From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan  6 15:55:16 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20872
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:55:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from storm.nando.net (storm.nando.net [152.52.2.139])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20860
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:55:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from majordomo@localhost)
	by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA00588
	for ncsa-announce-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:06:18 -0500 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: storm.nando.net: majordomo set sender to
	owner-ncsa-announce@nando.net using -f
Received: from lamb.sas.com (root@lamb.sas.com [192.35.83.8])
	by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA00581
	for <ncsa-announce@nando.net>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:06:13 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mozart (mozart.unx.sas.com [192.58.184.8])
	by lamb.sas.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA16748
	for <ncsa-announce@nando.net>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:03:07 -0500 (EST)
Received: from ntgate01.pc.sas.com by mozart (5.65c/SAS/Domains/5-6-90)
	id AA04866; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:03:06 -0500
Received: by ntgate01.pc.sas.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
	id <Y8A9X9HQ>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:03:06 -0500
Message-Id: <FDAEB36E0478D211842100A0C9AB18CA034CEE@ntmail06.pc.sas.com>
From: Heather Flanagan <heflan@wnt.sas.com>
To: "'ncsa-announce@nando.net'" <ncsa-announce@nando.net>
Cc: "'triangle.talks@usenet.sas.com'" <triangle.talks@usenet.sas.com>
Subject: NC*SA meeting, Monday, Jan. 11, 1999 - the NC Networking Initiati ve
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:03:00 -0500 
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


The next meeting of the North Carolina System Administrators
organization (NC*SA) will be Monday, January 11, 1999, at 6pm.  Details
about the meeting and directions are provided in this note.  We hope
to see you there! 

                    NC*SA General Meeting
               6:00 p.m., Monday, January 11, 1999
                     Dreyfus Laboratory
                 Research Triangle Institute
                  Research Triangle Park, NC
                     (directions below)

           The North Carolina Networking Initiative:
                What It Is, Where We're Going

               
            --------------------------------------

Bio:
John C. Collins is the Director for Strategic Technology Planning with
Duke University Office of Information Technology and a senior
technical staff member of North Carolina Network Initiative (NCNI).  
He is a board member of the North Carolina Research and Education
Network (NC-REN) advisory committee.  Mr. Collins received his BSEE
from La Salle University.  Before joining Duke and NCNI, John was the
Associate Director for Network Operations at Rutgers University for
the RUNet 2000 program.  Mr. Collins was also one of the initial staff
members involved in the development and assembly of Maui High
Performance Computing Center (MHPCC), where he was responsible for all
networking activities on contract to the University of New Mexico
assigned to MHPCC.  John has over 22 years of networking experience
covering a broad spectrum of DOD, University and Industry
organizations in both LAN and WAN environments.  Currently, his main
interest is in advanced research activities associated with Internet 2
and NGI.

Abstract:
The North Carolina Networking Initiative (NCNI), is a next-generation
information technology, networking and Internet program with a hybrid
focus. One focus is on the research, applications development and
infrastructure of the next-generation technologies, and the other
focus is on early deployment of these technologies and capabilities to
serve the production needs of education, business and government. One
of the first activities was to establish the infrastructure for the
North Carolina GigaPop. The intent from the outset has been to address
both academic and business interests with the result that NCNI
maintains a healthy tension between advanced research opportunities
and early deployment of production services and applications. One of
the goals is to exploit emerging technologies and applications to the
competitive advantage of the universities and businesses participating
in NCNI. Please come with your questions.

==============================

Other NC*SA administrivia:
For next month, we have lined up Paul Jones to talk about Web Privacy,
and on schedule for March, we have Ernest Bowman-Cisneros (Duke), to discuss
Network Flight Recorder.

Mark your calendars!

============================== 
 
Our meetings are free and open to anyone with an interest in the topic
of the evening.  We will be providing food and drink for the evening.
If you have any questions please contact: 

  Heather Flanagan 
  SAS Institute Inc. 
  SAS Campus Drive 
  Cary, NC  27513  
  (919) 677-8000 x5522
  heflan@unx.sas.com

==============================

For information about the NC System Administrators group, contact our
Majordomo mailing list server.  The "ncsa-discussion" mailing list has
been created to facilitate discussions of interest to system
administrators from the state of North Carolina.

Simply send email to "majordomo@nando.net":

        mail majordomo@nando.net
        Subject:

        subscribe ncsa-discussion

After subscribing, Majordomo will send you the help file and info file
for our mailing list.  These files contain instructions for retrieving
other files available to the NCSA organization (e.g.  the presentation
material from past technical programs are available for retrieval via
Majordomo!!) 

To unsubscribe from this meeting announcement list, send a message to the 
same address, with the following line in the body: 

        unsubscribe ncsa-announce

==============================

Directions to Research Triangle Institute
(see also:  http://www.rti.org/images/campus.gif)

 From I-40 west of RTP (e.g. Chapel Hill):

  Get onto I-40 heading east.  Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham
  Freeway - North (towards Durham).  Stay in right lane.  Shift right as
  soon as possible after merging with traffic coming off I-40 westbound.

  Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road).  At top of exit,
  turn to the left.  (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you
  are going the wrong direction.)  After turning left onto Cornwallis,
  shift immediately to the right lane.  Take the second right onto East
  Institute Drive.  Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. 
  Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right.  Use the
  parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance.

 From I-40 east of RTP (e.g. Raleigh):

  Get onto I-40 heading west.  Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham
  Freeway - North (towards Durham).  Shift to rightmost lane as soon as
  possible Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road).  At top
  of exit, turn to the left.  (If you turn right and cross over the
  bridge, you are going the wrong direction.)  After turning left onto
  Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane.  Take the second
  right onto East Institute Drive.  Take the second right off of East
  Institute Drive.  Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on
  your right.  Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the
  main entrance.

 From north of RTP (e.g. Durham):

  Get onto NC-147 - Durham Freeway - south.  Exit at the Cornwallis Road
  exit.  At the top of the exit, turn left to cross over the bridge. 
  After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right
  lane.  Take the second right onto East Institute Drive.  Take the
  second right off of East Institute Drive.  Dreyfus Laboratory will be
  the first building on your right.  Use the parking lot in front of the
  Lab and enter at the main entrance.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Heather Flanagan			Associate Systems Programmer
Information Systems Consulting		SAS Institute, Inc.
(919)677-8000 x5522			heflan@unx.sas.com



From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan  8 09:07:13 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA21596
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:07:13 -0800 (PST)
Received: from netcom17.netcom.com (milburn@netcom17.netcom.com
	[192.100.81.130]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA21579
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:07:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (milburn@localhost)
	by netcom17.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) with SMTP id
	JAA22519
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:04:31 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:04:30 -0800 (PST)
From: "Shane B. Milburn" <milburn@netcom.com>
X-Sender: milburn@netcom17
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: MetaStor Network Attached opinions?
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.990108085056.21590A-100000@netcom17>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


I'm getting ready to buy a 500GB network attached disk
array. I was leaning toward the MetaStor box because I
have 3 locally attached Symbios logic arrays and I really
like them a lot. But after checking out the products from
MetaStor and NetApps during LISA I'm not sure if the MetaStor
machine will give me the performance/reliability I'm looking
for.

Anyone got any opinions (good/bad) about the MetaStor box?

How about the NetApp box?

thanks,
-shane

Shane B. Milburn                           Email: milburn@netcom.com
Systems Administrator                      Pager: 800.946.4646 #1451080
PGP Fingerprint =  BE E1 D0 21 ED 83 83 40  59 50 1D 6D 0A A8 F1 2A



From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan  8 10:56:24 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA25683
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:56:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from tsdis02.nascom.nasa.gov (tsdis02.nascom.nasa.gov
	[198.118.195.36]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA25674
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:56:18 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (denis@localhost) by tsdis02.nascom.nasa.gov
	(980427.SGI.8.8.8/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id NAA03476;
	Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:53:38 -0500 (EST)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:53:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Gerasimov <denis@tsdis02.nascom.nasa.gov>
X-Sender: denis@tsdis02.nascom.nasa.gov
To: "Shane B. Milburn" <milburn@netcom.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: MetaStor Network Attached opinions?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.990108085056.21590A-100000@netcom17>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990108134925.17023F-100000@tsdis02.nascom.nasa.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Shane B. Milburn wrote:
> How about the NetApp box?

We have 3 NetApp boxes and they are nice. Once you configure them the only
thing needed is replacing disks once in a while and its a snap. 
Installing them was a different story. The procedure is trivial, but they
kept sending us wrong parts (trays with mixture of 110 and 220V power
supplies, bad simms, wrong part ## etc. - lasted months). If you like
bitching the (whatever they have for) brains out of sales people - this
thing will be a lot of fun.
We currently have 2.5 Tb on NetApps.

Dennis Gerasimov                                 office  301-614-5070
Sr. Systems Administrator,                       denis@tsdis.gsfc.nasa.gov
TSDIS/TRMM                       personal e-mail denis@datawire.com
NASA/GSFC  Code 902                       http://www.datawire.com/~denis




From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan  8 11:06:29 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA26091
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:06:29 -0800 (PST)
Received: from heimdall.sdrc.com (heimdall.sdrc.com [146.122.132.195])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA26078
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:06:18 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (ratatosk.sdrc.com [146.122.131.194])
	by heimdall.sdrc.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA26049;
	Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:03:34 -0500 (EST)
Received: from hpcor3.sdrc.com (crjoslin@hpcor3.sdrc.com [146.122.7.86])
	by mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA07662;
	Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:03:33 -0500 (EST)
Received: by hpcor3.sdrc.com id OAA05962; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:03:34 -0500 (EST)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:03:34 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199901081903.OAA05962@hpcor3.sdrc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: paul.joslin@weirdness.com (Paul R. Joslin)
To: milburn@netcom.com
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: MetaStor Network Attached opinions?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.990108085056.21590A-100000@netcom17>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.990108085056.21590A-100000@netcom17>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:04:30 -0800 (PST), "Shane B. Milburn"
<milburn@netcom.com> said:

Shane> I'm getting ready to buy a 500GB network attached disk
Shane> array. I was leaning toward the MetaStor box because I have
Shane> 3 locally attached Symbios logic arrays and I really like
Shane> them a lot. But after checking out the products from
Shane> MetaStor and NetApps during LISA I'm not sure if the
Shane> MetaStor machine will give me the performance/reliability
Shane> I'm looking for.

Shane> Anyone got any opinions (good/bad) about the MetaStor box?

Shane> How about the NetApp box?

I'd advise you to look at the size of your working set, especially
with an "enterprise" class box.  My concern with these boxes is
the amount of cache they support.  You hear claims of 1 TB or 500
GB, then look at the fine print and see that the box maxes out at
256 MB of cache.  If cache is tight, you have to look at spindles
& disk speed.  Also, you need to determine how you're going to
back up a 500 GB lump of data.  NetApp recommends NFS mounting it
and doing it over the net.  That works, if you have a backup
window and sufficient {net, server, tape} capacity.

As far as reliability goes, in my experience NetApp > Auspex >
{New HP, New Sun} >> old Sun (1000's).  That said, most of our
problems with Auspex and the newer HP & Sun have been
self-inflicted (misconfiguration or operator error).  You can buy
high RAS from mirroring systems down to hot swap drives for Sun & HP.
I have no experience with the MetaStor.

-- 
Paul R. Joslin                       Nine-tenths of wisdom is being wise in
paul.joslin@weirdness.com            time.
+1 513 576 2012                          -- Theodore Roosevelt


From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan  8 15:59:34 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA07930
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:59:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from artful.grumblesmurf.net (dsl-209-162-215-45.easystreet.com
	[209.162.215.45]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA07879
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:59:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from darrell@localhost)
	by artful.grumblesmurf.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16584;
	Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:55:08 -0800 (PST)
To: paul.joslin@weirdness.com (Paul R. Joslin)
Cc: milburn@netcom.com, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: MetaStor Network Attached opinions?
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.990108085056.21590A-100000@netcom17>
	<199901081903.OAA05962@hpcor3.sdrc.com>
From: Darrell Fuhriman <darrell@grumblesmurf.net>
Date: 08 Jan 1999 15:55:08 -0800
In-Reply-To: paul.joslin@weirdness.com's message of "Fri,
	8 Jan 1999 14:03:34 -0500 (EST)"
Message-ID: <m2ww2x48wz.fsf@artful.grumblesmurf.net>
Lines: 22
X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.44/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

paul.joslin@weirdness.com (Paul R. Joslin) writes:

> the amount of cache they support.  You hear claims of 1 TB or 500
> GB, then look at the fine print and see that the box maxes out at
> 256 MB of cache.  If cache is tight, you have to look at spindles

The only filers netapp makes that will support > 500GB (without
clustering) are the 740 and 760, which take 512M and 1Gb read
cache respectively.  They both take 32M write cache (nvram).

> back up a 500 GB lump of data.  NetApp recommends NFS mounting it
> and doing it over the net.  That works, if you have a backup

But, they do support ndmp, if your backup software does.  (Which
legato still doesn't, *grumble*)

> problems with Auspex and the newer HP & Sun have been

Auspex is history unless they start dropping their prices *a
lot*.  A netapp'll outperform 'em and cost a fraction the price.

Darrell


From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan  8 18:10:58 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA12625
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:10:58 -0800 (PST)
Received: from post6.inre.asu.edu (post6.inre.asu.edu [129.219.110.87])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA12616
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:10:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from general2.asu.edu by asu.edu (PMDF V5.1-12 #24133)
	with ESMTP id <01J6B4P563Z48Y6OT8@asu.edu> for sage-members@usenix.ORG;
	Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:09:08 MST
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by general2.asu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA29951 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 08 Jan 1999 19:08:22 -0700 (MST)
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 19:08:22 -0700 (MST)
From: LuftHans <LuftHans@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: MetaStor Network Attached opinions?
In-reply-to: <m2ww2x48wz.fsf@artful.grumblesmurf.net>
X-Sender: lufthans@general2.asu.edu
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Message-id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990108190411.23500M-100000@general2.asu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Darrell Fuhriman wrote:

> paul.joslin@weirdness.com (Paul R. Joslin) writes:
> 
> > the amount of cache they support.  You hear claims of 1 TB or 500
> > GB, then look at the fine print and see that the box maxes out at
> > 256 MB of cache.  If cache is tight, you have to look at spindles
> 
> The only filers netapp makes that will support > 500GB (without
> clustering) are the 740 and 760, which take 512M and 1Gb read
> cache respectively.  They both take 32M write cache (nvram).
> 
> > back up a 500 GB lump of data.  NetApp recommends NFS mounting it
> > and doing it over the net.  That works, if you have a backup
> 
> But, they do support ndmp, if your backup software does.  (Which
> legato still doesn't, *grumble*)

That's what we're doing with aXXion and a tape robot. Tests have been good so
far, but we haven't actually deployed it yet. NetApp has been very responsive.
Of course, we're still buying :). We've already added capacity and cache twice
as funds came available, this before we even make the unit available.

> > problems with Auspex and the newer HP & Sun have been
> 
> Auspex is history unless they start dropping their prices *a
> lot*.  A netapp'll outperform 'em and cost a fraction the price.

This isn't my gig, but those here who've supported auspex wouldn't even
consider them this time around. We have an older (couple of years) Auspex that
still has probs dropping good drives off the air that it's had since day one
:(.

ciao,

der.hans

> Darrell

# +++++++++++=================================+++++++++++ #
#                   LuftHans@asu.edu                      #
#            http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/              #
#        Magic is science unexplained. - der.hans         #
# ===========+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=========== #



From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  9 09:58:17 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA13928
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:58:17 -0800 (PST)
Received: from wacker. (kanejm.netheaven.com [198.69.29.64])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA13917
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:58:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: from wacker by wacker. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id MAA16358; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:56:15 -0500
Message-ID: <3697983C.51B2@NetHeaven.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 12:56:12 -0500
From: Joseph Kane <kanejm@NetHeaven.com>
Organization: NetHeaven.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Linker barfs
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Dear Sage members

 I am attempting to compile a c program which calls the getch() 
function  which is defined in the /usr/include/curses.h file  as

 extern int  wgetch(WINDOW *)

 When I attempt to make the executable the linker barfs with the
following error message:

Undefined            first referenced
symbol                  in file
wgetch                myprog.o
stdscr                myprog.o

 ld: fatal: Symbol referencing errors. No output written 
*** Error code 1

  But the function "wgetch"  is no where to be found in the header 
files in /usr/include !!!

 What did I do wrong ?????


joe kane
kanejm@netheaven.com


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  9 12:53:56 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA19544
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:53:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: from chmls05.mediaone.net (ne.mediaone.net [24.128.1.70])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19535
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:53:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: from temples.com (ptemples.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.61.16])
	by chmls05.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27854
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:51:04 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <3697C173.D95C21CF@temples.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 15:52:03 -0500
From: Phil Temples <phil@temples.com>
Reply-To: phil@temples.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en]C-MOENE  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: PGP key-signing party?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Dear SAGE members,

I've suggested to our local IT users group that we hold a PGP
key-signing party at our next monthly meeting.  I've never actually been
a part of a key-signing party, and so I am looking for suggestions on
how to structure this critter.  I have given it some thought, and
believe that I know the requirements, but I don't want to overlook
anything.

Comments (direct to me) if you have any, and I'll be glad to summarize
for the list.  Thanks in advance.

Phil

 
-- 
Phil Temples <phil@temples.com>  http://www.temples.com/about.html


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  9 16:38:56 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26593
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 16:38:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: from dhw.vip.best.com (dhw.vip.best.com [204.156.129.101])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA26584
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 16:38:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from david@localhost) by dhw.vip.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02403
	for sage-members@usenix.ORG; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 16:36:24 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 16:36:24 -0800 (PST)
From: David Wolfskill <david@dhw.vip.best.com>
Message-Id: <199901100036.QAA02403@dhw.vip.best.com>
Subject: Re: MetaStor Network Attached opinions?
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

>Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:03:34 -0500 (EST)
>From: paul.joslin@weirdness.com (Paul R. Joslin)

>Also, you need to determine how you're going to
>back up a 500 GB lump of data.  NetApp recommends NFS mounting it
>and doing it over the net.  That works, if you have a backup
>window and sufficient {net, server, tape} capacity.

When I deployed an 80 GB Filer at a former employer (spring, 1995),
getting the backups done was also an issue.

However, providing a "backup window" wasn't too much of a problem (in
and of itself):  we had 2 100Base-TX interfaces on the box; one went
over to the backbone switch; the other was for a private administrivia
net, used for backups only.

Because of the way backups are done on the Filer (make a snapshot, then
back that up), you know the data aren't changing out from under you.
And I was able to do backups during the middle of the day with no one
noticing.

Nowadays, a bit more network bandwidth might be advisable, and different
sites have different requirements, so season to taste; still, providing
a completely separate admin net turned out to be useful for me.

Cheers,
david
-- 
David H. Wolfskill				david@dhw.vip.best.com
As a computing professional, I believe it would be unethical for me to
advise, recommend, or support the use (save possibly for personal
amusement) of any product that is or depends on any Microsoft product.


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  9 17:10:43 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA27564
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:10:43 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA27555
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:10:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: by hustle.rahul.net with UUCP id AA13702
	(5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for sage-members@usenix.org);
	Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:08:12 -0800
Received: from canopus.starshine.org (canopus.starshine.org [192.168.64.3])
	by antares.starshine.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA13382;
	Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:03:10 -0800
Received: from canopus.starshine.org (jimd@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by canopus.starshine.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04541;
	Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:03:09 -0800
Message-Id: <199901100103.RAA04541@canopus.starshine.org>
To: Joseph Kane <kanejm@NetHeaven.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
X-Mailer: MH 8.6.3
Subject: Re: Linker barfs 
In-Reply-To: <3697983C.51B2@NetHeaven.com> 
	Message Apparently From Joseph Kane <kanejm@NetHeaven.com> 
	Dated Sat, 09 Jan 1999 12:56:12 EST.
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:03:09 -0800
From: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

 
> Dear Sage members
 
>  I am attempting to compile a c program which calls the getch() 
> function  which is defined in the /usr/include/curses.h file  as
 
>  extern int  wgetch(WINDOW *)
 
>  When I attempt to make the executable the linker barfs with the
> following error message:
 
> Undefined            first referenced
> symbol                  in file
> wgetch                myprog.o
> stdscr                myprog.o
 
>  ld: fatal: Symbol referencing errors. No output written 
> *** Error code 1

>   But the function "wgetch"  is no where to be found in the header 
> files in /usr/include !!!
 
>  What did I do wrong ?????

	This is not a programming help list.  Programming
	curses programs is only marginally related to systems
	administration. (comp.unix.question or comp.lang.c 
	might be better venues).

	That said it sounds like you aren't real clear on your
	question.  

	First you say that wgetch() is defined in
	your curses.h file under /usr/include, then you say that
	it's "no where to be found." 

	Do you mean that wgetch() is SUPPOSED to be found in
	/usr/include/curses.h?  Do you have a /usr/include/curses.h?
	Are you using curses or ncurses?  What doesn't your actual
	#include directive look like?  What sort of command are you
	attempting to use to perform the compilation?  If you're
	using a make file --- include it (or a relevant portion of
	it).

	Also you say that the linker barfs.  That implies that 
	the compiler *doesn't*.  Also the fact that the .o files
	are being generated suggests that this is the case.  So,
	that suggests that the compiler *is* finding a function
	prototype for wgetch(), and is compiling that into a 
	set of library symbols which it is putting into the .o
	files.  The linker isn't finding the code associated with
	those symbols (normally "archived" into "libraries" ---
	using the 'ar' command to generate show .a files, and also
	commonly found in our "shared object" files or .so files
	on modern versions of Unix).

	That would suggest that you have to add the -lcurses or
	-lncurses directives to your ld command.

	In any event this seems off-topic for this list.  I'd 
	suggest taking it to a programming support mailing list
	or newsgroup --- preferably one that is dedicated to
	your platform.

	When asking questions of this sort in any public forum
	it's best to include the version and architecture of your
	OS, the compiler, and the shortest sample of code that
	you can cull out of your project that exhibits the problem.
	
> joe kane
> kanejm@netheaven.com

--
Jim Dennis  (800) 938-4078		consulting@starshine.org
Proprietor, Starshine Technical Services:  http://www.starshine.org


From sage-members-owner  Sat Jan  9 17:54:36 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28992
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:54:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from peak.org (root@PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28983
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:54:31 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (sechrest@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peak.org
	(8.8.5/8.6.7) with ESMTP id RAA18760 for
	<sage-members@usenix.org>; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:52:05 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199901100152.RAA18760@peak.org>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Favor - Sysadm Class Help
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:52:05 -0800
From: John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


	Hello everyone,

	I have a favor to ask of you.

	I am teaching a unix system administration class this
	term. I have 45 students in the class.
	
	As a part of the class, I have an Ask-A-Sysadm tool
	set up. It distributes questions among people.
	
	I have over 40 members of this list who have signed up
	to be "experts".
	
	But in addition, my students sign up to be "experts"
	for the users.
	
	IE, I have 3 levels of questions
	
		Asker		-----> 	Askee
		user		----->	sysadm student
		sysadm student	-----> 	Professional
		Professional	----->	Professional


	So, my students should be signed up to answer "user" 
	questions. My original goal was to get some K12 teachers
	who have been using Linux in K12 to ask questions of my
	students, but that cultivation has not sprouted yet.
	
	So... The favor:
	
	Could you please go to http://www.peak.org/dl/sysadm/ask-a-sysadm
	
	And ask a "user level" question of my students?
	
	They are just starting. And they don't know anything. They
	are using linux as the basis of the class.
	
	If they got some questions from people other than me,
	I think that it would change the tenor of the ask-a-sysadm
	experience for them.
	
	Hopefully, you have some "common questions" that you get
	asked. Perhaps you could ask those of my students?
	
	If you find the Ask-A-sysadm interesting or useful, I would
	like to hear comments about how it is set up and to know
	if any of you get answers that are meaningful from my students.
	
	Thank you for thinking about this.
	
	



-----
John Sechrest          .         Helping people use
CEO  PEAK -             .           computers and the Internet
Public Electronic         .            more effectively
Access to Knowledge,Inc      .                      
850 SW 15th Street              .            Internet: sechrest@peak.org
Corvallis Oregon 97333               .                  (541) 754-7325
                                            . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest
								   


From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan 10 22:10:48 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA25417
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:10:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA25408
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:10:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: by hustle.rahul.net with UUCP id AA09985
	(5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for sage-members@usenix.org);
	Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:08:17 -0800
Received: from canopus.starshine.org (canopus.starshine.org [192.168.64.3])
	by antares.starshine.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA21752;
	Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:08:36 -0800
Received: from canopus.starshine.org (jimd@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by canopus.starshine.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04988;
	Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:08:34 -0800
Message-Id: <199901110508.VAA04988@canopus.starshine.org>
To: phil@temples.com
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
X-Mailer: MH 8.6.3
Subject: Re: PGP key-signing party? 
In-Reply-To: <3697C173.D95C21CF@temples.com> 
	Message Apparently From Phil Temples <phil@temples.com> 
	Dated Sat, 09 Jan 1999 15:52:03 EST.
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:08:33 -0800
From: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


 
> Dear SAGE members,
 
> I've suggested to our local IT users group that we hold a PGP
> key-signing party at our next monthly meeting.  I've never actually been
> a part of a key-signing party, and so I am looking for suggestions on
> how to structure this critter.  I have given it some thought, and
> believe that I know the requirements, but I don't want to overlook
> anything.
 
> Comments (direct to me) if you have any, and I'll be glad to summarize
> for the list.  Thanks in advance.
 
> Phil

  I recently suggested something similar to a Linux users group
  of which I'm a member.  Here's that messages with some details
  about how I envision it.  I've been to a couple of PGP key signing
  parties --- though I didn't participate:

    

	One idea for an SVLUG/LinuxWorld Event:

		A GNUPG/PGP (GNU Privacy Guard) key signing
		party.

	GPG is pretty close to 1.x now (fully functional on Linux
	so far as I know) and will hopefully be widely adopted
	over the next few months.

	With the number of 'out-of-town' Linux enthusiasts that
	we hope to draw to this event --- including a number
	of bigname core developers, etc --- this would be a 
	rare opportunity to extend the "web of trust" through
	our digital signatures.

	Let me give a bit of background here:

	When you receive a digitally signed message which is 
	purportedly from me you have no direct way of authenticating
	that signature.  You could check my web pages to see if I've
	posted a PGP/GPG "fingerprint" (a two line cryptographic
	checksum of my public key).  But you don't know for sure
	that those are "my" web pages.  Likewise for e-mail
	infobots, finger, etc.

	If you've met me in person, and I gave you my key in 
	person then you can associate "me" (my face and voice)
	with that key.  If you checked my drivers license and/or
	passport when we met you can make a reasonably strong
	(in the legal sense) assertion that associates my 
	name and face  with my key.

	If someone you know (with some degree of "trust" ---
	say you've been meeting them at SVLUG meetings for a 
	couple of years, or they worked with you, or you're married
	to them, or something) introduces you to me; this also
	increases your confidence in who I am.  (In this you
	trust not only the honesty and integrity of the introducer,
	but their competance as well.

	That is the heart of the "web of trust."  We use digital
	signatures to sign public keys to say: "I'm reasonably
	certain that this key belongs to a person that I'm
	reasonably certain goes by this name at this e-mail
	address"  

	If I get a key that's signed by three or four people
	who I know and trust (I trust their competance and 
	don't perceive them as having any mutual self-interest
	in deceiving me) then I can be reasonably certain
	that the key is good (or *was* good at the time that it
	was signed).

	Once I get a (public) key signed by a number of people I can
	send it to a key server.  People can then query the key
	server (generally by e-mail address) to get keys that are
	associated thereby.  They can then make their own judgement
	based on the signatures attached to that key.

	The normal protocol for a keysigning party works something
	like this:

		Each participant creates their key pair 
		(private and public).

		They secure their private key (putting it 
		on a floppy, protecting it with a non-trivial
		passphrase, sequestering it on a "secure" 
		system, or whatever).

		They publish their public key.  That is that they
		make it available on a web page, ftp site, or
		via their .plan (if they maintain an account
		with finger enabled).

		They produce and print a "fingerprint" of their
		public key (and mail that to a "referee"). Then
		they show up in person at the key signing party
		with their key's fingerprint.

		The refereee, or any participant, prints many 
		copies of the list of fingerprints for everyone 
		who plans to attend the keysigning.

		At the party each fingerprint is read aloud ( or
		displayed on an overhead) and "claimed" by someone.
		People who are reasonably certain that they "know"
		that person will initial their copy of that
		fingerprint.

		Later, each of the people who is interested will
		go home, fetch copies those keys that belong to people
		they "trust" (believe that they know) add them
		to their keyrings and sign them.  They'll return the 
		signed keys to their owners.

		The keys that they've added to their keyring(s) will
		accumulate.  That becomes their web of trust.

	Here's where my understanding of the protocol breaks down.
	(Time to confess that I've never used signed PGP keys).  The
	idea is that I want to take the keys that I have, and the
	list of detached signatures to them and bundle them together
	to post them to my keyservers (public or private).  Then
	anyone grabbing the resulting key can look at the list of 
	signatures and assign a degree of confidence to that new
	key based on the number and nature of the people who signed
	it (with keys that *are* already on my key ring).

	If someone has accepted my key on their ring, and I later
	sign the key for a party that was previously unknown to 
	them, than that third party can offer a signed public key to
	the first party.  That first party will see my signature and
	(probably) decide to trust my signature to some degree.
	They will then add the third parties key to one of their 
	rings.  If that third party later signs the key of a fourth
	party --- the first party might not trust it (on that basis)
	but if the fourth party's key was signed by a couple of
	third party key holder (who appeared to have not mutual
	self-interest in deceiving me) I might accept that.

	Another method for authenticating keys is to call the 
	purported owner on the phone (using whatever level of
	phone directory you "trust") and ask them to read their
	key's fingerprint over that.

	Again, key signing and building the web of trust is
	particularly important at this point in the development
	of Linux.  There are a few hundred "world-wide known people" 
	in the community and the recent explosion of Linux' 
	popularity will mean that you will know far fewer of them
	by reputation.  (Also there have already been cases of 
	trojans and forged defamation on mailing lists and 
	newsgroups).  We need to address those concerns.
	

--
Jim Dennis  (800) 938-4078		consulting@starshine.org
Proprietor, Starshine Technical Services:  http://www.starshine.org


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 11 06:18:41 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA12300
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:18:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: from zeus.marada-corp.com (root@dvassar.marada-corp.com
	[209.114.134.171]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA12273
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:18:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (dmarner@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by zeus.marada-corp.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13893
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:16:01 -0500
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:16:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Dan Marner <dmarner@marada-corp.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Teaching System Administration with limited hands-on
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.04.9901110900100.13836-100000@zeus.marada-corp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


I am teaching a course in System Administration as part of a graduate
program in Software Engineering. Since it is part of an SE program, and is
therefore targeted at developers rather than aspiring sys admins, I am
concentrating more on abstract issues such as writing a disaster recovery
plan than on platform-specific details.

That said, there is a lot of interest among my students in getting some
practical experience in the administration of UNIX and NT systems.
Unfortunately, I don't have a lab full of workstations on which I can hand
out root access. All of the students have user accounts on one HPUX
system, and that's it. Some will be willing to install Linux or BSD on
their own machines, and I plan to encourage that, but I can't require it.

Does anyone out there have ideas, experience or pointers to resources for
teaching system administration with little or no hands-on? 

Thanks, 
Dan Marner

--
Dan Marner                         Sys/Network/DB Admin
dmarner@marada-corp.com            Marada Corporation
(304) 534-5600                     Fairmont, WV



From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 11 06:21:29 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA12353
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:21:29 -0800 (PST)
Received: from relay.nswc.navy.mil (relay.nswc.navy.mil [128.38.1.41])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA12344
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:21:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mailsrvx (mailsrvx.nswc.navy.mil) by relay.nswc.navy.mil
	(4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14899; Mon, 11 Jan 99 09:18:59 EST
Received: by mailsrvx (4.1/SMI-4.1)
	id AA10320; Mon, 11 Jan 99 09:20:11 EST
From: "Dwight Peters" <dpeters@nswc.navy.mil>
Message-Id: <9901110920.ZM10318@mailsrvx>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:20:10 -0500
In-Reply-To: owner-sage-members-digest@usenix.ORG
	"sage-members-digest V1 #249" (Jan  9,  2:00am)
References: <199901091000.CAA28598@usenix.ORG>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95)
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: sage-members-digest V1 #249
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

My experience with netapp has been all positive.

-- 
Dwight Petersen is a system administrator.  
Standard disclaimers.



From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 11 07:25:40 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA14607
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 07:25:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: from phibes.dartmouth.edu (phibes.dartmouth.edu [129.170.18.45])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA14598
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 07:25:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from paw@localhost) by phibes.dartmouth.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id
	KAA10690 for sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:23:05 -0500
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:23:05 -0500
From: paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu
Message-Id: <199901111523.KAA10690@phibes.dartmouth.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Solaris experts wanted for SAGE project
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Folks -

SAGE has been approached by a company that makes employment tests (skills
tests that hiring departments can give to applicants) for help in finding
authors and reviewers.   At the moment, they're looking for someone to
author a Solaris sysadmin test (or rather, to write good Solaris questions; 
they worry about the actual "constructing the test" parts).  The job does
pay, and there are contracts to sign.  

SAGE is contemplating a "branding" program for such applicant skill assesments 
(a seal of approval, really - saying that this particular test does adequately 
assess what it claims to assess).  The branding decision (and creating of a Seal 
program) is still ahead of us; the newly elected Board will need to make the 
final decision.  Right now, we're trying to help by providing candidate
authors.

If you're interested (either in authoring or potentially being a reviewer
for the test, once it's written), please let me know ASAP and I'll fill in 
the details.

Pat Wilson
paw@dartmouth.edu || paw@usenix.org


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 11 07:41:09 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA15225
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 07:41:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: from peak.org (root@PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA15213
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 07:41:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (sechrest@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peak.org
	(8.8.5/8.6.7) with ESMTP id HAA10913;
	Mon, 11 Jan 1999 07:38:22 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199901111538.HAA10913@peak.org>
To: Dan Marner <dmarner@marada-corp.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Teaching System Administration with limited hands-on 
In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:16:00 EST.
	<Pine.LNX.4.04.9901110900100.13836-100000@zeus.marada-corp.com> 
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 07:38:21 -0800
From: John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


	I take a rather hands on approach. Including clients to work
	with and test machines. But most of my students have
	computers at home, so most of them could do the root thing
	on a home PC with linux. 
	
	If you look at my course area, you will find a list
	of resources for system admin classes:
	
	http://www.peak.org/dl/sysadm
	
			


Dan Marner <dmarner@marada-corp.com> writes:


 % I am teaching a course in System Administration as part of a graduate
 % program in Software Engineering. Since it is part of an SE program, and is
 % therefore targeted at developers rather than aspiring sys admins, I am
 % concentrating more on abstract issues such as writing a disaster recovery
 % plan than on platform-specific details.

 % That said, there is a lot of interest among my students in getting some
 % practical experience in the administration of UNIX and NT systems.
 % Unfortunately, I don't have a lab full of workstations on which I can hand
 % out root access. All of the students have user accounts on one HPUX
 % system, and that's it. Some will be willing to install Linux or BSD on
 % their own machines, and I plan to encourage that, but I can't require it.

 % Does anyone out there have ideas, experience or pointers to resources for
 % teaching system administration with little or no hands-on? 

 % Thanks, 
 % Dan Marner
 % 
 % --
 % Dan Marner                         Sys/Network/DB Admin
 % dmarner@marada-corp.com            Marada Corporation
 % (304) 534-5600                     Fairmont, WV
 % 

-----
John Sechrest          .         Helping people use
   PEAK -               .           computers and the Internet
Public Electronic         .            more effectively
Access to Knowledge,Inc       .                      
850 SW 15th Street              .            Internet: sechrest@peak.org
Corvallis Oregon 97331               .                  (541) 754-7325
                                            . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 11 08:50:13 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA18113
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:50:13 -0800 (PST)
Received: from highwire.stanford.edu (highwire.Stanford.EDU [171.64.249.40])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA18101
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:50:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from chtudor@localhost) by highwire.stanford.edu (8.8.5/8.7.1) id
	IAA16099; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:47:17 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:47:16 -0800 (PST)
From: "Chad H. Tudor" <chtudor@stanford.edu>
To: Dwight Peters <dpeters@nswc.navy.mil>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: sage-members-digest V1 #249
In-Reply-To: <9901110920.ZM10318@mailsrvx>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990111083950.15532F-100000@highwire.stanford.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

:My experience with netapp has been all positive.

Mine has not.
I love the hardware, but the support staff and sales staff is less then
useful.

Currently our orginazation is in the midst of a 3 week long 'degraded'
mode because the techs are incompetent and know less about the F630 then I
do.

Were looking for NetApp to resolve the situation by Wensday or were going
to dump the device and switch to EMC products.

I'll write another note on the subject later once the situation has
improved.  I'll also clue everyone in as to if Network Appliance were able
to resolve the situation to our satisfaction and give the finer details
once I can give more time to correspondence. 

OBrecap:
	The hardware is bulletproof, I have not lost so much as a byte of
data our of 250gig.  The support is shite.

Regards
	
         
	 Chad H Tudor     System Administrator     Highwire Press
          chtudor@stanford.edu      http://highwire.stanford.edu



From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 11 10:05:13 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA20945
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:05:13 -0800 (PST)
Received: from storm.nando.net ([152.52.2.139])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA20935
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:05:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from majordomo@localhost)
	by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25784
	for ncsa-announce-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:57:55 -0500 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: storm.nando.net: majordomo set sender to
	owner-ncsa-announce@nando.net using -f
Received: from lamb.sas.com (root@lamb.sas.com [192.35.83.8])
	by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25780
	for <ncsa-announce@nando.net>; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:57:52 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mozart (mozart.unx.sas.com [192.58.184.8])
	by lamb.sas.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA04098
	for <ncsa-announce@nando.net>; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:54:37 -0500 (EST)
Received: from ntgate01.pc.sas.com by mozart (5.65c/SAS/Domains/5-6-90)
	id AA06594; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:54:36 -0500
Received: by ntgate01.pc.sas.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
	id <CRM2YWPG>; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:54:35 -0500
Message-Id: <FDAEB36E0478D211842100A0C9AB18CA74D925@ntmail06.pc.sas.com>
From: Heather Flanagan <heflan@wnt.sas.com>
To: "'ncsa-announce@nando.net'" <ncsa-announce@nando.net>
Subject: REMINDER: NC*SA meeting tonight, 6pm!
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:54:26 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Don't forget tonight's presentation by John Collins of Duke University on
the North Carolina Networking Initiative!  Tonight, 6pm, Dreyfus auditorium,
RTP.  Free pizza and soda as always, and directions follow at the end of
this message.

We also have scheduled several interesting topics over the next few months,
including Paul Jones to talk about Web Privacy in February, and Ernest
Bowman-Cisneros (Duke), to discuss Network Flight Recorder.

Mark your calendars!

============================== 
 
Our meetings are free and open to anyone with an interest in the topic
of the evening.  We will be providing food and drink for the evening.
If you have any questions please contact: 

  Heather Flanagan 
  SAS Institute Inc. 
  SAS Campus Drive 
  Cary, NC  27513  
  (919) 677-8000 x5522
  heflan@unx.sas.com

==============================

For information about the NC System Administrators group, contact our
Majordomo mailing list server.  The "ncsa-discussion" mailing list has
been created to facilitate discussions of interest to system
administrators from the state of North Carolina.

Simply send email to "majordomo@nando.net":

        mail majordomo@nando.net
        Subject:

        subscribe ncsa-discussion

After subscribing, Majordomo will send you the help file and info file
for our mailing list.  These files contain instructions for retrieving
other files available to the NCSA organization (e.g.  the presentation
material from past technical programs are available for retrieval via
Majordomo!!) 

To unsubscribe from this meeting announcement list, send a message to the 
same address, with the following line in the body: 

        unsubscribe ncsa-announce

==============================

Directions to Research Triangle Institute
(see also:  http://www.rti.org/images/campus.gif)

 From I-40 west of RTP (e.g. Chapel Hill):

  Get onto I-40 heading east.  Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham
  Freeway - North (towards Durham).  Stay in right lane.  Shift right as
  soon as possible after merging with traffic coming off I-40 westbound.

  Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road).  At top of exit,
  turn to the left.  (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you
  are going the wrong direction.)  After turning left onto Cornwallis,
  shift immediately to the right lane.  Take the second right onto East
  Institute Drive.  Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. 
  Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right.  Use the
  parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance.

 From I-40 east of RTP (e.g. Raleigh):

  Get onto I-40 heading west.  Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham
  Freeway - North (towards Durham).  Shift to rightmost lane as soon as
  possible Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road).  At top
  of exit, turn to the left.  (If you turn right and cross over the
  bridge, you are going the wrong direction.)  After turning left onto
  Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane.  Take the second
  right onto East Institute Drive.  Take the second right off of East
  Institute Drive.  Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on
  your right.  Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the
  main entrance.

 From north of RTP (e.g. Durham):

  Get onto NC-147 - Durham Freeway - south.  Exit at the Cornwallis Road
  exit.  At the top of the exit, turn left to cross over the bridge. 
  After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right
  lane.  Take the second right onto East Institute Drive.  Take the
  second right off of East Institute Drive.  Dreyfus Laboratory will be
  the first building on your right.  Use the parking lot in front of the
  Lab and enter at the main entrance.



From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 11 11:42:20 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA24617
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:42:20 -0800 (PST)
Received: from catbert.eecs.harvard.edu (catbert.eecs.harvard.edu
	[140.247.60.168]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA24607
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:42:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from catbert.eecs.harvard.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by catbert.eecs.harvard.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA11729;
	Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:37:48 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199901111937.OAA11729@catbert.eecs.harvard.edu>
To: "Chad H. Tudor" <chtudor@stanford.edu>
cc: Dwight Peters <dpeters@nswc.navy.mil>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: sage-members-digest V1 #249 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:47:16 PST."
	<Pine.GSO.3.96.990111083950.15532F-100000@highwire.stanford.edu> 
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:37:48 -0500
From: Peg Schafer <peg@eecs.harvard.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Hello,

I am so sorry to hear about your problems with NetApp, However,
I must say my experience has been quite the opposite!

NetApp hardware is wonderful.  Lots of good things to say there.
I have had many good experiences with their support over the years.

As a matter of fact, they got one of their engineers out of bed
at 3am (!!!  that is 3am their time) to look at a crash dump for me.

In addition, they have called me telling me about a problem
they had discovered with a certain type of memory and searching their
records have discovered one of my systems had this memory and that they
were sending me new memory so NO PROBLEMS may bite me later.  

Whoa !!! I was impressed.  Sun, DEC, etc. never did that for me!
(ps nope I do not have premium HW support - it is the cheapest possible -
parts swap)

Cheers
--Peg


 -------------------------------------------------------------
  Peg Schafer                            peg@eecs.harvard.edu
  Unix Systems Manager for EECS & Robotics
  Division of Engineering and Applied Sciences
  ESL, 40 Oxford Street, EECS Computer Support, Room 112
  Harvard University                      voice: 617-495-4927
  Cambridge, MA 02138-2901                fax:   617-496-5109
 -------------------------------------------------------------


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 11 13:22:40 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA28936
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:22:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gwyn.tux.org (gwyn.tux.org [207.96.122.8])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA28919
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:22:30 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from jsdy@localhost) by gwyn.tux.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA02556;
	Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:20:03 -0500
From: Joseph S D Yao <jsdy@tux.org>
Message-Id: <199901112120.QAA02556@gwyn.tux.org>
Subject: Re: Teaching System Administration with limited hands-on
To: dmarner@marada-corp.com (Dan Marner)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:20:03 -0500 (EST)
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.04.9901110900100.13836-100000@zeus.marada-corp.com>
	from "Dan Marner" at Jan 11, 99 09:16:00 am
Reply-To: jsdy@tux.org
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

> Does anyone out there have ideas, experience or pointers to resources for
> teaching system administration with little or no hands-on? 

Bad idea.  You learn 10% of what you hear, 30% of what you hear, and 70%
of what you do.  [Don't quote me on the numbers - my first Instructor
courses were years or decades ago, I forget which.  ;-)]  Also, with
system administration (as with many other things), which made the most
impression on you - the sternest warning you ever heard, or the worst
blunder you or someone working with you made?

Get 486's and set them up with a Freenix.  Best thing to do.  And,
it's recycling!  ;-)

--
/*********************************************************************\
**
** Joe Yao				jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao
**
\*********************************************************************/


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 12 06:11:42 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05270
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 06:11:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: from tsdis02.nascom.nasa.gov (tsdis02-f.nascom.nasa.gov
	[198.118.195.100]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05261
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 06:11:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from alban@localhost) by tsdis02.nascom.nasa.gov
	(980427.SGI.8.8.8/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id JAA21939 for
	sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:09:08 -0500 (EST)
From: alban@tsdis02.nascom.nasa.gov (David Alban)
Message-ID: <19990112090908.A20789@tsdis02>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:09:08 -0500
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Teaching System Administration with limited hands-on
Reply-To: david.alban@gsfc.nasa.gov
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Dan Marner <dmarner@marada-corp.com> wrote:
> Does anyone out there have ideas, experience or pointers to resources for
> teaching system administration with little or no hands-on? 

You said each student has/will have access to a shell account on an
HP-UX machine.  I think that a very important facet of unix systems
administration is knowledge of the workings of, and differences
between the different shells.

Almost everything a user or admin does on a unix box involves a
shell, if only indirectly.  So I think that almost everything one
does on a unix box can be improved by becoming as much an expert on
shells as one can.  Most knowledge about shells is portable.  And
you can learn shells with a couple of books, man pages, and a
non-privileged account.

I'd feel much better about a shell-clueful newbie admin having root
than one who wasn't as clueful about shells.

David

P.S.  Processes would also be a good topic.  I guess the idea is that
      it is important not only to understand what you do to
      administer unix, but also to understand how unix systems work.
---
Rules of Cat Etiquette, #9:
  Get enough sleep during the daytime so that you are fresh for
  playing at night between two and four in the morning.


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 12 11:07:03 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA16650
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:07:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from psasolar.colltech.com (psasolar.colltech.com [208.229.236.14])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA16641
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:06:52 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (cmh@localhost)
	by psasolar.colltech.com (VER/What/1.0) with ESMTP id NAA18835
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:04:27 -0600 (CST)
X-Authentication-Warning: psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com: cmh owned process
	doing -bs
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:04:27 -0600 (CST)
From: "Carolyn M. Hennings" <cmh@colltech.com>
X-Sender: cmh@psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: January chigrp Meeting: Building Unix Machines 
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901121303360.5837-100000@psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Join us at our next meeting where there will be an informative
presentation on:

 Building Unix Machines:
 The Ins and Outs of the HP-UX, SD-UX,
 and Solaris Jumpstart Tools  

 Thursday, January 14th
 7:00 - 9:00 pm

 ACNielsen Building
 150 North Martingale,
 Schaumburg IL


Abstract

If you have ever rebuilt a machine from scratch, you know the
headaches of getting everything just right. You must remember
everything you did before. All  of the little tweaks must be
put back in the right spot for everything to work right again.

If you have more than a couple of machines to build, and they
all need to be built the same way, you know it can be a very
time-consuming process. If it's manual, steps are bound to be
missed, causing additional work in the future.

Both HP and Sun provide ways of incorporating the little tweaks
into a system that automatically installs those customizations
when building a unix workstation.  These automatic systems then
allow you to build a large number of machines automatically in a
short period of time. 


About the Speaker

Lewis Muhlenkamp has been a system administrator full-time for
the past 6 years and part time for 5 years before that.  He has
been working for Motorola for the past 5 years.  His main tasks
have been front-line support, migration of HP-UX 9 to HP-UX 10,
migration of HP-UX 9 to Solaris 2.6 and now working on y2k, just
like everyone else.  He currently helps support approximately
1500 machines and 750 users.


Socializing

Following the presentation we will gather at Bennigan's at the
intersection of Higgins and Martingale. 

chigrp Web Site
        
  http://www.usenix.org/sage/locals/chigrp/

Directions

Located at 150 North Martingale Road, Between Higgins and Biesterfield,
just off of I-290/Route 53.

>From the South:

Exit I-290/Route 53 at Biesterfield, turn left (West) on Biesterfield. Turn
right (North) on Martingale Road. Proceed North on Martingale Road, past
stoplight at Schaumburg Road. Turn left (West) at ACNielsen sign (after
the Schaumburg Marriott Hotel).

>From the North:

Exit I-290/Route 53 at Higgins, turn right (West) on Higgins. Turn left
(South) on Martingale Road.  Proceed South on Martingale Road, past
stoplight at Corporate Crossing. Turn right (West) at ACNielsen sign
(before the Schaumburg Marriott Hotel).

Parking:

Parking is available in the parking a garage to the rear of the facility.
After parking take the elevator or stairs to the 2nd floor, then take the
walkway into the building lobby. Check in at  the ACNielsen desk, mention
you are with SAGE/chigrp, and you will be directed to the conference room
for the meeting.




From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 12 13:11:27 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA22576
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:11:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA22561
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:11:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: by hustle.rahul.net with UUCP id AA23295
	(5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for sage-members@usenix.org);
	Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:08:53 -0800
Received: from canopus.starshine.org (canopus.starshine.org [192.168.64.3])
	by antares.starshine.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA15075;
	Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:05:43 -0800
Received: from canopus.starshine.org (jimd@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by canopus.starshine.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA11909;
	Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:05:42 -0800
Message-Id: <199901122105.NAA11909@canopus.starshine.org>
To: jsdy@tux.org
Cc: dmarner@marada-corp.com (Dan Marner), sage-members@usenix.org
X-Mailer: MH 8.6.3
Subject: Re: Teaching System Administration with limited hands-on 
In-Reply-To: <199901112120.QAA02556@gwyn.tux.org> 
	Message Apparently From Joseph S D Yao <jsdy@tux.org> 
	Dated Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:20:03 EST.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:05:42 -0800
From: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

 
>> Does anyone out there have ideas, experience or pointers to
>> resources for teaching system administration with little or no
>> hands-on?

	You can have them read Nemeth and Frisch, go through 
	USAIL (web based free training), browse ugu (Unix Guru
	Universe) and geek-girl and all of that.

	However, it just doesn't make sense in this day and age
	to attempt to teach any computer related subject without
	providing full access to suitable computers.  

	It's like suggesting that you train doctors for surgery
	without access to any cadavers or provide training to
	carpenters without the students ever touching a hammer or a
	saw.  (O.K. you said "limited" --- so they get to handle
	hammers and saws --- but not use them to drive nails and
	cut wood).

	At a certain point I'd go to the administration and say:

		This program is a disservice to the students.
		Provide us with the resources that are required
		to effectively teach the topic --- or refer those
		students to some institution that will "do it
		right."
 
> Bad idea.  You learn 10% of what you hear, 30% of what you hear, and 70%
                                                            ^^^^^= see ?

> of what you do.  [Don't quote me on the numbers - my first Instructor
> courses were years or decades ago, I forget which.  ;-)]  Also, with
> system administration (as with many other things), which made the most
> impression on you - the sternest warning you ever heard, or the worst
> blunder you or someone working with you made?

> Get 486's and set them up with a Freenix.  Best thing to do.  And,
> it's recycling!  ;-)
 
	I agree with the general sentiment here.
	Surely you can get someone to donate a few old 386 and
	486 systems with ethernet cards and an 8 or 16 port 
	hub.

	(You can get new machines for less than $500 each ---
	and bare bones 200Mhz Cyrix x86' systems with 32Mb
	for about $200 --- just add hard drive and NIC).

	I'm sure you have monitors and keyboards (presumably
	on Windows workstations) in some computer lab some where.

	So the challenges are:

		1) get these systems 
		2) find a "home" for them (closet with wall power)
		3) provide access to them (telnet from the 
		   other workstations and terminals that you
	           currently use for user/level access to the 
		   other Unix server(s)).
		4) Allay any concerns about students abusing your
		   LAN segment (sniffers, etc).
		5) Have the students install different versions of
		   Linux and FreeBSD onto each of the donated
		   systems, repeatedly.

	... note that last word.  Giving student root access to a 
	testbed system will entail frequent IPLs on that testbed.

	This means that you have to provide at least one console 
	monitor and keyboard (and possibly a KVM switchbox or
	two) to provide that access.  For each of these testbed
	PCs you can leave a CD of the appropriate version of freenix
	"locked in" to the CD drive on that system.  For older
	386 and 486 systems you'll also have to leave a suitable
	boot floppy in place (older PCs didn't have the BIOS 
	routines to boot from CDs).  (All in all a locked closet
	sounds like a bad idea in this case.  Just put them under a
	table in the back of one of your computer labs).

	You can then have every student practice wiping out and 
	re-installing each of the freenix variants you're using.
	They can be encouraged to "have fun" during the "wipe out"
	phase (find out first hand what happens when you trash the
	shared libraries).

	I highly recommend that you have them learn FreeBSD as
	well as Linux.  (There are about 10 million Linux users
	out there --- this hardly looks distinguished on a 
	resume compared to the 1 million or so FreeBSD users.
	Get them both!  With user level experience on Solaris
	--- or HP-UX, AIX, etc your students will then be in a 
	fair position to compete for entry level positions).

	(As a hiring manager I'd be far more interested in the
	candidates that have set up and used such systems at home
	--- particularly if they have it in some sort of
	"production" use as their home LAN to Internet gateway,
	household fileserver etc).
	
	You say you can't "require" these students to have
	and use home computers (fair enough).  However, you can
	tell them the harsh reality.  If they walk into an interview
	or worse an initial day on the job, without some decent 
	hands on experience they're courting disaster (or
	disappointment at the very least).


--
Jim Dennis  (800) 938-4078		consulting@starshine.org
Proprietor, Starshine Technical Services:  http://www.starshine.org


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 12 13:11:26 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA22573
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:11:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA22556
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:11:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: by hustle.rahul.net with UUCP id AA23283
	(5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for sage-members@usenix.org);
	Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:08:49 -0800
Received: from canopus.starshine.org (canopus.starshine.org [192.168.64.3])
	by antares.starshine.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA14068;
	Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:23:12 -0800
Received: from canopus.starshine.org (jimd@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by canopus.starshine.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA11773;
	Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:23:11 -0800
Message-Id: <199901122023.MAA11773@canopus.starshine.org>
To: paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org, star@starshine.org
X-Mailer: MH 8.6.3
Subject: Re: Solaris experts wanted for SAGE project 
In-Reply-To: <199901111523.KAA10690@phibes.dartmouth.edu> 
	Message Apparently From paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu 
	Dated Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:23:05 EST.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:23:08 -0800
From: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


 
> Folks -
 
> SAGE has been approached by a company that makes employment tests
> (skills tests that hiring departments can give to applicants) for
> help in finding authors and reviewers.  At the moment, they're
> looking for someone to author a Solaris sysadmin test (or rather,
> to write good Solaris questions; they worry about the actual
> "constructing the test" parts).  The job does pay, and there are
> contracts to sign.
 
> SAGE is contemplating a "branding" program for such applicant
> skill assesments (a seal of approval, really - saying that this
> particular test does adequately assess what it claims to assess).
> The branding decision (and creating of a Seal program) is still
> ahead of us; the newly elected Board will need to make the final
> decision.  Right now, we're trying to help by providing candidate
> authors.

	This will be an interesting program.  However,  I'd
	like to make sure that it avoids any appearance of
	impropriety by spelling out the financial implications
	of getting such a seal.

	In particular I'd hate to see small community college
	and "open source" assessment efforts closed out of this
	process due to licensing fees (for the SAGE seal) while
	I'd like to see SAGE/USENIX accrue some revenue from the
	process.
 
> If you're interested (either in authoring or potentially being a
> reviewer for the test, once it's written), please let me know ASAP
> and I'll fill in the details.

	I'd like to be a reviewer.  I'd be happy to pose questions
	and suggest possible answers --- but I don't consider myself
	to be a Solaris expert (particularly with newer versions
	of Solaris ---- 2.6 and version 7).


	(Is it just me or does referring to "version 7" sound 
	incredibly "retro" in relation to modern versions of
	Unix)

	Heather does have somewhat more experience with recent
	versions of Solaris --- though she doesn't like it as 
	much as FreeBSD or Linux.  Maybe she'll agree to
	participate.
 
> Pat Wilson
> paw@dartmouth.edu || paw@usenix.org

--
Jim Dennis  (800) 938-4078		consulting@starshine.org
Proprietor, Starshine Technical Services:  http://www.starshine.org


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 12 14:11:43 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA25332
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:11:43 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rigel.dartmouth.edu (rigel.dartmouth.edu [129.170.18.204])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA25322
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:11:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rigel.dartmouth.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by
	rigel.dartmouth.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA212109;
	Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:09:02 -0500
Message-Id: <199901122209.RAA212109@rigel.dartmouth.edu>
To: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Solaris experts wanted for SAGE project 
In-reply-to: (Your message of Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:23:08 EST.)
	<199901122023.MAA11773@canopus.starshine.org> 
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:09:01 -0500
From: Pat Wilson <paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Jim Dennis writes:
>  	This will be an interesting program.  However,  I'd
>  	like to make sure that it avoids any appearance of
>  	impropriety by spelling out the financial implications
>  	of getting such a seal.

There _are_ no financial implications, as far as I'm concerned
(in the arrangement I'm envisioning).  The testing company will
be paying *individuals* to author tests, and (presumably) other
individuals to review it; at the time everyone's happy, the idea
is that the test is submitted to SAGE for "seal review".  I'm not
anticipating any money changing hands in SAGEs direction.
  
>  	In particular I'd hate to see small community college
>  	and "open source" assessment efforts closed out of this
>  	process due to licensing fees (for the SAGE seal) while
>  	I'd like to see SAGE/USENIX accrue some revenue from the
>  	process.

I'm much less concerned with SAGE getting money from this.  My
main interests are (a) raising SAGE's visibility and (b) helping
folks construct testing instruments that are meaningful.

Of course, the final deal won't be struck until after the new
SAGE Board seats, so things may change a bit.

Pat Wilson
paw@dartmouth.edu 

PS BTW, we've got all the author candidates we need for this one
now, thanks!


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 12 15:27:32 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA28447
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:27:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gwyn.tux.org (gwyn.tux.org [207.96.122.8])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA28438
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:27:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from jsdy@localhost) by gwyn.tux.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA10942;
	Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:24:57 -0500
From: Joseph S D Yao <jsdy@tux.org>
Message-Id: <199901122324.SAA10942@gwyn.tux.org>
Subject: Re: Teaching System Administration with limited hands-on
To: jimd@starshine.org (Jim Dennis)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:24:56 -0500 (EST)
Cc: jsdy@tux.org, dmarner@marada-corp.com, sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <199901122105.NAA11909@canopus.starshine.org> from "Jim Dennis"
	at Jan 12, 99 01:05:42 pm
Reply-To: jsdy@tux.org
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

> > Bad idea.  You learn 10% of what you hear, 30% of what you hear, and 70%
>                                                             ^^^^^= see ?
> 
> > of what you do.  ...

Obviously, I haven't "done" that quote in too long.  I'll go home and
write it - correctly - some large number of times.  ;-]

--
/*********************************************************************\
**
** Joe Yao				jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao
**
\*********************************************************************/


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 12 15:29:31 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA28580
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:29:31 -0800 (PST)
Received: from serv1.is1.u-net.net (lizard.u-net.net [195.102.240.251])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA28556
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:29:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [195.102.191.217] (helo=padova.u-net.com)
	by serv1.is1.u-net.net with esmtp (Exim 2.00 #2)
	id 100BsM-0003nB-00; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:01:30 +0000
Message-ID: <369BC68C.5341D2CB@padova.u-net.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:02:52 +0000
From: Anthony Botham <asb@padova.u-net.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.35 i686)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Peg Schafer <peg@eecs.harvard.edu>
CC: "Chad H. Tudor" <chtudor@stanford.edu>,
	Dwight Peters <dpeters@nswc.navy.mil>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: sage-members-digest V1 #249
References: <199901111937.OAA11729@catbert.eecs.harvard.edu>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature";
	micalg=sha1; boundary="------------msF7E1C94094887E242EE8CBFE"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format.

--------------msF7E1C94094887E242EE8CBFE
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


Well in the UK I've had mostly good experiences.   The hardware is great -
reliable and fast - and the support excellent if you get the right
person.      I particularly like having salesmen who really understand the
product (technically) and how they are best used.

Anthony

Peg Schafer wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am so sorry to hear about your problems with NetApp, However,
> I must say my experience has been quite the opposite!
>
> NetApp hardware is wonderful.  Lots of good things to say there.
> I have had many good experiences with their support over the years.
>
> As a matter of fact, they got one of their engineers out of bed
> at 3am (!!!  that is 3am their time) to look at a crash dump for me.
>
> In addition, they have called me telling me about a problem
> they had discovered with a certain type of memory and searching their
> records have discovered one of my systems had this memory and that they
> were sending me new memory so NO PROBLEMS may bite me later.
>
> Whoa !!! I was impressed.  Sun, DEC, etc. never did that for me!
> (ps nope I do not have premium HW support - it is the cheapest possible -
> parts swap)
>
> Cheers
> --Peg
>
>  -------------------------------------------------------------
>   Peg Schafer                            peg@eecs.harvard.edu
>   Unix Systems Manager for EECS & Robotics
>   Division of Engineering and Applied Sciences
>   ESL, 40 Oxford Street, EECS Computer Support, Room 112
>   Harvard University                      voice: 617-495-4927
>   Cambridge, MA 02138-2901                fax:   617-496-5109
>  -------------------------------------------------------------

--------------msF7E1C94094887E242EE8CBFE
Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s"
Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
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==
--------------msF7E1C94094887E242EE8CBFE--



From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 12 17:59:19 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA04582
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:59:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hulaw5.law.harvard.edu (hulaw5.law.harvard.edu [140.247.200.68])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA04573
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:59:13 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hulaw6.law.harvard.edu (hulaw6.law.harvard.edu
	[140.247.204.175])
	by hulaw5.law.harvard.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA17781;
	Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:56:12 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from ptemples@localhost)
	by hulaw6.law.harvard.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id UAA14523;
	Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:57:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Phil Temples  <ptemples@hulaw6.law.harvard.edu>
Message-Id: <199901130157.UAA14523@hulaw6.law.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: PGP key-signing party (summary)
To: bblisa@bblisa.org, sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:57:21 -0500 (EST)
Reply-to: ptemples@law.harvard.edu
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Hi all,

I cross-posted my original query about PGP key signing parties to the SAGE-Members 
and BBLISA lists.  Follows is a cross-section of the responses.  Thanks to all who 
took the time to respond!

Phil Temples originally asked:

> I've suggested to our local IT users group that we hold a PGP
> key-signing party at our next monthly meeting.  I've never actually been
> a part of a key-signing party, and so I am looking for suggestions on
> how to structure this critter.  I have given it some thought, and
> believe that I know the requirements, but I don't want to overlook
> anything.

> Comments (direct to me) if you have any, and I'll be glad to summarize
> for the list.  Thanks in advance.

Dave Pascoe <dave@mathworks.com> replied:

| This is a good start:
| 
| http://ftp.nl.net/events/sane98/keysigning-party.html
| 

I also heard from John Orthoefer <jco@bbnplanet.com>, who wrote:

> ...Here is how they normally work:

>         o you should tell people what they need to bring.
>            + a photo ID with name printed on it. (Drivers Licence or Passports
> are good)
>              corprate IDs and health club cards are bad
>            + a PGP key fingerprint (some people print up either stickers for
> the back of busness cards or just little slips of paper.)
>            + what server your key is on.
>         o at the BOF/Party you should give a small intro to what PGP is.  And
> how to check IDs because you are signing off that you believe this
> person is who they say they are.
>         o It would be good for you to print up little hand outs which say how
> to sign a key.

Tom Fitzgerald <tfitz@MIT.EDU> passed along what he calls the "Derek Atkins"
key-signing scheme, which Tom says is well-evolved to avoid some subtle threats
and logistical problems:

*   There are many ways to hold a key-signing session. Many viable
*   suggestions have been given. And, just to add more signal to this
*   newsgroup, I will suggest another one which seems to work very well
*   and also solves the N-squared problem of distributing and signing
*   keys. Here is the process:
*   
*    1. You announce the keysinging session, and ask everyone who plans to
*       come to send you (or some single person who *will* be there) their
*       public key. The RSVP also allows for a count of the number of
*       people for step 3.
*       
*    2. You compile the public keys into a single keyring, run "pgp -kvc"
*       on that keyring, and save the output to a file.
*       
*    3. Print out N copies of the "pgp -kvc" file onto hardcopy, and bring
*       this and the keyring on media to the meeting.
*       
*    4. At the meeting, distribute the printouts, and provide a site to
*       retreive the keyring (an ftp site works, or you can make floppy
*       copies, or whatever -- it doesn't matter).
*       
*    5. When you are all in the room, each person stands up, and people
*       vouch for this person (e.g., "Yes, this really is Derek Atkins --
*       I went to school with him for 6 years, and lived with him for 2").
*       
*    6. Each person securely obtains their own fingerprint, and after
*       being vouched for, they then read out their fingerprint out loud
*       so everyone can verify it on the printout they have.
*       
*    7. After everyone finishes this protocol, they can go home, obtain
*       the keyring, run "pgp -kvc" on it themselves, and re-verify the
*       bits, and sign the keys at their own leisure.
*       
*    8. To save load on the keyservers, you can optionally send all
*       signatures to the original person, who can coalate them again into
*       a single keyring and propagate that single keyring to the
*       keyservers and to each individual.

Additionally, Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org> was kind enough to include text from
a SVLUG/LinuxWorld "GNU Privacy Guard" key signing event.  It's a little long to 
include in its entirety here, but it is certainly well thought out.  I'll be happy 
to pass it along on Jim's behalf, if requested.  Thanks, Jim!

Finally,  my sincere thanks to Greg Rose <ggr@qualcomm.com>, who included excerpts 
of his introductory text that he wrote for the USENIX PGP keysigning service, found
at: http://www.usenix.org/pgp/pgpintro.html .  Greg and I exchanged several e-mails
about some more subtle aspects of trust as it relates to those who conduct the 
actual PGP key-signing party.  

Thanks, everyone!

Phil

--
Phil Temples
UNIX Systems Administrator
Information Technology Services
Harvard Law School
1575 Massachusetts Avenue
Cambridge, MA 02138
Phone:  617 496-6518
Fax:  617 495-1110
E-mail: ptemples@law.harvard.edu
PGP fingerprint: 6614 A7D7 ADC5 BF32  75D6 84BF CF81 E452


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 12 18:11:50 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA05079
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:11:50 -0800 (PST)
Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA05070
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:11:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from vega.cs.duke.edu (vega.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.193])
	by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA21233
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:09:23 -0500 (EST)
Received: from localhost (des@localhost) 
	by vega.cs.duke.edu (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP
	id VAA26877 for <sage-members@usenix.org>;
	Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:09:21 -0500 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: vega.cs.duke.edu: des owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:09:21 -0500 (EST)
From: "Daniel E. Singer" <des@cs.duke.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: regarding the elections
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901052356150.29945-100000@vega.cs.duke.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Geez!  I was just going over the SAGE Election Info., and what a
challenge.  In most elections, I usually have to decide who're the
least offensive bozos to vote for.  This was really quite the
opposite: a very hard decision because everyone is so qualified and
has so much to offer.  It was really hard deciding who _not_ to vote
for.

It was a tough choice.  My congratulations to all of the candidates!

-Dan

-- 
Daniel E. Singer, Systems Administrator
Dept. of Computer Science, Duke University, Durham NC 27708 USA
des@cs.duke.edu, www.cs.duke.edu/~des, (919)660-6577





From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 13 07:11:00 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA01726
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:11:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: from eclectic.kluge.net (root@eclectic.kluge.net [206.114.160.248])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA01717
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:10:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: from eclectic.kluge.net (felicity@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by eclectic.kluge.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA19324
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:08:30 -0500
Message-Id: <199901131508.KAA19324@eclectic.kluge.net>
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: sage-members-digest V1 #249 
In-Reply-To: Message from Peg Schafer <peg@eecs.harvard.edu> of "Mon,
	11 Jan 1999 14:37:48 EST."
	<199901111937.OAA11729@catbert.eecs.harvard.edu> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:08:29 -0500
From: Theo Van Dinter <felicity@kluge.net>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

| NetApp hardware is wonderful.  Lots of good things to say there.
| I have had many good experiences with their support over the years.
|
| In addition, they have called me telling me about a problem
| they had discovered with a certain type of memory and searching their
| records have discovered one of my systems had this memory and that they
| were sending me new memory so NO PROBLEMS may bite me later.  

I wasn't going to chime in, but I thought I would second this.  The only 
problem I've ever had with NetApp was when they accidently swapped two boxes 
when shipping an RMA out.  We also had them ship us new memory (I think it was 
the same issue actually.)

We've even gone so far as to call them on a Saturday morning (~10:30a EST) and 
they shipped us a new filer PS same day, had it installed by 6:30p EST.

They're not inexpensive, but you definately get what you pay for.

-- 
Randomly Generated Tagline:
*/ \*       <-Tribbles having a swordfight





From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 13 11:11:44 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA10851
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:11:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA10842
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:11:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: by hustle.rahul.net with UUCP id AA21540
	(5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for sage-members@usenix.org);
	Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:08:55 -0800
Received: from betelgeuse.starshine.org ([209.157.85.18])
	by antares.starshine.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14096;
	Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:41:30 -0800
Received: (from star@localhost)
	by betelgeuse.starshine.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02324;
	Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:28:26 -0800
From: Heather Stern <star@starshine.org>
Message-Id: <199901131828.KAA02324@betelgeuse.starshine.org>
Subject: Re: Solaris experts wanted for SAGE project
In-Reply-To: <199901122023.MAA11773@canopus.starshine.org> from Jim Dennis at
	"Jan 12, 99 12:23:08 pm"
To: jimd@starshine.org (Jim Dennis)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:28:26 -0800 (PST)
Cc: paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu, sage-members@usenix.org, star@starshine.org
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I ate the fortune cookie first, then read what Jim Dennis wrote:
>  
> > Folks -
>  
> > SAGE has been approached by a company that makes employment tests
> > (skills tests that hiring departments can give to applicants) for
> > help in finding authors and reviewers.  At the moment, they're
> > looking for someone to author a Solaris sysadmin test (or rather,
> > to write good Solaris questions; they worry about the actual
> > "constructing the test" parts).  The job does pay, and there are
> > contracts to sign.

Personally since I think some of the most important traits of sysadmin'ing
are not OS based, I would consider it fair if the questions were fairly
generic, but the best answers were Solaris (or even nits about Solaris
versions) specific.

I don't favor multiple-choice only tests, unless all offer a "none of the
above" and a an "explaining in detail" pick.  I've often been annoyed at
a multiple choice quiz because the 'best answer' was still wrong in a
subtle way... and in sysadmin work, subtly wrong can easily lead to horrible
consequences.

> > SAGE is contemplating a "branding" program for such applicant
> > skill assesments (a seal of approval, really - saying that this
> > particular test does adequately assess what it claims to assess).
> > The branding decision (and creating of a Seal program) is still
> > ahead of us; the newly elected Board will need to make the final
> > decision.  Right now, we're trying to help by providing candidate
> > authors.
> 
> 	This will be an interesting program.  However,  I'd
> 	like to make sure that it avoids any appearance of
> 	impropriety by spelling out the financial implications
> 	of getting such a seal.

This could possibly be done as a percentage of profit, with a low minimum
flat fee if we feel that our brand will be requested so highly that we need
a processing fee.

Also I'd rather like to see several such Seals appear within a short
block of time of one another, so that no-one gets much mileage from trying
to claim they're the ONLY approved test (smudging us by implying their Seal
is exclusive).

How does a thing get the Good Housekeeping seal?  I know getting UL listed
costs serious bucks... but is also considered for qualifying under fire
codes, etc.

> 	In particular I'd hate to see small community college
> 	and "open source" assessment efforts closed out of this
> 	process due to licensing fees (for the SAGE seal) while
> 	I'd like to see SAGE/USENIX accrue some revenue from the
> 	process.

I agree, though see above.

> > If you're interested (either in authoring or potentially being a
> > reviewer for the test, once it's written), please let me know ASAP
> > and I'll fill in the details.
> 
> 	I'd like to be a reviewer.  I'd be happy to pose questions
> 	and suggest possible answers --- but I don't consider myself
> 	to be a Solaris expert (particularly with newer versions
> 	of Solaris ---- 2.6 and version 7).

Y'know it's a funny thing, but one doesn't always have to be an expert
to spot the difference between a genuine article and a snow job.  Though
at high jargon levels it helps.

> 	(Is it just me or does referring to "version 7" sound 
> 	incredibly "retro" in relation to modern versions of Unix)

Only 2 ahead of System V?  Actually it reminds me of when certain word
processor products have gotten renumbered, adding way too much feature
and a fair number of bugs.  But please don't take that as anything about
Solaris 7, I haven't even looked at it yet.

> 	Heather does have somewhat more experience with recent
> 	versions of Solaris --- though she doesn't like it as 
> 	much as FreeBSD or Linux.  Maybe she'll agree to participate.

This depends in fair part how much time would be required, and especially,
if any of it would be daytime.  But, I do have some thoughts about testing 
styles.  At work I admin Solaris 2.5.1 with a bunch of patches, and 2.6... 
but lots more FreeBSD 2.2.6, and occasional other OS' lying about.

  |                    Ricoh Silicon Valley ADC       star@rsv.ricoh.com
->+<-  Heather Stern   Starshine Technical Services   star@starshine.org
  |
  The price one pays for pursuing any profession, or calling, is an intimate
  knowledge of its ugly side.  -- James Baldwin


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 13 11:30:46 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA11641
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:30:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rigel.dartmouth.edu (rigel.dartmouth.edu [129.170.18.204])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA11599
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:30:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rigel.dartmouth.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by
	rigel.dartmouth.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA53761;
	Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:27:44 -0500
Message-Id: <199901131927.OAA53761@rigel.dartmouth.edu>
To: Heather Stern <star@starshine.org>
cc: jimd@starshine.org (Jim Dennis), sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Solaris experts wanted for SAGE project 
In-reply-to: (Your message of Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:28:26 EST.)
	<199901131828.KAA02324@betelgeuse.starshine.org> 
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:27:44 -0500
From: Pat Wilson <paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


 Heather Stern <star@starshine.org> writes:
>  > [ This is my original ]
>  > > Folks -
>  >  
>  > > SAGE has been approached by a company that makes employment tests
>  > > (skills tests that hiring departments can give to applicants) for
>  > > help in finding authors and reviewers.  At the moment, they're
>  > > looking for someone to author a Solaris sysadmin test (or rather,
>  > > to write good Solaris questions; they worry about the actual
>  > > "constructing the test" parts).  The job does pay, and there are
>  > > contracts to sign.
>  
>  Personally since I think some of the most important traits of sysadmin'ing
>  are not OS based, I would consider it fair if the questions were fairly
>  generic, but the best answers were Solaris (or even nits about Solaris
>  versions) specific.

You're missing the point.  The tests which are under
consideration are tests that employers give to potential
employees.  Sort of like programming tests.  The current vision
is that SAGE would "seal" only *very specific* (e.g. Solaris
knowledge) tests.  No one's arguing that one should pick a
sysadmin based (solely) on the result of the test, but if HR
departments are looking for some indication that someone with "5 
years of Solaris experience" has some experience with Solaris,
then this should be able to indicate that.

Why is SAGE getting involved?  Bascially, because (a) these
things are going on anyway, and better to have _decent_ knowledge-based 
tests out there than ones which are terrible (and remember, HR
departments can't be counted on to know the difference), and (b)
it's one way of raising our profile a bit in the corporate world.

>  I don't favor multiple-choice only tests, unless all offer a "none of the
>  above" and a an "explaining in detail" pick.  I've often been annoyed at
>  a multiple choice quiz because the 'best answer' was still wrong in a
>  subtle way... and in sysadmin work, subtly wrong can easily lead to horrible
>  consequences.

And that's what the seal is for - it indicates that the questions
(which probably _will_ be multiple guess) are good.

>  Also I'd rather like to see several such Seals appear within a short
>  block of time of one another, so that no-one gets much mileage from trying
>  to claim they're the ONLY approved test (smudging us by implying their Seal
>  is exclusive).

I don't see how that's a problem, since it's _not_ exclusive,

Pat Wilson
paw@dartmouth.edu 


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 13 14:10:11 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA18391
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:10:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from sagitta.jcpenney.com (sagitta.jcpenney.com [146.235.0.96])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA18311
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:09:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: from woodstock.jcpenney.com (woodstock.jcpenney.com [146.235.10.52])
	by sagitta.jcpenney.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA09556
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:06:57 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mutha.jcpcat.jcpenney.com (marshall.jcpcat.jcpenney.com) by
	woodstock.jcpenney.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4)
	id AA20562; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:06:54 -0600
Received: from cws201.jcpcat.jcpenney.com by mutha.jcpcat.jcpenney.com
	(SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA07079; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:06:52 -0600
Received: from localhost by cws201.jcpcat.jcpenney.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id QAA28890; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:06:52 -0600
Message-Id: <199901132206.QAA28890@cws201.jcpcat.jcpenney.com>
X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: The Great Certification Debate
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:06:51 -0600
From: Scott Williams <swill41@jcpenney.com>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I'm considering taking Sun's exams for Certified System Administrator and 
Certified Network Administrator. So, on a whim, I went down to another support 
group in our company that supports UNIX servers and apps. I asked one of the 
senior managers what he thought of Sun certification, and certification in 
general. He told me, rather bluntly, that it means absolutely nothing to him. 
Out of 15 or so UNIX admins, only one is certified. He's ranked among the 
bottom three of the group. The top admins have the same experience level, and 
even had a couple of classes. He was of the impression that just about anybody 
with "book smarts" could study and pass a test, but you have to be able to 
apply that knowledge in the real world. The certified guy could not, and the 
un-certified people could. Now I'm not saying that all certified people are 
this way!! But in this instance it is so. I do remember, years ago, I was 
working as a PC network admin, and there was this guy who worked in another 
department. He desperatly wanted to "break" into the computer field. He was an 
average user with no special skill to stand out. He studied and studied the 
Novell manuals and became a CNA with absolutely no experience at all. He 
wanted to come work with us, but none of the bosses wanted to hire him.

So, I guess it seems that anybody (almost) could buy those study books and 
memorize information to pass a test and become certified. Therin lies a 
problem. I might have studied and passed tests, but can I really do the job? I 
studied and passed accounting in college, but years later I can barely balance 
my checkbook! I can't remember that stuff because I'm not an accountant, and I 
don't use it everyday to keep it fresh and to build on it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that any certification program that SAGE 
should endorse should have some sort of internship with it. Like a 
journeyman's program. That way, upon completion, at least you have "book 
smarts" and actual real world experience.

This very thing has happened to me. I was trained by the US Army to be a 
helicopter mechanic. I spent months in school learning airframe, powerplant, 
and avionics. When I went to my fist duty station, a pilot came up to me 
outside the hanger and said "she's got a pretty bad 1 to 1 and my feet tingle 
in a left hand turn. See if you can get it fixed by lunch." Needless to say, I 
found the nearest seargent and got help. All that training and "book smarts" 
did jack squat for me. It took years to develop troubleshooting skills. It 
hasn't taken nearly as long for me in this field, because basic 
troubleshooting is a frame of mind. I guess that's the "real world" 
application that senior manager was talking about.

How can you test for that? How can you certify that? How do other managers out 
there feel about certification? Would it really make a difference to you? Or, 
is it just a "flag" on your resume to get you through HR?

Scott Williams
Sr. Systems Admin.
JCPenney



From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 13 20:20:28 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA02847
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:20:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: from minerva.psc.edu (minerva.psc.edu [128.182.61.122])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02838
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:20:22 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (ecf@localhost) by minerva.psc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with
	SMTP id XAA25773 for <sage-members@usenix.org>;
	Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:17:27 -0500
Message-Id: <199901140417.XAA25773@minerva.psc.edu>
X-Authentication-Warning: minerva.psc.edu: ecf@localhost didn't use HELO
	protocol
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: The Great Certification Debate 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:06:51 CST."
	<199901132206.QAA28890@cws201.jcpcat.jcpenney.com> 
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:17:26 -0500
From: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Scott, I couldn't'a said it better.

It's like companies that won't even interview people who
don't have a degree.  If they have a Bachelors of Arts in
Underwater BasketWeaving, that'd be ok with them because,
hey, You Have A Degree.

The person who first hired me as a sysadmin told me that he 
believed in hiring people for what they _can_ do, not what 
a piece of paper claims they've done.  His words have stuck 
with me for all these years.  I've seen cow-orkers hired who
had beautiful resumes, and then seen them fired because all 
they were capable of, it seems, was writing a good resume :).
Now that I'm in a position to interview and recommend in the
hiring process, I stick to his words when considering
candidates.

I always tell my student-slaves, it's not so much _what_
you know as  _how well_ you can learn and _who_ you know 
--not necessarily in the "networking" sense but in the 
"who will say, 'yes, s/he's one of the best learners 
I know.'"  If you can learn new things you can adapt to
any job.  If you impress people with your abilities, it
will open better doors, in my opinion, than that piece
of paper you're paying a zillion dollars a year to get.

'cause, I think, any company that won't look at someone
because of a lack of degree is only hurting themselves.
And is probably not a company worth working for in the 
first place.

That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

----------------------------------------------------------------
    ecf@psc.edu     Esther Filderman    moose+@cmu.edu
	       System Mangler & News Dominatrix  
               Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center



From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 14 06:32:46 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA26022
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 06:32:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gateway-le0.Cyanamid.COM (gateway-le0.Cyanamid.COM
	[198.138.106.253]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA25981
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 06:32:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from igate.cyanamid.com by gateway-le0.Cyanamid.COM
	via smtpd (for [131.106.3.1]) with SMTP; 14 Jan 1999 14:29:42 UT
Received: from pt.cyanamid.com ([141.173.60.184] (may be forged))
	by igate.Cyanamid.COM (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA18390
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:29:41 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <369DFFDD.3B8993F1@pt.cyanamid.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:31:57 -0500
From: John Geletej <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM>
Organization: can usually find what I'm looking for...
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Need "console switch" - any ideas?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Greetings all,

I find myself in need of a "box" that will allow several UNIX
workstations/servers to be controlled at a single
keyboard/mouse/monitor. My primary need is for SGI equipment, but I may
need to incorporate a couple of Sun SPARCStations into the mix as well.

Anybody out there know of or use such a beastie?

TIA,

-john g-


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 14 08:40:03 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA01690
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:40:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail.sonytel.be ([193.74.243.200])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA01674
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:39:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from clover.sonytel.be (clover.sonytel.be [193.74.243.198])
	by mail.sonytel.be (8.9.0/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA01726;
	Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:36:54 +0100 (MET)
From: Wim Peeters <wim@sonycom.com>
Received: (from wim@localhost) by clover.sonytel.be (8.9.0/8.8.6) id RAA06098;
	Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:36:54 +0100 (MET)
Message-Id: <199901141636.RAA06098@clover.sonytel.be>
Subject: Re: Need "console switch" - any ideas?
In-Reply-To: <369DFFDD.3B8993F1@pt.cyanamid.com> from John Geletej at "Jan 14,
	99 09:31:57 am"
To: geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM (John Geletej)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:36:54 +0100 (MET)
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

= From sage-members-owner@usenix.ORG  Thu Jan 14 17:04:27 1999
= Message-ID: <369DFFDD.3B8993F1@pt.cyanamid.com>
= Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:31:57 -0500
= From: John Geletej <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM>
= Organization: can usually find what I'm looking for...
= X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I)
= X-Accept-Language: en
= To: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.ORG>
= Subject: Need "console switch" - any ideas?
= Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.ORG
= Precedence: bulk

= Greetings all,
= 
= I find myself in need of a "box" that will allow several UNIX
= workstations/servers to be controlled at a single
= keyboard/mouse/monitor. My primary need is for SGI equipment, but I may
= need to incorporate a couple of Sun SPARCStations into the mix as well.
= 
= Anybody out there know of or use such a beastie?
Yep,

We have such a beast(s) in use for some years now,
connected to our SUN and SGI servers, atm switches,we use the same device
to control the serial ports on development boards also, works great.

so we use this to control the consoles, when installing, rebooting
after a crash etc... 

We can connect to the serial interfaces using telnet

something like:
telnet consoles 6012

connects us to serial port 12 on the device and allows us to interact with
the server's console. if you start this in a xterm you can log al in/output to a file
so you always have your console output saved in case you need them.
(In fact we run it that way, start 30 xterms to 30 ports and log in 30 files)


The machine we use is a 
Portmaster 2E from Livingstone
(30 serial ports (= 30 servers) + 1 ethernet ) 
but any box with the same functionality will do.

priceing is incredibly low compared with these VGA switch boxes ;-/

Regards

Wim
= 
= TIA,
= 
= -john g-
= 


-- 
Wim Peeters     

System Manager
SONY  Platform Software Development Center Brussels (PSDC-B)
SONY  Digital Network Solutions Europe Brussels     (DNSE-B)
Sint Stevens Woluwestraat 55 (Rue de Woluwe-Saint-Etienne)
1130 Brussel (Bruxelles), Belgium
Telephone: +32 2 724 86 42 Telefax: +32 2 726 26 86
e-mail: Wim.Peeters@sonycom.com


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 14 09:09:06 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA03002
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:09:06 -0800 (PST)
Received: from southpass.baynetworks.com (ns2.BayNetworks.COM [134.177.3.16])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA02993
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:08:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mailhost.BayNetworks.COM ([132.245.135.84])
	by southpass.baynetworks.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA14891
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:03:58 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mailhost.corpwest.BayNetworks.COM
	(scar.corpwest.baynetworks.com [134.177.1.49])
	by mailhost.BayNetworks.COM (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20006
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:04:11 -0500 (EST)
Received: from bayxbl02.corpeast.baynetworks.com
	(bayxbl02.corpeast.baynetworks.com [132.245.135.92])
	by mailhost.corpwest.BayNetworks.COM (8.8.8+Sun/BNET-97/05/05-S) with
	ESMTP id IAA16403; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:56:37 -0800 (PST)
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>
Received: by bayxbl02.corpeast.baynetworks.com with Internet Mail Service
	(5.5.2232.9) id <C8NRKY80>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:05:43 -0500
Message-ID: <4DB1CB3B0091D111807600805FA718FB02E686FA@bayxbl02.corpeast.baynetworks.com>
From: Steve Adams <stadams@baynetworks.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: The Great Certification Debate 
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:05:43 -0500
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

You started in the right direction but I feel you hit the wrong conclusion.  A degree or certification is an "indicator" that one CAN learn and be taught.  The thing that college (MIS Major) taught me was "critical thinking" skills.  Example: my Sys Design and Analysis, database design classes, etc were designed for s/w development methodologies but I learned a lot about analytical thinking and project mgt.  My data comm class spent one chapter on networking (what I do for a living) and the rest on Big Iron comm.  So...I had one chapter in 4.5 years related to what I do.

Certifications in the same vein give some indication that the person can learn and be taught.  True they may be worthless in one sense given that a person has no true experience, only head knowledge, but that comes in time.  I paid for training out of pocket to obtain a Novell CNE many years ago.  Guess what?  I spent most of my days in a Microsoft environment.  I did not use my Novell knowledge for a couple of years and even then it was sporadic.  Was it worth it?  Did my cert ever get me a job?  Would I do it again?  Yes...No....Yes...    "NO" it never got me a job directly but it did give me an advantage in the HR screening process...that could be interpreted as a "yes" I suppose but I have never been hired for a pure Novell position because my MS skills were stronger.  All things being equal, a certified person will get the call over one who is not.  It's all about getting your foot in the door anyway.  From there, it's up to you, your personality, and your ability to get !
!
thru the technical interview to land the job.

Companies are looking for people who can learn, think, and solve problems...degrees and certifications give the company something to work with.  Otherwise they have no clue as to who or what you are.

I completed the CSA cert a few years ago...again it has helped in opening doors. And I learned something in the classes that was useful.  Knowledge is good...the experience will come! 

Certifications are also good for one's own ego/self-esteem.  They are a visible acknowledgement of one's abilities.  I am very proud of my accomplishments because I am not a great "academic" so every cert process is a challenge for me.  I actually hate the testing process but it's a necessary evil.

I continue to work on certifications for several reasons.  They give me an edge over non-certified people in opening doors, they are important to my boss since he "sells" my skills to customers, with experience they also mean better $$.  Actually my degree means more $$ than my certs do.  I've worked alongside fellows with comparable skills sets but minus the degree and I blew them away with regards to $$.  I know this isn't always the case but the odds are in your favor.  

