mail 3.2.1
: lists incoming mail from Jan 1 2000 as having the date "Oct 11".
: I haven't investigated further since this is a minor problem on an
: old version of software.  But how it gets Oct 11 from Jan 1 intrigues me...
: 
: Todd Williams                                    Manager, IT Business Systems
: MSC.Software Corporation,   815 Colorado Boulevard,   Los Angeles, CA   90041
: todd.williams@mscsoftware.com                                   (323)259-4973
: geek  n. : a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usu.
: includes biting the head off a live chicken or snake  -Webster's New Collegia
te




From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  1 13:30:20 2000
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Subject: Elm and year 100 (was RE:ping)
In-Reply-To: <10001011158.ZM22510@canismajor.is.macsch.com> from Todd Williams
	at "Jan 1, 0 11:58:02 am"
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On Oct 12,  1:12, Joseph S D Yao wrote:
>> 
>> Elm 2.4*something with MIME/PGP patches shows the year as "100".

hello Joseph

yep, I fixed it quick (and dirty probably)

Here you have it:

elm2.4.ME+.31/lib/getarpdate.c:

/*

   if ((year = curr_tm.tm_year) < 100)
       year += 1900;
*/
        year = curr_tm.tm_year;
        year += 1900;


The localtime function gives back a struct where tm_year is /* years since 1900 */


Regards


Wim



-- 
Wim Peeters     

System Manager

SONY Suprastructure Center Europe                     (SUPC-E)
SONY Network Solutions and Services Europe - Brussels (NSSE-Brussels)
Sint Stevens Woluwestraat 55 (Rue de Woluwe-Saint-Etienne)
1130 Brussel (Bruxelles), Belgium
Telephone: +32 2 724 86 42 Telefax: +32 2 726 26 86
e-mail: Wim.Peeters@sonycom.com


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  1 14:54:33 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: *ping* 
In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 01 Jan 2000 15:52:29 GMT.
	<200001011552.PAA28408@little.cs.tcd.ie> 
Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 14:54:25 -0800
From: Lee Ann Goldstein <leeann@rand.org>
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--Your message was: (from Mike Knell)
> 
> What the lack of major Y2K problems worldwide means, of course, is that 
> the lower-wattage sections of society are now asking why we wasted all
> this money on this non-existent Y2K bug, only to have nothing happen

Just tell them that it was a non-event because the geeks saved the world.

> when the clock rolled over.. like, what did they _expect_? A giant
> Millennium Bug emerging from the seas off Washington to be battled by
> a cybernetically-enhanced Bill Gates?

Heh. The bug would've won. ;)

--
Lee Ann Goldstein, Computer Services
RAND Corp., Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
leeann@rand.org


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  1 18:18:48 2000
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From: David Alban <alban@datawire.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Personal y2k issue [was: *ping*]
Message-ID: <20000101181840.A2658@datawire.com>
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At 1999/12/31/01:56 -0800 Benjy Feen <benjy@feen.com> wrote:
> So, er, um, how's everyone doing?  
> 
> Has anyone experienced any Y2K issues in the field more critical than 
> "date on man pages may be formatted incorrectly"?  

Not "in the field", but...

I have a y2k issue at home which impacts me greatly.

I was using X11-based "xfinans" as my personal finance program (which
I liked, because it stored its data in easily readable ascii files,
on which I could run homegrown scripts).   Although xfinans stopped
being supported a few years back, it claimed it was y2k compliant in
that it had: 

  - Refined handling of date-input around the turn of centuries; when
    only two digits are given for the year, the date is assumed to be
    within +/- 50 years of the current time. This allows you to use
    e.g. '01 for 2001 now, and to use '95 for 1995 in year 2000. Of
    course you can still use four digits to supply dates outside this
    range.  

And, indeed, for the last few months I've been projecting my finances
through the end of April 2000 without any problem.  It handled post-1999
dates with no trouble.  Of course, now that it is "post-1999" it can't
handle *any* date without trouble.  (Yeah, I should have set the system
date forward, but I didn't...)

So I downloaded checkbook balancer version 0.79 (the latest I could
find).  It seems to be suffering from a bug some perl programmers have
unwittingly included in their code:  instead of treating the year
returned by the list context time functions as an integer to be added
to the number 1900, it seems to be treating it as a string to be
added to the end of the string "19".  (In the test account I made,
following my installation of cbb, I noticed the year being stored in
the file as "19100".) 

So can anyone recommend a good X11-based program with which one can do
personal finances?  (Or does anyone have info on whether cbb is still
being updated, and if so, if y2k fixes will be forthcoming?)

Thanks!
David

P.S.  Although this isn't exactly a work-related sysadmin question,
      I figure there have to be sysadmin types on this list who use
      X11 programs for their personal finances...or am I a
      trailblazing pioneer? :-)
-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  1 18:36:54 2000
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Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:35:58 -0500 (EST)
From: "Seanna Watson" <seanna@nortelnetworks.com>
Reply-To: "Seanna Watson" <seanna@nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Re: *ping*
To: Lee Ann Goldstein <leeann@rand.org>
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In message "Re: *ping*", 
"Lee Ann Goldstein" <leeann@rand.org> writes:

>
>--Your message was: (from Mike Knell)
>> 
>> What the lack of major Y2K problems worldwide means, of course, is that 
>> the lower-wattage sections of society are now asking why we wasted all
>> this money on this non-existent Y2K bug, only to have nothing happen
>

Heard tonight on the CBC (Canada) news that some high-profile US
lawyers (!) were suggesting that since nothing happened, perhaps it
was all hype.  I think people are having difficulty distinguishing
between the survival preparedness (for which you end up with a
basement full of bottled water and canned food which you need to
unload), and the software preparedness (for which you end up with
computers full of fixed software).

>Just tell them that it was a non-event because the geeks saved the world.
>
I have been telling laypersons for sometime that the computer folks
were hoping that January 1, 2000 would go down as the biggest non-event
in recent history.  Unfortunately, the argument that the geeks saved 
the world, though true, sounds too much like the joke about the 
statue that the homeowners put on the front lawn to protect their
property from marauding elephants.  ("But there aren't any
elephants around here." "See, it works!")

=======================
Seanna Watson
Nortel Networks
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada







From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  1 19:41:12 2000
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Subject: Re: Personal y2k issue [was: *ping*]
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  my ricoh xr databack 2 thinks it is 1/1/78....

clues anyone?



From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan  2 09:31:16 2000
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From: "Bradley M. Kuhn" <bkuhn@ebb.org>
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Sabrina Downard wrote:
> :Very quiet.  Very boring (which is good, in this case).
 
> We had a "y2k bug."  Yep, a very important one.  The date on our main web
> site, generated by a perl script from Matt's Script Archive, rolled over
> to the year 19100.  :-)

Eek!  Avoid "Matt's Script Archive".  There are tons of buggy CGI's in
there.  In fact, at "Yet Another Perl Conference" in June 1999, someone gave
a talk on bad Perl programs, and many of the examples were easily recognized
as Matt's Script Archive stuff.

-- 
         -  bkuhn@ebb.org  -  Bradley M. Kuhn  -  bkuhn@gnu.org  -
                          http://www.ebb.org/bkuhn

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From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan  2 10:31:35 2000
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Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 13:31:27 -0500 (EST)
From: anderson johnston <ajohns5@alumni.umbc.edu>
Reply-To: afj@alumni.princeton.edu
To: extasia@mindspring.com
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Personal y2k issue [was: *ping*]
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On Sat, 1 Jan 2000, David Alban wrote:

> 
> So I downloaded checkbook balancer version 0.79 (the latest I could
> find).  It seems to be suffering from a bug some perl programmers have
> unwittingly included in their code:  instead of treating the year
> returned by the list context time functions as an integer to be added
> to the number 1900, it seems to be treating it as a string to be
> added to the end of the string "19".  (In the test account I made,
> following my installation of cbb, I noticed the year being stored in
> the file as "19100".) 
> 
> 
> P.S.  Although this isn't exactly a work-related sysadmin question,
>       I figure there have to be sysadmin types on this list who use
>       X11 programs for their personal finances...or am I a
>       trailblazing pioneer? :-)

I don't use X11 to watch my money disappear, but I did have problems with
exactly that perl bug in some legacy code written by my second-order
predecessor.  It seems to be cropping up all over the list.  If anyone has
perl code that builds a four-digit year it's probably a good idea to check
and make sure the coder didn't just stick a "19" on the front of the
(until yesterday) two digits that perl returned. 


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From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan  2 10:51:08 2000
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Subject: Re: *ping*
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9912310149450.30172-100000@lucien.blight.com>
	<20000101125224.A14973@gwyn.tux.org>
In-Reply-To: Joseph S D Yao's message of "Sat, 1 Jan 2000 12:52:24 -0500"
From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>
Organization: The Eyrie
Date: 02 Jan 2000 10:50:57 -0800
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Joseph S D Yao <jsdy@tux.org> writes:

> Elm 2.4*something with MIME/PGP patches shows the year as "100".  2.5.2
> doesn't have this bug.  Nor can I find the MIME/PGP patches for it.  But
> the fixes are retroportable and obvious.

We've had a report that INN is accepting and propagating messages with a
Date header showing a year of 1900.  Whether or not this is a Y2K bug is
somewhat arguable; my personal inclination is that the chances are high
enough that such a message was actually sent in 2000 by a broken
newsreader that accepting it may just be being generous in what one
accepts.  But it does potentially do slightly weird things in newsreaders
sorting by date.

Other than that and elm, the only other problems we've run into are failed
timestamps in a very old version of UMich slapd (LDAP server) that we plan
on retiring soon anyway and some problems with replication on our current
Netscape LDAP servers due to root certs expiring (not a Y2K bug, but a Y2K
related issue).

Note for people who set expiration dates:  January 1st is really not a
good time to set the expiration for, even if it appeals to someone's sense
of aesthetics, since it's right after a very long holiday and therefore
advance warning has to be considerably more advanced than normal.  Please
consider March or May or September or some other date instead.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)         <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan  2 10:55:27 2000
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In-Reply-To: Sabrina Downard's message of "Sat,
	1 Jan 2000 13:27:40 -0600 (CST)"
From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>
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Sabrina Downard <viv@ziggurat.org> writes:

> We had a "y2k bug."  Yep, a very important one.  The date on our main
> web site, generated by a perl script from Matt's Script Archive, rolled
> over to the year 19100.  :-)

Most experienced Perl programmers have a very dim view of the general
quality of scripts in Matt's Script Archive.  Many of them have precisely
this bug and have for a long time, and I believe the author has even been
informed of this in the past and hasn't bothered to fix it.

> Of course, the $Year variable was being set by saying "if ($Year > 95) 
> { print '19$Year' };", and for whatever reason it was rolling 99 to
> 100.

It's the documented behavior of localtime, in both the system C libraries
and inherited by Perl.  The correct way of deriving a four-digit date from
the return of localtime in both Perl and C is to add 1900.  The most
common Y2K bug in Perl scripts is caused by programmers being more subtle
than they should be and not reading the localtime documentation.  They
assume that localtime is returning a two digit year when it's explicitly
documented as returning the number of years since 1900.

(It would have been much better and less confusing for the world had the C
library functions always just returned four-digit dates.  Ah well.)

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)         <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan  2 10:58:06 2000
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From: anderson johnston <ajohns5@alumni.umbc.edu>
Reply-To: afj@alumni.princeton.edu
To: Seanna Watson <seanna@nortelnetworks.com>
cc: Lee Ann Goldstein <leeann@rand.org>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: *ping*
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On Sat, 1 Jan 2000, Seanna Watson wrote:

> In message "Re: *ping*", 
> "Lee Ann Goldstein" <leeann@rand.org> writes:
> 
> >
> >--Your message was: (from Mike Knell)
> >> 
> >> What the lack of major Y2K problems worldwide means, of course, is that 
> >> the lower-wattage sections of society are now asking why we wasted all
> >> this money on this non-existent Y2K bug, only to have nothing happen
> >
> 
> Heard tonight on the CBC (Canada) news that some high-profile US
> lawyers (!) were suggesting that since nothing happened, perhaps it
> was all hype.  I think people are having difficulty distinguishing
> between the survival preparedness (for which you end up with a
> basement full of bottled water and canned food which you need to
> unload), and the software preparedness (for which you end up with
> computers full of fixed software).
> 

Most of the work that's been done in the name of Y2K, IMHO, has not really
been technically driven.  We've been doing "due diligence" here, i.e.,
designing, documenting and performing tests of things that we know
perfectly well are going to work - or at least won't create serious
problems if they don't.  The effort is being driven in large part *BY*
lawyers. 

A lawyer's job is to protect his employer from legal "exposure".  Envision
a generic bad thing happening.  It really doesn't matter what.  Someone
files suit against you claming that the bad thing was due to your
negligence in preparing for Y2K.  The claim is insane but you - the lawyer
- are left trying to prove a negative.  Can you convice a jury?  Maybe. 
Better to avoid the whole thing.  Have documentation on hand showing that
you took "reasonable" precautions for Y2K.  Several state legislatures
have been passing bills to limit liability if such "due diligence" is
performed.

By the way, it's unseasonably warm and pleasant in Baltimore now.  An
absence of Apocalypses has been noted.  Has anyone heard from Robert
Lavelle, millenialist spammer extraordinary (YOU HAVE 3 MONTHS TO LIVE!,
YOU HAVE BEEN FOUND GUILTY! and so forth)? 

What are these guys going to do when they realize that the rent was due by
Jan. 1 after all? 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    _/                   /_           |	Andy Johnston
   _/_/                  /_           |	
  _/  _/    _/_/_/   /_/_/_  /_   /_  |	ajohns5@alumni.umbc.edu
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From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan  2 11:06:55 2000
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Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 14:06:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
To: extasia@mindspring.com
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Personal y2k issue [was: *ping*]
In-Reply-To: <20000101181840.A2658@datawire.com>
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On Sat, 1 Jan 2000, David Alban wrote:
> P.S.  Although this isn't exactly a work-related sysadmin question,
>       I figure there have to be sysadmin types on this list who use
>       X11 programs for their personal finances...or am I a
>       trailblazing pioneer? :-)

Heh, I have a pack of pencils that say "Y2K Compliant" on them...

-Adam

Rutherford, NJ USA  Free speech online!_/
http://westnet.com/~levins/    _______/ There are few problems that cannot
<*> __________________________/         be solved with a scream and a good
-O /                                              ten yards' start.



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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Personal y2k issue; *ping*
In-reply-to: David Alban's message of Sat,
	01 Jan 2000 18:18:40 PST <20000101181840.A2658@datawire.com> 
Organization: mental images GmbH & Co. KG, Berlin, Germany
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() P.S.  Although this isn't exactly a work-related sysadmin question,
()       I figure there have to be sysadmin types on this list who use
()       X11 programs for their personal finances...or am I a
()       trailblazing pioneer? :-)

I guess xspread can be persuaded to do what you need.

My very last Y1K999 problem (TM) was a dying Quantum disk of an
old HP snake.  Got a call on new year's eve because people were
worried about the circular saw noise coming out of the computer
room...

    Ciao, Lobo



From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan  2 13:18:28 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Personal y2k issue [was: *ping*]
References: <Pine.SGI.3.96.1000102132759.17562A-100000@alumni.umbc.edu>
In-Reply-To: anderson johnston's message of "Sun,
	2 Jan 2000 13:31:27 -0500 (EST)"
From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>
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anderson johnston <ajohns5@alumni.umbc.edu> writes:

> I don't use X11 to watch my money disappear, but I did have problems
> with exactly that perl bug in some legacy code written by my
> second-order predecessor.  It seems to be cropping up all over the list.
> If anyone has perl code that builds a four-digit year it's probably a
> good idea to check and make sure the coder didn't just stick a "19" on
> the front of the (until yesterday) two digits that perl returned.

I hate to pick on this point, but to me one of the important aspects of
being a system administrator is accurate diagnosis and assignment of
problems.  I therefore have a hard time letting things like this stand
without a correction.

This is no more a Perl bug than it is a C bug.  If the documented behavior
of localtime, which has remained unchanged since the early days of the C
library is to be called a bug, it's still unfair to place the blame on
Perl.  The tm_year field is epoch-based; it returns the number of years
since 1900 AD and always has.  If you found a system in which it returned
00, that system would have an extremely serious Y2K bug.

Moral:  Always read the documentation for interfaces that you're using.
Just calling localtime, seeing that it returns a two-digit year *this*
year, and drawing conclusions from that paves the road to subtle and
difficult bugs.  For another good example in this regard, the RCS file
specification uses two-digit years up through 1999, and then begins using
four-digit years.  This may be counterintuitive, but it is not a bug, nor
does it cause Y2K problems when used properly.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)         <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan  2 15:07:39 2000
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Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:07:31 -0800
From: David Alban <alban@datawire.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Some cbb y2k info
Message-ID: <20000102150731.C11539@datawire.com>
Reply-To: extasia@mindspring.com
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At 2000/01/01/18:18 -0800 David Alban <alban@datawire.com> wrote:
>                     (Or does anyone have info on whether cbb is still
> being updated, and if so, if y2k fixes will be forthcoming?)

Data on cbb y2k fixes can be found at:

  http://www.geocrawler.com/mail/thread.php3?subject=%5Bcbb-devel%5D+Y2K+fixups&list=773&c=3

And on <http://www.geocrawler.com/lists/3/SourceForge/773/0/3057264>:

> "Curtis L. Olson" wrote:

> > If you can`t try these changes for one reason or another, remember
> > that CBB does store a 4 digit year internally, so you can always
> > enter the full year and things will work right ... however, some of
> > the defaults and input acceleration stuff is broke in the current
> > release, but hopefully fixed with these latest changes.

(Thanks, Dennis.)

David
-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.


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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Solaris 2.6 not y2k ready (?)
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I've read that Sun isn't willing to claim that Solaris 2.6 is free of
year-2000-related defects. Has anyone seen anything about 2.6 that would
lead them to think that it does have such a problem?




From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan  2 15:09:18 2000
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On Sun, 2 Jan 2000, anderson johnston wrote:
> I don't use X11 to watch my money disappear, but I did have problems with

If you do use X11 to watch your money go away, like me and David Alban and
few  others I know on this list, try using cbb-0.8 available from public
cvs:

cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.cbb.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/cbb login
Just hit enter on password

cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.cbb.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/cbb checkout cbb-0.8

Dennis Gerasimov                                    office  301-614-5070
Sr. Systems Administrator,                     denis@tsdis.gsfc.nasa.gov
MTI                                   personal e-mail denis@datawire.com
#include <std_disclaimer.h>               http://www.datawire.com/~denis




From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan  2 16:14:44 2000
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From: Forrest Houston <fhouston@east.isi.edu>
To: "Mark R. Lindsey" <mark@vielle.datasys.net>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Solaris 2.6 not y2k ready (?)
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Out of curiosity where did you read that?  

According to: http://www.sun.com/y2000/enhancements.html

"Solaris operating environments (7, 2.6, 2.5.1, 2.5, 2.4, and 2.3) are
Year 2000 compliant with free modifications available via a download from
SunSolve Online."

Unfortunately I'm not running 2.6 on anything right now, so I can't tell
you if it's giving me any problems or not ;) 

Forrest Houston
USC/ISI East 

On Sun, 2 Jan 2000, Mark R. Lindsey wrote:

> I've read that Sun isn't willing to claim that Solaris 2.6 is free of
> year-2000-related defects. Has anyone seen anything about 2.6 that would
> lead them to think that it does have such a problem?
> 
> 
> 



From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan  2 16:38:54 2000
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It was a while back (>6 months) in some of Sun's printed literature,
I believe. Solaris is such a small part of our operation that I haven't
pursued it further, but it's nice to know that they're willing to speak
for versions <2.6.

Forrest Houston said:
: Out of curiosity where did you read that?  
: 
: According to: http://www.sun.com/y2000/enhancements.html
: 
: "Solaris operating environments (7, 2.6, 2.5.1, 2.5, 2.4, and 2.3) are
: Year 2000 compliant with free modifications available via a download from
: SunSolve Online."
: 
: Unfortunately I'm not running 2.6 on anything right now, so I can't tell
: you if it's giving me any problems or not ;) 
: 
: Forrest Houston
: USC/ISI East 
: 
: On Sun, 2 Jan 2000, Mark R. Lindsey wrote:
: 
: > I've read that Sun isn't willing to claim that Solaris 2.6 is free of
: > year-2000-related defects. Has anyone seen anything about 2.6 that would
: > lead them to think that it does have such a problem?
: > 
: > 
: > 






From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan  2 18:03:56 2000
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From: LuftHans <LuftHans@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Solaris 2.6 not y2k ready (?)
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On Sun, 2 Jan 2000, Mark R. Lindsey wrote:

> It was a while back (>6 months) in some of Sun's printed literature,
> I believe. Solaris is such a small part of our operation that I haven't
> pursued it further, but it's nice to know that they're willing to speak
> for versions <2.6.

There were newer patches for 2.51 and SunOS 4.1.4 when I went at it at the
beginning of Dec. Don't know how they held out as I took another position
since then, but they haven't been calling to yell at me for the Suns going
down ;-).

The original patching we did for 4.1.4 was interesting. I'd never worked with
it and we decided to bring in a Sun consultant to make sure everything turned
out right as we had no test machines or backup box for this particular
function. He hadn't worked with SunOS for years and had to call their internal
tech support line several times, but it all went in just fine.

ciao,

der.hans

> Forrest Houston said:
> : Out of curiosity where did you read that?  
> : 
> : According to: http://www.sun.com/y2000/enhancements.html
> : 
> : "Solaris operating environments (7, 2.6, 2.5.1, 2.5, 2.4, and 2.3) are
> : Year 2000 compliant with free modifications available via a download from
> : SunSolve Online."
> : 
> : Unfortunately I'm not running 2.6 on anything right now, so I can't tell
> : you if it's giving me any problems or not ;) 
> : 
> : Forrest Houston
> : USC/ISI East 
> : 
> : On Sun, 2 Jan 2000, Mark R. Lindsey wrote:
> : 
> : > I've read that Sun isn't willing to claim that Solaris 2.6 is free of
> : > year-2000-related defects. Has anyone seen anything about 2.6 that would
> : > lead them to think that it does have such a problem?
> : > 
> : > 
> : > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

# +++++++++++=================================+++++++++++ #
#                   LuftHans@asu.edu                      #
#            http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/              #
#        Magic is science unexplained. - der.hans         #
# ===========+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=========== #



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	Dated Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:59:34 PST.
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DNS Ports: A bit about Name Resolution Protocols
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> is the following true or false?
 
> a client talks to a nameserver on port 53/tcp.  the nameserver
> answers back on a random udp port greater than 1023.

	It is false.  An FAQ that will answer your question 
	is at:

		http://www.intac.com/~cdp/cptd-faq/section2.html#ports

	... However, I'll also add some detail here.

	First point: normal DNS resolution occurs over UDP.

	The usual sequence for a UNIX client is something like
	this:

	The application executes a call to "gethostbyname()"
	(a standard library function, which is linked into 
	the libc on almost any UNIX platform).  gethostbyname()
	in glibc (Linux libc version 6.x) is implemented to
	look at the contents of your /etc/nsswitch.conf file,
	and apply a set of rules from that to load NSS (name
	services systems) libraries.  Most Linux systems are 
	configured to use libnsscompat.so --- which uses
	NIS/NIS+, DNS and traditional UNIX files (/etc/hosts,
	/etc/networks).  You can see all of the NSS libraries
	on most Linux systems using the command:

		ls /lib/libnss*

	... although you might have to look at the contents of
	/etc/ld.so.conf for a list of other directories in 
	which other libnss libraries might exist.  

	Entries in /etc/nsswitch.conf will refer to these 
	libraries (take the basename of the library file and
	trim off the "libnss" prefix to relate library name 
	to the nsswitch.conf keyword).

	Before I get back to describing the DNS IP protocols
	(you question) I'll mention that all this complexity and
	redirection is actually useful since it allows an admin
	to configure his Linux (or other GNU system) to use
	files, DNS, NIS, NIS+, as well as more obscure Hesiod,
	and new LDAP and NDS naming/directory services without
	having to recompiling any of the standard utilities on
	any system.

	It's also important to realize that the Linux and UNIX
	doesn't have any sort of "resolver daemon" nor is this
	a function of the kernel (a system call or device driver
	or anything like that).  This is just a set of libraries
	to which almost all other applications are linked.
 
	When the system is configured to use DNS (as they
	almost all are) then the library functions open and
	read the /etc/resolv.conf file.  This gives a list
	of DNS servers to which the resolver will direct its
	initial queries.

	The query will by over UDP, with an arbitrary unprivileged
	source port and a destination port of 53 (which is the
	DNS query port listed in your /etc/services file).  

	The initial response should come from one of the DNS servers 
	as listed in /etc/resolv.conf, and be directed back to 
	(have a destination port equal to) the source of the query.
	The source of the response should also be port 53.

	Notice that I mentioned "initial" queries and responses.
	That's because the DNS protocol allows a server to 
	refer the client to some other DNS server.  Thus there
	may be an initial response that amounts to: "I don't
	know, go ask ..."

	Thus the standard packet filtering rules that you're 
	thinking about require one to allow UDP traffic from
	port 53 to any unprivileged port in your domain.

	Naturally this seems a bit too loose.  One approach is
	to have the firewall track outstanding DNS requests
	maintaining a context state and only permitting responses
	back to host/port pairs that have outstanding DNS queries.
	This is call "stateful" packet inspection and it is one
	of the features that distinguishes a "firewall" from a 
	simple "packet filter."

	(Actually I hate to use the term "firewall" because it
	is so nebulous.  However, I have to simplify a bit or
	I can't say anything).

	A better approach is to configure your caching name
	server(s) so they never forward clients to other name
	servers.  Thus you can have one or more "sacrificial" 
	caching nameservers on your perimeter network, allow 
	all DNS traffic to those, and have a set of rules on
	the interior router/packet filters that allows all 
	DNS traffic from those to your hosts.

	This is the architecture I recommend.
	
> i can't seem to find the answer in various o'reilly books.  of
> course, someone walked off with the DNS one.
 
> the reason i ask is that i'm trying to write a cisco access list
> which blocks all traffic to my subnet.  i still want to talk to
> the nameservers though, which are on another subnet.  note: i
> don't even have access to the router.  i'm just trying to make it
> easy for the overworked network guys to put this filter in place.
 
> DNS only seems to work if the following line is in place...
 
> access-list ### permit udp host ip.of.name.server any gt 1023
 
> ---matt

	You could restrict this to require that the packets
	come *from* port 53.

	Implicitly you are trying to use the architecture that 
	I've recommended above.  You're trying to limit the
	DNS traffic that comes into your subnet so that it 
	all comes from a particular name server. 

	Note that this requires that you configure your caching
	name server so that it never "forwards" DNS requests 
	(tells the client to go ask a different server).  This
	is done by configuring the caching name server with
	it's own "forwarders" directive (providing it with a 
	list of some nearby "better connected" nameservers), and
	by using the "slave" directive in BIND 8.x.


	Hope that explains it O.K.  If not you might consider
	posting a more detailed question to "Ask Mr. DNS" at
	Acme Byte and Wire (http://www.acmebw.com/askmr.htm).


--
Jim Dennis,		                  The Linux Gazette "Answer Guy"
Linux Gazette is Published under the GPL     http://www.linuxgazette.com
			    answerguy@ssc.com


From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan  2 20:11:03 2000
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	Dated Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:33:40 PST.
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DNS Ports: Answers from another Recipient
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> DNS is udp not tcp
 
> Zone transfers can be tcp.
 
> Request:
> client (libresolv) random above 1023 -> server (named) port 53
 
> Response:
> server port 53 -> client same port that request was sent from
 
 
> name server to name server:
> 53 -> 53
> 53 <- 53
 
 Mr. Robert Hajime Lanning answered Matt's question before I did.
 However, I didn't see that until I got further through my 
 inbox.

--
Jim Dennis                                             jdennis@linuxcare.com
Linuxcare: Linux Corporate Support Team:            http://www.linuxcare.com


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan  3 05:50:32 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000  8:21 -0600
From: "Richard Gombert" <Richard.Gombert@alltel.com>
Cc: "sage-members@usenix.org" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re[2]: Solaris 2.6 not y2k ready (?)
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     I'm replying to the list so all will see.
     
     We have a couple of very critical systems running 2.6 and these were 
     fully tested and monitored over the rollover. No problems were 
     detected. These are 7x24 systems that are in full production mode 7x24 
     (no downtime) with feeds to other systems every 60 seconds.
     
     Sun released a Y2K tool called SunScan which we used each update to 
     check the systems.
     
     Today is day 3 and still no problems.
     
     Rich Gombert
     Unix Support
     Alltel Information Services


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Solaris 2.6 not y2k ready (?)
Author:  mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. LIndsey) at internet
Date:    01/02/2000 6:38 PM


It was a while back (>6 months) in some of Sun's printed literature,
I believe. Solaris is such a small part of our operation that I haven't 
pursued it further, but it's nice to know that they're willing to speak 
for versions <2.6.
     
Forrest Houston said:
: Out of curiosity where did you read that? 
:
: According to: http://www.sun.com/y2000/enhancements.html 
:
: "Solaris operating environments (7, 2.6, 2.5.1, 2.5, 2.4, and 2.3) are
: Year 2000 compliant with free modifications available via a download from 
: SunSolve Online."
:
: Unfortunately I'm not running 2.6 on anything right now, so I can't tell 
: you if it's giving me any problems or not ;)
:
: Forrest Houston
: USC/ISI East
:
: On Sun, 2 Jan 2000, Mark R. Lindsey wrote: 
:
: > I've read that Sun isn't willing to claim that Solaris 2.6 is free of
: > year-2000-related defects. Has anyone seen anything about 2.6 that would 
: > lead them to think that it does have such a problem?
: >
: >
: >


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan  3 09:23:46 2000
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	Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:23:27 GMT
From: "Secretary" <secretary@sage-wise.org>
To: "SAGE-WISE" <sage-wise@majordomo.onyx.net>, <ucl-linux@ucl.ac.uk>,
	<SAGE-Members@usenix.org>, <gllug@backoffice.ftech.net>,
	<lbc@linuxemporium.co.uk>
Subject: [SAGE-WISE] BoF 11th January 2000
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:23:24 -0000
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SAGE-WISE (The System Administrators' Guild of Wales Ireland Scotland and
England) is
pleased to announce its next BoF session, "Year 2000 war stories - Never
again?"

BoF stands for "Birds of a Feather" and the idea is to have an interactive
and informal
discussion during which people who share an interest talk around a topic.
The hope is
that in a BoF session everyone may have something to contribute and everyone
will learn
from others.

The event will be in the Council and Committee Rooms, University College
London, UK, starting at 19:00h on Tuesday 11th January.

For further details please see
http://www.sage-wise.org/news/bof003.html

For further details about SAGE-WISE, please visit our homepage at
http://www.sage-wise.org/

--
___    __o    Pete Humble, Secretary, SAGE-WISE
  _ \<,_      Email: secretary@sage-wise.org
 (_)/ (_)     Any resemblance between the views expressed here
============= and those SAGE-WISE is pure coincidence.




From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan  3 10:31:33 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 10:31:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Greg Coleman <gleeco@ls.berkeley.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: more y2k issues... [was: *ping*] 
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anybody seen problems with hypermail? v.1.02 appears suspect.


gleeco

G r e g o r y   C o l e m a n 
Letters & Science Computer Resources




From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan  3 11:55:08 2000
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From: "Blanton, Sarah H." <BlantonS@health.missouri.edu>
To: "'Greg Coleman'" <gleeco@ls.berkeley.edu>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: more y2k issues... [was: *ping*] 
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:54:54 -0600 
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The hypermail site http://www.landfield.com/hypermail/ specifically says:

If you are still using 1.02 or 2.03b versions of hypermail, please read the
rest of this message very carefully. 
Older versions of hypermail (2.03b and earlier) are not Y2K compliant!
The older versions of hypermail are not Y2K compliant. The problem is that
all messages after December 31, 1999 have their year changed to 1970 for
sorting purposes. Thus new messages after December 31, 1999 will start
showing up at the top of the date order list instead of the bottom. 
_____________________
Sarah H. Blanton
MU Health Sciences Web Administrator
BlantonS@health.missouri.edu
573-882-1961

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Greg Coleman [SMTP:gleeco@ls.berkeley.edu]
> Sent:	Monday, January 03, 2000 12:31 PM
> To:	sage-members@usenix.org
> Subject:	Re: more y2k issues... [was: *ping*] 
> 
> 
> anybody seen problems with hypermail? v.1.02 appears suspect.
> 
> 
> gleeco
> 
> G r e g o r y   C o l e m a n 
> Letters & Science Computer Resources
> 


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan  3 12:03:19 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 11:46:39 -0800 (PST)
From: "Edward A. Lyon" <EALYON@cisco.com>
Subject: Perl localtime() Problems [was Re: *ping*]
In-reply-to: "Russ Allbery's message dated Sun, 02 Jan 2000 10:55:18 -0800"
	<yl3dsgfgmh.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>
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I must say,

   In all fairness to Matt and others of us who have been using Perl for a
   while, the Version 4 documentation is somewhat to blame:

o  It doesn't explicitly describe what's returned for the year.
   (The Version 5 document says "the year has had 1,900 subtracted from it")

o  Examples show the following use pattern:

	($sec,$min,$hour,$mday,$mon,$year,$wday,$yday,$isdst)
		= localtime(time);
	$month = (January,February,March,April,May,June,
		July,August,September,October,November,December)[$mon];
	 . . . "$month $mday, 19$year" . . .

in response to what Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> wrote:

> Sabrina Downard <viv@ziggurat.org> writes:
>
>> We had a "y2k bug."  Yep, a very important one.  The date on our main
>> web site, generated by a perl script from Matt's Script Archive, rolled
>> over to the year 19100.  :-)
>
> Most experienced Perl programmers have a very dim view of the general
> quality of scripts in Matt's Script Archive.  Many of them have precisely
> this bug and have for a long time, and I believe the author has even been
> informed of this in the past and hasn't bothered to fix it.
>
>> Of course, the $Year variable was being set by saying "if ($Year > 95)
>> { print '19$Year' };", and for whatever reason it was rolling 99 to
>> 100.
>
> It's the documented behavior of localtime, in both the system C libraries
> and inherited by Perl.  The correct way of deriving a four-digit date from
> the return of localtime in both Perl and C is to add 1900.  The most
> common Y2K bug in Perl scripts is caused by programmers being more subtle
> than they should be and not reading the localtime documentation.  They
> assume that localtime is returning a two digit year when it's explicitly
> documented as returning the number of years since 1900.
>
> (It would have been much better and less confusing for the world had the C
> library functions always just returned four-digit dates.  Ah well.)

- Ed Lyon <EALyon@Cisco.Com>, Cisco Systems Inc.


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan  3 13:08:31 2000
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To: "Mark R. LIndsey" <mark@vielle.datasys.net>
CC: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Solaris 2.6 not y2k ready (?)
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Solaris 2.6 out of the box isn't Y2K compliant.  Neither is Solaris 2.7
for that matter (according to Sun).

Sun provides a program called Sunscan 2000 to help you diagnose patches
needed for Y2K problems.  It will also tell you if there is a newer 
revision of a patch you have installed.  All in all it was pretty useful
in our efforts.  

I know In Solaris 2.7 stdperfmeter had some problems, and process
accounting had some problems (but I don't remember if that was 2.6 or
2.7).  

Java has some problems unless you are running the latest and greatest.  

Look for sunscan 2000 on Sun's web site for more info on it.

Chris G.

"Mark R. Lindsey" wrote:
> 
> I've read that Sun isn't willing to claim that Solaris 2.6 is free of
> year-2000-related defects. Has anyone seen anything about 2.6 that would
> lead them to think that it does have such a problem?


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan  3 13:13:50 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 16:09:13 -0500
To: "Edward A. Lyon" <EALYON@cisco.com>
From: Stephen P Potter <spp@colltech.com>
Subject: Re: Perl localtime() Problems [was Re: *ping*]
Cc: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>, sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <01JK9MPRUC1WA23CLS@Cisco.COM>
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	02 Jan 2000 10:55:18 -0800" <yl3dsgfgmh.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>
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At 11:46 AM 1/3/00 -0800, Edward A. Lyon wrote:
>    In all fairness to Matt and others of us who have been using Perl for a
>    while, the Version 4 documentation is somewhat to blame:
>
>o  It doesn't explicitly describe what's returned for the year.
>    (The Version 5 document says "the year has had 1,900 subtracted from it")

The perl 4 documentation hasn't been maintained in almost 10 years (June 
12, 1992).
All documentation since has been much more explicit.  The documentation 
does say
that the results are straight from the C tm structure.  A simple man of 
localtime (the
C function) is very explicit.

>o  Examples show the following use pattern:
>
>         ($sec,$min,$hour,$mday,$mon,$year,$wday,$yday,$isdst)
>                 = localtime(time);
>         $month = (January,February,March,April,May,June,
>                 July,August,September,October,November,December)[$mon];
>         . . . "$month $mday, 19$year" . . .

There is no example in the perl source (any version) that shows 
this.  There is no
example in the Camel or Llama (either version) that shows this.  The Perl 
FAQ for
a long time has had the proper information in it (at least in '94/'95, when 
I was
maintaining it).

There is no excuse for improper coding when there is ample documentation 
available
on how it should be done.  There is even less excuse when the programmer 
has been
notified of the problem but doesn't bother to fix it.

-spp
--
Stephen P Potter     	spp@colltech.com		Ph: 614-766-3653
Senior Consultant	Collective Technologies		Pg: 800-946-4646
			http://www.colltech.com/	      PIN 140-4132
http://www.quixtar.com/ Referral IBO # 2631871		
http://post369.columbus.oh.us/crew.d/members.d/Adults.d/stepot.d/index.html


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan  3 13:56:14 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 13:37:37 -0800 (PST)
From: "Edward A. Lyon" <EALYON@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Perl localtime() Problems [was Re: *ping*]
In-reply-to: "Stephen P Potter's message dated Mon, 03 Jan 2000 16:09:13 -0500"
	<4.2.0.58.20000103160419.009d7830@spp.mail.colltech.com>
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> At 11:46 AM 1/3/00 -0800, Edward A. Lyon wrote:
>>    In all fairness to Matt and others of us who have been using Perl for a
>>    while, the Version 4 documentation is somewhat to blame:
>>
>> o  It doesn't explicitly describe what's returned for the year.
>>    (The Version 5 document says "the year has had 1,900 subtracted from it")
>
> The perl 4 documentation hasn't been maintained in almost 10 years
> (June 12, 1992).  All documentation since has been much more explicit.
> The documentation does say that the results are straight from the C tm
> structure.  A simple man of localtime (the C function) is very explicit.

    Granted, but that's certainly how I got started on the wrong foot with
localtime() use.  Besides, the documentation explicitly suggests that one
not worry about what the tm struct is.

>>o  Examples show the following use pattern:
>>
>>         ($sec,$min,$hour,$mday,$mon,$year,$wday,$yday,$isdst)
>>                 = localtime(time);
>>         $month = (January,February,March,April,May,June,
>>                 July,August,September,October,November,December)[$mon];
>>         . . . "$month $mday, 19$year" . . .
>
> There is no example in the perl source (any version) that shows this.
> There is no example in the Camel or Llama (either version) that shows this.

    Uh, the code excerpt shown was copied exactly from my edition of the
Version 4 Camel book, Programming perl; Copyright 1990; Printed March, 1992;
page 320-321.

> The Perl FAQ for a long time has had the proper information in it
> (at least in '94/'95, when I was maintaining it).

    I gather I inadvertantly stepped on your toes.  My appologies.

> There is no excuse for improper coding when there is ample documentation
> available on how it should be done.

    I concur, but I was trying to show that the documentation has not always
been so ample.  I was certainly pointed in the wrong direction until I read
the Version 5 books.

> There is even less excuse when the programmer has been notified of the
> problem but doesn't bother to fix it.

    I have to agree there, but am ignorant of any details in this case.

- Ed Lyon <EALyon@Cisco.Com>, Cisco Systems


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan  3 16:01:25 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 18:01:05 -0600 (EST)
From: "Marc W. Mengel" <mengel@fnal.gov>
Subject: RE: more y2k issues... [was: *ping*]
In-reply-to: <59EF21868C5BD111AEA9006094515491085B96F5@umhs-mail02.missouri.edu>
To: "Blanton, Sarah H." <BlantonS@health.missouri.edu>
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On Mon, 3 Jan 2000, Blanton, Sarah H. wrote:

> If you are still using 1.02 or 2.03b versions of hypermail, please read the
> rest of this message very carefully. 
> Older versions of hypermail (2.03b and earlier) are not Y2K compliant!
> The older versions of hypermail are not Y2K compliant. The problem is that
> all messages after December 31, 1999 have their year changed to 1970 for
> sorting purposes. Thus new messages after December 31, 1999 will start
> showing up at the top of the date order list instead of the bottom. 

It is actually slightly worse than that, in its attempt to convert
date strings of the form 01/02/00 to seconds since the epoch, it
tries to count *upwards* from 1970 to 1900 to count how many leap
years occur (what was wrong with multiplying by 365.24 and taking
the integer part is beyond me ;-) ) so it counts:
 1970, 1971,...,maxint,-maxint, -maxint+1,...,-1,0,1,2,...,1970
checking for leap years the whole way through, and no doubt finding
quite a few, which is why the net date-in-seconds ends up quite a bit later
than 1900.

So not only does it sort it in the wrong place, it spends an awful lot
of CPU doing so...




From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan  3 16:06:05 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 16:05:53 -0800
From: David Alban <alban@datawire.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Perl localtime() Problems
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Just a reminder that gmtime() is in the same boat as localtime().  
So whatever buggy methods folks have of misusing localtime() can
probably be equally misapplied to gmtime().

-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan  3 16:19:27 2000
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To: "Edward A. Lyon" <EALYON@cisco.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Cc: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Perl localtime() Problems [was Re: *ping*] 
In-reply-to: "Edward A. Lyon"'s message of Mon,
	03 Jan 2000 11:46:39 -0800 (PST) . <01JK9MPRUC1WA23CLS@Cisco.COM> 
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 17:17:56 -0700
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@jhereg.perl.com>
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>   In all fairness to Matt and others of us who have been using Perl for a
>   while, the Version 4 documentation is somewhat to blame:

>o  It doesn't explicitly describe what's returned for the year.
>   (The Version 5 document says "the year has had 1,900 subtracted from it")

The perl4 manpage reads:

    All array elements are numeric, and come straight out of a struct tm.

The Perl manpages of old did not try to reproduce the entire
section 3 manpages on their own.  The localtime(3) manpage
was essential for learning what those values that
came straight out of a struct tm were.


>o  Examples show the following use pattern:

>	($sec,$min,$hour,$mday,$mon,$year,$wday,$yday,$isdst)
>		= localtime(time);
>	$month = (January,February,March,April,May,June,
>		July,August,September,October,November,December)[$mon];
>	 . . . "$month $mday, 19$year" . . .

No such examples occur in the perl4 manpage.   Where did you
get that from?

That doesn't mean no such bugs existed in code, including some very old
perl tools.  But the documentation never suggested that you do that.

--tom


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan  3 16:20:50 2000
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To: "Edward A. Lyon" <EALYON@cisco.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Cc: Stephen P Potter <spp@colltech.com>
Subject: Re: Perl localtime() Problems [was Re: *ping*] 
In-reply-to: "Edward A. Lyon"'s message of Mon,
	03 Jan 2000 13:37:37 -0800 (PST) . <01JK9QNKY25CA23CLS@Cisco.COM> 
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 17:19:27 -0700
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@jhereg.perl.com>
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>    Uh, the code excerpt shown was copied exactly from my edition of the
>Version 4 Camel book, Programming perl; Copyright 1990; Printed March, 1992;
>page 320-321.

Copyright a whole decade ago?  How long is that in Internet time? :-)

--tom


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan  3 16:32:42 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 16:23:26 -0800 (PST)
From: "Edward A. Lyon" <EALYON@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Perl localtime() Problems [was Re: *ping*]
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Mon, 03 Jan 2000 17:19:27 -0700"
	<200001040019.RAA23374@jhereg.perl.com>
To: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@jhereg.perl.com>
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>>     Uh, the code excerpt shown was copied exactly from my edition of the
>> Version 4 Camel book, Programming perl; Copyright 1990; Printed March, 1992;
>> page 320-321.
>
> Copyright a whole decade ago?  How long is that in Internet time? :-)

    A decade is about 70 Internet years, but code written following that
example would be just the sort of legacy code for which Y2K is supposed
to be a problem (the whole thrust of this thread), right?

- EAL


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan  3 16:50:59 2000
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To: "Edward A. Lyon" <EALYON@cisco.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Cc: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@jhereg.perl.com>
Subject: Re: Perl localtime() Problems [was Re: *ping*] 
In-reply-to: "Edward A. Lyon"'s message of Mon,
	03 Jan 2000 16:23:26 -0800 (PST) . <01JK9W4MOBYIA23CLS@Cisco.COM> 
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 17:49:29 -0700
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@jhereg.perl.com>
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I searched the 10-year old thing.  There was *one*
of those bugs, and several examples of code that
does it right via +1900.  This is an issue
for C, C++, Java, and Javascript as well.

--tom


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan  3 17:38:54 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 20:38:31 -0500
From: Sean MacGuire <sean@maclawran.ca>
Subject: Re: Perl localtime() Problems [was Re: *ping*]
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Tom Christiansen wrote:
> 
> >    Uh, the code excerpt shown was copied exactly from my edition of the
> >Version 4 Camel book, Programming perl; Copyright 1990; Printed March, 1992;
> >page 320-321.
> 
> Copyright a whole decade ago?  How long is that in Internet time? :-)
> 
> --tom

Jurassic Era.  When dinosaurs roamed the net.
-- 
Sean MacGuire, Reality Engineer               sean@MacLawran.ca
The Big Brother Ministry of Truth      http://maclawran.ca/sean
icbm --> 45'31.06N-73'35.19W                    +1 514 996 4638
              "Looking down the barrel of another day"


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan  3 17:59:29 2000
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To: Sean MacGuire <sean@maclawran.ca>
Cc: "Edward A. Lyon" <EALYON@cisco.com>, sage-members@usenix.org,
	Stephen P Potter <spp@colltech.com>
Cc: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@jhereg.perl.com>
Subject: Perl and Y2K
In-reply-to: Sean MacGuire's message of Mon, 03 Jan 2000 20:38:31 -0500 .
	<38714F17.BF9E6272@maclawran.ca> 
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 18:57:58 -0700
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I wasn't going to say anything, but I guess this isn't common knowledge.
Here's the README.Y2K from the latest Perl release (_63).  Please pay
special attention to the -DPERL_Y2KWARN configuration option.  It
produces an effect like this:

    % perl -we 'printf "Year is 19%d\n", (localtime)[5]'
    Possible Y2K bug: %d format string following '19' at -e line 1.
    Year is 19100

Interesting, eh?  Another option is to use the
http://www.perl.com/CPAN/authors/Michael_G_Schwern/D-oh-Year-0.04.tar.gz
module.  The author writes about it here: 
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=542686902&fmt=text

Anyway, here's the README.Y2K from _63:

--tom


    The following information about Perl and the year 2000 is a modified
    version of the information that can be found in the Frequently Asked
    Question (FAQ) documents.

    Does Perl have a year 2000 problem?  Is Perl Y2K compliant?

    Short answer: No, Perl does not have a year 2000 problem.  Yes,
	   Perl is Y2K compliant (whatever that means).  The
	   programmers you've hired to use it, however, probably are
	   not.  If you want perl to complain when your programmers
	   create programs with certain types of possible year 2000
	   problems, a build option allows you to turn on warnings.

    Long answer: The question belies a true understanding of the
	   issue.  Perl is just as Y2K compliant as your pencil
	   --no more, and no less.  Can you use your pencil to write
	   a non-Y2K-compliant memo?  Of course you can.  Is that
	   the pencil's fault?  Of course it isn't.

	   The date and time functions supplied with perl (gmtime and
	   localtime) supply adequate information to determine the
	   year well beyond 2000 (2038 is when trouble strikes for
	   32-bit machines).  The year returned by these functions
	   when used in an array context is the year minus 1900.  For
	   years between 1910 and 1999 this happens to be a 2-digit
	   decimal number. To avoid the year 2000 problem simply do
	   not treat the year as a 2-digit number.  It isn't.

	   When gmtime() and localtime() are used in scalar context
	   they return a timestamp string that contains a fully-
	   expanded year.  For example, $timestamp =
	   gmtime(1005613200) sets $timestamp to "Tue Nov 13 01:00:00
	   2001".  There's no year 2000 problem here.

	   That doesn't mean that Perl can't be used to create non-
	   Y2K compliant programs.  It can.  But so can your pencil.
	   It's the fault of the user, not the language.  At the risk
	   of inflaming the NRA: ``Perl doesn't break Y2K, people
	   do.''  See http://language.perl.com/news/y2k.html for a
	   longer exposition.

	   If you want perl to warn you when it sees a program which
	   catenates a number with the string "19" -- a common
	   indication of a year 2000 problem -- build perl using the
	   Configure option  "-Accflags=-DPERL_Y2KWARN".
	   (See the file INSTALL for more information about building
	   perl.)


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan  3 19:49:27 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 22:35:04 -0500
To: "Edward A. Lyon" <EALYON@cisco.com>
From: Stephen P Potter <spp@colltech.com>
Subject: Re: Perl localtime() Problems [was Re: *ping*]
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
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At 01:37 PM 1/3/00 -0800, Edward A. Lyon wrote:
    Uh, the code excerpt shown was copied exactly from my edition of the
>Version 4 Camel book, Programming perl; Copyright 1990; Printed March, 1992;
>page 320-321.

Interesting... you must have a different printing than mine.  My printing 
is 7/92, and
it does not include that code.  It seems that it was corrected in between 
March and
July.  Strangely, the first part of the code is still there, although it is 
never actually
used.


>>The Perl FAQ for a long time has had the proper information in it
>>(at least in '94/'95, when I was maintaining it).
>
>    I gather I inadvertantly stepped on your toes.  My appologies.

No, you didn't step on my toes.  I was only pointing out that this 
information has
been corrected for many years.

-spp

--
Stephen P Potter     	spp@colltech.com		Ph: 614-766-3653
Senior Consultant	Collective Technologies		Pg: 800-946-4646
			http://www.colltech.com/	      PIN 140-4132
http://www.quixtar.com/ Referral IBO # 2631871		
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From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan  4 10:26:38 2000
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Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:26:17 -0800 (PST)
To: sage-members@usenix.org
cc: melinda@sea-otter.org
Subject: strange nfs problem 
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Hi--

I'm having a strange NFS problem and it has been described by Sun as bugid
number 4183633 for Solaris 2.7 with the fix being upgrade to Solaris 8 (is
not an option)
or to use NFS version 2 which I tried and it did not solve the problem.
This file is mounted off of a netapp filer 630 running OS 5.2.3. Anyone
have any ideas ? Solaris 2.6 machines reports this file's last access
time as 12/31/69-- the day before the birth of UNIX. 


Thanks,


 --Melinda :o)
"Jumping from 18-wheelers can be a health hazard, safety experts warn."
-The Wall Street Journal


RPC:  ----- SUN RPC Header -----
RPC:  
RPC:  Transaction id = 2711524856
RPC:  Type = 0 (Call)
RPC:  RPC version = 2
RPC:  Program = 100003 (NFS), version = 3, procedure = 1
RPC:  Credentials: Flavor = 1 (Unix), len = 68 bytes
RPC:     Time = 04-Jan-00 05:21:41
RPC:     Hostname = orff
RPC:     Uid = 0, Gid = 1
RPC:     Groups = 1 0 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 12 
RPC:  Verifier   : Flavor = 0 (None), len = 0 bytes
RPC:  
NFS:  ----- Sun NFS -----
NFS:  
NFS:  Proc = 1 (Get file attributes)
NFS:  File handle = [6E0A]
NFS:   40000000DB3767002000000000B93AA141058D0BB81C000040000000DB376700

[..snip..]

RPC:  ----- SUN RPC Header -----
RPC:  
RPC:  Transaction id = 2711524856
RPC:  Type = 1 (Reply)
RPC:  This is a reply to frame 5
RPC:  Status = 0 (Accepted)
RPC:  Verifier   : Flavor = 0 (None), len = 0 bytes
RPC:  Accept status = 0 (Success)
RPC:  
NFS:  ----- Sun NFS -----
NFS:  
NFS:  Proc = 1 (Get file attributes)
NFS:  Status = 0 (OK)
NFS:    File type = 1 (Regular File)
NFS:    Mode = 06777
NFS:     Setuid = 1, Setgid = 1, Sticky = 0
NFS:     Owner's permissions = rwx
NFS:     Group's permissions = rwx
NFS:     Other's permissions = rwx
NFS:    Link count = 1, User ID = 60001, Group ID = 60001
NFS:    File size = 0, Used = 0
NFS:    Special: Major = 0, Minor = 0
NFS:    File system id = 7352, File id = 12139169
NFS:    Last access time      = -1265632489.-1743781888
NFS:    Modification time     = 23-Dec-99 05:56:32.690000000 GMT
NFS:    Attribute change time = 23-Dec-99 05:56:32.690000000 GMT


...The sane values for ctime and mtime suggest that this may not have gone
wacky at creation time. So the permissions are very odd, as is the atime
(and the file length is 0).. 


nfs v3 spec is RFC1813 (http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1813.html). I guess
what we would be curious about from it is how the actual setting of the
atime works (does the client send a timestamp that the server is supposed
to blindly accept? does the client simply mention that it accessed the
file and the server updates things accordingly? ..or does the client even 
know for sure that the atime is getting updated -- ie, it happens
automagically) 



Now, for the gory details from the truss:

open64(0x000241B8, 04)                          = 3
     0x000241B8: "."
fcntl(3, 2, 0x00000001)                         = 0
fstat64(3, 0xFFBEFBA0)                          = 0
    d=0x02D00001 i=14471787 m=0040777 l=3  u=60001 g=60001 sz=4096
        at = Dec 22 21:56:28 PST 1999  [ 945928588 ]
        mt = Jan  3 18:42:09 PST 2000  [ 946953729 ]
        ct = Jan  3 18:42:09 PST 2000  [ 946953729 ]
    bsz=8192  blks=8     fs=nfs
getdents64(3, 0x0002DAF0, 1048)                 = 176
    ino=14471787 off=1    rlen=24  "."
    ino=9300341 off=2    rlen=24  ".."
    ino=12139168 off=3    rlen=32  "_vti_cnf"
    ino=12139169 off=4    rlen=32  "bottom.htm"
    ino=12139171 off=5    rlen=32  "top.htm"
    ino=12139172 off=4096 rlen=32  "left.htm"

This little snippet shows the directory being opened, and then we read all
of the contents of the directory (which returns inode numbers and names,
which we can then go and stat() to get their properties)

lstat64(0x00024220, 0xFFBEFBA0)                 = 0
     0x00024220: "./_vti_cnf"
    d=0x02D00001 i=12139168 m=0040777 l=2  u=60001 g=60001 sz=4096
        at = Dec 22 21:56:29 PST 1999  [ 945928589 ]
        mt = Jan  3 18:42:10 PST 2000  [ 946953730 ]
        ct = Jan  3 18:42:10 PST 2000  [ 946953730 ]
    bsz=8192  blks=8     fs=nfs
acl(0x00024220, 3, 0, 0x00000000)               = 4
     0x00024220: "./_vti_cnf"
lstat64(0x00024220, 0xFFBEFBA0)                 Err#79 EOVERFLOW
     0x00024220: "./bottom.htm"
write(2, 0x00024220, 12)                        = 12
     0x00024220: " . / b o t t o m . h t m"
write(2, 0xFF3227B0, 2)                         = 2
     0xFF3227B0: " :  "
write(2, 0xFF31F160, 37)                        = 37
   V a l u e   t o o   l a r g e   f o r   d e f i n e d   d a t a
     t y p e

..here's a file that worked, and one that didn't. The first lstat64() is
on ./_vti_cnf, and it comes back with all kinds of normal looking things
-- atime, mtime, ctime, size, uid, gid, inode #, etc.. 

The second lstat64() (the one on ./bottom.htm, as we all know now), shits
itself. lstat64() returns, telling us that it was unable to complete
because of an overflowed value. Most likely, its because it saw that
crazy-assed atime (that we saw in the snoop), and knew that it couldn't
represent that appropriately.

So, the question remains... How did that atime get that way, and is it
related to the funky file perms, and the fact that the file is of 0
length. 




From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan  4 11:51:52 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
cc: melinda@sea-otter.org
Subject: Re:  strange nfs problem
In-Reply-To: <200001041939.OAA38906@acs-mail.bu.edu>
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this is interesting check this out:

$ /bin/sparcv9/ls -atul
total 40
-rwsrwsrwx   1 nobody   nobody         0 Dec 29  2065 bottom.htm
-rw-rw-rw-   1 nobody   nobody       976 Jan  3 18:42 top.htm
-rw-rw-rw-   1 nobody   nobody       337 Dec 28 20:47 left.htm
drwxrwxrwx   2 nobody   nobody      4096 Dec 22 21:56 _vti_cnf
drwxrwxrwx   3 nobody   nobody      4096 Dec 22 21:56 .
drwxrwxrwx  14 nobody   nobody      4096 Dec 18 21:23 ..
$ cd _vti_cnf
$ /bin/sparcv9/ls -atul
total 32
-rw-rw-rw-   1 nobody   nobody       691 Jan  3 18:42 top.htm
-rw-rw-rw-   1 nobody   nobody       673 Dec 28 20:47 left.htm
drwxrwxrwx   2 nobody   nobody      4096 Dec 22 21:56 .
drwxrwxrwx   3 nobody   nobody      4096 Dec 22 21:56 ..
-rw-rw-rw-   1 nobody   nobody        24 Dec 31  1969 bottom.htm
$ 


--Melinda :o)
"Jumping from 18-wheelers can be a health hazard, safety experts warn."
-The Wall Street Journal

On Tue, 4 Jan 2000, Kevin Ruderman wrote:

> I don't have your answer (sorry, checked under the christmas tree and all)
> but I can add a few points of info.
> 
> >have any ideas ? Solaris 2.6 machines reports this file's last access
> >time as 12/31/69-- the day before the birth of UNIX. 
> 
> That comes from a time stamp of zero. It would be Jan 1 1970 but with
> a negative offset from GMT (like my -5 eastern) it becomes New Years
> Eve 1969.
> 
> 
> >nfs v3 spec is RFC1813 (http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1813.html). I guess
> >what we would be curious about from it is how the actual setting of the
> >atime works (does the client send a timestamp that the server is supposed
> >to blindly accept? does the client simply mention that it accessed the
> >file and the server updates things accordingly? ..or does the client even 
> >know for sure that the atime is getting updated -- ie, it happens
> >automagically) 
> 
> I'm pretty sure it is automagic on the server. The server time is used
> and not the client time. I'm pretty when I did Y2K tests in odd, mixed
> time environments, the server time is what was stamped on the file.
> 
> Rudi
> 



From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan  4 14:06:35 2000
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Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:05:54 -0500
From: Joseph S D Yao <jsdy@tux.org>
To: Wim Peeters <wim@sonycom.com>
Cc: jsdy@tux.org, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Elm and year 100 (was RE:ping)
Message-ID: <20000104170554.D30278@gwyn.tux.org>
References: <10001011158.ZM22510@canismajor.is.macsch.com>
	<200001012129.WAA04728@clover.sonytel.be>
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On Sat, Jan 01, 2000 at 10:29:54PM +0100, Wim Peeters wrote:
> On Oct 12,  1:12, Joseph S D Yao wrote:
> >> 
> >> Elm 2.4*something with MIME/PGP patches shows the year as "100".
> 
> hello Joseph
> 
> yep, I fixed it quick (and dirty probably)
> 
> Here you have it:
> 
> elm2.4.ME+.31/lib/getarpdate.c:
> 
> /*
> 
>    if ((year = curr_tm.tm_year) < 100)
>        year += 1900;
> */
>         year = curr_tm.tm_year;
>         year += 1900;
> 
> 
> The localtime function gives back a struct where tm_year is /* years since 1900 */
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Wim

Yes, found same, made a similar [but not same] fix.

-- 
/*********************************************************************\
**
** Joe Yao				jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao
**
\*********************************************************************/


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan  4 14:17:56 2000
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From: anderson johnston <ajohns5@alumni.umbc.edu>
Reply-To: afj@alumni.princeton.edu
To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Personal y2k issue [was: *ping*]
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I stand corrected in my sloppy use of language.  Of course you are
correct.  I should have called it a "Perl programming bug".  The fix
certainly didn't involve changing the way that localtime worked.  In fact,
defining the year as a count from a fixed origin is a very tidy way to
describe dates (and is also the way that most cultures measure time).  It
is no fault of Perl that programmers ignore the proper use of the call. 

						- Andy Johnston


On 2 Jan 2000, Russ Allbery wrote:

> anderson johnston <ajohns5@alumni.umbc.edu> writes:
> 
> > I don't use X11 to watch my money disappear, but I did have problems
> > with exactly that perl bug in some legacy code written by my
> > second-order predecessor.  It seems to be cropping up all over the list.
> > If anyone has perl code that builds a four-digit year it's probably a
> > good idea to check and make sure the coder didn't just stick a "19" on
> > the front of the (until yesterday) two digits that perl returned.
> 
> This is no more a Perl bug than it is a C bug.  If the documented behavior
> of localtime, which has remained unchanged since the early days of the C
> library is to be called a bug, it's still unfair to place the blame on
> Perl.  The tm_year field is epoch-based; it returns the number of years
> since 1900 AD and always has.  If you found a system in which it returned
> 00, that system would have an extremely serious Y2K bug.
> 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    _/                   /_           |	Andy Johnston
   _/_/                  /_           |	
  _/  _/    _/_/_/   /_/_/_  /_   /_  |	ajohns5@alumni.umbc.edu
 _/_/_/_/   _/   _/ /_  /_    /_ /_   |	
_/      _/  _/   _   /_/_/_    /_     |	http://alumni.umbc.edu/~ajohns5
                              /_      |
                             /_       | (PGP Public Keys at web site)
...............................................................................
                    PGP Key Fingerprints (17-jan-1998): 
     (afj98) 1024/9E3E581D  37 6F 8E 76 99 85 B3 AC 44 89 CD EC 72 42 74 8A
  (afjsig98) 1024/0E717B1D  DB 3E 9A DB B8 EB 32 C4 D8 E8 B3 DA 1E C8 06 33
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan  4 14:25:57 2000
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From: anderson johnston <ajohns5@alumni.umbc.edu>
Reply-To: afj@alumni.princeton.edu
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Netscape 6.5 mail on MS Win98 - Y2K problem?
In-Reply-To: <20000102150731.C11539@datawire.com>
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We've been getting reports from Win98 users that Netscape 6.5 mail has
been sending messages with the year 1969 in the timestamp.  There is
something banging in long-term storage about a 1969 timestamp and MS
operating systems - specifically DOS.  Has anyone else run into this
problem?  Does anybody remember more clearly than I what it is I'm trying
to think of? 

						- Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    _/                   /_           |	Andy Johnston
   _/_/                  /_           |	
  _/  _/    _/_/_/   /_/_/_  /_   /_  |	ajohns5@alumni.umbc.edu
 _/_/_/_/   _/   _/ /_  /_    /_ /_   |	
_/      _/  _/   _   /_/_/_    /_     |	http://alumni.umbc.edu/~ajohns5
                              /_      |
                             /_       | (PGP Public Keys at web site)
...............................................................................
                    PGP Key Fingerprints (17-jan-1998): 
     (afj98) 1024/9E3E581D  37 6F 8E 76 99 85 B3 AC 44 89 CD EC 72 42 74 8A
  (afjsig98) 1024/0E717B1D  DB 3E 9A DB B8 EB 32 C4 D8 E8 B3 DA 1E C8 06 33
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan  4 14:55:03 2000
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Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:54:37 -0500
From: Joseph S D Yao <jsdy@tux.org>
To: Sean MacGuire <sean@maclawran.ca>
Cc: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@jhereg.perl.com>,
	"Edward A. Lyon" <EALYON@cisco.com>, sage-members@usenix.org,
	Stephen P Potter <spp@colltech.com>
Subject: Re: Perl localtime() Problems [was Re: *ping*]
Message-ID: <20000104175437.E30278@gwyn.tux.org>
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	<38714F17.BF9E6272@maclawran.ca>
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	from Sean MacGuire on Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 08:38:31PM -0500
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On Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 08:38:31PM -0500, Sean MacGuire wrote:
> Tom Christiansen wrote:
...
> > Copyright a whole decade ago?  How long is that in Internet time? :-)
> > --tom
> 
> Jurassic Era.  When dinosaurs roamed the net.
> -- 
> Sean MacGuire, Reality Engineer               sean@MacLawran.ca
> The Big Brother Ministry of Truth      http://maclawran.ca/sean
> icbm --> 45'31.06N-73'35.19W                    +1 514 996 4638
>               "Looking down the barrel of another day"

You DO realize that a LOT of us dinosaurs are on this list?  ;-)

10 years is 0.4 of the lifetime of the ARPAnet/Internet.  Work from
there.

-- 
/*********************************************************************\
**
** Joe Yao				jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao
**
\*********************************************************************/


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan  5 07:24:43 2000
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From: "Gilliland, James     (EN) 5980" <jgilliland@cyprus.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: Perl localtime() Problems [was Re: *ping*]
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:23:25 -0700 
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>-----Original Message-----
>From: Joseph S D Yao [mailto:jsdy@tux.org]
>
>You DO realize that a LOT of us dinosaurs are on this list?  ;-)
>
>10 years is 0.4 of the lifetime of the ARPAnet/Internet.  Work from
>there.

Since dinosaurs still live . . . would that mean that Internet has 
yet to mature?

gil
--------------------
Gil Gilliland
Unix / Oracle / Perl
Cyprus Amax Minerals (deceased)
jgilliland@cyprus.com 


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan  5 08:41:27 2000
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Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 08:40:21 -0800
From: "Lowell R. Snyder Jr." <lsnyder@ptc.com>
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"Gilliland, James (EN) 5980" wrote:
> 
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Joseph S D Yao [mailto:jsdy@tux.org]
> >
> >You DO realize that a LOT of us dinosaurs are on this list?  ;-)
> >
> >10 years is 0.4 of the lifetime of the ARPAnet/Internet.  Work from
> >there.
> 
> Since dinosaurs still live . . . would that mean that Internet has
> yet to mature?
> 
> gil
> --------------------
> Gil Gilliland
> Unix / Oracle / Perl
> Cyprus Amax Minerals (deceased)
> jgilliland@cyprus.com


I'm more concerned about what could wipe out us dinosaurs...

They tried with Y2K, but they'll have to do better than that :)


-- 
Lowell R. Snyder Jr.
Manager, West Coast IT Operations
Parametric Technology Corp.
408-953-8643


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan  5 10:37:35 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Backup software; Legato vs. Veritas?
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Hello Sages,

This should be a topic on which people have an opinion... which is
better, Legato Networker or Veritas NetBackup?  Or is there another
package of the same scope which is better still?

I need an enterprise backup solution and I've used mostly Legato in
the past, but I am not entirely happy with Legato.  Aside from my
personal dislikes Legato doesn't have two features which I would 
like and which Veritas offers; 1) is encryption, 2) is NDMP backup
of NetApps.

The latter is kind of a show-stopper for me... Legato "solved" it by
buying Intelliguard (Budtool), but running two incompatible backup
systems is a pain at best.  Legato promises to incorporate the NDMP
functionality into their main product, but there is apparently no
fixed timeline for this.

As for encryption... I have long been puzzled that most backup
software does not have this feature.  It seems a major weak link in
any data security scheme to have unencrypted backups.  Yeah, you 
can put your tapes in a vault, and should, but since you're likely
to have so many of them and ship some off-site, etc., they seem
much harder to keep secure than the disks the data came off of.

Anyway, because of these two features I am considering Veritas
NetBackup, which has them.  However Veritas is even more expensive 
than Legato.

So what do you think?  How do these products compare in general?

- Jürgen





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Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 12:00:55 -0800
From: Brian Mann <bmann@twow.com>
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Subject: Encryption Key Lengths
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I'm installing a VPN on my network for the first time, and need to make
decisions regarding key lengths. The available range for public key
length was 256 to 1024 bits. Being very paranoid, I selected 1024 bits.
Now I'm being asked for a private key length, with an available range
from 64 to 512 bits. The install program is prompting me with:

"The private key length is used to create the new certificate. If you
are unfamiliar with Diffie-Hellman public key parameters, use the
recommended private key length."

This recommended length is 256 bits. My question - is there some sort of
optimal ratio of public to private key lengths? Or is a longer key more
secure, regardless? I know that longer keys take exponentially longer to
generate, but that's a one-time situation. The actual encryption used
for the VPN is triple DES, which I understand to be 168 bit. So the key
lengths shouldn't have any effect on the user response time?

Sorry to be asking such basic questions. Any insights will be greatly
appreciated.

Brian
-- 
"Daddy? Do all fairy tales begin with 'Once Upon A Time'?"
"No, some begin with 'If elected I promise'."


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan  5 13:10:47 2000
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I'm installing a VPN on my network for the first time, and need to make
decisions regarding key lengths. The available range for public key
length was 256 to 1024 bits. Being very paranoid, I selected 1024 bits.
Now I'm being asked for a private key length, with an available range
from 64 to 512 bits. The install program is prompting me with:

"The private key length is used to create the new certificate. If you
are unfamiliar with Diffie-Hellman public key parameters, use the
recommended private key length."

This recommended length is 256 bits. My question - is there some sort of
optimal ratio of public to private key lengths? Or is a longer key more
secure, regardless? I know that longer keys take exponentially longer to
generate, but that's a one-time situation. The actual encryption used
for the VPN is triple DES, which I understand to be 168 bit. So the key
lengths shouldn't have any effect on the user response time?

Sorry to be asking such basic questions. Any insights will be greatly
appreciated.

Brian
-- 
"Daddy? Do all fairy tales begin with 'Once Upon A Time'?"
"No, some begin with 'If elected I promise'."


