From sage-members-owner Fri Jan 10 06:52:46 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA19409 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 06:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from epx.cis.umn.edu (root@epx.cis.umn.edu [128.101.83.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA19400 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 06:52:38 -0800 (PST) From: djb@epx.cis.umn.edu Received: by epx.cis.umn.edu; Fri, 10 Jan 97 08:49:52 -0600 Message-Id: <00132d65710009063@epx.cis.umn.edu> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 97 08:49:52 -0600 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: TCSA meeting January 16 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The Twin Cities System Administrators (TCSA) group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to system and network administrators in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota. The meetings are free and open to the public. TCSA meetings are on the third Thursday of each month at 7:00 pm. We will meet at Park Place West (Hwys 394 and 100) at building Conference Room #1 located on the basement level (level P - Parking Level). Next Meeting: January 16, 1997: Big Brother Monitoring Tool Ron Nelson Big Brother is a set of tools for monitoring and displaying the current status of an entire Unix network and notifying the admin should need be. Proposed agenda: - TCSA Information - Introductions and Announcements Announcements may include Job Postings - Presentation Big Brother Monitoring Tool, Ron Nelson - Social Hour Those wishing to gather after the meeting at a local restaurant or bar (TGI-Fridays is down the street). Tentative Meeting Schedule February 20, 1997: ?? Directions to Park Place West (6465 Wayzata Blvd): Take I394 to the Louisiana Ave. exit. Go east on Wayzata Blvd. (the frontage road on the south side of I394) to the entrance between Fuddruckers and Bennigan's. Proceed through the parking lot to the Park Place West building. Building Conference Room #1 is on the basement level (Level P - Parking level). For more information on TCSA, check out our web site: http://www.tcsa.org/ To subscribe to the TCSA mailing list (from a Unix system): echo "subscribe tcsa" | mailx majordomo@tcsa.org For any other information, please send email to: info@tcsa.org or contact: Dave Bianchi (612) 644-7843 -- Dave Bianchi djb@epx.cis.umn.edu Home: 612-644-7843 Pencom Systems Administration djb@psa.pencom.com From sage-members-owner Sun Jan 12 21:54:33 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA16127 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 21:54:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.cs.unc.edu (austin.cs.unc.edu [152.2.128.87]) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA16118 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 21:54:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from baldhead.cs.unc.edu by austin.cs.unc.edu (8.6.10/UNC_10_05_96) id AAA20535; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:21:05 -0500 From: "Amy K. Kreiling" Received: by baldhead.cs.unc.edu (8.6.10/UNC_06_21_94) id AAA10956; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:21:05 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:21:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199701130521.AAA10956@baldhead.cs.unc.edu> To: ncsa-announce@cs.unc.edu Subject: North Carolina System Administrators meeting -- 1/13/97 -- WebNFS Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The next meeting of the North Carolina System Administrators & Managers organization (NC*SA) will be Monday, January 13, 1997, at 6pm. Details about the meeting, our technical program and directions to our meeting location are provided in this note. We hope to see you there!! North Carolina System Administration Interest Group WebNFS Rex Walters, Auspex Systems Inc. Monday, January 13, 1997 Research Triangle Institute Dreyfus Auditorium Research Triangle Park, NC 6 PM - General Session ABSTRACT WebNFS represents an alternative to the HTTP and FTP protocols for downloading files in Web browser based applications. Estimates of two to ten-fold performance increases have been made for WebNFS. WebNFS was originally developed by SunSoft, and is supported by Auspex, Spyglass, Oracle, IBM, Sequent, and most recently Netscape. recently Netscape. BIO Rex Walters is a Consulting Systems Engineer for Auspex Systems, Inc. in Cary, North Carolina, where he acts as a technical consultant for Auspex customers and prospects in the southeast. Rex is currently investigating data delivery in internet/intranet environments. ==================== Our meetings are free and open to anyone with an interest in the topic of the evening. We will be providing food and drink for the evening. If you have any questions please contact: Amy K. Kreiling SAS Institute Inc. SAS Campus Drive Cary, NC 27513 (919) 677-8000 x5963 kreiling@unx.sas.com ============================== Have you visited the NC*SA web site, yet? Visit us at: http://netit.com/ncsa/ Your feedback is appreciated! ============================== For information about the NC System Administrators group, contact our Majordomo mailing list server. The "ncsa-discussion" mailing list has been created to facilitate discussions of interest to system administrators from the state of North Carolina. Simply send email to "majordomo@cs.unc.edu": mail majordomo@cs.unc.edu Subject: subscribe ncsa-discussion After subscribing, Majordomo will send you the help file and info file for our mailing list. These files contain instructions for retrieving other files available to the NCSA organization (e.g. the presentation material from past technical programs are available for retrieval via Majordomo!!) ============================== Directions to Research Triangle Institute From I-40 west of RTP (e.g. Chapel Hill): Get onto I-40 heading east. Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham Freeway - North (towards Durham). Stay in right lane. Shift right as soon as possible after merging with traffic coming off I-40 westbound. Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road). At top of exit, turn to the left. (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you are going the wrong direction.) After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From I-40 east of RTP (e.g. Raleigh): Get onto I-40 heading west. Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham Freeway - North (towards Durham). Shift to rightmost lane as soon as possible Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road). At top of exit, turn to the left. (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you are going the wrong direction.) After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From north of RTP (e.g. Durham): Get onto NC-147 - Durham Freeway - south. Exit at the Cornwallis Road exit. At the top of the exit, turn left to cross over the bridge. After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From sage-members-owner Tue Jan 14 11:33:58 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA16934 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:33:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from hplms26.hpl.hp.com (hplms26.hpl.hp.com [15.255.168.31]) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA16919 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:33:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from hplabsz.hpl.hp.com by hplms26.hpl.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3+HPL1.1S) id AA051620237; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:30:38 -0800 Received: by hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (1.37.109.20/15.5+ECS 3.3+HPL1.1) id AA069910238; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:30:38 -0800 From: deleon@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Laura de Leon) Message-Id: <9701141130.ZM6989@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:30:38 -0800 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.0.0 15dec93) To: sage-members@usenix.org, baylisa@baylisa.org, rem-conf@es.net Subject: BayLISA: Brent Chapman on Containment Zones Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The BayLISA group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to systems and network administrators. The meetings are free and open to the public. BayLISA holds monthly meetings on the third Thursday of each month at 7:30 PM PST. We meet at Cisco building J in San Jose, on Tasman Drive near First street. (This is across the street from the room we met in at Cisco in November). See www.baylisa.org for more information. The meetings are also broadcast via MBONE. Schedule -------- January 16 Containment Fields: An Intranet Application of Internet Firewalls Technology Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates, Inc. Brent@GreatCircle.COM +1 415 962 0841 or 800/270-2562 Many organizations require different security models for different parts of their networks; for instance, they may have classrooms and demonstration facilities which customers are allowed access to, as well as internal development networks where outsiders are strictly prohibited. Containment fields are a way of using standard Internet firewall technologies (packet filters and IP tunnels) to establish and link pieces of a network that have special security requirements without compromising the security of the larger network they are a part of. The containment field concept was developed as part of the SGI/Cray merger, in order to reconcile the significantly different security models of those two organizations as they merged their existing wide area networks. This talk will describe containment fields in the context of the SGI/Cray merger, including why and how we developed them, what we expect to do with them, and how we plan to build them. February 20 Nick Stoughton Standards efforts and how they will effect you March 20 Paul Vixie [Schedule subject to change] For further information on BayLISA, check out our web site: http://www.baylisa.org/ To get further information on the meeting location, you can also ftp it from ftp.baylisa.org:/location For any other information, please send email to: info@baylisa.org If you have any questions, please contact me or the info alias listed above. From sage-members-owner Mon Feb 3 19:50:19 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA28607 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:50:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from rigel.dartmouth.edu (rigel.dartmouth.edu [129.170.18.204]) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA28598 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:50:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from rigel.dartmouth.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rigel.dartmouth.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA24362 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:47:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199702040347.WAA24362@rigel.dartmouth.edu> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Member Update! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 22:47:26 -0500 From: Pat Wilson Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk SAGE members: Hi! Just a quick update on happenings, mostly from our Board meeting at Usenix last month. "Official" bits: The new Board (Barb Dijker , Paul Evans , Tim Gassaway , Helen Harrison , Amy Kreiling , Hal Miller , and Pat Wilson ) was seated and elected officers. Hal Miller is President, and Tim and Barb return as secretary and treasurer, respectively. We're collectively reachable as "sage-board@usenix.org". Board meeting bits: The new Code of Ethics () is available for perusal. Look for the article in this month's ;login: about it! We're all interested in any feedback you may have - Hal is collecting responses. The Online committee met and announced a desire to hire a part-time "web editor" for the SAGE web site. This person will be charged with implementing interesting web-based things for SAGE, as well as maintaining the SAGE pages and co-ordinating SAGE online volunteers. Look for the official job posting on the SAGE web site and in comp.org.usenix soon! The 3rd booklet in the SAGE series, "Systems Security: A Management Perspective", will be mailed to members in March. The Board will make local group issues (organization, coordination of services, etc) a priority this year. Look for more on this in the next month or two, or send us your ideas. Amy (Kreiling ) will be working on "Good Works" issues - things that we can do in our community (mentoring high school students, for example). We're happy to entertain proposals - send 'em in (to Amy)! We're very excited about the upcoming Large Scale Sys Admin of NT Workshop in August. A CFP is already out (); submission deadline is March 1st (sooner than you think). It's a workshop with limited attendance (rather than a full blown conference) this year, so make sure you check out the CFP if you're dealing with NT issues or expect to be in the next several months. Don't forget that the LISA '97 CFP is out! The theme of the conference is "Professional Development", though we're looking for all kinds of submissions. The conference is October 26-31 in San Diego - start bugging you managers now for the trip! SANS, the Systems and Network Security conference which SAGE co-sponsors is in April, in Baltimore, MD - early registration closes Feb 15th, so time is of the essence. Details at http://www.sans.org, or they've shown up in your snail mail by now... Other things: Don't forget to check the SAGE page after the first of each month for the latest SAGE News of the Month! Bryan MacDonald, the editor, is always looking for tidbits to publish - reach him as bigmac@usenix.org. Also from the SAGE site are the Services Provided by SAGE Members (consultants, list your services here) and the Job Center (jobs wanted, jobs offered, and (coming soon) the latest salary survey data). Visit often! We hope to keep you up to date on what SAGE is doing - if you don't hear from us often enough, drop us a line! Remember that SAGE is _all_ of us, and we're all only human. If you've got a good idea or a burning desire to do something with/for SAGE, let us all know - send mail to sage-members@usenix.org (this list) and/or to the Board and speak up. Of course, if it's your idea, you get to be Leader... but if no one has ideas, nothing gets done. Until next time, Pat Wilson for the SAGE Board From sage-members-owner Thu Feb 6 11:02:02 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA09239 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:02:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.cs.unc.edu (austin.cs.unc.edu [152.2.128.87]) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA09230 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:01:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from lamb.sas.com by austin.cs.unc.edu (8.6.10/UNC_10_05_96) id NAA01081; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:06:03 -0500 Received: from mozart by lamb.sas.com (5.65c/SAS/Gateway/01-23-95) id AA21371; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:06:01 -0500 Received: from coghill.unx.sas.com by mozart (5.65c/SAS/Domains/5-6-90) id AA10990; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:05:53 -0500 Received: by coghill.unx.sas.com (5.65c/SAS/Generic 9.01/3-26-93) id AA00186; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:05:51 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:05:51 -0500 From: Amy Kreiling Message-Id: <199702061805.AA00186@coghill.unx.sas.com> To: ncsa-announce@cs.unc.edu Subject: February NC*SA meeting -- UNIX-NT Integration w/ SAMBA -- 2/10/97, 6pm Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The next meeting of the North Carolina System Administrators & Managers organization (NC*SA) will be Monday, February 10, at 6pm. Details about the meeting, our technical program and directions to our meeting location are provided in this note. We hope to see you there!! North Carolina System Administration Interest Group UNIX and NT System Integration Samba Monday, February 10, 1997 Research Triangle Institute Dreyfus Auditorium Research Triangle Park, NC 6 PM - General Session This month's NC*SA meeting will feature John Denis of Network Computing Solutions speaking on UNIX and NT System Integration focusing on Samba. BIO John Denis is a Sr. UNIX System Engineer with Network Computing Solutions in the Raleigh/RTP area. With eight years of experience in the UNIX world he has designed and implemented and administered networks both large and small. John has a diverse background that ranges from networking, migration to open systems, systems analysis, business systems and engineering environments. ABSTRACT With the very successful deployment of PC's in the workplace it has always been a dilemma to integrate PC's and UNIX seamlessly. There have been several commercial products that try to address this need in the computing community. Several do this by implementing NFS on the PC, while others decided to approach this with a server solution. While all these solutions work they are costly and present unique logistical issues. Samba is a viable solution that is freely distributed and provides a effective solution in integrating these two different environments. Our meetings are free and open to anyone with an interest in the topic of the evening. We will be providing food and drink for the evening. If you have any questions please contact: Amy K. Kreiling SAS Institute Inc. SAS Campus Drive Cary, NC 27513 (919) 677-8000 x5963 kreiling@unx.sas.com ============================== Have you visited the NC*SA web site, yet? Visit us at: http://netit.com/ncsa/ Your feedback is appreciated! ============================== One of our sponsors, MTI Technology Corporation, is sponsoring a Storage Management Roadshow that will be visiting Raleigh on March 10, 1997. Learn more about the Roadshow by visiting: http://www.mti.com/roadshow/info.htm ============================== For information about the NC System Administrators group, contact our Majordomo mailing list server. The "ncsa-discussion" mailing list has been created to facilitate discussions of interest to system administrators from the state of North Carolina. Simply send email to "majordomo@cs.unc.edu": mail majordomo@cs.unc.edu Subject: subscribe ncsa-discussion After subscribing, Majordomo will send you the help file and info file for our mailing list. These files contain instructions for retrieving other files available to the NCSA organization (e.g. the presentation material from past technical programs are available for retrieval via Majordomo!!) ============================== Directions to Research Triangle Institute From I-40 west of RTP (e.g. Chapel Hill): Get onto I-40 heading east. Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham Freeway - North (towards Durham). Stay in right lane. Shift right as soon as possible after merging with traffic coming off I-40 westbound. Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road). At top of exit, turn to the left. (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you are going the wrong direction.) After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From I-40 east of RTP (e.g. Raleigh): Get onto I-40 heading west. Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham Freeway - North (towards Durham). Shift to rightmost lane as soon as possible Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road). At top of exit, turn to the left. (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you are going the wrong direction.) After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From north of RTP (e.g. Durham): Get onto NC-147 - Durham Freeway - south. Exit at the Cornwallis Road exit. At the top of the exit, turn left to cross over the bridge. After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From sage-members-owner Thu Feb 13 06:21:31 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA14911 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:21:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from epx.cis.umn.edu (root@epx.cis.umn.edu [128.101.83.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA14902 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:21:25 -0800 (PST) From: djb@epx.cis.umn.edu Received: by epx.cis.umn.edu; Thu, 13 Feb 97 08:18:32 -0600 Message-Id: <001330322b8014151@epx.cis.umn.edu> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 97 08:18:32 -0600 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: TCSA meeting February 20 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The Twin Cities System Administrators (TCSA) group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to system and network administrators in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota. The meetings are free and open to the public. TCSA meetings are on the third Thursday of each month at 7:00 pm. We will meet at Park Place West (Hwys 394 and 100) at building Conference Room #1 located on the basement level (level P - Parking Level). Next Meeting: February 20, 1997: Trouble Ticket Systems - RUST Shawn Amundson, University of Minnesota Shawn will talk about Trouble Ticket Systems and his work with RUST, a freely-available trouble ticket system that grew out of the Req system. Proposed agenda: - TCSA Information - Introductions and Announcements Announcements may include Job Postings - Presentation Trouble Ticket Systems, Shawn Amundson - Social Hour Those wishing to gather after the meeting at a local restaurant or bar (TGI-Fridays is down the street). Tentative Meeting Schedule March 20, 1997: ?? Directions to Park Place West (6465 Wayzata Blvd): Take I394 to the Louisiana Ave. exit. Go east on Wayzata Blvd. (the frontage road on the south side of I394) to the entrance between Fuddruckers and Bennigan's. Proceed through the parking lot to the Park Place West building. Building Conference Room #1 is on the basement level (Level P - Parking level). For more information on TCSA, check out our web site: http://www.tcsa.org/ To subscribe to the TCSA mailing list (from a Unix system): echo "subscribe tcsa" | mailx majordomo@tcsa.org For any other information, please send email to: info@tcsa.org or contact: Dave Bianchi (612) 644-7843 -- Dave Bianchi Pencom System Administration At: Honeywell CAS-SPO djb@epx.cis.umn.edu djb@psa.pencom.com djb@cfsmo.honeywell.com Home: 612-644-7843 Pager: 612-818-7162 Honeywell: 612-957-4532 From sage-members-owner Mon Mar 17 11:54:31 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA28189 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 11:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA28172 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 11:54:22 -0800 (PST) From: djb@epx.cis.umn.edu Received: from epx.cis.umn.edu by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: epx.cis.umn.edu [128.101.83.4]) id QQchhn16034; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:51:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by epx.cis.umn.edu; Mon, 17 Mar 97 13:51:12 -0600 Message-Id: <001332da0b0026589@epx.cis.umn.edu> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 13:51:12 -0600 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: TCSA meeting March 20 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The Twin Cities System Administrators (TCSA) group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to system and network administrators in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota. The meetings are free and open to the public. TCSA meetings are on the third Thursday of each month at 7:00 pm. This month we will meet at Hewlett-Packard, 2025 West Larpenteur Avenue in Falcon Heights. *** NOTE THE CHANGE OF LOCATION! *** Next Meeting: March 20, 1997: Network and System Management Brett Long, Hewlett-Packard Brett will talk about the Hewlett-Packard approach to network and systems management. Proposed agenda: - TCSA Information - Introductions and Announcements Announcements may include Job Postings - Presentation Network and System Management, Brett Long - Social Hour Those wishing to gather after the meeting at a local restaurant or bar. Next meeting is: April 17, 1997 Directions to Hewlett-Packard (2025 West Larpenteur Ave): HP is located on Larpenteur Ave near Cleveland in Falcon Heights (near the State Fairgrounds). From Minneapolis, take 35W to E Hennepin and head east for 2.5 miles. From St. Paul, take Hwy 36 to Snelling Av., head south to Larpenteur (1.3 miles), then west on Larpenteur for (0.9 miles). If I get better directions, I will send them to the TCSA mailing list. For more information on TCSA, check out our web site: http://www.tcsa.org/ To subscribe to the TCSA mailing list (from a Unix system): echo "subscribe tcsa" | mailx majordomo@tcsa.org For any other information, please send email to: info@tcsa.org or contact: Dave Bianchi (612) 644-7843 -- Dave Bianchi Pencom System Administration At: Honeywell CAS-SPO djb@epx.cis.umn.edu djb@psa.pencom.com djb@cfsmo.honeywell.com Home: 612-644-7843 Pager: 612-818-7162 Honeywell: 612-957-4532 From sage-members-owner Wed Mar 19 06:57:02 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA14533 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from utdallas.edu (utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA14524 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:56:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from velcro.utdallas.edu (12721@velcro.utdallas.edu [129.110.3.4]) by utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA15121; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 08:53:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 08:53:56 -0600 (CST) From: Amos A Gouaux Reply-To: amos@utdallas.edu To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Dallas/Ft. Worth (TX) SAGE In-Reply-To: <001332da0b0026589@epx.cis.umn.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk As it turns out, currently there is not an _official_ SAGE group in the DFW area. What does exist is the DFW UNIX Users Group (DFWUUG). Actually, from what I've been told, this group is affiliated with UniForum and not USENIX. I have exchanged e-mail with the treasurer of DFWUUG and he indicated that there were some folks interested in forming an official SAGE group. To facilitate discussion, I have created a Majordomo list called dfwlisa@utdallas.edu. To subscribe to dfwlisa@utdallas.edu, just send e-mail to majordomo@utdallas.edu with the phrase "subscribe dfwlisa" in the body of the message. Amos From sage-members-owner Wed Mar 19 07:44:11 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA16798 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:44:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.lantimes.com (mail.lantimes.com [140.174.133.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA16781 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:44:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.lantimes.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id HAA22107; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:25:25 -0800 Received: from cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 by cc_mail.lantimes.com id 9702198587.AA858786043 Wed, 19 Mar 97 07:40:43 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 97 07:40:43 From: lpgpost_administrator@cc_mail.lantimes.com Message-Id: <9702198587.AA858786043@cc_mail.lantimes.com> To: amos@utdallas.edu To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Dallas/Ft. Worth (TX) SAGE Subject: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk User cc_mail!rik is not defined Original text follows ----------------------------------------- Received: by ccmail Received: from mail by lantimes.com (UUPC/extended 1.11) with UUCP; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:31:16 PST Received: from usenix.ORG (usenix-gw.usenix.ORG [131.106.1.254]) by mail.lantimes.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA22086 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:10:33 -0800 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA14533 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from utdallas.edu (utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA14524 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:56:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from velcro.utdallas.edu (12721@velcro.utdallas.edu [129.110.3.4]) by utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA15121; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 08:53:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 08:53:56 -0600 (CST) From: Amos A Gouaux X-ccAdmin: postmaster@mail Reply-To: amos@utdallas.edu To: sage-members@usenix.ORG Subject: Dallas/Ft. Worth (TX) SAGE In-Reply-To: <001332da0b0026589@epx.cis.umn.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.ORG Precedence: bulk As it turns out, currently there is not an _official_ SAGE group in the DFW area. What does exist is the DFW UNIX Users Group (DFWUUG). Actually, from what I've been told, this group is affiliated with UniForum and not USENIX. I have exchanged e-mail with the treasurer of DFWUUG and he indicated that there were some folks interested in forming an official SAGE group. To facilitate discussion, I have created a Majordomo list called dfwlisa@utdallas.edu. To subscribe to dfwlisa@utdallas.edu, just send e-mail to majordomo@utdallas.edu with the phrase "subscribe dfwlisa" in the body of the message. Amos From sage-members-owner Wed Mar 19 11:13:29 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA28439 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 11:13:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from hplms26.hpl.hp.com (hplms26.hpl.hp.com [15.255.168.31]) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA28430 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 11:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from hplabsz.hpl.hp.com by hplms26.hpl.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3+HPL1.1S) id AA096888606; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 11:10:08 -0800 Received: by hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (1.37.109.20/15.5+ECS 3.3+HPL1.1) id AA003378608; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 11:10:08 -0800 From: deleon@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Laura de Leon) Message-Id: <9703191110.ZM335@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 11:10:07 -0800 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.0.0 15dec93) To: baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@usenix.org, rem-conf@es.net Subject: (BayLISA: Paul Vixie on BIND Version 8 Cc: deleon@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The BayLISA group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to systems and network administrators. The meetings are free and open to the public. BayLISA holds monthly meetings on the third Thursday of each month at 7:30 PM PST. We meet at Cisco building J in San Jose, on Tasman Drive near First street. See www.baylisa.org for more information. The meetings are also broadcast via MBONE. Schedule -------- March 20 Paul Vixie BIND Version 8 is in final public beta testing. It has a completely new configuration file format, many new features including dynamic update and online change notification, and a better build mechanism than BIND 4.9.5. Paul will give a brief overview of the new config syntax, new features, and will tell once again why we didn't call it BIND Version 5. Paul will also describe the Internet Software Consortium and its other software projects [Schedule subject to change] For further information on BayLISA, check out our web site: http://www.baylisa.org/ To get further information on the meeting location, you can also ftp it from ftp.baylisa.org:/location For any other information, please send email to: info@baylisa.org If you have any questions, please contact me or the info alias listed above. From sage-members-owner Tue Mar 25 16:21:47 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA16954 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:21:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from tanger.etak.com (tanger.etak.com [198.6.248.10]) by usenix.ORG (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA16942 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:21:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from nin by tanger.etak.com (8.7.2/Gateway-2.0) id QAA15289; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:14:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.ETAK.COM by nin (8.7.2/Mailhub-2.1) id QAA02037; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:17:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703260017.QAA02037@ nin> To: baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: nation wide support Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:17:02 -0800 From: "Charles R. Hoynowski" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I have a need to support 20 or so small field offices in major metro areas across the country and I'm looking to use a national computer service provider (for example GE Capital IT Solutions) to outsource this requirement to. I was wondering if anyone on the SAGE-LISA lists has used any of the national "on call" type computer service providers and could recommend any as good or bad choices? _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ Charles R. Hoynowski, Net Admin _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ Etak, Inc., 1430 O'Brien Drive, _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ Menlo Park, CA 94025 _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ Voice:415-617-4458 Fax:617-0161 _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ Email: charles@etak.com From sage-members-owner Tue Apr 8 09:13:19 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA07162 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (POSTOFFICE2.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.56.10]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07119 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BellaLab.gsm.cornell.edu ([128.253.207.125]) by postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA27641 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 12:10:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970408120745.006c7458@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: eer2@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) -- [Cornell Modified] Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 12:07:46 -0400 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Ethan Rafferty Subject: NFS research project -- sorry if you got this twice! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hello, I appologize if you have recieved this twice. I initially accidentally sent it to sage-announce rather than sage-members. Please forgive. On the following web site resides the research instrument for the NFS server research project. It is a simple form which should take 15 or 20 minutes to complete. It's kind of fun: you get to analyze different attributes of an NFS server and make trade-offs between them. 1. Please forward this e-mail right away to anyone you know of who may be interested in participating in the research project. 2. Please complete and submit the form on the web site below by Friday, April 11. This study is being performed by MBA students at Cornell's Johnson Graduate School of Management in order to analyze the market for NFS service in general and for specialized NFS server appliances in particular. The submission of the form is anonymous unless you choose to fill out the fields asking who you are. Thank you for your participation! Ethan Rafferty eer2@cornell.edu From sage-members-owner Thu Apr 10 20:54:30 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) id UAA28364 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.cs.unc.edu (austin.cs.unc.edu [152.2.128.87]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA28355 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lamb.sas.com by austin.cs.unc.edu (8.6.10/UNC_10_05_96) id XAA09360; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:19:23 -0400 Received: from mozart by lamb.sas.com (5.65c/SAS/Gateway/01-23-95) id AA13005; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:19:21 -0400 Received: from coghill.unx.sas.com by mozart (5.65c/SAS/Domains/5-6-90) id AA29930; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:19:09 -0400 Received: by coghill.unx.sas.com (5.65c/SAS/Generic 9.01/3-26-93) id AA05218; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:19:08 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:19:08 -0400 From: Amy Kreiling Message-Id: <199704110319.AA05218@coghill.unx.sas.com> To: ncsa-announce@cs.unc.edu Subject: NC System Administrators meeting -- Alan Clegg -- Monday, 4/14/97 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The next meeting of the North Carolina System Administrators & Managers organization (NC*SA) will be Monday, April 14, at 6pm. Details about the meeting, our technical program and directions to our meeting location are provided in this note. We hope to see you there!! North Carolina System Administration Interest Group Alan Clegg John Rittelmeyer Monday, April 14, 1997 Research Triangle Institute Dreyfus Auditorium Research Triangle Park, NC 6 PM - General Session The NC*SA is pleased to host Alan Clegg, president of Firehouse Network Consulting, Inc. (formerly gateway.com, inc.), and his lawyer, John Rittelmeyer, as speakers for our April meeting. Alan and John will be discussing their recent experiences with the legal issues surounding Internet domain names. Biographical information about Alan is available via his web site: http://www.firehouse.net/resume.html Our meetings are free and open to anyone with an interest in the topic of the evening. We will be providing food and drink for the evening. If you have any questions please contact: Amy K. Kreiling SAS Institute Inc. SAS Campus Drive Cary, NC 27513 (919) 677-8000 x5963 kreiling@unx.sas.com ============================== Have you visited the NC*SA web site, yet? Visit us at: http://netit.com/ncsa/ Your feedback is appreciated! ============================== For information about the NC System Administrators group, contact our Majordomo mailing list server. The "ncsa-discussion" mailing list has been created to facilitate discussions of interest to system administrators from the state of North Carolina. Simply send email to "majordomo@cs.unc.edu": mail majordomo@cs.unc.edu Subject: subscribe ncsa-discussion After subscribing, Majordomo will send you the help file and info file for our mailing list. These files contain instructions for retrieving other files available to the NCSA organization (e.g. the presentation material from past technical programs are available for retrieval via Majordomo!!) ============================== Directions to Research Triangle Institute From I-40 west of RTP (e.g. Chapel Hill): Get onto I-40 heading east. Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham Freeway - North (towards Durham). Stay in right lane. Shift right as soon as possible after merging with traffic coming off I-40 westbound. Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road). At top of exit, turn to the left. (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you are going the wrong direction.) After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From I-40 east of RTP (e.g. Raleigh): Get onto I-40 heading west. Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham Freeway - North (towards Durham). Shift to rightmost lane as soon as possible Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road). At top of exit, turn to the left. (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you are going the wrong direction.) After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From north of RTP (e.g. Durham): Get onto NC-147 - Durham Freeway - south. Exit at the Cornwallis Road exit. At the top of the exit, turn left to cross over the bridge. After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From sage-members-owner Wed Apr 16 09:29:10 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA11076 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hplms26.hpl.hp.com (hplms26.hpl.hp.com [15.255.168.31]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA11067 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hplabsz.hpl.hp.com by hplms26.hpl.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3+HPL1.1S) id AA172627959; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:25:59 -0700 Received: by hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (1.37.109.20/15.5+ECS 3.3+HPL1.1) id AA160597956; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:25:56 -0700 From: deleon@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Laura de Leon) Message-Id: <9704160925.ZM16057@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:25:56 -0700 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.0.0 15dec93) To: baylisa@baylisa.org, rem-conf@es.net, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: BayLISA: Maureen Dorney on Legal Issues In System Administration Cc: deleon@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The BayLISA group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to systems and network administrators. The meetings are free and open to the public. BayLISA holds monthly meetings on the third Thursday of each month at 7:30 PM PST. We meet at Cisco building J in San Jose, on Tasman Drive near First street. See www.baylisa.org for more information. The meetings are also broadcast via MBONE. Schedule -------- April 17: Maureen Dorney on Legal Issues In System Administration [Schedule subject to change] For further information on BayLISA, check out our web site: http://www.baylisa.org/ To get further information on the meeting location, you can also ftp it from ftp.baylisa.org:/location For any other information, please send email to: info@baylisa.org If you have any questions, please contact me or the info alias listed above. From sage-members-owner Wed Apr 16 13:31:55 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA25837 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA25828 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:31:47 -0700 (PDT) From: djb@epx.cis.umn.edu Received: from epx.cis.umn.edu by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: epx.cis.umn.edu [128.101.83.4]) id QQcloj09265; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by epx.cis.umn.edu; Wed, 16 Apr 97 15:28:31 -0500 Message-Id: <0013355366e001699@epx.cis.umn.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 15:28:31 -0500 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: TCSA meeting April 17 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The Twin Cities System Administrators (TCSA) group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to system and network administrators in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota. The meetings are free and open to the public. TCSA meetings are on the third Thursday of each month at 7:00 pm. We will meet at Park Place West (Hwys 394 and 100) at building Conference Room #2 located on the basement level (level P - Parking Level). *** NOTE CHANGE OF ROOM *** Next Meeting: April 17, 1997: Random Security Topics (tentative) Discussion of security-related topics, including CERT advisories and host security procedures. NOTE: If you have information that you would like to share, please send E-mail to djb@epx.cis.umn.edu so that we can have slides or copies made. Proposed agenda: - TCSA Information - Introductions and Announcements Announcements may include Job Postings - Presentation Security Topics - Social Hour Those wishing to gather after the meeting at a local restaurant or bar (TGI-Fridays is down the street). Tentative Meeting Schedule May 15, 1997: Internet 2 June 19, 1997: Network Computers Directions to Park Place West (6465 Wayzata Blvd): Take I394 to the Louisiana Ave. exit. Go east on Wayzata Blvd. (the frontage road on the south side of I394) to the entrance between Fuddruckers and Bennigan's. Proceed through the parking lot to the Park Place West building. Building Conference Room #2 is on the basement level (Level P - Parking level). For more information on TCSA, check out our web site: http://www.tcsa.org/ To subscribe to the TCSA mailing list (from a Unix system): echo "subscribe tcsa" | mailx majordomo@tcsa.org For any other information, please send email to: info@tcsa.org or contact: Dave Bianchi (612) 644-7843 -- Dave Bianchi Pencom System Administration At: Honeywell CAS-SPO djb@epx.cis.umn.edu djb@psa.pencom.com djb@cfsmo.honeywell.com Home: 612-644-7843 Pager: 612-818-7162 Honeywell: 612-957-4532 From sage-members-owner Thu Apr 17 16:02:19 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA23446 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rigel.dartmouth.edu (rigel.dartmouth.edu [129.170.18.204]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA23416 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rigel.dartmouth.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rigel.dartmouth.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA23338 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:59:07 -0400 Message-Id: <199704172259.SAA23338@rigel.dartmouth.edu> To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:59:04 -0500 From: Pat Wilson Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hey, SAGE members! Just a quick note to let you know that SAGE Board members will be at SANS in Baltimore next week (April 21-26) - stop by the SAGE/Usenix booth and say hi. We'll be holding a SAGE BoF on Thursday (4/24) evening - please come! The latest booklet in the SAGE series, _System Security: A Management Perspective_, went into the mail last week to all our members - if you don't see yours by mid-May, please let us know (send mail to office@usenix.org). We'll be sending out an update on SAGE activities and what the Board's been up to shortly after we get home from SANS. Keep those cards and letters coming, and hope to see you next week! Your friendly SAGE Board sage-board@usenix.org From sage-members-owner Wed May 7 13:40:20 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA21398 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 7 May 1997 13:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phibes.dartmouth.edu (phibes.dartmouth.edu [129.170.18.45]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA21358 for ; Wed, 7 May 1997 13:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phibes.dartmouth.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phibes.dartmouth.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA14392 for ; Wed, 7 May 1997 16:37:02 -0400 Message-Id: <199705072037.QAA14392@phibes.dartmouth.edu> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: SAGE Update for May, 1997 Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 16:37:01 -0500 From: Pat Wilson Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hello! The SAGE board held at meeting at the annual SANS Conference last month, of which SAGE is a co-sponsor. Attendance at this year's SANS almost doubled over the previous year! Now that everyone's back from SANS (where we _didn't_ manage to hold a SAGE BoF - apologies to those who looked for it!), it's time for a SAGE status report. SANS seemed to be quite a good show. Along with the advertised program, there were *lots* of BoFs on all sorts of things, including the idea of making SAGE more of a Guild (using master/journeyman/apprentice model). If you were at a BoF which generated good ideas, let the membership know! sage-members can be used to recruit folks for discussion lists, and SAGE can host mailing lists... The SAGE Locals folks, headed by Amy Kreiling (amy@usenix.org) sponsored one of the BoFs - Amy is working to increase the level of support SAGE can give a local group. Right now, she's collecting information and requesting feedback from local groups (info which will eventually make its way onto the SAGE web site). If your local group wasn't represented at SANS and would like to participate, send mail to Amy (amy@usenix.org) or Brian Kirouac (bri@pencom.com). There's currently a page with pointers to many local groups at . In other hot conference news, the LISA '97 extended abstract submission deadline is JUNE 3rd (almost here!). There's still time, though - check out the CFP at and submit! We're also still accepting Invited Talk ideas/proposals - send 'em to itlisa@usenix.org. The LISA NT (Large Scale System Administration of Windows NT) workshop is coming together nicely - look for registration materials very soon. This is a _workshop_, so attendance will be limited. Register early, so you don't miss it! We hope to have a session at LISA with "results" from the workshop, so you can catch up there if you can't get to Seattle in August. SAGE is contemplating the possibility of having a "teraLISA" (very large site) conference or workshop - if you're interested, drop a line to Hal Miller (halm@usenix.org). USENIX and SAGE are pleased to announce that Peter Collinson is now working as our Webmaster. Peter's got plenty of experience, and lots of good ideas - look for neat new things to be happening at the web site in the near future! On other fronts, SAGE was approached by the Maryland Virtual High School project with a request for us to put together and fund a one-day sysadmin class for their (high school) students, which we've done. We'd be happy to consider other such "good works" projects - we're looking for things that fit the mission and charter of SAGE, of course, and for which we're in a unique position to help. Get in touch with Helen Harrison (helen@usenix.org) if you've got ideas or a request. The Code of Ethics , while still "advisory", is being translated into French and Portugese. Discussions are underway with SAGE-AU (which has its own Code) about the possibility of combining the two Codes into one true world-wide document. Please send comments to Hal Miller (halm@usenix.org). He'd also love to hear from you if you're interested in helping the translation effort. The discussion about "Merit Badges" continues - we hope to have a White Paper and FAQ about the proposed program available Real Soon. There's a BoF kit that's available (or will be soon) from SAGE for folks who'd like to hold a SAGE BoF at conferences they attend which don't have a USENIX/SAGE presence - send mail to Tim Gassaway (gassaway@usenix.org) for details. Current members should by now have received your copy of the new Short Topics booklet _System Security: A Management Perspective_. We hope it's helpful (feed it to your CEO) and we'd love your feedback! If you haven't gotten your copy, drop a line to office@usenix.org and let them know. We're still looking for proposals on a Short Topics booklet on "site audits" - see the RFP at for details. Remember, SAGE is _all_ of us. Drop us (sage-board@usenix.org) a note and let us know what's up! Your SAGE Board of Directors From sage-members-owner Thu May 8 14:29:00 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA09827 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 8 May 1997 14:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chronos.synopsys.com (chronos.synopsys.com [146.225.8.10]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA09806 for ; Thu, 8 May 1997 14:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atropos.synopsys.com by chronos.synopsys.com with SMTP id AA26723 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 8 May 1997 14:23:15 -0700 Received: from tikal.synopsys.com (tikal.synopsys.com [146.225.66.61]) by atropos.synopsys.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA20129; Thu, 8 May 1997 14:23:14 -0700 Received: from tikal by tikal.synopsys.com (SMI-8.6/SNPS-Sol2) id OAA02417; Thu, 8 May 1997 14:23:12 -0700 Message-Id: <199705082123.OAA02417@tikal.synopsys.com> To: baylisa@baylisa.org, rem-conf@es.net, sage-members@usenix.org Cc: bigmac@baylisa.org Subject: BayLISA May 15: "Global NT Infrastructure in the Real World" Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 14:23:12 -0700 From: Bryan McDonald Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The BayLISA group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to systems and network administrators. The meetings are free and open to the public. Please feel free to redistribute this meeting announcement. BayLISA holds monthly meetings on the third Thursday of each month at 7:30 PM PST. We meet at Cisco Building J in San Jose, on Tasman Drive near First street. See www.baylisa.org for more information. The meetings are also broadcast via MBONE. Schedule -------- May 15, 1997: "Global NT Infrastructure in the Real World" Xev Gittler & Christopher Rouland, Lehman Brothers [Schedule subject to change] For further information on BayLISA, check out our web site: http://www.baylisa.org/ To get further information on the meeting location, you can also ftp it from ftp.baylisa.org:/BayLISA/location For any other information, please send email to: info@baylisa.org If you have any questions, please contact me or the info alias listed above. =============================================================================== Bryan McDonald bigmac@baylisa.org President president@baylisa.org BayLISA http://www.baylisa.org =============================================================================== From sage-members-owner Fri May 9 11:57:53 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA15831 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 9 May 1997 11:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phibes.dartmouth.edu (phibes.dartmouth.edu [129.170.18.45]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA15819 for ; Fri, 9 May 1997 11:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from paw@localhost) by phibes.dartmouth.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id OAA13221; Fri, 9 May 1997 14:54:41 -0400 Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 14:54:41 -0400 From: paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu Message-Id: <199705091854.OAA13221@phibes.dartmouth.edu> To: sechrest@peak.org Subject: Re: Spam Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hello, I heard a rumor that there was an effort by Usenix/Sage to organize a response to deal with the network SPAM problem. Can you direct me at any resources about this project? ----- John Sechrest . Helping people use PEAK - . computers and the Internet Public Electronic . more effectively Access to Knowledge,Inc . 850 SW 15th Street . Internet: sechrest@peak.org Corvallis Oregon 97331 . (541) 754-7325 . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest SAGE isn't organizing anything, but we do have a link on our home page to a group that does: http://spam.abuse.net/spam/ Pat Wilson paw@dartmouth.edu || paw@usenix.org From sage-members-owner Fri May 9 11:54:09 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA15483 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 9 May 1997 11:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PEAK.ORG (root@PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA15473 for ; Fri, 9 May 1997 11:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (sechrest@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by PEAK.ORG (8.8.5/8.6.7) with ESMTP id LAA08302; Fri, 9 May 1997 11:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705091851.LAA08302@PEAK.ORG> To: Pat Wilson Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Spam In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 07 May 1997 16:37:01. <199705072037.QAA14392@phibes.dartmouth.edu> Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 11:51:06 -0700 From: (John Sechrest) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -------- Hello, I heard a rumor that there was an effort by Usenix/Sage to organize a response to deal with the network SPAM problem. Can you direct me at any resources about this project? ----- John Sechrest . Helping people use PEAK - . computers and the Internet Public Electronic . more effectively Access to Knowledge,Inc . 850 SW 15th Street . Internet: sechrest@peak.org Corvallis Oregon 97331 . (541) 754-7325 . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest From sage-members-owner Fri May 9 12:01:59 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA16081 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 9 May 1997 12:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-int.ssds.com (balder.ssds.com [204.131.72.62]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA16023 for ; Fri, 9 May 1997 12:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by balder-int.ssds.com id MAA26220; Fri, 9 May 1997 12:55:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from losangeles.ssds.com(134.127.30.1) by balder.ssds.com via smap (3.2) id xma026202; Fri, 9 May 97 12:55:22 -0600 Received: by losangeles.ssds.com id LAA10839; Fri, 9 May 1997 11:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705091857.LAA10839@losangeles.ssds.com> X-Sender: jym@losangeles.ssds.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Jennifer Moss Subject: Sr. Unix Sys Admin Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk SAN DIEGO, CA: Leading Edge Systems Integrator seeking UNIX Systems Administrator with 5+ yrs. experience in SUN Solaris or HP-UX environments. Must have excellent knowledge of NFS, NIS+, Sendmail. Oracle a big plus. U.S. Citizenship required. This is a full-time position with complete salary and benefits package. Company willing to pay up to 90k for the right person. Relocation assistance is available, however due to time constraints, prefer local candidates. E-mail or fax resume to: Jennifer Moss Knowledge Workers, Inc. jmoss@kwinet.com fax: (310) 524-9242 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For a full listing of National Job Openings, visit the Knowledge Workers Network http://www.kwinet.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From sage-members-owner Mon May 12 02:59:04 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) id CAA22206 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 12 May 1997 02:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.cs.unc.edu (austin.cs.unc.edu [152.2.128.87]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA22195 for ; Mon, 12 May 1997 02:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lamb.sas.com by austin.cs.unc.edu (8.6.10/UNC_10_05_96) id FAA02353; Mon, 12 May 1997 05:23:03 -0400 Received: from mozart by lamb.sas.com (5.65c/SAS/Gateway/01-23-95) id AA24230; Mon, 12 May 1997 05:23:01 -0400 Received: from coghill.unx.sas.com by mozart (5.65c/SAS/Domains/5-6-90) id AA05776; Fri, 9 May 1997 15:46:34 -0400 Received: by coghill.unx.sas.com (5.65c/SAS/Generic 9.01/3-26-93) id AA18019; Fri, 9 May 1997 15:46:25 -0400 Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 15:46:25 -0400 From: Amy Kreiling Message-Id: <199705091946.AA18019@coghill.unx.sas.com> To: ncsa-announce@cs.unc.edu Subject: North Carolina Systems Administrator meeting - Monday, 5/12/97, 6pm Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The next meeting of the North Carolina System Administrators & Managers organization (NC*SA) will be Monday, May 12, at 6pm. Details about the meeting, our technical program and directions to our meeting location are provided in this note. We hope to see you there!! North Carolina System Administration Interest Group The FreeBSD Project Monday, May 12, 1997 Research Triangle Institute Dreyfus Auditorium Research Triangle Park, NC 6 PM - General Session Our speaker for the evening: Jonathan M. Bresler is the Postmaster for The FreeBSD Project since February 1995. He began using 386/BSD-0.1 (a precursor to FreeBSD) in the summer of 1992 and moved to FreeBSD soon after its initial release in the winter of 1993. Since that time, he has used FreeBSD to model underwater sound propagation, manage and monitor complex computer networks, and tame sendmail.cf files. Jonathan holds a BS in Electrical Engineering from the University of Maryland and a BA from the University of Chicago. He has worked on and with computers since 1981. His work experience includes digital logic design, embedded software, and applications programming. When not hacking FreeBSD, Jonathan can be found either working as a Communications Analyst at The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC, USA or riding his bicycle in the Maryland countryside. Our meetings are free and open to anyone with an interest in the topic of the evening. We will be providing food and drink for the evening. If you have any questions please contact: Amy K. Kreiling SAS Institute Inc. SAS Campus Drive Cary, NC 27513 (919) 677-8000 x5963 kreiling@unx.sas.com ============================== Have you visited the NC*SA web site, yet? Visit us at: http://netit.com/ncsa/ Your feedback is appreciated! ============================== For information about the NC System Administrators group, contact our Majordomo mailing list server. The "ncsa-discussion" mailing list has been created to facilitate discussions of interest to system administrators from the state of North Carolina. Simply send email to "majordomo@cs.unc.edu": mail majordomo@cs.unc.edu Subject: subscribe ncsa-discussion After subscribing, Majordomo will send you the help file and info file for our mailing list. These files contain instructions for retrieving other files available to the NCSA organization (e.g. the presentation material from past technical programs are available for retrieval via Majordomo!!) ============================== Directions to Research Triangle Institute From I-40 west of RTP (e.g. Chapel Hill): Get onto I-40 heading east. Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham Freeway - North (towards Durham). Stay in right lane. Shift right as soon as possible after merging with traffic coming off I-40 westbound. Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road). At top of exit, turn to the left. (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you are going the wrong direction.) After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From I-40 east of RTP (e.g. Raleigh): Get onto I-40 heading west. Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham Freeway - North (towards Durham). Shift to rightmost lane as soon as possible Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road). At top of exit, turn to the left. (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you are going the wrong direction.) After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From north of RTP (e.g. Durham): Get onto NC-147 - Durham Freeway - south. Exit at the Cornwallis Road exit. At the top of the exit, turn left to cross over the bridge. After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From sage-members-owner Mon May 12 07:55:04 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) id HAA07023 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 12 May 1997 07:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.his.com (root@rocky.his.com [205.177.25.13]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA07014 for ; Mon, 12 May 1997 07:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pc.dooh.com (root@bri.his.com [205.252.83.54]) by rocky.his.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA05509 for ; Mon, 12 May 1997 10:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from strider.dooh.com (root@strider.dooh.com [10.1.1.100]) by pc.dooh.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA16156 for ; Mon, 12 May 1997 09:43:05 -0400 Received: from strider.dooh.com (bri@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by strider.dooh.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27386 for ; Mon, 12 May 1997 10:51:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199705121451.KAA27386@strider.dooh.com> From: bri@dc-sage.org Reply-to: bri@dc-sage.org To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [DC-SAGE] next meeting May 20 Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:51:15 -0400 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Reminder: The next dc-sage meeting will be on Tuesday, May 20. Please see the web page for directions. The agenda will include: 7:00 - dinner 7:30 - intros, news, jobs - Rob presents PGP key-signing (followup to April's presentation of PGP for Systems Administrators) - Randy presents LPRng For more information and directions plese see: http://www.dc-sage.org Hope to see you there! From sage-members-owner Tue May 13 10:52:24 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA27863 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 13 May 1997 10:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA27854 for ; Tue, 13 May 1997 10:52:19 -0700 (PDT) From: djb@epx.cis.umn.edu Received: from epx.cis.umn.edu by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: epx.cis.umn.edu [128.101.83.4]) id QQcpjr02142; Tue, 13 May 1997 13:48:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by epx.cis.umn.edu; Tue, 13 May 97 12:48:46 -0500 Message-Id: <0013378a97c013520@epx.cis.umn.edu> Date: Tue, 13 May 97 12:48:46 -0500 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: TCSA meeting May 15 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The Twin Cities System Administrators (TCSA) group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to system and network administrators in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota. The meetings are free and open to the public. TCSA meetings are on the third Thursday of each month at 7:00 pm. We will meet at Park Place West (Hwys 394 and 100) at building Conference Room #2 located on the basement level (level P - Parking Level). *** NOTE CHANGE OF ROOM *** Next Meeting: May 15, 1997: Internet 2, Tom Barron, University of Minnesota Tom will talk about Internet 2 - the next educational and research network. Proposed agenda: - TCSA Information - Introductions and Announcements Announcements may include Job Postings - Presentation Internet 2 - Social Hour Those wishing to gather after the meeting at a local restaurant or bar (TGI-Fridays is down the street). Tentative Meeting Schedule June 19, 1997: Network Computers July 17, 1997: Year 2000 Issues *** NOTE: we don't have meeting space available for either the June or July meeting yet. Please send a note to djb@epx.cis.umn.edu if you can help out. Directions to Park Place West (6465 Wayzata Blvd): Take I394 to the Louisiana Ave. exit. Go east on Wayzata Blvd. (the frontage road on the south side of I394) to the entrance between Fuddruckers and Bennigan's. Proceed through the parking lot to the Park Place West building. Building Conference Room #2 is on the basement level (Level P - Parking level). For more information on TCSA, check out our web site: http://www.tcsa.org/ To subscribe to the TCSA mailing list (from a Unix system): echo "subscribe tcsa" | mailx majordomo@tcsa.org For any other information, please send email to: info@tcsa.org or contact: Dave Bianchi (612) 644-7843 -- Dave Bianchi Pencom System Administration At: Honeywell CAS-SPO djb@epx.cis.umn.edu djb@psa.pencom.com djb@cfsmo.honeywell.com Home: 612-644-7843 Pager: 612-818-7162 Honeywell: 612-957-4532 From sage-members-owner Sun Jun 8 08:01:40 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA05281 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 08:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.cs.unc.edu (austin.cs.unc.edu [152.2.128.87]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA05272 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 08:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gibbs.oit.unc.edu by austin.cs.unc.edu (8.6.10/UNC_10_05_96) id IAA23136; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 08:35:48 -0400 Received: by gibbs.oit.unc.edu (8.7.5/10.1) id IAA20359; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 08:35:46 -0400 (GMT+4:00) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 08:35:45 -0400 From: Judy Hallman To: ncsa-announce@cs.unc.edu Subject: RTPnet needs help with software development; mtg June 18 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk To ncsa-announce list: I'm hoping there are some people on this list who might like to help RTPnet (http://www.RTPnet.org/). We need additional experienced system administrators. Judy ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:23:30 -0400 From: Judy Hallman To: RTPnet Subject: RTPnet needs help with software development; mtg June 18 To RTPnet list: Copies to people who have volunteered. Future messages will only be to the RTPnet list. If you are not on the list, send to listserv@unc.edu a message containing subscribe rtpnet yourfirstname yourlastname Many of you have asked how you can help RTPnet. I think we can now start installing software on the RTPnet machine. We need help selecting, installing, testing, and documenting software and establishing priorities. We need a wide range of skills, from experienced system administrators to less experienced people who are willing to test and document. We've scheduled a meeting for Wednesday, June 18, 6:30 pm, Dreyfus Auditorium (thanks to Roger Austin). Directions to Dreyfus are included below. I'd appreciate e-mail BEFORE the meeting (to judy_hallman@unc.edu). Please send me a resume, if you have one. At least indicate what you would like to do and your skills. Here's my wish list: -- Local forums -- select and implement software to provide discussion forums; messages that are posted immediately to the Web pages (For info on what UNC-CH is using, see http://www.unc.edu/courses/ssp/disforum.html and an example of use at http://www.unc.edu/campus/sigs/icc/whatsnew.htm#allBoards . Also see discussion of other software at http://www.unc.edu/campus/aboutweb/walkers/mtgs/96oct18.html ) -- Allow page counters -- cgi script support; at least gform (see http://www.unc.edu/campus/aboutweb/howto/cgi/gform.html) -- Statistics -- select and implement software to report on pages accessed and sites accessing us -- Listserv/listproc; current thinking of the Board is to use exploders -- Select and implement search (indexing and retrieval) software -- Complete registration software (not needed until there are public facilities for e-mail) -- What else? To get to Dreyfus, take Davis Drive North from I-40 to Cornwallis Road. Turn left on Cornwallis at the light. At the bottom of the hill, turn left on Institute Drive. Take the second right into the parking lot for Dreyfus laboratory. Go through the front door of the building, across the lobby, and out the other side. The auditorium is straight ahead, in a separate building. Entrance doors are on the left and right. Judy Hallman (judy_hallman@unc.edu, http://www.unc.edu/~hallman/) Executive Director, RTPnet, NC (http://www.RTPnet.org/) From sage-members-owner Wed Jun 11 14:49:10 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA22656 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jun 1997 14:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phibes.dartmouth.edu (phibes.dartmouth.edu [129.170.18.45]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA22629 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 1997 14:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phibes.dartmouth.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phibes.dartmouth.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA13007 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 1997 17:45:51 -0400 Message-Id: <199706112145.RAA13007@phibes.dartmouth.edu> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: SAGE "Short Topics" editor appointed Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 17:45:51 -0500 From: Pat Wilson Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The SAGE Board is pleased to announce the appointment of Idajean Fisher as "Short Topics Series Editor". In this role, Idajean will oversee the booklet creation process, issuing new RFPs, coordinating proposal (and later draft) readers, working with authors, and in general ensuring that SAGE continues to produce useful and timely additions to the Short Topics in Systems Administration series. If you're interested in volunteering as a reader or are interested in making a proposal for a new booklet, feel free to drop her a line (idajean@usenix.org). Current booklets are in progress on education, legal issues, and hiring; the next anticipated to be published is the education one, which should come out in the next few months. Keep those cards and letters coming! Pat Wilson SAGE Board Pubs liason paw@usenix.org || paw@dartmouth.edu From sage-members-owner Wed Jun 11 19:47:12 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA07628 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chronos.synopsys.com (chronos.synopsys.com [146.225.8.10]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA07619 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atropos.synopsys.com by chronos.synopsys.com with SMTP id AA27904 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:43:23 -0700 Received: from tikal.synopsys.com (tikal.synopsys.com [146.225.66.61]) by atropos.synopsys.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA19351; Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:43:25 -0700 Received: from tikal by tikal.synopsys.com (SMI-8.6/SNPS-Sol2) id TAA27651; Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:43:23 -0700 Message-Id: <199706120243.TAA27651@tikal.synopsys.com> To: baylisa@baylisa.org, rem-conf@es.net, sage-members@usenix.org Cc: bigmac@baylisa.org Subject: BayLISA June 19: Robert Harker on Sendmail Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:43:23 -0700 From: Bryan McDonald Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The BayLISA group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to systems and network administrators. The meetings are free and open to the public. Please feel free to redistribute this meeting announcement. BayLISA holds monthly meetings on the third Thursday of each month at 7:30 PM PST. We meet at Cisco Building J in San Jose, on Tasman Drive near First street. See www.baylisa.org for more information. The meetings are also broadcast via MBONE. Schedule -------- June 19, 1997: Robert Harker, Sendmail [Schedule subject to change] For further information on BayLISA, check out our web site: http://www.baylisa.org/ To get further information on the meeting location, you can also ftp it from ftp.baylisa.org:/BayLISA/location For any other information, please send email to: info@baylisa.org If you have any questions, please contact me or the info alias listed above. =============================================================================== Bryan McDonald bigmac@baylisa.org President president@baylisa.org BayLISA http://www.baylisa.org =============================================================================== From sage-members-owner Fri Jun 13 17:53:47 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA13592 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 17:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chronos.synopsys.com (chronos.synopsys.com [146.225.8.10]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA13583 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 17:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atropos.synopsys.com by chronos.synopsys.com with SMTP id AA16340 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Fri, 13 Jun 1997 17:49:49 -0700 Received: from tikal.synopsys.com (tikal.synopsys.com [146.225.66.61]) by atropos.synopsys.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA22131; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 17:49:51 -0700 Received: from tikal by tikal.synopsys.com (SMI-8.6/SNPS-Sol2) id RAA11465; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 17:49:50 -0700 Message-Id: <199706140049.RAA11465@tikal.synopsys.com> To: baylisa@baylisa.org, rem-conf@es.net, sage-members@usenix.org Cc: bigmac@baylisa.org Subject: BayLISA June 19: Robert Harker on LDAP and Sendmail 8.8 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 17:49:49 -0700 From: Bryan McDonald Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The BayLISA group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to systems and network administrators. The meetings are free and open to the public. Please feel free to redistribute this meeting announcement. BayLISA holds monthly meetings on the third Thursday of each month at 7:30 PM PST. We meet at Cisco Building J in San Jose, on Tasman Drive near First street. See www.baylisa.org for more information. The meetings are also broadcast via MBONE. Schedule ======== June 19, 1997: Robert Harker, LDAP and Sendmail 8.8 "Lightwight Directory Access Protocol (LDAP) is currently one of the buzz words used by the Internet software providers. It is touted as the solution to all of you information directory needs. The problem is that not very many people know about it much less how an organization can use it, much less how to impliment and deploy it. This talk is an introduction to what LDAP is and how to use it. It is based on my studies of using LDAP with sendmail 8.8." [Schedule subject to change] For further information on BayLISA, check out our web site: http://www.baylisa.org/ To get further information on the meeting location, you can also ftp it from ftp.baylisa.org:/BayLISA/location For any other information, please send email to: info@baylisa.org If you have any questions, please contact me or the info alias listed above. =============================================================================== Bryan McDonald bigmac@baylisa.org President president@baylisa.org BayLISA http://www.baylisa.org =============================================================================== From sage-members-owner Tue Jun 17 08:04:29 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21996 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sirocco.CC.McGill.CA (sirocco.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.27.12]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA21987 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maelstrom.CC.McGill.CA (maelstrom.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.35.2]) by sirocco.CC.McGill.CA (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id LAA14971 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:06:53 -0400 X-SMTP-Posting-Origin: maelstrom.CC.McGill.CA (maelstrom.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.35.2]) Received: by maelstrom.CC.McGill.CA with Microsoft Mail id <01BC7B0D.DBD9DA10@maelstrom.CC.McGill.CA>; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:01:51 -0400 Message-ID: <01BC7B0D.DBD9DA10@maelstrom.CC.McGill.CA> From: Yves Lepage To: "'sage-members@usenix.org'" Subject: Unix install base Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:01:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, I am looking for stats on how large is the Unix installed base (worldwide) compared to other platforms like NT or Novell (or others). Thanks in advance, Yves Lepage From sage-members-owner Tue Jun 17 14:28:59 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA09711 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nik.b29.ingr.com (nik.b29.ingr.com [129.135.160.89]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA09702 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nikpc (nikpc.b29.ingr.com [129.135.160.129]) by nik.b29.ingr.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA26111 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:32:43 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199706172132.QAA26111@nik.b29.ingr.com> From: "Nik Simpson" To: "'sage-members@usenix.org'" Subject: Re: Unix install base Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:20:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.0912.0 X-MimeOle: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.0912.0 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >Hi all, > >I am looking for stats on how large is the Unix installed base (worldwide) >compared to other platforms like NT or Novell (or others). > >Thanks in advance, >Yves Lepage > You'll have to define what you mean by install base before you can get any sort of useful statistics. For example does a UNIX or NT server supporting 200 clients count as 1 or 200?, does private hobbyist's machines running LINUX count? etc. etc. -- Nik Simpson (ndsimpso@ingr.com) From sage-members-owner Wed Jun 18 10:14:23 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA27014 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from poptart.home.net (poptart.svr.home.net [24.0.26.24]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27005 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from srs-lap.eos.home.net (nt-dhcp20.eos.home.net [24.0.16.20]) by poptart.home.net (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with ESMTP id AAA17602; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:10:53 -0700 Message-ID: <33A81676.A0AE0A4B@corp.home.net> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:10:14 -0700 From: srs@corp.home.net (Steve Smith) Reply-To: srs@corp.home.