Learn, get certified, get the job, and then...re-learn it!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stephen Adams			918.633.2896
Senior Network Engineer		Nortel Networks
Field Services			Western Region
~~~~~~~~~How the World Shares Ideas~~~~~~~~~~~


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 14 11:08:14 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA08405
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:08:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from nova.botz.org (root@cm40115.cableco-op.com [208.138.40.115])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA08384
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:08:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from nova (IDENT:jbotz@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by nova.botz.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA12142;
	Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:04:28 -0800
Message-Id: <199901141904.LAA12142@nova.botz.org>
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2
To: John Geletej <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM>
CC: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Need "console switch" - any ideas? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:31:57 EST."
	<369DFFDD.3B8993F1@pt.cyanamid.com> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:04:19 -0800
From: Jurgen Botz <jurgen@botz.org>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.ORG id LAA08396
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

John Geletej wrote:
> I find myself in need of a "box" that will allow several UNIX
> workstations/servers to be controlled at a single
> keyboard/mouse/monitor. My primary need is for SGI equipment, but I may
> need to incorporate a couple of Sun SPARCStations into the mix as well.

My preferred way of doing this is to use a serial console server, as
follows:

Stick a 32 or 64 port serial card into a PC (Cyclades makes good ones),
run Linux or *BSD on the PC, and install Paul Vixie's excellent rtty
package to serve up the serial ports (available from ftp.vix.com).

The advantage of this method over a "keyboard/monitor switch" is
obviously that you can get at the serial console remotely.  The
advantages of this method over a more simple terminal-server based
solution are:

1) More than one person can be connected to a console port at a time

2) Not only can you remotely connect to console ports, but everything
   that happens on them gets logged... this is a big one because not
   infrequently when something unusual happens to a machine the only
   information about it is written to the console, and can thus be lost
   if not logged.

3) You can make it very secure by allowing connections to the console
   server only via Ssh.  By using Ssh's feature of tying a particular
   command to a particular public key you can give out keys for specific
   consoles to specific operators without giving them access to all
   consoles.

4) Since you can put several 64 port cards into a single PC (easily 3
   or 4) you can manage a LOT of devices from a single console server
   this way...

It's really a very good solution and can be used not only for workstations
but also for routers, hubs, NetApp servers, etc., etc.

The only downside of using serial consoles with Suns is that Suns have
the annoying habit of dropping into the ROM monitor when power to the
console server is lost (they interpret this as a "break" condition).
As best I can tell this is the case for any serial console hooked up
to a Sun, even a dumb terminal.

The workaround is to never shut down the power to the console server
(reboot is fine), and if you absolutely must, disconnect all the
serial cables first.  Older Suns also sometimes drop into the monitor
if you just disconnect the cable, but we've found that this can be
prevented by putting a resistor across the right pins.  Actually one
can prevent break conditions altogether by putting a resistor across a
certain set of pins, but then you can't drop into the boot monitor
anymore, so that's not desireable.  If anyone has an optimal solution
to this problem, I'd love to hear it...

- Jürgen





From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 14 11:12:56 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA08630
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:12:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: from highwire.stanford.edu (highwire.Stanford.EDU [171.64.249.40])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA08590
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:12:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from chtudor@localhost) by highwire.stanford.edu (8.8.5/8.7.1) id
	LAA07562; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:10:16 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:10:16 -0800 (PST)
From: "Chad H. Tudor" <chtudor@stanford.edu>
Reply-To: "Chad H. Tudor" <chtudor@stanford.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: sage-members-digest V1 #249
In-Reply-To: <369BC68C.5341D2CB@padova.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990114104504.24013C-100000@highwire.stanford.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


I just want to point out that I am speaking as an indivudal SysAdmin and
I'm not representing Stanford University or HighWire Press.  These are my
opinions and my opinions alone.  There was a thread I felt the need to
comment on for my own purposes nothing more.

I've gotten quite a lot of responses to my original note about Network
Appliance.  And I wanted to take a moment to respond to my colleagues.

To answer specific questions.
Yes, I am on the toasters mailing list.  I find it quite informative and
feel that it's a worthwhile venture, at one point I offered to host the
list if it ever needed a home.
Yes, we do have a support contract.  We have the premium support contract.

	My previous experience with NetApp was very positive.  I feel that
the hardware is next to infallible and I personally have never lost so
much as a byte of data, ever.
	
	My current experience with Network Appliance, say the last 8 months
still leaves me with the up most confidence in Network Appliance's
hardware.  Due to personal opinion and personal experience I still feel as
though certain members of the Sales and Support staff disappointed me and
for the most part have left a bad taste in my mount.  If anyone has
specific questions as to why I maintain this stance I would talk about it
in private email, but I don't think great detail is needed in a public
forum.
	
	As of 1815PST last evening I was able to resolve the problem and
for all intent and purposes the situation has been resolved.

	All the more frustrating is the fact that my previous experience
with Network Appliance was good and from all the responses I received,
about 20, I didn't get one "Yeah I agree, NetApp is smelly".

	Well that's it.  Sorry I didn't go into greater detail or respond
earlier, but I didn't have the time.

Regards

On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Anthony Botham wrote:

:Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:02:52 +0000
:From: Anthony Botham <asb@padova.u-net.com>
:To: Peg Schafer <peg@eecs.harvard.edu>
:Cc: "Chad H. Tudor" <chtudor@stanford.edu>,
:    Dwight Peters <dpeters@nswc.navy.mil>, sage-members@usenix.ORG
:Subject: Re: sage-members-digest V1 #249
:
:
:Well in the UK I've had mostly good experiences.   The hardware is great -
:reliable and fast - and the support excellent if you get the right
:person.      I particularly like having salesmen who really understand the
:product (technically) and how they are best used.
:
:Anthony
:
:Peg Schafer wrote:
:
:> Hello,
:>
:> I am so sorry to hear about your problems with NetApp, However,
:> I must say my experience has been quite the opposite!
:>
:> NetApp hardware is wonderful.  Lots of good things to say there.
:> I have had many good experiences with their support over the years.
:>
:> As a matter of fact, they got one of their engineers out of bed
:> at 3am (!!!  that is 3am their time) to look at a crash dump for me.
:>
:> In addition, they have called me telling me about a problem
:> they had discovered with a certain type of memory and searching their
:> records have discovered one of my systems had this memory and that they
:> were sending me new memory so NO PROBLEMS may bite me later.
:>
:> Whoa !!! I was impressed.  Sun, DEC, etc. never did that for me!
:> (ps nope I do not have premium HW support - it is the cheapest possible -
:> parts swap)
:>
:> Cheers
:> --Peg
:>
:>  -------------------------------------------------------------
:>   Peg Schafer                            peg@eecs.harvard.edu
:>   Unix Systems Manager for EECS & Robotics
:>   Division of Engineering and Applied Sciences
:>   ESL, 40 Oxford Street, EECS Computer Support, Room 112
:>   Harvard University                      voice: 617-495-4927
:>   Cambridge, MA 02138-2901                fax:   617-496-5109
:>  -------------------------------------------------------------
:

         
	 Chad H Tudor     System Administrator     Highwire Press
          chtudor@stanford.edu      http://highwire.stanford.edu





From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 14 11:34:32 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA09569
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:34:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: from sagitta.jcpenney.com (sagitta.jcpenney.com [146.235.0.96])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA09560
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:34:22 -0800 (PST)
Received: from woodstock.jcpenney.com (woodstock.jcpenney.com [146.235.10.52])
	by sagitta.jcpenney.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA15616
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:31:29 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mutha.jcpcat.jcpenney.com (marshall.jcpcat.jcpenney.com) by
	woodstock.jcpenney.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4)
	id AA18093; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:31:20 -0600
Received: from cws201.jcpcat.jcpenney.com by mutha.jcpcat.jcpenney.com
	(SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA14381; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:31:15 -0600
Received: from localhost by cws201.jcpcat.jcpenney.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id NAA00357; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:31:13 -0600
Message-Id: <199901141931.NAA00357@cws201.jcpcat.jcpenney.com>
X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Cc: swill41@cws201.@
Subject: RE: The Great Certification Debate
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:31:12 -0600
From: Scott Williams <swill41@jcpenney.com>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Stephen Adams wrote:

>You started in the right direction but I feel you hit the wrong conclusion.  
A >degree or certification is an "indicator" that one CAN learn and be taught. 
 

Just because you can learn and be taught does not mean you can do the job. 
Fully 90% of my time is spent trying to figure out what went wrong. Once 
that's done, the fix is usually easy. "Book smarts" taught me the fix, but it 
was actual experience with a mentor that taught me to diagnose. Not everyone 
can do that. Some people will never "get the big picture".


> It's all about getting your foot in the door anyway.  From there, it's up to > you, your personality, and your ability to get.....

That's what I'm afraid of with these certs. And hence my question to managers: 
When you see the certification, do you expect that person to live up to the 
image? If I met someone who was a Certified Systems Administrator, I'd expect 
the guy to be able to figure out what's wrong with sendmail, and why named 
keeps crashing when you try to do an nslookup. But without experience or 
troubleshooting skills, he'd probably just sit there flipping through books or 
calling support lines instead of going down the detective path. Now there's 
nothing wrong with that, but when the server is down, time is critical. That's 
where the experience comes in. The ability to assess the situation, figure out 
what's wrong, and impliment a solution. Or at least be able to tell support 
exactly what happened and where you are now. Having them diagnose over the 
phone takes alot of time. But hey, nobody knows everything. My favorite UNIX 
command is "man".


>I completed the CSA cert a few years ago...again it has helped in opening >
doors. And I learned something in the classes that was useful.  Knowledge is >
good...the experience will come! 

So, certification should just be a measure of academics and ability to learn, 
not mastery (or good knowledge) of what you are certified in, and the ability 
to do the job? If I hired a Certified Systems Administrator, I don't want to 
have to train him on how to do his job. I understand each shop is different 
and there is a learning curve as you pick up how they do business, but there 
are just certain skills and abilities a Certified Systems Administrator should 
have. These current programs, CSA, CNE, MCSE...on and on...are just "book 
smarts".

>Certifications are also good for one's own ego/self-esteem.  

Agreed. That's why I'm looking to Sun.


Scott Williams
Sr. Systems Administrator
JCPenney






From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 14 11:41:36 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA09852
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:41:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from minerva.psc.edu (minerva.psc.edu [128.182.61.122])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA09843
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:41:29 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (ecf@localhost) by minerva.psc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with
	SMTP id OAA28301 for <sage-members@usenix.org>;
	Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:38:34 -0500
Message-Id: <199901141938.OAA28301@minerva.psc.edu>
X-Authentication-Warning: minerva.psc.edu: ecf@localhost didn't use HELO
	protocol
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: The Great Certification Debate 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:05:43 EST."
	<4DB1CB3B0091D111807600805FA718FB02E686FA@bayxbl02.corpeast.baynetworks.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:38:33 -0500
From: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

   You started in the right direction but I feel you hit the wrong conclusion. 
   A degree or certification is an "indicator" that one CAN learn and be taught

Tripe and double tripe.  

A degree, or proof of taking a collection of "classes", is merely
showing that you have the ability to tell the teacher what s/he wants
to hear.

THe vast majority of classes I've taken through the years has been
gross regurgitation.  Not necessarily just of facts, but of "ideas"
the way the teacher wanted them to be.

For example, I once took a children's literature class where the
teacher made it clear that certain Authors were Bad Writers and the
use of any of their books in class would guarantee failure of the
class.  Mind you, this wasn't said directly; it would be highly
inappropriate for a Professor to influence your decisions.
Nevertheless, it was made _very_ clear.  This is just one example of
many.

Degrees and certifications may show that you have been exposed to
certain kinds of knowledge, but they can not show that you are a
dedicated employee, that you are capable of thinking quickly in an
emergency and, _MOST_ important to a systems administrator, that you
have common sense.

Only practical experience (and, thus, speaking with former employers)
can relay such information.

  .  The thing that college (MIS Major) taught me was "critical thinking" skill
  s.  Example: my Sys Design and Analysis, database design classes, etc were de
  signed for s/w development methodologies but I learned a lot about analytical
   thinking and project mgt.  My data comm class spent one chapter on networkin
  g (what I do for a living) and the rest on Big Iron comm.  So...I had one cha
  pter in 4.5 years related to what I do.

I hear this argument a lot.  Frankly, I think "critical thinking"
skills are like common sense: if you can't develop them all the
classes in the world will not help you.
   

[...]

  
   Companies are looking for people who can learn, think, and solve problems...
  degrees and certifications give the company something to work with.  Otherwis
  e they have no clue as to who or what you are.

Nonsense.  There are many other accomplishments out there than certificates
and degrees.  

   
   Certifications are also good for one's own ego/self-esteem.  They are a visi
  ble acknowledgement of one's abilities.  I am very proud of my accomplishment
  s because I am not a great "academic" so every cert process is a challenge fo
  r me.  I actually hate the testing process but it's a necessary evil.
   
Sorry, again, but I feel this is an ineffectual argument. If you
require a piece of paper to improve your ego, this to me suggests a
bigger problem than systems administration can help.

I am proudest of what I have _done_, my real life experiences.  Pieces
of paper that claim I have sat in a class or regurgitated information
so I could pass a test or give a teacher what they want to hear does
not prove any intelligence or ability past that of a robot.


   I continue to work on certifications for several reasons.  They give me an e
  dge over non-certified people in opening doors, they are important to my boss
   since he "sells" my skills to customers, with experience they also mean bett
  er $$.  Actually my degree means more $$ than my certs do.  I've worked along
  side fellows with comparable skills sets but minus the degree and I blew them
   away with regards to $$.  I know this isn't always the case but the odds are
   in your favor.  
   
It sounds to me that the "doors" you are opening are not ones I would
ever want opened for me.  I steadfastly maintain that a company that
requires pieces of paper to prove "worth" is less interested in
quality candidates and instead is looking for an easy way to handle
personnel work.  It's easy to hire someone who has a pretty resume
with lots of degrees and certifications.  But I can tell you horror
story after horror story of people hired who had resume's listing all
their pieces of paper -- and just how incompetent these people turned
out to be.

When job hunting I demand as much money as degreed and/or certified
people and those companies that demand to know about pretty pieces of
paper are outright rejected.  No job is worth that putting up with
that "corporate demeanor" that goes with places that demand degrees or
certificates.  Hiring people based on their actual skill sets instead
of relying on degrees & certificates takes energy.  Big companies
rarely want to bother spending their time expending actual energy.

Their loss.

   Learn, get certified, get the job, and then...re-learn it!
   
Sorry, I get the job and learn more as I go.  Saves time, eh?


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 14 11:59:02 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA10636
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:59:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: from main.techiesinc.com (main.techiesinc.com [206.245.137.10])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA10627
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:58:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from lbd@localhost)
	by main.techiesinc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05077;
	Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:58:52 -0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:58:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Leslie Dreyer Kalra <lbd@techiesinc.com>
Message-Id: <199901141958.OAA05077@main.techiesinc.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org, geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM
Subject: Re: Need "console switch" - any ideas?
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

While I'm no longer in the full-time sysadmin biz (I'm a consultant
now), I did use one of those console switch boxes for a while
several years ago. I bought it from (I think) Workstation Express
or some such catalog -- I think I recently saw one in one of those
small-size catalogs (Multi-something). When I bought it (c.1994)
it cost about $600, but I've seen them as pricey as $1300.

I'm assuming you're talking about a switch that will let you share
a Sun monitor, keyboard and mouse, not one that lets you share
dumb terminals connected to serial ports. Wim Peeters posted an
answer on that kind of switch. That didn't sound to me like what
you were looking for, though.

One caveat when using such a switch. Whenever a machine boots,
the switch has to be pointing at it, or it will boot headless,
without a keyboard or mouse. If the switch isn't set to it, it
can't see the keyboard/mouse/monitor. It will boot, but you won't
have a console. That could be a problem if you find yourself
booting machines from locations other than the console (like from
home). This is the way our switch worked; maybe they've improved
the design since then. The serial port switch might be better in
that sense.

FYI, we stopped using our switch after a few months because my
fellow admins hated it with a passion. Real estate wasn't an
issue in our machine room at the time, so the switch got mothballed.

Hope this helps...

Leslie Dreyer Kalra
Techies, Inc.
lbd@techiesinc.com

> Greetings all,
> 
> I find myself in need of a "box" that will allow several UNIX
> workstations/servers to be controlled at a single
> keyboard/mouse/monitor. My primary need is for SGI equipment, but I may
> need to incorporate a couple of Sun SPARCStations into the mix as well.
> 
> Anybody out there know of or use such a beastie?
> 
> TIA,
> 
> -john g-
> 


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 14 12:51:43 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA12823
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:51:43 -0800 (PST)
Received: from melbin.sysadmin.com.au (geoff@gateway.sysadmin.com.au
	[203.63.134.254]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12814;
	Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:51:31 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from geoff@localhost)
	by melbin.sysadmin.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14641;
	Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:49:04 +1100 (EST)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:49:04 +1100 (EST)
From: Geoff Halprin <geoff@sysadmin.com.au>
Message-Id: <199901142049.HAA14641@melbin.sysadmin.com.au>
To: sage-members@usenix.org, editor@usenix.org
Subject: SAGE-AU'99 - Call For Papers
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



				SAGE-AU'99
			The Seventh Annual Conference of
		The System Administrators Guild of Australia

			*** CALL FOR PAPERS ***

The SAGE-AU conference is the premier systems administration event in
the Asia-Pacific region. The conference offers a premium educational
forum for system administrators of all platforms and levels of
experience, and an excellent opportunity to meet, network and learn.


Dates:	Monday 5th to Friday 9th July 1999

Venue:	Novotel Brighton Beach
	Cnr The Grand Parade & Princess Street
	Brighton-le-Sands  NSW  2216

Call for Papers and Tutorials
=============================

The System Administrators Guild of Australia (SAGE-AU) will be hosting
its seventh annual conference in Sydney, July 5-9, 1999.

The annual SAGE-AU Conference, Tutorials and AGM provides a forum
for Systems Administrators, Systems Managers, Network Administrators,
Developers of Systems Administration Software and Managers of such groups
to meet and share their knowledge and experiences, and is the premier
event for System Administrators in the Asia-Pacific region.

SAGE-AU'99 is hereby calling for papers and tutorial presentations on any
and all topics related to system administration.

Deadlines
=========
Conference paper Summary Abstracts:	Friday 12th February 1999
Submission of tutorial Abstracts:	Friday 12th February 1999
Authors Notified:			Monday 27th February 1999
Conference paper Extended Abstracts:	Friday 2nd  April    1999
Works In Progress (WIP) Abstracts:	Friday 21st May      1999
Final papers and tutorial notes:	Friday 4th  June     1999


How to Submit
=============
This year's conference will consist of three types of papers, and
tutorials:
  a) Invited Talks
  b) Refereed Papers
  c) Works In Progress
  d) Tutorials

Timeslots are available for 15, 30, 45 and 60 minute presentations.
5-10 minutes should be reserved for questions from the audience.

15 minute timeslots are less formal and are to allow people to talk briefly
about some topic of interest or problem without having to prepare a formal
paper ("Work in Progress"). WIP submissions should be made to the programme
committee as per the deadlines mentioned above.

People presenting a 30+ minute talk will receive free conference registration.

People presenting a 15 minute talk will receive a 50% discount on the
conference registration fees.

If you wish to present a paper, send a brief abstract ("Summary Abstract")
to the address below by the due date. Please indicate whether you are asking
for a 15, 30, 45 or 60 minute timeslot.

Summary Abstracts should be 100 -- 200 words in length. Papers should have a
technical orientation and should not contain advertising.

Authors will be notified of whether their submission has been accepted or
rejected.

Authors of Refereed Papers will be required to submit an Extended Abstract
of between 3 and 5 pages by the date specified. This should be sufficient
to define the structure of the paper, the major points covered and the areas
which require further work. The Programme Committee will assist authors in
organising their work to help ensure the quality of papers and preparedness
of authors.

Authors giving 30+ minute presentations will be expected to provide a
final "camera ready" paper for inclusion in the conference proceedings.

The Programme Committee will also be preparing guidelines to assist authors
in planning their presentations. We encourage those inexperienced in public
speaking to trial their papers at the local chapter meetings in order to
assist with conference preparation.

Tutorials
=========

Tutorial sessions will be either half day or full day in duration. People
wishing to present tutorials should submit an abstract of the material
they wish to present, who their intended audience is, and an indication
of whether they require a half day or a full day timeslot. Tutorials
should be run in lecture format.

Suggested topics include:

  Computer and Network Security/Network Authentication
  PC/Apple/Unix/Mainframe Interoperability
  NFS/Automount/AMD Configuration and Operation
  Perl/Java/Tcl/Python
  Sendmail/Qmail/smapd/Anti-SPAM
  WWW Cache/Router Config/Firewall Setup/Squid
  NT/Win95 Administration


Tutorial presenters will be paid $500 for a half day tutorial and $1000
for a full day tutorial.  SAGE-AU will reimburse tutorial presenters all
reasonable costs of handout materials or will print them on your behalf.

As with papers, tutorials should have a technical orientation and should
not contain advertising.

Conference Details
==================

SAGE-AU'99 will be a 5 day conference running from Monday 5th July to
Friday 9th July, 1999.

The first three days (Monday through Wednesday) will be dedicated to
tutorials on tools and techniques to aid system administration.

The AGM will be held at the end of the fourth day (Thursday 8th).
All other times will be allocated to presentations or discussions.

A conference dinner will be held on the Thursday evening.

The conference will feature a small trade show on the third and fourth days,
focusing on system administration tools and information. 


Exhibition/Trade Show
=====================

On the third and fourth days of the conference (Wednesday and Thursday)
SAGE-AU'99 will host a small, technically orientated trade show focusing
on system administration tools and information.

If you or your company are interested in participating in the trade show
please contact the organisers for details.

Registration
============

Conference registration includes one ticket to the Conference Dinner and
Conference and Tutorial registration includes Lunch and Refreshments.
Additional tickets to the Conference Dinner may be purchased.

Non-members who register for SAGE-AU'99 at the non-member rate and successfully 
apply for membership of SAGE-AU will have their first year's membership fee 
waived.

Registration forms for tutorials will be available approximately six weeks
before the conference date.

Early Registration is considered when registration form and payment has
reached SAGE-AU by COB on 21st May 1999.

Travel
======

To encourage interstate attendees, SAGE-AU offers members a travel discount
off registration for interstate travellers (Tas/WA/SA/NT).

Addresses
=========

Send all enquiries regarding the conference as well as 

Please submit all tutorial and paper abstracts to:
	papers@sage-au.org.au

Media requests for information and general conference enquiries should
be directed to:
	Geoff Halprin
	SAGE-AU'99 Conference Chair
	Email: conference@sage-au.org.au

Requests for general information about SAGE-AU and membership
applications should be addressed to:

WWW:   http://www.sage-au.org.au/
Email: secretary@sage-au.org.au
Fax:   0500 544 488 (Attn: David Conran)
Snail: Secretary
       SAGE-AU
       GPO Box 2974
       Sydney NSW 2001
       Australia

WWW Page
========

A web page for the conference is http://www.sage-au.org.au/conf.html


Discliamer: This information is correct at time of printing, however
SAGE-AU reserves the right to modify this information at any time.
The Web site will always contain the most up-to-date copy of all
conference information.

END


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 14 13:28:45 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA14352
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:28:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (dirty.research.bell-labs.com
	[204.178.16.6]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA14317
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:28:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: from research.research.bell-labs.com ([135.104.1.3]) by dirty;
	Thu Jan 14 16:25:15 EST 1999
Received: from tango.research.bell-labs.com ([135.104.75.12]) by research;
	Thu Jan 14 16:25:13 EST 1999
Received: from tango.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by tango.research.bell-labs.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA02588
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:25:14 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199901142125.QAA02588@tango.research.bell-labs.com>
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
To: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Need "console switch" - any ideas? 
From: Tom Reingold <tommy@bell-labs.com>
X-Uri: http://www.bell-labs.com/user/tommy
In-Reply-To: Message from Jurgen Botz <jurgen@botz.org> 
	of Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:04:19 PST
	<199901141904.LAA12142@nova.botz.org> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:25:14 -0500
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.ORG id NAA14318
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Sometimes, a serial console switch won't do the job.

We use Rose switches from Rose electronics.  They can deal with PC's, 
SGI's, and Suns, all with the same monitor and keyboard!

Like Wim and Jurgen, we generally prefer serial consoles and a unix 
system to tie them all together, but we have NT systems which don't 
have that option.





From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 14 13:39:02 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA14745
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:39:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: from FNAL.FNAL.Gov (fnal.fnal.gov [131.225.9.8])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA14711
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:38:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bel-kwinth.fnal.gov ("port 20122"@bel-kwinth.fnal.gov)
	by FNAL.FNAL.GOV (PMDF V5.1-12 #3998)
	with ESMTP id <01J6JB0CD1NI0000JI@FNAL.FNAL.GOV> for
	sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:36:19 -0600 CDT
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:35:59 -0600 (EST)
From: "Marc W. Mengel" <mengel@fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: Need "console switch" - any ideas?
In-reply-to: <199901141904.LAA12142@nova.botz.org>
To: Jurgen Botz <jurgen@botz.org>
Cc: John Geletej <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM>,
	SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Message-id: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9901141530410.17795-100000@bel-kwinth.fnal.gov>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Jurgen Botz wrote:

> 
> My preferred way of doing this is to use a serial console server, as
> follows:
> 
> Stick a 32 or 64 port serial card into a PC (Cyclades makes good ones),
> run Linux or *BSD on the PC, and install Paul Vixie's excellent rtty
> package to serve up the serial ports (available from ftp.vix.com).

The other good option, software-wise is "conserver", either the original
OSU version, or the more featureful Purdue rewrite at
  ftp://ftp.physics.purdue.edu/pub/pundits/README.html
We've started using it quite heavily under Red Hat linux here at
Fermilab.  It has useful features like console logging, and in the
latest release, an interface to serial-port smart power strips, so
you can acutally power cycle machines remotely...

Marc



From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 14 14:48:51 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17657
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:48:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: from post6.inre.asu.edu (post6.inre.asu.edu [129.219.110.87])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA17647
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:48:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: from general2.asu.edu by asu.edu (PMDF V5.1-12 #24133)
	with ESMTP id <01J6JBDLRMWU8Y7CGT@asu.edu> for sage-members@usenix.ORG;
	Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:47:00 MST
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by general2.asu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA26108; Thu,
	14 Jan 1999 15:46:09 -0700 (MST)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:46:09 -0700 (MST)
From: LuftHans <LuftHans@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: The Great Certification Debate
In-reply-to: <199901132206.QAA28890@cws201.jcpcat.jcpenney.com>
X-Sender: lufthans@general2.asu.edu
To: Scott Williams <swill41@jcpenney.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Message-id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990114145113.20864B-100000@general2.asu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Scott Williams wrote:

> I'm considering taking Sun's exams for Certified System Administrator and 
> Certified Network Administrator. So, on a whim, I went down to another support 
> group in our company that supports UNIX servers and apps. I asked one of the 
> senior managers what he thought of Sun certification, and certification in 
> general. He told me, rather bluntly, that it means absolutely nothing to him. 
> Out of 15 or so UNIX admins, only one is certified. He's ranked among the 
> bottom three of the group. The top admins have the same experience level, and 
> even had a couple of classes. He was of the impression that just about anybody 
> with "book smarts" could study and pass a test, but you have to be able to 
> apply that knowledge in the real world. The certified guy could not, and the 
> un-certified people could. Now I'm not saying that all certified people are 
> this way!! But in this instance it is so. I do remember, years ago, I was 
> working as a PC network admin, and there was this guy who worked in another 
> department. He desperatly wanted to "break" into the computer field. He was an 
> average user with no special skill to stand out. He studied and studied the 
> Novell manuals and became a CNA with absolutely no experience at all. He 
> wanted to come work with us, but none of the bosses wanted to hire him.
> 
> So, I guess it seems that anybody (almost) could buy those study books and 
> memorize information to pass a test and become certified. Therin lies a 

This is my impression with most of the computer related certs. Any idiot can
pass most of them, then groups end up with idiots running their systems.
Several of my friends have gone the classes/cert route and as soon as tehy get
exposed to anyone who knows how things really work they realize they've only
learned propaganda. There might be exceptions. The cisco cert has gotten
praise here. The only person I know who's ever talked about taking a cisco
class walked cold into their advanced class having never worked on routers
before and the instructors had to get help answering his questions. He has the
analytical and troubleshooting skills, which is the important part. I know
certified, experienced router admins who have learned from him and many more
who would do well to do so. That's a single instance. Doesn't cover
everything. He has 20-30 years experience, most of which was coding operating
systems. I don't imagine lack of certification would ever be a problem for
him.

> problem. I might have studied and passed tests, but can I really do the job? I 
> studied and passed accounting in college, but years later I can barely balance 
> my checkbook! I can't remember that stuff because I'm not an accountant, and I 
> don't use it everyday to keep it fresh and to build on it.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say is that any certification program that SAGE 
> should endorse should have some sort of internship with it. Like a 
> journeyman's program. That way, upon completion, at least you have "book 
> smarts" and actual real world experience.

I agree with this, but do you know of any journeyman programs in the US? It
would be easy to setup in Germany. Companies are required provide inernship
opportunities. A friend of mine got snowed in with a non-working 386 and no
docs. He figured out how to fix it and taught himself dos and win31. Since
then he's taught himself 95 and and NT and taken classes for digital unix
sys_adm. No one will hire him because he doesn't have experience. I don't even
know of places hiring entry level with no experience. Where's he supposed to
get this internship. He uses linux at home, but doesn't have time to work,
take further classes and admin boxes for free just to get experience. This is
a somewhat extreme case of one of the many people I know trying to change
career fields. They hit the same prob as you Novell guy. How do they get
experience if they can't get an entry level job? I was able to live off
minimum wage and work for the university to get started. That's not an option
for him.

> This very thing has happened to me. I was trained by the US Army to be a 
> helicopter mechanic. I spent months in school learning airframe, powerplant, 
> and avionics. When I went to my fist duty station, a pilot came up to me 
> outside the hanger and said "she's got a pretty bad 1 to 1 and my feet tingle 
> in a left hand turn. See if you can get it fixed by lunch." Needless to say, I 
> found the nearest seargent and got help. All that training and "book smarts" 

I ignored the pilots and changed out what the Crew Chiefs told me had to be
fixed :).

> did jack squat for me. It took years to develop troubleshooting skills. It 
> hasn't taken nearly as long for me in this field, because basic 
> troubleshooting is a frame of mind. I guess that's the "real world" 
> application that senior manager was talking about.

The entry level positions need to be based on whether or not the applicant is
technically oriented and can pick up the necessary skills through ojt. Having
education should be a major plus, maybe even required, but you can't require
experience for the bottom tier. Not every company needs to have bottom tier,
but someone has to. Would you have liked the army to tell you you weren't
allowed to work on the birds just because you didn't have any experience?

Beyond the entry level position many of the cert concerns might be more valid,
though I still think today's certs are for people who can't do it and need a
piece of paper to try to prove their worth. I'd prefer SAGE be more concerned
with attracting competent people to sys_adm and with providing informational
resources for sys_adm, which is why I'm a member :).

> How can you test for that? How can you certify that? How do other managers out 
> there feel about certification? Would it really make a difference to you? Or, 
> is it just a "flag" on your resume to get you through HR?

I don't feel a cert would bring me much in the US. If I were to go back to
Germany it might prove useful. I think this is something else SAGE should keep
in mind. Different countries have different cultural and legal requirements.

ciao,

der.hans

> Scott Williams
> Sr. Systems Admin.
> JCPenney
> 
> 

# +++++++++++=================================+++++++++++ #
#                   LuftHans@asu.edu                      #
#            http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/              #
#           Practice socially consious hedonism,          #
#        do whatever you want as long as it doesn't       #
#              hurt anyone else. - der.hans               #
# ===========+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=========== #



From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 14 16:16:45 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA21533
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:16:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from post5.inre.asu.edu (post5.inre.asu.edu [129.219.110.86])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21519
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:16:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from general2.asu.edu by asu.edu (PMDF V5.1-12 #24133)
	with ESMTP id <01J6JEGJXU168Y7CPF@asu.edu> for sage-members@usenix.ORG;
	Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:14:53 MST
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by general2.asu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA03619; Thu,
	14 Jan 1999 17:14:02 -0700 (MST)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:14:02 -0700 (MST)
From: LuftHans <LuftHans@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Need "console switch" - any ideas?
In-reply-to: <199901141904.LAA12142@nova.botz.org>
X-Sender: lufthans@general2.asu.edu
To: Jurgen Botz <jurgen@botz.org>
Cc: John Geletej <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM>,
	SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Message-id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990114170119.20864G-100000@general2.asu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by usenix.ORG id QAA21525
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Jurgen Botz wrote:

> John Geletej wrote:
> > I find myself in need of a "box" that will allow several UNIX
> > workstations/servers to be controlled at a single
> > keyboard/mouse/monitor. My primary need is for SGI equipment, but I may
> > need to incorporate a couple of Sun SPARCStations into the mix as well.
> 
> My preferred way of doing this is to use a serial console server, as
> follows:
> 
> Stick a 32 or 64 port serial card into a PC (Cyclades makes good ones),
> run Linux or *BSD on the PC, and install Paul Vixie's excellent rtty
> package to serve up the serial ports (available from ftp.vix.com).

This looks like fun :). I think I'd prefer cyclades over what we have.

We do something similar with xlogics terminal servers, which have their own
view of how rs232 works, and a package similar to rtty. Multiple people can be
on the terminal at one time, which is usually annoying and everything gets
logged. It works really well. I do everything but powerdown/up remotely.
Reboots and even machine checks for memory errors don't require anything but
an internal network connection.

While we don't have am many probs with the Suns as described below, they do
have some display probs over a serial terminal at the f/w level. 

I use a cybex kvm for my "personal" boxes in my cube. It's been working quite
well for me, but I don't put it to too much stress. Only x86 linux, ppc linux
and aix.

ciao,

der.hans

> The advantage of this method over a "keyboard/monitor switch" is
> obviously that you can get at the serial console remotely.  The
> advantages of this method over a more simple terminal-server based
> solution are:
> 
> 1) More than one person can be connected to a console port at a time
> 
> 2) Not only can you remotely connect to console ports, but everything
>    that happens on them gets logged... this is a big one because not
>    infrequently when something unusual happens to a machine the only
>    information about it is written to the console, and can thus be lost
>    if not logged.
> 
> 3) You can make it very secure by allowing connections to the console
>    server only via Ssh.  By using Ssh's feature of tying a particular
>    command to a particular public key you can give out keys for specific
>    consoles to specific operators without giving them access to all
>    consoles.
> 
> 4) Since you can put several 64 port cards into a single PC (easily 3
>    or 4) you can manage a LOT of devices from a single console server
>    this way...
> 
> It's really a very good solution and can be used not only for workstations
> but also for routers, hubs, NetApp servers, etc., etc.
> 
> The only downside of using serial consoles with Suns is that Suns have
> the annoying habit of dropping into the ROM monitor when power to the
> console server is lost (they interpret this as a "break" condition).
> As best I can tell this is the case for any serial console hooked up
> to a Sun, even a dumb terminal.
> 
> The workaround is to never shut down the power to the console server
> (reboot is fine), and if you absolutely must, disconnect all the
> serial cables first.  Older Suns also sometimes drop into the monitor
> if you just disconnect the cable, but we've found that this can be
> prevented by putting a resistor across the right pins.  Actually one
> can prevent break conditions altogether by putting a resistor across a
> certain set of pins, but then you can't drop into the boot monitor
> anymore, so that's not desireable.  If anyone has an optimal solution
> to this problem, I'd love to hear it...
> 
> - Jürgen
> 
> 
> 
> 

# +++++++++++=================================+++++++++++ #
#                   LuftHans@asu.edu                      #
#            http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/              #
#           Practice socially consious hedonism,          #
#        do whatever you want as long as it doesn't       #
#              hurt anyone else. - der.hans               #
# ===========+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=========== #



From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 14 16:50:49 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA22926
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:50:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail2.desupernet.net (qmailr@mail2.desupernet.net
	[204.249.184.37]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA22916
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:50:43 -0800 (PST)
Received: (qmail 10419 invoked from network); 15 Jan 1999 00:40:35 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO homer.ben-tech.com) (@205.246.86.197)
	by mail2.desupernet.net with SMTP; 15 Jan 1999 00:40:35 -0000
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:38:12 +0000 (GMT)
From: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
To: sage-members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Handling users on multiple systems
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990111173711.827A-100000@homer.ben-tech.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I am about to get the fortunate, or unfortunate :), privilege to be part
of a core system change over at our site.  We will be replacing our rs6000
with 2 HP9000 systems. (1 for data, 1 for RF, each mirrored to the other,
etc).  We also have, from our accounting/HR departments, a NT network
developing as well.  Now add in our four other remote sites, and you can
see that we are definitely multi-platform.  What is starting to happen is
that users are winding up with several passwords and account names for
each of the different systems.

-- Main database system
-- RF system (Radio Frequency picking/loading/tracking)
-- e-mail server
-- pc/NT accounts
-- Time & Attendance system (time clocks)
-- Human resource/Payroll (mostly accounting users)

Is this normal to find users at a site having this many
accounts/passwords?  I have tried to coordinate all of the account names
to be the same thus leaving the passwords to be different, however some,
well several, of the users still have trouble keeping it all straight.  I
thought of writing some routine that would synchronize the account names
and passwords across all of the various servers, but that would/could also
weaken the security of the site. (one password leaks all).

Any ideas, thoughts, or tools?

Thanks in advance,
	Bennett

+------------------------------------------------+
| System analysis is the art of find exactly the |
| right wrench to pound in the correct screw.    |
+------------------------------------------------+



From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 14 21:11:28 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA02426
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:11:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA02417
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:11:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: by hustle.rahul.net with UUCP id AA13306
	(5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for sage-members@usenix.org);
	Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:08:55 -0800
Received: from canopus.starshine.org (canopus.starshine.org [192.168.64.3])
	by antares.starshine.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA30965;
	Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:17:46 -0800
Received: from canopus.starshine.org (jimd@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by canopus.starshine.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA14516;
	Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:17:45 -0800
Message-Id: <199901150417.UAA14516@canopus.starshine.org>
To: Jurgen Botz <jurgen@botz.org>
Cc: John Geletej <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM>,
	SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
X-Mailer: MH 8.6.3
Subject: Re: Need "console switch" - any ideas? 
In-Reply-To: <199901141904.LAA12142@nova.botz.org> 
	Message Apparently From Jurgen Botz <jurgen@botz.org> 
	Dated Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:04:19 PST.
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:17:45 -0800
From: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


 
> John Geletej wrote:
>> I find myself in need of a "box" that will allow several UNIX
>> workstations/servers to be controlled at a single
>> keyboard/mouse/monitor. My primary need is for SGI equipment, but I may
>> need to incorporate a couple of Sun SPARCStations into the mix as well.
> 
> My preferred way of doing this is to use a serial console server, as
> follows:
> 
> Stick a 32 or 64 port serial card into a PC (Cyclades makes good ones),
> run Linux or *BSD on the PC, and install Paul Vixie's excellent rtty
> package to serve up the serial ports (available from ftp.vix.com).

	rtty looks interesting --- but it won't compile
	under my copy of Linux:

/usr/local/src/rtty/rtty.c:218: undefined reference to `FD_ZERO'
/usr/local/src/rtty/rtty.c:219: undefined reference to `FD_SET'
/usr/local/src/rtty/rtty.c:220: undefined reference to `FD_SET'
/usr/local/src/rtty/rtty.c:242: undefined reference to `FD_ISSET'
/usr/local/src/rtty/rtty.c:252: undefined reference to `FD_ISSET'

	.... I see that macros of the form __FD_* are defined in 
	/usr/include/gnu/types.h so creating a "mytypes.h" with
	a set of #defines (which merely fill FD_* with __FD_*)
	seems to get it to compile.

	I don't have time to test that "solution" right now
	--- but Paul does say that he only expects it to work on
	BSD in his notes.  

	The README contains this gem:

``
Since there's no documentation, there's no harm in telling you that the
"console" script just runs "rtty" with some obscure arguments to grease
its skids.  While in "rtty", a "~" after a carriage return (\r or 0x0D)
is magic; "~?" will explain the magic to you somewhat tersely.  The source
code will explain it in more detail.
''

	... so anyone that's planning on trying this under Linux
	may need to to a bit of extra work.
 
> The only downside of using serial consoles with Suns is that Suns have
> the annoying habit of dropping into the ROM monitor when power to the
> console server is lost (they interpret this as a "break" condition).
> As best I can tell this is the case for any serial console hooked up
> to a Sun, even a dumb terminal.
	
	It is.  It's happened to me many times.  (Seems silly to
	*have* to put your rarely used serial console terminal
	on your UPS --- but that's Sun's idea of a joke on 
	all of us).  What were those little Stanford boys thinking?

 
> The workaround is to never shut down the power to the console server
> (reboot is fine), and if you absolutely must, disconnect all the
> serial cables first.  Older Suns also sometimes drop into the monitor
> if you just disconnect the cable, but we've found that this can be
> prevented by putting a resistor across the right pins.  Actually one
> can prevent break conditions altogether by putting a resistor across a
> certain set of pins, but then you can't drop into the boot monitor
> anymore, so that's not desireable.  If anyone has an optimal solution
> to this problem, I'd love to hear it...
 
> - Jürgen

	I heard a rumor that one can cut a trace on older
	Sun motherboards to disable this "feature" --- and
	I've heard other rumors that there might be an OpenBoot
	(FCODE) nvram setting that can be tweaked.  However,
	I don't use headless Suns often enough to worry about it.

--
Jim Dennis  (800) 938-4078		consulting@starshine.org
Proprietor, Starshine Technical Services:  http://www.starshine.org


From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 14 22:43:33 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA05773
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:43:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from blob.unixshaman.com (pseudo.unixshaman.com [209.232.122.115])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA05758
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:43:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from bl@localhost) by blob.unixshaman.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id WAA01264
	for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:41:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Brett Lemoine <bl@unixshaman.com>
Message-Id: <199901150641.WAA01264@blob.unixshaman.com>
Subject: Re: Need "console switch" - any ideas?
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:41:20 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <199901150417.UAA14516@canopus.starshine.org> from "Jim Dennis"
	at Jan 14, 99 08:17:45 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME5a]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Jim Dennis spake thusly:
> 
> > The only downside of using serial consoles with Suns is that Suns have
> > the annoying habit of dropping into the ROM monitor when power to the
> > console server is lost (they interpret this as a "break" condition).
> > As best I can tell this is the case for any serial console hooked up
> > to a Sun, even a dumb terminal.
> 	
> 	It is.  It's happened to me many times.  (Seems silly to
> 	*have* to put your rarely used serial console terminal
> 	on your UPS --- but that's Sun's idea of a joke on 
> 	all of us).  What were those little Stanford boys thinking?

Sun Consulting has software for Solaris 2.6 and earlier that permits
the changing of the character interpreted as the 'break'.  It's not
cheap, but worth the price of not watching a couple of hundred Sun
systems halt 'cause some idiot tripped over a power strip.  Ask
your Sun sales rep about Sun Consulting's ZSBRK package.

bl
-- 
//= Brett G. Lemoine ====================================================\\
|| Unix Shaman Consulting   |"There are two major products that come out  ||
|| Core Unix System Services| of Berkeley:         LSD and UNIX.          ||
|| Sr. Systems Administrator| We don't believe this to be a coincidence." ||
|| bl@unixshaman.com        |                       -- Jeremy S. Anderson ||
|+-------------------------+----------------------------------------------+|
\\ PGP Key Fingerprint: 68 A1 2A 2D 82 CE E9 70  5B 80 D1 11 EC F3 FB 85 //



From sage-members-owner  Thu Jan 14 23:37:59 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA07773
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:37:59 -0800 (PST)
Received: from anchor.cs.colorado.edu (anchor.cs.colorado.edu [128.138.242.1])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA07764
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:37:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: from anchor.cs.colorado.edu (evi@localhost.cs.colorado.edu
	[127.0.0.1])
	by anchor.cs.colorado.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA26889;
	Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:34:53 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199901150734.AAA26889@anchor.cs.colorado.edu>
To: Dan Marner <dmarner@marada-corp.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org, evi@anchor.cs.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: Teaching System Administration with limited hands-on 
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:34:52 -0700
From: Evi Nemeth <evi@anchor.cs.colorado.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

for my sysadmin class this semester i went to the boneyard
and found 25 sun ipc type machines.  stuck them in a rack
with no monitors, installed openbsd (sunos or linux work too)
and have 2 students/machine.  can't you find some old hardware
laying around.

-evi


From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 15 06:46:10 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA24200
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 06:46:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: from atlxchange.talus.net (atlxchange.talus.net [38.212.192.5])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA24191
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 06:46:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: by atlxchange.atl.talus.net with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
	id <CKCQ16FS>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:40:20 -0500
Message-ID: <5DDC98303A22D21180D800A0C9A92FEA1D54BD@atlxchange.atl.talus.net>
From: Matt Birkner <mbirkner@talus.net>
To: "'John Geletej'" <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM>, SAGE Members
	<sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: RE: Need "console switch" - any ideas?
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:40:18 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

We've had good luck with the kvm switch from Rose Electronics
(www.rosel.com) for our Sun systems.  The only "gotcha" with our
switch is that if you want to use in across multiple platforms at
least one system connected has to be a PC to provide a console which
can configure the box for to handle the other systems.  At least
that's my understanding if you're using the switch for a mix of Sun's
and some other OS.  They do have a Sun only version that works great
(which is what we're actually using).

We've also had good luck with Cybex kvm switches, but they get pricey
when you add in their Sun-specific cables.  The price isn't too bad
for standard VGA/PS2/Serial connections.

Matt

========================================================================

Matt Birkner                  "If they are the pillars of our
community,
Systems Administrator         We better to keep a sharp eye on the
roof"
Talus
404-763-5454 x416                        
mbirkner@talus.net                [Standard Views Disclaimer applies]

========================================================================




> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Geletej [mailto:geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM]
> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 1999 9:32 AM
> To: SAGE Members
> Subject: Need "console switch" - any ideas?
> 
> 
> Greetings all,
> 
> I find myself in need of a "box" that will allow several UNIX
> workstations/servers to be controlled at a single
> keyboard/mouse/monitor. My primary need is for SGI equipment, 
> but I may
> need to incorporate a couple of Sun SPARCStations into the 
> mix as well.
> 
> Anybody out there know of or use such a beastie?
> 
> TIA,
> 
> -john g-
> 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>

iQA/AwUBNp9UFkzqZ2B7hAbiEQLngwCfQ6BZCVg4vOuKqb/a/fPufv1hs30AoPax
cQOXsGhMV2vvnhw+NdAsWv3J
=nx5A
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 15 07:24:00 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA25647
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:24:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: from netcom5.netcom.com (jdetke@netcom5.netcom.com [192.100.81.113])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA25638
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:23:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from jdetke@localhost)
	by netcom5.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id HAA18406; 
	Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:21:28 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:21:28 -0800 (PST)
From: "John F. Detke" <jdetke@netcom.com>
Subject: RE: Need "console switch" - any ideas?
To: Matt Birkner <mbirkner@talus.net>
cc: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
In-Reply-To: <5DDC98303A22D21180D800A0C9A92FEA1D54BD@atlxchange.atl.talus.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9901150756.A17952-0100000@netcom5>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


I've been looking for a KVM for home, last time I looked they were a bit 
pricey. But yesterday I tripped over the Cybex switchview, 4 port version 
for $200 (www.warehouse.com) *and* it doesn't appear to require special 
cables. It also claims to handle high-res graphics, 1600x1200x85Hz. Has 
anyone used this?

Please email me if you have, I'll summarize if there's interest.

--
John F. Detke		| "Daddy, I'm the kid,
jdetke@netcom.com 	|  I don't pay for anything!"
Felton, Ca		|  -- Kyle, philosopher-kid



From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 15 07:44:43 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA26412
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:44:43 -0800 (PST)
Received: from michelob.wustl.edu (michelob.wustl.edu [128.252.130.10])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26398
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:44:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (hargiss@localhost) by michelob.wustl.edu (AIX4.3/UCB
	8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA18726; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:43:00 -0600
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:42:59 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jeff \"Forest Creature\" Hargiss" <hargiss@michelob.wustl.edu>
To: John Geletej <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM>
cc: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Need "console switch" - any ideas?
In-Reply-To: <369DFFDD.3B8993F1@pt.cyanamid.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96.990115093935.2514D-100000@michelob.wustl.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

we are using the 'cybex autoboot commander 4xp'

this even has speaker & mike jacks :)

ours can accept 12 hosts.

serial mouse port
ps/2 port
ps/2 keyboard
mac keyboard
sun keyboard
vga [as in 15pin] connector

the machine does hi-res, but i do not know the parameters beyond that.

this has been in service for a few years and has had no problems.



On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, John Geletej wrote:

> Greetings all,
> 
> I find myself in need of a "box" that will allow several UNIX
> workstations/servers to be controlled at a single
> keyboard/mouse/monitor. My primary need is for SGI equipment, but I may
> need to incorporate a couple of Sun SPARCStations into the mix as well.
> 
> Anybody out there know of or use such a beastie?
> 
> TIA,
> 
> -john g-
> 


---
forest creature, network druid
www.hargiss.com
---



From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 15 07:46:33 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA26441
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:46:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from suod.cs.colorado.edu (suod.cs.colorado.edu [128.138.192.205])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26427
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:46:29 -0800 (PST)
Received: from suod.cs.colorado.edu (mcginley@localhost.cs.colorado.edu
	[127.0.0.1])
	by suod.cs.colorado.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id IAA19964;
	Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:43:34 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199901151543.IAA19964@suod.cs.colorado.edu>
To: Evi Nemeth <evi@anchor.cs.colorado.edu>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Teaching System Administration with limited hands-on 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:34:52 MST."
	<199901150734.AAA26889@anchor.cs.colorado.edu> 
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:43:34 -0700
From: Lynda McGinley <mcginley@suod.cs.colorado.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


--------

    for my sysadmin class this semester i went to the boneyard
    and found 25 sun ipc type machines.  stuck them in a rack
    with no monitors, installed openbsd (sunos or linux work too)
    and have 2 students/machine.  can't you find some old hardware
    laying around.
    
    -evi

---------------
you did?


From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 15 07:50:42 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA26626
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:50:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: from nova.botz.org (root@cm40115.cableco-op.com [208.138.40.115])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26617
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:50:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: from nova (IDENT:jbotz@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by nova.botz.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA19767;
	Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:48:13 -0800
Message-Id: <199901151548.HAA19767@nova.botz.org>
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2
To: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>
Cc: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Need "console switch" - any ideas? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:17:45 PST."
	<199901150417.UAA14516@canopus.starshine.org> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:48:13 -0800
From: Jurgen Botz <jurgen@botz.org>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.ORG id HAA26618
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Jim Dennis wrote:
> 	rtty looks interesting --- but it won't compile
> 	under my copy of Linux:
> 
> /usr/local/src/rtty/rtty.c:218: undefined reference to `FD_ZERO'
>[...]
> 	--- but Paul does say that he only expects it to work on
> 	BSD in his notes.  

Works fine for me under Linux.  I remember having a problem 
similar to the above at one point in the past and fixing it with
a bit of header munging, but under RedHat 5.2 it seems to compile
out of the box anyway.  And it definitely works, I have it running
under Linux in two machine rooms with a total of about 160 serial
ports...

- Jürgen





From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 15 10:21:24 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA03152
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:21:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bytor.rush.net (lynch@bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA03140
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:21:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost)
	by bytor.rush.net (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06488;
	Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:18:18 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:18:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Lynch <lynch@rush.net>
To: Jurgen Botz <jurgen@botz.org>
cc: John Geletej <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM>,
	SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Need "console switch" - any ideas? 
In-Reply-To: <199901141904.LAA12142@nova.botz.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.05.9901151314270.327-100000@bytor.rush.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by usenix.ORG id KAA03144
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

There was actually a presentation at the last USENIX technical conference
about how to use FreeBSD as a console server, while not particularly
challenging, its probably a good place to point people asking this very
question. I believe the person who presented the solution was Branford
Matheson, but don;t quote me on that.

(the use of "watch(8)" I remember was a big part of it, without the need
for Vixie's rtty)

___________________________________________________________________________

Pat Lynch						lynch@rush.net
Systems Administrator					Rush Networking

Remark made by Bertrand Meyer (inventor of the Eiffel language) at a
panel discussion at OOPSLA '89:

        "COBOL programmers are destined to code COBOL for the
         rest of their lives, and thereafter."

___________________________________________________________________________

On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Jurgen Botz wrote:

> John Geletej wrote:
> > I find myself in need of a "box" that will allow several UNIX
> > workstations/servers to be controlled at a single
> > keyboard/mouse/monitor. My primary need is for SGI equipment, but I may
> > need to incorporate a couple of Sun SPARCStations into the mix as well.
> 
> My preferred way of doing this is to use a serial console server, as
> follows:
> 
> Stick a 32 or 64 port serial card into a PC (Cyclades makes good ones),
> run Linux or *BSD on the PC, and install Paul Vixie's excellent rtty
> package to serve up the serial ports (available from ftp.vix.com).
> 
> The advantage of this method over a "keyboard/monitor switch" is
> obviously that you can get at the serial console remotely.  The
> advantages of this method over a more simple terminal-server based
> solution are:
> 
> 1) More than one person can be connected to a console port at a time
> 
> 2) Not only can you remotely connect to console ports, but everything
>    that happens on them gets logged... this is a big one because not
>    infrequently when something unusual happens to a machine the only
>    information about it is written to the console, and can thus be lost
>    if not logged.
> 
> 3) You can make it very secure by allowing connections to the console
>    server only via Ssh.  By using Ssh's feature of tying a particular
>    command to a particular public key you can give out keys for specific
>    consoles to specific operators without giving them access to all
>    consoles.
> 
> 4) Since you can put several 64 port cards into a single PC (easily 3
>    or 4) you can manage a LOT of devices from a single console server
>    this way...
> 
> It's really a very good solution and can be used not only for workstations
> but also for routers, hubs, NetApp servers, etc., etc.
> 
> The only downside of using serial consoles with Suns is that Suns have
> the annoying habit of dropping into the ROM monitor when power to the
> console server is lost (they interpret this as a "break" condition).
> As best I can tell this is the case for any serial console hooked up
> to a Sun, even a dumb terminal.
> 
> The workaround is to never shut down the power to the console server
> (reboot is fine), and if you absolutely must, disconnect all the
> serial cables first.  Older Suns also sometimes drop into the monitor
> if you just disconnect the cable, but we've found that this can be
> prevented by putting a resistor across the right pins.  Actually one
> can prevent break conditions altogether by putting a resistor across a
> certain set of pins, but then you can't drop into the boot monitor
> anymore, so that's not desireable.  If anyone has an optimal solution
> to this problem, I'd love to hear it...
> 
> - Jürgen
> 
> 
> 



From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 15 13:18:41 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA11644
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:18:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gerbil.slip.net (gerbil.slip.net [207.171.193.8])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA11635
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:18:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from root by gerbil.slip.net with local (Exim 2.02 #1)
	id 101GR5-0001IP-00; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:05:43 -0800
Received: (from ptemples@localhost)
	by ferret.slip.net (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id AAA19340
	for ptemples@ne.mediaone.net; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:27:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: from falcon ([207.171.193.27] helo=falcon.slip.net)
	by ferret.slip.net with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 1014bP-00051f-00
	for ptemples@slip.net; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:27:35 -0800
Received: from [131.106.1.254] (helo=usenix.ORG)
	by falcon.slip.net with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 1014bM-0002OC-00
	for phil@temples.com; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:27:32 -0800
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA07773
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:37:59 -0800 (PST)
Received: from anchor.cs.colorado.edu (anchor.cs.colorado.edu [128.138.242.1])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA07764
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:37:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: from anchor.cs.colorado.edu (evi@localhost.cs.colorado.edu
	[127.0.0.1])
	by anchor.cs.colorado.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA26889;
	Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:34:53 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199901150734.AAA26889@anchor.cs.colorado.edu>
To: Dan Marner <dmarner@marada-corp.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org, evi@anchor.cs.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: Teaching System Administration with limited hands-on 
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:34:52 -0700
From: Evi Nemeth <evi@anchor.cs.colorado.edu>
X-Loop: temples.com
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

for my sysadmin class this semester i went to the boneyard
and found 25 sun ipc type machines.  stuck them in a rack
with no monitors, installed openbsd (sunos or linux work too)
and have 2 students/machine.  can't you find some old hardware
laying around.

-evi



From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 15 13:18:23 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA11591
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:18:23 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gerbil.slip.net (gerbil.slip.net [207.171.193.8])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA11569
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:18:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: from root by gerbil.slip.net with local (Exim 2.02 #1)
	id 101GQi-0001FT-00
	for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:05:20 -0800
Received: (from ptemples@localhost)
	by ferret.slip.net (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id XAA14892
	for ptemples@ne.mediaone.net; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:37:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: from falcon ([207.171.193.27] helo=falcon.slip.net)
	by ferret.slip.net with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 1013pC-0003ry-00
	for ptemples@slip.net; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:37:46 -0800
Received: from [131.106.1.254] (helo=usenix.ORG)
	by falcon.slip.net with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 1013pE-0001SI-00
	for phil@temples.com; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:37:48 -0800
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA05773
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:43:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from blob.unixshaman.com (pseudo.unixshaman.com [209.232.122.115])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA05758
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:43:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from bl@localhost) by blob.unixshaman.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id WAA01264
	for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:41:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Brett Lemoine <bl@unixshaman.com>
Message-Id: <199901150641.WAA01264@blob.unixshaman.com>
Subject: Re: Need "console switch" - any ideas?
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:41:20 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <199901150417.UAA14516@canopus.starshine.org> from "Jim Dennis"
	at Jan 14, 99 08:17:45 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME5a]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Loop: temples.com
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Jim Dennis spake thusly:
> 
> > The only downside of using serial consoles with Suns is that Suns have
> > the annoying habit of dropping into the ROM monitor when power to the
> > console server is lost (they interpret this as a "break" condition).
> > As best I can tell this is the case for any serial console hooked up
> > to a Sun, even a dumb terminal.
> 	
> 	It is.  It's happened to me many times.  (Seems silly to
> 	*have* to put your rarely used serial console terminal
> 	on your UPS --- but that's Sun's idea of a joke on 
> 	all of us).  What were those little Stanford boys thinking?

Sun Consulting has software for Solaris 2.6 and earlier that permits
the changing of the character interpreted as the 'break'.  It's not
cheap, but worth the price of not watching a couple of hundred Sun
systems halt 'cause some idiot tripped over a power strip.  Ask
your Sun sales rep about Sun Consulting's ZSBRK package.

bl
-- 
//= Brett G. Lemoine ====================================================\\
|| Unix Shaman Consulting   |"There are two major products that come out  ||
|| Core Unix System Services| of Berkeley:         LSD and UNIX.          ||
|| Sr. Systems Administrator| We don't believe this to be a coincidence." ||
|| bl@unixshaman.com        |                       -- Jeremy S. Anderson ||
|+-------------------------+----------------------------------------------+|
\\ PGP Key Fingerprint: 68 A1 2A 2D 82 CE E9 70  5B 80 D1 11 EC F3 FB 85 //




From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 15 14:14:49 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14204
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:14:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail2.uunet.ca (root@mail2.uunet.ca [142.77.1.15])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14194
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:14:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from pollux.uunet.ca (jsellens1.uunet.ca [209.47.143.131]) by
	mail2.uunet.ca with ESMTP id <123433-24175>;
	Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:12:10 -0500
Received: (from jsellens@localhost)
	by pollux.uunet.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09353;
	Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:12:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jsellens)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:12:08 -0500
From: John Sellens <jsellens@uunet.ca>
Message-Id: <199901152212.RAA09353@pollux.uunet.ca>
To: sage-members@usenix.org, tommy@bell-labs.com
Subject: Re: Need "console switch" - any ideas?
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

| From tommy@bell-labs.com Fri Jan 15 05:11:40 1999
| To: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
| Subject: Re: Need "console switch" - any ideas? 
| From: Tom Reingold <tommy@bell-labs.com>
| Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:25:14 -0500
| 
| Like Wim and Jurgen, we generally prefer serial consoles and a unix 
| system to tie them all together, but we have NT systems which don't 
| have that option.

(Same here)

I keep hoping that some PC KVM switch maker will put a 10baseT jack
on the box and install a PCanywhere server (or something) as a
front end to the KVM switch.  I've suggested it to a few vendors.
They thought I was sick.  If two of us mention it, in harmony
perhaps, they'll think we're a couple.  And if three people walked
in and mentioned it, they'd think we were an organization.  But
can you imagine fifty people a day, I said fifty people a day,
walking in, asking for a PCanywhere server in a KVM switch, and
walking out?  Friends, they may think it's a movement.

(Sorry, I got carried away)

John


From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 15 14:58:36 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16086
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:58:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gerbil.slip.net (gerbil.slip.net [207.171.193.8])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA16066
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:58:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: from root by gerbil.slip.net with local (Exim 2.02 #1)
	id 101Hzq-0002Xj-00; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:45:42 -0800
Received: from usenix.ORG (usenix-gw.usenix.ORG [131.106.1.254])
	by ferret.slip.net (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA15324
	for <phil@temples.com>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:23:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA26626
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:50:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: from nova.botz.org (root@cm40115.cableco-op.com [208.138.40.115])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26617
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:50:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: from nova (IDENT:jbotz@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by nova.botz.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA19767;
	Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:48:13 -0800
Message-Id: <199901151548.HAA19767@nova.botz.org>
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2
To: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>
Cc: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Need "console switch" - any ideas? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:17:45 PST."
	<199901150417.UAA14516@canopus.starshine.org> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:48:13 -0800
From: Jurgen Botz <jurgen@botz.org>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.ORG id HAA26618
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Jim Dennis wrote:
> 	rtty looks interesting --- but it won't compile
> 	under my copy of Linux:
> 
> /usr/local/src/rtty/rtty.c:218: undefined reference to `FD_ZERO'
>[...]
> 	--- but Paul does say that he only expects it to work on
> 	BSD in his notes.  

Works fine for me under Linux.  I remember having a problem 
similar to the above at one point in the past and fixing it with
a bit of header munging, but under RedHat 5.2 it seems to compile
out of the box anyway.  And it definitely works, I have it running
under Linux in two machine rooms with a total of about 160 serial
ports...

- Jürgen





From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 15 16:19:59 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20077
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:19:59 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gerbil.slip.net (gerbil.slip.net [207.171.193.8])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20068
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:19:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from root by gerbil.slip.net with local (Exim 2.02 #1)
	id 101JGd-0005oH-00; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:07:07 -0800
Received: from usenix.ORG (usenix-gw.usenix.ORG [131.106.1.254])
	by falcon.net. (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA18024
	for <phil@temples.com>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:08:52 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA24200
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 06:46:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: from atlxchange.talus.net (atlxchange.talus.net [38.212.192.5])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA24191
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 06:46:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: by atlxchange.atl.talus.net with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
	id <CKCQ16FS>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:40:20 -0500
Message-ID: <5DDC98303A22D21180D800A0C9A92FEA1D54BD@atlxchange.atl.talus.net>
From: Matt Birkner <mbirkner@talus.net>
To: "'John Geletej'" <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM>, SAGE Members
	<sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: RE: Need "console switch" - any ideas?
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:40:18 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

We've had good luck with the kvm switch from Rose Electronics
(www.rosel.com) for our Sun systems.  The only "gotcha" with our
switch is that if you want to use in across multiple platforms at
least one system connected has to be a PC to provide a console which
can configure the box for to handle the other systems.  At least
that's my understanding if you're using the switch for a mix of Sun's
and some other OS.  They do have a Sun only version that works great
(which is what we're actually using).

We've also had good luck with Cybex kvm switches, but they get pricey
when you add in their Sun-specific cables.  The price isn't too bad
for standard VGA/PS2/Serial connections.

Matt

========================================================================

Matt Birkner                  "If they are the pillars of our
community,
Systems Administrator         We better to keep a sharp eye on the
roof"
Talus
404-763-5454 x416                        
mbirkner@talus.net                [Standard Views Disclaimer applies]

========================================================================




> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Geletej [mailto:geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM]
> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 1999 9:32 AM
> To: SAGE Members
> Subject: Need "console switch" - any ideas?
> 
> 
> Greetings all,
> 
> I find myself in need of a "box" that will allow several UNIX
> workstations/servers to be controlled at a single
> keyboard/mouse/monitor. My primary need is for SGI equipment, 
> but I may
> need to incorporate a couple of Sun SPARCStations into the 
> mix as well.
> 
> Anybody out there know of or use such a beastie?
> 
> TIA,
> 
> -john g-
> 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>

iQA/AwUBNp9UFkzqZ2B7hAbiEQLngwCfQ6BZCVg4vOuKqb/a/fPufv1hs30AoPax
cQOXsGhMV2vvnhw+NdAsWv3J
=nx5A
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 15 16:37:48 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20874
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:37:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gerbil.slip.net (gerbil.slip.net [207.171.193.8])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20833
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:37:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: from root by gerbil.slip.net with local (Exim 2.02 #1)
	id 101JXa-0000AT-00; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:24:38 -0800
Received: from usenix.ORG (usenix-gw.usenix.ORG [131.106.1.254])
	by falcon.net. (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA20730
	for <phil@temples.com>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:45:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA26441
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:46:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from suod.cs.colorado.edu (suod.cs.colorado.edu [128.138.192.205])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26427
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:46:29 -0800 (PST)
Received: from suod.cs.colorado.edu (mcginley@localhost.cs.colorado.edu
	[127.0.0.1])
	by suod.cs.colorado.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id IAA19964;
	Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:43:34 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199901151543.IAA19964@suod.cs.colorado.edu>
To: Evi Nemeth <evi@anchor.cs.colorado.edu>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Teaching System Administration with limited hands-on 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:34:52 MST."
	<199901150734.AAA26889@anchor.cs.colorado.edu> 
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:43:34 -0700
From: Lynda McGinley <mcginley@suod.cs.colorado.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


--------

    for my sysadmin class this semester i went to the boneyard
    and found 25 sun ipc type machines.  stuck them in a rack
    with no monitors, installed openbsd (sunos or linux work too)
    and have 2 students/machine.  can't you find some old hardware
    laying around.
    
    -evi

---------------
you did?


From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 15 16:39:41 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20986
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:39:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gerbil.slip.net (gerbil.slip.net [207.171.193.8])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20977
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:39:35 -0800 (PST)
Received: from root by gerbil.slip.net with local (Exim 2.02 #1)
	id 101JZi-0000SL-00; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:26:50 -0800
Received: from usenix.ORG (usenix-gw.usenix.ORG [131.106.1.254])
	by falcon.net. (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA21103
	for <phil@temples.com>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:50:22 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA26412
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:44:43 -0800 (PST)
Received: from michelob.wustl.edu (michelob.wustl.edu [128.252.130.10])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26398
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:44:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (hargiss@localhost) by michelob.wustl.edu (AIX4.3/UCB
	8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA18726; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:43:00 -0600
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:42:59 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jeff \"Forest Creature\" Hargiss" <hargiss@michelob.wustl.edu>
To: John Geletej <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM>
cc: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Need "console switch" - any ideas?
In-Reply-To: <369DFFDD.3B8993F1@pt.cyanamid.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96.990115093935.2514D-100000@michelob.wustl.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

we are using the 'cybex autoboot commander 4xp'

this even has speaker & mike jacks :)

ours can accept 12 hosts.

serial mouse port
ps/2 port
ps/2 keyboard
mac keyboard
sun keyboard
vga [as in 15pin] connector

the machine does hi-res, but i do not know the parameters beyond that.

this has been in service for a few years and has had no problems.



On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, John Geletej wrote:

> Greetings all,
> 
> I find myself in need of a "box" that will allow several UNIX
> workstations/servers to be controlled at a single
> keyboard/mouse/monitor. My primary need is for SGI equipment, but I may
> need to incorporate a couple of Sun SPARCStations into the mix as well.
> 
> Anybody out there know of or use such a beastie?
> 
> TIA,
> 
> -john g-
> 


---
forest creature, network druid
www.hargiss.com
---



From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 15 16:44:25 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA21213
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:44:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gerbil.slip.net (gerbil.slip.net [207.171.193.8])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21158
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:44:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: from root by gerbil.slip.net with local (Exim 2.02 #1)
	id 101Je8-0001Ay-00; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:31:24 -0800
Received: from usenix.ORG (usenix-gw.usenix.ORG [131.106.1.254])
	by falcon.net. (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22455
	for <phil@temples.com>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:07:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA25647
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:24:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: from netcom5.netcom.com (jdetke@netcom5.netcom.com [192.100.81.113])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA25638
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:23:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from jdetke@localhost)
	by netcom5.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id HAA18406; 
	Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:21:28 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:21:28 -0800 (PST)
From: "John F. Detke" <jdetke@netcom.com>
Subject: RE: Need "console switch" - any ideas?
To: Matt Birkner <mbirkner@talus.net>
cc: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
In-Reply-To: <5DDC98303A22D21180D800A0C9A92FEA1D54BD@atlxchange.atl.talus.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9901150756.A17952-0100000@netcom5>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


I've been looking for a KVM for home, last time I looked they were a bit 
pricey. But yesterday I tripped over the Cybex switchview, 4 port version 
for $200 (www.warehouse.com) *and* it doesn't appear to require special 
cables. It also claims to handle high-res graphics, 1600x1200x85Hz. Has 
anyone used this?

Please email me if you have, I'll summarize if there's interest.

--
John F. Detke		| "Daddy, I'm the kid,
jdetke@netcom.com 	|  I don't pay for anything!"
Felton, Ca		|  -- Kyle, philosopher-kid



From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan 17 12:04:06 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03735
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:04:06 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mistake.jxh.com (mistake.jxh.com [170.1.161.10])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA03721
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:03:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mistake.jxh.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mistake.jxh.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA23258;
	Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:01:00 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199901172001.MAA23258@mistake.jxh.com>
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
To: Brett Lemoine <bl@unixshaman.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Need "console switch" - any ideas? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:41:20 PST."
	<199901150641.WAA01264@blob.unixshaman.com> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:00:55 -0800
From: Jim Hickstein <jxh@jxh.com>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Brett Lemoine:
> Sun Consulting has software for Solaris 2.6 and earlier that permits
> the changing of the character interpreted as the 'break'.  It's not
> cheap, but worth the price of not watching a couple of hundred Sun
> systems halt 'cause some idiot tripped over a power strip.  Ask
> your Sun sales rep about Sun Consulting's ZSBRK package.

An academic footnote: The RS-232 "BREAK" signal is not quite a
character, but a "space" condition (opposite of "mark") on the RxD or
TxD wire for some period of time, longer than a character, i.e. after
the stop bits (mark) were supposed to be detected. The UART sees this
as a framing error, and generates an interrupt.  Break is supposed to
be 1.5s long (4s of space is a "disconnect"), but a space condition 10
bits long (1 start space, 8 data, 1 stop that should be mark but isn't)
will generate this interrupt.  At 9600bps, this goes by pretty
quickly.

The system is supposed to time the presence of this, and not think
"break" for short noises, such as power-cycling the terminal, but Suns
were never very good at obeying EIA RS-232, the standard.  Only IBM,
HP, and DEC seem to have read the part where it says that a DTE uses a
_male_ connector, for instance.  (Well, DB-25P, female shell, male pins.
But don't me started.)

I presume the consulting special masks the framing error interrupt, and
just watches for something in the receive FIFO.  This works as long as
the receive ISR is still functioning, but if the system has a serious
pathology you may not be able to get its attention this way.

Nevertheless, ZSBRK sounds like a good thing to have in one's arsenal.



From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 18 10:58:18 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA25434
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:58:18 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mollie.jax.org (mollie.jax.org [192.233.42.5])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA25422
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:58:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mollie.jax.org (mollie.jax.org [192.233.42.5])
	by mollie.jax.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA22316
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:55:48 -0500 (EST)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:55:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Gregg TeHennepe <gat@jax.org>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: disabling BREAK on Suns
In-Reply-To: <199901150641.WAA01264@blob.unixshaman.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901181350190.21525-100000@mollie.jax.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Brett Lemoine wrote:

> > > The only downside of using serial consoles with Suns is that Suns have
> > > the annoying habit of dropping into the ROM monitor when power to the
> > > console server is lost (they interpret this as a "break" condition).
> > > As best I can tell this is the case for any serial console hooked up
> > > to a Sun, even a dumb terminal.
> > 	
> > 	It is.  It's happened to me many times.  (Seems silly to
> > 	*have* to put your rarely used serial console terminal
> > 	on your UPS --- but that's Sun's idea of a joke on 
> > 	all of us).  What were those little Stanford boys thinking?
> 
> Sun Consulting has software for Solaris 2.6 and earlier that permits
> the changing of the character interpreted as the 'break'.  It's not
> cheap, but worth the price of not watching a couple of hundred Sun
> systems halt 'cause some idiot tripped over a power strip.  Ask
> your Sun sales rep about Sun Consulting's ZSBRK package.

>From the Sol 2.6 man page for kbd(1):

     The keyboard abort sequence (L1-A or STOP-A on the  keyboard
     and  BREAK  on  the serial console input device on most sys-
     tems) effect may only be changed by the superuser, using the
     -a option.

     On most systems, the default effect of  the  keyboard  abort
     sequence  is  to  suspend the operating system and enter the
     debugger or the monitor.  Some  systems  have  key  switches
     with  a  'secure' position. On these systems, the key switch
     in the 'secure' position, overrides any software default set
     with this command.

     If you want  to  permanently  change  the  software  default
     effect of the keyboard abort sequence, you can add or change
     the current value of  the  KEYBOARD_ABORT  variable  to  the
     value    disable    in    the    keyboard    default   file,
     /etc/default/kbd, as shown here.

          KEYBOARD_ABORT=disable

     Then, run the command 'kbd -i' to change  the  current  set-
     ting.   Valid  settings for this value are the values enable
     and disable.  Other values are ignored.  If the variable  is
     not specified in the default file, the setting is unchanged.

[...]

     -a enable/disable state
                       Enable  or  disable  the  keyboard   abort
                       sequence effect.
                       By  default,  a  keyboard  abort  sequence
                       (typically, Stop-A or L1-A on the keyboard
                       and BREAK on the  serial  console  device)
                       suspends the Operating System on most sys-
                       tems.   This  default  behavior   can   be
                       changed using this option. This option can
                       only be used by the superuser.

                       enable
                            Enable the default effect of the key-
                            board  abort  sequence,  which  is to
                            suspend  the  operating  system   and
                            enter the debugger or the monitor.

                       disable
                            Disable the default effect and ignore
                            keyboard abort sequences.


I've used it several times to rearrange cabling and configurations on a
console switch without bringing the system down. Note this is not available in
Sol 2.5.1.

Hope this helps... - Gregg

Gregg TeHennepe  | Unix Systems Administrator  | The Jackson Laboratory
gat@jax.org      | http://a.jax.org/~gat       | Bar Harbor, Maine  USA



From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 18 11:27:26 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA26477
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:27:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mhub1.tc.umn.edu (mhub1.tc.umn.edu [160.94.5.41])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA26468
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:27:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by mhub1.tc.umn.edu;
	Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:24:50 -0600
Received: by gold.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 18 Jan 99 13:24:50 -0600
Message-Id: <36a38a825eb2002@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 13:24:50 -0600
From: Dave Bianchi <djb@tc.umn.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: TCSA meeting January 21
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

The Twin Cities System Administrators (TCSA) group meets monthly to
discuss topics of interest to system and network administrators in
the Twin Cities area of Minnesota.  The meetings are free and open to
the public.  Check out our web site at http://www.tcsa.org/

TCSA meetings are on the third Thursday of each month at 7:00 pm.

Next Meeting:

  Topic:	LISA98 Review
  Speakers:	LISA98 attendees
  Date/Time:	January 21, 1999  7:00 pm
  Location:	University Park Plaza Office Building (MRNet)

Synopsis:

  A group of attendees from the LISA98 conference will
  provide a review of the conference.

  If you attended the conference and can contribute your
  thoughts and impressions of the conference, I urge you
  to attend.

We will meet at University Park Plaza Office Building (MRNet office),
2829 University Ave. SE, in a conference room on the first floor of
the building.


Tentative Meeting Schedule

  February 18, 1999
  March 18, 1999

Directions to University Park Plaza (MRNet):

The MRNet office is at University Park Plaza Office Building, 2829
University Ave. SE.  It is a white-concrete, 9-story, hexagonal
building (previously occupied by Group Health).  The windows are
distinctive, shaped somewhat like TV screens.  University Park Plaza
is on the north side of University Ave. (across from the Octopus Car
Wash), about 3 blocks east of the intersection of Washington Ave. and
University Ave. or about 3 blocks west of KSTP-TV. 

- From the South (35W)

Proceed north on 35W, exiting onto Interstate 94 East.  Continue in
the far left lane on Interstate 94 East to the Highway 280 exit.
Remain on Highway 280 until University Ave.  Turn left on University,
proceed 7 blocks west to SE 29th Ave.  The building is on your right. 

- From the North (35W)

Proceed south on 35W, exiting onto Highway 280 South.  Continue on
Highway 280 until the University Ave. exit.  Turn right on University.
Continue 7 blocks west to SE 29th Ave.  The building is on your right. 

- From the West (94/394)

Proceed east on 94, cross the Mississippi river and continue in the far
left lane on Interstate 94 East to the Highway 280 exit.  Remain on
Highway 280 until University Ave.  Turn left on University, proceed
7 blocks west to SE 29th Ave.  The building is on your right. 

- From the East (94)

Proceed west on 94, continue in the far right lane to the Highway 280
exit.  Remain on Highway 280 until University Ave.  Turn left onto
University, proceed 7 blocks to SE 29th St.  The building is on your
right. 

- Parking

Free parking is available in the visitor lot off SE 29th Ave. and in
front of the building along University Ave. 

- Web map is at: http://www.mr.net/about/location.html

For more information on TCSA, check out our web site:

  http://www.tcsa.org/

To subscribe to the TCSA mailing list (from a Unix system):

  echo "subscribe tcsa" | mailx majordomo@tcsa.org

For any other information, please send email to:

  info@tcsa.org

or contact:

  Dave Bianchi	651-644-7843

-- 
Dave Bianchi              djb@colltech.com    Work: 612-957-4532
Collective Technologies   djb@tc.umn.edu       FAX: 612-957-4195
   A Pencom Company                          Pager: 800-759-8888 
						    pin 571-8458


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 18 14:19:28 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA03330
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:19:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: from inm.sentex.ca (r00t@inm.sentex.ca [205.211.164.96])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA03321
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:19:22 -0800 (PST)
Received: from admin3.ineural.com (gdunn@admin3.ineural.com [192.168.0.71])
	by inm.sentex.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01808
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:18:08 -0500
Received: from localhost (gdunn@localhost)
	by admin3.ineural.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09914
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:17:05 -0500
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:17:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Origin of the 'E' in SAGE.
In-Reply-To: <36a38a825eb2002@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9901181715240.9889-100000@admin3.ineural.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Does anyone know ? It's been bugging me for some time. I mean, 'SAG' is a
pretty awful acronym.

--
 gdunn@ineural.com	 Graham Dunn         || ||| | ||| |||| | |||| | 
Systems Administrator - International Neural Machines Inc. - Waterloo, ON




From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 18 15:12:35 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA05415
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:12:35 -0800 (PST)
Received: from FNAL.FNAL.Gov (fnal.fnal.gov [131.225.9.8])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05406
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:12:30 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bel-kwinth.fnal.gov ("port 2274"@bel-kwinth.fnal.gov)
	by FNAL.FNAL.GOV (PMDF V5.1-12 #3998)
	with ESMTP id <01J6OZFZFT6C0001S9@FNAL.FNAL.GOV> for
	sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:10:05 -0600 CDT
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:09:46 -0600 (EST)
From: "Marc W. Mengel" <mengel@fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: Origin of the 'E' in SAGE.
In-reply-to: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9901181715240.9889-100000@admin3.ineural.com>
To: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Message-id: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9901181704560.629-100000@bel-kwinth.fnal.gov>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Graham Dunn wrote:

> Does anyone know ? It's been bugging me for some time. I mean, 'SAG' is a
> pretty awful acronym.

SAG is already the Screen Actors Guild, and while an honorable bunch
in their own right, the E in ours was to distinguish us from them, I
think.

I suppose it could be *made* to stand for something, like "Extrordinaire",
but moste things I can think of sound either silly or pretentious (or
both)...

Marc



From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 18 15:53:17 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA07067
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:53:17 -0800 (PST)
Received: from zamboni.cs.wisc.edu (zamboni.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.162.15])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA07054
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:53:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from cs.wisc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by zamboni.cs.wisc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA19336;
	Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:50:39 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199901182350.RAA19336@zamboni.cs.wisc.edu>
To: "Marc W. Mengel" <mengel@fnal.gov>
cc: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Origin of the 'E' in SAGE. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:09:46 CST."
	<Pine.LNX.4.05.9901181704560.629-100000@bel-kwinth.fnal.gov> 
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:50:39 -0600
From: David Parter <dparter@cs.wisc.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


The answer I've always heard (I don't know who thought of it, but I like it):
    
    The "E" in SAGE is the missing "E" from the creat() system call.

I've given that answer several times, usually well recieved. I once did
a PGP information session on campus, which many non-Unix people attended
(of course I was wearing my SAGE T-shirt). They didn't get it.

    --david


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 18 15:55:31 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA07142
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:55:31 -0800 (PST)
Received: from doorknob.artemis.com (firewall-user@doorknob.webtv.net
	[209.240.195.13]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA07133
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:55:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from uucp@localhost) by doorknob.artemis.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id
	PAA19939; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:53:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from burgher.artemis.com(172.17.97.11) by dot.artemis.com via smap
	(3.2) id xma019863; Mon, 18 Jan 99 15:52:59 -0800
Received: from mango.artemis.com (mango.artemis.com [172.17.3.41]) by
	burgher.artemis.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/980626) with ESMTP id PAA21871;
	Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:52:58 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from arnold@localhost) by mango.artemis.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
	PAA22719; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:52:58 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:52:58 -0800
From: Arnold de Leon <arnold@corp.webtv.net>
To: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Origin of the 'E' in SAGE.
Message-ID: <19990118155257.E22644@corp.webtv.net>
Mail-Followup-To: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>, sage-members@usenix.ORG
References: <36a38a825eb2002@gold.tc.umn.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.05.9901181715240.9889-100000@admin3.ineural.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9901181715240.9889-100000@admin3.ineural.com>;
	from Graham Dunn on Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 05:17:05PM -0500
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Well we thought SAGE was a good name.  When the group was being
formed it was the working name until a better name came could
be found or the a suitable "E" word was found. 

Neither happened and the name stuck.

It has been suggested that the "E" is the one that was
left off from "creat".

	arnold

On Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 05:17:05PM -0500, Graham Dunn wrote:
> Does anyone know ? It's been bugging me for some time. I mean, 'SAG' is a
> pretty awful acronym.
> 
> --
>  gdunn@ineural.com	 Graham Dunn         || ||| | ||| |||| | |||| | 
> Systems Administrator - International Neural Machines Inc. - Waterloo, ON
> 

-- 
Arnold de Leon                       WebTV Networks, Inc.
arnold@corp.webtv.net                305 Lytton Ave.
+1 650 614 5538                      Palo Alto, CA 94301


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 18 15:56:25 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA07175
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:56:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: from avalon.qualcomm.com (avalon.qualcomm.com [203.30.171.11])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA07151
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:56:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ggr-laptop.qualcomm.com (avalon [203.30.171.11]) by
	avalon.qualcomm.com (8.8.3/8.7.2/1.0) with SMTP id KAA01405;
	Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:52:34 +1100 (EST)
Message-Id: <4.1.19990119094859.00b2b200@127.0.0.1>
X-Sender: ggr2@127.0.0.1
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:50:27 +1000
To: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
From: Greg Rose <ggr@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: Origin of the 'E' in SAGE.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9901181715240.9889-100000@admin3.ineural.com
 >
References: <36a38a825eb2002@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

At 17:17 18/01/99 -0500, Graham Dunn wrote:
>Does anyone know ? It's been bugging me for some time. I mean, 'SAG' is a
>pretty awful acronym.

It's the "e" off the "creat" system call in Unix. It was found in Ken
Thompson's dumpster at the back of Bell Labs.

regards,
Greg.

Greg Rose                                       INTERNET: ggr@Qualcomm.com
Qualcomm Australia          VOICE:  +61-2-9181-4851   FAX: +61-2-9181-5470
Suite 410, Birkenhead Point,               http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ 
Drummoyne NSW 2047      232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F  E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 18 16:38:39 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA08893
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:38:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from oscar.yerkes.com (what.snew.com [206.136.64.13])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA08853
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:38:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from chuck@localhost) by oscar.yerkes.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25885;
	Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:35:57 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <19990118193557.A25869@yerkes.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:35:57 -0500
From: chuck <chuck@Yerkes.com>
To: "Marc W. Mengel" <mengel@fnal.gov>, Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Origin of the 'E' in SAGE.
References: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9901181715240.9889-100000@admin3.ineural.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.05.9901181704560.629-100000@bel-kwinth.fnal.gov>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9901181704560.629-100000@bel-kwinth.fnal.gov>;
	from Marc W. Mengel on Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 05:09:46PM -0600
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

It's the "e" that should have been in "creat(2)"


Quoting Marc W. Mengel (mengel@fnal.gov):
> 
> 
> On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Graham Dunn wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone know ? It's been bugging me for some time. I mean, 'SAG' is a
> > pretty awful acronym.
> 
> SAG is already the Screen Actors Guild, and while an honorable bunch
> in their own right, the E in ours was to distinguish us from them, I
> think.
> 
> I suppose it could be *made* to stand for something, like "Extrordinaire",
> but moste things I can think of sound either silly or pretentious (or
> both)...
> 
> Marc


From sage-members-owner  Mon Jan 18 21:50:44 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA19809
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:50:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: from igtc.igtc.com (pmm@igtc.igtc.com [206.86.144.10])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA19800
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:50:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from pmm@localhost) by igtc.igtc.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) id VAA12524;
	Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:48:05 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:48:05 -0800
From: "Paul M. Moriarty" <pmm@igtc.com>
To: chuck <chuck@Yerkes.com>
Cc: "Marc W. Mengel" <mengel@fnal.gov>, Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>,
	sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Origin of the 'E' in SAGE.
Message-ID: <19990118214805.C11354@igtc.igtc.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9901181715240.9889-100000@admin3.ineural.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.05.9901181704560.629-100000@bel-kwinth.fnal.gov>
	<19990118193557.A25869@yerkes.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i
In-Reply-To: <19990118193557.A25869@yerkes.com>;
	from chuck on Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 07:35:57PM -0500
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Actually, if I remember correctly Elizabeth Zwicky said it was the "e" that
should have been in resolv.conf.

-> Paul <-

chuck writes:
> It's the "e" that should have been in "creat(2)"
> 
> 
> Quoting Marc W. Mengel (mengel@fnal.gov):
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Graham Dunn wrote:
> > 
> > > Does anyone know ? It's been bugging me for some time. I mean, 'SAG' is a
> > > pretty awful acronym.
> > 
> > SAG is already the Screen Actors Guild, and while an honorable bunch
> > in their own right, the E in ours was to distinguish us from them, I
> > think.
> > 
> > I suppose it could be *made* to stand for something, like "Extrordinaire",
> > but moste things I can think of sound either silly or pretentious (or
> > both)...
> > 
> > Marc


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 19 02:16:40 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA00879
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 02:16:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: from craggy.hillside.co.uk (craggy.hillside.co.uk [194.205.42.1])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA00870
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 02:16:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from craggy (pc@localhost)
	by craggy.hillside.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12367
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:14:10 GMT
Message-Id: <199901191014.KAA12367@craggy.hillside.co.uk>
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: sage-members-digest V1 #259 
In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 19 Jan 1999 02:00:07 -0800 (PST) .
	<199901191000.CAA00161@usenix.ORG> 
X-url: http://www.hillside.co.uk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:14:09 +0000
From: Peter Collinson <pc@hillside.co.uk>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Gosh what solidariteeeee

Peter Collinson




From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 19 02:49:07 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA02052
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 02:49:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from supermarine.crossflight.co.uk
	(root@supermarine.crossflight.co.uk [195.172.72.3])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA02043
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 02:48:58 -0800 (PST)
Received: from crossflight.co.uk (northrop.crossflight.co.uk [195.172.72.7])
	by supermarine.crossflight.co.uk (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA10109; 
	Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:46:26 GMT
Message-ID: <36A46282.308451C9@crossflight.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:46:26 +0000
From: Guy Dawson <guy@crossflight.co.uk>
Reply-To: guy@crossflight.co.uk
Organization: Crossflight Ltd
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Origin of the 'E' in SAGE.
References: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9901181715240.9889-100000@admin3.ineural.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



Graham Dunn wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know ? It's been bugging me for some time. I mean, 'SAG' is a
> pretty awful acronym.

It does mean that those of us who are not guru's can at least be sages.

Guy
-- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Guy Dawson                    I.T. Manager              Crossflight Ltd
guy@crossflight.co.uk         0973  797819                 01753 776104


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 19 04:59:33 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA06555
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 04:59:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from melbin.sysadmin.com.au (geoff@gateway.sysadmin.com.au
	[203.63.134.254]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA06546
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 04:59:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from geoff@localhost)
	by melbin.sysadmin.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07062;
	Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:56:58 +1100 (EST)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:56:58 +1100 (EST)
From: Geoff Halprin <geoff@sysadmin.com.au>
Message-Id: <199901191256.XAA07062@melbin.sysadmin.com.au>
To: sage-members@usenix.org, sage-au@sage-au.org.au
Subject: Solaris device tree question
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Evening/Morning (depending on the time zone :-),

I have this situation which I can't believe hasn't been solved by someone
out there. It goes something like this...

When you install Solaris, it builds up the "device tree" which is a
mapping of /dev entries to underlying hardware.  Part of this is the
allocation of controller numbers to each disk controller it finds. This
search is conducted in order by backplane (across multi-system board
configs), and by SBus card. The numbers are allocated sequentially,
eliminating any gaps. (So you see /dev/c0xxx, /dev/c1xxx, etc).

If you add hardware (a new controller) after this build, the new
controller gets the next number. (i.e. Solaris remembers where it was
up to.) All this is handled by /etc/path_to_inst, which is a file
you really don't want to edit by hand.

Now the problem arises when you build a new O/S from scratch (or when
you boot of CDROM) and it builds a new device tree from scratch --
altering the positions of the disks with somewhat less than desirable
consequences... :-|

There are (to my way of thinking) 4 strategies for dealing with this:

  1.	Physically move controllers around so they match the search
	order (the hardware solution).

  2.	Tell the EEPROM the sequence to 'discover' devices in (the
	firmware solution).

  3.	Remap the devices in Solaris to map the original sequence.
	(maintain existing mappings)

  4.	(Find and) update all device references to reflect the new
	(default) device paths. (Application reconfiguration)

Now, it would seem (2) is the best, but I don't know if it can be
done. (3) is only deferring the problem, and (1) requires pulling the
machine apart, and probably unbalances the I/O load somewhat. (4) is a
pain in the butt 'cause you have to find all the references, and if you
miss one... :-(

Also, the machine uses Disk Suite so this makes things worse. Yes, I've
read infodoc 2224 (I think that's the number), which basically describes
how to do (4), but it's very manual and error prone.  If we go with (4),
I'd like to automate it a little.

So:

Q1. How have people tackled this problem?

Q2. Are there any tools which give you a complete mapping of the
    existing config as a precursor to all of the above options?
    (prtdiag isn't quite there, neither is prtconf)

Q3. Any other techniques or advice?

Send to me and I'll summarise.

Warm regards,

Geoff
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geoff Halprin                                  Geoff.Halprin@sysadmin.com.au
Managing Director                                 http://www.sysadmin.com.au
The SysAdmin Group Pty Ltd                            Phone: +61-3-9686-3233
238 Richardson Street, Middle Park, VIC 3206          Fax:   +61-3-9686-3399
PGP Fingerprint: (FE349AAD) 05 93 68 35 B2 09 8E 6F  79 8C 16 F8 8F BC 2E CB
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 19 06:22:57 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA09716
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:22:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA09707
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:22:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0)
	id JAA01941; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:20:22 -0500 (EST)
Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0)
	id AA10360; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:20:22 -0500
Message-Id: <199901191420.AA10360@world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Origin of the 'E' in SAGE
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:20:21 -0500 (EST)
From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" <adamm@menlo.com>
Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

For those that don't remember, Ken Thompson was once asked what he would
have done differently if he had the chance to go back and do Unix over
again. The answer was something to the effect of "I'd spell creat(2)
with both Es."

AdamM


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 19 06:42:28 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA10636
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:42:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: from burlma1-smrt1.gtei.net (burlma1-smrt1.gtei.net [4.2.35.10])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA10619
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:42:23 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gtei.net (dilbert.sys.gtei.net [4.2.32.54])
	by burlma1-smrt1.gtei.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA12762;
	Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:39:56 GMT
Message-ID: <36A4993B.6A4F3489@gtei.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:39:55 +0000
From: Mark Lamourine <mlamouri@bbnplanet.com>
Organization: GTE Internetworking, Server Administration
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Origin of the 'E' in SAGE.
References: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9901181715240.9889-100000@admin3.ineural.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Graham Dunn wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know ? It's been bugging me for some time. I mean, 'SAG' is a
> pretty awful acronym.
> 
> --
>  gdunn@ineural.com       Graham Dunn         || ||| | ||| |||| | |||| |
> Systems Administrator - International Neural Machines Inc. - Waterloo, ON

The story I heard was that they finally found the 'e' that Ken Thompson
had lost from the 'creat' command.

Seriously, I think they just added it because "Sage" sounds so much
cooler than SAG. They picked the name and then tried to come up with an
acronym to make it work.  "System Administrator's Guild" sounded cool
too, someone remembered the 'e' from create and the inconsistancy was
solved.

It least, that's the way I heard it.  Are there witnesses/participants
here to confirm or deny?

- Mark
 
-- 
Mark Lamourine <mlamouri@gtei.net>
GTE Internetworking, Network Operations, Server Administration
3 Van DeGraff Drive, PO Box 3073, Burlington, MA 01830
Voice: +1 781 262 4306   Fax: +1 781 262 5508


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 19 08:53:20 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA15918
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:53:20 -0800 (PST)
Received: from pneumatic-tube.sgi.com (pneumatic-tube.sgi.com [204.94.214.22])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA15901
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:53:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rock.csd.sgi.com (fddi-rock.csd.sgi.com [150.166.9.10]) by
	pneumatic-tube.sgi.com
	(980309.SGI.8.8.8-aspam-6.2/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id
	IAA575167; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:50:36 -0800 (PST)
	mail_from (zwicky@pterodactyl.csd.sgi.com)
Received: from pterodactyl.csd.sgi.com (pterodactyl.csd.sgi.com
	[150.166.129.115])
	by rock.csd.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF)
	via SMTP id IAA49813; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:50:36 -0800 (PST)
	mail_from (zwicky@pterodactyl.csd.sgi.com)
Received: from localhost by pterodactyl.csd.sgi.com via SMTP
	(950413.SGI.8.6.12/911001.SGI)
	id IAA19371; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:50:15 -0800
Message-Id: <199901191650.IAA19371@pterodactyl.csd.sgi.com>
To: David Parter <dparter@cs.wisc.edu>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Origin of the 'E' in SAGE. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:50:39 CST."
	<199901182350.RAA19336@zamboni.cs.wisc.edu> 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:50:15 -0800
From: Elizabeth Zwicky <zwicky@pterodactyl.csd.sgi.com>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


I agree with Arnold's version of the story (he was there too, so it's
good that we agree). We came up with SAGE as an attractive acronym,
spent an *amazing* amount of time trying to come up with something to
do with the E, and figured we'd deal with it later. Our official
rationalizations have to do with the many missing Es in UNIX; I think
Paul is right that I started with resolv.conf, I don't know who
suggested creat(). I use them both, sometimes in alternation, sometimes
simultaneously. 

Let this be a lesson to you. There is no such thing as a temporary name.
And don't get clever trying to avoid the problem either; as $groupname,
the system administrator's group for New Jersey found out, there's just
no such thing as a temporary name. Tom was *sure* they couldn't just keep
what was obviously a variable name. He was outvoted. 

	Elizabeth Zwicky
	zwicky@sgi.com


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 19 09:08:02 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA16558
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:08:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: from news.mag-net.com (news.mag-net.com [207.102.83.11])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10888
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:06:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hope.UUCP (uucp@localhost)
	by news.mag-net.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with UUCP id MAA04127
	for usenix.org!sage-members; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:03:52 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:59:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Chriseli de Rama <chriseli@hh.bc.ca>
X-Sender: chriseli@hope
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Help on Planning LAN Upgrade by a Novice Sysad
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.3.91.990114112256.11521A-100000@hope>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Hello. We're planning to have an upgrade of our systems and I have been
given the task to implement the upgrade using a very tight budget. I'm
having difficulties because this is my first job since I graduated from the
university and I have not been given any apprenticeship/guidance from a
more mature system administrator in our firm (since I am the only tech
person in the building) or training from an educational institution that
provides sys admin/integration course (I can't afford to enrol in a course
and another reason for joining SAGE). We didn't have any networking/sys
admin and integration course in our computer science curriculum back in
school. I've been sys administering for a year now and I still feel dum.

Status Quo:
We currently have a P66/48MB RAM Eisa box running SCO Unix 3.2v.4.2 and
another unix box that serves as an application server solely for
accounting for which the specs are not worth mentioning. We have about 40
serial character-based terminals connected to the SCO box and 5 in
accounting and we definitely have no internet connection. We just use uucp
to poll our external email. 

This is my plan:

         Box A                                         Box B
 ------------------------               -----------------------------------
 |      Windows NT      |               | SCO UnixWare 7                  |
 |  Application Server  |               |                                 |
 |                      | <-----------> | WordPerfect 5.2+/6.0            |
 | Accounting           |               | Faximum                         |
 | PhoneTrak/CopiTrak   |               | Calendar/Scheduling App         |
 | Other Windows App    |               | Email                           |
 ------------------------               | Internet                        |
     |     |       |          ----------| Other Unix Apps                 |
     |     |       |          |         -----------------------------------
 Printers* |  Photocopiers    |                         |
           |                  |                         |
    Telephone System          |                         |
                              |                         |
                              |                         |
Character Terminals <----------                         |
                              |                         |
			      |  		  ------------
Desktop PCs <------------------                   | Firewall |
                              |                   ------------
                              |                         |
Printers <---------------------	         		|
						 ** INTERNET **

Box A - P66/48MB RAM, 3.5GB HD space
Box B - New box: PII 350Mhz, 64MB RAM, 4.5 HD space
* - optional

People using character terminals as well as those using PC's should be
able to access the character-based accounting software and other windows
apps that would be installed in the future on the NT Box. This is my plan.
My boss wanted it the other way around. Unixware (and all other unix apps)
on Box A and NT (and the accounting package) on Box B and have all the
PC's connected to Box B. I wasn't comfortable with my boss' setup so I
thought of my own. My primary reason for creating another setup is because
I don't want to see UnixWare be put to waste by not optimizing its
features/capabilities and have NT do all the important tasks. 

Do you think this will work? I'm sorry if I sound like an idiot but I'm 
totally lost. I just wanted to device a more practical and efficient plan 
that would be easier to implement (for a novice sys ad like me) and 
convince my boss that it's better.

Thanks for your help.

Chriseli


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 19 09:12:49 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA16835