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan  5 14:23:45 2000
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Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 15:22:59 -0700 (MST)
From: LuftHans <LuftHans@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Backup software; Legato vs. Veritas?
In-reply-to: <200001051759.JAA25757@nova.botz.org>
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To: Jurgen Botz <jurgen@botz.org>
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On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Jurgen Botz wrote:

> Hello Sages,
> 
> This should be a topic on which people have an opinion... which is
> better, Legato Networker or Veritas NetBackup?  Or is there another
> package of the same scope which is better still?
> 
> I need an enterprise backup solution and I've used mostly Legato in
> the past, but I am not entirely happy with Legato.  Aside from my
> personal dislikes Legato doesn't have two features which I would 
> like and which Veritas offers; 1) is encryption, 2) is NDMP backup
> of NetApps.

Where I just left we were using Veritas. Last I knew that will be changing. We
weren't really needing all of the "enterprise" stuff, but did have some 50
machines doing local weekly fulls and network incrementals.

We were having constant failures because Veritas couldn't read it's own tapes. 
This was the ANSI errors I asked about a couple of times more than a year ago. 
It only happened a small percentage of the time, but in 2 years they couldn't
fix it and it was annoying to have backups not work on a regular basis.  They
still haven't figured out what the problem is. The tapes are readable via dd
and gnutar. We've done a few restores via dd and gnutar as well. At least
those were possibilities :). 

There's also been a constant problem with tapes coming back too soon. I think
that was operator error, though. I didn't work on the backups, just helped try
to fix the ANSI problem.

NDMP was usually pretty flawless.

We were never impressed with their tech support staff :(.

ciao,

der.hans

# +++++++++++=================================+++++++++++ #
#                   LuftHans@asu.edu                      #
#            http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/              #
#   I'm not anti-social, I'm pro-individual. - der.hans   #
# ===========+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=========== #



From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan  5 14:56:39 2000
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Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 09:56:12 +1100
To: Brian Mann <bmann@twow.com>
From: Greg Rose <ggr@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: Encryption Key Lengths
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
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At 13:10 5/01/2000 -0800, Brian Mann wrote:
>I'm installing a VPN on my network for the first time, and need to make
>decisions regarding key lengths. The available range for public key
>length was 256 to 1024 bits. Being very paranoid, I selected 1024 bits.
>Now I'm being asked for a private key length, with an available range
>from 64 to 512 bits. The install program is prompting me with:

[deletia]

There are three different effective key lengths you've mentioned.
1. The modulus size (1024)
2. The exponent size (what we're trying to determine)
3. The symmetric cipher key (3DES, 168 bits)

Lenstra has recently published a very detailed paper about this stuff. But 
basically, the idea is to balance the strengths so that there is no obvious 
"weakest point". The trouble is that these three things are different 
fruits, so no truly direct comparison is possible.

Attacks against the modulus go according to a complicated formula 
("super-poly-logarithmic-sub-exponentional-function, even though the 
thought of it has something of rambunction..." :-); 1024 bits is about 
equivalent to a 90 bit symmetric key. Compute time for D-H goes up roughly 
according to the cube of the length of the modulus.

Attacks against the exponent go according to the square root of the length 
of the exponent, so to match the modulus you need at least about 180 bits. 
Computation for D-H is directly proportional to the length of the 
exponent... so 256 bits is about 25% more expensive than 180 bits, and is a 
nice conservative choice, and a better match for the strength of 3DES.

3DES (even the two key version) is not the weak point.

The Diffie-Hellman stuff happens (hopefully) so rarely that it won't affect 
your overall load.

hope that helps,
Greg.


Greg Rose                                     INTERNET: ggr@Qualcomm.com
Qualcomm Australia        VOICE:  +61-2-9181-4851   FAX: +61-2-9181-5470
Suite 410, Birkenhead Point,             http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/
Drummoyne NSW 2047    232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F  E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan  5 16:29:28 2000
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From: "AC.Willenbring" <acw@mapp.org>
Message-Id: <200001060028.SAA20072@penelope.mappcc.mapp.org>
Subject: Re: Backup software; Legato vs. Veritas?
To: jurgen@botz.org (Jurgen Botz)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:28:46 -0600 (CST)
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000105143309.25967A-100000@general4.asu.edu> from
	"LuftHans" at Jan 05, 2000 03:22:59 PM
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We dropped Legato to go to Veritas about a year ago.  We didn't like the
Legato interface, and it did a very poor job with our hardware (an Exabyte
210 8mm hanging off of a Solaris 2.5.1 box).  We also upgraded hardware at
the time due to increased volume (now it's an Exabyte 230D DLT hanging off a
Solaris 2.6 box, 'though we're keeping the 8mm for smaller needs), and we've
not experienced any of the problems der.hans is reporting.  I personally am
MUCH happier with Veritas than I was with Legato, but I have to add the
caveat that I understand how Veritas works now much better than I ever had a
chance to get with Legato, so that may be coloring my experiences, too.

And I've had nothing but good customer service from Veritas - I've heard it
didn't used to be that way, so they must've fixed that up quite a bit.

I think I'd venture to say that the answer to your question is "Depends on
which one you like better", though...

						Andrew Willenbring
						UNIX System Administrator
						MAPPCOR

> 
> On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Jurgen Botz wrote:
> 
> > Hello Sages,
> > 
> > This should be a topic on which people have an opinion... which is
> > better, Legato Networker or Veritas NetBackup?  Or is there another
> > package of the same scope which is better still?
> > 
> > I need an enterprise backup solution and I've used mostly Legato in
> > the past, but I am not entirely happy with Legato.  Aside from my
> > personal dislikes Legato doesn't have two features which I would 
> > like and which Veritas offers; 1) is encryption, 2) is NDMP backup
> > of NetApps.
> 
> Where I just left we were using Veritas. Last I knew that will be changing. We
> weren't really needing all of the "enterprise" stuff, but did have some 50
> machines doing local weekly fulls and network incrementals.
> 
> We were having constant failures because Veritas couldn't read it's own tapes. 
> This was the ANSI errors I asked about a couple of times more than a year ago. 
> It only happened a small percentage of the time, but in 2 years they couldn't
> fix it and it was annoying to have backups not work on a regular basis.  They
> still haven't figured out what the problem is. The tapes are readable via dd
> and gnutar. We've done a few restores via dd and gnutar as well. At least
> those were possibilities :). 
> 
> There's also been a constant problem with tapes coming back too soon. I think
> that was operator error, though. I didn't work on the backups, just helped try
> to fix the ANSI problem.
> 
> NDMP was usually pretty flawless.
> 
> We were never impressed with their tech support staff :(.
> 
> ciao,
> 
> der.hans
> 
> # +++++++++++=================================+++++++++++ #
> #                   LuftHans@asu.edu                      #
> #            http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/              #
> #   I'm not anti-social, I'm pro-individual. - der.hans   #
> # ===========+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=========== #
> 
> 



From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan  5 17:52:10 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Netscape 6.5 mail on MS Win98 - Y2K problem? 
From: Tom Reingold <tommy@bell-labs.com>
X-Uri: http://www.bell-labs.com/user/tommy
In-Reply-To: Message from anderson johnston <ajohns5@alumni.umbc.edu> 
	of Tue, 04 Jan 2000 17:25:45 EST
	<Pine.SGI.3.96.1000104172141.11154B-100000@alumni.umbc.edu> 
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On Tue, 04 Jan 2000 17:25:45 EST,
	anderson johnston <ajohns5@alumni.umbc.edu> wrote:

> We've been getting reports from Win98 users that Netscape 6.5 mail has
> been sending messages with the year 1969 in the timestamp.  There is
> something banging in long-term storage about a 1969 timestamp and MS
> operating systems - specifically DOS.  Has anyone else run into this
> problem?  Does anybody remember more clearly than I what it is I'm trying
> to think of? 

DOS's clock can't go back that far.  I think it can only go back to 
1980.  1969 is the moment before the beginning of time in UNIX.  C 
libraries for MS operating systems emulate UNIX libraries, which is 
why you get UNIX-like behavior often.  I've seen this behavior this 
week.  In our case, the cause was a non-compliant mailer in UNIX 
(elm) sending out mail with the year 100.  Since netscape can't deal 
with that date, it thinks it means 1969, which indicates it's using 
one of those unix-emulation C libraries.  It's a bug in netscape, but 
I might not report it, since the fault lies in the mailer that sent 
the mail.  Are you sure the PC version of netscape is SENDING mail 
with a bad date stamp?



-- 
Tom Reingold
tommy@bell-labs.com                 http://www.bell-labs.com/~tommy
Bell Labs, the Research and Development unit of Lucent Technologies
Murray Hill, NJ, 07974-0636 US




From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan  5 18:00:21 2000
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Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:59:59 -0700
To: Brian Mann <bmann@twow.com>, sage <sage-members@usenix.org>
From: "Richard Johnson" <rdump@river.com>
Subject: Re: Encryption Key Lengths
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 13:00 -0700 on 1/5/00, Brian Mann wrote:
> This recommended length is 256 bits. My question - is there some sort of
> optimal ratio of public to private key lengths? Or is a longer key more
> secure, regardless? I know that longer keys take exponentially longer to
> generate, but that's a one-time situation. The actual encryption used
> for the VPN is triple DES, which I understand to be 168 bit. So the key
> lengths shouldn't have any effect on the user response time?
>
> Sorry to be asking such basic questions. Any insights will be greatly
> appreciated.


This is admittedly conservative, and there's some minor disagreement about the
measures, but at least it'll give you a good taste of how the key lengths
compare.

	http://www.cryptosavvy.com/

More conservative analyses by some in the anonymous remailer community have
1024 bit RSA keys deprecated in favor of a minimum of 2048 bit.  There's some
worry, based partially upon message failures and delays that disappear after a
short time after the creation of a new nym or key, that some TLAs can crack a
1024 bit RSA key in O(week) under some circumstances.


Richard

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From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan  5 20:28:49 2000
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Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 21:26:54 -0700 (MST)
From: LuftHans <LuftHans@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Backup software; Legato vs. Veritas?
In-reply-to: <200001060028.SAA20072@penelope.mappcc.mapp.org>
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On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, AC.Willenbring wrote:

> not experienced any of the problems der.hans is reporting.  I personally am

We can't all be dissatisfied customers ;-).

For the most part it worked well, but I feel that it should be flawless for
the amount we paid. Glad to know someone had good experiences. I presume most
customers do or they'd be out of business :).

ciao,

der.hans

# +++++++++++=================================+++++++++++ #
#                   LuftHans@asu.edu                      #
#            http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/              #
#         Science is magic explained. - der.hans          #
# ===========+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=========== #



From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan  6 05:16:06 2000
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From: "Arthur, Chastity" <Chastity.Arthur@schwab.com>
To: "'LuftHans'" <LuftHans@asu.edu>, "AC.Willenbring" <acw@mapp.org>
Cc: Jurgen Botz <jurgen@botz.org>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: Backup software; Legato vs. Veritas?
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 05:13:51 -0800 
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VERITAS isn't even close to being out of business.  Have you seen their
performance over the last 2 years?  May not make you rich in a week but will
over a long term investment.  Don't get me wrong, they're no QCOM!

VRTS Products: I have used almost all of them.  Support, oh they know it
sucks, they've been focusing on it for quite some time and over the past few
months I have noticed I have received much more competency and promptness.
Legato support sucks too, I have used both Vanguard and Legato... for that
matter, I can't say any support system I have used has ever impressed me.
My advice would also be to look at ease of maintenance, how many people will
be admins on this backup server.  

I would also recommend that you look at what standards you want to follow
for offsites, cloning, recycling, etc.  I always try to remember that humans
make software, humans are not flawless so therefore software will never be
flawless.  

-----Original Message-----
From: LuftHans [mailto:LuftHans@asu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 11:27 PM
To: AC.Willenbring
Cc: Jurgen Botz; sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Backup software; Legato vs. Veritas?


On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, AC.Willenbring wrote:

> not experienced any of the problems der.hans is reporting.  I personally
am

We can't all be dissatisfied customers ;-).

For the most part it worked well, but I feel that it should be flawless for
the amount we paid. Glad to know someone had good experiences. I presume
most
customers do or they'd be out of business :).

ciao,

der.hans

# +++++++++++=================================+++++++++++ #
#                   LuftHans@asu.edu                      #
#            http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/              #
#         Science is magic explained. - der.hans          #
# ===========+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=========== #


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan  6 21:35:36 2000
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From: Joseph S D Yao <jsdy@tux.org>
To: "Gilliland, James     (EN) 5980" <jgilliland@cyprus.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
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On Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 08:23:25AM -0700, Gilliland, James     (EN) 5980 wrote:
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Joseph S D Yao [mailto:jsdy@tux.org]
> >
> >You DO realize that a LOT of us dinosaurs are on this list?  ;-)
> >
> >10 years is 0.4 of the lifetime of the ARPAnet/Internet.  Work from
> >there.
> 
> Since dinosaurs still live . . . would that mean that Internet has 
> yet to mature?
> 
> gil
> --------------------
> Gil Gilliland
> Unix / Oracle / Perl
> Cyprus Amax Minerals (deceased)
> jgilliland@cyprus.com 

Is there really any question?  ;-)

-- 
/*********************************************************************\
**
** Joe Yao				jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao
**
\*********************************************************************/


From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan  7 05:35:29 2000
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Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 08:33:34 -0500
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: "Richard C. Dempsey" <dempsey@Kodak.COM>
Subject: Re: Backup software; Legato vs. Veritas?
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At 09:59 AM 1/5/00 -0800, Jurgen Botz wrote:
> [...]
>As for encryption... I have long been puzzled that most backup
>software does not have this feature.  It seems a major weak link in
>any data security scheme to have unencrypted backups.  Yeah, you 
>can put your tapes in a vault, and should, but since you're likely
>to have so many of them and ship some off-site, etc., they seem
>much harder to keep secure than the disks the data came off of.

One of the sessions I attended at LISA 99 hammered home in my mind
that cryptosystem design and implementation is WAY harder than
selecting the right cryptographic algorithm to encode the data.
It does no good to encrypt the data if the key (mis)management
discloses a key.  (ref: disclosure of DVD encryption)

For that matter, encryption does no good in a restoration
situation if the required key is lost, preventing access to the
backup copies of data.

It's also not clear to me that encryption will be wildly effective
if a black hat obtains a backup tape, because he's going to be able
to hit it with all his resources in private.

If the security of your data is sufficiently important to warrant
the investment of the time and effort to design a solid cryptosystem
to protect it from disclosure if the tapes fall into the wrong hands,
I suspect that a fraction of that investment spent first to ensure
proper physical handling and protection of the tapes would be
significantly more effective, both in absolute protection and in
value for governmental currency unit.

In summary, I think it's a whole lot easier to implement proper
physical handling than to go the crypto way.

In fact, I think proper physical handling of the keys would have to
be designed for a crypto solution, anyway.  Why not do it first for
the tapes, and analyze what risks remain?

Rich

Richard C. Dempsey                 email: dempsey@kodak.com
Public Online Services             pager: 716-975-3539
11th Floor, Bldg 83, RL            phone: 716-477-3457
Eastman Kodak Company              fax:   716-722-3885
Rochester, NY 14650-2203


From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan  7 06:32:48 2000
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To: "Richard C. Dempsey" <dempsey@Kodak.COM>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org, rackow@mcs.anl.gov
Subject: Re: Backup software; Legato vs. Veritas? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jan 2000 08:33:34 EST."
	<3.0.32.20000107083333.00b26340@corpmail.kodak.com> 
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 08:32:30 -0600
From: Gene Rackow <rackow@mcs.anl.gov>
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One thing that has eluded me is what do you do with all of your
crypto data sets and backups when you find yourself in a situation
where one of your "trusted" employees goes bad.  If he knows the key
your crypto is no longer of much value.  How do you change the online
version of the crypto data without disrupting current operation?
Do you need to go back and re-key all of the data you have on tape? 
If you don't re-key, how do you deal with the protection of the
archive of your keys?

---Gene

   Gene Rackow                    email: rackow@mcs.anl.gov
   Math & Computer Science        voice: 630-252-7126
   Argonne National Lab           FAX:   630-252-5986
   9700 S. Cass Ave. / Argonne, IL  60439




"Richard C. Dempsey" made the following keystrokes:
 >At 09:59 AM 1/5/00 -0800, Jurgen Botz wrote:
 >> [...]
 >>As for encryption... I have long been puzzled that most backup
 >>software does not have this feature.  It seems a major weak link in
 >>any data security scheme to have unencrypted backups.  Yeah, you 
 >>can put your tapes in a vault, and should, but since you're likely
 >>to have so many of them and ship some off-site, etc., they seem
 >>much harder to keep secure than the disks the data came off of.
 >
 >One of the sessions I attended at LISA 99 hammered home in my mind
 >that cryptosystem design and implementation is WAY harder than
 >selecting the right cryptographic algorithm to encode the data.
 >It does no good to encrypt the data if the key (mis)management
 >discloses a key.  (ref: disclosure of DVD encryption)
 >
 >For that matter, encryption does no good in a restoration
 >situation if the required key is lost, preventing access to the
 >backup copies of data.
 >
 >It's also not clear to me that encryption will be wildly effective
 >if a black hat obtains a backup tape, because he's going to be able
 >to hit it with all his resources in private.
 >
 >If the security of your data is sufficiently important to warrant
 >the investment of the time and effort to design a solid cryptosystem
 >to protect it from disclosure if the tapes fall into the wrong hands,
 >I suspect that a fraction of that investment spent first to ensure
 >proper physical handling and protection of the tapes would be
 >significantly more effective, both in absolute protection and in
 >value for governmental currency unit.
 >
 >In summary, I think it's a whole lot easier to implement proper
 >physical handling than to go the crypto way.
 >
 >In fact, I think proper physical handling of the keys would have to
 >be designed for a crypto solution, anyway.  Why not do it first for
 >the tapes, and analyze what risks remain?
 >
 >Rich
 >
 >Richard C. Dempsey                 email: dempsey@kodak.com
 >Public Online Services             pager: 716-975-3539
 >11th Floor, Bldg 83, RL            phone: 716-477-3457
 >Eastman Kodak Company              fax:   716-722-3885
 >Rochester, NY 14650-2203
 >


From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan  7 08:02:51 2000
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To: "Richard C. Dempsey" <dempsey@Kodak.COM>
CC: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Backup software; Legato vs. Veritas?
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Since many backup systems make use of tape jukeboxes, the tapes may be
accessible, even though they are in a physically secure location. 
Physical security isn't enough if someone can get into your site, and
then get to the tapes over the network.

Howie

"Richard C. Dempsey" wrote:
> 
> At 09:59 AM 1/5/00 -0800, Jurgen Botz wrote:
> > [...]
> >As for encryption... I have long been puzzled that most backup
> >software does not have this feature.  It seems a major weak link in
> >any data security scheme to have unencrypted backups.  Yeah, you
> >can put your tapes in a vault, and should, but since you're likely
> >to have so many of them and ship some off-site, etc., they seem
> >much harder to keep secure than the disks the data came off of.
> 
> One of the sessions I attended at LISA 99 hammered home in my mind
> that cryptosystem design and implementation is WAY harder than
> selecting the right cryptographic algorithm to encode the data.
> It does no good to encrypt the data if the key (mis)management
> discloses a key.  (ref: disclosure of DVD encryption)
> 
> For that matter, encryption does no good in a restoration
> situation if the required key is lost, preventing access to the
> backup copies of data.
> 
> It's also not clear to me that encryption will be wildly effective
> if a black hat obtains a backup tape, because he's going to be able
> to hit it with all his resources in private.
> 
> If the security of your data is sufficiently important to warrant
> the investment of the time and effort to design a solid cryptosystem
> to protect it from disclosure if the tapes fall into the wrong hands,
> I suspect that a fraction of that investment spent first to ensure
> proper physical handling and protection of the tapes would be
> significantly more effective, both in absolute protection and in
> value for governmental currency unit.
> 
> In summary, I think it's a whole lot easier to implement proper
> physical handling than to go the crypto way.
> 
> In fact, I think proper physical handling of the keys would have to
> be designed for a crypto solution, anyway.  Why not do it first for
> the tapes, and analyze what risks remain?
> 
> Rich
> 
> Richard C. Dempsey                 email: dempsey@kodak.com
> Public Online Services             pager: 716-975-3539
> 11th Floor, Bldg 83, RL            phone: 716-477-3457
> Eastman Kodak Company              fax:   716-722-3885
> Rochester, NY 14650-2203


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  8 10:34:23 2000
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From: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey)
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 13:34:35 -0500
Reply-To: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. LIndsey)
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Reliability and assurances
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I'm working on a theory: if you can't be assured that a subsystem is going
to work all of the time, then you can't be assured that a subsystem is
going to work any of the time.

Does that seem reasonable?

When I say `subsystem' here, it's for lack of a better term to describe
something atomic; e.g., a source of power for computer X, or a database
server for application Y, &c. Obviously, everything depends on something
else, and I'm not talking here about an analysis that extends up a
reliability tree.



From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  8 13:23:26 2000
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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 13:23:18 -0800
From: David Alban <alban@datawire.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Reliability and assurances
Message-ID: <20000108132318.A5802@datawire.com>
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Mark,

At 2000/01/08/13:34 -0500 Mark R. Lindsey <mark@vielle.datasys.net> wrote:
> I'm working on a theory: if you can't be assured that a subsystem is going
> to work all of the time, then you can't be assured that a subsystem is
> going to work any of the time.

Can we be assured that *any* subsystem is going to work all of the
time?

David
-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  8 14:40:28 2000
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From: "Jack Coats at coats.org" <jack@coats.org>
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Subject: Re: Reliability and assurances
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 16:40:06 -0600
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I am sure that there are formal academic studies of this, but in
general,

Multiply the probabilities of each thing WORKING by each other,
then you get the probability of the overall system reliability.

The way I see it, it just magnifies why to get a .99999
probability
of something working, you cannot get it with ANY component
having that probability of reliability or less.  Each component
must
be of higher reliability (closer to one) than the desired
reliability.

Five Nines is a reliability goal of some vendors hardware.  To
accomplish this you go to multiple redundant processors, power
supplies, software capable of hot failover, hot-swap RAID disks,
and the list goes on and on.

Does that help? ... Jack



From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  8 16:46:00 2000
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On Sat, 8 Jan 2000, David Alban wrote:
> Can we be assured that *any* subsystem is going to work all of the
> time?

David, did you forget stupidity? 

Dennis Gerasimov                                    office  301-614-5070
Sr. Systems Administrator,                     denis@tsdis.gsfc.nasa.gov
MTI                                   personal e-mail denis@datawire.com
#include <std_disclaimer.h>               http://www.datawire.com/~denis




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To: "Sage Members" <sage-members@usenix.org>
From: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
Subject: Re: Reliability and assurances
Cc: mark@vielle.datasys.net
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There may  be underlying points with this as well.  I have had to deal with 
a situation that touch upon this.  Please allow me to elaborate...

We use "computer generated" forms, that is the database server sends ascii 
data to a formatting server that turns the raw text into our invoices with 
logos and etc.  The problem that we faced is that the formatting system is 
prone to going down for various reasons.  Because of this someone (usually 
me) gets called in the middle of the night when it doesn't work.  Since 
"once is enough" for me I came up with a way to add some redundancy to the 
system so that I could deal with the problems in the morning and not in the 
middle of the night.  (This was not simple, and did take some time.)

My boss saw what I was doing and expressed the stance that I was wasting my 
time since it only acts up every month or so.  I then rebutted with the 
position that we could not accurately predict when it would or wouldn't 
work.  Murphy's law then dictates that the system will fail at the worst 
possible time. (e.g. high work load, no one able to make it in to fix 
it).  I was still told to stop what I was doing.  Fortunately I had 
documented this.

Several months later, I was out of town and my boss was detained in getting 
to the site when the system went down.  The end loss was several hours of 
labor as no invoices could be printed, therefore trucks could not be 
loaded, etc. etc.  I returned to a small inquisition about the failure in 
the system.  It seems that my boss was busy covering himself.  (claims that 
I /someone was supposed to restart the system every week... this was 
documented to have no predictable effect. e.g restarting fixed the problem, 
but would not necessarily prevent it.)

I quietly showed "upper mgmt." the documentation I had kept with the line 
"we can not accurately predict the reliability of this system".  Nothing 
was done until several months later when the scenario repeated itself.  We 
have since looked into other solutions and with cost being a major factor 
my original idea of a redundant system was put into place.  The system 
still goes down from time to time, but it is not a crippling event anymore.


The underlying point might be that just because a system is prone to 
failure doesn't mean it can/should be replaced.  In our case it was not 
cost effective to replace the system, but it was cost effective to add 
redundancy and increase the level of reliability.

"Sometimes the obvious answer is not the correct one." (me)

Hope this helps... someone :-)
- Bennett

At 01:34 PM 1/8/00 -0500, Mark R. Lindsey manipulated the electrons to say:
>I'm working on a theory: if you can't be assured that a subsystem is going
>to work all of the time, then you can't be assured that a subsystem is
>going to work any of the time.
>
>Does that seem reasonable?
>
>When I say `subsystem' here, it's for lack of a better term to describe
>something atomic; e.g., a source of power for computer X, or a database
>server for application Y, &c. Obviously, everything depends on something
>else, and I'm not talking here about an analysis that extends up a
>reliability tree.




From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan  9 10:42:05 2000
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Subject: RE: Reliability and assurances
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 10:42:34 -0800
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If some subsystem is expected to fail, you have no guarantee that
it will be available at any specific moment... but just because you
expect some subsystem to be unavailable doesn't mean you should
assume that it will be unavailable all the time.  Everything will be
unavailable at some point.  Astronomers tell us that if we wait
long enough and the sun will change what it delivers.

There is a long history of statically basis analysis and
predictions to engineer reliable systems.  Some of the statistics
are counter intuitive (at least to me).  Go to any good bookstore
with a good engineering section (EE, MechE or CivilE) and you should
be able to find a decent textbooks.    There was a lot of good
research done in the 60's about how you can (with a lot of work)
build reliable systems out of components which will fail.  I could
cite the lit, but Peter Neumann has a good report which touches on
most issues which can be found at
http://www.csl.sri.com/neumann/arl-one.html

If you are thinking about building HA system,
http://www.interlog.com/~resnick/HA.htm
might also provide some useful information / perspective.

--Mark Verber
  Network Operations, Tellme Networks
  http://www.verber.com/mark/

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
[mailto:owner-sage-members@usenix.org]On Behalf Of Mark R. Lindsey
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2000 10:35 AM
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Reliability and assurances


I'm working on a theory: if you can't be assured that a subsystem is going
to work all of the time, then you can't be assured that a subsystem is
going to work any of the time.

Does that seem reasonable?

When I say `subsystem' here, it's for lack of a better term to describe
something atomic; e.g., a source of power for computer X, or a database
server for application Y, &c. Obviously, everything depends on something
else, and I'm not talking here about an analysis that extends up a
reliability tree.


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 10 05:38:30 2000
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From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: brief email survey
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I hope nobody minds my doing this little email survey.  Please reply
directly to me and I'll collate and post the results when I have a good
number of responses (hopefully a week or so).

1) What email server software does your organization use (sendmail,
postfix, qmail, exim, etc)?

2) What email client software does your organization use (Eudora, Outlook,
Pegasus, Pine, etc)?

3a) Do your users access mail from remote locations?

3b) Do you use some sort of POP-Before-SMTP protocol for those users in
3a, or do you require them to use the remote SMTP server (or, do you
simply have an open relay or hardcoded remote addresses)?

4) What is your message size limit?  Do you ever reconfigure your mail
server temporarily to make exceptions for "important" large emails coming
out of your organization?

5) Do you implement mailbox quotas on a per-user basis?  If so, how big is
that quota?

6) How big is your organization (# users, # admins, # unix servers, #
workstations (PC or otherwise))?

Thanks very much in advance for participating.  

-Adam
Adam Levin, Senior Unix Systems Administrator | http://www.audible.com/
Audible, Inc.           The man gave a shrug which indicated that although
Wayne, NJ, USA          the world did indeed have many problems, this
973-890-4070 x297       was one of them that was not his.




From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 10 06:43:00 2000
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	"brief email survey" (Apr 26, 20:45)
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} 1) What email server software does your organization use (sendmail,
} postfix, qmail, exim, etc)?

sendmail, cc:mail (sendmail is external hub, cc:mail is internal hub)

} 2) What email client software does your organization use (Eudora, Outlook,
} Pegasus, Pine, etc)?

cc:mail, notes

} 3a) Do your users access mail from remote locations?

yes

} 3b) Do you use some sort of POP-Before-SMTP protocol for those users in
} 3a, or do you require them to use the remote SMTP server (or, do you
} simply have an open relay or hardcoded remote addresses)?

uses cc:mail mobile via RAS 

} 4) What is your message size limit?  Do you ever reconfigure your mail
} server temporarily to make exceptions for "important" large emails coming
} out of your organization?

None that I'm aware of although cc:mail sets its own arbitrary limits.

} 5) Do you implement mailbox quotas on a per-user basis?  If so, how big is
} that quota?

No. Clean out all folders on mail server weekly. Messages older than one 
month are purged. cc:mail has a postoffice box limit of 4GB. A postoffice
would be home to several hundred users. 

} 6) How big is your organization (# users, # admins, # unix servers, #
} workstations (PC or otherwise))?

2500, 30, 100, 2500

Of course you're not asking about all our AS/400, Tandems, and NT boxes

-Matthew


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 10 09:41:39 2000
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From: Mario Obejas <obejas@phylum.rsc.raytheon.com>
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Subject: Re: Reliability and assurances
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Mark R. Lindsey wrote:
>I'm working on a theory: if (A) you can't be assured that a subsystem is going
>to work all of the time, then (B) you can't be assured that a subsystem is
>going to work any of the time.
>
>Does that seem reasonable?

Not to me. Maybe you wrote it different than what you intended, 
e.g., you meant "system" instead of subsystem in your B clause.
IMHO, your A and B clauses need to be switched.
Let's substitute numerical values:
all=100%
any="<100%"

I'd agree with
(B) If 
  one "can't be assured that a subsystem is going to work <100% of the time"
(A) Then
  one "can't be assured that a subsystem is going to work 100% of the time".
  
But respectfully, I don't agree with your original statement. As the example of 
redundancy pointed out, I can have a system (e.g., a RAID box) and be assured 
that a component *will* fail at some point, yet redundancy allows the 
containing system to work "100%" of the time. In other words, I can have 
components of known finite lifetimes in a system, yet the system has greater 
reliability than the best of its parts.




From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 10 11:15:57 2000
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> I hope nobody minds my doing this little email survey.  Please reply
> directly to me and I'll collate and post the results when I have a good
> number of responses (hopefully a week or so).
>
> 1) What email server software does your organization use (sendmail,
> postfix, qmail, exim, etc)?

sendmail

>
> 2) What email client software does your organization use (Eudora, Outlook,
> Pegasus, Pine, etc)?

exmh,  Eudora, Outlook, Outlook Express or Netscape

>
> 3a) Do your users access mail from remote locations?

Yes
>
> 3b) Do you use some sort of POP-Before-SMTP protocol for those users in
> 3a, or do you require them to use the remote SMTP server (or, do you
> simply have an open relay or hardcoded remote addresses)?
>

Relay


> 4) What is your message size limit?  Do you ever reconfigure your mail
> server temporarily to make exceptions for "important" large emails coming
> out of your organization?
>
No limit


> 5) Do you implement mailbox quotas on a per-user basis?  If so, how big is
> that quota?
>
No

> 6) How big is your organization (# users, # admins, # unix servers, #
> workstations (PC or otherwise))?
>

Users# 50, Admins# 1, Unix servers# 15, Workstations (NT, 98, and linux),
135


> Thanks very much in advance for participating.
>
> -Adam
> Adam Levin, Senior Unix Systems Administrator | http://www.audible.com/
> Audible, Inc.           The man gave a shrug which indicated that although
> Wayne, NJ, USA          the world did indeed have many problems, this
> 973-890-4070 x297       was one of them that was not his.
>
>



From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 10 11:30:54 2000
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Subject: Re: Reliability and assurances
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I think it might be a question of phrasing.  When I first read this, I saw "work
any of the time" as equivalent to "work 100% of the time".  I think what he
means is "work at any given time".  As a counterexample, assume a mythical
subsystem that will never fail for time < t1, and always fail at time >= t1
(with 100% certainty).  Such as subsystem meets criteria A, and meets criteria B
when time < t1.
You could allow for less certainty by better defining 'assured'; is the
probability of failure < .95 enough, etc.

Devising such a subsystem is left as an exercise for the engineers.


Mario Obejas wrote:
> 
> Mark R. Lindsey wrote:
> >I'm working on a theory: if (A) you can't be assured that a subsystem is going
> >to work all of the time, then (B) you can't be assured that a subsystem is
> >going to work any of the time.
> >
> >Does that seem reasonable?
> 
> Not to me. Maybe you wrote it different than what you intended,
> e.g., you meant "system" instead of subsystem in your B clause.
> IMHO, your A and B clauses need to be switched.
> Let's substitute numerical values:
> all=100%
> any="<100%"
> 
> I'd agree with
> (B) If
>   one "can't be assured that a subsystem is going to work <100% of the time"
> (A) Then
>   one "can't be assured that a subsystem is going to work 100% of the time".
> 
> But respectfully, I don't agree with your original statement. As the example of
> redundancy pointed out, I can have a system (e.g., a RAID box) and be assured
> that a component *will* fail at some point, yet redundancy allows the
> containing system to work "100%" of the time. In other words, I can have
> components of known finite lifetimes in a system, yet the system has greater
> reliability than the best of its parts.

-- 
Paul R. Joslin            paul.joslin@weirdness.com            +1 513 576 2012
I might be able to shoehorn a reference count in on top of the numeric
value by disallowing multiple references on scalars with a numeric value,
but it wouldn't be as clean.  I do occasionally worry about that. --lwall


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 11 09:18:17 2000
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From: Wim Peeters <wim@sonycom.com>
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Hello everybody,

A member of my team wanted to go to a Citrix
course about their 'Metaframe' product.

So far so good.

However they ask for, and I quote:
'The above courses require WindowsNT 3.51 or 4.0 certification.
 Please attach Windows NT Server Exam Results'

I seems funny, a course price 1500$, and they ask you previous
certification results. Let the money roll...

So this is what some of us feared, experience doesn't count anymore,
You only need to have the certificates.

(I even don't wanna talk about my past experiences with NT
 certified engineers...though the result was a salary raise for us >-))
 main problem is that these certificates seem to easy to get)

'groumpf' regards

Wim

-- 
Wim Peeters     

System Manager

SONY Suprastructure Center Europe                     (SUPC-E)
SONY Digital Media Europe - Brussels                   (DME-B)
Sint Stevens Woluwestraat 55 (Rue de Woluwe-Saint-Etienne)
1130 Brussel (Bruxelles), Belgium
Telephone: +32 2 724 86 42 Telefax: +32 2 726 26 86
e-mail: Wim.Peeters@sonycom.com


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 11 12:49:16 2000
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From: DL Hilton <hilton@entelos.com>
To: "'Wim Peeters'" <wim@sonycom.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: Examination results before...
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:48:26 -0800
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Yup - a whole bunch of us are going to be "un-certified" into extinction.
Red Hat just sent me a brochure to get my "RHCE" - yes folks - there is now
a Red Hat Certified Engineer certificate, complete with courses and "Exam
Cram" material.

I have just made a promise to myself, to wit:

>From now on, when someone asks me to give them advice or help solve a
technical problem, I'm going to ask what Certificates they possess.  If they
have one related to whatever it is they are asking me about - F*** 'em -
they probably get paid more than this 25 year industry veteran anyway.

DL Hilton


-----Original Message-----
From: Wim Peeters [mailto:wim@sonycom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 9:17 AM
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Examination results before...


Hello everybody,

A member of my team wanted to go to a Citrix
course about their 'Metaframe' product.

So far so good.

However they ask for, and I quote:
'The above courses require WindowsNT 3.51 or 4.0 certification.
 Please attach Windows NT Server Exam Results'

I seems funny, a course price 1500$, and they ask you previous
certification results. Let the money roll...

So this is what some of us feared, experience doesn't count anymore,
You only need to have the certificates.

(I even don't wanna talk about my past experiences with NT
 certified engineers...though the result was a salary raise for us >-))
 main problem is that these certificates seem to easy to get)

'groumpf' regards

Wim

-- 
Wim Peeters     

System Manager

SONY Suprastructure Center Europe                     (SUPC-E)
SONY Digital Media Europe - Brussels                   (DME-B)
Sint Stevens Woluwestraat 55 (Rue de Woluwe-Saint-Etienne)
1130 Brussel (Bruxelles), Belgium
Telephone: +32 2 724 86 42 Telefax: +32 2 726 26 86
e-mail: Wim.Peeters@sonycom.com


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 11 13:02:21 2000
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From: "Mark Boltz" <mark.boltz@transnexus.com>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
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Subject: Re: Examination results before...
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Hey,

> (I even don't wanna talk about my past experiences with NT
>  certified engineers...though the result was a salary raise for us >-))
>  main problem is that these certificates seem to easy to get)

Yep. Send me $ 1,500 and I'll be happy to certify you in NT. I've got
Photoshop and Illustrator... ;-)

I agree that the trend towards watered-down certification, especially when
it comes to MSCE's and their ilk (the certifications, not the people), is
awful.  I've worked with non-certified people (like myself) who were
incredibly competent and skilled, and I've met many who had all the papers,
but had no idea what they were doing...

[ Note:  MSCE != incompetent in all sets, just that MSCE != competent in all
sets either. ]

----------
Mark Boltz
Sr. System Administrator
TransNexus, LLC
http://www.transnexus.com/



From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 11 15:09:05 2000
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Subject: Re: Examination results before...
To: wim@sonycom.com (Wim Peeters)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:08:46 EST
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> 
> Hello everybody,
> 
> A member of my team wanted to go to a Citrix
> course about their 'Metaframe' product.
> 
> So far so good.
> 
> However they ask for, and I quote:
> 'The above courses require WindowsNT 3.51 or 4.0 certification.
>  Please attach Windows NT Server Exam Results'
>

Weird.  I've taken lots of NT courses (my job for the last few years has been
to being the lead NT admin at our site) and have never been asked for my
certification.  At present I don't have one, and its not that high a priority
for me.  I may get it, but working on my PhD is more important. (my BS, MCS,
and MMIS are to me more impressive then a MCSE).

I'm taking an official Citrix metaframe course with PPI (productivity point)
and on one demained my certification or exam result.  There IS a prerequisit
level of knowledge, but I have that.
 
> 
> (I even don't wanna talk about my past experiences with NT
>  certified engineers...though the result was a salary raise for us >-))
>  main problem is that these certificates seem to easy to get)
> 

Well, the resent SANS salary survey shows that NT admins are paid BELOW the 
range of the average UNIX admin.  So much for the "get your MCSE and earn
big bucks...".  Also, a recent issue of M$ Certified Professional Magazine ran
a LOT of letters recently from people who got their certification thinking it
would do great things for their careers and having it be ignored by their
companies.  (don't think it was just a slap against certifications.  a lot of
the letters showed companies with a lack of respect for any sysadmin/support
types.)

Certifications are nice, but to me knowledge and experience are more important,
and certifications are NOT necessarily a gauge of that.

Michael R. Brown
Motorola, Inc.


--
Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.  
Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 11 15:48:03 2000
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From: DL Hilton <hilton@entelos.com>
To: "'Mark Boltz'" <mark.boltz@transnexus.com>
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Subject: RE: Examination results before...
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Sorry, I rant.

<clipped>

DL



From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 11 16:11:30 2000
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On Tue, 11 Jan 2000, DL Hilton wrote:
> I have just made a promise to myself, to wit:
> >From now on, when someone asks me to give them advice or help solve a
> technical problem, I'm going to ask what Certificates they possess.  If they
> have one related to whatever it is they are asking me about - F*** 'em -
> they probably get paid more than this 25 year industry veteran anyway.

This isn't  so much a response as a variation on a theme.


My Unix certification rant: When I worked for a certain company that made
_I_ncredibly _B_ig _M_achines, we were encouraged to get certified, and
people often hung the test scores, not the certificates, on the wall, out
of pride.  It was there that I learned to value certification as a form of
continuing education.  Me, I learned what I know about Unix by spending
most of what I earned at my student job on every O'Reilly I could find. I
even owned the Curses O'Reilly, for god's sake. And then I'd make love to
those books. It was really disturbing to get into the big world and find
out that only one of my coworkers (hi Greg) read tech references on his
own time.  But when my teammates went for a cert, they'd hit the books,
and the result was that they'd gain in knowledge they'd never had sought
out for its own sake.  Point being that if someone gets a certification,
it's at least arguable that they're _trying_, and if they seek to obtain
the knowledge of a more experienced admin, so much the better. Course,
it's probably wise to be wary of people who feel the need to make
gratuitous references to their certifications (or college degrees, for
that matter).  I don't blame anyone for getting sick of paper tigers,
though;  I worked with a fully pedigreed MCSE who was unable to set the
system clock on his servers.

Regarding NT certifications:  It's unfortunate, but not everyone in the
extended family of systems administration is a big geek.  NT does not
attract big geeks.  Big geeks like cool tech and nifty puzzles to solve.
NT is not cool tech, and among the many, many things NT is, it is not,
never has been, and will likely never be nifty.  My experience is that NT
admins tend to be bright folks who decided to bootstrap themselves into a
computer career. For people who are looking for a career but don't yet
have a Clue, certification is a well-paved 8-lane highway with a brightly
lit on-ramp. This highway doesn't lead directly to a Clue, but there's an
unmarked access road if you know where to look. Most of the time, the
wayward novice just needs a friendly shove off the road.  And of course,
lots of people never get a Clue and believe that the highway is all there
is.  Luckily, these folks are driving around in bright orange Dodge
Challengers [license: GOTMCSE] with glasspack exhausts and are easy to
spot and avoid.

--
Benjy Feen | benjy@monkeybagel.com | http://www.monkeybagel.com
--





From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 11 20:11:39 2000
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To: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
X-Mailer: MH 8.6.3
Subject: Re: brief email survey 
In-Reply-to: <Pine.SUN.4.10.10001100830330.25771-100000@westnet.com> 
	Message Apparently From Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com> 
	Dated Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:38:21 EST.
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:11:41 -0800
From: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>
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> I hope nobody minds my doing this little email survey.  Please reply
> directly to me and I'll collate and post the results when I have a good
> number of responses (hopefully a week or so).
 
> 1) What email server software does your organization use (sendmail,
> postfix, qmail, exim, etc)?

	sendmail, qmail and some exim (on lazily configured
	Debian boxes).

	... as a Linux support organization we run them all
	in some roles (keeps on us on our toes).
 
> 2) What email client software does your organization use (Eudora, Outlook,
> Pegasus, Pine, etc)?

	I use mh-e, many of our TSE's use mutt,
	many of our other users use Netscape Communicator
	and just about anything else they like (even
	MS Windows stuff in some cases).
 
> 3a) Do your users access mail from remote locations?

	Yes.
 
> 3b) Do you use some sort of POP-Before-SMTP protocol for those users in
> 3a, or do you require them to use the remote SMTP server (or, do you
> simply have an open relay or hardcoded remote addresses)?

	.... I could tell you but ....

	(POP through VPN/IPSec).
 
> 4) What is your message size limit?  Do you ever reconfigure your mail
> server temporarily to make exceptions for "important" large emails coming
> out of your organization?

	(None)
 
> 5) Do you implement mailbox quotas on a per-user basis?  If so, how big is
> that quota?

	No
 
> 6) How big is your organization (# users, # admins, # unix servers, #
> workstations (PC or otherwise))?

	~ 150 users --- mostly Linux desktops, servers, and
	laptops.
 
> Thanks very much in advance for participating.  
 

	I realize these answer look odd to most corporate
	sysadmins.  We are a Linux support company --- so
	we do things a little "woolier" than the usual
	practice that SAGE members would recommend.


--
Jim Dennis                                             jdennis@linuxcare.com
Linuxcare: Linux Corporate Support Team:            http://www.linuxcare.com


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 11 22:50:52 2000
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Subject: Re: brief email survey
To: levins@westnet.com (Adam and Christine Levin)
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	"Adam and Christine Levin" at Jan 10, 2000 08:38:21 AM
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"Adam and Christine Levin says:"
> 
> 
> I hope nobody minds my doing this little email survey.  Please reply
> directly to me and I'll collate and post the results when I have a good
> number of responses (hopefully a week or so).
> 
> 1) What email server software does your organization use (sendmail,
> postfix, qmail, exim, etc)?

sendmail


> 
> 2) What email client software does your organization use (Eudora, Outlook,
> Pegasus, Pine, etc)?

elm pine mutt mh xmh Eudora Outlook Netscape cat ...

> 
> 3a) Do your users access mail from remote locations?

Yes, 80% of them come in over the Internet.

> 
> 3b) Do you use some sort of POP-Before-SMTP protocol for those users in

Yes, along with SecurID aunthentication.


> 3a, or do you require them to use the remote SMTP server (or, do you
> simply have an open relay or hardcoded remote addresses)?

YARRGG !

> 
> 4) What is your message size limit?  Do you ever reconfigure your mail
> server temporarily to make exceptions for "important" large emails coming
> out of your organization?

Varies from list to list, we have hundreds.

> 
> 5) Do you implement mailbox quotas on a per-user basis?  If so, how big is
> that quota?

Yes 12Mb.

> 
> 6) How big is your organization (# users, # admins, # unix servers, #
> workstations (PC or otherwise))?

~500 users.  Admin question is hard as we are all admins (we're a
consulting organization) but there are 3 first line Unix guys and
2 first line NT guys.  For mail there are a total of six boxes
involved, 3 Linux, two Solaris and 1 NT.  Not all are servers, some
are relay/gateway boxes.  We have about 70 client machines on the
inside (mix of desktops and laptops, most running win9x, a smattering
of Xterminals and you guess and I'll agree on the "outside".



> 
> Thanks very much in advance for participating.  

You're welcome ...

JT

> 
> -Adam
> Adam Levin, Senior Unix Systems Administrator | http://www.audible.com/
> Audible, Inc.           The man gave a shrug which indicated that although
> Wayne, NJ, USA          the world did indeed have many problems, this
> 973-890-4070 x297       was one of them that was not his.
> 
> 
> 


-- 
=========================================================================
|Jeffrey S. Tyler                                  Office 512-263-5500  |
|Collective Technologies                       Cell/Pager 512-699-8225  |
|jtyler@colltech.com                [Home phone/fax] 512-263-0417/1817  |
| -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=|
| Unix, you have to be smart enough to plug in a toaster to use it.     |
| Kristen Tyler (my teenage daughter)                                   |
=========================================================================


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 12 10:38:36 2000
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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 13:38:27 -0500
From: paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu
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Folks -

If you haven't seen the Nominating Committee report for the
upcoming Usenix elections, take a peek.  No females, and no sysadmins.
Last _I_ looked (admittedly, several months ago), more than half of 
Usenix members were SAGE members (and it's unclear how many are Usenix
members solely because it's a requirement to be a SAGE member).

Don't get me wrong - all the folks the nominating committee has selected
are good people, and probably will be fine Board members.  I've been
a Usenix member for over 10 years, and as far as _Usenix_ goes, this may be
a good decision.  I'm just not sure what effect (if any) this might have on
SAGE...

Nominations are still open (they close 1/26).  See 
	http://www.usenix.org/whatsnew/election.html
for details.  This _is_ a serious undertaking, though - prospective Board 
members need to realize the time- and energy- committment involved.  The
best thing to do if you're interested in running is to get in touch with
one of the current Board members (see http://www.usenix.org/directory/board.html
for a list) and ask them about it.

Happy Y2k to all.

Pat Wilson
paw@dartmouth.edu



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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:52:01 -0500
From: paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu
Message-Id: <200001121952.OAA325737@rigel.dartmouth.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Usenix Board nominating committe report
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Oops - two questions in the last 30 minutes ask where I
saw the report.  It's been posted to comp.org.usenix; I'll 
forward a copy here.  

--paw


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From: Pat Wilson <paw@coos.dartmouth.edu>
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[Forwarded from comp.org.usenix --paw]


Report of the Nominating Committee

The USENIX nominating committee (Trent Hein, Steve Johnson, Evi Nemeth,
Dennis Ritchie, and Margo Selzer) has beaten the bushes over the past
few months searching for a superb slate of candidates for the 2000
biennial election of the USENIX Board of Directors.  And we have
found them.  Our nominations are:

	Dan Geer, @Stake, for President
	Andrew Hume, AT&T Research, for Treasurer
	Kirk McKusick, Consultant, for Vice President
	Mike Jones, Microsoft Research, for Secretary

	John Gilmore, Electronic Frontier Foundation, for Director
	Jon Maddog Hall, Linux International, for Director
	Dirk Hohndel, Suse Linux, for Director
	Darrell Long, Univ. of California, Santa Cruz, for Director
	Marcus Ranum, Network Flight Recorder, for Director
	Avi Rubin, AT&T Research, for Director

Two key positions on the USENIX Board are the President 
and Treasurer. The president must provide vision and guidance
for the organization, as well as interface with the staff 
and chair the board meetings. The treasurer is responsible
for not only keeping an eagle eye on finances but also for
advising USENIX on investing its endowment funds.

Andrew Hume has served as USENIX President for the last four years
Dan served as both Vice President and Treasurer (two years each).
We are nominating Dan for President and Andrew for treasurer.  Both
have done superb jobs in their respective positions, and it is our
hope that by broadening each of their focuses, the team can be even
more effective than it has been in the past.

Dan Geer is well known as a visionary, and we believe that the role of
President will give him an opportunity to do for USENIX what he has done
for any of a number of different organizations.  Andrew wrote the software
that gives AT&T real time auditing capabilities of all our long distance
phone bills, so we hope to take advantage of his expertise to maintain
and grow the financial stability of the organization.

In short, both Andrew and Dan have enormous skill sets and by changing
their positions, we hope to take even better advantage of them.

We are nominating Kirk McKusick to run for the position of Vice
President.  Kirk is a past President of the USENIX association and
represents both the academic community as well as the free software
constituency.   Kirk has a PhD in Computer Science and an MBA from
the University of California, Berkeley; he was the Research Computer
Scientist for Berkeley's Computing Systems Research Group (the people
who brought you BSD); and is now an instructor at both Berkeley and
UCLA.  He has recently been quite active in the development and evolution
of the Freenix track at the USENIX Technical Conference and is the program
chair for the Freenix track at the Annual Meeting in San Diego in June.

We are nominating Mike Jones for the position of Secretary.  Mike has
been an active participant in the USENIX community for the past decade.
He earned his PhD at Carnegie Mellon University working on the Mach project
and has been a researcher in Microsoft's Research Lab for the past several
years.  Mike publishes regularly in USENIX conferences, has served on a
number of program committees (both the Annual Technical Conference and
OSDI), was instrumental in starting the USENIX Windows NT Symposia, and
will be program co-chair for the 2000 OSDI.  Mike brings a strong academic
bent to the committee as well as boundless energy and a commitment to USENIX.

We have nominated six candidates to run for the four positions of
Director at large.  The most important criteria for board members is
their willingness and ability to get things done and work together
productively.  Your board does a tremendous amount of work for you and
for the organization, and we need eight actively engaged members.  For
each of the candidates we are nominating for Director at large, we outline
the constituency they represent and the particular strengths that led
to their nomination.  In a later issue of ;login, the candidates themselves
will issue statements describing their backgrounds and goals for serving
as board members.

Alphabetically:

John Gilmore was an early employee of Sun and Cygnus and is a founder
of the Electronic Frontier Foundation. He has been very active in the
societal side of UNIX and the whole IT movement.  John has been outspoken
and effective at challenging things like the Computer Decency Act, the
alleged safety of 40 bit keys for cryptographic use, the export controls
legislation, etc.  He brings to the board a wider view than previous
board members.

Jon (Maddog) Hall is currently serving his first term as a USENIX board
member.  Maddog was a Unix supporter at Digital for many years, and now
is affiliated with VA Linux and Linux International.  He is a strong
representative of the Linux community and cares very deeply about the
interaction and relationship between the USENIX and Linux communities.
As a current board member, he adds an element of depth to the slate
of nominees.

Dirk Hohndel got started with UNIX as a sysadmin managing Suse Linux
systems while he was a Computer Science student at Wurzburg University.
After finishing his Masters degree he went to a startup, on to
Deutsche Bank and is now with Suse Linux in Germany.  He may be best
known to our community for his work on the XFree86 window system for PCs
which he did in his spare time and still helps maintain.  Dirk wants to
strengthen the bond between the USENIX and Linux communities.

Darrell Long is a Professor of Computer Science at the University
of California at Santa Cruz.  He has been a member of the board's
scholastic committee for the past few years, on several program
committees, and publishes at USENIX conferences regularly.  Darrell
adds academic representation to the board.  He is concerned with
maintaining the high quality of our conferences.

Marcus Ranum is well known in the security and SAGE communities and
a frequent USENIX tutorial speaker.  Marcus was program chair of the
Intrusion Detection workshop and on several program committees.
Marcus has been running his own small company, Network Flight Recorder,
that sells a security monitoring software package used by system
administrators.

Avi Rubin is a young researcher at AT&T and an adjunct faculty member
at New York University.  He has been program chair for both the
Security conference and for the General Conference.  Avi became
involved with USENIX as a student when he published his first
paper here; now 6 years and many papers later, he is ready to start
giving back to the organization.  Avi is a finisher, gets things
done, and will be a hard worker on the board.

We were fortunate to get a good mix of excellent, experienced
folks and some really terrific new folks.  The committee is aware
that the slate contains no women.  We approached several outstanding
possible candidates, but other commitments prevented their acceptance.

As in any selection process, we have surely overlooked several
well-qualified, capable and willing candidates.  Any USENIX member
can self-nominate for the board by petitioning the organization.
See http://www.usenix.org/whatsnew/election.html or contact the
USENIX office for the details and deadlines for self-nomination.

The USENIX Nominating Committee,
	Evi Nemeth, University of Colorado, Chair
	Trent Hein, XOR Network Engineering 
	Steve Johnson, Transmeta Corp.
	Dennis Ritchie, Bell Laboratories 
	Margo Selzer, Harvard University


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 12 13:28:21 2000
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From: "Duregon, Marino" <Marino_Duregon@mentorg.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Performance Computing (was Unix Review) closing down ...
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 13:27:42 -0800
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Hello all,

just got in the mail my January 2000 issue of Performance Computing 
(formerly known as Unix Review) and read with disbelief that 
"For a variety of business reasons, Miller Freeman has decided to
discontinue the publication of this magazine. Thus, with this issue
we bid you, our faithful reader, farewell, and extend to you our
gratitude for the support and additional insight that you have
provided to us over these many years."

Pretty sad. After the printed version of Byte (a new, online version,
is available at byte.com ) here's another staple of computing history
that is closing down. I wonder if they are consolidating operations and
folding into the 'SysAdmin' magazine.

What do you guys think ?

Marino


---
Marino Duregon, Mentor Graphics Corp.| email: marino_duregon@mentorg.com
8005 SW Boeckman Rd. - E2322         | phone: (503) 685-4796
Wilsonville, OR  97070-7777          |   AIM: mduregon99



From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 12 15:27:31 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Performance Computing (was Unix Review) closing down ... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Jan 2000 13:27:42 PST."
	<0B30C465AF9FD311BB6B00508B449DEE384244@svr-orw-exc-01.wv.mentorg.com> 
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:27:19 -0500
From: William LeFebvre <wnl@groupsys.com>
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Marino Duregon wrote:
> just got in the mail my January 2000 issue of Performance Computing 
> (formerly known as Unix Review) and read with disbelief that 
> "For a variety of business reasons, Miller Freeman has decided to
> discontinue the publication of this magazine. 

> Pretty sad. After the printed version of Byte (a new, online version,
> is available at byte.com ) here's another staple of computing history
> that is closing down. I wonder if they are consolidating operations and
> folding into the 'SysAdmin' magazine.

To the best of my knowledge they are not folding in to SysAdmin,
however my understanding is that SysAdmin is not threatened.  I was
certainly saddened by the news, but then I had a vested interest in
the magazine.  Note that I am only speaking for myself here, and
not in any official capacity.

I have attached the official press release that announced this last
December.  It says more than Mr. Barker did in his editorial.  Be sure
to read between the lines, too!  ;-)

		William LeFebvre   (Daemons & Dragons)
		Group sys Consulting
		wnl@groupsys.com
		+1 770 813 3224


--

Thursday December 16, 12:00 pm Eastern Time
 
Company Press Release
 
SOURCE: CMP Media
 
Performance Computing and Windows Systems
Magazines Cease Publication
 
SAN MATEO, Calif., Dec. 15 /PRNewswire/ -- CMP Media Inc.
(http://www.cmp.com) announced today that it will cease publication of
Performance Computing Magazine and Windows Systems Magazine (formerly known
as Windows NT Systems). Both magazines were part of the former Miller
Freeman technology portfolio recently integrated with CMP Media. The
production run for each magazine concludes with the January 2000 edition.
 
``Looking across the CMP Media portfolio of properties, we knew we would
best serve our customers by streamlining our business portfolio,'' said
Regina Starr Ridley, president of CMP's Specialized Technologies Group.
``The decision was difficult to make, given the dedication of Windows
Systems' and Performance Computing's staffs to the publications and their
histories with the company,'' said Ridley. ``However, we are confident that
our readers' information needs and our advertisers' need to effectively
reach the most technically knowledgeable buyers of high-level IT products
can be best met by other CMP products such as InformationWeek, Intelligent
Enterprise, Sys Admin, Dr. Dobb's Journal, and Network Magazine.''
 
Performance Computing, formerly UNIX Review, was started in 1983. Miller
Freeman bought the publication in 1985 and for many years it was one of the
company's largest and most successful publications. Windows Systems,
launched in 1997, focused on systems management and administration.
 
--


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 12 15:36:55 2000
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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:36:17 -0800 (PST)
To: "Duregon, Marino" <Marino_Duregon@mentorg.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Performance Computing (was Unix Review) closing down ...
In-Reply-To: <0B30C465AF9FD311BB6B00508B449DEE384244@svr-orw-exc-01.wv.mentorg.com>
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Well, that is a real disappointment. I also haven't been terribly
impressed with Sysadmin. *SIGH*

--Melinda :o)
"Jumping from 18-wheelers can be a health hazard, safety experts warn."
-The Wall Street Journal

On Wed, 12 Jan 2000, Duregon, Marino wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> just got in the mail my January 2000 issue of Performance Computing 
> (formerly known as Unix Review) and read with disbelief that 
> "For a variety of business reasons, Miller Freeman has decided to
> discontinue the publication of this magazine. Thus, with this issue
> we bid you, our faithful reader, farewell, and extend to you our
> gratitude for the support and additional insight that you have
> provided to us over these many years."
> 
> Pretty sad. After the printed version of Byte (a new, online version,
> is available at byte.com ) here's another staple of computing history
> that is closing down. I wonder if they are consolidating operations and
> folding into the 'SysAdmin' magazine.
> 
> What do you guys think ?
> 
> Marino
> 
> 
> ---
> Marino Duregon, Mentor Graphics Corp.| email: marino_duregon@mentorg.com
> 8005 SW Boeckman Rd. - E2322         | phone: (503) 685-4796
> Wilsonville, OR  97070-7777          |   AIM: mduregon99
> 



From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 12 16:34:52 2000
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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:34:36 -0800
From: David Alban <alban@datawire.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Performance Computing (was Unix Review) closing down ...
Message-ID: <20000112163436.B31749@datawire.com>
Reply-To: extasia@mindspring.com
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	from Duregon, Marino on Wed, Jan 12, 2000 at 01:27:42PM -0800
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At 2000/01/12/13:27 -0800 Duregon, Marino <Marino_Duregon@mentorg.com> wrote:
> "For a variety of business reasons, Miller Freeman has decided to
> discontinue the publication of [Performance Computing]. Thus, with this issue
> we bid you, our faithful reader, farewell, and extend to you our
> gratitude for the support and additional insight that you have
> provided to us over these many years."

My guess:  the Web has made this sort of publication less important
than it used to be.

David
-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 12 16:50:09 2000
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From: DL Hilton <hilton@entelos.com>
To: "'Duregon, Marino'" <Marino_Duregon@mentorg.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: Performance Computing (was Unix Review) closing down ...
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:49:16 -0800
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Man, shoot! We lost Byte, then KiloBaud, then Dr. Dobb's Journal of Computer
Calisthenics and Orthodontia (Running Light Without Over Byte), and now Unix
Review/Performance Computing - what's next? Webster's Dictionary?????  I'm
hanging on to my Scelbi 8008 code card - it's the only thing
left..............


DL


-----Original Message-----
From: Duregon, Marino [mailto:Marino_Duregon@mentorg.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 1:28 PM
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Performance Computing (was Unix Review) closing down ...


Hello all,

just got in the mail my January 2000 issue of Performance Computing 
(formerly known as Unix Review) and read with disbelief that 
"For a variety of business reasons, Miller Freeman has decided to
discontinue the publication of this magazine. Thus, with this issue
we bid you, our faithful reader, farewell, and extend to you our
gratitude for the support and additional insight that you have
provided to us over these many years."

Pretty sad. After the printed version of Byte (a new, online version,
is available at byte.com ) here's another staple of computing history
that is closing down. I wonder if they are consolidating operations and
folding into the 'SysAdmin' magazine.

What do you guys think ?

Marino


---
Marino Duregon, Mentor Graphics Corp.| email: marino_duregon@mentorg.com
8005 SW Boeckman Rd. - E2322         | phone: (503) 685-4796
Wilsonville, OR  97070-7777          |   AIM: mduregon99


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 12 17:10:15 2000
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To: "Duregon, Marino" <Marino_Duregon@mentorg.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Performance Computing (was Unix Review) closing down ...
References: <0B30C465AF9FD311BB6B00508B449DEE384244@svr-orw-exc-01.wv.mentorg.com>
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: 12 Jan 2000 17:10:02 -0800
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>>>>> "Duregon," == Duregon, Marino <Marino_Duregon@mentorg.com> writes:

Duregon,> Pretty sad. After the printed version of Byte (a new, online version,
Duregon,> is available at byte.com ) here's another staple of computing history
Duregon,> that is closing down. I wonder if they are consolidating operations and
Duregon,> folding into the 'SysAdmin' magazine.

My Perl column will continue to be published in SysAdmin, but I don't
know the rest of the story.

And by the way, if you wanna see your name in print, please send me
IDEAS.  I will credit any useful idea.  Past columns are archived at
http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/UnixReview/ (the legacy of the name
continues).

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 12 17:18:28 2000
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Subject: Re: Performance Computing (was Unix Review) closing down ...
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	<20000112163436.B31749@datawire.com>
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: 12 Jan 2000 17:18:12 -0800
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>>>>> "David" == David Alban <alban@datawire.com> writes:

David> My guess:  the Web has made this sort of publication less important
David> than it used to be.

A free magazine that's 80% ads? :)

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 12 18:07:40 2000
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From: DL Hilton <hilton@entelos.com>
To: "'Robert Hajime Lanning'" <lanning@kewltech.com>,
	Marino_Duregon@mentorg.com
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Subject: RE: Performance Computing (was Unix Review) closing down ...
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:07:00 -0800
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AAAahhhhh, it was the foot, was it?  By the highly pitched screams I'd have
thought they hit a wee bit higher.

DL


-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Hajime Lanning [mailto:lanning@kewltech.com]
Sent: None
To: Marino_Duregon@mentorg.com
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Performance Computing (was Unix Review) closing down ...


Well they kindof shot themselves in the foot when they changed from
Unix Review.

---- As written by Duregon, Marino:
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> just got in the mail my January 2000 issue of Performance Computing 
> (formerly known as Unix Review) and read with disbelief that 
> "For a variety of business reasons, Miller Freeman has decided to
> discontinue the publication of this magazine. Thus, with this issue
> we bid you, our faithful reader, farewell, and extend to you our
> gratitude for the support and additional insight that you have
> provided to us over these many years."
> 
> Pretty sad. After the printed version of Byte (a new, online version,
> is available at byte.com ) here's another staple of computing history
> that is closing down. I wonder if they are consolidating operations and
> folding into the 'SysAdmin' magazine.
> 
> What do you guys think ?
> 
> Marino
> 
> 
> ---
> Marino Duregon, Mentor Graphics Corp.| email: marino_duregon@mentorg.com
> 8005 SW Boeckman Rd. - E2322         | phone: (503) 685-4796
> Wilsonville, OR  97070-7777          |   AIM: mduregon99
> 
> 


-- 
/* Robert Hajime Lanning                             lanning@lanning.cc
** Trade: Unix Systems Administrator (Senior level)
*/
#include <std_disclaimer.h>


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 12 18:32:18 2000
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From: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:32:15 -0500
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: At 2000/01/12/13:27 -0800 Duregon, Marino <Marino_Duregon@mentorg.com> wrote:
: > "For a variety of business reasons, Miller Freeman has decided to
: > discontinue the publication of [Performance Computing]. Thus, with
: > this issue we bid you, our faithful reader, farewell, and extend to
: > you our gratitude for the support and additional insight that you
: > have provided to us over these many years."

David said:
: My guess: the Web has made this sort of publication less important
: than it used to be.

I'm not specifically arguing with you, because you're probably right.
But that begs another question:

Where can you go on the web to find that collection and quality of writers
and advertisers? Most of the material on the web is of relatively low
quality compared to printed matter.

I tend to think that the web makes middlemen like magazine publishers
even *more* important. More than ever, we need experienced people
willing to sift through the poorly-written cruft to find interesting
articles for us.(*)

Obviously, I'm disappointed to see them go. Please post any suggestions
on similarly valuable sources. I'd also be interested to learn where the 
regular writers from Unix Review start publishing, because I've learned
a good bit from them.





(*) Ganesan, Ravi: ``The Messyware Advantage: The precipitous rise
of the middleman.'', Communications of the ACM, November, 1999.






From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 12 20:28:52 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Performance Computing (was Unix Review) closing down ... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:32:15 EST."
	<200001130232.VAA31128@vielle.datasys.net> 
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:28:44 -0500
From: William LeFebvre <wnl@groupsys.com>
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> Obviously, I'm disappointed to see them go. Please post any suggestions
> on similarly valuable sources. I'd also be interested to learn where the 
> regular writers from Unix Review start publishing, because I've learned
> a good bit from them.

Keep watching.......I'll turn up somewhere again someday.  But
probably not right away.  I've got other projects cooking in the near
term that make it inadvisable to pursue another monthly right away.

I especially want to know where SKB ends up.  I'm insanely jealous of
his talent, and I still love reading his column!

				William LeFebvre
				Group sys Consulting
				wnl@groupsys.com
				+1 770 813 3224



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From: "Petersen, Dwight" <dpeters@nswc.navy.mil>
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Subject: Usenix board
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:22:18 -0500
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Both the lack of any women and the lack of any SAGe members among the
nominees are noteworthy.  However of the two, the lack of even one women
seems the most significant.  No doubt next time the nominees will all be
women, which will balance things out.  Seriously, I expect that there were
no women willing to serve?  Now if we're seriously concerned, perhaps the
thing to do would be to devote some SAGe money to developing some women in
SAGe to be candidates next time around.  (Of course, if were not serious we
can just whine and complain.)  And since I'm shooting my mouth (or fingers)
off, if the SAGe board supports the concept, I'll pledge $10 to the cause of
SAGe for board members (of USENIX).  (The money to be used at the discretion
of some SAGe officer.)  Just tell me where to send the check (no home
addresses guys!)  Anyone else?

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Both the lack of any women and the lack of any SAGe =
members among the nominees are noteworthy.&nbsp; However of the two, =
the lack of even one women seems the most significant.&nbsp; No doubt =
next time the nominees will all be women, which will balance things =
out.&nbsp; Seriously, I expect that there were no women willing to =
serve?&nbsp; Now if we're seriously concerned, perhaps the thing to do =
would be to devote some SAGe money to developing some women in SAGe to =
be candidates next time around.&nbsp; (Of course, if were not serious =
we can just whine and complain.)&nbsp; And since I'm shooting my mouth =
(or fingers) off, if the SAGe board supports the concept, I'll pledge =
$10 to the cause of SAGe for board members (of USENIX).&nbsp; (The =
money to be used at the discretion of some SAGe officer.)&nbsp; Just =
tell me where to send the check (no home addresses guys!)&nbsp; Anyone =
else?</FONT></P>

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From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 13 07:55:01 2000
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Subject: Re: Usenix board 
In-reply-to: (Your message of Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:22:18 EST.)
	<31A48D25E618D211820700A0C9B4143DD2C479@luxor.nswc.navy.mil> 
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"Petersen, Dwight" writes:

>  Seriously, I expect that there were
>  no women willing to serve?  Now if we're seriously concerned, perhaps the
>  thing to do would be to devote some SAGe money to developing some women in
>  SAGe to be candidates next time around.  (Of course, if were not serious we
>  can just whine and complain.)  

I'm sorry - I don't see how money has any bearing on this at all.
Evi says that the NomCom wasn't able to talk any of the women it
asked into running, but they certainly didn't ask _everyone_.  And
this is Usenix, not US politics - you don't _buy_ nominations.

Obviously I've missed your entire point.  I'd hate to see SAGE
spend money on getting folks (men or women) elected to the Usenix 
Board; I'd hate to see "women in Usenix" and "SAGE" be synonymous
in people's minds (there is an overlap, but there are non-SAGE
Usenix women, and non-female SAGE members, after all).

I would have been surprised, but not perhaps dismayed, if either
no women (*very* surprising) *or* no SAGE types (male _or_
female) were put up, but finding neither really confuses me.

--paw




From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 13 08:32:46 2000
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From: Michael Rogero Brown <brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com>
Message-Id: <200001131632.LAA11190@plhp049.comm.mot.com>
Subject: Re: Performance Computing (was Unix Review) closing down ... 
To: wnl@groupsys.com (William LeFebvre)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 11:32:27 EST
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <200001122327.SAA24236@ocee.groupsys.com>;
	from "William LeFebvre" at Jan 12, 100 6:27 pm
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> 
> Thursday December 16, 12:00 pm Eastern Time
>  
> Company Press Release
>  
> SOURCE: CMP Media
>  
> Performance Computing and Windows Systems
> Magazines Cease Publication
>

They are ending BOTH Performance Computing AND Windows Systems Magazine??
With PerfComp no more, there is no other Unix mag out there but 
Server/Workstation Expert (formerly Sun Expert).  And Windows Systems Magazine
was a great NT admin mag that served as a good counter to Windows NT Magazine
and more blantenly pro-MS NT rags like M$ Certified Pro.  As a NT admin, I
found the columns and articles in Windows System Mag to be great.  Windows NT
Mag has nothing like them.
  