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nik Simpson CC: "'sage-members@usenix.org'" Subject: Re: Unix install base X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199706172132.QAA26111@nik.b29.ingr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Nik Simpson wrote: > > >Hi all, > > > >I am looking for stats on how large is the Unix installed base > (worldwide) > >compared to other platforms like NT or Novell (or others). > > > >Thanks in advance, > >Yves Lepage > > > > You'll have to define what you mean by install base before you can get any > sort of useful statistics. For example does > a UNIX or NT server supporting 200 clients count as 1 or 200?, does private > hobbyist's machines running LINUX count? etc. etc. > > -- > Nik Simpson (ndsimpso@ingr.com) Also, are you just counting hosts or hosts + people using the systems, and w/r/t servers are you interested in clients systems? I.e, please state exactly what you need. -Steve -- srs@home.net From sage-members-owner Wed Jun 18 13:53:47 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA06827 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chronos.synopsys.com (chronos.synopsys.com [146.225.8.10]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA06811; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atropos.synopsys.com by chronos.synopsys.com with SMTP id AA24819 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4); Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:18:39 -0700 Received: from intrepid.synopsys.com (intrepid.synopsys.com [146.225.66.45]) by atropos.synopsys.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA25420; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:50:00 -0700 Received: from intrepid by intrepid.synopsys.com (SMI-8.6/SNPS-Sol2) id NAA09964; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:49:59 -0700 Message-Id: <199706182049.NAA09964@intrepid.synopsys.com> To: sage-announce@usenix.org, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: nominations for 1997 SAGE Achievement Award Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:49:59 -0700 From: Paul Evans Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk SAGE is soliciting nominations for its fifth annual Achievement Award, to be presented this October in San Diego at the SAGE/USENIX LISA '97 Conference. The SAGE board has set up a special committee to select this year's recipient, and we're inviting your suggestions. The award will go to someone whose professional contributions to the system administration community over a number of years merit special recognition. Past recipients of the award are: Rob Kolstad and Max Vasilatos in 1993, for their role in organizing the early LISA conferences, and general contributions to the system administration community. Larry Wall in 1994, for his work on Perl and other system administration tools. Evi Nemeth in 1995, for her contributions to the system administration and student community. Elizabeth Zwicky in 1996, for her role in the founding of SAGE. The awards committee would like to keep the selection process informal; there isn't a formal nominating procedure, and we will consider all suggestions submitted. So please send in suggestions for people whose professional accomplishments you believe deserve the recognition of a SAGE Achievement Award to sage-award@usenix.org by Friday, 1 August 1997. Paul Evans Pat Wilson SAGE Board of Directors From sage-members-owner Wed Jun 18 15:26:47 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA10896 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA10887 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (spooky.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.3.7]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id RAA28157 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:23:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199706182223.RAA28157@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: "'sage-members@usenix.org'" Subject: Re: Unix install base In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:10:14 PDT." <33A81676.A0AE0A4B@corp.home.net> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:23:25 -0500 From: Gene Rackow Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk There are already several commercial companies that gather information along these lines. The amount of info you are going to get by asking the Sage group is going to only be a tip of the iceberg as to what may actually be out there. I'm blanking on the name of the publication right now, but I'm sure that if you call your local major vendor salesoid, they will be able to point you at it. In part is it claims as to how many machines they have compared to their competition. For the versions of unix you can get off the net, it'g going to be rather hard to say how many machines are actually using it. Yuo could possibly contact the acrive sites and ask for numbers downloaded or CDrom's purchased, but that tells you very little. I bought a CDrom, dowloaded a second version, and installed 40 machines. --Gene Steve Smith made the following keystrokes: >Nik Simpson wrote: >> >> >Hi all, >> > >> >I am looking for stats on how large is the Unix installed base >> (worldwide) >> >compared to other platforms like NT or Novell (or others). >> > >> >Thanks in advance, >> >Yves Lepage >> > >> >> You'll have to define what you mean by install base before you can get any >> sort of useful statistics. For example does >> a UNIX or NT server supporting 200 clients count as 1 or 200?, does private >> hobbyist's machines running LINUX count? etc. etc. >> >> -- >> Nik Simpson (ndsimpso@ingr.com) > >Also, are you just counting hosts or hosts + people using the systems, >and w/r/t servers are you interested in clients systems? I.e, please >state exactly what you need. > >-Steve >-- >srs@home.net > From sage-members-owner Wed Jun 18 20:40:44 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA23087 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA23078 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from batie@localhost) by agora.rdrop.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA28307; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:37:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Batie Message-Id: <199706190337.UAA28307@agora.rdrop.com> Subject: Re: BayLISA June 19: Robert Harker on Sendmail To: bigmac@synopsys.com (Bryan McDonald) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:37:05 -0700 (PDT) Cc: baylisa@baylisa.org, rem-conf@es.net, sage-members@usenix.org, bigmac@baylisa.org In-Reply-To: <199706120243.TAA27651@tikal.synopsys.com> from "Bryan McDonald" at Jun 11, 97 07:43:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > June 19, 1997: Robert Harker, Sendmail I would have tuned in, but the channel information was nowhere to be found... -- Alan Batie ______ It's not my fault! It's some guy batie@agora.rdrop.com \ / named "General Protection"! +1 503 452-0960 \ / --Ratbert PGP FP: DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 \/ 7A 27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 It is my policy to avoid purchase of any products from companies which use unrequested email advertisements or telephone solicitation. From sage-members-owner Wed Jun 18 21:07:21 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA24142 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chronos.synopsys.com (chronos.synopsys.com [146.225.8.10]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA24133 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atropos.synopsys.com by chronos.synopsys.com with SMTP id AA14148 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:32:14 -0700 Received: from tikal.synopsys.com (tikal.synopsys.com [146.225.66.61]) by atropos.synopsys.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA29415; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:03:34 -0700 Received: from tikal by tikal.synopsys.com (SMI-8.6/SNPS-Sol2) id VAA22063; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:03:33 -0700 Message-Id: <199706190403.VAA22063@tikal.synopsys.com> To: baylisa@baylisa.org, rem-conf@es.net, sage-members@usenix.org Cc: bigmac@baylisa.org Subject: BayLISA June 19: Robert Harker on LDAP and Sendmail 8.8 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:03:33 -0700 From: Bryan McDonald Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk ===Last reminder about tomorrow nights talk.=== The BayLISA group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to systems and network administrators. The meetings are free and open to the public. Please feel free to redistribute this meeting announcement. BayLISA holds monthly meetings on the third Thursday of each month at 7:30 PM PST. We meet at Cisco Building J in San Jose, on Tasman Drive near First street. See www.baylisa.org for more information. The meetings are also broadcast via MBONE. Schedule ======== June 19, 1997: Robert Harker, LDAP and Sendmail 8.8 "Lightwight Directory Access Protocol (LDAP) is currently one of the buzz words used by the Internet software providers. It is touted as the solution to all of you information directory needs. The problem is that not very many people know about it much less how an organization can use it, much less how to impliment and deploy it. This talk is an introduction to what LDAP is and how to use it. It is based on my studies of using LDAP with sendmail 8.8." [Schedule subject to change] For further information on BayLISA, check out our web site: http://www.baylisa.org/ To get further information on the meeting location, you can also ftp it from ftp.baylisa.org:/BayLISA/location For any other information, please send email to: info@baylisa.org If you have any questions, please contact me or the info alias listed above. =============================================================================== Bryan McDonald bigmac@baylisa.org President president@baylisa.org BayLISA http://www.baylisa.org =============================================================================== From sage-members-owner Thu Jun 19 09:11:39 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27424 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pip1.pipcom.com (root@pip1.pipcom.com [207.61.241.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA27256; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.staveley.com (staveley.com [207.61.241.239]) by pip1.pipcom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA07061; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:06:52 -0400 Received: from kobold.staveley.com by mail.staveley.com (SMI-8.6/MSC-1.4) id MAA05584; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:01:55 -0400 Received: by kobold.staveley.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA08313; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:01:54 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:01:54 -0400 Message-Id: <199706191601.MAA08313@kobold.staveley.com> From: Marc Staveley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: sage-award@usenix.org Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: nominations for 1997 SAGE Achievement Award In-Reply-To: <199706182049.NAA09964@intrepid.synopsys.com> References: <199706182049.NAA09964@intrepid.synopsys.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: Marc Staveley X-Attribution: marc X-Explanation: X-face is a small image visible to newer mail programs X-Face: #[n,yS9x`8\&4KV!K=k5veZh%oz-#WL;YArZy+1}#moaRys0t9(%%prJJ9"&UA 8b%s!OLE.Exx6kY}z>Swxg*;gT;oy7BJv?8w"nXvK3h<(j8"%Vc^Y}]G l5a3D6v!\S`BtWR.GhK7%"y@pl9K7C9UNY4p:U{{z@ommxhE9mrbp!92Gv],~v Bi<}_H,fR-H#6("'m~5R64qNW648=0jFw)IM1N>+pLP0P; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atropos.synopsys.com by chronos.synopsys.com with SMTP id AA03031 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:08:21 -0700 Received: from tikal.synopsys.com (tikal.synopsys.com [146.225.66.61]) by atropos.synopsys.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA03090; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:38:28 -0700 Received: from tikal.synopsys.com by tikal.synopsys.com (SMI-8.6/SNPS-Sol2) id AAA24320; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:38:27 -0700 Message-Id: <199707040738.AAA24320@tikal.synopsys.com> To: baylisa@baylisa.org, rem-conf@es.net, sage-members@usenix.org Cc: bigmac@baylisa.org Subject: BayLISA July 17: Panel: Large scale file servers Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 00:38:27 -0700 From: Bryan McDonald Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The BayLISA group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to systems and network administrators. The meetings are free and open to the public. Please feel free to redistribute this meeting announcement. BayLISA holds monthly meetings on the third Thursday of each month at 7:30 PM PST. We meet at Cisco Building J in San Jose, on Tasman Drive near First street. See www.baylisa.org for more information. The meetings are also broadcast via MBONE. Schedule ======== July 17, 1997: Panel: Large scale file servers BayLISA is working to bring together a technology (rather then marketing) oriented discussion of large scale file servers on the market. More details as we finalize the roster. [Schedule subject to change] For further information on BayLISA, check out our web site: http://www.baylisa.org/ To get further information on the meeting location, you can also ftp it from ftp.baylisa.org:/BayLISA/location For any other information, please send email to: info@baylisa.org If you have any questions, please contact me or the info alias listed above. =============================================================================== Bryan McDonald bigmac@baylisa.org President president@baylisa.org BayLISA http://www.baylisa.org =============================================================================== ------- End of Forwarded Message From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 9 15:45:05 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA15414 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.nando.net (storm.nando.net [152.52.2.139]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA15393 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by storm.nando.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id RAA26262 for ncsa-announce-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:49:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.nando.net: majordomo set sender to owner-ncsa-announce@nando.net using -f Received: from localhost (flanh@localhost) by storm.nando.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA26253 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:49:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:49:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Heather Flanagan To: ncsa-announce@nando.net Subject: North Carolina System Administrators (NC*SA) meeting - July 14, 6pm Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The next meeting of the North Carolina System Administrators & Managers organization (NC*SA) will be Monday, July 14, 1997, at 6pm. Details about the meeting, our technical program and directions to our meeting location are provided in this note. We hope to see you there!! North Carolina System Administration Interest Group Single Protocol Networks Using TCP/IP Monday, July 14, 1997 Research Triangle Institute Research Triangle Park, NC 6 PM - General Session Abstract: There's major trend in the industry to move towards single protocol networks using TCP/IP as the protocol of choice. The advantages of using a single protocol network over multi-protocol networks include reduced complexity, equipment costs, and support costs, just to name a few. Dave Jordan of Paranet will describe in more detail the why, what, and the hows of using TCP/IP as the primary network protocol. Topics: Why a single protocol Why TCP/IP Industry Best Practices Reserved Addresses (RFC 1918) Network Address Translation (RFC 1631) Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol Systems and Workstations Internet Access IP Version 6 Presenter: David A. Jordan Dave Jordan has over 15 years experience in the Communications and Networking industry. He holds a Master's degree in Electrical Engineering specializing in Communication Systems. Through out his career he has been in involved in the evaluation and deployment of many different Networking technologies, such as Frame Relay, Etherswitching, Fast Ethernet, SNMP Management, and TCP/IP. He has written white papers on Frame Relay and Deterministic Etherswitching using Demand Polling, and has taught networking technologies at several businesses and colleges. Mr. Jordan is currently the Technical Manager for the Raleigh branch of Paranet, Inc. Paranet is a leading national service provider for the integration and management of distributed computing environments. Our meetings are free and open to anyone with an interest in the topic of the evening. We will be providing food and drink for the evening. If you have any questions please contact: Amy K. Kreiling SAS Institute Inc. SAS Campus Drive Cary, NC 27513 (919) 677-8000 x5963 kreiling@unx.sas.com ============================== NOTICE!!! The NC*SA web site has moved. It's new location is: http://www.webslingerZ.com/sburnett/ncsa/index.html As always, your comments & feedback are appreciated! ============================== For information about the NC System Administrators group, contact our Majordomo mailing list server. The "ncsa-discussion" mailing list has been created to facilitate discussions of interest to system administrators from the state of North Carolina. Simply send email to "majordomo@nando.net": mail majordomo@nando.net Subject: subscribe ncsa-discussion After subscribing, Majordomo will send you the help file and info file for our mailing list. These files contain instructions for retrieving other files available to the NCSA organization (e.g. the presentation material from past technical programs are available for retrieval via Majordomo!!) ============================== Directions to Research Triangle Institute From I-40 west of RTP (e.g. Chapel Hill): Get onto I-40 heading east. Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham Freeway - North (towards Durham). Stay in right lane. Shift right as soon as possible after merging with traffic coming off I-40 westbound. Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road). At top of exit, turn to the left. (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you are going the wrong direction.) After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From I-40 east of RTP (e.g. Raleigh): Get onto I-40 heading west. Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham Freeway - North (towards Durham). Shift to rightmost lane as soon as possible Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road). At top of exit, turn to the left. (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you are going the wrong direction.) After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From north of RTP (e.g. Durham): Get onto NC-147 - Durham Freeway - south. Exit at the Cornwallis Road exit. At the top of the exit, turn left to cross over the bridge. After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From sage-members-owner Mon Jul 14 21:37:25 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA12671 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jackalope.lcc.whecn.edu (chardy@jackalope.lcc.whecn.edu [137.87.2.5]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA12662 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chardy@localhost) by jackalope.lcc.whecn.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id WAA26295; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:48:58 -0600 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:48:58 -0600 From: Chris Hardy Subject: Question To: sage-members@usenix.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Well, this message list doesn't get a whole lot of use, so I thought I would throw a question out. I've moved to Utah, away from my Sys Admin job so that I can go to a complete College. I've done all that I can to find a SysAdmin related job but haven't been able to find a job here. I've had 3 yrs experiance, and 1 1/2 of college. I realize I might have to just give up Admining till I graduate. But I love admining and down't want to fall behind in the technology. Any Suggestions would be appreciated. Chris Hardy From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 15 06:14:46 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA06609 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3.smtp.psi.net (relay3.smtp.psi.net [38.8.210.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA06600 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pure.PureAtria.COM by relay3.smtp.psi.net (8.8.3/SMI-5.4-PSI) id JAA22751; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:11:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pure.PURE_IS (dhcp8198.pureatria.com [192.232.8.198]) by pure.PureAtria.COM (8.7.6/8.7.3/PUREATRIA.COM) with SMTP id GAA24578; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970715060936.006bb5c4@pureatria.com> X-Sender: rdiez@pureatria.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:09:36 -0700 To: Chris Hardy From: Randy Diez Subject: Re: Question Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi Chris! I recommend trying schools, colleges, hospitals, local government agencies, and non-profit orgs. Volunteering is also a good way to get in on the ground floor of some places. Keep networking with people as well as machines. This message list is a good start. -Randy At 10:48 PM 7/14/97 -0600, you wrote: > Well, this message list doesn't get a whole lot of use, so I >thought I would throw a question out. I've moved to Utah, away from my >Sys Admin job so that I can go to a complete College. I've done all that >I can to find a SysAdmin related job but haven't been able to find a job >here. I've had 3 yrs experiance, and 1 1/2 of college. I realize I >might have to just give up Admining till I graduate. But I love admining >and down't want to fall behind in the technology. Any Suggestions would >be appreciated. > >Chris Hardy > > ______________________________________________________ Randy Diez IS Buckaroo/Corp-IS Pure Atria Software (408)863-4186 http://www.pureatria.com mailto:rdiez@pureatria.com ______________________________________________________ Check this out! -Friends of the River http://www.friendsoftheriver.org From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 16 07:04:00 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA23367 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 07:04:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epx.cis.umn.edu (root@epx.cis.umn.edu [128.101.83.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA23303 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 07:03:51 -0700 (PDT) From: djb@epx.cis.umn.edu Received: by epx.cis.umn.edu; Wed, 16 Jul 97 09:00:28 -0500 Message-Id: <00133ccd3fb023275@epx.cis.umn.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 97 09:00:28 -0500 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: TCSA meeting July 17 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The Twin Cities System Administrators (TCSA) group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to system and network administrators in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota. The meetings are free and open to the public. TCSA meetings are on the third Thursday of each month at 7:00 pm. *** NOTE JULY MEETING IS CANCELLED *** Next Meeting: July 17, 1997: Cancelled Since we don't have our normal meeting space for July, the July meeting is cancelled. Tentative Meeting Schedule August 21, 1997: Network Computers September 18, 1997: Year 2000 Issues *** NOTE: we don't have meeting space available for the September meeting. Please send a note to djb@epx.cis.umn.edu if you can help out. For more information on TCSA, check out our web site: http://www.tcsa.org/ To subscribe to the TCSA mailing list (from a Unix system): echo "subscribe tcsa" | mailx majordomo@tcsa.org For any other information, please send email to: info@tcsa.org or contact: Dave Bianchi (612) 644-7843 -- Dave Bianchi Pencom System Administration At: Honeywell CAS-SPO djb@epx.cis.umn.edu djb@psa.pencom.com djb@cfsmo.honeywell.com Home: 612-644-7843 Pager: 612-818-7162 Honeywell: 612-957-4532 From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 16 12:33:17 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA19114 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kiowa.wildstar.net (falcon@kiowa.wildstar.net [198.203.196.143]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19105 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (falcon@localhost) by kiowa.wildstar.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA01711 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:29:39 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:29:39 -0500 (CDT) From: "R. Wyatt" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: a question regarding resumes Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hello, I am currently in the process of looking for a job and I have one of those infernal skills matrices on my resume, but my question is how far do you go with the flavors of unix? any suggestions would be appreciated. Randy From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 16 14:27:37 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA25447 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.research.att.com (ns.research.att.com [192.20.225.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA25407 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:27:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from research.att.com ([135.205.32.20]) by ns; Wed Jul 16 17:23:56 EDT 1997 Received: from raptor.research.att.com ([135.207.23.32]) by research; Wed Jul 16 17:20:32 EDT 1997 Received: (from dgk@localhost) by raptor.research.att.com (8.8.5/8.7) id RAA13634 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:20:31 -0400 (EDT) From: David Korn Message-Id: <199707162120.RAA13634@raptor.research.att.com> X-Mailer: mailx (AT&T/BSD) 9.6 07/17/97 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Software Administration Survey Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk If you are a system administrator, and have experience with both UNIX systems and Windows systems I need your help. I am giving a keynote at the USENIX Large Scale System Administration of Windows NT Workshop in August and need some input from administrators. I have prepared a survey which contanis questions about administration of UNIX verses Windows NT, and I would appreciate it if you could take a few moments to fill it out. The survey can be found at: http://www.research.att.com/~dgk/survey Thanks for your cooperation. If I get a significant number of respondants, I will present the results at this conference. David Korn research!dgk dgk@research.att.com From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 16 17:31:25 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA05454 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from macsch.com (draco.macsch.com [192.73.8.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA05427 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [161.34.1.42] by macsch.com (5.61/MSC-960531) id AA06816; Wed, 16 Jul 97 17:27:49 -0700 Received: from canismajor.is.macsch.com by bootes.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSCbootes.950222) id AA28382; Wed, 16 Jul 97 17:28:33 PDT Received: by canismajor.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSC.TW.SunOS.1.02) id AA27548; Wed, 16 Jul 97 17:27:55 PDT From: "Todd Williams" Message-Id: <9707161727.ZM27546@canismajor.is.macsch.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:27:54 -0700 In-Reply-To: "R. Wyatt" "a question regarding resumes" (Jul 16, 14:29) References: X-Face: "FF3Li6k/|j$-t~Ut~7Tcrqj{YOlB#Kqid0f^}/Hq>yDnjmBRW5bJ\@EwsJ(jeU]B@?t6u'w:Z"C{8$}6kT+!sX[m.HgO{xR7q3>G-_*XwN_twn-d4&S!^or?@79qDeoMX_CS)_/lGAq9_P{9SFa5"!uAO(!,!$:{bQ^4|OAb-q{Pb'tkE^oRm_Wuecl0m4!_USKsHC/#$b_L-*$^T-Vy+_2io@[b?|Ls!_KSFXy!3bbJNxuJqm8$tQ&)090BBF-tx; ^{)[*W,Q\>vEva?wi0FpG/]oa^*& X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95) To: "R. Wyatt" , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Jul 16, 14:29, R. Wyatt wrote: > I am currently in the process of looking for a job and I have one of > those infernal skills matrices on my resume, but my question is how far > do you go with the flavors of unix? As a hiring manager with several current open positions, I'll provide my opinions after recently reviewing many resumes: Some companies use automatic keyword scanning systems, so listing a stream of buzzwords might be beneficial. But be aware that many hiring managers have low tolerances for resumes which are little more than streams of buzzwords. The quality of the information isn't very high-- if you list TCP/IP, does that mean that you write network code? or just know what the letters "T C P" stand for? Some companies have their semi-literate H.R. departments scanning resumes, so they may ignore a resume that says "many flavors of UNIX" because they were specifically looking for the keyword "AIX". Again, quality of information is important-- If you list "IRIX", does that mean you had ONE SGI machine? or a network of several hundred? My favorite resume style integrates the buzzwords into sentences that indicate the scope of the responsibilities: "With four others, managed a complex network of UNIX workstations (200 Sun Solaris 2, 100 SGI IRIX, 50 IBM RS/6000 AIX) for a software development group. Summary sentences at the beginning are also good for those of us with short attention spans, but don't make them too pompous. "5 years of system administration experience on BSD-based (SunOS 4.X, Sequent Dynix 3) and AT&T-based (HP-UX 9, SCO) versions of UNIX." And now the shameless plug: I've got 3 open positions in L.A. right now. 1 for a SAGE level III or IV admin to handle AIX machines (and lots of other fun stuff); 1 for a SAGE level I (or level I wannabe) to be the first line of support for incoming helpdesk calls, and 1 for a technical webmaster to write PERL cgi scripts and integrate exists apps and the web and manage web sites and stuff. You can call or email me if you'd like more info. Todd Williams Manager, UNIX and Comm. Systems todd@macsch.com (213)259-4973 MacNeal-Schwendler Corp. ("MSC"), 815 Colorado Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90041 geek n. : a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usu. includes biting the head off a live chicken or snake -Webster's New Collegiate From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 17 08:22:47 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA18137 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsi.lsil.com (lsi.lsil.com [147.145.40.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA18128 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mhost.lsil.com (mhost.lsil.com [147.145.69.84]) by lsi.lsil.com with SMTP id IAA04022 (8.6.12/IDA-1.6 for ); Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:01:58 -0700 Received: from useng27 by mhost.lsil.com id AA08818 (4.1/SMI-4.1 for sage-members@usenix.ORG); Thu, 17 Jul 97 08:01:20 PDT Received: by useng27 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA01463; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:58:18 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:58:18 -0700 From: macarnor@lsil.com (Norman Macaraeg) Message-Id: <199707171458.HAA01463@useng27> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: weD4VLHLINTvrVhT5nRqpA== Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>On Jul 16, 14:29, R. "Todd Williams" wrote: >>The quality of the information isn't very high-- if you list >>TCP/IP, does that mean that you write network code? or just know what the >>letters "T C P" stand for? Yes, I whole heartedly agree with the above. If you're going to put the buzzwords down, make sure you're able to answer any questions relating to them. For example, "Automounter." Did you set-up the maps? Do you maintain them? What's the difference between in-direct and direct? What are the advantages to using? etc. Or my favorite: NIS and NFS. What did you do with them? Did you just use it or did you actually set it up? etc. -Norm _______________________________________________________________________ Norman J. Macaraeg Tel: (408) 954-4836 _____ LSI Logic Corp. Pag: (408) 485-8777 LSI|LOGIC| North American Engineering Fax: (408) 433-7695 | | 1551 Mc Carthy Blvd. M/S C-410 E-mail : macarnor@lsil.com |_____| Milpitas, CA 95035 _______________________________________________________________________ From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 17 11:07:33 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28138 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maildeliver0.tiac.net ([199.0.65.19]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28129 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lorien.ajs.com (ajs@[207.60.239.49]) by maildeliver0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16789; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:03:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ajs@localhost) by lorien.ajs.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA30778; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:01:37 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:01:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Sherman X-Sender: ajs@lorien To: Todd Williams cc: "R. Wyatt" , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-Reply-To: <9707161727.ZM27546@canismajor.is.macsch.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Todd Williams wrote: > On Jul 16, 14:29, R. Wyatt wrote: > > I am currently in the process of looking for a job and I have one of > > those infernal skills matrices on my resume, but my question is how far > > do you go with the flavors of unix? > > Some companies have their semi-literate H.R. departments scanning resumes, > so they may ignore a resume that says "many flavors of UNIX" because they > were specifically looking for the keyword "AIX". > > My favorite resume style integrates the buzzwords into sentences that > indicate the scope of the responsibilities: You can have a look at what I consider "workable" at http://kr.com/~ajs/resume.html I think that the above is basically correct, and has serviced me well, but the tactic that I use to achive that is to have a "Buzzwords" section (that I waffle about actually calling that) broken down into degrees of understanding. Then, I have an outline style work history that uses these terms in more coherent sentences. I find that this gets me past the buzzword monkeys, and still gives the technical managers enough dirt to decide if I'm worthy of an interview. OTOH, I usually don't think much of a place that would find me via their HR department. The companies that I have enough respect to work for seek out their technical staff in more creative ways. -AJS From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 17 12:26:24 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA02835 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:26:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom4.netcom.com (pomeranz@netcom4.netcom.com [192.100.81.107]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA02826 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pomeranz@localhost) by netcom4.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id MAA16283; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:17:44 -0700 Message-Id: <199707171917.MAA16283@netcom4.netcom.com> From: pomeranz@netcom.com (Hal Pomeranz) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:17:43 PDT In-Reply-To: "Todd Williams" "Re: a question regarding resumes" (Jul 16, 5:27pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: "Todd Williams" , "R. Wyatt" , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I like Todd's suggestion of descriptive sentences containing lists of buzzwords. One format that I've used successfully for several years is to list buzzwords as bullet items at the top of the resume, followed by several short descriptions of projects I've worked on which demonstrate how I've used the buzzwords. For example: o Implement and deploy mechanism for distributing DNS and other network information to 300 heterogenous UNIX machines o Manage transition of 400 node LAN from RIP to OSPF routing Now when I say I know Perl and BIND on a lot of Unix flavors, the reader will now how and at what level I have experience with these. When I list RIP and OSPF under routing protocols I'm familiar with, there is some evidence that I understand the trade-offs and difficulties of transition. SAGE has already published the job descriptions booklet and we're working on a book on how to interview and hire System Administrators. I'm thinking that the SAGE membership might be well served by publishing a book from the other perspective-- how to write resumes, look for jobs, interview, etc. for System Administrators. SAGE Board? Ellie? Are you listening? --Hal From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 17 18:30:16 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA24307 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jackalope.lcc.whecn.edu (chardy@jackalope.lcc.whecn.edu [137.87.2.5]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA24298 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chardy@localhost) by jackalope.lcc.whecn.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id TAA30138; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:42:32 -0600 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:42:32 -0600 From: Chris Hardy Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes To: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <199707171917.MAA16283@netcom4.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Hal Pomeranz wrote: > SAGE has already published the job descriptions booklet and we're > working on a book on how to interview and hire System Administrators. > I'm thinking that the SAGE membership might be well served by > publishing a book from the other perspective-- how to write resumes, > look for jobs, interview, etc. for System Administrators. SAGE Board? > Ellie? Are you listening? I think that this would be a very good idea. I'm finding that since I don't have the networking here. That it is pretty hard to find a job, I didn't have alot of competition in Wyoming. So now that I've moved to a bigger city, I'm not quite sure how to format my resume, and how to wow em. I'm also finding it hard to get a Jr. Sys Admin job here. I love System Administration, and Internet/Intranet technology. I think a book like that can help the class of SA's that are starting, the "next wave". Well I'm babling now, but thanks to all for the advice that you have sent me. Thanks, Chris > > --Hal > ==========================================================================| |Christofer Hardy | "Do or do not | | System Administrator | there is no try" | | Jackalope & Newsalope | -Yoda | | (Animals Mother Nature never|========================================== | intended,or thought of) |chardy@newsalope.lcc.whecn.edu | +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Look at my hompage on http://www.lcc.whecn.edu/home/chardy From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 17 22:17:07 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA06115 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA06052 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id LAA01835; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:16:28 +0600 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:16:27 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: Chris Hardy cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > I think that this would be a very good idea. I'm finding that since I > don't have the networking here. That it is pretty hard to find a job, > I didn't have alot of competition in Wyoming. So now that I've moved to > a bigger city, I'm not quite sure how to format my resume, and how to wow > em. yes, the same is here, so such book would be just great, Besides, the Electronic Version of it on some web page would be just great, as i live pretty far from States and it is rather hard to get any of hard-printed books - Fyodor From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 17 22:47:27 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA07595 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA07586 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id LAA02683; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:47:35 +0600 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:47:34 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: Hal Pomeranz cc: Todd Williams , "R. Wyatt" , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-Reply-To: <199707171917.MAA16283@netcom4.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > SAGE has already published the job descriptions booklet and we're > working on a book on how to interview and hire System Administrators. > I'm thinking that the SAGE membership might be well served by > publishing a book from the other perspective-- how to write resumes, > look for jobs, interview, etc. for System Administrators. SAGE Board? > Ellie? Are you listening? wondering, where can i get access to all that stuff then? - Fyodor From sage-members-owner Fri Jul 18 05:47:22 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA27249 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phibes.dartmouth.edu (phibes.dartmouth.edu [129.170.18.45]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA27240 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phibes.dartmouth.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phibes.dartmouth.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA14584; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:41:57 -0400 Message-Id: <199707181241.IAA14584@phibes.dartmouth.edu> To: Fyodor Yarochkin cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-reply-to: (Your message of Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:47:34 EDT.) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:41:56 -0500 From: Pat Wilson Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > > SAGE has already published the job descriptions booklet and we're > > working on a book on how to interview and hire System Administrators. > > I'm thinking that the SAGE membership might be well served by > > publishing a book from the other perspective-- how to write resumes, > > look for jobs, interview, etc. for System Administrators. SAGE Board? > > Ellie? Are you listening? > wondering, where can i get access to all that stuff then? > > - Fyodor SAGE booklets are mailed out to current members as they're published. Several new booklets are in the pipeline to be released later in the year, so make sure your SAGE membership remains current! Parts of certain booklets are available online at http://www.usenix.org/sage/publications/short_topics.html Ordering information is there, too. We are always looking for ideas for new booklets - we'll consider the job-hunting/resume writing suggestion. Pat Wilson SAGE BoD publications liason paw@usenix.org || paw@dartmouth.edu From sage-members-owner Sun Jul 20 15:52:24 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA14387 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kiowa.wildstar.net (falcon@kiowa.wildstar.net [198.203.196.143]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA14378 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (falcon@localhost) by kiowa.wildstar.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA25592 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 17:48:25 -0500 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 17:48:25 -0500 (CDT) From: "R. Wyatt" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Thanks Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This is a letter to thank everybody for all the input that has been given to me. I look forward to being a sage-members for many years to come Randy Wyatt From sage-members-owner Mon Jul 21 06:14:39 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA29088 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sirocco.CC.McGill.CA (sirocco.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.27.12]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA29079 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amaretto.cc.mcgill.ca (amaretto.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.35.11]) by sirocco.CC.McGill.CA (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id JAA12954; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:17:12 -0400 X-SMTP-Posting-Origin: amaretto.cc.mcgill.ca (amaretto.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.35.11]) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:10:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Ron Hall To: Norman Macaraeg cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-Reply-To: <199707171458.HAA01463@useng27> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Norman Macaraeg wrote: > > Or my favorite: NIS and NFS. What did you do with them? Did you just use > it or did you actually set it up? etc. On a similar note the following questions never fail to produce humourous results What is a subnet? How would you use one? What are the major differences between a switch and a router. A bridge and a router? What is the difference between the netmask and the broadcast address. Ron Hall Unix System Analyst +1 514 398 3718 DISCLAIMER: I said it. I must've meant it. There is nobody else to blame. DEFINITION: Clown:n: A man who acts too natural. "Redundancy is the millstone of society.Redundancy is the millstone of society." From sage-members-owner Mon Jul 21 14:27:06 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05574 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from perutz.salk.edu (perutz.salk.edu [198.202.66.85]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05537 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by perutz.salk.edu (8.8.5/8.8.0) with SMTP id OAA27559 for sage-members@usenix.org; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:23:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Harrington Message-Id: <199707212123.OAA27559@perutz.salk.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: perutz.salk.edu: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: SAGE-MEMBERS: pick a salary for this job Date: Mon, 21 Jul 97 14:23:08 -0700 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk sage-members, I'm curious about what kind of salary should be expected in San Francisco for the following responsibilities. Any comments? --Matt Harrington 40 SGIs installing various software packages VMS Cluster (5 nodes) on Alphas -- soon to be under DEC UNIX PPP server w/ISDN ~100 users Xinet (CAP) for printing to UNIX printers from Macs 100baseT switches also with FDDI a few VAXstations assorted Macs & PCs ~160 GB to back up with DLT future projects: get a file server going (SGI Origin or Auspex) Get NIS going make a better backup scheme think about a queuing system add a few more SGIs From sage-members-owner Mon Jul 21 18:29:27 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA19566 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maildeliver0.tiac.net (maildeliver0.tiac.net [199.0.65.19]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA19556 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lorien.ajs.com (ajs@[207.60.239.49]) by maildeliver0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12189; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:25:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ajs@localhost) by lorien.ajs.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA12911; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:25:21 -0400 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:25:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Sherman X-Sender: ajs@lorien To: Matt Harrington cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: SAGE-MEMBERS: pick a salary for this job In-Reply-To: <199707212123.OAA27559@perutz.salk.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Matt Harrington wrote: > I'm curious about what kind of salary should be expected in San > Francisco for the following responsibilities. Any comments? There are probably stock references out there, but keep in mind that work type/load is only one factor. There's also: o What kind of users will I (he/she/it/they) have to deal with? o What sort of work environment is it (can I come in in T-shirt and cut-offs, or will I have to start dry-cleaning a suit)? o What portion of the work could (and would be allowed to) be done from home (i.e. telecommuting)? o Would there be any junior staff to leverage so I could try to get those long-term projects done (this is what drives most interrupt-driven sysadmins to drink; trying to maintain high- quality firefighting, while a manager breaths down your neck about some nebulous project deadline)? o etc. These are far more important factors to me, in determining how much I would expect for a given job than how many boxes I will be supporting. -AJS From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 22 08:58:18 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA26133 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate2.boeing.com (mailgate2.boeing.com [199.238.248.100]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA26124 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from splinter.boeing.com by mailgate2.boeing.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA02467; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:53:45 -0700 Received: from bcstec.ca.boeing.com by splinter.boeing.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA102706528; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:48:48 -0700 Received: by bcstec.ca.boeing.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03860; Tue, 22 Jul 97 08:53:45 PDT From: allyn@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Mark Allyn) Message-Id: <9707221553.AA03860@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> Subject: Re: SAGE-MEMBERS: pick a salary for this job To: matt@perutz.salk.edu (Matt Harrington) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <199707212123.OAA27559@perutz.salk.edu> from "Matt Harrington" at Jul 21, 97 02:23:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Be aware that the cost of housing in San Francisco is not only expensive; it is insane. Way back in 1978, I was paying $200.00 per month for a room in the YMCA that was located in the heart of the Tenterloin in San Francisco. This was for a room without a private bath and shower. Just like a jail cell. As an engineer for the U.S. Navy, that was all I could afford. 200 of those dollars is probably close to 800 dollars today. Mark From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 22 11:04:47 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03899 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsport.com (puff.dsport.com [204.245.170.31]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA03797 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (dowling@localhost) by dsport.com (SMI-8.6/REVERSE.mail_aliases.org_dir) via SMTP id OAA16355; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:00:20 -0400 env-from (dowling@puff.dsport.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:00:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Race Dowling X-Sender: dowling@puff To: Matt Harrington cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: SAGE-MEMBERS: pick a salary for this job In-Reply-To: <199707212123.OAA27559@perutz.salk.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk With this eclectic range of skills, you're looking at 100+ if you can find him/her. On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Matt Harrington wrote: > > > sage-members, > > I'm curious about what kind of salary should be expected in San > Francisco for the following responsibilities. Any comments? > > --Matt Harrington > > > 40 SGIs > installing various software packages > VMS Cluster (5 nodes) on Alphas -- soon to be under DEC UNIX > PPP server w/ISDN > ~100 users > Xinet (CAP) for printing to UNIX printers from Macs > 100baseT switches also with FDDI > a few VAXstations > assorted Macs & PCs > ~160 GB to back up with DLT > > future projects: > get a file server going (SGI Origin or Auspex) > Get NIS going > make a better backup scheme > think about a queuing system > add a few more SGIs > > From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 23 06:35:39 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA25812 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 06:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from polya.mts.jhu.edu (root@polya.mts.jhu.edu [128.220.17.38]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA25801 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 06:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (bogstad@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by polya.mts.jhu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA10497; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707231332.JAA10497@polya.mts.jhu.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: polya.mts.jhu.edu: bogstad@localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Ron Hall cc: Norman Macaraeg , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:10:55 EDT." From: Bill Bogstad Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:32:01 -0400 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >> Or my favorite: NIS and NFS. What did you do with them? Did you just use >> it or did you actually set it up? etc. > > On a similar note the following questions never fail > to produce humourous results > > What is a subnet? How would you use one? > What are the major differences between a switch > and a router. A bridge and a router? > What is the difference between the netmask and > the broadcast address. I have 20 or 30 questions like this that I've used at interviews. Someone who can say something reasonable to over 50% of them is GOOD. I tell people this before I start. I really hate when people try to make things up though... Bill Bogstad bogstad@pobox.com From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 23 11:29:02 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA09693 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dabomb.hmco.com (dabomb.hmco.com [155.44.82.7]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA09684 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from meat.hmco.com (meat.hmco.com [155.44.82.22]) by dabomb.hmco.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA25131; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:27:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by meat.hmco.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.06 (346.6 3-18-1997)) id 852564DD.00649DB0 ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:18:59 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: HOUGHTONMIFFLIN From: "Jeff Lucas" To: bogstad@pobox.com cc: thorn@cc.mcgill.ca, macarnor@lsil.com, sage-members@usenix.org Message-ID: <852564DD.00645B15.00@meat.hmco.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:17:54 -0400 Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Bill: I'm sure we'd find your list of questions useful. Would you mind sharing them with us? Thanks, Jeff bogstad@pobox.com on 07/23/97 09:32:01 AM To: thorn@cc.mcgill.ca cc: macarnor@lsil.com, sage-members@usenix.ORG (bcc: Jeff Lucas/Corp/hmco) Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes >> Or my favorite: NIS and NFS. What did you do with them? Did you just use >> it or did you actually set it up? etc. > > On a similar note the following questions never fail > to produce humourous results > > What is a subnet? How would you use one? > What are the major differences between a switch > and a router. A bridge and a router? > What is the difference between the netmask and > the broadcast address. I have 20 or 30 questions like this that I've used at interviews. Someone who can say something reasonable to over 50% of them is GOOD. I tell people this before I start. I really hate when people try to make things up though... Bill Bogstad bogstad@pobox.com From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 02:12:31 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA19673 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 02:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eugate.sgi.com (eugate.sgi.com [193.73.159.10]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA19664 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 02:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eurohub.neu.sgi.com (eurohub.neu.sgi.com [144.253.128.2]) by eugate.sgi.com (8.8.4/970417-sgi-europehub) via SMTP id LAA12179; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:06:12 +0200 (MDT) env-from (zwicky@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com) Received: from pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com by eurohub.neu.sgi.com via ESMTP (950413.SGI.8.6.12/940406.SGI) id LAA09462; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:06:11 +0200 Received: from localhost by pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/911001.SGI) id LAA29046; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:06:05 +0200 Message-Id: <199707240906.LAA29046@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com> To: Bill Bogstad cc: Ron Hall , Norman Macaraeg , sage-members@usenix.org, zwicky@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:32:01 EDT." <199707231332.JAA10497@polya.mts.jhu.edu> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:06:04 +0200 From: zwicky Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > I have 20 or 30 questions like this that I've used at interviews. >Someone who can say something reasonable to over 50% of them is GOOD. I like asking rather loose but technical questions, like "Can you describe for me what happens when a job is printed?" (Note: The superior candidate starts this answer by asking what kind of printer and what kind of computer I want to know for, to which I say "Whatever you're most familiar with.") I've tried asking people how a computer gets from a host name to a machine address -- I used to hope for a coherent answer to this one, but that proved to be over-optimistic. Most candidates are doing well if they can produce any *one* of NIS, DNS, or the host file, as a buzzword without having a clue as to how it might function. Many of them have to have soothing hints to get that far. A significant percentage of them never do, and one provided a slightly hallucinatory description of how ARP works, and then tried to convince me that I was simply wrong and all UNIX machines broadcast queries to map host names to addresses. (Needless to say, he didn't get the job -- being *wrong* is OK. Being wrong and thinking you're right is dangerous. Being wrong, thinking you're right, and being unwilling to discuss the matter, is completely unacceptable.) I never ask detail questions, mostly because I find that once I'm being interviewed for a job, *I* become unable to answer questions like "Does NFS use TCP or UDP?" and "What does the -v option to grep do?" to name two favorite questions of acquaintances. Elizabeth Zwicky zwicky@neu.sgi.com From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 05:20:50 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA27325 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 05:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA27316 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 05:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA16867; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:11:09 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id RAA19485; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:50:12 +0600 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:50:11 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: zwicky cc: Bill Bogstad , Ron Hall , Norman Macaraeg , sage-members@usenix.org, zwicky@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-Reply-To: <199707240906.LAA29046@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > "Does NFS use TCP or UDP?" and "What does the -v option to grep do?" to > name two favorite questions of acquaintances. > hmm.. wondering if knowlege of such things as "-v option of grep" or "-bd option of sendmail" count here? You always have man to have a look, we have such questions on exams in my Uni, but i would be surprised if Interviewer would ask such ... From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 05:50:46 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA28677 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 05:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdrc.com (sdrc.com [146.122.132.195]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA28668 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 05:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cas1.sdrc.com by sdrc.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15812; Thu, 24 Jul 97 08:46:43 EDT Received: from hppop.sdrc.com by cas1.sdrc.com with ESMTP (8.8.5/16.2) id IAA10228; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:46:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by hppop.sdrc.com id IAA19752; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:46:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:46:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707241246.IAA19752@hppop.sdrc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: paul.joslin@sdrc.com (Paul R. Joslin) To: Jeff_Lucas@hmco.com Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-Reply-To: <852564DD.00645B15.00@meat.hmco.com> References: <852564DD.00645B15.00@meat.hmco.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Organization: Architecture Group, MIS Systems Engineering Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Lucas writes: Jeff> Bill: Jeff> I'm sure we'd find your list of questions useful. Would you mind Jeff> sharing them with us? 1) I hate to give up a trick, but I also hate hoarding useful info. Get the FAQs relevant to the job (comp.unix.shell, comp.sys.hp.*, the Solaris 2 FAQ, comp.sys.sgi.admin). Don't expect a candidate to know all the minutiae. (If they do, they've probably memorized the FAQ, or they so good you can't afford them!) If you don't know what FAQ's are relevant, get the SAGE job descriptions and highlight the skills you expect the perfect candidate to have. Then search for FAQ's in these areas. 2) Elizabeth's suggestion about open-ended questions is a very good one. I don't expect to hire someone who knows all the answers. I use the questions to determine how a candidate solves problems, and to determine how well they communicate. (I make liberal allowances for interview jitters!) So I might ask, "Suppose you get a call, and a user on a Sun machine says he can't telnet to zeeblebrox. He could yesterday, and you're on it, so you know it's up. Tell me a little about how you'd resolve the problem." Then you can probe his answers for technical detail. If he mentions DNS or NIS, you might ask, "How do you know whether the system is using NIS or DNS to find the address?" I don't always expect a candidate to remember "/etc/nsswitch.conf", but I would expect them to know the concept, and how to find it. If the candidate knows the concept, but not the details, I'd like to hear "I'd do a man -k resolv or man switch or man gethostbyname". 3) I almost never penalize a candidate for saying, "I don't know". I'm glad they recognize that fact, and are willing to admit it. It likely means they're trainable. I'd follow up with, "How would you find out?" or "How do you learn best?". Someone who thinks they know, but doesn't gets "Hmm, I thought it worked like ...". Then I judge their reaction. Again, I make allowances for the pressure they're under. Someone who's belligerent probably won't fit in on my team. Someone who is 'politely adamant' (e.g., "No, I'm pretty sure it works like ...") gets follow up questions. ("Why do you think so?" "How would you find out for sure?"). Someone who knows they don't know, but tries to BS, gets a gentle reminder the first time, then loses ground each other time. (Usually, it's "I'm not trying to find out what you don't know, just how you solve problems. We don't expect people to know everything. Even if they did, things change so rapidly around here they'd get out of date! We like to find people who are open to learning. How do you find you learn new technologies best?"). -- Paul R. Joslin paul.joslin@sdrc.com +1 513 576 2012 If you're a horse, and someone gets on you, and falls off, and then gets right back on you, I think you should buck him off right away. -- Jack Handey From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 07:59:44 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA04346 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from billy.acsu.buffalo.edu (gretchen@billy.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.8]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA04335 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gretchen@localhost) by billy.acsu.buffalo.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) id KAA12715; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707241456.KAA12715@billy.acsu.buffalo.edu> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes From: Gretchen Phillips Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk As you may (or may not) know, I'm currently in the process of writing the booklet for the SAGE series on hiring. Of course I'm finding this discussion very interesting and would be particularly interested in including a variety of suggestions, tips and techniques for locating, and hiring system administrators. If anyone is interested in corresponding directly with me on this or possibly submitting a case study for the booklet, please let me know. I have several different areas that I hope to be able to include so there is alot of flexibility. I can be reached at either gretchen@usenix.org or gretchen@acsu.buffalo.edu Thanks so much and keep up the great discussion. Gretchen From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 08:40:59 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA06054 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bkinis1-1.ms.com (bkinis.ms.com [204.254.196.6]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06040 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by bkinis1-1.ms.com (8.8.5/fw v1.22) id LAA23848; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:37:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from samail1.ms.com(144.14.9.149) by bkinis1-1.ms.com via smap (V1.3) id sma023599; Thu Jul 24 11:36:37 1997 Received: from lambda.morgan.com (lambda.morgan.com [144.14.15.231]) by samail1.morgan.com (8.8.5/hub v1.50) with ESMTP id LAA04373; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lambda (localhost.morgan.com [127.0.0.1]) by lambda.morgan.com (8.7.5/sendmail.cf.client v1.05) with ESMTP id LAA07534; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:36:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707241536.LAA07534@lambda.morgan.com> To: Fyodor Yarochkin cc: zwicky , Bill Bogstad , Ron Hall , Norman Macaraeg , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:50:11 +0600. Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:36:32 -0400 From: Steven Jenkins Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >> "Does NFS use TCP or UDP?" and "What does the -v option to grep do?" to >> name two favorite questions of acquaintances. >> >hmm.. wondering if knowlege of such things as "-v option of grep" or > "-bd option of sendmail" count here? You always have man to have a look, >we have such questions on exams in my Uni, but i would be surprised if >Interviewer would ask such ... I've seen (and used) such questions. However, it would probably be better to ask "What are your favorite options for grep and why?" My personal answers would be like "-n show line numbers, -i case insensitive, and -v inverse match". And then explain where and why I use these. That leaves flexibility for the candidate and allows for version differences, and it gives the interviewer a feel for how the candidate has used grep. Interviewing is still hard, though. Steven L. Jenkins From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 08:43:29 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA06140 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from igtc.igtc.com (pmm@igtc.igtc.com [206.86.144.10]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06131 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pmm@localhost) by igtc.igtc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id IAA27218; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19970724083921.15397@igtc.igtc.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:39:21 -0700 From: "Paul M. Moriarty" To: Fyodor Yarochkin Cc: zwicky , Bill Bogstad , Ron Hall , Norman Macaraeg , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Interview questions [was: Re: a question regarding resumes] References: <199707240906.LAA29046@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: ; from Fyodor Yarochkin on Thu, Jul 24, 1997 at 05:50:11PM +0600 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Fyodor Yarochkin writes: > > "Does NFS use TCP or UDP?" and "What does the -v option to grep do?" to > > name two favorite questions of acquaintances. > > > hmm.. wondering if knowlege of such things as "-v option of grep" or > "-bd option of sendmail" count here? You always have man to have a look, > we have such questions on exams in my Uni, but i would be surprised if > Interviewer would ask such ... I'm not so sure. My all-time favorite is to ask folks what the output of ps -ef |grep foo |grep -v grep |awk '{print $1}' |xargs kill -9 does on a SysV machine. The correct answer is nothing. :-) Only three people out of hundreds I've interviewed have ever caught that it's $2, not $1 that's meaningful, but that's just a trick. This question then leads me to: why would such a command line be useful? are there other ways to do this? why the grep -v grep (since it comes after the ps on the command line, why should I need it? lots of folks don't understand how the shell parses the command line) what does the -v option to grep do what does xargs do? if I use xargs in a "find (bunch of options) | xargs rm", why is this bad? I agree that just asking "what does grep -v do?", isn't very useful, but using something like it as a branch from which to explore lots of options can prove most enlightening. -> Paul <- From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 09:28:30 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA08522 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:28:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cobra.csc.calpoly.edu (abell@cobra.csc.calpoly.edu [129.65.98.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA08495 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707241628.JAA08495@usenix.ORG> Received: by cobra.csc.calpoly.edu (1.37.109.24/16.2) id AA085981490; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:24:50 -0700 From: "Alan C. Bell" Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes To: sjenkins@ms.com Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 9:24:50 PDT Cc: fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su, zwicky@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com, bogstad@pobox.com, thorn@cc.mcgill.ca, macarnor@lsil.com, sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <199707241536.LAA07534@lambda.morgan.com>; from "Steven Jenkins" at Jul 24, 97 11:36 am X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.18] Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This is all well and good, but how would these questions change for an organization that is Computer Illiterate trying to hire a person that you're talking about. What questions will they ask? Are there outside hiring firms to aide you in this process? etc. Alan Bell Cal Poly State University > > > >> "Does NFS use TCP or UDP?" and "What does the -v option to grep do?" to > >> name two favorite questions of acquaintances. > >> > >hmm.. wondering if knowlege of such things as "-v option of grep" or > > "-bd option of sendmail" count here? You always have man to have a look, > >we have such questions on exams in my Uni, but i would be surprised if > >Interviewer would ask such ... > > I've seen (and used) such questions. However, it would probably be > better to ask "What are your favorite options for grep and > why?" My personal answers would be like "-n show line numbers, > -i case insensitive, and -v inverse match". And then explain where > and why I use these. That leaves flexibility for the > candidate and allows for version differences, and it gives the > interviewer a feel for how the candidate has used grep. > > Interviewing is still hard, though. > > Steven L. Jenkins > From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 09:41:44 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA09390 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nova.botz.org (root@[209.21.31.7]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA09381 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nova.botz.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nova.botz.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA22133 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:37:04 -0700 Message-Id: <199707241637.JAA22133@nova.botz.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0delta 6/3/97 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: jurgen@botz.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:50:11 +0600." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:37:04 -0700 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Fyodor Yarochkin wrote: > > "Does NFS use TCP or UDP?" and "What does the -v option to grep do?" to > > name two favorite questions of acquaintances. > > > hmm.. wondering if knowlege of such things as "-v option of grep" or > "-bd option of sendmail" count here? You always have man to have a look, > we have such questions on exams in my Uni, but i would be surprised if > Interviewer would ask such ... Well, I was recently interviewing, and I was asked some such questions. I think they're legit questions... if someone says they've been a Unix power-user for 10 years and they don't know what 'grep -v' does, then something is wrong. Similarly, if they claim to be 'expert' at sendmail configuration and management they should certainly know the more important sendmail options off the top of their head. On the other hand if I'm asked a bunch such questions and I don't know the answers to a few of them I'm not going to panic... ;-) -- Jurgen Botz Sr. System Administrator From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 09:54:25 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA10126 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bkinis1-1.ms.com (bkinis.ms.com [204.254.196.6]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA10117 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by bkinis1-1.ms.com (8.8.5/fw v1.22) id MAA18560; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:51:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from samail1.ms.com(144.14.9.149) by bkinis1-1.ms.com via smap (V1.3) id sma018090; Thu Jul 24 12:49:42 1997 Received: from lambda.morgan.com (lambda.morgan.com [144.14.15.231]) by samail1.morgan.com (8.8.5/hub v1.50) with ESMTP id MAA11876; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:49:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lambda (localhost.morgan.com [127.0.0.1]) by lambda.morgan.com (8.7.5/sendmail.cf.client v1.05) with ESMTP id MAA07682; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:49:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707241649.MAA07682@lambda.morgan.com> To: "Alan C. Bell" cc: sjenkins@ms.com, fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su, zwicky@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com, bogstad@pobox.com, thorn@cc.mcgill.ca, macarnor@lsil.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:24:50 -0700. <199707241629.MAA21528@exinis1-1.ms.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:49:38 -0400 From: Steven Jenkins Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >This is all well and good, but how would these questions change for an >organization that is Computer Illiterate trying to hire a person that you're >talking about. What questions will they ask? Are there outside hiring >firms to aide you in this process? etc. I would recommend a computer illiterate firm not try to do their hiring on their own. However, I have yet to deal with a headhunter firm that consistently provides good, well-screened candidates. Each firm seems to have its own set of problems (eg, gets good techies, but they all have itchy feet, or poor social skills, or the firm doesn't screen technically at all, etc). I would recommend negotiating with a headhunter outfit that would take their payment in part, say 30% upon hire, 70% after 6 months or so. I know, no big firm would be willing to do that -- you have to find an outfit that is still hungry for business. You could try outsourcing, but again, I've not seen that work very well except in certain cases (usually where very senior technical people work for the organization, and the outsourcing is used more to finish filling headcount rather than outsource complete support units). > >Alan Bell >Cal Poly State University >> >> >> >> "Does NFS use TCP or UDP?" and "What does the -v option to grep do?" to >> >> name two favorite questions of acquaintances. >> >> >> >hmm.. wondering if knowlege of such things as "-v option of grep" or >> > "-bd option of sendmail" count here? You always have man to have a look, >> >we have such questions on exams in my Uni, but i would be surprised if >> >Interviewer would ask such ... >> >> I've seen (and used) such questions. However, it would probably be >> better to ask "What are your favorite options for grep and >> why?" My personal answers would be like "-n show line numbers, >> -i case insensitive, and -v inverse match". And then explain where >> and why I use these. That leaves flexibility for the >> candidate and allows for version differences, and it gives the >> interviewer a feel for how the candidate has used grep. >> >> Interviewing is still hard, though. >> >> Steven L. Jenkins >> > Steven L. Jenkins From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 10:00:14 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA10959 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comanche.wildstar.net (falcon@comanche.wildstar.net [198.203.196.144]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA10950 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (falcon@localhost) by comanche.wildstar.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA24577; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:41:43 -0500 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:41:43 -0500 (CDT) From: "R. Wyatt" To: zwicky cc: Bill Bogstad , Ron Hall , Norman Macaraeg , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-Reply-To: <199707240906.LAA29046@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The only problem is that sometimes an applicant rehearses. I would expect to be asked questions relating to nfs/dns, but a recruiter threw me off the other day, she asked if I knew vi. Sometimes a more reliable indicator would be to present the candidate with a situation whether it be artificial or not, and watch what the candidate does. I recently left a job where the systems administrator could not write a simple bash script. My question is should I concentrate on the interviews more ? By no means do I take them lightly, but I still don't have a lot of success. The one thing I don't do is say I have skills when I don't, and I can't help the feeling this has cost me some jobs. Randy From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 10:39:57 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA12740 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA12730 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.13]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id KAA10255; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:35:59 -0700 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com by Eng.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id KAA09779; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:35:55 -0700 Received: from evolved.eng.sun.com by jurassic.eng.sun.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA10909; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:35:54 -0700 Received: by evolved.eng.sun.