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:12:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from firefly.cisco.com (firefly.cisco.com [171.69.63.22])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA16823
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:12:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.cisco.com
	(8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id JAA22147 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:09:44 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199901191709.JAA22147@firefly.cisco.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Origin of the 'E' in SAGE. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:46:26 GMT."
	<36A46282.308451C9@crossflight.co.uk> 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:09:44 -0800
From: "Kenneth E. Paul" <kenny@cisco.com>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Besides the E missing from creat, wasn't the name picked
the same week that Dan Quayle spelled "POTATOE", making the
additional "E" in SAGE a double inside joke?


Regards,        Kenny Paul                                  
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenneth E. Paul, Sr. Systems Administrator                   kenny@cisco.com
Software Management & Delivery Systems                          408-526-5210
Cisco Systems, Inc. 100 W. Tasman Dr. M-2, San Jose CA, 95134
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's a shame that our kids are dumb but our bombs are smart." -Danny Elfman



From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 19 09:55:15 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA19390
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:55:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from fw.com21.com (firewall-user@fw.com21.com [209.19.79.21])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA19370
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:55:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: by fw.com21.com; id MAA00210; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:52:11 -0500 (EST)
Received: from fws.com21.com(209.19.79.20) by fw.com21.com via smap (3.2)
	id xma000207; Tue, 19 Jan 99 12:51:58 -0500
Received: from pluto.viper by mercury.com21.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id JAA17282; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:44:44 -0800
Received: from com21.com by pluto.viper (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id JAA25451; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:51:55 -0800
Message-ID: <36A4C63B.40D77F54@com21.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:51:55 -0800
From: Kerry Boomsliter <kerry@com21.com>
Organization: Com21, Inc.
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Geoff Halprin <geoff@sysadmin.com.au>
CC: sage-members@usenix.org, sage-au@sage-au.org.au
Subject: Re: Solaris device tree question
References: <199901191256.XAA07062@melbin.sysadmin.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Geoff Halprin wrote:
> 
> Q3. Any other techniques or advice?

Veritas.  Unlike DiskSuites, Veritas writes enough meta-data on each
disk under it's control to find them no matter where they end up after a
reconfig reboot.  

Many years ago I had several servers running large, multiple volumes
under DiskSuites and saw Sun's new storage array (the original SSA). 
They demoed it with Veritas to show that you could bring the system
down, swap all the drives around in the SSA, boot -r, and be up and
running all the raid volumes with no hands on the keyboard.  Of course,
the RAID stripes were no longer optimally spread across all controllers
in the SSA, but Veritas sure makes it easy to deal with any
hardware/device changes.

Cheers,
-- 
Kerry P. Boomsliter - Sr. Systems Administrator - Com21, Inc.
Email: kerry@com21.com
Tel  : 408.953.9120
URL  : http://www.com21.com

> 
> Send to me and I'll summarise.
> 
> Warm regards,
> 
> Geoff
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Geoff Halprin                                  Geoff.Halprin@sysadmin.com.au
> Managing Director                                 http://www.sysadmin.com.au
> The SysAdmin Group Pty Ltd                            Phone: +61-3-9686-3233
> 238 Richardson Street, Middle Park, VIC 3206          Fax:   +61-3-9686-3399
> PGP Fingerprint: (FE349AAD) 05 93 68 35 B2 09 8E 6F  79 8C 16 F8 8F BC 2E CB
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 19 11:19:03 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA24122
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:19:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gate-sl1.mdli.com (ns2.mdli.com [208.200.221.3])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA24109
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:18:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from smap@localhost) by gate-sl1.mdli.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09763
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:08:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: from puffin.mdli.com(191.254.19.10) by gate-sl1.mdli.com via smap
	(V2.1) id xma009759; Tue, 19 Jan 99 11:08:31 -0800
Received: from hawk.mdli.com by puffin.mdli.com (8.8.5/BCH1.0)
	id LAA14018; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:15:59 -0800 (PST)
Received: by hawk.mdli.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/930416.SGI.AUTO)
	for sage-members@usenix.ORG id LAA16711;
	Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:15:57 -0800 (PST)
From: "David Mostardi" <davidm@mdli.com>
Message-Id: <9901191115.ZM16752@hawk.mdli.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:15:57 -0800
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail)
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: (summary) SAN mailing list
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Dec 17th, I asked this list:

> Does anyone know of a mailing list that
> discusses SAN (storage area network) technology?


Amongst the summary requests was only one reply:

   Check out ssa-managers and veritas-users.  Both are majordomo lists
   on eng.auburn.edu.  While they aren't dedicated to SANs, lots of
   people who are actually using fiber storage also use the lists.


Regards,
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Mostardi                                 Web: http://www.mdli.com
Unix Systems Manager                         Email: davidm@mdli.com
MDL Information Systems, Inc.                Voice: (510) 357-2222 x1420
14600 Catalina St., San Leandro CA 94577       Fax: (510) 352-2870

      -- "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout"


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 19 11:41:20 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA26034
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:41:20 -0800 (PST)
Received: from minerva.psc.edu (minerva.psc.edu [128.182.61.122])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA25851
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:40:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (ecf@localhost) by minerva.psc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with
	SMTP id OAA17599 for <sage-members@usenix.org>;
	Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:38:01 -0500
Message-Id: <199901191938.OAA17599@minerva.psc.edu>
X-Authentication-Warning: minerva.psc.edu: ecf@localhost didn't use HELO
	protocol
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Origin of the 'E' in SAGE. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:17:05 EST."
	<Pine.LNX.4.05.9901181715240.9889-100000@admin3.ineural.com> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:38:00 -0500
From: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



Silly boys.

Every woman knows that the real reason for the "e" is that no self-respecting
female would walk around with "SAG" across her breasts.

:-)

---------------------------------------------
    ecf@psc.edu     Esther Filderman    moose+@cmu.edu
	       System Mangler & News Dominatrix  
               Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center





From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 19 11:53:07 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA00601
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:53:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from oscar.yerkes.com (what.snew.com [206.136.64.13])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00564
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:52:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from chuck@localhost) by oscar.yerkes.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01695;
	Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:49:44 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <19990119144944.A1458@yerkes.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:49:44 -0500
From: chuck <chuck@Yerkes.com>
To: Kerry Boomsliter <kerry@com21.com>, Geoff Halprin <geoff@sysadmin.com.au>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Solaris device tree question
References: <199901191256.XAA07062@melbin.sysadmin.com.au>
	<36A4C63B.40D77F54@com21.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i
In-Reply-To: <36A4C63B.40D77F54@com21.com>;
	from Kerry Boomsliter on Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 09:51:55AM -0800
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Quoting Kerry Boomsliter (kerry@com21.com):
> Geoff Halprin wrote:
> > 
> > Q3. Any other techniques or advice?
> 
> Veritas.  Unlike DiskSuites, Veritas writes enough meta-data on each
> disk under it's control to find them no matter where they end up after a
> reconfig reboot.  

Or use an external RAID box and take the OS out of the effort
of doing the work of mirroring.  Then, when you move a disk
array, the admin needn't worry about making sure the config
files are set up *just*so*.

But if you still need software RAID, Veritas has a more mature
product.

The device remapping issue can be a nightmare in Solaris and
there's not a lot you can do short of booting Linux.  There's
nothing like throwing a new SCSI card into a machine and spending
the next 4 hours trying to recover from that.

> Many years ago I had several servers running large, multiple volumes
> under DiskSuites and saw Sun's new storage array (the original SSA). 
> They demoed it with Veritas to show that you could bring the system
> down, swap all the drives around in the SSA, boot -r, and be up and
> running all the raid volumes with no hands on the keyboard.  Of course,
> the RAID stripes were no longer optimally spread across all controllers
> in the SSA, but Veritas sure makes it easy to deal with any
> hardware/device changes.


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 19 12:00:12 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA01011
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:00:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: from oscar.yerkes.com (what.snew.com [206.136.64.13])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA01001
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:00:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from chuck@localhost) by oscar.yerkes.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01796;
	Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:57:30 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <19990119145729.B1458@yerkes.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:57:29 -0500
From: chuck <chuck@Yerkes.com>
To: John Geletej <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM>,
	SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Need "console switch" - any ideas?
References: <369DFFDD.3B8993F1@pt.cyanamid.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i
In-Reply-To: <369DFFDD.3B8993F1@pt.cyanamid.com>;
	from John Geletej on Thu, Jan 14, 1999 at 09:31:57AM -0500
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I've read the responses and offer this:
With Unix boxes, it's unlikely that you actually need KVM
control.  You probably need console access and that's easy to do
with true unix machines (PC/Unix may support it, but you need
keyboard/vid for BIOS access).  Get a terminal server or a cheap
PC with a 16-32 (or 64) port serial card.  TS's are more expensive,
but more reliable.

Sun's will sense a RS-232 'break' and halt when the TS power cycles.
You can get around this with a cable.  From Celeste's web page of
all serial port knowledge:
! The "Soldering Iron" solution 
! 
!    If you tie a 4.7K resistor between pins 3 and 25 of the ttya
! port, you electrically prevent a BREAK signal either from the key
! or from disconnecting or powering down the terminal. This prevents
! intentional halts except by removing the resistor, but does allow
! recabling.

It's easy to do with the DB-25 to RJ45 adapters that you likely
want to go into the terminal server.

Alternatively, for true KVM switching, most current SGI's just
use PS/2 keyboard/mice connectors and HD-15 video adapters.

I've been able to do EVERYTHING I needed on a workstation
via console port that I could via the actual console.  Graphical
tools run via Xwindows over the net just fine.  KVM's are for
MS-Windows boxes.

chuck


Quoting John Geletej (geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM):
> Greetings all,
> 
> I find myself in need of a "box" that will allow several UNIX
> workstations/servers to be controlled at a single
> keyboard/mouse/monitor. My primary need is for SGI equipment, but I may
> need to incorporate a couple of Sun SPARCStations into the mix as well.
> 
> Anybody out there know of or use such a beastie?
> 
> TIA,
> 
> -john g-


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 19 13:51:57 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA07963
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:51:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: from maury.arl.psu.edu (root@maury.arl.psu.edu [128.118.19.72])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA07954
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:51:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: from maury.arl.psu.edu (jim@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by maury.arl.psu.edu (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA03413;
	Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:48:54 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199901192148.QAA03413@maury.arl.psu.edu>
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
From: Jim Duncan <jim@arl.psu.edu>
To: Greg Rose <ggr@qualcomm.com>
cc: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Origin of the 'E' in SAGE. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:50:27 +1000."
	<4.1.19990119094859.00b2b200@127.0.0.1> 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:48:54 -0500
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Greg Rose writes:
> It's the "e" off the "creat" system call in Unix. It was found in Ken
> Thompson's dumpster at the back of Bell Labs.

Obviously an urban legend -- from you, an "urbane" legend -- because 
Ken Thompson never had a use for a dumpster.

	Jim


-- 
Jim.Duncan@psu.edu | Manager, Network & Information Systems | Member, PSU CERT
 Computing Systems & Networking Group, Applied Research Lab, Penn State Univ.
	      "Objects in calendar are closer than they appear."




From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 19 13:51:05 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA07900
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:51:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from metis.microunity.com (metis1.microunity.com [192.86.6.23])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA07891
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:50:58 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gaea.microunity.com (gaea.microunity.com [192.216.192.134])
	by metis.microunity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06156;
	Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:48:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: from tethys.microunity.com (tethys.microunity.com [192.216.192.21])
	by gaea.microunity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA18522;
	Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:44:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost by tethys.microunity.com (8.6.10/muse-sw.3)
	id NAA20570; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:44:39 -0800
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:44:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Bob Van Cleef <vancleef@microunity.com>
To: chuck <chuck@Yerkes.com>
cc: Kerry Boomsliter <kerry@com21.com>, Geoff Halprin <geoff@sysadmin.com.au>, 
	sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Solaris device tree question
In-Reply-To: <19990119144944.A1458@yerkes.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.990119134203.17951D-100000@tethys.microunity.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, chuck wrote:

> The device remapping issue can be a nightmare in Solaris and
> there's not a lot you can do short of booting Linux.  There's
> nothing like throwing a new SCSI card into a machine and spending
> the next 4 hours trying to recover from that.

Unfortunately, Linux has the same kind of problem with the remapping of
SCSI devices...  Remove a SCSI tape drive from your backup system for
service, reboot the system, and reconfigure your backup software... 

Bob
><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>
Bob Van Cleef, Member of Technical Staff         (408) 734-8100
MicroUnity Systems Engineering, Inc.         FAX (408) 734-8136
475 Potrero Ave., Sunnyvale, CA 94086   vancleef@microunity.com



From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 19 18:34:34 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA16651
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:34:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (lokkur.dexter.mi.us [148.59.2.1])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA16641
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:34:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from scs@localhost)
	by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.8.8/8.8.8/lokkur-1.1-scs) id VAA04273
	for sage-members@usenix.ORG; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:29:56 -0500 (EST)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:29:56 -0500
From: Steve Simmons <scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Origin of the 'E' in SAGE.
Message-ID: <19990119212956.A4269@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95us
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Elizabeth Zwicky <zwicky@pterodactyl.csd.sgi.com> writes:

>Let this be a lesson to you. There is no such thing as a temporary name.
>And don't get clever trying to avoid the problem either; as $groupname,
>the system administrator's group for New Jersey found out, there's just
>no such thing as a temporary name. Tom was *sure* they couldn't just keep
>what was obviously a variable name. He was outvoted. 

*chuckle*  The process works in the opposite direction as well.
SEMiSLUG was originally the SouthEastern Michigan Sun Local User
Group.  Sun eventually abandoned us, so we didn't stand for that
any more.  Eventually we made an Official Decision (one of about
four in our history).  SEMiSLUG now stands for `copy and convert'
because the name `dd' is already taken.

Membership in the group is predicated on understanding the name.

Don't bother to write and ask me to explain it.


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 26 13:38:00 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA19153
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:38:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail4.desupernet.net (qmailr@mail4.desupernet.net
	[204.249.184.39]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA19102
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:37:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: (qmail 12314 invoked from network); 26 Jan 1999 21:34:02 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO homer.ben-tech.com) (@205.246.83.123)
	by mail4.desupernet.net with SMTP; 26 Jan 1999 21:34:02 -0000
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:33:54 +0000 (GMT)
From: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
To: sage-members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Number of admins per number of users
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990126141249.5821A-100000@homer.ben-tech.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Greetings,

Our site currently has the following:
1  rs6000 AIX server
48 Wyse terminals
1  Linux i486 server
2  Windows NT application server
1  Windows NT print server
1  Windows NT primary domain controller
1  Citrix server
6  Laptops (3 NT Workstation, 3 Win95)
30 Desktop computers (18 Win95, 8 Win98, 4 NT Workstation)
1  ISDN WAN link
1  Switched 56k WAN Link
1  pair Cisco routers

Approx. 150 users

Services include: WWW, FTP, NFS, DNS, LPD, Samba, proprietary

Soon to add:
2  HP-9000 (1 core database, 1 radio frequency)

-----------

There are only two of us, administrators, at the site.  Lately I have
become overwhelmed with things to do.  It is probably a comman thing but I
was wondering "typically" how many admins are there at a site like ours.

At the risk of "boss bashing" I am the only technical person at the site.
They, (HR), have mad mention about hiring a person to support me.  I don't
know what the norm would be. 
	1) Should we all be working on the same things?
	2) Should we departmentalize?
	3) Am I "not really" overwhelmed, but just think I am?

Thanks in advance,
	Bennett

+----------------------------------------+
| Q. How do set a laser printer on stun? |
+----------------------------------------+



From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 26 14:01:20 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA20003
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:01:20 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rigel.dartmouth.edu (rigel.dartmouth.edu [129.170.18.204])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19994
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:01:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rigel.dartmouth.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by
	rigel.dartmouth.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA213456;
	Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:58:43 -0500
Message-Id: <199901262158.QAA213456@rigel.dartmouth.edu>
To: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
cc: sage-members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Number of admins per number of users 
In-reply-to: (Your message of Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:33:54 EST.)
	<Pine.LNX.3.96.990126141249.5821A-100000@homer.ben-tech.com> 
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:58:43 -0500
From: Pat Wilson <paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Bennett -

There really _aren't_ any good guidelines, since number of admins
seems to follow complexity of environment more than anything more
straightforward (number of users, number of machines, number of
OSes).  My rule of thumb is that the "right" number of sysadmins
is generally at least one more than you can have. :-<

If you're feeling overwhelmed, you probably _are_ overwhelmed.
It's an occupational hazard, though - you'll get used to it in
time.  Hiring a new person will help for a while - there's an
initial ramp up time when they're getting to know your
environment, and then eventually _they'll_ be overwhelmed too -
work seems to increase to overwhelm most shops.

As for whether all of you do work interchangeably or have your
own areas of expertise, I think things evolve to the
differentiation, but it's always nice if everyone knows enough
about what everyone else does so that you can take a stab at
something in an emergency.

Good luck.  Make sure your machines are as secure as you can make
them - it'll save you time in the long run.

Pat Wilson
paw@dartmouth.edu


>  Our site currently has the following:
>  1  rs6000 AIX server
>  48 Wyse terminals
>  1  Linux i486 server
>  2  Windows NT application server
>  1  Windows NT print server
>  1  Windows NT primary domain controller
>  1  Citrix server
>  6  Laptops (3 NT Workstation, 3 Win95)
>  30 Desktop computers (18 Win95, 8 Win98, 4 NT Workstation)
>  1  ISDN WAN link
>  1  Switched 56k WAN Link
>  1  pair Cisco routers
>  
>  Approx. 150 users
>  
>  Services include: WWW, FTP, NFS, DNS, LPD, Samba, proprietary
>  
>  Soon to add:
>  2  HP-9000 (1 core database, 1 radio frequency)
>  
>  -----------
>  
>  There are only two of us, administrators, at the site.  Lately I have
>  become overwhelmed with things to do.  It is probably a comman thing but I
>  was wondering "typically" how many admins are there at a site like ours.
>  
>  At the risk of "boss bashing" I am the only technical person at the site.
>  They, (HR), have mad mention about hiring a person to support me.  I don't
>  know what the norm would be. 
>  	1) Should we all be working on the same things?
>  	2) Should we departmentalize?
>  	3) Am I "not really" overwhelmed, but just think I am?
>  
>  Thanks in advance,
>  	Bennett
>  
>  +----------------------------------------+
>  | Q. How do set a laser printer on stun? |
>  +----------------------------------------+
>  


From sage-members-owner  Tue Jan 26 23:16:14 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA20905
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:16:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from draco-le1.is.macsch.com (draco.macsch.com [192.73.8.1])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA20893
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:16:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bootes.is.macsch.com (bootes.is.macsch.com [161.34.1.42])
	by draco-le1.is.macsch.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA02735
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:13:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from canismajor.is.macsch.com by bootes.is.macsch.com
	(4.1/MSCbootes.950222) id AA16097; Tue, 26 Jan 99 23:13:36 PST
Received: by canismajor.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSC.TW.SunOS.1.02)
	id AA14798; Tue, 26 Jan 99 23:13:36 PST
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 23:13:36 PST
From: todd@macsch.com (Todd Williams)
Message-Id: <9901270713.AA14798@canismajor.is.macsch.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: employment contracts
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I'm not sure how many members of this list are managers/directors/VP's/CIO's,
etc., but I'll give this a try anyway:

Does anybody out there have an employment contract?

Any comments/ideas/references/etc. ?

Feel free to discuss this, or email me privately.  I can summarize, or not,
as you request.

Todd Williams                     Manager, Computer and Communication Systems
MacNeal-Schwendler Corp. ("MSC"),  815 Colorado Blvd.,  Los Angeles, CA   90041
todd.williams@macsch.com          (323)259-4973          http://www.macsch.com/
geek  n. : a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usu.
includes biting the head off a live chicken or snake  -Webster's New Collegiate


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 27 00:23:37 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA23284
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:23:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: from as4.atsat.com (ldap.atsat.com [195.10.32.7])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA23272
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:23:31 -0800 (PST)
Received: from snert.com ([195.78.3.7]) by as4.atsat.com
	(Netscape Messaging Server 3.5)  with ESMTP id 259
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:19:37 +0100
Message-ID: <36AECC71.EE7BEF7A@snert.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:21:05 +0100
From: "Anthony Howe" <achowe@snert.com>
Organization: Alcyonis
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I)
X-Accept-Language: fr-FR
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: SAGE <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Bandwidth throttling
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Is there any software for bandwidth throttling and control on a per web
site/client basis ?

-- 
Anthony C Howe          1489 Ch. des Collines, 06110 Le Cannet, France
+33 (0)6 1189 7378 (p)  +33 (0)4 9346 8901 (f)            ICQ# 7116561
mailto:achowe@snert.com                          http://www.snert.com/
"Little !?" - Worf


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 27 06:25:34 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA07656
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:25:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from heimdall.sdrc.com (heimdall.sdrc.com [146.122.132.195])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA07647
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:25:29 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com ([146.122.142.31])
	by heimdall.sdrc.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA16461;
	Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:23:02 -0500 (EST)
Received: from hpcor3.sdrc.com (crjoslin@hpcor3.sdrc.com [146.122.7.86])
	by mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA02582;
	Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:23:00 -0500 (EST)
Received: by hpcor3.sdrc.com id JAA05354; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:23:01 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:23:01 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199901271423.JAA05354@hpcor3.sdrc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: paul.joslin@sdrc.com (Paul R. Joslin)
To: brs@ben-tech.com
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Number of admins per number of users
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990126141249.5821A-100000@homer.ben-tech.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990126141249.5821A-100000@homer.ben-tech.com>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Bennett> There are only two of us, administrators, at the site.
Bennett> Lately I have become overwhelmed with things to do.  It
Bennett> is probably a common thing but I was wondering
Bennett> "typically" how many admins are there at a site like
Bennett> ours.
Bennett>
Bennett> At the risk of "boss bashing" I am the only technical
Bennett> person at the site.  They, (HR), have mad mention about
Bennett> hiring a person to support me.  I don't know what the
Bennett> norm would be.
Bennett> 1) Should we all be working on the same things?

For a small shop, IME this is the way to go.

Benefit: Having all resources able to work any task helps increase
the timeliness of response.  Vacations and sick time don't cause a
crisis.  You're forced to better document your work, since someone
else might be the next person to pick it up.

Drawbacks: The overhead of keeping each other informed goes up.
It's easier to justify training if each person specializes. If
each person specializes, the time to resolve a problem drops
because that person has more relevant experience.  (I once worked
in the electronics shop of a mid-size hospital.  We had a tech who
maintained over 400 aging televisions in a few hours a week.  He
had literally seen it all - he could usually diagnose the ailing
part over the phone.)

Bennett> 2) Should we departmentalize?

Not in a shop of this size, unless you have data to show that
you can divide the areas in such a way that the work is roughly
equal.

Bennett> 3) Am I "not really" overwhelmed, but just think I am?

You really can't determine how many sysadmins are needed by
looking at the number of machines.  There are too many free
variables, such as how much OJT you are expected to provide, how
time-critical different problems are, and the diversity of
problems you encounter.

I would suggest that if you feel overwhelmed, you are.  However,
this may not indicate a resource problem.  I would talk to your
boss, and ask whether your job is to make the computers happy or
to make the users happy.  (Don't accept his/her first answer,
"Both!").  Tell him/her that you will work a reasonable number of
hours a week (negotiate a number between 40-50).  Indicate that
you are willing to work off-hours if needed to avoid
inconveniencing users; ask for a scheduled downtime if it will
help.  You want to be seen as a team player.  If you're routinely
working more than 45 hours a week something is wrong, or you
should be receiving additional compensation.  Then - tell your
boss that you intend to do a ruthless prioritization based on what
he/she told you your job was, and that some users may complain.
>From that day on, every request fits into this 2-D continuum:

	      Important     ---->     Less Important
         ----------------------------------------------------
Time     |
Critical |
|	 |
|	 |
|	 |
|	 |
V	 |
Less	 |
Time	 |
Critical |

Start working jobs in the upper left corner, and tell users that
jobs in the bottom right corner probably won't get done.  Then let
the users and your boss decide whether they need to apply more
resources.
--
Paul R. Joslin          YOU KNOW YOU'RE TOO STRESSED IF...
paul.joslin@sdrc.com    Teddy bears begin to bully you for milk and cookies.
+1 513 576 2012


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 27 11:08:46 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27121
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:08:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA27112
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:08:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by
	ftpbox.mot.com (8.8.5/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with ESMTP id NAA07434
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:06:19 -0600 (CST)
Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com,
	sender brownmic@plhp049.comm.mot.com )
Received: from m-il06-r1.mot.com (m-il06-r1.mot.com [129.188.137.193]) by
	mothost.mot.com (8.8.5/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with ESMTP id NAA23350
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:06:18 -0600 (CST)
Received: from plantation.comm.mot.com by m-il06-r1.mot.com with ESMTP for
	sage-members@usenix.ORG; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:58:19 -0700
Received: from plhp002.comm.mot.com ([145.2.148.3]) by plnt014.comm.mot.com
	with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version
	5.5.2232.9) id DKKLCZ6L; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:58:29 -0500
Received: from plhp049.comm.mot.com (brownmic@plhp049b [145.2.149.44])
	by plhp002.comm.mot.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id
	NAA20633
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:58:15 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from brownmic@localhost) by plhp049.comm.mot.com (8.8.6
	(PHNE_14041)/8.7.3) id NAA17605 for sage-members@usenix.ORG;
	Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:58:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Rogero Brown <brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com>
Message-Id: <199901271858.NAA17605@plhp049.comm.mot.com>
Subject: Status of Short Topics #4: Education/Training
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:58:13 EST
X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 212.4]
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

All-

Does anyone know the status of the Fourth Short Topics booklet? (the one on
Education/Training).  I first saw it listed at the Usenix page in early 
December and recall that we were told they would be sent out soon.  Have
they been sent out?  Or will it still be awhile before we get our copies?

--
Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.  
Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 27 12:12:16 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA01666
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:12:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rigel.dartmouth.edu (rigel.dartmouth.edu [129.170.18.204])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA01657
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:12:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rigel.dartmouth.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by
	rigel.dartmouth.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA48861;
	Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:09:48 -0500
Message-Id: <199901272009.PAA48861@rigel.dartmouth.edu>
To: Michael Rogero Brown <brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Status of Short Topics #4: Education/Training 
In-reply-to: (Your message of Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:58:13 EST.)
	<199901271858.NAA17605@plhp049.comm.mot.com> 
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:09:48 -0500
From: Pat Wilson <paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


They were shipped to members sometime after LISA.  I can't
remember quite when, though - it may have been around the end of
the year.  I've had mine for quite awhile now.

You might want to send mail to the Usenix office (office@usenix.org)
and ask them.  

Pat Wilson
paw@dartmouth.edu

>  All-
>  
>  Does anyone know the status of the Fourth Short Topics booklet? (the one on
>  Education/Training).  I first saw it listed at the Usenix page in early 
>  December and recall that we were told they would be sent out soon.  Have
>  they been sent out?  Or will it still be awhile before we get our copies?
>  
>  --
>  Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself
.  
>  Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
>  Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
>  email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 27 13:37:06 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA05883
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:37:06 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hobbes.cis.net (root@hobbes.cis.net [207.77.168.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05874
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:37:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hobbes.cis.net (asilva@hobbes.cis.net [207.77.168.2])
	by hobbes.cis.net (8.9.2/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA19414;
	Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:34:36 -0600 (CST)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:34:36 -0600 (CST)
From: "Andres J. Silva III" <asilva@cis.net>
To: Michael Rogero Brown <brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Status of Short Topics #4: Education/Training
In-Reply-To: <199901271858.NAA17605@plhp049.comm.mot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990127153414.16900B-100000@hobbes.cis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I got mine awhile back (a month ago at least)

- andy

On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Michael Rogero Brown wrote:

>All-
>
>Does anyone know the status of the Fourth Short Topics booklet? (the one on
>Education/Training).  I first saw it listed at the Usenix page in early 
>December and recall that we were told they would be sent out soon.  Have
>they been sent out?  Or will it still be awhile before we get our copies?
>
>--
>Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.  
>Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
>Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
>email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.
>



From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 27 14:12:49 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA07457
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:12:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA07448
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:12:43 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mothra (mothra.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.67])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA22432
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:14:27 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:08:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Adam Fuller <fuller@metalab.unc.edu>
X-Sender: fuller@mothra
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Status of Short Topics #4: Education/Training
In-Reply-To: <199901271858.NAA17605@plhp049.comm.mot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901271708150.22353-100000@mothra>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


	Got mine last night.

--
/*---------------------------------------------------------------------*
 * adam fuller                                   http://www.redcap.org *
 * Metalab Unix System Administrator            http://metalab.unc.edu *
 *---------------------------------------------------------------------*/

Disclaimer:  all opinions expressed in this e-mail are my own and do not
necessarily represent the opinions of the Metalab, the Vice Chancellor 
for Information Technology or the University of North Carolina.

On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Michael Rogero Brown wrote:

> All-
> 
> Does anyone know the status of the Fourth Short Topics booklet? (the one on
> Education/Training).  I first saw it listed at the Usenix page in early 
> December and recall that we were told they would be sent out soon.  Have
> they been sent out?  Or will it still be awhile before we get our copies?
> 
> --
> Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.  
> Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
> Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
> email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.
> 



From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 27 16:12:04 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA16584
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:12:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA16571
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:11:59 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hustle.rahul.net by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP 
	(peer crosschecked as: hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2])
	id QQgaaq04626
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:09:33 -0500 (EST)
Received: by hustle.rahul.net with UUCP id AA03028
	(5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for sage-members@usenix.org);
	Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:08:16 -0800
Received: from canopus.starshine.org (canopus.starshine.org [192.168.64.3])
	by antares.starshine.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA26747;
	Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:29:03 -0800
Received: from canopus.starshine.org (jimd@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by canopus.starshine.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA31137;
	Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:29:02 -0800
Message-Id: <199901272329.PAA31137@canopus.starshine.org>
To: paul.joslin@sdrc.com (Paul R. Joslin)
Cc: brs@ben-tech.com, sage-members@usenix.org
X-Mailer: MH 8.6.3
Subject: Re: Number of admins per number of users 
In-Reply-To: <199901271423.JAA05354@hpcor3.sdrc.com> 
	Message Apparently From paul.joslin@sdrc.com (Paul R. Joslin) 
	Dated Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:23:01 EST.
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:29:01 -0800
From: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


> Bennett> There are only two of us, administrators, at the site.
> Bennett> Lately I have become overwhelmed with things to do.  It
> Bennett> is probably a common thing but I was wondering
> Bennett> "typically" how many admins are there at a site like
> Bennett> ours.
> Bennett>
> Bennett> At the risk of "boss bashing" I am the only technical
> Bennett> person at the site.  They, (HR), have mad mention about
> Bennett> hiring a person to support me.  I don't know what the
> Bennett> norm would be.
> Bennett> 1) Should we all be working on the same things?
 
> For a small shop, IME this is the way to go.
 
> Benefit: Having all resources able to work any task helps increase
> the timeliness of response.  Vacations and sick time don't cause a
> crisis.  You're forced to better document your work, since someone
> else might be the next person to pick it up.
 
> Drawbacks: The overhead of keeping each other informed goes up.
> It's easier to justify training if each person specializes. If
> each person specializes, the time to resolve a problem drops
> because that person has more relevant experience.  (I once worked
> in the electronics shop of a mid-size hospital.  We had a tech who
> maintained over 400 aging televisions in a few hours a week.  He
> had literally seen it all - he could usually diagnose the ailing
> part over the phone.)
 
> Bennett> 2) Should we departmentalize?
 
> Not in a shop of this size, unless you have data to show that
> you can divide the areas in such a way that the work is roughly
> equal.

	I think a hybrid approach is usually the best.  (It's also
	generally what the situation evolves into).

	So, you should each perform the core and routine operations
	while each specializes in some of the more specific issues.
	For example, one of you might be much more experienced with
	'sendmail' (or whatever MTA you use) while the other can
	knock out named.conf (or named.boot) files with wild
	abandon.

	Since the configuration of new servers, mail and DNS domains
	is relatively rare and usually planned for well in advance
	there's no business need to both cross-train in them
	extensively (You each might personally *want* to, as these
	are important SA skills you can use anywhere you go --- but
	that's different than a business case).

	At the same time general help desk responses, user and
	group management, deployment of new workstations, backups
	and recovery testing --- these are all core operations that
	you both *must* be adept at.
 
> Bennett> 3) Am I "not really" overwhelmed, but just think I am?

	If you have to ask...

	An SAs job includes "capacity planning" and "performance
	monitoring."  Your management almost certainly expects
	you to know when disks are full, mail is getting backlogged
	due to insufficient bandwidth, RAM, or CPU power, etc.  
	You are probably expected to plan for these capacity 
	problems and either deal with them or recommend coping
	and/or expansion plans to your management.

	What you really want to understand is:

		You are a corporate resource.  You have a set of
		capacities like any other resource that you manage.

	So, to be effective you must monitor your own performance
	and recognize when you are "approach full."  

	Each of us has a limited amount of time and expertise. When
	the demands presented to us in our roles as SAs approaches
	those limits, the only responsible thing to do is to 
	cope with them as we would any other critical resources
	for which we are responsible.

	In general your options for coping with personal limitations
	are:

		burn out:  Work yourself to death --- put in
			immense amounts of overtime; usually as 
			unpaid contributions to your employer.

		* (Note:  I do NOT recommend this.  Unfortunately
		   it seems to be particularly popular among SAs
		   --- probably evidence of some widespread
		   towards feelings of inadequacy, inferiority
		   and insecurity among our ranks)

		increase your capacity:  You may be able to increase
			you expertise.  You might be able to
			automate some of the work you do now.  This
			is the old "work smarter not harder" saw.

		* (Note:  Notice that I said "may" and "might" ---
		   it may also be that you are already at peak 
		   efficiency.  Since "almost anything" under Unix
		   is scriptable or programmable it is likely that
		   *some* things that you do could be automated.
		   However, you are presumably a sysadmin and not a
		   programmer.  Although most of us do *some*
		   programming there are reasonable limitations to
		   what you management and users should expect of
		   you in this regard.  I've recommended "get a 
		   programmer" to my employers in the past.  It was
		   probably the best and most appropriate advice on 
		   those occasions). 

		delegate and/or re-distribute:  You might be able 
			to shift some of the responsibilities to 
			others in your organization.  This will
			probably require some training for the
			delegates --- presumably with a concommitant
			extra load on you (as the most likely
			trainer).

		* (This may be the best situation if there are
		   some employees at your site that are
		   "underutilized" but have the aptitude).

		recommend/aquire more resources:  Hire someone.


	Notice that I've made a list of possibilities.  I've noticed 
	that management usually responds better when given
	alternatives in the form of recommendations.  

	It is important to realize that you are involved in an
	ongoing process of negotiation.  This is true (to some
	degree) of all employees.  However, it seems to be
	frequently overlooked by sysadmins (and some other technical
	professionals).  I suspect that part of the reason for this
	stems from the nature of the job.

	Typically SAs are given responsibility for any technical
	duty for which there is no on-site specialist.  Thus some
	SAs handle all the telco maintenance and management at their
	sites.  Some SAs are DBAs, some do configuration management
	(they are the "buildmasters" for their sites --- which is
	more of a programming role than most).  Many SAs are web
	masters and some are CGI and Perl programmers.  Most of them
	either provide help desk services for their sites or are on
	the escalation path for their help desk personnel.

	Consequently our own management often doesn't know "what
	we do."  They will tend to shunt things our direction until
	things go haywire, or we start throwing things back.

	The trick is to know how to throw things back in a
	responsible and business-like manner.  This boils down to 
	"negotiation."
	
> You really can't determine how many sysadmins are needed by
> looking at the number of machines.  There are too many free
> variables, such as how much OJT you are expected to provide, how
> time-critical different problems are, and the diversity of
> problems you encounter.

	Yep.  A very rough rule of thumb is about 30 user/systems 
	per SA.  But I even hesitate to utter this number since
	there really are just too  many factors to consider.
 
> I would suggest that if you feel overwhelmed, you are.  However,
	
	ABSOLUTELY!

> this may not indicate a resource problem.  I would talk to your
> boss, and ask whether your job is to make the computers happy or
> to make the users happy.  (Don't accept his/her first answer,
> "Both!").  Tell him/her that you will work a reasonable number of
> hours a week (negotiate a number between 40-50).  Indicate that
> you are willing to work off-hours if needed to avoid
> inconveniencing users; ask for a scheduled downtime if it will
> help.  You want to be seen as a team player.  If you're routinely
> working more than 45 hours a week something is wrong, or you
> should be receiving additional compensation.  Then - tell your
> boss that you intend to do a ruthless prioritization based on what
> he/she told you your job was, and that some users may complain.
> From that day on, every request fits into this 2-D continuum:

	I would elaborate on this point a bit.  Prioritization
	and requirements analysis are the basis for all of your
	negotiations.   Your boss probably doesn't have a 
	comprehensive list of your current responsibilities.  He
	or she probably has no idea how much time you spend on 
	what.

	If you make such a list, with estimates of the cost
	(in terms of your time) of each (and preferably with
	estimates of the costs or outlines of the risks for
	any failures that relate to them) --- then you are in
	an excellent negotiating position.

		"These are the things that I've been doing.
		 Which ones should we consider deferring or
		 re-assigning?"

	(In some cases you can recommend contractors and/or
	consultants to peform "catch-up" on short-term
	backlogs.  In other cases it will be obvious that
	additional permanent/indefinite help is required
	--- full or part time).

 
> 	      Important     ---->     Less Important
>          ----------------------------------------------------
> Time     |
> Critical |
> |	 |
> |	 |
> |	 |
> |	 |
> V	 |
> Less	 |
> Time	 |
> Critical |
 
> Start working jobs in the upper left corner, and tell users that
> jobs in the bottom right corner probably won't get done.  Then let
> the users and your boss decide whether they need to apply more
> resources.

	Yes!  Prioritization is an ongoing process.

--
Jim Dennis  (800) 938-4078		consulting@starshine.org
Proprietor, Starshine Technical Services:  http://www.starshine.org


From sage-members-owner  Wed Jan 27 16:10:49 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA16507
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:10:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA16498
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:10:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: by hustle.rahul.net with UUCP id AA03045
	(5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for sage-members@usenix.org);
	Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:08:22 -0800
Received: from canopus.starshine.org (canopus.starshine.org [192.168.64.3])
	by antares.starshine.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA27256;
	Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:47:20 -0800
Received: from canopus.starshine.org (jimd@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by canopus.starshine.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA31369;
	Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:47:19 -0800
Message-Id: <199901272347.PAA31369@canopus.starshine.org>
To: "Anthony Howe" <achowe@snert.com>
Cc: SAGE <sage-members@usenix.org>
X-Mailer: MH 8.6.3
Subject: Re: Bandwidth throttling 
In-Reply-To: <36AECC71.EE7BEF7A@snert.com> 
	Message Apparently From "Anthony Howe" <achowe@snert.com> 
	Dated Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:21:05 +0100.
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:47:19 -0800
From: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

 
> Is there any software for bandwidth throttling and control on a per web
> site/client basis ?
 
> Anthony C Howe          1489 Ch. des Collines, 06110 Le Cannet, France

	The Linux kernel has a feature called the "traffic shaper"
	which can limit outbound bandwidth utilization for specific
	interfaces and sub-interfaces (IP aliases).

	I've referred to it a couple times in my Linux Gazette
	"Answer Guy" column --- so you could search for those 
	notes at http://www.linuxgazette.com.  You could also 
	read it in the kernel's own source tree in:

	/usr/src/linux/Documentation/networking/shaper.txt


--
Jim Dennis  (800) 938-4078		consulting@starshine.org
Proprietor, Starshine Technical Services:  http://www.starshine.org


From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 29 08:10:19 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA20734
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:10:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: from algw1.lucent.com (algw1.lucent.com [205.147.213.1])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA20722
	for <SAGE-Members@USENIX.ORG>; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:10:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: from cof110exch001p.wins.lucent.com by alig1.firewall.lucent.com
	(SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id LAA29550; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:35:37 -0500
Received: by cof110exch001p.dr.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service
	(5.5.2232.9) id <DAQNW56W>; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:07:37 -0700
Message-ID: <515EDC80276ED011A31B0000C0F01FED018F92AA@neoh00exch001u.oh.lucent.com>
From: "Elfering, David J (Dave)" <delfering@lucent.com>
To: "'SAGE-Members@USENIX.ORG'" <SAGE-Members@usenix.org>
Subject: Bootp and SNMP?
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:07:34 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
Content-Type: text/plain
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

We've been very succesfully using bootp to take care of our ample printer
fleet. Now our network folks would like us to begin setting some SNMP
information (community string, etc.) in addition to the regular IP info. 

I've browsed through the RFC's, but haven't seen anything that describes
this functionality. Am I ovelooking something (you know... nose on my face
type stuff), or is bootp even capable of this type of functionality. To me
this would seem to point toward a DHCP implementation and its more extensive
capabilities (according to what I'm seeing in the RFC).

Is there a good reference somewhere on enterprise IP issues? I'd like to
read how someone else has dealt with this issue. 

Thank you,

Dave Elfering
delfering@lucent.com


From sage-members-owner  Fri Jan 29 14:46:06 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06487
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:46:06 -0800 (PST)
Received: from panix2.panix.com
	(ITtY2h+g8RsLrH6dq17Ws8gP2ozcYdlq@panix2.panix.com [166.84.1.67])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06478
	for <SAGE-Members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:46:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from mrovner@localhost)
	by panix2.panix.com (8.8.5/8.8.8/PanixU1.4) id RAA24778
	for SAGE-Members@usenix.ORG; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:43:41 -0500 (EST)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:43:41 -0500
From: Marc David Rovner <mrovner@panix.com>
To: SAGE-Members <SAGE-Members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Bootp and SNMP?
Message-ID: <19990129174340.A24001@panix.com>
References: <515EDC80276ED011A31B0000C0F01FED018F92AA@neoh00exch001u.oh.lucent.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i
In-Reply-To: <515EDC80276ED011A31B0000C0F01FED018F92AA@neoh00exch001u.oh.lucent.com>;
	from Elfering, David J (Dave) on Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 09:07:34AM -0700
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 09:07:34AM -0700, Elfering, David J (Dave) wrote:
> We've been very succesfully using bootp to take care of our ample printer
> fleet. Now our network folks would like us to begin setting some SNMP
> information (community string, etc.) in addition to the regular IP info. 
> 
> I've browsed through the RFC's, but haven't seen anything that describes
> this functionality. Am I ovelooking something (you know... nose on my face
> type stuff), or is bootp even capable of this type of functionality. To me
> this would seem to point toward a DHCP implementation and its more extensive
> capabilities (according to what I'm seeing in the RFC).
> 
> Is there a good reference somewhere on enterprise IP issues? I'd like to
> read how someone else has dealt with this issue. 

For this kind of information, and other printer configuration information, at
least for HP printers, HP's hpnp program set up entries in the /etc/bootptab
file like this:

-------------------------------------------------------------------
zippy:\
        :hn:ht=ether:vm=rfc1048:\
        :ha=abcdef012345:\
        :ip=200.100.400.200:\
        :sm=255.255.255.0:\
        :gw=200.100.400.1:\
        :lg=200.100.400.50:\
        :T144="hpnp/zippy.cfg":
-------------------------------------------------------------------

MAC/IP addrs changed to protect the innocent.  Its that "vm" and "T144" line
that allows one to set additional information.  A file lives in
/tftpboot/<T144string> that is obtained via tftp by the printer/machine in
question containig the necessary information.

For example, in our setup, /tftpboot/hpnp/zippy.cfg contains this:

-------------------------------------------------------------------
idle-timeout: 120
allow: 200.100.400.15 200.100.400.5
banner: 1
get-community-name: public
#
# Place domain name here to avoid overflow of
# the vendor information area in the BOOTP reply.
#
name: zippy.cygnus.com
location: Cygnus Sunnyvale Mail Room
contact: printers@cygnus.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------


Hop some of this info helps.

						- Marc David Rovner

						  Sr. Systems Administrator
						  Cygnus Solutions


From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan 31 11:28:02 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA07360
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:28:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: from kodakr.kodak.com (kodakr.kodak.com [192.232.119.69])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA07351
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:27:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: from corpmail.kodak.com (corpmail.kodak.com [150.220.10.55])
	by kodakr.kodak.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA12168
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:25:03 -0500 (EST)
Received: from ekc-gipd-w8gz57 ([192.232.95.161]) by corpmail.kodak.com
	(post.office MTA v1.9.3b ID# 269-16266) with SMTP id AAA27911
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:24:02 -0400
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990131142449.00bf7e90@corpmail.kodak.com>
X-Sender: 124859@corpmail.kodak.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:24:51 -0500
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: "Richard C. Dempsey" <dempsey@Kodak.COM>
Subject: Status of Short Topics #4: Education/Training
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I have NOT received my copy, however.  Perhaps it's because I'm
a brand new member (joined @ LISA), hence towards the end of the
mailing list.

Rich

>From: Michael Rogero Brown <brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com>
>Subject: Status of Short Topics #4: Education/Training
>To: sage-members@usenix.ORG
>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:58:13 EST
>Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.ORG
>
>All-
>
>Does anyone know the status of the Fourth Short Topics booklet? (the one on
>Education/Training).  I first saw it listed at the Usenix page in early 
>December and recall that we were told they would be sent out soon.  Have
>they been sent out?  Or will it still be awhile before we get our copies?
>
>--
>Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for
myself.  
>Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
>Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
>email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.
>
>

Richard C. Dempsey                 email: dempsey@kodak.com
Public Online Services             pager: 716-975-3539
11th Floor, Bldg 83, RL            phone: 716-477-3457
Eastman Kodak Company
Rochester, NY 14650-2203


From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan 31 14:31:59 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13802
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:31:59 -0800 (PST)
Received: from vielle.datasys.net (mark@vielle.datasys.net [204.252.164.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13793
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:31:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from mark@localhost) by vielle.datasys.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA09374
	for sage-members@usenix.org; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:30:27 -0500
Message-Id: <199901312230.RAA09374@vielle.datasys.net>
From: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:30:26 -0500
Reply-To: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey)
X-Pgp-Fingerprint: DB 6B 9E 9F B5 F2 9B 6D A0 BE D8 10 6B 22 8F 06
X-Accept-Language: sh
X-Tom-Swiftie: I like writing artificially intelligent programs, Tom lisped.
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 1995-03-03)
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Postmaster booklet
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I noticed in New Orleans that they were recruiting to get somebody to
write a booklet about the duties and role of a postmaster. I'll be
interested to see that one; does anyone know if it's been picked up?



---
Mark R. Lindsey, mark@datasys.net
Internet Engineering, DSS Online
Voice: 912.241.0607, Fax: 912.241.0190 (US)


From sage-members-owner  Sun Jan 31 17:07:13 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA19047
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:07:13 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ocee.groupsys.com (ocee.groupsys.com [155.229.202.35])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA19038
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:07:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ocee.groupsys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by ocee.groupsys.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA27298
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:04:47 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199902010104.UAA27298@ocee.groupsys.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Postmaster booklet 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:30:26 EST."
	<199901312230.RAA09374@vielle.datasys.net> 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:04:47 -0500
From: William LeFebvre <wnl@groupsys.com>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Mark R. Lindsey wrote:
> I noticed in New Orleans that they were recruiting to get somebody to
> write a booklet about the duties and role of a postmaster. I'll be
> interested to see that one; does anyone know if it's been picked up?

I have not yet received any proposals to author the booklet "The Role
of Postmaster" nor its companion "The Role of Webmaster".  I have one
author who expressed interested but I have not yet received a proposal.

I have other topies I would like to see proposals for as well.  I will
include the current list at the end of this article.  Authors of Short
Topics books do receive renumeration for their efforts.

If you are interested, contact me and I will forward you a copy of the
Call For Proposals.

				William LeFebvre
				Editor, Short Topics in System Administration
				<wnl@groupsys.com>
				<wnl@usenix.org>
				+1 770 813 3224


---
We are currently seeking proposals to author the following topics.
We will also accept and consider proposals on any topic pertinent
to systems administration.


Effective Customer Support

   This document will serve as a guide for system administrators and
managers seeking to improve Customer Support by developing procedures that
enhance productivity and minimize customer down time.  Emphasis should be
on imparting actual knowledge and problem-solving skills in practical
environments. Topics that should be addressed include:
  - Customer Support models
  - Help desk management and setup
  - Help desk metrics, what do they mean?
  - Service Level Agreements
  - Standard practices and policies
  - What is expected of Help desk personnel
  - Web-based Customer service tools



Monitoring Techniques and Practices

   This document will serve as a guide for system administrators and
managers regarding the need for developing effective Network and
Systems monitoring techniques to improve performance and
responsiveness while reducing the cost of administration.  Emphasis
should be on imparting actual knowledge and problem-solving skills in
practical environments.  Topics that should be addressed include:
  - Network Benchmarking
  - Fault-tolerant, high availability computing environment models
  - Monitoring the computing environment (systems and network)
  - Network monitoring tools
  - Network and system performance tuning
  - TCP/IP troubleshooting
  - Proactive monitoring and administration


The Role of Postmaster

   This document will serve as a guide for system administrators in
charge of the mail systems for medium and large sites.  It should
cover the practical aspects of the role of "postmaster" but should not
focus on any particular mail transport agent.  The book should be
comprehensive, covering as many topics as possible which an individual
would need to know to be an effective postmaster.  Topics that should
be addressed include:

  - Techniques for handling large volumes of mail
  - Prioritizing mail to ensure continued reliable delivery of important
    messages
  - Detecting and eliminating spam
  - Integration of divergent mail systems
  - Legal issues regarding mail filtering
  - Privacy issues regarding personal messages
  - Electronic Mail Policies



The Role of Webmaster

   This document will serve as a guide for system administrators in
charge of the web servers for medium and large sites.  It should
cover the practical aspects of the role of "webmaster" but should not
focus on any individual web server software package.  The book should be
comprehensive, covering as many topics as possible which an individual
would need to know to be an effective webmaster.  Topics that should
be addressed include:

  - Techniques for tuning high-trffic web sites
  - Scalability and redundancy
  - Content management
  - An overview of composition tools (what a webmaster needs to know
    about them)
  - Techniques for tracking visitors (obtaining and interpreting
    various types of metrics)
  - Providing space for user pages (and policy issues)
  - CGI management
  - Security issues (what is and is not secure)




From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb  1 15:55:32 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA09061
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:55:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: from syntax.sys.gtei.net (syntax.sys.gtei.net [4.2.32.43])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA09016
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:55:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bbnplanet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by syntax.sys.gtei.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA04366
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:52:31 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <36B63E3E.7E30991@bbnplanet.com>
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 18:52:30 -0500
From: John Orthoefer <jco@bbnplanet.com>
Organization: BBN Planet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: CertWars - Linux is taking a stab at it
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Not to start the yelling and screaming again.  But I didn't seen this
URL pointed at the last time.

	http://www.linuxinstitute.org

Some Linux people are going to try and start their own program. 
Regardless of if you think Sage should be involved in programs, it's
worth taking a look at.

johno


From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  2 10:21:49 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA19620
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:21:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from quarry.axisdata.com (almasy@quarry.axisdata.com [199.201.123.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19611
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:21:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from almasy@localhost)
	by quarry.axisdata.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03209;
	Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:19:16 -0600
Message-ID: <19990202121915.17980@quarry.axisdata.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:19:15 -0600
From: Edward Almasy <almasy@axisdata.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: CertWars - Linux is taking a stab at it
References: <199902021000.CAA01936@usenix.ORG>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i
In-Reply-To: <199902021000.CAA01936@usenix.ORG>;
	from owner-sage-members-digest@usenix.ORG on Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at
	02:00:05AM -0800
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Mon, Feb 01, at 18:52:30PM, John Orthoefer wrote:
> Some Linux people are going to try and start their own program.
> Regardless of if you think Sage should be involved in programs, it's
> worth taking a look at.

   I'm one of the people participating in this effort, so there
   are some (or at least one :-)) SAGE members involved.  The
   driving impetus behind the effort is more legitimacy for Linux
   in the corporate world than legitimacy of the System Admin
   profession or role, but I'll be very surprised if there aren't
   a few lessons that SAGE can make use of coming out of this.

   Ed




From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  2 10:22:46 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA19693
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:22:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [131.106.3.16] (quark.usenix.org [131.106.3.16])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19684
	for <sage-members>; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:22:39 -0800 (PST)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Message-Id: <v0401170bb2dcf1719595@[131.106.3.16]>
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:21:42 -0800
To: sage-members
From: Gale Berkowitz <gale@usenix.org>
Subject: SAGE election results
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

The results of the election for the seven SAGE Executive Committee
positions of the USENIX Association for the 1999-2000 term are as follows.

Barbara L. Dijker	542
Hal Miller		520
Peg Shafer		431
Timothy Gassaway	426
Xev Gittler		411
Jim Hickstein		362
Geoff Halprin		353

Not Elected:

Bruce Alan Wynn		309
David Parter		289
Bryan MacDonald		257

Total number of ballots mailed:  4,337
Total number of ballots cast:  656
Return rate:  15%
Total number of invalid ballots:  1
Total number of ballots abstained:  2

Newly elected SAGE Executive Committee members will take office and choose
their own officers at their next executive committee meeting to be held on
February 22, 1999, in New Orleans, LA.

Gale Berkowitz
Deputy Executive Director, USENIX Association



Gale Berkowitz
Deputy Executive Director                       gale@usenix.org
USENIX Association                              tel 510.528.8649
2560 Ninth Street, #215, Berkeley, CA 94710     fax 510.548.5738
http://www.usenix.org


From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  2 11:26:32 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA22352
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:26:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: from keiki.greymouser.com (keiki.greymouser.com [209.182.194.74])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA22343
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:26:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from prscarr@localhost)
	by keiki.greymouser.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09656;
	Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:24:05 -0800
Message-ID: <19990202112404.25322@keiki.greymouser.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:24:04 -0800
From: Phil Scarr <prscarr@greymouser.com>
To: John Orthoefer <jco@bbnplanet.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: CertWars - Linux is taking a stab at it
References: <36B63E3E.7E30991@bbnplanet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e
In-Reply-To: <36B63E3E.7E30991@bbnplanet.com>;
	from John Orthoefer on Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 06:52:30PM -0500
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 06:52:30PM -0500, John Orthoefer wrote:
> Not to start the yelling and screaming again.  But I didn't seen this
> URL pointed at the last time.
> 
> 	http://www.linuxinstitute.org
> 
> Some Linux people are going to try and start their own program. 
> Regardless of if you think Sage should be involved in programs, it's
> worth taking a look at.
> 
> johno

I think this is a great idea for the Linux community.  But it is another
example of Vendor-style certification.  It is not an overarching
certification that is intended to cut across vendor lines.

	-Phil

-- 
                                                        GREYMOUSER CONSULTING
                 System, Network and Security Architecture and Administration 
                                                         for Central Virginia
* S o l a r i s   *   H P - U X   *   L I N U X   *   W  i n d o w s   N T  *


From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  2 12:26:57 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA24744
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:26:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from toni@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA24725
	for sage-members; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:26:50 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:26:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Toni Veglia <toni>
Message-Id: <199902022026.MAA24725@usenix.ORG>
To: sage-members
Subject: Education/Training Booklet
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

	From: Michael Rogero Brown <brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com>
	Message-Id: <199901271858.NAA17605@plhp049.comm.mot.com>
	Subject: Status of Short Topics #4: Education/Training
	To: sage-members@usenix.org

	All-

	Does anyone know the status of the Fourth Short Topics booklet? (the one on
	Education/Training).  I first saw it listed at the Usenix page in early 
	December and recall that we were told they would be sent out soon.  Have
	they been sent out?  Or will it still be awhile before we get our copies?

The booklet, Educating and Training System Administrators: A Survey,
was mailed to all SAGE members in early December.  For people who 
have joined since then, we have been mailing this booklet out about 
every two weeks.  

If you have not received a copy, please get in touch with us at 
<office@usenix.org> so we can check to make sure we have your 
correct address on file.

-Toni Veglia
 USENIX Association


From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  2 13:20:36 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA27235
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:20:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (POSTOFFICE2.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU
	[132.236.56.10]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA27226
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:20:30 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [128.253.230.42] (MURMER.CIT.CORNELL.EDU [128.253.230.42])
	by postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06564
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:18:09 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: tco2@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu
Message-Id: <v03110706b2dd1b583cd0@[128.253.230.42]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:19:43 -0500
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: "Todd C. Olson" <tco2@cornell.edu>
Subject: Trivia on Sysadmin status in the world
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Hi

It was a pleasent surprise to see in the trailing credits to the movie
"Prince of Egypt" an explicit listing for System Administrators.
I don't know how long this has been happening as I don't see very
many movies.  But it appears that in some quarters at least we are
beginning to be viewed as a profession worthy of note along with
the grips, the paint checkers, the costume crew, etc.

Sort of nice actually!

Regards,
Todd Olson




From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  2 13:53:49 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA28682
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:53:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from algw2.lucent.com (algw2.lucent.com [205.147.213.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA28669
	for <SAGE-Members@USENIX.ORG>; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:53:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: from cof110exch001p.wins.lucent.com by alig2.firewall.lucent.com
	(SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id RAA06119; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:05:07 -0500
Received: by cof110exch001p.dr.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service
	(5.5.2232.9) id <DAQNZJC1>; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:51:07 -0700
Message-ID: <8226CC37B2B8D211957D00805F1515C12B94DA@neoh00exch001u.oh.lucent.com>
From: "Elfering, David J (Dave)" <delfering@lucent.com>
To: "'SAGE-Members@USENIX.ORG'" <SAGE-Members@usenix.org>
Subject: Printing service woes
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:51:07 -0700 
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
Content-Type: text/plain
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

First of all, I just like to thank everyone who has been so helpful with
another question I posted about setting SNMP parameters via bootp. I'm still
wrestling with it a bit, but thanks to many helpful suggestions I'm on the
right track (wish HP would document their stuff a little better though).

One of the things that shocked me the most in my recent learning binge, is
the sheer numbers of printers some folks support. We have about 300 printers
and our Solaris server is perpetually biting the dust. We're looking at
alternatives such as Dazel, but before we hurl down the path of unecessary
complexity I'd like to get more input from experiences large-scale printer
people. 

Our native Solaris LP service started going bonkers around the 200-250
printers.

I've read over the CERN and Cisco papers, but frankly Linux would be a hard
sell (we're paying big bucks for Sun gear right?) Is LPRng a significant
improvement over the native Solaris LP system? We're not a distributed
environment (all on one local campus), so there has to be a relatively
simple way to do this.

Hints, kind thoughts or therapy welcomed.

Thank you,

Dave Elfering
delfering@lucent.com


From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  2 14:50:26 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01190
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:50:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01163
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:50:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from pobox2.mot.com (pobox2.mot.com [129.188.137.195]) by
	ftpbox.mot.com (8.8.5/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with ESMTP id QAA09953
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:47:53 -0600 (CST)
Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client pobox2.mot.com,
	sender brownmic@plhp049.comm.mot.com )
Received: from m-zhk08-r1.mot.com (m-zhk08-r1.mot.com [199.5.58.58]) by
	pobox2.mot.com (8.8.5/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with ESMTP id QAA21881
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:46:50 -0600 (CST)
Received: from plantation.comm.mot.com by m-zhk08-r1.mot.com with ESMTP;
	Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:47:42 -0700
Received: from plhp002.comm.mot.com ([145.2.148.3]) by plnt014.comm.mot.com
	with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version
	5.5.2232.9) id 1FNXW0WS; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:47:54 -0500
Received: from plhp049.comm.mot.com (brownmic@plhp049b [145.2.149.44])
	by plhp002.comm.mot.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id
	RAA03579; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:47:39 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from brownmic@localhost) by plhp049.comm.mot.com (8.8.6
	(PHNE_14041)/8.7.3) id RAA21458; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:47:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Rogero Brown <brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com>
Message-Id: <199902022247.RAA21458@plhp049.comm.mot.com>
Subject: Re: Trivia on Sysadmin status in the world
To: tco2@cornell.edu (Todd C. Olson)
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 17:47:37 EST
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <v03110706b2dd1b583cd0@[128.253.230.42]>;
	from "Todd C. Olson" at Feb 2, 99 4:19 pm
X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 212.4]
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

> 
> Hi
> 
> It was a pleasent surprise to see in the trailing credits to the movie
> "Prince of Egypt" an explicit listing for System Administrators.
> I don't know how long this has been happening as I don't see very
> many movies.  But it appears that in some quarters at least we are
> beginning to be viewed as a profession worthy of note along with
> the grips, the paint checkers, the costume crew, etc.
> 
> Sort of nice actually!
> 

Actually, it happens more often then you realize.  The recent Pixar films
have listed the sys admins, as does South Park (its done entirely on computers).
Most films that have a lot of CGI will probably do this, but am not sure.
Someone might want to check out Antz and Titanic.

Heck, I sat thru the credits for A Bugs Life and was suprised by the number 
of people and jobs they listed.  Seems like they listed every Pixar employee,
as you see finance people and the like listed.

--
Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.  
Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.


From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  2 15:21:32 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA02374
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:21:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02364
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:21:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from david@localhost) by vortex.more.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id RAA21312
	for sage-members@usenix.ORG; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:19:07 -0600 (CST)
From: David Drum <david@more.net>
Message-Id: <199902022319.RAA21312@vortex.more.net>
Subject: Re: Trivia on Sysadmin status in the world
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:19:07 -0600 (CST)
In-Reply-To: <v03110706b2dd1b583cd0@[128.253.230.42]> from "Todd C. Olson" at
	Feb 2, 99 04:19:43 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Quoth Todd C. Olson:

> It was a pleasent surprise to see in the trailing credits to the movie
> "Prince of Egypt" an explicit listing for System Administrators.

My foggy memory recalls SysAds listed in the credits for "A Bug's Life" also.

Regards,

David K. Drum
david@more.net
-- 
It's hard to be bored when you're as stupid as a line. [1]
Reality has a tendency to be so uncomfortably real. [2]
When you proceed deliberately, mistakes don't cascade, they instruct. [3]
What you notice becomes your life. [4]
[1] Vernor Vinge [2] Neil Peart [3] Stewart Brand [4] Michael Chitwood


From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  2 16:07:27 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA04159
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:07:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: from kodakr.kodak.com (kodakr.kodak.com [192.232.119.69])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA04131
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:07:16 -0800 (PST)
From: sdiller@Kodak.COM
Received: from knotes.kodak.com (knotes2.kodak.com [150.221.122.220])
	by kodakr.kodak.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA15802;
	Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:03:51 -0500 (EST)
Received: by knotes.kodak.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.2 (693.3 8-11-1998)) id
	8525670D.000082DA ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:05:34 -0500
X-Lotus-FromDomain: EKLAN01@KODAK@INTERNET
To: David Drum <david@more.net>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Message-ID: <8525670D.00001CDB.00@knotes.kodak.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:59:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Trivia on Sysadmin status in the world
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

From: Susan K. Diller

I've noticed sys admins being listed in the credits for some, but not all
movies, for about 2 years now.




From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  2 16:33:45 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA05099
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:33:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from inm.sentex.ca (r00t@inm.sentex.ca [205.211.164.96])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05090
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:33:37 -0800 (PST)
From: gdunn@ineural.com
Received: from admin3.ineural.com (root@admin3.ineural.com [192.168.0.71])
	by inm.sentex.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15785;
	Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:35:20 -0500
Received: from admin3.ineural.com (gdunn@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by admin3.ineural.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA23327;
	Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:35:15 -0500
Message-Id: <199902030035.TAA23327@admin3.ineural.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:35:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Trivia on Sysadmin status in the world
To: "Todd C. Olson" <tco2@cornell.edu>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <v03110706b2dd1b583cd0@[128.253.230.42]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

At the end of "A Bug's Life", the SA credits are almost as long as the
voice actors' :] ("Filmed entirely on location")

On  2 Feb, Todd C. Olson wrote:
[snip]
> It was a pleasent surprise to see in the trailing credits to the movie
> "Prince of Egypt" an explicit listing for System Administrators.
[snip]
> Regards,
> Todd Olson

-- 
 gdunn@ineural.com	 Graham Dunn         || ||| | ||| |||| | |||| | 
Systems Administrator - International Neural Machines Inc. - Waterloo, ON



From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  2 18:08:18 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA08707
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:08:18 -0800 (PST)
Received: from avalon.qualcomm.com (avalon.qualcomm.com [203.30.171.11])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA08698
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:08:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ggr-laptop.qualcomm.com (avalon [203.30.171.11]) by
	avalon.qualcomm.com (8.8.3/8.7.2/1.0) with SMTP id NAA26997 for
	<sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:05:05 +1100 (EST)
Message-Id: <4.1.19990203120229.009fad80@127.0.0.1>
X-Sender: ggr2@127.0.0.1
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 12:03:29 +1000
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Greg Rose <ggr@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: Trivia on Sysadmin status in the world
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

At 18:59 2/02/99 -0500, sdiller@kodak.com wrote:
>I've noticed sys admins being listed in the credits for some, but not all
>movies, for about 2 years now.

I remember having this discussion a long time ago, around 1992, when
Shoshona Abrass, who I'd met at the 1991 LISA, was listed in the credits
for something that came out of Lucasfilm. But I can't for the life of me
think what the movie was. Anyway, that was the first time I saw such a
listing, although I think the title was something like "computer
support"... anyone else remember?

Greg. 

Greg Rose                                       INTERNET: ggr@Qualcomm.com
Qualcomm Australia          VOICE:  +61-2-9181-4851   FAX: +61-2-9181-5470
Suite 410, Birkenhead Point,               http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ 
Drummoyne NSW 2047      232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F  E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C


From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  2 21:27:29 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA15359
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:27:29 -0800 (PST)
Received: from yosemite.main.gnac.com (firewall-user@yosemite.main.gnac.com
	[198.151.248.221]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA15332
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:27:20 -0800 (PST)
Received: by yosemite.main.gnac.com; id VAA04368;
	Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:24:31 -0800 (PST)
Received: from tweety.main.gnac.com(192.168.1.20) by yosemite.main.gnac.com
	via smap (4.1) id xma004366; Tue, 2 Feb 99 21:24:17 -0800
Received: from brain (dialin27.main.gnac.com [192.168.3.27]) 
	by tweety.main.gnac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/GNAC-GW-2.1) with SMTP id VAA08271;
	Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:23:21 -0800 (PST)
From: "Bryan McDonald" <bigmac@gnac.com>
To: "Greg Rose" <ggr@qualcomm.com>, <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: RE: Trivia on Sysadmin status in the world
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:24:09 -0800
Message-ID: <001a01be4f35$6d5c2950$1b03a8c0@brain.main.gnac.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0
Importance: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990203120229.009fad80@127.0.0.1>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Shoshana was working for PDI back then, it was probably in the T2 time frame.

bigmac

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-sage-members@usenix.ORG
> [mailto:owner-sage-members@usenix.ORG]On Behalf Of Greg Rose
> Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 6:03 PM
> To: sage-members@usenix.ORG
> Subject: Re: Trivia on Sysadmin status in the world
> 
> 
> At 18:59 2/02/99 -0500, sdiller@kodak.com wrote:
> >I've noticed sys admins being listed in the credits for some, but not all
> >movies, for about 2 years now.
> 
> I remember having this discussion a long time ago, around 1992, when
> Shoshona Abrass, who I'd met at the 1991 LISA, was listed in the credits
> for something that came out of Lucasfilm. But I can't for the life of me
> think what the movie was. Anyway, that was the first time I saw such a
> listing, although I think the title was something like "computer
> support"... anyone else remember?
> 
> Greg. 
> 
> Greg Rose                                       INTERNET: ggr@Qualcomm.com
> Qualcomm Australia          VOICE:  +61-2-9181-4851   FAX: +61-2-9181-5470
> Suite 410, Birkenhead Point,               http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ 
> Drummoyne NSW 2047      232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F  E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C
> 


From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  2 23:40:01 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA20061
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:40:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: from perp.com (machang@perp.com [204.228.135.158])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA20045
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:39:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (machang@localhost)
	by perp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA17836;
	Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:37:09 -0700
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:37:09 -0700 (MST)
From: Mike Chang <machang@pfoo.com>
X-Sender: machang@rezrov
Reply-To: Mike Chang <machang@pfoo.com>
To: Bryan McDonald <bigmac@gnac.com>
cc: Greg Rose <ggr@qualcomm.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: Trivia on Sysadmin status in the world
In-Reply-To: <001a01be4f35$6d5c2950$1b03a8c0@brain.main.gnac.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.04.9902030028140.16667-100000@rezrov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


> Shoshana was working for PDI back then, it was probably in the T2 time frame.


  PDI however I must say has a very bad record for recognizing sysadmins
in film credits.  ILM is pretty good about it, as well as a few of the LA
production houses...  There wasn't one movie (besides Antz) since '95 that
PDI has worked on in which a sysadmin had received film credit.  That time
frame may go back further, but I don't have first-hand proof of that.

  Considering that these companies are making their money using computers,
and someone is taking care of these computers, you'd think that sysadmin
would get more recognition for their work.



  mike

-- 



From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb  2 23:56:26 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA20634
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:56:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: from draco-le1.is.macsch.com (draco.macsch.com [192.73.8.1])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA20617
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:56:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bootes.is.macsch.com (bootes.is.macsch.com [161.34.1.42])
	by draco-le1.is.macsch.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA08370;
	Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:53:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: from canismajor.is.macsch.com by bootes.is.macsch.com
	(4.1/MSCbootes.950222) id AA04875; Tue, 2 Feb 99 23:53:41 PST
Received: by canismajor.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSC.TW.SunOS.1.02)
	id AA20906; Tue, 2 Feb 99 23:53:40 PST
From: "Todd Williams" <todd@macsch.com>
Message-Id: <9902022353.ZM20904@canismajor.is.macsch.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:53:40 -0800
In-Reply-To: Greg Rose <ggr@qualcomm.com>
	"Re: Trivia on Sysadmin status in the world" (Feb  3, 12:03)
References: <4.1.19990203120229.009fad80@127.0.0.1>
X-Face: "FF3Li6k/|j$-t~Ut~7Tcrqj{YOlB#Kqid0f^}/Hq>yDnjmBRW5bJ\@EwsJ(jeU]B@?t6u'w:Z"C{8$}6kT+!sX[m.HgO{xR7q3>G-_*XwN_twn-d4&S!^or?@79qDeoMX_CS)_/lGAq9_P{9SFa5"!uAO(!,!$:{bQ^4|OAb-q{Pb'tkE^oRm_Wuecl0m4!_USKsHC/#$b_L-*$^T-Vy+_2io@[b?|Ls!_KSFXy!3bbJNxuJqm8$tQ&)090BBF-tx;
	^{)[*W,Q\>vEva?wi0FpG/]oa^*&
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95)
To: Greg Rose <ggr@qualcomm.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Trivia on Sysadmin status in the world
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Feb 3, 12:03, Greg Rose wrote:
> 
> I remember having this discussion a long time ago, around 1992, when
> Shoshona Abrass, who I'd met at the 1991 LISA, was listed in the credits
> for something that came out of Lucasfilm...

Unfortunately, the IMDB must not be complete for that 1992 film.

http://us.imdb.com/Name?Abrass,+Shoshana

gives the following:

    Miscellaneous crew filmography
    1. Apollo 13 (1995) (sr. systems administrator) 

There doesn't seem to be a way to search IMDB for "system administrator"...
which might give some interesting results.

Todd Williams                     Manager, Computer and Communication Systems
MacNeal-Schwendler Corp. ("MSC"),  815 Colorado Blvd.,  Los Angeles, CA   90041
todd.williams@macsch.com          (323)259-4973          http://www.macsch.com/
geek  n. : a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usu.
includes biting the head off a live chicken or snake  -Webster's New Collegiate


From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb  3 03:45:17 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA29672
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:45:17 -0800 (PST)
Received: from quarry.axisdata.com (almasy@quarry.axisdata.com [199.201.123.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA29663
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:45:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from almasy@localhost)
	by quarry.axisdata.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA07256;
	Wed, 3 Feb 1999 05:42:47 -0600
Message-ID: <19990203054246.51716@quarry.axisdata.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 05:42:46 -0600
From: Edward Almasy <almasy@axisdata.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: CertWars - Linux is taking a stab at it
References: <199902031000.CAA26055@usenix.ORG>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i
In-Reply-To: <199902031000.CAA26055@usenix.ORG>;
	from owner-sage-members-digest@usenix.ORG on Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at
	02:00:08AM -0800
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 11:24:04AM -0800, Phil Scarr wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 06:52:30PM -0500, John Orthoefer wrote:
> > Not to start the yelling and screaming again.  But I didn't seen this
> > URL pointed at the last time.
> > 
> > 	http://www.linuxinstitute.org
> 
> I think this is a great idea for the Linux community.  But it is another
> example of Vendor-style certification.  It is not an overarching
> certification that is intended to cut across vendor lines.

   One of the specific goals of the above certification effort is
   to not be distribution-specific, so I believe it'll cut across at
   least those lines.  Since there seems to be some confusion I'd like
   to also mention that it's a non-profit effort, as opposed to the
   other Linux certification programs that have recently been mentioned
   in the trade press.

   (I've been told by someone else involved with the Linux effort that
   they've been contacted by someone in SAGE about working with the SAGE
   certification committee.  Was I not paying attention again and missed
   an announcement about a committee?  :-))

   Ed




From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb  3 04:22:16 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA00995
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 04:22:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from amdext.amd.com (amdext.amd.com [139.95.251.1])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA00986
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 04:22:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: from amdint.amd.com (amdint.amd.com [139.95.250.1])
	by amdext.amd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AMD) with ESMTP id EAA26742;
	Wed, 3 Feb 1999 04:19:22 -0800 (PST)
Received: from dvorak.amd.com (dvorak.amd.com [163.181.10.9])
	by amdint.amd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AMD) with SMTP id EAA14491;
	Wed, 3 Feb 1999 04:19:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: from labodega.amd.com by dvorak.amd.com (4.1/AMDSN-1.18)
	id AA02867; Wed, 3 Feb 99 06:19:20 CST
Received: from labodega.amd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by labodega.amd.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA08213;
	Wed, 3 Feb 1999 06:19:13 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199902031219.GAA08213@labodega.amd.com>
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
To: Greg Rose <ggr@qualcomm.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org, quentin@labodega.amd.com
Subject: Re: Trivia on Sysadmin status in the world 
In-Reply-To: Message from Greg Rose <ggr@qualcomm.com> of "Wed,
	03 Feb 1999 12:03:29 +1000." <4.1.19990203120229.009fad80@127.0.0.1> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 06:19:13 -0600
From: Quentin  Fennessy <quentin@labodega.amd.com>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Seems like I first notices system administration credits
on Jurassic Park. Perhaps to make up for the stereotypical
resentful, overweight traitorous loser of a programmer/admin
in the movie!

-- 
Quentin Fennessy			AMD, Austin Texas






From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb  3 05:11:45 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA02560
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 05:11:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from abby.skypoint.net (abby.skypoint.net [199.86.32.252])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA02551
	for <SAGE-Members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 05:11:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [192.168.2.51] ([209.98.222.136])
	by abby.skypoint.net (8.8.7/jl 1.3)  with ESMTP id HAA23752;
	Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:09:19 -0600 (CST)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-Sender: holthaus (Unverified)
Message-Id: <v04020a02b2ddf9506773@[192.168.2.51]>
In-Reply-To: <8226CC37B2B8D211957D00805F1515C12B94DA@neoh00exch001u.oh.lucent.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:08:28 -0600
To: "Elfering, David J (Dave)" <delfering@lucent.com>,
	"'SAGE-Members@USENIX.ORG'" <SAGE-Members@usenix.org>
From: Jim Holthaus <jim@holthaus.com>
Subject: Re: Printing service woes
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

At 2:51 PM -0700 2/2/99, Elfering, David J (Dave) wrote:
>One of the things that shocked me the most in my recent learning binge, is
>the sheer numbers of printers some folks support. We have about 300 printers
>and our Solaris server is perpetually biting the dust. We're looking at
>alternatives such as Dazel, but before we hurl down the path of unecessary
>complexity I'd like to get more input from experiences large-scale printer
>people.
>
>Our native Solaris LP service started going bonkers around the 200-250
>printers.

I admin a system that supports about 250 printers on a single HP E-series
box.  E-series systems are old and small!  Our E-box sometimes runs out of
CPU resources, but it keeps on printing.  I should think that Sun would be
able to assist you with getting their system to support those 300 printers.
What kind of problems are you experiencing?

>I've read over the CERN and Cisco papers, but frankly Linux would be a hard
>sell (we're paying big bucks for Sun gear right?) Is LPRng a significant
>improvement over the native Solaris LP system? We're not a distributed
>environment (all on one local campus), so there has to be a relatively
>simple way to do this.

I would say that if Sun cannot assist you through the normal support
channel, you can at least threaten them with the Linux stick through the
sales channel.  I've found that technical support often flows much more
liberally when prodded by the sales department!

--
Jim Holthaus
jim@holthaus.com
http://www.holthaus.com


From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb  3 06:19:31 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05001
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 06:19:31 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rigel.dartmouth.edu (rigel.dartmouth.edu [129.170.18.204])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA04992
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 06:19:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rigel.dartmouth.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by
	rigel.dartmouth.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA65386;
	Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:17:03 -0500
Message-Id: <199902031417.JAA65386@rigel.dartmouth.edu>
To: Edward Almasy <almasy@axisdata.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: CertWars - Linux is taking a stab at it 
In-reply-to: (Your message of Wed, 03 Feb 1999 05:42:46 EST.)
	<19990203054246.51716@quarry.axisdata.com> 
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:17:03 -0500
From: Pat Wilson <paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Edward Almasy wrote:
>     (I've been told by someone else involved with the Linux effort that
>     they've been contacted by someone in SAGE about working with the SAGE
>     certification committee.  Was I not paying attention again and missed
>     an announcement about a committee?  :-))
>  
>     Ed

There's a certification subcommittee - details of that and the
cert effort are at
	http://www.usenix.org/sage/cert/certification.html

Pat Wilson
paw@dartmouth.edu


From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb  3 09:41:03 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA12560
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:41:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from catbert.eecs.harvard.edu (catbert.eecs.harvard.edu
	[140.247.60.168]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA12547
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:40:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from catbert.eecs.harvard.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by catbert.eecs.harvard.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA07040
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:36:26 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199902031736.MAA07040@catbert.eecs.harvard.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: SAGE election results
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 12:36:26 -0500
From: Peg Schafer <peg@eecs.harvard.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


I would like to thank all the members who voted in the election.
I look forward to fulfilling my election promise and be the SAGE 
"sitting duck" at the next USENIX and LISA conferences.  I invite 
one and all to come and speak with me and provide input to the board.

Thanks again!

--Peg

 -------------------------------------------------------------
  Peg Schafer                            peg@eecs.harvard.edu
  Unix Systems Manager for EECS & Robotics
  Division of Engineering and Applied Sciences
  ESL, 40 Oxford Street, EECS Computer Support, Room 112
  Harvard University                      voice: 617-495-4927
  Cambridge, MA 02138-2901                fax:   617-496-5109
 -------------------------------------------------------------




From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb  3 10:30:15 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA14841
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:30:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from keiki.greymouser.com (keiki.greymouser.com [209.182.194.74])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14832
	for <SAGE-Members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:30:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from prscarr@localhost)
	by keiki.greymouser.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00491
	for SAGE-Members@usenix.ORG; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:27:48 -0800
Resent-Message-Id: <199902031827.KAA00491@keiki.greymouser.com>
Message-ID: <19990203101501.30490@keiki.greymouser.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:15:01 -0800
From: Phil Scarr <prscarr@greymouser.com>
To: Edward Almasy <almasy@axisdata.com>
Subject: Re: CertWars - Linux is taking a stab at it
References: <199902031000.CAA26055@usenix.ORG>
	<19990203054246.51716@quarry.axisdata.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e
In-Reply-To: <19990203054246.51716@quarry.axisdata.com>;
	from Edward Almasy on Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 05:42:46AM -0600
Resent-From: prscarr@greymouser.com
Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:27:47 -0800
Resent-To: SAGE-Members <SAGE-Members@usenix.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 05:42:46AM -0600, Edward Almasy wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 11:24:04AM -0800, Phil Scarr wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 06:52:30PM -0500, John Orthoefer wrote:
> > > Not to start the yelling and screaming again.  But I didn't seen this
> > > URL pointed at the last time.
> > > 
> > > 	http://www.linuxinstitute.org
> > 
> > I think this is a great idea for the Linux community.  But it is another
> > example of Vendor-style certification.  It is not an overarching
> > certification that is intended to cut across vendor lines.
> 
>    One of the specific goals of the above certification effort is
>    to not be distribution-specific, so I believe it'll cut across at
>    least those lines.  Since there seems to be some confusion I'd like
>    to also mention that it's a non-profit effort, as opposed to the
>    other Linux certification programs that have recently been mentioned
>    in the trade press.

Well, since Linux is technically a kernel with some additional stuff to
make it 'unix-like', the distributions aren't really all that important.
Certainly some are better than others, but at its core, all linuxes are
essentially the same.  It's the installation procedures and bundled
software that vary.

Also, I don't understand why a 'non-profit' certification program is
somehow more virtuous than a for-profit one.  Certainly Robert Harker's
sendmail and dns classes are 'for-profit' and no one questions the value
of those.  But in the end, Robert is doing *training* and not
*certification* thereby providing a far more valuable service to the
sysadmin community.

Certification is the ultimate boon-doggle.  It's an exclusionary suite
of tactics to ensure that those who hold the reins of 'certifier' can
pick and choose the 'certifiees'.

(you know, I swore to myself I wasn't going to get into this again...)

In the end I am going to lose this debate becuase the inevitable weight
of past experience tells me that this is a windmill not worth tilting
at.  I watched this happen years ago with the psychology community.  A
small group of practitioners set themselves up as the 'certifying body'
for *all* psychology and managed to convice people that they should be
the ones to certify psychologists (both clinical and research).   I
watched my Mom fight hard agains this BS (she was a research
psychologist) and in the end, win only the small concession that
research psychologists who don't treat patients can be un-licensed.


	-Phil

-- 
                                                        GREYMOUSER CONSULTING
                 System, Network and Security Architecture and Administration 
                             for Central Virginia (http://www.greymouser.com)
* S o l a r i s   *   H P - U X   *   L I N U X   *   W  i n d o w s   N T  *


From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb  3 17:58:05 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA01559
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:58:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from dal-tsa11-47.cyberramp.net (snoe@[209.196.65.17])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA01516
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:57:31 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from tgape@localhost) by sag.ed.vnet (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA24417;
	Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:35:58 -0500
From: TGAPE! <tgape@cyberramp.net>
Message-Id: <199902032235.RAA24417@sag.ed.vnet>
Subject: Re: CertWars - Linux is taking a stab at it
To: prscarr@greymouser.com (Phil Scarr)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:35:58 -0500 (EST)
Cc: almasy@axisdata.com
In-Reply-To: <19990203101501.30490@keiki.greymouser.com> from "Phil Scarr" at
	Feb 3, 99 10:15:01 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Phil Scarr wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 05:42:46AM -0600, Edward Almasy wrote:
>> On Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 11:24:04AM -0800, Phil Scarr wrote:
>>> On Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 06:52:30PM -0500, John Orthoefer wrote:
>>> > Not to start the yelling and screaming again.  But I didn't seen this
>>> > URL pointed at the last time.
>>> > 
>>> > 	http://www.linuxinstitute.org
>>> 
>>> I think this is a great idea for the Linux community.  But it is another
>>> example of Vendor-style certification.  It is not an overarching
>>> certification that is intended to cut across vendor lines.
>> 
>>    One of the specific goals of the above certification effort is
>>    to not be distribution-specific, so I believe it'll cut across at
>>    least those lines.  Since there seems to be some confusion I'd like
>>    to also mention that it's a non-profit effort, as opposed to the
>>    other Linux certification programs that have recently been mentioned
>>    in the trade press.
> 
> Well, since Linux is technically a kernel with some additional stuff to
> make it 'unix-like', the distributions aren't really all that important.
> Certainly some are better than others, but at its core, all linuxes are
> essentially the same.  It's the installation procedures and bundled
> software that vary.

Yeah, and the commercial distributers would probably *love* to make a
certification that you can't pass, unless you know their bundled admin
software, and would probably test you on that only.  Not only that, but
some seem to be eager to make their distribution as incompatible with
others so as to lock in their market.

> Also, I don't understand why a 'non-profit' certification program is
> somehow more virtuous than a for-profit one.  Certainly Robert Harker's
> sendmail and dns classes are 'for-profit' and no one questions the value
> of those.  But in the end, Robert is doing *training* and not
> *certification* thereby providing a far more valuable service to the
> sysadmin community.

'non-profit' has the connotation that they aren't going to be trying to
market this as a way of making money.  However, I think the term
'volunteer' would do that a lot better.  Or, maybe explicitly state it
in addition to 'non-profit', putting a cap on how much money people who
work for them can make off of it.

> Certification is the ultimate boon-doggle.  It's an exclusionary suite
> of tactics to ensure that those who hold the reins of 'certifier' can
> pick and choose the 'certifiees'.
>
> (you know, I swore to myself I wasn't going to get into this again...)

Yeah, but it's always nice to pick your own devil, so that you can later
kick yourself in the butt for making such a *stupid* decision.  This is
why democratic governments work.

-- 
Ed Grimm


From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb  4 13:45:46 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA15335
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 13:45:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from FNAL.FNAL.Gov (fnal.fnal.gov [131.225.9.8])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA15322
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 13:45:14 -0800 (PST)
From: mengel@fnal.gov
Received: from fnal.gov ("port 24673"@bel-kwinth.fnal.gov)
	by FNAL.FNAL.GOV (PMDF V5.1-12 #3998)
	with ESMTP id <01J7CNBQTIPW00056J@FNAL.FNAL.GOV> for
	sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:42:53 -0600 CDT
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 15:42:20 -0600 (EST)
Subject: Re: Solaris device tree question
In-reply-to: <Pine.SUN.3.96.990119134203.17951D-100000@tethys.microunity.com>
To: Bob Van Cleef <vancleef@microunity.com>
Cc: chuck <chuck@Yerkes.com>, Kerry Boomsliter <kerry@com21.com>,
	Geoff Halprin <geoff@sysadmin.com.au>, sage-members@usenix.org
Message-id: <01J7CNCJL3XY00056J@FNAL.FNAL.GOV>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On 19 Jan, Bob Van Cleef wrote:
>  On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, chuck wrote:
>  
> > The device remapping issue can be a nightmare in Solaris and
> > there's not a lot you can do short of booting Linux.  There's
> > nothing like throwing a new SCSI card into a machine and spending
> > the next 4 hours trying to recover from that.
>  
>  Unfortunately, Linux has the same kind of problem with the remapping of
>  SCSI devices...  Remove a SCSI tape drive from your backup system for
>  service, reboot the system, and reconfigure your backup software... 

We've come up with the following script, which reads /proc/scsi/scsi
on Linux and builds controller/bus based device names for scsi tape and
scsi passthrough devices:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - cut here - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
#!/bin/sh
# This script reads /proc/scsi/scsi and for each device it creates a
# special file /dev/scsi/sg<BUS>d<SCSI ID> with the
# minor number = the index of the device in /proc/scsi
#
# It also creates the files /dev/tape/tp<BUS>d<SCSI ID> and
#                           /dev/tape/tp<BUS>d<SCSI ID>n
# again with the minor number  = the index of the device in /proc/scsi for
# the rewind and norewind tape devices.
#
# This script is neccessary because the linux /dev/st and /dev/sg devices
# change as devices are added to a bus
#
# The script should normally be run at boot time or if the scsi
# configuration changes

TAPEDIR=/dev/rmt
SCSIDIR=/dev/sc
if [ ! -d $TAPEDIR ]            # create the dirs if they
then                            #    don't exist
  mkdir $TAPEDIR
fi
if [ ! -d $SCSIDIR ]
then
  mkdir $SCSIDIR
fi

# remove old files

rm    $TAPEDIR/tps*    $SCSIDIR/sc* 2> /dev/null

n=-1      # index of device in proc/scsi, minor # of sg device
t=-1      # index of tape devices in proc/scsi, # used in sg#

# read each record in proc scsi

cat /proc/scsi/scsi | while read a b c d e f g
do
   if [ ! $a = "Attached" ]
   then
      if [ \"$a\" = \"Host:\" ]
      then
         let n=n+1                      # increment index on first line
         bus=`echo $b|tr -d \"[a-z]\"`  #  in /proc/scsi/scsi
         let id=$f                      # get the bus and id (w/o leading 0)
         DRV=$TAPEDIR/"tps"$bus"d"$id
         SCDRV=$SCSIDIR/"sc"$bus"d"$id
      fi
      if [ \"$c\" = \"Model:\" ]        # just interesting info
      then
         vend=$b
         mod=$d
      fi
      if [ $a = "Type:" ]
      then
         if [ \"$b\" = \"Sequential-Access\" ]    # identify tape device
         then
            let t=t+1
            mknod $DRV c 9 $t           #   make the device
            mknod $SCDRV  c 21 $n       #        the scsi passthru device
         else                           # for non tape
            mknod $SCDRV  c 21 $n       #   just make scsi device
         fi
      fi
    fi
done




From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb  4 15:35:41 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19644
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:35:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: from storm.nando.net (storm.nando.net [152.52.2.139])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19635
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:35:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from majordomo@localhost)
	by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA21374
	for ncsa-announce-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:26:55 -0500 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: storm.nando.net: majordomo set sender to
	owner-ncsa-announce@nando.net using -f
Received: from lamb.sas.com (root@lamb.sas.com [192.35.83.8])
	by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21366
	for <ncsa-announce@nando.net>; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:26:49 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mozart (mozart.unx.sas.com [192.58.184.8])
	by lamb.sas.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA25597
	for <ncsa-announce@nando.net>; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:23:12 -0500 (EST)
Received: from ntgate01.pc.sas.com by mozart (5.65c/SAS/Domains/5-6-90)
	id AA10129; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:23:11 -0500
Received: by ntgate01.pc.sas.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
	id <1C9XA5MD>; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:23:11 -0500
Message-Id: <FDAEB36E0478D211842100A0C9AB18CA74DAE1@ntmail06.pc.sas.com>
From: Heather Flanagan <heflan@wnt.sas.com>
To: "'ncsa-announce@nando.net'" <ncsa-announce@nando.net>
Cc: "'triangle.talks@usenet.sas.com'" <triangle.talks@usenet.sas.com>
Subject: NC*SA meeting, Monday, Feb. 8, 1999 - Privacy on the Web
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:23:10 -0500 
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



The next meeting of the North Carolina System Administrators
organization (NC*SA) will be Monday, February 8, 1999, at 6pm.  Details
about the meeting and directions are provided in this note.  We hope
to see you there! 

                    NC*SA General Meeting
               6:00 p.m., Monday, February 8, 1999
                     Dreyfus Laboratory
                 Research Triangle Institute
                  Research Triangle Park, NC
                     (directions below)

                     Privacy on the Web

               
            --------------------------------------
Abstract:
Paul Jones will lead a discussion on the various ways that we willingly
compromise the privacy of our clients, our companies and ourselves by using
the WWW (as opposed to e-mail, chats etc).  Included will be discussions of
logs and logging policies, proxy-servers and firewalls, the ever delicious
topics of cookies, registration, filtering, encrypted WWW service, and the
recent Intel flap.

About the speaker:
Although often mistaken for other unreconstructed relics of the failed
social policies of the Sixties, Paul Jones is the Director of UNC MetaLab, a
project that includes the Site Formerly Known as SunSITE and other networked
media and digital library experiments.  Paul teaches at UNC on the faculties
of the School of Journalism and Mass Communication and the School of
Information and Library Science.  He is co-author of The_Web_Server_Book
(Ventana, 1995) (rereleased and updated as
The_Unix_Web_Server_Book,_Second_Edition Ventana, 1997).  With Bert Dempsey,
he is editor of Internet_Issues_and_Advanced_Applications_1997-98
(Scarecrow, 1998).  Paul is the editor of the Internet Poetry Archives,
published with UNC Press, as well as an actively publishing poet.  He has
served on the board of the Chapel Hill ACLU.

==============================

Other NC*SA administrivia:
On schedule for March, we have Ernest Bowman-Cisneros (Duke), to discuss
Network Flight Recorder.

Mark your calendars!

And if you have suggestions for future meetings, please let us know!

I will be out of town all next week, so I'm afraid this may be the ONLY
ANNOUNCEMENT YOU GET!  Don't forget! :)

============================== 
 
Our meetings are free and open to anyone with an interest in the topic
of the evening.  We will be providing food and drink for the evening.
If you have any questions please contact: 

  Heather Flanagan 
  SAS Institute Inc. 
  SAS Campus Drive 
  Cary, NC  27513  
  (919) 677-8000 x5522
  heflan@unx.sas.com

==============================

For information about the NC System Administrators group, contact our
Majordomo mailing list server.  The "ncsa-discussion" mailing list has
been created to facilitate discussions of interest to system
administrators from the state of North Carolina.

Simply send email to "majordomo@nando.net":

        mail majordomo@nando.net
        Subject:

        subscribe ncsa-discussion

After subscribing, Majordomo will send you the help file and info file
for our mailing list.  These files contain instructions for retrieving
other files available to the NCSA organization (e.g.  the presentation
material from past technical programs are available for retrieval via
Majordomo!!) 

To unsubscribe from this meeting announcement list, send a message to the 
same address, with the following line in the body: 

        unsubscribe ncsa-announce

(Please note, if you are a member of sage-members@usenix.org, you will also
get a copy of these announcements.  I cannot unsubscribe you from that
list.)

==============================

Directions to Research Triangle Institute
(see also:  http://www.rti.org/images/campus.gif)

 From I-40 west of RTP (e.g. Chapel Hill):

  Get onto I-40 heading east.  Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham
  Freeway - North (towards Durham).  Stay in right lane.  Shift right as
  soon as possible after merging with traffic coming off I-40 westbound.

  Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road).  At top of exit,
  turn to the left.  (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you
  are going the wrong direction.)  After turning left onto Cornwallis,
  shift immediately to the right lane.  Take the second right onto East
  Institute Drive.  Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. 
  Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right.  Use the
  parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance.

 From I-40 east of RTP (e.g. Raleigh):

  Get onto I-40 heading west.  Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham
  Freeway - North (towards Durham).  Shift to rightmost lane as soon as
  possible Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road).  At top
  of exit, turn to the left.  (If you turn right and cross over the
  bridge, you are going the wrong direction.)  After turning left onto
  Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane.  Take the second
  right onto East Institute Drive.  Take the second right off of East
  Institute Drive.  Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on
  your right.  Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the
  main entrance.

 From north of RTP (e.g. Durham):

  Get onto NC-147 - Durham Freeway - south.  Exit at the Cornwallis Road
  exit.  At the top of the exit, turn left to cross over the bridge. 
  After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right
  lane.  Take the second right onto East Institute Drive.  Take the
  second right off of East Institute Drive.  Dreyfus Laboratory will be
  the first building on your right.  Use the parking lot in front of the
  Lab and enter at the main entrance.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Heather Flanagan			Associate Systems Programmer
Information Systems Consulting		SAS Institute, Inc.
(919)677-8000 x5522			heflan@unx.sas.com



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb  4 15:39:46 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19831
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:39:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gwyn.tux.org (gwyn.tux.org [207.96.122.8])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19822
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:39:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from jsdy@localhost) by gwyn.tux.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA25531;
	Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:36:42 -0500
From: Joseph S D Yao <jsdy@tux.org>
Message-Id: <199902042336.SAA25531@gwyn.tux.org>
Subject: Re: Solaris device tree question
To: mengel@fnal.gov
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:36:42 -0500 (EST)
Cc: vancleef@microunity.com, chuck@Yerkes.com, kerry@com21.com,
	geoff@sysadmin.com.au, sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <01J7CNCJL3XY00056J@FNAL.FNAL.GOV> from "mengel@fnal.gov" at Feb
	4, 99 03:42:20 pm
Reply-To: jsdy@tux.org
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

> # The script should normally be run at boot time or if the scsi
> # configuration changes

Curious comment.  Do you ever re-configure your SCSI cards and devices
while the system is still up - the only case where it would not require
booting?  I suppose this could be true if you had "hot spare" RAID
devices.  How well does that work?

;-)

--
/*********************************************************************\
**
** Joe Yao				jsdy@tux.org - Joseph S. D. Yao
**
\*********************************************************************/


From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb  5 08:21:18 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA16388
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:21:18 -0800 (PST)
Received: from FNAL.FNAL.Gov (fnal.fnal.gov [131.225.9.8])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA16377
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:21:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bel-kwinth.fnal.gov ("port 25025"@bel-kwinth.fnal.gov)
	by FNAL.FNAL.GOV (PMDF V5.1-12 #3998)
	with ESMTP id <01J7DQCB6I820005CD@FNAL.FNAL.GOV> for
	sage-members@usenix.ORG; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:18:51 -0600 CDT
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 10:18:26 -0600 (EST)
From: "Marc W. Mengel" <mengel@fnal.gov>
Subject: Linux SCSI (was Re: Solaris device tree question)
In-reply-to: <199902042336.SAA25531@gwyn.tux.org>
To: Joseph S D Yao <jsdy@tux.org>
Cc: vancleef@microunity.com, chuck@Yerkes.com, kerry@com21.com,
	geoff@sysadmin.com.au, sage-members@usenix.org
Message-id: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9902051013570.9691-100000@bel-kwinth.fnal.gov>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Joseph S D Yao wrote:

> > # The script should normally be run at boot time or if the scsi
> > # configuration changes
> 
> Curious comment.  Do you ever re-configure your SCSI cards and devices
> while the system is still up - the only case where it would not require
> booting?  I suppose this could be true if you had "hot spare" RAID
> devices.  How well does that work?

Well, I have a "test bus" that I hang either a tape stacker/tape drive
pair, or a 4-bay full of tape drives, and do the 
	echo "scsi delete-single-device 0 0 1 0" > /proc/scsi/scsi
	echo "scsi delete-single-device 0 0 2 0" > /proc/scsi/scsi
	...
	echo "scsi add-single-device 0 0 1 0" > /proc/scsi/scsi
	echo "scsi add-single-device 0 0 2 0" > /proc/scsi/scsi
and then run the script.  Sometimes you get problems allocating
the st driver buffers, but usually it works okay...

Marc






From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb  5 10:48:36 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA20450
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:48:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ihgw1.lucent.com (ihgw1.lucent.com [207.19.48.1])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA20433
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:48:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from co7010exch001h.wins.lucent.com by ihig1.firewall.lucent.com
	(SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id MAA28301; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:47:05 -0600
Received: by CO7010EXCH001H with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
	id <ZJZZQGCH>; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:45:57 -0700
Message-ID: <8226CC37B2B8D211957D00805F1515C12B94DE@neoh00exch001u.oh.lucent.com>
From: "Elfering, David J (Dave)" <delfering@lucent.com>
To: "'sage-members@usenix.ORG'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: NIS+
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:45:52 -0700 
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
Content-Type: text/plain
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Now that I've taken advantage of everyone's hospitality with regards to my
printing problems, I'd like to ask another question.

We have an NIS+ domain setup long ago by a sysadmin far, far away. Recently
the root user login quit working (Mr Murphy come calling again). The net
effect is that we now have a machine running as the NIS+ master and no
control over that NIS+ domain. We can of course break root locally, but that
doesn't give you control over the domain (as far as I can figure out).

We can of course blow away and recreate the domain, but that entails an
outage on the system that we'd rather not incur if its avoidable. 

Gist of the matter: once root becomes locked out of the domain on the master
controller, are there any options to recover. (reminds me a a looneytoon
cartoon in which a boulder is falling and Wile E. Coyote asks a computer for
his options... )

I recongize that the domain shouldn't have gotten out of hand, but that's
beyond my control.

Thoughts?

Thank you,

Dave Elfering
delfering@lucent.com


From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb  8 06:25:25 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA16067
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 06:25:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ihgw2.lucent.com (ihgw2.lucent.com [207.19.48.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA16058
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 06:25:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: from co7010exch001h.wins.lucent.com by ihig2.firewall.lucent.com
	(SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id IAA11290; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:10:27 -0600
Received: by CO7010EXCH001H with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
	id <ZJZZQYPF>; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 07:22:53 -0700
Message-ID: <8226CC37B2B8D211957D00805F1515C12B94E4@neoh00exch001u.oh.lucent.com>
From: "Elfering, David J (Dave)" <delfering@lucent.com>
To: "'sage-members@usenix.ORG'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: NIS+ root authentication fixed
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 07:20:23 -0700 
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
Content-Type: text/plain
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

My many thanks to all the helpful answers to my questions about NIS+

To recap, we had lost root access via NIS+ on the master server. Everything
else still functioned, but for reasons we still don't understand, root
access died. This NIS server was set up by an administrator who has since
moved on, and our collective knowledge of the service led us to believe that
we were more dangerous than good.

Ray Hiltbrand pointed us to a wonderful FAQ on NIS+ at
http://www.eng.auburn.edu/users/rayh/solaris/NIS+_FAQ.html and this was
perfect. After reading over the FAQ we now had enough insight to deduce the
problem and use one of the solutions in the FAQ (section 3.19 - How to fix
NIS+ server breaks with unable to authenticate NIS+ server).

We recovered the server without an invasive actions on all of the clients,
and now the sun can shine again.

My thanks to all the helpful email from everyone.

Regards,

Dave Elfering
Lucent Technologies