> ``However, we are confident that
> our readers' information needs and our advertisers' need to effectively
> reach the most technically knowledgeable buyers of high-level IT products
> can be best met by other CMP products such as InformationWeek, Intelligent
> Enterprise, Sys Admin, Dr. Dobb's Journal, and Network Magazine.''
>  

Sorry, don't agree.  I get some of those mags and NONE cover the same areas
as PerfComp & Windows Systems.  These two were aimed at SUPPORT people, not
IT buyers.  These others just don't aim at those areas.

Stupid.

--
Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.  
Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 13 09:18:06 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
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Subject: UNIX Review is no more
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For the good news, Stan has asked me to share his .sig:

skb@crl.com said:
> Stan Kelly-Bootle, 19 Cottage Ave., Suite #3, Point Richmond, CA
> 94801-3916 vox: 510-236-3107; car[s]: 415-309-8307/415-309-4486; efax:
> 703-997-4052; altfax: 408-295-6840

> skb@crl.com  http://www.crl.com/~skb/ 70323.1560@CompuServe.com

> Contributing Editor: LINUX Journal [starting Feb'2000]; C/C++Users
> Journal [bimonthly: Feb/April/Jun/...] Contributor/JOLT Judge for
> Software Development Magazine

> NOTE: [UNIX Review's] Performance Computing will cease publication
> with the Jan'2000 issue. BUT, calloo-callay, my Devil's Advocate
> column will continue as SODA (Son of Devil's Advocate) on
> www.sarcheck.com boldly sponsored by Aurora Software Inc. Your
> frequent visitations will be recorded in the Lamb's DB of Life. 






From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 13 10:37:12 2000
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From: Benjy Feen <benjy@feen.com>
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To: "'sage-members@usenix.ORG'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Demographics was Re: Usenix board 
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Consider this a total digression:

What do we know about the demographics of:
Usenix
SAGE
Sysadmins as a group?

I'm not trying to make a point -- I'm just honestly curious.  In one shop
I worked in, the M/F ratio was 30:1 among Unix sysadmins and I was the
youngest by about 10 years. The stats are much more balanced in my current
office, and I have to say it makes a huge difference;  the Old-Boy Network
in that last job rivaled that of the Freemasons.  But I want to know --
what are the raw numbers out there?

--
Benjy Feen | benjy@monkeybagel.com | http://www.monkeybagel.com
--



From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 13 11:00:19 2000
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Michael Rogero Brown wrote:
> > ``However, we are confident that
> > our readers' information needs and our advertisers' need to effectively
> > reach the most technically knowledgeable buyers of high-level IT products
> > can be best met by other CMP products such as InformationWeek, Intelligent
> > Enterprise, Sys Admin, Dr. Dobb's Journal, and Network Magazine.''
> >
> 
> Sorry, don't agree.  I get some of those mags and NONE cover the same areas
> as PerfComp & Windows Systems.  These two were aimed at SUPPORT people, not
> IT buyers.  These others just don't aim at those areas.
> 
> Stupid.

You're absolutely right except for the "Stupid" part. Why? Because of
the way the magazines are paid for. Advertisers finance the publication
of these mags, and they want to target the people with the checkbooks.
For the most part, that is NOT the support people. This is a corporate
decision that has to do with money, not with meeting the needs of the
readership. We may think it's stupid, but I'll give odds there's some
financial officer thinking that this is WAY overdue!

Brian
-- 
"Daddy? Do all fairy tales begin with 'Once Upon A Time'?"
"No, some begin with 'If elected I promise'."


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 13 13:42:56 2000
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From: DL Hilton <hilton@entelos.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: Performance Computing (was Unix Review) closing down ... 
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 13:42:09 -0800
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"These two were aimed at SUPPORT people, not IT buyers."

It has always been thus: advertisers will spend money to get in front of
those who make the purchasing decisions, but not those who have to make the
)*#$)*#)%*#% crap work once it's been bought.

Well, some advertisers are going to loose out on this one.  As the IT
Manager here I don't get to pick out all the toys we buy - but, I have
absolute veto power.  If advertisers don't give me a reason to believe in
their product, trained support people to talk to, and straight answers to my
questions - my signature won't hit the P.O.  And, by senior exec agreement -
that, as they say, is that.

Some of you may have had the experience, as I have had, of getting "the
word" from a vendor's tech folks to cool my jets on a recent product
offering and to wait for the next revision.  I'm certain that some salesmen
have lost short term commissions over the years - but some of these
companies have gained a longer term advocate because he had access to, and
got the truth, from the guys and gals in the back room.  If you want an
example of one heroic company in this regard, it's H-P.  On a good day, Dell
comes close.

YMMV

DL


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References: (Your message of Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:22:18 EST.)            
	<31A48D25E618D211820700A0C9B4143DD2C479@luxor.nswc.navy.mil>
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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 13:46:58 -0700
To: Pat Wilson <paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu>,
	"Petersen, Dwight" <dpeters@nswc.navy.mil>
From: Elizabeth Zwicky <zwicky@greatcircle.com>
Subject: Re: Usenix board
Cc: "'sage-members@usenix.ORG'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
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Statistically, SAGE makes up just over 50% of USENIX. Last time I
saw the numbers, SAGE was about 30% female and USENIX was
more like 10% female. Call it 25% overall.

On the one hand, you would therefore expect something like half
SAGE and a quarter women. On the other hand, small samples
often naturally produce large anomalies; if you pick 8-10
people out of 10,000, you are unlikely to get a representative
sample. So the percentages will naturally be off.

USENIX does artificially affect the percentages as well.
There is a tendency to push down the SAGE representation,
(from 50%, not to 0!) because SAGE has its own board.
When it hits 0, however, we tend to try to recruit
SAGE people...

Women tend not to think of running for the board, which
artificially depresses their representation; USENIX
tries to compensate for this effect by searching them
out, but it doesn't always work. None of this is an
exact science, though, and there are a whole lot
of other kinds of balance (commercial vs.
academic, East coast vs. West coast, the US vs.
the rest of the world, people whose companies
are vendors in this space vs. people whose companies
are consumers, UNIX vs. NT, kinds of UNIX and
related operating systems vs. each other, etc.
etc. etc.)

I'm not enthralled with the imbalance, but I'm reluctant
to consider it a Problem as opposed to one of those
weird planetary alignments that happens sometimes.

	Elizabeth




From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 13 14:14:00 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Demographics was Re: Usenix board 
In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 13 Jan 2000 12:37:01 CST.
	<Pine.LNX.4.10.10001131225560.1618-100000@lucien.blight.com> 
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 13:48:59 -0800
From: Lee Ann Goldstein <leeann@rand.org>
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We have an SA staff of 11 including our supervisor. Two of us are
female. Two of the men work with us only half time, and do other
stuff the rest of the time. The two half timers and two of the other
men are junior SAs. I am technical lead & 2nd in command. The other
woman is our Exchange expert; we have one other NT admin on the SA
staff (others are in other groups). Three of us are somewhere between
SAGE levels III and IV, and three between II and III. I and one other
SA are SAGE members.

--Your message was: (from Benjy Feen)
> Consider this a total digression:
> 
> What do we know about the demographics of:
> Usenix
> SAGE
> Sysadmins as a group?
> 
> I'm not trying to make a point -- I'm just honestly curious.  In one shop
> I worked in, the M/F ratio was 30:1 among Unix sysadmins and I was the
> youngest by about 10 years. The stats are much more balanced in my current
> office, and I have to say it makes a huge difference;  the Old-Boy Network
> in that last job rivaled that of the Freemasons.  But I want to know --
> what are the raw numbers out there?

--
Lee Ann Goldstein, Computer Services
RAND Corp., Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
leeann@rand.org


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 13 14:36:59 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
cc: paw@dartmouth.edu, evi@anchor.cs.colorado.edu, ellie@usenix.org
Subject: response to pat wilson's comment on the nomcomm results
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:36:18 -0700
From: Evi Nemeth <evi@anchor.cs.colorado.edu>
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pat - here is the follow up article i posted to your inquiry
on comp.org.usenix.  am forwarding it to this list in case
some dont read news.  i hope it answers some of your concerns.

we tried.

-evi, nomcomm chair


------- Forwarded Message

In article <85igol$bm5$1@merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU>,
Pat Wilson <paw@coos.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>evi@anchor.cs.colorado.edu (Evi Nemeth) writes:
>
>>Report of the Nominating Committee
>
 ...
>
>I find this quite troubling - not one female, and not one sysadmin
>(over half of Usenix members are also SAGE members).  Could no
>one be found?
>
>
>--
>Pat Wilson
>paw.nospam@dartmouth.edu


we tried very hard to find both sage folks and women.

in the case of sage, we did not want to raid the current sage
leadership because the next two years are critical to the
sage/usenix relationship as sage moves toward a membership
organization and explores becoming more independent of usenix.
to take the current sage leaders seemed irresponsible.  we
contacted several others, but they declined to run.  marcus
ranum we thought of as half in the sysadmin community and half
in the security community.  we did work with the sage leadership
for suggestions and for gathering data on sage concerns to
feedback to the current board.

on the women front we also worked very hard and found four strong
women candidates that for various reasons (overcommitted, 
babies, job pressure, tenure, etc.) could not do it this time.
two of the four promised for next time, when their current pressing
concerns are hopefully over.  not sure if they were arm twistable,
we tried pretty hard.

a big issue in choosing a board candidate is to find someone
who has the time to be a good board member.  we need a board
of eight active members.

- -evi, nomcomm chair

------- End of Forwarded Message



From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 13 15:41:08 2000
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From: Greg Rose <ggr@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: Usenix board
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	Elizabeth Zwicky <zwicky@greatcircle.com>
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In the (surprisingly little) discussion so far, I haven't seen anyone 
really point out that nominations are not yet closed. The Nominating 
Committee is charged with coming up with enough good candidates that the 
organisation won't be hobbled into the future... they don't have to go 
further and identify *all* candidates.

Personally, I'm very concerned that there aren't "SAGE people" on the 
current slate. There is a lot of turnover for this election; 5 of the 8 
incumbents are not running again, and 4 of those were founding SAGE members 
(Elizabeth Zwicky, Pat Parseghian, Hal Pomeranz, and me). None of the 3 
incumbents left (4 if you count Kirk McKusick returning) have SAGE as as a 
primary focus. I agree with Evi's posting [1] in comp.org.usenix that 
Markus Ranum comes close, but SAGE is a community more than a skill set, 
and I see Markus as primarily a developer and entrepreneur. (Note: in case 
anyone misinterprets that comment, I have every intention of voting for 
Markus anyway... I just think SAGE needs more advocacy than that.)

Now I don't want to start everyone running for nomination forms. Being on 
the USENIX board is quite a lot of effort, and can be time consuming, and 
potential candidates [2] need to understand what they might be getting 
themselves into. If anyone feels that they want to step forward, I would 
recommend that they speak to me, or Elizabeth, or Evi Nemeth, or indeed any 
current or past board member. If we fail to dissuade them, getting a few 
signatures on a nomination form is not difficult. Some would say "not 
difficult enough", which is why I want to stress that candidates need to be 
serious.

Greg. (lame-duck-vice-president of USENIX)

Notes:
[1] Evi wrote in comp.org.usenix, Message-ID: <387d1935@cs.colorado.edu>:
 >marcus ranum we thought of as half in the sysadmin community and half
 >in the security community.

[2] I originally typo'd "condidates" at this point, and the spell checker 
suggested "condiments". I thought it made a certain kind of sense... which 
I guess is why I'm not running again :-)

Greg Rose                                     INTERNET: ggr@Qualcomm.com
Qualcomm Australia        VOICE:  +61-2-9181-4851   FAX: +61-2-9181-5470
Suite 410, Birkenhead Point,             http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/
Drummoyne NSW 2047    232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F  E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 13 16:57:31 2000
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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:59:10 -0800
From: Strata Rose Chalup <strata@virtual.net>
Organization: VirtualNet
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It's interesting seeing the responses, but the Levins did say:

> [...] Please reply
>directly to me and I'll collate and post the results when I have a good
>number of responses (hopefully a week or so).

Someone from my company has already responded, so I'll keep mum.  :-)
I look forward to seeing the collated results, kudos to you for
doing the survey!

Cheers,
_Strata
-- 
========================================================================
Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ]                      strata@virtual.net
VirtualNet Consulting                            http://www.virtual.net/
SAGE Level III/IV Unix Admin, commercial-scale Internet services
specialist
=========================================================================


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 13 17:18:07 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: importance of computer support people
From: Tom Reingold <tommy@bell-labs.com>
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In-Reply-To: Message from DL Hilton <hilton@entelos.com> 
	of Thu, 13 Jan 2000 13:42:09 PST
	<EF82627BE583D211B3B900A0C9EBCAD34BF50E@hippocrates.entelos.com> 
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On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 13:42:09 PST,
	DL Hilton <hilton@entelos.com> wrote:

> "These two were aimed at SUPPORT people, not IT buyers."
> 
> It has always been thus: advertisers will spend money to get in front of
> those who make the purchasing decisions, but not those who have to make the
> )*#$)*#)%*#% crap work once it's been bought.
> [...]

Don't fret.  We're getting more important, as reflected in this NY
Times article and this cartoon.  Never mind that the article
describes lower level support people than the typical people on this
list.  The point is the same.

By the way, this article was on the front page of the Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/00/01/biztech/articles/05help.html

http://www.peterzale.com/helen/504.html


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 13 20:53:09 2000
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From: Jim Duncan <jnduncan@cisco.com>
To: Pat Wilson <paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
Cc: "Petersen, Dwight" <dpeters@nswc.navy.mil>,
	"'sage-members@usenix.ORG'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Usenix board 
In-Reply-To: Message from Pat Wilson <paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu> of "Thu,
	13 Jan 2000 10:54:51 GMT." <200001131554.KAA409428@rigel.dartmouth.edu>
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Pat Wilson writes:
> Evi says that the NomCom wasn't able to talk any of the women it
> asked into running, but they certainly didn't ask _everyone_.

Apologies if this was already covered and I missed it, but it might be 
worthwhile to point out that folks can nominate themselves, assuming, of 
course, that they meet all the requirements.

I won't go into the criteria because I'll probably get it wrong. :-)  But 
I'm sure it's on a web page somewhere or somebody from the home office can 
repost some mail about the requirements for a non-nominating committee 
nomination.

	Jim


-- 
Jim Duncan, Product Security Incident Manager, Cisco Systems, Inc.
<http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/707/sec_incident_response.shtml>
E-mail: <jnduncan@cisco.com>  Phone(Direct/FAX): +1 919 392 6209




From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 14 06:17:55 2000
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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:15:59 -0500
To: Elizabeth Zwicky <zwicky@greatcircle.com>
From: "Richard C. Dempsey" <dempsey@Kodak.COM>
Subject: Re: Usenix board
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This would make sense if the USENIX board were randomly sampled from
the entire USENIX membership.  I trust NomComm not to pick names from
a very large hat, nor to use some other thought-less mechanism.  By
all accounts, a great deal of thought went into choosing board nominees
from an apparently rather recalcitrant crowd.

This is not a random (neither planetary nor statistical) alignment.
This is a lot of people failing to understand the benefits, to themselves,
to their companies, or to SAGE, of being on the USENIX board.

Why did you do it, Elizabeth, Greg?  Why did you sit on the USENIX board?
What do you think made a difference?  How much work and how much travel
were involved?

Rich

At 01:46 PM 1/13/00 -0700, Elizabeth Zwicky wrote:
>
>Statistically, SAGE makes up just over 50% of USENIX. Last time I
>saw the numbers, SAGE was about 30% female and USENIX was
>more like 10% female. Call it 25% overall.
>
>On the one hand, you would therefore expect something like half
>SAGE and a quarter women. On the other hand, small samples
>often naturally produce large anomalies; if you pick 8-10
>people out of 10,000, you are unlikely to get a representative
>sample. So the percentages will naturally be off.
> [...]
>I'm not enthralled with the imbalance, but I'm reluctant
>to consider it a Problem as opposed to one of those
>weird planetary alignments that happens sometimes.


Richard C. Dempsey                 email: dempsey@kodak.com
Public Online Services             pager: 716-975-3539
11th Floor, Bldg 83, RL            phone: 716-477-3457
Eastman Kodak Company              fax:   716-722-3885
Rochester, NY 14650-2203


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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:43:47 -0500
From: Diane Calleson <calleson@virginia.edu>
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I am also interested in the raw numbers /stats on
Women as System Admins....  I wonder about the validity
of the results of our surveys which is a small sample or all 
Sys-Admins.  Unfortunately, the federal government statistics don't
keep track of the profession of Systems Admininstation seperately from
the IT profession as a whole.   Is anyone aware of other IT surveys that
we might use to compare to our own?  We might get a better idea about
wether the SAGE membership has a representative sampling of the total
number of women in the profession.

Diane CAlleson
calleson@virginia.edu

UVA Electrical Engineering


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On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 11:32:27 EST Michael Rogero Brown 
<brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com> wrote:

> Sorry, don't agree.  I get some of those mags and NONE cover the same areas
> as PerfComp & Windows Systems.  These two were aimed at SUPPORT people, not
> IT buyers.  These others just don't aim at those areas.

Yes, but there are too many IT buyers and too few support people, and 
the moto always is "follow the money"
------------------------------------
Yiorgos Adamopoulos <adamo@ieee.org>




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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:29:01 -0700 (MST)
From: LuftHans <LuftHans@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Women Sys Admins
In-reply-to: <387F6053.E9C8D1D@virginia.edu>
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On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, Diane Calleson wrote:

> 
> I am also interested in the raw numbers /stats on
> Women as System Admins....  I wonder about the validity

When I first joined the group I just left 3 years ago we had 9 sys_adm, only
one in the group is female. When I left we had 12 in the group and 3 are
women. 2 just recently started and were learning sys_adm. The woman who's been
there the whole time is the workhorse of our group. She's the only one who
consistently got projects done on time. She also handled the largest backend
projects.

I think the real factor however is that she's also the oldest person in the
group and has the most sys_adm experience (emphasis really on the most
experience, but her age also lets her cut through some of the obstacles us
younger sys_adms would get bogged down in). Others are much more technically
qualified than her, but aren't near as good at punching projects out in
relatively good terms. 

4 of the 12 have been doing engineering or sys_adm at the company for more
than 15 years. One probably has 10 to 15 years engineering experience, the
rest of us have been earning our living in computers for less than 10 years,
most less than 5.

ciao,

der.hans

BTW, that was an engineering organization, e.g. no computers for business
majors in the group. If we didn't have an engineering background going in, we
do going out :).

> of the results of our surveys which is a small sample or all 
> Sys-Admins.  Unfortunately, the federal government statistics don't
> keep track of the profession of Systems Admininstation seperately from
> the IT profession as a whole.   Is anyone aware of other IT surveys that
> we might use to compare to our own?  We might get a better idea about
> wether the SAGE membership has a representative sampling of the total
> number of women in the profession.
> 
> Diane CAlleson
> calleson@virginia.edu
> 
> UVA Electrical Engineering
> 

# +++++++++++=================================+++++++++++ #
#                   LuftHans@asu.edu                      #
#            http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/              #
#           Practice socially conscious hedonism,         #
#        do whatever you want as long as it doesn't       #
#              hurt anyone else. - der.hans               #
# ===========+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=========== #



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From: Michael Rogero Brown <brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com>
Message-Id: <200001142027.PAA02831@plhp049.comm.mot.com>
Subject: Re: Women Sys Admins
To: calleson@virginia.edu (Diane Calleson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:27:34 EST
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> 
> 
> I am also interested in the raw numbers /stats on
> Women as System Admins....  I wonder about the validity
> of the results of our surveys which is a small sample or all 
> Sys-Admins.  Unfortunately, the federal government statistics don't
> keep track of the profession of Systems Admininstation seperately from
> the IT profession as a whole.   Is anyone aware of other IT surveys that
> we might use to compare to our own?  We might get a better idea about
> wether the SAGE membership has a representative sampling of the total
> number of women in the profession.
> 

The only good sysadmin surveys that I am aware of are the ones done by Sage
and SANS.  Most "IT" surveys out there don't seem to do a good job of breaking
out "sysadmins" from positions other support personnel like help desk, pc
techs and the like.

--
Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.  
Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.


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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 08:00:41 +1100
To: "Richard C. Dempsey" <dempsey@Kodak.COM>
From: Greg Rose <ggr@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: Usenix board
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At 09:15 14/01/2000 -0500, Richard C. Dempsey wrote:
 >Why did you do it, Elizabeth, Greg?  Why did you sit on the USENIX board?
 >What do you think made a difference?  How much work and how much travel
 >were involved?

I'll answer the factual bits first. I live in Australia (and for some part 
of her tenure Elizabeth lived in Switzerand), so just travelling to four 
board meetings per year, and attending a couple of conferences (which I 
would probably have done anyway) is a significant load. The board meetings 
are pretty efficiently done, but in any case are a very full day or two of 
work. But that's just the beginning. There are subcommittees, for awards, 
scholarships, research projects. There are liaison roles, to SAGE, to 
conference chairs, to other organisations. There are new innovations to be 
researched or prototyped. Program committees. It's hard to quantify just 
how much time gets spent on these things, because activity tends to be 
bursty, and each board member takes on different tasks according to their 
interests. I'd be working on the next Security Symposium anyway, whether or 
not I was on the board. (Indeed, I'll be off the board when it is run.) 
Being on the board really just implies more of an obligation to get the job 
(whatever it is) done, rather than contributing around the edges. Averaged 
over everything, I'd guess about 1/2 day per week for me. More for some, 
less for others.

So that was a pretty wiffly-waffly answer to the factual bits.

My involvement with USENIX and SAGE (and AUUG, and SAGE-AU) has been 
immensely rewarding to me. Some of my best friends were met doing these 
things, career opportunities opened up, skills developed. Once I learned 
that everything I put into the community came back with interest paid, I 
never looked back. Do get involved in something, you won't regret it.

There are plenty of opportunities without actually joining the USENIX 
board. If you have specific areas of interest to you, you can also find out 
if there is a project along those lines. To get up-to-date information 
about such things, it's probably best to contact Barb Dijker, Madame Prez, 
<barb@sage.org>. Hal Miller <hal@sage.org>, the past president, is (I 
think) coordinating all things educational. It's been pointed out to me 
that some Web content about the various projects is sadly lacking...

While I'm retiring from the USENIX board, it is because of burnout, too 
long on one thing. I'm contributing instead to other organisations, open 
source software, my family, ... . I hope that my continued dedication to 
USENIX shows through; I'm proud of what I've contributed to, and what 
USENIX and SAGE are achieving.

I guess I should get off the soapbox now.

regards,
Greg.

Greg Rose                                     INTERNET: ggr@Qualcomm.com
Qualcomm Australia        VOICE:  +61-2-9181-4851   FAX: +61-2-9181-5470
Suite 410, Birkenhead Point,             http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/
Drummoyne NSW 2047    232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F  E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C


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	Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:23:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Rogero Brown <brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com>
Message-Id: <200001142123.QAA27498@plhp049.comm.mot.com>
Subject: Re: importance of computer support people
To: tommy@bell-labs.com (Tom Reingold)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:23:43 EST
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <200001140117.UAA06004@aura.research.bell-labs.com>;
	from "Tom Reingold" at Jan 13, 100 8:17 pm
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> 
> 
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 13:42:09 PST,
> 	DL Hilton <hilton@entelos.com> wrote:
> 
> > "These two were aimed at SUPPORT people, not IT buyers."
> > 
> > It has always been thus: advertisers will spend money to get in front of
> > those who make the purchasing decisions, but not those who have to make the
> > )*#$)*#)%*#% crap work once it's been bought.
> > [...]
> 
> Don't fret.  We're getting more important, as reflected in this NY
> Times article and this cartoon.  Never mind that the article
> describes lower level support people than the typical people on this
> list.  The point is the same.
> 
> By the way, this article was on the front page of the Times.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/00/01/biztech/articles/05help.html
>

Interesting.  The article repeated implied that people at many companies
try to be good to their help desk people in part so they will get good 
service.  Most of the places I have been familiar with, most people seem to
treat the h-d people like dirt and yet expect excellent service despite the
poor way they treat them.  I have yet to figure out whether its the corporate
culture(s) or if some people have been raised to be rude...
 
> http://www.peterzale.com/helen/504.html
> 

Ah, Helen...

--
Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.  
Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.


From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 14 14:05:47 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Women Sys Admins 
In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:43:47 EST.
	<387F6053.E9C8D1D@virginia.edu> 
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:05:35 -0800
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Diane Calleson <calleson@virginia.edu> writes:


 % I am also interested in the raw numbers /stats on
 % Women as System Admins....  I wonder about the validity
 % of the results of our surveys which is a small sample or all 
 % Sys-Admins.  Unfortunately, the federal government statistics don't
 % keep track of the profession of Systems Admininstation seperately from
 % the IT profession as a whole.   Is anyone aware of other IT surveys that
 % we might use to compare to our own?  We might get a better idea about
 % wether the SAGE membership has a representative sampling of the total
 % number of women in the profession.


 Hello, 

 I am interested in the process of how people become system administrators.

 I teach Unix system administration at Oregon State University. And
 I have been facilitating the Sysadm-education workshop and mailing list.

 I have taught Unix System administration at OSU for almost 15 years,
 off and on.


 I usually see one or two women in the class. Almost always, that one
 female will drop the class. I have had only a very few push all the way
 thru. I see the ratios being something like 15:1 Male:Female.

 This term, I had 3 women in the class. By some circumstance,
 they all made it thru the class together.

 Since this was an unusual event in my class, I took them out
 to lunch along with a staff person from the college of Engineering
 who looks after womens issues for the college.

 I asked them what made it possible for them to succeed in the class.

 For them, the biggest thing was having a group of women to work 
 with.

 There were several other interesting things that they presented, that
 I am working back into my class.

 However, it is clear that with CS enrollment of women being down
 about 2% right now, that getting lots of women in the profession
 via a CS route is unlikely.


 There is a hypthosys by one of the profs that the number of women
 in the program is inversely proportional to the computer deployment
 in highschools.

 When I started at OSU, 16 years ago, the percentage of women was
 closer to 15%. Now it is down about 2%.

 It will be hard to intentionally create CS trained system admins
 if the numbers remain the same.

 What changes have to happen, so that the number of CS people
 are 50% women. In Italy, they are much closer to 50/50.

 So why is the US 98/2?

 And what had to change to make that different?



 



-----
John Sechrest          .         Helping people use
CEO PEAK -              .           computers and the Internet
Public Electronic         .            more effectively
Access to Knowledge,Inc       .                      
1600 SW Western, Suite 180       .            Internet: sechrest@peak.org
Corvallis Oregon 97333               .                  (541) 754-7325
                                            . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest


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To: John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org>
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Subject: Re: Women Sys Admins
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Hi, 

I am a female sysadmin. I used to be an elementary school teacher-- one
day I decided that I was going to change careers and do something where
I could make a decent living 
and have the opportunity to be presented with new challenges and to
constantly be involved with learning. I had several friends that were
UNIX sysadmins who recommended that I go back to school and learn UNIX--
I did and then my friends apprenticed me and taught me the trade-- I
started out as a contractor and spent most of my free time trying to
catch up on all I had to learn. Now I am a lead admin for a start-up. I
have only met three other females, only one of whom I worked with (see
below). I have come across many female engineers but never had the
opportunity to work with them. The biggest help to my career was having
mentors who were willing to take me under their wing and made sure that
I learned what I needed to know.



>  I usually see one or two women in the class. Almost always, that one
>  female will drop the class. I have had only a very few push all the way
>  thru. I see the ratios being something like 15:1 Male:Female.

The one female I did get the chance to work with just couldn't hack some
of the crap the guys would dish out.-- I've noticed that some of the
older guys seem to be card carrying members of the "I hate women" club
(I've never experience any problems with men close to my age range
25-35). This one grumpy guy would go on about what a sad day it would be
when a girl with a backpack could swap out a fcal adapter like it was
nothing and other rants about how women can't hack the stress of system
administration, how women are probably too weak to work on machines that
are bigger than an Ultra 2 ,etc , etc I've found that you have to just
ignore this sort of stuff -- some people are just from a different
generation and aren't as accepting of new things.

 This term, I had 3 women in the class. By some circumstance,
>  they all made it thru the class together.
> 
>  Since this was an unusual event in my class, I took them out
>  to lunch along with a staff person from the college of Engineering
>  who looks after womens issues for the college.
> 
>  I asked them what made it possible for them to succeed in the class.
> 
>  For them, the biggest thing was having a group of women to work
>  with.

I really haven't had the chance to work with a lot of women in this
field but , for the most part, I've met alot of really nice people who I
enjoy working with.



>  What changes have to happen, so that the number of CS people
>  are 50% women. In Italy, they are much closer to 50/50.
> 
>  So why is the US 98/2?
> 
>  And what had to change to make that different?
> 
> 

I have no idea. I can tell you that when I was in high school that my
guidance counselors in school never pointed out that the school offered
computer classes and I never knew anything further than word processing
stuff-- they did put me in foods and home economics though!

...mla...
> 
> -----
> John Sechrest          .         Helping people use
> CEO PEAK -              .           computers and the Internet
> Public Electronic         .            more effectively
> Access to Knowledge,Inc       .
> 1600 SW Western, Suite 180       .            Internet: sechrest@peak.org
> Corvallis Oregon 97333               .                  (541) 754-7325
>                                             . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest

-- Melinda  :o)
"Jumping from 18-wheelers can be a health hazard, safety experts warn."
-The Wall Street Journal


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan 15 08:18:23 2000
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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 09:17:08 -0700 (MST)
From: "Barbara L. Dijker" <Barb.Dijker@labyrinth.com>
Message-Id: <200001151617.JAA29906@labyrinth.com>
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It makes sense that there are no sysadmins on the USENIX nominations
list... because the SAGE exec is elected by those USENIX members
who are SAGE members, and it is already supposed to be acting on
behalf of SAGE members of USENIX.

The USENIX board is supposed to delegate matters of SAGE to the
SAGE exec rather than dealing with them directly.  If you look at
the total organization governance as the combination of those
bodies, it is about 50/50 representation.  SAGE opted for an odd
number on their exec so it is one fewer.  There are currently two
women on the SAGE exec, and in the past about half have been women.

...Barb
SAGE pres
barb@sage.org


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan 15 09:39:15 2000
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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 10:37:01 -0700 (MST)
From: "Barbara L. Dijker" <Barb.Dijker@labyrinth.com>
Message-Id: <200001151737.KAA00468@labyrinth.com>
To: calleson@virginia.edu
Subject: Re: Women Sys Admins
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To our (SAGE exec) knowledge, there are not any studies which define
the scope and size of the sysadmin profession.  That lack is becoming
a problem.  In the past it hasn't mattered much if SAGE surveys
like the salary profile are representative of all sysadmins.  If
they are representative of SAGE members, we can assume the rest.
We're lucky to get what we get.  For things like certification it
is an obvious lack.

If we make the basic assumptions that USENIX membership is a
statistically valid representation of computing professionals in
general and that SAGE is a statistically valid representation of
system administrators... we know that there are more women in system
administration than computing in general.  Roughly 2x.  Such
assumptions are as reasonable as assuming Seventh Day Adventists
are a statistically valid representation of vegetarians (which is
how all research on vegetarianism is done) even though no one knows
how many vegetarians there are.  It's a defined collection of
self-identified individuals.

There is little significant difference between SAGE and SANS survey
figures... except that which can be explained by the known differences
in our respective populations.  For example, we know security folks
get more money and SANS focuses more on security than SAGE does.
The similarities support assumptions of sample validity.

Colltech has done some theoretical calculations on how many sysadmins
there _should_ be.  They use the number of computers manufactured
annually and the average number of systems SAGE members say they
manage.  The big unknowns there are how many new computers are
replacements vs. additions in the field and how many are residential
vs.  commercial.

An IT jobs study was conducted in 1998, but they didn't adequately
separate out system administrators.
http://www.itaa.org/workforce/studies/hw98.htm

There are two problems in really getting this information:
1) someone has to do the study
2) how do we identify system administrators in such a study

The first problem should be fairly easy.  We (SAGE) are looking
for folks with contacts at places such as Anderson, Gartner Group
or other such market research firms.  We may not be able to entirely
fund such a study.  But we can hopefully convince someone that such
a study would be beneficial (maybe even profitable) to conduct.

The second problem is harder.  This is the problem of job title.
SAGE has published the jobs description booklet, but it doesn't
appear to have had much effect on the myriad of titles assigned to
system administrators.  That leaves self-identification.  If anyone
has suggestions in this area, I'd love to hear them.  Maybe if we
all try to convince and help HR to change our job titles.  When
the HR community thinks we exist, then we exist.

...Barb


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan 15 19:55:19 2000
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To: "Barbara L. Dijker" <Barb.Dijker@labyrinth.com>
cc: calleson@virginia.edu, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: SAGE Job Descriptions (was Re: Women Sys Admins )
In-reply-to: <200001151737.KAA00468@labyrinth.com> 
References: <200001151737.KAA00468@labyrinth.com>
Comments: In-reply-to "Barbara L. Dijker" <Barb.Dijker@labyrinth.com>
	message dated "Sat, 15 Jan 2000 12:37:01 -0500."
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 22:55:05 -0500
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Barbara L Dijker <Barb.Dijker@labyrinth.com> writes:

> The second problem is harder.  This is the problem of job title.
> SAGE has published the jobs description booklet, but it doesn't
> appear to have had much effect on the myriad of titles assigned to
> system administrators.

I've got a rather nice datapoint for this part of the discussion.  The
contract I currently work on had wildly out-dated job and skill level
descriptions until a few months ago.  Using the SAGE Job Descriptions
as a template my task leader at the time was able to write new
job/skill descriptions that well-matched are actual jobs and properly
described our skill sets. We even used the skill level names so now
I'm an SA-Advanced instead of a Technical Expert 4.

The government liked the new descriptions well enough to ask all tasks 
on the contract to re-write their job/skill descriptions similarly.

Definitely an instance when SAGE had postive influence!

--[Lance]
    NIEHS ITSS Contract, SysAdmin Task


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan 15 21:47:45 2000
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From: Jeff Tyler <jeff@jthome.com>
Message-Id: <200001160547.XAA39033@jthome.jthome.com>
Subject: Was: Re: Women Sys Admins Now: SAGE JDs
To: Barb.Dijker@labyrinth.com (Barbara L. Dijker)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:47:24 -0600 (CST)
Cc: calleson@virginia.edu, sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <200001151737.KAA00468@labyrinth.com> from "Barbara L. Dijker" at
	Jan 15, 2000 10:37:01 AM
Organization: Collective Technologies
Phone: (512)-263-5500
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"Barbara L. Dijker says:"
> 
[snip]
> 
> The second problem is harder.  This is the problem of job title.
> SAGE has published the jobs description booklet, but it doesn't
> appear to have had much effect on the myriad of titles assigned to
> system administrators.  That leaves self-identification.  If anyone
> has suggestions in this area, I'd love to hear them.  Maybe if we
> all try to convince and help HR to change our job titles.  When
> the HR community thinks we exist, then we exist.
> 
> ...Barb

Here's another data point on job titles.  Collective Technologies
uses the SAGE jobs descriptions in house for all technical folks.
We use them as an aid to classification in our hiring process, we
use them in development plans and we use the language in the
"profiles" of our consultants that we present to our clients.
We've helped develop companion descriptions for NT folks (I believe
submitted to SAGE a while back) and are working on a DBA set of
descriptions as we're now moving into the DBA space as well.  So
there's a ~500 person company that you can cite when trying to
convince HR to adopt them.

I also personally presented the SAGE jobs descriptions to the IAC
(a DOJ chaired Interagency task force) in late 98/early 99 as a
useful tool that the Feds should adopt.  Not sure what happened to
that effort as I got busy and lost the thread ;-)  They were supposed
to contact SAGE as part of the hand off I did with them.

I'd strongly urge all to do exactly what Barb suggest, get your HR
organization to adopt the SAGE JDs as a standard.  We work with
hundreds of companies every year and it never ceases to amaze me
how poorly the SA space is understood by HR depts.

JT


-- 
=========================================================================
|Jeffrey S. Tyler                        Office  512-263-0770 ext 267   |      
|Chief Information Officer               Mobile  512-699-8225           | 
|Collective Technologies    www.colltech.com     jtyler@colltech.com    |
=========================================================================



From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 17 07:13:19 2000
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From: "Mark Boltz" <mark.boltz@transnexus.com>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Classrooms (was RE: Women Sys Admins)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:12:19 -0500
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Hi,

> I am interested in the process of how people become
> system administrators.

That would be an interesting study. Hmmm, maybe something to do in my
"spare" time. :) It seems to me, from the people I know, and myself, that
most learn system administration much like the medieval process of
apprenticeship. They start of learning the basics of Unix, find a mentor or
two, and effectively become the apprentice to the "master". After a couple
of years maybe, they reach journeyman status and go out into the field on
their own, but still having mentors for more advanced topics.

> I usually see one or two women in the class. Almost
> always, that one female will drop the class. I have

While I was at Penn State, I taught a course in System Administration as
well (introductory to MSIS students). But my ratio was more like 55% men to
45% women. One semester two of the females were the best in the class in
terms of scores. I find the difference vs. your experiences to be
interesting. Although mine were from the 98-99 academic year, and I only
taught for two years, so I don't have as strong a sample as your years of
experience.

----------
Mark Boltz
Sr. System Administrator
TransNexus, LLC
http://www.transnexus.com/



From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 17 11:51:20 2000
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Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:50:52 -0800
From: Hal Pomeranz <hal@deer-run.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: International Domain Registrations?
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My current client would like to register their company name in
several different international domains.  Does anybody have 
recommendations for services that will handle the domain registrations
for international TLDs?

Replies to me and I'll summarize to the list.  Thanks in advance.

Hal Pomeranz
Deer Run Associates



From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 17 14:17:14 2000
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From: Benjy Feen <benjy@feen.com>
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Documentation systems?
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The problem: 
My organization, Monkeybagel Meme Foundry, has homegrown docs
covering hardware, software, procedures, policies, drink recipes,
whatever.  These docs are widely distributed across many storage
media: webpages, personal stashes in homedirs and email folders, paper
docs, people's heads, white boards, etc.

The solution:
Make it easy for everyone to author and use documentation.  


I'm looking for a documentation system that allows at least the following
capabilities:

1. Author/import documentation with great ease.
2. Store it intelligently.  It would be REALLY nice to allow binary
attachments, though I fear that would invite things like "Here's the docs
on our backup system. They're in Bank Street Writer format with
LOGO-encoded architectural schematics" <<ATTACHMENT>>
3. Find it when you need it, either via browsing or searching, on the web
4. Display it in some nice way by default.  Offer multiple versions of
   documents if applicable (i.e. revision control)
5. Export it to your favorite format (HTML, POD, PDF?)
6. Update it easily (again, revision control).  User should get to choose
   their own editor.
7. Mark old docs obsolescent and suppress them from showing up unless
   specifically requested.
8. Anything I've forgotten.

Does ANYTHING like this already exist?  Are commercial systems worth
considering? Would anyone like to write this software? Please?

--
Benjy Feen | benjy@monkeybagel.com | http://www.monkeybagel.com
--



From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 18 04:15:22 2000
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To: "Duregon, Marino" <Marino_Duregon@mentorg.com>
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Subject: Re: Performance Computing (was Unix Review) closing down ... 
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	Message Apparently From "Duregon, Marino" <Marino_Duregon@mentorg.com> 
	Dated Wed, 12 Jan 2000 13:27:42 PST.
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 04:16:09 -0800
From: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>
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> Hello all,
 
> just got in the mail my January 2000 issue of Performance Computing 
> (formerly known as Unix Review) and read with disbelief that 
> "For a variety of business reasons, Miller Freeman has decided to
> discontinue the publication of this magazine. Thus, with this issue
> we bid you, our faithful reader, farewell, and extend to you our
> gratitude for the support and additional insight that you have
> provided to us over these many years."
 
> Pretty sad. After the printed version of Byte (a new, online version,
> is available at byte.com ) here's another staple of computing history
> that is closing down. I wonder if they are consolidating operations and
> folding into the 'SysAdmin' magazine.
 
> What do you guys think ?
> Marino

	I think it's long overdue.  I do hope that
	it breathes new life into sysadmin magazine --- but
	I won't hold my breath.

--
Jim Dennis                                             jdennis@linuxcare.com
Linuxcare: Linux Corporate Support Team:            http://www.linuxcare.com


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 18 05:25:03 2000
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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:24:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: brief email survey
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I just wanted to send a note saying that I haven't received any more
responses in the last couple of days, so I'm now working on compiling the
results, and I'll post them hopefully by the end of the week.  Overall we
had 48 replies, which isn't too bad.

Thank you again for taking the time to respond.

-Adam

Rutherford, NJ USA  Free speech online! _/ "Do not meddle in the affairs
http://westnet.com/~levins/    ________/   of wizards, especially simian 
<*> __________________________/     ones. They are not all that subtle."
-O /



From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 18 08:21:46 2000
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I was also able to get my job title changed using the Job Description
booklet as a guide. At the time I thought I would be looking for a job
in the near future and my old title did not describe what I did at all.
The discussions with my supervisors at the time also opened their eyes
to the breadth of my responsibilities.

> SAGE has published the jobs description booklet, but it doesn't
> appear to have had much effect on the myriad of titles assigned to
> system administrators.  That leaves self-identification.  If anyone
> has suggestions in this area, I'd love to hear them.  Maybe if we
> all try to convince and help HR to change our job titles.  When
> the HR community thinks we exist, then we exist.


-- 
Patrick Landry                                   pml@cacs.usl.edu
The Center for Advanced Computer Studies at
The University of Louisiana at Lafayette
     (formerly The University of Southwestern Louisiana)



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Don't care to speak to CS in general.  However, I just recruited a 20 year
old CS major to intern with us here.  I was successful largely because she
knew me from a martial arts class.  Because she knew me, and because she had
spent the last semester interning at a large company that had her putting
here CS training to good use with a partially functional paper punch, she
accepted my assurance that I would see to it that she got some hands on
training if she came with us.  So for SysAdmins, I
would say that the place to find women for sysadmin positions is amongst
women you know.  As long as the guidance counselors are
stuck on Home Ec classes you just have to root around and find women that
have some problem solving ability, and train them.



>>  What changes have to happen, so that the number of CS people
>>  are 50% women. In Italy, they are much closer to 50/50.
>>  So why is the US 98/2?
>>  And what had to change to make that different?
 

>I have no idea. I can tell you that when I was in high school >that my
guidance counselors in school never pointed out that >the school offered
computer classes and I never knew anything >further than word processing
stuff-- they did put me in foods >and home economics though!

>...mla...
>> -----
>> John Sechrest          .         Helping people use

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<TITLE>RE: sage-members-digest V2 #245</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Don't care to speak to CS in general.&nbsp; However, =
I just recruited a 20 year old CS major to intern with us here.&nbsp; I =
was successful largely because she knew me from a martial arts =
class.&nbsp; Because she knew me, and because she had spent the last =
semester interning at a large company that had her putting here CS =
training to good use with a partially functional paper punch, she =
accepted my assurance that I would see to it that she got some hands on =
training if she came with us.&nbsp; So for SysAdmins, I</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>would say that the place to find women for sysadmin =
positions is amongst women you know.&nbsp; As long as the guidance =
counselors are</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>stuck on Home Ec classes you just have to root around =
and find women that have some problem solving ability, and train =
them.</FONT></P>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; What changes have to happen, so that =
the number of CS people</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; are 50% women. In Italy, they are =
much closer to 50/50.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; So why is the US 98/2?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; And what had to change to make that =
different?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;I have no idea. I can tell you that when I was in =
high school &gt;that my guidance counselors in school never pointed out =
that &gt;the school offered computer classes and I never knew anything =
&gt;further than word processing stuff-- they did put me in foods =
&gt;and home economics though!</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;...mla...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&gt; -----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&gt; John =
Sechrest&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
..&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Helping people =
use</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 18 12:15:50 2000
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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:15:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Nadine Miller <nmiller@cisco.com>
To: Diane Calleson <calleson@virginia.edu>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Women Sys Admins (a jaunt into the non-technical)
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Numbers from our engineering support group inside
of IT at Cisco:

2 female college interns in the first-line phone pool
2 female process analysts in the first-line phone pool
3 female desktop support technicians
  (I include them b/c we require jr. sysadmin knowledge
   for the jobs)

6 female sysadmins (one senior, one high intermediate, three 
  low intermediate--all but the senior are home grown; the sixth
  is intermed. sysadmin material, but a senior tools person.  note
  that all of these are UNIX folk, we do not have any female PC
  sysadmins)
1 female project coordinator who qualifies as a jr. sysadmin
  (also partially home grown)

We have 3 other female managers and several other women who are 
more oriented towards operations/logistics, so they have some tech 
background, but are more business oriented.

Our total number of direct reports in the department is ~300.  This 
does not include our external contracting firm for PC purchases--they 
have a fairly large number of women in their organization.  Nor does
it include the financial folks which work for our department, but 
report to a different chain.

My personal take on the situation (caveat: highly colored by my own
understanding of personality psychology :-).  Also, these are generalities.
Reality dictates that every individual is different.  Generalities
cannot be applied, therefore, to individuals.  :-)

Women make good high-level sys admin/network admin kind of folks 'cause
*generally*, women are better at pattern matching and big-picture kind
of thinking.  They may be less interested, as a result, in the "drill-
down" focus-on-one-thing-til-you-drop approach that is sometimes necessary
at the beginning of your career when you are trying to learn intricate
systems.  This hurdle may cause some of them to decide that sys admin'ing
is not for them.

On the "personal approach" part of the equation, it's been my experience
that a great number of the women I know in the sys admin field (and
other tech fields) tend not to fit the societally understood definition 
of "womanly" behavior.  Examples: most of them tend to have more male 
friends than female friends; most are more concerned with practical 
good looks than feminine fashion; most tend to be more forthright in their 
speech and approach to others, etc.  Some might define these as "masculine" 
characteristics, but I refuse to do so because that has too much baggage. 
:-)

It's also been my experience here at HQ, and with the male sys admins I 
know in the field, that they are very open to women sys admins--I have 
heard very little "males are better" commentary from our group other 
than in jest.  In the latter, we give as good as we get. :-)

I think it would be interesting for SAGE to do a Myers-Briggs workshop
at LISA--I certainly would be interested to see the distribution of 
personality types in our field.  This could perhaps be rolled into a 
"success factors" study for giving guidance to those seeking systems
administration as a career choice (as an extension to the certification/
education work).  (Sounds like there's a thesis for someone doing
psych/career research.)

=Nadine=

--
N. Nadine Miller
ECS Sys Admin
Cisco Systems, Inc.

On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, Diane Calleson wrote:

>
>I am also interested in the raw numbers /stats on
>Women as System Admins....  I wonder about the validity
>of the results of our surveys which is a small sample or all 
>Sys-Admins.  Unfortunately, the federal government statistics don't
>keep track of the profession of Systems Admininstation seperately from
>the IT profession as a whole.   Is anyone aware of other IT surveys that
>we might use to compare to our own?  We might get a better idea about
>wether the SAGE membership has a representative sampling of the total
>number of women in the profession.
>
>Diane CAlleson
>calleson@virginia.edu
>
>UVA Electrical Engineering
>




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In-reply-to: (Your message of Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:15:10 EST.)
	<Pine.GSO.4.10.10001181101290.10089-100000@jindo.cisco.com> 
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Nadine Miller <nmiller@cisco.com> writes:
>  I think it would be interesting for SAGE to do a Myers-Briggs workshop
>  at LISA--I certainly would be interested to see the distribution of 
>  personality types in our field.  This could perhaps be rolled into a 
>  "success factors" study for giving guidance to those seeking systems
>  administration as a career choice (as an extension to the certification/
>  education work).  (Sounds like there's a thesis for someone doing
>  psych/career research.)

Well, we're in the (very) early stages of thinking about LISA '00 -
how many folks would be interested in such a thing, either M-B or
some other assessment?  I'm not convinced we could do a great job
at it (the logistics of giving a M-B to lots of people at the
conference is a bit daunting), but...

If not a workshop, perhaps a BOF (and subsequent paper?).  Or hey -
there's months before the LISA submission deadline, and such a
survey might make an interesting paper...

--paw


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 18 17:17:21 2000
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	<200001182120.QAA179534@rigel.dartmouth.edu> 
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I believe that it has been proven that M-B is fairly inaccurate and can vary
greatly with the mood of the person.




----------------------------------------------------------------
     ecf@psc.edu     Esther Filderman    moose+@cmu.edu
        Senior System Mangler, News & AFS Dominatrix  
               Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center




From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 18 17:20:11 2000
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> Well, we're in the (very) early stages of thinking about LISA '00 -
> how many folks would be interested in such a thing, either M-B or some
> other assessment?  I'm not convinced we could do a great job at it
> (the logistics of giving a M-B to lots of people at the conference is
> a bit daunting), but...

A number of these tests already exist on the web, so maybe we could just
direct folks to take an existing one in advance.

> If not a workshop, perhaps a BOF (and subsequent paper?).  Or hey -
> there's months before the LISA submission deadline, and such a
> survey might make an interesting paper...

I'd *love* to work on such a thing.  I've written an essay on the origins
of the sysadmin archetype (or stereotype) that scratches the surface, and
it'd be nice to do a deeper analysis based on M-B types.  Could we dare go
so far as to recommend ways to approach each type, derived and adapted
from _Please Understand Me_, maybe? For example:

INTJ: Approach an INTJ slowly and with your hands in plain sight. 
      You may want to hold up a Trivial Pursuit card or a copy of "Godel,
      Escher, Bach" as a way to make him notice your presence. Avoid
      statements like "I don't use ssh -- telnet's fine," around INTJs.

and so on.  

Origins of Sysadmins: http://www.monkeybagel.com/sysadmin.html
Please Understand Me: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0960695400

Benjy (ENTJ, INTJ, or ENFP, depending on coffee intake/sleep/phase of
moon.)


--
Benjy Feen | benjy@monkeybagel.com | http://www.monkeybagel.com
--



From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 18 19:54:41 2000
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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:54:21 -0500
From: "Melissa D. Binde" <binde@terindell.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Women Sys Admins (a jaunt into the non-technical)
Message-ID: <20000118225421.C4513@terindell.com>
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Twas brillig, on Tue Jan 18 at 07:19:55 PM, and Benjy Feen burbled:

> > Well, we're in the (very) early stages of thinking about LISA '00 -
> > how many folks would be interested in such a thing, either M-B or some
> > other assessment?  I'm not convinced we could do a great job at it
> > (the logistics of giving a M-B to lots of people at the conference is
> > a bit daunting), but...
> 
> A number of these tests already exist on the web, so maybe we could just
> direct folks to take an existing one in advance.

I'd recommend against that.  The ones on the web are very stripped down, and
one of the things about taking the MBTI from a "real person" is that they
can explain things about "tendencies" and "this is how you feel at the
moment", etc.  I've seen a lot of people get very different scores on the
full-length and web versions, and I've seen a lot of folks to get very upset
about not understanding what the MBTI is really about.

> > If not a workshop, perhaps a BOF (and subsequent paper?).  Or hey -
> > there's months before the LISA submission deadline, and such a
> > survey might make an interesting paper...
> 
> I'd *love* to work on such a thing.

I'd volunteer some time as well.  The MBTI has been a hobby, of sorts, in my
family for a great many years.

> Benjy (ENTJ, INTJ, or ENFP, depending on coffee intake/sleep/phase of
> moon.)

ENT[P/J], Once had "F" instead of "T", but only once :).  Used to be "I".


[brief summary:

Extrovert / Introvert
iNtution / Sensing
Thinking / Feeling
Perceiving / Judging]


-M.


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 18 19:58:29 2000
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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:58:24 -0500
From: "Melissa D. Binde" <binde@terindell.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Women Sys Admins (a jaunt into the non-technical)
Message-ID: <20000118225824.D4513@terindell.com>
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Twas brillig, on Tue Jan 18 at 08:17:14 PM, and Esther Filderman burbled:

> I believe that it has been proven that M-B is fairly inaccurate and can vary
> greatly with the mood of the person.

Take it from someone skilled in the giving, and they _should_ explain that
the latter part of your statement is correct.  It DOES vary.  It's all about
tendencies, not hard and fast facts, and it at least tells you what your
tendencies are in the mood you were in.  Given some self-examination, you
can see which parts were exaggerated and which weren't.  You can also take
it multiple times and triangulate.

Or, some people take all the different types, read through them, and take
the one that feels right.

I've been impressed, each time I've taken it, how hard it is to "trick" it.
Usually I have no problems seeing where every single question is going and I
can slant the results to be whatever I wish them to be.  The MBTI is harder,
partly because many questions work on multiple axes (i.e. it's not just a
question to distinguish between "I" and "E") and the same question is
presented in multiple ways.


As for the proposal, my guess is that large samples _will_ approach at least
some modicum of statistical reason.  If nothing else, it's interesting to
compare such things against sampling of "humanity" that have been done.


-M.


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 18 20:19:14 2000
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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:23:42 -0500
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From: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
Subject: Improving writing skills
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Greetings,

As I continue to grow as an administrator I find the level of my papers 
getting more and more complicated.  As a result it seems to be getting 
increasingly difficult to put ideas into words without writing in circles 
or incoherently.

What are some good resources for improving the level of ones writing skills?

Thanks in advance,
- Bennett




From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 18 22:24:23 2000
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find a tech writing course, or a biz writing course at your local community
college.
check with your hr dept, they may pick up the tab.

my company has internal training for such things, in addition to our off-site
education program.

Bennett Samowich wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> As I continue to grow as an administrator I find the level of my papers
> getting more and more complicated.  As a result it seems to be getting
> increasingly difficult to put ideas into words without writing in circles
> or incoherently.
>
> What are some good resources for improving the level of ones writing skills?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> - Bennett



From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 19 05:37:49 2000
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One of my favorite reads of all time is "On Writing Well" by William Zinsser.

Also, a good thick grammar book will cover a lot of what you want to know.
It was a pleasant surprise.  One can approach English (up to a point) as a 
programming language, especially in technical or business writing.

Rich

At 11:23 PM 1/18/00 -0500, Bennett Samowich wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>As I continue to grow as an administrator I find the level of my papers 
>getting more and more complicated.  As a result it seems to be getting 
>increasingly difficult to put ideas into words without writing in circles 
>or incoherently.
>
>What are some good resources for improving the level of ones writing skills?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>- Bennett
>
>
>
>

Richard C. Dempsey                 email: dempsey@kodak.com
Public Online Services             pager: 716-975-3539
11th Floor, Bldg 83, RL            phone: 716-477-3457
Eastman Kodak Company              fax:   716-722-3885
Rochester, NY 14650-2203


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 19 06:15:15 2000
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 Bennett Samowich wrote:
> 
> > Greetings,
> >
> > As I continue to grow as an administrator I find the level of my papers
> > getting more and more complicated.  As a result it seems to be getting
> > increasingly difficult to put ideas into words without writing in circles
> > or incoherently.
> >
> > What are some good resources for improving the level of ones writing skills?
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > - Bennett

I had a composition teacher who said that the way to become a better writer was
to practice writing, and to read well-written material.  Makes sense to me.

My favorite books on writing are:
On Writing Well: The Classic Guide to Writing Nonfiction by William Zinsser 
Writing to Learn by William Zinsser 
The Elements of Style by William, Jr. Strunk, E. B. White

Zinsser advocates keeping it as simple as possible.  His books are a joy to
read.  As you understand his principles, you see how elegant his prose is.
-- 
Paul R. Joslin            paul.joslin@weirdness.com            +1 513 576 2012


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 19 06:24:35 2000
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To: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
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Subject: Re: Improving writing skills 
In-Reply-To: Message from Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com> of "Tue,
	18 Jan 2000 23:23:42 EST."
	<4.2.0.58.20000118232337.00a5fc90@192.168.253.3> 
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Bennett-

I recommend Strunk and White's The Elements of Style.
I just noticed the was a 4th edition published in
August of 1999. This is an excellent and easy-to-read
book. I suggest it will improve the writing style of
almost anyone.

Quentin






From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 19 07:06:47 2000
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To: Pat Wilson <paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
Cc: Nadine Miller <nmiller@cisco.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Women Sys Admins (a jaunt into the non-technical) 
In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:20:20.
	<200001182120.QAA179534@rigel.dartmouth.edu> 
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Pat Wilson <paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu> writes:


 % Well, we're in the (very) early stages of thinking about LISA '00 -
 % how many folks would be interested in such a thing, either M-B or
 % some other assessment?  I'm not convinced we could do a great job
 % at it (the logistics of giving a M-B to lots of people at the
 % conference is a bit daunting), but...

 There was a M-B workshop and survey done at one lisa about 
 8-10 years ago. But I don't think the work was tabulated.

 There are some simplisting M-B type web sites that would let
 you to it via the network.

 I bet it would not be too hard to craft a sage survey 
 via M-B on the network.


 % If not a workshop, perhaps a BOF (and subsequent paper?).  Or hey -
 % there's months before the LISA submission deadline, and such a
 % survey might make an interesting paper...


 What was once free on the network now has a charge. 
 I see http://www.personalitypage.com/indicate.html
 has a test for a fee.

 I am sure that it would be possible to do a survey via 
 the network and make this work well.






-----
John Sechrest          .         Helping people use
CEO PEAK -              .           computers and the Internet
Public Electronic         .            more effectively
Access to Knowledge,Inc       .                      
1600 SW Western, Suite 180       .            Internet: sechrest@peak.org
Corvallis Oregon 97333               .                  (541) 754-7325
                                            . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 19 07:09:55 2000
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To: Paul Joslin <Paul.Joslin@sdrc.com>
Cc: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>, Sage Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Improving writing skills 
In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:15:11 EST.
	<3885C6EF.46E53C96@sdrc.com> 
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:09:34 -0800
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	     After you have practiced writing and 
	     you have read the excellent books that 
	     have been suggested below, it is
	     often a good thing to have your writing
	     reviewed by someone else.

	     Oregon State University currently offers
	     a Writing support email service.
	     The Writing Center on campus will
	     help review your writing to see how
	     to make it better. You send them an email,
	     they send you a critique.

	     I write a short note about it at
	     http://www.peak.org/commentary/writing



	     

Paul Joslin <Paul.Joslin@sdrc.com> writes:

 %  Bennett Samowich wrote:

 % > > As I continue to grow as an administrator I find the level of my papers
 % > > getting more and more complicated.  As a result it seems to be getting
 % > > increasingly difficult to put ideas into words without writing incircles
 % > > or incoherently.

 % > > What are some good resources for improving the 
 % > > level of ones writing skills?


 % I had a composition teacher who said that the way to 
 % become a better writer was
 % to practice writing, and to read well-written material.  
 % Makes sense to me.

 % My favorite books on writing are:
 % On Writing Well: The Classic Guide to Writing Nonfiction by William Zinsser 
 % Writing to Learn by William Zinsser 
 % The Elements of Style by William, Jr. Strunk, E. B. White

 % Zinsser advocates keeping it as simple as possible.  His books are a joy to
 % read.  As you understand his principles, you see how elegant his prose is.


-----
John Sechrest          .         Helping people use
CEO PEAK -              .           computers and the Internet
Public Electronic         .            more effectively
Access to Knowledge,Inc       .                      
1600 SW Western, Suite 180       .            Internet: sechrest@peak.org
Corvallis Oregon 97333               .                  (541) 754-7325
                                            . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 19 07:42:06 2000
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Folks,

I learned to write in newspaper style.  The first paragraph
is the most important paragraph.  The first sentence is the
most important sentence, in each paragraph.  This was taught
in a creative technical writing course years ago.

The assumption is that you have to get the word out early.
Most people don't read long missives, and their attention
needs to be caught early.  So, if they are going to tune you
out, let it be after two or three pages when you don't have
much more to say anyway.

A second principle was keeping each idea simple and uncluttered.
One idea at a time.  One paragraph at a time.  But, the most
important ideas come first (of course).  One paragraph per idea.

In some cases, the final sentence in a paragraph can actually
be skipped, as it is a reiteration or summary of the preceding
material.  Think of how many words can be saved if you do NOT
write that sentence!  To some degree, this email was written
that way.

You need to focus on communicating concepts, ideas, or principles.
Forget trying to explain it chronologically (just because you
lived it that way).  


Bill Shorter


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 19 08:24:22 2000
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From: "David R. Linn" <drl@vuse.vanderbilt.edu>
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Subject: Re: Women Sys Admins (a jaunt into the non-technical) 
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>> Well, we're in the (very) early stages of thinking about LISA '00 -
>> how many folks would be interested in such a thing, either M-B or
>> some other assessment?  I'm not convinced we could do a great job
>> at it (the logistics of giving a M-B to lots of people at the
>> conference is a bit daunting), but...
>> 
>> If not a workshop, perhaps a BOF (and subsequent paper?).  Or hey -
>> there's months before the LISA submission deadline, and such a
>> survey might make an interesting paper...

As other have indicated, M-B and related type/temperament tests are
already available on the net.  One such related site is

	http://www.keirsey.com/
	
This test is (much) shorter than the M-B test and thus even more
susceptible to daily variance than M-B (I can be any of 3 different
types depending on mood and energy level) but is correspondingly
easier to take.



From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 19 09:26:02 2000
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Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:25:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: SUMMARY: brief email survey (finally)
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Ok, I got a total of fifty responses, myself included.  This is pretty
unscientific, and as many people pointed out, the questions were not
always well-defined enough to allow an accurate answer.  Some numeric
answers were ranges, and varied widely.  If anyone would like more
detail or a different sort of summary, feel free to write me
privately.  I'm not going to print names or companies with responses,
but I will say that we got a decent mix of large and small as well as
geographic diversity.

For question 1 (what mail server software do you run):
41 use sendmail
8 use Exchange
5 use qmail
3 use postfix
2 use Netscape
1 uses Mercury
1 uses cc:mail
1 uses Domino
1 uses exim
1 uses Groupwise
1 uses Quickmail
(Answers do not add to 50 because some people have multiple servers
with multiple products)

For question 2 (what mail clients do users use):
21 said Outlook
20 said Netscape
17 said any
10 said Eudora
2 said Lotus Notes
1 said cc:mail
1 said MS Internet Mail
1 said Pegasus
1 said PMMail
1 said Star Office
1 said Mulberry
Almost everybody mentioned Unix mailers (pine, elm, mh, dtmailer,
mutt) in addition, but the stress here was on PC clients.  Again, many
people had more than one response to this.

For question 3a (do users get/send mail remotely):
48: yes
2: no

For question 3b (how do users connect remotely to send):
22 don't allow offsite-offsite mail at all
13 use some sort of local mode (dialup, VPN, SSH tunnel, hardcoded IP)
5 use pop-before-smtp (auth varies -- SSL, SSH, SecurID, Kerberos)
4 said they allow it but didn't specify how
2 didn't answer
1 uses SMTP Auth
1 uses cc:mail's mobile with RAS
1 has an open relay

For question 4 (email size limit):
19 don't have one (one said "we should")
1 has 10Mb inbound, no outbound limit
50kb
100kb
2Mb (3)
3Mb (2)
4Mb (3)
5Mb
8Mb (2)
10Mb (6)
15Mb
20Mb
25Mb
50Mb
80Mb
3 varied
1 confidential
1 didn't answer
11 said there are no exceptions
3 said there are exceptions

For question 5 (file system quotas):
34 have none
2Mb
8Mb
10Mb (3)
12Mb
20Mb
25Mb
30Mb
50Mb
280Mb (practical limit)
3 said yes, varies
1 said "very large"

For question 6 (a: #users, b: #admins, c: #servers, d:#workstations):
The question was admittedly faulty -- there wasn't enough detail about
what kinds of workstations, what constitutes a server, where the users
are (in the case of huge, multinational companies), etc.
Anyway:
A - ranged from 24 to 120000
B - ranged from 1 to 350 (or "hundreds")
C - ranged from 2 to 1000
D - ranged from 5 to 50000

Some general observations:
Smaller companies tend to be more lax in their restrictions.
Educational instutitions tend to have more security (no remote mail
access and tighter quotas/limits).

Once again (and finally), I'd like to thank you for your
participation.  

My purposes for doing this were several:
1) I want to justify my choice of moving from sendmail to postfix
(this survey doesn't help that)
2) I want to justify my choice of having an email size limit
(currently 4Mb)
3) I'd like to stop relaying mail for offsite users or get a webmail
package instead (right now we use POP-before-SMTP, which is admittedly
a hacky kludge).
4) I wanted to see how large the companies were that did/did not do
the above

-Adam



From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 19 10:12:40 2000
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Subject: Re: Improving writing skills
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One technique that I've found useful when writing missives that have to be
long (for whatever reason) is to put an executive summary at the top.
Especially if I'm actually writing to executives (or other people who aren't
necessarily very technical): It may be important to document all the
elaborate details, and they may want to have all that detail around for
later reference, but they don't necessarily need to read and understand it
all in order to say "yes, go do it". The summary lets decision-makers figure
out quickly what I'm suggesting, and make their decisions, without having to
slog through the gory (but important) details.

It's also handy when sending mail to a diverse audience; sending downtime or
system change announcements to a bunch of end users, for example. Some of
the users may be very technical, and interested in the details of what's
going on, while others may just want to know how it affects them.

To chime in on another thread, I also feel like I learned to write by doing
lots of reading and writing. I took composition classes in high school, but
I don't know that they taught me very many specific techniques, as opposed
to just giving me opportunities to write and get feedback. Reading and
thinking about other people's writing also helps, and in fact the style of
my writing still sometimes tends to mimic whatever I've been reading recently.

                                      -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com)


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Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:26:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Nadine Miller <nmiller@cisco.com>
To: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
cc: Sage Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Improving writing skills
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Bennett--

I've read the various responses from folks, and everyone has
given good ideas.

My personal emphasis would be on three things:

1) practice--analyze your writing whenever you write, not just 
   when you are concentrating on those papers.  Use email, more 
   formal spoken settings, etc. as a practice opportunity.

2) coaching--find anyone whom you think has reasonable writing/reading/
   critical thinking skills, and ask them to honestly critique your
   writing.  They may not have the "jargon" that an English/Tech writing
   coach might use, but communication spans everyone's experience.

3) audience--audience analysis tends to be overlooked as a key element
   guiding the style of writing.  Successful communication requires 
   tailoring to your audience (insofar as possible).

I think books are helpful, but you cannot place 100% faith in them.
As I told my technical writing students, you can follow all the rules
of "good English" and still have a poorly written piece.  Conversely, 
it is possible to violate the rules, and still successfully communicate.

ObSAGE reference:  I have toyed with the idea of a "writing" tutorial
at LISA (Hal's tutorial on presentations at '98 gave me the idea)--if
folks think that would be useful/have interest, please drop me a line.

=Nadine=

--
N. Nadine Miller
ECS Sys Admin
Cisco Systems, Inc.

On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Bennett Samowich wrote:

>Greetings,
>
>As I continue to grow as an administrator I find the level of my papers 
>getting more and more complicated.  As a result it seems to be getting 
>increasingly difficult to put ideas into words without writing in circles 
>or incoherently.
>
>What are some good resources for improving the level of ones writing skills?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>- Bennett
>
>
>



From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 19 12:46:02 2000
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Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:44:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Nadine Miller <nmiller@cisco.com>
To: "Melissa D. Binde" <binde@terindell.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Personality instruments (off topic)
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Waay off-topic.  Sorry.

Interesting hearing folks' experience with the various Jungian-based
personality type instruments.  Doubly so because my type *never*
varies. :-)  Hard-core INTP (though those who have only see me teach
would never think so :-).

There are a couple of issues with instruments such as the Keirsey
temperament sorter and the MBTI.  First off, they are "forced choice",
meaning that you have a/b (sometimes a/b/c), and that's all.  You
can't indicate how much you prefer one over the other.

Second, it's a self-reporting instrument, so there can be variances
based on self-perception (though the MBTI folks claim this is rare).
>From the one example I have personal knowledge of, I would speculate
that since the MBTI is often administered in the workplace, people
may project and select for attributes that they have identified as
successful in their workplace, rather than their own preferences.
But again, that's total speculation on my part.

I have also heard from various sources that the Keirsey temperament
sorter has a tendency to mis-identify some elements of type (I can't
remember if it is T/F or J/P).

A recent newer Jung-based typing system is the "brain types" system
developed by a financial analyst turned psychology buff.  His system
uses interviews with the subject, including physical activity to ID
a person's type.  As you might imagine, he's a sports consultant. :-)

Another instrument out there is the Singer-Loomis Type Definition
Inventory (I believe it was previously called the Singer-Loomis 
Inventory of Personality).  My understanding is that these use a 
sliding scale to determine your preferences rather than forced-choice.

The other instrument that Keirsey mentions is the Grey-Wheelright;
I have not been able to find any info on the internet about it.

=Nadine=


On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Melissa D. Binde wrote:

>Twas brillig, on Tue Jan 18 at 08:17:14 PM, and Esther Filderman burbled:
>
>> I believe that it has been proven that M-B is fairly inaccurate and can vary
>> greatly with the mood of the person.
>
>Take it from someone skilled in the giving, and they _should_ explain that
>the latter part of your statement is correct.  It DOES vary.  It's all about
>tendencies, not hard and fast facts, and it at least tells you what your
>tendencies are in the mood you were in.  Given some self-examination, you
>can see which parts were exaggerated and which weren't.  You can also take
>it multiple times and triangulate.
>
>Or, some people take all the different types, read through them, and take
>the one that feels right.
>
>I've been impressed, each time I've taken it, how hard it is to "trick" it.
>Usually I have no problems seeing where every single question is going and I
>can slant the results to be whatever I wish them to be.  The MBTI is harder,
>partly because many questions work on multiple axes (i.e. it's not just a
>question to distinguish between "I" and "E") and the same question is
>presented in multiple ways.
>
>
>As for the proposal, my guess is that large samples _will_ approach at least
>some modicum of statistical reason.  If nothing else, it's interesting to
>compare such things against sampling of "humanity" that have been done.
>
>
>-M.
>



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From: "Brian D. Silverio" <briands@bellatlantic.net>
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I will add my voice to the support for Strunk and White.
For many years now I have given a copy to new hire admins
and suggested they read it.