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA25639; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:35:14 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:35:14 -0700 From: Sol.Lederman@eng.sun.com (Sol Lederman) Message-Id: <199707241735.KAA25639@evolved.eng.sun.com> To: zwicky@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com, falcon@comanche.wildstar.net Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes Cc: bogstad@pobox.com, thorn@cc.mcgill.ca, macarnor@lsil.com, sage-members@usenix.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Randy and others, Presenting a candidate with a situation sounds like the way to go in my opinion. I'm very good at figuring things out and at getting the sysadmin parts of my job done but I'm also very aware that questions that poke at my memory without a context to process them in are very irritating to me and don't reveal that I can do much more than I can recall from memory. Also, I may not have the deepest understanding of how, say, NIS works but I've been very successful at setting up yp masters, slaves and clients and at troubleshooting name service problems. I believe that the people who know the internals may not be the best at resolving problems and vice versa. Also, much of my troubleshooting success comes from pattern matching. If something breaks in my environment I can usually find a like piece somewhere else in my lab or organization that currently works fine and compare the two scenarios until I find differences. Then I can pinpoint the problem. This style of troubleshooting is natural for me but wouldn't lend itself to a good job interview unless the hiring manager brought me into a lab and said something like "This lab has three yp slaves. One of the three is not providing correct information to yp clients. Go figure it out." There can be a tremendous difference between performance and knowledge. The way I look at myself and some other good troubleshooters is that my recall memory is not that great so I've gotten VERY good at using intuition, pattern matching, man pages, working examples, and good troubleshooting techniques to allow me to think quickly on my feet and to get the job done. Plus, I'm very focused and organized so I compensate for my memory by recording what's important. This has the nice side effect that it has earned me great respect in my organization for taking users' concerns seriously, for handling them quickly, effectively, and professionally and for communicating very clearly what the problem and resolution is. So, a weakness can become a strength. Yet another example where an interview might never get me a job - if the interviewer were to ask me to, say, tell him or her the syntax of an "if" clause in the bourne shell I'd have to try to remember where the parentheses go, and where the semi-colon goes and where to put the "then" and then I'd have to remember "fi" at the end of the whole thing. Am I a lousy bourne shell programmer? No, the syntax just doesn't always stick in my mind. But, whenever I need to remember a structure in shell programming I've forgotten I just do something like "grep if /etc/rc*/* | more" and use one of the working bourne shell examples that lives in any SystemV machine and go from there. With this general approach I've taught myself C, html programming, expect, even enough perl, cgi and web forms to write very useful web-based programs that are very much appreciated in my organization. Am I an expert in any of these? No. Can I get the job done reasonably quickly? Most definitely. One other thing to consider with candidates for sysadmin jobs. Look at the whole person. I've seen lots of sys admins who VERY bright, who could fix problems tons faster than I could but they were either VERY disorganized, or very unprofessional or not pleasant to work with or who were not very committed to getting the job done well. I'm not convinced that knowledge is the best criteria for hiring technical people. That's my 20 cents. Sol > From sage-members-owner@usenix.ORG Thu Jul 24 10:08:25 1997 > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:41:43 -0500 (CDT) > From: "R. Wyatt" > To: zwicky > cc: Bill Bogstad , Ron Hall , > Norman Macaraeg , sage-members@usenix.org > Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > The only problem is that sometimes an applicant rehearses. I would > expect to be asked questions relating to nfs/dns, but a recruiter threw me > off the other day, she asked if I knew vi. > Sometimes a more reliable indicator would be to present the candidate > with a situation whether it be artificial or not, and watch what the > candidate does. I recently left a job where the systems administrator > could not write a simple bash script. My question is should I concentrate > on the interviews more ? By no means do I take them lightly, but I still > don't have a lot of success. > The one thing I don't do is say I have skills when I don't, and I can't > help the feeling this has cost me some jobs. > > Randy > > > > From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 11:04:46 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA13937 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA13927 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from misty.parc.xerox.com ([13.1.100.6]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <52650(4)>; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:00:49 PDT Received: from localhost by misty.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <34991>; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:00:29 PDT Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:00:22 PDT From: Mark Verber X-Sender: verber@misty To: "Alan C. Bell" cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-Reply-To: <199707241628.JAA08495@usenix.ORG> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > This is all well and good, but how would these questions change for an > organization that is Computer Illiterate trying to hire a person that you're > talking about. What questions will they ask? Are there outside hiring > firms to aide you in this process? etc. When I am interviewing someone for a sysadmin job, I evaluate the person in three broad categories. 1. Personality and human skills. Most sysadmins spend a lot of time interacting with other people. If the sysadm can't get along with the community then there will be problems. So I look to see how well the interviewer "clicks" with the people they are talking with. I also look for an understanding of professionalism. Do they understand the importance of keeping commitments? Do they understand the need for honesty? Do they understand basic principles of customer service? Do they know what they know, and not know? I gather this data by talking with a candidate about whatever experiences they have had working (be it as a sysadm or something else). I will steer the conversion into an area that I know they are weak and see if they will concede ignorance. [Sysadms who don't recognize the limits to their understanding are very dangerous.] I will explore some of there human skills by stating "Everyone place seems to have few 'difficult people'." Then I will tell a short story about one of my 'difficult people' to put the interviewee at ease and then ask the interviewee to tell me a story about one of their difficult people and how they resolved the situation. I think anyone who has reasonable relational skills is able to evaluate a candidate in this area. 2. Problem Solving A lot of sysadm work involves figuring something out from a number of clues. I like to give the interviewee some basic facts, and then ask what they think is an appropriate resolution is. Ideally, the problem is something that I can also use to evaluate the person's technical expertise, but it could be anything. Issues from daily life, of some domain of knowledge you share with the interviewee: cars, photography, woodworking, msuic, whatever. As Elizabeth mentioned, the best sign is when someone starts by asking questions. 3. Technical Knowledge. It is impossible for someone who is computer illiterate to assess whether someone has decent technical knowledge. It is too easy for someone to sound as if they know what they are talking about. Since I have some technical expertise, I do ask questions in their realm. I will mostly look to see if people understand basic concepts like client/server. I will ask a few detailed question to gauge how honest the resume is (if they say significant experience, I expect they will know some details), but I am doing this to gauge their honesty. Quite frankly, this is the least important area of interviewing for me. If a person has good problem solving skills and can learn quickly, they can pick up wherever specific knowledge they need from books, man pages, the web, classes, and conferences. Beside, any "knowledge" they have today will be obsolete in a few years anyway. I am going through my tenth platform transition. [Note: I am counting all of UNIX (V6-Solaris) as one platform.] In my book, understanding the system is more important than knowing some specific facts. --Mark From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 11:30:29 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA15344 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maildeliver0.tiac.net (maildeliver0.tiac.net [199.0.65.19]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA15335 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lorien.ajs.com (ajs@[207.60.239.49]) by maildeliver0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01444; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:26:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ajs@localhost) by lorien.ajs.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA25618; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:26:32 -0400 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:26:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Sherman X-Sender: ajs@lorien To: Steven Jenkins cc: Fyodor Yarochkin , zwicky , Bill Bogstad , Ron Hall , Norman Macaraeg , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-Reply-To: <199707241536.LAA07534@lambda.morgan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I've always tried, when making up questionaires, to include lots of questions that require discussion. For instance, I might ask "what does grep do, and why is it useful". But, I would avoid a command-line argument question. More generally I ask things like "What is TCP and how does it relate to UDP". This question really brings out a lot about the questionee because it can be answered from a number of points of view. A programmer and a sysadmin will have very different answers as will a UNIX admin vs a DOS admin vs a networking hardware admin. -AJS From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 13:28:50 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA21794 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA21785 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sideshow.redhat.com by relay2.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: sideshow.redhat.com [199.183.24.15]) id QQczpx20301; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sideshow.redhat.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sideshow.redhat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00953; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:17:58 -0400 Message-Id: <199707242017.QAA00953@sideshow.redhat.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0epsilon 1/27/96 BA To: "Paul M. Moriarty" cc: Fyodor Yarochkin , zwicky , Bill Bogstad , Ron Hall , Norman Macaraeg , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions [was: Re: a question regarding resumes] In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:39:21 PDT." <19970724083921.15397@igtc.igtc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:17:58 -0400 From: Bryan Andregg Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk My favorite litmus test is simple. When the interviewee walks in and sits down he will notice that there is a stack of 'Wired' mags on my desk. The very first question that I ask is: Do you read Wired? If the answer is yes, then the second question is: What do you think of it? If the answer here is positive ('They have great opinions.' or 'I love their coverage of technology.') I hand them one of the copies on my desk and say "We'll call you." in that non-commital tone. I have found that learning about people (generally in a nicer manner) helps me just as much as their listing of previous jobs or projects. -- Bryan C. Andregg * * Red Hat Software "Sure, to you she's just a set of intercorrelated coordinates. What fun is that?" -- 'Experiment Zero', Man or Astroman? "Donnie were much more 'user-friendly'. May be you selective about friends:-)" -- Levente Farkas From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 13:33:03 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA21954 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost2.cac.washington.edu (mailhost2.cac.washington.edu [140.142.33.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA21945 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garm (garm.mbt.washington.edu [128.95.231.73]) by mailhost2.cac.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.07) with SMTP id NAA02597; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:29:36 -0700 Message-ID: <33D7BB79.12E0@u.washington.edu> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:30:49 -0700 From: Leeland Artra Reply-To: leeland@u.washington.edu Organization: CompBio MBT UW X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Alan C. Bell" CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes References: <199707241628.JAA08495@usenix.ORG> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3C5788672F3" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3C5788672F3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, Alan C. Bell wrote: > This is all well and good, but how would these questions change for an > organization that is Computer Illiterate trying to hire a person that you're > talking about. What questions will they ask? Are there outside hiring > firms to aide you in this process? etc. There is another option: you can always locate an individual who is capable of conducting an interview for you. Then you pay that person a consulting fee for the help plus a lunch/diner during the interview. (Technical interviews for senior positions will take at least 4 hours.) I am currently interviewing candidates for a company in this manor. I have seen this approach used successfully twice now. Also, I have been inteviewed in this manor for another firm some 4 years ago. It works so long as you have someone you can feel trust in their abilities. Cheers, Leeland -- //Leeland Artra University of Washington //Senior Systems Administrator Box 357730 Rm. K343 //Dept of Molecular Biotechnology Seattle, Washington 98195-7730 //mailto:leeland@u.washington.edu phone:206.616.7233 fax:206.685.7301 --------------3C5788672F3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="attachment" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="attachment" The following is a PGP digitally signed copy of this message. -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: 2.6.2 owF1VE2IHFUQ3hBCiBhYiSjipQSjJuz2/O3sZFZJdn52w7gGQnZ1NyyKb7prpl/2 zXud97O97VnwB6Iesqh4F0WCQjyE5BBPOQZyCjmIgmdBkSioAet1TyYRsRm6mar3 ffXVV9X93tTu3n1TtdvXqk9E72xc3bz48549srH37wNnl27xfumL9f2vXzxz45uf bj73VOPw3J3Ft1d+/GTj6C4rHV27fM9c+rj74S/nvr7z2Obugd8+vTB9PYH5b698 de7X3x+/8ecr77+5qO692D0yuHp9o/XR3fJg+Mfljb/OTz9zpXx35vZno+VHf+h9 +cG7Z6+lh757+enOoWenn/z+5huHmxc+569d2rfZ3y+sDuyOnaLrpEa0XA7NzMGD j9CvJZiETgBtFAJSrSwuUPQ4rMXcAP2YD/sckxEMlYpmoO8sxCqFVDkRgY3RIJx3 aCxX0kAYMzlEGChNkJxK6SGT/C3m83ScWc/bUaPEWdTQE4LTk1kEqzNSBlZBzDUC gwS1uY/JlHteY05omdjyB1lfORsArPv8AwUpJ7kkKwNmtk4AtIiL/tKdjhseoacn fM414HpkfEnmE1QEuC9IChOtQjTmBKANg8KstZzFuyKVZwSV+JILOS4kI5lIWWZA qND3QwEuI77NI8fIxVgRlFhClrC+IDUDCJWMXGjzZvxhMmKbY5q7R5wBjQFlzp6w rPBh7AnzRNStEzl6gIXlpApiFAkkwpFMEE6GcSniksRGTuf20pFJJd/YC2sYxpKH pHESNzmbQcnpkSjDH7aWbVFvFgQyY2GOdsFpExwpLOoBG0HotEZpRfaA0FcmhyIe kTMFO6P2RwmT2cTyEfmqaaA9IorZNpIAHKdYQvNgYQzOYATGhX42Ayeohk15iCBV SsiWMGoGepCj+4QmJq/BSyDcvwqNd7SYpN8DMGqE1FCGTFPFoRqPvWdp1/WWoTyN 1s/K5DMpJBJGSZysAE2CLNKOrMmrIddEwfqc1pyjGVN2YqQ5+ndwNVSWEkV4dhbo XiqNg7CaovTT/s/1quTbRMBt5tdonZmYDLZKFuhibKuZsUjL3YpGXHJj6R2jqL/a agdq9UajVoYzowBWanO1HNjFxHq+U0pg6ATT0Ob0RaDtUEINM4BVZNYKnHmoIjSP VZr1WU+Wc4wYF1YtmEL5ogvSydEAIweQxGTXQrU8H8xX5oNGtVaDAdspAsfqAfFU cqLTJ09D4vqwhdlCHqiUq3Oldqvebs4tdaHSbNZL5UapWob7bp0KJoa99H/1j+dU K/RxGFAQdULvhC34GzWoNaBZh0obum1o1aC5DJUyQLcC7SWo0r0Dy21Y6kC5AvPe sn8A =zOZL -----END PGP MESSAGE----- --------------3C5788672F3-- From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 14:06:21 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA23743 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peak.org (root@PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA23731 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (sechrest@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peak.org (8.8.5/8.6.7) with ESMTP id OAA18157 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707242103.OAA18157@peak.org> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:26:30 EDT. Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:03:42 -0700 From: (John Sechrest) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -------- I am finding this interview questions discussion very interesting. This term (summer), I am teaching a Unix System Administration Class at Oregon State University. So I see the questions from the other side. If I succeed in teaching my class right, then my class should be able to fly thru the interview with a good understanding of the basics. What things would you be looking for from a student who had gone thru a unix system admin class? ----- John Sechrest . Helping people use PEAK - . computers and the Internet Public Electronic . more effectively Access to Knowledge,Inc . 850 SW 15th Street . Internet: sechrest@peak.org Corvallis Oregon 97331 . (541) 754-7325 . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 15:19:38 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA27140 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bkinis1-1.ms.com (bkinis.ms.com [204.254.196.6]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA27131 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by bkinis1-1.ms.com (8.8.5/fw v1.22) id SAA28344; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:16:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from samail1.ms.com(144.14.9.149) by bkinis1-1.ms.com via smap (V1.3) id sma028289; Thu Jul 24 18:15:49 1997 Received: from lambda.morgan.com (lambda.morgan.com [144.14.15.231]) by samail1.morgan.com (8.8.5/hub v1.50) with ESMTP id SAA11729; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:15:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lambda (localhost.morgan.com [127.0.0.1]) by lambda.morgan.com (8.7.5/sendmail.cf.client v1.05) with ESMTP id SAA08429; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:15:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707242215.SAA08429@lambda.morgan.com> To: Mark Verber cc: "Alan C. Bell" , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:00:22 -0700. Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:15:46 -0400 From: Steven Jenkins Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >3. Technical Knowledge. > >It is impossible for someone who is computer illiterate to assess >whether someone has decent technical knowledge. It is too easy for >someone to sound as if they know what they are talking about. Since I >have some technical expertise, I do ask questions in their realm. I >will mostly look to see if people understand basic concepts like >client/server. I will ask a few detailed question to gauge how honest >the resume is (if they say significant experience, I expect they will >know some details), but I am doing this to gauge their honesty. Quite >frankly, this is the least important area of interviewing for me. If >a person has good problem solving skills and can learn quickly, they >can pick up wherever specific knowledge they need from books, man >pages, the web, classes, and conferences. Beside, any "knowledge" >they have today will be obsolete in a few years anyway. I am going >through my tenth platform transition. [Note: I am counting all of >UNIX (V6-Solaris) as one platform.] In my book, understanding the >system is more important than knowing some specific facts. That is a fairly enlightened perspective, but it's been my experience (albeit limited) that most SAs don't really stick around long enough to learn anything useful. Or once they have really learned something, they leave. If the average time on a job is on the order of 2-3 years, then most places really need their SAs to already have knowledge (obviously there are exceptions, but it's clearly unreasonable for a computer illiterate company to hire someone who does not have specific knowledge). Steven L. Jenkins (I speak for noone but myself, not any current or previous employer). From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 15:36:07 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA27896 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proxy4.ba.best.com (root@proxy4.ba.best.com [206.184.139.15]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA27869 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (kmayer@shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by proxy4.ba.best.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA02937; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:30:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken Mayer X-Sender: kmayer@shell7.ba.best.com To: Mark Verber cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Mark Verber wrote: > 2. Problem Solving > > A lot of sysadm work involves figuring something out from a number of > clues. ... > As Elizabeth mentioned, the best sign > is when someone starts by asking questions. There's an art to asking questions. I don't think it is possible to map out the terrain of soemone's knowledge in a 60 minute interview, but you can get a good feel for the high points from the questions they (the interviewee) ask. My highest evaluation is "He asked good questions." Not only what they ask for, but how. I interviewed one guy who had been on a help desk for a PC manufacturer. Instead of asking "Is the PC plugged in?" which can be inflammatory, he asked, "Can you try switching the power cable to another plug? Maybe the socket has gone bad." An unlikely event, but it accomplishes the same goal without wounding the caller's ego. It's an art. -- Ken Mayer < In dwelling, live close to the ground. Global Village Idiot > In thinking, keep to the simple. 408/354.6078 (voice) < In conflict, be fair and generous. 408/354.2958 (fax) > In governing, don't try to control. 408/488.2896 (leash/pager) < In work, do what you enjoy. *** kmayer@bitwrangler.com *** > In family life, be completely present. [\] Voulez-vous plongez avec moi? < -- Tao Te Ching From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 15:42:06 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA28192 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA28148 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from misty.parc.xerox.com ([13.1.100.6]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <53093(4)>; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:37:59 PDT Received: from localhost by misty.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <34991>; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:37:42 PDT Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:37:41 PDT From: Mark Verber X-Sender: verber@misty To: Steven Jenkins cc: "Alan C. Bell" , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-Reply-To: <199707242215.SAA08429@lambda.morgan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Steven Jenkins wrote: My experience is that 2-3 years (if the person is bright and willing to work) is plenty of time to learn and make a significant contribution to a site. As to keeping people longer than three years, that is largly a management issue. My site has a mixed record, we have a fair number of people who have been here 5+ years, but also have see a fair amount of turnover in some of our positions. I would agree that in the case of a computer illiterate company where there is a sole SA, that you need someone who has significant domain knowledge and experience. My response was really more about interviewing in general than what a computer illiterate company should do. For the completely illiterate company I would agree with the suggestions of hiring a firm with a good reputation to do your staffing, or find a consultant who can help you assess your canidates. --mark > Specific Technical Knowledge > >Quite frankly, this is the least important area of interviewing for me. > >I a person has good problem solving skills and can learn quickly, they > >can pick up wherever specific knowledge they need from books, man > >pages, the web, classes, and conferences. > > That is a fairly enlightened perspective, but it's been my experience > (albeit limited) that most SAs don't really stick around long enough > to learn anything useful. Or once they have really learned something, > they leave. If the average time on a job is on the order of 2-3 years, > then most places really need their SAs to already have knowledge > (obviously there are exceptions, but it's clearly unreasonable for > a computer illiterate company to hire someone who does not have > specific knowledge). From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 16:18:18 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA00442 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from f44.hotmail.com (F44.hotmail.com [207.82.250.55]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00433 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by f44.hotmail.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA06423; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707242314.QAA06423@f44.hotmail.com> Received: from 204.215.229.33 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:14:16 PDT X-Originating-IP: [204.215.229.33] From: "Forrest Boyd" To: Sol.Lederman@eng.sun.com Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:14:16 PDT Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I just want to say that I agree with all the points that Sol Lederman made (removed for brevities sake) regarding the use of hypotheticals in the interview process. The responses typically won't help the interviewer distinguish between a good and great candidate. I have seen those admin types that can memorize syntax but in a "critical time of need," they fall apart. Conversly, I have seen those that seem to take longer for the mundane but support their users in a timely, curtious and professional fashon. I personally want the latter on my team. Pat Boyd >From: Sol.Lederman@eng.sun.com (Sol Lederman) ( ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 16:44:52 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA01900 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA01891 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atserve.at.tandem.com by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.970212) id QAA26825; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:41:21 -0700 Received: from admin1.at.tandem.com (admin1.at.tandem.com [204.160.15.160]) by atserve.at.tandem.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA12629; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from admin1.at.tandem.com by admin1.at.tandem.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) for id QAA19314; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:41:17 -0700 Message-Id: <199707242341.QAA19314@admin1.at.tandem.com> To: Steven Jenkins cc: Mark Verber , "Alan C. Bell" , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:15:46 EDT." <199707242215.SAA08429@lambda.morgan.com> Reply-To: rheaton@bayarea.net Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:41:17 -0700 From: Rick Heaton Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Steven Jenkins writes: > > That is a fairly enlightened perspective, but it's been my experience > (albeit limited) that most SAs don't really stick around long enough > to learn anything useful. Or once they have really learned something, > they leave. If the average time on a job is on the order of 2-3 years, > then most places really need their SAs to already have knowledge > (obviously there are exceptions, but it's clearly unreasonable for > a computer illiterate company to hire someone who does not have > specific knowledge). I strongly disagree. 2-3 years is MORE than enough time to "learn something useful." Heck, 3 months is usually sufficient for a bright, motivated person to be a quite valuable contributor for a given environment. Sure, that's not enough time to go from square 1 to Senior Admin (tm), but I don't think that's what we're talking about here. Granted, it's hard to keep such a person interested for longer than 2-3 years in a single-administrator site, but that's a whole different problem. -- Rick From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 16:53:50 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA02371 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from macsch.com (draco.macsch.com [192.73.8.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA02362 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [161.34.1.42] by macsch.com (5.61/MSC-960531) id AA19377; Thu, 24 Jul 97 16:50:24 -0700 Received: from canismajor.is.macsch.com by bootes.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSCbootes.950222) id AA09563; Thu, 24 Jul 97 16:51:11 PDT Received: by canismajor.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSC.TW.SunOS.1.02) id AA08074; Thu, 24 Jul 97 16:50:35 PDT From: "Todd Williams" Message-Id: <9707241650.ZM8072@canismajor.is.macsch.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:50:35 -0700 In-Reply-To: jurgen@botz.org "Re: a question regarding resumes" (Jul 24, 9:37) References: <199707241637.JAA22133@nova.botz.org> X-Face: "FF3Li6k/|j$-t~Ut~7Tcrqj{YOlB#Kqid0f^}/Hq>yDnjmBRW5bJ\@EwsJ(jeU]B@?t6u'w:Z"C{8$}6kT+!sX[m.HgO{xR7q3>G-_*XwN_twn-d4&S!^or?@79qDeoMX_CS)_/lGAq9_P{9SFa5"!uAO(!,!$:{bQ^4|OAb-q{Pb'tkE^oRm_Wuecl0m4!_USKsHC/#$b_L-*$^T-Vy+_2io@[b?|Ls!_KSFXy!3bbJNxuJqm8$tQ&)090BBF-tx; ^{)[*W,Q\>vEva?wi0FpG/]oa^*& X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95) To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk One of my colleagues here asks both technical questions and non-technical gems like: "It is the 15th century. How would you convince the pope that the Earth is round?" For many system administrators who must deal with upper management, I believe that question can be very relevant. :-) P.S. I am forever indebted to Paul Moriarty for that killer one-liner. I've been using it for years. A true geek would be able to discuss that line in great detail, mentioning what OSes it would or would not work on, what errors there were (if any), and what it might be useful for. A fair but depressingly small percentage get past the 'grep -v' (duh, verbose grep?), but xargs is the one the really separates the men from the boys. -Todd From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 19:54:32 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA11840 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acli.interlog.com (root@acli.interlog.com [198.53.146.23]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA11831 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acli@localhost by acli.interlog.com id <47819-277>; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:50:38 -0400 Message-ID: <19970724225023.46345@ada.acli.interlog.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:50:23 -0400 From: Ambrose Li To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes References: <199707242215.SAA08429@lambda.morgan.com> <199707242341.QAA19314@admin1.at.tandem.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199707242341.QAA19314@admin1.at.tandem.com>; from Rick Heaton on Thu, Jul 24, 1997 at 04:41:17PM -0700 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jul 24, 1997 at 04:41:17PM -0700, Rick Heaton wrote: > I strongly disagree. 2-3 years is MORE than enough time to "learn something > useful." Heck, 3 months is usually sufficient for a bright, motivated > person to be a quite valuable contributor for a given environment. Sure, > that's not enough time to go from square 1 to Senior Admin (tm), but > I don't think that's what we're talking about here. I agree that 2-3 years is more than enough time to "learn something useful". Learning also does not always mean learning technical stuff; one might be able to learn something from unexpected (pleasant or unpleasant) events. -- Ambrose Li http://www.interlog.com/~acli/~acli From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 24 21:25:32 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA16298 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 21:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA16289 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 21:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lacrosse.redhat.com by relay1.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: lacrosse.redhat.com [199.183.24.212]) id QQczrd04755; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lacrosse.redhat.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lacrosse.redhat.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA07204; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:12:04 -0400 Message-Id: <199707250412.AAA07204@lacrosse.redhat.com> To: sechrest@peak.org (John Sechrest) cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:03:42 PDT." <199707242103.OAA18157@peak.org> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:12:04 -0400 From: Bryan Andregg Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:03:42 -0700, John Sechrest wrote: > I am finding this interview questions discussion very > interesting. > > This term (summer), I am teaching a Unix System > Administration Class at Oregon State University. > > So I see the questions from the other side. If > I succeed in teaching my class right, then > my class should be able to fly thru the interview with > a good understanding of the basics. > > What things would you be looking for from a > student who had gone thru a unix system admin > class? Learn what tools are already available on most platforms and how to use them. I once worked with colleague who insisted on writing his own perl scripts for everything. This is a great skill however I once watched him write an entire script to find all of our users mail-spool files above a given size. While his program was running I quickly ran 'find ./ -size +10000 -print' to show him that the script he had written was natively there and ran faster. The addition here is to learn how to ask if certain programs are available or if there is a program already in place to serve a function. My friend was quite upset that I was trying to teach him how to do his job, but now he has another solution which goes just about everywhere he does. NEVER STOP LEARNING. If you can teach that and your studdents can learn that then I cannot think of an organization that wouldn't be happy to train them for whatever they don't know. -- Bryan C. Andregg * * Red Hat Software "Sure, to you she's just a set of intercorrelated coordinates. What fun is that?" -- 'Experiment Zero', Man or Astroman? "Donnie were much more 'user-friendly'. May be you selective about friends:-)" -- Levente Farkas From sage-members-owner Fri Jul 25 02:09:54 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA29408 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA29396 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA20278; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:13:53 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id OAA32079; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:52:07 +0600 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:52:06 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: Steven Jenkins cc: "Alan C. Bell" , sjenkins@ms.com, zwicky@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com, bogstad@pobox.com, thorn@cc.mcgill.ca, macarnor@lsil.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-Reply-To: <199707241649.MAA07682@lambda.morgan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > I would recommend a computer illiterate firm not try to do their hiring > on their own. However, I have yet to deal with a headhunter firm that > consistently provides good, well-screened candidates. Hey, Say i am a foreigner, and i want to get emlpooyed in other country, and say, all the paper things are just fine, how could i get registred in such firm? and how the process of "getting checked" is going on? Well here in former USSR we just don't have such things, so my question may sound strange to you.. anyway Fyodor From sage-members-owner Fri Jul 25 02:17:36 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA29858 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA29834 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA20309; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:34:56 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id PAA32278; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:13:10 +0600 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:13:10 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: "Paul R. Joslin" cc: Jeff_Lucas@hmco.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-Reply-To: <199707241246.IAA19752@hppop.sdrc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > 1) I hate to give up a trick, but I also hate hoarding useful info. Get the > FAQs relevant to the job (comp.unix.shell, comp.sys.hp.*, the Solaris 2 > FAQ, comp.sys.sgi.admin). Don't expect a candidate to know all the > minutiae. of course > (If they do, they've probably memorized the FAQ, or they so good > you can't afford them!) If you don't know what FAQ's are relevant, get maybe it sounds ignorant, but would you mind to point where can i grap those FAQ's > machine says he can't telnet to zeeblebrox. He could yesterday, and > you're on it, so you know it's up. Tell me a little about how you'd > resolve the problem." and the answer supposed to be about trys and hints i gotta check to figure out what couses problem, eh? > to find out what you don't know, just how you solve problems. We don't > expect people to know everything. yeah, All things Comes with Parctice, and on My Mind not the Knowledge itself but Skills to learn ara valuable.. From sage-members-owner Fri Jul 25 02:28:20 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA00270 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA00260 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA20331; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:40:51 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id PAA32340; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:19:03 +0600 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:19:03 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: Bryan Andregg cc: "Paul M. Moriarty" , zwicky , Bill Bogstad , Ron Hall , Norman Macaraeg , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions [was: Re: a question regarding resumes] In-Reply-To: <199707242017.QAA00953@sideshow.redhat.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > When the interviewee walks in and sits down he will notice that there is a > stack of 'Wired' mags on my desk. The very first question that I ask is: > > Do you read Wired? > > If the answer is yes, then the second question is: :)) what would happen if i say no:), Yeah, I have read a number of Wired's (it is hard to get them here anyway) but i didn't find it much useful for Sys Adm, there are not too Much Real Techincal Information, as far as i figured out.. I would Say that Wired is for Entertaiment for System Administrators..:) From sage-members-owner Fri Jul 25 02:44:45 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA00995 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA00986 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA20356; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:49:49 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id PAA32450; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:28:03 +0600 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:28:03 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: Sol Lederman cc: zwicky@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com, falcon@comanche.wildstar.net, bogstad@pobox.com, thorn@cc.mcgill.ca, macarnor@lsil.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-Reply-To: <199707241735.KAA25639@evolved.eng.sun.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > been very successful at setting up yp masters, slaves and clients and at > troubleshooting name service problems. I believe that the people who know > the internals may not be the best at resolving problems and vice versa. yeah, Expirience always means alot.. but anyway i think if you could really undesrtand how things work you would figure out couses of troubles much faster.. and if you have wrong understanding of something, you could give a bunch of tries for nothing, that was happened to me a number of times, when i tried to fix some bug, but till i took the documentation and got awared of how the thing really worked, i wasn't on any success.. > shell programmer? No, the syntax just doesn't always stick in my mind. But, > whenever I need to remember a structure in shell programming I've forgotten > I just do something like "grep if /etc/rc*/* | more" and use one of the yeah.. the same story as with man.. not the knowledge of this thing is imprtant, but the knowledge of the way how to get Information you'd need..:) From sage-members-owner Fri Jul 25 02:58:25 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA01599 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA01547 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA20465; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:16:08 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id PAA00021; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:54:15 +0600 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:54:15 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: rheaton@bayarea.net cc: Steven Jenkins , Mark Verber , "Alan C. Bell" , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-Reply-To: <199707242341.QAA19314@admin1.at.tandem.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > I strongly disagree. 2-3 years is MORE than enough time to "learn something > useful." Heck, 3 months is usually sufficient for a bright, motivated > person to be a quite valuable contributor for a given environment. yeah, If you have basic Knowledge usually few months are enough for getting-in the work, during this time you can figure out what things you gotta clear up to youself, clarify some matters and so on.. I know it by my own expirience. From sage-members-owner Fri Jul 25 04:55:15 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA06471 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 04:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eugate.sgi.com (eugate.sgi.com [193.73.159.10]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA06462 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 04:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eurohub.neu.sgi.com (eurohub.neu.sgi.com [144.253.128.2]) by eugate.sgi.com (8.8.4/970417-sgi-europehub) via SMTP id NAA27194; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:51:29 +0200 (MDT) env-from (zwicky@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com) Received: from pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com by eurohub.neu.sgi.com via ESMTP (950413.SGI.8.6.12/940406.SGI) id NAA02787; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:51:28 +0200 Received: from localhost by pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/911001.SGI) id NAA02162; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:51:25 +0200 Message-Id: <199707251151.NAA02162@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com> To: jurgen@botz.org cc: sage-members@usenix.org, zwicky@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:37:04 PDT." <199707241637.JAA22133@nova.botz.org> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:51:24 +0200 From: zwicky Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >I think they're legit questions... if someone says they've been a Unix >power-user for 10 years and they don't know what 'grep -v' does, then >something is wrong. In an interview situation, I don't know what grep -v does. (In normal life I use it a lot, but it's more of a reflex than conscious knowledge.) I have proven this fact in actual job interviews. I got the job anyway. But it's not a question I ask. I suppose I might take up hiring only people who fail at that sort of question -- it's annoying working with people who can remember these things, because they think you're just being difficult when you tell them to look it up because you don't know. Elizabeth From sage-members-owner Fri Jul 25 05:58:16 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA09047 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 05:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from philabs.research.philips.com (philabs.research.philips.com [192.207.123.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA09038 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 05:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frank.philabs.research.philips.com (frank.philabs.research.philips.com [130.140.55.10]) by philabs.research.philips.com (8.7.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA01541 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:54:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saturn.philabs.research.philips.com by frank.philabs.research.philips.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05863; Fri, 25 Jul 97 08:54:37 EDT Received: (from lxs@localhost) by saturn.philabs.research.philips.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA21064 for sage-members@usenix.ORG; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:54:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:54:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Leon Steiner Message-Id: <199707251254.IAA21064@saturn.philabs.research.philips.com> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: get me out of here Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: AAckgXSF7jweNbieAcxdjw== Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Dear sirs or madames I don't know how I got on your email list since I am not a sage member. I am being flooded with traffic re the resume business. PLEASE, de_list my address given here - - - lxs@philabs.research.philips.com - - - from your cc list. Thankyou, Leon Steiner From sage-members-owner Fri Jul 25 07:46:36 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA13870 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from midway.evtech.com (midway.evtech.com [204.96.163.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA13861 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tahiti.evtech.com (tahiti.evtech.com [192.35.179.19]) by midway.evtech.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA05121 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:43:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from thad.evtech.com (thad.evtech.com [192.35.179.41]) by tahiti.evtech.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA11243; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:43:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Win Bent x265 Received: by thad.evtech.com (8.8.5) id JAA05852; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:43:09 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:43:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199707251443.JAA05852@thad.evtech.com> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes Cc: whb@evtech.com X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >In an interview situation, I don't know what grep -v does. (In normal >life I use it a lot, but it's more of a reflex than conscious knowledge.) >I have proven this fact in actual job interviews. Good point - amazingly enough, even people with proven abilities have been known to freeze up on job interviews. I think a good question for a candidate would be "Write a shell command to kill all processes named 'foo'", and see if the person comes anywhere near the simplicity of the one-liner presented earlier, and if they use xargs or some other method of possibly-multiple inputs. I'm less interested in whether canidiates know all the arguments to all the commands, and more interested in seeing how they solve problems. - Win From sage-members-owner Fri Jul 25 08:46:42 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA17211 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate2.boeing.com (mailgate2.boeing.com [199.238.248.100]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA17195 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from splinter.boeing.com by mailgate2.boeing.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA16963; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:30:25 -0700 Received: from bcstec.ca.boeing.com by splinter.boeing.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA231734325; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:25:25 -0700 Received: by bcstec.ca.boeing.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26426; Fri, 25 Jul 97 08:30:24 PDT From: allyn@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Mark Allyn) Message-Id: <9707251530.AA26426@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> Subject: Re: Interview questions [was: Re: a question regarding resumes] To: fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su (Fyodor Yarochkin) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:30:23 -0700 (PDT) Cc: bandregg@redhat.com, pmm@igtc.com, zwicky@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com, bogstad@pobox.com, thorn@cc.mcgill.ca, macarnor@lsil.com, sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: from "Fyodor Yarochkin" at Jul 25, 97 03:19:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk About Wired Magazine: It is purely entertainment for me. I am amused at the images they put on the fron covers and inside. Sometimes I feel it is as if they take a picture of someone, have it printed on a bag of latex; load the bag up with groceries; and then take a picture of the bag. Distorted images. Much of what is inside; you need to take with a city dump truck full of de-icing salt, let alone a grain of salt. Love & Peace Mark Allyn From sage-members-owner Fri Jul 25 08:54:21 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA17645 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from macsch.com (draco.macsch.com [192.73.8.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA17634 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [161.34.1.42] by macsch.com (5.61/MSC-960531) id AA12602; Fri, 25 Jul 97 08:50:56 -0700 Received: from inkblot.is.macsch.com by bootes.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSCbootes.950222) id AA25360; Fri, 25 Jul 97 08:51:41 PDT Received: by inkblot.is.macsch.com (1.38.193.4/MSC.TW.SunOS.1.02) id AA08556; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:54:49 -0700 From: "Jack Stewart" Message-Id: <970725085449.ZM8554@inkblot.is.macsch.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:54:49 -0700 In-Reply-To: "Todd Williams" "Re: a question regarding resumes" (Jul 24, 4:50pm) References: <199707241637.JAA22133@nova.botz.org> <9707241650.ZM8072@canismajor.is.macsch.com> Reply-To: jack.stewart@macsch.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: "Todd Williams" , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Jul 24, 4:50pm, Todd Williams wrote: > > "It is the 15th century. How would you convince the pope that the > Earth is round?" > Damm! The cat's out of the bag on that one. Some of my other favorite (and less relevant) non-technical questions are: "I give you an african grey elephant. How would you hide it?" "What's your favorite swear word? Why?" You can troll for questions like on shows like "Inside the Actor's Studio" and on the internet. Another real useful style of questioning is to ask technical questions for which there is no correct answer. For example: "Is DHCP routable?" "What's the different between a bridge, a router, and a gateway?" I believe that Evi is the source of the last one (LISA, about three years ago). The other thing to pay attention to is the questions that the person you are interviewing asks you. Michelle Crabb made some really good points about phone interviews at SANS two years ago (i.e. use them! write out your questions!, etc.) I would encourage people to use phone screening techniques as it can save a lot of time. ---Jack -- Jack Stewart #include Network Supervisor email: jack.stewart@macsch.com MacNeal-Schwendler Corporation fax: 213-259-3838 From sage-members-owner Fri Jul 25 09:27:27 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA19382 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA19373 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by ftpbox.mot.com (8.8.5/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with ESMTP id LAA15374 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:23:48 -0500 (CDT) Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender lavelle@cig.mot.com ) Received: from po_box.cig.mot.com (po_box.cig.mot.com [136.182.15.5]) by pobox.mot.com (8.8.5/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with SMTP id LAA21597 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:23:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199707251639.MAA10040@po_box.cig.mot.com> Received: (lavelle@localhost) by adagio.cig.mot.com (8.7.5 Motorola CIG/ITS v1.1 (Solaris 2.5)) id LAA20628; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:23:48 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:23:48 -0500 (CDT) From: "Michael F. Lavelle" In-Reply-To: Fyodor Yarochkin "Re: a question regarding resumes" (Jul 25, 2:52pm) References: <199707250920.EAA28404@adagio.cig.mot.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: Jeff_Lucas@hmco.com Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes - Interview checklist supplement Cc: pmm@igtc.com, bogstad@pobox.com, sage-members@usenix.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Since I compiled this list two years ago, I've been using this as a script to run candidates through. It is very effective to have a "canned" script of questions to lead both the candidate and yourself through the process. There are plenty of other lists available, but since this is a very "hot" topic these days, and only Leon has complained about the volume of correspondence, here's MY 20 cents. While Bill Bogstad and others can add to BTW, I have yet to effectively incorporate the SysAdmin skill levels (refer to http://www.usenix.org/sage/jobs/jobs-descriptions.html) in this script, but I'm hoping for responses/contributions to this script which will flesh out the "II. People Skills" section with "word problem" or "crisis scenario" questions which are open ended and are more effective at teasing out the problem solving abilities of the best candidates. Note this section is at the bottom - not an accident. Most candidates don't get this far. Interview Checklist I. Operating Systems/System Administration : Experience How long ? Size of site - # users, # machines, # support staff In what capacity ? Hours ? Flavors BSD SVR4 Hybrids Differences UNIX Filesystem Inode Superblock fsck Backup superblocks NFS Hard mount vs. soft mount What does NFS use - UDP/TCP ? Is NFS a stateful/stateless protocol ? What is a stale NFS file handle ? NIS What is NIS ? Difference between master/slave/client How do you set up a new NIS slave ? What format are the maps stored in ? Any NIS+ experience ? Automounter/amd What is this used for ? How does it work ? bonus if the kernel "_namei" routine is mentioned What are the kinds of maps ? Paging & swapping What is the difference ? Command to check swap space What are the ways to add more swap space ? System startup and shutdown Networking inetd - services - inetd.conf What happens when you send a HUP signal to inetd ? UNIX command to list routes on a host What protocol does the ping command used ? How to add a default route ? Mail Name a few Mail User Agents Name a few Mail Transfer Agents POP vs IMAP What is SMTP ? Which port ? Configured sendmail ? Name service What is DNS ? What protocl and port does DNS use ? What are primary/secondary name servers? Common problems What is a zone transfer ? What tools have you used to debug NS problems ? What is an MX record ? News - Configured news ? Which one ? Worked with Ethernet, FDDI What is a bridge ? A router ? A switch ? Worked with network hardware Cabling Hubs Routers Terminal Servers Programming/Scripting C perl sh/sed/awk bonus if chapter 49 of "UNIX Power Tools" is mentioned Tcl/Tk Regular Expression syntactic variations in tools Any others ? Any favorites - why ? Define the use of every grep option in the Solaris 2.5.1 man page :-) X Managed an X-windows environment ? Any programming ? What widget set did you use ? Supported X-terminals ? What is XDM ? System Maintenance Upgrades File system layouts across different platforms Software distribution - rdist Manage system configuration files Revision control Modifying startup scripts Logging - syslog configuration Performance monitoring SNMP Troubleshooting A user says that when they log in, all their X clients start up, and then die and they get kicked out. A user has an account on two machines A and B. When she tries to open an ftp connection from A to B, after typing in her login and passwd, she gets kicked out. But she can log in to machine B fine, and open up ftp from B to A and transfer files OK. Have you supported free software ? How do you debug problems in the port process? Security How do you handle security at your site ? cops/crack/tripwire installation and use ? any commercial package ? any other background like Kerberos, etc. System Programming Documentation License Managers Writing RFIs/RFPs Other OSes - Windows, Mac II. People Skills : Any help-desk/front-line support Describe the most difficult user you have handled and how How would you handle a *difficult* person on your project ? III. Project/People Management : Capacity planning Managing projects Budgeting responsibility Experience in hiring/interviewing, personnel evaluations. Managing people Vendor Contacts -- ============================================================================= Michael Lavelle Project Manager, Systems & Network Phone/Fax 847.632.7359/4552 Motorola CIG ITS From sage-members-owner Fri Jul 25 09:52:08 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA20640 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:52:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gadget.cscaper.com (gadget.cscaper.com [206.67.186.3]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA20623 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from merlyn@localhost) by gadget.cscaper.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) id JAA14993; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:46:16 -0700 (MST) To: Win Bent x265 Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes References: <199707251443.JAA05852@thad.evtech.com> From: Randal Schwartz Date: 25 Jul 1997 09:44:47 -0700 In-Reply-To: Win Bent x265's message of "Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:43:09 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: <8cd8o7nksg.fsf@gadget.cscaper.com> Lines: 17 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.64/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Win" == Win Bent x265 writes: Win> I think a good question for a candidate would be "Write a shell Win> command to kill all processes named 'foo'", and see if the person comes Win> anywhere near the simplicity of the one-liner presented earlier, and if Win> they use xargs or some other method of possibly-multiple inputs. And especially if they don't use "kill -9" or "grep -v grep". Both of those are dead givaways that they are mostly clueless and are guilty of cargo-cult cut-n-paste programming. -- Name: Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095 Keywords: Perl training, UNIX[tm] consulting, video production, skiing, flying Email: Snail: (Call) PGP-Key: (finger merlyn@ora.com) Web: My Home Page! Quote: "I'm telling you, if I could have five lines in my .sig, I would!" -- me From sage-members-owner Fri Jul 25 10:38:48 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA23111 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (lokkur.dexter.mi.us [148.59.2.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23093 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.8.5/8.8.5/lokkur-1.1-scs) id NAA05429; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:33:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve Simmons Message-Id: <199707251733.NAA05429@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes To: jack.stewart@macsch.com Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:33:06 -0400 (EDT) Cc: todd@macsch.com (Todd Williams), sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <970725085449.ZM8554@inkblot.is.macsch.com> from "Jack Stewart" at Jul 25, 1997 08:54:49 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >Damm! The cat's out of the bag on that one. Some of my other favorite (and >less relevant) non-technical questions are: > > "I give you an african grey elephant. How would you hide it?" In Africa, at twilight. Everybody knows that one. From sage-members-owner Fri Jul 25 12:50:05 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA29652 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nova.botz.org (root@[209.21.31.7]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA29607 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nova.botz.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nova.botz.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA28796 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:45:08 -0700 Message-Id: <199707251945.MAA28796@nova.botz.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0delta 6/3/97 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Jurgen Botz Subject: Wired (was: Re: Interview questions) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:30:23 PDT." <9707251530.AA26426@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:45:08 -0700 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Ok, this is getting rather far off-topic, but I refuse to be in the closet about my Wired-reading habit, so I feel I have to take a stand here. ;-) I have noticed a tendency toward Wired-bashing in sysadmin circles before, and I'm really puzzled by the absurdly overblown anti-Wired rhetoric I hear sometimes (i.e. showing potential candidates who admit to liking Wired the door immediately... give me a break). I don't understand this attitude. Wired is not a "techie" magazine about technology itself, it is a pop magazine about "technoculture" and technology policy, and it's damned good at being that. Wired is also pretty good from a journalistic standpoint... on issues of technology policy certainly it is /far/ better than other mainstream media (say the New York Times). And I enjoy reading about technoculture... there /is/ such a thing and it plays a very important role in the process by which the technlogy we (SAGE members) have been working with for years gets absorbed into the mainstream. I for one feel that I need to know about it. Even seasoned technologists like us can learn things from Wired... take Neal Stephenson's article last December on the FLAG project... we all use and depend on the trans-continental phone cables but how many of us really knew what was involved, both from the engineering and political perspectives, in laying such cables? Personally I was rivetted, excited and enlightened by this gem of an article, not to mention greatly entertained. By seeing and managing to conveigh the complexity of the effort at all different levels, Stephenson gave us a rare view of a complex and secretive industry of which few people who are not insiders have more than an inkling. Of course we should take what we read in Wired with a grain of salt... I hope we all take /anything/ we read /anywhere/ in the popular press with a good dose of salt. But I'm not ashamed to say that I read Wired basically every month, greatly enjoy doing so, and not infrequently learn a thing or two. Of the Wired-bashers I would like to ask; if you're singling out Wired from the popular press, then exactly what's out there that is better? -- Jurgen Botz Sr. System Administrator From sage-members-owner Fri Jul 25 21:19:11 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA24217 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from delta.ece.nwu.edu (delta.ece.nwu.edu [129.105.5.103]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA24208 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bonomi@localhost) by delta.ece.nwu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) id XAA08418; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:15:39 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:15:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Robert Bonomi Message-Id: <199707260415.XAA08418@delta.ece.nwu.edu> To: jack.stewart@macsch.com, scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes Cc: sage-members@usenix.org, todd@macsch.com Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk tro sage-members@usenix.ORG Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes + From: Steve Simmons + Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes + To: jack.stewart@macsch.com + Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:33:06 -0400 (EDT) + + >Damm! The cat's out of the bag on that one. Some of my other favorite (and + >less relevant) non-technical questions are: + > + > "I give you an african grey elephant. How would you hide it?" + + In Africa, at twilight. Everybody knows that one. An alternative: paint his toe-nails red, and park him in a cherry tree. From sage-members-owner Sat Jul 26 09:10:18 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA24358 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA24349 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sideshow.redhat.com by relay1.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: sideshow.redhat.com [199.183.24.15]) id QQczwq09020; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 12:06:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sideshow.redhat.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sideshow.redhat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA14460; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 12:01:27 -0400 Message-Id: <199707261601.MAA14460@sideshow.redhat.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0epsilon 1/27/96 BA To: Jurgen Botz cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Wired (was: Re: Interview questions) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:45:08 PDT." <199707251945.MAA28796@nova.botz.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 12:01:27 -0400 From: Bryan Andregg Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:45:08 -0700, Jurgen Botz wrote: > Of the Wired-bashers I would like to ask; if you're singling out >Wired from the popular press, then exactly what's out there that is better? > Actually. one of the problems I have is that there isn't anything better. -- Bryan C. Andregg * * Red Hat Software "Sure, to you she's just a set of intercorrelated coordinates. What fun is that?" -- 'Experiment Zero', Man or Astroman? "Donnie were much more 'user-friendly'. May be you selective about friends:-)" -- Levente Farkas From sage-members-owner Sun Jul 27 22:02:58 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA25842 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 27 Jul 1997 22:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sparky.arl.mil (sparky.arl.mil [128.63.58.18]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA25833 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 1997 22:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 0:57:25 EDT From: "James L. Fielding" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: [Robert Bonomi: Re: a question regarding resumes] Organization: US Army Research Laboratory Message-ID: <9707280057.aa23674@sparky.arl.mil> Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:15:39 -0500 (CDT) > From: Robert Bonomi > Message-Id: <199707260415.XAA08418@delta.ece.nwu.edu> > > + From: Steve Simmons > + Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes > + To: jack.stewart@macsch.com > + Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:33:06 -0400 (EDT) > + > + >Damm! The cat's out of the bag on that one. Some of my other favorite (and > + >less relevant) non-technical questions are: > + > > + > "I give you an african grey elephant. How would you hide it?" > + > + In Africa, at twilight. Everybody knows that one. > > An alternative: paint his toe-nails red, and park him in a cherry tree. You paint it white and disavow it as a project management didn't support. Jim Fielding From sage-members-owner Sun Jul 27 23:33:56 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA29496 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sparky.arl.mil (sparky.arl.mil [128.63.58.18]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA29451 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 2:30:23 EDT From: "James L. Fielding" To: sage-members@usenix.org cc: jamesf@arl.mil Subject: [Bryan Andregg: Re: Wired (was: Re: Interview questions)] Organization: US Army Research Laboratory Message-ID: <9707280230.aa06703@sparky.arl.mil> Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > > Of the Wired-bashers I would like to ask; if you're singling out > >Wired from the popular press, then exactly what's out there that is better? > > > > Actually. one of the problems I have is that there isn't anything better. > I hope to nip this "discussion" in the bud. The point of the original discussion was not magazines. It was job interviews. There are a lot of decent magazines and ezines out there. Getting into a discussion about which are best would degenerate into a religous war (simililar to which editor is best). I'm not interested in which magazines are "best". If somebody wants to hire based on whether the job candidate reads a particular magazine, thats their problem. The competent candidate will recognize the interview for what it is and make the decision that's best for him/her. I've found the discussion about job interview techniques most enlightening. I haven't had to interview for 10 years. Since I last interviewed, I've assumed administrative responsibilities for an Internet root nameserver (h.root-servers.net) and developed into a Level IV Unix system administrator. Come spring, after the shake out of the top level DNS, I may find myself on the interview circuit. How are you going to interview someone with my credentials? Do I have to demonstrate that I know what "grep -v" means? Maybe I don't get the job because I don't read a particular magazine. Jim Fielding From sage-members-owner Mon Jul 28 02:54:30 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA09060 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 02:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA09009 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 02:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA29314; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:15:39 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id PAA05754; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:51:10 +0600 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:51:10 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: "James L. Fielding" cc: sage-members@usenix.org, jamesf@arl.mil Subject: Re: [Bryan Andregg: Re: Wired (was: Re: Interview questions)] In-Reply-To: <9707280230.aa06703@sparky.arl.mil> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > I've found the discussion about job interview techniques most enlightening. > I haven't had to interview for 10 years. Since I last interviewed, I've > assumed administrative responsibilities for an Internet root nameserver > (h.root-servers.net) and developed into a Level IV Unix system administrator. > Come spring, after the shake out of the top level DNS, I may find myself on > the interview circuit. How are you going to interview someone with my > credentials? Do I have to demonstrate that I know what "grep -v" means? > Maybe I don't get the job because I don't read a particular magazine. > well, sometimes such thing might be the couse as well, you know, once i applied a job (a parttime job) and failed just b/c i came to the interview in wrong "cloth". You know i never used to wear tie and white Shirt.. and that coused the fail. Interviewer even didn't talk to me much.. I wonder if such Private Things (the way i wear, do I smoke, what i read) are so Important? - quotes - " The old computer geek: rubber shoes, blue jeans, tee-shirt, long beard, hair to the shoulders, ugly car... ("You're not a real programmer if your car cost more than your computer.") Usually worked at night." " A tie will cut off the blood flowing to your brain. Most of the guys with ties seem to be unable to think quickly ." From sage-members-owner Mon Jul 28 09:00:03 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA25569 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ferrari.sfu.ca (ferrari.sfu.ca [142.58.110.11]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25555 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wizard.ucs.sfu.ca (wizard.ucs.sfu.ca [142.58.1.70]) by ferrari.sfu.ca with SMTP (8.8.5/SFU-2.7H) id IAA00346 for (from richard@wizard.ucs.sfu.ca); Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wizard.ucs.sfu.ca (NX5.67f2/NX3.0S) id AA29001; Mon, 28 Jul 97 08:55:30 -0700 Message-Id: <9707281555.AA29001@wizard.ucs.sfu.ca> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Richard Chycoski Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 08:55:27 -0700 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions Reply-To: richard@sfu.ca References: Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > From: Fyodor Yarochkin > > well, sometimes such thing might be the couse as well, you know, once i > applied a job (a parttime job) and failed just b/c i came to the > interview in wrong "cloth". You know i never used to wear tie and white > Shirt.. and that coused the fail. Interviewer even didn't talk to me > much.. I wonder if such Private Things (the way i wear, do I smoke, what > i read) are so Important? > Dressing well for an interview is still a very good practice (at least for most jobs in most parts of the world). It is suggested that you should dress in your best business suit even if applying for a job where you would be expected to dress much less formally, such as street sweeping or lawn mowing. I work at a university campus where no dress code exists, and on hot summer days (in an office with many computers and no air conditioning) I will usually wear a t-shirt and shorts. However, I would never consider going to a job interview on this campus (even with people I already know) in anything but a decent suit and tie. I also dress more formally when I am involved in interviewing others. "Dressing the part" (and being neat in appearance in other ways, such as having a proper haircut) sets the tone for a professional relationship with a prospective employer (or employee), helps show that you are earnest in wanting the job, and removes a possible obstacle where you will be rejected before even being considered. Uniforms (and standard business dress is a kind of "uniform") serve the purpose of levelling between people, they help people feel more comfortable with one another (especially if they do not already know each other). --- - Richard Chycoski Senior Systems Consultant Simon Fraser University Academic Computing Services richard@sfu.ca From sage-members-owner Mon Jul 28 10:35:41 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA00461 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nothing.ucsd.edu (nothing.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.114]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA00403 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nothing.ucsd.edu (8.8.5/UCSDGENERIC.5) id KAA14554 to sage-members@usenix.ORG; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:29:57 -0700 (PDT) From: brian@nothing.ucsd.edu (Brian Kantor) Message-Id: <199707281729.KAA14554@nothing.ucsd.edu> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Here at the University, I'm not inclined to pay attention to what the applicant is wearing UNLESS he's clearly overdressed, and then I will ask. Sometimes it's that the applicant has the wrong impression of the environment here, and the clothing can be a clue to that. Someone who thinks that a suit is daily wear is probably going to be uncomfortable here, where T-shirt, sandals, and shorts are quite common, considering San Diego's weather and the fact that we're heavily into oceanography. But we're more casual than most - I actually suggest to interviewees during the phone screening that they DON'T wear a tie - I've been here 27+ years and I've never worn one. I don't worry about short/long hair, tatoos, and piercings. Some of our strangest-looking people have been our best. Fearsome boots are not important. Clean grooming and a lack of body odor do make a favourable impression, of course. But that is secondary to ability. I want to know if you can do the job. What I'm going to ask you about is to see what you know and what you can figure out. I want to know how you think. But for heaven's sake, don't lie to me. If you don't know, say so. If you want to guess, fine, but tell me you're guessing - I want to know how your mind and especially the problem-solving part of it works. What we do here (manage a 15,000+ host network and effectively a 40,000 customer ISP) is unusual enough that most applicants aren't going to be proficient at it. What I want to know is whether you can LEARN it. - Brian [See www.ucsd.edu for current openings. Please don't write to me.] From sage-members-owner Mon Jul 28 10:49:29 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01639 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA01630 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atserve.at.tandem.com by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.970212) id KAA25614; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:45:55 -0700 Received: from admin1.at.tandem.com (admin1.at.tandem.com [204.160.15.160]) by atserve.at.tandem.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA29206; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from admin1.at.tandem.com by admin1.at.tandem.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) for id KAA22091; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:45:49 -0700 Message-Id: <199707281745.KAA22091@admin1.at.tandem.com> To: richard@sfu.ca cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:55:27 PDT." <9707281555.AA29001@wizard.ucs.sfu.ca> Reply-To: rheaton@bayarea.net Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:45:49 -0700 From: Rick Heaton Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Richard Chycoski writes: > > Dressing well for an interview is still a very good practice (at least for most jobs in most > parts of the world). It is suggested that you should dress in your best business suit even if > applying for a job where you would be expected to dress much less formally, such as street > sweeping or lawn mowing. And, on the other side of the coin... "If they're going to reject me for a job because I didn't wear a suit, then I don't want to work for them." Many caveats apply to this attitude, not the least of which is that you must be able to afford it. After all, if you're desperate for a job, and if dressing well will increase your chances even slightly, then you might think that it's worth it to own and wear a suit. I live in Silicon Valley, and haven't owned a suit or worn a tie for the last five (contract) jobs that I've interviewed for and landed. I wouldn't have it any other way. As it happens, my hair is also down to my waist. Granted, I am, at least, clean. There ARE places that will reject you because of the way you dress, but here in Silicon Valley, I can afford to reject those employers. I count on my skills and experience to get me the jobs that I want, and it's worked pretty well so far. I'd say that conforming to society's rules has its benefits (you're somewhat more likely to get a job) and its costs (you might get a job you don't like). For some, those costs will be greater than for others. For other people, the benefits will be greater. Make your own decisions, but don't let yourself be convinced that there's only one choice. -- Rick From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 06:27:13 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA25789 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 06:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yod.netaccess.co.il (root@netaccess-dial.NetVision.net.il [199.203.95.101]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA25778 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 06:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from yaron@localhost) by yod.netaccess.co.il (8.8.5/8.8.2) id QAA25565; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:23:38 +0300 (IDT) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:23:37 +0300 (IDT) From: Yaron Zabary X-Sender: yaron@yod To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions In-Reply-To: <9707281555.AA29001@wizard.ucs.sfu.