From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb  8 14:45:41 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05991
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:45:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: from psasolar.colltech.com (psasolar.colltech.com [208.229.236.14])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05982;
	Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:45:35 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (cmh@localhost)
	by psasolar.colltech.com (VER/What/1.0) with ESMTP id QAA22556;
	Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:43:18 -0600 (CST)
X-Authentication-Warning: psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com: cmh owned process
	doing -bs
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:43:17 -0600 (CST)
From: "Carolyn M. Hennings" <cmh@colltech.com>
X-Sender: cmh@psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com
To: chicago-sagelocal@usenix.org, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: February chigrp Meeting: Unix to Windows NT Connectivity Tools
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9902081636230.7931-100000@psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Join us at our next meeting where there will be an informative
presentation on:

 Unix to Windows NT Connectivity Tools

 Thursday, February 12th
 7:00 - 9:00 pm

 ACNielsen Building
 150 North Martingale,
 Schaumburg IL


Abstract

Like it or not, there is an increasing need for 
individuals to access Windows NT servers and applications 
from Unix desktop environments.  This months presentation 
will describe some of the tools available for this 
functionality as well as their evolution. An overview 
of the components that make up the tools will provide 
the technical audience with sufficient detail to allow 
for understanding implementation considerations.


About the Speaker

Lawrence Beasley has been working with Windows NT and 
Unix connectivity for the past two years at Motorola in 
Arlington Heights.  He has a diverse background in 
computer programming and technology.  


Socializing

Following the presentation we will gather at Bennigan's at the
intersection of Higgins and Martingale. 

chigrp Web Site
        
  http://www.usenix.org/sage/locals/chigrp/

Directions

Located at 150 North Martingale Road, Between Higgins and Biesterfield,
just off of I-290/Route 53.

>From the South:

Exit I-290/Route 53 at Biesterfield, turn left (West) on Biesterfield. Turn
right (North) on Martingale Road. Proceed North on Martingale Road, past
stoplight at Schaumburg Road. Turn left (West) at ACNielsen sign (after
the Schaumburg Marriott Hotel).

>From the North:

Exit I-290/Route 53 at Higgins, turn right (West) on Higgins. Turn left
(South) on Martingale Road.  Proceed South on Martingale Road, past
stoplight at Corporate Crossing. Turn right (West) at ACNielsen sign
(before the Schaumburg Marriott Hotel).

Parking:

Parking is available in the parking a garage to the rear of the facility.
After parking take the elevator or stairs to the 2nd floor, then take the
walkway into the building lobby. Check in at  the ACNielsen desk, mention
you are with SAGE/chigrp, and you will be directed to the conference room
for the meeting.

---
Dan Szkola              EMail: dszkola@niu.edu    
Systems Programmer      Northern Illinois University

" I changed my headlights the other day. I put in strobe lights
instead! Now when I drive at night, it looks like everyone else is
standing still ..."
                -- Steven Wright




From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb  8 14:59:02 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06555
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:59:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: from postal.statsci.com (postal.statsci.com [206.63.206.55])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06538
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:58:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bloke.statsci.com (bloke [206.63.206.184])
	by postal.statsci.com (8.9.2/8.9.2/Hub) with ESMTP id OAA23378
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:56:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from jimt@localhost)
	by bloke.statsci.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.7/Client) id OAA09157
	for sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:56:32 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:56:32 -0800
From: Jim Tollefson <jimt@statsci.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: How to boot HPUX 10.20 in single user mode?
Message-ID: <19990208145631.E733@bloke.statsci.com>
Mail-Followup-To: sage-members@usenix.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


I need to boot our only HPUX 10.20 system into single user mode to change it's
IP address.  Being primarially a Sun admin, I don't know how to do it. 

This is and HP 700/160 machine.

Please Help.

Thanks
JimT
-- 
Jim Tollefson           jimt@statsci.com         (206) 283-8802 x253 (wk)
"UNIX was never designed to keep people from doing stupid things, because
 that policy would also keep them from doing clever things."  (Doug Gwyn)


From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb  8 15:07:01 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA06832
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:07:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: from psasolar.colltech.com (psasolar.colltech.com [208.229.236.14])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA06823;
	Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:06:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (cmh@localhost)
	by psasolar.colltech.com (VER/What/1.0) with ESMTP id RAA25884;
	Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:04:37 -0600 (CST)
X-Authentication-Warning: psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com: cmh owned process
	doing -bs
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:04:37 -0600 (CST)
From: "Carolyn M. Hennings" <cmh@colltech.com>
X-Sender: cmh@psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com
To: chicago-sagelocal@usenix.org, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: February chigrp Meeting: Unix to Windows NT Connectivity Tools
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9902081636230.7931-100000@psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9902081702300.7931-100000@psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Please note the date should be Thursday, February 11th.

Sorry for the additional mail.


On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, Carolyn M. Hennings wrote:

> 
> Join us at our next meeting where there will be an informative
> presentation on:
> 
>  Unix to Windows NT Connectivity Tools
> 
>  Thursday, February 12th
                      ^^- 11
>  7:00 - 9:00 pm
> 
>  ACNielsen Building
>  150 North Martingale,
>  Schaumburg IL
> 
> 
> Abstract
> 
> Like it or not, there is an increasing need for 
> individuals to access Windows NT servers and applications 
> from Unix desktop environments.  This months presentation 
> will describe some of the tools available for this 
> functionality as well as their evolution. An overview 
> of the components that make up the tools will provide 
> the technical audience with sufficient detail to allow 
> for understanding implementation considerations.
> 
> 
> About the Speaker
> 
> Lawrence Beasley has been working with Windows NT and 
> Unix connectivity for the past two years at Motorola in 
> Arlington Heights.  He has a diverse background in 
> computer programming and technology.  
> 
> 
> Socializing
> 
> Following the presentation we will gather at Bennigan's at the
> intersection of Higgins and Martingale. 
> 
> chigrp Web Site
>         
>   http://www.usenix.org/sage/locals/chigrp/
> 
> Directions
> 
> Located at 150 North Martingale Road, Between Higgins and Biesterfield,
> just off of I-290/Route 53.
> 
> >From the South:
> 
> Exit I-290/Route 53 at Biesterfield, turn left (West) on Biesterfield. Turn
> right (North) on Martingale Road. Proceed North on Martingale Road, past
> stoplight at Schaumburg Road. Turn left (West) at ACNielsen sign (after
> the Schaumburg Marriott Hotel).
> 
> >From the North:
> 
> Exit I-290/Route 53 at Higgins, turn right (West) on Higgins. Turn left
> (South) on Martingale Road.  Proceed South on Martingale Road, past
> stoplight at Corporate Crossing. Turn right (West) at ACNielsen sign
> (before the Schaumburg Marriott Hotel).
> 
> Parking:
> 
> Parking is available in the parking a garage to the rear of the facility.
> After parking take the elevator or stairs to the 2nd floor, then take the
> walkway into the building lobby. Check in at  the ACNielsen desk, mention
> you are with SAGE/chigrp, and you will be directed to the conference room
> for the meeting.
> 
> ---
> Dan Szkola              EMail: dszkola@niu.edu    
> Systems Programmer      Northern Illinois University
> 
> " I changed my headlights the other day. I put in strobe lights
> instead! Now when I drive at night, it looks like everyone else is
> standing still ..."
>                 -- Steven Wright
> 
> 

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carolyn M. Hennings                                     cmh@colltech.com
Collective Technologies                          http://www.colltech.com
a pencom company      



From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb  8 16:58:09 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA11032
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:58:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ulysses.noc.ntua.gr (ulysses.noc.ntua.gr [147.102.222.230])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA11023
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:58:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: from dblab.ece.ntua.gr (ithaca.dbnet.ece.ntua.gr [147.102.12.1])
	by ulysses.noc.ntua.gr (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id CAA23925
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 02:55:43 +0200 (EET)
Received: (from george@localhost)
	by dblab.ece.ntua.gr (8.9.2/8.9.2) id CAA08206
	for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 02:55:23 +0200 (EET)
Message-ID: <19990209025523.A8104@dblab.ece.ntua.gr>
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 02:55:23 +0200
From: Yiorgos Adamopoulos <adamo@dblab.ece.ntua.gr>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: How to boot HPUX 10.20 in single user mode?
Reply-To: adamo@dblab.ece.ntua.gr
References: <19990208145631.E733@bloke.statsci.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i
In-Reply-To: <19990208145631.E733@bloke.statsci.com>;
	from Jim Tollefson on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 02:56:32PM -0800
X-Organization: National Technical University of Athens, GREECE
X-URL: http://tupac.net/hood/adamo
X-Alt-Email: adamo@InterWorks.org
X-Work-Phone: +30-1-772-1-436
X-Work-FAX: +30-1-772-1-442
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 02:56:32PM -0800, Jim Tollefson wrote:
> I need to boot our only HPUX 10.20 system into single user mode to change it's
> IP address.  Being primarially a Sun admin, I don't know how to do it. 
> 
> This is and HP 700/160 machine.

For Snakes the procedure is:

You interrupt the boot sequense and:

b pri ipl
hpux -is /hp-ux (or hpux -is /stand/vmunix)

--
Yiorgos Adamopoulos         -- #include <std/disclaimer.h>
adamo@dblab.ece.ntua.gr     -- Knowledge and Data Base Systems Laboratory, NTUA



From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 12 10:33:31 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA25557
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:33:31 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gateway-le0.Cyanamid.COM (gateway-le0.Cyanamid.COM
	[198.138.106.253]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA25534
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:33:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: from igate.cyanamid.com by gateway-le0.Cyanamid.COM
	via smtpd (for [131.106.3.1]) with SMTP; 12 Feb 1999 18:30:31 UT
Received: from pt.cyanamid.com ([141.173.60.184] (may be forged))
	by igate.cyanamid.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA25013
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:30:24 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <36C473F0.29BEB905@pt.cyanamid.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:33:20 -0500
From: John Geletej <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM>
Organization: can usually find what I'm looking for...
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Sun CDE login driving me mad...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Oh SAGE ones, please help me...

I am trying to determine the cause of the following SNAFU

I have a user who goes to log in to their account on a Sun workstation
running Solaris 2.6 and CDE 1.2. They type in their username and hit
return and the graphic at the right hand side of the login "prompt"
turns into the OpenWindows graphic, and if they continue with their
password, they are placed into OW instead of CDE (which is where I need
them to be for the software we are running [Varian's VNMR]).

For every other user, the graphic is the CDE graphic and their
environment is CDE - what gives???

Please reply direct since I don't want to clog up the list with this -
thanks.

-john g-
"clueless in NJ"


From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 12 14:01:14 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA04856
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:01:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from granite.plpt.com (granite.plpt.com [199.181.238.77])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA04794
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:00:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: by granite.plpt.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
	id <ZPGNC869>; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:59:09 -0800
Message-ID: <0D7E878509BED111BEAC00A0C9A3CA600CD0DB@granite.plpt.com>
From: "Company, Paul" <paul.company@plpt.com>
To: "'sage-members@usenix.org'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Imazu Hideyo - OMNICONF
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:59:08 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.ORG id OAA04848
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I'm trying to contact Imazu Hideyo < himazu@ms.com <mailto:himazu@ms.com> >
 
He wrote a paper titled,
    "OMNICONF - Making OS Upgrades and Disk Crash Recovery Easier" 
for   USENIX LISA - September 19-23, 1994 - San Diego, CA
http://www.usenix.org/publications/library/proceedings/lisa94/hideyo.html
<http://www.usenix.org/publications/library/proceedings/lisa94/hideyo.html> 
 
His email address is the only contact information in the paper.
 
I sent him email multiple times over the last 3 months, but never received
any replies.
 
I'd like to know the status of OMNICONF and whether it is available thru the
Internet? 
 
Are SAGE memebers aware of OMNICONF and its status? 
 
Thank you,
 
    Paul Company
    Network Systems Manager
    PulsePoint Communications
 


From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb 15 01:46:26 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA12441
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 01:46:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-relay.olsen.ch (mail-relay.olsen.ch [193.72.80.34])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA12432
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 01:46:20 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rouble.olsen.ch by mail-relay.olsen.ch with smtp
	(Smail3.1.28.1 #7) id m10CKYu-0005f3C; Mon, 15 Feb 99 09:43 MET
Received: from kobo.olsen.ch by rouble.olsen.ch (4.1/SMI-4.1)
	id AA15892; Mon, 15 Feb 99 10:43:31 +0100
Received: from mail.olsen.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by kobo.olsen.ch (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA14300;
	Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:43:30 +0100 (MET)
Message-Id: <199902150943.KAA14300@kobo.olsen.ch>
From: Doug Morris <doug@olsen.ch>
To: John Geletej <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM>
Cc: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
X-Mailer: nmh-1.0
Subject: Re: Sun CDE login driving me mad... 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:33:20 EST."
	<36C473F0.29BEB905@pt.cyanamid.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:43:30 +0100
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

John Geletej wrote:
>I have a user who goes to log in to their account on a Sun workstation
>running Solaris 2.6 and CDE 1.2. They type in their username and hit
>return and the graphic at the right hand side of the login "prompt"
>turns into the OpenWindows graphic, and if they continue with their
>password, they are placed into OW instead of CDE (which is where I need
>them to be for the software we are running [Varian's VNMR]).

One of the options in the login banner (those popup menus at the
bottom of the login banner) is "openwindows, cde, or console login",
IIRC. One of the other options is to use "whatever the user last
picked" or "always use CDE/Openwin". In any case, if you poke around
at those menus, they should solve your problem.

Doug Morris
Operations Manager
Olsen & Associates, Ltd.		http://www.olsen.ch/


From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb 17 07:52:37 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA12305
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 07:52:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gateway-le0.Cyanamid.COM (gateway-le0.Cyanamid.COM
	[198.138.106.253]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA12265
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 07:52:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from igate.cyanamid.com by gateway-le0.Cyanamid.COM
	via smtpd (for usenix.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) with SMTP;
	17 Feb 1999 15:49:40 UT
Received: from pt.cyanamid.com ([141.173.60.184] (may be forged))
	by igate.cyanamid.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA25026
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:49:33 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <36CAE5C5.A1B42A12@pt.cyanamid.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:52:37 -0500
From: John Geletej <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM>
Organization: can usually find what I'm looking for...
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Request for info - TIFF images
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Greetings SAGE ones,

Is there any easy way to determine whether a given TIFF image is "good"
or not without opening it with some kind of viewer?

We are receiving CD-ROMs with various scanned images in TIFF format,
some of which are "broken". I was wondering if there's any kind of UNIX
tool or "process" that can be used to check the validity of these
images?

Thanks in advance - please reply direct unless you think this info would
be of some benefit to the whole 'group'.

-john g-


From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb 17 09:22:34 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA15906
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:22:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ptssmsgpltn01.pltn4698.ptss.com (ptssmsgpltn01.msg.ptss.com
	[155.241.18.77]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA15872
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:22:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: by ptssmsgpltn01.msg.ptss.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
	id <FADVMQF4>; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:19:30 -0800
Message-ID: <115B6F25FF80D211A64900805FEA7ED0047EAF@ptssmsgpltn02.msg.ptss.com>
From: "Melendez, George A (PTSS-ga5mele)" <ga5mele@ptss.com>
To: "'sage-members@usenix.org'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: CPU Rating in MIPS
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:19:29 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="ISO-8859-1"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Hello:

I am trying to research the performance of  CPU in MIPS on an SGI server
versus an HP server.  The clock speed for SGI is 250mhz and HP is 200mhz.  I
believe that the HP chip is newer.

It there a group that provides this kind of service.  I seem to recall that
there was but I can place the location.

Thank you for your time!




From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb 17 11:58:35 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA24046
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:58:35 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk (bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.5.31])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA24031
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:58:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: from turnham.cs.ucl.ac.uk by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP 
	id <g.08521-0@bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk>; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:55:47 +0000
To: John Geletej <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM>
cc: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Request for info - TIFF images
In-reply-to: message from John Geletej <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM> dated "Wed,
	17 Feb 1999 10:52:37 EST." <36CAE5C5.A1B42A12@pt.cyanamid.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:55:48 +0000
Message-ID: <2139.919281348@cs.ucl.ac.uk>
From: Jonathan Crompton <J.Crompton@cs.ucl.ac.uk>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:52:37 EST
John Geletej <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM> wrote:

> Is there any easy way to determine whether a given TIFF image is "good"
> or not without opening it with some kind of viewer?

I wonder whether 'tiffinfo' or 'tifftopnm' can help you.  Perhaps they
deliver useful exit statuses?
-- 
Me:     Jonathan Crompton <J.Crompton@cs.ucl.ac.uk>
        Systems Architect, Computer Science, UCL.
Views:  My own, and not UCL's unless otherwise indicated


From sage-members-owner  Wed Feb 17 21:37:49 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA15341
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:37:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA15332
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:37:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: from vega.cs.duke.edu (vega.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.193])
	by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA18930
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:35:28 -0500 (EST)
Received: from localhost (des@localhost) 
	by vega.cs.duke.edu (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP
	id AAA28475 for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>;
	Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:35:27 -0500 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: vega.cs.duke.edu: des owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:35:27 -0500 (EST)
From: "Daniel E. Singer" <des@cs.duke.edu>
To: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Whither FaceSaver?
In-Reply-To: <36CAE5C5.A1B42A12@pt.cyanamid.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9902171405320.21946-100000@vega.cs.duke.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

At this past LISA, the venerable FaceSaver was absent.  Is FaceSaver
history, gone the way of the SAGE calendar and Computing Systems, but
with less fanfare?  Anyone have the inside scoop on this?

My apologies if I missed some notice on this.

-Dan

-- 
Daniel E. Singer, Systems Administrator
Dept. of Computer Science, Duke University, Durham NC 27708 USA
des@cs.duke.edu, www.cs.duke.edu/~des, (919)660-6577




From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 18 00:09:17 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA20229
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:09:17 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mhub3.tc.umn.edu (mhub3.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.43])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA20220
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:09:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by mhub3.tc.umn.edu with ESMTP;
	Thu, 18 Feb 1999 02:06:57 -0600
Received: by gold.tc.umn.edu for sage-members@usenix.org;
	Thu, 18 Feb 1999 02:06:56 -0600
Message-Id: <iss.3b6d.36cbca20.a4cae.1@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 02:06:56 -0600
From: Dave Bianchi <djb@tc.umn.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: TCSA meeting February 18
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

The Twin Cities System Administrators (TCSA) group meets monthly to
discuss topics of interest to system and network administrators in
the Twin Cities area of Minnesota.  The meetings are free and open to
the public.  Check out our web site at http://www.tcsa.org/

TCSA meetings are on the third Thursday of each month at 7:00 pm.

Next Meeting:

  Topic:	Miscellaneous Topics
  Speakers:	Everyone attending
  Date/Time:	February 18, 1999  7:00 pm
  Location:	University Park Plaza Office Building (MRNet)

Synopsis:

  The meeting will be a chance for you to bring up system
  administration issues for discussion.  These issues may
  or may not be technical.

  If it gets quiet, random questions will be tossed out to
  the group.

We will meet at University Park Plaza Office Building (MRNet office),
2829 University Ave. SE, in a conference room on the first floor of
the building.


Tentative Meeting Schedule

  March 18, 1999
  April 15, 1999

Directions to University Park Plaza (MRNet):

The MRNet office is at University Park Plaza Office Building, 2829
University Ave. SE.  It is a white-concrete, 9-story, hexagonal
building (previously occupied by Group Health).  The windows are
distinctive, shaped somewhat like TV screens.  University Park Plaza
is on the north side of University Ave. (across from the Octopus Car
Wash), about 3 blocks east of the intersection of Washington Ave. and
University Ave. or about 3 blocks west of KSTP-TV. 

- From the South (35W)

Proceed north on 35W, exiting onto Interstate 94 East.  Continue in
the far left lane on Interstate 94 East to the Highway 280 exit.
Remain on Highway 280 until University Ave.  Turn left on University,
proceed 7 blocks west to SE 29th Ave.  The building is on your right. 

- From the North (35W)

Proceed south on 35W, exiting onto Highway 280 South.  Continue on
Highway 280 until the University Ave. exit.  Turn right on University.
Continue 7 blocks west to SE 29th Ave.  The building is on your right. 

- From the West (94/394)

Proceed east on 94, cross the Mississippi river and continue in the far
left lane on Interstate 94 East to the Highway 280 exit.  Remain on
Highway 280 until University Ave.  Turn left on University, proceed
7 blocks west to SE 29th Ave.  The building is on your right. 

- From the East (94)

Proceed west on 94, continue in the far right lane to the Highway 280
exit.  Remain on Highway 280 until University Ave.  Turn left onto
University, proceed 7 blocks to SE 29th St.  The building is on your
right. 

- Parking

Free parking is available in the visitor lot off SE 29th Ave. and in
front of the building along University Ave. 

- Web map is at: http://www.mr.net/about/location.html

For more information on TCSA, check out our web site:

  http://www.tcsa.org/

To subscribe to the TCSA mailing list (from a Unix system):

  echo "subscribe tcsa" | mailx majordomo@tcsa.org

For any other information, please send email to:

  info@tcsa.org

or contact:

  Dave Bianchi	651-644-7843

-- 
Dave Bianchi         Collective Technologies     Pager: 800-759-8888
djb@colltech.com        A Pencom Company               pin: 571-8458
djb@tc.umn.edu       http://www.colltech.com/


From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 18 01:25:34 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA22848
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:25:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gate.mental.com (gate.mental.com [192.31.14.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA22839
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:25:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from uucp@localhost)
	by gate.mental.com (8.8.5/8.8.8/Lobo-19990108) id KAA04350;
	Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:23:04 +0100 (CET)
Received: from twen-et(172.16.0.5) by gate via smap (V2.0)
	id xma004348; Thu, 18 Feb 99 10:22:34 +0100
Received: (from smap@localhost) by mental.com (8.6.12/8.6.12/Lobo-980925)
	id KAA01995; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:22:34 +0100
Message-Id: <199902180922.KAA01995@mental.com>
Received: from twen(172.17.0.5) by twen via smap (V2.0)
	id xma001988; Thu, 18 Feb 99 10:22:26 +0100
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
To: "Daniel E. Singer" <des@cs.duke.edu>
Cc: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>,
	Lynda McGinley <mcginley@cs.colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: Whither FaceSaver? 
In-reply-to: "Daniel E. Singer"'s message of Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:35:27 EST
	<Pine.GSO.4.05.9902171405320.21946-100000@vega.cs.duke.edu> 
Organization: mental images GmbH & Co. KG, Berlin, Germany
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:22:25 +0100
From: Alexander Lobodzinski <lobo@mental.com>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

() At this past LISA, the venerable FaceSaver was absent.  Is FaceSaver
() history, gone the way of the SAGE calendar and Computing Systems, but
() with less fanfare?  Anyone have the inside scoop on this?
() 
() My apologies if I missed some notice on this.

The terminal room coordinator told me FaceSaver has to undergo
redesign and hopefully will be resurrected at a future conference.
Any news on it, Lynda?

    Ciao, Lobo

-- 
Alexander Lobodzinski <lobo@mental.com>		mental images, Berlin



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 18 06:07:49 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA02092
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 06:07:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from splat.niehs.nih.gov (root@splat.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.9.236])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA02083
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 06:07:43 -0800 (PST)
Received: from splat.niehs.nih.gov (IDENT:brown9@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by splat.niehs.nih.gov (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA13635;
	Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:04:59 -0500
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2
In-reply-to: <199902180922.KAA01995@mental.com> 
References: <199902180922.KAA01995@mental.com>
Comments: In-reply-to Alexander Lobodzinski <lobo@mental.com>
	message dated "Thu, 18 Feb 1999 04:22:25 -0500."
To: Alexander Lobodzinski <lobo@mental.com>
cc: "Daniel E. Singer" <des@cs.duke.edu>,
	SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>,
	Lynda McGinley <mcginley@cs.colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: Whither FaceSaver? 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:04:59 -0500
Message-ID: <13632.919346699@splat.niehs.nih.gov>
From: "Lance A. Brown" <brown9@niehs.nih.gov>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

FaceSaver?  What is FaceSaver?

--[Lance]




From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 18 06:39:55 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA03149
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 06:39:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: from suod.cs.colorado.edu (suod.cs.colorado.edu [128.138.192.205])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA03140
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 06:39:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from suod.cs.colorado.edu (mcginley@localhost.cs.colorado.edu
	[127.0.0.1])
	by suod.cs.colorado.edu (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA06433;
	Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:36:55 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199902181436.HAA06433@suod.cs.colorado.edu>
To: Alexander Lobodzinski <lobo@mental.com>
cc: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>,
	Lynda McGinley <mcginley@cs.colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: Whither FaceSaver? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:22:25 +0100."
	<199902180922.KAA01995@mental.com> 
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:36:54 -0700
From: Lynda McGinley <mcginley@suod.cs.colorado.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


--------

    () At this past LISA, the venerable FaceSaver was absent.  Is FaceSaver
    () history, gone the way of the SAGE calendar and Computing Systems, but
    () with less fanfare?  Anyone have the inside scoop on this?
    () 
    () My apologies if I missed some notice on this.
    
    The terminal room coordinator told me FaceSaver has to undergo
    redesign and hopefully will be resurrected at a future conference.
    Any news on it, Lynda?
    
        Ciao, Lobo
    
    -- 
    Alexander Lobodzinski <lobo@mental.com>		mental images, Berlin
    

---------------
There was a proposal to upgrade the equipment sent to USENIX.  To my knowledge
no decision was made.  I believe it's an economic decision.


I'll keep you posted.

thanks
lynda



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 18 07:52:41 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05824
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:52:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA05815
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:52:35 -0800 (PST)
Received: from vega.cs.duke.edu (vega.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.193])
	by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA26484;
	Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:50:20 -0500 (EST)
Received: from localhost (des@localhost) 
	by vega.cs.duke.edu (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP
	id KAA29812; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:50:20 -0500 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: vega.cs.duke.edu: des owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:50:20 -0500 (EST)
From: "Daniel E. Singer" <des@cs.duke.edu>
To: "Lance A. Brown" <brown9@niehs.nih.gov>
cc: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Whither FaceSaver? 
In-Reply-To: <13632.919346699@splat.niehs.nih.gov>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9902181038410.29713-100000@vega.cs.duke.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Lance A. Brown wrote:

 > FaceSaver?  What is FaceSaver?

It's a workstation with a camera, a printer, and some special
software.  You sit in front of it, fill out some demographic info, and
take your picture.  The picture goes into a database at the USENIX
site <http://facesaver.usenix.org/>, and some address labels get
printed out with your picture on them.  You can use one of the labels
to make a laminated luggage tag (supplies and laminator are provided).
Usually this is all done in or near the terminal room.  Of course, the
picture and demographic info probably get sold off to some company in
New Jersey...  ;^)

-Dan

-- 
Daniel E. Singer, Systems Administrator
Dept. of Computer Science, Duke University, Durham NC 27708 USA
des@cs.duke.edu, www.cs.duke.edu/~des, (919)660-6577




From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 19 10:05:06 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA19883
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:05:06 -0800 (PST)
Received: from lmiexchange.liebhardt.com (mail.liebhardt.com [208.155.234.20])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19843
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:04:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: by LMIEXCHANGE with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
	id <1VNZ1GD2>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:02:20 -0500
Message-ID: <197F21A0A5BAD111A6DE00805F654C432C4BC3@LMIEXCHANGE>
From: Steve DeBord <debord@liebhardt.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Solaris log files
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:02:19 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Greetings Sage Members,

Being the newly appointed Sysadmin for our Sun Ultra Enterprise system, I
was wondering if anyone has any suggestions regarding the logs that need
checked on a daily/weekly basis.  Our server is running Solaris 2.5.1.

Suggestions?


Thanks in advance,

Steve DeBord

Systems Administrator
Liebhardt Inc.
Phone : 765-378-2355
Pager : 317-380-2214
Email : debord@liebhardt.com
 


From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 19 14:46:25 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA00118
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:46:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA29992
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:46:06 -0800 (PST)
Received: from netscape.com by relay2.UU.NET with ESMTP 
	(peer crosschecked as: h-205-217-237-46.netscape.com [205.217.237.46])
	id QQgdhi20887
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:43:46 -0500 (EST)
Received: from judge.mcom.com (judge.mcom.com [205.217.237.53])
	by netscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19342
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:43:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from netscape.com ([208.12.63.138]) by judge.mcom.com
	(Netscape Messaging Server 4.01) with ESMTP id F7FB4C02.91P;
	Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:43:24 -0800 
Message-ID: <36CDE90C.8AB002B0@netscape.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:43:24 -0800
From: Stefan Jang <stefan@netscape.com>
Organization: Netscape :-)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Steve DeBord <debord@liebhardt.com>
CC: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Solaris log files
References: <197F21A0A5BAD111A6DE00805F654C432C4BC3@LMIEXCHANGE>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4E6A8E032F3D205A2A91A0DB"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------4E6A8E032F3D205A2A91A0DB
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Steve DeBord wrote:

> Greetings Sage Members,
>
> Being the newly appointed Sysadmin for our Sun Ultra Enterprise system, I
> was wondering if anyone has any suggestions regarding the logs that need
> checked on a daily/weekly basis.  Our server is running Solaris 2.5.1.
>
> Suggestions?
>

I think, /var/adm/messages is a good start...
and then there are other log files located in /var/adm directory....

That's my 2 cents...

Stefan

>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Steve DeBord
>
> Systems Administrator
> Liebhardt Inc.
> Phone : 765-378-2355
> Pager : 317-380-2214
> Email : debord@liebhardt.com
>

--------------4E6A8E032F3D205A2A91A0DB
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
 name="stefan.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Stefan Jang
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="stefan.vcf"

begin:vcard 
n:Jang;Stefan
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
org:Netscape Communications Corp.
version:2.1
email;internet:stefan@netscape.com
title:Software Release Engineer 
x-mozilla-cpt:;0
fn:Stefan Jang
end:vcard

--------------4E6A8E032F3D205A2A91A0DB--



From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 19 17:49:53 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA07303
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:49:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from univac.stanford.edu (chtudor@univac.Stanford.EDU [36.48.0.130])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA07292
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:49:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (chtudor@localhost)
	by univac.stanford.edu (8.9.0/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA00335
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:50:26 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: univac.stanford.edu: chtudor owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:50:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Chad H Tudor <chtudor@stanford.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Backup Software
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990219174935.240A-100000@univac.stanford.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Has anyone had any experence with Sun StorEdge LibMon?

I'm curious if there are any opinions floating about.

Regards

         
	 Chad H Tudor     System Administrator     Highwire Press
          chtudor@stanford.edu      http://highwire.stanford.edu



From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 19 20:08:10 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA12106
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:08:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: from dhw.vip.best.com (dhw.vip.best.com [204.156.129.101])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA12097
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:08:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from david@localhost) by dhw.vip.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17148;
	Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:05:40 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:05:40 -0800 (PST)
From: David Wolfskill <david@dhw.vip.best.com>
Message-Id: <199902200405.UAA17148@dhw.vip.best.com>
To: debord@liebhardt.com, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re:  Solaris log files
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

>From: Steve DeBord <debord@liebhardt.com>
>Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:02:19 -0500

>Being the newly appointed Sysadmin for our Sun Ultra Enterprise system, I
>was wondering if anyone has any suggestions regarding the logs that need
>checked on a daily/weekly basis.  Our server is running Solaris 2.5.1.

>Suggestions?

Well....

As has been suggested, /var/adm/messages.  Actually, look in both
/var/adm and /var/log for any file that changes fairly often.  :-)  You
might check /etc/syslog.conf to see if perhaps a predecessor arranged
for anything to be logged in an unexpected place (such as on a different
machine).

But I don't know what else to suggest, without a slightly better clue
as to what "services" that system (yes, I noted the singular) is
intended to provide.  I would not be at all surprised if there were some
things that might benefit from a change in the logging.

There also exist packages that can both aid in reducing that amount of
irrelevant stuff to wade through and (by examining the docs & examples,
if nothing else) can also provide clues as to what other folks seemed to
think might be important.  From memory, I believe that one of them is
called "swatch".

Of course, it would be Very Nice if your predecessor(s) had left some
sort of documentation about what they were trying to accomplish when
changes were made to the system.  This is one of the respects in which
religious use of a change control mechanism (such as RCS or SCCS) can
prove useful.

And please bear in mind that it's not only other folks who might benefit
if you keep records & logs:  I've often found it helpful to glance
through the change logs to find out what I thought I was thinking(!)
when I made a change some months in the past.  Of course, I'm veering
rather off-topic, so I'll stop now....

Cheers,
david
-- 
David H. Wolfskill				david@dhw.vip.best.com
As a computing professional, I believe it would be unethical for me to
advise, recommend, or support the use (save possibly for personal
amusement) of any product that is or depends on any Microsoft product.


From sage-members-owner  Sat Feb 20 06:58:31 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA04510
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 06:58:31 -0800 (PST)
Received: from east.isi.edu (east.isi.edu [38.245.76.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA04501
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 06:58:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [38.218.19.130] by east.isi.edu (8.8.5/5.61+local-24)
	id <OAA20429>; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 14:56:11 GMT
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:54:28 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
From: Forrest Houston <fhouston@east.isi.edu>
To: Steve DeBord <debord@liebhardt.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Solaris log files
In-Reply-To: <36CDE90C.8AB002B0@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.05.9902200940500.-495995@groucho.east.isi.edu>
X-X-Sender: fhouston@ale.east.isi.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, Stefan Jang wrote:

> Steve DeBord wrote:
> 
> > Greetings Sage Members,
> >
> > Being the newly appointed Sysadmin for our Sun Ultra Enterprise system, I
> > was wondering if anyone has any suggestions regarding the logs that need
> > checked on a daily/weekly basis.  Our server is running Solaris 2.5.1.
> >
> > Suggestions?
> >
> 
> I think, /var/adm/messages is a good start...
> and then there are other log files located in /var/adm directory....
> 
> That's my 2 cents...
> 

One that took me awhile to find when I first started was the /var/cron/log
file.  This can be helpful if you use a lot of cron jobs.

Someone else already mentioned it, but I would 2nd the use of a program
like "swatch".  It can help you quickly weed through the file and find
what you are looking for.

What I've found is helpful is to setup a couple of cron jobs to process
the logs you are interested in (syslog, messages, http logs, etc).  Run it
through swatch, then "cat" the entire log, and pipe everything to a mail
message.  You should probably still spot check the logs periodically
especially if you think something may be wrong (wrt security or system
problems)....

IMHO
Forrest



From sage-members-owner  Sat Feb 20 09:06:19 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA08625
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:06:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: from vielle.datasys.net (mark@vielle.datasys.net [204.252.164.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA08616
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:06:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from mark@localhost)
	by vielle.datasys.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA03078;
	Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:03:50 -0500
Message-Id: <199902201703.MAA03078@vielle.datasys.net>
From: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:03:49 -0500
Reply-To: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey)
X-Pgp-Fingerprint: DB 6B 9E 9F B5 F2 9B 6D A0 BE D8 10 6B 22 8F 06
X-Accept-Language: sh
X-Tom-Swiftie: I like writing artificially intelligent programs, Tom lisped.
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 1995-03-03)
To: Forrest Houston <fhouston@east.isi.edu>,
	Steve DeBord <debord@liebhardt.com>
Subject: Re: Solaris log files
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Forrest said:
: One that took me awhile to find when I first started was the /var/cron/log
: file.  This can be helpful if you use a lot of cron jobs.

This raises an interesting philosophical issue related to the organization
of the filesystem tree; in this case,
	* Does it make more sense to keep all of the files related to cron together?
	* Does it make more sense to keep all of the log files together?

I tend to think that the answer is likely to depend on your style of 
management and the nature of your system, but it's valuable to think
through such things, imho. For active systems, you have to decide whether
it's better to have
	/var/log/1999/02/20/cron
	/var/log/1999/02/20/lpd
	/var/log/1999/02/20/messages
	/var/log/1999/02/20/ftp
&c., or to have
	/var/log/cron/1999/02/20
	/var/log/lpd/1999/02/20
	/var/log/messages/1999/02/20
	/var/log/ftp/1999/02/20
(where the `messages' file might have everything else -- it should
probably be named `general' or `misc').




On a related note: what does Solaris' hier(7) say about /var/adm? Linux
seemed to copy it, but an early (1993) hier(7) for Linux mentions
       /usr/adm
              This often contains various log files.
This was before the clear distinction was made between /usr and /var.




From sage-members-owner  Sat Feb 20 10:11:34 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA10744
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:11:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from east.isi.edu (east.isi.edu [38.245.76.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA10735
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:11:29 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [38.218.19.130] by east.isi.edu (8.8.5/5.61+local-24)
	id <SAA20863>; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 18:09:10 GMT
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:07:27 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
From: Forrest Houston <fhouston@east.isi.edu>
To: "Mark R. Lindsey" <mark@vielle.datasys.net>
cc: Steve DeBord <debord@liebhardt.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Solaris log files
In-Reply-To: <199902201703.MAA03078@vielle.datasys.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.05.9902201257200.-518349@groucho.east.isi.edu>
X-X-Sender: fhouston@ale.east.isi.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



On Sat, 20 Feb 1999, Mark R. Lindsey wrote:

> Forrest said:
> : One that took me awhile to find when I first started was the /var/cron/log
> : file.  This can be helpful if you use a lot of cron jobs.
> 
> This raises an interesting philosophical issue related to the organization
> of the filesystem tree; in this case,
> 	* Does it make more sense to keep all of the files related to cron together?
> 	* Does it make more sense to keep all of the log files together?
> 
>

For the network loghosts I usually put all the logs into a /logs directory
(which is also it's own partition).  On the individual machines I usually
put links to all the other logs in to /usr/adm since that's the directory
I'm used to going to.  Along with that, one of the first things I do when
setting up a new machine is linking /usr/adm to /var/adm.  On the flip
side though I think I might have a tendance to overuse links a bit, so
when I'm on a machine I haven't "customized" I end up hunting around for
things ;-)

So I guess as far as the above goes, I vote for the 2nd option.  It's much
easier to go into one directory and have all the logs there (or atleast
links to them) than it is to go to the individual directories for the
program/service.

IMHO
Forrest




From sage-members-owner  Sat Feb 20 15:59:01 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA22389
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 15:59:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: from draco-le1.is.macsch.com (draco.macsch.com [192.73.8.1])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA22380
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 15:58:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bootes.is.macsch.com (bootes.is.macsch.com [161.34.1.42])
	by draco-le1.is.macsch.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA09724;
	Sat, 20 Feb 1999 15:56:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: from canismajor.is.macsch.com by bootes.is.macsch.com
	(4.1/MSCbootes.950222) id AA08968; Sat, 20 Feb 99 15:56:08 PST
Received: by canismajor.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSC.TW.SunOS.1.02)
	id AA26044; Sat, 20 Feb 99 15:56:07 PST
From: "Todd Williams" <todd@macsch.com>
Message-Id: <9902201556.ZM26042@canismajor.is.macsch.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 15:56:06 -0800
In-Reply-To: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey)
	"Re: Solaris log files" (Feb 20, 12:03)
References: <199902201703.MAA03078@vielle.datasys.net>
X-Face: "FF3Li6k/|j$-t~Ut~7Tcrqj{YOlB#Kqid0f^}/Hq>yDnjmBRW5bJ\@EwsJ(jeU]B@?t6u'w:Z"C{8$}6kT+!sX[m.HgO{xR7q3>G-_*XwN_twn-d4&S!^or?@79qDeoMX_CS)_/lGAq9_P{9SFa5"!uAO(!,!$:{bQ^4|OAb-q{Pb'tkE^oRm_Wuecl0m4!_USKsHC/#$b_L-*$^T-Vy+_2io@[b?|Ls!_KSFXy!3bbJNxuJqm8$tQ&)090BBF-tx;
	^{)[*W,Q\>vEva?wi0FpG/]oa^*&
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95)
To: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey),
	Forrest Houston <fhouston@east.isi.edu>,
	Steve DeBord <debord@liebhardt.com>
Subject: Re: Solaris log files
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Feb 20, 12:03, Mark R. Lindsey wrote:
> 
> This raises an interesting philosophical issue related to the organization
> of the filesystem tree; in this case,
> 	* Does it make more sense to keep all of the log files together?

/var/adm, /var/log, .../httpd/logs/access.log, etc., etc.    - I vote yes.

> For active systems, you have to decide whether it's better to have
> 	/var/log/1999/02/20/cron
> 	/var/log/1999/02/20/ftp
> &c., or to have
> 	/var/log/cron/1999/02/20
> 	/var/log/ftp/1999/02/20

I vote for  /var/log/cron.19990220, /var/log/ftp.19990220,
/var/log/authlog.199902, etc.  Do you have so many logs online that they
need more than one flat directory?  Then go one more level down, but not 4.
Also, putting the timestamp in the filename makes restores and greps of
the files less confusing.

But I think the problem is even bigger than that.

Some log files grow VERY RAPIDLY -- many megabytes per day.
Some grow very slowly.  authlog comes to mind.
It's best to keep individual log files under some certain size.
1MB is great.  10MB is OK.  50MB is getting kinda big.

But with these different growth rates, the tendency is to age some of
them daily, others weekly, others yearly(!).

Then there's the annoying ones like wtmp that are binary.

And let's not forget that some processes need to be restarted after a
logfile move, while others don't.

And some programs follow the paradigm "my logfile must exist and be
writable by me or else I will silently log nothing".

I've always considered writing some tool that would allow you to manage
and age all your log files from one config file.  Maybe the config file
would be a table that lists the base logfile name, the interval at which
it gets aged, the number of logs or amount of space to keep online before
deleting them, etc.

Anybody know of any such program?  It might be too much work for
too little gain.

The ultimate would be an ADAPTIVE process that keeps fewer old logs online
if space is getting tight, etc.  Personally I think an adaptive news
expire program would be nice, too.

I'll get right on these, as soon as I get this other stuff done for
my boss... :-)

Todd Williams                     Manager, Computer and Communication Systems
MacNeal-Schwendler Corp. ("MSC"),  815 Colorado Blvd.,  Los Angeles, CA   90041
todd.williams@macsch.com          (323)259-4973          http://www.macsch.com/
geek  n. : a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usu.
includes biting the head off a live chicken or snake  -Webster's New Collegiate


From sage-members-owner  Sat Feb 20 18:33:04 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA27608
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 18:33:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from splat.niehs.nih.gov (root@splat.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.9.236])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA27599
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 18:32:58 -0800 (PST)
Received: from splat.niehs.nih.gov (IDENT:brown9@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by splat.niehs.nih.gov (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA25440;
	Sat, 20 Feb 1999 21:30:13 -0500
To: "Todd Williams" <todd@macsch.com>
cc: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey),
	Forrest Houston <fhouston@east.isi.edu>,
	Steve DeBord <debord@liebhardt.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Solaris log files 
In-reply-to: <9902201556.ZM26042@canismajor.is.macsch.com> 
References: <199902201703.MAA03078@vielle.datasys.net>
	<9902201556.ZM26042@canismajor.is.macsch.com>
Comments: In-reply-to "Todd Williams" <todd@macsch.com>
	message dated "Sat, 20 Feb 1999 18:56:06 -0500."
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 21:30:13 -0500
Message-ID: <25436.919564213@splat.niehs.nih.gov>
From: "Lance A. Brown" <brown9@niehs.nih.gov>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Todd Williams <todd@macsch.com> writes:

> I've always considered writing some tool that would allow you to manage
> and age all your log files from one config file.  Maybe the config file
> would be a table that lists the base logfile name, the interval at which
> it gets aged, the number of logs or amount of space to keep online before
> deleting them, etc.

Red Hat Linux ships with the logrotate program.  It is a configurable
log file rotater that can scripts actions to take before and after
rotating files (HUP'ing syslogd, for example) and is driven by a
config file.  I use it to automatically run log analysis reports after 
the files are rotated out.

--[Lance]


From sage-members-owner  Sat Feb 20 19:48:39 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA00161
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:48:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from vax.area.com (vax101.area.com [165.90.20.101])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA00144
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:48:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: (qmail 29674 invoked by uid 2244); 21 Feb 1999 03:46:15 -0000
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 20:46:15 -0700 (MST)
From: Vern Hart <vern@hart.com>
X-Sender: vern@vax
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Solaris log files
In-Reply-To: <9902201556.ZM26042@canismajor.is.macsch.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990220203108.26418B-100000@vax>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Sat, 20 Feb 1999, Todd Williams wrote:
> 
> I've always considered writing some tool that would allow you to manage
> and age all your log files from one config file.  Maybe the config file
> would be a table that lists the base logfile name, the interval at which
> it gets aged, the number of logs or amount of space to keep online before
> deleting them, etc.
> 
> Anybody know of any such program?  It might be too much work for
> too little gain.

I'm sure there are others but you might check out RedHat's logrotate.
You can get it from them in RPM or SRPM (source) or you can find it in
several places as a tar ball.  Here's one:

   ftp://gatekeeper.dec.com/pub/linux/redhat/code/logrotate/

It's GNU'ed and is quite flexible.  A quote from the man page:

       logrotate  is  designed  to ease administration of systems
       that generate large numbers of log files.  It allows auto-
       matic  rotation,  compression, removal, and mailing of log
       files.  Each  log  file  may  be  handled  daily,  weekly,
       monthly, or when it grows too large.

And an example conf from the man page:

       # sample logrotate configuration file
       errors sysadmin@my.org
       compress

       /var/log/messages {
           rotate 5
           weekly
           postrotate
                                     /sbin/killall -HUP syslogd
           endscript
       }

       /var/log/httpd/access.log {
           rotate 5
           mail www@my.org
           errors www@my.org
           size=100k
           postrotate
                                     /sbin/killall -HUP httpd
           endscript
       }

       /var/log/news/* {
           monthly
           rotate 2
           errors newsadmin@my.org
           postrotate
                                     kill -HUP `cat /var/run/inn.pid`
           endscript
           nocompress
       }

I haven't tried compiling it for any of the other UNIX flavors I
administer but it does a nice job on my linux systems.

Cheers,
Vern
-- 
\ \   / __| _ \  \ |   Vern Hart
 \ \ /  _|    / .  |   vern@hart.com
  \_/  ___|_|_\_|\_|

 8:43pm up 90 day(s), 20:22, 18 users, load average: 0.10, 0.13, 0.15 



From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb 22 10:19:42 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA19443
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:19:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mrfreeze.questra.com (mrfreeze.questra.com [208.133.210.73])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19434
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:19:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from questra.com ([10.20.4.102])
	by mrfreeze.questra.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA03614
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:17:14 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <36D19D0E.131C0AB2@questra.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:08:14 -0500
From: Steve Tylock <stylock@questra.com>
Organization: Questra Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Benchmark for Authentication Services
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I've been asked to come up with some benchmark numbers for a client
that is considering an "authentication service".  The specifics
include feeds from several databases of groups of individuals into a
consolidated "people" database and use of an LDAP product to
authenticate multiple web sites (and eventually other services / 
applications).

What I am looking for is some estimate of cost on a per user (or other
reasonable) basis.  That is - Organization X (either internal to
the parent, or outsourced to a 3rd party) runs the servers, takes
care of high availability, disaster planning, maintenance, service
responsiveness, etc, and charges $2.50 (for example) per user entry
per month.  This is not a cost to run a web (or other) server, just
a service to take username / password requests to verify identity,
and offer people data to other systems (ie - stuff LDAP does for you).

The lack of information about this comes in 3 main areas:

* not many places have completed this type of project on a large scale
* If they have, they are not releasing the costs
* If they have, the costs are included in a larger charge / allocation
  that includes things like system maintenance.

I will release a summary of all the individual responses I get back.

Info to send:

Type of organization: (govt, edu, bank, manufacture, non-profit, etc...)
Size of database: (10, 100, 1k, 5k, 10k, 25k, 50k, 100k, (bigger?-))
Costs: (per user, per whatever)
Cost basis: (at-cost, cost+profit, ?)
How long has it been running:
Type of authentication service:
Other interesting info:

If you had a rolled up figure, and would hazard a guess as to the
portion of it that is authentication, I'd be happy to hear that
as well.  (It certainly would be more than what I have now;-)

thanks
steve
tylock@questra.com


From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb 22 11:38:57 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA22458
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:38:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ns2.ge.com (ns2.ge.com [192.35.39.25])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA22446
	for <sAGE-Members@USENIX.ORG>; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:38:50 -0800 (PST)
Received: from thomas.ge.com (thomas-o.ge.com [10.47.28.21])
	by ns2.ge.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04698
	for <sAGE-Members@USENIX.ORG>; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:36:07 -0500 (EST)
Received: from hqsun10a. ([3.109.8.80])
	by thomas.ge.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA08217
	for <sAGE-Members@USENIX.ORG>; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:36:05 -0500 (EST)
Received: from SShapiro by hqsun10a. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id LAA08795; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:28:54 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990222113552.006c205c@alp01xbmailge.gemail.ge.com>
X-Sender: shapiroso@alp01xbmailge.gemail.ge.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:35:52 -0800
To: sAGE-Members@usenix.org
From: Sid Shapiro <Sid.Shapiro@gecapital.com>
Subject: documenting systems....
Cc: sid.shapiro@gecapital.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Hello,

Every time I go to a new job I have the need to document the configuration
of the systems under my control. I've done this in a number of ways over
the years, but I've never been entirely happy with any of the ways. I've
done it in databases with tables for different types info - disk, tape, cpu,
etc, I done similar things in flat files using the file system hierarchy as
part of  the "schema". I've done it in spreadsheets, I've toyed wth the
idea of hypertexted tables with visio or image maps of the systems and/or
racks and card-cages, but nothing seems satisfactory.

The idea would be to capture as much info on a system as possible -
hardware config including models, serial numbers, controllers, disks,
tapes, cpus, maybe even slot-info, software installs, uses, tech support
info, backup schedules, etc., but to do it in a form that is "easy" to
navigate, you can pull reports out of, and can easily be kept up to date.

I've seen it done (and done it myself) in logbooks that are kept by each
machine, which is handly for making notes in, but uselss if you want to see
lots of logbooks at the same time to produce some sort of report.

Although it would nice if some or all of the information could be pulled,
stored and updated,  programatically, it is most unlikely that this is
do-able. Much of the information will have to be generated, stored, and
mantained by hand.

So my question is - how do you do it? I'm looking for ideas on "best
practices" for system documentation.

Thanks!
/ Sid /




From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb 22 14:51:58 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA00218
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:51:58 -0800 (PST)
Received: from karl.labyrinth.com (karl.labyrinth.com [192.107.48.130])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00209;
	Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:51:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: from karl.labyrinth.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by karl.labyrinth.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA01020;
	Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:47:13 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199902222247.PAA01020@karl.labyrinth.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Disposition: inline
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Barbara Dijker <barb.dijker@labyrinth.com>
Organization: Labyrinth Computer Services
Mime-Version: 1.0
Reply-To: Barbara Dijker <barb.dijker@labyrinth.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:47:11 GMT
X-Mailer: EMUmail 2.70
Subject: Re: USENIX Conferences of Interest to System & Network Admins (
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

This conference was put together because of member interest.  We really
need your help to ensure that this and other new conferences are
a success and can be repeated regularly.  Folks who may be interested
in this conference may not be familiar with the quality of SAGE/USENIX
conferences or not reachable by our current information distribution
channels.

So please do your part and pass this information on to potentially
interested peers or other co-workers and friends.  Tell them how 
fun and useful USENIX/SAGE conferences are.

In addition, for these conferences continue, we need volunteers to
help put together future programs.  Feel free to trip over each other
getting in line.  Having your name in a conference program is a fun
way to impress your boss and your friends.

Barb Dijker
SAGE Vice President
barb@usenix.org


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: enotify@usenix.org
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:00:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: USENIX Conferences of Interest to System & Network Admins (18320)


Dear Colleague:

For the first time USENIX and SAGE are bringing together the community of
network administrators. Interact with fellow admins, share in expertise
learned at sites of all configurations, and gain the advantage of mastery
of the latest technologies and solutions in network management.

Conference on Network Administration
	  Wednesday and Thursday, April 7-8, 1999
Networking Tutorial Program
	  Friday and Saturday, April 9-10, 1999
Workshop on Intrusion Detection and Network Monitoring
	  Sunday and Monday, April 11-12, 1999

These networking events take place at the Santa Clara Marriott Hotel in
Santa Clara, California, USA.
Register by March 16 to save up to $100 in registration.

========================================
Latest details are always available at http://www.usenix.org/events/
or obtain materials in print by telephoning +1 949 588 8649.
========================================



From sage-members-owner  Mon Feb 22 20:00:26 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA12709
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:00:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA12700
	for <sAGE-Members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:00:20 -0800 (PST)
Received: from sean (HSE-MTL-ppp5731.qc.sympatico.ca [209.226.111.152])
	by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA23714;
	Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:00:00 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <36D22733.3040@MacLawran.CA>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:57:39 -0500
From: Sean MacGuire <sean@maclawran.ca>
Reply-To: sean@maclawran.ca
Organization: Big Brother / MacLawran Inc
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Sid Shapiro <Sid.Shapiro@gecapital.com>
CC: sAGE-Members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: documenting systems....
References: <3.0.1.32.19990222113552.006c205c@alp01xbmailge.gemail.ge.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Sid Shapiro wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Every time I go to a new job I have the need to document the configuration
> of the systems under my control. I've done this in a number of ways over
> the years, but I've never been entirely happy with any of the ways. I've
> done it in databases with tables for different types info - disk, tape, cpu,
> etc, I done similar things in flat files using the file system hierarchy as
> part of  the "schema". I've done it in spreadsheets, I've toyed wth the
> idea of hypertexted tables with visio or image maps of the systems and/or
> racks and card-cages, but nothing seems satisfactory.
> 
> The idea would be to capture as much info on a system as possible -
> hardware config including models, serial numbers, controllers, disks,
> tapes, cpus, maybe even slot-info, software installs, uses, tech support
> info, backup schedules, etc., but to do it in a form that is "easy" to
> navigate, you can pull reports out of, and can easily be kept up to date.

<SHAMELESS PLUG MODE>

If you haven't looked at Big Brother ( web based systems and network
monitoring and notification at http://maclawran.ca/bb-dnld ) then you
might want to.

</SHAMELESS PLUG MODE>

One of the seriously underused features that's been there since the
beginning is the ability to have notes on every device you manage that
you're monitoring.  I've used it especially to keep system infomation
like CPU/memory/disk parition info/ - anything I'd need if the system
exploded.  Just put a file with the same name as the system you're
monitoring in the "notes" directory, and a link is made on the web
display automatically.
 
> I've seen it done (and done it myself) in logbooks that are kept by each
> machine, which is handly for making notes in, but uselss if you want to see
> lots of logbooks at the same time to produce some sort of report.

Logbooks make the auditors happy.

> Although it would nice if some or all of the information could be pulled,
> stored and updated,  programatically, it is most unlikely that this is
> do-able. Much of the information will have to be generated, stored, and
> mantained by hand.

Start with it at least in digital format... progress from there.
 
> So my question is - how do you do it? I'm looking for ideas on "best
> practices" for system documentation.
> 
> Thanks!
> / Sid /

Enjoy.
-- 
Sean MacGuire, Reality Consultant             sean@MacLawran.ca
The Big Brother Ministry of Truth      http://maclawran.ca/sean
icbm --> 45'31.06N-73'35.19W                    +1 514 982 9688
              "Looking down the barrel of another day"


From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb 23 05:22:57 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA04131
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:22:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: from emerald.alltel.com (emerald.alltel.com [198.133.100.6])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA04112
	for <sAGE-Members@usenix.org>; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:22:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Richard.Gombert@alltel.com
Received: from emerald.alltel.com (unverified) by emerald.alltel.com
	(Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id
	<B0000933507@emerald.alltel.com>; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:22:54 -0600
Received: from ccMail by emerald.alltel.com
	(IMA Internet Exchange 3.11) id 000DACB6;
	Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:20:57 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:13:19 -0600
Message-Id: <000DACB6.C21378@alltel.com>
Subject: Re: documenting systems....
To: sAGE-Members@usenix.org, Sid.Shapiro@gecapital.com (Sid Shapiro)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

     Sid and everyone,
     
     At a previous job we created a Lotus Notes database. This allowed us 
     to capture everything in several forms. These were then linked. 
     
     Next we allowed any to view certain aspects of the database. For 
     example only Tech. Support members and application owners could view 
     application passwords.
     
     With the use of different views we could see the information however 
     we wanted. (by memory, CPU type, applications loaded, users, etc.)
     
     Of coarse the same problem exist with this as with any documentation, 
     if we didn't update it it wasn't any good.
     
     Rich Gombert


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: documenting systems....
Author:  Sid.Shapiro@gecapital.com (Sid Shapiro) at internet
Date:    2/22/99 1:35 PM


Hello,
     
Every time I go to a new job I have the need to document the configuration 
of the systems under my control. I've done this in a number of ways over the 
years, but I've never been entirely happy with any of the ways. I've done it 
in databases with tables for different types info - disk, tape, cpu, etc, I 
done similar things in flat files using the file system hierarchy as part of 
 the "schema". I've done it in spreadsheets, I've toyed wth the
idea of hypertexted tables with visio or image maps of the systems and/or 
racks and card-cages, but nothing seems satisfactory.
     
The idea would be to capture as much info on a system as possible - 
hardware config including models, serial numbers, controllers, disks, 
tapes, cpus, maybe even slot-info, software installs, uses, tech support 
info, backup schedules, etc., but to do it in a form that is "easy" to 
navigate, you can pull reports out of, and can easily be kept up to date.
     
I've seen it done (and done it myself) in logbooks that are kept by each 
machine, which is handly for making notes in, but uselss if you want to see 
lots of logbooks at the same time to produce some sort of report.
     
Although it would nice if some or all of the information could be pulled, 
stored and updated,  programatically, it is most unlikely that this is 
do-able. Much of the information will have to be generated, stored, and 
mantained by hand.
     
So my question is - how do you do it? I'm looking for ideas on "best 
practices" for system documentation.
     
Thanks!
/ Sid /


From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb 23 05:22:56 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA04130
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:22:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: from emerald.alltel.com (emerald.alltel.com [198.133.100.6])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA04114
	for <sAGE-Members@usenix.org>; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:22:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Richard.Gombert@alltel.com
Received: from emerald.alltel.com (unverified) by emerald.alltel.com
	(Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id
	<B0000933517@emerald.alltel.com> for <sAGE-Members@usenix.org>; 
	Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:22:54 -0600
Received: from ccMail by emerald.alltel.com
	(IMA Internet Exchange 3.11) id 000DACC2;
	Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:21:56 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:13:19 -0600
Message-Id: <000DACC2.C21378@alltel.com>
Subject: Re: documenting systems....
To: sAGE-Members@usenix.org, Sid.Shapiro@gecapital.com (Sid Shapiro)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

     Sid and everyone,
     
     At a previous job we created a Lotus Notes database. This allowed us 
     to capture everything in several forms. These were then linked. 
     
     Next we allowed any to view certain aspects of the database. For 
     example only Tech. Support members and application owners could view 
     application passwords.
     
     With the use of different views we could see the information however 
     we wanted. (by memory, CPU type, applications loaded, users, etc.)
     
     Of coarse the same problem exist with this as with any documentation, 
     if we didn't update it it wasn't any good.
     
     Rich Gombert


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: documenting systems....
Author:  Sid.Shapiro@gecapital.com (Sid Shapiro) at internet
Date:    2/22/99 1:35 PM


Hello,
     
Every time I go to a new job I have the need to document the configuration 
of the systems under my control. I've done this in a number of ways over the 
years, but I've never been entirely happy with any of the ways. I've done it 
in databases with tables for different types info - disk, tape, cpu, etc, I 
done similar things in flat files using the file system hierarchy as part of 
 the "schema". I've done it in spreadsheets, I've toyed wth the
idea of hypertexted tables with visio or image maps of the systems and/or 
racks and card-cages, but nothing seems satisfactory.
     
The idea would be to capture as much info on a system as possible - 
hardware config including models, serial numbers, controllers, disks, 
tapes, cpus, maybe even slot-info, software installs, uses, tech support 
info, backup schedules, etc., but to do it in a form that is "easy" to 
navigate, you can pull reports out of, and can easily be kept up to date.
     
I've seen it done (and done it myself) in logbooks that are kept by each 
machine, which is handly for making notes in, but uselss if you want to see 
lots of logbooks at the same time to produce some sort of report.
     
Although it would nice if some or all of the information could be pulled, 
stored and updated,  programatically, it is most unlikely that this is 
do-able. Much of the information will have to be generated, stored, and 
mantained by hand.
     
So my question is - how do you do it? I'm looking for ideas on "best 
practices" for system documentation.
     
Thanks!
/ Sid /


From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb 23 19:08:36 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA05617
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:08:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail4.visi.net (geneva.visi.net [206.246.194.4])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05605
	for <sAGE-Members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:08:23 -0800 (PST)
Received: from sellers.visi.net (ppp09.ts2-3.NewportNews.visi.net
	[209.8.197.137]) by mail4.visi.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id
	WAA15935; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:12:57 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990223220721.00724434@smtp.visi.net>
X-Sender: sellers@smtp.visi.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:07:21 -0500
To: Sid Shapiro <Sid.Shapiro@gecapital.com>
From: Bill & Theresa Sellers <sellers@visi.net>
Subject: Re: documenting systems....
Cc: sAGE-Members@usenix.org, sid.shapiro@gecapital.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990222113552.006c205c@alp01xbmailge.gemail.ge.c
 om>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


You may want to look at CAI's Aim IT product.  I am looking at some
systems management software, and CA seems to be on the right track.
I don't know if it fits your requirements, but you can try it for free.

http://www.cai.com/products/aimit.htm

Good hunting,
Bill


At 11:35 AM 2/22/99 -0800, Sid Shapiro wrote:
>Every time I go to a new job I have the need to document the configuration
>of the systems under my control. I've done this in a number of ways over
>the years, but I've never been entirely happy with any of the ways. I've
>done it in databases with tables for different types info - disk, tape, cpu,
>etc, I done similar things in flat files using the file system hierarchy as
>part of  the "schema". I've done it in spreadsheets, I've toyed wth the
>idea of hypertexted tables with visio or image maps of the systems and/or
>racks and card-cages, but nothing seems satisfactory.
[snip]
Bill & Terry Sellers
sellers@visi.net
http://users.visi.net/~sellers/

My truck is constipated.  It won't pass anything.




From sage-members-owner  Tue Feb 23 21:45:58 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA10861
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:45:58 -0800 (PST)
Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA10852
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:45:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from vega.cs.duke.edu (vega.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.193])
	by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA12837
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:43:40 -0500 (EST)
Received: from localhost (des@localhost) 
	by vega.cs.duke.edu (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP
	id AAA09594 for <sage-members@usenix.org>;
	Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:43:39 -0500 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: vega.cs.duke.edu: des owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:43:39 -0500 (EST)
From: "Daniel E. Singer" <des@cs.duke.edu>
To: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Editing quotas
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9902240043090.9332-100000@vega.cs.duke.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I write those pesky Toolman articles in Login, and I'm thinking about
writing one about a script for editing disk quotas (on UNIX, of
course).  I have a script called `edq' that will edit quotas via the
command line, without having to use an interactive editor or a
prototype; this is handy for use from within other scripts that setup
accounts, or whatever.

What I'm wondering is:  Are there other programs or scripts out there
already that do the same thing?  If so, then I would want to mention
the other ones in the article, or perhaps forgo the article altogether
if such programs are more commonplace than I had thought.  Mine is
written in `sh', though I suspect that there must be some floating
around out there written in Perl or other languages.  Any pointers
would be appreciated.

If you can't wait for a possible article, my script is available at
<ftp://ftp.cs.duke.edu/pub/des/scripts/INDEX.html>.  Currently, it
works on Sun and the-OS-currently-known-as-Digital-UNIX. I'd
appreciate any feedback you care to give.

Thanks.

-Dan

-- 
#!/bin/sh
 NAME="Daniel E. Singer"
TITLE="Systems Administrator"
 DEPT="Department of Computer Science, Duke University"
  LOC="Durham, NC, USA"
PHONE="919/660-6577"
  FAX="919/660-6519"
EMAIL="des@cs.duke.edu"
  WEB="www.cs.duke.edu/~des"
export NAME TITLE DEPT LOC PHONE FAX EMAIL WEB



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 25 11:20:52 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA02874
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:20:52 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [131.106.3.16] (quark.usenix.org [131.106.3.16])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA02847
	for <sage-members>; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:20:32 -0800 (PST)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Message-Id: <v04011704b2fb515232b3@[131.106.3.16]>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:19:55 -0800
To: sage-members
From: Gale Berkowitz <gale@usenix.org>
Subject: SAGE Officers
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On February 22, 1999, the SAGE Executive Committee met to elect its
officers for the term 1999-2000.  They are:

President:  Hal Miller
Vice President:  Barb Dijker
Secretary:  Tim Gassaway
Treasurer:  Peg Schafer

We are all looking forward to a productive two years for SAGE.



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 25 16:06:36 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA14133
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:06:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from sekrit.office.oceanwave.com (laslo.ne.mediaone.net
	[24.128.67.33]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA14124
	for <sage-Members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:06:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from arr@localhost)
	by sekrit.office.oceanwave.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA02870;
	Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:04:01 -0500 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: sekrit.office.oceanwave.com: arr set sender to
	arr@sekrit.office.oceanwave.com using -f
Message-ID: <14037.58607.54511.858240@sekrit.office.oceanwave.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:03:59 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: <arr@oceanwave.com> (A. Rich)
To: Sid Shapiro <Sid.Shapiro@gecapital.com>
Cc: sage-Members@usenix.org
Subject: documenting systems....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990222113552.006c205c@alp01xbmailge.gemail.ge.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.19990222113552.006c205c@alp01xbmailge.gemail.ge.com>
X-Mailer: VM 6.63 under Emacs 20.3.1
X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5B F5 08 B3 6B 11 72 BD  19 29 1B 98 D2 94 77 D8
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Sounds like a good topic for a paper at the next LISA...  :}

sid.shapiro> The idea would be to capture as much info on a system as possible
sid.shapiro> - hardware config including models, serial numbers, controllers,
sid.shapiro> disks, tapes, cpus, maybe even slot-info, software installs,
sid.shapiro> uses, tech support info, backup schedules, etc., but to do it in
sid.shapiro> a form that is "easy" to navigate, you can pull reports out of,
sid.shapiro> and can easily be kept up to date.

My thoughts?

Well, most of this info can be pulled directly from the system in some cases.
For instance, use sysinfo/scsi to pull out hardware configs like models,
serial number of the system, controllers, attached devices, cpu's, cards,
etc.

On a solaris or a freebsd (at least) machine you can build everything into a
package before installation and then keep track of eveyrthing with pkginfo (or
it's counterpart on your system).  Watching patches is also a good idea
(showrev -p for solaris boxen).

Contact information, if it varies grately over the machines you have, can be
stored in an individual config file somewhere and polled.  If you're using
solaris, this can be part of a jumpstart setup.

Backup schedules can be dependent on the software being used (aka amanda), so
that can be a bit more difficult.  I'm sure it can be gotten electronically
from your dump host or the machine itself since backups are something
inherently electronic.  Perhaps with things like amanda you can only get past
information and projected information, but that's still useful to some degree.

User information can be groked from the passwd file or some sort of database
(wicked NIS/+, or maybe LDAP) pretty easily.

Collect all of the data on a machine with a web server (or have each machine
do it's own web serving if you really want) via some secure protocol like ssh
(maybe even have it automagically check a range of addresses in case anyone
new has been installed since the last run, or push the info instead of pull).

All of this can be pulled into a database with your favorite package (perl
would be my choice, but YMMV).  Put up a web front end that can do searches,
comparisons, cross references, and a page to print out a nice report, and that
seems like a pretty good automated tracking program.

Granted it'd be home grown, but if it's extensible/modular enough it could
become popular and go mainstream like so much other freeware/sharewear.

-- 
Amy Rich <arr@oceanwave.com>                    Oceanwave Consulting, Inc.
UNIX Systems Administration Consultant          12 Hines Way
http://www.oceanwave.com/                       Marblehead, MA  01945
Phone: 781-631-6160                             Fax: 781-631-6160




From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 25 19:21:44 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA21227
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:21:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hac2arpa.hac.com (hac2arpa.HAC.COM [192.27.0.10])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA21218
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:21:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from seasnake.hac.com ([147.19.100.40]) by hac2arpa.hac.com
	(4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06846; Thu, 25 Feb 99 19:17:04 PST
Received: from seasnake (seasnake [147.19.100.40])
	by seasnake.hac.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA08819;
	Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:18:22 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199902260318.TAA08819@seasnake.hac.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:18:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Mario Obejas BSYS <obejas@phylum.hac.com>
Reply-To: Mario Obejas BSYS <obejas@phylum.hac.com>
Subject: NT and Unix comparison resource
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Cc: aefrisch@lorentzian.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Md5: pmPijWh2CHvo8UbuHTiejg==
X-Mailer: dtmail 1.2.0 CDE Version 1.2 SunOS 5.6 sun4m sparc 
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

At LISA '98, at one of the BoFs, Aeleen Frisch indicated that she was looking 
for a good NT and Unix comparison source and had not found it. I mentioned the 
Kirch paper, but she had not heard of it. Unfortunately, they moved it from the 
kirch.net URL which I had seen it at, and I could not find it at the time. 

I have now lurked on this board long enough and have not seen it mentioned so 
let me throw this out as my first official post.

The general purpose comparison site:
http://www.unix-vs-nt.org/

The Kirch paper
http://www.unix-vs-nt.org/kirch/

Hope this is useful to you all.

In addition, at LISA '97, one SAGE member went up to the microphone and declared 
that he had data showing that his NT support costs were running at double his 
Unix support costs. He was thinking about coming back to LISA '98 and presenting 
that info, gathered at a New York bank. I met him afterwards and 
urged/encouraged him to present the data. 

Times change, and I see that he has changed employers. I do not know if he 
subscribes to sage-members, but I am sending him this email via Bcc. I hope that 
he is still able and willing to present that data. 

-Mario Obejas



From sage-members-owner  Thu Feb 25 20:57:48 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA24507
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:57:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: from Eng.Auburn.EDU (0@dns.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.10.13])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24465
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:57:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from eng.auburn.edu (pacman.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.12.71])
	by Eng.Auburn.EDU (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA04810;
	Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:55:23 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <36D62977.6336D103@eng.auburn.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:56:23 -0600
From: Gerald Carter <cartegw@eng.auburn.edu>
Reply-To: jerry@eng.auburn.edu
Organization: Auburn University
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (WinNT; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: LISA NT '99: last call for paper submissions
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Greetings everyone.

Please excuse the noise.  This is the last call for 
papers submissions.  The cfp deadline for the Large Installation 
System Administration of Windows NT (LISA NT) conference has 
been extended to March 4.  The original call for papers can be 
found at

	http://www.usenix.org/events/lisa-nt99/cfp.html

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me.


* Overview

What are the qualities of good models of system and network
administration? Sites around the world are asking this question 
as they build networks of varying size and complexity that 
include Microsoft Windows NT on the desktop, in the server 
room, or both. The Large Installation System Administration 
of Windows NT conference, LISA-NT, is a forum to bring 
system administration professionals together to discuss
workable solutions to the issues of administering and scaling 
the NT environment. 

LISA-NT '99 will bring together peers and experts in our 
field. We invite you to submit technical papers as well 
as proposals for invited talks, panel sessions, tutorials, 
and Work-in-Progress reports. There are also opportunities 
for Birds-of-a-Feather sessions and demos of products and
solutions. 

Please review this call for papers, make a submission, and 
join us in making LISA-NT '99 the premiere conference for 
system administrators of distributed NT environments.

We look forward to your participation. If you have questions 
not covered in this call for papers or in the detailed author 
guidelines regarding submissions, acceptable topics, etc., 
you may e-mail us at lisantchairs@usenix.org>. 






Thanks,
jerry carter
co-chair LISA NT '99
________________________________________________________________________
                            Gerald ( Jerry ) Carter	
Engineering Network Services                           Auburn University 
jerry@eng.auburn.edu             http://www.eng.auburn.edu/users/cartegw

       "...a hundred billion castaways looking for a home."
                                  - Sting "Message in a Bottle" ( 1979 )


From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 26 06:08:16 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA14844
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 06:08:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from emerald.alltel.com (emerald.alltel.com [198.133.100.6])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA14835
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 06:08:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Richard.Gombert@alltel.com
Received: from emerald.alltel.com (unverified) by emerald.alltel.com
	(Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id
	<B0000968395@emerald.alltel.com>; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:08:20 -0600
Received: from ccMail by emerald.alltel.com
	(IMA Internet Exchange 3.11) id 000E32AB;
	Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:07:25 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:57:48 -0600
Message-Id: <000E32AB.C21378@alltel.com>
Subject: Re: NT and Unix comparison resource
To: sage-members@usenix.org, obejas@phylum.hac.com (Mario Obejas BSYS)
Cc: aefrisch@lorentzian.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

     O'Reilly and HP Education published a little booklet that I thought 
     was pretty good. It is not a comparision but an intergration guide.
     
     Pearce, Eric. _An Overview of Windows NT & UNIX Integration_.          
        Sebastopol, CA: O'Reilly and Associates, Inc. Feb. 1998. [PC 200    
        103]
     
     Perhaps this will help.
     
     Rich


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: NT and Unix comparison resource
Author:  obejas@phylum.hac.com (Mario Obejas BSYS) at internet
Date:    2/25/99 9:18 PM


At LISA '98, at one of the BoFs, Aeleen Frisch indicated that she was looking 
for a good NT and Unix comparison source and had not found it. I mentioned the 
Kirch paper, but she had not heard of it. Unfortunately, they moved it from the
     
kirch.net URL which I had seen it at, and I could not find it at the time.
     
I have now lurked on this board long enough and have not seen it mentioned so 
let me throw this out as my first official post.
     
The general purpose comparison site: 
http://www.unix-vs-nt.org/
     
The Kirch paper
http://www.unix-vs-nt.org/kirch/
     
Hope this is useful to you all.
     
In addition, at LISA '97, one SAGE member went up to the microphone and declared
that he had data showing that his NT support costs were running at double his 
Unix support costs. He was thinking about coming back to LISA '98 and presenting
that info, gathered at a New York bank. I met him afterwards and 
urged/encouraged him to present the data.
     
Times change, and I see that he has changed employers. I do not know if he 
subscribes to sage-members, but I am sending him this email via Bcc. I hope that
he is still able and willing to present that data.
     
-Mario Obejas


From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 26 06:06:14 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA14646
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 06:06:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from emerald.alltel.com (emerald.alltel.com [198.133.100.6])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA14592
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 06:06:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Richard.Gombert@alltel.com
Received: from emerald.alltel.com (unverified) by emerald.alltel.com
	(Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id
	<B0000968383@emerald.alltel.com>; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:06:20 -0600
Received: from ccMail by emerald.alltel.com
	(IMA Internet Exchange 3.11) id 000E3298;
	Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:05:20 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:57:48 -0600
Message-Id: <000E3298.C21378@alltel.com>
Subject: Re: NT and Unix comparison resource
To: sage-members@usenix.org, obejas@phylum.hac.com (Mario Obejas BSYS)
Cc: aefrisch@lorentzian.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

     O'Reilly and HP Education published a little booklet that I thought 
     was pretty good. It is not a comparision but an intergration guide.
     
     Pearce, Eric. _An Overview of Windows NT & UNIX Integration_.          
        Sebastopol, CA: O'Reilly and Associates, Inc. Feb. 1998. [PC 200    
        103]
     
     Perhaps this will help.
     
     Rich


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: NT and Unix comparison resource
Author:  obejas@phylum.hac.com (Mario Obejas BSYS) at internet
Date:    2/25/99 9:18 PM


At LISA '98, at one of the BoFs, Aeleen Frisch indicated that she was looking 
for a good NT and Unix comparison source and had not found it. I mentioned the 
Kirch paper, but she had not heard of it. Unfortunately, they moved it from the
     
kirch.net URL which I had seen it at, and I could not find it at the time.
     
I have now lurked on this board long enough and have not seen it mentioned so 
let me throw this out as my first official post.
     
The general purpose comparison site: 
http://www.unix-vs-nt.org/
     
The Kirch paper
http://www.unix-vs-nt.org/kirch/
     
Hope this is useful to you all.
     
In addition, at LISA '97, one SAGE member went up to the microphone and declared
that he had data showing that his NT support costs were running at double his 
Unix support costs. He was thinking about coming back to LISA '98 and presenting
that info, gathered at a New York bank. I met him afterwards and 
urged/encouraged him to present the data.
     
Times change, and I see that he has changed employers. I do not know if he 
subscribes to sage-members, but I am sending him this email via Bcc. I hope that
he is still able and willing to present that data.
     
-Mario Obejas


From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 26 09:45:05 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA07830
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:45:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from post5.inre.asu.edu (post5.inre.asu.edu [129.219.110.86])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA07812
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:44:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: from general3.asu.edu by asu.edu (PMDF V5.1-12 #24133)
	with ESMTP id <01J873BZP6AW8YCZPC@asu.edu> for sage-members@usenix.ORG;
	Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:44:10 MST
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by general3.asu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA01071 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:42:43 -0700 (MST)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:42:43 -0700 (MST)
From: LuftHans <LuftHans@asu.edu>
Subject: axxion/veritas ansi-format freezes
X-Sender: lufthans@general3.asu.edu
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Message-id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990226101037.18469B-100000@general3.asu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

moin, moin,

we're using axxion's netbackup package and keep running into a problem
that hangs the backup for a machine.

The error is as follows:

host.domain.com host.domain.com  FREEZING
media id 213, it contains ANSI-format data and cannot
be used for backups


This particular cut and paste is from the main server, but we get the same
result with correct hostname and media id for the situation for all of the
problems.

These don't occur very often or on a regular basis, but we do get several a
month. Machines are hit individually.

We've dd'd the headers off the tapes and they have the veritas id markers on
them as well as backup data from the prvious backup.

We've run into this problem with dats and exabyte 8mm tapes. We have not yet
had any probs with dlt 4000s or 7000s, but we only have a few of them.

The people working on this have been working on it for months and not figured
it out yet. I'm tired of hearing about the problem :). They have been working
with veritas as well.

Has anyone in SAGEland run into this problem and solved it?

danke,

der.hans

# +++++++++++=================================+++++++++++ #
#                   LuftHans@asu.edu                      #
#            http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/              #
#         Help Jerry Lewis stamp out M$...oops,           #
#                  that's MDA - der.hans                  #
# ===========+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=========== #



From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 26 14:23:25 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA29875
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:23:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: from alpha.xerox.com (firewall-user@alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA29866
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:23:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: from thelma.parc.xerox.com ([13.1.100.28]) by alpha.xerox.com with
	SMTP id <54731(4)>; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:20:59 PST
Received: from defenestrate ([13.1.100.179]) by thelma.parc.xerox.com with
	SMTP id <98011>; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:20:48 PST
Message-Id: <4.1.19990226132755.00a79980@thelma.parc.xerox.com>
X-Sender: farrar@thelma.parc.xerox.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:20:49 PST
To: LuftHans <LuftHans@asu.edu>
From: Keith Farrar <farrar@parc.xerox.com>
Subject: Re: axxion/veritas ansi-format freezes
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990226101037.18469B-100000@general3.asu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

By default, NetBackup will not over-write previously-used media in
one of the formats it recognizes. You can disable this protection
by adding the lines below to /opt/openv/netbackup/bp.conf .

ALLOW_MEDIA_OVERWRITE = ANSI
ALLOW_MEDIA_OVERWRITE = TAR
ALLOW_MEDIA_OVERWRITE = CPIO

Check the (poorly-indexed) System Administrators' Guide for details.

You should be able to unfreeze the media with the bpmedia command.

 NAME
      bpmedia - freeze, unfreeze, suspend, or unsuspend NetBackup media

 SYNOPSIS
      /usr/openv/netbackup/bin/admincmd/bpmedia
           -freeze|-unfreeze|-suspend|-unsuspend -ev media_id
           [-h host] [-v]


At 09:42 AM 2/26/99 -0800, LuftHans wrote:
>moin, moin,
>
>we're using axxion's netbackup package and keep running into a problem
>that hangs the backup for a machine.
>
>The error is as follows:
>
>host.domain.com host.domain.com  FREEZING
>media id 213, it contains ANSI-format data and cannot
>be used for backups
>
>
>This particular cut and paste is from the main server, but we get the same
>result with correct hostname and media id for the situation for all of the
>problems.
>
>These don't occur very often or on a regular basis, but we do get several a
>month. Machines are hit individually.
>
>We've dd'd the headers off the tapes and they have the veritas id markers on
>them as well as backup data from the prvious backup.
>
>We've run into this problem with dats and exabyte 8mm tapes. We have not yet
>had any probs with dlt 4000s or 7000s, but we only have a few of them.
>
>The people working on this have been working on it for months and not figured
>it out yet. I'm tired of hearing about the problem :). They have been working
>with veritas as well.
>
>Has anyone in SAGEland run into this problem and solved it?
>
>danke,
>
>der.hans
>
># +++++++++++=================================+++++++++++ #
>#                   LuftHans@asu.edu                      #
>#            http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/              #
>#         Help Jerry Lewis stamp out M$...oops,           #
>#                  that's MDA - der.hans                  #
># ===========+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=========== #
>

--
|Keith Farrar | Xerox PARC CSNS | Palo Alto, CA | (650) 812-4292 |
|farrar@parc.xerox.com     | "That which does not kill you gives |
|                          |  you interesting scars."  - Kyle B. |


From sage-members-owner  Fri Feb 26 18:23:15 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA09691
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:23:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from post6.inre.asu.edu (post6.inre.asu.edu [129.219.110.87])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA09682
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:23:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: from general3.asu.edu by asu.edu (PMDF V5.1-12 #24133)
	with ESMTP id <01J87LFW74SS8X4S52@asu.edu> for sage-members@usenix.org;
	Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:22:42 MST
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by general3.asu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA02697; Fri,
	26 Feb 1999 19:20:54 -0700 (MST)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:20:54 -0700 (MST)
From: LuftHans <LuftHans@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: axxion/veritas ansi-format freezes
In-reply-to: <4.1.19990226132755.00a79980@thelma.parc.xerox.com>
X-Sender: lufthans@general3.asu.edu
To: Keith Farrar <farrar@parc.xerox.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Message-id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990226191726.2357B-100000@general3.asu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Keith Farrar wrote:

> By default, NetBackup will not over-write previously-used media in
> one of the formats it recognizes. You can disable this protection
> by adding the lines below to /opt/openv/netbackup/bp.conf .
> 
> ALLOW_MEDIA_OVERWRITE = ANSI
> ALLOW_MEDIA_OVERWRITE = TAR
> ALLOW_MEDIA_OVERWRITE = CPIO
> 
> Check the (poorly-indexed) System Administrators' Guide for details.
> 
> You should be able to unfreeze the media with the bpmedia command.
> 
>  NAME
>       bpmedia - freeze, unfreeze, suspend, or unsuspend NetBackup media
> 
>  SYNOPSIS
>       /usr/openv/netbackup/bin/admincmd/bpmedia
>            -freeze|-unfreeze|-suspend|-unsuspend -ev media_id
>            [-h host] [-v]

Thanks. I'll look at these. Someone else mentioned that the bp.conf entries
prohibit warnings about other data formats being detected as well. If we're
gonna do that, minimally I still want a warning when it thinks it detects
something else. The bp.conf entries are just a work around that keeps backups
rolling, but I still want the incorrect detection solved.

danke,

der.hans

> At 09:42 AM 2/26/99 -0800, LuftHans wrote:
> >moin, moin,
> >
> >we're using axxion's netbackup package and keep running into a problem
> >that hangs the backup for a machine.
> >
> >The error is as follows:
> >
> >host.domain.com host.domain.com  FREEZING
> >media id 213, it contains ANSI-format data and cannot
> >be used for backups
> >
> >
> >This particular cut and paste is from the main server, but we get the same
> >result with correct hostname and media id for the situation for all of the
> >problems.
> >
> >These don't occur very often or on a regular basis, but we do get several a
> >month. Machines are hit individually.
> >
> >We've dd'd the headers off the tapes and they have the veritas id markers on
> >them as well as backup data from the prvious backup.
> >
> >We've run into this problem with dats and exabyte 8mm tapes. We have not yet
> >had any probs with dlt 4000s or 7000s, but we only have a few of them.
> >
> >The people working on this have been working on it for months and not figured
> >it out yet. I'm tired of hearing about the problem :). They have been working
> >with veritas as well.
> >
> >Has anyone in SAGEland run into this problem and solved it?
> >
> >danke,
> >
> >der.hans
> >
> ># +++++++++++=================================+++++++++++ #
> >#                   LuftHans@asu.edu                      #
> >#            http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/              #
> >#         Help Jerry Lewis stamp out M$...oops,           #
> >#                  that's MDA - der.hans                  #
> ># ===========+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=========== #
> >
> 
> --
> |Keith Farrar | Xerox PARC CSNS | Palo Alto, CA | (650) 812-4292 |
> |farrar@parc.xerox.com     | "That which does not kill you gives |
> |                          |  you interesting scars."  - Kyle B. |
> 

# +++++++++++=================================+++++++++++ #
#                   LuftHans@asu.edu                      #
#            http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/              #
#         Science is magic explained. - der.hans          #
# ===========+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=========== #



From sage-members-owner  Sat Feb 27 22:33:21 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA24590
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:33:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: from granite.plpt.com ([199.181.238.77])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA24565
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:33:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: by granite.plpt.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
	id <FW67828Q>; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:32:06 -0800
Message-ID: <0D7E878509BED111BEAC00A0C9A3CA600CD129@granite.plpt.com>
From: "Company, Paul" <paul.company@plpt.com>
To: "Company, Paul" <paul.company@plpt.com>, "'sage-members@usenix.org'"
	<sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: OMNICONF
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:32:04 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.ORG id WAA24581
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I'm trying to contact Imazu Hideyo < himazu@ms.com <mailto:himazu@ms.com> >
 
He wrote a paper titled,
    "OMNICONF - Making OS Upgrades and Disk Crash Recovery Easier" 
for   USENIX LISA - September 19-23, 1994 - San Diego, CA
http://www.usenix.org/publications/library/proceedings/lisa94/hideyo.html
<http://www.usenix.org/publications/library/proceedings/lisa94/hideyo.html> 
 
His email address is the only contact information in the paper.
 
I sent him email multiple times over the last 3 months, but never received
any replies.
 
I'd like to know the status of OMNICONF and whether it is available thru the
Internet? 
 
Are SAGE memebers aware of OMNICONF and its status? 
 
Thank you,
 
    Paul Company
    Network Systems Manager
    PulsePoint Communications
 



From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar  1 09:25:10 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA16183
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:25:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hac2arpa.hac.com (hac2arpa.HAC.COM [192.27.0.10])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA16145
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:24:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: from seasnake.hac.com ([147.19.100.40]) by hac2arpa.hac.com
	(4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03225; Mon, 1 Mar 99 09:20:53 PST
Received: from seasnake (seasnake [147.19.100.40])
	by seasnake.hac.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA13919
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:22:12 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903011722.JAA13919@seasnake.hac.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:22:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Mario Obejas BSYS <obejas@phylum.hac.com>
Reply-To: Mario Obejas BSYS <obejas@phylum.hac.com>
Subject: Unix style NT remote sysadmin tools
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Md5: HVvX/9me0njtF/VhWbWAZg==
X-Mailer: dtmail 1.2.0 CDE Version 1.2 SunOS 5.6 sun4m sparc 
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

In my engineering support world, we have some engineers who use certain 
mechanical CAD applications (e.g., ProEngineer) on a part time basis and are 
requesting a switch to an NT system from their current Unix and Win95 setup. 
Typically, this is driven by the fact that the engineer just got his desktop PC 
upgraded (e.g., to a 400MHz box) and now wants to exclusively use his zippy PC. 

My sysadmin group is leery of additional NT support burdens as we are 
understaffed and the NT percentage is growing. We are looking for any tools 
which allow us to do remote administration and checkout on the NT boxen as we do 
on the Unix hosts. A typical example: we would like to be able to telnet in to a 
user's machine, setenv DISPLAY, then run the X11 application looking for 
anomalies.

I've seen Interex advertise at LISA ("If you're banished to NT, at least take 
your Unix tools with you") and I've heard mention of Nutcracker. Without taking 
up too much bandwidth here, I'd like to know what tools others are successfully 
using to deal with NT users to avoid the need for physical presence. In my case, 
there are ~20 sysadmins dealing with 800+ workstations with engineer users, in 
geographically dispersed sites. Physical presence for some sites is not possible 
100% of the time. It would be best if could do much of our work remotely, as we 
do on the Unix hosts. 

TIA for any comments.
 
-Mario Obejas
obejas@phylum.hac.com



From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar  1 11:15:19 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27231
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:15:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: from lisa.cs.mcgill.ca (maclean@lisa.CS.McGill.CA [132.206.51.241])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA27222
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:15:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from maclean@localhost)
	by lisa.cs.mcgill.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14259;
	Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:12:27 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199903011912.OAA14259@lisa.cs.mcgill.ca>
From: maclean@CS.McGill.CA (Matthew SAMS)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:12:27 -0500
In-Reply-To: Mario Obejas BSYS <obejas@phylum.hac.com>
	"Unix style NT remote sysadmin tools" (Mar  1,  9:22)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92)
To: Mario Obejas BSYS <obejas@phylum.hac.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Unix style NT remote sysadmin tools
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

| geographically dispersed sites. Physical presence for some sites is not
| possible 100% of the time. It would be best if could do much of our work
| remotely, as we do on the Unix hosts. 

I'm not an NT admin but our help desk uses SMS to manage software
packages on our desktops and PC Anywhere to take control of our
desktop when they need to see what we're seeing.

-Matthew


From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar  1 13:46:00 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA10238
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:46:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA10221
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:45:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: [from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by
	motgate.mot.com (MOT-motgate 1.0) with ESMTP id PAA09431 for
	<sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:43:33 -0600 (CST)]
Received: [from m-az33-r2.mot.com (m-az33-r2.mot.com [129.188.127.12]) by
	mothost.mot.com (MOT-mothost 1.0) with ESMTP id PAA09131 for
	<sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:43:32 -0600 (CST)]
Received: from plantation.comm.mot.com by m-az33-r2.mot.com with ESMTP for
	sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:43:31 -0700
Received: from plhp002.comm.mot.com ([145.2.148.3]) by plnt014.comm.mot.com
	with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version
	5.5.2232.9) id FW4B4A5N; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:43:31 -0500
Received: from plhp049.comm.mot.com (brownmic@plhp049b [145.2.149.44])
	by plhp002.comm.mot.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id
	QAA06440
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:43:27 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from brownmic@localhost) by plhp049.comm.mot.com (8.8.6
	(PHNE_14041)/8.7.3) id QAA02162 for sage-members@usenix.org;
	Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:43:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Rogero Brown <brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com>
Message-Id: <199903012143.QAA02162@plhp049.comm.mot.com>
Subject: Re: Unix style NT remote sysadmin tools
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 16:43:26 EST
In-Reply-To: <199903011722.JAA13919@seasnake.hac.com>;
	from "Mario Obejas BSYS" at Mar 1, 99 9:22 am
X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 212.4]
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Note- I did a reply to this note that I intended to go to the whole list, but
didn't.  Let me try again.

> 
> In my engineering support world, we have some engineers who use certain 
> mechanical CAD applications (e.g., ProEngineer) on a part time basis and are 
> requesting a switch to an NT system from their current Unix and Win95 setup. 
> Typically, this is driven by the fact that the engineer just got his desktop PC 
> upgraded (e.g., to a 400MHz box) and now wants to exclusively use his zippy PC. 
> 
> My sysadmin group is leery of additional NT support burdens as we are 
> understaffed and the NT percentage is growing. We are looking for any tools 
> which allow us to do remote administration and checkout on the NT boxen as we do 
> on the Unix hosts. A typical example: we would like to be able to telnet in to a 
> user's machine, setenv DISPLAY, then run the X11 application looking for 
> anomalies.
>

While you can telnet to a NT (IF you put a telnet daemon on it.  We use the
one that comes with Hummingbird Exceed), you can NOT set the display back to
your system.  This is an X-ism that is missing from Windows.  You can do quite
a bit of stuff with several CLI commands, but that's it.
 
> I've seen Interex advertise at LISA ("If you're banished to NT, at least take 
> your Unix tools with you") and I've heard mention of Nutcracker. Without taking 
> up too much bandwidth here, I'd like to know what tools others are successfully 
> using to deal with NT users to avoid the need for physical presence. In my case, 
> there are ~20 sysadmins dealing with 800+ workstations with engineer users, in 
> geographically dispersed sites. Physical presence for some sites is not possible 
> 100% of the time. It would be best if could do much of our work remotely, as we 
> do on the Unix hosts. 
>

Interex and Nutcracker are not meant to be NT admin tools.  Interext puts a
Unix subsystem on your NT.  Nutcracker is used to convert your Unix apps to
NT apps.  That's not what you want.

Frankly, NT is poor on remote admin stuff.  You can do quite a bit with some
of the tools, if you are on a NT.  User Manager, Server Manager, Event Viewer,
Performance Monitor, and others can connect to remote NTs and do certain things.
SMS will allow you to do more.  However, there are still many things that can
only be done from the console of the NT.  So you're forced to use one of the
several remote control tools like PCanywhere, Timbuktu, Remotely Possible, and
the like.  If you are dealing with systems in remote locations, you should
definetly go with that.

The NT Resource Kit has several little tools that can help with admin tasks,
but still many require that you be on the system.  Some are command line based
so telnet might work, but others will need console access.

I know that SANS was working on a report of NT Power Tools, but were forcusing
on the big ones like CA Unicenter, Tivoli, SMS, and the like.

This is an area that would really benefit by a good overview.  Possible 
paper topic for LISA-NT???

 
--
Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.  
Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.


From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar  1 16:48:12 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA28443
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:48:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: from esscor.com (esscor.cts.com [204.94.79.156])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA28419
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:47:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: from tomz (tomz.esscor.com [164.168.10.141]) by esscor.com
	(8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA04093 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:45:14 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19990302004517.006dadc0@esscor.com>
X-Sender: tomz@esscor.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 16:45:17 -0800
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Tom Zacharoff <tomz@esscor.com>
Subject: Re: Unix style NT remote sysadmin tools
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

>Without taking 
>up too much bandwidth here, I'd like to know what tools others are
successfully 
>using to deal with NT users to avoid the need for physical presence.

Try using VNC (Virtual Network Computing). I just found out about it while
reading the February 1999 Linux Journal magazine. Go to
http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc for more information. It's free and it runs on
UNIX, MacOS, Microsoft Windows NT/95/98, Palm Pilot, Java, you name it... I
haven't actually tried it yet but I'm just about to. I'll let ya know how it
goes.



From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar  1 17:31:39 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA02880
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:31:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-lax-2.pilot.net (mail-lax-2.pilot.net [205.139.40.16])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02857
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:31:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mailgw.pinkertons.com (unknown-23-150.pinkertons.com
	[204.48.23.150] (may be forged))
	by mail-lax-2.pilot.net (Pilot/) with ESMTP id RAA19218
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:29:18 -0800 (PST)
Received: from usazexg001.whq.pinkertons.com ([10.1.1.11]) by
	mailgw.pinkertons.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02502 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:29:13 -0800 (PST)
Received: by usazexg001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3)
	id <FZ4CNX7V>; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:22:24 -0800
Message-ID: <B0F03DD29DA0D211ACCD00805FA7A0DB2A3C0A@usazexg001>
From: "Matthew Sparks (05-025)" <Matthew_Sparks@usa.Pinkertons.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Sometimes the goodguys win.
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:22:18 -0800 
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Because of some non-y2k compliant hardware, We need to rehost an app.
Because certain parties dislike UNIX, It was planned to rehost it from
UNIX to NT. This project is currently 150 remotely managed UNIX servers
running a custom built app. I was the sole voice crying UNIX in the
wilderness. after a year of development and QA the software is ready to
port to NT. The powers that be began to look at issues like remote
admin. (We always planned to use the compaq insight manager board or the
intel version of the same.) and communication issues. A lot of our users
have Terminals not p.c's. The project needs to be finished by our Y2k
deadline of 9/99. 

To Replicate the Functionality of UNIX on NT we needed to add some extra
software
MKS Toolkit for scripting
smartbatch32 for scheduling
stac replica for backups
UUPC for communication.
and others. 

Now that they are really looking at the issues and the costs. We are
going to re-roll a UNIX solution. I plan to do it in 1/3rd the time and
for .6 million less.

Sometimes the goodguys win.

Matt Sparks
Sr UNIX Systems Administrator
Pinkerton
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Michael Rogero Brown [SMTP:brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com]
> Sent:	Monday, March 01, 1999 1:43 PM
> To:	sage-members@usenix.ORG
> Subject:	Re: Unix style NT remote sysadmin tools
> 
> Note- I did a reply to this note that I intended to go to the whole
> list, but
> didn't.  Let me try again.
> 
> > 
> > In my engineering support world, we have some engineers who use
> certain 
> > mechanical CAD applications (e.g., ProEngineer) on a part time basis
> and are 
> > requesting a switch to an NT system from their current Unix and
> Win95 setup. 
> > Typically, this is driven by the fact that the engineer just got his
> desktop PC 
> > upgraded (e.g., to a 400MHz box) and now wants to exclusively use
> his zippy PC. 
> > 
> > My sysadmin group is leery of additional NT support burdens as we
> are 
> > understaffed and the NT percentage is growing. We are looking for
> any tools 
> > which allow us to do remote administration and checkout on the NT
> boxen as we do 
> > on the Unix hosts. A typical example: we would like to be able to
> telnet in to a 
> > user's machine, setenv DISPLAY, then run the X11 application looking
> for 
> > anomalies.
> >
> 
> While you can telnet to a NT (IF you put a telnet daemon on it.  We
> use the
> one that comes with Hummingbird Exceed), you can NOT set the display
> back to
> your system.  This is an X-ism that is missing from Windows.  You can
> do quite
> a bit of stuff with several CLI commands, but that's it.
>  
> > I've seen Interex advertise at LISA ("If you're banished to NT, at
> least take 
> > your Unix tools with you") and I've heard mention of Nutcracker.
> Without taking 
> > up too much bandwidth here, I'd like to know what tools others are
> successfully 
> > using to deal with NT users to avoid the need for physical presence.
> In my case, 
> > there are ~20 sysadmins dealing with 800+ workstations with engineer
> users, in 
> > geographically dispersed sites. Physical presence for some sites is
> not possible 
> > 100% of the time. It would be best if could do much of our work
> remotely, as we 
> > do on the Unix hosts. 
> >
> 
> Interex and Nutcracker are not meant to be NT admin tools.  Interext
> puts a
> Unix subsystem on your NT.  Nutcracker is used to convert your Unix
> apps to
> NT apps.  That's not what you want.
> 
> Frankly, NT is poor on remote admin stuff.  You can do quite a bit
> with some
> of the tools, if you are on a NT.  User Manager, Server Manager, Event
> Viewer,
> Performance Monitor, and others can connect to remote NTs and do
> certain things.
> SMS will allow you to do more.  However, there are still many things
> that can
> only be done from the console of the NT.  So you're forced to use one
> of the
> several remote control tools like PCanywhere, Timbuktu, Remotely
> Possible, and
> the like.  If you are dealing with systems in remote locations, you
> should
> definetly go with that.
> 
> The NT Resource Kit has several little tools that can help with admin
> tasks,
> but still many require that you be on the system.  Some are command
> line based
> so telnet might work, but others will need console access.
> 
> I know that SANS was working on a report of NT Power Tools, but were
> forcusing
> on the big ones like CA Unicenter, Tivoli, SMS, and the like.
> 
> This is an area that would really benefit by a good overview.
> Possible 
> paper topic for LISA-NT???
> 
>  
> --
> Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for
> myself.  
> Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are
> my own
> Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the
> opinions of
> email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar  2 04:18:18 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA05639
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 04:18:18 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail2.desupernet.net (qmailr@mail2.desupernet.net
	[204.249.184.37]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA05630
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 04:18:12 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903021218.EAA05630@usenix.ORG>
Received: (qmail 14326 invoked from network); 2 Mar 1999 12:14:31 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO lisa) (@208.170.178.79)
	by mail2.desupernet.net with SMTP; 2 Mar 1999 12:14:31 -0000
X-Sender: 00507-brs@mail.redrose.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 07:12:30 -0500
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
Subject: Network re-numbering
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

This may not belong on this list, but the comp.os.*.networking folks don't
seem to want to answer and I'm running out of time.

The network where I work was originally numbered using arbitrary numbers
that do belong to someone else.  I would like to renumber the network but
am unsure as to the best method for this.

Is there anything wrong with using the "private" class A address, subnetted
to class B or C if needed?  Might it be better to use class "B" or class
"C" addresses  if that is where the network is heading anyway?  We are
still unsure as to where the network boundaries will end up as departments
are still changing as the company experiences yet another year of growth.
I would like to only have to do this once. :-)

Any help or experiences are greatly appreciated.
	Bennett




From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar  2 05:53:23 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA14478
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 05:53:23 -0800 (PST)
Received: from supermarine.crossflight.co.uk
	(root@supermarine.crossflight.co.uk [195.172.72.3])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA14458
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 05:53:13 -0800 (PST)
Received: from crossflight.co.uk (northrop.crossflight.co.uk [195.172.72.7])
	by supermarine.crossflight.co.uk (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA24795; 
	Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:50:43 GMT
Message-ID: <36DBECB2.9FE8EE6A@crossflight.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 13:50:42 +0000
From: Guy Dawson <guy@crossflight.co.uk>
Reply-To: guy@crossflight.co.uk
Organization: Crossflight Ltd
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
CC: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Network re-numbering
References: <199903021218.EAA05630@usenix.ORG>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



Bennett Samowich wrote:
> 
> This may not belong on this list, but the comp.os.*.networking folks don't
> seem to want to answer and I'm running out of time.

You've got a moving target - looks like fun!

> The network where I work was originally numbered using arbitrary numbers
> that do belong to someone else.  I would like to renumber the network but
> am unsure as to the best method for this.
> 
> Is there anything wrong with using the "private" class A address, subnetted
> to class B or C if needed?  Might it be better to use class "B" or class
> "C" addresses  if that is where the network is heading anyway?  We are
> still unsure as to where the network boundaries will end up as departments
> are still changing as the company experiences yet another year of growth.
> I would like to only have to do this once. :-)

There are a couple of options... (as ever)

Use the 10.0.0.0 class A address and break it down into a whole
load of class B networks. I doubt each department will fill a
class B network. However, class Bs may not make geographic/
routing sense.

You could break down the A in to Bs and one or more Bs into
Cs. Depending on the H/W you have there may be options to 
supernet Cs and/or use non byte boundary network masks.

I think the main problem is not what can the technology do
but what's the problem.

If you don't know the boundaries the only way to get some
flexibility seems to be wasteful in terms of addresses and 
networks assigned.

YMMV...

Guy
-- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Guy Dawson                    I.T. Manager              Crossflight Ltd
guy@crossflight.co.uk         0973  797819                 01753 776104


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar  2 06:09:46 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA15898
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 06:09:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from occam.com (host.metapath.com [207.14.52.62])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA15875
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 06:09:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from leonvs@localhost) by occam.com (8.9.1/8.9.1/2.0) id GAA21933;
	Tue, 2 Mar 1999 06:07:09 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903021407.GAA21933@occam.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2)
In-Reply-To: <199903021218.EAA05630@usenix.ORG>
X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 2.0b5)
Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2)
From: Leon von Stauber <leonvs@occam.com>
Date: Tue,  2 Mar 99 06:07:08 -0800
To: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
Subject: Re: Network re-numbering
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Reply-To: leonvs@occam.com
References: <199903021218.EAA05630@usenix.ORG>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

>The network where I work was originally numbered using arbitrary numbers
>that do belong to someone else.  I would like to renumber the network but
>am unsure as to the best method for this.
>
>Is there anything wrong with using the "private" class A address,
>subnetted to class B or C if needed? Might it be better to use class "B"
>or class "C" addresses if that is where the network is heading anyway? We
>are still unsure as to where the network boundaries will end up as