My favorite suggestion from the book:
"Omit needless words."


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	of "Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:26:37 PST." 
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Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:12:13 -0700
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>2) coaching--find anyone whom you think has reasonable writing/reading/
>   critical thinking skills, and ask them to honestly critique your
>   writing.  

Since we're talking about proper writing skills, and since you went
so far as to try to properly inflect <who>, I feel compelled to
report that properly put, that would be <who you think has>, actually. :-)
                                         ---


Time for a pop quiz!  For a good time, try your hand at filling in
the blanks with the correct choice between "whoever" and "whomever"
in the dozen questions below.  Think of it as a twelve-step program
for recovering who/whom confusers. :-)

     1.  Give it to ____.
     2.  Give it to ____ is going.
     3.  Give it to ____ you please.
     4.  Give it to ____ pleases you.
     5.  Give it to ____ you told to go.
     6.  Give it to ____ you think is going.
     7.  Give it to ____ you told Jimmy was going.
     8.  Give it to ____ you think you told to go.
     9.  Give it to ____ you think Jimmy told to go.
    10.  Give it to ____ you think Jimmy told you was going.
    11.  Give it to ____ you think is going to be told to go.
    12.  Give it to ____ you think Jimmy is going to tell to go. 

I guarantee you this: once you can consistently score 100% on this
quiz because you understand precisely why what goes where, as it
were, you can safely bask in the assurance that you'll never, *ever*
mess it up again.  But if anyone besides Elizabeth manages to get
all twelve of these right on their first try, you might want to
consider hiring that person to proofread your company's technical
documents--well, if they aren't already doing so, that is. :-)

If you'd like a hint about how to go about solving this puzzle,
just remember to use the "who" form whenever the word is functioning
as the subject of its clause, and the "whom" form whenever the word
is functioning as an object in its clause.  The crux is that
determination of grammatical case here is made irrespective of any
surrounding context outside of that clause.  To simplify your task
even further, it turns out that direct object versus indirect object
doesn't matter in English--thank goodness! :-)

I figure it this way: if you can manage to declare an array of
pointers to functions returning pointers to arrays of pointers to
functions returning character pointers (and maybe thrown in some
consts here and there, just to spice things up) in C, then this
who/whom stuff is *really* simple, eh?  :-)

--tom

Answer key:

    Gur fragraprf gung gnxr "jubrire" ner ahzoref gjb, sbhe, fvk,
    frira, gra, naq ryrira.

    Gubfr gung gnxr "jubzrire" ner ahzoref bar, guerr, svir, rvtug,
    avar, naq gjryir.

And no, that's not "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg
thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul." :-)  Do the right thing.


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On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Bennett Samowich wrote:

>Greetings,
>
> As I continue to grow as an administrator I find the level of
> my papers getting more and more complicated.  As a result it 
> seems to be getting increasingly difficult to put ideas into 
> words without writing in circles or incoherently.

For organizational skills, you've probably already got what you
need - if it's a paper, try to develop a coherent outline ahead
of time, then just fill in the blanks.  It divides the design
side up from the writing side.  Useful to some of us who are
border line (or full-blown) attention-deficit people...

> What are some good resources for improving the level of ones 
> writing skills?

Reading...  Anything by Eric Raymond, he puts them big words 
together goodly.
-- 
Sean MacGuire, Reality Engineer               sean@MacLawran.ca
The Big Brother Ministry of Truth      http://maclawran.ca/sean
icbm --> 45'31.06N-73'35.19W                    +1 514 996 4638
              "Looking down the barrel of another day"


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 19 19:10:41 2000
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	Jan 2000 12:26:37 PST."   
	<Pine.GSO.4.10.10001191213100.24994-100000@jindo.cisco.com>
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From: Elizabeth Zwicky <zwicky@greatcircle.com>
Subject: Re: Improving writing skills
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I recommend "Thinking on Paper" (V. A. Howard
and J. H. Barton) as a good introduction to writing.
I love The Elements of Style, but it helps you get
from bad sentences to good sentences; Thinking on
Paper will help you get from a handful of ideas to
some sentences, in a reasonable order. (Note:
Outlining first is by no means the only way to
do this and you should not despair if outlines
don't work for you!)

Another important tool is the right reference. A dictionary is all very
well, but it's not going to take you very far, and grammar checkers
can't be trusted. I recommend the Chicago Manual of Style and
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage.

The latter has nearly two full pages on "who" versus "whom",
a live issue since the earliest days of English grammarians.
It does suggest that you probably ought to use "who" as a
subject and "whom" as an object, at least in writing. As a
fallback, use "who" everywhere; this has been acceptable
in all but the most formal contexts for the entire history
of modern English. And, in fact, there are learned reasons
to suspect that most of the places where people use
"whom" when grammarians want "who" are in fact
the result of perfectly rule-based behavior. Furthermore,
even the prescriptive grammarians are not consistent
about putting "whom" everywhere it might be called for.
(Is it "Whom is this for?" or "Who is this for?")

But all of this is the sort of thing that makes people
either sulkily give up on writing at all, or spend
hours of dogged effort on getting some obscure
rule right while they lose all semblance of coherence.
I just know this stuff so I can bash back when people
complain about my habit of using "who"  any time I
feel like it, which is just about every time.

	Elizabeth




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> From: Nadine Miller <nmiller@cisco.com>
> 
> ObSAGE reference:  I have toyed with the idea of a "writing" tutorial
> at LISA (Hal's tutorial on presentations at '98 gave me the idea)--if
> folks think that would be useful/have interest, please drop me a line.
> 

Mike Ciavarella has run a "documentation techniques for system
administrators" tutorial at SAGE-AU for the past three years. I'm
trying to convince Dan Klein (USENIX tutorial coordinator) that this
would be well received at LISA.

Can people drop me a note to indicate their interest. I'll summarize to
Dan.


Warm regards,

Geoff
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geoff Halprin                                  Geoff.Halprin@sysadmin.com.au
Managing Director                                 http://www.sysadmin.com.au
The SysAdmin Group Pty Ltd                            Phone: +61-3-9686-3233
238 Richardson Street, Middle Park, VIC 3206          Fax:   +61-3-9686-3399
PGP Fingerprint: (FE349AAD) 05 93 68 35 B2 09 8E 6F  79 8C 16 F8 8F BC 2E CB
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 19 19:36:30 2000
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To: Elizabeth Zwicky <zwicky@greatcircle.com>
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Cc: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>, Sage Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Improving writing skills 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:11:07 MST."
	<l03130311b4ac1859f241@[63.196.29.147]> 
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:35:54 -0700
Message-ID: <14495.948339354@chthon>
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@chthon.perl.com>
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I doubt whether nay natural speaker ever uses "whom" of his own free
will, save perhaps rarely when it immediately follows a
preposition, and even that's not proven.   I believe that all other
behavior is learned, or more likely, learnèd. :-)  As you point out,
the initial position in an interrogative sentence cries out for
"who" to the unjaded ear who's never heard of big, long, ugly words
like nominative or accusative, let alone more abstruse terms like
ablative or vocative.   How's that quote go?  "Even if you did
manage to learn proper English, whom could you hope to speak it
to?"

That doesn't mean that I don't try to use the presciptively/artificially
correct choice in format writing.  In speaking, though, most English
speakers seem to have a hard time forecasting the parts of speech
of speech still unuttered, which means they end up being unable to
choose between who or whom used as a relative pronoun, and so end
up grabbing one based on a single-token look-ahead or look-behind.
As my previous message exhaustively demonstrated, that simply doesn't
work.

People using "who" where the presciptive rule calls for "whom" don't
bother me at all.  That's just how natural speakers speak.  But
those who use "whom" where the rule calls for "who" are a different
matter, because they're trying to be *more* correct, even more so
than makes any sense from the perspective of natural speech, and
by bending over backwards, they mess it up completely.  It's just
an example of how perilous a little knowledge can be.  It's the
kind of thing that tempts the creation of such completely sillinesses
as "ignorami".  (You know, it just now occurs to me that "ignorami"
is beautifully autological in a wicked kind of way. :-)

Futilely pretending to bring this back to anything resembling the
initial thread, when it comes to usage books, I'm very much in the
Fowler camp, although don't drag me into an argument about the third
edition.  Chicago and I are not on very good terms, however.  We
have this disagreement over serial commas, you see.  :-)

--tom


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 19 20:15:03 2000
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Reply-To: "Francisco Manso" <frank@scriptics.com>
From: "Francisco Manso" <frank@scriptics.com>
To: "Sage Members" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Cc: <welch@scriptics.com>
References: <NABBLIPKFPKFPBJCOMKGAEHFCLAA.briands@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: wu-ftpd problem
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:18:18 -0800
Organization: Scriptics Corp
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Hi,
I have installed the latest release of wu-ftpd (2.6) for Solaris 7, and I
have one problem with the built in ls

even I compile it having the internal ls disabled , whenever I type ls, only
files show up, but directories, on the other hand, if I use any variety of
options in ls (ls -l ls -a.. ) all the directories show up and the files,
but also it is using the ls binary that resides in ~ftp/bin.

so I decide to compile it with internal ls enabled, and Ihave the same
behavour, but when I add some options , as ls -l or ls -a, it just uses the
built-in ls, and works...

Has anybody realize of this problem??
and does anybody know how to disable the build-in ls, without having to go
to the ftpd.c file

I have already posted this question to wu-ftpd discussion lists, but I think
it is a problem any sysadmin could find when installing this wu-ftpd (in
release 2.4 , the build-in ls showed dirs, for example)

thank you

Francisco Manso
------------------------------------------------
Systems Manager
Scriptics Corporation
------------------------------------------------
francisco.manso@scriptics.com
Ph:  (650) 210 0139
Fax: (650) 210 0101
------------------------------------------------
2593 Coast Ave.
Mountain View, CA 94043
http://www.scriptics.com
------------------------------------------------




From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 19 20:34:02 2000
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Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:33:44 -0800
From: David Alban <alban@datawire.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Improving writing skills
Message-ID: <20000119203344.A20888@datawire.com>
Reply-To: extasia@mindspring.com
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My two bullets worth...

. Spend time reading over and over again what you've written before
  you send, publish, or otherwise "release" it.  The more time you
  spend reviewing your work as a reader, the more Bad Things you'll
  catch.  As well, the more passes you make through what you've
  written, the more likely it is that you'll find ways to improve
  it.[1]

. If you're not sure how to use a metaphor, idiom, colloquialism, or
  other language device, don't use it![2]  Rewrite it in terms about
  which you can be confident.

David

[1]  Yes, I know, there has to be a stopping point, a point at which
     you "just have to go with what you have".  But I submit that
     the stopping point is reached much too soon by many authors of
     work related writing that I must read.

[2]  This is not to say "Don't learn it", but "Don't use it until
     you're sure you know how."  Or "Go learn about it and then use
     it".  
-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 19 21:55:22 2000
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Subject: Re: wu-ftpd problem 
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	<00b701bf62fd$6110eb90$b7c918d1@scriptics.com>
Comments: In-reply-to "Francisco Manso" <frank@scriptics.com>
	message dated "Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:18:18 -0800."
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To be clear - the wu-ftp 2.6 "ls" command only returns files, not directories.
If you do "ls -l", you see files and directories.
If you do "ls", you only see files.
This behaviour seems to be independent of compiling with our without
the "internal" ls.  The source code is a mess as well.

Does anyone have experience with ProFTPD ?
I note that the http://www.proftpd.org/download.html  page
references the "1.2.0pre8" release, but the FTP site at
ftp.tos.net has 1.2.0pre10 and 1.2.0pre9

>>>"Francisco Manso" said:
 > Hi,
 > I have installed the latest release of wu-ftpd (2.6) for Solaris 7, and I
 > have one problem with the built in ls
 > 
 > even I compile it having the internal ls disabled , whenever I type ls, only
 > files show up, but directories, on the other hand, if I use any variety of
 > options in ls (ls -l ls -a.. ) all the directories show up and the files,
 > but also it is using the ls binary that resides in ~ftp/bin.
 > 
 > so I decide to compile it with internal ls enabled, and Ihave the same
 > behavour, but when I add some options , as ls -l or ls -a, it just uses the
 > built-in ls, and works...
 > 
 > Has anybody realize of this problem??
 > and does anybody know how to disable the build-in ls, without having to go
 > to the ftpd.c file
 > 
 > I have already posted this question to wu-ftpd discussion lists, but I think
 > it is a problem any sysadmin could find when installing this wu-ftpd (in
 > release 2.4 , the build-in ls showed dirs, for example)
 > 
 > thank you
 > 
 > Francisco Manso
 > ------------------------------------------------
 > Systems Manager
 > Scriptics Corporation
 > ------------------------------------------------
 > francisco.manso@scriptics.com
 > Ph:  (650) 210 0139
 > Fax: (650) 210 0101
 > ------------------------------------------------
 > 2593 Coast Ave.
 > Mountain View, CA 94043
 > http://www.scriptics.com
 > ------------------------------------------------
 > 
 > 

--	Brent Welch	<welch@scriptics.com>
	http://www.scriptics.com
	Scriptics: The Tcl Platform Company




From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 19 22:03:39 2000
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Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:01:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Nadine Miller <nmiller@cisco.com>
To: Elizabeth Zwicky <zwicky@greatcircle.com>
cc: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@chthon.perl.com>,
	Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>, Sage Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Improving writing skills
In-Reply-To: <l03130311b4ac1859f241@[63.196.29.147]>
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On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Elizabeth Zwicky wrote:

>I recommend "Thinking on Paper" (V. A. Howard
>and J. H. Barton) as a good introduction to writing.
>I love The Elements of Style, but it helps you get
>from bad sentences to good sentences; Thinking on
>Paper will help you get from a handful of ideas to
>some sentences, in a reasonable order. (Note:
>Outlining first is by no means the only way to
>do this and you should not despair if outlines
>don't work for you!)

On the topic of drafting styles:

I always fought with my prof's about outlining and drafting.
I hated it.  My process was all in my head, so that never 
worked.  I wrote everything down, then revised once, and 
that was it.  I drove them nuts! :-)

While taking a class on writing centers, I was introduced
to the concept of "free-writing".  I would encourage anyone
who has problems getting more than a couple of sentences out
before going into "grammarian" mode (e.g. 'self-censoring')
to take up free-writing to bring more fluidity to your writing.

I also advocate "non-linear" outlines (I use them all the time
when doing course development)--"mind maps" are one term for them.

A friend knew someone who cut apart her papers and assembled the
ideas like building blocks to work out her structures.

I believe that lots of people hate writing because they have been
taught writing in a proscriptive manner, and have been taught that
there is a prescription for good writing.  Neither attitude does
anything to improve the quality or quantity of good writing, in
my opinion.

>But all of this is the sort of thing that makes people
>either sulkily give up on writing at all, or spend
>hours of dogged effort on getting some obscure
>rule right while they lose all semblance of coherence.
>I just know this stuff so I can bash back when people
>complain about my habit of using "who"  any time I
>feel like it, which is just about every time.

Yeah!  Me too! :-)  Language evolves.  If we listened to all those
proscriptive old farts, we'd have a hard time writing about a great
deal of the stuff that we all do in our fields.

(The Normans tried to force French onto the Anglo-Saxons, but we're 
still speaking English--and most of us can struggle through Old English.
So much for the language police. :-)

=Nadine=



From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 19 22:39:32 2000
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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 01:46:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Sienkiewicz <mark@chokey.mo.md.us>
Message-Id: <200001200646.BAA03802@chokey.mo.md.us>
To: brs@ben-tech.com, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Improving writing skills
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>As I continue to grow as an administrator I find the level of my papers 
>getting more and more complicated.  As a result it seems to be getting 
>increasingly difficult to put ideas into words without writing in circles 
>or incoherently.

One thing you might find useful is to look at old material that
you have written.  By looking at your own text, you may be able to
form an opinion of it as if someone else wrote it.  By using old
material, you avoid having a fresh memory of writing it.

The idea is to approach the document as a reader.  You don't want
to still be thinking in terms of "I am writing this" because that
is a very different process.  When writing, you have the idea and
are trying to derive words.  You really want to see how it works
when you have words and want to derive ideas.

>From this sort of excersize, you can see what about your writing
style works and what doesn't.

You can do it informally, just by looking up old documents or
searching for your name in deja-news.  Or you might make a
habit of it, say by writing something once a week and then
reading the same assignment from a few months ago.

I don't make a formal practice of it, but I do like to read old
documents I've written when I come across them.  I even read my
own posts to mailing lists and netnews when they come back to me
the next day.



From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 19 23:01:27 2000
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To: "Francisco Manso" <frank@scriptics.com>
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Subject: Re: wu-ftpd problem
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	<00b701bf62fd$6110eb90$b7c918d1@scriptics.com>
In-Reply-To: "Francisco Manso"'s message of "Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:18:18 -0800"
From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>
Organization: The Eyrie
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Francisco Manso <frank@scriptics.com> writes:

> even I compile it having the internal ls disabled , whenever I type ls,
> only files show up, but directories, on the other hand, if I use any
> variety of options in ls (ls -l ls -a.. ) all the directories show up
> and the files, but also it is using the ls binary that resides in
> ~ftp/bin.

That puzzled me for a while too.  From the wu-ftpd FAQ:

  25. Directory listings are wrong and miss directories 

        Starting wu-ftpd 2.6.0, the interpretation of NLST versus LIST ftp
        commands has been changed to what is the right interpretation.
        NLST lists retrievable files for the ftp mget command, LIST lists
        all files for a human reader.  Suggested fix: fix the client
        software.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)         <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


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From: "Mark Boltz" <mark.boltz@transnexus.com>
To: "Sage Members" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: RE: Improving writing skills
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:35:55 -0500
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Another useful book, for those who may not want, or need, the full Chicago
Manual, would be Turabian's "Writing for Thesis, Dissertations, etc." I
don't remember the exact title, but Turabian was required for several
literature classes I took in school; it's based on Chicago (Kate Turabian
was a professor at Chicago), but in a much simpler form. The first part of
the book covers style, much like Strunk and White, and the second half deals
with citations and paper formatting. When it comes to the latter, it depends
on what you are writing about, and to whom you are writing...scientific
stuff tends to put an emphasis on how recent the research is, so the date
gets high importance in the citation, whereas more social/humanitarian works
focus more on the importance of who said it.

For the topic of outlining, I actually prefer the "free-writing method". I
learned it from Stephen King, actually. When I was in high school, I
corresponded with Mr. King, seeking advice on writing. He said to just write
first...don't interrupt the process unless you absolutely have to. If you
are writing about a city in South America, but aren't sure about the name,
don't go look it up, but just write in "Miami" or something and fix it
later. Only after you've completed the work should you go back and
edit...many people have the habit now of editing as they go, and so they end
up spending all their time on the grammar and spelling, and lose track of
the ideas.

And never, ever rely on the spell check or grammar check of software. I've
noticed that Word 2000 is even more enthusiastic about correcting spelling,
which is a detriment to us all, as no one will ever learn that they're
spelling the words wrong in the first place with this auto-editing
feature...

I also fully endorse the suggestion to practice, practice, practice.

--------------------
Mark Boltz
Sr. System Administrator
TransNexus, LLC
http://www.transnexus.com/





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To: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@chthon.perl.com>
Cc: Elizabeth Zwicky <zwicky@greatcircle.com>,
	Nadine Miller <nmiller@cisco.com>, Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>, 
	Sage Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Improving writing skills 
In-Reply-To: Message from Tom Christiansen <tchrist@chthon.perl.com> 
	of "Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:35:54 MST." <14495.948339354@chthon> 
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That can't be it.  You've got a dangling preposition.

tchrist@chthon.perl.com said:
>  How's that quote go?  "Even if you did manage to learn proper
> English, whom could you hope to speak it to?"





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To: Chip Christian <chip@princetonecom.com>
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Subject: Re: Improving writing skills 
In-Reply-To: Message from Chip Christian <chip@princetonecom.com> of "Thu,
	20 Jan 2000 10:04:55 EST."
	<20000120150455.3AEBFB47B@fleck.princetonecom.com> 
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:24:34 -0700
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>That can't be it.  You've got a dangling preposition.

>tchrist@chthon.perl.com said:
>>  How's that quote go?  "Even if you did manage to learn proper
>> English, whom could you hope to speak it to?"


No, that really is it.  There's no such thing as a "dangling
preposition" in English.  We aren't speaking Latin.  Please, let's
not go into it.  I don't want to have to undo reams of linguistically
unsound, schoolmarm-inflicted brain-damage not to boldly split infinitives
or how prepositions are nasty words to end sentences with.  

The original quote is supposed to be funny.  It is intentionally
stilted because it places "Whom" in the initial position of the
sentence, something that I suspect no natural speaker honestly does
save perhaps for comic relief, as I see occurring here.  The fact
that this hearkens back to the stereotypical butler-speak of "Whom
shall I say is calling?", which also uses the repellant initial-position
"whom", and even more notably uses it completely incorrectly, just
adds to that comic effect.

Whether the entire "whom" inflection belongs in the same category
as the other two matters I just mentioned is something I prefer to
relegate to the serious researchers.  The general rule to always
use "who" will get you in far less trouble than any other strategy,
unless you are very, very, very careful, and maybe even then. :-)

--tom


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 20 07:25:56 2000
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To: "Sage Members" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: wu-ftpd problem 
In-Reply-To: <200001200554.VAA14262@pop.scriptics.com>
References: <NABBLIPKFPKFPBJCOMKGAEHFCLAA.briands@bellatlantic.net>
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I've recently switched to using NcFTPd, and I'm very happy with it so far. I
just set it up in a situation where I needed an anonymous-only FTP server
that allowed connections from everywhere, and a real-users-only server that
allowed connections only from localhost (to force realy users to use SSH
tunneling to connect), both on a single machine (with two IP addresses). I
was able to do it in a snap with NcFTPd (plus tcp-wrappers to enforce the
"only connect from localhost" rule). See http://www.ncftp.com/ for more
info; it's free for .edu domains, cheap for others (and you can download and
try it for free regardless). No connection to the company, I'm just a
satisfied user.

                                      -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com)


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 20 07:30:18 2000
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Subject: Re: Improving writing skills 
In-reply-to: Mail from Chip Christian <chip@princetonecom.com> 
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``... to whom could you hope to speak it.''

I believe there is another that goes something like ``dangling
prepositions are something up with which we shall not put.''

eric


============= In Reply To: ===========================================
: From:  Chip Christian <chip@princetonecom.com>
: Subject:  Re: Improving writing skills 
: Date:  Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:04:55 -0500

: That can't be it.  You've got a dangling preposition.
: 
: tchrist@chthon.perl.com said:
: >  How's that quote go?  "Even if you did manage to learn proper
: > English, whom could you hope to speak it to?"
: 
: 
: 




From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 20 07:36:33 2000
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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 07:35:00 -0800
From: Graham Dunn <gdunn@kurai.org>
To: Sage Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Improving writing skills
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On Wed, Jan 19, 2000 at 08:35:54PM -0700, Tom Christiansen wrote:
[snip]

> an example of how perilous a little knowledge can be.  It's the
> kind of thing that tempts the creation of such completely sillinesses
> as "ignorami".  (You know, it just now occurs to me that "ignorami"
> is beautifully autological in a wicked kind of way. :-)

ignorami: n: The BOFH art or process of folding problem lusers
	     into representational shapes.

-Graham


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 20 08:01:56 2000
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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:01:47 -0600 (EST)
From: "Marc W. Mengel" <mengel@fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: wu-ftpd problem
In-reply-to: <00b701bf62fd$6110eb90$b7c918d1@scriptics.com>
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On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Francisco Manso wrote:
> Hi,
> I have installed the latest release of wu-ftpd (2.6) for Solaris 7, and I
> have one problem with the built in ls
> 
> even I compile it having the internal ls disabled , whenever I type ls, only
> files show up, but directories, on the other hand, if I use any variety of
> options in ls (ls -l ls -a.. ) all the directories show up and the files,
> but also it is using the ls binary that resides in ~ftp/bin.
> 
> so I decide to compile it with internal ls enabled, and Ihave the same
> behavour, but when I add some options , as ls -l or ls -a, it just uses the
> built-in ls, and works...
> 
> Has anybody realize of this problem??
> and does anybody know how to disable the build-in ls, without having to go
> to the ftpd.c file

The problem is they use a (different) built in ls for an NLST command,
regardless whether  you asked for the built in ls.  I hacked this in my
copy, by resorting to the code from an earlier version in ftpcmd.y
around line 380:

    | NLST check_login CRLF
        =       {
            if (log_commands)
                syslog(LOG_INFO, "NLST");
            if ($2 && !restrict_check("."))
                retrieve("/bin/ls", "");
                /* send_file_list(""); */
        }
    | NLST check_login SP STRING CRLF
        =       {
            if (log_commands)
                syslog(LOG_INFO, "NLST %s", $4);
            if ($2 && $4 && !restrict_check($4))
                retrieve("/bin/ls", $4);
                /* send_file_list($4); */
            if ($4 != NULL)
                free($4);
        }

I commented out the send_file_list() calls, and called
retrieve("/bin/ls",..) directly (which send_file_list() does sometimes).

I've been meaning to figure out whats going wrong with the 
send_file_list() routine, and send a constructive bug report to
the wuftpd-members list, but so far no luck.

Marc Mengel <mengel@fnal.gov>




From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 20 08:24:07 2000
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I've enjoyed reading this thread.  

Writing skills, in my opinion, become increasingly important as one
progresses in one's career as a system or network administrator.  And I've
observed that the subject of writing skills gets asked about more often in
job interviews than in the past.

I have found it very helpful to familiarize myself with the Outline "View"
of MS Word, and to start every document in an outline format. I think it's
probably one of the best (if not overlooked) features of
MS Word.

Phil

Sean MacGuire wrote:
 
<...>

> For organizational skills, you've probably already got what you
> need - if it's a paper, try to develop a coherent outline ahead
> of time, then just fill in the blanks.  It divides the design
> side up from the writing side.  Useful to some of us who are
> border line (or full-blown) attention-deficit people...
> 
> > What are some good resources for improving the level of ones
> > writing skills?
> 
> Reading...  Anything by Eric Raymond, he puts them big words
> together goodly.
> --
> Sean MacGuire, Reality Engineer               sean@MacLawran.ca
> The Big Brother Ministry of Truth      http://maclawran.ca/sean
> icbm --> 45'31.06N-73'35.19W                    +1 514 996 4638
>               "Looking down the barrel of another day"

-- 
Phil Temples <phil@temples.com>


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 20 08:46:06 2000
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Chip Christian wrote:
> 
> That can't be it.  You've got a dangling preposition.
> 
> tchrist@chthon.perl.com said:
> >  How's that quote go?  "Even if you did manage to learn proper
> > English, whom could you hope to speak it to?"

Might it have been:

Even should you manage to learn proper English, with whom could you hope to
speak?

C'mon all you english majors out there, tear it apart!!!

(:-)

The purpose of writing should be to communicate. This concept is apparently
not clear to all individuals who take up a pen or sit in front of a keyboard!

Using correct (or reasonably correct) english makes it more likely that you
will be understood by the reader. It can also help prevent your ideas from
being discarded out of hand (or is that: out-of-hand?) because the reader
assumes that bad english means that the writer is one of the ignorami (I'm
going to have to remember that one, Tom!).

I learned most of my English by reading and writing. I try to make all of my
written communication (including email) be as correct in grammar and spelling
as I can. I prefer to be understood and taken seriously. 

When I first started work (in the days before email), my boss liked to
exchange memos before sending them out and he didn't mind being corrected when
a message was unclear or contained errors in grammar or spelling (also in the
days before spell checkers). He was also very helpful in teaching me to be
clear. I think that being a co-mentor (how's that for a new word, Tom?) is a
great way to hone your communications skills.

As to publications, one of my later supervisors brought in a short monthly
publication called "Better Letters". You only really need to subscribe to it
for about a year, but it had many excellent examples of how to engage the
reader in a concise, business-like fashion. I'm also a fan of "Elements of
Style", but I don't follow any of these publications slavishly, since I
believe "perfect English" to be oxymoronical (had to throw one more in, sorry!
:-). I do tend to make my emails less formal than my documentation (you may
have noticed my tendency to overuse parenthetical comments and the smiley face
:-), but I hope that I usually get my messages across without sounding too
severe.

Caveat reader? (Whoops, another one!)

- Richard Chycoski


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 20 08:59:33 2000
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To: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@chthon.perl.com>
cc: Chip Christian <chip@princetonecom.com>,
	Elizabeth Zwicky <zwicky@greatcircle.com>,
	Nadine Miller <nmiller@cisco.com>, Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>, 
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Subject: Re: Improving writing skills 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:24:34 MST."
	<19001.948381874@chthon> 
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:58:17 -0500
From: William LeFebvre <wnl@groupsys.com>
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Tom wrote:
> No, that really is it.  There's no such thing as a "dangling
> preposition" in English.

Did you hear about the prisoner who fell in love with the warden's
daughter?  He wanted to ask her to marry him but decided against it.
It seems he didn't want to send his sentence with a proposition.

Sorry.....

		Bill



From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 20 09:31:16 2000
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To: Phil Temples <phil@temples.com>
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	Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>,
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	of "Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:26:36 EST." <3887373C.10E76F31@temples.com> 
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:29:52 -0700
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>Writing skills, in my opinion, become increasingly important as one
>progresses in one's career as a system or network administrator.  And I've
>observed that the subject of writing skills gets asked about more often in
>job interviews than in the past.

>I have found it very helpful to familiarize myself with the Outline "View"
>of MS Word, and to start every document in an outline format. I think it's
>probably one of the best (if not overlooked) features of
>MS Word.

Some of us, you realize, remain untouched by the Black Hand :-),
so still use things like the style and diction (etc) tools, or
spellchecking via vi or emacs.  Perhaps you folks have some suggestions
for prose-checking programs that don't involve using computers we
don't have?  I know I'm always writing a zillion little special-purpose
checkers in Perl whenever I write a book, such as for searching out
serial comma murders or if I'm off on a which hunt.

My university had composition requirements even for BS-CS types.
I agree that being able to write pursuasively, read critically, and
speak clearly is a skill critical in any environment involving
interactions with others.  You need to write your project plan,
pitch it to others, and research related work.  I know one company
who intentionally hired predominantly double majors in CompSci plus
some language (preferably English or a Classics major, but any
language was fine) for its tech writers.  But it's a skill we all
need.

The style/usage/English books most often consulted on my shelf are, 
in descending order of consultation,

    The OED
    Fowler's Modern English Usage (get both 2nd and 3rd editions)
    The Oxford English Grammar
    The New York Public Library Writers Guide to Style and Usage
    The Oxford Compansion to the English Language

The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language is very nice,
but not really part of this set.  There's also a small paperback
Dictionary of Confusable Words out there that might be good for
people who get "infer/imply" or "affect/effect" confused.  Still,
those tend to be covered in the other books refernced above.

To the extent that there's a difference between written and spoken
English, we see very little of the written variety, even in writing,
because one charerstically writes mail messages, news postings, and
even web documents using the same conversational structure heard
at the corner pub.  The best way to become better at writing is,
of course, writing.  But reading good writing is a fine step in
that direction.

--tom


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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:04:39 -0600 (EST)
From: "Marc W. Mengel" <mengel@fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: wu-ftpd problem
In-reply-to: <ylu2k9tefb.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>
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On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Russ Allbery wrote:
> That puzzled me for a while too.  From the wu-ftpd FAQ:
> ...[most of faq item omitted]
> Suggested fix: fix the client software.

Okay, I'll fix the ftp clients on every system on the internet :-)



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Yeah, right - I brought up ProFTP instead.

>>>"Marc W. Mengel" said:
 > 
 > 
 > On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Russ Allbery wrote:
 > > That puzzled me for a while too.  From the wu-ftpd FAQ:
 > > ...[most of faq item omitted]
 > > Suggested fix: fix the client software.
 > 
 > Okay, I'll fix the ftp clients on every system on the internet :-)
 > 

--	Brent Welch	<welch@scriptics.com>
	http://www.scriptics.com
	Scriptics: The Tcl Platform Company




From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 20 11:09:47 2000
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Nadine Miller wrote:

>  I wrote everything down, then revised once, and that was it.

Ah, I'm not the only person in the world who composes like this! :-)

Even in high school, when I wasn't into computers, I used to refer
to this as a process going on in the background. It really did seem
as though an essay composed itself in my brain without any attention
from me, and then all I had to do was put pen to paper - usually the
night before it was due. :-} Half the time I didn't do any revision
at all, even when there was a chance to.

My life has changed since then, however, and I now find that writing a
computing document/memo/plan etc. requires several revisions because I
need to read through it several times, taking a different audience's
point of view - too often including the political one :-( - each time,
before it can be released. This is even more stifling to the creative
process than worrying about such trivialities as who vs whom, but it's
extremely important. It's very easy to think that our writing is clear
because *we* know what we meant; it's much harder, and can be vital,
to step back and read it as if you didn't have the benefit of knowing
the thought behind the words.

(There, that's my contribution to the writing discussion. :-) )

> Language evolves.

It does. If you want a really good book on language which believes in
this and has some wonderful examples of how English is even now being
enriched by what so many people see as the devolution of grammar, read
"The Language Instinct" by Stephen Pinker. Its primary focus is the
process by which each human acquires language, particularly grammar,
but it covers a lot of linguistic ground along the way.

Ruth.


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From: pradeep@tradeit.com (Pradeep Subramaniam)
Message-Id: <200001201921.OAA24052@radar.vtidev.ca>
Subject: Controlling who can `su'
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:21:26 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pradeep@tradeit.com (Pradeep Subramaniam)
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Hi All,

I am looking for a UNIX utility that allows me to control who can `su'
to the superuser or an admin user and log it.

Currently, we have everyone logging on to our server machine as either
a generic user or as root and then`su'ing to the generic user. I would
like to keep track and control of who is loggin on and who can `su' to
these userid's.

Here is what I am trying to achieve:


Users	Member Of Groups	Account allowed to `su' to
	tier1 tier2 tier3	root	admin1	admin2
----------------------------------------------------------
user1 	Y			Y	Y	Y
user2 	Y			Y	Y	Y
user3 	Y			Y	Y	Y
user4		Y			Y	Y
user5		Y			Y	Y
user6		Y			Y	Y
user7			Y			Y
user8			Y			Y
user9			Y			Y

What I am looking for is a binary, substitute for "su", that will check
for the gid of the user and grant access to `su' to the requested
account. Ideally, it would allow this by retyping the user's password
itself.

I had heard about a utility called "lsu". This asks for a reason and
apparently logs it too. Does it allow you to control selectively as
described above?  Does anyone know of the location of the source for
this?

Thanks in advance.

Pradeep.

-- 
Pradeep Subramaniam,                    | 
Senior Systems Administrator    	| You can fool some of the people
Versus Technologies  Inc.		|   all the time, but not all the
e-mail: pradeep@tradeit.com		|   people all the time.
phone: (416) 214 7979 			|
fax:   (416) 214 9065                   | - Yet another brilliant philosopher
cell:  (416) 991 9625			|
*******************************************************************************


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 20 14:30:03 2000
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From: Theo Van Dinter <felicity@kluge.net>
To: Pradeep Subramaniam <pradeep@tradeit.com>
Cc: Sage Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Controlling who can `su'
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On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 02:21:26PM -0500, Pradeep Subramaniam wrote:
> I am looking for a UNIX utility that allows me to control who can `su'
> to the superuser or an admin user and log it.

I believe what you want is called "Sudo" (Super User Do!)

See http://www.courtesan.com/sudo/.

-- 
Randomly Generated Tagline:
"It's because I was young.  When you're young, you're supposed to do
 stupid things, aren't you?"             - David Bishop of Kodak


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 20 14:32:14 2000
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From: pradeep@tradeit.com (Pradeep Subramaniam)
Message-Id: <200001202232.RAA28224@radar.vtidev.ca>
Subject: Controlling who can `su' (fwd)
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:32:05 -0500 (EST)
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Forwarded message:

Thanks to all those who responded. The popular solution seems to be "sudo".
I have begun looking at this already. Thanks.

Pradeep.

> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I am looking for a UNIX utility that allows me to control who can `su'
> to the superuser or an admin user and log it.
> 
> Currently, we have everyone logging on to our server machine as either
> a generic user or as root and then`su'ing to the generic user. I would
> like to keep track and control of who is loggin on and who can `su' to
> these userid's.
> 
> Here is what I am trying to achieve:
> 
> 
> Users	Member Of Groups	Account allowed to `su' to
> 	tier1 tier2 tier3	root	admin1	admin2
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> user1 	Y			Y	Y	Y
> user2 	Y			Y	Y	Y
> user3 	Y			Y	Y	Y
> user4		Y			Y	Y
> user5		Y			Y	Y
> user6		Y			Y	Y
> user7			Y			Y
> user8			Y			Y
> user9			Y			Y
> 
> What I am looking for is a binary, substitute for "su", that will check
> for the gid of the user and grant access to `su' to the requested
> account. Ideally, it would allow this by retyping the user's password
> itself.
> 
> I had heard about a utility called "lsu". This asks for a reason and
> apparently logs it too. Does it allow you to control selectively as
> described above?  Does anyone know of the location of the source for
> this?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Pradeep.
> 
> -- 
> Pradeep Subramaniam,                    | 
> Senior Systems Administrator    	| You can fool some of the people
> Versus Technologies  Inc.		|   all the time, but not all the
> e-mail: pradeep@tradeit.com		|   people all the time.
> phone: (416) 214 7979 			|
> fax:   (416) 214 9065                   | - Yet another brilliant philosopher
> cell:  (416) 991 9625			|
> *******************************************************************************
> 


-- 
Pradeep Subramaniam,                    | 
Senior Systems Administrator    	| You can fool some of the people
Versus Technologies  Inc.		|   all the time, but not all the
e-mail: pradeep@tradeit.com		|   people all the time.
phone: (416) 214 7979 			|
fax:   (416) 214 9065                   | - Yet another brilliant philosopher
cell:  (416) 991 9625			|
*******************************************************************************


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 20 15:13:58 2000
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From: "Brian D. Silverio" <briands@bellatlantic.net>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: RE: Controlling who can `su'
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:10:58 -0500
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You should take a look at sudo.  It does all you 
want and more.

The URL is attached below

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From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 20 15:48:10 2000
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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:47:58 -0500
From: Robin Siddique <robin@umbc.edu>
To: Pradeep Subramaniam <pradeep@tradeit.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Controlling who can `su'
In-Reply-To: <200001201921.OAA24052@radar.vtidev.ca>
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On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Pradeep Subramaniam wrote:

> I am looking for a UNIX utility that allows me to control who can `su'
> to the superuser or an admin user and log it.
> 
> Currently, we have everyone logging on to our server machine as either
> a generic user or as root and then`su'ing to the generic user. I would
> like to keep track and control of who is loggin on and who can `su' to
> these userid's.

The two approaches I would recommend are either 1) sudo or 2) kerberos
instances.  Both are freeware and have been used successfully at UMBC,
where I work.

1)  Sudo is a "superuser do" program that can allow users to either
execute a single command as superuser or to sudo into a
superuser-priveleged shell -- it all depends on how you configure it. It
is very flexible and can be very verbose.  I have found it to be the
easiest way to give rights to various folks of varying UNIX expertise.  
The current maintainer of sudo is Todd Miller, and info is at:

	http://www.courtesan.com/sudo/

2) Now, approach 2 is not so easy if you don't already have kerberos
deployed at your site.  It does, however, allow very granular control of
access rights, on a per-user basis, if you so desire.  So if I logged in
as "robin" and needed to do some admin work, I would get tickets (by
entering the correct instance-password) for, say, "robin.admin"  The
robin.admin instance would have certain priveleges assigned to it, and the
ticket request would be logged.  You can always find out more about
kerberos at the MIT site:

	http://web.mit.edu/kerberos/www/


Overall, I recommend sudo, though, as ever, YMMV.


These are *my* opinions, but are available for rent at reasonable rates...
---
Robin Siddique			UNIX SysAdmin Specialist, UMBC
email: robin@umbc.edu		homepage: http://umbc.edu/~robin

PGP fingerprint: (resumbc99) 1024/5B5A87A
		 DA F3 7F 1E D3 75 28 9F  75 7D 6A 0C 10 8D CE 35



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Subject: Re: Controlling who can `su'
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Pradeep Subramaniam wrote:
> I am looking for a UNIX utility that allows me to control who can `su'
> to the superuser or an admin user and log it.

sudo. It works. You can find it at http://www.courtesan.com/sudo/
-- 
Jim Holthaus
jim@holthaus.com


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 20 17:20:37 2000
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From: "Jack Coats at coats.org" <jack@coats.org>
To: "Pradeep Subramaniam" <pradeep@tradeit.com>, <sage-members@usenix.org>
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Subject: Re: Controlling who can `su'
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:20:13 -0600
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check out 'sudo' at your local major mirror.

You will probably have to change the password for root,
and I suggest EVERYONE use sudo.  No one should use
the root password unless there is an emergency and you
must log in as root to fix a file systems or something on
the console.



From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 20 18:34:36 2000
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From: "Jack Coats at coats.org" <jack@coats.org>
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References: <200001201909.MAA05136@schooner.aoc.nrao.edu>
Subject: Re: Improving writing skills
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:36:21 -0600
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As an adult at work, I took a week long technical writing course.
I think it was called
the Shipley writing method.  There is a big book on it, pretty dry
reading.
The class was great.  This is no way to write a novel, but it
works
very well for techie writing.

The basics are:

- Write a bullet point outline.
- Write the summary.
- Write a section for each bullet point.

Organized like this in the final document.

    Summary - short, one or two paragraphs at the most!
    Bullet point outline
    sections in bullet point order - if sections are very long,
iterate on this
        method of writing within each section.

The logic is, most will not read past the executive summary.
Flowery
language is not required to motivate, persuade, or make effective
decisions.
This may be different in other cultures (USA technogeek culture
that is).

The bullet points will allow readers to find what they are
interested in easily.  Put them in a logical order for reading.
Write them
in any order that makes sense.

Each section should have the bullet point sentence or sentence
fragment used as the section header, and should stand out
(bold, underline, separated like a paragraph, or something)

Proof read even the most simple document.  Do it more if it
doesn't
read smoothly.  Keep organization simple and logically built too.

You can write e-mail this way, as well as reports, and even
books.  For the most part, unless I have a specific reason,
I keep it for LONG e-mail and memos, as I don't want to write
books! :)

... Just a few hints. ... Jack



From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 21 05:59:18 2000
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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:59:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Controlling who can `su'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.10A.B3.10001201834580.3086359-100000@umbc7.umbc.edu>
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On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Robin Siddique wrote:
> 1)  Sudo is a "superuser do" program that can allow users to either
> execute a single command as superuser or to sudo into a
> superuser-priveleged shell -- it all depends on how you configure it. It
> is very flexible and can be very verbose.  I have found it to be the
> easiest way to give rights to various folks of varying UNIX expertise.  
> The current maintainer of sudo is Todd Miller, and info is at:
> 	http://www.courtesan.com/sudo/

Just a quick note, since we use it here for a lot of things.  First, it's
a great program.  Second, it ain't only for superuser.  I think of it more
as "setuid do", because we have people who execute commands as the web
owner or the oracle owner or the e-commerce user owner.

Just remember one important thing: if you give access to a command that
can spawn a shell (vi is a good example), then you've given the user shell
access as the new uid, even if you didn't intend it.  Also, if they have
access to modify a script or program that they can run as the other uid,
they have access to become that uid by changing the program to run a
shell.

Summary: don't aim at your feet.

-Adam




From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 21 07:29:25 2000
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Reply-To: <jmorgan@dircon.co.uk>
From: "Jon Morgan" <jmorgan@dircon.co.uk>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: RE: Improving writing skills
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:39:55 -0000
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Jack Coats said:
> The basics are:
> 
> - Write a bullet point outline.
> - Write the summary.
> - Write a section for each bullet point.

I've been avoiding contributing to this thread, as my English 
isn't that hot, but I've also enjoyed it enormously and found it
very useful and informative.

I find when writing even long documents (such as 70+ page systems
management guides), this is the general way that I build the 
document up: do the headings, then the sub-headings and then "fill 
in the blanks". It seems to work fine for me.

		-jon.

-- 
Jon Morgan 							<jmorgan@dircon.co.uk> 
DEC Systems Specialist
JRI Europe Ltd
                        nihil illegitemi carborvndvm
                   [INHERIT ('SYS$LIBRARY:DISCLAIMER.PEN')]
                            ____________________



From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 21 08:11:40 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Mike Knell <mike.knell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Another Exciting Benchmark
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:11:28 +0000
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I'm sorry, the devil made me do it:

http://www.tuatha.org/~mpk/devnull.html is a quick hack (and some really
nasty HTML) soliciting information for my very own Useless Benchmark -
the /dev/null benchmark. How fast is _your_ /dev/null at eating useless
data? Enquiring minds want to know...

Mike

-- 
Computer Science System Administrator, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland
       mike.knell@cs.tcd.ie -=- http://www.cs.tcd.ie/Mike.Knell/


From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 21 09:05:49 2000
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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:10:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Leslie Dreyer Kalra <lbd@techiesinc.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Improving writing skills
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This doesn't contribute to the ideas on the organization of thought, but
it does clarify some grammatical things, and I get a kick out of it. This
came out of a newsletter distributed by the Kelly Education and Training
Center at AT&T Bell Labs, several years ago. I cut it out and have
displayed it on my various bulletin boards ever since (I don't have any
further attribution for the content):

How to Write Good:

1. Every pronoun agrees with their antecedent.
2. Just between you and I, case is important.
3. Verbs has to agree with their subject.
4. Don't use no double negatives.
5. A writer must not shift your point of view.
6. Join clauses good like a conjunction should.
7. Don't write run-on sentences you have to punctuate them.
8. Because sentence fragments are usually bad form.
9. In letters essays reports articles proposals and so on use commas to
mark a series of items.
10. Don't use commas, which aren't necessary.
11. Its important to use apostrophe's right.
12. Don't abbrev. unnecessarily.
13. Always check to see if you any words out.
14. In my opinion I think that an author when he or she is writing
shouldn't get into the habit of making use of too many unnecessary words
that he or she does not real need in order to put his or her message
across.
15. About repetition, the repetition of a word might be effective
repetition; consider, for instance, Winston Churchill's use of repetition,
which became a hallmark of his style.
16. Always aim at avoiding all alliteration.
17. Use parallelism to suggest the related-ness of items linked in a
series and also for achieving a pleasing aesthetic effect.
18. Creating any kind of document, it is important to avoid placing
participles in awkward places.
19. The use of the passive should be avoided by you whenever possible.
20. Always use a spelling checker to chek your spelling.
21. Last but not least, cool it with the cliches at this point in time.

I would also like to mention William Safire's take on usage, including the
who/whom debate. To paraphrase, he says that language is shaped by its
usage. Hard and fast rules don't work, and language mavens (such as
he) cannot dictate right and wrong for the language in the long term. Once
a particular usage has become accepted in speech, it's only a matter of
time before it is acceptable in written language as well. This is as it
should be. I would not be surprised to see the word "whom" disappear from
the English language altogether, perhaps even in my lifetime (the last
sentence is my own opinion, not Safire's).

<SOAPBOX>
Finally, let me say that I've found no substitute for a good, liberal
education. My degrees are in CS, but I took a great deal of liberal arts
courses in college, and I consider myself a "writer who hasn't yet written" 
(it was Janwillem van de Wetering who first called himself that,
I believe, before he went on to a successful writing career in his
forties, so there might be hope for me yet :). Being the daughter and
granddaughter of elementary school teachers who always spoke excellent
English certainly hasn't hurt...:) 

I don't use spell checkers because I find them annoying -- they think they
know what I'm trying to say, but they don't. I find writing exceedingly
painful, so I usually only revise once. I had a moment of disillusionment
when I wrote the second chapter of my master's thesis to have my advisor
say it was well-written, but too concise; I had to pad it. I don't
see how something can be too concise. I never did finish that thesis.
</SOAPBOX>

Congratulations for making it through all my nattering...:)

leslie
-- 
Leslie Dreyer Kalra	
Techies, Inc.			Computing and Internet
lbd@techiesinc.com		    Consultant



From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 21 21:49:12 2000
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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:48:59 -0800
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Bruce Hamilton <bhami@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Improving writing skills
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 m>
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My beef with nearly all tech writing is that it displays no concept of what 
is important; presumably because it is written by writers who have only 
limited experience with the system they are trying to document. So they pad 
with various fluff such as endless paragraphs about what various typefaces 
mean, and how to type "install".

Meanwhile, they don't bother to write an index, or produce only a 
mechanical one with no indication of where the main discussion of each 
indexed item lies.

Most software systems have a list of key issues that can be enumerated in 
two pages or fewer, but often you cannot find any mention of some issues in 
the documentation or index. I'd like to see a documentation project 
approached from the viewpoint of: first, you have only two pages to relay 
all key information needed for a Sys Admin to get your system working. 
After you've written that: OK, now you have six pages plus index. Then 20 
pages. Etc. No this is NOT an "outline" approach. It is a KEY DETAILS 
approach. I don't have the luxury of taking every $2500 week-long vendor 
course and spending hours reading and highlighting manuals.

Every vendor is guilty, but I'll pick a random example of my frustration: I 
installed Veritas NetBackup recently. It comes with six or eight 
similar-looking manuals of varying thickness, with non-obvious divisions of 
material between "Install", "Media Manager", "User", "Administrator", ... 
The "Install" is very thin, sends you jumping between manuals with no clear 
"return" statements, and doesn't seem to mention key facts like "you need 
to run tpconfig to set up drives and robots".

The part of the documentation that is most often missing is the part that 
sets the larger context of the product, discussing how the product differs 
from its competition and how its major components interact. Instead we get 
"optionitis" discussions with long, trivial, obvious verbiage about each 
pull-down menu option, and no discussion of the larger issues such as "What 
is the difference between the 'Exceed', 'XStart' and 'XConfig' icons?", or 
"Why is it so difficult to accomplish the basic task of 'make an icon to 
bring up a CDE login screen on host X'?"

I've become very cynical, and have reached the point where I refuse to 
spend more than about five minutes groping through poor indexes and manuals 
before calling Tech Support. After all, those folks are paid to spend eight 
hours a day dealing with their product, whereas I might only touch it once 
in two years.

--Bruce (Bruce Hamilton, Redondo Beach, CA)
bhami@netcom.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~bhami/



From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan 22 02:40:50 2000
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To: Leslie Dreyer Kalra <lbd@techiesinc.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
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Subject: Re: Improving writing skills 
In-Reply-to: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0001211144470.821-100000@ethel.techiesinc.com> 
	Message Apparently From Leslie Dreyer Kalra <lbd@techiesinc.com> 
	Dated Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:10:59 EST.
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 02:41:04 -0800
From: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>
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> This doesn't contribute to the ideas on the organization of thought, but
> it does clarify some grammatical things, and I get a kick out of it. This
> came out of a newsletter distributed by the Kelly Education and Training
> Center at AT&T Bell Labs, several years ago. I cut it out and have
> displayed it on my various bulletin boards ever since (I don't have any
> further attribution for the content):
 
> How to Write Good:
> 
> 1. Every pronoun agrees with their antecedent.
> 2. Just between you and I, case is important.
 
	I've see something very like this before.

	O.K.  I can't resist!  I'm sorry in advance to anyone
	who's going to complain that this thread is hopelessly 
	off-topic but I really have to share this.

	I have a file, ~/doc/rools.txt, that's migrated to 
	and been replicated among various computers 
	(and operating systems) for about 10 years now:

"Does" and "Don'ts":
Over a baker's dozen of rules for writer's
As published in Omni

 Potential Omni readers take note.  In a recent issue they
 published this exemplary set of suggestions for their
 contributors. 

Subject and verb must always have to agree.
Do not use a foreign term whren there is an adequate English quid
 pro quo.
It doth behoove the writer to avoid archaic expressions.
Do not use hyperbole; not one writer in a million can use it
 effectively.
Avoid cliches like the plague.
Mixed metaphors are a pain in the neck and should be thrown out
 the window.
Placing a comma between subject and predicate, is not correct.
Parenthetical words however must be enclosed in commas.
Appositives those phrases that elucidate some point should also
 be enclosed in them.
Consult a dictionery frequintly to avoid mispelling.
If possible don't be redundant if it can be helped.
Don't repeat yourself or say something you've said before.
Remember to never split an infinitive.
The passive voice should not be used.
Use the apostrophe in it's proper place and omit it when its not
 needed.
Don't use no double negatives.
Proofread carefully to see if you have any words or leters out.
Hopefully you will use words correctly, irregardless of how
 others use them.
Never use a long word when a diminutive one will do.
Avoid colloquial stuff.
No sentence fragments
Remember to finish what you 
It is not a good idea to write long run©on sentences and
 concatenate series of independent clauses with conjunctions and
 forget to set separate ideas in new paragraphs but keep going on
 and on.
It's bad. Some sentences are choppy. They are too short.
  
	And, to this list I had to add my very own:

Don't indulge in neologeny

	... thanks for you indulgence.

	(It really surprised me that 'locate rools'  found this
	old gem.  No wonder I have to keep buying bigger hard 
	drives for this old box!)

--
Jim Dennis                                             jdennis@linuxcare.com
Linuxcare: Linux Corporate Support Team:            http://www.linuxcare.com


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan 22 07:45:30 2000
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Message-ID: <007201bf64ef$afaa5400$0e01a8c0@coats.org>
From: "Jack Coats at coats.org" <jack@coats.org>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>, "Bruce Hamilton" <bhami@netcom.com>
References: <4.2.0.58.20000121205734.00acf100@mail.earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Improving writing skills
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 09:38:03 -0600
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Bruce,

Those are some great points in writing for purpose.  Have you
done a web page that shows this style in use, hopefully for some
product you were especially frustrated during the install or 
maintenance?

In a previous life (as a mainframe systems grunt), I helped 
develop a hypertext system (before the web) that customers
could use to look up problems and answers by keyword online.
Yes, the index and TOC were mechanical, but given no one
had the time to do it, mechanical was better than nothing.
As a submitter, you stated the problem (leaving out all the
'I have been having a problem can someone help?' verbiage,
instead, it was 'PROFS calendar sharing across sites',
and a few paragraph text of how to do this.

Anyone could submit an answer.  I use a rule of thumb, that
I would submit a question and answer the third time I received
the same question.  This was usually enough to have thought
the problem through, it was probably not a PBSAK (problem
between seat and keyboard, and I had thought enough about the
problem to ensure a reasonable solution.

The help desk loved it (they to submitted problem/answers), 
customers (once they figured out it was there) loved it - they
could do this without waiting endlessly on hold for the help
desk or being told RTFM (read the FINE manual ;), and best 
for me as it reduced the number of calls I  received 
significantly over time.

... I would like to see a good example of your suggested 
'key details' approach to writing a tech manual!

... JC




From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan 23 05:49:55 2000
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On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, Mike Knell wrote:

> I'm sorry, the devil made me do it:
> 
> http://www.tuatha.org/~mpk/devnull.html is a quick hack (and some really
> nasty HTML) soliciting information for my very own Useless Benchmark -
> the /dev/null benchmark. How fast is _your_ /dev/null at eating useless
> data? Enquiring minds want to know...

heh :-) About 3 years ago i wrote such a benchmark and ended up rewriting
/dev/zero (linux/drivers/mem.c) so Linux could do 4GB/sec on a 100 MHz P5
:) Went into the kernel around 1.3.70 or so, and now i believe Linux holds
the world record for dd-ing /dev/zero into /dev/null.

	Ingo



From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan 23 20:17:46 2000
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Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:17:26 -0700 (MST)
From: LuftHans <LuftHans@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: SUMMARY: brief email survey (finally)
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On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Adam and Christine Levin wrote:

> For question 2 (what mail clients do users use):
> 21 said Outlook
> 20 said Netscape
> 17 said any
> 10 said Eudora
> 2 said Lotus Notes
> 1 said cc:mail
> 1 said MS Internet Mail
> 1 said Pegasus
> 1 said PMMail
> 1 said Star Office
> 1 said Mulberry
> Almost everybody mentioned Unix mailers (pine, elm, mh, dtmailer,
> mutt) in addition, but the stress here was on PC clients.  Again, many
> people had more than one response to this.

I would think that the stress should be workstation clients. Where I just
left, 350 users and 12 sys_adm (for our section of the company), pine is
definitely in use, both under M$ and Linux. With Linux there are also several
people using mutt, whatever it is in emacs, and up until 31Dec1999 elm :).
There were also many who logged in to a *NIX server from their workstation and
ran *NIX clients that way. 

I hate to see a presumption that *NIX isn't used as a workstation. There are
at least a couple of dozen people living on commercial *NIX workstations in
their cube as well as the Linux workstations popping up everywhere.  Most of
them have been moved to Netscape for whatever their platform is, but the
emphasis has been to move to imap. 

And just since it wasn't mentioned, simeon is also in use there as well, both
on M$ and *NIX. 

ciao,

der.hans

# +++++++++++=================================+++++++++++ #
#                   LuftHans@asu.edu                      #
#            http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/              #
#   I'm not anti-social, I'm pro-individual. - der.hans   #
# ===========+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=========== #



From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan 23 21:59:44 2000
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From: Daniel Rinehart <danielr@ccs.neu.edu>
To: Pradeep Subramaniam <pradeep@tradeit.com>
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Subject: Re: Controlling who can `su'
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> I am looking for a UNIX utility that allows me to control who can `su'
> to the superuser or an admin user and log it.

	To offer another solution; "su2" is an aging utility, but should
do what you need. To quote the README:

su2 gives you the ability to masquerade with the UID of other users.  You
use [your] own password to switch.  Probably the biggest benefit of su2 is
that you retain your own customized shell environment.

	You can find the source (last release Sep 1995) at 
ftp://ftp.ccs.neu.edu/pub/sysadmin/

-- Daniel R. <danielr@ccs.neu.edu> [http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/danielr/]



From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 24 07:20:21 2000
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Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:20:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: SUMMARY: brief email survey (finally) 
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On Sun, 23 Jan 2000, LuftHans wrote:
> I hate to see a presumption that *NIX isn't used as a workstation. There are
> at least a couple of dozen people living on commercial *NIX workstations in
> their cube as well as the Linux workstations popping up everywhere.  Most of
> them have been moved to Netscape for whatever their platform is, but the
> emphasis has been to move to imap. 

I would never offer a presumption that Unix isn't a workstation.  My
workstation on my desk is Unix.  However, in my survey, my focus was on PC
clients because that's what we have here -- nobody but me uses Unix.

-Adam





From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 24 22:15:01 2000
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Subject: Re: wu-ftpd problem
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From: Amos Gouaux <amos+lists.sage@utdallas.edu>
Date: 25 Jan 2000 00:15:26 -0600
In-Reply-To: Brent Welch's message of "Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:54:43 -0800"
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>>>>> On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:54:43 -0800,
>>>>> Brent Welch <welch@scriptics.com> (bw) writes:

bw> Does anyone have experience with ProFTPD ?
bw> I note that the http://www.proftpd.org/download.html  page
bw> references the "1.2.0pre8" release, but the FTP site at
bw> ftp.tos.net has 1.2.0pre10 and 1.2.0pre9

We've been using it on our server.  At first I was tickled to see an
alternative to the controversial (maybe not so much now, but
certainly in the not so distant past) wu-ftp.  Then bugtraq started
getting littered with one bug after another on ProFTPD.  They
released fixes pretty promptly, but as an outside observer, it would
appear that this tore up the original development pretty bad.  The
web site doesn't seem to be maintained now at all, but the ftp site
you mention seems to have the most recent releases.

I hope they can hang in there.  Certainly was way easier to set up
than wu-ftp.

Amos




From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 25 01:32:17 2000
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From: "Bryan C. Andregg" <bandregg@redhat.com>
To: Amos Gouaux <amos+lists.sage@utdallas.edu>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: wu-ftpd problem
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proftpd was reviewed by the Linux Audit project and all Alan Cox could say
about it was ... "After review, we decided it would be easier to rewrite it
from scratch than to fix all of the security problems with it."

On Tue, Jan 25, 2000 at 12:15:26AM -0600, Amos Gouaux mailed:
> >>>>> On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:54:43 -0800,
> >>>>> Brent Welch <welch@scriptics.com> (bw) writes:
> 
> bw> Does anyone have experience with ProFTPD ?
> bw> I note that the http://www.proftpd.org/download.html  page
> bw> references the "1.2.0pre8" release, but the FTP site at
> bw> ftp.tos.net has 1.2.0pre10 and 1.2.0pre9
> 
> We've been using it on our server.  At first I was tickled to see an
> alternative to the controversial (maybe not so much now, but
> certainly in the not so distant past) wu-ftp.  Then bugtraq started
> getting littered with one bug after another on ProFTPD.  They
> released fixes pretty promptly, but as an outside observer, it would
> appear that this tore up the original development pretty bad.  The
> web site doesn't seem to be maintained now at all, but the ftp site
> you mention seems to have the most recent releases.
> 
> I hope they can hang in there.  Certainly was way easier to set up
> than wu-ftp.
> 
> Amos

-- 
                 Bryan C. Andregg * <bandregg@redhat.com> * Red Hat, Inc.

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From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 25 08:26:19 2000
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:26:06 +0200
To: "Bryan C. Andregg" <bandregg@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: wu-ftpd problem
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On Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:32:07 +0000 "Bryan C. Andregg" 
<bandregg@redhat.com> wrote:

> proftpd was reviewed by the Linux Audit project and all Alan Cox could say
> about it was ... "After review, we decided it would be easier to rewrite it
> from scratch than to fix all of the security problems with it."

Declaring this, while not puting up a list of "all" the problems is 
unprofessional, one could say.

So, plz put a list on the security problems that are not fixed by the 
latest version.

[ an I am not a proftpd fan in any way ]

------------------------------------
Yiorgos Adamopoulos <adamo@ieee.org>




From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 25 08:36:56 2000
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From: "Bryan C. Andregg" <bandregg@redhat.com>
To: Yiorgos Adamopoulos <adamo@dblab.ece.ntua.gr>
Cc: Amos Gouaux <amos+lists.sage@utdallas.edu>, sage-members@usenix.org
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On Tue, Jan 25, 2000 at 06:26:06PM +0200, Yiorgos Adamopoulos mailed:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:32:07 +0000 "Bryan C. Andregg" 
> <bandregg@redhat.com> wrote:
> > proftpd was reviewed by the Linux Audit project and all Alan Cox could say
> > about it was ... "After review, we decided it would be easier to rewrite it
> > from scratch than to fix all of the security problems with it."
> 
> Declaring this, while not puting up a list of "all" the problems is 
> unprofessional, one could say.
> 
> So, plz put a list on the security problems that are not fixed by the 
> latest version.

That was well over 8 versions ago and I have since purposely forgotten all
about ProFtpd.
-- 
                 Bryan C. Andregg * <bandregg@redhat.com> * Red Hat, Inc.

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From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 25 23:54:51 2000
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I asked the current maintainer of ProFTPD, <macgyver@tos.net> about its 
security
status and got this report back.  It sounds pretty good to me. 

Among other things in the forwarded note, macgyver@tos.net said:
>  I got a note from the Debian folks over the weekend letting me know
> that they're easily handling 140GB/day and seems to be handling the
> load quite nicely.

Apparently the Alan Cox audit was done a while ago when the original author of
ProFTPD had stopped maintaining it.  

The current website is http://www.proftpd.net/  (no longer .org)

	Brent


------- =_aaaaaaaaaa0
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From: "MacGyver" <macgyver@tos.net>
To: "Brent Welch" <welch@scriptics.com>
Subject: RE: ProFTPD security status
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 00:16:07 -0600
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Status: 

Brent,

I haven't seen Alan's review of ProFTPD...I'd actually appreciate it if you
could forward that to me.  ProFTPD has only had a couple of security issues
with old releases (primarily 1.2.0pre3).  The problem was that the original
maintainer of ProFTPD no longer maintained ProFTPD.  I was already an active
developer and contributor to the project and took over the project entirely.
In that transition is when those security issues primarily came to light,
and nobody was minding the store, so to speak, when people would report
potential problems.

Since I've taken over the project, I've done a reasonably comprehensive
audit of the code and added in some additional security features to ProFTPD
as well to help guard against potential security issues (see
http://www.proftpd.net/security.html and take a look at the
AllowFilter/DenyFilter directives as well as the CommandBufferSize
directive).  I think it's secure enough to run on most of my production
sites, and I try to be as responsive as I can when it comes to security
issues (I'm a bit paranoid myself ;)).  Not to mention that a major security
issue with ProFTPD that wasn't addressed promptly would be a fairly
embarrassing and high-profile issue for the project as well as me personally
(can't exactly go around saying I'm a security expert if I can't keep my own
projects secure ;)).

Rock bottom on ProFTPD's security was when SuSE and RedHat issued warnings
against using ProFTPD.  They've since put out updates that reflect their
renewed confidence in ProFTPD, and I think as a whole ProFTPD has a much,
much better track record on security than wu-ftpd or its kin.

ProFTPD powers a lot of high-traffic sites like Debian, RedHat, Perl.org
(and a decent chunk of CPAN), Freshmeat, Slashdot, Samba, and others that
just don't come to mind this second.

So to answer your question...I think the answer is yes, I would trust it.
If you have any issues with configuration, feel free to contact me, and I'll
try to work with you as best I can.  What platform are you running
ftp.scriptics.com on?

On a slightly unrelated note...you guys have done a nice job with
Tcl/Tk...I've been an avid user since the Tcl 3.x days.  Your book's always
a constant reference. :)  What're you working on these days?  Still using
exmh?  These days I'm definitely an Outlook neophyte...I wish someone would
develop an equivalent on Linux. :(

I'm also pilfering around the community looking for hardware/software
platforms so that I can better support them.  Do you have any pointers to
who I can talk to at Sun to see about getting an Ultra to work with?

BTW, in case you're interested, I got a note from the Debian folks over the
weekend letting me know that they're easily handling 140GB/day and seems to
be handling the load quite nicely.  I haven't gotten numbers recently from
some of the other high-traffic sites, but I suspect they're of a similar
vein -- I certainly haven't heard of any performance bottlenecks with the
exception of the inefficient mod_ls.  mod_ls is going to undergo a complete
rewrite post 1.2.0 -- it's currently very inefficient in how it handles
things (in some cases it does 3 stat()s per file...very yucky).

I'd be very interested in hearing your experience in migrating to ProFTPD --
especially on the performance front.

--
MacGyver (aka Habeeb J. Dihu) <macgyver@tos.net>
http://www.macgyver.org

> I am considering switching ftp.scriptics.com, which serves up over 30,000
> downloads of Tcl/Tk each month, from wu-ftpd to proftpd.  There was some
> discussion on the USENIX "sage" mailing list about security problems
> with proftpd.  However, those were based on Alan Cox's review as part of
> the "Linux Audit" project, which apparently reviewed an older version of
> the software.
>
> What is the current status?  I certainly enjoyed being able to install the
> software and configure it rather easily.  The fact that wu-ftpd changed
> their behavior of "ls" so it doesn't report directory names (gack) drove
> me away.
>
> Can I trust it?  ftp.scriptics.com is also www.scriptics.com and
> is certainly
> "my baby".  A failure would have a high profile in the Tcl/Tk community.
>
> --	Brent Welch	<welch@scriptics.com>
> 	http://www.scriptics.com
> 	Scriptics: The Tcl Platform Company
>


------- =_aaaaaaaaaa0--


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 27 07:55:41 2000
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:55:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: question about storage
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We've got a situation where we need to move from 200GB capacity to 2TB
capacity on what is effectively an FTP server for our e-commerce site, and
I need to come up with some proposals.

We're running Sun E250s and E450s, currently with D1000 arrays (12x18GB
disks in each).

I'm curious what you folks are using out there.  I'm thinking about the
Sun A3500FC cabinet (we're running SCSI now, but I'd switch to
fibrechannel for the bandwidth as well as arbitrated loop/high
availability).  Any experience with these?  What about EMC?  I'm looking
for direct connect, not NFS.  Software RAID is fine (that's what we've got
now with the D1000), hardware RAID is OK too.

Anything I should be looking out for?

Thanks a lot,
-Adam

Rutherford, NJ USA  Free speech online! _/
http://westnet.com/~levins/    ________/    FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC.
<*> __________________________/
-O /



From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 27 08:19:40 2000
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:21:01 -0500
From: "Grace F. Rohrer" <grohrer@sei.cmu.edu>
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Well, you can find anything you want on the web...

http://www.emode.com/


And as I run into sites like this, I always say...

darn! why didn't I think of that!


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 27 10:36:26 2000
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:34:37 -0500
From: "Joseph Boyer Jr." <Joseph.Boyer@gs.com>
Organization: Goldman, Sachs and Company
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Subject: Alternative implemantaions in Jumpstart.
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Hello folks,

I just a few quick questions, but first is a little background info.  We
are about to under go a large roll of Solaris 2.6.  Approximately 1500
client and 150 - 250 servers.  Most of the servers are out all ready.
What I would like to know is if anyone has modified the SUN jumpstart so
that it will either do a dump to restore of an image.  We are rolling
out exactly the same machines, all with the same hardware configs.
Jumpstarting and patching takes about an hour or so, hence my dilemma.
1500 machine to clone = a lot of hours starring at walls, which , in
turn, is very non-productive.  I have a set of cpio scripts that do disk
to disk cloning.  I guess I could use these to do this, but I am not
sure if "dd ing" and image would be faster.

Does anyone else think that there is a better approach to jumpstarting
such a large quantity of machines?  Has anyone attempted to do a dump to
restore of an image in jumpstart?  And what would be the best procedure?

Thanks in advance for any and all suggestion, ideas and thoughts!