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Richard Chycoski wrote: > > From: Fyodor Yarochkin > > > > well, sometimes such thing might be the couse as well, you know, once i > > applied a job (a parttime job) and failed just b/c i came to the > > interview in wrong "cloth". You know i never used to wear tie and white > > Shirt.. and that coused the fail. Interviewer even didn't talk to me > > much.. I wonder if such Private Things (the way i wear, do I smoke, what > > i read) are so Important? > > > > Dressing well for an interview is still a very good practice (at least for most jobs in most > parts of the world). It is suggested that you should dress in your best business suit even if > applying for a job where you would be expected to dress much less formally, such as street > sweeping or lawn mowing. > > I work at a university campus where no dress code exists, and on hot summer days (in an office > with many computers and no air conditioning) I will usually wear a t-shirt and shorts. However, I > would never consider going to a job interview on this campus (even with people I already know) in > anything but a decent suit and tie. I also dress more formally when I am involved in interviewing > others. > > "Dressing the part" (and being neat in appearance in other ways, such as having a proper haircut) > sets the tone for a professional relationship with a prospective employer (or employee), helps > show that you are earnest in wanting the job, and removes a possible obstacle where you will be > rejected before even being considered. Uniforms (and standard business dress is a kind of > "uniform") serve the purpose of levelling between people, they help people feel more comfortable > with one another (especially if they do not already know each other). In the place I come from, if you come to an interview with a tie, my first thought would probably be: "Hmm, the guy is probably clueless and trying to hide it with this tie". As if the guy was saying: "I am so insecure of my professional capabilities that I need to gain points elsewhere". The guy would start with less points than anyone with a shorts ("I am good and can come to an interview with shorts"). (Oh, it can get quite hot in these parts of the world, so wearing a tie is less common than in other parts of the world). > > --- > - Richard Chycoski > Senior Systems Consultant > Simon Fraser University > Academic Computing Services > richard@sfu.ca > -- Yaron. From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 08:03:54 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA00284 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00275 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA02348; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:27:20 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id VAA24517; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:01:47 +0600 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:01:47 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: richard@sfu.ca cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions In-Reply-To: <9707281555.AA29001@wizard.ucs.sfu.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > > Shirt.. and that coused the fail. Interviewer even didn't talk to me > > much.. I wonder if such Private Things (the way i wear, do I smoke, what > > i read) are so Important? > > > > Dressing well for an interview is still a very good practice (at least for most jobs in most > parts of the world). It is suggested that you should dress in your best business suit but what if am programmer, and i just don't own business suit? you think it would be desirable to get and buy one for every time i am going to interview.. hmm..:) sounds abit strange.. i wonder why just "wearing good" e.g. clear cloth won't do.. or should i look always like businessman, with glasses and stuff to create the Impression "i am smart, i am the one you need". Well, usually Bosses look for such people, b/c they think they would have less conflicts with such persons, but anyway, i would not want to work for one of such chiefs, they must respect my knowledge, or skills, but not the way i wear, ... > I work at a university campus where no dress code exists, and on hot summer days (in an office > with many computers and no air conditioning) I will usually wear a t-shirt and shorts. However, I > would never consider going to a job interview on this campus (even with people I already know) in > anything but a decent suit and tie. I also dress more formally when I am involved in interviewing > others. hmm., well, that seems to kind of rules:( > "Dressing the part" (and being neat in appearance in other ways, such as having a proper haircut) > sets the tone for a professional relationship with a prospective employer (or employee), helps > show that you are earnest in wanting the job, :) so if i don't wear "correct suit" then it is the sign i don't want the job, eh?:) Well, why only the thing that i came to interview, doesn't say it?:) well, i used to think that on interviews people are valued by their knowledge and skills, but not by such private matters.. From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 09:49:33 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA06146 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nova.botz.org (root@[209.21.31.7]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA06135 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nova.botz.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nova.botz.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA09571 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:43:58 -0700 Message-Id: <199707291643.JAA09571@nova.botz.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0delta 6/3/97 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Jurgen Botz Subject: Re: Interview questions In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:23:37 +0300." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:43:57 -0700 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk ``Clothes make people'' goes an old saying in my home country. Being well-dressed makes a good impression, there is no question about that. What's a lot less clear is what "well-dressed" means, and I would say that the important thing is to be dressed /appropriately/. On Wall Street a suit and tie will at least occasionally be required even of sysadmins, and since ones prospective superiors will likely be wearing their business uniform at all times, wearing similar attire for an interview would probably be a very good idea. In the Silicon Valley on the other hand, not even CEOs wear suits (except maybe when meeting with prospective investors from Wall Street ;-) so for a techie interviewee to show up in one is silly at best and may be taken as a sign of insecurity due to lack of real technical skill at worst. Personally, unless I wanted a job in the financial industry, I won't wear a suit to an interview because I wouldn't want a job where it was required. But I wouldn't wear shorts and sandals, my favorite outfit so long as weather permits, to an interview either. A clean, freshly pressed set of casual clothes and real shoes have always worked well for me. - Jurgen From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 10:10:06 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA07610 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tannis.bos.cie.cuc.com (mailhost.bos.cie.cuc.com [206.243.224.10]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA07592 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from roanoke.sfo.cie.cuc.com (roanoke.sfo.cie.cuc.com [206.243.231.10]) by tannis.bos.cie.cuc.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA08714; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:06:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jericho.sfo.cie.cuc.com (jericho.sfo.cie.cuc.com [206.243.231.122]) by roanoke.sfo.cie.cuc.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23202; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from josh@localhost) by jericho.sfo.cie.cuc.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA12105; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707291706.KAA12105@jericho.sfo.cie.cuc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions In-Reply-To: References: <9707281555.AA29001@wizard.ucs.sfu.ca> X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under Emacs 19.34.1 From: Josh Smith X-Attribution: JBS Organization: CUC Internet Engineering, San Mateo CA USA Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk When we've interviewed people here, we've often tried to give them advance warning that it's ok for them to dress casual, so that they don't have to worry about whether they should dress up to look professional, or dress casual to demonstrate that they're happy in a casual environment, and fret that we'll take it the wrong way if they guess wrong. We occasionally forget to warn candidates ahead of time, in which case we usually make a point of saying something during the interview to make sure that they know that the dress code is casual, and that they're ok with that. -- Josh Smith <> CUC International <> Internet Engineering Systems Administrator <> http://www.cuc.com/ <> San Mateo, CA, USA From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 10:22:35 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA08212 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from firefly.cisco.com (firefly.cisco.com [171.69.63.22]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08196 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.cisco.com (8.8.4-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id KAA19432 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707291718.KAA19432@firefly.cisco.com> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:01:47 +0600." Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:18:27 -0700 From: "Kenneth E. Paul" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk various and sundry discussions of dress code deleted... Since dress codes differ from place to place, I'm in the habit of telling candidates what the dress code is here, (shorts and T-shirts), but that they should wear whatever makes them feel the most comfortable for the interview. This gives the candidate a realistic set of expectations coming in and hopefully can eliminate an awkward situation for them which should make for a more relaxed interview as they get raked over the coals ;-) Regards, Kenny Paul ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kenneth E. Paul, Sr. Systems Administrator kenny@cisco.com Engineering Services, Datacenter Operations 408-526-5210 Cisco Systems, Inc. 190 W. Tasman Drive, San Jose CA, 95134 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's a shame that our kids are dumb but our bombs are smart." -Danny Elfman From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 10:44:24 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA09583 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.doit.wisc.edu (ra.adp.wisc.edu [144.92.104.33]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA09574 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:44:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (pkh@localhost) by ra.doit.wisc.edu (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id MAA44120; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:40:46 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:40:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Kent Hooker To: Yaron Zabary cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions - perhaps enough? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Yaron Zabary wrote: > On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Richard Chycoski wrote: > > > > From: Fyodor Yarochkin > > > > > > well, sometimes such thing might be the couse as well, you know, once i > > > applied a job (a parttime job) and failed just b/c i came to the > > > interview in wrong "cloth". You know i never used to wear tie and white > > > Shirt.. and that coused the fail. Interviewer even didn't talk to me > > > much.. I wonder if such Private Things (the way i wear, do I smoke, what > > > i read) are so Important? > > > > > > > Dressing well for an interview is still a very good practice (at least for most jobs in most > > parts of the world). It is suggested that you should dress in your best business suit even if > > applying for a job where you would be expected to dress much less formally, such as street > > sweeping or lawn mowing. This may be reality in some parts of the world, but in the semi-rural MidWest USA, during 85-95 degree days with 80-95% humidity, only the brain-dead from heck wear suits. > > > > I work at a university campus where no dress code exists Same here. > > In the place I come from, if you come to an interview with a tie, my > first thought would probably be: "Hmm, the guy is probably clueless and > trying to hide it with this tie". As if the guy was saying: "I am so > insecure of my professional capabilities that I need to gain points > elsewhere". The guy would start with less points than anyone with a shorts > ("I am good and can come to an interview with shorts"). Clueless D00D that I am, I did just that for my last two interviews, both involving interview teams that interviewed folks brought in from a nationwide hunt, and lowly moi. In the first interview, the interviewers (in 1988) greeted me with subdued snickers - I was the only suit in the room. In the second (1994), everyone filed out into the hall after I was invited in the interview room, asking comically about where I was, if I was coming, did I cancel. Haw haw. After they stopped helpless laughter in their seats, the interview commenced in earnest. Oh, after that first interview (and I got the job, thank goodness not due to my suit), I was remonstrated by my new employer that "jeans and cutoffs" are the order of the day, and please to not make folks conspicuous by wearing more formal attire like a dress shirt, tie, and slacks. I made it my business to buy the crummiest jeans I could find, and haven't looked back. So, it takes all sorts. Having said that, may I say the resume thread, apparel thread, etc. has gone on long enough? Thanks! __ Kent Hooker, Sr. Systems Programmer, Unix Support & Systems Admin. Division of Information Technology, University of Wisconsin-Madison Internet: khooker@doit.wisc.edu | Voice: (608) 263-1990 PGP Public Key available at URL: http://ra.doit.wisc.edu:8888 ____________________________________________________________________ From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 11:40:57 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA13035 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cnri.reston.va.us (ns.CNRI.Reston.VA.US [132.151.1.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13026 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cujo (cujo [132.151.1.236]) by cnri.reston.va.us (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTPid OAA21744 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:40:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33DE393E.6A06@cnri.reston.va.us> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:41:02 -0400 From: Mark Nguyen Organization: Corporation for National Research Initiatives X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Yaron Zabary wrote: > > On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Richard Chycoski wrote: > > > > Dressing well for an interview is still a very good practice (at least for most jobs in most > > parts of the world). It is suggested that you should dress in your best business suit even if > > applying for a job where you would be expected to dress much less formally, such as street > > sweeping or lawn mowing. > > > > I work at a university campus where no dress code exists, and on hot summer days (in an office > > with many computers and no air conditioning) I will usually wear a t-shirt and shorts. However, I > > would never consider going to a job interview on this campus (even with people I already know) in > > anything but a decent suit and tie. I also dress more formally when I am involved in interviewing > > others. > > > > "Dressing the part" (and being neat in appearance in other ways, such as having a proper haircut) > > sets the tone for a professional relationship with a prospective employer (or employee), helps > > show that you are earnest in wanting the job, and removes a possible obstacle where you will be > > rejected before even being considered. Uniforms (and standard business dress is a kind of > > "uniform") serve the purpose of levelling between people, they help people feel more comfortable > > with one another (especially if they do not already know each other). > > In the place I come from, if you come to an interview with a tie, my > first thought would probably be: "Hmm, the guy is probably clueless and > trying to hide it with this tie". As if the guy was saying: "I am so > insecure of my professional capabilities that I need to gain points > elsewhere". The guy would start with less points than anyone with a shorts > ("I am good and can come to an interview with shorts"). It's absolutely essential to "dress the part". It shows that you have respect for the hiring manager. Unless they told you ahead of time, "When you come in for your interview, don't worry about dressing up...we are very casual here." Then you were casual clothes. Otherwise it would be careless for you to walk into an interview with a T-shirt...especially non-technical managers or VPs (who don't understand the concept of "casual"). > well, i used to think that on interviews people are valued by their > knowledge and skills, but not by such private matters.. It's called "Proffessional Atire"... and you only have to wear it during interviews, so what's the big deal. If I were the hiring manager and someone came in with shorts and a T-shirt, I would think, "Who does this guy think he is? Is he serious about this job? Is he so cocky that he thinks he is too good to show me cares about getting this job? He may be good but I don't want anyone who thinks he's the greatest and can do anything he wants. I'll find someone else." Actually, I would probably tell him to dress casually ahead of time...but if I were the interviewee, I would not take a chance and wear a T-shirt. Mark From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 12:27:18 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA15962 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clavin.interaccess.com (clavin.interaccess.com [207.70.126.132]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA15953 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yin.interaccess.com (qmailr@yin.interaccess.com [207.208.45.69]) by clavin.interaccess.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id OAA04626 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:24:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 9940 invoked by uid 358); 29 Jul 1997 19:18:40 -0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:18:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Robert Owen Thomas X-Sender: robt@yin.interaccess.com To: SAGE Members Subject: Interview attire In-Reply-To: <199707291643.JAA09571@nova.botz.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Howdy, all-- I think it's a good idea to get a feel for the environment first. I am a big fan of phone interviews for this very reason. You can simply ask what the dress code is for the company with which you are interviewing. Then plan your on-site interview attire accordingly. I have found this works well for me. And, as Jurgen pointed out, it's best to put on "suitable" attire. This also gives you the opportunity to make a decision right up front. If the response is "suit and tie," and this gives you hives, cancel the on-site interview right then and there. Now, there are exceptions. When I asked one prospective client about the dress code, he responded: "Well, we prefer that you cover your genitals." Obviously, I did cover a *bit* more than that for the on-site interview... ;-) --Rob -- Robert Owen Thomas robt@cymru.com The best way to deal with predators is to taste terrible. From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 12:58:07 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA18495 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from f55.hotmail.com (F55.hotmail.com [207.82.250.141]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA23746 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by f55.hotmail.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA24927; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707231239.FAA24927@f55.hotmail.com> Received: from 206.228.234.32 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:39:54 PDT X-Originating-IP: [206.228.234.32] From: "Forrest Boyd" To: sage-members@usenix.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:39:54 PDT Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk unsubscribe pboyd@ncwc.edu ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 13:17:16 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA19508 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from extractor.compass-da.com (firewall-user@gateway.compass-da.com [162.17.253.11]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA19481 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by extractor.compass-da.com; id AA14148; Tue, 29 Jul 97 12:45:49 PDT Received: from luminary.sanjose.compass-da.com(162.17.1.44) by extractor.compass-da.com via smap (V1.3) id xma014144; Tue, 29 Jul 97 12:45:47 -0700 Received: from norac.sanjose.compass-da.com (norac [162.17.12.15]) by luminary.sanjose.compass-da.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id MAA28299 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from paulo@localhost) by norac.sanjose.compass-da.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA12882 for sage-members@usenix.org; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:45:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul Orr Message-Id: <199707291945.MAA12882@norac.sanjose.compass-da.com> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: O0Ob1YyqYwG6kE1ZYgbEBg== Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I have a vaguely related question. I was told a while back at an interview or post interview that I failed to get the job because "you didn't sell yourself". What does that mean exactly? They didn't say. I think I'm qualified but this reason was very unhelpful. Paul Orr P.S. If there are any Xilinx employees who know what this means I'd appreciate a response. From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 13:30:51 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA20417 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA20408 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atserve.at.tandem.com by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.970212) id NAA22980; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:27:21 -0700 Received: from admin1.at.tandem.com (admin1.at.tandem.com [204.160.15.160]) by atserve.at.tandem.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA05993; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:27:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from admin1.at.tandem.com by admin1.at.tandem.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) for id NAA23520; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:27:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199707292027.NAA23520@admin1.at.tandem.com> To: Mark Nguyen cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:41:02 EDT." <33DE393E.6A06@cnri.reston.va.us> Reply-To: rheaton@bayarea.net Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:27:18 -0700 From: Rick Heaton Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Mark Nguyen writes: > > It's called "Proffessional Atire"... and you only have to wear it during > interviews, so what's the big deal. If I were the hiring manager and > someone came in with shorts and a T-shirt, I would think, "Who does this > guy think he is? Is he serious about this job? Is he so cocky that he > thinks he is too good to show me cares about getting this job? He may > be good but I don't want anyone who thinks he's the greatest and can do > anything he wants. I'll find someone else." Ah. And if that were your attitude (and you certainly have a right to it), then I would prefer not to work for you. That's _my_ choice. So, if I come to an interview with you, and you reject me because of what I wear, then I have done both of us a favor. You don't have to work with someone whom you would regard as cocky, and I don't have to work with someone whom I would regard as snotty. Fair trade, eh? -- Rick P.S. I walked into a company for an interview once, wearing my usual polo shirt and Dockers ensemble, and EVERYONE was wearing a tie. I was definitely underdressed. They offered me a job, but I was so uncomfortable in such a stiff-necked environment that I declined. The interview process goes both ways. From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 13:43:12 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA21138 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nick.arc.nasa.gov (nick.arc.nasa.gov [143.232.48.121]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA11383 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.102.170.159] (wily.arc.nasa.gov [128.102.170.159]) by nick.arc.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA16735 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:50:20 -0800 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Bill Pugh Subject: Enough!! Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Since when has sage-members become a forum on how to get a job, or for the ego of pedantic interviewers showing off their supposed skills?? Send to me the information I require, or remove me from the list. Bill Pugh bpugh@mail.arc.nasa.gov Logicon/SYRE NASA Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA 94035 415.604.0303 pager: 12-8153 From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 13:45:31 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA21250 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phibes.dartmouth.edu (phibes.dartmouth.edu [129.170.18.45]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA21241 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from paw@localhost) by phibes.dartmouth.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id QAA11644; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:42:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:42:01 -0400 From: paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu Message-Id: <199707292042.QAA11644@phibes.dartmouth.edu> To: Paul.Orr@compass-da.com Subject: Re: Interview questions Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I have a vaguely related question. I was told a while back at an interview or post interview that I failed to get the job because "you didn't sell yourself". What does that mean exactly? They didn't say. I think I'm qualified but this reason was very unhelpful. Paul Orr It may have just been a copout. OTOH, you may have not shown them what they were looking for - were you enthusiastic, communicative, open, and friendly? Did you show interest in the position, answer questions positively, and talk about specifics of your background that would fit in well? Were you on time, neat, and clean? Giving a reason for not hiring someone is a courtesy. It's also an exposure - the failed prospect might decide to try to make a legal issue out of whatever's said. I certainly wouldn't count on candor. Pat Wilson paw@dartmouth.edu From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 13:58:37 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA21898 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homer.louisville.edu (homer.louisville.edu [136.165.1.20]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA21888 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rjwate01@localhost) by homer.louisville.edu (8.8.4/8.7.3) id QAA20162; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:55:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970729165510.61996@homer.louisville.edu> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:55:10 -0400 From: Luc To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Dressing for interviews... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.68 X-Operating-System: HP-UX B.10.10 E X-Disclaimer: I can't help it that you are a figment of my reality. Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk When I received instruction on how to prepare and survive interviews the rule of thumb I was told is to dress one stage above what you expect to wear daily at the job you are applying to get. I have also found doing a little research into the company you are applying with does wonders. Find out what their dress code is and the particular opinions on various things such as over dressing, special interests typically held, etc. This way you know ahead of time weither that particular company will be the one for you. Also you avoid the embarrassment/ instant rejection from over or under dressing for the interview. Every interviewer/companies view on dress varies depending on the mentality maintained in the work place. Suit and tie is a must have at alot of the major companies in my city and until about five years ago they would turn away people with hair that came anywhere near their collar. While some places (like the university I work at) long hair is common and accept as long as well kept. Also the dress code is pretty laxed with the system administrators wearing slacks and t-shirts or dress shirts and only donning their suits when there is going to be a major meeting with management of outside parties. So really dress and appearance at job interviews hinges on the views of the company you are applying for and just how much you are willing to change your appearance and dress to get the job. I don't have to wear a suit at my job but I do keep around one for high level interviews and special occasions. -- Bob Waters IT-SCC Lab Supervisor Webmaster for WLCV Radio -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS/IT d-(+) s+:+>+: a-->? c+++(++++)>$ ULH++(+++)>$ P++>$ L+++>$ E----@ W++>$ N+(++) o? K? w(+) O? M- V PS+() PE+() Y+ PGP+ t+(*) 5+ X+ R+() tv-(--) b+>+++ DI++ !D G++ e(*) h-() r--(---) y+** ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ PGP Fingerprint : 66 B8 F8 36 F0 7C 68 86 7E FE 88 15 E2 08 15 D5 PGP Public Key : finger me for it. E-Mail : rjwate01@homer.louisville.edu : rjwate01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu : rjwate01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu Homepage : http://www.louisville.edu/~rjwate01/ WLCV Homepage : http://www.louisville.edu/rso/wlcv/ Crimson Souls : ns2.ka.net 6969 (Admin and Coder) Shattered Realms: Not opened to public yet. (Coder) From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 15:17:20 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA25974 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway.tcs.com (tcsi.com [137.134.47.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA25965 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from almd-ms.tcs.com ([137.134.4.21]) by gateway.tcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA04511 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from worf.tcs.com (worf.tcs.com [137.134.4.57]) by almd-ms.tcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA22690 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:13:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerry Carlin Received: (jerry@localhost) by worf.tcs.com (8.6.11/8.6.10) id PAA10596 for sage-members@usenix.ORG; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:13:53 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:13:53 -0700 Message-Id: <199707292213.PAA10596@worf.tcs.com> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview attire Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > From sage-members-owner@usenix.ORG Tue Jul 29 14:50:30 1997 > ... And, as Jurgen pointed out, it's > best to put on "suitable" attire... My 'interview clothes' for my current job was a suit&tie but that was balanced by my hair in a ponytail and two earrings. Two people who could not agree on anyone else before decided I was OK - one on the basis of the suit and the other on the basis of the hair and earrings! So I'd say it is the overall picture that is key. -- Jerry M. Carlin You look for battles in the wrong place. The true test of a warrior is not without - it is within. - Worf From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 15:32:04 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA26820 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maildeliver0.tiac.net (maildeliver0.tiac.net [199.0.65.19]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA26811 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lorien.ajs.com (ajs@[207.60.239.49]) by maildeliver0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with ESMTP id SAA27631; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:28:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ajs@localhost) by lorien.ajs.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA23924; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:13:05 -0400 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:13:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Sherman X-Sender: ajs@lorien Reply-To: Aaron Sherman To: Bill Pugh cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Enough!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Bill Pugh wrote: > Since when has sage-members become a forum on how to get a job, or for the > ego of pedantic interviewers showing off their supposed skills?? > > Send to me the information I require, or remove me from the list. I'm sorry you feel that way, but let's reality check here. Sharing information about how to identify good sysadmins and/or have those skills identified by others would seem to relate directly to reason sage was formed. OTOH, I would hate for there to be a sage member who did not recieve the conference reminders, etc. because they couldn't deal with the traffic on this list. To the powers that be: Should sage-members be a closed group, and a new "sage-topics" or some such be created? That's all I'll say, because I don't want to clog up the list with endless debate about the structure of a mailing list. Perhaps we could all just let the sage wisdom of those who run this list prevail? -AJS From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 15:41:42 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA27596 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tera.bctel.net (tera.bctel.net [204.174.64.252]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA26198 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by tera.bctel.net (8.7.6/8.7.1) id PAA28022 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from espresso(192.197.177.129) by tera.bctel.net via smap (V2.0) id xma028015; Tue, 29 Jul 97 15:14:32 -0700 Received: from mchiu.bctel.net ([192.197.177.135]) by espresso.bctel.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA06204 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mchiu.bctel.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BC9C31.CEB91D60@mchiu.bctel.net>; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:12:19 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC9C31.CEB91D60@mchiu.bctel.net> From: Michael Chiu To: "sage-members@usenix.ORG" Subject: RE: Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:12:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk unsubscribe michael_chiu@bctel.net From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 16:53:05 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA02019 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tannis.bos.cie.cuc.com (mailhost.bos.cie.cuc.com [206.243.224.10]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA01999 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from roanoke.sfo.cie.cuc.com (roanoke.sfo.cie.cuc.com [206.243.231.10]) by tannis.bos.cie.cuc.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA17905; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:49:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jericho.sfo.cie.cuc.com (jericho.sfo.cie.cuc.com [206.243.231.122]) by roanoke.sfo.cie.cuc.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA16667; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from josh@localhost) by jericho.sfo.cie.cuc.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA17538; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707292348.QAA17538@jericho.sfo.cie.cuc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Enough!! In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under Emacs 19.34.1 From: Josh Smith X-Attribution: JBS Organization: CUC Internet Engineering, San Mateo CA USA Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk BP == Bill Pugh BP> Since when has sage-members become a forum on how to get a job, or for the BP> ego of pedantic interviewers showing off their supposed skills?? Since when has sage-members become anything? I've been on the list for a little over two years, and according to my archive, it's seen about a hundred messages in that time (until the current interviewing thread started). I agree that it seems like we've just about exhausted this topic, but if the topic of how sysadmins hire and get hired isn't appropriate for discussion among the members of the sysadmins guild, I don't know what is. BP> Send to me the information I require, or remove me from the list. What information do you require? This particular thread started because a subscriber required information about their resume... If you're looking for information about some other topic (and it's germane to the members of SAGE), by all means ask the sage-members list. No? -- Josh Smith <> CUC International <> Internet Engineering Systems Administrator <> http://www.cuc.com/ <> San Mateo, CA, USA From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 17:43:21 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA04118 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kiowa.wildstar.net (falcon@kiowa.wildstar.net [198.203.196.143]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA04109 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (falcon@localhost) by kiowa.wildstar.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA21326; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:38:51 -0500 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:38:51 -0500 (CDT) From: "R. Wyatt" To: Bill Pugh cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Enough!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk And what information might you require ? The purpose of sage as I know it to be is issues relating to System Administration. Could one of those issue be how to search for for employment. Nowadays Its as important to convey information as it is to know unix inside and out. A lot of these interviwers have given questions on this list that I have seen in my interviews. If you are unhappy with this topic set up killfiles, or unsubscribe from the list. Some of us are finding a lot of use in this list Randy On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Bill Pugh wrote: > Since when has sage-members become a forum on how to get a job, or for the > ego of pedantic interviewers showing off their supposed skills?? > > > Send to me the information I require, or remove me from the list. > > > Bill Pugh > > bpugh@mail.arc.nasa.gov > Logicon/SYRE > NASA Ames Research Center > Moffett Field, CA 94035 > 415.604.0303 > pager: 12-8153 > From sage-members-owner Tue Jul 29 20:26:37 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA12533 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cse.psu.edu (claven.cse.psu.edu [130.203.3.50]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA12524 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jovial.cse.psu.edu (groenvel@jovial.cse.psu.edu [130.203.9.26]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA11016; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:22:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707300322.XAA11016@cse.psu.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 X-uri: X-work-address: Manufacturing Technology - Systems Development Group PO Box 30 The Applied Research Lab State College, PA 16804 X-work-phone: +1 814 863 9896 (Voice) +1 814 863 1183 (Fax) To: "R. Wyatt" cc: Bill Pugh , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Enough!! In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:38:51 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:22:59 EDT From: John D Groenveld Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > And what information might you require ? The purpose of sage as I know >it to be is issues relating to System Administration. Could one of those >issue be how to search for for employment. IMHO the purpose of SAGE and the purpose of SAGE-members mailing list should be different, however the definitive answer is below. Its been interesting to watch this list "degrade" to arguments of what is appropriate like so many other lists and Usenet groups. Perhaps we've been hanging around our users too much lately. John groenvel@cse.psu.edu *** To: groenvel@cse.psu.edu From: majordomo@usenix.org Subject: Majordomo results -- >>>> info sage-members The SAGE-Members@USENIX.ORG mailing list is for discussions of items of interest to SAGE members. Discussions are explicitly encouraged on this mailing list. If you want to keep up with SAGE-related announcements, but don't want to be on a discussion list, you should subscribe to the SAGE-Announce list rather than this list. >>>> From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 01:43:50 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA26071 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eugate.sgi.com (eugate.sgi.com [193.73.159.10]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA26018 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eurohub.neu.sgi.com (eurohub.neu.sgi.com [144.253.128.2]) by eugate.sgi.com (8.8.4/970417-sgi-europehub) via SMTP id KAA20018; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:39:42 +0200 (MDT) env-from (zwicky@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com) Received: from pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com by eurohub.neu.sgi.com via ESMTP (950413.SGI.8.6.12/940406.SGI) id KAA22540; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:39:41 +0200 Received: from localhost by pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/911001.SGI) id KAA07000; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:39:34 +0200 Message-Id: <199707300839.KAA07000@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com> To: Aaron Sherman cc: Bill Pugh , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Enough!! In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:13:03 EDT." Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:39:34 +0200 From: zwicky Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >To the powers that be: Should sage-members be a closed group, and a new >"sage-topics" or some such be created? Just to reinforce what somebody else has already pointed out: SAGE already has two mailing lists for members in general, a discussion list and an an announcements-only list. sage-members is the discussion list. sage-announce is the announcements-only list. It is fundamentally futile to try to control a discussion list very much; a certain number of poorly-hidden elephants are going to insist on wandering in. Elizabeth Zwicky zwicky@usenix.org From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 04:47:40 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA03750 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA03621 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA06379 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:57:27 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id RAA04177; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:29:47 +0600 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:29:46 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: Paul Orr cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions In-Reply-To: <199707291945.MAA12882@norac.sanjose.compass-da.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > I have a vaguely related question. I was told a while back at > an interview or post interview that I failed to get the job because > "you didn't sell yourself". What does that mean exactly? i would suggest that meaning is following :" You didn't show all your good qualities, and didn't hide bad ones" just like, when you sell some thing, you do alot of advertisment before, in general this pharse would mean "you had bad politics while being interviewed".. well, i may mistake, but that's which sence this pharse gives me when i translated it into russian. From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 06:28:49 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA07588 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA07579 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA02683; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08428; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:25:18 -0400 Message-Id: <199707301325.AA08428@world.std.com> Subject: Batch/queueing S/W for Unix To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:25:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk And now for something completely different. :-) I need a package that will do distributed batching/queueing, that is, something to let users run jobs on one or more hosts, starting and ending at various times of the day and night. The package needs to handle load balancing, priorities of multiple queues, classes of hosts, logging -- the whole nine yards. This is central to our business, so we're willing to buy something if a commercial package turns out to be the answer; however, we're willing to use freeware/shareware if it's robust, well-written ('cause I'll be the poor sap who has to maintain it), and runs on Digital Unix and Solaris. Pointers and opinions appreciated. It's probably better to reply directly to me (adamm@menlo.com), and I'll send a summary to the list. Thanx, AdamM From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 06:31:25 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA07681 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate2.boeing.com (mailgate2.boeing.com [199.238.248.100]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA07672 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from splinter.boeing.com by mailgate2.boeing.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA02719; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:27:29 -0700 Received: from rastro by splinter.boeing.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA132938946; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:22:26 -0700 Received: (from uczekaj@localhost) by rastro (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id GAA23757 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:29:56 -0700 From: uczekaj@fifi.ca.boeing.com (Thomas Uczekaj) Message-Id: <199707301329.GAA23757@rastro> Subject: Re: Enough!! To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:29:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: from "Bill Pugh" at Jul 25, 97 06:50:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Ditto. > > Since when has sage-members become a forum on how to get a job, or for the > ego of pedantic interviewers showing off their supposed skills?? > > > Send to me the information I require, or remove me from the list. > > > Bill Pugh > > bpugh@mail.arc.nasa.gov > Logicon/SYRE > NASA Ames Research Center > Moffett Field, CA 94035 > 415.604.0303 > pager: 12-8153 > -- ***************************************************************************** Thomas Uczekaj (206) 662-8011 ___ / __ / ____/ / | / ____/ Information & Support Services / / / / / / /| / / P.O. Box 3707, MS 20-69 ___ / / / ___/ / / | / / Seattle, WA 98124-2207 / / / / / / / / / _/ uczekaj@rastro.ca.boeing.com ______/ _____/ _____/ __/ __/ __/ _____/ ***************************************************************************** From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 07:54:39 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA11038 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from igtc.igtc.com (pmm@igtc.igtc.com [206.86.144.10]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA07132 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pmm@localhost) by igtc.igtc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id SAA04312; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19970729183302.57985@igtc.igtc.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:33:02 -0700 From: "Paul M. Moriarty" To: Aaron Sherman Cc: Bill Pugh , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: sage-announce vs. sage-members [was: Re: Enough!!] References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: ; from Aaron Sherman on Tue, Jul 29, 1997 at 05:13:03PM -0400 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I believe that sage-announce was created for the very purpose you describe below; those who wish only to hear the official pontifications from SAGE/Olympus can subscribe to that list and not this one. I've includes the output of the majordomo "info" command for each group below: >>>> info sage-announce The SAGE-Announce@USENIX.ORG mailing list is for announcements relevant to SAGE members (for instance, conference announcements, SAGE board meeting minutes, copies of SAGE press releases, local group announcements, etc.). It is explicitly NOT a discussion list; discussions should take place on the "SAGE-Members@USENIX.ORG" mailing list. When posting announcements for system administration local groups, please include the location of the meeting in the subject line so that SAGE members who are not interested can delete the message without having to read it. If you want to discuss issues relevant to SAGE, please subscribe to the "SAGE-Members@USENIX.ORG" mailing list. >>>> info sage-members The SAGE-Members@USENIX.ORG mailing list is for discussions of items of interest to SAGE members. Discussions are explicitly encouraged on this mailing list. If you want to keep up with SAGE-related announcements, but don't want to be on a discussion list, you should subscribe to the SAGE-Announce list rather than this list. Aaron Sherman writes: > On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Bill Pugh wrote: > > > Since when has sage-members become a forum on how to get a job, or for the > > ego of pedantic interviewers showing off their supposed skills?? > > > > Send to me the information I require, or remove me from the list. > > I'm sorry you feel that way, but let's reality check here. Sharing > information about how to identify good sysadmins and/or have those > skills identified by others would seem to relate directly to reason sage > was formed. OTOH, I would hate for there to be a sage member who did not > recieve the conference reminders, etc. because they couldn't deal with the > traffic on this list. > > To the powers that be: Should sage-members be a closed group, and a new > "sage-topics" or some such be created? > > That's all I'll say, because I don't want to clog up the list with endless > debate about the structure of a mailing list. Perhaps we could all just > let the sage wisdom of those who run this list prevail? > > -AJS > > From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 08:06:09 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA11552 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apollo.fedworld.gov (apollo.fedworld.gov [192.239.92.203]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA06335 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Dwight.FedWorld.gov ([205.128.148.56]) by apollo.fedworld.gov with SMTP (1.40.112.8/16.2) id AA070817184; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:53:05 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970730125719.00994d38@pop.fedworld.gov> X-Sender: dpeter@pop.fedworld.gov X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:57:19 -0400 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Dwight Petersen Subject: Re: Enough!! Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk well thank you all and especially zwicky & bpugh. I haven't really enjoyed all this discussion. But when I know Randall Scwartz is tuned in, I hesitated unsubscribe. I had thought, if everyone will just keep cool this will die out and I won't have to unsbuscribe just because people want to repeat drivel just to have something to say. I appreciate bpughs comment. After all some of us have current employers for which we are supposed to accomplish a few minor chores in between playing with neat machines that we couldn't afford at home. But now that the hornets nest has been stirred up, I see unsubscription looming as a much more desireable option. I'll give it another day. Dwight Petersen, is a system administrator for FedWorld, at the National Technical Information Service. In other words, I'm from the government, pleeease let me help you. From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 09:00:45 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA14307 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clegg. (clegg.rmi.net [166.93.203.191]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA14297 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clegg by clegg. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA06411; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:56:32 -0600 Message-Id: <199707301556.JAA06411@clegg.> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 From: "John D. Clark" To: rheaton@bayarea.net Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:27:18 PDT." <199707292027.NAA23520@admin1.at.tandem.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:56:32 -0600 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:27:18 PDT, Rick Heaton writes: > > The interview process goes both ways. I agree, Rick. That is an exceptionally important point. You aren't only there to be interviewed; you are also there to interview the company. Is it someplace you'd want to work? I will not accept a job at a company that fails to sell itself to me. A friend drove this home to me before my last interview (THANKS, MIKE!), and I believe it helped me vastly. Far from coming across as cocky, I think this attitude helped me exude an air of confidence and competence. (Hopefully the only air I exuded. ;-) ) - -- John D. Clark Rocky Mountain Internet, Inc. Denver, Colorado Email: jdc@rmi.net IRC: RenBear http://home.quality.net/~jclark -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3 Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBM99kKQxGR2qtPix1AQHUsQf/aIGeTYjMIsbJ8ZN0EPNX0Jc2JXXtw8tU nbS6PWrF174q8+ds3Dkq+nTBTg5N0PMTgTsR+mpg9MuoTkeuY3+G8/YaVzipdW/a 8jmuaqQTxat7CgIqrGyNm6GzYkvCQgfH72GYp4QlMxACVi2Q5SJj1g1wKjSMskX4 3MmsXhXoR7V2lFHNO1uobF/q0OFVaFsxnrEzZGs5OIMfZlUKqJxvxO0CwKCPMRlZ XEHpQDAJzRn5oWuSHiNIH1Vn3on4ybj/ngodFPkOqZSd2fjzGZaK2/Mv0OxoUzlF H4q4zEEmhedV+AU08SPR4CBdVwMka4fmewYJGY9X3KFDnqxOo8+oGQ== =v2vM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 11:26:37 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA21034 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unet.net.com (unet.net.com [134.56.1.48]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA21007 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic.net.com by unet.net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA07166; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:22:28 -0700 Received: from shakespeare.net.com by jurassic.net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA24467; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:22:25 -0700 Received: by shakespeare.net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA08731; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:22:23 -0700 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:22:23 -0700 From: stan@net.com (Stan Heller) Message-Id: <199707301822.LAA08731@shakespeare.net.com> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Enough, but some great discussion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-MD5: zEgx1zzT1VkTtvYC1pQ/oA== Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I have to agree this thread has degenerated into who likes 'Wired' and 'what do we wear.' We are all fashion's playthings in this profession :) Until we hit that impasse, the discussion was quite appropriate and pretty informative. This is an issue we discuss at our site quite a bit. The discussion has reinforced some of our practices and opened up others. For that, my thanks to all participants. However, all email threads have the inevitable time-to-die hardwired into them. Might be time to move on. I look forward to the Sage booklet on the subject. =stan ====================================================== Stan Heller (415)780-5351 Engineering Systems Administration Network Equipment Technologies stan@net.com From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 11:34:58 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA21498 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from neuman.interaccess.com (neuman.interaccess.com [207.70.126.130]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21489 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yin.interaccess.com (qmailr@yin.interaccess.com [207.208.45.69]) by neuman.interaccess.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id NAA26076 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:28:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 7485 invoked by uid 358); 30 Jul 1997 18:26:22 -0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:26:22 -0500 (CDT) From: Robert Owen Thomas X-Sender: robt@yin.interaccess.com To: SAGE-Members Subject: SNMPD? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Howdy, all-- Does anyone know of a freeware/shareware/GNUware snmpd? Thanx, --Rob -- Robert Owen Thomas robt@cymru.com From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 11:47:01 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA21949 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA21940 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from odin.corp.sgi.com (odin.corp.sgi.com [192.26.51.194]) by sgi.sgi.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/970507) via ESMTP id LAA07051 for <@external-mail-relay.sgi.com:sage-members@usenix.ORG>; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:43:36 -0700 env-from (jd@jimd.csd.sgi.com) Received: from rock.csd.sgi.com by odin.corp.sgi.com via ESMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1502/951211.SGI) for <@fddi-odin.corp.sgi.com:sage-members@usenix.ORG> id LAA18431; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:43:35 -0700 Received: from jimd.csd.sgi.com by rock.csd.sgi.com via ESMTP (950413.SGI.8.6.12/910805.SGI) for <@rock.csd.sgi.com:sage-members@usenix.ORG> id LAA09133; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:43:34 -0700 Received: from jimd (localhost.csd.sgi.com [127.0.0.1]) by jimd.csd.sgi.com (970321.SGI.8.8.5/970502.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id LAA15145 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33DF8B54.2781@jimd.csd.sgi.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:43:32 -0700 From: Jim Dodd Organization: csd.sgi.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01SGoldC-SGI (X11; I; IRIX 6.5-ALPHA-1273988930 IP22) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk It should be noted that there have been a large number of people unsubscribing to this alias, judging by the miss addreess email, since this discussion started up. This indicates to me that a large number of subscribers are quietly in disagreement with using the mail alias for this discussion. From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 12:14:54 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA23327 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phibes.dartmouth.edu (phibes.dartmouth.edu [129.170.18.45]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA23318 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from paw@localhost) by phibes.dartmouth.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id PAA11753; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:07:40 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:07:40 -0400 From: paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu Message-Id: <199707301907.PAA11753@phibes.dartmouth.edu> To: jd@jimd.csd.sgi.com Subject: Re: Interview questions Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk It should be noted that there have been a large number of people unsubscribing to this alias, judging by the miss addreess email, since this discussion started up. This indicates to me that a large number of subscribers are quietly in disagreement with using the mail alias for this discussion. I'm not sure how well the list has been maintained; I'm not sure that you can make that correlation. In _any_ case, if one chooses not to subscribe to a mailing list that from time to time has short bursts of discussion, that's their business; it's certainly no call for trying to squelch discussion of _any_ topic that subscribers bring up. BTW, we will shortly have a "digest" subscription option to this list. Pat Wilson paw@darmtmouth.edu From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 12:23:13 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA23759 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA23750 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from odin.corp.sgi.com (odin.corp.sgi.com [192.26.51.194]) by sgi.sgi.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/970507) via ESMTP id MAA18069; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:19:48 -0700 env-from (jd@jimd.csd.sgi.com) Received: from rock.csd.sgi.com by odin.corp.sgi.com via ESMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1502/951211.SGI) id MAA28723; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:19:47 -0700 Received: from jimd.csd.sgi.com by rock.csd.sgi.com via ESMTP (950413.SGI.8.6.12/910805.SGI) id MAA15238; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:19:47 -0700 Received: from jimd (localhost.csd.sgi.com [127.0.0.1]) by jimd.csd.sgi.com (970321.SGI.8.8.5/970502.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id MAA15809; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33DF93CF.446B@jimd.csd.sgi.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:19:43 -0700 From: Jim Dodd Organization: csd.sgi.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01SGoldC-SGI (X11; I; IRIX 6.5-ALPHA-1273988930 IP22) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions References: <199707301907.PAA11753@phibes.dartmouth.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk You are missing the point. I was trying to diplomaticly point out that a few users are utilizing the mail alias in a way in which many other users are dissatisfied. I believe that is a few people wish to discuss this issue that can do it directly between themselves via email instead of using the sage alias. The initial question was appropriate in my mind, but I don't want to have unsubscribe to avoid the discussion. I depend on email and don't need the 10 or 20 emails per increase it is generating. Since my email evoked 1 response I will respond to it but to no others. Sorry, I was forced to drop the diplomacy. :-( paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu wrote: > > > It should be noted that there have been a large number of people > unsubscribing to this alias, judging by the miss addreess email, since > this discussion started up. This indicates to me that a large number of > subscribers are quietly in disagreement with using the mail alias for > this discussion. > > I'm not sure how well the list has been maintained; I'm not sure that you > can make that correlation. > > In _any_ case, if one chooses not to subscribe to a mailing list that from > time to time has short bursts of discussion, that's their business; it's > certainly no call for trying to squelch discussion of _any_ topic that > subscribers bring up. > > BTW, we will shortly have a "digest" subscription option to this list. > > Pat Wilson > paw@darmtmouth.edu > From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 13:01:48 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA25330 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA25312 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.25]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id MAA29912; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:57:17 -0700 Received: from shorter.eng.sun.com by Eng.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id MAA27863; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:57:14 -0700 Received: from dna-2.eng.sun.com by shorter.eng.sun.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA01987; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:57:15 -0700 Received: from dna-2 by dna-2.eng.sun.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA03773; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:57:13 -0700 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:57:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Will Nelson Reply-To: Will Nelson Subject: Re: SNMPD? To: sage-members@usenix.org, robt@cymru.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: X2Bi/4ZVb6K2hlTJReubaA== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.1.0 CDE Version 1.1 SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u sparc Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > > Does anyone know of a freeware/shareware/GNUware snmpd? > > Thanx, > --Rob > -- > Robert Owen Thomas > robt@cymru.com > > http://www.sun.com/solstice/products/ent.agents/ Will Nelson Release Engineering JavaSoft wnelson@dna-2.eng.sun.com From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 13:28:51 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA26691 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway.tcs.com (tcsi.com [137.134.47.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA26682 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from almd-ms.tcs.com ([137.134.4.21]) by gateway.tcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA25283; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from worf.tcs.com (worf.tcs.com [137.134.4.57]) by almd-ms.tcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA25878; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:25:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerry Carlin Received: (jerry@localhost) by worf.tcs.com (8.6.11/8.6.10) id NAA14882; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:25:23 -0700 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:25:23 -0700 Message-Id: <199707302025.NAA14882@worf.tcs.com> To: robt@cymru.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: SNMPD? Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk See: ftp.ece.ucdavis.edu:/pub/snmp Jerry Carlin > From sage-members-owner@usenix.ORG Wed Jul 30 13:22:32 1997 > From: Robert Owen Thomas > > Does anyone know of a freeware/shareware/GNUware snmpd? From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 14:06:49 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28317 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.east.saic.com (portal.east.saic.com [198.151.13.15]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA28308 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from willow.c3i.saic.com ([149.8.69.68]) by portal.east.saic.com via smtpd (for usenix.ORG [131.106.3.1]) with SMTP; 30 Jul 1997 21:05:30 UT Received: from raven (raven.c3i.saic.com) by c3i.saic.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08233; Wed, 30 Jul 97 16:59:34 EDT Message-Id: <33DFAB35.7D64@c3i.saic.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:59:33 -0400 From: "Rob M. Manning" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Owen Thomas Cc: SAGE-Members Subject: Re: SNMPD? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Robert Owen Thomas wrote: > > Howdy, all-- > > Does anyone know of a freeware/shareware/GNUware snmpd? > > Thanx, > --Rob > -- > Robert Owen Thomas > robt@cymru.com The Author, the University of California, the University of California at Davis, and the Electrical Engineering department at the University of California at Davis assume no responsibility for damage or loss of system performance as a direct or indirect result of the use of this software. This software is provided "as is" without express or implied warranty. ftp.ece.ucdavis.edu:/pub/snmp/ucd-snmp.tar.gz SUPPORTED ARCHITECTURES It has been known to work on the following architectures: (Please see the FAQ file for more details) hppa1.1-hp-hpux9.05 - known to work under 9.03, 9.01 hppa1.1-hp-hpux10.10 - known to work under 10.01 mips-dec-ultrix4.4 - known to work under 4.2, 4.3 sparc-sun-solaris2.5 - known to work under 2.3, 2.4 sparc-sun-sunos4.1.4 - known to work under 4.1.2, 4.1.3 *-netbsd1.1 - arp table mib disabled - known to work under 1.0, 1.2 alpha-dec-osf3.2 *-freebsd2.? bsdi? -- Robert M. Manning__________________________rmanning@c3i.saic.com Programmer/Analyst________________________OFFICE (410) 571-0403 SAIC_____________________________________FAX (301) 261-8427 From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 14:32:11 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA29632 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragonfly.wolfram.com (root@dragonfly.wolfram.com [140.177.10.12]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA29619 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wopr.wolfram.com (euanf@wopr.wolfram.com [140.177.10.29]) by dragonfly.wolfram.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA27281; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:28:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from euanf@localhost) by wopr.wolfram.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA06720; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:29:13 -0500 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:29:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Euan Fernsler To: Jim Dodd cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions In-Reply-To: <33DF8B54.2781@jimd.csd.sgi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I'm a new member, and I've found the discussion to be (mostly) helpfull. If it should not take place here, then where? Santih, Euan On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Jim Dodd wrote: > It should be noted that there have been a large number of people > unsubscribing to this alias, judging by the miss addreess email, since > this discussion started up. This indicates to me that a large number of > subscribers are quietly in disagreement with using the mail alias for > this discussion. > From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 14:40:19 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA00132 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cygnus.com (cygnus.com [205.180.230.20]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00116 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cleric.cygnus.com. (cleric.cygnus.com [205.180.230.50]) by cygnus.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA28879 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by cleric.cygnus.com. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA08168; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:36:57 -0700 From: mrovner@cygnus.com (Marc David Rovner) Message-Id: <199707302136.OAA08168@cleric.cygnus.com.> Subject: Re: SNMPD? To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:36:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -]-- Begin filtered message -- -] From: Robert Owen Thomas -] Subject: SNMPD? -] -] Howdy, all-- -] -] Does anyone know of a freeware/shareware/GNUware snmpd? Check out , specifically the section "Openly-Available Implementations" under "Implementations of USEC" - Marc David Rovner Systems Administrator Cygnus Solutions From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 14:45:42 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA00442 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utdallas.edu (root@utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00431 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from velcro.utdallas.edu (12721@velcro.utdallas.edu [129.110.3.4]) by utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA10882; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:31:50 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:32:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Amos A Gouaux Reply-To: amos@utdallas.edu To: Jim Dodd cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions In-Reply-To: <33DF8B54.2781@jimd.csd.sgi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Jim Dodd wrote: > It should be noted that there have been a large number of people > unsubscribing to this alias, judging by the miss addreess email, since > this discussion started up. This indicates to me that a large number of > subscribers are quietly in disagreement with using the mail alias for > this discussion. Perhaps they didn't know they were on the list. ;-) Seriously, this list has been dead for so long *I* didn't know I was on it. One list I was on, I think it was sun-managers, had a policy of folks doing a summary. Perhaps that could be done here? While this topic is now getting a bit old, it would seem to me that folks are getting too uptight. After all, this is a "discussion" list. Maybe if we make more use of summaries folks will get along better. :-) Now, I need to get back to dealing with postmaster mail. ;-) amos From sage-members-owner Wed Jul 30 23:23:59 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA22773 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jrl@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA22763 for sage-members; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:23:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Lawson Message-Id: <199707310623.XAA22763@usenix.ORG> Subject: sage-members digest To: sage-members Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:23:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL26 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Dear SAGE Members, We have just added a digest option to the sage-members mailing list in hopes of alleviating complaints about email traffic. This digest option will enable you to retrieve all traffic on this mailing list daily in one file to read/review or nuke as you please. If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to contact diane@usenix.org Sincerely, Diane S. DeMartini In order to subscribe to the digest version of this list: % mail majordomo@usenix.org Subject: subscribe sage-members-digest If you want to subscribe to the digest with a different email address from the one issuing the subscription request, you should: % mail majordomo@usenix.org Subject: subscribe sage-members-digest email-address-to-receive-digest Once you've subscribed to the digest version, you'll probably want to unsubscribe from the non-digest version: % mail majordomo@usenix.org Subject: unsubscribe sage-members Unsubscription may be marginally more complicated if you originally subscribed from a different email address than the one you're currently using. In this case you'll need to use: % mail majordomo@usenix.org Subject: unsubscribe sage-members email-address-used-for-initial-subscription Note that in all cases the subject line is ignored. From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 31 05:01:17 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA07127 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA07114 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:00:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA10567; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:27:49 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id SAA19860; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:00:23 +0600 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:00:22 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: Jim Dodd cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Interview questions In-Reply-To: <33DF8B54.2781@jimd.csd.sgi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > It should be noted that there have been a large number of people > unsubscribing to this alias, judging by the miss addreess email, since > this discussion started up. This indicates to me that a large number of > subscribers are quietly in disagreement with using the mail alias for > this discussion. maybe alot of people found, finally the correct list to subscribe? sage-announce instead of sage-members? From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 31 05:00:52 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA07112 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA07103 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA10561; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:26:45 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id RAA19820; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:59:22 +0600 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:59:21 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: Robert Owen Thomas cc: SAGE-Members Subject: Re: SNMPD? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Does anyone know of a freeware/shareware/GNUware snmpd? maybe smbd? Samba daemon? From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 31 07:48:09 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA14114 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jupiter.superlink.net (root@jupiter.superlink.net [208.200.90.129]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA14105 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plts.org (tal@plts.superlink.net [208.200.84.254]) by jupiter.superlink.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA20666 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:44:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tal@localhost) by plts.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA22726; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:43:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Tom Limoncelli Message-Id: <199707311443.KAA22726@plts.org> Subject: Re: Wired (was: Re: Interview questions) To: jurgen@botz.org (Jurgen Botz) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:43:35 -0400 (EDT) Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: <199707251945.MAA28796@nova.botz.org> from "Jurgen Botz" at Jul 25, 97 12:45:08 pm Content-Type: text Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Jugen, I agree with your reasons for liking Wired magazine. I think that many people I talk to saw the first year or so of issues when the font was unreadable and the colors were rotten. Things are still artistic, but they are readable. I am fond of telling people: Wired isn't cool becuase it is about the internet. ...it's cool because it is about the culture that surrounds the internet. --tal -- Tom Limoncelli tal@plts.org http://mars.superlink.net/user/tal tal@bell-labs.com http://www.bell-labs.com/user/tal We won't know for sure until 1998, but I predict the most annoying thing in 1997 will involve the phrase "mmmmbop". From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 31 07:50:36 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA14155 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jupiter.superlink.net (root@jupiter.superlink.net [208.200.90.129]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA14146 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plts.org (tal@plts.superlink.net [208.200.84.254]) by jupiter.superlink.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA20952 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:47:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tal@localhost) by plts.