>departments are still changing as the company experiences yet another year
>of growth. I would like to only have to do this once. :-)
>
>Any help or experiences are greatly appreciated.
>Bennett

Technically, it doesn't matter which set of addresses you use.
The only thing is that some devices will choose default netmasks
based on which addresses you choose (Class A/B/C), but that's not
really a big deal, since you may not want that.

There are, however, a couple of non-technical issues. The obvious
one is to give yourself room to grow. These are basically free
IP addresses, so no one will complain if you're an inefficient
address hog.

Another consideration comes into play if you have (or will have)
network connections to sites w/ different networking schemes, and
no network address translation b/t you and them. Examples would
be remote offices over which you don't have much control, or
customer/supplier networks (i.e., an "extranet", in the parlance
of the day). Avoid choosing IP addresses that will conflict w/
them.

As an example, we're completing a renumbering plan at my current
employer in the wake of a merger. We're using the non-routable
Class B addresses (172.16.x.x - 172.31.x.x), so that we have
plenty of room to expand, both numerically and geographically,
w/ lots of subnetting options. The reason we didn't use the
Class A set (10.x.x.x) is b/c several of our customers use them.
You'll find that to be common; using 10.x.x.x seems to be the
most popular choice among the "private" addresses, and you may
want to avoid using them for that reason.

_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber		http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer		<leonvs@occam.com>
Metapath Software, UNIX/Security Admin	<lvonstau@metapath.com>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar  2 06:55:03 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA19785
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 06:55:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from sekrit.office.oceanwave.com (laslo.ne.mediaone.net
	[24.128.67.33]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA19732
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 06:54:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from arr@localhost)
	by sekrit.office.oceanwave.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA17312;
	Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:52:43 -0500 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: sekrit.office.oceanwave.com: arr set sender to
	arr@sekrit.office.oceanwave.com using -f
Message-ID: <14043.64312.216331.405809@sekrit.office.oceanwave.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:52:40 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: <arr@oceanwave.com> (A. Rich)
To: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Network re-numbering
In-Reply-To: <199903021218.EAA05630@usenix.ORG>
References: <199903021218.EAA05630@usenix.ORG>
X-Mailer: VM 6.63 under Emacs 20.3.1
X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5B F5 08 B3 6B 11 72 BD  19 29 1B 98 D2 94 77 D8
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

brs> Is there anything wrong with using the "private" class A address,
brs> subnetted to class B or C if needed?  Might it be better to use class "B"
brs> or class "C" addresses if that is where the network is heading anyway?
brs> We are still unsure as to where the network boundaries will end up as
brs> departments are still changing as the company experiences yet another
brs> year of growth.  I would like to only have to do this once. :-)

I'm guessing you're talking IPv4 here...

Unless you're going to have a very large number of _subnets_, then using a
class B or multiple class C's is probably the easiest.  There's nothing wrong
with using a reserved class A (since no one on the outside should ever see
those packets), but it's probably overkill.  If you plan on having internal
subnets, using one class C could make things less easy if you plan to do any
subnetting (especially if you're a network admin novice, and/or if you need to
deligate DNS ownership to various subnets).

Be sure that you use a reserved address and not one belonging to someone else,
as you mentioned.  Should you actually get internet connectivity for your
workplace at some point in the future, then you can either 1) get a big enough
block of addresses (a class C, multiple class C's, whatever) to route your
entire network, or, less wastefully and more securely, 2) NAT those machines
that must be reachable from the outside, and you'll not have to renumber
anything on your network (besides dropping in a new router and using it as
your default gateway).

For a quick set of charts on subnetting, take a look at:
http://www.oceanwave.com/technical-resources/network-admin/ip.html

It also has pointers to the RFCs pertinent to subnetting and lists the
reserved addresses you can/can't use.

-- 
Amy Rich <arr@oceanwave.com>                    Oceanwave Consulting, Inc.
UNIX Systems Administration Consultant          12 Hines Way
http://www.oceanwave.com/                       Marblehead, MA  01945
Phone: 781-631-6160                             Fax: 781-631-6160


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar  2 08:17:11 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA27295
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:17:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gate.mental.com (gate.mental.com [192.31.14.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA27286
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:17:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from uucp@localhost)
	by gate.mental.com (8.8.5/8.8.8/Lobo-19990108) id RAA25732;
	Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:14:27 +0100 (CET)
Received: from twen-et(172.16.0.5) by gate via smap (V2.0)
	id xma025730; Tue, 2 Mar 99 17:14:09 +0100
Received: (from smap@localhost) by mental.com (8.6.12/8.6.12/Lobo-980925)
	id RAA10739; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:14:09 +0100
Message-Id: <199903021614.RAA10739@mental.com>
Received: from twen(172.17.0.5) by twen via smap (V2.0)
	id xma010731; Tue, 2 Mar 99 17:14:01 +0100
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
To: Leon von Stauber <leonvs@occam.com>
Cc: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Network re-numbering 
In-reply-to: Leon von Stauber's message of Tue,
	02 Mar 1999 06:07:08 PST <199903021407.GAA21933@occam.com> 
Organization: mental images GmbH & Co. KG, Berlin, Germany
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 17:14:01 +0100
From: Alexander Lobodzinski <lobo@mental.com>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

() The reason we didn't use the
() Class A set (10.x.x.x) is b/c several of our customers use them.
() You'll find that to be common; using 10.x.x.x seems to be the
() most popular choice among the "private" addresses, and you may
() want to avoid using them for that reason.

Just came across a magazine article telling that the DHCP server
coming with "Backoffice Small Business Server" out of Redmond only
works if the net is 10.x.x.x - ugh!  ('Plain' NT servers are said
not to have this limitation.)

Not that I am suggesting or even tempted to run that piece of *beep*
but it might contribute to the situation you describe and influence
Bennett's decision.

    Ciao, Lobo

-- 
Alexander Lobodzinski <lobo@mental.com>		mental images, Berlin



From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar  2 08:24:51 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA28138
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:24:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: from claymoor.onyx.net (claymoor.onyx.net [194.176.71.33])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA28113
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:24:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from arm10@localhost)
	by claymoor.onyx.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01822;
	Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:27:58 GMT
Message-ID: <XFMail.990302162755.Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <199903011722.JAA13919@seasnake.hac.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 16:27:55 -0000 (GMT)
Organization: Onyx Internet
From: Adam Morris <Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
To: Mario Obejas BSYS <obejas@phylum.hac.com>
Subject: RE: Unix style NT remote sysadmin tools
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



Can I second the comment about VNC?

We have used it here to allow Windows 98 machines to view some X sessions...
(the 95 box crashes but they just reboot and connect to their VNC session) 

we have also used it for remote configuration of Windows 95 boxes over modem
lines (in particular for a visually impaired customer)...

it works very well at what it does...

Yours,

        Adam


- ----------------------------------
If this message isn't signed, it probably isn't me.
Adam Morris - Systems Engineer - Onyx Internet

$100 invested at 7% interest for 100 years will become $100,000, at
which time it will be worth absolutely nothing.
                -- Lazarus Long, "Time Enough for Love"

- ----------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNtwRgzxztoTO1QFNAQFsKwP/f4WwXHKgVOrWBnpfBM3ctnk27W/BJmCv
mHPZoCdMy+bSmEoV2tY48Di/mM0RK7bQIPg1eFlTsGY78lhPlUqGZf9XuGrGEPMB
ueBpId7i0NTewuy0isDNGFai/P15voznDGLBLe8XE4VDUg/+vaDd1EN8vcSppcMI
fnxqUHoDVIE=
=Oh5h
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar  2 11:32:03 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA15506
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:32:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA15497
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:31:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: [from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by
	ftpbox.mot.com (MOT-ftpbox 1.0) with ESMTP id NAA04121 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:29:43 -0600 (CST)]
Received: [from m-az33-r2.mot.com (m-az33-r2.mot.com [129.188.127.12]) by
	mothost.mot.com (MOT-mothost 1.0) with ESMTP id NAA21479 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:29:42 -0600 (CST)]
Received: from plantation.comm.mot.com by m-az33-r2.mot.com with ESMTP;
	Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:29:40 -0700
Received: from plhp002.comm.mot.com ([145.2.148.3]) by plnt014.comm.mot.com
	with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version
	5.5.2232.9) id FW4B4N26; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:29:39 -0500
Received: from plhp049.comm.mot.com (brownmic@plhp049b [145.2.149.44])
	by plhp002.comm.mot.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id
	OAA18648; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:29:30 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from brownmic@localhost) by plhp049.comm.mot.com (8.8.6
	(PHNE_14041)/8.7.3) id OAA17466; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:29:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Rogero Brown <brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com>
Message-Id: <199903021929.OAA17466@plhp049.comm.mot.com>
Subject: Re: Unix style NT remote sysadmin tools
To: tomz@esscor.com (Tom Zacharoff)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 14:29:28 EST
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19990302004517.006dadc0@esscor.com>;
	from "Tom Zacharoff" at Mar 01, 99 4:45 pm
X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 212.4]
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

> 
> >Without taking 
> >up too much bandwidth here, I'd like to know what tools others are
> successfully 
> >using to deal with NT users to avoid the need for physical presence.
> 
> Try using VNC (Virtual Network Computing). I just found out about it while
> reading the February 1999 Linux Journal magazine. Go to
> http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc for more information. It's free and it runs on
> UNIX, MacOS, Microsoft Windows NT/95/98, Palm Pilot, Java, you name it... I
> haven't actually tried it yet but I'm just about to. I'll let ya know how it
> goes.
> 
> 

The correct web page for this is now:
http://www.uk.research.att.com/vnc.  Apparently AT&T bougth out Olivetti
Research Lab.

--
Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.  
Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar  2 11:37:27 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA16082
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:37:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mistake.jxh.com ([209.157.132.34])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA16066
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:37:20 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mistake.jxh.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mistake.jxh.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA01676;
	Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:34:54 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903021934.LAA01676@mistake.jxh.com>
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
To: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Network re-numbering 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Mar 1999 07:12:30 EST."
	<199903021218.EAA05630@usenix.ORG> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 11:34:53 -0800
From: Jim Hickstein <jxh@jxh.com>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Also be sure to look at RFC-1627 "Network 10 Considered Harmful", the rebuttal
to RFC-1597 (later -1918).  It says it was obsoleted by -1918, but I can't
see how: none of its fundamental arguments are adequately addressed there.

You don't have to abandon the NAT route, but it's good to be informed
about the downside risks.  Just get good at renumbering.  You'll need to do
it again and again, no matter which option you choose.  DHCP is your friend.


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar  2 13:30:13 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA25103
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:30:13 -0800 (PST)
Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA25077
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:30:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail.inu.net by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP 
	(peer crosschecked as: [208.164.136.1]) id QQgevt08052
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:27:42 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <QQgevt08052.199903022127@relay2.UU.NET>
Received: from nexttown [208.129.164.20] by mail.inu.net
	(SMTPD32-4.06) id A6EF41B0138; Tue, 02 Mar 1999 15:23:59 CST
X-Sender: bobmartin@downtown.inu.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 15:25:58 -0600
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Bob Martin <BobMartin@inu.net>
Subject: Re: Unix style NT remote sysadmin tools
Cc: Mario Obejas BSYS <obejas@phylum.hac.com>
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19990302004517.006dadc0@esscor.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

We have a very mixed network, and remotely administer several mixed
networks for clients.
I strongly recommend the following tools:
Ataman's telnetd
Microsoft Windows NT resource kit
VNC
Mlink from CA
CRT from Van Dyke Technologies
Perl for Win32
HP Open View
SCO OFPS

We do most of our remote NT administration from the command line. Problem
is, NT doesn't come with a telnet deamon. (The one with the resource kit is
worthless). We have never had a problem with Ataman's.

The resource kit contains most of the commands you need so you can do
things like restart a remote machine. The resource kit also contains a set
of Unix commands ( vi, mv, cp, ln, etc).

VNC. We have been using VNC for a long time. It rocks. (If you have
programmers at your disposal, you can very easily create custom solutions
with VNC)
We script a lot of file transfers, so we use CA Mlink a lot. (It's awesome
for Unix to Unix transfers to)

Microsoft also lacks a decent telnet client. CRT from Van Dyke will give
your windows boxen a decent telnet/minicom tool.

Perl works as well on NT as it does on Unix, and for the most part, we've
had very little trouble porting Perl from one platform to the other. I
should add that we use a lot of TLC/TK programs too.

A really good SNMP management program (Like OV) will really simplify your
life.

If you need to integrate your network, SCO's open file and print sharing is
the most powerful integration tool in it's class. Load it on your Unix
server, and all of your NT servers will think it's NT. It handles
Unix/Windows file/printer sharing, and if you set it up as a Primary PDC,
you can manage all of your users from one place. OFPS works with most
commercial Unixes. 

Now for the bad news. Unix plays well with others, NT doesn't. If you can
only pick one box to run your network from, make it an NT box. It is much
easier to manage Unix and NT from NT.

I hope this helps some. 

Bob Martin




From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar  3 00:46:08 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA01486
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 00:46:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bw151zhb.bluewin.ch (bw151zhb.bluewin.ch [195.186.1.16])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA01475
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 00:46:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from lcsys.ch (zhb47pub157.bluewin.ch [195.186.47.157])
	by bw151zhb.bluewin.ch (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA24424
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:43:47 +0100 (MET)
Message-ID: <36DCF4C6.47D40801@lcsys.ch>
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 09:37:26 +0100
From: Roland Wepfer <rwe@lcsys.CH>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: UNIX-NT Integration
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I'm looking for a product to share disk space between a Solaris box and
a couple of NT Workstations. Samba can handle this but I have to compare
it against other (commercial) products. Are there solutions which
implement SMB (Samba does) that I don't have to add things to the
Mickeysoft boxes? If not, what can I expect from  PC-NFS
implementations?

thanks
Roland Wepfer




From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar  3 02:26:21 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA12393
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 02:26:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: from claymoor.onyx.net (claymoor.onyx.net [194.176.71.33])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA12382
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 02:26:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from arm10@localhost)
	by claymoor.onyx.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00369;
	Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:30:18 GMT
Message-ID: <XFMail.990303103018.Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <QQgevt08052.199903022127@relay2.UU.NET>
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:30:18 -0000 (GMT)
Organization: Onyx Internet
From: Adam Morris <Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
To: Bob Martin <BobMartin@inu.net>
Subject: Re: Unix style NT remote sysadmin tools
Cc: Mario Obejas BSYS <obejas@phylum.hac.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


On 02-Mar-99 Bob Martin wrote:
>
> Microsoft also lacks a decent telnet client. CRT from Van Dyke will give
> your windows boxen a decent telnet/minicom tool.
> 

I've noticed the poor telnet client already... Personally, I favour teraterm Pro
a nice piece of Freeware which also has working SSH extensions.  It's highly
configurable and scriptable.  

If you're interested in it, it is available from:-
http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA002416/teraterm.html

It is also available from TUCOWS mirrors.

I also use the TTSSH SSH extensions, which are referenced on the same page.  

Adam

- ----------------------------------
If this message isn't signed, it probably isn't me.
Adam Morris - Systems Engineer - Onyx Internet

Hindsight is an exact science.

- ----------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNt0POTxztoTO1QFNAQFdcwP+Mn3IF9MOI+HznVpJk/2847GqGxBUb1bV
j32RgUVyP17AmKrgocYu5OH28YtCvlUMUXFpGcpm/nXXhQeVnCxb9exTQ8LUToi3
ewbQ5ztVmTkbzNmqgl1AgKdy4ga+pRpeQ++Rw+JiAZ96bF9CWb/I60/pkYrs7Q42
KPE90Is1/gc=
=p27w
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar  3 04:46:28 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA26277
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 04:46:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: from infogate.media-saturn.com (infogate.media-saturn.com
	[194.25.146.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA26268
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 04:46:20 -0800 (PST)
Received: from backup.media-saturn.com (backup.media-saturn.com [172.16.1.155])
	by infogate.media-saturn.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA18952;
	Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:48:43 +0100
Received: from exchange.media-saturn.com ([172.16.1.92])
	by backup.media-saturn.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2
	release (PO205-101c) ID# 127-48801U2500L2500S0) with ESMTP
	id AAA163; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:39:15 +0100
Received: by exchange.media-saturn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
	id <FYNK72K7>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:42:31 +0100
Message-ID: <E89222CF3FC8D111B17500805FBB2B5501032069@exchange.media-saturn.com>
From: "Graumann, Thomas" <graumann@media-saturn.com>
To: "'BobMartin@inu.net'" <BobMartin@inu.net>
Cc: "'obejas@phylum.hac.com'" <obejas@phylum.hac.com>,
	"'sage-members@usenix.ORG'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Error-Message
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:42:30 +0100 
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by usenix.ORG id EAA26269
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Hello to all,

my person, as the eMail Postmaster of the Domain "media-saturn.com" receive
every day a lot of error messages from your Mail-Domain.

The message was addressed to "roeschs@media-saturn.com", but such
eMail-Adress
does not exist in our Mail-Domain.

Please delete this Mail-Adress from your Mailinglist.

Thank you.


Sinceraly
Thomas Graumann
Postmaster




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


On 02-Mar-99 Bob Martin wrote:
>
> Microsoft also lacks a decent telnet client. CRT from Van Dyke will give
> your windows boxen a decent telnet/minicom tool.
> 

I've noticed the poor telnet client already... Personally, I favour teraterm
Pro
a nice piece of Freeware which also has working SSH extensions.  It's highly
configurable and scriptable.  

If you're interested in it, it is available from:-
http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA002416/teraterm.html

It is also available from TUCOWS mirrors.

I also use the TTSSH SSH extensions, which are referenced on the same page.


Adam

- ----------------------------------
If this message isn't signed, it probably isn't me.
Adam Morris - Systems Engineer - Onyx Internet

Hindsight is an exact science.

- ----------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNt0POTxztoTO1QFNAQFdcwP+Mn3IF9MOI+HznVpJk/2847GqGxBUb1bV
j32RgUVyP17AmKrgocYu5OH28YtCvlUMUXFpGcpm/nXXhQeVnCxb9exTQ8LUToi3
ewbQ5ztVmTkbzNmqgl1AgKdy4ga+pRpeQ++Rw+JiAZ96bF9CWb/I60/pkYrs7Q42
KPE90Is1/gc=
=p27w
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Thomas Graumann
Accounts, Security & Auditing
Saturn-Media GfI mbh
mailto:graumann@media-saturn.com
Tel.: +49 841 634-488
Fax: +49 841 634-380




From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar  3 05:41:01 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA01337
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 05:41:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: from occam.com (host.metapath.com [207.14.52.62])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA01328
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 05:40:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from leonvs@localhost) by occam.com (8.9.1/8.9.1/2.0) id FAA22180;
	Wed, 3 Mar 1999 05:38:29 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903031338.FAA22180@occam.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2)
In-Reply-To: <36DCF4C6.47D40801@lcsys.ch>
X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 2.0b5)
Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2)
From: Leon von Stauber <leonvs@occam.com>
Date: Wed,  3 Mar 99 05:38:27 -0800
To: Roland Wepfer <rwe@lcsys.CH>
Subject: Re: UNIX-NT Integration
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Reply-To: leonvs@occam.com
References: <36DCF4C6.47D40801@lcsys.ch>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


>I'm looking for a product to share disk space between a Solaris box and
>a couple of NT Workstations. Samba can handle this but I have to compare
>it against other (commercial) products. Are there solutions which
>implement SMB (Samba does) that I don't have to add things to the
>Mickeysoft boxes? If not, what can I expect from  PC-NFS
>implementations?

Sun released a Solaris add-on product to do this sort of stuff
when they released Solaris 7. I don't remember the name of it,
but you can find plenty of info on their Web site.

_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber		http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer		<leonvs@occam.com>
Metapath Software, UNIX/Security Admin	<lvonstau@metapath.com>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar  3 07:02:06 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA09143
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:02:06 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail.inu.net (downtown.inu.net [208.129.164.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA09134
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:02:02 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903031502.HAA09134@usenix.ORG>
Received: from nexttown [208.129.164.20] by mail.inu.net
	(SMTPD32-4.06) id ADE9580B00F0; Wed, 03 Mar 1999 08:57:45 CST
X-Sender: bobmartin@downtown.inu.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 08:59:45 -0600
To: sage-members@usenix.org, Roland Wepfer <rwe@lcsys.CH>
From: Bob Martin <BobMartin@inu.net>
Subject: Re: UNIX-NT Integration
In-Reply-To: <36DCF4C6.47D40801@lcsys.ch>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

You might want to check these out:
SCO Open File and Print Services  
Hummingbird's Exceed
Sun also has integration products.

SAMBA is probably the best of it's kind. Just take's a little longer to
configure.

If you find a NFS product that works well on NT, let me know.

Bob


At 09:37 AM 3/3/99 +0100, you wrote:
>I'm looking for a product to share disk space between a Solaris box and
>a couple of NT Workstations. Samba can handle this but I have to compare
>it against other (commercial) products. Are there solutions which
>implement SMB (Samba does) that I don't have to add things to the
>Mickeysoft boxes? If not, what can I expect from  PC-NFS
>implementations?
>
>thanks
>Roland Wepfer
> 


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar  3 07:14:04 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10410
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:14:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from psasolar.colltech.com (psasolar.colltech.com [208.229.236.14])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10401
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:14:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (garner@localhost)
	by psasolar.colltech.com (VER/What/1.0) with ESMTP id JAA16360;
	Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:11:35 -0600 (CST)
X-Authentication-Warning: psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com: garner owned
	process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:11:35 -0600 (CST)
From: Dean Garner <garner@colltech.com>
X-Sender: garner@psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com
To: Leon von Stauber <leonvs@occam.com>
cc: Roland Wepfer <rwe@lcsys.CH>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: UNIX-NT Integration
In-Reply-To: <199903031338.FAA22180@occam.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9903030910160.12553-100000@psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

The name of this product is "Cascade".  It is available for Solaris 7, but
I am not sure that the product has actually been released as of yet.


______________________________________________________________________________

   ____                       ____  
  |    |                     |    |   Dean Garner - Consultant 
  |____| C o l l e c t i v e |____|   Email: garner@colltech.com 
  |                               |   CT Pager: 800-759-8888 Pin#303-7207 
  |_______                 _______| 
         []  Technologies []            
           A Pencom Company           "The power of many minds"
    
     Currently on site @ Motorola SPS, Tempe Arizona
                Motorola Phone: 602-413-7544



On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Leon von Stauber wrote:

> 
> >I'm looking for a product to share disk space between a Solaris box and
> >a couple of NT Workstations. Samba can handle this but I have to compare
> >it against other (commercial) products. Are there solutions which
> >implement SMB (Samba does) that I don't have to add things to the
> >Mickeysoft boxes? If not, what can I expect from  PC-NFS
> >implementations?
> 
> Sun released a Solaris add-on product to do this sort of stuff
> when they released Solaris 7. I don't remember the name of it,
> but you can find plenty of info on their Web site.
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> Leon von Stauber		http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
> Occam's Razor, Game Designer		<leonvs@occam.com>
> Metapath Software, UNIX/Security Admin	<lvonstau@metapath.com>
> "We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
> 



From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar  3 07:51:05 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA13942
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:51:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [129.188.136.102])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA13933
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:51:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: [from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by
	motgate2.mot.com (MOT-motgate2 1.0) with ESMTP id JAA13848 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:50:23 -0600 (CST)]
Received: [from m-az33-r1.mot.com (m-az33-r1.mot.com [129.188.127.11]) by
	pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 1.0) with ESMTP id JAA10603 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:48:49 -0600 (CST)]
Received: from plantation.comm.mot.com by m-az33-r1.mot.com with ESMTP for
	sage-members@usenix.ORG; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:48:33 -0700
Received: from plhp002.comm.mot.com ([145.2.148.3]) by plnt014.comm.mot.com
	with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version
	5.5.2232.9) id GFQTWWYZ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:48:34 -0500
Received: from plhp049.comm.mot.com (brownmic@plhp049b [145.2.149.44])
	by plhp002.comm.mot.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id
	KAA22625
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:48:25 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from brownmic@localhost) by plhp049.comm.mot.com (8.8.6
	(PHNE_14041)/8.7.3) id KAA11825 for sage-members@usenix.ORG;
	Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:48:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Rogero Brown <brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com>
Message-Id: <199903031548.KAA11825@plhp049.comm.mot.com>
Subject: Re: UNIX-NT Integration
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:48:23 EST
In-Reply-To: <36DCF4C6.47D40801@lcsys.ch>;
	from "Roland Wepfer" at Mar 03, 99 9:37 am
X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 212.4]
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

> 
> I'm looking for a product to share disk space between a Solaris box and
> a couple of NT Workstations. Samba can handle this but I have to compare
> it against other (commercial) products. Are there solutions which
> implement SMB (Samba does) that I don't have to add things to the
> Mickeysoft boxes? If not, what can I expect from  PC-NFS
> implementations?
> 
> thanks
> Roland Wepfer
> 

there are several commercial products that do what Samba does.  Most are
based on AT&T's original 'Advanced Server for Unix'.  [name is due to the fact
that NT Server was originall called 'NT Advanced Server'.  Don't ask me why].

Syntax Total Net Advantage is one of the better ones, and works well on 
Solaris and other Unices.  Have no idea if Sun has their own product.  HP has
their version of ASU that we have looked at [we have HP-UX servers]

There are also several PC-NFS products out there.  Disk Access from Intergraph,
NFS Maestro from Hummingbird, etc.  We had problems with earlier versions of
DiskAccess, but have no idea what the state of these products are today.

I'm pretty sure there was an issue of Windows NT Magazine or Windows NT Systems
that ran an article looking at all the SMB products and also one on NFS 
products.  Have to look thru my issues to find them.
[if you are going to be an NT Admin, I recommend both!  WNT Systems is free,
WNT Mag is not.  Both are good, and aimed at the techie/admin type.]

Hope this helps.
--
Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.  
Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar  3 08:41:03 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA18621
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:41:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA18598
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:40:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: [from pobox2.mot.com (pobox2.mot.com [129.188.137.195]) by
	motgate.mot.com (MOT-motgate 1.0) with ESMTP id KAA16438 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:38:45 -0600 (CST)]
Received: [from m-az33-r1.mot.com (m-az33-r1.mot.com [129.188.127.11]) by
	pobox2.mot.com (MOT-pobox2 1.0) with ESMTP id KAA19486 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:37:25 -0600 (CST)]
Received: from plantation.comm.mot.com by m-az33-r1.mot.com with ESMTP for
	sage-members@usenix.ORG; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:38:36 -0700
Received: from plhp002.comm.mot.com ([145.2.148.3]) by plnt014.comm.mot.com
	with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version
	5.5.2232.9) id GFQTWXST; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:38:39 -0500
Received: from plhp049.comm.mot.com (brownmic@plhp049b [145.2.149.44])
	by plhp002.comm.mot.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id
	LAA25266
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:38:34 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from brownmic@localhost) by plhp049.comm.mot.com (8.8.6
	(PHNE_14041)/8.7.3) id LAA29870 for sage-members@usenix.ORG;
	Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:38:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Rogero Brown <brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com>
Message-Id: <199903031638.LAA29870@plhp049.comm.mot.com>
Subject: UNIX-NT Integration
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 11:38:32 EST
In-Reply-To: <199903031502.HAA09134@usenix.ORG>;
	from "Bob Martin" at Mar 03, 99 8:59 am
X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 212.4]
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

In general there are several areas of Unix-NT intergration and NT Admin stuff
to look at.  Off the top of my head, there is:

Unix-NT File services.  You can go with putting a SMB product on your Unix
box with Samba, various commerical ASU (Advanced Server for Unix) products
like Sun's Cascade, HP's ASU, Syntax's Total Net Advantage, or put a NFS client
on your NT workstations(or NFS server on your NT Servers) like Hummingbird's
NFS Maestro or Integraphs DiskAccess or MRQ's product.

X Windows. there are several good PC X packages.  We use Hummingbird Exceed,
which includes their 'Host Explorer' suite of other network tools like a
nice telnet and ftp client and a telnet daemon.

Scripting. there is Win32 Perl, Win32 scripting (more then batch files, but
less then Unix shells), Windows Scripting Host, Tcl/Tk, and various Unix
shells.

Unix commands.  The NT reskit has lots of these.  There is also MKS toolkit,
and I think some GNU-like freeware in this area.

Remote Control.  Too many things in Windows requires console access.  So you
could use various commericial products like PCanywhere, Timbuktu, Remotely
Possible, or the VNC product recently mentioned.

There are also larger 'management suites' like CA Unicenter, Tivoli, SMS, and
the like.  These are good for monitoring and managing your systems.  Some only
do NT, some do NT and Unix.  These allow you to do inventory, monitor, 
licensing, software distribution, and the like.  With Unix most of us probably
put the apps on a server and mount on the workstations.  Too many Windows apps
expect to be installed locally (due to putting stuff all over the system
filesystem), so you need something like this if you don't want to be running
around installing apps (or have your users doing this and possible messing up
the systems).

Unfortunately this sort of information is not readily available in a central
location.  Some of the NT Admin-type magazines have run articles on some of
these areas (also seen a couple were the columnist lists their most useful
NT admin tools).  There are a couple of sites that have admins tools 
(www.systemtools.com and www.sysinternals.com are good).  Also important to
get the various NT Reskits.

A good survey of this area would be a good LISA-NT topic, I think.

--
Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.  
Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar  3 15:37:13 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA26920
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:37:13 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bytor.rush.net (lynch@bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA26909
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:37:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost)
	by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA25955;
	Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:34:21 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:34:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Lynch <lynch@rush.net>
To: Mario Obejas BSYS <obejas@phylum.hac.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Unix style NT remote sysadmin tools
In-Reply-To: <199903011722.JAA13919@seasnake.hac.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.05.9903031829560.506-100000@bytor.rush.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

well theres Citrix (is it WinFrame) or something like that that has a java
client and clients for various unices as well as a windows client. Theres
also VNC which can be found that http://www.uk.research.att.com/vnc, which
is free and GPL'ed, and theres client/servers for everything from palm
pilot to macs to windows to unix. I've found VNC pretty useful.

those are more like "PC Anywhere" type clients, as far as UNIX-like tools,
the best I've seen is OpenNT.

-P
___________________________________________________________________________

Pat Lynch						lynch@rush.net
Systems Administrator					Rush Networking

"Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"-
                                Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY

___________________________________________________________________________

On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Mario Obejas BSYS wrote:

> In my engineering support world, we have some engineers who use certain 
> mechanical CAD applications (e.g., ProEngineer) on a part time basis and are 
> requesting a switch to an NT system from their current Unix and Win95 setup. 
> Typically, this is driven by the fact that the engineer just got his desktop PC 
> upgraded (e.g., to a 400MHz box) and now wants to exclusively use his zippy PC. 
> 
> My sysadmin group is leery of additional NT support burdens as we are 
> understaffed and the NT percentage is growing. We are looking for any tools 
> which allow us to do remote administration and checkout on the NT boxen as we do 
> on the Unix hosts. A typical example: we would like to be able to telnet in to a 
> user's machine, setenv DISPLAY, then run the X11 application looking for 
> anomalies.
> 
> I've seen Interex advertise at LISA ("If you're banished to NT, at least take 
> your Unix tools with you") and I've heard mention of Nutcracker. Without taking 
> up too much bandwidth here, I'd like to know what tools others are successfully 
> using to deal with NT users to avoid the need for physical presence. In my case, 
> there are ~20 sysadmins dealing with 800+ workstations with engineer users, in 
> geographically dispersed sites. Physical presence for some sites is not possible 
> 100% of the time. It would be best if could do much of our work remotely, as we 
> do on the Unix hosts. 
> 
> TIA for any comments.
>  
> -Mario Obejas
> obejas@phylum.hac.com
> 



From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar  3 18:38:26 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA15103
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:38:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ESCHER.SD.BBN.COM (ESCHER.SD.BBN.COM [192.1.5.100])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15091
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:38:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: from marvin (MARVIN.SD.BBN.COM [192.1.5.6]) by ESCHER.SD.BBN.COM
	(8.7.5/8.6.4) with SMTP id SAA17368 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:36:06 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990303183650.01309180@escher.sd.bbn.com>
X-Sender: fmuller@escher.sd.bbn.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 18:36:50 -0800
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Frank Muller <fmuller@bbn.com>
Subject: question on UNIX aliases using sendmail
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I am trying to ensure an aliases exploder using simple /etc/aliases and
sendmail, sends email addressed to it including the sender when the sender
is on the list.

The behavior I am seeing is in /etc/aliases I have

aliasename::include:/filenamewithemailaddresses

my email address is in the file "filenamewithemailaddresses" along with
numerous others.  When I send to the aliases, all but myself recieve a
copy.  If however I place my email address as the last in the list I do get
a copy along with everyone else.

What I want to occur is everyone including the sender (in the list) getting
a copy (regardless of where they are in the list).  How can I configure,
sendmail, or sendmail.cf or some other file (on a Solaris 2.5 machine) so
that the desired result occurs?

thanks,

frank muller
fmuller@bbn.com


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar  3 20:24:07 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA25379
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:24:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from dhw.vip.best.com (dhw.vip.best.com [204.156.129.101])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA25370
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:23:59 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from david@localhost) by dhw.vip.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07928;
	Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:21:35 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:21:35 -0800 (PST)
From: David Wolfskill <david@dhw.vip.best.com>
Message-Id: <199903040421.UAA07928@dhw.vip.best.com>
To: fmuller@bbn.com, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re:  question on UNIX aliases using sendmail
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

>Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 18:36:50 -0800
>From: Frank Muller <fmuller@bbn.com>

>What I want to occur is everyone including the sender (in the list) getting
>a copy (regardless of where they are in the list).  How can I configure,
>sendmail, or sendmail.cf or some other file (on a Solaris 2.5 machine) so
>that the desired result occurs?

The option you seek is called "MeToo"; on the (sendmail) command line,
it may be specified via "-O MeToo".  It may also be specified in the
configuration file by placing

	define(`confME_TOO', True)dnl

in the .mc file before making the .cf file.


The latter option is rather coarsely-grained; it would affect all mail
handled by that sendmail, not just mail for the list in question.

Using mailx, one may also "set metoo" in one's ~/.mailrc.


As another approach, any process that prevents sendmail from knowing the
identity of the sender will also cause the behavior you seek.  A
commonly-used example of such a process is the use of a mailing-list
manager, such as majordomo, to handle mail for the list.

Cheers,
david
-- 
David H. Wolfskill				david@dhw.vip.best.com
As a computing professional, I believe it would be unethical for me to
advise, recommend, or support the use (save possibly for personal
amusement) of any product that is or depends on any Microsoft product.


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar  3 21:18:06 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA00782
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:18:06 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail.inu.net (downtown.inu.net [208.129.164.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA00773
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:18:01 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903040518.VAA00773@usenix.ORG>
Received: from nexttown [208.129.164.20] by mail.inu.net
	(SMTPD32-4.06) id A68E66C30118; Wed, 03 Mar 1999 23:13:50 CST
X-Sender: bobmartin@downtown.inu.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 23:15:50 -0600
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Bob Martin <BobMartin@inu.net>
Subject: Solaris Questions
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Just found out that I get to play with Solaris (2.6) next week.
What I need to know is:
Does Solaris have a good config tool like AIX's adminsmit, or SCO's
scoadmin, or am I better off with vi?

Any install tips for a Xeon based Compaq 6500?

TIA
Bob Martin


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar  3 22:30:19 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA07842
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:30:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: from post5.inre.asu.edu (post5.inre.asu.edu [129.219.110.86])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA07827
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:30:13 -0800 (PST)
Received: from general3.asu.edu by asu.edu (PMDF V5.1-12 #24133)
	with ESMTP id <01J8ETINUME28YDR6E@asu.edu> for sage-members@usenix.ORG;
	Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:29:33 MST
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by general3.asu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA07864; Wed,
	03 Mar 1999 23:27:57 -0700 (MST)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 23:27:57 -0700 (MST)
From: LuftHans <LuftHans@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Solaris Questions
In-reply-to: <199903040518.VAA00773@usenix.ORG>
X-Sender: lufthans@general3.asu.edu
To: Bob Martin <BobMartin@inu.net>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Message-id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990303232245.8632D-100000@general3.asu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Bob Martin wrote:

> Just found out that I get to play with Solaris (2.6) next week.
> What I need to know is:
> Does Solaris have a good config tool like AIX's adminsmit, or SCO's
> scoadmin, or am I better off with vi?

They've got a whole adminsuite thing that they tout as the be all end all of
admin suites :), but I what little I played with it didn't greatly impress me.

Also, it didn't have a "command" option like smitty, e.g. didn't tell me what
command it was running.

I want admin tools to be vi/emacs compatable and to in fact just be front ends
to the command line options. I was able to take something from smitty last
week and shove it in a script that is now cronable. I like that when having to
play with the odm...

ciao,

der.hans

> Any install tips for a Xeon based Compaq 6500?
> 
> TIA
> Bob Martin
> 

# +++++++++++=================================+++++++++++ #
#                   LuftHans@asu.edu                      #
#            http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/              #
#         Keine Ahnung, was ich dir sagen soll,           #
#     keine Ahnung und keinen Plan. -- die Toten Hosen    #
# ===========+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=========== #



From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar  4 02:33:56 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA03413
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 02:33:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.12.23])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA03396
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 02:33:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: (qmail 26393 invoked by uid 50); 4 Mar 1999 10:31:24 -0000
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Solaris Questions
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990303232245.8632D-100000@general3.asu.edu>
From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>
In-Reply-To: LuftHans's message of "Wed, 03 Mar 1999 23:27:57 -0700 (MST)"
Date: 04 Mar 1999 02:31:24 -0800
Message-ID: <ylu2w1o8ar.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>
Lines: 32
X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

LuftHans <LuftHans@asu.edu> writes:
> On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Bob Martin wrote:

>> Does Solaris have a good config tool like AIX's adminsmit, or SCO's
>> scoadmin, or am I better off with vi?

> They've got a whole adminsuite thing that they tout as the be all end
> all of admin suites :), but I what little I played with it didn't
> greatly impress me.

I've generally heard that using the admintool stuff is the best way to
configure printing.  This doesn't surprise me, as I've never found SysV
printing possessed of true ease of setup, and anything even vaguely
associated with printing tends to be out to get you.

For everything else, I've been managing Solaris boxes for several years
now with nothing more than a decent text editor (last time I ran admintool
was in 1995, and I don't even bother installing it any more).  Solaris
generally has a well-populated section 4 on-line manual that covers the
configuration files reasonably well.

I recommend people use the text file approach where possible because one
tends to be able to use one's experience with other Unixes on each new
platform and munging text files scales to hundreds of machines while
clicking things in admintool doesn't.

Disclaimer:  I don't use the automounter, and I don't use NIS+.  So it's
possible that admintool is the greatest thing since sliced bread for
configuring that stuff; I wouldn't know.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)         <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar  4 05:56:47 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA21935
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 05:56:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: from psasolar.colltech.com (psasolar.colltech.com [208.229.236.14])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA21924
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 05:56:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (garner@localhost)
	by psasolar.colltech.com (VER/What/1.0) with ESMTP id HAA19290;
	Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:54:27 -0600 (CST)
X-Authentication-Warning: psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com: garner owned
	process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:54:27 -0600 (CST)
From: Dean Garner <garner@colltech.com>
X-Sender: garner@psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com
To: Bob Martin <BobMartin@inu.net>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Solaris Questions
In-Reply-To: <199903040518.VAA00773@usenix.ORG>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9903040753050.12553-100000@psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Solaris 2.6 only has admintool for most of the simple admin duties.  It is
somewhat limited and performance isn't that great, but it works.  I prefer
command line myself...:)


______________________________________________________________________________

   ____                       ____  
  |    |                     |    |   Dean Garner - Consultant 
  |____| C o l l e c t i v e |____|   Email: garner@colltech.com 
  |                               |   CT Pager: 800-759-8888 Pin#303-7207 
  |_______                 _______| 
         []  Technologies []            
           A Pencom Company           "The power of many minds"
    
     Currently on site @ Motorola SPS, Tempe Arizona
                Motorola Phone: 602-413-7544



On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Bob Martin wrote:

> Just found out that I get to play with Solaris (2.6) next week.
> What I need to know is:
> Does Solaris have a good config tool like AIX's adminsmit, or SCO's
> scoadmin, or am I better off with vi?
> 
> Any install tips for a Xeon based Compaq 6500?
> 
> TIA
> Bob Martin
> 



From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar  4 07:03:09 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA27653
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:03:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: from wainapanapa.sj.ptc.com (mail-sj2.ptc.com [12.7.244.21])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA27644
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:03:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from chef (chef.sj.ptc.com [132.253.4.24])
	by wainapanapa.sj.ptc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id GAA21471;
	Thu, 4 Mar 1999 06:59:41 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990304065609.00a48100@mail.sj.ptc.com>
X-Sender: lsnyder@mail.sj.ptc.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 06:56:09 -0800
To: Frank Muller <fmuller@bbn.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
From: "Lowell R. Snyder Jr." <lsnyder@sj.ptc.com>
Subject: Re: question on UNIX aliases using sendmail
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990303183650.01309180@escher.sd.bbn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Depending on which version of sendmail you are running (you omitted that),
the option is the 'metoo' options.  It states to include a copy to yourself
when you originate the message (otherwise, it assume you know what you just
wrote).  However, this is not configurable at the mailing list level, but
only at the MTA level (it will apply to ALL messages).


At 06:36 PM 3/3/99 -0800, Frank Muller wrote:
>I am trying to ensure an aliases exploder using simple /etc/aliases and
>sendmail, sends email addressed to it including the sender when the sender
>is on the list.
>
>The behavior I am seeing is in /etc/aliases I have
>
>aliasename::include:/filenamewithemailaddresses
>
>my email address is in the file "filenamewithemailaddresses" along with
>numerous others.  When I send to the aliases, all but myself recieve a
>copy.  If however I place my email address as the last in the list I do get
>a copy along with everyone else.
>
>What I want to occur is everyone including the sender (in the list) getting
>a copy (regardless of where they are in the list).  How can I configure,
>sendmail, or sendmail.cf or some other file (on a Solaris 2.5 machine) so
>that the desired result occurs?
>
>thanks,
>
>frank muller
>fmuller@bbn.com
>
>
---
Lowell R. Snyder Jr.
Sr. Systems Administrator
Parametric Technology Corp.
lsnyder@ptc.com
408-953-8643



From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar  4 07:48:45 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA02068
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:48:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mailhost.blight.com (benjy@lucien.dreaming.blight.com
	[207.202.117.37]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA02059
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:48:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (benjy@localhost)
	by mailhost.blight.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA16125
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:46:26 -0600
X-Authentication-Warning: lucien.dreaming.blight.com: benjy owned process
	doing -bs
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:46:26 -0600 (CST)
From: Benjy Feen <benjy@feen.com>
X-Sender: benjy@lucien.dreaming.blight.com
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Solaris Questions
In-Reply-To: <ylu2w1o8ar.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.990304094427.22287C-100000@lucien.dreaming.blight.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Here's a rather broad solaris question:

Which of Solaris' "nifty laborsaving admin features" do you personally
turn off or ignore? I find that the more a Unix resembles a PC OS, the
less I like it...



                                    -=-
                                 Benjy Feen
                               benjy@feen.com
                            http://www.feen.com
                       Specialization is for insects.
                                    =-=



From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar  4 08:52:37 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA07856
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 08:52:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: from psasolar.colltech.com (psasolar.colltech.com [208.229.236.14])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA07841
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 08:52:30 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (cmh@localhost)
	by psasolar.colltech.com (VER/What/1.0) with ESMTP id KAA09428
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:50:19 -0600 (CST)
X-Authentication-Warning: psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com: cmh owned process
	doing -bs
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:50:19 -0600 (CST)
From: "Carolyn M. Hennings" <cmh@colltech.com>
X-Sender: cmh@psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: chigrp March Meeting Announcement (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9903041047270.7205-100000@psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



Join us at our next meeting where there will be an informative
presentation on:

  Downtime Management

  March 11, 1999
  7:00 - 9:00 pm
 
  ACNielsen Building
  150 North Martingale,
  Schaumburg IL


Abstract

While everyone would love a 24x7x365 site-wide uptime, the reality is
that these machines of ours need a little time offline for maintenance.
How do you schedule disruptive maintenance with a minimum of pain and
suffering to your customers? Or, just as importantly, without inciting
rebellion amongst your admins? Come and follow the year-long learning
experience that lead to our current downtime management process.

About the Speaker

Heather Garvey has been a systems administrator for Motorola
supporting the software engineering community for the past
5 years. Her primary function is currently Documentation
Librarian and Outage Coordinator.


Socializing

Following the presentation we will gather at Bennigan's at the
intersection of Higgins and Martingale. 


Directions

Located at 150 North Martingale Road, Between Higgins and Biesterfield,
just off of I-290/Route 53.

>From the South:

Exit I-290/Route 53 at Biesterfield, turn left (West) on Biesterfield. Turn
right (North) on Martingale Road. Proceed North on Martingale Road, past
stoplight at Schaumburg Road. Turn left (West) at ACNielsen sign (after
the Schaumburg Marriott Hotel).

>From the North:

Exit I-290/Route 53 at Higgins, turn right (West) on Higgins. Turn left
(South) on Martingale Road.  Proceed South on Martingale Road, past
stoplight at Corporate Crossing. Turn right (West) at ACNielsen sign
(before the Schaumburg Marriott Hotel).

Parking:

Parking is available in the parking a garage to the rear of the facility.
After parking take the elevator or stairs to the 2nd floor, then take the
walkway into the building lobby. Check in at  the ACNielsen desk, mention
you are with SAGE/chigrp, and you will be directed to the conference room
for the meeting.

Yahoo Map of area nearby 150 North Martingale Road, Schaumburg: 

http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=150+North+Martingale+Road&csz=601
73&Get+Map=Get+Map




From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar  4 10:24:14 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA16440
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:24:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ESCHER.SD.BBN.COM (ESCHER.SD.BBN.COM [192.1.5.100])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA16416
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:24:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from marvin (MARVIN.SD.BBN.COM [192.1.5.6]) by ESCHER.SD.BBN.COM
	(8.7.5/8.6.4) with SMTP id KAA08802;
	Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:21:49 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990304102229.01318b20@escher.sd.bbn.com>
X-Sender: fmuller@escher.sd.bbn.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 10:22:29 -0800
To: "Lowell R. Snyder Jr." <lsnyder@sj.ptc.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
From: Frank Muller <fmuller@bbn.com>
Subject: Re: question on UNIX aliases using sendmail
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990304065609.00a48100@mail.sj.ptc.com>
References: <3.0.3.32.19990303183650.01309180@escher.sd.bbn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Thanks to all those who have responded.  I turned on the "metoo" option using
OmTrue in the sendmail.cf file, but alas it is still not working.  The version
of sendmail is SMI 8.6 (the version that comes with Solaris 2.5.1).
Any other ideas?
(Yes I know I probably should compile my own version, which would solve the
problem, long term that will work, but in the short term I am still looking
for a solution using the version I have)
thanks

frank
fmuller@bbn.com



>Depending on which version of sendmail you are running (you omitted that),
>the option is the 'metoo' options.  It states to include a copy to yourself
>when you originate the message (otherwise, it assume you know what you just
>wrote).  However, this is not configurable at the mailing list level, but
>only at the MTA level (it will apply to ALL messages).
>
>
>At 06:36 PM 3/3/99 -0800, Frank Muller wrote:
>>I am trying to ensure an aliases exploder using simple /etc/aliases and
>>sendmail, sends email addressed to it including the sender when the sender
>>is on the list.
>>
>>The behavior I am seeing is in /etc/aliases I have
>>
>>aliasename::include:/filenamewithemailaddresses
>>
>>my email address is in the file "filenamewithemailaddresses" along with
>>numerous others.  When I send to the aliases, all but myself recieve a
>>copy.  If however I place my email address as the last in the list I do get
>>a copy along with everyone else.
>>
>>What I want to occur is everyone including the sender (in the list) getting
>>a copy (regardless of where they are in the list).  How can I configure,
>>sendmail, or sendmail.cf or some other file (on a Solaris 2.5 machine) so
>>that the desired result occurs?
>>
>>thanks,
>>
>>frank muller
>>fmuller@bbn.com
>>
>>
>---
>Lowell R. Snyder Jr.
>Sr. Systems Administrator
>Parametric Technology Corp.
>lsnyder@ptc.com
>408-953-8643
>
>
>


From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar  4 10:28:29 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA16820
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:28:29 -0800 (PST)
Received: from wainapanapa.sj.ptc.com (mail-sj2.ptc.com [12.7.244.21])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA16811
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:28:18 -0800 (PST)
Received: from chef (chef.sj.ptc.com [132.253.4.24])
	by wainapanapa.sj.ptc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA08864;
	Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:25:32 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990304102524.00bb47b0@mail.sj.ptc.com>
X-Sender: lsnyder@mail.sj.ptc.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 10:25:24 -0800
To: Frank Muller <fmuller@bbn.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
From: "Lowell R. Snyder Jr." <lsnyder@sj.ptc.com>
Subject: Re: question on UNIX aliases using sendmail
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990304102229.01318b20@escher.sd.bbn.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.19990304065609.00a48100@mail.sj.ptc.com>
	<3.0.3.32.19990303183650.01309180@escher.sd.bbn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Make sure you have frozen the configuration with /usr/lib/sendmail -bz (if
it's supported, I don't remember), and stopped and restarted sendmail
(/etc/init.d/sendmail stop; /etc/init.d/sendmail start).



At 10:22 AM 3/4/99 -0800, Frank Muller wrote:
>
>Thanks to all those who have responded.  I turned on the "metoo" option using
>OmTrue in the sendmail.cf file, but alas it is still not working.  The
version
>of sendmail is SMI 8.6 (the version that comes with Solaris 2.5.1).
>Any other ideas?
>(Yes I know I probably should compile my own version, which would solve the
>problem, long term that will work, but in the short term I am still looking
>for a solution using the version I have)
>thanks
>
>frank
>fmuller@bbn.com
>
>
>
>>Depending on which version of sendmail you are running (you omitted that),
>>the option is the 'metoo' options.  It states to include a copy to yourself
>>when you originate the message (otherwise, it assume you know what you just
>>wrote).  However, this is not configurable at the mailing list level, but
>>only at the MTA level (it will apply to ALL messages).
>>
>>
>>At 06:36 PM 3/3/99 -0800, Frank Muller wrote:
>>>I am trying to ensure an aliases exploder using simple /etc/aliases and
>>>sendmail, sends email addressed to it including the sender when the sender
>>>is on the list.
>>>
>>>The behavior I am seeing is in /etc/aliases I have
>>>
>>>aliasename::include:/filenamewithemailaddresses
>>>
>>>my email address is in the file "filenamewithemailaddresses" along with
>>>numerous others.  When I send to the aliases, all but myself recieve a
>>>copy.  If however I place my email address as the last in the list I do get
>>>a copy along with everyone else.
>>>
>>>What I want to occur is everyone including the sender (in the list) getting
>>>a copy (regardless of where they are in the list).  How can I configure,
>>>sendmail, or sendmail.cf or some other file (on a Solaris 2.5 machine) so
>>>that the desired result occurs?
>>>
>>>thanks,
>>>
>>>frank muller
>>>fmuller@bbn.com
>>>
>>>
>>---
>>Lowell R. Snyder Jr.
>>Sr. Systems Administrator
>>Parametric Technology Corp.
>>lsnyder@ptc.com
>>408-953-8643
>>
>>
>>
>
>
---
Lowell R. Snyder Jr.
Sr. Systems Administrator
Parametric Technology Corp.
lsnyder@ptc.com
408-953-8643



From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar  5 17:09:08 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA03114
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:09:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from metis.microunity.com (metis1.microunity.com [192.86.6.23])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA03098
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:08:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gaea.microunity.com (gaea.microunity.com [192.216.192.134])
	by metis.microunity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28797;
	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:06:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: from oceanus.microunity.com (vancleef@oceanus.microunity.com
	[192.216.197.51])
	by gaea.microunity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16418;
	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:05:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (vancleef@localhost)
	by oceanus.microunity.com (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04223;
	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:05:44 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: oceanus.microunity.com: vancleef owned process doing
	-bs
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:05:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Bob Van Cleef <vancleef@microunity.com>
To: mengel@fnal.gov
cc: Wally Iimura <iimura@microunity.com>,
	David Dennenberg <davidd@spectralogic.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: scsi_device.sh - linux scsi device driver script 
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9903051645200.4118-100000@oceanus.microunity.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


I made some minor changes to your script:
    (diff will tell the tale... :)

1 - changed the tape drive naming scheme to be
    /dev/rmt/st... /dev/rmt/st...n instead of /dev/rmt/tps....
    (just because I'm used to /dev/st... :)

2 - added the mknod for /dev/rmt/st...n as it was missing

3 - changed SCSIDIR to /dev/scsi from /dev/sc to match the comments,
    but changed the comments from /dev/tape to /dev/rmt to match TAPEDIR

This script works well.  Thank you very much for posting it.
I will be using it to configure our backup system.

Bob
><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>
Bob Van Cleef, Member of Technical Staff         (408) 734-8100
MicroUnity Systems Engineering, Inc.         FAX (408) 734-8136
475 Potrero Ave., Sunnyvale, CA 94086   vancleef@microunity.com
---------------------------------------------------------------
#!/bin/sh
# This script reads /proc/scsi/scsi and for each device it creates a
# special file /dev/scsi/sg<BUS>d<SCSI ID> with the
# minor number = the index of the device in /proc/scsi
#
# It also creates the files /dev/rmt/st<BUS>d<SCSI ID> and
#                           /dev/rmt/st<BUS>d<SCSI ID>n
# again with the minor number  = the index of the device in /proc/scsi for
# the rewind and norewind tape devices.
#
# This script is neccessary because the linux /dev/st and /dev/sg devices
# change as devices are added to a bus
#
# The script should normally be run at boot time or if the scsi
# configuration changes

TAPEDIR=/dev/rmt
SCSIDIR=/dev/scsi
if [ ! -d $TAPEDIR ]            # create the dirs if they
then                            #    don't exist
  mkdir $TAPEDIR
fi
if [ ! -d $SCSIDIR ]
then
  mkdir $SCSIDIR
fi

# remove old files

rm    $TAPEDIR/st*    $SCSIDIR/sc* 2> /dev/null

n=-1      # index of device in proc/scsi, minor # of sg device
t=-1      # index of tape devices in proc/scsi, # used in sg#

# read each record in proc scsi

cat /proc/scsi/scsi | while read a b c d e f g
do
   if [ ! $a = "Attached" ]
   then
      if [ \"$a\" = \"Host:\" ]
      then
         let n=n+1                      # increment index on first line
         bus=`echo $b|tr -d \"[a-z]\"`  #  in /proc/scsi/scsi
         let id=$f                      # get the bus and id (w/o leading 0)
         DRV=$TAPEDIR/"st"$bus"d"$id
         SCDRV=$SCSIDIR/"sc"$bus"d"$id
      fi
      if [ \"$c\" = \"Model:\" ]        # just interesting info
      then
         vend=$b
         mod=$d
      fi
      if [ $a = "Type:" ]
      then
         if [ \"$b\" = \"Sequential-Access\" ]    # identify tape device
         then
            let t=t+1
	    let u=t+128
            mknod ${DRV}  c 9 $t	# make the device
	    mknod ${DRV}n c 9 $u	# non-rewind device
            mknod $SCDRV  c 21 $n       # the scsi passthru device
         else                           # for non tape
            mknod $SCDRV  c 21 $n       # just make scsi device
         fi
      fi
    fi
done




From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar  8 07:54:44 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA01145
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 07:54:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: from storm.nando.net (storm.nando.net [152.52.2.139])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA01136
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 07:54:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from majordomo@localhost)
	by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA10156
	for ncsa-announce-outgoing; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:57:02 -0500 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: storm.nando.net: majordomo set sender to
	owner-ncsa-announce@nando.net using -f
Received: from lamb.sas.com (root@lamb.sas.com [192.35.83.8])
	by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10152
	for <ncsa-announce@nando.net>; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:56:59 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mozart (mozart.unx.sas.com [192.58.184.8])
	by lamb.sas.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA02554
	for <ncsa-announce@nando.net>; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:53:03 -0500 (EST)
Received: from ntgate01.pc.sas.com by mozart (5.65c/SAS/Domains/5-6-90)
	id AA16702; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:53:02 -0500
Received: by ntgate01.pc.sas.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
	id <FK74KYH1>; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:53:02 -0500
Message-Id: <FDAEB36E0478D211842100A0C9AB18CA74DC71@ntmail06.pc.sas.com>
From: Heather Flanagan <heflan@wnt.sas.com>
To: "'ncsa-announce@nando.net'" <ncsa-announce@nando.net>
Cc: "'triangle.talks@usenet.sas.com'" <triangle.talks@usenet.sas.com>
Subject: NC*SA meeting CANCELLED for March 8, 1999
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:53:01 -0500 
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Due to last minute difficulties, our March speaker, Ernest Bowman-Cisneros,
had to cancel.  But never fear!  We will continue our regularly scheduled
meetings in April, same bat-time, same bat-station.  Thank you, as always,
for your support!  

NC*SA is here to bring interesting speakers in and give us sys admins a time
to get out of the office to learn new things.  If you are interested in a
particular topic, or would like to see us go after a particular local
speaker, please let us know!  We'd like to hear from everyone!

See you in April!
Heather Flanagan
Secretary, NC*SA

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Heather Flanagan			Associate Systems Programmer
Information Systems Consulting		SAS Institute, Inc.
(919)677-8000 x5522			heflan@unx.sas.com



From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar  8 09:44:44 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA05825
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 09:44:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: from seadragon. (seadragon.mbt.washington.edu [128.95.231.151])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA05814
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 09:44:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: from u.washington.edu by seadragon. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id JAA07956; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 09:42:31 -0800
Message-ID: <36E40C9D.7F5FE179@u.washington.edu>
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 09:45:01 -0800
From: Leeland Artra <leeland@u.washington.edu>
Organization: Cellworks Project
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Next Seattle SAGE Group meeting Thursday March 11
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Greetings,

This Thursday (March 11, 1999) is the day for the next Seattle Sage Group
meeting.

The Seattle SAGE Group (SSG) is a local group for systems & network
administrators in the Seattle and Pacific Northwest areas (North Western
Washington). We are a local chapter of SAGE, but SAGE / USENIX membership is not
a requirement.  We sponsor a regular monthly meeting open to the public on the
second Thursday if each month at 7 p.m.

This is a reminder & announcement of the next meeting.

---

Next meeting: Thursday March 11, 7:00 PM
       Topic: "Oracle Security for Systems Administrators
              (aka Nice pay raise dude!)"
   Presenter: Leeland Artra
              Cellworks Project, MBT UW
    Location: Department of Molecular Biotechnology
              University of Washington
              K-Wing room K350 (3rd floor conference room)
    Web Site: http://cellworks.washington.edu/sage

---

This is FREE and open to the public and a wonderful opportunity.

NOTE: The K-Wing (and most of the UW) is locked up tight at ~6:30. We send
someone down every 10 min or so to the SOUTH side entrance (the one just next to
the bike rack and parking attendant booth on the bay side of the building).
Also, from the meeting room we can look down on that very doorway & part of the
covered bench to see if someone is waiting there. We generally keep checking
every 5-10 minutes or so through 7:30. Since the bench area with the bike racks
just outside the door is covered you may remain dry on a rainy evening. Hence,
if you stand close the building by the bench under the roof you will be dry and
visible to us from the meeting room. We also sometimes call down to see if
someone standing there is waiting for SAGE. So, you may hear a voice from above
inquiring about SAGE, don't be too alarmed....
;^)

Of course the best solution is to get here about 6:50 along with the majority of
others.

Check out our Web site for more information:
    http://cellworks.washington.edu/sage/


Cheers,
Leeland

-- 
// Leeland Artra                   Box 357730 Rm K343
// Senior Systems Administrator    Seattle, Washington 98195-7730
// Cellworks Project, UW           phone:206.616.7233 fax:206.685.7301
// mailto:leeland@u.washington.edu http://cellworks.washington.edu/


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar  9 09:31:15 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA04654
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:31:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from news.mag-net.com (news.mag-net.com [207.102.83.11])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA04642
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:31:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hope.UUCP (uucp@localhost)
	by news.mag-net.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with UUCP id JAA01851
	for usenix.org!sage-members; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:28:54 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:26:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Chriseli de Rama <chriseli@hh.bc.ca>
X-Sender: chriseli@hope
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: how do you know if you need a LAN switch?
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.3.91.990309092238.23040B-100000@hope>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

out of curiosity, how will i know if a LAN would need a lan switch? is it 
dependent on the number of users in a LAN? ideally, how many users should 
there be in a segment when a LAN switch is installed?

thanks.

chriseli


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar  9 10:45:56 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA08529
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:45:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: from peak.org (root@PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08496
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:45:43 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (sechrest@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peak.org
	(8.8.5/8.6.7) with ESMTP id KAA29085;
	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:43:08 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903091843.KAA29085@peak.org>
To: Chriseli de Rama <chriseli@hh.bc.ca>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: how do you know if you need a LAN switch? 
In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 09 Mar 1999 09:26:27 PST.
	<Pine.SCO.3.91.990309092238.23040B-100000@hope> 
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 10:43:07 -0800
From: John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



Chriseli de Rama <chriseli@hh.bc.ca> writes:

 % out of curiosity, how will i know if a LAN would need a lan switch? is it 
 % dependent on the number of users in a LAN? ideally, how many users should 
 % there be in a segment when a LAN switch is installed?


	A lan switch is a way to partition and expand bandwidth.
	It is also a way to limit access to packets.
	
	So it can be used as a security measure as well
	as a bandwidth tool.
	
	If you have machines that you want to limit what
	packets they see, then getting a switch makes sense.
	
	If you have a network with a traffic pattern that
	has some specific hot spots, then a switch can help
	that process.
	
	The best question to answer is to find out what the 
	traffic patterns for your network are. Then
	the switch question will fall out of that analysis.
	
	We use a switch to keep two of our customers from
	seeing the packets from the other, when we ran
	a lan down the hall for them.
	
	

-----
John Sechrest          .         Helping people use
   PEAK -               .           computers and the Internet
Public Electronic         .            more effectively
Access to Knowledge,Inc       .                      
850 SW 15th Street              .            Internet: sechrest@peak.org
Corvallis Oregon 97331               .                  (541) 754-7325
                                            . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar  9 11:05:04 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA09455
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:05:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from karoshi.ucsd.edu (karoshi.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.136])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA09415
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:04:52 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from brian@localhost)
	by karoshi.ucsd.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id LAA01553;
	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:02:38 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:02:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Kantor <brian@karoshi.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <199903091902.LAA01553@karoshi.ucsd.edu>
To: chriseli@hh.bc.ca, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: how do you know if you need a LAN switch?
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

We use Ethernet switches for two main purposes: traffic isolation and security.

A chief security application is that a compromised workstation cannot
learn much from snooping the network, as the only traffic that he'll see
other than that intended for him is broadcasts and multicasts, which
typically have less sensitive data in them than directed traffic does.

This is especially helpful when you have a typical University situation of
a number of workstations in a lab.

The traffic isolation has the potential of reducing contention for
bandwidth.  This contention on an Ethernet segment shows up as collisions
and delays.

It's hard to know exactly how many packet transmissions are delayed because
of busy traffic, but I feel that an Ethernet that is running more than
about 10% to 20% of capacity (i.e., 1 to 2 mb/s actual average traffic)
is probably beginning to degrade.

A collision rate above 1% to 2% is a hint of trouble too.  A switch can
help there - although if you have a really high collision rate, it's
probably a defective network interface or hub, or pieces of the network
may simply be over-length.

A lan monitor can tell you these statistics; borrow one and see how your
network goes.  You might be able to borrow one from your local Ethernet
switch vendor's engineering people, or rent one.

Once you decide you need a switch, how would you use it?

A simple situation is where the servers and workstations are all close
enough to the switch to each have their own port on the switch, or if ports
are at a premium, perhaps two to five workstations per port.  In this
setup, server traffic will be directed only to the workstation (or small
workstation cluster) which needs it.  This can be quite helpful when the
server is connected to a multi-speed switch at (e.g.) 100 mb/s, whilst the
client workstations are connected at 10 mb/s.

The same idea applies when you have clusters of workstations, each
switched, and the cluster switches are connected back to a server switch
via some high-speed path.  Here on our campus, the cluster switches
typically serve a wing of a building or a lab, and tend to be connected
together by 100mb/s Ether, 155mb/s ATM, 622mb/s ATM, or gigabit Ethernet.
Most of our network servers are interfaced to their switches at 100mb/s
using Ethernet, although some connect at higher speeds using ATM.

-- 
	Brian Kantor			brian@ucsd.edu
		Academic Computing Network Operations 0124
		University of California at San Diego
		La Jolla, CA 92093-0124 USA


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar  9 14:30:44 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA18497
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:30:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: from polya.mts.jhu.edu (root@polya.mts.jhu.edu [128.220.17.38])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA18488
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:30:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (bogstad@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by polya.mts.jhu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA03293;
	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 17:28:21 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199903092228.RAA03293@polya.mts.jhu.edu>
X-Authentication-Warning: polya.mts.jhu.edu: bogstad@localhost [127.0.0.1]
	didn't use HELO protocol
To: Brian Kantor <brian@karoshi.ucsd.edu>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: how do you know if you need a LAN switch? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Mar 1999 11:02:38 PST."
	<199903091902.LAA01553@karoshi.ucsd.edu> 
From: Bill Bogstad <bogstad@pobox.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 17:28:21 -0500
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


>We use Ethernet switches for two main purposes: traffic isolation and
>security.
>
>A chief security application is that a compromised workstation cannot
>learn much from snooping the network, as the only traffic that he'll see
>other than that intended for him is broadcasts and multicasts, which
>typically have less sensitive data in them than directed traffic does.
>
>This is especially helpful when you have a typical University situation of
>a number of workstations in a lab.

I've questioned the idea of the increased security of Ethernet switches for a
while now.  Yes, you can't immediately see all the traffic between two
machines when a switch is involved.  Assume an active attack against IP
traffic involving poisoning people's ARP caches so a 3rd party machine acts as
a hidden router between them.  I've never gone all the way to attempting to do
this, but I've done enough to consider it technically possible...

				Bill Bogstad
				bogstad@pobox.com



From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar  9 17:12:08 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA25496
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 17:12:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from vielle.datasys.net (mark@vielle.datasys.net [204.252.164.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25455
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 17:11:50 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from mark@localhost)
	by vielle.datasys.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA25732;
	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:09:43 -0500
Message-Id: <199903100109.UAA25732@vielle.datasys.net>
From: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:09:43 -0500
Reply-To: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey)
X-Pgp-Fingerprint: DB 6B 9E 9F B5 F2 9B 6D A0 BE D8 10 6B 22 8F 06
X-Accept-Language: sh
X-Tom-Swiftie: I like writing artificially intelligent programs, Tom lisped.
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 1995-03-03)
To: Brian Kantor <brian@karoshi.ucsd.edu>, chriseli@hh.bc.ca,
	sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: how do you know if you need a LAN switch?
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

: A chief security application is that a compromised workstation cannot
: learn much from snooping the network, as the only traffic that he'll see
: other than that intended for him is broadcasts and multicasts, which
: typically have less sensitive data in them than directed traffic does.
: 
: This is especially helpful when you have a typical University situation of
: a number of workstations in a lab.

Indeed: it's better than putting them all on a single segment, by far.

The O'Reilly book `Managing IP Networks With Cisco Routers' has a good
discussion of the places of routed and switched networks.

I must interject here that the security features of switched networks
are real, but limited. In a switched network, you retain the
misconfiguration problem: Any machine can claim any other machine's IP
address, and if the two machines are on the same subnet (in that they can
reach each other through layer 2), then that error causes real trouble.

If you have important machines, then be sure they're not on the same
subnet as client machines. An ethernet router built with a PC is good
for such an installation.

In short: switching is better, but routing is best.




---
Mark R. Lindsey, mark@datasys.net
Internet Engineering, DSS Online
Voice: 912.241.0607, Fax: 912.241.0190 (US)


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar  9 23:43:07 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA19584
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 23:43:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from schnitzel.bbn.com ([204.34.128.9])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA19575
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 23:43:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: from fulcrum (anton [138.180.5.96])
	by schnitzel.bbn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id HAA14128
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:41:28 -0100 (GMT)
Message-ID: <001a01be6ac9$16b739f0$6005b48a@fulcrum.ecrnoc.navy.mil>
From: "Anton Kaska" <akaska@bbn.com>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: NAVIEG
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:39:07 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

ALL,
After lurking for eternity now I find myself needing to ask a question
<gulp> involving NT on my network <previously only UNIX Hosts>...

We have just had Norton Antivirus for Internet Mail forced upon our NOC and
are having problems.  Does anyone out there have experience in tuning this
beast?  The "experts" sent with the solftware are at a loss. We figured out
the "NT" part relativly quick and our problem is not I/O, CPU etc.  It
appears that the software (even with 500+ connections open concurrently)
cannot keep up with our mail flow. (I wish the product was ported to UNIX
but alas it is not.)  Any (offline) assistance would be appreciated.



Anton Kaska
akaska@bbn.com






From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar 10 07:17:34 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA15001
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:17:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [129.188.136.102])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA14992
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:17:29 -0800 (PST)
Received: [from pobox2.mot.com (pobox2.mot.com [129.188.137.195]) by
	motgate2.mot.com (MOT-motgate2 1.0) with ESMTP id JAA18814 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:16:47 -0600 (CST)]
Received: [from m-az33-r2.mot.com (m-az33-r2.mot.com [129.188.127.12]) by
	pobox2.mot.com (MOT-pobox2 1.0) with ESMTP id JAA04722 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:13:53 -0600 (CST)]
Received: from plantation.comm.mot.com by m-az33-r2.mot.com with ESMTP for
	sage-members@usenix.ORG; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:15:14 -0700
Received: from plhp002.comm.mot.com ([145.2.148.3]) by plnt014.comm.mot.com
	with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version
	5.5.2232.9) id G3SY0GH2; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:15:18 -0500
Received: from plhp049.comm.mot.com (brownmic@plhp049b [145.2.149.44])
	by plhp002.comm.mot.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id
	KAA18990
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:15:10 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from brownmic@localhost) by plhp049.comm.mot.com (8.8.6
	(PHNE_17135)/8.7.3) id KAA03605 for sage-members@usenix.ORG;
	Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:15:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Rogero Brown <brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com>
Message-Id: <199903101515.KAA03605@plhp049.comm.mot.com>
Subject: Re: NAVIEG
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:15:09 EST
In-Reply-To: <001a01be6ac9$16b739f0$6005b48a@fulcrum.ecrnoc.navy.mil>;
	from "Anton Kaska" at Mar 10, 99 8:39 am
X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 212.4]
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

> 
> ALL,
> After lurking for eternity now I find myself needing to ask a question
> <gulp> involving NT on my network <previously only UNIX Hosts>...
> 
> We have just had Norton Antivirus for Internet Mail forced upon our NOC and
> are having problems.  Does anyone out there have experience in tuning this
> beast?  The "experts" sent with the solftware are at a loss. We figured out
> the "NT" part relativly quick and our problem is not I/O, CPU etc.  It
> appears that the software (even with 500+ connections open concurrently)
> cannot keep up with our mail flow. (I wish the product was ported to UNIX
> but alas it is not.)  Any (offline) assistance would be appreciated.
> 
> 

This is why some recommend NOT scanning for viruses at the mail server, but
at the desktop.  Scanning for viruses on the mail server will impact it.  Here,
we use NAV on our desktops with autoprotect enabled.  This way when mail is
received, it is scanned when it is opened.

--
Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.  
Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar 10 08:22:11 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA18949
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:22:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail.inu.net (downtown.inu.net [208.129.164.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA18940
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:22:07 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903101622.IAA18940@usenix.ORG>
Received: from nexttown [208.129.164.20] by mail.inu.net
	(SMTPD32-4.06) id AB2A39A50122; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:17:46 CST
X-Sender: bobmartin@downtown.inu.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:19:49 -0600
To: "Anton Kaska" <akaska@bbn.com>, <sage-members@usenix.org>
From: Bob Martin <BobMartin@inu.net>
Subject: Re: NAVIEG
In-Reply-To: <001a01be6ac9$16b739f0$6005b48a@fulcrum.ecrnoc.navy.mil>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

We have tried a number of anti-virus solutions with virtually every mail
server available for NT. Net result: The server can not keep up with more
than 200 users. 

The best results we had came from using I-Mail with F-Prot.

Bob

At 08:39 AM 3/10/99 +0100, you wrote:
>ALL,
>After lurking for eternity now I find myself needing to ask a question
><gulp> involving NT on my network <previously only UNIX Hosts>...
>
>We have just had Norton Antivirus for Internet Mail forced upon our NOC and
>are having problems.  Does anyone out there have experience in tuning this
>beast?  The "experts" sent with the solftware are at a loss. We figured out
>the "NT" part relativly quick and our problem is not I/O, CPU etc.  It
>appears that the software (even with 500+ connections open concurrently)
>cannot keep up with our mail flow. (I wish the product was ported to UNIX
>but alas it is not.)  Any (offline) assistance would be appreciated.
>
>
>
>Anton Kaska
>akaska@bbn.com
> 


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar 10 20:33:25 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA03001
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:33:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: from q7.q7.com (joey@q7.q7.com [206.58.126.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02992
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:33:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (joey@localhost)
	by q7.q7.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA17092
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:31:10 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:31:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Joe Pruett <joey@q7.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: how do you know if you need a LAN switch?
In-Reply-To: <199903100109.UAA25732@vielle.datasys.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9903102028160.16101-100000@q7.q7.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

another attack on switches is to flood the mac tables.  most switches can
handle 1-8k unique mac addresses.  if you have an evil computer it can
send out traffic from enough bogus addresses that the mac table will
overflow and the switch won't know where systems really are and it will
start broadcasting all traffic to all ports.  at least that is the
behaviour that switches used to have.



From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 11 14:22:47 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14334
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:22:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mahler.cs.colostate.edu (mahler.CS.ColoState.EDU
	[129.82.45.166]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14325
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:22:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from trzyna@localhost)
	by mahler.cs.colostate.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id PAA02918
	for sage-members@usenix.ORG; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:20:22 -0700 (MST)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:20:22 -0700 (MST)
From: wayne trzyna <trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU>
Message-Id: <199903112220.PAA02918@mahler.cs.colostate.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: how do you know if you need a LAN switch?
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

One important point that I don't think has been made is that
a switch can actually degrade performance if it is not configured
intelligently.  For example if a bunch of machines on a bunch of
10mb ports are all trying to talk to the same machine on a single
10mb port, this can lead to buffer over-runs. Then instead of
low-latency timeout/retransmition of ethernet collisions,
you'll suffer higher-latency TCP/IP timeouts/retransmissions.
And in the process of all this, you'll end up retransmitting
packets which were already successfully receieved.

To quote Bevis and Butthead, "Heh, heh, that sucks."

--

-Wayne Trzyna                             Systems Administrator
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU                  Computer Science Department
 http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~trzyna      Colorado State University
 (970) 491-1057                           Fort Collins, CO 80523


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 12 15:59:13 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA18484
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:59:13 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mhub1.tc.umn.edu (mhub1.tc.umn.edu [160.94.5.41])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA18475
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:59:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by mhub1.tc.umn.edu with ESMTP for
	sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:55:49 -0600
Received: by gold.tc.umn.edu for sage-members@usenix.org;
	Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:55:39 -0600
Message-Id: <iss.614c.36e9a97b.72777.1@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:55:39 -0600
From: Dave Bianchi <djb@tc.umn.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: TCSA meeting March 18
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

The Twin Cities System Administrators (TCSA) group meets monthly to
discuss topics of interest to system and network administrators in
the Twin Cities area of Minnesota.  The meetings are free and open to
the public.  Check out our web site at http://www.tcsa.org/

TCSA meetings are on the third Thursday of each month at 7:00 pm.

Next Meeting:

  Topic:	Samba
  Speakers:	Chris Hertel, University of Minnesota
  Date/Time:	March 18, 1999  7:00 pm
  Location:	University Park Plaza Office Building (MRNet)

Synopsis:

  Chris Hertel is a member of the Samba development team.  He'll
  give us an overview of Samba, what he's working on, and where
  Samba is going.

  The Samba team are selling T-Shirts.  The main goal is to raise even
  more awareness of Samba.  They're also trying to raise a little bit
  of money to send Andrew to conferences, etc.  The shirts are being
  printed in the Twin Cities and handled by Chris.

  If you buy the shirts via the web, they charge $16.00.  Chris is
  willing to waive shipping and handling fees to TCSA members and
  will charge only $12.00 a piece.
 
  If you are interested, check out the t-shirts at:

	http://us1.samba.org/samba/tshirt.html

  T-shirts are available in L, XL, and XXL.  If you are interested in
  buying these t-shirts at $12 each, send an e-mail to me at

	djb@tc.umn.edu
	
  Please indicate the number of t-shirts of each size that you want.
  Ordering deadline is Monday, March 15.  


We will meet at University Park Plaza Office Building (MRNet office),
2829 University Ave. SE, in a conference room on the first floor of
the building.


Tentative Meeting Schedule

  April 15, 1999
  May 20, 1999

Directions to University Park Plaza (MRNet):

The MRNet office is at University Park Plaza Office Building, 2829
University Ave. SE.  It is a white-concrete, 9-story, hexagonal
building (previously occupied by Group Health).  The windows are
distinctive, shaped somewhat like TV screens.  University Park Plaza
is on the north side of University Ave. (across from the Octopus Car
Wash), about 3 blocks east of the intersection of Washington Ave. and
University Ave. or about 3 blocks west of KSTP-TV. 

- From the South (35W)

Proceed north on 35W, exiting onto Interstate 94 East.  Continue in
the far left lane on Interstate 94 East to the Highway 280 exit.
Remain on Highway 280 until University Ave.  Turn left on University,
proceed 7 blocks west to SE 29th Ave.  The building is on your right. 

- From the North (35W)

Proceed south on 35W, exiting onto Highway 280 South.  Continue on
Highway 280 until the University Ave. exit.  Turn right on University.
Continue 7 blocks west to SE 29th Ave.  The building is on your right. 

- From the West (94/394)

Proceed east on 94, cross the Mississippi river and continue in the far
left lane on Interstate 94 East to the Highway 280 exit.  Remain on
Highway 280 until University Ave.  Turn left on University, proceed
7 blocks west to SE 29th Ave.  The building is on your right. 

- From the East (94)

Proceed west on 94, continue in the far right lane to the Highway 280
exit.  Remain on Highway 280 until University Ave.  Turn left onto
University, proceed 7 blocks to SE 29th St.  The building is on your
right. 

- Parking

Free parking is available in the visitor lot off SE 29th Ave. and in
front of the building along University Ave. 

- Web map is at: http://www.mr.net/about/location.html

For more information on TCSA, check out our web site:

  http://www.tcsa.org/

To subscribe to the TCSA mailing list (from a Unix system):

  echo "subscribe tcsa" | mailx majordomo@tcsa.org

For any other information, please send email to:

  info@tcsa.org

or contact:

  Dave Bianchi	651-644-7843

-- 
Dave Bianchi         Collective Technologies     Pager: 800-759-8888
djb@colltech.com        A Pencom Company               pin: 571-8458
djb@tc.umn.edu       http://www.colltech.com/


From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 15 14:26:57 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA07619
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:26:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail.inu.net (downtown.inu.net [208.129.164.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA07610
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:26:48 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903152226.OAA07610@usenix.ORG>
Received: from nexttown [208.129.164.20] by mail.inu.net
	(SMTPD32-4.06) id A81BB32E014A; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:22:19 CST
X-Sender: bobmartin@downtown.inu.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:24:30 -0600
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Bob Martin <BobMartin@inu.net>
Subject: Unix syllabus
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I am working with a group of young people who are interested in learning
Unix. Since I learned Unix the old fashioned way, I was wondering if anyone
had a syllabus for a Unix course that would serve as a decent road map. Any
suggestions along these lines would be greatly appreciated.

TIA
Bob


From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 15 15:38:37 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA11539
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:38:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: from peak.org (root@PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA11505
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:38:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (sechrest@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peak.org
	(8.8.5/8.6.7) with ESMTP id PAA27218;
	Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:36:02 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903152336.PAA27218@peak.org>
To: Bob Martin <BobMartin@inu.net>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Unix syllabus 
In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:24:30 CST.
	<199903152226.OAA07610@usenix.ORG> 
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:36:01 -0800
From: John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

	There are a series of books about unix that are pretty good.
	The nutshell series from O'Reilly works pretty well.
	
	But we ended up creating File901, our own small basic skills
	manual.
	
	It works ok for the basic user.
	
	But I bet there is a better unix for dummies (tm) book out there.
	
	

Bob Martin <BobMartin@inu.net> writes:

 % I am working with a group of young people who are interested in learning
 % Unix. Since I learned Unix the old fashioned way, I was wondering if anyone
 % had a syllabus for a Unix course that would serve as a decent road map. Any
 % suggestions along these lines would be greatly appreciated.
 % 
 % TIA
 % Bob

-----
John Sechrest          .         Helping people use
   PEAK -               .           computers and the Internet
Public Electronic         .            more effectively
Access to Knowledge,Inc       .                      
850 SW 15th Street              .            Internet: sechrest@peak.org
Corvallis Oregon 97331               .                  (541) 754-7325
                                            . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest


From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 15 16:44:46 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA14758
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:44:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from post5.inre.asu.edu (post5.inre.asu.edu [129.219.110.86])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA14741
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:44:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from general3.asu.edu by asu.edu (PMDF V5.1-12 #24133)
	with ESMTP id <01J8V8Z17BVM8X73ZY@asu.edu> for sage-members@usenix.ORG;
	Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:44:32 MST
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by general3.asu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA09820; Mon,
	15 Mar 1999 17:42:23 -0700 (MST)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:42:23 -0700 (MST)
From: LuftHans <LuftHans@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Unix syllabus
In-reply-to: <199903152226.OAA07610@usenix.ORG>
X-Sender: lufthans@general3.asu.edu
To: Bob Martin <BobMartin@inu.net>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Message-id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990315172803.8167B-100000@general3.asu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Bob Martin wrote:

> I am working with a group of young people who are interested in learning
> Unix. Since I learned Unix the old fashioned way, I was wondering if anyone
> had a syllabus for a Unix course that would serve as a decent road map. Any
> suggestions along these lines would be greatly appreciated.

I've been happy with >>Linux A-Z<< from Phil Cornes (Prentice Hall). It's gnu
oriented since it's Linux, so is a bit different than commercial unix
environs. I think he does a good job. I wish I'd had it when I learned *nix.
Unlike most Linux books, it isn't about how to install Linux, it's about how
to use it.

I've only made it through about 100 pages (I'm reading it to evaluate it), but
what I've seen so far has been nice. The book presumes you have a working
system and an account. Phil explains how to use commands AND how they work.

The end even goes over internals: device drivers, process scheduling, threads,
mem, file systems, sys calls (that's the part I can use :). 

I orignally borrowed a copy from someone at work, but have now gotten copies
for my library and for my brother and sister, both of whom are now needing to
learn Linux for work.

ciao,

der.hans

> TIA
> Bob

# +++++++++++=================================+++++++++++ #
#                   LuftHans@asu.edu                      #
#            http://home.pages.de/~lufthans/              #
#   I'm not anti-social, I'm pro-individual. - der.hans   #
# ===========+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=========== #



From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 15 17:40:02 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA17098
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:40:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: from tsdis02.nascom.nasa.gov ([198.118.235.98])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA17060
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:39:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (denis@localhost) by tsdis02.nascom.nasa.gov
	(8.9.0/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id UAA11182;
	Mon, 15 Mar 1999 20:37:40 -0500 (EST)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 20:37:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Gerasimov <denis@tsdis02.nascom.nasa.gov>
X-Sender: denis@tsdis02.nascom.nasa.gov
To: Bob Martin <BobMartin@inu.net>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Unix syllabus
In-Reply-To: <199903152226.OAA07610@usenix.ORG>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990315203652.9230A-100000@tsdis02.nascom.nasa.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Bob Martin wrote:
> I am working with a group of young people who are interested in learning
> Unix. Since I learned Unix the old fashioned way, I was wondering if anyone
> had a syllabus for a Unix course that would serve as a decent road map. Any
> suggestions along these lines would be greatly appreciated.

Bob, take a look at www.datawire.com/saclass for a sample of a commercial
Unix SA class.

Dennis Gerasimov                                 office  301-614-5070
Sr. Systems Administrator,                       denis@tsdis.gsfc.nasa.gov
TSDIS/TRMM                       personal e-mail denis@datawire.com
NASA/GSFC  Code 902                       http://www.datawire.com/~denis




From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 15 17:40:04 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA17100
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:40:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from vielle.datasys.net (mark@vielle.datasys.net [204.252.164.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA17059
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:39:52 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from mark@localhost)
	by vielle.datasys.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA04067;
	Mon, 15 Mar 1999 20:37:39 -0500
Message-Id: <199903160137.UAA04067@vielle.datasys.net>
From: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 20:37:38 -0500
Reply-To: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey)
X-Pgp-Fingerprint: DB 6B 9E 9F B5 F2 9B 6D A0 BE D8 10 6B 22 8F 06
X-Accept-Language: sh
X-Tom-Swiftie: I like writing artificially intelligent programs, Tom lisped.
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 1995-03-03)
To: John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org>, Bob Martin <BobMartin@inu.net>
Subject: Re: Unix syllabus
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

: 	But I bet there is a better unix for dummies (tm) book out there.

There is. I've a friend who says it's quite good.



From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 15 19:12:57 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA20956
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:12:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: from psasolar.colltech.com (psasolar.colltech.com [208.229.236.14])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA20947
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:12:50 -0800 (PST)
From: cordrey@colltech.com
Received: (from cordrey@localhost)
	by psasolar.colltech.com (VER/What/1.0) id VAA18451;
	Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:10:39 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199903160310.VAA18451@psasolar.colltech.com>
Subject: Re: Unix syllabus
In-Reply-To: <199903152226.OAA07610@usenix.ORG> from Bob Martin at "Mar 15,
	99 04:24:30 pm"
To: BobMartin@inu.net (Bob Martin)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:10:39 -0600 (CST)
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Bob Martin wrote:
> I am working with a group of young people who are interested in learning
> Unix. Since I learned Unix the old fashioned way, I was wondering if anyone
> had a syllabus for a Unix course that would serve as a decent road map. Any
> suggestions along these lines would be greatly appreciated.

While it's a bit difficult to find, it is one of the
seminal works and still very useful:

S.R. Bourne
The UNIX System
(Updated for System V)

It is excellent general discussions of all aspects of
UNIX from the shell to vi that I've ever worked with.
For example in about 9 pages, Bourne covers much of
what you need to know to make efficient use of vi.  It
also covers regular expressions for both the shell and
ex/sed/grep/vi/awk, including substring pattern
matching.  The text is tight and therefore the book is
not thick.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Vincent Cordrey                                  cordrey@acm.org
Collective Technologies                   (818) 490-6720 [pager]
The power of many minds    mailto:cordrey@computer.org [txt pgr]


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 05:39:24 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA14364
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 05:39:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from westnet.com (levins@westnet.com [206.24.6.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA14355
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 05:39:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (levins@localhost)
	by westnet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA24864
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:37:07 -0500 (EST)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:37:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: disk partitions question
In-Reply-To: <199903152226.OAA07610@usenix.ORG>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.4.10.9903160832150.23863-100000@westnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Ok, I've seen some great information pass through my system from this
list, so I figured I'd tap into the collective with my own brief query.

Our company is a Sun shop.  We're currently working on setting up new
systems, and we're trying to find a good filesystem layout standard.  I
noticed at sunworld.com that Adrian Cockcroft suggested one big partition
for /, /usr, /var, etc.  

Our production systems are housed at our ISP, and the folks there aren't
too keen on this idea because of possible filesystem fill-ups (/home,
/var), and greater likelihood of corruption.  

However, with proper monitoring, fillup shouldn't be an issue.  We're
going to be mirroring two 9GB disks for the system disk, and we're going
to use UFS logging, which should minimize the corruption in the event of
any disk or system problems, no?

I'm probably opening up a big can of worms, but I'll do it anyway: anyone
have any interesting opinions on one big slice vs. lots of little slices?

Oh, and naturally swap would be a separate slice, along with the logging
slice, but that's it.

Private mail or list followups as you deem appropriate.

Thanks much,
-Adam Levin
 Audible, Inc.





From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 05:58:05 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA14885
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 05:58:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rigel.dartmouth.edu (rigel.dartmouth.edu [129.170.18.204])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA14876
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 05:58:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rigel.dartmouth.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by
	rigel.dartmouth.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA295424;
	Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:55:51 -0500
Message-Id: <199903161355.IAA295424@rigel.dartmouth.edu>
To: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: disk partitions question 
In-reply-to: (Your message of Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:37:06 EST.)
	<Pine.SUN.4.10.9903160832150.23863-100000@westnet.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:55:51 -0500
From: Pat Wilson <paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Call me a traditionalist, but I still make separate partitions
for /, /usr, /var, and /tmp.  Easier for dump, more peace of mind
for me, and it just feels better all around.  Depending on what
you're doing and how much /var is getting hit, you might want it
on another disk for performance reasons, anyway...

Pat Wilson
paw@dartmouth.edu

Adam Levin writes:
>  Ok, I've seen some great information pass through my system from this
>  list, so I figured I'd tap into the collective with my own brief query.
>  
>  Our company is a Sun shop.  We're currently working on setting up new
>  systems, and we're trying to find a good filesystem layout standard.  I
>  noticed at sunworld.com that Adrian Cockcroft suggested one big partition
>  for /, /usr, /var, etc.  
>  
>  Our production systems are housed at our ISP, and the folks there aren't
>  too keen on this idea because of possible filesystem fill-ups (/home,
>  /var), and greater likelihood of corruption.  
>  
>  However, with proper monitoring, fillup shouldn't be an issue.  We're
>  going to be mirroring two 9GB disks for the system disk, and we're going
>  to use UFS logging, which should minimize the corruption in the event of
>  any disk or system problems, no?
>  
>  I'm probably opening up a big can of worms, but I'll do it anyway: anyone
>  have any interesting opinions on one big slice vs. lots of little slices?
>  
>  Oh, and naturally swap would be a separate slice, along with the logging
>  slice, but that's it.
>  
>  Private mail or list followups as you deem appropriate.
>  
>  Thanks much,
>  -Adam Levin
>   Audible, Inc.
>  
>  
>  


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 06:21:12 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA15752
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 06:21:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: from westnet.com (levins@westnet.com [206.24.6.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA15712
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 06:21:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (levins@localhost)
	by westnet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA28924;
	Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:18:52 -0500 (EST)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:18:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
To: Pat Wilson <paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: disk partitions question 
In-Reply-To: <199903161355.IAA295424@rigel.dartmouth.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.4.10.9903160916240.28611-100000@westnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Pat Wilson wrote:
> Call me a traditionalist, but I still make separate partitions
> for /, /usr, /var, and /tmp.  Easier for dump, more peace of mind
> for me, and it just feels better all around.  Depending on what
> you're doing and how much /var is getting hit, you might want it
> on another disk for performance reasons, anyway...

Thanks for the input, Pat.  I've always been a traditionalist, but I've
been searching dejanews and sunworld and it seems like one big slice is
gaining popularity.  This server won't be doing email or print spooling,
so logging is the only /var issue, and it wouldn't be on a separate disk
anyway because we're using the second disk to mirror the first for
redundancy.

I'm definitely leaning towards the one big slice format, but I've never
actually done it that way (except at home under linux).  Any Suns or SGI's
have always had multiple small slices, so I just want to make sure I'm not
going somewhere really bad.

-Adam




From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 07:32:14 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA17987
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:32:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from wainapanapa.sj.ptc.com ([12.7.244.21])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA17977
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:32:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from chef (chef.sj.ptc.com [132.253.4.24])
	by wainapanapa.sj.ptc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA06319;
	Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:29:12 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990316072745.00bbdd70@mail.sj.ptc.com>
X-Sender: lsnyder@mail.sj.ptc.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:27:45 -0800
To: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
From: "Lowell R. Snyder Jr." <lsnyder@sj.ptc.com>
Subject: Re: disk partitions question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.10.9903160832150.23863-100000@westnet.com>
References: <199903152226.OAA07610@usenix.ORG>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I've tried it both ways.  The only answer I can give is:  it depends.

It depends on _exactly_ what the systems is doing:  Mail server - go ahead
and load one big partition if you want, but make the mail spool a separate
partition so that a mail backup doesn't kill the system.  syslog server
would have a large /var on a separate partition.  Users  files server would
move /home to a separate partition...

Nothing is more annoying than needing to install a patch, and not being
able to without moving filesets all over the damn place...



At 08:37 AM 3/16/99 -0500, Adam and Christine Levin wrote:
>
>Ok, I've seen some great information pass through my system from this
>list, so I figured I'd tap into the collective with my own brief query.
>
>Our company is a Sun shop.  We're currently working on setting up new
>systems, and we're trying to find a good filesystem layout standard.  I
>noticed at sunworld.com that Adrian Cockcroft suggested one big partition
>for /, /usr, /var, etc.  
>
>Our production systems are housed at our ISP, and the folks there aren't
>too keen on this idea because of possible filesystem fill-ups (/home,
>/var), and greater likelihood of corruption.  
>
>However, with proper monitoring, fillup shouldn't be an issue.  We're
>going to be mirroring two 9GB disks for the system disk, and we're going
>to use UFS logging, which should minimize the corruption in the event of
>any disk or system problems, no?
>
>I'm probably opening up a big can of worms, but I'll do it anyway: anyone
>have any interesting opinions on one big slice vs. lots of little slices?
>
>Oh, and naturally swap would be a separate slice, along with the logging
>slice, but that's it.
>
>Private mail or list followups as you deem appropriate.
>
>Thanks much,
>-Adam Levin
> Audible, Inc.
>
>
>
>
---
Lowell R. Snyder Jr.
Sr. Systems Administrator
Parametric Technology Corp.
lsnyder@ptc.com
408-953-8643



From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 07:39:55 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA18349
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:39:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: from psasolar.colltech.com (psasolar.colltech.com [208.229.236.14])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA18340
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:39:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: from psasolar (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by psasolar.colltech.com (VER/What/1.0) with ESMTP id JAA28471;
	Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:37:35 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199903161537.JAA28471@psasolar.colltech.com>
To: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: disk partitions question 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:37:06 EST."
	<Pine.SUN.4.10.9903160832150.23863-100000@westnet.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:37:35 -0600
From: Stephen Potter <spp@psasolar.colltech.com>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet
.com> whispered:
| systems, and we're trying to find a good filesystem layout standard.  I
| noticed at sunworld.com that Adrian Cockcroft suggested one big partition
| for /, /usr, /var, etc.  

For performance, if you are only using a single disk, you're better off
with a single large slice.  I'd even go so far as to say that you'd be
better with a swap file than a swap partition, but I haven't tried setting
up a system to test that yet.

If you aren't overly concerned about performance, then set up multiple
partitions.  You can control usage better that way, a run away process
won't trash your whole system, and corruption is contained.

If you can do it, I recommend going with several smaller disks instead of
one mammoth disk.  That way you can spread /usr, /var, and swap out over
the disks for best performance.

-spp


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 07:55:54 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA19152
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:55:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: from claymoor.onyx.net (claymoor.onyx.net [194.176.71.33])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA19112
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:55:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from arm10@localhost)
	by claymoor.onyx.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01817;
	Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:52:47 GMT
Message-ID: <XFMail.990316155246.Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <199903161355.IAA295424@rigel.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:52:46 -0000 (GMT)
Organization: Onyx Internet
From: Adam Morris <Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
To: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
Subject: Re: disk partitions question
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


On 15-Mar-99 Pat Wilson wrote:
> 
> Call me a traditionalist, but I still make separate partitions
> for /, /usr, /var, and /tmp.  Easier for dump, more peace of mind
> for me, and it just feels better all around.  Depending on what
> you're doing and how much /var is getting hit, you might want it
> on another disk for performance reasons, anyway...
> 

Personally, I would partition it depending on how I thought the machine would
be used.  I've seen machines partitioned in all sorts of different ways.  (One
partion plus swap space always gets me... but I've seen it done)

For example, I would make /home a seperate partition on machines that would
be used a lot, but not on machines that are going to basically be servers with
no user accounts.  

Certainly I would make /, /usr, /var and /tmp seperate.  Possibly also
/var/spool, /home, and /var/log depending on just what the machine is likely to
be used for.  

By all means monitor file systems for fill-up, but equally, try and make sure
that the service the machine provides is not going to suffer because a
particular partition has filled up and not been emptied yet.

Yours,
        Adam Morris.

- ----------------------------------
If this message isn't signed, it probably isn't me.
Adam Morris - Systems Engineer - Onyx Internet

"Life may have no meaning -- or even worse, it may have a meaning of
which I disapprove."

- ----------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNu5+TjxztoTO1QFNAQFRAQP/cl1YG+WPLPQK7wE+idedt602oH3Om2AA
MZKfAgbdTSPdfAoCxr4QHBM47dI0EPUzA4PQBfGYWvDX3dhvJCioarpTD/pifz5L
dHSWb4lu01i/iYOIo0qnjmFhp05kQiYBfwqHgHRhzLfc/tvwNYmKrE07jSfSzQhs
vohLctSmAgA=
=zpUC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 08:08:14 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA19787
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:08:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from alice.austin.apc.slb.com (alice.austin.apc.slb.com
	[163.185.74.7]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA19743
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:08:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: from austin.apc.slb.com (ice2-apc.austin.apc.slb.com
	[163.185.68.109])
	by alice.austin.apc.slb.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA09618;
	Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:04:46 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <36EE811D.CEA8AD90@austin.apc.slb.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:04:45 -0600
From: Francois Leclerc <leclerc@austin.apc.slb.com>
Organization: Schlumberger APC
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
CC: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: disk partitions question
References: <Pine.SUN.4.10.9903160832150.23863-100000@westnet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Adam,
Here are few ideas :

. I have been burnt so many times by partitions cut to small on desktop
with ever increasing software configuration for developers 
: I tend to KISS (keep it simple) with 1 partition

. For key Server, I buy more disk space, 
split the partitions / /var /opt /usr + data partitions
mount /usr read-only
Apart from isolating /var growth, it has the following effects :
	- make it more detectable if binaries in /usr are trojaned
	- make more difficult some attacks based on hard links with
	 /etc/shadow ...

for the threats, refer to BugTraq Archive or www.rootshell.com 
for the idea of /usr read-only, check "Practical Unix and Internet
Security"

--francois

Adam and Christine Levin wrote:
> 
> Ok, I've seen some great information pass through my system from this
> list, so I figured I'd tap into the collective with my own brief query.
> 
...
> Oh, and naturally swap would be a separate slice, along with the logging
> slice, but that's it.
> 
> Private mail or list followups as you deem appropriate.
> 
> Thanks much,
> -Adam Levin
>  Audible, Inc.

-- 
Francois Leclerc		SCHLUMBERGER Austin Product Center
Associate Research Scientist	 8311 North F.M 620 Road
Fax: 1 512 331-3760	 	Austin, Texas 78726 USA
Tel: 1 512 331-3133  fleclerc@slb.com or leclerc@austin.apc.slb.com 
-------------------------------------------------------------------

"Safety engineering involves making sure things do not fail in the
presence of random faults.
Security engineering involves making sure things do not fail in the
presence of an intelligent and malicious adversary who forces faults at 
precisely the wrong time and in precisely the wrong way."
Bruce Schneier, RSA conference 1999


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 08:18:14 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA20204
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:18:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from igtc.igtc.com (pmm@igtc.igtc.com [206.86.144.10])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA20195
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:18:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from pmm@localhost) by igtc.igtc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA12221;
	Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:15:55 -0800
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:15:55 -0800
From: "Paul M. Moriarty" <pmm@igtc.com>
To: Pat Wilson <paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
Cc: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: disk partitions question
Message-ID: <19990316081554.B16473@igtc.igtc.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.4.10.9903160832150.23863-100000@westnet.com>
	<199903161355.IAA295424@rigel.dartmouth.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i
In-Reply-To: <199903161355.IAA295424@rigel.dartmouth.edu>;
	from Pat Wilson on Tue, Mar 16, 1999 at 08:55:51AM +2230
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I am also a traditionalist.  The basis for my preference has been that if
something goes wrong and fills up /usr or /var, there's a good chance my
system stays running, albeit at some diminished capacity.  If that same 
something goes wrong on a disk made of one big slice, chances are that the
failures experienced by the machine are more catastrophic, as Adam notes in
his original message.

As a benefit, if you are a total purist and only put your "std config" in 
/ /usr and /var and put everything else on separate filesystems, then you 
only have to back up the std config every time it changes (which should be 
infrequently).

-> Paul <-


Pat Wilson writes:
> 
> Call me a traditionalist, but I still make separate partitions
> for /, /usr, /var, and /tmp.  Easier for dump, more peace of mind
> for me, and it just feels better all around.  Depending on what
> you're doing and how much /var is getting hit, you might want it
> on another disk for performance reasons, anyway...
> 
> Pat Wilson
> paw@dartmouth.edu
> 
> Adam Levin writes:
> >  Ok, I've seen some great information pass through my system from this
> >  list, so I figured I'd tap into the collective with my own brief query.
> >  
> >  Our company is a Sun shop.  We're currently working on setting up new
> >  systems, and we're trying to find a good filesystem layout standard.  I
> >  noticed at sunworld.com that Adrian Cockcroft suggested one big partition
> >  for /, /usr, /var, etc.  
> >  
> >  Our production systems are housed at our ISP, and the folks there aren't
> >  too keen on this idea because of possible filesystem fill-ups (/home,
> >  /var), and greater likelihood of corruption.  
> >  
> >  However, with proper monitoring, fillup shouldn't be an issue.  We're
> >  going to be mirroring two 9GB disks for the system disk, and we're going
> >  to use UFS logging, which should minimize the corruption in the event of
> >  any disk or system problems, no?
> >  
> >  I'm probably opening up a big can of worms, but I'll do it anyway: anyone
> >  have any interesting opinions on one big slice vs. lots of little slices?
> >  
> >  Oh, and naturally swap would be a separate slice, along with the logging
> >  slice, but that's it.
> >  
> >  Private mail or list followups as you deem appropriate.
> >  
> >  Thanks much,
> >  -Adam Levin
> >   Audible, Inc.
> >  
> >  