Regards,
joe



From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 27 11:16:19 2000
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From: Matthew Crosby <Crosby@colorado.edu>
To: "Joseph Boyer Jr." <Joseph.Boyer@gs.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Alternative implemantaions in Jumpstart.
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On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Joseph Boyer Jr. wrote:

> Hello folks,
> 
> I just a few quick questions, but first is a little background info.  We
> are about to under go a large roll of Solaris 2.6.  Approximately 1500
> client and 150 - 250 servers.  Most of the servers are out all ready.
> What I would like to know is if anyone has modified the SUN jumpstart so
> that it will either do a dump to restore of an image.  We are rolling
> out exactly the same machines, all with the same hardware configs.
> Jumpstarting and patching takes about an hour or so, hence my dilemma.
> 1500 machine to clone = a lot of hours starring at walls, which , in
> turn, is very non-productive.  I have a set of cpio scripts that do disk
> to disk cloning.  I guess I could use these to do this, but I am not
> sure if "dd ing" and image would be faster.
> 
> Does anyone else think that there is a better approach to jumpstarting
> such a large quantity of machines?  Has anyone attempted to do a dump to
> restore of an image in jumpstart?  And what would be the best procedure?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any and all suggestion, ideas and thoughts!
> 
> Regards,
> joe
> 
> 


We (Not U. Of Colorado, I work for an investment bank) have done something 
similar.  
Rather then use a dump/restore of an image, we have an in house system
similar to jumpstart that consists of some scripts that:
-Boots net and newfs's the standard partitions on the root disk to a
 standardised formula
-slurps down a cpio image of the root disk onto the disk.  
-adds the needed custom stuff (ip addresses and the like).
-adds any host specific files from a seperate repository (when you set up
 a machine you basically use a tool that creates appropriate an bootparams
 entry and etc, and you can also copy and files that you want to override
 to a specific place)
-reboots

In addition, on bootup an rc script compares the contents of the root disk
to a central repository, updating anything that has changed and rebooting if
necessary.

We make sure that no data we care about resides on the root disk, so we
can just swap machines or whatever and leave the data intact (which is
on raid arrays or mirrored with Veritas or ODS)

We use semi-diskless clients, in that much of /usr (and basically all
applications) come out of AFS; this adds to the speed of boot but has
other downsides (performance at times, though AFS is caching so it's
not as bad as the old NFS diskless workstations, reliability if your
network goes down, so I wouldn't necessarily recommend this, but it
also does help keep down the time to boot net quite significantly.

Our experience is that this works quite well, and is certainly somewhat
faster then jumpstart; 15-20 minutes for a client, somewhat more for a
server at times depending on what else needs to be done and if a lot of
large disks have to be set up, and more importantly, it's completely 
hands off, so a floor support or junior SA can go around and do a lot in
one night and only page someone if it screws up.
The other big advantage is that it lets us be absolutely fascist in terms
of what we allow on machines:  We make a patch release every 4 months or
so, including the latest sun patches, and label it with an internal version,
number, engage in beta testing and the like; this way we avoid having large
numbers of different patch revs out there. 

We do revisit jumpstart every now and again, but so far we have decided
each time it doesn't really fit our needs, so we have stuck to the above
system (which does have it's downside, notablly in that it consists of
a number of not very maintainable scripts and has been patched enough to
have become a bit of a mess, obviously this is a software engineering 
issue more then anything else).





From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 27 12:32:06 2000
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From: "Jack Coats" <jack@coats.org>
To: "Adam and Christine Levin" <levins@westnet.com>
Cc: <sage-members@usenix.org>
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Subject: Re: question about storage
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:35:25 -0600
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>From what you describe the StorEdge A3500FC sounds like a winner to me.
You can hook up to 15 D1000's on it for 4.3T at a high end if you
use the 36G drives ... if you want the 2.2T, the same config with
18G drives will do it.

Sorry no experience with the EMC products.
----- Original Message -----
From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 9:55 AM
Subject: question about storage


>
> We've got a situation where we need to move from 200GB capacity to 2TB
> capacity on what is effectively an FTP server for our e-commerce site, and
> I need to come up with some proposals.
>
> We're running Sun E250s and E450s, currently with D1000 arrays (12x18GB
> disks in each).
>
> I'm curious what you folks are using out there.  I'm thinking about the
> Sun A3500FC cabinet (we're running SCSI now, but I'd switch to
> fibrechannel for the bandwidth as well as arbitrated loop/high
> availability).  Any experience with these?  What about EMC?  I'm looking
> for direct connect, not NFS.  Software RAID is fine (that's what we've got
> now with the D1000), hardware RAID is OK too.
>
> Anything I should be looking out for?
>
> Thanks a lot,
> -Adam
>
> Rutherford, NJ USA  Free speech online! _/
> http://westnet.com/~levins/    ________/    FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC.
> <*> __________________________/
> -O /



From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 27 13:00:13 2000
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From: Matt Harrington <matt@msg.ucsf.edu>
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i need a new mail/anon FTP/web server and i like the idea of OpenBSD. 
resources are limited.  i have a RAID device similar to a NetApp filer
which NFS serves home directories.  i'd like to use maildir to deliver
mail to home directories to leverage the fault tolerance of RAID.  plus
i hate it when users clog up /var/mail on my current server.  i need to
support pine and POP.  anyone have good or bad experiences with
maildir?  i'd use it with sendmail.  note: i've only just begun looking
into this.

matt


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 27 14:29:45 2000
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From: "Mark Boltz" <mark.boltz@transnexus.com>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: RE: Alternative implemantaions in Jumpstart.
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:28:31 -0500
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Hi,

[snip]
What I would like to know is if anyone has modified the SUN jumpstart so
that it will either do a dump to restore of an image.  We are rolling
out exactly the same machines, all with the same hardware configs.
Jumpstarting and patching takes about an hour or so, hence my dilemma.
[snip]

It wasn't completely clear from your message, but can I assume that you are
looking for an alternative to the custom JumpStart installations, using
rules.ok, sysidcfg and the other utilities, as outlined in "Solaris Advanced
Installation Guide"? Although it's not the greatest, it was intended to
perform large roll-outs of Solaris on identical hardware (although Sun uses
300 as an example number of machines, not your 1,500).

Also, have you considered Solaris 7 or even Solaris 8? They improved a lot
in those versions...especially Solaris 8. Just thought with all the patches
you need to apply to 2.6...

Mark



From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 27 16:25:16 2000
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:24:19 -0500
From: Theo Van Dinter <felicity@kluge.net>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Alternative implemantaions in Jumpstart.
Message-ID: <20000127192419.A23440@eclectic.kluge.net>
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On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 05:28:31PM -0500, Mark Boltz wrote:
> What I would like to know is if anyone has modified the SUN jumpstart so
> that it will either do a dump to restore of an image.  We are rolling
> out exactly the same machines, all with the same hardware configs.
> Jumpstarting and patching takes about an hour or so, hence my dilemma.

If you want to handle exactly duplicate systems, I'd make a disk the way you
like it, reboot off of CD and do a dd of slice 2.  You can then setup a
custom pre-install script w/ no rules file or finish script, and just do a dd
back to slice 2 on the client.

You could then go so far as to mount up the new root partition, modify the
hostname/etc, and reboot.

-- 
Randomly Generated Tagline:
"Turns out a severe caffeine deficiency and crushing deadline pressures
 have conspired to render me temporarily stupid."   - Larry Chin


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 27 17:40:24 2000
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:41:55 -0800
From: Michael Coxe <mc@com21.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Solaris 2.6 vs. 2.7 (was: Alternative ... Jumpstart.)
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On 01/27/00, Mark Boltz wrote:
>
>Also, have you considered Solaris 7 or even Solaris 8? They improved a lot
>in those versions...especially Solaris 8. Just thought with all the patches
>you need to apply to 2.6...

My experience was that 5.6 was Sun's worst release in ages. System hangs and
X problems that were never resolved, and like you state - patch city. 5.7 is 
another story - their most stable since 4.1.4u1b. Haven't experienced 5.8 yet.

 - michael



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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Solaris 2.6 vs. 2.7 (was: Alternative ... Jumpstart.)
References: <38908FBD.21C1DD07@gs.com>
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From: Amos Gouaux <amos+lists.sage@utdallas.edu>
Date: 27 Jan 2000 23:13:26 -0600
In-Reply-To: Michael Coxe's message of "Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:41:55 -0800"
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>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:41:55 -0800,
>>>>> Michael Coxe <mc@com21.com> (mc) writes:

mc> another story - their most stable since 4.1.4u1b. Haven't experienced 5.8 yet.

Rumor has it that 8, which was just announced, has been gone over
pretty darn carefully.  It will also be bundled with some
interesting stuff.

Amos




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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:24:25 -0500
To: "Joseph Boyer Jr." <Joseph.Boyer@gs.com>
From: "Todd C. Olson" <tco2@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Alternative implemantaions in Jumpstart.
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Hi 
Contact the sysadmins at the Univeristy of Buffalo Engineering Dept.
(UB is in Buffalo, New York)
They have a large jumpsart deployment and a lot of
experience.  Unfortunately, I don't have a contact.
I think they I remember that they have addressed your issue.

Regards,
Todd Olson

>Hello folks,
>
>I just a few quick questions, but first is a little background info.  We
>are about to under go a large roll of Solaris 2.6.  Approximately 1500
>client and 150 - 250 servers.  Most of the servers are out all ready.
>What I would like to know is if anyone has modified the SUN jumpstart so
>that it will either do a dump to restore of an image.  We are rolling
>out exactly the same machines, all with the same hardware configs.
>Jumpstarting and patching takes about an hour or so, hence my dilemma.
>1500 machine to clone = a lot of hours starring at walls, which , in
>turn, is very non-productive.  I have a set of cpio scripts that do disk
>to disk cloning.  I guess I could use these to do this, but I am not
>sure if "dd ing" and image would be faster.
>
>Does anyone else think that there is a better approach to jumpstarting
>such a large quantity of machines?  Has anyone attempted to do a dump to
>restore of an image in jumpstart?  And what would be the best procedure?
>
>Thanks in advance for any and all suggestion, ideas and thoughts!
>
>Regards,
>joe





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From: "Mark Boltz" <mark.boltz@transnexus.com>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: RE: Solaris 2.6 vs. 2.7 (was: Alternative ... Jumpstart.)
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Some more info and useful sites, regarding Solaris:

Solaris 8 was just announced by Sun. They have the release slated for
February 28th, I believe. You can now get the binaries for free, for both
commercial and non-commerical use, at only the cost of media, for as many
Sun's as you have. The media also includes Oracle 8i Enterprise Edition in
an evaluation/development license, as well as a package of the latest
servers from iPlanet (the Sun-Netscape Alliance). Details are at:

http://www.sun.com/solaris/binaries/

I signed up for the Solaris 8 Early Access program, which allowed people to
test Solaris 8 in the real world in beta. And from what little time I had to
play with it, I have to say, they've done a great job. I think it is poised
to be the best release of SunOS/Solaris ever. For details on what's new:

http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/whatsnew.html

I didn't find KickStart available for Solaris (I also didn't look that
hard), but it would certainly be a useful package to have ported/compiled
from Linux on Solaris. For those that aren't aware, several people at Sun
maintain a site where you can get precompiled packages of most popular open
source utilities, such as GCC, the GIMP and others, at:

http://www.sunfreeware.com/

DISCLAIMER: These opinions and information are my own, and not those of my
company. I also am not affiliated with Sun Microsystems, iPlanet or Oracle.
Although I will confess that I enjoy Solaris, I still prefer AIX over most
other Unixes for management and scalability.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-sage-members@usenix.ORG
[mailto:owner-sage-members@usenix.ORG]On Behalf Of Amos Gouaux
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 12:13 AM
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Solaris 2.6 vs. 2.7 (was: Alternative ... Jumpstart.)

>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:41:55 -0800,
>> Michael Coxe <mc@com21.com> (mc) writes:

mc> another story - their most stable since 4.1.4u1b. Haven't
mc> experienced 5.8 yet.

Rumor has it that 8, which was just announced, has been gone over
pretty darn carefully.  It will also be bundled with some
interesting stuff.

Amos



From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 28 09:06:33 2000
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From: Gus Hartmann <hartmann@cs.wisc.edu>
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On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Theo Van Dinter wrote:

> If you want to handle exactly duplicate systems, I'd make a disk the way you
> like it, reboot off of CD and do a dd of slice 2.  You can then setup a
> custom pre-install script w/ no rules file or finish script, and just do a dd
> back to slice 2 on the client.

> You could then go so far as to mount up the new root partition, modify the
> hostname/etc, and reboot.

	At my workplace, we copy entire disks as follows: format from a
script file containing the correct slice sizes, then ufsdump piped into
ufsrestore from the master disk to the clone disk, and then mount all
the filesystems of the clone under a mount point in tmp. Any necessary
changes can be made at this point, usually with chroot to ensure that
the change is only on the clone. Finally, to eliminate the host info,
we do a chroot'ed sys-unconfig on the mount point, making the clone disk
ready to be sysconfig'ed as soon as it boots. The sys-unconfig will also
halt the machine.

	The process has served us well; it takes between twenty minutes
and an hour on the various architectures we maintain. The mount point in
/tmp is cleared automatically at boot, and the machine can be brought up
fairly quickly with the Sun config dialogs - hostname, IP address, etc.


	Gus
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  http://www.upl.cs.wisc.edu/~hartmann/ | PGP Key ID: pub  1024/DCC499F5
___________________________________________________________________________
                  Do we need anything else, do you reckon?



From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 28 10:49:42 2000
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:49:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Summary: re: quick storage question
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I'd like to thank all who responded.  There was some good information
there.

One person mentioned NetApps, since they claim that they have better NFS
performance than directly connected boxen.  I find that a bit hard to
believe, considering that 100Mbit networks are 12MB/sec peak, and SCSI is
40MB/sec peak, but I'm still not really interested in NFS at this point
(yes, we could get better network performance by using a QFE card
multiplexed).  We may get a quote from them anyway, to see how the pricing
stacks up.

A few people mentioned the A5x00 series.  They're hardware RAID, which
would be a faster RAID than DiskSuite, but several recommended using
DiskSuite on top anyway for logging and/or for the ability to grow
filesystems.  Also, the 5x00 series are apparently not very speedy on
writes.  In our case, we'd have predominantly reads, so I'm going to get a
quote on these anyway.

The overwhelming consensus on EMC is not to bother because they are so
wickedly priced compared to the Sun offerings.  In our case, I'm sure the
EMCs cost would far outweigh its benefits, although I'll need to get a
proposal to show that on paper.  The other consideration is that we're all
used to running Sun's offerings here already, so deployment would be
faster and more sure-footed.

Finally, a very attractive solution to me, and one that I hadn't though
of, was to stick with current hardware.  If we simply upgraded from E250s
to E450s, we'd get 20 internal drive bays and 10 PCI slots.  With two
slots used for the internal controllers and one for another Ethernet card,
we'd have 7 slots for additional controllers.  With one controller per
D1000 array, I could add 7 D1000 arrays, use 12 internal disks, and get
eight mirrored 216GB stripes.  This is 1.7TB total, and while fibre is
100MB/sec, the combined transfer rates across 9 SCSI3 controllers is over
700MB/sec.

Once again, thanks for the help and info.

-Adam

Rutherford, NJ USA  Free speech online!_/ +++ Divide By Cucumber Error.
http://westnet.com/~levins/    _______/       Please Reinstall Universe
<*> __________________________/               And Reboot +++
-O /



From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 28 12:38:19 2000
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:36:38 -0800 (PST)
From: John Miller <miller@lclark.edu>
To: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Summary: re: quick storage question
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On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Adam and Christine Levin wrote:

> One person mentioned NetApps, since they claim that they have better NFS
> performance than directly connected boxen.  I find that a bit hard to
> believe, considering that 100Mbit networks are 12MB/sec peak, and SCSI is
> 40MB/sec peak, but I'm still not really interested in NFS at this point

Sorry to reply to a summary, but hey - it's a free country.  :^)

Our GIS users have observed this phenomena as well, we use NetApp space
over local disks.

Transfer time isn't the only parameter.  There's latency in head movement,
rotational delay, etc.  What makes the difference in a NetApp NFS server
is that it Anticipates -- it reads ahead so that when the program
asks for more data, it's practically coming down the wire.  Same for
writes, they are written into NVRAM and flushed as time permits.
Evidently your run-of-the-mill NFS server doesn't do either. (?)

Figure it however you like, the performance difference is there.

YMMV,
John Miller
Metro, Portland OREGON
yet another NetApp testimonial :^O



From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 28 13:10:59 2000
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:10:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Summary: re: quick storage question
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On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, John Miller wrote:
> Our GIS users have observed this phenomena as well, we use NetApp space
> over local disks.
> Transfer time isn't the only parameter.  There's latency in head movement,
> rotational delay, etc.  What makes the difference in a NetApp NFS server
> is that it Anticipates -- it reads ahead so that when the program
> asks for more data, it's practically coming down the wire.  Same for
> writes, they are written into NVRAM and flushed as time permits.
> Evidently your run-of-the-mill NFS server doesn't do either. (?)
> Figure it however you like, the performance difference is there.

I'm willing to believe it; I just said it's *hard* to believe.  Obviously,
if the box is seriously intelligent, there'll be serious performance
benefits over standard NFS.  I'm still curious, though, about it being
faster than directly-connected SCSI or fibre, especially if it's a box
with an intelligent controller and buffer cache on it.

-Adam




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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:43:34 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10001281225340.19936-100000@haystack.lclark.edu>
	from "John Miller" at Jan 28, 2000 12:36:38 PM
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> 
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Adam and Christine Levin wrote:
> 
> One person mentioned NetApps, since they claim that they have better NFS
> performance than directly connected boxen.  I find that a bit hard to
> believe, considering that 100Mbit networks are 12MB/sec peak, and SCSI is
> 40MB/sec peak, but I'm still not really interested in NFS at this point
>
	
	Why is that hard to believe? Transfer is a serial process and proceeds
at the bandwith limit of the slowest thing in the transfer path (perhaps 
memory, perhaps I/O busses, perhaps disk seek times, poorly implemented TCP
stacks, less than wire speed network elements,  probably a combination 
of all of these) and may well never approach the peak throughput of the 
fastest parts of the path. What you want to do is set up a test end to end
(from disk to application) and measure the speed that you really get (and then
find and try and correct the bottlenecks). You may end up finding that indeed
a Net App is faster than the solution you are considering or you may find that
you are correct and your setup has considered all the things (and more)
mentioned above and is indeed faster but you won't know until you measure the
performance. You may well discover you are getting substandard performance 
because of a 576 byte MTU somewhere in the network path, or TCP window 
starvation both of which have bitten me in the past on high bandwith high 
latency links (which admittedly isn't the discussion right here).

Peter Van Epp / Operations and Technical Support 
Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C. Canada


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan 29 15:40:28 2000
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To: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Summary: re: quick storage question
References: <Pine.SUN.4.10.10001281344490.14569-100000@westnet.com>
From: Amos Gouaux <amos+lists.sage@utdallas.edu>
Date: 29 Jan 2000 17:40:25 -0600
In-Reply-To: Adam and Christine Levin's message of "Fri,
	28 Jan 2000 13:49:22 -0500 (EST)"
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>>>>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:49:22 -0500 (EST),
>>>>> Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com> (aacl) writes:

aacl> A few people mentioned the A5x00 series.  They're hardware RAID, which
aacl> would be a faster RAID than DiskSuite, but several recommended using

Actually, unless something new was recently announced, the A5x00 are
not hardware RAID.  These are FC-AL units that come with a Veritas
Volume Manager license.  The A3500 unit is the hardware RAID device.

We've got an early A5000, which had a bit of GBIC fun, an A1000
(hardware RAID, single controller unit), and two A3500 (the non FC
units recently released).

aacl> DiskSuite on top anyway for logging and/or for the ability to grow
aacl> filesystems.  Also, the 5x00 series are apparently not very speedy on
aacl> writes.  In our case, we'd have predominantly reads, so I'm going to get a
aacl> quote on these anyway.

I don't know about the A5x00 writes.  Though, I don't know if you're
meaning A3500 or A5x00, in light of the confusion on the hardware
RAID above.

And yes, many do run either DiskSuite or VxVM on top of the RAID
LUNs created with RAID Manager (for A3500 or A1000).  This is called
plaiding, and as it happens, I was asking about that myself on
ssa-managers not long ago.  In fact, if you're interested in these
units, you would do well to subscribe to that list.  There are a lot
of very helpful folks on that list.

 http://www.eng.auburn.edu/pub/mail-lists/ssa-managers

Amos




From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 31 07:46:27 2000
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From: "Mark Boltz" <mark.boltz@transnexus.com>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: RE: Documentation systems?
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:45:09 -0500
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Hi,

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-sage-members@usenix.ORG
[mailto:owner-sage-members@usenix.ORG]On Behalf Of Benjy Feen
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 5:17 PM
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Documentation systems?

[snip]
The solution:
Make it easy for everyone to author and use documentation.

I'm looking for a documentation system that allows at least the following
capabilities:

1. Author/import documentation with great ease.
[snip]

I'm not sure if it would help you, but my brother has compiled a page on
content management software. I have not gone through it very much at all,
but perhaps some of the papers or products listed there could offer you some
insight on the product you are looking for. Personally, I'm not sure such an
animal exists yet, but I agree that a product with your specifications would
be very useful.  Posting to the list, in case the information would be of
value to others...

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/jboltz/CMSites.html

____________________
Mark Boltz
Sr. System Administrator
TransNexus, LLC
http://www.transnexus.com
tel. +1.404.872.4887 x 242
fax. +1.404.872.9515



From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 31 19:43:34 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Cc: greg.baker@amd.com, dtmun@best.com
Subject: Disk space management packages
From: Quentin  Fennessy <quentin.fennessy@amd.com>
Date: 31 Jan 2000 21:42:20 -0600
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My group administers almost 10 TB of disk space. Manually.  These are
spread over roughly 30 NFS servers.

I am interested in reviewing existing software packages that will help
manage this disk space better. I tend to like freely available
source-code-included packages but will be glad to consider commercial
packages as well.

Here are some of the features we are interested in
sorted from most to least important:

 Assigning soft quotas to directories/filesystems
 Alarm messages when quotas are exceeded
 Trend/History information per file-system or directory
 Graphical output
 Web interface

I've found 3 packages listed on www.freshmeat.net: xdiskusage,
spacewatcher and bcnu. I'd like to hear what folks think of these
packages.

I searched LISA proceedings on line and found a reference to an
Elizabeth Zwicky paper from 1989 -- and nothing else on this
topic. Tell me I missed something! I plan to email Elizabeth to
ask for a copy of her work.

xdiskusage
	http://www.cinenet.net/users/spitzak/xdiskusage/
Spacewatcher
	http://www.penguinpowered.org.uk/wayne/spacewatcher.html
Bcnu
	http://bcnu.sourceforge.net/

Thanks for your help. I will summarize for the readers of
sage-members.

-- 
Quentin Fennessy			AMD, Austin Texas




From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  1 00:33:14 2000
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Reply-To: <Lurker@naoj.org>
From: "Camron W. Fox" <cwfox@fujitsu.com>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Helpdesk Software
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:31:26 -1000
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Folks,

	I've been looking around for helpdesk software, but can't seem to find a
lot a availability for Unix platforms. A Footprints here, a Globetrack
there, but not a good cross section of the market (from what I could find)
to do a proper evaluation and proposal for implementation. I'd like to throw
it out on the floor and see what people out there are using. Any help or
suggestions would be appreciated.

Much Aloha,

Camron W. Fox
Project Leader for Systems Engineering
Hilo Office
High Performance Computing Group
Fujitsu America, INC.
E-mail:			cwfox@fujitsu.com
Phone:			(808) 934-4102
Pager:			(888) 733-8726


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From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  1 07:01:43 2000
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From: Michael Rogero Brown <brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com>
Message-Id: <200002011500.KAA21339@plhp049.comm.mot.com>
Subject: Re: Helpdesk Software
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 10:00:49 EST
In-Reply-To: <000001bf6c8e$bac82d20$8b03a8c0@naoj.org>;
	from "Camron W. Fox" at Jan 31, 100 10:31 pm
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> 
> Folks,
> 
> 	I've been looking around for helpdesk software, but can't seem to find a
> lot a availability for Unix platforms. A Footprints here, a Globetrack
> there, but not a good cross section of the market (from what I could find)
> to do a proper evaluation and proposal for implementation. I'd like to throw
> it out on the floor and see what people out there are using. Any help or
> suggestions would be appreciated.
> 

There have been some papers presented at LISA on various Help Desk tools 
available on Unix, some free.

Here, we use Remedy's Action Request System.  It has clients that run on 
most Unix platforms, Windows platforms, Macintosh, and has a web frontend.
We use it to track help desk tickets and a lot of other things as well.
While you can get 'canned' schemas with it, you can create your own for a lot
of things.  We use it to keep our inventory, track issues with vendors, keep
data on our projects, and alot of other tasks.  [ARS is a kind of fancy 
front-end to a SQL database]

Also, there is a group called the Help Desk Institute, which is aimed at
organizations running help desks.  They have a lot of stuff on best practices
and the like.  Think they are at www.hdi.org.  Might want to take a look at
them.

--
Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.  
Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.


From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  1 08:33:25 2000
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Subject: Re: Helpdesk Software
In-Reply-To: <000001bf6c8e$bac82d20$8b03a8c0@naoj.org> from "Camron W. Fox" at
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Our organization released its own internally-written help desk software,
called ReqAdm, at the LISA 99 conference.  It can be found at
ftp://ftp.intel.com/pub/reqadm

Unfortunately, at this time, I don't think source is available.  Platforms 
supported include: Linux, AIX 4.1, HP-UX 10.20, SunOS 4.1.4, Solaris 2.6, 
FreeBSD 3.2.  ASCII, Email, Web, and X11 interfaces are provided.

     - Jeff

>Folks,
>
>	I've been looking around for helpdesk software, but can't seem to find a
>lot a availability for Unix platforms. A Footprints here, a Globetrack
>there, but not a good cross section of the market (from what I could find)
>to do a proper evaluation and proposal for implementation. I'd like to throw
>it out on the floor and see what people out there are using. Any help or
>suggestions would be appreciated.
>
>Much Aloha,
>
>Camron W. Fox
>Project Leader for Systems Engineering
>Hilo Office
>High Performance Computing Group
>Fujitsu America, INC.
>E-mail:			cwfox@fujitsu.com
>Phone:			(808) 934-4102
>Pager:			(888) 733-8726
>

-- 
Jeff Boerio            \\    URL: http://www.arocknid.com/boerio/
Sr. Systems Programmer  \\    
Intel Corporation        \\   
boerio@ichips.intel.com  //              



From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  1 08:57:09 2000
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From: "Jack Coats" <jack@coats.org>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
References: <ximg0vdzizn.fsf@hidden.amd.com>
Subject: Re: Disk space management packages
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:53:58 -0600
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Quentin,

COMMERICAL SIDE
------------------------
    I know Veritas has some products that will do just about anything
you want in disk space management, especially if you have some $$
to put in it.
    Their stuff can manage anything from independant disks, to HA
RAID arrays with HSM facilities, including disaster revovery, and
data replication, and tape replication for off site storage.  Lots of 
good toys there :)

OPEN SOFTWARE
----------------------
    If you want to write some can use Big Brother for the monitoring
and to kick off actions (either prompted or automatically), but it does
not provide the routines for automated management, just the framework.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Quentin Fennessy <quentin.fennessy@amd.com>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Cc: <greg.baker@amd.com>; <dtmun@best.com>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 9:42 PM
Subject: Disk space management packages


> 
> My group administers almost 10 TB of disk space. Manually.  These are
> spread over roughly 30 NFS servers.
> 
> I am interested in reviewing existing software packages that will help
> manage this disk space better. I tend to like freely available
> source-code-included packages but will be glad to consider commercial
> packages as well.
> 
> Here are some of the features we are interested in
> sorted from most to least important:
> 
>  Assigning soft quotas to directories/filesystems
>  Alarm messages when quotas are exceeded
>  Trend/History information per file-system or directory
>  Graphical output
>  Web interface
> 
> I've found 3 packages listed on www.freshmeat.net: xdiskusage,
> spacewatcher and bcnu. I'd like to hear what folks think of these
> packages.
> 
> I searched LISA proceedings on line and found a reference to an
> Elizabeth Zwicky paper from 1989 -- and nothing else on this
> topic. Tell me I missed something! I plan to email Elizabeth to
> ask for a copy of her work.
> 
> xdiskusage
> http://www.cinenet.net/users/spitzak/xdiskusage/
> Spacewatcher
> http://www.penguinpowered.org.uk/wayne/spacewatcher.html
> Bcnu
> http://bcnu.sourceforge.net/
> 
> Thanks for your help. I will summarize for the readers of
> sage-members.
> 
> -- 
> Quentin Fennessy AMD, Austin Texas
> 



From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  1 09:05:20 2000
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On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Michael Rogero Brown wrote:
> Here, we use Remedy's Action Request System.  It has clients that run on 
> most Unix platforms, Windows platforms, Macintosh, and has a web frontend.
> We use it to track help desk tickets and a lot of other things as well.
> While you can get 'canned' schemas with it, you can create your own for a lot
> of things.  We use it to keep our inventory, track issues with vendors, keep
> data on our projects, and alot of other tasks.  [ARS is a kind of fancy 
> front-end to a SQL database]

It sounds like you're happy with the system you've got; nevertheless, this
seems an appropriate place to mention that tools which provide extreme
flexibility will allow you to create a highly detailed and functionally
comprehensive solution which has nothing to do with the job.  Developing,
deploying, and maintaining helpdesk/resolver software is a full-time job;
many full-time jobs, in an organization of any size. Software selection
isn't the critical issue; in my limited experience they all suck about
equally.  But if you have hundreds or thousands of employees whose jobs
are directed by trouble tickets, those people should not have to waste
thirty seconds per ticket making up numbers for all the metrics-critical
fields of dubious value. Personally, I've found that the "Estimated Time
to Resolution" field is easiest to fill out after you're done fixing the
problem.

Figure out a good way for the job to be done; on paper, preferably.  Then
use ARS or McAfee or maybe just some good sharp Cheddar to implement that
design. Don't let the software run your shop, no matter how cool it looks.


-- Benjy Feen | benjy@monkeybagel.com | http://www.monkeybagel.com --



From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  1 10:18:20 2000
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Subject: Thursday feb 3rd; LA, Calif. user group: ksh programming
To: SAGE-Members@usenix.org
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:16:39 -0800 (PST)
From: phil@bolthole.com (Philip Brown)
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Howdy,

I'm new to the various SAGE/USENIX mailing lists, so I'm just learning my
way around. Hopefully this is the appropraite mailing list. I want to get
something out quick, because the next meeting of our user group is
THIS THURSDAY!


The next meeting of the (FREE!) UUASC-LA UNIX users group is
Thursday Feb 3rd, at 7pm
We meet every first thursday of the month, near Los Angeles, California.
(technically, SW of los angeles, about 2 miles south of LAX)

Topic of this meeting: Programming in korn shell (ksh, aka POSIX shell)

If you have any desire to do "shell scripting", or if you already do
some shellscripting and want to learn more stuff, please come to this meeting.
It will cover some standard features of all sh-derived shells, and
some ksh-specifics, like the '$(( ))' built-in math functions.

Note that the POSIX-compliant 'sh', basically IS ksh. So if you want to do
"POSIX-compliant shellscripting", you need to use this.

This is not a wimpy "here is how to use grep" course. This is an
intensive 2 hour presentation taking you from "Why use korn shell?"
to
   "Here's how to built a multi-level real-time multi-system monitoring tool"


The location is Merisel Inc., 200 Continental Blvd, El Segundo CA 90245.

For full details, maps, etc, you can go to
http://www.bolthole.com/uuala/

I am putting together the presented material on-line, at
http://www.bolthole.com/solaris/ksh.html

Despite the URL name, all materials should work on ANY POSIX sh
implementation.


From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  1 13:15:23 2000
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Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:15:05 -0800
From: Phil Scarr <prscarr@greymouser.com>
To: Lurker@naoj.org
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Helpdesk Software
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On Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 10:31:26PM -1000, Camron W. Fox wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> 	I've been looking around for helpdesk software, but can't seem to find a
> lot a availability for Unix platforms. A Footprints here, a Globetrack
> there, but not a good cross section of the market (from what I could find)
> to do a proper evaluation and proposal for implementation. I'd like to throw
> it out on the floor and see what people out there are using. Any help or
> suggestions would be appreciated.

Well, we're running Clarify here.  It requires some backend database
(like Oracle) into which you load lots of triggers and tables and such.
Then you need to run the one moving part (rulemgr) on the box with the
database.  Like most of these kinds of systems, they require a support
staff to build them and keep them running.  We've got 4 dedicated people
to support this application for GE-Fanuc.  And I keep the HP machine
running.

	-Phil


-- 
                                                     GREYMOUSER CONSULTING
              System, Network and Security Architecture and Administration 
                          for Central Virginia (http://www.greymouser.com)
* S o l a r i s  *  H P - U X  *   L I N U X   *   W  i n d o w s   N T  *


From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  1 18:44:45 2000
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	Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:35:08 -0800
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:35:08 -0800
From: David Carmean <dlc@silcom.com>
To: Jeff Boerio <boerio@ichips.intel.com>
Cc: Lurker@naoj.org, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Helpdesk Software
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On Tue, Feb 01, 2000 at 08:33:10AM -0800, Jeff Boerio wrote:
> Our organization released its own internally-written help desk software,
> called ReqAdm, at the LISA 99 conference.  It can be found at
> ftp://ftp.intel.com/pub/reqadm
> 
> Unfortunately, at this time, I don't think source is available.  Platforms 
> supported include: Linux, AIX 4.1, HP-UX 10.20, SunOS 4.1.4, Solaris 2.6, 
> FreeBSD 3.2.  ASCII, Email, Web, and X11 interfaces are provided.

Which is unfortunate because while I'm quite impressed with the 
tests I've done so far, I won't be permitted to use it without either 
support or source.  :o(

--
David Carmean		WB6YZM			<dlc@netapp.com>



From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb  2 11:44:06 2000
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Subject: Web Server Monitoring Program
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:43:51 -0800
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Does anyone know of a good program that can be used remotely on a Microsoft
Windows 98 based machine to monitor the CPU load and do something like a
traceroute or ping to monitor the server's connection?  This is a Linux Web
Server running a customized version of an older Red Hat version and using
apache web server.  Any thoughts?  Money isn't really an issue if the
program is good.  The basic need is that since I am not monitoring each
server all the time, I need all of them to be remotely monitored by a
program that can send an alarm, or page me, or email me, etc.  Any thoughts?
thank you.



From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb  2 12:36:10 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: sysinfo and alternatives
From: Tom Reingold <tommy@bell-labs.com>
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My coworkers and I are addicted to sysinfo, a program that probes a
unix system's hardware and kernel and prints out lots of useful stuff.
sysinfo has gone commercial, and I'm thinking it's a bit more expensive
than I think it should be.  I'm debating between buying it and looking
for free alternatives.

	http://www.magnicomp.com/sysinfo

What do others do to get device information about a system?

Here is sample output from the previous, free version, running on a
Solaris 2.5.1 system:



	General Information

Host Name is             myhost
Host Aliases is          loghost 
Host Address(es) is      1.2.3.4
Host ID is               808d115d
Serial Number is         9245021
Manufacturer is          Sun (Sun Microsystems)
System Model is          Ultra Enterprise
Main Memory is           1016 MB
Virtual Memory is        2.0 GB
ROM Version is           OBP 3.2.9 1997/07/09 13:12
Number of CPUs is        4
CPU Type is              sparc
App Architecture is      sparc
Kernel Architecture is   sun4u
OS Name is               SunOS
OS Version is            5.5.1
Kernel Version is        SunOS Release 5.5.1 Version Generic_103640-24 [UNIX(R) System V Release 4.0]
Boot Time is             Thu Dec  9 23:42:36 1999


	Kernel Information

Maximum number of processes for system is              16250
Maximum number of processes per user is                16245
Maximum number of users (for system tables) is         1015
Maximum number of BSD (/dev/ptyXX) pty's is            48
Maximum number of System V (/dev/pts/*) pty's is       256
Size of the virtual address cache is                   16384
Size of the inode table is                             17345
Size of the directory name lookup cache is             17345
Size of the quotas table is                            26400
STREAMS: Maximum number of pushes allowed is           9
STREAMS: Maximum message size is                       65536
STREAMS: Maximum size of ctl part of message is        1024
Maximum memory allowed in buffer cache is              0
Maximum global priority in sys class is                6488124
Has UFS driver is                                      TRUE
Has NFS driver is                                      TRUE
Has LOFS driver is                                     TRUE
Has TMPFS driver is                                    TRUE
Has SD driver is                                       TRUE
Has FD driver is                                       TRUE
Has NFSSERVER is                                       TRUE
Has IPCSHMEM is                                        TRUE


	SysConf Information

Max combined size of argv[] and envp[] is                    1048320
Max processes allowed to any UID is                          16245
Clock ticks per second is                                    100
Max simultaneous groups per user is                          16
Max open files per process is                                64
System memory page size is                                   8192
Job control supported is                                     TRUE
Savid ids (seteuid()) supported is                           TRUE
Version of POSIX.1 standard supported is                     199506
Version of the X/Open standard supported is                  3
Max log name is                                              8
Max password length is                                       8
Number of processors (CPUs) configured is                    4
Number of processors (CPUs) online is                        4
Total number of pages of physical memory is                  131072
Number of pages of physical memory not currently in use is   51307
Max number of timer expiration overruns is                   2147483647
Max number of realtime signals is                            8
Max number of queued signals per process is                  32
Max number of timers per process is                          32
Supports File Synchronization is                             TRUE
Supports memory mapped files is                              TRUE
Supports process memory locking is                           TRUE
Supports range memory locking is                             TRUE
Supports memory protection is                                TRUE
Supports realtime signals is                                 TRUE
Supports syncronized I/O is                                  TRUE
Supports timers is                                           TRUE


	Device Information

SUNW,Ultra-Enterprise
    openprom is a "Open Boot PROM (SUNW,3.2)" device
    options is a "PROM Settings"
    cpu0 is a "248 MHz SUNW,UltraSPARC-II" CPU
    cpu1 is a "248 MHz SUNW,UltraSPARC-II" CPU
    cpu2 is a "248 MHz SUNW,UltraSPARC-II" CPU
    cpu3 is a "248 MHz SUNW,UltraSPARC-II" CPU
    sysboard1 is a "System Board"
        sbus0 is a "SBus (SUNW,sysio)" system bus
            cgsix0 is a "GX 8-bit Accelerated Color Graphics [cgsix] (SUNW,501-2325)" frame buffer
        sbus1 is a "SBus (SUNW,sysio)" system bus
fhc1
    eeprom is a "EEPROM (mk48t59) (mk48t59)" device
    zs0 is a "Zilog 8530" serial communications chip
    zs1 is a "Zilog 8530" serial communications chip
SUNW,fas0 is a "CCS compatible" SCSI
    c0t0d0 (sd0) is a "SUN4.2G" 4.0 GB disk drive
    c0t1d0 (sd1) is a "SUN4.2G" 4.0 GB disk drive
    c0t6d0 (sd6) is a disk drive
    rmt/1 (st4) is a "unknown" SCSI tape drive
    rmt/0 (st5) is a "Exabyte EXB-8500 8mm Helical Scan (EXABYTE EXB-8500)" SCSI tape drive


Tom Reingold
tommy@bell-labs.com                 http://www.bell-labs.com/~tommy
Bell Labs, the Research and Development unit of Lucent Technologies
Murray Hill, NJ, 07974-0636 US


From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb  2 17:53:16 2000
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:52:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Nadine Miller <nmiller@cisco.com>
To: Lurker@naoj.org
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Helpdesk Software
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Warning: Slightly rant-ish message ahead. :-)

We use Clarify here.  I can only say that it sucks rocks.

Part of our specific problem with it resolves around the horrible
schema and in-bound filtering, etc. that was originally built for
our in-house use.

But, as one of our sys admins put it, "Using Clarify for trouble-
ticket management is like using a big rig to haul a surfboard."

It's huge, *horribly slow* on the Unix side, has no text interface
out of the box, and does some of the most ignorant things wrt 
human interface that I have ever seen in my life.

Examples: macros that are not recordable; case numbers which have
no flag for sort order (e.g. the field in the db schema is TEXT 
rather than being something which can be set, because, gee, everyone
will want an alpha-numeric sort, right?); you can select a range
of cases, but you cannot perform any case management actions on a
range; it doesn't respect keybinds (e.g. bind emacs), NOR does
it respect the EDITOR variable.  The edit window automagically
takes over your mouse focus--so, if you run a close silent macro,
you have to go take a coffee break because you can't do anything
on your workstation while it runs.

We have been so frustrated by the UNIX version that a member of our
tools team spent many personal hours using trial and error to figure
out the SQL calls (because according to the Clarify support people
"the database schema is too complicated for you to understand")
sufficiently to build an 'rmail' like interface to use from the 
shell.

The scary thing?  Their devlopment team says it was originally
was developed for Unix and ported to the PC.  The UI does not
follow any "standard" UI, that I am aware of (certainly not PC,
X, or Mac).

The PC version is slightly more livable (better speed, similarly
stupid UI issues).

We used to have this home-grown (I assume) software we called 'RTS'
(request tracking system) with a curses front-end and an Informix
back-end.  I was a Porsche by comparison, until the 5-yo Informix
software crumbled under the task of 1500 incoming cases per week. 

Clarify's aquisition by NorTel is a lever to get rid of a 
competitor's product (and there was much rejoicing).
	
=Nadine=

----------------------------------------------------------------------
N. Nadine Miller		| Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.
ECS Sys Admin			|
Cisco Systems, Inc.		|

On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Camron W. Fox wrote:

>Folks,
>
>	I've been looking around for helpdesk software, but can't seem to find a
>lot a availability for Unix platforms. A Footprints here, a Globetrack
>there, but not a good cross section of the market (from what I could find)
>to do a proper evaluation and proposal for implementation. I'd like to throw
>it out on the floor and see what people out there are using. Any help or
>suggestions would be appreciated.
>
>Much Aloha,
>
>Camron W. Fox
>Project Leader for Systems Engineering
>Hilo Office
>High Performance Computing Group
>Fujitsu America, INC.
>E-mail:			cwfox@fujitsu.com
>Phone:			(808) 934-4102
>Pager:			(888) 733-8726
>
>



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb  3 06:19:51 2000
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From: "Mark Boltz" <mark.boltz@transnexus.com>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: RE: Web Server Monitoring Program
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:18:37 -0500
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WebTrends has a version of their software that can do monitoring. It also
does log analysis, link verification, and other Web site checks. They even
have a version for Linux now as well, if you don't want to use 98. I set it
up in my previous job to send an e-mail to my digital cell phone if the
server didn't respond in a particular period. In addition to using a
standard ping to check availability, you could also configure it to do an
actual http or https request. This allows you to not only make sure the box
is alive, as with ping, but that the Web server running on the box is also
up.

It's only problem is that it doesn't understand if some other link between
your monitor and the server is down (router failure or some such), so you'll
get a "false error".  Not that it's necessarily false though, because it
still is telling you something is wrong on your network.  You can also
configure it to page alphanumeric or e-mail to some account.

And it can monitor multiple boxes.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-sage-members@usenix.ORG
[mailto:owner-sage-members@usenix.ORG]On Behalf Of Eddie - MPC
Internetworks, Inc.
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 2:44 PM
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Web Server Monitoring Program

Does anyone know of a good program that can be used remotely on a Microsoft
Windows 98 based machine to monitor the CPU load and do something like a
traceroute or ping to monitor the server's connection?  This is a Linux Web
Server running a customized version of an older Red
[snip]



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb  3 06:56:08 2000
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From: Owen Steinert <osteiner@mcst.gsfc.nasa.gov>
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Subject: Tru64 UNIX, top, and SIZE
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Fellower SAGErs,

I am trying to decipher a problem with a colleague's code running on a DEC
machines running Tru64 UNIX.  The problem is this:

The C code, written to use memory statically (NOT dynamically), appears to
have a memory leak.  When the code runs on SGI IRIX, it's SIZE measurement
reported by "top" is around 70M.  On the DEC machines the SIZE measurement
starts out around 70M and grows constantly until the code finishes
executing, topping out around 250M.  The real problem is that this code
has crashed numerous DEC machines but runs just fine on the SGIs.

The Memory readout reported during executing on one DEC machine never got
over 380M/523M (in multi-user mode), and Virtual never went above
65M/1152M (35M of which seems to have already been there).

I guess I really don't understand what the SIZE measurement reports.  The
man pages for top say SIZE is as follows:

 SIZE The  size  of  the  task's  code plus data plus stack
            space, in kilobytes, is shown here.

But how could code/data/stack that fits in 70M SIZE on an SGI grow
to over 250M in SIZE on a DEC?

Would some kind and generous guru out there please enlighten me as to what
may be going on (wrong?) here?

Thanks!

- Owen

***********************************************************************
     Owen Steinert            Email: osteiner@mcst.gsfc.nasa.gov
 Systems Administrator     MODIS CHARACTERIZATION SUPPORT TEAM (MCST) 
***********************************************************************



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb  3 08:25:51 2000
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	"RE: Web Server Monitoring Program" (Feb  3,  9:18)
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On Feb 3,  9:18, Mark Boltz wrote:
> 
> In addition to using a
> standard ping to check availability, you could also configure it to do an
> actual http or https request. This allows you to not only make sure the box
> is alive, as with ping, but that the Web server running on the box is also
> up.

Do-it-yourselfers can also accomplish that task with a very trivial expect
script that telnets to port 80 and does a "GET /", or by having a script
call a simple command-line tool like webcopy.  (If you need a pointer to
webcopy, just ask...I'm sure I can find one).

Todd Williams                                    Manager, IT Business Systems
MSC.Software Corporation,   815 Colorado Boulevard,   Los Angeles, CA   90041
todd.williams@mscsoftware.com                                   (323)259-4973
geek  n. : a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usu.
includes biting the head off a live chicken or snake  -Webster's New Collegiate


From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb  3 09:43:17 2000
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HPOV runs on WinNT and does do most of what you are asking for and more.  It
may however, be a little over the top for just monitoring one web sever.  It is
usually used to monitor whole network environments.

--joe


Eddie - MPC Internetworks, Inc." wrote:

> Does anyone know of a good program that can be used remotely on a Microsoft
> Windows 98 based machine to monitor the CPU load and do something like a
> traceroute or ping to monitor the server's connection?  This is a Linux Web
> Server running a customized version of an older Red Hat version and using
> apache web server.  Any thoughts?  Money isn't really an issue if the
> program is good.  The basic need is that since I am not monitoring each
> server all the time, I need all of them to be remotely monitored by a
> program that can send an alarm, or page me, or email me, etc.  Any thoughts?
> thank you.



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb  3 10:02:53 2000
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[ Eddie - MPC Internetworks, Inc. writes ]
> Does anyone know of a good program that can be used remotely on a Microsoft
> Windows 98 based machine to monitor the CPU load and do something like a
> traceroute or ping to monitor the server's connection?

If you like writing scripts, you could possibly hook into the SNMP stuff
on the W98 box. I think that M$ decided to put SNMP monitoring on just
about all its current OS versions?
There are a few command-line based free SNMP distributions. The annoying
part would be that you would then have to learn to build a "MIB",
presumably.

> server all the time, I need all of them to be remotely monitored by a
> program that can send an alarm, or page me, or email me, etc.

and once again, there are separate free packages that be used to send
pages.

On the other hand, you sound like you just want everything done for you. In
which case, you'll have to pay $$$$$, and get something big and fancy.


From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb  3 14:01:40 2000
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From: Robert Hajime Lanning <lanning@kewltech.com>
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Subject: Re: Helpdesk Software
To: nmiller@cisco.com (Nadine Miller)
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Cc: Lurker@naoj.org, sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10002021736500.20304-100000@raptor.cisco.com> from
	"Nadine Miller" at Feb 02, 2000 05:52:07 PM
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Clarify -- originaly ran Mac/Windows was ported to Unix.

When I was at SGI tech. support back in 94, they used Clarify.
The port was using dialog boxes instead of windows (on IRIX), so if you
had multiple Clarify windows open you would stack the title bars at the
bottom of your screen.

---- As written by Nadine Miller:
> 
> Warning: Slightly rant-ish message ahead. :-)
> 
> We use Clarify here.  I can only say that it sucks rocks.
> 
> Part of our specific problem with it resolves around the horrible
> schema and in-bound filtering, etc. that was originally built for
> our in-house use.
> 
> But, as one of our sys admins put it, "Using Clarify for trouble-
> ticket management is like using a big rig to haul a surfboard."
> 
> It's huge, *horribly slow* on the Unix side, has no text interface
> out of the box, and does some of the most ignorant things wrt 
> human interface that I have ever seen in my life.
> 
> Examples: macros that are not recordable; case numbers which have
> no flag for sort order (e.g. the field in the db schema is TEXT 
> rather than being something which can be set, because, gee, everyone
> will want an alpha-numeric sort, right?); you can select a range
> of cases, but you cannot perform any case management actions on a
> range; it doesn't respect keybinds (e.g. bind emacs), NOR does
> it respect the EDITOR variable.  The edit window automagically
> takes over your mouse focus--so, if you run a close silent macro,
> you have to go take a coffee break because you can't do anything
> on your workstation while it runs.
> 
> We have been so frustrated by the UNIX version that a member of our
> tools team spent many personal hours using trial and error to figure
> out the SQL calls (because according to the Clarify support people
> "the database schema is too complicated for you to understand")
> sufficiently to build an 'rmail' like interface to use from the 
> shell.
> 
> The scary thing?  Their devlopment team says it was originally
> was developed for Unix and ported to the PC.  The UI does not
> follow any "standard" UI, that I am aware of (certainly not PC,
> X, or Mac).
> 
> The PC version is slightly more livable (better speed, similarly
> stupid UI issues).
> 
> We used to have this home-grown (I assume) software we called 'RTS'
> (request tracking system) with a curses front-end and an Informix
> back-end.  I was a Porsche by comparison, until the 5-yo Informix
> software crumbled under the task of 1500 incoming cases per week. 
> 
> Clarify's aquisition by NorTel is a lever to get rid of a 
> competitor's product (and there was much rejoicing).
> 	
> =Nadine=
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> N. Nadine Miller		| Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.
> ECS Sys Admin			|
> Cisco Systems, Inc.		|
> 
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Camron W. Fox wrote:
> 
> >Folks,
> >
> >	I've been looking around for helpdesk software, but can't seem to find a
> >lot a availability for Unix platforms. A Footprints here, a Globetrack
> >there, but not a good cross section of the market (from what I could find)
> >to do a proper evaluation and proposal for implementation. I'd like to throw
> >it out on the floor and see what people out there are using. Any help or
> >suggestions would be appreciated.
> >
> >Much Aloha,
> >
> >Camron W. Fox
> >Project Leader for Systems Engineering
> >Hilo Office
> >High Performance Computing Group
> >Fujitsu America, INC.
> >E-mail:			cwfox@fujitsu.com
> >Phone:			(808) 934-4102
> >Pager:			(888) 733-8726
> >
> >
> 
> 


-- 
/* Robert Hajime Lanning                             lanning@lanning.cc
** Trade: Unix Systems Administrator (Senior level)
*/
#include <std_disclaimer.h>


From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb  3 14:39:19 2000
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Reply-To: "Eddie - MPC Internetworks, Inc." <eddie@mympc.com>
From: "Eddie - MPC Internetworks, Inc." <eddie@mympc.com>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
References: <003701bf6db5$d5f562c0$092d1204@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Web Server Monitoring Program
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:37:56 -0800
Organization: MPC Internetworks, Inc.
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I think I am going to go with WhatsUp® Gold 4.0 from www.ipswitch.com

Eddie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eddie - MPC Internetworks, Inc." <eddie@mympc.com>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 11:43 AM
Subject: Web Server Monitoring Program


Does anyone know of a good program that can be used remotely on a Microsoft
Windows 98 based machine to monitor the CPU load and do something like a
traceroute or ping to monitor the server's connection?  This is a Linux Web
Server running a customized version of an older Red Hat version and using
apache web server.  Any thoughts?  Money isn't really an issue if the
program is good.  The basic need is that since I am not monitoring each
server all the time, I need all of them to be remotely monitored by a
program that can send an alarm, or page me, or email me, etc.  Any thoughts?
thank you.



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb  3 23:23:08 2000
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To: "Eddie - MPC Internetworks, Inc." <eddie@mympc.com>
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Big Brother has several client pieces.  I know it has NT and Novell, 
but I'm not sure about the other part of the Win family (and of course
every flavor of UNIX).  

We are looking at rolling this out.  It will at least do the ping
connection for any device on your network.  The paging engine is
very customizable as well.

http://bb4.com/

or check out 
http://www.freshmeat.net/appindex/console/monitoring.html
for some other free options

"Eddie - MPC Internetworks, Inc." wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know of a good program that can be used remotely on a Microsoft
> Windows 98 based machine to monitor the CPU load and do something like a
> traceroute or ping to monitor the server's connection?  This is a Linux Web
> Server running a customized version of an older Red Hat version and using
> apache web server.  Any thoughts?  Money isn't really an issue if the
> program is good.  The basic need is that since I am not monitoring each
> server all the time, I need all of them to be remotely monitored by a
> program that can send an alarm, or page me, or email me, etc.  Any thoughts?
> thank you.


From sage-members-owner  Sat Feb  5 14:44:33 2000
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	Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:43:56 -0500
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:43:55 -0500
From: Joseph S D Yao <jsdy@tux.org>
To: Owen Steinert <osteiner@mcst.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Tru64 UNIX, top, and SIZE
Message-ID: <20000205174355.B4626@gwyn.tux.org>
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On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 09:55:58AM -0500, Owen Steinert wrote:
...
> The C code, written to use memory statically (NOT dynamically), appears to
> have a memory leak.  When the code runs on SGI IRIX, it's SIZE measurement
> reported by "top" is around 70M.  On the DEC machines the SIZE measurement
> starts out around 70M and grows constantly until the code finishes
> executing, topping out around 250M.  The real problem is that this code
> has crashed numerous DEC machines but runs just fine on the SGIs.
> 
> The Memory readout reported during executing on one DEC machine never got
> over 380M/523M (in multi-user mode), and Virtual never went above
> 65M/1152M (35M of which seems to have already been there).
> 
> I guess I really don't understand what the SIZE measurement reports.  The
> man pages for top say SIZE is as follows:
> 
>  SIZE The  size  of  the  task's  code plus data plus stack
>             space, in kilobytes, is shown here.
> 
> But how could code/data/stack that fits in 70M SIZE on an SGI grow
> to over 250M in SIZE on a DEC?

You don't say what version of Compaq Tru64 Unix [although it's only
recently that Digital Unix has been re-named that], what patches have
been applied, and what libraries were used.

I would suspect that this is somewhere between 4.0D and 5.0, that the
program uses X11 libraries, and that the memory leak patch [which is
somewhere in my stack of things to get to] has not yet been applied.

-- 
/*********************************************************************\
**
** Joe Yao				jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao
**
\*********************************************************************/


From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb  7 07:23:35 2000
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From: Julao Arlyne-JULAO1 <julao1@email.mot.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: Helpdesk Software
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:23:15 -0600 
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I will agree with Michael's recomendation.  Here, we also use Remedy's
Action
Request System.  It works really well and for the past 6+ years of its use,
we have had very little problems with the application.  Check it out at:

	http://www.remedy.com

I've also checked out solutions for HDI - I'm sure you'll find them useful.

Arlyne G. Julao
julao1@email.mot.com
(847) 632-6685

Motorola
Manager, NSS Call Center Infrastructure Team
Project Manager - Global Remedy and MARS Deployment


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Rogero Brown [mailto:brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 9:01 AM
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Helpdesk Software

There have been some papers presented at LISA on various Help Desk tools 
available on Unix, some free.

Here, we use Remedy's Action Request System.  It has clients that run on 
most Unix platforms, Windows platforms, Macintosh, and has a web frontend.
We use it to track help desk tickets and a lot of other things as well.
While you can get 'canned' schemas with it, you can create your own for a
lot
of things.  We use it to keep our inventory, track issues with vendors, keep
data on our projects, and alot of other tasks.  [ARS is a kind of fancy 
front-end to a SQL database]

Also, there is a group called the Help Desk Institute, which is aimed at
organizations running help desks.  They have a lot of stuff on best
practices
and the like.  Think they are at www.hdi.org.  Might want to take a look at
them.

--
Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for
myself.  
Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.


From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb  7 11:35:24 2000
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My main caveat about Remedy ARS is that it's really a toolbox for building a
ticket system that does exactly what you want; it is not itself a ticket
system that does exactly what you want. My previous employer knew that, we
customized it for our purposes, and we loved it. My current employer bought
it thinking that they could unwrap the box and install the software, and it
would immediately improve our help desk staff's lives. It didn't, and so it
languished with a bad name for literally years until they had the resources
to have someone sit down and customize it for our purposes. Since they did
that, it's been working great, and everyone here loves it too. (I started at
this job shortly after the guy who ended up doing the customization work.)

So, Remedy ARS will do what you want, but it's not plug-and-play; as long as
you're aware of that, and have the staff to set someone on it for a month or
two before you expect to get much out of it, I think you'll like it. Once
you've gotten it set up the way you like it, it's very low-maintenance --
it's just that ramp-up period where you have to design and implement the
details of how your staff will use it to do their jobs.

                                      -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com)


From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb  9 11:52:15 2000
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From: Sabrina Downard <viv@ziggurat.org>
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Is there anyone out there who is dying for an opportunity to help someone
else learn how to analyze a Solaris 7 kernel core dump?  8-)

I've got the Panic! book and am finding that its Solaris 2.3 information
isn't quite as helpful with Sol7 as I was hoping I'd find it, as chicken
as I am to delve into this.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or pointers.  :)


-- 
sabrina  downard ~ Madness takes its toll.  Please have exact change.
viv@ziggurat.org ~ Soapmaker's Resources: http://www.ziggurat.org/soap/

"You know, the weirdest thing happened to me the other day. I happened
 to turn on MTV, and they were playing a music video!" -- "Weird Al" Yankovic



From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb  9 16:31:42 2000
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Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:29:45 +0000
From: Jose Antonio Chagas Machado <jose.machado@co.ip.pt>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Stickers to identify servers
Message-ID: <20000210002945.A1172@morcego.ip.pt>
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Hi,

We grow, and then, I have more than 100 servers in our computer room, 8 machines per rack.

When you have new people working with you and they need to identify the hardware, you have a problem. Does anyone deal with this?

The ideia is to put all data related to servers (host, IP address, services running) in a database and then use an application to print labels to put on each machine.


Thanks.

-- 
Jose Machado <jose.machado@co.ip.pt>
IP - Engenharia de Rede <http://ip.pt/>
Pr. Duque de Saldanha, 1, 5º - 1050-094 LISBOA - PORTUGAL
Tel (+351) 213 166 756 - Fax (+351) 213 166 701


From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb  9 19:48:31 2000
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From: lindsey@acm.org (Mark R. Lindsey)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:58:24 -0500
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To: Jose Antonio Chagas Machado <jose.machado@co.ip.pt>
Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers
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: We grow, and then, I have more than 100 servers in our computer room,
: 8 machines per rack.
:
: When you have new people working with you and they need to identify
: the hardware, you have a problem. Does anyone deal with this?

Every organization has to, at some point in its growth.

: The ideia is to put all data related to servers (host, IP address,
: services running) in a database and then use an application to print
: labels to put on each machine.

Building the database is the fun part. 

The real work is in the tedium of indexing every thing. In my previous
position at an ISP, our number of machines was growing, but our number
of cables was growing faster. Based on some reading, I organized 
a Very Simple physical-plant labeling scheme, and made some simple
paper forms to keep track of it all. (We were on a real time budget.)

It works like this: in an organization, you have a four distinct sets:
	Devices: (anything with any logic)
	Frames (connector with no logic)
	Cables
	Telecommunication Closets (any room)

Just start numbering each set somewhere, and count up from there. So
you might start with Cable 1, then Cable 2, then Cable 3, &c. And you'd
have Device 1, and Device 2, on so on. The point here is that you just
have to uniquely identify each device; if you want to make some 
clever system (like Device 1206 means a device in rack 12) then you're
free to do that.

Anyway, for the full details of this excruciatingly-simple system, 
check out 
	http://vielle.datasys.net/cpd/
It includes some provisions for labeling.

...

And on the topic of labels: I've found that the Brother EZ-Touch
laminating labeler makes a nice unit for a small operation. Those who
read it will note that my labelling assumes that arbitrarily-long labels
can be used (e.g., `C12-F1Pr9,10-D9Pt3', describing Cable 12 which runs
from Frame 1 Pairs 9 and 10 to Port 3 on Device 9).








From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb  9 20:41:15 2000
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Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 22:40:56 -0600
From: Jim Holthaus <jim@holthaus.com>
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To: Jose Antonio Chagas Machado <jose.machado@co.ip.pt>
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Jose Antonio Chagas Machado wrote:
> When you have new people working with you and they need to identify the hardware, you have a problem. Does anyone deal with this?
> 
> The ideia is to put all data related to servers (host, IP address, services running) in a database and then use an application to print labels to put on each machine.

I currently work in a large shop with multiple data centers. All told,
there are more than 200 servers. We put stickers on each server with its
hostname, its IP address and its function. This allows admins to find
the servers easily, but also allows other groups to easily find the
servers, too.
-- 
Jim Holthaus
jim@holthaus.com


From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 10 07:46:10 2000
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Our big machine room has only about 50 boxen.  (Hey, those Crays take up a lot
of space! :-)

It also runs operatorless; we have a contract with on-site folk who are
first-line troubleshooters to handle our day-to-day problems.  So having people
be able to find our machines is critical.

On the front of each production box is a a stick-on clear front envelope. In
the envelope is a piece of paper folded in such a way that the name of the
machine and any 'nicknames' are prominent.  The rest of the paper, when
unfolded, lists:
 a) the machine's functions 
 b) the contact/responsible people for the machine 
 c) the machine's location in the room 
 d) location of peripherals
 e) how to powercycle, shutdown and power off, and power on the system &
peripherals
 f) any special notes (ie. "Please do not power cycle or power off the running
server except in case of fire. Make sure someone listed below has told you it's
safe to touch the machine before doing so.")

The sheets are also available in a binder in a central location, and we're
working to put match the physical location to grids on a CAD-created map of the
machine room.

e.
----------------------------------------------------------------
     ecf@psc.edu     Esther Filderman    moose+@cmu.edu
        Senior System Mangler, News & AFS Dominatrix  
               Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center




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To: Jose Antonio Chagas Machado <jose.machado@co.ip.pt>
CC: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers
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We've 'encoded' the function into the machine's hostname.  So NFS1-XXX are the
nfs servers, SAPAPP1-XXX run the SAP applications, SAPDB1-XXX run the SAP
databases, etc.  Our compute servers are <vendor>CPU1-XXX, such as hpcpu1 or
suncpu7.

NT servers, run by another group, elected to use <location><serial number>,
where location is the international airport code for the city the server is
located in.  They can't ever remember whether LAX1 is the file server or
database machine :-).

All computers except laptops in the company get a label on the CPU and the
monitor.  In addition to the bar-code asset tag, we use one of those
'clickety-click' label makers with 1" tape in bright blue.  It's easy to read
from several feet away and seems to be more durable than the brother.  Visit
http://www.acme.com/labelmaker/ to see how it looks.

Jose Antonio Chagas Machado wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> We grow, and then, I have more than 100 servers in our computer room, 8 machines per rack.
> 
> When you have new people working with you and they need to identify the hardware, you have a problem. Does anyone deal with this?


Regards,
-- 
Paul R. Joslin            paul.joslin@weirdness.com            +1 513 576 2012
"Sometimes, politics kind of make sense. The folks who campaign against
handguns are typically the sort that most people would like to shoot if one
were handy."  freaks@fugly.net


From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 10 08:18:15 2000
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From: Michael Rogero Brown <brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com>
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Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers
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	from "Jose Antonio Chagas Machado" at Feb 10, 100 12:29 (midnight)
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Like others, we use the Brother P-touch labeling systems (and there are others)
to make labels.  Minimum we put the hostname on it.  Sometime we will also
put its function (Exchange Server 1, SMS server, etc), and rarely IP address.
--
Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.  
Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.


From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 10 11:15:37 2000
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From: Jonathan Hoefker <jhoefker@yahoo.com>
Subject: PVCS 6.0 performance on Solaris 2.6
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I was wondering if anyone out there has had any issues
with PVCS 6.0 performance running on Solaris 2.6.  We
have an Ultra 1 serving as our archive source and pvcs
binary repository, serving everything out via NFS.

Operations such as tagging and migration are
significantly faster (500-600 operations/min vs.
50-150 operations/min) locally on the Ultra 1 than on
the E3000s that everybody works on.  Naturally the
thought went to NFS problems.

After doing some investigation, the netowrk didn't
appear to be a problem (100mb switched between all the
servers).  The disks were setup poorly, but didn't
affect local performance.  DNLC hit rate is around
75%, but there are a lot of longnames too.  The server
never has a load on it and memory isn't a problem
either (no sr's in vmstat ever).  nfsd is running with
256 threads.

While there are things that are evidently in need of
some amount of fixing, all the smaller pieces don't
really add up to why there is such a performance
discrepency between local and remote.  We have had
PVCS consultants out several times and they have been
about as useful as dirt.

I guess I'm wondering if any of you have dealt with
PVCS 6.0 in a similar environment and what you have
done to achieve acceptable performance results.

Jonathan Hoefker
Systems Administrator - FedEx
Orlando, Fl
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com


From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 10 11:27:37 2000
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From: DL Hilton <hilton@entelos.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: Stickers to identify servers
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:26:50 -0800
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You said "The ideia is to put all data related to servers (host, IP address,
services running) in a database and then use an application to print labels
to put on each machine."

We are much smaller - currently 20 or so servers in a mixed bag of Linux,
Solaris, NT and Macintosh. We label each Server with the name of someone
famous in the fields of medicine, biology or chemistry (we do physiological
modeling).  The information, server name, IP address, function, location,
and the individual responsible for the machines well being, are published on
our intranet.  We only put the machine name on the label.  This allows us to
move addresses, locations and subnets without the physical hassle of redoing
labels.  Our rapid growth, the time requirements of bringing up new systems,
maintenance, etc. keeps the two of us in IT really jumping.  By posting what
we are doing on our intranet we avoid a bunch of verbal and email
explanations about our goals, timelines and tasks.

DL Hilton
M.I.T.
Entelos, Inc.
4040 Campbell Avenue
Menlo Park, CA 94025

"Without an Inner Hell we'd need to tell it how to activate." - DL Hilton


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From: "Mark Boltz" <mark.boltz@transnexus.com>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: RE: Stickers to identify servers
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:27:23 -0500
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We're a small shop, so this hasn't been a big issue, but it does come up.
We currently use a Brother label maker to label the boxes. Although I've
taken the approach of just labeling the box with the hostname (not even
necessarily the FQDN).  IP address information, and other details on the box
are kept in separate documentation (currently paper, although I'm working on
a database for "patient histories", as I call them). My reasoning, however
unsound it may be, is that some of our boxes are at a co-location facility.
Should someone walk by while we're working on the equipment there, or even
here, they won't get information about our network architecture or systems
to later use against us in an attack; at the same time it still provides
enough information for the "good guys" to figure out what's going on.

I recognize that this may seem like security through obscurity, which can be
a bad thing. But on the other hand, our network uses address translation,
firewalls, and physical LAN segments to isolate components or potential
damage. By including that information, as well as the purpose of each
hub/switch and the like, any passers-by at the co-lo can get a lot more
information very easily than I might want to reveal. If they're going to
break in, I at least want them to have to work at it.

In other words, I'm following the same logic as to why you don't want a
login program to say things like "Bad password" or "Bad User ID", which then
tells the cracker they got at least part of it right.  [Which annoys me
about the Windows NT screensaver lock informing all who care to see what one
of the valid IDs is in the domain...]

Granted, if you don't have equipment co-located, and your confident about
the physical security of your machine room, my perspective may not apply...

____________________
Mark Boltz
Sr. System Administrator
TransNexus, LLC
http://www.transnexus.com
tel. +1.404.872.4887 x 242
fax. +1.404.872.9515

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-sage-members@usenix.ORG
[mailto:owner-sage-members@usenix.ORG]On Behalf Of Jim Holthaus
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 11:41 PM
To: Jose Antonio Chagas Machado
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers

Jose Antonio Chagas Machado wrote:
> When you have new people working with you and they need to
> identify the hardware, you have a problem. Does anyone deal with this?
>
> The ideia is to put all data related to servers (host, IP address,
> services running) in a database and then use an application to print

I currently work in a large shop with multiple data centers. All told,
there are more than 200 servers. We put stickers on each server with its
hostname, its IP address and its function. This allows admins to find
the servers easily, but also allows other groups to easily find the
servers, too.




From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 10 12:22:04 2000
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Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:20:04 -0500
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: "Richard C. Dempsey" <dempsey@Kodak.COM>
Subject: Re: PVCS 6.0 performance on Solaris 2.6
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1) Get Adrian Cockcroft's book on Sun Performance Tuning.

2) While you're waiting for the book to come in, have a look at your
   network error rates with `netstat -i`.  Sun and Cisco both adhere the
   100 Mbps autonegotiation standard but are mutually somewhat
   incompatible, so from time to time one side will stick at half duplex
   and the other at full duplex.  This has happened often enough that we
   turn off autonegotiation for our servers and force the interfaces to
   the config we want.

   There is more info at www.sun.com (or is it sunsupport?) on this.

Rich

At 11:13 AM 2/10/00 -0800, Jonathan Hoefker <jhoefker@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone out there has had any issues
>with PVCS 6.0 performance running on Solaris 2.6.  We
>have an Ultra 1 serving as our archive source and pvcs
>binary repository, serving everything out via NFS.
>
>Operations such as tagging and migration are
>significantly faster (500-600 operations/min vs.
>50-150 operations/min) locally on the Ultra 1 than on
>the E3000s that everybody works on.  Naturally the
>thought went to NFS problems.
>
>After doing some investigation, the netowrk didn't
>appear to be a problem (100mb switched between all the
>servers).  The disks were setup poorly, but didn't
>affect local performance.  DNLC hit rate is around
>75%, but there are a lot of longnames too.  The server
>never has a load on it and memory isn't a problem
>either (no sr's in vmstat ever).  nfsd is running with
>256 threads.
>
>While there are things that are evidently in need of
>some amount of fixing, all the smaller pieces don't
>really add up to why there is such a performance
>discrepency between local and remote.  We have had
>PVCS consultants out several times and they have been
>about as useful as dirt.
>
>I guess I'm wondering if any of you have dealt with
>PVCS 6.0 in a similar environment and what you have
>done to achieve acceptable performance results.
>
>Jonathan Hoefker
>Systems Administrator - FedEx
>Orlando, Fl
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
>http://im.yahoo.com
>
>

Richard C. Dempsey                 email: dempsey@kodak.com
Public Online Services             pager: 716-975-3539
11th Floor, Bldg 83, RL            phone: 716-477-3457
Eastman Kodak Company              fax:   716-722-3885
Rochester, NY 14650-2203


From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 10 14:54:36 2000
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To: Jose Antonio Chagas Machado <jose.machado@co.ip.pt>
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Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers
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I've written a LDAP database to hold system date such as this (and
more!) that you may find useful.  It's very easily extensible to hold
whatever information you're interested in.