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA22758 for sage-members@usenix.ORG; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:47:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Tom Limoncelli Message-Id: <199707311447.KAA22758@plts.org> Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:47:51 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <970725085449.ZM8554@inkblot.is.macsch.com> from "Jack Stewart" at Jul 25, 97 08:54:49 am Content-Type: text Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I've noticed that a lot of these questions tend to test technical knowledge that the interviewer has. Why would someone want to hire a clone of yourself? I try to hire someone that is better (and could replace me) or has a hunger for learning (and could replace me after some experience is gained) --tal -- Tom Limoncelli tal@plts.org http://mars.superlink.net/user/tal tal@bell-labs.com http://www.bell-labs.com/user/tal We won't know for sure until 1998, but I predict the most annoying thing in 1997 will involve the phrase "mmmmbop". From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 31 07:56:57 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA14308 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk (sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk [128.86.8.45]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA14299 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from civ.hw.ac.uk (actually host cruncher.civ.hw.ac.uk) by sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk with JANET SMTP (PP); Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:53:29 +0100 Received: from localhost by civ.hw.ac.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17880; Thu, 31 Jul 97 15:53:25 BST Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:53:24 +0100 (BST) From: Iain Rae X-Sender: iainr@cruncher To: Fyodor Yarochkin Cc: Robert Owen Thomas , SAGE-Members Subject: Re: SNMPD? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Fyodor Yarochkin wrote: > > Does anyone know of a freeware/shareware/GNUware snmpd? > > maybe smbd? Samba daemon? > wich platform? I've got an snmpd for solaris 2.x from somewhere, e-mail me directly and I'll see if I can dig it out ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Iain Rae | Tel: 0131 449 5111 Ext 4406 (Day)(but I'm never in)| | Computing Officer. | Any Opinions I am able to form are my own and in no| | Civil & Offshore Eng. | way reflect those of my employers. | | Heriot-Watt University.| Well that's my opinion anyway. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 31 08:26:51 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA15682 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:26:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA15672 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate.mot.com (8.8.5/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with ESMTP id KAA27540 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:22:33 -0500 (CDT) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender einecker@cig.mot.com ) Received: from po_box.cig.mot.com (po_box.cig.mot.com [136.182.15.5]) by pobox.mot.com (8.8.5/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with SMTP id KAA18329 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:22:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199707311522.LAA02255@po_box.cig.mot.com> Received: (einecker@localhost) by buckhorn (SMI-8.6/SCERG-1.12_Solaris) id IAA09877; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:22:17 -0700 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:22:17 -0700 From: Stuart Einecker In-Reply-To: "Rob M. Manning" "Re: SNMPD?" (Jul 30, 4:59pm) References: <199707310107.SAA21965@point.cig.mot.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: "Rob M. Manning" , Robert Owen Thomas , einecker@cig.mot.com, "Michael F. Lavelle" Subject: Re: SNMPD? Cc: SAGE-Members Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I concur with Rob M. ftp.ece.ucdavis.edu:/pub/snmp/ucd-snmp.tar.gz On Jul 30, 4:59pm, Rob M. Manning wrote: > Subject: Re: SNMPD? > Robert Owen Thomas wrote: > > > > Howdy, all-- > > > > Does anyone know of a freeware/shareware/GNUware snmpd? > > > > Thanx, > > --Rob > > -- > > Robert Owen Thomas > > robt@cymru.com > > The Author, the University of California, the University of > California at Davis, and the Electrical Engineering department at > the University of California at Davis assume no responsibility for > damage or loss of system performance as a direct or indirect result > of the use of this software. This software is provided "as is" > without express or implied warranty. > > ftp.ece.ucdavis.edu:/pub/snmp/ucd-snmp.tar.gz > > SUPPORTED ARCHITECTURES > > It has been known to work on the following architectures: > (Please see the FAQ file for more details) > > hppa1.1-hp-hpux9.05 > - known to work under 9.03, 9.01 > hppa1.1-hp-hpux10.10 > - known to work under 10.01 > mips-dec-ultrix4.4 > - known to work under 4.2, 4.3 > sparc-sun-solaris2.5 > - known to work under 2.3, 2.4 > sparc-sun-sunos4.1.4 > - known to work under 4.1.2, 4.1.3 > *-netbsd1.1 > - arp table mib disabled > - known to work under 1.0, 1.2 > alpha-dec-osf3.2 > *-freebsd2.? > bsdi? > > -- > > > Robert M. Manning__________________________rmanning@c3i.saic.com > Programmer/Analyst________________________OFFICE (410) 571-0403 > SAIC_____________________________________FAX (301) 261-8427 > >-- End of excerpt from Rob M. Manning From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 31 10:38:10 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA22360 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exinis1-1.ms.com (exinis.ms.com [204.254.197.6]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA22351 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by exinis1-1.ms.com (8.8.5/fw v1.22) id NAA00744; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:34:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from samail1.ms.com(144.14.9.149) by exinis1-1.ms.com via smap (V1.3) id sma000647; Thu Jul 31 13:34:12 1997 Received: from lambda.morgan.com (lambda.morgan.com [144.14.15.231]) by samail1.morgan.com (8.8.5/hub v1.50) with ESMTP id NAA15898; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lambda (localhost.morgan.com [127.0.0.1]) by lambda.morgan.com (8.7.5/sendmail.cf.client v1.05) with ESMTP id NAA29894; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707311734.NAA29894@lambda.morgan.com> To: Tom Limoncelli cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question regarding resumes In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:47:51 -0400. <199707311447.KAA22758@plts.org> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:34:11 -0400 From: Steven Jenkins Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >I've noticed that a lot of these questions tend >to test technical knowledge that the interviewer >has. Why would someone want to hire a clone of yourself? >I try to hire someone that is better (and could replace me) >or has a hunger for learning (and could replace me after >some experience is gained) I always ask a question or two that I don't know the complete answer to. For example, I have never used NIS+, and a candidate I interviewed had NIS+ on his resume..so I asked him some basic questions about setting up a tree (eg, can a slave have multiple masters? is there any kind of failover mechanism? how does NIS+ compare with BIND using, say, the Hesiod class? etc). While I didn't know the answers beforehand, I was able to follow his explanation and gauge (somewhat) his level of expertise. I try to always learn something from the people I interview -- and obscure (to me) hardware or OS's almost always prompts a question from me. I find asking those questions helps me see how a candidate might interact with others, as well as gauge technical level. Steven L. Jenkins From sage-members-owner Thu Jul 31 10:47:34 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA22470 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from choctaw.wildstar.net (choctaw.wildstar.net [198.203.196.146]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA22461 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:47:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cherokee.wildstar.net(really [198.203.196.145]) by choctaw.wildstar.net via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:57:44 -0500 (CDT) (Smail-3.2.0.95 1997-May-7 #1 built 1997-May-30) Received: from localhost (falcon@localhost) by cherokee.wildstar.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA10474 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:57:28 -0500 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:57:28 -0500 (CDT) From: "R. Wyatt" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: contacts Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I have been getting udp pinged all night. I have tried or had the admin establish contact with the net.admin. This host may or may not be compromised . tofu.ece.cmu.edu Any Ideas on how to deal with this would be much appreciated. Randy From sage-members-owner Fri Aug 1 01:03:57 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA01286 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA01277 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (root@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA13573; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:28:36 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id NAA31564; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:52:04 +0600 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:52:03 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: Tom Limoncelli cc: Jurgen Botz , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Wired (was: Re: Interview questions) In-Reply-To: <199707311443.KAA22726@plts.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > I agree with your reasons for liking Wired magazine. I think that > many people I talk to saw the first year or so of issues when the > font was unreadable and the colors were rotten. Things are still > artistic, but they are readable. Well, yes.. it is very atristic, with Nice Graphics and stuff, but i wish they have more technical information there, maybe they could organize some kind of tutors there, technical reviews and stuff, here, in russia, we have the Computer Press zine( and recently we got another one, called Internet), even though it is not that big, and is not of that good quality, it has more useful info, i wonder if there are kind of such zines over there > I am fond of telling people: > > Wired isn't cool becuase it is about the internet. > ...it's cool because it is about the culture that surrounds the internet. well, i think it is the latter.. about culture.. but it is mostly for Joe Users on my mind, very few things there you can learn, and alot of things for amusement:).. Not Good:) -Fyodor GCS/GCC/GIT/GMU/d---/s:/a--/C++++/L++/U+++/P++/E/W++/N-/o/K-/W---/O-/M--/ V-/PS--/PE-/Y++/PGP++/t/5-/X++/R/tv/h++/D--/G/e/h!/r%/z? (Geek-3.1) From sage-members-owner Mon Aug 4 09:23:42 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA28926 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28892 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA26517; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28893; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:20:05 -0400 Message-Id: <199708041620.AA28893@world.std.com> Subject: Batch/queueing S/W for Unix -- SUMMARY To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:20:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In keeping with USENET tradition, here's the summary of responses to my query on batch/queueing software: 1) I got pointers to lots of packages; I've included a list of URLs at the end of this message. 2) Folks had various things to say about the different packages: One person said LSF (Load Sharing Facility) worked well on platforms like Solaris, but had lots of bugs on Linux; another person recommended LSF over LoadLeveler; one person reported that he was using Autosys to handle 75,000+ jobs each night; finally, there was one strong recommendation was to stay away from LoadBalancer from Unison. 3) Of all the packages suggested, it seems like LSF got the most positive (and no negative) votes. 4) Thanks (in no particular order) to the following people for responding: paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu (Pat Wilson) William L. Larson (Bill) Patricia Parseghian kira@lsil.com (Kira Siegel) Michael Thompson Xev Gittler Dwight Petersen paul.joslin@sdrc.com (Paul R. Joslin) Kenneth E. Paul klange@VNET.IBM.COM news@platform.com (News Account) Aaron Sherman John Cooper Michael F. Lavelle Amos A Gouaux ctm@sleepy.ns.cs.boeing.com (chuck malmsten) William L. Larson (Bill) Pat O'Brien Jon Finke stillman Ann Benninger Matt Harrington Ian Holden Michael Zollinger 5) Here are the URLs I got and found: Autosys http://www.platinum.com/products/sysman/asys_ps.htm CODINE: http://www.genias.de/products/codine/Welcome.html http://www.instrumental.com/codine.html Distributed Queueing System http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~pasko/dqs.html JP1/NQSEXEC http://www.hitachi.co.jp/Prod/comp/soft1/open-e/jp1/batch.htm LoadLeveler http://www.austin.ibm.com/software/sp_products/loadlev.html LSF http://www.platform.com/ Maestro http://www.unison.com/marketin/218a_31a.html NetSolve http://www.cs.utk.edu/netsolve/ Network Queueing Environment http://www.cray.com/products/software/nqe/nqe_releases.html#TOP NQS ftp://ftp.shef.ac.uk/pub/uni/projects/nqs/README Portable Batch System http://science.nas.nasa.gov/Software/PBS/ Prospero http://nii-server.isi.edu/gost-group/products/prm/ PUCC NCSS for PBS http://www-rcd.cc.purdue.edu/~af5/pbs_ncss.html QBATCH http://gatekeeper.dec.com/pub/usenet/comp.sources.misc/volume25/QBATCH/ QMASTER http://www.qmaster.com/ POINTERS: http://hepwww.ph.qmw.ac.uk/~mcnab/QueShed.html http://www.cmpharm.ucsf.edu/~srp/batch/systems.html Again, thanks to everyone. AdamM From sage-members-owner Mon Aug 4 12:02:15 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA10187 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pathfinder.com (relay2.pathfinder.com [204.71.242.22]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10177 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frodo.dev.pathfinder.com.pathfinder.com by pathfinder.com (8.7.3/SMI-SVR4) id OAA21123; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:58:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by frodo.dev.pathfinder.com.pathfinder.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA09953; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:58:16 -0400 From: larsenc@pathfinder.com (Cliff Larsen (Pathfinder)) Message-Id: <199708041858.OAA09953@frodo.dev.pathfinder.com.pathfinder.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:58:15 -0400 (EDT) To: adamm@menlo.com Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Batch/queueing S/W for Unix In-Reply-To: <199707301325.AA08428@world.std.com> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3.1-961104-sol Time Inc., New Media Pathfinder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Adam, Try Autosys by Platinum. We use it to manage the scheduling of production jobs. CDL "Adam S. Moskowitz" wrote on Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:25:17 -0400 (EDT): > And now for something completely different. :-) > > I need a package that will do distributed batching/queueing, that is, > something to let users run jobs on one or more hosts, starting and > ending at various times of the day and night. The package needs to > handle load balancing, priorities of multiple queues, classes of hosts, > logging -- the whole nine yards. > > This is central to our business, so we're willing to buy something if a > commercial package turns out to be the answer; however, we're willing to > use freeware/shareware if it's robust, well-written ('cause I'll be the > poor sap who has to maintain it), and runs on Digital Unix and Solaris. > > Pointers and opinions appreciated. It's probably better to reply > directly to me (adamm@menlo.com), and I'll send a summary to the list. > > Thanx, > AdamM +-----------------------------------------------------------+ | Cliff Larsen | Systems Administrator | | cdl@pathfinder.com | Time Inc., New Media | | cdl@alum.mit.edu | | +-----------------------------------------------------------+ The man who follows the crowd will usually get no further than the crowd. The man who walks alone is likely to find himself in places no one has ever been. -- Alan Ashley-Pitt From sage-members-owner Mon Aug 4 20:26:42 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA08331 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peak.org (root@PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA08322 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (sechrest@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peak.org (8.8.5/8.6.7) with ESMTP id UAA23251 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708050324.UAA23251@peak.org> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Finals Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 20:24:00 -0700 From: (John Sechrest) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hello, I am teaching a course this summer on Unix System Administration (OSU CS312). It is often a fun course that has a combination of book learning, questions and hands on projects. As a part of my courses, I have the students group up into teams and go to a K12 school and "do something" for the school. This year we have 4 teams working on 3 different schools to try to get some feature up and going. The course material (at least an outline) can be seen at http://iq.orst.edu/sysadm/summer97 I am about to write my final exam for the class. I have run quizes online this term, using a tool called Quest writer that we have been working on at OSU. I plan to do the final the same way. If you look at http://iq.orst.edu/sysadm/summer97/sample.quiz.html http://iq.orst.edu/sysadm/summer97/sample.midterm.html http://iq.orst.edu/sysadm/summer97/sample.final.html You can see the types of questions that I have asked in the past. If you have an itch to look at the questions and offer suggestions of questions, I will certainly take a look at them. And nothing else, I will share them with the class as final fodder. I think this course offers a real chance for people to learn system administration by doing, but at the same time by learning the basics in a structured manner. Any comments you have about the course would be most welcome. ----- John Sechrest . Helping people use CEO PEAK - . computers and the Internet Public Electronic . more effectively Access to Knowledge,Inc . 850 SW 15th Street . Internet: sechrest@peak.org Corvallis Oregon 97331 . (541) 754-7325 . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest From sage-members-owner Tue Aug 5 15:05:24 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA07326 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (mailhost1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA07317 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garm (garm.mbt.washington.edu [128.95.231.73]) by mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.07) with SMTP id PAA23918 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:01:57 -0700 Message-ID: <33E7A320.66D0@u.washington.edu> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 15:03:12 -0700 From: Leeland Artra Reply-To: leeland@u.washington.edu Organization: CompBio MBT UW X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Is DHCP a hazard or a blessing? Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3ED922BE3E7A" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3ED922BE3E7A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, I have been examining the specifications of DHCP (rfc1531 which has been superseded by rfc1541). After some thought on the subject I consider that it might provide some serious security problems or possibly liability problems for corporations and institutions using it. The primary feature of DHCP is automatic distribution of all the needed internal network configuration for operations. It also dynamically assigns an available IP address to any host that requests an id from a possibly specified (default: any location, on the systems I have seen) subset of locations. To me this shows that anyone with limited access to just an active network port can instantly become an internal host with all the access rights that might entail. Admittedly this could be done simply by doing a little net sniffing. But, I believe, using IP spoofing, that a DHCP server could be easily tricked into handing off all the internal data to an external host. I'm asking for your (preferably informed) opinions on DHCP. If possible I'd like to arrange for a highly authoritative speaker to give a presentation on DHCP (including the advantages and possible hazards) to the Seattle SAGE Group. We can provide honorariums, travel, etc. I am hoping that someone will suggest a possible speaker (including yourself if you like). The RFCs can be located at: http://sunsite.auc.dk/RFC/rfc/rfc1531.html http://sunsite.auc.dk/RFC/rfc/rfc1541.html Thank you very much for your time. Cheers, Leeland -- //Leeland Artra University of Washington //Senior Systems Administrator Box 357730 Rm. K343 //Dept of Molecular Biotechnology Seattle, Washington 98195-7730 //mailto:leeland@u.washington.edu phone:206.616.7233 fax:206.685.7301 --------------3ED922BE3E7A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="attachment" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="attachment" The following is a PGP digitally signed copy of this message. -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: 2.6.2 owGNVc+LHEUUTgwmSyCHBIwen4gmC7M9Mzs7O5khqDu7m80SA0s2MQEjWtP9eroy 3VVtVfXMTjBHE9RDUMxBVMQfQRAlEQ9iTEDUP8CLwVwEQdAQc9CDaNToq+qeSUQE m2WWqa766nvf9703z647s+HOdbXv33xve3DqyIXHXrq+fv3NvRtu7m5s//STc5fh xNHSyTeevLHrgY8W3724snniq9e+KX937uK1I5e/OLn17OTZ+5975sS9Pxw//9dn Z75++dFHtl1tP3Tox3dOv/Xr1JUXn77nz6sfvP3K1uvV5MzaE+c/vOPL+7aJjwc/ fX6pfGX2fOWFu397/ujPv1zfOLG4oTXxx+uP/37qdHTXt7M3Nr56qfb+pmudTbFR nlkz6+hZUoiGi64ubdmymf6WIWJ9hA6iAFxjCRf0EkyEoFP0ech9ZrgUGmQIC3vn V2CnCv1qvVaFQcT9iE5rd5igdJai0hhgAJ0huG0z1UkP5kKDCrRMkHBl1o0MSJFf kXWOoW9gGXy6ggeoCMZEzAA3kHC7M1WyTy/y4xoVl5mm/36muBnat50YE2KnIJVa 8048JIiYsw6P/7EhpB2+VKlURT1MBMCFNtxk+UKmbeXceHAwQgJJFU+YGkKIzGQK xwKwIABG31lmZEJgPgRcG8U7DsduY3HsyhNoxSAoLkgBwWJaMQOperbckHeznIvj Jkm7nJkHsGwIQ0sIhoIc8QnPVsWovq5jDqzPeMyoMlh2hBRqDUbSqyFEUhtwIip8 KkNt3AkeQKhkAsxWVig1spgM2xlgyLLYtBxELHPXS2OjhtpYFYu0aDJ80jne0Whs yaMT2stjdVCCs5uTWZEc6JwQYUuBMOAmgpgn3NDNzPcL8scybVxxvuF968BILTLN gG+LIL+YMMS8g74NhFsrtHV1O+iR/jk0ASkbpYJDHisUhhQsyM4FRIW4EK5j7Mss pgwjBJat5klqbxzSV5sQRtSNia29BrTgYUirFqmdmRIp1MGYYx9LRaDIIJ1KaTeV ChXyHFGY+6huXYZMc+czZcnvoU0niRJRTi2MDG/lalxywAzLbafevU2Goq7lHeS3 7tnjNmJDmSnYmSoMKWrWfi5oOcFgktJHfe+6XDhyI4Bw1FUUtB0BFd5Dd59STHTR oTKISFFCo36IJHUls+7ZaLEelWck4XTtCqNmRG2Fz/tEFPOECz/OgtHUYUGfHGZd zDt0dD2BROw4U4GetATszlXqS2vD6tzSIiwpmaXUOYfRBWU0NSIpqOEVzxJN4ivK bmznHhrfI6dYQhvS/GbyxY6YPJ6ks866xMGaNVZgVNItxgRlRdUYh8BDK7CTaHLU BMTywJ557SiRw65JbORNi94CPZExaatc1hlNP4Mey3wv6JXpTJnGZ7mYtF5kkvj/ H5gZH3AUmOg5YpS1ISQZjexxFgxPsKA6HyHNbqvNqi+N4ZgvT00BfZbLxSKsDlBo cu5fzyFBFittRy5Ng8NMRySPkSI/jRQuBavFELHtJuzIZIZW7dOWa1CrNxq1ChxI PNhXm6m5gwuYuumyX8Y08WOmoM2lQT8SMpbdIYwyULrtRmjuqjbrUxbMYSTU50a2 dM784cwbjLd6GGQAKYUEW9OVWW+2Ous1pms1CNlavrCr7hFO1QGtLK1AmnWgh8OW W6hWpmfK7bl6uzmzuADVZrNerjTK0xUYqbXfGwu2+7/uf9BB7UP6naFFVPSrI0yO 36hBrQHNOlTbsNCGuRo090C1ArBQhfYiTNPnPOxpw+I8VKowayX7Gw== =cBYD -----END PGP MESSAGE----- --------------3ED922BE3E7A-- From sage-members-owner Tue Aug 5 16:07:21 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA11162 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (mailhost1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA11153 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garm (garm.mbt.washington.edu [128.95.231.73]) by mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.07) with SMTP id QAA25815; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:03:05 -0700 Message-ID: <33E7B174.7838@u.washington.edu> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 16:04:20 -0700 From: Leeland Artra Reply-To: leeland@u.washington.edu Organization: CompBio MBT UW X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hal Pomeranz CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Is DHCP a hazard or a blessing? References: <199708052237.PAA01725@netcom7.netcom.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3F7E318212CA" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3F7E318212CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, Hal Pomeranz wrote: > You want to run DHCP behind a strong firewall that prevents address > spoofing. They way most sites run their DNS, there are easier ways > of determining internal host information than spoofing a site's DHCP > server. > > DHCP is a real blessing if you have many PCs on your networks. Your reply suggests that you consider it a dangerous item to have running. Yet, too valuable to live without. Why would it be such a blessing? With randomly assigned IP addresses you have limited means to trace a problem to a particular host. I know you can keep a record of the MAC address. Yet, you would have to have a database of MAC-ID <-> User / host / port. This would seem to be as much a hassle as maintaining a DNS system with easier look up. Then the ARP logs could be used to determine if an IP spoof attack was under way or occurred. Would you be willing to provide more details as to why you think it should only be used behind a real good firewall (hard and crunchy on the outside, soft and chewy on the inside comes to mind here)? Could I also tempt you into providing more details on its benefits? Thank you very much for all your valuable time. Cheers, Leeland -- //Leeland Artra University of Washington //Senior Systems Administrator Box 357730 Rm. K343 //Dept of Molecular Biotechnology Seattle, Washington 98195-7730 //mailto:leeland@u.washington.edu phone:206.616.7233 fax:206.685.7301 --------------3F7E318212CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="attachment" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="attachment" The following is a PGP digitally signed copy of this message. -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: 2.6.2 owF1VEuIXEUUnTEfMRI/KBGFwF0IJjLTn+n0THqMidPd+Qwh2mQSxhiUVL93u9+z 36tqq+rNSwcDko24cpNs/AR1ISq4cBES3QQ3IrgQIS6zGPCzMREX7qJ4ql73BBEf M83r6qpzzz3n3Hpr6tKmLVO1X7+Id4RvvvjV6Yu3pqfzmU1/l7dd3nrisx0Xv9v5 7o2rr99+5pur55648/7TN/Iv7ZnND958dt999dUfdl/74OPTDz859/XMOr/y1871 9etbfo62Xv79hc0XXnrv+5l88yffRnc+rbzx4/qrd87sun5ZfzT1yMvbgwvH/5h+ 57XHRrfP999+oJZ3H/rpw3v45q37H53+7cLjnSt/nvzl0vnPt17p3ptYXbJn7RSe w5rZxrJvZrZv34a/IyKhjkpZC3mOcq0sL2J1P51SGeVCWrKKdCapfaTVoS5HsQxJ kLFayT71Ys25SBKykbA01LzG0hoSYajZGI9jhkr1UK9EdCLiETBHlCpjycSWjYe2 Ecea2s+vzLhXzSTwz8LErN32Akf1KGTLOo0l0CiWeJfgHjmsWPaUToWNlUMTcqOq o4o6TxnPvyDEeo11yb/7D99ZDNakGYDdBNR9iR6NIEIk1phSIUfUaRlCASxqkmxz pQemVKh4yq1pHiYjMlm/zwYqeE0cQqCkiUM0E1sUCYXss1aZwVdOnbyuAjAghfRC nWILJZSiNZFkAnzcpiQGjTy2kcrsuOhqBDlVloQOuMuoHEQoMGngAK1iO8HYUKUg JrDalxzScmfiEAwAQUD5JpM4BaWQUhbSuJpWiwBuwFgFUM8VX4S2cZAlQnvtS7RM A6nyMVAA8QfMQ69moHTojIOrdGypNak67tBJU9D31cdCkABKKKzoCsPuMA7OLrdp 3+x+OgnvqFxYXqah0tanCt4VOIYLktBCuNSkhSAROk/cEmxEbkSRIOESR2ZknAtO 2EnkEqUGlA1LLq8+nEBaOt7Bet/AS1cIBTIDpVBrEkp2eUHzENeHj4S1IhggwIYy GRZRBpLSpIIg05rDiY0e0qnRdQ4niWMHZKi+hthgWjAOKCPixLgm8FMO590Bi3Ec wH2gmMjDKAmnJ/Q2xtUHu69UeHdid0UC5iAbFCB4AQDVpFkkzOV1hozq2WJLxPlk A4bN/QolUvZkUlfDze3uA0VDLc9kmURikCFOh8UYQPpJU67Df7UF6Bgj02XJPbyM gU5glAf+LCYW14azE4NOjr+fwrsDEqc8lrMVMWt/u60EytqYi+XZWTft5fJ4kVZy lgZl//OclJg0jVtj5NK3Kgw07Fsli9MsYxBY8akxtBS66wiXobBYdU9TnaVafWGh VqHjaYmO1vbU/ME2QwWXZpVwMTzNGHdtEEmFXI2IVhiBSSD63YrU2Ftt1GcdmMdA ehOrFk3B/LmslG9sLXGYEQ0jJXlxrjJfmq/OlxbmajXqibPFwt56CThVD9Q53KFh 1sWgjhb9QrUyt6fcXKo3G3sOtqnaaNTLlYXyXIUmah0rbQi27//q7/dQR3HHu5uX 9VDD8QJ/oUa1BWrUqdqkdpOWatQ4RNUKUbtKzYM0h88WHWrSwRZVqjTvJPsH =P2De -----END PGP MESSAGE----- --------------3F7E318212CA-- From sage-members-owner Wed Aug 6 01:14:16 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA10298 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marid.phs.com (marid.phs.com [149.111.34.33]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA10278 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by marid.phs.com id AA15775; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:10:27 -0700 Received: from raven.phs.com by shaitan.phs.com (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/06Aug96-1111AM) id AA01528; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:10:26 -0700 Received: from localhost by raven.phs.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/01Jul97-1052PM) id AA08667; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:10:01 -0700 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:10:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hatz To: Leeland Artra Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Is DHCP a hazard or a blessing? In-Reply-To: <33E7A320.66D0@u.washington.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk >To me this shows that anyone with limited access to just an active >network port can instantly become an internal host with all the access >rights that might entail. --------------- FLAME ON ------------------------- My $.02 worth is that DHCP is for numb nuts who can't manage static IP address space. Huh huh huh huh. Uhhhh here is like your address or something 202.123.11.255 (One of our Network Rocket Scientists DID give a x.x.x.255 address to a guy I work with. Hmmmmmm hmmmmm yeah that number rules. I gave it out 2 weeks ago. ----------------- FLAME OFF ----------------- I think its great for laptops and roaming users. My simple rule of thumb (If I were Network King): If you don't take your PC with you or home at night, you should have a static address. PERIOD. Most firewall vendors I have seen, have trouble with coherent logging of DHCP traffic. It will log all the traffic all right, but marrying up who was 202.123.212.3 at 13:03 today is a tremendous pain in the ass. You usually wind up with another layer in the middle that does all of your logging. LAME. Not to mention the joys of chasing down ill-behaved PCs on the network. Gee, I wonder if the network guys can't manage IP addresses, how much more successful will they be hunting down MAC addresses???? Mike ========== Ok ramblers, lets get rambling... From sage-members-owner Wed Aug 6 07:55:49 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA01980 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA01970 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sideshow.redhat.com by relay1.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: sideshow.redhat.com [207.175.42.5]) id QQdblb19897; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:52:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sideshow.redhat.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sideshow.redhat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01078; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:26:36 -0400 Message-Id: <199708061426.KAA01078@sideshow.redhat.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0epsilon 1/27/96 BA To: leeland@u.washington.edu cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Is DHCP a hazard or a blessing? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 Aug 1997 15:03:12 PDT." <33E7A320.66D0@u.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 10:26:35 -0400 From: Bryan Andregg Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 05 Aug 1997 15:03:12 -0700, Leeland Artra wrote: >Greetings, > >I have been examining the specifications of DHCP (rfc1531 which has been >superseded by rfc1541). After some thought on the subject I consider >that it might provide some serious security problems or possibly >liability problems for corporations and institutions using it. The >primary feature of DHCP is automatic distribution of all the needed >internal network configuration for operations. It also dynamically >assigns an available IP address to any host that requests an id from a >possibly specified (default: any location, on the systems I have seen) >subset of locations. > >To me this shows that anyone with limited access to just an active >network port can instantly become an internal host with all the access >rights that might entail. > If your internal security is such an issue then I cannot imagine that you would leave active network jacks that aren't in use. Also, it shouldn't be that hard to track down someone replacing an active network connection with a new one (Read: unplugging a workstation and plugging in their laptop) if you have your switches and routers setup properly. >Admittedly this could be done simply by doing a little net sniffing. >But, I believe, using IP spoofing, that a DHCP server could be easily >tricked into handing off all the internal data to an external host. > Your firewalls and routers should be configured to prevent IP spoofing both from internal and external hosts. DHCP and its backwater cousin BOOTP are intended for use (in my opinion) on dynamic networks or on networks where the majority of users wouldn't know an IP address from their drivers license number. It has nothing to do with how well the network administrator can manage a collection of static IP addresses but rather how much time the netadmin can spend in reconfiguring networking or setting up new workstations. To also touch on the subject of 2 computers winding up with the same IP, either through neglect, mismanagement or operator error: it happens with both dynamically allocated address and statically allocated addresses. I think the real person you should have come and talk to your local would be someone with experience in dealing with the policies involved with using a dynamic protocol. The setup and maintenance of a BOOTP or DHCP server is not difficult, but convincing your users, your management and your paranoids that they can be useful and secure is a chore sometimes. -- Bryan C. Andregg * * Red Hat Software "Sure, to you she's just a set of intercorrelated coordinates. What fun is that?" -- 'Experiment Zero', Man or Astroman? "Donnie were much more 'user-friendly'. May be you selective about friends:-)" -- Levente Farkas From sage-members-owner Wed Aug 6 08:12:26 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA02878 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trojan.pcp.ca ([162.139.13.50]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA02862 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by trojan.pcp.ca; id IAA16813; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:20:11 -0600 Message-Id: <199708061420.IAA16813@trojan.pcp.ca> Received: from unknown(162.139.71.7) by trojan.pcp.ca via smap (3.2) id xma016790; Wed, 6 Aug 97 08:19:58 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 2.0b5) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Scott Truswell Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 08:16:41 -0600 To: sage-members@usenix.org, SystemSupport@pcp.ca Subject: Is DHCP a hazard or a blessing? Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We use DHCP, although we have reservations for IP addresses - this would eliminate most of the hassles with tracking down which host was which ip, when - no? Can anyone explain how a DHCP server could be IP-Spoofed? I thought the whole process started at the mac address which must be registered with the DHCP server in the first place, removing the possiblility of an imposter? Begin forwarded message: Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 15:03:12 -0700 From: Leeland Artra Reply-To: leeland@u.washington.edu Organization: CompBio MBT UW X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Is DHCP a hazard or a blessing? Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Greetings, I have been examining the specifications of DHCP (rfc1531 which has been superseded by rfc1541). After some thought on the subject I consider that it might provide some serious security problems or possibly liability problems for corporations and institutions using it. The primary feature of DHCP is automatic distribution of all the needed internal network configuration for operations. It also dynamically assigns an available IP address to any host that requests an id from a possibly specified (default: any location, on the systems I have seen) subset of locations. To me this shows that anyone with limited access to just an active network port can instantly become an internal host with all the access rights that might entail. Admittedly this could be done simply by doing a little net sniffing. But, I believe, using IP spoofing, that a DHCP server could be easily tricked into handing off all the internal data to an external host. I'm asking for your (preferably informed) opinions on DHCP. If possible I'd like to arrange for a highly authoritative speaker to give a presentation on DHCP (including the advantages and possible hazards) to the Seattle SAGE Group. We can provide honorariums, travel, etc. I am hoping that someone will suggest a possible speaker (including yourself if you like). The RFCs can be located at: ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.86.220.196] (kmayer.vip.best.com [206.86.220.196]) by proxy3.ba.best.com (8.8.6/8.8.3) with SMTP id KAA11903 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:07:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708061707.KAA11903@proxy3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Is DHCP a hazard or a blessing? Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 10:07:49 -0700 x-sender: kmayer@shell7.ba.best.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Ken Mayer To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On 8/6/97 1:10 AM, Mike Hatz wrote: >>To me this shows that anyone with limited access to just an active >>network port can instantly become an internal host with all the access >>rights that might entail. This is yet another reason not to rely on host addresses for authentication or authorization. >--------------- FLAME ON ------------------------- >My $.02 worth is that DHCP is for numb nuts who can't manage static IP >address space. >----------------- FLAME OFF ----------------- Since I have to work with it, I'll put in that it does have certain advantages. DHCP removes the last bits of one-off configuration for the client workstations on my network. Since most of them are PC's running Win95, it makes it easy for the IS group to yank a bad machine out and drop another one its place without to much fumbling around. >I think its great for laptops and roaming users. Absolutely! >My simple rule of thumb (If I were Network King): >If you don't take your PC with you or home at night, you should have a >static address. PERIOD. Having dynamic addresses is a more efficient use of my very limited IP address space (for me, we pay $ for additional CIDR blocks, YMMV). The biggest problem is when users *hardwire* IP addresses without checking and take an address that is already in use. Then I get a little postal. >Most firewall vendors I have seen, have trouble with coherent logging of >DHCP traffic. It will log all the traffic all right, but marrying up who >was 202.123.212.3 at 13:03 today is a tremendous pain in the ass. You >usually wind up with another layer in the middle that does all of your >logging. LAME. [Back to host-based authentication again] That middle layer should go away. The ISC has an implementation of BIND & DHCP that accepts DHCP information (from a trusted server, that is key, accepting dynamic DNS data from anyone is a bad thing(TM)). When a user creates a machine name, it ends up in the DNS cache. When the lease is released, so is the DNS entry. I haven't seen it work in a large scale environment, so I'm sure that are lots of gotchas still to be resolved. >Not to mention the joys of chasing down ill-behaved PCs >on the network. Gee, I wonder if the network guys can't manage IP >addresses, how much more successful will they be hunting down MAC >addresses???? Machines come and go so quickly. Managing an IP address space is a bookkeeping hassle. Why should every person who wants to plug a generic machine onto a network have to work through yet one more bureaucratic gauntlet. I think it is much better to manage the key systems and let automation do the right thing for the general cases. Hardest of all, the user communities I have dealt with lately have come to expect a network connection much as they expect dial tone. This is the monster that we've created: Ubiquitous networks. It is far from wine and roses. From a protocol point of view, DHCP is a dog. A mangy cur at that. Oh, and the MS Windows 95 client has bugs in it, so every server written has to do unnecessary contortions. And when will a multicast version come out? Ken -- Ken Mayer In dwelling, live close to the ground. Global Village Idiot In thinking, keep to the simple. 408/354.6078 (voice) In conflict, be fair and generous. 408/354.2958 (fax) In governing, don't try to control. 408/488.2896 (leash/pager) In work, do what you enjoy. *** kmayer@bitwrangler.com *** In family life, be completely present. [\] Voulez-vous plongez avec moi? -- Tao Te Ching From sage-members-owner Wed Aug 6 11:26:03 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA15746 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fw1.tek.com (fw1.tek.com [192.65.17.16]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA15719 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fw1.tek.com (root@localhost) by fw1.tek.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA23397 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orca.wv.tek.com (orca.wv.tek.com [134.62.5.17]) by fw1.tek.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA23389 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pogo.wv.tek.com by orca.wv.tek.com (4.1/8.2) id AA22771; Wed, 6 Aug 97 11:21:48 PDT Received: from catenary.WV.TEK.COM by pogo.wv.tek.com (4.1/8.0) id AA27260; Wed, 6 Aug 97 11:22:29 PDT Received: by catenary.WV.TEK.COM (4.1/8.2) id AA03998; Wed, 6 Aug 97 11:22:28 PDT Message-Id: <9708061822.AA03998@catenary.WV.TEK.COM> To: Bryan Andregg Cc: leeland@u.washington.edu, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Is DHCP a hazard or a blessing? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 06 Aug 1997 10:26:35 EDT." <199708061426.KAA01078@sideshow.redhat.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:22:28 PDT From: Sean Kamath Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Allow me to join in the fray: [In a message on Wed, 06 Aug 1997 10:26:35 EDT, "Bryan Andregg" wrote:] >On Tue, 05 Aug 1997 15:03:12 -0700, Leeland Artra wrote: >>I have been examining the specifications of DHCP (rfc1531 which has been >>superseded by rfc1541). After some thought on the subject I consider >>that it might provide some serious security problems or possibly >>liability problems for corporations and institutions using it. >> >DHCP and its backwater cousin BOOTP are intended for use (in my opinion) on >dynamic networks or on networks where the majority of users wouldn't know an >IP address from their drivers license number. It has nothing to do with how >well the network administrator can manage a collection of static IP addresses >but rather how much time the netadmin can spend in reconfiguring networking or >setting up new workstations. > >To also touch on the subject of 2 computers winding up with the same IP, >either through neglect, mismanagement or operator error: it happens with both >dynamically allocated address and statically allocated addresses. The major problem we've been having here are NFS mounts. Because we export to hosts, and not universally, we have to have some control over hostnames. Well, since Corporate does not yet have in place any dynamic DNS allocation scheme, and when it does it's questionable how it will work with static allocations, we end up with all the PC's and Mac's as totally unregistered IP address. Ain't that great. And if we "preallocate" IP address (dhcp1, dhcp2...), well, what machine did we NFS export this directory to anyway? As for the topic of who DHCP is aimed at: Novice Users or Novice Admins, well, does it matter? Lack of experience or knowledge will get you in the end no matter how you do it. And it's a balance: If one is "new" or "naive", then the other must be experienced and knowledgeable. You can be a little bit more of a network admin slacker if you support people that understand some IP basics. DHCP can be a wonderful tool for the well thought out/planned/managed environment. But it also makes it that much easier to screw things up so badly you'll need the network jaws of life. Sean From sage-members-owner Wed Aug 6 11:51:10 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA17205 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sideshow.redhat.com (root@sideshow.redhat.com [207.175.42.5]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA17196 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sideshow.redhat.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sideshow.redhat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA04599; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:47:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199708061847.OAA04599@sideshow.redhat.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0epsilon 1/27/96 BA To: Sean Kamath cc: leeland@u.washington.edu, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Is DHCP a hazard or a blessing? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:22:28 PDT." <9708061822.AA03998@catenary.WV.TEK.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 14:47:27 -0400 From: Bryan Andregg Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:22:28 PDT, Sean Kamath wrote: > >DHCP can be a wonderful tool for the well thought out/planned/managed >environment. But it also makes it that much easier to screw things up >so badly you'll need the network jaws of life. > As are most tools that systems administrators use. Nothing beats a well thought out, planned and managed environment. Tools like DHCP and BOOTP should be used by people who understand them and understand their limitations. In an environment where one has to worry about different security levels on the local machines (machine1 can access server:/secure, machine2 cannot access server:/secure, machine1 and machine2 are on the same subnet in the same office) the costs of implementing DHCP may be well over the costs of static addressing. However even in that environment there are ways to implement a dynamic numbering scheme should it be necessary. The real job, should you find yourself in the position of evaluating dynamic versus static IP assignment, is in determining which will serve you better or what combination will work. This kind of 'evaluation auditing' (auditing before it is in production) is one of the key skills an administrator can have. -- Bryan C. Andregg * * Red Hat Software "Sure, to you she's just a set of intercorrelated coordinates. What fun is that?" -- 'Experiment Zero', Man or Astroman? "Donnie were much more 'user-friendly'. May be you selective about friends:-)" -- Levente Farkas From sage-members-owner Thu Aug 7 04:10:16 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA09022 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:10:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA08988 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA03777 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:11:49 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id RAA19817; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:11:57 +0600 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:11:55 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Is DHCP a hazard or a blessing? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk That's what i was told ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:26:46 -0400 From: Michael Stone To: Fyodor Yarochkin Cc: linux-admin@vger.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Is DHCP a hazard or a blessing? (fwd) Quoting Fyodor Yarochkin (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su): > To me this shows that anyone with limited access to just an active > network port can instantly become an internal host with all the access > rights that might entail. I'm having trouble understanding what the threat is. A malicious person with a laptop? There are far more serious problems than dhcp if you have an untrusted host on your subnet. I'm also confused about what the person is supposed to get. It isn't hard to grab an ip by guessing and arping. > Admittedly this could be done simply by doing a little net sniffing. > But, I believe, using IP spoofing, that a DHCP server could be easily > tricked into handing off all the internal data to an external host. Only if dhcp packets get routed out of your network--not a particularly good idea. -- Michael Stone, Sysadmin, ITRI PGP: key 1024/76556F95 from mit keyserver, mstone@itri.loyola.edu finger, or email with "Subject: get pgp key" From sage-members-owner Thu Aug 7 04:10:24 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA09080 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA09011 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA03783 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:11:58 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id RAA19826; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:12:08 +0600 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:12:07 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Is DHCP a hazard or a blessing? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 11:54:26 -0500 From: Kelly Setzer To: Fyodor Yarochkin Subject: Re: Is DHCP a hazard or a blessing? (fwd) Fyodor Yarochkin (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su) spoke: >Hmm.. I have got such message and if all things are just like this > budd described, it might be the real security prob.. I haven;t >examined those RFC yet tho. >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 15:03:12 -0700 >From: Leeland Artra >To: sage-members@usenix.ORG >Subject: Is DHCP a hazard or a blessing? > >Greetings, > >I have been examining the specifications of DHCP (rfc1531 which has been >superseded by rfc1541). After some thought on the subject I consider >that it might provide some serious security problems or possibly >liability problems for corporations and institutions using it. The >primary feature of DHCP is automatic distribution of all the needed >internal network configuration for operations. It also dynamically >assigns an available IP address to any host that requests an id from a >possibly specified (default: any location, on the systems I have seen) >subset of locations. > >To me this shows that anyone with limited access to just an active >network port can instantly become an internal host with all the access >rights that might entail. > >Admittedly this could be done simply by doing a little net sniffing. >But, I believe, using IP spoofing, that a DHCP server could be easily >tricked into handing off all the internal data to an external host. > >I'm asking for your (preferably informed) opinions on DHCP. > >If possible I'd like to arrange for a highly authoritative speaker to >give a presentation on DHCP (including the advantages and possible >hazards) to the Seattle SAGE Group. We can provide honorariums, travel, >etc. I am hoping that someone will suggest a possible speaker (including >yourself if you like). > >The RFCs can be located at: > http://sunsite.auc.dk/RFC/rfc/rfc1531.html > http://sunsite.auc.dk/RFC/rfc/rfc1541.html > Reading RFC's never tells you the whole story. DHCP can be setup in a safe and secure way, but as always, ease of use, and security are in tension with each other. >Thank you very much for your time. DHCP security isn't all that intersting. You should consider downloading the Merit(?) DHCP package and experimenting with it. Kelly From sage-members-owner Thu Aug 7 06:32:32 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA16038 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 06:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sideshow.redhat.com (root@sideshow.redhat.com [207.175.42.5]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA16029 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 06:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sideshow.redhat.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sideshow.redhat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA09988; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:28:58 -0400 Message-Id: <199708071328.JAA09988@sideshow.redhat.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0epsilon 1/27/96 BA To: Ken Mayer cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Is DHCP a hazard or a blessing? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Aug 1997 10:07:49 PDT." <199708061707.KAA11903@proxy3.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 09:28:58 -0400 From: Bryan Andregg Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 Aug 97 10:07:49 -0700, Ken Mayer wrote: >Having dynamic addresses is a more efficient use of my very limited IP >address space (for me, we pay $ for additional CIDR blocks, YMMV). The >biggest problem is when users *hardwire* IP addresses without checking >and take an address that is already in use. Then I get a little postal. > I find DHCP and BOOTP to be a more efficient use of time (this return than just the efficiency gained in my address space). Using static IP's does not in any way prevent users from hard-wiring the wrong IP. >Machines come and go so quickly. Managing an IP address space is a >bookkeeping hassle. Why should every person who wants to plug a generic >machine onto a network have to work through yet one more bureaucratic >gauntlet. I think it is much better to manage the key systems and let >automation do the right thing for the general cases. Hardest of all, the >user communities I have dealt with lately have come to expect a network >connection much as they expect dial tone. This is the monster that we've >created: Ubiquitous networks. Tell me about it. It seems that every vendor that visits us for a Demo wants network accesses. -- Bryan C. Andregg * * Red Hat Software "Sure, to you she's just a set of intercorrelated coordinates. What fun is that?" -- 'Experiment Zero', Man or Astroman? "Donnie were much more 'user-friendly'. May be you selective about friends:-)" -- Levente Farkas From sage-members-owner Thu Aug 7 13:04:06 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA08972 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.nando.net (storm.nando.net [152.52.2.139]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA08963 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA28184 for ncsa-announce-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:17:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.nando.net: majordomo set sender to owner-ncsa-announce@nando.net using -f Received: from localhost (flanh@localhost) by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA28180 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:17:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:17:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Heather Flanagan Reply-To: Heather Flanagan To: ncsa-announce@nando.net Subject: North Carolina System Administrators (NC*SA) meeting - August 11, 1997 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The next meeting of the North Carolina System Administrators organization (NC*SA) will be Monday, August 11, 1997, at 6pm. Details about the meeting, our technical program and directions to our meeting location are provided in this note. We hope to see you there!! North Carolina System Administration Interest Group Jaguar Component Transaction Server for Sybase Monday, August 11, 1997 Research Triangle Institute Research Triangle Park, NC 6 PM - General Session Abstract: Jaguar Component Transaction Server Everyone's been waiting to do business on the Internet. Real business, that is -- with dynamic content, secure database access, and large-scale transaction processing. So far, true "online transaction processing" (OLTP) has remained limited to the LAN or WAN environment. The promise of transactions over the Internet, the corporate intranet, or extranet -- transactions we refer to as "NetOLTP" -- just hasn't been satisfactorily fulfilled. Jaguar CTS combines the best features of ORBs (Object Request Brokers) and TP monitors with component-based development. Developers receive the RAD capability they need, since Jaguar CTS supports all leading component models, and helps simplify the set up and configuration of transaction-based applications. Jaguar CTS also provides full Internet security, including SSL encryption and authorization and application-level access control lists. Best of all, Jaguar CTS delivers on Sybase's continuing commitment to open, non-proprietary computing. That means you maintain the freedom to leverage your existing hardware Topics: Jaguar Component Transaction Server Online Transaction Processing Presenters: Don Crenshaw, Powersoft Account Manager Don has been in Information Technology for 14 years. He has been with Powersoft for the last 2 years. Previously, he was a contractor using Expert Systems technology in Mainframe and Client Servers environments. Mike Bleistein, Powersoft System Consultant, PowerJ & Jaguar CTS Specialist Mike Bleistein is a System Consultant at Sybase specializing in the Powersoft family of tools products. Specifically, in the last year Mike has focused on the PowerJ, Jaguar CTS, and Power++ tools providing pre-sales and post-sales implementation support to Sybase Inc. customers. Prior to joining Powersoft, Mike had worked in various development and consulting positions ranging from the mainframe CICS/DB2 world to n-tier Client Server and Internet Technologies. Our meetings are free and open to anyone with an interest in the topic of the evening. We will be providing food and drink for the evening. If you have any questions please contact: Amy K. Kreiling SAS Institute Inc. SAS Campus Drive Cary, NC 27513 (919) 677-8000 x5963 kreiling@unx.sas.com ============================== For information about the NC System Administrators group, contact our Majordomo mailing list server. The "ncsa-discussion" mailing list has been created to facilitate discussions of interest to system administrators from the state of North Carolina. Simply send email to "majordomo@nando.net": mail majordomo@nando.net Subject: subscribe ncsa-discussion After subscribing, Majordomo will send you the help file and info file for our mailing list. These files contain instructions for retrieving other files available to the NCSA organization (e.g. the presentation material from past technical programs are available for retrieval via Majordomo!!) ============================== Directions to Research Triangle Institute From I-40 west of RTP (e.g. Chapel Hill): Get onto I-40 heading east. Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham Freeway - North (towards Durham). Stay in right lane. Shift right as soon as possible after merging with traffic coming off I-40 westbound. Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road). At top of exit, turn to the left. (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you are going the wrong direction.) After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From I-40 east of RTP (e.g. Raleigh): Get onto I-40 heading west. Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham Freeway - North (towards Durham). Shift to rightmost lane as soon as possible Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road). At top of exit, turn to the left. (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you are going the wrong direction.) After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From north of RTP (e.g. Durham): Get onto NC-147 - Durham Freeway - south. Exit at the Cornwallis Road exit. At the top of the exit, turn left to cross over the bridge. After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. *********************************************************************** Heather Flanagan Unix SysAdmin Nando.net / A McClatchy New Media Company fax (919)836-2814 flanh@nando.net postmaster@nando.net hostmaster@nando.net From sage-members-owner Fri Aug 8 07:20:53 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA03803 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 07:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.cric.com (post.cric.com [192.138.207.103]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA03794 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 07:20:47 -0700 (PDT) From: adamm@genomecorp.com Received: from bonaire (bonaire.cric.com) by post.genomecorp.com (PMDF V5.1-4 #15827) with SMTP id <0EELMC5CC00FXJ@post.genomecorp.com> for sage-members@usenix.org; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by bonaire (5.65v3.2) id AA04763; Fri, 08 Aug 1997 10:16:53 -0400 Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 10:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CFP: Advanced Topics Workshop at LISA '97 To: sage-members@usenix.org Message-id: <9708081416.AA04763@bonaire> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-type: text Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk If you're planning to go to LISA '97 (also known as the 11th Systems Administration Conference), you might consider attending the Advanced Topics Workshop. The Call for Proposals (taken from the conference brochure) follows. The deadline to submit a position paper is September 1st. For full conference details, please see http://www.usenix.org/events/lisa97/lisa97.html AdamM Systems Administration Workshop (at LISA '97) Tuesday, October 28, 1997 9:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m. Town & Country Hotel San Diego, CA This one-day workshop will focus on the most recent developments in systems administration, including technical, ethical, and "political" issues. Attendance is limited, and is based on acceptance of a position paper. The workshop will be an open forum during which a representative subset of the topics and positions submitted will be discussed. There are no additional fees to attend this workshop, but attendees *must* be registered for the conference or the tutorials. How to Submit ------------- Potential workshop attendees are invited to submit a proposal (in ASCII), of at most three pages, via email to Adam Moskowitz at adamm@genomecorp.com no later than September 1. Proposals should contain a topic for discussion, why the topic is relevant, and a personal position on the topic. Please note that this workshop precludes attending any tutorials on Tuesday (even half-day tutorials). Lunch will be provided. From sage-members-owner Sat Aug 9 08:58:22 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA17434 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 08:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from camel.swcp.com (camel.swcp.com [198.59.115.3]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA17425 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 08:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pcaskey@localhost) by camel.swcp.com (8.8.5/8.8.0) id JAA18712; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:54:53 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:54:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708091554.JAA18712@camel.swcp.com> From: Paul Caskey To: Paul.Orr@compass-da.com CC: sage-members@usenix.org In-reply-to: <199707291945.MAA12882@norac.sanjose.compass-da.com> (message from Paul Orr on Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:45:42 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: Interview questions Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Paul> I have a vaguely related question. I was told a while back at Paul> an interview or post interview that I failed to get the job because Paul> "you didn't sell yourself". What does that mean exactly? They Paul> didn't say. I think I'm qualified but this reason was very unhelpful. Paul> Paul Orr Did you ever get any replies to this? Selling yourself means having a positive attitude, being confident, answering questions with more than a simple "yes" or "no", elaborating, smiling ... presenting an appealing image of yourself (that someone would want to buy!) instead of sitting there like a robot answering questions like "what does grep -v do?" It's having enough confidence in yourself that instead of nervously trying to remember every single thing you've ever learned about UNIX, you turn the Q&A session into a spontaneous, interesting presentation about yourself. (Without babbling or bragging *too* much.) And remember, this is a friendly exchange! Keep it light! And *listen*. I consider a successful interview one in which I end up interviewing the interviewer. We get past the part where I demonstrate that I'm obviously good at what I do, and then I turn it around -- and start asking some questions, myself. How can an employer be convinced I want the job if I don't care enough to ask some questions about the interviewer and the job environment? Stir up some real dialog; it shouldn't be a one-way street. An interview is just a conversation where two (or more) people are trying to get to know each other in 30 minutes or less. The interviewer needs to be skilled enough to glean the necessary information from you without making you feel like an interrogated hostage. But you're the one who wants the job, so it's up to you to go beyond answering the questions, and engage in a real conversation that exposes your personality and shows that you're obviously qualified, so let's get on to finding out whether this job will be mutually beneficial for all parties involved. A "lost" interview, one in which you walk away knowing you didn't get the job, should not be a defeat! If you feel defeated, you didn't do it right, and your attitude in the first place probably set you up to lose. If you don't get the job, it should be because in the course of the discussion, you and the interviewer (who each have the same goal) determined that you wouldn't be happy in that position. You're not a loser for not knowing all the answers. You just have a different skill set than the one they need. Or your personalities just clash. That's not a crime, it's just the way life is! Move on to the next opportunity. See also the section on "PEOPLE" (in Clues about Life) in my Clue Corner: http://www.swcp.com/pcaskey/clue.html http://www.swcp.com/pcaskey/clue-people.html One last thought: The toughest thing for me going into an interview is knowing beforehand what my own parameters are. Am I willing to move? Travel? Just how low a salary would I accept, and under what conditions? On the other hand, what would I be willing to do for a high salary? What are my priorities? I feel stupid not knowing these things once I get in there. (And uneasiness is not something you want to display in an interview.) But sometimes it's tough. I've really enjoyed this discussion on interviews in this mailing list, by the way. I saved all the info from interviewers who volunteered some of their "tricks". My only comment about all the people trying to leave this list now that it suddenly became active is that anyone in here who posts remove requests to the list itself is definitely someone I don't want to hire! :-) ========================================================================= Paul Caskey Useless home page: http://www.swcp.com/pcaskey pcaskey@swcp.com PGP Public Key: 'finger -l pcaskey@swcp.com' ========================================================================= "You're so consumed by your personal vengeance against life, whether it be its inherent cruelties or its mysteries, that everything takes on a warped significance in your megalomaniacal cosmology." "Scully, are you coming on to me?" From sage-members-owner Sun Aug 10 21:45:34 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA26915 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 21:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yorktown.paranet.com (yorktown.paranet.com [199.164.131.34]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA26857 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 21:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yorktown.paranet.com; id XAA04708; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:41:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from farragut.srv.paranet.com(172.16.3.35) by yorktown.paranet.com via smap (V3.1.1) id xma004704; Sun, 10 Aug 97 23:41:13 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (pppsrv05.srv.paranet.com [172.16.3.7]) by farragut.srv.paranet.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA05088 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:41:10 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19970810233956.2d078b1c@farragut.srv.paranet.com> X-Sender: bamorris@farragut.srv.paranet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:39:56 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: "Brad.Morrison" Subject: Re: Interview questions In-Reply-To: <199708091554.JAA18712@camel.swcp.com> References: <199707291945.MAA12882@norac.sanjose.compass-da.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 09:54 AM 8/9/97 -0600, Paul Caskey wrote: >Paul> I have a vaguely related question. I was told a while back at >Paul> an interview or post interview that I failed to get the job because >Paul> "you didn't sell yourself". What does that mean exactly? They >Paul> didn't say. I think I'm qualified but this reason was very unhelpful. > >Paul> Paul Orr >It's having enough confidence in yourself that instead of nervously >trying to remember every single thing you've ever learned about UNIX, >you turn the Q&A session into a spontaneous, interesting presentation >about yourself. (Without babbling or bragging *too* much.) And >remember, this is a friendly exchange! Keep it light! And *listen*. The best guide I've ever seen for this is in a book entitled "Smart Questions". The book is about using (what else?) smart questions to manage your job, people, and your career. One chapter gives priceless advice for interviewing, especially what to say when they say, "Any questions?" I couldn't memorize them, so I wrote them down, and I'm convinced that my reading from my list got me my current job 5.5 years ago (best job I ever had, the last one I plan to have :-). I heard later that my preparedness was what impressed the president of the company. From sage-members-owner Wed Aug 13 15:06:16 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA28632 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chronos.synopsys.com (chronos.synopsys.com [146.225.8.10]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA28592 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atropos.synopsys.com by chronos.synopsys.com with SMTP id AA05943 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:34:27 -0700 Received: from tikal.synopsys.com (tikal.synopsys.com [146.225.66.61]) by atropos.synopsys.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA18165; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:01:12 -0700 Received: from tikal.synopsys.com by tikal.synopsys.com (SMI-8.6/SNPS-Sol2) id PAA20006; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:01:10 -0700 Message-Id: <199708132201.PAA20006@tikal.synopsys.com> To: baylisa@baylisa.org, rem-conf@es.net, sage-members@usenix.org Cc: bigmac@baylisa.org Subject: BayLISA: Upcoming meetings Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:01:09 -0700 From: Bryan McDonald Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The BayLISA group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to systems and network administrators. The meetings are free and open to the public. Please feel free to redistribute this meeting announcement. BayLISA holds monthly meetings on the third Thursday of each month at 7:30 PM PST. We meet at Cisco Building J in San Jose, on Tasman Drive near First street. See www.baylisa.org for more information. The meetings are also broadcast via MBONE. Schedule ======== August 21, 1997: Gigabit Ethernet, Andy Bechtolsheim of Cisco Systems Andy Bechtolsheim left Sun to found Granite Systems, and Granite was bought last year by Cisco Systems. September 18, 1997: Possible topic: LINUX, speaker pending October 15, 1997: Possible topic: Atria Clearcase, speaker pending November 20, 1997: Perl and Java, Larry Wall BayLISA Board elections [Schedule subject to change] For further information on BayLISA, check out our web site: http://www.baylisa.org/ To get further information on the meeting location, you can also ftp it from ftp.baylisa.org:/BayLISA/location For any other information, please send email to: info@baylisa.org If you have any questions, please contact me or the info alias listed above. =============================================================================== Bryan McDonald bigmac@baylisa.org President president@baylisa.org BayLISA http://www.baylisa.org =============================================================================== From sage-members-owner Thu Aug 14 03:01:00 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA07721 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 03:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA07712 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 03:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA07036 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:00:27 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id PAA15601; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:58:54 +0600 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:58:54 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Server Set Up Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hello List, Here we are going to set up some kind of Server which is supposed to be kind of Scientific server to keep and make avaliable from the net information about different Scientific projects. Now we are about to buy hardware/software equipment.. I wonder what else we would need besides getting server, modems, and stuff like this? I was thinking we would need tape or something for back ups, but we haven't ever used such things around, so i just donno, and.. maybe we missed something besides. Another question is what *ix OS is better to use. We are using Linux on our students' server now, but will it be enough secure for the server like that? if not, what is better to use. I would be greateful for any advices and things.. Thank you.. Fyodor From sage-members-owner Thu Aug 14 10:53:39 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA04649 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epx.cis.umn.edu (root@epx.cis.umn.edu [128.101.83.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA04609 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:53:34 -0700 (PDT) From: djb@epx.cis.umn.edu Received: by epx.cis.umn.edu; Thu, 14 Aug 97 12:50:06 -0500 Message-Id: <00133f3454d010769@epx.cis.umn.edu> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 12:50:06 -0500 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: TCSA meeting August 21 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The Twin Cities System Administrators (TCSA) group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to system and network administrators in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota. The meetings are free and open to the public. TCSA meetings are on the third Thursday of each month at 7:00 pm. Next Meeting: August 21, 1997: Network Computers Randy Zarecki from Sun Microsystems will talk about Sun's Network Computer product, the JavaStation. Tentative Meeting Schedule September 18, 1997: Year 2000 Issues October 16, 1997: *** NOTE: we don't have meeting space available for the September meeting. Please send a note to djb@epx.cis.umn.edu if you can help out. For more information on TCSA, check out our web site: http://www.tcsa.org/ To subscribe to the TCSA mailing list (from a Unix system): echo "subscribe tcsa" | mailx majordomo@tcsa.org For any other information, please send email to: info@tcsa.org or contact: Dave Bianchi (612) 644-7843 -- Dave Bianchi Pencom System Administration At: Honeywell CAS-SPO djb@epx.cis.umn.edu djb@psa.pencom.com djb@cfsmo.honeywell.com Home: 612-644-7843 Pager: 612-818-7162 Honeywell: 612-957-4532 From sage-members-owner Thu Aug 14 14:12:20 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16778 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unet.net.com (unet.net.com [134.56.1.48]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA16768 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic.net.com by unet.net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA19002; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:08:21 -0700 Received: from shakespeare.net.com by jurassic.net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA04743; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:08:15 -0700 Received: by shakespeare.net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA29353; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:08:13 -0700 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:08:13 -0700 From: stan@net.com (Stan Heller) Message-Id: <199708142108.OAA29353@shakespeare.net.com> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: The Root Privilege Issue Cc: engadm@net.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-MD5: CfOfqiTIRUrGiOEqU7ylFA== Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Folks, If this is the wrong venue for this question, my apologies. If there is a better place for this question, I will take a re-direct. At our site we are once again engaged with our users in the traditional "but we need root access" issue. We have been trying to roll out OSH as an alternative but we are getting some serious pushback from the development community. We would like to get some feedback from other admins at other sites how they handle this issue. Also some advice on what tools you use to give the users what they need but keep the world safe. If this is not an appropriate discussion topic for this mail group, I can take direct replies. If it is appropriate, I would be interested in the response until we start talking about "Wired." :) =stan ====================================================== Stan Heller (415)780-5351 Engineering Systems Administration Network Equipment Technologies stan@net.com From sage-members-owner Thu Aug 14 15:36:09 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA21794 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peak.org (root@PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21773 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (sechrest@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peak.org (8.8.5/8.6.7) with ESMTP id PAA01721; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708142231.PAA01721@peak.org> To: stan@net.com (Stan Heller) Cc: sage-members@usenix.org, engadm@net.com Subject: Re: The Root Privilege Issue In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:08:13 PDT. <199708142108.OAA29353@shakespeare.net.com> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:31:22 -0700 From: (John Sechrest) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -------- The typical first answer to this is to give them access to sudo for the things that they "really" need to do. But it does not satisfy the desire to do this. The one solution that seems to have helped tremendously at sites I have seen is: a) If you get the root password, then you also get a pager and you are on call for resolving problems for other people using the systems b) If you make a mess, you get to clean it up without other system admin help. stan@net.com (Stan Heller) writes: % Folks, % % If this is the wrong venue for this question, my apologies. If there is a better % place for this question, I will take a re-direct. % % At our site we are once again engaged with our users in the traditional "but we % need root access" issue. We have been trying to roll out OSH as an alternative % but we are getting some serious pushback from the development community. % % We would like to get some feedback from other admins at other sites how they % handle this issue. Also some advice on what tools you use to give the users % what they need but keep the world safe. % % If this is not an appropriate discussion topic for this mail group, I can take % direct replies. If it is appropriate, I would be interested in the response % until we start talking about "Wired." :) % % =stan % % % ====================================================== % Stan Heller (415)780-5351 % Engineering Systems Administration % Network Equipment Technologies stan@net.com ----- John Sechrest . Helping people use PEAK - . computers and the Internet Public Electronic . more effectively Access to Knowledge,Inc . 850 SW 15th Street . Internet: sechrest@peak.org Corvallis Oregon 97331 . (541) 754-7325 . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest From sage-members-owner Thu Aug 14 16:28:38 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA24797 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway.tcs.com (tcsi.com [137.134.47.