> >  


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 08:19:34 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA20361
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:19:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from vidar.mbt.washington.edu (vidar.mbt.washington.edu
	[128.95.231.94]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA20352
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:19:30 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from hal@localhost)
	by vidar.mbt.washington.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA14783;
	Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:16:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Hal Miller <hal@vidar.mbt.washington.edu>
Message-Id: <199903161616.IAA14783@vidar.mbt.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: disk partitions question
To: levins@westnet.com (Adam and Christine Levin)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:16:54 -0800 (GMT)
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.10.9903160916240.28611-100000@westnet.com> from "Adam
	and Christine Levin" at Mar 16, 99 09:18:51 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Adam and Christine Levin writes:
> On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Pat Wilson wrote:
> > Call me a traditionalist, but I still make separate partitions
> > for /, /usr, /var, and /tmp.  Easier for dump, more peace of mind
> > for me, and it just feels better all around.  Depending on what
> > you're doing and how much /var is getting hit, you might want it
> > on another disk for performance reasons, anyway...
> 
> Thanks for the input, Pat.  I've always been a traditionalist, but I've
> been searching dejanews and sunworld and it seems like one big slice is
> gaining popularity.  This server won't be doing email or print spooling,
> so logging is the only /var issue, and it wouldn't be on a separate disk
> anyway because we're using the second disk to mirror the first for
> redundancy.
> 
> I'm definitely leaning towards the one big slice format, but I've never
> actually done it that way (except at home under linux).  Any Suns or SGI's
> have always had multiple small slices, so I just want to make sure I'm not
> going somewhere really bad.

Count me in as another traditionalist.  While I understand the idea of
conserving "wasted" space by putting them together, I always like having
the ability to easily expand by changing out a filesystem (yes I know
you can do it other ways), and particularly to rebuild a machine with a
new OS version with minimal impact.  Backups, as mentioned, are also
easier with the smaller, split partitions.

Gives you more room to play with tuning, if disk usage patterns are a
relevant problem.  Besides, the wasted space argument just isn't as
relevant any more: you can save a few megs, but nowadays we think in
terms of gigs at least (and at my site, hundreds of terabytes....)
-- 
HM


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 08:29:53 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA20747
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:29:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from karoshi.ucsd.edu (karoshi.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.136])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA20738
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:29:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from brian@localhost) by karoshi.ucsd.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id IAA16140
	for sage-members@usenix.ORG; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:27:41 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:27:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Kantor <brian@karoshi.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <199903161627.IAA16140@karoshi.ucsd.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: disk partitions question
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Environment: we're an in-house ISP with about 50,000 customers.  We have
about 35 dedicated servers to provide network resources such as mail,
news, nameservice, etc.  They all run BSD/OS.

I prefer to keep /, /usr, and /var separate.

/usr is identical across my entire farm of systems, so I don't have
to waste backups on it for each system.  We should probably mount it
read-only but don't yet.

/ has the per-machine config data in it, which rarely changes and
only under the supervision of the system manager (we use Kerberos,
so the password file doesn't change except when edited to add a user,
which is not often).  I keep copies of root on a central maintenance
machine, which is itself backed up, so I don't have a bezillion little
root backups to keep track of.

/var contains the data which changes as the system runs.  Subdirectories
of it are usually mounted for applications which massage a lot of data;
for example, on a mail relay, /var/spool/mqueue will be on a separate
spindle to give enough space for multimedia mail*, or /var/news for
Usenet.

/home is usually remote mounted from a central home directory server,
with its own backups.
	- Brian

[*] and how many copies of the Star Wars trailer went through your mail
relay in the last weeks?


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 08:30:38 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA20815
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:30:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: from sekrit.office.oceanwave.com (laslo.ne.mediaone.net
	[24.128.67.33]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA20755
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:30:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from arr@localhost)
	by sekrit.office.oceanwave.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA15961;
	Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:27:28 -0500 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: sekrit.office.oceanwave.com: arr set sender to
	arr@sekrit.office.oceanwave.com using -f
Message-ID: <14062.34415.57321.384360@sekrit.office.oceanwave.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:27:27 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: <arr@oceanwave.com> (A. Rich)
To: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: disk partitions question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.10.9903160832150.23863-100000@westnet.com>
References: <199903152226.OAA07610@usenix.ORG>
	<Pine.SUN.4.10.9903160832150.23863-100000@westnet.com>
X-Mailer: VM 6.63 under Emacs 20.3.1
X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5B F5 08 B3 6B 11 72 BD  19 29 1B 98 D2 94 77 D8
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

levins> Our company is a Sun shop.  We're currently working on setting up new
levins> systems, and we're trying to find a good filesystem layout standard.
levins> I noticed at sunworld.com that Adrian Cockcroft suggested one big
levins> partition for /, /usr, /var, etc.

I'm partial to separate filesystems for:

/

/opt

/usr

I wouldn't see a problem with making /, /usr, /opt all one big chunk as long
as you plan to keep those fairly static.  If you're planning on putting lots
of stuff in /usr, though, then I'd make it a separate filesystem.  Same idea
with /opt.

/var - really should be it's own filesystem since thats where we keep very
dynamic logs, patch backouts, mail files, etc.  Actually on some heavily used
systems, I break it down to having /var/mail and /var/log into their own
filesystems, too (I don't generally log all that much into the /var/adm
directory).

/tmp (as a tmpfs which is also /usr/tmp and /var/tmp)

And one more big slice that has symlinks from home directories and /usr/local
and friends.  I've also stuck opt here on occasion, too.



levins> However, with proper monitoring, fillup shouldn't be an issue.

That depends on how much free space you have to play with and how you limit
what can be written to disk (and how often you monitor).  Ie, do you allow
100M mail messages?  Will that fill up your disk or bring it close?  How often
do you poll disk usage?  A lot can happen to a machine in 15/30/60 minutes if
you're under attack or you have a particularly brain dead user/program.


-- 
Amy Rich <arr@oceanwave.com>                    Oceanwave Consulting, Inc.
UNIX Systems Administration Consultant          12 Hines Way
http://www.oceanwave.com/                       Marblehead, MA  01945
Phone: 781-631-6160                             Fax: 781-631-6160


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 08:34:57 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA20975
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:34:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail.sonytel.be (mail.sonytel.be [193.74.243.200])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA20966
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:34:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: from clover.sonytel.be (clover.sonytel.be [193.74.243.198])
	by mail.sonytel.be (8.9.0/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA24435;
	Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:31:33 +0100 (MET)
From: Wim Peeters <wim@sonycom.com>
Received: (from wim@localhost) by clover.sonytel.be (8.9.0/8.8.6) id RAA08388;
	Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:31:32 +0100 (MET)
Message-Id: <199903161631.RAA08388@clover.sonytel.be>
Subject: Re: disk partitioning question
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:31:32 +0100 (MET)
Cc: paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Hello,

We used to go for the seperate partitions, but +/- 2 year ago
we decided to move to the 1 slice approach (of course swap stays..)

The dump argument does not work for us, 'cause we don't take backup of these
machines. (unattended reinstall from scratch over the LAN if a system disk gets completely
destroyed, you can even use this to boot such a system,... )
(development is done in clearcase, so views are on the local machines, but
 VOBs are on big servers.. (<= sorry for the CC jargon), we don't care about
 view back up)

All user's files are on servers with RAID systems, so...

It turns out , at least for us, that this is much easier to maintain,
/* more peace of mind for me ;-) */
Before this, the most frequent problem with disks was "Partition full"

The performance,... maybe...

But, I agree, it depends on what you're doing with the machine, on
the mailserver a seperate partition/disk for the mailboxes and a sperate
logging partition might be a good idea.

my 5 cents..

Wim


> > Call me a traditionalist, but I still make separate partitions
> > for /, /usr, /var, and /tmp.  Easier for dump, more peace of mind
> > for me, and it just feels better all around.  Depending on what
> > you're doing and how much /var is getting hit, you might want it
> > on another disk for performance reasons, anyway...
> 
> Thanks for the input, Pat.  I've always been a traditionalist, but I've
> been searching dejanews and sunworld and it seems like one big slice is
> gaining popularity.  This server won't be doing email or print spooling,
> so logging is the only /var issue, and it wouldn't be on a separate disk
> anyway because we're using the second disk to mirror the first for
> redundancy.
> 
> I'm definitely leaning towards the one big slice format, but I've never
> actually done it that way (except at home under linux).  Any Suns or SGI's
> have always had multiple small slices, so I just want to make sure I'm not
> going somewhere really bad.

-Adam

-- 
Wim Peeters     

System Manager
SONY  Platform Software Development Center Brussels (PSDC-B)
SONY  Digital Network Solutions Europe Brussels     (DNSE-B)
Sint Stevens Woluwestraat 55 (Rue de Woluwe-Saint-Etienne)
1130 Brussel (Bruxelles), Belgium
Telephone: +32 2 724 86 42 Telefax: +32 2 726 26 86
e-mail: Wim.Peeters@sonycom.com


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 09:25:55 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23222
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:25:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: from zamboni.cs.wisc.edu (zamboni.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.162.15])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23133
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:25:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: from cs.wisc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by zamboni.cs.wisc.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA07864;
	Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:23:31 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199903161723.LAA07864@zamboni.cs.wisc.edu>
To: "Lowell R. Snyder Jr." <lsnyder@sj.ptc.com>
cc: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: disk partitions question 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:27:45 PST."
	<3.0.5.32.19990316072745.00bbdd70@mail.sj.ptc.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:23:30 -0600
From: David Parter <dparter@cs.wisc.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

> I've tried it both ways.  The only answer I can give is:  it depends.

so true.

> It depends on _exactly_ what the systems is doing:  Mail server - go ahead
> and load one big partition if you want, but make the mail spool a separate
> partition so that a mail backup doesn't kill the system.  syslog server
> would have a large /var on a separate partition.  Users  files server would
> move /home to a separate partition...

I also make the mail spool an *external* disk, so that I can easily 
move it to a different server if the mail server is having problems.

I like the idea of multiple partitions, because I can "reserve" space
for certain things: For example, with a /var/tmp partition I know that
/var/tmp won't fill and prevent logs (in /var/adm) from being
updated. Likewise, excessive logging won't fill /tmp, preventing many
tools (like vi) from working. 

In order to do that you need to have a good idea of how much space is
needed for each function.

We also segregate the areas that users can change, so that for a
workstation upgrade or swap we know that we only have to preserve
/var/spool and /var/home -- everything else is logs or "part of the OS".

Its a matter of taste and what fits the way you (and in this case also
your ISP) organize your work.

     --david


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 09:44:15 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23974
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:44:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from relaywest.pinkertons.com ([208.242.193.3])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23965
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:44:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: from usazexg001.whq.pinkertons.com ([192.168.0.11]) by
	relaywest.pinkertons.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.977.9);
	Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:38:45 -0800
Received: by usazexg001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3)
	id <G0YV6KYD>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:33:58 -0800
Message-ID: <B0F03DD29DA0D211ACCD00805FA7A0DB2A3C34@usazexg001>
From: "Matthew Sparks (05-025)" <Matthew_Sparks@usa.Pinkertons.com>
To: "'Adam and Christine Levin'" <levins@westnet.com>, Pat Wilson
	<paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: disk partitions question 
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:33:57 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3)
Content-Type: text/plain
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

When teaching UNIX installation, I always use 1 slice, just to make the
installation quick and easy. But we still teach how to slice the disk
and
how to determine slice sizes. I suggest when doing it for real to make
separate slices for / at least.

The question is always asked, why bother?  The only reason I've ever 
come up with is (besides using separate disks for performance)  on UNIX,
at least our flavor of Motorola SysV,  logging in requires room on the
disk.
If your users or another problem has filled /usr or the home area to
100%,
you can't log in. if root shares that space with all the other users,
root also
cannot login. So I keep the users away from / at least. It just makes
sense 
to me to keep root  and / away from everything else.

Matt Sparks


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Adam and Christine Levin [SMTP:levins@westnet.com]
> Sent:	Tuesday, March 16, 1999 6:19 AM
> To:	Pat Wilson
> Cc:	sage-members@usenix.org
> Subject:	Re: disk partitions question 
> 
> On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Pat Wilson wrote:
> > Call me a traditionalist, but I still make separate partitions
> > for /, /usr, /var, and /tmp.  Easier for dump, more peace of mind
> > for me, and it just feels better all around.  Depending on what
> > you're doing and how much /var is getting hit, you might want it
> > on another disk for performance reasons, anyway...
> 
> Thanks for the input, Pat.  I've always been a traditionalist, but
> I've
> been searching dejanews and sunworld and it seems like one big slice
> is
> gaining popularity.  This server won't be doing email or print
> spooling,
> so logging is the only /var issue, and it wouldn't be on a separate
> disk
> anyway because we're using the second disk to mirror the first for
> redundancy.
> 
> I'm definitely leaning towards the one big slice format, but I've
> never
> actually done it that way (except at home under linux).  Any Suns or
> SGI's
> have always had multiple small slices, so I just want to make sure I'm
> not
> going somewhere really bad.
> 
> -Adam
> 


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 10:37:58 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA26122
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:37:58 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from toni@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA24677
	for sage-members; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:18:31 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:18:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Toni Veglia <toni>
Message-Id: <199903110118.RAA24677@usenix.ORG>
To: sage-members
Subject: subscribing to sage-members
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


We have made a change in the requirement for joining this
sage-members mailing list.  Going forward, only current SAGE 
members will be allowed to subscribe.

If you already belong to the list but are not a SAGE member, you
will remain on the list.  If there comes a time when you need to
update your email address, your membership status will then be
checked before we make the change.

You can join or renew your SAGE membership at our website,
http://www.usenix.org/membership/application.html.  If you have
any questions about your membership, please contact us at
office@usenix.org.


-The USENIX Association Staff


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 11:08:48 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27464
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:08:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA27453
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:08:43 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from david@localhost) by vortex.more.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id NAA13531
	for sage-members@usenix.ORG; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:06:34 -0600 (CST)
From: David Drum <david@more.net>
Message-Id: <199903161906.NAA13531@vortex.more.net>
Subject: Re: disk partitions question
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:06:34 -0600 (CST)
In-Reply-To: <199903161627.IAA16140@karoshi.ucsd.edu> from "Brian Kantor" at
	Mar 16, 99 08:27:41 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

For the record, our mail disk usage went up 100% between Thanksgiving
and Christmas, on account of all the animated cards being sent out.
Talk about a virus...

Quoth Brian Kantor:

> [*] and how many copies of the Star Wars trailer went through your mail
> relay in the last weeks?

Regards,

David K. Drum
david@more.net
-- 
It's hard to be bored when you're as stupid as a line. [1]
Reality has a tendency to be so uncomfortably real. [2]
When you proceed deliberately, mistakes don't cascade, they instruct. [3]
What you notice becomes your life. [4]
[1] Vernor Vinge [2] Neil Peart [3] Stewart Brand [4] Michael Chitwood


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 11:08:29 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27444
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:08:29 -0800 (PST)
Received: from burlma1-smrt1.gtei.net (burlma1-smrt1.gtei.net [4.2.35.10])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA27435
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:08:18 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bbnplanet.com (syntax.sys.gtei.net [4.2.32.43])
	by burlma1-smrt1.gtei.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA12747
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:06:10 GMT
Message-ID: <36EEAB9B.912A234E@bbnplanet.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:06:03 -0500
From: John Orthoefer <jco@bbnplanet.com>
Organization: BBN Planet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: disk partitions question
References: <B0F03DD29DA0D211ACCD00805FA7A0DB2A3C34@usazexg001>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Matthew Sparks (05-025) wrote:
> 
> When teaching UNIX installation, I always use 1 slice, just to make the
> installation quick and easy. But we still teach how to slice the disk
> and
> how to determine slice sizes. I suggest when doing it for real to make
> separate slices for / at least.
> 
> The question is always asked, why bother?  The only reason I've ever
> come up with is (besides using separate disks for performance)  on UNIX,
> at least our flavor of Motorola SysV,  logging in requires room on the
> disk.

The reason you do it is for firewalling (systemwise not Networkwise.) 
You make /var seperate from / so your logs don't suck up all your disk
space.  You make / relativly small because everything there is basicly
static and on Solaris you can't make it a UFS+ file system.

johno


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 11:31:10 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28406
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:31:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hac2arpa.hac.com (hac2arpa.HAC.COM [192.27.0.10])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA28349
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:31:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: from seasnake.hac.com ([147.19.100.40]) by hac2arpa.hac.com
	(4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04075; Tue, 16 Mar 99 11:26:54 PST
Received: from seasnake (seasnake [147.19.100.40])
	by seasnake.hac.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA04665
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:28:20 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903161928.LAA04665@seasnake.hac.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:28:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Mario Obejas BSYS <obejas@phylum.hac.com>
Reply-To: Mario Obejas BSYS <obejas@phylum.hac.com>
Subject: Re: disk partitions question
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Md5: Pka2p9O9Dd7NDK6ZTRbltA==
X-Mailer: dtmail 1.2.0 CDE Version 1.2 SunOS 5.6 sun4m sparc 
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Our local sysadmin group chose to standardize as follows on our primarily SunOS 
5.5.1/5.6 machines, with the occassional HP-UX 10 box. Our environment is an 
engineering computing (Mentor, Pro/Engineer, Cadence, Xilinx, EEsof) 
environment, including software development and chip design groups.

/	: fairly static, also contains /usr and /opt
/var	: growable file system, isolates runaway process disk space growth
swap	: disk based, not file based, for performance reasons.
/export/home : If there is any room left over and we wish to export the 
contents, we create another partition at /export/home

Pro/E and Mentor tend to demand lots of memory and swap space. Typically, we'll 
use 
1GB for swap
700MB for /
250MB for /var
Whatever's leftover for /export/home

We'll put /export/home in our automounter tables and back it up. We will 
typically *not* back up / and /var, unless there is a unique installation on 
them not duplicated on any other machine (Mentor print filtering comes to mind).

We combine / with /usr and /opt because we want to have added flexibility to add 
local software without dump/restore/repartition headaches. As much as possible, 
we put software into /home/swname_version, using automounter variables for OS 
sensitivity.

We also are experimenting with minfree set to 1% on all partitions.

We also have some older machines with only 1GB of disk space. We typically will 
scale back the above numbers accordingly.

By the way, at our company, "disk is cheap - but hard to acquire".



From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 13:08:27 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02798
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:08:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02786
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:07:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from uucp2.uu.net by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP 
	(peer crosschecked as: uucp2.uu.net [192.48.96.82]) id QQggvk16803;
	Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:05:26 -0500 (EST)
Received: from corder.UUCP by uucp2.uu.net with UUCP/RMAIL
	; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:05:26 -0500
Received: by corder (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id QAA08848; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:01:46 -0500
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:01:46 -0500
From: jimcor@corder.com (James D. Corder)
Message-Id: <199903162101.QAA08848@corder>
To: BobMartin@inu.net
Subject: Unix syllabus
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



> I am working with a group of young people who are interested in learning
> Unix. Since I learned Unix the old fashioned way, I was wondering if anyone
> had a syllabus for a Unix course that would serve as a decent road map. Any
> suggestions along these lines would be greatly appreciated.

Hello:

http://post369.columbus.oh.us

http://post369.columbsu.oh.us/post.d/program.d/unix.d/369.unix.toc.01.html

The above is the web site for Boy Scouts of America
Simon Kenton Council, Venturing Crew 369 UNIX System
Administration Youth Mentor Program and their Table
of Contents for their UNIX for Programmers class.

I hope that this helped.

Thank you,
James D. Corder
Advisor 369
jimcor@corder.com


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 18:31:03 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA17084
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:31:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from vielle.datasys.net (mark@vielle.datasys.net [204.252.164.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA17029
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:30:52 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from mark@localhost)
	by vielle.datasys.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA10457;
	Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:28:23 -0500
Message-Id: <199903170228.VAA10457@vielle.datasys.net>
From: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:28:22 -0500
Reply-To: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey)
X-Pgp-Fingerprint: DB 6B 9E 9F B5 F2 9B 6D A0 BE D8 10 6B 22 8F 06
X-Accept-Language: sh
X-Tom-Swiftie: I like writing artificially intelligent programs, Tom lisped.
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 1995-03-03)
To: cordrey@colltech.com, BobMartin@inu.net (Bob Martin)
Subject: Thin Books (was: Unix syllabus)
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

: S.R. Bourne
: The UNIX System
: (Updated for System V)
: 
: [...]
: The text is tight and therefore the book is
: not thick.

This is an interesting comment, and mirrors some of my own thinking
in a specific case.

It seems that many of the great books in this field are thin. Take, for
examples, Lamport's book on LaTeX, and K&R C. Of course, there are
plenty of great books that are thicker -- Knuth's volumes of the Art of
Computer Programming, or W. Richard Stevens' TCP/IP Illustrated -- but I
can think of none immediately (from my personal encounters) that are
monstrously thick.

Contrast that to the 12-pound softback doorstops that sell as books on
topics related to more `recent' systems that you'll find in a pop-book
store.

I guess I'm just starting to appreciate why ORA's Nutshell series is 
so great. I hope they don't lose the love of concision; then again,
maybe concision is just part of writing great technical books.




---
Mark R. Lindsey, mark@datasys.net
Internet Engineering, DSS Online
Voice: 912.241.0607, Fax: 912.241.0190 (US)


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 16 18:58:11 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA18067
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:58:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from zamboni.cs.wisc.edu (zamboni.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.162.15])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA18058
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:58:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from cs.wisc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by zamboni.cs.wisc.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA11401
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:55:59 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199903170255.UAA11401@zamboni.cs.wisc.edu>
Reply-to: lisa99chair@usenix.org
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: LISA '99 Workshops: Call For Proposals
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:55:57 -0600
From: David Parter <dparter@cs.wisc.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


For the past several years, the LISA conference has included a
limited-attendance "Advanced Topics Workshop". For LISA '98, a second
workshop was added, on "Global LISA" issues.

Up to three limited-attendance, special-topic workshops will be offered
alongside the tutorial program at LISA '99. If you are interested in
organizing a LISA '99 workshop, please submit a workshop proposal.

The proposal should address the following questions/issues:

    1) workshop organizers
    2) topic/goals
    3) format
    4) projected attendance (we have one room, with a capacity of up to
       60 people in a "classroom" configuration, a smaller number in a 
       "roundtable" configuration)
    5) target audience
    6) how you will recruit participants
    7) special needs, if any
    8) anything else we should know

Please submit proposals via email to lisa99chair@usenix.org no later
than May 1, 1999.

For more information on LISA '99, please see
    http://www.usenix.org/events/lisa99/

If you have any comments, questions or suggesstions about LISA '99,
please feel free to send them to me.

       --david

David Parter
LISA '99 chair
lisa99chair@usenix.org


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar 17 06:12:52 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA13165
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 06:12:52 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gateway-le0.Cyanamid.COM (gateway-le0.Cyanamid.COM
	[198.138.106.253]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA13156
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 06:12:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: from igate.cyanamid.com by gateway-le0.Cyanamid.COM
	via smtpd (for usenix.usenix.org [131.106.3.1]) with SMTP;
	17 Mar 1999 14:10:09 UT
Received: from pt.cyanamid.com ([141.173.60.184] (may be forged))
	by igate.cyanamid.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA13750
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:10:08 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <36EFB8A0.488AD4AF@pt.cyanamid.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:13:52 -0500
From: John Geletej <geletejj@pt.Cyanamid.COM>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: SAGE Members <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Solaris 7 (SunOS 5.7) SCSI timeout bug-a-boo
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Okay SAGE ones, got a good one here:

(A) User has machine (Sparc 20) that was recently upgraded to Solaris 7. 
(B) Claims that his backups to attached tape device (Exabyte 8500)
worked flawlessly prior to upgrade -- now they're crapping out after
writing about fifty or so feet into the tape (I'm not sure if the length
has significance).
(C) I noticed that his /kernel/drv/st.conf file did not "account" for
the Exabyte drive -- so I modified the file to do so.
(D) Now I see the same SCSI time-outs I used to see on a similar machine
that runs Solaris 2.5.1 (until I applied a patch and got some help from
the vendor of our tape jukebox).

Anybody out there know of a relevant Solaris 7 patch or workaround? I've
been to Sunsolve, but there's nothing there.

Help?!?

TIA

-john geletej-

P.S. Respond personally and if requested I'll post summary of the
responses.


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar 17 08:19:59 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA17517
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:19:59 -0800 (PST)
Received: from westnet.com (levins@westnet.com [206.24.6.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA17508
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:19:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (levins@localhost)
	by westnet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA02274
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:17:38 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:17:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Disk partitions recap
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.4.10.9903171108450.176-100000@westnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Hey, thanks for all the tips and info.

For the record, the info was split right down the middle, with half of the
responses telling me to split 'em up and half saying to go with one, and a
couple of folks logically saying "it depends".

In our situation, we don't have any workstations.  Even the small machines
like the Sparc5 and the Ultra 1's are used as servers (though the sparc5
is on my desk because I don't have a PeeCee).  

We don't add a lot of applications to the servers, so that stays pretty
static.  Most of the servers aren't doing mail (the mail server has a
separate disk for the spool), and they don't do print spooling because
that's all done via an NT box (except for me :) ).  The large amount of
web content is already off on disk arrays and such.

So, in our case it made sense to finally go with one big partition.  It's
the first time I'm trying this, so we'll see how it goes.  The one really
good point that I think makes the most sense of the issue is UFS+ (or, for
us with 2.6, device logging with SDS).  You can't log root, and so you
can't log /usr or /opt if they're on one big partition.  However, we're
going to let that go and see how it works.  The big 50GB stripes are
making use of logging, though -- I wouldn't want to sit through fsck'ing
that!

All our root disks in production will be mirrored, which should cut down
on serious disk problems.  We're not too concerned about system disk
performance at this time.

If I were given the choice, I'd have gotten the systems with several
smaller disks, as someone suggested, because that gets you some good
performance enhancements as well as physical hardware protection, but the
decision was made that since 9GB weren't much expensive than 4 or 2
nowadays, they'd get the biggest disk they could, but only one of them (or
two in the case of mirroring).  

I hadn't though of making /usr read-only -- that's an interesting idea
that I'll have to explore in the future.  

Anyway, thanks once again for all the help.
-Adam

Rutherford, NJ USA  Free speech online! _/ 
http://westnet.com/~levins/    ________/ [He] opened his eyes.  Despite 
<*> __________________________/         all rationality, his hair ached.
-O /



From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar 17 08:58:37 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA18951
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:58:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mollie.jax.org (mollie.jax.org [192.233.42.5])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA18942
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:58:30 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mollie.jax.org (mollie.jax.org [192.233.42.5])
	by mollie.jax.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA02873
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:56:22 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:56:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Gregg TeHennepe <gat@jax.org>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: disk partitions question 
In-Reply-To: <B0F03DD29DA0D211ACCD00805FA7A0DB2A3C34@usazexg001>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9903171021340.2379-100000@mollie.jax.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Matthew Sparks (05-025) wrote:

> When teaching UNIX installation, I always use 1 slice, just to make the
> installation quick and easy. But we still teach how to slice the disk and
> how to determine slice sizes. I suggest when doing it for real to make
> separate slices for / at least.
> 
> The question is always asked, why bother?  

The same question could be asked of distributed vs mainframe computing. Why
bother with the overhead and cost of a desktop workstations when one huge
central machine will do? There is no one answer to this, but a wide range of
alternatives from which to select based on the management requirements of the
system.

Disk space, like memory, CPU, etc is a system resource that needs to be
managed in the context of its use. Desktop workstations may have limited or
fairly simple management requirements and may not need to be configured so as
to provide a broader range of management options, however larger server
systems will likely need greater control over various resources.

There may be the need to dedicate resources to particular users or processes.
On a shared system, a user group may wish to purchase additional disk for
their use; a separate partition and filesystem is a straight-forward method
for dedicating that resource to only that group. If running RAID on a terabyte
system, you may choose to accept the cost of mirroring on only the most
critical (ie OS) or I/O-dependent (ie RDBMS) filesystems, and RAID5 for the
rest. For a huge collection of rarely-accessed archive data, you may decide
that restoration from normal backups for recovery from disk failure is
sufficient, and the cost of RAID is unjustifiable.

There are issues of security; and NFS file server that needs to be secure
would be better served by separate partitions with explicit mount and export
options than by exporting the entire filesystem hierarchy.

There are issues of reliability and availability: as others have mentioned,
multiple partitions are most frequently used to segregate user and system
activity, OS from applications, etc. Allowing a user's run-away perl script to
take down the primary DNS server for a domain because it all lives on the same
partition would be a difficult configuration choice to defend, in my opinion.

At a lower level, there are many tunables disk formats, partitions, and
filesystems.  An example of this I've run into recently and that bears on the
single filesystem approach is that, under Solaris, there is a non-trivial
relationship between physical memory and the number of inodes in a filesystem.
The DNLC (directory name lookup cache) size is calculated by default from the
amount of physical memory (or close to it). A system with a single filesystem
(and thus a large number of inodes) and a small amount of memory will probably
have poor DNLC lookup hit rates, which would affect I/O performance (see
vmstat -s | grep cache, should be > 90%). Memory-poor systems affected by this
would need to either have multiple filesystems or have their DNLC (ncsize)
increased by hand.

Some could argue that, no matter what the system's use, there are basic admin
management issues for unix that demand multiple filesystems. I would say,
first know the requirements of the systems based on user/management
expectations, then know the issues, make your choices, be prepared to
explain/defend them, and onward ho! Notice that I put the expectations on the
system first: even if you do arrive at a "standard" for your site, it may not
apply in every case. If the user or the boss is standing on your chest, saying
I don't care what your standards are or my partitions look like, get this
machine installed by the end of the day, then you have a pretty clear
indication of the priorities guiding your config choices ;-).

Cheers  - Gregg

Gregg TeHennepe  | Unix Systems Administrator  | The Jackson Laboratory
gat@jax.org      | http://a.jax.org/~gat       | Bar Harbor, Maine  USA



From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar 17 12:24:25 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA27222
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:24:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: from pox.remarque.org (pox.remarque.org [206.80.1.43])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA27213
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:24:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: from remarque.org (old.remarque.org [206.80.1.42])
	by pox.remarque.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA24061
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:22:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from strata@localhost) by remarque.org (8.8.5/8.8.8) id MAA07863
	for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:17:19 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 12:17:19 PST
From: strata@virtual.net
Reply-To: strata@virtual.net
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: using SIMS with Netscape v4 LDAP server?
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.921701839.strata@remarque.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Anyone out there using Solstice Internet Mail Server with the Netscape
LDAP server rather than Sun's LDAP server?

We hear rumors of some "special" stuff that needs to be done to convert
an existing Netscape LDAP schema to play nice with SIMS.  Please drop me
a note if you have this running and/or are doing the same "learning
curve".  There are some, umm, political reasons we can't just ask
Netscape for the info, BTW (like, providing it might cost them a major
sale so they probably won't get it to us in time to do the eval). 
That's why I'm asking here instead of asking Netscape.  Our Sun rep says
he doesn't have the info, but knows it exists and is required for
successful interoperation.

Any leads appreciated,
_Strata

PS- will summarize to the list

===========================================================================
Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ]			 strata@virtual.net
VirtualNet Consulting				 http://www.virtual.net/
SAGE Level IV Unix Admin specializing in commercial-scale Internet services
===========================================================================


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar 17 15:18:57 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA05230
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:18:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: from peak.org (root@PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05186
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:18:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (sechrest@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peak.org
	(8.8.5/8.6.7) with ESMTP id PAA24977;
	Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:16:22 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903172316.PAA24977@peak.org>
To: sage-members@usenix.org, sysadm-expert@peak.org
Subject: Linux Certification
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:16:21 -0800
From: John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



	There is a linux certification process underway. 

	I would like to ask each of you a favor.

	Could you take a short amount of time. Go to the
	URL listed below and participate in the certification
	definition process a little bit by adding in tasks
	that you think people need to know.

	Thank you for your time to work on this task.




------- Forwarded Message

Date:    Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:17:19 -0800
Subject: using SIMS with Netscape v4 LDAP server?
From:    strata@virtual.net
To:      sage-members@usenix.ORG

Anyone out there using Solstice Internet Mail Server with the Netscape
LDAP server rather than Sun's LDAP server?

We hear rumors of some "special" stuff that needs to be done to convert
an existing Netscape LDAP schema to play nice with SIMS.  Please drop me
a note if you have this running and/or are doing the same "learning
curve".  There are some, umm, political reasons we can't just ask
Netscape for the info, BTW (like, providing it might cost them a major
sale so they probably won't get it to us in time to do the eval). 
That's why I'm asking here instead of asking Netscape.  Our Sun rep says
he doesn't have the info, but knows it exists and is required for
successful interoperation.

Any leads appreciated,
_Strata

PS- will summarize to the list

===========================================================================
Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ]			 strata@virtual.net
VirtualNet Consulting				 http://www.virtual.net/
SAGE Level IV Unix Admin specializing in commercial-scale Internet services
===========================================================================

------- End of Forwarded Message



From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 18 00:02:33 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA24011
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:02:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from draco.macsch.com (draco.macsch.com [192.73.8.1])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA23965
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:02:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bootes.is.macsch.com (bootes.is.macsch.com [161.34.1.42])
	by draco.macsch.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA23825;
	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:00:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from canismajor.is.macsch.com by bootes.is.macsch.com
	(4.1/MSCbootes.950222) id AA28137; Thu, 18 Mar 99 00:00:09 PST
Received: by canismajor.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSC.TW.SunOS.1.02)
	id AA28255; Thu, 18 Mar 99 00:00:08 PST
From: "Todd Williams" <todd@macsch.com>
Message-Id: <9903180000.ZM28253@canismajor.is.macsch.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:00:08 -0800
In-Reply-To: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
	"Disk partitions recap" (Mar 17, 11:17)
References: <Pine.SUN.4.10.9903171108450.176-100000@westnet.com>
X-Face: "FF3Li6k/|j$-t~Ut~7Tcrqj{YOlB#Kqid0f^}/Hq>yDnjmBRW5bJ\@EwsJ(jeU]B@?t6u'w:Z"C{8$}6kT+!sX[m.HgO{xR7q3>G-_*XwN_twn-d4&S!^or?@79qDeoMX_CS)_/lGAq9_P{9SFa5"!uAO(!,!$:{bQ^4|OAb-q{Pb'tkE^oRm_Wuecl0m4!_USKsHC/#$b_L-*$^T-Vy+_2io@[b?|Ls!_KSFXy!3bbJNxuJqm8$tQ&)090BBF-tx;
	^{)[*W,Q\>vEva?wi0FpG/]oa^*&
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95)
To: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Disk partitions recap
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Mar 17, 11:17, Adam and Christine Levin wrote:
> 
> For the record, the info was split right down the middle, with half of the
> responses telling me to split 'em up and half saying to go with one, and a
> couple of folks logically saying "it depends".

I guess you're talking about the email you received privately.  According
to my mailbox, there were 14 messages to the list that expressed an opinion
about this, and I'd tally it as follows:
	one big partition:			 1
	one big partition unless it's a server:	 1
	it depends:				 2
	multiple partitions:			10
OK, some at least some of the "traditionalists" mentioned servers, and maybe
two of them only mentioned a need for at least two partitions.  

I wonder how many of you have had the need to make sure that
/var/spool/mail and /var/spool/mqueue are on different partitions.

Does anyone know of any BENCHMARK RESULTS that study the performance of
multiple filesystems vs. one, or swap files vs. partition, etc.?  It sounds
like a possible LISA paper that we could refer to for years to come...

P.S. I've been burned by single partitions, and I've been burned by multiple
partitions.  Smaller, compartmentalized fires are easier to put out.

Todd Williams                     Manager, Computer and Communication Systems
MacNeal-Schwendler Corp. ("MSC"),  815 Colorado Blvd.,  Los Angeles, CA   90041
todd.williams@macsch.com          (323)259-4973          http://www.macsch.com/
geek  n. : a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usu.
includes biting the head off a live chicken or snake  -Webster's New Collegiate


From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 18 02:24:52 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA00219
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 02:24:52 -0800 (PST)
Received: from claymoor.onyx.net (claymoor.onyx.net [194.176.71.33])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA00210
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 02:24:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from arm10@localhost)
	by claymoor.onyx.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04885;
	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:21:34 GMT
Message-ID: <XFMail.990318102134.Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <9903180000.ZM28253@canismajor.is.macsch.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:21:34 -0000 (GMT)
Organization: Onyx Internet
From: Adam Morris <Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
To: Todd Williams <todd@macsch.com>
Subject: Re: Disk partitions recap
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


On 18-Mar-99 Todd Williams wrote:
> 
> I wonder how many of you have had the need to make sure that
> /var/spool/mail and /var/spool/mqueue are on different partitions.
> 

We have... :-)  but as an ISP I'm sure you expect that.

Adam.

- ----------------------------------
If this message isn't signed, it probably isn't me.
Adam Morris - Systems Engineer - Onyx Internet

In a five year period we can get one superb programming language.  Only
we can't control when the five year period will begin.

- ----------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNvDTrjxztoTO1QFNAQG/BgP9HqvZD4EecRVi5xdP51eEhMXPjesoAsCd
Zne232LpCzcV813zkBaPKPQcRvegS8DrB+xWnN9CA2FB52f4E6KPUNko7Qh6AJup
LlQuUVtJ6N2YpqPtwYOvZ5wz1rFYfoABsJoJTsDLxeyqwW23ArDUYByIuLL355Z9
8bH65MOlHWs=
=oicw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 18 06:02:26 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA07000
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:02:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: from westnet.com (levins@westnet.com [206.24.6.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA06991
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:02:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (levins@localhost)
	by westnet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA07107;
	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:00:03 -0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:00:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
To: Todd Williams <todd@macsch.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Disk partitions recap
In-Reply-To: <9903180000.ZM28253@canismajor.is.macsch.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.4.10.9903180858370.6580-100000@westnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Todd Williams wrote:
> I guess you're talking about the email you received privately.  According
> to my mailbox, there were 14 messages to the list that expressed an opinion
> about this, and I'd tally it as follows:

Yes, I also received private mail in answer to my question.

> I wonder how many of you have had the need to make sure that
> /var/spool/mail and /var/spool/mqueue are on different partitions.

Our mailserver handles a lot of mailings to customers (email lists of
specials and such), so we actually have those dirs on separate physical
disks.

-Adam




From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 18 06:59:53 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA09714
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:59:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from wainapanapa.sj.ptc.com ([12.7.244.21])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA09705
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:59:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from chef (chef.sj.ptc.com [132.253.4.24])
	by wainapanapa.sj.ptc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id GAA19838
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:56:26 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990318065128.00aa5200@mail.sj.ptc.com>
X-Sender: lsnyder@mail.sj.ptc.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:51:28 -0800
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: "Lowell R. Snyder Jr." <lsnyder@sj.ptc.com>
Subject: Re: Disk partitions recap
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.990318102134.Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
References: <9903180000.ZM28253@canismajor.is.macsch.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

The only place I recommend it here is on the big MX systems (but then
again, that is all they are doing).


At 10:21 AM 3/18/99 -0000, Adam Morris wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>
>On 18-Mar-99 Todd Williams wrote:
>> 
>> I wonder how many of you have had the need to make sure that
>> /var/spool/mail and /var/spool/mqueue are on different partitions.
>> 
>
>We have... :-)  but as an ISP I'm sure you expect that.
>
>Adam.
>
>- ----------------------------------
>If this message isn't signed, it probably isn't me.
>Adam Morris - Systems Engineer - Onyx Internet
>
>In a five year period we can get one superb programming language.  Only
>we can't control when the five year period will begin.
>
>- ----------------------------------
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.3ia
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQCVAwUBNvDTrjxztoTO1QFNAQG/BgP9HqvZD4EecRVi5xdP51eEhMXPjesoAsCd
>Zne232LpCzcV813zkBaPKPQcRvegS8DrB+xWnN9CA2FB52f4E6KPUNko7Qh6AJup
>LlQuUVtJ6N2YpqPtwYOvZ5wz1rFYfoABsJoJTsDLxeyqwW23ArDUYByIuLL355Z9
>8bH65MOlHWs=
>=oicw
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
---
Lowell R. Snyder Jr.
Sr. Systems Administrator
Parametric Technology Corp.
lsnyder@ptc.com
408-953-8643



From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 18 07:18:17 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10430
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:18:17 -0800 (PST)
Received: from peak.org (root@PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10413
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:18:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (sechrest@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peak.org
	(8.8.5/8.6.7) with ESMTP id HAA29691;
	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:16:03 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903181516.HAA29691@peak.org>
To: sage-members@usenix.org, sysadm-expert@peak.org
Subject: Linux-cert - Try again
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:16:02 -0800
From: John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



	Hello, I am sorry. I forwarded the wrong message
	earlier. I was in the wrong folder when I forwarded
	the message. 
	
	Here it is again......

	This time, with the right information:

	Thank you for your patience with my email mistakes.	
	
	-----------
	
        There is a linux certification process underway. 
	    
        I would like to ask each of you a favor.
		
        Could you take a short amount of time. Go to the
        URL listed below and participate in the certification
        definition process a little bit by adding in tasks
        that you think people need to know.
				
        Thank you for your time to work on this task.
				    
				    
				    


------- Forwarded Message

Date:    Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:59:54 +0100
Subject: linux certification job analysis pre-survey
From:    "A.R. (Tom) Peters" <tom@tompth.xs4all.nl>

Gentlemen:

  You contributed to the discussions on the mailing lists of what we have
come to call the Linux Professional Institute (http://www.lpi.org/).

  We are well underway in the definition of our Linux certification
program for system administration, and are taking the next step.  For the
definition of the program, we need to do a job analysis of system 
administration.  This will occur in 3 steps:

1) In the definition phase, we gather a comprehensive collection of tasks
that a system administrator will perform.  Subsequently these will be
edited for the next phase:

2) In the survey phase, we ask as many system adminstrators as possible to
complete a questionnaire on the tasks.

3) The results of this survey will be analysed to identify the actual
skills a Linux system administrator needs to have.

  We are now in the definition phase, and ask you to pass this message on
to people knowledgeable in system administration.  We invite them to take
a look at our website:

	http://www.lpi.org/cgi-bin/poms.py

  After reading the instructions, we would appreciate if they spend some
time to review the task descriptions there, and add any additional tasks
they know a system adminstrator needs to perform at their level of
experience.

  In this phase, we stake out the general area that will be covered by our
certification exams.  Therefore we hope that any professional Linux users
will take this opportunity to include any items that are of interest to
them.

  In our tight schedule, the definition phase runs untill friday 26
March. We will process all input, and return to you shortly after that
for the survey phase, with a request to ask your people to fill out the
questionnaire that we derived from the present round of input.

    Sincerely,
	Tom Peters	<tpeters@xs4all.nl>	program director

- --
#>!$!%(@^%#%*(&(#@#*$^@^$##*#@&(%)@**$!(&!^(#((#&%!)%*@)(&$($$%(@#)&*!^$)^@*^@)

	Tom "thriving on chaos" Peters
		NL-1062 KD nr 149	tel.    31-204080204
 			Amsterdam	e-mail  tpeters@xs4all.nl


------- End of Forwarded Message



From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 18 09:18:34 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA16072
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:18:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from minerva.psc.edu (minerva.psc.edu [128.182.62.121])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA16063
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:18:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (ecf@localhost) by minerva.psc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with
	SMTP id MAA26950 for <sage-members@usenix.org>;
	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:15:49 -0500
Message-Id: <199903181715.MAA26950@minerva.psc.edu>
X-Authentication-Warning: minerva.psc.edu: ecf@localhost didn't use HELO
	protocol
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Linux Certification 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:16:21 PST."
	<199903172316.PAA24977@peak.org> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:15:48 -0500
From: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



Well, to nit, this would assume that we all agree with the idea of _a_
certification process, let alone _this_ certification process. 

> 	There is a linux certification process underway. 
> 
> 	I would like to ask each of you a favor.
> 
> 	Could you take a short amount of time. Go to the
> 	URL listed below and participate in the certification
> 	definition process a little bit by adding in tasks
> 	that you think people need to know.





From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 18 09:30:35 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA16717
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:30:35 -0800 (PST)
Received: from tintin.cc.columbia.edu (tintin.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.39.23])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA16708
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:30:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from fuat@localhost)
	by tintin.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA12707;
	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:28:16 -0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 12:28:13 EST
From: "Fuat C. Baran" <fuat@tintin.cc.columbia.edu>
To: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Office: 619 Watson, 212-854-4804, Fax: 212-662-6442
URL: http://www.columbia.edu/~fuat/
Subject: Re: Linux Certification
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:15:48 -0500
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.921778093.fuat@tintin>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

>Well, to nit, this would assume that we all agree with the idea of _a_
>certification process, let alone _this_ certification process. 

Oh, no!  Not another round of certification debates.  If you agree and
wish to honor the request do so, if not don't.

						--Fuat



Columbia University                             fuat@columbia.edu
619 Watson Labs                                 212-854-4804
612 W115th Street                               212-662-6442 (Fax)
New York, NY 10025      Amateur Radio: N2YGN    http://www.columbia.edu/~fuat/


From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 18 14:30:19 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA29726
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:30:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: from peak.org (root@PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA29717
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:30:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (sechrest@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peak.org
	(8.8.5/8.6.7) with ESMTP id OAA16867;
	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:28:00 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903182228.OAA16867@peak.org>
To: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Linux Certification 
In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:15:48 EST.
	<199903181715.MAA26950@minerva.psc.edu> 
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:28:00 -0800
From: John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

	
	Actually it has little to do with you agreeing.
	
	Independent of what SAGE is doing or what sage will
	or will not agree to, there is a linux certification process.
	
	As was discussed before about certification..... 
	
	Someone is going to do it.
	
	Sage can either be involved or not involved. 
	
	I have personal beliefs about the consequences of 
	uninvolvement, but I will hold them.
	
	There is a process going for linux right now.
	
	If you have any thoughts put them in today or tomorrow.
	
	Then the window closes and the linux folks will move
	on to the next step.
	
	If you want to make a contribution, great.
	
	If you don't agree, then move on to another topic.
	
	


Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu> writes:

 % 
 % 
 % Well, to nit, this would assume that we all agree with the idea of _a_
 % certification process, let alone _this_ certification process. 
 % 
 % > 	There is a linux certification process underway. 
 % > 
 % > 	I would like to ask each of you a favor.
 % > 
 % > 	Could you take a short amount of time. Go to the
 % > 	URL listed below and participate in the certification
 % > 	definition process a little bit by adding in tasks
 % > 	that you think people need to know.
 % 
 % 
 % 

-----
John Sechrest          .         Helping people use
   PEAK -               .           computers and the Internet
Public Electronic         .            more effectively
Access to Knowledge,Inc       .                      
850 SW 15th Street              .            Internet: sechrest@peak.org
Corvallis Oregon 97331               .                  (541) 754-7325
                                            . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest


From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 18 14:38:25 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA00165
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:38:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: from minerva.psc.edu (minerva.psc.edu [128.182.62.121])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00156
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:38:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (ecf@localhost) by minerva.psc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with
	SMTP id RAA28836 for <sage-members@usenix.org>;
	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:35:41 -0500
Message-Id: <199903182235.RAA28836@minerva.psc.edu>
X-Authentication-Warning: minerva.psc.edu: ecf@localhost didn't use HELO
	protocol
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Linux Certification 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:28:00 PST."
	<199903182228.OAA16867@peak.org> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:35:40 -0500
From: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Hey, Pal!  I don't use Linux,  I don't LIKE Linux and I really don't give a 
flying
linguine if you wanna dismiss my opinions on Linux OR certification because I
refuse to agree with yours.

And as for the person who complained about "another certification debate" --
this is one of the reasons I joined this list.  If this topic is a problem here
maybe another list is needed.





From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 18 15:37:09 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA02515
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:37:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: from peak.org (root@PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02503
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:37:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (sechrest@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peak.org
	(8.8.5/8.6.7) with ESMTP id PAA28856;
	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:34:45 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903182334.PAA28856@peak.org>
To: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Linux Certification 
In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:35:40 EST.
	<199903182235.RAA28836@minerva.psc.edu> 
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:34:44 -0800
From: John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



	It is not a question of what I think about the process either.
	
	Sage has been discussing certification for over 2 years.
	Now, there is a generic linux certification happening
	outside of the sage process.
	
	If we want to participate,now is the time.
	
	If Sages wants certification, then you need to be participating
	in the sage certification committee that is supposed to 
	be working on this issue.
	
	All I am putting out is that there is a window that
	is open if sage members want to participate in the linux
	process. 
	
	Either way, my opinions don't matter either.
	

Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu> writes:

 % 
 % Hey, Pal!  I don't use Linux,  I don't LIKE Linux and I really don't give a 
 % flying
 % linguine if you wanna dismiss my opinions on Linux OR certification because I
 % refuse to agree with yours.
 % 
 % And as for the person who complained about "another certification debate" --
 % this is one of the reasons I joined this list.  If this topic is a problem here
 % maybe another list is needed.
 % 
 % 
 % 

-----
John Sechrest          .         Helping people use
   PEAK -               .           computers and the Internet
Public Electronic         .            more effectively
Access to Knowledge,Inc       .                      
850 SW 15th Street              .            Internet: sechrest@peak.org
Corvallis Oregon 97331               .                  (541) 754-7325
                                            . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest


From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 18 20:45:14 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA15060
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:45:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from smtp.enteract.com (thor.enteract.com [207.229.143.11])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA15051
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:45:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: (qmail 16283 invoked from network); 19 Mar 1999 04:43:00 -0000
Received: from adam.enteract.com (tip@206.54.252.1)
	by thor.enteract.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 04:43:00 -0000
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:43:00 -0600 (CST)
From: tip <tip@enteract.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Linux Certification
In-Reply-To: <199903172316.PAA24977@peak.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.990318223408.1868A-100000@adam.enteract.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, John Sechrest wrote:

> 	There is a linux certification process underway. 

how utterly inane. by coming up with the "concept" of linux "certification"
we have come to two conclusions:

1) "wow, let's have certification for everything, including an os that isn't
   taken seriously in a production environment." MUST there be a
   certification for EVERYTHING? how many different unix certifications are
   there? how many networking certifications?

   do we really (i mean, really) need ANOTHER one?

   the concept of certification has really been beat into the ground and
   sooner or later (probably has already) certification will mean nothing.
   well, maybe except for the CCIE.

2) linux has become more and more popular as the days go on; however, if you
   notice: most opponents of linux are stalwart and experienced administrators
   and programmers. it's the general (READ: END USER) public that has succumbed
   to the rants and raves of END USER publications (ie, wired, yahoo). it's
   really more of an alternative to microsoft products, but certainly NOT
   an alternative to solaris, hp-ux, or *bsd.

   thus, let it be ... do we really need "certification"?

goddam.




From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 18 22:42:53 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA19588
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:42:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.12.23])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA19579
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:42:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: (qmail 21747 invoked by uid 50); 19 Mar 1999 06:40:32 -0000
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Linux Certification
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.990318223408.1868A-100000@adam.enteract.com>
From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>
In-Reply-To: tip's message of "Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:43:00 -0600 (CST)"
Date: 18 Mar 1999 22:40:32 -0800
Message-ID: <yl7lseyobj.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>
Lines: 48
X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

tip <tip@enteract.com> writes:

> 2) linux has become more and more popular as the days go on; however, if
>    you notice: most opponents of linux are stalwart and experienced
>    administrators and programmers.

Most people who have any informed opinion on Linux whatsoever, good or
bad, are stalwart and experienced administrators and programmers.  It is,
after all, a Unix.

I have to admit that the idea of a "Linux" certification strikes me as
rather bizarre as well.  After having administered Unix machines ranging
from SunOS and NeXTSTEP through Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, and IRIX, and
including Linux, the major differences I've found, apart from the really
inane bzero/memset classes of pointless incompatibilities, are what GUI
tools that company or development group choose to wrap around standard
configuration files.

I suppose NeXTSTEP is an exception.  :)

I certainly hope that people will shy away from any sort of certification
in someone's ability to use the sorts of GUI sysadmin tools we see on most
Unixes these days.  They may serve as nice hand-holding when getting
started, and simplify some of the really hairy portions of system
configuration (have I mentioned that I hate printers?), but being a Unix
systems administrator means knowing /etc/passwd, /etc/resolv.conf, what an
fstab file looks like... and once you know things at that level, a Unix is
pretty much a Unix.

I would hope that any competent system administrator who's familiar with
pkgadd would be able to read the man pages for rpm and figure it out.  And
vice versa.  And, for that matter, figure it out even if they *weren't*
familiar with a package manager.  Similarly for slightly differing formats
in syslog.conf, whether or not inetd allows for various bits of extended
syntax, whether stuff is in /etc/init.d or /etc/rc.d/init.d or
/sbin/init.d... if those sort of differences are considered significant
for a certification program, then the certification program is aimed at a
considerably lower level of competence than I find interesting.

I have no idea if this particular certification process is actually making
that fundamental of a mistake or if they're simply working off of the
current hype over Linux and taking advantage of the fact that the word is
recognized, but in either case that presentation of it really turns me off
on assisting them.  Linux is not some fundamentally new operating system,
and the people who really understand Linux know that.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)         <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


From sage-members-owner  Thu Mar 18 23:52:48 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA22176
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:52:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: from engr.orst.edu (ENGR.ORST.EDU [128.193.54.1])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA22167
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:52:43 -0800 (PST)
Received: from flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU (flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU [128.193.55.70])
	by engr.orst.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA23434
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:50:35 -0800 (PST)
From: stults@ENGR.ORST.EDU
Received: from localhost by flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU (8.8.5/ENGR-Client)
	id HAA17765; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:50:35 GMT
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:50:35 -0800 (PST)
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Linux Certification
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.990318223408.1868A-100000@adam.enteract.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9903182336220.17462-100000@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

> 2) linux has become more and more popular as the days go on; however, if you
>    notice: most opponents of linux are stalwart and experienced administrators
>    and programmers. it's the general (READ: END USER) public that has succumbed
>    to the rants and raves of END USER publications (ie, wired, yahoo). it's
>    really more of an alternative to microsoft products, but certainly NOT
>    an alternative to solaris, hp-ux, or *bsd.

Linux is one of those things you can choose to fight, or choose to accept.
You don't really have to like it (I'm not advocating a particular OS,
Linux or otherwise), but you have to come to terms with reality.  More
than a few corporations are implementing Linux on production servers.
If you pay attention to the numbers of corporate users of Linux, and how
rapidly it is progressing each year, you have to come to this conclusion:

At least in somebody's mind (a small but significant minority), Linux is a
viable operating system and an attractive choice over other Unix variants.
This is a fact that stands separate from whatever your opinion may be--you
can choose to bury your head in the sand or you can keep your eyes on the
world around you and adjust to the changes.

Certification is not perfect, but it is an attempt at something better
than what we have now: nothing.  It's going to happen in any case, so it
seems to me that it would be good for SAGE members to get involved and
lend a guiding hand to the process.

Just my 2 cents.

David Stults



From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 04:04:50 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA01913
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 04:04:50 -0800 (PST)
Received: from cambridge1-smrly1 (cam-mail-relay1.bbnplanet.com
	[199.94.215.242]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA01855
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 04:04:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: from dilbert.sys.gtei.net (dilbert.sys.gtei.net [4.2.32.54])
	by cambridge1-smrly1 (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA29925;
	Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:02:09 GMT
Received: from localhost (mlamouri@localhost)
	by dilbert.sys.gtei.net (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00547;
	Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:01:58 GMT
X-Authentication-Warning: dilbert.sys.gtei.net: mlamouri owned process doing
	-bs
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:01:58 +0000 (GMT)
From: Mark Lamourine <mlamouri@gtei.net>
X-Sender: mlamouri@dilbert.sys.gtei.net
To: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Linux Certification 
In-Reply-To: <199903182235.RAA28836@minerva.psc.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.05.9903191157280.515-100000@dilbert.sys.gtei.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

This kind of list mail not appropriate.  If you have personal comments,
send them directly to the person.

His tone *could* be taken as dismissive.  Your tone cannot be taken for
anything but provocative.

If you want to have a debate, or to readdress issues that have been hashed
out in detail before you arrived, so be it.

"Nya Nya Nya Nya Nya" does not constitute a debate.

- Mark

Mark Lamourine <mlamouri@gtei.net>
GTE Internetworking, Network Operations, Server Administration
3 Van DeGraff Drive, PO Box 3073, Burlington, MA 01830
Voice: +1 781 262 4306   Fax: +1 781 262 5508

On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Esther Filderman wrote:

> 
> Hey, Pal!  I don't use Linux,  I don't LIKE Linux and I really don't give a 
> flying
> linguine if you wanna dismiss my opinions on Linux OR certification because I
> refuse to agree with yours.
> 
> And as for the person who complained about "another certification debate" --
> this is one of the reasons I joined this list.  If this topic is a problem here
> maybe another list is needed.
> 
> 
> 
> 



From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 04:32:34 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA02646
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 04:32:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from cambridge1-smrly1 (cam-mail-relay1.bbnplanet.com
	[199.94.215.242]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA02637
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 04:32:23 -0800 (PST)
Received: from dilbert.sys.gtei.net (dilbert.sys.gtei.net [4.2.32.54])
	by cambridge1-smrly1 (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA01917;
	Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:29:34 GMT
Received: from localhost (mlamouri@localhost)
	by dilbert.sys.gtei.net (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00561;
	Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:29:22 GMT
X-Authentication-Warning: dilbert.sys.gtei.net: mlamouri owned process doing
	-bs
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:29:22 +0000 (GMT)
From: Mark Lamourine <mlamouri@gtei.net>
X-Sender: mlamouri@dilbert.sys.gtei.net
To: tip <tip@enteract.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Linux Certification
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.990318223408.1868A-100000@adam.enteract.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.05.9903191206030.515-100000@dilbert.sys.gtei.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



Mark Lamourine <mlamouri@gtei.net>
GTE Internetworking, Network Operations, Server Administration
3 Van DeGraff Drive, PO Box 3073, Burlington, MA 01830
Voice: +1 781 262 4306   Fax: +1 781 262 5508

On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, tip wrote:

> On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, John Sechrest wrote:
> 
> > 	There is a linux certification process underway. 
> 
> how utterly inane. by coming up with the "concept" of linux "certification"
> we have come to two conclusions:
> 
> 1) "wow, let's have certification for everything, including an os that isn't
>    taken seriously in a production environment." MUST there be a
>    certification for EVERYTHING? how many different unix certifications are
>    there? how many networking certifications?
> 
>    do we really (i mean, really) need ANOTHER one?
> 
>    the concept of certification has really been beat into the ground and
>    sooner or later (probably has already) certification will mean nothing.
>    well, maybe except for the CCIE.

I agree with you here.  It's gonna happen whether we like it or not,
because some people want to do it and are willing to waste thier time.  I
can't stop them.  More's the shame.
 
> 2) linux has become more and more popular as the days go on; however, if you
>    notice: most opponents of linux are stalwart and experienced administrators
>    and programmers. it's the general (READ: END USER) public that has succumbed
>    to the rants and raves of END USER publications (ie, wired, yahoo). it's
>    really more of an alternative to microsoft products, but certainly NOT
>    an alternative to solaris, hp-ux, or *bsd.

I have to disagree with this. While a significant percentage of my
collegues would rather use FreeBSD or NetBSD or OpenBSD, there is no
consensis among them.  most are not opponents of Linux, rather they are 
proponents of thier favoite flavor. The rest, the majority use Linux all
the time. It's stable.  It works.  It's there. and it's easy.  It makes a 
fine firewall from those mass-market folks on the same bus as me on
MediaOne. There will always be a healthy group of purists pushing the
envelope, but I think that dismissing Linux as "mass market only" is
missing something.

I wouldn't call Cisco "mass-market" and they run thier printing system on
Linux.  There are lots of other large and small commercial examples.  Not
all of the administrators at all those shops are MS converts.

Since it doesn't cost anything more to pick an alternate, if Linux sucked
so badly that it didn't work, one of others would gain ground.  Start
"blue hat" or whatever to sell {Net,Open,Free}BSD.  Go for it.  I'll try
it.

>    thus, let it be ... do we really need "certification"?
> 
> goddam.

Hear Hear here!

- Mark



From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 05:12:48 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA03866
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 05:12:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: from goofey.gillard.wattle.id.au (matt@cybers.lnk.telstra.net
	[139.130.96.194]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA03857
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 05:12:29 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from matt@localhost)
	by goofey.gillard.wattle.id.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA07219;
	Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:11:42 +1100
Message-ID: <19990320001141.A7186@gillard.wattle.id.au>
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:11:41 +1100
From: Matthew Gillard <matt@gillard.wattle.id.au>
To: John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org>, sage-members@usenix.org,
	sysadm-expert@peak.org
Subject: Re: Linux-cert - Try again
Mail-Followup-To: John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org>,
	sage-members@usenix.ORG, sysadm-expert@peak.org
References: <199903181516.HAA29691@peak.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2
In-Reply-To: <199903181516.HAA29691@peak.org>;
	from John Sechrest on Thu, Mar 18, 1999 at 07:16:02AM -0800
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I am not so much concerned too much about the certification process for Linux or whatever,
my major concern is that there will be many different independent bodies with a Linux certification
available which would lessen the value of doing any Linux certification whatsoever.

I am only aware of www.lpi.org and the Red Hat certified Engineer program.  But I would not
be surprised that more are going to pop up at some point in the future.  This I think is where
SAGE could help out by providing some input as to where the certification may lead....as I think
they are.

I have not read all of the past discussions on this topic so please excuse me if I have touched
on something that has already been covered.

matt



From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 05:15:25 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA03948
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 05:15:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: from cambridge1-smrly1 (cam-mail-relay1.bbnplanet.com
	[199.94.215.242]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA03939
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 05:15:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: from dilbert.sys.gtei.net (dilbert.sys.gtei.net [4.2.32.54])
	by cambridge1-smrly1 (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA05858;
	Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:12:28 GMT
Received: from localhost (mlamouri@localhost)
	by dilbert.sys.gtei.net (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02067;
	Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:12:17 GMT
X-Authentication-Warning: dilbert.sys.gtei.net: mlamouri owned process doing
	-bs
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:12:17 +0000 (GMT)
From: Mark Lamourine <mlamouri@gtei.net>
X-Sender: mlamouri@dilbert.sys.gtei.net
To: Mark Lamourine <mlamouri@bbnplanet.com>
cc: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Linux Certification 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.05.9903191157280.515-100000@dilbert.sys.gtei.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.05.9903191311280.515-100000@dilbert.sys.gtei.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

My apologies for spamming the list.  My intent was to send this to Esther
directly.

Mark Lamourine <mlamouri@gtei.net>
GTE Internetworking, Network Operations, Server Administration
3 Van DeGraff Drive, PO Box 3073, Burlington, MA 01830
Voice: +1 781 262 4306   Fax: +1 781 262 5508

On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Mark Lamourine wrote:

> This kind of list mail not appropriate.  If you have personal comments,
> send them directly to the person.



From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 06:46:45 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA07054
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:46:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from inm.sentex.ca (r00t@inm.sentex.ca [205.211.164.96])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA07045
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:46:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: from admin3.ineural.com (gdunn@admin3.ineural.com [192.168.0.71])
	by inm.sentex.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA15005;
	Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:44:26 -0500
Received: (from gdunn@localhost)
	by admin3.ineural.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25540;
	Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:44:25 -0500
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:44:25 -0500
From: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>
To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Linux Certification
Message-ID: <19990319094424.B25128@ineural.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.990318223408.1868A-100000@adam.enteract.com>
	<yl7lseyobj.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i
In-Reply-To: <yl7lseyobj.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>;
	from Russ Allbery on Thu, Mar 18, 1999 at 10:40:32PM -0800
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Thu, Mar 18, 1999 at 10:40:32PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
[snip]
> 
> I have no idea if this particular certification process is actually making
> that fundamental of a mistake or if they're simply working off of the
> current hype over Linux and taking advantage of the fact that the word is
> recognized, but in either case that presentation of it really turns me off
> on assisting them.  Linux is not some fundamentally new operating system,
> and the people who really understand Linux know that.

Exactly.

Let's see ... New 'popular' OS + the same people who pay for M$ certs =
license to print money. 

Certification is a good idea when seen thusly: After certification you
are ready to start learning how to run systems. 

Anyone who hires based on a cert. and not experience gets the sysadmin
they deserve.

-- 
   gdunn@ineural.com	 Graham Dunn         || ||| | ||| |||| | |||| | 
Systems Administrator - International Neural Machines Inc. - Waterloo, ON
    Key fingerprint = 3F 56 12 9B 8A E1 77 CB  F0 62 94 B0 93 06 1E 88


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 07:24:37 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA09170
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:24:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: from minerva.psc.edu (minerva.psc.edu [128.182.62.121])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA09130
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:24:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (ecf@localhost) by minerva.psc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with
	SMTP id KAA02359 for <sage-members@usenix.org>;
	Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:21:48 -0500
Message-Id: <199903191521.KAA02359@minerva.psc.edu>
X-Authentication-Warning: minerva.psc.edu: ecf@localhost didn't use HELO
	protocol
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Linux Certification 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:12:17 GMT."
	<Pine.SOL.4.05.9903191311280.515-100000@dilbert.sys.gtei.net> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:21:47 -0500
From: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


> My apologies for spamming the list.  My intent was to send this to Esther
> directly.


How delightfully ironic.

So, fellow sysadmins, tell me:  Why is it so common here for posters to cc: the
person to whom they are responding?  Can we run our systems but not configure
our mail clients?





From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 07:33:05 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA09510
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:33:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from jhereg.perl.com (root@perl.com [199.45.135.9])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA09501
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:32:58 -0800 (PST)
Received: from jhereg (IDENT:tchrist@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by jhereg.perl.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA06755;
	Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:28:20 -0700
Message-Id: <199903191528.IAA06755@jhereg.perl.com>
To: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org, tchrist@jhereg.perl.com
Subject: Re: Linux Certification 
In-Reply-To: Message from Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu> of "Fri,
	19 Mar 1999 10:21:47 EST." <199903191521.KAA02359@minerva.psc.edu> 
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:28:19 -0700
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@jhereg.perl.com>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

> Can we run our systems but not configure our mail clients?

The addition CC is therefore merely a matter expedited delivery, since one
has obviously configured any reasonable mail client to ignore duplicate
received messages, by which one means either duplicate message IDs or
else bodies with duplicate size-checksum combos received within a certain
period of time.  

Apparently you forgot to do this with yours, eh? :-)

--tom


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 08:26:26 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA11729
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:26:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: from karoshi.ucsd.edu (karoshi.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.136])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA11720
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:26:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from brian@localhost) by karoshi.ucsd.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id IAA22969
	for sage-members@usenix.ORG; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:24:10 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:24:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Kantor <brian@karoshi.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <199903191624.IAA22969@karoshi.ucsd.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Linux Certification
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I suggest that instead of limiting access to this mailing list by
SAGE membership or not, we instead institute a minimum maturity
requirement.

Or better still, perhaps we could institute a minimum maturity
requirement for SAGE itself.  Then it might get somewhere.
	- Brian


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 10:30:47 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA19186
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:30:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ubatuba.dca.fee.unicamp.br (ubatuba.dca.fee.unicamp.br
	[143.106.11.134]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19175
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:30:17 -0800 (PST)
Received: from macauba.dca.fee.unicamp.br (macauba.dca.fee.unicamp.br
	[143.106.11.154])
	by ubatuba.dca.fee.unicamp.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20246
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:27:24 -0300 (EST)
Received: from localhost (antonio@localhost)
	by macauba.dca.fee.unicamp.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA05736
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:27:24 -0300 (EST)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:27:23 -0300 (EST)
From: Antonio Figueiredo <antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Solaris 7 patches ?!?!?!?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9903191519240.5731-100000@macauba.dca.fee.unicamp.br>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Hi Folks,

I have seen links to Solaris 7 patches in several pages, such as:
http://www.hert.org/solaris/patches/solaris-7.html
http://sunsolve.Sun.COM/pub-cgi/us/pubpatchpage.pl

But, I couldn't find any Solaris 7 patch at SunSolve ftp site.
Has anyone found the public patches available for Solaris 7?

Thanks,

--antonio

------------------
Antonio Figueiredo	            
School of Electrical and                  www.dca.fee.unicamp.br/~antonio  
Computer Engineering                           antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br  
State University of Campinas - Campinas, SP BRAZIL        +55 19 788-3845 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit         http://www.revista.unicamp.br/revista/navegacao/index9.html




From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 10:53:16 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA20507
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:53:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from valis.worldgate.com (root@valis.worldgate.com [198.161.84.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA20455
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:53:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ferrari.sentai.com (wg-nat-9-65.sentai.com [207.167.9.65])
	by valis.worldgate.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA22501
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:50:53 -0700 (MST)
Received: from trever ([10.0.0.63])
	by ferrari.sentai.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id LAA28019
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:51:35 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID: <00f301be7239$740c0640$3f00000a@trever.SWHQ>
From: "Trever Miller" <trever@sentai.com>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Linux Certification
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:51:06 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Kantor <brian@karoshi.ucsd.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.ORG <sage-members@usenix.ORG>
Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: Linux Certification


>I suggest that instead of limiting access to this mailing list by
>SAGE membership or not, we instead institute a minimum maturity
>requirement.
>
>Or better still, perhaps we could institute a minimum maturity
>requirement for SAGE itself.  Then it might get somewhere.
> - Brian



I've been wondering the same thing myself.  I've been a member
for the past year but only just now got around to subscribing
to the list, and am not terribly impressed with the level of
professionalism I've seen thus far.

[No, I am not a suit - just suggesting that a little less
 flame throwing might be in order]



From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 11:45:33 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA22951
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:45:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from inm.sentex.ca (r00t@inm.sentex.ca [205.211.164.96])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA22942
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:45:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: from admin3.ineural.com (gdunn@admin3.ineural.com [192.168.0.71])
	by inm.sentex.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA15378
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:43:16 -0500
Received: (from gdunn@localhost)
	by admin3.ineural.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26552
	for sage-members@usenix.ORG; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:43:14 -0500
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:43:14 -0500
From: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Linux Certification
Message-ID: <19990319144314.A26059@ineural.com>
References: <199903191624.IAA22969@karoshi.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i
In-Reply-To: <199903191624.IAA22969@karoshi.ucsd.edu>;
	from Brian Kantor on Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 08:24:10AM -0800
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 08:24:10AM -0800, Brian Kantor wrote:
> I suggest that instead of limiting access to this mailing list by
> SAGE membership or not, we instead institute a minimum maturity
> requirement.

Maturity Working Group                                         G. Dunn
Request for Comments: 31337                                 March 1999
BCP: 3.1415926

                          OFFICAL MATURITY STANDARDS

Status of this Memo

	This document specifies an Internet Best Current Practices for the
	Internet Community, and requests discussion and suggestions for
	improvements. Distribution of this memo is unlimited.

Copyright Notice

	Copyright (C) Me. All Wrongs Righted.

Abstract

	This RFC identifies the key behavioural traits comprising maturity.
	The intent is that these recommendations will improve the general
	quality of discussion on the Internet proper and rid the world of
	evil-doers[1].

	A brief summary of this memo is:

	o	"Nya nya nya" is not a logical argument.
	o	Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words will never
		hurt you[2].

1. Introduction

	This memo is Best Current Practice (BCP) RFC. As such, it, along with
	just about everything else you read on the Internet, should be taken 
	with a grain of salt[3]. This document is to be used as a guideline
	for the authoring and editing of messages intended for contribution
	to a multi-member forum.

	However, this memo is not generally intended as a description on how
	to generate and disseminate said messages - which words to type and
	opinions to express. If suggestions are provided, they will be
	clearly marked and should be read as such.

1.1. Scope

	This memo has no intention of being the final solution to the
	maturity problem plagueing the Internet.

	If, however, enough authors did implement enough of the suggestions
	described below, the Internet may, once again, become a haven for
	cascades, B1FF references, and Robert Anton Wilson in-jokes[4].

2. Perspective

	While in short supply, especially in educational dialogs regarding
	the always-fascinating NT-vs-Unix, Mac-vs-PC, and EBCDIC-vs-ASCII
	debates, a small amount of objectivity can add volumes to your
	message. A difference of opinion doesn't mean they're going to take
	away your favourite toy.

3. Nap Time

	Highly recommended. After naps, one can often independently reach
	the conclusion that the other members of the forum are not
	interested in your personal attack, no matter how insightful your
	observations regarding your correspondent's genetic lineage
	and species-specific sexual preferences may be.

4. There is no part 4.

5. Acknowledgments

	This memo is the result of a Friday afternoon with incredible
	opportunity for procrastination. The author wishes to thank RFC 2505
	for the wonderful tips regarding style, the participants in the
	SAGE-members email list for being miles better than any other email
	list going and the Academy.

6. References

	[1] Marvel Universe #37, See esp. Luthor, Lex

	[2]	There are certain cases in which words can, in fact, hurt you.
		See "Witch hunt, Salem" and "McCarthy, Senator J."
		
	[3] See "Reaction, Knee Jerk"

	[4] Fnord!

Editor's Address

	Graham Dunn
	Waterloo, ON
	Email: gdunn@ineural.com

-- 
   gdunn@ineural.com	 Graham Dunn         || ||| | ||| |||| | |||| | 
Systems Administrator - International Neural Machines Inc. - Waterloo, ON
    Key fingerprint = 3F 56 12 9B 8A E1 77 CB  F0 62 94 B0 93 06 1E 88


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 12:07:07 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA23924
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:07:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ptssmsgpltn01.pltn4698.ptss.com (ptssmsgpltn01.msg.ptss.com
	[155.241.18.77]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA23896
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:06:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: by ptssmsgpltn01.msg.ptss.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
	id <GSARSN4N>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:04:17 -0800
Message-ID: <115B6F25FF80D211A64900805FEA7ED0047F30@ptssmsgpltn02.msg.ptss.com>
From: "Melendez, George A (PTSS-ga5mele)" <ga5mele@ptss.com>
To: "'sage-members@usenix.org'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Oracle Traning for SA
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:04:10 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Hello:

I admister a unix server that runs a large Oracle dababase (8.0).  I want to
understand the oracle architecture on a unix server, so I pardner more
effectively with my DBA.   I believe what I need is an overview of Oracle
architecture.

I been looking around, and so far the training that I found is for a Oracle
user and it's not what I am looking for.  

Any suggestions on how I can meet mine training need?

Thanks,


George A. Melendez
Unix System Administrator
ga5mele@ptss.com





From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 12:31:01 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA25077
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:31:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: from news.mag-net.com (news.mag-net.com [207.102.83.11])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA25063
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:30:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hope.UUCP (uucp@localhost)
	by news.mag-net.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with UUCP id MAA11916
	for usenix.org!sage-members; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:28:46 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:33:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Chriseli de Rama <chriseli@hh.bc.ca>
X-Sender: chriseli@hope
To: Brian Kantor <brian@karoshi.ucsd.edu>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Linux Certification
In-Reply-To: <199903191624.IAA22969@karoshi.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.3.91.990319110906.25606A-100000@hope>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

please define maturity requirement. is this maturity in terms of
profession or behavioural maturity? 

chriseli

On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Brian Kantor wrote:

> I suggest that instead of limiting access to this mailing list by
> SAGE membership or not, we instead institute a minimum maturity
> requirement.
> 
> Or better still, perhaps we could institute a minimum maturity
> requirement for SAGE itself.  Then it might get somewhere.
> 	- Brian
> 
> 






From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 13:15:42 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA27416
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:15:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: from sekrit.office.oceanwave.com (laslo.ne.mediaone.net
	[24.128.67.33]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA27399
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:15:35 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from arr@localhost)
	by sekrit.office.oceanwave.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA09432;
	Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:13:04 -0500 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: sekrit.office.oceanwave.com: arr set sender to
	arr@sekrit.office.oceanwave.com using -f
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <14066.48607.609907.793426@sekrit.office.oceanwave.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:13:03 -0500 (EST)
From: <arr@oceanwave.com> (A. Rich)
To: Antonio Figueiredo <antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Solaris 7 patches ?!?!?!?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9903191519240.5731-100000@macauba.dca.fee.unicamp.br>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9903191519240.5731-100000@macauba.dca.fee.unicamp.br>
X-Mailer: VM 6.63 under Emacs 20.3.1
X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5B F5 08 B3 6B 11 72 BD  19 29 1B 98 D2 94 77 D8
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


antonio> I have seen links to Solaris 7 patches in several pages, such as:
antonio> http://www.hert.org/solaris/patches/solaris-7.html
antonio> http://sunsolve.Sun.COM/pub-cgi/us/pubpatchpage.pl

I'm guessing you don't have a contract and you're just looking for free
patches?  If so, click on the link at the bottom of
http://sunsolve.Sun.COM/pub-cgi/us/pubpatchpage.pl labled ``Security and
Recommended Patches,'' or go directly to 
http://sunsolve.Sun.COM/sunsolve/us/pubpatches/patches.html

-- 
Amy Rich <arr@oceanwave.com>                    Oceanwave Consulting, Inc.
UNIX Systems Administration Consultant          12 Hines Way
http://www.oceanwave.com/                       Marblehead, MA  01945
Phone: 781-631-6160                             Fax: 781-631-6160


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 13:29:39 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA28026
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:29:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail01-lax.pilot.net (mail-lax-1.pilot.net [205.139.40.18])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA28017
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:29:36 -0800 (PST)
From: leeann@rand.org
Received: from mail.rand.org (unknown-8-173.rand.org [130.154.8.173] (may be
	forged)) by mail01-lax.pilot.net with ESMTP id NAA28892 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:27:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: from crane.rand.org (crane.rand.org [130.154.9.180]) by
	mail.rand.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14670 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:27:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: from nightstalker.rand.org (nightstalker.rand.org [130.154.2.202])
	by crane.rand.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08016 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:27:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: from nightstalker.rand.org (leeann@localhost) by
	nightstalker.rand.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01365 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:27:26 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903192127.NAA01365@nightstalker.rand.org>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Solaris 7 patches ?!?!?!? 
In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:27:23 -0300.
	<Pine.GSO.4.10.9903191519240.5731-100000@macauba.dca.fee.unicamp.br> 
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:27:26 -0800
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


There doesn't look to be any public patches for Solaris 7 yet. I see patches
for the contract customers, but that's all.

Lee Ann

--Your message was: (from Antonio Figueiredo)
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> I have seen links to Solaris 7 patches in several pages, such as:
> http://www.hert.org/solaris/patches/solaris-7.html
> http://sunsolve.Sun.COM/pub-cgi/us/pubpatchpage.pl
> 
> But, I couldn't find any Solaris 7 patch at SunSolve ftp site.
> Has anyone found the public patches available for Solaris 7?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> --antonio

--
Lee Ann Goldstein, Computer Operations
Rand Corp., Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
leeann@rand.org


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 13:53:52 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA29243
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:53:52 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gateway.cyprus.com (gateway.cyprus.com [12.10.229.10])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA29226
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:53:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: by gateway.cyprus.com; id QAA27193;
	Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:55:21 -0500 (EST)
Received: from enexnt01.cyprus.com(167.96.60.17) by gateway.cyprus.com via
	smap (4.1) id xma027029; Fri, 19 Mar 99 14:54:56 -0700
Received: by enexnt01.cyprus.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
	id <H2PSJGB4>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:48:56 -0700
Message-ID: <E25C2CDD60A5D21191AF00A0C99960F90E55D0@enexnt01.cyprus.com>
From: "Gilliland, James     (EN) 5980" <jgilliland@cyprus.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Maturity BCP RFC
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:48:49 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01BE7252.49E43A72"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_000_01BE7252.49E43A72
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

Well Done!

Gil Gilliland			Cyprus Amax Minerals
Oracle DBA / Unix SA		9100 E Mineral Circle
jgilliland@cyprus.com		Englewood, CO 80112
303-643-5980


-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Dunn [mailto:gdunn@ineural.com]
Sent: Friday, March 19, 1999 12:43 PM
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Linux Certification

Maturity Working Group                                         G. Dunn
Request for Comments: 31337                                 March 1999
BCP: 3.1415926

                          OFFICAL MATURITY STANDARDS

Status of this Memo

	This document specifies an Internet Best Current Practices for the
	Internet Community, and requests discussion and suggestions for
	improvements. Distribution of this memo is unlimited.
< body of message deleted for brevity>


------_=_NextPart_000_01BE7252.49E43A72
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="Gil Gilliland (E-mail).vcf"
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Gil Gilliland (E-mail).vcf"

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Gilliland;Gil;;;
FN:Gil Gilliland (E-mail)
ORG:Cyprus Amax Minerals;Systems Engineering
TITLE:Oracle Database Administrator
TEL;WORK;VOICE:(303) 643-5980
TEL;PAGER;VOICE:(303) 207-5585
TEL;WORK;FAX:(303) 643-5971
ADR;WORK:;103N;9100 E. Mineral Circle;Englewood;CO;80112;United States of America
LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:103N=0D=0A9100 E. Mineral Circle=0D=0AEnglewood, CO 80112=0D=0AUnited States=
 of America
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:jgilliland@cyprus.com
REV:19980723T164602Z
END:VCARD

------_=_NextPart_000_01BE7252.49E43A72--


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 14:07:55 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA29968
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:07:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: from seadragon. (seadragon.mbt.washington.edu [128.95.231.151])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA29958
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:07:35 -0800 (PST)
Received: from u.washington.edu by seadragon. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id OAA15545; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:05:09 -0800
Message-ID: <36F2CAA2.9E4E724C@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:07:30 -0800
From: Leeland Artra <leeland@u.washington.edu>
Organization: Cellworks Project
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "Melendez, George A (PTSS-ga5mele)" <ga5mele@ptss.com>
CC: "'sage-members@usenix.org'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Oracle Traning for SA
References: <115B6F25FF80D211A64900805FEA7ED0047F30@ptssmsgpltn02.msg.ptss.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Greetings,

"Melendez, George A (PTSS-ga5mele)" wrote:
> I admister a unix server that runs a large Oracle dababase (8.0).  I want to
> understand the oracle architecture on a unix server, so I pardner more
> effectively with my DBA.   I believe what I need is an overview of Oracle
> architecture.
> 
> I been looking around, and so far the training that I found is for a Oracle
> user and it's not what I am looking for.
> 
> Any suggestions on how I can meet mine training need?

I teach a 1 day course at SANS on this exact topic (Oracle for SAs). A short 2
hour 'intro' course is also part of the technical sessions. Last year's short
intro course on Oracle for SAs can be had at:

http://cellworks.washington.edu/pub/Presentations/199805_SANS_ITALK.pdf

The full day course materials are also online at:

http://cellworks.washington.edu/pub/Presentations/199805_SANS.pdf

If you are going to SANS I am giving version 2.0 of the 1 day course, version
2.0 of the intro short course and a new talk on Oracle security for SAs.

Cheers,
Leeland

-- 
// Leeland Artra                   Box 357730 Rm K343
// Senior Systems Administrator    Seattle, Washington 98195-7730
// Cellworks Project, UW           phone:206.616.7233 fax:206.685.7301
// mailto:leeland@u.washington.edu http://cellworks.washington.edu/


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 14:33:01 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01218
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:33:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: from minerva.psc.edu (minerva.psc.edu [128.182.62.121])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01194
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:32:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (ecf@localhost) by minerva.psc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with
	SMTP id RAA04883 for <sage-members@usenix.org>;
	Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:30:13 -0500
Message-Id: <199903192230.RAA04883@minerva.psc.edu>
X-Authentication-Warning: minerva.psc.edu: ecf@localhost didn't use HELO
	protocol
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RFC 31337 (was: Re: Linux Certification )
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:43:14 EST."
	<19990319144314.A26059@ineural.com> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:30:12 -0500
From: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Graham Dunn, Sooopergenius,  writes:

> 	[4] Fnord!
> 
> Systems Administrator - International Neural Machines Inc. - Waterloo, ON
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Coinky-dink?  YOU decide!






From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 15:05:10 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA02676
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:05:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail.inu.net (downtown.inu.net [208.129.164.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA02636
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:04:56 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903192304.PAA02636@usenix.ORG>
Received: from nexttown [208.129.164.20] by mail.inu.net
	(SMTPD32-4.06) id A6EB734D0146; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:59:55 CST
X-Sender: bobmartin@downtown.inu.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:02:09 -0600
To: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>
From: Bob Martin <BobMartin@inu.net>
Subject: Re: Request for Comments: 31337
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <19990319144314.A26059@ineural.com>
References: <199903191624.IAA22969@karoshi.ucsd.edu>
	<199903191624.IAA22969@karoshi.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Mr. Dunn,
Thank you for your enlightenment.

1).One clear sign of maturity is a well developed sense of humor. (I not
sure about Friday afternoons with incredible opportunity for
procrastination, but it should be a standard for maturity if it not already).

2). Naps are "a very good thing".

Bob Martin, CIO
Computing Concepts.

At 02:43 PM 3/19/99 -0500, you wrote:
>On Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 08:24:10AM -0800, Brian Kantor wrote:
>> I suggest that instead of limiting access to this mailing list by
>> SAGE membership or not, we instead institute a minimum maturity
>> requirement.
>
>Maturity Working Group                                         G. Dunn
>Request for Comments: 31337                                 March 1999
>BCP: 3.1415926
>
>                          OFFICAL MATURITY STANDARDS
>
>Status of this Memo
>
>	This document specifies an Internet Best Current Practices for the
>	Internet Community, and requests discussion and suggestions for
>	improvements. Distribution of this memo is unlimited.
>
>Copyright Notice
>
>	Copyright (C) Me. All Wrongs Righted.
>
>Abstract
>
>	This RFC identifies the key behavioural traits comprising maturity.
>	The intent is that these recommendations will improve the general
>	quality of discussion on the Internet proper and rid the world of
>	evil-doers[1].
>
>	A brief summary of this memo is:
>
>	o	"Nya nya nya" is not a logical argument.
>	o	Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words will never
>		hurt you[2].
>
>1. Introduction
>
>	This memo is Best Current Practice (BCP) RFC. As such, it, along with
>	just about everything else you read on the Internet, should be taken 
>	with a grain of salt[3]. This document is to be used as a guideline
>	for the authoring and editing of messages intended for contribution
>	to a multi-member forum.
>
>	However, this memo is not generally intended as a description on how
>	to generate and disseminate said messages - which words to type and
>	opinions to express. If suggestions are provided, they will be
>	clearly marked and should be read as such.
>
>1.1. Scope
>
>	This memo has no intention of being the final solution to the
>	maturity problem plagueing the Internet.
>
>	If, however, enough authors did implement enough of the suggestions
>	described below, the Internet may, once again, become a haven for
>	cascades, B1FF references, and Robert Anton Wilson in-jokes[4].
>
>2. Perspective
>
>	While in short supply, especially in educational dialogs regarding
>	the always-fascinating NT-vs-Unix, Mac-vs-PC, and EBCDIC-vs-ASCII
>	debates, a small amount of objectivity can add volumes to your
>	message. A difference of opinion doesn't mean they're going to take
>	away your favourite toy.
>
>3. Nap Time
>
>	Highly recommended. After naps, one can often independently reach
>	the conclusion that the other members of the forum are not
>	interested in your personal attack, no matter how insightful your
>	observations regarding your correspondent's genetic lineage
>	and species-specific sexual preferences may be.
>
>4. There is no part 4.
>
>5. Acknowledgments
>
>	This memo is the result of a Friday afternoon with incredible
>	opportunity for procrastination. The author wishes to thank RFC 2505
>	for the wonderful tips regarding style, the participants in the
>	SAGE-members email list for being miles better than any other email
>	list going and the Academy.
>
>6. References
>

>	[1] Marvel Universe #37, See esp. Luthor, Lex
>
>	[2]	There are certain cases in which words can, in fact, hurt you.
>		See "Witch hunt, Salem" and "McCarthy, Senator J."
>		
>	[3] See "Reaction, Knee Jerk"
>
>	[4] Fnord!
>
>Editor's Address
>
>	Graham Dunn
>	Waterloo, ON
>	Email: gdunn@ineural.com
>
>-- 
>   gdunn@ineural.com	Graham Dunn         || ||| | ||| |||| | |||| | 
>Systems Administrator - International Neural Machines Inc. - Waterloo, ON
>    Key fingerprint = 3F 56 12 9B 8A E1 77 CB  F0 62 94 B0 93 06 1E 88
> 


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 15:15:54 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA03241
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:15:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: from news.mag-net.com (news.mag-net.com [207.102.83.11])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA03230
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:15:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hope.UUCP (uucp@localhost)
	by news.mag-net.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with UUCP id PAA16030
	for usenix.org!sage-members; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:13:41 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:11:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Chriseli de Rama <chriseli@hh.bc.ca>
X-Sender: chriseli@hope
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: SUMMARY: How do you know if you need a LAN Switch?
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.3.91.990319150955.29527B-100000@hope>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Thanks for all your replies. I appreciate it. :-) Here's a brief summary 
of the answers I got.

-chriseli

Functions of a LAN Switch
1. Security Measure
	- limit access to packets by making a workstation only see the 
	multicasts, broadcasts, and traffic intended for it
2. Bandwith Tool/Traffic Isolation
	- partition and expand bandwidth
	- reduce contention for bandwidth

Q: How will I know if a LAN would need a LAN switch? Is it dependent on 
the number of users in a LAN?

A LAN switch is needed... 
1. If you have a network with a traffic pattern that has some specific hot
spots. 
2.  When packet transimissions are delayed (i.e. when an Ethernet is
running more than about 10% to 20% capacity). 
3. When there is a collision rate above 1% to 2%. In short, if there are
many collisions. If collision rate is really high, cause might be a
defective network equipment. 

Statistics for collision and traffic can be obtained with the use of a 
LAN monitor or some other diagnostic equipment that can read packet 
collisions.

Based on the replies, the need for a LAN switch depends on network traffic
congestion and not on the number of users in a LAN. 

Q: Ideally, how many users should there be in a segment when a LAN switch 
is installed?
1. 50 "typical" users / switched segment
2. 2 to 5 workstations per port (if ports are at a premium)
3. clusters of workstations (e.g. users in a wing of a building or lab) 
per cluster switch

Limitations:
1. Misconfiguration probem: Any machine can claim any oter machines's IP 
addresses especially if the two machines are on the same subnet.
2. You can't immediately see all the traffic between two machines when a 
switch is involved.
3. Flood Mac tables

Recommended Reference:
1. Managing IP Networks with Cisco Routers (O'Reilly)



From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 17:12:33 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA08166
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:12:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail.inu.net (downtown.inu.net [208.129.164.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA08156
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:12:23 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903200112.RAA08156@usenix.ORG>
Received: from nexttown [208.129.164.20] by mail.inu.net
	(SMTPD32-4.06) id A4F0289300FA; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:08:00 CST
X-Sender: bobmartin@downtown.inu.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:10:14 -0600
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Bob Martin <BobMartin@inu.net>
Subject: Re: Request for Comments: 31337
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Mr. Dunn,
Thank you for your enlightenment.

1).One clear sign of maturity is a well developed sense of humor. (I not
sure about Friday afternoons with incredible opportunity for
procrastination, but it should be a standard for maturity if it not already).

2). Naps are "a very good thing".

Bob Martin, CIO
Computing Concepts.

At 02:43 PM 3/19/99 -0500, you wrote:
>On Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 08:24:10AM -0800, Brian Kantor wrote:
>> I suggest that instead of limiting access to this mailing list by
>> SAGE membership or not, we instead institute a minimum maturity
>> requirement.
>
>Maturity Working Group                                         G. Dunn
>Request for Comments: 31337                                 March 1999
>BCP: 3.1415926
>
>                          OFFICAL MATURITY STANDARDS
>
>Status of this Memo
>
>	This document specifies an Internet Best Current Practices for the
>	Internet Community, and requests discussion and suggestions for
>	improvements. Distribution of this memo is unlimited.
>
>Copyright Notice
>
>	Copyright (C) Me. All Wrongs Righted.
>
>Abstract
>
>	This RFC identifies the key behavioural traits comprising maturity.
>	The intent is that these recommendations will improve the general
>	quality of discussion on the Internet proper and rid the world of
>	evil-doers[1].
>
>	A brief summary of this memo is:
>
>	o	"Nya nya nya" is not a logical argument.
>	o	Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words will never
>		hurt you[2].
>
>1. Introduction
>
>	This memo is Best Current Practice (BCP) RFC. As such, it, along with
>	just about everything else you read on the Internet, should be taken 
>	with a grain of salt[3]. This document is to be used as a guideline
>	for the authoring and editing of messages intended for contribution
>	to a multi-member forum.
>
>	However, this memo is not generally intended as a description on how
>	to generate and disseminate said messages - which words to type and
>	opinions to express. If suggestions are provided, they will be
>	clearly marked and should be read as such.
>
>1.1. Scope
>
>	This memo has no intention of being the final solution to the
>	maturity problem plagueing the Internet.
>
>	If, however, enough authors did implement enough of the suggestions
>	described below, the Internet may, once again, become a haven for
>	cascades, B1FF references, and Robert Anton Wilson in-jokes[4].
>
>2. Perspective
>
>	While in short supply, especially in educational dialogs regarding
>	the always-fascinating NT-vs-Unix, Mac-vs-PC, and EBCDIC-vs-ASCII
>	debates, a small amount of objectivity can add volumes to your
>	message. A difference of opinion doesn't mean they're going to take
>	away your favourite toy.
>
>3. Nap Time
>
>	Highly recommended. After naps, one can often independently reach
>	the conclusion that the other members of the forum are not
>	interested in your personal attack, no matter how insightful your
>	observations regarding your correspondent's genetic lineage
>	and species-specific sexual preferences may be.
>
>4. There is no part 4.
>
>5. Acknowledgments
>

>	This memo is the result of a Friday afternoon with incredible
>	opportunity for procrastination. The author wishes to thank RFC 2505
>	for the wonderful tips regarding style, the participants in the
>	SAGE-members email list for being miles better than any other email
>	list going and the Academy.
>
>6. References
>
>	[1] Marvel Universe #37, See esp. Luthor, Lex
>
>	[2]	There are certain cases in which words can, in fact, hurt you.
>		See "Witch hunt, Salem" and "McCarthy, Senator J."
>		
>	[3] See "Reaction, Knee Jerk"
>
>	[4] Fnord!
>
>Editor's Address
>
>	Graham Dunn
>	Waterloo, ON
>	Email: gdunn@ineural.com
>
>-- 
>   gdunn@ineural.com	Graham Dunn         || ||| | ||| |||| | |||| | 
>Systems Administrator - International Neural Machines Inc. - Waterloo, ON
>    Key fingerprint = 3F 56 12 9B 8A E1 77 CB  F0 62 94 B0 93 06 1E 88
> 


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 19 17:21:59 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA08522
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:21:59 -0800 (PST)
Received: from burlma1-smrt1.gtei.net (burlma1-smrt1.gtei.net [4.2.35.10])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA08513
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:21:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bbnplanet.com (syntax.sys.gtei.net [4.2.32.43])
	by burlma1-smrt1.gtei.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id BAA04403;
	Sat, 20 Mar 1999 01:19:35 GMT
Message-ID: <36F2F7A7.FF08F431@bbnplanet.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:19:35 -0500
From: John Orthoefer <jco@bbnplanet.com>
Organization: BBN Planet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Adam Morris <Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
CC: Todd Williams <todd@macsch.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Disk partitions recap
References: <XFMail.990318102134.Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Adam Morris wrote:
> > I wonder how many of you have had the need to make sure that
> > /var/spool/mail and /var/spool/mqueue are on different partitions.
> >
> 
> We have... :-)  but as an ISP I'm sure you expect that.

As another ISP I wouldn't expect that.  We compartmentlise even larger. 
There are machines which do mail relay (they get there own mqueues)
there are machine which get mail (they have there own /var/spool/mails)
the twian shall never meet.

johno
GTE Internetworking


From sage-members-owner  Sat Mar 20 07:17:45 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA09927
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:17:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from minerva.psc.edu (minerva.psc.edu [128.182.62.121])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA09918
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:17:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (ecf@localhost) by minerva.psc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with
	SMTP id KAA06931 for <sage-members@usenix.org>;
	Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:15:01 -0500
Message-Id: <199903201515.KAA06931@minerva.psc.edu>
X-Authentication-Warning: minerva.psc.edu: ecf@localhost didn't use HELO
	protocol
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Apologies to all
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:15:00 -0500
From: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Folks,

I'm terribly sorry about my posts here yesterday.  I'm not usually
so petty on mailing lists.

Yesterday morning I was notified of the sudden death of a friend
the previous evening.  While that's no excuse for my behaviour,
it is a reason.


Best to you all.


From sage-members-owner  Sat Mar 20 13:15:43 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA24454
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:15:43 -0800 (PST)
Received: from vielle.datasys.net (mark@vielle.datasys.net [204.252.164.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA24403
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:15:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from mark@localhost) by vielle.datasys.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA03215
	for sage-members@usenix.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:13:28 -0500
Message-Id: <199903202113.QAA03215@vielle.datasys.net>
From: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:13:27 -0500
Reply-To: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey)
X-Pgp-Fingerprint: DB 6B 9E 9F B5 F2 9B 6D A0 BE D8 10 6B 22 8F 06
X-Accept-Language: sh
X-Tom-Swiftie: I like writing artificially intelligent programs, Tom lisped.
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 1995-03-03)
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Load balancing: DNS or otherwise?
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Good Saturday/Sunday to you all --

I'm contemplating implementing a load-balancing system for email and
web services, primarily for reliability. I'd appreciate any opinions
from you fine, sagacious people.

Idea 0 ($70k):
	Install two mail servers and two web servers, with files for each
	stored on a central file server (maybe a Network Appliance box, e.g.).
	Use multiple DNS A RR's for each; e.g.
		www	in	a	1.1.1.50
			in	a	1.1.1.51
		mail	in	a	1.1.1.20
			in	a	1.1.1.21
	so that the connection decision is made by the client.

Idea 1:
	Install two mail servers and two web servers, share files between 
	between them using CODA or AFS, and possibly install a load 
	balancer (something from BigIP, maybe) instead of using DNS to
	do the balancing.

Of course, I'll gladly consider any permutation of these options, or
even other options. What have you seen work?

Thanks.




From sage-members-owner  Sat Mar 20 15:13:27 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA28384
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:13:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: from elektra.ultra.net (elektra.ultra.net [199.232.56.13])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA28375
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:13:22 -0800 (PST)
From: jprovo@ma.ultranet.com
Received: (from jprovo@localhost) by elektra.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult.n14767) id
	SAA21866 for sage-members@usenix.ORG;
	Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:11:14 -0500 (EST)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:11:14 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199903202311.SAA21866@elektra.ultra.net>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re:  Load balancing: DNS or otherwise?
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


>Idea 0 ($70k):
>	Install two mail servers and two web servers, with files for each
>	stored on a central file server (maybe a Network Appliance box, e.g.).
>	Use multiple DNS A RR's for each; e.g.
[snip]
Most[those based on vixie code] DNS implementations will round-robin in
that situation, resulting in a nondeterministic load sharing scenario
that works, but does not "load balance", nor give you any transparent 
fault tolerance, nor control over the load sharing.  That is, 
	you can't say what fraction of actual work will be split between
	 the machines, as the shift will take place on each request for
	 the DNS RR, some stacks will cache the first response and never
	 ask again, et al client-end oddities.
	the only way you can remove something from service is to remove
	 it from the DNS (how low are your SOA timers?) or alias the
	 address of the failed unit onto a working one (so much for 
	 getting geographic diversity as well, eh?).  Neither of those