You're welcome to take a look at:

	http://www.rse.org/bakerg3/ldap-sysutils

--Greg

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Greg Baker (greg.baker@amd.com) 18005388450 x:59720 CPD CAD Austin Texas
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Jose Antonio Chagas Machado wrote:

|Hi,
|
|We grow, and then, I have more than 100 servers in our computer room, 8 machines per rack.
|
|When you have new people working with you and they need to identify the hardware, you have a problem. Does anyone deal with this?
|
|The ideia is to put all data related to servers (host, IP address, services running) in a database and then use an application to print labels to put on each machine.
|
|
|Thanks.
|
|-- 
|Jose Machado <jose.machado@co.ip.pt>
|IP - Engenharia de Rede <http://ip.pt/>
|Pr. Duque de Saldanha, 1, 5º - 1050-094 LISBOA - PORTUGAL
|Tel (+351) 213 166 756 - Fax (+351) 213 166 701
|



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To: "Mark R. Lindsey" <lindsey@acm.org>
CC: Jose Antonio Chagas Machado <jose.machado@co.ip.pt>,
	sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers
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One other suggestion along the lines of cable management.

Color coded cables will make your life easier.

If you have multiple subnets, each one gets it's own color ethernet
cable.  Console cables get their own color, etc.

It really takes the guesswork out of wether you are pulling
the right cable out or putting it in, etc.

Chris G.

"Mark R. Lindsey" wrote:
> 
> : We grow, and then, I have more than 100 servers in our computer room,
> : 8 machines per rack.
> :
> : When you have new people working with you and they need to identify
> : the hardware, you have a problem. Does anyone deal with this?
> 
> Every organization has to, at some point in its growth.
> 
> : The ideia is to put all data related to servers (host, IP address,
> : services running) in a database and then use an application to print
> : labels to put on each machine.
> 
> Building the database is the fun part.
> 
> The real work is in the tedium of indexing every thing. In my previous
> position at an ISP, our number of machines was growing, but our number
> of cables was growing faster. Based on some reading, I organized
> a Very Simple physical-plant labeling scheme, and made some simple
> paper forms to keep track of it all. (We were on a real time budget.)
> 
> It works like this: in an organization, you have a four distinct sets:
>         Devices: (anything with any logic)
>         Frames (connector with no logic)
>         Cables
>         Telecommunication Closets (any room)
> 
> Just start numbering each set somewhere, and count up from there. So
> you might start with Cable 1, then Cable 2, then Cable 3, &c. And you'd
> have Device 1, and Device 2, on so on. The point here is that you just
> have to uniquely identify each device; if you want to make some
> clever system (like Device 1206 means a device in rack 12) then you're
> free to do that.
> 
> Anyway, for the full details of this excruciatingly-simple system,
> check out
>         http://vielle.datasys.net/cpd/
> It includes some provisions for labeling.
> 
> ...
> 
> And on the topic of labels: I've found that the Brother EZ-Touch
> laminating labeler makes a nice unit for a small operation. Those who
> read it will note that my labelling assumes that arbitrarily-long labels
> can be used (e.g., `C12-F1Pr9,10-D9Pt3', describing Cable 12 which runs
> from Frame 1 Pairs 9 and 10 to Port 3 on Device 9).


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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 03:05:48 -0500
From: "Melissa D. Binde" <binde@terindell.com>
To: Chris Greer <cgreer1@midsouth.rr.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers
Message-ID: <20000211030548.A21151@terindell.com>
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	<38A3A28C.9BA1CF57@midsouth.rr.com>
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	from Chris Greer on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 11:47:56PM -0600
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Twas brillig, on Thu Feb 10 at 11:47:56 PM, and Chris Greer burbled:

> One other suggestion along the lines of cable management.
> 
> Color coded cables will make your life easier.
> 
> If you have multiple subnets, each one gets it's own color ethernet
> cable.  Console cables get their own color, etc.
> 
> It really takes the guesswork out of wether you are pulling
> the right cable out or putting it in, etc.

And on the other side, there are those of us who favor NOT color-coding your
cables, because:

1) sometime, your scheme will fail because you're out of the right color,
   and then what are you going to do?
2) I would MUCH rather trace cables through a mess of many different colored
   cables than a mess of identically colored cables.

We currently cable with all of the same color, and there are days when I
think I'm going to have to increase my eye-care insurance after going
crosseyed tracing cables, trying to figure out whether this is the downed
server or a critical machine which I'm about to unplug.

If you can maintain the discipline, labelling both ends of a cable with
where it goes is fabulous; but it's non-trivial, especially with many
systems and network administrators.


As with anything, though, it's whatever works best with your admins, work
habits, and discipline.


-M.


From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 11 01:13:57 2000
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To: "Melissa D. Binde" <binde@terindell.com>
cc: Chris Greer <cgreer1@midsouth.rr.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 11 Feb 2000 03:05:48 EST."
	<20000211030548.A21151@terindell.com> 
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More data to add to this colorful discussion - our RJ-45 patch cable color 
coding is intended to indicate what pinout the cable uses - green are 
straight-thru, purple are rollover (for fddi or null modem/console purposes), 
and black are ethernet crossover (for point-to-point interfaces).

Our wonderful datacenter management team keeps bins stocked with all three 
types in many various lengths so the wiring can stay pretty (providing the 
admins care enough to get the right length cable).

We learned that one way to tame the wiring nightmare was to add a sublevel 
patch frame for each row of machines in the datacenter - machine connects to 
individual rack patch (12 ports of copper/some fiber optional), which goes 
back to a zonal cabinet in that row housing network/console servers; those in 
turn patch back to network-only rows (mostly fiber connections) housing 
backbone switches/routers. At the crowded zonal patch bay, you usually have 
only 3 to 4 feet of cable between jack and switch - easy enough to find cables 
via the wiggle/push/pull method.

In one datacenter there is the remains of the previous two-level design - all 
I can say is, don't do it that way - it's a disaster.

-djohnsen

> Twas brillig, on Thu Feb 10 at 11:47:56 PM, and Chris Greer burbled:
> 
> > One other suggestion along the lines of cable management.
> > 
> > Color coded cables will make your life easier.

-- 
   |  Don Johnsen - Systems Administrator, Engineering Computer Services  |
   |  Cisco Systems, Inc.                    Phone :     408 527 1008     |
   |  250 West Tasman Drive, Bldg. H2/C8-3   Pager :     408 815 4388     |
   |  San Jose, CA 95134-1706                Email :  djohnsen@cisco.com  | 




From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 11 05:16:08 2000
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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:16:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Lamourine <mlamouri@bbnplanet.com>
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To: "Melissa D. Binde" <binde@terindell.com>
cc: Chris Greer <cgreer1@midsouth.rr.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers
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The answer to this is to get a cable labler and put labels two labels on
BOTH ends.  One closest to the end indicates where you plug it in.  The
other indicates where to find the other end..  If necessary, put labels on
the host box at each plug indicating which cable gets connected there.

BE ANAL! you will be happy with the results.

We have a policy here that all cable and hosts are labeled when they are
installed.  in the rack even if they are not connected or powered
on.  Take the extra time up front and beat up people who don't. 

It is worth every second at 2:00 in the morning when your having to
replace a CPU (or tell field service how to over a cell phone).

Much better to spend the time when you have it.

It's been a tough battle to get people to understand how important this
is.   Databases are nice, but the label on the real host is a life saver.

You also have to beat people to REMOVE the labels when they are no longer
applicable and replace them with correct ones.  Again, it takes a few
minutes longer during business hours but the hair-pulling it saves is
worth every minute.

- Mark

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Melissa D. Binde wrote:

> Twas brillig, on Thu Feb 10 at 11:47:56 PM, and Chris Greer burbled:
> 
> > One other suggestion along the lines of cable management.
> > 
> > Color coded cables will make your life easier.
> > 
> > If you have multiple subnets, each one gets it's own color ethernet
> > cable.  Console cables get their own color, etc.
> > 
> > It really takes the guesswork out of wether you are pulling
> > the right cable out or putting it in, etc.
> 
> And on the other side, there are those of us who favor NOT color-coding your
> cables, because:
> 
> 1) sometime, your scheme will fail because you're out of the right color,
>    and then what are you going to do?
> 2) I would MUCH rather trace cables through a mess of many different colored
>    cables than a mess of identically colored cables.
> 
> We currently cable with all of the same color, and there are days when I
> think I'm going to have to increase my eye-care insurance after going
> crosseyed tracing cables, trying to figure out whether this is the downed
> server or a critical machine which I'm about to unplug.
> 
> If you can maintain the discipline, labelling both ends of a cable with
> where it goes is fabulous; but it's non-trivial, especially with many
> systems and network administrators.
> 
> 
> As with anything, though, it's whatever works best with your admins, work
> habits, and discipline.
> 
> 
> -M.
> 

Mark Lamourine <mlamouri@gtei.net>
GTE Internetworking, NCS Tools.
3 Van DeGraff Drive, PO Box 3073, Burlington, MA 01803
Voice: +1 781 262 4306   Fax: +1 781 262 5508



From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 11 07:05:10 2000
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Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers 
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One of our guys is color-blind.  Would that make color-coding non-ADA
compliant? :-)




----------------------------------------------------------------
     ecf@psc.edu     Esther Filderman    moose+@cmu.edu
        Senior System Mangler, News & AFS Dominatrix  
               Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center




From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 11 07:14:44 2000
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To: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers 
In-reply-to: (Your message of Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:05:03 EST.)
	<200002111505.KAA02662@minerva.psc.edu> 
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:14:38 -0500
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>  One of our guys is color-blind.  Would that make color-coding non-ADA
>  compliant? :-)

Ouch.  _Completely_ color-blind?  That's rare...

I guess labels (both ends!) are your friends.  Of course, one can
buy pre-serialized labels, which at least gives you the advantage
(provided you can come up with a good serialization scheme) of
knowing which the other end is.  I suppose you could even get
away without making a database of what goes where at that point, 
though in a physical plant of any size, it might get annoying
really quickly...

--paw


From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 11 07:25:22 2000
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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 07:25:13 -0800 (PST)
From: "John F. Detke" <jdetke@netcom.com>
Reply-To: "John F. Detke" <jdetke@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers 
To: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
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On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Esther Filderman wrote:

> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:05:03 -0500
> From: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
> To: sage-members@usenix.org
> Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers 
> 
> One of our guys is color-blind.  Would that make color-coding non-ADA
> compliant? :-)
> 

This is a genuine problem, and I'd suggest avoiding mixing the common
"problem" colours if possible. Complete colour blindness isn't common, but
there are certain colours many folks have trouble with. I know of one
network admin who has a very hard time distinguishing red and green. Makes
figuring out if the link light is indicating good or bad. I think he
misses the days when equipment had more than a single status LED per port.
Red and green cabling or equipment labels would not be good. Labels
similar to resitor bands would be horrible (I saw this once). 

There's a reason traffic lights have 3 (well, at least 2) physical lights.
	
-- 
John F. Detke		| I only worry about reasonable things
jdetke@netcom.com 	| 
Felton, CA		| -- Kyle, 7 year old with few worries.




From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 11 08:06:34 2000
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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:04:53 -0600
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I know this is a very popular product for gathering statistics about
servers and whatnot.  I've also heard that running Measureware on
our server can use anywhere from 10 - 20% of the resources on the 
computer.  

If anyone on this list has experience with measureware, can you
please let me know if this is anywhere close to true.  
There is a big push for use to use measureware and it's fairly 
expensive per machine and I really don't want to use it to
get the same information you can get from vmstat, or iostat, especially
if I am going to take a pretty big penalty to do so.

If any of you are using MeasureWare, please let me know, good or
bad experiences.


From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 11 10:05:43 2000
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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:05:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers
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Hi,

> Jose Antonio Chagas Machado wrote:
>> When you have new people working with you and they need to
>> identify the hardware, you have a problem. Does anyone deal with this?
>>
>> The ideia is to put all data related to servers (host, IP address,
>> services running) in a database and then use an application to print


My pet idea (which, no surprise, I haven't had a chance to implement!)
is to have a simple label with minimal information plus a bar code. Add
a bar code scanner to a palm pilot, and instant in-depth information on
the particular machine.

With any scheme like this, of course, the danger is not keeping the
database up-to-date.

Cheers,

Ross
-- 
Ross Parker            |      UNIX Sys Admin, Perl and C toolsmithing,
Systems/Network Admin  |     Networking and security, CGI applications.
Telus Mobility         |
                       | A "Frisbeterian" believes that when you die, your soul
parker@bctm.com        | goes up on the roof and you can't get it back down...



From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 11 10:12:04 2000
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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:11:22 -0800
From: Arnold de Leon <arnold@corp.webtv.net>
To: Don Johnsen <djohnsen@cisco.com>
Cc: "Melissa D. Binde" <binde@terindell.com>,
	Chris Greer <cgreer1@midsouth.rr.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers
Message-ID: <20000211101122.G11696@corp.webtv.net>
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We use the color of the boots on the cables to indicate the wiring.

A black boot is wired straight through, a green boot is an ethernet
crossover cable, a red boot was an FDDI over copper crossover cable.

The other thing that we do is we order our cables with serial numbers.
We encode on the cable the color, length and a serial number on both
ends of the cable.  This can be handy when you have a tight wiring frame
and you want to make sure you have the right cable.

	arnold
-- 
Arnold de Leon                       WebTV Networks, Inc.
arnold@corp.webtv.net                305 Lytton Ave.
+1 650 614 5538                      Palo Alto, CA 94301


From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 11 11:39:06 2000
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Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers (serialized cables?)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:11:22 PST."
	<20000211101122.G11696@corp.webtv.net> 
From: Bill Bogstad <bogstad@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:38:48 -0500
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	A couple of people suggested serialized cables. I've never seen them
(and really wish I had a few times in the past).  Pointers to manufacturers or
distributors would be appreciated.

				Thanks,
				Bill Bogstad
				bogstad@pobox.com


From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 11 11:57:37 2000
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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:55:34 -0500
From: Bill Shorter <jwillie@fast.net>
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To: cgreer1@midsouth.rr.com
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I have run MeasureWare for years on Sun and HP servers.
It never takes more than 4% or 5% of a CPU.  Even when
Measureware (scopeux, alarmgen) was ill, it still did
not consume the system.

I have years of experience with SunNet Manager, BMC Patrol
and HP's RPM tools.  Measureware is far and away the best
solution for server monitoring that I have ever used.

Bill Shorter


From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 11 11:59:54 2000
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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:58:54 -0800
From: "Lloyd C. Cha" <lloyd.cha@pobox.com>
To: Mark Lamourine <mlamouri@bbnplanet.com>
Cc: "Melissa D. Binde" <binde@terindell.com>,
	Chris Greer <cgreer1@midsouth.rr.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers
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	"Melissa D. Binde" <binde@terindell.com>,
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References: <20000211030548.A21151@terindell.com>
	<Pine.SOL.4.21.0002110809430.7384-100000@wally>
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Regarding cable tracing ...

At my previous place of employment, our solution was to take advantage
of information that we could obtain from our network switches.  We
wrote scripts to periodically download MAC address tables, IP address
tables, and port information from the switches and correlate that with
our DNS information.  The result was an accurate map of what machine
was connected to which port that was updated automatically.

Of course this is only useful for connections that have (or had)
active machines on them and assumes that most of the connections are
to switches and not unmanaged hubs.

But our experience was that the information provided was useful for
our most common problems and it reduced our cable tracing activities
to near zero.

-L

Once upon a time (like on Feb 11, 2000), Mark Lamourine wrote:
> The answer to this is to get a cable labler and put labels two labels on
> BOTH ends.  One closest to the end indicates where you plug it in.  The
> other indicates where to find the other end..  If necessary, put labels on
> the host box at each plug indicating which cable gets connected there.


From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 11 13:40:49 2000
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To: "John F. Detke" <jdetke@netcom.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers 
From: Jay Sekora <jay@ccs.neu.edu>
Organization: Northeastern University CCS Systems Group
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:40:38 -0500
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> I know of one
> network admin who has a very hard time distinguishing red and green. Makes
> figuring out if the link light is indicating good or bad. I think he
> misses the days when equipment had more than a single status LED per port.

I don't know a whole lot about colour blindness (despite having some 
myself), but one thing that might be useful in this case is a little 
piece of red (or green) transparency, maybe cut to credit-card size 
so he can carry it in his wallet.  The concept is that a red LED is 
going to look bright through a red transparency, while a green LED 
will look dim.

(I have a different kind of colour blindness.  Red looks very dim 
to me, so that I sometimes don't notice red lights, and red text on 
a black background is almost illegible.  On the other hand, certain 
hues of green look almost white to me, so I can see them fine, but 
have a hard time distinguishing them from white lights.)

-j.

Jay Sekora
<jay@ccs.neu.edu>
Unix Systems Administrator
Northeastern University
College of Computer Science


From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 11 13:58:31 2000
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From: Jim Holthaus <jim@holthaus.com>
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Chris Greer wrote:
> 
> I know this is a very popular product for gathering statistics about
> servers and whatnot.  I've also heard that running Measureware on
> our server can use anywhere from 10 - 20% of the resources on the
> computer.

It depends on what you mean by resources, and how many resources you
have to begin with. 
CPU - only a modest hit on even old boxes (H30, for example). 
Disk - the datafiles can become very large, depending on how you have
the collector configured.
Memory - modest hit. It runs a few daemons that monitor system usage and
record to the datafiles in /var/opt/perf.


> get the same information you can get from vmstat, or iostat, especially
> if I am going to take a pretty big penalty to do so.
> 
> If any of you are using MeasureWare, please let me know, good or
> bad experiences.

MeasureWare is kind of neat because it provides a graphic presentation
of system utilization that can be drilled-down for more detail. You
could get this information from other tools like iostat and vmstat and
sar, but it could become an enormous chore. 

The most important thing is to have a baseline of normal or acceptable
performance; so you should get MeasureWare installed and running as soon
as possible (preferably before there is a problem). Then compare the
"before" picture to the "after" picture when a problem is reported or
during your usual capacity reviews.

If you are using MeasureWare in response to a problem, make sure that
you leave MeasureWare installed and running to get a good baseline after
the problem is fixed.
-- 
Jim Holthaus
jim@holthaus.com


From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 11 18:17:19 2000
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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:13:50 -0500
Subject: Erasing Disks
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From: Susan K. Diller


Does anyone know of a tool or have script which would 'erase' disks?  I've
been
asked to write 0's and then 1's on a disk several times, before it is sent
back to the
vendor.

(I already know this is mostly useless, if someone really wants to read the
disk.)

Thanks.




From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 11 20:16:52 2000
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From: lindsey@acm.org (Mark R. Lindsey)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:26:46 -0500
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To: susan.diller@Kodak.COM
Subject: Re: Erasing Disks (and Unix block semantics)
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: Does anyone know of a tool or have script which would 'erase' disks?
: I've been asked to write 0's and then 1's on a disk several times,
: before it is sent back to the vendor.

At least half of the job is easy: use `dd' with the input file of
/dev/zero -- that will generate the null (0) bytes you need; as in
	dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/dsk/foo/bar/0

As for the non-null bytes, that shouldn't be hard. 

	/* dump_ones.c */
	#include <stdio.h>
	int main(void) { while (1) printf("%c", (char)(255)); }

Compile that, and dump its output onto the disk to which you
want to write all ones; as in

	./dump_ones >/dev/dsk/foo/bar/0

At least in Linux semantics (with which I am most familiar) both dd
and dump_ones will stop when you've written the whole disk. So you
could easily write a dumb little script that runs each one N times,
where N satisfies `several' in your request.

Does anyone know if other Unices don't act this way -- that is, does
every Unix let you write directly to the block disk device from start
to finish, and then make the write()'s fail after writing to the end?





From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 11 20:47:21 2000
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From: "J Yaple" <james3678@hotmail.com>
To: susan.diller@Kodak.COM, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Erasing Disks
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:46:44 CST
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Most of the time we have so send disks back, they're broken.  i.e. if we 
could write 0's and 1's, the disk is okay right?

We have several levels for this type of thing when we excess (sell used) 
equipment.  Low-level format, agreement signed by vendor, and also a really 
big-ass magnet (bulk eraser).

HTH.

James Yaple

>
>From: Susan K. Diller
>
>
>Does anyone know of a tool or have script which would 'erase' disks?  I've
>been
>asked to write 0's and then 1's on a disk several times, before it is sent
>back to the
>vendor.


______________________________________________________
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From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 11 22:46:50 2000
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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:46:29 -0500
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
Subject: Re: Erasing Disks
Cc: susan.diller@Kodak.COM
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Your statement about uselessness may not be entirely accurate.

The DOS specifies in DOD-5220.22-M That magnetic media can considered 
"declassified" by overwriting the data space with a character, it's 
compliment, a random character, and verify.  It further states that this 
alone is not suitable for confidential information and would need to be 
repeated at least 3 times over the confidential data.

I have also read reports that high powered electronic equipment can still 
find electromagnetic residue from the original data even after these 3 
passes.  The same paper later went on to give the figure of at least 7 
passes to truly erase the data.  I am sorry that I cannot remember what or 
where that document was, however, I can tell you that I was researching 
this same topic.

Jetico has a freeware utility BCWIPE that runs on Windows machines that 
performs this sort of data shredding.  There also was a modified version of 
rm, called srm, that also shredded files to the DOD standard.  If you have 
the source code, it should be easy to modify the existing rm() to default 
to this 7 pass extended character wiping.   The sae could also be done in 
perl.

It should also be noted that it is also possible to gain information about 
what types of files may have been on the disk prior to wiping by examining 
the directory entries (FAT).  Some of the more advance wiping software will 
also wipe any file tables and swap space.

Here is a dumb little bit of perl that demonstrates the wiping passes.

#!/usr/bin/perl
# dod_rm.pl - Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com> 02/11/2000
#
# This script demonstrates the DOD-5220.22-M seven
# pass exetended character file wiping.
#
# Note: directory traversal and general efficiency
# have been left to the reader as an excercise.

# Set to the number of passes that you want
$passes = 7;

# Main loop (accept more than one filename)
while ($_ = $ARGV[0]) {
    rm_file($_);
    shift;
}

# Remove a single file.
sub rm_file {
    local ($filename) = @_;
    local ($cpass, $size, $i, $j);

    # try to open the file for read/write
    open (FILE, "+< $filename") ||
       die "can't open $filename: $!\n";

    # Get the file's size
    @statbuf = stat(FILE);
    $size = $statbuf[7];

    # overwrite the file $passes times with
    # alternating bits, random bits, and zeros.
    for ($i = 0; $i < $passes; $i++) {
       $char = 0xff;
       for ($cpass = 0; $cpass < 4; $cpass++ ) {
          if ($cpass == 2) { $char = rand(255); }
          if ($cpass == 3) { $char = 0x00; }
          for ($j = $size; $j > 0; $j--) {
             print FILE "$char";
             $char ^= 0xff;
          } # for j
       } # for cpass
    } # for i

    # remove the file
    unlink ($filename);
}

BCWIPE can be found at http://www.jetico.com/

Hope this helps,
- Bennett

At 02:13 PM 2/11/00 -0500, susan.diller@Kodak.COM wrote:


>From: Susan K. Diller
>
>
>Does anyone know of a tool or have script which would 'erase' disks?  I've
>been
>asked to write 0's and then 1's on a disk several times, before it is sent
>back to the
>vendor.
>
>(I already know this is mostly useless, if someone really wants to read the
>disk.)
>
>Thanks.
>




From sage-members-owner  Sat Feb 12 08:09:10 2000
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From: Trever Miller <Trever.Miller@veritas.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: Erasing Disks
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 08:03:37 -0800
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this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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Here's some C code I wrote a long time ago that uses 4 patterns
and n rounds of them.  It can be easily modified to the DOD
specs mentioned earlier in this thread.

There are two utilities.  wipefile which does a single file,
and wipefree, which grows a temporary file until it runs
out of space on the filesystem, then writes patterns to it
and deletes it.

Neither of these will take into account directory blocks
or blocks that were marked as bad by the drive/os and
reallocated..

Please feel free to make modifications you see fit.

-----  Trever Miller
 ---   Technical Support Engineer
  -    VERITAS - TeleBackup

 


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From sage-members-owner  Sat Feb 12 08:31:54 2000
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From: "Jack Coats" <jack@coats.org>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
References: <20000210002945.A1172@morcego.ip.pt>
Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:30:48 -0600
Organization: Coats Closet
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Working or an oil company we had many of the same problems.

On desktops, we named them with the users ID as the hostname.
On the disk on the desktop, we put a .ident file in the root
directory.  It was to have some paired information like:

user: userID
phone: telephone number with extention physically closest to the machine
hostname: hostname (typically the same as the userID but not always.
ether: the ethers address of the NIC card/Sun motherboard
hosttype: kind of machine
location: city-campus-building-floor-room
disk: kind and size of each disk (typically just the Segate model number,
and target address
at least on the Suns, which were most of the client computers)

On an external label (one on the CPU, one on the monitor) it had the
hostname, IP address,
and the phone number of the local helpdesk.

Yes it seems like overkill, and the file had to be edited by hand every time
the
machine moved, but it REALLY helped in keeping a good inventory, and finding
machines in disparate offices. We ran some scripts from cron regularly on
each
host to push this file (and some other automatically gathered stuff, like
current memory,
load, etc) to a single server, where it was stashed in a database.  We
compared this
entry to the last time, and if theings changed, especially if physical
memory was
dissapearing (and that did happen on occasion, sometimes hardware probems,
sometimes
stealing physical memory from the insides of machines), anyway the report
summaries
were sent to management who thought they cared, and exctptions to the admins
who
did care, and the database was available for ad-hoc requests that always
came up
(but we let the DBAs do that since it was in Oracle :)

In datacenters, the machines were labeled by the customer group
thesupported,
and a map was posted as to where servers were near each door into the server
room.  The servers also had their names and public IP addresses labeled on
them.

I hope that helps... JC



From sage-members-owner  Sat Feb 12 08:42:29 2000
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From: "Jack Coats" <jack@coats.org>
Cc: <sage-members@usenix.org>
References: <200002100358.WAA21939@vielle.datasys.net>
	<38A3A28C.9BA1CF57@midsouth.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Stickers to identify servers
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:37:50 -0600
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Re-thinking the real need, I would like to put a small, cheap,
lcd screen on each server, have it scrool through the important
information and show stats.  Hostname, IP, comment that might
include user group, or something, load, generic status like 
red, yellow, blue, green, or some other grading of systems
'goodness'.  It would probably be serial attached to the computer,
and could run and display some information without the need
for the host to even be turned on!

... dreaming...

heck if I am dreaming, have it support a web server that could
be linked via ethernet back to a monitoring station in a server
room too (no wires) :) ... such things dreams are made of. 

... Jack



From sage-members-owner  Sat Feb 12 09:13:34 2000
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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:08:11 -0700 (MST)
From: "Christopher M. Conway" <wombat@prickly-wombat.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Erasing Disks (and Unix block semantics)
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=       /* dump_ones.c */
=       #include <stdio.h>
=       int main(void) { while (1) printf("%c", (char)(255)); }
=
=Compile that, and dump its output onto the disk to which you
=want to write all ones; as in
=
=       ./dump_ones >/dev/dsk/foo/bar/0

( putting on ex-programmer cap; this is not meant to be nasty, merely
informative )

Bear in mind that this is *REAL SLOW* and will take forever on a large
disk. A better pair is:

/* dump_ones.c */
main()
     {
     char obuf[8192];
     memset(obuf,1,8192);
     while (1) write(1,obuf,8192);
     }

And, then still use dd:

dump_ones | dd of=/your/disk/drive bs=8192

To really tune it, hunt for a better number than 8192 for your system.
I've found that it's generally within about 10% of being the optimal size.

You'll be amazed at the speed difference. Really. Try it and you'll see.
I've seen more than an order of magnitude difference in time taken for the
two approaches. Actually, a quick check on my system shows *two* orders of
magnitude for these specific versions.

You can also mdify this to do random characters; again, fill a buffer with
random characters, then write the buffer. It will go much faster.

something like this:

int buf[2048];
int i;
srandom(time(NULL));
while (1)
        {
        for (i = 0; i < 2048; i++) buf[i] = random();
        write(1,buf,2048 * sizeof(int));
        }

Note that this assumes that int is 32 bits (to give a total 8192 byte
buffer), that random is decent, and that it returns 32 random bits. None
of these are necessarily true. Also, using srandom(time(NULL)) is bad if
any bad guy could reasonably guess about when you did the wipe. These are
examples to show the concept, no warranty of usability or effectiveness or
compilation are express or implied, your mileage may vary, if it breaks
you get to keep both halves. Okay? 8^{)>

-- 
EBay violates your privacy-- email me for details!

Christopher M. Conway           U*IX and C Guru
wombat@prickly-wombat.com	Don't Tread on Me
We must all hang together, or, most assuredly, we will all hang separately.
I'll be post-feminist in the post-patriarchy.



From sage-members-owner  Sat Feb 12 10:10:44 2000
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Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 05:08:55 +1100
To: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
From: Greg Rose <ggr@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: Erasing Disks
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org, susan.diller@Kodak.COM
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At 01:46 12/02/2000 -0500, Bennett Samowich wrote:
>I have also read reports that high powered electronic equipment can still 
>find electromagnetic residue from the original data even after these 3 
>passes.  The same paper later went on to give the figure of at least 7 
>passes to truly erase the data.  I am sorry that I cannot remember what or 
>where that document was, however, I can tell you that I was researching 
>this same topic.

"Secure deletion of data from magnetic and semiconductor memory" (IIRC), 
Peter Gutmann, proc. 6th USENIX Security Symposium, July 1996.

Greg.

Greg Rose                                     INTERNET: ggr@Qualcomm.com
Qualcomm Australia        VOICE:  +61-2-9181-4851   FAX: +61-2-9181-5470
Suite 410, Birkenhead Point,             http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/
Drummoyne NSW 2047    232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F  E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C


From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb 14 09:17:50 2000
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--==_Exmh_8824379230
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Greg Rose wrote:
> "Secure deletion of data from magnetic and semiconductor memory" (IIRC)=
, =

> Peter Gutmann, proc. 6th USENIX Security Symposium, July 1996.

Here is a nice program from Colin Plumb that applies the information from=

that paper.  It's the best I've seen.

- J=FCrgen



--==_Exmh_8824379230
Content-Type: text/plain ; name="sterilize.c"; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Description: sterilize.c
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="sterilize.c"
Mime-Version: 1.0
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/* =

 * sterilize.c - by Colin Plumb.
 * Version 1.01
 *
 * Do a secure overwrite of given files or devices, so that not even
 * very expensive hardware probing can recover the data.
 *
 * For the theory behind this, see "Secure Deletion of Data from Magnetic=

 * and Solid-State Memory", on line at
 * http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/secure_del.html
 *
 * Although this processs is also known as "wiping", I prefer the longer
 * name both because I think it is more evocative of what is happening an=
d
 * because a longer name conveys a more appropriate sense of deliberatene=
ss.
 *
 * If asked to wipe a file, this also deletes it, renaming it to in a
 * clever way to try to leave no trace of the original filename.
 *
 * Copyright 1997, 1998 Colin Plumb <colin@nyx.net>.  This program may
 * be freely distributed under the terms of the GNU, BSD or Artistic
 * licenses.  Even if you use the BSD license, which does not require it,=

 * I'd really like to get improvements back.
 *
 * The ISAAC code still bears some resemblance to the code written
 * by Bob Jenkins, but he permits pretty unlimited use.
 *
 * This was inspired by a desire to improve on some code titled:
 * Wipe V1.0-- Overwrite and delete files.  S. 2/3/96
 * but I've rewritten everything here so completely that no trace of
 * the original remains.
 *
 * Things to do:
 * - Think about security implications.  Is ther any way this can be tric=
ked
 *   into deleting the wrong file?  It will try to work on named pipes
 *   and sockets, too, which might not be a good idea.
 *
 * - Do we need autoconf for anything?
 */

#include <sys/stat.h>	/* For struct stat */
#include <sys/time.h>	/* For struct timeval */
#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdarg.h>	/* Used by pferror */
#include <stdlib.h>	/* For free() */
#include <unistd.h>	/* for open(), close(), write(), fstat() */
#include <fcntl.h>	/* for open(), close(), O_RDWR */
#include <string.h>	/* For strlen(), memcpy(), memset(), etc. */
#include <limits.h>	/* For UINT_MAX, etc. */
#include <errno.h>	/* For errno */

static char const version_string[] =3D
	"sterilize 0.9";
#define DEFAULT_PASSES 25	/* Default */
/* How often to update wiping display */
#define VERBOSE_UPDATE	100*1024

/*
 * --------------------------------------------------------------------
 *     Bob Jenkins' cryptographic random number generator, ISAAC.
 *     Hacked by Colin Plumb.
 *
 * We need a source of random numbers for some of the overwrite data.
 * Cryptographically secure is good, but it's not fatal if it's not,
 * so I can be a little bit experimental in the choice of RNGs here.
 *
 * This generator is based somewhat on RC4, but has analysis
 * (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/bob_jenkins/randomnu.htm)
 * pointing to it actually being better.  I like because it's nice and
 * fast, and because the author did a decent job analyzing it.
 * --------------------------------------------------------------------
 */

#if ULONG_MAX =3D=3D 0xffffffff
typedef unsigned long word32;
#elif UINT_MAX =3D=3D 0xffffffff
typedef unsigned word32;
#elif USHRT_MAX =3D=3D 0xffffffff
typedef unsigned short word32;
#elif UCHAR_MAX =3D=3D 0xffffffff
typedef unsigned char word32;
#else
#error No 32-bit type available!
#endif

/* Size of the state tables to use.  (You may change ISAAC_LOG) */
#define ISAAC_LOG 8
#define ISAAC_SIZE (1<<ISAAC_LOG)
#define ISAAC_BYTES (ISAAC_SIZE*sizeof(word32))

/* RNG state variables */
struct isaac_state {
	word32 mm[ISAAC_SIZE];	/* Main state array */
	word32 iv[8];		/* Seeding initial vector */
	word32 a, b, c;		/* Extra index variables */
};

/* This index operation is more efficient on many processors */
#define ind(mm,x)  *(unsigned *)((char *)(mm) + ( (x) & (ISAAC_SIZE-1)<<2=
 ))

/*
 * The central step.  This uses two temporaries, x and y.  mm is the
 * whole state array, while m is a pointer to the current word.  off is
 * the offset from m to the word ISAAC_SIZE/2 words away in the mm array,=

 * i.e. +/- ISAAC_SIZE/2.
 */
#define isaac_step(mix,a,b,mm,m,off,r) \
( \
  a =3D (a^(mix)) + (m)[off], \
  x =3D *(m), \
  *(m) =3D y =3D ind(mm,x) + a + b, \
  *(r) =3D b =3D ind(mm,y>>ISAAC_LOG) + x \
)

/*
 * Refill the entire r[] array
 */
static void
isaac_refill(struct isaac_state *s, word32 r[ISAAC_SIZE])
{
	register word32 a, b;	/* Caches of a and b */
	register word32 x, y;	/* Temps needed by isaac_step() macro */
	register word32 *m =3D s->mm;	/* Pointer into state array */

	a =3D s->a;
	b =3D s->b + (++s->c);

	do {
		isaac_step(a << 13, a, b, s->mm, m  , ISAAC_SIZE/2, r  );
		isaac_step(a >>  6, a, b, s->mm, m+1, ISAAC_SIZE/2, r+1);
		isaac_step(a <<  2, a, b, s->mm, m+2, ISAAC_SIZE/2, r+2);
		isaac_step(a >> 16, a, b, s->mm, m+3, ISAAC_SIZE/2, r+3);
		r +=3D 4;
	} while ((m +=3D 4) < s->mm+ISAAC_SIZE/2);
	do {
		isaac_step(a << 13, a, b, s->mm, m  , -ISAAC_SIZE/2, r  );
		isaac_step(a >>  6, a, b, s->mm, m+1, -ISAAC_SIZE/2, r+1);
		isaac_step(a <<  2, a, b, s->mm, m+2, -ISAAC_SIZE/2, r+2);
		isaac_step(a >> 16, a, b, s->mm, m+3, -ISAAC_SIZE/2, r+3);
		r +=3D 4;
	} while ((m +=3D 4) < s->mm+ISAAC_SIZE);
	s->a =3D a;
	s->b =3D b;
}

/*
 * The basic seed-scrambling step for initialization, based on Bob
 * Jenkins' 256-bit hash.
 */
#define mix(a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h) \
   (       a ^=3D b << 11, d +=3D a, \
   b +=3D c, b ^=3D c >>  2, e +=3D b, \
   c +=3D d, c ^=3D d <<  8, f +=3D c, \
   d +=3D e, d ^=3D e >> 16, g +=3D d, \
   e +=3D f, e ^=3D f << 10, h +=3D e, \
   f +=3D g, f ^=3D g >>  4, a +=3D f, \
   g +=3D h, g ^=3D h <<  8, b +=3D g, \
   h +=3D a, h ^=3D a >>  9, c +=3D h, \
   a +=3D b                        )

/* The basic ISAAC initialization pass.  */
static void
isaac_mix(struct isaac_state *s, word32 const seed[ISAAC_SIZE])
{
	int i;
 	word32 a =3D s->iv[0];
 	word32 b =3D s->iv[1];
 	word32 c =3D s->iv[2];
 	word32 d =3D s->iv[3];
 	word32 e =3D s->iv[4];
 	word32 f =3D s->iv[5];
 	word32 g =3D s->iv[6];
 	word32 h =3D s->iv[7];

	for (i =3D 0; i < ISAAC_SIZE; i +=3D 8) {
		a +=3D seed[i];
		b +=3D seed[i+1];
		c +=3D seed[i+2];
		d +=3D seed[i+3];
		e +=3D seed[i+4];
		f +=3D seed[i+5];
		g +=3D seed[i+6];
		h +=3D seed[i+7];

		mix(a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h);

		s->mm[i] =3D a;
		s->mm[i+1] =3D b;
		s->mm[i+2] =3D c;
		s->mm[i+3] =3D d;
		s->mm[i+4] =3D e;
		s->mm[i+5] =3D f;
		s->mm[i+6] =3D g;
		s->mm[i+7] =3D h;
	}

	s->iv[0] =3D a;
	s->iv[1] =3D b;
	s->iv[2] =3D c;
	s->iv[3] =3D d;
	s->iv[4] =3D e;
	s->iv[5] =3D f;
	s->iv[6] =3D g;
	s->iv[7] =3D h;
}

/*
 * Initialize the ISAAC RNG with the given seed material.
 * Its size MUST be a multiple of ISAAC_BYTES, and may be
 * the s->mm array.
 *
 * This is a generalization of the original ISAAC initialzation code
 * to support larger seed sizes.  For seed sizes of 0 and ISAAC_BYTES,
 * it is identical.
 */
static void
isaac_init(struct isaac_state *s, word32 const *seed, size_t seedsize)
{
	static word32 const iv[8] =3D {
		0x1367df5a, 0x95d90059, 0xc3163e4b, 0x0f421ad8,
		0xd92a4a78, 0xa51a3c49, 0xc4efea1b, 0x30609119 };
	int i;

#if 0
	/* Tne initialization of iv is a precomputed form of: */
	for (i =3D 0; i < 7; i++)
		iv[i] =3D 0x9e3779b9;	/* the golden ratio */ =

	for (i =3D 0; i < 4; ++i)		/* scramble it */
		mix(iv[0], iv[1], iv[2], iv[3], iv[4], iv[5], iv[6], iv[7]);
#endif
	s->a =3D s->b =3D s->c =3D 0;

	for (i =3D 0; i < 8; i++)
		s->iv[i] =3D iv[i];

	if (seedsize) {
		/* First pass */
		isaac_mix(s, seed);
		/* Second and subsequent passes (extension to ISAAC) */
		while (seedsize -=3D ISAAC_BYTES) {
			seed +=3D ISAAC_SIZE;
			for (i =3D 0; i < ISAAC_SIZE; i++)
				s->mm[i] +=3D seed[i];
			isaac_mix(s, s->mm);
		}
	}

	/* Final pass */
	isaac_mix(s, s->mm);
}

/*
 * Get seed material.  16 bytes (128 bits) is plenty, but if we have
 * /dev/urandom, we get 32 bytes =3D 256 bits for complete overkill.
 */
static void
isaac_seed(struct isaac_state *s)
{
	s->mm[0] =3D getpid();
	s->mm[1] =3D getppid();

	{
#ifdef CLOCK_REALTIME	/* POSIX ns-resolution */
		struct timespec ts;
		clock_gettime(CLOCK_REALTIME, &ts);
		s->mm[2] =3D ts.tv_sec;
		s->mm[3] =3D ts.tv_nsec;
#else
		struct timeval tv;
		gettimeofday(&tv, (struct timezone *)0);
		s->mm[2] =3D tv.tv_sec;
		s->mm[3] =3D tv.tv_usec;
#endif
	}

	{
		int fd =3D open("/dev/urandom", O_RDONLY);
		if (fd >=3D 0) {
			read(fd, (char *)(s->mm+4), 32);
			close(fd);
		} else {
			fd =3D open("/dev/random", O_RDONLY | O_NONBLOCK);
			if (fd >=3D 0) {
				/* /dev/random is more precious, so use less */
				read(fd, (char *)(s->mm+4), 16);
				close(fd);
			}
		}
	}

	isaac_init(s, s->mm, sizeof(s->mm));
}

/*
 * Read up to "size" bytes from the given FD and use them as additional
 * ISAAC seed material.  Returns the number of bytes actually read.
 */
static off_t
isaac_seedfd(struct isaac_state *s, int fd, off_t size)
{
	off_t sizeleft =3D size;
	size_t lim, soff;
	ssize_t ssize;
	int i;
	word32 seed[ISAAC_SIZE];

	while (sizeleft) {
		lim =3D sizeof(seed);
		if ((off_t)lim > sizeleft)
			lim =3D (size_t)sizeleft;
		soff =3D 0;
		do {
			ssize =3D read(fd, (char *)seed+soff, lim-soff);
		} while (ssize > 0 && (soff +=3D (size_t)ssize) < lim);
		/* Mix in what was read */
		if (soff) {
			/* Garbage after the sofff position is harmless */
			for (i =3D 0; i < ISAAC_SIZE; i++)
				s->mm[i] +=3D seed[i];
			isaac_mix(s, s->mm);
			sizeleft -=3D soff;
		}
		if (ssize <=3D 0)
			break;
	}
	/* Final mix, as in isaac_init */
	isaac_mix(s, s->mm);
	return size - sizeleft;
}

/* Single-value RNG built on top of isaac */
struct irand_state {
	word32 r[ISAAC_SIZE];
	unsigned numleft;
	struct isaac_state *s;
};

static void
irand_init(struct irand_state *r, struct isaac_state *s)
{
	r->numleft =3D 0;
	r->s =3D s;
}

/*
 * We take from the end of the block deliberately, so if we need
 * only a small number of values, we choose the final ones which are
 * marginally better mixed than the initial ones.
 */
static word32
irand32(struct irand_state *r)
{
	if (!r->numleft) {
		isaac_refill(r->s, r->r);
		r->numleft =3D ISAAC_SIZE;
	}
	return r->r[--r->numleft];
}

/*
 * Return a uniformly distributed random number between 0 and n,
 * inclusive.  Thus, the result is modulo n+1.
 */
static word32
irand_mod(struct irand_state *r, word32 n)
{
	word32 x;
	word32 lim;

	if (!++n)
		return irand32(r);

	lim =3D -n % n;	/* =3D (2**32-n) % n =3D 2**32 % n */
	do {
		x =3D irand32(r);
	} while (x < lim);
	return x % n;
}

/* Global variable for error printing purposes */
char const *argv0 =3D NULL;

/*
 * Like perror() but fancier.  (And fmt is not allowed to be NULL)
 */
#if __GNUC__ >=3D 2
static void pfstatus(char const *, ...) __attribute__((format(printf, 1, =
2)));
static void pferror(char const *, ...) __attribute__((format(printf, 1, 2=
)));
#endif

/*
 * Update current status line on stdout.
 * This is done by using CR and overprinting the new data.
 * This takes printf args and overwrites status line with new status line=
=2E
 * Each line is padded with trailing spaces to cover up what was printed
 * before (assuming the return value of printf is an accurate width).
 */
static int status_visible =3D 0;	/* Number of visible characters */
static int status_pos =3D 0;	/* Current position, including padding */

static void
pfstatus(char const *fmt, ...)
{
	int new;
	va_list ap;

	/* If we weren't at beginning, go there. */
	if (status_pos)
		putchar('\r');
	va_start(ap, fmt);
	new =3D vprintf(fmt, ap);
	va_end(ap);
	if (new >=3D 0) {
		status_pos =3D new;
		while (status_pos < status_visible) {
			putchar(' ');
			status_pos++;
		}
		status_visible =3D new;
	}
	fflush(stdout);
}

/* Go to beginning of (possibly new) line, leaving any status visible. */=

static void
flushstatus(void)
{
	if (status_visible) {
		putchar('\n');	/* Leave line visible */
		fflush(stdout);
		status_visible =3D status_pos =3D 0;
	} else if (status_pos) {
		putchar('\r');	/* Go back to beginning of line */
		fflush(stdout);
		status_pos =3D 0;
	}
}

static void
pferror(char const *fmt, ...)
{
	va_list ap;
	char const *err;

	err =3D strerror(errno);

	flushstatus();	/* Make it look pretty */

	if (argv0) {
		fputs(argv0, stderr);
		fputs(": ", stderr);
	}
	va_start(ap, fmt);
	vfprintf(stderr, fmt, ap);
	va_end(ap);
	fputs(": ", stderr);
	fputs(err, stderr);
	putc('\n', stderr);
}
 =

/*
 * Get the size of a file that doesn't want to cooperate, (such as a
 * device) by doing a binary search for the last readable byte.  The size=

 * of the file is the least offset at which it is not possible to read
 * a byte.  (We assume that if it is possible to read a byte at offset x,=

 * it is also possible at all offsets <=3D x.)
 */
static off_t
sizefd(int fd)
{
	off_t hi, lo, mid;
	char c;

	/* Binary doubling upwards to find the right range */
	lo =3D 0;
	hi =3D 0;	/* Any number, preferably 2^x-1, is okay here. */

	/*
	 * Loop invariant: we have verified that it is possible to read
	 * a byte at all offsets < lo.	Increase hi until it is not
	 * possible to read a byte at that offset, establishing the loop
	 * invariant for the following loop.
	 */
	for (;;) {
		if (lseek(fd, hi, SEEK_SET) =3D=3D (off_t)-1 ||
		    read(fd, &c, 1) < 1)
			break;
		lo =3D hi+1;	/* This preserves loop invariant. */
		hi +=3D lo;	/* Exponential doubling. */
	}
	/*
	 * Loop invariant: it is not possible to read a byte at hi,
	 * but it is possible at all offsets < lo.  Thus, the
	 * offset we seek is between lo and hi inclusive.
	 */
	while (hi > lo) {
		mid =3D (hi+lo)/2;	/* Rounded down, so mid < hi */
		if (lseek(fd, mid, SEEK_SET) =3D=3D (off_t)-1 ||
		    read(fd, &c, 1) < 1) {
			hi =3D mid;	/* mid < hi, so this makes progress */
			continue;
		}
		lo =3D mid+1;	/* Because mid < hi, lo <=3D hi */
	}
	/* Windows is now of zero width, so we have an exact answer */
	return hi;
}

/*
 * Fill a buffer with a specified pattern. =

 * =

 * The buffer must be at least 3 bytes long.
 */
static void
fillpattern(int type, unsigned char *r, size_t size)
{
	size_t i;
	unsigned bits =3D type & 0xfff;

	bits |=3D bits << 12;
	((unsigned char *)r)[0] =3D (bits >> 4) & 255;
	((unsigned char *)r)[1] =3D (bits >> 8) & 255;
	((unsigned char *)r)[2] =3D bits & 255;
	for (i =3D 3; i < size/2; i *=3D 2)
		memcpy((char *)r+i, (char *)r, i);
	if (i < size)
		memcpy((char *)r+i, (char *)r, size-i);

	/* Invert the first bit of every 512-byte sector. */
	if (type & 0x1000)
		for (i =3D 0; i < size; i +=3D 512)
			r[i] ^=3D 0x80;
}

/*
 * Fill a buffer with random data.
 * size is rounded UP to a multiple of * ISAAC_BYTES.
 */
static void
fillrand(struct isaac_state *s, word32 *r, size_t size)
{
	size =3D (size+ISAAC_BYTES-1)/ISAAC_BYTES;

	while (size--) {
		isaac_refill(s, r);
		r +=3D ISAAC_SIZE;
	}
}

static void
passname(int type, char buf[7])
{
	unsigned long bits;

	if (type < 0) {
		memcpy(buf, "random", 7);
	} else {
		bits =3D type & 0xfff;
		bits |=3D bits << 12;
		if (type & 0x1000)
			bits ^=3D 0x800000;
		sprintf(buf, "%0.6lX", bits);
	}
}

static int
dopass(int fd, char const *name, off_t size, int type,
	struct isaac_state *s, unsigned long k, unsigned long n)
{
	off_t cursize, thresh;
	size_t lim, soff;
	ssize_t ssize;
	word32 r[ISAAC_SIZE*12]; /* Multiple of 4K and of pattern size */
	char pass_string[7];

	if (lseek(fd, 0, SEEK_SET) < 0) {
		pferror("Error seeking \"%s\"", name);
		return -1;
	}

	thresh =3D 0;
	if (n) {
		passname(type, pass_string);
		pfstatus("%s: pass %lu/%lu (%s)...", name, k, n, pass_string);
		if (size > VERBOSE_UPDATE)
			thresh =3D size - VERBOSE_UPDATE;
	}
		=

	if (type >=3D 0) {
		lim =3D sizeof(r);
		if ((off_t)lim > size) {
			lim =3D (size_t)size;
		}
		fillpattern(type, (unsigned char *)r, lim);
	}

	for (cursize =3D size; cursize; ) {
		/* How much to write this time? */
		lim =3D sizeof(r);
		if ((off_t)lim > cursize)
			lim =3D (size_t)cursize;
		if (type < 0)
			fillrand(s, r, lim);
		/* Loop to retry partial writes. */
		for (soff =3D 0; soff < lim; soff +=3D ssize) {
			ssize =3D write(fd, (char *)r+soff, lim-soff);
			if (ssize < 0) {
				int e =3D errno;
				pferror("Error writing \"%s\" at %lu",
					name, size-cursize+soff);
				if (e =3D=3D EBADF && fd =3D=3D 0)
					fputs(
"(Did you remember to open stdin read/write with \"<>file\"?)\n", stderr)=
;
				return -1;
			}
		}

		cursize -=3D lim;

		if (cursize <=3D thresh && n) {
			pfstatus("%s: pass %lu/%lu (%s)...%lu/%lu K",
				name, k, n, pass_string,
				(size-cursize+1023)/1024, (size+1023)/1024);
			if (thresh > VERBOSE_UPDATE)
				thresh -=3D VERBOSE_UPDATE;
			else
				thresh =3D VERBOSE_UPDATE;
		}
	}
	if (fdatasync(fd) < 0) {
		pferror("Error syncing \"%s\"", name);
		return -1;
	}
	return 0;
}

/*
 * The passes start and end with a random pass, and the passes in between=

 * are done in random order.
 * First, all possible 1-bit patterns.  There are two of them.
 * Then, all possible 2-bit patterns.  There are four, but the two
 * which are also 1-bit patterns can be omitted.
 * Then, all possible 3-bit patterns.  Again, 8-2 =3D 6.
 * Then, all possible 4-bit patterns.  16-4 =3D 12.
 *
 * Another possible enhancement is to play with the first bit of each
 * disk block to adjust the encoding phase.  There is support
 * in fillpattern for this, using bit 12 of the patterns.
 *
 * 100100100100
 *    9   2   4
 * 110110110110
 *    D   B   6
 * =

 * The basic passes are:
 * 1-bit: 0x000, 0xFFF
 * 2-bit: 0x555, 0xAAA
 * 3-bit: 0x249, 0x492, 0x6DB, 0x924, 0xB6D, 0xDB6 (+ 1-bit)
 *
 * 4-bit: 0x111, 0x222, 0x333, 0x444, 0x666, 0x777,
 *        0x888, 0x999, 0xBBB, 0xCCC, 0xDDD, 0xEEE (+ 1-bit, 2-bit)
 * Adding three random passes at the beginning, middle and end
 * produces the default 25-pass structure.
 *
 * The next extension would be to 5-bit and 6-bit patterns.
 * There are 30 uncovered 5-bit patterns and 64-8-2 =3D 46 uncovered
 * 6-bit patterns, so they would increase the time required
 * significantly.  4-bit patterns are enough for most purposes.
 *
 * The main gotcha is that this would require a trickier encoding,
 * since lcm(2,3,4) =3D 12 bits is easy to fit into an int, but
 * lcm(2,3,4,5) =3D 60 bits is not.
 *
 * One extension that is included is to complement the first bit in each
 * 512-byte block, to alter the phase pf the encoded data in the more
 * complex encodings.  This doesn't apply to MFM, so the 1-bit patterns
 * are considered part of the 3-bit ones and the 2-bit patterns are
 * considered part of the 4-bit patterns.
 *
 *
 * How does the generalization to variable numbers of passes work?
 *
 * Here's how... =

 * Have an ordered list of groups of passes.  Each group is a set.
 * Take as many groups as will fit, plus a random subset of the
 * last partial group, and place them into the passes list.
 * Then shuffle the passes list into random order and use that.
 *
 * One extra detail: if we can't include a large enough fraction of the
 * last group to be interesting, then just substitute random passes.
 *
 * If you want more passes than the entire list of groups can
 * provide, just start repeating from the beginning of the list.
 */
static int const
patterns[] =3D {
	-2,
	2, 0x000, 0xFFF,	/* 1-bit */
	2, 0x555, 0xAAA,	/* 2-bit */
	-1,
	6,         0x249, 0x492, 0x6DB, 0x924, 0xB6D, 0xDB6,	/* 3-bit */
	12,        0x111, 0x222, 0x333, 0x444,        0x666, 0x777,
	    0x888, 0x999,        0xBBB, 0xCCC, 0xDDD, 0xEEE, 	/* 4-bit */
	-1,
	/* The following patterns have the frst bit per block flipped */
	8, 0x1000, 0x1249, 0x1492, 0x16DB, 0x1924, 0x1B6D, 0x1DB6, 0x1FFF,
	14,         0x1111, 0x1222, 0x1333, 0x1444, 0x1555, 0x1666, 0x1777,
	    0x1888, 0x1999, 0x1AAA, 0x1BBB, 0x1CCC, 0x1DDD, 0x1EEE,
	-1,
	0	/* End */
};


/*
 * Generate a random wiping pass pattern with num passes.
 * This is a two-stage process.  First, the passes to include
 * are chosen, and then they are shuffled into the desired
 * order.
 */


static void
genpattern(int *dest, size_t num, struct isaac_state *s)
{
	struct irand_state r;
	size_t randpasses;
	int const *p;
	int *d;
	size_t n;
	size_t accum, top, swap;
	int k;

	if (!num)
		return;

	irand_init(&r, s);

	/* Stage 1: choose the passes to use */
	p =3D patterns;
	randpasses =3D 0;
	d =3D dest;
	n =3D num;

	for (;;) {
		k =3D *p++;
		if (!k) {	/* Loop back to the beginning */
			p =3D patterns;
		} else if (k < 0) {	/* -k random passes */
			k =3D -k;
			if ((size_t)k >=3D n) {
				randpasses +=3D n;
				n =3D 0;
				break;
			}
			randpasses +=3D k;
			n -=3D k;
		} else if ((size_t)k <=3D n) {	/* Full block of patterns */
			memcpy(d, p, k*sizeof(int));
			p +=3D k;
			d +=3D k;
			n -=3D k;
		} else if (n < 2 || 2*n < (size_t)k) { /* Finish with random */
			randpasses +=3D n;
			break;
		} else {	/* Pad out with k of the n available */
			do {
				if (n =3D=3D (size_t)k-- || irand_mod(&r, k) < n) {
					*d++ =3D *p;
					n--;
				}
				p++;
			} while (n);
			break;
		}
	}
	top =3D num - randpasses;	/* Top of initialized data */

	/* assert(d =3D dest+top); */

	/*
	 * We now have fixed patterns in the dest buffer up to
	 * "top", and we need to scramble them, with "randpasses"
	 * random passes evenly spaced among them.
	 *
	 * We want one at the beginning, one at the end, and
	 * evenly spaced in between.  To do this, we basically
	 * use Bresenham's line draw (a.k.a DDA) algorithm
	 * to draw a line with slope (randpasses-1)/(num-1).
	 * (We use a positive accumulator and count down to
	 * do this.)
	 *
	 * So for each desired output value, we do the following:
	 * - If it should be a random pass, copy the pass type
	 *   to top++, out of the way of the other passes, and
	 *   set the current pass to -1 (random).
	 * - If it should be a normal pattern pass, choose an
	 *   entry at random between here and top-1 (inclusive)
	 *   and swap the current entry with that one.
	 */

	randpasses--;	/* To speed up later math */
	accum =3D randpasses;
	for (n =3D 0; n < num; n++) {
		if (accum <=3D randpasses) {
			accum +=3D num-1;
			dest[top++] =3D dest[n];
			dest[n] =3D -1;
		} else {
			swap =3D n + irand_mod(&r, top-n-1);
			k =3D dest[n];
			dest[n] =3D dest[swap];
			dest[swap] =3D k;
		}
		accum -=3D randpasses;
	}
	/* assert(top =3D=3D num); */

	memset(&r, 0, sizeof(r));
}


/* Flags definition.  Bit numbers here correspond to positions below! */
#define FLAG_DEVICES	1
#define FLAG_FORCE	2
#define FLAG_PRESERVE	4
#define FLAG_VERBOSE	8
#define FLAG_EXACT	16
#define FLAG_ZERO	32
static char const simpleflags[] =3D "dfpvxz";	/* Same order as above */

#define FLAG_EXTRAVERBOSE 256

/*
 * The core routine to actually do the work.  This overwrites the first
 * size bytes of the given fd.  Returns -1 on error, 0 on success with
 * regular files, and 1 on success with non-regular files.
 */
static int
wipefd(int fd, char const *name, struct isaac_state *s,
	size_t passes, unsigned flags)
{
	size_t i;
	struct stat st;
	off_t size;
	unsigned long n;
	int *passarray;

	if (!passes)
		passes =3D DEFAULT_PASSES;

	n =3D 0;
	if (flags & FLAG_VERBOSE)
		n =3D passes + ((flags & FLAG_ZERO) !=3D 0);

	if (fstat(fd, &st)) {
		pferror("Can't fstat file \"%s\"", name);
		return -1;
	}

	/* Check for devices */
	if (!S_ISREG(st.st_mode) && !(flags & FLAG_DEVICES)) {
		fprintf(stderr,
"\"%s\" is not a regular file: use -d to enable operations on devices\n",=

			name);
		return -1;
	}

	/* Allocate pass array */
	passarray =3D malloc(passes * sizeof(int));
	if (!passarray) {
		pferror("Can't alllocate array for %lu passes",
		        (unsigned long)passes);
		return -1;
	}

	size =3D st.st_size;
	if (!size) {
		/* Reluctant to talk?  Apply thumbscrews. */
		size =3D sizefd(fd);
	} else if (st.st_blksize && !(flags & FLAG_EXACT)) {
		/* Round up to the next st_blksize to include "slack" */
		size +=3D st.st_blksize - 1 - (size-1) % st.st_blksize;
	}

	/* Use the file itself as seed material. */
	(void)isaac_seedfd(s, fd, size);

	/* Schedule the passes in random order. */
	genpattern(passarray, passes, s);

	/* Do the work */
	for (i =3D 0; i < passes; i++) {
		if (dopass(fd, name, size, passarray[i], s, i+1, n) < 0) {
			memset(passarray, 0, passes*sizeof(int));
			free(passarray);
			return -1;
		}
		if (flags & FLAG_EXTRAVERBOSE)
			flushstatus();
	}

	memset(passarray, 0, passes*sizeof(int));
	free(passarray);

	if (flags & FLAG_ZERO)
		if (dopass(fd, name, size, 0, s, passes+1, n) < 0)
			return -1;

	return !S_ISREG(st.st_mode);
}


/* Characters allowed in a file name - a safe universal set. */
static char const nameset[] =3D
"0123456789abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ_+=3D%@#."=
;

/*
 * This increments the name, considering it as a big-endian base-N number=

 * with the digits taken from nameset.  Characters not in the nameset
 * are considered to come before nameset[0].
 *
 * It's not obvious, but this will explode if name[0..len-1] contains
 * any 0 bytes.
 *
 * This returns the carry (1 on overflow).
 */
static int
incname(char *name, unsigned len)
{
	char const *p;

	if (!len)
		return -1;

	p =3D strchr(nameset, name[--len]);
	/* If the character is not found, replace it with a 0 digit */
	if (!p) {
		name[len] =3D nameset[0];
		return 0;
	}
	/* If this character has a successor, use it */
	if (p[1]) {
		name[len] =3D p[1];
		return 0;
	}
	/* Otherwise, set this digit to 0 and increment the prefix */
	name[len] =3D nameset[0];
	return incname(name, len);
}

/*
 * Repeatedly rename a file with shorter and shorter names,
 * to obliterate all traces of the file name on any system that
 * adds a trailing delimiter to on-disk file names and reuses
 * the same directory slot.  Finally, delete it.
 * The passed-in filename is changed to the current filename.
 * (Which is deleted if this function succeeds, but is still present if
 * it fails for some reason.)
 *
 * The main loop is written carefully to not get stuck if all possible
 * names of a given length are occupied.  It counts down the length from
 * the original to 0.  While the length is non-zero, it tries to find an
 * unused file name of the given length.  It continues until either the
 * name is available and the rename succeeds, or it runs out of names
 * to try (incname() wraps and returns 1).  Finally, it deletes the file.=

 *
 * Note that rename() and remove() are both in the ANSI C standard,
 * so this is NOT Unix-specific.
 *
 * To force the directory data out, we try to open() the directory and
 * invoke fdatasync() on it.  This is rather non-standard, so we don't
 * inisit that it works, just fall back to a global sync() in thet case.
 */
int
wipename(char *oldname, unsigned flags)
{
	char *newname, *origname =3D 0;
	char *base;	/* Pointer to filename component, after directories. */
	unsigned len;
	int err;
	int dirfd;	/* Try to open directory to sync *it* */

	pfstatus("%s: deleting", oldname);

	newname =3D strdup(oldname);	/* This is a malloc */
	if (!newname) {
		pferror("malloc failed");
		return -1;
	}
	if (flags & FLAG_VERBOSE) {
		origname =3D strdup(oldname);
		if (!origname) {
			pferror("malloc failed");
			free(newname);
			return -1;
		}
	}

	/* Find the file name portion */
	base =3D strrchr(newname, '/');
	/* Temporary hackery to get a directory fd */
	if (base) {
		*base =3D '\0';
		dirfd =3D open(newname, O_RDONLY);
		*base =3D '/';
	} else {
		dirfd =3D open(".", O_RDONLY);
	}
	base =3D base ? base+1 : newname;
	len =3D strlen(base);

	while (len) {
		memset(base, nameset[0], len);
		base[len] =3D 0;
		do {
			if (access(newname, F_OK) < 0
			    && !rename(oldname, newname)) {
				if (dirfd < 0 || fdatasync(dirfd) < 0)
					sync();	/* Force directory out */
				if (origname) {
					pfstatus("%s: renamed to \"%s\"",
						origname, newname);
					if (flags & FLAG_EXTRAVERBOSE)
						flushstatus();
				}
				memcpy(oldname+(base-newname), newname, len+1);
				break;
			}
		} while (!incname(base, len));
		len--;
	}
	free(newname);
	err =3D remove(oldname);
	if (dirfd < 0 || fdatasync(dirfd) < 0)
		sync();
	close(dirfd);
	if (origname) {
		if (!err)
			pfstatus("%s: deleted", origname);
		free(origname);
	}
	return err;
}


/*
 * Finally, the function that actually takes a filename and grinds
 * it into hamburger.  Returns 1 if it was not a regular file.
 *
 * Detail to note: since we do not restore errno to EACCES after
 * a failed chmod, we end up printing the error code from the chmod.
 * This is probably either EACCES again or EPERM, which both give
 * reasonable error messages.  But it might be better to change that.
 */
static int
wipefile(char *name, struct isaac_state *s, size_t passes, unsigned flags=
)
{
	int err, fd;

	fd =3D open(name, O_RDWR);
	if (fd < 0 && errno =3D=3D EACCES && flags & FLAG_FORCE) {
		if (chmod(name, 0600) >=3D 0)
			fd =3D open(name, O_RDWR);
	}
	if (fd < 0) {
		pferror("Unable to open \"%s\"", name);
		return -1;
	}
	=

	err =3D wipefd(fd, name, s, passes, flags);
	close(fd);

	/* Wipe the name and unlink - regular files only, no devices! */
	if (err =3D=3D 0 && !(flags & FLAG_PRESERVE)) {
		err =3D wipename(name, flags);
		if (err < 0)
			pferror("Unable to delete file \"%s\"", name);
	}
	return err;
}

/* Command-line parsing.  Should add some help and so on. */
int
main(int argc, char **argv)
{
	struct isaac_state s;
	int err =3D 0;
	int no_more_opts =3D 0;
	unsigned flags =3D 0;
	char const *p;
	char *p2;	/* Actually a const ptr, but kludged... */
	unsigned long passes =3D 0;
	unsigned wipes =3D 0;	/* How many files have we actually wiped? */

	argv0 =3D argv[0];

	isaac_seed(&s);

	while (--argc && !err) {
		p =3D *++argv;
		if (no_more_opts || *p !=3D '-') {
			/* Plain old filename */
			/* Note that this overwrites *argv! */
			if (wipefile(*argv, &s, (size_t)passes, flags) < 0)
				err =3D 1;
			flushstatus();
			wipes++;
			continue;
		}

		/* Parse option */
		if (p[1] =3D=3D '\0') {	/* "-": stdin */
			if (wipefd(0, *argv, &s, (size_t)passes, flags) < 0)
				err =3D 1;
			flushstatus();
			wipes++;
			continue;
		}
		if (p[1] =3D=3D '-') {	/* "--long_option" */
			if (p[2] =3D=3D '\0') {
				no_more_opts =3D 1;
			} else if (strcmp(p+2, "help") =3D=3D 0) {
				puts(
"Usage: sterilize [OPTIONS] FILE [...]\n"
"Delete a file securely, first overwriting it to hide its contents.\n"
"\n"
"  -          Sterilize standard input (but don't delete it)\n"
"             This will error unless you use <>file, a safety feature\n"
"  -NUM       Overwrite NUM times instead of the default (25)\n"
"  -d         Allow operation on devices (devices are never deleted)\n"
"  -f         Force, change permissions to allow writing if necessary\n"
"  -p         Preserve, do not delete file after overwriting\n"
"  -v         Verbose, print progress\n"
"  -x         Exact, do not round file sizes up to the next full block\n"=

"  -z         Add a final overwrite with zeros to hide sterilization\n"
"  --         End of options; following filenames may begin with -\n"
"  --help     Display this help and exit\n"
"  --version  Print version information and exit");
				return 0;	/* Immediate quit */
			} else if (strcmp(p+2, "version") =3D=3D 0) {
				puts(version_string);
				return 0;	/* Immediate quit */
			} else {
				fprintf(stderr, "%s: Unknown option %s\n",
					argv0, p);
				err =3D 1;
				break;
			}
			continue;
		}
		/* Short options */
		while (*++p) {
			if ((*p =3D=3D 'v') && (flags & FLAG_VERBOSE))
				flags |=3D FLAG_EXTRAVERBOSE;
			p2 =3D strchr(simpleflags, *p);
			if (p2) {
				flags |=3D 1 << (p2-simpleflags);
				continue;
			}
			if (*p >=3D '0' && *p <=3D '9') {
				passes =3D strtoul(p, &p2, 0);

				if ((word32)passes !=3D passes ||
				    (size_t)(passes*sizeof(int))/sizeof(int)
					!=3D passes)
				{
					fprintf(stderr,
						"%s: Too many passes: -%s\n",
						argv0, p);
					err =3D 1;
					break;
				}
				p =3D p2-1;
				continue;
			}
			fprintf(stderr, "%s: Unknown option -%s\n",
				argv0, p);
			err =3D 1;
			break;
		}
	}

	/* Just on general principles, wipe s. */
	memset(&s, 0, sizeof(s));

	if (!wipes && !err) {
		fprintf(stderr, "%s: no filename specified\n"
		                "Try \"%s --help\" for more information.\n",
			argv0, argv0);
		err =3D 1;
	}

	return err;
}

--==_Exmh_8824379230--




From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb 14 17:17:28 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Erasing Disks
References: <85256882.00680AB3.00@knotes.kodak.com>
	<4.2.0.58.20000213050729.00c88540@127.0.0.1>
From: Darrell Fuhriman <darrell@grumblesmurf.net>
In-Reply-To: Greg Rose's message of "Sun, 13 Feb 2000 05:08:55 +1100"
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Greg Rose <ggr@qualcomm.com> writes:

> "Secure deletion of data from magnetic and semiconductor memory" (IIRC), 
> Peter Gutmann, proc. 6th USENIX Security Symposium, July 1996.

I seem to remember Peter's comment at the presentation was
something to the effect of "Probably the best thing you can do is
turn your hard disks into a heap of molten slag."