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24788 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from almd-ms.tcs.com ([137.134.4.21]) by gateway.tcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA28999; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from worf.tcs.com (worf.tcs.com [137.134.4.57]) by almd-ms.tcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA22846; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:25:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerry Carlin Received: (jerry@localhost) by worf.tcs.com (8.6.11/8.6.10) id QAA23376; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:25:07 -0700 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:25:07 -0700 Message-Id: <199708142325.QAA23376@worf.tcs.com> To: sage-members@usenix.org, stan@net.com Subject: Re: The Root Privilege Issue Cc: engadm@net.com Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Funny you should mention this. I'm now working on a talk for Network Security 97 in New Orleans in October about this very topic. Three emails we have received in the past day that are illustrative: "Discontinue installing tripwire on XXX servers without XXX's permission. Please remove any tools or changes to XXX servers that were done in the past without XXX's authorization." "Remove sudo root access to all XXX members. This is in complete violation to our policies. We did not ask nor were we consulted before IS gave full root access to all our servers." (There are a few machines where a group has root access. This email was in response to our starting to cut that back using sudo). "Please remove nosuid mount option for the availablity of /foo/bar tools. The security issue can be raised seperately, however the availability of these tools are mandatory for development operations throughout TCSI." (The third is a response to finding that someone had installed 171 GNU tools including three setuid root ('su' and two others) were installed in a development filesystem. They are claiming that their own version of GNU su, top and sysinfo are absolutely vital to the software development business.) Jerry Carlin > From sage-members-owner@usenix.ORG Thu Aug 14 15:42:09 1997 > From: stan@net.com (Stan Heller) > To: sage-members@usenix.ORG > Subject: The Root Privilege Issue > Cc: engadm@net.com > > Folks, > > If this is the wrong venue for this question, my apologies. If there is a better > place for this question, I will take a re-direct. > > At our site we are once again engaged with our users in the traditional "but we > need root access" issue. We have been trying to roll out OSH as an alternative > but we are getting some serious pushback from the development community. > > We would like to get some feedback from other admins at other sites how they > handle this issue. Also some advice on what tools you use to give the users > what they need but keep the world safe. > > If this is not an appropriate discussion topic for this mail group, I can take > direct replies. If it is appropriate, I would be interested in the response > until we start talking about "Wired." :) > > =stan > ====================================================== > Stan Heller (415)780-5351 > Engineering Systems Administration > Network Equipment Technologies stan@net.com From sage-members-owner Thu Aug 14 16:29:08 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA24861 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utdallas.edu (root@utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24852 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seti.utdallas.edu (seti.utdallas.edu [129.110.3.10]) by utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA14463; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:25:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Steven S Hodo Reply-To: steve@utdallas.edu To: Stan Heller cc: engadm@net.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: The Root Privilege Issue In-Reply-To: <199708142108.OAA29353@shakespeare.net.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:25:35 -0500 (CDT) Priority: NORMAL X-Mailer: Simeon for Solaris Motif Version 4.1.1 Build (12) X-Authentication: none MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This is also a problem for many universities. We are attempting to solve this problem via routers. Workgroups that feel the need for root access is more important than some other central services will be placed on the other side of a router. From there, we'll filter out NFS, rsh, exec, rpc, tftp, etc... Steve Hodo University of Texas at Dallas Unix Systems & Network Coordinator Information Resources steve@utdallas.edu Distributed Computing On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:08:13 -0700 Stan Heller wrote: # Folks, # # If this is the wrong venue for this question, my apologies. If there is a better # place for this question, I will take a re-direct. # # At our site we are once again engaged with our users in the traditional "but we # need root access" issue. We have been trying to roll out OSH as an alternative # but we are getting some serious pushback from the development community. # # We would like to get some feedback from other admins at other sites how they # handle this issue. Also some advice on what tools you use to give the users # what they need but keep the world safe. # # If this is not an appropriate discussion topic for this mail group, I can take # direct replies. If it is appropriate, I would be interested in the response # until we start talking about "Wired." :) # # =stan # # # ====================================================== # Stan Heller (415)780-5351 # Engineering Systems Administration # Network Equipment Technologies stan@net.com From sage-members-owner Thu Aug 14 17:58:20 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28158 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from echo.eos.ncsu.edu (echo.eos.ncsu.edu [152.1.68.33]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28149 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nsj@localhost) by echo.eos.ncsu.edu (8.8.4/EC02Jan97) id AAA16630; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 00:54:48 GMT Message-Id: <199708150054.AAA16630@echo.eos.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: The Root Privilege Issue To: stan@net.com (Stan Heller) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:54:47 -0400 (EDT) Cc: sage-members@usenix.org, engadm@net.com In-Reply-To: <199708142108.OAA29353@shakespeare.net.com> from "Stan Heller" at Aug 14, 97 02:08:13 pm Reply-To: nsj@ncsu.edu From: nsj@ncsu.edu (Nate Johnson) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24/POP] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk %At our site we are once again engaged with our users in the traditional "but we %need root access" issue. We have been trying to roll out OSH as an alternative %but we are getting some serious pushback from the development community. In the environment here at NC State, the general practice is that we will give the root password to a client workstation (or cluster of said workstations, in many cases) with the understanding that he who received the root password may no longer expect receive any administrative help for that (those) workstation(s), beyond our stopping by to diagnose a problem and offer to automatically reinstall the OS kit on the machine, if said problem is local to the machine. There are exceptions, but this is the general rule. This may or may not be practical for a smaller network; we have pre-made install kits for all (but one or two) of the platforms used on campus (and kits for all of the "supported" hardware platforms) and reinstalls are "hands-free" network-based procedures that require little, if any, administrator intervention. As far as helper applications, most faculty and non-systems staff are required to submit a help request to a database for someone in the systems group (anywhere from a part-time assistant, such as myself, to a full-time AFS administrative-type.) In general, sysadmins must "volunteer" for the pager rotation for any given AFS cell in return for the administrative tokens for that cell. Hope that helps, nsj -- Nate Johnson / nsj@ncsu.edu / nsj@eos.ncsu.edu / nsj@FreeBSD.org Project Eos Student Systems Administrator, Engineering Computer Operations North Carolina State University, Raleigh, North Carolina From sage-members-owner Thu Aug 14 18:24:15 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA28863 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cbgw1.lucent.com (cbgw1.lucent.com [192.20.239.133]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA28854 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtgbcs.mt.lucent.com by cbig1.firewall.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id VAA13586; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:11:46 -0400 Received: from mtras1.mt.lucent.com by mtgbcs.mt.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.3 sol2) id VAA02845; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:20:41 -0400 Received: by mtras1.mt.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id VAA02403; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:21:31 -0400 From: "Richard A.Stewart" Message-Id: <9708142121.ZM2401@mtgzfs3.lucent.com> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:21:30 -0400 In-Reply-To: stan@net.com (Stan Heller) "The Root Privilege Issue" (Aug 14, 14:08) References: <199708142108.OAA29353@shakespeare.net.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 29jun95) To: stan@net.com (Stan Heller), engadm@net.com Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: The Root Privilege Issue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Aug 14, 14:08, Stan Heller wrote: ... > At our site we are once again engaged with our users in the traditional > "but we need root access" issue. We have been trying to roll out OSH ... Enjoyed & substantially concur with prior responses .. Some like sudo & SSH: http://www.courtesan.com/courtesan/products/sudo/ http://www.yahoo.com/Computers_and_Internet/Software/Communications_and_Networking/Unix_Utilities/Ssh__Secure_Shell_/ http://www.cs.hut.fi/ssh/ -- I'd previously considered FSA's PowerBroker, etc, which beyond controlling just who can do what, when, from where, with logging *also* has the option of write-only keystroke logging ... along with their own vi, emacs, ... Set it up right and you could set double blind root passwords and lock'em away in a safe. Logging may encourage privileged users & admins to stay on the straight & narrow; it's is also useful for building how-to documentation and Monday morning fire-fighting when the weekend-folk are out of touch/on vacation. FSA is now with McAfee: http://www.mcafee.com/prod/security/security.html Others e.g. Tivoli (now with IBM/GS fna ISSC), have access control facilities but when i'd checked they didn't have (comprehensive) keystroke logging. http://www.tivoli.com/ http://www.axent.com/ System Access Control Lists extensions are probably beyond what your after or need ... although you might consider some lvel of internal firewalls. The signed acceptance of a Privileged User (root) Code of Conduct &/or Appropriate/Acceptable Use Policy may also prove very helpful, especially if you have keystroke, or at least command, logging. Re Ethics & Policy SEE: http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/QltyPages/QltyEtiq.html http://www.usenix.org/sage/publications/publications.html http://www.usenix.org/sage/publications/code_of_ethics.html http://www.ethics.ubc.ca/papers/computer.html http://www.internethics.org/ http://www.anglia.ac.uk/fes/computer/policies.html http://cause-www.colorado.edu/information-resources/ir-library/subjects/\ policies.html policies-ethical.html policies-general.html policy-issues.html end-user-issues.html ethics.html legal-issues.html -ras Richard A Stewart Lucent Technologies, BCS MT/3D441, (732) 957-2782 rs@lucent.com Your mileage may vary http://WWW.MapsOnUs.Com Brent's Standard Disclaimer applies: http://comedy.clari.net/rhf/jokes/87/4487.html From sage-members-owner Fri Aug 15 04:33:04 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA02658 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 04:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yorktown.paranet.com (yorktown.paranet.com [199.164.131.34]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA02649 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 04:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yorktown.paranet.com; id GAA02839; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 06:29:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from farragut.srv.paranet.com(172.16.3.35) by yorktown.paranet.com via smap (V3.1.1) id xma002832; Fri, 15 Aug 97 06:28:53 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (pppsrv02.srv.paranet.com [172.16.3.4]) by farragut.srv.paranet.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id GAA20555 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 06:28:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19970815062834.30071efe@farragut.srv.paranet.com> X-Sender: bamorris@farragut.srv.paranet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 06:28:34 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Brad Morrison Subject: Re: The Root Privilege Issue In-Reply-To: <9708142121.ZM2401@mtgzfs3.lucent.com> References: <199708142108.OAA29353@shakespeare.net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At 09:21 PM 8/14/97 -0400, Richard A.Stewart wrote: >I'd previously considered FSA's PowerBroker, etc, which beyond controlling >just who can do what, when, from where, with logging *also* has the option >of write-only keystroke logging ... along with their own vi, emacs, ... Yes, but they lack a secure xterm client, so unless you forbid its usage, logging can easily be escaped by forking an xterm, cmdtool, etc. >Set it up right and you could set double blind root passwords and lock'em >away in a safe. Absolutely--watch out for traffic and load issues on your secure PB server, though. Bjorn Satveda presented two unique methods a few years back: 1) Allow anyone to get the password from the security guard, but access is only for n days, and a full activity report must be submitted afterward. 2) Change/alias "root" to "clerk" in /etc/password--he claimed that it actually deterred prestige-type usage. -- "Push to test." Brad Morrison: Senior Technical Analyst, Sprint Paranet "Every adversity carries with it the seed of an "Release to detonate." equivalent or greater benefit." --Napoleon Hill From sage-members-owner Fri Aug 15 06:44:33 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA09646 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 06:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aretha.jax.org (aretha.jax.org [192.43.249.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA09637 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 06:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mollie (mollie.jax.org [192.233.42.5]) by aretha.jax.org (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA01848 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:41:05 -0400 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:41:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregg TeHennepe X-Sender: gat@mollie To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: The Root Privilege Issue In-Reply-To: <199708142108.OAA29353@shakespeare.net.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Stan Heller wrote: > At our site we are once again engaged with our users in the traditional "but we > need root access" issue. We have been trying to roll out OSH as an alternative > but we are getting some serious pushback from the development community. > > We would like to get some feedback from other admins at other sites how they > handle this issue. Also some advice on what tools you use to give the users > what they need but keep the world safe. At our site, development and research usage is segregated from production onto separate hosts on separate physical nets, and privileged access on those systems is controlled via sudo, which syslogs activity to a secure production host. Sudo users are required to maintain uncrackable passwords. No NFS mounts are allowed from production systems onto dev/research hosts, tho the reverse is permitted with nosuid. The two groups are also segregated into "trusted" and "untrusted" NIS netgroups to control remote authentication (ie rsh). We provide most of the system administration for the untrusted machines, including hardware/OS installation, network integration, most application installation, and backup; sudo privs are utilized relatively rarely on them. So far this environment has been quite functional for both the dev/research users and for our group. Cheers - Gregg Gregg TeHennepe | Unix Systems Administrator | The Jackson Laboratory gat@jax.org | http://www.jax.org/~gat | Bar Harbor, Maine USA From sage-members-owner Fri Aug 15 07:59:44 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA13730 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apollo.fedworld.gov (apollo.fedworld.gov [192.239.92.203]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA13664 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Dwight.FedWorld.gov ([205.128.148.56]) by apollo.fedworld.gov with SMTP (1.40.112.12/16.2) id AA239336901; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:55:04 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970815145947.006a7d1c@pop.fedworld.gov> X-Sender: dpeter@pop.fedworld.gov X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:59:47 -0400 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Dwight Petersen Subject: root privilege Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The root privilege issue is really a specialized case of your customers wanting you to provide more services and not wanting to pay for it. The answer is that if the want to ride the train they have to pay. If they want to sit in first class they have to pay more. Allow me a story along these lines. In the Army the base telephone office used to get a budget to provide telephone service to the base. Users didn't have to pay for installation or service. It was covered by the budget. When a colonel moved his office. Often times no one planned for telephone service in advance they would just call the base telephone office and say. I've moved, where are my telephones, and the lieutenant in charge of telephones would rush a crew over to install telephones in the colonels new offices. When the crew got there the colonel would want twice as many phones as he had before. As budgets got tighter, some bright lieutenant said, look these colonels move every six months its running me ragged, the budget is gone, I'm going crazy. General, we're here to fight wars not install telephones. Why don't we have the telephone company provide telephone service. We can split the money we get for operating the telephones up amongst the departments and all the colonels can get new modern push button phones instead of these old rotaries that we have. The general bought it. Nowadays, when colonels move and want more phones the lieutenants call the phone company and come back and say. "The phone company says it will be out in a week and it will cost $100 for each phone you want move and $150 for each new phone you want, so with all the phones we want that comes to $3,000, But we only have $2500. The the colonel makes a command decision. "All the lieutentants will have to share phones." Now lieutenant, what do we do until next week. And the lieutenant says, well there's a pay phone down stairs.... My philosophy is that if these people want root, we have to make them pay. Then they will only want root if they really, really need it. Now, this is a reason why you should regularly, contract some functions out. Say your company mostly uses Sybase, but in comes a new hot shot department head and he wants Oracle used in his department. Don't install it, have an outside contractor do it. Pay him $200 and hour. Make sure it is paid by the department that wants it. The next time the same customer wants an extra service, announce that this time you can provide the service in house. Bill him $100 an hour. Gee your a hero. Am I belaboring this too much?? The whole idea is make 'em pay. That's the only way to hold down demands for more services. Dwight Petersen, is a system administrator for FedWorld, at the National Technical Information Service. In other words, I'm from the government, pleeease let me help you. From sage-members-owner Fri Aug 15 08:37:19 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA15932 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aretha.jax.org (aretha.jax.org [192.43.249.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA15923 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mollie (mollie.jax.org [192.233.42.5]) by aretha.jax.org (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id LAA08294 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:33:52 -0400 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:33:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregg TeHennepe X-Sender: gat@mollie To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: root privilege In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970815145947.006a7d1c@pop.fedworld.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Dwight Petersen wrote: > The root privilege issue is really a specialized case of your customers > wanting you to provide more services and not wanting to pay for it. The > answer is that if the want to ride the train they have to pay. If they want > to sit in first class they have to pay more. While this approach may be appropriate in certain administrative cultures (particularly those heavily wed to cost-accounting within the organization), I would suggest it is not universally applicable. In our case, it is almost certainly less expensive for the institution to allow controlled root privs on certain systems. This delegates some of the administrative responsibilities to the end user which would have to be covered by additional resources in System Administration if they were to get full-bore, production level support. In this case (I suspect) the cost of additional Systems Admin personnel far outweighs the cost of implementing an untrusted environment with partial delegation of administrative functions. Cheers - Gregg Gregg TeHennepe | Unix Systems Administrator | The Jackson Laboratory gat@jax.org | http://www.jax.org/~gat | Bar Harbor, Maine USA From sage-members-owner Fri Aug 15 09:53:49 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA19922 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unet.net.com (unet.net.com [134.56.1.48]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA19913 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic.net.com by unet.net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA06376; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:49:52 -0700 Received: from shakespeare.net.com by jurassic.net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA18889; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:49:49 -0700 Received: by shakespeare.net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA00629; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:49:47 -0700 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:49:47 -0700 From: stan@net.com (Stan Heller) Message-Id: <199708151649.JAA00629@shakespeare.net.com> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: root privilege Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-MD5: 1yi7W3xFclrANmhV9yO8Fg== Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Good folks, Thanks for the response on this issue. Unless there are people who WANT this thread to continue as a public forum, I would request that respondants send mail to me directly henceforth. I think this alias is valuable and I don't want to abuse it. I will send out a "best of" on this mail thread in about a week, giving others the chance to send their thoughts, procedures and war stories. Again, I appreciate the support of the community on this issue. =stan ====================================================== Stan Heller (415)780-5351 Engineering Systems Administration Network Equipment Technologies stan@net.com From sage-members-owner Fri Aug 15 13:47:30 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA03692 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from firewall2.Lehman.COM (firewall.Lehman.COM [192.147.65.67]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA03683 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.messaging-svcs2.lehman.com by firewall2.Lehman.COM (8.8.6/8.6.12) id QAA17997; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:44:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dsoprod1.dsoprod.lehman.com by relay.messaging-svcs2.lehman.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA14845; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:43:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mrbun.lehman.com by dsoprod1.dsoprod.lehman.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA02835; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:43:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mrbun.lehman.com (SMI-8.6/Lehman Bros. V1.5) id QAA09653; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:43:29 -0400 From: "Xev Gittler" Message-Id: <9708151643.ZM9651@mrbun.dsoprod.lehman.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:43:28 -0400 In-Reply-To: Gregg TeHennepe "Re: root privilege" (Aug 15, 11:33am) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95) To: Gregg TeHennepe , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: root privilege Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Aug 15, 11:33am, Gregg TeHennepe wrote: > Subject: Re: root privilege > On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Dwight Petersen wrote: > > > The root privilege issue is really a specialized case of your customers > > wanting you to provide more services and not wanting to pay for it. The > > answer is that if the want to ride the train they have to pay. If they want > > to sit in first class they have to pay more. > > While this approach may be appropriate in certain administrative cultures > (particularly those heavily wed to cost-accounting within the organization), I > would suggest it is not universally applicable. In our case, it is almost > certainly less expensive for the institution to allow controlled root privs on > certain systems. This delegates some of the administrative responsibilities to > the end user which would have to be covered by additional resources in System > Administration if they were to get full-bore, production level support. In > this case (I suspect) the cost of additional Systems Admin personnel far > outweighs the cost of implementing an untrusted environment with partial > delegation of administrative functions. This is an interesting argument, most often used in the PC world, and completely wrong. Allowing the end user to manage a system is not less expensive. In fact, in almost all cases it can be shown to be quite a bit more expensive. What it does do is shift the cost from a system administor body to the time and effort of the end user (in many cases, a much more expensive resource). So now you have senior personnel spending time managing their systems, usually in a far worse fashion than a professional sysadmin would do. Now I don't mean to imply that this is the way really works. I once managed a PDP-11, for which we paid $10K a year maintenance. I asked if we could replace it with a $5K workstation, and I was told that we didn't have money for capital expenditures, but we can spend gobs of money on maintainence. My point is that simply saying that it is cheaper is wrong ... it just happens to be the only way you can cook your books. Xev Gittler xev@lehman.com > > Gregg TeHennepe | Unix Systems Administrator | The Jackson Laboratory > gat@jax.org | http://www.jax.org/~gat | Bar Harbor, Maine USA > >-- End of excerpt from Gregg TeHennepe From sage-members-owner Tue Aug 19 17:15:06 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA07441 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chronos.synopsys.com (chronos.synopsys.com [146.225.8.10]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA07432 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atropos.synopsys.com by chronos.synopsys.com with SMTP id AA02131 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:44:56 -0700 Received: from tikal.synopsys.com (tikal.synopsys.com [146.225.66.61]) by atropos.synopsys.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA05645; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:11:15 -0700 Received: from tikal.synopsys.com by tikal.synopsys.com (SMI-8.6/SNPS-Sol2) id RAA01585; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:11:13 -0700 Message-Id: <199708200011.RAA01585@tikal.synopsys.com> To: baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@usenix.org Cc: bigmac@baylisa.org Subject: BayLISA: Upcoming meetings Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:11:13 -0700 From: Bryan McDonald Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The BayLISA group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to systems and network administrators. The meetings are free and open to the public. Please feel free to redistribute this meeting announcement. BayLISA holds monthly meetings on the third Thursday of each month at 7:30 PM PST. We meet at Cisco Building J in San Jose, on Tasman Drive near First street. See www.baylisa.org for more information. The meetings are also broadcast via MBONE. Schedule ======== August 21, 1997: Gigabit Ethernet, Andy Bechtolsheim of Cisco Systems Andreas Bechtolsheim, founder of Granite Systems, a company dedicated to gigbit ethernet development and recently purchased by Cisco Systems, will be discussing the market and applications for Gigabit Ethernet, the emerging new standard for enterprise backbones. September 18, 1997: Possible topic: LINUX, speaker pending October 15, 1997: Possible topic: Atria Clearcase, speaker pending November 20, 1997: Perl and Java, Larry Wall BayLISA Board elections [Schedule subject to change] For further information on BayLISA, check out our web site: http://www.baylisa.org/ To get further information on the meeting location, you can also ftp it from ftp.baylisa.org:/BayLISA/location For any other information, please send email to: info@baylisa.org If you have any questions, please contact me or the info alias listed above. =============================================================================== Bryan McDonald bigmac@baylisa.org President president@baylisa.org BayLISA http://www.baylisa.org =============================================================================== From sage-members-owner Wed Aug 20 08:53:07 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA22677 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 08:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.cdpr.ca.gov (hermes.cdpr.ca.gov [134.186.189.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA22664 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 08:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from empm.cdpr.ca.gov (empm.cdpr.ca.gov [134.186.108.6]) by hermes.cdpr.ca.gov (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id IAA14031 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 08:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from empm.cdpr.ca.gov by empm.cdpr.ca.gov (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA28141; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 08:49:02 -0700 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 08:49:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Stoddard To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Sacramento Lisa? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I am sysadmin for a small Solaris/WinNT/DOS network in a California government agency (Oracle, GIS), and I would be interested in any information on a Lisa group in the Sacramento area. The SAGE office knows only of the Orange County group, but this list has recently seen postings for Beach and Bay Lisa groups. Is there a Sacramento group lurking out there somewhere? Peter Stoddard Environmental Monitoring and Pest Management Branch California Department of Pesticide Regulation PGP ID A11FD695 From sage-members-owner Wed Aug 20 16:05:41 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA17872 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 16:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kiowa.wildstar.net (root@kiowa.wildstar.net [198.203.196.143]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA17863 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 16:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from falcon@localhost) by kiowa.wildstar.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) id RAA29042 for sage-members@usenix.org; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:57:17 -0500 From: falcon Message-Id: <199708202257.RAA29042@kiowa.wildstar.net> Subject: solaris questions To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:57:16 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I had an experience today where solaris booted with a read only root file system. I did reinstall solaris but is there any easier way to fix it. The problem was related due tp a corrupted vfstab. I also would like to be pointed in the right direction of making a boot floppy for it in case its needed. Randy Wyatt systems engineer Information Industries Inc. From sage-members-owner Thu Aug 21 05:53:13 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA29460 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 05:53:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from poss.com (camel.poss.com [198.70.184.130]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA29451 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 05:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunfire (wheat-b-24.nb.net [207.113.179.148]) by poss.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA00156; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:44:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from grand-am.wpa.poss.com (grand-am [172.16.0.5]) by sunfire (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA09693; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:50:31 -0400 Received: from localhost (wilcox@localhost) by grand-am.wpa.poss.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA15807; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:50:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199708211250.IAA15807@grand-am.wpa.poss.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0beta 12/23/96 To: falcon cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: solaris questions In-reply-to: Message <199708202257.RAA29042@kiowa.wildstar.net> from "Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:57:16 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:50:14 -0400 From: Ken Wilcox Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk falcon writes: > Hi, > I had an experience today where solaris booted with a read only root file s > ystem. > I did reinstall solaris but is there any easier way to fix it. The problem w > as related due tp a corrupted vfstab. Hmm, sounds like the snap I get into with sys-unconfig. Don't understand it, but it can sure mess up a system. In either case, the fix for this is to get to the point where you can get in via single user, or where it craps out trying to boot. Log in as root or what have you and then do mount -o remount /dev/dsk/c0t0d0s0 (or whatever the root device is) / This will mount the file system read-write and you can use an editor and fix the vfstab problem. You might have to mount some filesystems, but nonetheless that is the piece you have been missing. > I also would like to be pointed in the right direction of making a boot flopp > y > for it in case its needed. I would simply recommend keeping the OS CD and a cdrom drive available instead of a floppy. With the CD, you get everything on the system, without having to mount a single partition of you system. Sure it will come up to the "install me" portion, but if you ignore that and bring up command tools, you can get whatever you need to. -- Ken Wilcox Perfect Order Inc. Account Representative Authorized Sun Reseller 2526 Monroeville Blvd. Suite 205 Monroeville PA 15146 Phone: +1 412 825 8600 Email: wilcox@poss.com Fax: +1 412 825 3766 From sage-members-owner Thu Aug 21 08:20:08 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA07359 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from venus.Sun.COM (venus.Sun.COM [192.9.25.5]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA07350 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunmail1.Sun.COM ([129.145.1.2]) by venus.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id IAA29436; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:16:09 -0700 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com by sunmail1.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1) id IAA20394; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:16:06 -0700 Received: from evolved.eng.sun.com (evolved [129.146.81.183]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.8.7+Sun.Alpha.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10503; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by evolved.eng.sun.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA11556; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:14:54 -0700 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:14:54 -0700 From: Sol.Lederman@eng.sun.com (Sol Lederman) Message-Id: <199708211514.IAA11556@evolved.eng.sun.com> To: wilcox@poss.com Subject: Re: solaris questions Cc: sage-members@usenix.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Ken, If you do "boot cdrom -s" the system will come up in single-user mode and not bring up suninstall. Sol > From sage-members-owner@usenix.ORG Thu Aug 21 06:01:28 1997 > To: falcon > cc: sage-members@usenix.org > Subject: Re: solaris questions > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:50:14 -0400 > From: Ken Wilcox > > falcon writes: > > Hi, > > I had an experience today where solaris booted with a read only root file s > > ystem. > > I did reinstall solaris but is there any easier way to fix it. The problem w > > as related due tp a corrupted vfstab. > > Hmm, sounds like the snap I get into with sys-unconfig. Don't understand it, > but it can sure mess up a system. In either case, the fix for this is to get > to the point where you can get in via single user, or where it craps out trying > to boot. Log in as root or what have you and then do > > mount -o remount /dev/dsk/c0t0d0s0 (or whatever the root device is) / > > This will mount the file system read-write and you can use an editor and fix > the vfstab problem. You might have to mount some filesystems, but nonetheless > that is the piece you have been missing. > > > I also would like to be pointed in the right direction of making a boot flopp > > y > > for it in case its needed. > > I would simply recommend keeping the OS CD and a cdrom drive available instead > of a floppy. With the CD, you get everything on the system, without having to > mount a single partition of you system. Sure it will come up to the "install > me" > portion, but if you ignore that and bring up command tools, you can get > whatever > you need to. > > > > -- > Ken Wilcox Perfect Order Inc. > Account Representative Authorized Sun Reseller > 2526 Monroeville Blvd. Suite 205 > Monroeville PA 15146 > Phone: +1 412 825 8600 Email: wilcox@poss.com > Fax: +1 412 825 3766 > > > From sage-members-owner Fri Aug 22 06:49:16 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA26110 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 1997 06:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apollo.fedworld.gov (apollo.fedworld.gov [192.239.92.203]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA26101 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 1997 06:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Dwight.FedWorld.gov ([205.128.148.56]) by apollo.fedworld.gov with SMTP (1.40.112.12/16.2) id AA096917468; Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:44:29 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970822134916.006c4fa4@pop.fedworld.gov> X-Sender: dpeter@pop.fedworld.gov X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:49:16 -0400 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Dwight Petersen Subject: locking up the shop with cdrom boots Cc: cklaus@ISS.NET Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Back when I was a real novice sysadmin, I can remember proposing that a lot of problems with crackers could be eliminated by booting from cd. I can remember the heavy duty security guys making what appeared to be an effort to take me seriously and not roll their eyes at the suggestion. So I was taken by surprise when I was reading through a paper on back doors. I found cklaus recommending this same solution. You will find the excerpted paragraph attached. I'd like to hear some comments on the best ways one might implement such a scheme, since I haven't thought about it since the last time I mentioned it in public. Has anyone done this? Tried it? >From: Christopher Klaus >Subject: Backdoor Paper >To: BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG > >Here's a paper I wrote on backdoors. Feedback welcome. lots of stuff omitted here. >Boot from CD-ROM. > >Some administrators may want to consider booting from CD-ROM thus >eliminating the possibility of an intruder installing a backdoor on the >CD-ROM. The problem with this method is the cost and time of implementing >this solution enterprise wide. > although rereading it I don't think it is the CD-ROM we are trying to avoid an intruder installing a back door on. I assume it should say the "system". Dwight Petersen, is a system administrator for FedWorld, at the National Technical Information Service. In other words, I'm from the government, pleeease let me help you. From sage-members-owner Fri Aug 22 09:04:44 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA04229 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cc255118-a.owml1.md.home.com (cc255118-a.owml1.md.home.com [24.3.34.84]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA04213 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from IDENT-NOT-QUERIED@localhost (port 13922 [127.0.0.1]) by realbig.com with SMTP id <712004-10427>; Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:58:00 +0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:57:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Andy Poling To: Dwight Petersen cc: sage-members@usenix.org, cklaus@ISS.NET Subject: Re: locking up the shop with cdrom boots In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970822134916.006c4fa4@pop.fedworld.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Dwight Petersen wrote: > Back when I was a real novice sysadmin, I can remember proposing that a lot of > problems with crackers could be eliminated by booting from cd. [...] > although rereading it I don't think it is the CD-ROM we are trying to avoid an > intruder installing a back door on. I assume it should say the "system". Actually, a regular magnetic disk with the write-protect jumper installed is just about as effective and alot easier to produce/create, not to mention faster... The degree of difficulty varies with the OS you're working with. Just to show it can be done, some Linux distribution CDROMS have what they call "live filesystems" that you can boot and run from. -Andy From sage-members-owner Sat Aug 23 03:14:11 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA05020 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 23 Aug 1997 03:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA04986 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 1997 03:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA04870; Sat, 23 Aug 1997 16:20:25 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id QAA13615; Sat, 23 Aug 1997 16:10:49 +0600 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 16:10:48 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: Dwight Petersen cc: sage-members@usenix.org, cklaus@ISS.NET Subject: Re: locking up the shop with cdrom boots In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970822134916.006c4fa4@pop.fedworld.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Back when I was a real novice sysadmin, I can remember proposing that a lot of > problems with crackers could be eliminated by booting from cd. surelly, cd is not writable:) Seriosly, i think the thing, which is meant here, is such hacker's technique as replacing daemons, login, and other stuff thus leaving backdoors and other things, but however idea of booting from CD sounds not good to me, sure, it it will secure your system, but on the other hand, if you want to upgrade your system, you would have to buy new CD *sounds like Micro$oPht's idea.. surelly soon Windoze will be avaliable only CD-booted:-)" and the worth of UNIX systems would be lost by switching to this.. what i like in *ix systems, is that they are very adpative.. if you feel about some feature as the bug, you can easily fix it.. after all source code is always avaliable (at least for BSD and Linux systems) so.. > I can remember > the heavy duty security guys making what appeared to be an effort to take me > seriously and not roll their eyes at the suggestion. So I was taken by surprise > when I was reading through a paper on back doors. > I found cklaus > recommending this same solution. this sounds to me the same, as to advice using papers and stuff in banks and other financial departments instead of computers.. this would make stolling money over nets impossible:) > You will find the excerpted paragraph > attached. I'd like to hear some comments on the best ways one might > implement such a scheme, since I haven't thought about it since the last > time I mentioned it in public. Has anyone done this? Tried it? > > >From: Christopher Klaus > >Subject: Backdoor Paper > >To: BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG > > > >Here's a paper I wrote on backdoors. Feedback welcome. > > lots of stuff omitted here. > > >Boot from CD-ROM. > > > >Some administrators may want to consider booting from CD-ROM thus > >eliminating the possibility of an intruder installing a backdoor on the > >CD-ROM. The problem with this method is the cost and time of implementing > >this solution enterprise wide. > > > > although rereading it I don't think it is the CD-ROM we are trying to avoid an > intruder installing a back door on. I assume it should say the "system". > > Dwight Petersen, is a system administrator for FedWorld, at the National > Technical Information Service. In other words, I'm from the government, > pleeease let me help you. > --- Fyodor Yarochkin aka Xiz0L (3312)474465 fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su http://www.freenet.bishkek.su/~fygrave/ http://www.tigerteam.net/anarchy/ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/8302 "Infernus" band's links http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Towers/7734 http://www.ubl.com/artists/013602.html ASHes to ASHes, DO(g)S to DO(g)S. "The more people I meet, the more I like my ...Linux box." GCS/GCC/GIT/GMU/d---/s:/a--/C++++/L++/U+++/P++/E/W++/N-/o/K-/W---/O-/M--/ V-/PS--/PE-/Y++/PGP++/t/5-/X++/R/tv/h++/D--/G/e/h!/r%/z? (Geek-3.1) Join Kyrgyzstani Active Linux Users Group:http://www.freenet.bishkek.su/kalug/ From sage-members-owner Sat Aug 23 04:27:09 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA09111 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 23 Aug 1997 04:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA09046 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 1997 04:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA05038; Sat, 23 Aug 1997 17:37:08 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id RAA14281; Sat, 23 Aug 1997 17:27:25 +0600 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 17:27:24 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Yarochkin To: Andy Poling cc: Dwight Petersen , sage-members@usenix.org, cklaus@ISS.NET Subject: Re: locking up the shop with cdrom boots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > The degree of difficulty varies with the OS you're working with. Just to > show it can be done, some Linux distribution CDROMS have what they call > "live filesystems" that you can boot and run from. in fact Linux systems usually requre to adopt their configuration/kernel to existing kernel, usually when you boot with default config/kernel it would see only your CD/HD/FD.. maybe modem and mouse.. but that usually is all.. for additional things you would have to recompile kernels/compile modules etc.. From sage-members-owner Sat Aug 23 07:29:02 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA18551 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 23 Aug 1997 07:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peak.org (root@PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA18542 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 1997 07:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (sechrest@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peak.org (8.8.5/8.6.7) with ESMTP id HAA23613; Sat, 23 Aug 1997 07:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708231417.HAA23613@peak.org> To: Fyodor Yarochkin Cc: Dwight Petersen , sage-members@usenix.org, cklaus@iss.net Subject: Re: locking up the shop with cdrom boots In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 23 Aug 1997 16:10:48 +0600. Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 07:17:34 -0700 From: (John Sechrest) Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk -------- Given that you can now buy CD ROM burners and that you can buy the raw media for $10. It is reasonable to be able burn a new CD rom on a weekly or monthly basis. If you have a production system. Or better yet a series of production systems, then you can use a development system to create the image for the production systems. And then you upgrade them by burning a New CD rom. This locks down the image so that it can not be altered on the fly. And requires that you get to the development machine. In some senarios, like a lab or a production line, the method of using CD roms as boot media seems like an economical one, given that the price of CDs and the burners has dropped. Fyodor Yarochkin writes: % > Back when I was a real novice sysadmin, I can remember proposing that a lot of % > problems with crackers could be eliminated by booting from cd. % % surelly, cd is not writable:) % Seriosly, i think the thing, which is meant here, is such hacker's technique % as replacing daemons, login, and other stuff thus leaving backdoors and % other things, but however idea of booting from CD sounds not good to me, % sure, it it will secure your system, but on the other hand, if you want % to upgrade your system, you would have to buy new CD *sounds like % Micro$oPht's idea.. surelly soon Windoze will be avaliable only CD-booted:-)" % and the worth of UNIX systems would be lost by switching to this.. % what i like in *ix systems, is that they are very adpative.. if you feel % about some feature as the bug, you can easily fix it.. after all source % code is always avaliable (at least for BSD and Linux systems) so.. % % % > I can remember % > the heavy duty security guys making what appeared to be an effort to take me % > seriously and not roll their eyes at the suggestion. So I was taken by surprise % > when I was reading through a paper on back doors. % > I found cklaus % > recommending this same solution. % % this sounds to me the same, as to advice using papers and stuff in banks % and other financial departments instead of computers.. this would make % stolling money over nets impossible:) % % % > You will find the excerpted paragraph % > attached. I'd like to hear some comments on the best ways one might % > implement such a scheme, since I haven't thought about it since the last % > time I mentioned it in public. Has anyone done this? Tried it? % > % > >From: Christopher Klaus % > >Subject: Backdoor Paper % > >To: BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG % > > % > >Here's a paper I wrote on backdoors. Feedback welcome. % > % > lots of stuff omitted here. % > % > >Boot from CD-ROM. % > > % > >Some administrators may want to consider booting from CD-ROM thus % > >eliminating the possibility of an intruder installing a backdoor on the % > >CD-ROM. The problem with this method is the cost and time of implementing % > >this solution enterprise wide. % > > % > % > although rereading it I don't think it is the CD-ROM we are trying to avoid an % > intruder installing a back door on. I assume it should say the "system". % > % > Dwight Petersen, is a system administrator for FedWorld, at the National % > Technical Information Service. In other words, I'm from the government, % > pleeease let me help you. % > % % --- % Fyodor Yarochkin aka Xiz0L (3312)474465 fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su % http://www.freenet.bishkek.su/~fygrave/ http://www.tigerteam.net/anarchy/ % http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/8302 % "Infernus" band's links http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Towers/7734 % http://www.ubl.com/artists/013602.html % ASHes to ASHes, DO(g)S to DO(g)S. % "The more people I meet, the more I like my ...Linux box." % GCS/GCC/GIT/GMU/d---/s:/a--/C++++/L++/U+++/P++/E/W++/N-/o/K-/W---/O-/M--/ % V-/PS--/PE-/Y++/PGP++/t/5-/X++/R/tv/h++/D--/G/e/h!/r%/z? (Geek-3.1) % % Join Kyrgyzstani Active Linux Users Group:http://www.freenet.bishkek.su/kalug/ % ----- John Sechrest . Helping people use PEAK - . computers and the Internet Public Electronic . more effectively Access to Knowledge,Inc . 850 SW 15th Street . Internet: sechrest@peak.org Corvallis Oregon 97331 . (541) 754-7325 . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest From sage-members-owner Sun Aug 24 07:31:50 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA29304 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 07:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yod.netaccess.co.il (root@netaccess-dial.NetVision.net.il [199.203.95.101]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA29295 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 07:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from yaron@localhost) by yod.netaccess.co.il (8.8.5/8.8.2) id RAA26268; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 17:26:36 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 17:26:34 +0300 (IDT) From: Yaron Zabary X-Sender: yaron@yod To: Dwight Petersen cc: sage-members@usenix.org, cklaus@iss.net Subject: Re: locking up the shop with cdrom boots In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970822134916.006c4fa4@pop.fedworld.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Dwight Petersen wrote: > Back when I was a real novice sysadmin, I can remember proposing that a lot of > problems with crackers could be eliminated by booting from cd. I can remember > the heavy duty security guys making what appeared to be an effort to take me > seriously and not roll their eyes at the suggestion. So I was taken by surprise > when I was reading through a paper on back doors. I found cklaus > recommending this same solution. You will find the excerpted paragraph > attached. I'd like to hear some comments on the best ways one might > implement such a scheme, since I haven't thought about it since the last > time I mentioned it in public. Has anyone done this? Tried it? > > >From: Christopher Klaus > >Subject: Backdoor Paper > >To: BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG > > > >Here's a paper I wrote on backdoors. Feedback welcome. > > lots of stuff omitted here. > > >Boot from CD-ROM. > > > >Some administrators may want to consider booting from CD-ROM thus > >eliminating the possibility of an intruder installing a backdoor on the > >CD-ROM. The problem with this method is the cost and time of implementing > >this solution enterprise wide. > > > Most disks have a read-only jumper. It is therefore possible to install the OS just as before and then to make the disk read-only. This will make update a bit more flexible than a CDROM. (Idea, courtesy of O. Comay). > although rereading it I don't think it is the CD-ROM we are trying to avoid an > intruder installing a back door on. I assume it should say the "system". > > Dwight Petersen, is a system administrator for FedWorld, at the National > Technical Information Service. In other words, I'm from the government, > pleeease let me help you. > > -- Yaron. From sage-members-owner Sun Aug 24 15:32:11 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA24534 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 15:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA24525 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 15:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA24886; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 18:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12175; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 18:28:37 -0400 Message-Id: <199708242228.AA12175@world.std.com> Subject: A more "secure"yppasswd? To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 18:28:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk "A friend of a friend" just finished running "crack" at her site, and was dismayed to find that nearly 90% of the passwords that cracked managed to guess were some combination or variation of the username and/or full name. This got me thinking: While most modern versions of "passwd" and "yppasswd" force a password to be of a reasonable length and a "sufficiently rich alphabet" (sun's words, not mine), they're not strict enough about the rest of the rules. The man page for "passwd" (at least, on Solaris 2.5) says is prevents some permutations of the username, but it doesn't do any checks using the full name, nor does it get the common permutations like using digits that look like letters ("1" for "i" or "l" and "5" for "s"), nor does it do even a simple dictionary look-up. Worse, the man page for "yppasswd" doesn't mention even the uname check. So, is there a publicly-available version of "yppasswd" that does any of these checks? I want "yppasswd" rather than "passwd" because I don't want to have to hack in the YP (er, NIS) stuff myself. Respond to me or the list; if I get enough "private" replies, I'll summarize. Thanx, AdamM From sage-members-owner Tue Aug 26 08:39:47 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA13547 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from igtc.igtc.com (pmm@igtc.igtc.com [206.86.144.10]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA13533 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pmm@localhost) by igtc.igtc.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA15953; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19970826083611.10870@igtc.igtc.com> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:36:11 -0700 From: "Paul M. Moriarty" To: Ken Mayer Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a procmail recipie for rejecting spam References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: ; from Ken Mayer on Mon, Aug 25, 1997 at 04:44:25PM -0700 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Check out http://alcor.concordia.ca/topics/email/auto/procmail/spam/index.html for an exhaustive list of procmail recipes for dealing with spam. I've had about an 80% success rate in detecting and eliminating spam using these recipes. Ken Mayer writes: > > I've been using the following procmail recipe for kicking back SPAM mail. > It seems to work well. I would be interested to see what other people are > doing with their procmail. Also, if any sendmail gurus think that this > might cause a mail loop, I would be grateful for a warning. > > Ken > > # Use this to reject mail from people > EXITCODE=77 > > :0 > * ^From: .*owl@owlsnest.com > > EXITCODE="" > From sage-members-owner Tue Aug 26 11:18:15 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA24119 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maildeliver0.tiac.net (maildeliver0.tiac.net [199.0.65.19]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA24110 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lorien.ajs.com (root@lorien.ajs.com [207.60.239.49]) by maildeliver0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with ESMTP id OAA18212; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 14:14:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lorien.ajs.com (lorien.ajs.com [207.60.239.49]) by lorien.ajs.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA28963; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 13:01:25 -0400 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 13:01:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Sherman To: "Paul M. Moriarty" cc: Ken Mayer , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a procmail recipie for rejecting spam In-Reply-To: <19970826083611.10870@igtc.igtc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Paul M. Moriarty wrote: > Check out > http://alcor.concordia.ca/topics/email/auto/procmail/spam/index.html > for an exhaustive list of procmail recipes for dealing with spam. I've had > about an 80% success rate in detecting and eliminating spam using these > recipes. > > Ken Mayer writes: > > > > I've been using the following procmail recipe for kicking back SPAM mail. > > It seems to work well. I would be interested to see what other people are > > doing with their procmail. Also, if any sendmail gurus think that this > > might cause a mail loop, I would be grateful for a warning. > > The panix info provided on this page is bad, and some of the scripts need tweeking, but with work it functions well (saved me the effort of evolving a set of tools). -AJS From sage-members-owner Thu Aug 28 16:21:59 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA24931 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 16:21:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rigel.dartmouth.edu (rigel.dartmouth.edu [129.170.18.204]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24919 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 16:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rigel.dartmouth.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rigel.dartmouth.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA19592 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:18:29 -0400 Message-Id: <199708282318.TAA19592@rigel.dartmouth.edu> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: SAGE Board Update Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:18:29 -0500 From: Pat Wilson Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Howdy! The SAGE Board met on August 13th, right before the Large Scale Systems Administration of NT workshop. Meeting highlights included: - a report on The Maryland Virtual High School Project, which SAGE funded as part of its "Good Works" initiative. Check out for a nice writeup. We're very pleased at the way this went, and hope to be able to do more educational outreach things in the future. - the SAGE local group movement continues to grow. The Board has agreed to fund a proposal by the Seattle SAGE Group to have Randal Schwartz speak at a meeting - we're certainly always open to receiving proposals from local groups for funding for activities. Send such things either to the Board (sage-board@usenix.org) or to our Locals Liason (Amy Kreiling, amy@usenix.org). There's also a locals section on the SAGE site. - UGU (Unix Guru Universe) has become a SAGE Supporting member - welcome to them! Check out their site (, if you're not already a regular. - your Board is working on its governing documentation; our "Articles of Organization" (SAGE, as a Usenix Special Technical Group, isn't really a legal entity, so we can't have Bylaws) and a "Policies" document will be available for public perusal soon. The NT Admin workshop itself seemed to be a huge success - over 400 people turned out to share ideas and frustrations and hear from and be seen by Microsoft folks - a lot of cross-pollination occured, and I think the Microsoft folks got their eyes opened a bit. You can check out the techincal program at We'll also be having a "Best of the NT Workshop" Invited Talk at LISA. You should have already received your LISA pre-registration materials in the mail - make sure you register *NOW* if you want to get into the more popular tutorials! The conference is in the usual format (tutorials Sun-Tues, conference itself Wed-Fri), and this year we've added a poster session for things that might be too "small" for a full paper but are interesting results nonetheless - make sure to check it out! Note, too that there will be a COSTUME PARTY on Thursday night - bring something fun to wear. You can also visit LISA '97 online at The Call for Proposals to chair LISA '98 (to be held Dec 6-11 in Boston, MA) has just been released - look for it in the usual places. And, per usual, we're always looking for feedback. Send comments, suggestions, or whatever to us all at sage-board@usenix.org. Comments or suggestions for the web site can also go to webster@usenix.org. See you at LISA! Pat Wilson for the SAGE Board From sage-members-owner Tue Sep 2 19:33:15 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA20601 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 19:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.nando.net (storm.nando.net [152.52.2.139]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA20561 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 19:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA08358 for ncsa-announce-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 20:29:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.nando.net: majordomo set sender to owner-ncsa-announce@nando.net using -f Received: from localhost (flanh@localhost) by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA08354 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 20:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 20:29:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Heather Flanagan Reply-To: Heather Flanagan To: ncsa-announce@nando.net Subject: North Carolina System Administrators (NC*SA) meeting - September 8, 1997 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The next meeting of the North Carolina System Administrators organization (NC*SA) will be Monday, September 8, 1997, at 6pm. Details about the meeting, our technical program and directions to our meeting location are provided in this note. We hope to see you there!! North Carolina System Administration Interest Group GE vs ATM vs FDDI: Gigabit Ethernet vs Asysnchronous Transfer Mode vs Fiber Distributed Data Interface Monday, August 11, 1997 Research Triangle Institute Research Triangle Park, NC 6 PM - General Session Presenter: Dan Berglund, 3COM Channel Network Consultant Dan is a Channel Network Consultant with 3COM, and has previously worked with Bay, Newbridge, Data General, ITT, UNC and others for the last twenty years. Previously working in the WAN international networking arena for about seven years, Dan then focused on LAN networking and WAN to LAN integration. With a strong ATM background, Dan has worked channel for about three years. Prior to channel support Dan did SE work in a direct sales capacity for 10 years and worked many multi-million dollar deals. Our meetings are free and open to anyone with an interest in the topic of the evening. We will be providing food and drink for the evening. If you have any questions please contact: Amy K. Kreiling SAS Institute Inc. SAS Campus Drive Cary, NC 27513 (919) 677-8000 x5963 kreiling@unx.sas.com ============================== For information about the NC System Administrators group, contact our Majordomo mailing list server. The "ncsa-discussion" mailing list has been created to facilitate discussions of interest to system administrators from the state of North Carolina. Simply send email to "majordomo@nando.net": mail majordomo@nando.net Subject: subscribe ncsa-discussion After subscribing, Majordomo will send you the help file and info file for our mailing list. These files contain instructions for retrieving other files available to the NCSA organization (e.g. the presentation material from past technical programs are available for retrieval via Majordomo!!) ============================== Directions to Research Triangle Institute (http://www.rti.org/images/campus.gif) From I-40 west of RTP (e.g. Chapel Hill): Get onto I-40 heading east. Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham Freeway - North (towards Durham). Stay in right lane. Shift right as soon as possible after merging with traffic coming off I-40 westbound. Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road). At top of exit, turn to the left. (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you are going the wrong direction.) After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From I-40 east of RTP (e.g. Raleigh): Get onto I-40 heading west. Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham Freeway - North (towards Durham). Shift to rightmost lane as soon as possible Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road). At top of exit, turn to the left. (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you are going the wrong direction.) After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From north of RTP (e.g. Durham): Get onto NC-147 - Durham Freeway - south. Exit at the Cornwallis Road exit. At the top of the exit, turn left to cross over the bridge. After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. *********************************************************************** Heather Flanagan Associate Systems Programmer SAS Institute heflan@unx.sas.com (919)677-8000 x5522 From sage-members-owner Tue Sep 9 10:21:42 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA18739 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (mailhost1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA18724 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garm (garm.mbt.washington.edu [128.95.231.73]) by mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.07) with SMTP id KAA11224; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:18:05 -0700 Message-ID: <3415851C.23AC@u.washington.edu> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 10:19:24 -0700 From: Leeland Artra Reply-To: leeland@u.washington.edu Organization: Cellworks Project MBT UW X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: uwash.dept.lanadmin,seattle.admin To: Seattle SAGE Group CC: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Seattle SAGE Group Meeting on Sept 11 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3D2A33DC2902" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3D2A33DC2902 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, The Seattle SAGE Group (SSG) is a local group for systems & network administrators in the Seattle and Pacific northwest areas (North Western Washington). We are a local chapter of SAGE, but SAGE / USENIX membership is not a requirement. We sponsor a regular monthly meeting open to the public on second Thursday at 7 p.m. This is a reminder & announcement of the next meeting. Next meeting: Thursday September 11, 7:00 PM Topic: Service Level Agreements Presenter: D. Matthew Lehman Location: Department of Molecular Biotechnology University of Washington K-Wing room K343 Web Site: http://cellworks.washington.edu/sage Additional notes: This month's technical speaker is a true from the trenches System Administration veteran. Matthew is a new addition to our local talent pool. His current day job is being the Senior Network Engineer for Seitel Leeds & Associates, a Seattle based consulting firm. He has over 9 years experience as a Unix systems administrator and 5 years of experience as a network engineer from projects as small as 2 SPARCs with an Internet connection to managing a global network spanning more than 30 countries. In his current capacity, he is responsible for providing network design, network security, and network management services. Meeting Agenda: 1) SSG Business, introductions, and open floor (~30 mins) 2) Presentation: "Service Level Agreements (AKA You can't do that now!)" by D. Matthew Lehman, Senior Network Engineer, Seitel Leeds & Associates 3) Closing Feedback and discussion of future topics of interest. Speaker nomination for future meetings. 4) Dinner Social hour for those wishing to attend (not sponsored, you have to buy your own meals, sorry...) Location to be decided by attendees. This will be a wonderful opportunity to schmooze with System Administrators from all over town. Check out our Web site for more information: http://cellworks.washington.edu/sage/ A future "Topics for Presentations" sign up sheet will be at the meeting for any one to list a topic they'd like to have presented. In addition the sheet will also have a place for others (or the requester) to take up the challenge. First come - first serve style for the meeting dates. Cheers, Leeland -- //Leeland Artra University of Washington //Senior Systems Administrator Box 357730 Rm. K343 //Dept of Molecular Biotechnology Seattle, Washington 98195-7730 //mailto:leeland@u.washington.edu phone:206.616.7233 fax:206.685.7301 --------------3D2A33DC2902 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="attachment" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="attachment" The following is a PGP digitally signed copy of this message. -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: 2.6.2 owGNVk2MHEcVdoisKAEjRcLYHJAfBsU7ZLZnZmd/PMNfZvYPY6+1ZBxsgkCq6a6Z rmx3VaeremcnCDiAgnMIp3BBSJEQVysCRA65kEAEEhISIuLKgZwRFxAQKRLfq+6e 3djEYjTanal59X6/73v9wqkfPnj61OrZ7/3xo9H3b732tZf+9sADd1598N2P/+fh h9fPP3f632LnR9/9/cvfmuwV5177189vr75w4Ynfvvjoued7b/3Obj37xtkPfOGR h4adXwx+PXjpM6/fevv2y7MLszcnn/tN9Fb84dmr/+j89RtP/+E7t9/5y0e+/M1P /+lXPz13fuWd54unv/74D878JHj07Rcv//jN018Z//nOxy68+6m/n//S42c/9Mrt f/7yZ5+888Fr44cSlwfuyJ3CazeX0ik9tc0zZx7B+0YsaSSFcwn+D3a3aTc3RUZL o9Fug5QlQYkJRUJTfzwxOdm5dTK19Bhp6WYmP4AXEaVKK+ty4UxuSWlyJ/wKHdG+ CNVEhaRN7uKZtI5ELoWlpet8QDdxInMNVzeFjZGfM7oR4JjNFkmEschgRmbic23S uHBl1i16arR9/cotOEhlOpY5nGScvzaIRLl8tlC5TKV2AbFXmxltUQz/NC0SkVNq tIuTOaVlf+DIZBJ1GF9KVowTZG80WRka1HMjLnIbiTkJRxuUBWlQ9xNBfd8QTukI 2T6GBmhT6NDH5+TZo5ZHrg5W3b1+4qh/HGEkUTTXRJ1Okzb67Tbt78GcytcNk6mw D6v8UIWSrslDmdBgijlzOFsa7ufS4pvM+7QV0B7mEssZbONU6MrVNbTYKaNhITOR uzrZPZPI0LdoqIyTYaxNYqbz4wSq11NaHaLvys351vEY7zG8unwTv1BuTEpXu6vd yuCmHNNIOdmn2Lms32qFMkkYXzaYLZwFMipaVkxl2TG8B1GkOG3AA7OWtn9iDn6m lyz5rBUjyGZSHKCTfkIuLyRNcqTBA3G51GEsLY08wL3rBaoRgA4l+id0Nay6h96T xgdRJcKQMUVeQdaJhPuYGZMAeV+EdVjkOR/xaJ8xY7jC4VhyS0rSaAVgXi+5Rdt6 qrRExky9kUR/EoxNRsy/gbUmVAJFN0nAT823sbAyIsDUFgljiSYqTzm6pBiUMxgT 9WguBagqjzKZK1QOlnElmOIRXNUkfw+xPZHXqouY8d13Kz0gWeUMP767WW6ekaGz bGVTkST8YYVG+4MnNy3NFPgvNF1heMIFJ65hXraSCS20mHIZgqaJGfOgq0A2A7P4 l9RAJVwML9027hfaIS+Lkq9oAhDgpO56KDIokZs3Cb1G48ELlgI1Rt+4xcj1UEXs sw4SSaummuVyERZ8yL0Pbkh96tMsKW5LLtoaKiWlQUqpI1EBtNMgaCwNC4teWUxQ IWkTFb5wW7r2CjRJDPJa+jYqwyxsA3dXGjWhS8aWDLp4fwmgpcHVAX3VFOiBvgT8 sbJBvbSZfaJxsbIZz+/Vh+b7YbJ5FyCZMgtI4ku3QZuJsaWasvcd2I1FeOCLi5QN C2t5zMDSpHAFz5DFzINLMRywFYLq7qhirjboQklInld1r1JN3/HVBm0pQCivb3JG CcVMSr7iYmMlYOc1hdmKajGYuku8Mar1IKMmzdGwWBxyalg3c/6OBTSrZS2VIsG0 YJzPgyBoLGTU20ugJ1QR2DieV2HkAhZeomYKdBjzipsZ3haTIsHYMyzFQrOUwosN 49SY52TJlP+lTrxzPdOYW57eDhlWYTZjiY4bbErOnFUWGl2C3dNGaXxMTwLp/xLg ViW/9QQu3ihHx35PgtNeJOYP4enBxpjSccXO693xvp14hcH20L7ZieKHhBIRbDm/ FOHswP/mB5JVOy0qeV7rLzyx3xPBMKHqiqAsEWFZvIEV+rbkESH9I4J/CGn4nQ+s wRGS5t/w3JFAxqcyoB2VW5aoVNIy66ot2Y54bl5JyImqIPJuMW8MAgFZSEahcU5x gOVlwt9Wqzqh0UwCeJrued1nu+J2yc9RJdrvQYa/PTRH1F3b2ICGPIlNUG3dVgub /n47nupHuOaJiNS73OmtLbMz7yMVKnGmb8vMnyjuAgtRFmOi/ZX2erDeWQ82Vrpd moij8uDyWgA/He9of3efn7PoQM77/qDTXlltDQdrw97q9hZ1er21VnujtdKmult7 waJhn32/+J/3rq7KOaaFCeZZDmUp/W90qbtBvTXqDGlrSIMu9Xao0yba6tBwm1bw d5N2hrS9Se0OrXPL/gs= =Pmiq -----END PGP MESSAGE----- --------------3D2A33DC2902-- From sage-members-owner Tue Sep 9 10:21:41 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA18736 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nntp3.u.washington.edu (root@nntp3.u.washington.edu [140.142.64.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA18719 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nntp3.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.08/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA10909; Tue, 9 Sep 97 10:18:04 -0700 X-Sender: root@nntp3.u.washington.edu To: lanadmin@u.washington.edu Path: root From: Leeland Artra Newsgroups: uwash.dept.lanadmin,seattle.admin Subject: Seattle SAGE Group Meeting on Sept 11 Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 10:19:24 -0700 Organization: Cellworks Project MBT UW Lines: 130 Message-Id: <3415851C.23AC@u.washington.edu> Reply-To: leeland@u.washington.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: garm.mbt.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3D2A33DC2902" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) To: Seattle SAGE Group Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3D2A33DC2902 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, The Seattle SAGE Group (SSG) is a local group for systems & network administrators in the Seattle and Pacific northwest areas (North Western Washington). We are a local chapter of SAGE, but SAGE / USENIX membership is not a requirement. We sponsor a regular monthly meeting open to the public on second Thursday at 7 p.m. This is a reminder & announcement of the next meeting. Next meeting: Thursday September 11, 7:00 PM Topic: Service Level Agreements Presenter: D. Matthew Lehman Location: Department of Molecular Biotechnology University of Washington K-Wing room K343 Web Site: http://cellworks.washington.edu/sage Additional notes: This month's technical speaker is a true from the trenches System Administration veteran. Matthew is a new addition to our local talent pool. His current day job is being the Senior Network Engineer for Seitel Leeds & Associates, a Seattle based consulting firm. He has over 9 years experience as a Unix systems administrator and 5 years of experience as a network engineer from projects as small as 2 SPARCs with an Internet connection to managing a global network spanning more than 30 countries. In his current capacity, he is responsible for providing network design, network security, and network management services. Meeting Agenda: 1) SSG Business, introductions, and open floor (~30 mins) 2) Presentation: "Service Level Agreements (AKA You can't do that now!)" by D. Matthew Lehman, Senior Network Engineer, Seitel Leeds & Associates 3) Closing Feedback and discussion of future topics of interest. Speaker nomination for future meetings. 4) Dinner Social hour for those wishing to attend (not sponsored, you have to buy your own meals, sorry...) Location to be decided by attendees. This will be a wonderful opportunity to schmooze with System Administrators from all over town. Check out our Web site for more information: http://cellworks.washington.edu/sage/ A future "Topics for Presentations" sign up sheet will be at the meeting for any one to list a topic they'd like to have presented. In addition the sheet will also have a place for others (or the requester) to take up the challenge. First come - first serve style for the meeting dates. Cheers, Leeland -- //Leeland Artra University of Washington //Senior Systems Administrator Box 357730 Rm. K343 //Dept of Molecular Biotechnology Seattle, Washington 98195-7730 //mailto:leeland@u.washington.edu phone:206.616.7233 fax:206.685.7301 --------------3D2A33DC2902 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="attachment" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="attachment" The following is a PGP digitally signed copy of this message. -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: 2.6.2 owGNVk2MHEcVdoisKAEjRcLYHJAfBsU7ZLZnZmd/PMNfZvYPY6+1ZBxsgkCq6a6Z rmx3VaeremcnCDiAgnMIp3BBSJEQVysCRA65kEAEEhISIuLKgZwRFxAQKRLfq+6e 3djEYjTanal59X6/73v9wqkfPnj61OrZ7/3xo9H3b732tZf+9sADd1598N2P/+fh h9fPP3f632LnR9/9/cvfmuwV5177189vr75w4Ynfvvjoued7b/3Obj37xtkPfOGR h4adXwx+PXjpM6/fevv2y7MLszcnn/tN9Fb84dmr/+j89RtP/+E7t9/5y0e+/M1P /+lXPz13fuWd54unv/74D878JHj07Rcv//jN018Z//nOxy68+6m/n//S42c/9Mrt f/7yZ5+888Fr44cSlwfuyJ3CazeX0ik9tc0zZx7B+0YsaSSFcwn+D3a3aTc3RUZL o9Fug5QlQYkJRUJTfzwxOdm5dTK19Bhp6WYmP4AXEaVKK+ty4UxuSWlyJ/wKHdG+ CNVEhaRN7uKZtI5ELoWlpet8QDdxInMNVzeFjZGfM7oR4JjNFkmEschgRmbic23S uHBl1i16arR9/cotOEhlOpY5nGScvzaIRLl8tlC5TKV2AbFXmxltUQz/NC0SkVNq tIuTOaVlf+DIZBJ1GF9KVowTZG80WRka1HMjLnIbiTkJRxuUBWlQ9xNBfd8QTukI 2T6GBmhT6NDH5+TZo5ZHrg5W3b1+4qh/HGEkUTTXRJ1Okzb67Tbt78GcytcNk6mw D6v8UIWSrslDmdBgijlzOFsa7ufS4pvM+7QV0B7mEssZbONU6MrVNbTYKaNhITOR uzrZPZPI0LdoqIyTYaxNYqbz4wSq11NaHaLvys351vEY7zG8unwTv1BuTEpXu6vd yuCmHNNIOdmn2Lms32qFMkkYXzaYLZwFMipaVkxl2TG8B1GkOG3AA7OWtn9iDn6m lyz5rBUjyGZSHKCTfkIuLyRNcqTBA3G51GEsLY08wL3rBaoRgA4l+id0Nay6h96T xgdRJcKQMUVeQdaJhPuYGZMAeV+EdVjkOR/xaJ8xY7jC4VhyS0rSaAVgXi+5Rdt6 qrRExky9kUR/EoxNRsy/gbUmVAJFN0nAT823sbAyIsDUFgljiSYqTzm6pBiUMxgT 9WguBagqjzKZK1QOlnElmOIRXNUkfw+xPZHXqouY8d13Kz0gWeUMP767WW6ekaGz bGVTkST8YYVG+4MnNy3NFPgvNF1heMIFJ65hXraSCS20mHIZgqaJGfOgq0A2A7P4 l9RAJVwML9027hfaIS+Lkq9oAhDgpO56KDIokZs3Cb1G48ELlgI1Rt+4xcj1UEXs sw4SSaummuVyERZ8yL0Pbkh96tMsKW5LLtoaKiWlQUqpI1EBtNMgaCwNC4teWUxQ IWkTFb5wW7r2CjRJDPJa+jYqwyxsA3dXGjWhS8aWDLp4fwmgpcHVAX3VFOiBvgT8 sbJBvbSZfaJxsbIZz+/Vh+b7YbJ5FyCZMgtI4ku3QZuJsaWasvcd2I1FeOCLi5QN C2t5zMDSpHAFz5DFzINLMRywFYLq7qhirjboQklInld1r1JN3/HVBm0pQCivb3JG CcVMSr7iYmMlYOc1hdmKajGYuku8Mar1IKMmzdGwWBxyalg3c/6OBTSrZS2VIsG0 YJzPgyBoLGTU20ugJ1QR2DieV2HkAhZeomYKdBjzipsZ3haTIsHYMyzFQrOUwosN 49SY52TJlP+lTrxzPdOYW57eDhlWYTZjiY4bbErOnFUWGl2C3dNGaXxMTwLp/xLg ViW/9QQu3ihHx35PgtNeJOYP4enBxpjSccXO693xvp14hcH20L7ZieKHhBIRbDm/ FOHswP/mB5JVOy0qeV7rLzyx3xPBMKHqiqAsEWFZvIEV+rbkESH9I4J/CGn4nQ+s wRGS5t/w3JFAxqcyoB2VW5aoVNIy66ot2Y54bl5JyImqIPJuMW8MAgFZSEahcU5x gOVlwt9Wqzqh0UwCeJrued1nu+J2yc9RJdrvQYa/PTRH1F3b2ICGPIlNUG3dVgub /n47nupHuOaJiNS73OmtLbMz7yMVKnGmb8vMnyjuAgtRFmOi/ZX2erDeWQ82Vrpd moij8uDyWgA/He9of3efn7PoQM77/qDTXlltDQdrw97q9hZ1er21VnujtdKmult7 waJhn32/+J/3rq7KOaaFCeZZDmUp/W90qbtBvTXqDGlrSIMu9Xao0yba6tBwm1bw d5N2hrS9Se0OrXPL/gs= =Pmiq -----END PGP MESSAGE----- --------------3D2A33DC2902-- From sage-members-owner Fri Sep 12 13:10:55 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA06510 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epx.cis.umn.edu (root@epx.cis.umn.edu [128.101.83.