	 are appealing to automate, so you'll be involved in all
	 failures.

All that said, it is fine on high uptime (infrequently modified), low
use, or non-critical systems.

>Idea 1:
>	Install two mail servers and two web servers, share files between 
>	between them using CODA or AFS, and possibly install a load 
[snip]
Cisco LocalDirectors give you the deterministic controls, availability
hertbeats, transparent failures, allow mapping of address/port pairs to
arbitrary hosts, etc.  Hands-on experience has only been positive, even
though there are potentially severe performance knees (happily pointed
out by the alteon/foundry crowd).  IMO, the levels at which you're
talking about hitting those knees are levels where you don't want all
your data in one site anyway, and you should be thinking about
geographically diverse solutions.

One note though; mail is really, really hard to fragment without an
immense system like Intermail or some such.  NFS will choke before any
BigIP/LocalDirector/etc will.  Your best bet there will either have to
be Highly Creative (dual-ported drives?) or a literal backup machine 
that sees no load unless the primary keels over; in the latter case, 
periodic swaps of backup/primary would be a Good operating procedure.

Cheers,

Joe
--
Joe Provo, Manager                                   508.229.8400 x 3006
Interconnections and Technology Evaluation           Fax    508.229.2375
Technology & Network Development, RCN                <joe.provo@rcn.com>


From sage-members-owner  Sun Mar 21 11:32:50 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA10929
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:32:50 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mistake.jxh.com (mistake.jxh.com [209.157.132.34])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA10920
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:32:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mistake.jxh.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mistake.jxh.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA02029;
	Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:30:26 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903211930.LAA02029@mistake.jxh.com>
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
To: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Linux Certification 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:44:25 EST."
	<19990319094424.B25128@ineural.com> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:30:26 -0800
From: Jim Hickstein <jxh@jxh.com>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

> Anyone who hires based on a cert. and not experience gets the sysadmin
> they deserve.

Quite!

I've been a hiring manager, and I can say something about what this all looks
like from that angle.  I have been long silent in the certification debate,
and I'm going to regret restarting it now (feel free not to reply), but here,
at last, is my two cents.

A certificate is just one more thing on the resume that I can consider.
No sane manager would hire anyone based _solely_ on any certification,
without considering relevant work experience, with one exception: an
entry-level position that has some training prerequisite.  And even then,
this is only to accelerate the screening stage: in the interview you ask
questions to verify that the training "took" and to explore any relevant
experience that may not be shown on the resume.

In screening, even for entry-level jobs, one also does _not_ immediately
discard a resume that is missing the magic buzzword (for me personally,
this was "BSCS or BSEE"), _if_ it does show other relevant training or
experience.  (After 20 years, they've stopped asking me where I went to
school.)  Again, you find out in the phone screen and then the interview.

HR departments are said to be unthinking machines with no more sophistication
in this regard than grep(1), and I'm sure there are a few examples of this,
but I suspect they are a small minority, much smaller than their collective
reputation would suggest.  As a hiring manager, I have yet to have
the misfortune of dealing with one like that.  (As a prospective employee
early in my career, with no degree and little experience, I blamed my
failures on such departments, but that was really just sour grapes.)

So the detractors of certification who base their thesis on the HR-as-grep
idea, and who think that the mere existence of a new certificate means they
_must_ run out and get it (and pay the freight), or they will be unjustly
left behind in screening, don't carry of lot of weight with me.  Other
arguments might, but not that one.

Meanwhile, SAGE is proceeding (carefully, prudently, perhaps slowly but there
_is_ movement lately) to define "UNIX sysadmin" in terms that can be turned
into a certificate program.  I support this primarily for its value (we hope)
in guiding a curriculum, so people who _want to learn_ can be told how to
go about it.  I'm not going to get this certificate, myself.  I'm beyond
needing or wanting it (I suppose; we'll see what it looks like).  And I am
confident that I will not be denied a job because of that.  I will not hire
people (solely) because they have it, and I will not reject people (solely)
because they don't.  I think it will be much more valuable to the holders
than to hiring managers.  And that's fine.


From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 22 00:07:24 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA06791
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:07:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from schnitzel.bbn.com ([204.34.128.9])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA06782
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:07:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: from fulcrum (anton [138.180.5.96])
	by schnitzel.bbn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA18651;
	Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:05:33 -0100 (GMT)
Message-ID: <002e01be743a$74586d70$6005b48a@fulcrum.ecrnoc.navy.mil>
From: "Anton Kaska" <kaskaa@naples.navy.mil>
To: "Mark R. Lindsey" <mark@vielle.datasys.net>, <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Load balancing: DNS or otherwise?
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:03:19 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Have you tried the latest version of DNS / the new BIND?
As I type we are implementing a round-robin scenario similiar.  Traffic
comes into the firewalls and goes to the mail servers. The mail servers have
virtual (same) name and there are entries for 3 different IPs.  It worked in
the lab :-)  I will let you know how it goes here later this week.  Our
traffic here is not all that high (10-30,000 messages depending on what is
going on, etc although web traffic is enough for me to wish for the pre-web
days.)


Anton Kaska
akaska@bunt.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Mark R. Lindsey <mark@vielle.datasys.net>
To: sage-members@usenix.ORG <sage-members@usenix.ORG>
Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 5:45 AM
Subject: Load balancing: DNS or otherwise?


>Good Saturday/Sunday to you all --
>
>I'm contemplating implementing a load-balancing system for email and
>web services, primarily for reliability. I'd appreciate any opinions
>from you fine, sagacious people.
>
>Idea 0 ($70k):
> Install two mail servers and two web servers, with files for each
> stored on a central file server (maybe a Network Appliance box, e.g.).
> Use multiple DNS A RR's for each; e.g.
> www in a 1.1.1.50
> in a 1.1.1.51
> mail in a 1.1.1.20
> in a 1.1.1.21
> so that the connection decision is made by the client.
>
>Idea 1:
> Install two mail servers and two web servers, share files between
> between them using CODA or AFS, and possibly install a load
> balancer (something from BigIP, maybe) instead of using DNS to
> do the balancing.
>
>Of course, I'll gladly consider any permutation of these options, or
>even other options. What have you seen work?
>
>Thanks.
>
>
>



From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 22 07:25:07 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA22393
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 07:25:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from wainapanapa.sj.ptc.com (mail-sj2.ptc.com [12.7.244.21])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA22383
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 07:25:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: from chef (chef.sj.ptc.com [132.253.4.24])
	by wainapanapa.sj.ptc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA00398;
	Mon, 22 Mar 1999 07:21:35 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990322072027.00bc8d50@mail.sj.ptc.com>
X-Sender: lsnyder@mail.sj.ptc.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 07:20:27 -0800
To: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey), sage-members@usenix.org
From: "Lowell R. Snyder Jr." <lsnyder@sj.ptc.com>
Subject: Re: Load balancing: DNS or otherwise?
In-Reply-To: <199903202113.QAA03215@vielle.datasys.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

My only comment here is that the 'correct' solution depends on several items:

1.  mail server - Is this sendmail?  Or is this a POP or IMAP?  Sendmail
will work quite well with DNS.  POP is such a short-lived transaction that
it _should_ work with DNS.  For IMAP I would go with the layer 4 switch.

2.  www server - if the pages being served are static, go with DNS.  If you
are tracking state info across multiple pages (via cookies or whatever),
then go with a layer 4 switch so the entire transaction is hosted by the
same system.


At 04:13 PM 3/20/99 -0500, Mark R. Lindsey wrote:
>Good Saturday/Sunday to you all --
>
>I'm contemplating implementing a load-balancing system for email and
>web services, primarily for reliability. I'd appreciate any opinions
>from you fine, sagacious people.
>
>Idea 0 ($70k):
>	Install two mail servers and two web servers, with files for each
>	stored on a central file server (maybe a Network Appliance box, e.g.).
>	Use multiple DNS A RR's for each; e.g.
>		www	in	a	1.1.1.50
>			in	a	1.1.1.51
>		mail	in	a	1.1.1.20
>			in	a	1.1.1.21
>	so that the connection decision is made by the client.
>
>Idea 1:
>	Install two mail servers and two web servers, share files between 
>	between them using CODA or AFS, and possibly install a load 
>	balancer (something from BigIP, maybe) instead of using DNS to
>	do the balancing.
>
>Of course, I'll gladly consider any permutation of these options, or
>even other options. What have you seen work?
>
>Thanks.
>
>
>
---
Lowell R. Snyder Jr.
Sr. Systems Administrator
Parametric Technology Corp.
lsnyder@ptc.com
408-953-8643



From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 22 08:23:25 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA24851
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:23:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: from smtp2.andrew.cmu.edu (SMTP2.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.82])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA24842
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:23:20 -0800 (PST)
Received: from PC44618.WV.CC.CMU.EDU (PC44618.WV.CC.CMU.EDU [128.2.64.181]) by
	smtp2.andrew.cmu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id LAA13444;
	Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:21:10 -0500 (EST)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:21:04 -0500
From: Matt White <mwhite@cmu.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
cc: wcw@andrew.cmu.edu, ry+@cmu.edu
Subject: Load Balancing DNS
Message-ID: <2978663166.922101664@PC44618.WV.CC.CMU.EDU>
Originator-Info: login-id=; server=cyrus.andrew.cmu.edu
X-Mailer: Mulberry (Win32) [1.4.0, s/n S-100002]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

A co-worker forwarded me a message from this list regarding a question
about DNS loadbalancing.  I am not subscribed to this list, so please cc
any replies to me personally.

Ryan Troll and I have been working on DNS load balancing of machines under
Bind8.  Our load balancing is somewhat more robust than the round robin
that is included with Bind8 since we are able to dynamically add, remove or
re-order hosts in a pool.

What we do is patch named to recognize text records that begin with "LB: ".
The rest of the text record is assumed to be the file name of a DNS load
balancing pool.  This file is memory mapped in, if it has not been
previously accessed.  named acquires a lock on the file and retrieves the
first (lowest weighted) host from the pool.  After the host has been
obtained, its "Weight" value is incremented by a value specified in the
memory mapped file.

The idea behind all of this is to have a process running in the background
that periodically rebalances the pool.  We currently have a process that
does this by querying the pool hosts via SNMP and getting load information
that way.  This rebalancing process is run once a minute out of cron.

In addition to the rebalancing software, there are a small group of
applications for managing load balanced pools.  As of now, we classify the
software as 'beta', but it should be going into production real soon now.  


Matt

----------
Matt White
Network Systems Designer
Carnegie Mellon Computing Services



From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 22 10:03:38 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA28896
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:03:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: from nebula (mail@planetx-2-46.mdm.mkt.execpc.com [169.207.119.174])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA28887
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:03:30 -0800 (PST)
Received: by nebula (Postfix, from userid 0)
	id A42F08F01F; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:58:47 -0600 (CST)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by nebula (Postfix) with ESMTP for <sage-members@usenix.org>
	id 0835F8F01E; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:58:47 -0600 (CST)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:58:46 -0600 (EST)
From: "Mr. Alcourt" <alcourt@execpc.com>
X-Sender: alcourt@nebula
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: security (esp. sudo)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9903221154190.1111-100000@nebula>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

My site is finally going to be giving me the chance to update a few things
to try to improve system security.  (Newest admin on the project, the
other admins have not kept up with the past 5 years of UNIX advancements
generally).  

In order to address their concerns, I'm asking here.  Are there real
drawbacks to be aware of in using sudo or tcp wrappers?  The other admins
on the project were uncomfortable with the security of those two programs
(as well as any system overhead).  

Also, is there a good reason _not_ to upgrade to the latest version of
sendmail over the version that comes with Solaris 2.6?  

I know these questions may sound like complete no-brainers to many, but I
am mainly asking so that I can come up with good reasons to convince some
other admins who have never used any of the standard UNIX security tools.

Thanks in advance...

Mr. Alcourt     alcourt@execpc.com   http://www.execpc.com/~alcourt/
"I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death 
your right to say it." (Voltaire)



From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 22 10:17:53 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA29529
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:17:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from thor.oss.uswest.net (thor.oss.uswest.net [204.147.85.85])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA29477
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:17:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from bryana@localhost)
	by thor.oss.uswest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16234
	for sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:15:14 -0600 (CST)
	(envelope-from bryana)
Message-ID: <19990322121514.A16218@oss.uswest.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:15:14 -0600
From: Bryan Albright <bryana@uswest.net>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: hme drivers on SUN
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Hey all--

How do I get a sun solaris 2.6 box to report the ethernet settings in 
use for its hme0 driver?  And also, if I find that the settings are
not correct, how do I set them correctly?

Thanks,

Bryan
-- 
+------------------------+------------------------+
|     Bryan Albright     |    bryana@uswest.net   |
+------------------------+------------------------+
| Man who live in glass house, dress in basement. |
+-------------------------------------------------+


From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 22 11:01:05 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA01641
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:01:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mollie.jax.org (mollie.jax.org [192.233.42.5])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01585
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:00:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mollie.jax.org (mollie.jax.org [192.233.42.5])
	by mollie.jax.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA16258;
	Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:58:44 -0500 (EST)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:58:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Gregg TeHennepe <gat@jax.org>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
cc: Bryan Albright <bryana@uswest.net>
Subject: Re: hme drivers on SUN
In-Reply-To: <19990322121514.A16218@oss.uswest.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9903221345070.8034-100000@mollie.jax.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Bryan Albright wrote:

> How do I get a sun solaris 2.6 box to report the ethernet settings in 
> use for its hme0 driver?  And also, if I find that the settings are
> not correct, how do I set them correctly?

RTM ;-)

Solaris 2.6 on Sun Hardware AnswerBook
Platform Notes: The hme FastEthernet Device Driver
http://docs.sun.com:80/ab2/@LegacyTocView?toc=SUNWab_28_10%3A%2Fsafedir%2Fspace3%2Fpkgs%2Fcollections%2Fab1%2FSUNWabhdw%2Ftoc%2FENETCTRLER%3AENETCTRLER;bt=Platform+Notes%3A+The+hme+FastEthernet+Device+Driver

To list all the parameters supported by the hme driver, type:

	ndd /dev/hme \?.

To display the value of a parameter:

	ndd /dev/hme <parameter>

You can modify the parameters via ndd, or modifications to /etc/system and/or
/kernel/drv/hme.conf

Cheers  - Gregg

Gregg TeHennepe  | Unix Systems Administrator  | The Jackson Laboratory
gat@jax.org      | http://a.jax.org/~gat       | Bar Harbor, Maine  USA



From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 22 11:41:37 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03307
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:41:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail1.uunet.ca (root@mail1.uunet.ca [209.167.141.3])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03298
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:41:30 -0800 (PST)
Received: from pollux.uunet.ca ([205.150.160.111]) by mail1.uunet.ca with
	ESMTP id <215840-7181>; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:39:09 -0500
Received: (from jsellens@localhost)
	by pollux.uunet.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01067;
	Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:39:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jsellens)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:39:06 -0500
From: John Sellens <jsellens@uunet.ca>
Message-Id: <199903221939.OAA01067@pollux.uunet.ca>
To: mwhite@cmu.edu, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re:  Load Balancing DNS
Cc: ry+@cmu.edu, wcw@andrew.cmu.edu
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I trust that everyone is familiar with
  "lbnamed:  A Load Balancing Name Server in Perl"
  Roland J. Schemers, III - SunSoft, Inc.
from LISA '95?  If not, see
  http://www.usenix.org/publications/library/proceedings/lisa95/schemers.html

Works like a charm, easily extendable, no changes to bind/named, etc.

John
jsellens@uunet.ca


From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 22 14:04:45 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA08900
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:04:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from psasolar.colltech.com (psasolar.colltech.com [208.229.236.14])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA08891
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:04:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (garner@localhost)
	by psasolar.colltech.com (VER/What/1.0) with ESMTP id QAA00205;
	Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:02:24 -0600 (CST)
X-Authentication-Warning: psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com: garner owned
	process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:02:23 -0600 (CST)
From: Dean Garner <garner@colltech.com>
X-Sender: garner@psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com
To: Bryan Albright <bryana@uswest.net>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: hme drivers on SUN
In-Reply-To: <19990322121514.A16218@oss.uswest.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9903221553540.15884-100000@psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Bryan,

To check setttings on an interface in 2.6:


Use ifconfig -a  for all devices   - or

ifconfig hme0   for  the hme0 device.


To set the device address, you  can use ifconfig as well.

ifconfig hme0 x.x.x.x netmask x.x.x.x up


Also check the /etc/init.d/inetsvc file for settings.


-Dean




On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Bryan Albright wrote:

> Hey all--
> 
> How do I get a sun solaris 2.6 box to report the ethernet settings in 
> use for its hme0 driver?  And also, if I find that the settings are
> not correct, how do I set them correctly?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bryan
> -- 
> +------------------------+------------------------+
> |     Bryan Albright     |    bryana@uswest.net   |
> +------------------------+------------------------+
> | Man who live in glass house, dress in basement. |
> +-------------------------------------------------+
> 



From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 22 16:54:50 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA16457
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:54:50 -0800 (PST)
Received: from pathfinder.slab.1dc.com (pathfinder.slab.1dc.com [167.16.7.7])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA16446
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:54:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: from 2access.com (sleeper.fdcsg.1dc.com [167.16.99.104])
	by pathfinder.slab.1dc.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA23307;
	Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:36:03 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <36F6E553.56A975F4@2access.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:50:27 -0600
From: Will Kempf <wgkempf@2access.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (WinNT; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Dean Garner <garner@colltech.com>
CC: Bryan Albright <bryana@uswest.net>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: hme drivers on SUN
References: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9903221553540.15884-100000@psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

You don't want to modify /etc/init.d/inetsvc file (or its corresponding
hard-link in /etc/rc2.d/S72inetsvc):

Change the /etc/hosts file entry for the box (its hostname) to change the IP
address. Change the /etc/netmasks file for the proper mask for your IP
space. Make sure the name in /etc/hostname.hme<x> agrees with the name for
the box in /etc/hosts

e.g., to set up a box named mars with IP address 10.20.30.4 with a class C
netmask on hme0 and IP address 192.168.40.3 on hme1 with a class B netmask
do this...

/etc/hosts

10.20.30.4	mars	loghost
192.168.40.3	mars1

/etc/hostname.hme0

mars

/etc/hostname.hme1

mars1

/etc/netmasks

10.0.0.0	255.255.255.0
192.168.0.0	255.255.0.0

reboot

init 6


Dean Garner wrote:
> 
> Bryan,
> 
> To check setttings on an interface in 2.6:
> 
> Use ifconfig -a  for all devices   - or
> 
> ifconfig hme0   for  the hme0 device.
> 
> To set the device address, you  can use ifconfig as well.
> 
> ifconfig hme0 x.x.x.x netmask x.x.x.x up
> 
> Also check the /etc/init.d/inetsvc file for settings.
> 
> -Dean
> 
> On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Bryan Albright wrote:
> 
> > Hey all--
> >
> > How do I get a sun solaris 2.6 box to report the ethernet settings in
> > use for its hme0 driver?  And also, if I find that the settings are
> > not correct, how do I set them correctly?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Bryan
> > --
> > +------------------------+------------------------+
> > |     Bryan Albright     |    bryana@uswest.net   |
> > +------------------------+------------------------+
> > | Man who live in glass house, dress in basement. |
> > +-------------------------------------------------+
> >


From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 22 18:17:21 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA20258
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:17:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mistake.jxh.com (mistake.jxh.com [209.157.132.34])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA20248
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:17:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mistake.jxh.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mistake.jxh.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA02963;
	Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:14:53 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903230214.SAA02963@mistake.jxh.com>
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
To: "Mr. Alcourt" <alcourt@execpc.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: security (esp. sudo) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:58:46 CST."
	<Pine.LNX.4.05.9903221154190.1111-100000@nebula> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:14:53 -0800
From: Jim Hickstein <jxh@jxh.com>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I know of no problems at all with tcpwrappers (provided you stick with
IP addresses and not domain names), or with sudo, let alone serious problems.
Go for it.  Heavy-hitting security types might know of something evil, but
you'll still be way ahead compared to not using these programs at all.

Also, long ago I abandoned Sun's sendmail binaries in favor of building my
own from sources, and I have never regretted it.  Let go and fly.  Sendmail
8 and m4(1) are a winning combination.  (Just be sure your MAILER lines are
_after_ your FEATURE lines in the .mc file, or masquerading, for one, won't
work properly.)


From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 22 18:50:33 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA21597
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:50:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from pneumatic-tube.sgi.com (pneumatic-tube.sgi.com [204.94.214.22])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA21580
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:50:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by
	pneumatic-tube.sgi.com
	(980309.SGI.8.8.8-aspam-6.2/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id
	SAA5705967; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:46:37 -0800 (PST)
	mail_from (trant@shire.engr.sgi.com)
Received: from shire.engr.sgi.com (shire.engr.sgi.com [150.166.83.133])
	by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF)
	via ESMTP id SAA78741; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:46:36 -0800 (PST)
	mail_from (trant@shire.engr.sgi.com)
Received: (from trant@localhost) by shire.engr.sgi.com
	(980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id SAA21145;
	Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:46:18 -0800 (PST)
From: trant@shire.engr.sgi.com (Ken Trant)
Message-Id: <199903230246.SAA21145@shire.engr.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: disk partitions question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990316072745.00bbdd70@mail.sj.ptc.com> from "Lowell
	R. Snyder Jr." at "Mar 16, 99 07:27:45 am"
To: lsnyder@sj.ptc.com (Lowell R. Snyder Jr.)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:46:18 -0800 (PST)
Cc: levins@westnet.com, sage-members@usenix.org
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL35 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Tradition is a good thing, and became such for good reasons, and there 
are good reasons for multiple partitions.

 Monitoring is good, but unless you have lots of free space it will
most likely tell you about what happened instead of what might happen
soon. Applications dump core, and core files can be huge. Applications
can have unintentional side effects, such as creating lots of files or
several large files in temp directories.

 Email can fill your spool directory (incomming and/or outgoing).

 The list can be very long, depending on what applications you are
running on the box and what you are using this system for. The key is
to build your system to be as bulletproof as possible.

 Turn the question around, what is the benefit to building a single
monolythic file system. 

- Is it just to make your life easier?, that is a bad reason, all by
  itself, to change a system design.

- Will it improve performance?, I don't believe so, but it is possible
  that it might.

- Will it improve the recovery of the file system after a disk failure?, 
  I guess that could depend on your backup application/procedure. 

- Will it mean your system is more highly available?, I'd say no 
  since a single partition that fills up would give all system functions 
  heartburn. 

 I'm also a traditionalist, but I'm not so hard core about it that I
wouldn't change something if a better or more sensible choice was available.

 My $.02

  Ken

On Lowell R. Snyder Jr. Said to me:
>I've tried it both ways.  The only answer I can give is:  it depends.
>
>It depends on _exactly_ what the systems is doing:  Mail server - go ahead
>and load one big partition if you want, but make the mail spool a separate
>partition so that a mail backup doesn't kill the system.  syslog server
>would have a large /var on a separate partition.  Users  files server would
>move /home to a separate partition...
>
>Nothing is more annoying than needing to install a patch, and not being
>able to without moving filesets all over the damn place...
>
>
>
>At 08:37 AM 3/16/99 -0500, Adam and Christine Levin wrote:
>>
>>Ok, I've seen some great information pass through my system from this
>>list, so I figured I'd tap into the collective with my own brief query.
>>
>>Our company is a Sun shop.  We're currently working on setting up new
>>systems, and we're trying to find a good filesystem layout standard.  I
>>noticed at sunworld.com that Adrian Cockcroft suggested one big partition
>>for /, /usr, /var, etc.  
>>
>>Our production systems are housed at our ISP, and the folks there aren't
>>too keen on this idea because of possible filesystem fill-ups (/home,
>>/var), and greater likelihood of corruption.  
>>
>>However, with proper monitoring, fillup shouldn't be an issue.  We're
>>going to be mirroring two 9GB disks for the system disk, and we're going
>>to use UFS logging, which should minimize the corruption in the event of
>>any disk or system problems, no?
>>
>>I'm probably opening up a big can of worms, but I'll do it anyway: anyone
>>have any interesting opinions on one big slice vs. lots of little slices?
>>
>>Oh, and naturally swap would be a separate slice, along with the logging
>>slice, but that's it.
>>
>>Private mail or list followups as you deem appropriate.
>>
>>Thanks much,
>>-Adam Levin
>> Audible, Inc.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>---
>Lowell R. Snyder Jr.
>Sr. Systems Administrator
>Parametric Technology Corp.
>lsnyder@ptc.com
>408-953-8643
>


-- 
Ken Trant                    \ I think that I shall never see
trant@sgi.com                 \ A billboard lovely as a tree
ken_trant@yahoo.com            \ Indeed, unless the billboards fall
Spirit Award Loser 8yrs running \ I'll never see a tree at all
PGP KEY: 56 E1 91 84 E3 4A 44 48  CC B3 50 A6 C0 1F A6 39


From sage-members-owner  Mon Mar 22 19:57:53 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA23998
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:57:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from occam.com (host.metapath.com [207.14.52.62])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA23989
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:57:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from leonvs@localhost) by occam.com (8.9.1/8.9.1/2.0) id TAA12907;
	Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:54:59 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903230354.TAA12907@occam.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9903221154190.1111-100000@nebula>
X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 2.0b5)
Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2)
From: Leon von Stauber <leonvs@occam.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 99 19:54:58 -0800
To: "Mr. Alcourt" <alcourt@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: security (esp. sudo)
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Reply-To: leonvs@occam.com
References: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9903221154190.1111-100000@nebula>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

>In order to address their concerns, I'm asking here.  Are there real
>drawbacks to be aware of in using sudo or tcp wrappers?

tcp_wrappers: NO. Use it. Even if someone were to discover
a bug in tcp_wrappers, you're still way better off using it
than not. Besides doing things like restricting access by
name/IP, the logging is great to have.

sudo: Maybe. The one problem is that you have to trust those
w/ sudo access to keep a good lock on their passwords. You're
increasing exposure by making privileged access susceptible
to more, potentially weak, passwords.

*However*... I've been using sudo for four years, and I love
it. It's practically the first thing I put on any new box.
The logging has proven *invaluable*, esp. when people don't
just use it to get a root shell to do their work. On top of
that, it's a great convenience mechanism: you don't have to
remember the root password, and you get to keep your user
environment.

One of those examples where convenience is not the inverse of
security.

Just maintain good password security on sudo-enabled
accounts, and limit sudo access as much as possible.

>The other admins
>on the project were uncomfortable with the security of those two programs
>(as well as any system overhead).

Clearly they need to get w/ the times.

>Also, is there a good reason _not_ to upgrade to the latest version of
>sendmail over the version that comes with Solaris 2.6?

NO. At least go w/ the latest stable version (which 8.9.3
appears to be).

>I know these questions may sound like complete no-brainers to many, but I
>am mainly asking so that I can come up with good reasons to convince some
>other admins who have never used any of the standard UNIX security tools.

_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber		http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer		<leonvs@occam.com>
MSI, Senior UNIX/Security Admin		<lvonstau@metapath.com>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 23 01:59:22 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA08079
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:59:22 -0800 (PST)
Received: from draco-le1.is.macsch.com (draco.macsch.com [192.73.8.1])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA08070
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:59:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bootes.is.macsch.com (bootes.is.macsch.com [161.34.1.42])
	by draco-le1.is.macsch.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA17024;
	Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:57:06 -0800 (PST)
Received: from canismajor.is.macsch.com by bootes.is.macsch.com
	(4.1/MSCbootes.950222) id AA08713; Tue, 23 Mar 99 01:57:04 PST
Received: by canismajor.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSC.TW.SunOS.1.02)
	id AA23439; Tue, 23 Mar 99 01:57:03 PST
From: "Todd Williams" <todd@macsch.com>
Message-Id: <9903230157.ZM23437@canismajor.is.macsch.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:57:03 -0800
In-Reply-To: Gregg TeHennepe <gat@jax.org>
	"Re: hme drivers on SUN" (Mar 22, 13:58)
References: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9903221345070.8034-100000@mollie.jax.org>
X-Face: "FF3Li6k/|j$-t~Ut~7Tcrqj{YOlB#Kqid0f^}/Hq>yDnjmBRW5bJ\@EwsJ(jeU]B@?t6u'w:Z"C{8$}6kT+!sX[m.HgO{xR7q3>G-_*XwN_twn-d4&S!^or?@79qDeoMX_CS)_/lGAq9_P{9SFa5"!uAO(!,!$:{bQ^4|OAb-q{Pb'tkE^oRm_Wuecl0m4!_USKsHC/#$b_L-*$^T-Vy+_2io@[b?|Ls!_KSFXy!3bbJNxuJqm8$tQ&)090BBF-tx;
	^{)[*W,Q\>vEva?wi0FpG/]oa^*&
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95)
To: Gregg TeHennepe <gat@jax.org>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: hme drivers on SUN
Cc: Bryan Albright <bryana@uswest.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Mar 22, 13:58, Gregg TeHennepe wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Bryan Albright wrote:
> > How do I get a sun solaris 2.6 box to report the ethernet settings in 
> > use for its hme0 driver?
> 
> RTM ;-)
> To list all the parameters supported by the hme driver, type:
> 	ndd /dev/hme \?.
> To display the value of a parameter:
> 	ndd /dev/hme <parameter>

Gregg indeed gave the correct answer.

As for R'ing TFM, it's not easy to find.
Then, once you get there, you find the ridiculous process above.

You'd think that Sun would have provided something like 'showrev' to
give you the quick answer.

Some people have a hard time remembering the above commands.  Some of my
network guys just can't deal with it, and keep asking me.

So I started writing a little script to make it more idiot-friendly.
I've only spent 5 minutes on it so far.  For now, it's called "isit100Mbps" :-)

Here's a piece:
#!/bin/sh
[ `ndd /dev/hme link_status` -eq 1 ]  &&  STATUS=UP || STATUS=DOWN
[ `ndd /dev/hme link_speed`  -eq 1 ]  &&  SPEED=100 || SPEED=10
[ `ndd /dev/hme link_mode`   -eq 1 ]  &&  MODE=FULL || MODE=HALF
echo "ethernet interface is ${STATUS} , running ${SPEED} Mbps ${MODE} duplex"

Note that you must be root, or else you will get the very intuitive error
message:  couldn't push module 'hme', No such device or address

Anyway, that's what I've resorted to.  I should get around to making the
script deal with the many other settings and possibilities.

This pet peeve of mine is a common theme with Sun.  There should be an easy
way to tell how much memory and what type of CPU a machine is, too.  Sure,
it's not that hard, but it should be REALLY easy, and you shouldn't have to
be root....or reboot.

If anyone says there's an easy way to tell between a Sparc20 model 50 and
a Sparc20 model 51, for example, let me know.  It's hard enough to distinguish
the 50's from the model 71's.  Yes, I know about fpversion and sysinfo.

Todd Williams                     Manager, Computer and Communication Systems
MacNeal-Schwendler Corp. ("MSC"),  815 Colorado Blvd.,  Los Angeles, CA   90041
todd.williams@macsch.com          (323)259-4973          http://www.macsch.com/
geek  n. : a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usu.
includes biting the head off a live chicken or snake  -Webster's New Collegiate


From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 23 06:37:30 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA17982
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:37:30 -0800 (PST)
Received: from kolo.teamwalters.org (kolo.teamwalters.org [205.147.235.188])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA17964
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:37:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost by kolo.teamwalters.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id
	JAA25249; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:35:03 -0500 (EST)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:35:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Scott Walters <scott@PacketPushers.com>
X-Sender: scott@kolo.teamwalters.org
To: Todd Williams <todd@macsch.com>
cc: Gregg TeHennepe <gat@jax.org>, sage-members@usenix.org,
	Bryan Albright <bryana@uswest.net>
Subject: Re: hme drivers on SUN
In-Reply-To: <9903230157.ZM23437@canismajor.is.macsch.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990323092923.25246A-100000@kolo.teamwalters.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Todd Williams wrote:

> As for R'ing TFM, it's not easy to find.
> Then, once you get there, you find the ridiculous process above.

agreed

> So I started writing a little script to make it more idiot-friendly.
> I've only spent 5 minutes on it so far.  For now, it's called "isit100Mbps" :-)

> Anyway, that's what I've resorted to.  I should get around to making the
> script deal with the many other settings and possibilities.

here's one i threw together that has worked out well on numerous occasions
(tcpListenDrop's are a bad thing), i'm not a great shell programmer (i.e.
theres probably a more elgant way to do this) but have managed a few
useful scripts on occasion:

######################################################
#!/bin/sh

# gettcp
# this program queries the current kernel TCP settings 

echo
echo
echo "`hostname` `date`"
echo
echo "TCP PARAMETER: VALUE"
echo "--------------------"

for tcp in `/usr/sbin/ndd /dev/tcp \? | /usr/bin/grep -v "read only" |
/usr/bin/
awk '{print $1}' `
#for tcp in `/usr/sbin/ndd /dev/tcp \? | awk '{print $1}' `
do
        echo "$tcp: \c";/usr/sbin/ndd /dev/tcp $tcp
done

######################################################3


--
Scott Walters
-PacketPusher

"The world speaks IP"



From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 23 08:42:00 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA24160
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:42:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: from smtp2.andrew.cmu.edu (SMTP2.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.82])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA24151
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:41:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from DWAYNE.NT.CMU.EDU (DWAYNE.NET.CMU.EDU [128.2.6.175]) by
	smtp2.andrew.cmu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id LAA15036;
	Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:39:38 -0500 (EST)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:39:47 -0500
From: Ryan Troll <ryan+@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: John Sellens <jsellens@uunet.ca>, mwhite@cmu.edu, sage-members@usenix.org
cc: wcw@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re:  Load Balancing DNS
Message-ID: <3066186582.922189187@DWAYNE.NT.CMU.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <199903221939.OAA01067@pollux.uunet.ca>
Originator-Info: login-token=Mulberry:01E9xTioVVtPglVMMHURuD56Y8zreeEMyAUYHvSVw=;
	token_authority=postmaster@andrew.cmu.edu
X-Mailer: Mulberry (Win32) [1.4.1, s/n S-100002]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

When we started looking at a replacement for our DNS loadbalancing
mechanism, I looked at the lbnamed software.  While it did work, I had a
few concerns with it, which made me pursue the solution we are working on
now.

You are correct, as lbnamed stands, it works very well.  I got it running
here, and everything worked.  My following comments should in no way make
somebody think that lbnamed is insufficient or inadequate.  If what it does
now is what you want, it does it well, and you should use it.  However, we
have other plans for the DNS and how loadbalancing information is fetched.

Our first issue with lbnamed was performance when DNSSec is in place.  When
we decide to roll out DNSSec, lbnamed will need to be modified to sign all
of the records in its responses.  Due to the way lbnamed is setup, the
actual response RRs are not sitting in memory and just 'appended' to the
response packet, but are actually generated based on the next name in the
loadbalanced list.  Given this, the lbnamed script would have to be
modified to actually sign the generated RR before being sent.  On the other
hand, the mechanism we have come up with will allow us to have the external
update process sign records as needed, and place the SIGs in the
loadbalanced pool.    (Our loadbalanced list contains the actual RRs to put
into the DNS response.)  Then, the named process will insert the
appropriate CNAME record, as well as the associated SIG record.  No signing
is done by a process that is answering DNS queries.

Our next concern was with the security of the actual transaction between
lbnamed and the host to be balanced.  Right now, it uses a small, short,
fast, and simple mechanism for host<->lbnamed communication.  But in an
environment such as ours, where students may decide to launch a DOS attack
by spoofing values and forcing everybody to one host, we'd like something a
little more secure.  If we were to digitally sign the host updates, we
could have the external lbnamed collection program actually fetch the
response, check the signature, and update the tables accordingly, without
any performance difference in the actual DNS response process.  Which is
good.  However, the actual signature verification of that many packets in
Perl could take quite a bit of time.  By using a C based version of the
collection agents, performance should be a little better.

In the long-term, the next thing we were thinking about would be the use of
multicast to reduce the polling done by our loadbalancing servers.  We
currently want to have the loadbalanced zone spread across multiple
nameservers, so that there is no service outage if one dies.  Rather than
have all of our DNS servers poll each of the loadbalanced hosts, we were
thinking about using a multicast mechanism, and turning the lbnamed process
into a completely passive mechanism, that takes care of listening for
updates, and removing hosts that are not available after X poll periods.
(This also has the nice side effect of having your local DNS server only
let you know about what is available to you based on network topology and
possible network outages.)  The introduction of multicast and digital
signatures to the lbnamed collection process would require a bunch of work,
and may result in the entire client/server mechanism being rewritten.

If it was rewritten, the similarity between the new mechanism, and lbnamed,
is the perl process, which suffers from the signature stuff.  By merging
the loadbalancing stuff into BIND, we should be able to pick up any changes
that are made to the protocol, and any future enhancements, without needing
to make any major changes to our patch.  (The patch itself is really small.)


Like I said originally, lbnamed is great, and does do everything well.
This should not be taken as a message talking about how bad lbnamed is, as
it isn't bad at all.  Lbnamed did not appear to fit the future of DNS
loadbalancing in our environment, and we looked at implementing something a
little different.  The overall architecture is almost identical now, but it
is better setup to handle security and multicast technologies.



-Ryan




From sage-members-owner  Tue Mar 23 10:25:17 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA29320
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:25:17 -0800 (PST)
Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [129.188.136.102])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA29284
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:24:58 -0800 (PST)
Received: [from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by
	motgate2.mot.com (MOT-motgate2 1.0) with ESMTP id MAA25312 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:24:17 -0600 (CST)]
Received: [from m-az33-r2.mot.com (m-az33-r2.mot.com [129.188.127.12]) by
	mothost.mot.com (MOT-mothost 2.0) with ESMTP id MAA22355 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:22:49 -0600 (CST)]
Received: from plantation.comm.mot.com by m-az33-r2.mot.com with ESMTP for
	sage-members@usenix.ORG; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:22:42 -0700
Received: from plhp002.comm.mot.com ([145.2.148.3]) by plnt014.comm.mot.com
	with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version
	5.5.2232.9) id G3SZDRLH; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:22:52 -0500
Received: from plhp049.comm.mot.com (brownmic@plhp049b [145.2.149.44])
	by plhp002.comm.mot.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id
	NAA09993
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:22:34 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from brownmic@localhost) by plhp049.comm.mot.com (8.8.6
	(PHNE_17135)/8.7.3) id NAA14523 for sage-members@usenix.ORG;
	Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:22:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Rogero Brown <brownmic@plhp002.comm.mot.com>
Message-Id: <199903231822.NAA14523@plhp049.comm.mot.com>
Subject: Re: Linux Certification 
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:22:32 EST
In-Reply-To: <199903211930.LAA02029@mistake.jxh.com>;
	from "Jim Hickstein" at Mar 21, 99 11:30 am
X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 212.4]
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

> 
> > Anyone who hires based on a cert. and not experience gets the sysadmin
> > they deserve.
> 
> Quite!
> 
> I've been a hiring manager, and I can say something about what this all looks
> like from that angle.  I have been long silent in the certification debate,
> and I'm going to regret restarting it now (feel free not to reply), but here,
> at last, is my two cents.
> 
> A certificate is just one more thing on the resume that I can consider.
> No sane manager would hire anyone based _solely_ on any certification,
> without considering relevant work experience, with one exception: an
> entry-level position that has some training prerequisite.  And even then,
> this is only to accelerate the screening stage: in the interview you ask
> questions to verify that the training "took" and to explore any relevant
> experience that may not be shown on the resume.
> 
> In screening, even for entry-level jobs, one also does _not_ immediately
> discard a resume that is missing the magic buzzword (for me personally,
> this was "BSCS or BSEE"), _if_ it does show other relevant training or
> experience.  (After 20 years, they've stopped asking me where I went to
> school.)  Again, you find out in the phone screen and then the interview.
>

True.  Unfortunatly there are too many out there with the attitude that if
the person doesn't have the certification, they will not look at the resume,
irregardless of experience.  Personally, I think that is a serious mistake.
In other computer related jobs, a major requirement is usually something like
'Bachelor degree OR x-years of experience', which makes since.  However, from
what I have heard from some is that in the area of Novell and NT administration,
too often it is CNE/MCSE or nothing.
 
> So the detractors of certification who base their thesis on the HR-as-grep
> idea, and who think that the mere existence of a new certificate means they
> _must_ run out and get it (and pay the freight), or they will be unjustly
> left behind in screening, don't carry of lot of weight with me.  Other
> arguments might, but not that one.
>

The detractors of certification use this as ONE of their reasons for being
opposed to certification.  And frankly there are too many hiring people out
there that have bought into certification being a 'silver bullet' for 
knowledge/experience that even college degrees don't seem to get.  And they
aren't the only ones to buy into this.

But there are other reasons as well.  One is the problem of 'paper 
certifications', those people who just go to the cert training courses, pass
the tests, and get[or expect to get] hired without any real world experience.
The certification people claim that this is impossible, but many have found
such people.  They do exist.  Related to this is a problem with the attitudes
of those people who go thru the training/certification.  Too many have the 
attitude that having done so instantly makes them a sysadmin, due the pay and
respect of admins with many years of experience.  I get this at work where 
these sorts of people come to me demanding to be given [NT] Domain Admin access
based on the fact they have taken the classes or passed the tests, despite the
fact that their job doesn't require them to have this level of access.  They
think they deserve it because of the training/test/cert!  They don't seem to
grasp the fact that such training is find for learning the 'hows' of 
system administration, but not the 'what' or 'whys'. 
have encourted these people 

In addition to 'hiring managers' and many admins, there are others who have
bought into the promise of certification.  I have a friend who is working on
completing several of these certifications.  His employer is giving him bonuses
when he finishes them?  Why?  Because when he is sent out to clients to setup
or fix their systems, they get a warm fuzzy in the fact they are getting a
'certified support person' taking care of them, then just some guy coming out.
[irregardless of his experience/knowledge].  That is what these sort of people
like.
 
> Meanwhile, SAGE is proceeding (carefully, prudently, perhaps slowly but there
> _is_ movement lately) to define "UNIX sysadmin" in terms that can be turned
> into a certificate program.  I support this primarily for its value (we hope)
> in guiding a curriculum, so people who _want to learn_ can be told how to
> go about it.  I'm not going to get this certificate, myself.  I'm beyond
> needing or wanting it (I suppose; we'll see what it looks like).  And I am
> confident that I will not be denied a job because of that.  I will not hire
> people (solely) because they have it, and I will not reject people (solely)
> because they don't.  I think it will be much more valuable to the holders
> than to hiring managers.  And that's fine.
> 

This too, it my attitude about the whole thing.  This is what guides me when
I interview people for sysadmin positions here, and why I am involved in the
SAGE certification work as part of the advisory council.  It has its place,
and it can be of value, if it is used correctly.

p.s. according to the first issue of a new Linux magazine, there are not just
2 Linux certification efforts going on, but 4!!  Sorry, don't recall the other
two as the issue it at home.


--
Michael Rogero Brown                  |  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.  
Unix/NT Systems Support               |   Any opinions expressed are my own
Motorola, CGISS/CE                    |   and do not reflect the opinions of
email: emb021@email.mot.com           |   Motorola.


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 26 05:08:21 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA22313
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:08:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: from relay.nswc.navy.mil (relay.nswc.navy.mil [128.38.1.41])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA22304
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:08:13 -0800 (PST)
Received: from luxor.nswc.navy.mil (luxor.nswc.navy.mil [128.38.165.100])
	by relay.nswc.navy.mil (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24459
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:06:28 -0500 (EST)
Received: by luxor.nswc.navy.mil with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
	id <HG0SBGPD>; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:09:02 -0500
Message-ID: <31A48D25E618D211820700A0C9B4143D46E00C@luxor.nswc.navy.mil>
From: "Petersen, Dwight" <dpeters@nswc.navy.mil>
To: "'sage-members@usenix.ORG'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: RE: sage-members-digest V2 #44
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:09:00 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


		
		Dear Matt & others
		I apologize in advance for chewing up bandwith with mere
philosophy.  But  every once in a while something comes across my email that
just strikes a chord, and by some sort of harmonic resonance I feel
compelled to respond.
		Matt, dear fellow, you are taking life way too seriously.
An email message was lost!!  Oh dear lord, when I look at the crap that come
across my email, I should think you would count this a blessing.  Not set
you off looking for a bullet proof email server.  You need some perspective.
I suggest that you research the following thoroughly  www.iinet.net.au/~bofh
<http://www.iinet.net.au/~bofh> .  Then kick back, write a script that
randomly erases every 37th email that arrives at you server and finally,
recite the following mantra for ten minutes daily.  "TCP/IP is not a
reliable protocol".
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

		From: Matt Harrington <matt@msg.ucsf.edu>
		Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:03:28 -0800 (PST)
		Subject: setting up a mail server

		I have a problem with my current email server.  Home
directories are
		stored on another machine and mounted via NFS.  Hardware
failures and
		power outages make our computing environment unreliable.  I
have my email
		forwarded to user@yahoo.com in addition to keeping a local
copy.  I once
		received a message on yahoo which never showed up in my
local mailbox.
		This happened right as the mail server was rebooting.  The
danger is that
		an incoming message might be lost during one of these
frequent crashes.

		Some questions:
		  Should I keep home directories local to the mail server?
		  Should I prevent sendmail from checking .forward so that
the 
			home directories are never mounted?
		  What can I do to have a bullet-proof mail server?

		Current setup:
		  SGI Indy 150MHz R5000
		  300 users
		  10baseT NIC
		  Irix 6.5.1m
		  standard Irix sendmail (v8.8.8)
		  home directories exported from a SGI Power Challenge over
FDDI
			through a FDDI-Ethernet bridge.

		- ---matt




		------------------------------

		End of sage-members-digest V2 #44
		*********************************

		To unsubscribe from sage-members-digest, send the command:

		   unsubscribe sage-members-digest

		in the body of a message to "Majordomo@usenix.org".  If you
want
		to unsubscribe something other than the account the mail is
coming from,
		such as a local redistribution list, then append that
address to the
		"unsubscribe" command; for example, to unsubscribe
"local-sage-members-digest":

		   unsubscribe sage-members-digest
local-sage-members-digest@your.domain.net


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 26 06:24:02 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA25282
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:24:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA25273
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:23:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mcs.anl.gov (tananda.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.64]) by
	antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP
	id IAA23029; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:21:40 -0600
Message-Id: <199903261421.IAA23029@antares.mcs.anl.gov>
To: "Petersen, Dwight" <dpeters@nswc.navy.mil>
cc: matt@msg.ucsf.edu, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: setting up a mail server
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:09:00 EST."
	<31A48D25E618D211820700A0C9B4143D46E00C@luxor.nswc.navy.mil> 
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:21:39 -0600
From: Gene Rackow <rackow@mcs.anl.gov>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Dwight,
I can see Matt's concern.  For some sites, email is rather important, 
and not being able to depend upon it is a problem.  Considering the
fact that Matt noticed that a message did not get delivered may be
an indication of a much larger problem.  How many others didn't
get noticed?  I used Matt's technique in determining how reliable
a different mail server was.  According to the people at that site,
there was not a problem, but I and a couple of others were able to
prove to them they were loosing about .5% of what should have been
delivered.  They had some custom "aliases" system that would not
work properly while it was updating, and any mail delivered during
that time would either bounce or be silently dropped.  The bounces
could be dealt with, but it was a rather high rate for a sites mail
service. The droppage was not acceptable.  Is this really just
the tip of the iceberg?

Matt,
  Having NFS on your mail server in unreliable manner will cause you
lots of problem, as you are seeing.  Several things can be done to 
improve it, but there isn't a solid solution if servers can/will crash.

The first suggestion would be to give yourself some cleaner power.
Adding a UPS will not only allow you to ride out some of the power
bumps, but will also result in some much better hardware reliability.
I worked on a system that was loosing several disk drives per week
and we could not determine why.  It wasn't until we came in with a 
power-line analizer that pointed out there was noise in the 120 volt
stuff.  Those spikes were effecting the disks, but not the machine.
Adding a rather large UPS just for the filtering capabilites almost
completely eliminated the disk failures.  There were several hundred
drives, so failures were expected.

Next, map out the boot process.  The vendor supplied methods for
booting a system tend to be ugly.  Moving the starting of sendmail
to be the nearly the last thing that happens may solve some of your
problem as well.  (is the current startup ..., sendmail, ..., nfs mount,...)
Notice the ugly race condition?

Reconfiguring sendmail so as to not look in home directories MAY help
you.  The problem is that people EXPECT to find the .forward file in
their home directory.  IF you move that to another place, your users
will need to learn what to do.  This is not something people will accept
easily.  Having something that gathers .forwards into another directory
will help, but the common way people do things will be to install a .forward,
then immediately send a message to test it.  Even a 5 minute delay on
the .forward checker will confuse them.

--Gene






"Petersen, Dwight" made the following keystrokes:
 >
 >		
 >		Dear Matt & others
 >		I apologize in advance for chewing up bandwith with mere
 >philosophy.  But  every once in a while something comes across my email that
 >just strikes a chord, and by some sort of harmonic resonance I feel
 >compelled to respond.
 >		Matt, dear fellow, you are taking life way too seriously.
 >An email message was lost!!  Oh dear lord, when I look at the crap that come
 >across my email, I should think you would count this a blessing.  Not set
 >you off looking for a bullet proof email server.  You need some perspective.
 >I suggest that you research the following thoroughly  www.iinet.net.au/~bofh
 ><http://www.iinet.net.au/~bofh> .  Then kick back, write a script that
 >randomly erases every 37th email that arrives at you server and finally,
 >recite the following mantra for ten minutes daily.  "TCP/IP is not a
 >reliable protocol".
 >	
 >----------------------------------------------------------------------
 >
 >		From: Matt Harrington <matt@msg.ucsf.edu>
 >		Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:03:28 -0800 (PST)
 >		Subject: setting up a mail server
 >
 >		I have a problem with my current email server.  Home
 >directories are
 >		stored on another machine and mounted via NFS.  Hardware
 >failures and
 >		power outages make our computing environment unreliable.  I
 >have my email
 >		forwarded to user@yahoo.com in addition to keeping a local
 >copy.  I once
 >		received a message on yahoo which never showed up in my
 >local mailbox.
 >		This happened right as the mail server was rebooting.  The
 >danger is that
 >		an incoming message might be lost during one of these
 >frequent crashes.
 >
 >		Some questions:
 >		  Should I keep home directories local to the mail server?
 >		  Should I prevent sendmail from checking .forward so that
 >the 
 >			home directories are never mounted?
 >		  What can I do to have a bullet-proof mail server?
 >
 >		Current setup:
 >		  SGI Indy 150MHz R5000
 >		  300 users
 >		  10baseT NIC
 >		  Irix 6.5.1m
 >		  standard Irix sendmail (v8.8.8)
 >		  home directories exported from a SGI Power Challenge over
 >FDDI
 >			through a FDDI-Ethernet bridge.
 >
 >		- ---matt
 >


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 26 06:45:49 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA26228
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:45:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ocee.groupsys.com (ocee.groupsys.com [155.229.202.35])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA26219
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:45:43 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ocee.groupsys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by ocee.groupsys.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA17077;
	Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:43:34 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199903261443.JAA17077@ocee.groupsys.com>
To: "Petersen, Dwight" <dpeters@nswc.navy.mil>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: setting up a mail server
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:09:00 EST."
	<31A48D25E618D211820700A0C9B4143D46E00C@luxor.nswc.navy.mil> 
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:43:33 -0500
From: William LeFebvre <wnl@groupsys.com>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Mr. Peterson wrote:
> 		I apologize in advance for chewing up bandwith with mere
> philosophy.  But  every once in a while something comes across my email that
> just strikes a chord, and by some sort of harmonic resonance I feel
> compelled to respond.

How unfortunate.

> 		Matt, dear fellow, you are taking life way too seriously.
> An email message was lost!!  Oh dear lord, when I look at the crap that come
> across my email, I should think you would count this a blessing.  

Perhaps when it is his own he shouldn't care so much.  But assuming
that he has responsibility for mail delivery for everyone else at his
location (reasonable assumption considering this is the "SAGE" list
after all), he has a legitimate concern.  If *he* lost a message, then
how many more are getting lost?  He has the responsibility for running
the system as best he can.  Knowing of a problem like this and taking
no steps to fixing it is, in my mind, careless and unprofessional.

What is he supposed to do when users start complaining that an
inportant mail message was never received?  Tell them "don't take life
so seriously.  It was only a mail message."??  I don't think so.

> recite the following mantra for ten minutes daily.  "TCP/IP is not a
> reliable protocol".

Actually, you're wrong.  TCP is considered a "reliable protocol"
by the strict technical definition of the term.


				William LeFebvre
				Group sys Consulting
				<wnl@groupsys.com>
				+1 770 813 3224


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 26 07:50:24 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA29054
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:50:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from firefly.cisco.com (firefly.cisco.com [171.69.63.22])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA29045
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:50:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: from cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.cisco.com
	(8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id HAA02337 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:47:42 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903261547.HAA02337@firefly.cisco.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: setting up a mail server 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:43:33 EST."
	<199903261443.JAA17077@ocee.groupsys.com> 
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:47:42 -0800
From: "Kenneth E. Paul" <kenny@cisco.com>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


->Mr. Peterson wrote:
->> 		I apologize in advance for chewing up bandwith with mere
->> philosophy.  But  every once in a while something comes across my email tha
t
->> just strikes a chord, and by some sort of harmonic resonance I feel
->> compelled to respond.

OK, I've already seen two messages responding to Dwight's message.

Before there are any more folks responding to his message, just 
ask yourself "Who in their right mind would quote the BOFH
as a reference if he wasn't joking?"

Regards,        Kenny Paul                                  
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenneth E. Paul, Sr. Systems Administrator                   kenny@cisco.com
Software Management & Delivery Systems                          408-526-5210
Cisco Systems, Inc. 100 W. Tasman Dr. M-2, San Jose CA, 95134
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's a shame that our kids are dumb but our bombs are smart." -Danny Elfman



From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 26 08:22:03 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA00778
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:22:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from minerva.psc.edu (minerva.psc.edu [128.182.62.121])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00758
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:21:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (ecf@localhost) by minerva.psc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with
	SMTP id LAA07567 for <sage-members@usenix.org>;
	Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:19:19 -0500
Message-Id: <199903261619.LAA07567@minerva.psc.edu>
X-Authentication-Warning: minerva.psc.edu: ecf@localhost didn't use HELO
	protocol
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97
To: "'sage-members@usenix.ORG'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: sage-members-digest V2 #44 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:09:00 EST."
	<31A48D25E618D211820700A0C9B4143D46E00C@luxor.nswc.navy.mil> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:19:19 -0500
From: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Respectfully, Mr. Peterson, I must disagree.  I believe that in this day the
stability of our email server(s) can be and should be more reliable than the US
Mail.  Businesses and Universities alike (as well as the Government!) often
rely on email for their day-to-day business.

Surely nothing is guaranteed but we can do what we can to our best.

For Mr. Harrington, for what it's worth: I am no email expert, but I suggest
making your mail _server_ not the place where mail will reside. This way if the
spool director{y,ies} are unavailable the mail server can retain the mail until
stable delivery can be made.	Try to use the most stable hardware & OS you can,
and make sure to have a hot-swappable spare around Just In Case.

Good luck.

----------------------------------------------------------------
     ecf@psc.edu     Esther Filderman    moose+@cmu.edu
           Senior System Mangler & News Dominatrix  
               Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center




From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 26 08:58:53 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA02563
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:58:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail.sonytel.be (mail.sonytel.be [193.74.243.200])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA02554
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:58:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from clover.sonytel.be (clover.sonytel.be [193.74.243.198])
	by mail.sonytel.be (8.9.0/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA25709;
	Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:56:32 +0100 (MET)
From: Wim Peeters <wim@sonycom.com>
Received: (from wim@localhost) by clover.sonytel.be (8.9.0/8.8.6) id RAA19590;
	Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:56:31 +0100 (MET)
Message-Id: <199903261656.RAA19590@clover.sonytel.be>
Subject: Re: sage-members-digest V2 #44
In-Reply-To: <31A48D25E618D211820700A0C9B4143D46E00C@luxor.nswc.navy.mil> from
	"Petersen, Dwight" at "Mar 26, 99 08:09:00 am"
To: dpeters@nswc.navy.mil (Petersen Dwight)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:56:30 +0100 (MET)
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Dwight

>		Dear Matt & others
...<blabla deleted>...

>		Matt, dear fellow, you are taking life way too seriously.
>An email message was lost!!  Oh dear lord, when I look at the crap that come
>across my email, I should think you would count this a blessing.  Not set
>you off looking for a bullet proof email server.  You need some perspective.
>I suggest that you research the following thoroughly  www.iinet.net.au/~bofh
><http://www.iinet.net.au/~bofh> .  Then kick back, write a script that
>randomly erases every 37th email that arrives at you server and finally,
>recite the following mantra for ten minutes daily.

I can't believe I'm reading this on this list.

Loosing E-mail can be very harmfull for your company/users,
more and more people rely on it for their day to day bussiness.
So if you're a sysadmin, you should take this serious after all it's
our job to give them a reliable set-up. 

But ok, bofh gives us a reason to survive sysadmin...

> "TCP/IP is not a reliable protocol".

Hmm, well it's one of the best we can have..isn't it?

-- 
Wim Peeters     

System Manager
SONY  Platform Software Development Center Brussels (PSDC-B)
SONY  Digital Network Solutions Europe Brussels     (DNSE-B)
Sint Stevens Woluwestraat 55 (Rue de Woluwe-Saint-Etienne)
1130 Brussel (Bruxelles), Belgium
Telephone: +32 2 724 86 42 Telefax: +32 2 726 26 86
e-mail: Wim.Peeters@sonycom.com


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 26 10:16:04 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA06464
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:16:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail.inu.net (downtown.inu.net [208.129.164.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA06447
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:15:53 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903261815.KAA06447@usenix.ORG>
Received: from nexttown [208.129.164.20] by mail.inu.net
	(SMTPD32-4.06) id ADCB3C2601A2; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:11:23 CST
X-Sender: bobmartin@downtown.inu.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:13:44 -0600
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Bob Martin <BobMartin@inu.net>
Subject: Re: setting up a mail server
In-Reply-To: <199903261443.JAA17077@ocee.groupsys.com>
References: <Your message of "Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:09:00 EST."
	<31A48D25E618D211820700A0C9B4143D46E00C@luxor.nswc.navy.mil>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Matt, 
I based on our experience here,  Gene is dead on. A good UPS not only
protects you from outages, but keeps your power clean. It has a huge effect
on system performance. 

We bounce stuff all over the network. The buzz term is distributed
computing. Just make sure your network starts before your programs. Hard
mounting the NFS drives may also help.


From sage-members-owner  Fri Mar 26 12:07:22 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA12197
	for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:07:22 -0800 (PST)
Received: from inm.sentex.ca (r00t@inm.sentex.ca [205.211.164.96])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12181
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:07:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: from admin3.ineural.com (gdunn@admin3.ineural.com [192.168.0.71])
	by inm.sentex.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA25878
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:05:02 -0500
Received: (from gdunn@localhost)
	by admin3.ineural.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15877
	for sage-members@usenix.ORG; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:05:01 -0500
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:05:00 -0500
From: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: sage-members-digest V2 #44
Message-ID: <19990326150500.A15121@ineural.com>
References: <31A48D25E618D211820700A0C9B4143D46E00C@luxor.nswc.navy.mil>
	<199903261656.RAA19590@clover.sonytel.be>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i
In-Reply-To: <199903261656.RAA19590@clover.sonytel.be>;
	from Wim Peeters on Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 05:56:30PM +0100
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 05:56:30PM +0100, Wim Peeters wrote:
> Dwight
> 
> >		Dear Matt & others
> ...<blabla deleted>...
> 
> >		Matt, dear fellow, you are taking life way too seriously.
> >An email message was lost!!  Oh dear lord, when I look at the crap that come
> >across my email, I should think you would count this a blessing.  Not set
> >you off looking for a bullet proof email server.  You need some perspective.
> >I suggest that you research the following thoroughly  www.iinet.net.au/~bofh
> ><http://www.iinet.net.au/~bofh> .  Then kick back, write a script that
> >randomly erases every 37th email that arrives at you server and finally,
> >recite the following mantra for ten minutes daily.
> 
> I can't believe I'm reading this on this list.

Didn't think I'd get the chance to drag this out again this early ...
(updated for your viewing pleasure, now with nroff!)

curl http://www.gawth.com/~gdunn/temp/Id-31337 | nroff -ms - |more

> > "TCP/IP is not a reliable protocol".
> 
> Hmm, well it's one of the best we can have..isn't it?

<UI class="hopefully not">TCP/IP is two protocols.</UI>[0]

HTH, HAND, TGIF,
Graham

[0] See alt.sysadmin.recovery[1]
[1] Which I've been reading too much of lately.


-- 
   gdunn@ineural.com	 Graham Dunn         || ||| | ||| |||| | |||| | 
Systems Administrator - International Neural Machines Inc. - Waterloo, ON
    Key fingerprint = 3F 56 12 9B 8A E1 77 CB  F0 62 94 B0 93 06 1E 88


From sage-members-owner  Sun Mar 28 17:39:52 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA22571
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 17:39:52 -0800 (PST)
Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA22562
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 17:39:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: by hustle.rahul.net with UUCP id AA16510
	(5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for sage-members@usenix.org);
	Sun, 28 Mar 1999 17:37:41 -0800
Received: from canopus.starshine.org (canopus.starshine.org [192.168.64.3])
	by antares.starshine.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA30633;
	Sun, 28 Mar 1999 17:19:52 -0800
Received: from canopus.starshine.org (jimd@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by canopus.starshine.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15524;
	Mon, 29 Mar 1999 01:19:51 -0800
Message-Id: <199903290919.BAA15524@canopus.starshine.org>
To: tip <tip@enteract.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
X-Mailer: MH 8.6.3
Subject: Re: Linux Certification 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.990318223408.1868A-100000@adam.enteract.com> 
	Message Apparently From tip <tip@enteract.com> 
	Dated Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:43:00 CST.
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 01:19:45 -0800
From: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

 
> On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, John Sechrest wrote:
 
>> 	There is a linux certification process underway. 
 
> how utterly inane. by coming up with the "concept" of linux "certification"
> we have come to two conclusions:
 
> 1) "wow, let's have certification for everything, including an os that isn't
>    taken seriously in a production environment." MUST there be a
>    certification for EVERYTHING? how many different unix certifications are
>    there? how many networking certifications?
>    do we really (i mean, really) need ANOTHER one?

	On what criteria to you base your assertion that Linux
	is not "taken seriously in a production environment?" 

	Have you taken a poll of SAGE members?  At a BayLISA meeting
	where I was speaking I did ask how many of the people
	present were running Linux on some of their servers.  I'd
	say that well over 90% of the hands went up (it looked like
	almost all of them to me).  This is a group that is
	comprised almost exclusively of full-time professional
	system administrators in production environments.

	Anecdotal evidence from the last several USENIX events that
	I've attended suggest similar numbers nationwide.

	A survey by Miller-Freeman (publishers of UnixReview and 
	SysAdmin Magazine, among others) suggests that well over
	60% of their readership was using Linux in some production
	roles back in '97 (about two years ago).  That number has
	almost certainly grown.

	I'm not saying that these are reliable metrics.  I'm just
	suggesting that you might want to consider your sources
	(perhaps even CITE them) when you draw an obviously 
	controversial conclusion from some uncited statistics.

	I chose this particular set of examples because they are
	note limited to SAGE membership but are heavily weighted
	towards large groups of professional UNIX system administrators.
 
>    the concept of certification has really been beat into the ground and
>    sooner or later (probably has already) certification will mean nothing.
>    well, maybe except for the CCIE.

	Fine.  You don't like certification and the rest of the 
	list is tired of hearing about it.  So, let's drop that.
 
> 2) linux has become more and more popular as the days go on; however, if you
>    notice: most opponents of linux are stalwart and experienced 
>    administrators and programmers. it's the general (READ: END
>    USER) public that has succumbed to the rants and raves of END
>    USER publications (ie, wired, yahoo). it's
>    really more of an alternative to microsoft products, but certainly NOT
>    an alternative to solaris, hp-ux, or *bsd.

	Again I have no idea where you get your statistics.
	My experience suggests that "most" opponents of Linux (and 
	other forms of UNIX) have been managemers and IT directors.
	Linux has been "snuck in the back door" at most of the
	corporate and government sites where it can be found.

	That is totally irrelevant to the original post --- inviting
	us "stalwart and experienced administrators and programers"
	to contribute to their effort.

	I'll be involved in the Linux cert effort (appropriate
	since I've been providing published Linux support for years ---
	including and since I work for a company that specialize
	in the field).

	I personally wouldn't have even bother to send the 
	original message to the sage-members list.  I would have
	predicted the ensuing flammage and avoided it.

	After years of listening to the SAGE flamage on the topic
	I've just abandonned any hope that SAGE will "get its act
	together" on this issue.  SAGE's opinion on the subject
	will be completely irrelevant to the Linux community since
	SAGE as an organization will be inneffective in providing
	any input.

	Individual SAGE members may have considerable influence 
	on this process, since they can provide their input as
	described in the original message.  Linux is fundamentally
	a meritocracy.  If you suggestions are presented in a 
	reasonable way then they will be judged on their merits.
	
 
>    thus, let it be ... do we really need "certification"?
> goddam.

	You don't need Linux certification since *you* clearly
	don't consider Linux to be useful to your production
	services.  SAGE is far to factious to come to any
	conclusion about what "we" need.

	Linux certification WILL happen.  It might not involve
	me, this group, SAGE, USENIX, UNIForum or any other group
	or organization that we've ever heard of --- but it WILL
	happen.

	In all likelihood Linux will become the dominant form of
	UNIX for the entire industry and it's certification process
	will be the model used by the vast majority of *new*
	UNIX sites.  

	This can be completely ignored by SAGE.  We currently
	estimate that only about 1 to 2 percent of the professionals
	in our field are SAGE members  (that in traditional UNIX
	shops, regardless of Linux).  Linux has probably trebled the
	size of the UNIX marketplace in the last five years and 
	it will probably increase by about an order of magnitude in
	the next two to three years.  Frankly there isn't much of
	a difference between SAGE representing 1% of a constituency
	and .5% of one.  (Well over half of the Linux deployments
	will not be professionally managed --- and won't have any
	"proper" system administrator).
 
	However, let's not waste bandwidth on this.  We can keep
	the rest of this discussion off of the sage-members list.
	

--
Jim Dennis  (800) 938-4078		consulting@starshine.org
Linuxcare: Linux Corporate Support Team:  http://www.linuxcare.com


From sage-members-owner  Sun Mar 28 19:44:33 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA27789
	for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 19:44:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail2.desupernet.net (qmailr@mail2.desupernet.net
	[204.249.184.37]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA27758
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 19:44:25 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199903290344.TAA27758@usenix.ORG>
Received: (qmail 15811 invoked from network); 29 Mar 1999 03:29:43 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO lisa) (208.170.178.105)
	by mail2.desupernet.net with SMTP; 29 Mar 1999 03:29:43 -0000
X-Sender: 00507-brs@mail.desupernet.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:38:06 -0500
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
Subject: Score one for our side
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Greetings,

Many of you may remember some of my earlier posts about my being the only
technical administrator yet having to get everything approved my the "non
technical" Director of Information Systems, and blah-blah blah-blah-blah.
The replies were pretty evenly split on the issue of whether to stay of
leave.  I thought that I would give you all an update.

Our company, prospectively, has the need to create a small remote office
out of state.  This office will initially hold only two people.  These two
people would need access into our primary data systems.  The "original"
plan was to set up a dedicated link between the remote facility and ours.
I, being of good fortune, wound up with the opportunity to be in the same
room with the Senior VP (without "my boss") when this was mentioned.  I
quickly proposed the idea of using a VPN comprised of two "older" machines
that were about to be moth balled.

In an instant I found myself regurgitating everything I had read about
VPN's and their technology and explained that this remote site could be a
proving ground for a way to link to out Texas site, (we are in PA).  I
explained that at the moment network loads on our systems were not high and
that we might be able to survive a year or more under "dial-up VPN" before
moving to higher bandwidth.  The Senior VP then told the Executive VP about
my proposal, and being the corporate "big wigs" they are, they quickly hit
the adding machine.    It turns out that there would be a $10,000 savings
per site if, as they put it, "this VPN thing works".

Well now I had done it, I had gone and opened my mouth and now had to
produce.  This was my first VPN ever, so I had many stumbling blocks along
the way.  It took about two weeks for me to work out all the kinks and
establish a true working VPN running on 56k dial-up connections.   At first
it seemed like the preverbal pipe dream, but as time went on and the
services came on-line it quickly became the buzz of the office.  My boss,
who incidentally thought that the dedicated connection was the way to go,
was beginning to sway his position.

Since the remote site would have only two people, and neither of them would
be technical in nature, I had to devise ways to keep the VPN on-line, and
maintain the server remotely.  This threatened to shut down his project
until I explained that these things could be automated and that a simple
"diagnostic" modem for emergencies was all that was necessary.  The project
was allowed to continue.  Out of this I wound up developing a toll which I
called "ifmon" which watched a particular interface and ran some command
when the connection was lost.  By pointing ifmon at the connection script,
VPN connections would be re-established the second they went down,
resulting in a total lag of about 30-40 seconds.  I think, but I'm not
sure, that my boss was asked about my endeavors during this project, but
was unable to give any details due to the lack of understanding of what I
was trying to do.

As it turns out the call for the initial remote site may not happen, but
the "powers that be" are looking very seriously at my VPN scenario to serve
the link between our "long distance" locations.  As for the "score on for
our side"  while my way may not actually come to pass, people in high level
positions are beginning to recognize that system administration means more
than just "being in charge" but that it requires either the knowledge and
skill or more importantly the trust in those with the knowledge and skills
to be able to weigh all solutions and possibilities and come up with ideas
that benefit the company as well as "suit the need"

For some of you this may not have been a big deal, but it was a great
victory for me (on many levels).

Just thought that I would share the good news.

Cheers,
	- Bennett


From sage-members-owner  Wed Mar 31 06:09:00 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA16956
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:09:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mercury.mv.net (root@mercury.mv.net [199.125.85.40])
	by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA16947
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:08:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: from condor (bnh-6-20.mv.com [199.125.98.84]) by mercury.mv.net
	(8.8.8/mem-971025) with SMTP id JAA05071 for
	<sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:02:44 -0500 (EST)
From: "Dan York" <dyork@lodestar2.com>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: FW: PLEASE READ: Job Analysis Survey Announcement
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:02:48 -0500
Message-ID: <003b01be7b7f$2887bd00$54627dc7@condor>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0
Importance: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

SAGE members,
Last week, John Sechrest forwarded a message to sage-members about
a pre-survey the Linux Professional Institute was doing in preparation
for a job analysis survey as part of our effort to develop a Linux
certification program.  That message created a bit of a stir, and I 
really don't want to reopen all that debate, however, the pre-survey
is finished and we are ready to start the actual job analysis survey.

If any of you are interested and willing to participate in this
job analysis survey relating to Linux/UNIX system administration, 
please read the message below and visit the URL mentioned.

Your input in helping us determine *what* topics should be addressed,
and the importance of those topics, will help us make this certification
program that much better than all the other programs out there today.
We need your help!

On the other hand, if you don't agree with the need for certification,
please just ignore this message.

Thank you,
Dan

-----Original Message-----
From: alt@vanilla.dynip.com [mailto:alt@vanilla.dynip.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 1:35 AM
To: JobAnalysisNotification@vanilla.dynip.com
Subject: PLEASE READ: Job Analysis Survey Announcement

This message is to announce the long-awaited beginning of the Linux system
administrator Job Analysis Survey. We want to thank everyone who contributed
to the pre-survey. We have taken your input and organized it into the Job
Analysis Survey.

If you administer a Linux system, we invite you to participate in the survey.
The URL is: http://www.lpi.org/cgi-bin/jass.py

The official announcement of the survey appears below. Please read it and
forward it to other Linux sysadmins.

Thank you.

A.R. (Tom) Peters <tpeters@xs4all.nl>, Program Director
Scott Murray <alt@vanilla.dynip.com>, Exam Development Director

--------------

         LINUX SYSTEM ADMINISTRATOR JOB ANALYSIS SURVEY 

The Linux Professional Institute calls for your input to build a good
certification program for Linux system administration.

We are a group of people with a broad range of backgrounds, but with a
common interest to further the professional use of the Linux operating
system.  We believe that a widely supported certification program, not
dependent on a single Linux distribution or training center, will be an
important asset for this endeavor.  Please have a look at our site for
more information on what we do, and how you can be involved:
	http://www.lpi.org/

Now we take the next step: a job analysis of system administration.  We
will investigate what a system administrator needs to do or to know in
order to operate on a certain functional level.  The results we will use
to define a program of objectives, which will be tested in a series of
exams, which will lead to certification as a Linux system administrator.

We invite anyone with an interest in Unix and Linux system administration
to visit the website we put up to collect data for the job analysis.
You will be asked to answer a few questions about a random selection from
the many tasks a system administrator might need to perform; this will
take 15 to 30 minutes of your time.  We also need to collect some data of
a personal nature, for reasons that are explained in the on-line
instructions; these may be entered anonymously if you wish.

The survey will run until friday the 9th of April.  This is your
opportunity to help shape the future of professional Linux
use, so please offer your input at:
	http://www.lpi.org/cgi-bin/jass.py






From sage-members-owner  Mon Apr  5 08:10:19 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA17921
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 08:10:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17908
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 08:10:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (STD1.2/BZS-8-1.0)
	id LAA29652; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 11:08:07 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0)
	id AA27690; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 11:08:06 -0400
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 11:08:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Schlitt <schlitt@world.std.com>
To: Sage List <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Intro UNIX Training
Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.96.990405110141.166A-100000@world.std.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


All of a sudden I have been asked to recommend some sources for UNIX
training at the introductory level.

It turns out that our sales engineers have sub-minimal knowlege of UNIX
and the only reasonable way to remedy this is to send them off to a course
where they have to sit still and pay attention to learning something about
UNIX.

So I would like to have some suggestions from SAGE folks.

The content needs to be relatively generic because they will need to deal
with Solaris, HP-UX and AIX in their work. 

Thanks.

/dan

-- 

Dan Schlitt
schlitt@world.std.com




From sage-members-owner  Mon Apr  5 11:40:46 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA29695
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 11:40:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ubatuba.dca.fee.unicamp.br (ubatuba.dca.fee.unicamp.br
	[143.106.11.134]) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29642
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 11:40:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from macauba.dca.fee.unicamp.br (macauba.dca.fee.unicamp.br
	[143.106.11.154])
	by ubatuba.dca.fee.unicamp.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17346;
	Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:38:08 -0300 (EST)
Received: from localhost (antonio@localhost)
	by macauba.dca.fee.unicamp.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA03461;
	Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:38:08 -0300 (EST)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:38:07 -0300 (EST)
From: Antonio Figueiredo <antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br>
To: Dan Schlitt <schlitt@world.std.com>
cc: Sage List <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: Intro UNIX Training
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.96.990405110141.166A-100000@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9904051523420.3411-100000@macauba.dca.fee.unicamp.br>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Dan Schlitt wrote:

<...> 
> So I would like to have some suggestions from SAGE folks.
> 
> The content needs to be relatively generic because they will need to deal
> with Solaris, HP-UX and AIX in their work. 
> 

I think if you have course which gives a basic introduction on the general
aspects of Unix, such as: 

	* main caracteristics
	* facilities
	* structure of Unix
	* file systems concept
	* file ownership
	* file with multiples references
	* tools and basic commands
	* Shell
	* programs and process
	* general view on regular expressions
	* useful commands (such as: tar, grep, sed, awk, ...)

and also could cover some specific particularities of the each
environment, I think it would be fine for you.

--antonio

------------------
Antonio Figueiredo	            
School of Electrical and                  www.dca.fee.unicamp.br/~antonio  
Computer Engineering                           antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br  
State University of Campinas - Campinas, SP BRAZIL        +55 19 788-3845 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit         http://www.revista.unicamp.br/revista/navegacao/index9.html



From sage-members-owner  Mon Apr  5 19:25:33 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA21863
	for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:25:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from msg.ucsf.edu (msg.ucsf.EDU [128.218.69.41])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21854
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:25:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (matt@localhost)
	by msg.ucsf.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA388321
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:23:22 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:23:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matt Harrington <matt@msg.ucsf.edu>
Reply-To: Matt Harrington <matt@msg.ucsf.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: SUMMARY: setting up a mail server
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.96.990405191354.385941D-100000@msg.ucsf.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



Thanks to all who responded to my query about setting up a reliable mail
server when home directories are on a flaky NFS server.  The simplest
solution for me, one I never would have thought of, is to simply tell
sendmail to look for forward files in /usr/local instead of in home
directories.  I therefore didn't have to set up a separate home directory
just for the mail server -- something which would have confused many of
my users.  This was quite easy to do with the following m4 macro: 

define(`confFORWARD_PATH', `/usr/local/etc/forwards/$u.forward')dnl

I wrote a little script to "touch $LOGNAME.forward" in that directory and
then copied $HOME/.forward there for each user who had already set up a
$HOME/.forward file.  This way I don't have to make the parent directory
have group/world write permissions, and sendmail is happy.

I'll also soon be getting a UPS and will rewrite the shutdown scripts so
that sendmail quits before anything else shuts down.  Also, I'll use the
XFS Plexing option in Irix to mirror the spool directories across two
disks in case one is lost before the nightly backup. 

Thanks everyone for the ideas!

Matt Harrington
Univ. California San Francisco




From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 06:04:53 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA22476
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 06:04:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from inm.sentex.ca (r00t@inm.sentex.ca [205.211.164.96])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA22459
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 06:04:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from admin3.ineural.com (gdunn@admin3.ineural.com [192.168.0.71])
	by inm.sentex.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA08850
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:02:44 -0400
Received: (from gdunn@localhost)
	by admin3.ineural.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06367
	for sage-members@usenix.ORG; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:02:42 -0400
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:02:42 -0400
From: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: User email monitoring
Message-ID: <19990406090242.A6188@ineural.com>
References: <Pine.SGI.3.96.990405191354.385941D-100000@msg.ucsf.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.96.990405191354.385941D-100000@msg.ucsf.edu>;
	from Matt Harrington on Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 07:23:22PM -0700
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

It's recently been decided by management here that they need to be able
to review all email that's sent out by employees (after it's been sent
out). Technical issues aside (I haven't actually come up with a
procmail/sendmail solution yet), I'm curious as to what other people are
doing in this area. Is this common, or are the people I work for pushing
the boundaries of ethics and common-sense?

I appreciate this may be sensitive information for some people, so feel
free to tell me about "I heard some people do ..." :]

Thanks,
Graham

-- 
   gdunn@ineural.com	 Graham Dunn         || ||| | ||| |||| | |||| | 
Systems Administrator - International Neural Machines Inc. - Waterloo, ON
    Key fingerprint = 3F 56 12 9B 8A E1 77 CB  F0 62 94 B0 93 06 1E 88


From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 06:42:08 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA24821
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 06:42:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from vielle.datasys.net (mark@vielle.datasys.net [204.252.164.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA24767
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 06:41:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from mark@localhost)
	by vielle.datasys.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA01536;
	Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:39:09 -0400
Message-Id: <199904061339.JAA01536@vielle.datasys.net>
From: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:39:01 -0400
Reply-To: mark@vielle.datasys.net (Mark R. Lindsey)
X-Pgp-Fingerprint: DB 6B 9E 9F B5 F2 9B 6D A0 BE D8 10 6B 22 8F 06
X-Accept-Language: sh
X-Tom-Swiftie: I like writing artificially intelligent programs, Tom lisped.
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 1995-03-03)
To: Antonio Figueiredo <antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br>,
	Dan Schlitt <schlitt@world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Intro UNIX Training
Cc: Sage List <sage-members@usenix.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Dan Schlitt wrote:
: <...> 
: > So I would like to have some suggestions from SAGE folks.
: > 
: > The content needs to be relatively generic because they will need to deal
: > with Solaris, HP-UX and AIX in their work. 
: > 
: 
: I think if you have course which gives a basic introduction on the general
: aspects of Unix, such as: 
: 
: 	* main caracteristics
: 	* facilities
: 	* structure of Unix

I just read Mike Gancarz' book ``The UNIX Philosophy'' (Digital Press)
and was quite impressed. I agree with his suggestion that it would make
a good introductory book, as it prepares the reader conceptually the OS.

I'd suspect that you could do a basic coverage of the main tenets in two
or three hours that would be sufficient for non-programming users.



From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 08:18:41 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00279
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 08:18:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from claymoor.onyx.net (claymoor.onyx.net [194.176.71.33])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA00263
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 08:18:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from arm10@localhost)
	by claymoor.onyx.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01280;
	Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:15:11 +0100
Message-ID: <XFMail.990406161510.Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <19990406090242.A6188@ineural.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 16:15:10 +0100 (BST)
Organization: Onyx Internet
From: Adam Morris <Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
To: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>
Subject: RE: User email monitoring
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Greetings,
        Forgive the long message, but I have strong opinions on this... :-)

On 06-Apr-99 Graham Dunn wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> It's recently been decided by management here that they need to be able
> to review all email that's sent out by employees (after it's been sent
> out). Technical issues aside (I haven't actually come up with a
> procmail/sendmail solution yet), I'm curious as to what other people are
> doing in this area. Is this common, or are the people I work for pushing
> the boundaries of ethics and common-sense?
> 

Well, a children's charity in the UK decided that "in the interests of all
children, to protect them from pedophiles" all internet based chat should be
logged...  I don't know the size of your company, or the amount of outgoing
email every day, but I would imagine that the storage and logging of all
outgoing mail from your servers would not be as huge a task.  Personally, I
believe that it pushes both the boundaries of ethics and of common sense.  You
are employing these people, surely you trust them?  If you don't trust them,
why are you employing them? 

It might be worth checking your mail logs, and working out the amount of mail
that is going out from your site on "a typical working day" both in number of
messages, and total size of mail.  Then work out how much storage space you
will require for all of that mail for, say, a month...  Then you can add in the
costs of backups, they're more likely to want to monitor them over a larger
period than one month...  :-)  unless you have a tiny site then the actual bulk
of mail they would have to read would probably scare them.  

        Yours,
                Adam Morris

- ----------------------------------
If this message isn't signed, it probably isn't me.
Adam Morris - Systems Engineer - Onyx Internet

Magpie, n.:
        A bird whose theivish disposition suggested to someone that it
might be taught to talk.
                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

- ----------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNwok/jxztoTO1QFNAQHRyAQAq6H69wj3UlLrQ6QNrgqYaUqGWwX2lydU
070UdNj40R2EctN/QRAlKnG/uiPPGqdLGtDbnJSNaP6CtuH7FRHznFc1pcKhvFGt
fAvhFVWGg56VIeZ6h3xomQbRqc0jwxLbg9zSt0sy6Pj3+M+gpr34bP318j34legF
oukJT8/DoK8=
=adjz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 09:25:24 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA04317
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:25:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mailhost.dircon.co.uk (mailhost.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.65])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04308
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:25:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from jon.europe.sumibank.com (th-en133-037.pool.dircon.co.uk
	[194.112.53.37])
	by mailhost.dircon.co.uk (8.9.1/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA20588
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:23:12 +0100 (BST)
Reply-To: <jmorgan@dircon.co.uk>
From: "Jon Morgan" <jmorgan@dircon.co.uk>
To: <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: RE: User email monitoring
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:31:01 +0100
Message-ID: <001901be804a$e00f8000$df3870c2@jon.europe.sumibank.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0
In-Reply-To: <19990406090242.A6188@ineural.com>
Importance: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Graham Dunn said:
> It's recently been decided by management here that they need 
> to be able to review all email that's sent out by employees
> (after it's been sent out). Technical issues aside (I haven't
> actually come up with a procmail/sendmail solution yet), I'm
> curious as to what other people are doing in this area. Is
> this common, or are the people I work for pushing the
> boundaries of ethics and common-sense?

It depends on whether you are just blocking email to mailing
lists on work time (as my current employer sort of does -- its
a policy that can be bent, rather than set in stone), or 
actually reading/monitoring the bodies of messages. 

This surfaced somewhere fairly recently, but I can't remember 
where off the top of my head. I've got the feeling that it was
on alt.sysadmin.recovery (of all places!). The basic consensus
was that you need to make sure that you have everything written 
down as a policy and that if you EVER need to review anybodys 
email, there should be a member of management with you. You also 
probably need to talk to the corporate lawyers about this as 
well - there may be some things that need to be cleared first 
(employee contracts, Canadian freedom of speech laws, etc).

Its a very murky area, and I would be very, VERY careful about
how you manage to implement this. I really don't envy you.

(As a postmaster in a previous incarnation, I've had to do 
something *almost* similar. I cheated and managed to get away
with only parsing headers rather than bodies, but that made me
uncomfortable enough.)

Good luck!

		-jon.

-- 
Jon Morgan 						<jmorgan@dirconspam.co.uk> 
DEC Systems Specialist
JRI Europe Ltd
                        nihil illegitemi carborvndvm
                   [INHERIT ('SYS$LIBRARY:DISCLAIMER.PEN')]
                            ____________________




From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 09:47:49 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA05606
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:47:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from as4.atsat.com (mail.atsat.com [195.10.32.7])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05594
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:47:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from snert.com ([195.78.3.7]) by as4.atsat.com
	(Netscape Messaging Server 3.5)  with ESMTP id 312
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:44:27 +0200
Message-ID: <370A3A30.72F48FC2@snert.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 18:45:36 +0200
From: "Anthony Howe" <achowe@snert.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: SAGE <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: User email monitoring
References: <Pine.SGI.3.96.990405191354.385941D-100000@msg.ucsf.edu>
	<19990406090242.A6188@ineural.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

> It's recently been decided by management here that they need to be able
> to review all email that's sent out by employees (after it's been sent
> out). Technical issues aside (I haven't actually come up with a
> procmail/sendmail solution yet), I'm curious as to what other people are
> doing in this area. Is this common, or are the people I work for pushing
> the boundaries of ethics and common-sense?

I've heard of some companies doing this, but it EATS a lot of time if a
human person has to review the email.  Alternatives,

a) you only monitor email of SUSPECT employees when collecting info for
grounds  to dismiss.

b) you create a script as an email filter for all the mail that looks
for key words and flags those messages of interest

c) you simply archive the LOT until you have some need of it for a
lawsuit.

Probably a combination of of b) and c) is best.  c) is the least amount
of work IMHO.

On the ethical side, I'd prefer option a), because then you can ask
Mgmt. for reasons, demands in writing etc. to monitor a user's
activity.  To do it across the board is a bit Big Brother and may force
your user's to use PGP and/or free email services.


-- 
Anthony C Howe          1489 Ch. des Collines, 06110 Le Cannet, France
+33 (0)6 1189 7378 (p)  +33 (0)4 9346 8901 (f)            ICQ# 7116561
mailto:achowe@snert.com                          http://www.snert.com/
"Little !?" - Worf


From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 09:52:17 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA05901
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:52:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from westnet.com (levins@westnet.com [206.24.6.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05892
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:52:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (levins@localhost)
	by westnet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA01460
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:50:04 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:50:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: keystroke monitoring
In-Reply-To: <199904061339.JAA01536@vielle.datasys.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.4.10.9904061247470.1215-100000@westnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


I've got a question.  What do you folks use (if anything) for keystroke
monitoring?  I've got a production web server that I'm fighting a losing
battle over regarding user accounts -- there are some things that one or
two people *must* have access for.  What I'd like is some sort of shell or
something that will let them do what they need (as themselves, thankfully,
not as root), but that'll log everything they do in case something goes
horribly wrong.  Does such a beast exist?

Thanks,
-Adam




From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 10:02:57 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA06625
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:02:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ubatuba.dca.fee.unicamp.br (ubatuba.dca.fee.unicamp.br
	[143.106.11.134]) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06616
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:02:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from macauba.dca.fee.unicamp.br (macauba.dca.fee.unicamp.br
	[143.106.11.154])
	by ubatuba.dca.fee.unicamp.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06400;
	Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:00:32 -0300 (EST)
Received: from localhost (antonio@localhost)
	by macauba.dca.fee.unicamp.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA04114;
	Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:00:31 -0300 (EST)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:00:30 -0300 (EST)
From: Antonio Figueiredo <antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br>
To: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: User email monitoring
In-Reply-To: <19990406090242.A6188@ineural.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9904061348250.4092-100000@macauba.dca.fee.unicamp.br>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Graham Dunn wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> It's recently been decided by management here that they need to be able
> to review all email that's sent out by employees (after it's been sent
> out). Technical issues aside (I haven't actually come up with a
> procmail/sendmail solution yet), I'm curious as to what other people are
> doing in this area. Is this common, or are the people I work for pushing
> the boundaries of ethics and common-sense?
> 
> I appreciate this may be sensitive information for some people, so feel
> free to tell me about "I heard some people do ..." :]
> 

If you would like to have a look ONLY the fields "to:" and "from:" of the
messages sent by your users, grep the file /var/log/syslog.
Something else I think anti-ethic and, of course, NOT allowed in my
site.

If you want to centralize your syslog, insert this line in the 
/etc/syslog.conf

mail.debug                    ifdef(`LOGHOST', /var/log/syslog, @loghost)

and define your loghost machine in your systems.

--antonio

------------------
Antonio Figueiredo	            
School of Electrical and                  www.dca.fee.unicamp.br/~antonio  
Computer Engineering                           antonio@dca.fee.unicamp.br  
State University of Campinas - Campinas, SP BRAZIL        +55 19 788-3845 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit         http://www.revista.unicamp.br/revista/navegacao/index9.html



From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 10:07:55 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA06977
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:07:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from psasolar.colltech.com (psasolar.colltech.com [208.229.236.14])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06944
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:07:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (cmh@localhost)
	by psasolar.colltech.com (VER/What/1.0) with ESMTP id MAA21302
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:05:39 -0500 (CDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com: cmh owned process
	doing -bs
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:05:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Carolyn M. Hennings" <cmh@colltech.com>
X-Sender: cmh@psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: chigrp April Meeting Announcement 
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9904061204010.134-100000@psasolar.private.psa.pencom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Join us at our next meeting where there will be an informative
presentation:

             Yes, You Too Can
           Write a Paper for Lisa

              April 8, 1999
             7:00 - 9:00 pm
           ACNielsen Building
          150 North Martingale,
             Schaumburg IL

Abstract

Ever do something unique in your computing environment that other
systems management professionals might find interesting?  Ever do
something you thought would be great and have it turn out lousy --
or vice versa?  Ever think about writing a paper for USENIX, SAGE,
or another conference but had problems coming up with a topic or 
thought you couldn't write a paper to save your life?  Well, even
if the answer's No to all these questions, come join us at this
month's chigrp meeting.

Josh Simon will lead a highly-interactive discussion on what
kinds of topics do (and don't) work for a conference's referreed
papers track, and provide some behind-the-scenes tips that can
increase the chances of your paper abstract being accepted to a
USENIX- sponsored conference.

Deadline for submissions is May 25th. The LISA99 web pages have
more details about the submission process.

About the Speaker

Josh Simon, a Consultant with Collective Technologies, has been
involved in systems administration for over a decade and with the
USENIX Association and the SAGE Special Technical Group for over
5 years.  In his career he's been a technical support weenie,
technical writer, teacher, network engineer, webmaster, project
manager, systems administrator, and chief cook and bottle washer
for companies in the educational, manufacturing, and financial
markets.

Socializing

Following the presentation we will gather at Bennigan's at the
intersection of Higgins and Martingale. 


Directions

Located at 150 North Martingale Road, Between Higgins and Biesterfield,
just off of I-290/Route 53.

>From the South:

Exit I-290/Route 53 at Biesterfield, turn left (West) on Biesterfield. Turn
right (North) on Martingale Road. Proceed North on Martingale Road, past
stoplight at Schaumburg Road. Turn left (West) at ACNielsen sign (after
the Schaumburg Marriott Hotel).

>From the North:

Exit I-290/Route 53 at Higgins, turn right (West) on Higgins. Turn left
(South) on Martingale Road.  Proceed South on Martingale Road, past
stoplight at Corporate Crossing. Turn right (West) at ACNielsen sign
(before the Schaumburg Marriott Hotel).

Parking:

Parking is available in the parking a garage to the rear of the facility.
After parking take the elevator or stairs to the 2nd floor, then take the
walkway into the building lobby. Check in at  the ACNielsen desk, mention
you are with SAGE/chigrp, and you will be directed to the conference room
for the meeting.

Yahoo Map of area nearby 150 North Martingale Road, Schaumburg: 

http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=150+North+Martingale+Road&csz=601
73&Get+Map=Get+Map




From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 10:39:49 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA08864
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:39:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from tower.ti.com (tower.ti.com [192.94.94.5])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08855
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:39:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from sh-gpl.ti.com ([158.218.236.56]) by tower.ti.com (8.8.8) with
	ESMTP id MAA00346; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:36:51 -0500 (CDT)
Received: from vulcan.sh-gpl.ti.com (vulcan.sh-gpl.ti.com [158.218.236.59]) by
	sh-gpl.ti.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA27883;
	Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:36:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steve Blackmon <steveb@sh-gpl.ti.com>
Received: (from steveb@localhost) by vulcan.sh-gpl.ti.com (8.8.6
	(PHNE_14041)/8.7.3) id MAA12735; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:36:37 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <199904061736.MAA12735@vulcan.sh-gpl.ti.com>
Subject: Re: keystroke monitoring
To: levins@westnet.com (Adam and Christine Levin)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:36:36 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.10.9904061247470.1215-100000@westnet.com> from "Adam
	and Christine Levin" at Apr 6, 99 12:50:03 pm
Reply-To: steveb@ti.com
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Adam,

 It sound like you want sudo.

 You should be able to find it and a description of it at 
http://www.courtesan.com/sudo/

A brief description follows -

Sudo (superuser do) allows a system administrator to give certain users
(or groups of users) the ability to run some (or all) commands as root
while logging all commands and arguments. Sudo operates on a per-command
basis, it is not a replacement for the shell. It's features include: 

      The ability to restrict what commands a user may run on a per-host basis. 

      Sudo does copious logging of each command, providing a clear audit trail
      of who did what. When used in tandem with syslogd, the system log daemon,
      sudo can log all commands to a central host (as well as on the local host).
      At CU, all admins use sudo in lieu of a root shell to take advantage of this
      logging. 

      Sudo uses timestamp files to implement a "ticketing" system. When a user
      invokes sudo and enters their password, they are granted a ticket for 5
      minutes (this timeout is configurable at compile-time). Each subsequent
      sudo command updates the ticket for another 5 minutes. This avoids the problem
      of leaving a root shell where others can physically get to your keyboard. There
      is also an easy way for a user to remove their ticket file, useful for placing
      in a .logout file. 

      Sudo's configuration file, the sudoers file, is setup in such a way that the same
      sudoers file may be used on many machines. This allows for central administration
      while keeping the flexibility to define a user's privileges on a per-host basis.


According to Adam and Christine Levin :
:-)  
:-)  
:-)  I've got a question.  What do you folks use (if anything) for keystroke
:-)  monitoring?  I've got a production web server that I'm fighting a losing
:-)  battle over regarding user accounts -- there are some things that one or
:-)  two people *must* have access for.  What I'd like is some sort of shell or
:-)  something that will let them do what they need (as themselves, thankfully,
:-)  not as root), but that'll log everything they do in case something goes
:-)  horribly wrong.  Does such a beast exist?
:-)  
:-)  Thanks,
:-)  -Adam
:-)  
:-)  


-- 
                                  
        ,                   ,,    
       ||        ;          ||    
 _-_, =||=  _-_  \\/\  _-_  ||/|, 
||_.   ||  || \\ || | || \\ || || 
 ~ ||  ||  ||/   || | ||/   || |' 
,-_-   \\, \\,/  \\/  \\,/  \\/   
                                  
                                  
 
########################################################################
# Steve Blackmon                    # Email:  steveb@ti.com            #
# UNIX System and Software Support  #                                  #
# Sherman ASL Design Group          #                                  #
# Texas Instruments, Inc.           # TI msg id:  SJBL                 #
# M/S 802                           #                                  #
# 6412 Hwy 75 South                 # Phone:  903-868-7149             #
# Sherman, TX  75090                # FAX:    903-868-5980             #
########################################################################



From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 10:42:50 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA09113
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:42:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from westnet.com (levins@westnet.com [206.24.6.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09097
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:42:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (levins@localhost)
	by westnet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA07794;
	Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:40:32 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:40:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
To: steveb@ti.com
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: keystroke monitoring
In-Reply-To: <199904061736.MAA12735@vulcan.sh-gpl.ti.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.4.10.9904061337450.7406-100000@westnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Steve Blackmon wrote:
> Adam,
>  It sound like you want sudo.
>  You should be able to find it and a description of it at 
> http://www.courtesan.com/sudo/

Well, not quite, but I'll have to investigate further.  We already use
sudo for when a user needs to do something with, for example, oracle or
the web server itself (which runs as a different user).  However, they
shouldn't need to su to anyone on the production machine.  

I think probably what I'm looking for is more of a logging shell rather
than actual keystroke monitoring.  It's so that when they break something,
the SA staff can see what they did and undo it, rather than relying on the
old "but I didn't change a thing!", which there's far too much of here.

And yes, we're aware of the legalities and ethical issues.  This is *only*
on the production web server, which has very limited functionality.

Thanks for the help,
-Adam




From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 11:46:41 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA12901
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:46:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from Tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12885
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:46:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from exccup-conn01.mis.tandem.com (exccup-conn01.mis.tandem.com
	[130.252.226.231]) by Tandem.com (8.9.3/2.0.1) with ESMTP id LAA11295
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:44:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by exccup-conn01.mis.tandem.com with Internet Mail Service
	(5.5.2232.9) id <HKWXZZ8K>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:44:28 -0700
Message-ID: <DF2FDD30CC30D111BC3200805FFED5C701EECF88@exccup-25001.mis.tandem.com>
From: "Contos, Brian" <brian.contos@compaq.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: User email monitoring
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:44:27 -0700 
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Whatever type of monitoring you end up doing be sure to announce your
intentions to the users, and have a written policy approved by management
readily available for everybody to read - online on an internal web server
is always handy for this stuff.  Even with notification and documentation,
it's a sticky proposition when folks feel that "Big Brother" is now
monitoring their e-mail, which is often viewed by the user community as
personal.  

Brian Contos
Compaq Computers - Tandem Division
Enterprise Internet Services

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Dunn [mailto:gdunn@ineural.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 6:03 AM
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: User email monitoring


Hi,

It's recently been decided by management here that they need to be able
to review all email that's sent out by employees (after it's been sent
out). Technical issues aside (I haven't actually come up with a
procmail/sendmail solution yet), I'm curious as to what other people are
doing in this area. Is this common, or are the people I work for pushing
the boundaries of ethics and common-sense?

I appreciate this may be sensitive information for some people, so feel
free to tell me about "I heard some people do ..." :]

Thanks,
Graham

-- 
   gdunn@ineural.com	 Graham Dunn         || ||| | ||| |||| | |||| | 
Systems Administrator - International Neural Machines Inc. - Waterloo, ON
    Key fingerprint = 3F 56 12 9B 8A E1 77 CB  F0 62 94 B0 93 06 1E 88


From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 12:02:01 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA13656
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:02:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13647
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:01:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lanning.cc by relay1.UU.NET with ESMTP 
	(peer crosschecked as: lanning.vip.best.com [206.86.88.192])
	id QQgjup15517
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:59:52 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from lanning@localhost) by lanning.cc (8.9.0/8.8.3) id LAA22758;
	Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:54:01 -0700
From: Robert Hajime Lanning <lanning@lanning.cc>
Message-Id: <199904061854.LAA22758@lanning.cc>
Subject: Re: User email monitoring
To: gdunn@ineural.com (Graham Dunn)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:54:01 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <19990406090242.A6188@ineural.com> from "Graham Dunn" at Apr 6,
	99 09:02:42 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I personaly would not do it.

The last company I was at I was in charge of the mail server for North America.
This company did not use email that much.  The statisics I generated from
syslog at the end of the month showed on average of 4GB of mail going through
that system per month.

If the general population of the company discovered that the company is copying
their email, I would expect atleast half to leave the company.

---- As written by Graham Dunn:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> It's recently been decided by management here that they need to be able
> to review all email that's sent out by employees (after it's been sent
> out). Technical issues aside (I haven't actually come up with a
> procmail/sendmail solution yet), I'm curious as to what other people are
> doing in this area. Is this common, or are the people I work for pushing
> the boundaries of ethics and common-sense?
> 
> I appreciate this may be sensitive information for some people, so feel
> free to tell me about "I heard some people do ..." :]
> 
> Thanks,
> Graham
> 
> -- 
>    gdunn@ineural.com	 Graham Dunn         || ||| | ||| |||| | |||| | 
> Systems Administrator - International Neural Machines Inc. - Waterloo, ON
>     Key fingerprint = 3F 56 12 9B 8A E1 77 CB  F0 62 94 B0 93 06 1E 88
> 


-- 
Robert Hajime Lanning                           Informix Software, Inc.
Senior Unix System Administrator                MailStop: MPK.39
Voice: 1(650) 926-6863                          4100 Bohannon Dr.
Fax:   1(650) 926-6089  <lanning@informix.com>  Menlo Park, CA 94025, USA


From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 12:03:01 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA13759
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ulysses.noc.ntua.gr (ulysses.noc.ntua.gr [147.102.222.230])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13737
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:02:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from dblab.ece.ntua.gr (ithaca.dbnet.ece.ntua.gr [147.102.12.1])
	by ulysses.noc.ntua.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA26921;
	Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:00:43 +0300 (EET DST)
Received: from hawk.dbnet.ece.ntua.gr (hawk.dbnet.ece.ntua.gr [147.102.12.8])
	by dblab.ece.ntua.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA08091;
	Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:00:19 +0300 (EEST)
Received: (from george@localhost)
	by hawk.dbnet.ece.ntua.gr (8.9.3/8.9.2) id VAA01351;
	Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:00:40 +0300 (EEST)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:00:40 +0300
From: Yiorgos Adamopoulos <adamo@dblab.ece.ntua.gr>
To: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: keystroke monitoring
Message-ID: <19990406210040.A1331@dblab.ece.ntua.gr>
Reply-To: adamo@dblab.ece.ntua.gr
References: <199904061339.JAA01536@vielle.datasys.net>
	<Pine.SUN.4.10.9904061247470.1215-100000@westnet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.10.9904061247470.1215-100000@westnet.com>;
	from Adam and Christine Levin on Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 12:50:03PM
	-0400
X-Organization: Knowledge and Data Base Systems Laboratory,
	National Technical University of Athens, GREECE
X-URL: http://tupac.net/hood/adamo
X-Alt-Email: adamo@ieee.org
X-Work-Phone: +30-1-772-1-436
X-Work-FAX: +30-1-772-1-442
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

the name of the beast is ``sudo''

look at FTPsearch for sudo.*.tar.gz


--
Yiorgos Adamopoulos         -- #include <std/disclaimer.h>
adamo@dblab.ece.ntua.gr     -- Knowledge and Data Base Systems Laboratory, NTUA

On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 12:50:03PM -0400, Adam and Christine Levin wrote:
> 
> I've got a question.  What do you folks use (if anything) for keystroke
> monitoring?  I've got a production web server that I'm fighting a losing
> battle over regarding user accounts -- there are some things that one or
> two people *must* have access for.  What I'd like is some sort of shell or
> something that will let them do what they need (as themselves, thankfully,
> not as root), but that'll log everything they do in case something goes
> horribly wrong.  Does such a beast exist?
> 
> Thanks,
> -Adam
> 


From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 12:12:39 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA14430
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:12:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from minerva.psc.edu (minerva.psc.edu [128.182.62.121])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14383
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:12:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (ecf@localhost) by minerva.psc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with
	SMTP id PAA29991 for <sage-members@usenix.org>;
	Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:09:53 -0400
Message-Id: <199904061909.PAA29991@minerva.psc.edu>
X-Authentication-Warning: minerva.psc.edu: ecf@localhost didn't use HELO