Darrell




From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb 14 22:55:38 2000
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Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:54:06 -0800
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From: Bruce Hamilton <bhami@netcom.com>
Subject: Scripts for noting disk failure?
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Why is it that all the vendors have complex high-availability disk 
solutions, but they don't bother to provide simple shell scripts to check 
for when a disk has failed and send email? My Auspex has some sort of cron 
that can give a cryptic message about an I/O failure at 11:45 PM each 
night, but it would be a lot nicer if it could do an hourly check and spit 
out a detailed message of the form "disk X has been replaced by spare Y in 
RAID group Z".

Before I re-invent wheels, I'd like to poll this group for scripts that 
work on:

Solaris
   DiskSuite
   Veritas Volume Manager
   RM6
HP-UX
   MirrorDisk/UX
Auspex 1.9.1
Andataco/nStor
   various RAID boxes
...anything else?

If you reply to me, I'll summarize back to the group in a few days.

Thanks,

--Bruce (Bruce Hamilton, Redondo Beach, CA)
bhami@netcom.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~bhami/



From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb 15 06:28:59 2000
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To: Sabrina Downard <viv@ziggurat.org>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Solaris 7 kernel crash dumps
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What do you need analyze wise?  Panic is a little obsolete, but a lot of the
basic stuff hasn't changed _too_ much.  The best bet is just to look at the 
panic string and the message buffer ($<msgbuf in adb) and then troll through
sunsolve looking for the error.  Unless you have a source license, there
probably isn't really going to be a whole lot more you can do anyway...
However, drop me a mail if you need more help...

On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Sabrina Downard wrote:

> Is there anyone out there who is dying for an opportunity to help someone
> else learn how to analyze a Solaris 7 kernel core dump?  8-)
> 
> I've got the Panic! book and am finding that its Solaris 2.3 information
> isn't quite as helpful with Sol7 as I was hoping I'd find it, as chicken
> as I am to delve into this.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any thoughts or pointers.  :)
> 



From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb 16 12:42:45 2000
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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:42:19 CST
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I received a message from the Jobs list with a contact person listed  at 
University of Nevada-Reno. This person was extremely uninformed and not very 
nice either.  Is this typical or SOP?  Is there somewhere I can register a 
complaint about a SAGE Job posting?

Should I get a life?

James
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 17 02:39:50 2000
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From: Benjy Feen <benjy@feen.com>
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Subject: Process documentation as theatre?
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Esteemed colleagues: please feel free to take this as seriously or as
lightly as you choose.

Lately I've been thinking about scripts.  As in theatre, not perl. 

Theatre in the Elizabethan period wasn't done with scripts as we know
them; each actor had a script which contained just his own character's
lines. Of course, they still needed a way to figure out when to start
talking, so each speech was preceded by the cue to wait for. There'd be a
few words from someone else's line, and then your own.  As long as you
knew what to wait for and could deliver the last bit of your own lines
properly, everyone could act their parts perfectly, improvise freely, and
still be blissfully ignorant of most of everyone else's roles.  The only
one who saw the entire script was the author himself.

What might we learn if we applied these principles to the operation of the
high-tech corporation? After all, the corporate world uses scripts, just
like the theatrical world, although in business we call the scripts
"process documents" and the cues are things like "User submits trouble
ticket".

Unfortunately, some of the people who write the process documents don't
follow the simple methods Shakespeare used. For one thing, they're usually
just trying to jot down some of the lines of a play which already exists:
a heavily improvisational play that's been around for years and much of
which nobody actually understands anymore. The process documentors have
probably never seen this play all the way through, much less acted in it.
At best they've had the play described to them, and at worst they dream up
their own play and present it as an improved version of the real one.  

And without a complete script of the real play, including every line, its
speaker, and the lines which come before and after, how could anyone not
directly involved at every step possibly see the play as a whole? How
would they write the abbreviated scripts for each actor? How would they
know which parts don't make any sense at all and which will be explained
later on in the play? How will the vial of poison appear in the last act
if the "author" himself doesn't know where it comes from?  SOMEONE HAS TO
KNOW THE WHOLE STORY, and it had better be the person writing the master
script if you have any intent of improving the play or at least fixing the
really awful parts.

With business management theory of the past having been so deeply
influenced by ideas borrowed from martial science and professional sports,
I predict that the new modern management will draw from the realms of arts
and entertainment.  In anticipation of this trend, I present below a
prototype of the process document of the future.

This example may show that by recording the reality of the process "in the
wild", grim as it may be, the inefficiencies of the existing system can be
identified and opportunities for radical improvement could be seized.  
Assuming, of course, that anyone bothers to do so.  Ultimately, someone
has to care enough to fix what's broken, or else the effort was purely
frivolous.  Which might be okay too, actually.

Anyway, here ends the deep thinking.  What follows is somewhat less than
serious but I had a lot of fun writing it, so I'll tack it on.  If anyone
objects to content like this on sage-members, please let me know and I'll
refrain in the future.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                             Monkeybagel.com 
                   Systems Hardware Integration Tasks

OVERVIEW
The Systems Hardware Integration Task document is intended to provide
a complete transactional workflow model of the processes by which
Monkeybagel.com and its designated agents will perform duties pertaining
directly to the deployment of system services to its internal customers.

PROCESS SPECIFICATION 

[CUSTOMER defines REQUIREMENTS based on BUSINESS NEEDS and delivers them to a
PROJECT MANAGER.] 

FINANCE: It takes us too long to process tax forms.  It should only take
an hour so we can make it home in time for Wheel of Fortune.

PROJECT MANAGER: Okay. 

[PM communicates REQUIREMENTS to ENGINEER for HARDWARE SELECTION.]

PM: They need their taxes done in an hour.

ENGINEER:  They should buy a Silicon Graphics Octane. It looks like a gumdrop!

[PROJECT MANAGER brings REQUIREMENTS and HARDWARE SELECTION to FINANCE.]

PM: The Finance Department needs this to do their taxes. As you can see,
it looks like a gumdrop.

FINANCE:  I hate gumdrops.

PM: Oh.

FINANCE: We acquired a circus and a deli last week. You can use anything you
find in their inventory.  Those Finance guys need to curb their spending.

PM: But they didn't have any computers! And YOU'RE the Finance guys!

FINANCE: Go away, Mr. Gumdrop. We gotta go watch Wheel.

[PM returns to ENGINEER with APPROVED HARDWARE.]

PM: It's... well, it's a monkey.  Pretty big one, though!  And a
bagel. Well, most of a bagel.  Bad monkey!

MONKEY: Eep!

ENGINEER: Yay!

BAGEL: Oy.

[ENGINEER designs SYSTEM ARCHITECTURE.]

ENGINEER: Monkey on top of bagel. No. Monkey beside bagel. Nah.
Bagel on top of... wait!  I've got it! 

[ENGINEER delivers HARDWARE and ARCHITECTURE to SYSADMIN for BUILD.]

ENGINEER: Look, I got us a monkey! Let's stick him in this bagel and 
then he'll do our taxes!

SYSADMIN: A monkey will not fit in a bagel. [demonstrates] 

MONKEY:   Nice. Real nice. Does your mother know what you do for a living?

SYSADMIN: [whispers] Yes. She tells the neighbors I died in 1997.

MONKEY:   I don't blame her.

ENGINEER: You're right, it won't fit. We need to fold the monkey.

SYSADMIN: Could you explain about the taxes bit?

ENGINEER: Taxes! Monkeybagels do taxes in an hour! Tax-doing monkeybagels!

SYSADMIN: [nodding slowly] Ah. I see. Monkeys and bagels. Taxes. Right. 

ENGINEER: Now get to it! We only have three days!

[SYSADMIN initiates BUILD PROCEDURE by engaging HARDWARE SUPPORT.]

HARDWARE: Do you have any experience in accountancy?

MONKEY:   Eep!

HARDWARE: Yes or no?

MONKEY:   Eep!

HARDWARE: I have here a straight razor and a quart of gin. I stop cutting when
the gin's all gone.

MONKEY:   I used to cook the books for a defense contractor in Iowa.

SYSADMIN: You? But you're a monkey!

MONKEY:   And you died in '97. You think you're the only one with a past?

SYSADMIN: Point taken.

HARDWARE: What's your standard consulting rate?

SYSADMIN: Oh, gosh, it's been so long since I freelanced, um, forty, no, FIFTY-- 
HARDWARE: I'm asking the monkey, dumbass.

MONKEY:   Two thousand a day plus expenses, travel and meals included.

SYSADMIN: Two thousand a DAY?  For a MONKEY?

MONKEY:   Twenty-five hundred. You want me to go three? Keep it up.

HARDWARE: Tell you what.  We'll give you that bagel and we won't cut
your thumbs off.

MONKEY:   That should do nicely.

HARDWARE: Deal.

HARDWARE SUPPORT delivers HARDWARE for DEPLOYMENT. HARDWARE SUPPORT goes
to find something fuzzy and cute to disfigure.

SYSADMIN: Phew! That was easier than I thought.

MONKEY:   I suffer from chronic attacks of severe diarrhea. Also, I got
hooked on smack during my second tour of duty in 'Nam and need to shoot up
three times a day or I go into convulsions.  Plus I'm vegan, but I require
fresh beef daily to comply with the tenets of my religion. And could you
do something about the lighting in here? Maybe some full-spectrum lamps?
Otherwise I'll get suicidally depressed.  And I need lots of pickles,
because when I'm doing taxes I need to have my feet rubbed with pickles
or I start transposing nines and twos at random.  The pickles are key.

SYSADMIN: No problem.

MONKEY:   Er, what?

SYSADMIN: I said I'll handle it. Anything else?

MONKEY:   You know, I kinda expected more of a fight.

SYSADMIN: Let me check my understanding of the situation.  Here we are,
in the final phase of a futile and worthless project, and you just blurted
out a barrage of last-minute demands based on ridiculous and contradictory
premises and implied that if I failed to meet these conditions then your
own ability to work would be impaired in such a way as to impede or halt
the work of anyone nearby, and it would look to everyone as though it
were completely my fault.

MONKEY:   Right.  So what's your point?

SYSADMIN: I used to provide system support for a team of database
administrators.  One time, out of the blue, for no apparent reason, they
called up a senior vice-president and told him that they needed root
access to all of our servers so they could run the 'ls' command and if
they didn't get that permission then nobody in the company would get paid
that month.  In the end I had to tell them that if they ever had the need,
they could call me at any time, day or night, and I would at that time
tell them the root password. They agreed and were happy. They called the
first night and used the password to set up a porn site on our firewall. I
shut the site down and notified our security guys. I got fired when our
security guys found out I'd given out the password over the phone and
reasoned that the database people wouldn't have been so obvious so it must
have been a Russian hacker. So let us now return to the matter at hand,
about which I have only one question: What kind of pickles?

MONKEY:   You know, I'm basically fine with just the bagel.  Forget I asked.

SYSADMIN: Thanks.

MONKEY:   You ever consider another career?

SYSADMIN: Never! I love the people I work with too much.

MONKEY:   You're completely out of your freaking mind. You know that,
right?

SYSADMIN: Naturally.  It wouldn't be as tragic if I weren't so painfully aware.

MONKEY:   Right. I'll get going on the taxes. Go take a Xanax or something,
you look fried.
 
[SYSADMIN completes HARDWARE DEPLOYMENT and notifies ENGINEER.]

SYSADMIN: Here's the damn monkey. He likes pumpernickel.  I'm going to go
get a mocha.

ENGINEER: We did it! Monkeybagels for everyone!

[ENGINEER notifies PM, then creates Monkeybagel Hardware Standard and
recommends that all new systems be engineered to the same specifications.]


PM:       Your system's been deployed.  Please let us know if we can be
of further service.

FINANCE:  We need somebody to fix the diving board on the corporate
swimming pool.

PM:       We have a corporate swimming pool?

FINANCE:  No, WE have one.  And the diving board's broken.  Get somebody to
weld it.

PM:       Do we employ any scuba divers with welding experience?

FINANCE:  No.  But we just bought a pet shop and there's some really cute
puppies in there. See what that engineer of yours can do with them --
he's really something!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly, opportunities for improvement are present in this script.
For example, it would be trivial for a quality engineer to identify the
sysadmin's role as being redundant and minimal and therefore eliminate
the job completely.  

If you have any feedback, I'd love to hear it.

Thanks!



--
Benjy Feen | benjy@monkeybagel.com | http://www.monkeybagel.com
--



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 17 08:40:20 2000
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In response to popular demand and a few thinly-veiled threats, I've posted
"Process Documentation as Theatre" on Monkeybagel:

http://www.monkeybagel.com/process.html

--
Benjy Feen | benjy@monkeybagel.com | http://www.monkeybagel.com
--



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 17 09:01:31 2000
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Message-ID: <38AC293D.FC472F4B@gs.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:00:45 -0500
From: "Joseph Boyer Jr." <Joseph.Boyer@gs.com>
Organization: Goldman, Sachs and Company
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First off i know that auto-logins are a security hole, but as things
are, the powers that be are having me implement auto-logins for some of
our departments.  I am against doing this, but it is out of my hands.

My question:  does or has anyone know of a  way of doing this with
dtlogin. A more secure implementation would be perferred, but at this
point, any solution would be a good one.  I can implement auto-logins
using another login manger, xdm for example, but I want to use the
native login manager that sun supplies within solaris.  Any ideas or
thoughts would me most appreciated.  Thanks for everyone's patients in
dealing with this one.

Regards,
joe



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 17 10:04:56 2000
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From: "Kavitsky, James" <james.kavitsky@dsl.net>
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:04:37 -0500
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Hello Fellow SAGEers,

  I'm interested in hearing your opinions Re: NIS vs. NIS+. I'm managing a
small
set of Solaris boxes (10) on our company's internal network. Keeping passwd
and
other files in sync is already becoming a pain, and I need to move to a
centralized
management scheme. It seems that Sun believes that NIS+ is the final answer
to
this problem, but a few of my fellow admins think that I would be much
better
off with plain old NIS. I have some experience with NIS, and none with NIS+,
and
based upon my reading about NIS+ is seems like a bit of overkill for the
small
set of systems that I am responsible for. A penny for your thoughts?

-jimk


From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 17 10:22:24 2000
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:21:45 -0700 (MST)
From: Matthew Crosby <Crosby@colorado.edu>
To: "Kavitsky, James" <james.kavitsky@dsl.net>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: NIS vs NIS+
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Over which timeframe are you looking at?  Solaris 8 now supports LDAP, and
most other unixes have for a while, which is probably a better solution then
either.  It's an open standard (tm) which everyone seems to be moving to,
lots of producst, etc etc etc.  It's what we are looking at very strongly.

NIS works, but has big downsides in terms of security and redundency; for 
instance, we run it in brodcast mode because if you don't, it takes about
5 minutes (for Solaris at least) to fall over to a new server, but broadcast 
mode causes it's own problems:  Anyone can answer, which aside from the 
security implications means that if someone, eg, starts up a server by 
accident with bogus data you can hose machines.
NIS+ really sucked last time I used it (flaky, unreliable) but I've heard
it's got a lot better.



On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Kavitsky, James wrote:

> 
> 
> Hello Fellow SAGEers,
> 
>   I'm interested in hearing your opinions Re: NIS vs. NIS+. I'm managing a
> small
> set of Solaris boxes (10) on our company's internal network. Keeping passwd
> and
> other files in sync is already becoming a pain, and I need to move to a
> centralized
> management scheme. It seems that Sun believes that NIS+ is the final answer
> to
> this problem, but a few of my fellow admins think that I would be much
> better
> off with plain old NIS. I have some experience with NIS, and none with NIS+,
> and
> based upon my reading about NIS+ is seems like a bit of overkill for the
> small
> set of systems that I am responsible for. A penny for your thoughts?
> 
> -jimk
> 



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 17 11:58:56 2000
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Reply-To: <Lurker@naoj.org>
From: "Camron W. Fox" <cwfox@fujitsu.com>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Sun Management Center
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:57:37 -1000
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Folks,

	Does/has anyone out there use/used Sun MC??? If so, what is/was your take
on the product? I'm out there looking for some kind of Configuration
Management software to keep track of all the changes that are happening on
our systems and I could really use some input. I'd like something that would
at least track everything we have, if not do some management, but I know
that's a pipe dream. Our systems run a variety of OS platforms to include
UXP/V (VPP5000), Solaris, Tru64 Unix, IRIX and Windows NT/98/95. Any
feedback would be most appreciated.

Much Aloha,
Camron

Camron W. Fox
High Performance Computing Group
Fujitsu America, INC.
E-mail:			cwfox@fujitsu.com
Phone:			(808) 934-4102
Pager:			(888) 733-8726


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From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 17 12:34:31 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: autologin with dtlogin on solaris 
In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:00:45 EST.
	<38AC293D.FC472F4B@gs.com> 
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:34:22 -0800
From: Lee Ann Goldstein <leeann@rand.org>
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Sun supplies xdm. They just don't tell you how to use it. I used
to have it configured on a bunch of SunOS 4.1.3 systems quite a
number of years back, though I haven't set it up on a Solaris system.

/usr/openwin/lib/xdm has all the config files, and the binary is
/usr/openwinb/bin/xdm.

Have fun.

Lee Ann

--Your message was: (from "Joseph Boyer Jr.")
> First off i know that auto-logins are a security hole, but as things
> are, the powers that be are having me implement auto-logins for some of
> our departments.  I am against doing this, but it is out of my hands.
> 
> My question:  does or has anyone know of a  way of doing this with
> dtlogin. A more secure implementation would be perferred, but at this
> point, any solution would be a good one.  I can implement auto-logins
> using another login manger, xdm for example, but I want to use the
> native login manager that sun supplies within solaris.  Any ideas or
> thoughts would me most appreciated.  Thanks for everyone's patients in
> dealing with this one.
> 
> Regards,
> joe

--
Lee Ann Goldstein, Computing Services
RAND Corp., Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
leeann@rand.org


From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 17 13:00:19 2000
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To: "Kavitsky, James" <james.kavitsky@dsl.net>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: NIS vs NIS+
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I've never used NIS+, but I know people who have, and the main negative
thing I've heard is that if you're not very careful, it's too easy to
completely hose your database.

I've used NIS, and hate it, for a variety of reasons.

At my last job, we were behind a big monster corporate firewall, so we used
rdist and a /.rhosts file to distribute the user database files from a
master server out to the clients. At my current job, we're a university
(Caltech) without a campus-wide firewall, so the clusters I run are
currently using rsync over SSH with a null-passphrased RSA key to accomplish
the same effect. This isn't as secure as it could be, but isn't too bad as
such things go; it's certainly no worse than vanilla NIS.

I'm working on making the scripts that I use right now suitable for
publication, and might try to present them at a future LISA, if I have time
and permission from Caltech (who technically owns this stuff).

                                      -Josh (irilyth@infersys.com)


From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 17 13:37:48 2000
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Reply-To: <Lurker@naoj.org>
From: "Camron W. Fox" <cwfox@fujitsu.com>
To: "Kavitsky, James" <james.kavitsky@dsl.net>, <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: RE: NIS vs NIS+
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:36:05 -1000
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Here's a good hint. Sun won't even use NIS+ in their own architectures. I
don't know about you, but I'd be hesitant to use a product that the company
itself thinks is too much of a pain. If you don't need to concern yourself
with the security issues and are only managing 10 boxes internally, NIS
should be a satisfactory solution.

Camron W. Fox
Project Leader for Systems Engineering
Hilo Office
High Performance Computing Group
Fujitsu America, INC.
e-mail:		cwfox@fujitsu.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
> [mailto:owner-sage-members@usenix.org]On Behalf Of Kavitsky, James
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 8:05 AM
> To: sage-members@usenix.org
> Subject: NIS vs NIS+
>
>
>
>
> Hello Fellow SAGEers,
>
>   I'm interested in hearing your opinions Re: NIS vs. NIS+. I'm managing a
> small
> set of Solaris boxes (10) on our company's internal network.
> Keeping passwd
> and
> other files in sync is already becoming a pain, and I need to move to a
> centralized
> management scheme. It seems that Sun believes that NIS+ is the
> final answer
> to
> this problem, but a few of my fellow admins think that I would be much
> better
> off with plain old NIS. I have some experience with NIS, and none
> with NIS+,
> and
> based upon my reading about NIS+ is seems like a bit of overkill for the
> small
> set of systems that I am responsible for. A penny for your thoughts?
>
> -jimk
>



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 17 13:47:14 2000
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:46:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Matthew Crosby <Crosby@colorado.edu>
cc: "Kavitsky, James" <james.kavitsky@dsl.net>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: NIS vs NIS+
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GHP.4.05.10002171114040.18043-100000@nagina.cs.colorado.edu>
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Hi--

I have looked at the LDAP model and think it's really cool. However if
I had a choice between NIS and NIS+ I would go with NIS -- NIS+ is not fun
and if you grow, it will become harder to manage. You can move the NIS
stuff to /etc/yp instead of /etc so you won't have your system accounts or
root in NIS.

--Melinda :o)

On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Matthew Crosby wrote:

> 
> Over which timeframe are you looking at?  Solaris 8 now supports LDAP, and
> most other unixes have for a while, which is probably a better solution then
> either.  It's an open standard (tm) which everyone seems to be moving to,
> lots of producst, etc etc etc.  It's what we are looking at very strongly.
> 
> NIS works, but has big downsides in terms of security and redundency; for 
> instance, we run it in brodcast mode because if you don't, it takes about
> 5 minutes (for Solaris at least) to fall over to a new server, but broadcast 
> mode causes it's own problems:  Anyone can answer, which aside from the 
> security implications means that if someone, eg, starts up a server by 
> accident with bogus data you can hose machines.
> NIS+ really sucked last time I used it (flaky, unreliable) but I've heard
> it's got a lot better.
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Kavitsky, James wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Hello Fellow SAGEers,
> > 
> >   I'm interested in hearing your opinions Re: NIS vs. NIS+. I'm managing a
> > small
> > set of Solaris boxes (10) on our company's internal network. Keeping passwd
> > and
> > other files in sync is already becoming a pain, and I need to move to a
> > centralized
> > management scheme. It seems that Sun believes that NIS+ is the final answer
> > to
> > this problem, but a few of my fellow admins think that I would be much
> > better
> > off with plain old NIS. I have some experience with NIS, and none with NIS+,
> > and
> > based upon my reading about NIS+ is seems like a bit of overkill for the
> > small
> > set of systems that I am responsible for. A penny for your thoughts?
> > 
> > -jimk
> > 
> 



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 17 13:52:58 2000
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From: "Stephen Beaton" <sbeaton@nortelnetworks.com>
Reply-To: "Stephen Beaton" <sbeaton@nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: re:Sun Management Center
To: sage-members <sage-members@usenix.org>
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Hi Camron,

   I would be interested in any info you gather on this as well. Could you
post a follow-up to the group?

Thanks much,
Stephen

Sr Systems Analyst, Nortel Networks.
sbeaton@nortelnetworks.com

In message "Sun Management Center", 
Camron W. Fox <cwfox@fujitsu.com> writes:

>Folks,
>
>	Does/has anyone out there use/used Sun MC??? If so, what is/was
>your take on the product? I'm out there looking for some kind of
>Configuration Management software to keep track of all the changes that
>are happening on our systems and I could really use some input. I'd like
>something that would at least track everything we have, if not do some
>management, but I know that's a pipe dream. Our systems run a variety of
>OS platforms to include UXP/V (VPP5000), Solaris, Tru64 Unix, IRIX and
>Windows NT/98/95. Any feedback would be most appreciated.
>
>Much Aloha,
>Camron  
>
>Camron W. Fox 
>High Performance Computing Group 
>Fujitsu America, INC. 
>E-mail:			cwfox@fujitsu.com 
>Phone:			(808) 934-4102 
>Pager:			(888) 733-8726  
>
>
>  [Part 2,  text/html  ~47 lines]
>  [Not Shown. Use the attachment viewer to view this part]
>





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	from Matthew Crosby at "Feb 17, 0 11:21:45 am"
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[ Matthew Crosby writes ]
> 
> Over which timeframe are you looking at?  Solaris 8 now supports LDAP, and
> most other unixes have for a while, which is probably a better solution then
> either.  It's an open standard (tm) which everyone seems to be moving to,
> lots of producst, etc etc etc.  It's what we are looking at very strongly.

but how does solaris 8 LDAP encryption/general security compare to NIS+?



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Slashdot interview with Dave Dittrich on DDoSs. See

  http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/02/16/1836215&mode=thread

in answer to the question containing "the intersection of the sets".

I wonder how many CEOs and others holding hefty pursestrings read /.?
----
Ruth Milner                             NRAO                 Socorro NM
Assistant to the Director -       rmilner@nrao.edu          505-835-7282
  Computing                                             FAX 505-835-7027


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Camron asks,

> 	Does/has anyone out there use/used Sun MC??? If so, what is/was your take
> on the product? I'm out there looking for some kind of Configuration
> Management software to keep track of all the changes that are happening on
> our systems and I could really use some input. I'd like something that would
> at least track everything we have, if not do some management, but I know
> that's a pipe dream. Our systems run a variety of OS platforms to include
> UXP/V (VPP5000), Solaris, Tru64 Unix, IRIX and Windows NT/98/95. Any
> feedback would be most appreciated.


Forgive me if I slip into Inscrutable Jaded Zen Sysadmin mode here.  It's
been a long week. 

What is the problem that needs to be fixed?  If the problem is that your
beloved peers like to chug Thunderbird and then set up Quakeworld servers
on your database hosts, I would humbly submit that the only way MC will
help is if you use the manual as a bludgeon. However, I infer from your
mildly frantic tone that you're responsible in some way for a teeming
horde of never-before-tracked systems, either as one of the administrators
or in fulfilling a role as a meta-administrator (inventory management,
change management). I'll proceed with that assumption.  If it is in fact
a T-Bird/bludgeon kind of thing, stop reading now.

                                -----

Still with me? Onward!

If you simply want to know what you own and how it's configured, then MC
may assist you in that.

If your problem is that you want to know the physical location and other
data not a property of the hardware or OS, then any centralized management
tool will be worthless if you don't have stringent procedures to capture
data from every change made to every server at the time the change is
made, including the server build itself.  For example, consider this data
from the MIB of a Sun server:

system.sysContact.0 = "System administrator"
system.sysLocation.0 = "System administrators office"

MC tells us that the name of the person to contact for this host is some
guy named System Administrator. Sounds Dutch.  I wonder where his office
is?  Better find it fast, 'cause the box is down and a VP wants to know
why.

Only one person can be responsible for providing hard data about a
system's extrinsic qualities: the person who caused it to be that way.  
If someone moves a box or transfers its support to someone else, you need
to make it that person's duty to either update the information directly or
issue a well-defined notification (change ticket, web form) to someone
whose job is to update it. Otherwise you end up with this method for
locating the machine "fred":

1. Go around your machine room looking for fred. Hint:  you may need a
serial console if your systems' labels aren't kept up to date. Hint 2:  
fred is labeled bob. See last week's label discussion.

2. When you find the server, update the location information in the MIB. 

3. Late that night, tiny winged fairies will move fred to another part of
your machine room.  They will move "ed", your primary DNS host, into
fred's old rack. You will discover this after someone goes to the rack
where MC says fred lives and reboots ed instead of fred. ed's boot
 will likely end up hung on a manual fsck which you can't interact with
because ed's console server is now attached to "norma".

No matter how nifty your configuration management software is, it won't
track that kind of change.  You can either convince the Wee Folk to buy
into the change control process, or you can lay out rat traps baited with
morning dewdrops to snap the buggers' necks, but any solution that doesn't
fix discrepancies at the source invariably becomes a janitorial issue,
with some poor soul trying to follow along behind the sysadmins and
begging them for information.

Wow, that was depressing.  Time for drinkies!


Benjy


On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Camron W. Fox wrote:
> 
> Much Aloha,
> Camron
> 
> Camron W. Fox
> High Performance Computing Group
> Fujitsu America, INC.
> E-mail:			cwfox@fujitsu.com
> Phone:			(808) 934-4102
> Pager:			(888) 733-8726
> 
> 

--
Benjy Feen | benjy@monkeybagel.com | http://www.monkeybagel.com
--



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 17 18:23:19 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: NIS vs NIS+
References: <200002172236.OAA15868@shell3.ba.best.com>
From: Amos Gouaux <amos+lists.sage@utdallas.edu>
Date: 17 Feb 2000 20:23:45 -0600
In-Reply-To: phil@bolthole.com's message of "Thu,
	17 Feb 2000 14:36:38 -0800 (PST)"
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>>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:36:38 -0800 (PST),
>>>>> Philip Brown <phil@bolthole.com> (pb) writes:

pb> but how does solaris 8 LDAP encryption/general security compare to NIS+?

Yeah, I'd like to get the answer to that too.

Our site uses NIS+.  It's been mostly okay, though lately I've seen
the replicas fall a bit out of sync.  It's also a drag that it's not
really widely supported by other vendors.  Even at Sun I understand
it's only used in buildings of the OS and networking groups.

I'm hoping that LDAP, since it's more widely supported, will offer a
brighter future.  However, there are some issues with LDAP that
concern me, failover for one.  With NIS+ clients are really pretty
good about picking up another NIS+ server if one goes down.  In fact
we can take down a NIS+ server without fear of paralyzing a chunk of
the campus.  However with LDAP, that kind of failover doesn't appear
to be inherent to the protocol.

Amos




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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:03:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Russ Harvey <russ@cornucopia.ucr.edu>
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A faculty person here would like to rent 10-100 Gb of space, into which he
will put his data, and then run SAS to analyze it. Does anyone know of a
company or site willing to rent him the space and either have SAS available
or be willing to let him buy SAS and then install it for him to use.
He understands that disk drives are inexpensive and PC versions of SAS
are available, he just would prefer to not to do it that way.
Please reply to me and I will (if there are replies) summarize.

Thanks,
--russ

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Harvey                             Internet: russ-harvey@ucr.edu
Dept. of Computing and Communications       uucp: galaxy!russ
Univ. of Calif., Riverside, CA 92521-0142  phone: (909) 787-5617



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 17 21:37:35 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Bruce Hamilton <bhami@netcom.com>
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I used both NIS and NIS+ for years. They BOTH suck big time. Poorly 
designed, implemented, and documented. And the SunSoft NIS+ book doesn't 
help much.

Then I moved to another company. rdist RULES! Everything is local files, so 
hosts don't freeze up when your network dies. For up to around 50 hosts, 
performance on distribution of updates is reasonable. Beyond that, you 
might want to go to two tiers.

rdist is incredibly flexible. The "special" command lets you execute 
arbitrary code after doing each file transfer.

But rdist is poorly documented. There is a home page at 
http://www.magnicomp.com/rdist/rdist.shtml . When will we get an O'Reilly 
book with zillions of short, real-life examples?

--Bruce (Bruce Hamilton, Redondo Beach, CA)
bhami@netcom.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~bhami/



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 17 22:41:06 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: NIS vs NIS+
References: <200002172236.OAA15868@shell3.ba.best.com>
	<q6mvh3nxn7y.fsf@spartacus.utdallas.edu>
From: Amos Gouaux <amos+lists.sage@utdallas.edu>
Date: 18 Feb 2000 00:41:39 -0600
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>>>>> On 17 Feb 2000 20:23:45 -0600,
>>>>> Amos Gouaux <amos+lists.sage@utdallas.edu> (ag) writes:

>>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:36:38 -0800 (PST),
>>>>> Philip Brown <phil@bolthole.com> (pb) writes:

pb> but how does solaris 8 LDAP encryption/general security compare to NIS+?

ag> Yeah, I'd like to get the answer to that too.

docs.sun.com now has stuff for Solaris 8.  Some topics that might be
of interest:

 Solaris 8 Reference Manual Collection
   man pages section 1: User Commands
     ldap

   man pages section 1M: System Administration Commands
     ldap_cachemgr
     ldapclient
     ldap_gen_profile.

Amos




From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 18 08:16:57 2000
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Subject: Re: NIS vs NIS+
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For a few (or maybe even a few hundred) hosts rdist may scale, but don't try
this if you have thousands of hosts - you are guaranteed to always have some
machines that are out of sync. This also does not work well if you have
machines that are not continuously connected to the network (they have to be
around to receive the rdist transmission). Maintaining an up to date list of
active machines is also a challenge when you have lots of machines - you end
up with machines that either do not receive the necessary updates or rdist
timing out due to a machine that has been decommissioned but not removed from
the rdist file.

Other problems with rdist:

- Local files mean that for every lookup, the file must be scanned for the
entry. With NIS or NIS+, the lookup can be indexed for the desired element
within the map. On a busy server doing large numbers of lookups, the overhead
can be significant.

- Netgroups are not supported in files, so you cannot use them to control
exports or system access via rdist. Netgroups are only supported via NIS and
NIS+ (at least by Sun) at this time. (Network Appliance has a kludge to use a
netgroup file instead of NIS, but this does require reading the entire file
for every lookup.)

Both NIS and NIS+ have scaling problems, but both can be made to work with
large numbers of systems. If you can constrain the size of the maps (or build
or find an alternate ypserv), NIS can be made to effectively serve thousands
of machines. It has the advantage that many vendors currently support NIS on
their platforms. NIS+ is not that widely implemented (Sun and HP have
support), but does not have a problem with larger maps, and with some
judicious trickery, it can be forced to serve thousands of machines. However,
do you want to implement a system (NIS+) that Sun won't deploy internally? 

LDAP is certainly the next system to look at, but it isn't quite ready for
implementation today, and it isn't yet clear how well it will scale.

So, is there a perfect answer?

Sorry, no, you have to choose the best (for your application) from a bad
lot...

- Richard Chycoski

Bruce Hamilton wrote:
> 
> I used both NIS and NIS+ for years. They BOTH suck big time. Poorly
> designed, implemented, and documented. And the SunSoft NIS+ book doesn't
> help much.
> 
> Then I moved to another company. rdist RULES! Everything is local files, so
> hosts don't freeze up when your network dies. For up to around 50 hosts,
> performance on distribution of updates is reasonable. Beyond that, you
> might want to go to two tiers.
> 
> rdist is incredibly flexible. The "special" command lets you execute
> arbitrary code after doing each file transfer.
> 
> But rdist is poorly documented. There is a home page at
> http://www.magnicomp.com/rdist/rdist.shtml . When will we get an O'Reilly
> book with zillions of short, real-life examples?
> 
> --Bruce (Bruce Hamilton, Redondo Beach, CA)
> bhami@netcom.com
> http://home.earthlink.net/~bhami/


From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 18 10:54:44 2000
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From: Yiorgos Adamopoulos <adamo@dblab.ece.ntua.gr>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:54:30 +0200
To: rac@cisco.com
Subject: Re: NIS vs NIS+
Cc: Bruce Hamilton <bhami@netcom.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
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On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:16:44 -0800 rac <rac@cisco.com> wrote:

> For a few (or maybe even a few hundred) hosts rdist may scale, but don't try
> this if you have thousands of hosts - you are guaranteed to always have some
> machines that are out of sync. This also does not work well if you have
> machines that are not continuously connected to the network (they have to be
> around to receive the rdist transmission). Maintaining an up to date list of
> active machines is also a challenge when you have lots of machines - you end
> up with machines that either do not receive the necessary updates or rdist
> timing out due to a machine that has been decommissioned but not removed from
> the rdist file.

[ I have not followed this discussion .. so I may be off topic ]

So why not make the "clients" request the databases at some time.  Make master 
copies of the user (and group and any other) databases available via a RDBMS 
(free or commercial).  Then have the machines *ask* the master(s) server(s) for
the required maps every time they get back on the net (== they "see" the 
master) and periodically.

--
Yiorgos Adamopoulos, adamo@ieee.org



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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:53:51 -0500 (EST)
From: "Daniel E. Singer" <des@cs.duke.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: NIS vs NIS+
In-Reply-To: <38AD706B.52B319F1@cisco.com>
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There was an article in the October '99 issue of *&login+^: titled
"Ypmake: A Tool for NIS" by Albert Chin-A-Young.  I didn't read the
whole thing (its 10 pages, and I have ADD), but it seems to talk about
a NIS add-on tool for scaling to large, heterogeneous, multi-domain
environments.  Might be worth a gander.

I just took a quick look at the article, and didn't see any "here's
where to get it" info.  (Might have missed it.)  So I hope it's not
one of those articles or papers that says "here's something neat that
we did, but sorry we can only tell you about it."

-Dan

-- 
Daniel E. Singer, Systems Administrator
Dept. of Computer Science, Duke University, Durham NC 27708 USA
des@cs.duke.edu, www.cs.duke.edu/~des, (919)660-6577



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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:17:14 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
From: Leslie Dreyer Kalra <lbd@techiesinc.com>
To: Bruce Hamilton <bhami@netcom.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: NIS vs NIS+
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On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Bruce Hamilton wrote:

> Then I moved to another company. rdist RULES! Everything is local files, so 
> 
> rdist is incredibly flexible. The "special" command lets you execute 
> arbitrary code after doing each file transfer.

Even better: rsync. It transfers only deltas and can run over ssh...

Leslie Dreyer Kalra
Techies, Inc.			Computing and Internet
lbd@techiesinc.com			Consultant
Claimer: The opinions expressed here actually *are* those of Techies, Inc.



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To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Bruce Hamilton <bhami@netcom.com>
Subject: SUMMARY Re: Scripts for noting disk failure?
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Thanks to those who responded.

--Bruce (Bruce Hamilton, Redondo Beach, CA)
bhami@netcom.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~bhami/

-----------------------------------
From: Darrell Fuhriman <darrell@grumblesmurf.net>

EMC disk not only monitors disks and replaces them before they've
actually up and died, but will notify you and EMC that you need a
replacement. If you've got the right support contract, it'll
probably be replaced before the spare has finished syncing.

Although the product is solving a slightly different problem,
Network Appliance does the same thing...

-----------------------------------
From: "Arthur, Chastity" <Chastity.Arthur@schwab.com>

Veritas already does it. For instance, I actually unplugged a A5200 the
other day and it reported every event to me in an email. No extra scripting
here, just supplied the root account with a forward to my email.

-----------------------------------
From: Gus Hartmann <hartmann@cs.wisc.edu>

I have a script that digs through metastat on DiskSuite, but
it's somewhat old (DiskSuite 4.0), and I'm not sure if the output of
later versions has changed. It's also not in front of me now, but I can
get it to you later in the day.

-----------------------------------
From: phil@bolthole.com (Philip Brown)

 > Solaris
 > DiskSuite

metastat | grep State: | egrep -v Okay

-----------------------------------
From: David Alban <alban@datawire.com>

I have a script that detects hardware failures of non-raid scsi disks on
irix machines by attempting to read their disk labels using irix's
prtvtoc(1M) command. It keeps state data in a dbm file. If you're
interested, I could make the perl5 source available to you.

-----------------------------------
From: LuftHans <LuftHans@asu.edu>

...You could use an snmp agent or something like Big Brother to monitor disk
usage ...

-----------------------------------
From: Theo Van Dinter <felicity@kluge.net>

The NetApps will do this if you set it up -- it's called autosupport mail.
Every week it sends out a status of the machine (configurations, etc.), and
it'll mail on any errors (disk failed -- shows you the configurations so you
know if a spare kicked in or if you're in degraded mode, etc.) It'll also
mail on certain other activities (disk scrub (ie: find bad blocks on disks)
runs once a week automatically and will mail the result to you.)

 > Solaris
 > DiskSuite

I wrote this to be used with the mon (see www.kernel.org/software/mon)
system, but it works as a cron job as well.

I use it as such:

solstice.monitor -l "/usr/opt/SUNWmd/sbin/metastat|" -d 
d8,d10,d22,d7,d15,d16 \
-s "RAID set on [host] is having problems!"

#### --- solstice.monitor or disksuite.monitor --- ####
#!/usr/local/bin/perl
#
# By: Theo Van Dinter (tvd@colltech.com, felicity@kluge.net) (c) 1999
# Revision Info: $Id: disksuite.monitor,v 1.1 1999/12/22 16:00:03 tvd Exp $
#
# This script will look through a metastat dump (metastat > file) to look for
# devices which are not functioning properly. Only tested using
# Mirror/Concat-Stripe devices w/ Solstice Disksuite 4.1.
#
# If you want to just run metastat instead of using a logfile, set -l to
# "/path/to/metastat|" ...
#
# This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
# it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
# the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or
# (at your option) any later version.
#
use strict;
use Getopt::Std;
use vars qw/ $opt_d $opt_l $opt_s @fails %devs /;
# opt_d = devices (non [d0-9] char split)
# opt_l = where's the log file?
# opt_s = summary line
getopts ("d:l:s:");
%devs = map { die "\"$_\" is an invalid device name!" unless /^d\d+$/;
$_ => 1; } split(/[^d0-9]/,$opt_d);
die "No devices were specified!" unless ( keys %devs );
die "No logfile was specified!" unless ( $opt_l );
$opt_s ||= "Found a problem in $opt_l";
$/=''; # paragraph mode
# Go through the metastat output.
open(LOG,$opt_l) || die "Can't open \"$opt_l\":$!";
while ( chomp($_=<LOG>) ) {
my($dev) = /^(d\d+)/;
next unless ( $dev && $devs{$dev} ); # skip unimportant devices.
delete $devs{$dev}; # remove this device from the list for later
# Figure out what it's state is ... Report it if not "Okay".
foreach ( /^\s*(.+\n\s+State:\s*.+?)\s*$/gm ) {
next if ( /Okay$/s ); # skip devices that are "Okay"
tr/ //s; # compress all spaces into a single one.
push(@fails,"$dev:\n$_\n"); # record the problem!
}
}
close(LOG);
# If there are keys left in %devs, then arrays we're supposed to monitor 
aren't
# there, doh! Better report it ...
if ( keys %devs ) {
foreach ( sort keys %devs ) {
push(@fails,"$_: Not Found in device listing!\n");
}
}
# If there are failures, spit out the information in the right format and exit
# w/ status 1.
if ( @fails ) {
print join("\n",$opt_s,@fails,"");
exit 1;
}
# Nothing's wrong? Yippie! Exit w/ status 0.
exit 0;
#### ------ ####

At 10:54 PM 2/14/00 -0800, Bruce Hamilton wrote:
>Why is it that all the vendors have complex high-availability disk 
>solutions, but they don't bother to provide simple shell scripts to check 
>for when a disk has failed and send email? My Auspex has some sort of cron 
>that can give a cryptic message about an I/O failure at 11:45 PM each 
>night, but it would be a lot nicer if it could do an hourly check and spit 
>out a detailed message of the form "disk X has been replaced by spare Y in 
>RAID group Z".
>
>Before I re-invent wheels, I'd like to poll this group for scripts that 
>work on:
>
>Solaris
>   DiskSuite
>   Veritas Volume Manager
>   RM6
>HP-UX
>   MirrorDisk/UX
>Auspex 1.9.1
>Andataco/nStor
>   various RAID boxes
>...anything else?



From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb 21 06:16:49 2000
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 09:17:43 -0500
From: Robert Huber <huberrj@epix.net>
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Seeing the thread on NIS/NIS+ and LDAP brought to mind single sign on
solutions.  There's been rumbling in our organization that we are going
to use a single sign on solution for Unix platforms in the near future.
NIS and NIS+ are out.  Anyone have any experience with any other
solutions that they could share, or any info on any LDAP
implementations?  Send me an email and I'll sum up the responses.

Thanks,

Bob Huber



From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb 21 09:28:56 2000
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From: Mike Knell <mike.knell@cs.tcd.ie>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Single Sign On 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 Feb 2000 09:17:43 EST."
	<38B14907.1B53AAD0@epix.net> 
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> Seeing the thread on NIS/NIS+ and LDAP brought to mind single sign on
> solutions.  There's been rumbling in our organization that we are going
> to use a single sign on solution for Unix platforms in the near future.
> NIS and NIS+ are out.  Anyone have any experience with any other
> solutions that they could share, or any info on any LDAP
> implementations?  Send me an email and I'll sum up the responses.

This is not so much an answer, I'm afraid, but a query that came to mind
as a result of the above..

Has anyone had a play with the alleged Kerberos support in Windows 2000
yet? If this is a real Kerberos implementation which will interoperate
with Unix boxes, that could be really useful for PC-Unix integration..
If nobody's done it yet, I'll throw W2K onto a spare machine and see
if it'll play with the Unix machines.

m.

-- 
Computer Science System Administrator, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland
       mike.knell@cs.tcd.ie -=- http://www.cs.tcd.ie/Mike.Knell/


From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb 21 09:55:13 2000
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From: Daniel Rinehart <danielr@ccs.neu.edu>
To: Robert Huber <huberrj@epix.net>
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Subject: Re: Single Sign On
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> NIS and NIS+ are out.  Anyone have any experience with any other
> solutions that they could share, or any info on any LDAP
> implementations?  Send me an email and I'll sum up the responses.

	As a good starting point LISA '98 had a nice paper about SSO
presented by Michael Fleming Grubb and Rob Carter - Duke University:

http://www.usenix.org/publications/library/proceedings/lisa98/grubb.html

-- Daniel R. <danielr@ccs.neu.edu> [http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/danielr/]



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From: "Melissa D. Binde" <binde@terindell.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
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Twas brillig, on Mon Feb 21 at 05:28:42 PM, and Mike Knell burbled:

> This is not so much an answer, I'm afraid, but a query that came to mind
> as a result of the above..
> 
> Has anyone had a play with the alleged Kerberos support in Windows 2000
> yet? If this is a real Kerberos implementation which will interoperate
> with Unix boxes, that could be really useful for PC-Unix integration..
> If nobody's done it yet, I'll throw W2K onto a spare machine and see
> if it'll play with the Unix machines.

Not an answer but another query: I heard rumors that this is a standard MS
standards issue.  i.e., you can't have the windows clients connecting to a
UNIX Kerb server and still have things work well.

Can anyone confirm or deny?


-M.


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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:27:39 -0600
From: John Rowan Littell <jrowan@mandli.com>
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Lo, Melissa D. Binde and the coffepot sang in unison:
> Twas brillig, on Mon Feb 21 at 05:28:42 PM, and Mike Knell burbled:
> > Has anyone had a play with the alleged Kerberos support in Windows 2000
> > yet? If this is a real Kerberos implementation which will interoperate
> > with Unix boxes, that could be really useful for PC-Unix integration..
> > If nobody's done it yet, I'll throw W2K onto a spare machine and see
> > if it'll play with the Unix machines.
> 
> Not an answer but another query: I heard rumors that this is a standard MS
> standards issue.  i.e., you can't have the windows clients connecting to a
> UNIX Kerb server and still have things work well.
> 
> Can anyone confirm or deny?

IIRC, W2K clients can use Unix Kerberos 5 services, but only if the
Unix service uses GSSAPI.  Unix clients can't use W2K services,
period.  I haven't tested this, but this is what I remember a
Microsoft droid telling me last fall.

  --rowan

-- 
John "Rowan" Littell

Frisbeetarianism, n.: The belief that when you die, your soul goes up on
the roof and gets stuck.


From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb 22 04:07:00 2000
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Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:08:15 -0500
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
Subject: Internet server hardware configurations
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Greetings,

Sorry to bother the list... I am curious as to the types of Internet 
servers that are being used.  In particular:

* Is anyone having success using Intel based machines?
* What processor speed, memory, etc.
* Are you using IDE or SCSI drives?
* Are you using Disk Mirroring, RAID, or single drives?
* Are you using redundant machines?
* What is your order of importance?
* Anything that I might have overlooked?

I have a client that is about to implement their first productive site.  I 
feel that their current machine will get them going, however, I would like 
to submit a long range plan for upgrades.  Obviously this is so they may 
begin to budget for the equipment now, then it won't be a surprise later.

Thanks in advance,
- Bennett




From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb 22 12:13:31 2000
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From: John P Speno <speno@isc.upenn.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Single Sign On
Message-ID: <20000222151324.A281766@isc.upenn.edu>
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	<200002211728.RAA12541@relay.cs.tcd.ie>
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On Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 02:11:27PM -0500, Melissa D. Binde wrote:
> 
> Not an answer but another query: I heard rumors that this is a standard MS
> standards issue.  i.e., you can't have the windows clients connecting to a
> UNIX Kerb server and still have things work well.

Here are two ;login: articles related to this very issue: 

Kerberos authentication in Windows NT 5.0 domains by Peter Brundrett
<URL:http://www.usenix.org/publications/login/1998-5/brundrett.html>

Microsoft "embraces and extends" Kerberos V5 by Theodore Ts'o
<URL:http://www.usenix.org/publications/login/1997-11/embraces.html>



From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb 23 07:29:23 2000
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From: "Jack Coats" <jack@coats.org>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
References: <200002180403.UAA16466@cornucopia.ucr.edu>
Subject: Re: Disk space rent
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:40:32 -0600
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A company I used to work for charged $1.10/megabyte month. ... That
should be enough to help recover some overhead :) [ 100G approx $110,000
per month :) ]
----- Original Message -----
From: Russ Harvey <russ@cornucopia.ucr.edu>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 10:03 PM
Subject: Disk space rent


> A faculty person here would like to rent 10-100 Gb of space, into which he
> will put his data, and then run SAS to analyze it. Does anyone know of a
> company or site willing to rent him the space and either have SAS
available
> or be willing to let him buy SAS and then install it for him to use.
> He understands that disk drives are inexpensive and PC versions of SAS
> are available, he just would prefer to not to do it that way.
> Please reply to me and I will (if there are replies) summarize.
>
> Thanks,
> --russ
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
> Russ Harvey                             Internet: russ-harvey@ucr.edu
> Dept. of Computing and Communications       uucp: galaxy!russ
> Univ. of Calif., Riverside, CA 92521-0142  phone: (909) 787-5617



From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb 23 10:58:31 2000
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From: "Kavitsky, James" <james.kavitsky@dsl.net>
To: "'Jack Coats'" <jack@coats.org>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: Disk space rent
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:58:07 -0500
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jack Coats [mailto:jack@coats.org]
> Subject: Re: Disk space rent
> 
> A company I used to work for charged $1.10/megabyte month. ... That
> should be enough to help recover some overhead :) [ 100G 
> approx $110,000
> per month :) ]

I just bought a 40Gb IDE harddrive for $250. I'd be willing to lease
him the 100GB for only $50,000 a month, and throw in the SAS processing
for free....

-jimk


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From: "Kavitsky, James" <james.kavitsky@dsl.net>
To: "'Jack Coats'" <jack@coats.org>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: Disk space rent
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:58:07 -0500
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jack Coats [mailto:jack@coats.org]
> Subject: Re: Disk space rent
> 
> A company I used to work for charged $1.10/megabyte month. ... That
> should be enough to help recover some overhead :) [ 100G 
> approx $110,000
> per month :) ]

I just bought a 40Gb IDE harddrive for $250. I'd be willing to lease
him the 100GB for only $50,000 a month, and throw in the SAS processing
for free....

-jimk


From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb 23 16:41:29 2000
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From: "Jack Coats" <jack@coats.org>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
References: <200002180403.UAA16466@cornucopia.ucr.edu>
Subject: Re: Disk space rent
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:40:32 -0600
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A company I used to work for charged $1.10/megabyte month. ... That
should be enough to help recover some overhead :) [ 100G approx $110,000
per month :) ]
----- Original Message -----
From: Russ Harvey <russ@cornucopia.ucr.edu>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 10:03 PM
Subject: Disk space rent


> A faculty person here would like to rent 10-100 Gb of space, into which he
> will put his data, and then run SAS to analyze it. Does anyone know of a
> company or site willing to rent him the space and either have SAS
available
> or be willing to let him buy SAS and then install it for him to use.
> He understands that disk drives are inexpensive and PC versions of SAS
> are available, he just would prefer to not to do it that way.
> Please reply to me and I will (if there are replies) summarize.
>
> Thanks,
> --russ
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
> Russ Harvey                             Internet: russ-harvey@ucr.edu
> Dept. of Computing and Communications       uucp: galaxy!russ
> Univ. of Calif., Riverside, CA 92521-0142  phone: (909) 787-5617


From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb 28 10:32:35 2000
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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:34:01 -0500
To: "Sage Members" <sage-members@usenix.org>
From: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
Subject: Network cable certification tools
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Greetings,

Fluke has a few devices that boast the ability to "certify" network 
cabling.  Does anyone know of any other devices and/or software that 
accomplishes the same thing.  A client of mine has a few cables that I 
"know" are bad, but am not allowed to replace them unless I can prove that 
they are bad.  Fluke's least expensive device is about $2500.

Any ideas are greatly appreciated.

- Bennett

(P.S. I have already been down the "serviceability" path with my client, I 
am just looking for ways to "prove" this one, and enhance any future 
services that I provide.  (e.q. cable installation))




From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb 28 12:25:11 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Single Sign On
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	<200002211728.RAA12541@relay.cs.tcd.ie>
	<20000221141127.M6027@terindell.com>
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From: Amos Gouaux <amos+lists.sage@utdallas.edu>
Date: 28 Feb 2000 14:25:34 -0600
In-Reply-To: John Rowan Littell's message of "Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:27:39 -0600"
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>>>>> On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:27:39 -0600,
>>>>> John Rowan Littell <jrowan@mandli.com> (jrl) writes:

jrl> IIRC, W2K clients can use Unix Kerberos 5 services, but only if the
jrl> Unix service uses GSSAPI.  Unix clients can't use W2K services,
jrl> period.  I haven't tested this, but this is what I remember a
jrl> Microsoft droid telling me last fall.

Incidentally, this appeared on Yahoo:

Kerberos Made To Heel To Windows 2000
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20000228/tc/20000228169.html




From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb 28 13:19:08 2000
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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 15:20:33 -0600
From: Steve Hodo <steve@utdallas.edu>
To: Sage Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Network cable certification tools
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The Omni-Scanner is a very nice and useful device though it's not
as cost effective as some flukes.  With MM and SM fiber options
included it's in the $6k range.  The scanner has a number of
preset tests for various media.  TX tests include attenuation,
cross-talk, max Mb the cable can carry, pinout maps and more...
Hmmm, sounds like a commercial.  Needless to say, we like ours
very much!

Steve
University of Texas at Dallas  

--On Monday, February 28, 2000, 1:34 PM -0500 Bennett Samowich
<brs@ben-tech.com> wrote:

> Greetings,
> 
> Fluke has a few devices that boast the ability to "certify" network 
> cabling.  Does anyone know of any other devices and/or software that 
> accomplishes the same thing.  A client of mine has a few cables that I 
> "know" are bad, but am not allowed to replace them unless I can prove
> that  they are bad.  Fluke's least expensive device is about $2500.
> 
> Any ideas are greatly appreciated.
> 
> - Bennett
> 
> (P.S. I have already been down the "serviceability" path with my client,
> I  am just looking for ways to "prove" this one, and enhance any future 
> services that I provide.  (e.q. cable installation))
> 
> 






From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb 28 19:19:47 2000
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From: "Company, Paul" <pjc@dsc.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: KVMs
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:19:22 -0800
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I'm doing a product search on KVMs.
Does anyone have recommendations?

Here are my URLs on the subject:
http://www.raritan.com/kvm.html KVM Selection Guide

http://www.networkbuyersguide.com/search/105573.htm List of KVM Switches

http://www.computerspecialtiesinc.com/kvm.html List of KVM Switches

http://www.raritan.com/prodsol2.html Raritan KVMs

http://www.edimax.com EDImax Genie KVMs

http://www.belkin.com/products/product_index/kvm  Belkin OmniView KVMs

http://www.cybex.com Cybex xView KVMs

http://www.compucable.com/se_kvm_body.html CompuCable PowerReach KVMs

http://catalog.blackbox.com  BlackBox Servx KVMs

http://www.apex.com/products Apex KVMs

http://www.rosel.com/html/kvc.htm#kvc Rosel KVMs

http://www.milestek.com/products1.htm MilesTek KVMs

http://www.compaq.com/products/storageworks/options/skvm_index.html Compaq
KVMs

http://www.cablingsys.com Cablingsys CS-128 or 1008 KVM (P/N A05-CS128,1008)


From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb 28 23:41:50 2000
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Reply-To: "Eddie - MPC Internetworks, Inc." <eddie@mympc.com>
From: "Eddie - MPC Internetworks, Inc." <eddie@mympc.com>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:42:41 -0800
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The newer versions of sendmail including mine (8.9.3) are made to
automatically close mail relay by default.  What would you say is the most
efficient and accepted way to setup my servers to keep them off black hole
lists such as RBL and ORBS?

This is a web server so I don't particularly like having to open relay in
the /etc/mail/relay-domains file all the time or having to open it to AOL or
UUNet since that kills the point of having it closed in the first place.  It
uses pop3d and sendmail 8.9.3  Any thoughts?  I can answer any specific
questions if you reply to me.  I will also post my findings if I come to a
great solution.  ;-)

Eddie



From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb 29 06:18:05 2000
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To: "Company, Paul" <pjc@dsc.com>
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Subject: Re: KVMs 
In-Reply-To: Message from "Company, Paul" <pjc@dsc.com> of "Mon,
	28 Feb 2000 19:19:22 PST."
	<0D7E878509BED111BEAC00A0C9A3CA6001340F4A@granite.plpt.com> 
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Paul,

We've got a Belkin OmniView Pro 16 port switch on a newly built Beowulf 
cluster. Yeah, it's probably overkill for this task, but it sure is nice when 
debugging things. It has a hot key sequence to switch ports from the keyboard, 
pretty lights (:-)) and is stackable to add ports.

My hardware guy liked for the specs (supports up to 1600x1200 resolution 
screens) and the low cost. Be warned that it seems to be popular, we had to 
wait a few weeks for ours to be delivered due to back orders.

In message <0D7E878509BED111BEAC00A0C9A3CA6001340F4A@granite.plpt.com>, "Compan
y, Paul" writes:
>
>I'm doing a product search on KVMs.
>Does anyone have recommendations?

-- 
 Dwight D. McKay, System Administrator
 Markey Center for Structural Biology, Purdue University
 mckay@gimli.bio.purdue.edu





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From: Wim Vandeputte <bunbun@reptile.rug.ac.be>
To: Amos Gouaux <amos+lists.sage@utdallas.edu>
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On 28 Feb 2000, Amos Gouaux wrote:

> Incidentally, this appeared on Yahoo:
> 
> Kerberos Made To Heel To Windows 2000
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20000228/tc/20000228169.html

Also have a look at:

http://news.excite.com/news/zd/000228/11/kerberos-made-to






From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb 29 07:03:45 2000
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In-reply-to: (Your message of Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:58:22 EST.)
	<Pine.BSF.4.05.10002291557510.22626-100000@reptile.rug.ac.be> 
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>  
>  On 28 Feb 2000, Amos Gouaux wrote:
>  
>  > Incidentally, this appeared on Yahoo:
>  > 
>  > Kerberos Made To Heel To Windows 2000
>  > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20000228/tc/20000228169.html
>  
>  Also have a look at:
>  
>  http://news.excite.com/news/zd/000228/11/kerberos-made-to

This should come as no surprise - M$ had threatened this a couple
of years ago, at LISA/NT.  Doesn't make it suck any less, though.

--paw


From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb 29 13:14:52 2000
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Subject: Good Co-locations ?
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Hi--

Our company has recently had a problem with our co-location in New York
(Level 3) and them not being able to provide us with our cage on time. We
are now looking for a good, stable, co-location on the East Coast
(preferably New York) to build our next server farm. We are open to
Virginia, South Carolina, and Georgia if the location provides good
service. Any suggestions.

--Melinda :o)



From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar  1 12:02:21 2000
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Subject: UUASC-LA presentation on RAID tuning for databases(LA, calif.)
To: SAGE-Members@usenix.org
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 12:01:59 -0800 (PST)
From: phil@bolthole.com (Philip Brown)
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Sorry if this is a duplicate for some folks. I thought I sent to
sage-announce, but I am only subscribed to sage-members, and do not
see a copy to this list. So;




            UNIX Users Association of Southern California - LA

                       Program, March 2000

                 Tuning Disk Arrays for Database Performance

                     Thursday, March 2, 7-9 pm


These days, there are many options for disk allocation: single disks, 
software RAID, hardware RAID, and all kinds of permutations within those 
choices.

Knowledgeable UUASC member, Brian Mann, a longtime MIS Director, will give a 
presentation on these issues, and offer recommendations, based upon 
extensive tests his company performed while conducting database performance 
analysis.  Besides being an overview of RAID technology, Brian's program 
will answer "Why use RAID?" and "Which RAID is best for you?" and detail 
factors affecting selection of RAID types, including results of a documented 
case study at his company, CHA.



Location:


Cary Conference Room on first floor
Merisel, Inc (the UNMARKED five-story building on the corner)
200 Continental Blvd  (2101 El Segundo Blvd)
El Segundo, California

(This is about 2 miles south of LAX airport)


Directions:

Coming from the EAST --
Basically, you can take the 105 Freeway to Nash Street. Take Nash SOUTH, 
away from the airport for about five long blocks, and turn right on El 
Segundo Blvd. Take the first right, which is Continental Blvd. and the big 
ugly five-story building on that corner is where we will be meeting.

Directions from other places are similar.

Coming from the 405 Freeway -
Exit on El Segundo, and head west.  It is about half a mile, just past the 
overhead light rail track.

Coming from Sepulveda Blvd, a.k.a. Highway 1 -
Go east on El Segundo, which is the big traffic lights where the huge white 
"Pacific Corporate Towers" are located. Continental is then the first left, 
and Merisel is the first driveway on the right.

Once again, go into the five-story, ugly, UNMARKED building on the corner, 
not the one actually labeled Merisel that is next to it. The door is on the 
east side, and has 2101 over it.

There should be lots of "visitor" slots you can grab in the parking lots.

       --------------------------------------------------

UUASC is for all persons using UNIX either personally or professionally, or 
interested in learning more about UNIX. We recognize all varieties of UNIX, 
including (without prejudice) SCO, Linux, SVr4, Solaris, AIX, HP/UX, and 
BSD. This is a good place to meet others with similar interests and broaden 
your skills and knowledge.

There are two UUASC chapters serving Los Angeles and Orange Counties. 
Meeting locations for each chapter are detailed at our web site, 
www.uuasc.org.  Please visit our web site.

There are no dues or other membership requirements. More than 100 persons 
receive our monthly email newsletter. Meeting attendance varies to as high 
as 40. Volunteers manage the club and more volunteers are always needed.

Los Angeles County Chapter meetings are held the first Thursday of each 
month from 7 to 9 pm. Generally, meetings include a technical presentation 
on a hardware or software topic of current interest to the UNIX community 
and a round-table discussion of current topics of interest to the group. 
UUASC-LA needs future topic suggestions (and volunteers)!!



From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar  1 20:00:26 2000
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Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 20:00:13 -0800
From: Phil Scarr <prscarr@greymouser.com>
To: SAGE-Members <SAGE-Members@usenix.org>
Subject: Backup decision... down to 2 choices
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I'm soliciting feedback on a couple of backup solutions we're looking at
to replace our overworked existing system.  Here's the scoop.

We need the following clients:

	Solaris 2
	SunOS 4
	Tru64 4.0D
	HP-UX 10.20 and 11.0
	Linux
	Windows NT
	Alpha VMS
	VAX VMS

and on the application side:

	Oracle 7 and 8
	SQL Server 7
	Microsoft Exchange
	SAP/R3

We've got about 1TB of data and it's only going to get worse (we're
deploying a data warehouse this year).  Our current candidates for
replacement systems are:

1. IBM 3466 Network Storage Manager - This is a marketing bundle which
includes the following bits:

	4way RS6000
	1024gb RAM
	768GB RAID disk for DB and disk spool
	Magstar MP tape library (L32) with 5 drives
	Gigabit networking
	Tivoli Storage Manager (latest)
	Full 24x7 onsite support, 24x7 support line, remote status
	monitoring

The price quoted includes unlimited client licences on all supported and
unsupported platforms.  The VMS client is only available from a third
party but that's not too expensive.  This is a true lights-out solution
according to IBM.  There is a local IBM service office which can handle
the components without trouble (UVa is a big IBM customer and has lots
of RS6000 boxes).

CONCERNS AND SUCH: It's friggin' expensive (with consulting and 3 years
of service it's around $400,000) but meets all our requirements
for a complete hands-off solution.  I can get this thing setup (with
the help of consultants) and do a "fire and forget" with operations.  At
least that's the theory...

2. Sun / Veritas NetBackup package

	4way E450
	1024gb RAM
	50GB RAID disk for DB
	Sun E11000 tape library with 6 DLT8000 drives (ATL rebranded
	library)
	Veritas NetBackup (latest)
	Full 24x7 onsite support, 24x7 support line, remote status
	monitoring

This configuration is much more comfortable to me since I'm familiar
with both ATL and Sun hardware and we run NetBackup now.  We had a
catastrophic failure of the backup system in January and we were able to
bring NetBackup back online in about 24 hours (although we were fiddling
with it for a week afterwords).  But in the end, everything seemed to
get back to normal.

CONCENS AND SUCH: This configuration includes much more management
for me.  There is no site license for clients like the IBM solution (the
VAR we're working with checked on a site license for Veritas NetBackup
and they were told that it's $9,999,999.99, a bit steep for us...) which
means that I have to keep tracking client licenses for each system I buy.
We currently use NetBackup and I *know* we're not in compliance right now.
I'm trying to do a true-up but there's no good records...

Anyone want to express an opinion here???   I'd really like to hear from
ADSM users about the pros and cons of their installations.  Any anyone
else who has another solution that covers all our clients (like
OmniBack), I'd like to hear from you.

Thanks!

	-Phil

-- 
                                                     GREYMOUSER CONSULTING
              System, Network and Security Architecture and Administration 
                          for Central Virginia (http://www.greymouser.com)
* S o l a r i s  *  H P - U X  *   L I N U X   *   W  i n d o w s   N T  *


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar  1 21:37:51 2000
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To: Phil Scarr <prscarr@greymouser.com>
Cc: SAGE-Members <SAGE-Members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Backup decision... down to 2 choices
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> Anyone want to express an opinion here???   I'd really like to hear from
> ADSM users about the pros and cons of their installations.  Any anyone
> else who has another solution that covers all our clients (like
> OmniBack), I'd like to hear from you.

I've actually used both of these "solutions."  The site I am currently
contracting at is in the process of moving from ADSM to NetBackup. The
real emphasis is on NetBackup right now, so that infrastructure has
received all of the money. That means I can't fairly compare the two. 

I have to say, though, that with hundreds of servers (HP-UX, MPE, NT),
the implementation of NetBackup has gone remarkably smoothly. No major
problems or surprises, though I suppose that says more about the project
manager than the product itself.
-- 
Jim Holthaus
jim@holthaus.com


From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar  2 09:35:54 2000
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Subject: Re: Backup decision... down to 2 choices
To: prscarr@greymouser.com
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Phil,

> We've got about 1TB of data and it's only going to get worse (we're
> deploying a data warehouse this year).  Our current candidates for
> replacement systems are:
> 
> 1. IBM 3466 Network Storage Manager - This is a marketing bundle which
> includes the following bits:
> 
> 2. Sun / Veritas NetBackup package


We're in the throes of an almost identical decision right now...

One thing you may be interested in looking at is a product called
StorServer, which is a bundled solution that includes Tivoli Storage Mgr
and a GUI layered on top. The GUI is written by a company called Storage
Solutions Specialists Inc (SSSI), the intent being to hide most of the
really ugly side of ADSM.

You don't need to run ADSM on an RS6000, of course, and you don't need
to use Magstar drives (though they're pretty slick, as you've discovered
they're also horrendously expensive!), you can use an ATL library with
it if you want.

We haven't made a decision yet...

Cheers,

Ross

-- 
Ross Parker            |      UNIX Sys Admin, Perl and C,
Systems/Network Admin  |        Networking and security
Telus Mobility         |
                       |      UNIX is very user friendly... it's just
parker@bctm.com        | highly selective about who it makes friends WITH!



From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar  3 11:33:26 2000
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From: Steve Hillman <hillman@sfu.ca>
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Hi folks,
  Our department is looking into setting up a Web search engine that
indexes all of the web sites on campus (spread across multiple web servers). 

I've found ht://Dig (www.htdig.org) and it's basicly what we're looking
for, but I'd like to be able to compare it to what else is out there first.
If you can offer any pointers to other software packages, or first-hand
experience with the performance of different packages, it would be much
appreciated.

Please e-mail replies to me - I'll summarize to the list.

Thanks,

Steve Hillman,                   Senior Systems Administrator
604-291-3960                     Academic Computing Services
hillman@sfu.ca                   Simon Fraser University

"Give me ambiguity or give me something else"


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar  7 10:06:44 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Mike Knell <mike.knell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: appletalk and routing in general
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 18:06:27 +0000
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All,

My apologies for the splattercast, but this problem is driving me up the
wall..

At the moment, my entire institution is one big switched Ethernet, which
is all very well but for the levels of noise, broadcast crud and the
resulting storms that you get from a few thousand hosts sharing the 
same level 2 broadcast space. We've had problems recently where one
chattering host can basically take the entire network out until it's
tracked down and shot.

To alleviate this, I'm planning on putting a proxy-arping FreeBSD
box between my network and the rest of college, as a filter to 
cut down on the noise levels and generally make things nicer. However,
Appletalk is kind of necessary for the Macintoshes around the place, and
atalkd (part of netatalk) is giving me huge problems. When set up as a
router, it will run for a while, but then the machine just hangs -
wedges solid, power cycle necessary, pushing up electronic daisies.
All in all, a bit of a cock-up on the Appletalk front.

I've tried every version of netatalk I can find - 1.4b2, 9901, +asun,
but they all show the same effect. I suspect it's something to do with
the size of the network segment it's connected to and the amount of 
stuff it's having to deal with, but that's only a hunch.

Does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with this problem? I'd
like to see this as an IP-only router, to be honest, but the Mac support
makes Appletalk just about essential. I'm sure others have come up
against similiar problems in the past, so thought I would ask around to
see if anyone could assist. If anyone has any strategies for getting
rid of Appletalk completely in this scenario, I'd be even more 
interested..

Millions of thanks in advance.. a router that only routes for 5 minutes
before crashing isn't a very useful router. unless you're looking for
a really severe firewall, of course.