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA06501 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:10:49 -0700 (PDT) From: djb@epx.cis.umn.edu Received: by epx.cis.umn.edu; Fri, 12 Sep 97 15:07:14 -0500 Message-Id: <0013419a0f2016354@epx.cis.umn.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 15:07:14 -0500 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: TCSA meeting September 18 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The Twin Cities System Administrators (TCSA) group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to system and network administrators in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota. The meetings are free and open to the public. TCSA meetings are on the third Thursday of each month at 7:00 pm. This month we will meet at the University of Minnesota Supercomputing Institute located at Hwy I-35W and Washington Ave. Next Meeting: September 18, 1997: University of Minnesota Supercomputing Institute Barry Schaudt and Michael Olesen from the Supercomputing Institute will talk about the Institute and give a tour of the facility. Tentative Meeting Schedule October 16, 1997: Usenet News (preview of LISA talk) November 20, 1997: Location of the University of Minnesota Supercomputing Institute: 1200 Washington Avenue South Minneapolis, MN 55415 http://www.msi.umn.edu/ Directions to the University of Minnesota Supercomputing Institute: See http://www2.msi.umn.edu/miscdocs/directions.html - From I-94 westbound: Exit at 5th Street, turn right onto 11th Avenue, turn right on Washington Avenue, left onto 12th Avenue - From I-94 eastbound: Exit I-35W northbound, take exit 122 (3rd Street, U of M), turn left at the light, cross over 35W, turn right on 12th Avenue - From I-35W northbound: Take exit 122 (3rd Street, U of M), turn left at the light, cross over 35W, turn right on 12th Avenue - From I-35W southbound: Take Washington Avenue exit, turn right at the light, right again at 12th Avenue. Parking Notes: - Parking will be street parking only. - Meters are enforced until 10 pm. - A Twins game is scheduled that evening, so come early as parking in that area may be hard to find around 7 pm. Dinner at a nearby restaurant before the meeting is a suggestion. - Go to the main door of MSI, ring the bell and tell them that you are there for the TCSA meeting. For more information on TCSA, check out our web site: http://www.tcsa.org/ To subscribe to the TCSA mailing list (from a Unix system): echo "subscribe tcsa" | mailx majordomo@tcsa.org For any other information, please send email to: info@tcsa.org or contact: Dave Bianchi (612) 644-7843 -- Dave Bianchi Pencom System Administration At: Honeywell CAS-SPO djb@epx.cis.umn.edu djb@psa.pencom.com djb@cfsmo.honeywell.com Home: 612-644-7843 Pager: 612-818-7162 Honeywell: 612-957-4532 From sage-members-owner Mon Sep 15 12:13:30 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA16647 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kiowa.wildstar.net (kiowa.wildstar.net [198.203.196.143]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA16638 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (falcon@localhost) by kiowa.wildstar.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA18856 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:12:24 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:12:24 -0500 (CDT) From: "R. Wyatt" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: establishing procedures Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hello all, I currently work in a test laboratory. The one problem I find out is sometimes the customers decided to reload a machine without informing me. I was wondering what would the best way to go to set up some kind of logging procedure that keeps me informed, but doesn't impose on the customer. Randy Wyatt Systems Engineer Information Industries Inc, From sage-members-owner Tue Sep 16 06:42:17 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA17751 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 06:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from abbott.compusa.com (firewall-user@abbott.compusa.com [198.22.121.101]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA17742 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 06:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by abbott.compusa.com; id AA183827316; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:41:56 -0500 Received: from unknown(172.24.64.98) by abbott.compusa.com via smap (3.2) id xma018372; Tue, 16 Sep 97 08:41:41 -0500 Received: (from gsamek@localhost) by postit.compusa.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA24706; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:32:26 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:32:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Gary Samek To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: amd for aix4? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I have been looking for amd ports to aix 4. I was wondering if anyone here might know if this is available. The latest that I can find is amd 5.3 beta. I would very much appreciate any good leads, thanks. - Gary Samek From sage-members-owner Tue Sep 16 10:00:53 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA00580 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stokely.com (stokely.stokely.com [204.188.150.18]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA00569 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from celestial.stokely.com by stokely.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03159; Tue, 16 Sep 97 09:57:12 PDT Received: by celestial.stokely.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA27143; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:57:09 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:57:09 -0700 From: celeste@celestial.stokely.com (Celeste Stokely) Message-Id: <199709161657.JAA27143@celestial.stokely.com> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Q's for LISA'97 panel "Is SysAdm a Dead-End Career?" X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk At LISA'97, there will be a panel discussion "Is System Administration a Dead-End Career?" Help us make sure your concerns are discussed! (This session is Friday, October 31, 2-3:30pm.) The panel members will be a System Administration consultant (Hal Pomeranz, Deer Run Associates), a Systems Manager (Wendy Nather, Swiss Bank Warburg) and an IS manager (Bill Howell, Glaxo Wellcome, Inc.). I'll be the moderator. The panel members have different opinions on Sysadm career paths and we expect some lively discussion! Each panel member will give a 5-minute talk on their opinion of System Administration as a career, then they'll answer your questions. We invite all of the SAGE members to submit questions for the panel in advance. Your names will absolutely not be used, so feel free to ask anything on the topic. You can find out how to deal with the chaos, the users, the vendors, the systems, the politics, the monetary rewards, the training, the personal growth, the "life" or anything else. Mail your panel questions to sage-career-panel@stokely.com and I'll compile the list. If we have time remaining after answering all the mail-in questions, we'll then take questions from the conference floor. Thanks for helping to make LISA'97 a success! See you in San Diego! ..Celeste Stokely, LISA'97 co-chair Stokely Consulting, 211 Thompson Square, Mountain View CA 94043 celeste@stokely.com - Voice: 650.967.6898 - FAX: 650.967.0160 http://www.stokely.com - Home of Unix Serial Port & Sysadm Resources From sage-members-owner Tue Sep 16 18:36:14 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA03474 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA03465 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from watsol.cc.columbia.edu by relay1.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: watsol.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.39.139]) id QQdhic20067; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from melissa@localhost) by watsol.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA06306; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:26:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 21:26:14 EDT From: Melissa Metz To: "R. Wyatt" Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: establishing procedures In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:12:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > ... reload a machine without informing me. I was wondering what > would the best way to go to set up some kind of logging procedure > that keeps me informed, but doesn't impose on the customer. In the machine's boot scripts (e.g. rc.local or init.d/something) have it send you mail with a timestamp. If you also have cron touch a timestamp file every minute, it can give you a downtime (by checking that file before restarting cron). If you teach them to use shutdown correctly, they can even log the reason they rebooted and have that mailed too. We put all this info in /usr/adm/shutdownlog via syslog and send a tail of that on reboot. Melissa Metz Unix Systems Group From sage-members-owner Wed Sep 17 12:28:19 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03197 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yosemite.main.gnac.com (firewall-user@yosemite.main.gnac.com [198.151.248.221]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA03157 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yosemite.main.gnac.com; id MAA20640; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tweety.main.gnac.com(192.168.1.20) by yosemite.main.gnac.com via smap (3.2) id xma020638; Wed, 17 Sep 97 12:20:22 -0700 Received: from tweety.main.gnac.com (localhost.main.gnac.com [127.0.0.1]) by tweety.main.gnac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/GNAC-GW-2.1) with ESMTP id MAA05874; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709171923.MAA05874@tweety.main.gnac.com> To: baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@usenix.org Cc: bigmac@baylisa.org Subject: BayLISA: Upcoming meetings Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:23:55 -0700 From: Bryan McDonald Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk =============================================================== Our apologies for the late notice and change, we just secured a speaker for this weeks meeting. =============================================================== The BayLISA group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to systems and network administrators. The meetings are free and open to the public. Please feel free to redistribute this meeting announcement. BayLISA holds monthly meetings on the third Thursday of each month at 7:30 PM PST. We meet at Cisco Building J in San Jose, on Tasman Drive near First street. See www.baylisa.org for more information. The meetings are also broadcast via MBONE. Schedule ======== September 18, 1997: Hal Pomeranz, DNS/Sendmail October 15, 1997: Possible topic: To Be Announced November 20, 1997: Perl and Java, Larry Wall BayLISA Board elections [Schedule subject to change] For further information on BayLISA, check out our web site: http://www.baylisa.org/ To get further information on the meeting location, you can also ftp it from ftp.baylisa.org:/BayLISA/location For any other information, please send email to: info@baylisa.org If you have any questions, please contact me or the info alias listed above. =============================================================================== Bryan McDonald bigmac@baylisa.org President president@baylisa.org BayLISA http://www.baylisa.org =============================================================================== From sage-members-owner Wed Sep 17 18:16:12 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA25390 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from macsch.com (draco.macsch.com [192.73.8.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA25372 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bootes.is.macsch.com by macsch.com (5.61/MSC-960531) id AA05238; Wed, 17 Sep 97 18:12:30 -0700 Received: from canismajor.is.macsch.com by bootes.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSCbootes.950222) id AA06200; Wed, 17 Sep 97 18:13:33 PDT Received: by canismajor.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSC.TW.SunOS.1.02) id AA21214; Wed, 17 Sep 97 18:12:34 PDT From: "Todd Williams" Message-Id: <9709171812.ZM21212@canismajor.is.macsch.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:12:33 -0700 In-Reply-To: Gary Samek "amd for aix4?" (Sep 16, 8:32) References: X-Face: "FF3Li6k/|j$-t~Ut~7Tcrqj{YOlB#Kqid0f^}/Hq>yDnjmBRW5bJ\@EwsJ(jeU]B@?t6u'w:Z"C{8$}6kT+!sX[m.HgO{xR7q3>G-_*XwN_twn-d4&S!^or?@79qDeoMX_CS)_/lGAq9_P{9SFa5"!uAO(!,!$:{bQ^4|OAb-q{Pb'tkE^oRm_Wuecl0m4!_USKsHC/#$b_L-*$^T-Vy+_2io@[b?|Ls!_KSFXy!3bbJNxuJqm8$tQ&)090BBF-tx; ^{)[*W,Q\>vEva?wi0FpG/]oa^*& X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95) To: Gary Samek , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: amd for aix4? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sep 16, 8:32, Gary Samek wrote: > I have been looking for amd ports to aix 4. Amd runs on the IBM SP-1 and SP-2 (supercomputers). IBM provides it. Unfortunately, that fact may not help you much. I figure it's a special port by some internal IBM group. Todd Williams Manager, UNIX and Comm. Systems todd@macsch.com (213)259-4973 MacNeal-Schwendler Corp. ("MSC"), 815 Colorado Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90041 geek n. : a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usu. includes biting the head off a live chicken or snake -Webster's New Collegiate From sage-members-owner Thu Sep 18 03:43:29 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA24999 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 03:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA24990 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 03:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (obie-5.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.5.129]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id FAA07344; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:39:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199709181039.FAA07344@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: "Todd Williams" cc: Gary Samek , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: amd for aix4? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:12:33 PDT." <9709171812.ZM21212@canismajor.is.macsch.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:39:48 -0500 From: Gene Rackow Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk IBM is dropping support for AMD on those systems and moving towards using the standard automounter supplied by the base AIX system. --Gene "Todd Williams" made the following keystrokes: >On Sep 16, 8:32, Gary Samek wrote: >> I have been looking for amd ports to aix 4. > >Amd runs on the IBM SP-1 and SP-2 (supercomputers). IBM provides it. >Unfortunately, that fact may not help you much. I figure it's a special >port by some internal IBM group. > >Todd Williams Manager, UNIX and Comm. Systems todd@macsch.com (213)259-49 > 73 >MacNeal-Schwendler Corp. ("MSC"), 815 Colorado Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 900 > 41 >geek n. : a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usu. >includes biting the head off a live chicken or snake -Webster's New Collegia > te > From sage-members-owner Sat Sep 20 07:55:14 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA28148 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 07:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kiowa.wildstar.net (kiowa.wildstar.net [198.203.196.143]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA28139 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 07:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (falcon@localhost) by kiowa.wildstar.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA30786 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:53:46 -0500 Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:53:45 -0500 (CDT) From: "R. Wyatt" Reply-To: "R. Wyatt" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: a question and answer list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I have been with Usenix for such a short time and sage has been one of the best resources in my career. 1.) taught me to write a resume, and 2) helped with technical questions. The only problem is I still don't know all that I should. I often turn to this list for an answer. I know some may feel that the questions are stupid. I am wondering is this list good to ask questions upon or if there was another list would some of the more experienced members actually answer our questions. Randy Wyatt From sage-members-owner Sun Sep 21 08:04:41 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA11100 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 08:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stokely.com (stokely.stokely.com [204.188.150.18]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA11091 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 08:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from celestial.stokely.com by stokely.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11598; Sun, 21 Sep 97 08:01:03 PDT Received: by celestial.stokely.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA21115; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 08:00:56 -0700 Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 08:00:56 -0700 From: celeste@celestial.stokely.com (Celeste Stokely) Message-Id: <199709211500.IAA21115@celestial.stokely.com> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a question and answer list Cc: falcon@kiowa.wildstar.net X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Randy Wyatt (falcon@kiowa.wildstar.net) writes: -... -The only problem is I still -don't know all that I should. I often turn to this list for an answer. I -know some may feel that the questions are stupid. I am wondering is this -list good to ask questions upon or if there was another list would some of -the more experienced members actually answer our questions. Randy, there are many places to get help. You're welcome to use sage-members@usenix.org, but there are many other places. Usenet Newsgroups are a great way to find out information. My personal favorites that I read every day for Unix sysadm info are: comp.sys.sun.admin, comp.unix.solaris,comp.sys.sun.apps,comp.sys.sun.hardware, comp.sys.sun.misc, comp.unix.admin, comp.org.usenix, news.answers, comp.answers, comp.dcom.modems, comp.protocols.nfs Then, there are LOTS of Unix-related FAQs. I've compiled a list of all I can find and have them linked at http://www.stokely.com/unix.sysadm.resources/index.html with the Sun-specific FAQs at http://www.stokely.com/unix.sysadm.resources/faqs.s.html#faq.link.sun Look for the Sun Managers FAQ in that last URL. It tells you how to join that mailing list for urgent (urgent only, please) questions. But, just reading the list every day teaches me a lot. Beyond that, there is an amazing amount of information in vendor documentation. (What? Read the docs?) I'm absolutely in love with Sun's Answerbook, http://docs.sun.com, and Sunsolve. About 75% of the Sun questions I have are answered in 1 of those 3 places-- worth the cost of a support contract! (docs.sun.com is currently free.) I'm sure that other Unix vendors have similar tools and websites, but I'm primarily in the Sun business. ..Celeste Stokely, Unix System Administration Consultant Stokely Consulting, 211 Thompson Square, Mountain View CA 94043 celeste@stokely.com - Voice: 650.967.6898 - FAX: 650.967.0160 http://www.stokely.com - Home of Unix Serial Port & Sysadm Resources From sage-members-owner Sun Sep 21 09:51:00 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA16765 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 09:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raptor.ns.net (root@raptor.ns.net [204.75.146.23]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA16756 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 09:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ippp35.ns.net (ippp35.ns.net [207.159.0.54]) by raptor.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA00049 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 09:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709211647.JAA00049@raptor.ns.net> X-Sender: pjs@Mail-1.ns.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 09:44:05 -0700 To: SAGE-Members@usenix.org From: Peter Stoddard Subject: Ultra Wide Hard Drives Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We are going to purchase some ultrawide controllers for our Sparc workstations, and so I asked the salesman how I can be sure I'm getting ultrawide-compliant hard drives. He said it was easy to tell if a hard drive is compliant with ultrawide technology ... it says so on the box. Advertising on the box aside, my question is: what is it about a hard drive that makes it ultra-wide compatible? Or are all hard drives compatible? Peter Stoddard System Administrator Environmental Monitoring and Pest Management Branch California Department of Pesticide Regulation Peter Stoddard PGP ID A11FD695 2220 Marshall Way, Sacramento, CA 95818 (916)324-4078 From sage-members-owner Sun Sep 21 11:24:29 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA21453 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from su-mail-relay1.bbnplanet.com (su-mail-relay1.bbnplanet.com [131.119.246.7]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21443 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ankh ([199.103.225.170]) by su-mail-relay1.bbnplanet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA27576; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970921142011.009d2860@sa.bbnplanet.com> X-Sender: jco@sa.bbnplanet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:20:11 -0400 To: Peter Stoddard , SAGE-Members@usenix.org From: John Orthoefer Subject: Re: Ultra Wide Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <199709211647.JAA00049@raptor.ns.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Well this is from the Linux SCSI how-to: leftOver the years, SCSI has evolved, with new revisions of the standard introducing higher transfer rates, methods to increase throughput, standardized commands for new devices, and new commands for previously supported devices. In and of themselves, the revision levels don't really mean anything. Excepting minor things like SCSI-II not allowing the single initiator option of SCSI-I, SCSI is backwards compatible, with new features being introduced as options and not mandatory. So, the decision to call a SCSI adapter SCSI, SCSI-II, or SCSI-III is almost entirely a marketing one. Now I can't find out if this holds true for Ultra Wide SCSI. But I bet it does. So reading the box doesn't tell you anything would be my guess. johno At 09:44 AM 9/21/97 -0700, Peter Stoddard wrote: >We are going to purchase some ultrawide controllers for our Sparc >workstations, and so I asked the salesman how I can be sure I'm getting >ultrawide-compliant hard drives. He said it was easy to tell if a hard >drive is compliant with ultrawide technology ... it says so on the box. > >Advertising on the box aside, my question is: what is it about a hard drive >that makes it ultra-wide compatible? Or are all hard drives compatible? > >Peter Stoddard >System Administrator >Environmental Monitoring and Pest Management Branch >California Department of Pesticide Regulation > > > >Peter Stoddard < PGP ID A11FD695 >2220 Marshall Way, Sacramento, CA 95818 (916)324-4078 > > > From sage-members-owner Thu Oct 2 15:48:47 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA14893 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yosemite.main.gnac.com (firewall-user@yosemite.main.gnac.com [198.151.248.221]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA14855 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yosemite.main.gnac.com; id PAA04232; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tweety.main.gnac.com(192.168.1.20) by yosemite.main.gnac.com via smap (3.2) id xma004230; Thu, 2 Oct 97 15:37:53 -0700 Received: from tweety.main.gnac.com (localhost.main.gnac.com [127.0.0.1]) by tweety.main.gnac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/GNAC-GW-2.1) with ESMTP id PAA09648; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710022243.PAA09648@tweety.main.gnac.com> To: baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@usenix.org, rem-conf@es.net Cc: bigmac@baylisa.org Subject: BayLISA: Upcoming meetings Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 15:43:49 -0700 From: Bryan McDonald Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The BayLISA group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to systems and network administrators. The meetings are free and open to the public. Please feel free to redistribute this meeting announcement. BayLISA holds monthly meetings on the third Thursday of each month at 7:30 PM PST. We meet at Cisco Building J in San Jose, on Tasman Drive near First street. See www.baylisa.org for more information. The meetings are also broadcast via MBONE. [Note: We will be back in the usual place in Building J for the upcoming meetings, our appologies for the confusion caused by the changed room at the September meeting.] Schedule ======== October 16: Software Configuration Management -- Lessons Learned, Steve Harris Thursday, October 16, 1997, 7:30 PM: Software Configuration Management (SCM) has evolved from early methodologies and tools (e.g.: SCCS) to high-end SCM systems which support a variety of development process models. Two and a half years ago, my organization purchased ClearCase, a high-end SCM tool. Before making the purchase, we evaluated most of the major SCM tools then available for our platform (SPARC, SunOS). Since then, we have had our share of learning pains as we deployed the tool, trained our users, and developed our SCM process; all the while continuing to ship software to our customers. This talk will describe: (1) our experiences evaluating SCM tools, and (2) some of the lessons we learned over the past couple years working with ClearCase. It will focus on the high-level changes to our software development culture rather than on the low-level specifics of the tool we chose. November 20: Larry Wall [Schedule subject to change] For further information on BayLISA, check out our web site: http://www.baylisa.org/ To get further information on the meeting location, you can also ftp it from ftp.baylisa.org:/BayLISA/location For any other information, please send email to: info@baylisa.org If you have any questions, please contact me or the info alias listed above. =============================================================================== Bryan McDonald bigmac@baylisa.org President president@baylisa.org BayLISA http://www.baylisa.org =============================================================================== - ------- End of Forwarded Message ------- End of Forwarded Message From sage-members-owner Sun Oct 5 20:06:18 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA13609 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 20:06:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost2.cac.washington.edu (mailhost2.cac.washington.edu [140.142.33.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA13600 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 20:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from u.washington.edu (garm.mbt.washington.edu [128.95.231.73]) by mailhost2.cac.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP id UAA23774 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 20:02:43 -0700 Message-ID: <343854D3.ADE6A07@u.washington.edu> Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 20:02:43 -0700 From: Leeland Artra Organization: Cellworks Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Seattle SAGE Group October 9th Meeting - Randal Schwartz K069 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Greetings, Its time for the next Seattle Sage Group meeting. However, this one is really special. Read on: The Seattle SAGE Group (SSG) is a local group for systems & network administrators in the Seattle and Pacific northwest areas (North Western Washington). We are a local chapter of SAGE, but SAGE / USENIX membership is not a requirement. We sponsor a regular monthly meeting open to the public on second Thursday at 7 p.m. This is a reminder & announcement of the next meeting. Next meeting: Thursday October 9, 7:00 PM Topic: "Just Another Convicted Hacker!" Presenter: Randal L. Schwartz Location: Department of Molecular Biotechnology University of Washington K-Wing room K069 (ONE THE -1 LEVEL!!) Web Site: http://cellworks.washington.edu/sage Friends of Randal L. Schwartz web site: http://www.lightlink.com/spacenka/fors/ Additional notes: This month's technical speaker is a, very real, convicted felon and co-System Administrator (and to a lot of SAGE members "one of the good guys"). You may know him better as the author of two Nutshell books for O'Reilly and Associates: "Learning Perl" (aka the Llama Book) Available in English, Japanese, French, and German; and "Programming Perl" (aka the Camel Book). Randal also writes a bi-monthly column for Unix Review. Plus you may have his monthly column for Web Techniques magazine (from the people that brought us Dr. Dobbs Journal). However, Randal Schwartz, in late July 1995, was convicted, by a jury, of three felony counts under Oregon's Computer Crime Law. The charges related to his activities while working as a consultant (Systems Administrator) at an Intel Corporation facility in Beaverton, Oregon. His sentence issued in September includes 5 years of probation, 480 hours of community Service, 90 days of deferred (cancelable) jail time, and $68k of restitution to Intel. His legal bill exceeded $170k by the end of 1995. Randal Schwartz is respected on the Internet for his contributions to the progress of the Perl programming language through his two books, long-time participation in the comp.lang.perl(.misc) newsgroup, moderation of the newer comp.lang.perl.announce newsgroup, and training courses. The purpose of his talk is to describe both the events, his mistakes and the problems with modern computer crime laws. This talk is to help prevent what happened to him from happening to any other well-intentioned computing professional. Preventing similar incidents requires insight into this unforeseen application of a law that is intended to protect organizations against thieves, spies, and casual intruders to the enforcement of a corporation's internal rules of operation. Randal has agreed to give us the rare opportunity to hear the entire store with all the nitty-gritty details. This means that he will need a little over 3 hours. In order to provide such a meeting we are dispensing with normal SSG business and after a short introduction the stage will be all Randal's. To make sure we do not die of thirst or malnutrition SAGE is sponsoring a refreshments table with soft drinks, and snacks available during the 20 min half-time break. This is a powerful presentation that you might consider bring others not normally in attendance (spouses, bosses, etc.). This is FREE and open to the public. Meeting Agenda: 7:00pm Opening Comments and Introduction (Leeland Artra) 7:05pm Presentation: " Just Another Convicted Hacker!" (AKA But, for the grace of God there go I!) Randal L. Schwartz (http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/) 8:20pm Break with refreshments 8:40pm Continued Presentation 10:30pm Closing This will be a wonderful opportunity. Check out our Web site for more information: http://cellworks.washington.edu/sage/ Cheers, Leeland -- //Leeland Artra University of Washington //Senior Systems Administrator Box 357730 Rm K343 //Dept of Molecular Biotechnology Seattle, Washington 98195-7730 //mailto:leeland@u.washington.edu phone:206.616.7233 fax:206.685.7301 From sage-members-owner Tue Oct 7 19:59:44 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA19676 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.nando.net (storm.nando.net [152.52.2.139]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA19667 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA20784 for ncsa-announce-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:58:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.nando.net: majordomo set sender to owner-ncsa-announce@nando.net using -f Received: from localhost (flanh@localhost) by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA20777; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:57:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:57:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Heather Flanagan Reply-To: Heather Flanagan To: ncsa-announce@nando.net cc: ncsa-discussion@nando.net Subject: North Carolina System Administrators (NC*SA) meeting - October 13, 1997 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The next meeting of the North Carolina System Administrators organization (NC*SA) will be Monday, October 13, 1997, at 6pm. Details about the meeting, our technical program and directions to our meeting location are provided in this note. We hope to see you there!! North Carolina System Administration Interest Group DNS: A Practical Perspective Monday, October 13, 1997 Research Triangle Institute Research Triangle Park, NC 6 PM - General Session Presenter: Gordon Galligher, Pencom Systems Adminiistration(PSA) "I am Director of Methods and Procedures with PSA, and have been with them since May of '94. I specialize in system and network design, firewall design and implementation, and am a systems administration generalist. I have been working on Unix machines and networks for the past 12 years. "I will be talking about the DNS: A Practical Perspective. It will cover how to use DNS and BIND in the real world. Anyone can read the O'Reilly book, this will cover the real gotchas that you might not get by reading the book. It will also cover some of the major differences in BIND v8, as well as using the DNS Server on NT." ============================== Our meetings are free and open to anyone with an interest in the topic of the evening. We will be providing food and drink for the evening. If you have any questions please contact: Amy K. Kreiling SAS Institute Inc. SAS Campus Drive Cary, NC 27513 (919) 677-8000 x5963 kreiling@unx.sas.com ============================== For information about the NC System Administrators group, contact our Majordomo mailing list server. The "ncsa-discussion" mailing list has been created to facilitate discussions of interest to system administrators from the state of North Carolina. Simply send email to "majordomo@nando.net": mail majordomo@nando.net Subject: subscribe ncsa-discussion After subscribing, Majordomo will send you the help file and info file for our mailing list. These files contain instructions for retrieving other files available to the NCSA organization (e.g. the presentation material from past technical programs are available for retrieval via Majordomo!!) ============================== Directions to Research Triangle Institute (http://www.rti.org/images/campus.gif) From I-40 west of RTP (e.g. Chapel Hill): Get onto I-40 heading east. Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham Freeway - North (towards Durham). Stay in right lane. Shift right as soon as possible after merging with traffic coming off I-40 westbound. Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road). At top of exit, turn to the left. (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you are going the wrong direction.) After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From I-40 east of RTP (e.g. Raleigh): Get onto I-40 heading west. Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham Freeway - North (towards Durham). Shift to rightmost lane as soon as possible Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis Road). At top of exit, turn to the left. (If you turn right and cross over the bridge, you are going the wrong direction.) After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. From north of RTP (e.g. Durham): Get onto NC-147 - Durham Freeway - south. Exit at the Cornwallis Road exit. At the top of the exit, turn left to cross over the bridge. After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main entrance. *********************************************************************** Heather Flanagan Associate Systems Programmer SAS Institute heflan@unx.sas.com (919)677-8000 x5522 From sage-members-owner Wed Oct 8 14:15:29 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14937 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epx.cis.umn.edu (root@epx.cis.umn.edu [128.101.83.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA14928 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:15:20 -0700 (PDT) From: djb@epx.cis.umn.edu Received: by epx.cis.umn.edu; Wed, 8 Oct 97 16:11:50 -0500 Message-Id: <001343bf715010071@epx.cis.umn.edu> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 97 16:11:50 -0500 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: TCSA meeting October 16 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The Twin Cities System Administrators (TCSA) group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to system and network administrators in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota. The meetings are free and open to the public. TCSA meetings are on the third Thursday of each month at 7:00 pm. We will meet at Park Place West (Hwys 394 and 100) at building Conference Room #1 located on the basement level (level P - Parking Level). Next Meeting: October 16, 1997: USENET News, Scott Fritchie Scott Fritchie from MRNet will talk about his work on USENET News. Scott will be giving this talk at LISA 97 later this month. Tentative Meeting Schedule November 20, 1997: Directions to Park Place West (6465 Wayzata Blvd): Take I394 to the Louisiana Ave. exit. Go east on Wayzata Blvd. (the frontage road on the south side of I394) to the entrance between Fuddruckers and Bennigan's. Proceed through the parking lot to the Park Place West building. Building Conference Room #1 is on the basement level (Level P - Parking level). For more information on TCSA, check out our web site: http://www.tcsa.org/ To subscribe to the TCSA mailing list (from a Unix system): echo "subscribe tcsa" | mailx majordomo@tcsa.org For any other information, please send email to: info@tcsa.org or contact: Dave Bianchi (612) 644-7843 -- Dave Bianchi Collective Technologies/PSA At: Honeywell CAS-SPO djb@epx.cis.umn.edu djb@psa.pencom.com djb@cfsmo.honeywell.com Home: 612-644-7843 Pager: 612-818-7162 Honeywell: 612-957-4532 From sage-members-owner Thu Oct 9 14:10:45 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA19172 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from firewall2.Lehman.COM (firewall.Lehman.COM [192.147.65.67]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19154 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.messaging-svcs2.lehman.com by firewall2.Lehman.COM (8.8.6/8.6.12) id RAA12532; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:07:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dsoprod1.dsoprod.lehman.com by relay.messaging-svcs2.lehman.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA25117; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mrbun.lehman.com by dsoprod1.dsoprod.lehman.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA29371; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mrbun.lehman.com (SMI-8.6/Lehman Bros. V1.5) id RAA08121; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:06:38 -0400 From: "Xev Gittler" Message-Id: <9710091706.ZM8119@mrbun.dsoprod.lehman.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:06:37 -0400 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95) To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Oct 14 NYSA Meeting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The New York System Administrators (NYSA) guild, a local chapter of SAGE, meets the second Tuesday every month to discuss topics of interest to system administrators in the New York City area. [Actually, its of interest to people outside the New York City area, but that would be a long commute]. The meetings are free and open to the public. Food and beverages are provided. The next meeting will be on Tuesday, October 14th at 6:15pm, at BoxHill Systems Corp, 161 6th Ave, 10th Floor (corner of Spring). [Subway directions: E or C to Spring street station, right around the corner.] This month's meeting will be on "NT Domain Engineering in the Real World", given by Chris Rouland. Chris is a Unix System Administrator who now designs the NT domain environment at Lehman. This talk will touch on a lot of the areas of concern, particularly for heterogeneous environments. This is an excellent talk for Unix adinistrators who want to have a better idea of the issues surrounding a large NT rollout. After the meeting, I'd like to get together with anyone interested, perhaps over drinks, to discuss the future of NYSA. (If you can't attend, but have input, let me know!) On November 11th, a representative from Sun will be in to discuss what's new in Solaris 2.6. For more information of NYSA, check out our web site @ www.nysa.org, or subscribe to our mailing list. by sending a subscribe message (the word subscribe in the body of the message) to majordomo@nysa.org. Xev Gittler xev@lehman.com From sage-members-owner Wed Oct 15 16:24:55 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA02897 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msg.ucsf.edu (msg.ucsf.EDU [128.218.69.41]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA02888 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (matt@localhost) by msg.ucsf.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA29687 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:20:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Harrington To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: need recommendations for trouble ticket software Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I need to get some software going to track trouble tickets. I know of GNATS and would like some opinions on this package as well as any others. Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Matt From sage-members-owner Wed Oct 15 18:05:41 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA08574 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from macsch.com (draco.macsch.com [192.73.8.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA08521 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [161.34.1.42] by macsch.com (5.61/MSC-960531) id AA12739; Wed, 15 Oct 97 18:01:34 -0700 Received: from canismajor.is.macsch.com by bootes.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSCbootes.950222) id AA00626; Wed, 15 Oct 97 18:02:43 PDT Received: by canismajor.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSC.TW.SunOS.1.02) id AA21097; Wed, 15 Oct 97 18:01:51 PDT From: "Todd Williams" Message-Id: <9710151801.ZM21095@canismajor.is.macsch.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:01:51 -0700 In-Reply-To: Matt Harrington "need recommendations for trouble ticket software" (Oct 15, 16:20) References: X-Face: "FF3Li6k/|j$-t~Ut~7Tcrqj{YOlB#Kqid0f^}/Hq>yDnjmBRW5bJ\@EwsJ(jeU]B@?t6u'w:Z"C{8$}6kT+!sX[m.HgO{xR7q3>G-_*XwN_twn-d4&S!^or?@79qDeoMX_CS)_/lGAq9_P{9SFa5"!uAO(!,!$:{bQ^4|OAb-q{Pb'tkE^oRm_Wuecl0m4!_USKsHC/#$b_L-*$^T-Vy+_2io@[b?|Ls!_KSFXy!3bbJNxuJqm8$tQ&)090BBF-tx; ^{)[*W,Q\>vEva?wi0FpG/]oa^*& X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95) To: Matt Harrington Subject: Re: need recommendations for trouble ticket software Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Oct 15, 16:20, Matt Harrington wrote: > I need to get some software going to track trouble tickets. I know of > GNATS and would like some opinions on this package as well as any others. You might want to check out the PROBLEM MANAGEMENT TOOLS SUMMARY, (part 3 of the comp.software.config-mgmt FAQ) at: http://www.iac.honeywell.com/Pub/Tech/CM/PMTools.html As for me, we use the Scopus stuff. If you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it. Our customer support folks purchased it for their own use, but the config mgmt types also use it to track problems in not-yet-released products, and we also use it in MIS for our own internal helpdesk. It's complex and customizable, and bigtime overkill if all you need is a simple trouble ticket system. Some other big rich companies I know use Remedy. Oh, I'm sorry. I just noticed the .edu at the end of your address. I don't think you'd be interested in expensive production tools like this. Todd Williams Manager, Computer and Communication Systems MacNeal-Schwendler Corp. ("MSC"), 815 Colorado Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90041 todd.williams@macsch.com (213)259-4973 http://www.macsch.com/ geek n. : a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usu. includes biting the head off a live chicken or snake -Webster's New Collegiate ******** still looking to hire an experienced AIX guy in LA !!!!! ******** From sage-members-owner Wed Oct 15 19:13:31 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA12526 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from east.isi.edu (east.isi.edu [38.245.76.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA12517 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nemein.east.isi.edu by east.isi.edu (8.8.5/5.61+local-24) id ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:08:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:08:59 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: Forrest Houston To: Matt Harrington cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: need recommendations for trouble ticket software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: fhouston@east.isi.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I know it wasn't really designed for it, but I'm using HyperNews to do this. "HyperNews is a cross between the hypermedia of the WWW and Usenet News." from the web site below. Since I'm the only support person though I can maintain tracking and "control" over the jobs fairly easily through it. I doubt it would scale well to a larger environment. If you are interested check it out: http://union.ncsa.uiuc.edu/HyperNews/get/hypernews.html Just my $0.02 Forrest On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Matt Harrington wrote: > > > Hi, > > I need to get some software going to track trouble tickets. I know of > GNATS and would like some opinions on this package as well as any others. > Any comments would be greatly appreciated. > > Matt > > > > > From sage-members-owner Wed Oct 15 20:49:27 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA17486 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acli.interlog.com (0@acli.interlog.com [198.53.146.23]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA17477 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acli@localhost by acli.interlog.com id <30209-11632>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:45:50 -0400 Message-ID: <19971015234543.63468@ada.acli.interlog.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:45:43 -0400 From: Ambrose Li To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: need recommendations for trouble ticket software References: <9710151801.ZM21095@canismajor.is.macsch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <9710151801.ZM21095@canismajor.is.macsch.com>; from Todd Williams on Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 06:01:51PM -0700 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 06:01:51PM -0700, Todd Williams wrote: > On Oct 15, 16:20, Matt Harrington wrote: > > I need to get some software going to track trouble tickets. I know of > > GNATS and would like some opinions on this package as well as any others. > > You might want to check out the PROBLEM MANAGEMENT TOOLS SUMMARY, > (part 3 of the comp.software.config-mgmt FAQ) at: > http://www.iac.honeywell.com/Pub/Tech/CM/PMTools.html One tool which is not mentioned in the above URL is the CGI-based PTS (http://www.homeport.org/~shevett/pts/). I use it at work. Personally I think it is better than nothing but it not an optimal tracking tool (no deadlines, etc). > Oh, I'm sorry. I just noticed the .edu at the end of your address. I don't > think you'd be interested in expensive production tools like this. I work in a .com, but my management won't be interested in expensive production tools either :-/ -- Ambrose Li [<- home ] http://www.interlog.com/~acli/~acli [ work ->] From sage-members-owner Wed Oct 15 22:21:58 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA21880 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yosemite.main.gnac.com (firewall-user@yosemite.main.gnac.com [198.151.248.221]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA21871 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yosemite.main.gnac.com; id WAA27563; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tweety.main.gnac.com(192.168.1.20) by yosemite.main.gnac.com via smap (3.2) id xma027556; Wed, 15 Oct 97 22:08:59 -0700 Received: from tweety.main.gnac.com (localhost.main.gnac.com [127.0.0.1]) by tweety.main.gnac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/GNAC-GW-2.1) with ESMTP id WAA13882; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710160517.WAA13882@tweety.main.gnac.com> To: baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@usenix.org Cc: bigmac@baylisa.org Subject: BayLISA: Upcoming meeting: Steve Harris on Software Configuration Management Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:17:01 -0700 From: Bryan McDonald Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk NOTE: Just a quick reminder of tomorrow nights speaker. Remember that tomorrow is the last day for board candidates to contact the current board and declare your candidacy. ----- The BayLISA group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to systems and network administrators. The meetings are free and open to the public. Please feel free to redistribute this meeting announcement. BayLISA holds monthly meetings on the third Thursday of each month at 7:30 PM PST. We meet at Cisco Building J in San Jose, on Tasman Drive near First street. See www.baylisa.org for more information. The meetings are also broadcast via MBONE. Schedule ======== October 16, 1997: Software Configuration Management -- Lessons Learned Steve Harris Thursday, October 16, 1997, 7:30 PM: Software Configuration Management (SCM) has evolved from early methodologies and tools (e.g.: SCCS) to high-end SCM systems which support a variety of development process models. Two and a half years ago, my organization purchased ClearCase, a high-end SCM tool. Before making the purchase, we evaluated most of the major SCM tools then available for our platform (SPARC, SunOS). Since then, we have had our share of learning pains as we deployed the tool, trained our users, and developed our SCM process; all the while continuing to ship software to our customers. This talk will describe: (1) our experiences evaluating SCM tools, and (2) some of the lessons we learned over the past couple years working with ClearCase. It will focus on the high-level changes to our software development culture rather than on the low-level specifics of the tool we chose. November 20, 1997: Perl and Java, Larry Wall BayLISA Board elections [Schedule subject to change] For further information on BayLISA, check out our web site: http://www.baylisa.org/ To get further information on the meeting location, you can also ftp it from ftp.baylisa.org:/BayLISA/location For any other information, please send email to: info@baylisa.org If you have any questions, please contact me or the info alias listed above. =============================================================================== Bryan McDonald bigmac@baylisa.org President president@baylisa.org BayLISA http://www.baylisa.org =============================================================================== ------- End of Forwarded Message From sage-members-owner Thu Oct 16 06:14:33 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA16000 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 06:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from assateague.lerc.nasa.gov ([139.88.35.25]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA15991 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 06:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ZoSo.lerc.nasa.gov by assateague.lerc.nasa.gov with ESMTP (NASA LeRC 8.7.4.1/2.01-main) id JAA13392; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:10:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ZoSo.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.8.6.1/2.00-local) id NAA09055; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:10:58 GMT From: Tony.Facca@lerc.nasa.gov (Tony Facca) Message-Id: <199710161310.NAA09055@ZoSo.lerc.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: need recommendations for trouble ticket software To: matt@msg.ucsf.edu (Matt Harrington) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Cc: sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: from "Matt Harrington" at Oct 15, 97 04:20:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Previously, Matt Harrington wrote: > > I need to get some software going to track trouble tickets. I know of > GNATS and would like some opinions on this package as well as any others. > Any comments would be greatly appreciated. > You might want to take a look at Tower Concepts "Razor" product. We've been using it for several years and have been mostly satisfied with it. It's very easy to configure and customize. We use it primarily for problem tracking, but it can also handle revisiion control and team software development. Downloadable demo's are available from: http://www.tower.com Regards, Tony ***************************************************************************** Tony Facca * Right Now.. NASA Lewis Research Center * Your Memory is Getting Longer While tfacca@lerc.nasa.gov * Your Life is Getting Shorter ***************************************************************************** From sage-members-owner Thu Oct 16 07:25:32 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA19935 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from philabs.research.philips.com (philabs.research.philips.com [192.207.123.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA19926 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by philabs.research.philips.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id KAA27419; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:20:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: philabs.research.philips.com: smap set sender to using -f Received: from mailman.philabs.research.philips.com(130.140.67.12) by philabs.research.philips.com via smap (V1.3) id sma027411; Thu Oct 16 10:19:57 1997 Received: from frank (frank-cr.philabs.research.philips.com [130.140.67.10]) by mailman.philabs.research.philips.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA28318; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:19:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Murf X-Sender: jam@frank To: Matt Harrington cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: need recommendations for trouble ticket software In-Reply-To: <199710161310.NAA09055@ZoSo.lerc.nasa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, Tony Facca wrote: Previously, Matt Harrington wrote: > > I need to get some software going to track trouble tickets. I know of > GNATS and would like some opinions on this package as well as any others. > Any comments would be greatly appreciated. If you want free and small you can try queuemh. Its very very basic. Based on a shared MH Mail queue. It is however, fairly easy to hack on so you can work it into something you're more comfortable with. For instance we hacked on a crude Tk front end with basic file locking. It used to be available at the University of Colorado at Boulder. I'd also suggest poking around the Usenix web site and check out some of the proceedings from previous LISA conferences. This subject comes up quite a bit, and one of the common themes is that not one solution fits everyones needs. Murf -- John A. Murphy (better known as Erin's dad) jam@philabs.research.philips.com 345 Scarborough Road One one-trillionith of a surprise: picoboo Briarcliff Manor, NY 10510 millihellen: The beauty needed to launch 1 ship (914)945-6216 ** My views and opinions do not reflect those of my employer ** From sage-members-owner Thu Oct 16 08:20:58 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA23147 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway.tcs.com (tcsi.com [137.134.47.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA23138 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from almd-ms.tcs.com ([137.134.4.21]) by gateway.tcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.3) with ESMTP id IAA13151; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from worf.tcs.com (worf.tcs.com [137.134.4.57]) by almd-ms.tcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id IAA03672; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:17:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerry Carlin Received: (jerry@localhost) by worf.tcs.com (8.6.11/8.6.10) id IAA22430; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:17:26 -0700 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:17:26 -0700 Message-Id: <199710161517.IAA22430@worf.tcs.com> To: matt@msg.ucsf.edu, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: need recommendations for trouble ticket software Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We use a greatly hacked-up version of 'req' (email req@ccs.neu.edu) a public-domain perl-based tool. ftp from ftp.ccs.neu.edu:/pub/sysadmin If you're interested, I can send you what we have - little documentation, less warrenty:-) jerry > From sage-members-owner@usenix.ORG Wed Oct 15 18:14:41 1997 > From: Matt Harrington > To: sage-members@usenix.ORG > Subject: need recommendations for trouble ticket software > > > > Hi, > > I need to get some software going to track trouble tickets. I know of > GNATS and would like some opinions on this package as well as any others. > Any comments would be greatly appreciated. > > Matt > > > > From sage-members-owner Thu Oct 16 08:25:28 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA23532 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp14.netcom.com [163.179.3.18]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA23523 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by netcomsv.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.01)) id IAA06847 for sage-members@usenix.ORG; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:21:58 -0700 (PDT) >Received: by unisol.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06653; Thu, 16 Oct 97 08:09:38 PDT Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 08:09:38 PDT From: haral@unisol.com (Haral Tsitsivas) Message-Id: <9710161509.AA06653@unisol.com> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: need recommendations for trouble ticket software Content-Type: text Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We use GNATS and are happy with it. It is pretty easy to use and its simple file based architecture allows for customization. We allow customers to use it by setting it up to initiate trouble tickets over the web. --Haral Tsitsivas, UniSolutions Associates (http://www.unisol.com/) Voice: (714) 488-3960, Fax: (714) 443-5354, E-mail: haral@unisol.com From sage-members-owner Thu Oct 16 10:21:38 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA00375 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-gw2.BayNetworks.COM (ns2.BayNetworks.COM [134.177.3.16]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA00361 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns5.BayNetworks.COM ([141.251.211.49] (may be forged)) by smtp-gw2.BayNetworks.COM (8.8.6/BNET-97/07/07-E) with ESMTP id KAA15348 Received: from guitar.LanCity.COM (guitar.lancity.com [192.190.3.12]) by ns5.BayNetworks.COM (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA21959; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:13:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from u2 (u2 [192.190.3.208]) by guitar.LanCity.COM (8.8.6/BNET-97/07/07-I) with SMTP id NAA13742 Posted-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:16:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:16:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Lussier X-Sender: plussier@u2 Reply-To: plussier@LanCity.COM To: Matt Harrington cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: need recommendations for trouble ticket software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Matt Harrington wrote: > I need to get some software going to track trouble tickets. I know of > GNATS and would like some opinions on this package as well as any others. > Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Hi, Are you looking for commercial packages? If you're interested in GNUware (i.e. freely redistributable, GNU copyleft) there's a group of us continuing development of Remy Evard's req*. We call it ReqNG. See our web site at http://scuttlebutt.explore.com/reqng/ I'm currently using it here at Baynetwork's Data Over Cable Division, and have previously used the original version of req at 3Com very successfully. There are some bugs to be worked out, to be sure, but it's a great utility and really helps keep me organized. Some of the best features IMO, that Remy built in: perl based command line based e-mail based mh style folders The other advantage is there are various interfaces available to suit your own preferences: command line tk emacs several www based Also has a glimpse indexing hook into it and pretty decent man pages. We just released reqng-1.3.1 a couple of weeks ago. Seeya, Paul * Remy delivered a paper regarding req at one of USENIX cons called "Managing the Evergrowing To Do List" or something like that (I believe the paper is available on our web site). From sage-members-owner Thu Oct 16 10:22:15 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA00396 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zamboni.cs.wisc.edu (zamboni.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.162.15]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA00387 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs.wisc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zamboni.cs.wisc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA16664; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:18:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710161718.MAA16664@zamboni.cs.wisc.edu> To: Jerry Carlin cc: matt@msg.ucsf.edu, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: need recommendations for trouble ticket software In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:17:26 PDT." <199710161517.IAA22430@worf.tcs.com> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:18:39 -0500 From: David Parter Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We currently use a much-hacked version of req. I have been telling people here to look at rust, and most have adopted it. It looks really nice. The paper was given at the last LISA. Look at the Usenix web site for more info: http://www.usenix.org/publications/library/proceedings/lisa96/ruefenac.html --david From sage-members-owner Mon Oct 20 12:28:47 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA07303 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msg.ucsf.edu (msg.ucsf.EDU [128.218.69.41]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA07292 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (matt@localhost) by msg.ucsf.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02121 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:23:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Harrington To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: keeping track of inventory Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk What are people using to keep track of computer inventory? I'd like to get a database going of serial numbers, IP numbers, peripherals, locations, etc. Something like FileMaker Pro seems suitable. I'd like this to with with UNIX or Win95/NT. Any recommendations would be welcomed. Matt Harrington UC San Francisco From sage-members-owner Mon Oct 20 14:41:40 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA11996 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zamboni.cs.wisc.edu (zamboni.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.162.15]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA11986 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs.wisc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zamboni.cs.wisc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA02217; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:38:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710202138.QAA02217@zamboni.cs.wisc.edu> To: Matt Harrington cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: keeping track of inventory In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:23:41 PDT." Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:38:04 -0500 From: David Parter Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I've been thinking that someday we should do a LISA paper on our database... like many sites, ours is homegrown. in addition to information on the users, we have this for every part in our inventory database: cpuname: the computer that part is in room: the room it is in invnum: the inventory number of the part (either a university inventory number, for capital items, or our own number for non-capital items pdesc: part deescription serialnum: serial number ponum: the purchase order number salesnum: the vendor's sales order number vendor: the vendor's name cost: how much we paid purchasedate: when purchased warrentytill: when the warranty expires << EXTREMELY USEFUL pnotes: part notes (text) each item is linked to the "models" relation, which has: modelnum: model number mdesc: model description type: our catagories: CPU, board, disk, etc mfr: manufacturers name each computer is made up of multiple parts. Our "machines" relation has: cpuname: the hostname prime_user: who is the primary user (see the accounts info below) installed: Y/N if it is installed, should be up, etc billtype: we bill per computer mnotes: machine notes (text) room: where it is (automatically updates room for included parts) lock: everything is locked down. this is the lock number, so we know what keys to take with us to an office os: what os it is running (from a list constrained by cpu type. DecStations can't run SunOS) and then, the list of parts (from above) accounts: without going into too much detail, each account has a sponsor -- in our case, usually the professor who is paying a grad student, or special accounts for undergrad students, staff, etc. If I was making a computer inventory database from scratch, I'd include a way to track parts sent in for repair, swapped, etc. sometimes it is useful to be able to lookup a part that is giving problems and say "that part used to be in such-and-such a workstation, which had this problem before". hope this helps, --david From sage-members-owner Tue Oct 21 00:37:33 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA05223 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from macsch.com (draco.macsch.com [192.73.8.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA05207 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [161.34.1.42] by macsch.com (5.61/MSC-960531) id AA29874; Tue, 21 Oct 97 00:33:55 -0700 Received: from canismajor.is.macsch.com by bootes.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSCbootes.950222) id AA08235; Tue, 21 Oct 97 00:35:05 PDT Received: by canismajor.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSC.TW.SunOS.1.02) id AA13169; Tue, 21 Oct 97 00:34:14 PDT From: "Todd Williams" Message-Id: <9710210034.ZM13167@canismajor.is.macsch.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:34:13 -0700 In-Reply-To: David Parter "Re: keeping track of inventory" (Oct 20, 16:38) References: <199710202138.QAA02217@zamboni.cs.wisc.edu> X-Face: "FF3Li6k/|j$-t~Ut~7Tcrqj{YOlB#Kqid0f^}/Hq>yDnjmBRW5bJ\@EwsJ(jeU]B@?t6u'w:Z"C{8$}6kT+!sX[m.HgO{xR7q3>G-_*XwN_twn-d4&S!^or?@79qDeoMX_CS)_/lGAq9_P{9SFa5"!uAO(!,!$:{bQ^4|OAb-q{Pb'tkE^oRm_Wuecl0m4!_USKsHC/#$b_L-*$^T-Vy+_2io@[b?|Ls!_KSFXy!3bbJNxuJqm8$tQ&)090BBF-tx; ^{)[*W,Q\>vEva?wi0FpG/]oa^*& X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95) To: David Parter , Matt Harrington Subject: Re: keeping track of inventory Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Oct 20, 16:38, David Parter wrote: > I've been thinking that someday we should do a LISA paper on our database... I did, but it didn't get accepted this time. :-( We have just about every field you listed, plus a few more. Admittedly, we aren't quite "finished" (like we ever will be?). But we do have a working web interface. > If I was making a computer inventory database from scratch, I'd include > a way to track parts sent in for repair, swapped, etc. sometimes it is > useful to be able to lookup a part that is giving problems and say "that > part used to be in such-and-such a workstation, which had this problem > before". I think the latter is the biggest challenge! Database triggers that log changes might be key to solving that problem. How about "reports" to produce hosts tables, NIS maps, DNS maps, ethers maps, bootptab/dhcptab files, vendor inventory info for hardware maintenance contract renewal, disposition of RMA equipment, list of ordered equipment waiting to be *received*, etc. And don't forget some kind of interface to the help desk system so that we immediately know what kind of system the caller has. And what about tracking SOFTWARE, too? To respond to the original poster: It seems that many of us have developed homegrown solutions to handle various parts of this problem. None that I know of are easy to implement. We threw out small-time single-user ideas like FileMakerPro very early. We began to implement in Sybase, than later moved to Oracle. Several papers have already been published. Search the LISA archives. Most of the solutions I've seen are very site-specific. Good luck. Todd Williams Manager, Computer and Communication Systems MacNeal-Schwendler Corp. ("MSC"), 815 Colorado Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90041 todd.williams@macsch.com (213)259-4973 http://www.macsch.com/ geek n. : a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usu. includes biting the head off a live chicken or snake -Webster's New Collegiate From sage-members-owner Tue Oct 21 06:36:31 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA22876 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from firewall1.Lehman.COM (firewall.Lehman.COM [192.147.65.66]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA22867 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.messaging-svcs2.lehman.com by firewall1.Lehman.COM (8.8.6/8.6.12) id JAA07679; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:33:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dsoprod1.dsoprod.lehman.com by relay.messaging-svcs2.lehman.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA26424; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mrbun.lehman.com by dsoprod1.dsoprod.lehman.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA12479; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mrbun.lehman.com (SMI-8.6/Lehman Bros. V1.5) id JAA07130; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:32:20 -0400 From: "Xev Gittler" Message-Id: <9710210932.ZM7128@mrbun.dsoprod.lehman.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:32:19 -0400 In-Reply-To: David Parter "Re: keeping track of inventory" (Oct 20, 4:38pm) References: <199710202138.QAA02217@zamboni.cs.wisc.edu> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95) To: David Parter , Matt Harrington Subject: Re: keeping track of inventory Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Oct 20, 4:38pm, David Parter wrote: > Subject: Re: keeping track of inventory > I've been thinking that someday we should do a LISA paper on our > database... > > like many sites, ours is homegrown. While the database is interesting, I'd be much more interested in how you manage to keep information that is not available electronically up-to-date. Our biggest problem is that fully half of our machine have incorrect information for fields that are manual entry. Xev Gittler xev@lehman.com From sage-members-owner Tue Oct 21 06:49:01 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA23548 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from firewall2.Lehman.COM (firewall.Lehman.COM [192.147.65.67]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA23539 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.messaging-svcs2.lehman.com by firewall2.Lehman.COM (8.8.6/8.6.12) id JAA03271; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:45:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dsoprod1.dsoprod.lehman.com by relay.messaging-svcs2.lehman.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA28860; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:44:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mrbun.lehman.com by dsoprod1.dsoprod.lehman.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA13721; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:44:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mrbun.lehman.com (SMI-8.6/Lehman Bros. V1.5) id JAA07160; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:44:58 -0400 From: "Xev Gittler" Message-Id: <9710210944.ZM7158@mrbun.dsoprod.lehman.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:44:57 -0400 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95) To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: November 11 NYSA Meeting - Randal Schwartz Cc: "Xev Gittler" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The New York System Administrators (NYSA) guild, a local chapter of SAGE, meets the second Tuesday every month to discuss topics of interest to New York City area system administrators. The meetings are free and open to the public. The next meeting will be on Tuesday, November 11, from 6:30m - ~9:30. (Note that we are starting a bit later, because the room is in use before that). It will be held at Morgan Stanley, 750 7th Avenue, 4th Floor. Directions are available at the end of the message. The presentation will be "Just Another Convicted Perl Hacker" by Randal L. Schwartz. (The previously announced topic will be bumped until another month). Randal is a, very real, convicted felon and co-System Administrator (and to a lot of SAGE members "one of the good guys"). You may know him better as the author of two Nutshell books for O'Reilly and Associates: "Learning Perl" (aka the Llama Book) Available in English, Japanese, French, and German; and "Programming Perl" (aka the Camel Book). Randal also writes a bi-monthly column for Unix Review, as well as a monthly column for Web Techniques magazine (from the people that brought us Dr. Dobbs Journal). However, in July 1995, Randal Schwartz was convicted by a jury of three felony counts under Oregon's Computer Crime Law. The charges related to his activities while working as a consultant (Systems Administrator) at an Intel Corporation facility in Beaverton, Oregon. His sentence issued in September includes 5 years of probation, 480 hours of community Service, 90 days of deferred (cancelable) jail time, and $68k of restitution to Intel. His legal bill exceeded $170k by the end of 1995. Randal Schwartz is respected on the Internet for his contributions to the progress of the Perl programming language through his two books, long-time participation in the comp.lang.perl(.misc) newsgroup, moderation of the newer comp.lang.perl.announce newsgroup, and his training courses. The purpose of his talk is to describe both the events, his mistakes and the problems with modern computer crime laws. This talk is designed to help prevent what happened to him from happening to any other well-intentioned computing professional. Preventing similar incidents requires insight into this unforeseen application of a law that is intended to protect organizations against thieves, spies, and casual intruders to the enforcement of a corporation's internal rules of operation. I am expecting a larger turnout than normal. Therefore, if you are planning to attend and do not regularly attend NYSA meetings, please drop me a note at xev@lehman.com so that I can gauge the room I'll need. For more information about NYSA, and to check for the location if its getting close and you haven't heard yet, check out http://www.nysa.org. To subscribe to our mailing list. by sending a subscribe message (the word subscribe in the body of the message) to majordomo@nysa.org. Directions to Morgan Stanley: By Subway - 1 and 9 to 50th Street - B, D and E to 7th Avenue (and 53rd) - N and R to 49th Street. The 1, 9, N and R stations are in the building, although you must walk out to the streetand around the block to reach the lobby entrance on 7th Avenue. From sage-members-owner Tue Oct 21 09:30:58 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27880 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gauntlet.laitram.com (firewall-user@titan.laitram.com [204.251.4.251]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27871 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gauntlet.laitram.com; id KAA25063; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:45:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from earth.laitram.com(204.251.5.74) by gauntlet.laitram.com via smap (3.2) id xma025057; Tue, 21 Oct 97 10:45:53 -0500 Received: from pisces.laitram.com (pisces.laitram.com [172.16.2.132]) by earth.laitram.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA16718 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:03:36 -0500 Received: by pisces.laitram.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 86256537.00599D09 ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:18:49 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: LAITRAM From: Jamie.Hadley@laitram.com To: sage-members@usenix.org Message-ID: <86256537.005A830E.00@pisces.laitram.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:30:52 -0500 Subject: Local Chapter of SAGE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I am a System Administrator in the New Orleans area and have been receiving e-mail from the sage-members group for a while. I have not noticed any mention of a Chapter of SAGE close to the New Orleans area. Could someone please fill me in on the specifics if there is one in this area? Thanks Jamie Hadley Intralox, Inc. jamie.hadley@laitram.com From sage-members-owner Tue Oct 21 11:43:03 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA04195 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from macsch.com (draco.macsch.com [192.73.8.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA04183 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [161.34.1.42] by macsch.com (5.61/MSC-960531) id AA16700; Tue, 21 Oct 97 11:37:59 -0700 Received: from canismajor.is.macsch.com by bootes.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSCbootes.950222) id AA21334; Tue, 21 Oct 97 11:39:09 PDT Received: by canismajor.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSC.TW.SunOS.1.02) id AA08622; Tue, 21 Oct 97 11:38:18 PDT From: "Todd Williams" Message-Id: <9710211138.ZM8620@canismajor.is.macsch.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:38:17 -0700 In-Reply-To: Jamie.Hadley@laitram.com "Local Chapter of SAGE" (Oct 21, 11:30) References: <86256537.005A830E.00@pisces.laitram.com> X-Face: "FF3Li6k/|j$-t~Ut~7Tcrqj{YOlB#Kqid0f^}/Hq>yDnjmBRW5bJ\@EwsJ(jeU]B@?t6u'w:Z"C{8$}6kT+!sX[m.HgO{xR7q3>G-_*XwN_twn-d4&S!