	protocol
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: User email monitoring 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 06 Apr 1999 16:15:10 BST."
	<XFMail.990406161510.Adam.Morris@onyx.net> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 15:09:53 -0400
From: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


... and if they're thinking of using some program to monitor for certain
words, remember AOL, who in their rush to "protect the children", once banned
all messages with the word, "breast", leaving cancer survivors and cooks alike
without a word that was not (and is not) pornographic.





From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 12:46:18 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA16294
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:46:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from relay1.aexp.com (relay1.aexp.com [205.138.230.71])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16281
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:46:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from smap@localhost) by relay1.aexp.com  id MAA07654;
	Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:43:17 -0700 (MST)
Received: from mailhub1.ec.aexp.com(148.171.243.131) by relay1.aexp.com via
	smap (V1.3) id smal86058; Tue Apr  6 12:42:54 1999
Received: from HUB1-gw.hq.aexp.com by mailhub1.ec.aexp.com (X.400 to RFC822
	Gateway); Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:42:54 -0700
X400-Received: by mta AmexPHXMTA in /c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/; Relayed; 
	06 Apr 1999 12:42:52 -0700
X400-Received: by /c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/; Relayed; 
	06 Apr 1999 12:42:52 -0700
X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/;
	104FA370A63BC3D4-AmexPHXMTA]
Content-Identifier: 104FA370A63BC3D4
Content-Return: Allowed
X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 )
Conversion: Allowed
Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text
Priority: normal
Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited
Alternate-Recipient: Allowed
X400-Originator: Derick.H.Siddoway@aexp.com
X400-Recipients: non-disclosure;
Message-Id: <104FA370A63BC3D4*/c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/o=unresolved/ou=HUB1/ou=AMEX/s=Siddoway/g=Derick/i=H/@MHS>
Date: 06 Apr 1999 12:42:52 -0700
From: Derick H Siddoway <Derick.H.Siddoway@aexp.com>
To: "levins%westnet.com" <levins@westnet.com>,
	"sage-members%usenix.ORG" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: keystroke monitoring
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

sudo might be what you're looking for (but then, it might not...)

sudo lets you define commands that a non-root user can do
with root privileges.  It logs usage (to syslog, I think).

It might be overkill, though, if you're not looking to grant
root-type privileges to these users.  (It is configurable
enough that you could probably restrict it, but that might
be outside your comfort level.)

-- 
derick



From:	levins%westnet.com@Internet on 04/06/99 12:24 PM
To:	sage-members%usenix.ORG@Internet
cc:	 (bcc: Derick H Siddoway/TC/TRS/American Express)
Subject:	keystroke monitoring


I've got a question.  What do you folks use (if anything) for keystroke
monitoring?  I've got a production web server that I'm fighting a losing
battle over regarding user accounts -- there are some things that one or
two people *must* have access for.  What I'd like is some sort of shell or
something that will let them do what they need (as themselves, thankfully,
not as root), but that'll log everything they do in case something goes
horribly wrong.  Does such a beast exist?

Thanks,
-Adam






From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 13:13:34 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA17791
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:13:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from dogbert.camfs.net (rg-242.rootgroup.com [192.88.205.242])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17782
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:13:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from dogbert (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by dogbert.camfs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02329;
	Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:11:16 -0600 (MDT)
Message-Id: <199904062011.OAA02329@dogbert.camfs.net>
To: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: keystroke monitoring 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 06 Apr 1999 12:50:03 EDT."
	<Pine.SUN.4.10.9904061247470.1215-100000@westnet.com> 
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 14:11:16 -0600
From: Andrew Gehring <andrewg@netze.NET>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

sudo will allow you to setup accounts to run just certain commands, and
can even restrict what switches are allowed.


You can find it @ http://www.courtesan.com/sudo/



Andrew





From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 14:03:19 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA20425
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:03:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail01-lax.pilot.net (mail-lax-1.pilot.net [205.139.40.18])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20365
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:03:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: leeann@rand.org
Received: from mail.rand.org (unknown-6-173.rand.org [130.154.6.173] (may be
	forged)) by mail01-lax.pilot.net with ESMTP id OAA12048 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:01:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from crane.rand.org (crane.rand.org [130.154.9.180]) by
	mail.rand.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12237 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:01:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from nightstalker.rand.org (nightstalker.rand.org [130.154.2.202])
	by crane.rand.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00076 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:01:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from nightstalker.rand.org (leeann@localhost) by
	nightstalker.rand.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13169 for
	<sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:01:01 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199904062101.OAA13169@nightstalker.rand.org>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: keystroke monitoring 
In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 06 Apr 1999 12:50:03 EDT.
	<Pine.SUN.4.10.9904061247470.1215-100000@westnet.com> 
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 14:01:01 -0700
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


I believe script will do what you require, and it's part of the OS.
(this is true of FreeBSD, Solaris, and SunOS. I can't vouch for any
other flavor of Unix)

script          script (1)      - make record of a terminal session

Lee Ann

--Your message was: (from Adam and Christine Levin)
> 
> I've got a question.  What do you folks use (if anything) for keystroke
> monitoring?  I've got a production web server that I'm fighting a losing
> battle over regarding user accounts -- there are some things that one or
> two people *must* have access for.  What I'd like is some sort of shell or
> something that will let them do what they need (as themselves, thankfully,
> not as root), but that'll log everything they do in case something goes
> horribly wrong.  Does such a beast exist?
> 
> Thanks,
> -Adam

--
Lee Ann Goldstein, Computer Operations
Rand Corp., Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
leeann@rand.org


From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 14:27:50 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA21479
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:27:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from alice.austin.apc.slb.com (alice.austin.apc.slb.com
	[163.185.74.7]) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21463
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:27:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from austin.apc.slb.com (ice2-apc.austin.apc.slb.com
	[163.185.68.109])
	by alice.austin.apc.slb.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA09538;
	Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:24:14 -0500 (CDT)
Message-ID: <370A6D68.352D0D8D@austin.apc.slb.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 15:24:08 -0500
From: Francois Leclerc <leclerc@austin.apc.slb.com>
Organization: Schlumberger APC
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
CC: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: keystroke monitoring
References: <199904061339.JAA01536@vielle.datasys.net>
	<Pine.SUN.4.10.9904061247470.1215-100000@westnet.com>
	<19990406210040.A1331@dblab.ece.ntua.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

C2 audit trail (Solaris, AIX ,...) should let you audit what you want
or 
bash keeps a logs of the command typed, but you can truncate your 
history of commands


From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 16:05:30 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA26638
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:05:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from halfdome.holdit.com (IDENT:merlyn@halfdome.holdit.com
	[209.102.105.64]) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26618
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:05:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from merlyn@localhost)
	by halfdome.holdit.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA21594;
	Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:03:04 -0700
To: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: User email monitoring
References: <Pine.SGI.3.96.990405191354.385941D-100000@msg.ucsf.edu>
	<19990406090242.A6188@ineural.com>
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: 06 Apr 1999 16:03:04 -0700
In-Reply-To: Graham Dunn's message of "Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:02:42 -0400"
Message-ID: <m1zp4l73o7.fsf@halfdome.holdit.com>
Lines: 35
X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.44/Emacs 20.3
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

>>>>> "Graham" == Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com> writes:

Graham> It's recently been decided by management here that they need
Graham> to be able to review all email that's sent out by employees
Graham> (after it's been sent out). Technical issues aside (I haven't
Graham> actually come up with a procmail/sendmail solution yet), I'm
Graham> curious as to what other people are doing in this area. Is
Graham> this common, or are the people I work for pushing the
Graham> boundaries of ethics and common-sense?

In the US, the ECPA prevents this, except under the authority of law
enforcement officers.  I'd check with an ECPA-aware lawyer before
proceeding.

Yes, even though the company owns the hardware, you must *explicitly*
waive your ECPA rights, and most people haven't.  In fact, it's a bad
idea for a company to ask you to waive your ECPA rights, because then
*they* are liable as an accessory if you are caught doing anything
illegal in email.  With the ECPA in place, they have a legitimate
defense of "we didn't know" because, they weren't legally able to read
the mail!

The ECPA applies to all systems that can receive email from the
Internet, because that makes it a "federal interest computer" and
subject to federal law.

I'm not a lawyer, but I've paid enough in legal bills to understand
how most of this works now. :)

-- 
Name: Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095
Keywords: Perl training, UNIX[tm] consulting, video production, skiing, flying
Email: <merlyn@stonehenge.com> Snail: (Call) PGP-Key: (finger merlyn@teleport.com)
Web: <A HREF="http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/">My Home Page!</A>
Quote: "I'm telling you, if I could have five lines in my .sig, I would!" -- me


From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 18:33:40 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA14736
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:33:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from minerva.psc.edu (minerva.psc.edu [128.182.62.121])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14727
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:33:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (ecf@localhost) by minerva.psc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with
	SMTP id VAA01584 for <sage-members@usenix.org>;
	Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:30:58 -0400
Message-Id: <199904070130.VAA01584@minerva.psc.edu>
X-Authentication-Warning: minerva.psc.edu: ecf@localhost didn't use HELO
	protocol
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: User email monitoring 
In-reply-to: Your message of "06 Apr 1999 16:03:04 PDT."
	<m1zp4l73o7.fsf@halfdome.holdit.com> 
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 21:30:57 -0400
From: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


With all due respect to Randal's legal bills :-), what about
the court rulings that an employer owns employees email?

Or was that in the case of "accidental discovery" of the
offending messages?

(this is of course US courts, I can't speak for other countries.)



From sage-members-owner  Tue Apr  6 20:07:20 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA19251
	for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:07:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from priestess.tamu.edu (priestess.tamu.edu [128.194.49.50])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA19242
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:07:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from priestess.tamu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by priestess.tamu.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id WAA17333;
	Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:04:14 -0500 (CDT)
To: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
cc: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: User email monitoring 
In-reply-to: Your message of "06 Apr 1999 16:03:04 PDT."
	<m1zp4l73o7.fsf@halfdome.holdit.com> 
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 22:04:13 -0500
Message-ID: <17331.923454253@priestess.tamu.edu>
From: Cheryl Cato <cheryl@priestess.tamu.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


>
>Yes, even though the company owns the hardware, you must *explicitly*
>waive your ECPA rights, and most people haven't.  In fact, it's a bad
>idea for a company to ask you to waive your ECPA rights, because then
>*they* are liable as an accessory if you are caught doing anything
>illegal in email.  With the ECPA in place, they have a legitimate
>defense of "we didn't know" because, they weren't legally able to read
>the mail!
>
>The ECPA applies to all systems that can receive email from the
>Internet, because that makes it a "federal interest computer" and
>subject to federal law.


Very interesting!  Worth investigating and passing on....


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheryl Cato
Open Systems Support
TAMU Computing & Information Services



From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 01:26:51 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA05184
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:26:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from claymoor.onyx.net (claymoor.onyx.net [194.176.71.33])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA05168
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:26:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from arm10@localhost)
	by claymoor.onyx.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00191;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:22:57 +0100
Message-ID: <XFMail.990407102257.Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <199904061909.PAA29991@minerva.psc.edu>
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 10:22:57 +0100 (BST)
Organization: Onyx Internet
From: Adam Morris <Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
To: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
Subject: Re: User email monitoring
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


On 06-Apr-99 Esther Filderman wrote:
> 
> ... and if they're thinking of using some program to monitor for certain
> words, remember AOL, who in their rush to "protect the children", once banned
> all messages with the word, "breast", leaving cancer survivors and cooks
> alike
> without a word that was not (and is not) pornographic.

Just to improve on their record, AOL in the UK insisted that the inhabitants of
the town of Scunthorpe claim that they were from Scumthorpe as their monitoring
program didn't like the real name.  I think that Scumthorpe is worse myself...
:-)


Adam.

p.s. for reference, here in the UK an Ass is a donkey... These terms don't
travel too well.

- ----------------------------------
If this message isn't signed, it probably isn't me.
Adam Morris - Systems Engineer - Onyx Internet

For those who like this sort of thing, this is the sort of thing they
like.
                -- Abraham Lincoln

- ----------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNwsj8TxztoTO1QFNAQEmmQQArw2bV7AwItVxX1F8jJzHYASy4tYBhOTi
Twtd+WQAousWe/aJO46rczeJlUTyp6qGV1R0PJY1vrtzvFxBo99gZn64O7zbdMBF
q9BFsSHJyr7L1kcpDbXqK5dqklk8mQicYMOlmx+qHhowfwQbJudjrO7VoWw0JpRf
0dWOmmfJQTc=
=mQWc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 05:35:28 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA18747
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 05:35:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from loki.sdrc.com (loki.sdrc.com [146.122.132.199])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA18738
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 05:35:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from rubapuba (46-219.sdrc.com [146.122.46.219])
	by loki.sdrc.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA06135;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:33:14 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <00ce01be80f2$c4738aa0$db2e7a92@rubapuba>
From: "Paul R. Joslin" <paul.joslin@weirdness.com>
To: <leeann@rand.org>, <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: keystroke monitoring 
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:32:55 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

script is a good choice, if you are not overly concerned about malicious
users.  It can
produce reams of output.  You might also want to 'man col' to see how to
remove the terminal control sequences from the file.

Another user suggested using bash or another shell with history.  This can
be useful if you set HISTFILE to a file that is writeable by the user in a
directory he/she does not control.  The drawback is that you can see which
command they used, but not necessarily how they shot themselves in the
foot...

leann@rand.org wrote:
>I believe script will do what you require, and it's part of the OS.
>(this is true of FreeBSD, Solaris, and SunOS. I can't vouch for any
>other flavor of Unix)




From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 06:10:13 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA20516
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:10:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from relay.nswc.navy.mil (relay.nswc.navy.mil [128.38.1.41])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA20507
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:10:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from root@localhost)
	by relay.nswc.navy.mil (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id JAA23567
	for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:08:30 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from luxor.nswc.navy.mil (luxor.nswc.navy.mil [128.38.165.100])
	by relay.nswc.navy.mil (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA23559
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:08:28 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by luxor.nswc.navy.mil with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
	id <HYVFKC9S>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:10:56 -0400
Message-ID: <31A48D25E618D211820700A0C9B4143D46E028@luxor.nswc.navy.mil>
From: "Petersen, Dwight" <dpeters@nswc.navy.mil>
To: "'sage-members@usenix.org'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: ECPA
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:10:47 -0400 
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Do we have an attorney?  I realize that this would not benefit members
outside the US.  But SysAdmins are not infrequently asked to do things like
read other peoples email.  It would be a good thing to have a legal opinion
or two floating around that we could snag off the sage page and throw up to
management when they ask us to go poking around in peoples email.  What do
you think?


From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 07:29:03 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA24781
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 07:29:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from westnet.com (levins@westnet.com [206.24.6.2])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA24768
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 07:28:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (levins@localhost)
	by westnet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA12823
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:26:46 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:26:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: keystroke monitoring
In-Reply-To: <199904070130.VAA01584@minerva.psc.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.4.10.9904071025080.29097-100000@westnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


I'd like to thank all who responded.  I now have two possibilities.
First, a friend of mine whom I mentioned this to patched bash (and someone
else mentioned a patch for tcsh) that logs everything via syslog calls.
Also, several people mentioned script(1), which does exactly what I need
when wrapped in a little shell script.

So, thank you all for your assistance.
-Adam




From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 07:55:00 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA26122
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 07:55:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from aldebaran.sra.com (aldebaran.sra.com [163.252.31.31])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA26113
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 07:54:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from hankhill.iisd.sra.com (hankhill.iisd.sra.com [163.252.22.23])
	by aldebaran.sra.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02753
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:52:16 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost (herrt@localhost)
	by hankhill.iisd.sra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01759
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:51:07 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:51:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Todd Herr <herrt@hankhill.iisd.sra.com>
Reply-To: todd_herr@sra.com
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: re: ECPA
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9904071040130.595-100000@hankhill>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Inadvertently deleted the original post on this; sorry.

I've been following the discussion regarding the privacy of 
email in a detached manner, and while I am not an attorney, nor
even particularly well-versed in legal matters, I wonder if we're
not all missing a crucial point here.

While all employees of any particular organization have an expectation
of privacy in their communications, be they oral, written, or electronic,
I believe that their expectations here are misguided, if not flat-out
wrong.  One who is in the employ of any organization, and who is making 
use of resources owned by that corporation to communicate, has no right 
to expect that his or her communications will be private, regardless of 
whether or not the matter at hand is business-related or personal.  
Remember, when one is at work, one is not in a public place, but rather
one is in a privately "owned" space, and one is beholden to the rules
set forth by the owner.  I don't think that companies engage in any kind 
of secret spying on their employees either, but I do believe that most, 
if not all, companies reserve the right to do so and state this right
clearly in the fine print of whatever documents are signed by the 
employee at the beginning of the period of performance for the employee.
This paragraph is usually, if memory serves, geographically close to
the paragraphs about intellectual property rights, the one that says 
that the company owns all your ideas, and there's nothing you can do 
about it.

I'll be over here, putting on my asbestos suit now...

-- 
Todd Herr                                       todd_herr@sra.com
Unix Systems Administrator, SRA International.  http://www.sra.com

   Hypocrisy bothers me, but you shouldn't let it bother you.



From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 08:17:27 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA27445
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:17:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.msen.com (IDENT:279@conch.msen.com [148.59.19.5])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27436
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:17:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from mbl@localhost) by mail.msen.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id LAA06109;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:15:02 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:15:02 -0400
From: Matthew Landry <mbl@lelnet.com>
To: "Petersen, Dwight" <dpeters@nswc.navy.mil>
Cc: "'sage-members@usenix.org'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: ECPA
Message-ID: <19990407111501.G20685@conch.msen.com>
References: <31A48D25E618D211820700A0C9B4143D46E028@luxor.nswc.navy.mil>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i
In-Reply-To: <31A48D25E618D211820700A0C9B4143D46E028@luxor.nswc.navy.mil>;
	from Petersen, Dwight on Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 09:10:47AM -0400
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

> Do we have an attorney?  I realize that this would not benefit members
> outside the US.  But SysAdmins are not infrequently asked to do things like
> read other peoples email.  It would be a good thing to have a legal opinion
> or two floating around that we could snag off the sage page and throw up to
	I don't think this is a role that's appropriate for SAGE. Better
advice would be to have one's employer's own lawyers examine the proposed
policy and shoot it down...it'll have more credibility with management
coming from that direction anyway, and SAGE can do without the nasty
business of providing legal advice online. 
	Laws vary not only country-to-country, but within the US they vary 
substantially from state to state. ECPA is Federal, but individual states 
may have their own more (or less) permissive laws that concern these 
issues. Even if SAGE has a statement prepared by qualified attorneys, it 
can't hope to be sufficiently comprehensive even within the US.
	More to the point, SAGE is an organization of and for sysadmins, 
and even though legal issues sometimes impact the profession, that doesn't 
mean it should be SAGE's function to provide legal advice or assistance.
-- 
Matthew Landry    O-
LEL Network Services


From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 08:49:10 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA29550
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:49:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp4.fas.harvard.edu (IDENT:root@smtp4.fas.harvard.edu
	[140.247.30.84]) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29541
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:49:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from login4.fas.harvard.edu (IDENT:raich@login4.fas.harvard.edu
	[140.247.30.74]) by smtp4.fas.harvard.edu with ESMTP id
	LAA17569; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:46:56 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by login4.fas.harvard.edu with ESMTP id LAA09074;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:46:55 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:46:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thomas Raich <raich@fas.harvard.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: User email monitoring
In-Reply-To: <001901be804a$e00f8000$df3870c2@jon.europe.sumibank.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.04.9904071143160.4986-100000@login4.fas.harvard.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

	

My two cents on this would also add one factor which has not yet come up.
Please keep in mind if you are storing email, it could also be used during
a court case... either for or against the company.  A US Court can use
this as evidence.  In other words, the company had better be sure they
want to save this email, it can work against the company as well as for
them.

Personally I am against reading email for individual rights reasons but
thought I would add this to the discussion.

FYI,
thomas



From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 09:14:34 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA01084
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:14:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from relaywest.pinkertons.com ([208.242.193.3])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01074
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:14:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from usazexg001.whq.pinkertons.com ([192.168.0.11]) by
	relaywest.pinkertons.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.977.9);
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:09:33 -0700
Received: by usazexg001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3)
	id <2L6KZ8Z8>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:04:22 -0700
Message-ID: <5ED696D672E9D211ACE200805FA7A0DB20A9CF@usazexg001>
From: "Matthew Sparks (05-025)" <Matthew_Sparks@usa.Pinkertons.com>
To: "'Petersen, Dwight'" <dpeters@nswc.navy.mil>,
	"'sage-members@usenix.org'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: RE: ECPA
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:04:21 -0700 
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3)
Content-Type: text/plain
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Many court cases have already decided this.
I hasn't been to the supreme court, But it has made it to Federal Courts
without question.

Email generated on a companies computers belongs to the company.
No expectation of privacy exists. As uncomfortable as that makes us
feel.

The statements above are factual not my opinion. I think it sucks but a
company has
every right to read every piece of email you send via there email
servers.

Matt Sparks


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Petersen, Dwight [SMTP:dpeters@nswc.navy.mil]
> Sent:	Wednesday, April 07, 1999 6:11 AM
> To:	'sage-members@usenix.org'
> Subject:	ECPA
> 
> Do we have an attorney?  I realize that this would not benefit members
> outside the US.  But SysAdmins are not infrequently asked to do things
> like
> read other peoples email.  It would be a good thing to have a legal
> opinion
> or two floating around that we could snag off the sage page and throw
> up to
> management when they ask us to go poking around in peoples email.
> What do
> you think?


From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 09:15:48 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA01127
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:15:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ulysses.noc.ntua.gr (ulysses.noc.ntua.gr [147.102.222.230])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01118
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:15:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from dblab.ece.ntua.gr (ithaca.dbnet.ece.ntua.gr [147.102.12.1])
	by ulysses.noc.ntua.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA25935;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:13:32 +0300 (EET DST)
Received: from hawk.dbnet.ece.ntua.gr (hawk.dbnet.ece.ntua.gr [147.102.12.8])
	by dblab.ece.ntua.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13815;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:13:13 +0300 (EEST)
Received: (from george@localhost)
	by hawk.dbnet.ece.ntua.gr (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA07205;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 18:13:28 +0300 (EEST)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 18:13:28 +0300
From: Yiorgos Adamopoulos <adamo@dblab.ece.ntua.gr>
To: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: keystroke monitoring
Message-ID: <19990407181328.A7197@dblab.ece.ntua.gr>
Reply-To: adamo@dblab.ece.ntua.gr
References: <199904070130.VAA01584@minerva.psc.edu>
	<Pine.SUN.4.10.9904071025080.29097-100000@westnet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.10.9904071025080.29097-100000@westnet.com>;
	from Adam and Christine Levin on Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 10:26:46AM
	-0400
X-Organization: Knowledge and Data Base Systems Laboratory,
	National Technical University of Athens, GREECE
X-URL: http://tupac.net/hood/adamo
X-Alt-Email: adamo@ieee.org
X-Work-Phone: +30-1-772-1-436
X-Work-FAX: +30-1-772-1-442
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

also:

- ttysnoop
- ttywatcher
- linspy

On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 10:26:46AM -0400, Adam and Christine Levin wrote:
> 
> I'd like to thank all who responded.  I now have two possibilities.
> First, a friend of mine whom I mentioned this to patched bash (and someone
> else mentioned a patch for tcsh) that logs everything via syslog calls.
> Also, several people mentioned script(1), which does exactly what I need
> when wrapped in a little shell script.
> 
> So, thank you all for your assistance.
> -Adam
> 


From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 09:20:32 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA01412
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:20:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lmiexchange.liebhardt.com (mail.liebhardt.com [208.155.234.20])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01403
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:20:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by LMIEXCHANGE with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
	id <H6DX6CVT>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:18:01 -0500
Message-ID: <197F21A0A5BAD111A6DE00805F654C432C4D40@LMIEXCHANGE>
From: Steve DeBord <debord@liebhardt.com>
Reply-To: Information Technology <InformationTechnology@liebhardt.com>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Cc: Information Technology <InformationTechnology@liebhardt.com>
Subject: Using FTP to transfer ASCII text
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:17:55 -0500 
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

In configuring our FTP client software, we've set them all up in binary mode
as the default.  When transferring an ASCII text file from our Sun Ultra2
(Solaris 2.5.1) to the Win98 client in binary mode, the CR/LF character is
not interpreted properly.  The file on the client side has a black box
character where previously appeared a CR/LF.

Is this normal when transferring text in binary mode?  Anyone have a fix
idea, other than setting the FTP client to default to ASCII on the client
side?

Thanks in advance,

Steve DeBord

Systems Administrator
Liebhardt Inc.
Email : debord@liebhardt.com



From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 09:38:34 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA02355
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:38:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from storm.nando.net (storm.nando.net [152.52.2.139])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02346
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:38:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from majordomo@localhost)
	by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03681
	for ncsa-announce-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:53:57 -0400 (EDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: storm.nando.net: majordomo set sender to
	owner-ncsa-announce@nando.net using -f
Received: from lamb.sas.com (root@lamb.sas.com [192.35.83.8])
	by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03674
	for <ncsa-announce@nando.net>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:53:49 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mozart (mozart.unx.sas.com [192.58.184.8])
	by lamb.sas.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA10052
	for <ncsa-announce@nando.net>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:53:45 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ntgate01.pc.sas.com by mozart (5.65c/SAS/Domains/5-6-90)
	id AA10112; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:53:44 -0400
Received: by ntgate01.pc.sas.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
	id <21XAYQ6N>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:53:44 -0400
Message-Id: <FDAEB36E0478D211842100A0C9AB18CA010B43F2@ntmail06.pc.sas.com>
From: Heather Flanagan <heflan@wnt.sas.com>
To: "'ncsa-announce@nando.net'" <ncsa-announce@nando.net>
Cc: "'triangle.talks@usenet.sas.com'" <triangle.talks@usenet.sas.com>
Subject: NC*SA meeting, Monday, Apr. 12, 1999 - Using Multicast Traffic Ef
	fectively
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:53:41 -0400 
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="ISO-8859-1"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



The next meeting of the North Carolina System Administrators
organization (NC*SA) will be Monday, April 12, 1999, at 6pm.  Details
about the meeting and directions are provided in this note.  We hope
to see you there! 

                    NC*SA General Meeting
               6:00 p.m., Monday, April 12, 1999
                     Dreyfus Laboratory
                 Research Triangle Institute
                  Research Triangle Park, NC
                     (directions below)

       "Using Multicast Traffic Effectively in Your Network"
          by Bob Levy, Cisco Systems, <bolevy@cisco.com>

            
            --------------------------------------
Abstract:
  This presentation will cover many aspects of multicast networking,
  including:

  o  A comparison of the benefits of multicast versus other types of
     traffic (unicast/broadcast).
  o  Some applications that effectively use multicast.
  o  How to control multicasts on your network.
  o  How to configure multicast on switches and routers, and what
     protocols to use to accomplish this.
  o  Multicast protocols:  IGMP, CGMP, PIM/Sparse-Dense, and DVMRP.
  o  What is the best protocol to use, and how they actually work.

  A sample design covering many of the above points will also be
  discussed.


About the speaker:
  Bob Levy received his Bachelor of Science degree at
  Birmingham-Southern College in Birmingham, Alabama in 1989, and is
  currently a Systems Engineer at Cisco Systems here in the RTP area.
  He has been with Cisco for 3 1/2 years supporting the local hospitals
  and universities with their networking needs.  During his tenure with
  Cisco, Bob has become an expert in Layer2/Layer3 network design, has
  a specialty in multicast design and network management, and has
  recently received his CCIE.  He is currently in charge of the
  internal Layer2/Layer3 Lab in the Raleigh office.  For off hours
  activities, Bob enjoys fishing the rivers and streams around the
  area, and the occasional web surfing.


==============================

Other NC*SA administrivia:

Due to the wonderful generosity of our user community - not to 
mention the tenacity of one of the NC*SA board members - we have 
a special drawing being held this month!  We have DOOR PRIZES - 
one full pass, and three exhibition-only passes, to the Linux Expo 
being held in Raleigh next month.  We'll be drawing 4 names out of 
a hat for these prizes - but you can't win if you're not there!  

We're a bit stumped for what to offer you for the next few months' 
talks - any suggestions will be greatly appreciated!  What do _you_
want to hear about?

============================== 
 
Our meetings are free and open to anyone with an interest in the topic
of the evening.  We will be providing food and drink for the evening.
If you have any questions please contact: 

  Heather Flanagan 
  SAS Institute Inc. 
  SAS Campus Drive 
  Cary, NC  27513  
  (919) 677-8000 x5522
  heflan@unx.sas.com

==============================

For information about the NC System Administrators group, contact our
Majordomo mailing list server.  The "ncsa-discussion" mailing list has
been created to facilitate discussions of interest to system
administrators from the state of North Carolina.

Simply send email to "majordomo@nando.net":

        mail majordomo@nando.net
        Subject:

        subscribe ncsa-discussion

After subscribing, Majordomo will send you the help file and info file
for our mailing list.  These files contain instructions for retrieving
other files available to the NCSA organization (e.g.  the presentation
material from past technical programs are available for retrieval via
Majordomo!!) 

To unsubscribe from this meeting announcement list, send a message to the 
same address, with the following line in the body: 

        unsubscribe ncsa-announce

(Please note, if you are a member of sage-members@usenix.org, you will also
get a copy of these announcements.  I cannot unsubscribe you from that
list.)

==============================

Directions to Research Triangle Institute
(see also:  http://www.rti.org/images/campus.gif)

 From I-40 west of RTP (e.g. Chapel Hill):

  Get onto I-40 heading east.  Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham
  Freeway - North (towards Durham).  Stay in right lane.  Shift right as
  soon as possible after merging with traffic coming off I-40 westbound.

  Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road).  At top of exit,
  turn to the left.  (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you
  are going the wrong direction.)  After turning left onto Cornwallis,
  shift immediately to the right lane.  Take the second right onto East
  Institute Drive.  Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. 
  Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right.  Use the
  parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance.

 From I-40 east of RTP (e.g. Raleigh):

  Get onto I-40 heading west.  Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham
  Freeway - North (towards Durham).  Shift to rightmost lane as soon as
  possible Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road).  At top
  of exit, turn to the left.  (If you turn right and cross over the
  bridge, you are going the wrong direction.)  After turning left onto
  Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane.  Take the second
  right onto East Institute Drive.  Take the second right off of East
  Institute Drive.  Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on
  your right.  Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the
  main entrance.

 From north of RTP (e.g. Durham):

  Get onto NC-147 - Durham Freeway - south.  Exit at the Cornwallis Road
  exit.  At the top of the exit, turn left to cross over the bridge. 
  After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right
  lane.  Take the second right onto East Institute Drive.  Take the
  second right off of East Institute Drive.  Dreyfus Laboratory will be
  the first building on your right.  Use the parking lot in front of the
  Lab and enter at the main entrance.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Heather Flanagan			Associate Systems Programmer
Information Systems Consulting		SAS Institute, Inc.
(919)677-8000 x5522			heflan@unx.sas.com



From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 09:53:24 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA03395
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:53:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from relaywest.pinkertons.com ([208.242.193.3])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03385
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:53:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from usazexg001.whq.pinkertons.com ([192.168.0.11]) by
	relaywest.pinkertons.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.977.9);
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:47:27 -0700
Received: by usazexg001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3)
	id <2L6KZ88L>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:42:15 -0700
Message-ID: <5ED696D672E9D211ACE200805FA7A0DB20A9D0@usazexg001>
From: "Matthew Sparks (05-025)" <Matthew_Sparks@usa.Pinkertons.com>
To: "'merlyn@stonehenge.com'" <merlyn@stonehenge.com>, Graham Dunn
	<gdunn@ineural.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: User email monitoring
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:42:14 -0700 
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3)
Content-Type: text/plain
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


	merlyn@stonehenge.com wrote:
	"In the US, the ECPA prevents this, except under the authority
of law
	enforcement officers.  I'd check with an ECPA-aware lawyer
before
	proceeding."


	Actually the ECPA does no such thing. It prevents un-authorized
access to
	email or stored messaging information. The owner of the Computer
has full
	access to their own files. It also outlaws releasing that
information to the public.
	It does not prohibit accessing that data internally.

	Here is a link to the "ECPA"
	http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/ch121.html

	Email is not private. It does not have any of the protections
that snail-mail has.
	A lot of people think copyright law also protects email. It does
not.


	Matt Sparks
	Sr. UNIX Systems Administrator
	Pinkerton


 


From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 09:57:16 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA03639
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:57:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from claymoor.onyx.net (claymoor.onyx.net [194.176.71.33])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03598
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:57:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from arm10@localhost)
	by claymoor.onyx.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00941;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:50:39 +0100
Message-ID: <XFMail.990407175039.Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9904071040130.595-100000@hankhill>
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 17:50:39 +0100 (BST)
Organization: Onyx Internet
From: Adam Morris <Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
To: todd_herr@sra.com
Subject: re: ECPA
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Quickly checks contract...


On 07-Apr-99 Todd Herr wrote:
> set forth by the owner.  I don't think that companies engage in any kind 
> of secret spying on their employees either, but I do believe that most, 
> if not all, companies reserve the right to do so and state this right
> clearly in the fine print of whatever documents are signed by the 
> employee at the beginning of the period of performance for the employee.
> This paragraph is usually, if memory serves, geographically close to
> the paragraphs about intellectual property rights, the one that says 
> that the company owns all your ideas, and there's nothing you can do 
> about it.

Gosh, lucky me, I don't have any of those clauses in my contract.  

Seriously, one of my former bosses tried to persuade me that it didn't matter
whether it was there or not, and that the results of any work which I did, on my
own time, using my own resources, and not in competition with the company in any
way at all, was owned by the company.  I talked to a lawyer, and the general
manager, and... they said that that was drivel.  

I guess, it may depend.  But, my point was not to do with privacy of the
communications, but to do with whether the company trusted the individual.  I
would not want to work for a company that did not trust me as an employee. 
Equally I would not expect a company to employ people that they didn't trust.  
If you trust the employee, why do you want to read all of their email?  If you
don't trust them, then why employ them? 

Yours,

        Adam Morris.

- ----------------------------------
If this message isn't signed, it probably isn't me.
Adam Morris - Systems Engineer - Onyx Internet

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.  And littered with
sloppy analysis!

- ----------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNwuM3zxztoTO1QFNAQHoigQAzpiDzZv+o0DTBeDzmBINnggVvj3avhhl
YlpWrUMZhHbtGAGcHaJOj8bHnwBM44QuAAsksaWmyO0c1u/66SW2eeQNLkR+JbR1
C6HRumipopBd6iJzBCTlWS1Lo8L7Zmj6CwejGqJDpma3imSLmWbqKKvPUnoLQd33
9IbqVArq924=
=VeUS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 10:00:07 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03855
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:00:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from relaywest.pinkertons.com ([208.242.193.3])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03812
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:00:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from usazexg001.whq.pinkertons.com ([192.168.0.11]) by
	relaywest.pinkertons.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.977.9);
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:53:50 -0700
Received: by usazexg001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3)
	id <2L6KZ89F>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:48:38 -0700
Message-ID: <5ED696D672E9D211ACE200805FA7A0DB20A9D3@usazexg001>
From: "Matthew Sparks (05-025)" <Matthew_Sparks@usa.Pinkertons.com>
To: "'todd_herr@sra.com'" <todd_herr@sra.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: ECPA
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:48:37 -0700 
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3)
Content-Type: text/plain
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

As much as I hate to say it Todd you are 100% correct.
Matt Sparks

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Todd Herr [SMTP:herrt@hankhill.iisd.sra.com]
> Sent:	Wednesday, April 07, 1999 7:51 AM
> To:	sage-members@usenix.org
> Subject:	re: ECPA
> 
> Inadvertently deleted the original post on this; sorry.
> 
> I've been following the discussion regarding the privacy of 
> email in a detached manner, and while I am not an attorney, nor
> even particularly well-versed in legal matters, I wonder if we're
> not all missing a crucial point here.
> 
> While all employees of any particular organization have an expectation
> of privacy in their communications, be they oral, written, or
> electronic,
> I believe that their expectations here are misguided, if not flat-out
> wrong.  One who is in the employ of any organization, and who is
> making 
> use of resources owned by that corporation to communicate, has no
> right 
> to expect that his or her communications will be private, regardless
> of 
> whether or not the matter at hand is business-related or personal.  
> Remember, when one is at work, one is not in a public place, but
> rather
> one is in a privately "owned" space, and one is beholden to the rules
> set forth by the owner.  I don't think that companies engage in any
> kind 
> of secret spying on their employees either, but I do believe that
> most, 
> if not all, companies reserve the right to do so and state this right
> clearly in the fine print of whatever documents are signed by the 
> employee at the beginning of the period of performance for the
> employee.
> This paragraph is usually, if memory serves, geographically close to
> the paragraphs about intellectual property rights, the one that says 
> that the company owns all your ideas, and there's nothing you can do 
> about it.
> 
> I'll be over here, putting on my asbestos suit now...
> 
> -- 
> Todd Herr                                       todd_herr@sra.com
> Unix Systems Administrator, SRA International.  http://www.sra.com
> 
>    Hypocrisy bothers me, but you shouldn't let it bother you.


From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 10:07:12 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA04305
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:07:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from aldebaran.sra.com (aldebaran.sra.com [163.252.31.31])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04294
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:07:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from hankhill.iisd.sra.com (hankhill.iisd.sra.com [163.252.22.23])
	by aldebaran.sra.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11632;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:04:23 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost (herrt@localhost)
	by hankhill.iisd.sra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02187;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:03:15 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:03:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Todd Herr <herrt@hankhill.iisd.sra.com>
Reply-To: todd_herr@sra.com
To: "Matthew Sparks (05-025)" <Matthew_Sparks@usa.Pinkertons.com>
cc: "'todd_herr@sra.com'" <todd_herr@sra.com>, sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: RE: ECPA
In-Reply-To: <5ED696D672E9D211ACE200805FA7A0DB20A9D3@usazexg001>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9904071259420.595-100000@hankhill>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Thank you, Matthew, but let me clarify one thing, before I am
branded the demon spawn of Satan and permanently killfiled by most
members of this esteemed list:

My posting below represents my belief of the policy that many 
companies put into place with regard to employees' rights to 
privacy.  However, in no way do I speak of this policy in any
manner except to mention my perception of its existence.  My writings
on this subject are not to be interpreted in any way as any kind
of endorsement nor opposition of these policies, if they exist
as I believe them to.

At 09:48 on Apr 7, Matthew Sparks (05-025) wrote:

> As much as I hate to say it Todd you are 100% correct.
> Matt Sparks
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Todd Herr [SMTP:herrt@hankhill.iisd.sra.com]
> > Sent:	Wednesday, April 07, 1999 7:51 AM
> > To:	sage-members@usenix.org
> > Subject:	re: ECPA
> > 
> > Inadvertently deleted the original post on this; sorry.
> > 
> > I've been following the discussion regarding the privacy of 
> > email in a detached manner, and while I am not an attorney, nor
> > even particularly well-versed in legal matters, I wonder if we're
> > not all missing a crucial point here.
> > 
> > While all employees of any particular organization have an expectation
> > of privacy in their communications, be they oral, written, or
> > electronic,
> > I believe that their expectations here are misguided, if not flat-out
> > wrong.  One who is in the employ of any organization, and who is
> > making 
> > use of resources owned by that corporation to communicate, has no
> > right 
> > to expect that his or her communications will be private, regardless
> > of 
> > whether or not the matter at hand is business-related or personal.  
> > Remember, when one is at work, one is not in a public place, but
> > rather
> > one is in a privately "owned" space, and one is beholden to the rules
> > set forth by the owner.  I don't think that companies engage in any
> > kind 
> > of secret spying on their employees either, but I do believe that
> > most, 
> > if not all, companies reserve the right to do so and state this right
> > clearly in the fine print of whatever documents are signed by the 
> > employee at the beginning of the period of performance for the
> > employee.
> > This paragraph is usually, if memory serves, geographically close to
> > the paragraphs about intellectual property rights, the one that says 
> > that the company owns all your ideas, and there's nothing you can do 
> > about it.
> > 
> > I'll be over here, putting on my asbestos suit now...
> > 
> > -- 
> > Todd Herr                                       todd_herr@sra.com
> > Unix Systems Administrator, SRA International.  http://www.sra.com
> > 
> >    Hypocrisy bothers me, but you shouldn't let it bother you.
> 

-- 
Todd Herr                                       todd_herr@sra.com
Unix Systems Administrator, SRA International.  http://www.sra.com

   Hypocrisy bothers me, but you shouldn't let it bother you.



From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 10:20:55 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA05210
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:20:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lighthouse-el0.sprintcorp.com (lighthouse.sprintcorp.com
	[144.230.241.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA05201
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:20:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [144.230.9.9] by lighthouse-el0.sprintcorp.com
	via smtpd (for [131.106.3.1]) with SMTP; 7 Apr 1999 17:18:41 UT
Received: from atd.sprintcorp.com (iowa [144.230.9.20])
	by atdmail.atd.sprintcorp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-eslingc) with ESMTP id
	MAA13353; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:14:38 -0500 (CDT)
Message-ID: <370B9283.1ED9C26A@atd.sprintcorp.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 12:14:43 -0500
From: Mark Lundy <mlundy@atd.sprintcorp.com>
Organization: Sprint
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Matthew Landry <mbl@lelnet.com>
CC: "Petersen, Dwight" <dpeters@nswc.navy.mil>,
	"'sage-members@usenix.org'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: ECPA
References: <31A48D25E618D211820700A0C9B4143D46E028@luxor.nswc.navy.mil>
	<19990407111501.G20685@conch.msen.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Matthew Landry wrote:

>         More to the point, SAGE is an organization of and for sysadmins,
> and even though legal issues sometimes impact the profession, that doesn't
> mean it should be SAGE's function to provide legal advice or assistance.

Point well-taken.  I also agree with Matthew that SAGE should definitely
not be in the business of hiring attorneys to provide legal advice.

However, certainly, SAGE exists as a point of contact for assistance
in any matter concerning system admin.  I believe it should also be
there for assistance of learning more about where to go or what
questions /issues commonly come up in regard to this particular issue,
legal in nature as it may be.

Many, many groups exist to provide reference and further information
contacts to members.  The smart ones who also want to provide assistance
on matters which are legal in nature, put a disclaimer on the pages
stating, "This is not nor should be contrued as legal advice.  Consult
an attorney for specific legal advice."   With that
type od discliamer, it should be part of SAGE's assistance to provide
refernce points, FAQs, etc. for assistance on this matter as well as all
others of concern to sysadmins.

Mark Lundy


From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 10:39:22 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA06222
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:39:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from web309.yahoomail.com (web310.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.106])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA06210
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:39:13 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <19990407174010.29472.rocketmail@web309.yahoomail.com>
Received: from [12.10.17.199] by web310.yahoomail.com;
	Wed, 07 Apr 1999 10:40:10 PDT
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:40:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dave Elfering <aroundomaha@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ECPA
To: "Petersen, Dwight" <dpeters@nswc.navy.mil>,
	"'sage-members@usenix.org'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

I think this is too specific to some localities to have a generic form.
Here in Nebraska for instance, which isn't a right to work state the
issue seems to be fairly simple. If my employer wants email recorded
and read, and if they don't like what you're doing/saying.... you are
history.

Personally, I assume that someone or several someones are reading
*anything* I send.

Dave Elfering
aroundomaha@yahoo.com

--- "Petersen, Dwight" <dpeters@nswc.navy.mil> wrote:
> Do we have an attorney?  I realize that this would
> not benefit members
> outside the US.  But SysAdmins are not infrequently
> asked to do things like
> read other peoples email.  It would be a good thing
> to have a legal opinion
> or two floating around that we could snag off the
> sage page and throw up to
> management when they ask us to go poking around in
> peoples email.  What do
> you think?
> 

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 11:21:16 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA08663
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:21:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ulysses.noc.ntua.gr (ulysses.noc.ntua.gr [147.102.222.230])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08654
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:21:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from dblab.ece.ntua.gr (ithaca.dbnet.ece.ntua.gr [147.102.12.1])
	by ulysses.noc.ntua.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA28933;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 21:18:59 +0300 (EET DST)
Received: from hawk.dbnet.ece.ntua.gr (hawk.dbnet.ece.ntua.gr [147.102.12.8])
	by dblab.ece.ntua.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14708;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 21:18:41 +0300 (EEST)
Received: (from george@localhost)
	by hawk.dbnet.ece.ntua.gr (8.9.3/8.9.2) id UAA07814;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 20:18:56 +0300 (EEST)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 20:18:56 +0300
From: Yiorgos Adamopoulos <adamo@dblab.ece.ntua.gr>
To: Information Technology <InformationTechnology@liebhardt.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Using FTP to transfer ASCII text
Message-ID: <19990407201856.B7774@dblab.ece.ntua.gr>
Reply-To: adamo@dblab.ece.ntua.gr
References: <197F21A0A5BAD111A6DE00805F654C432C4D40@LMIEXCHANGE>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i
In-Reply-To: <197F21A0A5BAD111A6DE00805F654C432C4D40@LMIEXCHANGE>;
	from Steve DeBord on Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 11:17:55AM -0500
X-Organization: Knowledge and Data Base Systems Laboratory,
	National Technical University of Athens, GREECE
X-URL: http://tupac.net/hood/adamo
X-Alt-Email: adamo@ieee.org
X-Work-Phone: +30-1-772-1-436
X-Work-FAX: +30-1-772-1-442
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

>From RFC959:

3.1.1.3.  IMAGE TYPE

            The data are sent as contiguous bits which, for transfer,
            are packed into the 8-bit transfer bytes.  The receiving
            site must store the data as contiguous bits.

What (I assume) you mean, is that text files created on the Sun, cannot be read
with notepad.exe (hint: edit can read them properly).

This simply happens because:

1. MSDOS .txt is different than UNIX .txt (OK, there is *no* such thing in
Unix one could say)

2. The black box shows notepad.exe's inability to handle anything else than
MSDOS .txt

Your file is not destroyed, it is simply transefered intact (where in ASCII
mode the conversion W98 require should happen).


--
Yiorgos Adamopoulos         -- #include <std/disclaimer.h>
adamo@dblab.ece.ntua.gr     -- Knowledge and Data Base Systems Laboratory, NTUA

On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 11:17:55AM -0500, Steve DeBord wrote:
> In configuring our FTP client software, we've set them all up in binary mode
> as the default.  When transferring an ASCII text file from our Sun Ultra2
> (Solaris 2.5.1) to the Win98 client in binary mode, the CR/LF character is
> not interpreted properly.  The file on the client side has a black box
> character where previously appeared a CR/LF.
> 
> Is this normal when transferring text in binary mode?  Anyone have a fix
> idea, other than setting the FTP client to default to ASCII on the client
> side?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Steve DeBord
> 
> Systems Administrator
> Liebhardt Inc.
> Email : debord@liebhardt.com


From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 11:35:15 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA09644
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:35:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from relay.nswc.navy.mil (relay.nswc.navy.mil [128.38.1.41])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09554
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:34:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from root@localhost)
	by relay.nswc.navy.mil (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id OAA24448
	for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:33:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from luxor.nswc.navy.mil (luxor.nswc.navy.mil [128.38.165.100])
	by relay.nswc.navy.mil (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24439
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:33:03 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by luxor.nswc.navy.mil with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
	id <HYVFKDMJ>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:35:31 -0400
Message-ID: <31A48D25E618D211820700A0C9B4143D46E02A@luxor.nswc.navy.mil>
From: "Petersen, Dwight" <dpeters@nswc.navy.mil>
To: "'sage-members@usenix.org'" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: RE: ECPA
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:35:26 -0400 
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


	Sorry to hear things seem so bleak on the employment front in Omaha.
Hereabouts, System Administrators are fairly hard to come by and no one
would dream of precipitously getting rid of one.
	However, I seldom find it difficult to convince my bosses that they
should do what is in their own best interest.  When I do so, I like to have
convincing evidence of just what their interest are.  A legal opinion, or
brief, would be one such item.  I don't have time or inclination to go look
up precedents myself, so an opinion that an employer could pass to the
company legal department would be an effective tool.  It would also
establish some credibility for a sysadmin who worked in an environment where
he or she could be "history" for trying to bring a little sanity to the work
place.  An opinion that the company legal department endorsed would go a
long way toward establishing credibility for that sysadmin.  The next time
management had a screwy idea they might discuss it with the sysadmin staff
before the decision was made.



		From:	Dave Elfering [mailto:aroundomaha@yahoo.com]

		I think this is too specific to some localities to have a
generic form.
		Here in Nebraska for instance, which isn't a right to work
state the
		issue seems to be fairly simple. If my employer wants email
recorded
		and read, and if they don't like what you're
doing/saying.... you are
		history.
		 




From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 11:56:32 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA10783
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:56:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pneumatic-tube.sgi.com (pneumatic-tube.sgi.com [204.94.214.22])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10774
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:56:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from rock.csd.sgi.com (fddi-rock.csd.sgi.com [150.166.9.10]) by
	pneumatic-tube.sgi.com
	(980309.SGI.8.8.8-aspam-6.2/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id
	LAA1542353; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:54:16 -0700 (PDT)
	mail_from (jd@jimd.csd.sgi.com)
Received: from jimd.csd.sgi.com (jimd.csd.sgi.com [150.166.144.65])
	by rock.csd.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF)
	via ESMTP id LAA31655; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:54:09 -0700 (PDT)
	mail_from (jd@jimd.csd.sgi.com)
Received: from jimd.csd.sgi.com (localhost.csd.sgi.com [127.0.0.1]) by
	jimd.csd.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP
	id LAA45864; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:54:03 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <370BA9CB.C7D2BB01@jimd.csd.sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 11:54:03 -0700
From: Jim Dodd <jd@jimd.csd.sgi.com>
Organization: csd.sgi.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX 6.5 IP32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Information Technology <InformationTechnology@liebhardt.com>
CC: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: Using FTP to transfer ASCII text
References: <197F21A0A5BAD111A6DE00805F654C432C4D40@LMIEXCHANGE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Microsoft OSs divide text files into lines using the CR/LF has you have
indicated. when in text mode, ftp will read in each line realizing that
both characters are used for the line break. But, when you are in binary
mode it does not assign any importance to control characters.

Once the file gets to the UNIX box at the other end, ascii files are
broken into lines using only the LF character. So if you vi a MS file,
you will see that every line ends with a ^M which is a CR character. If
you use other means to view it, it may be shown as a box to indicate a
non printable character. 

So, the answer is yes, this is normal. I am not sure about suns but many
platforms have utilities that will convert from dos to unxi format. If
you do not have such a utility, use sed to strip the training ^M.

Steve DeBord wrote:
> 
> In configuring our FTP client software, we've set them all up in binary mode
> as the default.  When transferring an ASCII text file from our Sun Ultra2
> (Solaris 2.5.1) to the Win98 client in binary mode, the CR/LF character is
> not interpreted properly.  The file on the client side has a black box
> character where previously appeared a CR/LF.
> 
> Is this normal when transferring text in binary mode?  Anyone have a fix
> idea, other than setting the FTP client to default to ASCII on the client
> side?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Steve DeBord
> 
> Systems Administrator
> Liebhardt Inc.
> Email : debord@liebhardt.com


From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 12:16:09 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA11941
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:16:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from minerva.psc.edu (minerva.psc.edu [128.182.62.121])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11932
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:16:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (ecf@localhost) by minerva.psc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with
	SMTP id PAA07642 for <sage-members@usenix.org>;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:13:20 -0400
Message-Id: <199904071913.PAA07642@minerva.psc.edu>
X-Authentication-Warning: minerva.psc.edu: ecf@localhost didn't use HELO
	protocol
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: ECPA 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 07 Apr 1999 10:51:07 EDT."
	<Pine.GSO.4.10.9904071040130.595-100000@hankhill> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 15:13:19 -0400
From: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Actually, Todd, you're quite correct in many cases.

I also think that the issue may become one of professional ethics and/or
personal ethics.

At LISA last year Lee Damon presented a terrific tutorial/seminar on ethics for
systems administrators.  Among the things discussed were:

 - What do you do when your boss/company demands that you do something you find
unethical?
  - What do you do if your boss/company demands that you do something that may
be illegal?

Sometimes the answer is, if your company policy is, 'We own your butt' you may
be required to do it or be fired.  Sometimes company policies can protect you
if you get a demand you think is unreasonable, unethical or illegal.

Sometimes it gets into personal ethics.  If _you_ find it unethical you have a
bunch of options. You can try reasoning, and see if they will put the request
in writing - which is also a CYA for you.  You can flat out say, 'no', on the
theory that you wouldn't want to work for a company/boss who wants you to be
unethical.  Or you can put your own ethics aside for your paycheck and just do it.  

A lot of times, just like everyday ethics, it's not a black and white thing.
In the end I think we all have to use our best judgement.


(Also remember that SAGE is rewriting the Ethics Code but the existant draft is
well worth checking out, if you haven't already.)


e.

----------------------------------------------------------------
     ecf@psc.edu     Esther Filderman    moose+@cmu.edu
           Senior System Mangler & News Dominatrix  
               Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center




From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 12:41:01 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA13504
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:41:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from yorktown.paranet.com (yorktown.paranet.com [199.164.131.34])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13451
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:40:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by yorktown.paranet.com; id OAA01382;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:38:47 -0500 (CDT)
Received: from farragut.srv.paranet.com(172.16.3.35) by yorktown.paranet.com
	via smap (V2.0) id xma000807; Wed, 7 Apr 99 14:37:39 -0500
Received: from sugarfoot (dhcp-4-213.corp.paranet.com [172.16.4.213]) by
	farragut.srv.paranet.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA08307;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:35:56 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <4.1.19990407140837.00a712a0@pop.srv.paranet.com>
X-Sender: bamorris@pop.srv.paranet.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 14:27:01 -0500
To: Adam Morris <Adam.Morris@onyx.net>, todd_herr@sra.com
From: Brad Morrison <bamorris@sprintparanet.com>
Subject: re: ECPA
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.990407175039.Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9904071040130.595-100000@hankhill>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

At 05:50 PM 4/7/99 +0100, Adam Morris wrote:

>Gosh, lucky me, I don't have any of those clauses [about the company owning
>the resources and therefore owning the content, to wit, your e:mail and
any other >information you store there] in my contract.

When I took Driver's Ed in high school, the lesson in which the instructor
introduced the concept of the "blind spots" inherent in the design of
modern automobiles garnered a similar reply:

Student: What do you mean, I can't drive in someone else's blind spot?
Teacher: You can--it's just not a good idea.  He or she may not know to
               check the blind spots before changing lanes, and might hit you
               inadvertently.
Student: Then it's his fault!  He'll get a ticket, and I'll sue!
Teacher: All right, then, but in the meantime, your car is damaged--
Student: And his insurance has to pay for it!
Teacher: Yes, but you're still inconvenienced.
Student: I don't care!  I'm right!  He's wrong!

By the same token, you may indeed win the privacy case in the courts.
Maybe you'll eventually win based on your contract, or maybe the judge will
sympathize on moral merit alone.  It doesn't matter--it's just not a wise
practice, because you risk inconvenience, at the very least, and possibly
lots of money and time.  Just because the information is generated,
modified, received, transmitted, stored, etc. on a computer doesn't change
the fact that it's your employer's stuff.

Would you take a bunch of legal pads from your office supply
closet/room/bunker, record/revise/store personal information on them (using
pens/pencils/highlighters from the same supply closet), keep the
information in "your" desk--and then expect that information to remain private?

Wait... I forgot, most people think that their employers' office supplies
belong to them once they start keeping them on "their" desks.

I agree with Todd.  I don't like it, but being employed means that you
either do what they say or go somewhere else.

>...my point was not to do with privacy of the
>communications, but to do with whether the company trusted the individual.  I
>would not want to work for a company that did not trust me as an employee. 
>Equally I would not expect a company to employ people that they didn't
trust.  
>If you trust the employee, why do you want to read all of their email?  If you
>don't trust them, then why employ them?

Your point is well-taken.  Employers would do well to follow your advice.
Even if they did, though, when push comes to shove, they must protect their
business, regardless of whether the protection is morally right or not.
Many activities protected by our legal system are immoral, unfair, even stupid.
--
"And though hard be the task, keep a stiff upper lip." -- Phoebe Cary
Brad Morrison, Sprint Paranet. Pager: (800) PAGE-FAX, PIN 382-3040
Company Line: (800) 752-3475 / Direct Line: (713) 892-3291
"Press to test."
(click)
"Release to detonate."



From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 13:49:28 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA17666
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:49:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from yorktown.paranet.com (yorktown.paranet.com [199.164.131.34])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17655
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:49:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by yorktown.paranet.com; id PAA27868;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:47:15 -0500 (CDT)
Received: from farragut.srv.paranet.com(172.16.3.35) by yorktown.paranet.com
	via smap (V2.0) id xma027544; Wed, 7 Apr 99 15:46:24 -0500
Received: from sugarfoot (dhcp-4-213.corp.paranet.com [172.16.4.213]) by
	farragut.srv.paranet.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA07410;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:46:22 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <4.1.19990407154120.00a6c240@pop.srv.paranet.com>
X-Sender: bamorris@pop.srv.paranet.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 15:45:32 -0500
To: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>, sage-members@usenix.org
From: Brad Morrison <bamorris@sprintparanet.com>
Subject: Re: ECPA 
In-Reply-To: <199904071913.PAA07642@minerva.psc.edu>
References: <Your message of "Wed, 07 Apr 1999 10:51:07 EDT."
	<Pine.GSO.4.10.9904071040130.595-100000@hankhill>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

At 03:13 PM 4/7/99 -0400, Esther Filderman referred rather handily to Lee's
ethics tutorial from LISA XII:
> - What do you do when your boss/company demands that you do
>    something you find unethical?
>  - What do you do if your boss/company demands that you do
>     something that may be illegal?

>Sometimes the answer is, if your company policy is, 'We own your butt' you may
>be required to do it or be fired.

You forgot, "You can quit."  Why do we do this, anyway?  Putting up with
users who call with inane requests, managers who just don't get it, vendors
that... don't get me started.  I would hope that it's not just for the
money.  It's vital to make a living (wow, a tautology!), but compromising
principles just isn't worth it.  I learned the hard way.  You should trust
your heart, but that does *not* mean that you can't still use your head.
--
"And though hard be the task, keep a stiff upper lip." -- Phoebe Cary
Brad Morrison, Sprint Paranet. Pager: (800) PAGE-FAX, PIN 382-3040
Company Line: (800) 752-3475 / Direct Line: (713) 892-3291
"Press to test."
(click)
"Release to detonate."



From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 15:40:50 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA23988
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:40:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pox.remarque.org (pox.remarque.org [206.80.1.43])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23979
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:40:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from remarque.org (old.remarque.org [206.80.1.42])
	by pox.remarque.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA20618;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:38:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from strata@localhost) by remarque.org (8.8.5/8.8.8) id PAA22514;
	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:38:33 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 99 15:38:33 PDT
From: strata@virtual.net
Reply-To: strata@virtual.net
To: BayLISA Announcements <baylisa-announce@baylisa.org>
Subject: (event 4/15) BayLISA Monthly: 4/15/1999: Paul Vixie: "Fighting Spam"
	& "DNS Futures"
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.923524713.strata@remarque.org>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

      BayLISA Monthly Technical Talk & General Meeting

--------
Thursday, 15 April, 1999: "Fighting Spam" & "DNS Futures", Paul Vixie and ISC

Paul Vixie will give two project status reports: 

First, he will talk about the Great War On SPAM(tm) and introduce the staff 
of MAPS, LLC (the Mail Abuse Prevention System). A short history of the War 
will be orated, as well as a score card by which the Other Involved Parties 
can be identified. 

Second, he will talk about EDNS, DNSSEC, and BIND-9, and introduce the rest 
of the fine folks from ISC, Inc (the Internet Software Consortium). Fun and 
informal! 

--------

BayLISA meets every month on the 3rd Thursday of the month.  A short period
of announcements of general interest to the sysadmin community is presented,
followed by a technical talk.  Anyone may make an announcement; typical are
upcoming presentations, user group meetings, employment offers, etc.

For further information on BayLISA, check out our web site:
http://www.baylisa.org/

Directions and details about the current meeting and future events:
http://www.baylisa.org/events/

BayLISA makes video tapes of the meetings available to members.  Tape library
is often available at the general meeting, or for more information on 
available videos, please send email to "video@baylisa.org".

If you have suggestions for speakers, or would like to volunteer to present
a talk at one of our meetings, please email the Board and Working Group at
"blw@baylisa.org".  Thanks!

--------


===========================================================================
Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ]			 strata@virtual.net
VirtualNet Consulting				 http://www.virtual.net/
SAGE Level IV Unix Admin specializing in commercial-scale Internet services
===========================================================================


From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 16:19:13 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA26441
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:19:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from alpha.xerox.com (firewall-user@alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA26432
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:19:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from thelma.parc.xerox.com ([13.1.100.28]) by alpha.xerox.com with
	SMTP id <61763(1)>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:17:00 PDT
Received: from defenestrate ([13.1.100.179]) by thelma.parc.xerox.com with
	SMTP id <101367>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:16:58 PDT
Message-Id: <4.1.19990407160214.00bf0cd0@thelma.parc.xerox.com>
X-Sender: farrar@thelma.parc.xerox.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:12:41 PDT
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Keith Farrar <farrar@parc.xerox.com>
Subject: Re: ECPA 
In-Reply-To: <199904071913.PAA07642@minerva.psc.edu>
Illegal-Object: Syntax error in References: value found on
	thelma.parc.xerox.com: References:	<Yourmessage of"Wed,
	07 Apr 1999 10:51:07 EDT."
	<Pine.GSO.4.10.9904071040130.595-100000@hankhill>
	^-illegal end of message identification
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

At 12:13 PM 4/7/99 -0700, Esther Filderman wrote:
>  - What do you do if your boss/company demands that you do something 
> that may be illegal?

Reality check:
I would much prefer (temporary) unemployment to arrest and imprisonment.

	-kaf



From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 18:08:02 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01228
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 18:08:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from msg.ucsf.edu (msg.ucsf.EDU [128.218.69.41])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01219
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 18:07:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (matt@localhost)
	by msg.ucsf.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA485120
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 18:05:54 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 18:05:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matt Harrington <matt@msg.ucsf.edu>
Reply-To: Matt Harrington <matt@msg.ucsf.edu>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Seeking opinions on Network Attached Storage
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.96.990407173939.438730W-100000@msg.ucsf.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



I'm in the market for a product just like the NetApp F720 filer, except at
a lower cost.  I'm hoping that I can get some suggestions on alternative
products from the mailing list.  The device will be used to store UNIX
home directories and there will be about 50 UNIX clients, mostly SGI and
DEC OSF/1.  There are no databases or tricky things like that.  Files are
a few MB in size, at most.  I have about $20k to spend on an "empty"
system, that is to say, something with everything but the drives.

Requirements:

	- NFS.  CIFS is not needed.
	- scalable to 300-400GB
	- gigabit ethernet support now or in the near future
	- RAID 4 or 5
	- journaled filesystem
	- quick reboot time
	- painless administration
	- UNIX quotas
	- relatively inexpensive drives (NetApp charges us $2625 for
		a 18GB Seagate FC-AL drive.  Street price is under
		$1000.)
	- can be backed up with Legato NetWorker 4.2.5-B over the network
	- Reasonable yearly support costs
	
Would be very nice:

	- Can dynamically add drives to existing RAIDset.  So, if I have
		an extra $1000 I can add another 18GB to the set and it
		will restripe itself without much work on my part.
	- A "snapshot" feature.  Saves a read only copy of the filesystem
		so that you can easily retrieve an accidentally deleted
		file.
	- Would be great if I can use 24 wide differential drives I
	 	already have in a JBOD system.  (These wouldn't do RAID).
	- FibreChannel drives would be cool.
	- Would be great if they kept west coast business hours.

Products and companies I know about:

	Network Appliance - F720
	Nitech - XRP 1000
	ProCom - NetFORCE 2200
	Network Storage Solutions (NSS) - SPANstor
	MetaStor - SH7000/SH7400
	Artecon - Lynx NSS
	Auspex

The Nitech XRP 1000 is pretty sweet.  Not expensive.  Drives are only
$900.  But, it doesn't permit dynamic installation of drives into the
existing RAIDset, and I think they're working out bugs in their quota
implementation.

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Matt Harrington
University of California San Francisco
phone/fax 415-476-4628




From sage-members-owner  Wed Apr  7 19:51:10 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA05892
	for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:51:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from cs882249-a.mtag1.on.wave.home.com
	(root@24.64.164.73.on.wave.home.com [24.64.164.73])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA05883
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:51:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (user: 'acli', uid#852) by acli.interlog.com id
	<8182-3956>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:48:44 -0400
Message-ID: <19990407224843.A12747@acli.interlog.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:48:43 -0400
From: Ambrose Li <acli@acli.interlog.com>
To: Brad Morrison <bamorris@sprintparanet.com>,
	Adam Morris <Adam.Morris@onyx.net>, todd_herr@sra.com
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: ECPA
References: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9904071040130.595-100000@hankhill>
	<XFMail.990407175039.Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
	<4.1.19990407140837.00a712a0@pop.srv.paranet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990407140837.00a712a0@pop.srv.paranet.com>;
	from Brad Morrison on Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 02:27:01PM -0500
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 02:27:01PM -0500, Brad Morrison wrote:
> 
> Would you take a bunch of legal pads from your office supply
> closet/room/bunker, record/revise/store personal information on them (using
> pens/pencils/highlighters from the same supply closet), keep the
> information in "your" desk--and then expect that information to remain private?
> 

Where I work recently posted a memo to that effect. What is the
employees' reaction? Well, most of us also bring in personal
things from home in order to do our work (ranging from pens and
pencils to cameras or CDROM drives to laser printers to cars).
"Well, what if OUR things are stolen or damaged in the office?"
was the general reaction.

Of course, finding a new job is a time-consuming job in itself.
And most that left probably left for other reasons in addition
to that memo.

> Wait... I forgot, most people think that their employers' office supplies
> belong to them once they start keeping them on "their" desks.

Does this mean that employers also generally think that the
employee's stuff belong to them once the stuff enters "their"
building? I suppose so? No?

-- 
Ambrose Li <ai337@freenet.toronto.on.ca> http://www.netwinder.org/~acli/
             Home: <acli@interlog.com> / Work: <email address removed>

 "Dazed and confused, but trying to continue" - Linux kernel (traps.c)


From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 03:49:00 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA03087
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 03:49:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from claymoor.onyx.net (claymoor.onyx.net [194.176.71.33])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03078
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 03:48:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from arm10@localhost)
	by claymoor.onyx.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00408;
	Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:45:35 +0100
Message-ID: <XFMail.990408124534.Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990407140837.00a712a0@pop.srv.paranet.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 12:45:34 +0100 (BST)
Organization: Onyx Internet
From: Adam Morris <Adam.Morris@onyx.net>
To: Brad Morrison <bamorris@sprintparanet.com>
Subject: re: ECPA
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org, todd_herr@sra.com
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


On 07-Apr-99 Brad Morrison wrote:
> 
> By the same token, you may indeed win the privacy case in the courts.
> Maybe you'll eventually win based on your contract, or maybe the judge will
> sympathize on moral merit alone.  It doesn't matter--it's just not a wise
> practice, because you risk inconvenience, at the very least, and possibly
> lots of money and time.  Just because the information is generated,
> modified, received, transmitted, stored, etc. on a computer doesn't change
> the fact that it's your employer's stuff.
> 

Actually, I'm not sure what the situation legally here is.  From memory, I
think that I am legally responsible for my email, and the company is not. 
However, I'm in the UK and not the US.  The company is not expected to take any
legal responsibility for it.  I wasn't actually using the fact that these
clauses are not in my contract to argue that they were invalid.  The suggestion
of monitoring all staff e-mail was brought up once.  The answer came back from
senior management that if they couldn't trust people they wouldn't be employing
them.  This was dropped almost as quickly as it was brought up.

> 
> I agree with Todd.  I don't like it, but being employed means that you
> either do what they say or go somewhere else.
> 

Thoughts of concentration camps, and guards saying "I was just following
orders" spring to mind...  If the action is illegal then should you be doing
it?  I personally think not.  If it is against your personal ethics but
legal then it is a much harder question to deal with.  So, I would suggest that
if this is legal, then you should raise the technical issues with management...
storage space etc, and if they insist on it and are going to foot the bill then
you should insist that ALL employees are made aware of this policy, and that
there are guidelines as to what can be done with the archived mail and by who.

Anyway, I'm ranting now, so I'd better stop... :-)

Adam

- ----------------------------------
If this message isn't signed, it probably isn't me.
Adam Morris - Systems Engineer - Onyx Internet

"No, `Eureka' is Greek for `This bath is too hot.'"
                -- Dr. Who

- ----------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNwyW3jxztoTO1QFNAQEJpgP9G+4LJ53ed7okghbpT05FKwVhtMgjP+hZ
UCsMqFoS1dhmokKtwfdfP54txEmwzlKGOgLNTuOvai4JRY2ed1vLSeDByLgHOjWu
+9sptCFSKy7VdGoNB0/RdfYxtmRhbmJuVxzCZ+eqx1M2PVfTZw0/cKIJo9SP4M53
2BDJMK+n4R8=
=Fznz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 05:47:16 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA09412
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 05:47:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail4.visi.net (geneva.visi.net [206.246.194.4])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA09399
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 05:47:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from sellers.visi.net (ppp01.ts1-3.NewportNews.visi.net
	[209.8.197.65]) by mail4.visi.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id
	IAA16068; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 08:52:51 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990408084527.00711548@smtp.visi.net>
X-Sender: sellers@smtp.visi.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 08:45:27 -0400
To: Information Technology <InformationTechnology@liebhardt.com>
From: Bill & Theresa Sellers <sellers@visi.net>
Subject: Re: Using FTP to transfer ASCII text
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
In-Reply-To: <197F21A0A5BAD111A6DE00805F654C432C4D40@LMIEXCHANGE>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk



Take a look at the unix2dos and dos2unix commands.  I am fairly certain that 
these commands are in all versions of Solaris.  To make sure you have the 
package installed, run pkginfo piped thru grep, and look for SUNWesu
(Extended 
System Utilities).

Regards,
Bill Sellers

At 11:17 AM 4/7/99 -0500, Steve DeBord wrote:
>In configuring our FTP client software, we've set them all up in binary mode
>as the default.  When transferring an ASCII text file from our Sun Ultra2
>(Solaris 2.5.1) to the Win98 client in binary mode, the CR/LF character is
>not interpreted properly.  The file on the client side has a black box
>character where previously appeared a CR/LF.



From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 07:15:17 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA13852
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 07:15:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from FNAL.FNAL.Gov (fnal.fnal.gov [131.225.9.8])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA13835
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 07:15:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bel-kwinth.fnal.gov ("port 27152"@bel-kwinth.fnal.gov)
	by FNAL.FNAL.GOV (PMDF V5.1-12 #3998)
	with ESMTP id <01J9SA3U73A800077X@FNAL.FNAL.GOV> for
	sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:12:54 -0500 CDT
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 09:12:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: mengel@fnal.gov
Subject: Re: ECPA
In-reply-to: <4.1.19990407160214.00bf0cd0@thelma.parc.xerox.com>
To: Keith Farrar <farrar@parc.xerox.com>
Cc: sage-members@usenix.org
Reply-to: mengel@fnal.gov
Message-id: <01J9SA3W0EIA00077X@FNAL.FNAL.GOV>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


> At 12:13 PM 4/7/99 -0700, Esther Filderman wrote:
>>  - What do you do if your boss/company demands that you do something 
>> that may be illegal?

How about contacting your State's Attorney's office?  They might offer
you immunity for information ,etc.





From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 07:30:38 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA14579
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 07:30:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from kodakr.kodak.com (kodakr.kodak.com [192.232.119.69])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA14570
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 07:30:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from doolittle.ycc.Kodak.COM (doolittle.ycc.Kodak.COM [129.126.74.2])
	by kodakr.kodak.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA12620
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:27:58 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ycc.kodak.com (ep-psg-sunlite.ycc.Kodak.COM [129.126.76.180])
	by doolittle.ycc.Kodak.COM (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA15902;
	Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:25:55 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <370CBCD0.416EA6FF@ycc.kodak.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 10:27:29 -0400
From: "William D. Redman" <wredman@Kodak.COM>
Reply-To: wredman@Kodak.COM
Organization: Product Software Goup
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "sage-members@usenix.org" <sage-members@usenix.org>, wredman@ycc.kodak.com
Subject: System Messages Review
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

How often do you monitor the messages from  your servers? I was talking
to an individual and they
reviewed them periodically, ~weekly to ~monthly.

I thought this was infrequent, as we do ours daily. We have 13 servers,
and rotate the logs daily. The
environment is predominantly software development and heterogeneous. If
there is a FAQ or other
reference on good practices...point me?

Thanks in advance.

--


===============================================================================

William D. Redman     ph: (716) 726-6315
wredman@kodak.com     Fx: (716) 726-0002
wdr3016@cs.rit.edu                pgr: (97)-53850

Work Schedule : http://www.rit.edu/~wdr3016/worksch.html
                http://www.ycc.kodak.com/~wredman/worksch.html

Eastman Kodak Company, 2-5-EP  901 Elmgrove Road, Rochester, NY
,14653-5401

            Picture me saying these things, not Kodak.
                  No negative comments please

===============================================================================





From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 08:25:00 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA17615
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 08:25:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from rm-rstar.sfu.ca (root@rm-rstar.sfu.ca [142.58.120.21])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17606
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 08:24:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from fraser.sfu.ca (fraser.sfu.ca [192.168.0.101])
	by rm-rstar.sfu.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1/SFU-5.0H) with SMTP id IAA08583
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 08:22:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Van Epp <vanepp@sfu.ca>
Received: by fraser.sfu.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/SFU-2.6C)
	id IAA24475 for sage-members@usenix.org (from vanepp@sfu.ca);
	Thu, 8 Apr 1999 08:22:41 -0700
Message-Id: <199904081522.IAA24475@fraser.sfu.ca>
Subject: Re: System Messages Review
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 08:22:40 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <370CBCD0.416EA6FF@ycc.kodak.com> from "William D. Redman" at Apr
	8, 99 10:27:29 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

> 
> How often do you monitor the messages from  your servers? I was talking
> to an individual and they
> reviewed them periodically, ~weekly to ~monthly.
> 
> I thought this was infrequent, as we do ours daily. We have 13 servers,
> and rotate the logs daily. The
> environment is predominantly software development and heterogeneous. If
> there is a FAQ or other
> reference on good practices...point me?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
>

	I'd say best practice would be to run a proactive log checking program
such as swatch set to ignore messages that are known to not require action.
That way when something new appears in a log file (assuming we are talking
syslog files here, although I imagine swatch could be warped to deal with
other log types) someone will get notified when the message occurs (not some
time later, if they don't miss the event in the sea of log files). The required 
action may be "tell swatch to ignore this type of message in future" (it almost
certainly will be in the first little while as "normal" log messages are 
discovered), or it may be "Oh oh, we are having a breakin, we better react!"
which can be much better than "oh oh, we had a breakin yesterday, and now 
a bunch more machines have also been compromised".
	That said, when I suggested this to someone a few weeks ago, they could
no longer find swatch on the net. I found a copy archived in Sweden, but it
doesn't seem to be available from Standford (where it was written) anymore.

Peter Van Epp / Operations and Technical Support 
Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C. Canada


From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 08:56:33 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA19624
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 08:56:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lisa.cs.mcgill.ca (maclean@lisa.CS.McGill.CA [132.206.51.241])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19615
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 08:56:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from maclean@localhost)
	by lisa.cs.mcgill.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10195;
	Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:00:05 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199904081600.MAA10195@lisa.cs.mcgill.ca>
From: maclean@CS.McGill.CA (Matthew SAMS)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:00:05 -0400
In-Reply-To: "William D. Redman" <wredman@Kodak.COM>
	"System Messages Review" (Apr  8, 10:27)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92)
To: wredman@Kodak.COM, "sage-members@usenix.org" <sage-members@usenix.org>,
	wredman@ycc.kodak.com
Subject: Re: System Messages Review
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Apr 8, 10:27, "William D. Redman" wrote:
+------------------------------

| How often do you monitor the messages from  your servers? 

In real time. I have all my servers send debug and higher 
messages to one box. I then run swatch to page me when
it gets a pattern match. I also examine the log file daily
for messages that swatch didn't match.


|             Picture me saying these things, not Kodak.
|                   No negative comments please

What about slide remarks? A bit of a stretch but I think it's 
vaguely humourous.

-Matthew


From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 10:00:15 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA23451
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:00:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mailhost.blight.com (IDENT:benjy@lucien.dreaming.blight.com
	[207.202.117.37]) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23438
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:00:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (benjy@localhost)
	by mailhost.blight.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA20357
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:58:02 -0500
X-Authentication-Warning: lucien.dreaming.blight.com: benjy owned process
	doing -bs
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:58:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: Benjy Feen <benjy@feen.com>
X-Sender: benjy@lucien.dreaming.blight.com
To: "sage-members@usenix.org" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: System Messages Review
In-Reply-To: <370CBCD0.416EA6FF@ycc.kodak.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.990408115628.16590E-100000@lucien.dreaming.blight.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

If you have any real availability requirements, daily (or constantly --
having important stuff emailed) is the only thing that makes sense to me.
An AWFUL lot can go wrong in a week. 

On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, William D. Redman wrote:

> How often do you monitor the messages from  your servers? I was talking
> to an individual and they
> reviewed them periodically, ~weekly to ~monthly.
> 
> I thought this was infrequent, as we do ours daily. We have 13 servers,
> and rotate the logs daily. The
> environment is predominantly software development and heterogeneous. If
> there is a FAQ or other
> reference on good practices...point me?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> --
> 
> 
> ===============================================================================
> 
> William D. Redman     ph: (716) 726-6315
> wredman@kodak.com     Fx: (716) 726-0002
> wdr3016@cs.rit.edu                pgr: (97)-53850
> 
> Work Schedule : http://www.rit.edu/~wdr3016/worksch.html
>                 http://www.ycc.kodak.com/~wredman/worksch.html
> 
> Eastman Kodak Company, 2-5-EP  901 Elmgrove Road, Rochester, NY
> ,14653-5401
> 
>             Picture me saying these things, not Kodak.
>                   No negative comments please
> 
> ===============================================================================
> 
> 
> 

                                    -=-
                                 Benjy Feen
                               benjy@feen.com
                            http://www.feen.com
                       Specialization is for insects.
                                    =-=



From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 10:01:39 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA23499
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:01:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lisa.cs.mcgill.ca (maclean@lisa.CS.McGill.CA [132.206.51.241])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23487
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:01:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from maclean@localhost)
	by lisa.cs.mcgill.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16573
	for sage-members@usenix.ORG; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:05:27 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199904081705.NAA16573@lisa.cs.mcgill.ca>
From: maclean@CS.McGill.CA (Matthew SAMS)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:05:26 -0400
In-Reply-To: Peter Van Epp <vanepp@sfu.ca>
	"Re: System Messages Review" (Apr  8,  8:22)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92)
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: System Messages Review
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

| 	That said, when I suggested this to someone a few weeks ago, they could
| no longer find swatch on the net. I found a copy archived in Sweden, but it
| doesn't seem to be available from Standford (where it was written) anymore.

ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/general/security-tools/swatch

version 3.0 Beta 1 is now available.

-Matthew


From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 10:30:19 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA25042
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:30:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail02-lax.pilot.net (mail-lax-2.pilot.net [205.139.40.16])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25033
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:30:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: leeann@rand.org
Received: from mail.rand.org (unknown-6-173.rand.org [130.154.6.173] (may be
	forged)) by mail02-lax.pilot.net with ESMTP id KAA16327 for
	<sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:28:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from crane.rand.org (crane.rand.org [130.154.9.180]) by
	mail.rand.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28250 for
	<sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:28:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from nightstalker.rand.org (nightstalker.rand.org [130.154.2.202])
	by crane.rand.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28235 for
	<sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:28:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from nightstalker.rand.org (leeann@localhost) by
	nightstalker.rand.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23624 for
	<sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:27:56 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199904081727.KAA23624@nightstalker.rand.org>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: System Messages Review 
In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 08 Apr 1999 10:27:29 EDT.
	<370CBCD0.416EA6FF@ycc.kodak.com> 
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 10:27:56 -0700
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


--Your message was: (from "William D. Redman")
> How often do you monitor the messages from  your servers? I was talking
> to an individual and they
> reviewed them periodically, ~weekly to ~monthly.
> 
> I thought this was infrequent, as we do ours daily. We have 13 servers,
> and rotate the logs daily. The
> environment is predominantly software development and heterogeneous. If
> there is a FAQ or other
> reference on good practices...point me?

At RAND we have a set of shell and perl filter scripts that email log
highlights from all of our systems to the sysadmin group every morning.
It's very helpful for catching weird stuff that's going on.

Lee Ann

--
Lee Ann Goldstein, Computer Operations
Rand Corp., Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
leeann@rand.org


From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 10:38:47 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA25202
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:38:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [209.48.224.31])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25193
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:38:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [209.48.224.40])
	by mail1.radix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA05921
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:36:37 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:36:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Andrew F. Maddox" <madsox@radix.net>
To: "sage-members@usenix.org" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: System Messages Review
In-Reply-To: <370CBCD0.416EA6FF@ycc.kodak.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SV4.3.96.990408133240.27062B-100000@saltmine.radix.net>
Organization: Outpost Java
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, William D. Redman wrote:

>How often do you monitor the messages from  your servers? I was talking
>to an individual and they
>reviewed them periodically, ~weekly to ~monthly.

I don't know about written references, but I monitor mt servers daily.
Usually scan the system messages  twice a day, and rotate the logs
weekly.

I'm working on a "BigBrother"-like utility to parse through the logs
automagically, and send me warnings if different keywords show up. That,
I'll have running pretty frequently (every 10 or 15 minutes, probably).

I like that part of BB, but the rest is a bit much for my setup at work.
Now, if anybody has such a utility that they'd like to share, my e-mail
is right down there in the sig!

_____________________________________________________________
Stupid is as stupid does, and sometimes I sure do!

Andrew Maddox, voicing only his own opinions, and not even sure of that.
PGP Key fingerprint =  0A 6C 1D CA 2B 39 A9 0E  76 D9 1E 3D 12 44 03 E6
madsox@radix.net, http://www.radix.net/~madsox



From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 11:50:13 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA29420
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:50:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29363
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:50:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail1.fsproduce.com by relay1.UU.NET with ESMTP 
	(peer crosschecked as: fsproduce.com [204.249.185.214])
	id QQgkbz04584
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:48:01 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from kensei (kensei.madc.fsproduce.com [150.1.1.5])
	by mail1.fsproduce.com (8.9.1/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA04905
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:42:46 -0400
Message-Id: <199904081842.OAA04905@mail1.fsproduce.com>
X-Sender: 00507-brs@mail.redrose.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 13:44:42 -0500
To: sage-members@usenix.org
From: Bennett Samowich <brs@ben-tech.com>
Subject: Re: System Messages Review
In-Reply-To: <199904081522.IAA24475@fraser.sfu.ca>
References: <370CBCD0.416EA6FF@ycc.kodak.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

At 08:22 AM 4/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>	That said, when I suggested this to someone a few weeks ago, they could
>no longer find swatch on the net. I found a copy archived in Sweden, but it
>doesn't seem to be available from Standford (where it was written) anymore.

swatch can still be found at ftp://coast.cs.purdue.edu/pub/tools/unix/swatch




From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 12:46:06 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA02871
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:46:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from tsdis02.nascom.nasa.gov ([198.118.235.98])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02830
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:45:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from alban@localhost) by tsdis02.nascom.nasa.gov
	(8.9.0/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id PAA02336 for
	sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:43:52 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <19990408154352.B15736@tsdis02.nascom.nasa.gov>
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:43:52 -0400
From: David Alban <alban@tsdis02.nascom.nasa.gov>
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: System Messages Review
Reply-To: david.alban@gsfc.nasa.gov
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

> >How often do you monitor the messages from  your servers? I was talking
> >to an individual and they
> >reviewed them periodically, ~weekly to ~monthly.

I have scripts on my machines that are invoked every two hours by
cron that email me the last two hours worth of log entries during
business hours (larger time intervals off-shift).  I don't actually
open and read the messages--I have other scripts that process my mail
inbox, filtering out stuff I know I don't care about.  Each script
focuses on something in particular.  I run the scripts right from my
mail program (mutt) while in my inbox.

The messages have subjects like:

  my_host_01: SYSLOG: Apr 08: 13:00-14:59

So when I'm done viewing the output of the scripts that filter them, I
just mark all messages for deltion whose subjects contain ": SYSLOG:".

It sounds complicated but it's not.  Every two hours I find a bunch of
log entry messages in my inbox, run a few scripts on my inbox, and
delete the messages containing the log entries.  Doesn't take much time
at all, and I'm usually not more than two hours "out of date".  I do
this for slightly more than a dozen machines.  (Could do it for many
more machines than that if I had the need.)

David
---
There was a man who entered a local paper's pun contest. He sent in
ten different puns, in the hope that at least one of the puns would
win.  Unfortunately, no pun in ten did.


From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 13:30:55 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA05108
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:30:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [209.48.224.31])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05098
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:30:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [209.48.224.40])
	by mail1.radix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA00888
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:28:43 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:28:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Andrew F. Maddox" <madsox@radix.net>
To: "sage-members@usenix.org" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: System Messages Review
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.96.990408133240.27062B-100000@saltmine.radix.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SV4.3.96.990408162739.17768C-100000@saltmine.radix.net>
Organization: Outpost Java
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Andrew F. Maddox wrote:

>On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, William D. Redman wrote:
>
>I'm working on a "BigBrother"-like utility to parse through the logs
>automagically, and send me warnings if different keywords show up. That,
>I'll have running pretty frequently (every 10 or 15 minutes, probably).

Never mind. I'll be re-implementing swatch, now that I've been reminded
about it. The brain just leaked it right out, I *used* to know about it!

oh, well.

_____________________________________________________________
Stupid is as stupid does, and sometimes I sure do!

Andrew Maddox, voicing only his own opinions, and not even sure of that.
PGP Key fingerprint =  0A 6C 1D CA 2B 39 A9 0E  76 D9 1E 3D 12 44 03 E6
madsox@radix.net, http://www.radix.net/~madsox



From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 14:03:42 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA07046
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:03:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from michelob.wustl.edu (michelob.wustl.edu [128.252.130.10])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07037
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:03:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (hargiss@localhost) by michelob.wustl.edu (AIX4.3/UCB
	8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA454960; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:59:25 -0500
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:59:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Jeff \"Forest Creature\" Hargiss" <hargiss@michelob.wustl.edu>
To: "William D. Redman" <wredman@Kodak.COM>
cc: "sage-members@usenix.org" <sage-members@usenix.org>, wredman@ycc.kodak.com
Subject: Re: System Messages Review
In-Reply-To: <370CBCD0.416EA6FF@ycc.kodak.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96.990408155857.463134I-100000@michelob.wustl.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

real time here, using hp openview's operations center.
[aka it/o]


---
forest creature, network druid
www.hargiss.com
---



From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 14:20:47 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA08025
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:20:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from inm.sentex.ca (r00t@inm.sentex.ca [205.211.164.96])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08013
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:20:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from admin3.ineural.com (gdunn@admin3.ineural.com [192.168.0.71])
	by inm.sentex.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA12885;
	Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:18:10 -0400
Received: (from gdunn@localhost)
	by admin3.ineural.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA01377;
	Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:18:08 -0400
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:18:07 -0400
From: Graham Dunn <gdunn@ineural.com>
To: "Andrew F. Maddox" <madsox@radix.net>
Cc: "sage-members@usenix.org" <sage-members@usenix.org>
Subject: Re: System Messages Review
Message-ID: <19990408171806.B1221@ineural.com>
References: <370CBCD0.416EA6FF@ycc.kodak.com>
	<Pine.SV4.3.96.990408133240.27062B-100000@saltmine.radix.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.96.990408133240.27062B-100000@saltmine.radix.net>;
	from Andrew F. Maddox on Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 01:36:34PM -0400
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

http://www.psionic.com has a nifty util for this sort of thing ... look
for LogCheck.

Personally, I get email hourly on 'suspicious' security entries and have
shell scripts that run daily (mainly modified versions of the FWTK
*-summ.sh scripts).


On Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 01:36:34PM -0400, Andrew F. Maddox wrote:
> 
> I don't know about written references, but I monitor mt servers daily.
> Usually scan the system messages  twice a day, and rotate the logs
> weekly.
> 
> I'm working on a "BigBrother"-like utility to parse through the logs
> automagically, and send me warnings if different keywords show up. That,
> I'll have running pretty frequently (every 10 or 15 minutes, probably).
> 

-- 
   gdunn@ineural.com	 Graham Dunn         || ||| | ||| |||| | |||| | 
Systems Administrator - International Neural Machines Inc. - Waterloo, ON
    Key fingerprint = 3F 56 12 9B 8A E1 77 CB  F0 62 94 B0 93 06 1E 88


From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 14:33:52 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA08823
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:33:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from minerva.psc.edu (minerva.psc.edu [128.182.62.121])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08814
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:33:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (ecf@localhost) by minerva.psc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with
	SMTP id RAA12941 for <sage-members@usenix.org>;
	Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:31:11 -0400
Message-Id: <199904082131.RAA12941@minerva.psc.edu>
X-Authentication-Warning: minerva.psc.edu: ecf@localhost didn't use HELO
	protocol
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: ECPA 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 07 Apr 1999 16:12:41 PDT."
	<4.1.19990407160214.00bf0cd0@thelma.parc.xerox.com> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 17:31:10 -0400
From: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk


Keith Farrar says:
> At 12:13 PM 4/7/99 -0700, Esther Filderman wrote:
> >  - What do you do if your boss/company demands that you do something 
> > that may be illegal?
> 
> Reality check:
> I would much prefer (temporary) unemployment to arrest and imprisonment.
> 

On the one hand, I agree.

On the other hand, it's1999, the economy is good, and sysadmins -- especially
unix sysadmins -- are a commodity.  Those of us who were at LISA last year may
have noticed that vendors were spending less time pushing their product and
more time trying to hire us.  I certainly found it interesting that more
companies were giving away toys et. al. for job applications than for interest
in products.

Now set the clock back 15 years.  It's 1984, the economy is incredibly bad, and
the market for sysadmins isn't so hot, since a lot of places that have
computers are still running terminals connected to mainframes, so there aren't
that many jobs.  If you don't have some specialty area in your experience
that's in demand losing your job may mean a drastic lifestyle change.

Now, in this time and environment, would you now surpass your ethics to do
something that _may_ be illegal, if it meant your job?  It's easy to stand up
for your ethical beliefs when food and a roof over your head (maybe also for
your family) isn't at stake.  

I am not condemning those who would choose this way.  Having lived through some
hard times myself, I'm not sure I wouldn't do the same.

The third hand says, "If my boss demands that I do something that may be
illegal, but he put on paper that he required me to do this, and HIS boss
signed it as well, this may be enough CYA should the manure hit the
air-rotation-device."

Like I said before, nothing is black and white here. 





From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 14:38:02 1999
Received: by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA09065
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:38:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from minerva.psc.edu (minerva.psc.edu [128.182.62.121])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09056
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:37:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (ecf@localhost) by minerva.psc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with
	SMTP id RAA12955 for <sage-members@usenix.org>;
	Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:35:22 -0400
Message-Id: <199904082135.RAA12955@minerva.psc.edu>
X-Authentication-Warning: minerva.psc.edu: ecf@localhost didn't use HELO
	protocol
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: ECPA 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 08 Apr 1999 12:45:34 BST."
	<XFMail.990408124534.Adam.Morris@onyx.net> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 17:35:22 -0400
From: Esther Filderman <ecf@psc.edu>
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Adam Morris sez:
> Thoughts of concentration camps, and guards saying "I was just following
> orders" spring to mind...  If the action is illegal then should you be doing
> it?  I personally think not. 


Ooh, I just knew someone would "yell Hitler" :-) :-) :-).

Ok, serious reality check here.  We're not shooting or gassing people here. I
suppose it's potentially possible to cause a company to lose money, or to ruin
someone's reputation.  But that's hardly the slaughter of millions of people. 






From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 16:44:23 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA14339
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:44:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mailhost.blight.com (IDENT:benjy@lucien.dreaming.blight.com
	[207.202.117.37]) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14330
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:44:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (benjy@localhost)
	by mailhost.blight.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA13197
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 18:42:11 -0500
X-Authentication-Warning: lucien.dreaming.blight.com: benjy owned process
	doing -bs
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 18:42:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: Benjy Feen <benjy@feen.com>
X-Sender: benjy@lucien.dreaming.blight.com
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Re: ECPA 
In-Reply-To: <199904082135.RAA12955@minerva.psc.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.990408180505.16590N-100000@lucien.dreaming.blight.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Esther Filderman wrote:
> Ooh, I just knew someone would "yell Hitler" :-) :-) :-).

Indeed... Isn't the rule on Usenet that any argument is declared to be
over when someone makes a comparison to Nazis?

> Ok, serious reality check here.  We're not shooting or gassing people here. I
> suppose it's potentially possible to cause a company to lose money, or to ruin
> someone's reputation.  But that's hardly the slaughter of millions of people. 

Agreed. IMHO, a company's resources are for the benefit of the company.
Anything for the benefit of the employee is a perk, not a legal right.
If you want secure e-mail, pay for it out of your pocket. 

In one of my past positions, I was at one point suspected of being a
hacker. (I was a 22-year-old college hire in a large corporation whose
average sysadmin is 40 years old. Age discrimination runs rampant.) The
individual who suspected me used root authority to go through my home
directory and some of my saved email.  He found a Bugtraq folder, and
having never heard of Bugtraq, but seeing the words "SECURITY HOLE", went
to my manager and told her I was hacking the systems I had been hired to
manage. I was given a chance to explain myself, and was told "We can't
prove anything, but we're WATCHING you." 

My feelings about the incident:

1) The guy who did the snooping should have received a formal reprimand. 
He had no management directive to snoop. It was suspicion and curiosity on
the part of the snooper, not a business need. This particular corporation
does have an information security policy, and he was in direct violation.
I found this  out later when I was made security lead ;)

2) My solution was to begin using ssh to go out to a machine outside the
company. No big deal. More convenient for me anyway.

3) I still believe that corporate e-mail is the property of the company,
and it's silly to expect that the company should pay you to write e-mails
which for one reason or another you don't want the company to know about.
Remember that "The Company" is the legal entity which pays you for work
which advances the interests of The Company. The _individuals_ in the
company are another matter -- no one should be able to browse the contents
of your mailbox freely, or rummage through a locked file cabinet. But
authorized agents of the company, who are being paid to manage the
company's interests, may from time to time need to figure out if the
company is being ripped off or screwed. One of my friends' employees was
sending a competitor customer lists in an effort to score a job there.  My
friend proved it by going through the guy's sent-mail. Can anyone explain
the point of an ethic which would have prevented my friend from getting
that proof?  What company would choose to tie its own hands like that?
The only argument I can think of is that "there might be personal
information" in the email. Personal information like electronic pay stubs,
sure. That's why management needs to sign off on the snooping --
management already knows that sort of "personal" information.  But things
like "they might see my Alcoholics Anonymous folder"... See above. That's
not business, and you can do as everyone else does and get yourself a
private e-mail account for the personal stuff.





From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 19:50:25 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA21889
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 19:50:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from psasolar.colltech.com (psasolar.colltech.com [208.229.236.14])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21880
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 19:50:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: cordrey@colltech.com
Received: (from cordrey@localhost)
	by psasolar.colltech.com (VER/What/1.0) id VAA21876
	for sage-members@usenix.org; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 21:48:15 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <199904090248.VAA21876@psasolar.colltech.com>
Subject: Re: Using FTP to transfer ASCII text
In-Reply-To: <370BA9CB.C7D2BB01@jimd.csd.sgi.com> from Jim Dodd at "Apr 7,
	99 11:54:03 am"
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 21:48:15 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

Since you don't want to allow ftp to fix the end-of-line
characters, the solaris commands dos2unix and unix2dos with
the -ascii flag should do the trick.

-Vincent

Jim Dodd wrote:
> Microsoft OSs divide text files into lines using the CR/LF has you have
> indicated. when in text mode, ftp will read in each line realizing that
> both characters are used for the line break. But, when you are in binary
> mode it does not assign any importance to control characters.
> 
> Once the file gets to the UNIX box at the other end, ascii files are
> broken into lines using only the LF character. So if you vi a MS file,
> you will see that every line ends with a ^M which is a CR character. If
> you use other means to view it, it may be shown as a box to indicate a
> non printable character. 
> 
> So, the answer is yes, this is normal. I am not sure about suns but many
> platforms have utilities that will convert from dos to unxi format. If
> you do not have such a utility, use sed to strip the training ^M.
> 
> Steve DeBord wrote:
> > 
> > In configuring our FTP client software, we've set them all up in binary mode
> > as the default.  When transferring an ASCII text file from our Sun Ultra2
> > (Solaris 2.5.1) to the Win98 client in binary mode, the CR/LF character is
> > not interpreted properly.  The file on the client side has a black box
> > character where previously appeared a CR/LF.
> > 
> > Is this normal when transferring text in binary mode?  Anyone have a fix
> > idea, other than setting the FTP client to default to ASCII on the client
> > side?
> > 
> > Thanks in advance,
> > 
> > Steve DeBord
> > 
> > Systems Administrator
> > Liebhardt Inc.
> > Email : debord@liebhardt.com
> 



From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 22:08:36 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA05144
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:08:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from dukat.upl.cs.wisc.edu (dukat.upl.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.45.39])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA05135
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:08:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (hartmann@localhost)
	by dukat.upl.cs.wisc.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id AAA24992
	for <sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 00:06:16 -0500 (CDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: dukat.upl.cs.wisc.edu: hartmann owned process doing
	-bs
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 00:06:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: Gus Hartmann <hartmann@cs.wisc.edu>
X-Sender: hartmann@dukat.upl.cs.wisc.edu
To: sage-members@usenix.org
Subject: Burning CDs under Solaris?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96L.990409000239.24716A-100000@dukat.upl.cs.wisc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org
Precedence: bulk

	Does anyone have any recommendations about burning CDs under
Solaris? We're a Sun hardware shop, so SCSI hardware is preferred. Free
software is always preferable; I'm willing to put some time into the
process, as opposed to a turnkey solution. What have other people had
success with?

	Thanks in advance.

	Gus
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  http://www.upl.cs.wisc.edu/~hartmann/ | PGP Key ID: pub  1024/DCC499F5
___________________________________________________________________________
                          To share is to split.  -- KMFDM



From sage-members-owner  Thu Apr  8 22:41:08 1999
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA08089
	for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:41:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from q3.quik.com (q3.quik.com [209.213.140.5])
	by usenix.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA08080
	for <sage-members@usenix.org>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:41:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from biz.compata.com (root@compata.com [209.213.159.33])
	by q3.quik.com (8.