Mike

-- 
Computer Science System Administrator, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland
       mike.knell@cs.tcd.ie -=- http://www.cs.tcd.ie/Mike.Knell/


From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar  9 09:35:19 2000
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Subject: Legato on SGI with *big* volumes
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:32:28 -0500 (EST)
From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" <adamm@menlo.com>
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I'm trying to use Legato Networker 5.5.1 to back up my big SGI to a
StorageTek 9714 with three DLT 7000s in it. It "works," but we're having
two problems:

    1) Throughput sucks! Watching the GUI, we saw an average of 2Mb/sec,
       with infrequent peaks of ~8Mb/sec and valleys of 100Kb/sec. The
       system is a 16 CPU Origin 2000 with 6GB of main memory; I refuse
       to believe it can't do better than that. Sure, there was some
       load on the system when we tested, but nothing horrible, and the
       I/O wait times dropped to near zero when we stopped running
       Legato. Oh, yes -- we got pretty much the same numbers from the
       internal SCSI bus, the external SCSI bus, and from the FC-AL
       RAID.

       So, first questions:

	  a) Is there anything obvious to tune on the SGI to get better
	     performance?

	  b) Is there anything we can tweak in Networker to make it go
	     faster?

    2) We have a few very small partitions, one small partition, and one
       mongo partition, as follows:

		/a      37M
		/b     229M
		/c     526M
		/d     1.6G
		/e     425G

       (The names have been changed to protect the guilty.)

       No matter what we try, we can't seem to make Networker write /e
       to more than one DLT in parallel. We _can_ get it to write all
       the partitions to all the DLTs at once, but once /a - /d have
       finished, only one DLT is used for /e.

       Legato claims they don't need to write to all three drives to get
       good performance, but back when I went to school, 1 x 8Mb/sec was
       NOT faster than 3 x 8Mb/sec. :-)

       So, second questions:

	  c) How do we get Networker to use more than one DLT in
	     parallel for /e?

Yes, we know that we can tell Networker to back up /e in pieces, like
so:

	/e/1
	/e/2
	/e/3
	/e/...

The problems are that 1) we don't know how the data is spread across /e
and 2) more importantly, that spread is likely to change on a regular
basis, and we don't want to have to manually tweak Networker every week
or so to keep the tapes spinning.

So, any great ideas -- on either aspect of this? if so, please, oh,
pretty please, send them to ME (adamm@menlo.com) and NOT TO THE WHOLE
LIST. PLEASE! Really! I promise I'll send a summary of the replies.
Please?

Thanx,
AdamM


From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar  9 10:41:28 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Mike Knell <mike.knell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Appletalk stuff - thanks
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 18:41:10 +0000
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People,

Thanks very much to all those who responded to my tales of Appletalk
woe - it looks like the concensus is "get rid of routed Appletalk", 
and that's one I'm inclined to agree with..

I'll try and find some time next week to put a summary together.

Mike

-- 
Computer Science System Administrator, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland
       mike.knell@cs.tcd.ie -=- http://www.cs.tcd.ie/Mike.Knell/


From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar  9 19:46:16 2000
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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 22:47:01 -0500
To: "Sage Members" <sage-members@usenix.org>
From: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
Subject: Notebook computers
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Greetings,

A client of mine and I are both looking at notebook computers.  Realizing 
that usage is a major factor in the selection, we have narrowed the field 
down to two.  We have ruled out Dell, HP, and several Generic and 
Non-Branded models, mostly because of price.

1) IBM ThinkPad 1400 Intel-C 466 w/64
2) Compaq Presario AMD-K2 475 w/64M

Does anyone have any experiences or opinions of either of these?  Any 
recommendations that we may have not thought of, other vendor, etc.

Client uses:
* Remote communication (dial-in, VPN, etc)
* Document writing
* Product demonstration (Power Point, etc)
* Some DB coding
* Internet
* General use

My uses:
* Remote support of clients
* On-site support of clients
* Demonstration
* Document writing
* Some coding (Borland C, Java, etc)
* Network information gathering (usage, connectivity, etc)
* Network access (telnet, ssh, etc)
* Router configuration
* General use

Thanks in advance,
- Bennett



From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 13 16:44:44 2000
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From: "Company, Paul" <pjc@dsc.com>
To: Sage Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Gigabit Ethernet over Copper (802.3z & 802.3ab)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:43:54 -0800
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Does anyone know of any vendor selling 
Gigabit Ethernet over Copper (802.3z & 802.3ab) equipment?

Foundry/HP says sometime next year.
I couldn't find any dates on Cisco and Cabletron.

Here are my URLs on the topic:

http://www.gigabit-ethernet.org/ Gigabit Ethernet Alliance
http://www.iol.unh.edu/consortiums/ge/index.html Gigabit Ethernet Consortium
http://www.nwfusion.com/whitepapers/3com2/3com_wp.html 1000BASET
http://www.3com.com/technology/tech_net/white_papers/503047.html 1000BASTT
http://www.ece.wpi.edu/courses/ee535/hwk98/hwk3cd98/rwp/rwp.html Gigabit
Ethernet Overview


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 14 11:52:49 2000
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:51:41 -0800
From: Mike Broadwater <broadh2o@corp.earthlink.net>
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SAGE Members,

Can anyone tell me:

** In order for me to get an application to utilize the PAM modules do I
need to include the PAM libraries when the application source is
compiled.  If so, what are the libraries in Solaris 2.6?  If not what
can I do to get the app to work with PAM?  Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Mike



From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 14 13:47:40 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: PAM Pluggable Authentication Module
References: <38CE984D.C95BFAB9@corp.earthlink.net>
From: Amos Gouaux <amos+lists.sage@utdallas.edu>
Date: 14 Mar 2000 15:48:04 -0600
In-Reply-To: Mike Broadwater's message of "Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:51:41 -0800"
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>>>>> On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:51:41 -0800,
>>>>> Mike Broadwater <broadh2o@corp.earthlink.net> (mb) writes:

mb> ** In order for me to get an application to utilize the PAM modules do I
mb> need to include the PAM libraries when the application source is
mb> compiled.  If so, what are the libraries in Solaris 2.6?  If not what
mb> can I do to get the app to work with PAM?  Thanks in advance.

Oh I just ran across some pages about this at Sun.  Now, where was
that.... 

Oh yeah: http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/pam/

I've done some PAM stuff, but I bet those references cover it pretty
well so I'll leave it at that.

Amos





From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 14 15:40:33 2000
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:40:39 -0500
From: Kurt Robinson <kcr@asicint.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Distribution of Job Listings
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Hello Sager's;

A quick couple of questions for you, about some issues that have
recently come up here.  I've just gotten permission/handed the
responsibility of finding some help for myself.  
Or in bofh talk, I've gotten permission to bring on a PFY.

What I'm wondering is the best way to write up and distribute
the job listing.  I know some of this is covered in the Hiring
SysAdmin short topic book, but I'm looking more toward how
to find a really Junior sysadmin to bring in.  I've considered
the online job search engines, as well as obviously the sage-jobs
list, but I'm guessing I should really search more locally for 
these type of jobs.  

Does anybody have any ideas/comments about where I should try listing?
Also, does anyone have any good resources for actually writing the
job listing.  I'm feeling a bit like a podiatrist trying to diagnose
a Mr. Ed's vocal cords.

TIA

Kurt Robinson
Network Engineer
Asic International, Inc.
kcr@asicint.com


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 14 16:32:52 2000
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 16:31:31 -0800
From: Mike Broadwater <broadh2o@corp.earthlink.net>
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To: Amos Gouaux <amos+lists.sage@utdallas.edu>
CC: sage-members@usenix.org
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References: <38CE984D.C95BFAB9@corp.earthlink.net>
	<q6mog8hnrzf.fsf@spartacus.utdallas.edu>
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Amos,

I've actually already been there but the paper didn't cover whats required to
make an application PAM aware.

Thanks for that though.

Mike

Amos Gouaux wrote:

> >>>>> On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:51:41 -0800,
> >>>>> Mike Broadwater <broadh2o@corp.earthlink.net> (mb) writes:
>
> mb> ** In order for me to get an application to utilize the PAM modules do I
> mb> need to include the PAM libraries when the application source is
> mb> compiled.  If so, what are the libraries in Solaris 2.6?  If not what
> mb> can I do to get the app to work with PAM?  Thanks in advance.
>
> Oh I just ran across some pages about this at Sun.  Now, where was
> that....
>
> Oh yeah: http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/pam/
>
> I've done some PAM stuff, but I bet those references cover it pretty
> well so I'll leave it at that.
>
> Amos



From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar 15 07:07:28 2000
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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:07:16 -0500
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Todd Olson <tco2@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Distribution of Job Listings
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Hi


>What I'm wondering is the best way to write up and distribute
>the job listing.  I know some of this is covered in the Hiring
>SysAdmin short topic book, but I'm looking more toward how
>to find a really Junior sysadmin to bring in.  
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Such people probably haunt universities.
Students with clues frequently work at campus computing centers.
Talking with the staff members that have to find students that
do the grunt work of the computer labs, or help centers is likely to
be fruitful.  Also, if the university has a career center, you might
get help from there. 

Secondary colleges tend to have courses in computer admin, etc.
I'm not sure how clueful the populations is in these places,
but you could contact instructors of these courses.  I suspect
they would like to be able to say that one of their students got
a job with Asic Int. Inc.

Regards,
Todd Olson
Cornell University



From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar 15 09:19:54 2000
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From: "Duregon, Marino" <Marino_Duregon@mentorg.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: the Unix Review saga continues ...
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:19:16 -0800
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... lets' hope for the best

see below

> **********************************************************************
> 
> Performance Computing Is Now UNIXREVIEW.COM !!
> 
> **********************************************************************
> 
> You've made it clear that you valued the content of Performance
> Computing magazine (aka UNIX Review). So, in response to your
> letters and support, we're taking the content online as unixreview.com!
> We will also continue to mail this newsletter as a unixreview.com extra.
> 
> We're launching unixreview.com as a community site addressing UNIX
> administration, development, Linux, news, security, and other essential
> topics with the knowledge and experience you've come to expect from
> UNIX Review.
> 
> unixreview.com will encompass the existing performancecomputing.com,
> linux-IT.com, and unixiNTegration.com Web sites, along with the Sys
> Admin magazine site, to create a UNIX technical professional community
> under the familiar UNIX Review name. Thus, new information, as well
> as much that was vital to the print magazine, will soon be available
> online.  You can check out the welcome message from the site's Editor in
> Chief, Michael Swaine at: http://www.unixreview.com.
> 
> We will also offer a new column from Stan Kelly-Bootle (Stan's Computer
> Contradictionary), Perl advice from Randal L. Schwartz, backup expertise
> from W. Curtis Preston, as well as book reviews and news. At this time,
> we're working on the evolution of the site, but Stan's column and
> Randal's Perl column are there. Check back for more new features later
> this week. Thanks for your support! -- Amber Ankerholz, Editor in Chief,
> Sys Admin Magazine
> 
> **********************************************************************


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar 15 10:10:45 2000
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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:09:19 -0800
From: Mike Broadwater <broadh2o@corp.earthlink.net>
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To: Steve Hillman <hillman@sfu.ca>
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Subject: Re: PAM Pluggable Authentication Module
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Steve,

I was referring to modifying an existing application that doesn't currently
support PAM. Its kinda odd that I can't find any information about how to
accomplish this.  What I have found in the case of Linux is that all  I would need
to do is to link in a couple of libraries so that the app becomes PAM aware.  Once
the app was PAM aware I could then go along with developing my own modules.
Thanks for the heads up on qpopper.

Mike

Steve Hillman wrote:

> At 04:31 PM 03/14/2000 -0800, you wrote:
> >Amos,
> >
> >I've actually already been there but the paper didn't cover whats required to
> >make an application PAM aware.
> >
>
> So are you talking about modifying an existing application that doesn't
> support PAM into supporting it? Or just how to link it into the PAM
> libraries at compile time?
>
> If the application doesn't currently have PAM support, you'll obviously
> need to hack the C source around the authentication modules. If you can't
> find docs on how to do this (I've never done it, so I don't know of any),
> you can always try learning by example. Take an existing app with PAM
> support and disect its PAM code.
>
> One such application that's recently had PAM support added is qpopper, the
> POP daemon from Qualcomm. You can find it at http://www.qpopper.com
>
> Steve Hillman                           hillman@sfu.ca
> Senior Systems Administrator            (604) 291-3960
> Simon Fraser University



From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar 15 10:53:27 2000
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From: Michael Coxe <mc@com21.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Distribution of Job Listings
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Todd @ Cornell expounds:
>
>Secondary colleges tend to have courses in computer admin, etc.
>I'm not sure how clueful the populations is in these places,

Cornell, isn't that one of those GE College Bowl affiliates??
I think you've been smoking too much ivy & brick slivers in
the cloisters  :-)

 - michael, AAS 1978 & 21 years silicon valley SoHK


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar 15 11:57:19 2000
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From: Jeff Bryer <bryer@sfu.ca>
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Subject: Backup recommendations sought
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We are in the process of redesigning our backup system.  Currently
we have one NetApp F740, a variety of SUN servers and one Linux
machine.  The DLT 4700 jukeboxes we use are about at their limit
for capacity so it's time to get some new, bigger, hardware.  And
the software we use is BudTool which we will soon lose support on
when Legato EOL's it (we've been told we have support until at least
Jan 1, 2001).  

So now I'm looking for both hardware and software recommendations.
We use both CIFS and NFS on the filer.  We want to back up the filer
via NDMP with a direct SCSI attached jukebox (or jukeboxes) or via
fibre and a Vixel switch (or equiv).  We have been looking at AIT-2
which after some digging appears to work via direct connect although
our NetApp rep keeps telling us it doesn't.  We've been very happy
with the reliability of the DLT drives/media and have been burned in
the past with Exabyte 8mm.  Some of us are reluctant to return to
helical scan media.

For the near future we'll be backing up to 500GBs of data/week.  We
have been receiving interest to expand the back ups to cover more
systems on campus which could mean backing up to 3-5TB+ of data.
Essentially we want hardware/software which has the growth potential.

We're getting a second filer and for security reasons we need to keep it
separate from our existing filer.  We were looking at the SpectraLogic
Gator library which would allow us to split the SCSI bus and dedicate
specific drives to the individual filers.  We'd prefer (need) to use
2 backup servers (one for the existing filer/SUNs, one for the new
filer) so we need software that can support this.

The 2 main choices for software seem to be Legato (NetWorker/Celestra)
or Veritas (NetBackup).  What about QuickRestore from WorkStation
Solutions?  That product has the advantage that the archives are
compatible with tar (in the case of disaster recovery).  Having software
that we can roll our Netware backups into would be a plus.

Thanks,
Jeff

-- 
Jeff Bryer 				bryer@sfu.ca
Systems Administrator			(604) 291-4935
Academic Computing, Simon Fraser University


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar 15 13:42:46 2000
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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:42:27 -0500
From: Joseph S D Yao <jsdy@tux.org>
To: Mike Broadwater <broadh2o@corp.earthlink.net>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: PAM Pluggable Authentication Module
Message-ID: <20000315164227.C2521@gwyn.tux.org>
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On Tue, Mar 14, 2000 at 11:51:41AM -0800, Mike Broadwater wrote:
> SAGE Members,
> 
> Can anyone tell me:
> 
> ** In order for me to get an application to utilize the PAM modules do I
> need to include the PAM libraries when the application source is
> compiled.  If so, what are the libraries in Solaris 2.6?  If not what
> can I do to get the app to work with PAM?  Thanks in advance.
> 
> Regards,
> Mike

A 'man libpam' tells me:

File Formats                                            libpam(4)

NAME
     libpam - interface library for PAM (Pluggable Authentication
     Module)

SYNOPSIS
     cc [ flag ... ] file ...  -lpam [ library ... ]
                               -----

     #include <security/pam_appl.h>

DESCRIPTION
     The shared object libpam.so.1 provides the public interfaces
     defined below.

     For additional information on shared object interfaces,  see
     intro(4).
...

and more, including routine names, and:

...
FILES
     /usr/lib/libpam.so.1                 File  that   implements
                                          the    PAM    framework
                                          library.
     /etc/pam.conf                        Configuration file.
     /usr/lib/security/pam_dial_auth.so.1 Authentication  manage-
                                          ment   PAM  module  for
                                          dialups.
     /usr/lib/security/pam_rhosts_auth.so.1
                                          Authentication  manage-
                                          ment  PAM  modules that
                                          use ruserok().
     /usr/lib/security/pam_sample.so.1    Sample PAM module.
     /usr/lib/security/pam_unix.so.1      Authentication,
                                          account,   session  and
                                          password management PAM
                                          module.
...
SEE ALSO
     pvs(1),  pam(3),   intro(4),   pam.conf(4),   attributes(5),
     pam_dial_auth(5),     pam_rhosts_auth(5),     pam_sample(5),
     pam_unix(5)

NOTES
     The interfaces in libpam() are MT-Safe only if  each  thread
     within  the multi-threaded application uses its own PAM han-
     dle.

HTH.  Is this the information that you needed?

-- 
/*********************************************************************\
**
** Joe Yao				jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao
**
\*********************************************************************/


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar 15 14:22:56 2000
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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:21:51 -0800
From: Mike Broadwater <broadh2o@corp.earthlink.net>
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Hello Sage Members,

Thanks for all your expert input.  I think I now have enough information to
make some informed decisions on whether to try and implement PAM into
applications.

Regards,
Mike B.

Joseph S D Yao wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 14, 2000 at 11:51:41AM -0800, Mike Broadwater wrote:
> > SAGE Members,
> >
> > Can anyone tell me:
> >
> > ** In order for me to get an application to utilize the PAM modules do I
> > need to include the PAM libraries when the application source is
> > compiled.  If so, what are the libraries in Solaris 2.6?  If not what
> > can I do to get the app to work with PAM?  Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Mike
>
> A 'man libpam' tells me:
>
> File Formats                                            libpam(4)
>
> NAME
>      libpam - interface library for PAM (Pluggable Authentication
>      Module)
>
> SYNOPSIS
>      cc [ flag ... ] file ...  -lpam [ library ... ]
>                                -----
>
>      #include <security/pam_appl.h>
>
> DESCRIPTION
>      The shared object libpam.so.1 provides the public interfaces
>      defined below.
>
>      For additional information on shared object interfaces,  see
>      intro(4).
> ...
>
> and more, including routine names, and:
>
> ...
> FILES
>      /usr/lib/libpam.so.1                 File  that   implements
>                                           the    PAM    framework
>                                           library.
>      /etc/pam.conf                        Configuration file.
>      /usr/lib/security/pam_dial_auth.so.1 Authentication  manage-
>                                           ment   PAM  module  for
>                                           dialups.
>      /usr/lib/security/pam_rhosts_auth.so.1
>                                           Authentication  manage-
>                                           ment  PAM  modules that
>                                           use ruserok().
>      /usr/lib/security/pam_sample.so.1    Sample PAM module.
>      /usr/lib/security/pam_unix.so.1      Authentication,
>                                           account,   session  and
>                                           password management PAM
>                                           module.
> ...
> SEE ALSO
>      pvs(1),  pam(3),   intro(4),   pam.conf(4),   attributes(5),
>      pam_dial_auth(5),     pam_rhosts_auth(5),     pam_sample(5),
>      pam_unix(5)
>
> NOTES
>      The interfaces in libpam() are MT-Safe only if  each  thread
>      within  the multi-threaded application uses its own PAM han-
>      dle.
>
> HTH.  Is this the information that you needed?
>
> --
> /*********************************************************************\
> **
> ** Joe Yao                              jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao
> **
> \*********************************************************************/



From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar 15 15:41:33 2000
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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:41:19 -0500
From: Joseph S D Yao <jsdy@tux.org>
To: Michael Coxe <mc@com21.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Distribution of Job Listings
Message-ID: <20000315184119.P2521@gwyn.tux.org>
References: <20000314184039.A8685@asicint.com>
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On Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 10:53:12AM -0800, Michael Coxe wrote:
> Todd @ Cornell expounds:
> >
> >Secondary colleges tend to have courses in computer admin, etc.
> >I'm not sure how clueful the populations is in these places,
> 
> Cornell, isn't that one of those GE College Bowl affiliates??
> I think you've been smoking too much ivy & brick slivers in
> the cloisters  :-)
> 
>  - michael, AAS 1978 & 21 years silicon valley SoHK

That was pretty un-called-for, unless you can uniformly guarantee the
cluefulness of the populations of all secondary colleges.  Note that he
was just saying that he wasn't sure.  This may or may not have been a
way of politely saying that he has found at least one bozo on that bus.

-- 
/*********************************************************************\
**
** Joe Yao				jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao
**
\*********************************************************************/


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar 15 18:42:15 2000
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I'm not a NT person and managed to fubar one of our machines...

Problem:  I installed software on a PC running NT 4.0 TSE and now it won't
boot.  The software in question is for upgrading the firmware on a router
from Linksys.

Machine: NT 4.0 Terminal Server Edition, SP3, also runs Citrix Metaframe.

Error:  I get the blue screen which says "1 system processor.  128MB
memory, etc."  then 3 dots march across the screen (...).  this is soon
followed by "Windows Logon Process Terminated Unexpectedly".  c0x000021a
Fatal System Error".  it then reboots and the process repeats.

What I've tried:
  
  - i hit Space to bring up the last known good configuration.  no luck.

  - i booted from NT Workstation setup disks and used the NT Rescue Disk
created for this system.  this process uncovered some files which were
different but i didn't commit any changes since i wasn't exactly sure what
this would do.

   - i have NTFSDOS Pro from http://www.sysinternals.com.  This lets me
boot DOS and mount a NTFS partition.  I can edit/view NT files this way. i
cleared out all traces of the Linksys software.  this included the stuff i
originally downloaded to C:\TEMP and the stuff which it installed in
C:\Program Files.

  - i found C:\WTSERV\setup.ini which was empty.  since i couldn't make
things any worse i removed it and rebooted.  now NT ran chkdsk when
starting up, made some repairs, and rebooted.  still the same problem
though.  it won't boot.

  - Tech support from Linksys has been pretty bad.  i can't get anyone on
the phone who knows exactly what their software does.  it appears to
install a tftp server though.  they say that the registry isn't touched by
their software.

i've exhausted my knowledge of NT.  am i following the right
strategy?  i'm used to fixing these things in UNIX by booting in single
user mode and editing startup scripts.  maybe i should change my way of
thinking here.  

any tips would be welcomed.

---matt



From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 16 05:24:15 2000
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References: <0D7E878509BED111BEAC00A0C9A3CA6001340F9F@granite.plpt.com>
Subject: Re: Gigabit Ethernet over Copper (802.3z & 802.3ab)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 07:22:20 -0600
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Extreme Networks I believe.  They are mainly gigabit switches, and
their local
'hubs' are the only thing that you can over commit the gigabit
switch with (24 100
Base T ports, feed into one gigabit pipe).



From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 16 05:34:19 2000
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Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:34:14 -0500
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Hi

>Todd @ Cornell expounds:
> >
> >Secondary colleges tend to have courses in computer admin, etc.
> >I'm not sure how clueful the populations is in these places,
>
>Cornell, isn't that one of those GE College Bowl affiliates??
>I think you've been smoking too much ivy & brick slivers in
>the cloisters  :-)
>
> - michael, AAS 1978 & 21 years silicon valley SoHK



Hum ... yes, I see that my words could be insulting.
I apologize.

I based my remarks on my interactions with some people at a near by 
community college who unfortunately were not as clueful as one would
hope.  It was inappropriate of me to generalize from one data point.

Again I apologize.

Regards,
Todd Olson



From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 16 12:18:17 2000
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Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:18:07 -0800
From: Michael Coxe <mc@com21.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Distribution of Job Listings
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And just to close the book, I apologize too. I really meant only 
to poke fun at Ivy League school attitudes about us little folks 
with a public education. Apologies to Todd and fellow Sage'rs.

 - michael coxe


From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 16 14:47:59 2000
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Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:50:45 -0700 (MST)
From: Yves Dorfsman <dorfsmay@cuug.ab.ca>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: collecting statistics
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Hi,

What do you guys think of the different products out there used to collect
statistics from machines ??

One of my customer want to consolidate stats for all their servers (SUN
and HP), to be able to do trend analysis etc...

They are currently using HP MeasureWare, are quite happy with it but were
wondering if there's something better out there.

I've written a bunch of scripts that pull the graphs out of HP Perfview,
and put them on a web page on a regular basis, and they're thinking on
just pushing this a bit further, as the full blown comercial alternatives
don't seem to offer anything more.

What do YOU use ?
What do you like about it, and why did you pick this one ??


Thanks,


Yves.
----
Yves Dorfsman                                        dorfsmay@cuug.ab.ca
                                         http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~dorfsmay



From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 17 17:02:10 2000
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Hi Jeff--

We use Legato. Our environment is about 100 servers (Solaris on sparc
and x86, Linux, and 2 F760 filers with over a TB of storage on the
filers alone). I'm not terribly happy with Legato (there is a current
bug with the filers and Legato that is interrupting autosupport mail on
the filers but a patch is to be out early next week).  I am not a back
up expert but I've heard more positive things about Net Backup as far as
backing up a filer. You may want to subscribe to the following list for
people interested in both NetApp and Enterprise backup issues:

To subscribe: bigbackup-request@ccs.neu.edu
To send to the list: bigbackup@ccs.neu.edu

I'm sure you can get better feedback there.

--Melinda :o)

Jeff Bryer wrote:
> 
> We are in the process of redesigning our backup system.  Currently
> we have one NetApp F740, a variety of SUN servers and one Linux
> machine.  The DLT 4700 jukeboxes we use are about at their limit
> for capacity so it's time to get some new, bigger, hardware.  And
> the software we use is BudTool which we will soon lose support on
> when Legato EOL's it (we've been told we have support until at least
> Jan 1, 2001).
> 
> So now I'm looking for both hardware and software recommendations.
> We use both CIFS and NFS on the filer.  We want to back up the filer
> via NDMP with a direct SCSI attached jukebox (or jukeboxes) or via
> fibre and a Vixel switch (or equiv).  We have been looking at AIT-2
> which after some digging appears to work via direct connect although
> our NetApp rep keeps telling us it doesn't.  We've been very happy
> with the reliability of the DLT drives/media and have been burned in
> the past with Exabyte 8mm.  Some of us are reluctant to return to
> helical scan media.
> 
> For the near future we'll be backing up to 500GBs of data/week.  We
> have been receiving interest to expand the back ups to cover more
> systems on campus which could mean backing up to 3-5TB+ of data.
> Essentially we want hardware/software which has the growth potential.
> 
> We're getting a second filer and for security reasons we need to keep it
> separate from our existing filer.  We were looking at the SpectraLogic
> Gator library which would allow us to split the SCSI bus and dedicate
> specific drives to the individual filers.  We'd prefer (need) to use
> 2 backup servers (one for the existing filer/SUNs, one for the new
> filer) so we need software that can support this.
> 
> The 2 main choices for software seem to be Legato (NetWorker/Celestra)
> or Veritas (NetBackup).  What about QuickRestore from WorkStation
> Solutions?  That product has the advantage that the archives are
> compatible with tar (in the case of disaster recovery).  Having software
> that we can roll our Netware backups into would be a plus.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jeff
> 
> --
> Jeff Bryer                              bryer@sfu.ca
> Systems Administrator                   (604) 291-4935
> Academic Computing, Simon Fraser University

-- Melinda  :o)


From sage-members-owner  Sun Mar 19 19:46:26 2000
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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:45:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Sabrina Downard <viv@ziggurat.org>
Reply-To: viv@ziggurat.org
To: SAGE-Members@usenix.org
Subject: Policy audit
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Facing a potentially-hostile audit of our six-person shop (of which one is
a network engineer, I'm the sysadmin, and the others are all television
folks), I'm trying to get our ducks in a row because our feeling is that
the audit is being conducted by a biased third-party with the intention of
dissolving our organization.  It might be a done deal but we want to make
it as difficult to justify as possible.  :)  I'm taking a survey of folks
I know and would be immensely grateful for any help y'all can provide...
including humor and survival tips.  :-)

Question 1. If you were auditing networking services to see what was done
well and what needs improvement, what would you look for?  Such as,
documentation of tech support call numbers, history of maintenance, and
how we handle unexpected outages, etc.  (I'm not a finance person so I'm
looking for strictly computer engineering points here.)  If you were
looking for faults on which to capitalize, where would you look first?

Question 2. If you were a sysadmin walking in to a role where you were the
one person stuck with six mystery servers, and nobody else knew a thing
about the machines, what documentation would you look for?  What is your
dream where you could just sit down and read a couple printouts and know
basically everything you needed? Info on backups, RAID devices, support
contracts, the sendmail.cf, whatever.

Please respond to me privately; I'll summarize to the group if
there's interest.  Thanks in advance for any responses.  :)


-- 
sabrina  downard ~ Madness takes its toll.  Please have exact change.
viv@ziggurat.org ~ Soapmaker's Resources: http://www.ziggurat.org/soap/

"Lead me not into temptation; I can find the way myself." -- Rita Mae Brown



From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 23 10:08:38 2000
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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:08:20 +0100
From: Anthony Howe <achowe@snert.com>
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One of our users received thousands of messages, which in turned tied up
ALL our file descriptors essentially locking up our Linux server.

----

From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 23 12:04:06 2000
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To: Anthony Howe <achowe@snert.com>
Cc: SAGE <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Mail flooding in Sendmail?
References: <38DA5D94.FEFA7D7A@snert.com>
From: dsr@mail.lns.cornell.edu (Daniel S. Riley)
Date: 23 Mar 2000 15:03:27 -0500
In-Reply-To: Anthony Howe's message of "Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:08:20 +0100"
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Anthony Howe <achowe@snert.com> writes:
> Its sendmail's acceptance of the null address that really worries me. 
> Is it a security hole for denial of service / mail flooding?

SMTP is full of potential denial of service attacks.  This may be one,
but it's also a host requirement according to RFC1123:

      5.2.9  Command Syntax: RFC-821 Section 4.1.2

         The syntax shown in RFC-821 for the MAIL FROM: command omits
         the case of an empty path:  "MAIL FROM: <>" (see RFC-821 Page
         15).  An empty reverse path MUST be supported.

An empty reverse path is often used for reporting errors, and sites
(including ours) have been known to get very annoyed at and even
refuse mail from sites that refuse mail from <>.
-- 
Dan Riley                                         dsr@mail.lns.cornell.edu
Wilson Lab, Cornell University      <URL:http://www.lns.cornell.edu/~dsr/>
    "History teaches us that days like this are best spent in bed"


From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 23 13:19:48 2000
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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:20:37 -0800
To: Anthony Howe <achowe@snert.com>, SAGE <sage-members@usenix.org>
From: "Derek J. Balling" <dredd@megacity.org>
Subject: Re: Mail flooding in Sendmail?
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The from in the smtp envelope can be ANYTHING. You can be mail-flooded by 
people sending "MAIL FROM: <>" in the SMTP handshaking, just as easily as 
"MAIL FROM: <somebody@someother.domain.com>" ... You are just as flooded, 
and have only achieved a false sense of security.

Disallowing the <> "null address" is a violation of the RFC's. It is how 
bounce messages are sent. Bounces come from <>, so that, if the bounce 
bounces, they can be "handled" appropriately.

This is an excellent time for someone to mention the benefits of quotas and 
filesystem limits, etc., rather than evaluating one more way to break mail. :)

D

At 07:08 PM 3/23/00 +0100, Anthony Howe wrote:
>One of our users received thousands of messages, which in turned tied up
>ALL our file descriptors essentially locking up our Linux server.
>
>----
> >From MAILER-DAEMON@mail.alcyonis.fr  Thu Mar 23 11:38:32 2000
>Return-Path: <>
>Received: from magnolia.wanadoo.fr (smtp-rt-11.wanadoo.fr
>[193.252.19.62] (may be forged))
>         by mail.alcyonis.fr (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA01507
>         for <accueil@stanislas-cannes.com>; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:38:31
>GMT
>Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:38:31 GMT
>Received: from amyris.wanadoo.fr (193.252.19.150) by
>magnolia.wanadoo.fr; 23 Mar 2000 11:39:56 +0100
>Received: from microsoft.com (164.138.13.106) by amyris.wanadoo.fr; 23
>Mar 2000 11:39:54 +0100
>Message-ID: <38d9f47b38e50591@amyris.wanadoo.fr> (added by
>amyris.wanadoo.fr)
>To: <REMOVED BY SELF>
>Status: O
>
>
>
>bande de cons on veut des rideaux !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>----
>
>The only distingishing thing is the Return-Path: being <>.  I suspect
>the attacker is using a program that connects to our SMTP server and
>sends "MAIL FROM: <>", which sendmail happily accepts.
>
>We upgraded to 8.10.0 and the problem appears to remain.  Reading the
>cf/README file for 8.10.0 suggests a rule for headers.  SO I added the
>following :
>
>LOCAL_RULESETS
>HReturn-Path: $>CheckReturnPath
>
>SCheckReturnPath
>R< $+ @ $+ >    $@ OK
>R$*             $#error $: 553 Header Error
>
>However this does not do what I expect, which is to REJECT messages
>where the Return-Path is the null address.  Not being a sendmail macro
>guru, I'm lost how to prevent this attack.
>
>BTW we have contacted wanadoo.fr and they have closed the account.  But
>we expect he'll try another temporary account with another provider
>tomorrow.
>
>Its sendmail's acceptance of the null address that really worries me.
>Is it a security hole for denial of service / mail flooding?
>
>--
>Anthony C Howe          1489 Ch. des Collines, 06110 Le Cannet, France
>+33 (0)6 1189 7378 (p)  +33 (0)4 9346 8901 (f)            ICQ# 7116561
>mailto:achowe@snert.com                          http://www.snert.com/



From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 23 22:40:08 2000
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Message-ID: <38DB0C60.A831D36D@midsouth.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:34:08 -0600
From: Chris Greer <cgreer1@midsouth.rr.com>
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To: "Derek J. Balling" <dredd@megacity.org>
CC: Anthony Howe <achowe@snert.com>, SAGE <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Mail flooding in Sendmail?
References: <4.3.1.2.20000323131225.00b6d2e0@mail.megacity.org>
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One option (depending on your situation) might be to turn on connection 
throttling for sendmail.  We had to do this and put in an additional
machine(s) in the MX record so that if we were ever flodded, they end up
spooling on the backup higher MX record server if the main server didn't
accept the connections.  
This worked in our situation, but it may not in yours. 

Chris G.


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 24 01:01:20 2000
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Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:01:07 +0100
From: Anthony Howe <achowe@snert.com>
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Thank you everyone for your input.

1) MAIL FROM: <> is allowed by STD 10, RFC 821, RFC 1123.

2) Possible to flood from a valid email addresss equally well.

3) Consider disk quotas, mail throttling.


-- 
Anthony C Howe          1489 Ch. des Collines, 06110 Le Cannet, France
+33 (0)6 1189 7378 (p)  +33 (0)4 9346 8901 (f)            ICQ# 7116561
mailto:achowe@snert.com                          http://www.snert.com/


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 24 07:45:20 2000
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Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:41:47 -0500
From: Tom Limoncelli <tal@plts.org>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: SAGE feature request
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When you become a SAGE member you give your name and address.  Wouldn't
it be cool if you _also_ gave your boss's name and address?  Then the
yearly salary survey results could be mailed directly to your boss.
Same with the appropriate "short topics" books.

I'm not sure if I'm joking or not.

--tal

-- 
     Tom Limoncelli -- http://www.bell-labs.com/user/tal -- tal@bell-labs.com
  "Cautious, careful people, always casting about to preserve their reputation
         and social standing, can never bring about a reform." Susan B Anthony


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 24 09:15:57 2000
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From: Jeff Tyler <jeff@jthome.com>
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Subject: Re: SAGE feature request
To: tal@plts.org (Tom Limoncelli)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:15:37 -0600 (CST)
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <20000324104147.28481@plts.org> from "Tom Limoncelli" at Mar 24,
	2000 10:41:47 AM
Organization: Rarely if ever ;-)
Location: Where ever I go, then there I am.
Phone: (512)-263-0417
System: FreeBSD jthome.jthome.com 3.3-RELEASE
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FWIW the first thing I do is mail the results to our CEO and all senior
management.  I also send SANs results, IT week, DOC, ...  We're a sysadmin
centric consulting company and this sort of data is critical to us.

JT
"Tom Limoncelli says:"
> 
> When you become a SAGE member you give your name and address.  Wouldn't
> it be cool if you _also_ gave your boss's name and address?  Then the
> yearly salary survey results could be mailed directly to your boss.
> Same with the appropriate "short topics" books.
> 
> I'm not sure if I'm joking or not.
> 
> --tal
> 
> -- 
>      Tom Limoncelli -- http://www.bell-labs.com/user/tal -- tal@bell-labs.com
>   "Cautious, careful people, always casting about to preserve their reputation
>          and social standing, can never bring about a reform." Susan B Anthony
> 
> 


-- 
=========================================================================
|Jeffrey S. Tyler                        Office  512-263-0770 ext 267   |      
|Chief Information Officer               Mobile  512-699-8225           | 
|Collective Technologies    www.colltech.com     jtyler@colltech.com    |
=========================================================================



From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 24 09:26:07 2000
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To: Tom Limoncelli <tal@plts.org>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: SAGE feature request 
In-reply-to: Tom Limoncelli's message of Fri,
	24 Mar 2000 10:41:47 EST <20000324104147.28481@plts.org> 
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() When you become a SAGE member you give your name and address.  Wouldn't
() it be cool if you _also_ gave your boss's name and address?  Then the
() yearly salary survey results could be mailed directly to your boss.
() Same with the appropriate "short topics" books.

You better also give your salary, so your boss will only be mailed
if you are below the average.

() I'm not sure if I'm joking or not.

Hmm, let's see...

    Ciao, Lobo



From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 24 11:11:39 2000
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From: Theo Van Dinter <felicity@kluge.net>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: SAGE feature request
Message-ID: <20000324141131.G17399@eclectic.kluge.net>
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On Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 06:25:30PM +0100, Alexander Lobodzinski wrote:
> You better also give your salary, so your boss will only be mailed
> if you are below the average.

At my last employer, I decided to give the SAGE salary survey along with a
few other surveys to my boss.  After reading a bit, he was convinced SAGE was
a union, setting standard pay levels for SAs (he apparently missed that
'survey' part at the top...)

I was going to set him straight, but I got a good raise out of it, so I let
him be.  8)

-- 
Randomly Generated Tagline:
"MSDOS didn't get as bad as it is overnight -- it took over ten years
 of careful development."
 (By dmeggins@aix1.uottawa.ca)


From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 27 07:16:09 2000
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To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Mike Knell <mike.knell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Appletalk - the summary
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:15:53 +0100
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Hi,

A while ago, I asked:

> At the moment, my entire institution is one big switched Ethernet, which
> is all very well but for the levels of noise, broadcast crud and the
> resulting storms that you get from a few thousand hosts sharing the 
> same level 2 broadcast space. We've had problems recently where one
> chattering host can basically take the entire network out until it's
> tracked down and shot.
> 
> To alleviate this, I'm planning on putting a proxy-arping FreeBSD
> box between my network and the rest of college, as a filter to 
> cut down on the noise levels and generally make things nicer. However,
> Appletalk is kind of necessary for the Macintoshes around the place, and
> atalkd (part of netatalk) is giving me huge problems. When set up as a
> router, it will run for a while, but then the machine just hangs -
> wedges solid, power cycle necessary, pushing up electronic daisies.
> All in all, a bit of a cock-up on the Appletalk front.

And the majority of responses agreed, with something long the lines of:

a) Macs are perfectly capable of running TCP/IP these days out of the
   box. AppleshareIP clients come bundled with macs, and have done 
   since at least Appleshare 3.7. Appleshare IP servers are a little 
   more tricky, and may require MacOS 9.
b) Printing will be a tougher issue - Macs can do LPR with a client from
   Apple.
c) Big networks are just too big for netatalk to deal with. You need a
   dedicated router rather than a freebsd box for high-traffic
   applications.
d) Many networks are just not supporting Appletalk any more. Even Apple
   don't really seem to be doing so. It seems to be going the way of
   the dodo.
e) CAP and UAR are also an alternative (ftp://munnari.oz.au/mac/)
f) Appletalk's dynamic assignment stuff is scary. Be very afraid, and
   be careful with setting up seed routers and the like.

My further investigations have very much confirmed the above, with a 
few additions:
a) Careful debugging of kernel crash dumps (not by myself, I confess) has
   found an obscure bug in the kernel netatalk code in FreeBSD, which is
   probably in every Unix implementation derived from the same code. We
   now have a patch, and netatalk runs just peachy, and has done for the
   last three days. This makes the box a candidate for installing in 
   production mode, at least as a stopgap.
b) uar doesn't compile cleanly on freebsd - it seems to have multicasting
   problems. haven't had the time to actually track down and fix. well, it
   compiles fine, but doesn't run properly (yup, I have got berkeley packet
   filtering enabled)
c) Appletalk's really hairy, kinda chatty, and not really suited to big
   networks. I can imagine it being lovely in smaller ones without much
   connectivity to worry about, though.
d) Running some in-service testing (i.e. those things you do just to 
   annoy the users) of an IP-only gateway showed that while Appletalk
   browsing is, obviously, disabled, newer versions of MacOS have a 
   little pointing hand icon in the, er, network browser (what the chooser
   has become) that allows a hostname to be manually entered into a text
   box. This seems to work fine. 
e) There's really no substitute for a dedicated router for long-term
   use.

Thanks to everyone who helped - namely Philip Brown, Steve Hillman, Mark
Wallen, Todd Olson, John Speno, Mark Mach, matt@ucsf, and DL Hilton.
And more thanks to David Malone and Ian Dowse, BSD gurus in TCD's maths
department.

Mike

-- 
Computer Science System Administrator, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland
       mike.knell@cs.tcd.ie -=- http://www.cs.tcd.ie/Mike.Knell/


From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 27 09:25:21 2000
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To: sage-members@sage.org
Subject: March Memo to Members
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:24:59 -0600
From: David Parter <dparter@cs.wisc.edu>
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The March 2000 Memo to Members is now on the web at 
    http://www.usenix.org/sage/people/execmemos/summary3-00.html

At the request of some members, the full text is included below,
however, the web version is easier to read.

	 --david

SAGE MEMO TO MEMBERS
March 2000

The SAGE Memo to Members will be posted on the SAGE Web site and sent to the
sage-members mailing list after every SAGE Executive Committee meeting, and
at appropriate times between meetings, to inform the SAGE members of the
activities of the executive committee and the organization.

Please send comments, questions, and ideas to sage-exec@usenix.org or
sage-members@usenix.org for wider discussion.

Members are encouraged to send email with any comments, ideas, concerns or
questions to the the SAGE Executive Committee (sage-exec@usenix.org), or to
the specific person identified with each area below.

Contents

   * SAGE Executive Committee Meetings
   * Executive Committee Membership and Officers
   * Certification Project
   * SAGE Marketing, Visibility and Outreach
   * sage.org
   * Publications
   * Sysadmin Education
   * Foundations of Systems Administration Summit Meeting
   * Salary Survey
   * Mailing Lists
   * Conferences

SAGE Executive Committee Meetings

   The SAGE Executive Committee met in Berkeley CA on January 23-24,
   2000. The next in-person meeting will be March 24 (at the SANS
   conference). In addition to in-person meetings, the Executive
   Committee meets via conference call as needed.

   The January meeting was productive, and the Executive Committee is
   looking forward to an active year. In addition to ``regular
   business'', the agenda included a review of the SAGE charter, vision,
   and mission statements (see http://www.usenix.org/sage/official/).
   There was general agreement that while they could use some
   refinement, they are still valid and do not need to be revised at
   this time.

   The Executive Committee also set short-term goals for the year, including:

      * Implement Phase I of the certification program
      * Updated Job Descriptions booklet
      * Convene Foundations of Systems Administration summit meeting
      * Increase visibility of SAGE among members
      * Continue/improve SAGE salary survey
      * Facilitate public relations for SAGE at USENIX/SAGE and other events
      * Improve SAGE website and make it more useful to members

Executive Committee Membership and Officers

   In accordance with the SAGE Articles of Organization, Bruce Alan Wynn
   (wynn@usenix.org) has been appointed to fill the remainder of Tim
   Gassaway's term. The executive committee thanks Tim for his service
   on the executive committee.

   Information on the SAGE Executive Committee is on the web at
   http://www.usenix.org/sage/people/Current-Board.html.

Certification Project

   Last year, SAGE commissioned the Human Resources Research
   Organization (HumRRO) to design and analyze a system administrator
   occupational/job analysis and advise SAGE on a certification
   program. Over 1200 system administrators participated in the survey,
   more than enough to make valid statistical inferences. The Executive
   Committee reviewed the results, developed a certification roadmap,
   and decided to proceed with Phase I of the SAGE Certification
   Project.
   
   The credibility and success of the project requires the thoughtful
   participation of SAGE members on two advisory committees:
   
      * policy, procedures, and planning
      * test development (in consultation with HumRRO).
   
   If you are interested in serving on either committee, or have any
   other comments on the Certification Project, please contact Barb
   Dijker (barb@usenix.org) or the SAGE executive committee
   (sage-exec@usenix.org).
   
   More information on the Certification Project is on the web:
   
      * Certification Project home page
        (http://www.usenix.org/sage/cert/index.html)
      
      * Certification 2000: update and roadmap
        (http://www.usenix.org/sage/cert/latest.html)
      
      * Occupational Analysis Executive Summary
        (http://www.usenix.org/sage/cert/exec_summ.html)
   
SAGE Marketing, Visibility, and Outreach
   
   At the SAGE community meeting held at LISA '99, one area of
   particular interest to the members was promoting SAGE and increasing
   our visibility both within the sysadmin community and to
   management. The executive committee shares in this concern and
   interest. At the January meeting, we had extensive discussions on
   this topic with the USENIX marketing staff.
   
   Some of the ideas we are working on include:
   
      * Increased presence and visibility at events other than LISA,
        such as other Usenix conferences and other conferences with the
        right target audience.

      * Updating of the SAGE Jobs Descriptions booklet
    
      * Producing materials to help our members (our most valuable
        resource) increase our visibility at work,

      * Events such as the Sysadmin "Day in the Life", including a
        public relations and marketing plan.

      * Developing (with USENIX) a comprehensive public relations
        program, including better press contact and general marketing
        information, to improve the visibility of SAGE and systems
        administration as a profession.
   
sage.org
   
   In conjunction with SAGE-AU and SAGE-WISE (and soon to be joined by
   other SAGE organizations now being formed) SAGE is developing a
   "global entry point" Web site at WWW.SAGE.ORG. This new domain name
   and Web site will feature in the forthcoming marketing campaigns.
   
Internationals and Locals
   
   In addition to the well established SAGE-AU (formed in 1993) and
   SAGE-WISE (formed in 1999) international groups, SAGE organizations
   are now forming in several other countries and areas including
   Scandinavia, New Zealand, Israel and Portugal. More information on
   these will appear on the SAGE.ORG Web site as they develop.
   
   Ten local groups have now registered as affiliated SAGE local groups,
   and several more are expected to do so in the near future. In
   addition to the ten affiliated groups, 16 local groups are listed on
   the SAGE ``locals'' web page
   (http://www.usenix.org/sage/locals/localgroups.html).
   
   If your local group is not listed, or you would like help forming a
   local group, please contact Gale Berkowitz (gale@usenix.org), the
   Usenix Deputy Executive Director.
   
Publications
   
   Progress is being made on two additions to the SAGE Short Topics in
   System Administration series: A System Administrator's Guide to
   Auditing and The Role of Postmaster.
   
   We are working on an update to the SAGE Job Descriptions for System
   Administrators booklet. If you have any comments on the Job
   Descriptions booklet, or would like to help, please send email to
   parter@usenix.org.
   
   Bill LeFebvre is the series editor. Contact Bill at wnl@usenix.org to
   suggest topics or volunteer to author or review booklets. Contact
   Bruce Alan Wynn (wynn@usenix.org) with questions, comments or ideas
   about SAGE publications.
   
Sysadmin Education
   
   SAGE will be sponsoring a workshop on Systems Administration Courses
   and the Computer Science Curriculum at the Computing Research
   Association (CRA) semi-annual "Conference at Snowbird" in July
   (http://www.cra.org/Activities/Snowbird00.html). Contact David Parter
   (parter@usenix.org) for more information.
   
   If you have any questions or comments on SAGE's efforts in the
   education area, please contact Hal Miller (halm@usenix.org) or David
   Parter (parter@usenix.org).
   
Foundations of Systems Administration Summit Meeting
   
   The SAGE executive committee approved preliminary plans for a
   "summit" meeting for key people and opinions from the Taxonomy,
   Education, Certification and Job Descriptions projects for an
   intensive 2-3 day workshop to bring these projects together and come
   away with a common understanding and terminology for systems
   administration. The meeting is tentatively planned for April or May
   2000. Contact Geoff Halprin (geoff@usenix.org) for more information,
   comments, questions, etc.
   
Salary Survey
   
   The SAGE Salary survey was completed at the end of December, and over
   2,300 system administrators completed the survey, of which 55% were
   SAGE/USENIX members, and 82% resided in the United States. Analysis
   of the survey results and identification of areas for future survey
   improvements are now underway. Peg Schafer (peg@usenix.org) is
   leading the salary survey effort.
   
Mailing Lists
   
   The SAGE executive committee is presently reviewing the policies
   relating to the mailing lists we operate, in an effort to continue to
   provide the best value to members, and maintain a high
   signal-to-noise ratio. To this end, a code-of-conduct and FAQ are
   being developed and the mailing list software will be tuned, to try
   to ensure that all members receive the maximum value (maximum
   information with minimum disruption) from this resource.
   
   In the interim, please remember that mailing list Netiquette is based
   on a simple principle: 
			Be considerate of others
   
   Please consider whether your replies would be better sent directly to
   the original poster, rather than the list.
   
   Geoff Halprin (geoff@usenix.org) is drafting the code-of-conduct and
   FAQ, and welcomes your input.
   
Conferences

   USENIX Annual Technical Conference   
   
      The program for the USENIX Annual Technical Conference is now on
      the web at http://www.usenix.org/events/usenix2000/.
   
   LISA-NT

      LISA-NT 2000 is July 30 - August 2. The preliminary program will
      be on the web in April. For more information, please see
      http://www.usenix.org/events/lisa-nt2000/.
   
   LISA 2000
   
      The Call for Participation for LISA 2000 has been posted on the
      web (http://www.usenix.org/events/lisa2000/).
      
      In addition to the traditional Refereed Papers and Invited Talks
      tracks, LISA 2000 will include a new Symposium track, focusing on
      two very specialized topics: Network Administration and
      Security. This new symposium track will highlight the trends,
      solutions, and breakthroughs in networking, security, and
      intrusion detection.
      
      Again this year, limited-attendance workshops will be offered
      (concurrently with the tutorial program). SAGE members are
      encouraged to submit workshop proposals.
      


From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 30 16:40:35 2000
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Subject: e-commerce conference, LA, april 6th
To: SAGE-Members@usenix.org
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:40:00 -0800 (PST)
Cc: sage-announce@usenix.org
From: phil@bolthole.com (Philip Brown)
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Hope people dont mind me doing these monthly announces. Just trying to
build membership of this relatively new users' group. I think this
presentation might have more people interested :-)

This is a free meeting.


                              UUASC-LA
        Unix Users Association of Southern California -- Los Angeles
                       April 2000 Meeting

             -----------------------------------------------
                              E-commerce!
             -----------------------------------------------
                    Thursday, April 6th, 7-9:30 pm
                            Merisel, Inc
                   200 Continental Blvd, El Segundo
             -----------------------------------------------



Topic:

Peter Benjamin will be giving a presentation about the general challenges
of setting up an E-commerce site. He will be joined by panel members who
will discuss specific issues they encountered setting up their site.

Current panel members:

     Toby Rider - credit card/payment verification

     Alexys Flores - real-time database issues with e-commerce sites

We welcome more panel members!

If you have a web site that does commercial transactions, and you are 
willing to share your experience with a 10-minute talk, please contact us.


Location:


Cary Conference Room on first floor
Merisel, Inc (the UNMARKED five-story building on the corner)
200 Continental Blvd  (2101 El Segundo Blvd)
El Segundo, California

(This is about 2 miles south of LAX airport)


Directions:

Coming from the EAST --
Basically, you can take the 105 Freeway to Nash Street. Take Nash SOUTH, 
away from the airport for about five long blocks, and turn right on El 
Segundo Blvd. Take the first right, which is Continental Blvd. and the big 
ugly five-story building on that corner is where we will be meeting.

Directions from other places are similar.

Coming from the 405 Freeway -
Exit on El Segundo, and head west.  It is about half a mile, just past the 
overhead light rail track.

Coming from Sepulveda Blvd, a.k.a. Highway 1 -
Go east on El Segundo, which is the big traffic lights where the huge white 
"Pacific Corporate Towers" are located. Continental is then the first left, 
and Merisel is the first driveway on the right.

Once again, go into the five-story, ugly, UNMARKED building on the corner, 
not the one actually labeled Merisel that is next to it. The door is on the 
east side, and has 2101 over it.

There should be lots of "visitor" slots you can grab in the parking lots.

       --------------------------------------------------

UUASC is for all persons using UNIX either personally or professionally, or 
interested in learning more about UNIX. We recognize all varieties of UNIX, 
including (without prejudice) SCO, Linux, SVr4, Solaris, AIX, HP/UX, and 
BSD. This is a good place to meet others with similar interests and broaden 
your skills and knowledge.

There are two UUASC chapters serving Los Angeles and Orange Counties.
Meeting locations for each chapter are detailed at our web site,
www.uuasc.org.  Please visit our web site.

There are no dues or other membership requirements. More than 100 persons 
receive our monthly email newsletter. Meeting attendance varies to as high 
as 40. Volunteers manage the club and more volunteers are always needed.

Los Angeles County Chapter meetings are held the first Thursday of each 
month from 7 to 9 pm. Generally, meetings include a technical presentation 
on a hardware or software topic of current interest to the UNIX community 
and a round-table discussion of current topics of interest to the group. 
UUASC-LA needs future topic suggestions (and volunteers)!!



From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 31 12:33:16 2000
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From: "Richard C. Dempsey" <dempsey@kodak.com>
Subject: (?) RADIUS or TACACS+ PAM modules
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I am looking for a Solaris PAM (Pluggable Authentication Module) that
supports either the RADIUS or TACACS+ protocols.  That is, the routines
in the sharable object library would communicate with a server to
obtain authentication status.

In our particular case, the particular application is to talk to an ACE
server which provides SecurID authentication services.

The goal here is to replace the shadow file.  We have to maintain the
shadow file on many servers, and would prefer to maintain it centrally.
There is a mechanism using a program called sdshell which talks to the
server for authentication, and which then exec's your real shell (sh,
csh, ksh, bash, tcsh, ...).  The problem with this is that it requires
local authentication by login before sdshell is started.  If we could
use a PAM library, then we could forget about the shadow file almost
entirely.  We'd only need to make sure there was a root password for
bad network days.

I will summarize any responses.

Thanks for your help,
Rich

Richard C. Dempsey                 email: dempsey@kodak.com
Public Online Services             pager: 716-975-3539
11th Floor, Bldg 83, RL            phone: 716-477-3457
Eastman Kodak Company              fax:   716-722-3885
Rochester, NY 14650-2203


From sage-members-owner  Sun Apr  2 12:19:53 2000
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Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:19:39 -0400
From: Jack Cate <jack@edgar.edmunds.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Domain Re-Write with Sendmail
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All -

	I'm trying to accomplish the following using sendmail:

* Forward all mail to to user@DOMAIN to user@DOMAIN2 on a group basis, for say 100 users. 
I've ruled out using .forward's and procmail.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

-Jack


From sage-members-owner  Mon Apr  3 06:17:04 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:16:37 -0300 (EST)
From: Antonio Figueiredo <antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br>
To: Jack Cate <jack@edgar.edmunds.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Domain Re-Write with Sendmail
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On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Jack Cate wrote:

> All -
> 
> 	I'm trying to accomplish the following using sendmail:
> 
> * Forward all mail to to user@DOMAIN to user@DOMAIN2 on a group basis, for say 100 users. 
> I've ruled out using .forward's and procmail.
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -Jack
> 

What about /etc/aliases (or in the NIS map)?

--antonio

------------------
Antonio Figueiredo                          antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br
School of Electrical and Computer Engineering
State University of Campinas - Campinas, SP BRAZIL     +55 19 788-3823
----------------------------------------------------------------------
            Visit  http://www.revista.unicamp.br/navegacao/index9.html




From sage-members-owner  Mon Apr  3 07:52:16 2000
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To: Antonio Figueiredo <antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br>
Cc: Jack Cate <jack@edgar.edmunds.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Domain Re-Write with Sendmail 
In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:16:37 -0300.
	<Pine.GSO.4.21.0004031014240.13229-100000@gorda.dca.fee.unicamp.br> 
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 07:51:36 -0700
From: John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org>
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	     It is possible to write a sendmail rule set that
	     will do this.

	     If you define a class X
	     And then you ask if user is in X, then
	     you can rewrite 

	     X@domain to X@domain2 for all of the members of the
	     group X.

	     So you would have a line that was like:

	     FX /etc/sendmail.user.list.to.rewrite
	     
	     And then you would put into the file 
	     /etc/sendmail.users.list.to rewrite all
	     of the users you want to move.

	     Then later on in the file, say near the
	     end of rule set #3, you would put a line 
	     something like:


	     R < $=X@DOMAIN >                < $2@DOMAIN@ > 

	     This comes close to what you want.

	     I can't write sendmail off the top of my head
	     without thinking about it, so I am sure there
	     is some kind of problem with this.

	     But the general idea is right.

	     If you look in your sendmail config, you will
	     see lines line this already.



	     

Antonio Figueiredo <antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br> writes:

 % On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Jack Cate wrote:
 % 
 % > All -
 % > 
 % > 	I'm trying to accomplish the following using sendmail:
 % > 
 % > * Forward all mail to to user@DOMAIN to user@DOMAIN2 on a group basis, for say 100 users. 
 % > I've ruled out using .forward's and procmail.
 % > 
 % > Any ideas?
 % > 
 % > Thanks!
 % > 
 % > -Jack
 % > 
 % 
 % What about /etc/aliases (or in the NIS map)?
 % 
 % --antonio
 % 
 % ------------------
 % Antonio Figueiredo                          antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br
 % School of Electrical and Computer Engineering
 % State University of Campinas - Campinas, SP BRAZIL     +55 19 788-3823
 % ----------------------------------------------------------------------
 %             Visit  http://www.revista.unicamp.br/navegacao/index9.html
 % 

-----
John Sechrest          .         Helping people use
CEO PEAK -              .           computers and the Internet
Public Electronic         .            more effectively
Access to Knowledge,Inc       .                      
1600 SW Western, Suite 180       .            Internet: sechrest@peak.org
Corvallis Oregon 97333               .                  (541) 754-7325
                                            . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest


From sage-members-owner  Mon Apr  3 08:50:02 2000
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From: "Wazir, Deborah" <deborah.wazir@eds.com>
To: "'SAGE Members'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Trouble with upgrading Solaris 2.6 to 2.7
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 11:49:22 -0400 
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Hi, all -
Hopefully someone out there can shed some light on this.  If I get any
responses or find the answer myself, I'll summarize:

I am upgrading an E-450 from Solaris 2.6 to Solaris 7.  When I boot from
CDROM, after the system id stuff, the install program bypasses the part
about asking if I want to upgrade, and goes ahead and informs me that I'll
be doing an initial install.  This behavior is documented in the Solaris 7
Advanced Installation Guide, p. 43 as Bug ID 1170953, "The upgrade option is
not presented even though there is a version of Solaris software that's
upgradable on the system."  The reasons given for this condition do not
apply to my machine.  I've tried searching sunsolve and haven't found
anything yet, I've checked the sunmanagers archives with no luck.  I'm in
the process of re-subscribing to sunmanagers so I can post there.

I'd appreciate any insight.

Thanks -

Deborah Wazir
Electronic Data Systems
248.265.0071
pager 248.873.1844 


From sage-members-owner  Mon Apr  3 10:09:10 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:09:24 -0700
To: John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org>,
	Antonio Figueiredo <antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br>
From: "Derek J. Balling" <dredd@megacity.org>
Subject: Re: Domain Re-Write with Sendmail 
Cc: Jack Cate <jack@edgar.edmunds.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <200004031451.HAA14455@spock.peak.org>
References: <Your message of Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:16:37 -0300.
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I think it's either virtusertable or domaintable that will do exactly what 
you're looking for, such that you do something like:

(.*)@domain.com         $1@domain2.com

and (smoke and mirrors, black box stuff) the change happens.



At 07:51 AM 4/3/00 -0700, John Sechrest wrote:

>              It is possible to write a sendmail rule set that
>              will do this.
>
>              If you define a class X
>              And then you ask if user is in X, then
>              you can rewrite
>
>              X@domain to X@domain2 for all of the members of the
>              group X.
>
>              So you would have a line that was like:
>
>              FX /etc/sendmail.user.list.to.rewrite
>
>              And then you would put into the file
>              /etc/sendmail.users.list.to rewrite all
>              of the users you want to move.
>
>              Then later on in the file, say near the
>              end of rule set #3, you would put a line
>              something like:
>
>
>              R < $=X@DOMAIN >                < $2@DOMAIN@ >
>
>              This comes close to what you want.
>
>              I can't write sendmail off the top of my head
>              without thinking about it, so I am sure there
>              is some kind of problem with this.
>
>              But the general idea is right.
>
>              If you look in your sendmail config, you will
>              see lines line this already.
>
>
>
>
>
>Antonio Figueiredo <antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br> writes:
>
>  % On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Jack Cate wrote:
>  %
>  % > All -
>  % >
>  % >    I'm trying to accomplish the following using sendmail:
>  % >
>  % > * Forward all mail to to user@DOMAIN to user@DOMAIN2 on a group 
> basis, for say 100 users.
>  % > I've ruled out using .forward's and procmail.
>  % >
>  % > Any ideas?
>  % >
>  % > Thanks!
>  % >
>  % > -Jack
>  % >
>  %
>  % What about /etc/aliases (or in the NIS map)?
>  %
>  % --antonio
>  %
>  % ------------------
>  % Antonio Figueiredo                          antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br
>  % School of Electrical and Computer Engineering
>  % State University of Campinas - Campinas, SP BRAZIL     +55 19 788-3823
>  % ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  %             Visit  http://www.revista.unicamp.br/navegacao/index9.html
>  %
>
>-----
>John Sechrest          .         Helping people use
>CEO PEAK -              .           computers and the Internet
>Public Electronic         .            more effectively
>Access to Knowledge,Inc       .
>1600 SW Western, Suite 180       .            Internet: sechrest@peak.org
>Corvallis Oregon 97333               .                  (541) 754-7325
>                                             . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest



From sage-members-owner  Mon Apr  3 11:44:11 2000
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To: "Derek J. Balling" <dredd@megacity.org>
CC: John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org>,
	Antonio Figueiredo <antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br>,
	Jack Cate <jack@edgar.edmunds.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Domain Re-Write with Sendmail
References: <Your message of Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:16:37 -0300.
	<Pine.GSO.4.21.0004031014240.13229-100000@gorda.dca.fee.unicamp.br>
	<4.3.1.2.20000403100813.00b64a00@mail.megacity.org>
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It's called the mailertable feature. Check out the FAQ at
www.sendmail.org/faq

"Derek J. Balling" wrote:
> 
> I think it's either virtusertable or domaintable that will do exactly what
> you're looking for, such that you do something like:
> 
> (.*)@domain.com         $1@domain2.com
> 
> and (smoke and mirrors, black box stuff) the change happens.
> 
> At 07:51 AM 4/3/00 -0700, John Sechrest wrote:
> 
> >              It is possible to write a sendmail rule set that
> >              will do this.
> >
> >              If you define a class X
> >              And then you ask if user is in X, then
> >              you can rewrite
> >
> >              X@domain to X@domain2 for all of the members of the
> >              group X.
> >
> >              So you would have a line that was like:
> >
> >              FX /etc/sendmail.user.list.to.rewrite
> >
> >              And then you would put into the file
> >              /etc/sendmail.users.list.to rewrite all
> >              of the users you want to move.
> >
> >              Then later on in the file, say near the
> >              end of rule set #3, you would put a line
> >              something like:
> >
> >
> >              R < $=X@DOMAIN >                < $2@DOMAIN@ >
> >
> >              This comes close to what you want.
> >
> >              I can't write sendmail off the top of my head
> >              without thinking about it, so I am sure there
> >              is some kind of problem with this.
> >
> >              But the general idea is right.
> >
> >              If you look in your sendmail config, you will
> >              see lines line this already.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Antonio Figueiredo <antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br> writes:
> >
> >  % On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Jack Cate wrote:
> >  %
> >  % > All -
> >  % >
> >  % >    I'm trying to accomplish the following using sendmail:
> >  % >
> >  % > * Forward all mail to to user@DOMAIN to user@DOMAIN2 on a group
> > basis, for say 100 users.
> >  % > I've ruled out using .forward's and procmail.
> >  % >
> >  % > Any ideas?
> >  % >
> >  % > Thanks!
> >  % >
> >  % > -Jack
> >  % >
> >  %
> >  % What about /etc/aliases (or in the NIS map)?
> >  %
> >  % --antonio
> >  %
> >  % ------------------
> >  % Antonio Figueiredo                          antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br
> >  % School of Electrical and Computer Engineering
> >  % State University of Campinas - Campinas, SP BRAZIL     +55 19 788-3823
> >  % ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  %             Visit  http://www.revista.unicamp.br/navegacao/index9.html
> >  %
> >
> >-----
> >John Sechrest          .         Helping people use
> >CEO PEAK -              .           computers and the Internet
> >Public Electronic         .            more effectively
> >Access to Knowledge,Inc       .
> >1600 SW Western, Suite 180       .            Internet: sechrest@peak.org
> >Corvallis Oregon 97333               .                  (541) 754-7325
> >                                             . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest


From sage-members-owner  Mon Apr  3 15:55:49 2000
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From: John LLOYD <jal@mda.ca>
To: bryer@sfu.ca
Cc: SAGE-Members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Backup recommendations sought 
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:55:29 -0700 
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Jeff,

We just (last year) bought a Veritas-NetBackup system to replace an old
Networker system.  We have about 3TB to do and wanted to automate this as
much as possible.  So, we put in a SUN E450 with L11000 robotics (thats
4x400MHz and 320 tape slots of DLT7000 with 6 drives).  Yes this was
expensive.

But at least it works.  Networker didn't; it's internal database corrupted
regularly and restarts took hours as it "rebuilt" it's database.  We had one
operator changing tapes continuously on the old box (an under-power Alpha
with only a 40-slot robot) and the result was we didn't back up even half of
what we should have.

Our network is Bay/Nortel 5000-series chassis switches, ATM interconnects.
This supports an OC12 into our backup server (622Mbits/second).  We
regularly do 400 to 600GB of work each night (mixed fulls and incrementals)
with lots of time left over.  Without a good set of network pipes your
backups won't be effective.  Our current problem is not enough tape slots.

We don't use filers; 600 desktops with 4 to 14GB disks each is enough disk.
We also have a few UNIX boxes with 5 to 250GB each.  For the most part big
disk farms get closely reviewed; data that is regeneratable by users is not
backed up.

The upside of NetBackup:  reliability, ease of scheduling, database
functionality (it works on MS-SQL-Server, MS-Exchange, and supposedly on
Oracle and others); supports offsite volume management (an extra cost
option); scales well.

The downside:  some bugs (NT/windows95 file exclusion lists are definable,
and work, but not editable); inconsistant error reporting on absent clients
(like laptops); we recently found it doesn't make a usable backup of a
Solaris system disk hence we have to do separate dumps of the o.s.; no
support for older releases of: IRIX, OSF/1 (Digital UNIX), SCO, etc.  But
cron jobs and ordinary dumps to disk work for them.

There is a learning curve too; the scheduler is easy to use but a little
hard to understand; the system was so efficient it broke older parts of our
network (old FDDI-to-ATM stuff; we moved clients to the Bay stuff and it
works fine now).

And, the cost.  But, what's your data worth?







Cheers

John

-------------------------------------------
John Lloyd
Computing Services
MacDonald Dettwiler and Associates
13800 Commerce Parkway
Richmond, B.C.  V6V 2J3
Canada
voice (604)  231-2303   fax (604) 278-3786
-------------------------------------------


From sage-members-owner  Mon Apr  3 17:03:38 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 20:03:35 -0400
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: "Mario F. Toro" <Mario.Toro@devetel.cl>
Subject: rsh or expect to VMS machine ...
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<html><div>Hello,</div>
<br>
<div>&nbsp; I try to execute a program in a VMS machine from Unix. But
always the VMS said :</div>
<br>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; %SET-W-NOTSET, error modifying
TNA101:-SET-I-UNKTERM, unknown terminal type</div>
<br>
<div>&nbsp; Always the same message,</div>
<br>
<div>&nbsp; I try with remote shell, expect and perl Net::Telnet Module
....</div>
<br>
<div>&nbsp; Any idea ... ?</div>
<div>&nbsp; </div>
<div>Thanks in advance ....</div>
<br>

<br>
<font color="#000080"><b>______________________________<br>
</b>Mario F. Toro<br>
Gerente Desarrollo<br>
E-Mail : Mario.Toro@DeveTel.cl<br>
</font><a href="http://www.devetel.cl/" eudora="autourl">Http://www.DeveTel.cl<br>
</a><font color="#000080"><b>DeveTel</font></b></html>



From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  4 03:58:56 2000
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Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 06:59:00 -0400
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: "Mario F. Toro" <Mario.Toro@devetel.cl>
Subject: rsh or expect to VMS machine ...
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Hello,

   I try to execute a program in a VMS machine from Unix. But always the 
VMS said :

       %SET-W-NOTSET, error modifying TNA101:-SET-I-UNKTERM, unknown 
terminal type

   Always the same message,

   I try with remote shell, expect and perl Net::Telnet Module ....

   Any idea ... ?

Thanks in advance ....

______________________________
Mario F. Toro
Gerente Desarrollo
E-Mail : Mario.Toro@DeveTel.cl
Http://www.DeveTel.cl
DeveTel



From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  4 07:29:49 2000
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From: Theo Van Dinter <felicity@kluge.net>
To: "Mario F. Toro" <Mario.Toro@devetel.cl>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: rsh or expect to VMS machine ...
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Referen