^or?@79qDeoMX_CS)_/lGAq9_P{9SFa5"!uAO(!,!$:{bQ^4|OAb-q{Pb'tkE^oRm_Wuecl0m4!_USKsHC/#$b_L-*$^T-Vy+_2io@[b?|Ls!_KSFXy!3bbJNxuJqm8$tQ&)090BBF-tx; ^{)[*W,Q\>vEva?wi0FpG/]oa^*& X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95) To: Jamie.Hadley@laitram.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Local Chapter of SAGE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Oct 21, 11:30, Jamie.Hadley@laitram.com wrote: > I have not noticed any mention of a Chapter of SAGE close to the New Orleans > area. Could someone please fill me in on the specifics if there is one > in this area? See http://www.usenix.org/membership/LUGS.html -Todd From sage-members-owner Tue Oct 21 12:32:00 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06629 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pnl.gov (relay.pnl.gov [130.20.84.34]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA06619 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from odyssey.emsl.pnl.gov by pnl.gov (PMDF V5.1-10 #21283) with ESMTP id <01IP2HAO8CHCAXB8NU@pnl.gov> for sage-members@usenix.ORG; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:28:13 PDT Received: from darwin.emsl.pnl.gov (darwin.emsl.pnl.gov [198.128.82.249]) by odyssey.emsl.pnl.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA24984; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from d3h928@localhost) by darwin.emsl.pnl.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA01324; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:28:10 -0700 From: Karl.Anderson@pnl.gov (Karl A. Anderson) Subject: Re: keeping track of inventory In-reply-to: Xev Gittler <"Re: keeping track of inventory"@pnl.gov> (Oct 21, 9:32am) To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: Troy K Thompson , Gregory S Thomas Message-id: <9710211228.ZM1322@darwin.emsl.pnl.gov> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 06sep94) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <199710202138.QAA02217@zamboni.cs.wisc.edu> <9710210932.ZM7128@mrbun.dsoprod.lehman.com> Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Oct 21, 9:32am, Xev Gittler wrote: > > While the database is interesting, I'd be much more interested > in how you manage to keep information that is not available > electronically up-to-date. Our biggest problem is that fully > half of our machine have incorrect information for fields that > are manual entry. > > Xev Gittler One of my colleagues presented a paper at (I think) SANS '96 on our inventory system. He might be willing to give you the paper -- Greg? The as-yet unsolved problem for us is political: we have user data in one department's DB, property data in another, purchasing data in a 3rd ... you get the picture. So far, no-one's been willing to sponsor a project to interface all the DBs. -- Karl A. Anderson EMSL System Administrator Battelle PNNL Voice: 509-376-5382 Box 999, MSIN K8-91 FAX: 509-376-0420 Richland, WA 99352 Email: Karl.Anderson@pnl.gov From sage-members-owner Tue Oct 21 13:47:28 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA10354 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:47:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from macsch.com (draco.macsch.com [192.73.8.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA10345 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [161.34.1.42] by macsch.com (5.61/MSC-960531) id AA18968; Tue, 21 Oct 97 13:43:27 -0700 Received: from canismajor.is.macsch.com by bootes.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSCbootes.950222) id AA24949; Tue, 21 Oct 97 13:44:37 PDT Received: by canismajor.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSC.TW.SunOS.1.02) id AA14496; Tue, 21 Oct 97 13:43:47 PDT From: "Todd Williams" Message-Id: <9710211343.ZM14494@canismajor.is.macsch.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:43:46 -0700 In-Reply-To: "Todd Williams" "Re: Local Chapter of SAGE" (Oct 21, 11:38) References: <86256537.005A830E.00@pisces.laitram.com> <9710211138.ZM8620@canismajor.is.macsch.com> X-Face: "FF3Li6k/|j$-t~Ut~7Tcrqj{YOlB#Kqid0f^}/Hq>yDnjmBRW5bJ\@EwsJ(jeU]B@?t6u'w:Z"C{8$}6kT+!sX[m.HgO{xR7q3>G-_*XwN_twn-d4&S!^or?@79qDeoMX_CS)_/lGAq9_P{9SFa5"!uAO(!,!$:{bQ^4|OAb-q{Pb'tkE^oRm_Wuecl0m4!_USKsHC/#$b_L-*$^T-Vy+_2io@[b?|Ls!_KSFXy!3bbJNxuJqm8$tQ&)090BBF-tx; ^{)[*W,Q\>vEva?wi0FpG/]oa^*& X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95) To: "Todd Williams" , Jamie.Hadley@laitram.com, sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Local Chapter of SAGE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Oct 21, 11:38, Todd Williams wrote: > On Oct 21, 11:30, Jamie.Hadley@laitram.com wrote: > > I have not noticed any mention of a Chapter of SAGE close to New Orleans... > > See http://www.usenix.org/membership/LUGS.html Oops. Actually, that the UNIX *user* groups. A few more clicks takes you to http://www.usenix.org/sage/locals/localgroups.html Which are the SAGE groups. -Todd From sage-members-owner Wed Oct 22 15:34:22 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA21220 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21211 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA00831; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19293; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:30:51 -0400 Message-Id: <199710222230.AA19293@world.std.com> Subject: Restricting logins To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:30:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone have a suggestion for a way to restrict which users can log on to a particular machine? Before you say "netgroups," let me explain the situation fully . . . We have around two dozen machines, one of which (currently running DEC OSF/1 v4.0 -- but that's likely to change to Solaris 2.6 or IRIX 6.3) is intended to be used as a compute server. All the data needed to run the computationally-intensive jobs (as well as /usr/local) is available via NFS, and we're using NIS for passwd, group, auto-mount maps, etc. We are also running a batch job system that will let users submit jobs to be run on the big machine without their actually having to log on to that machine. (This also lets us restrict which programs may be run on the big machine.) All users are allowed to submit batch jobs, but only a few users -- mostly the folks in our support group -- are allowed to log on to the big machine. The batch facility requires that the user's UID be visible on the big machine; unless there's some trick we don't know about, we don't see how to use netgroups to solve our problem. We need to restrict telnet, rlogin, rsh, and rcp on the big machine, so hacking /bin/login won't cut it -- not to mention that we'd really rather not write a special version of login (or telnetd, rshd, rlogind, or any other daemon). We'd also like to avoid hacking every shell we use, or writing a special shell that then execs the user's real shell. So, how do we do it? Our first thought is to build a local copy of /etc/passwd on the big machine: We'd use ypcat to get the master copy, then run it through a simple script that changes the encrypted password field to "*" and the shell to "/bin/false" for all but the "special" users. (So far as we can tell, our batch facility doesn't perform a login on behalf of the user, so the fact that they don't really have a shell shouldn't matter; nor does it do any sort of authentication, so it doesn't need a password, either.) We're not thrilled with this approach, but neither do we see anything wrong with it. Are we missing something? What's going to break if we do it this way? We'd also more than open to suggestions of other/better ways to accomplish the same thing. As always, please respond to me (adamm@menlo.com) and I'll post a summary. Thanks in advance, AdamM From sage-members-owner Wed Oct 22 20:10:58 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA05614 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA05605 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA09080; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:07:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02501; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:07:07 -0400 Message-Id: <199710230307.AA02501@world.std.com> Subject: Restricting logins -- SUMMARY To: sage-members@usenix.org Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:04:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Reply-To: adamm@menlo.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk OK, OK . . . I guess this is what I get for trying to avoid learning about NIS. :-) It turns out that the answer is a really simple hack using NIS: If, instead of the usual "NIS magic cookie" entry of +::0:0::: one uses +:*:0:0:::/bin/false we get exactly what I wanted, namely, the entire passwd map visible on the machine, but no one is able to log on. Given this, using a netgroup for the folks who are allowed to log on is fine. Now, I promise to go right out and buy Hal Stern's NFS/NIS book and read it cover to cover. :-) One other note: John Schimmel pointed out that IRIX has a built-in hook in login to run an external authentication program. To enable this, edit /etc/default/login and set SITECHECK to the name of the program. Thanks to the following people for their speedy answers: Shawn Rutledge , Lewis Muhlenkamp , Jay Plett , Dan Forsyth , Hal Stern (Distinguished Systems Engineer!) , John E. Schimmel , Keith Pilotti , Jon Finke , Remy Evard , and John Sellens . AdamM From sage-members-owner Wed Oct 22 23:39:07 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA13889 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA13880 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sherman (1Cust44.tnt13.lax3.da.uu.net [153.37.88.44]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA16227 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971022233347.009899c0@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: bhami@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:33:47 -0700 To: sage-members@usenix.org From: Bruce Hamilton Subject: Re: Restricting logins -- SUMMARY In-Reply-To: <199710230307.AA02501@world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Great, but... how do we do that in nisplus? (Y'all DO remember nisplus? :-) Thanks, --Bruce (Bruce Hamilton, Redondo Beach, CA) bhami@netcom.com (preferred) bhami@hesp.es.xerox.com --day 310-333-3538 --day From sage-members-owner Thu Oct 23 03:11:37 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA22882 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 03:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kiowa.wildstar.net (falcon@kiowa.wildstar.net [198.203.196.143]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA22873 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 03:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (falcon@localhost) by kiowa.wildstar.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA31331 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 04:10:59 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 04:10:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "R. Wyatt" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: restricting logins on hp-ux Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk All I work in an environment where the root password gets out quite frequently. I already don't allow rlogins as root. What I would like to do is establish a group of certain users that are allowed to su to root. I do this on FreeBSD by establishing a wheel group. Does anybody know how this works on hp-ux ? Randy Wyatt From sage-members-owner Thu Oct 23 08:53:10 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA05832 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kiowa.wildstar.net (falcon@kiowa.wildstar.net [198.203.196.143]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA05820 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (falcon@localhost) by kiowa.wildstar.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA32432 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:52:31 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:52:31 -0500 (CDT) From: "R. Wyatt" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: summary : restricting logins on hp-ux Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Thanks to those of you that have answered. There are two plausible schemes, that may be implemented. 1.) sudo. I am definetly going to look into this product, and implementing it. The only problem that I see, is I have 17 different servers with 17 different environments. It seems to be maintenance intensive. 2.) making a wheel group, chmod 750 su binary, changing the binary to wheel group, and then an hp-ux user can change group to wheel to use the binary. Thanks to Sandy Cash, Mark Mengel. Randy Wyatt From sage-members-owner Thu Oct 23 09:49:22 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA08974 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fw1.tek.com (fw1.tek.com [192.65.17.16]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA08965 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fw1.tek.com (root@localhost) by fw1.tek.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA08885 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orca.wv.tek.com (orca.wv.tek.com [134.62.8.23]) by fw1.tek.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA08878 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pogo.wv.tek.com by orca.wv.tek.com (4.1/8.2) id AA23396; Thu, 23 Oct 97 09:46:11 PDT Received: from catenary.WV.TEK.COM by pogo.wv.tek.com (4.1/8.0) id AA10829; Thu, 23 Oct 97 09:45:49 PDT Received: from catenary.wv.tek.com by catenary.WV.TEK.COM (SMI-8.6/8.2) id JAA09834; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:45:49 -0700 Message-Id: <199710231645.JAA09834@catenary.WV.TEK.COM> To: adamm@menlo.com Cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Restricting logins In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:30:50 EDT." <199710222230.AA19293@world.std.com> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:45:49 -0700 From: Sean Kamath Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk [In a message on Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:30:50 EDT, ""Adam S. Moskowitz"" wrote:] >All users are allowed to submit batch jobs, but only a few users -- >mostly the folks in our support group -- are allowed to log on to the >big machine. > >The batch facility requires that the user's UID be visible on the big >machine; unless there's some trick we don't know about, we don't see how >to use netgroups to solve our problem. We need to restrict telnet, >rlogin, rsh, and rcp on the big machine, so hacking /bin/login won't cut >it -- not to mention that we'd really rather not write a special version >of login (or telnetd, rshd, rlogind, or any other daemon). We'd also >like to avoid hacking every shell we use, or writing a special shell >that then execs the user's real shell. > >So, how do we do it? > >Our first thought is to build a local copy of /etc/passwd on the big >machine: We'd use ypcat to get the master copy, then run it through a >simple script that changes the encrypted password field to "*" and the >shell to "/bin/false" for all but the "special" users. (So far as we can >tell, our batch facility doesn't perform a login on behalf of the user, >so the fact that they don't really have a shell shouldn't matter; nor >does it do any sort of authentication, so it doesn't need a password, >either.) how about what we use (using netgroups): ... +@sysadm::-2:-2::: -@host_deny::-2:-2::: -@all_deny::-2:-2::: +@host_users::-2:-2::: +@app-supt_u::-2:-2::: +@universal::-2:-2:::/local/etc/dsh /local/etc/dsh is a simple script that let's poeple know they don't have access to the machine. Works for us on our fileservers, etc. Sean From sage-members-owner Thu Oct 23 12:10:51 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA16960 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pnl.gov (relay.pnl.gov [130.20.84.34]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA16938 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from odyssey.emsl.pnl.gov by pnl.gov (PMDF V5.1-10 #21283) with ESMTP id <01IP595DW9WGAWIJ9H@pnl.gov> for sage-members@usenix.ORG; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:07:14 PDT Received: from shadowfax.pnl.gov (shadowfax.pnl.gov [130.20.92.36]) by odyssey.emsl.pnl.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA25253; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from d3g001@localhost) by shadowfax.pnl.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA22251; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:07:12 -0700 From: d3g001@emsl.pnl.gov (Gregory S Thomas) Subject: Re: keeping track of inventory In-reply-to: Karl.Anderson@pnl.gov (Karl A. Anderson) "Re: keeping track of inventory" (Oct 21, 12:28) To: sage-members@usenix.org Cc: Gregory S Thomas , Troy K Thompson Reply-to: Greg.Thomas@pnl.gov Message-id: <9710231207.ZM22249@shadowfax.pnl.gov> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 06sep94) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <199710202138.QAA02217@zamboni.cs.wisc.edu> <9710210932.ZM7128@mrbun.dsoprod.lehman.com> <9710211228.ZM1322@darwin.emsl.pnl.gov> Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Oct 21, 12:28, Karl A. Anderson wrote: > Subject: Re: keeping track of inventory > On Oct 21, 9:32am, Xev Gittler wrote: > > > > While the database is interesting, I'd be much more interested > > in how you manage to keep information that is not available > > electronically up-to-date. Our biggest problem is that fully > > half of our machine have incorrect information for fields that > > are manual entry. > > > > Xev Gittler > > One of my colleagues presented a paper at (I think) SANS '96 on our inventory > system. He might be willing to give you the paper -- Greg? > > The as-yet unsolved problem for us is political: we have user data in one > department's DB, property data in another, purchasing data in a 3rd ... you get > the picture. So far, no-one's been willing to sponsor a project to interface > all the DBs. >-- End of excerpt from Karl A. Anderson The paper Karl refers to was presented at LISA '96: @inproceedings{pnl/emsl/dcs/uha/lisa96, author = "Gregory S. Thomas and James O. Schroeder and Merrilee E. Orcutt and Desiree C. Johnson and Jeffrey T. Simmelink and John P. Moore", title = "{UNIX Host Administration in a Heterogeneous Distributed Computing Environment}", booktitle = "Proceedings of the Tenth Systems Administration Conference", month = sep, year = 1996, pages = "43--50", otherinfo = "September 29 -- October 4, 1996. Chicago Marriott Hotel, Chicago, IL. ISBN: 1-880446-81-2." } Note that this system does not solve the problem Xev mentions, namely, keeping manually-entered information up to date. It reduces the amount of information we need to enter manually, but does not eliminate it entirely. greg -- Gregory S. Thomas Pacific Northwest National Laboratory voice: 509-375-6933 Mail Stop K7-22 fax: 509-375-3641 P.O. Box 999 email: greg.thomas@pnl.gov Richland, WA 99352 From sage-members-owner Fri Oct 24 10:32:36 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA24332 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:32:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host1.redrose.net (host1.redrose.net [204.249.184.2]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA24322 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21295 invoked by uid 507); 24 Oct 1997 13:46:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 9458 invoked from network); 24 Oct 1997 09:07:14 -0000 Received: from usenix-gw.usenix.org (HELO usenix.ORG) (131.106.1.254) by mail.redrose.net with SMTP; 24 Oct 1997 09:07:14 -0000 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA25883 for sage-members-digest-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710240900.CAA25883@usenix.ORG> From: owner-sage-members-digest@usenix.org To: sage-members-digest@usenix.org Subject: sage-members-digest V1 #40 Reply-To: sage-members@usenix.org Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk sage-members-digest Friday, 24 October 1997 Volume 01 : Number 040 In this issue: restricting logins on hp-ux summary : restricting logins on hp-ux Re: Restricting logins Re: keeping track of inventory See the end of the digest for information on unsubscribing to the sage-members-digest mailing list. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R. Wyatt" Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 04:10:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: restricting logins on hp-ux All I work in an environment where the root password gets out quite frequently. I already don't allow rlogins as root. What I would like to do is establish a group of certain users that are allowed to su to root. I do this on FreeBSD by establishing a wheel group. Does anybody know how this works on hp-ux ? Randy Wyatt ------------------------------ From: "R. Wyatt" Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:52:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: summary : restricting logins on hp-ux Thanks to those of you that have answered. There are two plausible schemes, that may be implemented. 1.) sudo. I am definetly going to look into this product, and implementing it. The only problem that I see, is I have 17 different servers with 17 different environments. It seems to be maintenance intensive. 2.) making a wheel group, chmod 750 su binary, changing the binary to wheel group, and then an hp-ux user can change group to wheel to use the binary. Thanks to Sandy Cash, Mark Mengel. Randy Wyatt ------------------------------ From: Sean Kamath Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:45:49 -0700 Subject: Re: Restricting logins [In a message on Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:30:50 EDT, ""Adam S. Moskowitz"" wrote:] >All users are allowed to submit batch jobs, but only a few users -- >mostly the folks in our support group -- are allowed to log on to the >big machine. > >The batch facility requires that the user's UID be visible on the big >machine; unless there's some trick we don't know about, we don't see how >to use netgroups to solve our problem. We need to restrict telnet, >rlogin, rsh, and rcp on the big machine, so hacking /bin/login won't cut >it -- not to mention that we'd really rather not write a special version >of login (or telnetd, rshd, rlogind, or any other daemon). We'd also >like to avoid hacking every shell we use, or writing a special shell >that then execs the user's real shell. > >So, how do we do it? > >Our first thought is to build a local copy of /etc/passwd on the big >machine: We'd use ypcat to get the master copy, then run it through a >simple script that changes the encrypted password field to "*" and the >shell to "/bin/false" for all but the "special" users. (So far as we can >tell, our batch facility doesn't perform a login on behalf of the user, >so the fact that they don't really have a shell shouldn't matter; nor >does it do any sort of authentication, so it doesn't need a password, >either.) how about what we use (using netgroups): ... +@sysadm::-2:-2::: - -@host_deny::-2:-2::: - -@all_deny::-2:-2::: +@host_users::-2:-2::: +@app-supt_u::-2:-2::: +@universal::-2:-2:::/local/etc/dsh /local/etc/dsh is a simple script that let's poeple know they don't have access to the machine. Works for us on our fileservers, etc. Sean ------------------------------ From: d3g001@emsl.pnl.gov (Gregory S Thomas) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:07:12 -0700 Subject: Re: keeping track of inventory On Oct 21, 12:28, Karl A. Anderson wrote: > Subject: Re: keeping track of inventory > On Oct 21, 9:32am, Xev Gittler wrote: > > > > While the database is interesting, I'd be much more interested > > in how you manage to keep information that is not available > > electronically up-to-date. Our biggest problem is that fully > > half of our machine have incorrect information for fields that > > are manual entry. > > > > Xev Gittler > > One of my colleagues presented a paper at (I think) SANS '96 on our inventory > system. He might be willing to give you the paper -- Greg? > > The as-yet unsolved problem for us is political: we have user data in one > department's DB, property data in another, purchasing data in a 3rd ... you get > the picture. So far, no-one's been willing to sponsor a project to interface > all the DBs. >-- End of excerpt from Karl A. Anderson The paper Karl refers to was presented at LISA '96: @inproceedings{pnl/emsl/dcs/uha/lisa96, author = "Gregory S. Thomas and James O. Schroeder and Merrilee E. Orcutt and Desiree C. Johnson and Jeffrey T. Simmelink and John P. Moore", title = "{UNIX Host Administration in a Heterogeneous Distributed Computing Environment}", booktitle = "Proceedings of the Tenth Systems Administration Conference", month = sep, year = 1996, pages = "43--50", otherinfo = "September 29 -- October 4, 1996. Chicago Marriott Hotel, Chicago, IL. ISBN: 1-880446-81-2." } Note that this system does not solve the problem Xev mentions, namely, keeping manually-entered information up to date. It reduces the amount of information we need to enter manually, but does not eliminate it entirely. greg - -- Gregory S. Thomas Pacific Northwest National Laboratory voice: 509-375-6933 Mail Stop K7-22 fax: 509-375-3641 P.O. Box 999 email: greg.thomas@pnl.gov Richland, WA 99352 ------------------------------ End of sage-members-digest V1 #40 ********************************* To unsubscribe from sage-members-digest, send the command: unsubscribe sage-members-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@usenix.org". If you want to unsubscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "unsubscribe" command; for example, to unsubscribe "local-sage-members-digest": unsubscribe sage-members-digest local-sage-members-digest@your.domain.net From sage-members-owner Sun Oct 26 12:33:18 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA24659 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:33:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from comanche.wildstar.net (falcon@comanche.wildstar.net [198.203.196.144]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA24650 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (falcon@localhost) by comanche.wildstar.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA20506 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:29:35 -0600 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:29:35 -0600 (CST) From: "R. Wyatt" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: precompiled gcc for solaris 2.6 x86 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Unfortunately, I need to find a precompiled gcc for this? Any ideas where I might find one. I didn't see one in opcom.sun.ca or sunsite.unc.edu. Any help would be appreciated ? Randy From sage-members-owner Sun Oct 26 15:42:31 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA03465 for sage-members-outgoing; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:42:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.net1plus.com (NET1PLUS.COM [207.77.56.12]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA03456 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:42:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from yoda ([207.77.56.70]) by mail.net1plus.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-39375U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAA165; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:39:16 -0500 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:36:48 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Lussier X-Sender: plussier@yoda Reply-To: Sage Members To: "R. Wyatt" cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: precompiled gcc for solaris 2.6 x86 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, R. Wyatt wrote: > Unfortunately, I need to find a precompiled gcc for this? Any ideas > where I might find one. I didn't see one in opcom.sun.ca or > sunsite.unc.edu. Any help would be appreciated ? > Randy I know Ready To Run software puts out CDs with most of the GNU/Freely Redistributable stuff on them I'm sure they have a gcc for Solaris 2.6, but I don't know what it would cost. http://www.rtr.com/newrtr/index.htm Hope that helps some. Seeya, Paul --- plussier@net1plus.com From sage-members-owner Sat Nov 1 17:59:36 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA17631 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:59:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from amber.ccs.neu.edu (root@amber.ccs.neu.edu [129.10.111.100]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA17572 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:59:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from stockberg.ccs.neu.edu (danielr@stockberg.ccs.neu.edu [129.10.112.123]) by amber.ccs.neu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA26629; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 20:56:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 20:56:01 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Rinehart To: "R. Wyatt" cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: summary : restricting logins on hp-ux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Thanks to those of you that have answered. There are two plausible > schemes, that may be implemented. Another option would be su2 (in 25 words or less): Become another user (usually root) without losing your environmet. ftp://ftp.ccs.neu.edu/pub/sysadmin/su2-1.3.tar.gz - Daniel R. From sage-members-owner Mon Nov 3 04:06:26 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA26723 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 04:06:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from achilles.noc.ntua.gr (root@achilles.noc.ntua.gr [147.102.222.210]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA26706 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 04:06:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by achilles.noc.ntua.gr via NTUAnet with ESMTP id OAA03161 ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:02:07 +0200 (EET) Received: by softlab.ece.ntua.gr with ESMTP id OAA00166 at Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:01:59 +0200 (EET) Received: by softlab.ece.ntua.gr [client - phgasos] id OAA24523 at Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:01:59 +0200 (EET) From: Yiorgos Adamopoulos Message-Id: <199711031201.OAA24523@softlab.ece.ntua.gr> Subject: Re: summary : restricting logins on hp-ux To: danielr@ccs.neu.edu (Daniel Rinehart) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:01:58 +0200 (EET) Cc: falcon@kiowa.wildstar.net, sage-members@usenix.org In-Reply-To: from "Daniel Rinehart" at Nov 1, 97 08:56:01 pm X-Organization: National Technical University of Athens, GREECE X-Organization: Division of Computer Sciense X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, unless otherwise *explicitly* stated. Reply-To: adamo@cs.ntua.gr X-Alt-Email: adamo@InterWorks.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > Another option would be su2 (in 25 words or less): > Become another user (usually root) without losing your environmet. > > ftp://ftp.ccs.neu.edu/pub/sysadmin/su2-1.3.tar.gz > or even ftp://ftp.dbnet.ece.ntua.gr/pub/users/george/zu.c very minimal implementation... -Yiorgos. #include mailto: adamo@cs.ntua.gr From sage-members-owner Mon Nov 3 10:47:07 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA19619 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:47:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from psasolar.psa.pencom.com (psasolar.psa.pencom.com [204.217.199.14]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19610 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from psa.pencom.com (psa.pencom.com [204.217.199.13]) by psasolar.psa.pencom.com (Guess/What/1.0) with SMTP id MAA01577 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:43:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:44:33 -0600 (CST) From: "Carolyn M. Hennings" To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Chicagoland SAGE Local Meeting Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Join us at our next meeting... Unix System Security (see abstract below) Glenn Staford, Alliance Systems / MDSI Thursday November 6, 1997 7:00 pm College of DuPage Room SRC-1024A Before the main presentation, Carolyn Hennings and Lewis Muhlenkamp will give a short overview of the LISA conference. Unix System Security Abstract: This presentation covers the practical principles of Computer and UNIX Security. This includes dispelling any rumors that UNIX is an unsecure operating system. There will a discussion on: -Basic principles of computer security -File permissions -Principles of Securing Systems -Recovering configuration files -System Security Audits (Packages Available & Homebrew) Upon the completion of this presentation, the ground work for improving computing security will be known. See the chigrp web site for a brief bio of Glenn Staford. Organizational Meeting ---------------------- A short meeting will be held at 6:00 in the cafateria at the SRC. Anyone interested in assisting with the organization and operation of the group is welcome to attend. The topics for discussion will include: - Future Meeting Location - Programs - Finances - Use of the mail list - What does 'membership' mean? - Discussion on the groups 'structure' Join us at Cozymel's!!! ----------------------- Feel free to join us at Cozymel's after the meeting for food, drinks, or even just plain conversation and camaraderie. Cozymel's is a Mexican restaurant in the Danada Shopping Center at the intersection of Butterfield and Naperville Roads. chigrp: Who We Are The System Administrator's Guild, SAGE, is a special technical group of the Usenix Association. SAGE is made up of Unix and NT professionals focusing on the management of these systems and networks. chigrp is a local organization serving the Chicagoland area. Our purpose is to bring together professionals managing Unix and NT systems in order to share knowledge and build fellowship. Our goals are to: - conduct monthly meetings with speakers presenting information on valuable systems management topics - provide an friendly, sociable environment that encourages the exchange of information Who Should Join? Anyone who administers Unix or NT systems. Visit us on the Web! - http://sage.king.net/ Directions to COD (College of DuPage): Maps to COD and of the COD campus may be found on the Web at http://www.cod.edu/Maps_Loc.htm Westbound Eastbound Northbound or Southbound I-88: Exit Route 53 I-88: Exit Naperville From I-355: Exit north, to Park Road, north to Butterfield Road (Route Boulevard (first Butterfield Road 56), west to Park stoplight). Left on (Route 56), east to Boulevard. Right on Park to 22nd Street. Park Boulevard. Left Park to 22nd Street. on Park to 22nd North to college. Street. North to college. From sage-members-owner Tue Nov 4 10:03:29 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA05171 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:03:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from utdallas.edu (root@utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA26990 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 05:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from velcro.utdallas.edu (12721@velcro.utdallas.edu [129.110.3.4]) by utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA04216; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:32:58 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:32:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Amos A Gouaux To: Bruce Hamilton cc: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: Restricting logins -- SUMMARY In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971022233347.009899c0@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk For nisplus, you can put this in /etc/nsswitch.conf: passwd: compat passwd_compat: nisplus Then you can use the +/- entries (including netgroups). However, there is a bug in Solaris 2.6 FCS that causes *considerable* delays when the compat feature is used in nsswitch.conf. This problem has become so significant that we're actually thinking of implementing our own system making use of the PAM features in Solaris 2.6. With regard to PAM, one idea I had was to write some PAM routines that would consult either a NIS+ table or a LDAP database to determine if the person was authorized to login to that host. I haven't had a chance to try this out yet, though. amos On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Bruce Hamilton wrote: > Great, but... how do we do that in nisplus? (Y'all DO remember nisplus? :-) > > Thanks, > > --Bruce (Bruce Hamilton, Redondo Beach, CA) > bhami@netcom.com (preferred) > bhami@hesp.es.xerox.com --day > 310-333-3538 --day > > From sage-members-owner Thu Nov 6 08:02:17 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA25202 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:02:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.nando.net (storm.nando.net [152.52.2.139]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA25193 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:02:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26423 for ncsa-announce-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:10:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.nando.net: majordomo set sender to owner-ncsa-announce@nando.net using -f Received: from lamb.sas.com (root@lamb.sas.com [192.35.83.8]) by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26417 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:09:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mozart (markham.southpeak.com [192.35.83.31]) by lamb.sas.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04649 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:15:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ntmail01.pc.sas.com by mozart (5.65c/SAS/Domains/5-6-90) id AA03807; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:15:24 -0500 Received: by ntmail01.pc.sas.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BCEA94.D9FC47E0@ntmail01.pc.sas.com>; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:17:49 -0500 Message-Id: From: Heather Flanagan To: "'ncsa-announce@nando.net'" Subject: North Carolina System Administrators (NC*SA) meeting - November 10, 1997 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:17:46 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk > >The next meeting of the North Carolina System Administrators organization >(NC*SA) will be Monday, November 10 , 1997, at 6pm. Details about the >meeting, our technical program and directions to our meeting location are >provided in this note. We hope to see you there!! > > > North Carolina > System Administration Interest Group > > Enterprise Backup Solutions > Monday, November 10 , 1997 > Research Triangle Institute > Research Triangle Park, NC > > 6 PM - General Session > > >Presenter: >Derek Gamradt, Dallas Digital >Derek Gamradt has been designing storage solutions for networked computing >since 1989. After successful careers at UNISYS, Corporate Software and >Network Computing Devices, Derek joined Dallas Digital as a territory >manager in Tampa, Florida. Derek then moved to sales management and later >into product management for Dallas Digital's Document Imaging and Enterprise >Storage Management products. > >Derek is well versed in many data management technologies such as backup and >recovery, data archiving, HSM, and high availability clustering. > >Currently, Derek is the lead technologist in Dallas Digital's consulting >organization. > >============================== > >Don't forget, this month is also election month! Four of the Steering >Committee member >positions are up for election, and anyone who attends this meeting will be >eligible to vote. >More information will be sent out later this week, so stay tuned! > > >Our meetings are free and open to anyone with an interest in the topic of >the evening. We will be providing food and drink for the evening. If you >have any questions please contact: > > Amy K. Kreiling > SAS Institute Inc. > SAS Campus Drive > Cary, NC 27513 > (919) 677-8000 x5963 > kreiling@unx.sas.com > >============================== > >For information about the NC System Administrators group, contact our >Majordomo mailing list server. The "ncsa-discussion" mailing list has >been created to facilitate discussions of interest to system >administrators >from the state of North Carolina. > >Simply send email to "majordomo@nando.net": > > mail majordomo@nando.net > Subject: > > subscribe ncsa-discussion > >After subscribing, Majordomo will send you the help file and info file for >our mailing list. These files contain instructions for retrieving other >files available to the NCSA organization (e.g. the presentation material >from past technical programs are available for retrieval via Majordomo!!) > >============================== > >Directions to Research Triangle Institute >(http://www.rti.org/images/campus.gif) > > From I-40 west of RTP (e.g. Chapel Hill): > > Get onto I-40 heading east. Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham > Freeway - North (towards Durham). Stay in right lane. Shift > right as soon as possible after merging with traffic coming off > I-40 westbound. Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis > Road). At top of exit, turn to the left. (If you turn right and > cross over the bridge, you are going the wrong direction.) After > turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right > lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. > Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus > Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use > the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main > entrance. > > From I-40 east of RTP (e.g. Raleigh): > > Get onto I-40 heading west. Follow I-40 to the NC-147 - Durham > Freeway - North (towards Durham). Shift to rightmost lane > as soon as possible Exit to the right at the next exit (Cornwallis > Road). At top of exit, turn to the left. (If you turn right and > cross over the bridge, you are going the wrong direction.) After > turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately to the right > lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. > Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus > Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use > the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main > entrance. > > From north of RTP (e.g. Durham): > > Get onto NC-147 - Durham Freeway - south. Exit at the Cornwallis > Road exit. At the top of the exit, turn left to cross over the > bridge. After turning left onto Cornwallis, shift immediately > to the right lane. Take the second right onto East Institute Drive. > Take the second right off of East Institute Drive. Dreyfus > Laboratory will be the first building on your right. Use > the parking lot in front of the Lab and enter at the main > entrance. > >*********************************************************************** >Heather Flanagan Associate Systems Programmer >SAS Institute heflan@unx.sas.com >(919)677-8000 x5522 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From sage-members-owner Fri Nov 7 16:18:02 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA11739 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:18:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from yosemite.main.gnac.com (firewall-user@yosemite.main.gnac.com [198.151.248.221]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA11730 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:17:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by yosemite.main.gnac.com; id QAA25790; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:11:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from tweety.main.gnac.com(192.168.1.20) by yosemite.main.gnac.com via smap (3.2) id xma025785; Fri, 7 Nov 97 16:11:18 -0800 Received: from tweety.main.gnac.com (localhost.main.gnac.com [127.0.0.1]) by tweety.main.gnac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/GNAC-GW-2.1) with ESMTP id QAA26520; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:14:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711080014.QAA26520@tweety.main.gnac.com> To: baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@usenix.org, rem-conf@es.net Cc: bigmac@baylisa.org Subject: BayLISA: Upcoming meeting: Larry Wall, "Second Prize: a Horse Designed by Two Committees" Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 16:14:04 -0800 From: Bryan McDonald Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk SPECIAL NOTE: The BayLISA board election will be held immediately before this meeting, starting at 7pm. Please come a few minutes early to register and vote. Candidate statements are available at http://www.baylisa.org/board/elections/1997 ------- The BayLISA group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to systems and network administrators. The meetings are free and open to the public. Please feel free to redistribute this meeting announcement. BayLISA holds monthly meetings on the third Thursday of each month at 7:30 PM PST. We meet at Cisco Building J in San Jose, on Tasman Drive near First street. See www.baylisa.org for more information. The meetings are also broadcast via MBONE. Schedule ======== November 20, 1997: Second Prize: a Horse Designed by Two Committees, Larry Wall BayLISA Board elections Thursday, October 16, 1997, 7:30 PM: In this talk, Larry Wall will discuss the pitfalls and pratfalls of trying to get Java and Perl talking to each other (politely). Hence, he will talk about JPL (Java Perl Lingo), a hybrid language that lets you write Java methods with Perl implementations. (JPL is currently making its debut on O'Reilly's Perl Resource Kit, just released on November 7.) Please come if you like Java. Please come if you hate Java. Please come if you do both simultaneously. [Schedule subject to change] For further information on BayLISA, check out our web site: http://www.baylisa.org/ To get further information on the meeting location, you can also ftp it from ftp.baylisa.org:/BayLISA/location For any other information, please send email to: info@baylisa.org If you have any questions, please contact me or the info alias listed above. =============================================================================== Bryan McDonald bigmac@baylisa.org President president@baylisa.org BayLISA http://www.baylisa.org =============================================================================== From sage-members-owner Mon Nov 10 11:00:30 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA29107 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:00:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from firewall2.Lehman.COM (firewall.Lehman.COM [192.147.65.67]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29098 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:00:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.messaging-svcs2.lehman.com by firewall2.Lehman.COM (8.8.6/8.6.12) id NAA25744; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:57:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsoprod1.dsoprod.lehman.com by relay.messaging-svcs2.lehman.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA12506; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:56:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrbun.lehman.com by dsoprod1.dsoprod.lehman.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA28084; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:56:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by mrbun.lehman.com (SMI-8.6/Lehman Bros. V1.5) id NAA25649; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:56:29 -0500 From: "Xev Gittler" Message-Id: <9711101356.ZM25647@mrbun.dsoprod.lehman.com> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:56:28 -0500 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95) To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Call for Innovators - LISA '98 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk We are in the process of setting up a Conference Committee for LISA '98. The purpose of this short-lived committee is to to set the general direction and chart new innovations for the LISA conference. We are looking for people with brilliant ideas about new directions that LISA should take. If you have great ideas about about different activities that should occur at LISA or suggestions on changing things already seen at LISA, send us a note within the next week or so to lisa98chairs@usenix.org. Xev Gittler Rob Kolstad xev@usenix.org kolstad@usenix.org From sage-members-owner Mon Nov 10 11:15:41 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA29961 for sage-members-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from yosemite.main.gnac.com (firewall-user@yosemite.main.gnac.com [198.151.248.221]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29939 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:15:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by yosemite.main.gnac.com; id LAA14276; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:08:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from tweety.main.gnac.com(192.168.1.20) by yosemite.main.gnac.com via smap (3.2) id xma014274; Mon, 10 Nov 97 11:08:10 -0800 Received: from tweety.main.gnac.com (localhost.main.gnac.com [127.0.0.1]) by tweety.main.gnac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/GNAC-GW-2.1) with ESMTP id LAA27146; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:11:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711101911.LAA27146@tweety.main.gnac.com> To: baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@usenix.org, rem-conf@es.net Cc: bigmac@baylisa.org Subject: BayLISA: Upcoming meeting: Larry Wall, "Second Prize: a Horse Designed by Two Committees" Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:11:26 -0800 From: Bryan McDonald Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk [[[[[ My appologies, I left last months dates in one place in the message below. To avoid confusion, here is the message again, with the correct dates in all locations. - bigmac ]]]]] SPECIAL NOTE: The BayLISA board election will be held immediately before this meeting, starting at 7pm. Please come a few minutes early to register and vote. Candidate statements are available at http://www.baylisa.org/board/elections/1997 ------- The BayLISA group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to systems and network administrators. The meetings are free and open to the public. Please feel free to redistribute this meeting announcement. BayLISA holds monthly meetings on the third Thursday of each month at 7:30 PM PST. We meet at Cisco Building J in San Jose, on Tasman Drive near First street. See www.baylisa.org for more information. The meetings are also broadcast via MBONE. Schedule ======== November 20, 1997: Second Prize: a Horse Designed by Two Committees, Larry Wall BayLISA Board elections Thursday, November 20, 1997, 7:30 PM: In this talk, Larry Wall will discuss the pitfalls and pratfalls of trying to get Java and Perl talking to each other (politely). Hence, he will talk about JPL (Java Perl Lingo), a hybrid language that lets you write Java methods with Perl implementations. (JPL is currently making its debut on O'Reilly's Perl Resource Kit, just released on November 7.) Please come if you like Java. Please come if you hate Java. Please come if you do both simultaneously. [Schedule subject to change] For further information on BayLISA, check out our web site: http://www.baylisa.org/ To get further information on the meeting location, you can also ftp it from ftp.baylisa.org:/BayLISA/location For any other information, please send email to: info@baylisa.org If you have any questions, please contact me or the info alias listed above. =============================================================================== Bryan McDonald bigmac@baylisa.org President president@baylisa.org BayLISA http://www.baylisa.org =============================================================================== From sage-members-owner Wed Nov 12 09:32:01 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27122 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:32:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cohen@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27112 for sage-members; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:31:58 -0800 (PST) From: Eileen Cohen Message-Id: <199711121731.JAA27112@usenix.ORG> Subject: Request for Proposals: Editor for Short Topics Series To: sage-members Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:31:58 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL26 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Request for Proposals: Editor for SAGE Short Topics in Administration Series SAGE, the System Administrator's Guild, is seeking an Editor for its publication series, "Short Topics in System Administration". This booklet series is intended to present topics in a thorough, refereed fashion that are of immediate use to the growing community of system and network administrators. The responsibilities of the Editor are to 1. Coordinate new content for the series by -developing or refining the scope, audience, and goals of the booklets -assisting the SAGE Executive Committee in developing specific requests for author proposals -reviewing and selecting author proposals -evaluating drafts of author manuscripts -selecting volunteer content readers who have expertise in relevant content areas and moderating discussions btween authors and readers -ensuring that final content satisfies the goals of the booklet and the series 2. Coordinate revised editions of existing booklets by -making recommendations as to when new editions are appropriate -working with authors and staff to produce revisions 3. Act as liaison between authors, readers, and USENIX staff to ensure that schedules are reasonably met. This is a paid, part-time position. Applicants should be members of SAGE and considered "Level 4" system administrators with experience in coordinating large projects across the Net. Experience with the publications process (prior to production stage) is desirable. The editor will be hired by the USENIX Executive Director. Deadline for proposals is December 5, 1997. Please send proposals and any inquiries to Eileen Cohen Publications Director USENIX Association cohen@usenix.org Tel: 510-528-8649 From sage-members-owner Sat Nov 15 08:58:52 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA14239 for sage-members-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 08:58:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from epx.cis.umn.edu (root@epx.cis.umn.edu [128.101.83.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA14230 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 08:58:45 -0800 (PST) From: djb@epx.cis.umn.edu Received: by epx.cis.umn.edu; Sat, 15 Nov 97 10:55:20 -0600 Message-Id: <001346dd3f8019128@epx.cis.umn.edu> Date: Sat, 15 Nov 97 10:55:20 -0600 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: TCSA meeting November 20 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The Twin Cities System Administrators (TCSA) group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to system and network administrators in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota. The meetings are free and open to the public. TCSA meetings are on the third Thursday of each month at 7:00 pm. We will meet at Park Place West (Hwys 394 and 100) at building Conference Room #1 located on the basement level (level P - Parking Level). Next Meeting: November 20, 1997: LISA 97 Highlights Several of us that attended LISA 97 (Oct 26-31) in San Diego will provide summaries of the presentations and highlights from the Conference. NOTE: If you attended LISA 97 and would like to participate as a speaker, please send me some E-mail: djb@epx.cis.umn.edu Tentative Meeting Schedule December 18, 1997: TBD January 15, 1998: TBD Directions to Park Place West (6465 Wayzata Blvd): Take I394 to the Louisiana Ave. exit. Go east on Wayzata Blvd. (the frontage road on the south side of I394) to the entrance between Fuddruckers and Bennigan's. Proceed through the parking lot to the Park Place West building. Building Conference Room #1 is on the basement level (Level P - Parking level). For more information on TCSA, check out our web site: http://www.tcsa.org/ To subscribe to the TCSA mailing list (from a Unix system): echo "subscribe tcsa" | mailx majordomo@tcsa.org For any other information, please send email to: info@tcsa.org or contact: Dave Bianchi (612) 644-7843 -- Dave Bianchi Collective Technologies At: Honeywell CAS-SPO djb@epx.cis.umn.edu djb@colltech.com djb@cfsmo.honeywell.com Home: 612-644-7843 Pager: 612-818-7162 Honeywell: 612-957-4532 From sage-members-owner Fri Nov 21 10:44:36 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA24994 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:44:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from zamboni.cs.wisc.edu (zamboni.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.162.15]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA24984 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:44:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs.wisc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zamboni.cs.wisc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA04248; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:40:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711211840.MAA04248@zamboni.cs.wisc.edu> To: "Paul M. Moriarty" cc: Ken Mayer , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a procmail recipie for rejecting spam In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:36:11 PDT." <19970826083611.10870@igtc.igtc.com> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:37:52 -0600 From: David Parter Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This email message is in response to a complaint about SPAM relaying through mail1.doit.wisc.edu. If this message should not have been sent to you, or you recieve a duplicate, I am sorry. I am trying to deal with a flood of mail complaining about this situation. The computer mail1.doit.wisc.edu is not under the control of the Computer Sciences Department at the University of Wisconsin. We have been in contact with the administrators of mail1.doit.wisc.edu, and they are attempting to deal with it. While I agree with many of you that it should be easy and a very high priority for them to implement the check_* anti-relay features in sendmail, they are having difficulties in doing so. Those diffulties involve technology (the version of sendmail they are running has been customized) and policy. The problem is being addressed at the highest levels, and we expect that some kind of relay-blocked will be implemented soon. Thank you for your patience and understanding. --david david parter dparter@cs.wisc.edu associate director, computer systems lab voice: 608-262-0608/262-2389 university of wisconsin fax: 608-262-6626 computer sciences department From sage-members-owner Fri Nov 21 10:44:24 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA24977 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:44:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from zamboni.cs.wisc.edu (zamboni.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.162.15]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA24967 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:44:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs.wisc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zamboni.cs.wisc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA04219; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:40:16 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711211840.MAA04219@zamboni.cs.wisc.edu> To: Aaron Sherman cc: "Paul M. Moriarty" , Ken Mayer , sage-members@usenix.org Subject: Re: a procmail recipie for rejecting spam In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Aug 1997 13:01:24 EDT." Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:37:55 -0600 From: David Parter Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This email message is in response to a complaint about SPAM relaying through mail1.doit.wisc.edu. If this message should not have been sent to you, or you recieve a duplicate, I am sorry. I am trying to deal with a flood of mail complaining about this situation. The computer mail1.doit.wisc.edu is not under the control of the Computer Sciences Department at the University of Wisconsin. We have been in contact with the administrators of mail1.doit.wisc.edu, and they are attempting to deal with it. While I agree with many of you that it should be easy and a very high priority for them to implement the check_* anti-relay features in sendmail, they are having difficulties in doing so. Those diffulties involve technology (the version of sendmail they are running has been customized) and policy. The problem is being addressed at the highest levels, and we expect that some kind of relay-blocked will be implemented soon. Thank you for your patience and understanding. --david david parter dparter@cs.wisc.edu associate director, computer systems lab voice: 608-262-0608/262-2389 university of wisconsin fax: 608-262-6626 computer sciences department From sage-members-owner Fri Nov 21 13:12:13 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA04774 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:12:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from zamboni.cs.wisc.edu (zamboni.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.162.15]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA04763 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:12:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs.wisc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zamboni.cs.wisc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA05348 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:08:39 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711212108.PAA05348@zamboni.cs.wisc.edu> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: oooooops!!!! sorry Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:08:39 -0600 From: David Parter Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk yes, I know, its bad form to followup to a mistake like I just made... but but but... please ignore the mail I just sent about spam complaints. It is ironic that the mail it was erroneously responding to was about spam. I made a mistake and a script responded to the wrong set of mail messages... which is what happens on Friday afternoons. Sorry everyone.... hope your days are going better than mine ;-) --david david parter dparter@cs.wisc.edu associate director, computer systems lab voice: 608-262-0608/262-2389 university of wisconsin fax: 608-262-6626 computer sciences department From sage-members-owner Fri Nov 21 13:53:16 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA07262 for sage-members-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from phibes.dartmouth.edu (phibes.dartmouth.edu [129.170.18.45]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA07251 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:53:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from phibes.dartmouth.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phibes.dartmouth.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA11892 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:49:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199711212149.QAA11892@phibes.dartmouth.edu> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: SAGE things... Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:49:42 -0500 From: Pat Wilson Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk Hey, members! Better late than never (and I apologize for the delay), here are some highlights from LISA and recent SAGE Board activity... LISA Wow. The biggest LISA ever (over 2,000 attendees)! Many thanks to Celeste Stokley and Hal Pomeranz, this year's co-chairs, and the whole Program Committee - everything ran smoothly, sessions were well-attended, and folks looked like they were having fun. Thursday night's costume party was a special treat - many folks got well into the spirit! Several folks were taking pictures - if you have any you'd like to share, let us know. The LISA proceedings are available online at http://www.usenix.org/publications/library/proceedings/lisa97/ In other LISA news, the SAGE Achievement Award went this year to Paul Vixie, for his work BIND and his efforts in anti-spam initiatives. In addition, SAGE presented a special award to O'Reilly and Associates recognizing their efforts in publishing consistently useful sysadmin books. LISA '98 will be in Boston next December; the co-chairs are Xev Gittler and Rob Kolstad. Write them a paper! SAGE NEWS In the SAGE arena, many things have been going on: Paul Evans stepped down from the Board at our LISA meeting, having fulfilled his original 2-year term. As you may recall (see Hal Miller's piece in the August 1997 ;login:), in order to give the SAGE Board (now properly called the "Executive Committee" according to our official documents, but old habits die hard) more stability, we're _not_ holding elections this year, but will rather change next year to a schedule of electing all 7 Board members at once, every *other* year. To facilitate this, we extended the terms of Board members who would have expired this year until the next election. We were sorry to see Paul go. Kim Trudel (a former Board member) was appointed to fill out the remainder of Paul's term, and we welcome her (back). On a related note, we're once again looking for a Publications Editor to oversee the SAGE Short Topics in System Administration series. The RFP went out a couple of weeks ago to comp.org.usenix and this list; if you missed it and are interested, check it out on the web at http://www.usenix.org/sage/whatsnew/editor.rfp.html We will be awarding the contract before the end of the year - there's *lots* to get done. On the topic of publications, we will shortly have two booklets coming your way - one, written by Gretchen Phillips, about Hiring sysadmins, and one, by David Kuncicky and Bruce Wynn, on Educating and Training sysadmins. Several other booklets are in the pipeline, on various subjects (legal issues, how to be a postmaster, and auditing, off the top of my head) - as usual, SAGE members get a copy of each booklet when it's published. There's all sorts of neat stuff going on at the SAGE web site (http://www.usenix.org/sage). Keep tabs on what's new on the What's New page found off of the main page. We hope to soon add a speaker's bureau, and put up our offical organizational documents - you'll see that on the What's New page when it happens. We were happy to see that Usenix (with SAGE's recommendation) will be funding part of the next stage of the Maryland Virtual High School project, in which curricula will be developed for teaching systems administration to high school students. Matt Shilba, one of the teachers involved in the program, presented the proposal to Usenix in October. The MVHS is also funded by the NSF; curricula _will_ eventually be available. SAGE was previously involved in helping to arrange Evi Nemeth's appearance at an MVHS seminar this summer (see http://mhvs1.mbhs.edu/mvhsproj/sage.html). We're always looking for well thought out proposals to fund! If you have ideas, please send them to Helen Harrison (heh@usenix.org), who is the Board liason for Good Works. In other local news, there are more local groups than ever! Recently, the Seattle group received funding to have Randal Schwartz come to speak at their meeting - again, if _your_ local group has a project in mind but is strapped for resources, please send us a proposal! Amy Kreiling (amy@usenix.org) is our Locals liason, and can help. The "Local Groups" section of the SAGE web site (http://www.usenix.org/sage/locals/) has pointers to local groups we know about and other useful documents. Looking forward, we hope to have a short survey out Real Soon asking for, among other things, your opinion on whether SAGE should offer an email forwarding service to its members. I'm sure I'm missing something, but this is long enough. Remember, SAGE is _all_ of us - if there's something you want to see or see fixed, let us know! Better yet, tell us what you want to _do_, and we'll try to help you make it happen. Our mailboxes are never too full to hear from you, so drop us a line at sage-board@usenix.org. For the SAGE Board, Pat Wilson paw@usenix.org From sage-members-owner Thu Nov 27 01:42:23 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA01057 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 01:42:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from craggy.hillside.co.uk (craggy.hillside.co.uk [194.205.42.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA01047 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 01:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from craggy (pc@localhost) by craggy.hillside.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11896 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:38:47 GMT Message-Id: <199711270938.JAA11896@craggy.hillside.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: SAGE logo X-url: http://www.hillside.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:38:46 +0000 From: Peter Collinson Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk In response to several requests, we've put up a logo page so you can pull an official SAGE button and put it onto your web page. See: http://www.usenix.org/sage/faq/button.html There's a USENIX page too. Peter Collinson (USENIX/SAGE Webmaster) From sage-members-owner Tue Dec 2 10:53:37 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA29610 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:53:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cohen@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA29599 for sage-members; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:53:32 -0800 (PST) From: Eileen Cohen Message-Id: <199712021853.KAA29599@usenix.ORG> Subject: Deadline Reminder: RFP for Short Topics Editor To: sage-members Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:53:32 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL26 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This is a reminder that Friday, December 5, is the deadline for proposals for the position of Editor of the Short Topics in System Administration booklet series. Please see the SAGE Web site for details at: http://www.usenix.org/sage/whatsnew/editor.rfp.html From sage-members-owner Tue Dec 2 12:01:10 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04090 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:01:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from macsch.com (draco.macsch.com [192.73.8.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA04081 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:01:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [161.34.1.42] by macsch.com (5.61/MSC-960531) id AA10195; Tue, 2 Dec 97 11:57:31 -0800 Received: from canismajor.is.macsch.com by bootes.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSCbootes.950222) id AA25748; Tue, 2 Dec 97 11:58:51 PST Received: by canismajor.is.macsch.com (4.1/MSC.TW.SunOS.1.02) id AA17833; Tue, 2 Dec 97 11:58:10 PST Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 11:58:10 PST From: todd@macsch.com (Todd Williams) Message-Id: <9712021958.AA17833@canismajor.is.macsch.com> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: need help recovering serial disk Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I hate to bother this list with this, but I'm desperate.... Somebody forget to add one of the filesystems to the backups, and now that disk failed. It's a SERIAL DISK on and IBM RS/6000. It's not an SSA drive, it's the previous serial technology. We sent it to Data OnTrack, but they are having problems dealing with the serial technology. Anybody know anywhere that can attempt a data recovery from a disk of this type? -Todd From sage-members-owner Tue Dec 2 12:56:05 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA07498 for sage-members-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:56:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.nando.net ([152.52.2.139]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA07489 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA11130 for ncsa-announce-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:53:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.nando.net: majordomo set sender to owner-ncsa-announce@nando.net using -f Received: from lamb.sas.com (root@lamb.sas.com [192.35.83.8]) by storm.nando.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11126; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:53:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mozart (markham.southpeak.com [192.35.83.31]) by lamb.sas.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01115; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:58:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ntmail01.pc.sas.com by mozart (5.65c/SAS/Domains/5-6-90) id AA18916; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:58:43 -0500 Received: by ntmail01.pc.sas.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BCFF22.02769CB0@ntmail01.pc.sas.com>; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:58:39 -0500 Message-Id: From: Heather Flanagan To: "'ncsa-announce@nando.net'" Cc: "'ncsa-discussion@nando.net'" Subject: December's NC*SA meeting is cancelled Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:58:36 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk This month's general NC*SA meeting has been cancelled. We will be holding a meeting as usual in January, "same bat time, same bat station". I hope to see lots of folks there, and have the best of holidays! heather flanagan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Heather Flanagan Associate Systems Programmer heflan@unx.sas.com SAS Institute (919)677-8000 x5522 From sage-members-owner Wed Dec 10 02:05:49 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA08933 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:05:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from craggy.hillside.co.uk (craggy.hillside.co.uk [194.205.42.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA08924 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:05:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from craggy (pc@localhost) by craggy.hillside.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18105 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:02:18 GMT Message-Id: <199712101002.KAA18105@craggy.hillside.co.uk> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: SAGE Sysadmin Profile '97 X-url: http://www.hillside.co.uk Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:02:18 +0000 From: Peter Collinson Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The full results from the Survey from LISA '97 are now online.. http://www.usenix.org/sage/jobs/salary_survey/1997 Access to the Survey is limited to members only. To gain access, you need to find your USENIX membership card so you can enter your membership number and password. Peter Collinson From sage-members-owner Wed Dec 10 07:29:33 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA26120 for sage-members-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:29:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from craggy.hillside.co.uk (craggy.hillside.co.uk [194.205.42.1]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26111 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:29:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from craggy (pc@localhost) by craggy.hillside.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18644 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:25:59 GMT Message-Id: <199712101525.PAA18644@craggy.hillside.co.uk> To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: USENIX Membership number and password X-url: http://www.hillside.co.uk Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:25:59 +0000 From: Peter Collinson Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk I guess I've suddenly given you a reason to find your membership card to get its number and its associated password. Please contact office@usenix.org for problems in this area. Once you have it, you can also access the wonderful new ;login: online service too. Peter Collinson From sage-members-owner Thu Dec 11 21:27:59 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA02926 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:27:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from epx.cis.umn.edu (root@epx.cis.umn.edu [128.101.83.4]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA02917 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:27:54 -0800 (PST) From: djb@epx.cis.umn.edu Received: by epx.cis.umn.edu; Thu, 11 Dec 97 23:24:30 -0600 Message-Id: <0013490ca8d022475@epx.cis.umn.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 23:24:30 -0600 To: sage-members@usenix.org Subject: TCSA meeting December 18 Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk The Twin Cities System Administrators (TCSA) group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to system and network administrators in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota. The meetings are free and open to the public. NOTE: Since it is so close to Christmas, the December 18 TCSA meeting is cancelled. Tentative Meeting Schedule January 15, 1998: TBD February 19, 1998: TBD For more information on TCSA, check out our web site: http://www.tcsa.org/ To subscribe to the TCSA mailing list (from a Unix system): echo "subscribe tcsa" | mailx majordomo@tcsa.org For any other information, please send email to: info@tcsa.org or contact: Dave Bianchi (612) 644-7843 -- Dave Bianchi djb@colltech.com Work: 612-957-4532 Collective Technologies djb@epx.cis.umn.edu Pager: 612-957-4532 A Pencom Company Home: 612-644-7843 From sage-members-owner Thu Dec 18 10:27:06 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA11899 for sage-members-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:27:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from yosemite.main.gnac.com (firewall-user@yosemite.main.gnac.com [198.151.248.221]) by usenix.ORG (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA11890 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:27:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by yosemite.main.gnac.com; id KAA20196; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:23:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from tweety.main.gnac.com(192.168.1.20) by yosemite.main.gnac.com via smap (3.2) id xma020191; Thu, 18 Dec 97 10:23:30 -0800 Received: from tweety.main.gnac.com (localhost.main.gnac.com [127.0.0.1]) by tweety.main.gnac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/GNAC-GW-2.1) with ESMTP id KAA08875; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:22:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199712181822.KAA08875@tweety.main.gnac.com> To: baylisa@baylisa.org, sage-members@usenix.org, rem-conf@es.net Cc: bigmac@baylisa.org Subject: BayLISA: Upcoming meeting: Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:22:37 -0800 From: Bryan McDonald Sender: owner-sage-members@usenix.org Precedence: bulk [Appologies if you did not see this before today, there was a lost messages someplace...bigmac.] The BayLISA group meets monthly to discuss topics of interest to systems and network administrators. The meetings are free and open to the public. Please feel free to redistribute this meeting announcement. BayLISA holds monthly meetings on the third Thursday of each month at 7:30 PM PST. We meet at Cisco Building J in San Jose, on Tasman Drive near First street. See www.baylisa.org for more information. The meetings are also broadcast via MBONE. Schedule ======== Thursday, 18 December, 1997, 7:30pm: Short but Cool This will be a collection of short (10-15 minute) talks about various "Cool" topics. Currently, the following talks are scheduled (in no particular order): The latest WebTV box -- Arnold deLeon DHCP -- Greg Kulosa Cisco's LocalDirector -- Hal Pomeranz OpenNT -- Steven Wally Mobile Code Security (Java, JavaScript, ActiveX, etc.) -- Todd A. Radermacher, Digitivity PalmPilots -- Kevin Hood (and perhaps others, but details are unavailable) [Schedule subject to change] For further information on BayLISA, check out our web site: http://www.baylisa.org/ To get further information on the meeting location, you can also ftp it from ftp.baylisa.org:/BayLISA/location For any other information, please send email to: info@baylisa.org If you have any questions, please contact me or the info alias listed above. =============================================================================== Bryan McDonald bigmac@baylisa.org BayLISA http://www.baylisa.org ===============================================================================